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Office MeMOrandum• UNITED"STATES GOVERNMENT

to: Chief, Security Research Staff, LS

DATE: January 1953

FRO : Chief, Technical Branch, SRS, I&S

suBjEct: Report of Trip to Mlinneapolis, Minnesota, and Detroit, Michigan, for ARlICllokE Purposes -- 16 through 19 December 1952.

1. Between 16 December 1952 and 19 December 1952, the writer visitad linnsapolis, Hinnesota, and Detroit, !üichigan, in connection with possible future work in regard to'the ARTiCHOiE Project.

2. In more specific detail, the reasons for the trip were as follows:

I. In Ilinneapolis.

C A. To talk with

in regard to narcoaralysis, use of "truth serums", and related matters.

B. To ascertain -present and future interests.in ARTICHOKE-type zork and to ascertain
1 if would be interested in being a. paid covert consultant to this Agency, and to
C exanine the physical setup and

explore various possibilities in this connection.

B c. To find out if and/or individuals attached to could carry out experimental work along lines of intorost to ANTICHOKE and to determinc if these individuals havo any interosts or are engagzì in any work parallel to ours.

D. To ascertain fron and othor individuals encountered nanes of individuals of possible interest to tho ARTICik)kE progran.

A/BZ 53-2

STANDATO POR NC, 64

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II..At Detroit.

A. To renew discussions with

. and ascertain if he still maintained interest in the ARTIClOKE problcms.

CB. To exanine physical plant and determine if it issuitable for an experimental progran for ARTICHOKE.

CC. To obtain fron such ideas as he may have developed fron previous discusnions along ARTIchokz lines concerning, cover, operations, details, nanos, eto. in connection with a possible futuro progran of experimentation ánd rescarch.

3. On 16 and 17 December 1952, the writer engaged in a series of discussions with concorning the above mentioned topics. statements or answers to pertinent questions are set out bclou in substance. This method is"used to clarify and shorten explanitions.

Q: :hat is your present emplöyment?

C Q: Are you fully employed now as an

keep me employed rogularly and almost

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continuously at all hours of the day and night. Whatever additional work I do would have to be done in amy free time I could find, hut where I havc an interest I am willing to sacrifice part of my free time in that connection.

Have you done any work since you left the Army on narco-analysis or "truth seruns"?

A: Ycs. I have engaged in sonc researci and and I have worked ono actual case. This case we regarded as unsuccessful and very rare since the subject was totally negativistic.

Q: Do you intend to do any work on narco-analysis in. the near future?

A: Yes. I have an intense intercst in this vork and I wish to do advanced University resoarch along these C lines. I intend to also associats with

in all of his efforts in this work. I an endeavoring to have permit me to seek advanced post-graduate degrees based on my research in narcoanalysis. licsevcr, to date, we have not reached an D agreement on this. Hy suporiors. agreemont on this. Hy sunoriors.

B vish ne to do advanced work: along spocialized lines.

Q: Are any of your imnediate associates engoging in this type of work now?

A: Hone are working on this tyme of thing and, in fact, some of tlem doubt the real value of it, but I an cortain that this is merely due to a lack of understanding on their part. It is my hope that after any agreement is roached by your Ageney and myself (if that comes about) that you can have cleared certain nen with whom I associate so that you can talk with them and point out the value and potential of this work, particularly fron a national point of viow. Unfortumately, as you realize, I cannot tell them of your interosts and thoy boliove that thc only interests of concorn to me are "police typo" interests.

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Is there any advancod work along those lines being
done now at. the
or any work that cones close or parallels the
ARTIClOKE type of work?
There is no specialized sor!: being done at the prcsent time except that engaged
in by (see details later), but I honestly
beliove that if carefully approached the
would be vory interested in carrying out such a
project. (Subsequent discussion with
flected that also felt that would fully support any effort along
these lines.)

Do you know of any work being donc along these lines at the

Both of these men, to my knowledge, arc intorested in ARTICHOKE-typo problems and I beliave they will be good men to talk with in the future. There is probably other work of interest being dono at in the psychiatric field but I am not too fariliar with tho work over there.

What are your present connoctions with the Minncapolis or State of llinnesota Police?

Q: Do you contenplate any series of tosts or case work along ANTICHOKE lines in the imodiate future?

A: 'le hive no series of cases plamned, hut at the present we will work on any cases that cone up to

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Hovever, if a project, could be sat, up, I am certain that could produce a great many cases. In addition, has absolute access to which is the and he could have all of the volunteer assistance needed

Q: If, in the future, you have a series of cases or tests contemplated, could we send an observation team to watch you work?

A: Yes. I feel that we could handle any numbcr of observers within reajon. Of course, if a project were set up we would arrange it so that you could maintain observers here at any timo or ve could handle traineos hcre for you as part of the agreement.

C Q: How nany men could be handled ir tho tests were being run solely by you and and the

À: I aa certain'we could handle at least thrce without trouble.

Q: Can we borrou your tape recordings on previous cases?

A: Yes. I have made arrangoments for these. This does not involve any expense to you. (Tho writer brought
C back with hin a box of tape recordings madc by
C analvsis in crial  in.ont ctisnt th se records are being studlied by ARTICHOKE.)

Q:.Do you know anyone else personally or otherwise who is contomplating a progran of narco-analysis using criminals or handling crininal cases?

A: lio.

Q: At the present tine, what do you rogard as the best chenicals or combinations in this vork?

A: I ar very disappointed that during my absence in the C a also disapoited that t t cmicals d.i

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combinations have becn discovered, but I believe that many chemicals should be tried including four or five of the new barbiturates that have not as yet been tested. At the present, our best guess is pentothal and, if necessary, something like picrotoxin could be used as a stimulant.

Q: Are you familiar with Desoyn?

A: Yes, but I have not worked with it in this conncction.

Q: Has anyone in your area made tests along ARTICHOKE lines with lysergic acid or related compounds?

A: I do not know, but I do know of the zork of e to Eurone. (The writer felt it inadvisable to ex- and of recent trip plore further into knowledge of

Q: At the present timc, have you any idcas about chenicals or corpounds that you think might be interesting to try?

A: llone, specifically, but I knov thore are many that siould be triel. iiovever, all this reqires work on many test cases under controlled conlitions before results can be definitely established.

Q: Can you suggest any research that might be profitable along our lines?

A: Yes. This research in my opirzion strongly needs the use of an EDG machine operated by men uho thoroughly understand it. I believe this should bo checked out with specialists sinco it is, in my opinion, the only way to accurately determinc at what level we can expect individuals to talk under drugs. It world be essential to any experimental and research program that we undertook here and would be an item of high priority for purchase in connection with ARTICHOkE work.

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CQ: Do you kncw

A: Yes. lle is a very excellent.man and I feelthat he would be interested in any project along ARTIClloiOE linas and would co-operate. ilis support in this would be very important.

C Q: What is doing at the prosent time?

If he is doing any researchi along ARTICllOKE lines, I do not know abont it.

2 ilave you or any of your associatos dono any work on conbinations of chemicals and hypnosis or with electroshock: in this matter?

A: Not to my knowlodge.

Q: I asked you when I intorvioved you previously and I repeat the question--in your personal opinion, do yo" think the results ohtainod to date by yourself and others indicates that these techniques are worthiiile fron a modical point of view, from a narco-analysis point of viou, and an intelligence point of view?

A: Yes.

q: If you had unlimited time and moncy :uas no problom, do you have amy ideas along these lines that you would like to explore?

A: Yes. I have nontiomod some of my views in answers to previous quostions.

Q: In adiition to your curront work, are you capable of handling experimentation and rescarch?

A: Yes. Althongh I am now fully employed, I believe I could carry out experimentation and research particularly

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if I could explain the nature of the work to certain individuals. I feel that if vour interests.. were made known to

I could then

devote "officially" a considcrable anount of time to such research. If, however, I was a consultant of yours on a covert basis, I would have to do a considerable anount of gork on my own time on research plus giving as much time as possible to in the future.

(The following personal questions were put to by the writer:)

Q: Would you be interested in consultant work for us?

A: Yes-Either of two types. If necessary, I would work in covert for you but I would prefer to have this association known to and . and a few others since this would greatly facilitate the work.

Q: Would you be willing to travel temporarily to engage in actual work?

A: Yes, but if I was a covert consultant I would not be able to travel except rarely and then in a limited manner

, I an on call at any time. Howvever, if my activities were known to the men I mentioned, I could be "loaned" for such operational work as necessary. I cannot tell you for how long I can travel for operational purposes nor whether I could leave the United States and do work for you. This would, of course, depend on my status as mentioned above.

A: Ia working day and night

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men you have mentioned previously?

A: Definitely, yes. I will furnish dotails later.

Q: Since you are aware of the nature of our work and you fully realize how secretly it must le handled, can you suggest any specialists or outstanding men you might wish to recorwend to us ard nen you vould likc to contact if you vere a censultant to us?

A: Yes. There aurs a mumbcr of men I would liko to talk to and I will furnish backgrounds on then later. It vould be vory important for instance if I could talk
C officially to men like

C: Since I am not a personnel officor, I cannot discuss salery vith you, but at what levcl would you vork in a consultant capacity?

A: Foncy is no-objcctive. I would work at any reasonable tasis.

Q: Do you nced recordin!; equipment cut here? liould it bc of value in our rescarch?

A: Possibly in the future I could use rocording equipmont, but not nox. I would apprecinte it if you would let us have soae rečording tape which we cen C use in connection with work. (Tape will be sent from this Office when now supplies arrive.)

4. Since vas engaging in operative practics during
part of the time the writer was in liinneapolis, the writer arranged
through to have an informal talk with along
lines of intorest to the ARTICllOKE Project. Although is not a
cleared contaci., lence., the い……，

vriter felt, that he could discuss in vcry genoral Loits pertinent məttors.

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The wriier docs not know for certain whether or not knows that the writer is attached to this àgency, but is of the opinion that knew this at the time of this dliscussion.

C 7. In general, tho discussion showed that is extremely interested in the develorment of new techniques and new chemicals for use in this tyne of vork and is not apnarontly interested in receiving edditional noney for himself.

3. Using very Feneral terms and discussing πatters in a suppositional way, the writer discussed projects and proposals with asrured tho writer that he would wolcome any prcjoct for develepront or research along the narco-analysis-"truth serum" lines. lie stated he was

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absolutely certain that a project of this nature voild havo the full support and because of his work and long association at he statod that he could definitoly get all the interested to completoly co-operate.

9. In the iratter of what he would need for such a project. stated that he had plenty of space but that ie would need an operations roon, recention room, and a room that would bo furnished somehat in the mannor of a livingroom. He stated hc could not operate without air conditioning equipment during the sumner nonths. le stated that in his opinion that if a project was vorked out would do most of the above work,, le stated that he vould need certain additional assistants such as a clerk-stenographer to maintain the recoris and handle reports and sonc sort of a statistical assistant to keop the clinical records and an arrangenent made for a part-timo nurse which wo:ld be cssential, in his oninion, in connection tith the operations room. He stated he would prolably nood certain rodical equipment and suoplics and sone tochnical equipmcnt, recording devices, tapos, gtc. stated

C their work: and conduct future research and he and both felt that from a mcdical point of view an EEG machine which he thought would cost about 3.000.00would be a rreat help. He also stated that he felt that
B if an E machine could be brought into thc projecl, it would insuro continuous assistance from which

gould be very useful in the rescarch work.

stated in his opinion that his services as well as and any others uho would assist in the vork lle stated, houever,

that since these projects would urobably involve extra time, particularly work: condncted at night or over weckends, this would have to be worked out some vay in connection with any project that was laid on.

also stated that in connection with a project of this type, if one were set up, they could, uithout difficulty, handlc trainees.

stated that since trainces would be vorking actual cascs, he could give men sent to hia advanced polygraph trainine, investigative case vork, dlirect interrogation and narco-analytic intorrogation trainins. lle statcd that trainoos would be no problcm and that they would, of course, be handled without any additional cost.

NOT: During the above conversation, stated he is familiar with the on the side-tono delay systom

lle stated for the record that the projoct -thoro was a stcal from his carlier ideas and he felt it was a waste of tine and money. also

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stated he is intensely interosted in tho development of neu and electronic typo polygraphs and claims he has a man

stated that he felt the presently used polygraph could be made vastly more sensitive and do a far better job if totally electronic.

stated in his opinion that tho Stoelting machine is actually better than that put out by Associated Research.

11. .While at writer met and talked with, in very general terms, other members including certain membars of Jong these was

12. Dy using and without disclosing any details of the background of the writor, the writer was able to discuss narcoanalysis from an anesthesiologists' point of yiew. The uriter found out thet is very intcrested in this type of vork but basically only fror an ancsthesiology point of view and not criminal narco-analysis.

valuable if one could be set up that would test anesthetic agents. He stated in a project like this there is an absolute nced of an EEG machine since this is the only known devics that would indicate pcrtinent type of brain activity. stated he believed that there arc many drugs today that need-testing along these lines and ho felt that specialists should be called upon to

assist in a project like this. lle stated that a great deal of testing could be done in connection with now drugs and stated he vanted to work on his master's thesis on anesthetic drugs (According to this could he tied diractly into the ARTICHOKE type of work.). In the opinion of the writer andl in the opinion of would look with groat favor on

bably give full authority to work officially on narco-analysis and drugs which are rolated to narco-analysis.

NOTE: As mentioned beforo, is one of tho men that feels should be security cloared if any project is contomplated at

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or if covert consultant.

13. In the discussions with and the writer obtained the nanes of certain individuals at In both and opinion, these individuals would have to be nade cognizant of any projcct or or are individuals who would be axpccted to give valuahle assistance to the development of a project along the lines of future researcn in the narcoanalysis field. These names are set out imnediately below:

himself is to be made a

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lh. In addition, the following individuals wore montioned in the and particularly Comments relative theso iodividuals are inserted at this point for information and record only:

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15. On 18 and 19 December 1952, thc uritor engaged in a series of discussions with

Detroit, liichiran, concerning ARTIClOKE and the possiblo usc of in connection with future ARfICilOKE experimentation and research. is a fully cleared consultant to this Agency.

16. In ordcr to clarify and shorten explanations, some of the conversations with are reduced to the qucstion and answor form below:

Q: When ve last talked (early summer 1952), you felt that was an ideal place to carry oul cortain excrimentation along lines of interest to us, do you still fecl this is so?

A: Yos.

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Q: Do you fecl that vould afford sufficient cover, directly or indircctly, for a covort operational experiment along APTICllOKE lines?

A: Yes: Hy opinion is that yould afford excellent covcr (sce details later).

Q: Do you have asspciated with you or know,any outstanding researchers, psychiatrists, etc. whom you feel would be worthwhile to obtain security clearances on so that you or possibly our reprcsentatives coulà engage them in conversations along ARTICHOKE lines?

A: Yes, I will subnit thoir nanos and hiographic statements later.

Q: At the prescnt time, what work is bein carried on in or in Detroit along, narco-analysis or hypno-analytic lines that you feel would le of interest to us?...

A: lone, except that which is carried on ty privatephysicians.

Q: Could you carry on eperinent-tion involving diifferent types of chenicals or ncw chenicals successfvlly?

A: Definitely, yes. This could be donc both in dircct applicatien to our cases

Q: Would it be possible for a team of men to visit you to engage in experimental work or observe work being done if such a project could be set up?

A: Ycs. Hy oflice is of sufficiont sise so that we could handlc trrinces or obscrvation teans without any problem. No quostions vould be asked as my Staff is used to obsoryers cominr in fror all over the United States.

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Q: Hou nany men could you succossfully cover if such a project vere in operation?

A: Any reasonable mumber.

Q: Have you, in the past or recently, used the technique of narco-analysis in crininal work?

A; Yes, numerous timcs in connection vith "special" cases

Q: llave any of these sessions ever been recorded?

A: No, for obvious reasons.

Q: At. the present, do you need any recordint equiprent out here? -In the event a projoct vcre sct up, would you need additional reccrding equipnent?

A: At the prcsent time, I have some recerding equipnent vhuich is sufficient for ny purposcs, but if extensive vor!: is to ke laid on and tape or vire recordiugs were made es a rorular frocedure, vould require somo technical installations.

Although I knew you aro fully employed in your present job, can you still travel for a limited tine and within reasonable limits?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you kow of any men you might wish to consult along lines of intercst to us cither at Detroit or clsowhorc and for whon a sccurity cloarancc should be obtaincd?

A: Yes. lares and biographic statements will be furrished in the near futuro.

B

3

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Q: In your professional opinion, based on the york you have seen and participated in, do you feel the narcoanalytic tochrique (or the AilTICilOKE technique) is worthwhile fron cur point of view and furthermore, do you fecl that resorch experimentation and efforts should be oxpended along these lines?

A: Dcfinitely, yes. I feel that both fron the point of view of ARTICliCKE, and the nedical-legal point of view, a project working along these lines woild le axtremely valuable.

Q: Will you inforn us in the future of any ideas relative experinentation, neu techniqucs or now drugs that you feel are worthy of our attention?

A: Ycs.

17. In addition to thc above questions and answers, the writer made C some notos concerning vieus and opinions, thc physical set up B of amplified and appended at tiis point for purposes of information. , and other pertincnt matters. These notos are

18. very cloarly indicated an intonze interest in tho ARTI-CHolE prohlen and obviously feels that much can and should be done alont these lines. lle undorstands clearly the mumcrous problens involving thc laying on of any type of project and clearly expresscd·to the writer his views that the matter should be handled cautiously and intelligently and that the Agency's interest would have to be protected throughout.

19. In the opinion of the writer. and do furnish excellent cover for rescarch and experimentation alons our lines,

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lie has many tines served along relatcd lines to the ARiICHOkE work (drugs, criminal activity, etc.) and, hence, his interest in any new field such as a project along ATI-CHOkE lines would attract no urusual attention.

21, In the convorsations with and narticularly in connection uith cover,. . pointed out that cover could easily be arranged cithor directly through or through in Detroit.

22. In connection with funds for a project that might be vorked out involving ARrICOkE research and experimentation, felt that this would require very little money. Ile statod he would bo glau to voluntocr his services and he kncw that if techniques were developed that were valuable. sould mnterially Fain thcroby. lle stated that, of course, members need not le informed of this :ork and would mcrely carry out instructions and would operate on thc belief they werc cnrring out a very upecial roscarch for or for some other organization or institution.

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23. stated that the only actual problems involved in laying
on such a projcct would be the fact that he would have to make certain of cornizant of the purpose of
his supcriors
the work. LUC NULR stated that certain had been made cognizant

of his association with the Agency when he first bocamo a consultant and had approved his activity on our behalf. He stated that these men were patriotic and intclligent and he felt that this matter could te very easily handled. Ile stated, however, that beforo aiy movos vere made in this direction, he would, of course, work out details with this Agency.

A

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Reference operation in Performed
Corps, attached to specialist
clandestine exam. as needed. Trained at
in cardio and neuro-vəscular matters and srudied psychology
and psychiatry. Should they consider recruit. 221arch

Referred to headquarter official re. use . No attempt to recruit as yet. 31March

I and S requests biographicall info to investigate. Considered of interest.

22 March

PI3,I,64,14