prompt_front: Now, answer the following question based on the text below, only give me the answer and do not output any other words.

Question: What is the maximum radius of the emitting region for the black body model?

Read the following text and answer briefly.

Context 1: \section{Introduction}

The publicly available XMM-Newton slew data covers to date around 35\%
of the sky  The soft band (0 2$-$2 keV) sensitivity limit of the slews
(6$\times10^{-13}$\,ergs cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$) is close to that of the
ROSAT All-Sky Survey (RASS; Voges et al \ 1999), and in the medium
(2$-$12 keV) band, the slew data goes significantly deeper
(4$\times10^{-12}$\,ergs cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$) than all other previous
large area surveys  Over 7700 individual sources have so far been
detected to a positional accuracy of 8\arcsec   For details on the
the construction and
characteristics of the first released XMM-Newton slew survey
catalogue, see Saxton et al  (2008)  For details of the initial
science results from the slew survey, see Read et al  (2006) 

The comparison of XMM-Newton slew data with the RASS is now giving,
for the first time, the opportunity to find exotic, extreme
high-variability X-ray bursting objects, e g  tidal disruption
candidates (Esquej et al  2007), and also Galactic novae, flare stars,
and flaring white dwarfs, plus eclipsing binaries, AGN and blazars  It
is only with such a large-area survey as the XMM-Newton Slew Survey,
that transient events as these have a chance of being caught 

One such rare event, XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933, which we here show to be
a new Classical Nova, was discovered in an XMM-Newton slew from 18th
July 2006 at a very high count rate of 23 3\,ct s$^{-1}$ (EPIC-pn:
0 2$-$2\,keV)  

Classical novae (see Bode \& Evans 2008 for a review) occur in
interacting binary systems consisting of a white dwarf primary star
and a lower-mass secondary star  The nova itself is a cataclysmic
nuclear explosion caused by the accretion of material (via Roche Lobe
overflow or wind accretion) from the secondary star onto the surface
of the white dwarf; here the pressure and temperature at the base of
the accreted material becomes sufficient to trigger a thermonuclear
runaway  A recent review of the thermonuclear processes powering
classical novae can be found in Starrfield et al \ (2008)   The
accreted material is partially expelled, obscuring the X-ray emission
from the surface of the white dwarf  At later stages, the ejected
material expands further and becomes optically thin, revealing the
nuclear burning on the surface of the white dwarf   This emission
peaks in the soft X-ray regime and it is known as the super-soft
source (SSS) state (Krautter 2008)  Models of the classical nova SSS
state can be found in Tuchman \& Truran (1998) and Sala \& Hernanz
(2005) 

Though many classical novae have been observed in X-rays in their SSS
states (Ness et al \ (2007) for example discuss several examples observed with
Swift), it is in the optical band, early in their outbursts, that
classical novae are almost always discovered  This is because they are
intrinsically optically bright and easily found in inexpensive
wide-area shallow surveys   XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 is very unusual
therefore in that it has been discovered, as we shall see, later in
its evolution, in the SSS X-ray state 

In this paper we describe the XMM-Newton slew observations
(Section~2), and the follow-up X-ray observations by the Swift XRT
(Section~3) and XMM-Newton (Section~4)  Multiwavelength observations
with Swift-UVOT, Magellan and ASAS are described in Section~5  We then
present a discussion of the results (Section~6), and conclusions 



\begin{table*}[t]
  \caption[]
  {Details of the four XMM-Newton Slew observations and the single (Rev \,1378) 
    dedicated XMM-Newton pointed observation  XMM-Newton revolution, date and observation ID 
    are tabulated, together with the 0 2$-$2 0\,keV X-ray properties of XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933;  
    position, background-subtracted counts, exposure, count-rate, and detection likelihood  For the 
    Rev \,1378 dedicated observation, these properties are given for all the EPIC cameras combined   
    For the slew observations, only the EPIC-pn values are given  In the first two slews the source 
    was not detected, and upper limits are shown in the table }
  \centering
\begin{tabular}{lccccrrrr}
\hline
Rev  & Date & Obs \,ID & RA(J2000)   & Dec(J2000) & Counts         & Exposure & Count rate  & Lik  \\ 
     & (UT) &        &     &            &                & (s) & (s$^{-1}$)  &      \\ \hline 
 351 (slew) & 07/11/01 &  9035100003  &        &               & $<$3 6     & 8 8 & $<$0 41 & $<$$\sim$8      \\
 750 (slew) & 12/01/04 &  9075000003  &        &               & $<$3 2     & 17 3 & $<$0 18 & $<$$\sim$8      \\  
1210 (slew )& 18/07/06 &  9121000003  & 06:06:36 2 & -69:49:33 & 228 8$\pm$14 1 & 9 8 & 23 4$\pm$1 4 & 1777 1   \\ 
1246 (slew) & 28/09/06 &  9121460003  & 06:06:36 5 & -69:49:38 &  12 9$\pm$2 4  & 3 4 &  3 8$\pm$0 7 &   54 7   \\
\vspace{-3 5mm}\\
\hline 
1378 (pointed) & 19/06/07 &  0510010501  & 06:06:36 5 & -69:49:37 & 1511 0$\pm$44 8 & 8940 0 &  0 20$\pm$0 01 & 4630 4          \\
\hline
\end{tabular}
\label{slewtable}
\end{table*}

\section{XMM-Newton slew observations}

XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 was discovered in XMM-Newton slew 9121000003
from revolution 1210 on 18th July 2006  Details of the standard
XMM-Newton slew data reduction and analysis used, plus the
source-searching and catalogue cross-correlation etc , are presented
in Saxton et al   (2008) 

The source passed through the EPIC-pn detector in 14\,s, at a small
off-axis angle, such that an effective vignetting-corrected soft band
(0 2$-$2\,keV) exposure time of 9 8\,s was achieved   A total of 229
source counts lie within a radius of 20\arcsec, yielding a (EPIC-pn:
0 2$-$2\,keV) count rate of 23 4\,ct s$^{-1}$ 

The source is seen to have no cross-correlation identifications in the
RASS, and no other multiwavelength candidates within 30\arcsec\ in
Simbad\footnote{http://simbad u-strasbg fr/simbad/},
NED\footnote{http://nedwww ipac caltech edu/index html}, and
HEASARC\footnote{http://heasarc gsfc nasa gov/}  The position of the
source in the sky is such that it lies apparently at the outer eastern
edge of the LMC 

XMM-Newton has slewed over this region of sky a number of times, and
though nothing was detected in previous slews from 7th November 2001
and 12th January 2004, the source was seen again on 28th September
2006 (rev \,1246, 72 days after the rev \,1210 discovery), at the same
position, but at a reduced flux level (3 8\,ct s$^{-1}$; EPIC-pn:
0 2$-$2\,keV)   i e  it had reduced in flux by a factor of $\approx$6
in 72 days  XMM-Newton has not slewed over this area of sky since
rev \,1246  Details of the relevant XMM-Newton slews, together with
the (0 2$-$2\,keV) EPIC-pn source position, detected source counts,
count rate and detection likelihood are given in
Table~\ref{slewtable} 

The fact that XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933 is detected in the total-band
(0 2$-$12\,keV) and the soft-band (0 2$-$2\,keV), whilst effectively
zero counts are seen in the hard-band (2$-$12\,keV), is immediately
indicative of the source being very soft  

The moderately high count rate indicates that the spectrum is affected
by pile-up (the on-axis limit is 6\,ct s$^{-1}$ for EPIC-pn full-frame
mode
\footnote{http://xmm esac esa int/external/xmm\_user\_support/documentation
  /uhb\_2 5/index html})  This distorts the spectrum and makes
quantitative spectral analysis of the slew data difficult  We
minimized these effects by following the standard procedure, i e 
ignoring the central part of the Point Spread Function (PSF), and
extracted an event spectrum (containing single and double events) of
the source from within an annulus of 5\arcsec$-$30\arcsec\ radius,
centred on the source position  Unresolved problems associated with
the motion of sources across the detector still exist within slew
data, and approximations currently have to be made when calculating
the associated effective area and detector response matrix files  In
order to perform qualitative spectral analysis, an effective area file
was generated by averaging the individual core-removed effective area
files at 9 different positions along the detector track made by the
source  This accounts for the removal of the piled-up core, and takes
the vignetting and PSF variations into account to a good
approximation   Individual BACKSCAL values have been set by hand, as
have the EXPOSURE values, estimated by calculating the distance
travelled by the source in detector coordinates and finding the time
taken to do this, given a 90\,deg\,hr$^{-1}$ slew speed, then
subtracting the appropriate fractions for chip gaps and bad pixels 
For the response matrix, we used the equivalent canned detector
response matrix for the vignetting-weighted average source position,
for single plus double events and for full-frame mode:
epn\_ff20\_sdY6\_v6 9 rmf  A background spectrum was extracted from a
much larger circular region close to the source and at a similar
off-axis angle 

To fit the slew spectral data, and indeed all the high-energy spectra
in the present paper, the
XSPEC\footnote{http://heasarc gsfc nasa gov/docs/xanadu/xspec/}
spectral fitting package has been used  As $\chi^2$ minimization is
not valid when fitting spectra of low statistical quality, for the
fitting of the slew spectrum (and all the spectral fitting in the
present paper), C-statistics have been used  To take into account the
absorbing column along the line of sight, the {\em wabs} model with
the {\em wilm} cosmic abundance table (Wilms et al \ 2000) has been
used throughout the paper  All the errors quoted in the present paper
are 90\% confidence intervals, unless otherwise stated 

The rev \,1210 slew spectrum shows that the source is very soft, and
appears consistent with a 63$_{-10}^{+12}$\,eV black body, absorbed by
a hydrogen column density of
8 2$_{-4 1}^{+5 4}\times10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$  The fit is good, with a
P-statistic value of 0 11, obtained via the XSPEC {\em goodness}
command for this fit, based on 5000 random simulations  The best-fit
hydrogen column is equal to the full Galactic hydrogen column in the
direction of the source (8 0$\pm{1 1}\times10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$; Dickey
\& Lockman, 1990, calculated via the FTOOL {\em
  nh}\footnote{http://heasarc gsfc nasa gov/lheasoft/ftools/fhelp/nh txt}) 
The slew spectrum, plus the best fit simple black body model and the
deviations from the model, are shown in Fig \,\ref{slewspec}  The
observed count rate corresponds to a (0 2$-$2\,keV) flux, corrected
for the removal of the saturated PSF core, of
4 8$^{+2 7}_{-1 6}\times10^{-11}$\,ergs cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$ (an
increase in flux over the RASS upper limit, assuming the same spectral
model, by a factor of more than 500) 

Simple power-law, thermal Bremmstrahlung, and other optically thin hot
plasma models are unable to fit the spectrum adequately well   Given
that we later are able to identify the source as a nova (Section~5 2),
then the black-body model will likely be a good approximation 
Furthermore, as we have obtained here a moderate number of slew
counts, the more physically realistic, though more complex atmosphere
model for CO white dwarfs of MacDonald \& Vennes (1991), provided by
K \,Page (private communication), was attempted   This model, used
e g  to model the nova V1974 Cyg (Balman et al \ 1998), yielded a
marginal fit (and not formally a more statistically significant fit;
P-statistic = 0 03, based on 5000 random simulations), with an
effective temperature of 70$^{+8}_{-6}$\,eV, an $N_{\rm H}$ of
3 7$^{+3 2}_{-2 5}$$\times$$10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$, and a PSF-corrected
(0 2$-$2\,keV) flux of 4 5$^{+1 3}_{-1 8}\times10^{-11}$\,ergs
cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$  Note that a smaller $N_{\rm H}$ (though perhaps
still consistent with the full Galactic hydrogen column) is now
obtained using the white dwarf atmosphere model  (Note that the
MacDonald \& Vennes (1991) ONe white dwarf atmosphere model was also
attempted, but yielded a marginally worse fit than the CO white dwarf
atmosphere model; only the CO atmosphere model has been used in the
subsequent analysis) 

It is well known (e g  Krautter et al \ 1996) that, because of the
energy-dependent opacity in the white dwarf atmosphere, fits to super
soft source novae spectra with black body models give larger fluxes
and lower temperatures than atmosphere models fit to the same spectra,
and this is seen in the present case  Thus the black body model
requires a larger $N_{\rm H}$ to fit the same data than the atmosphere
model, as is seen  

The model normalizations, corrected for the removal
of the saturated PSF core, can be used to derive an approximate
distance to the source   If we assume a typical emitting region for
the white dwarf atmosphere to be of spherical radius 10$^{9}$\,cm,
then, for the black body model, this distance turns out to be
20$^{+31}_{-10}$\,kpc  The effects discussed above however can lead to
usage of the black body model giving rise to an underestimation of the
distance   For the white dwarf atmosphere model, a larger distance of
71$^{+27}_{-23}$\,kpc is obtained  Both estimates are consistent with
the distance to the LMC ($\sim$50\,kpc, see Section~6), and assuming a
distance of 50\,kpc, the black body derived flux corresponds to a
(pile-up corrected) 0 2$-$2\,keV X-ray luminosity of
1 4$^{+0 8}_{-0 5}\times10^{37}$\,ergs s$^{-1}$ 


\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=100 20 575 700,clip,width=6 0cm,angle=270]{12082f1 ps}
\caption{XMM-Newton Slew spectrum of XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933 from
  XMM-Newton revolution 1210   The data points (crosses; adjacent data
  bins having been grouped together for the plot to have a significance of at least
  3) have been fitted with a black body model (kT=63\,eV; see text) 
  The solid line shows the best fit to the spectrum  The ratio of the
  data to the best fit model is shown in the lower panel }
\label{slewspec}
\end{figure}


\section{Swift XRT X-ray observations}

We requested and received a prompt observation with Swift of this
source before it moved out of the Swift visibility window in April
2007  We received over 14\,ksec of Swift-XRT time in 7
separate observations and the details of these observations are listed
in Table~\ref{xrttable}  All of the observations were in photon
counting mode and none of the observations showed any times of
significant high-BG flux  In none of the observations did the source
position coincide with any of the dead (micrometeorite-induced)
detector columns  The analysis has been performed using HEASOFT
v6 1 2  The individual XRT observations were astrometrically-corrected
and then stacked to ascertain a best Swift-XRT position $-$ this was
found to be 06 06 37 00 -69 49 33 9 (with a 90\% error radius of
4 0\arcsec)  Source counts were then extracted from each observation
from a circle of radius of 40\arcsec\ at this position  Background
counts were extracted from each observation from large-radius
off-source circles close to the source position  Source counts and
count rates for the individual XRT observations are given in
Table~\ref{xrttable} 


\begin{table}
  \caption[]{Details of the Swift-XRT observations (observation ID, observation date and 
    cleaned exposure time) are tabulated, together with the total (0 2$-$2 0\,keV) background-subtracted 
    counts and count rate from XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933 (see text) }
  \centering
\begin{tabular}{ccrrr}
\hline
ID          & Date     & Exp  & Counts       & Count rate       \\ 
            &   (UT)   &  (s) &              & (s$^{-1}$)        \\ \hline 
00030895001 & 28/02/07 & 1955 & 23 9$\pm$5 1 & 0 0122$\pm$0 0026  \\
00030895002 & 07/03/07 & 1796 & 15 8$\pm$4 2 & 0 0088$\pm$0 0024 \\
00030895003 & 08/03/07 & 1651 & 10 9$\pm$3 6 & 0 0066$\pm$0 0022 \\
00030895004 & 08/03/07 & 2547 & 20 6$\pm$4 8 & 0 0081$\pm$0 0019 \\
00030895005 & 10/03/07 & 2550 & 29 5$\pm$5 7 & 0 0116$\pm$0 0022 \\
00030895006 & 20/03/07 &  552 &  8 6$\pm$3 2 & 0 0156$\pm$0 0057 \\
00030895007 & 22/03/07 & 3391 & 24 4$\pm$5 4 & 0 0072$\pm$0 0016 \\
\hline
\end{tabular}
\label{xrttable}
\end{table}

The observation naturally fell into three time-separated groups, those
of obs \,1, obs \,2-5 and obs \,6-7  A similar analysis applied to
these groups (where the statistics are improved) gives rise to source
counts and count rates of 76 7$\pm$9 3\,counts and
0 0090$\pm$0 0011\,ct~s$^{-1}$ (for obs \,2-5), and
33 0$\pm$6 2\,counts and 0 0084$\pm$0 0016\,ct~s$^{-1}$ (for
obs \,6-7)  (Analysis of all the data together yields
133 6$\pm$12 3\,counts and 0 0092$\pm$0 0009\,ct~s$^{-1}$)  

A spectrum was extracted from all the Swift-XRT data from a 40\arcsec\
radius circle, using grades 0$-$12, centred on the Swift-XRT position 
A background spectrum was extracted again from all the Swift-XRT data,
from large-radius off-source circles close to the source position  An
ARF file was created using {\em xrtmkarf} and the appropriate RMF
(swxpc0to12\_20010101v008 rmf) from the Swift-XRT Calibration Database
was obtained 

Standard spectral models were again fit to the spectral data using
XSPEC  Again, C-statistics were used, as was the {\em wabs} absorption
model with the {\em wilm} cosmic abundance table  It was again 
obvious that only a very soft spectrum would be appropriate for the
data, and the only simple model that was able to fit the data
adequately was a black-body model of temperature
$kT$=$59^{+14}_{-10}$\,eV, with an absorbing hydrogen column of
9 5$^{+5 0}_{-3 9}$$\times$$10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$  No sufficiently constrained parameters could
be obtained using the CO white dwarf atmosphere model (MacDonald \&
Vennes 1991)  The Swift-XRT spectrum, together with the best-fit black
body model is shown in Fig \,\ref{xrtspec}  The corresponding
(0 2$-$2 0\,keV) flux is 2 7$^{+0 7}_{-1 2}\times10^{-13}$\,ergs
cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$ (i e  a reduction by more than a factor 100 from
the XMM-Newton slew discovery flux), and the X-ray luminosity, for the
assumed distance of 50\,kpc, is 8 0$^{+2 2}_{-3 5}\times10^{34}$\,ergs
s$^{-1}$ 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=100 15 580 710,clip,width=6 0cm,angle=270]{12082f2 ps}
\caption{Swift-XRT spectrum from XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933  The data
  points (crosses; adjacent data bins having been grouped together for
  the plot to have a significance of at least 3) have been fitted with
  a black body model (kT=59\,eV; see text)  The source has faded by a
  factor of $>100$ since the XMM-Newton revolution 1210 slew
  discovery  The solid line show the best fit to the spectra   The
  ratio of the data to the best fit model is shown in the lower panel 
}
\label{xrtspec}
\end{figure}

A cautious estimate of the size of the emitting region can be obtained
from the model normalization; the assumed distance of 50\,kpc yields a
maximum radius of 4 5$\times$10$^{8}$\,cm (the fit normalization is
essentially unconstrained at the lower bound)   Though great care
should be taken in interpreting this result, as the black body model
is possibly overestimating the luminosity, this obtained radius is
still consistent with that of moderately massive ($>$1 1$M_{\odot}$)
white dwarfs (Hamada \& Salpeter 1961), i e \,the whole white dwarf
surface may still be emitting at 59\,eV 

\section{Dedicated XMM-Newton observations}

We were granted an XMM-Newton Target of Opportunity (ToO) observation,
once the source became again visible to XMM-Newton, and a 10\,ks
XMM-Newton EPIC observation was made on 19th June 2007 (see
Table~\ref{slewtable})  All the XMM-Newton EPIC data, i e   the data
from the two MOS cameras and the single pn camera, were taken in
full-frame mode with the thin filter in place   These data from the
three EPIC instruments have been reprocessed using the standard
procedures in XMM-Newton SAS (Science Analysis System) $-$ v 7 1 0 
Periods of high-background, of which there were very few, were
filtered out of each dataset by creating a high-energy 10$-$15\,keV
lightcurve of single events over the entire field of view, and
selecting times when this lightcurve peaked above 0 75\,ct s$^{-1}$
(for pn) or 0 25\,ct s$^{-1}$ (for MOS)  This resulted in
$\approx$9 4(8 0)\,ks of low-background MOS(pn) data  Details of this dedicated
XMM-Newton observation, together with source position, and
(0 2$-$2\,keV) all-EPIC combined (pn, MOS1, MOS2) detected source
counts, count rate and detection likelihood are given in
Table~\ref{slewtable} 

Source spectra, containing single and double events, were extracted
from the datasets from circles (none of the data were now piled up)
centred on the source position  An extraction radius, estimated from
where the radial surface brightness profile was seen to fall to the
surrounding background level, was set to 30\arcsec  Background spectra
were extracted from each cleaned dataset from a 40\arcsec$-$80\arcsec\
annulus centred on the source position  Point sources seen to
contaminate these larger-area background spectra were removed from the
background spectra to a radius of 60\arcsec  ARF files were created
for the source spectra, and were checked to confirm that the correct
extraction area calculations had been performed  Finally RMF response
files were generated 
 
Standard spectral models were again fit to the spectral data using
XSPEC  Once again it was obvious that only a very soft model would fit the data; the only
simple model that was able to fit the data well (a P-statistic = 0 17,
based on 5000 random simulations) was a black-body model of
temperature $kT$=70$^{+3}_{-4}$\,eV, with an absorbing hydrogen column
of 6 9$^{+1 0}_{-1 6}\times10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$  The spectrum, together with this best-fit
model are shown in Fig \,\ref{xmmspec}  The corresponding
(0 2$-$2 0\,keV) flux is only marginally less than the Swift-XRT value
at 2 2$^{+0 8}_{-0 9}\times10^{-13}$\,ergs cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$ and the
X-ray luminosity (for the assumed distance of 50\,kpc) is
6 7$^{+2 5}_{-2 8}\times10^{34}$\,ergs s$^{-1}$ 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=110 15 570 705,clip,width=6 0cm,angle=270]{12082f3 ps}
\caption{XMM-Newton ToO spectrum from XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933  The
  data points (crosses; adjacent data bins having been grouped
  together for the plot to have a significance of at least 3)) have
  been fitted again with a black body model (kT=70\,eV) (see text) 
  EPIC-pn data is shown in black, with EPIC-MOS1 in red and EPIC-MOS2
  in green  The solid lines show the best fit to the spectra   The
  ratios of the data to the best fit model are shown in the lower
  panel }
\label{xmmspec}
\end{figure}

Given that, in this XMM-Newton ToO observation, we had obtained a
larger number of counts ($\raisebox{-1mm}{$\stackrel{>}{\sim}$}$1500 over the 3 EPIC cameras), the
physically more realistic CO white dwarf atmosphere model (MacDonald \&
Vennes 1991) was also attempted  This yielded a marginal fit (and formally
a no more statistically significant fit; P-statistic = 0 04, based on
5000 random simulations), with an effective temperature of
73$^{+3}_{-2}$\,eV, and an $N_{\rm H}$ of
3 4$^{+0 8}_{-0 8}$$\times$$10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$  Again, usage of the black body model results
in a larger fitted $N_{\rm H}$ and a lower fitted temperature than
with the atmosphere model  


As before, the model normalization can be used to obtain a cautious
estimate of the size of the emitting region  For the assumed distance
of 50\,kpc, then the black body model returns an emitting region
radius of only 1 3$\pm$0 2$\times$10$^{8}$\,cm   Again care should be
taken, as this may be an overestimation, the black body model having
perhaps overestimated the luminosity  For the white dwarf atmosphere
model, a smaller radius of 0 4$\pm$0 1$\times$10$^{8}$\,cm is
obtained  Note further that the assumption of a larger distance (see
Section~6) would result in a proportionally larger emitting radius 
The range in allowed radius therefore is quite large, and it is not
impossible for for the whole of the white dwarf surface to be emitting
at 70\,eV  If this is the case, then the white dwarf would have to be
at the high end of the mass range ($>$1 2$M_{\odot}$; Hamada \&
Salpeter 1961)  It may be the case then that we are at this point at,
or close to the end of the SSS phase, where the effective temperature
has reached a maximum (Sala \& Hernanz 2005), as is tentatively seen
in the spectral fitting results, and where the photospheric radius has
reached a minimum, close to the white dwarf radius 


\subsection{X-ray variability}

The full (XMM-Newton slew plus Swift-XRT plus XMM-Newton ToO) X-ray
lightcurve of XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933 is shown in
Fig \,\ref{lightcurve}  The calculated (0 2$-$2 0\,keV) flux values
are shown plotted against the number of days since the rev \,1210
XMM-Newton Slew discovery  The first two data points are the
rev \,1210 and the rev \,1246 XMM-Newton Slew observations  Then the
three nested Swift-XRT points are shown and finally the XMM-Newton ToO
observation  The level of RASS upper limit is shown to the bottom
left  The (0 2$-$2 0\,keV) X-ray flux is seen to have dropped by more
than two orders of magnitude in 230 days since the discovery, but is
then seen to have levelled off for the next 120 days, at a level still
$\approx$3 times that of the RASS  Finally, no evidence for any
short-term variability (using time bins down to 100\,s) is seen in the
highest statistic continuous X-ray lightcurve (the $\approx$8 0\,ksec
background-filtered EPIC-pn lightcurve) obtained from the 19/06/07
XMM-Newton observation 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=60 60 550 454,clip,width=8 7cm]{12082f4 ps}
\caption{The full X-ray lightcurve of XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933  Plotted
  are the calculated (0 2$-$2 0\,keV) flux values versus time  The
  first point is the rev \,1210 XMM-Newton Slew observation, then the
  rev \,1246 XMM-Newton Slew observation  The three nested Swift-XRT points
  are shown next and finally the XMM-Newton ToO observation  The RASS upper
  limit is shown bottom left  }
\label{lightcurve}
\end{figure}


\section{Multi-wavelength Follow-up}

\subsection{Swift UVOT}

For the Feb/Mar 2007 Swift observations, we arranged for both the
Swift UVOT-B filter and the UVOT-UVW2 filters to be used in an
approximate exposure time ratio of 1:5, thus ensuring roughly equal
numbers of counts in the two bands (though there is a spectral type
dependency here)  Swift UVOT images in these two filters of the area
of sky around XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933 are shown in Fig \,\ref{uvot} 

Prior to the Swift UVOT observations, a `best-guess' to the possible
candidate optical/IR counterpart would have been the USNO-A2 0 source
0150-04066298 (B~mag: 17 4, R~mag: 16 1), seen 4\arcsec\ south of the
XMM-Newton slew position  The UVOT images however immediately showed
that the optically fainter source at position RA, Dec (J2000) = 06 06
36 4, -69 49 34 3 (error radius: ~0 5\arcsec) was a very strong UVW2
source and very blue, and was very likely the true counterpart to
XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933  (The UVW2 filter spans approximately
800\AA\,, centred at $\approx$1900\AA)

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=-82 210 695 585,clip,width=8 7cm]{12082f5 ps}
\caption{Swift UVOT images of the field around XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933 from observation
  00030895002  Left shows the UVOT B-filter and right shows the the
  UVOT UVW2-filter  The large circle is a 20\arcsec\ radius circle around
  the XMM-Newton Slew position  The small circle in the UVW2 image around the
  bright source is reproduced in the B image, indicating that a faint
  optical source is also visible at this position }
\label{uvot}
\end{figure}

The Swift UVOT pipeline processed data were analysed using the UVOT
photometry package {\em uvotsource} released with
FTOOLs\footnote{http://heasarc nasa gov/lheasoft/ftools/ftools\_menu html} 
This package performs aperture photometry on pre-specified source and
background regions, accounting for photometric- (via PSF fitting) and
coincidence loss- effects using the UVOT calibration files  Source
counts were extracted using a 5\arcsec\ radius aperture centred on the
source, while for the background we used a 10\arcsec\ radius aperture
located in a nearby source-free region   We used a larger background
aperture to effectively smooth over the modulo-8 fixed pattern noise
present in UVOT observations and to improve the statistics of the
background counts  Source counts were converted to UVOT UV-magnitudes
using the UVW2 zero-point calibration released with version~2 8 (Build
22) of the CALDB  The source is seen (see Fig \,\ref{uvotlc}) to be
roughly constant over the short duration of the Swift observations,
with a suggestion of a decline towards the end  This is in keeping
with the general form of the X-ray lightcurve (Fig \,\ref{lightcurve})
at this time 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=80 70 535 380,clip,width=8 7cm]{12082f6 ps}
\caption{Variation of the UVW2 magnitude of the bright UV source
  during the Swift observations  The same time axis as
  Fig \,\ref{lightcurve} has been used to aid comparison, and a zoom
  is also shown  The UVW2 filter was only employed during observations
  00030895002, 00030895004, 00030895005, 00030895006 \& 00030895007
  (hence the points span the dates 07/03/07 to 22/03/07)  The errors here are 1-$\sigma$  }
\label{uvotlc}
\end{figure}

It is possible to include the UVOT-detected flux with the XRT spectrum
described in Section~3  UVOT files, created using {\em uvot2pha} for
the five observations (00030895002, 00030895004, 00030895005,
00030895006 \& 00030895007) where the UVW2 filter was employed, were
incorporated into {\em xspec}, along with the appropriate response
file (swuw2\_20041120v104 rsp) from the Swift-XRT Calibration
Database  We attempted to fit a single black-body spectrum to the
Swift-XRT+UV data (again using C-statistics, the {\em wabs} absorption
model and the {\em wilm} cosmic abundance table, plus the inclusion of
the {\em xspec-redden} component to model the absorption in the UV
band)  The best fit however, with a much lower temperature of
$kT$=$36^{+3}_{-4}$\,eV, is a very poor fit to the data; we obtain a
{\em goodness} P-statistic value of 0 00, based on 5000 random
simulations  This notwithstanding, a flux in the UVW2
(1 57$-$7 77\,eV) band of 3 5$\pm{0 2}\times10^{-13}$\,ergs cm$^{-2}$
s$^{-1}$ can be obtained, corresponding to a UVW2 luminosity, for the
assumed distance of 50\,kpc, of 1 0$\pm{0 1}\times10^{35}$\,ergs
s$^{-1}$ 

The very poor single black-body fit above, plus the large change in
fitted temperature is strongly suggestive that a model other than, or
in addition to the XRT-derived kT=59\,eV black body model (Section~3)
should be used to describe the UVW2 data  As we have no UV data other
than in the UVW2 filter, all that can be done is to apply the
XRT-derived black body model to the UVW2+XRT data, and in doing this,
a large flux excess with respect to the XRT-derived black body model
is seen in the UVW2 band  This is shown in Fig \ref{xrtuvotspec}  This
excess in UV emission (most of the $10^{35}$\,ergs s$^{-1}$ discussed
above) is likely due to a combination of residual post-nova nuclear
burning on the surface of the white dwarf, plus accretion in the disk,
including from emission lines  The situation is likely to be rather
complex, depending on the structure of both the ejecta and the
accretion disk, and is beyond the scope of the present work, where we
only have sparse UV data   For a review of the UV emission from
classical novae, see Shore (2008) 


\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=100 15 580 710,clip,width=6 0cm,angle=270]{12082f7 ps}
\caption{Swift-XRT spectrum (black) from XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933, plus
  the best-fit black-body model to this spectrum (Section~3; Fig \,2),
  but extending into the UV to the Swift-UVOT UVW2 flux points (coloured)
  (see text)  The data points are plotted such that adjacent data
  bins have been grouped together to have a significance of at least
  3  The solid line show the best fit to the Swift-XRT spectrum  The
  ratio of the data to the best fit model is shown in the lower
  panel }
\label{xrtuvotspec}
\end{figure}


\subsection{Magellan optical observations}

On Nov ~13, 14, and 15, 2007, XMMSL1~J060636 2--694933 was observed
with the Low--Dispersion Survey Spectrograph 3 (LDSS3) mounted on the
Magellan Clay telescope  Images were obtained through the Sloan
$g^\prime$, $r^\prime$ and $i^\prime$ filters  On Nov ~15, 2007
conditions were photometric and the Landolt field RU 149A was observed
to flux calibrate the data in the $g^\prime$, $r^\prime$ and
$i^\prime$--bands   The Landolt (1992) magnitudes of the standards
were converted to Sloan magnitudes using the transformations presented
in Smith et al \ (2002)  All the images were debiased and flatfielded
using dome flatfield frames  We applied aperture photometry on each of
the images using DAOPHOT in \textsc{IRAF}\footnote{\textsc {iraf} is
  distributed by the National Optical Astronomy Observatories} to
compute the instrumental magnitudes of the stars  Differential
photometry of the optical counterpart to XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933
(marked by an arrow in Fig ~\ref{magellan}) was performed with respect
to the field star (marked with a `c' in Fig ~\ref{magellan})  This was the
brightest isolated and unsaturated star common to all frames   The
calibrated brightness of this comparison star is $g'= 18 42 \pm 0 04$,
$r'= 17 85 \pm 0 06$ and $i'=17 58 \pm 0 07$ 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=35 215 575 575,clip,width=8 7cm]{12082f8 ps}
\caption{Magellan Clay LDSS3 finder chart  The counterpart to
  XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 (and the bright Swift-UVOT UVW2-filter
  source; Figs \ref{uvot}\&\ref{uvotlc}) is marked with an arrow  The comparison star is
  shown marked with a 'c' }
\label{magellan}
\end{figure}

In addition to the imaging observations described above, we have
obtained spectroscopic observations on Nov ~13, 14, and 15, 2007 using
the VPH All grism, which has 660 lines per mm, and employing a
1\arcsec\ wide slit  This set-up provides a mean dispersion of 2\AA\,
per pixel  For a slit width of 1 arcsecond and a mean seeing close to
1\arcsec, the mean spectral resolution is $\approx$10\AA  On Nov ~13, 2007
we took 4 exposures of 450\,s each, on Nov ~14, 2007 we took 2
exposures of 900\,s each, and on Nov ~15, 2007 we took one 1200\,s
exposure with the slit at the parallactic angle  The spectra were bias
and flatfield corrected, and extracted in \textsc{IRAF}  The
instrumental response was corrected using the spectrophotometric flux
calibrators LTT 3218 (Nov ~13), H600 (Nov ~14) and LTT 9293 (Nov ~15) 
Significant differences in the flux around H$\alpha$ are apparent with
the flux being 50\% higher during the Nov ~15, 2007 with respect to
the Nov ~13, 2007 observations  Since there is no evidence for
brightening in the $r^\prime$ images we attribute the difference to
the fact that the source was not observed at the parallactic angle on
Nov ~13 and 14, 2007  We exported the one dimensional spectra to the
spectral analysis software package \textsc{molly} for further
analysis 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=70 30 600 800,clip,width=6 8cm,angle=270]{12082f9 ps}
\caption{Magellan Clay averaged optical spectrum of the optical source
  associated with XMMSL1 J060636 2-694933  The flux scaling is
  approximate  The prominent strong emission lines are marked (see
  text)  }
\label{optspec}
\end{figure}

We have averaged all spectra (see Fig ~\ref{optspec})  We find several
strong emission lines  The strongest of these emission lines are best
interpreted as due to [OIII] 4958 9\AA\, and 5006 9\AA\,, He~II at
4685 8\AA\, and a blend of the H$\alpha$ plus the [NII] at 6548 1\AA\,
and 6583 4\AA\,, lines found often in novae (Williams 1992)  In this
case the main [OIII] lines appear redshifted by approximately 2000\,km
s$^{-1}$  We interprete this as due to clumpy outflows in the nova
shell  The integrated light from different outflowing parts can also
explain the substructure that is present in the [OIII] lines  The
outflow velocities that we obtain for the H$\alpha$ and H$\beta$ lines
is $\approx$350\,km s$^{-1}$, hence less than that for the [OIII]
lines   Note that, if XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 does reside within the
LMC, then the systematic line-of-sight recession velocity of the LMC,
262$\pm$3 4\,km~s$^{-1}$ (van der Marel et al \ 2002), should be taken
into account; i e \,a good fraction of the observed H$\alpha$ and H$\beta$
recession would then be due to the recession of the LMC itself 

\subsection{Long-term Optical light curve}

Analysis of archival robotic optical survey data from 3-minute CCD
exposures (pixel size 14\arcsec 8), obtained with a 70\,mm (200\,mm
focal length) f/2 8 telephoto lens in the course of the All Sky
Automated Survey (ASAS; Pojmanski 2002) show that the visual magnitude
of this source rose from m$_{V}\raisebox{-1mm}{$\stackrel{>}{\sim}$}$14 to m$_{V}$$\approx$12 between
Sep ~18, 2005 and Sep ~30, 2005, and then declined rapidly thereafter (see
Fig \ref{optlc})  ASAS did not detect any significant emission from
the source after around November 2005, the source having dimmed below
the limiting magnitude of ASAS 

The decline from the brightest data point ($\approx$2 2 magnitudes in
10 days, then a further $\sim$1 3 magnitudes in 46 days) suggests that
this is a nova of the 'very fast' speed class (Warner 1995, Downes
et al \ 2001)  We estimate that the time that the light curve takes to
decline 2 magnitudes below maximum observed brightness is
8$\pm$2\,days (see Section~6) 

\begin{figure}
\centering
\includegraphics[bb=30 78 453 549,clip,width=7 8cm,angle=270]{12082f10 ps}
\caption{All Sky Automated Survey V-band magnitudes of the optical counterpart 
to XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933, during outburst (late September 2005) and afterwards }
\label{optlc}
\end{figure}



\section{Discussion}

The optical spectrum, showing lines of [OIII] 4958 9\AA\, and
5006 9\AA\,, He~II at 4685 8\AA\, and a blend of the H$\alpha$ plus
[NII] at 6548 1\AA\, and 6583 4\AA\, suggests that
XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 was a nova, observed (in Nov 2007) in the late
A$_{0}$ auroral phase  The fact that the observed [OIII] lines are not
in the more usual, optically thin 3:1 ratio, can be explained in terms
of a clumpy outflow scenario, whereby individual clumps of both
rest-frame and redward-shifted material are observed, and the
superposition of these account for the observed [OIII] ratio (note
further that density enhancements can change observed [OIII] ratios to
more like $\sim$1:1)  Clumps of material are often seen in nova ejecta
(e g  Shara et al \ 1997), and outflows of speeds around 2000\,km
s$^{-1}$ are not uncommon in novae (e g  in nova LMC 1991; Schwartz
et al \ 2001) 

XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 was likely at its onset (in Oct 2005) a very
fast, Fe~{\sc ii} nova (Section~3 and Williams et al \ 1991; Williams
et al \ 1994)  An accurate classification now however is not possible,
so late after maximum brightness  The soft ($kT_{\rm
  eff}$$\approx$60--70\,eV) X-ray spectrum indicates that the nova was
in a super-soft source (SSS) state (Krautter 2008) during its
discovery (in July 2006), and throughout its X-ray decline (by more
than two orders of magnitude) in the observations of Sept 2006, March
2007 and June 2007   Such a state originates from nuclear burning on
the surface of the white dwarf, and measurements of the intensity,
duration, and temperature can be used to estimate the distance to the
nova and the mass of the white dwarf (e g  Balman et al \ 1998; Lanz
et al \ 2005)  Indeed, we believe (Section~4) that the white dwarf
within XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 may be quite massive
($>$1 2$M_{\odot}$) 

As discussed earlier, classical novae are almost always discovered
optically in the early phases of their outbursts 
XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 is very unusual therefore in that it has been
discovered first in X-rays  As such, it is useful to compare it with
XMMSL1~J070542 7-381442 (also known as V598 Pup; Read et al \ 2008),
another nova recently discovered (in X-rays) in the XMM-Newton slew
survey  With a peak $m_{V}$ of $\ltsim12$, XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 is
not a particularly bright nova (c f  V598 Pup, which reached an
m$_{V}$ of $\raisebox{-1mm}{$\stackrel{<}{\sim}$}$4), and so it is not surprising that it went
unnoticed, only being discovered in X-rays during the later (here
291\,days after the outburst), optically thin nebular phase, when
classical novae are typically observed as soft X-ray sources  Though
this delay should be taken as a upper limit, it is long when compared
to V598 Pup ($\raisebox{-1mm}{$\stackrel{<}{\sim}$}$127 days), but may instead be more similar to the
delays of $\sim$200 days seen in V1974 Cyg (Krautter et al \ 1996),
$\sim$6 months of V382 Vel (Orio et al \ 2002), and 6$-$8 months of
V1494 Aql (Drake et al \ 2003)  In their X-ray monitoring of optical
novae in M31, Pietsch et al \ (2007) detect 11 out of 34 novae in
X-rays within a year after their optical outbursts  Seven novae are
seen to be X-ray bright, several (3$-$9) years after outburst, and
three novae showed very short X-ray outbursts, starting within
50\,days of outburst, but lasting only two to three months 
XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 therefore is not particularly unusual 

A method to estimate the distance to the nova is to use the relation
between the absolute magnitude at maximum brightness and the time that
the light curve takes to decline 2 magnitudes below maximum
brightness, $t_{2}$ (Della Valle \& Livio 1995)  We have no
information over the 12 days between the data point of maximum
brightness and the lower limit prior to this (Fig \,\ref{optlc}), and
therefore we have no exact outburst date, nor exact apparent
magnitude at outburst   Assuming for the moment though that we have
caught the outburst exactly in the Sep ~30, 2005 observation, then we
can estimate (Sect ~5 3) $t_{2}$ to be 8$\pm$2\,days, and using this,
we can estimate (Della Valle \& Livio 1995) the absolute magnitude at
maximum brightness $M_{V}$ to be --8 7$\pm$0 6  An absolute magnitude
of $M_{V}$=--8 7 implies a peak luminosity $\sim$7 times the Eddington
luminosity for a 1\,$M_{\odot}$ white dwarf  This is quite typical of
novae 

With $A_{V}$=0 39$^{+0 05}_{-0 09}$ (90\% error), as derived (Predehl
\& Schmitt 1995) from $N_{\rm
  H}$=6 9$^{+1 0}_{-1 6}\times10^{20}$\,cm$^{-2}$ (from the highest
statistic spectral fit; the XMM-Newton ToO observation), and with
$M_{V}$=--8 7$\pm$0 6, and a peak $m_{V}$ of 12 0, we can derive a
distance to XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 of 115$^{+43}_{-30}$\,kpc   As
discussed above however, we are unsure as to the exact outburst date
and the maximum brightness at outburst  Our assumed peak $m_{V}$ of
12 0 is almost certainly an underestimation  Although we have no
information in the 12 days prior to Sep ~30, 2005, a simple linear
extrapolation of the early October lightcurve back prior to Sep ~30,
2005 suggests that the actual peak $m_{V}$ was somewhere between 9 and
12  The corresponding distance estimates are then between 29 and
115\,kpc (with a mid-point $m_{V}$=10 5 value yielding a distance
estimate of 58\,kpc)  Many methods have been used to estimate the
distance to the LMC (e g   Kovacs 2000, Nelson et al \ 2000), but a
value of around 50\,kpc appears to be quite robust  Our distance
estimate is certainly consistent with that of the LMC, though the
errors are quite large   It does appear to be the case however, that
our distance estimate places the source far outside of our own Galaxy 
This, together with the source's position on the sky (at the eastern
edge of the LMC) and the sizable ($\sim$Galactic) X-ray hydrogen
column densities obtained from the spectral fits, suggest strongly
that XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 lies within the LMC itself   Note further
that the (pile-up corrected) spectral model normalizations to the
initial Slew discovery data (Sect ~2) also imply an approximate
distance to XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933 of $\sim$50\,kpc 

The source had, at the time of the slew detection, an absorbed
(0 2$-$2\,keV) X-ray flux of 4 8$^{+2 7}_{-1 6}\times10^{-11}$\,ergs
cm$^{-2}$ s$^{-1}$, corresponding to a 0 2$-$2\,keV X-ray luminosity
(at 50\,kpc) of 1 4$^{+0 8}_{-0 5}\times10^{37}$\,ergs s$^{-1}$ 
Assuming instead for the moment a distance more like 100\,kpc (though
this is thought to be well beyond the LMC, e g  Kovacs 2000), then the
(0 2$-$2\,keV) X-ray luminosity of
5 7$^{+3 0}_{-1 9}\times$$10^{37}$\,erg s$^{-1}$ obtained is at the high end of the X-ray luminosities of
classical SSS-phase novae discussed e g \,in Orio et al \ (2002) and
Ness et al \ (2007)  As discussed though, we have very likely missed
the outburst peak, and as such, our more probable assumed distance of
50\,kpc gives rise to a more typical SSS-phase X-ray luminosity   The
luminosities of 7$-$8$\times$$10^{34}$\,erg s$^{-1}$, obtained during
the Swift and pointed XMM-Newton observations, are more typical of
novae at later times, when the emission can also sometimes be
described by a thermal plasma, rather than a black-body type spectrum,
or a more mixed spectrum, due to the complex structure of the ejecta
and the accretion disk (Krautter 2008, Shore 2008) 


\section{Conclusions}

A bright X-ray source, XMMSL1~J060636 2-694933, was detected in an
XMM-Newton slew on 18 July 2006 at a position where no previous X-ray
source had been seen  The XMM-Newton slew data, plus follow-up dedicated
XMM-Newton and Swift observations, plus optical imaging and
spectroscopic data acquired with the Magellan Clay telescope and 
All-Sky Automated Survey (ASAS) data were used to classify the new object
as a nova, and to examine its properties  The primary conclusions are
as follows:

  \begin{itemize}

  \item The soft X-ray spectrum indicates that the nova was in a
    super-soft source (SSS) state at its discovery in July 2007
    (XMM-Newton slew) and through its X-ray decline (by over two
    orders of magnitude) in September 2006 (XMM-Newton slew), March
    2007 (Swift) and June 2007 (XMM-Newton) 

  \item The Magellan optical spectrum (Nov 2007) of the source
    indicates that it was very likely then a nova in the late
    A$_{0}$ auroral phase 

  \item The very fast optical decline (ASAS) during the nova's onset
    (Oct 2005), indicates that the initial nova was likely of speed class
    'very fast' 

  \item The very fast speed, together with the absolute magnitude at
    maximum brightness and the X-ray absorption, give rise to a
    distance to the source far beyond our own Galaxy  The large
    distance, together with the source's position in the sky, at the
    eastern edge of the LMC, and the spectral information from the
    X-ray data, are very suggestive that the nova is situated within
    the LMC itself 

  \item Analysis of XMM-Newton slew data is continuing to provide a
    powerful means of finding new X-ray transient objects 

\end{itemize}

\begin{acknowledgements}

  The XMM-Newton project is an ESA Science Mission with instruments
  and contributions directly funded by ESA Member States and the USA
  (NASA)  The XMM-Newton project is supported by the Bundesministerium
  f\"ur Wirtschaft und Technologie/Deutsches Zentrum f\"ur Luft- und
  Raumfahrt (BMWI/DLR, FKZ 50 OX 0001), the Max-Planck Society and the
  Heidenhain-Stiftung  AMR and PE acknowledge the support of STFC
  funding, and PGJ of the Netherlands Organisation for Scientific
  Research  The ASAS project is supported by the N2030731/1328 grant
  from the MNiSzW  We thank the referee (G \,Sala) for very useful
  comments and several references that have improved the paper
  notably  We thank Kim Page for providing the white dwarf atmosphere
  model, and we thank her and Graham Wynn for useful discussions  The
  use of the spectral analysis software package \textsc{molly} written
  by Tom Marsh is also acknowledged  MM acknowledges support by a
  Miller Institute Research Fellowship during the time in which part
  of the work was completed 

\end{acknowledgements}


Context 2: HOFFMAN: I'm delighted to introduce the chair of the last session, Mara Liasson from the National Public Radio  Mara is Congressional correspondent for NPR, and covers activities in Congress in D C  Right now, this week, she has been covering the tax bill, which people currently are going at hot and heavy  She took time off from her busy schedule to come here to help us sort out some of these key issues for today, and more importantly, for what happens in the next decade and beyond  I'll turn it over to Mara to get the panel going 
LIASSON: Thank you very much  I am probably the only person here who has absolutely no background in technology  Anyway, I am the only one who does not understand what the panelists are going to be talking about (laughter), and although they have already told me that they do not appreciate people who think that that's a great quality and look down on people who are technical, and I certainly do not, I will reserve the right to insist that they all talk in terms that people like me can understand, since there is more of me out there than you, although not in this room today  (laughter) What we are going to do is introduce each panelist, and each one will make a short three- to five-minute presentation  Then my instructions say that we are going to have a McLaughlin Group discussion, which I guess means lots of yelling and screaming and talking at once  (laughter) After that's over, about 4:10, we'll open up the panel for questions from the audience 
To my left is Peter Denning, who is Chairman of the Computer Science Department at George Mason University and also the associate dean for computing  He is the program chair of this conference, has also served as the president of ACM, and he is currently the editor of Communications 
Simon Davies, to my right, also wears blue suits, but you can tell him from Mitch, because he wears a white hat  (laughter) He is from Sydney, Australia, and is the Director General of Privacy International, which is an international network of privacy advocates  He is also an author, a journalist, and radio commentator 
To his right is Roland Homet  He is an information policy writer and thinker who recently opened his own public policy writing firm here in Washington -- it's called Executive Ink, not Inc , as it is written in your programs, so you can scratch that out 
Esther Dyson, at the end of the panel, is among the most respected commentators on developing technology trends in the personal computer business  She publishes two newsletters, Release 1 0 and Rel-EAST  She has also been one of the driving forces promoting East-West relations through computer networks  She is a board member of the Electronic Frontier Foundation as well 
I'll ask Peter to start 
P  DENNING: Thank you  Starting around 1850, people of many countries looked to their governments to regulate commerce, erase inequities, and build societies of better human beings  For over a hundred years, many people, from peasants to intellectuals, had faith that strong governments would bring them a better life  This faith was part of the clearing in which Communist governments flourished; although the United States took an anti-Communist stand, the same faith fostered a strong government that promised salvation by great national programs including Social Security, welfare, food stamps, the War on Poverty, and the Great Society  This faith is now shattered  People no longer trust that powerful government can deliver a better life 
The dramatic collapse of Communism in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union illustrates this, as does the growing disillusionment of the American people for federal, state, and local governments  The poor track record of government is not the only reason for the shift  Information technology has accelerated the process  Communications that took weeks in the last century now take fractions of a second  Business success depends on what happens around the globe, not only on local conditions  Radio, TV, fax, and now E-mail are common worldwide, so much so that not even a powerful government can control what information its citizens have  Because the space of opportunity for people to engage in transactions with each other has been so enormously enlarged during the past decade, faith in marketplace democracies is on the rise worldwide; correspondingly faith in central management mechanisms is on the decline  This shift has brought with it a shift of the power of institutions  Government institutions tend to try to hold onto their power by regulatory coercion to enforce the old ways  This can produce big tensions and even promote breakage 
Nowhere can this be seen more clearly than in the cryptographic area which we have just been talking about in the previous hour  This technology, cryptography, produces mechanisms for digital signatures, authentication, electronic money, certificates, and private communication -- all offering a way for standard business practices now based on paper to be shifted into the electronic media  The success of worldwide enterprises depends on this shift being completed rapidly and effectively  As more people realize this, the momentum for incorporating cryptographic technology into the information infrastructure is accelerating 
In this country, the National Security Agency has long been given the authority to regulate cryptography  This authority was granted in another time when the success of the country depended upon the ability of its government to gather intelligence and communicate in secret  These premises made sense in a world where most of the power resided in governments, but the world is changing  Much economic power is now accumulating in large apolitical transnational corporations  These corporations place their own concerns and strategies ahead of those of governments of the countries in which they do business  Like governments, they are interested in gathering intelligence about competitors and in conducting business in private  Unlike governments, they want open access to the technologies of authentication, electronic money, digital signatures, and certificates that will allow them to conduct business transactions across the network  So it is no longer true that national power and national security are increased when government has the sole right to gather intelligence and encipher communications  Now the strength of a country depends not only on its government, but also on its corporations  The old premises have fallen away in the new reality, but the old policy remains  It's time to rethink the policy, before tensions between a threatened government and corporations produce significant social tension and perhaps breakage 
Well, digital media -- computer-based communications -- are the printing press of the 21st century, and as the printing press transformed society, created the modern individual, gave rise to the basis of the democratic state and to the notion of individual rights, I suspect that we will see a similar, radical transformation of the very constitution of global society in the next century, facilitated by this enabling technology  I would be the last person to try to sketch out the details, or tell you what the issues are going to be, but I want to share with you some feelings about what is really going to matter, as we go about this -- and I'll start with something about myself 
You see a guy wearing a suit; most of you know I have a lot of money -- I'm a successful businessman  God knows what images propagate around the media and settle in people's minds, but I've always seen myself, and felt myself to the core of my being, as an outsider, every bit as much as a self-proclaimed outsider, as Tom Jennings -- who spoke so eloquently about this at the Pioneer awards* yesterday -- was  *The Electronic Freedom Foundation presented its first awards at a related, adjacent reception which was not formally a part of the conference 
I think we are all outsiders; we are all different, all unique  We're not the same  We share an underlying common humanity, but we should not be asked to subjugate ourselves to some form of mass society that causes us each to become indistinguishable from one another  I believe that computer- based communications technology is an enabling technology to liberate individuals and to free us from the oppressive influence of large institutions, whether those are public or private  And I am talking about an economic restructuring that results in a much more decentralized society, and social restructuring in an affirmation of the simple right to be left alone  I think Cyberspace is good for individuals, and I think that's important  I also think that the flip side of the coin, the creation of community, which we so sorely lack in this country today, can be facilitated through these technologies 
I have experienced that for myself, as many of you have on your various computer networks on conferencing systems like the WELL  It is enormously liberating to overcome the artificial boundaries of space and time  We are prisoners of geography in the physical world, and our communities are largely a product of who we can see face to face each day, even though our real comrades and colleagues may be scattered all over the world and our interests -- whether they are hobbies or political interests or religious interests, whatever they might be -- can be facilitated if we are able to get in touch with, to form bonds with, to exchange views and ideas with other kindred spirits  And I believe this technology is an enabling technology for the formation of community  My hope is that we will have the wisdom to create policies which enable individuals to flourish free from the chains of mass society, and which enable voluntary communities of people, individuals, groups who come together to be with each other and to work together  I hope both of those become possible 
DAVIES: I feel very warmed by the various visions of the future that have come out of this conference, but I am a cynic, and cynicism is good, because it adds fiber  (laughter) How nice the world would be if everyone was like Mitch, but they're not, because the future is in the hands of ruthless, greedy little men 
I want to paint the vision of the future that I have, and I hope it's not too depressing because there is a future, a good future    possibly  I agree, as many of you do, that the future is going to be like some giant informational Yggdrasil* *Reference from Old Norse mythology -- the Yggdrasil was a giant ash tree whose roots held together the universe   We'll all be part of interconnectivity, the likes of which we can scarcely imagine right now  I imagine it will be like an organism where we're independent and interdependent, and so it's like a two-edged sword  That's all very nice, and we can see that we form part of that new community  But, I see a world with 15 billion beings scrambling for life, where four-fifths of the world lives on half a liter of water a day, where people grow up to see their children dying, where new political frontiers are destroying freedoms and the democracy that we have developed over the last two centuries  I see a world where there is very little hope for nearly everybody on the planet, except for the elite -- that's us -- except for those of us who are plugged into the informational Yggdrasil 
What I see is that 14 of those 15 billion people are a lot of pissed-off people who have their eyes set on what they see, not as a wonderful informational community, but as the beast  And they see that that is where the resources are, and that's where the opportunities are, and that's where the political power is  I can't see a future for us in a world where ultimately the great demon becomes information  It might be good for us, but for the disaffected four-fifths of the world, information is going to be something which, frankly, we can do without, because in a world with almost no resources left, surely information is selfishness 
HOMET: Thank you  I'm grateful to the organizers for including me in these proceedings -- they are reminiscent for me of some information policy conferences that I organized 15 to 20 years ago for the Aspen Institute  The particulars have certainly changed, but the dynamics remain much the same  For me, these are well-represented by Peter Denning's image of a changeable clearing in the woods  At any given time, as I see it, the clearing is an acceptable standoff between the forces of modernization and of traditional culture, between freedom and discipline, between structure and spontaneity  Now we voice these as opposites, but in fact, they need each other  It is the creative tension between technological innovation and established order that allows society to hold together and progress to take place  Take away freedom and order will be overthrown -- witness the Soviet Union  Take away tradition, and modernization will be crushed -- witness Iran  The clearing must be respected and it must move  Just as Benjamin Cardozo of the U S  Supreme Court said 65 years ago, the genius of the American system is its penchant for ordered liberty  When both halves of the equation work against each other and together in Hegelian terms, the clearing that they produce is, at any given time, a prevailing hypothesis, which is challenged by a new antithesis  Together they can produce a fresh synthesis  And all that is very familiar  What is new and trying is the sweep and pace of innovation today, plus -- and this is what we sometimes forget -- the political volatility of the value systems that this can induce  If you doubt that, consider the Buchanan campaign and what's been going on with the Endowment for the Arts and public broadcasting  These are signs of people running scared, and they can cause damage 
So the answer for the 21st century is to proceed under power, but with restraint, to practice what Mitch Kapor in another connection called toleration for opposing forces and perspectives  We need each other to keep the enterprise together and on course  For computer practitioners represented in this room, this means restraint from provoking unnecessary and damaging social backlash  A good example might be New York telcos offering free per-call and per-line blocking with this caller identification service  For regulators and law enforcers, restraint means asking, "Do you know enough to freeze emerging conduct in a particular form or pattern?" I was very taken by the role reversal exercise organized by Michael Gibbons on Wednesday night  It led me to wonder what might have happened to the government's wiretapping and encryption proposals had they been subjected to a comparable advanced exercise before introduction 
Sixteen years ago in Aspen, Colorado, I convened a gathering of federal policymakers and invited them to consider a suggested matrix of policy values and processes in the information society  The first two of those values -- it will not surprise you to know -- were freedom of discourse and individual privacy  But there were more: freedom of economic choice is one; the general welfare another; popular sovereignty, worth pausing on, I described as avoiding concentrations of economic and political power in any sector of industry or government that impinge unduly on the freedoms or welfare of the citizenry  And then there is progress, social progress, the fostering, I said, of market incentives and opportunities for technological and service innovations and for widened consumer choice among technologies and services  Now obviously if you give just a moment's thought to it, you will recognize, as I think we have in this conference, that these values can collide with each other at key points, and therefore accommodations must be made  For that we need processes of accommodation  I also suggested some of those  After you identify the relevant values and goals, you then should ask yourself about the necessity and the appropriateness of having government make any decision on the matter  And this has to do with such things like the adequacy of decision-making standards, the availability of adequate information, and the adequacy of personnel resources to deal with it  Then you get into dividing up the possible roles of the various elements of government -- the regulatory agencies, the Executive Branch, the Judiciary, and the Congress  It doesn't stop there, because you need to ask about international implications, which we have done some of here  And federal/state implications -- very often allowing the state to make a stab at social ordering in the first instance is, as Justice Brandeis often said, the best way, through the social laboratory technique, to try out what is the right answer, without endangering the whole society  And as we have heard today, we need also to think about the availability of non-coercive instruments of accommodation, like a federal data protection board 
DYSON: I want to just say one thing about this business of crypto technology -- it is a very simple sentence, and everyone seems to slip slightly by it; that is, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns  Crypto technology is fundamentally a defensive weapon  It may protect murderers and thieves, but it is not a weapon that murders, kills, does anything bad; and so it is a very different kettle of fish from any other kind of weapon  The whole point is that information is powerful, and that the free flow of information, privacy-protected, empowers the powerless and is dangerous to the powerful -- and that's why we need our privacy protected 
Now let me just talk a wee bit about the future  A couple of days ago, a reporter called me and asked what the EFF stood for  I kind of floundered around and said, "Well, we want privacy, we want good hackers to be protected and bad crackers to be punished  We want people to understand the difference, and we want all these good things, but we really don't want to grab power " The guy kept on not quite getting it  The real answers were pro choice  We don't want someone else to make all these decisions for anybody  We don't even want the majority to rule  In every way that is possible, we want the minorities to control their own conditions in their own lives  There are very few things that are the province of government, but way too many things nowadays are being given to the government carelessly, fearfully, whatever  In my terms -- and I happen to be a right-wing person in terms of the economy and private freedoms -- I want more markets and fewer governments  Markets give choices to individuals  They let people trade what they don't want for what they do want  Again, to the extent possible, they want people to make individual choices 
What worries me is large concentrations of power, making choices for people  Big business, big government, even big media  The media until now have mostly been our protectors, because they go out and produce information, they use anonymous sources where necessary, and they make that information free  What protected global networking is going to do is give more and more of that power to individuals, and help reduce the power of big institutions of any kind  We are going to have small businesses flourishing, because it is easier for them to collect resources  You don't need to have a giant monolithic corporation to be efficient any more, and so a lot of marketplace economies of scale will even disappear, as we have better networking, better coordination  We have markets like the American Information Exchange, and if you don't know what that is, come and see me, or Hugh Daniel, or a couple of other people 
On the social side, I think 20 years ago    when you mentioned 15 years ago, I thought, Yes, that must have been about 1940  Then I realized    Anyway, some time ago there was all this talk about the global village  We're going to have mass broadcasting, we're going to have mass E-mail, we're going to have this global village  We don't  What we have is a lot of global villages, but as Mitch said, they're no longer geographical, physical villages  They're small, geographical villages of people with like interests  The big question becomes, How do we avert tribalism? It might not be nation against nation any more, but it certainly will be rich against poor, and franchised versus disenfranchised 
LIASSON: Thank you all very much  Now we can all try to stir up the pot a little bit  Somewhere between Mitch's paradise and the Simon's apocalypse is probably what's really going to happen  I want to just jump off from what Esther said about you all being in a minority and what kind of responsibility you owe to the rest of the world  We're in the midst of a presidential election and not one single candidate has said anything about Cyberspace  I am wondering if you think they should, and what are the kinds of extremely important issues that you think should be discussed? Should they be discussed in a kind of mass, political forum? Or should they be left to an elite like you to discuss and decide, and not really spend a whole lot of energy trying to translate or disseminate them to the great masses of people? I guess what I am wondering is, if you were an advisor to one of the presidential candidates, or a candidate yourself, how would you go about interjecting these things? Or wouldn't you bother at all?
DYSON: Does he want to get elected, or does he want to make a point?
LIASSON: I think he wants to make a point  If he wants to get elected, I think the discussion would stop right now 
DYSON: Let me just try a serious answer  I think what a candidate could say is, "I'm no longer going to protect the textile industry, the peanut butter interests, the sugar guys, the antediluvian steel mills  If I'm going to have an industrial policy and help anyone, it's going to be new technology  I'm going to focus on investment in R&D  I am going to create a national infrastructure for telecommunications, just the way we created a highway system years ago  I'm going to put people to work doing these things " I think that would go over reasonably well  I think it's something most of us would agree on  (laughter) We have an industrial policy -- we might as well acknowledge it, and we might as well have it be forward-looking 
KAPOR: Now there is something about the question as to whether this is presidential material that I think is ironic, given that most people really want to vote for "none of the above " We know in our hearts that we have come to a particular period in history in which the presidential spectacle seems to be particularly irrelevant to whatever set of problems we have on our minds  As a great believer in democracy, I think this is incredibly lamentable  We need to do something about this, because there are a lot of issues, but Cyberspace is not ready for prime time  It would be trivialized -- I have seen what Geraldo did to hackers, and I don't need to see any more 
It seems to me that the presidential candidates are really not the leaders that they ought to be, but are always putting their finger to the wind to see if they can detect some current of values or beliefs that can help get them elected  And I think that -- I'm not espousing utopian vision -- there needs to be an utopian vision out there, so people have something to give them some inspiration  But values are a lot more important than technology  There are some values in this community -- and I'm not sure if it's an elite or a minority or both -- but it's really in the propagation of a sense of values about openness and tolerance, acting on that basis and living one's life, and saving capitalism from itself and things like that where we can make a difference  If some of the expressions are technological, that's fine  We are living in an era where people like buttons, and so on  If we do that well, the presidential candidates are going to be coming to us 
LIASSON: You talk about Cyberspace not being ready for prime time -- I still want a definition of Cyberspace in 25 words or less -- but I think you want to transform prime time to a certain extent 
DYSON: Mostly I agree with this, but the press does have two roles: one is collecting information and uncovering things, and the other is setting the agenda  If 12,000 voices are crying out, who's going to listen to them? Who's going to notice when they do discover that the President did something wrong? Again, it's a check and balance sort of thing, but there is a certain community that is created by collective media 
KAPOR: Esther, what makes you believe that in Cyberspace Mara won't have two hours a day of her own that everyone listens to  (laughter) She might get more time than she gets today, because people trust her 
DYSON: But then she becomes prime time 
LIASSON: But you said before that instead of one global village, we have a lot of little global villages  I'm wondering if instead, we won't have millions of little huts  I mean individual huts  There are just so many different choices 
LIASSON: What I'm wondering is, if everybody becomes their own producer, publisher, what does that mean for the future?
KAPOR: I think we'll get a much more fluid, self-organizing state  I don't think in practice everybody is going to be what we think of today as a broadcast publisher  I just want things to be able to sort themselves out in a much more equitable fashion  We have this enormous, artificial scarcity today over the means of communication, because the government awards licenses which self-perpetuate  They are about to do the same thing, and give every broadcast television station another license for HDTV
Context 3: Transport Aircraft for IAF - Page 67 - Bharat Rakshak
Transport Aircraft for IAF
Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF
Postby abhik » 17 Nov 2014 05:55
+1, Air India recently sold their entire fleet of Boeing 777s 
afaik the A330 MRTT does not make any structural mods or add anything internally in cargo or passenger cabin  it just relies on the intrinsic 110 tons of fuel  external refueling pods are added and internally the control station and cameras for the operator i guess 
so its a easy conversion from a passenger layout to the AAR mode - mostly ripping out the passenger cabin of all extra stuff and retuning the FCS for any changes in COG 
this should have been pursued years ago
the IL78 adds a palletized drum tank system inside its cargo bay due to paucity of intrinsic fuel but it can be removed and a/c converted back to cargo hauling or send off to russia for Phalcon structural mods if we want it that way  they will however need to change engines to PS90 as they have the old engines
http://www airplane-pictures net/images     7/5616 jpg
the RAF is already gone that route in 2011
http://www defensenews com/article/2011     -Refuelers
LONDON - Airbus Military has delivered the first of 12 A330-200 airliners due to be converted into in-flight refueling planes for the British Royal Air Force by Cobham Aviation Services 
The aircraft, part of an order of 14 jets, will be modified with aerial refueling pods and other equipment at Cobham's newly refurbished facility in Bournemouth, England  The first two aircraft have already been converted by Airbus in Spain 
The multirole tanker aircraft are being provided to the RAF under a private finance initiative service deal led by Airbus parent EADS 
Seven of the planes will be operated full time by the RAF  The remainder will be available for lease in the third-party market, with the proviso that they can be returned to British military service to meet any surge in demand 
All of the aircraft, to be known as the Voyager in RAF service, will be fitted with two wing-mounted refueling pods, while half the fleet will also be fitted for, but not necessarily with, a center-line mounted unit  The refueling units are being supplied by Cobham 
The first aircraft will become operational in a passenger and freight transport role by the end of this year to start relieving pressure on the RAF's hard-pressed assets 
Despite the increasing fragility of current RAF in-flight refueling operations, the new capability is not contracted to start being used in this role until 2015 
All 14 Voyagers are scheduled to be available for RAF operations by the middle of the decade  The A330 will replace the increasingly ancient Tristar and VC-10 refuelers now in service 
Push the 6 Il-476 from refueler to AEW duty  Phalcon them up
Not sure if that is a good path to follow  For one they all should be sent to pasture in about 8 years  Then if the are to be phalconed up - the requires major structural changes  Not worth that cost 
Whatever happened ot the two new ones that were supposed ot be ordered?
the IL78 can be easily converted back to IL76 cargo hauling  only the fuel tank inside cargo bay needs removal   infact that was even mentioned in initial days as swing role fuel/cargo 
Postby Cybaru » 17 Nov 2014 07:55
I am talking about the new il78 that we ordered recently in refueling role  Sorry for the mix up  They are the same platform, that I why i used 476 or 76 to identify it 
777 carries more internal fuel than the A330  We suck!
From the KC-777 program 
http://www globalsecurity org/military/     kc-777 htm
"the KC-777 would be 209 feet long with a wingspan of 212 feet, 7 inches  That's the same size as the 777-200LR commercial jet  The KC-777 would be able to carry far more fuel, cargo and passengers than either the KC-767 or the Airbus A330 tanker  The KC-767 offers more operational flexibility, while the KC-777 would be better suited for long-range strategic missions in which more cargo needs to be delivered  The KC-777 would be able to carry more than 350,000 pounds (160,000 kilograms) of fuel and offload more than 220,000 pounds (100,000 kg) of it on a mission of 500 nautical miles (900 kilometers)  On the other hand, the KC-767 can lift off with more than 200,000 pounds (90,000 kg) of fuel and offload more than 130,000 pounds (60,000 kg) in a similar mission  The KC-777 would be able to deliver 200 percent more fuel after flying 1,000 nautical miles than older Air Force KC-135s  The KC-777 could carry up to 37 pallets of cargo, compared to the 19 pallets for the KC-767 "
Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Nov 2014 04:31
Viv S wrote: From Ajai Shukla's article -
HAL points out that, since each Avro flies barely 350 hours every year, most of them have a residual life of about 80,000 hours  In a request for information (RFI) released on August 15, HAL has proposed replacing the aircraft’s engines (Rolls Royce Dart) with “modern fuel efficient engines” 
So, the IAF's Avros have a residual life of 228 years at the current rate of usage  Ain't life grand?
At zero up time, it could reach infinity 
Relax Cy  Kc777 has no client  Usaf is going with kc767 and almost everyone else with a330 
We don't have the number of heavies and long missions of usaf else I would say convert an124 
KC777 will be extremely expensive given the demand/backlog for the 777 and the 777x  Any buyer would have to virtually pay for the increase in capacity 
I think the 767 production line is closed  so the proposed KC767 Boeing is supposed to deliver 18 by 2017  that can be managed from mothballed and cargo hauler airframes on the market 
but to meet the final order of around 180 will they not have to open the production line unless such a huge number were available on the market?
I do get the spider feel this program again will be cancelled in favour of a in-production plane like the 777X ?
I wasn't suggesting we get the KC777  All I was doing was comparing what possibly the 777 could offload compared to A330  It carries 171000 liters of fuel versus 130000 liters that the A330 carries  If we had older 777s in stock, we could have quite easily converted them to this config  The cost to us would be miniscule just the refurbishing cost vs acquiring a new type 
Singha wrote: I think the 767 production line is closed  so the proposed KC767 Boeing is supposed to deliver 18 by 2017  that can be managed from mothballed and cargo hauler airframes on the market 
The Line is open, they have a backlog of around 50 (All Fed ex), with Fed Ex placing a small order this year  The Pegasus order is for all new builds, and so will the follow on order  The only reason for any nation to buy the 767 tanker is going to be because of the ability to hard bargain with Boeing given that the commercial future of the 767 is dead  This also allows a potential buyer to purchase cheap spares from the open market, or club its logistical and inventory purchase with that of the USAF  Other than that and perhaps availability (which would be doubtful once USAF pushes through a larger order) there is really no technical reason to purchase the this tanker over the A330 which by all accounts is a superior tanker in addition to being a much much better airliner in general 
IAI is doing conversations for the 767 and its called the 767 MMTT
http://www iai co il/sip_storage/FILES/1/38471 pdf
Cybaru wrote: I wasn't suggesting we get the KC777  All I was doing was comparing what possibly the 777 could offload compared to A330  It carries 171000 liters of fuel versus 130000 liters that the A330 carries  If we had older 777s in stock, we could have quite easily converted them to this config  The cost to us would be miniscule just the refurbishing cost vs acquiring a new type 
The cost of converting a commercial airliner to a tanker, certifying it and running a full fledged test program is by no means small  There is absolutely no justification for that sort of cost over and above the capability that that A330 provides  If it were a certified and tested conversion, that would be a different matter 
Postby Kartik » 21 Nov 2014 12:27
Cybaru wrote:
Why? If the airframe can handle more flight hours, why not?
because it is a very very old airframe as is  Maintenance spares won't be available easily even as of now, then imagine how it'll be 20-30 years from now   and as things stood anyway, the HS-748 offered very little in terms of payload and range versus a C-295 class aircraft  The C-295 offers a very credible light transport, whereas the HS-748's role in the IAF was more akin to a transport trainer and for communication duties with little operational use  Having seen a dozen or so HS-748s parked at Vadodara airport all through my childhood, I never once saw one in the air  They just seemed to be stored out in the open  Upon asking an IAF transport pilot who was my friend's father, he remarked "zyaada kaam ke nahi hain yeh" 
Why would you expend more capital on what is essentially an obsolete airframe, even if theoretically it had not yet reached its service life? You'd have to re-engine it, put new avionics on board and even that wouldn't suffice for para dropping requirements  it was operationally never suitable for para dropping, which is an important mission for transport aircraft and had deficiencies in hot and high climes as well 
Unfortunately, the 748 was never meant to be a military transport  At the request of IAF, its door was enlarged to enable larger cargo items to be loaded and to allow para dropping without hitting the tail plane



ground_truth: 4.5x10^8 cm.

prompt_front: Now, answer the following question based on the text below, only give me the answer and do not output any other words.

Question: Who is the program chair of this conference?

Read the following text and answer briefly.

Context 2:  So if you've got a license today, you get a second one; if you don't have one, you get nothing  That is going to be our policy about HDTV  I think it would be a lot better if we had more markets, more choices, and better values  I don't know how to do better values, but we know how to do more choices  So the point is, we'll wind up with some new regime which I don't think that we can particularly predict  I don't think that it is going to be chaotic or anarchic  I think there is something about people as social animals or creatures -- we will create some new forms of social organization  There will be information middlemen; there will be the equivalent of editors and packagers  There will be trusted intermediaries who help organize these new media  If you open it up and equalize things so that everybody can participate, you will get more diversity of points of view, you will get less homogenization  One of the reasons that tons of people have just dropped out, or are in terminal couch-potato-dom is that the sets of choices and the values that come across the tube are not ones that stir the human heart  And people know that  They can't figure out what to do about that, so they sort of fuzz out on drugs and alcohol  I say let's edit TV, which is the electronic drug  Let's do something about that 
DAVIES: I like your idea, Mitch  I think it's sweet  (laughter) The problem is that I really worry that the ultimate test of the future is going to be the outcome of the quest, the battle between those who are looking for the sort of vision you've got of the right of the individual, the individual being the producer  And that, probably, is the way we solve our problems on this planet  But there is the other side, and that's the planetary managers  Planetary management is the path of the least resistance  You know all the powermongers go for the planetary management model, because they all think they can clamber over the bodies to get to the top  Ultimately the test is going to be who comes out on the top, the individual rightist or the planetary managers  Unfortunately, I'm not a betting man, but at the moment I'd like to bet on the planetary managers 
DYSON: Part of this issue is reducing the value of incumbency, whether it's incumbency in prime time live, or incumbency in the government  There is much more fluidity of movement; you can't accumulate power because the unorganized forces have more power than you do 
P  DENNING: I feel a little strange being on the left end of the stage, because most people think of me as being on the far right sometimes, but right now I'd like to comment on something that is halfway between what Mitch is saying, and what Simon is saying  The way I hear what Simon is saying, is that there is a disease of today which I will call inward- centeredness  We are very worried about ourselves and our organizations  We find in that orientation a lot of instability of things and technologies that change rapidly  In order to achieve the world that Mitch is talking about, we need to cure the disease, and instead come from an orientation that we could call outward-centeredness, instead of inward-centeredness  The question is the shift from, How do we accumulate power? to, How do we help others accumulate power? How do we go from looking for stability in things to looking for stability in relationships? In watching my own children grow up, I am convinced that they know more about this than I do  In listening to some of the younger people here, I'm more convinced that they know more about this than I do  They know something about the outward-centeredness that I have yet to learn  Observing this among children and among students gives me a lot of optimism, as a matter of fact, against the apocalypse that Simon talks about, because Simon is talking about the world that would be created if we continued "us," and I think that the world that is being created by our children with their outward-centeredness is going to be the kind of world that Mitch is pointing towards  And I am much more optimistic about that than Simon is 
LIASSON: Roland, I wonder if we can interject you into this discussion a little bit  You have been a policymaker  What can be done to make sure that Simon's vision doesn't come true, and something a little closer to what Esther and Mitch describe does happen?
HOMET: I think we probably need both doom seers and paradise seekers  We'll always have them, and we should have them  It's between the swing of those two views that things happen  I think that this notion of replacing the gatekeepers and letting everybody perform his own dance, to the amusement of those who chose to tune in, is one that many of us were promoting 20 years ago  That's not 1940 -- that's 1970 (laughter), and we were quite convinced that was likely to happen by the end of that decade  Now it's 12 years beyond the end of that decade, and we're nowhere near having that happening  We just have newly-named controversies, and so, as you heard me say in my little short remark, I think that our objective ought to be more modest, and that is to keep the questions open, not let them be foreclosed -- certainly not prematurely, and not on the basis of inadequate evidence  I would say something about the apocalyptic view, which is, I think there is a difference between information policy questions and welfare questions  The poor we have always with us, as somebody once said, and whether information, Cyberspace -- whatever you want to call it -- is promoted or not, that is true  It may become more glaringly true in an advanced information society, in which case, more may be done about it  So I wouldn't despair about that, and I wouldn't hold back on the development of instruments of interconnection simply because we can see that there is and will remain an underclass  Perhaps if we do the one, we'll be better equipped to do the other 
LIASSON: In just a minute or two, we're going to open this up to your questions, but I want to try to end maybe with a discussion of something quite specific, which is, Who should own the new infrastructure and information systems? Should they be publicly owned? There are lots of conflicts even within the vision that you lay out 
KAPOR: The first point I'd make is let's not make the unnecessary mistake of betting on a single infrastructure  Technologically, we don't need to do that  In the 1930s, pre-digital, the old Bell system was the social contract  You get a monopoly, you have an obligation to provide universal service  We've learned a few things about how to do things with interoperable standards and how to interconnect multiple, independent providers and carriers  One of the fathers of the Internet, Vint Cerf, is sitting here in the front row, and he deserves an enormous amount of credit for insisting on this vision and promulgating it  A lot of the risks that come with private ownership of infrastructure go away when it's no longer a monopoly  The abusive problems that are sometimes experienced with local phone service and cable companies -- both of which are private sector monopolies -- I would say come more from not their private sector character, but from their monopoly character  If it is possible for there to be competition, that serves as the most effective check that we know of in this society against abuse  So I would opt for private infrastructure, but lots of it  Government has to make sure that everybody stays interconnected -- it's the referee that keeps the playing field level, doesn't let people cheat, and sort of bangs a few heads together when people get a little too greedy, or a little too selfish  If we do that, that will provide for the most choice and the most diversity 
LIASSON: Are we all in agreement on that?
HOMET: Not entirely  I think the question is less who should own infrastructure than how it should be classified  There may be a role for government in, for example, extending communication pipes to rural America for at least a period, as with the TVA  We have always had that question  There has always been a mixed economy with government doing some things and private sector others  It's a debate and should be a debate about who does what best  It should be revised from time to time, but the important question is, If we get a significant distribution system like cable television, how should we classify it? I speak here from the heart, because 20 years ago, I was trying to fasten onto, or gain the recognition for, cable as a broadband distribution system which was only trivially in the program production and publishing business, but was very much in the distribution business and ought to have been treated as a common carrier open to all information suppliers  Had that happened, we would have been very much further along in the vision that some of us had 20 years ago  (applause) It tends to support what I said about not going in for premature freezing or characterization of how things look  It was decided, because the broadcasters felt threatened, to treat cable as a species of broadcasting  That's the greatest frittering away of resources in my lifetime, and perhaps in the lifetime of the United States of America  Let's not make that mistake again  Let's be clear-eyed and ask the broad-scale questions about public use and benefit  Thank you 
LIASSON: Let's open it up to the audience  If you have any questions     oh my God, wrestle your way to the microphone!
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Let us not forget the history of the commons in which a wealthy society creates in its overflowing abundance structures on which all people can participate  This was originally, back in medieval society, the structure that was created for the support of the poor  In the abundance of the land in which the overpopulation was not a question, and there was much agriculture to go around, and the poor were supported out of the commonly-owned things that were jointly owned by all society  That's all I have to say 
LIASSON: Who wants to start?
DAVIES: Sticking to my apocalyptic vision just for the moment, because that's how I'm characterized, what I would like to see, just as my own social experiment, if you like, is for the various groups that this room represents and groups that you are all involved in, is to actually set up the apocalyptic vision, and then see how you as part of the information technology community can utilize it, stop it, or reverse it  It's only when you see the vision and see your own part in it that we are actually going to set up solutions  I mean, that is a straight, outright homework assignment, and I think would be a great benefit for everybody  Then go on and publish them through the E-mail, or the Internet, whatever 
DYSON: Something along the lines of go find the most influential person you know well enough to influence, who you do not agree with -- assuming that you all agree with me, of course -- and attempt to win that person over to your point of view  In other words, don't stick to your own community  Don't just talk to the people who only agree with you  Go out and evangelize or proselytize to people who don't understand what this stuff is about  Do it in such a way that you are not superior or offputting; don't try to be right; try to win and expand this community, not in terms of pressure or rightness, but in terms of understanding what we are about  The biggest problem is ganging up on some of these politicians and having them think that this stuff is not cute, or weird, or colorful, or irrelevant, but incredibly important  Make the rest of the world know about us 
HOMET: I would like to second that motion  The story is told that when a beautiful woman comes out on a street in Paris, every man within eyeshot becomes in that instant much more intensively himself  (laughter) What I would suggest to you, if you are energized by this subject, is to be yourself  To thine own self be true, and perhaps to add to that the biblical admonition to the apostles -- if I remember it correctly -- and this picks up what Esther was saying -- to be wise as snakes, and cunning as foxes  Go out there to persuade 
P  DENNING: I'd like to add to that  It is not only within yourself that you have to look, it's within others  Don't assume that you know the answers, but go talk to people  Don't just talk to us, because we already know what "us" has to say, but go to talk to people that we haven't talked to and find out what concerns them 
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, my name is Lou Woleneck  I'm from the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas  I'm a graduate student  I have a question, a general policy question, about how we should go about providing the information resources to the have-nots that the information elites have access to now  What sort of strategy that you all would have for that?
KAPOR: A 30-second or less answer, which is to set a national policy that updates a universal service for the 21st century that says everybody needs to have basic minimal access to a digital platform that reaches into every home, into every office and school in the country  We should focus our attention on how to put in place the least expensive amount of infrastructure that will produce that  What we find is, if we do that, then the overwhelming majority of American families will find it already within their budget to be able to do that, because it will be priced like basic phone service  To the extent that we need to continue or even slightly expand the kinds of lifeline programs that subsidize today's basic voice telephone service for a small percentage of the population, we should be prepared to renew that commitment  We don't need to bankrupt ourselves to give everybody access to a digital platform 
JIM WARREN: My name is Jim Warren  Two quick observations: there were several cynical comments during the last several days about a number of IRS people being here  It turns out, because they never had a platform to say this, that the whole crowd from the IRS who are here, as I understand it, are from the IRS privacy project, intent on developing policies to assure privacy protection for taxpayer information  So let us not be so cynical about their being here; otherwise, remember that they are simply doing what they are told to do by our representatives  (laughter and hisses) I was also bothered by both Simon's, and (my God!) Esther's comments on those evil little men, and the men in politics, etc  Gee, this is a modern age, let's say "men and women," for evil deeds, as well as good deeds 
DYSON: There aren't enough women in politics for there to be any evil ones 
WARREN: Well, I am sure that I can find some evil ones for you  (laughter) Anyway, to the main points: I would say that we are not so much elite, in that we are open to anyone who takes the initiative to join us, and many of us are active mentors in trying to get others to join us  I would say simply that we are a minority, and it occurs to me that revolution has always been a minority activity  It was not millions of Russians who opposed the attempted coup several months ago  It was ten, twenty, or thirty thousand in Moscow, with the aid of communications  It was not a massive movement, a populist movement, in America that resisted the Crown, two centuries ago  It was a small minority of activists and we are the activists here -- we are the revolutionaries  Freedom has always been a do-it-yourself activity, but the key syllable in that word activity is act  Let us reaffirm freedom of speech, press, assembly, security against undue search and seizure -- the basic constitutional freedoms and privileges  Let us demand that our politicians and our political candidates do the same in explicit formal commitments to act in behalf of protecting electronic civil liberties, just as they validate and speak favorably for traditional civil liberties  We can write our politicians, write our candidates and say, "Take a position in favor of civil liberties, regardless of the technology of the moment " Thank you 
GLENN TENNEY: Thank you for the introduction, Jim 
LIASSON: Are you from the IRS?
TENNEY: No  (laughter) My name is Glenn Tenney, and I have a question for you, Mara  I think that I have enough supporters on the panel  I'm not too curious about their views, but they are welcome to them  You questioned if the presidential election and race is ready for Cyberspace  What about Congress? I'm running for Congress -- is it ready for me?
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Ms  Liasson, I believe that you have opened a can of worms called politics for this little hacker community  You certainly have with me in your comment about asking for comments for the Cyberspace era from presidential candidates  I have very strong reactions to that  I think that I am going to try to express them, as a pure statement, or maybe an actual story  Several years ago, I was discussing with a friend of mine the current presidential, the then-current presidential election  He was asking me why I wasn't rabidly supporting Jesse Jackson  I thought about it, and my first response was, "Well, let's talk about the other candidates for a second  What about -- and I'll take a random name -- Michael Dukakis?" And my friend looked at me and said, "Michael Dukakis, he's just an administrator, he's not a visionary " I thought about it, and I said, "Hold on, I'm an American, I'm not someone who's a slave of the Queen of England, or something like that  I'm my own visionary, I decide where I am going " I don't want the politicians walking around telling me that I am going to have an expressway system that's going to pave over all my favorite swamps to play in  I don't want the politicians walking around defining what I'm going to do in my life  I want to elect politicians to manage government for me, to provide the barest minimum necessities to keep us smoothly greased as individuals in living together, and I want those politicians to be of the people, and I don't want them to tell me what my opinions should be  Finally, I want to cap that off with when we have government deciding how our systems work for us, we can then end up with situations where we can say, "Oh yeah, that IRS guy or that government net guy, he was just doing his job when he banned cryptography," or something like that  That's not the sort of world that I want to live in  I want to live in a world, where each of us defines our little space in it  Thank you all 
LIASSON: I think we have time for just two more and then we'll have to wrap it up 
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, to the apocalypse types  I'd like to say just one thing that somebody said: The truth will make you free  In that this technology is a vehicle of communication, I believe that it is a vehicle of the truth, and as long as we keep it free, the truth will be heard that much more  Now I have kind of a question with a bit of a statement  I am a learning-disabled college student  I didn't ever finish high school  I had a freshmen education in high school, because of educational problems, and adjustment problems, I never really got too far beyond that  I write probably a fifth of the speed of anyone in this room and I have a real hard time doing math without a calculator  That's part of the reason why I wasn't able to do well in school  I read very well, fortunately, so I was able to go in when I was eighteen and take my GED just flat out without studying for it  I'm not dumb, or uneducated by any standards, but what has allowed me to get an associate's degree in college, and what has allowed me to approach graduation and get a bachelor's degree in college is the kind of technology that we are dealing with  I have never had easy access to that technology  The barriers that I have faced have been ones of order, regimentation, and where people try and say, "Oh well, you don't fit in, you're not a CS student, you don't need those resources " I'm good with computers, I do a lot with them, I spend a lot of time with them  I hack, I don't do anything illegal, but I took a hacksaw to the frame of my nasty little 8088 about two years ago to cram some RAM into it, because that was the only way I could get it to fit and I needed it  Now I'm in a little bit better shape  I'm approaching the point where I would like to see ISDN real soon, because I need that kind of connectivity  You know, I'm doing interesting things that I find absolutely wonderful, but the idea that the kind of technology that is available to us, that is just there for the using, could be limited and unavailable to people, or that people would have to go through some of the things that I have had to go through, not being able to do well on tests, because I had no word processor available to me  That type of thing, even though they are all over the place, elsewhere  It was just that that wasn't an acceptable solution  That type of policy planning, that type of government, that type of order scares me  And I have to ask, what is your answer to that?
DAVIES: The apocalyptic vision of a world in grief and individual rights in crisis has nothing to do with a Luddite mentality, and it would be very dangerous for the people in this room to link the two together  I, for one, believe in technology  I am very grateful for it, and I think the world is a better place for it  I have great faith in the future, but technology's not a silver lining for the future  It's not an El Dorado, it's more like plutonium  The very great thing that technology does for all of us can also be used by the people who would repress our freedoms and all I am saying is be aware of that  Let's not marginalize people like me, who are saying, Hey look, we are going to have 15 billion people on the planet  We are going to have a political inversion, you know, that is going to create massive tensions that are going to repress our rights, or at least create a tension that we have never known before  Don't marginalize me -- don't shoot the messenger  I believe in technology, so please don't equate the apocalypse with Ludditism -- the two do not match 
LIASSON: We're about out of time  I'm going to turn this over to Lance 
HOFFMAN: Thank you, Mara  I'm really unhappy that we are out of time, but I feel that we have a contract to those who want to leave in a moment or two  Those who want to stay, can stay up here, are welcome to continue, until the hotel throws us out  Since Lu Kleppinger is in the room at the moment, I don't know when that will be, but we can probably have it for a little while  I just want to make a couple of comments before I formally close this meeting 
We have seen an awful lot happen in these last three days and there has been building, and indeed we will be continuing to some extent the work that Jim Warren started at CFP-1 -- a sense of community  It has been increased by the participation of various diverse groups  My one hope is that you do not stop that here  When each and every one of you goes home, contact -- I don't care whether it's by letter, or electronic mail, or even telephone, if you must -- three people that you have met here that you didn't know, or didn't know very well before, or perhaps only knew electronically, and now you know them in person, and continue talking with them and to their friends and colleagues  If you do that, this will be a success 
The other comment that I want to make is that Bruce Koball is going to need a lot of help for CFP-3  Please talk to him -- he is listed in the roster  Or better yet, don't do that, talk to him here, and then give him a month to chill out in Berkeley before he has to start working real hard  Check the message board, there are some messages that have not been picked up  You have your evaluation forms  If you haven't filled them out and you would like to, please do and turn them in  I have nothing else, except to thank you all for being such a good group and, hopefully, we'll see you next year in California  Thank you very much 
Support efforts at engaging society and government on the appropriate legal and social uses of technology 
Context 3:  However, to load a jeep in it, a 30-ft long ramp was required  The jeep would drive in and insert its front wheels into the aircraft  Then it had to be manually lifted and turned to get it in  Unloading it was just as difficult  Para dropping of troops or cargo even from the aircraft with the enlarged door was considered too dangerous with the risk of hitting the tail plane  The aircraft's performance at hot and high airfields was hopelessly inadequate  Eventually IAF acquired the tail-loading An-32s which were powered specifically for IAF's need for operating in the Himalayas 
BRF article -Avro in IAF service
Now unless you want to overcome all these through a costly, time consuming engineering re-design program, that too without access to original documents since this airplane was designed in the 1960s, there is no question of keeping them going for another 40 years  By which time the original design would be over 80 years old and with no one on earth but the IAF as an operator and HAL as the agency supporting it  Hardly a situation anyone would want 
abhik wrote: +1, Air India recently sold their entire fleet of Boeing 777s 
Only 5 of the Boeing 777-200LR, to Etihad Airways, which IMO was a bad decision  they could have reconfigured the airplanes with just 2 classes and continued to fly them to the US, non-stop 
The remaining 3 777-200LR were offered for lease but are still a part of AI's fleet since they didn't find any takers  This particular model hardly sold much and was developed for ultra-long range flights  it was the least successful 777 model and clearly AI goofed up on the configuration by going for these in place of the 300ER  The economics however didn't make too much sense for AI eventually 
there are 13 777-300ER as a part of their fleet ahd their economics is much better 
Govt  to decide tomorrow on whether to go ahead and allow the IAF to verify the technical details of the C-295 bid by Tata-Airbus instead of scrapping the tender due to single vendor situation 
The government will decide on Saturday whether to press ahead with the Rs 13,000 crore mega project for the private sector to supply 56 medium transport aircraft to the IAF despite only a single bidder, the Tata-Airbus consortium, being in the fray 
Though the defence acquisitions council (DAC) chaired by Manohar Parrikar will take the final decision, MoD sources on Tuesday said the "emerging dominant view" is that green signal should be given to the crucial project designed to promote Indian private sector's entry into the domestic aerospace arena with foreign collaboration 
"The Tata-Airbus technical and commercial bid is a credible offer submitted in a competitive environment  The other seven contenders backed out for one reason or the other," said a source 
IAF has now sought the clearance of the DAC -- the first such meeting to be chaired by Parrikar after becoming defence minister on November 10 -- to begin technical evaluation of the C-295 aircraft offered by Airbus Defence & Space and Tata Advanced Systems 
Though it has become a single-vendor situation, the DAC can approve it if it wants as per existing procurement procedures  Of the eight foreign aviation majors that got the global tender, American Boeing and Lockheed-Martin as well as Brazilian Embraer said they did not manufacture the class of aircraft being sought by IAF 
Refusing to take part in the tender, Russian Rosoboronexport said it wanted a fresh design and development project  Antonov of Ukraine wanted yet another extension of the bid submission deadline due to the ongoing conflict in Crimea  Swedish Saab said it had shut down its assembly line for such aircraft 
Then, Alenia Aermacchi was linked to Italian conglomerate Finmeccanica, which has been slapped with "a partial ban" after the infamous VVIP helicopter scandal  "All this left only the European consortium Airbus  The DAC will have to take a call since re-tendering may lead to the same situation," said the source 
Incidentally, it was the Modi government's first DAC in July -- then headed by Arun Jaitley - which revived the Avro replacement project after it was put on hold by the UPA-2 regime last year due to strong opposition from the powerful PSU lobby and ministers like Praful Patel, as reported by TOI earlier 
Apart from the critical need to encourage the private sector to enter defence production in a big way, especially in the aerospace arena where Hindustan Aeronautics enjoys a monopoly, its felt the defence PSU's order books are already overflowing with projects 
Fingers crossed  Hopefully sense will prevail 
Why was lr got? Er is capable of Dubai to sfo nonstop 
Lr is overkill unless we want Delhi to Peru  
Singha wrote: Why was lr got? Er is capable of Dubai to sfo nonstop 
they wanted it for non-stop routes from India to the west coast of the US  But with fuel prices going higher and with the lower seat count on the 777-200LR, the seat mile costs grew too high  A 3 class configuration only made matters worse  A higher density configuration with more economy class seats and just 12-15 Business class seats would have been better perhaps, especially if they didn't have very high First Class load factors 
LR and ER is better if you want to have a better payload down below for long haul  Ultimately, the best bet is going to come form the 787's that take a fewer people (so you can do the longer routes) with still a competitive CASM, and the B and F class folks will pay good money for newer aircraft 
Postby Kartik » 04 Dec 2014 12:55
Lets see if there is any forward movement on the stalled MTA project once Putin arrives in New Delhi
Major defence deals to be signed during Putin-Modi summit
In this connection, it is expected that during the summit, Russia and India may ultimately resolve several long-delayed agreements on military-technical cooperation projects between the two countries and sign them finally for their implementation  These agreements, above all, include joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project and joint development of Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) 
A final deal on FGFA for production has been delayed because the Indian Air Force (IAF) did not approve the design and work-share  Now Russia has reportedly agreed that the jet would be a two-seat design, not a one-seater  India’s work-share would also be increased from18 percent to 25 percent, and even up to 40-50 percent in the near future, in view of the steady development of the Indian aviation industry 
Defence and SecurityAccording to the agreement, India’s stealth air-to-air missile “Astra” along with Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile will be mounted on the FGFA 
The preliminary design agreement on FGFA had been signed in 2010 between Indian HAL and Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau to build the jet for the use by both countries  The final design contract was to be signed in July-August 2012  But the deadline has already passed  According to the Indian media reports, under the programme, India is expected to build 200 fighter jets at the cost of $30 billion 
FGFA is not the only Indo-Russia joint project  The two countries also signed an agreement on the joint development of MTA in 2007, based on Il-214 Russian plane  The cost of the $600 million project is being equally shared by the two countries  The MTA, when developed, will have ready market for 205 aircraft - 45 for the Indian Air Force, 100 for the Russian Air Force, and 60 more for exporting to friendly countries  The international market for MTA is estimated at 390 planes  Under the agreement, thirty percent of the annual production of planes could be exported to third countries 
The MTA was expected to go in service with the Russian and Indian Air Forces in 2015  But the project faced a number of problems, delaying the development of the MTA  The project got into rough weather after India felt there was nothing much for Indian engineers and scientists to do in the design and development of the MTA 
However, all the issues related to the project were resolved with the Russians when the HAL undertook to carry out design and development of its work-share of MTA at Aircraft R&D Centre at Bangalore  Russian Ilyushin Design Bureau and the Irkut Corporation and HAL are participating in the project  The first flight is expected to take place in 2017-18 
The MTA would replace the AN- 32 aircraft being used by the IAF  It will be used for both cargo and troop transportation, para-drop and air drop of supplies, including low-altitude parachute extraction system 
BrahMos missile exports a challenging proposition
Another key deal expected to be signed during the summit, is for the development of “BrahMos mini missile” by the Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace which manufactures supersonic cruise missile  BrahMos’ new CEO Sudhir Mishra recently said he was hopeful that a deal to develop the mini version of the missile will be signed during Putin’s summit with Modi 
“We are hoping to sign a tripartite agreement between DRDO, NPOM lab and BrahMos Aerospace during the planned visit of Russian President in December,” Mishra said 
He said that the new missile will have a speed of 3 5 mach and carry a payload of 300 km up to a range of 290 km  In size, it will be about half of the present missile, which is around 10 metres long  The missile can be integrated with different platforms, including submarines and FGFA  It is planned to be inducted into service by 2017 
Modi-Abbott to upgrade defence ties
A new dimension:
In a first, India and Australia will also set up a mechanism to discuss “synergies in integrating defence system”, including research and development cooperation on integrating defence equipment that both countries currently purchase, for example, U S’s C-17 Globemaster III, according to officials 
^^That report about MTA is fishy  First it says that India has nothing to learn from an existing design (duh) and then says the issue has been resolved  How? Next it says India's need is 45 planes to replace over 100 An-32s  It also speculates about the export potential which may be nonexistent unless we sell it for peanuts 
This is a scam which only aims to create screwdriver jobs at HAL, stall any attempt to introduce private players into the aviation market and continue the Russian gravy train  My fear is the Russkies have our testiments in a firm grip with key components of Brahmos, nuke subs, Su30mki etc and we may be jerked around 
(They need to be more definitive about "MTA" - Multirole vs  Medium)
The Indians had not selected an engine (among other things) for the MTA with the Russians  Perhaps that has been resolved now 
On export numbers, IIRC, it was the responsibility of Rosoboronexport  ?????
Kartik wrote: The MTA would replace the AN- 32 aircraft being used by the IAF  It will be used for both cargo and troop transportation, para-drop and air drop of supplies, including low-altitude parachute extraction system 
Pardon my ignorance  The Avro and An-32 have different upgrade paths  How are the replacements for these venerable aircraft different in terms of use cases in IAF  Cannot one platform replace both these types? (Either MTA or C-295)
In this case, I feel they should have just gone with screwdrivergiri (production tech) and got to market first  There is no jet-powered transporter in this range! Just license produce the IL-214 with the PD-14M, glass cockpit and a state-of-the-art COTS avionics computer 
In my view, it was a low hanging fruit, which they completely messed up! They could have learnt on how to adopt the plane for the 160-200 seater 
indranilroy wrote: They could have learnt on how to adopt the plane for the 160-200 seater 
Yes, the MTA project should fold the Avro, An-32 and the regional transport role and become a conversion project rather a development one  The driving numbers will come from the regional transport (thousands in India itself) rather than the Avro or medium transport roles (max 300 between them)  This changes the ball game and introduces all kinds of possibilities  But I'm pretty sure that the Il-214/MTA is not the way to go because it will take a decade or more to arrive  A good possibility was another Antonov, the An-148 but it has some mechanical glitches apparently besides being bogged down in the Ukraine mess  Maybe the Russians can "relocate" the aircraft to Russia? The other possibility is the BAe-146 which is ironically another Avro  We should remember that both the HS-748 "Avro" and An-32 were regional airliners that were converted to military use, not the other way around  HAL or a private firm will pick up a lot of experience in the conversion process itself 
The Sukhoi Superjet is already in production/orders,with over 100+ for Russian and intl  customers



ground_truth: Peter Denning.

prompt_front: Now, answer the following question based on the text below, only give me the answer and do not output any other words.

Question: Besides the Boeing C-17, what other transport aircraft is the IAF considering for acquisition?

Read the following text and answer briefly.

Context 3:  It is ideal for regional transport,perfect for flights to smaller Tier-2/3 cities from metros  If we really want a regional jet this is the fastest way toi go,we can set up a manufacturing unti here for the same at an HAL unit 
Postby shaun » 05 Dec 2014 15:24
Its an international projects, with components outsourced from different international vendors   Over 30 foreign partnership companies are involved in the project and partly financed by Italy 
Sukhoi is good for passenger use but wont be suitable for military, rough field use  The shoulder wing jets like the An-148 have slower speeds and better ground clearance  The Bae-146 was usedby Druk Air in Bhutan so it should do OK in the ALGs  If we don't fold our requirements then we should go with something like the Superjet which we will at least be able to make in India and also modify to stretched versions  Unless we have a clear path to operational clearance within 10 yrs for the RTA project vetted by our top industrial houses, it is pie-in-the-sky and should be dropped  The RTA will be big enough to keep 2-3 factories humming and leapfrog our capabilities  If we don't get our act together almost immediately, we will miss the boat, just like our trainer fiascos 
I don't think Superjet fits into our scheme of things  We should think as a country and see to it that our programs don't trample on each other 
First, the more certain ones:
1  Mahindras NM5 and Airvans can care of the low-cost but sturdy 5,8,10 and 18-seater section 
2  Saras had such great potential for being the high performance 14-18 seater  But I have almost given up on it  This section will most probably be taken up by the Tata-built Do-228 NG 
3  We should standardize the C-295 as the Avro/An-32 replacement and create a 70-80 seater variant out of it 
And then the more wishful ones:
1  If the RTA is going to be a jet, then make it a 100-130 seater  I don't expect the first prototype to take the sky before 2025  I feel it is too big of a jump where we don't even have a base  With LCA, at least we were at least license producing other fighters 
4  Building on the IL-214, the MTA was on a more sure footing  But, I can't see how the first prototype can to take to the sky before 2019(more than 10 years since MTAL was formed)! If the transport plane materializes, then one can imagine making a civilian 150-200 seater version of the same  But this program needs a push  Will Putin's visit be able to galvanize this into the next symbol of Indo-Russian cooperation  Probably not!
Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Dec 2014 23:39
http://www ctvnews ca/canada/defence-de     -1 2144472
The Defence Department intends to purchase a Boeing C-17 Globemaster III, a large military transport plane that comes with a price tag of just under $200 million, CTV News has learned
It's difficult to get a good count, but by some sources, if this and the 4 Australia planes go through, there will only be 5 left 
X-Posting from FGFA thread 
Despite Putin’s visit, two pacts on military aircraft still in doldrums
President Vladimir Putin may have come and gone but stalemate largely persists over two key long-pending India-Russian defence projects, the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and military multirole transport aircraft (MTA) 
The deadlock over the MTA, which were initially envisaged to gradually replace IAF's ageing fleet of the medium-lift AN-32 aircraft, seems to be much more serious  India now wants to ascertain the cost viability of the twin-engine transport aircraft in comparison to similar planes available in the market 
There are also questions about the MTA's "predicted timelines for delivery" as well as its failure to meet the high-altitude requirements, which need to be answered before India even thinks of inking the full-scale contract for the project, said sources 
Postby Gyan » 13 Dec 2014 12:29
indranilroy wrote: I don't think Superjet fits into our scheme of things  We should think as a country and see to it that our programs don't trample on each other 
1  Mahindras NM5 and Airvans can care of the low-cost but sturdy 5,8,10 and 18-seater section  Righto
2  Saras had such great potential for being the high performance 14-18 seater  But I have almost given up on it  This section will most probably be taken up by the Tata-built Do-228 NG  We need future extended variants of presurrized aircraft like 30 seater Saras and say 30 seater unpressurized Do-328 NG 
3  We should standardize the C-295 as the Avro/An-32 replacement and create a Civilian turboprop pressurized cabin 70-80 seater variant out of it 
1  If the RTA is going to be a jet, then make it a 100-130 seater  Agreeeeeed I don't expect the first prototype to take the sky before 2025  I feel it is too big of a jump where we don't even have a base  With LCA, at least we were at least license producing other fighters  Though I think that we should participate in Russian MS-21 and also the wide body follow on 
4  Building on the IL-214, the MTA was on a more sure footing  But, I can't see how the first prototype can to take to the sky before 2019(more than 10 years since MTAL was formed)! If the transport plane materializes, then one can imagine making a civilian 150-200 seater version of the same  Though I think that we should participate in Russian MS-21 and also the wide body follow on  But this program needs a push  Will Putin's visit be able to galvanize this into the next symbol of Indo-Russian cooperation  Probably not!
Absence of any specifics on Sukhoi Superjet, MS-21, Wide body aircraft, Mi-38, MRTA, FGFA, even after Putin visit is very disappointing 
FlightGlobal- Boeing sitting on 8 unsold C-17s
By: Dan ParsonsWashington DCSource: Flightglobal com
This story is sourced from Flightglobal com 12 hours agoBoeing has sold two more C-17 transports to an undisclosed customer, but it will likely end the year with eight unsold white tails 
There are 10 Boeing C-17 airlifters in various stages of assembly at the company’s Long Beach, California, production facility 
Two of the aircraft are spoken for by an unnamed customer, Boeing says  Boeing is trying to sell off the other eight white tails, which will be the last produced before the factory is shuttered sometime in the summer of 2015 
The 279th – and final – C-17 fuselage will be mated to its wings in January or February, programme spokeswoman Tiffany Pitts tells Flightglobal  The operation is California’s last remaining aircraft production line and the lone widebody military aircraft production line in the USA, according to Boeing 
At least two countries – Australia and Canada – have publicly announced an intention to purchase a C-17, though neither factor into Boeing’s future planning, Pitts says  Until contracts are finalised, the number available remains eight, she says  The Royal Canadian Air Force already has four C-17As, according to Flightglobal’s World Air Forces 2014 directory 
Canadian news outlets reported earlier in December that the air force would buy one C-17 with money left over at the end of 2015 
Australia is further along with its bid to purchase C-17s  The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency in November announced Australia was approved to buy up to four C-17s and support equipment for $1 6 billion 
Boeing has plans to store any unsold C-17s following closure of its production line, Pitts says 
“I’m hoping they all will be sold before then, but we’ve had plans in place for a very long time to store and maintain the aircraft if that doesn’t happen,” she says 
the IAF will need to factor in the demand vs availability of C-17s and stock up with a follow-on order quickly  The initial plan to have 16 C-17s may not fructify, considering that there are just 8 left now, with Australia having announced plans to buy 4 more 
why are they closing the line if it has demands ???
Real estate sales tactics probably  Buy now last 8 3bhk flats Saar 
krishnan wrote: why are they closing the line if it has demands ???
It requires 3 years lead time to order raw materials/parts from all of its sub-vendors  All current firm orders have been fulfilled, and no new orders have come  Anticipating a need for a few more aircrafts, they produced 10 extra (self-funded) units before production winded down  Bottom line is they don't make money keeping an idle plant around with all its employees and infrastructure  At most what they will likely do is keep a limited infrastructure around for a few more years in case a bunch of new orders come  They can then see if it makes business sense to re-open the plant 
Postby Aditya_V » 17 Dec 2014 12:19
Wish this can be brought to the notice of Journos/ Poster when slamming LCA/ Arjun and other indigenous projects  If there are no orders there will be no efficiency 
Dec 10, 2014 :: Russia launches Il-76MDM upgrade programme
Russia's Ilyushin has started to upgrade a first Russian Air Force (VVS) Ilyushin Il-76MD 'Candid' military transport aircraft to Il-76MDM standard, company officials have told IHS Jane's   The main features of the upgrade include refurbished engines and upgraded avionics 
The modernisation is being conducted at the VVS's Military Transport Aviation (MTA) maintenance facility based at the Ilyushin division in Zhukovsky city near Moscow 
A senior Ilyushin official told IHS Jane's that the upgrade of the first aircraft will be finished in 18 months  Subsequent aircraft will take less time to complete the process, however  When the modernisation is finished the initial Il-76MDM will undergo state trials  The upgrade process for subsequent aircraft will begin when the trials programme is completed 
IHS Jane's was previously told by a VVS senior official that the modernisation of 41 MTA Il-76MDs is planned by 2020  While the Il-76MDM upgrade retains the old D-30KP engine (compared with the PS-90A engine equipping the new Il-76MD-90A/Il-476), the modernisation effort should match the aircraft's onboard electronics with those of the newbuild Il-76MD-90A  This and other efforts mean the cost of modernising the Il-76MD to Il-76MDM is only a third of that of a newbuild Il-76MD-90A 
The existing D-30KP engines are to be enhanced to increase their service life  The overall aircraft's service life will be extended by 15 years 
The upgrade works are planned to be conducted in an aviation repair factory or in the MTA's aircraft maintenance facility  As a result, the Ulyanovsk-based Aviastar-SP plant, which is building the Il-76MD-90A, is not involved in the Il-76MD to Il-76MDM modernisation programme 
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ground_truth: The IAF is considering the acquisition of the Airbus A330 MRTT (Multi-Role Tanker Transport) besides the Boeing C-17.