157-10002-10165
2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
Date: 10/05/93
Page:1
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY: SSCIA
RECORD NUMBER: 157-10002-10165
RECORDS SERIES :
TRANSCRIPT
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : R-696
ORIGINATOR : SSCIA
FROM:
TO :
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
TITLE :
TESTIMONY OF DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS
DATE: 07/31/75
PAGES: 178
SUBJECTS :
CIA
CUBA
CASTRO
LANSKY, MEYER
BAY OF PIGS
ASSASSINATION
!
TRAFFICANTE,
SANTOS
1
RUBY, JACK
CHILE
ALLENDE
OPERATION MONGOOSE
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : T
RESTRICTIONS: REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS: P.
DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 09/30/93
OPENING CRITERIA
Box 256
Folder 14
COMMENTS :
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Mr. Phillips.
I did not.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Did you know Jack Ruby?
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Mr. Phillips.
No, I did not.
Do youknow him under the name of Ruben-
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Mr. Schwarz.
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stein?
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Mr. Phillips. I did not.
Mr. Schwarz. What did you do between your work in Cuba
and the Chile matter which you were going to spend most of your
time on?
Republic as Chief of Statio
Mr. Schwarz. And then
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Mr. Phillips.
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After the Bay of Pigs business I went to
Mexico in late in 1961, and remained in Mexico until the very
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early part of 1965, when I was assigned to the Dominican
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Mr. Phillips. I stayed in the Dominican Republic until
the summer of 1967.
And after that I returned to Washington and became
the Chief of Cuban Operations through 1969.
In 1970 I went to Rio de Janiero as Station Chief. And
in 1971, I suffered the traumatic shock of being moved to
Brasilia from Rio de Janiero.
In 1972 I went to Venezuela as the Chief of Station
And in the summer of 1973 I was asked to return as Chief of
the then Western Hemisphere Division.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And is that the position you held until
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1 or the other which would enable you to form a judgment as
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to his attitude toward either the subject of assassination or
the question as to what kind of an explicit order would be
necessary in order to justify Agency actions to actually
assassinate some one.
Mr. Phillips. No, because I never heard Mr. Helms even
7 get that close to the edge of such talk about such and such an
option or possibility, I never heard him talk that way.
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Mr. Schwarz. Did you ever hear anybody in the Agency
talk that way?
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Mr. Phillips.
Under traumatic conditions I have heard
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human beings maybe with a few drinks or something like that
saying, my God, we would be better off if so and so were
bumped off or something.
But I have never heard two officers sit down and
seriously talk about such an option. And if anyone has ever
said that, it is the same way some people might get out of line
and say almost anything.
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Mr. Schwarz. Did you ever hear, in connection with
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cally a Major Marshall
the Chile operation, that certain Chilean officers, specifi-
to the CIA that they intended
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to assassinate Allende?
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Mr. Phillips. It was five years ago. But as I recall,
Major Marshall said a number of things. He was what I think
of as a wild man. I seem to recall something about, yes, a
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Mr. Schwarz.
And you offered through Colonel Wimer
2 whom we will come to in a moment, $50,000 if they could
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accomplish it, didn't you?
Mr. Phillips. I think that was the correct sum, yes.
mr. Schwarz. And you gave them prior to their attempt
on the 19th of October some tear gas and some gas masks to
help accomplish the kidnapping?
Mr. Phillips.
That is true.
Mr. Schwarz. And subsequently you provided to the Val-
enzuela group some machine guns, didn't you?
Mr. Phillips. That is ture.
Mr. Schwarz. And those were going to be used in a
kidnapping effort by the Valenzuela group, and you knew that,
didn't you?
Mr. Phillips. I recall that they were going to be
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America.
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used by the group, and that kidnapping was a part of their
plans. I can't recall that they said they needed them spe-
cifically for the kidnapping. I do recall that the reason was
the automatic reaction from Latin America is, why do people
need arms when they have got arms everywhere all over
Latin
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And they said something about, their own arms could be
identified, and they needed some that couldn't be identified.
I don't recall if it was specifically mentioned that it was
just for that. It was certainly understood that they might
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Consequently, I personally made this proposal, that we
establish what I called a false flag base of people that would
3 go from outside, and should there be any sort of flap, the
4 chances of linking it to the U.S. Government would be much
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less, because they would appear to be from another nationality.
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Mr. Schwarz. I would like to read to you a cable
--
is
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this cable of 27 September in the Senator's book? I know that
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he asked for it after I came over.
Mr. Treverton.
It is not.
Mr. Schwarz. I am going to read from a cable which
unfortunately is not in your book, but the key part is
relatively simple.
This is a cable, Mr. Phillips, dated September 27, 1970,
and it is signed by yourself and Mr. Broe. And it is sent to
the Station in Chile, and it contains the following about the
purposes of setting up the false flag office
Mr. Phillips. We call it a base.
Mr. Schwarz. False flag bases: "Each member of base
will enter and leave Chile with falst documents and operate as
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a representative of his country rather than as anAmerican".
That is right, isn't it?
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Mr. Phillips. That is true.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Continue:
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"Having at least one key Brazilian and one key Argentinian
25 would be vital, and we have candidates."
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And you did that.
Mr. Phillips.
Mr. Schwarz.
Yes.
And then it goes on as follows:
"These
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potential which cannot be done by Station personnel or any
Chilean."
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That is right, isn't it?
Mr. Phillips. That is true.
Mr. .Schwarz. And by flap potential you meant exposure?
Mr. Phillips. Contacting screwballs such as Marshall,
that sort of thing.
But generally pursuing the Track II
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Mr. Schwarz.
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Mr. Phillips.
That is right.
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Mr. Schwarz. Continuing: "An example. We have can-
didates who can successfully pose as Brazilian intelligence
officers." You did that, didn't you?
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. And this goes on: "If he approached, funded
and ran
a Chilean General, any flap would be a Brazilian one"
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. So the scheme was that not only would
the U.S. not be blamed, but other countries like Brazil would
be blamed if something went wrong.
Mr. Phillips. Yes, this is particularly sensitive to me,
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because my daughter happens to be married to a Brazilian
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reign service officer However, that was it. It was
a
3 devious move. It was the final result
amp ma
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the idea being that
if such a flap did occur, someone would think it was someone
other than the U.S. The idea of false flag operations is
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not a new one. The idea I had of going to someone and saying,
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why don't you be a spy for us, I don't work for the Soviets,
is not true.
But this is sort of new, the fact that action agents
should pose as others. And yes, it is devious, but that
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was the idea.
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Senator Hart of Colorado.
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Mr. Phillips, what were
their instructions if they were to be caught? Were they to go
to their death swearing they were Brazilians or whatever?
Mr. Phillips. I don't think it was quite that dramatic,
Senator. They came to Washington before they went down. And
I briefed them, and I think what I said to them was, this
is going to be a tough and sensitive one, and you don't have
to go if you don't want to, because you culd get in real trouble.
And if you get in trouble, I am not sure we can help
you.
So, they shrugged their shoulders and went.
Mr. Schwarz. Did you tell the Brazilians that you were
sending someone down to pose as a Brazilian, and his instruc-
tions were that if he were caught he was to continue to pose
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as a Brazilian and the Brazilians were approached?
Mr. Phillips.
dreams to do that.
Mr. Schwarz.
It never occurred to us in our wildest
I suppose the relationships between con-
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very important to preserve, and that we had very close and
delicate relationships with the other intelligence services.
Mr. Phillips. We do. And if there had been such a
man the Brazilians would be quite unhappy with us. But I
thought that was better than letting the world know that was
a U.S. Citizen down there.
Mr. Schwarz. You go on in the cable of September 27
to say this:
"Headquarters believes this false flag was manned by
officers who have repeatedly proved their ability to operate
and recruit under false colors, will give Station great flexi-
bility in handling delicate and fast-moving situations secure-
ly."
So, the use of false flag persons, at least judging
from this cable, is something repeatedly done by the CIA?
Mr. Phillips. Yes, and by all intelligence services
not all, but all major intelligence services. If you are living
overseas and a man comes up to you and says, hey, I see you
are a Marxist, and a man comes up and says, I am from Havana
and we would like you to work with the Cuban intelligence
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service, he might not be from Havana, he might be from the
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So, it is not an unusual practice.
Mr. Schwarz.
Incidentally, you just let drop one thing
in your testimony a moment ago. You said that in your 25-year
involvement with intelligence matters you had been bothered
by your activities on only two occasions, one of which was
Chile.
And then you said what the other one was. What was that?
Mr. Phillips. I was in Washington attending the Chiefs
of Station course, which is a training course for people who
are going out on their first assignment as Chief of Station.
When President Johnson decided to send 22,000 Marines
to the Dominican Republic, it occurred to me that in order to
protect and evacuate American citizens, that that job might
have been done with 400 Marines. I was scheduled to go there
as the Chief of Station. And I just wasn't sure that I
wanted to be associated with something like that. But I de-
cided, well, I suppose President Johnson knows what he is
20 doing, I will go I am going to go along. So, I did go
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along.
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Senator Schweiker.
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One question on your differentiation
between where you drew a personal commitment line on assassin-
ations, but not overthrow. I have trouble quite understanding
it, because as I understand Chile, the plot was to overthrow
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Mr. Phillips.
There is no question that I could under-
2 stand why anyone concerned with world affairs, looking at
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Chile and what was happening there, would be concerned.
Salvadore Allende made his first statement saying that
he was a Socialist and wanted to change the order some 32
years beforehe was elected.
Over the years he made it quite clear that he was an ar-
Before this decision was made I believe that
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dent socialist.
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we had a visit from a man who had the code name of ghrely he
was a Cuban intelligence officer. The Cubans were moving in
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at stake, another Cuba in Latin America type of thing, the
same thing perhaps that motivated President Johnson to send
22,000 rather than 400.
So, I can understand why they thought this was going,
in the long strategic sense, in the long range against our
interests.
But that is an assumption.
It is true that Allende very definitely made it clear
that he wanted to turn Chile into a Marxist state. The differ-
ence was that Allende refused to take Fidel Castro's advice
and use violence. As I understand it, Fidel Castro went to
Chile and said, if you want your revolution to last you are
going to have to use violence.
I found it interesting to read in this morning's paper
where someone from Portugal came back from Cuba and said,
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activities?
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Mr. Phillips.
No, sir. I was the Station Chief in
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Rio de Janiero in Brazil, and was called back in 1970 for
six or seven weeks for what we are referring to as Track II.
Senator Mondale. Now, in that position you familiarized
yourself with the Chilean government, Allende and so on,
and tried to become as expert as you could in the political
forces and so on?
Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
And in addition to that, Senator,
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one of the reasons I was called back was that I had lived
for many years in Chile, so I knew something about it.
Senator Mondale. And it is your judgment as I think I
just heard, that although Allende was a Marxist, and espoused
Marxism, he also said he wanted to achieve this through the
democratic process, and although there was some rough stuff
on the press, and so on, essentially that was the course he
was pursuing, is that correct?
Mr. Phillips.
I don't recall that he said it, but
he indeed acted that way.
Senator Mondale. But in fact the course he was pur-
suing was an attempt to achieve the Marxist philosophy with
the population support under constitutional system?
Mr. Phillips. Yes, essentially that is true, sir.
Senator Mondale.
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Thank you.
I would like to read to you in connection
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assignment by the President and by the White House?
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Mr. Phillips. Senator, it doesn't make any difference
3 today. On the contrary, since Watergate the people say, why
should we? Before Watergate it was another ball game.
5 The President was the Commander in Chief in every sense of the
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word.
And you said, who am I, a GS-15 bureaucrat, to say that
we shouldn't do this? But that has changed since Watergate.
Senator Hart of Colorado. One other question.
I call your attention in our briefing books to what is
Tab C, a cable which has your name at the end of it dated 21
September 1970, page 3 of 7. Are you an author or co-author
of that cable?.
Mr. Phillips. I believe I was the authenticating
officer, yes.
Senator Hart of Colorado. What does that mean?
A
Mr. Phillips. That meant that the signature on the
right of those cables is someone that is the authenticating
officer in a sense, here is a fellow that is supposed to know
the situation.
Senator Hart of Colorado. But who wrote it, I guess
is what I am after.
Mr. Phillips. I would guess that this cable was probably
written by Mr. Poinzio, and perhaps myself, perhaps it was
joint. But Mr. Poinzio wrote an awful lot of them. But by
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putting my signature on the authenticating part I said I was
a part of it. And then, of course, the releasing officer is
the one that accepts the responsibility.
Senator Hart of Colorado.
Page 3 of 7 which has
the paragraph identified as the paragraph F contains the follow-
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ing sentence or part of a sentence: You suggest sending
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us cables outlining objectives and course of events, et
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cetera, and he said, always conditioned by the fact that we have
seriousness that I am not the author of that phrase.
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to keep our feet in the mud of practicality, and our eyes
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on the stars.
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What does that mean in Agency talk?
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Mr. Phillips.
Senator, I want to assure you with real
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Senator Hart of Colorado. It must have caught your eye,
however.
Mr. Phillips. It did catch my eye. If this was indeed
a joint venture, I can promise that that was Dino Poinzio
contribution, and if you ever meet him you will understand
why. He was addicted to picturesque speech. And looking
back, all I can say is that it probably went out at four
o'clock in the morning, and we were very tired, and I just
didn't want to argue about that phrase, and I let it go. I
am not sure what it means even now.
Senator Hart of Colorado.
Neither am I. But it seems
to describe a lot of what we have heard around here for the
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Now, I read that as Helms' position being that the
2 assassination of Schneider was something which presented the
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opportunity for the very thing that the U.S. wished to have
done.
Do you agree with me?
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Mr. Phillips. No, I can't agree with you on that.
I am
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not sure about the suggestion from the language.
But I will
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tell you the immediate reaction in our little task force when
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the word came that Schneider was dead, that is it, it is finishe
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Knowing Chileans, the moment that that violence occurred,
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Chileans, with the possible exception of a nut such as
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Marshall, immediately said, this is it, that is enough.
was still that tradition over the years. And I think that the
moment we heard of it and we discussed it we said, that is
it, there will be no more. In many countries in Latin America
that would have been the signal for further action, weakness,
and so forth. But in this case it was the end of the
business.
Mr. Schwarz. I want to run through with you the activi-
ties which were being undertaken with the Valenzuela group
and with the Viaux group. In the case of Viaux, was that one
of the assignments that the false flag officers had?
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. And in the case of Valenzuela, was that
one of the assignments that Colonel Wimert had?
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Mr. Phillips.
Wimert Yes, I believe it was Colonel
2 Wimert that was in touch with that group.
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Mr. Schwarz.
didn't they?
And the two teams worked in tandem,
Mr. Phillips.
Are you referring to Chilean teams?
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Mr. Schwarz. No, the false flag team and Colonel.
Wimert.
Mr. Phillips. Only in the sense that there might have
been some central direction from the office or from headquar-
ters. I don't believe that anyone of the false flaggers had
the slightest idea that Colonel Wimer was working with us.
And I don't believe that Colonel Wimert I don't know that
Colonel Wimert knew about them.
So, no, they didn't work in tandem, except in sense of
direction from the Station.
Mr. Schwarz.
Headquarters down there, and you in
Washington, were working with both the Valenzuela groupand
the Viaux group?
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tible.
Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir.
Senator Hart of Colorado. Are you in a chain here,
counsel?
Mr. Schwarz. I am in a chain, but it is easily interrup-
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Senator Hart of Colorado.
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chronologically
Mr. Phillips, did we
maybe the staff can answer that, I am just
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Viaux group was really acting in order to carry out step one
of the Valenzuela group's plan?
Mr. Phillips. Yes, to address this point specifically.
Obviously when the guns were passed through Colonel Winert.
5 and the death occurred so soon after, immediately we
thought they probably used those guns. It was then when we
read the press reports that General Schneider died from hand-
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gun wounds. And that was the first time we thought we could
really be sure in our own mind that it wasn't directly
the Valenzuela group using those guns.
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been furnished
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Mr. Schwarz. What about the gas masks that had
earlier? WAsn't there evidence that there
were gas masks in the care of the persons who attempted to
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Mr. Phillips. I don't recall. There may very well have
been, but I am not real sure about that.
Mr. Schwarz. I am going to go to another area, which
is the relationship (with Colonel Wimert. If there are any
questions on the relationship between the two groups.
Senator Hart of Colorado. Concerning the October 19
attempts, under Tab 4 on page 7 of the longer memorandum
by Dianne LaVoy under October 18 there is reference to a cable
A66 dated October 19. And concerning the connection of
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these various conspirators, it says:
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S Army attache and gives him a 15 point plan for coup to be
"Valenzuela meets with
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carried out on October 19. The Huerth, who was head of the
Carabineros, witting of the above plan, has promised to keep
the Carabineros away from the Schneier houseto assure that the
abduction will not be interferred with. General Viaux is
knowledgeable of the above operation, but is not directly
involved."
What do you think "not directly involved" refers to?
Why not just not involved?
Mr. Phillips. I think that probably referred to what
I was saying before, that in these situations it is not very
unusual that there is not some talk that everybody has a cousin
that works with some group type of thing.
And I believe that it must refer to that.
Mr. Schwarz.
Taking the actual cable, is the actual
cable in the Senator's books?
Mr. Inderfurther.
No.
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Mr. Schwarz. Let me read the full text of that para-
graph from the cable. It is a cable apparently dated 19
October on the subject of General Viaux:
"General Viaux, knowledgeable of above operation, but not
directly involved.
He has been sent to Vina to stay with
prominent physician. Will be seen in public places during 19
and 20 October to demonstrate fact that above operation is
not his doing. Will be allowed to return to Santiago at end of
week."
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Now, I can't read that language any way other than
meaning that the Valenzuela group and the Viaux group were in
close cooperation, that was part of the abduction plan, it
was agreed between the two that Viaux would appear
--
would
be out of town so that he would not appear to be involved.
And you have to read that, do you not, as meaning that there
was a close cooperation on this effort between the two groups.
Mr. Phillips. Yes, I think you do have to read it that
way.
Miss Culbreth. Would you identify that paper more
than just the statement?
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Mr. Phillips. Cable sent to headquarters A66.
13
Mr. Schwarz. No. A66, eyes only to
14
Mr. Inderfurth. DCOS, which was Hecksher."
15
Mr. Treverton. It is Tab M, it is in the book.
16
Mr. Schwarz. I think we ought to mark that as an ex-
17
hibit.
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(The document referred to was
marked Phillips Exhibit No. 2
for identification.)
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As for the narrow part of your question, by all means
it is a bad way to do business.
Senator Schweiker.
Mr. Schwarz.
Go ahead.
Picking up on Senator Schweiker's line
of quesioning, would you show the witness Tab A, the docu-
ment Tab A.
It is a memorandum for the record by Mr. Broe dated 17
September, and then that is crossed out and it says 16 Sep-
tember, "Subject, Genesis of Project".
Incidentally, what was the code name for this project?
Was it FU Belt?
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Mr. Phillips. Beltway or FU Belt, one of the two.
Mr. Schwarz. Does FU stnd for anything in particular?
Mr. Phillips. Chile So it would be FU. The first two/
letters there indicate a geographical araa. So it would be a
16 lot of different ones, but that would mean Chile. FU Belt,
15
means Chile. Belt means nothing.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Everybody keeps saying that so many of
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these things mean nothing. Who is responsible for these
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names?
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Mr. Phillips.
There is somebody who is supposed to have
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a big liest to make sure that they were not duplicated.
And I think sometimes there is a pixie-like quality that comes
out in those things.
Senator Schweiker. That is an understatement, to call
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Mr. Phillips. But many times the cryptonums mean ab-
solutely nothing, they have no meaning at all.
Senator Schweiker..
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SRRIFLE, ROGUE ELEPHANT
Mr. Phillips.
I am sorry, sir.
6
Senator Schweiker.
We have come across a few other good
7
ones.
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Mr. Schwarz. I don't know if you have ever seen that
document, and it doesn't matter. But the end of paragraph 2
indicates that the instructions from the President concluded:
"The Agency is to carry out this mission without
coordination with the Department of State or Defense".
13
Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
14
Mr. Schwarz.
And that was your instruction?
15
Mr. Phillips.
That is correct.
16
Mr. Schwarz.
Now, in fact, of course, you did use in
17
Chile a man called Colonel Wimert.
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Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
19
Mr. Schwarz.
And he was in the Defense Department?
20
Mr. Phillips.
That is correct.
Mr. Schwarz.
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And he was assigned
to take his instructions only from the CIA inChile, is that
right?
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he was instructed
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Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
Mr. Schwarz.
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And he was instructed indeed not to tell
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his superior in Chile, the man who was in charge of the
2 defense attache system down there?
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Mr. Phillips. That is true, sir.
Mr. Schwarz. Wimert was the man from the Army and then
there was someone else in the Air orce, the Navy and there
was a boss?
Mr. Phillips. That is right.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And Wiment was told not to tell that boss?
Mr. Phillips. I believe that is true, yes.
Mr. Schwarz.
Now, how did it happen that Colonel Wiment
came to work for and under the direction of the CIA?
Mr. Phillips.
I believe the explanation for that was
14
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17
the fact that Colonel Wimert had been around Latin America,
spoke perfect Spanish, his hobby was riding horses, and he
15 developed really marvelous relationships with the military of
officers that he had contact with. And I think it was just
that someone recognized the fact that if we had been given the
task of getting a coup going using the military, why not take
advantage of the one man in Chile that they liked the most,
trusted the most, and saw the most? It was perfectly natural
for him to spend his weekends with these people.
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Mr. Schwarz. And so he was a natural and helpful asset.
But how was it arranged that he would work for the CIA, and
lay that question against the instruction from President
Nixon that the Defense Department was not to know, how did
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you accomplish it?
Mr. Phillips. I don't know. I have had my memory
3 refreshed by looking at some documents now, and I know
that someone came and gave me the piece of paper in this book
5 that has been signed by General Philpott which was a message
6
to Wimert saying, cooperate with the CIA.
What the process
7
was for getting that approval, or who went to see Philpott,
I wasn't involved with that, I just don't recall.
9
Mr. Schwarz.
Did you ever see Philpott ?
10
Mr. Phillips.
I never did.
11
Mr. Schwarz.
Did you ever see
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Mr. Phillips. I may have seen Philpott in some large
meeting or something like that, but I don't recall any
14
meeting with any of the generals.
was relatively too junior
15
to have attended these meetings.
This would have been Mr.
16 Broe, Mr. Karamessines, and so forth.
And I would have been
17
left back in the shop, sort of, I think.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And did you ever see or talk to Bennett?
Mr. Phillips. Not to my recollection. I think not.
Mr. Schwarz. I asked you if you ever saw General Phil-
pott, or did you ever talk to General Philpott?
Mr. Phillips. I don't recall such a talk. During this
entire period, for instance, I never went outside of our build-
ing. I was there sort of in the shop. And other people would do
that sort of thing.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Is that the form in which you sent the
2 message which is contained in Exhibit 3 to Chile?
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Mr. Phillips. It is.
Mr. Schwarz. Now, apparently Exhibit 4, which you
drafted initially, said that it was from General Bennett, and
then it was changed to say it was from General Philpott.
Did you make that change?
Mr. Phillips. That is my handwriting above that said
Philpott, and someone else's handwriting below that said
Bennett. I think the signature on the original document
But that is my change there.
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was from Philpott.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And is the change on the second page
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the sentence reads:
"Do not allow Colonel Wimert to retain copy of this
message", and then in handwriting it is asserted "Note that
General Bennett is out of the country".
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Mr. Phillips.
Yes, that is my handwriting.
Having seen that, and these changes, what
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Mr. Schwarz.
do you recall about the circumstances that led you to make
those changes?
Mr. Phillips. It is possible that this message is one
of the rare messages that sometimes occur, that you are handed
something that is written out, and there is no secretary,
and it is two o'clock in the morning or something like that.
On some occasions you will take a very rough draft and ask
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the communicators to send that, and youwill then later write
2 for the record, and have typed for the record the formal cable.
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I am not sure about that.
Mr. Schwarz. You think what you sent used General Ben-
nett's name and not General Philpott's name?
Mr. Phillips. I don't recall. But I believe if that had
been the case that not only would the change have been made,
but there would have been some sort of note on the side or
something. So, I believe that the original must have said
Philpott.
But I can't be absolutely positive.
Mr. Schwarz. But the original typed version on the
first page used Bennett's name, right?
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. Now, I am puzzled, because if you had
previously obtained the document which is Exhibit 3, the
"suggested message to be sent. to Army attache from General
17
Bennett", and which is in fact signed with a name that
18
purports to be General Philpott's, if you had obtained that
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before drafting the typed message, I take it you would have used
Philpott's name in the typed message and not Bennetts'.
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. . So that suggests that you typed the typed
message before you obtained the document which is Exhibit 3
that has Mr. Philpott's signature?
Mr. Phillips.
No, I would not have done that. I would
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wasn't aware of this.
Mr. Schwarz. After that initial occasion involving
the use of Philpott's name in order to instruct Wimert to
work for the CIA, was anybody from the Defense Intelligence
Agency further brought into the operation which we have been
calling Track II?
Mr. Phillips.
My answer to that until a few minutes
ago would have been, I don't recall that. I have seen a document
since then that indicates that someone else was talked to
later. If I knew that I had forgotten it, or perhaps never
knew it
I must have known it if I saw the message.But
until I saw this thing, to refresh my memory I would have
said, I think that Philpott was the man.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Was the man, and was only contacted on
15
that one occasion?
16
Mr. Phillips.
As far as I know, that one occasion.
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But I didn't necessarily know what was outside of my little
room with windows, and so there were other people doing other
things.
Mr. Schwarz. Let's then look at the other documents.
Would you mark Tab G as Exhibit 5.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And this is a cable releasing officer Willia
2 Broe, authenticating officer David A Phillips, dated Octo-
J ber 14, 1970, from CIA headquarters to Santiago, CIA.
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5
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And it says:
"Please deliver the following message ('destroy immedi-
ately') to Colonel Wimert eyes only from Lieutenant General
Bennett.
"
Now, on what basis did you authenticate that message
which purports to be to Colonel Wimert from Lieutenant General
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Bennett?
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Mr. Phillips.
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Obviously
C
not obviously, but because
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I presume in this case. I am sure in this case once again
there was a document that was handed to me and I was told,
send this down. ⠀ In order to make this point, I was in there,
and it was sort of a direct operational thing, and when I
authenticated them I did it because I knew what was going on.
If Bill Broe, my boss, came in and said, here is a document
that we want to send, or if Tom Karamessines said, I worked on
the assumption that they were passing on to me the authority
to authenticate, and I didn't necesarily turn to them and say,
hey
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Mr Schwarz.
Prove that
Mr. Phillips. Prove that you have been talking with
General Bennett
Mr. Schwarz.
I obviously didn't do that.
Then mark as Exhibit 6 an undated docu-
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ment headed "Destroy immediately" from LTG Bennett tor Colonel
2 Winert "Eyes only".
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(The document referred to was
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Mr. Schwarz. Now, that purports to be from LTG Bennett
Colonel Wiment, and has the text in it which you sent on
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nel Wimert
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. And what is your best recollection as to
who handed you that document?
Mr. Phillips. I cannot say definitely who did that.
There were many occasions when Bill Broe would walk into the
10
office and say, here is something to send. There were others
which would come in a manila envelope with a yellow
forwarding slip on it. There are times, I am sure, when I
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would go into Bill Broe's office, and he would say, by the
way, send this.
14
I simply cannot recall the circumstances
in which some-
15
one handed me that and said, send it to Chile. And I was paying
16
less attention to those things, because I was in effect the
17
postman for people doing other things.
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Mr. Schwarz. Do you have any recollection at all
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about this document?
Mr. Phillips. No, I am afraid I don't.
Mr. Schwarz.
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What is your reading of the signature on
that document?
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Mr. Phillips.
Well, it certainly looks like the sig-
nature which was on the other document which was said to be
25 Philpott's. But I am not an authority on these things.
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military attache. And those instructions went down. Apparently
it would appear that there might be something here where they
are going to bring in more people, as is known to several per-
sons, it says down here.
And itmay have been because there was an attempt there
not to say to these new people, by the way, we want to talk
to you about something we are doing that we have kind of
already done. That is theonly thing I can come up with. I
can't give you a better explanation than that.
10
Mr. Schwarz.
This you characterize also as a puzzling
11
and strange document?
12
Mr. Phillips.
Yes. And I am sorry that I can't be
13
more helpful on this. But I was treating these
date com
these things
15
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on them.
14 were coming through my mail shoot, and I was putting headings
Even though I signed them and so forth, I wasn't
paying the attention to things that I did to my own job.
That is an explanation that deals with
some of the earlier documents. But here in the first place
you were both the releasing officer and the authenticating
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Mr. Schwarz.
officer.
And second, this is not simply taking some other message
and putting a heading on it, is it? This is a substantive
document purporting to explain a problem to your CIA Station
Chief in Santiago, right, do you agree with that?
Mr. Phillips.
I do. And I agree that it is puzzling,
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and there are some holes here.
Perhaps I can be helpful when
2 you have further testimony on this to help me job my memory.
3
5
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0
I can't remember the rationale for this.
Mr. Schwarz.
Let's take some of the statements that
are in the telegram and deal with them specifically.
Paragraph 2: "There seems little doubt this will
confuse Colonel Wimert
It has confused all of us here, so I suppose it would
have confused him.
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"Background for his information:
and Philpott have been briefed by Broe".
Who told you that?
Mr. Phillips.
both Generals Bennett
I don't know for sure, but I presume
this must have been Bill Broe.
Mr. Schwarz. Do you have any recollection of his telling
you that?
Mr. Phillips. I do not. But I don't think that I
I don't see myself releasing that cable without being sure that
Broe knew what was going out in that cable. In other words,
that is hthe kind of cable that I wouldn't have released
21 just because someone else came in and said that sort of thing.
This cable I think must have originated either with a dis-
N N N N
23 cussion with Broe that said, look, send the following word,
write up something like this, or perhaps some notes, and say,
do a cable from it, or just as possible
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and I can't read it
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here
is the fact that it was actually drafted by someone
2 else that was working in my shop,
Pionzio, or someone
3 else, that went in and talked to Broe. Maybe I was doing some-
4
thing else, and they came to me with a typed thing and said,
5
here, I cleared this with Broe, and so he signed both things.
So I really can't remember.
Mr. Schwarz. Under either assumption, either that Broe
spoke to you directly or that someone on your staff
spoke to Broe, you had Broe around at the time this cable goes
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. Then why wouldn't he sign it?
Mr. Phillips. Here is one thing. At the time the cable
I can't remember well enough if it was late at
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out?
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went out
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night.
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Mr. Schwarz.
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Mr. Phillips.
Mr. Schwarz. Does the time up above indicate 11:59?
Mr. Phillips. Where do you see that?
Mr. Schwarz. In the upper lefthand corner. It has
a date 14 October 17, and right above that is 11:59
Mr. Phillips.
Right.
in the customary place for the time.
I don't see that on this copy..
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The point I am trying to make is, if Mr. Broe were
leaving the office and we had gone through this exchange, and
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he had done it with someone else in my office, he might well
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and saying, look, we want you to go along with this and use
2 ×Colonel Wimert down there, he is really important to us, and
3 that sort of thing, and was perhaps slightly embarrassed
4
by the fact that they had been doing that before. That is the
1
5
7
8
only explanation I can give.
Mr. Schwarz.
So you would assume that these new
interested parties and the several persons referred to in
the two sentences are persons who were in higher authority
than Bennett and Philpott?
Mr. Phillips. I assume that, but do not know. I just
this thing was being so closely held, it just doesn't seem
logical to me that they would start going outside and down,
I thought that they would go outside and up. But I say, I
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only assume that.
15
Mr.Schwarz.
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being sort of puzzling.
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Speak wit
You have characterized Exhibit 7 as itself
And the situation it deals with, as
you now describe it, is one that is kind of ticklish, isn't it?
Mr. Phillips. I understand.
Mr. Schwarz. The CIA had been using Wimert, and knew
some people in higher authority than General Bennett, which
would mean very senior in the Defense Department, right?
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Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
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Mr. Schwarz. Or outside the Defense Department, but
very senior persons. They apparently are expressing an in-
25
terest, and according to this telegram, or your reconstruction
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of it, General Bennett and General Philpott feel that they are
embarrassed to refute the fact that they had already been doing
the work for the CIA through Colonel Wimert.
Now, all those things were not ordinary garden variety
5 daily events, were they?
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Mr. Phillips.
They were not.
7
Mr. Schwarz.
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You don't remember this at all?
Mr. Phillips. No, and I didn't want to imply that it
was necessarily because General Philpott would have been
embarrassed, it could have been within CIA as well.
But this rather unusual step was made because of the
talents of the military men, to bring him into a program
that you weren't even talking with the State Department about.
And so that indeed was unusual to a great degree. And I am
really very sorry to appear to be so vague about these things
that I obviously had something to do with.
But my explanation is that I was doing a certain job,
and that other people were outside, and Mr. Karamessines would
be talking with Mr. Helms about something, and this, that and
the other, and I was on the day-by-day operation side, and when
someone would come in and say, we want something to go down
to Wimert, and it has something to do with General Philpott,
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I didn't pay the kind of attention I would to it if it had
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been one of our operations.
Mr. Schwarz. Go back up to the beginning at paragraph 2
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there were it says, "There is no doubt that this will confuse
2 Colonel Wimert.
3
Background for his information".
Now, there are two ways in which those words "for his
4 information" can be read. One is that it is the genuine
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background.
The other is that it is a story to be given Wimert for
his information, which is the fact, if you know, and which way
doyou read it if you do not know what the facts are?
Mr. Phillips. I assume that it is the true story, because
nowhere during this period did I encounter anything, nor do
11 I remember anything that I thought was devious to the extent
12 of falsehood in putting something down like that.
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So, I assume that it is really for his background of
what happened.
Mr. Schwarz. And you don't remember from where you got
the information which you provided in this cable?
Mr. Phillips. I do not. Perhaps I can be more helpful
after you talk to others. But I simply do not.
Mr. Schwarz. The last paragraphs make the notation
"that we must advise General Bennett time when Wimert shown"
the telegram which is Exhibit 3.
Did you advise General Bennett?
Mr. Phillips. I did not. If it was done
and I
I was not involved, and wouldn't have been
presume it was
involved. And they would not have sent me over to see General
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know that it was.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Which is the tab at which the reply
130
from Wimert is located? Is it K?
Mr. Treverton. K, yes.
Mr. Schwarz. Would you mark as the next exhibit, Exhibit
8, another cable to headquarters, "Eyes only for Lieutenant
General Bennett from Colonel Wiment
(The document referred to was
marked Phillips Exhibit No. 8
for identification.)
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Mr. Schwarz. Can you tell from the face of it, are we
correct that this is a document that was sent from the CIA
station in Santiago to CIA headquarters purporting to come
from Colonel Wimert and purporting to be directed to Lieutenant
4
5
General Bennett?
6
Mr. Phillips.
That is true.
7
Mr. Schwarz.
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In the ordinary course to whom would
such a cable go? And the second question, who would have the
responsibility of passing information on to General Bennett?
Mr. Phillips. In the ordinary course of events this cable
would have come to me where I was working in the sense of an
info copy and this, that and the other.
The action on this cable would have certainly have gone
at least to Mr.Broe, and possibly higher, because it says,
this is his message to the head of another government
service. And so it would have gone to that level.
Mr. Schwarz.
And in the ordinary course it would have
come to you first, and then it would have been passed on to
either Mr. Broe or someone higher to take action?
Mr. Phillips. For action
not always. Sometimes a
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cable will come in and there will be more than one copy.
And right away the action copy will go to the other fellow, and
then you get the information copy, and so forth.
Mr. Schwarz.
Can you tell from the face of this cable
25 whether there would have been more than one copy?
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Mr. Phillips. There is no indicator to say who it went
Mr. Schwarz.
Does the "eyes only"have any significance
to you in the third line?
Mr. Phillips. Only in the sense that what (Colonel
Wiment was saying was, this may go over to the Defense Depart-
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Mr. Schwarz.
Did it go to General Bennett?
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Mr. Phillips. I do not know.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And did you pass it to someone?
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Mr. Phillips. If it did not go it would have been
13 highly unusual for a message to come in from overseas saying,
14 give this to the head of another Agency, and for it not to
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be delivered it would have been extremely unusual.
Mr. Schwarz. What would be the normal form of its
delivery? Would there be a cover note put on it?
Mr. Phillips. It would have probably been folded
into an envelope and delivered by hand. Because if it is
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through a communications channel, it means that they are going
to be operators of machinery to see it, and so forth. If
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an American Ambassador overseas wants to get a very sensitive
message up he has the option of sending it to us and saying,
will you please hand carry this over to the Secretary of State?
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Mr. Schwarz. This message states:
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"Please deliver the following message, ('destroy imme-
pursuant to P.L. 102-526 exce 1') to Colonel Wimert eyes only from Lieutenant General
No DoD objection to public disclosure
1/12/9/4
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Bennett." And the message was:
"For your information suspen-
sion temporarily imposed on MAP and FMS has been rescinded".
What are MAP and FMS.
Mr. Phillips.
Military Assistance of some kind or
another, Military Arms Procurement, or something like that.
Mr. Schwarz.
Military Assistance Program?
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Mr. Phillips.
That is probably it.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And what is FMS?
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Mr. Inderfurther.
Foreign Military Sales.
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Mr. Schwarz. Continuing:
"This action does not,
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contrary, it is intended to place us in a posture in which
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we can formally cut off assistance if Allende elected and
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situation develops as we anticipate.
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of situation".
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Request up date
Now, Bennett's job at that time was what?
Mr. Phillips. I believe he was the Chief of DIA.
Mr. Schwarz. Defense Intelligence Agency?
Mr. Phillips. Yes.
Mr. Schwarz. Is the Defense Intelligence Agency
responsible for decisions to military assistance programs?
Mr. Phillips. My opinion is that they are not.
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Mr. Schwarz.
And they don't really have anything to
do with that, do they?
Mr. Phillips.
I would gather from this message that
it is simply an explanation from it says General Bennett
Wimert, to explain something. As a part of Track I, and the
whole business, all of these different options were being
looked at and people were saying, let's don't help them with
military things because it looks like Allende is going to get
in. And the decision was made, well, let's go ahead
and do it. And this was apparently sort of a request for
Colonel Wimert to give him some rationale behind it when he
trying to foment the coup,
away
saying, why is the U.S. Government still helping this govern-
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was down there running
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I am speculating. But this was another one of those
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messages quote unquote which went in our channels.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Who gave you this message?
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Mr. Phillips. I do not remember.
Mr. Schwarz.
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Mr. Phillips.
You have no recollection whatsoever?
Sir, it is five years ago, and there are
a lot of messages, and as I said, these were the ones that
I was the least interested in in the sense of being involved,
and so forth, and I just can't remember who handed it to me
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or how it arrived.
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Mr. Schwarz.
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Would you expect that there should be
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Mr. Fenn.
Yes.
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Talking about telephones, incidentally,
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Mr. Schwarz.
was there a secure telephone between Washington and Santiago
which was used for messages, or did you use the cable always?
Mr. Phillips. We never used the telephone, unless it is
a personal message like your aunt died and you have to get on
the next plane for the funeral. Otherwise you use those
absolutely marvelous communications facilities that get it
down there --a flash cable will get there in 20 minutes.
In the recess I have been thinking about this, and I re-
alize that I have not been very helpful in what obviously is
a contradictory situation here. As I read it, either General
Bennett does not recall this, or else there was some sort of
14 endeavor within CIA headquarters to use his name. Is that
the approach we are making to this?
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Mr. Schwarz. I don't think we are trying any approach.
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He has denied any knowledge of this.
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Senator Schweiker. We are just confused.
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Mr. Phillips. Maybe I am confused, too.
Senator Schweiker. Can you enlighten us at all?
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Mr. Phillips. If it were someone in CIA headquarters
saying, we are going to use Bennett's name without his
knowledge because it has a lot of clout, I don't understand
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why. Because the messages went from Philpott to Colonel Wimert.
And Colonel Wimert said, I am with you 100 percent, and from
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gand
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that moment began cooperating with the Chief of Station. I don't
2 recall any instance where there was any indication of hesitancy
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on his part about doing what he was doing.
And I certainly can't comment about General Bennett's
side, not having been involved with him.
From the CIA side I suppose it is conceivable that some-
one is using that business that I referred to in dispatches,
General Bennett says, when they are really talking about
what a subordinate of General Bennett says, and they figure
he is acting for them, or something like that. I guess that
is conceivable.
But I would find it very unusual to see some sort of
little plot hatched here, because there was no need to.
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Mr. Schwarz.
What you are saying is that you can't see
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Mr. Phillips. Precisely.
I can't see the motive for fooling Colonel Wimert, be-
cause Colonel Wiment had already started working when he re-
ceived the instructions from the number two man in his Agency,
which is indeed pretty high up.
So, I am afraid the reasons that I am not being helpful
is that I, too, am confused.
Mr. Schwarz. I just received a note indicating that
Mr. Bolten of the Agency has told us that both of the October
25 14 cables were authored by you. I don't know if that adds
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Senator Schweiker.
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Let me ask counsel this.
Can we establish that Philpott did communicate
Mr. Schwarz. Philpott is going to testify on Tuesday.
We have talked to him. He accepts at least one message.
There
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are two which purport to be signed by him, and he is not
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sure if he accepted two.
Senator Schweiker.
Mr. Schwarz.
Mr. Phillips.
Mr. Schwarz.
Mr. Phillips.
So, he has accepted one message?
He accepted one message, yes.
You wanted to ask about a meeting.
It was a final meeting you had with Helms?
Yes.
The death of General Schneider had occurred. And while,
as we said previously, things had fallen into place according
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that those orders that I had been predicting, which were very,
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to "plan", an egregious plan, it was absolutely my conviction
very slim, were now completely unacceptable, one reason being
17 that the inauguration was going to be in 48 hours
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-inauguration, but the confirmation, and so forth.
not the
And so as I recall, there was a meeting of quite a few
of us, probably myself and Mr Pionzio and Mr. Broe and Mr.
Karamessines, and maybe Mr. Flannery,
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meeting.
no,
I guess not, but
I do remember thatmeeting going up there and saying, if there
ever was a chance, it is now finished, and somebody has got to
say that it is finished. And so that is what meant by that
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what happens, it is all right with me. There was an inlet inside
2 of Domingo which was dubbed, the Pasino, the swimming pool,
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and that is where Trujillo threw his friends and enemies
to the sharks. And he used to hang people on meat hooks in
refrigerated vaults. And it sometimes took them several days
to die.
Miss Culbreth. You had served as Chief of Station in
the Dominican Republic prior to the time that you served in
this position on the Track II party?
Mr. Phillips.
I have, after the assassination of
Trujillo. But as a student of Latin America, was very much
aware of this. So, there is another aspect of involvement.
U.S. policy has been to retreat from Trujillo. We cut off our
arms aid, we brought our Ambassador out of there. So, while
those plans were going on we weren't "dealing with a friendly
16 nation", relations were very bad.
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Miss Culbreth. Let me ask you this. After General
Schneider's death was his death characterized by you or by
your colleagues in the CIA as having been an assassination?
It certainly was not. And I do not do
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Mr. Phillips.
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Miss Culbreth.
You would not this day characterize
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his death as having been an assassination?
Mr. Phillips. No. I think it was an accident that
25 occurred because he turned out to be such a brave man that
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when he looked up and he saw a bunch of people standing
around his car he drew his gun.
Miss Culbreth.
Thank you.
5
I would like to direct your attention to this cable
that you were questioned about. It is the one that is dated
September 27, 1970. And Mr. Schwarz read from that cable in
This was the cable which said "A
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talking with you earlier.
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false flag base of staff would be established in Santiago by
10 October".
And you were questioned about this part: "These
officers will perform the delicate chores with great flap
potential which cannot be done by station personnel or any
Chilean. An example: We have a Canadian who can pose as
ilian intelligence officer. If he approached, funded and
ran a Chilean general, any flap would be a Brazilian one"
In the second paragraph which was not read earlier,
I would like to read this and then put a question to you:
"Headquarters believes this false flag base, manned by
officers who have repeatedly proved their ability to operate
and recruit under false colors, will give station great
flexibility in handling delicate and fast-moving situations
securely".
To me this second paragraph indicates that these false
flag officers were people that had experience in this very
kind of intelligence operations, is that correct?
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Mr. Phillips. Every one of them was known to me per-
sonally and had worked for me.
Miss Culbreth.
as a false flag officer?
And had been in this kind of capacity
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Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
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Miss Culbreth.
So, this was not some unique and unusual,
devious approach or mechanism that was being employed in this
instance?
Mr. Phillips. The purpose of that explanation, es-
pecially the second paragraph that you read, was
the imme-
diate reaction, as I recall, from the station when they first
heard that we were given their assignment, was, come on,
that flap potential is great, it is not going to work, what
are you talking about, this, that and the other.
As a matter of fact, as I recall, Henry Hecksher.
Chief of Station, was terribly upset, because he is a sort of
an old pro, and he wanted to get into position, in other words,
to plan for the future, and all of a sudden this new thing
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The purpose of that cable was to explain to the
station that we had been given this job to do and that we
at headquarters saw that as the safest way for them to
accomplish the job that they had been given with the least
possibility of embarrassing the American Ambassador, and that
sort of thing.
Senator Schweiker. You said earlier, Mr. Phillips, I think
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in contact, but we didn't see it as such a sure thing; even
though this says, probably by General Viaux and so forth.
Was there any question in your mind
Miss Culbreth.
as principal operating officer here in the states that there
was a delineation or a demarcation of function between the
Viaux group and the Valenzuela group, or did you regard them
as one big group down there accomplishing this, or did you really
regard them as separate groups?
Mr. Phillips. I very definitely regarded them as two
separate groups, always with the caveat that in Latin America
some one always has a cousin who talks to someone else.
But I very definitely regarded them as two separate groups,
and when General Viaux was called off earlier in October, I
thought that General Viaux was out of the thing, and I thought
that without support that he wasn't going to try anything.
And then we had the other group which seemed to be
more serious people, and with more capabilities. And I
very definitely regarded them as two separate groups.
Miss Culbreth. Let me ask just a few questions that
might sort of help us a little bit in our housekeeping opera-
tions when we get to the point of trying to tie everything up
on these.
With regard to the information that was given to you,
the specific instructions on these cables that were sent to the
Chief of Station and were directed to Colonel Wimert, who can
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Senator Hart of Michigan. Anyone else?
1
Mr.
Johnston. Mr. Phillips, just one last question.
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How
large was the room you were operating out of? You described
a small windowless room.
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it as
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Mr. Phillips.
About from here to your wall back there
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no,
not that big.
Mr. Johnston.
This was the entire control area for the
Task Force?
Mr. Phillips.
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Mr. Johnston.
That is right.
How many people were on the Task Force
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besides you?
Mr. Phillips. Of course we had two shifts of secretaries,
there was someone there all night, and that sort of thing.
There were two or three secretaries, myself, Mr. Poinzio,
six, eight, something like that.
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Mr. Johnston. And that included the secretaries?
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Mr. Phillips.
Yes.
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Mr. Johnston.
How many action officers were in the room?
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Mr. Phillips. It was pretty much Mr. Poinzio and myself,
as the real action officers.
And then there were two junior
officers that were assisting at the time. I think I have given
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Mr. O'Flaherty their names previously.
So that was four. And
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there was someone from the CIA shop, the Counterintelligence
ship, whose name I can't remember today. So that is five
officers that I recall. And I think that there was a 6th that
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