Genre: Forum

Feeding bowls - on the floor or raised? Was watching the mutts have their supper just now and they all adopt different postures to stoop and eat. Does anyone raise the bowls and does this help them or do I simply have too little going on in my life and should really find something worth worrying about? weima There was a study done in america on feeding raised bowls for the prevention of gastric torsion. It said that by feeding raised the dogs were less likely to have a torsion. A few years later the opposite was advised! Claire I feed from raised feeding bowls and will continue to do so until I am certain that putting the bowls on the floor is the best thing to do.  I think back to my horse days and a horse I used to look after for a friend was terrible for wind sucking.  Although he wore a collar to stop him doing this, he was worse doing it when he was eating from the ground as opposed to having his bucket on the stable door and therefore at raised level. Having said all of this I don't go as far as to take my feeding stands away with me and so if I'm staying away from home the dogs will either eat from the floor or I just hold the bowl for them, but the latter is more to prevent them pushing the bowl all around someone elses floor. I don't recommend to anyone to feed either way as there is no longer any true evidence that either way helps avoid bloat and I do think its each to their own BTW they will all adopt different postures when they stoop because of the way they are constructed and that goes for dogs of the same breed weima Forgot to say that i feed on the floor & always have done. My vet does the same too Greyghost I used to feed Abbie at a height 12 years ago.  She had a torsion at age 1.  I changed her to feeding on the floor when she was about 6ish and it felt really weird She always gulped her food and her sides would suck in so I had to give it to her in two goes so she could get a breath in sometime I still feed on the floor but as the dog gets older and the old legs start to wobble a bit I might just raise it slightly. Lisa I feed from raised bowls purely from the thought that they look more comfortable eating that way.  However, their meat and bones they have in the mornings they eat from the floor.  I think it is just down to personal preference rather than a scientific fact. Yes Ben, you have far too much time on your hands!! Mike Lisa wrote: I think it is just down to personal preference rather than a scientific fact. No! No! No! No! Science is only as good as the last study and scientific opinion will always change as new hypotheses are tested and either found to be wanting or found to be correct. I know it is easy to dismiss all science in this day and age as irrelevant, everyone knows that scientific studies can prove anything and usually prove what the person paying for them wants, right? Unfortunately whilst the media loves to give this impression (especially for things that are predictions e.g. climate change) the reality is far from this. Human knowledge IS advancing at an astonishing pace, we do discard outdated ideas that don't have evidence to back them up, it is called progress. The Purdue study on bloat is the single biggest (in terms of numbers of dogs tracked) and longest study on bloat carried out (and unfortunately due to the fact that there is no real money to be made by the drug companies or the feed makers it is likely to remain the biggest study. The reason it stopped was that the money ran out, simple as that). It found (IIRC) that using raised feed bowls was one of the single biggest risk factors in regards to bloat (IIRC depth of chest to width ratio, effected close family members and age where the things in front of it) NOT Using raised food bowls is the easiest thing an individual can do to reduce the risk of bloat. Unfortunately feeding from the floor won't stop your dog bloating, just reduce the risk. Another (high?) risk factor is the speed at which your dog eats, the slower the better. I am really sorry if this post comes across as overly patronising or rude but I spent a long time conversing with Larry Glickman (the lead author of the studies) and he eventually persuaded me that feeding on the floor was the right thing to do (at the time we fed from raised food bowls as well and I had a real struggle persuading myself and Kath that changing was the right thing to do, it felt seriously wrong!) I might be able to dig the old emails out where he explained how they structured the studies and why most of the criticisms of it weren't valid but it was a long time ago now (IIRC I posted most of his messages on the Weimaraner forum 3 or 4 years ago so they might be lurking in the archives somewhere?) Once again sorry if I've offended anyone. And although I have quoted Lisa at the begining of this post this isn't aimed at her personally. edited: to add the word NOT weima Mike wrote: Once again sorry if I've offended anyone. And although I have quoted Lisa at the begining of this post this isn't aimed at her personally. I don't think you have offended anyone or being rude. Claire Agreed with Claire, you've not offended anyone Mike, far from it I would say!  I wouldn't mind seeing that information you refer to though.  I am not opposed to feeding from the floor, but right now my gut instinct is to feed from stands based on what I see when my dogs eat from the floor and based on my previous horse experience.  As you know, I have had one of my dogs bloat and it was a hurrendous experience so if feeding from the floor is the way to go and the information you have helps me to believe that then that is what I will do. I wonder what argument the other people will have, those who have fed from raised stands for years and never had a dog suffer bloat. I wonder if its just shere luck or if its down to the raised stands Suspect we will never know for sure althrey Mike wrote: It found (IIRC) that using raised feed bowls was one of the single biggest risk factors in regards to bloat Using raised food bowls is the easiest thing an individual can do to reduce the risk of bloat. and he eventually persuaded me that feeding on the floor was the right thing to do is there a typo of sorts in there? or have i just misunderstood what you are trying to say? T Mike Should read: Not using raised food bowls is the easiest thing an individual can do to reduce the risk of bloat. Have gone back and edited it. I proof read that post three times and still missed that.... Lisa I'm not offended at all Mike! What I meant by that comment was that we keep hearing about studies saying one thing and then another study saying something completely different.  From this it would then leave people still uncertain whether to use raise bowls or not. That is when personal preference came into it meaning for example Claire saying she felt comfortable using a raised bowl before. I know that bloat is down to many other things as well as the bowl being raised and that is one reason why I feed raw.  It takes them longer to eat and chew their bones. I would also be interested to see the information you have.  You have no reason to apologise Mike,  when certain issues are important to you, you feel it right to make people aware, I feel the same way about Natural feeding etc. It looks as if it should be more natural and comfortable if they are raised but then maybe if that was the case they would lie down if they weren't?? Claire Who knows Ben !  Are there enough studies done and enough african wild dogs being monitored to know just exactly what goes on in the wild ?  And their diet is VERY different to the domestic dog BenB only because they can't use tin-openers. Claire DesO'Neile I read a study, some time ago, made by the animal welfare arm of the British Armed Forces into incidence of bloat in their guard dogs. They could not tie down the incidence to the method of feeding but they altered their feeding pattern to just prior to the working period. They felt happier having the dog watched once it had been fed and the easiest way to do that was to feed it just before work and it would be scrutinised for the next eight hours. They prefered not to leave the dog unattended after feeding. Although the study group prefered to work a dog on an empty stomach the worries about bloat over rid those concerns. Most of the dogs in the study were German Shepherds. My personal experience of the condition is one Weim., fed raised, that died and one pointer, fed on the ground, that died so my opinion is divided between the two. Currently all my dogs are fed dog food from bowls on the ground or are fed tripe by hand usually with them standing erect on their two hind legs. I will continue with this until I have an increased incidence rate and will only change if the current thinking suggests a change at that time. This is one of those dog conditions that deserve some consideration but once you have made up your mind you can't really afford to be like Lot's Wife, looking over your shoulder all the time. tashap if you were going based on antelope a downed carcus of that size would have areas of raised and low meat... I still think its something to do with chemicals and dog design rather than food bowls Mike Quote: Michael, The concern raised regarding the scientific merits of our study are unfounded as are the results pertaining to the use of raised food bowls.  Here is exactly what we found: Based on this finding, the risk of a dog with a raised food bowl developing GDV during the study was 2.17 times greater when compared with large dogs not using raised food bowls. When we just looked at the Giant Breed dogs, the elevation in risk for dogs using raised food bowls was 1.99 times greater when compared with giant dogs not using raised food bowls. The person making the criticism is obviously unfamiliar with the use of incidence rates to look at risk.  Such rates are NOT skewed by having a large number of dogs using raised food bowls. As you can see in our study, of the large breed dogs 264 of 889 dogs or 29.7% were using raised food bowls at the time of our study.  For giant breed dogs this proportion was 401 of 742 dogs or  54.0%. There were really too many breeds (n=11) to break these numbers down further, since the numbers got too small. We feel confident from this study in saying that using a raised food bowl increases a dog's risk of bloating by about 100% or two-fold.  To me this is a very large increase and reason enough not to elevate the food bowl for breeds of dogs already at higher risk of bloat. Larry Probably the most interesting bit of that email isn't the fact that the absolute numbers of dogs that bloated has doubled in the raised food bowl group but that the rate of bloating has gone up 3% (18/625x100=2.8%) to 15% (40/264x100=15%) The simple difference of raising your food bowl means your dog is 5 times more likely to bloat than if fed on the floor, all other things being equal. Even though the likelihood of your dog bloating in any year is low (although it increases with age) it seems sensible that lowering the dogs food to the floor and finding means of slowing them eating down (both relatively easy to do) are easy measures that anyone can do to reduce the likelihood of bloat. Mike Quote: Thirdly, am I right in saying that from the results you gave below the incidence of bloat over a five year period was 15% in the case of raised food stands and 3% in the non-raised food stand, a five fold increase? Which to my mind is even more clear cut than the population size affected being double. (Please excuse me if I have misunderstood! Stat?s were never my strong point) This is correct for all of the large breed dogs like the Weimaraners.  To me these numbers are very impressive in terms of the absolute magnitude (eg the large number of dogs that bloat each year), as well as the difference in incidcence of bloat in dogs that eat from raised food bowls versus those that eat at ground level.  I am sure there are some people who will try to explain away these findings, but I am convinced they are real.  We were recently challenged by a food company that makes raised food bowls but when a judge saw the numbers, he quickly dismissed the case. This second quote is the reply I received when asked about the conclusions I drew from his initial email. Greyghost My personal experience (11 years ago) was that I was feeding at a height.  She had her normal (dry) meal early evening.  She still looked hungry (doh!) so I gave her a bonio and then another one a bit later.  All that dried stuff made her thirsty. She had a secret supply of water in a pot round the corner of the house (rainwater).  My theory is that the weight of all this water tipped her stomach.  The vet said he syphoned off quite a lot before the op.  She lived thankfully..... I remember somebody saying once that they fed their dog some pasta because they had run out of food.  They actually saw the stomach turn with the weight of it. munstyman Unlike Ben I've not got alot of time on my hands But as I'm stuck in the middle of my tax return I'm easily distracted Mine are fed from the floor in bowls, it was interesting to see individual reasoning for both sides of this debate, for my two pennies worth, I think that bloat is more related to the speed of consumption and weight of food and its constituents rather than the height you feed it from. ( "wild dogs have to work for their food and can not consume any quantity of `concentrate' very quickly, they also would have a more toned musculature around the stomach due to their pack behaviours of carrying food back to the non hunting family members. Their drinking behaviour and timing is also different ) Dogs are not herbivores and should not be compared in this respect, herbivores are grazers and are therefore built to consume food from the floor, however, again not concentrates and smaller regular quantities rather than in a concentrated period, thus bloat in herbivores occurs mostly due to impaction followed by gaseous fermentation and expansion, rather than torsion. An interesting aside is the various methods ( and contraptions) we use to slow down `gulpy feeders'. I found the cheapest and easiest method is to find a food the the dog does not particularily like, ( mine are not to keen on chicken and liver mix) and mix a little of that in with the food that they gulp, in trying to pick out the best bits the dogs consumption is slowed dramatically Of course this doesn't help if you have a `dustbin' of a dog Peter BenB This has proved more interesting than I thought it might and I am pleased that it has not only produced various responses but other people have seriously done research on it. I'm off down the garden to eat worms and while away some more time! DesO'Neile I thinks it was Mike who suggested thet it is relatively easy to slow down the eating rate of a dog. Other than feed four or five time a day I can't see how you would do it and even splitting up the feeds won't change the rate of eating just the amount of food in the stomach at each feeding time. My pointers will devour one and a half litres of dry dog food in about two minutes and usually at one go irrespective of how long it will take them. Greyghost Other suggestions I have seen for slowing down the eating rate is to spread the food out onto a baking sheet.  Spread it around the garden (weather permitting).  Soak dry food and put it in kongs; hand feed. I think if you feed a dog four or five times a day you may end up with a dog pooping as often! Abbie was always a very fast eater and I had to fill the bowl twice so she could take a breather in between.  Her sides would suck in as she ate. Helen I feed mine on the ground.  The only time I've fed in a raised bowl was my spaniel, who used to inhale her food.  Someone at the time, suggested I raise her food to slow her down, which surprisingly, it did.  She's now an old girl so doesn't hoover it up so she's back on the ground. Regarding the wild dogs...they wouldn't be hoovering up dried food, would they?  They are tearing flesh off at a slower pace? Someone suggested I put a tennis ball in my springers bowl to slow her down - she just picked the tennis ball up and dropped it! Helen DesO'Neile Personal experience suggests that it has nothing to do with rate of consumption as in the last twenty years I must have had as many as one hundred dogs live at my place and they have all consumed food at an astonishing, some of them don't even come up for air, and there has yet to be a case of bloat. My one dog that died was at another kennel at the time and other than the fact that it was fed on the ground I know little of the details of what happened that day but Gus was no different in his attitude to food when at home. Helen Do you think it's just in some dogs genes that they are going to suffer bloat?  There isn't anything wrong with the gut of dogs that do bloat, is there? Helen Alkemist In our experience our old boy (aged 12) had torsion and the vet said the food had set like cement in his stomach and had to be dug out. It was dry food and he had access to water. He also had, apparently a spleen that was not normal, so at the same time the vet removed his spleen. He lived for another 12 months, but it was not trouble free. We were using feeding stands and it didn't make the slightest difference. So the feeding stands are no longer used, we just put the dogs dinner bowl on a small step, or the kitchen floor. We also try to feed raw wherever we can, but our dog gets everything, dried food, scraps, veg, fish, raw chicken wings, raw meat, eggs and shells. To slow down a fast eater, I had it suggested to me once that you put an upturned bowl in the dogs normal bowl, so that you get a ring of food around the bowl. Worth a try but don't know the logic behind it. Nina Mike Had a real struggle to find these but eventually found them with a time machine These are most of the original results from the Purdue study. Click to download file Click to download file Click to download file Click to download file Click to download file Click to download file Mike A good summary of the above: Quote: Old Thoughts: What We Used to Think About Bloat Over the years, breeders, owners and veterinarians have developed a body of lore about what causes bloat and how it can be prevented. Here are some of those things which we now know are correct, i.e. bloat is caused by too much exercise on a full stomach. Overloading the stomach. Swallowing air when eating.  We used to think that bloat could be prevented or reduced by Wetting dry kibble so that it won't swell in the stomach.  Raising the food dish above floor level.  Weight, breed size, the ratio of the depth of the thorax to its width and stress were not significantly associated with the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. In addition, several measures that have long been recommended to reduce the risk of bloat were found to have no effect. Factors That Make Difference - These measures, long been thought to reduce the risk of bloat, were found to have no effect: Restricting exercise before or after eating Restricting water intake before and/or after meals Feeding two or more meals per day Moistening dry kibble before feeding Factors That DO Make A Difference These four (4) factors ARE associated with an increased risk of bloat in large breed dogs 1)Raising the food dish more than doubled the risk for bloat 2)Speed of eating -Dogs rated by their owners as very fast eaters had a 38% increased risk of bloat 3)Age: The study found that risk increased by 20% with each year of age. Owners should be more alert to early signs of bloat as their dogs grow older. 4)Family History: Having a first-degree relative (parent, sibling or offspring) that had bloated increased a dog's risk by 63%. Conclusions The Purdue research team concluded these are the things you can do to prevent bloat: The strongest recommendation to prevent GVD (bloat) should be to not breed a dog that has a first degree relative that has had bloat. This places a special responsibility on an owner to inform the breeder should their dog bloat. 1)Do not raise the feeding dish 2)SLOW the dog's speed of eating. A future report from the research team will provide data on dietary factors and how they may or may not be associated with bloat risk