180-10110-10100
2025 RELEASE UNDER THE PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ASSASSINATION RECORDS ACT OF 1992
JFK Assassination System
Date:
10/20/20
Identification Form
Agency Information
AGENCY: HSCA
RECORD NUMBER:
180-10110-10100
RECORD SERIES:
SECURITY CLASSIFIED FILES
AGENCY FILE NUMBER:
125-JFK
Document Information
ORIGINATOR:
CIA
FROM:
TO:
TITLE:
00/00/0000
DATE:
PAGES:
1
SUBJECTS:
OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO
MEXICO
DOCUMENT TYPE:
CLASSIFICATION:
RESTRICTIONS:
CURRENT STATUS:
DATE OF LAST REVIEW:
OPENING CRITERIA:
REPORT
Unclassified
1A
Redact
01/01/2003
COMMENTS:
Box 4.
v9.1
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505
Page 1
Wich Danny get exact
+
المال
focumented visits.
SCENARIO
phone call
Edwards
prepared by Dan Hardway
CHRONOLOGY OF OSWALD'S VISITS TO THE SOVIET AND CUBAN EMBASSIES.
September 26, 1963
Thursday
September 27, 1963
Friday
Circa 10:30 A.M.
10:37 A.M.
circa 11:30 A.M.
68que
7e1try
Teltrap
Tel tapas
circa 12:15 P.M.
4:26
Hote
here
Azque
circa 12:45 A.M.
A man claiming to be Oswald vists the Cuban
TCHEREKEKEMEKEKBECKHARDTH::sys between 10:00 A.M. and 2:00 P.M.
The visit probably occurs around one o'clock.
"Oswald" is discribed as 5'6" tall, blond hair,
sunken cheeks, very thin, aquiline nose, very
straight eyebrows, approximately 35 years old
and wearing a light blue Prince of Wales suit.
He was said to look very cold with a hard face
and a penetrating cunning way of looking at you.
"Oswald" was seeking an intransit visa to Cuba
on his way to Russia. He displayed documents
that showed his membership in the Fair Play
for Cuba Committee and the American Communist
Party. He was told that he would have to
first obtain a visa to Russia before he could
be issued an intransit visa. He is also told
that he should return to the Cuban Embassy
with his passport and a copy of a photograph
in order to fill out the visa application.
"Oswald" calls the Soviet Military Attache (SMA)
with whom he speaks in Spanish. He tells the
SMA that he is looking for a visa to Odessa.
The SMA tells him to call the Consulate. "Oswald"
asks for directions to the Embassy and recieves
them.
"Oswald" calls the Soviet Consulate and asks to
speak to the Consul in Spanish. He is told that
the Consul is not in. He is told that he can
call back at 11:30. "Oswald" says that he is
looking for a visa to Odessa.
"Oswald" goes to the Russian Embassy where he
once again exhibits the documents he has already
shown the Cubans as well as other documents such
as his and Marina's marriage license. "Oswald"
discusses his situation with someone at the
Embassy and comes away with the understanding
that everything would be expeditiously handled.
Someone from the Soviet Embassy calls Azcue
whom he is aware of because of what "Oswald"
has told him, and tells him that they have to
get authorization from Moscow to grant him a
visa and that it will probably take four months.
"Oswald" returns to the Cuban Embassy with the
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 2
Page Two.
9/27/63
12:45 (cont'd)
Silvasey
5:00
1:25 P.M.
4:05 P.M.
4:26 P.M.
Night
NW. 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 3
Arque
Dunan
Tel typ
телгдо
て
photo and completes the visa application,
stating that he would like to leave in three
days. He asks Azcue about how long it will
take to get the visa. Azcue explains his
misconception to him, an argument results and
Azcue throws Oswald out. \puran feels sympathetic
to Oswald, gives him (her address, and promises w/C
to help in any way she can. She feels that
Oswald should have been granted the visa with
no problems and that Azcue's actions are wrong.
Oswald calls the Soviet Consulate in an attempt
to find out what has gone wrong with the arraing-
ment he thought he had. In Spanish, he asks for
the Consul. He is told that the Consul is out
and that he can be contacted between four and
five on Mondays and Fridays. This call may have
been from Duran's phone. If it was he then told
her that he could get hold of the Soviet he had
his deal with and would she be kind enough to
talk to him. She said that she would and to
come back at four o'clock. If the call was not
made then Oswald got this message to Silvia and
the same arraingments for Silvia's four o'clock
call were made.
Silvia Duran calls the Soviet Embassy. She
tells them the American citizen, the one who
wants a visa to Cuba in transit to Russia, is
there. She asks who he talked to at the Soviet
Embassy when she sent him there to get a Soviet
visa so he could get an intransit visa to Cuba.
She tells the official she is speaking with that
the man seeking the visa wants to know with whom
he spoke because he had been assured that there
would be no problem. The man at the Soviet
Embassy puts another man on the phone and Silvia
goes through it again. He tells her that her
call will be returned..
A Soviet Official returns Silvia's call. The
situation is explained to Silvia. She realizes
that she cannot give him a visa because of the
delay on the Soviet end and the fact that he
does not know anyone in Cuba. What does Silvia
tell Oswald who is still setting there waiting?
In light of subsequent events it was probably
something that would keep his hopes up.
Oswald goes to a party at Rubin Duran's with
Silvia and two American friends.. This may have
been, more likely was, the night of the 26th.
He is seen by Elena Garro de Paz.
night with Silvia.
He spends the
Page Three.
September 28, 1963
Saturday
circa 11:00 A.M.
11:51
circa 12:00
afternoon
September 29, 1963
Sunday Morning
Oswald is back at the Soviet Embassy bugging
them to expedite his visa. They send him back
to the Cuban Embassy to get an address.
Duran calls the Soviet Consulate and puts Oswald
on the phone. He tells them that he is returning
to the Soviet Embassy with the address.
Oswald returns to the Soviet Embassy and is
assured that a telegram will be sent and that
it will be handled as quickly as possible.
Oswald decides that he needs more help and
tracks down a revolutionary, pro-Castro Cuban
group on the campus of the University of Mexico.
Maybe he hopes that he can find someone who
will say they know him in Cuba. In any case,
he seeks some sort of assistance from these
Pro-Castroites. He spends the night with them.
Oswald spends the day with the Pro-Castro group.
Sunday Afternoon/
evening and night
September 30, 1963
Mondary
October 1, 1963
10:31 A.M.
Tuesday
10:45 A.M.
later or earlier
later or on the 2nd.
Wednesday
?
?
Note: the association with the Cuban group
could have been anytime between the afternoon.
of 9/28 and the afternoon of 9/30. Contreras
said that he met Oswald in the afternoon and
spent the rest of the day, that night and part
of the next day with him.
Oswald calls the Soviet Military Attache
inquiring about a telegram. He is refered
to the Consulate..
Oswald calls the consulate with the same inquiry
and learns that the telegram has been sent but
no reply has been received. He is discouraged.
Obyedkov hangs up on him.
:Oswald calls the man with whom he had made his
"arrangement" and discusses the assistance that
was promised him. He is dangled and the man
eventually hangs up on him.
Oswald leaves Mexico.
On or about
9/30/63
Monday
10/1/63
Goodpasture ties in 9/28
Soviet conversation re:
address.
10/7/63
10/8/63
10/10/63
10/16/63
10/18/63
this may have happened
MCS recieves a transcript in which Silvia
Duran discusses an American and his prob-
lem with a Soviet Counsel. Win Scott
writes "Can we identify?" on transcript.
Goodpasture notifies Flick that an Ameri-
can is apparently trying to get a visa”
and that the COS would like to ID. The
Cuban and Soviet monitors are asked to
notify Flick of any conversation involving
an american, or in English. ETC, HOWEVER,
Flick is notified by a monitor that there
is an English conversation on the Soviet
tap. Flick listens and hears the man
ID himself as Oswald. He pulls the tape
and marks it "urgent" and notifies
Goodpasture that they have an ID on
an American. The tape is delivered to
Tarasoff for immediate transcription.
It is recieved late this day or early on
the second by Goodpasture. Disposition
of tape unknown, could "urgent" tapes
have been routinely retained for longer
period? Goodpasture now has ID but does
not know for sure that it is the one that
Scott has asked about. The guy in the
9/27 conversation sounds real interesting
OR
but there is nothing in this conversation 910
that clearly connects. She discusses
reporting it with Manell. There is some
disagreement over whose responsiblity it
is to report. Either decesion is made, or
conflict continues until photos is checked.
Photos from 10/1, 10/2, 10/3, 10/4. (?)
are recieved in base from Soviet Embassy.
B. Manell drafts report cable. Goodpasture
adds paragraph 2.
(in interim: Goodpasture tries to ID
MMM photo? how?) HQ response recieved.
Descriptions don't match. Controversy in
station on whether Oswald's same. 9/2749/28
conversation tied in to LHO during this
DEFINATELY
week. by similarity of subTANTIVE CONTENT
OF CALZ AND CONVERSATION 
AND VOICE
COMPARISON.
Oswald "p" file opened.
by this time photo of MMM recieved at
Station. Goodpasture picks up on it.
This MMM photo one from Cubemb on 10/15.
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505
Page 5
10/21/63
10/15 MMM shown to penetration agents
by this time. What response? MCS
cables HQ asking for a photo of LHO.
For what purpose? Was it just to compare
to surveillance photos? Were they planning-
on showing to penatration agents? why?
note: quite a few people say interest
level was high--so what actions were
taken?
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505
Page 6
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
24 August 1978
011048
HSCA Interview of David Atlee Phillips at HSCA offices, 8/23/78, 1:20 to
4:35 P.M., by Dan Hardway, Charles Berk, and Gaeton Fonzi.
Mr. Phillips was reminded that the CIA omnibus release letter still
applied to our discussions and that he should feel free to answer our
questions in spite of any secrecy oath that he may have executed during
his employment with the CIA, He was asked if he remembered and under-
!!
stood the letter and if he wanted to review the letter again, Mr. Phillips
stated that he remembered the letter and did not think it necessary to
see the letter again.
1)
Mr. Phillips was asked about his activities in Mexico that related
to his job as Chief of Covert Action in the Mexico City Station from
1961 to 1963. Mr. Phillips was asked how many persons were in his
propoganda shop in Mexico City, He said that it was manned only by
himself, a case officer under his direction and a secretary. He later
added that there was also one other case officer under his direction who
worked under deep cover outside of the Embassy. Mr. Phillips stated that
from 1961 to 1963 he ran only about 6 or 7 operations or projects. He
added that there would have also been many "ad hoc" actions. Under
questioning, he stated that it is possible that he was responsible for
as many as 14 to 17 ongoing operations and 3 to 6 developmental stage
operations. Most of these operations were directed at the Cuban target
and "the great percentage of them had an anti-Cuban or anti-Soviet bias."
Mr. Phillips was asked about the handling of agents. He stated that
he himself handled "very very few" agents, "Usually I met with someone
1
who was working deep cover and they in turn would handle several agents.'
:5
Mr. Phillips did recall handling one agent personally, a radio-TV
""
broadcaster. He also said that he would often meet with other agents even
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 7
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Phillips, page 2.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
1,7
though he was not handling them on a day to day basis, He stated that at
all times he had at least one deep cover officer working outside of the
Embassy and that, sometimes, he had two such officers,
Mr. Phillips stated that he did have access, and did use in some of
his propoganda activities, agents who were located outside of Mexico.
Mr. Phillips also stated that he did use a few assets that he had developed
prior to his transfer to Mexico City; he specifically recalled a man
named SAYAS who had been a newspaperman in Cuba and went to work in
Mexico City, He said that while he had been a propoganda officer for
the JMARC operation he had used assets that he had developed during his
prior tour of duty in Hayana, Mr. Phillips said that such assets were
usually handled by him personally during the Bay of Pigs,
Mr. Phillips stated that during the Bay of Pigs operation he
travelled to Miami "fairly frequently; every 6 weeks, 3 weeks, 5 weeks,"
He stated that responsibility for propoganda operations were divided
between him and his subordinate in Miami, William Kent, When asked to
explain that division Mr. Phillips stated
4
Kent reported to my shop in Washington, He had day to day
contact with the groups we were supporting down there, the
student group and the doctors or whatever, and the people
involved in Radio Swan,
Phillips stated that Radio Swan was run out of Miami, through the
mechanism of the Gibralter Steamship Company,
He did say that he was
in contact with the agent who ran Radio Swan, He said that he felt uncom-
fortable naming than agent and suggested we ask the Agency for his identity,
Mr. Phillips stated that when he traveled to Miami he often went
};
to see the people he knew from Hayana, including those he was running
as agents himself, He would also, on occassion, 1 meet with agents whom
NW 50955
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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Phillips, page 3.
Bill Kent was running "if Bill Kent got to the point where he felt he
Sometimes he went down to Miami on a
would like a little weight,"
"trouble shooting" mission, as when problems developed with a commercial
radio station the Agency was funding,
Mr. Phillips stated that he had had no recent contact with Mr.
Kent relating to anything being done by this Committee. He did state
"
9
that, approximately a month ago when Mr. Kent retired from the CIA, he
received a call from Mr. Kent, He said that Mr. Kent said that he was
setting up an executive employment agency and had asked for Mr. Phillips
help in finding jobs for former employees of the agency as well as
referring people for specific skilled jobs. They did not discuss the
HSCA at all, according to Phillips,
Mr. Phillips stated that it would be accurate to state
that there were two "sets" of propoganda activities during
the Bay of Pigs; one that was run out of the Miami offices
coordinated by Bill Kent and a second set that he personnally
ran without coordinating with Mr. Kent. Most of Mr. Phillips
prior established assets were in the second set of propoganda
operations.
Mr. Phillips said that even after he became Chief of
Cuban Operations in Mexico City he still worked very closely
with the propoganda shop, and his successor as head of that
shop, James Flannery, in propoganda operations.
Mr. Phillips said that his "Cuban shop" covered the
activities of the Cuban Embassy and that a special group
covered the airport. He said that a good deal of time was
NW 50955
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COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Phillips, page 4.
spent looking for opportunities to recruit Cubans who came to
Mexico City. The shop also ran a debriefing center for Cubans
who left Cuba by way of Mexico. He also said that one of the
primary activities of the Cuban shop would have been to identi-
fy the DGI officers in the Cuban Embassy and their functions,
duties and assignments whenever possible. Mr. Phillips said
that he was still involved in propaganda activities at this
time specifically recalling a Mexican broadcaster whose radio
station could be heard in Cuba. Mr. Phillips pointed out that
he had been a close friend of Mr. Flannery's and that Mr.
Flannery was made Chief of Covert Action in Mexico on his,
Phillip's, recommendation.
Mr. Phillips' said that he had "quite good" relations
with Win Scott and that he reported directly to him as opposed
to reporting through the Deputy Chief of Station which would
have been the routine manner. Mr. Phillips stated that he thought
that Robert Shaw had been in charge of the Cuban photographic
surveillance operations and that they had two penetration
agents in the Cuban Embassy. He stated that he could not
remember the names of the penetration agents and was not sure
of the cryptonyms.
Mr. Phillips was asked why his name came up so infrequently
in a review of Agency documents of this period from Mexico
City. He said that his name should appear on any "formal
project" he had going, but that he "did like to delegate work."
He said that his name must be on many papers.
1
NW 50955
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ASHMITTEE SENSITIVE

Phillips, page 5.
"
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Mr. Phillips said that there was a CI responsibility in the
Cuban shop. "You always watch out for it, but there was no
formal program." He said, however, that "I never really under-
stood what CI was. Phillips said that there were some CIA
officers who made counter-intelligence their primary concern
during their entire careers but that he was not one of them.
He described the CI effectiveness of the Mexico City Station
as "average" and its Cuban section as "less than average.
1
Mr. Phillips stated that he was aware of the existence
of the Special Affairs Staff in Washington that dealt with
Cuban matters. He was also aware that the SAS had its own
counter-intelligence section. He recalled meeting the Chief
of that section, Hal SWENSON, on a trip to Washington. He
normal
also said that it would have been routine for Mr. Swenson to
have traveled to Mexico City on "routine trips" or special
cases. He said that he had probably seen Swenson in Mexico
but that he did not recall any specific meetings.
Mr. Phillips recalled that the Legat office of the U.S.
Embassy in Mexico was large; that it had 11 to 20 officers
assigned to it. He said that there was a close relationship
between the Agency station and the Legat office. He said
Lowed
hat P
that the Legat got "drop copies" of most reports. He said that
it would have been routine to advise the Legat of "interesting
cases" and that an American reporting to a foreign embassy
would have been such a case. He said that a local dissemination
would have definately been routine and that this liaison
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Phillips, page 6
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
NW 50955
relationship would have been at least partially responsible
for reporting such a visit to Headquarters,
Mr. Phillips was quéried about whether, in such a case,
it would have been routine for the Agency station to take any
action other than just reporting the information that had come
to its attention. Mr. Phillips said that it could have happened
in certain circumstances, such as if the contact looked as if
he had recruitment potential or was a serious security case.
In those instances it was possible that other actions would
be taken. Mr. Phillips remembers one such instance specifically
and pointed out that it is related in his book, Nightwatch,
on pp. 126-128. This is a story of an American military
officer who offered to spy for the Cubans and an operation
mounted against him by the Agency in Mexico. In response to
a direct question Mr. Phillips acknowledged that the Station
other than just reporting
could, and often did, take actions/in regard to Americans in
Mexico that were in contact with Soviet or Bloc Embassies
without a specific request from another interested agency; i.e.,
they often took investigative and operational action on their
own initiative. Mr. Phillips said that the reason that the
Station could do this was Mr. Scott's ranking (informal) in
the agency.
Mr. Phillips illustrated this point by saying
that when Mr. Scott returned to Washington to report he did
not go to the Chief of Western Hemisphere Division but directly
to either the DCI or DDP. He pointed out that Scott had been
a division chief himself prior to his assignment as Chief of
\ Station in Mexico.
DocId: 32263505 Page 12
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Phillips, page 7.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Mr. Phillips was asked if the CIA shared assets and
informants with the FBI in Mexico. He said that he did not
know of any such cases but there was coordination and liaison
with the Bureau on the surveillance operations.
Mr. Phillips acknowledged that one additional area in
which the Station and the FBI shared an interest was the
have
Mr.
colony of American expatriates in Mexico. He said that he
was not sure of who had the responsibility for that area in
the Station but that it may of been Ms. Ann Goodpasture.
Phillips stated that he was not aware of any Agency liaison
in Mexico City with either Army or Navy regarding counter-
intelligence or counter-espionage cases. He said that he had
never heard of any arguments that may have occured concerning
whose responsibility it was to report Oswald's initial contact
with the Soviet Embassy or about the extensiveness of the
Station's reporting after the assassination.
"Blonde,
Mr. Phillips does remember Viola June COBB.
flew an airplane, track record for hitting a lot of beds in
Cuba, had a twin sister involved in aviation.
That's what
comes to mind." He vaguely remembers messages or reports
from or about her coming out of his Cuban shop but he believes
that she was run out of Washington or Miami as an asset and
that someone from one of those two places would have regularly
come to Mexico to run her.
Mr. Phillips stated that he did not recall an officer
with a hair lip or who spoke with a lisp.
NW 50955
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Page 13
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Phillips, page 8.
Phillips stated that he did not know if Ms. Cobb was also
an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Phillips stated that he recalls three or four members of
the Warren Commission staff coming to Mexico. He said that
he may have chatted with them informally but he had no formal
dealings with them. He said that they spent most of their
time with Mr. Scott.
Mr. Phillips said that he first heard the name of Silvia
Duran about the time he arrived in Mexico, as soon as he started
reading the telephone tap transcripts. "Her name appeared time
#f
and time again. He added: "We had no interest in her. She
wasn't friendly with anyone." Mr. Phillips had previously
mentioned, in his discussion of the Cuban shop's interest in
recruiting agents, the name of Ambassador Lachuga and their
interest in pitching him. Mr. Phillips was shown Slawson's
memo concerning his trip to Mexico where Scott told him that
the CIA had a substantial prior interest in Duran because of
her affair with Lắchuga. Phillips seemed surprised and said
"No one let me in on this operation.' Mr. Phillips said that
"
it is possible that the Agency pitched Duran. "At one time
we pitched almost everyone at the Cuban Embassy.
"
She must
have been considered. Mr. Phillips said that it was possible
that she was not pitched because the station could not identify
any of her weaknesses. At this point Mr. Phillips was told
about the LITAMEL/9 reports on Duran that said that all that
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Phillips, page 9.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
all that would have to be done to recruit her was get a blonde,
blue eyed American in bed with the little "puta. Mr. Phillips
admitted that it sounded like she had at least been targeted
and that the station's interest was substantial and that the
weakness and means had been identified. He pointed out,
however, that targeting does not necessarily mean that she
had been pitched, or even if she was pitched, that she had
accepted the pitch. Mr. Phillips said that he was not aware'
that a pitch had been made.
"..
Phillips stated that Ms. Duran's 201 file should be
"very thick". He stated that a thin 201 file prior to the
assassination "would be very surprising". He said that a
name trace should come up with at least a lot of 3x5 cards
that predate the assassination.
Mr. Phillips stated that he saw Lachuga only three times
after he left Cuba: once on an airplane from Miami--"we just
nodded"--; once at the inauguration of Mexican President
Diaz Ordaz; and once when he was having lunch at a fancy
resturant near the American Embassy in Mexico. On the last
encounter Phillips said that he knew Lachuga was going to
be there and that he had specifically gone there to talk to
He said that Lachuga turned off all the advances he made.
Phillips was asked why the Agency had sent a cable to
Mexico after Ms. Duran's arrest saying "don't allow any
Americans to have contact with her."
him.
said: "Don't know.
can't guess why.
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 15
(paraphrase).
He
I can't tell you why they did that. I
He said that he was not aware that the
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Phillips, page 10.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Warren Commission staffers who were in Mexico wanted to talk
to Duran. He said that he knew Clarence BOONSTRA well, that
the last he heard he was in North Florida, but that he had
never discussed the assassination or Oswald with him.
Mr. Phillips said that he vaguely remembered that Win
Scott did have a safe in his office. He guessed that Scott
and his secretary would have been the only people who had
access to that saff. He said that Scott had had several
secretaries over a period and that he only remembers the first
name of one of them: Dottie. He said that he had no idea of
personally
what Scott kept in his safe. He said that when he was chief
of station in the Dominican Republic, Brazil and Venezuela,
he kept really "very sensitive" material in his safe in his
office. He assumes that the same would have been true of Mr.
Phillips offered the example that someone would call
and say that someone at the Embassy was a prostitute, he would
note that for the record in keep it in the private safe. He
guessed that the material in the safe would have been material
Scott generated himself. He said that memos of meetings with
the Mexican president in which sensitive topics were discussed
would have been a likely candidate for retention in Scott's
safe. He said that he does not know what happened to Scott's
safe after he died but that he has heard a vague story that
someone went out and found a lot of documents that Scott had
Scott.
kept.
Mr. Phillips stated that he thought that the Chief of
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
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Phillips, page 11.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
the DGI in Mexico was
a man named "LUNA.
"
Mr. Phillips was asked about the story in his book con-
cerning the DGI officer with the penchant for antique jewelry.
that appears at page 133. He said that he does not remember the
name of that person, but says he took some literary license
because he doesn't specifically recall if the person was, in
fact, a DGI officer. "Thank God my next book is fiction,"
he said.
Phillips was asked about the following DGI officers:
Orestes Guillermo Ruiz Perez--"vaguely familiar";
Rogelio Rodriguez Lopez--"Yes, familiar.";
Manual Vega--could have been Chief of DGI;
Luisa Calderĥ--"familiar";
Teresa Proenza--"definitely familiar";
Alfredo Mirabal--"familiar";
Eusebio Azcue--the consul, "to my knowledge he was not Cuban
intelligence."
Mr. Phillips was asked if Proenza was a CIA asset. He
said "The name is familiar but I don't recall the context."
He also could not remember if Luisa Calderon had been an asset..
He said: "I don't really remember the true names of the agents.
I never saw them or dealt with them." He stated that he could
not remember whether the Agency had ever pitched Ruiz but that
"there were several attempts to pitch intelligence types.
Mr. Phillips was shown Carlos Blanco's report of 28 June
1963. He stated that he had probably seen it previously but
does not remember it specifically. He said that the name
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
NW 50955 DocId: 32263505 Page 17
Phillips, page 12.
COMMITTEE SENSITIVE
Carlos Blanco had probably been made up for the purposes of
this one report. He said that he recalled the name of Luisa
Calderon a bit better after reading the document.
He said
that she may have been the asset who worked in the Embassy
for the Agency but he still could not be certain because he
could not recall the true names. He said that he did not
know if there would have been a "further report" and that, if
there was, it would not have necessarily been sent to Head-
quarters unless it had been of special interest.
Mr. Phillips was then shown the dispatch concerning
Luisa's sister. (CIA # 3715.) He said that he does not know
whether she was ever identified, contacted or used. He said
that he had never heard of a "domestic exploitation section"
and pointed out that the words were not capitalized.
Mr. Phillips stated that he did know Mr. Barney Hidalgo.
He does not recall him ever being in Mexico but said that it
was possible that Mr. Hidalgo could have been there and that
he would not have known about it. He said that he had on
occassion worked with Mr. Hidalgo. He said that. Hidalgo did
not have any executive talents, but he was involved in a lot
of operations. He said that Hidalgo had some problems: "I
don't want to say he was crazy, but I was always uncomfortable
around him." Mr. Phillips also recognized the cryptonym
AMMUG/1.
Mr. Phillips was shown CIA %'s 3665 and 3662 which are
reports from AMMUG that the Cubans believed that Calderon had
been recruited by the CIA and had, therefore, called her back
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to Cuba. Mr. Phillips said that that did not help him recall
that much about Calderon other than to make him think that
she was not a CIA agent "because she went back to Cuba.
Mr. Phillips stated that he was not aware that after the
assassination that Thomas Mann expressed a great deal of interest
in the Mexico City investigation. He also said that he did not
know why Mann would have been pressing for the arrest and
questioning of Luisa Calderon. He said that, in fact, he had
never known or heard that such was the case.
call.
He
Mr. Phillips was shown the transcript of the Calderon
(CIA 3717.) He said "I've seen this document before...
when we were reviewing things after the assassination."
was asked what the Mexico Station had done to follow up on
that conversation. He said that he could not recall that any-
thing was done other than forwarding the conversation to Head-
quarters. He said that he did not know what Headquarters had
done with it. He said that he could not remember being tasked
or his shop being tasked, with anything concerning this lead.
He said that he did not know if this conversation was given
to the WC by HQ but acknowledged that it was not shown to the
staff members who visited Mexico. He does not recall any specific
follow up regarding Calderon. He does not know why Calderon
was not arrested.
The section of Carlos Blanco's report concerning Teresa
Proenza was pointed out to Phillips. He said that he thought
the report may have been written by a person used by the station
that thought that everyone was a communist.
He said this may
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Phillips, page 14.
have been LIHUFF/1.
He said that the document did not help
his memory that much and that "I don't know of any reason why
she would be termed dangerous."
Phillips was shown the LITAMEL/9 contact report regarding
the firing of Teresa Proenza (CIA # 3714.). Mr. Phillips
stated that he dos not know why Teresa Proenza was fired. He
said that he did recognize the cryptonym AMROD. He said that
it was a disinformation operation and that it may have been
aimed, in part, at Teresa Proenza. He said that the person
in his book that he refers to as a cultural ataache with
a penchant for antique jewelry was not Teresa Proenza. He said
that he remembers that the person he refers to in that story
was definately a man. Phillips stuck adamantly to this contention.
Phillips stated that he does not recall that the Mexico
City Station ever developed any information that Oswald was in
contact with anyone else at the Cuban Embassy other than
Azcue and Duran. Mr. Phillips was shown the FBI report of an
interview with Ms. Proenza's brother. Mr. Phillips stated that
it did not ring any bells and he could not recall ever having
heard of such a thing. Mr. Phillips was also informed of the
FBI report from a CIA source that indicated that Oswald had
had contact with Proenza. He said that he had never heard of
it.
Mr. Phillips then stated that some things were coming
back to him. He asked if Proenza was a lesbian but he didn't
recall if that was a fact or part of the disinformation campaign
aimed at her.
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Phillips, page 15.
A The timing of the departures of Calderon and Proenza was
pointed out to Mr. Phillips as well as the indications that
they had met Oswald, had prior knowledge of the assassination,
the nominal reason regarding Proenza over the Raul Roa note.
He was asked if he knew if their recalls were connected and
if they
were connected with the assassination.
he did not know, maybe Calderon and Proenza had been lovers,
but that may have been part of the disinformation, he just
could not remember which, fact or fiction.
He said that
Mr. Phillips stated that it was very possible that HQ
Cuban
or JMWAVE could have recruited and run/agents in Mexico without
the knowledge of the Mexico Station. Phillips said: "I suppose
it would have been possible for an agent in Mexico City to
be run out of JMWAVE station in Miami without my knowledge,
but I would have been furious if I found out about it:. He
said that this may have even been "probable" in the case of a
n
"sensitive operatio," but he pointed out that anyone doing
that took the risk of crossing Win Scott who was close to both
the DCI and DDP. This lead Mr. Phillips to say that if that
was the case then the DDP, at least, would probably have
approved the WAVE use of an agent in Mexico. We took Mr.
Phillips through the documents on Ms. Calderon again and
asked him if this could have been an instance such as that
we were talking about. He said that it very well could have
been but that he had no knowledge that would indicate that that
was the case. He said that this was the kind of thing "they
might have asked Barney Hidalgo to do."
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Phillips agreed that
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Phillips, page 16.
CIA #3665 indicates that a pitch to Calderon was to be made
"If it was someone from the CIA
by someone outside of Mexico.
there would be something in her 201 files... but possibly it
could have been run out of a soft file." He said that her file
should be substantial. He said he could not explain why the
Calderon conversation would not have been in her 201 while it
was in Oswald's.
Mr. Phillips was informed of the testing of the impulse
camera beginning on September 27, 1963. He stated that he had
"no recollection" of the disposition of the photographs obtained
during that testing.
Mr. Phillips stated that if another cable (a third) was
sent to HQ regarding Oswald prior to the assassination that he
did not know about it.
Mr. Phillips was asked if there was a way for HQ and a
Station to communicate without the commo becoming part of the
permanent record. He stated that there was at least one way
that he knew of in addition to telephone and personal courier.
He said that it was technically possible to set up a "telcom"
system by persuading the cable operators to set it up on a
"back channel". He stated that such a system would work on a
question and answer sheme. He said "It has been done on occassion
but I don't recall it ever having been done in Mexico."
Phillips also stated that he did not believe that there had
Mr.
been any telephone communications concerning the assassination.
Refuting documents were not shown.
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Phillips, page 17.
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Mr. Phillips acknowledged that the FBI would manipulate
their files on employees of the CIA at the Agency's behest.
He also said that he would not be surprised if other catagories
of files could be manipulated, including internal CIA files.
Mr. Phillips was asked what factors would make him suspicious
of a file. He said that missing references, pages that had
half of them torn off, things like that would arouse his sus-
picion. He also listed a missing report from a sequentially
numbered series of reports as one thing that would arouse his
suspicion. In response to a direct question, Mr. Phillips said
that, if what we had told him about Ms. Duran's file was true,
then we could be fairly certain that her file had been "manip-
ulated."
Phillips said
Mr. Phillips was asked about James Angleton. He said:
"He didn't tell me anything about his operations. He kept
promising to tell me, but he never did." He said that Angleton
held his operation very tightly to his vest.
it is possible that J.C. King might have had some operations
outside of the JMARC structure but that they could not have
been funded without someone knowing about them. A division
chief does have access to operational and developmental funds
but, Phillips said, he has never heard of a discretionary fund
available to Division Chiefs. He said that the developmental
fund usually had a lot of money in it but that it eventually.
had to be accounted for. "I can't remember having such a fund
that I didn't account for through the DDP."
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A
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Phillips, page 18.
Mr. Phillips said that he did not participate, nor was
he aware of, in any campaign after the assassination to spread
misinformation about the death of Kennedy. He could not explain
why the misinformation that came from the Cuban groups and
individuals that tended to point to Castro involvement were
predominantly from assets that he had handled personally as
opposed to ones that had been ran out of the Miami station..
He said that he agreed that it was strange that the one peice
of evidence that tended to show at least DGI foreknowledge
was not pursued by his shop while disinformation from his former
assets occupied the attentions of investigators in that area.
Mr. Phillips stated that he did not know of any hard evidence
that existed in 1963 that pointed to Castro's involvement.
Mr. Phillips was asked about his operations in Havana,
specifically the names of the operations he was involved in,
when he worked there as a covert operative from 1958 to 1961.
He said he went to Cuba in the summer of 1958 after he had retired
from the Agency. He said the Agency heard he was setting up
his own public relations business there and asked him to
continue working for them, not on a staff status but on a
contract basis. Most of his work, he said, involved propaganda
operations for Latin American coundtries and not Cuba. He did
do what he termed "ad hoc" stuff as it came along and he did
develop propaganda news stories and editorial material that was
sent out to the provincial newspapers. He also specifically
recalled attending a meeting of a group of businessmen who
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Phillips, page 19.
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began talking about developing anti-Castro activity, but that group
never got off the ground because there was an informant in the
group and most of the participants were shortly afterwards
arrested.
When asked about his relationsip with Julio Lobo, he
became a bit upset and said he thought he had covered that
W
could
adequately in his deposition. He says as far as he can recall
he met Lobo only one time, perhaps it was even in Madrid and
not Havana, he doesn't recall, and he had no substantial dealings
with him. He wanted to know if Veciana's story about Bishop
is still being considered and if any decision about his being
Bishop had be conclusively arrived at. He said he doesn't
like living under the fear and tension of possibly being called
before the television cameras and having Veciana suddenly stand
up and point his finger at him and say that he is Bishop and that
he saw him with Oswald. Phillips was told by the interviewers
that they had no authority to disclose anything of substance
about our investigation to him. He asked that the interviewers
seek permission to let him know what was going on. He was told
that his request would be brought to high-level attention but
that a response of any kind at all could not be assured.
Phillips stated that he did not know Paul Bethel very
well. but it was not Bethel who introduced him to Lopez-Fresquet.
He said that that introduction was made by Bethel's boss,
Dick Cushing.
Phillips said that he had no additional recollections
on Jack Cogswell other than he remembered that he was an
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Phillips, page 20.
American businessman in Havana.
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Mr. Phillips stated that he "probably" did have some
contacts with someone or some persons associated with the Moa
Bay Mining Company, but he did not recall any specific names.
He also "must have" had some contact with Freeport Sulpher
people "I was fairly socially active at the time and the
name of the company is familiar to me."
Mr. Phillips said that he did not have many public relations
clients during that time. He could recall only the man who
owned Ambar Motors and the El Mundo newspaper. He also traded
for free French lessons at the Berlitz School although he can
not recall exactly what kind of public relations work he did
in return.
Phillips did not recall the name Darnell.
He said that he did know Wayne Smith, political attache
at the American Embassy, very well. He remembered him as a
big guy because they were in a little theatre group together
and in one play Phillips had to throw Smith out of a window.
Phillips said that he did not know Roberto Vale.
Phillips was asked about the procedure of traveling out of
He said he always traveled
the country on covert operations.
out under his true name and with his legitimate passport. He
would have other documentation on him for use with his alias
when he arrived in the country. He said that's the way it was
always done by every agent as far as he knew unless it was a
"very sensitive operation." He knew of no specific sensitive
operation in which a phoney passport was issued by the agency.
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3
Phillips, page 21.
"I don't know how that mechanism worked,'
that he had never had a phoney passport.
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" he said. He added
Mr. Phillips said that he had met McClendon (Gordon)
once when't they were in college. He said that he had not seen
him again until September of 1976 when he attended a Retired
Intelligence Officers meeting. Later McClendon had called him
and reminded him of an incident mentioned in Nightwatch involving
a shool day's episode and MecClendon told him that he was the
kid who picked him up in his car. As far as Phillips can recall,
he never had any contact with McClendon during the intervening
years. He never met McClendon at any time during 1963 in Dallas.
Phillips stated that he has no familiarity with the
Catherwood Foundation or Cummins Caterwood or E. Wharton Shober.
He was not specifically familiar with the Foundation's Cuban
Aid Relief operation in Miami.
Phillips said that the debriefing centers in Miami were under
the aegis of the CIA but the Agency only got the product from
them, they were actually run by another agency. He said that
they may have been ran by military intelligence. He said that
he had never met any of the supervisory personnel who ran those
centers.
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