MORI 190593

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1. Reference is made to my mamorandum dated 6 February l952 requesting permission to interview In connectlon with the Artichoke problem.

2. On 7 March 1952 Was interviewed from l0:00 Al to 11:50 AM by and the writor in

3. Although is a fully cleared Agency employen and holds a responsibls position in and the writer discussed random subjects with until it was astnhlished that he was competent, had a goneral interest in Artichoke type work, and appreciated the necosçary secrecy involved in this tyne of discussion. Having estahlished these premises, was interviewed along Artichoke lines. after having reon given a briof resume of. the Artichoke work, stated that, whereas he was interested in the problem, he wanted it clearly undorstood that he felt morally opposed to the apnlication of these techniques insofar as he personally is concerned. lle stated, howover, that he recognized the fact that we are at war and tho "hre using Articioke technlques and even more brutal methods for obtaining their euus. o stated that whil? he could not carry out such techniques as injecting drugs into an.individual, he, nevertheless, felt that he could quite legitimately study the problem from a scientific point of view and from the point of view of one who is attempting to understand how the obtained the results they did in cases like the trial.

4. thereafter, discusscd at considarable length certain viows that he holds on the psychological conditioning of individualsand how individuals could te conditioned to achievo most any result provided time enough were taken and the inlividuals were studied in a clinical psychological manner. lie suggeated that, wheroas psychologists and psychiatrists work toward the restoring, and hullding up of a personnlity, it is obvious that the revers? of' this would be true -- that a personality could he changed, intanse montal confusion could be produced by doliberately attacking an individual along psychological lines.

5. stated that, whereas ho had studied the case, it had nevgr occurred to him that ha would ever considor using these.techniques from an Agency point of view, but he felt that as far as he was concerned, he would gladly assist by attempting to figure out from a point,of.view how they conditioned men likel before their trials.

A/B; II, 6,8

ll March 1952

Interviow With. A

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6. and the writer talked at, conaiderable length about possitle uses of hypnotlom in connection with the Artichoko work and, in general, it may te said that folt that there was a positive use for hypnotism. He agreed that individuals under hypnotisn will give information, but he pointed out that it could not always be regarded as accurate, since fantasy and even hallucinations are present in certain hypnotic stntes.

7. stated that he had oboerved soue work done with drugs and he, himself, had participated in attempting to oxtract information from individuals by drugs and hypnosis. In this connection, and the writer did not attompt to immeciataly pump for technical information or studies, since it was felt that adwill be held in the immediate future. ditional interviews with

8. throughout the intorview, wns entirely co-operative, appears highly intelligent, and olviously wns intensely interested although he insisted that morally he could not carry out any of tho Fluebird ideas although he recognized tho necessity for such activity.

9. The writer very carefully pointed out to that the reason for this interview was not to ohtain information fror but rather to present a series of problems to hin and iot him think of them and consider them in his mind. Twas also spacifically asked to consider any projects that he thoucht might bo valuablo or individuals who could be contacted anj who would have Information of interest to us.

stated that the problen was of considerarle interest 10. and that he regretted that he was unable to put full anl immediate attontion to it, hut promised that he would Five the mattors discussed or the writer when he very serious thought and would call had culled the various matters discussed over in his mind and applied what knowledge he had in those connections.

11. Tand the writer feal that! efforts will understands be profitable and hoth are of tho impresslon that the nood for secrecy in this type of work.

12. For matter of record, it should be noted that in order to ask axplained that the Tto cone over to this office, reason for tho intorview was in connoction with the fact thatf knew and hls work at

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