The Pennsylvania journal, or, Weekly advertiser — Philadelphia, Pa., 1776-02-21 00:00:00, page 1

Continuation of tie Debates of tie Info House of Parliament,
November 2s, 1776. Continued from our last.
MR. G^r^er considered thequeftion in atwo fold light; frft
ia regard to the relation in which we stand ta Great-
Britain and America, and secondly in regard to ourselves.
In refpe£ lto the firft, the question is not, whether Ameri
ca refilled firft, or whether the was oppressed firft ; but at
present it Bands only, whether America (halt be for ever
loft to Great-Britain or not ? He heartily wished a recon
ciliation might take place; °ut that couid only be effect
ed by having a power to enforce it.—Men whose very ex
igence in their offices depend on war, will never be sin
cere advocates for peace.— The greater force sent to Ame
rica, the less sanguinary will be the measure, and he was
clearly of opinion, had there been as many troops in America
lad Spring, as there will be the next, not a sword would
now have been unsheathed —lt is our duty and our inter
est to assist Great-Britain, if we can ; but we cannot spare
so many men from the defence of this country if they are
not somewhere replaced. —The disposition of the nations
around us forbid us to leave Ireland defencelcfs. —In his
late tour he had opportunities of conversing with in
telligent persons in several Courts of Eur.pe, and, by what
he could gather, he was attired that they looked upon the
contest with America as a means of weakening us; and
when our neighbours thought us Efficiently weakened, then
they would not fail to attack us in our most defencelefs
part.—The Spaniards had a greater force than ever they had
lince the time of the armada, commanded by an Irish man,
who would omit no opportunity to invade that country,
against which he was embittered, by beiag banished from
it —ls these troops went away without being replaced, we
mould be defencelefs.—By the most accurate account, there
were but 8500 real fighting men in Ireland; and if a
fourth part of them were sent abroad, he would aik the
Right Hon. Gentleman, (Sir John Blaquiere) or he would
ask the Commander in Chief (if he was in the House) whe
ther either would undertake the defence of this kingdom
with the remainder without any addition. He did not con
ceive there could be more danger from foreign troops than
from natives ; they were unacquainted with our language,
and unconnected with our people and therefore the less
liable to desertion. He also thought the saving from this
measure was of great importance ; nevertheless before he
could give his assent to the resolution, he must be assured
of two things—one, that the men sent abroad will certainly
be replaced—The other, that the savings of the four thou
sand men's pay will not remain a lurplus in the treasury,
exposed to the grasp of a minister, but be deduced from
the total of the supplies in the present money bill. [N. B.
Mr. Gardiner voted against the queftion.]
Mr. Carleton spoke a long time, to prove there could be
no danger of a precedent making against us; and he en
larged on the evil consequences that would ensue from imi
tating Great- Britain by refuting this request.
Mr. Warden Flood espoused the measure, as it was not
any augmentation, but the lessening of the national expence.
Nr. °George Ogle said he was not to be intimidated by
any threats 'of ill consequences anting from a refufal.—He
was aveife to lend men, with fjords in their hands, to cut
the throats of their American Brethren —That the ample
supplies given by this exhausted and struggling country were
Sufficient testimonies of our loyalty ; and it was highly im
proper to fend men to punish in others what they would
do in the fame case.—This measure was doubtless deter
mined on the very firft day cf the fdliou; and that was
the cause why the compact of keeping twelve thousand
men here was so ftridly observed.—The tervign troops can
not be called our own troops, if we do not pay them;
th«y will fight for those only who do.—A land-tax will
probably be attempted here, and if it does not succeed, (as
certainly it cannot) then it will be laid 011 by the British
Parliament, and the foreign troops will be left here to en
force obedience.—Whilst Parliament here will do all that
is absurd, we shad, no doubt, have a Parliament, just as
the Romans had a senate in the tiraeof the Emperors, but
only to give a fan&ion to the Emperor's dilates.—He was,
he said, alarmed by the manner in which the two rcfolu
tions were treated by admiaiftration.—The firft was the
measure of government, and as such was fupporred-the last
was the measure of Parliament, and as such was flighted by admi
nistration ; just as if they said, “ grant us the four thou
sand more, and then take care for your own defence as
you pleafe."—lf men must be sent to America, fend these
mercenaries, not the brave fens of Ireland —Gentlemen
have said, Ministers must have power to enforce concilia
tion ; bur we know few Minillers who have power to force,
will attend to the voice of justice; they wJI act as Bren
dus, the Gaul, did, with the vauqui^ed Romans—he weigh
ed the tribute money he exacted from them, and threw his
sword in the oppofue scale.—But if these men must go,
why must we have foreign troops for our defence? why
net ralfe the militia '—They are cur natural, our constitu
tional defence, and the railing them is practicable.
Captain Jefehfon observed, we have no reason to be so
tender of the Americans, who have treated us ill; they had
resolved in their Congress to receive no commodities from,
ror have any commerce with Ireland ; and this declaration
not only set us at defiance; but fully proves they do not
think us so infatuated as to take their part.
Sir James Cotter alked whether the foreign troops, when
they came here, were to be amenable to our laws, or their
own, and Repeated the instance of the Hanoverian soldier at
Maidftone., .
Mr. Attorney General answered that all troops, foreigners as
well as natives, were refoonfib:e to the laws of this country
as soon as they let foot therein.
THE
Februartzi, 1776. ^ g ^ A Numb. 1733;
PENNSYLVANIA ^^Y JOURNAL;
' DAAf'NBiyOBI^ THE
WEEK.LM » ADV BKAI3EK.
^m^^^^Jr^VA
WEDNESDAY ^b^Lj^ February 21 , 177 6.
Mr. Mason urged that by the address of the house to his
Majesty, it had expressed its sense that America was in rebel
lion. He observed that agreeing to the firft resolution did not
bind them to agree to the second, though he was of opinion
it was proper to agree to both.
Mr. Yelverton declared, it was still hi^ opinion,
as it was at the opening of the session, that the
refinance of the Americans was not rebellion ; and how could
he content to aid the fate of America which depended on the
decision ofthat night. The question indeed was important,
and decision very delicate. It we refufe his Majesty's request
we incur the difpledfure of Great-Britain, if we comply,
we aid the arbitrary designs of a defpetic ministry. In
this dilemma what can guide us ? Nothing but reason and jus
tice. We have two a&s of parliament, declaring that ia,oob
men are nectfary for the defence of the kingdom ; and we
have just resolved the lame in the committee of supplies.
Now if we agree to part with a third part of that number,
when there is no rebellion or invasion in Great-Britain, we
contradict these a&s of the legislature and belye our own re
solutions. Great-Britain pretends to a fupteme authority
over all her dominions as well in regard to internal taxation,
as to commercial regulations. Does not this aflertion include
Ireland ? It certainly does, and nothing is wanting but a
piaufibie pretext, or a proper opportunity to enforce it. This
has been inforced in America ; this caused the war, and there
fore the war is unjust. Let Great-Britain enjoy the wealth of
both the Indies. Let London be the grand emporium of Eu
rope; let her exert her commercial power over the Sea from
pole to pole; but let us fay to it as to the sea, hither thou
/halt come and no farther. If these bounds are exceeded, hu
man nature will not submit without murmuring, nor free-born
British spirits without refinance. The changes have been long
rung about taxation and representation, but men have bewil
dered themfcives on that fubjedt, for wane of setting out on
proper and legal grounds, representation is not a representa
tion of persons but of property At firft writs were issued
to all who held of the crown in' capita. These were a
bout: 730 in number, and fat in the right of their property
held in icudilteuure and not by any election. Ascommerccen
creafed, property was putchafed, andextended into many hands.
The property of seven hundred became disseminated amongst
numbers, too great tocouvene andfit in their own rights ; those
whopoffeffed what was the property of one great Baron, clewed
one or more of their number to repreient the whole of the
property thus divided, and thence derived the right of repre
sentation. The case became the fame in cities and corpora
tions which held in capite from the crown. The whole cor
poration could not come to vote, therefore the corporation
ekaedits representative. This proves how true that aflerri
on was of Lord Chatham, that every blade of grass in Great-
Britain was represented. But not one American blade of
grass is represented in the Brittih Parliament, therefore it can
not bejuhly taxed there, and this thews the folly and absurdity
of the to much talked of virtual representation, and faying that
many thousands in Britain were cot represented more than
the Americans. Many English persons may not indeed, but
the whole English landed property is. Englishmen surely did
not lose their spirit as well as their rights by crossing the At
lantic ? No, they did not, they carried thither their freeborn
spirit, before it was contaminated witli an influx of Asiatic
wealth. Ffpm all this it appears the war of Britain with
her colonies is unjust ; nor is it likely it should succeed un
der the auspices of that ministry who so unjufih raised it; for
we fee twelve colonics united, who are different in situa
tion, different in interests, different in religion, different
in manners, different in every thing but spirit. What has
been the fucyefs of the British arms against these people.
We have seen the Btitifh navy the terror of the world, who
used to carry thunder to every part of the globe, now failing
fiom one little illand to another, for the glorious purpufe of
pilfering a few c, tile. We have seen the Britifo troops pent
up in Boston neck ; have seen a ministry plotting and pur
chasing Counter addresses to cover their disgrace ; and fending
troops abroad in the most dangerous season of the year, to en
counter tempers whiclr seem to have been raised by provi
dence, on purpose to prevent more from imbruing their hands
in their brethren's blood. But, if even it was just to fend
our troops, and they were likely to succeed, yet it would be
inexpedient ; for if we Should join to lubdue refinance, would
it not be a precedent against ourselves, if ever we should refill
again!! a like oppression. Had we forefeen, or been ac
quainted with this measure, and that we should have saved
io much on the military establishment before we had voted the
tontine scheme, we might have saved 16,000 b but it seems to
have been kept io petto, till ail the demanded supplies had
been granted.
Captain Trench, spoke next against the measure, and Mr.
Prime Setjeaat tor it.
Mr. Foster, said the only point to be considered was, whe-
Sir fames Cotter replied, be was glad to find they were, yett
he thought the measure very exceptionable. But if they did
come, it would be better to pay them ourselves than not, ef
pecialiy as the expence was already provided for in the esta
blishment.
Mr. Langrifee replied to the objections of sundry gentle
men, and observed that the saving on the military eftabtifh
ment was not the only advantage that would be derived from
the foreign troops, but all their pay would be expended in
this country to the great advantage thereof.
Mr. Barry Barry was of opinion that the men might be
spared without their being replaced witli foreign troops.
Mr. Redmond Morres observed, however we might be able to
spare these men, yet it would be very improper to do so, ad
if the foreign troops did come Be hoped they would rather be
quartered in the country than in Dublin, where the people
would not be so contented with them.
ber this measure would bring on a reconciliation, which he
thoughtit would. It was clear, that the with of America was
a total independence ; and if we refufe to fend these troops,
we prevent a reconciliation, by hindering Great-Britain from
enforcing reasonable terms, which, if properly enforced, the
Americans might agree to. But, if we even agree to fend these:
troops, we do not thereby condemn the Americans, weonly assist
Great-Britain in her time of need. In regard to the supplies
though they are voted, the money bills are not passed, and
gentlemen may make such retrenchments in them, as the,
think necessary,
Mr. Chapman said that he did not expea to hear such a
meffige after the many affuianccs of the minister, that the
ixooo men were complcatly in this kingdom, and fliould re
main so inviolably ; and. after the promises of administra
tion, that nothing ihould be expe&ed from this country to
America, but the address to the throne. That notwithstand
ing th Committee of Supply had resolved 12,000 men \yere
neceffaj for our defence, aud had provided for them accord
i°&'y ' y ct ' while these assurances, the very founds yet tingled
in their cars, the minister forgot himfelf in the mßerger of
the crown, —not to bring to their longing eyes the Olive
branch, the emblem of much wished for peace ; but, he lays
his hand on his sword aud becomes the harbinger of war.—
That he congratulated administration on, at length finding
out that hitherto invitible deity of their's but, on closer in
fpeaion, he was furry to d fcover that deity, like the God of
the Egyptians, plainly and simply—a BULL. That if the
Minister was serious when he promised economy, he ought to
lessen the supply in proportion to that economy; to content
himfelf with fewer taxes, and to diminish his demands. That
he called on him to do so, but he found him silent on that
point ; and therefore, mud conclude no real ©economy was
in his contemplation. That one year's saving was the utmost
that was mentioned. That such reduction was paltry in
deed, contrasted with the probable loss of 4,000 gallant coun
trymen, devoted facrifices to appease the fury of an incensed,
a despairing people, in defence of their rights, confident against
the world in arms : That the tears of the forlorn widow, the
cries of the helpless orphan, could not be weighed in the
money scale of a minister. That this kingdom would be
left exposed to every enemy, allured by such profpe<fts. That
the asking the consent of Parliament was a farce in politics,
and an undermining of a positive a& of parliament. That
it was well known that the crown always desired the consent
of a dean and chapter to the appointment of an intended Bi
shop; but, it was never yet known that the perfor. nominated
did not succeed to the episcopal dignity.
Mr. Solicitor General said, as the expence to be incurred
was the,chief argument used against the augmentation, so
no gentleman who voted then against it, can, confidently
oppufe the measure by which the expence is taken away, He
begged the firft resolution might be disposed of before they
entered into the confederation of the second ; adding, that if
we refufed the request of the crown, we should hurt the Ame
ricans by mifleadiDg them to their ruin.
Mr Jame: Brown spoke in defence of the measure.
Mr. Conolly urged his tears for Ireland from establishing a
precedent, and mentioned that the King's fpetch at opening
the Britith Parliament, declared the supremacy over all his do
minions. He repeated and enforced what had been said about
a land tax laid on by England and enforced by foreign mer
cenaries. He took notice of the intelligence an honourable
gentleman (Mr. Gardiq,) had derived of the hostile inten
tions of foreign powers, from the cabinets of foreign courts.
Here Mr. Gardiner said the Right Honourable gentleman had
mistaken him; he had only said Courts not Cabinets. Mr.
Connolly replied, he bad indeed mistaken, but the mistake
was cafily made, as he thought no Gentlemen more fit for a
Lady's or a privy Counfelloi's Cabinet, than the Honourable
Gentlemen.
Mr. Huffed Burgbthen rose, and introduced his opinion re
lative to the question; with observing that although he had
generally voted on that fide of the house, which is called op
polition, yet he had fttit down as a maxim never to give his
Support to a motion i/hich was calculated to harrafs the mi
niher, and not to serve the people; that when there was a
considerable rhajority, evident on the 'part of government, he
thought it bed not to hazard a question, which there was a
certainty of losing; thrt he made for this reason, fewer moti
ons than any man in the house; that he had 110 enemies to
perfeccte, no partifads to serve; and that this might account
for his lilence during the present session; but he said the pre
sent question was or the greatest importance, a question arif
iag from a message ft nt by the King to his Parliament, to
which an answer mud be given: that without pallion, with
out prejudice, and witli out fear, be would deliver his opinion;
and that the man did not live who knew on which fide of
the question that opinion would turn. He then entered large
ly into the consequences which might attend the putting this
measure into execution ; took a Biort view of the American
war, which he termed 1 njuft, as it not only militated against
the law of nations, the law of the land, the law ofhumanity,
but against the law of nature. He mentioned the imbruing
our hands in the blood rof our kinsmen aud near relations;
and that the saving, which was mentioned as a motive to in
duce our supporting the ministry, was no more than a bribe to
purchase our assistance to cut the throats es the. Americans ;
that if the war was just, there was no necessity to bribe our
concurrence ; that the right of taxation demanded by Great-
Britain was unjust, for that it was contrary to all reafon,that a,
people who were the fubjedts of Great-Britain/ mould in
respect to their property be at the raercy of two powers, and
acknowledge a right of I axation, both in their own arfemblies
aud in the Britifli senate ; that if this was the case, they could
not boast any property, for every Shilling they enjoyed,might
by one aft of a parliament, in which they were not repre-