The royal gazette — [Charleston] S.C., 1781-09-22 00:00:00, page 4

House of Commons, Ma, 23, 1781.
[Claim of the Public upon the East India Company,
SIR Grev Cooler said, that much of the lafl gentleman's arguments,
as well as those of Mr. Huffey, were irrelative to the motion, and
did hot go to the question now in issue, but to the right of the Public
to the territorial acquisitions in India, a matter that was not then un
der the confederation of the Committee; whenever that right was
made the fubjed of discussion, what the honourable gentleman, who
spoke last, had said, knight be very proper to be considered and de
bated. At prefect, the motion had no reference to it; the motion
was to eftablilh a claim, Undoubtedly in the Public, to three-fourths
of the surplus of the Company's profits after they had reduced their
bond debt to one million five hundred thousand pounds, and had
made yearly dividends of 8 per cent. With regard to the right of
the Crown, as the executive branch of the government, to the terri
torial acquisitions in India, that had not been foregone on any occa
sion, but only the exercise of it had been suspended, from an idea,
that it would be better both for the Public and the Company, to let
the latter hold those acquisitions for the purposes of trade and com
merce, during the time of their agreements for a renewal of their
Charter. That it was wife and proper to suspend that claim hill lon
ger, and to make an agreement with the Company for a renewal of
their Charter at that time, he was most clearly of opinion; and in his
mind, the arguments relative to the present fitnation of the Com
pany's affairs, and of their being distressed, and likely to be flill more
so, did not weigh at all in the scale of objection; the Public were
bound to support the Company, and muff for their own fakes assist
the Company, whenever it was in real distress; therefore neither of
the positions which Gentlemen had laid so much stress upon, in his
ide^, altered or lessened the propriety, not to fay the necessity, of the
Public's bringing the Company to feme agreement; if they did not,
it was clear the Company would not offer any terms, but would be
,lad, he did not doubt, to continue holding over year after year,
without any new conditions being imposed on them. Sir^rey said,
the two yearly bills had been carefully watched word by word,
in the penning of them, by the Company's Counsel, then a mem
ber of that House, who took especial care that the right to the
territorial acquisitions should not be assumed in either bill, but that
the question should be merely suspended, and the agitation of it fore
gone in each. To accede therefore now to the proposition of the
Company, to which the noble Lord had objected, would be to a&
the very contrary part, to what had been added by the Company with
regai ' to the yearly bills, and to give up the right on the part of the
Public altogether. ' Sir Grey also said a word or two in reply to Mr.
Dempfter's argument about the issuing of the Exchequer nills being
left to be fettled between Lord North and the India Directors, de
claring that it was the duty of the Legislature not to leave so impor
tant matter to be fettled by private individuals, be they whom they
Would.
General Smith said, the present was the most important queflion that
bad ever been agitated within those walls; it was perfectly new to the
Committee, and it ought to be difeuffed with the most serious atten
tion. He stated the different ideas of terms, for a renewal of the
Company's Charter, that had at different times been entertained.
He had himfelf been employed, at one time, to adjust propositions
with the noble Lord in the blue ribband; and he recollected, that
one of the conditions then talked of was, ift, the payment, and af
terwards the loan of a million of money at two per cent interest.
That had gone off, and now the noble Lord, feeing the state of the
Company's affairs, was willing to renew the Company's Charter
without infixing on any fine. He wished the fame reasons, that had
Operated in the noble Lord's mind to forego a fine, had also prevail
ed on him to forego a claim, which had no foundation in justice, and
the infilling upon which would materially injure the Company. He
did assure the noble Lord, the Rate of the Company's affairs was
much altered since the year 1778; they could better have afforded to
have given a million of money then, for the renewal of their Charter,
than they could afford to give 600,c001. now. Let the noble Lord
confidcr, how materially every East-India property had fuffered of
late. He could speak of it with great truth, for his fleck had fuffer
ed, almost, he might fay, one hundred per cent, upon the whole of
it. The General talked of the wishes of the Company to keep on
good terms with Government, and said they had taken infinite pains
to hit upoh filch Propositions, as they imagined would not be obj 'di
ed to.^ He begged the noble Lord to point out what alterations he
wished for; and they would endeavour to shape them accordingly.
If Government took the 600,0001. the next year the Company niuft
borrow money to go on with. He conjured the noble Lord there
fore, to withdraw his motion, and to make an amicable agreement
with the Company, whofc profits in point of Commerce, and whose
profits in point of territorial revenue, he declared, it was impoflible
to afeeftain separately and diffin&ly, the one was 10 materially blend
ed and connected with the other.
Air. Burke made a very animated and eloquent speech against the
motion. He observed, that all that had been said in support of the
motion, was merely the fame ground of argument, takenup, as the
noble Lord had firft taken, with some little amplification. He
should, therefore, in replying to the noble Lord, reply to what
other gentlemen had said. The chief of the noble Lord's argument
against the proposition of the Company was this: He would not ac
cede to the proposition, because the'Company did not admit that the
Public had a claim upon them; so that the argument cut double, like
a two edged sword, for it must either be solved thus, “ If you admit
tlte claiihof the Public, I call upon you in behalf of your creditors to
pay their just dues;" or thus, “ If you don't admit the claim, why
then I'll take that by force, which you deny that I ought to receive
as a right." Most admirable reasoning truly ! The noble Lord will
neither beg, borrow, nor receive, as a due; but he'll have it never
theless, and seize upon that by rapine and plunder, he'll deal what
he can't juftify his receiving in any way. After putting this idea in
different Shapes, Mr. Burke said, it was a continuation of that mode
of reasoning, that had prevailed in the lafl Parliament, and had ren
dered it odious and infamotis. The Minister had talked in the fame
o.lc again and again, and the consequence was, our present misera
ble and degraded situation. It was his old Parliamentary language,
and had ruined this country. The Secretary at War's do&rine was,
he said, a counter part of the fame reasoning. He termed the regu
lations eflabliuied by the AH of 1774, a design to obtain money un
der a pretence of eftablifhlng a political reform, and now, he said,
the noble Lord wanted to take away their trade, as he had formerly
taken away their patronage and their purse. Eunuem negotiatorem
Sundem dominum! He had better carry all the business of Leadenhall
hreet at once, and tranfa& it at the Board of Treasury. His reason
ing, to juftify the violence and the force he was pra&ifing, he pro
nounced, fhamefully pitiful. The reasoning of the Lion in the fable
was less censurable—" This I seize, fays the lion, because I have got
teeth ; this, because I wear a made on my neck; this, because I have
claws ; and this lafl morsel, not because I have either truth, reason,
" r . J u ^ ce to support me and juftify my taking it, but because I am a
D'.'/b" . Wl , th re g ard to what Lord North had said, about the pof
"!?"''¥, if the proposition were acceded to, of 600,000!. worth of
bills coming upon the Exchequer, just when the King's fleets and
armies were to be paid, it was, he said, neither more nor lefsthan an
explicit confeffioh, that the noble Lord h@d squandered every Filling
of tlie immense supplies that had been voted for the service of tlie
year, and that he was ^obliged to practife extortion, and force
joo,oooL front the East-India Company, in order to enable himfelf
to pay the King s fleets and armies, the House havirig expressed
great latisfa&ion at a part of Lord North's speech, Mr. Burke said
" wa "he flrouts of the House, and of majorities at the appeals to
the pafhons artfully made by the noble Lord, that had ever been the
fore-runners of some great national evil. No one step of the
Minuter that led to disgrace, defeat, and ruin, but had been pre
* by, lout3 and applause within those walls. In reply to the
praise bellowed on the Secret Committees, that fat on India affairs in
1772, he laid their reports were the cursed Pandora's box, from
whence sprung out that dreadful calamity, the American war. To
those reports was the worst of evils afcribeable, that had befallen
this country for many, many years! In the latter part of his speech
^ m °^ w "? and violent, and said the present motion was
the daring effort of a Mmifter determined on rapine and plunder
without regard to truth, honour or justice : a violent and shameless a C
tempt to rob the Company, in oedtr to puffin: the purposes of the most
Parliamentary Proceedings.
lavish waste and the most profligate corruption, the noble Lord might
truly be said to be al'ani a,pe!ens,fuiprrfufa. He conjured the Commit
tee not to join the noble Lord and his adherents, faying, " Let us not
deduce European supplies from Asiatic rapacity. Let us shew ourselves
awake to the calls of reason and alive to the impure of equity!" After
bandying about a number of hard &ords, and bellowing every harsh
epithet on the motion, that indignation could supply, he concluded
with faying, that he was sure, notwithflanding his endeavours, and
those of every friend to justice, to prevent the motion from being
agreed to, that such would be its fate; yet in difeharge of his duty,
he would move an Amendment. He therefore moved, that the
following words be added to the motion : " No grounds having been
" laid before the Committee, on which the right of the Public to a
'' participation of the territorial revenue of the Company are found
" ed; or, if they have such a right, no grounds to shew that they
" have a right to this particular proportion of the profits."
The Lord Advocate rose and said, he felt some difficulty in replying
to what different gentlemen had said against the motion, which he
considered as a wife motion, as a prudent motion, and as a motion
every way fit and juftifiable. Gentlemen had differed in their argu
ments on which they had laid the greatest stress, so widely, that it
was scarcely within the reach of his abilities to colledt the whole of
what had been said against the motion, and so far reconcile the argu
ments of one gentleman to the arguments of another, as to dire& a
reply that was tolerably applicable to the substance of what had been
suggested against the motion. One gentleman had told the Com
mittee that the motion was not only a matter of the firll importance,
but that it was matter perfedlly new, for that it had never been agi
tated within those walls. Another gentleman, the honourable gen
tleman who spoke last, had said, the matter was as old as the man
ner of treating it; that wliat had been said in support of it, was old
Parliamentary language, and that every thing advanced by the noble
Lord was correspondent witn a stile which hp had used again and
again under that roof. If he was to determine which of the two
gentlemen were in the right, he should beinclined to take part with
the Hen. gentleman who spoke lass, and to suppose his noble friend
in the blue ribband had advanced nd new doctrines, and that he had
held no new language, but had talked in an old Parliamentary man
ner; for what had the noble Lord flood up in defence of? The right
of the Public to a claim agitated before in Parliament, originating
in two resolutions of the House of Commons, recognized in full
form upon the Journals, and considered by every man conversant in
the interest, connection, and analogy of the Public, with the East-
In^ia Company, as a claim perfectly fair, perfe&ly just, and as a
claim which the Public had a right to infill on, whenever the Public
thought proper so to do. After enforcing this position with great
ability, the Lord Advocate said, with regard to the calculations da
ted by Mr. Huffey, though he was fully convinced that the Honour
able Gentleman on no occasion, neither in that House nor without it,
meant to deceive, yet he mud declare that a fallacy run through the
whole of his arguments grounded upon these calculations, which de
stroyed their effect, and rendered them totally nugatory, and totally
improper to be relied on for a moment. The honourable Gentleman
had grounded every one of those calculations on a proposition, which
he never would admit, and which, he was fatisfied, was not to be
supported; and that was, that it was possible so to fepdrate the com
mercial and the territorial expences of the Company, as to be able to
afeertain the quantum of each, with a fufficient degree of exadtnefs,
to be able to take any such calculations as grounds of argument and
reasoning, that could be relied on, or could warrant any deductions
'vhatpyer. Ihe honourable Gentleman who spoke last but one. [Gen.
Smith] had told the Committee, and he believed with great truth,
that tlie commercial and territorial matter of expence and profit,
where so materially blended and conne&ed, that it was impossible
for the Company themselves, to fcparate them with fufficient clear
ness and fufficient accuracy, to define which was which, or to give
even a tolerable gueis at the real flute and amount of each. All argu
ments therefore built on fucli a balls, mud necessarily fall to the
ground. He next adverted to Mr. Burke's argument, and said not
withstanding the rapine, plunder, injustice, and other hard words,
which the honourable Gentleman had applied to the present motion,
and the noble mover of it, ne trailed the Committee would judge for
themselves, would confider coolly and candidly of the noble Lord's
motives, and would adl in fucli a manner as they thought his conduct
deserved. He justified the taking the 600,000!. on the ground, that
if i,ioo,oocl. was fuffered to remain in the Company's coffers, it
would draw an inundation of Bills over'from the Asiatic plunderers
abroad. With regard tothe right of the Public to the territorial ac
quisitions, he had, he said, considered tlie fubje& very deeply, he
had often thouglit upon it with great seriousness, and he had not a
doubt as to the right; but if he had entertained the smallest doubt, it
would have been entirely removed by the very great authorities,
Which had in the most express terms delivered decided opinions in
favour of the Public; the authorities to which he alluded, were
those 01 the present Lord Camden and the late Mr. York, men as
able and as capable of advising as any man that had ever lived in any
period! We have not time to follow his Lordship further, in his
speech, which was, as usual, extremely able, manly, and convin
cing.
Mr. Tempter made a reply to the Lord Advocate, and began it
with answering something which the learned Lord had said, relative
to the Company s being forced by their Charter to have fadlories in
India, and to defend those fadlories. He also inflanced the resigning
the Manillas to the Company, when captured, last war, by Sir°Wil
liam Draper, and the country round Madras (the revenue of which a
mounted to some hundreds of thousands of pounds) when conquered
by the King's troops under the command of Sir Eyre Coote, in con
cert with the troops of tlie Company, as inconteftible proofs, of a ge
neral opinion having prevailed, that the Company were entitled to
the territorial acquisition and their revenues, as veiled in them, as
chartered rights. Mr. Dempfter advised the trying the question in
a Court of Law. He said the Company and Parliament were both
parties in the eaufe, and therefore it was most unconstitutional in
that House, to undertake to decide which had the right. The Courts
of law were all open, and could determine the matter in as little
time, as it would cost Parliament to adjust the bargain.
Mr ^ Huffey also said a few words in answer to what the Lord Ad
vocate had said against the calculations slated by him. Mr. Huffey
likewise asserted, that the Public had received two millions from the
Company, exclusive of the indemnity on tea.
Mr., Burke made a most passionate reply to parts of the Lord Ad
vocate's speech. He deemed what the learned Lord had said about
Asiatic plunderers, an appeal to the passions, and miserable fluff.
The Lord Advocate said a few words in reply, and at length the
question was put on Mr. Burke s amendment, when tlie numbers
were, „ Ayes, 52. Noes, 151.
The main question moved by Lord North was then put and agreed
The House rose at NINE o'clock,
[To BE CONTINUED.]
Mr. Gregory followed, and differed from several of his friends.
He thought the noble Lord right in coming to an immediate agree
ment with tlie Company, and wished he had taken that method and
fettled the bargain two years ago. Mr. Gregory said the Company
deserved great praise for having extended their territorial acquisitions.
The Public' reaped very considerable benefits in consequence of it.
He said further, that tlie Company would be out of cash in about
three months, and in October they would be in cash again. He fear
ed, that taking 600,0001. might be of ill consequence to the Com
pany's interests.
FOR SAL E,
te_M Two commodious, well finifhed,
Brick Tenements,'
Almost new, No. 1 and 2 in Chalmers's-Alley, ver,
B B near and convenient to the Bay, and each tenement
Efficiently roomy for a family of five or fix. Enquire
at No. ^O, King-street. ™
To be fold at Public Sale, before the Exchange, on Thursday,
the 4th of Oaobe, next,
OEVEN very valuable NEGROES, being a very good house-
D wench, with five healthy children, and another Wench used to
house work, to be fold under attachment by order of the Board of
Pohcea ^ JOHN DAVIES, Sheriff.
S. MIDW6o D,
No. p, Bedon's Alley,
HAS FOR SALE,
A Quantity of Negro Clqth, Flannels, Baizes, Bed 1-
Shalloons and Durants, which he will fell by th
Package, on the lowed Terms. f ° ™'c or
AL S O,
A few Purcbeons of High Proof JAMAICA SPlßrrc
To be Soid, for Gafb,
By the SUBSCRIBE R,
r On reasonable Terms,
The following ARTICLES
Imported in the Favourite-Betsey• '
PORT, Wine in Pipes and Hogsheads
Ditto in Bottles and Cases of 10 dozen each
Vidonia Wine in Pipes
Madeira and Lisbon in Cases of 10 dozen each
Hyfon, Singlo, Souchong, Congo and Bohea Tea 9
A few Cases of E^rthern Ware
Ditto ditto Perfumery
Mens and Womens Hose, silk, thread and cotton
Ditto Gloves, ditto
Womens Petticoats in small Trunks
Palhionable flriped Stocking Waistcoats
A few Bales of Slops, assorted
Mens and Womens Flats
Printed Linens, Gauzes and Chintzes
A small Package of Hardware
A few Cases of Playing Cards
v Ditto Muflard
Ditto Tin Plates
Gold and Silver Lace and Epaulet#
A dozen Grapnails from r cwt. 2 qrs. to ,qr«. g%
''ll" A"''" °' an exce ll ent make, from 4 cwt. 2q r s tsy
Cordage of all forts from Cablets of 6 inches to roue , ,
to 4 inches
Rattling of all sizes, Spun-yarn, and
A Quantity of Oakum.
t NICOL PRIMEROSE, No. 3, Broafafe
GREENWOOD iAlTgge
At their Store, No. 44, on the Bay, 1
Have the following well chosen Goods
Just imported in the Ship London, Capt. John Rainier /
London, zubiJj fley Mil diftfe of by the Package reafonabb'
Case or Government Bills, viz. hj<
BLUE and white Plains
Fine milled ditto, far superi
or in Quality to any imported
Bed Blankets
Broap Hoes, Nails, and most ufe
ful Articles of Ironmongery
Rice and Flour Sieves
Crates of Staffordshire Ware, and
Hogfhea^s of earthen ditto,
well assorted
Hogfbeads of assorted Tin "War''
IRISH Linens at all Prices
from is. zd. to 7s.
Irish and Rnffia Sheeting
German and Scotch Ofnaburgs
Hats of all Sizes and Prices
Coarse Callicoes and printed Cot
tons
Plain and coloured Lutefirings
Black and white Gauze
Thread Edging
Ribbands, Chipt Hats
Gauze Handkerchiefs
Trimmings for Caps
White Sarfnet
Black India Persian
Cambrick, Corduroy
Corded Dimity
Russia Drab
JOHN TELF A ll;
Has for Sale, at No. 90, Church-street,
THE FOLLOWING GOODS;
On the most reasonable Terms, by the Package
For Cash or Government Bills, viz.
A FEW bales of Negro-Cloth, white, blue and green
Ditto Broad-Cloths 4s. to 11s. firfl cost, wid
suitable trimmings
I>itto Duffils, grey, brown, claret and nihe
with ditto
Ditto Kerfeys
Ditto Sagathies and Duroys with ditto
Trunks of Womens cloth Cloaks and Cardinals, all colours
Ditto Cutlery well assorted
English Bohea and fine green Tea
Cinnamon and Mace
Turpentine and white Soap
Mould Candles. ;{„
JUST IMPORTED.
In the Pallas and British Hero, from London, andi
other the latefl rebels from Europe, &c.
A compleat ASSORTMENT of
Ufeful Drugs and Medicines,
Which die for SALE, at No. 9, Orange-Street,
Wholesale or Retail, viz.
GLAUBER Salts at two Drillings and fix-pence per Pounds
Epsom Salts at Two Shillings and Fourpence, and by the calk
cheaper ; a large quantity of Copperas, Allum, Brimstone, fd
Nitre, Sal Ammoniac, Aqua Fortis and Sal Signette; best Jefuitsßarti
Eleutheria and Cafcarilla Parks, Aloes, Columbo Root, Russia ^
East-India Rhubarb, Castor, Opium, Spanish Flies, Manna, Chai
momile Flowers, Senna, Cream of Tartar, Affafoetida, Nux
mica, Arfenick, Coculus Indicus, Magnesia of a superior o,alq
to what is generally imported; Tartar Emetic warranted, Spirit
of Lavender, Hartfliorn, and all other Volatile Spirits and Saksli
Oils of Cinnamon, Cloves, Bergamot, Lemons, Annifeed,^
most other Chymical Oils; Liquorice Roots and Juice, Sperwk
creti, Salop, Sago, Spices, and Mocco Coffee; Quick-Silver, and^
its preparations; Antimony, and its preparations; Dr. Huxhamt
Bitters, so necessary at this fcafon of the year, at 10 s. per quart
Stoughton's Bitters, at 2s. per bottle, or 18s. the dozen; Turl^'
ton's Balsam, large bottles, at 5% Dr. James's Powders, at fs.
packet; empty phials, old Batavia Arrack, with a variety of
articles, on the lowest terms, for Cash or Bills of Exchange.—^
ficians, and Practitioners in Phyiic and Surgery, on taking an Alton '
ment, will be fuppTdon much lower terms than usually fold.
As the fubferiber intends as soon as may be, after his arrival
England, to eflablifli and be concerned in a House here, in the Drii
Medicine, Grocery, Perfumery, and Oil Man's Branches, on a
extensive plan than ever was in this Province, he fells at thefc lo
prices, to shew such of his former Customers or those who may
deal with him whilst here, or favour the Concerned in future
their orders, how reasonably they may, even in these times, be fop
plied, and yet afford an ample profit to the Importer. ..
The HOUSE in Orange-Street, and LOT in King-Street, are
ft r Sale.—Conditions may be known b" anplving to
t SAMUEL CARNE, No. 9, Orange-Streep
EOR SA L E,'
By JOHN SMITH,'
No. 14, Broad-Street,
On the lowefl Terms for Cash only,
Ofnaburgs and Sheetings of an„
traordmary good Qualityl
Cases of GlaL Ware, confiffo
Tumblers, Wine Glass es
Boxes of Crown Window GW,
xoby 8, IT by ? , and
Boxes of Long Pipes glazed
Two Packages of Brnffiefo
Fine old Porter in Hofa
Barrels and Bottles. • 1
I &C. &c. &c.
Cotton Check and Stripe
Threads of all Sorts
Blue and black Callimancos ani
Durants
Handkerchiefs of all Softs
Coarse blue and brown Cloth
German Serge
Blue and white Plains, from a
to 2s. 4± per yard
Mens and Womens on,tread
and worsted St ckl gs
Black Pepper
Bohea, Green ard Fyfo iTa
Coffee, Florence C.l
Loaf Sugar
Nails, Locks, Handsaws, Ham
mers, Knives and Forks, an!
Some Oars for Sale.