The royal gazette — [Charleston] S.C., 1781-08-04 00:00:00, page 4

Parliamentary Proceedings.
House of Commons, Monday April 30.
[East-India Business.]
LORD NORTH, agreeable to the notice he had given relative to
the infurre&ion in the Carnatic, propoled that a Committee of
Secrecy might be appointed to enquire into the cause thereof, and
that they ihould report their proceedings to the House, together with
their observations thereon.
Lord Netubaven thanked the noble Lord for having proposed the
enquiry; he was very sensible it was essentially necellary, and he
hoped would be productive of much good: but had no idea why the
Committee should be a secret one.
Mr. T. Tovutfend thought the enquiry an important one, but
would not be so hasty as the last Hon. Gentleman in giving his thanks
to the noble Lord in the Blue Ribbon; he muff wait the decision of
the Committee, know what steps they had taken, and whether their
deliberations would be attended with such consequences as would
Bring the authors of the troubles in India to light, or be the cause of
quelling the said troubles, before he puffed such compliment. In his
opinion, however, a Committee of Secrecy was improper. It would
be also necessary to enlarge the motion, that the Committee might be
empowered to enquire further than into the cause of the Carnatic
ravages. Many Gentlemen ip that House had acquired immense for
tunes in the East, and those gentlemen, to a man, constantly voted on
the fide of the Minister; by which it seemed that there was some
collusion.
Sir Tiomas Rumbold was exceedingly happy that the affairs in the
Raft were likely to be the fubjedt of serious invettigation ; but wished
the matter might not be done in secret, as many things mi^ht occur
to a by-stander, which might give an insight into the business, which
perliaps the Committee were not apprized of. The documents at the
Indiashoufe were exceedingly voluminous, and though he meant not
to call the least reflexion on either the Directors or Clerks there, he
thought he could himfelf find out in five minutes what would not be
come at by them in as many days. Not only so, but when they
thought they had obtained every necessary information, they might
be deceived; and as an instance he produced a letter, dated a con
siderable time back, from the Presidency of Bengal to that of Madras,
wherein it was mentioned to be the last; whereas he was certain, and
could prove it, that other letters had passed since that time. Other
instances, no doubt, would happen, whereby the Committee, the
House, and the Public would be deceived ; for which reason he could
not approve of a Secret Committee. He also wished that their power
might be extended, and that the affairs of the East-Indies, ever since
1773, should also come under their consideration. His having a feat
in that House he esteemed an honour; but was never so happy in fit
ting there, as on the present occasion, when perhaps his own conduct
might be enquired into. He was conscious that during his residence
in India, his conduct had been such as not to deserve reproach ; and
so far from wishing it should pass without an investigation, he was
glad to find it would be put in his power to wipe away any idea of
stigma upon him, that might rest in the mind of any man.
Mr. Burke also wished, that other tranfa&ions in the East, besides
that which had lately happened in the Carnatic, should be considered
by the Committee, and that it should be free for any one to go into
the room to hear their proceedings. The Hon. Gentleman who
spoke lad had produced one instance of the necessity thereof: many
others probably might be brought; more than this, the minds of
men were naturally somewhat prejudiced, and when in secret, they
might come to such resolutions as they would be more cautious in
doing, if the public eye was-upon them. He had himfelf fat lately
on a Committee, which was nopleafant matter: but if he had fat in
secret, it would have rendered it doubly unpleasant. When public
affairs are agitating, the Public ought to have an opportunity of
hearing what passes.
Mr. Jenki/fon observed, that he imagined the reason of the noble
Lord's proposing a Secret Committee, was only for the fake of expe
diting the business; and as the resolutions, &c. would be laid before
the House, the Public would be then informed of every proceeding;
and therefore mull think a secret one the most eligible.
Mr. Fox totally differed both with the last Hon. Gentleman and the
noble Lord. Proceedings of a public nature ought not to be carried
on in private. If this came to a ballot, it was not improbable that
the noble Lord would be enabled to form it according to his own
mind, and probably they would determine that Hyder Ally was the
cgpfe. The fa&, arising fiom the cause, not the opinion of any set
of men, was, he humbly presumed, the only thing that could operate
as a conviction to the Public. He would suppose that a Committee
should be formed to enquire into the cause of the American War, and
he had the composing of it; perhaps such Committee would report
that the mcafures taken by Government here had been the cause.
So that he had no opinion of Committees formed in this way, and
fitting in the manner proposed. He digressed a little by adverting
to the London Gazette of Tuesday last, as a proof that Ministry
were the cause of all the troubles this country is at present involved
in. That paper, he said, was often filled with calumny and fallhood;
but what he now alluded to was relative to the orders given that no
commander of a vessel should offer to attack the ships of other nations
in the Baltic: their hands were hereby tied, and let the best oppor
tunity happen they could not embrace it. He referred to the case of
a noble Lord deceased (Lord Clive) who had amassed a large fortune
in India; a Committee was appointed to enquire into his conduct,
who reported that he had been guilty of peculation, and ought to be
punched; it was agitated in the House; he, for one, was for agree
ing to the resolution; the noble Lord in the Blue Ribbon, and he
believed the Honourable Gentleman near him (Mr. Jenkinfori) di
vided for once on the minority fide. Such was his (Lord Clive's)
gratitude, that though he had constantly opposed Ministry before,
he now thought they were so weak as to require a little support, and
therefore turned to their fide, which conduct has been invariably fol
lowed by every gentleman in that House who had the smallest rela
tion to him. This he mentioned to prove to the Hon. Baronet over
the way, that a few votes were very ufeful to the Minister. After
this digression, he concluded with giving his decided opinion, that an
open Committee was to be preferred to a secret one.
Gen. Smith not only objected to the proposition of the business be
ing done in secret, but was entering into reasons why a further
power should be given; but he was interrupted by the irregularity of
the Members, who were talking very loud ; and before the Speaker
could bring them to order, the General fat down: when the House
was a little silent, he again got up, only to inform them, that as they
seemed tired of the subject at present, he would not trouble them
any further.
Mr. Dempfer then rose to object to the proposition, and thought
that other matters relative to India ought to be examined into, and
that by an open Committee.
Lord North said, that other important matters would necessarily
arise; but if the gentlemen now to be appointed were to enter into
all the business it would involve them into a labyrinth from which
they would not easy extricate themselves; in his opinion it would be
most proper to take them separately, and this being the most recent,
ought firft to come under consideration. The objections made to its
being secret he thought were frivolous, as all their proceedings would
come before the House, and that mode would be the means of their
getting through it with greater expedition. In regard to what an
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox) had said refpe&ing the Gazette contain
i°g falfities, &c. he could not help faying he was mistaken, for he
did not believe any thing was inserted there but what really came
from our Commanders both by land and feat it was found necessary
Sometimes to make extrads from them, as they frequently contained
matter no ways material to the Public, which alone was the reason
for extracting their letters. In regard to the Proclamation hinted at
by the Hon. Gentleman, it had been thought prudent not to molest
those powers whose trade is principally carried on there, and who re
main in friendfhip with us. As to the opinions of the Committee,
that was entirely out of the question, for they were only to report
fa&s, and the causes which created them.
Mr. Fox desired the Speaker to read the motion, which concluded
with faying, that the Committee were to make observations on wha^
Raffed, and that they should be laid before the House. He was
very satirical on the noble Lord, on this head, as, in his conception,
if any man, or body of men, made observations on any matter, they
must be formed from opinion.
Mr. Burke con plimented the noble Lord as being a good advocate
in any cause, but in this case he Seemed to have forgot his brief.
Mr. Stradey said, the decision of trie House relative to a noble
Lord deceased had done honour to that Lord, and more So to thern-
Selves; and that it was illiberal now to mention what bad been the
resolution of the Committee, or what had passed; ip the House in
conlequence.
Mr. Fox rose with some degree of warmth; he wandered that any
Gentleman should charge him with illibcrality; it wai a term he was
confident the House at large would acquit him of.
Gen. Burgoyne (who was chairman of the Committee alluded to)
could not fit still when he heard any reflections call upon them; in
! private life he had a great eftecm for the deceased l.ord, but when
called on to enquire in his public conduct, he was bound in honour
to investigate the matter thoroughly, and decide accordingly.
Mr. Fox proposed an amendment, by leaving out the words of
Secrecy, on which the House divided on the original motion;
[The choice fell on the firft fifteen, and the Lord Advocate of Scot
land is appointed Chairman.]
As soon as the names had been read by the Clerk,
Lord North rose, and moved,
'' That any five or more of the fifteen make a Committee."
Mr. T. FuivnJijend reminded the House, that in the course of his
speaking upon the fubje& before, he had suggested his hopes, that in
a business of so much importance, there would be nothing of party
attempted, but that the Committee would be composed of persons of
every description, and from each fide of the House. At the time he
said this, a veteran head was shaken at the end of the Treasury-bench
[Mr. W. Ellis] which immediately bladed all his hopes, and put an
end to his expectations; from the complexion of the lift just read
over, he was now fully convinced that he had not been wrong in his
conjectures, for cxclufive of the Hon. Gentleman who flood at the
head of it (and whom the Minister had the modelly not tb pass by)
and the Representative of Cambridgeshire, who was a very young
Member, the whole lift was composed of the tried friends of Admi
nidiation, men on whom the noble Lord could depend. Such had
been his wishes, that the Committee should be a fair one, that he
begged leave to date to the House, that he had offered, if the noble
Lord would consent to chuie any four of the gentlemen with whom
he had the honour to a&, that he would agree that eleven others
fliould be added to them of the noble Lord's nomination, but this
proposal was rejected; he hoped therefore, since it had been made a
party matter, and the noble Lord had chosen not to trust any but his
tried friends, with the conduct of the enquiry, that they would,
from regard to their own credit as a party, take care that their pro
ceedings were such as would bear examination, and answer the end,
which the Public looked up to, with anxiety and impatience If they
screened one set of men, and punished another, just as should best fall
in with the views and desires of the Minister, they would merit, and
they might depend upon it they would mget with, public condemna
tion and public odium. And when he said this, he could not help
owning, that he felt some little alarm on considering, that the noble
Lord had infilled on its being a Secret Committee, and on confining
the enquiry to a particular diftri& of India, opposing every argument
that had been offered to induce him to extend it to Bengal, though
the wars in that Presidency, and the measures adopted at Calcutta,
were asserted by every gentleman competent to speak on the fubjed,
to have been the main Ipring and original cause of all our disasters in
India. Besides, what added to his jealousy was, the recollection of
all the Minister's tranfadions at the India-house, and what had pas
sed on several occalions. In particular herecollected a story, which
was in print, and had never been contradicted to his knowledge, and
this was, that the agent from the Nabob, who came over here some
years since, had offered a considerable sum to the Minister as a pre
sent from the Nabob. Though he had the honour to be on very ci
vil terms with the Duke of Grafton, he had never had an opportuni
ty of asking his Grace whether the story was founded or not; but as
it had never been contradidied, he took it for granted it was, and he
was the rather confirmed in this, from recollecting that the Nabob's
agent could not, at the time, have got a feat in Parliament, but as it
were by being nominated to a borough by the Minister.
From the mention of this, Mr. Townfhend went into a complaint
against the extension of the influence of the Nabob in this country,
and said it was reported, that the Nabob had several Members in that
House; if it was true, that by fending a sum of money over to Eng
land, he could feat eight or ten Members in that House, they were
become the most abject, the most contemptible set of beings in ex
igence, worfc than the ;lowed feum of the earth. He also complain
ed of the withholding the writs at the general election, and said he
was then down in Wiltshire, and Hampshire, attending his own
election in the latter county, and that all the writs for the county of
Wilts were with-held for a considerable time, and he believed were
in the hands of the Nabob's agent, Mr. Paul Benfield; the very
man, for whom the Ministers had gone themselves, and forced every
Clerk in office to go to the India-house to ballot, in order to prevent
an enquiry from taking place, on the grounds of several charges of
mifcondu& in India, Mr. Townfhend grew warm on this point,
and said it was from the Minister's screening delinquents, when they
came from India, that all the evils in that quarter of the globe had
originated, and if matters were fuffered to go on there, as they had
lately been conduced, odious and abhorrent as the conduct of the
Spaniards on their firft discovery and conquest of America, Lad uni
versally been held to be, by every writer, who had treated upon the
fubjedt, Pill more odious and more detestable should we, as a nation,
be looked upon for our conduct in India. After descanting for some
time on this, Mr. Townfhend went back to the fubjeCt of the ballot
for a Secret Committee, and said he could not help remarking, that
when the Committee of Scrutineers were appointed, the noble Lord
in the Blue Ribband was remarkably vociferous in nominating his
own friends, and was also nominated himfelf, which struck him as
very extraordinary ; the Committee of the preceding day being, he
believed, the firft Committee of Scrutineers that ever had the hon
our of a Blue Ribband in it. Another circumstance, which he thought
liable to some suspicion, was, that three Members of Parliament,
who went into the room where the Scrutineers were examining the
ballot, were, he understood, turned out; on this occasion, he would
mention names; the gentlemen he meant therefore were, Sir Har
bord Harbord, Sir Wm. Guise, and Sir Robert Lawley, men not re
markable for the turbulence of their temper, nor very likely to have
given the Committee of Scrutineers any great interruption; on this
matter he built other arguments to create a doubt of the good that
would ensue from the Committee, and in particular, he said, it re
minded him of a story he had once heard. A man named Jonas,
whose profefficn, he believed, was pretty generally known to the
House, was down once at a public watering-place, and happened to
walk into a room where some persons were playing at hazard; Jonas
continued a looker on for some time and, as it appeared afterwards,
was a closer observer than the persons at play liked, for when he went
away, a waiter was dispatched after him to tell him, that he must not
go into that room again. Surprized at this message, Jonas asked, if
he had given any offence to either of the persons who were playing ?
He was answered, that he had not, but that they did net chafe any
Mr. Gregory 249
Sir A. Ferguson 161
Lord Advdtate x6o
Secretary at War 160
Mr. Richard Jackson 160
Mr. Attorney General 158
Mr. Solicitor General 157
Lord Lewifham 157
Mr. Thomas Orde 156
Mr. Macdonald 151
Mr. North 149
Mr. P. Yorke, of Cam. 146
Mr. De Grey 145
Mr. Ellis 143
Sir Geo. Howard 143
House ts Commons, l^cdnflaj, May 2.
THE Report from the Scrutineers of the ballot for a Committee
to enquire into the causes of the war in the Carnatic was delivered in,
when the numbers appeared as follows:
The House being refiimed, it was agreed that the Committee
should be balloted for this day.
After this Lord North moved, that the usual rules should be ob
served by this as in all former secret Committees, with the addition
that they be allowed to adjourn from time to time, and place to place,
as may be found convenient, which was agreed to.
M:. Burke no
Mr. Huffey 107
Mr. Montague 106
Mr. T. Townfhend 105
Lord John Cavendish 104
Mr. Boughton Rous 102
Mr. Bates Rous 102
Hon. W. Pitt 101
Mr. Fox 101
Mr. Richard Smith 99
Mr. Barre 97
Mr. Dudley I.ong 97
Hon. John Townfhend 96
Gen. Burgoyne 95
I^l F° r London immediately,
The Ship MARS,
Captain Walter Dowdall;
, fatf 7^ hi A fine flout vessel, to fail with or without convoy.
,14} For Freight of about three hundred barrels, or Pas-
Yfggs&zifi|fage, having good accommodations, apply to the
i^L^^^=}^faid Captain on board, at Champneys's wharf, or
GREENWOOD & LEGGE,
July .34 1781.. J No. 44, on the Bay.
COLIN M'LACHLAN,
At No. 38, on the Bay, second Door South of Elliot street,
HAS again begun Business, returns Thanks to his former
Customers, and fliall be much obliged by a Renewal of their
Favours, hoping to serve them 011 equal 'Ferms with any.
He has AT PRESENT FOR Sale,
JAMAICA and other Rum
Madeira and Port Wines by
the Gallon and Dozen
Loaf and Mufcovado Sugar
Hyfon and Bohea Teas
Sherry Wine of the firft Quality
Any Orders from the Gentlemen of the Navy and Army front
Town and Country gratefully acknowledged, and executed with all
poflible Attention and Dispatch.
N. B. Part of a Cellar and back Storage Room to let.
_. No. 54, Qyeen-ftreet,
F L ^^ Barrek ^ road Clo:hs of fashionable Co
, , Soap in Boxes lours, with Trimmings
Mustard in half & quarter pound Negro Cloathing, blue, red and
ni°. es white
Blacking Ball and lampblack Mens and Womens Silk and
1 amts ground in Oil Thread Stockings
Lmt.eed Oil in Jars from one to A neat Affortraent'of LuteUrin^
three Gallons . Gin in Ca's , °
Cordage from 3to 7^ Inches & c . &c. &c.+
Co-Partnership of Lamotte & Geyer .being dis.
solved by mutual consent on the 11th of Tuly, it is reouefted that
all those indebted to the said company, will difeharge 'their debt,
immediately; and all those who have any demands against the said
co-partnership, are desired to render in their accounts *o
, JOHN GEYER, No. 87, Church-street,
# Mho begs leave to inform his Friends in particular and the Public
in general, that he means to continue the business; and has for file
cn the most reasonable terms, a general assortment of EUROPEAN
and EAST-INDIA GOODS, suitable to the season.
For L OND O N,
To foil nvitb Convoy,
The SHIP LONDO N,
John Rainier, Master;
Part of her cargo already engaged; for freight of the
remainder, or passage halving good accommodations, apply to the
Captain, Messrs. George Ancrum, & Co. or
1 GREENWOOD & LEGGE, No. 44, Bay.
To be LEASED upon such ?nodcrate terms as cannot in reason ^
objected against,
A Valuable WHARF; also, a I,OT of LAND upon the
Bay, whereon are brick foundations with the wails almost <n 0
tire, which with very little expence may be rendered dwelling ° r
ware houses, the situation agreeable, and as convenient for trade as
any part of the town; likewise, to be hired out, a Negro Man, who
is a plain cook, good waiting man and boatman. Enquire of tae
Printers. *L.
A LL persons anywise indebted to the late ICiUiam C/fflu^
" of Charleftown, house-carpenter, deceased, are hereby
called upon to difeharge their refpedive debts ; and those who#
have any demands to deliver them in. properly attested, to
t JOHN DEAS, Administrator.
Garris on orde rs,
July a&b, i,Bx.
ALL aggoners, Carters and Draymen, are hereby forbid
^^^ their llor fes in the Streets: Any Person found
anting in Disobedience of this Order, will be taken into Custo
dy, and fined according to the Laws of the Province.
All Negroes found galloping Horses in the Streets, will
be put into Confinement inthe Sugar-House, for the Space of
i' S t; '" ( "" erent Guards and Sentries in the Garrison
also the I rovoft Marshal and Town-Serjeant, are hereby dire&:
ed to attend to the above Orders, and secure all Offenders
C. F R ASER, Town-Major.
7.^^ For LUNDON,
The Ship P ALLA S,
George Cleeland, Master;
* "'" known for a fine ship, and a remarkable faft
mounting 14 guns, with men anfwcrable,
having great part of her cargo already provided,
will fail as soon as loaded, with or without convoy,
as most agreeable to the shippers. For freight or passage, having ex
cellent accommodations, apply to the Captain on board, or to
t WILLIAM SMITH, No. 33. Bay.
should bob on but er.HM : ^ ph. M the fr e ^ ^„
1 his teemed to have been pr.t:y nnwh the case with the Conurb^ '2
of Scrutineers: Before Mr. Townfhend hit down, he re- cetJ ^°
hopes, that the Committee would not beccim the pliant tecL'of ti"
Minister, and ra her aim at carrying bis wifb.es into practice
screening his friendsgthan do fh^ judice, by bringing the cut;
or rather those who fhould.appear to be guilty, be they who ^to
might, before the bar ofoe y
fit. Ord rose to bate, that from not being aware that the Corn
mittee of Scrutineers was an open Committee, on obftrviny the thr^
Members (mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman) in the room; v^ e
the Committee were scrutinizing the ballot, he had publicly' ^d
if it was right, that they should be present; on which they witf'
drew, but on his being informed, that it was an open Committed
they were called to and r^pufted to come back. Mr. Ord fadb
thought it right to give this explanation, in order to refcoe the Com'
mittee of Scrutineers from blame, becaufc if any blame were
was due to him alone.
Sir Pbdi, Jennings Clerke said a great deal about the Secret and
Committees that had been chosen in 1772, and the rrfult f
them, charging those Committees with having done no service to
Public, and afcribmg all the evil consequences that had followed
them, to the Minister s interference in appointing them. In like
manner, he laid, the Minister was acting now; for he had seen
clearly, that those who generally voted with Administration had
been complaisant enough to ballot for what was called the Tre'afurr
lift. Sir Philip said, he differed from his honourable friend with
regard to the having the Secret Committee conlift of four of their
friends, and eleven friends of the Mmiftei's; he had rather a, th
case was circumstanced, have the whole Committee of the latter's at'
pointing, because he did not with that any of his friends (hod fa
1" the F^ ; f % if ^ rcfult ° f t!w ^^^^ was such as he e.y ebted
he mud of necessity be obliged to consider any of his friends vfo
were on the Committee, as ^fofo vtofo.. Sir Philip also ook
notice, that wherever any of the Minority were blended 'in a Co
mittee with the Minister s adherents, they were won over and
nerally voted with the Minister afterwards. ' °
JAMES M'MURRAY, & Co.
•JUST IMPORTED,
And to BE SOLD BY
[To BE CONTINUED.]
Coffee and Chocolate
Pickles
Snuff irt Bottles and Bladders
Porter, Cheese, Mustard & Pepper
Gin, Shrub, Sago andlfinglari
&c. &c. &c.