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Conference "Artichoke", 30 Novenber 1951

1. On 30 November 195l, conferencs relative "Artichoke was beld in the office of .Presant, in adiition t were L&SO and the writer. acting as co-ordinator for the "Artichoke" work presented the agenda. Details follow in substance.

2. First, the discusgion concerned the Project of the. "side-tone delay". statod that OSI's point of view was one in which they would like to have Agency support for the Froject since it would be a great help for them in their liaison work with the stated that thevery strongly wanted the project continued, but they did not have money to continue. They felt that the "side-tone delay" project was one in which this Agency could well invest the necessary \$35,000.

A 3. Cstatod that he did not. relieve the projsct was worth
AA the,, that hould tupor the projtt  would holp h cheeper if the Agercy had had its own laboratory. stated that he did not think this would be worth \$35,000 and doubted if it would be of any use to "Artichoke", but stated that he would support the pro-A ject particularly if it would help OSI's:liaison work. stated that he felt that all things considered, it was worthwhlle to support the project. le..It was, therefore, agreed that this conferencs would support the
D Project,tut that hafore the actual contract was written, certain guarantoes would have to te made protecting qur,intorests in the matter althovgh tho project would be run by the since the Agoncy's
A. intarest was not to be diaclosed. In this connection, lt das agreedthat Eother and work on the project when it reached the contrsct stage to make sure our interosts wera protected and any special' itons coverod.

5. stated that thes work at on drugs and their use in clinical work at was due and hie expected to reccive it in the immediate future. He stated that theer has informed the: and4 that they will covor the field of drugs and allinterested Agencies will get reports in this connection. Comstated that Chad told him thle and he felt that rull reports along these lines would be forth coming.

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and rxpressed aome doubts as to whother or not wo would receive any reports since no reports along these lines had boen received to date.

6. stated that report 14 M Project) had heen pronised hin for the following
Wedneaday (5 December). At this pointar.   stated that he wanted
to impress upon all those present the extrene cost of good rescarch at the
present time. He stated that a good technical research project cost at
the rate of 20,000 a year for every one and one-half professionally-equiped
researchers. Hence, he felt that the 35,000 set out ahov9 for the Project was probably not exçessiv.

7. then asked Ca as whether any research 'had been conducted or any attempta had been made to find out if work was being done on ultra-sonics. He stated that he had read some papers recently on sonic tcaming and ultra-sonic beaming which indicated unusunl results. stated that he would mako all necessary inquiries in this connection.

8. The discussion at this point was turned to detection of deception devices, particularly the "squezler" device and its possihle uss and stated he would make notas on this matter and see if he could find out any information.

9. moun stated that he had recently heen in personal touch with of and stated that who is doing most of his work at is being paid apparently through the and to date his work has teen a straight project and unclasçified and some of his discoveries have been significant along "Artichoke" linos. has done work particularly in the'lysergic acid groups and he feels that this information would be of extreme.value to this Agency. stated that he was setting up the necessary liaison to obtain from full details of this work. Patated that the L of thewas a friend of his and if necossary, he could talk to hin on a very personal basis. A referred to above, is of the and an outstanding authority on anesthesiology and drugs in the United States.

10. stated that the information that. he was obtaining; fron the Chemical Warfare Franch of the Arny was being obtained from and this was proving highly successful.

A 1l stated that he had boen in contact with ri
CB h, a fully cleared Agency consultant, and was considering plans for using new techniques of interest to the Agency which could be applied in the He

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was also studying how men could be trained for Agency use within the ramifications of the
felt that a possible use could he made ofz  for the training of men in the use of drugs.

AC 12. stated that of the B and a specialist in electric shock was present in the tuilding and he agreed to arrange a short meeting after this conference for those who wished to talk to relative possitle use of slectric shock or similar devices in connection with "Artichoke" work.

13. At this point in the conference, the idea of setting up a laboratory for certain work in the Agency was discussed. A suggested that they contemplateda lahoratory involving about four rooms and using six men who would te professional researchors. stated A that he had discussed. this natter infommally withe A stated, at this point, that whereas he thought the idea was protably sound, he felt a groat many of the dotails should be discussed before consideration te givèn the project. lie stated that he recently had been atle to interest the liedical lepartmont of the Agency in the "Artichoko" work and he felt that if a laboratory was to be get up, the Medical Department should understand the type of work done there. A stated the position that the use of Agency psrsonnel in drug experimentation of any type would have to he considered with a great deal of caution and many ohjections would have to te overcome hefore this could he done. also stated that heretofore the Medical Department of the Ageney had not shoun any intereat In Agency work along the "Artichoke" lines or other related lines but they hav? recently come around to a position of real support for this type of work.stated that, in his opinion, the laboratory should be a much broader type of laboratory and not purely a medical laboratory.

1h. At this point, the question of whether- who was formerly in Assessment (now GIR),would do as a co-ordinator in the "Artichoke" type of work.Ee stated that he would definitely disapprove of  connection with this type of work and did not think was suitable for it.

stated that had heen very highly recoanonded as an outstanding phychiatrist in the country, tut that had been inforned that it would he impossihle to obtain the services of since he was extramely busy.

16. again brought uo the sut ject of the "Vial" and stated that therpeopls were completing their tests on the in-3trument and final results. should be known in about two weeks. stated that the information now coming froa. indicated that the instrument was of vastly more interest than originally thought and

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it was essentisl that every single iten in connection with this would 8A who made, the orisinal findings was still available. thee fuple send ine . thir ttoy ir thetticologist rinfored that his organization would make every effort to obtain the other instrument, run down the Cernan toxicologist, and find out complete details on the tuo agents in question slnce it now appears A thstate that h t certain hothr or not the t apents had heen run ou the polygraph and he would find this out. and would set in motion the necessary orders for this to he dons.

17. The conference concluded at approximately 3:15 PH.