The Pennsylvania packet, or, The general advertiser — Lancaster, Pa.;Philadelphia, Pa., 1782-03-16 00:00:00, page 2

-t^-^ injurious to the inter-tt' of Great Britain, if the
motifs paffed/md had turned and twilled the powers
of his oratory into a variety of dupes, in order to ren
der fuchan idea as defp cable, and as little worthy of
notice as poffroK In (pde, however, of the contempt
which the arguments he should rely on, might be treat
ed with, in co requeue of t..e honourable g-nt em in's
fucceftful impression on the minds of the house, he
should venture seriously to infill on it, that if the pre
sent motions were carried, they would clearly convince
the enemy, in what m inner they might best point their
operations again* this country during the eatuing
campaign. Let gentlemen View this argument in a ge
neral point of view, abflra&ed from any particular and
fubordinue confid ration, ani let them aik their own
underpin tings whether acceding in the present cir
cumQances of our affairs to a motion io ohyioufly pre
judicial to re country, wodd not be in the highest
de ree absurd, impolitic, inexpedient, and unjuilifi
able ? His lordfhi, enlarged on this politico pretty con
siderably, and with so much force of reasoning, that#
no man in the house seemed to do otherwise than admit
the fulled couviaion of the truth of the argument. He
next fail, that bh should objeft undoubtedly to the
motion ; but in giving a negative tothem,ne feft him
(elf bound in some degree, and especially after what
passed lately on another occasion, to (peak more out up
on the design of the future modeof the profecutmn of the
war, than he was generally accuflomrd to do, or in
deed than it was either wife or politic for a man in a
high and r-fpouHble office, to do at any time, unless
the urgent neceffiy of the case rendered it impossible
for him to make any other election of condud; it was
from this cohfideration that he informed the house,
that from the misfortunes and calamities of the war
(both of which he would then and at all times maintain,
were misfortunes and calam{ti*s, which, though of a
very serious and fatal nature, were matters rather to be
deplored and lamented, as the inevitable events of war,
ever in then Selves uncertain, than to be Bribed to a
ny criminality in ministers j yet the misfortunes an!
calamities of the war rendered it heceffafy for govern
ment to determine that the mode of carrying on the
war internally upon the continent of America, as had
been the practice under lord Cornwallis and other ge
nerals, should no 1 nger be followed, but to change
the form of the war altogether. This declaration, his
lordfllip said, had given him some inconvenience, nor
would he have made it, even then, had not the esti
mates of the army, already upon the table, declared
as much, in the mod clear and express manner, to e
very gentleman, who would have given himfelf the
trouble to examine them with any degree of a tentive
phuial. By those estimates gentlemen would find,
' that the army which toe secretary at war, meant to
?.fk for, was the fame as that asked for laflyear, with
some little variation for the Raft-Indies ; whereas had
it been the intendn of government, or had his ma
jefiy's.mimfGrs thought it adyifeable, expedient or
wife, cwcumftanced as the country now was, to
profecu^ the war continentally, according to the
mode of carrying it on hitherto, they mull have ap.
plied for a much larger army, as without a very con
siderable increase of military force, such an idea would
have been absurd in the highest extreme, and obvious
ly impracticable.
Having made this declaration, his lqrdfhip took no
tice of what Mr. Powys had foil refpe&ing the war
being the war of mioifters, and a war adhered tdob-
Rinately by them, as the foie means by which they
held their situations, and whence alone they derived
all their emoluments, as well as all their power. Those
fort of remarks, he observed, had been made again
and agrin, and they had been as often answered and
refuted. For the present he should only fay, that the
war never had been a favourite of his; on the con
trary, he had always considered it as a war of the most
cruel necessity, but as a war founded on a truly Bri
tish basis; a war inflituted in Support of the just
rights of toe crown and of the parliament of Great-
Britain. In that point of view, and thatonly, ought
the war to be regarded, and in that point of view he
repeated what he had often before (aid, that the war
was, in its origin, just and necessary, however calami
tous to the country its events had unfortunately prov
ed. But it was said, the war was a source of fatisfac
tion and emolument to him ; the fa& was directly the
reverse. Ifthe war was particularly a heavier misfor
t^ne to any one man in the country than to another,
it had been so to him ; he had ever considered it as
the greater! and most grievous calamity of his life, and
if at any time, a facrifice, not only of the emoluments
of his filiation, but even of the whole of his private
fortune, would have bought his country a fafe and
honourable peace, he would have made that facrifice
with the utmost chearfulaefs, and thought the oppor
tunity of doing so, the greataft blessing that could have
befallen him. Gentlemen talked largely and loosely
upon this fubjed, but let any one reasonable person
confider, what his feelings mull have been, when from
year to year, as the war went on, he found himfelf
obliged to go on, adding frefli and heavier burthens
on the people, than those they had borne the year be
fore ? Ifthere was any fixation particularly painful,
he trusted the house would do him the justice to lup
pofe, that his had been truly so.
After arguing these matters very pointedly, his lord
ship went into an examination of the motion, were it
carried, either with regard to peace or war. In the
firft place he observed, that the wording of it wva< so
general and lopfe, that he trusted the house would, on
that account, never agree to it. The words of the Se
cond motion were, to resolve against " all future ef
forts to Subdue the American provinces to their obedi
ence by force." All efforts, said his lordship! Is the
government of the country then to have its hands tied
up by sea andland ? If the motion paffes,and an Arne
,ican privateer should be met with on the high seas, no
English captain, either of a man of war or letter of
marine, dare attempt to take her. Was this what
gentlemen meant? He trufied it was not. His lordship
thrwed, that if the present motion were acceded to, it
in effcA was tantamount to a motion for immediately
withdrawing all the troops, or in other words, for a
bawdoning the American war altogether. He asked,
were gentlemen prepared to go that length? Were
they ready 'o Sty, N^v York and its dependencies
ought nor' to be kept, either as a post whence we might
annoy the common enemy, and offer assistance to our
Weft India illands, or with a consideration of having
f nothing in our hands to make pesce with ? Or might
not Rhode-Bland be taken as a post in theenfuing sum
mer, it found more convenient, more tenable, and more
ireful? Again, were gentlemens minds made up as to
CharleftowH and Halifax? All these were in his opi
nion important confiJerations, and required a very furi
ous difeuffion, but which would be wholly (hut out from
future confederation if the present motion was agreed
to. His lordship very forcib'y painted the disadvant
ages in making a peace, which this country would lie
under, supposing that t : e morion were carried; and
then as forcibly argued the difad vantages which it
would draw on us, in our further prosecution of the
war. He paid fom hamfome compliments to the coun
try gentlemen, who had fuppor'ed government all
through the war. in reply to pa tof Mr. Powys's
Mr. James Grenville followed Mr. Townsend, and
was extremely eloquent in support of the motion. He
quoted a speech of his relation the earl of Chatham, in
the house of lords, Some little time before his death., and
asked, were that noble lord alive now, what would he
think of ministers, who had precipitated their country
into its present calamitous condition, with as much
violence as if a perpetual hurricane had ravaged the
empire from.the commencement of the war?
1 Lord Maitland was also extremely warm on the fame
fide.
Lord George Germaine, after replying fully to Mr.
Burke, relative to the difeontents which he had stated
to prevail at present between the governors of the is
lands of J imaica, Bermudas, and Barbadoes, and the
ref peflive assemblies of those islands, came to a confede
ration of the question then before the house, to which,
he said, he cer ainly should objeft, because it went to
the full length of resolving to abandon the American
war wholly, which he conceived to be a project equal
Colonel Barre made a much abler fpeecb than we
ever heard from him.'The colonel went back into the ffate
of the navy, and made out that we had but 82 Ships of
the line fit for use. He also touched on the army efti
mate#, which called up the
Secretary at war, who defended the estimates from
the epithets bestowed on them by colonel Barre, and
very forcibly argued the absurdity of the house agree
ing to the present motion.
Mr. Fox, in a flaming and most ingenious speech,
fopported the motion, and pressed the house not to de
pend on the part of a speech of a minifier, but to pin
the noble lord down to a refoliation.
against the noble lord in the blue ribbon, had he not
so explicitly declared the intention of government to
alter the mode of the 'war entirely. The lord advocate
openly avowed to the house, that his sentiments refperi
ing the war had been very different formerly, bgt de
clared, that fatal experience had convinced him of its
impracticability, unless the mode of condu&ing it was
wholly changed.
Mr. Burke made a ve-y long speech in support of
the motion, and answered the arguments of the lord
Advocate.
speech. His lordship observed, that gentleman had done
them juflice, but.no more than justice, by allowing
them to be honest, independent, and incorrupt; they
certainly were so ; and, had it not been for that honest
and incorrupt support, administration could not have
flood their ground so long. The support of the inde
pendent and difinterefled was the terra firma of miniflry,
all through the war ; had those gentlemen thought the
intentions of administration bad, or the war unneces
sary, they would have voted differently, and then the
basis of their footing being removed, the whole of the
fuperftruaure of administration would have tumbled :
thus that change which gentlemen on the other fide so
mvch wished, and had so often called for, would have
1/ en effected.
His lordship said many other firong and pertinent
things, and at length concluded by moving the order
of the day upon the motions of fir James Lowther.
Sir Fletcher Norton answered lord North, and de
nied the truth of his doßrine refpeßing the true im
port of t e motion. Sir Fletcher said, it was a new
species of logic, to assert, that voting a negative recei
ved an affirmative. The motion did not fay th t the
whole of the American war should be abandoned, it
merely said, the object of the war, viz. the attempt
ing to subdue the Americans to obedience by force,
should no longer be performed in.
Mr. Wellbore Ellis replied,/nd maintained lord
North's argument, bet pushed it much further, de
claring that it was hbfolmely n^ceffary to pursue the
war in some measure, and that keeping a war at a dif
fance had ever been the policy of all countries. Mr.
Ellis said, he certainly Should vote against the motion.
Mr. John Townsend, in a warm add animate! piece
of declamation, called upon the house to deny tru fling
further fuppljes to men who had grofily betrayed
their trust.
General Burgoyne compared New-York to Gibral
tar, confidently .the former al l a mere post, and declar
ed, that it world be next to madness to hold it as a
pofl, vole ^ for the purpose of an offensive war. Posts,
he insisted on it, in an enemy's country, were wholly
Bfelefs in a defensive war, nnlefs they were Situated at
the head @f a great river, or strait of the sea, which
they could command, as Gibraltar did the mouth
of the Mediterranean ; he declared farther, that if mi
niflers formerly had negle&ed Gibraltar, as much as
the present administration had dared to do, the heads
of the whele cabinet would have paid for it. Be asked,
if minivers wanted to make Gibraltar a neff-eg^ for
more array extraordinaries, and for the lavish expen
diture of more millions ? He acknowledged, that when
he went to A merica, he was inclined from principle to
approve of the war; but dear-bought experience made
him wiser. He concluded with faying, lie should vote
for the motion.
Mr. Campbell, fir Edward Deering and Mr. Wil*
liam Dolben, (poke against the motion. The two lat
ter delivered the honest sentiments of plain country
gentlemen, in the language of common sense and con
viftion.
The lord Advocate declared he mould have voted
ly weak, impracticable and dangermr. His lordfh.jp
agreed fully with the noble lord in th' blue ribb >^,
that in the present Situation of the war, it was advis
able to change the mode, and to carry it on very diffe
rently from the manner in which it had hitherto been
conduced, and which had turned out so unfortunately.
In this opinion all the king's servants were united,
and they were not without hopes of meeting wi;h bet
ter success than they had hitherto experienced. As to
giving up New-York and its dependencies, that was a
matter she fhould,not readily content to,becaufe he con
sidered it highly necessary, as well for the assistance
of the mode of prosecuting the war aga ; nft the com
mon enemy in future, as for the purpose of hrving a
place of rendezvous and station for , fleet nearer the
Weft Indies than Great Britain. New-Vork, with its
dependencies, were, in his opinion, by no meins inva
luable possessions. Gentlemen had compared New-
York to Gibraltar, and said, that the garrison of New-
York, like the garrison of Gibraltar, mus fbe wholly
furnished with provisions from Great Britain, Gentle
men forgot that the comparison was destitute of Simili
tude ; they forgot that Long-Efland and Staten-Efland
were among the dependencies of New-York ; that
the former was an hundred miles long, uncommonly
fertile, and productive of a variety of different arti
cles of provision. This therefore Shewed, that the ar
f^ment, that all our army in garrison at New-York
must be fed entirely from home, was ill-founded. There
were likewise in New-York stores, &c. in great quan
tities, which it would be difficult to remove, and works
which had cost this country imm'rrfe sums of money.
With regard to Charleftowo and other polls, now pos
sessed by us on the American continent, this was not
the time that matter was to be decided upon. What
he had said, was enough to Shew, that it would be high
ly imprudent to accede to the present motion. An ho
nourable gentleman [Mr. Fox] had Bated a declarati
on made by him on the fubjeft of the American war
some time since; so far was he from having changed
his opinion on the fubje&, that he would then repeat
what he had formerly said, and apply it to the moti
on at that time under consideration. As he had al
ready declared, he regarded the motion as amounting
to a resolution to abandon the American war altoge
ther, he made no scruple to avow, that if the house
came into it, he would immediately retire ; for, be
the consequence what it might, he never would be the
minister to Sign any instrument that gave independence
to America. His opinion ever bad been, and his opinion
then was, that the moment the house acknowledged the
independence of America the British empire was ruined.
This nation never could exist as a great and powerful pen
ple, unless our sovereign was likewise the sovereign of
America. This was a position he maintained from the
cleared conviction, and he had rather abide the censure
of that houfe,than be the instrument of injuring the con
flitution of this country. By his hands the constitution
Should never fall; and when the house Should refelve
on the independence of America, he would inflantly
withdraw; because he was determined from principle
to leave the people the r country — [Mr. Byng said
haffify across the house, " you'll leave us no country.]
Lord George complained of the interruption, and said,
" if the honourable gentleman thinks himfelf warrant
ed so to do, let him impeach me! I am not confeious
of having ever intentionally, in any one instance,
done wrong since I have held my Situation, but I
wish most heartily, that if a change of ministers is
aimed at, and thought necessary, it may be done in the
true constitutional way. .Don't call the people together
without doors, and tell them that ministers ought to be
changed, but let this house, with the dignity becoming,
its character and its true impcr ance, adopt at once
the conftiturional measure. Let them address the
throne upon it, and every gentleman present knows
the purpose cannot fail of being answered ; let ministers
be dismissed, be impeached, be punished, if they Shall
be found to merit it; but do not out of mere party
spirit injure the constitution, and rifque the ruin of
the country.''
Mr. Byng made a Short reply.
I ord George rose to explain.
Mr. T. Pitt fpok.e warmly against the motion.
Sir John Wrottefley said, be Should vote against the
motion in consequence of what had fallen from the no*
ble lord in the blue'ribbon. Sir John advised the house
to come to no reflation on the fobject till lord Corn
wallis was at home to represent the real Rate of the
country, and to give them authentic information as to
the practicability of the war. Sir John complained of
the want of firmnefs in ministers, charging them with
having neither rewarded merit, nor puniffied delin
quency, during the whole seven years of the war. He
also assured the house, that they had repeatedly been
grofily deceived, as to the reputed number of the
Americans who were the friends of government.
Sir Jo.n Hufey D^laval affigued his reasons for agree,
ing with the noble lord in giving a negative to the mo
tion.
Mr. Dunning made a very witty and humourous
speech, of half an hour's continuance. Mr. Dupning
argued, as may be fappofed; in favour of the motion ;
he concluded his speech with earnefliy calling on
lord North to rife again, and explain his words more
fully, as different gentlemen had declared, they had un
derwood him differently.,
Mr. Turner spoke also in favour of the motion, and
said, he had always wifhej the Americans success, and
was particularly pleated, when he heard of lord Corn
wallis' defeat and capture, as he hoped that would put
an end to our further persecuting our fellow fubjefls.
He said the Americans ought to be treated as men
treated their pointers.. Who ever heard of breaking a
pointer by force? Every body knew the ®fy way was
to coax the animal, and entice him to,do his duty. Mr.
Turner occasioned several hearty laughs.
At two the house divided, when the dumber were for
the order of the day being read, firfl motion
Ayes (for the order, of the day) 220
Noes —— !%,
Majority 41
The business of the army estimates .was riser, by
agreement, adjourned to Friday next [tumor^w] afftt
the house rose immediately ,