2024

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―5回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―5 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2024 年 4 月 8 日（月）12:20-13:12 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****
ワカ：じゃあ、お願いします。

ミチコ：夫の父が脳卒中で倒れ、しゅうとめから藤沢に送られてきた。義父は結婚前からの女性と生活していたので、母は介護したくないと、私の夫の長男宅に父を連れてきた。長男が見るのは当たり前って感覚。父は身体障害者 1 級の認定を受けた。毎日おむつ、食事、清拭、きちんとやった。うんちぶつけられたり、利くほうの足で蹴飛ばされたり。でも抵抗しなかった。お父さん大変だと思うからしょうがない。でも、市民プールで泳ぎながら泣いた。
同じ頃、自分の両親も不仲。

ワカ：不仲？

ミチコ：仲が悪い。

ワカ：仲が悪い。

ミチコ：これ続くのかな。これしか書いてないね、おじいちゃんのこと。

ワカ：あとは自由にしゃべってくれるといいかしら。

ミチコ：自分の両親も仲が悪くて、長男は小学校で問題を起こし、担任教師からご自宅まで

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1

呼び出しされた。夫は出張、職場泊まりでほとんどしゅうとの状態を知らない。誰にも愚痴はこぼさなかった。だって、愚痴をこぼさないのが私の誇りだったのね。しゅうとが逝って、市民対象の、こっち飛んじゃうな、話。いいのかな。しゅうとが逝って、亡くなって、市民対象の芝居のオーディションを受けて、舞台の隅っこに立つ。文章教室も通って。

ワカ：何教室に通った？

ミチコ：文章教室。

ワカ：文章教室。

ミチコ：あら、名前が出てこないわね。私の父と母は仲が悪くて、家裁まで持っていったんだけれども。

ワカ：家庭裁判所ってこと？

ミチコ：家庭裁判所に父が訴えて、そこで解決ができなくて、結局、別居。

ワカ：何を訴えたの？ おじいちゃん。

ミチコ：浮気してるとかなんか言ったのかな。

ワカ：おばあちゃんが浮気してるっていうふうに、おじいちゃんが家庭裁判所に訴えたんだ。

ミチコ：そう。それで、私が家庭裁判所に、調停委員が女性と男性がいて、それであれは小田原だったかしらね。おじさんいなかったと思う、あのとき。横浜。

ワカ：横浜。

ミチコ：横浜に行ったんだ。横浜に行って、そこの調停室入るなり、調停委員 2 人が私の顔見てあぜんとして。鬼のような娘さんがいらっしゃると思いましたって。だから父がどれだ
け私のことを悪く言った。

ワカ：そっか。

ミチコ：どうして父がそういうふうに言うかっていうと、どっちの肩も持てないの、私にし2

たら。どっちも悪くないし、どっちも悪いからでも。でも、それはあの 2 人に通用しなくて。それはそれで終わって、もし、もっと不満あるんであれば、また来てくださいって父に言ってたけどね、裁判所の人は。

ワカ：訴えたけど、別に何にも沙汰はなしっていうこと？

ミチコ：うん。だって調停だから、まだ。

ワカ：調停か、まだ。

ミチコ：調停がつかなければ、裁判になるんでしょ。

ワカ：裁判になるね。調停段階だったんだね。

ミチコ：そこまでいかなくて。だから娘の悪口をいっぱい言っても、なんだって感じで、調停委員は。だってどっちも大事だもんね、娘としては。それで仲悪かったの。おじいちゃんが家出して、アパート変えたの言ったわよね。

ワカ：うん。あの長後の家を家出して、藤沢のアパート借りたの。

ミチコ：そう。そしたら全部。

ワカ：大家さんにお金、抜かれてた。

ミチコ：通帳も全部、預けられて、全部、自由にされちゃったの。それで変だってことを私に助けを求めて。

ワカ：戻ってきたの、長後にね。

ミチコ：そう。でも父と母はやっぱり仲が悪くて、敷地内で、アパートの一室に父がいて、母屋に母がいて。そんな生活してたわね。文章教室か。母はがんで逝って、4 年後、父も自宅で逝って、長男は落ち着いて、長女はおとなしかった。なぜかうつ病になってしまった、私が。2 年間、通院して。長女は一人親になったの。

ワカ：だいぶ、いつ頃かって言える？ もう少し。うつ病になったのって、だって。うつ病になったのって何歳のとき？ 大体でいいけど。

3ミチコ：阪神があった頃だわね。

ワカ：阪神の。

ミチコ：淡路震災。

ワカ：淡路震災が起きた頃。

ミチコ：あの頃ね。そうだね。2 年間、通院してたね。長女は女児誕生。長女は就職、私が孫を見る。いつの間にか、うつは治ってしまった。すごいな、孫の力だな。横浜の学校の送り迎えも、校長先生の呼び出しも私。誕生会の集いも私。生徒さんたちに、ばばと言われていた。横浜の学校に通うの大変なので、引っ越したのね。

ワカ：長後から湘南台に引っ越した。

ミチコ：だよね。3 月 11 日の話は、もう、したのね。

ワカ：した。

ミチコ：トモオさんがおかしくなったの。夫が 65 歳で定年退職で、この辺が新聞投稿のことあったでしょ、オーケストラの。トモオさんには山場だったね、人生の。

ワカ：お父さんの人生のハイライトだった。

ミチコ：この辺がうまくまとまらない。私の新聞投稿を読んだ読者が 50 人のオーケストラ
で記念演奏してくれた。

ワカ：新聞の内容軽く話せる？

ミチコ：(友雄の退職記念演奏会のパンフレットを出す。美智子の投稿記事２本がそこに印刷されている)

ワカ：というか、簡単にしゃべってくれるといいんだけど。
『朝日新聞』のひとときの欄に載った。読んだのはどっち？

読んで反響があったのはどっちの記事？

れる？

4

それ紹介してくミチコ：読んで？

ワカ：内容を。読まなくてもいいけど、何が書いてあるか。

ミチコ：97 年に、3 月に『朝日新聞』に投稿したのね。私は駆け落ち結婚して、お金も何もなかった。夫は 24 で私は 22 歳。勉強嫌いの私は先生なんて嫌いって言った気まぐれな一言で、夫は職を捨ててしまって。明治生まれの父親の逆鱗に触れ、勘当された。間もなく私は妊娠して、そしたら夫が外から日本を見てくるからって屈託のない笑顔を残し、アメリカに行っちゃった。私は産後の肥立ちが悪くて、酸素マスクを付けて点滴してたのに。
1 カ月後に帰国した夫は、結婚 10 周年たったら世界旅行しようねって言ってたのね。でも結婚記念日、長男も長女もおねしょして、敷布団に世界地図書いてた。夫は新大陸発見だってにこにこしてた。全然、10 年後の約束は忘れてる。これから 10 年後は、夫も定年退職するんで、老後の生活設計を相談したら、退職金を全部つぎ込んでオーケストラを呼んで、夫婦 2 人だけのディナーをするって。では、私たちの生活はどうするの、生活費は？って言ったら、夫は幼子のようにぽかーんとしてた。その顔と白髪頭がマッチしなかったのね。まるで夢見る夢太郎みたいに、おかしかった。笑っちゃったっていう投稿をしたのね、97 年の 3 月 7 日に。
そしたら、これを読んだ読者が、たまたまこれを読んだ男性が、連絡してきたのね。そこから夫とその読者の交流が始まって、10 年間ずっと、彼の演奏会に通ったのよね。

ワカ：なんの楽器する人だったんだっけ。コントラバス？ チェロ？

ミチコ：コントラバスはでっかいもんね。

ワカ：でっかい。

ミチコ：チェロぐらいよね。

ワカ：チェロ。

ミチコ：10 年間、夫と交流があって、本当に彼が率いる劇団で。

ワカ：劇団。

ミチコ：劇団じゃないね、オーケストラ。50 人のオーケストラで、本当にやってくれたの

5

よ、演奏会を。だって、この夢見る夢太郎に感激して、赤いバラの花束、抱えて、職場に来たんですもん。

ワカ：その読者の方。

ミチコ：うん。だから夫も、必ず彼の定期演奏会には出たわね、埼玉まで。

ワカ：定期演奏会、聞きに行ってたってこと？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：新座のオーケストラだった。

ミチコ：そう。10 年間だから 10 回中、欠席 1 回だけ。

ワカ：ずっとお父さんがその。

ミチコ：行った。

ワカ：定期演奏会に通ってた。

ミチコ：どんな用事があってもキャンセルして。夫はヴィヴァルディの四季を頼んで。

ワカ：ヴィヴァルディの。

ミチコ：私は演歌が大好きなんだけど、ちょっと気取って言わなかった。

ワカ：何もリクエストしなかったの？

ミチコ：本当は炭坑節が好きなんだけど、そういう雰囲気ではなかった。

ワカ：炭坑節をリクエストするっていう雰囲気ではなかったから、何も言わなかった。

ミチコ：出た出たーって。よくまとまんないね。この演奏が終わってから、夫はビオラを習い始めるのね。70 歳で職場、延長勤務を終えたのね。だけど、こっから夫が突然怒りだしたとか。食卓で夫が突然怒ったり、不機嫌になったり、無表情になったり。長女と孫で 4 人

6家族になってたのね。長男は結婚して家を出ていて。じいじと話すと怒るし、否定ばかりして話したくないって 2 人は言うのね。夫の表情のない、不機嫌な毎日だったのね。認知症？
って。もしかして、そう思って。
私、物忘れがひどいので、病院の検査、一緒に行ってくれる？って付き添ってもらうの。
ついでに夫も診察を受けるのね。市民病院でアルツハイマーと診断された。おかしいなと感じてから 2 年経過していたのね。なんだ、病気か。納得って家族も安心して、少し落ち込んだ夫も、明るく、ビオラ教室に行くようになったのね。10 年以上続いたビオラも弾けなくなってきた。譜面が分かんなくなってきて。

ワカ：最近。これは。

ミチコ：もう 2 年になる、1 年かな。

ワカ：1 年前ぐらいか。

ミチコ：体力もなくなってきたし。先生の配慮で、今ピアノを教わって、幼児の曲を弾いてるの。赤丸もらったり、花丸もらったり。今は、デイサービスに週 3 回通って、ピアノは月に 2 回習ってるのね。デイサービスに週 3 回、ピアノは月 2 回か。夜中に入浴しようとした
りするのね。

ワカ：お父さんがね。

ミチコ：あって言って裸で戻ってきて、あ、間違えた。お風呂なかったって戻ってくるの。
探し物は、ものすごいするのね。これは、もう一緒に探しちゃう。流し忘れのトイレも、な
んだ、流せばいいんだって、流しちゃう。結構、面白いんだよ。面白いこと。

ワカ：面白いことがある。

ミチコ：もっとあるのよ。脳が疲れてもう分からんってビオラ片手にぼうぜんしていたのね。

ワカ：お父さんがね。

ミチコ：6 月に 26 度あるのに、腰にウールの毛布を巻いて寒い寒いって。それからテレビ
で相撲観戦中に、立ち会って立ち会っての行司に、椅子から立ち上がる。あれ、何するんだ
っけって言ったりとか。面白いよ。

7ワカ：お相撲見ながら自分が立ち上がっちゃった。

ミチコ：何するのかなとか。面白いっていう。

ワカ：確かに。面白いと言えば。

ミチコ：私のこと、話、前後して、コロナ前から老人ホーム 6 カ所でボランティアをしていたのね、私。同年齢の入所者さんが多かったので、主に傾聴、聞くのね。声をそろえて童謡とか唱歌とか歌謡曲を歌ったのね。男性が軍歌を声高らかに歌うのは、どうしても歌えなかったな。戦争の痛さを傾聴で身に染みてたのね。戦争を知っている人がいっぱいいたので。

ワカ：結構、戦争の話するんだ。

ミチコ：そう。90 とか 80 代だと、私まだ 60 代だったから。あと 2015 年から 2017 年まで
妹の面倒見たのね。

ワカ：アコちゃんの面倒見た。

ミチコ：老人ホームで 2 年弱過ごしたの、妹ね。私はほぼ毎日通った。

ワカ：アコちゃんは脳梗塞だったんだっけ。

ミチコ：そうなの。亡くなったのは舌がんだったけどね。その頃、札幌の兄が入院して、遠くで世話は無理だったのね。妹は 2017 年、兄は 2018 年に逝っちゃったの。

ワカ：おじちゃんのほうが後だったんだね、そういえば。

ミチコ：ちょっと後。ボランティアしてたのは、私にとっては結構よかったの、市のね。それは、アマネが生まれる前からやってたよね。いや、駄目だ、この辺は。

ワカ：何がきっかけだったの。

ミチコ：夫の親も自分の親も、仲が悪かった。どうしてかな。じゃあ、そういうお年寄りがいっぱい、自分と同年代の人がいっぱいいるとこに行ったら、少し理解できるかなって浅い考えで行っちゃったの。

8ワカ：自分と同年代？

ミチコ：同年代っていうか、ちょっと上だね。

ワカ：ちょっと上のね。

ミチコ：平均年齢 80 歳ってとこが多かったの。

ワカ：親よりは若くて、自分よりは年上の人たちが入所してるところに行った。

ミチコ：だから、全部で 6 カ所行って。

ワカ：そうなんだ。不仲なのは何でだったんだろうみたいな。

ミチコ：やっぱり戦争が影響してたりとか。

ワカ：戦争かなって思ったね。実際そんな感じした？ 話聞いたら。

ミチコ：うん。戦争で引き裂かれたり。

ワカ：本当は好きな人がいたけど、引き裂かれたみたいな話？

ミチコ：あった。それとか、ずっと一人でいるっていう女性。

ワカ：旦那さんが亡くなってとか。ここから

ミチコ：あと戦前はすごくいい暮らしで、おひなさまを出して、『うれしいひなまつり』という童謡を歌いながら、一つずつおひなさまを作っていく。ひな壇に置いていくという人もいて、それはやっぱり老人ホームのおひなさまの前で、明かりをつけましょ、ぼんぼりをって歌いながら、おひなさまを見たりとか。結構、時代。
あと、重い認知症の人が、なかなか自分の意思が伝わらないと大暴れしたり、裸で走った
りとか。ああ、そうか。でも、学ぶっていうのよく分からないけど、人生経験としてはよかった。自分の親 4 人見てるよりは、6 カ所の老人ホームのほうが、私にはためになった。
公民館でボランティア要請の講演があって、同じテーブルの人は一家 4 人で来てて。まだ30 代ぐらいで、出席の動機を聞いたら、要するに奥さんの親が同居してるから、もしそう9なったときに、学ぶことがあると思って来ましたって。そっか、その心構えなかったなと反省したり。

ワカ：でも、なかなかないよね。素晴らしいというか、その人たち。

ミチコ：そのときに、主催者がコントをしますって。認知症の役と、それからお嫁さんの役
で、どなたかいませんかって言ったら、私がなんでかしら、はいって手を挙げちゃった。

ワカ：はいって手を挙げちゃった。

ミチコ：お嫁さんの役をしたのね。あんた取ったんでしょってしゅうとめが言うと、そうか、取ったのかなって。台本ないから。

ワカ：台本ないからアドリブでやった。

ミチコ：そう。取ったのかな。探しましょうって言って、いろんなとこ探して。

ワカ：お財布とか。

ミチコ：お財布。そしたら、そこに戸棚かなんかのとこにいずらになって、あって言ってしゅうとめさんが見つけるっていう芝居で、面白かった。そしたら主催者が、なんかお芝居のやったことあるんじゃないですかって言われて。セリフの全くない芝居はやったことある
けど、それは言わなかった。いいえって言って。そのときは楽しかったな。それからいろん
なとこにボランティアに行くようになった。

ワカ：認知症の劇。短い劇しに行き。じゃなくて。

ミチコ：認知症の劇。

ワカ：それはもっとあってごめん。その 6 カ所のボランティアね。コントした後にその 6 カ所。

ミチコ：いろんなとこに登録して。

ワカ：いろんなとこに登録して、ボランティアに行くようになった。

10ミチコ：自分の夫が認知症になるなんて、想像もしてなかった。

ワカ：その段階では思ってなかったでしょ。

ミチコ：全然。

ワカ：全然。

ミチコ：ひとごと。

ワカ：それはそうだよね。だからおじいちゃんたちが亡くなった後でしょ。

ミチコ：そう。自分の介護が全然、役に立ってないって、よく分かった。だってお父さん、
義理のしゅうとが寝てたって、お父さんが私にうんこぶつけたり蹴っ飛ばしたりするの当たり前で、いらいらするもんね。自分は動けないんだから。

ワカ：て思うようになったんだ。その後に。

ミチコ：だから、私がプールに、ほんのちょっと 1 時間も空けないんだけど、そうすると父が、しゅうとが、あなたが留守のときは地震来たり、火事が来たら私は死ぬんですねって言うから、そうですねって言って出掛けた。だって私だって死ぬ思いで介護してんのに、この野郎と思って。

ワカ：そのときに。

ミチコ：だけど、ボランティアしてから、違う。相手は動けないんだから。

ワカ：なるほど。

ミチコ：だから夫が認知症になったのは、これはすごい役に立ってると思う。

ワカ：そのボランティアの経験。

ミチコ：でも、怒ってばっかりだけど。きょうは怒らないって決めてるけど、すぐ怒ってる。
ボランティアは面白かったね。楽しかったね。

11ワカ：具体的にはどこに行ったの。例えば。

ミチコ：認知症の人が入る人のとこあるでしょ。グループホーム。

ワカ：グループホーム。

ミチコ：グループホームが、本当に職員さんが多くて、入所者さんが少ないっていうか、家庭的。普通の一軒家で生活営んでるのね。ゆったりしてた。どうしてゆったりしてるのかなと思ったら、やっぱり職員の数と入所者の数が。

ワカ：職員さんがやっぱり多い。

ミチコ：多いと思う。だからお茶飲んじゃって、そこに新聞紙で突っ込むとか、いろんなことしても誰もそれをとがめない。

ワカ：その入所者さんが、お茶飲みながらそこに新聞突っ込んじゃったりしても。

ミチコ：その人に意味があるから。

ワカ：その人にとっての意味があるから。その行為に。

ミチコ：そこで、ああ、そうだ。お父さんがあんなことしてたのは、そっか、理由があったんだって。お父さんが死んでから、ボランティアして気付いたことがいっぱいあった。愛がなかったもんね。何よりもね。

ワカ：愛を持つのは難しい状況だったんじゃ。

ミチコ：結婚もほら。

ワカ：反対したからね。

ミチコ：反対されて、駆け落ち結婚して、こんなときだけ送り込まれて、この野郎と思ってたから、いつも。だから完璧にこなしたのは、やっぱり敵討ちだわね。敵討ちって言わないか。仕返しか。

ワカ：仕返し。結婚に反対された仕返し。

12

ミチコ：いろんな仕返しあるからね。だから引っ張られたりなんかはしないけども。だって、おむつ取ったって、肛門が緩んでるから、滝のように軟便がだーっと落ちてくるのよ。今も本当、目に焼き付いてるけど。そんなの優しくできなかったな。反省してないけど、やっぱり反省してるわね。だから今、夫がトイレで便を流さなくても、夜中に失禁したと大騒ぎしても、何てことない。あんなん取り換えればいいじゃないって言えるこの余裕は、ボランテ
ィアしてたのと、しゅうとを見た経験。

ワカ：しゅうとを見たから。

ミチコ：あとは、普通の有料老人ホームに行ってたね、何カ所か。よかったね。

ワカ：みんな藤沢市の。

ミチコ：藤沢市。妹が茅ヶ崎の。

ワカ：あ、そうだった。茅ヶ崎の。

ミチコ：茅ヶ崎の老人ホームにいたので、富士山の見える部屋で個室で。そこでもボランティアした。喜ばれることがすごくうれしい。あんなに喜んでくれるんだ。お話聞いてるだけ
であんなに喜んでくれる。でも私も戦争の話、知らないから、その頃の人たちの話を聞いてると、ものすごい新鮮で。

ワカ：戦争の話、多かった感じするね。

ミチコ：多い。本当に多かった、あの頃。もう辞めてからも、だいぶなるもんね、ボランテ
ィア。コロナが来てから、ボランティア辞めたのよね。だからボランティアを 6 年ぐらいやったのかな。なんでも役に立つんだからね、人生ね。これって、なんかある？ いっぱいあるんだけど。

ワカ：いっぱいある。どこからを。思いついたところから。まだ時間あるから、15 分ぐら
い。もっと詳しくしゃべりたいとことかあったら。

ミチコ：今、楽しみにしてることは、市で主催してる歌謡者の会に参加する日が、一番楽しみ。同じではないんだけども、似たような環境で、夫の面倒見たり、妻の面倒見たりしてる人が集まるんだけれど、そこで吐き出す話って、笑ったり怒ったり、みんなで。すっきりし13

て帰る、全員が。

ワカ：月 1 回だっけ。

ミチコ：2 カ月。

ワカ：2 カ月に 1 回。

ミチコ：2 カ月に 1 回。2 カ月おきよね。

ワカ：2 カ月おき。1 時間ぐらい？

ミチコ：90 分。

ワカ：90 分。

ミチコ：だから、認知症って病気だって分かってても、腹が立つ。だから私もそうだ。ボラ
ンティア行ってたときは、本当に、そうですねってにこにこして、うんうんって肯定も否定も何もしない。でも肯定はしてる。そんな感じだったのよ。夫になったら、うえって言っちゃうから。いけない、これ病気だって思う。そしたら、他の出席者も同じ経験してる。

ワカ：相手が病気だと思っても。

ミチコ：病気になってるんだけどって言いながら、腹が立つって。でも、私の夫は「悪いね。
負担かけてるね」って言うのね。それを言わせる私が、ちょっと落ち込んじゃうな。ごめんって感じ。あれしないで、これしないでなんて無理なのに、つい、あれしないでって。私の顔の前でおならしないでとか言っちゃう。

ワカ：それは言っちゃうかも。

ミチコ：ものをよく知ってて。

ワカ：お父さんが？

ミチコ：私の基準で。生き字引みたいなんで。オーケストラの話をしたら、ずーっとする。
誰誰は何年、何年。後でこっそりスマホで調べると、合ってる。

14

ワカ：合ってる。それは何。演奏家とかの話をするの。

ミチコ：そう。地球科学とか、電磁波でどうのこうのっていう話とか。また調べると合ってる。だから、すごい、ものをよく知ってる。

ワカ：知識、残ってるね。

ミチコ：いや、うんちくが多くて。

ワカ：うんちく。昔からうんちくの人だったけど、さらに磨きがかかって、うんちくの人になった。

ミチコ：だから、認知症が何にも分からないんじゃなくて、ごく普通の、普通って何か分かんないけど、会話は成り立つのよね。成り立たないと、相手は、うん？ あれ？ 変なこと言ったっけって言ってるから、言ったって言う。

ワカ：言うんだ。

ミチコ：そう。なんかで私が怒っちゃったりすると、彼は冷静に、僕は脳の病気だからって言うの。

ワカ：冷静に言うの。

ミチコ：ごめんって言うの。そうねって言うの。

ワカ：ごめんはお父さんが言うの？

ミチコ：私が言うの。

ワカ：お母さんが言うの。

ミチコ：あんまり認知症って、この単語あんまり使わないようにしてる、でも。よく、ものは知ってる。

ワカ：お父さんね。

15

ミチコ：だって、国家試験が好きで、もう 20 も 30 も資格持ってるよね。

ワカ：いろんな資格持ってるんでしょ。

ミチコ：好きなんだよ。

ワカ：よく知らないけど。

ミチコ：みんな書き換えしてないから、50 取ったって、60 取ったって。

ワカ：失効してるんだ。

ミチコ：そう。でも、本人はしっかり持ってる。

ワカ：持ってる。一番最初に取ったときの賞状みたいなの。あ、免許ね。

ミチコ：人柄はいいね。

ワカ：お父さんね。

ミチコ：よく分かった。それはボランティア行って、いろんな人と接したりしてるから。

ワカ：お母さんがね。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：いろいろ、いろんな人見てみると、総合すると、お父さんの人柄はいいと思うわけね。

ミチコ：雑に扱って、もったいないことしちゃった。

ワカ：雑に扱ったの？

ミチコ：だって、えばってたもん。だから、難しいあのアオヤマの親見たんだから。でも、人の面倒ばっかり見てるし、自分の面倒、誰見んだろうって、時々この頃思っちゃうな。両親の面倒でしょ。夫と自分の両親の面倒。それから、自分の妹の面倒。兄の面倒。

16

ワカ：私の子。

ミチコ：あ、そうだ。孫はかわいいから。気取ってるから分かんない。ボランティアの話が、プライバシーを侵しちゃうしね、余計なこと言うと。

ワカ：書き方は、筆加減はこっちでするから、誰が誰とか分かんないと思うけど。

ミチコ：だから、今、嫌なことは全然ないんだけれども、でも、周りから大変ねって言われるの、とっても嫌。

ワカ：夫の面倒を見てるのが大変そうって言われる。

ミチコ：のが嫌。

ワカ：嫌なんだ。

ミチコ：だって、私はそういうこと、そういう態度してんのかなとか。いなければ楽でしょって言われて、嫌。私、そういうこと、人に言ってきたんだと思う。今、反省してる。

ワカ：なるほど。自分が人に言ってたかもしれない。

ミチコ：大変ねって軽々しく言ってたんだと思う。それから、デイケアに行ってる間に、おしゃべりしましょうとかって、いろんな人から誘われるけれど、本当にいろんな人から。だけど、いないときはもうひっくり返って、演歌聞いて、雑誌読んでるのがいいな。

ワカ：1 人でいるのがいい。逆に。

ミチコ：だって。

ワカ：一緒だから。

ミチコ：結局、付きっ切りだもの。だって、私が本読んでても、お料理してても、歯を磨いてても、待ったなしだから。ミーちゃん、服どうやって着るのって言って、セーターを首のほうに腕突っ込んだり。服着れないから、自分で。だけど、はいはいって言って、着せたりとか。ぬれちゃったとか。だから、結局まとまった時間は取れないよね、彼がいると。

17

ワカ：だから、デイケアの日に、おしゃべりどころじゃないんだ、お母さんは。

ミチコ：そう。うちでひっくり返って。

ワカ：家にいるほうがいいんだね。

ミチコ：テレビ見たり、新聞、雑誌、読んだり。ぼうっとしてるのがいい。でも、介護の会
はうれしい。すごい楽しみなの。

ワカ：そこで、ちょっと吐いて、いろんなことを。

ミチコ：うちもっていう感じで。そうよねっていう感じが。若年性の認知症を見てる夫とか。

ワカ：奥さんが若年性の認知症で。

ミチコ：そう。だから、今、2 人で基準にしてるのは、うちに帰ってこれなくなったら、そこで考えましょってことになってる。

ワカ：お父さん。

ミチコ：夫と。でも、帰ってくる、ちゃんと。

ワカ：帰ってくる。今のところ。

ミチコ：あんまり進んでないね。いつもお茶わん洗ってくれるんだけれど、糸尻まで洗うのを教えるのね。分かったって言って、次にやったら、やっぱり表だけきゅっきゅって洗って。

ワカ：お父さん、お茶わんの洗い方。

ミチコ：そう。でも、洗い直しはしない。お茶わん洗ってくれるかなと思って買い物に行くと、ずーっと出しっぱなしで、台所。こんにゃろうと思うけど。

ワカ：洗ってない。

ミチコ：いや、病気って思って。それとかご飯のとき、じーっと座って待ってる。自分のお18箸とか出してって言ったら、はーいって言いながら、じーっとご飯待ってる。

ワカ：はいって言いながら、お箸出さない。

ミチコ：でも、頼む。できるだけ振り込みも。

ワカ：振り込み難しそう。

ミチコ：ううん。ちゃんと。

ワカ：カードがあるの？

ミチコ：ううん。コンビニの人がちゃんと手伝ってくれる。

ワカ：今そういうふうに対応してくれるんだ。

ミチコ：そういう教育になってる。

ワカ：なるほどね。逆に、1 人暮らしの人が結構、高齢者の方、多いから。なるほど。

ミチコ：だからよく教育されてるよね、コンビニの人らなんか。

ワカ：でも、コンビニの人優しいもんね。

ミチコ：そう。でも、あれマニュアル見たらすごいもん。

ワカ：すごい丁寧に対応するようになってる。

ミチコ：書いてるあるの。アマネのファミリーマートみたく、本当にそう。だから。

ワカ：高齢者の方が来たら、こういうふうに。

ミチコ：ていうか、怒ったら怒り返さないとか。すっごい面白い。

ワカ：本当。怒ったら怒り返さないようにとか書いてあるんだ。

19

ミチコ：ひたすらすいませんとか。あと、暴力になったら警察ね。

ワカ：そうだよね。暴力は警察呼ばなきゃいけないよね。何、マニュアル取ってあるの？

ミチコ：面白い。

ワカ：アマネがコンビニエンスストアでアルバイトしてたときのマニュアル。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：すごい。面白いから取ってあるんだ。ウエルカムブックって、バイト用の。

ミチコ：こんなことよくやってたわ、あの子。

ワカ：すごい。お客さまの期待を超えよう。なるほど。こういうマニュアルがあるんだ。

ミチコ：目線から何から。

ワカ：目線から何から。確かに。怒っちゃいけないとかあるね。大変失礼な五つの事例。

ミチコ：否定しちゃ駄目。

ワカ：なるほど。

ミチコ：だから、コンビニの振り込みは行ってもらうの。

ワカ：お年寄りやお子さまは、対応をちゃんと気を付けましょうって書いてある。優しくしましょう。

ミチコ：だから、そういうのはやってもらう。本人も行く、張り切って。だから、できるだけ。

ワカ：そうだね。人にも接するしね、外で。じゃあ、まだ結構いろいろできるんだ、お父さん。

ミチコ：できないことはない。ことはある。あと、今『オッペンハイマー』、あの、ほら。

20

ワカ：映画？

ミチコ：『オッペンハイマー』ね。
『オッペンハイマー』、映画行きたいけど、長く座っていれないし、彼もね。

ワカ：でも見たそうだね、お父さんだったら。

ミチコ：『オッペンハイマー』見たいわねって言ったら、ずっとこの 1 週間、『オッペンハイマー』、何時からだ？って。テレビで放送されると。

ワカ：テレビだと勘違いしている。映画館に行くんじゃなくて。

ミチコ：『オッペンハイマー』は、今、上映中だから、行かなきゃ見られないのよって言うでしょ。そうすると、あ、そっかって言って、何年か後だねって言いながら、また何時間もたたないと。

ワカ：何年後かにテレビでやるねっていう意味？

ミチコ：うん。やるわねって言ったら、生きてるかどうか分かんないけど一応、言うと、また何分もしないうちに、何時間後でも、『オッペンハイマー』は何時からだ？って言う。

ワカ：それ、お父さんには、『オッペンハイマー』っていう言葉大きいから、見たいんだろうね。

ミチコ：科学だからね。でも、絶対でしょ、彼の感じることでしょ。

ワカ：見に行ったらいいんじゃない？ 映画館に。でも、座ってられない？ 2 時間以上だ
よね、あれ、きっと。長そう。

ミチコ：『オッペンハイマー』の。

ワカ：私も見に行ってない、まだ。

ミチコ：解説を読んだりするんだけど、そうすると、また、1 日に 10 回は言うかな。
『オッ
ペンハイマー』は何時からだ？って。そうなの。今『オッペンハイマー』だわね、彼の頭は。

21

ワカ：
『オッペンハイマー』なんだ。
『オッペンハイマー』連れてってあげたいよね。ちょっと『オッペンハイマー』見に行かないかって。いつまでやってんだろう。まだやってる？

ミチコ：歩けない。

ワカ：そうか。出掛けられないんだよね、そこまで。

ミチコ：やっと。

ワカ：じゃあ、ネットで見れるようになったら、アマネにコンピューター持ってきてもらって、見せてあげたらいいんじゃない？ ていうか、そこのスクリーンで、うちのディスプレ
ーで見れる。コンピューターつなげて。

ミチコ：今『オッペンハイマー』。あ、来たぞ、『オッペンハイマー』と思う。新聞記事に載ってる『オッペンハイマー』の全部、読んであげるんだけど、でも彼のほうが新聞の記事の10 倍は知ってる、知識あるから。原子爆弾のね。だから、それ聞いてたら、私が今度、『オッペンハイマー』、眠くなる。

ワカ：あんまり詳しくしゃべるから。何分くらいかな。あと 3 分くらいあります。

ミチコ：あと、デイケアから帰ってきたら、そのやりとりがすごく楽しいの、彼は。絵の好
きな人がずっと絵を描いてたりとか、そしたら、余計なことを言うのね。サインしたほうがいいって言ってきたんだって。

ワカ：絵、描いてるのに、その人が絵にサインしてなかったから、サインしなさいって言っちゃったの？

ミチコ：こんないい絵ね、やっぱり残したほうがいいって、後世に残すのにって余計なこと言った。そしたら、本人が俺だけが楽しんでるからいいの。でも、やっぱり、こんないい絵、サインしたらいいって言ってきたって。面白い。

ワカ：そういう会話してるんだ、他の人と。

ミチコ：だから、いろんな、あんまりその元職業のことは、ほとんどの人が話さないけども。

22

ワカ：よかった。

ミチコ：やっぱり、そういう意味ではいいよね。自分が何してた。でも、この前。

ワカ：何してたっていいよね。

ミチコ：検察か警察か分かんないけど、それも悪い段階とか、いろいろ殺人かとか、いろい
ろ聞いて、すごく、面白かったね。

ワカ：元警察官の人？

ミチコ：そう。警察か、検察か。

ワカ：警視庁か、警察。

ミチコ：あと、義足の人がいて、そこで、義足屋さんが。

ワカ：義足屋さん。

ミチコ：こっちは無機質のもんだから、人によって違うから、しょっちゅう調整するんだって、そういう人の話、そういう。

ワカ：話が合った。お父さんもエンジニアだからね。ものを作る。

ミチコ：共通項があって、話したときに、あ、あなた話すんだ。全然しゃべんなかったみた
い、今まで。

ワカ：無口な人だったのね。

ミチコ：静かに。

ワカ：父は、ただ座ってた。

ミチコ：こんなにしゃべるんだって言われたって。自分でびっくりしてて。

ワカ：話が合ったんだね。

23

ミチコ：鉱山に入ってた人とか、世界中、回ってた人とか。

ワカ：こうこう？

ミチコ：鉱山。

ワカ：鉱山って何。

ミチコ：炭鉱の鉱って書くのかな。

ワカ：鉱山会社の鉱山。ああ。

ミチコ：そういうので、世界中、回った人とか。それはもう、話が弾みに弾んだみたい。

ワカ：鉱山の会社に勤めてた人。炭鉱夫ってわけじゃなくて。

ミチコ：全然そういうんじゃない。

ワカ：そういうんじゃなくて。

ミチコ：私の父だ。

ワカ：こっちで言ったら、職員さんに当たるような。

ミチコ：だから、結構いいみたい。行って 1 年 4 カ月ぐらいかな、通い始めて。

ワカ：じゃあ、なじんだのかな、ある程度。よかったです。大体、時間になりました。じゃあ、きょうはこれでありがとうございました。

ミチコ：あと、面白い。

ワカ：まだ一言ある？

ミチコ：いや。着て行ったセーターがたまたま明るい色で。きれいな色ねって言ったら、ずっとそれを着てるの。

24

ワカ：毎回、その色で行きたいの？ 何色なの？

ミチコ：褒める。黄色だったり、エメラルドグリーンだったり。色黒だから、すごく映えるのね。

ワカ：エメラルドグリーンね。それで行きたがる。

ミチコ：あと、褒められると、だから、あなたも褒めてねって、いろんな人、1 日 1 回は。

ワカ：お父さんも、それでサインしたらいいんじゃないかって言ったじゃない。だから、絵に褒めて。

ミチコ：そういう話は、面白い話、いっぱいある。

ワカ：外にちょっと出るといいんだね、デイケアで。

ミチコ：絶対、必要よ。

ワカ：外で社交的なことして帰ってきて、その話をここでするんだ。

ミチコ：ここでしばらくね。

ワカ：はい。じゃあ、ここまででありがとうございました。

ミチコ：うまくまとまるかね。うまくまとまると面白いね。

ワカ：どうなるかはちょっと分からないけど、取りあえずここで録音を切ります。

ミチコ：トモオさんに言ってあるの。おん・・・。

（了）

25

Michiko’s Life- Narrative of the 5th interview2
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Monday, April 8, 2024, 12:20-13:12 Interview with MichikoInterviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Well, please start.
Michiko: My husband's father had a stroke and my mother-in-law sent him to Fujisawa. My father-inlaw was living with a woman from before his marriage and my mother-in-law did not want to care forhim, so she brought my father-in-law to my husband's, his eldest son's home. I feel that it is normal
for the eldest son to watch him. My father-in-law was certified as a level 1 disabled person. He wasdiapered, fed, wiped, and properly cleaned every day. I was hit with his poo, and kicked with his
dominant foot. But I didn't resist. I think it's hard for my father-in-law, so I don't blame him. But I
cried while swimming in the public pool. Around the same time, my parents didn't get along either(hunaka).
Waka: “Hunaka?”
Michiko: They don't get along.
Waka: They don't get along.
Michiko: I wonder if this (*she refers to the memo she has prepared) will continue. This is all I wrote
about your grandfather.
2

Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy. Highlighted

portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author would like to thank Michiko,the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan and Prof. Christian Pasion of Ateneo de Davao
University for their advice in starting this study; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the Shirokane-Takanawa Counseling
Room; Dr. Dan Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr. Reiko Kuroda of the Universityof Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.

26

Waka: Now if you could speak freely, it’s OK.
Michiko: My own parents do not get along either. My oldest son caused problems at elementary schooland his homeroom teacher called me to her home. My husband would be on business trip and stayovernight at work, so he hardly knew the situation with his son. I didn't complain to anyone. I wasproud of myself for not complaining. I wonder if it's okay. After my father-in-law passed away, I
auditioned for a citizens' play and stood in the corner of the stage. I also took a writing class.
Waka: What kind of class did you attend?
Michiko: Writing class.
Waka: Writing Class.
Michiko: Oh, I cannot recall the name. My father and mother didn't get along with each other, and we
had to take it to the family court.
Waka: You mean family court?
Michiko: My father appealed to the family court, and since we couldn't settle the case there, they ended
up living separately.
Waka: What did he appeal to the family court? I mean, grandpa.
Michiko: Did he say something about his wife having an affair?
Waka: Grandpa filed a complaint with the family court, saying that Grandma was cheating on him.
Michiko: Yes. So I went to the family court, and there were female and male mediators, and I thinkthat was in Odawara. I don't think there was an uncle there. Yokohama.
Waka: Yokohama.
Michiko: I went to Yokohama. When I went to Yokohama and entered the mediation room, twomembers of the mediation committee looked at me and were stunned. They said they thought he27

(*Michiko’s father) had a daughter who was like an ogre. So I wondered how many bad things myfather had said about me.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: The reason why my father says it like that is because I can't really put my shoulder on eitherside. Neither is to blame, and both are to blame. But that doesn't work with those two(*Michiko’s
parents). That was the end of it, and the court people told my father that if he had more complaints, hecould come back.
Waka: You mean he filed a lawsuit, but nothing happened?
Michiko: Yeah. Because it's mediation, still.
Waka: Mediation, or not yet.
Michiko: If we don't get mediation, it will go to court, right?
Waka: It's going to trial. You were in the mediation stage.
Michiko: We didn't get that far. So even though my father said a lot of bad things about his daughter,the mediators were like, what the heck. Because both of them are important for me as a daughter.
That's why they didn't get along. I told you that Grandpa ran away from home and rented an apartment.
Waka: Yes. He ran away from our house in Chogo and rented an apartment in Fujisawa.
Michiko: Yes. Then everything was…
Waka: The landlord pulled his money out.
Michiko: The landlord got all his bank books, everything, and she spent his money freely (without his
knowing). Then he asked me for help because he thought something was wrong.
Waka: He came back to Chogo.
Michiko: Yes. But my father and mother didn't get along well, so they lived in our compound, with28

my father in one of the apartments and my mother in the main house. We lived like that. Writing class.
My mother passed away from cancer, and four years later, my father passed away at home, my oldest
son became calm, my oldest daughter was quiet (obedient). I don't know how I got into the depression,
I did, and I went to the hospital for two years. My oldest daughter became a single parent.
Waka: Much more, can you say when? A little bit more details? How old were you when you became
depressed? Just roughly.
Michiko: That was around when Hanshin (Great Hanshin-Awaji Earthquake, Jan 1995) happened.
Waka: Hanshin.
Michiko: The Awaji Earthquake.
Waka: Around the time of the Awaji earthquake.
Michiko: Around that time. Yes, I went to the hospital for two years. My eldest daughter had a baby
girl. My eldest daughter got a job, and I watched my grandchild. Before I knew it, my depression wasgone. That's amazing, the power of grandchildren, isn't it? I was the one who took her to and fromschool in Yokohama, and I was also the one who was called by the principal. I was also the one who
accompanied her to birthday party gatherings. The students called me "Baba" (grandma). It's hard to
go to school in Yokohama (from Chogo), so you moved here (Shonandai).
Waka: We moved from Chogo to Shonandai.
Michiko: Right, I already talked about March 11.
Waka: You did.
Michiko: Something became wrong with Tomoo. My husband retired at 65, and there was thisnewspaper contribution thing around then, the orchestra. It was a climax for Tomoo-san, of his life.
Waka: It was the highlight of my dad's life.
Michiko: I can't quite put it all together here. A reader who read my newspaper contribution gave acommemorative performance with a 50-member orchestra.

29

Waka: Can you tell me a little bit about the newspaper?
Michiko: (A brochure for Tomoo's retirement concert is sent out. Two articles of Michiko's
contribution are printed there)
Waka: I mean, I’d appreciate you could share them briefly. It appeared in the “Hitotoki” section of the
Asahi Shimbun. Which one did the person read?

Which article got his reaction?

Could youintroduce that?
Michiko: Read out loud?
Waka: Content. You don't have to read it out loud, but could you summarize it for me?
Michiko: In 1997, I submitted this article to "Asahi Shinbun" in March. I had eloped and married andhad no money or anything. My husband was 24 and I was 22. I hated studying, and on a whim, I told
him I hated his being a teacher, and he quit his job. He was disowned by his father, who was born in
the Meiji era (*1868-1912). Soon after, I became pregnant, and my husband left for the U.S. with acarefree smile on his face, saying he was going to see Japan from the outside. I was doing poorly after
the birth, and I was on an IV drip with an oxygen mask on.
My husband returned home a month later and told me that we would travel the world after our 10th
wedding anniversary. But on our wedding anniversary, our oldest son and daughter both wet the bed
and drew a map of the world on the mattress. My husband was smiling because he had discovered a
new continent. He totally forgot about the promise of our 10th wedding anniversary trip. I asked him
about his retirement plans, and he said he would spend all his retirement money to invite an orchestra
and have a dinner for just the two of us. I said, "Well, what about our lives, what about our living
expenses? My husband looked at me with the blank stare like an infant. I guess his face didn't match
his gray head. It was funny, like “Yumetaro” dreaming. I posted this episode that had made me smile,on March 7, 1997.
Then a reader, a man who happened to read this, contacted us. That's when my husband and thatreader started interacting with each other, and he (Tomoo) went to all of his concerts (the reader’sconcerts) for the next 10 years.
Waka: What instrument did the person play? Contrabass? Cello?
Michiko: The double bass is huge.

30Waka: It's huge.
Michiko: It's only a cello.
Waka: cello.
Michiko: He had been interacting with my husband for 10 years, and it's really a theater company led
by him.
Waka: A theater company?
Michiko: It's not a theater company, it's an orchestra, a 50-member orchestra, and they really put on aconcert. He was so impressed with Yumetaro (Tomoo) that he came to his office with a bouquet of redroses.
Waka: That reader.
Michiko: Yes. So my husband always attended his subscription concerts, even in Saitama.
Waka: You mean he went to hear the subscription concerts?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: It was an orchestra in Niiza.
Michiko: Yes, 10 years, so only one absence out of 10.
Waka: My father kept going to his concerts.
Michiko: Yes, he did.
Waka: He went to the regular concerts.
Michiko: (To go to the concerts) he would cancel whatever errands he had. My husband requested
Vivaldi's Four Seasons (for his retirement commemorative concert).

31

Waka: Vivaldi's.
Michiko: I love “enka”(*a Japanese music genre considered to resemble traditional Japanese musicstylistically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enka), but I didn't say it because I was pretentious.
Waka: You didn't request anything?
Michiko: I really like “Tanko Bushi” (a Japanese folk song about coal mining), but it wasn't that kindof atmosphere.
Waka: You didn't say anything because you thought it was inappropriate to request Tanko Bushi.
Michiko: “Deta, deta” (part of the lyrics of the song) . Well, my story is not coherent. I don't knowhow you put it all together. After this performance, my husband started learning to play the viola, andat the age of 70, he finished his extended working hours at his workplace. But then he suddenly became
angry. At the dinner table, he suddenly became angry, moody, and expressionless. We had a family offour with our eldest daughter and our grandchild. The oldest son was married and had left home. When
you talk to him, he gets angry, and the two of you say you don't want to talk to him because he's always
in denial. My husband was expressionless and grumpy every day. Dementia? I wondered if he haddementia. Maybe, I thought.
So I told him, “I'm having trouble remembering things, so will you go with me to the hospital for acheckup?” Then I am going to the hospital for a checkup. And my husband is going for a checkup too.
He was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease at a public hospital. It had been two years since I first
noticed something was wrong with him. What a disease, huh? The family was relieved, and myhusband, who had been a little depressed, started to cheer up and started going to viola lessons. But
now, he cannot play it now after 10 years since then because he cannot read the music anymore.
Waka: It’s a recent thing.
Michiko: It's been two years now, maybe a year.
Waka: About a year ago?
Michiko: He is losing his strength. His teacher is teaching him to play the piano, and he is playing
toddler songs. He gets red circles and flower circles. He goes to a day service three times a week and32

takes piano lessons twice a month. Three times a week for day service and twice a month for piano?
He tries to take a bath in the middle of the night, you know.
Waka: He does?
Michiko: He would come back naked and say, "Oh, I made a mistake. It was no bath time." He is
always looking for something. We look for things together. Even when he forgets to flush the toilet, I
tell him that he can just flush it and he does it. It's quite interesting. It's interesting.
Waka: Interesting, you say.
Michiko: There's more. He said, “I cannot understand anymore because my brain is so tired”, standing
with his viola in his hand.
Waka: Did he?
Michiko: It was 26 degrees in June and he kept saying, ”I am cold, cold, cold” with a wool blanket
around his waist. Then, while watching sumo on TV, he would get up from his chair when the gyoji (areferee) would ask the wrestlers to stand up. He would say, "Oh, what are we going to do? It's funny.
Waka: He got up himself while watching sumo.
Michiko: Like, he wondered what he should do? It was funny.
Waka: Indeed. It’s funny.
Michiko: About me, back and forth, before Corona (Covid 19), I volunteered at six nursing homes,
me. Many of the residents were the same age as me, so I mainly listened to them. We sang nursery
rhymes, “shoka”(Monbusho Shoka), and other popular songs in unison. When men sang military songsat the top of their voices, I could not sing together with them. I was soaked in the pain of war bylistening to them. There were so many people who had experienced the war.
Waka: They would talk about the war quite a bit.
Michiko: Yes, in their 90s or 80s, because I was still in my 60s. And I took care of my sister from 2015
to 2017.

33

Waka: You took care of Ako.
Michiko: She spent less than two years in a nursing home, my sister. I went there almost every day.
Waka: I thought Ako had a stroke.
Michiko: That's right. It was tongue cancer that killed her, though. So around that time, my brother in
Sapporo was hospitalized and he was too far away for me to take care of him. My sister passed awayin 2017 and my brother in 2018.
Waka: Uncle’s passing was later, come to think of it.
Michiko: A little later. I was volunteering, which was pretty good for me, for the city. That was done
before Amane was born, right? No, no, no, I’m not sure when it could be……
Waka: What made you volunteer in the first place?
Michiko: My husband's parents and my own parents did not get along. I wondered why. I thought that
if I went to a place where there were many elderly people my age, I would be able to understand thema little better.
Waka: The same age as yourself?
Michiko: We are the same age, or maybe a little older.
Waka: A little bit above.
Michiko: The average age of many of them was 80 years old.
Waka: So, you went to a place where people younger than your parents and older than yourself were
nursed.
Michiko: So, I went to six places in total.
Waka: I see. Like, you were wondering why your parents didn't get along.

34

Michiko: I guess the war had some influence.
Waka: That’s what I am thinking about, too. Did you really feel that way? I mean, when you listened
to those elderly people?
Michiko: Yes. Say, some people were torn apart by war.
Waka: Is it like there was someone you really liked, but the war tore you two apart?
Michiko: There was such a case. Or a woman who says she is alone all the time.
Waka: Like her husband was killed in the war?
Michiko: Also, before the war, people lived a very nice life and would bring out the hina dolls andmake them one by one while singing a children's song called "Happiness Hinamatsuri”. Some people
would leave the dolls on a hina-dan, and others would look at them in front of the hina-dan in a nursing
home while singing "Let's turn on the lights, Bonbori (paper lanterns)”. It shows the times in which
they have lived.
Also, people with severe dementia go on a rampage when they can't quite get their will across, or
run around naked. Oh, I see. But I don't know about learning, but it was a good life experience. Six
nursing homes were more beneficial to me than watching my own four parents.
There was a lecture at the community center on the request for volunteers, and the guy at the sametable was there with his family of four. When I asked him why he attended the lecture, he replied that
his wife's parents were living with them, and he thought he would have something to learn if something
ever happened. I see, and I reflected on the fact that I was not prepared for that.
Waka: But it's not usually the case. I think those people were wonderful.
Michiko: At that time, the organizer said we were going to do a comedy act. The organizer asked if
anyone would like to play the roles of a person with dementia and a her daughter-in-law.
Waka: You raised your hand saying yes.
Michiko: I played the role of the daughter-in-law. When the mother-in-law said, "You took it, didn't
you? There was no script.

35

Waka: You didn't have a script, so you improvised.
Michiko: Yeah. “I guess I took it”. I said, "Let's look for it," and we looked in various places.
Waka: Like a purse.
Michiko: A purse. Then, the purse was found in a cupboard or something, and the actress said, "There
it is," and the actress found it. Then the organizer asked me if I had done a play before. I had done aplay with no lines at all, but I didn't tell him that. I said no. It was fun at the time. After that, I started
volunteering at various places.
Waka: Dementia play. Go do a short play, I see.
Michiko: Dementia play.
Waka: I am sorry it’s more that I had expected. After the comedy play, you came to volunteer at those
six places.
Michiko: I registered with various places.
Waka: You registered with various places and started going to volunteer.
Michiko: I never imagined that my own husband would have dementia.
Waka: You didn't think at that time.
Michiko: Not at all.
Waka: Not at all.
Michiko: Not my business.
Waka: That's true. That's why it was after my grandfathers died, right?
Michiko: Yes. I realized that my nursing care was not at all useful. Even though my father-in-law was36

bed-ridden, it was normal for him to hit me with feces or kick me. He was irritated because he could
not move.
Waka: You started to think that. After that.
Michiko: So, I would go to the pool, and I wouldn't leave for just an hour, but then my father-in-law
would say, "Hhen you are away, if there is an earthquake or a fire, I will die." so I said, "Yes, that's
right," and went out. Because I was dying to take care of him, too, and I felt like a bastard.
Waka: At that time.
Michiko: But after volunteering, it's different. He could not move.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: So my husband has dementia, and I think that experience helps a lot.
Waka: That volunteer experience.
Michiko: But I get angry all the time. I've decided not to get angry today, but I get angry easily.
Volunteer work was fun, wasn't it? It was fun.
Waka: Where exactly did you go. For example.
Michiko: There is a place for people with dementia to go in. Group home.
Waka: Group home.
Michiko: The group home is like a home, with many staff and few residents. They live in a normalhouse. It was very relaxing. I wondered why they were so relaxed.
Waka: There are still many staff members.
Michiko: I think there are many. So they drink tea and then stick newspapers in it, or do all kinds ofthings, but no one ever scolds that person for it.

37

Waka: Even if that resident stick a newspaper in the tea while drinking tea.
Michiko: Because it means something to that person.
Waka: Because it means something to that person. To that act.
Michiko: There, oh, yes. He said, I see, there was a reason why my father-in-law was doing that. Aftermy father in-law died, I volunteered and realized a lot of things. There was no love (when I was taking
care of my father-in-law). More than anything.
Waka: It was a difficult situation for you to have love for him.
Michiko: And our marriage, you see.
Waka: He disagreed with you.
Michiko: He was always against it, so we eloped and got married. He was only sent to us when he got
sick. I thought he was such a bastard. So I did it perfectly. It's still an enemy revenge. Don't you call it
revenge? I got back to him.
Waka: You got back to him for being against your marriage.
Michiko: There are all kinds of revenge. Well, I would not pull him or do something like that. Even
though I took off the diaper, the anus is still loose, and soft stool comes down like a waterfall. I canstill see it in my eyes. I couldn't have been so gentle. I'm not sorry, but I'm still sorry. So now, when
my husband doesn't flush his stool in the toilet or makes a big deal about being incontinent in the
middle of the night, it's nothing. I have this luxury of being able to say, "Just replace that thing,"
because of my volunteer work and the experience of watching my father-iin-law.
Waka: Because you took care of your father-in-law.
Michiko: And then I went to private nursing homes, a couple of places. That was good.
Waka: They are all in Fujisawa City.
Michiko: Fujisawa City. My sister was in Chigasaki.

38

Waka: Oh, that's right. Chigasaki.
Michiko: She was at a nursing home in Chigasaki, in a private room with a view of Mt. I also
volunteered there. I was very happy to make people happy. They are so happy to see me. They were
so happy just because I listened to their stories. But I don't know anything about the war either, so it
was really new to me to hear the stories of people from that time.
Waka: I would imagined that there were a lot of war stories.
Michiko: There were many. There were really many, back then. I've been volunteering for a long time
before I quit because of Covid 19. So I have been volunteering for about 6 years. Everything is useful,
isn't it? Is there anything in this? I have many things to tell.
Waka: You have many things to tell. You can start from where you want to start. We still have time,about 15 minutes. If you want to talk about anything in more detail, please let me know.
Michiko: What I am looking forward to the most is the day when I attend a singers' group organizedby the city. People who are not the same, but who are in a similar environment, taking care of theirhusbands and wives, get together and talk, laugh and get angry. Everyone leaves feeling refreshed.
Waka: Once a month, right?
Michiko: Once every two months.
Waka: once every two months.
Michiko: Every two months.
Waka: Every two months. about an hour?
Michiko: 90 minutes.
Waka: 90 minutes.
Michiko: So, even though I know dementia is a disease, it makes me angry. That's why I'm like that.

39

When I was volunteering, I really just smiled and said, "Yes, that's right," and didn't confirm or deny
anything. But I was affirming. It was like that. But when it came to my husband, I would say, "Oh no.”They I would say to myself, "Oh no, he is sick.” Then I found out that the other attendees had the same
experience.
Waka: Even if you think he is sick.
Michiko: He would say he is sick, but I still get angry. But my husband says, "I'm sorry. I am putting
a burden on you”. I'm the one who makes him say that, and I feel a little depressed. I feel sorry. It's
impossible for me to tell him not to do this or that. Yet, I tell him not to fart in front of my face.
Waka: I might say that.
Michiko: He knows things very well.
Waka: My father?
Michiko: By my standards. He is like a living dictionary. When he talks about the orchestra, he goeson and on. Who is who, what year, what year. I look it up on my phone later, and what he said is right.
Waka: Right. What is it? He talks about performers and stuff.
Michiko: Yes. Like earth science and how it works with electromagnetic waves. When I looked it up
again, it was right. So, he knows a lot of things.
Waka: Knowledge is still with him.
Michiko: Well, he is a man of proud knowledge.
Waka: Proud knowledge. He has always been such a person, but he has become even more polished
as a man of proud knowledge.
Michiko: So, it's not that people with dementia don't understand anything, but they can have a normal,
I don't know what normal is, conversation. If it doesn't work, he would say, "What? What is it?” He
would ask if he has said something strange, and I would say, yes, he did.

40

Waka: You would?
Michiko: Yes. Whenever I got angry, he would calmly tell me that he had a brain disease.
Waka: He would say it calmly.
Michiko: I would say I'm sorry.
Waka: Does my father say sorry?
Michiko: I say.
Waka: Mom says.
Michiko: I try not to use the word "dementia" too much, but... he knows things well.
Waka: My father.
Michiko: Because he likes national exams, and he already has had 20 or 30 certifications.
Waka: He has various certifications.
Michiko: He likes it.
Waka: I don't know much about it.
Michiko: He did not renew them. He got 50 or 60.
Waka: They are expired.
Michiko: Yes. But he keeps them.
Waka: He keeps them. It's like a certificate from the first time he got it. Oh, I mean, licenses.
Michiko: He is a nice person.

41

Waka: My father is.
Michiko: I know it better now, for I volunteer and interact with all kinds of people.
Waka: You do.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: So, when you look at various people, overall, you think that my father has a good personality.
Michiko: I treated him roughly and it was such a waste.
Waka: Did you treat him roughly?
Michiko: I was so arrogant. I took care of Aoyama's parents, who were difficult to deal with. But I
sometimes wonder who is going to take care of me nowadays, since I am always taking care of otherpeople. I took care of my parents, didn’t I? I take care of my husband, and I took care of my parents.
And then I took care of my sister. I took care of my brother.
Waka: my child.
Michiko: Oh, yes. My grandchildren are cute. I don't know. I am pretentious. I'm afraid that talking
about volunteering invades their privacy, if I say anything unnecessary.
Waka: I don't think they can tell who's who because I will protect their privacy.
Michiko: So, I don't have anything I don't like at all, but I really don't like it when people around metell me how hard it is.
Waka: People tell you that taking care of your husband seems like a lot of work.
Michiko: I hate it.
Waka: You don't like it.
Michiko: Because, I wonder if I am acting that way. I don't like it when people say, "It would be easier42

if he weren't here”. I think I have been saying such things to others. I'm reflecting on it now.
Waka: I see. You might have told the same thing to other people.
Michiko: I think I was saying lightly, "That's hard work.” Then, while he stays at the day care, I am
invited by many people to have a chat. But when he is not here, I prefer to take it easy at home andlisten to enka (traditional Japanese ballads) and read magazines.
Waka: You prefer to be alone. On the contrary.
Michiko: Because…
Waka: Because you are usually with him.
Michiko: In the end, I'm always with him. Even if I was reading a book, cooking, or brushing my teeth,
he would not wait for me. He would say, "Mi-chan, how am I going to put on my clothes?" and hewould tuck his arms into the neck hole of his sweater. He can't put on clothes, so I do it for him. I
would say, "Yes, yes," and put them on him. He would say, "I got wet," or something like that. So, inthe end, I couldn't spend much time for myself so long as he is with me.
Waka: So, on a day care day, you're not up for a chat, mom.
Michiko: No. I would take it easy at home.
Waka: You'd rather stay at home.
Michiko: Watching TV, reading newspapers and magazines. It's good to rest. But I'm happy to see themeetings for caregivers. I'm really looking forward to it.
Waka: You can share your stories with them, and it’s stress releasing.
Michiko: We share our experience and feelings, saying, “Ture, we have the same situation”. Say, there
is a husband watching his wife with juvenile dementia.
Waka: His wife has juvenile dementia.

43Michiko: Yes. So now, our criteria is that we will think about it (he would go to a nursing home) when
he can no longer come back home by himself.
Waka: Dad.
Michiko: With my husband. But he can still come back home himself.
Waka: He can still do it, so far.
Michiko: His symptoms haven't progressed much. He always washes tea cups. I teach him to wash thebottom of the cups as well. Then he tells me he understands, and the next time he does it, he washes
only the front part of the cups.
Waka: Dad no longer knows how to wash the tea cup.
Michiko: No. But I don't rewash them. When I go shopping to see if he will wash the tea cups, heleaves them out all the time in the kitchen. I’d blame him, but only in my mind.
Waka: He does not wash them.
Michiko: No, but I’d tell myself that he is sick. When I ask him to prepare his own chopsticks, hewould say “yes,” but he just sits there and waits for his meal.
Waka: He would say yes, but he does not prepare chopsticks.
Michiko: I still ask him to do so, though. And I also ask him to do bank transfers.
Waka: It looks difficult to transfer the money.
Michiko: No. He can do that,
Waka: You have a card?
Michiko: No. The people at the convenience store will help him properly.
Waka: That's how they handle it now.

44Michiko: That's the kind of education they are getting now.
Waka: I see. There are quite a lot of people, elderly people, who live alone. I see.
Michiko: So they are well educated, convenience store workers.
Waka: The people at the convenience store are so kind.
Michiko: Yes. But if you look at that manual, it's amazing.
Waka: They are incredibly polite.
Michiko: It's written there. Like the one of Family Mart where Amane used to work. It’s really so.
Waka: When the elderly come, do like this.
Michiko: I mean, if a customer gets angry, you don't get angry back. It's very interesting.
Waka: True. It says something about not getting angry back if a customer gets angry.
Michiko: They would just apologize. Also, if it turns violent, they will report to the police.
Waka: That's right. They must call the police for violence, right? What, are you saving the manual?
Michiko: Interesting.
Waka: A manual from Amane's part-time job at a convenience store.
Michiko: That’s right.
Waka: Great. I'm keeping it because it's interesting. It's a welcome book, for part-time workers.
Michiko: She used to do this kind of thing all the time, our girl.
Waka: Wow. Let's surpass our customers' expectations. I see. There's a manual like this.

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Michiko: From where to set your eye level to everything.
Waka: From where to set your eye level to everything. Certainly. There are some things you shouldn't
get angry about. Five very rude examples.
Michiko: You will never deny what the customer says.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: So, I ask him to go for convenience store to make payments by transfers.
Waka: It says that the elderly and children should be carefully attended. You should be gentle.
Michiko: So, we'll have convenience workers help him with those things. He's going to go there, too,and he's willing to do that, too. So, as much as possible.
Waka: Yes, that's right. He can also meet people, you know, outside. So he can still do quite a lot, Dad.
Michiko: There is nothing that he cannot do, well, there are things he cannot do. And now"Oppenheimer", you know.
Waka: A movie?
Michiko: "Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer", he wants to go to the movie, but I can't sit there for long, andneither can he.
Waka: I’m sure Dad wants to watch it.
Michiko: I said I'd love to see "Oppenheimer," and all week he hasbeen asking, "Oppenheimer," whattime is it? He said, "What time is it on? He said it would be on TV.
Waka: He is mistakenly thinking it's TV. Not going to the cinema.
Michiko: I would say, "Oppenheimer" is showing now, so we have to go and see it. Then he would
say, oh, that's right, and then he would say, it's years later (when it will be on TV and he can watch it ).

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But a few hours later, (he forgets and) he would say the same thing.
Waka: You mean they will it on TV in a few years?
Michiko: Yeah. When I say they will, I don't know if he's alive or not, but just in case, I say, and again
within minutes, even hours later, he would say, what time is "Oppenheimer"?
Waka: That's a big word for your father, "Oppenheimer," so I guess he wants to see it.
Michiko: It's science. But it's absolutely right because it's what he is feeling.
Waka: Why don't you go see it? In a movie theater. But can't you sit there long? It's more than twohours, that one, I bet. It looks long.
Michiko: "Oppenheimer's".
Waka: I haven't gone to see it either, not yet.
Michiko: I read the commentary to him, and when I do, he would say, again, maybe 10 times a day.
What time does "Oppenheimer" start? Oh, yes, his head is full of "Oppenheimer" right now.
Waka: It's "Oppenheimer". I wish I could take you to see "Oppenheimer. I feel like asking him if hewants to go see "Oppenheimer". I wonder how long it's going to be running. Is it still on?
Michiko: He can't walk (long enough to go to a movie theater).
Waka: Okay. He can't go out that far.
Michiko: He has difficulties in walking far.
Waka: Well, why don't you ask Amane to bring her computer and show it to you when you can see it
online? I mean, you can see it on the screen there, on our display. Connect the computer.
Michiko: Now “Oppenheimer”. Oh, here he comes, he would say "Oppenheimer". I read him all of
the articles related to "Oppenheimer" in the newspaper, but he knows 10 times more than thenewspaper article, because he knows more. He knows 10 times more about the atomic bomb. So, when47

I listen to that, the word 'Oppenheimer' sticks with my ears, and I become sleepy.
Waka: Because he details so much about it. How many minutes do we have? We have about threeminutes left.
Michiko: Also, when he comes home from day care, I really enjoy that interaction, he does. He says
there is a person who likes to draw pictures all the time, and then he approaches that person, and says
something he should not say. He told the person that the person should sign it.
Waka: That person drawing a picture, and the person didn't sign the picture, so Dad told the person tosign it?
Michiko: He told that person that such a nice painting should be preserved for posterity. The person
told him that it was okay because the person was drawing just for pleasure. But he said,” You shouldsign your name to such a nice painting”. That's funny.
Waka: That's the kind of conversation he is having, with other people.
Michiko: So, various, not too much about that former occupation, although most people don't talkabout it.
Waka: Good.
Michiko: I knew it would be good in that sense. What was he doing the other day?
Waka: He had freedom to do anything.
Michiko: I don't know if it was the prosecutor or the police, but it was very, very interesting for him
to hear about the bad stages and the various murders and so on.
Waka: Is the person a former police officer?
Michiko: Yes. The police or the prosecutors.
Waka: Metropolitan Police Department, or the police.

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Michiko: Also, there was a prosthetist there.
Waka: prosthetist?
Michiko: Prosthetic legs are inorganic, so they vary from one person to another, so they need adjusting
often, and so on. He talked with that person.
Waka: They hit it off well. My father is an engineer too. He makes things.
Michiko: They had something in common, and when he (Tomoo) talked, the person reacted by saying"Oh, you talk! I don't think you have talked at all, until now.”
Waka: He has been a quiet person.
Michiko: Quiet.
Waka: My father just sat there.
Michiko: He was told that he could talk this much. He was surprised himself.
Waka: I guess they get along.
Michiko: One of them used to work in mines, traveling around the world.
Waka: like this?
Michiko: Mine.
Waka: What is a mine?
Michiko: I think it's written "coal mine ore".
Waka: Mining company. Oh.
Michiko: I heard that there was a person who had traveled all over the world for that kind of thing. It
seems that their conversation went on and on.

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Waka: A man who worked for a mining company. Not that he was a miner.
Michiko: It's not like that at all.
Waka: It's not like that.
Michiko: (the one who worked as a coal miner was) my father.
Waka: If we say it over here, it would be like a staff member.
Michiko: So it sounds pretty good. He has been going there (day care) for about a year and four months,
I think.
Waka: So, I guess he has got used to it there to some extent. It is good. It's about time. Well, thank youvery much for today.
Michiko: Also interesting.
Waka: Do you have any more words?
Michiko: No. The sweater he wore happened to be a bright color. I told him it was a beautiful color,and he has been wearing it ever since.
Waka: Does he want to wear that color every time? What color is it?
Michiko: I complimented on him. It could be yellow or emerald green. They look great on him because
he is dark.
Waka: Emerald green. He wants to wear that color.
Michiko: Also, I’d tell him when he gets compliments, I should get compliments from him too, andhe should complement on various people, at least once a day.
Waka: Maybe that why Dad said that the person (who likes drawing) should sign with it. So, he waspraising the picture.

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Michiko: Those are interesting stories, lots of them.
Waka: I guess it's good to for him go out from time to time, going to day care.
Michiko: Absolutely, it's necessary.
Waka: He goes out and does something social and comes back and talks about it here.
Michiko: Here for a while.
WaKa: Yes. Well, thank you very much for your time so far.
Michiko: Will it come together well? It would be interesting if it comes together well.
Waka: I'm not quite sure what will happen, but I'll cut the recording here for now.
Michiko: I told Tomoo-san. Oon...
(End)

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