The royal gazette — [Charleston] S.C., 1781-08-22 00:00:00, page 4

Parliamentary Proceedings.
House of Commons. Friday, May 4.
ftlE joUchor-Geueral having brought up- the bill for put-
I ting a Top to entertainments and debates on religious -
Tubjedts on the evening of the Lord's Day, and proposing that
it should be lead a firft time, anti that being done, and a pro
pofitiurr made that it ihoukl be read a second time,
G Lord Surrey ro;/ to give Lis hearty concurrence to find bnl,
Snd was glad to Iffid it came from so learned a gentleman,
particularly as he reprefepted 4 learned bpdy of men, (the
Univerfity'of Cambridge); but he,thought that other matters
might very properly, and from experience were necedary to
be mfro^ced into the bill ; what he particularly referred to
teas, that of itd§e, coaches travelling on Sundays, and taking
an extraordinary number 'of passengers on the outside, to the
,great inconvenience of thole within, and danger to. those
without. He therefore hoped the learned gentleman wou.d
add a clause to prevent the fame hi future. ..
Mr. HGL^ argued againit the bill; he could not conceive
any reason why men fho.uld b'e cramped in their religious len
timents. Ifany imtnorality or indecency could be proved to
have palled at the places alluded to, in his conception the
laws, already in being were fufficient, with the affikance of
(the Civil Magiftmt", to annihilate them. The fame argument
Was good hi reg.cd.to Rage coaches, waggons, &c. travelling
on Sundays, as the laws some years ago passed gave full pow- .
er to Iftagiil rate's to exert their authority to prevent any in
convenience which might arile from their travelling 011 Sun
days. He would not fay more on the.fiibjed at present, as he
wished th referee himfelf to the second reading of the bid,
Which he hoped the learned gentleman would postpone for a
few days, that gentlemen might have an opportunity to con
fider the matter fcrioufly, and arrange their thoughts in such
manner as to deliver their opinions in such way as was nc^>
fafy on fcleriohs an occafiori.
The Solicitor General did not object to the second reading
being propafed, and accordingly moved that Wednesday next
be appointed for that purpose.
[This. Bill recites that certain boufes, rooms, or places
Witnin the cities of London and Weftminifter, or in t he
neighbourhood. thereof, have of late frequently been opened
for public eritcrUinfuent dr amusement, upon the evening
cf the Lord's day 'commonly called Sunday; and at othc r
routes, repms or-places within the said cities, or in the neigh
bouruuod thereof, under pretence of enquiring into religi
ous doctrines, and explaining texts of'Holy Scripture, de
^cs have frequently bAn held.on the evening of the Lord's
day, concerning divers texts of Holy Scripture by pciions un
learned, and incompetent to explain the fame, to the corruption
As Food morus had to the great encouragement of irreligion
anef prohmeiieL: It therefore enads, That, after a certain
time to be mentioned, ary house, room, or other place which
Ihall be opened for public entertainment or amusement, or for
•publicly debating on any fubjed whatsoever, upon any part of
the Lord's day celled Sunday, and to which persons shall be
admitted by the payment of money, or by tickets fold for
knoney, ihah be decided a disorderly house or place ; and the
-keeper cf such house, room, or place, shall forfeit a particular
sum to be mentioned in the bill, for every day that such house,
room or place shall be opened or used as aforefaid on the Lord s
day, to such perlon as will sue for the fame, and be otherwise
pmmKabk, as the law directs; and tne person conducing such
.entertainment on the Lord', day, or acting as Maker of the
• Ceremonies, or as Moderator, President, or Chairman, shall
likewise be liable to a penalty to be mentioned in the bill ; and
every doorkeeper, servant, or other person, who shall receive
money or tickets from persons assembling at such house, room,
or place, shall also be liable to certain penalties.
It also recites, by reason of the many subtle and crafty con
trivances of persons keeping such houses, rooms, or places as
aforefaid, it Tay be often difficult to prove who is the real
owner cr keeper thereof; and therefore enacts, that any per
son who shall aft as maker or mistress, or as the person having
the care, or management of any such house, room, or place,
shall be deemed the keeper thereof, and shall be liable to be
Tied and punched as such, notwithstanding he or the be not in
fact tire real owner thereof; and wherever any such house,
room, or place, shall belong to divers persons in partnership,
as joint owners, gr joint keepers thereof, each joint owner, or
joint keeper shall be deemed the keeper thereof, and shall be
liable to be prosecuted and punlfhed as filch : and any house,
room, or place, at #hich persons shall be supplied with tea,
coffee, or any otheb refrefhments of eating or drinking, on the
Lord's day, at any greater prices than the common and usual
prices, at which the like refrefhments are commonly fold upon
other days at such house, or at coffee houses, or other houses
where the fanpe. are usually fold, shall be deemed a house,
room, or place to which persons are admitted by the pay
ment of money, although money be not there taken at the
time when persons enter into or depart from such house, room,
or place.
And for the better preventing persons assembling on the
Lord's day for such irreligious purposes as aforefaid, it enacts,
that, after a time to be mentioned, any person advertising any
public entertainment or amusement, or any public meeting
for debating on any fubjedt whatsoever, on the Lord's day,
shall be liable to a certain penalty, to be mentioned by the
bill.'',
There is a clause limiting the time of bringing actions, and
a proviso, that the ecclesiastical jurisdiction shall not by this
aft be altered or abridged, but may punish the said offences as
if this ad had not been made.]
Sir George Scarille rose, in conformity to the notice he had
given, to move, that the petition presented by his colleague,
feme time since, signed by 32 names of refpedablc gentlemen,
complaining of certain grievances therein alledged, and pray
ing relief, might be referred to a Committee; but, before he
offered his motion, Sir George took notice, it would necessa
rily be expected that he should fay something on the fubjed.
In the firft place then, as the Petition had been full five weeks
upon the table of the House, he hoped that gentlemen would
not think he was extremely impatient, or bent upon teizing
them, by desiring that something farther might now be done
refpe&ng it. Its objects were these: firft it stated, " that this
nation had been engaged for several years in a most expensive
pnd unfortunate war ; that many of our valuable Colonies had
actually declared themselves independent, and had formed a
Tria confederacy with the autient enemies of Great-Britain ;
that the consequences of these combined misfortunes had been
a large addition to the national debt, a heavy accumulation of
taxes, a rapid decline of the trade, manufactures, and land
rents .of the kingdom: that notwithstanding this calamitous
#nd impoverished bate of the nation, much public money had
been . igiproyidently squandered, and that many individuals
enjoyed linecure places, efficient,places, with exorbitant emo
luments, and pensions unmerited by public service, to a large
and Till encreafing amount, whence the Crown had acquired
a great and unconstitutional influence, which, if not checked,
might soon prove fatal to the liberties of this country : and
the Petitioners farther shewed, that they jointly with other
freeholders of several counties, and electors of several cities
and towns in this kingdom,, in the last session of the late Par
liament, presented to the Hon. House of Commons, an hum
ble Petition, requesting that some remedy might be provided
House of Commons, Tuesday, May 8.
After opening this, Sir George said, a Petition exactly firai
lar in all its principal allegations, he had the honour of pre
fentirig from the county of York last year, when the House
had been pleased, in some fort, to acknowledge the truth of
the contents, and had come to the resolutions upon it, which
were entered upon the Journals, and were alluded to in the
present Petition. It would be right therefore to fee if any
thing had happened since, to render the present Petition not
worthy the attention of the House ; and firft with regard to
the complaint of the improvident expenditure of the public
money, had that been altered and corrected ? So far from it,
that the present year was begun with the Minister's railing
twelve millions, and letting the greatest part of that sum lie
in the hands of private individuals, from March to November,
without interest. Nor was this all; the money was borrowed
on such disadvantageous terms for the public, that it was fair
to deem the loan an infamous bargain, and perhaps it would
not be going too far to call it an infamous job, but of that the
people at large would judge, from feeing the greatest part of
it distributed among their representatives, whose duty it was,
to have taken care that the Ministers made the belt bargain
that could possibly be obtained for the public, and not to have
so tota ly disregarded that part of what they owed their con
stituents, as to have become iharers in the public spoil, With
refpeft therefore to the extravagant profusion, the ground of
complaint was enlarged rather than narrowed, since the last
year. With regaid to the influence of the Crown, which the
lalt Parliament had resolved to have increased and to be increa
sing, was that diminilhed? Most certainly it was net ; on the
contrary, every division in that House shewed that the new
Parliament had given the Minister new strength. What had
been done then, in compliance with the Petitions of the people?
The only thing that he knew of was, the Commiflion of Ac
counts, and that, though he did not mean to detract from
the merit of the present Commissioners, had been managed by
the noble Lord in the Blue Ribband in a way that was liable
to much objection. An honourable friend of his near him,
had upon repeated experience of the perplexing and unfatis
fadory accounts of the extraordinaries of the army, and of
various branches of the public expenditure, proposed a Com
mission of Accounts, but undoubtedly he did not mean to part
with the best and most essential privileges of Parliament ; his
Hon. friend meant a Committee of 'Members es that House,
who would have had the power, when they had investigated
the public accounts, to have instantly rendered their enquiry
effectual, by moving such measures as the result of their inve
stigation might render necessary. The noble Lord in the Blue
Ribband had thought proper to take the bill out of the hands
of his Hon.friend, and had not only nominated his own Coin
missioners, but had given them a salary of 10001. a year each,
so that instead of lessening the number of Placemen, and di
minilhing the public expence, as the Petitions of the people
had requested, the noble Lord had added to both.
Being told by Colonel Barre, that the Commissioners had no
salary, Sir George corrected himfelf, and said, he underftod,
he was mistaken. The commissioners had no salary ; he was
glad he was set right, for he had much rather at any time go
but half-way in his argument, than over Rate any particular
fafl. But what had the Commissioners done? They had gone
into an enquiry as to the public money remaining in the
hands of several accountants, and after afeertaining what the
several films amounted to, and in whose hands they were lod
ged, had reported the fame to the House. What was there
in all this, which a Committee of Members of the House, as
sembled in one of the rooms above Lairs, was not equally
competent to with the present Commissioners? or why might
not any four idle Loras of the Treasury have done the bu
siness ? The Treasury-Board was paid for the especial purpose
of managing and fuperin tending the public expenditure, but
perhaps some of the Lords considered the firft Lord as the on
ly acting officer, and regarded their own places as so many
comfortable sinecures. Sir George added a variety of other
arguments, and at length concluded with desiring that the
Petition be read by the Clerk at the table; this being com
plied with, Sir George afterwards moved, “ That the Peti
tion be referred to the consideration of a Committee of the
whole House."
Mr. Dunning rose to second the motion, and said he had
several matters to offer to the House upon the fubjeft, which
he should reserve the mention of, till the debate was further
advanced.
Mr. Duncombe supported the Petition, and said, he was
convinced that the majority, not only of his constituents, but
of the people without doors at large, coincided in sentiment
with the Petition ; he therefore most heartily concurred in
the motion made by his Hon. colleague.
Mr. Ra^linfon said, he did not hold himfelf bound to abide
by a resolution of the late Parliament, of which he had not
been a Member, and he saw other objections to the Petition's
being referred to a Committee. The persons who signed it
were only thirty-two in number, and they were but a trifling
portion of the public; besides, though they had not signed their
names in the character of Delegates, yet he understood that
they added in that capacity, and he was firmly of opinion, that
all delegation out of that House was illegal and unconstitu
tional; the only view of such fort of delegation could be, to
form a body to awe and controul the Legislature, which was
a ftifficient reason for him to be of opinion, that the Petition of
ought not to be considered any farther.
Sir Horace Mami stated tht part be had taken in Kent last
year on the fubjeft of Petitions, declaring that two were sent
out of that county to Parliament. Sir Horace said he had, in
the last Parliament, delivered his fentimerits upon the fubjed;
such as they then Were, they remained at present : he admit
ted. that the right of Petitioning that House was an inherent,
undeniable right of the people ; but he never could agree that
Associations, Committees of Correspondence, and appointment
of Delegates for the purpose of managing Late affairs, and
such as were the fit subjects of difeuffion and proceedings in
that House only, were constitutional ; on the contrary, he
considered them in a very different light, as tending to create
anarchy and confuHon, to subvert the Government, and to
by the wifdem of Parliament, against the extensive and uncon
stitutional influence of the Crown, and some Top might be
put to the lavish expenditure of public money ; and the Peti
tioners begged leave to flat:, that the matter contained in the
Petition so presented by them and others, was taken into con
sideration $y that Hon. Hoqfc ; and on due and mature deli
beration, the House refoived,
1. “ Th@t it is necessary to declare, that the influence of
the Crown has increased, is iricieafmg, and ought to be dimi
nished. .
2. " That it is competent to this House, to examine ipto,
and to correct abuses in, the expenditure of the Civil Lot
Revenues; as well as in every other branch of the public re
venue, whenever it shall appear expedient to the wisdom of
thia House., To to do- ..
3, " That it is the duty of this House, to provide, as far
as may be, an immediate and effectual redress of the abuses
complained of in the Petitions presented to this House from
the different counties, cities and towns, in this kingdom."
And the Petitioners begged leave further to Rate, that be
fore that Hon. House had effected that diminution of the
influence of the Crown, and had provided an effectual redress
of the grievances complained of in the said Petitions, the said
Parliament of Great-Britain was, by his Majesty's Royal Pro
clamation, dissolved.
be attended with the most pernicious cnf-nep.-^ I
regaid to the prefect Petition, it came bcfinc'ihc Qi"-'' 1 1
very qutftio:iablc ihape. It was fgneriby tliirty-twffik? f
duals ; gentlemen, who though rcipcHable in thenuclvo''"
private men, it was generally known were termed w^L, ,'
the Delegates of the People. In fubferibing ,thc prefcp,% ? '
tion, it was true they had not affirmed thatchama c r butti'
House were entitled so to legard them, and therefore he ;° [
one llrould oppose the motion. He thought the desired re c
should originate with that Houle. . ~ I
General 'Burgoyne said, that if any censure war due to thf
who aded without doors, in the character of Delegates
rose to avow his guilt, and to put in Ids cl.dm for hisihaA 'f
that censure, having the honour to be one of that defcrind"'
of persons. The General entered into a difeutiion of the™
tore of the Britifa constitution, and of the legality of the 'p^
pie's interfering,! State matters under certain - circumliaify'
lie said, in ail free Governments the conftitutioa was oriri'
nally framed by the people, and whenever, through the t
ftru&ive influence of grots venality and corruption, Goveni
meht was no longer fubilantial and effective, but became"
mere shadow, and was incapable of protesting the rights
liberties of the fubjeft, in such case, he held it warrantabl
for the people to interfere, to refuine the management of Life
own affairs, and to form a new confutation. And this a%.|
ment he founded on the idea, that all free Governments
intended solely for .the good of the governed, and ' with
othcr object ;. the moment, therefore that objed was at,"
doued, the confutation having been the creature of the
ple, the latter as the creators had a right to refame it and
renovate it on better principles. The General juftified cviry
part of the Petition, and raid, though he would not goirQ
repetition of the reasons which had induced him to quitch
public service and give up all the emoluments of a laborious
profeffi,!, which he had followed with great fatigue for 1, °
ny years, he would fay he gloried in being a Delegate, a\|
mould be. proud at any time, where it was thought he could
be of the Halt service, to undertake any task-the public could
impose oh him ; when he quitted the army,.he would be bold
to fay, that though they might not lose a very able, they loft
an honest soldier, :
Sir Horace Maim said a few words in explanation of his for
mer fpegch..
Mr. H%.uocd ( ATember for Kent)mentioned the tranfafti
ons in the county he represented, on the score of Petition
and said, he had himfelf proposed one of the two presented
'° ."'^ House the last year; lie was sure therefore, that the
majority of his constituents approved both of the present pt£
tion and of Committees of Affociatinn, for which rcaLu^-
Ihould concur in the present motion.
Lord Fielding spoke against the motion, and greatly in favour
of Administration, commending the noble Lord in the bhe
ribband in terms of the unazh panegyric, lie term'd
the resolutions of the lad year, resolutions to which he did
not feel himfelf pledged in the lead. He said the present A.
tition was a renewal of that iyftem of innovation, which had
been fct on foot by faflious men last year, and that Provided
had permitted the difordera of the times (which bnrft out hi
consequence of the Protestant Affiliation, and the proceed
mgs of their President) to happen, by which means Admini
stration were rescued from defirudion, and men were brought
to their senses, on the mad measures that were then pursuing.
Speaking of the influence of the Crown, as Rated to prevail
in that House, he denied the fad, and said, the balance of
power there was not in the Minister's hands, it was in thofc
of the country gentlemen, who, feeing that the Minister's
measures were wifely and judiciously planned, and approving
of the integrity and propriety of his conduct, attached rh^
Selves to him and regularly supported him. As a proof that
the influence of the Crown did not prevail, he Lid, such was
the uncertainty of the issue of any great question in that House,
that it was impossible to tell before hand how the division
would go;fomuch so, that he did not doubt, if he was to
aft the political muster-masters, either his Hon. Friend near
him [Mr. # Robertfon] or his Hon. friend over the way [Mr.
Byng] neither of them could at any time give him any certain
information.
Mr. Byng rose immediately, and declared, that if he was
to answer the noble Lord plainly and bluntly, as he was always
accustomed to speak, lie should make no scruple to fay, that
the very contrary, of what the noble Lord supposed, was the
fadf, for there Scarcely ever was a great question agitated, of
the iflue of which he could' not speak with tolerable certainty
early in the debate. Witli regard to the prelent motion,
though he knew it to be a proper one, and such as it was
the duty of the House to accede to, that would, he forefaw
plainly, be loft. Mr. Byng referred to his old theme, the late
loan, and repeated several of the most poignant of his remarks
on that fubjed.
Mr. Courtney said, he happened to have been born in a coun
try, the natives of which were not apt to be over bafhful; he
made no scruple to own, therefore, that so far from blushing at
the fight of his # name, in the lift of fubferibers to the loan, be
was rather inclined to blush at so final! a sum appearing against
it. Mr. Courtney from this proceeded to comment on two
arguments, wiiich had been just advanced, the one by Mr.
Byng, the other by Gen. Burgoyne, and then went into a
general speech on the fubjed of the Petition, in the course
of whicli he mixed a portion of irony and ridicule with a good
deal of serious and forcible argument. He said, the Delegates
were composed of chiefs out of war, and Members of 'Par
liament out of place; and after complimenting the bulk of
the people, whom he described as consisting of the middling
rank, and the Yeomanry, he took notice of other defcripti
qns of men, daring from ambition, and desperate from necef
iity, who scrupled at no means cf creating confufion and
anarchy, from which alone they could hope to derive advan
tage; luce menas these he said it was, that mourned at their
country s victories, and rejoiced at her misfortnes.
[To BE CONTINUED.]
TOHN JOHNSON, at No. 86, Broad-Street, has an As-
J fortment of IRISH LINENS, which he will fell on very
seasonable Terms.
TO BE SOLD,
By William-Kerr Ross,
At No. 2, Tradd-ftreet,
For CaJh, Government Bills, or Produce,
JAMAICA Rum by the Puncheon, Mufeovado Sugar by the
Hogshead or Barrel, Port Wine in Pipes, Quartercalks arid
Bottles ; Soap and Candles, Iriih Butter, and an Assortment
of Dry Goods suitable to the Seafon.±
TWO BRICK TENEMENTS for sale, in Chambers,-
Alley, in good order, and may be entered upon by the
purchaser on short notice. Enquire of the Printers.
NOTICE is hereby given to those persons who have any de
mands on the Altaic of the late Daniel Blake, Esq; or 011
William Blake, Esq; that they are rcqucfiAl to make known one
fame to the fubferiber, that they may be refpe&ively ieu<cd_and paid
off; and all those that arc iririebted to the hid Dana shake's eh^te,
or to William Elake, and also to d:e eftatc of Benrumr cteud, tJq;
late merchant in London, are defred to call and krie the
soon aspokUe, with yd, If. THUM ho I ,