The New-Jersey gazette — Burlington [N.J.], 1778-04-01 00:00:00, page 1

NEW-JERSEY GAZETTE.
LONDO N, December 5.
Debate in the House of Commons on T.uefday.
(Continued from ours of March 4.)
^ p IHE question being loudly called for Mr.
' I ' Dunning rofc, and continued the debate
by a short but pointed speech. He said
he highly approved the motion of hi&
honourable friend, and he hoped that he
m would perfifi: in it to its full extent.
Thus indefinite, the Committee may enquire int®
every tranfadion of the Commissioners, and from that
investigation, every measure of the Ministry, relating
to the fame end, would be laid open. At the fame
time he owned, if his honourable friend had applied
to him as a counsel for advice on the propriety of
making such motion, he certainly should have object
ed to it, and that for this plain reafon —that such
motions now a days produce nothing but an answer.
He then reverted to the arguments of Mr. Stanley,
in regard to the discovery of individuals by the ex
posure of papers. He saw no danger that could,at
tend such exposure. If ABC and D have even en
gaged in a fair and equitable negociation, what hurt
could follow from the discovery of their names ? It is
not to be supposed, that any unfair treaty has been
entered intoj for it is a felt-evident proposition, that
tampering with an individual in an indirect manner,
could produce no decisive effort. He begged the
House to confider the peculiar propriety of the pre
sent motion. The Commission to Lord and Sir Wil
liam Howe, he said, followed upon an adt originating
in this House ; and it was the duty of this House to
examine the tranfadtions that had followed their ap
pointment. He concluded by obfe^ving, that he had
risen to speak on the fubjedt, in hopes that a further
debate might arise upon it; and that the majority
might not succeed in their clamours for a conclusion,
Confeious of their superiority in point of Number,
they are not anxious for superiority in point of ar
gument or right ; but for once he hoped, that even
argument and right would bear fomc sway in a que
stion of such magnitude and importance.
Mr. Attorney General objected to the motion, be
cause he was convinced the disclosure required, would
be prejudicial to administration, and hurtful to the
negociation, if any had taken place. The enquiry
must necessarily extend to the very commencement
of the negociation, and fift the progress and proceed
ings of a tranfadtion, which had died without con
clusion. He said, he needed not to point out the
traufa&icn referred to ; every one muse be sensible he
meant the proposition made to the Congress, and
America at. large, by the Cemmiffioners on their firft
arrival; In that short negociation, probably some
circurnftances may have occurred, which it would be
dangerous to expose. He did not know that any
had ; he was perfectly ignorant of the whole tranf
adtion; nay, he could not believe that any.had arisen,
which could affect any man ; certain, not any man
employed by the government of Britain ; but kill the
impropriety-of exposure was apparent, from the pos
sibility of such circumstances having exifter.ee. He
continued to observe, that from the conclusion of
that firft negeciation, no other could arise; that pro
duced nothing, and it entirely deprived the Com
missioners from entering into a fecund treaty. .They
Were not to treat with the Americans cr. 'the footing
of independence ; they were not to admit the.claim ;
so that nothing can have been done. .Inew negoci
ation must have its origin in this House (here the mi
nority were very loud) I repeat it, fays he, a new
negociation must take its rife in this House. lam not
ashamed to fay it; as a Member of Parliament, I
have a right to speak aloud my fenfiments, on every
subject ; but .what at this time have I said to raise the
laugh against me ? I declared that our prei'ent.Com
missioners could have no powers granted to them
from the ad, to treat with rebels in arms claiming
independence. They can have no right to conclude
a peace on the footing of foederal treaty ; and until
this House have agreed, that Britain ought to confi
der America as an independent power, which I hope
they never will, the Commiffibners cannot enter into
any negociation.
Mr. Thomas Toaunjhend answered diftindly and
pointedly the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke before him. He had declared, he said, that the
firft negociation had proved ineffectual, but had not
said for what reason it had failed; indeed Govern
ment had poorly excused the failure, by frying the
Americans had set up for independence, and would
not depart from that claim, and for that reason the
negociation failed. The Congress, on the other
hand declare, that it broke off, because Commissi
oners could not, or would not shew their powers and
commission. If the reason on our fide be t/ue, what
[Vol. I.]
WEDNESD A Y, April r, 1778.
reprehenfioh doth not Administration merit, for not
fending forth their Commissioners before the claims
of independence was set up ? He averred it as a fact,
the House know it, and the Ministry dare not deny
it, that the Commissioners were not sent out till fix
months after palling the act. This criminal or wilful
negligence gave rife to the claim of independence ;
that alone roused them to a sense of their situation,
and the danger that hung upon them. He said, he
was more surprised at an r%cz/o% that inßant brought
into the House, than ever he had been at all the for
mer instances of ministerial absurdity. We are told
here, that the papers cannot be laid before the House,
because the discovery may be hurtful to Administra
tion ; they may contain circumstances inconvenient
to be known, injurious and perhaps fatal to the ftat<
Such Was the language of the noble Lord, and yet,
mark the consequence, the motion hath fecifed in the
Upper House. The papers, and a full disclosure of
every hurtful, inconvenient, injurious, and perhaps
fatal circumstance, is to be laid before the House of
Lords. Is this a language proper for this House? L
this a treatment that the representatives of facemen
can bear? We are not to be trusted ; we must not
know fccrets ; our superiors indeed may search into
the ftafe of the nation, but cue are too dangerous, or.
tcoinfignificarit to be truiled. I will not make fur
ther comment on this affair ; it is one of thole.glar
ing abides which firikes to the heart without eluci
dation.
Lord North rose to attempt an excuse for refilling
to pass the motion in the one House, when it had
palled in the other; in the course of his ipeech he
grew exceedingly warm and inflamed. He dill per
sisted, he said, to declare, that the disclosure of such
papers might be inconvenient, dangerous, and per
naps fatal ; and whatever elicit the anecdote brought
into the House, might hare on the minds of the House
at large, he would kill continue to object to the
motion. 11l the other House, there were Noblemen
servants of the King, entrusted with every secret of
the Administration, who know the genius and the
spirit of the House, and were the proper judges of
what ought, and what ought not to come before
them. He supposed they knew there was no crime
in the papers called for, nothing that they were afraid
or ashamed of bringing to light ; but for his part,
he was of opinion, no papers ought to be produced
and made publick relating to a negociation, before
the negociation was concluded ; that was his opini
on, and he would prove his principles by his prac
tice. He concluded, by observing, that the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke before him, behaved difrp
fpedfully to the House in the lab degree; he w'ould
not fay he had done so vuilfally, but perhaps the heat
of debate' had urged him too far.
Mr. Thomas Towfhend juftihed himfelf frem the
aspersion of difrefpeC, and threw it upon the noble
Lord. His conduct, he averred; in the prefect in
fiance, was the height of difrefpe&, since he had
declared, he durst not trait tee noufe with a secret
that all the world would know.
Governor Johnfone said, he was very sorry to fee the
Premier in a pafar, though, he owned; there was
fufiicient cause to make any Member in aptfion. It
was a species of intuit which the House of Commons
never experienced before, and on the records of the
House, would appear incredible to future generati
ons. The afferiion, that be durst not produce them,
because the disclosure might be fatal, was beyond
every thing he had ever heard, when, at the fame
time, they were produced within two hundred yards
of the fame place, and rendered notorious to all the
world. Such curious conduct excited curiosity to
search into its cause; and the only probable reason
that he could assign for admitting them into one, and
refufing them to the other, was, that the guardian
Peers of the realm were perhaps so listless and indo
lent, that they would not look at the papers, nor
would any fecreb transpire : whereas the assiduity and
curiosity of the Commons would examine every item,
and become acquainted with every circumstance.
However that may be, continues the Governor, it
is an anecdote worthy preservation, and I hope it will
be imprinted on the minds of every individual Mem
ber in the House. He said, he thought it necessary
to inform the House, that on a future day, he would
move the House to go into a Committee to confider
the situation of the Taft-India territories of Britain.
He averred, that, with the lets of America, we
should indisputably feel the loss of the Indies. They
were in the most critical situation, and demanded
the most serious attention of the State. The mode
of government eflablilhed in the Indies, contained
within itfelf the lever of its fall. It had never been
the fortune of any wide extended empire to form
T HE
permanent colonization, till Britain found the happy
expedient, and by transplanting her own excellent
Government into America, where it grew, and
would have flourished in its original pride, had not
the fatal axe of unfair taxation cut the tree to the
ground. He would recommend, he said, a new
mode of government for the Eall-Indies, and he was
allured, unless such a mode was adopted, the rich
territory would be for-ever loit. He also would
move the House on a future day, he said, to permit
him to produce papers, to prove that the colonies
of Britain did; and do pay taxes, heavy taxes, and
in every degree proportionate to the supplies granted
in this country. He meant, that they were taxed,
he said for their own internal support, for clearing
the waste lands, for the establishment of civil pow
er, &c.
Colonel Barre said he would make one grave ob
servation, viz. that when we were about to plunge
into the American war, it was common to fee ten or
twelve Members rife at once to promote the measure ;
but now that we are talking of peace, hardly an ad
vocate can be found to speak in its favour. He ob
served, that he had been long accustomed to assist
a Minority. He knew not the reason, but there was
a somewhat in his heart that induced him to assist
the v:ea^ ; for that reason, he said, he should be
excused if for One night he joined the Premier, as he
for a Bonder was in a Minority. He has spoke, con
tinues he, with great candour, good sense, and solid
judgment ; but unfortunately he is in a Minority ; and
I have been long convinced, that more than candour,
sense, and judgment, are necessary to fupporta Mi
nority. Perhaps some people may disbelieve that his
Lordfllip if in a, Minority. I will explain it to them.
His Lobdfinp is one of those Ministers who form the
Cabinet Junto; there is one more only of the fame
junto in this House; but there arefi% I believe, in
the other House ; therefore his Lordship is in a Mi
nority. I told some time ago, that there was a di
vfnn in the Junto, Yen No,, Mr. Speakers mv
words are verified ; —there is a division. And as the
noble Lord has declared that they have endangered
the Jiate, and assented to disclose secrets that may be
inconvenient and fatal, I advise him to impeach them ;
let him instantly impeach them, and I pledge my ho
nour I will assist him ;---I long to impeach them.
Lord North spoke a few words in reply ; said he
was not much accustomed to Minorities, and hoped
he would be in a Majority that night.
Mr. iPe&erburne called back the attention of the
House to the question. He said, since ever the anec
dot- had arrived, the debate had dwelt on that, the
pa/iem of the Minister, and on Majorities and Mi
norities. As to the frjl, he said, he could not, in
law or logic, find a reason for concluding, that be
cause the question had passed in one place, it ought
to do so in another. As to the second, he did not
conceive that the Minister was in a paffion ;---he was
obliged, indeed, to raise his voice on account of the
clamours of other people. Andas to the third, he
could not rightly judge what the honourable gentle
inan meant by the terms Majority and Minority; he
could not fee any cause for fufpebting the noble Lord
to be in a Minority because the Ministers in the other
House had jiot perhaps a&ed the fame part with
him. But it was impossible, he said, to determine
on what grounds the question had passed ; there
might be an alteration in the terms and form of the
motion ; circumstances, not mentioned in the com
mons may have arisen there ; or probably, as an ho
nourable gentleman advanced, they may have been
so well acquainted with the genius and complexion
of the House, that they may have thought themselves
secure in trusting them. He then reverted to the
motion, and urged, that it was conceived in such
general and indefinite terms, that during the existence
of the negociating power and flagrante bello, the
discovery of papers might be truly fatal.
Mr. Dunning toole merit to himfelf ; he said, from
being the cause of continuing the debate since he
had introduced an anecdote of the utmost consequence,
and which he hoped would penetrate to the heart of
every Member in the House, he was sorry, he said,
that the honourable gentleman who spoke before him
affected to be ignorant of the terms Minority and
Majority; he was certain, if he pleased, he could give
a very clear definition of them, for he was occaftonally
an adherent of both. He did not think, however,
that the noble Lord would be in a Minority unless
he had.given inftrudions to some of his adherents
to leave him. (Here the Speaker called him to or
der) when he declared he had broke no point of
order, and thought himfelf juffified in proceeding.
That the noble Lord would be of a Majority he was
convinced, and therefore he could wiih to address
[Numb. 18.]