The Pennsylvania packet, or, The general advertiser — Lancaster, Pa.;Philadelphia, Pa., 1783-03-18 00:00:00, page 1

The earl of Shelburne f.if, that there was a very
dhort answer to the question of the noble e rl ; that in
all the proceedings cf parliament, in all tines, even
in those of peace, when there was much less occasion
for caution and concealment, than at the present mo
ment, there never was a prec dent o f any Inch quefli
on being put, and answered by a minifl r. There was
no man less ready to fly to the forms and orders of
that house for r fuge against queflions than himfelf;
but nothing could be more unwifr, and more unfafe
as well as more unparliamentary, than to enter into
the drfcullion proposed by the noble earl, and give a
ny answer to his question, either one way or the o
ther. He was bound, by his office, to keepthe secrets
of the king—he was bound, by hi, duty to his king
and country, to keep them inviolably, and he would
do so with his life. The secrets of the king, in the pre
sent circumdances of the empire, were of a nature so
important, tha surely he would have the voice of the
house with him, when he said, that to bring them at
all into difcuffon, w mid be highly unjuflifiable. The
secrets of the king's prerogative were, of all others,
the moßfacred, and the most particu'arly to be guard
ed The cooflitution had vetted certain powers in tire
crown for the wifefl purposes: and not only the spirit
of the conftitu'ion, but a direct aft of parliament, had
veiled in the king the foie power of negociating with
the powers at war for peace; and in this prerogative
we experienced the advantage of the mixture of mo
narchy which there was in our government. Could
then their lordships think, or believe, that, honour
ed and trusted as he was with the king's counsel, that
he would come down there, and answer the queflions
put to him by every individual lord that might, from
curiosity, or any other motive, put to him queflions
of a dangerous tendency ? It would be endless if this
practice were to be fuffered to take place. He was, as
a man ought to be in a moment like the present, who
Further Advices from Europe,
By the Washington Packet.
HOUSE of LOR DS, (London) December 13.
EARL FITZWILLIAM gave rife to a conversation
which engaged some part of their lordships time,
on the fubjeft of the difference which was evident in
the language of miniflers in the one house and the ei
ther, on the meaning of the provisional treaty with
Americans. Tne noble earl fiid it was impossible for
any of their lordships not to have taken notice of the
extreme difference that there was in the explanati
on which his majesty's miniflers had given of the
king's speech here, and in another place, ft was im
possible to walk the streets without being told of the
inconflfiency of miniflers. It was the fubjed of all
the news-papers, and the topic of general conversati
on. He begged leave to fay that it excited in his
mind apprehensions of a very uneasy kind, and he
had risen to put a queflion to the noble earl in the
blue ribband, who would have the goodness, he trust
ed, to give nim an explicit and clear answer. On the
firft day of the session it had certainly flruck his ears,
and Rruck also other noble lords, that the explanati
on given by the earl of Shelburne, if the prov fional
agreement concluded with the Americans was, that
it was revocable, that it had reference on'y to the pre
sent negociation with France, and that it would not
be binding oh this country, if that negociation was
by any accident to break off. This was the sense in
which the noble earl's words had struck his
mind. In another place, however, others of his ma
jelly's cabinet Council/o s had given an explanation
of a very different tendency, declaring, that the agree
ment was an absolute, unconditional recognition of
the independence of America, not depending on the
present negociation win France, but a treaty which
was t >take etfeft whenever peace should be concluded
with France, be it when it may. It was impoffib'e
for their lordships to rest contented under exphnati
ons so incoofirtent and emtbadiaory ; it was fit that
they fh)uld know clearly and dißindiy the situation
in which we stool, and therefore he hoped the noble
earl would have no ob^ion to answering his quefti
©n> He had written it down, in order to be more
dirtied in the matter, and it was as follows : " Whe
ther the provincial articles contained a recognition
of toe independence of America, a bfolute and without
Condition, and that tie quifton of the independence
of America was never more to become a subj & of
dilcuffion, treaty or bargain, either now or hereafter,
but was to take effect whenever a peace should be con
cluded with France? or, whether the recognition of
the independence of Amer ca was conditional, and
depended on t^e negociation now carrying on with
France, and was to be revoked if that negociation
should break off. "
^WOI^^B^
VOL. XII.I
TUESDAY,
general advertiser.
Published EVERY TUESDAY, THURSDAY AND SATURDAY.-Price Sixpence.
took upon himfelf the office which he now filled, de
termined and fleady in his mind; and he declared
that he would not only resist the queflion of the noble
earl, but, if the house itfelf should in a regular man
ner call upon him, he would keep the king's secret,
nor should they constrain him to disclose it. A time
would speedily come when the noble earl wou d have
a right to call for the agreement which was concluded
with the Americans ; and his majesty's ministers held
themselves refponable to their country for the articles
which it contained. The nobleearl, he trufled, would
speedily have the opportunity of judging for himfelf
on the, merits of that agreement ; but in the mean time
he beg'd the house to rememberthat the thing was done,
that the treaty was signed and sealed ; and that, whe
ther it was good or bad, tie production of it on that
table could not vary the measure, in order to make it
what the noble lords might with it to be. He begged
them at the fame time to remember, that that agree
ment with the Americans had been made in consequence
of an aft of the last session, empowering his majefly to
conclude the differences betweep ths coutry and Ame
rica, so anxious had Parliament been that there fliould
be no obfeurity in the matter. The n-gociation now
going 00 with France and the other powers at war,
was a matter justly near the hearts of the king's mi
nisters, as well as those of all men; they would cer
tainly bend all their endeavours to the speedy con.
clufiin of an honourable peace; and they would not
throw such an embarraffinent in the way, as the un
seasonable produOion of the treaty alluded to by the
noble earl.
Earl Fitzwilliam said, that nothing was more df
tant from his imagination than the desire of embar
rassing ministers in the treaty now carrying on for
a general peace. His intention was to remove em
barraffment, by the removal of ambiguity To clear
up a point, wnich in his mind would be a slur on
the national character, and would fubjeft us to the
imputation of infinerity and unfairne $ ; an impu
tation which mull impede every traty, and give dis
trust to every power with whom we might have to
aft, either now or hereafter. There was a palpable
ambiguity in the canduA of ministers, upon this oc
cafi in, which it became them to clear up. The no
ble earl talked with hs usual eloquence of the obli
gation he was under to keep the secrets of bis royal
mart r. God forbid, that he should breath a w>ih,
that he should diiclofe the secrets of government He
called fr no secrets. He desired only, that the no
ble earl would clear up a palpable ambiguity. He
dil not desire him to go a letter furt er than hisma
jelly's speech went. Where was the fec r tt which
was not already dif r lofed? The king's speech told
him all that he wished to learn, and an official letter,
set by Mr. Thomas Townfhend, one of his majes
ty's principal secretaries of slate, to the lord mayor
of London, and the directors of all the great compa
nies, declared that a treaty was concluded wi h the
united dates of America. If then they were the uni
ted flat a of America, we were to confider them as de
clared by his mijeft 's ministers independent Bates
If they were not independent, they would not, as
he conceived, be called the united dates of America,
since t ey would be only British colonies. So far did
the letter of Mr. secretary Towfhend go ; and the
speech of the king delivered from tiie throne (poke
t e fame language. It flares that his majesty had,
in compliance with the sense of parliament, made them
an offer of independence; and that provisional arti
cles were signed, to be infert^d in the treaty t at
should be made lor peace with France ; —and it goes
on with these words, “ In this reparation.&c." If
then we were separated, the question which had been
so long the fubjeft of flruggle and contention was over,
and America was, toali intentsand purposes decir
ed to be independent of the crown and legislature of
Great-Britain. With these declarations be, tor 0. e,
was fatisfied, and thought them fuffic ently plain and
fpecific : but one of his majesty's cabinet councebors,
and one who certainly had as much, if not more pow
er in his hand than any other, had said that the pro
visional art cles did not extend so far, that they were
conditional, and depended on the present negotiation
for peace with France. It was this which he withed
to have explained; and particularly, because others
of h?s mijefty's cabinet counfellors in another place
had declared, that the treaty was irrevocable and un
conditional. He < efired therefore that the noble earl
should go no further than his colleagues had gone ;
and that he should only give a diftinA answer to his
question, ay or no, without entering, by any means,
into the particulars of the treaty which he might
think it dangerous to discover.
The duke of Richmond said, that he entirely agreed
with the earl of Shelburne on the impropriety of en
tering into difeuffions oh a topic so important, as the
OR, THE
THE
provisional argreement with America undoubtedly was,
in the present flage of the negociacions with tne bellige
rent powers ; he thought that the noble earl was right
not to answer the questions put to him in such away at
such a moment. His name he underflood had been intro
duced in another place, on account of some words that
had fallen from him in a private company. He wish
ed that gentlemen, when they ventured to repeat what
fell from him in private companies, that they would
repeat it in places where be could answer for himfelf.
It was by no means his intention to slate the p r^cu
lars of that conversion ; but he thought it n ceffary
to fay, that whit he said on that occasion, h d beea
" r y. mu ch misrepresented He had given no such
opinion as was ascribed to him. He tad (aid, that it
was impossible in an, treaty that provision could be
made lor all contingencies, and that we cculd
absolutely trust to the efficacy of treaties in any giv
en occasion. The noble duke mentioned several cafee
that might occur, and against whch it was mpoffible
for any human government to provide. In particular,
his grace said, it was an article in all treaties ofpeace,
that there should be perpetual amity and peace be
tween the contrasting powers. This was always in
farted, but ^as there any human means of enforcing
tins most fdutary provision? He mentioned this to
frw how perftflly idle, and it mufl be for their
lordships, cr any men ab urd, to argue on this treaty
now, when the provisions of it were not known. It
was impoffble that it should be laid on the tab'e in the
present circumflances of the ngociation ; for though
he was an enemy to all unnecessary concealment, he
would never agree to the produAion ol a paper so es
sential and important as this w< uld be fcund to be.
With refpe& to himfelf, he should only fay, that no
man in this country, be he whom he may, cculd be
more hoflile te the idea of renewing tie American
dispute in any possible fbape than himfelf; and he
could assure the house, that not only the noble earl
in the blue ribband, but every one of tis majefly's
miniflers, profeffed the fame dfpofition, and avowedly
afled on the fame principle.
The earl of Derby said, that he was a ? onifhed to
hear his maj-fiy's ministers talk of the secrecy of a
measure which had not oly been pub ifh r d from the
throne, and by ti>eir colleagues in another house, but
also in official letters. All that was now desired or
c. Bed for, was, that his majefly's ministers in that
house fhoull be as candid, open, and explicit as they
were in the other, and should give a plain answer to
a very plain queflion, “ Are the Americans declared
to be independent or not ?'' The noble duke had cen
furec ian ronourable gentleman for having mentioned
a converiation that happened in a private company.
In jufiification of that gentleman he must fay, that
from all tl at he had heard of the c rcumftancr, he cer
tainly considered the co nverfation as put lie and open,
and that the words of the noble duke were not delivered
in confidence. The noble lord thought it essential to
their lordships honour and security, that the queflion,
which bis noble friend had put with so much candour
and fairnefs, should be answered, and that miniflers
should not screen themselves behind the forms of par
liament from questions in which the welfare of the Rate
was concerned.
The duke of Chandos thought the earl of Shelburne
clearly in the right, in refufing an answer to the questi
on which had been put by the noble earl; and he as
sured the noble earl in the blu~ ribband, that while
he continued to aft on the principles held out in the
speech from t e throne, he should have his very warm
support.
The earl of Shelburne thanked the noble duke for
his very obliging approbation, and fiid he expected
to have support from no fife of the house, or king
dco, longer than he continued 10 aft on the princi
ples which had ben held cut. In regard to the ques
tion which the two noble earls continued to press up
on him, his answer was the fame now as before. He
neither could nor weald enter into any explanation of
a matter which could not be explained without dan
ger to the ountry. In regard to w.^t he said on the
orR day, he was in the memory of every noble lord,
that his language on that day was clearly this, that
it w s impossible to argue on a paper which could not
be produced nor explained. This was his language
then, and it was his language now: he could not,
th ref re, avoid faying, that the queflion of the no
ble lords was captious, and that they must seek for
grounds of op,option to hit measures more fubflanti,
al tian that which they had now taken. He assured
them, that this topic of accusation would not bear
them through. He saw with what earneflnefs they
fought for errors, and they must be very hard pressed
indeed for eccafions of complaint, when they d< fired
to interfere with the king's prerogative. The great
advantage of monarch), as he had said, in our con^
march 18, 178 ft
[NUMB. ioi6.