United States oracle and Portsmouth advertiser — Portsmouth, N.H., 1802-02-27 00:00:00, page 1

r# VoI.XIL) >Ai URDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 1802.
HOUSE of REPRESENTATIVE/:
AT WASHINGTON,JAN.2S, I? 01 U
MR. BAYA RD called up the fol
lowing resolution, whim he had
feme days previously laid upon the ta
ble, viz.
“ Resolved, That the Secretary of the
TreaJurj, be required to la, before this
boufe, an account in detail, of the expences
incurred in the collection of the internal rev
enues of ^United States; diflinguifoing
where the fame may be practicable, the ex
fences attending the collection in each brartch
of the said revenue, and also, an eflimate of
reduction of said expences which may con
veniently be made." The resolution hav
ing been read, he . observed:
As it is extremely possible, Mr. Speak
er, that it is defigroed that this resolu
tion Shall Share the fame fate with that
which the resolution of th& gentleman
from New-York experienced this morn
ing, I Shall be allowed at lead, by pub
licly stating, to juftify to the world, the
motive which induced me to bring it
forward. [Mr. B. alluded to a resolu
tion offered by Mr. T. Morris, the ob
jea of which was to dired the Secreta
ry of the Treasury to state to the house
the amount of damp duties collected id
each state, distinguishing what part was
paid by the commercial cities. When
the resolution was taken up there was
a call for the question. Nothing was
said against the propriety of it. It be
ing merely a call for information, and
considered so much a matter of course,
to agree to such resolutions, when no
opposition was made to them, it was
not supposed necessary to fay any thing
on the propriety and reasonableness of
the resolution. Yet to the aftonithment
of i^s friends, when the quefton was
put, there were for it 34,againft it 54.]
Gentlemen are infinitely deceived,
said Mr. B. if they think our objed is,
by any particular mode of proceeding,
to gain an unfair advantage of public
Pinion. If such a suspicion be enter
tained, our chndud has been viewed
with a jaundiced eye. It is a motive
which never has, and I hope, never will
dired cur measures. If popularity is
to be gained only by a prostitution of
principle to ignorant and unthinking
prejudice, we are content to forego it.
I am far from being indifferent to pub
lic opinion ; the approbation of our fel
low-citizens is theonly reward we can ex
pert for our services; but it is a reward
no honest man will seek, if it is to be ac
quired only by artifice and deception.
I have avowed, and avowed firicere-,
ly, that I am disposed to go hand and
hand with gentlemen in the reduction
of public burthens. When it was nec
essary, I affixed in imposing them—
now that circumstances permit, I more
cheerfully cooperate in taking them
"off. My true object is to mhke the
most of c> ur Situation ; not to be delud
ed by empty theories, or speculative
systems, but by an enlarged' view of the
various interests of the country, to dis
cover by the reduction of what taxes
the society would be the most substan
tially benefited.
The reduction of the military estab
lishment creates considerable Savings :
other retrenchments are contem
plated in the , navy and civil ad
ministration. These Savings enable Us
to dispense with certain taxes, but is it
not wife to examine diligently the ope
ration of the several taxes which exist,
and after being informed by the vari
ous views which belong to the fubjed,
to exonerate the community from those
which with the least benefit are the
most bur thenfome t
One great objßion to the internal
taxes is the expence of colledion. I
wish to know the particulars of this ex
pence in order to fee whether it may
not be curtailed. I wiSh also to be in
formed of the expences attending each
branch of the revenue, for the purpose
of judging whether it may not be ex
pedient to retain some branches while it
may be wife to part with others. These
are my objects ; do they not entitle us
to the information asked ?
We know, in one instance, that tire,
expence in colleding the stamp duty is
less than 5 per cent. This appears by
the report of the Secretary of the trea
sury ; but we are no| informed of the
particular expences belonging to the
other branches of the revenue.
Do gentlemen mean to lockup the
doors of the executive offices, and dcr%
AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE, TWENTY-SIXTH YEAR.
Q, ALL TRE DISPOSITIONS AND HABITS WHICH LEAD TO TOLITLC4LI
prosperity, RELIGION And MORALITY ake indispensable >
supports. WASHINGTON'S legacy. J
PORfSMOOTH, NH. Printed and Published ever,
CONGRESS.
Portsmouth
©nitesStates
lifhed. He therefore hoped the ques
tion would be taken by yeas and nays.
' The clerk, at the request of Mr. Ra
ndolph, read an extraCt from the report
of the Secretary of the Treasury, as
follows:
“ It will appear by the fame State
ment, (M.) that while the expences of
collection on merchandize and tonnage
the general good which they are pursu
ing, but local and partial advantage 1
Can information injure us ? If die
projed contemplated is a corred one,
will it not be promoted rather than pb-
ftruded by the information called for ?
Form, own par^Sir, I want this
information, in Order to difeover the
course which it is my duty to pursue.
I do not feel myfelf committed as to
any particular plan.
If it fliould really be found, that it
is better to tax articles of necessary con
sumption than those of mere luxury,
that a tax on carriages is more oppres
sive than a tax on salt, or brown sugar,
I Should certainly yield to the convic
tion, however unexpededly it might as-
which are defrayed out of the revenue,
do not exceed 4 per cent, those on per
manent internal duties, amount to al
most 20 per cent. This, however, is
an inconvenience, which, on account of
the great number of the individuals on
whom the duties are raised, and their
dispersed Situation throughout the whole
extent of the United States, must, more
or less, attach to the system of internal
taxation, so long as the wants of gov
ernment Shall not require any confide
table extension, and the total amount
of revenue Shall remain inconfidcrable."
Mr. T. Morris. If the hon. gentle
man from Virigirria (Mr. Randolph)
thinks that the extract of the report of
the Secretary of the Treafury,the read
ing of which he has called for, furnish
es the information demanded by myj
honorable friend from Delaware, he is|
mistaken. The Secretary's report gives
you a general estimate of the expense •
of collecting the aggregate of the inter- !
taxes,but does not Specify the charge ;
falling on each separate tax. From the'
Statement exhibited by the Secretary itl
appears, that it cost 20 per cent, to col
led the whole of the internal taxes, but
if the detailed Statement asked for by
the gentleman from Delaware is fur
hithed^ it will appear, that the collec
tion of some of those taxes does not cost
more than five or fix per cent. To Shew
how unfair it is to connect together the
expence attending the collection of all
the internal taxes, I need only refer
gentlemen to an authority which I be
lieve they will not dispute. If my
.memory, Sir, is not very incurred, it
will appear by a publication of the pres
ent Secretary of the Treasury, written
in the year 1796, thatthe tix on coun
try diftilleties cost in its colledion near
30 per cent, that on city distilleries a
bout 19. These, Sir, and other rea
sons, may evince the propriety of re
pealing the tax on country distilleries,
but because this ta* is expensive in its
colledion, because it may be liable to
objections, does it follow that other tax
es, such as the tax on carriages, on re
fined sugars, &c. which fall on the rich,
and which are not expensive in the col
lodion, does it follow, I fay, that # be
cause it may be proper to repeal the firft
that these are to fall too ? It is, fir, in
order to be enabled to make proper
discrimination, to be enabled to know
I which of these taxes ought to be repeal-
I ed, and which retained, that the gen-"
I ueman from Delaware has moved his
resolution—And here, fir, let me be
permitted to express a hope, that the
1 resolution now before you may not meet
the silent negative which was the fate >
lofI of one intended also to procure informa
tion,and which Ihad the honor of laying
I on yout table. I did and do still believe
fir, that the majority oCthis house could
not have been adpated by proper motive/
in refufing that information. (Here
fail me.,,
Sir, I must rely upon it that the re
solution will be agreed to ; there is not
a precedent, in ou[ annals, of opposition
to such a resolution ; if, however, one
is now to be introduced,! think it prop
er, that the names of those. gentlemen
Should hereafter appear, by whom it
was refilled, and by whom it was eftab-
signed to fnpply to this house ? Are
they afraid of the light which may be
thrown on this fubjed? Are they afraid
that it will be difeovered that it is not
the information those offices were de-
Mr. Randolph called Mr. Morris to or
der, faying that he had no right to im
peach the motives of members.) Mr.
Morris observed that for his part he was
at a log to know what was considered
disorderly in that house, but that he would
submit to the cofredioa of the chair.
( I'he Speaker determined him to bein
order.) Mr. Morfis proceeded—With
regard, Sir, to the course of proceeding
which gentlemen hive lately adopted,
peffevering in an inflexible silence, re
jecting every proposition made by a
member in the minority without deign
ing to (hew its fallacy ; refilling public
documents for our information,and that
of our fellow-citizens, without shewing
or even pretending to (hew that they
are< unnecessary, I can only fa, that it
militates against all my ideas of propri
ety. I have always hitherto supposed,
that every reprefentativoon this floor
had a right to be beard ; that he had a
right to call bn the majority for their
reasons, both when they supported and
opposed public measures. Gentlemen
may, if they pleafe,mcet in what, (when
power was in other hands, they have
denominated caucuses ;) they may then
confer together about the measures in
which they may think proper to unite,
,but, Sir, if their debates are to take
place there, and there alone, if we are
not to be furnithed here by them with
the reasons which induce them to adopt
public meafares, they ought at least to
open their doors to the minority in Or
der that, if they cannot hear their ar
guments in the proper place, they may
not lose them altogether. I trust, Sir,
that gentlemen theinfelves will fee the
impropriety, of persevering in this line
of condud, and that they will consent
to pay, if not to gentlemen in the mi
nority, at least to their propositions, the
attention and refped which they may
deferve.-^
Mr. Griswold ftid, th^t he pre
sumed the gentleman from Virginia
(Mr. Randolph) had requeued that
the extract from the report of the
Secretary of the Treasury might be
read, and which the house had just
heard, for the purpose of proving that
the refoludou under confederation
ought to pass. Indeed that report and
the statement to which it referred,
evinced in the mod'fatisfaCtory man
net, that the information required by
the resolution was absolutely necessary
for the purpose of enabling the house
to decide understandingly on th: pro
position which it was expected would
form be brought forward for abolishing
the internal taxes The secretary in his ,
report had declared that the expence
of collecting internal taxes amounted
nearly to 20 per cent on the amount
collected. It appeared, however, from
t^ statements to which the secretary
had alluded, that the tax on Rills, the
carriage-tax, the tax on licences, on
sales at auction, and the tax on refined
sugar, had been included in one class,
and the expense in collecting all those
taxes, without diftingnifhing the char
ges on each branch had teen Rated to
be nearly 20 per cent, whilst the expense
of collecting the damp duty, another
branch of the internal taxes, was short
of 5 per cent, varying only a fraction
from the charges on the revenue from
impost and tonnage. Theft statements
might be fatisfa&ory as far as they
went, but jt was obvious that in ex
amining the branches of a revenue with
a view to the expense of collection, it
, became neceflary to afeertain the pre
cise charge which had fallen on each
branch, am| to obtain this necessary in
formation, and which the report and*
statements, had left defective, the refo
lutipn had, been principally brought
forward—And what had rendered this
information peculiarly necessary at this
time was the ground which bad been
taken in opposition to the internal taxes.
The only argument which he had heard
against those taxes, and which did not
equally apply to the impost, was drawn
from "vthe great expense which had ari
sen in the collection. To enable.-the
house, therefore, to decide whether the
fact ejifted on which that, argument
had been founded, it became neccllary
to enquire, in the manner proposed by
the resolution, whether the extraordi
nary expense, with which those taxes
had been charged, might not be dimin
ished, aqd whether the expense really
existed in relation to each description
of them.'
Mr. G. said, he prefilmed no gentle-
man was prepared to fay, that the gen
eral expense of collection might not be
diminished ; and so far was he from be
lieving that every branch of the inter
nal taxes was fubjeded to the charge
of 19 or 20 per. cent, he was perfectly
confident that, if gentlemen would a
grec to the resolution, the detailed state
ments, which the secretary would fin
nifh in obedience to it, would prove th!-
expense of collecting certain branches
of those taxes, would fall much Short
of the sum at which the fame has been
estimated.
The consent of the house, said Mr.
G. to every call for information, had
formerly been so much a matter of
course that he Should not have troubled
the house with any remarks upon so
plain a question as the present, had not
the experience of this day proved, that
gentlemen were not always to be in
dulged by the house with the informa
tion which they required ; andjhe pro
found silence which had at this time
been observed by those gentlemen who
could either admit or rejed the resolu
tion, appeared to indicate a determina
tion on their part to refufe the impor
tant and necessary information required
by the resolution. He did presume,
however, that upon this occasion the
house would consent to the resolution,
and more particularly, as the report of
the secretary of the Treasury, which
had been read at the request of the gen- .
tieman from Virginia proved so clear
ly the necessity or palling it.
Mr. Rutledge confeffed himfelf
much puzzled by the new forms of pro
ceeding this day adopted. Ever lince
he had the honor of a feat in Congress,
it had been invariably the prAdice,
when measures were proposed not a
greeal* to the majority, for them to
offer their objections to them." This
had ever been the practice, and the ex
perience of its convenience offered
Strong reasons for its continuance. —
When the majority stated their objec
tions to any measure, the minority in
sustaining it, answered diem fully.—
Thus both sides aded underhandingly;
and when the proceedings of the na
tional legislature went out to the peo
ple, they were at the fame time inform
ed of the reasons under which their re
presentatives had legislated. This had
not only been the usage in Congress, #
but the form of proceeding in all re
presentative bodies, with whose hiftory
we are acquainted. Even in the Bri
tish House of Commons, which gentle
men had often and emphatically styled
a mockery of representation, so great is
this refpea paid to public opinion, that
the majority deem it their duty to assign,
in debate, the reasons of, their conduct
Although the minister in England, has
quite as muchconfidence in the strength
of his majority, as gentlemen here can
have in their's, yet, in feeling power he
dots not forget right, and his regard
for public opinion is so great, that he
never secures liis m^fures by a silent
vote. In these days of innovation, we,
it feems^re to pursue a different course.
When the resolution offered this morn
ing by his honorable friend, from New-
York, (Mr. Morris was taken into
consideration not a voice was raised 4-
gairift it. This profound silence made
us expect a unanimous vote-but (in
consequence he supposed, of some out
door arrangements^ ? twas rejected by
this silent majority. He had seen many
deliberative assemblies, but never be
fore witnessed fuch;a procedure. He
would not fay whether this was refpe&-
ful towards the minority, whom we
have been told from high authority,
have their equal rights—He would 4
not fay whether it wjis dignified, as it
regarded the majority, but without
pretending to any spirit of prophecy
he would venture to fay it could not
be deemed politic or wife by the peo
ple of this country.
When thedoors of Cohgrefs were
open, and persons admitted to take the
debates, the people expeded to be fully
informed of the views and motives
which goveirted the votes of their re
prefentatives. But it seems our con
stituents are not to be, treated with this
heretofore common civility. In pro
posing measures we are obliged to
guess at what gentlemen feel against
them"—for they fay nothing-arid to
defend them, without knowing in what
they are objedionable to those who
govern in this house. This kind of gov
erning is but ill calculated to produce
Saturday Morning, by WILLIAM TREADWELL, & C^'
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o&rote mm
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harmony—to restore facial intercourse,
and to heJ the wounds inflided on so
ciety by>the spirit of party.
His friend from Delaware, not fat
isfied with the report made by the Sec
retary of the Treasury, refpefting the
expense of eolleding the internal reve
nues, begs that we may have a further
report, and one more in detail ; he de
clares, that we really want more infor
mation to riffift us in forming our 0-
pinions. But gentlemen refufe this
reasonable request; they may have fuf
ficiem information ; they may be m
habits of intimacy with the heads of de
partments ; in daily communion with ,
them ; but we are.not, #hd should aR'
with impertinence, were we, by our
perfcnal applications, to occupy the
time of the heads of departments, which
is fully engaged during the fitting of
the legislature
The regular mode to obtain infor
mation is for the house to a4k it. When
heretofore in a majority, he, and his
friends, had always consented to call
upon the heads of departments for an,
information the minority said the,
wanted —he fhoutd continue to vote for
asking whenever any gentleman said
he wanted it—tho' probably he fliould
not be thanked for it, as gentlemen on
the other fide were now so strong as not
to Want his vote. A bill had lately
been introduced for the protection of
. oub Mediterranean trade ; and the gen
tleman on my right from Virginia,with
his friends, wanted information from
the secretary of the treasury, receding
the extent and value of this trade ; to
know whether it was worth protecting ;
I voted for the resolution of the gentle
man from Virginia because he fai^i he
wanted information. I did not want
any, for the reports of the secretary of
the treasury for some years past, had
(bowed the a raount of the trade: beside
,I deefned it our duty, this nation being
so highly commercial, to protect out
trade in all its branches.
Gentlemen on the other fide feeni to
fhriYvk from all our propositions, left
they Should interfere with the favorite
project of annihilating all our internal
revenues : there is no cause for this ap
prehension —the President's me&ge in
vites to this measure, and the friends of
the recommendations of the executive
are too numerous to have their mea
sures obstructed by our efforts. All
we ask for is information relative to
the expense of collecting this part of
the public income—gerittenien fay we
(hall not have it, and yet on all paftoc
cafions, they talked about the proprie
ty, in a popular government, of giving
information to the public, of not econo
mising in diffusing information ; they,
who now refufe information which is
solicited by a large portion of the rep
refentritives of the people. Gentlemen
not only withhold information from us,
but will not assign their reasons far
withholding it—■and to all we urge,
t6ey will not deign to fay any thing
but NO.
Mr, Bayard. Ithank God, if we
have not the advantage of hearing gen
tlemen on the other fide express their
opinions, we have Still the liberty of ex
pressing our own sentiments. Not know
ing how long we may have this hberif,
I will now date further my opinion 011 -
the Subject before the house.
The gentleman from Virginia, (Mr,'
Randolph) without condescending to
speak himfelf, has deigned to ask th4o
clerk to read—what ? An extraCt from
the report of the Secretary ofrhe Trea
sury, Shewing the aggregate expense at
tending the collection of the internal
♦ revenue so be about 20 per cent. But
is this an answer to my enquiry when
I want particular information that Shall
discriminate the expence of colleding
the different branches of this revenue ?
I have another object in view. I with
to know whether the Setyemy of the
Treasury may not devifea plan by
which these taxes may be coUeded on
as good terms as oh articles of hnpoft. -
When informationlias been called
for heretofore, has it ever"been denied?
Have gentlemen a precedent for their
conduct ? Is there, an instance at any
epoch when the strength of afilent vote
opposed information that was wanted ?
Will this information thwart the favor
_ ite views of some? Are gentlemen a
fraid of information, left they could
not carry a favorite project when it
Should appear to be opposed to the pub
lic benefit? Are t^y afraid to let in-
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