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FROM一

DATE: 3 Decemter 1951

sUBjECT: Conference "Artichoke", 30 November l951

A/8, 2, 1.

1. On 30 November l951, conference relative "Artichoke"was held in the.office of present, in addition to A. gacting as co-ordinator for the "Artichoke" work presented the agenda.Details follow in sutstance.

2. First, the discussion concerned the  uof the 2"side-tone delay" stated thate point of view was one in which they would like to have Agency support for thefa Frsince it would be a great help for them in their liaison work wvith themas stated that the very strongly wanted the project continued, but they did not have money to contime. They [elt that the "side-tone delay" project was cne in which this Agency could well invest the necessary 335,000.

3. fstated that he did not believe the project was worth the \$35,00o, butéwould support the project if it. would help arstated that he felt. that. this project could have been done much cheeper if the Agency had had its own laboratorystated that he did not think this would be worth 335,000 and doubtod if it would be of any use to "Artichcke", but stated that he would support the\_pro-A Ject particularly il it would helpaliaison work. stated that he felt, that all thines considered, it was wortliahile to support the project.

u. It pas, therefore, agreed that this conference would support the
B. tain guarantees would have to te made protecting our interesto in the matter although the project would be run by theAsince the Agency's
A and any other parties interested would get to- interest was not to be disclosed. In this connection, it was agreed that gether and work on the project. when it reacied the contract. stage to make sure our interests were protected and any special items covcred.

5. stated that the  ork eon drugs and their use in clinical work at aswas dun and ne expeclad to recelve it in the immediate futuro.He stated that. thrsxrins inforned theeeSwthat they will covor the fieli ot drurs and all, interasted Agenciea will get reports in this connection. Tna stated that had told hin this and ne felt that full reports along these lines would be forth coming.nre

TO : File

. Office MenJrandunn• UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

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A and rroxpressed song douht: as to whether or not we would roceive any reports sinco no reports along these lines had boen receivol to dato.

stated thatar had been pronised him for the following
Nednesday (5 December).At thia point, Fstated that he wanted
to impress upon all those present the extreme cost of good research at the
present- tine. He stated that. a good technical. research project cost at
the rate of \$20,000 a year for every one and one-half professionally-equiped
researcher3. Hence, he felt that, the S35,000 get out abov? for the was probably not exceaaive.
AA sear work was being done on ultra-sonics. He stated that he had road some papers recently on sonic beaning and ultra-sonic beaning which indicated
A unusual results.ssmsstated that he would make all necegsary inquiries in this connection.

8. The discuasion at this point was turned to datection of doception devices, particularly the "squenler" device and its possible uso and/ estated he would make notes on this matter and soe if he could find out any information.

9. systated that he had recently been in personnl touch withcis c and stated thatrajtwho is doing most of his work at is being pnid apparently through thetazga and to dats his work has been a streighteproject and unclassified and some of his discoveries have been significant along "Artichoke" linns.
has done work particularly in the lysergic acid groups and he foels that this inforation would be of extrene value to this Agency.
m statod -that he was setting up the necessary liaison to obtain
frone full dotails of this work. eoetod that the
rrof the Aetwag a friend of his and if necossary, he could faik to him on a very personal basis, Per r reforred to above, 13
National"Research Council and an outstanding authority on anosthosioloEy and drugs in the United States.

10. esrsstated that the information that. he was ohtaining Trun the Cccit eeesara3beinEobtalnod fromaruLand this was proving highly successful.

11. Aeareotated thal he had boon in contact, wilpa ceq asera fullyclcared Agnncy connllant, vas considoring plans for using nes techuittes ol intoreat to the Agency which cculd be applied in the A "Ho

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was also studying htw men coulc bo trainod fer Agoncy use within the ranificatlons of therre According los,he felt that a possible use could he made ofycl for the training of men in the use of druga.

Esstatedthats m and a specialist in electric shock was present in the building and ha agreed to arrange a short mneting after this conference 二 for those who wished to talk tosrelative pogsible use of electric shock or similar devices in counection with "Artichoke" work.

13. At this point in the conference, the idea of setting. up a lab-
4 oratory for certain work in the Agoncy was discujsod. Mserzrese suggested that they contemplatela laboratory involving sbout four rooms and using six men who would bo professional researchers. astated that he had discussed this matter infonally with,mee ztry
sstated, at this point, that whersas he thought the idea was probably sownd, he felt a great many of the details should be discussed befors consideration be given the project. le stated that he recently had been able to interest theeeee in the"Artichoka" work and he folt that ir 1-1

choka" work and he felt, that if a laboratory waa to be set us, thodt should undorstand the type of work done there. /eshzao stated the position that. the use of Agency perçonnel in drug experimentation of any type would have to be considered with a great deal of caution and mamv objectiona would have to be overcome before this ronld he dann mamv objectiona would have to be overcome before this could be done.

A nlso stated that heretofore they o Agency had not shoxn any interest in Agency work along the "Artichoke" lines or other related lines but they have recently cone around to a fo-
A sition of real support for this type of work.stated that, in his cpinion, the laboratory should te a much broader type of laboratory and not purely & medical laboratory.

lh. At this point, the question of whethereso who wa3 fornerly in-vg,would do ag a co-ordinator in the "Artichoke" type ofwork. astated that he would definitely disapprove of connection with this type of work and did not think was suitable for it.

Ae 15. rtated thatnd been vory highly recommended as an outstanding phychiatrist in the country, but that A rrshad been informed that it would be impossible to obtain the ger-C vices ofysesincy he was extremely busy.

Ara 16.armotagain brought up the suhject of Lhe "Vial" and stated that:the/rsopeeple were completing, their tests on the instrunent. and final recults should be known in ahoit two weeks. a
AB stated that the information nov coning Troniniicated that the instrument was of vastly more interest than originally thought and

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it was.essential that every singl itom in connection with Lhis would have to be fully cone into. In this connoction, it was sucgestod that B.F the apeople send one of thelr top men tapsf the toxicologist
TOL who made the original findings was still available. anformed that his organlzation would make every elfort to obtain the other Instrument, run down thesacoxicologist, and find out complste details on the two agents in qieation since it now appears
A stated that he was not certain whether or not these two azento that the agents were possibly lying or at least evasive in their answero. had been run on the polygraph and he would find Lhia out and would set in motion the necessary orders for this to be done.

17. The conference concluded at approximately 3:l5 Pii. 4