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Date: 10/08/93
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RECORD NUMBER: 157-10002-10148
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FROM:
TO :
TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL
DATE: 05/30/75
PAGES: 168
SUBJECTS :
MAHEU, ROBERT
CASTRO
ASSASSINATION
CUBA
HUGHES
BISSELL
VERONA
VARONA
HARVEY, WILLIAM
ROSSELLI
GIANCANA
MAFIA
TRAFFICANTE
CIA
ROWAN, DAN
MCGUIRE, PHYLLIS-
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T
RESTRICTIONS: REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS: P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93
OPENING CRITERIA :
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Judy
Box 255
Folder 4
COMMENTS :
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
Date: 10/05/93
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Chairman Church.
Would you please take the oath?
Do you swear that everything you will testify to in
these proceedings shall be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. O'Connell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL
Mr. Schwarz. Would you state your name?
My name is James P. O'Connell.
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Mr. O'Connell.
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Mr. Schwarz. And what is your address?
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Mr. O'Connell. 1333 Elsinore Avenue, Molean
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22101
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Mr. Schwarz.
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Before we proceed substantively let me
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just put on the record some matters.
First, you understand that you have a right to counsel?
Mr. O'Connell. I understand that. I just read it.
Mr. Schwarz. And you should also be advised that you
have your rights under the Constitution, including your
rights under the Fifth Amendment, if at any point you wish
to assert whatever rights that you do have that are under those
Constitutional provisions.
Do you understand that?
Mr.O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. And if at any time you feel that you
need an attorney you have the right to ask for an
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,
attorney, do you understand that?
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pills?
Mr. O'Connell. The man that created them is Dr. Raymond
Trichler.
Mr. Schwarz.\ Did.he hand the pills to you?
Mr.
O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. Did he know what the pills were for?
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Mr. O'Connell. I don't think so.
Mr. Schwarz. But he knew they were illegal?
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Mr. O'Connell. He knew they were illegal.
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Mr. Schwarz. And were the pills not tried out on some
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experimental subjects in the U.S.?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
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Mr. Schwarz. And proven to be lethal?
Mr. O'Connell. Well, to the extent
I will tell you
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that, we used them on hamsters.
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Mr. Schwarz. And also monkeys?
Mr. O'Connell. No, as far as I know, just the hamsters.
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Mr. Schwarz. But anyway, you knew they were lethal.
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Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
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Mr. Schwarz. And you handed them over to Rosselli?
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Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
1 Mr. Schwarz. And had the Technical Services made poison
pills before as far as you know?
Mr. O'Connell. As far as I know. I have no idea.
This was my first experience with that sort of thing.
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your possession, that might give you a more accurate timing than
I am giving to you now.
Mr. Madigan.
We don't have it presently.
Mr. O'Connell. I am sure it is over there.
Mr. Wides. With regard to the discussion of authorization,
would it have been following on Mr. Madigan's point, that this
was a fairly serious and unusual operation that you were given,
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and that you would have asked, is this authorized?
the question of Mr. Dulles authorizing it come up, as best you
Or how did
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recall?
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Mr. O'Connell. I told you, I knew that Mr. Dulles
told that Mr. Dulles had authorized it, I can't say quite when
it happened, but I know I was told.
I was
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Mr. Wides. You testified this morning
I don't want
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to put words in your mouth I thought you testified that you
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were sure that Mr. Edwards told you at this meeting when he first
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gave you the assignment that you were not sure that Mr. Bissell's
also mentioned that when you later met in your office.
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Mr. O'Connell. I would stick with that, yes. I think it
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probably was when I when Colonel Edwards called me he
said, this probably has the blessing of the DCI.
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Mr. Wides.
Do you know if Dr. V. S. Roosevelt, who
was head of the Technical Services Division at the time, was
witnessing about this?
Mr. O'Connell. I wouldn't want to bet my life that he
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wasn't. But he was at a meeting when the bills were delivered,
and Dr. Treichler came over to Colonel Edwards'office.
Mr. Wides. But you don't recall whether you ever knew
that roosevelt knew what it was in connection with as distinct
from merely knowing it was a lethal pill, is that right?
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the discussion never came up when I was there.
he is a dummy, and I don't think Treichler is any dummy, and
I think they had a general idea.
But as far as I know they were never officially told.
Mr.
Wides. To your knowledge, before you went overseas
no one else in the office of Security, Mr. Bannerman, Mr.
White or Mr. Hall, none of those men or anyone else knew about
the project, only yourself and Mr. Edwards?
Mr.
O'Connell. I can't say
to my personal knowledge,
I don't think
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Mr. O'Connell. Well, I would say this, to my knowledge
they were never briefed. However, I think I brought up an
incident this morning where Colonel Edwards was on leave and
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Colonel King called Mr. Bannerman, who was his
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this
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Mr. Wides.
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deputy, and assumed that Bannerman knew all about it and started
talking about it, what are we going to do about
I don't know what the conversation was about.
Bannerman called in and said, what was this all about?
This was in 1962 before you left?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes. It was while I was up in the office.
And I said, I don't have the authority to brief you on it.
And
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Wides.
Were you ever aware, whether you were formally
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notified or just got a rumble or heard through the grapevine,
that the CIA was getting some information about these threats,
or some information about groups who might pose a threat in the
Washington area, not from Bureau sources or military sources,
but from CIA sources, did you ever hear any rumble of that kind?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Wides. What did you hear?
Mr. O'Connell. The only way I got involved in it was that
Howard Osborn would have a nine o'clock meeting every
morning with his deputies.
And they had a proprietary organization in the Office of
Security which I think had informants.
Now, I don't know their identities, but it would come out
in the meeting, and they would have some names for them. I
couldn't tell you what they were.
Mr. Madigan. What was the proprietary called?
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Mr. O'Connell. The name that strikes me
and I
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I think it
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was Anderson
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Mr. Madigan. Anderson Stuart?
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Mr. O'Connell. Anderson Stuart, something like that.
Mr. Wides. You say you think they had informants?
Mr. O'Connell. They obviously did, I guess, because the
way this would come out, so-and-so advised at a meeting last
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night.
Mr. Wides.
If you associate that with Anderson
you must have been told more than just, we have an informant.
How would it be discussed at the meeting, through this
proprietary we have access to information?
Mr. O'Connell. No, it usually would be the Deputy
Director that that was under. And that was under OIS.
Mr. Wides. Victor White?
Mr. O'Connell.
Victor White.
Mr. Wides. And what would he say about how Anderson
fitted into the picture?
Mr. O'Connell. That never came up. I just drew that
conclusion, that they had potential.
Mr. Wides. Why would you assume that they used a proprie-
tary as opposed to just having some agents penetrate a group?
Why would you think in terms of their using the Anderson
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Mr. O'Connell. I can tell you what I think.
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First of all, I wouldn't want to use government employees.
Mr. Wides. Why couldn't the CIA personnel just run
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agents who would be
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Mr.
O'Connell.
That is in fact what they were doing.
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These people that were proprietary were not CIA employees.
They
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Mr. Wides. Why would you have thought that they would have
gone the route of using the proprietary people as opposed to
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Did you have any knowledge during the 1970-1971 time frame
of any effort outside of Florida with regard to Cubans to fire
on the Keys or on the Florida area there with a boat that
would be disguised as a Russian boat, which was really a
group of people, some of whom were assets of the Agency?
Mr. O'Connell. No.
Mr. Madigan. You never heard of anything like that?
Mr. O'Connell. Nothing of that, no.
Mr. Madigan. Did you ever run across a fellow by
the name of Jerry Henning in your dealing with Roselli
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and Maheu?
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Mr.O'Connell.
No.
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Mr. Madigan. You never heard of the name?
Mr.
O'Connell. I never heard of the name.
Mr. Madigan.
Did you handle the Agency contact with Mr.
Maheu about having him coordinate or set up or be involved
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in the supplying of a female to
eign leader back in 1959?
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Mr. O'Connelll. A couple of them, as
a matter of fact.
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Mr. Madigan. A couple of foreign leaders?
Mr. O'Connell.
Yes.
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Mr. Madigan. What was your involvement in that? Am I
right about 1959?
Mr. O'Connell. It could be. There were two different
occasions.
Mr. Madigan. What is your recollection as to the dates?
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Well, the first one was
about
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Mr.O'Connell.
Mr. Madigan. And how did that come about?
you in the Office of Security as opposed to
Mr. O'Connell.
Why did it go to
Just like this other one came down from the
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Division, as
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I recall it. And
was coming into the
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Mr. Wides. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Madigan. What did your first contact with Maheu
with regard to this project involve?
Mr. O'Connell. Well, the request came to the Security.
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Mr. Madigan. It came down to you?
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Mr. O'Connell. It came through Colonel Edwards.
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Mr. Madigan. To you?
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Mr. O'Connell. Yes. And the requirement was a ce
typ
female who would
this for
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female
companionship
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Mr. Madigan. The leader?
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Mr. O'Connell.
leader did..
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Mr. Madigan. So did you contact Maheu directly?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Wides. In this instance you were talking about
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a leader sho would be in America
to supply companion
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Wherever the lead
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Mr.O'Connell. He
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propose
te visit a
was visiting New York, and it was
The really
wanted some female companionship. And his case officer, the
Agency's case officer that was handling the leader, said,
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let's stick to business while you are in New York.
And we will
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take you out to the West
and that is going to be a
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pleasure trip, and we will se
you meet the right people.
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So Maheu lined up this young lady who was a starlet, a
little cutie, and they knew the type he liked, size and
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everything.
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So they threw a cocktail party for him,
informal
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Cocktail party
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Mr. Madigan. Maheu did?
Mr. O'Connell. It was a fellow named Gregg Bautzer. He
used to be married to some very famous actress, and he knows
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just about anything and everything that walks
skirts in L.A.
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and Hollywood
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So Maheu called Gregg and as
with something according to certain specs. And he did. And she
him if he could come up
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was placed in the right atmosphere, at the r
right time and the
leader went head over heels in love with her, to the extent
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that it was beyond what we planned. He
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Mr. Madigan. Was fellow named Norman Paul involved
in this?
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Mr. O'Connell.
Normal Paul at one time was the
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head of the Division that I mentioned a little while ago, "But
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So what we thought was going to be a passing fancy, he
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go back to New York,
he insisted that she
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Well, this was getting
little embarrassing, because here
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he is the head of his country,
he has got this gal on the
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strings.
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So, we agreed to it and she agreed
it, but we had to keep
her in one hotel
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she was staying at the Waldorf-
Astoria and he was staying in another place. And
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got a
house out in Long Island so they could have their rendevouz,
and they would spend ome time together
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Mr. Madigan.
Was that an Agency house?
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Mr. O'Connell.
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we rented the house from a private
ndividual who was a friend of somebody who was with the
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Agency
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Mr. Madigan. Did you handle that?*
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Mr. O'Connell.
field office handled that, the
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Work field office.
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Mr. Madigan. Of the Office
Mr. O'Connell. They handled procuring the house out in
Long Island. And then they also supplied people to stay with
the young lady whie she was in New York, because they didn
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want to have her – running · around it wasn't holding her
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assist er in any requirements she had while she was waiting for
the leader
Mr. Madigan.
And was that the end of that particular
project that you recall?
Mr. O'Connell. That was the end of it, except that we had
some repercussions, where he went back to his co
throne,
consternation in the Agency,
because that was the last guy that the Agency wanted to leave.
But he was communicating with her for a while, and then
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and was lovesick, and he was going to give up
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which would have caused all sorts of
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eventually we got her a job in a local musical
that is
really all that she was interested in, trying make it in the
theater. And they drifted off, and she subsequently married.
Mr. Wides. Did the Agency monitor the mail between him
and the lady, either before she got it or after she got it?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Wides. Before? Did they intercept the mail, or how was
the mail handled, through special channels?
Mr.O'Connell. We set up a post office box at his request,
and we serviced the box.
Mr. Wides. And would you look at the mail before it was
passed on?
Mr. O'Connell.. I wouldn't so
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Mr. Wides. Did the Agency?
Mr.
O'Connell. The agency
Mr. Wides. Did the leader know that?"
Mr. O'Connell.
NO
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Mr. Wides. And how did the letters go back and forth?
Mr. O'Connell. I don't now. We would just turn
the Division.
Mr. Wides. Did she understand that the Agency was some-
how involved in the passage of return mail from the lady
the world leader, that she just didn't drop it on the
mailbox on the corner?
She delivered
to somebody up in the field
recall don't ho me to that, but I think that
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our control.
was it and then it was sent down to headquarters..
Mr. Wides. Was it your impression that the Agency read
that mail, too, on its way back?
would imagine so, because it got out of
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Mr. Wides. Let me go back.
With regard to the mail coming in, is it your imagination,
you have information that the Agency was looki
at the letters?
told
Mr. O'Connell. II knew that was being done.
Mr. Wides. You know from personal knowledge, or you were
people involved?
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Mr.O'Connell. I was told, the people that were doing it 7
told me
Mr. Wides. That they were actually reading the mail and then
giving it to the lady?
Mr. O'Connell.
Mr. Wides. And as far as you know without either party being
aware the fact?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes
Mr. Madigan. Yousaid there was a second instance.
Was there a second ins nce which involved a female
in this country, or was it sending one overseas?
Mr. O'Connell. The girl was recruited in this country, but
she was sent overseas,
Mr. Madigan. And that was the leader you had told us abou-
earlier off the record?
Mr. O'Connell.
Mr. Madigan. And was that entire situation handled oversea
*when you once got over there?
Mr. O'Connell. Yes.
Mr. Madigan. Was there any business of the leader
coming back here with her?
Mr. O'Connell. Not with
He came back sometime, maybe
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a year later, and wanted know whether he could see her
again. And we made arrangements for her to attend the party
that was given by Kay Star, the singer. And they threw a
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little Cocktail party for him, I think it was in San Francisco
we had that gal, we got in touch with her again, and she
attend the party. But it was a social affair, and there was
no operation involved in it.
Mr. Madigan. Did Maheu set that up?
Mr. O'Connelll. Yes.
Mr. Mdigan. Both the original contact and the later party
in San Francisco?
Mr. O'Connell.
Yes.
Mr. Madigan. And were those the only two times now that
he was involved in the operations field?
Mr. O'Connelll. Oh, no. He did a lot of other things.
Mr. Madigan. Let me ask you this question.
When Maheu was having his problems with the authorities,
was there any reference back to his involvement in those kind of
activities, or was the only discussion about his role in
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the so-called assassination plot?
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Mr. O'Connell. Well, I am not
even so sure that they got
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into that aspect of it. It was just that he was involved
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to the extent that he had set up the operation against Rowan,
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or he was the one that got in touch with DuBois to do it.
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Mr. Wides. When did you come back from overseas?
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Mr. O'Connell. July of 1965.
Mr. Wides. After you came back did you learn of a time,
either after you came back or very shortly before you came
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Mr. O'Connell. Never, to my knowledge he never got
involved in that, officially or otherwise.
Mr. Wides. Or surreptitious entry?
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Mr. O'Connell. He did one surreptitious entry for us once.
Mr. Wides. What were the specifics of that?
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Mr. O'Connell.
There were a group of Iranian students.
The Agency was sponsoring them and they were going to the
Georgetown S hool of Linguistics. And they were staying
in a rooming house up there right outside of Georgetown some-
here. And one of the students came to the case officer.
said that one of the group was acting very suspiciously,
taking a lot of notes where they were not supposed to be taking
notes, or certainly after operational briefings, and he would go
back to his room and he would write voluminous notes. And
he thought that was very strange that this guy was not acting
And that aroused the suspicion the case officer.
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as he should.
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And they wanted to know whether we would get in and photo-
graph what he was writing to see whether he was really
violating his agreement.
So I called Maheu and he went up to the rooming house, and
he went to the people who owned the house and asked if they
had a room to rent and she had one. And he did know where the
students
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were staying.
And she showed him one room. And
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he said, anything up on thenext floor? And as luck would
have it, she had the adjacent room.
So he brought what would appear to be a suitcase up there,
which was his photographic equipment. And we knew the students
were in school, and the case officer was going to alert us if
they came back, so he wouldn't get caught in the act.
And he went in, it was a very simple matter. It was
a tin box that he could open with a paper clip and he took it out
and photographed it, and put the case back in the drawer and
locked up and left.
But the case officer was a gal, a woman. And she was
looking at one part of the school over there. And this guy
comes out the back door. And as Maheu was coming down the
stairs the students were coming up, with amatter of maybe
a split second timing.
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Mr. Madigan.
This wasn't Mendoz?
Mr. O'Connell.
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No. This was a DDP case officer.
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Mr. Wides. What period was this that we are talking
about?
Mr. O'Connell. This would have been about 1955.
Mr. Wides. And other than that, and the two incidents
involving female companioship, what other kinds of sensitive
things would he undertake? Was that in the period that you
were paying him 500 a month?
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Mr. O'Connell.
We stopped paying the 500 way back when he
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nature as opposed to routine?
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Mr. O'Connell. We had word that they wanted to
pparently this foreign leader had visited the Kremlin, and we
were reasonably certain
he was quite a lady's man, and he
liked just about any time to be accommodated
we knew that he went to the Kremlin and stayed fat.
Kremlin nd the Division wanted us to come up with a simulated
affilm that showed him going through the act of
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And they simulated a back drop that
ked like it
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a room in he Kremlin and outside
cording to what they had.
dfeverything, and the furniture was
And this was all done by people that knew generally what
they looked like.
Now, we got Bob to make that film.
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Mr. Wides. Is
at the Agency knew that the
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Soviets had made a film of the foreign leader when he was in
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Russia and was hoping to have a counterfeit film which they would,
circulate in the country, thereby making the foreign leader
angry at the Soviets, was that the purpose?
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Mr.O'Connell.
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I don't know whether they knew that the
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Soviets had made the film. But the purpose of the exercise
was to have a film circulated in his own country, or (
neighboring countries, that would make him quite upset with
the Soviets.
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Mr. Wides. You mean they thought that the Russians
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had made a film?
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Mr. O'Connell. Yes, to embarrass him.
Mr. Madigan. And that was accomplished as far as you know?
Mr.
O'Connell. The film was made, but they never did
release it, because things started to get better with the
leader, and they felt that they wouldn't use it.
Mr. Madigan. Were Agency facilities used by Maheu for
the production of this thing?
Mr. O'Connell . No. I hired a small independent studio in
Los Angeles.
Mr. Madigan. And did Agency officials fly out there,
the ones that knew about the backdrop and all that? How was
that done?
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Mr. O'Connell.
It seems to me that they were just
at this point I am not too sure whether they superimposed it,
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I am not so
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sure at this point, it has been so long ago. That was
away in
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Mr. O'Connell.
Yes.
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the mid-fifties.
Mr. Wides. Could we get back to the question that we had
started on, which was the files and where they would exist?
You said that the operational files from all of your dealing
with him would be in the Family Jewels, because they were all
sensitive admissions.

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Mr. O'Connell. No.
Mr. Wides. Or Max Gonzales.
Mr. O'Connell. No.
Mr. Wides. While you were down there and this
may overlap the question that Mr. Madigan asked before, but
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efforts apart from Mr. Verona by Cubans in connec-
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tion with the Agency to try and assassinate Castro?
Mr. O'Connell. No, none whatsoever.
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Mr. Wides. I don't have any other questions.
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Mr. Madigan. In your operational activities with Mr.
Maheu, particularly in the New York area, did you ever have con--
tact with a private investigator by the name of A. J.
Woolston-Smith?
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Mr. O'Connell. No, I never heard of him.
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Mr. Wides. Do you know why there were two field
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offices in New York, two iffices in Manhatten?
What was the difference?
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Mr. O'Connell.
The cover.
One was under Treasury cover
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and the other under Defense.
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Mr. Wides. Were there two offices?
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Mr. O'Connell.
Why, they had them, it just grew like
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Topsy. They had two offices in Washington, and they had two
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offices in New York. And really the basis it was that that
was the way they started, they figured they needed two
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different type covers because of the type of work they were
doing.
Mr. Wides. What would the New York offices do as dis-
tinct from the Manhattan offices, or vice versa?
Mr. O'Connell. Nothing. They were basically investigative
offices.
Mr. Wides. They just happened to have two?
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Mr.O'Connell.
They had two. One was downtown right off
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at the time was at 42nd, Street
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The Manhattan field office. And then they eventually merged.
Now they are over on Madison Avenue, I think.
Mr. Wides. Thank you very much. That concludes the session.
And we appreciate your staying so long.
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(Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the hearing was concluded.)
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