The Pennsylvania packet, or, The general advertiser — Lancaster, Pa.;Philadelphia, Pa., 1782-09-17 00:00:00, page 2

F rOT the N^Y^k ROYAL GAZETTE, Sept id, tfz.
HOUSE of CO M MONS. Tuesday July 9.
YESTERDAY in conference -f the expectation formed,
that Mr. Fox would explain the daufe of his resignation,
the greatest crowd perhaps ever remembered, flocked down at
• the house by twelve o'clock, and before one, n< t only the lob
by but every avenue leading to it was compleatly filled up.
When the speaker came it was with extreme difficulty that way
could be m ide for him, and as loon as he had entered the house
the Grangers in the lobby forced open the door, and the gallery
was filled in an instant. After this, the strangers outof the
house wee so numerous, that they reached oown into Westmin
ster ball, and many hundreds continued about the lobby, until
the house broke up.
Tie members came down very fall towards three o'clock, and
as soon as the Weaker had taken the chair, there were at least
four hundred in the house. Amongst the strangers were the
dukes of Drvonfhi e, Rutland and Richmond, the earl Chol
mondley, 1 rd vifeount Townshend, lord Scarborough, lord
Wentworth, lord Gage, and a great many perlons of rank and
fafhion.
The prelfure upon the door being opened, was so exceedingly
great, that many persons were much hurt, some even trampled
under feet, and others so fatigued in getting in, as co faint a
<vay a'ter they were seated.
[Here follows a debate on colonel Barre's pen fion.]
GENERAL CONWAY, having exprefled his opinion up
on this matter, thought it incumbent in him to touch up
ton another affairof more importance, and which refpe6l:ed the re*
fignation of a certain right honourable gentleman lately high in
office, the loss of whose services he, in common with the public,
deeply lamented. He thought this a Matter of the highest con
sequence to the public, and that they ought to be informed of,
every particular rcfpecTng it. For his part he did not care how
much the world were acquainted with it. He would be as ex
plicit as the nature of the bufrnefs would admit of. As to the
reason of his continuing in office, it was entirely in consequence
of the fame system of measures bring continued as that when he
and the honourable secretary (Mr. Fox) went into office was
laid down. He knew of no difference. He did not know that
it had been departed from in the smallest instance, of that it was
meant to be done. If that Mould be the case or appear to be hi
view, he pledged himfelf to the house, that he would riot only
resign, but from that very moment oppose the minister to the
utmost of his power. At present, however, as he saw no de
parture from the system that was laid down, or any intention
to depart from it, he did not think he ought to quit the office
he held, or desert the minitiers he had aded with.
The honourable gentleman said, it was nothing new for him
to give an opinion on the American war. He had often spoken
cf it very fully, arid he believed that gentleman even to this day
were quite undetermined upon it. For his part he bad always
considered the granting independence to America, as an evil that
was forcing itfelf upon this country. At firft he conferfed he
had been much against it, but various circumflances had occasi
oned him to alter his mind, and he was now convinced, that
the granting the independence of America, was the only means
of bringing about a peace with that country, and he understood
that the present minidry were for granting the independence of
it. If they were not, he was greatly mistaken; he did not pre
tend to the Mining faculties and fplended talents of the right ho
nourable gentleman (Mr. Fox) but he did lay claim to a com
mon understanding, and if he did know any thing at all, hd
certainly knew, that he was promoting, by his continuing in
office, the independency of America. This, he thought ought
to go abroad as soon and as fully as possible, for he thought it
very material indeed, that the people of America Mould know,
that the present ministry had the belt intentions towards them.
The honourable gentleman thought the debate that had arisen
upon the resignation of the right honourable gentleman (Mrj
Fox) of such raft consequence, and of so serious a nature, that
too much openness could not be used on the occasion. He should
therefore state to the house, the articles which the present mi
nistry fubferibed to, upon coming into office, which were five;
and not one of which he could venture to fay, had in the least
degree been departed from. The five articles wete:
ift, That the independency of America Mould be made
the basis of all negociation for a peace.
ad. That the independence of the thirteen Mates of North
America, Mould be acknowledged in the mode of ac
compliMing or bringing about a peace with them.
3d. That a reform is necessary in the expenditure of pub
lic money, and all useless and unnecessary offices.
4th. That the mifeondud tof East-India delinquents
Mould be enquired into.
sth. That though the prerogative of the crown Mould at
all times be properly fapported, a reform of the repre
sentation of the people is necessary, in order to make
it the more agreeable to the constitution.
These, the right honourable gentleman said, were the articles
which the ministry agreed to, and which, in his opinion, they
would abide by. He therefore could not fee any occasion for
breaking up the administration. For his part, there were little
niceties he did not look at, nor was he ever influenced by the
thirst of power, and squabbles after titles and places, which
Others appeared so fond of. He afted from ,principle, without
regard to any man, or set of men; and when the present minis
ter Mould be found to deviate from the system laid down, he
would no longer continue in administration. But at present, he
did not know, that he had in any refpe& departed from the
principles he held, and consequently that he ought to give up the
situation he held.
With regard to the division in the cabinet, which the right
honourable gentleman (Mr. Fox) had assigned as a principal
claofe for leaving the administration, he did not think it at all
surprising that eleven men, of which the cabinet is formed,
Mould sometimes differ in opinion; but with regard tojhe inde
pendence of America, he thought that they had always had one
mind about it; and he did not, he declared to God, know that
they had any ways departed from it. When he could with any
reason fufpe& it, he would renounce the present minister, and
henceforth attack him to the utmost of his power.
Mr. Fox rose again, and began by observing, that during the
long time he had fat in that house, he never rose with such a
pressure on his mind, or in a situation so truly important to him.
He had however, two things that would uphold him ; the one
Was, that what he had done had met the fatisfa&ion of his own
mind; and the other was, that there were those who were pleas
ed to think he had done right, and concurred with him in the
opinion he had of the present minister. This he said, was but
a secondary relief, but it was a very great one.
The honourable gentleman said, the right honourable gentle
man had read a paper over as the articles of agreement between
the ministers, that he never saw, or ever before heard of. He
Was very sure that when he was in office, no such article was a
greed to as the independence of America, he meant the uncondi
tional independence of America ; and if the ministry had adopted
it since he left them, he was very glad that his being out of of
fice had induced them to do what they would never do while in
office. The honourable gentleman and he, he said, had some
times been together in opinion, and many times in opposition;
but however much they might have differed in opinion, they had
lievefrbefore differed in point of fa&. He had, indeed, Mated to
He Was willing to allow the right honourable gentleman every
praise that was His dde, and he was certainly equal to any
raan for the purity of his intentions; but at the timd hd said
this, if any one Mould aft him who. of all the men that ever
lived, had done his country moM mifehief, he would fay the
honourable gentleman. He then went into a history of his po
litical life, which he treated with an equal degree of ridicule
*rid contempt. In the year 1766, he came in with the noble
marquis, whose loss had been so much lamented, and when that
administration he formed was supplanted by the administration,
that brought this country to the brink of deftruftion, the hon
ourable gentleman joined it, and continued with it till he saw
that they were no longer to be supported. In the fame manner
the honourable gentleman came into administration with the late
marquis on the 27th of March last, and has since joined the very
men that have fuperceded his miiriftry, and who mean to pur
sue a system of measure's they had uniformly oppefed. He doubt
ed not but that the right honourable gentleman's stay with those
men would be of a very Mort duration, and that he would, be
fore long, be glad to make his retreat from them. He Mould
not, therefore, be angry with him and his friends, that they
were eroding a fortrefs, in which he might take Melter when
he Mould find himfelf, as he trusted he would before long, obli
ged to fly from those men he was acting with and fupportihg, in
the fame way he did the administration thA before supplanted the
noble marquis's administration.
The honourable gentleman said, he had always corifidered him
felf a person that house could fend into administration as one in
whom they could confide; and while he continued in it, it would
be very natural for them to confider every thing right. As he
could not be of that opinion, and as his being in office would
mislead the public, he had no other way in which to Mew him
felf an honed man, but to resign. Nay, had any one individual
elector of the city, he had the honour to represent, alked his
opinion of the ministry, he could not have given such a one of
them, ds would have juftified his continuing in office. He de
clared upon his honour, that he had no private motion for his
conduct. He always had, and always would aft upon public
grounds. Had he not given proof of his public spirit? Was it
nothing to give up a splendid situation? A most lucrative of
fice; and extensive patronage? To fay that he had no ambiti
on, or that it was a matter of indifference to him, whether he
was poor or rich, would be highly ridiculous, and what he
would not affe&. He had his ambition as well as other men,
and also his desires of wealth ; but these he had relinquiffied to
the more pleasing impulse of an honest mind. The emoluments
of his office had been rather convenierit to one who had not a
large fortune to boast of, and his situation was highly acceptable
to him, because it enabled him to oblige those he loved and re
fpefted, and who had served him most difinteretledly. The ho
ourable gentleman again returned to general Conway, and a
mongst a variety of observations of the most cutting nature, said,
that if he had a thousand ideas, he would facrifice them again
and again, to the being well with those for whom he conceived
a partiality.
The honourable gentleman drew a comparison between the
late noble marquis, and the present firft lord of the treasury,
and was of opinion, that it would by mb means tell to the disad
vantage cf the former. He reprobated and derided the idea of
the present minister Continuing in power, and doubted not but
that the time would ffiortly come, when those who did not fee
as he did, would behold the folly and wickedness of the prefect
system. He knew that every influence would be used, and he
knew that influence was great; but he knew they had not the
confidence of the people, and that they would never be able to
pass themselves upon the public as the ministry lord Rockingham
formed, but would be properly known, as being of the very fame
completion as the old ministry ; whose mifconduft had undone
us.
He took notice of the honourable gentleman's assertion, that
the king was at liberty to appoint his own minister, and did not
mean to dispute the right, but he had at the fame time a right
to resign; that right he had exercised, not from any personal
( ' confederation, but because he had the confidence of she house
when he went into administration, and was thereby bound in
honour not to stay any longer in it than while he could approve
of its measures. He replied to the observation, that it was not
extraordinary, that when the cabinet consisted of eleven men,
there Mould be a difference of opinion. This he said would
happen with any body of men; but what he meant by a divided
cabinet was, that it was well known that the members of it
would vote differently from each other before they came to busi
ness.
The honourable gentleman concluded by observing, that the
present minister had not the confidence of the people; and that
the honourable general would leave him, after he had shifted
him, perhaps, in all the harm he could do his country.
[During the time Mr. Fox was delivering his speech, of which
we have been only able to give a very imperfect idea, the
house was profoundly silent, and ' the cry of hear! hear!
more loud and frequent than we ever remember to have
heard them.]
General Conway affected to take all the ftri&ures on his abili
ties and conduct, such as they were, which came from the ho
nouia.de gentle man in good part# -He regreted the aMfunce and
the house, that there were niceties which he could hot fee. The
right honourable gentleman, he was very sure, had too much
magnanimity of mind, too much generosity of disposition, and
too much complaisance about him, to fee little niceties that a mi
nister might wiffi he Mould turn his eyes from. But what could
he fay of those niceties? He would tell the honourable gentle
man, that what he termed niceties were in sass what he saw, as
leading immediately to the deftruftion cf this country. The
honourable gentleman might possess a fine understanding, but
whatever his ideas might be, he would tell him, that they were
all nothing, uniefs they went into the minutiae of things. It
was the minutiae of every thing that constituted its worth and
excellence,
He had been charged by the honourable gentleman, with hav
ing betrayed a thirst after power, but in what manner had that
appeared ? He bad determined to resign, not because he could
not grasp as much power as he wiffied, but because he could not
any longer aft with his colleagues. That this was the case, and
not that he had any improper ambition ; he would appeal to the
right honourable gentleman himfelf; for he was sure he would
do him Me justice to recollectand to admit, that the question
about the independency of America, was agitated in the cabinet
before the death of the marquis of Rockingham, and that he
had actually signified his intend. ns of resigning before that very
Unfortunate event took place. He again appealed to the right
honourable gentleman, that he had intimated his resolution to
resign, before the death of the marquis of Rockingham
was known, and even on the very day when there was great rea
son to hope he would live. Hetherefore could not be fufpefted
of refining from any disappointed viewsof being firft lord of the
treasury. He Considered himfelf as possessing the confidence of
the people, and if he had continued in administration, he Mould
have most Mamefully abused it, for the people of England would
have thought every thimg was going right, whereas he knew no
thing was doing but what tended to the deftru&ion of the coun
try. The people had sent him into the minify as their watch
man, and he had thought it his duty to let them know the dan
ger they were in.
countenance of his late friend with great sincerity. But their
resignation on this occasion he could not help confuting as ini
mical to the prosperity of those measures in which this country
is at present so fatally and deeply engaged. The honourable
gentleman over the way, he said, was incapable of misunder
standing or mi freprefenting what fell from him, yet certainly he
had stated fairly and diftindly the great and leading objects for
the accompliffiment of which the administration under the late
marquis of Rockingham was formed. And these objeds, he af
firmed, were dill the avowed and invariable objects of the pre
sent. He might be mistaken, or milled, or deceived, as the best
and wisest of men often were; but he was sure his intentions
were honourable, as they had always been undisguised. His
head or his judgment might err, as he was sensible of its weak
ness in a thousand instances; but he would boldly, publicly, rind
on all occasions, answer for his heart- He might not have ek
preffed himfelf lo clearly, accurately, or guardedly, perhaps, but
he was not cunfeiom of qualifying, much less of altering any of
his well known sentiments on these topics. That independence
to the thirteen states of North-America was to be the basis of all
our negotiations with them. That they were to be treated as in
dependent in the very mode of carrying on these negotiations.
That a large and substantial reform in every branch of the pub
blic expenditure, and that the undue influence of the crown in
this house was to be circumfcribedd--wcre certainly the ground
work for public principles, on which the new arrangement as
well as the preceding one was avowedly eftabliffied.---It was on
this conviction, and this alone, he pledged himfelf to give it all
the supp it and assistance he could. The moment theleaft Symp
toms of departing from these struck him, he would undoubtedly
follow his honourable friend's example. He would net think
his honour or his conscience fafe in deviating from this broad
and beaten ground of politics in the least. He Was obliged to the
honourable gentleman for his kind and very flattering opinion ;
but he did not think himfelf altogether liable to the censure im
plied in the compliment, so handsomely paid him. He was for
public measures, not men. While the former were pure, were
ftaraped with the public advantage, it was indifferent to him who
nad the power. He had no objeft but one. He trusted his acti
ons were guided solely and always by the public good. And
whoever accorded with him in facilitating this great end, was
entitled, in his opinion, by eve r y possible tie to his countenance.
For ihe merits of the late firft lord of the treasury, he had the
most serious efteerri. His personal and social qualities and ac^
compliihments were as valuable and exemplary, as they were
uniform and rare. Rut why degrade the living by an ill timed
compliment to the dead. The earl of Shelburne was not the lefts
refpedabie that his predecessor was a man of uncommon worth.
No. There was an instance of merit in lord Shelburne that it
^as but justice to mention to the house. His lordffiip, so far
from renewing the old exploded politics, had been able to con
vince his royal matter, that a declaration of American indepen
dence was, from the situation of the country and the necessity of
the case, the wisest and most expedient measure that government,
from the pressure of present circumstances, could possibly adopt.
This he observed was a fitiffi&ory reason to his mind, that no
thing less than such a measure in it its utmost latitude, was cer
tainty meant by the cabinet. And while he had this confidence iff
the integrity and candour of ministers'; forty as he was to differ
from his honourable friend, the duty he ovred to his country, to
his king, and to his constituents, made ft impoMble for him to
do otherwise.
Mr. Fox said, a few things had just fallen from the right ho
nourable gentleman, which he could not pass unnoticed. To
the political creed which had been read before the house with
so much solemnity, he was no pacy,' It was a paper he had ne
ver till then either seen or heard. .The fuVjeft of it was certain^
ly not unknown to him though the terms in general were. This
was a system digested by himfelf, and now held out to the public
as adopted by his majesty's counsel. It was now a week since
he had the honour to be one of the number. A general conver
sion may have b'een lately wrought on them. They were not, he
averted, agreed on any such system, while he knew them. To
bring them unanimously to some such fpecifie and decisive point,
he had laboured ardently and affiduou fly with them, both indivi
dually and collectively considered, but all to no purpose. It was
therefore some fatisfaftion to him at least, that hit absence had
brought that about which his presence could not. This alone
was fufficient to juftify his resignation to all the world. Whac
was an honest nten to do, who found himfelf situated as he was ?
He had avowed principles in this place to his friends, to his con
stituents, to the nation at large, with which he deemed their
existence, as a great and a refpeaable state, inseparable. Was
it ever conceived or expected, that he could continue in a re
ponfible department of state, and be answerable in his place in
this house, for those that were foreign to his heart, and in hir
opinion hoflile to the best interests of the empire ? He trusted the
public, and all who knew his habits of thinking and anting,had
a better opinion both of his underftariding ana his heart.—lt
was in fa& a con ucf to which he was not equal. His honour
able friend was indifferent who were the men, while the mea
sures were unquestionably good. What was-this but entrusting
every thing at random, and depending on events to juftify a ma
nifeft treachery to the cause we have espoused. The honourable
gentleman, ire said, was welcome in this, as in every other case,
to judge for himfelf, but he Mould not judge for him. He
would not relinquish his own judgment, especially in matters
which he had so often and carefully revolved in his own mind,
to any. in whom he had not the fulleft and most unbounded con
fidence. This was not in his power, as things were at present
ciccumflaoced. The person prefixing at the treasury board was
not of a ^iription to command that faith, which in such a pre
dicament was wanted, was indispensable. This breach is on a
public, not on a personal or narrow ground. His mind might
fee things on'a less broad and comprehensive scale than the ho
nourable gentleman, but he was answerable only for his own
feelings and cunvidions. These might incline him to be less
credulous, and fill him with more jealousies than his honoura
ble friend was hable to entertain. But he did not pretend either
to censure or defend the constitution of his mind. It was enough
for him that his conscience did not upbraid him with anting difi
honourably, or disingenuously. But he would fay this must have
been the case, had he not d^ne what he did. He was impelled
to take this step by every confederation that could operate on the
heart and feelings of an honest man. The honourable gentle
man might, but he could not regard, without emotion or con
cern, who took the lead in his majesty's councils. He deemed
it a great and national objed, and conftquently of infinite mo
ment to every individual, but much more so to a member of par
liament ; and still more so to one of his majesty's cabinet ministers.
Their h^n^r, tfor duty, and every thing dear 10 them was at
stake. What ! had he and his friends laboured so long and af
fiduoufl'y to destroy a system, which it was now meanly, but
abortively, attempted to make them acceffary in reviving? And'
must not they fee the trick that is meant to be played on them
without blame? Were they censurable for detecting an artifice
with which the strength and glory of Great Britain was most
immediately connetted ? Why are not the honorable gentleman
and his worthy coadjutors tatisfied of their own integrity, in
keeping their places, without blaming those who rehrquiflf
them ? Is not their eagerness for an ecclairci foment a certain
indication that all is not right with them, even in their own
opinion? He and his friends had nothing to dread from the ft-