2018-06-15 NSFRI - Plato - Parmenides (132b-133d) - The Absurdities That Follow From The Theory of
Channel: Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society
Date: 2018-07-31

2018-06-15 NSFRI - Plato - Parmenides (132b-133d) - The Absurdities That Follow From The Theory of Forms

{ 20180615NSFRI }

 Dialogue(s): parmenides Chapters: plg Sections: 132b-133dSynopsisPierre leads us through the part of the Intro/Prologue (in Plato's dialogue, Parmenides) leading up to the Master-Slave argument.  The key issue here is all the problems that come with Socrates' view of ideas. Parmenides carefully follows Socrates' line of reasoning and shows Socrates the absurdities that follow from his view of ideas.(*)[(*) This view is often called Socrates' "Theory of Forms", in academic/modern/Euro-American philosopy. (Though 'form' is usually taken from the Greek, (εἴδη, eide, "ideas").).  And this academic (non-mystical, non-careful) philosophy quite incorrectly teaches that this is the basis for Platonic thinking -- when in fact, it shows quite plainly and in detail here that when Socrates was quite young, Parmenides his teacher, already took Socrates through the problems with it.  (And no where else in Platonic literature is such a view defended!) The reason that academics cannot read the Parmenides (and this section in particular), IMHO, is because they are completely unable to take a 'mystical' reading of Plato. And that is most likely because these academics themselves -- like the young Socrates himself here -- are stuck in the 5th hypothesis. --JS]Highlights132bThe shift to ideas are conceptions in the soulBefore, Soc was willing to say that in the realm of ideas, each one of them is divine (Justice, Beauty, Goodness, etc.)Each of these a state of mind.But is the Self a state of mind?Each one of these ideas could then be connected to SelfAnd each of these would have ousia (a dynamic of turning upon itself)Soc gets in all kinds of trouble with these, so he shifts to saying that ideas are (just) concepts in the soul.Start reading from "Then, O Parmenides, each one of these ideas is nothing more than a conception.." (so Self is in the Soul, along with concepts.)Are they all connected with Self, and therefore one?Socrates (132D): Where does he start his position? Where does it end? Does he introduce another idea of on top of that? (Yes). Do you see the way he bridges it? Do you see the consequences that follow from it?  Breaking it down:1. He's saying there are paradigms for other ideas. They are not merely intellections. They are models.2. He's also saying there are two classes of ideas: Models and those that participate of them.3. The lower class is a set of likenesses of the upper/paradigmatic ones.4. The Self functions in the soul through these (lower) ideas being assimilated in the paradigmatic/upper ones.Assimilation to the Self of the IdeasLikeness coming out of the fact that all the ideas (lower and upper) all share in 'Self'.0:30:25 Parmenides responds (132D, P27)the "like" refers to the Self0:31:54 P28pulling out the idea of like-NESS as an ideaNow he is working with the idea of Likeness, which are what Selves are like byNow we must add the idea of Self to the idea of Likeness0:36:30 P290:36:45 P30Example of an Infinite Regress on "Great" using Tree and mountains and particular greats vs greater idea of great, leading to an I.R...Same problem with "Likeness"/"Like": infinite regress0:41:00 P31,P32Do you see how that conclusion (at P32) follows?Same problem with higher Self and lesser Selves: Infinite RegressParmenides is walking Socrates through to the conclusions that Socrates' assumptions take him to. So this is a purging of Socrates' false notions. Proclus: This is midwifery, because Parmenides is midwifing Socrates of his false ideas.0:50:46 P33Conclusion: So the picture of ideas being separate and distinct from each other is false.Making distinctions vs saying these are separate (different). (Distinctions are about one wholeness)0:57:52 P34Now he is talking about THE Self, the IDEAL Self, the one above all of them.Is it possible you could meet someone who would say, "Nice idea (THE Self), and it might even exist in actuality, but one can never really KNOW the Self." (?)(Barbara: In the same sentence, he moved from Idea(l) Self to just Self.)What are we going to call the Idea/l Self, and is it different from THE Self?  (Socrates has not mentioned this so far in his thinking.)1:04:25 What does this do? Knocks Socrates out.  And it is the set-up for the (upcoming) "Master-Slave argument".And (Barbara) this is also pointing to the reason why he does not later become Parmenides partner in the dialogue (of the 9 hypotheses), and Aristoteles does.Bradley's question about Self over all of these ideas.1:07:40 P351:09:00 P36How many points is Parmenides making?  Number/name them.This (P36) assumes something that we (Moderns/Euro-Americans) do not agree with or do not think about (Ousia ( οὐσίαν)).What is he talking about with the word Ousia?The Platonic view includes Ousia. We need to add it to the diagram.What is going on (in the text) is that the Ousias of the Selves/Ideas above have a