The royal gazette — [Charleston] S.C., 1781-09-01 00:00:00, page 4

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Parliamentary Proceedings.'
House ^Commons, Tburfdaj, May io.
THE order of the day being read, that the House resolve itfelf
into a Committee,-for the purpose of taking the reports made
by the Commiflioners, appointed to Bate and examine the Public
Accounts of the kingdom, into consideration, the four reports made
by those Commiflioners, were, upon motion, referred to the said
Committee, and Mr. Ord took his feat at the table.
Lord North then said, the gentlemen appointed Commiflioners of
Public Accounts, by virtue of an aft of Parliament passed last session,
had made four reports, which had been printed, and the last of them
had lain upon the table so long, that every Member of the Commit
tee, he doubted not, was perfectly well acquainted with its contents;
and therefore the Committee in general, he trusted, would think it
was not too early for him to move fonietliing upon the ground of
these reports. His Lordship, after this exordium, went into a mi
nute detail of the four reports, and upon the observations offered to
the House, through that medium, by the Commiflioners. He said
the a& fpecifieally pointed out to them the enquiring after the names
of all persons in the receipt of public money, or to whom public mo
ney, unaccounted for, had been issued, as their firft object. In pur
suance of this part of the aeft, the Commiflioners, in their firft re
port Rated, that after issuing the necessary precepts, to most of which
returns were made, they receded accounts of the balances in the
hands of the Receivers-General of the Land-tax, and of the represen
tatives of those who were dead, of the different Treasurers and repre
sentatives of Treasurers of the Navy, whose accounts were unsettled,
of the different Paymasters and representatives of Paymasters of his
Majesty's forces, whose accounts were unsettled, and of various other
clades of Public Accountants. They also state, that they began their
enquiry with examining as many of the Receivers-General of the
I rand-tax, as they thought necessary, not only as to the public money
in their hands, but also as to the mode of collecting, receiving, pay
ing in, and accounting for tl\e taxes received by them. And that
they examined likewise several of the Officers of Excise, in order to
compare the expence, efficacy, and dispatch, with which the Excise
was collected, with the expence, efficacy, and dispatch, of the col
ledtioli of the Land-tax.
The Land-tax, his lordship remarked, was collected by persons
not under the immediate controul of the Exchequer, but there was
an officer fubjeft to the examination and orders of the Exchequer, and
that was, the Receiver-General of each county. Now it appeared
from the report of the Commiflioners, that there were certain sums
of money in the hands of several of the Receivers-General, which
ought to have been paid into the Exchequer. This was undoubtedly
a fadf, but it was thus to be accounted for; a custom, as old as the
Land-tax itfelf, had uniformly prevailed to fuffer a considerable por
tion of the receipt to remain in the hands of the Receivers-General,
and for this reason : The poundage allowed was not deemed by any
means a fufficient remuneration for their trouble. That this custom
was sometimes carried much too far, very probably might be the case,
but the general excuse made by the Receivers General, when they
were written to, on the score of complaint of their delay in remit
ting the collection, was, that they found an extreme difficulty in
procuring bills. This excuse might have some foundation in it. In
deed he himfelf had frequently had the fame made to him by his ste
ward in Somerfetfhire, who had defended his not remitting him the
profits of his estate sooner, by imputing it to this difficulty of procu
ring good bills; but there might also be, and indeed he believed
there was, a considerable portion of pretence in the argument, and
the Receivers-General frequently used it, when it was not ftridtly
true. At the fame time that he said this, it was necessary to state,
that the Receivers-General of the county in which they were then
fitting, and o' the city of London, always paid in the full amount of
their receipt as soon as the money came into their hands, and the
reason was, the sum was so large, that the poundage upon it was an
ample remuneration, and of course they could have no excuse to make
On the fubje& of procuring bills. The Receiver-General also of the
county of Kent did the fame, and probably for the fame reason, his
receipt amounting to ho,cool. But there were counties in which the
receipt was infinitely fmailet; the two counties of Weftmoreland and
Cumberland together paid only about 6000 or 70001. Other coun
ties paid 12,0001. others 1 3,c001, others iß,oool. and others 19,0001.
In looking to the Excise ^olle&ion, the Commiflioners found, that
there the money was paid in weekly to the Exchequer, and the
fame excafes were not made from the country, on the score of
difficulty of procuring bills; but then, gentlemen would please to
recoiled?: that the Excise was the best managed branch of the public
revenue, and that their officers were under the immediate controul
of the Board, which made the case widely different from that of the
Land-tax.' It was to be remembered also, that the Collegers made
their circuits regularly every fix weeks, that the sums were extremely
different from those paid for the Land-tax, and therefore people
were prepared with final! bills against the time the Excise Collec
tors came round. That there exited no reason, as the Commission
ers had stated, in their second report, that private individuals should
detain the public money in their hands, was undoubtedly a truth not
to be disputed. The Treasury therefore, upon the Commiflioners
reports, had instituted an enquiry into the various matters therein
referred to, and finding, what the Commissioners had alledged, re
lative to the Receivers-General detaining considerable sums of the
Land-tax collection in their hands, to be founded, had endeavoured
to fee what fort of remedy could be applied. By the add of Parlia
ment now in force, those officers were obliged to remit the money
within twenty days after it came into their hands, but that part of
the ack was not complied with, and indeed it was impofiible that it
should, many of the bills sent up by the Receivers-General being
drawn at thirty and forty days, and every body knew that good bills
were not to be procured in the country, but by' allowing the advan
tage of time to those who drew them. It certainly was in the power
of the Treasury to apply a remedy of some fort to this evil; upon
consideration, however, he thought it would be wiser to take the
function of the Legislature with him, and to do it by an act of Par
liament. He proposed, therefore, to move for leave to bring in a
bill by which he meant to enforce the early remission of the receipt
of the Land-tax to the Exchequer, from the Receivers-General of
counties, after it had been in their hands a reasonable portion of time
(to be limited by the bill) by fubjeHing the Receivers-General to the
lots of their poundage upon all such sums as they should detain any
longer than the time so limited; and as a farther enforcement, he
proposed to make the Receivers-General liable to pay an interest of
5 per cent, upon all the sums so detained; which regulations he con
ceived would both together operate with fufficient effect to produce
what the Public had undoubtedly a right to expect, viz. a speedy
remission of their money to the Exchequer. In the course of difeuffing
the fubje& of the collection of the land-tax, his Lordship said, that
notwithstanding the sums that had been hitherto detained in the hands
of the Receivers-General, notwithstanding the loffesfuflained in conse
quence of the bankruptcy and insolvency of several of the Receivers-
General, and of the Executors and Representatives of others, and in
cluding the whole expence of Collectors, Receivers-General, the fees of
office, Ac. the whole expence of colle&ingthe land-tax revenueamoun
ted to no more than lo^d. in the pound, which was less than the
expence of the collection of the Excise, which amounted to ig^d
in the pound, and was universally held to be the cheapest and belt
managed revenue of any in Europe. His Lordship Rated the annual
loss by the insolvency, bankruptcy, &c. of the Receivers-General of
the Land-tax, to amount to two thousand pounds communibis annis.
Having dwelt upon the firft report for a considerable time, and
made an infinite number of observations upon the fubje&, his Lord-
Rfp proceeded to speak on the second report, in which the Com
miflioners Rated the reffllt of their enquiry into the collodion, re
ceipt, and payment into the Exchequer of the revenue arising from
the Customs, Excise, Stamp office, Salt-office, Hawkers, and Pedlars
office; Hackney Coach office, Poft-office, First Fruits-office, Tenths
Sixpenny duty, and (hilling duty. -With regard to the customs, the
Commiflioners report, that the Receiver-General had in his hands the
sum of 3,2881. 14s. lid. farthing, which they advise to be paid in as
soon as possible. Upon this report,his Lordship said the Board of Trea
sury had immediately written to the Commiflioners and Comptroler-
General of the Customs, to pay in the fame which had been since
done. Upon the collection and payment of the revenue arising from
the Excise, Stamp, and Salt-offices, and also of that arising from the
Hawkers, and Pedlars, and Hackney Coach-offices, the Commif
lioners had said there was no room for suggestion of alteration. Upon
the Poll-office revenue, the Commiflioners of Accounts Rate, that in
tel
conformity to the act of the 9th 2nd 10th of Queen Anne, the Re
ceiver-General pays into the Exchequer 7001. a week, and the Com
missioners add, that it is their opinion the method of paying the
nett balance of the receipt into the Exchequer weekly, established by
the Customs, the Excise, and other offices should be adopted by the
Poll-office. Upon enquiry made by the Treasury since the Com
missioners delivered their second report, it appeared, that in fadt, the
Receiver-General of the Poll-office does pay the whole of his receipt
into the Exchequer as soon as he receives it; that is, he never keeps
any part of the receipt at home, but fends it all, as fall as he has it,
to the Bank, and that, gentlemen would recolledt, was the Exche
quer in this consideration ; therefore it was unnecessary to make any
proportion oh this part of the Commiflioners report. It was proper
however, that he should fay forfiething upon the observation which
the Commiffiohers had subjoined to this report, and that was their
opinion relative to the consolidation of Offices. Witli regard to the
Excise and Customs, undoubtedly those offices had already so much
bufmefs, and were so loaded, that they had full employ, and there
fore considering, that probably the exigencies of the times might
make it necessary to add fonietliing to both in addition to their pre
sent business, the Committee, he conceived, would not tliink it
right to encreafe their burthen, by fending them the business of 0-
ther offices to tranfad:. The four offices pointed out by the Commis
sioners of accounts, as capable of some consolidation, were the Stamp
office, the Salt-office, the Hawkers and Pedlars, and the Hackney
Coach office. With regard to the two firfl, they were not exponfive
offices, the Commiflioners salaries being but moderate, and the busi
ness under their care considerable. The Commiflioners of the Stamp
office met three times a week, and those of the Salt-office twice ; but
then when gentlemen considered, that the revenue collected and mana
ged at each of these offices, was extremely well taken care of, they
certainly would not think of putting it under the management of any
other offices; particularly the Salt-duties, which on account of the va
rious drawbacks, bounties, &c. were extremely intricate, and oc
casioned much trouble. How far the Hawkers and Pedlars-office and
Hackney Coach office were capable of consolidation or of abolition,
he was not ripe enough to fay; but he did not propose to do it at pre
sent for several reasons, among which, not the least forcible in his
mind, was the consideration, how very little could be saved by such a
measure. The whole of the expence of the Hawkers and Pedlars
office, was but 1300 L and the Commiflioners had but 1001. a year
each. Besides, if the office was abolished, the 10001. a year must Rill
be paid to the riding surveyors. With regard to the Hackney Coach
office, the expence of that also was inconsiderable. The Commis
sioners had but 2col. a year each; and that office was to be regarded
in a view of Police, as well as revenue. If the office therefore was
abolished, the Police would be destroyed; for though the justices have
a power to punish by fine, &c. they cannot take away a coachman s
figure, or exercise various other branches of the Police, that are now
veiled in the Coach-office. For these reasons therefore, he should
not at present meddle with either of the four offices alluded to.
In the course of considering the Commissioners of Accounts second
report, his Lordship made several apposite remarks as the occasion
called for them; he mentioned that the Cross and By Road Poft
office revenue had been farmed by the late Mr. Allen, (who had ori
ginally invented it,) till he died, since which time it had been in the
management of the Poll-office in Lombard-Rreet. At length his
Lordship proceeded to speak to the third report, and Rated that it
set out with a declaration on the part of the Commiflioners, that ha
ving finifhed their examination of all Public Accountants of the firft
class, they proceeded to the next, viz. those who had received pub
lic money out of the Exchequer, by way of impreft, and on account;
and began with the Treasurers of the Navy, examining the executors
and representatives of those that were dead, and such Treasurers of
the Navy as were now living. It appeared to the Commifficners that
the accounts of Lord Howe were the last accounts of auy Treasurer
of the Navy, that had been made up. Upon this head, the Commis
sioners of Accounts had given it as their opinion, that the Treasurers
of the Navy ought not, when out of office, to detain the public mo
ney in their hands, and advised that in that case all the unappropri
ated money in the hands of a Treasurer, when he goes out of office,
be paid into the hands E his successor, and in like manner by his
executors or representatives in case of death, upon receiving a proper
security and indemnification. The Commissioners had also advised
that an alteration be made in the mode of keeping a Treasurer of the
Navy's accounts, and of doing the business of his office, by altering
the constitution of the office, abolishing the subordinate Treasury,
and rendering the Treasurer a mere accountant. With regard to
that, his Lordship said, the Treasury had taken some pains to enquire
how far it would be expedient to comply with the advice of the Com
missioners, and in order to be certain of their ground, they bad con
sulted the Navy Board, which was composed of very refpe&able
characters, who were extremely competent to speak upon the fubje&,
and they had all of them declared it to be impracticable. At the
fame time that he said this, his Lordship desired the Committee to
recollect, that he gave this as their opinion, and not as his: many
people; he was aware, declared that to be impracticable, which ap
peared to be extremely difficult, but there was undoubtedly an es
sential dißindlion between what was difficult and what was imprac
ticable. However, he was not fufficiently matter of the matter to
proceed upon it at present, or to make any proportions to the Com
mittee on the fubjedl of altering the constitution of the office of the
Treasurer of the Navy, but this much he meant to do—to endeavour
to prevent Treasurers of the Navy, from detaining the public money,
after they went out of office; and in order to effect this, he meant
to move for leave to bring in a second bill, to oblige Treasurers of
the Navy, and other public accountants, to pay the balances in their
hands into the Exchequer, much earlier than was at present the cus
tom. With regard to the Auditors of the Impreft, he said he knew
not, whether it might be right for Parliament to purchase those
places of the present possessors, and those who had reversions of them,
for undoubtedly it would not be fair to abolish the places, without
giving an equivalent to those, who had a right to derive the emolu
ments that the office afforded. Next year poflibly the fubjedt might
be brought under consideration.
The next report the Commiflioners had made was the fourth, in
which they went on to state that they continued their enquiries or
examinations into the balances in the hands of public accountants de
pending on the Auditor of the Impreft, and began with the Pay
masters of the Forces, examining the Duke of Newcastle, John Pow
ell, Esq; (Executor of Lord Holland) Lord North, and the Execu
tors of the late Mr Cook, Mr. Fox, Mr. T. Townfhend, and seve
ral others, who either had balances in their hands, which they recei
ved while in office, or which those they represented had received;
and upon most of these examinations, it had appeared that the per
sons examined declared they had no objection to paying those balan
ces into the Exchequer, on receiving their quietus, or a security equi
valent thereto. This answer had only one exception in all the exa
minations, and that was in the case of Mr Powell, as executor to
the late Lord Holland, with regard to a particular sum detained for
a particular reason, viz. because it was the fubjedl of a litigation now
pending in the Court of Chancery; but all except this sum Mr.
Powell was ready to pay in on the fame condition that the other
Gentlemen were. In this, his Lordship said, there was great rea
son ; for as the public accounts are now regulated and passed, it was
many years after a Paymaster went out of office, or died, before his
accounts passed in the exchequer, during which time the Public loft
not only the use, but also the interest of the large balances remaining
in private hands. To prevent which, his Lordship, said, he proposed
that all future Faymaßers should pay their balances into the Exche
quer, when they went out of office, and that all the balances now in
hand should likewise be paid in, and by way of security he meant to
introduce a clause into the bill he had mentioned, that should point
to this matter. He added, that he, for one, should certainly think a
Parliamentary security an ample indemnification, because it was just
as well for him, in point of fafety, to have credit in the Exchequer
for the amount of his balance, as it would be to have the money in
his own hands.
He mentioned also his intention of lowering the deductions from
the revenue, in its way from the pocket of the private individual to
the public Treasury, and in its expenditure, by introducing a clause
into one of his bills for lessening the fees of office. Salaries, he said,
he would not meddle with, because the 5 per cent, last laid on, added
to the other deductions, lessened them very much; but fees bethought
he might diminish without injustice, and much to the advantage of
the Public.
A third motion he meant to make, his Lordship Rated to be, for
leave to bring in a bill, authorizing the present Commiffiop.
continue in office another year, because though they had used " ''
diligence and great fkil lin their proceedings hitherto, much of'™
public accounts Rill remained to be gone through, and one
jc& of the commission was untouched, viz. an enquiry whether f°
means could not be devised and adopted for passing the public act '°™
with greater accuracy and with greater dispatch—that was
mind, a consideration of the very firft importance, and a matter
cerely to be wished. In the bill, he meant also to introduce adr
specially directing the attention of the Commiflioners to the
ordinary accounts, he meant accounts of Extraordinaries of the Arm:
late years. [A loud laugh from Oppofition] On which his LordV
said, undoubtedly though he did not mean to fay so then th ™
counts he alluded to, miglit be called extraordinary in every sens
the word; they had swelled enormously of late years, whether""
voidably or not, he was net able to fay, but at any rate so la/™
branch of public expenditure required investigation, that the
might be fatisfied that their money was both carefully and neceffarl
expended; if such should appear to be the case, and if the contra'
should turn out to be the fa&, that proper means might be taken?
put a flop to such a crying evil, and to prevent it in future
Lordship added a great number of remarks upon the feveral' ton'"
which he had spoken to, and in particular commended the percepti
of the public revenue in general, remarking that it was a point?
which we at present had the advantage over every other country /
advantage which he hoped we should ever keep. ""
His Lordship read over his three motions, and after fpeakiny fr,
near hour and an half, concluded with moving,
" That leave be given to bring in a bill for the better inforcing tl^
^ payment of the monies raised by the I,and-tax in Great Britain "and
for the more speedy recovery of debts due to the Crown."'
Mr. Burke rose, as soon as Mr. Ord had read the motion, and de.
dared, that what the noble Lord had said, was at once a proof of In
ability and debility, of his diligence and his negligence, of his power
of exertion, and of his indolence! the whole of the copious detail he
had given, was lucid, clear, corrc&, methodical and' accurate -so
perfectly clear was it, that a pin might be seen at the very bottoms'
it; but then what tendency had this admirably arranged difeourfe?
Did not every line of it prove the noble Lord's great and ftifo
abilities, and his power of exertion, at the fame time that it proved
his scandalous negledl of his official duty? As Chancellor of the Ex
chequer, ought not the Noble Lord to have prevented the trouble th;
Commiflioners of Accounts had taken, from devolving upon 'their
shoulders? Was it not his duty to have controuled and checked all the
accounts that had # relation to the public Exchequer? to have taken
care that no abuse in the excution of the subordinate offices obtained a
footing in them, and that no advantage was loft to the Public, which
the Public had a right to obtain ? But the Noble Lord had been u
years Chancellor of the Exchequer, and nowat last, he had been obliged
to call in the assistance of Commiflioners of Accounts to do, which
he ought long since to have done himfelf! With regard to the re,
ports of the Commiflioners, and all the mighty projects of the noble
Lord on the grounds of those reports, it was a ridiculous parade a.
bout little or nothing and put him in mind of an old song.
A trifino song you shall bear
Begun -with a trifle, and ended.
All trifling people draw near,
And I fall be nobly attended.
The noble Lord's fpcech, and the Commissioners reports in his
mind, were the very trifle here alluded to ; for what were they, in
fadl, but an immense, machinery to draw out a cork! In the firft
report, what had the Commissioners told us but what every body
knew before, viz. that balances of public money in the hands of pri
vate individuals ought to be paid in the Exchequer? Who was to
learn this, or rather why had not the noble Lord done his duty, and
taken care to prevent it, which he might have done early by an aft
'{Parliament ? The chief part of what was pointed out by the Com
missioners, the noble Lord had said, he should not do ; and in force
refpe&s, with regard to the consolidation of offices, ha was ready to
admit the noble Lord had assigned a good reason, viz. that the parti
cular object pointed cut, the abolition of the Hackney Coach cr
Hawkers and Pedhrs-oflice, was but an unimportant consideration.
Undoubtedly the saving the sum of gool. a year only, and perhaps
losing at the fame time a very ufeful office, would not fatisfy the
people without doors, that the noble Lord had gone any great length'
to comply with tlieir petitions, and introduce a great and important
reform into the expenditure of public money. Mr. Burke said, the
noble Lord had turned a deaf car to his bill, and now was contented
with taking little inconsiderate portions of it, as fubje&s of parlia
mentary proceeding. He had refufed a full harvest, and was now
fatisfied with walking over the harvest fields, ftudioufiy gleaning An
gle blades of his,corn, which, when he rubbed them in ms hands, by ,
way of forcing out the grain, all blow away together like so much'
chaff. He took occasion, however, after diverting himfelf and the
House with a great deal of wit at the noble Lord's expence, to pay'
" e C° mm "^° ners of Accounts a handsome and serious compliment.
He fain, he was far from meaning to censure those gentlemen; as far
as they had gone, they were entitled to his applause and to his
thanks, and to the approbation of all ranks of people. They had
shewn themselves to be men of sense, of integrity, and of ability, as
public accountants. Their reports did them the highest honour and#
credit. As pieces of literary competition, he never saw Rile and!
manner so happily suited to a fubjed. It was neither too elevated
nor too low, but clear, correct, nervous, and intelligible; more
nicely adapted to the occasion than any pieces of writing he had ever
read in his life. He hoped that the gentlemen would be well re
warded for their labours. Undoubtedly they ought to be paid, and
paid lioei ally, and whenever that proposition was made, he promi
sed to give it his hearty support. Mr. Burke said in the course of
his fpeecn, that he nevertheless would oppose continuing the present
Commissioners; not that he had the smallest objection to them as
Public accountants. If any Grangers were to be employed as Com
missioners, he knew none more capable than they had shewn them
lelves, but he would never give up the argument, that appointing
Commissioners, who were not in Parliament, was a scandalous dele
gation of the authority of that ,House, and of powers which they held
in trust only, and could not give out of their hands into the hands of
of others, in conformity to the old maxim of delegatus non boteftdele*
Lord North made a long and very able reply to Mr. Burke, in
w liicli he not only defended his own condu&, but by strong and un
anfwcrable arguments proved, that a Committee of that House, sent
up-flails, could not poflibly have done the fame business with the
fanle efte&. Neither could he as Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor
any other of the accountants already eftabiifr.ed. He fyke of the
reports and of the Commiitioners in terms of the Warmest praise, and
said, some persons might fay, what a report of ten or twenty pages
only ! is that all they have produced? whereas if a Committee had
gone into a room above stairs, their report would have been volumi
nous. Undoubtedly it would, ;but would it have been equally clear
and intelligible? Every body knew it would not, and the reason
was, the Commiflioners had compleatly considered and digested their
thoughts, before they , drew up their reports, which Committees,
above flairs, for a thousand obvious reasons, never could, or never
did. His Lordship said further, beyond all question, the Commis
sioners muff be paid. No gentlemen could poflibly have imagined
the contrary. He had originally intended to have infertcd a clause
for that purpose in tlie bill, but at tlie request of gentlemen on the
other fide the House, he omitted it; and now it was the desire of the
Commissioners themselves, that their labours might precede their
reward, and that the House might be fully enabled to judge of their
deserts before any payment for their trouble was required. His
Lordfllip went through all Mr. Burke's remarks, and replied to them
one by one; at length he said, he believed he had answered drery
thing but his wit, and that, he was ready to acknowledge, was un
answerable ; the Hon. Gentleman being greatly his funerior in that
rcfpecf.
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