157-10011-10024
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COLBY, WILLIAM E.
TITLE:
SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY
DATE:
PAGES:
05/21/1975
113
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CASTRO
SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY
OPERATION MONGOOSE
CUBA
PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT.
Unclassified
Consulted; 1B; Donor Restricted
Redact
05/04/1994
COMMENTS:
SSCI Box 239, Folder 14
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157-10011
10024
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Vol. 1
Unauthorized Disclosure Subject
to Criminal Sanctions
The United States Senate R 119
CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO
DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR
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Colby
4 of 5
04/19/94
Report of Proceedings
ib
Hearing held before
INVENTORIED:
ON 5/18/27.
BY.
حلة
INVENTOR ED:.
2/16/77
BC
Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations
with Respect to Intelligence Activities
Record Number 157-10011-10024
COMMITTEE HEARING
SSCI Box 239, Folder 14
Wednesday, May 21, 1975
Washington, D. C.
(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
to the Committee for destruction)
WARD & PAUL
410 FIRST STREET, S. E.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003
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JUP DEGREI
the first man contacted by Mr. Maheu, worked through a
and he said that he
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Cuban exile leader. And he offered
could do something of this nature provided he got some funds
and the assistance. And he was supported in this regard.
And I think again we have some doubts as to the accuracy of
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his reporting.
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Mr. Schwarz.
Schwarz
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In November 1961 did Mr. Bissell indstruct
a William Harvey to take charge of the gambling syndicate
operation designed to kill Fidel Castro? Page 3 of Mr. Greer's
report, which is at the beginning of your report.
Mr. Colby. I believe so, yes.
Yes.
That is what our evidence says, the summary
sais, "of the evidence available". And this is the evidence
available in 1963. And there have been some minor changes in
some of the details of this summary, very minor changes.
But the essence of this report is still roughly accurate, I
Mr. Harvey was Mr. Harvey the man that
had hired an agent in order to kill Lmumba?
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believe.
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Mr. Schwarz.
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Mr. Colby. Mr. Harvey was the head of Staff D, Staff D
of the Operations directorate was responsible for communica-
tions intelligence we on the secret level. A substantial
portion of this staff's work involves attempts to penetrate
embassies particularly abroad
totally abroad, I don
"think they have every e one l ere, in orde to ge at thei
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1 codes andeciphers, and in the process, you obviously work up
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some people who are able to do this kind of work, which is
quite different from the normal life style of most of us.
Mr. Harvey had been a very venturesome officer in the
past. He was responsible for the Berlin tunnel. And he was
sent down to take this job. And he assumed as part of it the
capability of he was given by Mr. Bissel this chore of
carrying on this particular operation as well.
Mr. Schwarz. Had he been the person who had, in
connection with the abortive effort to kill Mr. Lmumba,
hired an agent for that purpose?
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Mr. Colby. I have forgotten whether he hired him. He
hired a foreigner. And this foreigner's job our records
1(B.
indicate that this foreigners
ob was
net
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tration of code* rooms and the safe cracking and things of this
nature for that purpos And there are some very obscure
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references that an additional assignment was to look into the
possible assassination of Mr. Lmumba.
The evidence is
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that he went down to what is now Kinshasa, Elizabethville in
1960, stayed there a few weeks, and left in October, I
believe. And then Mr. Lmumba was killed thereafter in a totally
separate set of circumstances in which we had nothing to do.
There is some indication that a CIA officer who was asked
to have something to do with this particular job said he did
not want to do it.
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was not advised of the assassination activities. Quite likely
I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation
system was such.
Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who
was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and
the Warren Commission?
Mr. Colby. To my knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca.
Chairman Church.
Where is it now?
Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year.
He remained working for us for a few months. I think he is
retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is still in
the Washington area.
Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us.
Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi-
tion of the whole counter intelligence program.
Chairman Church. Why did he retire?
Mr. Colby. That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and
the facts of that case were that I had had some professional
differences in the organization with Mr. Angleton as to the
way the counterintelligence business was run and the way taber 1 (b-)
Israeli account was handled. I believed that it required a
higher degree of coordination of the other elements of the
Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various
occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 and
took a number of functions away from it. The liaison with the
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FBi for instance, and a couple of other things.
endeavor
Lship wi
gradually
up the Israeli account to a better rela
ternac ities. We debated the
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over many months and on several occasions.
We could nevert
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really
ed on the importance of
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retaining it where it was.
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Angleton had done a very go
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of establishing that
liaison years ago and knew a lot of the semior Isragili wher
were involved in it.
I believed there was inadequate coordination in
fareas.
1(b)
Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart-
mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with
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our other divisions.
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We debated this and discussed it and I
set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December
because there were some very substantial retirement benefits
that people would loose if they stayed after that point.
unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd came
Then
īb
to our attention before it was actually published, and so I
brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make two
basic decisions. I was going to move the Israeli accoi
Control and I was going to put some sucessor leadership
I said I would
into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff.
offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence
He did not have to
doctrine, he could stay working with us.
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Chinese Communists subsequently blamed the Chinese Nationalists
and the US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft employee
had fled to Taiwan. We had nothing to do with that incident
and frankly heard about it after it occurred.
In the fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist official
informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to
assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in
November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest of
the Chinese Nationalist officer sent to Phnom Penh to supervise
the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we
had nothing to do with it.
We had a relationship with the Chinese Nationalists,
Intelligence Service over the years and they clearly have 'done
<nowledge or involvement, and in a number
have also worked together on one areas).
things without
bu
These are two that were separate.
libt
Also I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard Hunt
and Sturgis that appeared in Newsweek some years ago. We
obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 o'clock.
We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek
edition..
These are photographs of Howard Hunt in 1949, 1950 and
1961. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis.
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It is taken out of the Newsweek.
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We have had no connection with Mr. Sturgis and so we have
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individuals in it.
Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other photograph, the
supposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy?
Mr. Colby. I don't have that with me. It is in the
Warren Commission published report. It is in there.
Senator Schweiker. It is in there?
Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to
conceal where it was taken but it was
Senator Schweiker.
It is in the Warren Commission?
Mr. Colby. Yes, it is in the Warren Commission.
Just one additional matter.
Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to
you, Mr. Colby, before I forget it. You have made reference
Israeli account and the special way that it had been
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handled under Mr. Angleton.
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Cover
perations we would l4) to have a more
re we finish our
ew with
etailed
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statement of that matter.
1(타)
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Mr. Colby. Right.
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Chairman Church. And I think you should prepare to
discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask
you in connection with it.
I just wanted to give you notice.
Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a
covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover
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it.
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Mr. Harvey was given the responsibility of this by Mr.
Bissel and originally it continued as a separate action from
the Castro operation, but Mr. Harvey was also given that
responsibility, and for all intents and purposes they became
wedded.
Mr. Helms was the person who formally approved ZR Rifle
as a project. ZR Rifle had a dual purpose that has not been
clarified by our inquiry. It apparently was in fact used for
the stated purposes, as far as organizational activities went
along, which was to steal codes and Mr. Helms, when he
approved the project, authorized accounting on certification,
which meant that rather than the usual vouchers supporting
expenditures, that the officer involved would simply certify
that the money had been spent and this would be accepted.
It had a project amount of some dollars, $7500 - $10,000.
some of it to include the salary of an agent, some to include
operating expenses.
So Mr. Helms' main appearance in the approval of ZR Rifle
does not necessarily equate with the date when he became
familiar with the Castro operation.
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Mr. Breckinridge.
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Mr. Schwarz. Because of the dual purpose of Rifle, Rifle
means both, rifle files and used rifles?
It may mean either or both.
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Mr. Colby. It is supposed to disassociate but sometimes
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Mr. Schwarz.
November 1961?
Mr. Breckinridge.
I think that is probably correct.
It
3 was in the fall of 1961 that Mr. Harvey was given this assignment
by Mr. Eissel. I think Mr. Bissel left in 1962. I am not sure
5 of the dates, So Mr. Bissel would have known at that time.
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But I am not sure after that.
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of operations?
Chairman Church. Helms succeeded Mr. Bissel as chief
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Mr. Colby. Deputy Director of Plans.
Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans.
Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the ZR Rifle
operation, which, among other things, was to develop an executivé
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capability
whatever that means.
Presumably that means a
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capability to conduct an assassination if and when authorized
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by proper authority?
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Mr. Breckinridge.
That is my understanding.
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Chairman Church. Is that your understanding?
Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir.
Chairman Church. Do your records show that, or is that
based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation?:
Mr. Breckinridge.
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First, let me go back and clarify, then
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I will answer this question, if I may.
Mr. Helms approved ZR Rifle, which the secord showshas the
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Codes
ntiall
1(b)
My understanding, from my interviews, is that ZR Rifle had
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Chairman Church. Senator Hart.
Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Colby, in connection with
ZR Rifle, I think you testified or your associate said this was
1(B)
a multi-purpose operation, including stealing codes, and the
development of the capability of what euphemistically is called
executive action.
In your professional judgment, and with your history of
your background in the Agency, does it make any sense to you that
governments,
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a major operation, a major intelligence gathering operation of
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the sort of stealing codes, which I assume means from other
would be mounted under the direction of a
1(B)
man
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about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a background of
something like a soldier of fortune, and funded at the level,
I should say, of $7500 to $10,000?
1(B)
Does it not suggest to you that stealing codes was in
fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination
operation with unlimited, non-voucher financial capability?
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Mr. Colby. No, not that it is purely a cover.
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In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very successful tour
in Berlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel operation, which was
one of our major successful intelligence operations.
Mr. Harvey was a very colorful figure who had his lifestyle,
which is different than some others, but he had been very
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effective at that, and ry adventuresome
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signals intelligence and a very venturesome idea of that nature.
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ategory off
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1 He was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division staff.
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That staff's major function is
conduct the signals intelligence,
kwhich must be done in the clandestine service.
1(B)
It handles our efforts today to penetrate into foreig
coce rooms abroad, and things of that nature, and it involves
6 the breakin
7material
safes and things, all t
1(B)
plicated
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Now, the thing that puts it together with this "capability”
executive action, is the high degree of compartmentation of
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code-breaking, a steal
other words,
eration, obviouslyn
is to
et caught in it, it has all
1(B)
Fof very bad diplomatic implications, and so forth?
Therefore, there is a system of very sharp compartmentation of
the work of that particular group.
You also are dealing with some very venturesome people
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take the chance of getting caught.
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So, given you have a man who had some good technical
20 experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running a
program which is not too far off the requirements of high
compartmentation, and a very high risk kind of operation, and
therefore, for Mr. Bissel to have selected Harvey to carry out
this project seems to me that it is compatible that he could
e running code-breaking projects, Gode stealing proj,
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as well as this other activity.
one,
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Now, in the lifestyle at the time, not mentioning the second
this gets back into the recordkeeping that we have been
discussing.
It was not to be put on the record although to be
done. That is a perfectly proper hypothesis, it seems to me,
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but to say that the code stealing was only a cover I think is
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probably an unwarranted conclusion.
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Senator Hart of Colorado. What about the level of funding
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of $7,500 to $10,000?
Mr. Colby. That is not very much money for that kind of
an operation.
Senator Hart of Colorado. Precisely. I think it is too
little.
Mr. Colby. No. For a capability of that nature, it is
In other words, you use your own
largely a staff operation.
staff officers. You may hire an agent or something, but I don't
think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on
the figure one way or the other.
This might not have been the only such project. You know,
an assassination project would cost you more money than that,
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too.
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Senator Hart of Colorado.
Absolutely.
Mr. Colby. I find it hard to say that that is the only
amount of money involved. I think you get into a situation
where additional money would be put into either of those kinds
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Chairman Church.
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Before you do, would you just explain
exactly what the relationship between CIA and Giancana and
Maheu was because that is not clear in my mind.
Would you develop for the Committee that whole relationship?
Robert Maheu used to work for the
Mr. Breckinridge.
FBI and he resigned from the FBI and opened a private investiga-
tive firm here in Washington and CIA used him from time to
1 (B)
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time for certain kinds of support activities.
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Chairman Church. What kind of support activities?
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Mr. Breckinridge.
On one occasion he obtained a female
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companion
import
Leader.
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Chairman Church. What other kind of support?
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Mr. Breckinridge.
In the early days
and this becomes
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an embarrassment:
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As nearly as I can reconstruct, the people
who knew him decided to put him on a retainer in the Office
of Security, which they did for awhile, until he was so
successful he said he no longer needed the retainer, which he
didn't do much to earn. He later got involved representing
one of the Greek shipping interests and we were given the
results of some of the information that he obtained from that
where there was a fight between Niarchos and Onassis. We
think he may have had some involvement in another foreign
Leader'
companionship when he was in this country. I don't
have the details. I think we can probably reconstruct it for
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Mr. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion
we had.
Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and
we will conclude, and I would like to ask the Committee to stay
on for ten more minutes for an executive session.
Mr. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of
criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation.
In the middle of the book supplied to us by Mr. Breckinridge
earlier this week, there is a discussion about the Lumumba
operation, and the Agent Q. J. Win.
Now, is it a fact that Q. J. Win was the agent, or asset,
however you would refer to him, who apparently was considered
for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never took place;
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is that right?
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Mr. Colby. Yes,
sir.
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Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it accurate that Q. J. Win operated
in Europe trying to spot and assess individuals whom the Agency.
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could use in safecracking operations?
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Mr. Colby. This is what is reported, and it is quite
20 possible.
1(B)
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Mr. Breckinridge.
The record indicates that..
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Mr. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA
officers who first met Q. J. Win Luxembourg, weg
oversers to find safecrackers and document suppliers?
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Mr. Colby. Yes, that is what it says.
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