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Transcript of Video Interview with Victor Gulenko
¶
Introduction
¶
This socionics interview with
Victor Gulenko
was
presented by Socionics Events USA. This interview was conducted in July
1. In the process, Victor Gulenko has answered several questions in
Russian about his work and thoughts on socionics, while a translator was
translating his words into English. This is the transcript of the
translation, starting with the questions and not including introduction.
Link to the original
video
.
Filler words have been omitted and some roundabout sentences
paraphrased, but with effort to retain all points made. Clarification of
potential translator misunderstandings by Russian speakers are welcome.
Interview Q & A
¶
1. Is type innate? If so, at what age does type become set and can be
observed? If not, what affects one’s typing?
The type is innate, but its energy and information are filled gradually.
You can observe the type from the day the child is born. Somehow, this
type you can already observe within the first years of child
development, and one chidl will be loud and whiny, another will be calm,
third will be careful and fearful, the fourth will be brave and climbs
everything and so on, so that means that there’s already a type in
somebody’s person, so you can observe it from very early age. I spend a
lot of time and energy to counsel children and their parents, and can
confirm that you can distinguish a child’s type at the age of 3 or 4,
but of course you will also need to ask a questions of the child and
parents, and not just by observing the behavior. How to observe the
type: type is the stable psychological structure of the person, and it
manifests itself via various reactions in our brain. Unfortunately, we
don’t have such a device to research how our brain works. We don’t have
some kind of constant attached X-ray to our brains to monitor such
spontaneous reactions, so you can instead observe the behavior of the
person to detect the type. This is also how you can detect a type: you
divide a group into two groups. For example extroverts and introverts
and you give them the same task. Distantly you observe the differences
of task implementation. Only with this contrast you can see the
difference clearly.
2. How do you take mental illness into account when typing a person?
What types are more susceptible for certain disorder? Is it possible for
a severe mental illness or a traumatic event to change someone’s type?
What about substance abuse and typing?
Type does not change throughout your life, whether disorders, stress,
or diseases. All that can change is the version of the type or the
functional condition. Meaning some functions can get suppressed or
others strengthened. If these changes are permanent and noticeable in
you, it just means your subtype has changed. This subtype change can
happen in one of two ways. The first way is called upgrade. It is when
you go to the higher level of the psychological step. For example, if
you are normalizing subtype you will become creative. The second way
is called downgrade, which is when you go to the lower level of the
psychological step, so if you are normalizing you will become
harmonizing. In the first situation normalizing subtype will go above
and beyond breaking norms, and in the second scenario, normalizing
will be suppressing those norms to adapt to the situation.
Clinical research shows accents within the type. There’s a connection
between certain functions and those accents. For example, accent
towards F which is extroverted sensing (Se) will lead to excess
ability, an accent towards R which is ethics of relationships (Fi) to
anxiety. However, the accent is not a pathology, not a disease, it is
only the excessive manifestation of the function, which brings a lot
of discomfort to someone’s life.
With over 30 years of experience of observing different types from
different angles, it has become clear that the central quadras that
are Beta and Gamma have more tendency to substance abuse. This is
because these quadras value extroverted sensing, which produces an
inclination towards tough competition. These types sometimes need some
sort of stimulant or substance to tolerate those raised loads on their
psyche of competition survival.
3. How does The Big 5 relate to neuroticism index?
The basic scale of The Big 5 can relate to socionics, as there are a lot
of similiarities. The first factor is extroversion, which correlates to
socionics extroversion. It is the first noticeable, “on the surface”
trait. The second factor is openness, which is when a person is open to
new things, which correlates to socionics intuition. The third factor is
conscientiousness, which relates to socionics rationality. The fourth
factor is agreeableness, which means that you will agree with society’s
standards, which correlates with socionics ethics, especially ethics of
relationships, which is introverted feeling. The last factor is
emotional stability, which was discovered later. It doesn’t relate to
Aushra or Jung’s dichotomies, but Gulenko discovered that it could
relate to a DCNH subtype dichotomy called terminality. It is is about
how well you adapt emotionally, and see your goals through to the end
without being swayed emotionally.
4. Does socionics consider individual human characteristics or only
model ones?
Yes, it does consider individual characteristics of the human being
through the functional profile. It shows what functions are stronger and
which are weaker in the person, in comparison to standard type, giving a
close-up view of the individual person, and not just the type.
5. Is there anything you’ve ever wondered about, in regards to it
correlating with socionics?
Of course, as an LII representative, Gulenko’s been interested in
complex systems, and questions such as: why some human societies live
one way and others another; why some people are more successful than
others; is there any mental device that affects the forms of social
organization; and where is our society going. With his structural logic
he’s also realized that in all of the variety of human characters, there
is one single system. Gulenko is always preoccupied with these kind of
thoughts, and he says sometimes they help, sometimes they overwhelm.
6. Are romance styles expressed as a general presence, aura, or vibe?
Are aggressors and infantiles, or any romance styles, distinguishable
from how they carry themselves, or their body language?
Yes, there are such scenarios, but at first you can’t see them,
because when you have a formal contact you never touch the core of
personality. However, those types of scenarios are expressed in more
concrete behavior when you move to a close distance of communication,
and you will feel them as a psychological aura or vibe around these
people. These scenarios will be generated by your first, or strong
function.
Here’s an example: the victim will generate a vibe of anxiety around
him - some sort of uncertainty and sometimes even a physical shake or
some fear that might be released through sweat, for example. The
aggressor will notice this immediately and it will be a massive signal
to the aggressor type. This kind of signal will attract aggressor to
the victim. Then the aggressor will carry out an act of some cruelty.
Not necessarily physical cruelty, but it could be some threat or
symbolic threat, or something along those lines. After that act, the
aggressor will feel pity for the person, and have an urge to want to
help the person. This is how they bond. The aggressor type will
generate a very powerful psychological vibe around him, and when you
get in his presence you will feel enormous amount of pressure, and
some sort of compression on yourself. You might like this or you might
not like it.
Passionate communication types will generate a very powerful emotional
field, which will attract cold-blooded type with their energy.
“Childlike” types generate a field of creativity. They demonstrate
childish behaviors of some sort, or childish risk. This type of
behavior will instinctively attract the caring types. It’s like
mother’s instinct that is drawn to a child that needs to be fed and
taken care of.
Don’t forget that every type will have a combination of two scenarios
of behavior happening at the same time [I think Gulenko was referring
to romance styles and the communication styles]. Which one is dominant
will depend on the individual type’s features, and how well your
functions are developed.
7. What are the most reliable population statistics you have found? Is
there a statistic broken down by quadra and type, and what is your
favorite subtype system and why?
Gulenko doesn’t collect statistics, so he can’t quote them, but he
knows some people who work with the statistics and he will speak of
this later on. Gulenko always gravitated towards live socionics and
not the numbers. As an explorer of nature, he researched real
behaviors of people and theoretically collected what he found out, and
that is why his school is called School of Humanitarian Socionics.
Gulenko’s been researching socionics for over 30 years. His
observations have shown what kind of types we see at the top of the
social pyramid. For example, among all famous people, such as
politicians, businessmen, actors, you can see a lot of representatives
of the central quadras. They have the advantage when it comes to
acquiring fame. The further up you go up the pyramid the less evenly
the types are dispersed [translator phrased this unclearly - that’s
how I interpreted it].
The first subtype system was proposed by Gulenko at the end of the
1980s, when socionics was in its infancy. He then only had two
subtypes: initial and terminal, and not four like he uses today. The
reason for creating four subtypes, is because Gulenko wanted to figure
out more differences among the same type, after noticing that four
people can be the same sociotype, but still different. After more
research and work, Gulenko discovered that two additional attributes
could be found within one type, and now he uses a four subtype system
called DNCH, which stands for Dominant, Creative, Normalizing, and
Harmonizing. The reason Gulenko came up with Normalizing and
Harmonizing, is because he discovered a subtype dichotomy of contact
and distance.
8. Any advice for personal growth [for LII]? What advice would you
give yourself as a 20-year-old concerning, love, work, weaknesses, and
strengths? Where do you find Hugos?
As a representative of being a Logical Intuitive Introtim, Gulenko can
give you advice to first develop your Fi, because without it you will
have some issues with realization in this life. LIIs that don’t
develop their Fi may appear autistic, a little bit.
LII has undervalued extroverted thinking. The suggestion of how to
deal with that is to act on your thoughts right away, otherwise it
will stay as a thought and a theory, rather than become an object, or
something useful in your life.
The third piece of advice for the LII is to trust your second
intuitive hunch. What Gulenko means by this, is that the LII will
first think of something and then intuition will help them with the
answer. The decision that intuition is telling you is still kind of
raw, so you need to go back to thinking mode, and see what intuition
tells you the second time. The second time your intuition will be
right, and your decision will be correct.
Last advice for LII is to use your intuition of opportunities as much
as you can. Risk things every once in a while. Without taking such
risks you will never gain a very valuable experience. In his life,
Gulenko took a lot of risks travelling, talking to a lot of people -
teaching them, meeting them. That helped him to gain that life
experience that he values today.
Recommendations for all types: you need to organize yourself in quadras,
but do not lock yourself in one. You will feel very comfortable within
your quadra, but in order to achieve something, to spin the wheel of
progress, and for this life to make sense you need to partner with the
quadra that is your strategic alliance. Alpha is partnered with Beta,
because both share common values and are called ascending ones. They
both generate a lot of ideas and energy. Gamma is with Delta. They are
both called descending ones, and are more about implementation.
Dualization is easier for those who are born in dual families. It
happens naturally for them. As far as finding your dual, it happens by
accident, because you and your dual don’t live in the same
environment. Dualization, as a process, typically happens when you
have a problem someone is helping you with, and you help them in
return. It is the mutual support and help for each other. Among those
people, when you’re receiving this kind of support and help, you feel
an energy and connection. If you feel this, then it is your dual. This
kind of mutual support leaves a great deal of emotional trace in you.
If you don’t have a problem of this sort that you need this help and
support with, and if you’re already living happily, you may not value
your dual as much as when you need a dual.
In order to really experience dualization, people need to group
themselves together and go on a camping trip, for example. There you
will start socializing with different people, especially your dual.
9. How can you apply socionics for your personal growth? Can you
improve any aspects of functions, and how? What functions have more
potential for personal growth?
Growth happens when you start interacting with others. To improve
certain functions of your own, first you need to gain a proper
understanding of the function you want to improve, from analysis to
the proper behavior. Then you need to spend as much time as you can
time with others who have this function as a strength. First, learn
and develop the function on your own, then go to an environment with a
lot of people who have this function to practice it. For example, if
you want to improve the function of ethics of emotion (Fe), you need
to go to a place with a lot of actors. Spend time around them, imitate
them, and maybe even participate in some sort of play. If you want to
improve your intuition of opportunities, you need to visit a lot of
different places. For example, where people generate a lot of ideas,
and they brainstorm. You need to participate in this kind of activity
with them.
The most potential for development are in the functions of your social
mission. This will be the first and the second priorities of your
type. However, sometimes it’s not possible to develop them due to an
unfavorable environment.
The function that will provide the greatest benefit to you if
developed will be the role, in the situation where there is a great
deal of uncertainty.
It is better not to touch your fourth function, because you will spend
a lot of energy on it, but there won’t be any satisfaction brought
back to you as a result. It is better to delegate that activity to
somebody else.
10. What is the basis of the energy model? And if there’s time, how do
you distinguish between subtypes in your new subtype system?
This is the most complex question, and requires a lot of knowledge in
socionics. The basis of the socionics model is a system of aimed
connections between psychological functions. They are chained together
and always directed, because there is a transfer in a particular
moment from one function into another in a certain direction. There
are only two kinds of directed relationships between socionics
objects, and they are asymmetrical. They are called supervision and
benefit.
If we connect functions through supervision relationships, we will
have Model A. Through supervision, the supervisee will receive the
information quicker. It is an asymmetrical relationship.
While supervision relationship connect you via an informational
transfer, the other asymmetrical relationship known as benefit, will
connect you via an energy transfer. This is how your benefactor
involves you in on an energy level into something.
Gulenko’s practice shows that people will group themselves into triads
or quads, according to their energy when they start solving a problem
as a group, and not talking about the issue. Benefit relationships
here play a big role. That’s how people connect to each other via
energy, because they want to achieve something. That’s when energetic
extroverts unite together, and the quiet introverts will be displaced.
The attribute of the extrovert and introvert dichotomy will play a
role in this type of behavior. For example, when a teacher asks a
classroom a question, and everyone knows the answer, the first people
to raise their hands will be the extroverts. This is how the division
happens, through this simple example. This particular dichotomy is the
basis of the energy model.
A very famous statistician, Stalana(?) performed an experiment by
testing thousands of people through tests and questionnaires. He found
out that people will show two strongest functions in their
personality, which are both either introverted or extroverted.
Although as we know, in socionics, in the first two functions one is
extroverted and one is introverted. Statistics show the same results
for your two weakest functions - they will be both either introverted
or extroverted. This experiment shows that there are two types of
functional models, the first one will be the informational model,
which is what you use when you have to process something, and the
second will be the energy model, which is what you use when you have
to act and use energy for something.
To distinguish subtypes, of course you can use tests that include the
additional dichotomies of initial/terminal and contact/distance.
Another way of distinguishing these subtypes, is when you can compare
this person to the 16 sociotypes as well as have an idea of each 4
subtypes in in your head. This means you have to have 64 types in your
head for reference. The best thing you can do, to distinguish
subtypes, is to get 4 people of the same type in a room together, and
ask them to solve a problem together. Through this working group, you
will see the difference in their roles. If the group is stable, you
will clearly see a leader - someone who takes charge, and this will be
the dominant type. You will also clearly see someone who offers
non-standard solutions, and starts generalizing ideas, this will be
the creative type. You will also see someone who will make sure that
everything is done, and that the group is not steering away from the
normal, standard course, and this is the normalizing type. Lastly,
will be someone who makes sure that communication is pleasant among
the group. Remember, that all this is within one type.
That’s the reason there are so many differences between socionics
schools.
For example, statistics show that a lot of LSIs occupy high level
positions. MBTI has similar statistics. You need to remember that LSI
that has the higher role and positions, will usually be the dominant
subtype, because it is easier for them to climb those steps of
societal hierarchy. A mistake one can make is when they don’t include
the subtype system when typing, and the LSI-dominant will have very
distinguished Ti function, and a lot of people who don’t know the
subtype system, will type this person as SLE, making the person an
extraverted type. That is a mistake.
It’s also very important to know, that even when there are duals, the
subtype relationhips make a big impact on dualization. If two duals
don’t correlate well in the subtype system, then dualization will be a
lot harder, or not possible. For example, if one dual is an initial
subtype, and the other terminal, these duals will not make it.
Group chat questions
¶
1. What has been the greatest change for Gulenko since when he started
writing about socionics?
He noticed he had great changes in his understanding of socionics. At
first, he had high expectations, and that thought if he typed two people
it would be easy to predict everything else, but he found out it’s not
that easy. The second thing he understood is that you can’t type a
person simply by what the person is saying to you. You have to pay
attention to non-verbal reactions of the person, how the person behaves,
and especially the way the person thinks and acts on certain things.
That will be important, when making a diagnosis, because he noticed that
when a person talks they just talk, but it’s not necessarily what they
think.
2. What is the relationship between the sociotype and 7 levels of
intelligences (logical, verbal, musical, kinesthetic, etc.)
There is a relationship between sociotypes and the seven levels of
intelligence. If you are born as an abstract thinker, then you will be
predisposed to those strengths of being a logical, mathematical, and
theoretical thinker. People who need to communicate effectively and
build connections will be social people like the extroverted, sensing
types, and feeling types. Humanitarians - ethical and intuitive types -
will be more predisposed to things like languages. If you are
intelligent, but more practical, and an applicant of your logic, you
will be good at management type logic, which can be good with things
like machinery.