2015-11-13 NSFRI Timaeus 17a-b,19b-20a,26e-30b - Providence, Mind, Bringing Order to the Cosmos
Channel: Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society
Date: 09/03/2018

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 Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society -- 2015-11-13 NSFRI Timaeus 17a-b,19b-20a,26e-30b - Providence, Mind, Bringing Order to the Cosmos
Dialogue(s): timaeus Chapters: plg Sections: 17a-b,19b-20a,26e-30b the radio mic was acting up that night, so audio is terrible until 0:07:00. even after that the sound is not great because we had to use the backup microphone on the stand. also, the video is blank from 0:01:42 - 0:02:42 reading from the loeb (can find it online at perseus ) or in hard-copy online ( amazon.com , abebooks.com , etc) the initial analogy (missing 4th) right at the beginning (17a) no fourth term. therefore a mean (i.e., 3-term) analogy does "yesterday" refer to the Republic? are there four prominent people in the republic? what is the significance of the missing person (analogically)? does the Critias follow the Timaeus? 19b,c, e, 20a the polity, state he generated 26e 27a,b 27c-29c invocation 29a: ταὐτὰ καὶ ὡσαύτως - Loeb translates this as "self-identical and uniform", but would be better to translate this as something along the lines of "Self according to Self", or "that which is in accordance with the Self", or "maintaining the Self", or "holds itself according to itself" so does the Self play a major element in the Timeaus or not? (as opposed to that which is becoming) as we read, where does the idea of the Self surface? 27d timeaus' speech 29e: ἑαυτῷ - Loeb translates as "He desired that all should be, so far as possible, like unto Himself.", but there is no "him", so should be translated as, "He desired that all should be, so far as possible, like unto Self." 30b - "Thus, then, in accordance with the likely account, we must declare that this Cosmos has verily come into existence as a Living Creature endowed with soul and reason owing to the providence of God ." the whole work is seen as nothing other coming from the providence of God. the idea of providence means that which in principle distributes a particular good to all things most appropriate to them to meet their most ultimate needs in the moment. that's providence. back at 29e.. the idea of "Likeness" plays a role in all Platonic thought. it allows an understanding of the relationship between Model and Copy. Likeness is therefore the supreme principle behind all creation. 30a - "For God desired that, so far as possible, all things should be good and nothing evil; wherefore, when He took over all that was visible, seeing that it was not in a state of rest but in a state of discordant and disorderly motion, He brought it into order out of disorder, deeming that the former state is in all ways better than the latter." therefore, there is no creation in the Timaeus. It is not a creation story, in Christian terms. instead, it is ordering from a pre-existing condition 30b Q: what is necessary then for this kind of creation of order to come into being? what are the steps? what is required? - you have to have a mind - because you have to see there is disorder before you can bring in order so mind is a condition for creation so this is a reflection based upon a perception, which is that there is a need: something needs to be done. because he is seeing disorder. so if you're going to create in the way this is talking about creation, you need to look for chaos, disorder. and you have to say, hey, man, i think it would be better to bring this into order. oh! but for what end? - you must have a Mind that appreciates Beauty and Good now He puts it into practice. he decides to use himSelf, The Self, as the model for creating he has to then turn upon himself (an Ousia), and use himself to make a likely copy of his Self to put order.. so he must think something of himself (of Self) so this function itself is Providence as a demiurgic architect, he uses Mind and Soul as tools. 30a,b - "He perceived that of such creatures as are by nature visible, none that is irrational will be more beautiful.." - but this is before they are created. so he now reflects on a condition that does not yet exist. he must already have that idea in his Mind, or that statement is not possible. if that's true there must be something pre-existing as a model that he can reflect upon before he uses it in this creation. therefore it is a rational God, who can reason about it before he acts. therefore the whole thing (the whole Cosmos) is a living, rational creature, endowed with Soul and Mind owing to the Providence (πρόνοιαν) of God. providence prior to intellect providence (pronoia) feminine barbara's comparison of the invocation to the gods at the before the timeaus, and proclus' invocation they have a different idea of a prayer than we do More info: http://noeticsociety.org