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Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

How do you guys feel about physical punishment of children? I was spanked until I was 13 but very rarely and I remember getting slapped on the face when I said some really vile things once or twice, but other than that, I do not remember ever being hit. Spanking usually consisted of several swift smacks on the bottomusually through clothing with the hand, enough to sting for a few minutes. I do not disagree with the type of discipline I receivedhey, it fucking worked and I was a good kid for the most part but then again, I also believe that children are so much smarter than we give them credit for and spanking or hitting assumes a lack of intelligence on the part of the child. If you assume they're stupid, they'll act stupid. Agree?
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I don't agree that spanking a child results in obedience or even teaches them a lesson. Spanking is a form of humiliation, and to humiliate a child is wrong. It is wrong to do to adults spanking an adult without their consent is considered an assault. Why is this not so with children? Why do children still not have the rights to their own bodies that adults enjoy? It is my personal belief that a child should not be put through that sort of treatment at such a important developmental time in their lives. It is true that they may grow up to consider it an experience that hardened them to the ways of the world, or something along those lines, but the fact remains that they were hit, and they did not consent to it. I feel that any sort of physical punishment or aggression, especially towards a child, is wrong and damaging, not only to their self-esteem, but also to their relationship with their guardian. The real question is Does spanking instill a greater respect in the child towards their guardian figure? This is the person they are supposed to feel safe around. Ideally, they should be able to talk to about things that trouble them. This is the person a child will seek advice from, and may look up to. What does a repetitive example of violence do to a child, except grow calluses towards violence? It is my belief that children respect their parents or guardians far more if they approach disobedience with a fair, firm, and honest expression of disapproval which asks the child to reflect on their actions. Sure, this is a long-term remedy that requires just as much effort from the parent as it does from the child, but the quick-fix of slapping a child back into obedience does not do anything other than foster mistrust and fear, and perhaps resentment for their parental figure. In short, it is a guardian's responsibility to be a child's role model they will influence their children. A child will not respect what they cannot trust.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I will say this......... it is wrong to ABUSE a child. This means hitting a child with the intent to hurt or mark your child, to make them seriously cry or to instill a level of fear that they never want to come near you ever again. There is an EXTREMELY HUGE difference between doling out a spanking versus seriously hitting your child. A spanking shouldn't really hurt, more like surprise, your child. The level of pain should not really be there, not really. The difference is that you are trying to protect your child, more than likely. To teach them a lesson about safety or something along those lines or how to act appropriately so that they can function in society so that they have an easier time as they grow. Those are THE MAIN points of why any parent teaches their child anything... the rest just sort of falls in line by achieving those two main points. Anyway, I agree with a lot of with what Muffin has stated--the ages she mentioned along with the methods she's mentioned for the ages. Certain ages, I believe, can handle certain things better and it is more appropriate to approach them in certain ways. Of course, it can definitely vary from child to child. I can see this plainly every single day with my own two who are VASTLY different. I also agree that a form of discipline that becomes physical in any way should be a last resort after all other options have been exhausted. Sometimes you need to get certain serious lessons drilled into your child's head for their own good and safety, not to mention for the safety and well being of others around them. So, when it comes to that, you just might have to do certain things within reason, of course!!!. But again, you do need to use discretion and not overdo it and be appropriate with methods, etc. I firmly believe that. Because if you can find that balance, you can have an amazing relationship with your children... they will love AND respect you, not be afraid to come to you for anything because they KNOW you'll be fair and you will be the one they go to whenever they need comfort as well. They will know you do things out of worry and concern for them and they will see and understand that because kids are so smart, more so than people give them credit for.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

Nika said I don't agree that spanking a child results in obedience or even teaches them a lesson. Spanking is a form of humiliation, and to humiliate a child is wrong. It is wrong to do to adults spanking an adult without their consent is considered an assault. Why is this not so with children? Why do children still not have the rights to their own bodies that adults enjoy? It is my personal belief that a child should not be put through that sort of treatment at such a important developmental time in their lives. It is true that they may grow up to consider it an experience that hardened them to the ways of the world, or something along those lines, but the fact remains that they were hit, and they did not consent to it. I feel that any sort of physical punishment or aggression, especially towards a child, is wrong and damaging, not only to their self-esteem, but also to their relationship with their guardian. The real question is Does spanking instill a greater respect in the child towards their guardian figure? This is the person they are supposed to feel safe around. Ideally, they should be able to talk to about things that trouble them. This is the person a child will seek advice from, and may look up to. What does a repetitive example of violence do to a child, except grow calluses towards violence? It is my belief that children respect their parents or guardians far more if they approach disobedience with a fair, firm, and honest expression of disapproval which asks the child to reflect on their actions. Sure, this is a long-term remedy that requires just as much effort from the parent as it does from the child, but the quick-fix of slapping a child back into obedience does not do anything other than foster mistrust and fear, and perhaps resentment for their parental figure. In short, it is a guardian's responsibility to be a child's role model they will influence their children. A child will not respect what they cannot trust. Click to expand... I have to say that I agree with Nika wholeheartedly. Even with the moderate spanking I received, it really distanced me from my parents in regards to anything serious. I never had a problem with respect per se but became an overly secluded and emotionally stunted child. Because they were always right. Not that it's necessarily a bad thingI mean, if you want a good result from hitting your kids, them acceding to your absolute authority in all things is at the top, as opposed to outright rebellion, which I never did but I didn't really start thinking for myself or showing any motivation for independence until my 20's. Anyway, I agree that there really is no call for physical discipline if your goal is to teach a lesson or earn respect.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I was spanked as a child though rarely. I feel pretty grounded as far as most things go and have a decent relationship with my parents. Anything stemming from the discipline I got from them.... I have no hard feelings toward it at all. Plus, I can count on one hand how frequently things went 'there'. Plus, it was ALWAYS for VERY good reason and was appropriately doled out ie, how I got spanked.... Not everyone agrees with it, but I think a lot of that has to do with the individual itself. Parents need to know their children and how to communicate with them, going through the various options in how they teach them things before proceeding to discipline. Honestly, I think being a parent helps in determining how you'd deal with disciplining. Because seriously, what you think now might not be what you think later once you have a child. Every child is different and has different needs and sometimes those needs will shock the ever living hell out of you once you finally become a parent and live with it from day to day.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I would use spanking as a last resort when nothing else has worked. Abuse is when you want to hurt your child and instill fear in them - an occasional smack on the ass for them doing something really stupid and imo scary to you to experience, it warrants that kind of thing. It's not meant to hurt them, but to show them that they really scared you or really messed up and could have been hurt far, far worse than what happened to them because of you. I always find that people who think even a light tap on the ass is abuse are more closed-minded about how discipline works. But that's just from my experience and I'm not pointing any fingers here. I don't find that yelling and telling them they were so wrong for what they did works very well. Yeah, they've been reprimanded, but that's when you have to escalate the punishment if they do it again because that didn't work. And then it just cycles until you reach your last resort- whatever that might be. I was spanked maybe three times and I was slapped once by my mother for stealing and lying about it. Trust me, I haven't done it since - not because she frightened me with it or made me mistrust her- but the gravity of what I did finally settled down on me. I lost her trust and took a year to earn it back and even then it was still touch and go. I wasn't upset about getting caught but that I had lost my mother's trust. That was really hard to deal with on top of a lot of other things going on around me. But from my experience growing up, some of my friends could definitely have used a spank or two, or at least had their parents listen to them instead of just scream in their faces and think that would work. I've known several people who were abused and trust me, they didn't get spanked. They got slapped, punched, threatened, things like that. There's a line - a huge line- but some people easily cross it just because they let their anger get the better of them and it puts a huge chip on their kids' shoulders.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I didn't become dependent on my dad in such ways, but I agree, I grew distant from him, and I feel I can't really be open with him. It seems like with most parents, there's the enforcer, and then there's a friend. My mom was the friend, my dad was the enforcer. I don't think he even knows how to talk to me. My sister and I are polar opposites. At the age of 15, my sister was a regular drug abuser and got pregnant. So I feel because of his step daughters follies, he was a lot tougher on me growing up, which probably lead to my hostility towards him as I grew up. And now when he talks to me, he either lectures or he talks to me like I'm 5.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

Being a stay-at-home mother, I take on the role of both--enforcer and friend. So, I both discipline as well as comfort and nurture. Thing is, I haven't really spanked my kids yet. Haven't had the need. Then again, they are 4 and 2. I have spanked my son once and it nearly killed me to do it. But goddamn the kid nearly ran out in front of a car. I gave him a quick 2 swats to the backside for that. He knew he deserved it and he knew better than to do what he did. Problem was he wanted to run to the playground and we were getting out of the van. He wrenched his arm free from my grasp and didn't stop to look both ways something he KNOWS to do now. Luckily, I grabbed him in time. Man.... you've no idea how freaked out that made me and what was worse was that his sister tried to follow, but I had a good hold on her. So yeah. He deserved that swat. He knew it. He apologized. He didn't cry. He also got quite a talking to and I also used that time to speak to my daughter a little even if she is only 2 years old. Nothing crazy, just enough to drive home the point. And then my son had to sit out for 5 minutes before he could play. He got the picture right quick and he's never done that again. But those are situations I feel and think warrant such actions. And I'll tell you this.... my son is a total momma's boy. I might be the one disciplining, but I'm the one both go to when they get that owwie or have a bad dream or made something nifty at school. They know I'll lavish them with love and praise and talk to them about anything and everything because I want to hear what they have to say. Honestly, I like playing both roles even if it's trying at times.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I don't consider spanking humiliating unless that is the intent behind it. An example of this would be when my dad's ex-fiancee would tell her kids to grab one of the wooden spoons for her to spank them with when they did something she considered disobeying. I watched her spank her 8 year old in front of me because I happened to be in the room. I was 12. She was crying and screaming and asking for her mother to stop. I found out later that the spoon broke over her ass. Thankfully, she was wearing jeans, but that is something I find unethical, humiliating, and abuse. When your kid does something incredibly dangerous and you spank them once or twice just enough to shock them? I don't consider that even remotely the same. Especially if you talk to them about why you did it and what they did to garner that kind of punishment. I think it makes them more aware of themselves and what is going on instead of focusing solely on what they want. But I also dislike spoiled children and find that more and more of them are starting to pop up in the newest generation because some parents just don't know how to discipline properly or just don't care to be actual parents. I don't consider spanking to be a part of good parenting or discipline, but I do consider it a form of discipline that can work depending on the child. Some kids respond to groundingtime outhaving toys taken away and some kids just simply don't. Finding the balance is how parenting works, not just outright thinking that someone is a bad parent because they happen to spank their kids. I don't think that. I think a bad parent is one who pretty much lets their kid do whatever they want and barely punishes them for bad behaviors or goes overboard with punishing. Two extremes do not help anyone.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I think the humiliation part of it comes from the fact that no matter how old a person is they're still a person with thoughts and feelings and the ability to reason. Hitting someone to get an instantaneous reaction or to exert power over them is not something you would do to an adult under normal teachingpunishment circumstances. What I got out of what Nika was saying was, why is it okay to do it to a child then? They're a person too just shorter. And she wasn't saying that it was easy, the whole point was that it takes more effort and patience to express yourself to your child but that it was worth it more than just a quick smack on the behind that will leave them confused about the message you're trying to send. I think there is something to it. A firm and controlled approach rather than screaminghitting garners more respect. Also, Hahvy, I think a lot of the lack of good parenting nowadays has less to do with do I spank them or not? and more to do with an overall neglect in parenting. Parents are not there, they're too busy or they try to let television and school take care of their kids. It's not don't spank themlet them do whatever they want and run all over the place. The plan proposed is to have an actual consistent agenda and open dialogue with your child and treat them like a human being.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

As I said, explaining to them instead of just treating them like a stupid ignorant kid is part of disciplining. And I didn't say spanking is part of good parenting. I just don't believe it's humiliation unless that's the intent behind doing it. The one spanking I remember didn't make me feel humiliated, but everyone is different and the methods are different. I did something wrong that I knew better than to do and my mother explained why and spoke to me afterwards like an adult instead of a dumb kid who deserved to get hit. Not all parents do that - but the good parents do. Not all parents spank their kids but as I said, all parents are different. Teaching a lesson and humiliation are different things. I don't particularly agree with Nika, but that's just how it is. I see what she means but I don't agree with a lot of it.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

In defense of spanking in the topic of children's intelligence, can't deny that children are indeed more ignorant than adults. Not saying they're stupid, or they don't have the ability to learn and understand. But many of them do not know how to express themselves and understand and put things together like adults can. This is why kids often throw tantrums. For instance... lets say you take your kid to the store. You walk past the toy aisle and the kid sees a toy they want. They ask if they can have it, and you say no for whatever reason. Adults usually tell kids no for what we could consider adult reasons costs too much, too messy, too noisy, christmas or their birthday is coming up, etc etc. Many kids have a hard time understanding this and seeing from the adult perspective, and they will want to debate it out with you if they don't agree... as most humans do, and its understandable. But kids don't entirely know how to express themselves. They're in that transitional period in life where they just grew out of the phase where they have to cry and fuss to express their negative emotions and get your attention. This trait carries on in kids... it's just less often, and they will grow out of it for good once their understanding and vocabulary expand. But until then, when they feel you are being unjust, not understanding or hearing them out, etc., they will throw a fit and get emotional. If they're stubborn and persistent, this goes into a tantrum, which can be hard to break up, and they typically won't listen to anything being said to them or any reasoning unless they agree with it or unless people side with them. It's at this point that the parent would likely take the kid out of the store, take them to the car, spank them to kind of snap them out of their tantrum, and just shoot down the topic entirely, No! I told you that you are not getting the toy and I told you why, end of topic! They will cry and probably have another fit, but this time its typically because of the little stinging on the butt. And once that is gone, they calm down, and they may even forget about the toy in the midst of their fit. That's when the parent should apologize for doing that to them, and explain to them why they did it, and why they just could not have the toy. Then tell them that it's not in spite of them, and when the time is okay, they will get a toy, but that is not today. That's why when I was listing when spanking is okay, I cut it off at 10. 10 is when one should start trusting the intelligence of their child and more so work on making sure they definitely understand, or else they're going to have one heck of a teenager.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

MsMuffintops said In defense of spanking in the topic of children's intelligence, can't deny that children are indeed more ignorant than adults. Not saying they're stupid, or they don't have the ability to learn and understand. But many of them do not know how to express themselves and understand and put things together like adults can. This is why kids often throw tantrums. For instance... lets say you take your kid to the store. You walk past the toy aisle and the kid sees a toy they want. They ask if they can have it, and you say no for whatever reason. Adults usually tell kids no for what we could consider adult reasons costs too much, too messy, too noisy, christmas or their birthday is coming up, etc etc. Many kids have a hard time understanding this and seeing from the adult perspective, and they will want to debate it out with you if they don't agree... as most humans do, and its understandable. But kids don't entirely know how to express themselves. They're in that transitional period in life where they just grew out of the phase where they have to cry and fuss to express their negative emotions and get your attention. This trait carries on in kids... it's just less often, and they will grow out of it for good once their understanding and vocabulary expand. But until then, when they feel you are being unjust, not understanding or hearing them out, etc., they will throw a fit and get emotional. If they're stubborn and persistent, this goes into a tantrum, which can be hard to break up, and they typically won't listen to anything being said to them or any reasoning unless they agree with it or unless people side with them. It's at this point that the parent would likely take the kid out of the store, take them to the car, spank them to kind of snap them out of their tantrum, and just shoot down the topic entirely, No! I told you that you are not getting the toy and I told you why, end of topic! They will cry and probably have another fit, but this time its typically because of the little stinging on the butt. And once that is gone, they calm down, and they may even forget about the toy in the midst of their fit. That's when the parent should apologize for doing that to them, and explain to them why they did it, and why they just could not have the toy. Then tell them that it's not in spite of them, and when the time is okay, they will get a toy, but that is not today. That's why when I was listing when spanking is okay, I cut it off at 10. 10 is when one should start trusting the intelligence of their child and more so work on making sure they definitely understand, or else they're going to have one heck of a teenager. Click to expand... This I can agree with. Kids at that age are reaching the understanding point and expressing themselves by then. Even just taking them out of the store and putting them in time out until they cry it out sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. Patience is needed, which I can agree with Nika on, but children are different with what works with them. But yeah, I agree with you on this one, Muffins and most of what you've put towards the discussion.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

Comes from years of having to help care for my sisters kids. I'm pretty good with knowing when I'd prefer to spank a kid or choose something else. Again, spanking is my last resort. Even then, I don't really spank I usually swat them on the thigh with the palm of my hand. I've witnessed plenty of melt downs and in the worst of places.
Thread: Discipline vs. Abuse

I've agreed with everything Muffin has said in all of her posts in this thread and I say this as a parent of 2 small children. I think it holds a lot of insight and expresses rather eloquently everything that that goes through my head when it comes to this particular topic. So, very well said, Muffin. Very well said indeed.