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Kindred observations
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General comments
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novo (SEE)
: I don’t see many prospects for these relations. Each
partner inevitably hits the other’s most paintful function with their
creative one. No matter how you try, both sides suffer equally.
Externally such relationship may seem fine, but internally negative
attitude accumulates.
LIE-LSE
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Anna_27 (LIE)
: One of my co-workers and friends is my kindred
relation, TIM LSE. Since we only work in vicinity of each other, we
don’t stress each other too much. But one time we had to make a trip
together, and I almost went crazy feeling angry. I don’t tolerate her
well in large doses. There is mutual understanding over principles, but
from time to time there is also animosity and misunderstandings between
us. Kindreds. That says it all. We can unite and work together well
against an external threat (don’t touch our people), but between
ourselves we can also fight. The unity doesn’t last long. I would never
agree to live in the same apartment with her as I feel that she would
drive me crazy.
EII-ESI
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Margie (ESI)
: I haven’t been in close relationships with EIIs, but
as friends and co-workers - these relations feel very strained. My EII
friends are wonderful, very intelligent and kind people, but I
constantly have a feeling that my presence makes them tense (either I
pressure them somehow, or maybe it’s not very interesting for them to
be around me). Meanwhile, they won’t speak a word to me about this and
under any circumstance. They continue being nice and pretending that
everything is fine and we’re good friends. Our relations look much
better from the outside. The tension probably arises from contacts
made to painful functions - the EIIs try to avoid Se directness, and
instead try to Ne-talk around the problem and open up other options
before me. In my ESI mind this seems as if the EII is trying to make
me withdraw, to step back from what I’m doing.
When I had an EII boss at work, I could never tell whether I was doing
something wrong, or whether it was his problems. It was impossible to
receive clear, concrete instructions from him - “well may be this is
so, and so, and this, and that ..” - as a result, I often felt like I
was reinventing the wheel at work.
Gabriel (ESI)
: I have a friend of type EII, almost a classical
representative of this type. My own type is ESI. We have been close
friends for a year, and now we’re on the brink of a major conflict.
This is how I see things from my end:
- I don’t understand his hints and insinuations. I don’t understand
what he means. EII lacks in directness and never stops at one
conclusion.
- My EII friend wants me to discuss my feelings and relationships with
him, to openly tell him about everything, analyze it together with him
in great detail, which makes me feel nervous because I don’t like
having such conversations. I am very mistrustful and don’t like
talking about my personal life with other people. When somebody goes
around poking and prodding, and expects me to share what’s going on in
my life, my first thought is: “Why do they need this?” I open up when
I feel the desire to do so. But if somebody tries to “climb into my
soul”, all my internal doors slam shut and I immediately become
suspicious of the person.
- He is always willing to be there, to listen, to talk, to help. While
I am not always so responsive. Because of this, some of our friends
will practically “sit on his neck”, and right now I lean towards
believing that this is how he likes it. However, I feel uneasy when I
see that one person is expending himself without much reciprocity. I
try to teach our friends to act otherwise, but he undermines my
efforts with his all-encompassing kindness. Here our approaches
conflict.
- The EII will say admiring and supportive things to complete
strangers, and make general positive statements that don’t seem to
address any one person. This leaves me uncertain of my own personal
value to him.
- Especially problematic are situations when I need his support, while
he seemingly lends his support to everyone. He supports everybody, but
in actuality - nobody. If he openly told me “I’m not supporting you,
because I think you’re in the wrong” or “I’d like to help you, but I
cannot” - this I would understand. But his position is “I will
participate for everyone”, which I often interpret as a betrayal. He
often takes the middle ground, as if he is trying to mediate between
conflicting parties, which is upsetting for me when I’m one of these
parties. Instead clearly showing whom he is backing, he slightly props
everyone.
- Despite the complexity of the situation, this EII guy will try to
take up a middle position and doesn’t step aside. It is as if he
thinks himself a great psychologist who is working on untangling and
resolving all such difficult situations, by which he simply kills my
own efforts.
- I don’t feel like I need his help in some situations, yet he
persistently “inserts” himself into my personal life and affairs even
though I haven’t asked for this - sometimes he is overly intrusive.
I also tend to strain him. By my directness, sharpness, and who knows
what else because he keeps silent or says sweet things and pretends
like everything is fine between us. The result: tension and
misunderstandings. In general, the feeling that I get from this
interaction is that I always have to hide my claws and my “sharp
edges” and put on velvet gloves, which is difficult and isn’t me.
While he sincerely believes that I am just as cute and sweet as he is,
and treats me with even more gentleness. I don’t understand when he is
offended - and when he isn’t … I simply don’t understand what he is
doing!
BiJou (EII)
: Kindred relations are a mixed bag, perhaps because the
creative function that falls on kindred’s most painful spot is the most
conscious one in TIM’s model (base function as taken as something
granted, it’s not as sensitive). Thus, there is non-acceptance of the
person. My relationship with an ESI is good only if I respect that
individual. If not - there is immediate antipathy and dislike. Moreover,
I can almost always clearly explain what “bad traits” I see in them.
This isn’t the same around people of other TIMs - I may not completely
respect the person but somehow accept and tolerate them … For example
I stopped respecting an ESI colleague because while he was showing me
the ropes at a new job, he very arrogantly started nitpicking at the
width of tables in my report, and similar things. It was very
off-putting to me how he was trying to self-assert at my expense. Later,
I’ve also noticed that he attempts to shift his incomplete work onto the
shoulders of his co-workers in a rather sly way - he will try to
“saddle” them with his own workload by volitional pressure: “Julia! You
go and do this.” while he doesn’t have any rights nor authority to it. I
also considered him to be not very bright, yet self-important.
Apparently, I have annoyed him, too, by interrupting and disagreeing
with his narrow “moral” evaluations of other people by pointing out that
any action committed by a person has complicated motives and causes, or
sometimes by contradicting his ethical estimates by saying that I liked
a person that he disliked. Or perhaps I have annoyed him because I
rarely gave him definitive answers, and in general avoided his company,
almost ignored him. This is how things have unfolded between us. But
these are more rare cases. In general, my interactions with ESIs have
always been decent, although I’ve never been very close with a person of
this type. For the most part, I’ve met intelligent and worthy
representatives. Though, sometimes tensions can arise over some details,
even on the background of mutual respect; and this prevents us from
getting closer to one another.
IEI-ILI
¶
Darya Dyukareva (IEI):
Balzac and Esenin are not a pair. You’re
watching a beautiful movie - he poops on it. You’re admiring an autumn
landscape - he’ll for sure tell you that you’re so much like a rainbow.
For certain will tell about his plans on how I could be making more
money (for Yesenin, heh). You’ll never be his ideal. There will always
be many other people around you, and other beautiful women. Thus, go to
training, go to the gym, go parachute jumping, etc. and etc. in the end
there’s no result, a waste of time for nothing. Don’t get fooled by
ILI’s coldness and mystery. Underneath there isn’t anything else hiding
other than the same coldness and mystery. So it will be all your life.
For one person to love for two is difficult.
Ernest (ILI):
Don’t try it. At the beginning it’s charming and nice,
but later … Then, the ILI will have to command the IEI, while the ILI
doesn’t know how to do this (he himself is waiting for someone to
command him … SEE is needed). The IEI did not consider me to be a man.
I didn’t take her in by willpower. She thought I didn’t love her. Run
immediately from such relationships - this would be better for everyone.
Maria (IEI):
With ILI it was like in the crypt, with a perceptible
scent of decay. He has confused me in appearance for an SEE, proceeded
to charm and fascinate me, and started playing their favorite game of
“freeze - unfreeze” with my emotions, and then the true waspish
sarcastic ILI broke out … The degree of his biting remarks increased
accordingly to the increase in my patience - he was, as if, provoking me
to a scandal. Fine, if he had taunted me constructively, but he simply
practiced his wit on me. Well, I had enough after a month. I politely
put an end to it and sailed away.
Evelina (ILI):
The inactivity of IEIs didn’t especially worry me.
This is because I never fell for one. IEIs are too sincere, too open, at
the stage when it is absolutely unnecessary, i.e. when it’s needed to
charm and interest, that is, to play with wit, with your mind, while
they begin to bare their souls, or at least such was my impression. My
reaction to this - “what does he need from me?” They don’t keep
distance, and sometimes are too intrusive in their attempts to get some
emotional feedback. There is too much pathos in IEIs, which in itself
isn’t bad, and in a girl this can be charming, but for a guy this
doesn’t look manly, which negatively impacts the impressions created
during initial acquaintance. And, excuse me, the complaining and the
whining. This is also off-putting, as I don’t find a wish to help and
console a person who’s not very close to me. If the IEI starts
complaining, this is the last straw.
Lyudmila (IEI):
I have a friend of type ILI, and father-Balzac. With
my friend of type ILI we have lived together for half a year (rented an
apartment), but we personally never really got very close, there’s
always some distance, although I enjoy meeting up with her once every
couple weeks. With my father - total shutdown, it was very difficult to
live under the same roof with a complete stranger, and I always had a
feeling that the opinion of the first person he met on the street was
more important to him than mine.
Irina (IEI):
Relations with an ILI haven’t turned into sincere deep
friendship, but his intellectual capacity and philosophico-cynical
outlook on life have endlessly fascinated and captivated me. One of my
female acquaintances of type ILI is a remarkable person. She is wise and
sarcastic - anyone could wish to be like this. I sincerely admire her.
Irina (IEI):
Balzac is a quiet horror. At the beginning it seems:
What a charming and pleasant person. Wow - He’s so intelligent, and
interesting. Then you begin to communicate more closely and this ideal
shatters within a couple of months. His negatives would drive me crazy -
how is it possible for someone to be such a pessimist? His logic turned
out to be boring, and making decisions for himself he couldn’t accept.
Imagine what happens when the IEI has to decide for two people? At times
I enjoyed taking care of him, but I also wanted to be cared for. The
only positive moment of these relations was that I became more
appreciative of “black sensing” Se.
Cosy (IEI):
IEIs hate processes! Especially work-related ones. The
most important point for an IEI - is the result. I don’t see meaning in
activities that don’t have an end result in sight. While for ILIs, their
essence is that they like to converse about the process, the activity
itself: how to go about getting a job, how to earn money, how to
materially set up the whole country … Of course ILIs do value their
results, but when they start talking about it, everything again shifts
to the process. Why talk about this? This is obvious at an intuitive
level…
[note: Here, the difference in
Process/Result trait
of these two
types, their differing ways of processing information and starting on
a project, is evident.]
Cosy (IEI):
I don’t know about romantic relationships, but I had one
very close person of type ILI. When I read the discussion subtitle “what
to do that would be good for him”, I realized that all this time I have
been doing “what is good for both of us” but received no response. There
were no attempts from the other side, and it feels like I was alone in
trying. So there is that feeling with ILIs that you’re knocking on a
closed door, that they aren’t going to open for you even slightly. On
the other hand - I am that same closed door, while in a romantic couple
as least someone should be “an open window”. What has upset and
frustrated me in ILIs was a certain sense of fatality. There was a
feeling that he won’t fight for anything, but simply accept it as it is.
He won’t try to hold you, to keep you. If you want - be next to him,
don’t want - leave. I need to be sought, won over, sometimes I need some
harshness even aggression, some pressure, a drive. Don’t wait for this
from ILIs. They are democratic through and through (even not in the
sense of socionics), and their endurance and behavior in manner of “I’m
not holding you” eventually you begin to interpret as indifference.
friedice(ILI):
Once I was in the situation described above. I have
also told her: “if you want to - leave”. But my motives were different.
I felt insincerity in her. It was clear that she didn’t want to leave,
that she wanted something else, which she wouldn’t openly say. I took
her words as attempts at coarse manipulation and blackmail, which always
annoys me. Better leave now, than live in confinement. Thus, by mistake,
you can build additional walls with such words.
Related discussions
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Kindred relations discussions on PerC
Kindred relations discussions on 16t
Kindred relations discussions on Typoc
Kindred relations discussions on Reddit
Intertype Relations by Stratievskaya