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157-10002-10105
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Date: 09/30/93
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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
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RECORD NUMBER: 157-10002-10105
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TRANSCRIPT
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ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
FROM:
TO :
TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HARVEY
DATE: 06/25/75
PAGES: 62
SUBJECTS :
ZRRIFLE
CASTRO
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ROSELLI, JOHNNY
OPERATION MONGOOSE
BISSELL, RICHARD
ASSASSINATION
KENNEDY, JOHN F.
THE PRESIDENT
QJWIN
MAFIA
SILVER, ARNOLD
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T
RESTRICTIONS: REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS : P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 09/30/93
OPENING CRITERIA :
Box 245
Folder 13
COMMENTS :
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counterespionage for a brief period against the Japanese and
the Italians and the Russians in '41. Then during most of the
3 War, against the Germans, and then beginning in early '45 until
4
5
6
7
the middle of '47 against the Soviet service again.
Mr. Schwarz. And then in 1947, did you join the CIA as
head of the Soviet Intelligence Branch?
Mr. Harvey. That is correct.
8
Mr. Schwarz.
Is that also counterespionage?
9
Mr. Harvey.
Yes, it was.
Mr. Schwarz.
And then between 1947 and 1952, you worked
10
11
12
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14
on Soviet counterespionage and certain special operations in
the Department for Plans, is that right?
Mr. Harvey. Well, that is correct. It was a particular
command and staff responsibility on communications intelligence
and for a period of, I would think probably eight to ten
16 months, I headed a planning staff, along with that.
15
17
Mr. Schwarz. In 1952, did you go to Berlin as Chief of
18 Station for the CIA?
Mr. Harvey. I did.
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Mr. Harvey. Until the end of 1959.
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20
Mr. Schwarz.
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And were you there until 1959?
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Mr. Schwarz. I understand, Mr. Harvey, that you had some
rather substantial accomplishments there, such as (the Berlin
Tunnels f
Could you just very succinctly describe the Berlin Tunnel
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operation and then move on?
Mr. Harvey. Well, very briefly, that is an operation that
Berlin
Rollett and I conceived some time before I went to
Senator Tower. You and who?
Mr. Harvey. Frank Rollett, who for many years was one of
the, if not the most, knowledgeable senior officer in the
0
And one of the reasons I went to Berlin was to attempt to
10 mount this operation.
11
In substance, what it amounted to was setting up a fairly
12 complex cover within a cover installation: in West Berlin and
gra tunnel approximately 500 meters
13
14 across the sector bound
well underground,
tapping into three main u
lephone, telegraph and teleprinter cables.
1
16
had
und
these
17 which were
the
scuit between the
18
mand, headqua rs of the So
Group in Bar
and the
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tlying commands in Germany
20
We a
also tap
mber of
OW
uits in
21
den Frund and Unte
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a number of i
Linden in East Berli
s which unfortunately were not
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lly readabl
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Senator Tower. Were not what?
25
Mr. Harvey. Were not readable.
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Mr
•
Schwarz.
I have been told, Mr. Harvey
is this not
2
correct
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that you not only conceived the program but helped
dig the tunnel?
Mr. Harvey. I did.
Mr. Schwarz. In 1959, did you become Chief of the Foreign
Intelligence Staff Division D?
7
Mr. Harvey.
That is correct.
00
8
9
10
11
12
Mr. Schwarz. Now is Division D a division of the CIA which
is responsible for communications intelligence?
Mr. Harvey. That is also correct.
Mr. Schwarz. But part
Mr. Harvey. But I would like to clarify it, if may,
13 Mr. Schwarz. It was the division of the clandestine services,
14 which was the focal point and was responsible for primarily two
15 things: the procurement of communications intelligence through
utiliza
the control and uti
1
nal and clandes
17 tion
the product of
18
19
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We had nothing to do beyond that with the general sort of
20 research and analysis use which was handled in Separate
21 COMINT shop in the what I believe was the DDI, Deputy Director
22 Intelligence.
Mr. Schwarz. Did Staff D include within its responsibili-
24 ties
he surreptitious obtaii
Of code inf
de information?
25
Mr. Harvey. Yes, in two ways:
complete control and
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1 coordination of any such efforts, approval and assessment of the
2 security risk, and also in the direct procurement through
10
3
operational means abroad, but not in this country.
Mr. Schwarz. And by operational, you mean entering into
5 buildings
6
Mr. Harvey. Surreptitious entry,
Surreptitious entry, 
intercepting couriers
7
monitoring of communications,
tterback from
00
8
would
12
Mr. Harvey. Yes, he did.
13
Mr. Schwarz.
At some point, did
14
0
10
microwave that type of thing. Clandestine monito
be covered as well.
Mr. Schwarz. Now, did a man call Justin O'Donnell work
11 for you in Staff D?
the Plax in Fall
1900
O'Donnell recount to
you a conversation concerning Patrice Lumumba?
15
Mr. Harvey.
Yes.
16
Mr. Schwarz.
Would you state what he said to you?
17
Mr. Harvey.
Briefly,. O'Donr 11 came to me and said
18
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1272 2110
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that he had been approached by Richard Bissell, who was then
Deputy Director for Plans, to undertake an operation in the
Congo, one of the objectives of which was the elimination of
Patrice Lumumba. He also told me that he had declined to
undertake this assignment.
Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr Bissell subsequently have a conversa-
tion with you in which he also recounted the fact that he had
25 requested Mr. 10 Donnell to undertake such an operation?
24
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of assassination is obviously a two-pronged subject, ours and
2 theirs. We spent countless hours over the years trying to
10
3
5
determine the parameters of how far the Soviet service was
4 willing to go. This was partly a question of assessment;
this was partly a question, to put it just as bluntly,
of self-protection.
6
7
8
9
I will try to summarize what I think are fair conclusions.
In the field of political assassination, although I cannot
document this by evidence, I have no question but what the
10 Soviet service has, does, and will continue to use the tool of
assassination to accomplish political gains inside and outside
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and I'm over-
of the USSR. In the intelligence field, I think you have to
make a distinction, the distinction roughly
simplifying this slightly but a distinction into perhaps
three classes.
One, their own ethnics or nationals. Secondly, indigenous
agents of third countries.And thirdly, the recognized official
staff officers of other intelligence services.
During the seven years that I spent in Berlin, which was
the longest continuous period that I was exposed in depth to
Soviet Executive Action, we lost a great many Russians, a great
22 many Germans, a certain number of Czechs, Poles and other
21
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24
25
nationalities.
Mr. Schwarz.
When you say you lost Russians, you mean
25 Russians who were working with the United States?
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Mr. Schwarz.
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Anyway, it exists, as a combination.
Mr. Harvey. In other words, if you want to put it in just
these blunt terms, it would have been a lot easier for the KGB
to assassinate me in West Berlin than it would have been for
me to assassinate my opposite number in East Berlin, in the
Soviet Embassy across the border ar
Mr. Schwarz. In describing the Soviets, you distinguish
8 between political assassination, direct agents of the United
0
9
10
States, and finally the emigres and foreign nationals.
Mr. Harvey. And also well, not foreign nationals, but
11 emigres and Soviet nationals.
12
13
Mr. Schwarz. That's what I meant. Soviet nationals.
Mr. Harvey. The most merciless, the field where they are
14 the most merciless are their own defected agents, of course.
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Mr. Schwarz. Now, to your knowledge, has the United States
ever assassinated a defected agent or a third country?
Mr. Harvey. You mean an American agent who has defected
or doubled?
Mr. Schwarz. Yes
Mr. Harvey. To my personal knowledge, no.
Mr. Schwarz. What about persons who are third country
22 enemies of the United States?
23
23
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25
Mr. Harvey. No.
Mr. Schwarz. You don't know any instance of the United
States assassinating any person who is in the non-political
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1 Eyes Only basis, and the first part of this was the necessary
documentation for the authority which was later signed off on
2
10
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8
by Dick Helms as Deputy Director.
Beginning on my page 4, your middle of page 3
Mr. Schwarz. Well, just a moment. Page 1 is a cover story,
not the real story, the objectives --
Mr. Harvey. It is both.
Mr. Schwarz. But it does not recite as an objective,
assassination or assassination capability.
9
10
Mr. Harvey. No, it does not.
11
Mr. Schwarz. Instead, it cites the obtaining of code
12 and cypher materials.
13
14
15
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Mr. Harvey. Which, I would like to point out, was a
perfectly legitimate objective and was not in a sense, a cover
story except that if this project had gone so far as to the
actual recruitment of any agent for assassination or the target-
ting of any target or the mounting of any operation, it would
have been under this as a cover. But, those assets that were
spotted by QJWINN, for instance, under ZRRIFLE were also
honestly considered for possible clandestine procurement
communications intelligence outside the U.S.
maybe I'm not making this clear, it's a cover
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So it's
22
23
Mr. Schwarz.
Dual purpose.
24
Mr. Harvey.
It was a dual purpose.
25
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Mr. Schwarz. You mentioned QJWINN. Was QJWIN an agent
who you did hold in reserve for possible use in connection
3 with the Executive Action program?
10
4
Mr. Harvey. No, QJWIN is an agent that I considered for
5 possible use and used for a limited period through Arnold Silver
6
for the spotting of individuals with criminal and underworld
connections in Europe for possible multi-purpose use, none of
7
8
whom were ever advised of the use, none of whom, as far as I
personally know, were ever used.
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Mr. Schwarz.
But the multi-purpose use included as one
purpose the possible use in assassination?
Mr. Harvey.
Only the sense that had we ever been saddled
with a flat, if you will, command performance on assassination.
I might have considered the people spotted by WIN as possibil-
ities.
But, you see, before anybody that is ever spotted is
approached for any operation and particularly and please, I
don't mean to sound pedantic on this, I don't mean to- is
should be
actually approached, there is a long period of assessment,
crosschecks, so on and so forth. This particular spotting
mechanism never actually went that far, as far as I know.
I only know of one use made by QJWIN' until we terminated
him some months later, I don't remember the exact date.
It was
before I went to Rome. I know it was in connection with an
operation in the Congo that was not an assassination operation,
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and had, as far as I know, personally, at least, nothing to do
with assassination.
I have checked pages 1 and 2 and 3 and my page 4.
Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 4 through 7, in your judgment;
pages that were written by Mr. Arnold Silver?
Mr. Harvey. As a guess, I'd say they appear to be in the
same writing as these first three pages.
you?
Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 8 and 9 pages that are written by
Mr. Harvey. Well, just a moment, let me get to those.
I would also like to point out that from page 4 that
12 that is page 4, as long as it continues in the same handwriting
13
14
was not a part of this so-called Project Outline, these I
would guess were probably Arnold Silver's notes and probably
15 based, at least to an extent, on discussions he had with me,
16 and certain sort of problems and questions and principles that
I tossed out to be considered and cares to be exercised.
WARD & PAUL
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Mr.
Schwarz.
is that right?
Then pages 8 and 9 are in your handwriting,
Mr. Harvey.
Pages 8 and 9 are in my handwriting.
21
Mr. Schwarz. And at the bottom of page 8, does that
22 indicate that you had a conversation with
N
F. Silver on January
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26th?
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24
Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does.
25
Mr. Schwarz.
And is it your judgment that that is January
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26, 1961 and is about the subject of Executive Action?
Mr. Harvey. Yes, it is.
Mr. Schwarz. And it followed your conversation with Mr.
Bissell that you have recounted?
Mr. Harvey. I think probably that might be well, when
I first looked at this, I thought this, well, this has got to
7
be '62, but I am almost certain now that it is not. If this
8
9
10
11
12
13
is true, this might place the first discussion that I had with
Dick Bissell n early January and this is difficult to pinpoint
because there were several such discussions in varying degrees
of detail during the period in the spring, and very early in
'61 to the fall of '61 period, but I did find out fairly early
WE WE
on that Silver had or that Bissell had discussed the question
14 of assassination with Arnold Silver, and this discussion at
15
16
the very least, had to take place after I know Bissell already
had discussed the matter with Silver
17
18
19
20
21
Now, these two pieces of paper, well, I say two pieces of
paper, what they are from they are in my handwriting.
from a yellow pad, probably the duplicate of this that I used
to keep on my desk and just make rough notes of conversations
that I had, telephone and otherwise, with various people.
It's
22
23
classified
trash;
24
25
Once a week I would go through them and either destroy them
dictate from them, or occasionally save
them. There is no relationship between the material that
appears after the line two-thirds of the way down the page, just
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before the 26/1 AS
and the material which appears above
2
it which is tabbed SID G, tab 21.
53
Mr. Schwarz.
That would be Sid Gottlieb?
Mr.
Harvey.
Sid Gottlieb.
Mr. Schwarz.
on the 25th of January indicate you had discussion which included
Doesn't the conversation with Sid Gottlieb
7
the word bankruptcy and you felt assassination was
8
9
12
Mr. Harvey. There was a general philosophic discussion of
assassination and assassination techniques. There was also a
10 discussion on a number of other things that were of particular
11 and specific interest to the communications intelligence field
and the clandestine service's responsibilities aspects, if you
13 will, and as best I can recall this conversation, this was a
sort of an exchange of ideas and briefing session, probably
held at the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after
he either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual
Chief of TSD, which was the Technical Services Division of the
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
clandestine services.
Mr. Schwarz. Now the reference in the middle of that
conversation with Mr. Gottlieb to "Last resort beyond last
That's referring to
resort and a confession of weakness."
assassination?
Mr. Harvey. That's obviously referring to assassination.
24 That's probably what I told Sid Gottlieb my opinion on the
25 use and propriety of assassination as a technique was.
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2
10
3
of operational philosophy which I expressed to Gottlieb, that
the question then came in pure theory as to as in such cases
as, now assumptions, the example of 3 wrong, I am not really
4 sure. But the closest that I can come is that the assumptions
5
it might be desirable in a purely theoretical discussion and in
6
my opinion we were wrong.
Whether I said that to Gottlieb in
7
00
8
9
10
the words that are here, I just don't know.
Mr. Schwarz. Who were the two besides Mr. Trujillo that
make up the examples of 3?
Mr. Harvey. I presume
11
12
Lumumba and Castro.
13
14
15
22
2N
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24
25
I have no idea, but I presume
that the logical candidates at that point would have been
By: logical candidates, I mean not that
we were considering them in this discussion as logical targets
for assassination, but that these were sort of the three
people that would come to mind ;if you are going to go into this,
these are three to be considered.
"
Co
But you will notice, if I may,. Mr. Schwarz, "Framework of
Sid's job. ELINT R&D Memo. Ludford is the name of the staff
officer who worked for me in Division D at that time.
This "translating machine" was an experimental device,
done under --hoped for development by GE that I was most
interested in, because of the serious translation problem that
we had and particularly, in communications intelligence.
So you see this was not a discussion strictly within the
framework of either assassination as a specific, or assassination
16
tape 2b
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18
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as a general problem.
Mr. Schwarz. Now, the material commencing on handwritten
page 4 and commencing in the middle of page 3 of the Senator's
notes, reflects in your judgment the conversation that you had
5 with MrSilver and it is his notes about that conversation, is
6
that right?
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
Mr. Harvey. That is my best guess.
It may also, however, include his own thinking and so forth
I doubt if it includes it certainly would not include any
specific discussions, I don't think, with other officers,
7
because Arnold Silver was under specific instructions not to
discuss this as such with anybody else, at least without clearing
it with me first.
Mr. Schwarz. And he starts, for example, by talking about
"Legal, ethical, morale, operational problems" and so forth,
and that reflects the conversation you had with Mr. Silver?
Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does.
16
17
Mr. Schwarz. Down toward the end of entry 3b
www
and 3 has
18
the heading "Maximum security"
do you see that on page
19
4?
20
12 2
21
22
Mr. Harvey. Yes, I see it.
Mr. Schwarz. There is a sentence which reads as follows
two sentences, which I should read into the record, three
23
23
sentences.
24
"Within Kubark"
now, is that the CIA?
25
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ان
4
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crossed in this document.
Mr. Schwarz.
Mr. Harvey.
Mr. Schwarz.
One way or the other?
That's right. One way or the other.
Your note has a report to the DCI, the
January 26th reference, which reads in the first line AS
That is Arnold Silver, I takė it?..
Mr. Harvey. Yes, I'm sure that's Arnold Silver
Mr.
9
matter.
10
11
12
Schwarz. Then it appears to say f-a-n-f-o-r-n DCI
What does that mean?
Mr. Harvey. I am not sure. The closest I could come to
that is a fairly illogical Fanfani, and Fanfani was never
even dreamed of, as far as I know, in any such context.
13 Fanforn
14
15
16
17
Burton Wides raised that with me, and I just had to
throw up my hands. I just don't know.
Mr. Schwarz. And you don't know what the reference to DCI
in the notes means?
Mr. Harvey. No, I am sorry, I do not, at this point, Mr.
18 Schwarz.
Mr. Schwarz. Okay.
Mr. Harvey. Are you asking me to try to interpret the
portion of this that is in my handwriting, or are you satisified
19
20
21
22
at this point?
23
Mr. Schwarz. Well, the other items, it seems to
me,
are
24
either not Simportant or are understandable.
Maybe some of the
25
members have questions.
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Id: 32281945 Page 191 Resort - Brakes - suitab
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Id: 32281945 Page 17
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