The royal gazette — [Charleston] S.C., 1781-10-10 00:00:00, page 4

House of Commons, May 30.
[Commission of Accounts Bill.]
THE Hen. William Pitt roll, immediately as the noble Lord fat
down, and said, it was to universally admitted on general prin
ciples of theory, that the House could not constitutionally delegate any
of its powers and privileges, that he wondered that any gentleman
should hesitate upon a question of so great, so important a nature, for
a single moment; for what was .the matter id dispute at present?
No left, than whether that House should forego and delegate into ei
ther hands, that mod glorious of all the various privileges with which
it was inverted by the constitution, the privilege of redrafting the
grievances, and alleviating the burthens of the people! Ihe people
had called upon them to examine into the expences of the war, to fee
if they could find a system of reformation and cecoiomy, and if they
could, to take carS that it was immediately adopted and closely ad
hered to for the future; this was a duty, which even uncalled on, they
were bound to perform; but it wasa duty, which they not only had
uniformly negiedfed to dilcharge, but were now going to appoint o
thersto do Tor them. The Noble Lord had told them, that in agree
ing to the present Bill and continuing the commiflion of accounts,
they at leaf! shewed themselves not inattentive to the wishes of their
constituents, because a commiflion of accounts was clearly calculated
to throw light upon the matters desired to be enquired into; and in
answer to the objection, grounded on the circumflance that the Com
miflioners anting under the present commiflion, were not Members
of Parliament, and consequently that such a comniiffion did not im
port in any degree a compliance with the wishes of the people, the
plain language of which was, that the House would themselves en
quire into and fedrefs their grievances, the noble Lord had said, that
the present Commissioners of Account were merely to enquire, ex
amine and report, and that it was reserved for Parliament to judge,
to determine, and to a&; it was worth while to flop a little, in order
to enquire,' whether these arguments had weight or not: And firft,
what was the power of judging and aiding reserved to Parliament?
'Experience proved, that it was merely this, —the power of rejecting
every system of (economy, and every plan of reform that Members
possessed of the ablest heads, and the most honest hearts could devise,
fugged, and propose; the power of putting a negative upon every
proposition offered witli a view to redress the grievances, and alleviate
the burthens of the people! What then was become of the powers
of that House, the boailed privileges of the British Commons? All
funk into the disgraceful power of parting a negative vote on every
suggestion, grounded on the idea of national ease, advantage, and
honour, One power, indeed, an 'odious power, remained in their
hands, the power of taxing the people, just as the noble Lord thought
proper. The power of making them pay for the noble Lord s wild
schemes and lava'll corruption ! The power of oppreflhig and burthen
ing the people, therefore, was the only Parliamentary power that
remained affive, while the power of doing good and relieving the dil
trefs of the fubje& was merely negative! He had, he said, often heard
that the Crown of Great Britain had a conditutional power of put
ting a negative on the a&s of the Commons, but he had never before
heard that the Commons had a power to put a, negative on the wishes
of the people, when those wishes tended towards the eftablifliment of
a plan of reformation. He was almost going to fay, he could hardly
have imagined, that the noble Lord would have ventured to assert as
much;'perfectly litre he was, that no man else would have dared to
have suggested even an opinion, that approached towards luch a po
sition.
The noble Lord had talked a great deal of the experience of the
pref.nt Commissioners, and had said every thing in their pra fe, that
the most elaborate pauegyrift could have uttered; he had collected
their eulogy from all sides the House, and had poured forth a profit
fion of compliments on their wonderful efforts, and the great and
fuccefful cifea of their enquiry. Without designing to detract in
the least from their real merit, it was perfectly fair, he conceived,
to examine a little, what were the mighty benefits deduced to the
Public, from the acknowledged industry of these Commissioners?
Theoretical principles, he was ready to admit, muff sometimes be
fuffcred to give way tor the fake of practical advantages; but tb.cn
the fird ought never to be departed from, but in cases, where there
was almost a moral certainty that the second were within reach, and
would be attained. In the present case the Commissioners had exa
mined into, and stated in their reports the amount of ieveral balances
in the hands of fcveral public accountants; in doing this, the noble
Lord would not, he traded, venture to fay that they had done any
more than a comniiffion filled by members of that House was compe
tent to atchieve. In one of their reports, however, they had come
a little nearer to a compliance with the prayers of the people, and
had gone so far as to point out, with great humility and great defer
ence, an alteration that seemed to them likely to be attended with
advantage to the people, by a more economical regulation of office.
What did the noble Lord in that case ? He put a negative upon it—
and that not by any Parliamentary proceeding; he did not even allow
them the exercise of that power of judging and of anting, of which he
had said so much, but he took upon himfelf to negative the propor
tion of those Commissioners of Accounts, in whose praise he had been
so lavish; and he tells Parliament, that although the Commissioners
had pointed out the inconvenience, and even luggeded a remedy,
that he did not mean to attend to the one, or adopt the other, because
he had been told by a great Board, that the alteration proposed was
impracticable. So that the noble Lord had disregarded the Report
of the Commissioners, a report delivered in upon oath, and having
all the fa&s stated in it afeertained upon the oaths of a variety of
witnesses, and had preferred the loose converlation of a public board,
fuffering them to become the unfworn wituertes in their own cause.
Mr. Pitt said further, that he had not the smalled objection to the
Board of Treasury's conferring with the Navy Board, or any other ;
but it was a little extraordinary, that the noble Lord should have
assigned it, as a reason for not adopting the regulation proposed, and
for not even giving Parliament an opportunity of putting its own ne
gative upon it, that he had been told it was impracticable, by the
very Board likely to be affe&ed by the alteration.
Sucli was the didreffed fituatiqn of this country at present, that he
was aware mere forms, and even those, which were the most dear,
mod essential and most valuable forms of Parliament, mud be fore
gone, for the fake of immediate and essential public ease; latislaNion
and benefit; he therefore, much as he didiked the idea of continuing
the present Commissioners, in preference to Members of that House,
so far differed from his honourable friends, that he was ready to vote
for the^prefent Bill, even under the noble Lord's limitation of it, pro
vided that immediate ease, fatisfadion and benefit would result from
it to the Public; but was this likely to be the case? Let the noble
Lord, and let the House remember, that it was on the noble Lord's
foltmuly pledging himfelf that the extraordinaries of the army should
be submitted to the enquiry of the Commissioners of Account, imme
diately, that the debate on that immense claim for the present year had
been given up. If therefore the noble L^ord now went back from his
promife,i£he fhifted the matter, and did not fulfil what hehad pledged
himfelf to perform, all the world must fee that the noble Lord had
cheated and ensnared the House with falfc hopes, and hypocritically
deluded them out of that full ahd fcrutinous difeuffion and enquiry
into the extraordin^ties of the army, which a fubjedl: of such great
importance undoubtedly called for, and would have met with, but
for the noble Lord's having pretended, that he himfelf was astonished
at their enormous amount, and having pledged himfelf, that the Com
raiflidners should be infirudted to enquire into the cause of it immedi
ately. What was it, that had carried the noble Lord through the pre
sent feflion, but the promise of the reformation which the Commission
ers of Accounts were toeffe& ; and what hopes were there of their doing
any good under the present cifcumftanccsof the Commiflion? Thchoble
Lord had faid,the reason, why he was not willingto actede to the propo
sition, to insert the word " immediately," moved in the preceding
debate by his honourable friend, was this: because they had not yet
gone through that ground of enquiry they had begun upon, a ground
of enquiry extremely narrow of itfelf, and which he could not but
observe, had been ftudipufly laid down by the original Bill, as the
obje& the Commissioners were firft to dire& their attention to. And
here he must remark, and he verily believed it, on his credit, his
honour, and his confeience, that the noble Lord meant and designed,
that the Commifiioners should spend their time in enquiring into
trifles, without going into an examination of any great, extensive
and important object, the better to continue the deception, and to
Parliamentary Proceedings.
carry on the hypocrisy and deceit, that had already led that House
into so many votes difgraCeful to themselves, and ruinous to the public.
The noble Lord, affecting more than uncommon modesty, Mr.
Pitt observed, had assumed the third person, and said, " the noble
Lord, he was sure, if the Commissioners were to be chosen from
among the Members of that House, would not with to have the no
mination of them." This was a lingular remark from a Minister,
who, it was notorious; had named every one of the present Commis
sioners; but, perhaps, it had fame truth in it. Indeed he would do
the noble I.ord so much justice as to declare, that if his honourable
friend's motion was carried, and it was agreed that the Commission
ers to a& under the new Bill, were to be chosen from among the
Members of that House by ballot, he did not believe the noble Lord
would interfere, and make up a lift of names of those who, on all
occaiions, a&ed as the noble Lord's tools. Such a measure would be
too palpable, and too gross a mockery of all justice, and all fairnefs,
for the noble Lord to venture the rifque of; it would be at the fame
time too fhameful an avowal of influence for the noble Lord's tools to
submit to, pliant and accommodable as they were, and too incapable
of juftification, e^en for those tools to attempt to defend. The noble
Lord, therefore, might fafely adopt the proportion, and might red
assured, he would not be accused of having used the influence of his
iituation to procure a partial ballot.
The noble Lord had urged as a reason that the present Commissi
oners ought to be continued, that they were men of experience, and
had stated that the great difficulties they had met with and fummount
ed, would be to be encountered afrefh, if Members of Parliament
were substituted in their room. In order to prove the validity of
this argument, it must be examined; and fifft, Who was Sir Guy
Carleton? a military officer! a man, whose character, Mr. Pitt said,
he held in the highest refpe&, but whose habits, he should not have
thought peculiarly qualified him for a Commissioner of Accounts.
Who was Mr. Pigott? A young man in a profeffion that required
some fort of application, and to which, he certainly could entertain
no difrefpedt; he meant a lawyer. Were these men fit to preside
over a Commiflion of Accounts? What was there of analogy between
a clerical employ and a military profeffion? What connexion, be
tween the duties of Weftnrinder-hall, and the duties of a Commis
sioner, under the present Bill? There were besides Makers in Chan
cery, and in short, men of almost every description, but of that pe
culiar defcripton which belonged to the Members of that House,
viz. men accustomed to tranfa&ing national business. But it had
been said, that Sir Guy Carleton and Mr. Pigott had expressed an
inclination to retire from the Commiflion, the one aligning as a rea
son, his ill health, the other, the necessity of his attending to his pro
feffional avocations. The noble Lord had admitted, that it was true
Sir Guy Carleton and Mr. Pigott had desired to retire, and that for
the reasons above stated; but that such were their good wishes, such
their zeal to serve the public, from a confeioufnefs of the good that
had arisen, and of the greater degree of good that might arise, from
their prosecution of their labours as Commissioners, that they had
determined to give up every personal consideration, and continue
to a& under the renewed commiflion. The plain English of this
argument, Mr. Pitt said, was, that Sir Guy Carleton had de
termined to have no more ill-health, and that Mr. Pigott was de
termined to have no more business. For this, ridiculous and absurd
as it was, was the only rational interpretation that could be put on
the noble Lord's words. , Again, the noble Lord had boasted great
ly of the experience of the present Commissioners, and had said, that
no persons could be equally capable of difeharging the duty of Com
miflioners, with those who had been tried, who had been found able,
and who had given proof of their talents, their assiduity and their in
tegrity. Few words would serve to shew the fallacy of this assertion;
,the noble Lord had expressly told the House, that the great difficul
ty chat had flood in the way of the firfl: prosecution of the enquiry,
arose from the novelty of the undertaking. Now the enquiry of the
Commissioners, as far as they had prosecuted it, had gone merely to
the balances in the hands of accountants of various descriptions, than
the mode of coming at which, nothing could be more simple; but
the accounts of the Extraordinaries of the army were obje&s of enqui
ry of a nature totally diftin& and different; so much so, that the
fame difficulties remained as had at firft occurred, and consequently,
the novelty of the undertaking being in that particular' as great as
ever, they had just as little experience to help them forward, as the
Members of that House would have. And as to their superior abili
ties and assiduity :—without his fele&ing any of thofe' gentlemen,
whom he had the happiness to fee round nim, surely it would be no
very difficult matter to find fix gentlemen on either fide of the House,
to the full, as able, as prompt, as industrious, and as honest, as the
present Commissioners of Accounts had shewn themselves.
Mr. Pitt asked whether there would not be more dignity, as well
as more power, in a Commilfion of Accounts filled by Members of
Parliament, than in a Commiflion tilled by men of heterogeneous
profeffions, almost inaccessible, from their place of meeting, as they
fat scarcely any person knew when, or where?
After a variety of particular arguments, all strongly applicable to
what Lord North had suggested, Mr. Pitt resumed his general argu
ment as well on the propriety and the necessity of reformation the
duty of the House, to listen to the voice of the people, and do some
thing more than follow the . noble Lord in every proposition he offer
ed, let it be good or bad, solid or fuperficial, politic or impolitic.
He earnestly conjured them to use their own eyes, and to consult
their own understandings; to return to a sense of their duty to the
people, to a& like honed independent Members of Parliament, and
no longer implicitly to pin. their faith on the sleeve of a Minister.
No member of either fide the House ventured to speak after Mr.
Pitt, though Mr. Fox had appeared ready to rife, for che purpose of
speaking, at the time that Mr. Pitt rose,
The House divided immediately^ when the numbers were,
Ayes 24, / Noes 98.
Mr. Hufley then rose, and called the attention of the House to the
Bill on a great point, Az. whether by the wording of it, the Com
missioners were empowered to enquire what money there was in the
Exchequer itfelf, as well as in the, hands of Public Accountants?
Lord- North convinced the honourable gentleman, that it was
exprefly enabled in 'the Bill, that the Commissioners of Accounts should
examine into the flute of money in the Exchequer, as well as in the
hands of the Public Accountants.
BLUE and white Plains
Fine milled ditto, far superi
or in Quality to any imported
Bed Blankets
Broap Hoes, Nails, and most ufe
ful Articles of Ironmongery
Rice and Flour Sieves
Crates of Staffordfhire Ware, and
Hogsheads of earthen ditto,
well assorted
THE CO-PARTNERSHIP of Graham & Burt, being
this day dissolved by mutual consent, they request those in
debted to them to difeharge their accounts; and those who have any
demands against them, to make known the fame, in order that they
may be fettled as soon ds poflible. They beg leave to return their
sincere thanks to those Gentlemen who were pleased to give them
the disposal of their crops, and would be glad of a continuance of
their favours to William Burt, No. 13, Bay, or at the Scalc-
House On Burn's wharf.
Cbarlefoivn, O&ober I, 1781. f
GREENWOOD & LEGGE,
At their Store, No. 44, on the Bay,
Have the following well chosen Goods,
yuft imported in the Ship London, Capt. John Rainier, from
London, tvbibb tbe, vvill diftofe of by the Package reasonably, for
Cajb or Government Bills, viz.
TO BE LET,
A Front and Back Parlour,
With the use of a kitchen, in a house in Meeting-street, well situated
for trade. Enquire of the Printers.f
The House then resolved itfelf into a Committee upon the bill.
[To BE CONTINUED.]
Hogsheads of assorted Tin Ware
Ofnaburgs and Sheetings of an ex
traordinary good Quality
Cases of Glass Ware, confining of
Tumblers, Wine Glasses, &c.
Boxes of Crown Window Glass
10 by 8, II by 9, and 12 by 10
Boxes of Long Pipes glazed
Two Packages of Brushes assorted
&c. &c. &c.
The following seasonable Articles, viz
BLUE, green, and white Negro Cloth
Duffil and Bed Blankets
Superiine Broad Cloths
Yoikfhire ditto
Bath Coating Suftouts
Linen and Woollen Slops
Caffimires and Flannels
7-8 and Yard-wide Irish Linens, which are pufehafed on th!
bed Terms
Checks, Stripes and blue Linen
Fine and coarse Cambricks and Lawns
Russia and German Linens
Scotch and German Ofnaburgs
Ditto ard Holland Bed Ticks
Mens white and brown Thread Hose
Ditto Leather Shoes and Morocco Slippers
Ditto Leather Bo'ots
Linen, Check, Romall and other Handkerchiefs
Printed Linen, Callico and Cottons
Loaf Sugar
Bohea, Green and Hyfon Teas, by the Chest
Pickles and Oil in Cases
AL S O,
Jamaica and Weft-India Rum
Madeira and Port Wine in Pipes, Hogsheads and Quartered
Claret and Calcavella Wine.
JAMES & EDWARD PENMANS
At their Store, No. 15, Bay,
Have jufl received on Confgnment by the British Hero, Caw
Hill, from London, and bate on Hand,
FOR SALE BY THE PACKAGE,
For Cafo, Produce, or Government Bills,
On the most reasonable Terms,
An Assortment of GOODS,
CONSISTING OF
PRINTED Linens and Cottons
Handkerchiefs and Silk Gauzes of all Kinds
Saddlery, Military and fine Shoes
Shirts and Overalls
Port Wine in Calks and Bottles
Cordage of all Kinds
Paints, Oil, and Painter's Tools
Hats, coarse Linens, Checks and Gauzes
Cordage and Sai' Cloth of all Kinds
Refined Sugar, and a Variety of other Articles.
ALSO FOR SALE,
Old JAMAICA RUM in Puncheons and Porter Barrels.f
Excellent wired PORTER,
Imported in the British Hero, from London,
And to be fold at No. 46, on the Bay.
Imported in the British Hero, Capt. Hull, from London,
By WALKER & MAITLAND,
And to be fold at tbeir Store, No. 92, Broadfreet,
A VARIETY of GOODS,
Fit for the present and approaching Season, viz.
WHITE, blue and green Plains
London DuffiJ and Rose Blankets
Striped and white Flannels
Worsted and Yarn Hose
Scarlet Cloaks and Cardinals
Ofnaburgs and Ofnaburg Thread
Brown Hollands
Dyed and bleach'd Russia Drabs
Mens, Youths and Boys Hats of all Kinds
Oil and Pickles of all Sorts
Spices and Loaf Sugar
Nails, Hoes, Axes, Locles, Hinges, &c.
Lintfeed Oil and Paints,
Which, with a general Assortment, imported in the Reforation, Cap
Crombie, from London, they will fell on very reasonable Terms,
N. B. All Persons indebted to the Copartnerfhip of Greenwo
and Walker, are hereby requeued to call on the Subferiber, an!
fettle their Accounts, as the Death of Mr. Greenwood renders it ak
folutely necessary that a dole should now be put to those Concern
* JOHN WA
FOR SALE,
AVery fine full-blooded MARE, upwards of t§ hands
high; she was got by Flimnap, out of an imported' mare;
also, a likely well gaited GELDING, fifteen hands and a half high
Enquire at No i6B, King-ftreet.|
TO BE LE T,
And may be Entered upon the 25th of this Month,
A final! HPUSE in King-street.
Enquire at No. 41, Church-ftreet.|
John & William Thompson,
Have removed from No. 97, Broad-street, to the house formerly
occupied by Hawkins, Petrie, & Co. on the South Side c
Tradd-ftreet, near the Bay,
WHERE THEY HAVE FOR SALE,
On very reasonable Terms, by the Package or other<wife,
An ASSORTMENT of
European & East-India GOODS
WHITE and coloured Welch
Plains
Duffil and Rose Blankets
Scarlet, white and flriped Flan
nels
Officers Great Coats
Duffil and Coating do.
Broad Cloth and Kerfeymires
Ofnaburgs
Irifh.Linen and Sheeting
Cambrick
Pistol and Long Lawn
Table Cloths
Diaper
Bed Tick and Bunts
Printed Cotton and Linen
Chintz and Callicoes
Mufiins
Womens and Girls Stays
Bombazeen and Crape
Feathers and Plumes
Womens silk and Durant Coats
Womens silk, Morocco and Cal
limanco Shoes
RUN away, a Mulatto Wencb, named Sukey, well
in town, she had a ticket of leave to find a maOer; wit'.«
she may perhaps impofc. TWO GUINEAS will be P",
fubferiber to any person that will deliver her to him, or t° '
of the Sugar-houfc; THOMAS P-
COOKE & WEBB,
Have to dispose of, at public and private Sale
At tbeir Store in Broad-street,
Imported in the British Hero, from London.
Among which are,
SOAP and PORT WINE.
Manchelter Goods
White and black Cap Wire
Mens fine Hats
Officers and Soldiers Shirts
Check ditto
Soldiers Shoes
Mens Saddles, &c.
Troopers Boots
Fine Cordovan ditto
Leather and Hair, Portmanteau1
Trunks
Tea and Table China
Bohea, Green, Souchong
Hyfon Teas
Black Pepper , „
Single and double refined
Sugar, Cotton Cards
Broad Hees
Narrow and Broad Axes
Cross cut and Handsaws
Steelyards
Copper Scales and Weights
Iron Chests
Also,