2024

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―6回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―6 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2024 年 5 月 6 日（月）12:27-13:12 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****
ワカ：お願いします。

ミチコ：叔母からの話で、私の父が昭和 3 年頃、いろりで、ブタの餌の残りの小さなジャガ
イモを火鉢で、いろりに刺して焼いていて。そこに、何をするにも厳しい、明治生まれの父親が来たので、慌てて火鉢をそばのわらに突っ込んだら、わらの家なので、一瞬で焼失しちゃったの。

ワカ：一瞬で。

ミチコ：一瞬で焼失。

ワカ：焼失しちゃったの？

ミチコ：焼けたのね。祖父は気がおかしくなった。その後、木造の家に住んだのね。だけど、父はその頃から、小枝を運んで親に渡して売ってもらって実家の足しにしたり、畳職人になったり、とにかく働いて実家に尽くしたのね。祖父は、家の奥の牢屋のような格子戸の奥の部屋にいたの。父は実家の面倒をよく見ていたのね。父や母に、おじいちゃんがなぜ、あの部屋にいるのかって聞けない雰囲気だった。父が逝って、死んで 20 年目に知ったのね。父の妹が教えてくれたの、叔母が。祖父が、気がおかしくなったっていう話を最近、聞いて知ったんだけれども。でも、父は実家の面倒をよく見てたのね。楽しい話も、キノコの話も、

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1

要らないか。

ワカ：じゃあ、キノコの話を。

ミチコ：叔母から楽しい話も聞いて。叔母が、自分のきょうだいから聞いた話として、北海道の雑木林にアカシアの木があって、アカシアの木の根元にキノコが生えてて、おいしそうだったけど、食べられるかなと思ってたら、ネコが来てむしゃむしゃ食べてて。2 日ぐらい様子見て、ネコが大丈夫だから、みんなでそのキノコを食べたら、ものすごくおいしかったって話を叔母がしてくれました。兄は、でもなんで。火事なって頭が壊れちゃったから、祖父は頭が。

ワカ：私の、ひいおじいちゃん。

ミチコ：うん。だから牢屋に入ってたのね。

ワカ：座敷牢みたいな。

ミチコ：うん。でも、子どもの頃、不思議で、なんでと思ったけど、何十年もたってから母に、叔母に聞いて納得だわね。兄は結婚 5 年目で離婚したのね、アルコール中毒、アルコー
ル依存症で。その離婚した直後に男の子 2 人を連れて、元妻は公務員の男性のところに行ったのね。兄はその頃から、歩道橋から転げ落ちて精神病院に入退院してたの。いろいろなものが見えて、それを追い掛けて、けがをする。チョウが飛んでるとか、誰かいるとかって、それを追い掛ける。それで、けがしたり。生活保護、私も生活、見切れないから生活保護を申請して、生活保護で生活してたわね。最後は病院で死亡、75 歳だったのね。兄の面倒は電話とか、年に 1、2 回、兄のところに、病院とか兄の生活してるところに行ってたんだけ
れども、ちょうど妹もその頃、69 歳で脳梗塞で倒れて、兄の面倒は見るに見れなかったので、市役所の生活保護の人とは連絡は取り合ってたのね。

ワカ：札幌市。

ミチコ：札幌市。兄が倒れて入院。また入院した頃に妹が脳梗塞で倒れ。その日が 2015 年
かな、早朝、救急隊員から電話があって、その妹の長女に連絡がつかない。同居の孫が同乗していたんだけれども、未成年で話が通じないって、すぐ来るように言われて。

ワカ：湯河原。

2

ミチコ：そう。湯河原に住んでて。妹の長女は、精神障害でネグレスト。

ワカ：ネグ？

ミチコ：ネグレスト。

ワカ：ネグレスト？

ミチコ：面倒見ない、親が子どもの。

ワカ：ネグレクト。大丈夫。

ミチコ：覚えとこう。変わった言葉使うとね。

ワカ：ネグレクト。

ミチコ：これは、それから。

ワカ：今のところ、もう一回お願いします。

ミチコ：妹の長女から。妹の長女は、精神障害でネグレクト。

ワカ：誰をネグレクトしてたの。

ミチコ：子ども。

ワカ：子どもをネグレクトしてた。

ミチコ：そう。子どもが。

ワカ：要するに、カホちゃんがネグレクトされてた。

ミチコ：そう。小学生の長女。

ワカ：長女。

3

ミチコ：長女と、それから男の子がいたね。

ワカ：そうだ。もう 1 人、子どもがいるんだ。

ミチコ：男の子がいて。男の子がいたんだけれど、この男の子は行政の計らいで、養護施設っていうんかな。

ワカ：業者っていうのは、児相のこと、児童相談。

ミチコ：業者、行政。

ワカ：行政。

ミチコ：行政の計らい。

ワカ：行政の計らいで。

ミチコ：男の子は、長男は。

ワカ：養護施設に入ってた。

ミチコ：入ってた。そしたら、その後にまた、もう 1 人、子どもが生まれて、その子を床から落としたりなんかするので、警察とかいろんな人が入って、結局、妹がこの孫を養女にしたの。これも、行政の計らいと自分たちの考えで。

ワカ：行政の計らいで。

ミチコ：結局、妹が倒れても誰も見る人がいないので、妹に懇願されて私が妹の面倒を見ることになったの。保証人になったり、身元引き受けになったり。同じか。病状が落ち着いて、老人ホームに入居するのね。結局、最後は舌がんで死亡したのね。長女は一度も面会に来なかった。妹の一人が。

ワカ：長女というのは、アッコちゃんの長女。

ミチコ：うん。妹の一人は長女にしてもらう。

4

ワカ：アッコちゃんは長女に引き取られていった。つまり、トシちゃんに引き取られていった。

ミチコ：トシは引き取らない。妹は長女から階段から突き落とされても、死ねと怒鳴られても、病気がそうさせていると、いつも耐えていた。

ワカ：病気っていうのは、精神障害ってこと。

ミチコ：そう。要するに、統合失調症だからって、病気だからっていうことで、ずっと我慢してて。その、倒れた直後に入院してたときも。

ワカ：アッコちゃんが倒れた直後に入院したときも。

ミチコ：自分の世話、全面見てほしいと懇願されたのね。

ワカ：お母さんに懇願してきたんだ。

ミチコ：そう。いつも、何度も頼まれちゃうんだけど、困ったことは。ちょっと、ちゅうち
ょするけど、見る人いないし。

ワカ：頼まれたのか。

ミチコ：もちろん。

ワカ：そういうことだったんだね。

ミチコ：病院側も長女の話は一切、聞かず、お姉さんを交えてって、病院側も医師も、事務もそう言って相手にしないのね、長女を。妹の夫と次女は、相次いで自殺して。

ワカ：どこ、相次いでか。相次いで自殺して。

ミチコ：長女が元気だった。

ワカ：元気だった。

ミチコ：元気。

5ワカ：元気だったって言うんだ、あれを。元気だよね。入院したりはしなかっんだ、トシちゃんって。

ミチコ：入院して、何回も。

ワカ：入院したっけ。

ミチコ：妹が倒れる前に何回も入院して。

ワカ：何回も入院してたんだ。

ミチコ：私もその都度、見舞いには行って、面会に行ってて。ギーッていうドアが三つぐらい入って、そこに入ってたけど。

ワカ：閉鎖病棟だった。

ミチコ：でも、すごい喜んでくれて、うれしかった。なんせ妹は、長女は病気だから、要す
るに、姉の私に全部見てくれっていうことで泣きそうになってて。だけど、長女はお金の、金銭の、要するに出納は自分に任せろ。

ワカ：出し入れ。

ミチコ：あとは、伯母さんが見なさいって言うから、それはできないって、はっきり断って。
妹もそれは困るっていうことで、また断って。また妹のこと面倒見ることになっちゃったのよね。なんか、薬剤師の妹は精神病院で病室回りをしていたんだけれど、仕事では患者に対応できても、わが娘には相当、難しかったのね。暴言、苦言、暴力で、妹一家は疲弊してたの。

ワカ：それは、トシちゃんのだよね？娘は 2 人いるから、長女のことに。

ミチコ：全部重なるかも。4 人家族、夫と次女が相次いで自殺して、通院先の病院からも、長女の診察を断られたの。長女は、長女は 2 度、結婚してるのね。初婚で女の子、2 度目で男の子 2 人を出産して。前後してごめんね。

ワカ：大丈夫。

6ミチコ：長男が養護施設、次男は 7 カ月で死亡。医者に殺されたと投稿して、何。

ワカ：投稿ね。

ミチコ：何に投稿。

ワカ：何に投稿したの？ ネット？

ミチコ：そうだね。

ワカ：ネットでしょう。

ミチコ：もう、みんな捨てちゃった。医者に殺されたと投稿して、大学病院で解剖してもらったんだけど、結果は突然死だった。納得できないから、弁護士に依頼しても断られたのね。

ワカ：納得してないから、訴訟にしようと思って弁護士のところに行ったら、弁護士に断られた。

ミチコ：何軒も。

ワカ：何軒もね。

ミチコ：妹が仕事中は、何度か私も精神病院から呼び出されたのね。父親は、長女なんか怖がってて。

ワカ：父親って、カツヒコおじちゃん。

ミチコ：そう。だから結局、家庭が崩壊してたのかな。そこに私が頼まれて、何度か病院行ったり、何度か言われるままに面倒は見てたね。

ワカ：これは、アッコちゃんが倒れるずっと前の話。

ミチコ：前の話。そうなのよね。

ワカ：カツヒコおじちゃんは、うつではなかった?

7

ミチコ：職場との兼ね合いも悪かったし、長女とのあつれきも、あったわね。なんか、病気といって、みんな長女に気を使ってて、結局、自分たちが疲れ切っちゃって死んじゃったって感じに、私には見えたけど。

ワカ：最初に具合悪くなったのトシちゃんで、マアちゃんは後から具合悪くなったんだ。

ミチコ：同時進行みたいに。次女が、妹の次女が朝、血まみれになっていたのね、手首切って出血がひどくて。そのそばに父親がいて、夫がいて、泣いてた。

ワカ：父親、夫？

ミチコ：カツヒコさん。そんなことあって、自殺未遂だったんだけど。でも、その何カ月か後には、妹の夫も、うつ患って、結局、薬剤師やから青酸カリ飲んで。

ワカ：おじちゃんね。

ミチコ：亡くなっちゃった。だから、残るは妹 1 人だった。

ワカ：そうね。引きこもってたんだよね、マアちゃんは。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：なんか医学部に行かなきゃいけなかった、みんな。

ミチコ：うん。夫の家系が医者なので。

ワカ：アッコちゃんの夫の家系が医者。

ミチコ：結局、子ども 2 人に、医者になれっていうことで。それに、その父親の希望に追い付かない子どもたちは、精神、病んだのかな。よく分からないけど。そんなこんなで、妹が倒れて病院入っても、入院したときは全然、行かないので、医者のほうが。

ワカ：行かないって、誰が。

ミチコ：長女が。呼ばれても連絡ないし、結局、私のところに病院から連絡、来て。結局、

8

また妹に再度、懇願されて、面倒見てっていうことで面倒見たの。だけど、お金の管理だけを要求してくるから、本当。

ワカ：トシちゃんが。お金を管理させろって言ってきたんだ。

ミチコ：言ってきてる。でも、妹は。

ワカ：駄目だと。

ミチコ：全部、私に一任して。長女は弁護士に相談したの。そしたら逆に、面倒見ないあな
たは伯母さんに訴えられると言われて、妹の姉の私に、訴えないと懇願してきたの、弁護士に言われたから。まさか、そんなことしないわって言うと、私に、人は気持ちが変わるから
念書、書いてって強く言う。訴えませんと書いて渡した。妹の死後、家の権利書も預金通帳、生命保険、全て長女に渡したの。そのときは立会人を 2 人付けた。はんこももらって、きちんとしたつもりなんだけれども、1 年後に裁判所から呼び出しを受けたの。

ワカ：呼び出しを受けた。

ミチコ：弁護士同行で行くの。調停委員に事情を話す。2 回目の話し合いは、長女の希望で4 カ月後になったのね。4 カ月後に行くと、長女は来てなかった。どんな方法しても、ファックスしても電話しても、それからメールしても、なんだか、あと携帯に電話しても連絡取れないと調停委員が困っていたの。調停はここで打ち切られた。それっきりなの。

ワカ：それ以来、会ってない。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：何の連絡もないんだね。

ミチコ：うん。どのへんが（話の）山になるかな。私はキノコの話が一番、好き。

ワカ：キノコの話。トミコ叔母さんに聞いたお話なのね。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：でも、トミコ叔母さん、よく覚えてた。

9ミチコ：ものすごく記憶いいの。95 歳だけど、すごいいい。

ワカ：おじいちゃんの、タツオさんの。

ミチコ：一番、下の妹。

ワカ：一番、下の妹。何人きょうだいだっけ。

ミチコ：8 人きょうだい。

ワカ：8 人きょうだいで、おじいちゃんが何番目なんだっけ。

ミチコ：2 番目、次男。

ワカ：2 番目、次男。トミコ叔母ちゃんは一番、下で、その火事になったときは。

ミチコ：まだ生まれてなかった。

ワカ：生まれてなかったけど、その話を聞いたんだ。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：聞いた話を、また聞いたんだね、今回この。

ミチコ：そう。だから、すごいよかった。

ワカ：すごいね。おじいちゃんは生前、その話しなかった。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：それで、座敷牢に結び付いてたのか。

ミチコ：だから、ブタの餌が大きいので、直径何センチぐらい、これくらいあると 1 メータ
ー、それくらいのブタの餌を作ってて。その芋を、そおっと食べたって、いっぱいあったし。

10

ワカ：小腹が空いてるから、おじいちゃんは、それを火鉢で焼いて。

ミチコ：父は、もっと昔、私たち生まれてないとき、ブタの餌、どうしようもないものを。

ワカ：イモ。

ミチコ：1 センチかそこらのちっちゃいものを、何かに刺して焼いてて。

ワカ：焼いてて。

ミチコ：見つかったから慌てて。

ワカ：慌てて、わらに。

ミチコ：そこにある。

ワカ：わらの所に置いちゃった。

ミチコ：わらに隠したつもりが。

ワカ：火がついちゃって。ちっちゃいから分かんないよね。

ミチコ：壮絶な話よね。

ワカ：壮絶な話だよね。だって、一気に焼けちゃったんだ。

ミチコ：気がおかしくなるよね。そこに、おばあちゃんがいたのか、誰がいたのか分かんな
いけど、おじいちゃんだけだったのかもしれないし。

ワカ：分かんないもんね、そのときの話は。

ミチコ：そんなこと、あったんだって。

ワカ：それが、生まれてなかった妹に語り継がれるほどの大きい出来事だった。

ミチコ：叔母は、戦時中は竹やりを持って、えいやってやってたって。だから、学校なんか11行けなかった。だから、女学校の行った人も、行かない人も同じぐらいだったって、教育受けられなかったから。みんな軍事何とか作って、それで、戦後は叔母が十幾つかな、14、15ぐらいなのかな、郵便配達して、丘の上ずっと配達をして、事務は手のない人とか足のない男性がやってたって。

ワカ：傷痍軍人ってこと。

ミチコ：それは、すごく胸が痛かった。だから戦争は絶対、駄目だよって。電話で話すたびに、戦争は駄目だって、いつも言ってる、今の情勢。

ワカ：今の情勢心配してるんだ。

ミチコ：社会情勢心配してる。戦争、知ってる人いないからね。私も戦争、知らないから、
傷痍軍人の姿は？るけども、缶か何か置いて、白い物、着てお金を乞うてたのは何回も見てる、小さいときに。でも、胸は痛いっていうよりも、うん？って感じだったけど、叔母は直接それやってるから。

ワカ：戦争経験してるから。

ミチコ：だから、戦争は駄目だって、ずっと言ってた。

ワカ：トミコ叔母さんは、戦争中は北海道にいたの？

ミチコ：いたの、実家に。

ワカ：実家ってことは、芦別じゃなくて富良野。

ミチコ：上富良野。

ワカ：上富良野にいた。

ミチコ：叔母の夫は戦争から帰ってきたから、ろくな、ろくなっていうか職業はないから。
でも、結局ホップの会社、サッポロビール、ビールの会社に勤めて、そこで知り合って 2 人は結婚したの。だから、おじさんは戦争、知ってるから、おじさんから、そんな接触なかったから、戦争の話、聞いたことないけど、叔母からはしょっちゅう、今でも戦争の話するよね。

12

ワカ：今、何歳なんだっけ。

ミチコ：95。

ワカ：95 になったんだ。

ミチコ：9 月 10 日で。だから、95 でいいよね、14 歳違う。叔母の話、聞くのは、いいかもしれない。

ワカ：叔母さんのとこ、上富良野に。

ミチコ：札幌で働いて、違う、上富良野でビール工場の。

ワカ：ビール工場の。

ミチコ：ホップ摘み。

ワカ：ホップ摘みやってた。

ミチコ：だから、ビールは絶対サッポロだよって、私いつも言われる。

ワカ：サッポロを。

ミチコ：他のを飲んだら駄目だよ。

ワカ：サッポロのブランドのを飲みなさいと。

ミチコ：そう。自分、ものすごく会社に愛が強くて。

ワカ：愛社精神。

ミチコ：すごい強い。サッポロビールで、こういうふうに自分たち家を建てたし、こうやって年金も少しもらってるし、本当にありがたい。

ワカ：トミコ叔母さん、いい人生だよね、なんか。

13

ミチコ：戦後、仕事がないときに、夫婦雇ってくれて。ただ、学歴とかそういうことがあって、ずっと臨時だったのね。正社員ではなかったわけ。

ワカ：でも、退職金とかもらえ・・・。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：そうだったんだ。

ミチコ：そう。戦争の話は、しょっちゅうするな。

ワカ：おじいちゃんたちは、あまりしなかったよね。樺太もソ連侵攻してきたでしょう、当時、歴史的に見れば。

ミチコ：戦争は、しない人しないよね。

ワカ：しないよね。だけど本読む限りでは、ソ連が来てるはずなの。すぐ逃げてないから、公的引き揚げで帰ってきてると思うんだよね、多分おじいちゃんって。しばらく、いたはず。
確かに、ソ連の、ロシアの人と働いたって話は聞かされた。

ミチコ：すごい楽しかったって。

ワカ：すごいロシア語しゃべってたよね、おじいちゃん。

ミチコ：しゃべってたね。

ワカ：だから、戦後しばらくはロシアの人が来て、それで炭鉱で働いてたんだと思う。

ミチコ：なんか敵意、持ったりとか、そういうの全くなかったもんね。

ワカ：なんかそういう、すごい怖い話は、私も聞かなかった。ただ、ソ連の人と働いてたって。ソ連の人の下で働いてた。

ミチコ：なんか友好的だったわよね。

14ワカ：むしろ朝鮮の人が、すごい、ひどい扱いを受けててかわいそうだったって話も聞かされた。こっちのダークの話ね。

ミチコ：2015 年から 2017 年まで、私は妹の面倒を見て、老人ホームで 2 年弱、過ごしたのね。

ワカ：アッコちゃんが。

ミチコ：妹。私は、ほぼ毎日、通って。その頃、札幌の兄がまた入院して、入退院繰り返して、そのときは妹の面倒で、遠くて行けなかった。

ワカ：こうしてみると、うちは精神疾患多いよね、多分。多いって、比べたことないから分
かんないけど。

ミチコ：いや、私自身よかった。

ワカ：どの世代にもいるよね、精神疾患の人が。

ミチコ：妹は 2017 年で、兄は 2018 年に逝っちゃったの。妹が逝って、兄の入院先、行くと言って、病院にいつも電話してたんだけど、3 カ月後に兄が逝っちゃったの、妹が死んでから。兄の子どもは引き取りを拒否で、私も無理で行政で葬られた。これが、病院から報告があったの。

ワカ：お葬式の。

ミチコ：亡くなりましたって。

ワカ：亡くなりましたっていう。

ミチコ：こちらで。

ワカ：荼毘に付します。

ミチコ：そうしましたって。だから、兄との連絡先とは、いつも連絡取り合ってて。もちろん妹のほうは私が行ってたから、だから、私は 2 人を見たと思ってる。私は夫の両親を見て、自分の両親を見て、妹を見て、兄も見て、今、認知症の夫を見て。

15

ワカ：私たちも見てって感じ、アマネとか。

ミチコ：そんなの書いてないよね。どっかに。

ワカ：前、少し入ってた。

ミチコ：思い付くままに、ずっと書いてた。でも、認知症って分かったら、なんだ、病気かって思ったときは、ほっとしたわね。

ワカ：お父さんがね。

ミチコ：それまでは怖かったもんね。

ワカ：人が変わっちゃったかなって思ったもんね。

ミチコ：無表情になったし、があっと怒るし、そういうこと結構あるよね。

ワカ：病気なのかって。

ミチコ：なんだ、こうなんだとか。そんなので殺人、起こったりするんだもん、結局。

ワカ：分からないから。

ミチコ：とことん。でも嫌だったのは、青山の親、見るのが一番、嫌だったな。だって、嫌いだったもん。

ワカ：嫌いだったもんね。あれ、どうにもならなかったんでしょう、当時。あれ以外なかっ
た、やり方が。

ミチコ：ていうか、そうだね。長男が何でも責任取る、見るっていう時代の終わりよね。

ワカ：そうだからね。あの人たち、おじいちゃんとおばあちゃんも、そうやったもんね。明治生まれの人だもんね。

ミチコ：家じゅう、お父さんが倒れて入院したら、青山の弟も、それから、その妻のおばあ16ちゃんも家じゅう探して、現金通帳、探して、通帳は全部ゼロで現金がなくて。

ワカ：おじいちゃん、お金ない人だった。

ミチコ：おかしい、聞けって言われて。でも、欲のないトモオさんは、まるっきり聞かなかったの。でも、おじいさんが、実はっつって教えてくれたの。

ワカ：もう、これ時効だから。

ミチコ：お仏壇の裏の裏の裏に、上手に隠してあった、通帳を。その入院中に、愛人というか、お母さんと結婚する前からの人が見舞いに来たのね、代理で。

ワカ：代理で。

ミチコ：置き屋だから。

ワカ：本人じゃなくて。

ミチコ：置き屋だから、本人じゃなくて。だけど。

ワカ：置き屋にいたんだ、その当時。

ミチコ：うん。子ども生まれないから、結婚させてもらえなかった。

ワカ：いわゆる身請けはしなかったってこと。

ミチコ：うん。結婚してからも、ずっとお父さん、そっちに行ってたの。たまに帰ってくると、子どもができる。

ワカ：それは、本妻との間に。

ミチコ：うん。また 3 年ぐらい戻ってこなくて、また戻ってきたら、また。

ワカ：そんなに戻ってこなかったのか。

ミチコ：また 3 年、子ども、またできる。なんで、そんな拒否しないのっつったら、だって、

17

子どもいっぱいになっちゃって、じっとしてなきゃいけないからって母は言ってた、よく。
私が、そんな人を受け入れるなんておかしいよって言ったら、だって、嫌だとか騒いだりしたら、子どもが、ずらっと寝てるから。

ワカ：おばあちゃんはね。

ミチコ：拒否できなかった。子ども、また生まれる。そんな感じで。

ワカ：そうだったんだ。

ミチコ：そうだよね。

ワカ：お父さんのほうって、精神疾患の人いないよね。

ミチコ：いない。そういうことを軽蔑するうち。

ワカ：いや、本当だなって思っちゃった。

ミチコ：その辺とは違うとか。

ワカ：ちょっとお高い。

ミチコ：何さまかって感じ。

ワカ：イメージはある。

ミチコ：何さまかって思って。

ワカ：おばあちゃんが庄屋の娘だったんだっけ。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：おじいちゃんは取り立てて、何かの息子とかいうわけじゃなかったんでしょう？

ミチコ：うん。何なのね。深い話があるわけよね、なんか書きとめてないけど。キノコの話が面白いなって。

18ワカ：キノコの話は、ほのぼのする。

ミチコ：ネコ観察してた。

ワカ：ネコがね。

ミチコ：ネコ観察してた。

ワカ：ネコ観察して。

ミチコ：1 日じゃないよ、2 日間だった。

ワカ：2 日、ネコがおかしくならないか見てたんだ。おなか壊さないかと。

ミチコ：よく、こんななるっていうでしょう？

ワカ：毒キノコ食べたらね。

ミチコ：みんなで、すごくおいしかったって。

ワカ：そうだよね。

ミチコ：アマちゃんの話も少しあるけど。でも、したかもしれないね。自分の両親も不仲だ
もんね。

ワカ：自分の両親って、お母さん自身の両親。不仲も多いよね。お父さんの両親、不仲じゃない？

ミチコ：私の両親なんか、裁判所まで行ったんだから。

ワカ：うちに平和ないね。

ミチコ：ない。

ワカ：なんか、けんかしてるか、誰かが頭おかしくなってるか。

19ミチコ：だから、長男は学校で問題起こして、担任教師から呼び出しされてるでしょう。うちまで、先生、自宅まで。

ワカ：それ、中学生のとき、高校生のとき。

ミチコ：小学校のとき。

ワカ：小学校のときからか。

ミチコ：だから、その前に担任になった先生は、健康的で活発だって評価してたけど、その後になった先生は、とんでもない、大きくなったら犯罪者になるって嫌われたの。だから、その先生から自宅まで呼び出されたりしたけど、私も夫の父が寝たきりだから、おむつ替えては、自転車で飛んで先生のうちに呼び出されて行ったけど、夫には言えないし。

ワカ：今、考えたら、家まで呼ぶなんて、ちょっと。

ミチコ：だから、まだ恨んでる。

ワカ：本当だよね。ちょっとやり過ぎだよね、先生も。

ミチコ：でも、先生も知的障害の子どもがいて。

ワカ：だから、家から出れなかったのかも。ややこしいね。

ミチコ：単身赴任してて、その先生。

ワカ：だから先生も、学校で会うわけにいかなかったのか。いろんな都合があるんだな。

ミチコ：私も電話で、わあって先生から抗議がくると、夫のしゅうとのおむつを片手で替えながら、話ずっと続けてた。

ワカ：なんか、すごい修羅場だね。

ミチコ：でも、その頃は、先生は先生だから、時代、違ったの。今そんなことしたら大変よ。

20

ワカ：今そんなことしたら。

ミチコ：夫は、ほとんどしゅうとの状態、知らないし、私は、みっともないと思ったから、愚痴はこぼさないで頑張っちゃった。プールでいつも泣いてた。ちょっとだけ市民プール行って、泳いで帰ってくるんだけど。しゅうとが死んで、市民対象の芝居のオーディション受
けて、舞台の隅っこに立って、文章教室に通って。母はがんで逝って、4 年後、父も自宅で逝った。長男は落ち着いてきて、長女は、おとなしかった。

ワカ：長女は、おとなしかった。

ミチコ：その頃、落ち着いたはずなのに、うつ病になって 2 年間、通院してたの。

ワカ：お母さんがね。

ミチコ：何をするにも自分が悪いって死にたかったんだけど、妹の、身近に自殺した人がいて、残された人がどれだけ傷つくかってことを、よく知ってたので、そこがブレーキになったのかな。

ワカ：アッコちゃんのところで、自殺してる人がいたから。

ミチコ：そのときは。その頃、長女が一人親になって、妊娠して女児が誕生して。長女が就職して、私が孫を見る生活が始まったら、いつの間にか、うつが治ってた。横浜の学校の送り迎えも、校長先生の呼び出しも私、誕生会するのも私。生徒さんから、ばばと呼ばれていた。通学しやすいように引っ越したの。これ、3 月 11 日の話はしてるもんね。

ワカ：そう、それはした。

ミチコ：本当すごかった。街灯が、がらんがらんって。

ワカ：3 月 11 日。

ミチコ：周りの人、みんな助けてくれるの。すごいと思った。

ワカ：すごい助け合ったんでしょう。

ミチコ：どんな知らない人が、みんな、みんな。

21ワカ：みんな助け合ってた。

ミチコ：すごかった。上、行ったら歩くんじゃないとか。

ワカ：いろいろ教えてくれるの。

ミチコ：食べ物、与えてくれるとか。だから、困ったら、あんなに助け合うんだと思って。

(沈黙)

ミチコ：あんまり深い話ないね。

ワカ：いや、結構うちのダークな話が聞けた。

ミチコ：悪口になってんじゃないかと思って。そんなことはない？

ワカ：悪口ではないんじゃない、こういうことが起きましたっていう話だから。

ミチコ：淡々と話できないんです、感情は。

ワカ：いや、感情は、こういう場合は普通、感情が湧いてくると思う。マアちゃんとかは結構、頼られてたの。

ミチコ：ものすごい電話。一晩中、話したこともある。トシミからも、投稿して炎上したと言って、伯母さん怖いっつって、電話が何回かあった、しょっちゅう、いろんなことで。

ワカ：自分で投稿して、自分で炎上させてるようなものなのに、騒いでんの。

ミチコ：悪口言うと、あんまりだからさ。

ワカ：マアちゃんも、ちょっとかわいそうだったよね。

ミチコ：あの子は攻撃的じゃなくて、自分に向かう子よね。

ワカ：自分自身を攻撃するタイプの子だった。双極性障害の診断、付いてたんだっけ。

22

ミチコ：付いてた。

ワカ：付いてたよね。だから、上がり下がり激しかった。

ミチコ：そうのときは電車の中で、わあっと走り回って。みんなに、どんどん壁に。

ワカ：噴水に入っちゃったりとか大変だったりとか。

ミチコ：噴水に、美術館。あの子、美術好きだし。

ワカ：美術好きだった。

ミチコ：だから、美術館に行って、噴水で大暴れして。大暴れっていうか、はしゃいで。

ワカ：はしゃいじゃったの？

ミチコ：そこで止められて。警察までは呼ばれてなかったけど、でも、精神病院に強制入院みたいになったわね。

ワカ：医療措置入院になった。

ミチコ：そうだね。すごい、妹とすごい関わってきたんだ。

ワカ：だいぶん、なんか、おじちゃんが亡くなった後、私が住んだりしてたでしょう。

ミチコ：そうだ。

ワカ：マアちゃん、そのときは、どっちかっていうと、うつっぽかったかもしんない、そうというよりは、私がいたとき。

ミチコ：男の子を連れ込んでたでしょう？

ワカ：その時期。

ミチコ：雨の中、本当かわいそうだった。雨の中、その男のおうちで、じいっと待ってて、

23

ピンポン鳴らして。

ワカ：彼が待ってた、彼女が待ってた。

ミチコ：私も知らなかったけど、伯母さん、ちょっと付き合ってって言うから。

ワカ：そしたら、外に彼が待ってた。

ミチコ：誰もいなかった。

ワカ：誰もいなかった。

ミチコ：彼のうちのイヤホン鳴らすの、雨の中。

ワカ：彼女が彼の家に行って。ちょっとストーカーです。

ミチコ：そうなの。

ワカ：それは、ストーカー。

ミチコ：そこのうちに、ずうっと泊まったり、そういう付き合いをしてたのね。向こうの親も認めてたけど、破綻しちゃったから。

ワカ：それは、お互いの親は認めてたのね。

ミチコ：破綻した後も、うちの孫と重なっちゃって嫌だけど、破綻した後も、ずうっと。

ワカ：好きだったわけだ、マアちゃんが彼を。

ミチコ：雨の中ずっと。

ワカ：それで症状悪くなった感じあるよね。

ミチコ：おびえてたもん、相手のうち。

ワカ：相手が。

24

ミチコ：カーテンから、こうやって見てたから。

ワカ：向こうから見るとストーカーだもん。

ミチコ：怖いよね。自分のうちも、ちゃんとできないのに。私も、なんで親の面倒とか。ちょっときつい人生だったな。

ワカ：こうして見ると。

ミチコ：深掘りしたいところある？

ワカ：深掘りしたいところは、どこだろう。深掘りしたいところは、またあらためて聞こうと思ってるんだけど、（これまでのインタビューの）全体、読んでから。

ミチコ：あともう一回だね。

ワカ：もう一回のときは、まだ、今回と同じようにやって。それが終わった後に一回、全体を私が読ませてもらって。

ミチコ：まだ、もうないけど。

ワカ：詳しく聞きたいところあるか。もうない。

ミチコ：だって、言えば切りがないぐらいあるから。

ワカ：なんか、あと 1 回分、何か書いて。来月ないから、再来月だから。じゃあ、きょうは早いけど、この辺で終わりましょう。ありがとうございました。

(了)

25

Michiko's Life - Narrative of the 6th Interview2
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Interview with Michiko on Monday, May 6, 2024, 12:27-13:12
Interviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Please start.
Michiko: My aunt told me that my father was roasting small potatoes left over from feeding pigs on a
brazier around Showa 3 (1928). His father, who was born in the Meiji era and was very strict ineverything he did, came over, and so my father hurriedly put the brazier into the straw beside it. Then,since their house was made from straw, it burned down instantly.
Waka: In an instant.
Michiko: Burned down in an instant.
Waka: Did it burn down?
Michiko: It burned down. My grandfather went crazy. After that, they lived in a wooden house. But
my father worked for the family from that time on, carrying twigs and giving them to his parents tosell to support the family, becoming a tatami craftsman, and so on. My grandfather lived in the backof the house, in a room behind a latticed door that looked like a prison cell. My father took good careof the family. The atmosphere was such that I couldn't ask my father or mother why my grandfather
was in that room. I found out about it 20 years after my father passed away. My father's sister told me,2Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy. Highlighted

portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author would like to thank Michiko,the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan and Professor Christian Pasion of Ateneo deDavao University for their advice in starting this study; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the Shirokane-Takanawa
Counseling Room; Dr. Dan Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr. Reiko Kuroda of
the University of Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.

26

my aunt. I had recently heard that my grandfather had gone insane. But my father took good care of
the family. There are also fun stories, like a mushroom story, but don’t I need to talk about it?
Waka: Okay, let's talk about mushrooms.
Michiko: I also heard a fun story from my aunt. My aunt told me a story that she heard from her
siblings about an acacia tree in a wooded area in Hokkaido. There were mushrooms at the root of theacacia tree. Her siblings wondered if they were edible, and a cat came over to eat them. They watched
the cat for about two days, and the cat was fine. So, they all ate the mushrooms, and they tasted really
good. My brother was like, "But why?” My grandfather's head was broken because of the fire.
Waka: My, great-grandfather.
Michiko: Yeah. So he was in jail (in a room for confining him as a lunatic in their house)
Waka: Like a “zashikiroh.”
Michiko: Yeah. But as a child, I wondered and wondered why, but decades later, I asked my mother,my aunt, and it makes sense. My brother got divorced after five years of marriage, because he was an
alcoholic, addicted to alcohol. Right after that divorce, his ex-wife took their two boys with her andshe went to live with a man who was a government employee. My brother had been in and out ofmental hospitals since then after falling off a footbridge. He would see things, chase after them, andget hurt. He would see a butterfly flying, or someone flying, and he would chase after it. Then hewould get injured. Welfare, because I couldn't support him, so he applied for welfare, and he was living
on welfare. He died in the hospital at the end, he was 75 years old. I used to call my brother, a and I
would visit him once or twice a year in the hospital or at his place of residence, but my sister had astroke at the age of 69, so I couldn't take care of him, so I kept in touch with the welfare people at thecity hall.
Waka: Sapporo City.
Michiko: Sapporo City. My brother collapsed and was hospitalized. Around the time he washospitalized again, my sister collapsed with a stroke. That day, I think it was 2015, early in the morning,
I got a call from the paramedics that they couldn't reach my sister's eldest daughter. Her granddaughter
who lives with her was in the car with her, but she was a minor and couldn't communicate with them,so they told me to come right away.

27

Waka: Yugawara.
Michiko: Yes. She lived in Yugawara. My sister's eldest daughter is mentally disturbed and “negrested”.
Waka: Neg?
Michiko: Negresto.
Waka: Negresto?
Michiko: I don't take care of them, parents don't take care of their children.
Waka: Neglect. It's okay.
Michiko: I'll keep that in mind. I was using a word that was not familiar to me, so.
Waka: Neglect.
Michiko: This, then.
Waka: Can you repeat what you were saying one more time?
Michiko: From the story about my sister's oldest daughter. My sister's eldest daughter is mentally ill
and neglected.
Waka: Who was neglected?
Michiko: Her child.
Waka: She was neglecting her child.
Michiko: Yes, her child.
Waka: In short, Kaho was neglected.

28

Michiko: Yes, her oldest daughter in elementary school.
Waka: Her eldest daughter.
Michiko: She had an eldest daughter and then a boy.
Waka: Yes. She had another child.
Michiko: There was a boy. There was a boy, but the government arranged for him to go to an orphanage,
I think that’s how it was called.
Waka: By the government, you mean something like a child consultation center?
Michiko: “Gyosei”, administration.
Waka: Administration.
Michiko: Administrative arrangement.
Waka: Arrangement by the government.
Michiko: The boy, her oldest son.
Waka: He was in a foster home.
Michiko: He was in it. Then, another child was born, and after that, the police and various other peoplecame in because she would drop the child from the floor and so on, and eventually my sister adopted
her granddaughter. This was also done by the government and their own idea.
Waka: Arrangement by the government.
Michiko: In the end, my sister begged me to take care of her because she had no one to watch herwhen she fell ill. I became her guarantor and undertaker. Same thing. So her medical condition settled
down and she moved into a nursing home. She ended up dying of tongue cancer. Her eldest daughter
never came to visit her. One of her sisters.

29

Waka: This eldest daughter is Akko's eldest daughter.
Michiko: Yes. One of the younger sisters will be the eldest.
Waka: Akko-chan was taken in by the eldest daughter. In other words, Toshi took her in.
Michiko: Toshi didn’t take her in. Even though my sister was pushed down the stairs by her eldest
daughter and yelled at her to die, she always endured it, saying that her illness made her (her eldest
daughter) do it.
Waka: By illness, you mean mental disorder?
Michiko: Yes. In short, she had to put up with her for a long time because she (her eldest daughter was
schizophrenic, because she was sick. Even when she (Akko) was hospitalized right after she collapsed.
Waka: Even when Akko was hospitalized right after she collapsed.
Michiko: She begged me to take care of her, to watch over all of her.
Waka: She begged you, Mom.
Michiko: Yes. I'm always asked to do such things over and over again, especially when they are introuble. I was a little hesitant, but there is no one to take care of her.
Waka: She asked you to do it.
Michiko: Of course.
Waka: Now I see.
Michiko: The hospital staff did not listen to her eldest daughter at all, and with my sister in the room,
the hospital, the doctors, and the office staff did not deal with her, saying so. My sister's husband andsecond daughter committed suicide one after the other.
Waka: Where, one after another? Suicide after suicide.

30

Michiko: Her oldest daughter was fine.
Waka: She was fine.
Michiko: She was fine.
Waka: You say that she was fine, even though she was in such a condition. She was never hospitalized,
Toshi?
Michiko: Hospitalized, many times.
Waka: Was she hospitalized?
Michiko: She had been hospitalized many times before my sister collapsed.
Waka: She had been hospitalized many times.
Michiko: I went to visit her each time when she was hospitalized. There were about three doors thatwere gated, and I would go in there.
Waka: It was a closed ward.
Michiko: But she was so happy, so happy. My sister was almost in tears because her eldest daughter
was ill, and she wanted me, her older sister, to take care of everything. But her eldest daughter insisted
that she should be the one to be in charge of the money, of the finances, in short, the receipts anddisbursements.
Waka: Disbursements and withdraws.
Michiko: Then she suggested that I should take care of the rest, and I clearly refused, saying I couldn't
do it. My sister also refused because she didn't want her to do so. So I had to take care of my sister
again. My sister, who is a pharmacist, was working in a mental hospital, but even though she was able
to deal with patients at work, she was having difficulties with her own daughter. The verbal abuse,
bitterness, and violence exhausted my sister’s family
Waka: That's Toshi's (abusive behavior), right? She (Akko) had two daughters, so it's about her oldest

31daughter.
Michiko: It could all overlap: a family of four, her husband and second daughter committed suicide
one after the other, and the hospital where her eldest daughter (Toshi) went as a patient refused to seeher (Toshi). Her eldest daughter, she's been married twice. She gave birth to a girl in her first marriage
and two boys in her second. Sorry for the back and forth.
Waka: It's okay.
Michiko: First son in foster care, second son died at 7 months. (Toshi) Posted that he was killed by adoctor, what.
Waka: She posted.
Michiko: Posted where.
Waka: Where? The internet?
Michiko: Yes, that's right.
Waka: It must be the Internet.
Michiko: I've already thrown them all away. She posted that the doctors killed him (her second son)and had him autopsied at the university hospital, but the result was sudden death. She wasn't convinced,
so she asked for a lawyer, but she was refused.
Waka: She wasn't convinced, so she went to a lawyer to file a lawsuit, but the lawyer turned her down.
Michiko: (She went to) Many lawyers.
Waka: A number of lawyers.
Michiko: When my sister was at work, I was called out of the mental hospital several times. Her father
was scared of his eldest daughter.
Waka: Father is Uncle Katsuhiko.

32

Michiko: Yes. So I guess the family was eventually falling apart. I was asked to be there, and I went
to the hospital a few times and took care of her (Toshi) as she (Akko) asked me to do a few times.
Waka: This was long before Akko collapsed.
Michiko: Before. Right.
Waka: Uncle Katsuhiko was depressed, wasn’t he?
Michiko: There were conflicts at work and with his eldest daughter. It seemed to me that everyone
was afraid of this eldest daughter (Toshi) because of her illness, and in the end, they just got exhausted
and died.
Waka: Toshi was the first one to get sick, and Maa got sick later.
Michiko: Like at the same time. Her second daughter, my sister's second daughter, was covered inblood in the morning, you know, she cut her wrist and she was bleeding badly. Her father (Katsuhiko)
was by her side, her husband (Katsuhiko) was by her side, and he was crying.
Waka: her father, her husband?
Michiko: Katsuhiko. That is what happened, and she attempted suicide. But a few months later, mysister's husband also suffered from depression, and he ended up taking cyanide because he was apharmacist.
Waka: Uncle (Katsuhiko).
Michiko: He passed away. So my sister was left alone.
Waka: Yes, that's right. Maa-chan was “hikikomori” (social withdrawal)
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: They were pressured to go to some kind of medical school, my cousins.

33Michiko: Yes. Her (Akko’s) husband's family had doctors.
Waka: Akko's husband's family had doctors.
Michiko: In the end, he wanted his two children to become doctors. And the children, who could not
keep up with their father's wishes, became mentally ill. I don't know. So when my sister collapsed andwent into the hospital, when she was hospitalized, she didn't go to the hospital at all, so the doctor was
the one to go.
Waka: Who didn’t go to the hospital?
Michiko: Her oldest daughter. Even though she was called, but she did not answer, and eventually, thehospital contacted me. In the end, my sister begged me again to take care of her, so I did. But she(Toshi) only insisted that she (Toshi) should take care of her (Akko’s) money.
Waka: Toshi did. She insisted on letting her manage the money.
Michiko: She was telling me. But my sister (refused).
Waka: She said no.
Michiko: She left everything to me. Her eldest daughter consulted a lawyer. Then, on the contrary, thelawyer told her that her aunt (Michiko) would sue her if she didn't take care of her (Akko), and she(Toshi) begged me, her mother’s sister, not to sue her, because the lawyer told her not to (sue Michiko).
When I told her that I would never do such a thing, she strongly insisted that I write a reminder letter
because people change their minds. I wrote that I would not sue her and gave it to her. After my sister's
death, I gave the deed to the house, the bank book, the life insurance, everything to her eldest daughter.
At that time, I had two witnesses. I thought I had done everything properly, but a year later, I received
a summons from the court.
Waka: You got the call.
Michiko: I went there with my lawyer. I tell the mediator what happened. the second meeting was fourmonths later at the request of her (Akko’s) eldest daughter. Four months later, I went there and she had
not shown up. The mediator was having trouble getting in touch with her by any means, faxing, calling,
texting, whatever, and also by calling her cell phone. The mediation was terminated at this point. I

34

never heard from her again.
Waka: You haven't seen her since then.
Michiko: No.
Waka: You haven't heard anything from her.
Michiko: No. I wonder which part of my story will be the highlight. I like the mushroom story thebest.
Waka: The story about mushrooms. So that's the story Aunt Tomiko told you.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: But Aunt Tomiko, I am impressed that she remembered it well.
Michiko: She has a very good memory, She is 95 years old, but her memory is great.
Waka: My grandfather's, Tatsuo's……
Michiko: His youngest, youngest sister.
Waka: His youngest, youngest sister. How many siblings does he have?
Michiko: Eight siblings.
Waka: Eight siblings were there, and my grandfather was…..
Michiko: Second, second son.
Waka: Second, second son. Aunt Tomiko was the youngest, when that fire broke out……
Michiko: She wasn't born yet.
Waka: She wasn't born, but she heard about it.

35

Michiko: Yes.
Waka: You heard what she had heard, and I heard it again, this time.
Michiko: Yes. So it was great.
Waka: That's great. Grandpa never talked about it before he died.
Michiko: No.
Waka: So it was linked to the “zashikiroh.”
Michiko: So, the pig feed was big, so we were making pig feed that was about some centimeters indiameter, a meter if it was this big, or that big. There were a lot of times when they would secretly eat
the potatoes.
Waka: He was hungry, so grandpa roasted it on a brazier.
Michiko: My father, a long time ago, when we were not born, fed pigs, something that could not be
useful.
Waka: Imo (potatoes)
Michiko: They were tiny, like an inch or so, and they were roasted on sticks.
Waka: He was roasting (the potatoes).
Michiko: He was in a hurry because his father found him.
Waka: Hurriedly, (he put the brazier) in straw.
Michiko: He did without thinking.
Waka: He put it in the straw.

36

Michiko: He thought he hid it in a straw.
Waka: It caught fire. You can't tell because you are too young.
Michiko: It's a horrible story.
Waka: It's a horrible story. Because it all burned down at once.
Michiko: No wonder he (her grandfather) went crazy. I don't know if my grandmother was there, or
who was there, maybe it was just my grandfather.
Waka: Nobody knows, right?
Michiko: That's what happened, she said.
Waka: That was a big enough event to be told to his sister (Tomoko) who had not been born then.
Michiko: My aunt used to carry a bamboo spear during the war. That's why she couldn't go to school.
So, those who went to girls' school and those who didn't were about the same, because they couldn't
get an education anyway. After the war, my aunt, who must have been around 14 or 15, worked as a
mail carrier, delivering mail all the way up the hill, while men with no hands or legs did the clericalwork.
Waka: You mean wounded soldiers.
Michiko: That was very heartbreaking. That's why she told me that war is absolutely not good. Everytime we talk on the phone, she always says that war is no good, the current situation.
Waka: She is worried about the current situation.
Michiko: She is worried about the social situation. I don't know anyone who experienced the war. I
did not experience the war either, so I don't know what wounded soldiers look like. I don't know what
a wounded soldier looks like, but I saw them many times when I was little, wearing white clothes andbegging for money, with a can or something on the ground. It’s not like I was heartbroken at the sight,
but it did make me wonder what they were. But my aunt experienced it (the war) directly.

37Waka: She has been through the war.
Michiko: That's why she keeps saying that war is no good.
Waka: Was Aunt Tomiko in Hokkaido during the war?
Michiko: She was there, at her parents' house.
Waka: Her parents' house means Furano, not Ashibetsu.
Michiko: Kamifurano.
Waka: She was in Kamifurano.
Michiko: My aunt's husband came back from the war, so he could not find a good, or rather, a goodjob. But he ended up working for a hops company, Sapporo Beer, a beer company, and that's how they
met and got married. So, my uncle knows about the war, so I have never heard him talk about the war,
but my aunt often talks about the war even now.
Waka: How old is she now?
Michiko: 95.
Waka: She has turned 95.
Michiko: (She will turn 95) On September 10th (this year, 2024). So, 95 is fine, 14 years different. My
aunt's story, it would be nice to hear.
Waka: At your aunt's place, Kamifurano.
Michiko: She worked in Sapporo, no, in Kamifurano, at the beer factory.
Waka: Brewery.
Michiko: Hop picking.

38

Waka: She was doing hop picking.
Michiko: So, I am always told that beer is definitely Sapporo.
Waka: the Sapporo.
Michiko: Don't drink anything else.
Waka: She told you to drink the Sapporo brand.
Michiko: Yes. She has a strong love for the company.
Waka: Patronage.
Michiko: Very strong. They built their own house by working with Sapporo Beer, and she has a little
pension like this, so she is really grateful.
Waka: Aunt Tomiko, she has a good life, something like that.
Michiko: After the war, when there were no jobs available, the company hired the couple. However,
because of their educational backgrounds and other factors, they were always temporary employees.
They were not full-time employees.
Waka: But they could receive retirement and other benefits.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: They did.
Michiko: Yes. She talks about war often.
Waka: My grandfathers didn't do much. Karafuto (Japanese name for Sakhalin) would have invaded
the Soviet Union, too, at the time, historically speaking.
Michiko: My parents would not talk about the war much.

39

Waka: They wouldn’t. But from what I read in the book, the Soviets must have been there. They (hergrandparents) didn't flee right away, so I think they're coming back in an official withdrawal, maybe
Grandpa. He must have been there for a while. Certainly, I was told that he worked with Soviet,
Russian people.
Michiko: He said it was a lot of fun.
Waka: He spoke Russian a lot, Grandpa.
Michiko: He did.
Waka: So I think for a while after the war, Russian people came and worked in the mines with them.
Michiko: There was no hostility or anything like that.
Waka: I didn't hear any great horror stories like that, either. I just heard that he worked with Soviet
people. He worked for the Soviets.
Michiko: It was kind of friendly.
Waka: I was also told that the people of Korea were rather pitiful because they were treated so, sobadly. The dark part of the history (of Japan).
Michiko: From 2015 to 2017, I was taking care of my younger sister. She spent about two years in anursing home.
Waka: That’s Akko.
Michiko: My sister. I went there almost every day. Around that time, my brother in Sapporo was
hospitalized again, in and out of the hospital repeatedly, and I was too far away to go because I had totake care of my sister at that time.
Waka: As we have talked so far, it seems that we have quite a lot of mental illnesses in our family. I
don't know, I have never compared (our family with others), though.
Michiko: No, I was good myself.

40

Waka: There are people in every generation, people with mental illness.
Michiko: My sister passed away in 2017 and my brother passed away in 2018. My sister passed away
and I was always calling the hospital where my brother was admitted, that I was going, but my brotherpassed away 3 months later, after my sister died. My brother's children refused to take him in, and I
couldn't either, so he was buried by the government. This is what the hospital reported to me.
Waka: About his funeral.
Michiko: I heard he passed away.
Waka: They said he passed away.
Michiko: Over here.
Waka: They are going to have him cremated.
Michiko: They said they already did. So I was always in touch with those contacts for my brother. Andof course, I was there for my sister, so I believe I took care of them both. I took care of my husband's
parents, I took care of my own parents, I took care of my sister, I took care of my brother, and now I
am taking care of my husband with dementia.
Waka: I feel like you took care of, like Amane.
Michiko: I didn't write that. Somewhere.
Waka: It was in there a little bit before (referring to previous interviews).
Michiko: I kept writing as I came up with ideas. But when I found out he (Tomoo) had dementia, I
was relieved, OK, he is sick.
Waka: My father is.
Michiko: Until then, we were scared.

41

Waka: I thought that his personality had changed.
Michiko: He became expressionless, he got angry, and there are quite a few things like that.
Waka: I was wondering if he was sick.
Michiko: I heard that it is like this. That's why murders happen, after all.
Waka: Because you don't know.
Michiko: To a great extent. But what I hated the most was to take care of Aoyama's parents. Because
I hated them.
Waka: You hated them. I guess you couldn't do anything about it, back then. There was no other way
to do it.
Michiko: I mean, no. It just happened at the end of an era in which the eldest son was responsible foreverything and supposed to take care of his parents.
Waka: That's right. Those people, my (paternal) grandfather and grandmother, expected that, too. They
were born in the Meiji era, right?
Michiko: When my father (in-law) collapsed and was hospitalized, my brother (in-law) Aoyama andhis wife's grandmother searched the whole house for cash and bankbooks, but all the bankbooks were
empty.
Waka: Grandpa, he was a man without money.
Michiko: It's funny, he told me to ask. But Tomoo, who had no greed, didn't listen at all. But Grandpa(her father-in-law) told me that where it was.
Waka: This is already a statute of limitations.
Michiko: It was well hidden behind the back of the altar, behind the back of the altar, the bankbook.
During that hospitalization, his mistress, or rather, someone he had been seeing even before he married
his wife, came to visit him, actually, her proxy.

42

Waka: Her proxy?
Michiko: Because she belonged to “Okiya” (geisha house).
Waka: Not she herself.
Michiko: She was in an okiya at that time, and so she herself did not come.
Waka: She was in an okiya.
Michiko: Yes. She was not allowed to get married because she could not have children.
Waka: It means that she could not get “miuke” (taken on).
Michiko: Right. Even after they got married, my father (in-law) always went there. When he cameback home sometimes, he would have children (with his wife).
WAKA: That's between him and his real wife.
Michiko: Yes. He would not come back for another three years, and when he did, another child wasborn.
Waka: He wouldn’t come home for such a long time.
Michiko: Another three years, another child, another child. I used to ask my mother-in-law "Why don't
you refuse him?" She used to say, "Because there were so many children sleeping (in the same room)that she had to stay still. I told her that she should not accept such a person, she said that she could not
make a fuss or say that she didn’t want to, for the children were sleeping all over the place.
Waka: My grandmother said that.
Michiko: She couldn't refuse. One child after another. Just like that.
Waka: That's what happened.

43

Michiko: Right.
Waka: My father’s family doesn't have any mental illness, right?
Michiko: No, I don't think so. They despise psychotic patients.
Waka: Right, it’s really true.
Michiko: They believe that their family is different from others.
Waka: They are pompous.
Michiko: It’s like, who are you?
Waka: I could imagine.
Michiko: I thought, "Who do you think you are?”Waka: I remember my grandmother was the headman's daughter.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Grandpa wasn't really the son of anything, was he?
Michiko: No. What is it? There's a deep story, I didn't write it down. I thought the story about themushrooms was interesting.
Waka: The mushroom story is heartwarming.
Michiko: They were observing the cat.
Waka: The cat.
Michiko: They were observing the cat.
Waka: They were observing the cat.

44

Michiko: It was not one day, it was two days.
Waka: For two days they were watching to see if the cat would go crazy. They were wondering if itwould have a stomach ache.
Michiko: People often say that this is what happens, right?
Waka: If you eat poison mushrooms.
Michiko: Everyone said it was very delicious.
Waka: That's right.
Michiko: I have a few stories about Ama-chan. But I might have already told you. My own parents
don't get along either.
Waka: Your own parents. There's a lot of disagreement. My father's parents, they did not get along,
either, did they?
Michiko: My parents went all the way to the courthouse.
Waka: No peace in our house.
Michiko: No.
Waka: It’s like either some of them are fighting or someone goes crazy.
Michiko: So, my eldest son is causing problems at school, and his homeroom teacher is calling you.
To her house, the teacher, to her house.
Waka: That's when he was in junior high and high school.
Michiko: In elementary school.
Waka: Since elementary school?

45

Michiko: So, the teacher who became his homeroom teacher before that, he rated him as healthy andactive, but the teacher who came after that, she hated him, and she said he was outrageous and would
be a criminal when he grew up. So that teacher called me to her house, but I also had to change diapers
because my husband's father is bedridden, so I had to fly by bicycle to the teacher's house to be called
there, but I couldn't tell my husband.
Waka: Nowadays, it would be too much to be called to a teacher’s house.
Michiko: So I still hold a grudge.
Waka: It's true. It's a little too much, I mean, that teacher.
Michiko: But the teacher also had a child with intellectual disabilities.
Waka: Maybe that's why she couldn't leave the house. That's complicated.
Michiko: Her husband was staying in a far place for his work, too.
Waka: So the teacher couldn't meet you at school? I guess there were many other things to consider.
Michiko: When the teacher called me to complain, I kept talking with her on the phone while changing
my husband's father’s diaper with one hand.
Waka: It's terrible.
Michiko: But back then, teachers were teachers. It would be very difficult to do something like thatnow.
Waka: If you do that now……
Michiko: My husband hardly knew about my condition with my son, and I thought it was disgusting,so I did my best not to complain. I always cried at the pool. I would go to the public pool for a shorttime, swim, and come back. After my father-in-law died, I auditioned for a citizens' play, stood in thecorner of the stage, and took writing classes. My mother passed away from cancer, and four years later,
my father also passed away at home. My eldest son had settled down, and my eldest daughter, she was46

quiet.
Waka: The eldest daughter was quiet.
Michiko: At that time, I was supposed to have settled down, but I went into a depression and I went tothe clinic for two years.
Waka: You did.
Michiko: I wanted to die, saying it was my fault for everything I did, but my sister, who had someone
close to her who committed suicide, knew all too well how much it hurts those left behind, so I guessthat put the brakes on me.
Waka: In Akko’s family, there was one who killed himself.
Michiko: Right. At that time, my oldest daughter became a single parent, got pregnant, and a baby girlwas born. My eldest daughter got a job and I started watching my grandchild, and before I knew it,
my depression was gone. I was the one who took her to and from school in Yokohama, I was the one
who was called by the principal, and I was the one who held birthday parties. The students called me
grandma. We moved so that it would be easier for us to commute to school. This, I talked about March
11, right?
Waka: Yes, you did.
Michiko: It was really amazing. The streetlights were all over the place.
Waka: March 11.
Michiko: Everyone around me, everyone helps me. I thought it was amazing.
Waka: You must have helped each other a great deal.
Michiko: Strangers, everyone, everyone.
Waka: Everyone helped each other.

47

Michiko: It was amazing. I was told that if I went up there, I would not be able to walk.
Waka: They would tell you what’s going on.
Michiko: They would give us food and things like that. Now I know that people would help each otherso much when they are in trouble.
(Silence)
Michiko: I don't have anything deep enough to say.
Waka: No, I heard quite a few of our dark stories.
Michiko: I thought it might be a bad word. Is that not true?
Waka: It's not a bad word, it's just that this is what happened.
Michiko: I can't speak plainly, emotions.
Waka: No, I think emotions usually come into play in these cases. Maa and others were quite dependent
on you, right?
Michiko: Lots of phone calls. We talked all night long. Toshimi also called me several times to tell methat she was afraid, saying that she had posted something that had gone up in flames, often about
various things.
Waka: It's like she is posting and flaming herself, but she is making a fuss.
Michiko: If I swear, I’d be sorry for her.
Waka: I felt a little sorry for Maa, too.
Michiko: That girl is not aggressive, she blames herself.
Waka: She was the type of child who attacked herself. She had a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, right?

48

Michiko: Right.
Waka: Right. So her mood goes up and down so fast.
Michiko: When she was high, she was running around on the train. (She would give something) To
everyone, and she (would bang) the wall.
Waka: It was difficult, like getting into the fountain.
Michiko: The fountain, the museum. She loves art.
Waka: She loved art.
Michiko: So, we went to the museum and she got excited in the fountain. I mean, she went on a
rampage.
Waka: Did she?
Michiko: She was stopped. They didn't call the police, but it was like a forced admission to a mental
hospital.
Waka: She was hospitalized for medical treatment. (involuntary admission).
Michiko: Yes, she was. Wow, I've been incredibly involved with my sister.
Waka: Much like, I don't know, after my uncle (Katsuhiko) passed away, I was sent to live in theirhouse and so on.
Michiko: Now I remember.
Waka: Maa-chan, I think she might have been more or less depressed then, not so much, but when I
was there.
Michiko: She brought a boy into the house, didn't she?
Waka: In those days.

49

Michiko: I was sorry to see her in the rain. She waited patiently at the man's house in the rain and rang
the doorbell.
Waka: He was waiting, or she was waiting?
Michiko: I didn't know exactly, but she asked me to go out with her for a while.
Waka: Then he was waiting for her outside?
Michiko: No one was there.
Waka: No one was there.
Michiko: She would ring the doorbell of his house, in the rain.
Waka: She went to his house. Sounds like she was a bit of a stalker.
Michiko: That's right.
Waka: It's a stalker.
Michiko: She would stay at his place for a long time, and that's the kind of relationship they had. Hisparents approved of it, but they broke up anyway.
Waka: So that's what parents of both sides approved of.
Michiko: Even after they broke up, I don't want to overlap this with what’s going on with my own
grandchild, but even after they broke up, she would be still around him.
Waka: So she liked him, Maa-chan liked him.
Michiko: She kept doing that in the rain.
Waka: I feel like that made her condition worse.

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Michiko: They were scared, I mean, his family.
Waka: His family.
Michiko: Behind the curtain, they were looking at her like this.
Waka: From their point of view, she could be a stalker.
Michiko: It's scary, isn't it? I can't even take care of my own family. Why do I have to take care of myparents? My life has been a little tough.
Waka: True, looking back.
Michiko: Is there anything you want me to dig deeper into?
Waka: Where would you like to dig deeper? I'm going to ask again what I want to dig deeper into, but
after reading the whole (of the interviews so far).
Michiko: We have only one more interview left.
Waka: Next time, let us do the same as we have done so far. Once after that has been done, let me goover the whole interviews.
Michiko: Well, I have little more to talk about.
Waka: Do you have any more questions about the details? You have no more?
Michiko: Because there is so much to say.
Waka: Write something, anything, for one more time. It's not next month, it's the month after next.
Okay, I know it's early today, but let's wrap it up. Thank you very much.
(End)

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