The New-Jersey gazette — Burlington [N.J.], 1782-09-18 00:00:00, page 2

Tuesday the 3d day of September next.
HOUSE of'COMMONS,
July 9, 1782.
A correspondent has favoured us with the follow
ing particulars refpeding the debate in the house
of commons, on Tuesday last, which our read
ers will not find inaccurate, or unworthy of their
perusal.
MR. Fox, in the course of his speech, declared
that his motives for religning were, a differ
ence refpeding the meat, of peace with America ;
the Earl of Shelburne having determined to make
independence the price of peace, but himfelf hav
ing maintained that American independence, in all
its extent, must be firft declared, and that then
Overtures towards peace might be made. He could
not call this contrariety of opinion by such gentle
name as a Ihade of difference, for he verily believed,
that on the determination of this one point depend
ed peace or war, depended therefoie the ruin or
salvation of these empires. That on this question,
a council had met on Wednesday fe'ennight, where
in he had found his voice disregarded; that on the
Sunday following (being the day preceding Lord
Rockingham's death) he had again called together
his Majesty's confidential servants at his own house,
where, finding the fame question, after a renewed
dispute, again carried against him, he had formerly
declared his fixed intention to resign, but that be
ing persuaded not to disturb Lord Rockingham's
mind, by so instant a step, he had waited until his
Lordihip\ decease; and the noble Earl's fuccefficn
to the vacant place, had rendered it perfectly clear
to him, that those measures which alone he could
advise, and for which alone he would bear respon
sibility, were become far less likely to be pursued.
He had differences also refpe&ing the East India
company, and said, that after the example of los
ing a western world, it behoved Ministers to fee to
it that they lose not an eastern world also. Mr.
Fox also hinted that there was an intention in the
Earl of Shelburne to restore to the crown the ex
ercise of its negative; he feared left the long dis
use of this part of its prerogative, might render
such innovation alarming to the people. “ What
(said he) when Parliament is at last brought to
speak the pure language of the people, to have one
foul with them, one desire with them, Oh! now it
would become necessary for the crown to bring its
negative into exercise."
“ General Conway said, that he could not yet
fee so great difference in that Right Honourable
Gentleman's sentiments, as to warrant him in the
breaking up of the cabinet; their principles dill
appeared to him to be the fame, though in the pro
.fecution of the fame principles, among eleven peo
ple, there would be, for he must be allowed to call
them so, a shade of difference. The Honourable
Gentleman had done him the honour to ascribe his
continuance in office to that weakness of under
standing which he laboured under; no doubt, there
fore, it was owing to his weakness in that part,
that he could not really fee what great difference it
made, whether you give the Americans independ
ence, by throwing it at their heads (which was all
the Right Honourable Gentleman had wished to do)
or whether you bring it in as a condition of peace;
that for his own part he had little doubt of procur
ing peace with them ;and, peace procured, the end of
each would be answered. As for what the Right
Honourable Gentleman, through his wonderful sa
gacity, might forefee in the intentions of the Earl
of Shelburne, he would only fay that he could not
think, at so awful a crisis as the present, when una
nimity was so essential to our negociations, and to
all our measures; an apprehension that the firft
Lord of the Treasury may, five years hence, in
tend measures not altogether corresponding with
the Right Honourable Gentleman's individual sen
timents, was a fufficient reason why the Right Ho
nourable Gentleman should, at this time, with
draw his abilities and support from his Majesty's
Councils.
Mr. Burke, being interrupted in the outset of
will enable me to obtain fair and reasonable terms
of pacification. The moil triumphant career of vic
tory would not excite me to aim at more; and I
have the fatisfadion to be able to add, that 1 fee
no reason which should induce me to think of ac
cepting less.
Then the Lord Chancellor, by his Majesty's
command, said.
My Lords and Gentlemen,
It is his Majesty's royal will and pleasure, that
this Parliament be prorogued to Tuesday, the 3d
day of September next, to be then here holden ;
and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to
of his speech.
The Honourable William Pitt fail, he could not
think the retreat of the Right Honourable Gentle
man (Mr. Fox) warrantable, at a crisis like the
present; that his singular abilities marked him to be
publick property, that whatsoever he heard th^t
night, went only to convince him that the ffuggle
had been a struggle for power, and that the quar
rel had been a quairel with men and not with mea
sures. An Honourable Gentleman (Mr. burke)in
one part of his speech, had talked of Cataline and
Cato, as if the Earl of Shelburne, and the Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Burke) were an apt
parallel : The Hon. Gentleman had laid, " Would
Cato fuffer Cataline to become a Consul ?" He
should ask him in return, " But would Cato have
“ taken Cataline for his Colleague?" He had there
fore to learn yet, why, having once embarked with
the Earl of Shelburne in the fame veflel, that No
ble Earl pursuing still the fame course, the Right
Honourable Gentleman fliould carry competition so
far as to forfake the ship in this hour of its extre
mity? The loss of the late Marquis was great in
deed; it was enough to have loft him; he could
not, therefore, but deplore that a calamity in itfelf
acknowledged fufficiently great, should draw after
it consequences so unfortunate. Mr. Pitt, in the
coarse of his speech, hinted, that his Majesty had
offered him a place in the new Administration, which
he hoped he had not impatiently aspired after.
Mr. Fox, Mr. Burke, and Mr. Conway, having
been often up to explain,
Mr. Lee, Solicitor General, said he rose to de
clare, that he was among those men who could not
give their confidence to the new First Lord of the
Treasury, and that he had therefore given notice of
his resignation.
A Right Honourable Gentleman had said, it was
men and not measures that were obnoxious. He
begged to know what it was that made measures but
men; it was like talking of effeifts without causes;
and he insisted that whosoever aded in subordinati
on to any Administration, ought well to confider
his speech, by some members crouding towards the
door, said, with some agitation, that his deep re
fpe& for the greater part of that house, and his in
effable contempt of those, who, at an hour like this,
when the fate of Britain hung suspended, and when,
here the members taking their places, Mr.
Burke proceeded : He declared, that he had no
confidence in the new Administration, that they
were a thousand times worie than the last with all
their fins on their head. He confeffed, he had had
some parting pangs on quitting his place, that he
loved busy life, that he loved, of all things, that
place with which his Majesty, in great goodness,
had vouchfafed to honour him; be, loved the view
from his window into the park ; he loved to fee sol
diers cxercifed, and he believed every man that
knew him, would fay, that he was fond of business.
He pretended not to great things, he had been spend
ing all his life in railing a little ant-hill, but it was
all kicked down, and he had now such another ant
hill to begin again: that from his nature he would
have never chose the cold climes of opposition, but
he had ever been forced into it; it was a melancho
ly thought, but that he now believed he was doom
ed to spend his whole life in opposition. He solemn
ly protested, that a total want of confidence in the
new fiift Lord of the Treasury was his motive of
giving up a very desirable place. After passing great
eulogiums on every part of the character of the late
Marquis,he said, he thought the proper successor to
such a man would have been whosoever was most
like to him; that the Duke of Portland was a man
remarkable for uniting, in himfelf, all those talents
of the head and heart, which had distinguished that
most noble Marquis: But it was singular that the
successor of the late noble Marquis wairin every tin
gle refped totally unlike him.—l he noble Earl
might have his virtues, but they were so different,
that he could not find in him the lead trace of his
departed friend.
Mr. Burke then adverted to that part of Gene
ral Conway's speech, in which he had ascribed the
secession of the party to their wonderfully nice un
derstanding; for his part, he pretended not to any
nicity of understanding, he had been used to read
plain books; and he remembered to have read even
in his infancy, of die Little Red Riding Hood,
when the wolf came peeping through the fence, and
said, he was grand-mamma—“ But what great eyes
you have" " 0 that is that I may eat the better."
Well, said Mr. Burke, we know Little Red Riding
Hood was eaten up, and yet we are wanting to try
again, whether the wolf will make us as good a
grand-mamma. Mr. Burke concluded with apo
logies for the warmth he had shewn in the beginning
General Conway, towards the close of his speech,
so far forgot himfelf, that in the course of mention
ing the Duke of Grafton, he said, “ It is known I
owe much to him; I owe to him my feat in Parlia
ment; it is one of the Duke's boroughs that I "
The house calling him to order, the General recofc
leded himfelf and said, that by speaking so long,
and by running into so familiar a way of conversati
on, he had indeed exceedingly forgot himfelf; no
man would be more glad to fee an amendment in
some of those boroughs than himfelf, or more wil
ling to forward it ; but the notoriety of these things
without doors was such, that he hoped he should
be forgiven for having departed a little from ftri&
order : The house smiled, and he puriued his.
speech.
From the Morning Post, July 9.
TIAT Mr. Fox has induftrioufty laboured fne
l he came into administration, to procure a tor
mal and legislative surrender of Britilh fovereig ntv
over the colonies is a fad the secretary him.
knowledges ; and his principal reason for so strong
ly enforcing this measure is founded on necessity,
he has plainly told us we are unable to support the
war, and therefore to make the best terms we can
with the revolted colonies, is the only way to save
the remainder of the empire from absolute deftrudi
on. If we admit Mr. Fox's assertion, that all our
resources are exhausted: the conclusion he draws
from such a mifcrable ftatc of publick affairs must
readily be admitted. But there are men in the ser
vice of the crown, of much greater political infor
mation than Mr. Fox, who widely differ from hinr
on these great points; they assert, that provided
the strength of the Britilh empire at this moment
be called forth, under the direction of a wife, spi
rited and virtuous administration; we have resour
ces still fufficient to shake the House of Bourbon to
its centre, and enforce the obedience of the colo
nies notwithstanding all their successes. Lord Shel
burne must surely remember what his illustrious
friend and patron, the Earl of Chatham, said in the
upper house of parliament, when only a hint wag
fuggdfted refpeCting the independency of the colo
nies, " Rather than submit," said this great man,
" to a measure so dilhonourable to this country, so
" fatal in its consequences to the Britilh empire,—
" I WILL SELL THE LAST SHIRT FROM MY BACK."
And at another moment this virtuous and able
statesman openly declared in the fame place, that
when he found such a detested measure was to be
agitated in parliament, he would bring the Royal
Offspring to their Lordlhips bar, and diredly im
peach the man who firft proposed to give away their
inheritance. The reader must observe from these
positive declarations of Lord Chatham refpeding in
dependency, that he considered the separation of
the colonics as the ruin of England, and that 01
course we ought to contribute our last fhilljng rather
than acknowledge the revolted provinces indeed,
ent of this country. Lord Shelburne was
of this great man, and to him we now look noCT
ly for a determined opposition to any formal sur
render of our colonial territory, but to a wife and
spirited prosecution of the war. It may be said that
Lord Chatham, were he now alive, would be of a
very different opinion to that he entertained when
he made the declarations above-mentioned. To
such an assertion we give a direst and positive con
tradiction. Lord Chatham would never submit to
a surrender of the colonies ; he diredly said so him
felf, and were he now alive he must be Locked to
have heard a Britifli Minister, Riled the man of the
people, fedulQully employed in surrendering their
dearest rights, and at a moment, when not only the
metropolis, but the whole island abounds in places
of entertainment and luxuries of every denominati
on. Lord Chatham would have said to Mr. Fox
secure young man, the hearts of the people by your
actions, now you are a Minister, and do not de
pend on your declarations when in opposition ; d>-
serve their confidence, and you will find the rc
fources of the country equal to all Europe; you
are called into office to save the empire, not to ru
in it; and if you fever the American colonies from
Great-Britain, by giving them independence, yo
in a tingle Broke destroy your country. Such woulc
have been the observations of that wife and virtu
ous statesman, the Earl of Chatham, and he would
have been supported by every man in this country
who has the Icaft with for its glory and prosperity
Let the people therefore look to that man whom
the noble Chatham honoured with his confidence,
and recommended him as his successor. - "
The Earl of Shelburne is that man, and he ^
whether its leaders were men of whom he had had
such experience as inspired a confidence in them; he
charged the Earl of Shelburne with having changed
his sentiments in the refped of granting independ
ence to America, declared that his verfality alone
was enough to condemn him as a Minister ; and af
ter making a handsome eulogium on the character
of the Marquis of Rockingham, added, that having
praised the dead, he fliould be glad to praise the liv
ing also, if people would but give him the fame ma
terials.
Mr. Pitt refe to reply; at half past ten the moti
on for adjournment was carried.