Genre: Forum

Note: Please bear in mind that whilst this topic does canvass opinions, it is not a fight club. You may disagree with other posters but we do ask you please to stick to our Talk Guidelines and to be civil. We don't allow personal attacks or troll-hunting . Do please report any. Thanks, MNHQ. To think that the British work is insidious (132 Posts) Please click the 'Recommend' button below to confirm that you would like to post this thread to your facebook wall: If you have previously recommended this thread, you should see a tick / check mark on the recommend button. Click the tick to undo the recommendation (the tick may appear to change to a cross as you do this.) If you added a comment with your recommendation, you will need to delete that from your facebook wall separately. I don't understand. It's about team work; being part of the team; playing the game. Doing a good job, being reliable. What exactly do you mean. I don't think I have every come across what you are inferring. I must admit to being a bit shocked in moving to a city which is dominated by a particular industry, which is itself male-dominated. I know a lot of jobs are allocated on the basis of who you know, not what you know, but they actually turn down decent employees here on the basis that they will show up their cronies. Happens again and again. And its not my field, so I have no vested interest. Depends. I think that especially in the public sector this can be an issue. Can be very cliquey. Most promotions are not based on merit IME but through preventing people access to all relevant information resulting in them not having a chance ... What is going on in the Department of Transport is scandalous IMO, it is not the ordinary civil servants carrying out the work, it is the top who is at fault. The underlings only do what the top wants (or what they think the top wants), otherwise they will be out during the next reorganisation (tend to be many in the Civil Service). So it is the top they should get rid off, small chance of that happening, it is rather blame the messenger as usual. That's why nothing will really change/improve. Just power games. That's why I held out when I was made redundant and did some temping until my perfect dynamic, all-working-for-the-same-thing, no bullshit owner and employees small-but-rapidly growing company job came along. I love it. Never worked harder, but never felt more of a round peg in a round hole. I loathed the dead men's shoes, hidden agenda, greasy pole mentality of other places I have worked. Not all large companies, either. And the acceptance of mediocrity. Bleugh. A good manager recognises that everyone has something valuable to give and finds a way to enable them to give it. Poor management looks after friends. I have experienced both and like to think I am the former. Hard to know what you should do on so little information but please don't think there is anything wrong with being the shy one. An effective team has a mix of people, not all loud or all shy, but it takes a good manager to make the most of that team. Quiet and brilliant is fantastic! Well, if you happen to be in the Civil Service, then you have to lick arse ... It is not about doing the best job you can, it is not about being truthful, factual, integrity. It is about finding out what your superiors want and giving them that bending the information to suit their view even if totally incorrect. And of course, always be very nice to your superiors and try not to be too nice to the people underneath you as this may be seen as weak. You can earn a lot, a lot money this way plus a good pension, but it does involve selling your soul. Teaching won't pay me enough. I love what I do but for the lack of recognition. Just today saw a colleague (an utter twat) get promoted over me. I am better at everything. Except that I am not in the in crowd. Sometimes, if there is an opportunity you have to move upwards and outwards rather than staying in the same place for too long and getting stuck there. You can then move back in at a more senior level. I think teaching is quite well paid these days (have just started my 9th year) but I am amused by the concept that it is free from all the things described in this thread. Come to my school and see the politics in action! Doesn't teaching have any of these issues? The NHS certainly does Survival strategies? Well, remember it's only work and make sure you have a life outside. If you can't change it, try to figure out if it's likely to change within a time frame you can cope with, maybe through restructuring - this happens in the NHS all the time, sometimes for the better in terms of the management environment and sometimes not. If not, plan an escape strategy to something better. Above all remember there is nothing intrinsically wrong with being the quiet brilliant one 'A good manager recognises that everyone has something valuable to give and finds a way to enable them to give it. ' Yes. yes. I also think many managers forget to do the basic stuff; saying positive things; giving bad news face to face; all the simple good manners. They treat their employees as they would not treat even the most distant member of their family, and then wonder why relationships with and between the people they spend all day with are shite. One woman in our team is an absolute workhorse; a colleague and teamworker par excellence (sorry, i believe in teamwork). But she doesn't take any shit, our manager is scared of her and now avoids giving her any positive feedback. She is going to walk out of our team on maternity leave, we are going to struggle so much without her, and she is not even going to look back Yy public sector, crappy people getting promoted, and then when they're not surprisingly crappy n the new job, moved into another new job, until eventually a super fancy job is created with big money and no actual responsibilities so they can't do any more damage. Because you can't actually sack them, can you. I also don't think teamwork involves carrying people weaker than you necessarily. It's about pulling together, accepting differences and enjoying commonality, and doing your level best and working with integrity and decency. Can you tell I like my job and feel privileged to have my colleagues and managers? Silibilimili, you say teaching wont pay you enough. I dont actually know what ordinary teachers get paid,,but they are not on strike,so I sort of assume they are getting a decentish wage. Which begs the question,and I dont mean to be rude,but why do you need to earn more than what I assume is a pretty average salary for the country. Do you have large overheads? Do you need to work in a work environment,that probably means you earn more,which probably means the people working there are more competitive,which probably means it feels like some of them would sell their granny? Actually this post is coming across to me as a bit harsh,and for all I know could be complete rubbish.But I cant be bothered to redo it,so hope you do not take offence. That's the thing sili; and the bad people know it. The world is full of brilliant people who do not get promoted. It's not enough to do your job well, even brilliantly. You have to put other people down, compare their work unfavourably to yours and kiss ass, even publicly, shamefully. amillionyears - I expenct that Silibilimili is actually working hard, good at her job and wants some recognition for a change. Rather than seeing not very clever and possibly someone not really pulling his weight being promoted above her. amillion , your post is good. Don't worry. It's not even the money. By should I give up something I love because of these people? There has to be some tricks of the trade in can learn to 'play the game' and not compromise my morals/integrity? I am waiting to see what Silibilimili says,but now that my kids are older,one of the first things we look at when they apply for jobs,is the ethos of the company. If we dont like the look of it,we dont apply. obviously now that the op is working there,not such an easy situation. Also,to me,what we do or dont do in life,is a series of priorities. To me,work culture is quite a high priority,so if Sili doesnt like it there,she needs to look around for companies that would hopefully appreciate her. I don't know "a million years". Go in, get there on time, don't rock the boat, be nice to people, be honest, don't shaft anyone, protect colleagues when necessary, follow procedure where necessary, bend procedure where one can. Agree generally and if things need changing do it incrementally, trying to get people on side first. amillion , I did not realise the culture is like this before I joined. All was well for a whole while. Things started going belly up when i did not want to do the 12hr days to meet deadlines for nothing jn return etc. it's hard to choose an 'ethical' company. How do you know what the culture is like?! Months on end for nothing on end is harsh. Was that in your contract? Did the financially reward you properly for that? Standing outside. a.what is the dress code,important if you end up having an interview there. b.if you stand outside in the morning,do the workers arrive on time? c.do they look happy do be there? d.are they sloppily dressed. e.what sort of people are they? f.do their cars look like yours at all. g.very importantly,do they look as if you will fit with them h.if it is the evening,how do they look now? i.even go into the building casualy for a brief look round.How does it feel.What is the receptionist like. j.do you want to work on an industrial estate etc k.what is the transport system like there All this helps to give a glimpse of what the company is actually like and whether you think you may enjoy working there. I understand what you mean but in my experience those who claimed about cliques and conspiracies and agendas and corruption were paranoid dick heads. I spend 10 years working with someone who complained that the reason she wasn't being promoted was because her ideas were too 'forward thinking' or too 'out there'. She was being held back because people were threatened. She was a knob. People loathed her. There are two reasons you are not getting on at work. One is the place is corrupt and full of cronies, the other is you are the problem It's not you silibili, in the sense of you are crap, you are no good. It's you in the sense of, you do not blow your own trumpet enough and are too nice to the people below you and not creepy enough to the people above. It's ludicrous to sggest this is paranoid. It's the way it is! Yes agree with zoomeister: stop expecting people at work to be your friends and to like you. Locate someone above you who is clearly headed for higher things. Latch on to them; suck up to them. You might think it's cringingly obvious. Not to them. Hang on to their coat tails, for a start. Diss your colleagues to them if necessary but in a subtle way, back-handed compliments for example. Never bitch outright; don't smile too much; be very cool; never apologise. Sili: i'm like you but towards the end of my career, which has been fine, reasonable, decent pay so I haven't minded. But because i don't mind so much personally (which let's be honest really can cloud things) I have a very clear view of what happens in my workplace and in the other offices linked to it. I would say it's got about ten per cent to do with how good you are at your job. That's it. I think you would either have to change, or make yourself content with the way things are. Change or make myself content. I know. So hard. I don't think I can do either. As for slating off colleagues, not in my nature. It makes you look bad in the long run. I am not saying I am perfect. However, I see incompetent people going waaaay above and think, 'it's not fair!!' I recent went from being a contractor to staff so here is what the problem is. To put up with all the work politics. But just made me wonder, I can't be alone. There must be 'good' people out there that cope somehow. Or even get to the top. How? That's all. Maybe it's time I went back to earning money again than having a career. The apparently good people who get to the top have ALL had their moments of ruthlessness behind the scenes. The truly good get half way there, director rather than VP, sidelined into a nice job in training and so on. But slating off colleagues YES it looks bad if you are bitchy. It's not about being bitchy. It's positioning yourself above them in conversation and appraisals, explaining how you helped them achieve something when they couldn't do it, making sure you get the credit, "helpfully" suggesting to someone they need training in an area because they'd then be really good at it. You don't have to lie. Bosses want people who can be like them ie hard. I have worked for people who haven't been ruthless or evil. Ok so they were truly genious or minor royalty, but have been fairly decent human beings. These were old school boys (very few women - who did tend to be unpleasant) though. The new generation tend to be slimeballs whod sell their own granny for a profit. I think for women it's a sexism thing - women have to be better, harder, faster, stronger to get the same job as a man. They have to PROVE they aren't going to melt. It's unfair. The old school boys could afford to be nice - they had a job whatever they did,and f they fucked up one of Dad's friends in the foreigno office would find a little spot fo rhim. Or her. such an interesting and enlightening thread.I have been sat all morning thinking about work problems and getting stressed. like everyone I have watched others bitch,kiss ass and then get promoted when they are generally lazy or not great at their jobs and have been frustrated that my hard work and achievements has never seemed to get me anywhere. this thread helps me to accept that this is business and I must either choose to be like others and move to the top or just do enough to ensure my working day is as stress free as poss so I can enjoy time out of work I may be broke in the meantime but hey one day I will run my own business where things are different. .s.if there are any business owners out there who require hard working and extremely capable employees who will fit into their ethical, honest and truly rewarding team environment please pm me! It should be a lesson really - we've all thought "how can Boss X not SEE how much of a suck-up employee Y is being. It's so fake!" Because they can't. They're on the receiving end and they are also playing the game. It depends on the culture of the office. I have known unqualified secretaries scamper up the greasy pole very very quickly (very naively I thought it was because she must have been talented ans well-liked). When she left all the men talked about how she wanted to sleep with them all - then I was told that she was having an affair with the boss. She was very self promoting 'look at meeee, I'm fabulous!!' Very self confident but didn't have a tufty really. Emperors new clothes syndrome! Most places I have work have had a bad reputation in the industry for being really horrible places to work. One place had a reputation for being great and I loved it - there was such a lack of politics! I go into quite a few organisations as part of my job and it's amazing the variety of business cultures that exist. Few I would want to be part of too. For me slef employment or small business works best. front , I have seen that too here. It's natures way. It's a part of office life. The sexual tensions, prettier women doing better than the uglier ones, the taller men doing better than the shorter ones. That's Darwinian theory. I just need to be more thick skinned and less sensitive, more controlled I suppose. It is going to be tricky? Any women out there who are emotional and are doing well in their careers? This thread has indeed been insightful for me too. Thank you all for the contribution. I tend to think that those who deny it have done it ..so they see others as whingers and moaners rather than "actors". The thinking goes, well I did it, why can't you instead of moaning on. And I've been promoted, so I can't possibly be incompetent or a bad manager. It's a mindset, and you have to buy it! By whinging and moaning, quite frankly I don't blame you, I've done it myself, but it doesn't buy you promotion. It basically says "I am unhappy but impotent". That's not the impression you want to give. And by those who deny it, i mean those people who say, this does not happen, you are paranoid. Yes, it does, it's almost universal, and you are not paranoic. People who say that have climbed the greasy pole or are doing it and will see others as weak, impotent, whingers and so on. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism - noticing that something isn't working and suggesting an improvement or a better way of working. But some people - and I am not suggesting that this is you btw, I don't know you - really do just moan. About everything. Even the stuff that clearly can't be changed. Even the stuff that everyone else manages perfectly well with. They are often the same ones who won't work 5mins overtime, with a 'they don't do anything for me, so why should I do anything for them' attitude. They are often also heard complaining about colleagues in a bitter way. Who is going to promote someone like that, someone that they essentially don't like and don't want to spend more time working with than they absolutely have to? There's usually a pool of people to choose from, and enthusiastic competence wins every time. ade , agree. I have all the good qualities you mention. Enthusiastic, technically competent, moaner but do try and change or influence things, which makes me quiet and direct and do not suck up. So do tend to piss people off by my great 'communication' skills. How do I get out of this quandary or my predicament. Surely it's the work that matters and not the other bullshit surely. Who would you rather have in your team at the end of the day? Someone hi gets the job done or someone who agrees with everything you say and does mediocre? I certainly wouldn't want someone who agreed with everything I said, but someone who gets the job done with a smile on their face and doesn't rattle the feathers of their colleagues unnecessarily. There are two words that you have used to describe yourself on this thread that would concern me - 'emotional' and 'direct'. IME people who describe themselves in this way can often come across as a little self absorbed, maybe rude (and you may not be like that at all, have just heard colleagues describing themselves as 'direct' and I've thought 'no, you are tactless and a bit rude'). I think it sounds like your communication skills are your issue, perhaps make a big effort for a few months and see where it gets you. If you genuinely don't think that you are doing anything wrong at all, go and see your line manager and make it clear that you are looking for extra responsibilities/promotion, and ask what you need to do to make that happen. It depends what organization and what industry. Its certainly true that a lot of "desirable" industries (journalism, investment banking, advertising, charity sector, civil service) are riddled with cronyism and basically its hard to get in without contacts and impossible past a certain point without a large degree of arse-licking. But in all honesty I don't think Britain is worse than most places. A good friend of mine emigrated to Italy and then moved back because she had totally lost faith in the possibility that her children would ever get good jobs because they weren't Italian/didn't have right family connections. Britain isn't the meritocracy it likes to think it is but anecdotally I think a lot of the "latin" economies are far, far worse. I don't think all industries are like this though. Definetely do something. My Dad is a lovely man but spent 30 + years in an office that was back stabbing and very political - he was a work horse but found himself blamed for other mistakes. He was made reduant 55 + and is now a very bitter person. Having said that he has the opposite of charm - he makes the most innocent remarks and people take offense its not obvious why. My first work place was like this as well - I did the bare minimum amount of time and left for somewhere better and got more money with it. ques agree and can relate to all that you say. However, I thought we were meritocratic. We definitely are not. That's what I can't get my wad around. And comparing to the worst of the lot and feeling good is not really what I want to do either. Another problem is that none of us really know what other people think of us and that can vary from person to person. Eg you think I am direct someone else thinks I am rude. I work ith someone who thinks she is really hard working; I think she is a lazy cow who spends too much time making everything into a drama instead of just getting on with it. But who is right? You say you are emotional.What sorts of things have you got emotional at work about,that maybe other work colleagues didnt get emotional over? What changes have you suggested be implemented that have not been taken up. I think you said you moan.Have fellow colleagues commented on this. Are you British? Have you worked abroad and are now working in the UK,and have suggested your work place does some things that you have gleaned from working overseas. What age are you? Dont answer any if this if you dont want to. Might they think you may want to start a family soon,so are possibly discriminating against you. Do you meet up with them socially at all. Do you say to them from time to time that you feel like leaving? ooh,coming across as arrogant and unapproachable. If that is what people see and think,even though it is not true,that is not going to help you at all. I you said you didnt want to change character. It sounds like you need to change the public perception of yourself so they can understand and see the real you. The classic book for this thread is "How to win friends and influence people". I havent read all of it,but I think you would find it useful if you havent read it already.