180-10131-10329
2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
JFK Assassination System
Date:
10/19/20
Identification Form
Agency Information
AGENCY: HSCA
RECORD NUMBER:
180-10131-10329
RECORD SERIES : SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY
AGENCY FILE NUMBER:
014727
Document Information
ORIGINATOR:
HSCA
FROM:
SHAW, ROBERT T.
TO:
TITLE:
DATE:
PAGES:
05/16/1978
78
SUBJECTS:
DOCUMENT TYPE:
CLASSIFICATION:
RESTRICTIONS:
CURRENT STATUS:
DATE OF LAST REVIEW:
OPENING CRITERIA:
CIA, FILES
CIA, METHODOLOGY
SHAW, ROBERT T., TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIPT TO
MEXICO
DURAN, SYLVIA
TRANSCRIPT
Secret
1B
Redact
02/01/2003
COMMENTS:
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EXECUTIVE SESSION
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TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978:
1-1
U.S. House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Assassina-
tion of John F. Kennedy of
the Select Committee on
Assassinations,
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:40 p.m.
in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, S.W.
Present:
Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway.
Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, would you please swear
in the witness?
The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Shaw. I do.
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TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. SHAW
Mr. Goldsmith.
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Would you state your name and address
for the record?
Mr.
Shaw. Robert T. Shaw, 3715 Acosta Road, Fairfax,
Virginia, 22031.
Shaw?
Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present occupation, Mr.
Mr. Shaw. I am undercover with the Department of State,
but my actual occupation is Inspector, Office of the Inspector
General, Central Intelligence Agency.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw, I handed you earlier a copy
of a letter from the Acting Director of the Central Intelli-
It
gence, Mr. Carlucci, to the Chairman of this Committee.
corresponds to JFK Exhibit No. 94 in the Committee's hearing
record.
Have you had a chance to read that letter?
Mr. Shaw.. I read it just now.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Do you understand it?
Mr. Shaw. I understand it.
Mr. Goldsmith. I also would like to hand you the
Committee's rules and resolutions and ask you at this time
to read Rule No. 4 to yourself.
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(Pause)
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Mr. Shaw. I read it over.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you understand that?
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Mr. Shaw. I understand it.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that you have a right
to counsel?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you waive that right to counsel?
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Mr. Shaw. I do not need counsel.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you understand that, under the
Committee rules, that you have a right to receive a copy of
the statement you are going to give us at this deposition?
Mr. Shaw. I should hope so, to check it for accuracy.
Mr. Goldsmith. However, by virtue of the arrangement
that the Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence
Agency, we have been asked to request of Agency employees that
they waive their right to receive a copy of the deposition
for their own retention. By that, I mean we would certainly
be willing to grant you access to the deposition, to correct
it in any way necessary, but the Agency has requested that
we ask you to waive your right to receive an actualy copy of
the deposition.
Mr. Shaw. I have no problem with that.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Thank you...
For the record, I would like to say that the Committee's
mandate is to investigate the assassination of the President.
The scope of the mandate includes who killed the President,
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was there a conspiracy?
We are also required to evaluate
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the FBI and the CIA and to evaluate the work of the Warren
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Commission.
Do you understand that as well?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldmsith. Prior to coming here today, have you
discussed what your tesimony is going to be with any CIA
employee?
Mr. Shaw. I have not, except to tell them that I was
going to tell the truth when I got over here.
Mr. Goldsmith.
your testimony?
In terms of discussing the substance of
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Have you discussed with any CIA employee;
Mr. Shaw. None whatever.
Mr. Goldsmith.
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past or present, who either has been interviewed by the
Committee or has given a statement under oath to the Committee;
what questions were asked of him or her?
Mr. Shaw. I have not.
Mr. Goldsmith.
without subpoena?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Are you here today voluntarily and
Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, how long have you been working
under State Department cover?
Mr. Shaw. Since approximately the date I came aboard,
because I was promptly sent to the Department of State for
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That would be March, 1948.
Mr. Goldsmith. Would your State Department file, if
reviewed by a member of this Committee, indicate that you were
actually a CIA employee?
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.
Mr. Goldsmith. You do not understand how the cover
arrangement would work between the Agency and the Department
of State?
Mr. Shaw.. I have never had anything to do with the
setting up of such cover. It would well be that there might
be some sort of an indicator or flag, or something in that
file that would indicate to a person who knew the ropes that
I was not bona fide.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Would there be a personnel file on you
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at the Central Intelligence Agency?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of procédure, in terms of
how you get paid, do you get paid by the Department of State?
Mr. Shaw. No. I am under, at the present time, nominal
state cover.. I actually, as far as the Department of State
At
is concerned, resigned over there in 1973, I believe.
the present time, I am paid by the Agency.
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Mr.GGoldsmith.
When you were working under cover, were
you being paid by State at that time?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, I was.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Are you familiar at all with the
literature that has been generated by the assassination of
the President and the work done by the Warren Commission?
Mr. Shaw. Very little. I just noticed that green book
there a minute ago. I have never read that thing.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Committee Report.
Book 5, for the record, of the Senate
Mr. Shaw. I have seen copies of the Warren Commission
Report in various places around the government, but I never
read it.
Mr. Goldsmith. When you were working with the State
Department in other than a nominal capacity, what was your
title?
Mr. Shaw. My last title was Special Assistant to the
Ambassador and First Secretary of Embassy, Honduras.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Did you ever work as a consular officer?
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Mr. Shaw.. Yes, I did.
Mr. Goldsmith.
When you worked as a consular officer,
were you required to fulfill both responsibilities as a con-
sular officer and as a CIA employee?
Mr. Shaw. To a certain extent.
For example, I have never issued a visa. I have issued
a passport for another consular officer who accepted the
application and I would be on the road in northwestern Mexico
and issued the passport to the American citizen concerned.
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I have done a modicum of what we call protection and
welfare work. This would usually involve being again on the
road, stopping in, for example, in a prison to see if there
was an American citizen there, to find out what the story
was, why he was there, how he was being treated and that sort
of thing, and relay that information to the consular when I
got back.
Actually, I have not done much consular work. I used
the cover on several occasions, but was never emersed into
the role to the point where it interfered with my Agency
activity.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Normally when somebody is acting under
State Department cover, is the person required to hold down
two jobs at the same time?
Mr. Shaw.. It depends on the location of the person.
As I understand it, people we have, for example, in the Iron
Curtain countries, or the countries of Eastern Europe, do
hold down virtually 100 percent full-time State Department,
Foreign Service jobs. Some of the people that I have run into
in my work as an Inspector for the Office of the Inspector
General, notably in the Mid-Eastern countries, have spent much
more time on their cover work than I did.
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I think that it has to do basically with the permissive-
ness, or lack thereof, of the operational environment that.
you are in. In Mexico, it was not necessary to spend much
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Mr. Goldsmith. How long have you been working for the
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Office of the Inspector General?
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Mr. Shaw. Since August of 1976.
Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any responsibility in the
writing of the 1977 Inspector General Report pertaining to
the CIA's handling of the investigation of the Kennedy
assassination?
Mr. Shaw.. None whatever.
Mr. Goldsmith. Has anyone ever interviewed you before
pertaining to the Mexico City situation as far as it pertained
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to Oswald?
Mr. Shaw.. Yes.
It was about that time of '76, some-
body interviewed me in the CIA Headquarters building, and I
think it was a Senate Committee, but I am not sure.
They had
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Mr. Goldsmith. Did you give your testimony under oath
at that time?
Mr. Shaw. No, not that I remember.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Did any CIA person ever interview you
concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in Mexico City and
the operations of the Mexico City station?
Mr. Shaw. I would have to qualify that. We discussed
the subject, of course, in Mexico City at the time of the
assassination, or immediately after the assassination.
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But I cannot recall that I was ever called in anywhere
and asked for my account of what transpired after the assassina-
3 tion.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Headquarters never asked you to come in
and give a description, for example, of Oswald's activities,
to your knowledge, in Mexico City in 1963?
Mr. Shaw. No. I would not have known anything about
Oswald's activities anyway.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Are you familiar with the photograph
that was taken in 1963 that was reportedly linked to Oswald
and which subsequently turned out not to be a picture of
Oswald?
Mr. Shaw.. I am familiar with a photograph that was
identified by people at the station in Mexico City as possibly
being an American-appearing person. I do not know that it
was every considered to be Oswald.
I think, if I remember correctly, what they were doing
Mr. Goldsmith.
We will get into that. My question is,
did anybody from Headquarters ever ask you about that parti-
cular photograph or the circumstances surrounding it?
Mr. Shaw.
Negative.
Mr. Goldsmith. Did anybody from Headquarters ever ask
you to give a statement or report as to the manner in which
the surveillance operation in Mexico City were underatken in
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1963?
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Where were you serving in 1963?
Mr. Shaw.. From about the middle of April, I was serving
in Mexico City in our station.
City?
Mr. Goldsmith.
How long did you stay in Mexico City?
Mr. Shaw. I stayed there until September of 1966.
Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Station Chief in Mexico
Mr. Shaw. Winston Scott.
Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give us your assessment of
his competence?
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Mr. Shaw.
Competence.
It is difficult, because I was
not looking from on high. He was a brilliant man. He was
reputed to have a doctorate in mathematics.. He had an uncanny
ability to remember numbers and he carried in his head the
file numbers of what we called P-files in Mexico City.
stood, I think) for personality.
digits or so, maybe five digits.
A P number usually was four
And he carried all these numbers in his head and he could
mark something for such and such a file in black ink
he
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always wrote in black ink
putting the number down.
He had
5!
a very good memory for numbers.
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Winn and I were friendly.
We were not close. We were
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not on the same level at all.
I considered him to be, from my standpoint, a competent,
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effective, Chief of Station.
Mr. Goldsmith. What type of file-keeping system did
he have in effect, without asking you to describe it in detail?
By that, my question is directed towards his thoroughness and
comprehensiveness.
most
Mr. Shaw. I would say that he probably had one of the
complete file systems in being in the
let me see
Agency. I think that he, my personal opinion is that he went
overboard, and we had so much stuff back in our files, it
was hard to believe the amount of paper we had in there.
His tendency was not to rely on cross-indexing.
If
you have a document, this piece of paper means something to
you and you want to keep it and it has 15 names on it, he
was quite capable of setting up 15 files for the same piece
of paper.
And we had a tremendous file room.
I often wondered if we needed that much paper. It was
very thorough. I am not a technician as far as managing
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room were kept very, very busy.
Mr. Goldsmith. Who were Mr. Scott's chief deputies?
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Upon which individuals did he
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Mr. Shaw.. He had one Deputy who was Allen White.
far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied very
heavily on Annie Goodpasture not in any way in a command
As
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function, but as a Girl Friday.
He also seemed to think rather highly of a former one-time
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Mr. Goldsmith.
What about David Phillips?
Mr. Shaw. Yes. Dave Phillips ran the, what we called the
CA side of the shop, covert action, mostly propaganda.
I came
to Mexico City with the understanding that I was going to head
up the Cuban shop. Very soon after I arrived there, Dave
Phillips was tapped it was while we were still in the old
Embassy building.
He was tapped and named the new Cuban Office Chief.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Did that happen in October '63?
Mr. Shaw.. I don't know. I do not remember. But it was
not too long after I was there, and I was asked, I think by
Dave; I don't remember if I had any objections to continuing
to serve in Cuba.
I liked Dave, I respected him. I did not feel that I
was being hurt, hurt careerwise, to step back and I was very
19 interested in Cuban operations, so I did willingly, let us say,
relinquish command, if you want to, of Cuban Ops and I served
Dave as one more officer.
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Later on, after Dave left, a year or two later, I once
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You were in charge of Cuban Operations at
Then Phillips took it over at some point and
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then, after Phillips left, you went back to that position?
Mr Shaw. That is right.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Our review of Agency records indicates
that Phillips would have assumed that position on October of
163.
Would that be consistent with your recollection?
Mr.
Shaw. My recollection would have been, had you not
told me this based on your review of the files, that it took
place earlier than October, but I do not know.
know.
I really do not
Mr. Goldsmith. My questions are going to be confined,
unless I indicate to the contrary, to the period up to the
end of 1963. So, from the time of your arrival in Mexico City
until the end of 1963, prior to the time that Mr. Phillips
assumed the position of Cuban operations
Mr. Shaw. Chief.
Mr. Goldsmith. Chief would be the word, and you had those
responsibilities, what did those responsibilities include?
Mr.
Shaw.
Since it was not ratified to me upon my
arrival that I was, indeed, Chief of Cuban Ops, I simply con-
sidered myself to be one more case officer working against
the Cuban target. Our basic interest was in effecting pene-
trations of the Cuban government.
What we wanted most of all were effective penetrations
of the Cuban Embassy, the Cuban Intelligence Service, and some
possible line-in to their communications set-up.
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Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963, did you manage to place any
penetration agents in the Cuban Embassy or consulate?
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Mr. Shaw. Did I?
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Mr. Goldsmith. Did the station?
Mr. Shaw. There were two. I did not place either one,
and I think they both pre-dated 1963.
Mr. Goldsmith. Were those two penetration agents within
the Cuban consulate or Embassy at the time of the President's
assassination?
Mr. Shaw. Yes. One was in the consulate
was the cryptonym.
L-I-T-A-M-I-L-7.
LITAMIL-7
And the other one was
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in the Embassy
LAI-T-A-M-I-L-9.
Mr. Goldsmith.
What information did these people give
you after the assassination pertaining to the possible involve-
15 ment of the Cuban government?
Mr. Shaw. I did not handle LITAMIL-7, and LITAMIL-9.
I
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Mr. Goldsmith.
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Who handled LITAMIL-7?
sure.
Mr. Shaw. I think that it was Ray Swider, but I am not
I did not meet LITAMIL-7 until Ray Swider left the
country.
Mr. Goldsmith.
You nevertheless have had access to the
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information that this individual gave to Swider?
Mr. Shaw.. I would normally have seen copies of contact
reports which were reports that we wrote. Many of us who were
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case officers wrote
after station meetings, and it would
have been normal for me, for example, to see any information
of consequence that LITAMIL-7 produced, just like it would
have been normal for any other case officer in the Cuban sec-
tion to see my contact reports on meetings with LITAMIL-9.
Mr. Goldsmith. In light of that, do you know what infor-
mation LITAMIL-7 gave concerning the Cuban government's reac-
tion to the death of the President?
Mr. Shaw. I do not recall, and I do not recall the
specifics of anything. You may have something in your files
with my name on it; I do not know what LITAMIL-9 produced.
I do have the recollection of the sense of feeling on the
part of those people that there was no exultation or jubila-
tion or happiness whatsoever inside the Cuban Embassy at the
assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Did the penetration agents ever indicate
that Oswald had been to the Embassy and had stated that he was
going to attempt to kill the President?
Mr. Shaw. No, not that I know of.
Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of those agents ever indicate that
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Oswald had had contact with the Agency
with the Embassy,
rather?
Mr. Shaw. I whould imagine that LITAMIL-7 probably did
I do not recall it. But since she was in the consulate, and
-since it was my understanding that Oswald's contact with the
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consular field rather than with the Embassy field, I should
2 imagine, given the discussions that undoubtedly took place in
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the Cuban Embassy after this assassination, that she probably
spoke about it. I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith.
What was the name of LITAMIL-7?
Mr. Shaw. I'd rather not give names.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, in light of your response, I am
certainly aware of the sensitivity of this issue and of your
concern for sources and methods, and I would also make two
points.
One is that under the letter, you are free of your
12 secrecy obligation.
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At the same time, I am not about to rely
upon that letter to compel an answer out of you, because you
are here voluntarily today to help us. And, as I said, because
I understand your concern for a sensitive source in this case,
16 I am not going to ask you to state for the record the name of
either one of these individuals.
Mr. Shaw. May I say something at this point?
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Mr. Goldsmith.
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Yes.
Mr. Shawn, It is my understanding that both of these
people are, if they are still alive, are living in Mexico and
I do not want to be in a position of revealing a name which
could harm either of those people. I notice here that it says
Mr.
Goldsmith.
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Mr.
Carlucci?
You are referring now to the letter from
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Mr. Shaw. Yes.
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"To provide the affected person the opportunity to
receive guidance from me or my designees on the applicability
of this authorization, particularly to questions which are
asked."
I would like to get Frank Carlucci to tell me that I would
reveal two names of agents, if it is necessary -- or you can
find out from the file, probably, who they are.
Mr. Shaw, I understand your position.
Mr. Goldsmith.
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I am in no way
forcing you to reveal a name. Once you had demonstrated a
reluctance to, then, as far as I was concerned, then the
matter was terminated.
Mr. Shaw. No problem?
Mr. Goldsmith.
I will say that we will pursue this by
contacting the appropriate people at the Agency.
Mr. Shaw. I think if you requested the Agency for those
two names, it would probably produce them.
be the guy to say it.
Mr.
I wouldn't want to
Goldsmith. I understand your position perfectly.
I hope you understand mine.
Mr. Shaw. I do.
Mr. Goldsmith. I would not want you to go back to the
24 Agency and say that the staff of this Committee attempted to
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Mr. Shaw. I will not say any such thing.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Fine.
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For the record, would you spell the cryptonyms of these
penetration agents?
Mr. Shaw. One of them was LITAMIL-7
L-I-T-A-M-I-L
7.
The other was LITAMIL-9.
Mr. Goldsmith. Are these two agents still active?
Mr. Shaw. Neither one is active.
I am quite sure that
neither one is active.
Mr. Goldsmith.
For purposes of clarification, LITAMIL-7,
In
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was that agent working out of the consulate?
Mr. Shaw. That agent was an employee of the consular
section of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City.
officer of the Embassy.
LITAMIL-9 was an
Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, on the question of the identity
of these two agents, when you go back to the Agency, could you
raise this question with the appropriate individual, appropri-
ate superior authority, and we will do the same so that some
time this week we can get together on that?
Mr. Shaw. I do not see any reason for us to get together.
You can get it from them, I am sure. It is just that I have
22 a rather strong feeling about protecting anybody who has
23 cooperated with us.
It is not that I consider you do not have a right to that
25 information, if you feel that you need it. It is just that I
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cannot bring myself to reveal the true name of an agent unless
I am required to do so.
Mr. Goldsmith.
I understand that concern. I certainly
respect it.
(Pause)
I have been informed by my researcher, Dan Hardway, that
the Agency is in the process of looking into this issue.
Mr. Shaw.
Okay..
Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to get into
the area of the telephone taps that were in operation in 1963
against the Cuban Embassy and consulate. My first question is,
what responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the
telephone tap operation?
Mr. Shaw.
usually.
No responsibility. I saw the product,
Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who was in charge
of that tap?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know whose responsibility it was.
I rather suspect that it may have been Ann Goodpasture's, but
I do not know for sure. I do not remember.
There were two telephone operations, two tap operations.
One of them was unilateral and one of them was joint with the
23
Mexican government.
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By
Mr. Goldsmith. Which one was the unilateral one?
that, I mean which phones were covered by the unilateral one?
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Mr.
Shaw. There was a mix, and I cannot recall which
were which. It may well have been that we were tapping some
Cuban Embassy phones unilaterally, and some of them were being
tapped jointly. I know that there was coverage on the joint tap
operation, which I believe was called LIENVOY.
Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct.
I am not sure.
You indicated that you think Ann Goodpasture may have been
responsible for the telephone tap operation against the Cuban
operation. What basis do you have for that?
Mr. Shaw.
Responsible in the sense of picking up the take.
I am not sure of that, because I know she did some of that kind
of work. I am not sure who did it. We used to get copies of
the transcripts and I remember
I am sure I saw some of the
Cuban stuff on joint taps. And then, of course, taps that
15 were run by the Mexican government.
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Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review the transcripts that came
in as a matter of regular routine?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith. Did you read all of them?
Mr. Shaw. No.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
5!
Which ones would you read?
Mr. Shaw. I would have been interested primarily in the
23
Cuban ones, and what they called the resuma
it was sort of
a Spanish word for resume the resuma was a distillation,
if you will, of the digest of the joint tap that was prepared,
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I believe, for the Mexican President.
You look at the resuma,
which may be two pages, and you may have the gist of what might
be a whole bunch of pages of tap.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Normally, you read transcripts of conver-
sations that took place on telephones of the Cuban Embassy,
is that correct?
I do not
Mr. Shaw. Normally, I read some of that stuff.
remember whether I saw it all or not, because quite a bit of
it was processed by other people.
people on the outside, I suppose.
I do not know who they were,
And I read summaries of
what appeared on these things, but I remember also, at times,
seeing the verbatim Man Outside says so and so; Person
Inside, Woman Inside, says such and such.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Sometimes you would get summary trans-
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criptions of the summary conversations or English and sometimes
you would get verbatim translations, is that correct?
Mr. Shaw.. Yes. I would see them, I would not get them.
They would go past me. I would see them.
Mr.
Goldsmith.
Was it more likely that what you would see
in verbatim form, conversations that took place, for example,
21 in Russian and had to be translated before you received them?
Mr. Shaw. I certainly would not see any conversations
13
23
in Russian, because the Cuban Embassy did not have any Russian
conversations. I cannot really answer that question.
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not really sure I fully understand it.
I am
I do remember seeing
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a variety of take, what we call take, from the various tap
operations.
This take sometimes was processed into English.
The stuff that appeared in the resuma was in Spanish.
Sometimes
the conversations were typed out in Spanish and translated into
English. I prefer them in Spanish, because I am at home in
Spanish.
Mr. Goldsmith. How many people reviewed the take from
the surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and consular
telephones?
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. I assume there were quite a
few. The stuff was widely passed around.
Mr. Goldsmith.
would review them?
As a matter of routine, how many people
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.
N
_
Mr. Goldsmith.
15
16
How many people were in Cuban operations?
Mr. Shaw. I would guess five or six.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Who were they?
Mr. Shaw. Dave Phillips.
Mr. Goldsmith. We are talking now about the period 1963?
Mr. Shaw. That is right. Dave Phillips, myself, Ray
20
Swider.
23
I am trying to think of the girl's name.
various secretaries in there. I do not know who was the secre-
tary in '63. Peggy Magert. I'm not sure she was there at
We had
24
that time..
25
Of course, Allen White would see it.
Winn Scott would see
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Mr. Goldsmith.
They would not review every transcript
or summary that came in, would then? Allen White or Winn Scott?
Mr. Shaw. I imagine Winn Scott; I do not know about
Allen White. Winn was pretty much, he tended to review almost
all of the paper that came in and out of the station.
Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that there was no routine.
procedure established for who was to review the take from the
Cuban telephone surveillance operations?
Mr. Shaw. I am saying that, when I got there, the case
officers in Cuban Ops saw this stuff that was routed around
through the station and that persisted during the time that
I was there.
Mr. Goldsmith.
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I am not sure that the answer
Mr. Shaw. How that was routed, I am not sure.
Mr. Goldsmith.
tion that came in?
Did you customarily see every conversa-
Mr. Shaw. I doubt it. I doubt it.
પડે
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Who would have seen the conversation and
decided that it was not important enough to merit your atten-
21
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13
Mr. Shaw. I do not know."
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Who brought in the take from these opera-
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25
Mr. Shaw. I do not know that either, but it was my
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understanding that non-official cover people on the outside
picked up the tapes
is my understanding
don't consider this gospel, but this
picked up tapes from the various listen-
ing posts, some of which had been processed by people in the
listening post; some of which had not. But they, in turn,
either processed those tapes or took them to people to continue
the processing in case they had a foreign language in them, or
something, and then turn them over to the station.
Somebody went out from the station, probably with a little
attache case or something, and picked up takes again.
It is
my understanding that the person primarily involved in that
was Ann Goodpasture, but I do not know for sure.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Who was the first person that the trans-
cripts would go to upon their arrival at the Embassy?
Mr. Shaw. I rather suspect Winn Scott, because I remember
great numbers of those white pages that came across our desk.
had P numbers written on them in black ink by Winn Scott.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how many lines were being
tapped at the Cuban consulate?and Embassy?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith. You reviewed the transcripts and summaries
of these conversations for two years and you have no idea how
many lines were tapped?
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Mr. Shaw. No.
This was fifteen years ago.
I can give
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you a guess.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Sure. A best guess would be helpful.
Mr. Shaw. I would guess three or four lines. The primary
interest was in the Soviets. You had far more converage.
That is a guess.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Understood.
Mr. Shaw. I would guess, off-hand, two lines in the
Embassy, one line in the consulate.
Mr.
Goldsmith.
was tapped?
Do you know if the Cuban consul's telephone
Mr. Shaw. If the consulate line was tapped
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw.
It would have been his?
Probably it would have been his, but they may
have had a direct line in there. I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith.
How would a telephone tap actually work?
I am talking now about the actual mechanics of the tap.
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I never had anything do do
with them. I know they used to take some of their taps at
what they call the junction boxes. These would be the boxes
out in the street where lines came in to be fed into this
20 central I would rather suspect that the joint operations
21
were mostly done at the central, since the Mexican government
simply could have issued orders, you will tap such and such a
23 phone.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
My question is oriented towards the
following. Once a tap has been placed on a line, would that.
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mean that all calls, ingoing or outgoing, on that phone would
2
be picked up, so long as the tap is in effect?
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Mr. Shaw. So long as it is in effect, yes. Whether those
would appear in the transcripts is another matter.
If it
was like a wrong number, or somebody saying pick up three rolls
and bring them home for lunch, probably it would not appear on
the transcript.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr.
Who would make that decision?
Shaw. Whoever transcribed the tapes.
Mr. Goldsmith.
How much time would pass from the moment
that a call came in until the transcription passed across your
desk?
Mr. Shaw. I cannot answer your question with any preci-
sion. There was a system in the Embassy whereby if you had
a fast-breaking situation, or something like that, you could
16 I sure would like to get the transcripts of such and such a
line fast, and that information would be processed and funneled
back in to the Embassy or into the station on a priority
18
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basis.
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guess
I would guess, offhand, that it ran again, this is a
Mr.
five, six, seven days.
Goldsmith. What about the high priority cases?
Sometimes you can get that pretty fast.
23
Mr. Shaw.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
25
Within a day?
Mr. Shaw. Yes. We could have somebody looking for a
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certain call, and I do not recall ever doing that. But it
1-27
was my understanding that if you expected some situation, that
3 you could levy a requirement for example, let me give you
6
a for instance here.
Let us suppose that we, the station, someone in the sta-
tion was going to make a recruitment pitch to a Soviet officer!
It would have been possible for the station to have organized
things so that there was a live body and not just a machine
hanging over phone calls coming in to the Soviet Embassy in
10 case the guy called up and said, let me tell you the discus-
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sion I just had, or something like that.
This would be a little far-fetched, because a Soviet
.m
13 would not be likely to handle it by phone. But in a case
where you are looking for something fast-breaking to protect
yourself, being on top of the situation it would not apply
much to Mexico, but if you had a revolutionary situation
breaking out someplace, surely there is a possibility of
getting information very quickly off any given line.
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Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts be reviewed by
you in chronological order?
Mr. Shaw. I got them in batches and I would review them
just in the order in which they came. I might have shuffled
them in chronological order, yes. Quite often they came in
four or five or six pages stapled together.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Would they tend to come in chrolological
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order so you read a transcript from the 15th before the 16th?
Mr. Shaw.
Generally yes, right.
Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcripts after
they were reviewed by you?
Mr. Shaw. They were usually routed. They had a routing
sheet on it, and they would go on to somewhere else. Where
they went, I do not know. Sometimes we would mark them for
files. Of course, if there were a transcript in there that
had specific information on somebody that we were interested
in, we would mark a copy for the files and it would go into
that person's either their P-file, which was their personnel
file, or into any operational self-file that would we make,
building up background information on a person, the little
things like whether an officer's wife was unhappy with the maid
or with living conditions or the cost or what have you of the
drugstore. These little bits and pieces were built up and
those came from transcripts.
Mr. Goldsmith. Would these transcripts eventually get
sent to headquarters?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I will say that it was unlikely!
that Winn Scott ever threw anything away. It was somewhere,
probably, in the file room.
Mr. Goldsmith. What about the tapes? What would happen
with the tapes after a conversation had been transcribed?
Again, you are getting into an area where I
Mr. Shaw.
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never had any personal experience. It is my understanding
that tapes were erased and reused, and they were used over
and over again. Otherwise, we would have ended up with a room
full of tapes and there really was no reason to keep them.
Now, I would also assume that if there was something
important on a tape that they might have held it. I do not
know.
I do not recall ever saying, hold that tape for me.
The transcript usually sufficed as the record.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if, at the time of the assassina-
tion, that the station had a tape recording of Lee Harvey
Oswald's voice?
Mr. Shaw. No, I do not know if they did. I think they
did not. It was my understanding that what they had was a
transcript of some guy calling, again, it is my understanding.
I believe he called the Soviet Embassy from the Cuban Embassy,
or the Cubans called the Soviet Embassy, I am not sure. But
as far as having the tape with Oswald's voice on it, I seriously
doubt it.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now what was
marked here as CIA No. 197 and, for purposes of the record
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and for your information, the Agency has provided us with its
documents. Each page has been assigned a number. The reason
it has been assigned a number is so that the Agency can make
sure that everything given to the Committee is returned.
For
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reference purposes, we simply use those numbers for a witness
when we are going through this pile of materials.
Now I would like you to take a look at CIA No. 197, the
second paragraph.
(Pause)
Mr. Shaw. Okay.
Mr. Goldsmith. The second paragraph indicates that the
station is unable to compare the voices, as the first tape was
erased prior to the receipt of the second call.
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that at least
one tape was still in existence on November 23rd, the date
that this cable was sent? Otherwise, the second paragraph would
have said the tapes had been erased, routinely, whatever.
Mr. Shaw. It could indicate that. It does not definitely
state that. That is an interpretation, certainly.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Does that refresh your memory as to whether
or not there was a taping system?
Mr. Shaw. I do not have anything in writing. This did
not refresh my memory at all. This probably would have been
considered.
Was this after the assassination?
Mr. Goldsmith.
Yes.
Mr. Shaw. No, I do not think it necessarily indicates,
but I am surprised that it does not say that they were both
destroyed, or both erased.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw. 208.
Mr.
Goldsmith.
to yourself, please.
(Pause)
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Please take a look at CIA 208.
And read paragraph number four. Read it
According to paragraph number four, it
indicates that it seems a voice comparison of some kind was
made.
glass
Mr. Shaw. Yes, or it could well be that this guy, Fine-
Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Tarasoff?
Mr. Shaw. Remembered the poor Russian of the first tape
and the poor Russian of the second tape and figured that it
was the same guy.
Mr. Goldsmith. How long were tapes normally retained
prior to being erased?
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. It would seem to me if you had
a very productive tape, you probably would not keep it very
long, once you transcribed it.
(Pause)
Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you to read the CS comment on
CIA 239.
Mr. Shaw. I have read it.
25
Mr. Goldsmith.
According to that, it indicates that the
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normal time lag would be two weeks. In other words, the tapes
would normally be retained for a two-week period.
Mr. Shaw. That is what it seems to say, yes.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Is that consistent with your memory now,
at the time?
Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not have any idea. I was not involved
in tape pick-ups or tape erasures.
Mr. Goldsmith.
later on,
The Oswald telephone calls, as we will see
came in within approximately four days of each other,
if, as CIA 239 indicates, the tapes were normally retained for
two weeks prior to being routinely erased. Does that suggest
to you that the Oswald tape was, for some reason, treated in
an unusual manner, because either the first call came in, let's
say September 27th. By the time the second call came in, the
4
first tape had already been erased..
Mr. Shaw. No, it does not suggest that to me.
ber here:: because thismessage came out 9 December 63.
what is this num
What it
suggests to me is that, subsequent to the assassination, is
that the station was to hold tapes for a minimum of two weeks.
Mr. Goldsmith. Please read into the record what 239 says.
Mr. Shaw. CS comment: station to erase routine tapes,
Soviet Embassy, keeping normal two week lag.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Does that suggest to you that the normal
24 lag would not be two weeks?
25
Mr. Shaw.. This was not addressed to me.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
I understand that.
Mr. Shaw. There is no reason for me to read this anymore
than there is reason for you to read that. The words stand
by themselves.
Mr. Goldsmith. That is right, and you have just given an
interpretation of those words, suggesting that that the mean-
ing is prospective in intent. In other words, after December
9, 1963, the timelag for retention of tapes prior to erasure
would be two weeks.
Mr. Shaw. I think it could read that, yes. I do not know
what went on between Winn and the station as far as periods
for keeping these, but I think what you are trying to do is lead
me into a situation of pointing out that the station was remiss
in destroying tapes, and I do not believe that is the case.
Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to indicate to you, and also
for the record, that what I am trying to do here is go over
questions that are raised by the documents and the Committee
has no predisposition, one way or the other, to reach any
particular conclusions.
The truth is that unless these questions are asked of
21 you, both the Agency and the Committee will be criticized by
people in the future who review these documents and say, why
13
23 were not these questions asked of you.
24
Mr. Shaw. I can understand why you are asking the ques-
25 tions. I am simply not in a position to tell you, from memory
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or anything else what the normal station procedure was regard-
ing retention of tapes, although, as I did indicate earlier,
that the tapes were routinely erased and used over again. As
far as the time lag, you know as much about it, and probably
more than I do, by now.
Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have
with regard to the photo-surveillance operation against the
Cuban Embassy and consulate?
Mr. Shaw. I had no responsibility for that operation
until after I reassumed the Cuban Ops section which would have
been the day Phillips left for Mexico, probably a year or
two down the road. I do know, however, that the operation
there was a Cuban photo, or a photo operation against the
Cuban Embassy.
If I
I do not remember why, but I think that observation was
not active in the period when Oswald was in Mexico.
remember correctly, the man, to the best of my knowledge who
handled that, who was actually the inside case officer, if
you will, was the little guy who was snapping the pictures,
was a fellow by the name of Robert Zambarnadi, and I believe
he is retired and living in Mexico. I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the station case officer responsible
for running the photo-surveillance operation against the
24
25
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Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, it was Robert Zambarnardi,
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who was the technical officer of the station. He was a
technically qualified man.
3
Mr. Goldsmith.
a
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There was no one overseeing him?
Mr. Shaw. I do not believe so, but maybe Dave was. I
do not know. We used to get batches of pictures. One of the
things that I would do with the agent that I mentioned earlier
was that I handled was take batches of these pictures to him
and sit down with him and say, did you ever see this guy, or
who was that? And he'd say, that's a courier, or that's the
10 new officer who just arrived, or I do not know who this guy
but he came in and talked to so and so, that sort of
13
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was,
thing.
We used to try to identify people with those pictures.
Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there taking
pictures of the Cuban consulate and Embassy?
Mr. Shaw. To the best of my knowledge, there was only
one photo base. At times, the consulate was not covered and
the Embassy was. If I may draw you a picture, this would be
the block, the compound block. The Cuban Embassy was the
big building up here, and there was a little gatehouse down
here. I do not remember whether it was in or out.
This was the consulate, on the corner.
People who would
23
25
want to get visas would routinely appear here and they would
send them down the street and they would go into the consulate.
Sometimes they knew where they were going and they came in here,
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or they asked a cab, take me to the Cuban consulate, they
would probably be delivered here.
This is a block, a city block. The house from which the
photographs were taken is over here on this corner. The
photographs were taken long distance down here and here.
was not always covered. This was considered more important,
This
because it was routine -- either there was a lot of routine
visa stuff here.
Later on, subsequent gosh, it must have been a year
later. I do not remember just when we developed a system,
or somebody up here in the states who developed a system
whereby the camera would be triggered automatically.
movement
He w
That is
sort of like a photo-electric cell or something
movement up here in the picture that the camera was to cover
would cause a series of photos to be taken, maybe four or
five, zap, zap, zap, something like that.
But I believe that, at the time Oswald was in Mexico City,
not only was this down for some reason and not functioning,
but I believe, had it been functioning, that it would have
20 been individual picture snapping. I do not think that autos
21
matic equipment was in Mexico at that time.
I could be
wrong.
Mr. Goldsmith. I am not going to be able to introduce
this diagram into the record, so I am just going to describe
24
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it as best as I can.
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You indicated that on one block, one one corner of that
2 block was a consulate building for the Cubans. The other side
3
of the block was the Embassy building.
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Across the street was the photo base.
Mr. Shaw.
This was all wall. This was
a compound.
Excuse me, if I may interject. There was another building back
here that had a theatre downstairs and had offices upstairs.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Was that within the compound also?
Three buildings within the Cuban compound?
Mr. Goldsmith. The photo base was located across the
street If was closer to the consulate than it was to the
entrance of the Embassy?
Mr. Shaw. That is correct.
Mr. Goldsmith. From the diagram that you drew, it would
seem that the location of the camera was closer to the consulate
than it was to the Embassy entrance, yet you also indicated
that most of the people of interest would have been entering
the Embassy, not the consulate?
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Mr. Goldsmith. Was not the placement of that camera in
an inappropriate position?
Mr. Shaw. I imagine that camera was placed wherever we
could get it. Getting real straight across from one of those
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embassies was very difficult.
I know, had we had our druthers, we would have placed
that camera closer up here and the Soviet Embassy had a similar
sort of situation, a camera over here and one down here.
believe the closer the better, yes.
Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there operating
against the Soviet compound, without drawing a diagram?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know, but I think there must have
been two or three.
Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure you were not the case officer
overseeing the surveillance operation against the Cubans?
you?
Mr. Shaw. I certainly am.
Mr. Goldsmith. So Mr. Zambernardi was not working under
Mr. Shaw. I did not consider him working under me, at
that time. Later on, when he was replaced and I am not sure
whether Dave Phillips was there or not, I did move into this
operation. I am trying to think of the cryptonym for the
operation. I cannot recall.
And the chap who then handled it was Zambernardi's
replacement, I think his name was Humphrey.
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That was the
surname. Lou Humphrey, I think.
I am not sure.
Mr. Goldsmith.
What was the purpose of the photo-surveil-
lance operation?
Mr. Shaw. Primarily to identify people in touch with the
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Would everyone's picture be taken?
Mr. Shaw. No, no way.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Whose picture would be taken?
Mr. Shaw. For example, that you would normally in an
operation like this be limited by time available for the
photographer. You would be limited by daylight. You would
not photograph a milkman, or a mailman or somebody who would
be there repeatedly. You would not photograph a staffer of
the Embassy if once you knew who he was, unless he was walking
with somebody.
You would not photograph a regular visitor to the Embassy,
if you knew who he was.
Mr.
Mr.
is no.
Goldsmith.
Shaw.
Would you photograph all foreigners?
do not know. I would have to say the answer
I never photographed any of them. Do you mean would
all foreigners be photographed? I would say, given the
limitations that I have enumerated, namely how long a person
can sit there and watch, and they have to take a break now
and then, daylight, Sundays they probably did not photograph
21 because there is little activity. I am sure there were consider-
13
23
able down periods in this sort of operation.
No, I would say all foreigners were not photographed.
24 Ideally, you would like to have a picture of anybody who went
25 in and out of there, surely.
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Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that.
My question is, while surveillance base was in operation,
would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners?
Yes. That would have been a primary
Mr. Shaw.
purpose. Not necessarily foreigners, but people you do not.
recognize.
Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners
to us, of course.
Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to
photograph the license plates of automobiles that came to these
embassies.
Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these photo bases
in operation?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would say most likely during
business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the
photographer was available to do the job.
Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer?
F
The Reporter: Question: "During what hours were these
photo bases in operation?"
Answer: "I do not know. I would say most likely during
(business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the
21 photographer was available to do the job."
13
Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would
23 photographers have been available to do the job?
24
Mr. Shaw.
I do not know.. I was not involved in these
25 operations: I used to see quite a bit of coverage.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
What were your primary responsibilities
when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo-
surveillance operation; you were not involved
for interrupting you.
Mr. Shaw. Go ahead.
excuse me
Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo-
surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire
tap operation, so, my question is, what was your primary
responsibility?
Mr. Shaw. My primary responsibility was to try to
effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good
bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt-
ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might
go after.
By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit.
I spent a lot of time collecting information from the
Cuban asset on the outside to process into the intelligence
reports on what was happening in Cuba.
We had a system set up in Mexico City under an agent
20 called AMSAIE who was the representative of the exile commun-
ity. He would arrange to meet, help, debrief, Cubans who were
arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States
13
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or to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who
were exiting Cuba.
Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other
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countries of the Hemisphere. The OAS recommended that;
Mexico did not do it.
So, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably
had one of the most productive operations there in Mexico
City regarding information on what was going on in Cuba.
I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that.
· Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue?
Mr. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Yes.
Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o.
I did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been
attempted prior to my arrival, in which the man who would know
about it, if it had been attempted, would be Mr. Thomas
Hazelit.
14
Mr. Goldsmith.
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What about Teresa Proenza?
Mr. Shaw. No, I never made any attempt to recruit
Teresa Proenza?
Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you know if anyone ever did?
Mr. Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington who
had formerly served in Mexico City who was very interested
in Teresa Proenza. That officer's name was Charles Anders.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Is he still with the Agency?
23
Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is.
24
Mr. Goldsmith.
What about Guillermo Ruiz?
23
Mr. Shaw.
That does not even ring a bell.
Ruiz is a
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very common Spanish name.
Do you want to tell me who he is
or if you have anything on him? Maybe it might ring abbell.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli-
gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy.
Mr. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there.
Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr. Ray Swider's
responsibilities were, if you said?
Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name
another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations.
he was
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to
do with the photo operation.
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. He may have; I do not know.
I do not think he did. He may have.
Mr. Goldsmith.
After your arrival in Mexico City, did
anyone attempt to recruit Ascue?
Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, there was no attempt made
to recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing
18 tricks on me. I know I never went after him.
20
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5!
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(A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get into the number of
people who were in Cuban Operations in October of '63, September,
October of 163. Could you tell me again how many?
Mr. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at
24 the American Embassy at that time, think I could pretty well
www.gapp
23 quickly, in the station if you have such a list, I probably
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could very quickly identify those that had some connection
with Cuban Ops.
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Mr. Goldsmith. The Agency has not given us that list
today to have for this purpose.
Mr. Shaw. Do you have one lying around?
Mr. Goldsmith.
No.
So far, according to my recollection of appearances,
we have Mr. Phillips, yourself and Mr. Swider.
Mr. Shaw. When I arrived there, Tom Hasbrook would have
been there. He would have been gone by that time.
ops.
John Zambernardi would have been involved in the technical
I am not sure whether Peggy Magret was there or not.
300 7TH STREET, S.V.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
How many case officers were there in
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Cuban operations?
sure.
four?
Mr. Shaw. Probably just three, three or four, I am not
Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers, probably
Mr.
Shaw. At least three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Was thereaaffourth?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who
else was there.
24
Wait a minute.
25
what was it called?
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Lorna McKay was there, as a researcher
Research analyst.
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Mr.
Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers.
I do have a list here, referred to as CIA 169-70, which
has a list of Agency employees.
list?
(Pause)
Mr. Shaw. Okay.
Would you please examine that
Perhaps there would have been myself, Ray Swider, Dave
Phillips and Lorna McKay.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Was Lorna McKay a case officer?
Mr. Shaw. Lorna McKay was not considered
yes, I guess
she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled.
She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had
officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS-9 or -11 or
something. I do not remember.
But Peggy, the girl
mentioned awhile ago, was not there
until 1965. That was about it.
The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself,
Ray Swider, Lorna McKay.
Mr. Goldsmith.
How did you divide up your responsibilities?
Mr. Shaw. Let me interject.
Jack Stewart was there, but
he was not in Mexico City. He was in Yucatan, in the consulate.
Mr. Goldsmith.
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Fine.
23
How did you four divide up your responsibilities?
23
Mr. Shaw. We were given certain agents to handle and we
handled those agents, and Dave Phillips would decide what
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other activities he would pass around. I notice
Mr. Goldsmith. Which were those other activities?
Mr. Shaw.
Anything that might come to light that Dave
would an ad hoc requirement, or something like that, he
,
might ask any of us to help out, or somebody else might ask
us to do something. I went out and helped surveil a meeting
one time for one of these guys down here. It had nothing to
do with Cuban Ops.
Mr. Goldsmith.
What procedures did the four of you
10 establish for reviewing photographs?
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Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was
route the photographs and show them to any agent, personnel,
who might be in a position to identify the persons in the
photographs.
Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you identify all the photographs
in the Cuban Operation Branch?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a system to this?
Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. When I got
photographs, I would show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him tell
me who they were and I would write a contact report and submit
it to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips.
I would assume that Ray Swider probably did the same
thing with his agents.
25
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for
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i reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing that
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all of the photographs were being reviewed by you and other
Cuban Operations case officers?
Mr. Shaw. I had no way of knowing. I was seeing all the
photographs, that is true. I assumed I did.
Mr. Goldsmith. You had no way of knowing that?
Mr. Shaw. Not unless I would have gone to pick them up
from the man who took them and developed them, which I did not
do.
Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcripts, did you
have any procedure for insuring that all of the transcripts
were being reviewed?
Mr. Shaw. Did I have a procedure?
0
No.
The station
Winn Scott
14 routed the transcripts to the various officers.
17
20
quite often routed them. I notice you had a transcript some-
where here
Mr. Goldsmith. We will look at the transcripts later on.
Mr. Shaw.. Winn Scott quite often routed those to a
specific officer.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Were all of the transcripts pertaining to
21 Cuban operations that were sent to the station reviewed by at
22
least one of the Cuban operations case officers?
23
Mr. Shaw. I do not know.
24
Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man?
25
Mr. Shaw. What do you mean by "demanding"?
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Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard
and to perform thorough, competent work?
Mr. Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many
words.
It was my understanding that until he was remarried he
worked long hours in the Embassy, before I got there. Sometimes
he had people in there at 9:00 o'clock at night.
Mr. Goldsmith. Compared to other station chiefs that
you had worked under, was he more demanding or less?
Mr. Shaw. I would not say he was any more. He expected
work out of his people and got it.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the Mexico City
station had one of the biggest telephone surveillance opera-
tions in existence?
Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Any CIA station?
--
Mr. Shaw.
I don't know about any CIA station.
Certainly
18
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in Latin America. It ate up a lot of man hours.
Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott
apparently was a demanding man and that you had one of the
largest surveillance operations in effect in Latin America,
your testimony today is that you do not know whether the Cuban
operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts?
Mr. Shaw. I do not think that the prefacing was necessary
25 The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am aware
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that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined
by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do
not know.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Goldsmith.
We just went off the record for a moment
because Mr. Shaw had a question about where his car was parked
and whether there would be any problem about that, and I
indicated that I did not think there would be a problem.
Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the photographs
to the station, the tape from the surveillance operation?
It was my understanding that the technician
Bob Zambernardi would have picked them up
Mr. Shaw.
picked them up.
from the agent.
You are talking of the Cuban Embassy now?
Mr. Goldsmith.
Yes, and consulate.
Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he would have
picked them up from the agent who took the photographs.
The
agent who took the photographs developed them, printed them,
and turned the prints over to Mr. Zambernardi.
That is the way
I think it worked.
Mr. Goldsmith. How would you actually get to review the
photographs?
me.
Who would bring them to you?
Mr. Shaw. Usually I do not remember who brought them to
I have the impression it may have been Lorna McKay, but
I could be wrong. Maybe Bob brought them to me.
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But I would get a batch of photographs to go through.
1-50
Mr. Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for
passing along the information that had been obtained from the
photographs and the transcripts?
Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of
Usually, it yielded what we called operational
the photographs.
information rather than intelligence information, to enable us
to develop a better understanding of who was in the area,
who was in the Cuban Embassy, and what they were up to.
of
As far as reporting intelligence that came from those,
it probably was reported by the reports section of the Embassy
Next to Winn Scott's office was the CA Chief's office and,
next to that; I'm getting in the new embassy now.
I don
not remember where the report section was in the old embassy.
We had reports officers who actually repaired most of the
reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by the case
officers.
Again, I would like to point out that these photographs
It was mostly
yielded very little reportable intelligence.
20 operational intelligence.
13
23
Mr. Goldsmith.
Understood.
Who was George Monroe?
Mr. Shaw. George Monroe was a former agent, Special Agent,
24
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation who retired or resigned,
25
I do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico
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City on the outside, as a non-official cover asset for Winn
2 Scott.
Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had a lot of contact with
3 George Monroe. I very seldom saw George Monroe. I had nothing
to do with him operationally.
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were?
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities
Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with
dealings with the Mexican government, liaison responsibilities.
I think George was used by Winn because George had good contacts
in the Ministry of Interior, which would have been sort of the
equivalent of the Department of Justice here and out of that
Ministry came, for example, the man who became President of
Mexico. He was the station asset, contact, not agent.
son,
Mr. Goldsmith. You mentioned earlier, Mr. Charles Ander-
is that correct?
Mr. Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Mr. Anderson had an inter-
est in Eusbio Ascue?
Mr. Shaw. No, I do not believe it was.
I think it was
20 Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in Ascue.
21
13
23
Mr. Goldsmith.
interest in Ascue?
Who was the individual who had the
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I said if it had been before
my arrival, I would suspect it was Tom Hasley. He was carrying
24
25
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activity. do not know that he did, but if it happened in,
say, late '62 or somewhere in there, it probably would have
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been Tom who would have done that.
Mr. Goldsmith. What was Anderson's position at the
Embassy?
Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at
the Embassy back in 1965. I do not know, for a number of years.
At that time, Charlie had gone back to Headquarters and he
was involved in Cuban operations from Headquarters, the details
of which were not made known to me. Whether they were made
known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith. When would he have made an effort, if
he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza?
Mr. Shaw. I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit.
I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest. I do not
think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did%; they
were wasting their time.
Mr. Goldsmith..
Why were they wasting their time?
300 7TH STREET, S.V.
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Mr.
Shaw. She was
I can remember
a pretty tough nut.
I do not remember any vulnerability of
I never
saw
if
21 Teresa Proenza.
13
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Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of Mr. Anderson's
interest in her?
Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest,
15 maybe trying to get some information from her through a third
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party. I have no idea.
Mr. Goldsmith.
When did he spend time in Mexico City that
he would have had an opportunity?
Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often.
Mr. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed down
there, he visited often?
Mr. Shaw. That is correct. He made trips in and out of
Mexico City.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's position
was at the Cuban Embassy or Consulate?
Mr. Shaw. I think by that time she was out of the Embassy,
was she not? I do not remember. She left.
Teresa Proenza was a Mexican.
She was not a Cuban.
And
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I am under the impression that by the time I got there,
Teresa had left the Embassy. I may be wrong. I think that
she was involved in cultural activities.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mexican intelligence
would have had any penetration agents at the Cuban Embassy or
consulate?
Mr. Shaw. I think they would have tried.
do not know
21 how effective Mexican intelligence was. I did not deal with
13
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it.
It would be assumed that they made every attempt, the
24 Cubans were gradually removing Mexicans from their employee,
from the Cuban Embassy. I think it highly unlikely that the
25
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Mexican government, given its position, was the only government
2
in the Western Hemisphere which maintained relations with
3 Cuba, would have been it would have been highly unlikely for
them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national.
On the other hand, I think it would have been likely,
and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find
out from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going
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on.
What this comes down to, of course, is gardeners and
secretaries.
Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you make that distinction between
a Cuban national and a Mexican?
Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap
potential. If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and
the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reported it
to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have
had a problem with the Cuban Foreign Ministry.
Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was
also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation
or the Agency as well.
Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their
There is an element of risk in every
risk, yes,
certainly.
operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they
had anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my
experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans,
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that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion on
Mexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexican
national security on what is going on in that Embassy.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Who would have been in a position to know
if the Mexican government successfully penetrated the Cuban
Embassy or consulate?
Mr. Shaw. The President of Mexico would have known.
The chief or chiefs of the Mexican service or services.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Any American?
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Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you know whether there was any coordina-
tion between the telephone tap operations and the photo
operations. For example, if a conversation of interest came
up on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the call
be able to contact through an intermediary the photo bases
to warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming of
interest?
Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system did
not exist, and I do not believe that the guys monitoring the
20 telephone tap intercept bases were made aware of photograph
21
coverage.
St
23
However, I would assume that a man running a technical
operation, if he heard something exciting on the line,
as
24 opposed to a tape several days later, would notify his case
25 officer right away and then it might be possible for the case
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officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank up
the people at the photo house to take pictures. This was in
3 the most perfect of all worlds. Usually things did not work
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that way and you end up out on the street, in the middle of
the night two days later, contacting whoever it is taking
photographs.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the Mexico City
station ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not.
I never
saw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.
Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation that
Charlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found a
photograph of Oswald, or someone she thought to be Oswald,
in the Headquarters files shortly after the assassination?
Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. Knowing
Charlotte
And appen
not knowing her well, but having known her over
the years, I would assume that had she found such a thing
she would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look what
I found.
Mr. Goldsmith.
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With regard to the photo operation, let
us assume for a moment that you come across a picture of
interest. Did you have any way of determining on what day and
approximately what time the picture would have been taken?
Mr. Shaw. Very definitely.
25
Mr. Goldsmith.
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Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were
annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or
afternoon, a.m. or p.m.
Sometimes you could judge by the
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sequence.
Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going
in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating
was operating manually, he would no doubt, the guy with the
red-checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10:05. He would note'
that in a little log.
I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph
or submit the log with the number keyed to the log in the
photograph. Quite often we knew to the minute when a person
in a photograph came in or went out or stood in front or walked
by.
Mr. Goldsmith. I see.
So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production logs
that could be checked?
Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes.
19 Whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on
20
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the photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it
was noted, I have no idea.
The photographs, quite often came in the form of 35 mm.
contact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those.
I recall - I had not thought about it all these years,
25 but usually you knew when a guy, you certainly knew when he went
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in on Tuesday morning, the 16th of May, whatever that date
was.
Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back of
the photograph or contact print as to the time?
Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking
the photographs because he took the photographs, developed
the photographs, printed them and turned them over.
Mr.
Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would
have to go to his log and see what the time was and then make
the entry?
Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to
himself like I mentioned, the bright shirt or something.
Then
he would recognize that person in the photograph and make that
notation.
(Pause)
Mr. Goldsmith.
When was the first time that the name
Lee Harvey Oswald came to your attention?
Mr. Shaw. It would have been the evening of the day of
19 the assassination.
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Mr.
Goldsmith.
How did that happen?
Mr. Shaw. We listened. We had a radio. I think it was
one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy
23 offices.
24
I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the
25 assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs
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and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was
2
in Pat Johnson's office
*
her name was something else in
3 those days. I can't remember her married name.
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And they said something about the police said it was Lee
Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the
first time that it came to my attention.
Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at
CIA No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly
involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October 163.
10 Would you please read through that?
12
(Pause)
When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if
13 you have ever seen it before?
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Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether I have ever seen it or
not, but I may well have. I was aware that he had called the
Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man
was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before
that.
Normally, I would not.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Prior to the assassination, did you see
20
21
it?
5!
Mr. Shaw. No.
If I did, I did not pay any attention.
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I do not believe that it was on a Cuban line.
Mr. Goldsmith.
23
Mr. Shaw.
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No, it was not.
Sometimes you can tell who saw these things by
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the initials up top.
3 one,
Mr. Goldsmith.
however.
There are notwritings or notations on that
Would you please read CIA 177, which is a cable from
Mexico City station dated October 8th?
(Pause)
Mr. Shaw. Yes, this is typical where they try to identify
00
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somebody that was in the Embassy at the same time.
Of course,
that does not sound like it.
Mr. Goldsmith.
This was the famous cable that has given
rise to some of the issues that the Committee was concerned
with. My first question is, did you have anything to do with
the writing of this cable?
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Mr. Shaw. No I did not.
I would not have had.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how the photograph referred
to in paragraph number two of that cable was in some way linked
to Oswald?
no.
Mr. Shaw. I would assume, my answer to your question is
I would assume that this was an effort on the part of
20 the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify.
21
13
Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how she made that conclusion
23 that the photograph reflected Oswald?
24
25
Mr. Shaw.
No.
I do not think she did. I think she
merely says that we got a guy who looks like he might be an
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American going in, and maybe this is the fellow. I do not
see from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. I
3 rather suspect they never got a picture of Oswald. This is
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the one that appeared there, that looked like it could be
an American.
Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquarters
by saying a man who looked like he might be an American
entered the Soviet Embassy at that time.
Mr. Goldsmith. I agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly,
the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph of
Oswald. At the same time, though, it gives the information
in paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes an
reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to be
North American.
Certainly they would not have sent to Headquarters simply
a cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by putting
the photograph in paragraph 2 immediately below the information
on Oswald, although the cable does not say that the photograph
is one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they are
related.
Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an American
21 who claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, and
13
then they went to the photographs to see if they could find
23 anybody who looked like he might be an American, and the
photo they found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build,
about 6 feet tall, receding hair line and so forth; and they
25
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submitted this on the off-chance that this might have been the
man who made the call.
Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopeful
that you understand that I am not suggesting that the cable
definitely says the photograph is one of Oswald.
Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not see that it does at all.
Mr. Goldsmith.
CIA 183?
(Pause)
Would you please take a look, now, at
Mr. Shaw. All right, I have read it.
Mr. Goldsmith.
This is a cable, is it not, from CIA
Headquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to the
earlier cable from the station reporting Oswald's contact?
Mr. Shaw. That is what it looks like to me.
Mr. Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requests
that the station keep Headquarters advised of any further
contacts or positive identification of Oswald?
Mr.
Shaw. Yes.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sent
20 any additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald?
21
23
24
25
Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeing
this cable, either.
Mr. Goldsmith. Today is possibly the first time that you
have seen that cable?
Mr. Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with
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my initials on it, but I doubt it.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow
pointed to the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald."
the arrow it says "sic," s-i-c.
Adjacent to
What do you think Mr. Scott was intending to indicate
when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry" in "Lee Henry Oswald"?
Mr. Shaw. I would rather suspect that he wrote this on
here subsequent to the assassination when the word came out it was
"Harvey Oswald" rather than "Henry Oswald" unless there is
something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any?
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr.
No, there is none.
Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote
on later so that they would get the file in the right name.
That would be my guess.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14.
You may also want to take a look at CHAANO. 15 at the same
time.
(Pause)
Would you identify the document that you just reviewed?
Mr. Shaw. What it looks like is a normal LIENVOY trans-
21 cription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything
22
that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and
Goodpasture made checks on it. There is my name, but there
23
24
is no indication, no initial on my part.
25
see it.
Probably I did not
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Mr. Goldsmith.
What is the date of that transcript?
Mr. Shaw. 28 September 1963 is what is listed on here.
3
Mr. Goldsmith.
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transcript before?
Do you recall whether you ever saw that
Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it after-
know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt
wards, because
with Oswald.
Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this trans-
cript was linked to Oswald?
Mr.
Mr.
Shaw.
I have no idea.
Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment. The
transcript that appears at CIA No. 13 contains a notation in
brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who
called a day or so ago.
Mr. Shaw. To the Soviet Embassy.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Yes.
Oswald also said I was there last Saturday.
The trans-
cript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday.
Do you recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked
you whether you were aware of a contact by Oswald?
Mr. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me,
and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar.
21
I
23
would have heard about this after the assassination, because
24
I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a Mexican citizen
25
inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with.
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Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was making
on the October 1st transcript, it refers back to something
3 that happened a day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, and
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I wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this,
came to you to discuss this matter?
Mr. Shaw. I do not believe they did. Barbara probably
would have processed this, but I do not recall that anybody
ever came to me about it.
Mr. Goldsmith. Fine.
Would you please now take a look
at CIA Nos. 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20?
(Pause)
Mr. Shaw.
initials
Here you have one that I saw.
No. 19. I did not see this one.
Those are my
Let me see what we have got here.
(Pause)
I have read it.
Mr. Goldsmith.
document No. 22.
Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIA
Mr. Shaw. Yes, I have not read them carefully, but I
20 have looked them over.
13
23
Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could you
identify that document?
Mr. Shaw. This is a LIENVOY transcript.
24
Mr. Goldsmith.
25
Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript?
Mr. Shaw. It is a summary.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw.
What is the date of that transcript?
According to the thing in the margin, 27
September '63, 1963. This is really the same darned thing
here.
Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears
on CIA No. 17?
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Mr. Shaw.
It appears to be.
Approximately what time was this phone
Mr. Goldsmith.
call received?
Mr. Shaw. It looks like something put on by pen, "Five
minutes after 4:00 in the afternoon. MF means a woman
is that MF?
Mr. Goldsmith. Do not worry about that.
When was the first time you saw this transcript?
Mr. Shaw. I do not remember..
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21
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Mr. Goldsmith.
Did you see it before the assassination?
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.
Mr. Goldsmith.
corner.
Your name appears in the right-hand
Mr. Shaw. My name appears there.
However, it is not
crossed out. If you turn over a couple of pages, you will see
my initials on another thing which deals with the same period.
Mr. Goldsmith.
I will do that in a minute.
Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald
prior to the assassination?
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Mr. Shaw.
I do not know whether it was or not. I
gather it was not.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Why is that?
Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it,
Oswald on here anywhere.
Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom
right-hand
Mr. Shaw. That is the file number.
Mr. Goldsmith. What file would that be?
Mr. Shaw. That says subject file.
50-8-10-6. I do not
know off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for
Mexico.
8-10-6 would be a subject file.
Probably possibly someplace where they put information
on people where they are trying to travel to the Soviet Union.
I do not know; that is a guess.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw.
Let's take a look at CIA No. 19.
Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks
like my initial. It is very similar.
Mr. Goldsmith.
In the upper right-hand corner?
Mr. Shaw. I cannot imagine anyone else putting it there.
20
21
Mr. Goldsmith.
This is the conversation that took place
51
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24
later in the day, is that correct?
Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right.
Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation
25 took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to
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the documents?
Mr. Shaw. There is an indication there.
Mr. Goldsmith!
When did this document first come to your
attention?
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea, because there is no date up
there. I do not know when it was circulated or anything.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know when it was first linked to
Oswald?
Mr. Shaw. I do not.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Did Herbert or Barb Minnell ever come to
you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in
reference to the transcript dated October 1st?
Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember.
Mr. Goldsmith..
copy Oswald P-file.
At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says
Essentially, do you know when that nota-
tion was put on?
17
18
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24
Mr. Shaw. I do not know.
Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a
notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41.
Do you know what that would refer to?
Mr. Shaw.
I have no idea what the D stands for.
The
200-5-41 sounds like a file number.
Mr. Goldsmith.
E
Do you know for what?
Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, but I would assume, again, that
25
maybe that would be
if it is in the 50 series, it would be.
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a Mexico City file. But it may be a Headquarters
2
a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document?
1-69
is this
Mr. Goldsmith. This is a Headquarters document.
Mr. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number.
idea what the D stands for. It does not look right.
I have no
Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but
for the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to
ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City sta-
tion received the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th
or 11th, did the Mexico City Station ever send any additional
information concerning Oswald to Headquarters?
Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, they did not, but I would
have no way of knowing.
Did you ever speak to Herb Minnell about
Mr.
Goldsmith.
this?
Mr. Shaw.
NO.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw.
No.
Barbara Minnell?
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw. No.
Dave Phillips?
Mr. Goldsmith. What, if anything, do you know about the
arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination?
Mr. Shaw. I remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested.
I do not know why. I could have suggested that myself, but I
23
do not remember.
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I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting
that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in
a ring of guards around the Cuban Embassy and question everybody
going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my
head.
I know that Sylvia Duran was arrested.. She was fair game
because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans
not have any Cuban diplomatic immunity.
she did.
I would have thought it would have been a good idea to
question here very closely. As to whether I said that she
should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do
not know. I was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters was upset
about that arrest?
Mr. Shaw. I have no idea.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters did not want
any Americans to confront her or to interview her?
Mr. Shaw.
No.
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that
Oswald may have been an agent of the KGB?
Mr. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
How about an agent, asset or source of
the CIA?
Mr. Shaw. I would think that that would be completely
out of the question.
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Mr. Goldsmith.
For purposes of the record, could you
explain why you think that would be out of the question?
Mr. Shaw. Because I think it would have come to light
immediately had he had any CIA connections.
Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner?
Mr. Shaw.
Somebody would have revealed this fact.
Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset or
employee, is it possible that someone would have been able to
cover that fact up?
Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw.
Why not?
Had he been an agent, then it would have been
on the record somewhere.
Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the record could have
been erased or purged in some way?
tion.
Mr. Shaw. I seriously doubt it.
Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason?
Mr. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organiza
It stands on that, and the people in it.
Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have
21 any safeguards to prevent records from being erased or purged?
Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say
22
23 you can't destroy material. I would say that the safeguards
24 again come back to the basic integrity of the people in the
25 organization.
When you lose a President, you do not mess
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around, and I think everybody would have turned over every
2
possible stone to find out anything they could that would be
3 useful in determining the responsibility for that assassina-
x)
tion.
I know I would have. I was a Kennedy man, and I imagine
there were a lot of us in the outfit who identified very
closely with the President.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Did you ever know anybody by the name of
Maurice Bishop?
Mr. Shaw.
No.
11
Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you know whether David Phillips, or
12 anyone else, ever used the name Maurice Bishop as an operational
13
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alias of some kind?
Mr. Shaw. I am not aware that they did, but I would
have to answer your question no. Dave Phillips does not seem
like a Maurice type, somehow.
Mr. Goldsmith. Did Headquarters ever criticize the
Mexico City station in any way for its handling of the Oswald
matter prior to the assassination?
Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of.
21
Mr. Goldsmith.
5!
For that matter, after the assassination?
Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. I must add that
23 criticism would have been conveyed to the Chief of Station
24
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rather than to the case officers.
Mr. Goldsmith..
When Oswald returned to the United States
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from the Soviet Union, would it have been standard operating
procedure for the Agency to have interviewed him or debriefed
him in some way?
Mr. Shaw. No.
I think that it would have been more
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likely for the FBI to interview him.
Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that?
Mr. Shaw. Because he was an American citizen in the
United States. That was the FBI's territory.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Even though Oswald worked for several
years not for several years, but for some time
radio factory while he was in Russia?
in a
Mr. Shaw. I was not aware that he worked in a radio
factory, but the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union,
the fact that he had been in the United States Marine Corps,
would indicate to me that if he had been interviewed, he
would have been interviewed by the FBI.
Mr. Goldsmith. Does not the Agency have a Domestic
Contacts Division, or service, which customarily interviews
19 people who have been abroad in Communist countries?
R
Mr. Shaw. The Agency has the Domestic Contacts Division.
21 It used to be called 0/0 Contacts. I never worked with those
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people.
It is my understanding that what they do is routinely
24
debrief, if the person is willing, businessmen
in the old.
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days, tourists
Qua and
who had visited the Soviet Union, or to
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debrief a man who might have other involvement in the Soviets
would not, I believe, have fallen within the purview of the
0/0 Contacts Branch.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Do you have any knowledge of the opera-
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tional activity of the CI/SIG Branch of the CIA?
Mr. Shaw.
No.
never heard of CI/SIG.
is.
I do not know what SIG means. I have
CI is Counterintelligence staff. I don't know what SIG
Mr. Goldsmith.
Mr. Shaw, I would like to thank you for
your testimony today. I especially would like to thank you
for spending all of this time with us. I know that you have
been here since approximately 3:00 o'clock or so and it is
now about 7:30. You have been very patient.
Customarily, whenever a witness testifies before the
Committee, the witness is given an opportunity to make a
statement for the record. This is not a hearing, but I would
like to give you the same opportunity, if you would like to
take advantage of it.
Mr. Shaw. Well, I might take advantage of it. I had not
thought about it until you mentioned it, but harkening back
to what I said a little while ago, I do believe that our
organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover
of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men,
and I do not think that anyone in the organization would have
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allowed any cover-up or any destruction of evidence which might
2
shed some light on the assassination of President Kennedy.
3
In
I might add a little vignette. We had what it called a
which is a book that the people signed when
Libra Pecima
they come to a funeral or something. You may have run into
something like this in the states, when you go in and sign
in at the funeral parlor that you were there or something.
wwww dadd
You express your regrets a pecima, in Spanish, means regrets,
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or sorrow.
We had a book down in the lobby of the Embassy building
and when I came out one day shortly after the assassination
somebody in the crowd yelled Spanish for Bob, and I went over
was the Governor of the State of Sonora, which is
I had known him some
and it
a big state up in northwestern Mexico.
15 years earlier.
He was the son of the General who was the
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outstanding military leader of the Mexican Revolution from
about 1913 to about 1920.
His father had been President of Mexicol. His father was
assassinated, having been elected to a second term.
He was
20
already elected; he had not taken office.
21
I was profoundly touched by the presence of this son of
1
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an assassinated President in the lobby of our Embassy to,
turn, express his sorrow to us for the assassination of our
in
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President.
That does not prove anything one way or another, but it
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made a tremendous effect on me.
As I mentioned very early in our session today, I am not
aware that there was any exultation, satisfaction, or happi-
ness inside the Cuban Embassy over the assassination of the
President.
And I think, and my personal belief is, that
everything points to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it, and
done it alone.
There is nothing I have ever seen or heard which would
lead me to accept, for one moment, any complicity on the part
of my Agency or any other agency of the United States
government.
Mr. Goldsmith.
Thank you, Mr. Shaw.
I would like to add that as soon as the transcript of
this deposition is available, we will be in touch with you
so that you can have an opportunity to review it for accuracy
and again, I would like to thank you for your time and help
today.
Mr. Shaw. I thank you, gentlemen.
(Thereupon, at 7330 p.m. the Executive Session recessed.)
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
I, Rosemary C. Tascione, the officer before whom the
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition
was duly sworn by the Notary; that the testimony of said wit-
ness was taken by myself, stenomask reporter, and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties
to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further,
that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or
counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
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Rosemary C. Lascione
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