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Vol. 2 OF 3
NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION
Unauthorized Disclosure Subject-
to Criminal Sanctions:
The United States Senate
R2873
Report of Proceedings
Hearing held before
Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities
Thursday, March 25, 1976
Washington, D. C..
(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
to the Committee for destruction)
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WARD & PAUL.
410 FIRST STREET, S. E.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003
LET
(202) 544-6000
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COMMITTEE MEETING
Thursday, March 25, 1976
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United States Senate,
Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations with Respect to
Intelligence Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:43 o'clock
11 p.m., in Room S-407, the Capitol, the Honorable Frank Church
12 (Chairman) presiding.
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Present: Senators Church (presiding), Mondale, Huddleston,
Hart of Michigan, Morgan, Hart of Colorado, Tower, Mathias,
15 Baker and Schweiker.
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Also present: William G. Miller, Staff Director; Frederick
17 A. O. Scwharz, Jr., Chief Counsel; and Charles Kirbow,
Elizabeth Culbreath, Michael Madican, Charles Lombard, William
Bader, Ted Rolson, Burt Wides, Walter Ricks, Rick Inderfurth,
John Bayly, David Aaron, Elliot Maxwell, Joseph Dennin,
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21 Margaret Carpenter, Martha Talley, Paul Wallach and Jim
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Johnston, Professional Staff Members.
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PROCEEDINGS
The Chairman. We will soon have a quorum. Why don't
we begin with the Recommendation No. 43 on page 77, having
to do with academics.
My understanding is that this recommendation has been
redrafted along the lines of the Committee's recommendations, and
as it now stands it calls for the CIA academics and the
institution to be informed, and for any student being recruited
to be so informed..
There is a choice in the latter case in informing him
before he is paid or informing him before he leaves the U.S.
Will you explain that to me, please?
Mr. Aaron. In the course of our discussion about the
recruitment of students off campuses, there were two cate-
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gories of concern. One was for the integrity of the institu-
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tions themselves, and the second was, in turn, for the
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students that might be involved.
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To take the second one first, the Committee received
testimony that some foreign students recruited as agents for
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the CIA were brought into kind of a holding status at a certain
point in which they were working for, if you will, CIA
proprietaries or CIA front organizations where they might
conduct some operational activity, provide some information,
under the impression that they were not working for the CIA
but for a company or, I think as one put it, I think, a group
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of investors.
Concern was expressed by the Committee in considering
this testimony that this might be rather severe for the student
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once he discovered the fact he had been working for the CIA,
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or should his government find that out, so that it was an
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element of coercion to hire somebody under, if you will, false
pretenses.
That second proviso, then, in effect says that we may
pitch and recruit a student as an agent, but you must, when you
do that, when you really bring him into an operational relation-
ship with the Agency, he should be so informed and not brought
into this sort of
The Chairman. Let's go off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
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The Chairman. The question that I have on this recommen-
dation is why shouldn't the foreign student being recruited
by the CIA be informed of his relationship with the CIA
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at the time that that relationship is established?
Why do you condition it upon payment or leaving the
country?
Senator Huddleston. Well, I was going to say there are
many, many initial contacts that do not advance maybe much
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further than that, and for the CIA to have to be exposed maybe
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on each of those might not be reasonable.
What we have tried
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to do is to make the wittingness be known about the time that
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they are to perform some service. Up to that time they are
still maybe prospects, where they may not have been recruited.
Which do you think the Committee should
The Chairman.
adopt of these two options?
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Mr. Aaron.
Actually, one could use both of these. I think
the point is that the danger to the student, if there is any,
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comes when he leaves the United States, either to return to
his own country or perhaps someplace else, but the commitment
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or involvement which ought to be witting really needs to come
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when he starts being paid, when he becomes in fact, or has
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a real relationship with the Agency.
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You could really establish
both standards, because it might well be that he could leave
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the country but not have yet been paid, and not really have
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a relationship that was anything more than kind of an asso-
ciation or an option, something of that character.
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The Chairman. Well what is the will of the Committee
as to these two options?
Senator Huddleston. Well, this represents a distillation
of what we have been proposing as Senator Mondale develops
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for us, I believe, and I would move that we adopt this report,
and use both of these, an either/or.
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45
The Chairman.
Whichever comes first, huh, either before
he is given payment of any kind or leaves the United States,
whichever may occur first.
Would that be satisfactory to the Committee?
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All right.
Without objection, then, that will be the
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What else do you have?
Mr. Aaron. We have two other recommendations.
Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, could I be recorded
in opposition to this?
The Chairman.
as in opposition.
Yes, Senator Hart of Colorado is recorded
Senator, there is a proxy in opposition as
The Chairman.
Mr. Madigan.
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opposition as well.
Senator Baker wants to be recorded in
Senator Mathias. I would, I think Senator Goldwater had
a very strong proxy that I read into the record on this subject
at the last meeting.
Mr. Kirbow. Against restricting any use of academics.
Senator Mathias. I don't have a proxy with him today, but
I feel his position ought to be noted.
The Chairman. Very well, then, with those particular
reservations made part of the record, the Committee will
approve the amended Recommendation No. 43.
We move then to Recommendation 45 on page 78.
Mr. Aaron. We attempted to redraft this along the lines
as we were instructed, I believe.
As it came out, it would prohibit the subsidy of any
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writing, publication, distribution within the United States
or its territories, of any book, magazine, article and so forth.
It has been pointed out that this formulation would prevent
the writing of a book, even in a foreign language, within the
United States, to be published abroad and distributed abroad,
or any such materials from being published within the United
States, even if they were distributed abroad.
Now, that may be too restrictive and go beyond what the
Committee intended, and so therefore we wanted to raise this
here, to get a better understanding of what we were attempting
to accomplish.
As I understand it, what we were it was not clear, but
it is possible that what the Committee had in mind was that
any writing, publication for distribution in the United States
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would have been the appropriate formulation for this, and if
that is correct, we can make a very easy fix.
Senator Morgan. Why wouldn't it?
The Chairman. Why wouldn't it accomplish it if we say
that by statute the CIA should be prohibited from subsidizing
the writing or production or distribution within the United
States or its territories of any book, magazine, article,
publication, film, or video or audio tape unless attributed
to the CIA.
Wouldn't that take care of it?
Mr. Aaron. If that is what the Committee intends, that
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would take care of it.
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Senator Mondale.
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Mr. Aaron.
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Publicly attributed.
Publicly
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Senator Huddleston.
are trying to do.
That is getting at what really we
The Chairman. How about the balance of 45, "nor should
the CIA be permitted to undertake any activity to accomplish
indirectly such distribution within the United States or its
territories.
Well, I think that follows and should be a part of it.
Very well.
Senator Mathias. Mr Chairman, I wonder, while we are in
this area, if you could refresh my recollection, whether
"grantees" in No. 44 applies to both foreign and American
grantees.
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to ensure that public funds that were publicly devoted to
Mr. Bader. Yes, it would, Senator, under this language,
because the Fulbright program or the such government-sponsored
programs to include, too, include foreigners. As I understood
it from the discussion of the Committee, the intent here was
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a specific purpose were so spent and that was the issue that
was involved here, was the appropriated funds for educational
programs be kept to educational programs and not to be used
operationally.
foreigners..
But the language here would certainly include
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Mr. Maxwell.. Bill would this prohibit the use of any
individual person who is sponsored by an educational or
cultural program, although not fully funded by the Federal
Government?
Senator Tower. This is a question I wanted to ask.
Could one of our networks pick up a portion of a film
broadcast abroad by the CIA and run it as part of a documentary
to show what they are doing and that kind of thing?
The Chairman. I think the way it has been modified that
is not a problem. This says "by statute the CIA should be
prohibited from subsidizing writings," or production.
Senator Tower. That what I mean, you are not precluded
from showing it, but it should not be done under CIA auspices
or government auspices.
The Chairman. And it should not be written for the
purpose of being shown in this country.
Senator Tower.
Yes.
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Mr. Aaron. Nor under the indirect clause, I think, nor
should the CIA go to CBS and say "we've got this wonderful
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film.
The Chairman.
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Using a network for the purpose of bringing
it back. That would be an indirect way, and that would be wrong
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Senator Tower.
I understand, yes.
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The Chairman.
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way we have recommended the change in 45, without objection'
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Let us go, then, to the next subject, the structural
changes, the role of the DCI on page 61..
Mr. Aaron. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. We have one other
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question, that would be Recommendation 47. The Committee
agreed to extend
Mr. Kirbow. Excuse me, Mr. Aaron. Senator Mathias's
question was on recommendation 44.
The Chairman. Were you satisfied with the answer?
Senator Mathias. Well, the question that was left
floating was what about a student who is in a program which is
primarily funded by some private institution, although there
may be some small element:
Mr. Maxwell. For instance, any major university that
sponsored an individual coming under 44, which receives
Federal Government funds, might be barred under a broad
reading of 44, and it might be helpful to make that intent
19. clearer in 44, if that is a concern of the Committee.
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Mr. Aaron. I think this goes to the grantee as opposed
to the institution.
Now, if it is true
The Chairman. It is the grantee that is receiving
funds.
Mr. Aaron. If you have a grantee receiving funds from
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more than one source, then he receives them from more than one
source, but if he is a grantee of a Federal program
Mr. Maxwell. But the problem is receiving funds through
educational and/or cultural programs.
For instance, if he were totally funded by the University
of Maryland, which received financial support from the United
States Government, arguably he is covered by that. It is not
that he is receiving Federal grants. I think that is the
intention.
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Mr. Aaron. It should be U.S. Government educational
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Mr. Bader. Would that help?
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The Chairman.
Through educational and/or cultural
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Senator Huddleston!
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programs sponsored by the United States Government. Wouldn't
that take care of it?
Well, grantees who are receiving
directly from the United States Government or through educational
or cultural programs supported by the United States Government.
The Chairman. Sponsored by.
Senator Huddleston. Well, in other words, whether he is
getting them directly himself as a grantee, or whether he is
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receiving them from an educational program that is itself
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supported by the Federal Government.
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Senator Mathias.
don't want to prolong this, but what
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about a program which is really directed right at this area
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which has been referred to, the armed services military
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educational operate?
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Mr. Bader.
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Mr. Aaron.
examples.
I'm sorry, sir?
Well, let me see if I understand the different
The student leader grant or the political leader.
grant that the State Department has where they bring foreigners
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to the United States for a
for
period of time, presumably to
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acquaint them with the country and what have you, under this
language those people while on the grant would be immune from
being recruited by the CIA. This doesn't mean that they
'couldn't recruit them at some other point in their careers, but
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that during the period of that grant they would not be in
effect brought here and used for that purpose. That is, I
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think, part of the intent of this particular provision.
Senator Mathias. Let me give you another example.
you have an Iranian naval officer who comes over here to
Say
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Is he fair game?
Mr. Miller. That is not educational or cultural. It
would be military.
Senator Huddleston. I believe if he were going through
the War College
Senator Tower. If he were going through the National
War College, how do you classify that?
Senator Mathias. He could come to the industrial base
or civilian
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Mr. Kirbow. He could go to the Industrial College or the
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War College.
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Senator Schweiker.
Can you exclude military training?
Senator Mathias. I don't know. I don't know what you
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want.
Senator Huddleston.
We are training a lot of them or
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we entertain a lot of them.
Senator Schweiker. It seems to me you have to put some
proviso about military training in there.
be.
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The Chairman. Well, it depends upon what the policy should
I had thought the attempt here was to immunize any foreigner
who comes here on a program sponsored by the Government of the
United States and receives a grant for that program, to
immunize him during that period from being recruited by the
CIA.
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Senator Schweiker.
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Well, if he is here for military
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purposes, then we know it is a military relationship, I would
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think that is suspect.
The Chairman.
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Would you want him subject to recruitment?
Senator Schweiker.
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Well, if he comes over here militarily,
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you are so close to him, what is the difference?
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Mr. Aaron.
Well, I think the point of the prohibition
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particular purpose.
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really is this, that these programs are created for one
They are considered by the Congress for
that particular purpose and the funds are voted for that
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1 particular purpose.
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If the programs are then used for another
purpose by the Government, that was considered and suggested
that that second purpose should not be used.
Now, if you want to exempt certain categories here and
say, well, the military is a different thing, you can do that.
You can find a way to express that.
The Chairman.
Well, it could be done. If you want to
recruit foreign military officers, we can bring them over
to put them through the War College.
Mr. Miller. What other training?
Senator Huddleston. Well, we have a steady stream at
Fort Knox, Kentucky of military people. I don't know what kind
of training. Most of them are, of course, are from friendly
nations to start with.
I don't know, you know, military. Once a person puts on
a uniform, he becomes fair game in a number of ways. He gives
up a lot of protections that civilians have.
Senator Schweiker.
You allow him to recruit- under
other policies here we allow them to recruit foreign military
officers because I think that's an even more valid relationship.
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than the students, but I make it clear that what we don't
want to do, which is to abort our honest to goodness cultural
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exchange and other programs.
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The Chairman.
This could be done by saying "By statute
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Senator Schweiker. Can we talk about Defense and military
training programs at the same time? It seems to me that's
the criteria, bringing a guy over here and educating him on
defense and military must be to the advantage of our military,
so you know what the relationship is to begin with. You are
not unwittingly using the guy. You are pretty witting.
If the guy goes to the American War College, he is pretty
fair game.
The Chairman.
You can write an exception for the American
War College and all of the military and civilian personnel
receiving training under the auspices of the United States
armed services who are fair game.
(General laughter.)
Senator Huddleston.
Except I agree with Dave, that is
a little awkward to zero in on this particular group. Couldn't
Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, I think it is not intended
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we find some way
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this apply
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only to foreign students coming this way, you
include all American students going in the other direction,
or under any other grant.
Mr. Aaron. The intention of the provision initially, as
a matter of fact, its primary effect was for American students
traveling abroad.
Senator Tower. Well, I see no problem with that. I know
I don't have the votes here, but
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The Chairman.
Which part do you have?
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Senator Tower.
Well, not being able to use American
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most of the people the damned Soviets send over here on these
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cultural exchanges are really clued into the government
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program, indoctrinated and briefed thoroughly before they get
here. I am not going to tie our hands like that. The rest
of you can, but I'm not going to.
I will write a vigorous dissent on that.
Senator Morgan. May I make a comment on that?
I'm inclined to agree, and I'm also inclined to agree
that we are going so far in our foreign intelligence that
we are endangering the whole report, so you make that kind of
an argument on the floor of the Senate on this and on two or
15 three other things. I'm not picking at any of them. I am
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just sort of accepting the recommendations of the Subcommittee,
but my reaction has been that maybe we are getting a little
bit so far afield that we may endanger the acceptance of our
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whole report.
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The Chairman. Senator Huddleston?
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Senator Huddleston.
I would just say this, that the
Subcommittee has been cognizant of that situation.. I think it is
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because of that that some of these recommendations are already
softer than some of us thought would be appropriate, and this
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There was a considerable amount of support
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of the idea that academics be off limits, period, and students
in order to protect the integrity of our entire academic
community, and it is the realization that if we continued to
close the possibilities for recruitment, and the adverse
effect that that would have, maybe, on our ability to gather
intelligence, that some of us backed off of this, what would
be the optimum, we think, position to take. So this already
represents somewhat of a retreat from the principle that some
would like to see established, and in this case I think we
are again faced with the question of whether or not we want
a government-sponsored program to enjoy a high level of integrity
so that the people who are participating in it and the American
taxpayer who is supporting it can have some confidence that it
is doing what it was set out to do and what the publicly
announced purposes of it are.
And if we don't do that, if we permit it to be used as
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we ought to announce that, that that ought to be one of the
an operational intelligence operation, then it seems to me like
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purposes so stated in the grant to start with, while we are
likely to get an education, it is also likely if we can we
will have you gather intelligence for us.
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Senator Morgan. Well, Dee, I think you are getting off
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base for us.
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There is nothing that says they are required to
do it.
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Senator Huddleston.
That is correct.
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Senator Morgan. In other words, we are not going to
condition this grant on
Senator Huddleston.
Well
Senator Morgan. Let me finish out, now.
What you are
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leading up to is you are saying we are going to condition this
grant on your cooperation with other governmental agencies.
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Senator Huddleston.
I am saying that is not beyond the
realm of possibility in some cases, if we don't put some
prohibition.
Senator Morgan. Well, I think there may be times,
especially in the light of what we heard in the past year,
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States Government that you can really assume
when, you know, we might make that assumption, but I don't
think that on the whole when you are dealing with the United
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Senator Hudddleston.
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either.
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The Chairman. But what worries me is you get a student
who in good faith goes abroad for the purpose of study and
qualifies for a Government grant, and he depends upon that
money and then he, when he gets over there and wants to complete
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his studies, he is approached, and he can be approached in
such a way that he can be made to feel that if he does not
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throw in with the CIA and do this and that, he may find that
the grant will be cut off or he can't complete the study as he
intended. He feels a certain dependency upon the money that
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he is receiving, and he has an expectation he wants to fulfill.
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And thus he is in a very vulnerable position when he is
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approached.
Senator Morgan. Well, that is a persuasive argument, but
let me ask you, have we had any evidence that that sort of
thing has happened?
The Chairman. Well, I don't know.
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Senator Morgan.
Well, it is a very persuasive argument,
but I just wonder if we should, in the absence of abuse on
that part, whether or not we should go this far.
The Chairman. What about it, Mr. Bader?
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Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, I might say in partial response
to Senator Tower's remarks that the Agency's basic instruction
for the operational use of individuals, 50-10, specifically.
prohibits the operational use of Fulbright grantees. They have
already made that decision in 1967, and reconfirmed in 1973.
I assume part of that came from agitation at the time in 167
and Senator Fulbright's own determination that that program not
be used for operational purposes.
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that talks about Fulbright grantees. It was the original
intent of the recommendation that is now before you to extend
It was the original intent of this language to extend
that prohibition, which is now a matter of public record, this
actually, that part of the instruction is in the public record
now under the Freedom of Information Act, that part of 50-10
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that prohibition on Fulbright grantees to all of those under
the Fulbright-Hayes legislation. Under the specifics of the
Agency's interpretation, it makes a distinction between those'
students, or graduate students, or professors selected by the
Board of Foreign Scholarships, and the rest
wwwww w
includes cultural leader grants and the like.
and the rest.
'Now, perhaps it might be the sensible thing in the
language like this to confine it to the Fulbright-Hayes Act,
which is the basic legislation which deals with this.
Senator Schweiker. How many others would you have outside
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of that? Would you have a lot of other programs?
Mr. Bader. Other programs?
Senator Schweiker.
the Fulbright-Hayes Act?
What percent of the total picture is
༈ སྐུ་
Mr. Bader. I really wouldn't know, Senator. I think it
is the major part of it, actually. You could have a National
Endowment for the Humanities fellowship in which a person would
go overseas, and this, under the language we now have before
you, that would include those individuals.
The Chairman. Well, I can see how vulnerable a grantee
might be when approached, and if we have already written
into law a prohibition that relates to the Fulbright scholars,
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I should think it ought to apply to any others that are
receiving educational or cultural grants from the United
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States.
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Senator Tower. That is not a law, that is a regulation.
Mr. Aaron. And CIA's own regulation.
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The Chairman.
I thought you said.
But then it was adopted as part of the law,
Mr. Bader.
NO,
sir. I said it has been made public
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through the Freedom of Information Act. This is an internal
directive of the Agency, and as the Senators know, those.
directives are certainly subject to change, so there really
are, in effect, two basic parts of this recommendation.
One
was to commit the present internal prohibitions of the CIA to
law, and then to extend it, and the issue before the Committee,
12
in addition to whether there should be an extension, is sort
13
of how far and what language should be used to portray or
14
15
convey that prohibition?
Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, do we have anything from
16
the Agency on this?
17
Senator Huddleston.
I think you've got to weigh, to some
18
extent, the value of the two programs, of our cultural exchange
19
programs' importance. I think the public knowledge of any one
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individual becomes known as a spy who is associated with a
program, it has a devastating effect, in my judgment, on the
program and on all students who are participating in it. I
just think the risk is too great.
Senator Tower. Well, my question at that point would be
to what extent does our cultural exchange program impact on
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people behind the Iron Curtain, to convince them as people that
2.
we are nice folks, that they ought to influence their government
3
to be a little bit more friendly toward us? It doesn't have
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ry
any impact at all in a totalitarian state, none.
It is really a one way street.
Now, I am all for cultural exchange, simply because I
like to watch Russian ballet dancers, especially females, but
8
the fact of the matter is cultural change does more to soften
up the American public toward the Iron Curtain than the
10
other way around.
The Chairman.
11
That is an argument as to the merits of
12
13
cultural exchange, and how you view ballerinas, but the question
here we face is whether or not we should put American students
14
in a position where they feel they must
15
Senator Tower. I don't think they must be coerced.
The Chairman. But there is an element of intimidation
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17
"
Senator Tower.
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involved if they are receiving a grant from the government.
Well, I would favor a specific prohibition
against making that a condition of getting a grant or scholarship
of some sort.
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80
Senator Baker. Or continuing one.
21
Senator Tower. Or continuing one.
22
Senator Hart of Michigan. Well, John, what do you say
23
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to Dee's point? If my roommate turns out to be a spy,
it is
25.
automatically assumed I am, and every guy in the outfit. What
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does this do to the American that is over there, all of
them? I don't think that is right.
Senator Tower. Well, I think in many instances American
operations abroad that have been completely innocent have been
labeled as spy operations for propaganda purposes by the other
side, and they will do that if they choose to. They will not
do it if they choose not to do it.
The Chairman. But you have many of these students who are
not inside Russia or in a Communist country. We have educational
and cultural programs in Third World countries and in the
The Chairman. And there, if someone is caught engaging in
10
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western world.
12
Senator Tower. I understand that..
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a CIA action of some kind, then everybody is contaminated.
The whole thing then becomes suspect in France or England or
wherever it might be.
Senator Tower. What if the grantee comes to CIA and
says, I have made some contacts over here that I think would
be of value in terms of passing intelligence along to you?
Are you going to turn him down and say, no, you are on a
Fulbright grant, we can't let you do that?
Senator Huddleston.¨ No, they could use his information to
contact somebody else. He would not necessarily be operational
Mr. Bader. Operational use, under the Agency's definition,
has two major elements to it. First is that the purposes to
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be accomplished, and objectives, are established by the Agency,
2
and the second is that the individual involved is tasked to
3
do that, ordered to do it, if you please.
<<
4
5
Operational use does not, by the Agency's definition,
:
involve individuals who would come to the Central Intelligence
6
7
Agency to voluntarily give whatever information that they
think would be of value to the Agency, the kind of information
8
that the Contacts Division normally would like to have.
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Senator Tower. Yes, but once having done that, the Agency
determines this person is valuable and they observe this
person and they put him under a control officer.
Mr. Bader. Then he would come under this condition. That
would be operational use!
Senator Huddleston.
him when he came back.
It would not include a debriefing of
Mr. Kirbow. Nor could he be asked to go to a single meeting
more and report back on the very same subject that he just
reported on, which might be a critical target to the United
States Governments' national security.
Mr. Bader. Once he is operational, he has to accomplish a
particular task or purpose, then he is operationally used under
the terms.
Senator Tower. Even if he initiates the contact with
the Agency in the first place.
Mr. Bader.
Only, Senator, if there is a second stage in
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this, if the individual
Senator Tower. I know. The second stage may be the most
important.
Mr. Bader. It certainly may, and at that stage, under the
Agency's definition, he would be operationally
Senator Huddleston.
I can't believe the Agency wouldn't
have another entre of some sort.
Senator Tower. What kind of widespread abuse are we
trying to prevent?
Has there been widespread abuse?
9
10
Mr. Bader.
11
No, sir, there has not.
12
Senator Tower. There has not been.
13
Mr. Aaron. This occurs.
14
Mr. Bader. This occurs, yes.
15
Senator Hart of Michigan. What is the benefit
there
16.
has been no abuse, but what benefit?
Senator Mondale. It's not
that's not the word. It's
17
18
not no abuse. It's not widespread.
Mr. Bader. The term is "not widespread."
19.
20
Senator Tower.
I said "widespread."
21
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Mr. Bader. Yes, I said "widespread.'
1f
Senator Hart of Michigan. The question is, what
benefits? Do we know?
Senator Huddleston. That is very difficult to ascertain.
Senator Tower.
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Significant abuse? Any record of abuse?
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What record of abuse do we have?
2
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3
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5
Senator Hart of Michigan. Any record of significant
benefit.
Mr. Bader. A record of significant abuse in the sense
that Fulbright students or those under American educational
6
programs have been used operationally.
There is an extensive
7
record over the years, but it is not of major importance to
8
the Agency.
9
The Chairman.
Well, apparently the Agency itself has
10 restricted or has put the Fulbright scholars off limits,
Mr. Bader. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Well, then,
Senator Hart of Michigan. That must be the result of a
conclusion that either they were not beneficial or they didn't
11
right?
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want to poison the program.
Why doesn't that reasoning apply to these others?
The Chairman.
well come
Well, I think it does, but we might as
to a vote on it and decide whether we want to keep
it or strike it.
Senator Huddleston. Well, to bring it to a vote, Mr.
22 Chairman, I would move that Paragraph 44
23
24.
25
Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, I would just kind of make
one inquiry, I believe, and I already know the answer to it,
that even though we are voting on this section, I believe the
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arrangement we had previously, that is to say, that none of
this is final, and certainly not until we hear the comments
of the Agency.
Is that still observed?
5
The Chairman.
Yes, that is still the situation. Nothing
6
7
9
10
becomes final until the final vote is taken, and anything can
be reconsidered.
Senator Baker. Then we are going to have comments from the
When, Bill, tomorrow?
Agency.
Mr. Miller. Staff is going to get them tomorrow afternoon
out there, and they are going to give it to us in writing, I
think, tomorrow afternoon.
11
12
13
The Chairman.
I suspect that the Agency will oppose
14
many of these recommendations.
15
Senator Huddleston.
No question about that.
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The Chairman. I hope that won't be the single basis
upon which we decide for or against.
Senator Huddleston. My motion includes, Mr. Chairman,
19
that we exempt the military.
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Senator Schweiker. You say it will include
Senator Huddleston. That will be in my motion, in 44, that
we exclude foreign military people.
The Chairman. All right.
The motion is made that Recommendation No. 44 be approved
with the exception that it does not apply to foreign military
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personnel coming into this country, is that right?
Senator Huddleston. Yes.
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The Chairman.
Let's have a vote.
Do you want to call the roll, Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
5
6
Mr. Hart of Michigan.
7
0
Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale.
Senator Mondale. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston.
28
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Senator Huddleston.
11
Aye.
12
Mr. Miller. Mr. Morgan.
13
Senator Morgan.
No.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado?
14
Senator Hart of Colorado.
Aye.
15
Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.
16
Senator Baker. No.
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Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias?
Senator Tower. You missed Goldwater. You missed Senator
Goldwater.
Goldwater no by written proxy.
Mr.
Miller. Mr. Mathias is in the phone booth.
Mr. Schweiker.
Senator Schweiker. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower?
25.
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Senator Tower.
No.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Church?
The Chairman.
Aye.
Senator Tower. I don't think it is going to affect the
outcome, so I ask consent that he be recorded.
Mr. Miller. The ayes have it. It is six to four. Mr.
Mathias is still in the phone booth.
Senator Tower. I ask consent that he be allowed to be
recorded. It might change the outcome.
47.
The Chairman. All right.
Let's go to 61 next.
Mr. Aaron. The next issue is on page 78A, Recommendation.
The Committee previously agreed to extend the CIA
prohibitions
15
on the use of media to the use of any person
16
17
who regularly contributes material to publications and those
involved directly or indirectly in the editing or setting
18
policy and direction in the direction of the activities of
19
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U.S. media organizations.
What was unclear was whether this was the recommendation
of the Committee to the CIA that it amend its regulations to do
that, or whether this was to be embodied in statute as had
been recommended in Recommendation 46.
E
2
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The Chairman.
I'm sorry, I have lost you.
Jegin 3
25
Mr. Aaron.
You will find the words "proposed statutory
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CIA prohibition" and you see the words "proposed" and
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ry
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"statutory" are in brackets, reflecting uncertainty on our part
as to whether it was the intention of the Committee that this
prohibition simply be a CIA regulation or embodied in the
statute, which is recommended in the recommendation of procedures.
The Chairman. Senator Huddleston, do you have any comment
on this?
Senator Huddleston. I have a personal feeling that when
we go too far statutorily in dealing with the press, that we
sometimes get on thin ice. I don't know whether it would be
appropriate to make some suggestion here that the press itself
initiate certain standards and methods. Many of them in the
press believe they ought to have anyhow.
I think the recommendation for the CIA is probably.
sufficient.
The Chairman. And let that be handled as a matter of
CIA regulations.
13
14
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16
17
Senator Huddleston.
Rather than by statute.
18
The Chairman. Rather than by statute.
19
20
Is that acceptable to the Committee?
21
Senator Tower. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.
Would you
22
repeat the proposition?
23
The Chairman. The proposition is that the Committee
24
recommend that the CIA, by regulation, handle this matter
25
rather than make it statutory.
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Senator Tower.
Well, I oppose it either by statute or
by regulation, so I would suggest that those who favor the
concept determine whether they want to do it by either statute
or regulation.
I am opposed to doing it by either.
Senator Schweiker. I would like to see it by statute if
we are going to do it.
Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, does this make any distinction
between domestic media and on the media located physically
within the United States and the U.S. media outside the
No, it does not. It simply attempts to
prevent the CIA from involving itself with personnel who are
part of the U.S. media, whether here or abroad, as I read it.
Senator Tower. Okay, now, let me ask you a question..
10
United States?
11
The Chairman.
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What is there is a Reuters reporter in Moscow who is
cooperating with us, and Reuters contributes regularly to U.S.
media?
Senator Schweiker. We spent an hour on that. They are
excluded. We argued that for an hour and I lost the point, so
they would be excluded.
Senator Huddleston. This basically just extends to
CIA's own prohibition that they had initiated against what we
would normally think of as working journalists, and includes
into it the executives and editors and those who may be
freelancing.
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Senator Tower.
What if we got a freelancer for Time
2 Magazine who is indeed a foreign national?
Does he come under
3
this prohibition?
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Senator Huddleston. If he has some regular association with
Time he would be.
Mr. Aaron. Under the Agency's current regulations and
own prohibitions, a foreign journalist working for Time Magazine
oversees would be prohibited from being used by them for
operational purposes. That is their own position today. This
would extend that prohibition to someone who is, what in the
trade jargon is a stringer, or
Senator Tower. This would include a stringer?
Senator Schweiker. It wouldn't cover Reuters or some
other foreign news service.
Mr. Aaron. It would also apply to a foreigner who was,
for example, if there were such a thing as an editor in the
I don't think they work that
way, but say there were such a person, it would apply to him
16
17
Paris Bureau of Time Magazine.
18
19
as well.
Senator Tower. What about the Paris Trib? What about
20
that?
21
22
Mr.
Aaron.
A U.S. media organization.
23
23
Mr. Kirbow.
It is excluded.
24
Senator Schweiker.
That is a subsidiary of an American
25
company.
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Senator Tower. What about Reader's Digest Selecciones,
2
which is their Spanish publication?
Is that included?
3
Mr. Aaron. (I assume
SO.
5
The Chairman. Well, according to the CIA's own restric-
tions, it is excluded now, except this would simply
extend the exclusion to stringers, those who do not have
7
regular employment.
8.
Senator Huddleston.
And editors and executives.
9
The Chairman. And editors and executives.
10
Mr. Bader. The present restriction, Senator Tower,
.
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that has been extended by the Agency in February, went to
accredited journalists, accredited to U.S. media organizations.
The only difference between this prohibition and the one
already assumed by the Agency is that this moves further
accreditation to include those who regularly contribute to
U.S. media organizations or are a part of their structure.
Mr. Kirbow. The management structure.
Mr. Bader. The management structure, whether they
contribute material to or are involved directly or indirectly
in the preparation of material.
The Chairman. Well, I think if we are going to do it,
we had better decide on the policy. If we want to keep the
22
23
CIA out of U.S. media both at home and abroad, and we want
24
22
to extend that to stringers as well, then I think it ought
.25 to be done by statute rather than just a recommendation by
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the Committee that the CIA do it, because the CIA regulations
2
may or may not issue, and they can be changed at any time.
10
3
10
5
6
7
without notice.
Senator Tower. Well, Mr. Chairman, aren't we talking about
two different things?
I don't mean foreign, you know, our foreign correspondents
abroad writing CIA propaganda for American publications. We
8
are talking about operations here, operational use, not use
9
to write some article that the CIA wants planted in an American
publication. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking
13
14
15
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12
about using him to gather intelligence, and it goes back
directly to the CIA which doesn't serve as a publication.
But operational use can include many things
The Chairman.
including writing propaganda and usually would if it involved
journalists.
Senator Tower. Well, I think we have already got a
prohibition on that.
Mr. Bader. The prohibition that the Central Intelligence
Agency has self-imposed extends across the line from cover
20
to placement to all operational use of individuals, accredited
individuals to American media organizations.
As I say, the
21
difference between what the Agency has already taken upon
22
itself and what this recommendation involves is this recommen-
23
dation extends it to individuals who are not accredited.
24
25
There are a number
the figures that the Committee has
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which have been authenticated by the Agency, that there are
2
some 60 Americans who are affiliated or are part of American
media organizations around the world, part of a larger network
3
4
of some 400 journalists and the like who are part of the Agency's
5
overall media asset program, and of those 60 under the Agency's
present prohibitions, the ones recently imposed, it would go
6
7
to just one third of those individuals.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
.16
17
This prohibition would extend it from the one third to
i
all because the other two thirds include people that are
under cover, who are in management, and who are not under
the technical term accredited to U.S. media organizations.
Mr. Chairman, I might say if the Committee would look
at the Recommendation 46 that goes before 47, perhaps it might
bear in mind that the recommendation in 46, which takes the
present Agency prohibitions and says that they should be
established in law, if in 47, if the Committee should so
decide to do it by recommendation, that they change their
internal prohibitions, there will be a contrast between 46
18
and 47.
19
The Chairman.
20
21
22
23
Well, let's have a vote. Let's go back
to 46, and I take it that the recommendation is that this
prohibition that the CIA has imposed upon itself ought to
be written in statutory form.
Mr. Bader. That is the recommendation.
24
The Chairman.
All right. Let's have a vote on that
25
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first of all, and then we'll take up 47.
Mr. Miller, will you call the roll?
Senator Huddleston.
Mr. Chairman, I think I am probably
the only one that has suggested that it should not be statutory
and I would just point out that that might be a result of the
fact that I am in the media, so I would withdraw that unless
7
8
6
10
11
.12
13
somebody else wants to make that recommendation.
The Chairman. I thought yours went to 47.
This is 46.
Senator Huddleston. It did, but they both relate to the
media.
The Chairman. Well, let's take a vote on 46, which
would recommend that Congress enact a statute conforming to
14
15
the CIA's self-imposed prohibition on U.S. journalists or
foreign journalists accredited to the U.S. media abroad.
16
17
Yes
18
19
20
21
22
Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Michigan.
Senator Hart of Michigan.
The Chairman.
Senator Hart of Michigan. Aye.
Mr.
Miller. Mr. Mondale.
Senator Mondale. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston?
Did you want a roll call?
23
Senator Huddleston.
Aye.
24
Mr. Miller. Mr. Morgan.
25
Senator Morgan. Aye.
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Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado.
2.
Senator Hart of Colorado.
Aye.
10
3
Mr. Miller. Mr. Baker.
.4.
Senator Baker. Aye.
50
7
8
0
Mr. Miller. Mr. Goldwater.
Senator Tower. No by proxy.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.
(No response.)
Mr. Miller. Mr. Schweiker.
37
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Senator Schweiker.
Aye.
11
Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower.
12
Senator Tower. No.
13
Mr. Miller. Mr. Church..
14
The Chairman.
Aye.
15
16
Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent
that Senator Mathias be recorded. It will not be changed.
17
The Chairman. All right.
18
19
20
21
Now can we go to 47 and vote it up or down on the
understanding that this recommendation having to do with
stringers and the use of executives would not take statutory
form but it would be a recommendation to the CIA without
22
such regulation.
23
23
Mr.
Ms. Culbreath.
Chairman, could I say just a word, please
24
25
sir, with regard to whether it was done by directive or regu-
lation or by statute.
Yesterday one of the general recommendation:
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1
that we discussed and the staff was asked to rewrite went to
2
the question of any changes or waivers of Agency directives
3
or recommendations, and as considered by the Committee
yesterday.
The agreement was
and if that proposal is
4
5
.7
8
9
10
one of the general recommendations goes through any waiver
of an existing regulation or any amendment of an existing
regulation, that affected the significant policies or programs
of the Agency, would have to go immediately to NSC and to the
oversight committee so that they would know.
So what I am saying is that if you had a directive and
there was a change in something like this which would be
significant, there would have to be notice to the oversight
committee and to the NSC.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
.19
20
21
22
223
23
24
24
25
The Chairman.
Can we have a vote, then, on 47 before.
we go down to the Senate to this roll call.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Michigan.
Senator Hart of Michigan.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Mondale..
Senator Mondale. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Huddleston.
Senator Huddleston. Aye.
Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Morgan.
Senator Morgan. Ay
Mr. Miller. Mr. Hart of Colorado.
Senator Hart of Colorado. Aye.
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Miller. Mr. Baker.
Senator Baker. Aye!
1
Mr.
2
10
3
Mr. Miller. Mr. Goldwater.
4
Senator Tower. No by proxy.
5
Mr. Miller. Mr. Mathias.
6
(No response.)
r
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Mr. Miller. Mr. Schweiker.
Senator Schweiker. Aye.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Tower.
Senator Tower.
No.
Mr. Miller. Mr. Church.
The Chairman. Aye.
Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent
that Senator Mathias be allowed to vote.
The Chairman. That will be so ordered.
All right, let's take a short recess and come back.
(Whereupon, at 4:05 o'clock p.m. the Committee
recessed to reconvene at 10:00 o'clock a.m., Friday, March
26, 1976.)
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