The Pennsylvania gazette — Philadelphia, Pa., 1776-02-21 00:00:00, page 1

DEBATES in the IR ISH HO USE of COMMONS,
continued from our last.
MR. fohn Fitzgibbons said, before we took any part
in a war, we should examine whether it was just.
He then entered into a recapitulation of all that had pafled
between Great-Britain and her colonies from the last war
to the present time, and concluded that the war was un
just, and Irelandhad no reason to be a party therein ; some
may fay, added he, if we refufe these troops to his Ma
jesty's request, it may be of evil consequences, but he
thought differently. It would make the King look into
the affair, and when he fees we are not inclined to assist in
an unjust war, it may be a means of inducing him to put
an end to it.
Sir John Blaquiere replied, the refolntio.n before the
Committee tended to verify and realize the profeffions of
loyalty made by the house. To this gentlemen might
consent, without agreeing to the other, if they thought
fit t^ submit to a short temporary inconveniency, rather
than receive foreign troops, which would only be sent at
the desire of the house.
Sir Edward Ne^uenham said, as he had given his nega
tive to the address, which denounced vengeance against
his fellow-fubjedts, he could not agree to the fending of
more troops to butcher men who were fighting for their
liberty. He said, that we might bid farewell to such as
we lent to America; for that if America was conquered,
the troops would be kept there to preserve thateconqueft;
for though it might be conquered, the spirit of liberty
would not be ever fdbdued.---He was violently against the
introduction of foreign mercenaries, and argued that the
introduction of them had occasioned the fall of many
great empires and dates.---He instanced the danger of
having foreign troops in any kingdom were they would
not be amenable to the laws, by mentioning the case of
a Hessian soldier, who committed a robbery, -and was con
fined by the civil magistrates, but was released and given
up to the military. That Hanoverian, Heffiah and Bruns
wick troops were more dangerous than any others ; for
that German connections were always fatal to the true
interests of Old England. He entered largely into the
prelent system of affairs in Europe. He infilled upon it,
that German influence was so powerful in the Cabinet of
Great Britain, that the most valuable interests of these
kingdoms would be given to save the paltry Electorate
of Hanover. That he was convinced the deftruCtion of
+ he Elector's Manager, at Hcrehhkufeu,'or the much ad
mired find of cream-coloured nags, in the ffables of Ha
nover or Zell, would appear in the eyes of the present
ministry as a greater misfortune than the desolation of
those three once happy, but now diftraCted finking na
tions. He advised the Minister in the house to confider
what riots and disorders would be committed in the city
of Dublin, if foreign mercenaries were quartered in it.---
That the fending of our troops to the butchery of our
fellow-fubjeCts in America, or bringing over foreign
mercenaries, equally militated against true reason and
found policy.
Mr. Gardiner considered the question in a two-fold
light ; firft, in regard to the relation in which we stand to
Great-Britain and America, and secondly, in regard to
ourselves. In rcfpcCt to the firft the question is not whe
ther America refilled firft, or whether the was oppressed
firft? but at present it Hands only, whether America
should be for ever loft to Great-Britain, or not? He hear
tily wished a reconciliation might take place, but that
could only be effected by having a power to enforce it.
Men, whose very exiftehce in their offices depend on war,
will never be sincere advocates for peace. The greater
force sent to America, the less sanguinary will be the
measure ; and, he was clearly of opinion, had there been
as many troops in America last spring as there will be the
next, not a sword would now have been unsheathed. It
is our duty and interest to assist Great-Britain, if we can ;
hut we cannot spare so many men from the defence of
this country, if they are not somewhere replaced. The
disposition of the nations around us forbid us to leave Ire
land defencelefs. In his late tour he had an opportunity
of conversing with intelligent persons in divers courts of
Europe, and, by what he could gather, he was assured
th# he looked upon the contest with America as a means
of weakening us; and when our neighbours thought us
Efficiently weakened, then they would not fail to attack
us in onr most defencelefs part. The Spaniards had a
greater force than ever they had since the time of the Ar
mada, commanded by an Irishman, who would omit no
opportunity to invade that country, against which he was
embittered by being banished from it. If these troops
went away without being replaced, we should be defence
lefs. By the most accurate accounts, there were but 8500
real fighting men in Ireland; and if a fourth part of them
were lent abroad, he would aik the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Sir John Blaquiere) or he would ask the Commander in
Chief (if he were in the House) whether either would un
dertake the defence of this kingdom with the remainder,
. without any addition. He did not conceive there could be
more danger from foreign troops than from natives ; they
were unacquainted with our language, and unconnected
with our people, and therefore less liable to desertion.
He aifo thought the saving from this measure was of great
importance; n^erthelefs, before he wohld give his assent
to the resolution, he mail be assured of two things—one,
that the men sent abroad will certainly be replaced ; the
other, that the saving of the 4000 mens pay will not re
main a surplus in the treasury, exposed to the grasp of a
Minister, but be deducted from the total of the supplies
in the present money bill. [N. B. Mr. Gardiner voted
against the queftion.]
Mr. Carleton spoke a long time, to prove there could be
no dagger of a precedent making against us; and he en
larged on the evil consequences that would ensue from ir
ritating Great-Britain, by refusing this request.
The Pennsylvania
Containing the Frejheft Ad-
February 21, 1776.
Mr. Warden Flood efponfed the measure, as it was not
any augmentation, but a lessening of the national expence.
Mr. George Ogle said he was not to be intimidated.by
any threats of ill consequences arising from a refufal. He
was averse to fend men, with swords in their hands,
to cut the throats of their American brethren. That the
ample supplies given by this exhausted and struggling
country were fufficicnt teftimonie^ of our loyalty; and it
was highly improper to fend men to punish in others what
they would do in the fame case measure was
doubtless determined on the very firft day of the session ;
and that was the cause why the compact of keeping 12,000
men here was so ftriaiy observed. The foreign troops
cannot be called our own troops, if we do not pay them;
they will fight for those only who do.—A land-tax will
probably be attempted here; and if it does not succeed
(as certainly it cannot) then it will be laid on by the Bri
tish Parliament, and the foreign troops will be left here
to enforce obedience. —Whilst Parliament here will do all
that is absurd, we shall, no doubt, have a Parliament,
just as the Romans had a Senate in . e times of the Em
perors, but only to give a fan&ion to the Emperor's
dictates. He was, he said, alarmed by the manner in
which the two resolutions were treated by administration.
—The firft was the measure of government, and as such
was supported—the last was the measure of Parliament,
and as such was flighted by administration; just as if they
said, " Grant us the 4000 more, and then take care for,
your own defence as you pleafe."—lf men mud be sent
to America, fend these foreign mercenaries, not the brave
sons of Ireland. —Gentlemen have said, Ministers must
have power to enforce conciliation ; but we know few
Ministers, who have power to enforce, will attend to the
voice of justice; they will ad as Brennius, the Gaul, did
with the vanquished Romans—he viewed the tribute
money exacted from them, and threw his sword in the
opposite scale. But if these men must go, why must we
have foreign troops for our defence? why not raise the
militia?—They are our natural, our constitutional de
fence, and the railing them is practicable.
Captain fephfon observed, we have no reason to be so
tender of the Americans, who had treated us ill ; they
had resolved in their Congress to receive no commodities
from nor have any commerce with Ireland ; and this de
claration not only set us at defiance, but fully proves they
do net think us so infatuated as to iak^ /(air Darts?
Sir James Colter alked whether the foreign troops,
when they came here, were to be amenable to our laws,
or their own, and repeated the infiance of the Hanoverian
soldier at Maidftone.
Mr. Attorney-General answered, that all troops, for
eigners as well as natives, were reponfible to the laws of
this country as soon as they set foot therein.
Sir fames Cotter replied he was glad to find they were,
yet he thought the measure very exceptionable. But if
they did come, it would be better to pay them ourselves
than not, cfpecially as the expence was already provided
for in the establishment.
Mr. Langrifoe replied to the objections of sundry gen
tlemen, and observed that the saving on the military esta
blishment was not the only advantage that would be de
rived from the foreign troops, but all their pay would be
expended in this country, to the great advantage thereof.
Mr. Barr, Barry was of opinion the men might be
spared, without their being replaced with foreign troops.
Mr. Redmond Morres observed, however we might be
able to spare these men, yet it would be very improper
to do so, and if the foreign troops did come, he hoped
they would rather be quartered in the country than in
Dublin, where the people would not be so contented with
them..
Mr. Mason urged, that by the Address of the House to
his Majesty, it had expressed its sense that America was in
rebellion. He observed, that agreeing to the firft resolu
tion did not bind them to agree to the second, though he
was of,opinion it was proper to agree to both.
Mr. Yelverton declared it was frill his opinion, as it was
at the opening of the session, that the refinance of the
Americans was not rebellion, and how could he consent
to aid the fate of America, which depended on the de
cifioh of that night. The question indeed was important,
and decision very delicate. If we refufe his Majesty's re
quest, we incur the displeasure of Great-Britain; if we
comply, we aid the arbitrary designs of a despotic Mini
stry. In this dilemma what can guide us? Nothing but
reason and justice. We have two ads of Parliament, de
claring that i2,c00 men are nectary for the defence of
the kingdom ; and we have just resolved the fame in the
Committee of Supplies. Now if we agree to part with a
third part of that number, when there is no rebellion or
invasion in Great-Britain, we contradict these ads of the
legislature, and bclye our own resolutions. Great-Britain
pretends to a supreme authority over all her dominions,
as well in regard to internal taxation as to commercial re
gulations. Does not this aflertion include Ireland? It
certainly does, and nothing is wanting but a plausible pre
text, or a proper opportunity, to enforce it. This has
been enforced in America; this caused the war, and
therefore the war is unjust. Let Great-Britain enjoy the
wealth of both the Indies ; let London be the grand
empirium of Europe ; let her exert her commercial power
over the sea from pole to pole; but let us fay to it, as to
the sea, hither thou ftalt come and no farther. If these
bounds are exceeded, human nature will not submit with
out murmuring, nor free-born British fubjeds without
refinance. The changes have been long rung about taxa
tion and representation, but men have bewildered them
selves on that fubjed, for want of setting out on proper
and legal grounds; representation is not a representation
of persons but of property. At firft writs were issued to
all who held of the crown in capite. These were about
730 in number, and fat in the right of their property, held
^#|^^4&
^^^
G^ZETTE.
vices. Foreign and Domeflic.,
in feudal tenure, and not by any election. As commerce
increased, property was purchased, and extended into
many hands. The property of 700 became disseminated
amongst numbers, too great to convene and fit in their
own rights; those who possessed what was the property
of one great Baron, elected one or more of their own
number to represent the whole of the property thus di
vided, and thence derived the right of representation.
The case became the fame in cities and corporations
which held by capite from the crown. The whole cor
poration could not come to vote, therefore the corpora
tion elected its representatives. This proves how true
that assertion was of Lord Chatham, that every blade of
grass in Great-Britain <was represented. But not one Ame
rican blade of grass is represented in the British Parlia
ment, therefore it cannot be justly taxed there, and this
fliews the folly and absurdity of the so much talked of
virtual representation, and faying that mahy thousands in
Britain were not represented more than the Americans.
Many English persons may not indeed, but the whole
English landed property is. Englishmen Purely did not lo£
their spirit as well as their rights by crofli^ ita^ntic:
No, they did not ; they carried ihkher their free-born
spirit, before it was contaminated with an influx of Asiatic
wealth, from all this it appears, the war of Britain with
her colonies is unjust; nor is it likely it should succeed
under the auspices of that Ministry, who so unjultly
railed it; for we fee twelve colonies united, who are dif
ferent in Gtuation, different in interests, different in reli
gion, different in manners, different in every tiling but
spirit. What has been the success of the British arms
against these people? We have seen the British navy, the
terror of the world, who used to carry thunder to every
part of the globe, now failing from one little island to ano
ther, for the glorious purpose of pilfering a few cattle. We
have seen the British troops pent up in°Bofton Neck; we
have seen a Ministry plotting and purchasing counter ad
drelles, to cover their disgrace, and fending troops a
broad in the most dangerous season of the year, to en
counter tempests which seem to have been raised by Pro
vidence, on purpose to prevent more from imbruing their
hands in their'brethrens blood. But, if even it was lift
to feud our troops, and they were likely to succeed, yet
it would be inexpedient; for if we ffiould iain to fiibdue
resistance, would it not be a precedent against ourselves,
if ever we should refill against a like oppr.-Okm. Had wc
foreleeb, or been acquainted with this ir.er.fuie, and th A
we should have saved so much on the military eftablifl>
ment, before we had voted the Tontine scheme, we
might have spared i 6,0001. but it seems to have been kept
in petto, till all the demanded supplies had been granted.
Captain french spoke next against the measure, and Mr.
Prime Serjeant for it.
Mr. Roller said the only point to be considered was,
whether this measure would bring on a reconciliation,
which he thought it would. It was clear that the with of
America was a total independence, and if we refufe to
fend these troops, we prevent a reconciliation, by hinder
ing Great-Britain from enforcing reasonable terms, which,
if properly enforced, the Americans might agree to. But,
if we even agree to fend these troops, 'we do not therebv
condemn the Americans, we only assist Great-Britain in
her time of need. In regard to the supplies, though they
are voted, the money bills are not patted, and gentlemen
may make such retrenchments in them as they think ne
cefl'ary.
Mr. Chapman said, that he did not expert to hear such
a menage after the many aflurances of the Minister, that
the 12000 men were compleatly in this kingdom, and
should remain so inviolably; and after the promises of ad?
miniftratioa, that nothing should be expected from this
country to America but the address to the throne. That
notwithstanding the Committee of Supply had resolved
12000 men to be necessary for our defence, and had pro
vided for them accordingly, yet, while these assurances,
the very founds yet tirigledin their ears, the Minister for
got himfelf in the meflenger of the crown, — not to bring
to their longing eyes the olive branch, the emblem of
much-wished for peace, but he lays his hand on his sword,
and becomes the harbinger of war. —That he congratu
lated administration on at length finding but that hitherto
invisible deity of their's, but, on closer infpeclion, he
was furry to difeover that deity, like the God of the
Egyptians, plainly and simply—a Bull. That if the Mi
nister was serious when he promised ceconorny, he ought #
to lessen the supply, in proportion to that ceconomyf to
content himfelf with fewer taxes, and to diminish his de
mands. That he called on him to do so, but he found
him silent on that point; and therefore must conclude no
real ceconomy was in his contemplation. That one year's
saving was the utmost that was mentioned. That such
reduction was paltry indeed, controlled with the probable
loss of 4000 gallant countrymen, devoted facrifices to ap
pease the fury of an incenfc-d, a despairing people, in de
fence of their rights, confident against the world in arms:
That the tears of the forlorn widow, the cries of the help
less orphan, could not be weighed in the money scale of a
Minister. That this kingdom would be left, exposed to
every enemy allured by such profpeds. That the alking
the consent of Parliament was a farce in politics, and an
undermining of a positive aft of Parliament. That it was
well known that the crown always defined the consent of
a Dean and Chapter to the appointment of an intended
Bishop, but it was never yet known that the person nomi
nated did not succeed to the episcopal dignity.
Mr. Solicitor General said, as the expence to be incurred
was the chief argument used against the augmentation, so
no gentleman, who voted then against it, can confidently
oppose the measure by which the expence is taken away.
He begged the firft resolution might be disposed of, before
they entered into the consideration of the fecend; adding,
L For the Remainder fee the fourth Page. J
Numb. 2461.