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MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

SUBJECT: Meeting with]

0/DDS& T) and I met with7in lyesterday. He met us at the zirport whare we had,our discussion, returning us . and took us to his hore where we had ou to the airport for our flight back to Washington. to the airport . •  cnov of!

stated that he had a copy of his correcteu
transcipt of a telephone conversation with David Belin of the 2.1
Rockefeller Commission. We told him that our interest was not
in the Castro operation, as such. However, the report that and I did in l967 (he recalled being interviewed by us) did
1. provide sore leads. to a new subject of interest. The 1967 rcport referred to his involvement in August through October of 1960 with the treatment of some cigars. The record showed that those cigars were never used and were destroyed by him after the rctirement of Col. Edwards in June of 1963. We told him that thç record also showed that in February 196l he had tested some pills He remembered both these incidents.. We told him that our question was how he happened to for these materials, The significance know to go tol of this question now is that the Agency is trying to reconstruct a relationship that TSD had with Fort Detrick. relationship that o which is in very 3. first showed us his transcript, which is in very
géneral terms, but that is meaningful if one is familiar with his
peripheral role in the Castro affair. It reported the receipt of Tas well as their raturn to him
after being treated. It also recorded his experimenting with the the cigars and delivery tol stated 7 When interviewed by Belin,
pills that he did not know what materials were used in trcating the cigars. test, in talking with Belin, described that in 1967
His description of thef
the unsatisfactory nature of the test. I told had told us that the material was botulinum to which

7 August 1975

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salis:acioy Idescribed how he lirst came to be involved with 4.
the people in TSD. He was interested in developing 2 system of
type-identity of individuals

1 Through this interest Jof TSD. They developed . became familiar with some 50 packages of type-identification materials. He does not know what happened to this system, and suspects that they may have been destroyed by persons who did not have the same iniçrest in fhe concept as he. As a matter of interest, there were other forms of identification,{

5. assumed that TSD was doing work at Detrick. He was never told this directly, but felt that work was being done although he there. He was not familiar with thel recognized thedigraph.

stated that in the late 1950s (perhaps around:
1957) someone in the DDI invited a number of inter-Agency (sic) 6
people to go out to Detrick for a three-day program, That was
prior to the time, according to his recollection, that Detrick
constructed the cinder block building that it used later for a good
deal of its special work. He saw the building at a Iater date.' It
was built quite close to the road and he felt it could easily be
sabotaged. Someone could hit it with a bazooka yhich'would
"collapse the vacuum system" which would lead to considerable doès not recall
trouble by the release of bacteria. /
knowing any one at Fort Detrick, aithough he had He did not want to go
1. out there in any event, because the micro-biologists were"parading"
and he might become identified with it. He stated that he knew that TSD had direct access to Detrick, and also to NIH, but that he cannot answer today how he knew.

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()

"was appointed Special 7. 1. recalled that Scientific Advisor to DDP Bissell, and that his offce was adjoining Bissell's. This explainedjassociation with a variety of who had "lots -proposals. He said that he could talk with role scemed to be a sort of feasibility of ideas." His,{ review. The DDP called himin from time to time to check the fcasibility of ideas from a mediçal point of view, As an example, Admiral Raborn had promised someone that there would be a TSL was called in. His participation led to a failed o this, and successful conclusion of the investigation and the system is uscd in police work today, according to him,

8.1 felt that he considered jandi 1 (the latter now deceased) as friendly competitors. He seemed to about whom he was hold a different opinion off understands he currently cxitical for public statements that Velt that he could deal directly is making from knoying this but he haà to keep( withł insisted on people dealing only with him. f becausel 'managed to conduct sore informal business this wayand :felt that perhaps the best person with knowledge was a man who had the."best brains" and an overall responsibility in TSD. He gave us the following name and adáress:

9. We ialked about \_iparticipation in the treatrent of the cigars and the making of the pills. We asked how he happened Given the nature of the material iwe to know to go to hoped thatit indicated some knowledge on his part of what was umder development at Detrick. He thinks that Col. Edwards came to him and suggested it. He viewed his role in this instancc as serving as It also provided the medical screen for reviewing the concept of what TSD offered. Col. Edwards would have told him jby and would not have mentioned to go to TSD or name.

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10. We asked "if he had any knowledge of the Agency funding for the Datrick program or for construction of the building there. He said he had none. The,only knowledge that he had of the TSD bidget was when he once saw some papers dealing with a cortract with

This was a program concerned with use of drugs in connection vith interrogation and ptograms in defense against drugs.

11. We asked if he knew a He said that he had worked with him on one program, .1

1
came to believe that it would not serve the purpose claimed and "a group of us worked against it." They proved that they were right. [ didn't like this" andsaid he never really
. worked with him zgain. There was a man involved in some way with this by the name of(spelling uncertain).

12. talked about other things that he did. He referred to the case of

He said that he talked to no case officers on operations without approval, so far as operations are concerned.

13. said that he was familiar with delivery systerns that had been developed for application of certain materials.. He kew about the microbioinoculator (dart system) ánd related it to the 2pplication of tranquilizers to elephants, lions and tigers. He was fariliar with an He said that he had lobbied to make sure that these systems were not used on humans.

166

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75-172

14. We summarized for what he had told us asking if it was correct that he had no direct knovledge or involvement in the TSD program at Detrick,. that his knowledge was indirect, being related to specific instarices. He stated that this was correct.