=== asac_ is now known as asac [01:03] pitti: typo. it's iain-farrell. Will change it later, when LP is out of read-only mode again. [01:33] aaarg [01:34] stupid read only launchpad ate the work items I added [01:34] and I didn't save my work :( [01:34] pitti, looks like I failed to get the work items on, I'll do it tomorrow [01:36] rickspencer3: ouch [01:38] bummer [01:38] * fagan is using vb at the moment which I hear rickspencer3 had some hand in making :) [01:38] fagan, nah, not really [01:39] I worked on the Visual Studio shell for a while starting in '98 [01:39] and did a lot of work with C# language V2 and the Visual Studio editor [01:39] all as a usability engineer [01:39] rickspencer3: Oh cool [01:40] * fagan is just doing a crappy college project and would prefer to be using quickly [01:40] lol [01:40] of course [01:48] hah [01:48] launchpad emailed me a diff before it blew away my changes [01:49] still read only though, I'll add 'em back tomorrow [01:49] good night all, see you tomorrow [01:50] * Amaranth starts thinking extreme for compiz [01:51] Amaranth: how extreme? [01:51] * fagan is going to miss wobbly windows when gnome-shell comes in [01:51] load these plugins: core,move,resize,place,decoration,animation,ccp,gnomecompat,text,commands,wall,snap,expo,staticswitcher,regex,workarounds,fade,session [01:52] no more scale, zoom, dbus, etc [01:52] I'd cut expo from the defaults too, actually [01:52] perhaps regex so long as our default settings don't use it [01:52] then you can get rid of text too [01:52] Amaranth: well cutting stuff that isnt used is always good :) [01:52] and you end up with a crappy metacity [01:53] fagan: I just cut everything that the metacity compositor doesn't implement [01:53] metacity is awesome [01:53] :) [01:54] Except we'd need an extra level in Visual Effects if we did this [01:54] Because Extra should then change it back to what we were using before [01:54] and it should be called awesome [01:54] But in that case I dunno how much it'd actually help because we'd still have the plugins installed which means ccp reads the data for them and loads the gconf settings for them [01:54] fagan, only if the monitor physically shakes when you use it [01:55] bryce: I think thats compiz's drunk mode [01:55] I really hope splitting up the plugins into separate packages and only installing what we use gets compiz fast enough to keep it in [01:55] because if I have to backport the 0.9 plugin system upstream is going to hang me [01:56] Amaranth: Well if gnome-shell is ready for lucid+1 then this will more than likely be the last release of compiz in ubuntu [01:56] fagan: From what I've heard I sort of doubt that [01:56] fagan: Probably lucid+2 [01:57] * fagan doesnt think it will be ready for another year [01:57] lucid+3 at the latest [01:57] at which point I start throwing together bits from XFCE and GNOME 2.x and make my own spin using compiz :) [01:57] oh, and gnome-do/docky :) [01:58] Amaranth: http://shanefagan.com/2009/12/03/more-gnome-shell-messing-from-me/ [01:58] :) [01:58] docky + gnome-shell [01:58] eh [01:59] gnome-shell still feels too much like it's getting in my way [01:59] I like it, plus when you get used to the super key its very easy [01:59] and I disagree with the architecture [02:00] It would not have been nearly as difficult as they say to have gnome-shell and mutter be separate [02:00] If they did that I could make it work with compiz in no time [02:00] But when I asked about it they told me to go use XFCE. I then worked on XFCE for a couple months and got commit access :P [02:01] Id say it wouldnt take a lot of work to get it using compiz but since shell is using clutter the window manager could use it [02:01] Amaranth: I think when shell is released lots of distros are going to stay with panel [02:01] The thing that makes me wonder if we're going to see gnome-shell used at all is the lack of 3D drivers for everything [02:02] What do you use if gnome-shell can't run? [02:02] Metacity? [02:02] The funny thing is gnome-shell/mutter is dropping non-3D users while compiz git works right now without compositing and xrender compositing is planned [02:03] fagan: So we have to ship metacity, gnome-panel, and friends forever but they are completely unmaintained. Awesome. [02:03] why do they call it 'gnome-shell' anyway? [02:03] what is shelly about it? [02:03] bryce: its a new UI shell for gnome [02:03] I dunno, they keep using the term "desktop shell" [02:03] it makes sense [02:04] I know Windows calls the explorer process a "shell" so I guess they get it from there [02:04] huh [02:05] All I know is that we need a redesign weather or not gnome-shell is right is debatable but at least its something new [02:06] Panel is very dated [02:06] I would just like something which behaves itself when I do xrandry things [02:08] I just want something a little more fault tolorent than panel. If panel crashes it trys to start itself again but if its a major crash it keeps trying to start again and makes the desktop completely unusable [02:09] panel is a pain when it crashes [02:10] ick [02:11] I think the crash problem is solved (slightly) by gnome shell not allowing applets embedded in the panel [02:14] bryce Amaranth I would like if we just shipped ubuntu netbook edition as the default desktop because its a lot sleeker and a lot more stable than shell [02:16] fagan: Every app marked to be restarted automatically by the session does that [02:16] when working on some nautilus patches I actually exhausted the number of connections I could have to the X server due to nautilus restarting and crashing over and over and apport showing a dialog for each crash [02:16] Amaranth: I know but its a real pain if you have a segfault [02:16] had to restart X to fix it [02:17] let's port UNE to Wayland :-) [02:17] Wayland? [02:17] wayland is awesome :) [02:17] and actually still needs a "compositor" [02:17] It does most of the work itself though so what it really needs is an app to implement effects [02:18] Whats wayland? [02:18] a display server written from scratch to take advantage of things like gallium, KMS, GEM, etc [02:19] ah [02:20] fagan, http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=xorg_wayland&num=1 [02:20] it's fast, small, and completely flicker free [02:20] oh, and everything is client side [02:21] Amaranth, have you run it? [02:21] the server just composites pixmaps together and blits them [02:21] bryce: nah, never got a chance to get it all setup [02:21] bryce: Looks like you could do it in vmware or qemu now though [02:21] I'm working on getting it packaged [02:21] (off and on) [02:21] bryce: awesome [02:22] x.org is starting to look a little out of date [02:22] starting? [02:22] eh, wayland is an experiment, really [02:22] If anything you'll end up running wayland but all your apps will be running in rootless X servers [02:23] actually X.org is refactoring itself slowly towards modernity [02:23] or wayland will run under X and let you do neat transitions for user switching [02:23] bryce: Right, I was saying if wayland gets used at all by a wide audience that'll be how [02:24] Amaranth, yep, that's my thought too [02:24] wayland would help with boot times though ;) [02:24] definitely [02:24] another use case I could imagine is for really limited functionality devices [02:24] hurry up and package it so we can switch :D [02:24] like maybe some of the arm stuff [02:24] gotta shave those seconds [02:25] hey I found out that my failsafe-x mode boots X in <1 sec [02:25] so if we all just switch to vesa... [02:25] no thanks [02:25] ooh [02:26] though I did barely notice for awhile that my desktop was using nv instead of nvidia [02:26] ajmitch, wow interesting [02:26] ajmitch: If you don't use compiz you probably won't notice at all when you're using nouveau [02:26] ajmitch, well we'll break that for you once we get nouveau in [02:26] Except things will actually be fast [02:26] Amaranth: I only noticed when I tried to turn compiz on :) [02:27] nouveau 2D acceleration is amazing [02:27] dinner... bbl [02:27] perhaps I was just used to my desktop being slow anyway [02:27] * fagan uses the nvidia proprietary drivers [02:27] compiz? is african for 'make-my-desktop-laggy' ? [02:27] * lifeless bites his sarcastic fingers [02:27] lifeless: but it looks nicer [02:28] and notify-osd fades a lot better [02:28] and alt+tab looks nicer [02:28] yes, but I like being able to alt-tab quickly [02:28] nouveau makes using the metacity compositor pleasant [02:28] and dont forget wobbly windows [02:28] lifeless: It's pretty fast here... [02:28] Amaranth: but will it play world of warcraft in wine yet? :) [02:29] ajmitch: depends [02:29] * fagan loves wobbly windows and misses them when he is in windows land [02:29] you need the exact same chip and such as the developer who got it working, basically [02:29] I doubt that the memory management of nouveau's 3d driver is adequate for wow [02:30] did you beat WoW yet? [02:30] that would require me spending far too much time on it [02:30] so 'no thanks' :) [02:31] Amaranth: Some guy got all but one achievement [02:31] That dude must have 0% life [02:31] He must be able to kick everyones ass [02:32] * fagan gos back to making the single worst program ever made [02:32] (college VB project) [02:33] do you feel dirty yet? [02:34] ajmitch: I feel like I just ran threw a ditch [02:34] heh [02:34] plus its 2.30 [02:34] am [02:34] the project is due in 12.30 hours [02:35] and I have barely anything done [02:35] good luck, and you should ignore irc for a few hours :) [02:35] ajmitch: I know im just on a tea break [02:35] Plus I have taxi driver in the backround [02:35] So im happy === eeejay is now known as eeejay_away === bjf is now known as bjf-afk === eeejay_away is now known as eeejay [07:30] Good morning [07:34] morning [08:04] hmmmmm [08:05] I found a little bug in open office thats just for the Irish local [08:05] We should be using the UK dictionary instead of not using any [08:32] good morning everyone [08:39] good morning here [08:42] good morning seb128 [08:43] hey chrisccoulson [08:44] how are you today? [08:45] good, you? [08:45] yeah, not too bad thanks. glad it's friday :) [08:53] hum [08:53] my pc is beeping again today [08:54] ie loud and annoying speaker sound [09:02] ok [09:03] it's half pitti's fault half mine on this one [09:03] * seb128 fixes now [09:03] ? [09:03] pitti, you didn't commit your libgnome change to bzr [09:04] and I didn't notice the revision was not there when merging [09:04] so the "turn bell off" got dropped [09:04] oops, I'm sorry [09:04] np [09:04] we really need hooks to check that the bzr version match the archive one [09:04] I forget to push sometimes too... [09:05] i've been caught out before by people forgetting to push too :) [09:05] although, i should check the versions match too [09:23] hum [09:24] bryce, pitti: the xorg syncs breaked installability for gtk... [09:24] libxi [09:24] oh darn, how? [09:24] depwait on libx11-dev (>= 2:1.2.99.1) [09:24] and we have [09:24] “libx11” 2:1.2.2-1ubuntu1 source package in Ubuntu [09:24] pitti, things don't build because our libx11 is too old [09:25] we are sort of in the middle of a transition [09:25] -> #u-devel [09:25] nothing desktopish build now [09:33] I need to disappear for some 2 hours [09:34] bbl [09:34] pitti, see you later [09:34] maybe archive will be fixed by time you come back ;-) [09:45] hey Keybuk [09:47] hey [10:46] ok, let's try the daily dist-upgrade and look at login [10:48] bbl [12:16] seb128: should bug 460535 be assigned to slomo instead of you? [12:16] Launchpad bug 460535 in gst-plugins-base0.10 "Unable to play any but the first track of CD" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460535 [12:33] seb128: want to talk about the bottom panel piece, i can chat now if you want [12:35] re [12:36] just back from lunch [12:36] pitti - did you mean to assign bug 491162 to ubuntu-desktop (or desktop-bugs?) [12:36] hey sabdfl [12:36] Launchpad bug 491162 in gdm "gdm does not start X unless remove "tty-device-added KERNEL=tty7" from upstart gdm.conf" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/491162 [12:36] pitti, ^ [12:36] hey sabdfl [12:36] sabdfl, was your concern about the 2 bars against 1? or about a particular applet? [12:37] sabdfl: so the original idea was to drop some of the less popular applets and the starters, and merge the two panels (an idea which has been thrown around for a loong time already, but we never got to it) [12:37] this particularly helps with smaller screens like laptops [12:38] so you want to keep the two panels? [12:38] chrisccoulson: I didn't assign it in the first place; not sure whom to give it to yet [12:39] pitti - ah, you're right, it was bryce i think. i thought it was you because i only got an e-mail when you changed the milestone (and not when it was assigned) [12:39] sorry ;) [12:41] pitti, does it need to be assigned at all? [12:41] or unmilestoned [12:42] pitti, it will be in the next upstream version so in lucid [12:42] I gave Keybuk a quick ping, so far I don't understand it at all yet, I'm afraid [12:42] seb128: oh, you mean gstreamer, sorry [12:42] seb128: we just usually fix SRUs in the dev release first, that's why I milestoned it [12:42] yes [12:42] I prefer to stay on sync with Debian [12:43] I'm fine being assigned to it [12:43] milestone for beta rather if you want [12:43] * pitti moves to alpha-2 [12:43] * fagan thinks 2 panels are nice [12:43] seb128, pitti: I replied on ubuntu-devel [12:43] I'd rather not touch that line right now [12:43] Keybuk: thanks [12:43] because you might hide the problem [12:44] I get failure to start gdm right now most boots ;) [12:44] and I can definitely say it's not that line [12:44] because I can debug upstart, and it says that match is TRUE :p [12:44] there's certainly a bug because you removed the "and started hal" [12:44] I've had a few failures where gdm runs out of respawns [12:44] but that's not it either [12:44] so far my *theory* is that the framebuffer (graphics) device shows up [12:44] but X wants the DRM device [12:45] and that hasn't shown up yet [12:45] and again, you run out of respawns [12:45] * pitti hopes the answer isn't "put back hal" :) [12:46] I take it the "on hal" just delayed the startup far enough for the fb to get active? [12:46] s/fb/drm/ [12:48] no [12:48] X genuinely needs HAL :p [12:48] you didn't fix that [12:48] Keybuk: ... at it [12:48] bryce could upload X with those patches, of course [12:48] the libraries were synced last night [12:48] :D [12:48] we are close.. [12:49] HAL MUST DIE! [12:49] those are needed first [12:49] pitti: reminds me, two more syncs; libxcb and libxtst [12:49] and libxvmc [12:49] tjaalton: don't bother about filing bugs; doing right now [12:49] tjaalton: experimental or unstable? [12:50] pitti: done already :) libxcb - unstable, libxtst - exp, libxvmc - unstable [12:50] pitti: I think we're just genuinely missing something [12:50] it's on my plate to debug [12:50] * fagan hugs pitti for killing hal hitman style [12:50] and will probably look into that next week during alpha 1 freeze [12:51] tjaalton: synced; can you please close the bugs? [12:51] pitti: yep, on it [12:51] thanks [12:51] thanks to you [13:09] Riddell: want to add some Kubuntu bits to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus for today's release team meeting? [13:34] erk [13:35] i got drawn into something else [13:35] we do have a design plan to get to one panel, but in order to do that we have to provide substitutes for the functions in the bottom panel today [13:35] those will likely be here for 10.10, but not 10.04 [13:36] i don't want two panels, but I don't want to bastardise the top panel either, and in the interim the plan is to live with two till we have good solutions [13:36] sabdfl: we thought to move the task switcher into the top panel [13:36] sabdfl: ok, that's fine [13:37] sabdfl: having two panels isn't actually a speed issue, we just thought that when we are at reducing the applets anyway, we can just as well get to that [13:37] but let's defer that then [13:37] ok thanks [13:38] with Unity, trash is in Places, the "what's running" is handled by the launcher, and desktop reveal is part of task switching [13:38] so those two should stay, too? === robbiew-afk is now known as robbiew [13:57] pitti, the plan we had was to move task list and workspace switcher to the one bar [13:57] and drop trash (which is in nautilus places anyway) and show desktop button [13:58] we changed the clock to not display the date too [13:58] that made the one panel fit ok on small screens and reduce some login load due to the extra applets we cleaned [13:59] ups [14:00] sabdfl, ^ [14:00] pitti, sorry that was not for you ;-) [14:00] sabdfl: pitti doest it mean 10.10 won't be using gnome-shell by default? [14:01] istaz, that has not been discussed yet, gnome-shell is not ready for that let's see how it goes in the next 6 months [14:01] ok [14:02] istaz, right now gnome-shell works only on machines with fast graphic and compositing and has no fallback and we will need to solve that issue anyway [14:02] istaz, but that's discussions for next cycle [14:03] in any case we will need to figure something for installs which don't allow running gnome-shell [14:03] I will be quite happy if you are still going to provide support for my older computer which won't support gnome-shell :) [14:03] see ;-) [14:31] kenvandine: Could you set up the bustle data collector to start with the session start so then we could get all the dbus traffic to align with the bootcharts? [14:31] baybe [14:31] maybe [14:31] i haven't looked at it yet [14:32] i am still trying to get that patch into gtk :/ [14:32] with 2.19.1 it fails make check... [14:32] so fixing those tests now [14:32] kenvandine: I went to the session at GCDS on it, and it's cool. I'm not sure how to put it "really early" into gnome session though. [14:32] tedg, yeah, i'll look at that [14:32] unless seb128 wants to take a stab at it on the target hardware :) [14:33] i also want to use it to look at gwibber [14:33] kenvandine: Don't do that, it'll make you cry ;) [14:33] kenvandine, hey, how is empathy 2.29 going btw? [14:33] kenvandine, I don't know how to do this dbus thing [14:34] seb128, haven't touched it yet... soon though :) [14:34] seb128, i haven't looked at bustle yet [14:34] well, read about it [14:34] ok, me neither [14:34] Hi all [14:34] seb128, i need to get the docs building for the app indicators too [14:34] seb128: http://www.willthompson.co.uk/bustle/ basically "bustle-dbus-monitor >foo.bustle" will basically dump all the stuff off the session bus into "foo.bustle" [14:34] and I'm busy with other changes [14:34] Sup guys? [14:34] I'm fine doing testing but I'm too busy to learn what to do [14:35] ie give me instructions or look for somebody else [14:35] seb128, this gtk patch has turned into a pile of work :/ [14:35] seb128, i'll figure out a way to make it start early and you can just do it :) [14:35] kenvandine, I was expected it to be some work indeed [14:35] kenvandine, ok thanks [14:36] * kenvandine finally moved the actually building of gtk to another box... so at least my laptop doesn't overheat, this weekend i really need to take it apart and check it out [14:36] maybe a lose heat sink or something [14:36] loose [14:37] * kenvandine thinks evolution filtering has gotten way slower [15:04] tedg, just curious why do you ask us to get those dbus infos where you could get those? [15:04] tedg, you don't get the cpu use on your box? [15:05] chrisccoulson_g1, chrisccoulson: what delay did you investigate exactly? the one before or after gnome-settings-daemon? [15:05] or both? [15:05] seb128 - before gnome-settings-daemon [15:05] http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/bootchart/seb128-dellmini-lucid-20091203-1.png [15:06] the delay before compiz is 2 seconds there [15:06] 1 before g-s-d [15:06] one after g-s-d [15:06] Keybuk - if a process loads at boot, and then at some point calls execvp() and turns in to something else, what process name will be shown in bootchart (or does it get a new line)? [15:07] I'm wondering what is the 1 second between seahorse and compiz [15:07] chrisccoulson: the second process name I think [15:07] it may be the first [15:08] seb128 - that delay is just g-s-d loading isnt it? [15:08] seb128: I don't get as much. But I haven't run a bootchart. I wasn't looking at the bustle data as much for just me, I thought it'd be useful for the desktop optimization in general. [15:08] Keybuk - thanks. i've been looking at the 1 second delay in gnome-session. I know where most of it is wasted now, but there is still a small amount unexplained [15:08] but then i just realised something :) [15:09] actually, no, what i realised only applies to my own setup, as i have seahorse-agent installed [15:09] :( [15:09] seahorse-agent starts up and then calls execvp() and runs gnome-session [15:10] chrisccoulson: I don't know there is no color in the bar during that second [15:10] right [15:10] which is weird [15:10] bootchart can be confusing here [15:10] sometimes it helps to get the tgz and regenerate the bootchart with --no-prune [15:10] then you get a whole load more detail [15:10] Keybuk - that's what I thought. so, i'm not sure gnome-session is _really_ gnome-session for some of that time:) [15:10] Keybuk, btw do you still have daily measures? [15:10] but i could be clutching at straws ;) [15:11] Keybuk, could you remember me the url? [15:12] seb128 - yeah, it's wierd that there is no colour. what i need to do is some profiling in g-s-d really to work out how long it really holds the session up for [15:12] but i haven't got around to that yet:) [15:12] seb128: http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/ ? [15:13] i'm trying to get gconf to start early, but it's more difficult than i thought, as it needs the session bus [15:13] but, i'm sure i can make it work :-/ [15:13] Keybuk, thanks [15:13] Keybuk, weird I don't have similar numbers [15:13] didrocks, thanks for getting the work items into the quickly blueprints [15:13] seb128: smaller with? [15:14] Keybuk, http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/bootchart/seb128-dellmini-lucid-20091203-1.png [15:14] Keybuk, it's over one second difference [15:14] seb128: are you running with any patches? [15:14] or PPAs etc.? [15:14] not that I know about [15:14] but I don't reinstall the box [15:14] I dist-upgrade daily [15:15] your X starts much faster [15:15] you're into the session by 10s [15:15] oh [15:15] no [15:15] so I am [15:16] ah [15:16] hum [15:16] I see [15:16] jockey-gtk [15:16] pitti: is that still not fixed? [15:16] ah right [15:17] Keybuk, thanks [15:17] because mine are fresh installs every time, I get jockey penalty on that boot [15:17] I also don't see dkms on yours, do you have the bcmwl thing installed? [15:17] are we supposed to measure standard boot or first boot after install? [15:17] first boot after install probably has some other extra work [15:18] like gnome-panel writting their config etc [15:18] this is second boot [15:18] which is why the jockey-gtk confuses me [15:18] I allow a first boot for everything to sort itself out [15:18] I don't think I've bcmwl installed no [15:18] that could be it too I guess [15:18] will grab pitti when he returns [15:18] ok [15:19] argh, that [15:19] :D [15:24] seb128, i don't think we can drop trash, though we could probably improve performance (like do lazy detection of whether there's anything in the trash) [15:25] sabdfl, ok, I had the impression it was not so useful since you can open from nautilus easily but I've no strong opinion [15:26] sabdfl, the other reason to reduce the number of applet is that each one has a start cost for gnome-panel [15:27] sabdfl, we should have a look to that anyway but that will go down to the bonobo use at some point and we can't replace that easily [15:28]