[PAGE 1]
A1B5,240/4 Office MenOranduUm • UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

TO
Via A
FROM

DATE: 28 February 1952

SUBJECT:AESRE ppinterview with.

1. On Tuesday, 26 February l952, the writer had an extended interview with fat?his office in the The interview, exclusive of some research in and examination ors s library and files, lasted frcm approximately l0:30 to 5:00 PM. The interview was laid on through the Contact Eranch but introductions as in thete interview were regarded as unnecessary. No difficulties were encountered in this matter.

tie is a well-know toxicologist

is extremely active, moves and talks rapidly, appears highly intelligent, and throughout the long, interview was courteous, amiable, and extremely co-operative. After estahlishing in ths writer's mind thataseietarrteserrwas competent and thoroughiy understocd the meaning of secrecy, the writer opened up and discussed positive matters. Set out below. are a series of questions ani answers which cover, in sub-Stance, the. details of the interview withgeaperrs

Concerning the general problen of the so-called "truth seruns", what are your views as-to our using these techniques?

A: I consider that we are at war at the present time and we must assume that the other side is using drugs, ccercion, torture, hypnosis, and all other related elements for their purposes. I think we should bo willing, to take chances to gain our ends. I do not believe it. would l? too damaging if they found we were using drugs or other methods cf gaining information. Certainly, the Soviets

[PAGE 2]
believe that we will try the same melhods they are using and, if we don't, we would be foolisn. i think it essontial that your Agency be prepared to ise these methods. I think you should support long-range experimontation and you certainly should he prenarei to attack prorlems with the best possirle information and techniques that ycu have at hand immediately.

: Do you have an interest in the :idzenty case or related ones and do you have any idees as to how these things • are produced?

À: Yes. If you will note in my paper (paper is attached), I have-given considerable thcught to the Soviet triais. While I do not telieve anyone knows specifically how these things are brought about, I think they are brcught atout possihly by torture, duress, drugs, hypnosis, and cther related methods such as exhaustion, fatique, and dietary deficiencies. In addition, as you krcs, the Soviets do not hesitate to take a long time to condition their subjects. Frobably you will never have to resort to this. As I see it, your main interest would be in obtaining information from unwilling people and, if possible, preventing your people from giving information if taken by the other side.

You have werked with the so-called "truth serums" -- will you comment on them?

A: "lrith serums" are not seruns in any sense of the word. They are drugs or chemicais and they do not always produce the truth. I believe your Agency should use this methed to get information. Parring the Chicago-type third-degree, which I knox you won't use, there is no way of extracting infcrmation successfully from a recalcitrant and stut:born witness. There may be other methods but I do not know of an results along these lines such as sound, slock, etc.

[PAGE 3]
2: What drugs or chemicals do you feel should bo tried?

A: I, personally, have done almost ail of my work wilh acorolamine as you will nota frou ay paper, although I do have some knowledre of tho barhiturate drugs. However, if I were attacking a given case at the pre-.. sent tire and if a good anesthetist were available, i would try the hartiturate drugs, amytal or pentothal, in preference to sccpolamine. I think they would be more effective. I have read Dr. James il. HATTHFWS' paper and he had amazing results. His results were hetter than mine since he claims l00. .I am cubious of such high results with recalcitrant subjects. I do not know of any "wonder" drugs or "new" drugs and it is my belief that you sheuld stick to something that you know is at least partially successful befere trying experimental methods that may not work.

: khat technique have you used to obtain information?

A I arain refer you to my paper. Às I mentiened above, 1 used scopolamine in almost all my cases which nurbered about forty, and I wouid say the work was about 503 successful. I, personally, injected the.scopoiauine after making it ryself. I did not useatui but made an individual subcutanequs injectior each time. (See details in attached paper and lator statenents.)

2: Have you ever used hypnosis in connection with drugs?

A: I. know nothing ahout hypnosis personally and have never used it. In some of my early experinents with srrirs l have watched him try it but he did not have any luck. At that, time-ssia r. knew nothing about hypnosis. I've heard of it teing used and I think it has merit, I believe that a person under hypnotic control would give much more accurate information than a person under the inflvence of a drug. Certainly it should he tested and tried anxi used if found to be successful.

Q: Have you ever used electroshock or any other sinilar type instrwnent along these lines?

B6

[PAGE 5]
0 A0

Q: Do you ever use the polygraph in your work? Do you have any special information relative this device or similar devices or any new dovices along polygraph lines?

A: No, I do not, work with the Polygraph with this instrument. 1s very valuable if properly handled. I do not know of any new polygraph devices or any new attachments. I have heard that some work is beinn done alona lines of this. kind at

Q: Would you name some individuais who might be helpful in our work?

B/6

A: I believe you should consulttao He ia • close friend of mine and if he could not civegou direct information, he would kmnow individuals who have done work along your lines. le is reliable.

I think you should attempt to procure the services 0 From what I know about hin, he is a young H.D. and extremely interegted in your type of work. He should be valuable. I believe he is in the but I do not know where.

with the organization is familiar withT " work. You should see him and you can get full details and quite possibly tape recordings ot work fro

B/6

I believe you should see
In my opinion, he is one of the. top psychiatrists in the United States.

and has a very large nrivate practice. lle will not handle a case unless he is interested. He would know ahout all tyoes of drugs, probably hypnotism, and certainly would know about electroshock or if he didn't, he would know the best man for youi to sec. lle does know about drugs and criminal work and I aa certain that if he knew of your interest he would very gladly co-operate with you.

B/6

[PAGE 6]
You should see and he is\_ tueve
at present. I believe he is retired fron jie has a good background
of this work and i have worked witi him in those mat
ters. I am sure he would be very co-operative. You should ohtain fron
This thesis was written by and should have some interesting iniormation for you. (Already requested by this office.)

Tou should contac He and is an outstanding anesthetist. te wculd he very co-operative and he would speak with a great deal of authority.

There is ats s yhose first nane I forgot, whom I beliove to be ard he, alsng with apsrer is considered one of the best anstistists in the United States. He is an intelligent man and I am certain he would co-operate.

You should seo In mr opinion, he is one of the outstanding neurologists in the United States.
He has private offices
snd is generally there. You shouid talk with hin about electroshock and drug usages. Es e,'I am sure, would co-operate ff\_he unlerstood your problem.

Q: Do you know ten

A: I know the name only, he is ata fand we have no close working relationship withaers

Q: Do you koon

A: Hlo. I have heard of him only.

-6.

[PAGE 7]
Would you care to give me any additional information on your use of scopolamine?

I will reler you to my paper (altached). As I mentioned, I helieve I was 50o successful on verifiable inlormation. In using scopolamine, you must never.frame a question so that the answer suggests itself. Recauss of an individual's reaction under scopolamine, he is very liahle to repeat a qugstion if the question suggests the answer. Scopolamine

•. .J know shortens the memory for recent events. When your subject is under scopolamine and reaches the point of "picking things out of the air" or "dusting imaglnary specks off his clothing" or "hrushing imaginary hugs off himself", you havs reached, in general, the proper point of questioning. In addition, at this point, I have found that the subject's mind will become blank as far as memory is concerned of the questions asked when the effects of the drig wear off.

After a considcrable number of exverimental uses of scopolamine, I cameto the decision that best results came when I started injecting 1/l00 of a grain andi then followed it at intervals ol about twenty minutes by l/200 of a grain. I closely follow th pulse and watch the flushed condition of the individual's face at all times. I personally injected the scopolamine each time.

Another hint, you should always have an individual on whom you are going to use scopolamine or any other drug empty his bladder before the tests. Cerbainly this is true in scopolamine. Keep your questions short and frame your questions so tiat they will require short answers. Long questions that will require long answers may produce ranhling. As a matter of fact, if a long answer is roquired, an individual under scopolamine will often forget what he was talking about in the first place and the answer will be useless.

Here are four itoms that i think yo. should always know when using, scopolamine or prohahly other drugs:

1) Your subject should be in good physical condition, if possible.

[PAGE 8]
2) You should always uce small dosages at all times -- take your time, tuolgh it may take hours. Tne results may be bettor.

3) Farticulariy for sconolaaine, you should use fresh solutions only. The powdler, scopolamine hydro-tromide should not te mixed in advance with the water ano I relieve that when you obtain this powder, you shouid make certain that it is frash and never use it if it has been made up for 2l hours. I always wrote torst. and roquested fresì powder fron them and I always made up my solutions inmediately before using them.

L) You should watch the individual's blood pressure carsfully. I would not, under any circumstances, Rive scopclamine  any individual having high-blood pressure anless it did not matter..

Q: From your point of view and understanding cu problen as you now do, do you care to coment on thè crotlem of research in general?

À: I think your Agency should support carefully controlled, long-range research in drugs, chericals, etc. I think long-range research, properly coniucted, is esrential and it shouid cover all possitlo fielcs including chemicals, electronics, sound, etc. Particulerly, I thirk your lonf-range research should very carofully restudy tho older and well-kncen drugs such as the barbiturates. qaite often researchers overlock vital information in a sesrch for some'thing "nen". Br-products of old and known chemicals wilk,quite often be what we are looking for. I do not feel that there is a good chanes of turning up a "wonder" drug, but every effort should be made to find new and advancedi methods.

As far as short-range work or imancdiate problems are concerned, as I have mentioned to you tefore, you should attack xith the methods yoi can use best. I wouldi use the rarbiturate drugs themselves at the present time. There may be others that, are useful, but I have not. heard of them. It wouid he criminaì to wreck a case trying an experiment, narticylarl--if the inforration was vital.

0

8

[PAGE 9]
Q: Concerning this discussion generally, have you eny suggestions to make?

H-B/6

1: I helieve if vour hudget would allow it, a trip to would be valuable and I believe I would start on this trip by a discussion with In this connection, I would like to mention the name o As an intelligent man and I don't. want to soy anything against him, but I don't helieve it would be profitarle or advisable .for you to interview him. Ny reasons are based on what I know of the man personally.

died a mimter published
works and although of general interest,
contained nothing of great value from
our point of view. Exactly why reconmends againstr
is unknown to the writer, but it is te
liexed that.. in the opinion of is given to consid
erable exaggeration and night not be
adverse to publicity.

b.The writer did not anproach the suhject of consultant services to tundoubtedly, vould serve if roquested, but,based on statements made in the intervievi is at present extremely busy. The question of whethe would he valuatle for training any of our pcople would appear to be answered in the negative, since he has worked mainly with scopolanine and his information has been, in the opinion of the writer, protty well covered.

[PAGE 10]
5. As mentioned above, thrcurhout the long interview ,. srte: was extremely co-operative and shozed a grcal interesit in the matters under discussien. He gave a number of documonts to the writer which will be photostated and incorporated in our files. lie permitted the writer to exemine his entire lirrary and personal files regardirg this subject, and appeared to be at all times very frank and honest in his manner. The writer concluded the interviow ty acain discussing the plepent of secrecy in the work anú is of the opinion that k p čan be totally trusted.