Meeting transcript:
speaker: F
text: OK ,
speaker: F
text: so we should be on .
speaker: D
text: So
speaker: F
text: And I 'm gonna go ahead and start by reading the digit strings ,
speaker: F
text: just to give you an example of how to do it .
speaker: F
text: And so the first thing to do is read the transcript number
speaker: F
text: which is <nonvocalsound> on the right hand side there .
speaker: F
text: And so if you could just go around the table
speaker: F
text: and read them out .
speaker: G
text: OK ,
speaker: G
text: should I next ?
speaker: F
text: Yep
speaker: F
text: If you could sign that ?
speaker: F
text: Thanks .
speaker: F
text: Thanks
speaker: F
text: So , I wanted to just era it reiterate cuz we did have have one person come in a little later that , um there will be an opportunity to remove anything from the transcript that you don't want made public after it 's transcribed ,
speaker: F
text: so that 'll be some months off ,
speaker: F
text: but you will have that opportunity
speaker: F
text: OK ?
speaker: F
text: Thanks .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: Thanks Adam .
speaker: D
text: We could start with our meeting ?
speaker: F
text: Yep !
speaker: D
text: Yep !
speaker: F
text: Thanks very much .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: You have to stay all the time here ?
speaker: F
text: I don't have to
speaker: F
text: Um .
speaker: D
text: But ch you wanna do ?
speaker: F
text: Well <disfmarker>
speaker: F
text: It 's just <disfmarker> At the end of the meeting , don't turn off the mikes
speaker: F
text: just leave them on .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: F
text: And uh
speaker: F
text: Uh .
speaker: F
text: Actually could y actually , could you call me , At the end of the meeting ?
speaker: F
text: I 'll leave my number on the board there
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: F
text: Thanks .
speaker: D
text: We can do that .
speaker: G
text: Hey , Adam , you know what ?
speaker: G
text: It must be funny to do an a research on how people <pause> behave while <pause> reading these numbers .
speaker: F
text: Numbers are strange !
speaker: G
text: That must be <disfmarker>
speaker: F
text: It is !
speaker: G
text: Yeah !
speaker: G
text: It must be much more interesting to <disfmarker> to see their behavior .
speaker: F
text: the <disfmarker> the meetings are strange .
speaker: G
text: Oh y yeah !
speaker: F
text: People interrupt each other much more than I thought they did .
speaker: D
text: Two nine seven seven ?
speaker: D
text: Right .
speaker: F
text: two nine seven seven .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: I will call you then .
speaker: F
text: Thanks .
speaker: D
text: Uh , OK .
speaker: D
text: So , then let 's start with <pause> our weekly meeting .
speaker: D
text: The last time 's uh we learned too much , I believe ,
speaker: D
text: so
speaker: D
text: uh , today , I have two topics .
speaker: D
text: And the first topic , um , we have a new member in our group ,
speaker: D
text: Miguel Sanchez .
speaker: D
text: I believe everybody knows him very well in the meantime because he stayed here quite a little time
speaker: B
text: Hi .
speaker: D
text: and I think he is talking to everybody in the meantime .
speaker: D
text: So , but , anyway , I would like that Miguel Sanchez will introduce himself a little bit , concerning his background , what he intend to do .
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker> <pause> Because I discussing with him uh , uh many things concerning , uh , his skills and what the <pause> NSA group intends to do .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: I hope there will be a match , uh , then , for his future work .
speaker: D
text: And the second topic is then <pause> to discuss a proposal in <pause> much more detail .
speaker: D
text: I believe <pause> we still haven't left our starting position .
speaker: D
text: And , um , yesterday I also discussed with Wilbert some things
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> I would like to focus on the question <comment> " What problem we are going to solve with such a proposal . "
speaker: D
text: Not so will they have a common activity within the group itself and maybe with other partners outside ,
speaker: D
text: but , the technical problem .
speaker: D
text: But that 's under the s second topic ,
speaker: D
text: so first I would like that Miguel will told us a little bit about his skills and <disfmarker> and uh his background .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: OK ,
speaker: B
text: thank you Joe .
speaker: D
text: So , please .
speaker: B
text: Well , I , uh , as all of you know I came from <disfmarker> from Spain ,
speaker: B
text: from the uh <pause> Polytechnic University of Valencia
speaker: B
text: and i uh <pause> I um , just finished my PHD thesis about uh <pause> um power - saving <pause> techniques for wireless networking .
speaker: B
text: uh , In fact , I have developed an algorithm to control the ra radio frequency power uh of a wireless transceiver .
speaker: B
text: And , uh <pause> I 've been working <disfmarker> also in routing issues , especially in the so - called ad - hoc netw wireless networks .
speaker: B
text: Where uh , you have a set of , uh , mobile nodes and , no other infrastructure ,
speaker: B
text: no base stations .
speaker: B
text: So all the routing functions are done by the node <disfmarker> by the same nodes .
speaker: B
text: OK ?
speaker: B
text: So , nodes act as both end points and routers .
speaker: B
text: eh
speaker: B
text: I 've in the study for some time these kind of networks .
speaker: B
text: And , uh , in fact , there are a lot of <disfmarker> of <disfmarker> research uh articles about this <disfmarker> this kind of networks because You know , uh , mmm infrastructure - based network <disfmarker> network has been a long topic of research .
speaker: B
text: So ,
speaker: B
text: for example , routing on <disfmarker> on wired networks is a <disfmarker> a topic still to be researched
speaker: B
text: but it has an important background .
speaker: B
text: But mobile network this kind of mobile networks is a little bit <disfmarker> uh newer ,
speaker: B
text: especially because uh , until not so long uh , the <disfmarker> the things were too heavy to have a computer , a wireless transceiver , on a more or less portable thing .
speaker: B
text: So , with the advent of this new technology , low power uh , high , uh , processing capability and wireless <disfmarker> eh <disfmarker> networking capability , in a really small package , new kind of devices are <disfmarker> are being built and are appearing , in the market .
speaker: B
text: And , eh , well this is more or less what I have done .
speaker: B
text: And the kind of , uh , things , I 'm interested is more or less all , around this <disfmarker> these <pause> kind of networks .
speaker: B
text: But I could say , uh in general , mobile service is not only about , uh these specific kind of networks .
speaker: B
text: But , in general , about , uh services uh over mobile or services that can benefit from the <disfmarker> uh , capability of nodes to move around .
speaker: B
text: And , uh , well , I <disfmarker> I 've been teaching now for twelve years , comp eh At a computer sciences school in my university ,
speaker: B
text: I 've been teaching computer networks .
speaker: B
text: And , well , I am <disfmarker> more or less uh , knowledgable about , well , TCP IP networking , ISO uh , networking ,
speaker: B
text: and , uh
speaker: B
text: well I 'm <disfmarker> I 'm a computer guy ,
speaker: B
text: so I 'm really <disfmarker> um Well , I can say uh , proudly uh , more or less , computer skilled .
speaker: B
text: I mean , uh , operating systems uh , programming languages uh , networking @ @ .
speaker: B
text: So this kind of things I think I 'm more or less well - trained .
speaker: B
text: So
speaker: B
text: this is , I think , um , my first presentation .
speaker: B
text: Next <disfmarker> maybe next meeting I will uh , do a small sketch about uh , my past work , and <disfmarker> well , presenting some det a little bit more detailed approach with some schemes and <disfmarker> and some things from previous talks , so you can have a better idea of w the kind of work I 've been doing .
speaker: B
text: OK ?
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: Thank you .
speaker: D
text: So , thanks , Miguel .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , we m discussed it yesterday that you 'll maybe <disfmarker> will have a talk <pause> next Tuesday
speaker: B
text: Y
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: But , Give me a sign and send me an abstract so that I can announce it , then , for the next meeting .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: That 's OK .
speaker: D
text: Um .
speaker: D
text: One short other topic is Uh . Claudia did a lot of work concerning the web pages in the meantime .
speaker: G
text: Oh ,
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: And , despite <vocalsound> busy stuff with waivers and uh <vocalsound> and visas and whatever , uh , she found the time to um <pause> write , with what we discussed before and in <comment> the form of HTML stuff .
speaker: D
text: And we wanna put it on the <pause> web pages in the next days .
speaker: D
text: So , I will send an email , then , to everybody that they should check their web pages whether they 're aligned with , um , their own views and opinions of what we should <disfmarker> what should be presented on the web pages .
speaker: D
text: And any feedback is then , well appreciated .
speaker: D
text: No ?
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: Let 's switch to the project proposal .
speaker: D
text: Um , I mentioned that it is still f
speaker: G
text: Ah .
speaker: G
text: Sorry .
speaker: G
text: Can I ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah ?
speaker: G
text: Maybe I can add something .
speaker: D
text: Claudia <disfmarker>
speaker: G
text: Yeah , if there 's anything else which we <disfmarker> what we could add on the web site .
speaker: G
text: So , p For example , if you have a small abstract or some pictures or whatever , about the work you did before , what you are planning to do here , that would be fine ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: G
text: cuz now we can add some more <pause> stuff there .
speaker: G
text: Or if you have something <disfmarker> or if somebody has some slides , o or articles , whatever he wants to be <pause> published there .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Then everybody sees the structure , <disfmarker> how it is uh , structured <disfmarker> really structured .
speaker: G
text: Yeah
speaker: G
text: and
speaker: D
text: Then <pause> maybe you wi can easy offer some additional input which should be presented , then , on the web pages .
speaker: G
text: Yeah , it depends what <disfmarker> what everybody wants to do .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: G
text: So
speaker: G
text: about the projects will be something ,
speaker: G
text: then , about publications will be another point ,
speaker: G
text: and <disfmarker> Yeah , additional information about how is life in Berkeley and i Yep . I don't know , <pause> some <disfmarker> some hints , some web sites or links which are useful when somebody arrives or stuff like that .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , it is .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Half collection of necessary information .
speaker: E
text: But there 's no personal homepage for everybody ?
speaker: E
text: Or , <pause> is it planned or not ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah su You can have <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: or <disfmarker> ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah , you can have it .
speaker: D
text: Because , as uh <disfmarker> Uh , uh , le
speaker: E
text: I 'm not interested in this .
speaker: E
text: That makes work .
speaker: D
text: No ,
speaker: D
text: but this is <disfmarker> oh , uh <disfmarker> Everybody 's obliged to do it for his own , you know .
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: So there is not uh <disfmarker> Claudia is not the webmaster here to , uh , <vocalsound> <pause> get the collection for <disfmarker> for <disfmarker> for everything .
speaker: E
text: OK .
speaker: G
text: Oh , oh , no , I 'm not doing it for everybody
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: G
text: but what I can <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: This is responsible for <disfmarker> uh , everybody 's responsible for his own ,
speaker: D
text: yeah .
speaker: G
text: Yeah , but <disfmarker> but what is planned is that I do something like a previous , you know , layout , and give everybody the , uh , opin uh , the possibility to <disfmarker> the chance to put his <pause> content inside
speaker: E
text: Sure .
speaker: E
text: OK ,
speaker: E
text: his name and so on .
speaker: G
text: so that the layout is for everybody the same ,
speaker: E
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Well , like have a <pause> blueprint .
speaker: G
text: so about the projects and stuff .
speaker: E
text: OK
speaker: E
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: G
text: So , there will be something .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: OK ,
speaker: D
text: thanks .
speaker: D
text: So ,
speaker: D
text: let 's switch to the proposal .
speaker: D
text: I ask everybody whether <pause> read it in the meantime , and understand everything .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Everybody say yes ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah ?
speaker: E
text: Yes .
speaker: D
text: Yes ,
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: Um .
speaker: D
text: From my point of view , As I mentioned before , we still in the starting position .
speaker: D
text: I think the four building blocks on the network level will have really a major impact on <disfmarker> on f current um , available wireless networks and , uh , also for future generations .
speaker: D
text: And , what the missing thing is really what kind of problem we are <disfmarker> wan wanna s solve with such a project proposal .
speaker: D
text: And Wilbert yesterday mentioned , and he is right , <comment> <vocalsound> that , what kind of , maybe , service we are really going to offer .
speaker: D
text: The linkage between such kind of application , also interactive multimedia application and , uh , this kind of networking stuff is , um , maybe not very well aligned ,
speaker: D
text: because there will be of course , a portion of mobile access to such kind of application .
speaker: D
text: But , I think that 's not the majority
speaker: D
text: and that is not the major focus of um this kind of <disfmarker> um <pause> this kind of application anyway .
speaker: D
text: So I would like to <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> uh split , in principle , the discussions of <pause> what kind of application tsk <comment> um f far away
speaker: D
text: and I would like to <disfmarker> more to focus if we have certain kind of vision t concerning these building blocks and the network , Um , What kind of problem we are going to solve .
speaker: D
text: What kind of , uh , um , um , glue between these four building blocks exists
speaker: D
text: and what kind of synergy effects , in principle , as if they work and fit very well together exists for networking stuff .
speaker: D
text: And what kind of service could we provide <pause> in that area .
speaker: D
text: We will have these kind of , uh , really closely working together of these four building blocks .
speaker: D
text: So maybe uh , Wilbert , you can start to discu oder to <disfmarker> to tell the group about what you mentioned yesterday concerning certain kind of ideas .
speaker: D
text: Maybe it 's a brainstorming um , of <disfmarker> of these things
speaker: D
text: and maybe we can comment later on th these <disfmarker> uh these ideas .
speaker: D
text: And I saw you sk still discuss with <disfmarker> with <disfmarker> uh <disfmarker> Mark , right ?
speaker: D
text: some stuff .
speaker: D
text: Was it also related with <disfmarker> with these things .
speaker: C
text: No .
speaker: D
text: No ?
speaker: D
text: OK , It was @ @ .
speaker: C
text: This afternoon you mean ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: No , this was <pause> unrelated to <disfmarker> to the things of yesterday and last weeks
speaker: D
text: OK
speaker: D
text: Yeah , yeah .
speaker: D
text: Then , maybe then , one <disfmarker> one w uh sentence before .
speaker: C
text: wha
speaker: D
text: I believe everybody fits very well in these kind of things .
speaker: D
text: Because from the mathematical description with QS - in - Advance , me , as an expert for quality of service and , uh , Michael as an expert for uh , MPLS and Wilbert an expert for <disfmarker> for Multicast , and , uh , I discussed with Miguel . It 's uh maybe a little bit the shift to active routing ,
speaker: D
text: but it is still in the area of routing .
speaker: D
text: So . My idea is , in principle , to have , independently of any funding , independently of any outer contact , such <disfmarker> such a <disfmarker> core activity , in principle .
speaker: D
text: And we can see how much from the outer world can fit in .
speaker: D
text: First of all , the first stage is the institution which is behind everybody .
speaker: D
text: That means uh KPN in your case and Siemens in our case .
speaker: D
text: And maybe , then , in the broader world here other partners registered in the proposal migh
speaker: D
text: Tomorrow , I will go to Cisco , for instance ,
speaker: D
text: and I will discuss uh , all this kind of things .
speaker: D
text: Maybe they have certain additional activities and they 're interested in the results before <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: The benefit here is , in principle , that the results are available .
speaker: D
text: They are not restricted any way .
speaker: D
text: If you have your own common activity . That makes a little bit more easier .
speaker: D
text: And , uh , if there is a technical linkage between such , uh um , between the outer world and us OK , the better it is .
speaker: D
text: But , anyway , if we come to a certain kind of <pause> uh , common work within the core of the NSA group , I think that 's really beneficial to everybody .
speaker: D
text: And <pause> uh , especially , Wilbert , if you have in mind to go in the <comment> mmm , uh , really from the project proposal view , I think we can build it on this <disfmarker> this core .
speaker: D
text: You know ,
speaker: D
text: and go to the outer world with , and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and align it in a certain way .
speaker: D
text: For instance , that it also fit , maybe , to KPN , and Siemens , and in other companies .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , and <disfmarker> <vocalsound> This probably has to be a brainstorm <comment> right now .
speaker: D
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: Um <pause> What I told Joachim yesterday was that , uh uh for my company <disfmarker> the company I work for , they are more interested in <disfmarker> in an explicit service , than in core technology .
speaker: C
text: u
speaker: C
text: Me , on the other hand , I 'm more interested in uh , core service , or c core technology , myself .
speaker: C
text: So I 'm u I was thinking about <pause> uh , how I could combine the both of them .
speaker: C
text: KPN was , um <disfmarker> they 're interested in having , uh like , six people or something , working on the project for one year
speaker: C
text: or maybe , uh , three people fo working on the project for two years ,
speaker: C
text: and have a kind of a demonstration uh , for a specifically in UMTS service .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: I was thinking that um as a <disfmarker> well , not really a UMTS service , but <disfmarker> <pause> yesterday , what I discussed with Joachim was uh , a w little bit based on your ad - hoc networking also .
speaker: C
text: That it would be interesting to have a kind of a device where you can switch from w a WaveLAN Technology to , um , UMTS .
speaker: C
text: I think that 's , uh , it 's in <disfmarker> in the future that will be a main competitor of , uh , of UMTS ,
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: too , like the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> <pause> the Lucent , uh , equipment has a l huge scope already ,
speaker: C
text: like five hundred feet , or <disfmarker> or even more sometimes .
speaker: C
text: so that 's <disfmarker> it 's might be interesting for , a service to walk into a building or whatever is available on that network .
speaker: C
text: You can switch from UMTS or uh uh , to WaveLAN Technologies .
speaker: D
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Uh , maybe I will write a few keywords on the <disfmarker> on the whiteboard
speaker: C
text: Sure .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: Of course , it sounds strange for a company that does UMTS to switch <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> to be able to switch or provide the service to switch to WaveLAN
speaker: C
text: but at the end it makes it easier for your <disfmarker> and cheaper for your customers .
speaker: C
text: So , if they don't do it , somebody else will probably do it .
speaker: B
text: And you can build a <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> <vocalsound> an <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> a double technology adapter , too .
speaker: B
text: So you can market these double - technology adapters .
speaker: B
text: And , this can be a <disfmarker> a potential uh um you know , uh , income , too .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Because you just have to license , uh uh WaveLAN technology .
speaker: B
text: You can build , uh , the whole thing .
speaker: C
text: Yeah ,
speaker: B
text: This U - UMTS WaveLAN , uh mixed together .
speaker: C
text: and <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah , something like that could be possible ,
speaker: C
text: maybe even a UMTS - to - WaveLAN - gateway ,
speaker: C
text: or <disfmarker> I 'm not sure if that 's possible like we U - if UMTS re contains redirects or whatever , like switches .
speaker: C
text: I 'm not sure about it .
speaker: C
text: It could be .
speaker: B
text: Mmm .
speaker: B
text: I think , they are using different , uh , radio technologies .
speaker: B
text: So , <pause> uh , at the physical level , they 're <disfmarker> they 're <disfmarker> they are not compatible .
speaker: C
text: It 's not a problem .
speaker: C
text: No , but s You could have a UMTS gateway that translates everything to that uh w local @ @ .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: If you will
speaker: B
text: That <disfmarker> that 's right .
speaker: D
text: Yet the basic idea is , in principle , to switch seamlessly between wireless <pause> LAN technology , whatever and <pause> UMTS ,
speaker: D
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: Yes .
speaker: D
text: And <pause> you see the benefit that , in principle , the customer will save a lot of money .
speaker: D
text: Because if <pause> in - house communication like WaveLAN or maybe I see it also in the American market , some WaveLAN communication in the outer world will be available , the <disfmarker> m and that is your assumption , that the more cost uh extensive um U M T S connection could be principle used , I would like to say , over WaveLAN ,
speaker: D
text: and then I have a normal WaveLAN connection , right ?
speaker: C
text: Yes .
speaker: D
text: And the router and the WaveLAN connection goes into the core internet elsewhere
speaker: D
text: and the connection is not dropped between this seamless hand off I would like to say .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Right ?
speaker: D
text: or what <disfmarker> or <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Well ,
speaker: C
text: If <pause> connection is lost , I am <disfmarker> I 'm not sure if sometimes you 'd simply have to drop a connection . If you have outstanding connections .
speaker: D
text: What <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: But that 's uh one thing of the internet ,
speaker: C
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: It 's <pause> should be able to unplug a host , bring it somewhere else and everything continues like it should be .
speaker: C
text: I 'm not sure i if it 's uh <pause> if you really have to con uh save a connection for all applications ,
speaker: C
text: I <disfmarker> I don't think so .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but if this is the final goal ,
speaker: D
text: it should be as much as possible available that you do not have to break the connection if you switch between the subnets ' technology
speaker: D
text: Right ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah but I <disfmarker> I have a point uh regarding the <disfmarker> this question , is eh the cost function .
speaker: B
text: I mean .
speaker: B
text: uh
speaker: B
text: What about the user who is switching from one <disfmarker> let 's say <disfmarker> zero - cost area network to another <pause> network where he has to pay .
speaker: B
text: It is OK <pause> for the service to continue when he uh switches from one network to another .
speaker: B
text: But probably , the user wants to be aware that he 's switching from one place <disfmarker> from one network to another .
speaker: B
text: Because maybe , <vocalsound> while he 's uh having , let 's say , a <pause> vide video conference uh over the <disfmarker> the WaveLAN oh he 's not paying any extra cost .
speaker: B
text: But when he continues with this service on the UMTS , he 's having to cover uh an important <disfmarker> let 's say , an important cost <disfmarker> or some cost , non - null cost .
speaker: D
text: Yeah ,
speaker: D
text: non - null
speaker: B
text: So <pause> uh
speaker: B
text: this can be something that probably the user wants to be aware of .
speaker: B
text: Of course , this doesn't mean that the user wants the connection to be dropped when he switches . to the w uh <disfmarker> r uh from the zero - cost area network to <disfmarker> to the <disfmarker> uh um non - null cost area network .
speaker: B
text: But maybe some users want to do this .
speaker: B
text: Because they say " OK <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: I 'm not willing to pay any back for this service ,
speaker: B
text: because I 'm just watching <pause> uh you know the sports news .
speaker: B
text: So , if I switch <disfmarker> If <disfmarker> if , because of my motion , I 'm switching , or I 'm going out of the coverage of the <disfmarker> of the uh wave <disfmarker> uh wireless uh local area network , well , I <disfmarker> I want the service to be uh stopped . "
speaker: B
text: And this can be some pattern then that <pause> some users will follow .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but if your s
speaker: D
text: uh I believe everybody is aware about the USAIA architecture .
speaker: D
text: And uh this one is , here , <disfmarker> this stuff is , here , also related to this kind what is mentioned there concerning the end system .
speaker: D
text: And in my conf uh considered end system , there is a certain kind of policy , concerning how to use subnets technologies and <disfmarker> and all these kind of things .
speaker: D
text: How to use quality of service , you know , in advance ,
speaker: D
text: because you have to pay for certain technologies and maybe for certain services .
speaker: D
text: And that should not be done automatically .
speaker: D
text: But it could be done automatically .
speaker: D
text: But nevertheless there must be a certain kind of um user interaction always possible , that you could set up a certain kind of mini - database how to deal with all these kind of things .
speaker: D
text: I think that 's not a problem .
speaker: D
text: But uh what I <disfmarker> I would like to ask Wilbert here , and we discuss it yesterday , " Is it only the usage of that PCMCIA card where you have <disfmarker> instead of GSM today , UMTS , and instead of wireless LAN today also wireless LAN .
speaker: D
text: Remember your four and one <pause> card uh concerning um ,
speaker: D
text: what is the name , from Dataco - ?
speaker: D
text: No .
speaker: D
text: Dacom
speaker: C
text: Oh , the one I have Sitcom ?
speaker: D
text: Where you can enable four technologies , and you plug in , in your laptop
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: and then you have every four uh subnet layer technologies available in your laptop .
speaker: D
text: Is that the problem ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah , that 's not the problem .
speaker: D
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Um .
speaker: C
text: Well , the switching itself could be a problem .
speaker: D
text: Why ?
speaker: C
text: Becau - well it 's a depends
speaker: C
text: if one of the other networks is available , maybe you are ,
speaker: C
text: I don't know .
speaker: C
text: So that could be a t topic for research ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but this i
speaker: C
text: so maybe you know more about it .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but this is th only the probing to figure out that you get at a certain location the information that a s certain coverage of a certain subnet techn technology is available .
speaker: D
text: And if so , then what Miguel mentions , then you add a certain kind of policy , to switch <pause> or not to switch , to this kind of technology ,
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: right ?
speaker: C
text: Y Yes .
speaker: D
text: But this is end - system related .
speaker: D
text: That 's not network related .
speaker: D
text: I see no network related stuff within these <disfmarker> in this uh idea .
speaker: C
text: Um .
speaker: D
text: It 's only to set up i u
speaker: D
text: For me it 's like a laptop t to plug one PCMCIA <disfmarker> and currently will have two PCMCIA cards , and I compare GSM with UMTS .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: And today I would like to have GSM ,
speaker: D
text: and then I have my GSM connectivity .
speaker: D
text: And I cannot use it <pause> other technology ,
speaker: D
text: only GSM , because the interfaces , the driver interface , does not permit me to switch between the <disfmarker> between different technologies .
speaker: D
text: So if I want to go to wireless LAN I have to stop my connection and put in my wireless LAN PCMCIA card ,
speaker: D
text: and then I can go on and set up the <disfmarker> the same connection one more time .
speaker: D
text: And what you have in mind , to do it a bit more seamlessly , and that makes an only sense for me if both technologies , in principle , were close together in that sense for application .
speaker: D
text: For instance , the application would be that I have my laptop here ,
speaker: D
text: and I work here with <disfmarker> wi with my device ,
speaker: D
text: any kind of device ,
speaker: D
text: and I work here in wireless LAN area .
speaker: D
text: And then I go outside , and <pause> want to go still on , leaving the coverage of <disfmarker> uh of the <disfmarker> uh wireless LAN .
speaker: D
text: And at a certain state , the device uh receives certain signals that the coverage of UMTS or GSM is available .
speaker: D
text: And at that state , you automatically , or based on the certain kind of user profile , switched to the um UMTS <comment> or GSM st uh network .
speaker: D
text: That 's the only senseful application .
speaker: D
text: From my understanding , that means only to have a certain kind of control layer for the different drivers ,
speaker: D
text: which you also mentioned as a USAIA architecture .
speaker: D
text: and uh then to do the <pause> switching for an existing stream or application between these <disfmarker> uh , transparently to this application , between those uh these both technologies .
speaker: D
text: Maybe there 's more potential .
speaker: D
text: I don't s see it ,
speaker: D
text: but maybe you have a additional idea .
speaker: D
text: And I don't think that this <pause> end system device uh architecture , which will come automatically .
speaker: D
text: And I believe there 's a lot of activity throughout the world ,
speaker: D
text: because this seamlessly communication is always mentioned elsewhere where you cou where you listen to .
speaker: D
text: So
speaker: D
text: uh <pause> uh
speaker: C
text: If <disfmarker> if you can leave it out the network that will be really cool .
speaker: C
text: That 's what you w what I would like to do ,
speaker: C
text: so
speaker: C
text: Yes .
speaker: B
text: But when quality of service comes to the uh scene , well , I think <pause> we have a <disfmarker> a bigger problem
speaker: B
text: because maybe this <disfmarker> this uh uh seamless migration cannot be seamless at all ,
speaker: B
text: because maybe the <disfmarker> the quality of service we are getting when we are <pause> connected to a certain network , let 's say high - speed networking , cannot be <pause> sustained when we are switching to a different technology .
speaker: B
text: So , this is another thing that is uh putting a little bit in more trouble our <disfmarker> our scheme
speaker: B
text: or <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Now , I would like not to hear only three opinions .
speaker: A
text: Hm
speaker: D
text: But maybe there are also other opinions .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Oh , sorry .
speaker: D
text: And maybe everybody should uh give a short <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: I think you <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Let us understand , built for everybody and their com whether their comments .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: I think we should <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: In this thing of seamless handoff <disfmarker> or handovers <disfmarker> should think more maybe in <pause> different layers ?
speaker: A
text: So one layer is <pause> having the seamless handover .
speaker: A
text: It 's clear if a technology doesn't provide that <pause> quality of service , you can't do magic and have it .
speaker: A
text: There are certain constraints on that .
speaker: A
text: It 's true .
speaker: A
text: That 's still in mind .
speaker: A
text: But for <disfmarker> with the cases there <disfmarker> There , it is possible .
speaker: A
text: So that should be made possible then ?
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: So
speaker: B
text: It can be done .
speaker: B
text: It is just <disfmarker> Mmm uh Trying to <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> to poi to pinpoint The <disfmarker> the possible problems .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: There are still enough problems i <pause> in doing it .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Yep .
speaker: A
text: But it might be the wrong thing to promise , uh , ten megabits to everywhere .
speaker: A
text: There you are .
speaker: A
text: But saying " OK if it 's <pause> a <disfmarker> if the technology is OK , you can do it . "
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: In fact , if you take the slower technology <pause> of the ones you are planning to <disfmarker> to support , you can offer this warran this <disfmarker> uh this throughput as uh the minimum warranty you <disfmarker> you can get .
speaker: A
text: Yep .
speaker: A
text: Yep .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: So , if everybody is <disfmarker> is asking for less than this minimum amount , no problem at all .
speaker: B
text: But in this case , maybe not too much effort should be put <pause> on providing this quality of service
speaker: B
text: because you just have a <disfmarker> usually a huge <pause> bandwidth compared on a <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> w with what the user is <disfmarker> is using .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Yep .
speaker: A
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: I mean , if you have a ten megabits bandwidth and the user is asking two kilobits per second , of course , you can uh build uh certain reserve mechanisms to warranty the user these two kilobits per second bandwidth .
speaker: B
text: But probably in <disfmarker> it isn't <disfmarker> it is not worth because you have so many uh available bandwidths that maybe uh it is not a problem .
speaker: D
text: Oh , please come in .
speaker: B
text: Hi .
speaker: A
text: Hi .
speaker: G
text: Hmm ?
speaker: G
text: Oh !
speaker: G
text: OK .
speaker: A
text: ist fertig .
speaker: D
text: Uh .
speaker: D
text: OK
speaker: B
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: D
text: Good luck .
speaker: C
text: The <disfmarker> the thing is that we are looking for a research <pause> topic on <disfmarker> on those uh four areas .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: And the building blocks ,
speaker: D
text: yeah .
speaker: D
text: Multicast , not a topic .
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So we <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Routing ?
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker> so we went <pause> through <pause> uh <pause> uh to <disfmarker> through multicast .
speaker: C
text: So this architecture with m
speaker: C
text: well , at least no wireless environment or a mobile IP environment , comparable to uh UMTS environments . We really did not find any <disfmarker> well , difficulties there .
speaker: C
text: On the blackboard , that is .
speaker: C
text: Of course , in real life there will b probably be some problems .
speaker: B
text: Have you <disfmarker> have you read about this <disfmarker> uh Barwan project held at Berkeley University ?
speaker: D
text: Well , what you <disfmarker> the pointer <disfmarker> the pointer you sent yesterday .
speaker: C
text: Iceberg ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah ,
speaker: D
text: I c I didn't find the time , yeah , to do so ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: but ,
speaker: D
text: uh
speaker: C
text: You mean the Iceberg project ?
speaker: B
text: Barwan .
speaker: C
text: Barwan <pause> of <pause> uh ES
speaker: B
text: Barwan .
speaker: A
text: How 's it start ?
speaker: C
text: I know there 's one that 's of uh Randy Katz .
speaker: B
text: Uh da it was another related project called Daedalus .
speaker: C
text: Yes .
speaker: B
text: And uh well it seems they what they were doing was some kind of <pause> uh things si somehow similar to this .
speaker: C
text: They worked together wi little bit with Nokia ?
speaker: B
text: u
speaker: B
text: Uh <pause> Don't know .
speaker: C
text: Palo Alto ?
speaker: C
text: Mountain View ?
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> I just uh take a <disfmarker> a quick uh look at the <disfmarker> at the thing
speaker: B
text: because I <disfmarker> I was <disfmarker> uh read about this uh a long time ago .
speaker: B
text: And it <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> the latest report I <disfmarker> I found was in nineteen ninety eight .
speaker: B
text: And in this report , well , they <disfmarker> they pres <pause> they have uh some slides , some uh papers , some <disfmarker> well , a lot of things .
speaker: C
text: Hmm .
speaker: B
text: And <pause> well the main thing and the quick uh thing I <disfmarker> I was uh looking at was a <disfmarker> a video available in MP - thr <pause> in MPG M - peg format .
speaker: B
text: And uh
speaker: B
text: well <pause> what this video was presenting was a kind of test of <disfmarker> of one guy with a <pause> portable computer , moving across different networks .
speaker: B
text: So starting at the CS department at Berkeley
speaker: B
text: and then going out the street
speaker: B
text: switching to the <disfmarker> a campus - wide network ,
speaker: B
text: uh um I think it 's a Metricom uh network ,
speaker: B
text: an which is uh a test <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: A Ricochet here , right ?
speaker: B
text: Ricochet ,
speaker: B
text: yeah ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: that 's right .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: And then , finally switching to <disfmarker> I think it was city PD or something like this .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker> as lo uh as the <disfmarker> as the user is moving out of the <disfmarker> of the coverage area of this second network .
speaker: B
text: And , well , what they have built is a a <disfmarker> kind of uh proxy structure .
speaker: B
text: So they are <disfmarker> they are putting most of the work of this adaptational layer on <disfmarker> <pause> on the side of the proxies .
speaker: B
text: So the client or the server is not changed .
speaker: B
text: It is the proxy , the one that does the work .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: OK ,
speaker: B
text: so you can even , for example , use <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: It 's the same ?
speaker: D
text: Ah we just discussed a lot about proxies .
speaker: B
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: D
text: That 's a fun
speaker: C
text: I like them
speaker: C
text: so
speaker: B
text: OK ,
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: It is just that <disfmarker> that <disfmarker> well , maybe we can <disfmarker> we can take a look at <disfmarker> oh maybe a more in - depth look at this project
speaker: B
text: just to see if we are doing the same , or if we are doing something similar .
speaker: B
text: It would be important for us <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> to highlight the differences .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Because if not , well , they can say , " Oh , you are doing the same thing . "
speaker: B
text: " This was done <pause> now . "
speaker: C
text: Or maybe talk to them <pause> about s operations they thought of but didn't touch yet .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , well we are close .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Uh maybe a few comments .
speaker: D
text: First of all , Um . Do you mind Mi - Miguel , to write the name of the project on the whiteboard ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: No problem .
speaker: D
text: So that everybody <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Uh <pause> I <disfmarker> I will send also the pointer which Miguel sent to me , to everybody so that everybody can take a look to this uh , project .
speaker: C
text: I was <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: And uh I don't know what avail information is available
speaker: D
text: because I didn't find the time currently to check it out .
speaker: E
text: It 's a project of the UC .
speaker: D
text: But first of <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Yeah ,
speaker: E
text: Oh , yeah .
speaker: B
text: UC Ber - uh Berkeley ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Wh - when did you go through this ?
speaker: B
text: yeah .
speaker: B
text: I 'll <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> you <disfmarker> uh <pause> I seen uh uh reports from nineteen ninety uh ninety - six , ninety - seven and ninety - eight .
speaker: C
text: Cuz yesterday I was uh Well <pause> coincidentally , I b bumped into this project here .
speaker: B
text: Maybe the project <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: n uh
speaker: C
text: It 's funny .
speaker: D
text: Uh , sorry ?
speaker: D
text: Uh do <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Yeah , yesterday I was just surfing a little bit .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Ah !
speaker: C
text: And then from Nokia I came to this <disfmarker> that <pause> project ,
speaker: D
text: Ah !
speaker: D
text: OK ,
speaker: D
text: I see .
speaker: C
text: so .
speaker: D
text: Yeah ? <pause> @ @
speaker: C
text: Nokia research .
speaker: B
text: I think that <disfmarker> that the leader was uh Professor Katz .
speaker: C
text: And then <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: That 's right .
speaker: C
text: And he 's also board in Nokia research ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: so
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Then the second thing is that uh Daimler - Chrysler research here in Palo Alto as well as in Germany , Ulm , is doing , in principle , the same with a car .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: They have a specific antenna for uh GSM <pause> Oh , GPS and <disfmarker> and fu for future extended G - uh GSM networks and wireless LAN and <pause> and other thi and other network technology .
speaker: D
text: In the roof of the car . They have a s lot of servers
speaker: D
text: in the <pause> trunk of the car . Then they collect data how it is <disfmarker> with handoff and all these kind of things
speaker: D
text: and they are driving around the different areas .
speaker: D
text: And the same car exists here in Palo Alto uh based on wireless LAN , GSM and 2 x Ricochet networks .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: They collect the dat collect <disfmarker> collecting a lot of data . concerning the seamless handoffs and whether it works very well with speed
speaker: D
text: and um
speaker: D
text: uh , Thomas is going to build mobile IP stuff in their servers .
speaker: D
text: uh
speaker: D
text: because they want to
speaker: D
text: use current technology with a c a combination of mobile IP . So I think there is a lot of activities in the area .
speaker: D
text: Uh .
speaker: D
text: And my third uh comment is uh if we are going <pause> something in that direction that is quite different from this thing <pause> here .
speaker: D
text: But , anyway , maybe as a core technology with a real product in mind .
speaker: D
text: I see some difficulty because nobody currently has here certain kind uh of UMTS know how .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: And you need it definitely
speaker: D
text: because then <disfmarker> it j must be your uh Bible I would like to say that you are very familiar with UMTS if you wanna go in <disfmarker> in that way .
speaker: D
text: And As far as I know the UMTS standardization is not finished yet .
speaker: D
text: Ninety percent , maybe , or eighty percent .
speaker: D
text: I kno I 'm not sure .
speaker: D
text: But <pause> uh
speaker: B
text: Yeah
speaker: B
text: b le let me <disfmarker> let me ask you <vocalsound> a question about eh UMTS or <disfmarker> or third or possible fourth generation communic wireless communication systems .
speaker: D
text: that <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Uh , from the point of view of the user , uh <pause> is there uh something more that <disfmarker> nnn , that <disfmarker> than more speed ?
speaker: B
text: Is there any other advantage , from the point of view of the user or of <disfmarker> of the terminals ?
speaker: D
text: Users of <disfmarker> of UMTS ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: You can request certain kind of QS .
speaker: D
text: You can even request it in GPS
speaker: D
text: but it 's not end - to - end quality of service .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: It is only um <pause> what the gateways get .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: And within the core network <pause> there are certain kind of tunnels set up in the core network itself of the access provider ,
speaker: D
text: not the internet backbone core .
speaker: D
text: And you use certain kind of tunnel mechanism <pause> to combine , in principle , the base station cluster control .
speaker: D
text: But this is <disfmarker> uh is controlled by a certain kind of <pause> node .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: And you have the gateway to the <pause> PDN , or the Public Data Network .
speaker: D
text: And between both there 's a certain kind of tunnel set up .
speaker: B
text: But in fact <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: But in <disfmarker> fact now , at the GSM level , what you have is that every voice channel you use provides a <disfmarker> a p a pretty fine fixed uh data speed .
speaker: B
text: So , we can say that every voice channel has an i an incr uh <disfmarker> implied um <pause> quality of service ,
speaker: B
text: which is nnn ninety six hundred bits per second .
speaker: B
text: Full duplex .
speaker: D
text: You mean now for GSM , @ @ ,
speaker: B
text: Doesn't it ?
speaker: D
text: or <disfmarker> ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: So .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , what is <disfmarker> what means quality of service .
speaker: D
text: A certain degree .
speaker: D
text: Right ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Uh .
speaker: D
text: Sometimes we have some <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: No , but <disfmarker> um but not only because of <disfmarker> of data speed ,
speaker: B
text: but also about delay ,
speaker: B
text: you know ,
speaker: B
text: because GSM networks were developed to y uh <pause> with a voice service in mind .
speaker: B
text: Ah , delay is also <pause> considered in these networks .
speaker: B
text: So ,
speaker: B
text: uh , in fact for every voice channel you have uh a pretty fine maximum uh delay and jitter , and a <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> a specified um data speed .
speaker: B
text: So you can scale up <disfmarker> scale up this uh this um thing by using several channels .
speaker: B
text: So , in fact , you have , using just GSM technology , you have more or less the same building blocks as you can get uh with the UMTS .
speaker: B
text: I mean that one thing is that the technology is a little bit different ,
speaker: B
text: that uh the base station thing is different
speaker: B
text: and maybe uh the <disfmarker> the internal routing uh inside the network is different
speaker: B
text: but from the point of view of the mobile things uh I 'm not sure if <disfmarker> if <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: It 's packaged data oriented .
speaker: D
text: It 's not really circuit - switched .
speaker: D
text: In UMTS you have always GPS as a <disfmarker> a involvement in the core network .
speaker: D
text: You have , in principle , the path which still is available for <disfmarker> for the GSM network .
speaker: D
text: Also they use , in principle , the same uh the same mechanism .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: But you also have a <disfmarker> dat uh packet oriented communication that 's on the GPS stuff .
speaker: D
text: And that 's also related to UMTS .
speaker: B
text: Yeah , but <disfmarker> The <disfmarker> You know , it is also being d uh developed , this G uh P - DPRS thing , GPRS thing .
speaker: D
text: So ,
speaker: D
text: that is <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: which is uh pack uh packet data over GSM .
speaker: B
text: So ,
speaker: B
text: I mean . Uh , I don't see that a <disfmarker> a lot of difference .
speaker: B
text: We can expect a lot of differences f uh from the uh mobile terminal point of view . Uh , when uh UMTS be deployed .
speaker: B
text: What I 'm trying to say is that <disfmarker> is that <disfmarker> well , uh maybe uh it is not a big problem that any of us uh be uh um were um a UMTS expert
speaker: B
text: because uh I <disfmarker> I don't see <disfmarker> it <disfmarker> I think that the UMTS thing is more a technology issue , than a research issue .
speaker: B
text: Maybe I 'm wrong .
speaker: B
text: Just es
speaker: B
text: um
speaker: D
text: No , I think there 's a lot <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: explaining my <disfmarker> m
speaker: D
text: Yeah . <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: I think there 's a lot of research .
speaker: D
text: But the question is " is this uh a research wh in which direction we are going ? "
speaker: B
text: I mean <disfmarker> to be done here ,
speaker: D
text: And because <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: For inf
speaker: B
text: not <disfmarker> not at the <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: of course , you know , <vocalsound> I 'm <disfmarker> I <disfmarker> I agree with you that there are a lot o of things to be developed
speaker: B
text: but <disfmarker> But the point is that <disfmarker> uh this is <pause> probably not here .
speaker: B
text: Because uh well , you know the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> the orientation of our group which is uh " Networks Services and Applications " , not uh wireless technology or the underlying wireless technology .
speaker: E
text: You think more about hardware technology .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: So , there is a lot of hardware to develop , but <pause> not <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: You know , radio frequency technology ,
speaker: B
text: wide - band w uh CDMA .
speaker: B
text: These kind of things all have a lot of things to be <disfmarker> to be <disfmarker> uh researched .
speaker: B
text: But uh I don't think w this is not something we are doing <pause> here .
speaker: D
text: Right ,
speaker: D
text: but bear in mind the picture is a <disfmarker> is a little bit different .
speaker: D
text: The picture I have in mind concerning UMTS is , first of all , if you use UMTS only for voice , Like you did it or are doing now for GSM , it 's not worth to have this kind of network .
speaker: D
text: And , <pause> currently in Europe , where it will be deployed first , I believe , it will be very hard , in principle , to get some money back if you have only for <disfmarker> using it for voice .
speaker: B
text: Voice ,
speaker: B
text: yeah .
speaker: D
text: Because they paid a lot of money .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: What is the point ?
speaker: D
text: The point is that you use the UMTS to connect to the internet and have certain kind of services which are still not available up to now .
speaker: D
text: But the problem is if you have the internet content , and you have maybe your small uh um <pause> device of maybe only evolution based for <disfmarker> for these uh new technologies , for <disfmarker> for <disfmarker> certain mobile phones , then you have certain kind of problems ,
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: you know ,
speaker: D
text: because you cannot use these things .
speaker: D
text: And WAP is not an answer for <disfmarker> for these kind of things ,
speaker: D
text: you know .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: The <disfmarker> I believe there is a lot of research work
speaker: D
text: and also if you see the end - to - end scope of the internet , from the mobile node up to the certain kind of server , " correspondent node " , or whatever you call this <pause> destination , then you have certain kind of models , for instance , for the quality of service and all these kind of things .
speaker: D
text: And then is UMTS only one link where you have certain kind of subnet layer technology .
speaker: D
text: And you have to match these things anyway .
speaker: D
text: It 's like a <pause> normal ethernet .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Whatever you see , it is only an additional subnet layer technology .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: And you have all the things mapped to the <disfmarker> uh to <disfmarker> to the <disfmarker> to the <disfmarker> the internet stuff , in principle , to this technology .
speaker: D
text: And furthermore , you see that the trend is to put more IP technology , really , really IP technology , and not certain kind of modifications and adaptations , to their access network itself .
speaker: D
text: And
speaker: D
text: th there 's a lot of potential , as I believe , for <disfmarker> for uh certain research work .
speaker: D
text: But the question is , first of all , " Do we have the competence to do something like that ? "
speaker: D
text: First of all .
speaker: D
text: Second , we are not hardware builders , in that sense to set up certain kind of end systems .
speaker: D
text: We can design them , yeah , from the protocol layering
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and maybe have some simulations , or whatever .
speaker: D
text: But isn't the final outcome really such a device ?
speaker: D
text: Prototype , Linux based .
speaker: D
text: And we go around here and we have maybe a GPS - base station sponsored by Ericsson ,
speaker: D
text: since they are living not so far away
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and maybe WaveLAN connection , here
speaker: D
text: now a testbed
speaker: D
text: and then <disfmarker> then figure out that it works ?
speaker: D
text: So , that 's my point .
speaker: C
text: Well , just to make the list a little bit longer .
speaker: D
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: May
speaker: C
text: Um , you could also think about uh session management .
speaker: C
text: I do along with uh the network applications and services , uh as you might know .
speaker: C
text: It 's a <disfmarker> a
speaker: C
text: if you can do it in the end systems or at sp specific servers , then , I 'm in favor of that .
speaker: C
text: But se session management , I mean uh the authentication , if you go from one network to the other , it 's not solved .
speaker: C
text: uh ,
speaker: C
text: Nobody really wants a <disfmarker> a guest on your network .
speaker: C
text: Unless you get some money through some way <disfmarker> uh through some way .
speaker: C
text: Then , there is also the session management in the sense that a lot of these things <disfmarker> at the Barwan project , as you said , go through proxies .
speaker: C
text: There might be kind of handoffs at <disfmarker> uh at proxies ,
speaker: C
text: like the zip uh <disfmarker> s zip proxy that we <pause> also discussed before a little bit .
speaker: C
text: That <disfmarker> that 's als I think also in the line of uh session management .
speaker: C
text: Then there is this uh perfect thing uh the Berkeley sockets .
speaker: C
text: It 's almost perfect .
speaker: C
text: They s kind of skipped uh layer five , uh session management or session layer , I think .
speaker: C
text: That 's um <pause> normally with <disfmarker> if you do a socket programming , it 's directly the prot application protocol on layer four , uh TCP socket , or layer five for UDP socket .
speaker: C
text: There might also be some research <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Well ,
speaker: C
text: could you introduce such a session management ,
speaker: C
text: or <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Norm - what they do right now is they make it part of the application - level protocol .
speaker: C
text: That 's what they do most often .
speaker: C
text: Like with session management ? for mobile the <disfmarker> uh applications such as ist instant messaging or uh talks , and so on , uh like zip . It 's just doing a <disfmarker> a reconnect .
speaker: C
text: If they think that the network is different or different capabilities come into play , they simply do a reconnect
speaker: C
text: so it 's part of the protocol .
speaker: C
text: That 's all what I think about session management ,
speaker: C
text: like part of <disfmarker> in proxies or is it en embedded in application level protocols ?
speaker: D
text: But it 's really higher level .
speaker: D
text: Right ?
speaker: D
text: It 's no more related to a network .
speaker: C
text: I it 's <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: We are leaving the network area .
speaker: D
text: That 's dangerous .
speaker: C
text: So how do you want to focus on network services .
speaker: D
text: Cuz if you go to the app
speaker: D
text: If you <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: For me that 's starting with middleware aspects ,
speaker: D
text: you know ?
speaker: C
text: Well the
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So " network applications " , if you look at the name of <pause> the group , one thing is that um the they used to call a <disfmarker> a n a " network " that was uh <disfmarker> if it was like distributed between two systems connected by a network .
speaker: C
text: If you look at " network " from the OZ layer , then it 's uh , level two or something or <pause> maybe level three , but everything below <pause> three .
speaker: C
text: So there are , I think , two <disfmarker> two different interpretations of uh " network " .
speaker: D
text: No , I believe " network " is , if you see it really from <disfmarker> from the IP protocol suite , is then layer one , in principle , up t including layer four ,
speaker: D
text: despite the fact that layer four is only residing , normally , in the end system and in the gateways .
speaker: C
text: But are there " network applications " , then ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So , the <disfmarker> the name is " Network Services and Applications " ,
speaker: C
text: s so what could be an en example of a network application if you look at the OZ stick ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah , we have , I think , some .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Do you see this word " application " related to a network ?
speaker: D
text: Or do you see this word independently ?
speaker: D
text: That was never discussed in detail .
speaker: D
text: " Network <pause> Services <pause> and <pause> Applications " .
speaker: D
text: So , everything in the world .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: Or is the application related to the network ?
speaker: D
text: For my understanding and as far as we discussed , so <disfmarker> such a long time uh , these applications should <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: For instance , e - commerce .
speaker: C
text: OK , OK , well , they will <disfmarker> I didn't want to get a discussion now .
speaker: D
text: And it 's really , really
speaker: D
text: yeah
speaker: D
text: You know ?
speaker: D
text: That <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: No no , uh that is a typical application , I think ,
speaker: D
text: which is , in principle , also a little bit related to <disfmarker> uh to the network .
speaker: D
text: But not any application .
speaker: D
text: And we also have the aspects for security .
speaker: D
text: Miguel , you mentioned here authentication and <disfmarker> and triple - A ,
speaker: D
text: but we do not have any expert anymore .
speaker: D
text: Because Hannes was an expert for that .
speaker: D
text: So the <pause> problem for me , it still exists that we have , in principle , here <pause> basic building blocks in the proposal from the networking side .
speaker: D
text: We could have a certain kind of application
speaker: D
text: and there 's a lot of activities in the outside world
speaker: D
text: and I believe there 's a lot of contacts .
speaker: D
text: Or there could be a lot of contacts uh with <disfmarker> with these people .
speaker: D
text: Especially at uh Georgia Tech .
speaker: D
text: I know on <disfmarker> next week on Tuesday .
speaker: D
text: Tuesday , right ?
speaker: D
text: We will go to UCB .
speaker: D
text: There are three guys .
speaker: D
text: Then Morgan mentioned one .
speaker: D
text: I do not know exactly um uh what he is doing ,
speaker: D
text: but , he 's also interesting in some kind of collaboration .
speaker: D
text: He 's also a professor in the UCB .
speaker: D
text: And uh many universities
speaker: D
text: maybe <pause> Claudia mentioned Duisburg .
speaker: D
text: And uh <disfmarker> in principle , most of the university have some activities in that area .
speaker: D
text: We will not take care about these one ,
speaker: D
text: but we can use them as um <pause> for field ex uh field trial access
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and maybe some support
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and whatever kind of thing .
speaker: D
text: And we focus really on the networking stuff
speaker: D
text: and going in more detail in this area .
speaker: D
text: And the alternative is maybe what uh
speaker: D
text: currently we have only uh this uh proposal from Wilbert to go more in the smaller scope .
speaker: D
text: Figure out some potential from maybe this uh WaveLAN UMTS stuff
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and starting from that .
speaker: D
text: Or , are there other suggestions ?
speaker: E
text: I think we uh have already so much work put into this proposal ,
speaker: E
text: why to switch now ?
speaker: E
text: So I don't see the reason for that .
speaker: E
text: Maybe the application we suggested is not the best one .
speaker: E
text: So we have to think about an application which <disfmarker> which is um um , for mobile users , more relevant .
speaker: E
text: I don't know .
speaker: E
text: Maybe video games .
speaker: E
text: If you are traveling
speaker: E
text: uh , it 's boring to travel
speaker: E
text: and then you decide to play a g video game with somebody else who 's traveling .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , you know , it 's still mentioned in the proposal .
speaker: E
text: So .
speaker: D
text: And
speaker: D
text: th um
speaker: D
text: I <disfmarker> I 'm sure , OK , that it is the wrong place to <pause> get the foundation why we are use this kind of application ,
speaker: D
text: but uh <disfmarker> And <disfmarker> In <disfmarker> in the end of the text <disfmarker> in the end of the pr text of the proposal .
speaker: D
text: But it is mentioned that it is only an example .
speaker: D
text: And that we use this application , in principle , while it is then very very easy to get a certain kind of access to these kind of things .
speaker: D
text: When you have a video game server and <disfmarker> and you want to have mobile access you must at least have one in your consortium , or as a partner whatever , who provides this service .
speaker: D
text: And then we <disfmarker> we are playing videos , in principle , if you have a field trial .
speaker: D
text: And that is , I think , much more harder than to have a certain kind of <disfmarker> certain kind of access to the University ,
speaker: D
text: and uh to this server , which is run on the campus of the University .
speaker: E
text: OK , that 's right .
speaker: D
text: And that is the point .
speaker: D
text: You can have this f to figure out all the things
speaker: D
text: and the <disfmarker> the um
speaker: D
text: and the <disfmarker> the um
speaker: D
text: um , now , how to say , the requirements of this application using this classroom scenario .
speaker: D
text: But nevertheless , it 's not the best for
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and uh
speaker: D
text: s networking stuff .
speaker: D
text: You are right .
speaker: D
text: But it <disfmarker> Does anybody see certain kind of potential here to go on ,
speaker: D
text: and to start the work maybe in this little bit smaller oh uh scope based on these building blocks ?
speaker: D
text: Because Multicast you still mentio uh you mentioned that there is no potential .
speaker: D
text: I think it 's described here that the potential , if you use it for the mapping to the next generation networks in the wireless access area they are still some potential to map Multicast
speaker: D
text: because they <pause> do not use it .
speaker: D
text: And to figure out whether they 're useful inse instead of using certain kind of tunneling mechanism and to set up these tunnels
speaker: D
text: and have the mapping between a PSDN uh telephone number or whatever kind of number they are using to IP addresses and then there 's the tunnel I Ds ,
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and all this kind of things , I think , is very beneficial as well for <disfmarker> for telecommunication providers .
speaker: D
text: as well as for ISP 's .
speaker: D
text: I <disfmarker> I think the potential is still there .
speaker: D
text: You <disfmarker> you neglected that ,
speaker: D
text: but I don't think that you are right in that sense .
speaker: C
text: Well , think it works ,
speaker: C
text: but uh
speaker: C
text: yes , the mapping of course between multicasting and the UMTS or <disfmarker> or whatever
speaker: D
text: In next generation ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: That 's <disfmarker> or CDMA or whatever <disfmarker> that 's uh , yeah , probably a thing that has to be find out .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: I don't know what statuses .
speaker: C
text: Maybe they already did it par as part of UMTS ,
speaker: C
text: I 'm not sure .
speaker: C
text: I don't have a clue .
speaker: C
text: I <disfmarker> I only know how it works on copper and like ethernet
speaker: C
text: and on PS PPP over something
speaker: C
text: and how it works like that ,
speaker: C
text: but on the wireless I 'm not sure .
speaker: D
text: Now what do you see about the
speaker: D
text: um , um ,
speaker: D
text: KPN interests ?
speaker: D
text: Because , I believe s if the argument changes as follows that you are here and that you are very familiar with uh the Multicast stuff , and KPN is very interesting in UMTS stuff , and this is one potential target network environment we are focusing on , but only for the uh IP - layer technology , then , why do <disfmarker> the mapping of multica also potential mapping of Multicast , I think , must be of major interest for them .
speaker: D
text: Right ?
speaker: B
text: One question .
speaker: C
text: Yes , but if <disfmarker> if it 's available
speaker: C
text: that means
speaker: C
text: so <disfmarker> so if uh if it 's already part of the UMTS standardization then uh it 's immediately finished ,
speaker: C
text: like , OK , you can tell , KPN well go to Ericsson or Nokia and buy it ?
speaker: C
text: And if it 's not in there yet well , it could be a suggestion
speaker: C
text: and then the hardware people will make it part u like the ETSI or whatever <disfmarker> where U <disfmarker> wherever UMTS is standardized they will d well , go for it .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: Of course , yeah , this <disfmarker> this group could do that , too .
speaker: C
text: Could be ,
speaker: C
text: but
speaker: B
text: I have a <disfmarker> an important doubt about the IP availability over UMTS .
speaker: B
text: I mean <disfmarker> you know that the carriers and some manufacturers have done an important effort in developing this web thing
speaker: B
text: and uh I 'm not sure what they plan to do with next generation .
speaker: B
text: I mean , are they <pause> maintaining <disfmarker> are they holding the same web technology ?
speaker: B
text: Or , are ju just they <disfmarker> discarding this technology
speaker: B
text: and forgetting about the thing ?
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker> I don't know what will happen .
speaker: B
text: uh , I <disfmarker> I don't have a clue .
speaker: B
text: Probably , if after searching a little bit on the <disfmarker> on the net I can get the answer ,
speaker: B
text: but initially this is something to <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> to have in mind .
speaker: B
text: I mean . Because maybe this UMTS thing will appear on the market without IP as a native protocol .
speaker: B
text: And if this is the case well , thus seamless integration could be we strongly affected .
speaker: B
text: At least , uh , if you <disfmarker> we want to use U M
speaker: B
text: I 'm <disfmarker> I 'm <disfmarker> just uh throwing the question .
speaker: B
text: uh I mean , looking for an answer
speaker: B
text: because I don't know if uh some of you have a clue about this .
speaker: B
text: I don't know what <disfmarker> what carriers are planning to do about this .
speaker: C
text: I 'm not really sure ,
speaker: C
text: but I thought I <disfmarker> I had the impression that we can throw away our Nokia stuff when <disfmarker> our web gateways , when we g even go to GPRS ,
speaker: C
text: so
speaker: C
text: let alone UMTS .
speaker: D
text: Now , WAP is ja not only related now to available bandwidth .
speaker: C
text: That 's the impression I get .
speaker: D
text: That 's not the only thing .
speaker: D
text: It 's only the adaptation towards the capabilities of the end device .
speaker: D
text: Right ?
speaker: C
text: Yeah , definitely .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: uh <disfmarker> I never was a friend <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: But <pause> but still a le d it 's a <disfmarker> it 's a fundamental
speaker: D
text: Huh .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: uh it 's a <disfmarker> part of a <disfmarker> of design like the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: the terminal has a WAP stick .
speaker: C
text: And there 's a box that has also a <disfmarker> a WAP stick .
speaker: D
text: So <pause> yeah .
speaker: C
text: And they do sometime <disfmarker> most cases , they do share an IP address .
speaker: C
text: But doesn't uh have to deal with IP at all .
speaker: C
text: It 's l just a thirty - bit number
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: that a actually is an assigned number .
speaker: C
text: But it 's all only used for identification .
speaker: C
text: That 's the only thing .
speaker: C
text: It 's stored in a WAP cookie ,
speaker: C
text: much like HTP
speaker: C
text: in a cookie and from the WAP gateway
speaker: C
text: then it will be HTP <disfmarker> real HTP <disfmarker> or something .
speaker: C
text: So it 's <disfmarker> it 's really a different uh type of connection .
speaker: C
text: It looks a little bit like uh the <disfmarker> the well , WML looks a little bit like HTML ,
speaker: C
text: but that 's all what 's uh <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: It 's not IP at all .
speaker: D
text: Right .
speaker: C
text: Because there is a gateway , you can access with almost the same microbrowser ,
speaker: C
text: the same i uh web servers .
speaker: C
text: If they provide the right content <disfmarker> uh , spit out the right uh WML language .
speaker: C
text: So it 's <disfmarker> it 's really a different network <disfmarker> technology <disfmarker> I think .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: It 's transparent , in principle , what you can carry ,
speaker: D
text: but <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Anyway , you have the gateway .
speaker: D
text: It must be uh <pause> The ca uh c uh t conversion of the media
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: But @ @
speaker: D
text: of the contents , in principle .
speaker: D
text: But , I don't see that uh <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: It 's too late , I believe .
speaker: D
text: If WAP was available in the beginning of GSM , then I think it was there would be a good chance that it is well - deployed .
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: But now , the first generation of web - browsers are in the ha and <disfmarker> and uh I would say " handies " ,
speaker: C
text: I i
speaker: D
text: so that 's wrong <vocalsound> <disfmarker> in the mobile phones ,
speaker: D
text: but the <disfmarker> the next generation of networks are still available .
speaker: D
text: and the ba uh the bandwidth constraints are no more applicable ?
speaker: C
text: Well <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Ri - right now there is still a lot of WAP , actually .
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So that the <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but <disfmarker> The hype
speaker: D
text: but
speaker: D
text: pffft
speaker: D
text: uh
speaker: C
text: Well , users <disfmarker> usage .
speaker: D
text: I never saw a user using WAP .
speaker: D
text: Please raise your hand , who is using WAP .
speaker: C
text: My colleagues are .
speaker: D
text: Yeah ?
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , they are using WAP .
speaker: D
text: Yeah ?
speaker: D
text: OK , one of six .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: E
text: I don't have a mobile phone .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Oh .
speaker: C
text: i
speaker: A
text: Who is using mobile phones ?
speaker: C
text: Bu - <pause> well , you don't have a mobile phone in <disfmarker> in the USA here .
speaker: B
text: No .
speaker: B
text: No .
speaker: C
text: So that 's maybe the reason .
speaker: B
text: Not me .
speaker: C
text: And I 'm not <disfmarker> I doubt that it 's not available in Germany .
speaker: C
text: It 's <disfmarker> would be unbelievable to me .
speaker: D
text: Now , do you <disfmarker> yeah , do you see the chance for WAP ?
speaker: D
text: I don't see it .
speaker: C
text: It i it is .
speaker: C
text: In <disfmarker> in <disfmarker> in Sweden it is also there .
speaker: C
text: And in the Netherlands , it is also available .
speaker: B
text: Mmm .
speaker: C
text: every provider provides <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: In Spain it 's available
speaker: B
text: but uh you know , uh my main complaint has been all the time that it is difficult to me to believe that I can do interesting work with a 4 lines display .
speaker: B
text: Ah <pause> Maybe , check the lottery result <vocalsound> or something like this ,
speaker: C
text: Oh .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , but <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Oh !
speaker: C
text: Bu
speaker: C
text: I 'm the first one to admit that 's a h that it is a hype ,
speaker: B
text: but <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: but <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> but I 'm <disfmarker> I just wanted to say it is being used .
speaker: C
text: But if it makes sense to me and to <disfmarker> especially to have WAP in <disfmarker> in between , no .
speaker: C
text: I 'm not a supporter of it .
speaker: B
text: Huh - huh - huh .
speaker: C
text: So they have this optimized protocol to <disfmarker> to transmit a few ASCII bytes that can <pause> rescr refresh the screen with a different animation <pause> every , well , second , a few times .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So , that 's <disfmarker> that 's true .
speaker: C
text: I immediately agree .
speaker: C
text: But the thing was , y you just asked well , " will <disfmarker> will it be the same , will there be WAP for UMTS " and so on , QPRS .
speaker: B
text: Well
speaker: C
text: And <disfmarker> well <disfmarker> I don't have the answer ,
speaker: B
text: I <disfmarker> I don't know what will <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: but I thought it was not .
speaker: C
text: I 'm just <disfmarker> It 's weird <disfmarker> it 's weird to stop doing it with GPRS .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: A
text: But usually WAP shouldn't <disfmarker> is so general that it can be used with UMTS .
speaker: A
text: So if you <pause> still want to use WAP with UMTS you might be able to do it .
speaker: A
text: But
speaker: C
text: Yes .
speaker: A
text: that shouldn't be your only way of <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: There 's a gate You can put the gateway <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: if you want to do it in a <disfmarker> in a mobile phone <disfmarker> want to implement it , as a light stack or something .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yes ?
speaker: D
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: Sure .
speaker: A
text: But usually <disfmarker> that 's not the reason to have UMTS .
speaker: C
text: No , not <disfmarker> not if you have a big uh web pad or something .
speaker: A
text: Yep .
speaker: C
text: Then you m There <disfmarker> there 's an IP stack in it
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: and <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: So maybe I would like to ask Claudia ,
speaker: C
text: Hmm .
speaker: D
text: you read the proposal in the meantime ?
speaker: G
text: Yeah , but the task changed really a lot ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: G
text: so , I 'd <disfmarker> I rather would like to
speaker: D
text: Yes , that 's right .
speaker: D
text: And do you have some comments on it
speaker: D
text: from the next <disfmarker> this is version zero dot five right , yeah .
speaker: G
text: Yeah , but I 'd rather like to follow the discussion before I gave any comments ,
speaker: G
text: cuz it 's really The first point is it 's much more than it was before I left ,
speaker: G
text: so it 's like five weeks in between , so it 's like that whew !
speaker: G
text: that big now .
speaker: D
text: That 's right .
speaker: G
text: And it really changed a lot
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: G
text: cuz the <disfmarker> I mean I found the classroom inside
speaker: G
text: but , the thing where I left the discussion was that we are talking about uh a classroom where you know everybody could look on with any kind of device and follow lectures or do exercise or whatever .
speaker: G
text: So .
speaker: G
text: Now we are talking about something which is much more precise
speaker: G
text: and the <disfmarker> the range of stuff is maybe more <pause> narrow than before
speaker: G
text: so I 'd rather like to <disfmarker> to follow it a bit , and then to get more into <pause> the ideas .
speaker: C
text: So
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: c Can I <pause> do another one , like
speaker: C
text: UMTS or wireless <pause> u i generally are <disfmarker> will be m more expensive .
speaker: C
text: And especially UMTS .
speaker: C
text: If they want to get back the money .
speaker: C
text: So is it maybe a research topic to focus on the <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: not really billing , of course .
speaker: C
text: I wouldn't <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: but at least the different application of protocol - based usage .
speaker: C
text: So you have uh one connection , one application uses FTP whatever ,
speaker: C
text: bit voice or some other <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: That <disfmarker> those type of application you m may <disfmarker> might want to <pause> make more out of a megabit per second or something .
speaker: C
text: Could that be something ,
speaker: C
text: or <disfmarker> ?
speaker: D
text: Also we want to go more in the triple - A area . Right ?
speaker: D
text: Because billing <pause> alone
speaker: C
text: Or is n
speaker: C
text: No <disfmarker> Well , it 's <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Or <pause> or ac um Billing is related to accounting ,
speaker: C
text: e
speaker: D
text: Accounting is related to <pause> Authentification and Authorization .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , that 's true .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: And then you are still at the triple - A service uh activity
speaker: C
text: Yeah , that 's right .
speaker: D
text: and nobody is <disfmarker> has the skills to deal with that .
speaker: D
text: And then we are leaving our scope anyway .
speaker: C
text: OK .
speaker: A
text: My impression on this proposal is that every single block <pause> has some <pause> research done already .
speaker: A
text: So , multicast . This means that there are many things done .
speaker: A
text: Oh , what was it ?
speaker: A
text: Maybe I was routing mobility management
speaker: A
text: But no one actually put them <pause> together .
speaker: D
text: Yeah . That 's <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: But <disfmarker> So that 's the big problem .
speaker: D
text: That is a <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: But the problem with this problem , might be that it 's too <pause> big
speaker: A
text: to put all these big pieces to
speaker: G
text: What do you mean by " put together " ?
speaker: A
text: So that you really have a complete <disfmarker> a complete scenario .
speaker: D
text: As it <disfmarker> What I mean , the synergy effect , right ?
speaker: D
text: From <disfmarker> from <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: You have , in one scenario , multicast , <pause> quality of service , routing <pause> and mobile <pause> um networking .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: G
text: Ah .
speaker: G
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: A
text: Not just <pause> the islands alone .
speaker: D
text: Yeah . I
speaker: G
text: So why I wasn't ,
speaker: G
text: well , yeah , uh hold myself back a bit with comments , is uh cuz when I left the discussion , the discussion was what to <disfmarker> to have something like a big umbrella about everybody <pause> who was at this point , here .
speaker: G
text: And so the discussion was much broader than it is maybe right now .
speaker: G
text: And there I had the impression the umbrella was this kind of classroom <pause> thing .
speaker: G
text: Right ?
speaker: G
text: Or <pause> wrong ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah , in principle , it is related to the current state .
speaker: D
text: But the networking stuff is more explained in much more detail
speaker: G
text: Yeah , yeah , yeah . It is .
speaker: G
text: Of course .
speaker: D
text: and the work packages are better ident oder what c could be derived for work packages is much better aligned .
speaker: G
text: Yeah .
speaker: G
text: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
speaker: G
text: That 's <disfmarker> that 's clear .
speaker: D
text: But that has not changed , yeah ?
speaker: G
text: But
speaker: G
text: Yeah , that 's <disfmarker> that 's clear ,
speaker: G
text: but then I don't get <disfmarker>
speaker: G
text: because when we were discussion <disfmarker> discussing this uh stuff weeks ago , uh I had the impression that , you know , everything of these work packages <pause> uh fit together under this one big umbrella .
speaker: G
text: And now it sounds different .
speaker: G
text: So that 's what I don't understand .
speaker: G
text: Ah but , it 's also because I missed <pause> the last four weeks .
speaker: G
text: So .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , the problem is if you <disfmarker>
speaker: G
text: It 's a <disfmarker> a bit hard for me to follow the development what happened in the last four weeks ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah OK maybe one sentence <disfmarker> one sentence .
speaker: G
text: why it changed so .
speaker: D
text: If you 're <pause> focussing on the argument chain as follows . I have an application .
speaker: D
text: This application has certain kind of requirements .
speaker: D
text: These requirements are , maybe , Multicast and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and quality of service and mobility
speaker: D
text: access and then mobility management
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> <pause> That is it .
speaker: D
text: I want to focus on it .
speaker: D
text: Then you have in mind that <disfmarker> Or you must have in mind that all other applications and all other networking stuff is not affected by this .
speaker: D
text: That you can use it with every application
speaker: D
text: and if you introduce some new mechanism in the network , that is not related only to interactive multimedia applications like the classroom , it must be fit end to end .
speaker: D
text: And if you assume something , like we discussed it , very hard with <disfmarker> with Multicast , that you assume that Multicast will be available <pause> at certain portions of the network or <pause> if you <disfmarker> if you want to have it end to end , this mechanism must be applied really for <disfmarker> all throughout of the internet .
speaker: D
text: Otherwise it makes no sense ,
speaker: D
text: and we come to the conclusion , " OK , uh Multicast , we must deal with both approaches " ,
speaker: D
text: that you have eh application layer Multicast
speaker: D
text: as well as maybe some other Multicast and maybe really Multicast
speaker: D
text: and then the point is how to select these mechanism if you want to have not a certain kind of access to the server elsewhere in the network you want to use any application .
speaker: G
text: So if I understandi it right , what has changed is before we were focussing on <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah ,
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker>
speaker: G
text: So <disfmarker> Cuz what 's difficult for me is what is meant by " application " ?
speaker: G
text: So . Cuz I have sometimes the impression that everybody is defining " application " in different way .
speaker: G
text: So , what exactly is mean by " application " ?
speaker: D
text: The application , for instance , here , that eh the interactive classroom .
speaker: D
text: But elsewhere any application in in in any kind of video audio
speaker: G
text: Yeah .
speaker: G
text: Oh , OK .
speaker: G
text: So , what has changed <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: or whatever kind of <disfmarker> game server
speaker: D
text: what - whatever kind of interactive multimedia especially do uh downstreaming applications maybe eh video on demand then , eh whatever kind of application you can consider .
speaker: G
text: So what has changed is that we 're not only focussing on this intelligent classroom , but on everything .
speaker: D
text: Not on everything .
speaker: D
text: That 's not true .
speaker: D
text: But we s
speaker: D
text: That 's why we say here , that we have a certain kind of eh possibility to change in the access networks .
speaker: G
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: That means the wireless networks
speaker: D
text: because that provides , in principle , the mobility .
speaker: D
text: And these mechan
speaker: D
text: And you see that there 's a trend to provide IP functionality more and more in these kind of networks .
speaker: D
text: But the problem is that you could not focus <pause> on this kind of um technology only for the access network .
speaker: D
text: You have to have in mind always the end to end scope .
speaker: D
text: And if you see , for instance <disfmarker> We have routing algorithm but different protocols and whatever kinds of things , u
speaker: D
text: especially also for Multicast ,
speaker: D
text: different things really for different providers ,
speaker: D
text: and uh and it 's uh very easy to change it , maybe in the access network , for novel things .
speaker: D
text: For instance , that 's one provider domain
speaker: D
text: and you can say well why not use active routing in that provider domain ?
speaker: D
text: So it means that <pause> packet are delivering information ,
speaker: D
text: and you do not have the separation of routing and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and forwarding process .
speaker: D
text: It 's impossible to deal with that in the whole internet ,
speaker: D
text: because security reasons and whatever kinds of things make it impossible .
speaker: D
text: So how to combine these pos uh potential um extensions in the um access networks , and <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: without losing the end to end scope <pause> in the internet .
speaker: D
text: Then you can have certain n novel features
speaker: D
text: give the providers like KPN or whatever , the po the potential , in principle , to <disfmarker> to uh <pause> see the building blocks for the future networks
speaker: D
text: because <pause> there 's a three g third generation like UMTS , a fourth generation more IP related .
speaker: D
text: There will be a fifth generation , I 'm sure .
speaker: D
text: And then you derive the certain kind of building blocks for this network ,
speaker: D
text: if you ever really full I <disfmarker> uh uh full I P , end to end .
speaker: D
text: But nevertheless you can only <disfmarker> not only focus on " OK , I provide this mechanism "
speaker: D
text: because u you are accessing a certain kind of server node in the internet , using any application .
speaker: D
text: And then this mechanism must fit it there .
speaker: D
text: But nevertheless eh internet backbone is in the meantime , based on its success ,
speaker: D
text: impossible to change .
speaker: D
text: You see the difficulties with IP version six ,
speaker: D
text: eh eh you see the difficulties with Multicast .
speaker: D
text: They are discussed since , you know , ten years or whatever .
speaker: D
text: The specification are rather stable and <disfmarker> and available
speaker: D
text: but we have only islands in that .
speaker: D
text: We cannot assume that everything is end to end available .
speaker: D
text: And so you have to mi to have to have in mind <pause> that certain kinds of mechanisms are <pause> maybe at a certain stage end to end available ,
speaker: D
text: maybe we have a lucky that <pause> the islands are connected to each other
speaker: D
text: or <disfmarker> the same applies for MPLS , for instance ,
speaker: D
text: maybe they are only portions available ,
speaker: D
text: how to deal with that when the islands are not available
speaker: D
text: and maybe nothing is available .
speaker: D
text: But you have to select it
speaker: D
text: because I have a mobile phone , a mobile node or whatever kind of device ,
speaker: D
text: and I want to contact a certain kind of <pause> content in the internet .
speaker: D
text: So is it possible to d have certain kind of normal features in the access network without losing the end to end scope of <disfmarker> with these difficulties we are dealing with .
speaker: D
text: I always say that the success of internet make it unflexible .
speaker: D
text: It 's impossible to change something <comment> <pause> very easy . s
speaker: D
text: s
speaker: D
text: It 's easy maybe more on the access network as in the internet backbone .
speaker: D
text: So that is eh overall picture that we have in mind with these things .
speaker: D
text: And we can not u
speaker: D
text: We <disfmarker> we are six people
speaker: D
text: or seven or whatever
speaker: D
text: if Hannes come ,
speaker: D
text: We are not able to solve the problems uh in <disfmarker> in uh w in the few years or whatever
speaker: D
text: what the whole internet community has um done in <disfmarker> in <disfmarker> si since <disfmarker> uh since a decade .
speaker: D
text: But we can f pick up some f some um potential and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> to start with something .
speaker: D
text: And that 's my missing point .
speaker: D
text: That we have here , in principle , really the description of this problem I mentioned
speaker: D
text: and focus really on the reasonable size of the project
speaker: D
text: maybe in the first stage fo for the NSA <pause> core itself ,
speaker: D
text: and maybe possible extension from , for instance , if KPN say " yes , that 's great , "
speaker: D
text: " that 's the right direction .
speaker: D
text: We will support that . "
speaker: D
text: And if Siemens say " OK , great , we will support it " ,
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and what <disfmarker> it <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: mmm University of Berlin or something
speaker: D
text: and maybe University of Mannheim or Duisburg
speaker: D
text: or <pause> in Spain oder whatever .
speaker: D
text: So if we have all the similar project then you have only to take care about that 's <pause> a little bit aligned ,
speaker: D
text: that there 's some transparency concerning the results
speaker: D
text: and and the activities are literally going in the <disfmarker> in the same um pace .
speaker: D
text: So that 's the basic idea .
speaker: D
text: But really it 's to <disfmarker> to figure out certain kind of smaller activities where we can start it .
speaker: D
text: That 's the point .
speaker: D
text: And if we get some funding back ,
speaker: D
text: and we have certain <pause> potent uh potential partners in the boat ,
speaker: D
text: OK , we can go to a broader scope of this <pause> whole thing , yeah .
speaker: B
text: u
speaker: B
text: Let me <disfmarker> let me propose a <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> a <disfmarker> a reasoning way .
speaker: B
text: Uh let 's assume that we are successful with this proposal ,
speaker: B
text: so we get the funding to do whatever what we want to do .
speaker: B
text: So my question is , what we want to do is ?
speaker: B
text: Let 's assume that we have the funding .
speaker: B
text: What will be our first and or <disfmarker> or and second steps ?
speaker: B
text: Ah , what kind of things uh we <disfmarker> eh we will buy ,
speaker: B
text: what kind of things we will eh program or we will deploy ?
speaker: B
text: Because answering this <disfmarker> these questions <pause> we can <pause> know much better <pause> what the application we want .
speaker: B
text: So let 's assume <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but the problem is <pause> that f f f funding is the second step .
speaker: C
text: Mmm .
speaker: C
text: N
speaker: C
text: Well , I 'm not sure .
speaker: C
text: I <disfmarker> I th I think I agree with him .
speaker: C
text: But uh right now we 're looking at b a th You want to do a big thing <pause> instead of a great thing .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So if you d assume that it should connect uh really good to Siemens and to uh KPN , and to the <disfmarker> then it starts to get big we should all go to the <disfmarker> in the same direction .
speaker: C
text: If you already assume " well , OK , they paid money " , and now you think , OK , what <disfmarker> what great thing you want to do , then <pause> it gives you more freedom to think <pause> about this great thing you want to m do .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , but we have no eh <disfmarker> current no public funding ,
speaker: C
text: No .
speaker: D
text: OK , everybody 's paid here .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Yeah , but <disfmarker> but <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: But you <disfmarker> but you don't get one if you <disfmarker> if you try to <disfmarker> to align KPN with Siemens , for instance .
speaker: G
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: But <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: But for theoretical <disfmarker> or for historical reasons <pause> a really good question , " if we would have the money what would we do with that ? "
speaker: C
text: Uh .
speaker: A
text: So if we don't know what we would like to do with the money , we probably wouldn't get any money to do what we don't know .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: That 's right .
speaker: B
text: Absolutely .
speaker: D
text: That 's right .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: So that 's why , I think , yeah , it 's a good question .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Now , that 's the point why I am focussing on <disfmarker> more on the <disfmarker>
speaker: A
text: Yep .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: I want to have really the activities
speaker: D
text: you know , what is really the outcome
speaker: D
text: what is really the problem we are going to solve .
speaker: D
text: These are my questions .
speaker: D
text: And if we have identified this block then it is possible to raise some money .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: A
text: That 's just the same question just other way around .
speaker: B
text: Let <disfmarker> let me put an example .
speaker: B
text: You know I <disfmarker> Some days ago , I bought , like some of you , this kind of things .
speaker: B
text: This is a PDA
speaker: B
text: eh three com uh Palm Pilot compatible ,
speaker: A
text: Modernistic stuff !
speaker: B
text: nothing <disfmarker> nothing that great ,
speaker: A
text: Completely useless !
speaker: B
text: but it has some <disfmarker> some possibility of <pause> being expanded .
speaker: B
text: But the point is eh , the only <disfmarker> in here <disfmarker> The only thing <disfmarker> wireless thing I can put on <disfmarker> on this is just uh this Omnisky modem ,
speaker: B
text: which is uh , I think it is a subscription - based uh thing .
speaker: B
text: You have to pay every <disfmarker> every month ,
speaker: B
text: and eh of course , I cannot imagine that uh tomorrow I 'll be able to buy a different thing with four different networks ,
speaker: B
text: four different providers on it .
speaker: B
text: Maybe I 'm wrong
speaker: B
text: but
speaker: B
text: if I have the funding I say " OK , well , I can buy this or even I can buy a mobile computer ,
speaker: B
text: a notebook " .
speaker: B
text: OK ?
speaker: B
text: A lot more expensive ,
speaker: B
text: but <pause> that 's OK ,
speaker: B
text: I have the funding
speaker: B
text: Then I can add a couple of cards at most ,
speaker: B
text: because mmm the majority of the <disfmarker> of the notebooks only have two PC cards uh type two slots .
speaker: B
text: So
speaker: B
text: In <disfmarker> in the better case , maybe I 'm only able to add two different networks to this thing .
speaker: B
text: So ah
speaker: B
text: the difficulty I see is that <pause> ah if we are <disfmarker> if you want to think in <disfmarker> in two three four different technologies um , maybe we are uh too advanced too , um , let 's say , uh too in advance for the current technology .
speaker: B
text: Which is not bad ,
speaker: B
text: but uh , I 'm just saying that it will be able <disfmarker> It will <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Sorry .
speaker: B
text: It will be difficult for us to develop a <disfmarker> a reasonable test bed with the available technology .
speaker: B
text: If somebody tell us , " OK , now here you have the thing , and just put these four networks you want on the thing . " How can I do it now ?
speaker: B
text: So mmm
speaker: B
text: I 'm still trying to <disfmarker> you know , to get used to the uh <disfmarker> all the ideas
speaker: B
text: and to see that all the things are really connecting
speaker: B
text: because this the eh most difficult thing I see to <disfmarker> to <disfmarker> to get this alignment to this connection point <pause> among the different things we are trying to align .
speaker: B
text: So that 's why I was proposing this <disfmarker> this question .
speaker: B
text: Let 's assume we have the funding .
speaker: B
text: Now let 's proceed .
speaker: B
text: What <disfmarker> what kind of things we can buy , we can put together , we can program .
speaker: B
text: Because oh at the end uh somebody will uh be asking us " OK , did you do your homework ?
speaker: B
text: Did you do what you <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: So .
speaker: D
text: It 's clear .
speaker: D
text: Now from my point of view in the beginning , one more time , if I see the four building blocks , and eh I could speak only for my skills , I believe to derive a certain kind of QS Reservation - in - Advance scheme Much more uh general as it is done for <disfmarker> for USAIA ,
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: but mapped then really to desired network subnet layer technologies .
speaker: B
text: But for different networks ?
speaker: D
text: Yes .
speaker: B
text: The point is for
speaker: D
text: For <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: No , for y UMTS .
speaker: D
text: But first of all , a generic system ,
speaker: D
text: but because you can have several mechanism
speaker: D
text: really using certain kind of <disfmarker> of um um quantitative description ,
speaker: D
text: you can have more of a <pause> qualitative description ,
speaker: D
text: you can have taken into account moving patterns ,
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> and <pause> whatever kind of things ,
speaker: D
text: but there are a lot of <disfmarker> lot of ways to have certain kind of QS Reservation - in - Advance ,
speaker: D
text: and I see it as definitely is necessary to have this one
speaker: D
text: if I want be mobile and I want to have not a interruption of my <disfmarker> in my application qualities of service .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: Um
speaker: D
text: But then , to go , for instance , to UMTS , and figure out what is available within UMTS .
speaker: D
text: And if I really have an IP application , where I need this kind of <disfmarker> of <pause> quality of service and having in mind that certain kind of <pause> QS will be available in the <pause> rest of the internet .
speaker: D
text: So how can I map these things uh to the UMTS stuff ?
speaker: D
text: And what is the trend towards UMTS to the first generation ?
speaker: D
text: And how it is possible to map this one to this technology ?
speaker: D
text: And if you have the building blocks identified , what is really necessary <pause> for QS <disfmarker> eh QS - in - Advance for <disfmarker> for mobile systems , then you have , in principle , the ideas for the following generation what you could improve .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Because then you are <pause> maybe no more related to this kind of thing .
speaker: D
text: I believe the same applies for Multicast .
speaker: D
text: And I believe the same applies for routing .
speaker: D
text: So , in principle , in the beginning , there would be a certain kind of uh paperwork anyway ,
speaker: D
text: some theoretical examination of these problems ,
speaker: B
text: I think so
speaker: D
text: and then <pause> some prototypes must be derived from that .
speaker: D
text: And then <pause> maybe we will start here with a certain kind of uh testbed equipment we still have here .
speaker: D
text: We have four uh P Cs available .
speaker: D
text: Maybe we have to extend it then ,
speaker: D
text: and figure out some real scenarios ,
speaker: D
text: and maybe then pfff !
speaker: B
text: Oh yeah .
speaker: D
text: Because uh , despite the fa
speaker: D
text: uh uh Hopefully , then we have with the money also not eh only for the room ,
speaker: B
text: W
speaker: D
text: that would be great ,
speaker: D
text: but there are also some sponsors then then then we add a certain kind of field trial .
speaker: D
text: But I think that 's <disfmarker> <pause> pfff ! <comment> that 's years , you know .
speaker: B
text: A long way , yeah .
speaker: D
text: That 's years .
speaker: B
text: That 's right .
speaker: D
text: But in the beginning we must have a certain kind of <pause> theoretical framework with the relevant technology .
speaker: D
text: Real technology .
speaker: D
text: Maybe you can start with GPS or <disfmarker> or UMTS , or whatever .
speaker: D
text: because these technology will definitely available in Europe .
speaker: D
text: There 's some money <pause> spent on it ,
speaker: D
text: so that it will be in a certain kind of flavor .
speaker: D
text: It will be available .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: And it will be also available in the USA .
speaker: D
text: Because there is a big eh harmonization effort ,
speaker: D
text: despite the fact they are <pause> not aligned to each other anyway ,
speaker: D
text: but <pause> they will have s also certain kind of thr third generation and fourth generation networks .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: And after this theoretical framework , if this one is aligned , OK you have some specification
speaker: D
text: and you set up some Linux or Free BSD or whatever kind of prototype .
speaker: D
text: So that is what I have in mind with that .
speaker: D
text: And then <disfmarker> OK , and then you will see .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: The problem is <disfmarker> which I see is that it could be fruitful to standardization
speaker: D
text: that it could be fruitful to some extent to telecommunication providers .
speaker: D
text: But there 's not a real product like you say .
speaker: D
text: There 's not the selling idea behind it .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Yeah ,
speaker: D
text: if you go with something what <disfmarker> what Wilbert mentioned " OK , let 's have this one here " . We have a new PCMCIA card and <disfmarker> and extend something and the end system , or what you mentioned here was the seamless four technologies inter - working in the end s , then you have an <disfmarker> an <disfmarker> a device which you can sell .
speaker: D
text: If you go for a networking pfff <comment> um uh improvements , in principle , and <disfmarker> and understanding next generation building blocks , uh there 's no product .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: But it is a long term <disfmarker> it 's long term , I think , uh work you can do .
speaker: D
text: And it 's more related I believe to the skills
speaker: D
text: to what is available
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and currently as I see what uh will be available within the NSA group .
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: And uh , the point is if we focus on <disfmarker> on this networking <disfmarker> small <disfmarker> more networking stuff and em some application guys came into the boat and they focus on their application stuff , whatever this means , It might be we have then the active classroom ,
speaker: D
text: but it could be another one
speaker: D
text: that is not representative ,
speaker: G
text: Yeah but there 's something needed to sell it .
speaker: D
text: it 's only <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Hmm ?
speaker: G
text: And I think <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Then <disfmarker> then is something available
speaker: D
text: but I don't know
speaker: D
text: you know , I 'm not an application expert ,
speaker: D
text: I <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: We have some content .
speaker: D
text: We will then discuss it on next Tuesday as I mentioned .
speaker: B
text: Bless you .
speaker: G
text: Bless you .
speaker: D
text: Uh Anyway , but uh that were <disfmarker> is my answer to the question if some money is available .
speaker: D
text: The good thing is that the money is available ,
speaker: D
text: because everybody is paid here .
speaker: D
text: So that is money that the <disfmarker> the smallest portion of money which is available .
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: But first of all Wilbert need more , definitely ,
speaker: D
text: because maybe then KPN is uh no more interesting to go on with this work ,
speaker: D
text: or we can convince with these kind of things which we have in mind ,
speaker: D
text: uh companies like KPN .
speaker: D
text: So
speaker: D
text: And if we have other suggestions and eh have this as a long term
speaker: D
text: NSA core group activity ,
speaker: D
text: and this theoretical framework , whether it is finished in half a year or one year doesn't matter , in principle ,
speaker: D
text: because the road map for the <disfmarker> the next generation networks is <disfmarker> is eh <disfmarker> is for many years .
speaker: D
text: And b before UMTS will be deployed very well , I believe eh it will be common t uh two thousand four or something like that .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker> and have <pause> an intermediate project , which is related in this direction , something like the seamless handover for two technologies or whatever .
speaker: D
text: This is a smaller portion in the gen more generic framework , I would like to say , from this proposal .
speaker: D
text: Why not go in this way ?
speaker: B
text: OK
speaker: D
text: I <disfmarker> I don't know .
speaker: D
text: But uh that 's the point eh we are sitting here together .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: But <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: But for <disfmarker> for Dietmar I think eh eh he mentioned it to me , it 's very clear that he will go on with a portion of time , with this USAIA stuff ,
speaker: E
text: That 's right .
speaker: E
text: It depends on my <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: in the matical sense
speaker: D
text: because that means for you in a certain kind <disfmarker> a certain extent , you are decoupled from networking stuff .
speaker: D
text: Because your focusing on the mathematical thing of whether it 's a network or other thing ,
speaker: E
text: Well , I 'm foc
speaker: D
text: it doesn't matter <disfmarker>
speaker: E
text: I 'm focused on performance evaluation
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: and um <disfmarker> especially of communication networks
speaker: E
text: and <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: E
text: I never eh e um dealed with um mobile communications .
speaker: E
text: So why not ?
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: So .
speaker: E
text: So that 's eh , to open my mind .
speaker: D
text: There is it still ongoing activity with uh maybe a portion of time at the University of Berlin <disfmarker> Berlin .
speaker: D
text: And independently whether I will leave the uh uh ICSI in <disfmarker> in the mid of December or not , I will still focus on <disfmarker> on <disfmarker> on these QS - in - Advance schemes
speaker: D
text: eh also within Siemens
speaker: D
text: and also with some project there .
speaker: D
text: And I believe your routing stuff is also available ,
speaker: B
text: Hmm - mmm .
speaker: D
text: uh ,
speaker: D
text: And when you <disfmarker> when you will go back to Spain , right ?
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: Yeah . Sure .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , so . and <disfmarker> and that 's why , in principle , the skills will be always available I guess .
speaker: B
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: And <disfmarker> and
speaker: D
text: if there is a certain type of project in the home countries and then the <pause> eh institutions and <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: N Not only this .
speaker: B
text: We can even use this u platform to <disfmarker> to get some European projects in the future
speaker: B
text: because you know , sometimes eh it 's a good thing <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: yeah
speaker: D
text: maybe
speaker: D
text: Currently no money is available , you know .
speaker: B
text: Yeah but <pause> uh , this will <disfmarker> I think w This will improve over time , I 'm sure .
speaker: B
text: So uh <disfmarker>
speaker: B
text: Probably .
speaker: B
text: You know , this kind of joint work of different countries de companies , universities . <pause> This is usually the best ah <disfmarker> the best place to <disfmarker> to put a project on .
speaker: B
text: Because it is involving different partners from different points of <disfmarker> of Europe .
speaker: D
text: Now , I will not prevent anybody from getting some cake
speaker: D
text: and we are sitting here together
speaker: D
text: it 's uh very uh very slow , in principle ,
speaker: D
text: but my last question is for Wilbert .
speaker: D
text: Wilbert , you I <disfmarker> I think you got the basic idea
speaker: D
text: because it was mostly discussed with you here from this current available scrap project proposal .
speaker: D
text: Don't you think that KPN could be convinced to go on this way what I mentioned before ?
speaker: D
text: There 's no way ?
speaker: C
text: No .
speaker: D
text: They needed definitely , in principle , some kind of service or device or product or whatever .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: That 's right now the s the status .
speaker: C
text: Yes .
speaker: D
text: Can we both have together , maybe , I think it 's a little bit more easier , a discussion on Thursday ?
speaker: C
text: I 'm out for th one <disfmarker> a week and a half .
speaker: C
text: So on Wednesday , Thursday , Friday , I have a workshop at Stanford
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: C
text: and next week I have a week on holiday .
speaker: D
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: Maybe that 's enough time for you to consider a little bit more in this direction ?
speaker: C
text: Could be .
speaker: D
text: And then we could have eh discussion
speaker: D
text: and maybe this one is an overall work , in principle , where everybody could hook in and <disfmarker> and get certain kind of small portions to solve it
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker> so the only solution would <disfmarker> for <disfmarker> for KPN would be that there is a p a project in this area .
speaker: D
text: and
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker> that makes sense to do in this ar This , I mean the Bay Area
speaker: B
text: Hm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: with a group of uh a few people ,
speaker: C
text: like four or something ,
speaker: C
text: and that connects to this project .
speaker: C
text: So , one somebody or two somebodies can be found uh founded <pause> or get money to join this project .
speaker: C
text: But that the other four should build a service on top of it , that has a clear business focus .
speaker: D
text: mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: It means eh a <disfmarker> a UMTS service basically .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Can you consider poten also in the meantime , some potential UMTS services besides this one ?
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: Yeah , but you see the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> they ask something pretty strange .
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: They <disfmarker> they want something pretty strange from me that I think of a service ,
speaker: C
text: a network service .
speaker: C
text: There are sixty million billion people in the <vocalsound> <disfmarker> in the world that think of services all day
speaker: C
text: and try to make a lot of money with it in the form of start - ups or whatever .
speaker: C
text: And just think of a service like that , if I could do this .
speaker: D
text: No , but , uh fff <comment> maybe based on this one and you see the networking stuff
speaker: C
text: w
speaker: D
text: that it is a little bit more evol evolved and <disfmarker> than in the <disfmarker> the core network technology in the access network , I would like to say .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: And this is aligned then as much as possible to the internet .
speaker: D
text: That 's the basic idea ,
speaker: D
text: that you can have a certain kind of service which make use of these novel things .
speaker: C
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Because normally I <disfmarker> I believe the <disfmarker> the <disfmarker> the people are either on the application layer ,
speaker: C
text: I <disfmarker> you know <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: that means higher than layer four ,
speaker: D
text: or they are on layer f one to l l up to layer four .
speaker: C
text: Bu
speaker: D
text: And the service people are considering
speaker: D
text: " OK , UMTS
speaker: D
text: you have some location information ,
speaker: D
text: and maybe you are <disfmarker> have the infrastructure in the car ,
speaker: D
text: so , if I provide a certain kind of service , independently what the network is offering , you know .
speaker: D
text: Because they do not consider it very well .
speaker: D
text: They know there is a certain kind of location information
speaker: D
text: and you have a GPS ,
speaker: D
text: and they know , OK , it 's based on satellite .
speaker: D
text: And there 's UMTS , that is based on base station .
speaker: D
text: There 's all that they consider .
speaker: D
text: And then assume , OK , I can do that .
speaker: D
text: And the networking guy said OK it would be great to have Multicast and all these kind of things in the network ,
speaker: D
text: but do not consider really what a sense of benefit uh for applications ,
speaker: D
text: there were new app old application make use of it
speaker: D
text: and how can new application arise
speaker: D
text: which we haven't considered up to now based on this new network function , LAT enrich <disfmarker> enriched network function , LAT .
speaker: D
text: So , I think it 's worth to <disfmarker> to consider something in that way
speaker: C
text: Well , u until now I have been trying to think about it ,
speaker: C
text: but eh f to me u
speaker: C
text: what I have every <disfmarker> every time I encountered it , it is all <disfmarker> this is all pretty close by ,
speaker: C
text: like the industry is already behind this .
speaker: D
text: Yeah , what is our <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: So they <disfmarker> they want to make this available pretty soon .
speaker: C
text: So I 'm just trying to think uh m more ahead , like uh use the wireless device as a <disfmarker> only as a signalling thing or something .
speaker: C
text: So <disfmarker> so whenever you come in with your uh GSM phone and there is a PC available , like everything will be directed to the <disfmarker> the bigger device or something .
speaker: C
text: So more services like that .
speaker: C
text: I think <pause> the they are working pretty hard to get IP available very good and efficiently from uh two mobile devices or wireless devices .
speaker: D
text: Not currently there is a techno technology split .
speaker: C
text: a th thing
speaker: D
text: Of course you have IP in the mobile device
speaker: D
text: but if you see the strange protocols text
speaker: D
text: there 's IP over IP and tunnels and <disfmarker> and whatever ,
speaker: D
text: so , but it 's uh looks very strange to me
speaker: D
text: because you have different numbering screens , concerning you have a phone number ,
speaker: D
text: you have to map it to IP addresses
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and so on ,
speaker: D
text: but for me , you have not the end to end parts of for <disfmarker> for IP functionality .
speaker: D
text: We are far away from that .
speaker: D
text: And if you take a really look to the GPRS protocols texts and I believe also they apply for UMTS but I 'm not
speaker: D
text: eh very familiar with that ,
speaker: D
text: and the next generations access network is <disfmarker> will come soon .
speaker: D
text: You see it 's every three years or four years they will have a new generation .
speaker: C
text: And there 's a <disfmarker> We m
speaker: D
text: But anyway you <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Our group might fo want to focus on the uh IP over ether no nets
speaker: D
text: yeah ?
speaker: D
text: yeah ?
speaker: C
text: or something like
speaker: C
text: or over ether <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Why ?
speaker: D
text: What kind <disfmarker> what kind <disfmarker> IP over what do you call it ?
speaker: C
text: N no nets ,
speaker: D
text: No net .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: That would be great !
speaker: C
text: Over <disfmarker>
speaker: C
text: Like only over ether .
speaker: C
text: carefully integrated for net
speaker: C
text: but there is no net .
speaker: C
text: If you want to do <disfmarker> make like also for wireless devices end to end IP available , that could be a vision .
speaker: C
text: Like .
speaker: D
text: Can you repeat it ?
speaker: C
text: Well , so he <disfmarker> he says well IP to IP or end to end IP , is far <disfmarker> <pause> well , it 's far away .
speaker: C
text: um
speaker: C
text: So you <disfmarker> what you might want to do is well get U M T S out there
speaker: C
text: and just do uh I Ps playing over radio .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: Something like that is my final vision .
speaker: C
text: Like <disfmarker> like SDH , IP over fiber or WDM - WDM .
speaker: D
text: Mm - hmm .
speaker: C
text: This gets rid of the SDH .
speaker: C
text: Or , well , start with get rid of the ATM first
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: ATM stuff .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: C
text: and then get rid of SDH .
speaker: D
text: There 's <disfmarker> the problem is <disfmarker> is , you see that the providers eh have always there broken view for <disfmarker> for the management .
speaker: D
text: If you have different kind of protocols texts and network management system , and the billing system and all these kinds of things which is besides the networking stuff , in principle , but you still need it , is eh not aligned .
speaker: C
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: We have it for different islands
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and
speaker: D
text: Well , that 's my final vision you know .
speaker: D
text: If you have really then IP networks at a certain generation where you have really the physical media and where necessary uh additional maclear protocols ,
speaker: D
text: and then you have really always end to end .
speaker: D
text: It makes you things much more simple much more easier ,
speaker: B
text: Uh .
speaker: D
text: uh , but is far far away , you know .
speaker: B
text: Unless <disfmarker> unless we speak about quality of service ,
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: B
text: which is not eh embedded on <disfmarker> on IP services .
speaker: D
text: Yeah but you have the extension for the eh quality of service mechanism
speaker: B
text: Yeah , but <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: which you have to map then to the underlying technology .
speaker: B
text: Yeah but for example nobody 's really using RSVP .
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: Yeah but maybe in the LAN interface it makes
speaker: D
text: since to use it
speaker: C
text: Eh you guys do that discussion later on please ,
speaker: D
text: And <disfmarker> and <disfmarker> But
speaker: D
text: yeah
speaker: C
text: uh ?
speaker: D
text: but I think we sh we will miss the cake
speaker: B
text: OK , sorry , sorry .
speaker: C
text: RSVP .
speaker: D
text: and I think we should stop now but please everybody ,
speaker: D
text: short
speaker: D
text: eh s
speaker: D
text: go on with considerations and potential
speaker: D
text: and <disfmarker> and uh
speaker: D
text: um we didn't make s much progress today in the meeting ,
speaker: D
text: but anyway this kind of activity lives from all , from the input of all .
speaker: D
text: And so I really
speaker: D
text: if somebody has an idea send an email
speaker: D
text: and then I would like to enforce everybody
speaker: D
text: not that I 'm doing everything
speaker: D
text: I could not <disfmarker> I f didn't have the time in the past
speaker: D
text: and I will not have it in the future
speaker: D
text: and maybe I will stay here only s four weeks or five weeks .
speaker: D
text: So it would be really not the best thing if the activity is dead when I am leaving
speaker: D
text: and if I stay longer of course we can go on
speaker: D
text: but nevertheless I rely heavily uh also from the contributions of everybody ,
speaker: D
text: and it 's in their own interest
speaker: B
text: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
speaker: B
text: That 's right .
speaker: D
text: of <disfmarker> of everybody , also from the institution behind . So If there is certain kind of idea or questions or whatever , we are s only a small group of people
speaker: D
text: we can easily join on a white board and <disfmarker> and start a discussion .
speaker: B
text: Well , if <pause> Klaus <disfmarker>
speaker: D
text: It must not be on every Tuesday , you know ,
speaker: B
text: OK .
speaker: D
text: at a certain time .
speaker: D
text: And I try to motivate the people .
speaker: D
text: That it 's free .
speaker: D
text: That 's a starting .
speaker: D
text: That 's a ramp .
speaker: D
text: And we can go in different directions .
speaker: D
text: And if you have a real focus on the certain novel thing for the services or UMTS or whatever , great .
speaker: D
text: If not , the long term and then these things must be , nevertheless <disfmarker> must be defined in much more detail .
speaker: D
text: Yeah .
speaker: D
text: OK ?
speaker: D
text: So , thanks
speaker: B
text: OK
speaker: C
text: OK
speaker: D
text: please do not , um what Adam mentioned to
speaker: E
text: Not to switch off .
speaker: D
text: uh switch off ,
speaker: C
text: Don't switch it off .
speaker: G
text: Do not <disfmarker> Don't switch it off .
speaker: B
text: OK ,
speaker: B
text: yeah , that 's right .
speaker: D
text: So maybe I will find him @ @ .
speaker: B
text: Oh , can you call Adam ?
speaker: D
text: cake area .
speaker: B
text: At this number ?
speaker: D
text: and
speaker: D
text: now let me see whether he will be here ,
speaker: D
text: and
speaker: D
text: We did not forget .
speaker: D
text: We are done .
speaker: F
text: Yeah , just leave them on for now .
speaker: F
text: Sometimes if you turn it off while it 's recording it crashes
speaker: D
text: OK <pause> OK .
speaker: D
text: Hopefully everything went fine .

Meeting summary:
text: This should just give a general sense of anything that happens
    in the meeting that you think would be a useful summary for the
    target user:  generally speaking, why are they meeting and
    what do they talk about?
text: In most of the meetings, the group will make some decisions
    wrt the problems they discuss.
text: In some meetings, there may be some open problems,
    or problems they come up with.
text: In a group research meeting, they will introduce what they have done,
    ie, progress or achievements so far.