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Imnedlately after the conference on Friday30 November 1951, succeeded in finding ia Fand , and the writer discussed electric-snock devices and cartain related mattera fron about 3:30 to 4:45 with

2. is reported to he an authority on electric shock.lle is a professor at the Nedical Fchool of the Pand, in addition, is a phychiatrist of considorable note. Prois, in addition, a fully cloared Agency consultant.

3. explained that he felt that electric shock might he of"considerable interest to the "Artichoke" type of work. He stated that the standard electric-shock machine (Reiter) could te used in two ways. One setting of this machine produced the normal alectric-shock treatment (including convulsion) with ammesia after a number of treatments. le stated that using this machine as an electro-shock device with thc convulsive treatment, he felt that he could guarantee amnesia for certain periods of time and particularly he could guarantee amnesia for any knowledge of uss of the convulsive shock.

4. rstated that the other or lower setting of the machine produced a different type of shock. He said he could not explain it, but knew that when this lower current. type of shock was applled without convulsion, it had the effect of making a man talk. He said, however, that the use of this type of shock was prohibited because it produced in the individual excruciating pain and ho stated that there would be no question in his mipd that the individual would te quite willing to give information if threatened with the use of this nachine. lle stated that this was a third-degree methed but, undouttodly, would re effectiv?.

istated that he had never had the device applied to himself, but hed talke? with people who had been ahocked in this manner and statod that they complnined that their whole head was on fire and it was much too painful a treatment for any medical practice. lle stated that the only way it was ever used was in conncction with sedatives and even then its use was extremely painful. The writer askeda

whether or not in the "groggy" condition following tha convulglon by the electric-shock machine anyone had attompted to obtain hypnotice control over the patient, since it occurred to the writer that it would be a good time to attampt to obtain hypnotic control. stated thot, to his knowledge, it had never boen dons, but he could make

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this attempt in the near future at the ai.. and he would see vhether or not this could te done.

5. and as well as all others present, discussed the uge of electro shock at considarable length and it was opinion that an individual could gradually be reduced through the uss of electro-shock trentment to the vegotable level. He stated that., whereis amnosia could he guaranteed relative the actual use of the shock and the tine element surrounding it, he said it would obtain imperfoct amnesia for periods further back. He stated several instances in which people who had been glven the electro-shock treatment remembered some details of certain things and conplate blanks in other ways.

6. gaid that , who is practicing 1m. has perfected a hattery-driven shock machine which, according to ,is portnhla. said that the standard electro-shock nachine is a very cornon maching in medical offices. and in the major cities there must be several hundred of them in uge at all times.

7. stated also that there would be no way of detecting that an individual had teen given electro-shock treatments except through the use of the electro-encephalograph and then only if the individual who had been given the electro-shock treatment were placed on the oncephalograph within two weeks after ths shock had teen given. He stoted that a definite pattern (siniler to the epileptic-sncephalograph r) shoved on the encephalograph after th: shock treatments, but this pattorn diminiahed in tims and disappeared in about two weeks.

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