22-C00140397

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SUBJECT: Interview-WithY

DATE: 11 March 1952

A18,,2142

.52-81

1. Reference is made to my memorandum dated 6 February 1952 requesting permission to interview in connection with the Artichoke problem.

2. On 7 March 1952 was interviewed from 10:00 AM to 1l:50 AM by and the writer in

3. Although is a fully cleared Agency employee and holds a responsible position in fand the writer discussed random subjects with guntil it was established that he-was competent, had a generalinterest in Artichoke type work, and appreciated the necessary secrecy involved in this type of discussion. Having established these: premises, was interviewed along Artichoke lines. after naving been given a brief resume of the Artichoke' work, stated that, whereas he was interested in the problem, he wanted it clearly understood that he felt morally opposed to the application of these techniques insofar as he personally is concerned. He stated, howeyer, that he recognized the fact that we are at war and the are using Artichoke techniques and even morebrutal"methods for obtaining their ends. He stated that while he could not carry out such techniques as injecting drugs. into an individual, he, nevertheless, felt that he could quite legitimately study the problem from a scientific point of view and from the point of view of one who is attempting to understand how the obtained the results they did in cases like the trial.

4. thereafter, discussed at considerable length certain views that he holds on the psychological conditioning of individualsand how individuals could be conditioned to achieve most any result A provided time enough were taken and the individuals were studied in a clinical psychological manner. He suggested that, whereas psychologists and psychiatrists work toward the restoring and building up of a personality, it is obvious that the reverse of this would be true -- that a personality could be changed, intense mental confusion could be produced by deliberately attacking an individual along psychological lines.

5. stated that, whereas he had studied the 三 case, it had never occurred to him that he would ever consiaer using these techniques from an Agency point of view, but he felt that as far as he was concerned, he would ladly assist by attempting to figure out from al point of view how they conditioned men like before their trials.

C001403971

ANDARD POR NO. 64

Office Memorandum • UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT

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6. and the writer talked at considerable length about possible uses of hypnotism in connection with the Artichoke work and, in general, it may be said tha felt that there was a positive use for hypnotism. He agreeu that individuals under hypnotism will give information, but he pointed out that it could not always be regarded as accurate, since fantasy and even hallucinations are present in certain hypnotic states.

7. stated that .he had observed some work done with drugs and he, himself, had participated in attempting to extract information from individuals by drugs and hypnosis. In this connection, and the writer did not attempt to immediately pump for technical information or studies, since it was felt tliat auditional interviews with will be held in the immediate future.

8. throughout the interview, was entirely co-operative, appears highly intelligent, and obviously was intensely interested although he insisted that morally he could not carry out any of the Bluebird ideas although he recognized the necessity for such activity.

9. The writer very carefully pointed out to that the reason for this interview was not to obtain information from but rather to present a series of problems to him and let hin think of them and consider them in his mind. was also specifically asked to consider any projects that he thougnt might be valuable or.individuals who could be contacted and who would have information of interest to us.

10 Stated that the problem was of considerable interest and that he regretted that he was unable to put full and immediate attention to it, but promised that he would giu the matters discussed very serious thought and would call for the writer when he had culled the various matters discussed over in his mind and applied what knowledge he had in these connections.

11. and the writer feel that sefforts will be profitable and both are of the impression tha Ainderstands the need for secrecy in this type of work.

12 For matter of record, it should be noted that in order to ask to come over to this office explained that the reason for the interview was in connection with the fact that knew and his work at

C00140397