157-10011-10083
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RECORD NUMBER: 157-10011-10083
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DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION
FROM:
TO :
TITLE :
DESPOSITION/TRANSCRIPT OF STURBITTS, WILLIAM C.
DATE: 04/16/75
PAGES: 114
SUBJECTS :
DEPOSITION OF STURBITTS, WILLIAM C.
DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
CLASSIFICATION : S
RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS : P
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/29/93
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NW 50955
DocId: 32203851 Page 1
Date: 10/06/93
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292-1
ORIGINAL
(CII-W)
Deppeb of
Record Number 157-10011-10083
OF
Wednisday.
16, 1975
Langley Virginia
WARD&PAUL
WASHINGTON, D.C.
410 First Street, S.E., 20003
Phone
Doct§890
Page 2
Verba
volant.
Scripta
W
Spoken
orde fly-
Manent
written
words endure
TM
FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA
4055 Chain Bridge Rd., 22030
Phone
(703) 273-2400'
NW 50955
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, DC. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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0
Deposition of
William C. Sturbitts
SECRET
CONTENTS
Examination by Counsel
For the Commission
(AFTERNOON SESSION Page 58)
7
William C. Sturbitts (Resumed)
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A
LENNING
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WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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5.
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رما
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SECRET
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON CIA ACTIVITIES
1
Langley, Virginia
Wednesday, April 15, 1975
Deposition of WILLIAM C. STURBITTS, called for
examination by Counsel for the Commission on CIA Activities,
the witness being duly sworn by Thomas C. Hogan, a Notary
Public in and for the State of Virginia, in the offices of the
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Central Intelligence Agency, Langley, Virginia, at 9:50
o'clock a.m., on Wednesday, April 16, 1975, the proceedings
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being taken down in stenotype by Ruth G. McClenning, and
transcribed under her direction.
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of the Commission:
GEORGE MANFREDI, ESQ.,
ROBERT B. OLSEN, ESQ.
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Thereupon,
SECRET
PROCEEDINGS
2
WILLIAM C. STURBITTS,
called as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA
Activities, and having been first duly sworn by the Notary
Public, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Mr. Sturbitts, will you state your full name for the
William C. Sturbitts.
Mr. Sturbitts, do you recall when we spoke ste
9
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record?
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A
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A
+
Right.
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A
Sure.
weeks ago you signed a document entitled, "Advice ard
Waiver"?
You understand that document is still in effecto
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ሰንን.
Q
Mr. Sturbitts, by whom are you currently employ
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A
You mean the Agency or
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Q
That is right.
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.A
Central Intelligence Agency.
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And what is your current position with the Agency?
23
A
I am a Special Assistant, Latin America, for
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Economic Intelligence Collection and Operations.
Q
Page 5
And would you briefly review for me the history of
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your employment with the Agency?
A
When I first came in I was in the Intelligence
3
Directorate for approximately ten years and I was put on special
detail, special indefinite detail, in the Deputy Director, Plans,
which is now the Directorate of Operations.
?
A
Q
What year were you put on that detail?
I guess it was 1964, January, I believe.
And what did that detail involve?
A
Cuban operations, economic warfare.
10
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A
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WARD & PAUL
Q
And how long were you on that detail?
I was in the Cuban operations for nine years.
Between 1964 and 1973?
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A
(Nods in affirmative.)
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And in 1973 did you assume your current position?
15
A
Yes, January.
16
Now, while you were on special detail
to the DOD?
انه
A
Yes.
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Were you stationed in Washington?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
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A
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And did you commute with some frequency to Miami?
Yes.
Were your activities in Miami in any way connected
with the operations of the Miami Station?
A In some way. My responsibilities were worldwide.
I took temporary duty predominantly in Europe, and then Miami.
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Most of my operations were
were
A
Run out of
run out of Europe.
Europe. Some were run out of Miami but the big ones
run out of Europe.
Well, in the course of your activities with respect
to Cuba did you have occasion to become familiar with the
operations of the Miami base?
A
Yes.
Q And the situation in the Cuban community in Miami?
A Yes, sir.
During the nine years you were with DDO's Cuban
operations, who was
Station?
who were the chiefs of the Miami
.14
☐
A I think in 1963 Ted Shackley was the Chief and he
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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15
was followed by
I can't think of his name. I should know
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it. Well, I will come back to that.
Then, the next Chief of Station was Paul Henze.
18
Q
What years was he Chief?
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20
A I think Paul was there about a year and a half. te
left in 1968 when we reduced the size of the Station. Let's
say Henze was there from 1966 to 1968. And then Jake Esterline.
He was Chief of Station from 1968 to 1973.
23
Now, what was the formal title of the group to which
24
25
you were assigned for the 9-year period?
A
Well, when I first came in it was known as the
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Special Activities Staff. It was headed by Desmond Fitzgerald.
And then, I believe after that it became the Cuban Operations
Group.
Q Now, was this a special group within the DDO or was
it attached to one of the area divisions?
A
No.
༡
00
0
that when Harvey left, he went
and Fitzgerald took over, it became Special Activities Staff.
Following the Bay of Pigs, they created a thing.
called Task Force W which was headed by Bill Harvey. And
E Station, Rome
10
It wasn't attached to anything except
it reported to the
11
Deputy Director, Plans.
12
WARD & PAUL
Q
And that was Mr. Karamessines?
13
A
Yes. Well, it was Helms at that time back when it.
14
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was first created. Helms was DDP at that time.
Q And Task Force W was created immediately after the
16
Bay of Pigs?
17
A
Well, not immediately.
I think sometime around
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in the Bay of Pigs was in April. I think this was created in
September, something like that, 1961.
Q And that subsequently became the Special Activities
Staff?
A Special Activities Staff and consequently became the
Cuban Operations Group. As the Cuban Operations Group it went
back into the Western Hemisphere Division.
And what was the date of that reorganization?
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A Well, let's see. I would say that was probably around)
1965 because Fitzgerald then became Chief, W.H., and then
later DDP.
Now, Mr.Harvey
do you recall what position Mr.
Harvey held after he left Task Force W?
6
A
Yes. He was
Station, Rome.in
7
Q
And is he still with the Agency?
00
A
Oh, no. He retired a long time ago.
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WARD & PAUL
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A
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A
Do you know where he lives at the present time?
Frankly, I don't. I have an idea where he lives.
He went to work for a friend of mine who had a law firm.
Harvey is a lawyer.
Indianapolis area?
Yes, some place around there. It is in the midwest,
Indiana.
15
Q
What was the role that was assigned to Task Force
16
W?
17
A
It was the overall Cuban operations.
18
Q
Did the Miami
when was the Miami Station estab-
19
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lished?
20
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A Well, I think they had a forward operations base down
there about 1960 which was small, in Coral Gables.
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A
Q
This was, then, prior to the Bay of Pigs?
yes.
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oh,
Now, in addition to Task Force W, was the Miami
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Station running any operations against Cuba?
A
You mean prior to the Bay of Pigs?
7
Yes.
A I really don't know.
It was a small
it was a
forward base and it was more or less as I recall, a support type
thing.
Q Well, after the Bay of Pigs when Task Force W was
established, did it have sole responsibility for Cuban
operations?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
Or was that shared with the Miami base, Miami
12
Station?
13
A
No. The Miami Station was under Task Force W.
14
Q
All right. Would that also be true of the Special
15
18
Activities Staff, the Cuban Operations Group?
A Right, except that at the present time the Station
has no Cuban operations.
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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Q
I understand that. When were Cuban operations termi-
19
nated?
20
A
At the Station? Let's see.
Sternfield went down
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there in 1972. It was during fiscal year '72. I think it was
in early 1973. It was a gradual reduction.
Զ And have those operations been terminated entirely
or are they now run out of the Washington area?
25
A
All Cuban operations are run out of Washington.
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There are no more paramilitary operations, that type of thing.
Q
But there are some Cuban operations being run out of
the Washington area?
::
A
Right.
Q
Is that correct?
A
Right. Worldwide.
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Mr.Sturbitts, in the last couple of weeks you may
have seen some allegations in the press about possible assassina
tion attempts that have been mounted or alleged assassination
attempts that have been mounted
Jend
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A
Right.
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Ω
WARD & PAUL
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14
against Fidel Castro. In the course of your
activities with respect to Cuba, did you ever learn of any such
attempts?
15
A
Well, let me answer it this way. I wouldn't say
16
attempts. I know there was discussion.
"Attempts" is too
17
strong a word.
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with a
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Well, can you place in time your first knowledge of
any such discussions?
A Well, the first knowledge I had of any discussions,
I was on TDY and this was October, November, 1963, with Fitzgeral
in Paris. And I knew that he was going to meet let me put
it another way. I had overheard that discussions were going on
member of Castro's military but that he wanted,
as
I recall, he wanted some British -- I mean Belgian rifles and
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st
די..
(1)
ཚུ་ ཟན་ བྱ
a telescopic sight.
SECRET
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Who wanted them?
A This military guy that was in Fidel's
wwwwwww
I think
at one time he was a commandante. Now, I knew that was going
on. I didn't participate in it because I was there for another
reason. And I know that subsequent to that time that Fitzgerald
met with him again and as I recall, as the personal representa-
tive of the Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy.
I provided all those files. There are 19 valumes that
we gave to your people. But I don't know who was reviewing
them. I think Belin was going to do it himself.
10
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Yes. He is. He is doing it himself.
13
You said there were 19 volumes of documents with
14
respect to this.
10
A
19 files, manila.
16
Q.
All having to do with possible assassination?
17
A
All having to do with this whole time period and
(n)
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410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
21
22
23
can we go off the record for a minute?
(Discussion off the record.)
BY MR. MANFREDI:
The first knowledge of such conversations that you
had, I take it you obtained on a trip to Europe with Mr.
Fitzgerald?
24.
A
I simply overheard it, that is right.
25
Q
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And who were the parties to the conversation you over-
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heard?
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A A fellow named Nestor Sanchez.
Q
And Mr. Fitzgerald?
Yes, and I really can't recall some of the other
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people.
We were --we had just moved the Station at that tii
in Paris out of the Embassy into the old Rothschild Palace-
and we felt that it was probably bugged, so all conversations
we walked around the garden and tyat type of
took place
wwwww www
thing, and, you know, I was walking with somebody, somebody
was in front of me, and you just overhear conversations.
"
WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
No. Mr. Sanchez was in the Special Activities Staff.
He was stationed in Washington. And he was in contact with
10
11
Q
This was in Paris?
12
A
Yes.
13
Q
I see.
14
Sanchez- was he a member of the military?
15
A
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Cuban military
Q
Was it your understanding that the Agency had received
instructions with respect to this activity from another
component of the Government?
A
Well, let me put it this way. I don't know whether
they received instructions. I have to assume, and I am pretty
positive, that this was a result of a Special Group decision.
And at this time you have to remember that Bobby Kennedy was
overseeing this deal, presumably for his brother, and he was
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part of that Special Group. He called the meetings, he presided;
he did a number of things.
Q Were there any other occasions that you can recall
in which the possibility or the subject of assassination of
Fidel Castro was discussed?
A 'No, not really.
7
Q
You referred to this as the first occasion.
A
This is the first
9
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A
Was there a second?
the first time I knew about it or even heard it
11
discussed.
12
Q
13
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underway
Well, prior to the investigation that is currently
I am referring now to our Commission's investigation
were there any other occasions in which this subject came
to your attention after this discussion in the garden in
Paris?
A The only other thing that came to my attention
that the decision was made not to provide him with this
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410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
that he wanted.
Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know,
20
but that is what I was told.
21
Q
When did you learn that?
28
A
Oh, I would assume in
must have been early 1964,
23
around February, something like that.
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Q
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
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MR. MANFREDI: On the record.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
12
Q
Mr. Sturbitts, are you familiar with a gentleman by
1"
the name of Frank Sturgis?
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---
Q
the press?
A
Q
Indeed.
Is your familiarity based on what you have read in
No. It is what is contained in the files.
Have you caused a search to be made of CIA files,
particularly the files of the Western Hemisphere Division,
in an attempt to determine whether Mr. Sturgis ever had any
connection with the Agency?
WARD & PAUL
13
A
I have.
14
Q
15
A
16
17
What were the results of that search?
Absolutely no connection, never has been.
When we talk about connection, are we talking about
an employment relationship?
18
A
That is what I am speaking of.
19
Q
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Was Mr.Sturgis ever an independent contractor of
20
the Agency?
21
A
No.
22
Was he ever a contract employee?
23
A
No.
1
24
Q
Was he ever a regular employee of the Agency?
\?
25
A
No.
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Agency?
Was he ever hired to do any piecework for the
A
Not to my knowledge.
13
. "
10
5
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7
in
ང
Do you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici-
pated in any type of paramilitary or other operation against
Cuba?
A On his own behalf he did, not on behalf of this
Agency.
Q
How did you learn of those operations?
10
A
Through the newspaper. And through FBI reports.
11
Q
NOW,
are these recent FBI reports?
12.
A
Oh, no. These go back
wwwww wwwww
I know at one time, the
13
ין ་
14
15
16
2
thing that comes to mind, I think he made a leaflet drop
over Cuba and this was subsequently reported in the press and
by the Bureau office in Miami.
A
Q
Do you know who financed his activities?
I have no idea.
18
Q
Is it possible that Mr. Sturgis' activities were
13
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20
21
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indirectly financed by the Agency through
A I don't see how. Frank Sturgis is a soldier of
fortune; has been. He has constantly tried to associate himself
with the Agency. When I went through his file they wanted me
to classify the file and the way I classified it was "don't
destroy it, he is an intelligence nuisance."
Off the record.
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ان
w's
01
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14
Q
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. MANFREDI: On the record.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Have you caused the Agency records with respect to Mr.
Sturgis to be assembled in any one location?
A
Yes. I have custody of them.
Q
And what is the volume of that material?
A
As I recall, there are five volumes.
Your Committee
10
11
called for them the other day after the article in the paper,
I guess it was last Saturday. They called for them Monday and
they returned them Monday afternoon.
12
Q
Do you know who examined those files?
13
A
No, I don't.
14
Q
You indicated a moment ago that Mr. Sturgis contacts
15
16
i
the DCD office in Miami with some frequency, is that correct?
A Well, not great frequency but he does with tidbits
of so-called information.
Q
Is this information limited to narcotics, alleged
narcotics traffic?
Recently it has been.
Q Has Mr. Sturgis been encouraged by the DCD office
in Miami?
A Mr. Sturgis has been told by the DCD office in Miami
to take his information to the Drug Enforcement Agency or the
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220
20
A
21
22
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FBI.
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2 Do you know whether or not they consider him an
established contact?
A
No manner.
Do they have any do they periodically seek to
collect information from Mr. Sturgis?
15
A I can't speak to that but the records that we have
don't reflect anything like that. Before they would contact
somebody in that context, knowing that there is a 201 file
on Sturgis, they would have to coordinate with the Latin
American Division before they did anything since we do hold
the file.
Q Would you briefly explain what a 201 file is?
A A 201 file is a personnel file. It consists of any
information relating to an individual appearing in the press
as a result of other agency reporting and that type of thing.
Personnel or personality file?
Q
Personality file, I should say. Excuse me.
Do you know whether or not there is any connection
or relationship between Eugenio Martinez and Mr.
Sturgis?
know
A Well, I will say this. Obviously, they do
each other. They have to know each other from their days
16
17
A
18
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
21
22
in Cuba.
23
23
24
Do you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici-
pated with Martinez in raids against Cuba?
25
A
No. As I recall, we employed Martinez around 1961,
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I guess, and he was in our maritime activities.
He was a
boat captain eventually. And he did participate in infiltrations
and exfiltrations and perhaps one or
two raids, hit and run,
sabotage-type actions against Cuba. Sturgis never engaged in
any of these things. He never did it for us nor did he ever
do it on any of our boats, planes, or
to the Agency.
Q
✔dy
anything that belongs
When Martinez would run such an operation or captain
a boat on such an operation, would he be charged with putting
together his own crew?
A
No. He had an assigned crew and every boat had a
Case Officer operating either out of the
probably out of
the Miami Station. Sometimes I would assume that we did have
some people in the Key West base. But he, Martinez, would recei
his instructions and briefings from his Case Officer.
So it is likely that he could have brought Sturgis
along on any of these operations?
A
Absolutely unlikely. Oh, the guy whose name I Ws
trying to think of, Chief of Station, John Dimmer.
Q And that would be for a period of time between
21 Shackley and Henze?
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
22
A
Yes.
23
33
Q
1964 to 1966?
24
A
Something like that.
25
Q
Would you describe briefly for me the nature of
the
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activities conducted by the Special Activities Staff during
your and subsequently the Cuban Operations Group during
your 9-year tenure with those groups.
A
Well, there was
it was an across-the-board
intelligence operation consisting of collection of foreign
positive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitary
activities, covert action, economic activities. That is about
the breadth of the thing.
Now, these were all conducted through the DDO?
Q
10
A
Right.
Now, let's speak for a moment about the paramilitary
operations.
Florida?
Were these operations run out of southern
11
ཐཱས-
12
13
14
A
15
16
A
Yes.
Right.
And in particular out of the Miami Station?
...
18
19
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21
Were there any other CIA facilities in that area of
the country that participated in these activities?
A
Not to my knowledge.
Were there any southern harbors other than Miami
that were used in these activities?
22
A
well, ve
23
I said
did have a Key West base.
24
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Were there any other bases in that area of the
country that were utilized in these operations?
CEFRET

410 First Sircet, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
:
SECRET
A Well, not that I would call a base. We did have
training facilities for the UDT teams,
Q
What is a UDT team?
A
Underwater demolition.
5
Q
Where were those bases located?
8
A I frankly don't know hey were down along the Keys
along that long peninsula going down there. There were a
number of sites. I really can't recall them.
Were there any other sites within the United States
in which paramilitary training was conducted, for people
participating in these activities?
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A
Not to my knowledge.
Where were these people trained?
What do you mean?
Well, Cubans who participated in these activities.
A We trained them at these places we had in the Keys,
Now, there also some of them were brought up here and traine
the Domestic Training Station.
18
19
Where is that located? ⠀
20
A
Tha is down in Virginia.
21
Were any CIA personnel actually involved in these
22
raids?
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wa Chad
you have got to
A Occasionally, I would think that
understand at this time that we had a great many contract
employees, independent contractors and this type
of thing.
APAR PO
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WARD & PAUL
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Most of the paramilitary operations and the training was
conducted by the Special Operations Group which is another
entity of the
A
DDO?
DDO.
Now, the facilities that we have been talking about,
training facilities, were manned, then, by the Special
Operations Group, or at least supervised by the Special
Operations Group, is that correct?
A Well, supervised, yes, and I would think that probabl
some of the training was given by their people. The Donest
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in Station
the
but I
would think that in the paramilitary field that the SOG would
probably staff the training facility with their people who have
the expertise in paramilitary operations.
Q Now, were the people that were being trained at
these facilities basically Cuban refugees?
A
Yes.
And at the outset I take it not many of those people
20
were American citizens?
21
A
No.
22
Q
Or had become American citizens.
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24
I would assume a great many have.
By this time.
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By this time, yes.
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+.
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in Miami?
At the present time, how large is that Cuban communit
Do you have any idea?
A Well, it is extremely large. I would think it is
probably
5
7
00
0
10
11
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I was trying to think. I would say up towards a
military people.
Q You spoke about paramilitary operations and covert
action. How do you distinguish between those two categories
of activities?
A Well, actually one can fall into the other. The
paramilitary could fall into covert action but in those days
--
we did distinguish somewhat. A lot of the covert action was
media placement. We had a number of operations at legal-
type operations, harassment operations. For instance, Fidel
seized a great many art treasures and in particular he had a
Napoleonic collection which was supposed to be the finest in
the world that he sold to dealers in Europe. He had paintings
that were immensely valuable that he tried to have auctioned
15
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in London and the London auctioneer would not accept them
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We ran legal operations, got the owners and had them
hire attorneys and bring them to court and this type of thing.
He seized these race horses. He tried to peddle them
in Europe and up in Canada. We ran opposition against that
Page 23
AP ల
because he obviously didn't have clear title to them.
He was
they were stolen, in the eyes of the auctioneer.
forced to auction them in Toronto, Canada.
He was
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WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
.
、•;
3+
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type of thing.
A
2
These were what you considered to be covert operation
Yes, covert action.
Now, this is what you were referring to, legal-
type operations?
A
Yes.
Ω You used legal process to harass Castro.
3
A
Yes.
Ou
10
What other types of harassment activities did you
run that would fall under this covert action category?
11
A
Well
12
Q
Would economic warfare be
13
A
That was sort of something separate unto itself.
14
This was
the economic warfare aspect of this thing was 3
15
decision of the Special Group to enforce an economic blockade.
16
Q
What special group is that?
17
A
It is now called the Forty Committee.
(0)
Q
Is that 302 Committee?
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A
Well, it was a 302 at one time, too. First of all,
it was called the Special Group, CI, Counterinsurgency.
Then
it went to the 302 and then it had another name in between
there and now it is the Forty Committee.
Q
All right. We will return to that a little bit
later, but what other types of harassment were you running
25 against Castro
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A
This is what I was trying to think of.
that would be considered covert action?
Well, as I say, a lot of propaganda, press placement,
media placement.
It has been so long ago I really don't
remember. I know we had a number of things going against him.
We used suasion, moral suasion, otherwise. We did some
extra-legal things. We tried to get to his sources of supply,
particularly when they were countries that we had treaties
with NATO countries, Canada, this type of thing.
Let's talk about each of those in turn. You said
you used moral suasion. What kind of activities are you
referring to?
WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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A
Well, in the moral suasion field we
actually, we
were the catalyst in this whole thing and we had the legal
activities, the legal
wwww fum
well, I don't know how you would
phrase it, but we operated under the Cuban access control
regulations of the Treasury, Department, the Trading with the
Enemy Act, and we also used the facilities of the Department of
Commerce, the Export Control people.
I guess as you are aware, Cuban industry was totally
U.S.-oriented. As parts began wearing out and this type of
thing, Castro had his little people there running around trying
to place orders with subsidiaries of U.S. companies. Where
we would find this out through all-source intelligence, we
or the Treasury people or the Commerce people would go to the
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to
7
8
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executives of these American companies and ask them to tell
their foreign subsidiaries not to provide the spare parts
and the other things that Castro might need. We had the
we identified 600 of the major U.S.
Department of Commerce
companies that could provide spare parts for Cuban industry.
We had the Department of Commerce send letters to those 600
manufacturers and ask them to cooperate with them in denying
any spare parts to the Cubans. This was a fairly concentrated
effort to really isolate them.
All right. And that is what you were referring to
as moral suasion?
(1)
13
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A
Yes.
Anything else in that category?
A Not really. None that I can think of.
Did you make the same kind of efforts with foreign
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
companies?
A At one point we did but it was absolutely useless,
ase being the Leyland buses. We pulled all stops
The British Government turned us down
18
he point
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to stop
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flat.
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supply?
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A
Now, did you attempt to reach any other sources of
Well, we also had what we call a preemptive purchasing
program. If there was a single source of supply for a
particular item we would go in and buy it to deny the Cubans
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the market.
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Would that then be re-sold somewhere on the domestic
A
Yes.
A
A
domestic market?
No. It would be re-sold abroad.
In all cases?
The cases that I was associated with, it was all
sold abroad.
10
What kind of purchases were made?
A Well, we purchased at one point
we purchased
11
some Bright Stock in Antwerp,
12
What?
13
A
Bright Stock.
14
What is that?
15
A
Heavy, heavy oil, and since Cuba
85 percent of
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21
22
commodity.
I
Bright Stock can be
her energy comes from oil, this was considered a critical
oh, it is almost like tar,
melted tar, and it can be cut into additives, lubricants, this
type of thing, and this was critical to the Cuban economy. So
we had an oil firm purchase this Bright Stock from a dealer for
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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which we reimbursed the guy and the Bright Stock was eventual
sold in Africa.
Q Do you know of any sales of such materials that
were made within the United States?
CEADZT
Resales, I should say.
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2
1.
12
31)
7
m
0
Q In addition to preemptive buying were there any
other actions taken by this group with respect to sources of
supply to Cuba?
A Well, we did provide through third country agents
who got orders for Cuban goods, in collusion with the Commerce
Department, and I would assume the Special Group, we had
replacement parts manufactured that were substandard.
And you had them sold through foreign companies?
A Well, we had our agents get the Cuban orders all
:
10
over Europe. Then they would come back and, as a matter of fact,
11
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WARD & PAUL
the former Secretary of Commerce, who is on your Committee, Des.
and I met him and he gave us the go-ahead to do this.
13
Q
Mr.
Dilion?
14
A
No. He was Secretary of the Treasury.
15
Q
But
16
A
But you must remember that these American
1--1
17
Q
Mr. Connors?
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fide
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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Q
You referred to some extra-legal activities.
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A
Yes.
That is what I was trying to think of, what
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we did. I just can't think
Page 28
I remember this was on one of
A
well, their places were nationalized and they were only too
happy to work with us. And actually, it was a cash deal, bona
business. These things were transshipped through two
22 or three countries, finally wound up in Havana.
Yes. But you must remember these American manufacturer
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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תכ
00
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our activities but I just can't think
I remember this was
on one of our activities but I just can't remember what the
extra-legal was. I just can't remember what it was. I know
it was
one of the parts of the program.
Q This was illegal activities? Is that what you are
referring to?
A Well, I wouldn't say they were illegal, but they
weren't exactly legal, I don't think. Perhaps they were in a
gray area some place.
Q
Well, whose laws are we talking about, international
law, the laws of the United States?
A I would have to go back and review the thing. I
11
12
13
14
Q
Where could we find that kind of thing in the files?
15
A
I would think probably down)
Records Center some
really can't remember this. I would have to go to the files.
14
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place.
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
17
Q
Would it be possible to obtain that material Soc
18
time during the lunch hour?
19
A
No.
is forty miles away
20
Well, is there some place in the building where
21 you could refresh your memory?
22
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A Not to my knowledge. All that stuff has been shipper!.
This is talking 11 years ago, 12 years ago. All that material
has been retired.
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Q
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What category of activity would we be talking about
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100
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تما
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when we refer to extra-legal activities?
A
This is what I was trying to think of and I can't
think of what it was. I know extra-legal activities was one
parts of the program that we were involved in.
I might have a chart in my safe downstairs that might
tell me what that is.
Q
Well, let's make a note of that and we will have to
come back to that.
All right.
Who else would be knowledgeable about extra-legal
activities that were run against Castro?
A
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A Well, the people that would be knowledgeable are
probably retired and I was running the program.
the economic program.
Q
So I ran
Well, these are activities that were run in connection
with the economic program?
A
Yes.
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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Q We talked about media placement during this nine-
year period. To what are you referring when you refer to
media placement?
A Well, stories or news items that perhaps our
propaganda people, wrote. We had them placed in newspapers
and magazines throughout the world.
Q
stations?
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 30
Would this also include broadcasts over radio

410 First Sticet, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 207) 544-0000
00
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SECRET
A
Oh, yes. Radio is a very big part of it.
Ω
Now, were any of these newspapers or magazines
published within the United States?
2
Not to my knowledge, no.
ว
These were essentially foreign publications?
=
A
Yes.
7
Q
in Miami?
A
Castro.
Were any of them published in the Cuban community
No. The intent was to get world opinion against
You don't do that by publishing in the United States.
10
11
What about the radio broadcasts?
How were those
12
handled?
13
A
14
15
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Are you speaking of Radio Swan now?
Well, I am unfamiliar with how many radio stations
were involved. Was there more than one radio station?
A
No. We only had the one radio station but we did
contract time with Florida stations, a station in New York.
18
Q
For broadcasts to what areas?
19
A
For broadcasts to Havana.
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Q
And the station in New York, was that received also
21
was that also broadcasting to various areas of the United
22
States?
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A
I have no idea. I don't know whether they used a
particular frequency to get this out or whether they did it
on short-wave or what they did.
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WARD & PAUL
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But the intention was to reach Cuba.
A
Reach Cuba.
29
as Swan.
A
You referred to a station in New York, referred to
Were there others?
There were a couple in Miami that I recall. Not in
Miami. I think there was one
I think, and one down in
yes, there was one in Miami,
West that they used.
Where was Radio Swan located?
On Swan Island.
As far as you can recall, were there any other
radio stations in the United States that were utilized to
broadcast propaganda materials toward Cuba?
A Well, there conceivably could have been, not that
A
10
Q
Where is Swan Island?
11
A
Swan Island is a little glob around Honduras.
12
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I recall right now.
Q
Do you recall any attempts by the Agency or groups
affiliated with the Agency to raise money from the American
public to support those propaganda activities?
A No. As far as I know, Radio Swan and this type of
thing was fully subsidized by the Agency.
Ω Do you recall the advertising campaigns that were
23 run in connection with Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty?
£4
A
Oh, yes.
25
Q
Was anything of that nature done in connection with
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WARD & PAUL
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hp?
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Cuban propaganda?
SECRET
A
Not to my knowledge.
Q
radio?
30
And that would include both the publications and the
A
Right.
7
00
9
10
11
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moments.
Let's talk about economic warfare for a couple of
Could you describe for me briefly the type of
economic activities that were conducted against Castro?
A Well, first of all, we wanted to denigrate the
regime, his credit worthiness, and this type of thing. We
worked very closely with the Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in
the State Department and, well, for instance, in those days, I
guess it was back in 1964, the price of sugar had jumped from
about a penny a pound to 13 cents a pound, something like
14
15
that, and we couldn't understand why. So we kept
16
Fidel kent
-
ཪས་
saying that he had such a poor crop and this type of thing and
we just couldn't figure out why he had such a poor crop because
some of our own island assets told us they were out there cuttin
this cane like mad and the mills were working 24 hours a day,
18
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20
this type of thing. So subsequently,
21
we found out that he was
22
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24
25
lying and he was storing the raw cane in the schools, any
place. He had no storage facilities and put it any place he
could.
So in cooperation with a couple of sugar brokers in
New York, we surfaced this fact and the price of sugar took a
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real tumble and all of a sudden then Cuba started exporting.
It was this type of thing that obviously he was
trying to build up the world price because he didn't have any
money, he was so short on his exchange, and obviously we didn't
want him to get the exchange. So it was those types of
activities.
Q Was the assistance of any U.S. businessmen or U.S.
companies enlisted in that effort?
A
Oh, yes.
In what manner did you use U.S. companies and
businessmen?
A Well, we simply used them as the experts. A great
many the sugar industry in Cuba was controlled by the
American community, by American bankers, and obviously they
lost everything when they had to pull out. Sugar is the
lifeline of Cuba as far as any exchange, foreign exchange, this
type of thing, and it was naturally our Number 1 target.
was only natural that we would go to the American businessmen.
What kind of assistance did you seek or obtain from
Q
these businessmen?
A Well, we simply talked with them about why you
know, the market conditions were, why the price was rising.
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we could find out that Fidel has plenty of sugar, what would
happen to the market price. This type of thing.
Q They were used as consultants, basically.
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A
They were used as consultants, basically, yes.
We have spoken about the investment American business
had in Cuba. Did it ever come to your attention that American
organized crime
5.
เ
2
00
had considerable investment in Cuba?
A No. Well, everybody knew that the Mafia was in
Cuba. I mean, all the casinos and this type of thing.
A
No.
Զ
The casinos were run
10
A
I knew that long before. When I was in the Air Force
ܗ,
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during the war, I used to fly into Havana on weekends and this
type of thing.
13
Q
I understand that. It was fairly well known.
14
A
It was a criminal element.
15
Q
The Mafia was involved with the casinos in Havana.
16
A
Right.
17
Q
Do you know of any attempts by the Agency to enlist
18
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410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
the support or assistance of any crime figures in any manner
whatsoever in the Agency's efforts against the Cuban regime?
20
A
No.
21
Q
Have you ever heard of Mr.Roselli?
22
A
Oh, yes.
23
When was the first time you heard of Mr. Roselli?
24
A
Well, I guess it was
it seems to me it was either
25
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ECADEY
Drew Pearson or Jack Anderson had an article on him a number
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of years ago.
name?
Was that the first time you heard of the man's
A
Yes, as I recall.
Q
A
Is that also true of Sam Giancana?
No. I have heard that name but I don't know where.
In connection with
33
Q
00
A
Not in connection with the Agency, no.
9
Q
In connection with the casinos or
10
A
No.
11
gambling interests in Cuba?
12
WARD & PAUL
A
No.
13
14
15
16
17
Q
You know of no instance in which organized crime
figures were used as consultants by the Agency?
A
Only what I read in the paper. I had no knowledge
of that whatsoever.
Do you know of any offers of assistance from figures
18
of that type
www ww
19
A
No.
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
21
A
22
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No.
who were interested in getting back into cuba?
We were talking about economic warfare. We have
talked about attempts to keep the price of sugar low. What other
types of economic activities were conducted against Castro's
25
Cuba?
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A Well, we used all-source information to find out what
his commercial dealings were.
When we would see
--
34
well, for
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instance, the Nicaro Nickel Mine which is a source owned
by the General Services Administration, finally got back into
production and nickel, of course, and still is
supply. We had a French firm, Societe le Nickel
was in short
who was
buying almost the entire output of the Nicaro mines. And this
French firm ex ported to the United States. So we went to
the Treasury Department and to the Foreign Assets Control
people and said, isn't there something we can do to stop these
Le Nickel exports coming into the United States? So they looke
into the thing and indeed they did.
12
WARD & PAUL
13
Q
Who owned the mine?
14
A
The U.S. Government owned it when Castro took it
15
over.
16
I see.
17
A
General Services Administration. And it was leased
18
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out for operation. But the ownership rested with the
Government.
www.
So the Treasury simply made the French provide a
Certificate of Origin for the nickel that went in they
export a lot of metal that contains nickel, silverware, knives
and
forks, this type of thing, and you know, stainless
steel, and since nickel is used as a hardening agent we simply
Treasury simply said you can't import any more into this
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country until we have a Certificate of Origin. As a matter
of fact, there was a boat that was pulling into the dock in
New York and they wouldn't let it unload. They just turned it
around. Eventually, over a period of months, le Nickel
found other sources and export privileges to the United States
were restored.
WARD & PAUL
410 First Sircet, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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You know, it is
you just
any time you raise
or lower a tariff you have economic warfare. It is that
simple.
Ω Were there any other instances that you can recall
of economic warfare in which you enlisted the support of
American business firms?
A
I know we were in touch with a great many American
business firms. We enlisted everybody's support that we could.
MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
BY MR. MANFREDI:
When we broke for a moment we were discussing other
instances where the Agency has enlisted the support of American
business in economic warfare against Cuba. Can you think of
any other such instances?
A Oh, certainly. The Cubans were having an awful time
with their Maritime fleet, such as it was. These boats were
powered with Nordberg engines. We simply went to the Nordberg.
people and told them asked them to cooperate with us, which
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they said they would. They notified their manufacturer's
representatives around the world if they got any orders from
This type of thing.
the Cubans they were to be refused.
We did the same thing with
Q Let's just stop for a second. Now, was Nordberg
compensated in any way for cooperation with the Agency?
A
No.
Were they compensated for the loss of business
involved in that activity?
10
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A
No. No.
11
12
Q
other companies.
I take it, you received similar cooperation from
13
A
Oh, a great many other companies, yes.
14
Q
Did any American companies refuse to cooperate in
15
that manner?
16
A
No. Not a one.
27
Q
Were there any legal sanctions threatened agains
18
companies?
19
A
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410 First Singer, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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No. No.
Were there any sanctions that could have been brought
to bear upon those companies had they chosen to trade with
Cuba?
A Well, in the first place, they couldn't trade with
Cuba. They couldn't get export licenses from this country
anyway. Then, under the Foreign Assets Control Act of the
Page 39
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Treasury Department you have the extra-territorialty clause
in there where a subsidiary of an American company cannot
foreign subsidiary of an American company cannot trade with
the country that is designated and Cuba was a designated country.
And all the businessmen were well aware of this. Nobody tried
to twist their arm.
Other than insuring that these companies refused
to accept orders from Cuba, which I take it you feel they were
legally constrained from doing, what other types of support dic
you receive from American business?
WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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A
Well, if American business
sometimes they would
receive correspondence, particularly, say, from well, they
received it from Cuba asking for publications and this type
of thing. They would normally forward all this type of thing
to the Commerce Department and the Treasury Department, or in
some instances they might call me and I would just give them
a Post Office box to send the correspondence to.
Any other types of support solicited or received by
the Agency from American business?
A No. Not that I can recall. There just wasn't one
firm we approached, and God knows we approached I don't know
how many, that wasn't extremely cooperative. As a matter of
fact, a lot of them, you know, thought we weren't doing enough,
that we ought to do a little more than we were doing, the
government wasn't really pushing Cuba the way it should, but
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outside of that, nothing. There wasn't any problem of coopera-
tion. There wasn't any arm-twisting. It was all voluntary.
Q
Did you identify yourself as CIA
A
Yes.
A
in dealings with these companies?
Indeed, I do and we went to the top level, even
the Board Chairman or the president.
No problem at all.
Let's talk about paramilitary operations. We started
but didn't really discuss that in any depth.
10
What kind of paramilitary operations were run
11
12
A
13
against Cuba by the CIA?
Maritime operations.
Is that the extent of it?
14
A
That is the extent of it.
15
16
A
17
18
A
19
20
21
22
A
Were there any aerial operations?
Not to my knowledge.
Leaflet drops?
No.
Bombing?
No. Of course, you had the over-flights. As far as
I am concerned that is the only aerial activity.
That was run by another directorate, wasn't it?
23
A
Yes.
24
Aerial photography, and so forth.
25
25
A
Yes. They run a flight when you ask them. It has to
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be requested and that is about it.
رما
39
Q
And those were run out of the United States?
A
oh, yes.
Can you think of anything, any other type of para-
military activity
A
other than maritime operations.
No. I really can't, no.
'
Am I correct that those operations were manned
by CIA contract employees?
2
(0
دن
Which would include Cuban refugees.
A
Right.
11
A
Right.
12
Q
And some CIA officers?
13
A
Right.
14
Q
Any other branches of the services, Armed Services,
15
This, of course, is posted Bay of Pigs.
16
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involved?
A
Yes. No, not to my knowledge. You have got to remenbdr
that probably down at our Domestic Training Station we
probably have people on detail from other from the military
branches in the Government, but other than that I don't think
that of course, during the Bay of Pigs operation we also
had people detailed into the Agency.
Q Now, the training of persons involved in maritime
operations, I take it, was conducted in part within the
United States and in part
that correct?
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A I would think probably the major portion of it was
conducted within the United States.
States.
The Keys would be considered within the United
A
Oh, yes.
Or were there any locations where it was conducted
outside the United States?
A
Following the Bay of Pigs, I don't think so. Not
to my knowledge. I just don't know, I just don't recall
I think all the training was done
but I don't think that
domestically.
Q
Now, what kinds of operations are included within
this category of maritime operations?
A Well, the infiltration operations, infiltrating
agents into Cuba, exfiltrating agents, hit and run sabotage
raids. That is about the extent of it.
Q
Now, when did these operations commence? Was it
shortly after the Bay of Pigs?
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
19
20
A I would
I think these operations were probably
21
22
at their height during the period about 1963 through, say,
1967. The program was terminated in 1968, I think in December
1968, something like that.
23
Q
Why was the program terminated?
24
A
First of all, it was too expensive. It wasn't prović
25
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it wasn't feasible to continue these things. The agents were
getting wrapped up. We were
wwwwwwwwwp
we just felt that the return
wasn't sufficient for what the investment was.
A
A
You say the agents were getting wrapped up.
Yes.
What do you mean by that?
When we infiltrated an agent, Cubans would identify
him and capture him.
Q These various types of paramilitary operations that
were conducted by the Agency I trust were approved by the
Forty Committee?
A Every operation received a specific approval from
the Forty Committee.
11
12
13
14
ང་
Q
In advance?
15
A
In advance.
16
th
17
Q Now, what was the procedure for submitting
initiating such an operation?
18
A
Well, normally in the case of an infil or an
19
or perhaps we wanted to lay down the cache.
20
for
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You are referring to a cache of arms.
21
A
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A cache of anything, replay of radio, batteries.
whatever they might need. If we decided that we should have
one of these operations and the request would go from here
over to the, I guess to the White House and then the Forty
they used to meet very
Committee at its weekly meeting
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2)
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10
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frequently
no.
they would either approve the operation or say
These operations had to be planned well in advance because
the tides had to be right, the moon had to be in the proper
phase for communications and this type of thing. And these
things, all these were coordinated with the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, the Navy, the Coast Guard, the FBI. If we were
exiltrating people, the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Every Government agency or enforcement agency or military
agency that had any involvement whatsoever, and the entire
thing was coordinated.
Ω Do you know of any such paramilitary operations
that were run unbeknownst to the Forty Committee?
WARD & PAUL
What kind of volume of operations are we talking
12
13
A
No.
14
Q
15
16
17
18
19
__
about?
A You are not talking about a very big volume of
operations because of the planning that had to go into these
things. I would say that probably at the height of the thing
they may be running three or four a month. No more than that.
You have heard Eugenio Martinez refer to having
run 300 operations.
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Is that inaccurate?
A Well, it all depends on what is in his mind. He
may have considered some of the training exercises as opera-
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A
I have seen that.
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tions. Obviously, these guys trained. In order to run one
of these operations, you know, you would have to have a mother
ship in place and rubber boats and the UDT people to go in to
see if there were mines and this type of thing on the shore
before you go. So he may have considered that all these train-
ing exercises were operations but no way did he ever partici-
pate in any three or 400 active operations into Cuba.
Q Now, from what specific locations were these
operations launched?
A They were mostly launched from the keys.
10
11
Q
Any other locations?
12
A
Not to my knowledge.
13
ارم
NOW,
would you
describe for me the kind of hit and
14
25
16
run sabotage operations that were conducted?
A
Well, we conducted one hit and run sabotage against
the Texaco refinery.
Q
What used to be the Texaco refinery?
18
A
What used to be the Texaco refinery.
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
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21
22
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MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE WITNESS: These things, a great amount of planning
went into these things. We did have a model of the refinery.
We agonized over the best approach to the refinery and this
type of thing to do the most effective damage. This was run. It
was successful, as I recall, not totally successful but it was
CECDEY
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a successful operation. By that, I mean they didn't do as
much damage as they wanted to because they had to get out
because the Cuban defense came after them. It was that type
of operation that we did.
44
As I recall, another time we took a team in to burn
some cane fields. Really, the classical operations that we
did in the maritime activities were the infiltrations and
exfiltrations.
Were any CIA operations run out of Guantanamo?
Q
10
A
Not to my knowledge.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
.
Was it impractical to use the base there for
A
Well, the base is so surrounded and has been that
I think if a guy went through that fence you would carry him
back. He wouldn't walk.
MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. MANFREDI: Back on the record.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Are there any other categories of sabotage run out
the Keys other than what you have just described?
A
Well, we did lay down a cache, if you will, sabotage
kits to be used by our own island agents. They contained
sugar to dump into gas tanks and metal fragments to put down
crank cases. Things of this nature.
One of our main objects was to, of course, sabotage
25
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all the oil. We did that with a big operation. We made our
own oil, substandard. Additives, I should say, not oil. We
contracted with an American firm for that. And we shipped
it in through third countries in Europe. It did hit the target.
The thing we wanted to get at was the oil and the
automotive machinery on the island. We knew it was breaking
down and if we could get a complete breakdown we would have
everything at a standstill because in those days the automotive
equipment wasn't coming in that rapidly from Europe because
Castro didn't hve the money to buy it and they weren't going to
extend the credit.
11
12
13
The railroad system was in total disaster. The
Soviets had such a long logistics line, supply line, plus
14
15
16
| --་
the fact that the Cubans didn't like the Soviet equipment
because they were used to good American equipment. And these
were principal targets that we were trying to get to.
In your experience at the Agency can you think of
any other analogus or similar paramilitary operations run
from a base in the United States?
13
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003
20
A
No.
21
Ω
I know there has been some paramilitary training
22
in the United States.
23
A
Oh, yes.
24
Q
In connection with other operations.
25
A
Oh, sure.
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But do you know of any paramilitary operations that
were actually run out of the United States?
A
situation.
No.
As far as you know, then, this is a totally unique
A
'
As far as I am concerned, it is, yes.
Now, how large a Navy was actually organized in
Miami? On a previous occasion you described this to me
the third largest Navy in the Caribbean.
as
10
A
That is right.
11
Q
What kind of equipment did these people have?
12
A
Well, we had
honestly, everything from a cano
13
14
rubber
-
10
16
17
--
18
thing They
up to three to 500 foot mother ship. We had Boston whales
ts. We had a number of craft in, say, the 27-to-
ot length.
they looked like real tubs..
painted and they looked like they wouldn't even floas
they had the fastest engines in
extremely well armed. We had our un
-
0
410 First Sircel, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
water demolition teams. We had a pretty good
20
these craft operate under non-o
GO
21
in
Miami area?
22
A
Yes.
23
Were there a var
covers or was there
24
firm?
25
A
No. Variety
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Fishing companies?
47.
A
Well, fishing companies, Geodetic Survey, marine
supply. In all, I think during the period that the station
and these other entities, were under commercial cover, o non
I think we had 100 so cover companies.
Did
any of these companies actually engage in any
legitimate commercial activities?
A
Not to my knowledge, no.
None of them were any of them in competition with
firms in that area?
D
10
11
A
These are probably what we would call devised
12
facilities.
They were probably registered with the State of
13
Florida and they paid taxes and this type
thing, but one
14
was blown or became known
sed that
16
existence and started
new one
18
19
What did Eugenio Martinez do when he wasn't
these operations?
A
Well, he was down
this is one of the reasons, as
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I told you before, we brought him back and put him under that
contract, that retainer, because of the years that he spent
under such strict operational discipline down in the Keys.
Obviously, he didn't stay down there all the time. He
came back he might come back once a month, or something
like that, to see his family, perhaps once every two weeks
if he
Page got some time off.
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Q I see. So some of these boats and personnel were
actually stationed full-time
A
Oh, yes. Oh, sure.
the Keys
Were there any operations run out of the United
States which involved destruction of crops or poisoning of
sugar or anything of that sort?
A What did you have in mind specifically? You mean the
Puerto Rican thing?
A Well, that is one of the things I had in mind.
Would you describe that for me?
A Well, this is, I guess you could term it a target of
This was where a vessel was carrying Cuban sugar
opportunity.
to the Soviet Union and I forget exactly now what happened to
it but I know that it got a hole below the waterline, or
something, and had to put into Puerto Rico for repairs.
In order to repair it, I guess, and get it in the
drydock or wherever it was, they had to remove the sugar and
put it in the warehouse and at that time I guess somebody came
up with a plan to try to widen the rift between there was
a rift at that time between the Soviets and Cubans and to
put a harmless substance into the sugar that would make it
acid, sour tasting, and it wouldn't harm the sugar or the
individual, and some of this was done. And then when it
leaked, of course, we had to get rid of it and we had a sugar
firm buy it back from the Soviets.
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A
Bought it back from the Soviets?
Yes.
MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR.MANFREDI: Back on the record.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Are there any other operations in which crops were
were there attempts to destroy crops in Cuba?
A
No. No.
10
Place foreign substances in Cuban products?
11
A
In Cuban products?
12
Q
Yes.
13
A
No. Not that I recall. You see, Cuba really
in
14
those days the only thing, Cuba was exporting sugar and nickel.
15
The agriculture sector of the economy was in absolutely total
16
17
(1)
18
19
20
21
22
23.
24
chaos. God, they didn't have any citrus, they didn't have
anything, and the poor people in Cuba were literally starving.
There just wasn't anything to eat. And Fidel was going around
with this big plan
experimental cattle ranches in Cuba. King Ranch had one there.
I forget several other European and American companies that
had experimental cattle ranches there and they were experiment-
ing with the, you know, cross-breeding and this type of thing.
Fidel was preoccupied with this. He went up to
of course, there were a number of
25
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on an old Cuban Airways airplane.
The damn airplane few too
high and the bull became sterile by the time he landed in
Cuba. No thought given to, you know, pressurizing the cabin
and keeping the temperature at a certain point and this type
of thing. So he was helping us all along the line and
this here again, we generate propaganda, incompetence and this
type of thing.
we
But as far as sabotaging any Cuban product, no,
didn't go into that. Our object was to enforce the blockade
and cut off his sources of supply.
زما
:0
2
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8
WARD & PAUL
10
11
Q
When was the Miami Station established?
12
A
As a station?
13
Q
Yes.
14
A
15
16
I think in September 1961.
And that was several years before you became involved
in Cuban matters?
A
Yes.
18
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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21
Q Do you know of any other facilities of that nature
within the United States, Agency facilities?
A You mean, targeted against the opposition?
Yes.
22
A
A station as such?
23
Yes.
24
A
No. You have some communications facilities that
25
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directed towards any domestic activity. They are in support of
overseas communications.
7
00
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Q
Of course, we have
bases and DCD offices and
Office of Security officers, and so forth.
A
Right.
Q
A
Q
But I am talking about actual stations.
Operating stations, no.
This is the only such station in the United States
as far as you know, is that correct?
WARD & PAUL
10
A
Right.
11
Q
And was this station established to deal primarily
12
with Cuban activities?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
10
16
17
(D)
Q
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
A
20
21
22
23
Cuban-related matters?
A With Cuba, period.
Q
Did it have, when it was established, any other
responsibilities with respect to Western Hemisphere activ
A Not to my knowledge.
Entirely limited, then, to Cuban activities?
Yes, and in support of Cuban activity and other
countries in the Hemisphere.
When you joined the group dealing with Cuban
activities, what was the size or the number of personnel
attached to that Station?
24
A
To that Station? Well, the Station had probably a
25
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couple hundred staffers there, full-time employees of the
Agency, plus I don't know how many contract employees,
It was
independent contractors, probably another 200 minimum.
obviously the largest installation we had. I think at its
height it had over 500 people in it.
Q
A
Q
A
Full-time Agency people?
No, no.
Combination of contract and
And full-time, yes. A regular employee we call a stat
10
11
employee.
Now, would Martinez have been one of those contract
12
people?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
Even though he was located down in the Keys?
15
A
Oh, yes.
18
Q
And what kind of facilities did the Station have in
17
Miami?
12
19
20
21
22
23
24
Physical facilities.
A Well, they were located on the south camp
University
the old Richmond Naval Air Station, It was a self-contained
unit. It was pretty well off the beaten path, in fact, damn
well off the beaten path It was about four miles from the
Dixie Highway inland We had our own guard force.
mean the university
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Official cover?
25
A
No. Non-official.
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Non-official cover. What was the cover?
A It was
commercial cover It was called
one was called Zenith Corporation and it was set up with a
President and Vice President, normal corporate setup
Q
Engaging in any business?
A
No.
53
first
Q
Now, in a community of that type, Cuban community,
how long could a non- ficial cover last?
A Well, öbviously it didn't, but it was research
mechanism when you put
activities. Funded
one of these things in for the funding and this type of thing,
for your ostensible customers,
ablishing bank accounts.
Yes, I understand.
14
ཁ་བ་
A
15
So it was a research activity and the only people tha
ever paid any attention to the place were the newspapers. You
16
B
know, somebody would make an inquiry, you know, we can't accept
any work, we are loaded with Government contracts and this
type of thing, and it held up reasonably well. And out of
this o
thing, of course, then we were running these innuméta-
Ble other covers with different
ties. The guard
i
21
22
23
25
force, of course, were like well, they wore uniforms, similar
to the Pinkerton people and this type of thing. And I think
that there was in the later days at that site I think the
Department of Agriculture had offices in there and some other
Government agencies, in other buildings, of course.
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10 And this particular Station, then, was under the
supervision of the group we have been discussing?
A
Yes.
They were staffed within the Cuban Operations.
When did the Western Hemisphere Division resume
responsibilities for the Miami Station?
A
Well, when Des. Fitzgerald left as Chief of the
Special Activities Staff and became Chief of the Western
Hemisphere Division, he brought it back into the Division.
Is there presently a Miami Station?
10
A
Oh
11
12
13
14
15
And how large is it at the present tine?
A
Well, since we
think when we closed down
Cuban Operations, I don't know how large it is at the present
time because we are in one of these periods where we are
reassigning people, but I think by the end of this
there are going to be between 11 and 14 people,
year
17
When you joined the group in 1963, what functions
12
were being performed by the Miami Station?
19
A
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Well, all the classical intelligence functions.
[
80
think I have lined them out at one time
But w
collection of
21
22
positive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitary, this
type of thing.
23
Covert action.
Q
This is the list of things you gave me earlier in
24
the deposition?
25
A
Yes.
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410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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55
Q
Which of these activities, if any of them were
actually being conducted within the Cuban community in Miami?
A Well, the collection of foreign positive and probably;
counterintelligence.
Q
So the Agency was conducting counterintelligence
activities in the Miami area?
A
Yes, sir.
00
8
6
10
11
12
Q
Can you give me an example of the kinds of counter-
intelligence activities that the Agency would be conducting
in that area or was conducting in the area at that time?
A Well, we had a number of joint operations, as I
recall, with the Bureau. We had identified a Castro agent that
13
came in by small boat and when she was
she came in with a
14
ང་
number of other people. When she hit the
--
they had a recep-
15
16
and
17
and
19
20
21
22
83
23
24
25
tion center up in Opa Loca that was really a HEW operation.
The Domestic Contact Division office had people out there
we did, too. Our people from the DDO were under Immigration
and Naturalization Service cover. When the HEW people did the
preliminary interrogation of these people they had to fill
out forms, where were you born, this type of thing, biographic-
type thing. These forms would be passed to our people who would
look at the forms and based on previous experience or what
they might have been doing, and they felt that perhaps they
might have some information of intelligence value, they would
reinterrogate them.
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56
It was in this manner that this gal came to our
knowledge. We surveilled her for a long time and determined
that obviously she was receiving messages and she was
sending messages. So along with the Bureau we put a surveillan
on her and we obtained a van with DF equipment in it and
indeed, she went on the air in the morning at 5:00 o'clock
or 4:30 or whatever it was, and the direction finder found
it was being beamed toward Cuba, this type of thing, and that
was oen of the examples of the CI activities we were involved
in.
༢.༥
10
10
7
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00
8
0
!
10
11
Q.
Were there many activities of that type?
12
WARD & PAUL
A.
Not really.
You have got to remember that the
13
Bureau's Cuban squad was fairly small. I mean, it was a
large
14
squad in terms of FBI squads. It had 36 people on it, some-
15
16
17
thing like that, but 36 people trying to follow a couple of
hundred thousand Cubans around, you know, it is pretty mega-
tive. This was one of the reasons that obviously from
18
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
21
22
23
24
in those days when we had formed these revolutionary fronts
which were being run by the Cuban exiles, they were reporting
to Case Officers and they would report on things in the
community, of people they thought were suspect and this type
of thing. These leads in turn were then given to the Bureau
and it was to this extent that we got ourselves involved
in CI activity.
25
Ω
Would it be fair to say that the involvement in CI
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activities in that area was primarily a function of the over-
whelming number of these people and the Bureau's inability
to properly staff the thing?
A
Yes, yes. You have got to remember, too, that a lot
of the people on that Cuban squad were in the legal section
of the Embassy in Havana. You know, the FBI overseas is
1
known as Legal Attaches,
obviously working out of the Embassy
the same as our Station was, and a lot of our Station officers
from Havana were down in Miami at that time. So there was a
relationship there that had gone over a period of years
between the Agency and the Bureau.
MR.MANFREDI: We will reconvene at 1:00 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 11:45 o'clock a.m., the taking of
the deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m., this
same day.)
10
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14
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ECADZT
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flg mbh
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
Thereupon,
SECRET
AFTERNOON SESSION
WILLIAM C. STURBITTS,
called as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA
Activities, and having been first duly sworn by the Notary
Public, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION
(Cont'd)
'7
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Q.
10
11
When we recessed for lunch you were talking about the
Miami Station
Do I understand that the Miami Station was the
largest CIA station in the world?
ሊ
12
The largest CIA station in the world.
Ω.
At its height?
13
A.
14
、.*
15
Nothing comes anyplace close to it.
.. I wonder if you could describe briefly for the record
what the AMOTS were.
બ
410 First Sircet, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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21
22
23
24
25
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851
organization in exile. We full intended
A.
Well, the AOTS were Cuban a Cuban intelligence
this was part of the
Should Castro
overall contingency plan that US Government had.
ever be overthrown, these people would be the nucleus to go into
Cuba and form a new Ministry of the Interior.
.. Now, Ministry of the Interior, is that a euphemism
for Security Agency?
A. Well, in most countries of the world the Ministry of
Interior, unlike ours, is the security force, internal and
Page 61
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WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
C
N
A.
SECRET
And these people were Cuban exiles?
Cuban exiles.
How large an outfit were the AMTS2
59
A.
Well, at one time
I can give you the exact figures
but I know it well exceeded over 100, probably closer to
Go ahead.
like
7
00
9
10
__
A.
Probably closer to 150, something like that.
Now, would that 150 persons be included within the
three to 500 who made up the "iami Station?
A.
No.
Q.
11
1--4
That was over and above the personnel of the Miami
Station?
12
A.
Right.
13
0.
These people were fulltime CIA employes, weren't they?
14
A.
Right. WEll, let me
these people really were
15
16
they were being subsidized by the Agency. They were emplo
which was
Latin
two cover companies, the largest
American Social and Economic Research. Then we had another
smaller group that did the interrogating and they were under
another cover, commercial cover, I just don't recall what it
ostensibly were employees of these whall,
owned proprietaries of the Agency. Thev were duly constituted,
incorporated, paid taxes, all this type
13
3.3
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
was. But these
21
22
23
24
25
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 62
The salaries of these people, although paid indirectly,
were paid by the CIA?
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
25
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
w
A.
SECRET
That is right.
And was training provided than by the Agency?
oh,
ves.
A.
You said the smaller group of the two groups that mad
10
0%
'7
00
up the conducted the interrogations, is that correct?
A.
Right.
When you speak of interrogations, are you referring to
debriefings?
A. I am referring to debriefings of newly arrived exiles
or perhaps exiles that had been in the country whon during their
time here had acquired new information.
.10
11
Q.
How were those
12
how and where were those debriefinga
conducted?
13
A.
Well, normally the debriefings were conducted at Opa
14
Loca.
15
Ω
That is the Air Base?
16
A.
That is the old Air Base there but that is whet
37
reception center was for all the Cuban refugees coming in.
18
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21
22
23
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Sometimes if there was going to be a lengthy debriefing, we had
a residence which we rented and the interior was changed into
small rooms like this where you could bring people in, sit them
down, under controlled conditions, and debrief them without any
interference and this type of thing.
For how long a period did these debriefings go on?
60
!
NW 50955
WARD & PAUL
18
9
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
4
A.
SECRET
You mear in terms of years?
Yes.
A.
Well, I would think that I would probably say from
61
مع
00
0
about 1962, and I think the debriefings as such, of course
we relied principally on the airlift for the people coming out
and when the airlift was cut off, which Castro did
about, I guess about 1970 or '71, in that timeframe
..
A.
I see.
cut off
that stopped the flow of the refugees, so we just
terminated that part of the activity.
Well, in addition to debriefing refugees that care
in in the airlift, did the smaller group of AMOTS) have an other
intelligence gathering functions
10
11
12
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
In the community?
ק:
A
Well, I can't give you a real ves or no to that.
would suppose that there is an outside possibility they
have been used to debrief people within the community, within
1
the Cuban community, but we had in the organization
all *
410 First Stiel, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
21
22
23
24
people were Cuban with the exception of we had what we call an
On-Site Case Officer, who was a fulltime staff employee and าย
had a couple of assistants, including a secretary. These peon!
were directly under his control. Though the organization as it
was set up, they had their own chief and this type of thin,
but the chief took his instructions from the On-Site Case :
cer
25
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:
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WARD & PAUL
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2
เค
SECRET
62
Of course, if these people went out and did something on
their own, they could do things we were not aware of, obviously.
You can't you know what they are doing during their eight or
ten hours that they are going to work everyday but once they
leave, we don't know what they are up to.
..
A.
commercia
Did they have CIA credentials?
No sir, because they were proprietány hires of hish
Cover
Did CIA levy any intelligence requirements upon these
m
رن
people other than in their duties
in their debriefing
10
capacity, I should say?
11
A.
No. When
there were
obviously there was a
12
standard debriefing form that covered questions of intelligence
13
interest or a battle, you know, anything economic questions,
14
morale, and this type of thing. When these questions
when
26
these people were cebriefed and the debriefer wrote
***
.....
report, it would be sent from the AMOTS over to the Station
17
If the debriefing report contained something of positive
18
intelligence, of that nature, the Case Officer
well, not the
Case Officer but a staffer in the Station may or may not jot
down some additional requirements and ask that that person be
recontacted and asked specific questions.
C
Now, in addition to debriefing, what else did this
smaller broup of CMS do for the Agency in the Miami area?
A. This was their prime nurnose.
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23.
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Q
How large was that particular group?
A.
Oh, there were only about, I would say at the outside,)
I think there were about five lebriefers with the support peopi.
which would be secretaries, translators, strictly administrativ-
types. I don't think there were more than probably 12 or 15
in that group, if there were that many.
MR. MANFREDI: off the record.
(055 the record discussion)
BY MR. MANFREDI: Back on the record.
§.
Before we move on to further discussion of the AMOTS
could you briefly describe for me what role the CIA plays in
resettling Cuban enigres?
11
12
A.
13
CIA doesn't resettle Cuban emigres.
ດ
What Agency is charged with that responsibility?
A.
Health, Education and Welfare.
S
Does CIA play any role in that process?
A.
We may assist if we are asked but the idea of the
19
اه
airlift was having relatives here for somebody to claim you when
you came in so you wouldn't become a ward of the State of the
Government, and normally when these refugees came in, they were
processed through the Center and then they had a place down on
Biscayne Boulevard they called Freedom House and this was, of
if need be and they had to
22
course, all run by HEW, and they
23
stay overnight or stay several days, HEW would put them up and
care for them in Freedom House.
25
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Then as soon ☐ they could, of course, they would move them
to the areas where they wanted to resettle them, where the
relatives were, this type of thing, and we had nothing to do
with that whatsoever.
Turning back to the S and to the larger of the
two groups, what was the name of that group again?
A.
Amer
Social and Economic Research
We can call them LASER for short?
A.
Really, they are both
LIVE GRE
the only reason we separated
10
11
12
the two groups was for security because we had one group housed
over here and the smaller groun was over here.
Obviously we
couldn't bring these refugees into the larger establishment, so
that is why we took the smaller establishment to presezve sorar
13
Cover
14
..
Okay.
What activities was the larger groub engaged
15
in?
A. Well, the larger group was engaged in the collection
of intelligence.
They compiled dossiers on the principals
inside Cuba. They carded
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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came from
25
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Page 67
they kept card files on every
refugee that came through the reception center. They provided
they did do economic and social reporting. They put out a
monthly newsletter based on the information they collected.
The information these people collected as opposed to the
information we collected, ther's was all unclassified.
That
all the information they had came from human source:
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
ت)
8
00
or overt publications.
SECRET
We subscribed
65
well, the proprietary
subscribed to a number, a great many newspapers, periodicals,
Spanish language type things.
Q Well, they were doing clandestine collections as well,
weren't they?
A.
I don't know if you could call it clandestine.
What
7
a)
(s
10
11
did you have in mind?
Q. Well, would they run agents in the cornunity?
A.
Well, yes, there were penetrations of the Cuban
community, yes.
And that is clandestine collection, isn't it?
..
A.
WEll, I call that human resources.
for and
18
..
All right. Where are these files now?
13
14
...J
..
ハン
16
18
19
A. They are in the Headquarters here. A great many
them were really destroyed. It got to be rather comic. We
went down there several years ago just looking through the filen
to see what kind of shape they were in and they had such great
information for intelligence value in there as a picture of a
gal who might be the daughter of a Cuban refugee who just won
a swimming meet. It got rather ridiculous. So we purge those
430 First Street, 5.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
223
23
20
files and took out that material, you know, which just didn't
21
22
have any pertinancy at all.
..
there is a card, index card for each Cuban refugee?
How are the files organized? You indicated before that
24
A.
Right.
25
..
Are there soft cover files as well?
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دکا
5
ت
ແມ່
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66
A.
Yes.
Q.
For each Cuban refugee?
A.
No. Not for each Cuban refugee.
I think, as Ι.
recall, those card files were up in the milli-ns and I forget,
we had I guess the manilla files, probably went into the tens
of thousands, I would think.
Q. Now, is there any way to determine from those files
which of those exiles have become United States citizens?
WARD & PAUL
410 first Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
A.
No way..
Has there been any effort to make such a determina-
A.
We made an effort at one time but this
--
You can
9
10
§.
tion?
1
12
نات
13
14
18
13
become nationalized out in California and your record of
nationalization wouldn't be reflected here in Washington Or
two years. That is how far they are behind.
A.
So I take it
So there is no central index you can go to.
there is a central index you can go to but it is not current
I take it, then, that there is a possibility that
CIA has some files in Miami or here in Langley on Cubans wh
are
21
22
23
25
now American citizens?
A.
Absolutely true.
Now, are any of those files likely to contain
derogatory information about the individuals involved?
Well, no. One of the things these people do, of
A.
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 69
....
410 First Stich, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 702) 544-6000
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"
(
c.
"3
10
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67
course,
we had taets for recruitment.
It could range from
anything from a first mate, a captain or chief engineer of a
Cuban maritime vessel to Fidel. When we targeted these people
as possible recruitments, for possible recruitment, we would ask
that all the information on that individual be assembled so that
we could do a complete target study habits, you know,
everything right down the line. In case of some of the more.
important ones, of course, we had psychological studies prepared
where we had enough information.
first mate of the
But this is one of the things
these people did. If we said we want everything you have on the
one of the Cuban ships, then they would
start looking through the papers or anything else to come up
with anything they could on what the guy's current activities
are, his background, his life habits, this type of thing.
.. Well, the AMOTS were going to be the intelligence
service of Cuba?
A.
Right.
0. And they obviously were going to perform some
function
in addition to recruitment of agents?
A.
Right.
Q.
I take it they were trained in counterintelligence,
gathering of positive intelligence, recruitment and all of the
traditional skills, is that correct?
A.
That is about right.
So I trust that they had files that were amassed for
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 70

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11
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purposes other than recruitment?
68
2
10
3
<
5
A.
Well
me de
0.
For example, let me ask you this. Were any of these
files on Cubans who were suspected or thought to be a possible
internal security problem?
10
6
A.
No.
No.
They didn't keep those types of files.
We
7
00
9
10
11
would simply task them with through your sources what do you
have on so and so. They would not be told the reason why we
wanted the information on anybody.
Q
Well, I guess with several million fiels or several
million cards and tens of thousands of files it is difficult to
make generalizations about the kind of information that is in
12
WARD & PAUL
those files?
13
A.
Well, that is right.
14
15
you this.
16
17
. So I guess I won't ask you to do so, but I want to ask
I trust that there is the possibility that some of
these files do contain what you in the trade refer to as deroga-
tory information?
18
19
20
21
A.
Right.
22
☐ rst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
23
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NW 50955 DočId:32203851
Q. And finally I take it that no effort has been made to
study that particular situation?
Page 71
A.
I would assume so.
And that so much of them may
some of the subjects
of those files may now be American citizens?
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freed
You know, we have a traveler program where when Cubans travel,
2 whether they are on an island or perhaps other places, their
ان
4
names turn up on manifests and this type of thing. Well, these
are put into a machine system. What we did when these cards
5 were all transferred back here in Miami, we did go through them
6
at random and pick out cards and then try to match it up with
what the machine system had to see if there was updated informa-.
tion in the machine system that would show that this guy had
become a naturalized citizen, and it didn't work out. So
10
Ω.
Excuse me, off the record.
11
(Off the record discussion)
MR. MANFREDI:
Back on the record.
12
WARD & PAUL
13
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Q
14
I want to straighten out confusion in my own mind
where these files presently reside.
15
The cards I take it are
presently here in Washington?
16
A.
The cards and what is left of the files.
17
..
That is the soft cover files?
18
A.
Yes.
19
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Q.
And
20
A.
I assume they are either here or down at the
21
Records Center.
22
Q.
And where is the computer system?
23
A.
You mean our machine system?
We have
24
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02
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WARD & PAUL
10
13
SECRET
information on the cards?
A
Right down on the third floor.
That is not the hydro system?
50
6
00
70
..
A.
oh,
no, no.
Q
This is a separate
A.
This is a complete
only the Latin American Division
uses this particular system.
Q
What kind of records
www wi
strike that.
The MOTS are still in existence, aren't they?
9
A.
No.
10
n
11
I thought they were going out in June.
A.
Well, okay. They are on the books until June.
12
Q.
I see.
13
A.
But they have all been let go. They were let go
14
15
they were all given six months termination bonuses and told to
go find a job.
16
Գ
Do they have any facilities, physical facilities, in
17
Miami at this time?
18
A.
no.
19
So there are no records in Miami?
20
☐ A
No. No. We brought all those records back here.
21
Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
22
23
23
Did the MOTS have law enforcement responsibilities
in the Miami community?
A.
NW 50955 Do Id: 32203851 Page 73
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10
St
5
00
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9
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A.
SECRET
Not to my knowledge.
71
Q
What else did they do, this larger group of AMOTS that!
was not doing debriefings?
A.
Well, when they were trained in trade craft we would
send them to other countries, in Europe and within the Hemisphere
to train some of the local services in those countries.
They
served as safe housekeepers in other countries. They served in
listening posts where we had audio
Foreign listening posts?
Oh, yes, foreign.
Any domestic listening posts?
A.
10
..
11
A.
NO,
no.
12
Գ
13
A.
I would assume
14
Any domestic surveillances conducted by these people?
this I cannot answer because : reall
don't know. I know that they did a great number of things but
15
to my knowledge there wasn't any domestic surveillance
16
conducted by them.
17
18
Now, if it was conducted, and if it is a matter of record,
I don't know where it could be.
19
✓ Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
20
21
22
23
23
4 What intelligence gathering activities did they
conduct in the Cuban community in Miami?
A.
One of the big problems we had was within that Cuban
community, as I said earlier, were some of the militant anti-
NW 50955 DoğId: 32293851 Castro groups and this just drove the FBI and the Coast Guard
Page 74
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72
agencies in Miami plus the State government enforcement agencies
up the wall and, of course,
I guess it was around
the
0:
ة
5
6
Government allowed a lot of this to go on for awhile but I guess
about 1965 or 1964 they got a little tired of it and they
started to tighten up.
I am sure the MOTS were in part responsible for proposing
alerting us and in turn we alerted the enforcement agencies when
7
there was going to be a raid against Cuba by one of these
8
A number of times raids were aborted, picked
10
militant groups.
up by the Coast Guard or Florida Coastal Patrol or the Bureau,
this type of thing.
11
Ղ
These people were arrested?
12
A
Oh, yes.
13
Զ
Prosecuted?
14
A.
Not really.
15
Q.
Any of them American citizens?
16
A.
Not to my knowledge.
17
Q
This would be Alpha 66 type groups?
18
A.
I don't know whether this quy
well, you know, they
19
are still after this Masferrer and this guy Donestevez.
I don'
20
know if they ever did get him in jail but they had him up on
21
22
so many charges and he was a Cuban exile that made it big here.
He was a boat manufacturer, small boats, but whether he ever
23
served any time or not I don't know. I know he was convicted
DocId: 32203851 Page 75
24
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8
7
6
15
SECRET
73
I truthfully don't know whether any of these people ever went
to jaul or not.
.. Other than identifying operations by militant anti-
Castro groups, what other intelligence gathering did the AMOTS
engage in?
A.
Well, of course, there was a counterintelligence
I wouldn't call it a project but a counterintelligence interest
at that time because we knew that they were infiltrating agents.
Գ
Cubans were?
9
A.
The Cuban Government.
10
They couldn't do it very well
11
on the airlift because, as I said before, the aged, infirm, and
12
young, but they did infiltrate them by small boat. And I don't
13
well, we had knowledge that this was on and we did try to
identify those people whom we thought would be suspect.
14
..
Was that done in cooperation with the Bureau?
15
A.
16
Q
17
18
With the Bureau, yes.
Because of their manpower limitations you folks were
in a better position to do it?
A. Yes, and language-wise, too. That is always a big
factor.
19
20
Q
And this was conducted through the AMOTS?
21
A
Yes.
22
23
B
How substantial was the counterintelligence operation
in the community?
24
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16
SECRET
74
would call a great number of suspect infiltrees, but they lid
come up with a few promising ones and ones it turned over to the
Bureau, of course, we have no idea what the hell ever happens
to it because, you know, you just
unless you personally know
the guy in the Bureau that is handling the case, you might as
5
6
well forget it. You have got too many other things to do.
7
What other positive intelligence gathering activities
8
..
were they engaging in?
A.
Well, as I told you, one part of them were engaged in
9
electronic
10
Where was that done?
11
A.
Down in Florda, down in Homestead.
12
WARD & PAUL
This is Southeast off Homestead?
13
A
Yes..
14
Զ
What ere they intercepting?
15
A.
Well, originally they were set up to assist with the
16
17
18
19
st Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
20
21
22
23
: 322 ਤੱ
DoeId:32203851
commo. for the infiltration.
As we phased down the maritime activities, they were nado
available to intercept Cuban Communications,
the frequencies they wanted c„vered and the Cuban Communications
nets they wanted covered, such as the border guards. Another
important one was the sugar network. We had the border guards,
sugar, transportation, maritime. I think there was an interior
network they covered too. But all electronic intercept covera
77
ISA tasks them with
Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
a)
10
10
6
7
_ _
17
SECRET
75
Now, since they belong to us we could levy ceratin require
ments on them if we wanted to, which we did very infrequently
because the common interests,
we have a common interest in
what NSA has an interest in and unless there were one particular
operation going that they wanted to cover exactly what the Cubans
were doing, then we would task our people with that.
For instance, we knew a Cuban vessel was taking arms into
Africa and our operators saw the thing leave Havana and then
there was absolute silence. So nobody knew where the thing was.
But we knew arms were being loaded and we finally located the
boat in an African port, I mean the intercept op
10
11
it came back on the air. And this is the type of thing.
As
12
a matter of fact, they were unloading arms in Algiers. And 200
13
Cuban troops.
14
15
MR. MANFREDI: Off the record.
(Off the record discussion)
16
MR. MANFREDI: Let's go back on the record.
17
BY MR. MANFREDI:
18
n. Were the Comminications they
19
exclusively foreign communications?
20
21
22
2 2 2
A.
Q
25
23
A.
No.
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 78
Exclusively foreign communications.
Were they intercept ngfany communications, one terminus
of which was the United States?
NW 50955
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
,་
כי.
10
A.
Right.
SECRET
Ω.
On the Island?
A.
Right.
Or between the Island and other locations?
A.
Yes.
10
0.
But not between the Island and the United States?
A.
No. Let's go off the record on that.
7
76
8
9
10
11
(Off the record discussion)
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Q. To your knowledge were the AMOTS engaging in the
communications
er that facility or else-
where, in the Miami area or in the southern part of the country?'
12
A.
No.
13
..
Of other communications?
14
A.
No.
15
..
Is that their only intercept facility?
16
A.
(Nods affirmative)
17
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
10
16
19
20
that.
Do you know of your own personal knowledge
Do you have any knowledge of any wiretaps, surveillances,
breakins or activities of that type other than what we have
discussed
21
A.
No sir.
22
that were conducted by the AMOTS?
23
A.
No sir. I want to go off the record a minute.
24
DocId: 32203851
Page off the record discussion)
NW 50955
Phone (Area 202) 644-6000
WARD & PAUL
☐ St Street, 5.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Fi
2
10
BY MR. MANFREDI:
SECRET
77
Q. I understand that a study of the history of the AMOTS
has been prepared by one of your members.
A.
That is right.
<bi
Q.
What is his name?
5
10
A.
I think it is Joaquin
I can't remember the last
50
The poor guy is dead now anyway.
Well, I will just have
00
2
0
name.
to get that for you.
Զ
What is the title of the study?
A.
The title of the study
W dn
it is part of the historical
10
11
series of the Miami Station and I think it is just entitled "The
AMOT Organization."
12
Գ
What is the historical series of the Miami Station?
13
A.
It was done when Paul Hennes
What
14
we try to do as we go along, from year to year, is set aside
15
what is considered to be some of the more siginificant things
اسر
16
17
the station might do or that might occur in the station personne)
wise, this type of thing, and then these things are written.
18
Q.
I see.
19
A.
At intervening periods of time.
20
When was this particular report prepared the AMOTS?
21
A.
I think it was preared in 1967 or 168.
22
..
It is a fairly lengthy document, isn't it?
23
A.
Yes.
24
DoeId: 32203851 Page 80

Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
SECRET
activities of the AlioTS?
A.
78
It starts back in 1959 when we first started using
this gent..
ties?
A.
First started using what?
First started using, I forget what his name was.
I see.
Is it a chronological study of their activi-
ליד
☑
ریا
Οι
7
00
Ο
૧ And you have a copy of that in your custody?
A
Yes.
A.
Yes.
10
11
I would like to see that document. And we will try
and obtain it through Hank Knoche's office.
12
WARD & PAUL
A.
Okay.
13
Excuse me just for a minute.
14
ང།་
(Off the record discussion)
16
MR. MANFREDI: On the record.
16
17
18
(7)
19
irst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
21
22
23
24
Agency in the Miami area touch peripherally on some of the things
had has been charged with investigating, so I am going to turn
DocId: 32203851 Page_81_inn
him
..
Lima น
-----
20
20
BY MR. MANFREDI: I wonder if you would
let me ask you
this. There have been some allegations in the press that
prominent newsmen in be Miami area have in the past been agents
of the CIA.
Mr. Olsen just came into the office and I asked him to join
us because some of your involvement in Cuban activities in the
NW 50955
NW 50955
Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
-1
0}
:0
H
10
00
9.
SECRET
MR. OLSEN: Thank you, George.
BY MR. OLSEN:
79
Can you begin, since I have not been in on the begin-
ning of the interview here, can you start off, Mr. Sturbitts,
by giving me about a one or two minute resume of what your
contacts were with the Cuban elements in Florida and elsewhere
withing this country on behalf of the Agency?
A. Well, I was a member of the Special Activities Staff
which was in effect the Cuban task force at Headquarters and the
Miami Station functioned under the Special Activities Staff in
:
10
a variety of intelligence collection and operations.
11
A
Who was the head of the Special Activities Staff?
12
A.
Desmond Fitzgerald.
13
Q
And who was his immediate superior?
14
A
Dick Bissell. Excuse me. No.
At that time it was
15
Dick Helms. He was the DEP.
16
Q
Deputy Director for Plans?
17
A.
Deptuty Director for Plans.
13
Ο
What period of time are we talking about now?
19
A.
We are talking in the period of 1963 to 1965.
20
40
Off the record.
21
22
23
MR. MANFREDI:
(Off the record discussion)
BY MR. OLSEN:
DocId: 32203851 Page 820ring the 1959 to '61 period?
Q
So you were not involved in this Special Activities
NW 50955
rst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
כי!
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80
Q.
Or the period leading up to the Bay of Pigs?
A.
No.
..
And you were not involved in this program at all during
10
6
7
8
9
the same time that E. Howard Hunt was involved in it?
A.
No.
Q. Do you know what the position was Mr. Hunt occupied in
connection with the Cuban operations of the Agency during the
period of 1959 to '61?
A. To my recollection, Howard Hunt was on the Covert
Action Staff dealing in propaganda.
Q.
Was this propaganda directed to the Cuban people in
this country?
10
11
12
A.
No. Cuban people abroad.
13
14
Q And what was his connection with the planning for the
Bay of Pigs?
15
A.
I would have to review the record to really answer
16
that.
I don't know.
17
Q
Didn't he spend an awful lot of time in the Miami
18
(1)
area?
19
A.
20
A
He commuted quite a bit.
Between Washington and
Washington and Miami.
21
22
23
wwww wwww
and Miami.
24
'61?
DocId: 32203851 Page 83 Right.
During the period of 1960 and early
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81
10
7
8
0
published materials that he was the person who was in charge of
organizing a political unit among Cubans in this country which
would constitute the Cuban government in exile. Do you recall
where that was?
A.
..
That could be quite true.
Have you reviewed, Mr. Sturbitts, the Agency's entire
files relating in any way to the Cuban operations and particu-
larly with reference to whether they reflect any contacts
between the Agency and Frank Sturgis?
A.
Yes.
10
Q
Or Frank Fiorini?
11
A.
There is no relationship.
12
13
14
Is it your testimony that the records and files of
the Agency reveal no official or unofficial contact of any
nature with Frank Sturgis?
10
A.
To my knowledge that is true.
16
tཟང་
Q
I take it from that that you are emphatic in your
testimony that he was never an employee of the Agency?
- 18
A.
Extremely emphatic.
19
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
Q And you are also equally emphatic to the effect that
he was never a contract agent of the Agency?
21
A.
Exactly.
22
..
Do you know whether he ever served in the capacity
23
of being an informer or informant to the Agency?
24
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Phone (Area 202) 544 6000
j
0
כיו
<4
SECRET
You mean a source of
32
A.
Source of information of another agent. Another
..
Do the files of the Agency reflect any matter?
To my knowledge I don't recall anything like that but
agency agent.
50
50
6
7
00
8
10
11
12
A.
it is entirely possible that that could have happened without
being a matter of record.
0.
Do the files of the Agency reveal any instance what-
ever in which Frank Sturgis was ever asked to undertake any
kind of an operation or activity on behalf of the Agency?
A.
To my knowledge, nothing.
..
Do the files of the Agency reveal any evidence
whatever that Frank Sturgis was ever paid anything directly or
indirectly by the Agency?
13
ད-མ」
14
A.
To my knowledge, no.
15
Q
Now, when you say "to my knowledge, no", in answer
WARD & PAUL
16
to some of these questions, do I understand that to mean that
17
18
you are giving us the full benefit of your knowledge on the
basis of a full review of the Agency's records and files?
19
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
A.
On Frank Sturgis, yes.
20
Q.
Okay. During the period of time that you were with
21
the Special Activities Group from 1963 to '66, first of all,
22
can you tell us when that began in 1963?
23
A.
When the Special Activities Group. ·
24
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....
62
10
<+
SECRET
A.
It began
well, it began around June of '63.
Group began?
83
C.
Now, with particular reference to the last half of
1963, including whatever period in June '63 may not have been
involved, were there a great many Cubans in the southern United
States who were active in revolutionary fronts that were being
sponsored by the Agency?
A
Wellm you mean Agency sponsored fronts?
0
Q.
Yes.
WARD & PAUL
10
11
12
frast
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
20
21
A.
The Agency subsidized these fronts in an effort to
have unity rather than these split factions, split anti-Castro
factions.
Obviously the leaders of the fronts knew that the
CIA was subsidizing.
Supposedly the people that joined these
fronts did not know they were being subsidized by the Agenc
or the U.S. Government.
Q But when you say "supposedly," does the fact appear
to be otherwise?
A. Well, based on my experience with the Cubans and this
type of thing, and their penchant to talk, I would think that
it wouldn't take long for knowledge of any subsidy to surface
itself.
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
22
9. Was it your opinion and impression at that time, “r.
Sturbitts, that a great many Cubans considered themselves to be
1
23
involved in the CIA organizations?
24
DocId: 32203851 Page 86
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6
145
او
-!
Q.
2
area?
SECRET
And again with particular reference to the Miami
84
A.
Yes.
Q
Was there also Cuban activity of this sort elsewhere
in the United States? I am asking now particularly with
reference to New Orleans.
A.
I am
There was some Cuban presence in New Orleans.
really not familiar with what happened in New Orleans that was
sort of a sideshow to Miami.
WARD & PAUL
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
20
Q
But the same is
it is possible that some of the
same Cuban organizations which were being sponsored or funded
A.
by the Agency also had activities or operations in New Orleans?
I don't know if I can answer that, whether they had
the same functions. I know that some funding arrangement for
subsidizing the organizations in Miami was carried out through
New Orleans.
Ω Well, can you be more specific about what you mean
by that?
A. Well, in other words, to fund these organizations we
were subsidizing there had to be some ostensible source of
income for them to continue what they were doing.
A great
well, not a great number, but a number of select
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
21
number
22
23
24
people were well, they were selected and then they were
talked to,
to pose as trustees, if you would, or directors or
DocId: 3220385hPage you might have of SAMO of those organizations in order
NW 50955
☐irst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544 0000
си
༢་༥
10
7
00
SECRET
to get the funding through to the organizations.
These people were normally prominent people and
85
Q. And did they get funded by the Agency, then, through
the mdeium of prominent and well-to-do people?
A.
These well-to-do people ostensibly would call a friend
of theirs that had been made trustee of another type of activity
and say, you know, we are trying to assist these Cubans in this
type of thing. Could your organization give us any money, and
the guy on the other end would say, sure, WA can probably lend
you $25,000 or something like that, or donate $25,000. This is
the way the funding went into the fronts.
10
11
12
And was some of that funding arranged through people
in New Orleans?
13
14
་་
31
16
17
A.
I would think so. I believe so.
Were any of the people in New Orleans through whom
that funding operation was effected people who turned out to be
involved in the investigations conducted by Jim Garrison?
A.
18
19
20
20
Not to my knowledge.
How about David Ferrie? Was he ever connected with
the Agency in any manner at all in providing funds or assistance
to Cubans or Cuban groups?
21
22
23
a great many people that did this.
A.
I couldn't say. I am just not familiar with we had
Q
How about Clay Shaw? Was Clay Shaw ever used as a
24
DocId: 32203851. Page 88
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
WARD & PAUL
Fi
217
..)
SH
دیا
2
SECRET
86
A.
A.
This I do not know either.
Pardon?
This I don't know.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
A.
Where would that information be available?
Well, we have a guy that used to work with me who was
down in New Orleans at that time. He would probably know.
CO
8
Q.
Is he in the building?
A.
Yes.
9
Q
What is his name?
10
A.
Bill Kent.
11
.
Bill Kent!
12
A.
Yes.
13
BY MR. OLSEN:
14
Who is Bill Kent with now?
Which department?
25
A.
He is still with the DDO.
16
BY MR. MANFREDI:
17
Q
Western Hemisphere Division?
18
A.
No.
He is on one of the staffs. He is on the
I
19
think Career Management Group Staff.
20
Q.
Is he officed near you?
21
A.
No.
He is down in the basement.
22
irst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
200
23
..
24
NW 50955 DoeId: 3220385
Page 89
BY MR. OLSEN:
Do the Agency files reveal who the intermediaries were
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
ri
(\)
."
3
SECRET
87
A.
..
A.
Q.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
to the Cuban movements?
Do you know whehter do you know the identity of any
of them in New Orleans?
10
30
2
8
es
A.
No. No. Totally unfamiliar with anything that took
Ο
I take it that Frank Sturgis was never an intermediar:
lace in New Orleans.
pla
for providing funds to the Cuban fronts?
10
11
A.
The files that I have don't reflect it.
I think we covered this already just a few minutes agd
but let me make sure that we have got it on the record.
12
WARD & PAUL
13
I understood you to say that it was your impression in 1963
that large numbers of Cuban exiles, Cuban people in the southern
14
15
United States, talked about and believed that they were involve!
in the CIA sponsored activities. Is that true?
16
A.
That is right.
17
Q
Was it also your understanding and your impression
18
that there was a good deal of talk among this Cuban element in
19
First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
the southern United States about plans or prospects for the
assassination of Fidel Castro?
21
A.
22
23
24
I would say no. I don't think there was
got to remember that these people were embittered. They lost
their homeland, their possessions, they lost everything and they
DocId: 32203851. .Page, 90..
you have
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410 F.
Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
1
A.
2
14
<
10
00
SECRET
That is Fiedl Castro?
88
That is right, and they would probably verbally do
anything they could to get rid of him.
Was there a lot of talk about killing Castro among
these Cubans?
A.
I would say among the Cuban exiles there probably was
a lot of talk about that.
Q. Did you participate yourself in the overhearing of
such conversations?
A.
No.
10
Q
Was this a matter of something that was reported to
11
you?
12
A
Well, it was
I really don't remember what the
13
source of it was but I know in my discussions with people at the
14
Station and from my visits down there and that type of thing
18
19
15
16
17
that this subject always came up. What were they going to do
with Fidel? How are they going to get rid of him and this type
of thing. I don't mean the Agency people. This is what the
Cuban exile community was discussing.
Q
20
Yes. Do you know what Howard Hunt was doing for the
Agency in 1963?
21
22
A. Well, it seems to me he was here at Headquarters in
'63 and I think he was assigned to the European Division of the
23
23
DDP.
24
25
NW 50955
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Q. This is your best recollection
SECRET
WARD & PAUL
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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2
pf
1
A.
Yes.
2
Գ
10
SECRET
89
at the moment. Is it possible that he was with
Domestic Operations Division in the field of proprietaries
engaged
A.
Q
I guess you are right, yes. I believe he was there.
Did you personally know Howard Hunt?
A.
Զ
A.
'
No.
Never met him?
I met him. That is all. I can't say I know him.
Q You would not have known anything about his where-
abouts on any particular day, then. Is that true?
10
11
A.
Can we go off the record?
12
(Off the record discussion.)
13
THE WITNESS: Let's go back on the record.
14
15
a
and
00
A.
BY MR. OLSEN:
I would like to have it on the record.
Do you have a particular day?
17
Q
No.
I am just asking you if your acquanitance with
18
.19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
20
Hunt was such that you would have known of his whereabouts on
any particular day.
A.
No.
21
22
Was it very infrequently that you ever saw him?
A. Oh, I would see him in the halls, this type of thing,
23
but
MA AÐ
bump into him perhaps downtown on the street.
24
Q
But you would have no occasion for knowing from one
25
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Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
1
10
st
4
10
60
SECRET
day to the next where he was?
A.
No.
90
Q.
Have you ever conducted any kind of inquiry on behalf
of the Agency as to where he was on November 22, 1963?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And when did you conduct that inquiry?
2
00
10
11
12
A.
I have done it twice that I recall and the most recent
one was I guess
I am just trying to think. Well, it wasn't
too long ago because we did have an inquiry and we obtained the
time and the attendance records from the Office of Finance which
showed that Howard Hunt was on sick leave on that day.
Զ Was this just fairly recently?
WARD & PAUL
A.
Yes.
13
Q
14
གས་
I understood from what files I have seen, Mr.
Sturbitts, that the only records that were available from the
15
Office of Finance showed that he had had nine hours of sick leave
16
during the two-week pay period ending the 23rd of November but
17
that the records were not available as to how much sick leave
18
or annual leave had been taken on any particular day.
19
A.
Well
20
Q.
Am I mistaken?
21
A.
22
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
23
I would have to check that with my Budget and Fiscal Officer.
24
He is the chap that got that for me..
25
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As I recall, he was in a duty status one day and a
sick leave status the next day and back to duty the next day.
f
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A.
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Can you check that for us?
Sure.
And give us the results of that?
10
..
A.
Yes.
4
50
Q.
10
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00
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91
Because this is much more detailed information than
I have been previouly aware is available in the files of the
Agency.
A.
All right. I will do that.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Do you want to make a note of that?
Q.
10
A.
Let me have a piece of paper.
11
Q.
You might also want Mr. Sturbitts' phone number which
12
13
14
is 351-5106.
THE WITNESS: That was 22 November, right?
BY MR. MANFREDI:
15
That is the day.
16
A.
1963.
17
Q
In response to whose inquiry was that investigation
18
made?
19
20
21
22
A. I don't know. I would have to look that up, too. I
don't recall exactly who asked for it. I don't know whether
I will just have to check that. I don't know who it was.
a
And the date? Do you have any idea when you made the
23
inquiry?
24
A.
No.
But Ican find out from the B and F guy, hopefully!
25
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او
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You said there was a previous inquiry?
A.
92
Yes. The previous inquiry came from Archie Roosevelt
who is now retired and was at that particular time the Chief of
European Division.
When was that inquiry received?
Q
A.
That was about a year ago, I guess.
BY MR. OLSEN:
.·
About the first time these photographs began to be
circulated?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
About the bums in Dallas?
11
A. Yes, and actually I think this
Archie's inquiry
12
WARD & PAUL
came from some magazine or newspaper man in Europe.
Archie was
13
Chief of Station, London, for a long time and he apparently
14
made a lot of acquaintances over there among the media.
15
Q This is something you are relating to Der Sterm
16
Magazine?
17
A.
That is right.
18
Q.
And did I understand you to say that in checking with
19
20
Hunt was on sick leave on November 22nd?
21
A.
20
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I understood it but I did get this through our Budget people who
have the contact with the office of Finance.
Q. And that he was on annual leave the day before?
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 95
the Office of Finance that it was positively ascertained that
Well, I will have to check that.
That is the way
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000
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He was on a duty status the day before, on sick
leave, and then on duty status the following day.
BY MR.
Q.
4
10
MANFREDI:
Was there any effort to determine what Mr. Hunt's
previous pattern with respect to sick days had been?
50
A.
6
(Nods in negative)
ན་
7
00
BY MR. OLSEN:
Q.
November 22, 1963, was a Friday.
When you say that
9
A.
10
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13
14
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records reveal that he was on a duty status the next day
It was a Friday. Then I was mistaken.
Does that mean he was on duty the following Monday
or on the next day, Saturday?
A.
No. On the following Monday. I didn't realize the
22nd was a Friday.
Q Will you check that thing for us and give us a brief
memo together with whatever supporting
copies of supporting
16
documents you can find?
17
A.
Okay.
18
19
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.
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
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MR. OLSEN: I think that is all.
MR. MANFREDI: Okay. Off the record.
(Off the record discussion)
NW 50955 DocId: 32203851 Page 96
Q As promptly as possible on this question.
I think that covers the subject matter.
MR. MANFREDI: I can give you another moment if you want.
Can you think of anything else?
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BY MR. MANFREDI:
Q.
I am sorry for the interruption but over the long haul
I think probably I saved you some time.
We are talking about newspaper editors when we were inter-
rupted
wwww www
or when I invited the interruption. I guess I ought
to be fair.
Is it not a fact that the Agency had some relationship with
some prominent newspaper officials in the Miami area?
00
0
A.
Yes.
10
. .
And what was the nature of that relationship?
A.
11
Traditionally the Chief
relati
12
Station maintained the
erald, particularly the
13
Latin American editor
ationships with staff
members of
hink
14
Miani News and stringers for
the other
papers and riodicals stationed in. Miami.
15
Q.
What was the purpose of those relationships?
16
A. I really couldn't say what the prupose of the relation-
17
ship was. I mean, the same reason that we establish a relation-
18
19
20
21
22
23
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25
ship with the press in this town. There were certain things that
might come to the attention of the press involving true names
and incidents that we felt should perhaps not be surfaced at any
particular time.
Q Do you have any knowledge of use of the press in Miami
for propaganda purposes?
A.
No. No.
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Would you know if that were the case?
A No. I really wouldn't know, but the relationship was
a two-way street. It wasn't simply that we assisted these
people as well as they were assigint us.
Q
What assistance would you render for members of
the press in Miami?
A
Well, in the case of the Latin American editor
we would put him in contact with the Chiefs of Stations of
areas he periodically visited and the Chiefs of Stations
would give him background briefings and this type of thing
on the developments
within a given country.
Was that done evenhandedly for various newspapers?
A Predominantly, I would say probably the Miami
Herald received probably a little more attention than the
principally because it was a large paper and
their Latin American-editor traveled a great deal throughout
11
12
13
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15
other pap
16
17
18
19
A
No.
20
21
Do newspapermen in Washington, D.C., receive
similar briefings?
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A
Yes.
23
the Hemisphere.
Was he also used as a source?
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Q We talked with Mr.Olsen for a short period of time
about fronts, revolutionary fronts. How large were these
organizations?
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A Well, the membership varied. As I said, we were
principally interested in the leadership of the organizations.
Once the organization was established and the leadership took
over!
then they would take care of enlisting the, I guess,
getting membership from the Cuban exile community to join.
What were their functions, the fronts?
A
Well, it was to bring some unity out of this chaotic
thing of the splinter groups and get as I said, it was a
political organization in exile.
wwwww wwww
Did they conduct any operations?
f
No, not that I know of.
10
11
A
12
Q
Just like a political party?
13
A
Like a political party.
14
Q
How many of these fronts were there?
15
A
There were several of them. I really don't remember
16
17
18
the names of them. The FRD was one. The Revolutionary
Democratic Front. I guess that was probably the biggest one.
And there were some others.
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Q
The RDF?
80
20
A
FRD.
21
Q
I see.
22
A
Front Revolutionary Democratic. It is the
23
23
Democratic Revolutionary Front.
24
Q
All right. Are these groups still in existence?
25
A
I would think not. I really don't know.
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Is there a CIA station in Puerto Rico?
Q
2
A
No.
There was but there isn't any more. There
10
+
hasn't been one there for years.
5
A
6
and
7
When was it disbanded?
I think the station was established around 1958
perhaps it was established before that. I think it
went out of existence in 1958.
Do you know why it went out of existence?
97
0
A
No, I don't. I don't have any idea.
10
Q
Do you know what function it was performing?
11
A
(Nods in negative.)
12
13
You mentioned earlier that Bernard Barker worked
in the Cuban community for the CIA?
14
A
He worked with these fronts, too.
15
16
community?
Was he performing any intelligence function in the
17
A
Intelligence functions. Well
18
Q
Was he collecting information?
19
A
Sure. If he got information that he thought was
20
21
22
22
23
worthwhile he would pass it on.
Q
Now, would he have been considered one of the three
or 500 persons employed or assigned to the Miami Station?
A
Yes. He was a contract employee.
24
And were intelligence requirements levied on
such
25
contract
employees?
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A
Normally, the requirements are pretty standard,
or they were at that time. But here again, you always have
ad hoc type things that pop up from time to time, and have to
be surfaced.
Some of these contract employees were, then, in
the business of collecting intelligence information in the
Cuban communities in Miami.
00
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
A
Right.
Now, I think we finished with the AMOTS but can
you think of any other functions performed by the AMOTS that
we have not discussed in the course of the afternoon?
A
No, not really. No.
Q
I think you previously described them for me the
35
eyes and ears into the Cuban community.
A
Right.
Q
And they actually had a physical facility in Miami
17
which was their headquarters, did they not?
18
A
19
Exactly.
Q
And there was a CIA Case Officer who managed to 5 Der
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
vise that facility.
21
A
Yes.
22
Now, what has happened to the AMOTS
23
A
The AMOTS were gradually phased down and will २०
24
out of existence
wwwwww www
the AMOTS are out of existence, aren't
25
they?
Isn't it the AMDUKES or
www.p Grave
these are the radio heop!
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And the AMDUKES are the AHOTS?
The AMDUKES are "ANOTS but they are radio people.
They are
4
NSA?
5
A
es tha
cted the intercept)
WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
30
0
Yes. The only reason we use two different names
is that in each of these things in those days we had to have
a project which had to be renewed every year to get the
funding.
A
So AMDUKE and AMOT
Synonymous.
are cryptonyms?
Do the initials stand for anything other than
10
11
12
A
Yes.
13
14
A
15
16
17
18
19
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21
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23
2 2 2 2
24
25
No. Just pick them out. If you want to encrypt
somebody you just call downstairs and they give you a
crypt. You don't have anything to do with it. The AM
at that particular time to be the Cuban diograph.
Now, turning to the Miami Station's involvement for
assistance to the Secret Service in connection with the
political conventions in 1968 and 1972, would you briefly
describe for me the nature of the assistance provided by
the Agency to the Secret Service?
A At the request of the Secret Service we conducted
name traces on individuals whom the Secret Service wanted
traced. These included the employees of all hotels in Miami
CEFDET
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Beach where any convention activities were to take place,
employees of catering services, limosine service, employees
in what do they call it, the Civic Center in Miami. It
is a big auditorium down there. I forget what they call it.
Foreign news people and media, television, radio people.
Q Were these people on whom name traces were requested.
all foreign nationals?
A All foreign nationals.
Was there any check made to determine whether
any of them were American citizens?
A We levied on the Secret Service as a requirement
that they have identified these people by nationality before
10
11
12
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13
we would run a, name trace. Inadvertently, at one time
14
they did submit a list, a rather long list of American citizens
15
which we promptly sent back to them and told them we could
16
not trace.
17
And this practice was followed both in 1968 and
18
1972?
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
A
That is right.
20
20
And where were these names traced?
21
A
They were traced back here and also in Miami.
The
22
23
24
Miami Station did their name check and we did our name check
here. In the case of Cubans, probably the Miami Station had
more information on the Cubans than we would have back here.
25
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Q But the names were traced through Agency files?
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A
Through Agency files.
101
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10
Was Secret Service receiving cooperation from FBI
on this as well?
الله
10
10
A
oh,
yes.
check
And in effect, they were getting an all-Agency name
A
Right.
7
Q
on people who might pose a security threat
8
A
Yes.
9
10
11
12
to a candidate?
A Well, they were just trying to determine who might
be a security threat.
Q That is right. Potential threat.
13
A
Yes.
14
15
16
For what political parties
In 1968 was this service provided for both political
conventions?
strike that.
17
A
Both political conventions.
18
Q
Were they both held in Miami that year?
19
A
No. I guess it was in 1972 they were both held
WARD & PAUL
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
20
20
21
there. I think it was just the Democratic in 1968.
Q These requests did come from the Secret Service
22
rather than
23
A
From the Secret Service and it was
the Director
24
of the Secret Service came to the DCI and asked him for
25
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support.
Do you still maintain the records with respect to
that tracing activity?
A
I have all the names that have been traced.
A
Yes.
And they are on little cards down in your files?
00
8
0
10
11
Q Why have those records been maintained? Is there
any reason those records have been maintained?
A
Well, because we were told to maintain them when
the Watergate thing broke..
I see.
12
A
And since then nobody will destroy anything.
13
14
15
16
17
OK. Are you aware of any picketing at various
places in the country that has been conducted by Cuban
groups?
A I was not aware of it until I was told of it.
I still don't know whether this was a spontaneous action on
18
19
the part of these people or whether they were instructed to
do it. I tried to run that down and I have been unable to."
20
272 2
21
22
23
24.
25
At what locations has it been reported that pickets
were located?
A
Airline offices in New York, Miami. I think another
place. I forget where it was.
Q Have you in fact been able to verify that these
persons were Cubans?
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103
A Well, it is a matter of record in the AMOT history
that this indeed did take place. Now, what I have been trying
to determine is whether the On-Site Case Officer authorized
this, which I fully doubt.
Who was the On-Site Case Officer?
At that time it was a fellow by the name Tony
A
7
Sforzå
00
8
Is he still alive?
9
A
10
Yes, he is down in Miami. But I just do not know
whether this was a unilateral action on the part of the
11
12
AMOTS against the countries that were then trading with
Cuba, notably Spain and Great Britain and France.
13
Q
Other than this incident which we
strike that.
14
15
What kind of an investigation have you conducted?
A I have talked to people, which is really all you
16
can do.
There is no other way you can do it.
17
18
19
Q
You have been unable to determine who, if anyone,
authorized this activity? Have you been able to identify
any of the person's who participated in the picketing?
20
A
No.
21
Q
22
A
23
With what frequency did this activity occur?
I don't have any idea. I only know of one instance.
This was in New York City?
24
A
New York City and Miami.
25
Do you know of any organized political activity that
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10
☑
10
10
T
00
9
10
11
12
13
good
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
20
21
23
N N N N
the AMOTS engaged in?
A To my knowledge, they didn't engage in any.
Any political activity.
Do you know of any other activities that they have
conducted within this country, they or any of their members
have conducted within this country that we have not already
discussed this afternoon?
A
No.
Any political activities? Any operations?
A No. Not really. Of course, we have used certain
select individuals to what we call hand-hold defectors, Cuban
defectors. In other words, live with them until they are
resettled and this type of thing. And this is another activity
they engaged in. But other than that, I can't think of any-
thing else.
Q Do you know of any criminal activities that have
been attribited to
A I have heard of some allegations which have never
been proven.
A
What are the allegations?
The allegations concern break-ins and surveillances
and this type of thing.
Q
24
quency?
25
Have those allegations been made with any fre-
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
A Well, I forget who it was. It was during the
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10
Watergate trial.
Some of these allegations that came out
and I think they were carried in the Anderson column but we
made file checks and this type of thing. One particular
activity was supposed to have been carried out in Rockefeller
Center in New York and it turns out it was taken out of
context. It was a training mission and training exercise.
These guys were being trained in surveillance in New York
and they were simply asked to go into a branch of the Manhattan
Chase Manhattan and to come back out and then they were
supposed to diagram the layout of the bank. And this to some
of them meant casing the bank when in fact it was just a
memory exercise.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
20
exercises conducted?
C
With what frequency were those kinds of training
A
Well, whenever there was an
whenever it was felt
that these people, selected individuals, were to be trained
in trade craft.
Ω And did their trade craft training include such
things as surveillance?
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
A
Sure.
21
Q
And break-ins?
22
A
No.
Not break-ins. Nor surreptitious entry. As I
23
said, in the case of this particular thing, it was misinter-
24
25
preted as casing the bank. These exercises were given they
could have walked into your office, your outer office and
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said
02
10
St
5
50
the instructor could have said two hours later tell
me what is in that outer office? What is the layout of it?
This is just for observation.
You stated earlier none of those allegations have
been proven.
satisfaction?
7
A
0
10
Have any of them been proved to your
No. Ithink we disproved them to my satisfaction.
I take it you do not believe they took place other
than the training exercise?
A Oh, no. No. I don't believe they did.
Do you know of any instances where members of that
group have broken in, made any other type of illegal entry
in this country?
11
12
13
14
A
No.
15
16
17
Q Have you ever been present at any discussions of
the legality or illegality of maintaining stations like the
Miami Station within this country?
18
A
Legality? No.
19
How about the propriety?
20
20
A
Well, to my knowledge, that really never
came up.
WARD & PAUL
21
22
223
24
25
No one to my knowledge, has ever questioned the legality or
the propriety of having the Station.
Q There have been some allegations in the press and
elsewhere about possible misuse of Cuban exiles, members of
that community, by the CIA. Are you aware of those?
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No.
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الله
4
5
We received some correspondence and I have seen some
articles that suggest that the Cuban community is sort of
a resource that is occasionally tapped by the CIA for various
operations in this country.
6
A
སྐ་
8
You mean this country?
Yes. Picketing was one example. There were also some
other examples of unusual activities. Do you have any knowledge
of use by the CIA of Cuban nationals or exiles for any type
of operation within this country?
10
11
12
WARD & PAUL
A
No.
Q
13
14
Do you know whether or not the Agency has provided
any financial support for Cuban businessmen in this country?
A No. Not to my knowledge.
15
Q
Other than the maintenance of cover?
16
A
No.
17
Ω
Establishment of businesses?
18
A
No.
19
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
Q
No?
20
20
A
No.
21
Ω
In the course of our discussions today we discussed
22
the AMOTS
AMDUKES, various political front groups,
24
25
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23
revolutionary front groups. Are there any other emigre,
Cuban emigre groups in the Miami area which have been supporte
by the Agency, either financially or otherwise?
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A
Not to my knowledge.
22
Q
10
Are you familiar with the appendix that was attached
to Mr. Colby?s statement?
4
10
A
Yes.
Q
Did you have some role in drafting that?
A
You mean the Miami Station thing?
7
A
Yes.
Appendix J, entitled, "The Miami Station".
You wrote it?
9
i
A
Yes.
10
It has a familiar ring about it. There are reference
11
12
to indigenous organizations, emigre organizations. Are
there any others other than the ones we have been discuss
13
A Not to my knowledge.
There are
14
15
want to call it an organization, we did, you know,, subsidize
the hell out o Juanita Ca
16
Q.
Yes, I am familiar with that.
17
A
You are familiar with all that and that is by the
18
19
*...
410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003
board now, too.
She was doing
Propaganda
propaganda broadcasts.
20
80
A
21
Q
22
A
☐ Yes.
23
Q
24
25
Do you have any personal knowledge of what kind of
intelligence-gathering activities are conducted in the Miami
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area now by the Miami Station
A
There are no domestic activities at all in the
10
3
4
5
6
7
.8
Miami Station All Cuban activities have been moved back
here to Headquarters. The Miami Station now is completely
and solely involved in the intelligence in the Caribbean.
Q
Does the Miami Station I beg your pardon
does the Headquarters component that now handles the Cuban
situation in Miami run any agents in the Cuban community?
A No. Well, let me explain that to you. We do have
a career agent who has been with us for a good many years
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in Miami and we do use him to contact relatives of Cubans
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who are still in Cuba. I mean, relatives who are in the U.S.
who have relatives in Cuba.
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Now, this is done principally with the idea of a
recruitment target, determine weaknesses or strengths,
this
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type of thing. He does contact these people all over the
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United States. If we come across an individual that looks like
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he might be recruitable, or perhaps we could even double him,
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we will, after we make our preliminary assessment, and we
find out where relatives and these types of people are, we
will ask this career agent or instruct him to go contact
these people, be it New York, New Jersey, Chicago, or what-
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Q So you use Cuban, now citizens or aliens
country, as access agents.
in this
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Right.
Just like foreign associates would do.
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Exactly.
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2 Are there any more people like Bernard Barker who
are contract employees of the Agency who still work in the
Miami-Cuban community?
A
No. None.
Q That entire apparatus has been
Has been dismantled.
dismantled.
What is the current size of the
Miami S
ition:
I really don't know but it runs be en 11 and 14,
as far as I know. I think it will be 11 by the next fiscal
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MR. MANFREDI: off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR.MANFREDI: Let's go back on the record.
BY MR. MANFREDI:
Q
There are presently no Cuban Ops being conducted out
of Miami?
A No. All Cuban Ops. are being conducted out of
Headquarters.
Q And even from the Headquarters location there are
no paramilitary operations?
A
No.
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No covert
being conducted still?
well, there is some propaganda activity
A On a very small scale, and the covert action facility
that we had, the radio, taped program, is being terminated
by 30 June. So for all practical purposes, it is terminated
now.
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The Miami Station is under official cover
Yes.
And it has been decreased to how many people?
:
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Between 12 and 14.
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And it has absolutely no responsibilities with
respect to Cuba?
A
Absolutely none.
Q And its responsibilities are entirely directed to
other Latin American countries?
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To Caribbean countries.
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Caribbean countries. And I trust that there are
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other Agency stations in the Caribbean?
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Yes.
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Q
Well, I have no further questions, Mr. Sturbitts.
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If you have anything you would like to add you are welcome
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to do so.
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No, I have nothing.
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Ω
I want to thank you on behalf of myself and the
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Commission for your cooperation.
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Sure.
I am sorry we had to take so much of your time.
That is all right.
Thank you again.
(Whereupon, at 3:35 o'clock p.m., the taking of the
deposition was concluded.)
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