Revolutionary War Pension and Bounty Land Warrant Application File S. 7,348, for Joseph Ramsey, Virginia
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[typed form, with handwritten responses]

[3-1776]

SERVICE
Va.

Ramsey, Joseph
or Ramsay 

NUMBER
S.7348
Va. half pay

CONTENTS
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[typed form, with handwritten responses]

[left side] Virginia 31,767
Joseph Ramsay, decd [deceased]
of Wythe Co. in the State Virginia of who was a Lieut. & Pri [private] in the Co. commanded by Captain Montgomery of the Regt. commanded by Col. Clark in the Viriginia line for 2 years.
Increased from $248.88

Inscribed on the Roll of Richmond, Va. at the rate of 300 Dollars 66 Cents per annum, to commence on the 4th day of March 1831. & end 16 June 1845, when he died.

Certificate of Pension issued the 6th day of Nov.r [November] 1846 -- and sent to Tho. Green, Richmond, Virg.a [Virginia]

Arrears to the 4th of ----
Semi=anl. [annual] allowance ending ----
$ ----
Increased from $248.88 and payable to his widow.

{Revolutionary Claim}
{Act June 7, 1832}

Recorded by D. G. Wood, Clerk
Book E.2. Vol. 6 ½ Page 31

[right side] Reported Let. to Tho Green Apl 8th ‘47
Same May 31/51
Hon. A. H. H. [Illegible] June 12, 1851
[written sideways] May 31, 1851
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34,919
Joseph Ramsay
Va.
Act 7 June ‘32

[written sideways] T.296 Jos. Ramsey
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State of Virginia} 
County of Wythe} S.S. 
On this 14th day of October 1839 personally appeared in open court before Christopher Brown Thomas Sanders Robert Sayers and William Groseclose the court of Wythe County now sitting, Joseph Ramsay a resident of the county & state aforesaid aged seventy eight years & ten months who being first duly sworn according to law, doth on his oath, make the following declaration, in order to obtain the benefit of the act of Congress passed June 7 1832.That he entered the service of the United States under the following named officers and served as herein stated. That he enlisted in the service of the State of Virginia at that time called the colonial service under the command of Captain John Montgomery in the January of 1778 in the county of Montgomery & state aforesaid where he then lived and marched to Harrodsburg in the State of Kentucky which was at that period a part of the State of Virginia this declarant remained there but a short time & then marched to the Falls of the Ohio where Louisville now stands, where the company to which he belonged joined the Illinois Regiment under the command of Col. George Rogers Clark. From there he marched with the Regiment to Illinois and was present at the taking of Kaskaskia [4 Jul 1778]. This declarant states that he does not recollect others of the field officers who commanded at that period than Major Bowman and Col Clark he having returned to [illegible] [guard?] and to Roseblack [sic: Gov. P F Rastel de Rocheblave] who was a prisoner taken at Kaskaskia under the command of Capt. Montgomery. This declarant remained in the county of Montgomery now a portion of which is Wythe County until the return of Capt Montgomery who went on to Richmond in Virginia in company with the Prisoner who was there promoted to the Rank of Colonel and directed by the Governor of Virginia who was Thomas Jefferson [Patrick Henry, succeeded by Jefferson on 1 June 1779] to raise a Regiment in Virginia. In the month of January 1779. this declarant was promoted to the rank of a Lieutenant in the company commanded by Captain Thomas Quirk [W5958] & attached to Colonel John Montgomerys Regiment. The regiment so commanded by Col. Montgomery marched in the Spring of 1779 to Illinois & was there commanded by Genl Clark who had been promoted from the rank of Colonel. After the regiment to which this declarant belonged reached Kaskaskia an expedition against Detroit was undertaken & the army under the command of Clark was
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ordered upon that Expedition. After they reached O post now Vincennes a counsel was held & the Expedition abandoned. After the failure of this expedition against Detroit, this declarant and one Captain Jesse Evans [S15826] were sent into the settlements as recruiting officers. Evans went to Richmond in Virginia for instructions whether they should enlist soldiers for the period of three years or during the war when Evans returned this declarant commenced his recruiting service & was stationed at the Lead Mines in the now county of Wythe. he continued this service until the fall of the year 1780 when the recruits were sent to join the Illinois Regiment. This Declarant conducted the recruits on their way to the west and meeting with General Clark in the Wilderness of Kentucky on the 1st of November 1780. he there resigned his commission as Lieutenant & returned home. 
Soon after his return he volunteered under the command of Colonel William Preston on an Expedition into North Carolina against the English Army under the command of Cornwallis. Shortly after their arrival they had an engagement with the English at Whitsels or Wittels Mills [Battle of Wetzell's Mill March 6, 1781] in the County of Guilford & another skirmish on the Allamance river [sic: Clapp’s Mill on Alamance Creek]. This declarant does not now remember the length of his services in this service, but he continued during the time Preston was on the Expedition. This declarant had until recently in his possession the pay rolls of this company to which he belonged under the command of Captain Quirk in the Illinois regiment & the commission or Instructions of the Governor to recruit for that service. He believes that his name is to be found in the Army Rolls for the State of Virginia. He further states that he does not know of anyone now living who can testify as to the length of time he served during the Revolutionary War, but he can prove that was in that service. This declarant further states that he was in the service from January 1778 regularly until the 1st of November 1780. being a period of near three years. That the term of his services under Preston was nearly equal to if not more than two months, but of this he is not certain. 
He hereby relinquishes every claim whatever to a pension or annuity except the present, and declares that his name is not on the pension Roll of the Agency of any State 
Sworn to & subscribed the day & year aforesaid 
[Signed] Joseph Ramsey
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We Casper Yost a clergyman residing in the County of Wythe and State of Virginia, and Joseph Hent residing in the county of Wythe & State of Virginia hereby certify that we are well acquainted with Joseph Ramsey who has subscribed & sworn to the foregoing declaration that we believe him to be 78 years & 10 months of age; that he is reputed & believed in the neighborhood where he resides to have been a soldier of the revolution and that we concur in that opinion. Sworn & subscribed the day & year aforesaid.
Casper Yost MG
Joseph Hent

And the said Court do hereby declare their opinion after the investigation of the matter, and after putting the interrogatories prescribed by the War Department that the above named applicant was a Revolutionary solder and served as he states. And the Court further certifies that it appears to them, that Casper Yost who has signed the proceeding certificates is a clergyman resident in the said County of Wythe & state of Virginia, and that Joseph Hent who has also signed the same is a resident in the County of Wythe & state of Virginia and is a credible person, and that their statement is entitled to credit.

I John P Mathews clerk of the county court for Wythe County and State of Virginia do hereby certify that the foregoing contains the original proceeding of the said court in the matter of the application of Joseph Ramsey for a pension. In testimony whereof I have hereunto set my hand & seal of office this 16th day of October 1839
JP Mathews Clk [Clerk]
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Mary Ann Ramsey
Virga [Virginia]

Act 7 July 38
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State of Virginia} 
Wythe County} SS
Be it known, that before me, Robert Sayers, a justice of the peace for the County and State aforesaid, personally appeared Mrs. Mary Ann Ramsey a resident of the said County and State, aged seventy one years, and made oath in due form of law, that she is the widow of Joseph Ramsey, the identical person who was a pensioner, and who is now dead and to whom a certificate of pension was issued under the act of Congress of the 7th June 1832, for a pension of two hundred and twenty five dollars and thirty three cents per annum as a Lieutenant in the Illinois Regiment in the Revolution. That the deceased pensioner resided in by Wythe County in the State of Virginia for the space of about eighty one years before his death, and that previous thereto he resided in Botetourt County in the State of Virginia (said County of Wythe having during a part of that space, constituted a part of Montgomery County. ) That the said Joseph Ramsey died in said County of Wythe on the 16th day of June 1845, leaving the affiant as his widow, that she does not now recollect the precise period of marriage with said Ramsey, but that their oldest child, Thomas Ramsey, is now in the fifty fourth year of his age - that she has been informed that the said Joseph Ramsey was entitled to an increase of pension and had made application therefor prior to his death, not only on account of a longer period of service then had at first been allowed and for a longer term of service in his higher rank, but for a restoration of that part of his pension which had been withheld on account of his supposed indebtedness to the Government of the United States. The affiant further states, that she has made
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application for the balance of pension due upon the certificate that was in the possession of the said Joseph Ramsey at the time of his death, viz; from the 4th March 1845 to the day of his death, as above stated, and that she has surrendered the certificate aforesaid at the pension office in Richmond Virginia, together with the requisite proof that her husband had died on the 16th day of June last and that she is his widow; to that proof and the evidence filed by her deceased husband she begs leave to refer, and now makes this application for the increase of pension so due and unpaid and for the restoration of that portion of the pension which was withheld from her husband, and also for the full benefit of the act of Congress of 7th July 1838 for the relief of the widows of Officers and soldiers of the war of the Revolution, and of any other act of Congress on the subject. 
Witness
Cloyd McGavock 
Mary A. [her X mark] Ramsey

Sworn to and subscribed before me, a justice of the peace for said County of Wythe; and I do hereby certify that I have been well acquainted with the said Joseph Ramsey and his wife, the said Mary Ann Ramsey, ever since my early childhood, I being now about fifty years of age, that I was also well acquainted with their oldest son, the said Thomas Ramsey, having been schoolmate, and that he was several years older than myself and I would suppose him to be about the age stated in the foregoing affidavit and I further certify that said Joseph Ramsey and his said wife were living together as husband and wife, when I first knew them and continued so to the death of said Joseph Ramsey, but that it was and still is the understanding of the neighbourhood
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hood, that they were not actually and legally married until after the birth of one or two of their children. that the period of their marriage the subscriber does not recollect, but he recollects hearing it spoken of and has no doubt that it took place since the year 1794 although they had lived together, as aforesaid before that period. Given under my hand this 9th August 1845. 
Robert Sayers J.P. 

State of Virginia}
Wythe County} towit 
At a Court held for by the County at the Court house on Monday 14. July 1845
Mary Ann Ramsey this day personally appeared in open Court, and presented a statement, and the original pension certificate of which said statement, embraces a copy, and sworn to and subscribed the same, and also signed and sealed a power of attorney to Lewis D Crenshaw & acknowledged the same to be her act and deed the word, “revolutionary" having been interlined therein before said sealing and acknowledgment. And the Court certify that it has been satisfactorily proven to them by the oath of respectable witnesses, that said Mary Ann Ramsey who has sworn to and subscribed the foregoing statement and has sealed and acknowledged the foregoing power of attorney, is the widow of Joseph Ramsey, who the Court and satisfied from their personal knowledge as well as the evidence of said witnesses, was the identical person named in the said original certificate, which is left in Court to be attached to said statement and power of attorney; and it has also been satisfactorily proven to the Court that said Ramsey died in this County on the 16th day of June 1845. 

State of Virginia}
Wythe County} towit: 
I John P. Mathews, Clerk of the County Court of the County of Wythe in the State of Virginia do hereby certify that the foregoing purporting to be an order of said Court of the
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14th July 1845, is a true copy from the records of the said Court, and I also certify that Robert Sayers, before whom the foregoing statement and petition was sworn to and subscribed by Mary Ann Ramsey on this day was at the time said petition was sworn to and subscribed and still is an acting Justice of the peace of said County of Wythe, duly commissioned, and that the foregoing Signature purporting to be his, is genuine. 
In testimony whereof I have hereunto Subscribed my name and affixed the seal of the said Court, this 9th day of August 1845. 
J. P. Mathews Clerk of the County Court of Wythe County 
By Andrew Thompson, DC
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Know all men by the presents that I Joseph Ramsey to hereby nominate constitute and appoint Samuel McCamant and John H. Price of the city of Richmond my true and lawful attorney with full power jointly and severally to demand and receive from the pension accounted officer of the Treasury of the United States any warrants for commutation pay in lien of half pay for life or any other emoluments that may be due to me in account of my Revolutionary services as a Lieutenant in the Virginia State Line and my said Attorney or either of them are by these presents fully authorized to adjust settle and account with such accounting officer any and all claims due to me as aforesaid, and in my name grant accepted and acquittance for the same and to do all other acts needful or necessary to be done to the complete execution of the promises hereby satisfying and confirming all that my said Attorney or either of them may do by virtue of these presents the said power to be available - Given unto my hand and seal this 10th day of December 1833 
Joseph Ramsey {seal}

State of Virginia Wyth County, SS
Personally appeared before me the subscriber a Justice of the Peace in and for said County Joseph Ramsey signed to the foregoing Power of Attorney and acknowledged the same to be his voluntary act and deed 
Given under my hand this 10 day December 1833 
Robert Sayers

State of Virginia Wythe County SS 
I John P. Mathews Click of the County Court for said County do hereby certify that Robt Sayers whose name is subscribed to the foregoing certificate is a magistrate as above, and that the said signatures purporting to be his are genuine 
In Testimony whereof I have hereunto subscribed my name and affixed my seal of office this 11th day December in the year 1833
J. P. Mathews Clk [Clerk]
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State of Virginia Wythe County SS 
I John P. Mathews Click of the County Court for said County do hereby certify that Robt Sayers whose name is subscribed to the foregoing certificate is a magistrate as above, and that the said signatures purporting to be his are genuine 
In Testimony whereof I have hereunto subscribed my name and affixed my seal of office this 11th day December in the year 1833
J. P. Mathews Clk [Clerk]

State of Virginia}
Wythe County SS} Personally came before me a Justice of the Peace in and for said County Robert English Senr. [R.3354] and made oath in due form of law that he has been acquainted with Joseph Ramsey in said County for the space of 52 or 56 years, that the said Ramsey was an Ensign and officer & a Lieutenant in a regiment commonly called the Illinois Regiment commanded by Col. John Montgomery that this affiant served as a private in a company commanded by Thomas Quirk belonging to the Same Regiment and was well acquainted with sd [said] Ramsey while in service before he entered it and ever since.--
Robert [his X mark] English
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Sworn to and subscribed before me a Justice of the Peace this 12 day of February 1834 
Stephen Eaton JP

State of Virginia 
Wythe County ss
I John P. Mathews Clerk of the County Court of said County do hereby certify that Stephen Eaton whose name is subscribed to the certificate on the opposite page is and was at the date thereof an acting Justice of the peace for said County, duly commissioned and sworn and that full faith and credit are justly due to all his official acts as such and further this the signature aforenamed purporting to be his is genuine
In Testimony whereof I have hereunto subscribed my name and affixed the seal of said County Court this 19th day of February 1834 
JP Mathews Clk [Clerk]
By A. B. More D.C.
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Treasury Department
Regular Office
18 June 1834

I do certify the a foregoing, to be true transcripts from then on file of Record in this office.

S Street
Reg
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[typed form, with handwritten responses]

RECORD DIVISION.    3-525
S.7348 DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
BUREAU OF PENSIONS,
Washington, D. C.,          , 19  

In reply to your request of [blank], received [blank] for a statement of the military history of Joseph Ramsey or Ramsay a soldier of the REVOLUTIONARY WAR, you will find below the desired information as contained in his [crossed out - (or his widow’s)] application for pension on file in this Bureau. 

[column headings: DATES OF ENLISTMENT OR APPOINTMENT. LENGTH OF SERVICE. RANK. OFFICERS UNDER WHOM SERVICE WAS RENDERED. Captain. Colonel. STATE.
Jan. 1778 Jan 1779 Pvt John Montgomery [Captain] Geo. Rogers Clarke [Colonel] Va.
Jan. 1 1779 to Nov. 1 1780 Lieut. Thos. Quirk [Captain] John Montgomery [Colonel]
Feb. 1781 2 mos. Wm. Preston [Colonel]

Battles engaged in, Kaskaskia, Whitsells Mills, Alamance
Residence of soldier at enlistment, he enl. in Montgomery Co.
Date of application for pension, Oct 14 1839, His claim was allowed
Residence at date of application, Wythe Co. Va.
Age at date of application, 78 yrs & 10 mos.
Remarks: He died in Wythe Co. Va. June 16 1845 leaving a widow Mary Ann who was 71 yrs. old. They had children only name stated being Thomas.

Very Respectfully,
Commissioner
4043b5m3-09 1-2
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[circular stamp] WYTHEVILLE JUN 15 Va
[stamped] FREE
Col. J. L. Edwards
Comr [Commissioner] of Pensions
Washington City D.C.

[written sideways] 20 June 1845 Jos. Ramsey
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Wytheville Va. June 14th 1845. 
Dear Sir,
I learn that the Agent for paying pensions in Richmond refuses to pay to L. D. Crenshaw, of that city, Attorney in fact of Joseph Ramsey, the amount due Mr. Ramsey for his pension for the half year ending 4th March past, upon the ground, that an order had been given, some time previous to pay to no one except Mr. Points, the Marshal. Mr. Ramsey having been relieved from the decree ag’t. [against] him, Price & McCamant, prior to 4th March, I presume there can be no desire longer, with the proper officers of the Government, to restrict Mr. Ramsey to the appointment of the Marshal to receive his pension, and they will cheerfully allow him to consult economy & his convenience in selecting an Atty. To get his semiannual payment through Mr. Points will cost him some $30— or $40— but to get it through Mr. Crenshaw will cost him nothing but the postage incurred. 
I have been appointed Mr. Ramsey’s Atty in fact (as the letters of Atty. laid before you, before this time by Mr. Crenshaw) to endeavor to procure
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an increase of his pension equal to the length of his service and the fact of my being his Atty. induces me to take the liberty to address you this note to ask that you will instruct the Agent in Richmond to pay Mr. Ramsey’s half yearly payment to Mr. Crenshaw if the papers are in form &c. That payment will, of course be deducted from what would be received by Mr. Ramsey, if an increase shall be allowed. The old man needs the money, & I hope the amount will be paid to Mr. Crenshaw. I now write at the instance of the Deputy Marshal, Mr. Robert Gibborey, to whom Mr. Ramsey desires to pay a part of the amount for some advances made to him by Mr. Gibborey to buy the little necessaries of life. 
with the highest respect
Your mo. Obt. Servt. [Most Obedient Servant]
Thos. J. Boyd
Page 20

Office of the Solicitor of the Treasury
April 15, 1845. 

Sir 

I have received your letter of the 14th inst. requesting to be furnished with a statement of the Judgment in the Western District of Virginia, against Joseph Ramsey, a Revolutionary officer, and the several payments made thereon by said Ramsey, and in compliance with your request, have to state: 
That it appears from the Reports of the U States Attorney for the Western District of Virginia to this Office, that Judgment was rendered against Joseph Ramsey et. al. at September Term, 1839, of the District Court for said District, for $7658.96, with interest from 12th March,1834, till paid, & $153 24/100 costs; and that Execution issued upon the said Judgment, under which the Marshal of the said Western District of Virginia, has collected the following sums and accounted for the same to the Treasury, viz: 
Deposited to the credit of the Treasurer of the U States, Nov. 28, 1840. $1835.40 
D[itt]o Dec. 21,1840. 84.66 
Do March 15,1844 2300.— 
Do July 27, 1841 84.— 
Total cash collected and paid into the Treasury $4304.06
The receipts or Certificates of the depositories in which the above sums were deposited to the credit of the Treasurer of the United States were transmitted to your office; and the Third Auditor advised this
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office by letter dated 19th May, 1842, that he had adjusted the account of said Ramsey, and after crediting him with the said payments amounting to $4304.18, there remained a balance due from him to the United States, exclusion of interest and costs, the sum of $3354.78.
It is proper to state in addition to the above, that Washington G. Singleton, Esq. the Attorney charged with the prosecution of this suit presented to this office in March 1840, an account against the United States for special services in its preparation for trial, amounting to $1000. this account was transmitted by W. Birchard, then Solicitor of the Treasury, on the 13th March 1840, to the Secretary of War for allowance, which letter was returned to Mr. Birchard, on the 13th March 1840, with the following endorsement by the Secretary of War. “The amount charged by Mr. Singleton for his expenses in the transaction has been allowed, and will be deducted from the sum recovered and now in the Marshal’s hands”– signed J. R. P., and at the foot of the account of Mr. Singleton, for $1000. which was returned with Mr. Birchard’s letter, is appended the approval of the Secretary in the words “Allowed J. R. P.” On the 14th of March 1840, Mr. Birchard addressed a letter to James Points, Esq. Marshal of the Western District of Virginia, directing him to pay to Mr. Singleton the sum of $1000, thus allowed him by the Secretary out of his collections on this execution and transmit his receipt to this office for the same, and on the 20th March, 1842 ,the marshal enclosed to my predecessor the receipt of Mr. Singleton for the said sum of one thousand dollars, which receipt bears date the 4th May,1840 believing that it is proper in the adjustment of the account
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of Mr. Ramsey, that you should have the facts before you, I send the original correspondence in relation to them. When you shall have made such use of it as you may deem necessary and proper, please return the originals to this Office.
The papers enclosed are 
1. Letter from Mr. Birchard to Mr. Poinsett, Secretary of War, dated 13th March, 1840, with account of Mr. Singleton and original endorsements of allowance by the Secretary. 
2nd. Copy of letter from Mr. Birchard to James Points, Marshal, dated 14th March,1840, directing him to pay the amount out of his collections. 
3rd. Letter from James Points, Marshal, dated March 28th, 1842, enclosing receipt of Mr. Singleton for said sum of $1000. Receipt dated May 4, 1840. 

I am, with great respect
Your obdt Servt [Obedient Servant]
T. Barton
Solicitor of the Treasury

J. L. Edwards, Esq, 
Commissioner of Pensions
Washington, D.C.
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[typed form, with handwritten responses]

WAR DEPARTMENT. 
REVOLUTIONARY CLAIM. 
I certify that in conformity with the law of the United States, of the 7th June, 1832, Joseph Ramsay, decd [deceased] who was a private and a Lieut. is entitled to a pension at the rate of $248.88 per ann. beg. [beginning] on the 4 March 1831 and endg [ending] on the 16 June 1845, the day of his death; which will be paid on the production of the proper voucher to Mary Ann Ramsay, his widow, after having deducted the amount already paid. 
This pension is increased from $225.33 per annum. [crossed out - is entitled to receive dollars and cents per annum, during his natural life, commencing on the 4th March 1831 and payable semi-annually, on the 4th of March and 4th of September, in every year.] 

To be paid at Richmond Va} 

Given at the War Office of the United States, this 23d day of December one thousand eight hundred and forty five – 

Secretary of War.

Examined and} 
Countersigned.} 

Commissioner of Pensions.
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1038.
Page 25

F. A. Dickens Esq. 

[written sideways] [Illegible] 6 March 1834 103
Page 26

Pension Off
March 6 ‘34

Sir
There is no pension of the state of Va. named Joseph Ramsay either under the act of ’18 or ’37 – there is a Joel Ramsy who is pensioned for service in the N. Carolina Line. 
Mo resptfy [most respectfully]
Yr. friend &c
Geo. Wm. Crump

F. A. Dickens esq.
Page 27

Richmond 18th Feb. 1847.
Col. J. L. Edwards 
Comm of Pensions 
Sir. 
The application of Mrs. Mary Ann Ramsay, widow of Joseph Ramsay of Va., for an increase of the pension due & unpaid, at the time of his death, contained her application also for the balance of pension, undrawn at the time of his death. - I am instructed to ask your attention again, to this last claim - which is for the amount of Lieut. Ramsay’s pension, under act of 7th June 1832, that was withheld from him in consequence of the Judgment of the U.S. against him. Mrs. Ramsay contends 1st That the pension could not legally be withheld on account of his indebtedness to the Government - 2nd That the delivery of the Pension Certificate to the U. S. Marshall with directions that the money should not go into Lieut. Ramsay hands, but might be applied in part satisfaction of the Judgment, was no payment to said Ramsay & 3rd - that said pension, not having been paid to Mr. Ramsay became hers at his death, regardless of all transfers or assignments, by will or otherwise in his life time. Under the Pension law, no assignment or transfer of an pension before it is actually in hand, has any legal validity. This pension was actually withheld from Joseph Ramsay, on account of his debt to the Govt. - as no payment was made to him, the pension undrawn became hers at his death. Being indebted to the Govt: suppose he had not asked for a pension, inasmuch as he was willing to let the one debt offset the other - it is clear - such an intention on his part, would not bear her claim at the time of his death 
It is equally clear, it seems to me, if, for any reason, the pension were unpaid at the time of his death, her right becomes complete. Instead of having been paid to him, it was withheld as a set off - or credit. 
For the facility of the accounts, the form of a Receipt
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by the Marshall was gone through-- let the substance of the transaction was, the U. S. refused to pay the pension to him became she had a claim against him. 
The actions of the different public officers of the Govt. are to regarded as her acts. The collection by one of them, from another of them - the transfer of the money from one pocket into the other was no payment to Ramsay.
The directions from the Department prohibited any payment of the Person to him. Whatever might be due the U. States was collectable by execution against Ramsay or his sureties - but the widow claims it not under her husband but under the Pension law.
Mr. Butlers opinion of 27 June 1836 was that Pensions could not applied to debts.
Yet in this case, the Govt: issued orders to the pension agent at Richd [Richmond], to pay the pension certificate “to Jas. Points, (Marshall of the W. District), & to no other person -.” This fact was endorsed on the papers by the agent at Richd. This was a portion order, not to pay Ramsay.
I enclose a copy of a letter to me of 6 May 1845, from Th. J. Boyd, as containing a forcible argument on the point. 
The Section of Pension act 7 June 1832. was intended, to secure a personal benefit to the pensioner - & its spirit prohibits the [service?] or an officer here with or without his consent of the pensioner to old debts whether due the Govt. or individuals. In this case the Pension certificate was put into the hand of the Marshall, with express orders that he should collect the pension & apply it to the Judgment - all continued being complying prohibited to said Ransay. It was in [Illegible] no payment of the pension by the Govt. and that it was the property of his widow.
I am yr. Obt. Servt. 
Thomas Green
Page 29

Office of the Solicitor 
of the Treasury 
December 28. 1840 

Sir, 
I have received from the Marshal of the Western District of Virginia and herewith inclose [enclose] you the receipt of the Collector of Customs at Richmond Va. for Eighty four 66/100 Dollars, collected by him in part of a Judgement the U. State vs Joseph Ramsay & others. 
Very respectfully 
Yours
M Birchard
Solicitor of the Treasury 

To James L. Edwards Esq 
Commissioner of Pensions
Page 30

S. 252 1. Mary R. 
May 16. 1840. 
Pension office.
Jas L Edwards
I think this has been [distributed?]
Page 31

Office of the Solicitor of the Treasury 
May 15 - 1840 

Sir,
Enclosed is a letter with its enclosures received from the Commissioner of Pensions relative to the Pension of Joseph Ramsey amounting to about $2000.
My object is to apply this money with his consent in satisfaction of the judgment obtained by the U. States against him. With the Government applying not for money out of the Treasury but for the liquidation of a demand against it by satisfying in part a judgment in favor of the U States against the amount. I can conceive of no legal objection to the course proposed and think that any reason for withholding the money must be unsound. 
May I request you to examine the papers and give the proper directions as on an appeal from the Commissioner decision, for I feel confident it would not be in the power of the Department to resist the application of the money as now ought to be made should a bill in chancery be filed by Ramsey for that purpose. 
Please return the papers after examination. 

Very respectfully, yours
M Birchard
Solicitor of the Treasury
Hon: J. R. Poinsett 
Sec. of War.
Page 32

Ho of Reps. May 22nd 1840 

Sir
Will you inform me how much is due to Joseph Ramsey of Wythe Co Va, under the act of the 7th of June 1832; and also how much land has been allowed him, not yet carried into grant, in consequence of an alleged fraud, in the provocation and allowance of a claim for commutation in his name. 
You are aware that a suit has been [Illegible] in the Western District of Va., as Ranney and his agents, (McCamant and Price) to receive back the sum which the agents obtained. It is admitted that Ramsey, was entitled to a pension under the act to which I have referred, though not to commutation, and I wish to ascertain what is justly due Ramsey, both in money and land,
Page 33

in order if necessary to have act passed to authorise [authorize] or set-off in favor of an injured old man, who has been made the innocent victim of others. 
Will you also inform me whether or not the government is not indebted to the voluntary disclosures of Ramsey, for an discovery of the fraud committed in the prosecution of the claim in his name, and any other facts which it may be in your power to communicate, watching the conduct of Ramsey in the premises.
Your early compliance will much oblige 
Your friend 
G Hopkins
Page 34

[faint seal] 
J. L. Edwards Esq.
Pension Office
Page 35

Washington Febry [February] 23rd 1844

J. L. Edwards Esq.
Commissioner of Pensions

Sir:
I request that you will furnish me with a copy of Joseph Ramsay’s declaration for a pension filed in the early part of the year 1834.
Respectfully yours
Geo. W. Hopkins
Page 36

Office of the Solicitor 
of the Treasury 
April 14, 1841

Sir,
I have received, and herewith enclose you, the receipt of the Collector at Richmond Va. for Eighty four dollars, collected by the Marshal of the Western District of Virginia in the [sev’t?] U. States in Joseph Ramsay & others.
Very respectfully,
Yours,
B Penrose
Sect. of the Treasury

To
Jas. L. Edwards Esq.
Comr [Commissioner] of Pensions
Washington City
Page 37

Mar 19 1841

Joseph Ramsay decd [deceased] Va.
Act 7 June 32
increased
7 m 20 pri
16 – 28 – Lt.
248.88 to 16 June 1845 to Mary Ann Ramsay widow – deducting payments within that time at the rate $225.33 pr. ann.

Hon. G. W. Hopkins
H R
Page 38

Office of the Solicitor 
of the Treasury 
March 18, 1841

Sir,
I have received from the Marshal of the Western District of Virginia, and herewith enclose you the receipt of the Collector at Richmond Va. for Two thousand three hundred dollars, an amount of a judgement against Joseph Ramsey & others for moneys improperly drawn from the Treasury for Revolutionary services
Very respectfully,
Yours,
M Birchard
Solicitor of the Treasury

To
James L. Edwards Esq.
Commissioner of Pensions
Washington D. C.
Page 39

Free
Geo. W. Hopkins
[stamped] FREE
Col. J. L. Edwards
Com of Pensions
War Dept.

[circular stamp] WASHINGTON DC JUN 9
[written sideways] June 10, 1842, Jos. Ramsey
Hon G W Hopkins HR
Page 40

Ho of Reps. June 9th 1842

Col JL Edwards
Commissioner of Pensions

Sir
You will do me a favor to inform me how much remains due to the United States, from Joseph Ramsy of Wythe County Virginia, upon a decree obtained of him, Samuel McCamant and Price in the District Court at Wythe Courthouse some years ago. It is admitted that Ramsey is entitled to a pension under the Act of the 7th June 1842. My object is to ascertain how much that now amounts to – what expenses are incurred in its collection and application in payment of the decree? Who receives it? Where it is paid – whether a certificate has now been issued in Ramseys favor for that pension. If so, who has it? How much has been paid from other means upon the decree. I wish in favor, a full amt detailed statement showing the amount and date of the decree, and each sum paid upon it, and by whom and from what funds, if the both facts can be ascertained
Your friend
Geo W Hopkins

[written sideways] I may as well [Illegible] you that I have understood, that the Marshall, of the Western district of Va., is allowed $100 for going to Richmond to receive J. Ramsey’s pension, and for applying it to the claim.
Page 41

Staunton Nov. 13. 1840 

Sir,
I enclose to you the power of Attorney from Joseph Ramsey to me to draw his Pension from the 4th March last until the 4th Sept with a request that it may be made payable to my order, which will save the expence [expense] of a trip to Richmond to collect, and yet can, and will be applied as was understood, in part discharge of a Judgement in favour [favor] of the U. S. in. s.d [said] Ramsey. 
This will not only be an accommodation to myself but a saving of the expence to this old man.
Very Respectfully 
Your obedient Servant
James Point

James L. Edwards Esq. 
Commissioner of Pensions
Page 42

[typed form, with handwritten responses]

Payment to be made at Richmond by James Caskin Agent for paying Pensioners in the Agency of Virginia

Recorded in the Pension Office, in Book E. Vol. 6 ½ Page 31 by D. G. Wood Clerk,

Duplicate
Page 43

Washington City Feb 7th 1846 

Sir,
I have received a letter from Col Thomas J Boyd of Wythe County Virginia, to whom the Pension certificate of Mrs. Ramsey, widow of Joseph Ramsey late of that county was transmitted. He thinks the allowance is less than it should be, and insists that as Mr. Ramsey was entitled to an increase of pension, the sum allowed to his widow ought to be larger than that mentioned in the certificate. He states from his recollection of the evidence found in the record of Joseph Ramseys case, that it is shown that Ramsey was certainly entitled as an officer to 22 months service, and as private, two months more, making altogether two years, which he thinks entitled him to something more than $300 per annum.
Was any part of the pension, of Ramsey, accruing after the passage of the bill for his relief against the judgment of the United States, retained by the Government and appropriated as a credit upon that judgment?
Col Boyd also desires me to call your attention to the application of Mrs Ramsey for a Pension under the act of 1838. He contends that a reasonable construction of the law, would give the five year pension to the widow. He states what from the tradition of the country, I am satisfied is true, that at the time when Ramsey and his wife first cohabited together as man and wife, in a then remote western settlement, constantly liable to Indian invasion, that they would have to travel from 100 to two hundred miles, in order to obtain a marriage license, and as that cohabitation continued in all the relations of the married life, and was followed by an actual celebration of the marriage ceremony in due form and under due authority, by which the
Page 44

issues born prior to the marriage were legitimated, that an equitable construction of the law, entitles the widow also, to succeed to the rights of her husband. If this is the first case of the kind which has been submitted for adjudication, it claims I think, your very earnest examination, for I feel quite confident that the facts will turn out in evidence to be such as I have indicated. By the law and adjudications of Virginia, the children born before the marriage are legitimated, and succeed to all the rights of those born after the marriage.
Col Boyd is a gentleman of high character, and as he is entitled to great respect, and entertains very strong impressions on the general points suggested in my letter, I will esteem it a personal favor if you will bestow upon them some reflection, and give me the results of your examination.

Very truly yours
Geo W Hopkins
Page 45

W.767
Page 46

[typed form, with handwritten responses]

WAR DEPARTMENT. 

Revolutionary Claim. 

I certify that, in conformity with the law of the United States of the 7th June, 1832, the pension of Joseph Ramsay, dec’d [deceased] of Virginia --  who was a Liuet. & private & pensioned at 248.88/100 per an. is now increased to – Three hundred dollars and Sixty Six cents per annum, during his natural life, commencing on the 4th of March, 1831, and payable semi-annually on the 4th of March, and 4th of September, in every year, ending 16th June 1845, when he died, and payable to his widow Mary Ann Ramsay, after deducting all former payments}

GIVEN at the War Office of the United States, this Sixth day of Nov.r [November] one thousand eight hundred and forty-Six.

Secretary of War.

Examined and Countersigned.} 

Commissioner of Pensions.

Duplicate
Page 47

Washington 15 May 1837

James E Heath Esq.
Commissioner of Pensions.

Sir, 

I beg leave to call your attention to the statements in my letter of 18 Feb. 1847, on behalf of the claim of Mrs. May Ann Ramsay, widow of Joseph Ramsay, for the balance of pension due him at the time of his death, under the Act of 7th June 1832.
Joseph Ramsay was a Pensioner, under that act [of 7 Jun 1832] – but became indebted to the U. States, in another transaction which had no relation whatever to the pension laws. In that other transaction, his agents were charged and convicted of a fraud, by which he became legally responsible for money they obtained from the U. States, and applied to their own uses. And altho’ [although] the court decided, he had committed no fraud and the various reports from your office to members of Congress, expressed the conviction that he had been the victim, of the frauds of others, in which he did not participate, – and altho Congress released him by special act, from the legal liability aforesaid, – reserving their right, nevertheless, to make the money, out of the alleged fraudulent agents, yet the Pension due under the act of 7 June 1832, is with-held from his widow, in order to diminish the balance, due in that other transaction by his agents.
Is this consistent with the spirit of the Pension act of 7th June 1832? That Joseph Ramsay was a Lieutenant, entitled to a pension under that act is admitted. The 3rd section of that act, provides: “and the pay hereby allowed shall not be, in any way transferable or liable to attachment, levy, or seizure, by any legal process whatever, but shall inure wholly to the personal benefit of the officer, non-commissioned office Musicians or soldier, entitled to the same.”
It was intended for the decent support of the recipient, whose past services entitled him to the public bounty, without any reference to his condition as debtor or creditor.
Page 48

But the act of Congress of 25 January 1828 was still in favor – that act was “that no money hereafter appropriated, shall to gain to any person, for his compensation, who is an arrears to the United States, until such person shall have accounted for and paid unto the treasury, all seems for which he may be liable.” This act related to “distrusting Agents” and all other debtors of the Govt. who were receiving salaries, or other money, for compensation; and was constructed to apply to Pensioners. Hence the supplemental act of 20 May 1836 – that the act of 25 January 1828 “Shall not be construed to authorize the pension of any pensioner of the United States, to be withheld.”
It was brief and summary – and shows the intention of Congress was, as the Attorney General stated, that – “Pensions are given to maintain, decently, a person entitled to public bounty, for past services, and have no reference, whatever, to any present relation between the Government and the beneficiary.”
In Capt. Vernon’s case, Mr. Butler, as Sec of War, on 13 March 1837, decided that a pension could not be withheld for a debt due to the United States – and that altho [although] a large over-payment had been, by mistake, made to Capt. V., yet it should not be deducted from the subsequent installments of pension – altho it was one & the same account current in which the mistake had occurred - 
Mr. Butler, at atto: Genl, had, previously, viz: on 27 June 1836, given his opinion – that the act of 20 May 1836, had placed “the claims & rights of pensioners, on precisely the same footing, as if the act of 25 Jany 1828 had never been passed” – and that all money withheld from pensioners, under the construction, heretofore, given to the law, should be refunded.
In the case of James Palmer, a pensioner at $80 under act of 7 June 1832
Page 49

who was found in 1837 to have been entitled to only $47.33. the question was could his pension be stopped till the excess was refunded. 
Mr. Legare as Atto Gen. gave his opinion in the case 2 July 1842 recommended the practice under Mr. Butler decision should not be changed - and Mr. Spencer on the 5 July 1842, directed the pension should not be withheld 
Mr. Legan admits the inclination of his mind, was rather against the previous decision & practice-- but concluded not to change that practice - the Secretary acts accordingly & this we have the concerning testimony of both officers (by the payment of the claim) as to what was the practice now finally settled. 
It may not harness to remark – Mr. Legan was mistaken in supposing the act of 25 Jany 1828 related “to defalcations in disbursing officers” “only” - The title of the act shows it referred to them "and for other purposes” - and the very words of the proviso to the act show it relates to all salaried officers. 
The terms of enactment relate to all debtors who are in receipt of money “for compensation” from the U. States.
That act covered the whole ground of the Common law, so far as related to claims for compensation, and that act is totally repealed, so far as pensioners of the U.S. are concerned. That pensioners were acknowledged, as coming within the class of claimants “for compensation” the act of 20 May 1836, duly shows - or it would not have been passed. 
It relates to any pensioner, whatever, of pensioners of the U.S. If pensioners were claimants “for compensation” - so were the officers of the Va. State line who were claiming their Half-pay under act of 5 July 1832 for compensation of their revolutionary service the settlement of which
Page 50

the United States assumed by that act. And if in the act of 30 May 1836, in repealing the prohibitory act of 1828, was a mandate to pay Joseph Ramsey.
It is worthy to remark that his claim of the United States against Ramsay was a collateral demand. It had us commission with the pension, no mor than if the obligation had existed 50 or 60 years ago. Whether for a defalcation or fraud of any other description, or failure of any kind to the U. S.
If mistakes will not justify the withholding a pension to rectify errors in former payments of the same transaction or account current, how can  collateral demand be brought in as an effort to a pension?
But it may be said, the debt due by Ramsey cogenerated in a fraud upon the U.S. and that correlated the difference between his & other case of over-payment.
Mr. Ramsey might safely admit the principle, as no one pretends that Joseph Ramsay perpetrated any fraud on the Govt: – He was the first to communicate the facts to the Govt. and to enquire how it was that so large a sum had been paid to him – it is admitted by the Court, which gave a decree against him, – by the Department and the congress that Ramsay had committed no fraud. Will it be contended that because others committed a fraud in his name, that he shall be put in the degraded catalogue of fellows & made to shar their punishment? As long as there was a [Illegible] between them he could not complain at being made to share their condemnation but the moment it is admitted he did not participate in their guilt to become emancipated from the contagion, and while
Page 51

(5)

he may still be held liable is the liability secondarily for their act, it is the liability as for a common debt freed from the guilt of fraud, and confessedly no set-off to the pension - surely it will not be contended that Joseph Ramsay, when exonerated as he has been from all participation in the fraud in fact, shall still be held as more culpable and thereby be put in a worse condition, than Capt. Vernon or Jas. Palmer who had each drawn upon their own affidavits & the evidence they filed nearly double as much as they were entitled to receive!
But it is submitted that if Ramsey had by participating in a fraud 10-20 or 50 years ago in a collateral matter of compensation obtained money from the U. S. it would be no set-off to his pension confessedly due - The opinions of the atto. Genl have not gone that far. They have decided cases, not suspected of fraud and an inference may be drawn, that in cases of fraud their opinions might to different - but they have not said so - now have they intimated that a collateral demand, even if it originated in fraud could have off-set to the Pension under act 7 June ‘32.
Whatever the common law may have been, in authorizing a set-off to a pension that law could not apply to the pension under the act of 1832, as that act expressly stated the pension should inure to the personal benefit of the officer and not be liable to any kind of legal process. The power of Congress so to limit its County, cannot be denied, nor could its intention have been more explicitly declared. Besides the act of 25 Jany 1828, went at least as far as the Common law could have gone & thereby superseded it in the cases to which it extended, Yet this law, it was declared in the act of 20 May 1836 should not be construed to extend to any pensioner.
Page 52

(6)

To say this general expression of any pensioner means such pensioners only as were not indebted by fraudulent acts, is legislation & not a judicial or executive act the act.
The act of 20 May 1836 exonerates all pensioners, in as mandating terms as could be framed.
But it may be said, the pension certificate was actually issued and applied in part of the Judgment & it would be paying a second time if a new certificate were now issued.
I will not repeat the argument in my letter of 18 Feb 1847 on this point, but beg leave to refer to it. I think it is conclusive. 
1st that no certificate was ever delivered to Ramsay 
2. that the Department expressly ordered, it should not be delivered but might be credited against the Judgement.
3rd that Joseph Ramsay had no authority or control over the certificate so as to transfer or assign it - &
4th That unless Jo. Ramsay had actually collected the money he had no authority to deprive his widow of it by will or otherwise. The claiming it, under the Pension act of 1832.
Again it is said Congress in releasing Lt. Ramsay from all further liability had sanctioned the application of the pension in part payment of the Judgment.
Mrs. Ramsay, does not claim anything under the act of release in 1845. The claims under the act of 1832, and that her right is a vested one under that act, & is independent of the act of 1845. Altho [Although] Congress was no doubt acquainted with the facts of the case she insists a fair interpretation of the “release of all further liability" as the act of 1845, means a release of all further liability, after the application of the just legal credits, now existing, and did not mean that any other credits should be claimed, before the release should be applied
Page 53

(7)

Ramsay had paid back in money, more than the amount he had received from Price & McCamant and Congress being satisfied of his honest & upright conduct in the affair, released him from all further liability - but provided that Price & McCamant should not be released. 
The fair inference is the money received by them & not by Ramsay, is to be made out of them, & if it shall be recovered from them & there would no protest for withholding the pension now claimed. It thus seems this pension is withheld is a security, till the Judgment shall be satisfied out of Price & McCamant. 
Suppose them wealthy & fully able to satisfy the judgment could they claim credit against it, for the amount of the pension now withheld? against the incomitances of the widow, who over her husband had no power to transfer it or mortgage it and not having actually recd [received] it could not by will deprive her of it. 
For these & other arrears, I humbly think the amount of pension withheld from Lt. Ramsay & intended to be applied 1 to the Judgement, was due him at the time of his death and should now be paid to his widow.
I am yr. obt sert [Obedient Servant]
Thomas Green
Page 54

[typed form]

Payment to be made
At [blank]
by [blank]
Agent for paying Pensioners in the Agency of [blank]

Recorded in the Pension Office, in Book [blank] Vol. [blank] Page [blank] by [blank], Clerk.
Page 55

Staunton Va. May 5. 1845 
The Hon 
James L. Edward 
Commissioner of Pensions
Sir
Congress having relieved Joseph Ramsey from any further payment of the Judgement in favour of the U.S. against him I perceive, that it would be proper to rescind the instructions given to the Pension Agent at Richmond, to pay to me only.
Mr Ramsey has given a Power of Attorney to another Gentlemen. And you will please do what is proper touching the premises. 
Very Respectfully 
Your obt. Servt
James Points
Page 56

June 24, 1842

[stamp] JUN 21 Va.

Statement of the account of the U States, against Joseph Ramsey, furnished by James Pints, Marshal of the W. Dist. Of Va.
[stamped] FREE

[written sideways] James L. Edwards, Esq. Commissioner of Pensions Washington City, D.C.
Page 57

Free

[circular seal] STAUNTON MAY 5 VA
The Hon.
James L. Edwards, Esq. 
Commissioner of Pensions 
Washington City, D.C.

[written sideways] May 7 1845
Jos. Ramsey Va
No 31,767
The Com. says [not to?] answer this letter till the receipt of old receipt & pension increased
Page 58

War Department 
Pension Office 
Aug. 28. 1834

Copy 

Sir
The declaration of Joseph Ramsey is herewith returned for amendment. He must swear positively and explicitly as to the duration of his Service. His reference to documentary evidence to supply the defect in his affidavit is in admissible
I am Very Respectfully
Yr Mo. Obt St 
(cso) J. L. Edwards 

John H. Price Esq}
Richmond}
Virginia}
Page 59

[stamp] RICHMOND
[stamped] FREE

Honble [Honorable] James L. Edwards
Comr [Commissioner] of Pensions
Washington City

[written sideways] Va. Aug. 28
Page 60

Richmond 26th Aug. 1834

Honble [Honorable]
James L. Edwards

Dr Sir
I herewith enclose the declaration Lieutenant Joseph Ramsey made in conformity with the regulations under the act of Congress of the 7th June 1832 in order to obtain the benefit of a pension of full pay under that act. 
The Documentary evidence of his services are already on file in your Department which sustains the truth of the declaration-- as Lieut. Ramseys claim is now established and the Regulations complied with you will please to enclose the certificate to me as only as convenient on the
Page 61

on the receipt of the communication in order that the old officer may receive as early as possible the amount to which he is entitled.

Respectfully 
Your obt. [Obedient] Servant
John H. Price
Page 62

1176
War Department 
Pension Office 
Aug. 25. 1834

(Copy) 

Sir 
The declaration of Joseph Ramsey is herewith returned for amendment. He must swear positively and implicitly as to the duration of his service. His reference to documentary evidence to supply the defect in his affidavit is inadmissible. 

I am, Very Respectfully
Yr. Mt. Obt. Svt [Your Most Obedient Servant]

John H. Price Esq}
Richmond Virginia}
Page 63

1182 887

Ref 9 Oct 1834 
War Department 
Pension Office 
Oct. 9. 1834 

Sir
On the 2d inst. I had the honor of submitting to you a copy of a Statement made by W. J. Singleton Esq. U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Virginia, in relation to the fraud committed on the Treasury Department in the case of Joseph Ramsey, under the act of July 5, 1832, This morning I received, another letter from Mr. Singleton on the same subject, a copy of which I herewith enclose 

I have the honor to be 
Very Respectfully
Yr. Mo. Obt. St
J. L. Edwards

Hon L. Woodbury} 
Secretary of the Treasury}
Page 64

[written sideways] Take [sensible?] measures at once for the collection W

Oct. 9 – 234 - Dunkin
Page 65

1184

Copy Staunton Oct 5, 1834 
Sir 
In communicating to you in my last from this place, the facts touching the fraud that had heretofore been practiced upon the Government by Mr. Ramsey of Wythe County, Mr. McCamant of Grayson & a Mr. Price of Richmond in obtaining for the former $7,511 as commutation pay and asking instructions in reference to the said frauds. I omitted to point the double remedy (either of which might be resorted to) for the recovery of the money. They are first. An action of assumpsit [recovery of damages for breach or non-performance of a simple contract] against Ramsey alone. upon his power of Attorney the money was drawn. the claim passed to his sole and separate benefit & therefore he is liable for the whole amount, and I understand is able to pay it. 
Secondly, a bill in Chancey [sic] against Ramsey, McCamant and Price charging the Fraud and combination (which charges are susceptable [susceptible] of proof) can be sustained, a decree joint and several would be rendered against them and in this way Ramsey could recover from McCamant & Price the $500 retained by them as compensation for prosecuting his (Ramsey’s) claim 
If it be true (as I really believe it is) that Ramsey has been imposed upon by his dishonest agents, then it is but fair, that the Government should aford [afford] him a chance of compelling them to disgorge, by pursuing the latter course for the recovery
Page 66

1185 
of the money some little delay might be produced, but the recovery would in all probability be rendered more certain, because they would be held jointly and severally bound.
You will therefore please direct which of the two remedies pointed out shall be pursued for the recovery of the money. – I have been here five days engaged in the trial of one criminal against whom I have four verdicts two more remain to be tried, their trials will in all probability occupy some eight or ten days by the way McCamant is an ex member of the Virginia House of Delegates and clerk of the Superior Court of law and chancery for Grayson County, and a practising [practicing] attorney at Law. Mr. Price I understand is one of the Pension Agents at Richmond, on a grand scale 
Very Respectfully
Yr. Obt. St 
(S) W. G. Singleton 

James L. Edwards Esq.}
Com. of Pensions}
Washington City}
Page 67

Clarksburg October 29, 1834 
To the Honbl. [Honorable] Levi Woodbury
Secretary of the Treasury 

Sir,
Yours of the 21st Inst. has been received – on looking into the Virginia Resolutions of May 1779, I find that the officers claiming under the provisions therein contained have their option to take five years full pay or half pay for life. 
In the case of Joseph Ramsey it is important that I should be informed upon what principle his claim has been settled – if he has selected to take the half pay for life, then I should be further informed whether his claim has been fully settled, and if not, whether he will continue to draw during life. that is in case his claim was a good one. – it is also necessary to have John H Price’s receipt for the money drawn on Ramsey’s Power of attorney, which you will please forward to this place, duly authenticated. 
Very Respectfully
Your obt. Serv.
W. G. Singleton

No of claim 171 – 22. Apr. 83, to 4 March 1831 – 6 March 1834 – Wt. No 8691 – March 8 – 7658.96
Page 68

Washington 8 May 1849
Col. J. L. Edward 
Sir
Mrs. Ramsay, the widow of Lieut. Jo. Ramsay has obtained a small increase of her husbands pension allowed him under act 1832.
As her attorney I filed the papers. Mr. T. J. Boyd, her neighbors & attorney were in the City & thinks she is entitled to a larger increase – You have allowed for his services as an officer for 16 mo. 28 days - the residue of the 2 yrs. as a private we think he can show at least 22 months actual service as a Lieut.
My object is desiring to see the papers is to see how it was the allowance was made for 16 mo. 18 days, orig.
I am yr obt svt
Thomas Green
Page 69

21.19

24320 -
21
320
640
6720 (280
48
192
192
Page 70

Richmond 24th Oct. 1846

Col J.L. Edwards 
Washington 
Sir,
I now enclose you, the original Rolls from the Federal Court in Western Virginia - to sustain the application of Joseph Ramsays widow for the increase of Pension on account of his services from 29 May to 1 November 1780. 
They were obtained, by an order of the Court because you could not admit the printed or any other Copy as a personal inspection of the originals only could satisfy you, as to the degree of weight to be given them. 
I send also a copy of my letter of 30th April 1846 to Thomas J Boyd to them what would be the increase of this evidence be satisfactory. Viz: $64.33 1/3 per year from 4 March 1831 to 16 June 1845 – 
It may facilitate yr. calculations by calling to your mind the fact of the case. 
The two rolls strengthen & identify each other. 
I am Yours Very Respectfully 
Thomas Green
Page 71

[Illegible] 
Jos Ramsay
T296 Va.
Nov 7 1839 Treasy [Treasury] Dept.
Act June 1 1832 Oct 31, 1839
Respectfully referred to the Secretary of War Va.

Pension Office.

[written sideways] reg. 56 Oct 31 War Dept.

[written upside down] Free
The Hon Lew Woodberry
Secretary of the Treasury
Washington City
Mail}
Page 72

War Dept.

Wythe C. House Oct 24 1837 
To the Hon. Lew Woodberry Secretary of the Treasury for the United States 
Sir 
Enclosed I beg leave to submit to your consideration the Declaration of Joseph Ramsay to obtain the benefit of the Act of Congress passed June 7 1832: I have no doubt but that the statements in the declaration are true & can be fully sustained. His name is found on the army records of this State he had in his possession his pay rolls as stated in the declaration which I have examined & believe to be genuine; there is also a paper found in the records of the army for this State which represents Ramsey as one of the officers in the Illinois Regiment who had received certificates of full pay up to the 3rd Dec 1781 which sums to negative the idea of his resignation as early as the seals in his declaration. It seems to me possible he may have become supernumerary from the fact that the reduction took place in November 1780 by an act of the Va. Legislature Ramsey is one of the officers reported by the Commissioner on the part of this State to examine the army records, as entitled to Land Bounty & sums therefore by equal right to be entitled to the Congress of the act of 7 June 1832 for half pay. An answer to this at as early a time as possible would be gratefully acknowledged by 
Sir your Most Obt.
Honbl [Honorable] Servant
Ben Rush Loyd

To the Hon Lew Woodberry
Washington City D C
Page 73

[written sideways] [stamp] WYTHEVILLE MAR 27 VA. Free 
G. W. Crump 
Acting Commr [Commissioner] of Pensions 
Mail} Washington
Page 74

Wythe C. House Mar 26 1840 

Sir
The evidence of Mr Ramsay Latinity & the record proof of his services [cut off] U S District Court for the Western District of Virginia & cannot be withdrawn until the Setting of that Court in April. The Original papers were withdrawn from the Department for the Treasury having been filed then by Ramsays Agents who obtained his half pay - May I ask that those papers be considered by the acting agent for pensions with the Exception of Anthony Crocketts affidavit, which if here would settle the question as to Ramsays Claim but I do not think proper to submit it and doubt whether it was fairly procured. If copies are Retained they will be found in the year 1835 or 6 if those copies will answer instead of the original papers on file here - please let me know at as Early a period as possible – 
Respectfully 
Your obt 
Servt
Ben Rush Floyd
Page 75

Care of Joseph Ramsey
Va Act 32at $225.33 per annum
How much does the pension now amount to?

What expenses are incurred in its collection and application in pay.t of the claim?

Who receives it?
Where is it paid?
Whether a certificate has ever issd [issued] in Ramsey’s favor for this pension? If so, who has it?
How much has been paid from other means.
I wish in time a full and detailed statement showing his amt & date of the claim & each sum paid [refunded?] by whom & from what fund.
Page 76

Debt for $7658.96 with Interest 
12 March 1834 & lists the Act then passed another of 183.34 – What [Illegible several words] 
$5,304.18

1835.52
84.66
2300
84
May 4 1840 $1000 fee to [Illegible] 
$5,304.18

[written upside down] Debt $7658.96 Credit in acct.} 4304.18
Bal Due $3354.78
31 Oct 1840 to James Points, atty. - $2027.97
15 July 1841 to do – 112.66
13 Dec 1841 do 4 Sept. ’41 – 112.66
$2,253.29
Page 77

Debt $7658.96 Credit in acct.} 4304.18
Bal Due $3354.78
31 Oct 1840 to James Points, atty. - $2027.97
15 July 1841 to do – 112.66
13 Dec 1841 do 4 Sept. ’41 – 112.66
$2,253.29

[written upside down] Debt for $7658.96 with Interest 
12 March 1834 & lists the Act then passed another of 183.34 – What [Illegible several words] 
$5,304.18

1835.52
84.66
2300
84
May 4 1840 $1000 fee to [Illegible] 
$5,304.18
Page 78

Department of the Interior 
Washington July 12th 1851 
Sir
In the case of the widow of Joseph Ramsey Submitted with your letter of the 12th wit. I am of opinion that I can precluded from any action in the case by the proceedings heretofore had by the Secretary of War. 
The money due on the pension has already been paid- time it was paid to the Marshal of Virginia, and not to the party himself, but there is nothing to show that the application made of the money was not made with Ramsey sanction. 
Congress passed a law for his relief and in that law, released him from the balance due on the judgment, and it is not improbable that the very fact that he had been deprived of the benefit of the pension was the inducement which led to the release. 
I see no remedy, at all events, except by an application to Congress for such further relief as it may think due to him. 
You will please communicate this decision to the Attorney of Mrs. Ramsey
Page 79

Very Respectfully 
Your Obt Servant 
Hon. H. H. Street 
Secretary

Commissioner of Pensions}
Page 80

Dec 5 45
Mary A. Ramsey
[for arrears &c &c?] 

Hon. G. W. Hopkins, H R

Written sideways] Col. J. L. Edwards
Comr [Commissioner] of Pensions
War Dept.
Page 81

Washington City Dec 3d 1845. 

Sir 
I enclose here with the petition of Mrs. Ramsey, widow of Joseph Ramsey late of Wythe County Va. asking for an increase of her pension &c. your early attention to the matter will oblige me.
Very truly yours 
Geo W. Hopkins
Page 82

Office of the Solicitor of the Treasury 
May 6. 1840 

Sir
The enclosed letter from Jos Ramsey to you has been this day received under cover of a letter from the U States attorney for the Western District of Virginia of which I also enclose a copy of the claim of Mr. Ramsey for a pension under the act of 7th June 1832 has been allowed, it is desirable that the amount which may be due him should be applied in part payment of the Judgment against him and others to recover back the amount fraudulently obtained from the Treasury on a claim for half pay. And I have to request that you will furnish me with such form of Power of attorney as it may be necessary for him to execute to enable the Department to make the application. 
Very Respectfully yours
M Birchard
Solicitor of the Treasury
J L Edwards Esqr 
Commr [Commissioner] of Pensions
Page 83

Pension Office. 
May 14. 1840. 

Sir,
I herewith return the papers which you sent to this office, in the case of Joseph Ramsay. This Department cannot adjudicate his claim until we are fully satisfied, that the judgment obtained in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Virginia has been satisfied. The pension he claims, if allowed, would probably amount to $2000. 
I am, Very Respectfully 
Your Obt. Servt. 
J. L. Edwards 

M. Birchard, Esqr 
Solicitor of the Treasury
Page 84

B 23 June
T252
Pension Office
Page 85

Pension Office 
June 23 1840 

Sir,
I have the honor to inform you that I have examined the claim of Joseph Ramsay, under the act of the 7th of June 1832; and I find that he is entitled to a pension of $225 33/100 per annum, commencing on the 4th of March 1831. From that period up to the date of the last semi-annual pay-day, the sum due will amount to $2027 97/00. 
Under the rules of this office I cannot issue a certificate, without authority from you, as he is indebted to the United States on a judgment obtained in the District Court of the United States for the Western District of Virginia for upwards of $7,000. If, however, you will issue an order on the back of this letter, directing a certificate to be issued and handed to Mr. Points the Marshall in order that the pension may be applied to the payment of the debt. I can see no objection to this course, provided Mr. Points will present to the Pension Agent the vouchers
Page 86

usually required of the attorney of a Pensioner.
I have the honor to be,
Very respectfully,
Your obt. Servt.
J. L. Edwards

Let the Certificate issue & be rendered to Mr. Points as herein recommended.
J. R. Poinsett

Hon. J. R. Poinsett,
Secretary of War.
Page 87

Office of the Solicitor 
of the Treasury 
May 6, 1840

Sir,
The inclosed [enclosed] letter from Joseph Ramsay to you has this day been received under cover of the a letter from the U. States Attorney for the Western District of Virginia, of which I also inclose a copy. If the claim of Mr. Ramsay for a pension under the Act of 7th June 1832 have been allowed, it is desirable that the amount which may be due him should be applied in part payment of the judgement against him & others to receive back the amount fraudulently obtained from the Treasury on a claim for half pay, and I have to request that you will furnish me with such form of power of Attorney as it may be necessary for him to execute to enable the Department to make the application.
Very respectfully yrs.
(signed) M. Birchard
Solicitor of the Treasury

To: J. L. Edward Esq.
Com. of Pensions
Page 88

Wythe C. House Apl 22 1840 
To the Commissioner of Pensions 
Sir. 
Some time since I made application for the benefit of the act of Congress passed 7 June 1832 but as yet have not been able to hear whether my claim has been passed upon. If it should be allowed I desire that the amount may be credited on a claim which the Government has recovered against my agents John H. Price & Samuel McCamant & myself for money said to have been fraudulently obtained from the Government by them on account of my services as a Soldier in the Revolution If the claim is allowed I desire as above stated that the amount may be credited on the said claim This letter will be handed you or forwarded to you by Mr [James] Points who is the Marshal for this District [of Western Virginia]. 
Respectfully
Your Obt Serv’t
[Signed] Joseph Ramsey
Page 89

Collectors Office Richmond 
December 14th 1840

Received of James Points Marshal of the Western District of Virginia the sum of Eighty four 66 ct. which he says was paid him by Joseph Ramsey in part of a judgement rendered against him in the United States Court, holden at Wythe Ct House Va. for money fraudulently obtained from the United States for Revolutionary services.
Thomas Nelson, Coll.

Collector's Office Richmond 
Nov. 23rd 1840
Received of James Points Marshal of the Western District of Virginia the sum of Eighteen Hundred and thirty five 32/100 Dollars which he says was paid him by Joseph Ramsey in part of a judgement rendered against him in the United States Court holden at Wythe Court House Va. for money fraudulently obtained from the United States for Revolutionary services 
H. J. Nelson. D. Coll.
Page 90

Collectors Office Richmond 
March 10th 1841
2000 Treasury notes 
300 Cash 
Received of James Points Marshal of the Western District of Virginia the sum of Two thousand dollars in Treasury notes and three hundred dollars in Cash making seventy three hundred dollars in the whole, which he says was paid him by Joseph Ramsey in part of a judgement rendered against him in the United States Court, holden at Wythe Court House Va. for money fraudulently obtained from the United States for Revolutionary services 
Thomas Nelson, Coll.

Collector's Office Richmond 
July 15th 1841 
Received of James Points Marshal of the Western District of Virginia the sum of Eighty four dollars which he says was paid him by Joseph Ramsey in part of a judgement rendered against him in the United States Court holden at Wythe Court House Va. for money fraudulently obtained from the United States for Revolutionary services 
H. J. Nelson. D. Coll.
Page 91

(Copy)
Collectors Office, Richmond, Va.
Nov. 23, 1840.
$1835.52/100

Received of James Points, Marshal of the Western District of Virginia the sum of Eighteen hundred & thirty five 52/100 dollars (which he says was paid him by Joseph Ramsey in part of a judgement rendered against him in the United States Court, holden at Wythe Court House Va. for money fraudulently obtained from the United States for Revolutionary services.)
(Signed) H. J.  Nelson, D. Coll.
Page 92

(Copy of the Second Comptroller’s endorsement on the back of the Voucher of Joseph Ramsey, a Pensioner on the Virginia roll, under the Act of June 7, 1832.)

Treasury Department
Second Comptroller’s Office
July 20, 1840

The Pension Agent at Richmond, Va. may pay the amount of pension due Joseph Ramsey up to the 4th of March 1840 to James Points or his order upon the within papers, the mission of an additional witness other than the magistrate, to the power, being hereby dispensed with.
(Signed) Albian K. Parris,
Comptroller,
Page 93

James L. Edwards Esq.
Commissioner of Pensions
Washington City D. C.

[written sideways] Comr. July 20 1840 Jos. Ramsey Va.
Page 94

Richmond Va. July 17. 1840 
Jas. L. Edwards Esqr 
Commissioner of Pensions 
I have written to Jos. Ramsey his certificate with the forms & instructions you gave me, and he has returned to me the certificate (as directed,) and the enclosed Power of attorney, I have just presented it to the Pension Agent to receive the money and pay it over to the U.S. in part discharge of the Judgement, but unfortunately R. Crockett the Magistrate witnessed the power of attorney to me - and notwithstanding your special letter to him, and relation of all the circumstances, touching the premises, he says it must go back, and be connected. 
My official duties, among others, the Circuit Court commencing on the 1st of Aug. and the District Courts on the 1st of Sept. will make it exceedingly inconvenient for me to come to Richmond again to attend to this matter. And as the money is only to be received by me and forthwith to pay it over to the U. S. can you not arrange the whole matter at Washington City, And I enclose the paper to you, that any endorsement may be made for me to sign, that yourself, or Judge Birchard, Solicitor may receive the money, and pay it over to the U.S. and I be directed to endorse a credit upon the F.C. Bond for the amount, so paid, and thereby save me another trip to Richmond, and should the arrangement
Page 95

not be made to pay at Washington, can you direct the Pension Agent here to pay to me or any order, that will save me a trip to Richmond, and by my Agent – the business can be done.
I presume that you will dispense with the receipt of sending the paper back to Washington, to have and the signature – than R. Crockett as witness to the power of attorney,
Very Respectfully
Your obt. Sert. 
James Points

Please write me at Staunton Va.
Page 96

[left side] Act of Congress -
[right side] Joseph Ramsey, dec.d [deceased]
Va
Act 7 June 32
for increase 
detach rolls – 
Lt. 16.28
5.4
Admd [Admitted] 22.2
$294.22. 2 as Lt.
6.44 1.28 private
300.66 $ deduct what was paid to 16 June 45 when he died –
To Mary Ann Ramsay his wife -

Filed 12 April 1845 by Th. Green Richmond Va.
Page 97

State of Virginia}
Wythe County} towit:
I John P Mathews clerk of the County Court of Wythe County in the State of Virginia, do certify that Robert Sayers, before whom the foregoing affidavit was sworn and subscribed, was at the time said affidavit was made, and still is, an acting Magistrate of said County of Wythe, duly commissioned, and that the foregoing signature purporting to be his is genuine.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto subscribed my name and affixed the seal of said Court, this 8th day of March in the year 1845
J.P. Mathews Clerk of the County Court of Wythe County,
By Andrew Thompson, DC
Page 98

The petition of Joseph Ramsey of Wythe County in the state of Virginia 
Respectfully states; that some years ago, he was allowed a pension under the Act of Congress of 7th June 1832 for services as a soldier and officer in the war of the Revolution – that he has never enjoyed the personal benefit of said pension, the same having gone to the satisfaction of a decree against this petitioner a certain John H. Price and a certain Samuel McCamant, some years ago obtained by the United States in the Federal District Court for the Western District of Virginia held at Wythe court house – that he is advised, that, according to the provisions of said Act of 7th June 1832, it was not proper to apply his pension in satisfaction of said decree, whether with or without the consent and approbation of the petitioner, it being the evident design of Congress, from the provisions of the said act, that the bounty given by it, should be exclusively for the personal use and enjoyment of the objects of that bounty. The petitioner is also advised, that by a recent Act of Congress, he and his securities have been relieved from the payment of the balance of said decree; and he would respectfully submit the question, whether the relief, under this Act does not extend, under a fair and reasonable construction, to such balance of said decree as would exist after applying all payments made thereon, exclusive of the aforesaid pension. The petitioner has paid back, in satisfaction of the said decree, exclusive of his said pension and a considerable amount in costs, every dollar he received of the Half Pay, which had been drawn by Price. He thinks, that, in justice, he ought to be allowed to enjoy his full pension; and under all circumstances he asks that the same be refunded to him, if it can be done under a fair construction of the said pension Act. The petitioner is also advised, that the length and character of his services aforesaid (as fully shown by evidence on file in the War Department in Washington City, and to be found in the record of the papers and proceedings in the suit in which the aforesaid decree was obtained,) entitle him to a larger amount of pay annually under the said Act of 7th June 1832, than has been
Page 99

allowed to him. He, therefore, prays, that his annual pay, or pension, under said Act, may be increased and allowed to the full extent, which the length and character of his services, aforesaid, will justify; and that the whole said pay, or pension, including such increase, be paid to him from the 4th day of March 1831 to the present time, and annually hereafter to his death. 
And as in duty bound he will ever pray &c. 
Joseph [his X mark] Ramsey

State of Virginia 
Wythe County, to wit: 
This day Joseph Ramsey, of the said County of Wythe, personally appeared before the subscriber, an acting justice of the peace in and for said County and State, and subscribed and swore to the foregoing petition, as containing the truth to the best of his knowledge and belief, the said Rumsey being unable to write his name, himself, from infirmity and something of paralysis, and I further certify that I am, and have been, for a number of years well acquainted with the said Ramsey, and that he is the identical person, who, as is the understanding of the neighborhood and country, has heretofore been allowed half pay and a pension, and against whom and a certain John H. Price and Samuel McClamant, the United States, some years ago, obtained a decree in the Federal District Court held at Wythe Court house for the amount of said Half Pay. Given under my hand this 8th day of March 1845 
Robert Sayers J.P.
Page 100

A Copy 
Wytheville Va. May 6th 1845

Dear Sir,
By last mail I received your favor of the 29th ult. it does seem strange to me that the Commissioner of Penson should his state to allow a pension for 22 months as Lieut. The proof I believe is full to shew that length of June at the least would not the Secretary of War take up the case and decide it accordingly to the evidence. And how can there be a difficulty understanding to Mrs. Ramsay so much of his pension as has been applied to the damages here. Price and McCamants rep to this day he has not been able to draw one dollar of his pension. Even the payment due the 4th day of March past after the Law off relief here preferred he was not allowed to draw I have already informed you that the pension Agt. in Richmond refused to pay and said that he had been instructed to pay to the Marshall and no other person. The pensioners of the pension act of June 1832 are familiar to you can there be a doubt that not only its spirit, but can its strict letter have been related
If wrong has been done and the law has been related then the [true?] balance of the decree, from which the law has given relief in there part which would be imposed if no part of the pension had been applied and it should be restored, would not the Secretary of War feel himself bound to take this side of the case. It does not seem to me, that he could not fail to order restoration. The pensioners of this County have formally been able to draw their half yearly payments through the Merchants of the country without its costing them one cent for the Merchants trouble, some Commission Merchants of Richmond, who does business for the Merchants of the country, being generally made the attorney in fact. In Mrs. Ramsay’s case, he was not only deemed the privilege of using his pension for his own personal benefit, and of selecting some attorney who would draw for him without expense to him, but he was found to make the Marshall his Attorney - allow him to return a portion for trouble of drawing, and then compelled to let the balance applied to the deed. From what I have from the Deputy Marshal, it is likely that a long portion, perhaps all of the pension for year ending 4th March past, is to be applied to some liabilities of Mr. Ramsay other than the [Illegible] that is the balance after paying expense of drawing. If the Secretary of War should incline to restoration then every dollar, that has been released by the Marshal to compensate him for that expense of drawing, as well as all that has been applied to the decree should be restored to him. As to the land Warrant, I presume there could be no difficulty in getting [Illegible] first. And is a suspended case (in file) land [Illegible] could be drawn; I suppose under the application of 3rd March 1835. 
I will side to Mrs. Ramsay in a day is line and make enquiry for the evidence you desire. And if the Marshall has given up to him his pension certificate, I will get it from him and enclose it to the Commissioner of Pensions as you request.
Please lose no time in having any attention given to Mrs. Ramsays claim and let me hear from you at your earliest convenience.
Very respectfully
Your Ob St
Thos J. Boyd
To Thomas Green Esq of Richmond & now in Washington City
Page 101

Staunton Vir, June 20 1942 
Sir
Your letter of the 11th Inst. I found on my return this day, my absence from house in the course of the delay of an answer. The statement you desire is as follows, Viz,
Amount of decree in Joseph Ramsey & others $7658.96 
Interest from 12.10 March 1834 till 4 Feb. 1839 2593.83 
“ “ 4th till 11th Mar. 1839 8.93
Costs in execution 15.26
I received [Illegible] $2.55 Com $204.94- Taking for the coming Bond 212.12
$10627.08

Served on Joseph Ramsey & Saml. McCamant property & from the sale of Saml McCamants property, Robert Gibbory & S. M. Marshal made the sum of 927.53 
$9.699.55 
For this amount Joseph Ramsey gave a delivery Bond with John P. Mathew & Robert Kent as securities, which was forfeited, and a Judgement was recorded and an execution issued which was carried by Robert Gibbory my Deputy & the sale of property a [meeting?], at which time I received from the District Attorney (G. Singleton Esq) instruction to suspend further proceedings on the execution and return it to the office upon Joseph Ramsey paying 3540.$ the amount he had received from his agent Jno & Price, which amount was paid to Robt. Gibbory in the fall of 1840 and the execution was accordingly returned
Page 102

Statement of the Judgement or for the coming bond 
Debt $9699.55
Interest from 11th Nov. 1839 till 9th June 1840 366.77 1/3
Costs in Execution 31.60 1/2
Marshal levies 6$ Mileage 9 Oct Com.d [commissioned?] $216.15 223.05
$10,320.98
Joseph Ramsey paid to Robt. Gibbory my Deputy in the fall of 1840 $2540.00 
Jos. Ramsey paid to James Points – Nov. 23. 1840 from his pension} 1835,52
“ “ “ “ Dec 14 1840 from his pension 84.55
“ “ “ “  July 15. 1841. 84.00
$4544,18
From sale of S. McCamant property as above 927.53 
Whole account recd [received] on Exection $5471.71 
Paid out as follows Viz to W. G. Singleton District Attorney upon the order of the Solicitor of the Treasury as pos of 4th of May 1840. $1000,00 
Collector Richmond Nov. 23. 1840 1835.53
“ “ Dec. 14. 1840 84.66
“ “ March 10, 1841 3300.00
“ “ July 15, 1841 84.00 $5304.18
167.53
Deduct notice on forthcoming Bond & Mileage 6.90
$160.63
In the above statement, I believe furnished all the information desired, and which is taken from the papers in my possession.
Very Respectfully, 
Your Obedient Servant 
James Points
Marshal of the W. D. Virginia
Page 103

1179

A true Copy. September 22 d 1834
Harold Smyth 
Note by Mr Smyth. 
It will be observed that this declaration from these minutes was sworn to and forwarded to the War Office and returned for informality, that in January, February or March, the applicant having been induced to go for a different claim by the advice of Mr McCamant of Grayson County Virginia and perhaps Mr Price of Richmond, the applicant (Ramsey) asked to let Mr McCamant manage the claim. Mr McCamant applied to Harold Smyth for the declaration and he gave it up with the objections to Mr McCamant, who remarked that he was going to try get “old Ramsey his land.” Harold Smyth afterwards learnt from Mr McCamant that he had obtained Scrip for Ramseys land. in the last of July or first of August 1834 a Mr Price from Richmond came to the County of Wythe to Ramsey’s residence and paid him as was understood $2,500 it being one third of Commutation pay obtained by the joint exertions of him Price and McCamant, and Price stated to Ramsey, as Ramsey said that he must allow two thirds to them McCamant and Price, which was retained. Price told Ramsey “I am the boy to manage these things” You would not give $100 fee &c. &c. Mr Ramsey had no idea of obtaining half pay, he shewed a letter from Price to himself enumerating the many and great difficulties in the way as inducement to a large proportion to the claim if received; and in that letter expressly stated that his Ramseys name “appeared no where on the roll of the Virginia line after 1780 Nov 1st .” McCamant in a conversation with Harold Smyth at August Court for Wythe County 1834 stated that he yet had Ramsey’s declaration
Page 104

1178

Minutes from which Joseph Ramsey’s declaration was drawn in 1833 and which declaration was sworn to in the County Court at Wythe County at the [blank] term 1833 and by Harrold Smyth forwarded to the War Office through Mr Fulton Member of Congress from this District, and which was returned and by said Smyth given up to Samuel McCamant in February or March or January 1834. 
Joseph Ramsey. 72 years old
Spring of 1778 enlisted in the Virginia line in the company of John Montgomery Capt in Montgomery County now Wythe, marched to Harrodsburg Kentucky thence to falls of Ohio [present Louisville KY], there joined Col George Clarke [sic: George Rogers Clark VAS269], Major Jos. Bowman [Joseph Bowman], thence to Illinois – Kaskaskias and was at the taking of that post [4 Jul 1778]. enlisted for the expedition, returned in the fall of 1778 in Company of Cap. Montgomery. Montgomery went on to the seat of Government. In January 1779 (he Ramsey) was commissioned Lieut. in a Reg’t. [regiment] authorised [authorized] to be raised by Montgomery then appointed Col, and marched in the Spring of 1779 to join Gen Clarke, took water at the long Islands of Tennessee [Long Island of Holston River, now Kingsport TN] and went by water down the Tennessee and up the Mississippi to the mouth of Illinois and thence to Kaskaskia and there joined Clarke, thence started to Detroit, but the expedition failed at Vincennes, thence returned home and after arriving at home commenced recruiting under instruction from Mr Jefferson then Governor of Virginia, for three years or during the war, was a while stationed at the lead mines [at Fort Chiswell in present Wythe County] with recruits and resigned 1st Nov’r [November] 1780. gave up his commission to Gen Clarke, afterward in February 1781. went as a volunteer to North Carolina under Col William Preston, was in two warm skirmishes with the troops of Cornwallis on the Alamance [Battle of Clapp’s Mill, 2 Mar 1781; Battle of Wetzel’s Mill, 6 Mar 1781], does not remember when he left the service.
Page 105

1180

and Harold Smyth charged him to preserve it 
Signed Harold Syth [Smyth] 
A true Copy 
W. G. Singleton 

W. G. Singleton whilst in attendance upon the Federal Court at Wythe Court House in September 1834 having heard through various sources of the imposition practiced by Joseph Ramsey and his agents upon the Government and that Harold Smyth of said County of Wythe was in possession of evidence touching said imposition, called on Mr Smyth who frankly and without hesitation gave him (W. G. S.) a written statement having reference to said imposition. The written statement furnished by Mr Smyth, or rather a Copy thereof is hereto appended.
On the 23d of September W. G. Singleton called on Mr Ramsey from whom he received a full confirmation of the truth of the information furnished by Mr Smyth. Mr Ramsey stated emphatically that he had resigned on the 1st of November 1780 and he was surprised when he was informed by his Agents that they had succeeded in getting him commutation pay, “and that he had expected the Government would enquire into the matter.” Mr Ramsey further stated that his declaration for a pension for Revolutionary Services, was then pending before the Commissioner of Pension
Monday morning September 29th 
I this moment received from John H. Fulton M. C. [Member of Congress] a letter under date of the 23d inst in reference to the Ramsey Case from which I give you the following extract. 
Mr Ramsey called on me to day and permitted me to examine the letters from Price and McCamant. McCamant says in his under date June 29th 1834 “for God’s sake keep the fact of your resignation a Secret, but a word to the wise is enough &c” upon my suggestion and advice
Page 106

1181

Ramsey has deposited these letters with J. P. Matthews (this gentleman occupies a standing which few have attained) for safe keeping, he persists in saying that he is wholly ignorant of the means by which his claim was allowed, that he never furnished any facts but those contained in his declaration in which he expressly stated that he had resigned. Ramsey is ignorant but honest and is entitled to the favour [favor] of the Government &c.
Mr Fulton writes me that he has recommended the appointment of a special agent to enquire into the pending claims from Wythe County and that Col Harold Smyth has been named to the Secretary of War. I saw Mr Smyth for the first time at Wythe Court and from the little intercourse between him and myself, I have reason to conclude that he is a gentleman and a man of integrity. W. G. Singleton
Whether Mr Smyth is competent to the discharge of the duty of Agent in the business above referred to I am not prepared to say, nor am I prepared to say whether it would be advisable to appoint an additional Agent. If I am permitted to employ Mr Goff [Nathan Goff of Clarksburg] upon the terms mentioned in my letter accompanying this, I have no doubt of accomplishing the investigation in due time. You however are more capable of judging in this matter than I am 
W. G. S.
Page 107

Washington 30th April 1846 
Mr. Thomas J. Boyd 
were present. D Sir. 
In reply to your enquiry I now state the grounds of my belief that Mrs. Ramsey the widow of Lieut. Jo. Ramsey is entitled to an increase of Pension, or a larger balance for his services than has been paid her.
He was pensioned at $225.33 - being for 16 months & 28 days service as a Lieutenant. She has since been allowed the additional sum due him his death for seven months & 2 days as a private - making in all $249. Pr. annum which has been paid him from 4 March 1831 to 16 June 1845. the day of his death.
His own affidavit states that he was (after a term service as a price) appointed a Lieutenant 1 January 1779 and continued in actual service till 1 Nov. 1780, equal to 22 months. If this service as an officer, for 22 months, be admitted, the pension due would be $306.66 1/3. and then the residue of 2 months (to complete the 24 months) at $6.667. as a private would give the sum of $313.33 ⅓ due - from which deduct $249 & there would remain $64.33 ⅓ as a balance still due pr. year from 4 March 1831. The only question, then in the case is did he serve 22 months? 
The records in Col. Edwards office show he was appointed a Lieutenant on the 1st day of January 1779 and received pay till the 28 May 1780 - 16 Mo: & 28 days - On that day this company was dissolved in all probability - I observe from the roll printed in Report 609 1 issue – 26 Congress, most of the company were paid up to that day – Lieut. Ramsay has uniformly stated that he then was sent on the recruiting service and continued in actual acting service, be the 1st day of Nov. 1780. The proof of it may be found in the same printed report above mentioned in Harold Smyth Deposition & the Roll their mentioned - That Roll is filed, in the suit against Ramsay a paper of very old date & state, the service of Ramsey from the 29 May 1780 the 1 Nov. 1780. 5 Mo. & 3 days. If this evidence in connection with Ramsay’s own statement to satisfactory, the additional sum of $64.33 ½ will be allowed. It will be seen that this evidence never was before the Commissioner as there is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the Roll there is no reason to doubt credit who have been given for it, if it had been resolved. I am yr. Obt. Sevt. Thomas Green
Page 108

Springfield Mo.
Aug 26 /22 

Commissioner of Pensions 
Washington D.C. 

Dear Sir, 
Will you please send me the Rev. War records of Joseph Ramsey Va. Lieutenant Clarks Ill. Reg. 1779-1781. 
William Brown (Va) Assistant Surgeon of the Flying Camp

[circular stamp] PENSION F AUG 30 1922 U S OFFICE
Page 109

19th to 1st Dec.
Mathew Ray (2 M.) and Acct. VII 247 
And oblige
Elizabeth Ramsey Baxter
805 S. Fremont Ave.
Springfield Missouri
Page 110

[typed form, with handwritten responses]

[left side written sideways] 1922 Sept. 29 Hist. to E. R. Bareter Aw

[right side] 7348 
INVALID Revy War

File No. 7348
Joseph Ramsay
Lt. Rev War

Act: June 7th, 1832
Index: - Vol. 1st, Page 309

[Arrangement of 1870.]
Page 111

CONGRESIONAL [CONGRESSIONAL] MANUAL BY JOEL B. SUTHERLAND; an Outline of the Order of Business in the House of Representatives, 1 volume of nearly 300 PAGES; PRICE $1.50.
This Manual has been undertaken and executed mainly with the view of giving gentlemen, who may not have served as members of the National Legislature, some insight into the mode of transacting the business of Congress especially in the H. of Representatives of the United States. Members of the State Legislatures will also find it serviceable in the performance of their legislative duties, and occasionally even the older members of Congress will find it a convenient reference. 
It contains a mass of important parliamentary decisions worthy the attention of every one desirous of becoming acquainted with the Congressional practice of the country; also the rules of both Houses of Congress, Jefferson's Manual of Parliamentary Practice, Constitution of the United States, Declaration of Independence, (giving full indexes of all of them for the purpose of affording easy and instant reference) and much other useful information. For sale by 
F. TAYLOR, Bookseller, 
dec 5 Immediately east of Gadsby's Hotel.

AGENCY AT WASHINGTON. 
AMOS KENDALL and JOHN E. KENDALL offer their services to such as may have business with the Government of the following description viz: 
Obtaining contracts from the Post Office and other Executive Departments. 
Procuring patents, and other business connected with the Patent Office.
Procuring pensions - revolutionary army, and navy; and other business in relation thereto.
Settlement of accounts, whether with the State, Treasury, War, Navy, or Post Office Departments. 
Prosecuting of claims against the Government, whether for lands, other property, or money, before any of the Executive Departments of Congress. 
Our office is in the house of AMOS KENDALL on
Page 112

And receiver of any land office within the State of Louisiana, his or their evidence of right to the warrants above described, be permitted under the same rules and restrictions of the original law under which said locations were authorized, to enter and locate a like quantity of land on any of the unappropriated public lands in the State of Louisiana; Provided, That, before any such register and receiver shall issue to such holders or assignees any certificate of relocation, the holders or assignees shall deposit a copy of their deraignment of title from General Lafayette, and a release of title to the lands located at Point Coupee.
Approved, February 26, 1845.

[PRIVATE-NO. 11.]
AN ACT for the relief of Joseph Ramsey.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that Joseph Ramsey, of Wythe county, Virginia, be, and he is hereby, discharged from all further liability upon a judgment had and now outstanding against him, John H. Price, and Samuel McCamant, in favor of the United States, in the district court of the United States for the western district of Virginia, at September term, eighteen hundred and thirty-nine, of said court: Provided, That nothing herein contained shall operate to discharge the said John H. Price and the said Samuel McCamant in any way from their liability on said judgment.
Approved, February 27, 1845.

[PRIVATE-NO. 12.]
AN ACT for the relief of Walker, Kinkle, and Caruthers.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the Auditor of the Treasury for the Post Office Department state the account of Walker, Kinkle, and Caruthers, for their service in transporting the mails from the first of February, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-five, to the sixth of August
Page 113

[left side] Joseph Ramsay
Lieut. Virginia State line – served 16 months 28 days –
$225.33/100 per ann. to comment 4 March 1831.
Richmond, Va. Agency
Issue a certificate and hand to James Points, Esq. Marshal of the Western District of Va. now present.

[right side] It appears from a roll deposited in the office in Nov. 1846 that Joseph Ramsey served from 29 May 1780 to Nov. 1 1780, making 5 months, & 4 days in addition to the time heretofore established.
Page 114

Joseph Ramsay Va. Act 7 June ’32 – was sued for money improperly rec.d [received] under act of 5 July ’32 - & his accruing pension applied to the payment of the judgement – what were those payments?
GW
M. Hazner
16 Apl ‘45
The pension was paid for 4 Mar 1831 to 4 Sep 1844 at 225.83 – what deposition was made of the money is not known at this office
IH
Page 115

(IID.4D.)

Distribution
of 
Illinois Lands

I shall want this paper again in a few days. JEH
Page 116

Ramsay, Joseph
Va. S7348
Page 117

[typed form, with handwritten responses]

[left side] No 31,767
Virginia
Joseph Ramsay, deceased
[of] Wythe Co. in the State of Va. who was a Lieut. & private in the company commanded [by Captain] Montgomery of the Regt. commanded by [Col.] Clark in the Virginia line for 2 years.
Increased from $225.33 per annum

Inscribed on the Roll of Richmond at the rate of 248 Dollars 88 Cents per annum, to commence on the 4th day of March 1831. & ending on the 16th June 1845, the day of his death.

Certificate of Pension issued the 23d day of Dec.r [December] 1845 -- and sent to Hon. G. W. Hopkins H. R.

Arrears to the 4th of ----
Semi=anl. [annual] allowance ending ----
$3554.83

{Revolutionary Claim}
{Act June 7, 1832}

[Recor]ded by Matt Stewart, Clerk
[Book] E.2. Vol. 6 ½ Page 31

[right side] Dec. 24 1845 Repd [Reported] to Agent
Dec. 24th 1845 See letter to Hon. G. W. Hopkins
To Same July 16 1846
Page 118

Ramsey, Joseph
Va.
S7348
Page 119

[typed form, with handwritten responses]

[left side] Letter to J. Burkenburgh Esq. Pension Agent 25 June 1840 
to James Points, July 20. 1840- to same Nov. 24, 1840.
Sum of $1835:52 has been deposited - see copy of Cert. of deposit within
$84.66/100 refunded by Ramsey 14 Dec 1840 2,300, refunded by same 10 Mar 1841.
letter May 14, 1842 to 3d Auditor to Hon G. W Hopkins June 11 1842 
J Points do Letter G. W. Hopkins
June 24. 1842 do to A.B. Penson
Oct 18 1845 let to Hon. G W Hopkins Apl 1 1844
[Illegible] 5 June 1845

[right side] Virginia 31,767
Joseph Ramsay
of Wythe Co. in the State of Virginia who was a Lieutenant in the company commanded by Captain Montgomery of the regt. commanded by Col. Clark of the Va State line for 16 months & 28 days

Inscribed on the Roll of Richmond Virginia at the rate of 225 Dollars 33 Cents per [annum] to commence on the 4th day of March, 1831.

Certificate of Pension issued the 25 day of Ju[cut off] 1840 and delivered to James [Points] Esq. Marshal of the Western Dist. of Va. now [cut off]

Arrears to the 4th of Mar 1840 202.
Semi-annual allowance ending 4 Sep " 112.6[cut off]
$2140.6[cut off]

[circular stamp]THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF THE UNITED STATES

25
{Revolutionary Claim,}
{Act June 7, 1832.}

Recorded by D. Brown, Clerk
Book E. Vol. 64 1/2 Page 31
Page 120

) with my deposition 
Harold Smyth
April 23d 1836

[written sideways] [476?] Jos. Ramsey pay Roll

Ramsey, Joseph
Va. S.7348
Page 121

A Pay Roll For Lieut. Joseph Ramsey of the Illinois Battalion Commanded By Colonel George Rogers Clark in the Virginia service commencing May 29th 1780 and ending November 1st 1780 Inclusive

[column headings] Names and rank. Commencing 1780. Inservice months days. Pay in dollars per month including Subsidence. Total amount in Virginia
Joseph Ramsey Lieut. May 29th November 1st 5 [months] 4 [days] – 40 61 4 11 errors incepted