2012-11-23 NSFRI - Homer - Iliad (Book 9) - The Pathologos of Achilles
Channel: Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society
Date: 2018-09-22

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 2012-11-23 NSFRI - Homer - Iliad (Book 9) - The Pathologos of Achilles

{ 20121123NSFRI }

 Pierre guides participants in understanding the depth of Achilles’ problem and seeing how the Achaians judge the reasoning (the arguments, the logos) that each of them give in response to one another.Opening QuestionsWhat can we learn in Book 9?  Why is Book 9 there?  How do they (the Achaians) understand Achilles’ problem?  What do they offer to get him (Achilles) back into his combat or overcome his problem?  (Singularly important) How do these men judge one anothers’ plans and suggestions, or advice?Some Key QuestionsHe’s (Agamemnon) going to unfold what’s on his mind.  What brought him to wake up?Does his (Phoinix’s) early life at home with his parents parallel, or is it the model, of Achilles’ patoalogos?. . .Does he (Phoinix) give evidence that we can say he is he surrogate parent for Achilles?How is Phoinix’s past parallel to the dilemma that Achilles is in now?Does Phoinix’s mother play a role similar to Achilles’ mother?  Is the same language used in both cases?  Are they functioning in a similar way?What was his (Phoinix’s) problem? Did that problem then shape, play a role in shaping Achilles’ present?  We have a model.  Is he (Phoinix) laying it in front of him (Achilles)?To what degree does Phoinix recognize, “Hey, you’re not unusual.  There are a whole bunch of people just like you playing the same game“?  Does he (Phoinix) do that?Does he (Phoinix) then give a beautiful case that parallels Achilles’?  Does he (Phoinix) give another model, a second model?Does everyone try to get him (Phoinix) into battle?  Is he (Phoinix) in the same place as Achilles?Can you pull together all the stories and find parallels with Achilles?  Does Phoinix know it?  Does he line it up?  They know what a problem is?What is fundamentally then Achilles’ justification for playing the game he’s in, doing what he’s doing?  What’s his fundamental belief?How does he (Achilles) trump everyone in the book?  By what position, what view? In this statement (his justification for playing the game he’s playing), he’s different from everyone in the book.  What does he claim to know that puts him above everyone else and gives him the justification for holding the position that he has, feeling triumphant about it?What does this mean:  “Honored I am already by Zeus‘ justice“?Would you agree, we can find certain lines in the book where people say, “Well, you know what? We don’t know what Zeus is going to be doing.  But, we have to play our role“?  How does that compare with this (Achilles’ statement:  “Honored I am already by Zeus’ justice.“)?For Next TimeThe question is not whether that’s Zeus’ justice.  That’s his (Achilles’) understanding of his problem.  We will have to see whether that is the justice of Zeus.For Books 10 and 11:  Without their hero, how are they going to fight the war?  Are they going to retreat, or stay? What arguments? What is the role of the gods?Technical IssuesNone.Other ResourcesMap showing both Akhaians and Trojan forces and what cities they come fromOnline text of Homer's Iliad:Juan and Maria Balboa translation of Homer's IliadRichard Lattimore translation with the Greek textGreek only text of the IliadRobert Fitzgerald translationCredits[Thanks to Marty and Yoni for videotaping and editing/production, to StefanR for alternate title and cataloguing info, and to DarleneA for title and above notes.]More InfoPierre Grimes and Philosophical MidwiferyThe Noetic SocietyThe Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society collection here on archive.org.