Meeting transcript:
speaker: D
text: How many batteries do you go through ?
speaker: B
text: Thank you .
speaker: C
text: Alright .
speaker: A
text: Sure .
speaker: C
text: Good .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: OK so , let 's get started .
speaker: C
text: Nancy said she 's coming
speaker: C
text: and that means she will be .
speaker: C
text: Um . My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week 's adventures uh to start .
speaker: C
text: So everybody knows there were these guys f uh from Heidelber - uh , uh , actually from uh DFKI uh , part of the German SmartKom project , who were here for the week
speaker: C
text: and , I think got a lot done .
speaker: E
text: Yeah , I think so too .
speaker: E
text: Um .
speaker: E
text: The <disfmarker> we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system , and it 'll go all the way through and then say something like " Roman numeral one , am Smarticus . "
speaker: E
text: It actually says , " Roemisch einz , am Smarticus , "
speaker: E
text: which means it 's just using a German sythesis module for English sentences .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: So uh ,
speaker: C
text: It doesn't know " I " .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: Um , the uh
speaker: B
text: Oh ,
speaker: B
text: Am Spartacus . "
speaker: D
text: " I am Sm - I am Smarticus " is what it 's saying .
speaker: B
text: Verstehe .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: D
text: I gue
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: The uh sythesis is just a question of um , hopefully it 's just a question of exchanging a couple of files , once we have them .
speaker: E
text: And , um , it 's not going to be a problem because we decided to stick to the so - called concept to speech approach .
speaker: E
text: So I 'm <disfmarker> I 'm <disfmarker> I 'm going backwards now ,
speaker: E
text: so " synthesis " is where you sort of make this <disfmarker> uh , make these sounds ,
speaker: E
text: and " concept to speech " is feeding into this synthesis module giving it what needs to be said , and the whole syntactic structure
speaker: E
text: so it can pronounce things better , presumably . Then , just with text to speech .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And , uh , Johno learned how to write XML tags .
speaker: E
text: Uh , and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some <disfmarker> some sentences .
speaker: E
text: No ,
speaker: E
text: right ?
speaker: E
text: Yeah , for a couple <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: So . Bu - Uh , i The way the uh , the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know , or what it wants to tell the person , to a <disfmarker> er in XML
speaker: D
text: and there 's a conversion system for different uh , to go from XML to something else .
speaker: D
text: And th so , the knowledge base for the system , that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is uh , in a LISP - like <disfmarker> the knowledge base is in a LISP - like form .
speaker: D
text: And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog .
speaker: D
text: So , you have a <disfmarker> basically , a goal
speaker: D
text: and it , you know , says " OK , well I 'm gonna try to do the Greet - the - person goal ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: so it just starts <disfmarker> uh , it binds some variables and it just decides to , you know , do some subscold .
speaker: D
text: Basically , it just means " build the tree . "
speaker: D
text: And then it passes the tree onto , uh , the ge the generation module .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: But I think that the point is that out of the twelve possible utterances that the German system can do , we 've already written the <disfmarker> the syntax trees for three or four .
speaker: D
text: We
speaker: D
text: yeah .
speaker: D
text: So , the syntax trees are very simple .
speaker: D
text: It 's like most of the sentences in one tree ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: and instead of , you know , breaking down to , like , small units and building back up , they basically took the sentences , and basically cut them in half , or you know , into thirds or something like that , and made trees out of those .
speaker: D
text: And so uh , uh Tilman wrote a little tool that you could take LISP notation and generate an XML , uh , tree . Uh , S what do ca structure from the <disfmarker> from the LISP .
speaker: D
text: And so basically you just say , you know , " noun goes to " , you know ,
speaker: D
text: Er , nah , I don't re I 've never been good at those .
speaker: D
text: So there 's like the VP goes to N and those things in LISP , and it will generate for you .
speaker: B
text: OK . N ,
speaker: B
text: N , V
speaker: B
text: yeah ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Alright .
speaker: E
text: And because we 're sticking to that structure , the synthesis module doesn't need to be changed . So all that f fancy stuff ,
speaker: E
text: and the Texas speech version of it , which is actually the simpler version , is gonna be done in October which is much too late for us .
speaker: E
text: So .
speaker: E
text: This way we <disfmarker> we worked around that .
speaker: E
text: The , uh <disfmarker> the system , um <disfmarker> I can show you the system .
speaker: E
text: I actually want , at least , maybe , you should be able to start it on your own . If you wanna play around with it , in th in the future .
speaker: E
text: Right now it 's brittle and you need to ch start it up and then make ts twenty changes on <disfmarker> on <disfmarker> on <disfmarker> on seventeen modules before they actually can stomach it , anything .
speaker: E
text: And send in a <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> a couple of side queries on some dummy center set - up program so that it actually works
speaker: E
text: because it 's designed for this seevit thing , where you have the gestural recognition running with this s Siemens virtual touch screen , which we don't have here .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And so we 're doing it via mouse ,
speaker: E
text: but the whole system was designed to work with this thing
speaker: E
text: and it was <disfmarker> It was a lot of engineering stuff .
speaker: E
text: No science in there whatsoever ,
speaker: E
text: but it 's working now ,
speaker: E
text: and um , that 's the good news .
speaker: E
text: So everything else actually did prove to be language independent except for the parsing and the generation .
speaker: D
text: Why <disfmarker> I had <disfmarker> I did need to chan generate different trees than the German ones ,
speaker: D
text: mainly because you know like uh , the gerund in <disfmarker> in German is automatically taken care of with just a regular verb ,
speaker: E
text: You have to switch it on .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: so I 'd uh have to add " am walking , "
speaker: D
text: or I 'd have to add a little stem for the " am " , when I build the <disfmarker> built the tree .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , I noticed that um , that some of the examples they had , had you know , non - English word orders and so on ,
speaker: B
text: you know . And then all that good stuff .
speaker: B
text: So .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Alright .
speaker: B
text: Like .
speaker: C
text: So it might be worth , Keith , you looking at this ,
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: um
speaker: D
text: Well Tilman s
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker> I still don't <disfmarker> I still don't really understand e like <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: I mean we sort of say , um <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: You know , I <disfmarker> I still don't exactly understand sort of the information flow uh in <disfmarker> in this thing , or what the modules are and so on .
speaker: B
text: So , you know , like just that such - and - such module uh um decides that it wants to achieve the goal of greeting the user ,
speaker: B
text: and then magically it sort of s
speaker: C
text: Yeah <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out , and all that ?
speaker: C
text: I thi
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So . I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,
speaker: B
text: R uh
speaker: C
text: but sort of when you get free and you have the time uh either Robert or Johno or I can walk you through it .
speaker: B
text: Sure .
speaker: B
text: Yeah ,
speaker: B
text: soon .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: And you can ask all the questions about how this all fits together .
speaker: B
text: That 's fine .
speaker: C
text: It 's eee <comment> messy
speaker: C
text: but once you understand it you understand it .
speaker: C
text: It 's <disfmarker> it 's <disfmarker> There 's nothing really complicated about it .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: No .
speaker: B
text: And I remember one thing that <disfmarker> that came up in the talk last Wednesday . Um , was this ,
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker> I think he talked about the idea of like , um <disfmarker> He was talking about these lexicalized uh , uh , tree adjoining grammars where you sort of <disfmarker> for each word you , um <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: OK , you know how to do it ?
speaker: B
text: For each lexical item , the lexical entry says what all the uh trees are that it can appear in .
speaker: B
text: And of course , that 's not v That 's the opposite of constructional .
speaker: B
text: That 's , you know , that 's <disfmarker> that 's HPSG or whatever .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: You know ?
speaker: C
text: Now , we 're <disfmarker> we 're not committed for our research to <pause> do any of those things .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: So uh we are committed for our funding .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: C
text: to <pause> uh <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Make our stuff fit to that .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , to <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: n no , to just get the dem get the demos they need .
speaker: B
text: Uh - huh .
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: C
text: So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need .
speaker: C
text: If it turns out we can also give them lots more than that by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great .
speaker: D
text: You should probably move the microphone closer to your face .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: But i it turns out not to be in an any of the contracts
speaker: D
text: There 's like a little <disfmarker> The twisty thing , you can move it with .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: and , s deliberately .
speaker: C
text: So , the reason I 'd like you to understand uh what 's going on in this demo system is not because it 's important to the research .
speaker: C
text: It 's just for closure .
speaker: C
text: So that if we come up with a question of " could we fit this deeper stuff in there ? " or something .
speaker: C
text: You know what the hell we we 're talking about fitting in .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So it 's just , uh in the sam same actually with the rest of us
speaker: C
text: we just need to really understand what 's there .
speaker: C
text: Is there anything we can make use of ?
speaker: C
text: Uh , is there anything we can give back , beyond th the sort of minimum requirements ?
speaker: C
text: But none of that has a short time fuse .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So th the demo the demo requirements for this Fall are sort of taken care of as of later this week or something .
speaker: C
text: And then <disfmarker> So , it 's probably fifteen months or something until there 's another serious demo requirement .
speaker: C
text: That doesn't mean we don't think about it for fifteen months ,
speaker: B
text: Oh OK .
speaker: C
text: but it means we can not think about it for six months .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: Right , yeah .
speaker: C
text: So . The plan for this summer uh , really is to step back from the applied project ,
speaker: E
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: keep the d keep the context open , but actually go after the basic issues .
speaker: B
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: Oh OK .
speaker: C
text: And ,
speaker: C
text: so The idea is there 's this uh , other subgroup that 's worrying about formalizing the nota getting a notation .
speaker: C
text: But sort of in parallel with that , uh , the hope is tha in particularly you will work on constructions in English Ge - and German for this domain ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: but y not worry about parsing them or fitting them into SmartKom or any of the other <disfmarker> anything lik any other constraints for the time being .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Got it .
speaker: C
text: It 's hard enough to get it semantically and syntactically right and then <disfmarker> and get the constructions in their form and stuff .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: And , I don I don't want you f feeling that you have to somehow meet all these other constraints .
speaker: B
text: Right , OK .
speaker: C
text: Um . And similarly with the parsing , uh we 're gonna worry about parsing uh , the general case
speaker: C
text: you know , construction parser for general constructions .
speaker: C
text: And , if we need a cut - down version for something , or whatever , we 'll worry about that later .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So I 'd like to , for the summer turn into science mode .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: And I assume that 's also , uh , your plan as well .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: So I mean , the <disfmarker> the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been <disfmarker> sort of been geared towards this demo ,
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: But <disfmarker> but we we 're swit
speaker: B
text: and then that 's going to go away pretty soon .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: And then we 'll sort of shift gears a Fairly substantially ,
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: It 's <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: It 's got .
speaker: B
text: huh ?
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: What I <disfmarker> what I think is <disfmarker> is a good idea that I can <disfmarker> can show to anyone who 's interested ,
speaker: E
text: we can even make a <disfmarker> sort of an internal demo ,
speaker: E
text: and I <disfmarker> I show you what I do ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: I speak into it and you hear it talk ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: and I can sort of walk f through the information .
speaker: E
text: So , this is like in half hour or forty - five minutes .
speaker: E
text: Just fun .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: And so you <disfmarker> when somebody on the streets com comes up to you and asks you what is SmartKom so you can , sort of , give a sensible answer .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So , c sh we could set that up as actually an institute wide thing ?
speaker: C
text: Just give a talk in the big room , and <disfmarker> and so peo people know what 's going on ?
speaker: C
text: when you 're ready ?
speaker: E
text: Absolutely .
speaker: C
text: Yeah I mean , that 's the kind of thing <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: That 's the level at which you know we can just li invite everybody and say " this is a project that we 've been working on and here 's a demo version of it " and stuff like that .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: Well d we <disfmarker> we do wanna have all the bugs out b where you have to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you 're <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Uh - huh .
speaker: C
text: Indeed .
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: Makes sense .
speaker: C
text: But any so that <disfmarker> e e
speaker: C
text: It 's clear , then , I think .
speaker: C
text: Actually , roughly starting uh let 's say , nex next meeting , cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: But uh starting next meeting I think we want to flip into this mode where <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Uh . I mean there are a lot of issues ,
speaker: C
text: what 's the ontology look like ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: you know what do the constructions look like ,
speaker: C
text: what 's the execution engine look like ,
speaker: C
text: mmm lots of things .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: But , more focused on uh an idealized version than just getting the demo out .
speaker: C
text: Now before we do that , let 's get back in <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Oh !
speaker: C
text: But , it 's still , I think , useful for you to understand the demo version enough , so that you can <disfmarker> can see what <disfmarker> what it is that <disfmarker> that uh it might eventually get retro - fitted into or something .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: OK ,
speaker: B
text: right .
speaker: C
text: And Johno 's already done that , uh , looked at the dem uh the <disfmarker> looked at the SmartKom stuff .
speaker: D
text: Wa
speaker: D
text: uh <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: To some de
speaker: D
text: uh what <disfmarker> what part of th the SmartKom stuff ?
speaker: C
text: Well , the parser , and that stuff .
speaker: D
text: Oh yeah <disfmarker> yeah .
speaker: C
text: OK . Anyway .
speaker: C
text: So , the trip <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: the report on these <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: It 's alright .
speaker: E
text: Um . <vocalsound> Well it was just amazing to <disfmarker> to see uh how <disfmarker> how instable the whole thing is ,
speaker: C
text: Maybe you 're done , then .
speaker: E
text: and if you just take the <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: And I g I got the feeling that we are <pause> the only ones right now who have a running system .
speaker: E
text: I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running
speaker: E
text: because
speaker: E
text: e the version <disfmarker> that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work .
speaker: E
text: And you need to do a lot of stuff to make it work .
speaker: E
text: And so it 's <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version " .
speaker: E
text: So we 're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now ,
speaker: E
text: the system <disfmarker> the integration group .
speaker: E
text: And it was , uh <disfmarker> It was fun to some extent ,
speaker: E
text: but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientific interest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: um , I know that they enjoyed it here ,
speaker: E
text: and they r they <disfmarker> they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here ,
speaker: E
text: what <disfmarker> what we have been thinking about ,
speaker: E
text: and they 're more than willing to <disfmarker> to um , cooperate , by all means .
speaker: E
text: And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML ,
speaker: E
text: make that open to all of us and them ,
speaker: E
text: so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and <disfmarker> and generating and constructions w we <disfmarker> we sort of uh put it in there
speaker: E
text: and they put what they do in there
speaker: E
text: and maybe we can even um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that .
speaker: E
text: And um ,
speaker: E
text: the , uh <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: If I find someone at <disfmarker> in EML that is interested in that , um I <disfmarker> I may even think that we could look <disfmarker> take constructions and <disfmarker> and generate from them
speaker: E
text: because the tree adjoining grammars that <disfmarker> that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism .
speaker: E
text: And you can just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction .
speaker: E
text: So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interest there ,
speaker: E
text: but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline .
speaker: C
text: Anyth - any other <vocalsound> <comment> uh repo visit reports sort of stories ?
speaker: C
text: uh we <disfmarker> so we now know I think , what the landscape is like .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: And so we just push on and <disfmarker> and uh , do what we need to do .
speaker: C
text: And one of the things we need to do is the um , and this I think is relatively tight <disfmarker> tightly constrained , is to finish up this belief - net stuff .
speaker: C
text: So .
speaker: C
text: Uh . And I was going to switch to start talking about that unless there 're m other more general questions .
speaker: C
text: OK so here 's where we are on the belief - net stuff as far as I understand it .
speaker: C
text: Um . Going back I guess two weeks ago uh Robert had laid out this belief - net , missing only the connections .
speaker: C
text: Right ?
speaker: C
text: That is <disfmarker> <comment> So , he 'd put all th all the dots down ,
speaker: C
text: and we went through this , and , I think , more or less convinced ourselves that at least the vast majority of the nodes that we needed for the demo level we were thinking of , were in there .
speaker: C
text: Yeah <comment> we may run across one or two more .
speaker: C
text: But of course the connections weren't .
speaker: C
text: So , uh Bhaskara and I went off and looked at some technical questions about were certain operations sort of legitimate belief - net computations and was there some known problem with them or had someone already uh , solved you know how to do this and stuff .
speaker: C
text: And so Bhaskara tracked that down .
speaker: C
text: The answer seems to be uh , " no , no one has done it , but yes it 's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if that 's what you set out to do " .
speaker: C
text: And , so the current state of things is that , again , starting now , um we 'd like to actually get a running belief - net for this particular subdomain done in the next few weeks .
speaker: C
text: So Bhaskara is switching projects as of the first of June ,
speaker: C
text: and uh , he 's gonna leave us an inheritance , which is a uh <disfmarker> hopefully a belief - net that does these things .
speaker: C
text: And there 're two aspects to it , one of which is , you know , technical ,
speaker: C
text: getting the coding right , and making it run , and uh stuff like that .
speaker: C
text: And the other is the actual semantics .
speaker: C
text: OK ? What all <disfmarker> you know , what are the considerations and how and what are the ways in which they relate .
speaker: C
text: So he doe h he doesn't need help from this group on the technical aspects or if he does uh we 'll do that separately .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: But in terms of what are the decisions and stuff like that , that 's something that we all have to work out .
speaker: C
text: Is <disfmarker> is that right ?
speaker: C
text: I mean that 's <disfmarker> that 's both you guys ' understanding of where we are ?
speaker: E
text: Absolutely .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: G
text: So , I guess , um <disfmarker> Is there like a latest version of the belief - net <disfmarker> of the proposed belief - net ?
speaker: G
text: Like <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: We had um decided <disfmarker>
speaker: G
text: like <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Um . Well , no , we didn't decide .
speaker: E
text: We wanted to look into maybe getting it , the visualization , a bit clearer ,
speaker: E
text: but I think if we do it , um , sort of a paper version of all the nodes and then the connections between them , that should suffice .
speaker: G
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: G
text: Yeah ,
speaker: G
text: that should be fine .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , I <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah I mean , that 's a separate problem .
speaker: C
text: We do in the long run wanna do better visualization and all that stuff .
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: That 's separable ,
speaker: C
text: yeah .
speaker: D
text: I did look into that , uh in terms of , you know , exploding the nodes out and down ag
speaker: C
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: D
text: JavaBayes does not support that .
speaker: D
text: I can imagine a way of hacking at the code to do that .
speaker: D
text: It 'd probably take two weeks or so to actually go through and do it ,
speaker: C
text: Not <disfmarker> not at this point .
speaker: D
text: and I went through all the other packages on Murph - Kevin Murphy 's page ,
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: D
text: and I couldn't find the necessary mix of free and uh with the GUI and , with this thing that we want .
speaker: C
text: Well , we can p If it 's <disfmarker> If we can pay <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah . If you know it 's paying a thousand dollars or something we can do that .
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker> so don't view free as <disfmarker> as a absolute constraint .
speaker: D
text: OK , so then I 'll go back and look at the ones on the list that <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: G
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: But <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: And you can ask Kevin .
speaker: G
text: Yeah , the one that uh people seem to use is uh Hugin or whatever ?
speaker: D
text: Mmm .
speaker: E
text: But <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Hugin ,
speaker: C
text: yeah that 's free .
speaker: G
text: How exp
speaker: G
text: I don't think it 's <disfmarker>
speaker: G
text: Is it free ?
speaker: G
text: Because I 've seen it advertised in places so I <disfmarker> it seems to <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Uh , it may be free to academics .
speaker: C
text: Like I <disfmarker> I don't know .
speaker: C
text: I have a co <comment> I have a copy <comment> that I l I downloaded .
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So , at one point it was free .
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Uh but yo I noticed people do use Hugin
speaker: C
text: so um ,
speaker: D
text: How do you spell that ?
speaker: F
text: Why
speaker: C
text: HUGIN .
speaker: C
text: And Bhaskara can give you a pointer .
speaker: C
text: So then , in any case , um <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: But paying a lit
speaker: C
text: You know , if i if it 's uh <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Probably for university , it 's <disfmarker> it 's gonna be real cheap anyway .
speaker: C
text: But um , you know , if it 's fifty thousand dollars we aren't gonna do it .
speaker: C
text: I 'm mean , we have no need for that .
speaker: E
text: I <disfmarker> I also s would suggest not to d spend two weeks in <disfmarker> in <disfmarker> in changing the <disfmarker> the JavaBayes code .
speaker: C
text: No ,
speaker: C
text: he 's not gonna do that .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: I <disfmarker> I will send you a pointer to a Java applet that does that ,
speaker: E
text: it 's sort of a fish - eye .
speaker: E
text: You <disfmarker> you have a node , and you click on it , and it shows you all the connections ,
speaker: E
text: and then if you click on something else that moves away , that goes into the middle .
speaker: D
text: Mmm .
speaker: E
text: And maybe there is an easy way of interfacing those two .
speaker: E
text: If that doesn't work , it 's not a problem we <disfmarker> we need to solve right now .
speaker: E
text: What I 'm <disfmarker> what my job is , I will , um , give you the input in terms of <disfmarker> of the internal structure .
speaker: E
text: Maybe node by node , or something like this ?
speaker: E
text: Or should I collect it all
speaker: G
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: and <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Doesn't matter .
speaker: G
text: Um , just any like <disfmarker> like sort of rough representation of the entire belief - net is probably best .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: And um you 're gonna be around ? t again , always Tuesdays and Thursdays afternoon - ish ? As usual ?
speaker: G
text: Yeah <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Or will that change ?
speaker: G
text: I mean , yeah ,
speaker: G
text: I can <disfmarker> like I c
speaker: G
text: Um . This week I guess um , kind of <disfmarker> I have a lot of projects and stuff but after that I will generally be more free .
speaker: G
text: So yes , I might <disfmarker> I can be around .
speaker: G
text: And g I mean , generally if you email me also I can be around on other days .
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Yeah and this is not a crisis that <disfmarker> I mean , you do , e everybody who 's a student should , you know do their work , get their c courses all in good shape
speaker: C
text: and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and then we 'll dig <disfmarker> d dig down on this .
speaker: E
text: Yeah , that 's <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: No , that 's good .
speaker: E
text: That means I have I h I can spend this week doing it .
speaker: E
text: So .
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: How do you go about this process of deciding what these connections are ?
speaker: B
text: I know that there 's an issue of how to weight the different things too , and stuff .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: Right ?
speaker: B
text: I mean do you just sort of guess and see if it sort of <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Well there <disfmarker> there <disfmarker> there There 're two different things you do .
speaker: E
text: It 's <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: One is you design and the other is you learn .
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: C
text: So uh what we 're gonna do initially is <disfmarker> is do design , and , i if you will , guess .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Uh that is you know use your best knowledge of <disfmarker> of the domain to uh , hypothesize what the dependencies are and stuff .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: If it 's done right , and if you have data then , there are techniques for learning the numbers given the structure
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: and there are even techniques for learning the structure , although that takes a lot more data ,
speaker: C
text: and it 's not as @ @ and so forth and so on .
speaker: C
text: So uh
speaker: C
text: but for the limited amount of stuff we have for this particular exercise I think we 'll just design it .
speaker: B
text: Alright .
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: Fo - Hopefully as time passes we 'll get more and more data from Heidelberg and from people actually using it and stuff .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: So but this is the <pause> <vocalsound> <comment> <pause> long run .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: But to solve our problems ag uh a mediocre design will do I think in the beginning .
speaker: B
text: Yeah ,
speaker: B
text: that 's right .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , oh , and by the way , speaking of data , um , are there
speaker: B
text: I could swore <disfmarker> uh , I could swear I saw it sitting on someone 's desk at some point ,
speaker: B
text: but is there a <disfmarker> um a transcript of any of the , sort of , initial interactions of people with the <disfmarker> with the system ?
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: Cuz you know , I 'm still sort of itching to <disfmarker> to look at what <disfmarker> look at the stuff , and see what people are saying .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah make yourself a note .
speaker: C
text: So and <disfmarker> and , of course Keith would like the German as well as the English ,
speaker: C
text: so whatever you guys can get .
speaker: E
text: The German .
speaker: E
text: Oh yeah , of course , German .
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , the y your native language ,
speaker: C
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: You remember that one .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: That 's important , yeah .
speaker: C
text: So he 'll get you some data .
speaker: B
text: Yeah ,
speaker: B
text: u OK .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , I mean I <disfmarker> I sort of um found the uh , uh the audio of some of those ,
speaker: E
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: and um , it kind of sounded like I didn't want to trudge through that , you know .
speaker: B
text: It was just <disfmarker> Strange ,
speaker: B
text: but .
speaker: C
text: Yep .
speaker: E
text: We probably will not get those to describe because they were trial runs .
speaker: B
text: Oh yeah ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: Um , but uh that 's th but we have data in English and German already .
speaker: E
text: So . <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: OK ,
speaker: B
text: yeah , I mean .
speaker: E
text: Transcribed .
speaker: E
text: I will send you that .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: OK ,
speaker: C
text: so while we 're still at this sort of top level , anything else that we oughta talk about today ?
speaker: E
text: Ho - how was your thingy .
speaker: B
text: Oh , um , I just wanted to , uh , s like mention as an issue , um , you know last meeting I wasn't here
speaker: B
text: because I went to a linguistics colloquium on the fictive motion stuff ,
speaker: C
text: Oh right .
speaker: B
text: and that was pretty interesting
speaker: B
text: and you know , I mean ,
speaker: B
text: seems to me that that will fairly obviously be of relevance to uh <disfmarker> to what we 're doing here
speaker: B
text: because you know people are likely to give descriptions
speaker: B
text: like you know , " What 's that thing uh right where you start to go up the hill , " or something like that ,
speaker: B
text: you know , meaning a few feet up the hill or whatever from some reference point and all that stuff
speaker: B
text: so I mean , I 'm sure in terms of you know , people trying to state locations or , you know , all that kind of stuff , this is gonna be very relevant .
speaker: B
text: So ,
speaker: B
text: um , now that was <disfmarker> the talk was about English versus Japanese , um , which obviously the Japanese doesn't affect us directly , except that , um , some of the construction <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: he 'd <disfmarker> what he talked about was that you know in English we say things like th you know , " your bike is parked across the street "
speaker: B
text: and we use these prepositional phrases , you know , " well , if you were to move across the street you would be at the bike " ,
speaker: B
text: but um in <disfmarker> in Japanese the <disfmarker> the more conventionalized tendency is to use a <disfmarker> sort of a description of " where one has crossed to the river , there is a tree " .
speaker: B
text: Um , and you know , you can actually say things like , um , " there 's a tree where one has crossed the river , but no one has ever crossed the river " , or something like that .
speaker: B
text: So the idea is that this really is you know that 's supposed show that 's it 's really fictive and so on .
speaker: B
text: But um <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: But the point is that that kind of construction is also used in English , you know , like " right where you start to go up the hill " , or " just when you get off the train " , or something like that to <disfmarker> uh , to indicate where something is .
speaker: C
text: Mmm .
speaker: B
text: So we 'll have to think about <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: how much is that used in German ?
speaker: E
text: Um . The uh <disfmarker> Well <disfmarker> I wa I was on a uh <disfmarker> on a <disfmarker> on a different sidetrack .
speaker: E
text: I mean , the <disfmarker> the Deep Map project which um is undergoing some renovation at <disfmarker> at the moment ,
speaker: C
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: E
text: but this is a <disfmarker> a three language project : German , English , Japanese .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: And um , we have a uh , uh <disfmarker> I have taken care that we have the <disfmarker> the Japanese generation and stuff .
speaker: E
text: And so I looked into uh spatial description .
speaker: E
text: So we can generate spatial descriptions , how to get from A to B . And <disfmarker> and information on objects , in German , English , and Japanese .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And there is a huge uh project on spatial descriptions uh <disfmarker> differences in spatial descriptions .
speaker: E
text: Well , if yo if you 're interested in that ,
speaker: E
text: so how <disfmarker> how ,
speaker: E
text: I mean it does sort of go d all the way down to the conceptual level to some extent .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: So .
speaker: E
text: Um .
speaker: C
text: So , where is this huge project ?
speaker: E
text: It 's KLEIST .
speaker: E
text: It 's the uh Bielefeld generation of uh spatial descriptions and whatever .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: Well , that may be another thing that Keith wants to look at .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: But um , I <disfmarker> I think we should leave Japanese constructions maybe outside of the scope for <disfmarker> for now ,
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: but um definitely it 's interesting to look at <disfmarker> at cross the bordered there .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: A
text: Are <disfmarker> are you going to p pay any attention to the relative position <disfmarker> of <disfmarker> of the direction relative <disfmarker> relative to the speaker ?
speaker: A
text: For example , there are some differences between Hebrew and English .
speaker: A
text: We can say um " park in front of the car " as you come beh you drive behind the car .
speaker: A
text: In Hebrew it means " park behind the car " , because to follow the car is defined as it faces you .
speaker: E
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: Intrinsic ,
speaker: E
text: yeah .
speaker: A
text: While in English , front of the car is the absolute front of the car .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Right , so the canonical direction of motion determines where the front is .
speaker: A
text: So .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: A
text: So , i i i is German uh closer to <disfmarker> to E uh , uh , uh , uh <disfmarker> to E I mean uh
speaker: E
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: A
text: I don't think it <disfmarker> it 's related to syntax , though , so it may be entirely different .
speaker: E
text: Um , as a matter of fact <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: No , it 's not .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: Um . Did you ever get to look at the <disfmarker> the rou paper that I sent you on the <disfmarker> on that problem in English and German ?
speaker: B
text: I think <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Carroll , ninety - three .
speaker: E
text: Um . I <disfmarker> There is a <disfmarker> a study on the differences between English and German on exactly that problem .
speaker: A
text: Hmm .
speaker: E
text: So it 's <disfmarker> they actually say " the monkey in front of the car ,
speaker: E
text: where 's the monkey ? "
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And , um , they found statistically very significant differences in English and German ,
speaker: E
text: so I <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> I <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: It might be , since there are only a finite number of ways of doing it , that <disfmarker> that German might be more like Hebrew in that respect .
speaker: E
text: The solution they proposed was that it was due to syntactic factors .
speaker: B
text: Hmm .
speaker: A
text: That <disfmarker> but it wasn't <disfmarker> was <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: That syntactic facto factors do <disfmarker> do play a role there , wh whether you 're more likely , you know , to develop uh , choices that lead you towards using uh intrinsic versus extrinsic reference frames .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: A
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: I mean , it seems to me that you can get both in <disfmarker> in English depending o
speaker: B
text: You know , like , " in front of the car " could you know <disfmarker> Like ,
speaker: B
text: here 's the car sideways to me in between me and the car or something 's in front of the car , or whatever .
speaker: B
text: I could see that ,
speaker: C
text: Absolutely .
speaker: B
text: but <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: But anyway , so you know , I mean , this was <disfmarker> this was a <disfmarker> a very good talk on those kinds of issues and so on .
speaker: B
text: So uh .
speaker: E
text: I can also give you uh , a pointer to a paper of mine which is the <disfmarker> the ultimate taxonomy of reference frames .
speaker: B
text: Alright !
speaker: E
text: So .
speaker: B
text: Cool !
speaker: E
text: I 'm the only person in the world who actually knows how it works .
speaker: C
text: Oh .
speaker: C
text: Oh .
speaker: E
text: Not really .
speaker: C
text: Great .
speaker: C
text: No , I 've not seen that .
speaker: E
text: It 's called a <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: What do you mean . Um . " reference frames " ?
speaker: A
text: uh uh
speaker: E
text: It 's <disfmarker> it 's spatial reference frames .
speaker: E
text: You actually have only <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Um . If you wanna have a <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: This is usually um <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: I should <disfmarker> there should be an " L " , though .
speaker: E
text: Well actually you have <disfmarker> only have two choices .
speaker: E
text: You can either do a two - point or a three - point
speaker: E
text: which is you You 're familiar with th with the " origo " ?
speaker: E
text: where that 's the center <disfmarker> " Origo " is the center of the f frame of reference .
speaker: E
text: And then you have the reference object and the object to be localized .
speaker: B
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: Hmm .
speaker: E
text: OK ?
speaker: A
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: In some cases the origo is the same as the reference object .
speaker: F
text: This was like <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So that would be " origin " in English ,
speaker: B
text: The origin .
speaker: C
text: right ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Right
speaker: E
text: " Origo " is a Terminus technikus . in that sense ,
speaker: E
text: that 's even used in the English literature .
speaker: E
text: " Origo . "
speaker: B
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: C
text: Alright .
speaker: B
text: I never heard it .
speaker: A
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: And um , so ,
speaker: E
text: this video tape is in front of me .
speaker: E
text: I 'm the origo and I 'm also the reference object .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: Those are two - point .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And three - point relations is if something has an intrinsic front side like this chair then your f shoe is behind the chair .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And , reference object and <disfmarker> Um . No , from <disfmarker> from my point of view your shoe is left of the chair .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: You <disfmarker> you can actually say things like , um , " it 's behind the tree from me " or something like that , I think , in <disfmarker> in <disfmarker> in certain circumstances in English ,
speaker: B
text: right ?
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: As sort of " from where I 'm standing it would appear that " <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: So ,
speaker: F
text: Looks a little bit like Reichenbach for time .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , it sounds like it ,
speaker: C
text: doesn't it ,
speaker: F
text: It 's a lot like it .
speaker: C
text: yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: And then <disfmarker> and then here you <disfmarker>
speaker: F
text: Um .
speaker: E
text: On this scale , you have it either be ego or allocentric .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: E
text: And that 's <comment> <disfmarker> that 's basically it .
speaker: E
text: So . Egocentric two - point , egocentric three - point , or you can have allocentric .
speaker: E
text: So , " as seen from the church , the town hall is right of that um , fire station " .
speaker: B
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: E
text: aa - huh <comment> It 's hardly ever used but it 's w
speaker: A
text: I 'd love to see it if you <disfmarker> if you have a copy kind of .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: I see this is <disfmarker> this is getting into Ami 's thing .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Uh .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: He 's <disfmarker> he 's very interested in that .
speaker: A
text: Here
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So .
speaker: C
text: Uh . Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Me too .
speaker: C
text: Well , why don't you just put it on the web page ?
speaker: C
text: There 's this EDU <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Right ?
speaker: E
text: Yeah
speaker: E
text: it 's <disfmarker> or <disfmarker> or just <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: It 's also all on my <disfmarker> my home page at EML .
speaker: C
text: Or a link to it .
speaker: E
text: It 's called " An Anatomy of a Spatial Description " .
speaker: C
text: Just
speaker: E
text: But I 'll send that link .
speaker: A
text: OK , great .
speaker: C
text: Maybe just put a link on .
speaker: E
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: By the way , there <disfmarker> something that I didn't know until about a week ago or so , is apparently , there are separate brain areas for things within reach , and things that are out of reach .
speaker: C
text: So there 's <disfmarker> there 's uh all this linguistic stuff about you know , near and far , or yon and <disfmarker> and so forth .
speaker: B
text: Huh .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: So this is all <disfmarker> This is <disfmarker> There 's this linguistic facts .
speaker: C
text: But apparently , the <disfmarker> Uh . Here 's the way the findings go .
speaker: C
text: That , you know they do MRI , and <disfmarker> and if you 're uh <disfmarker> got something within reach then there 's one of your areas lights up ,
speaker: C
text: and if something 's out of reach uh a different one .
speaker: C
text: But here 's the <disfmarker> the amazing result , um , they say .
speaker: C
text: You get someone with a <disfmarker> with a deficit so that they have a perfectly normal ability at distance things .
speaker: C
text: So the s typical task is subdivision .
speaker: C
text: So there 's a <disfmarker> a line on the wall over there , and you give them a laser pointer , and you say , " Where 's the midpoint ? "
speaker: C
text: And they do fine .
speaker: C
text: If you give them the line , and they have to touch it ,
speaker: C
text: they can't .
speaker: C
text: There 's just that part of the brain isn't functioning , so they can't do that .
speaker: C
text: Here 's the real experiment .
speaker: C
text: The same thing on the wall , you give them a laser , " where is it ? " ,
speaker: C
text: they do it .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: Give them a stick , long stick , and say " do it " ,
speaker: C
text: they can't do it .
speaker: C
text: So there 's a remapping of distant space into nearby space .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: A
text: So they doubled <disfmarker>
speaker: F
text: Because it 's within reach now ?
speaker: A
text: the <disfmarker> the end <disfmarker> the end of this <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: It 's not within reach and you use the Within - Reach uh , mechanism .
speaker: B
text: Yeah ,
speaker: F
text: Oh . Wow .
speaker: B
text: yeah .
speaker: B
text: Circuits .
speaker: C
text: So I 'll d I 'll dig you up this reference .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: B
text: That 's cool .
speaker: C
text: And so this doe This is , uh <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: First of all , it explains something that I 've always wondered about
speaker: C
text: and I 'll do this <disfmarker> this test on you guys as well .
speaker: C
text: So .
speaker: C
text: Uh . How - I have had an experience , not often , but a certain number of times , when , for example , I 'm working with a tool , a screwdriver or something , for a long time , I start feeling the tip directly .
speaker: C
text: Not indirectly ,
speaker: C
text: but you actually can feel the tip .
speaker: B
text: Yeah
speaker: B
text: yeah .
speaker: C
text: And people who are uh accomplished violinists and stuff like that , claim they also have this kind of thing where you get a direct sensation of , physical sensation , of the end affector .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: What 's going on at the end of the tool ,
speaker: B
text: yeah .
speaker: A
text: The ext the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> The extension ,
speaker: C
text: Huh ?
speaker: B
text: What 's going on at the end of the tool , or whatever .
speaker: C
text: Yeah ,
speaker: C
text: within <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: right .
speaker: C
text: Huh ?
speaker: A
text: The extension of <disfmarker> of your hand , right .
speaker: C
text: Yeah ,
speaker: C
text: right .
speaker: C
text: Have you hav y h had this ?
speaker: A
text: The <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: I <disfmarker> I think so .
speaker: A
text: I mean i i it 's not exactly the th same thing , but <disfmarker> but s it <disfmarker> it <disfmarker> it 's getting close to that .
speaker: F
text: W what does it feel like ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Oh i it feels like your <disfmarker> as if your uh neurons had extended themselves out to this tool , and you 're feeling forces on it and so forth
speaker: C
text: and <disfmarker> and you deal directly with it .
speaker: A
text: I once <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> I was playing you know with those um uh devices that allow you to manipulate objects when it 's dangerous to get close ?
speaker: C
text: Right , yeah <disfmarker> yeah <disfmarker> yeah .
speaker: B
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: A
text: So you can insert your hand something
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: and there 's a correspondence between <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: So I played with it .
speaker: A
text: After a while , you don't feel the difference anymore .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , right .
speaker: A
text: I <disfmarker> I mean it 's kind of <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: A
text: Very <disfmarker> kind of <disfmarker> you stop back and suddenly it goes away
speaker: A
text: and you have to kind of work again to recapture it , but yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Right ,
speaker: C
text: Yeah , so anyway , so <disfmarker> So this was the first actual experimental evidence I 'd seen that was consistent with this anecdotal stuff .
speaker: B
text: That 's cool .
speaker: C
text: And of course it makes a lovely def uh story about why languages uh , make this distinction .
speaker: C
text: Of course there are behavioral differences too .
speaker: C
text: Things you can reach are really quite different than things you can't .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: But there seems to be an actu really deep embodied neural difference .
speaker: C
text: And i this is , um <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So . In addition to the e
speaker: E
text: This is more proximal - distal .
speaker: C
text: Yeah uh exactly .
speaker: C
text: So in addition to e ego and allocentric uh which appear all over the place , you also apparently have this proximal - distal thing which is very deeply uh embedded .
speaker: C
text: S
speaker: E
text: Well , Dan Montello sort of ,
speaker: E
text: he <disfmarker> he does the uh uh <disfmarker> th the cognitive map world , down in Santa Barbara .
speaker: E
text: And he <disfmarker> he always talks about these <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: He <disfmarker> he already <disfmarker> well <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: i probably most likely without knowing this <disfmarker> this evidence uh is talking about these small scale spaces that you can manipulate versus large scale environmental spaces .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Well there 's <disfmarker> there 's uh been a lot of behavioral things o on this , but that was the first neur neuro - physiological thing I saw .
speaker: C
text: Anyway yeah , so we 'll <disfmarker> we 'll look at this .
speaker: C
text: And . So , all of these issues now <disfmarker> are now starting to come up .
speaker: C
text: So , now <disfmarker> we 're now done with demos .
speaker: C
text: We 're starting to do science ,
speaker: C
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: And so these issues about uh , reference , and <disfmarker> spatial <comment> reference , discourse reference , uh - uh - uh - uh <comment> all this sort of stuff , uh , deixis which is part of what you were talking about ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: um <disfmarker> So , all of this stuff is coming up essentially starting now .
speaker: C
text: So we gotta do all this .
speaker: C
text: So there 's that .
speaker: C
text: And then there 's also a set of system things that come up .
speaker: C
text: So " OK , we 're not using their system . That means we need our system . "
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: Right ?
speaker: C
text: It <disfmarker> it follows .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: And so , uh , in addition to the business about just getting the linguistics right , and the formalism and stuff , we 're actually gonna build something
speaker: C
text: and uh , Johno is point person on the parser , analyzer , whatever that is ,
speaker: C
text: and we 're gonna start on that in parallel with the um , the grammar stuff .
speaker: C
text: But to do that we 're gonna need to make some decisions like ontology ,
speaker: B
text: Alright .
speaker: C
text: so , um <disfmarker> And so this is another thing where we 're gonna , you know , have to get involved and make s relatively early I think , make some decisions on uh , " is there an ontology API that <disfmarker> that " <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: There 's a sort of standard way of getting things from ontologies
speaker: C
text: and we build the parser and stuff around that ,
speaker: C
text: or is there a particular ontology that we 're gonna standardize on , and if so <disfmarker> For example , is there something that we can use there .
speaker: C
text: i Does uh either the uh SmartKom project or one of the projects at EML have something that we can just p pull out , for that .
speaker: C
text: Uh , so there are gonna be some <disfmarker> some <disfmarker> some things like that , which are not science but system .
speaker: C
text: But we aren't gonna ignore those
speaker: C
text: cuz we 're <disfmarker> we 're not only going <disfmarker> The plan is not only to lay out this thing , but to actually uh build some of it .
speaker: C
text: And how much we build , and <disfmarker> and so forth .
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Uh . Part of it , if it works right , is wh
speaker: C
text: It looks like we 're now in a position that the construction analyzer that we want for this applied project can be the same as the construction analyzer that Nancy needs for the child language modeling .
speaker: C
text: So . It 's always been out of phase
speaker: C
text: but it now seems that um , there 's a good shot at that .
speaker: C
text: So we 've talked about it ,
speaker: C
text: and the hope is that we can make these things the same thing ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: and of course it 's only w In both cases it 's only one piece of a bigger system .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: But it would be nice if that piece were exactly the same piece .
speaker: C
text: It was just this uh construction analyzer .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: And so we think <disfmarker> we think we have a shot at <disfmarker> at that .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So . The for
speaker: C
text: So .
speaker: C
text: To <disfmarker> to come full circle on that , this formalization task ,
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: C
text: is trying to get the formalism into <disfmarker> into a shape where it can actually uh
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Be of use to someone who 's trying to do this ,
speaker: B
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: d Well , yeah ,
speaker: C
text: where it actually is <disfmarker> is <disfmarker> covers the whole range of things .
speaker: C
text: And the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> the thing that got Mark into the worst trouble is he had a very ambitious thing he was trying to do ,
speaker: C
text: and he insisted on trying to do it with a limited set of mechanisms .
speaker: C
text: It turned out , inherently not to cover the space .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: And it just <disfmarker> it was just terribly frustrating for him ,
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: and he seemed fully committed to both sides of this i i irreconcilable thing .
speaker: B
text: I see .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: And .
speaker: C
text: Uh . Johno is much more pragmatic .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Uh . Huh ?
speaker: B
text: Good to know .
speaker: C
text: Is <disfmarker> This is true ,
speaker: C
text: is it not ?
speaker: D
text: Yes .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So there 's you know sort of , yeah , deep , really deep , emotional commitment to a certain theory being uh , complete .
speaker: B
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: F
text: You don't have a hidden purist streak ?
speaker: D
text: Oh no .
speaker: F
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: We - well it hasn't it <disfmarker> it certainly hasn't been observed , in any case .
speaker: F
text: Just checking .
speaker: D
text: No sir .
speaker: B
text: Alright .
speaker: C
text: Um . Now , you do , but that 's OK .
speaker: C
text: Uh . So . For <disfmarker> for <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Cuz I don't have to implement anything .
speaker: C
text: Exactly right .
speaker: F
text: I have a problem , then .
speaker: C
text: Exactly .
speaker: F
text: It 's <disfmarker> So . Whether I do depends on whether I 'm talking to him or him probably .
speaker: A
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , right .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: F
text: Which meeting I 'm in .
speaker: C
text: Why <disfmarker> a actually , uh , the thing is , you <disfmarker> you do but , th the thing you have to im implement is so small that <disfmarker> Uh .
speaker: F
text: It 's OK to be purist within that context .
speaker: C
text: Within that ,
speaker: F
text: Yes ,
speaker: C
text: yeah ,
speaker: F
text: good .
speaker: C
text: and uh , it 's <disfmarker> a and still , I think , you know , get something done .
speaker: B
text: Cool !
speaker: C
text: But to try to do something upscale and purist Particularly if <disfmarker> if um what you 're purist about doesn't actually work , <vocalsound> is real hard .
speaker: F
text: Yay .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: And then the other thing is while we 're doing this uh Robert 's gonna pick a piece of this space ,
speaker: A
text: It 's possible yeah .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: OK ,
speaker: C
text: uh , for his absentee thesis .
speaker: C
text: I think you all know that <disfmarker> that you can just , in Germany <disfmarker> almost just send in your thesis .
speaker: B
text: Just a drive up .
speaker: B
text: Ca - chuk !
speaker: C
text: Yeah right .
speaker: A
text: Um
speaker: B
text: There you go .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: The - th There <disfmarker> there 's a drive - in thesis uh sh <vocalsound> joint over in Saarbruecken .
speaker: B
text: Exactly .
speaker: B
text: Drive through , yeah .
speaker: C
text: It costs a lot .
speaker: C
text: The <disfmarker> the amount <disfmarker> You put in your credit card and <disfmarker> <vocalsound> as well .
speaker: C
text: But , uh , <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: But anyway ,
speaker: C
text: so , uh , that 's um , also gotta be worked out , hopefully over the next few weeks ,
speaker: C
text: so that <disfmarker> that it becomes clear uh , what piece uh , Robert wants to jump into .
speaker: C
text: And , while we 're at this level , uh , there 's at least one new doctoral student in computer science who will be joining the project , either next week or the first of August , depending on the blandishments of Microsoft .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So , de Uh . And her name is Eva .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: It really is .
speaker: C
text: Nobody believed th th that <disfmarker>
speaker: F
text: Yeah , I thought it had to be a joke , of your part , you know
speaker: F
text: like <disfmarker> <comment> " Johno made it up ,
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: F
text: I 'm sure . "
speaker: G
text: Is this person someone who 's in first - year this year ,
speaker: C
text: No , first year coming .
speaker: G
text: or
speaker: C
text: So , she 's <disfmarker> she 's now out here
speaker: C
text: she 's moved ,
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: and she 'll be a student as of then .
speaker: C
text: And probably she 'll pick up from you on the belief - net stuff ,
speaker: C
text: so sh she 'll be chasing you down and stuff like that .
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: Document .
speaker: C
text: Uh .
speaker: G
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Uh , against all traditions .
speaker: C
text: And actually I talked today to a uh undergraduate who wants to do an honors thesis on this .
speaker: C
text: Uh <disfmarker>
speaker: F
text: Someone from the class ?
speaker: C
text: No ,
speaker: C
text: interestingly enough .
speaker: F
text: We always get these people who are not in the class , who <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Some of th some of them , yeah .
speaker: F
text: It 's interesting .
speaker: C
text: So anyway ,
speaker: C
text: uh , but uh she 's another one of these ones with a three point nine average and so forth and so on .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: Uh , so , um , I 've give I 've given her some things to read .
speaker: C
text: So we 'll see how this goes .
speaker: C
text: Oh there 's yet another one of the incoming first <disfmarker> <comment> incoming first - year graduate students who 's expressed interest ,
speaker: C
text: so we 'll see how that goes .
speaker: C
text: Um ,
speaker: C
text: anyway ,
speaker: C
text: so , I think as far as this group goes , um , it 's certainly worth continuing for the next few weeks to get closure on the uh belief - net and the ideas that are involved in that , and what are th what are the concepts .
speaker: C
text: We 'll see whether it 's gonna make sense to have this be separate from the other bigger effort with the formalization stuff or not ,
speaker: C
text: I 'm not sure .
speaker: C
text: It partly depends on w what your thesis turns out to be and how that goes .
speaker: C
text: S so , we 'll see .
speaker: C
text: And then , Ami , you can decide , you know , how much time you wanna put into it
speaker: C
text: and uh , it it 's beginning to take shap shape ,
speaker: A
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: so uh and ,
speaker: A
text: Right
speaker: C
text: I think you will find that if you want to look technically at some of the <disfmarker> your traditional questions in this light , uh Keith , who 's buil building constructions , will be quite happy to uh see what , you know , you envision as the issues and the problems and um , how they might uh get reflected in constructions .
speaker: B
text: Sure .
speaker: C
text: I suspect that 's right .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: I <disfmarker> I may have to go to Switzerland for <disfmarker> in June or beginning of July for between two weeks and four weeks , but uh , after that or before that .
speaker: C
text: OK ,
speaker: C
text: fine .
speaker: C
text: And , um , if it 's useful we can probably arrange for you to drop by and visit either at Heidelberg or at the German AI center , while you 're in <disfmarker> in the neighborhood .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: A
text: Yeah be uh
speaker: A
text: actu actually I 'm invited to do some consulting with a bank in Geneva which has an affiliation with a research institute in Geneva , which I forgot the name of .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: E o do y
speaker: C
text: Well , we we 're connected to uh <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: There 's a <disfmarker> there 's a <disfmarker> a very significant connection between <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: We 'll <disfmarker> we 'll go through this ,
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: ICSI and EPFL , which is the , uh <disfmarker> It 's the <disfmarker> Fr
speaker: C
text: Ge - Germany 's got two big technical institutes .
speaker: C
text: There 's one in <disfmarker> in Zurich ,
speaker: A
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: E T
speaker: C
text: and then there 's one , the French speaking one , in Lausanne ,
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: B
text: Oh , so in Switzerland .
speaker: C
text: which is uh E P
speaker: C
text: F L . So find out who they are associated with in Geneva .
speaker: A
text: Great .
speaker: C
text: Probably we 're connected to them .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: A
text: Great .
speaker: A
text: I 'll let you know .
speaker: A
text: S I 'll send you email .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Yeah ,
speaker: C
text: and so anyway we c uh <disfmarker> We can m undoubtedly get Ami uh to give a talk at uh EML or something like that . While he 's in <disfmarker> in uh <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: Hmm .
speaker: E
text: Uh . I <disfmarker> I think the one you <disfmarker> you gave here a couple of weeks ago would be of interest there , too .
speaker: A
text: Sure , yeah .
speaker: C
text: A lot of interest . Actually , either place , DFKI or uh <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah , so , and <disfmarker> and if there is a book , that you 'll be building up some audience for it .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: And you 'll get feedback from these guys .
speaker: A
text: Great , yeah .
speaker: C
text: Cuz they 've actually <disfmarker> these DFKI guys have done as much as anyone over the last decade in trying to build them .
speaker: C
text: So we 'll set that up .
speaker: A
text: Cool .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So , uh , unless we wanna start digging into the <disfmarker> uh the belief - net and the decisions now , which would be fine , it 's probably <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: I <disfmarker> I tho
speaker: E
text: It 's probably better if I come next week with the um version O point nine of the structure .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: So , how about if you two guys between now and next week come up with something that is partially proposal , and partially questions ,
speaker: C
text: saying " here 's what we think we understand , here are the things we think we don't understand " .
speaker: C
text: And that we as a group will try to <disfmarker> to finish it .
speaker: C
text: What I 'd like to do is shoot f for finishing all this next Monday .
speaker: G
text: Sure .
speaker: C
text: OK ?
speaker: C
text: Uh , " these are the decisions " <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: I don't think we 're gonna get lots more information .
speaker: C
text: It 's a design problem .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: G
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: You know . We <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: And let 's come up with a first cut at what this should look like . And then finish it up .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Does that so make sense ?
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: E
text: And um , the <disfmarker> the sem semester will be over next week but then you have projects for one more week to come ?
speaker: G
text: No , I <disfmarker> I think I 'll be done <disfmarker> everything by this uh <disfmarker> by the end of this week .
speaker: E
text: Same with you ?
speaker: E
text: No .
speaker: D
text: Nnn .
speaker: D
text: This <disfmarker> Well , I 've <disfmarker> I have projects , but then the <disfmarker> my prof professor of one of my classes also wa has a final that he 's giving us .
speaker: D
text: And he 's giving us five days to do it which means it going to be hard .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Oh . is it a take - home final ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Who 's doing this ?
speaker: D
text: Aikin , Alex , yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , figured .
speaker: C
text: That would have been i my guess .
speaker: G
text: Hmm .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Um , But anyway , yeah .
speaker: B
text: Pretty soon .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: OK , so I guess that 's
speaker: D
text: So , the seventeenth will definitely be the last day , like it or not for me .
speaker: C
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: right .
speaker: C
text: So let 's do this ,
speaker: C
text: and then we we well there 's gonna be some separate co
speaker: C
text: these guys are talking ,
speaker: C
text: uh we have a group on the formalization ,
speaker: C
text: uh Nancy and Johno and I are gonna talk about parsers .
speaker: C
text: So there 're various kinds of uh <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Of course , nothing gets done even in a meeting of seven people ,
speaker: C
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: So , um , two or three people is the size in which actual work gets done .
speaker: B
text: Right .
speaker: E
text: Mmm .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So we 'll do that .
speaker: C
text: Great .
speaker: C
text: Oh , the other thing we wanna do is catch up with uh , Ellen and see what she 's doing
speaker: C
text: because the um image schemas are going to be um , an important pa
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Quite relevant , yeah .
speaker: C
text: We <disfmarker> we want those ,
speaker: C
text: right ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah ,
speaker: C
text: And we want them formalized and stuff like that .
speaker: B
text: oh yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So let me <disfmarker> let me make a note to do that .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , I 'm actually probably going to be in contact with her uh pretty soon anyway because of various of us students were going to have a reading group about precisely that sort of thing over the summer ,
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Oh right !
speaker: C
text: Right right right !
speaker: C
text: That 's great !
speaker: B
text: so .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , I <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> Shweta mentioned that , although she said it 's a secret .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: Hi
speaker: B
text: Right ,
speaker: C
text: Th - the faculty aren't <disfmarker> faculty aren't supposed to know .
speaker: B
text: no faculty !
speaker: D
text: Wednesday 's much better for me , yeah .
speaker: C
text: But um ,
speaker: C
text: I 'm sufficiently clueless that I count as a <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Yeah , right .
speaker: B
text: It 's as if we didn't tell anyone at all ,
speaker: D
text: Bhaskara .
speaker: B
text: right .

Meeting summary:
text: The translation of SmartKom to english is in its final stages.
text: The synthesis module will be the last one to do, after the english syntax trees are completed.
text: The system is still buggy and unstable, but it will soon be ready for a demonstration.
text: This is the first of two working demos required for the project.
text: Further than that, there are no restrictions on the focus of the research or its possible applications.
text: For example, issues like spatial descriptions could be investigated.
text: The variety of linguistic conventions seem to develop around an ego/allo-centric and a proximal/distal paradigm.
text: The latter is also reflected in neuro-physiological data.
text: From an engineering perspective, the belief-net for the AVE task should be completed within a few weeks.
text: The majority of the nodes are already there.
text: This leaves the dependencies between them and the rules of computation to be set.
text: Since the whole system is going to be re-designed, there are major decisions to be taken regarding the parser and the ontology, as well as what can be re-used from past EML projects.
text: In parallel, another team is working on formalisation and notation.
text: Finally, more ideas are expected to come from students and their research.
text: The final english SmartKom demo will be presented to the whole institute once the system is de-bugged and stabilised.
text: After the demo, the focus of research can switch towards purely scientific goals, including issues on ontology, deep semantic constructions, execution engines etc.
text: Moreover, a new system will be designed for the project and at least some parts of it should be built.
text: Similarly, the construction analyser should be a single, general tool working for both the tourist domain and child language modelling.
text: The focus for the next meeting will be on the belief-net, of which a working demo should be complete in the next few weeks.
text: Since there are not enough data, its connections and weights will have to be designed.
text: Although JavaBayes has been the tool of choice until now, the possibility that Hugin could be a better option should be investigated.
text: In order to promote the collaboration with EML, the group-ware server there will be updated with all progress being made in the two sites.
text: A talk on some of the issues will also be organised to take place at DFKI.
text: The german SmartKom version available on the server does not work.
text: The english version, although still under development, does work, however, the system is still unstable as -apart from other reasons- it was initially built to work with a touch screen.
text: De-bugging and cleaning up has to take place before any new modules are added on it.
text: As regards the belief-net, no connections and dependencies have been built into it.
text: These will have to be guessed instead of learnt through data, as not enough data is available for such a task.
text: Finally, it has been noted that the JavaBayes GUI does not satisfy all the presentation requirements for this belief-net and modifying the underlying code would be too time-consuming.
text: The german SmartKom system has been translated to English up to the speech synthesis level.
text: The german syntax trees are currently being adapted to English.
text: These also contribute information to the synthesis module in order to achieve better pronunciation.
text: The current english version is probably the best working one, since some of the problems with the original system have been corrected.
text: The design of the belief-net has also progressed significantly: the vast majority of the nodes have been identified and the feasibility of the task from a technical point of view has been confirmed.