1985-09-06 NSFRI - Plato - Cratylus - 386e-396b - Socrates' Name Shuttle: Function, Separation, and
Channel: Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society
Date: 06/03/2018

1985-09-06 NSFRI - Plato - Cratylus - 386e-396b - Socrates' Name Shuttle: Function, Separation, and Unification
Dialogue(s): cratylus Sections: 386e-396b Notes: What is interesting about a shuttle? What point is Socrates making through the idea of an instrument adapted for a specific purpose? What is significant about this? Why spend so much time on something that appears to be, on the surface, trivial? How is the word 'Nature' being used? READING STARTS: ~0:08mins — 386e Taylor translation of 386e How can you discover what essence naturally belongs to a thing? ~0:11mins Jowett translation of 386e How do you discover that relationship described by nature? Discussion contrasting the translations. We are not just talking about things, but also about actions. ~0:13mins READING CONTINUES: 386e / 387a ~0:16mins - Pierre remarks — then the argument may lead us to infer that names ought to be given according to a natural process and a proper instrument, not at our pleasure, this, and no other way, shall we name (be named?) a success. ~0:41mins 395d — READING PAUSED ~0:43mins Question raised; 389c — “So whenever its necessary that he make a shuttle for a light or heavy cloak, for linen, or for wool, or for any sort whatever. For all of these, he necessarily holds the Eidos of shuttle, to give from it this nature into each work. Then for each the best shuttle has naturally arisen” Discussion concerning translation of 389c. ~0:49mins Question raised: Your holding the Eidos, and giving this nature into each, could be, into each shuttle made, does that mean that the nature is the Eidos in the work? What constitutes the nature at that point? Also, it sounds very strange to say that the shuttle then will naturally come about. Pierre asks questions: Could anyone just make a shuttle? Could someone who is trained as a carpenter make a shuttle? What would he have to know more? Weaving? Or has to be told by a weaver? Would you agree, no carpenter could make 'a chair'? Better than that, would you agree he can't even make 'a copy'? He has to make 'a particular chair', he never makes 'a chair'. He can't make 'a shuttle', he has to make 'a particularly shuttle' for a particular kind of purpose. He holds the idea of a shuttle to give from it this nature of a shuttle and to each of a particular works, or each of its adaptations - then for each, its the best shuttle that has naturally arisen. Its gone through that process, then for each its the best that can be made and naturally. Group statement - “But the idea of the shuttle does not improve, only the 'each' — so there is no way to improve upon the idea, because the improvement is already built into the idea” ~0:54 mins Pierre asks: How can you understand anything, unless it discloses in some way its own nature? You don't have to worry about seeing essence, if you can see its proper function then you can ask how function is related to essence? But to see function means you grasp the idea. The idea that each thing has a proper function peculiar to it, then it has its own unique quality, that is Ousia, that's its unique possession, explains why the use of Ousia as wealth. It shows itself in its proper function. Discussion concerning man and its unique quality / function using the shuttle. Rather than describing man, this model shows how to discover the intelligibility that exists? There is a class of things called instruments and a proper function for each, which if understood, will not be used in the wrong way — the intelligibility of a thing. ~1:00 Discussion concerning the name 'mother'. ~1:04 395c — Discussion concerning 'mother' continues. ~1:09 - What does one gain from this? Intelligibility — things can be understood. ~1:11 Name does two things — teaches and separates the Ousia, distinguishes. Both separates it and functions as unifier. The image of the shuttle to the function of speech and naming in speech, that the shuttle separates the threads of the weaving it also pulls the thread behind it that ultimately creates the fabric. Functions the same as he makes distinctions, but ultimate function of his distinctions it to create a whole/one. Discussion using examples concerning name function idea (Eidos). ~1:20 Pierre asks - What can you bring to what it is you do that makes you a (hu)man? Unique quality or possession — what it is that it makes 'man' man. It can be represented in an idea, that would be the Eidos. Due to its uniqueness it does something in respect to it, therefore we can expect it to be exhibited — that is its function. Therefore a 'natural affinity' — a 'natural function'. ~1:25 — Question raised - Does that make a man by nature a dialectitian? Naturally so. Pierre remarks concerning Philosophical Midwifery - Forget the masks, how do they function? Then you can see they are not being what they 'should be' — preserving the Eidos despite the apparent/obvious function. ~1:30 — Pierre restates and further explores 389c — “So whenever its necessary that he make a