[PAGE 1]
SUBJECT: Conversation with 13 September 1951 in

1.tated he felt the problems were so complex that a time schedule was out ol the question at the present time.

2. pointed out the need for initiating some research of our own to keep the"cooperation of the people who were serious enough about it to. be actually maintaining projects.

3.The immediate use of the ope meetinc symposia was .considered as a means of obtaining, a concensus of qualified opinion which would also suggest specific projects.

On the problem of the potentialities of hypnosis it was afreed that ould talk to acoto obtain the names of qualified psycnologists who might be abie to ciscuss the question. As a result of their interest in .hypnpsis.

5. It wns agreed thaeight be a person for

the use of controlled and reproduceable conditions.

tated he knew at the In view of the project and the project to be initiated a ould consider

C 8. Both gentlemen reiterated the fact thattaas Creatly interested in both hypnosis and interrogation and looked forvard to having.many specific project suggestions.

9. Bwas interested to hear of but raised uestion as to whether or not he could make the pharmacolorical survey fron the point of view of being vell enough kmowm in America to be accepted as a professional colleague.

10 ad no suggestions relative to the research project chart which ras to undertakte.

A/B, 5, 59/1

18 September 1951

LEORANDUI TO THE FILE

[PAGE 2]
H-B/6 11.A was nentioned as an experinenter interostod in mescaline. He was thought to have certain traits which might limit his uscfulnoss.

C 12. elt in the physiological and psychological lines of activity we could narrow the problen to five major problems:

a. A thorough study of.interview techniques and methods. '

b. The boundaries of hypnotic phenomena. (See L. above).

c. Evaluation of deception detecting devices. (See 7. above).

B/ The author raluation of basic physiological studies relating to the prodect leared. e, author of, is on leave hut C f-telt an evaluation of his work would be Valuable.) B/6 author ofgn might be too individualistie.)

B/3 off, using the knowledge developed in the last five years about the, function d the reor oe of theadrenal corte Valuable sunpletentary material is in the

13. rwas glad to hear he could now telk tor stated that Pexperience in interrogation in vas certain to yield valuable materia.

ll. acane away with the impression that the breadth of the problen will make it necessary for full. time personnel on the problen to take an active part in outlining thd actual scientific problem to be investigated. Thisbecame office will probably represent many uncontrolled conditions. The basic research to establish foreign capabilities will have to be based on controlled conditions which have to be chosen from the great variety of.specific situations which are actually encountered in practice.

2

[PAGE 3]
MEORANDUM TO THE FILE

SUBJECT:

nvergation with 13 September 1951, in

C 1. greed that setting up a progran of investigation in the psvchiatric and psychologic aspects of the problem was of first importance. asked if a time schedule.should be developed for setting up such.a program. raid that could not be done that afternoon wite

A 2.forme .hat at the meeting of 1 Auust the panel felt two or three hirhly skilled persons should be hired on a temporary but full-time basis to collect all the significant information relating to the major aspects of the problem. These were thought to be three:

hypnosis

physiology

i use of drugs in psychological treatment

ated the need for immediaie short-term problems as these experts could not be readily hired and would not produce project outlines until their reports, were in, which would mean about six months delay.

A/B,5, 59/2

18 September 1951

[PAGE 4]
ch: /urust 191

HNORADU. FOR FILE

SUnJiDT:Convoraetior. wiih

1. I talked to catorday on the phone. On 16 Awust. he sov hie romulte wore. slrost, uholly perative.lio vill discnes the mattor furthor viih us in person but feols that tcre is nothing of nositive walne whieh would justify e formel written report, of his visit.

A/B, 5, 59/3

[PAGE 5]
SÜBJECT: visit to Feshington C

isited Hashington on 7 /ugust 1951 and dincussed the following motiers with thc persons inlicrted:

A  and e

1. lc dnliverori a copy of the statement doveloped by the Penel afior its mecting itr fon l hugust. 4

2. lle further dliscussed the-peints listed, thorein:

2 a of Gencrl Notes -.A reviow ndl eveluation of interiorrtion methods. will conuct the survey evaluating; plarcnent, ciinicel, police, olc., intervicvs. He in serching to find the person who con cssist hin on a part time bosis, or tomporery full-(Seo memo to er e cated 0 August 1951)

2 of Technicel Arons is neu engugod in some vork with the polygrph ihic will probauly have valuable by-prolucts for Bluelird.

3 of Technical Areos - Hypnosis - The Fanol felt that infornation obtained uuxler hypnosis nay te largely the indlividuals phenteries and dro:ns. Uaiil  thorough starly of hypnonis has been mare, the panel will dcfer any statement es to its rolc in this project.

3 of Plan of Atteck - The reason for the deforrmcul. of an evaluetion of intcllironcc rcports aboutctivity is that evaluation is impessihle until wo have n firm matrix of scientificslly astoblished frcts sgainst which they cen be compared for credibility, etc.

3. einomnel hat rl a briefinc d A made a strtenont that thoeeere not bchind in pschirtry. ir urs when: eppropriste,

h. st ted that uhile he realized nuco-hpnosis vill take a tohg tinc io thorourhly invcstigrte, he vishod the panel to keop n. tontinuinginterest in this phase of Tluobird.

a. lle desircd to follow up sc's interest; and

.b. The chief Bluebird field operetions hove boen closely allied to it. 2

A1B,5, 59/4

8 August 1951

HLHORAHDUR FOR FILE

[PAGE 6]
5. t ted the panel nbicipated ite renarel Cinncial requlreront to le slout ,000 in the noxt fev nonths.

6. An crrangement cinilar, to that for thesroject vas disrnased. Possible use of theeprojoct is to be considerod uher appropriate. If decling with à now controctor a larger mumber of projecta should te prced upon than would le specificrlly ontlined in the beginnng. Tiis expedites the placing of project contrects later.

7. sk to remind the panol to keep in mint the need for dovelopment of ticfensive mcthods. llc told him of the agencics avareness of existing dangers end the indoctrinstion of oversoes employees relative to acceptance of medical cere.

This nan's spccialty hás beon scrvo-mechanisus, hut he has stäted that ho knew of en ccperiment uhich would prove the possibility of long tern corlitioning; of subjccts.

9. list of bookswbich choulì be purchased purchese. for the use of the nonel in approved this A

10. The chart relstive to situaticns and hat hes nroven effective
(Sec mimtns of mectinr, July 23rd, Itom D-2). Tho Penel dosires thrs rs
moans of focusing itk aiicatiou on the most important crors. ses
issenlim meno tri ie.referring to the quostions st tod toy Tuill answér ty /upust 2cth ant sumlcmentery in.er 1. tc roquesied rclrtive to effcctivonoss of mcthois fron Iefore shouine to the Fanel the chart vill be referred to ang

11. inseribed briefly the segrcgetion of referonces to Lluclin! in ger other areas. The reforences vili then te further correlated cx) Intelligence projecte developed. this vns a useful conlcmentory activity. acreaì