157-10002-10087
ti
No
2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date: 09/30/93
Page: 1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY: SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER: 157-10002-10087
RECORDS SERIES :
TRANSCRIPTR
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : R-352
ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
FROM :
TO :
TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL HALPERN
DATE: 06/18/75
PAGES: 89
SUBJECTS :
ASSASSINATION
CUBA
CASTRO
MAFIA
SPECIAL GROUP
BISSELL,
LANSDALE, EDWARD
HARVEY
OPERATION MONGOOSE
ZOGBEY
POISON
AMLASH
5412 COMMITTEE
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ZRRIFLE
TASK FORCE W
MAHEU, ROBERT
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T
RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS : P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93
OPENING CRITERIA :
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Box 245
Folder 9
COMMENTS :
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JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
Date: 09/30/93
Page:2
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The Chairman. The hearing will come to order.
I would like to ask Mr. Schwarz if he would give us a
brief synopsis of what we intend to question our witness
about this morning.
Mr. Schwarz. The witness this morning will only be a
single witness. He is Mr. Samuel Halpern.
He was in the
Far East, and I have now found out he was involved in the
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Sukarno moving and some alleged killing of an agent in
Tailand, which are collateral matters that we may want to
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take up with him at the end.
But he came back here in the fall of 1961 and was in-
structed as assistant to get into the Cuban matter. And
he will testify that he was told that they would proceed
to overthrow the Castro government, and that there were no
holds barred.
He will then describe the way in whch they worked
with the Special Group.
The Chairman. What was Halpern's position?
Mr. Schwarz. Halpern's position was as Executive
And Harvey, you will remember, was the
Assistant to Harvey.
man that was actually in charge of the Cuban position.
The Chairman. When are we going to get Harvey?
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Mr. Schwarz.
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He is coming next Wednesday morning.
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We are going to get some of this same conflict between
the no-holds-barred testimony, which in his mind I guess he
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chief.
Mr. Halpern. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwarz. Who else was present at that meeting?
Mr. Halpern. A Mr. Ghose Zogbey. He was my branch
Mr. Schwarz.
Is he alive today, or is he dead?
Mr. Halpern. He died last year.
Mr. Schwarz.
Approximately when in the fall of 1961
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did that meeting take place?
Mr. Halpern. About the middle of October 1961.
Mr. Schwarz. What instructions were you given by Mr.
Bissell at tht meeting?
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Mr. Halpern. Mr. Bissell said he had recently
and
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he didn't specificy the date or the time he had recently
been chewed out in the Cabinet Room of the White House by
borh the President and the Attorney General for, as he put
it, sitting on his ass and not doing anything about getting
rid of Castro and the Castro regime. His orders to both
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Mr Zogbey and to me were to plan for an operation to
accomplish that end.
Mr. Schwarz. Was any content put into the term
"get rid of", or was that the term that was used, and only
that term?
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it. There was
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Mr. Halpern. To the best of my recollection, that was
no limitation of any kind. Nothing was for-
bidden, and nothing was withheld. And the objective was to
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remove Castro and his regime.
Mr. Schwarz.
And did you talk about tactics at all
in that meeting, or was it just a general discussion about
getting organized.
Mr. Halpern. Just a general discussion as to what we would
do, how we would proceed, and what we would need. And at
that point I had no idea how many people were left on the staff
in the branch only having been on the job a day or a day and
a half.
Mr. Schwarz. Shorly after that time did you get put in
contact with a general?
Mr. Halpern. Yes, sir. General Lansdale.
Mr. Schwarz. And what was his function when you were
introduced to him?
Mr. Halpern. Both Mr. Zogbey and I were introduced
to him as the new chief of Operations for a government-wide
effort to accomplish the removal of Castro and the Castro
regime. This effort was to include not only CIA but the
Department of State and the Department of Defense. And
General Lansdale was to be the Chief of Operations for that
outfit.
Mr. Schwarz. And did you brief him about Cuba or did
he brief you about the operation, or what was the nature of that?
Mr. Halpern. No, we briefed him first in the old
Situation Room, what used to called the Ibell Building, which
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Mr. Halpern. It wasn't a matter of General Lansdale's
being in charge, or the Attorney General being in charge,
nobody objected to General Lansdale reporting to the Attorney
General.
It was a matter of whether this would be done through
the normal chain of command, or whether we would actually be
under the General's direct command.
Mr. Schwarz. But it still is a chracterization, you
were dealing with organization and bureaucracy?
Mr. Halpern. That is right. And drafting papers.
Mr. Schwarz. Drafting papers to do what?
Mr. Halpern. To try to get organized in terms of how
we would accomplish the objective.
Mr. Schwarz.Did any of those papers that you drafted
include any reference to assassination
in those early stages
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as
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a device to accomplish the objective?
Mr. Halpern. No, sir.
Mr. Schwarz. Now, did Mr. Helms enter the picture in
the latter part of December 1961?
Mr. Halpern. That is correct.
Mr. Schwarz. Describe how he came into the picture.
Mr. Halpern. To my knowledge, Mr. Zogbey described to
me a meeting he had been at at the Director's morning staff
this is Mr. McCone's morning staff meeting
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meeting
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which Mr. McCone, almost in terms of a bombshell for the
in
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group at the meeting, stated that Mr. Helms would henceforth
the words were, his man on Cuba. This was something
be
that nobody in the room apparently had any inkling of, and
particularly Mr.Helms, nor Mr Zogbey.
The Chairman. May I ask you to repeat that?
I am sorry, I just didn't catch it.
Mr. Halpern. At a meeting sometime in December 1961,
which was the morning staff meeting that the Director held, and
bes was present
Mr. Schwarz. But you were not?
Mr. Halprrn I was not, I got this from Mr. Zogby
the Director, Mr. McCone, announced that Mr. Helms would be
would then be the Chief of Operations
for the Deputy Director of Plans, and Mr. Bissell was in the
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his man on Cuba, Mr. Helms
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room as the DDP.
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Mr. Helms had no inkling of this before the meeting,
and so stated to
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Zogbey, and even asked
Zogby if he had
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had any inkling before the meeting.
MrZogbey told me that he had none whatsoever.
Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr. Helms then come and visit your
new organization and tell you to make some changes?
Mr. Halpern. Yes. He came to Mr Zogbey's office and looked
at the list of officers, male and female, who were still
working in the branch. Most of them were the remnants of the
people from the old Bay of Pigs operation who had not yet been
reassigned.
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involved in this operation? That was the first reference I
recall to a female operative.
Mr. Schwarz. There was no such previous evidence.
Mr. Halpern. We had a number of female officers, and
still do, in our branches. And there were some in the Cuban
branch and the Cuban task force.
Senator Huddleston. What types of activities did they
participate in?
Mr. Halpern.
Oh, recruting of agents, the handling
of agents, disseminating reports, preparing propaganda guid-
ances, preparing papers for a special group as appropriate,
doing the work of any other officer.
Senator Huddleston. Can you name one or suggest one
that was heavily involved in the assassination attempt?
Mr. Halpern. Oh, I don't know of any in the assassina-
tion attempt per se.
Senator Huddleston. You don't know of any?
Mr. Halpern. No, sir.
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Mr. Halpern. Yes, sir.
Mr.Bissell told Mr. Zogbey
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Senator Huddleston. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Mondale?
Senator Mondale. I am sorry I cam e in late, Mr. Hal-
pern, and missed some of your testimony. As I came in you
were saying that orders came from somewhere to get off your
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cers whose objective would be to plan for the overthrow of
the Castro regime.
Mr. Smothers. Was it your understanding that these
plans were to extend to assassination?
Mr. Halpern.
That word was not used, sir. But no
holds were barred, and we had no limitation.
Mr. Smothers. Let me ask you it another way. What was
your understanding of what Mr. Bissell had been told to do
by the President and the Attorney General?
Mr. Halpern. To get rid of Castro and the Castro regime
on the Island of Cuba.
Mr. Smothers. Did Mr. Bissell convey to you the idea
that that included killing Castro?
Mr. Halpern. The subject never came up per se.
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went back
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Mr. Smothers. What did you come away from that meeting
expecting to do?
And we
Mr. Halpern. We were very hard put to come upwwith
any real ideas. We didn't know what to do, frankly.
one thing we both agreed on, both Zogbey and
I, is that we were not going to come up with a piece of
paper which said this was going to be easy or could be done
overnight, or could be done with mirrors.
The Chairman. Did you come away after your conversation
with Mr. Bissell with the idea that he had instructed you
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to come up with a plan of some kind designed to overthrow,
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later.
The Chairman. I would like to take this and several
other questions up with the committee, one of which deals
with the question of the August recess And I want to
confer with you on that, too.
How many more questions do you have?
Mr. Schwarz. Instead of asking the other questions I will
ask whether he knows anything about them, and we could bring
him back later if he does.
Do you know anything about the film made in ord
rno by showing immoral activity on his
Mr. Halpern. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwarz. We will bring you back on that.
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part?
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The Chairman. Can we get that done now?
Mr. Schwarz. Such Film was made in Hollywood, was it?
Mr. Halpern. I don't know where it was made, sir,
but I know it was made.
Mr. Schwarz. It was made in the U.S.?
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Mr. Halpern. As far as I know it was.
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Mr. Schwarz. And was that done under your direction?
Mr. Halpern. Well, it was done at the Far East Division
request, and I was the one who did the negotiating with the
Office of Security.
Mr. Schwarz. And was the plan that a film would show
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odel who looked like Mr. Sukarno apurporting to have
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sexual ac tivity with some female, and that then the film
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would be released in Indonesia, and it would be attributed to
the Russians in some fashion?
Mr. Halpern. No, sir, that was not the plan at all.
Mr. Schwarz.
What was the plan?
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Mr. Halpern.
The plan was to have such a film from
kefilm which we could use in the propaganda
which we co Id
activity against Sukarno in terms of him being close to the
10 Russians, because the woman was supposed to be the Russian
blonde woman that was assigned to Mr. Sukarno as escort
fficer when he visited the Soviet Union, and then went back
and stayed with him for some time in Indonesia.
Mr. Schwarz.
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In short, it was a fake movie which was
designed to put Mr. Sukarno in an undesirable light, by
showing that he was having relations with some Russian
female?
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Mr. Halpern. And, therefore, in Russian control.
Senator Mondale. How was that film supposed to get to
Indonesia?
Mr. Halpern. It wasn't a film. The original plan was
to use clips from it in propaganda leaflets, and pamphlets,
and things like that, just pictures from the film.
Mr. Schwarz. Who authorized that?
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Mr. Halpern.
Mr. Ulmer, who was then Division Chief.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Do you know if any higher authority
authorized it?
know.
Mr. Halpern.
Mr. Schwarz.
Not offhand, no, sir, personally I don't
And was it done, or was it turned off?
I mean, the pictures were taken?
Mr. Halpern. The picture was taken, and that was the
end of it.
Mr. Schwarz. And Mr. Maheu was used to accomplish it?
Mr. Halpern. I have no idea whatsoever.
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Mr. Schwarz. And were the clips used in Indonesia?
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Mr. Halpern. No, they were not.
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Mr. Schwarz. Why not?
Mr. Halpern. We didn't have any proper outlets to
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get it done.
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Mr. Schwarz. You had the film, but you had no way to
distribute it in Indonesia
Mr. Halpern. Not the film, but the clips.
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Mr. Schwarz.
ou know
ue the killing o
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Mr. Halpern. The name is brand new to me, sir.
Mr. Schwarz. Do you know anything about the killing
employee or associ
Mr. Halpern. No, sir.
1950's?
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Mr. Schwarz.
hing
ut the burial of
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such a person,
called Der
cipated along with a
eter Joast?
כ4 !
Mr. Halpern.
That I participated?
No, sir.
<+
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Mr. Schwarz.
thing about
killing
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ngko
Mr. Halpern. No, sir. I was only in Bangkok, I think,
once in my life.
Mr. Schwarz. That doesn't ring a bell at all?
Mr. Halpern. No, sir.
Mr. Schwarz. Do you know about any other killings?
Mr. Halpern. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any other questions?
Senator Schweiker. I just want to say, Mr.Chairman, that
I would like to compliment the witness for some very clear and
impartial answers, instead of the partial amnesia that we have
run into lately.
And I think your kind of candor is very helpful to us
in this committee to do the job. And I think it was very
refreshing to hear some clear-cut specific recommendations of
what did or did not happen. I just want to thank you.
The Chairman.
I agree.
Thank you very much.
If there are no further questions, I think that completes
the interrogation.
(The witness left the hearing room.)
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