MORI 190597

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l. On Thursday, 21 February l952, the writer had an extended interview withl

The conversation lasted from 3:00 PM to approximately 6:30 PM. The interview was laid on through the Contact Branch and introductions were made through fof the Now York City Contact Office. No difficulties.were encountered in this matter:

2. Tis a professional hypnotist of exceptionally good reputation. He apparently has other means and has been a professional engineer and accountant. His apartment is in a deluxe apartment neighborhood in and is in exceptionally good taste. resides there with his sister.

3. is about six feet tall, wears horn-rim glasses,
.has a strong, agressive look, and, physically, is quite impressive.
He appears highly intelligent, was courteous, amiable, and co-operative throughout. Before getting to cases, the writer fenced with Tfor approximately three-quarters of an hour, talking generally about hypnosis and not disclosing positive security interests. After establishing in the writer's mind that was competent and thoroughly understood the meaning of secrecy, the writer opened up and discussed positive matters. Set out below are a series of questions and answers which cover, in substance, the details of the interview with

Q: What are your experiences in general with hypnotism?

A: I have been a professional hypnotist for at least 15 years. At present, I am employed on a very confidential basis two days a week working in the

I also work constantly

and I work continuously with all types of patients at I am not teaching hypnotism now, but I have taught many individuals hypnotism in the past.

Q: What part, do you think, did hypnotism play in the D and other show trials by the USSR and their gatellites?

A: In my personal opinion, hypnosis possibly combined with

A /3, 6,7

25 Fobruary 1952

Interview With.

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duregs, and possibly drugs, is how the "confossions" were brought about, I have long been interested in these trials and I believe it entirely posgible to bring these things about through these techniques. ·It would take a great deal of continuous application and study of the individual to produce these results but the enemy has plenty of time and is capable of using any methods.

Can vou obtain information from an individual, willing or unwilling, by hypnotism?

Definitely, yes. Many of the medical casos I work on are involved in obtaining personal,intimate information and through hypnotism, I have been quite successful in obtaining this. If an individual refuses to co-operate with hypnosis, the doctors with whom I work use drugs, always sodium amytal.

Q:. Do you think that this system would be useful in obtaining information from a recalcitrant, obstinate, and entirely unco-operative iniividual?

Ar Yes,'definitely.' That is the only way to approach this type of individual, but even at that you would have to study your individual psychologically and the matter would require great skill. All people have to be approached in different manners as far as hypnotism goes, but if you could gain their confidence or at least indicate so, they would clearly understand you were not hostile to them and your battle would be more than half won.

Q: How far do you think individuals could be controlled by. hypnosig?

A: This is a very difficult subject. Post-hypnotics will last twenty years and will be very strong if re-enforced from time to time. However, if direct control is wanted, and particularly without re-enforcement, perhaps twelve hours would be the most you could expect and even then a possibility exists that the person under hypnosis might suddenly be awakened by some external stimulus.

Q: Have you ever had any experience with drugs?

A: Yes, many times. I have worked with doctors using sodium amytal and pentothal and have obtained hypnotic control"!

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after the drugs were used. In fact, many times the drugs were used for the purpose of obtaining hypnotic control.

Q: Were any other drugs used? Do you know any "new" drugs or are there any "wonder" drugs that can be used in this businesg?

A: No. I have known doctors to try other drugs but they do not have any success and almost without exception in my work, sodium amytal and pentothal are the weapons used. If I had to tackle a case, tough and unwilling, I would rely on.sodium amytal. I do not know of any "wonder" drugs. I do not believe they exist and none of the psy-:: .chiatrists and doctors I work with use anything but those I have mentioned.

Q: Have you ever heard of hypnosis being used in connection with electroshock?

No. I am familiar with the electroshock convulsion and coma but I have never attempted to obtain hypnotic con
trol thereafter and have never heard of anyone doing this. However, some of my friends who are psychiatrists constantly use electroshock and I have completo access to their work. I shall make some experiments along these lines in the near future and when I see you again, we will discuss the results of this.

Q: Are there any individuals you might know who would be worthwhile in contacting along these lines?

Ai Offhand, I cannot think of anyone except

is perhaps one of the outstanding in the country, thoroughly understands drugs and is well acquainted with my work. As far as hypnotists are concerned, I do not bolieve there are five competont professional hypnotists in the U. S. today and I have nothing but contempt for the collegs professor who talks about hypnosis. Only the professional who can handle hypnosis in front of the public and on a large scale is capable of really giving first-rato advice or information on hypnotic work.

Q: Would you be willing to act as a consultant to this Agency? C was fully informed that the writer was making no

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offers and in no positlon to recruit personnel. This offer was being made in general terms.)

Yes, I feol that we aro at war and if I can be of any help whatsoever, I shall be glad to give my time. If you need me on any given case, I will be glad to cone.

Would you accept, pupils for private coaching? (Same explanation as above.)

Yes. I think I could train an individual or at least give hia a suhstantial background.in two weeks, working out with him three times a weck.

Q: Do you have any ideas that hypnotism could be used as a weapon?

Yes. I.have thought about this often. It could certainly be used in obtaining information from recalcitrant people particularly with drugs: Furthermore, it can be used as a morale factor and in addition, it could be used as a recruiting source for special types of work: I will explain the last two. You have large D.P. camps in Europe and Asia. You have to entertain these poople. A good professional hypnotist is a good entertainer. Using mass hypnotic methods, he could drive home thoughts that would be of great benefit to our gide. Individuals that he gained control of through hypnotic influence could te convorted to strong supporters of our viewpoint through suggestion. "The opposite of this, of course, would hold true. Furtheremore, along these lines, a good hypnotist running hypnotic shows for entortainment would pick up a great many subjects, some of whon might be exceptionally good subjects for us. These subjects could easily be tabbed and put to our use.

Q: Have you sver teen able to produce hypnosis without an individual's knowledge?

At Yes, through the relaxing technique and on rare occasions teen able to produce hypnotism against a parson's will. However, you cannot count on this and to attempt to attack an individual who did not want to be hypnotized alone would be almost an impossible task. In that type of case, I would use sodium amytal and/or sodium pentothal.

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Q: Do you have any special techniques that you think are valuable?

All techniques are valuable. I use about eighteen different approaches to individuals ranging from fear to anxiety, to deception, etc., etc. All individuals are different and a hypnotist always studies his subjects carefully, psychologically and otherwise, before attempting hypnosis with them. Only skilled professional hypnotists have proper training and work at it often enough to be skilled hypnotists. I would be glad to show you all my techniques when we have time to discuss them.

There is a peculiar and somewhat dangerous technique involving pressure on the carotid artery. The technique of using pressure on this artery is largely a matter of timing. Pressure in the right place cuts off the flow of blood to the brain, apparently causing a rapid comalike condition -- during this condition, hypnotic control can sometimes be obtained. The technique is not casy to learn. I have tried it only a few times but it has been successful.

: How effective are post-hypnotics; over what distances and time can they be effective?

A: Properly used post-hypnotics will last twenty years. They can be made more effective by ro-onforcement from time to ,time. Post-hypnotics are not affected at all by time or travel or distance away from the person who placed the posthypnotic. As a rule, post-hypnotics should be l00% effective in good subjects and they would certainly be more effective than a person operating under direct hypnotic control, since a person in a hypnotic trance can suddenly be brought out of it for various reasons,particularly after many hours,while a post-hypnotic will always remain strong.

Can individuals be made to do things under hypnosis that they would not do otherwise?

A: This is a muchly debated subject and, in my opinion, as a general rule, no individual will do anything against his moral code or upbringing under a hypnotic trance they would not do otherwise. Howover, it should be remomborod that hy the proper type of conditioning and a very intelligent and understanding approach using psychology, individuals could be taught to do anything inoluding murder, suicide, etc. This would te difficult, but I believe it could be done by a careful process of

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conditioning a personpmychologically while under a hypnotic state, setting a stage for the act as it were. I do not have much faith in test experiments in colleges because they are, by their very nature, experiments or tests. I do believe that you could carry out acts that would be against an individual's moral foelings if thay wero rightly, psychologically conditioned. Of course, it would not be as much of a problen to have an imoral person comnit an immoral act or a murderer comit a murder, since by their nature they would have. no hesitancy to do such a thing in their normal life.

I do not knos of any drugs that would do this under any circumstances, but I do feel that the and other familiar cases in which individuals confessed to crines which they could not have possibly comaitted was hrought about by hypnosis, as I mentioned before, and lengthy psychological conditioning. The question itself, of course, is one that has been debated a great many times but is difficult to actually arrange a "practical" tegt.

Do you have any special techniques or ideas for detecting ir. an individual is under hypnosis or not?

A: Yes, I have several methods for dstecting this and if I see you again, I will go over them in detail with you. There are certain tests that I make which I think are very effective. Along this same line, I also use soveral methods for detecting when individuals are faking or play acting with me or feigning hypnosis..

Q: Do you have any system for detecting good hypnotic subjects, particularly not along tho lines of stage entertainments?

A: No particular system, but there are certain tachniques that I apply in looking for good subjects. Most of these are tasically standard tests and are, undoubtedly, known to you. (Reference was made to standard tests for suggestibility, all known to the writer.) In this connection, when I see you again, I will show you gome of the methods I use along these lines.

Q: Can hypnosis be broken by another hypnotist if specific : instructions have been given to a subject to prevent this?

A: I have been able to do this, but this ig not easy and requires a great deal of time and effort, but I beliave that:

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that, almost. any hypnotic conirol cnn be detected and broken if sufficient tina and a careful psychological approach ara used.

Doea alcohol assist in the obtaining of hypnosis in a subject?

I do not teliove it helps. There are many other more important aids to hypnosis than a social orink or two. The first of these I believe would be anxiety, another would be fear, third might te exhaustion. However, in many cases. alcohol does make individuals more pliable and in that sense night have some results.

Do you have any material that you think might be of interost to me along these linos?

Yes, As you know, an individual who has been hypnotized makes a very excellent courier. They can be givon messages while under hypnosis which they themselves do not know and only an individual knowing the codo can get this message from this courier. Even assuming that ths post-hypnotlc control could be broken or the individual hypnotized,it could still be protected perhaps as follows:

A uerson could be regressed to a certain time and date and then given the message and unless the person who subsequently gained control of the subiect regressed the subject to the correct date and time set out. he could not get the message. Even more secure would be to move the indiyidual forward. If he were moved from thirty vears of age to thirty-five years of age at a given date and time and then given the message, unloss the individual could guess the age, the time, and date in the future, he could not obtain the message.

In my opinlon, the use of this hypnotic technique is valuable from your point of view. Certain it is that by hypnotic control over an individual you can extract information probably better than any other known way. Furthermoro, in good subjects you can create complete amnesias zhich should be helpful. In addition, as I mentioned above, I think this technique could be used on a mass scale as I explained both as a morale factor or for propaganda purpoges. Some people in tho ArmyI know are giving thought to these items, but whether it can ever be sold at the top-level, I cannot say. I think it would be very valuable. .1

Q:

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I will try when I return from my trip to contact a number of individuals, psychiatriats, and doctors that I know and without discussing any reasons, obtain from them any information that they may have on new drugs or techniques. I do not believe that there are any new drugs and I do not believe there is anything such as the "wonder" drugs which will produce instant talking when given to an individual. I believe our hypnotic capacities are as good as the and I also believe that they have no "wonder" drugs or any other drugs we do not know about. The only thing they have is plenty of tine and they care nothing for normal conventions.

For matter of record, professed great interest in this type of work stating that in his opinion, it had long been neglected by our Government. He stated he would contribute time and effort if he were called upon to do so and volunteered to assist in any case if he were called upon for assistance.