2024

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―4回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―4 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2024 年 3 月 12 日（月）12:46-13:39 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****
ワカ: はい、お願いします。

ミチコ: 札幌で生活してて、で、夫の出身大学の教授から連絡があって、福島に職業技術者養成所をつくるから、そこに勤務してくれっていうことで、福島に引っ越したのね。そこが福島の矢吹っていう所で、戦争のときの兵舎、飛行場があって。そこの兵舎が空きになってて、そこで生活して、そこで学生さんを機械工学とか、そういうことを教えてたのね。そのときは、最初は単身赴任で、半年たって家族、両親も、それから子ども、長女を連れて、3 歳かな、2 歳かな、連れて福島に何回も行ったんだけども、寒くて。長女におしっこをさせると、トイレに行くのは外で寒いし怖いからお部屋の中でさせたら、そのおしっこがたらいの中で凍ったことを覚えてるわね。
あと、みんなで引っ越してきて、そこで長男が生まれたの。乳母車で長男を寝かせて、まだ赤ちゃんで、長女が脇に立って買い物行ったり散歩してたんだけれども、野犬が怖くて遠回りして帰ったのがしょっちゅうあった。あと、傘とゴム長、長女が大好きで、誰もいない
大きな外の運動場で傘くるくる回して、赤い長靴と赤い傘で、それがとってもかわいかった
ね。
あと、その兵舎が古いから節穴がいっぱいあって、そこに大事なものって言って、家族の、
私たちの指輪とか、ダイヤの指輪とか、サンゴとか、いろいろぽっとんって入れてしまった、
なくすといけないから、そこにしまったって言ってたのは面白かったな。
あと、農家の人からカキの木を 1 本買って、そのカキを収穫して干し柿を作ったの。干し柿のすだれがきれいだった。それを北海道の知人とか親戚に両親が送って、喜ばれてたね。

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1

お水はポンプでガッシャンってくんでたね、井戸なのかしら。

ワカ: ポンプでくんで？

ミチコ: あとは、寒いのに 1 歳の長男がしょっちゅう飛び出して、凍傷で足が腫れ上がって、腐るかと思っちゃった。あとは、こんなぐらいかな。買い物は郡山っていう所に電車で行ったわね。

ワカ: これ、住んでた所は矢吹？

ミチコ: うん。その学校、養成所は閉校になって、神奈川県の藤沢の短大に勤めることになったのね。それで農業工学を教えてたんだけれども。

ワカ: お父さんがね。

ミチコ: うん。だけど、だんだん、よく分かんないけど自分の居場所がなくなって、コン
ピューターの学校に、勤務終わってから夜間、富士通に通って 1 年間、2 年間、勉強して資格を取って、短大で情報処理学の研究室を持った。大変な努力だったと思う。なんせ、最も必要とする学歴なかったから、大学で。

ワカ: お父さんね。

ミチコ: うん。だから、それですごくいじめに遭ったと思う。でも、自分のため、家族のためって縛りがあったみたいで、気の毒だったな。でも情報処理できる人がいなくて、自分は生かされたみたいね。そんなんで資格が何もないけれども、海外で論文を発表したりとかいろいろ実績積んで。でも学内ではほとんど認められなくて。海外で発表するなんて人は、
ほとんどその頃いなかったから。そしたら、東大出た何とか教授、有名な先生。

ワカ: 分かんないや。

ミチコ: インドネシアで会った先生が目を掛けてくださって、私が論文を指導するから書いてって言われて、半信半疑で、でも喜んで書いたら、それを博士論文として認めてくださって、それで農業博士を取ったのね。

ワカ: 農学博士？

2ミチコ: 農学、うん、だからドクターになれた。でも、すごく喜んではいなかったけれども、認められたことを本人が喜んでた。それで無事に定年退職。矢吹の話、もっとする？

ワカ: 今、だいぶ時間の流れが速かったよね。整理すると、矢吹に来ました。その技術者養成学校をしまって神奈川県に来ました。農業工学、機械工学かな、機械工学を教えました、
これ全部、お父さん。いつぐらいにその情報処理の学校に行ってた？

ミチコ: 思い出せないな。

ワカ: 私が。

ミチコ: 長後に引っ越してたわね。

ワカ: 長後に引っ越してたってことは、私がもう小学生以上だよね。

ミチコ: 聞いとく。その辺が詳しく。

ワカ: 博士号を取ったって、私が博士号を取った頃でしょう？

ミチコ: 遅かったよね。

ワカ: 相当。私が博士号を取ったのって。

ミチコ: 定年退職ぎりぎりよ。

ワカ: そうだよね。だから。

ミチコ: でも、よかったよね、本人そんなに喜んでなかったから。

ワカ: うん。2000、後で調べる。

ミチコ: そう？

ワカ: うん。私自身が取ったのは二千何年だっけ、2002 年？

ミチコ: これ増えてない。

3ワカ: 大丈夫、上に。

ミチコ: 学位記念って書いてある。

ワカ: それは、学位記念のトレーね。大丈夫、2 階にお父さんの博士論文があるから、それ見れば何年に取ったか分かるし、博士論文は検索することもできるから、それは心配要らない。でも、それ印象に残ってたってことね、お父さんの出世コースが。だから、いわばお父さんに付いていく形で引っ越してきたっていう話、つまり。要するにそういう話だよね。

ミチコ: だから、親に養われてたのが、いつの間にか友雄さんに養われて。

ワカ: お父さんになったっていう話だよね、今の話は。

ミチコ: うん。運がいいっていえばすごい運がいいよね。だって学歴のない人なんていな
いもん。いなかったから、だから彼を引っ張った教授が私に、「あなたの旦那は学歴ないか
ら出世しないよ」って言うから、「ああ、そうですか」って言ったら、「そうですかじゃない
よ、大変なことなんだよ」って言うから、「ああ、分かりました」って言って怒りを買った。
ばかみたいね、そういういじめでしょう。

ワカ: いじめか。

ミチコ:

うん。でも私、炭鉱夫の娘だから、地位だの出世だのあんまり分かんないから、そういうのなくたって大学の先生ってすごいと思ってるからね。

ワカ: すごい？

ミチコ: うん。ああいう環境からきてるから、医者とか大学の先生とか別世界の人だから。
今、全然すごくないけど、普通だけど。いじめってどこにでもあるね。

ワカ: あるね。

ミチコ: 本人をいじめても本人は反応しないから、妻をいじめたんでしょう。

ワカ: そっか。

4ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: じゃあ、もうちょっと矢吹の話を。矢吹でお父さんはどう過ごしたかは分かったけ
ど、お母さんは何してた？

ミチコ: 私は 2 人の子育てが大変だったよね。下の子が、長男が体が弱くて、しょっちゅ
う熱を出して、40 度ぐらい熱を出してへんとう炎やったり、おなかが駄目だったり、病気をいっぱいしてたから、それでいてすごい乱暴な子で、元気な子で。

ワカ: 確かに。

ミチコ: だから追い掛け回すの大変だった。野良犬がいるから、外をね、勝手に出ると危ないし。聞かん坊だった。木に囲まれたお風呂場があるんだけれども、そこでぷかあってうんこを浮かして、何回も抜いてってこともあったし。

ワカ: 赤ちゃんだから。

ミチコ: かわいかったね。その子。

ワカ: ちょっと待って、木に囲まれたお風呂っていうのはどういうこと？ 木のお風呂っていうこと？

ミチコ: そう、ヒノキじゃなくてただの木。

ワカ: 木？

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: 木が周りにあるっていう意味じゃなくて？

ミチコ: 浴槽が木。

ワカ: 浴槽が木でできてるお風呂があったってこと？

ミチコ: そう。下も全部、木。あの頃、木の時代だもんね。

5ワカ: 下も全部木、木の時代、木のお風呂だったんだ。

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: それでお風呂たいて、焼けないの？

ミチコ: ん？ かまは。

ワカ: ごめん、私、仕組みがよく分かってない、お風呂の。

ミチコ: 外からかまで、まきでたいたんじゃないかな。

ワカ: 浴槽は木なんだ。

ミチコ: うん。だったよね。その子が生まれたときに、入院したときに、前、来たときに、ん？ 待ってよ、陣痛が起きたときにトイレ行きたくなった、便がしたくなったので、もう頭が出てるから早くって言って分娩室行って。

ワカ: しゃべってて。

ミチコ: おぎゃあって生まれたら、一斉に窓をばあんって先生たちが開けたの。しばらく開けて、寒かったのね。おなかすいたでしょうってキャンディー頂いたの。今、思えば、うんこしたんだと思う。

ワカ: 産むときに？

ミチコ: そう。だから全部、窓、開けたんだと思う。絶対そうだと思う。だって、あんなに便意催してたら。上の子のときは、やっぱり大学病院だから最初に浣腸をかけられて。

ワカ: 最初にね。

ミチコ: ちゃんとそれなりにするでしょう、大学病院の付属だから。だけどやっぱり田舎の病院って。

ワカ: 先にかん腸とかしてなかった？

6

ミチコ: そうだと思う。うんこまみれの子どもを産んだんだ、きっと。

ワカ: 分かんないけど、そうだったのかな。

ミチコ: 後で聞かないけども。その赤ん坊を見に来たら、かわいいって言って長女が離れなくて、入院してる 1 週間ずっとわいわい、帰るとき泣いてた。

ワカ: ごめんなさい。

ミチコ: 「赤ちゃん、帰らない」って泣いてた、そうだったな。

ワカ: しゃべってて。

ミチコ: 赤ちゃん、かわいかったね。

(無言)

ワカ: じゃあ主婦業をしてたってことね。

ミチコ: あとは、おなかが大きくて、下の子がおなかにきたときに、ばたばた動けないし、
毛糸、機械屋に機械を持って習いに行ってたの、下の子、その長女を連れて。長女は機械の前で、なんか珍しい歌を歌って、踊って、回って、くるくるしてたな、楽しかったのかな。
セーター編むとすごく喜んで、そればかり着てて、穴開いてもそればかり着て。赤い長靴履
いて、赤い傘差して、くるくる回ってた。

ワカ: 私、よく回ってたよね、回ってた記憶、私もある。

ミチコ: うん、こうやって。だから、その赤い靴が古くなっても履いてるから、足が変形したと思う。アマネもそうだもんね。

ワカ: 指ね、足のね。

ミチコ: ね。面白い子、2 人だった。

ワカ: 矢吹から郡山に習いに行ってた？ 機械屋に。

7

ミチコ: ううん、矢吹の町内。

ワカ: 町内なんだ。

ミチコ: うん。じいちゃん、ばあちゃんは、おうちのことを一生懸命やって。土地が広いから、畑耕していろんなもんを作ってたわね。あと、私、アジサイって知らなかったの。知ってたんだけど、庭にアジサイが咲いてて、どうしても全部が開かないので、来年って思ってたら 2 年目も開かなくて。そうしたら、夫に聞いたら、「花が、ガクアジサイっつって、そういう種類だ」って言われたの。そういうアジサイ知らなかった。

ワカ: ああ、ガクアジサイのつぶつぶした所も咲くかと思ったけど。

ミチコ: そう、ずっと待ってたの。

ワカ: それがガクアジサイだった。

ミチコ: そう、知らなかったな。夫の職場に運転手さんがいて、その運転手さんがお金が困るから、自分の 300 坪、買ってくれって言うんで。土地買ってもなとか言ってたら、でも懇願されて。なんかばくちかなんかで緊急、お金要るみたいで、100 万円で買ったのね。

ワカ: 300 坪を 100 万円？

ミチコ: そう、当時ね。それが後々、藤沢に引っ越した後に、返してくれってきたからす
ごくびっくりして。

ワカ: 土地を返してくれ？

ミチコ: うん、買った土地を。権利証も全部あるのね。何のことない、バブルで何倍にもなった頃なのね。なるほどと思って。それって嫌な感じだから、もう普通に売っちゃおうと思ったら、農業委員とか何とかってあるでしょう、農地を宅地にするのに農業何とか、調べれば分かるでしょう。

ワカ: うん、調べる。

ミチコ: 農業何とかの許可がなきゃ絶対、売れないのね。

8ワカ: それ農地だったんだ、300 坪。

ミチコ: そう。だからどうしようもない土地なんだと思うけど、バブルってどうしようもないのがどうしようもよくなっちゃうんだぜ。そのときに、でも理不尽でおかしいと思って、農業委員が反対するって、何のことだ？と思って弁護士を付けたら、何てことない、弁護士が乗り込んだ、文章を出しただけであっさり許可が出て。

ワカ: 売れた？

ミチコ: うん。あんまり卑しい気持ち、そう、卑しい気持ちだったのかな。なんか理不尽だったな、あれは。

ワカ: 卑しい気持ちって、相手が？

ミチコ:

卑しい気持ちに、こっちも卑しいんでしょう。そんなの見たくないってことよ。

当たり前のように返せって言われたのも腹立ったけど、でも、そんなの正当化するんじゃな
くて、こっちも卑しい気持ちがあったから返さなかったわけでしょう。

ワカ: なるほど。

ミチコ: 100 万円で返せって言った。返せってこと自体がさ。

ワカ: 100 万円出すから返してくれと？

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: なるほどね、もっと高くなってるって思ったわけね。

ミチコ: だって、バブル真っ最中だもん。

ワカ: そっか、どっちもどっちと。

ミチコ: どっちも卑しい。そうしたら、そのバブルのときすごい面白いの。福島の家でそういうことがあって、弁護士さんが入ってあっさり解決したんだけど、札幌に住んでたときも、下がラーメン屋さんと、時計屋、わが屋で、上がアパート。

9ワカ: ラーメン屋さんと時計屋さんで、時計屋さんがうちの店？

ミチコ: そう。2 階を貸してたのね、3 部屋。そうしたら、同じバブルだけど、ある日、突然、時計屋さんに貸した人が、売ってくれって来たの。

ワカ: 時計屋さんに貸してって、時計屋さんはうちの店じゃないの？

ミチコ: だって、こっち引っ越したから。

ワカ: 引っ越したから、別の時計屋さんが入ったんだ？

ミチコ: うん。すごい人柄が良くて、とにかく信頼してて。その人が突然うちに来て、売ってくれって言うから、いいですよってなったんだけど、結局、信託銀行に入れて、信託銀行の行員さんを入れてそこのうちに行ったら、話が全然違って。自分が買って、セイキョウ（*生協？）に売ろうとしたの。セイキョウは角地だから、セイキョウが買収してたわけ。

ワカ: 土地をね。

ミチコ: うん。それで、やっぱりそういう人。

ワカ: 本人がそこを使うんじゃなくて、ブローカーみたいになりたかったわけ？

ミチコ: そう。

ワカ: 転がしてもうけるってことね。

ミチコ: そう、そういう時代だったから。だから、そういうの二つにはあって、そのときは、すごい立派な人だけども、そうかって。

ワカ: それがバブルの頃？

ミチコ: うん。福島とは違った意味でびっくりした、怖い。

ワカ: 札幌で。

ミチコ: うん、札幌は怖い。多分、信託銀行のノウハウしっかりしてる行員が一緒に行っ10たから、全部、分かっちゃったんで、すごい気まずい顔をしてた。うちがセイキョウに売る
んじゃなくて、時計屋さんに貸してた人がうちから買って、転がすの、セイキョウに。

ワカ: 利鞘を稼ぐってことでしょう、その人が。

ミチコ: これにはもう相手を感情も何もなかった、お金ってこういうことなんだって、すごい感心した。矢吹の返すのほうがね、小汚いなと。

ワカ: まだ分かりやすいよね。

ミチコ: あんな町中でみんなでがっちり組んでやってるのとは、個人は。すごい、だから
人もお金って怖い。

ワカ: 矢吹の町中でがっちり組んでっていうのは？

ミチコ: だって、その賭け事で 100 万がないから買ってくれって言った人は、代々そこに住んでるもんで。農業委員だって代々そこにいるんだもん。

ワカ: だからもう。

ミチコ: 町中、ちっちゃい町だもん。

ワカ: 何て言ったらいいの、グルになれるっていうこと？

ミチコ: うん。悪いなんて思ってないもん、悪いのはうちだもんって、勝手に。

ワカ: 悪いわけじゃないよね。

ミチコ: 返してくれないんだからって感じ。

ワカ: 村のロジックみたいな。

ミチコ: そう。町中でしっかり組んじゃったの。だけど、なぜか法律に疎いらしくて、弁護士が入って。

ワカ: いってみれば、うちはよそ者だからね。

11ミチコ: うん。だから、向こうの論理は正しいでしょう。

ワカ: うん、村のロジックからいったら、そうだよね。

ミチコ: 返せってことよね。

ワカ: だって代々うちの土地なのに、よその人が持ってっちゃった。

ミチコ: うん。ばくちで有名な人なんだけどな、遊び人で酒飲みで。分かんない、お金って人を変える。いや、本性が出る。だから卑しい自分も見るし、相手の卑しさも見るし。あの頃、40 代だったのかな、30 代だったのかな、すごい学んだ、お金のことに。そんなことあったの、今、思い出した。すごいな。

ワカ: それがバブルの経験？

ミチコ: そう、すごい時代だったの。だって、銀行行ったって 7 パーセントにしますか、
8 パーセントにしますかって、行員が私と交渉するんだもん。

ワカ: それは貯金？

ミチコ: 貯金、定期預金。
「じゃあ、7 でいきましょう」、「何年間？」、「2 年間？ 1 年間？」って、そういう時代だった、バブルね。すごかったな。でも、その元のお金は両親が炭鉱で、進駐軍から流れてきた時計を直して売って、資産をつくってくれたから。だから、お金は十分にあったの。

ワカ: お父さんの稼いだお金というよりは、おじいちゃんとおばあちゃんが時計屋さんでためたお金？

ミチコ: そう。お金使うことを知らない人なの、地味で。

ワカ: 2 人はね、おじいちゃんとおばあちゃん。

ミチコ: うん。だから、ただ残るだけ。だから、親族からお金がないって言ったらいつも貸してきて、返ってこないって 2 人で言ってた。それで返せって言うんでもないし、ああい
うのいいよね。そんな思想だ、お金ってすごいことだ、あの頃、学んだ。そうだよね。とか、

12

兄の話はいいか。

ワカ: じゃあ、伯父さんの話をしてください。

ミチコ: 兄は。

ワカ: だってアッコちゃんは、私たちに付いてたわけでしょう？

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: 福島も神奈川も。伯父ちゃんはどうなったの？ ユタカ伯父ちゃん。結婚してたよね？ 私が生まれたとき。

ミチコ: 結婚して、札幌で所帯持ってた。商売がうまくいってないような、いってたような。いってないんだ、毎月 20 万円ずつ送ってたもんな、あの当時で。

ワカ: 送金してたんだ？ おじいちゃんとおばあちゃんが送金した？

ミチコ: 私たちが。

ワカ: お母さんたちが 20 万送ってたの？ 毎月。

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: どこから？ 福島？

ミチコ: そう。だっておばあちゃんもおじいちゃんもお金使わないし、私たちもあんまり使わないから。藤沢の職場に来たときは、古い校舎があって、その校舎の昔でいう小使室っていう所があって、そこは全部ただなの。電話も電気も、全部。要するに全部ただ。何とか費は一切、かかんなかった。

ワカ: 光熱費がかかんない？

ミチコ:

光熱費、かからないから。だって、税金くるわけじゃないし。兄の嫁さんから、子どもができた、おろすから幾ら送れとか、そういう電話がしょっちゅうきてた。やっぱり生活能力なかったんでしょうね、兄に。その奥さんが夜、勤めに行って、そこでとっても優13

しい人と出会って、兄は離婚届出された。これも話したわね。

ワカ: 出されたんだ。

ミチコ: うん、離婚届もう出されてた。

ワカ: 本人、気が付かないところで署名、捺印されて出されてたんだ。

ミチコ: それで私が出向いて、しょうがないねって感じで。役所に行って、生活保護申請
したの、私。

ワカ: それは、もう私たちが神奈川に住んでたとき？

ミチコ: そうだよね。その頃、日記付けてなかったからね。

ワカ: でも、もうむつ愛に住んでたとき？ 私たちが。

ミチコ: そう、7 号館に。

ワカ: 日大の 7 号館。

ミチコ: そう。話は前後するけど、いろいろ思い出すと、楽しい。

ワカ: いろいろあるね。

ミチコ: 楽しい。

ワカ: そのとき、伯父ちゃんはもうアルコール依存症？

ミチコ: うん。もう離婚になってからは精神病院に入って、話したと思うけど、歩道橋に登って、チョウがいるっつってそこから落ちて、大けがして入院したりとか。でも、死ななかった、よかった。

ワカ: チョウがいるっていうのは幻視みたいな？

ミチコ: うん、アル中の症状。生活保護を受けてるから、私たちの経済的負担はまるっき

14りなくなった。国のほうで。

ワカ: それで、送金しなくてよくなった？

ミチコ:

うん。だからそれは随分、楽だった。でも、何かといえばすぐ入院させられて、ホテルみたいな部屋に入ってたりね。

ワカ: 生活保護費。

ミチコ: 生活保護、全部、出るから。

ワカ: 入院費とか。

ミチコ: 「すごいじゃん」とかって私が言うと、「俺もうちに帰りたいよ」っていつも嘆いてた。だけど、おとなしいから言われるがままなの。

ワカ: おとなしいもんね、伯父さん。

ミチコ: だからそれは、月に 1 回ぐらいは妹と行ったり、私が行ったり、兄には会いに行ってた。

ワカ: 北海道？

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: 結構、北海道、行ってたんだ、じゃあ。

ミチコ: 行ってた。だっておじいちゃん、おばあちゃんいるから、子どもの心配はないから。

ワカ: だから私たち、あんまり気が付いてなかったんだ、お母さんが札幌行ったりしてるの。

ミチコ: そうか。何回か危篤があって、妹と行って、死なないでって、行くまでは息あってよね、とかって言いながら、雪道転びながら病院行ったらまだ生きてたって感じのことが
1、2 回あったかな。そうだ、そんなことあったんだ。でも、兄はおばさんの経営するアパ15

ートに住んでたのね。

ワカ: おばさんは、どういう関係だっけ？

ミチコ: 私の父の妹が資産家で、ビルとか幾つか持ってて。その一つにアパートで、そのアパートに住まわせてもらって。もちろん、家賃。

ワカ: 払って？

ミチコ: うん、生活保護から出てるから。だけど、なんかアパート地主から大事にされてた。おかずだよ、とか持ってきてもらってたり、とっても幸せそうだった。その大家は、いとこ。おばさんの旦那さんが亡くなったから、遺産相続して、その遺族が。

ワカ: それはお母さんたちのいとこに当たる人ってこと？

ミチコ: そうだね、妹の子どもだから。その人が経営してたね。その人が、そのアパートと土地をもらったのね、遺産相続で。アパートの住人に、「もう税金ばかり持っていかれても嫌になっちゃう」って嘆いたんですって、そのいとこが私に言うには。そうしたら住人が、「あんた、こんなでっかな土地とこんな家持ってて、そんなことを私らに言えるかい？」って言ったんだって。

ワカ: 誰が？

ミチコ: 住人が。

ワカ: 住人がね。

ミチコ: 生活保護を受けてる人がほとんどだったの。ああ、現実っていいよね。そういう話って本当にいいよね。

ワカ: リアル。

ミチコ: ねえ。それで、叱られたんだと。そのときはすごい複雑だったって。しょうがな
いじゃん、と思ったんだって。ひどいよね。

ワカ: そうだね。

16ミチコ: 兄が危篤っていってそのアパートに行ったときは、兄のベッドの下がもう、ふん尿かなんかで腐ってて、そこから黒い虫がわんわん湧いてた。それでアパートの住人たちがみんな、全部、始末してくれた。ごみもすごかったんだけど、総出で。すごかった、あれ。

ワカ: まだ亡くなってなくて、動けなくなってたんでしょう？

ミチコ: うん、危なかった。あれ、和佳、連れて行ったかな。

ワカ: 確かそのとき私と天音は、ドアに近寄らないように言われて、外で遊んでたんだと思う。

ミチコ: 連れてったよね。

ワカ: 伯父ちゃん生きてて。

ミチコ: 連れてったよね。

ワカ: 本人は、このお金で西友ですし買ってきなさいって言ったっていう日でしょう。

ミチコ: 死に掛かってた。

ワカ: 死に掛かってたんですね。とにかく臭いがすごいから、私たちは入らないように言われたって覚えてる。

ミチコ: 病気になるもんね。

ワカ: 天音ちっちゃかったしね、まだ。

ミチコ: うん。だからやっぱりあの頃、お金いっぱいあったの、私たちも。

ワカ: 私たちだって、ぞろぞろ行けるぐらいお金あったってことだもんね。

ミチコ: おじいちゃん、おばあちゃんのお金。夫が日本大学に戻ったときに、その 7 号に住んでたときに、父が。

17ワカ: ななごうしゃ（7 号舎）にね。

ミチコ: ななごうかん（7 号）館って言ったほうが。

ワカ: 7 号館だね、7 号館に住んでたとき。

ミチコ: あのとき父は用務員で働いてて、非常勤なのに正規と同じボーナスも年金も。

ワカ: 太っ腹だね、日本大学。

ミチコ: 今もそうでしょう、非常勤なのに全部出てる。母は、日大の食堂に入ってた業者に使われてて。やっぱりパートじゃあ正規の人に小ばかにされるから、あんな、50（歳）だか 60（歳）なのに調理師の免許を取っちゃった。

ワカ: 覚えてる。

ミチコ: 勝ち気だね。

ワカ: うん。

ミチコ: あと、本当に勉強をしたい人だから、私を無理に大学入れたぐらいだもんね。それで、パートだったけど、結構、いい給料で。というか 2 人働いてて、全部、私たちによこしたから。だから、そりゃあお金、余ってはいないけど、バブル経験したってことは、やっぱりかなり大きいよね。

ワカ: バブルのうちの経験は、バブルのとき、何か増やした？

ミチコ: 株とか買ってたな。でも、何買ったって、あのときは誰でももうかったから。

ワカ: でも、もうけるって、安く買って高く売るってことをしないと、もうからないじゃん。

ミチコ: 株を買って。

ワカ: 株を買って、株で切り抜けたんだ。じゃあ。

18

ミチコ: そう。あと、例えばソニーの何とか保険に入るでしょう。そうすると 100 万だと、5 年間で 150 万戻ってくるの。

ワカ: 解約するのね。保険入って、5 年後、解約。

ミチコ: 解約しなくても、2 年だったかな、5 年だったかな。5 年なんてあっという間じゃない。

ワカ: そうか、それは満期が 5 年？

ミチコ: 確かそうだったと思う。そういうので結構、堅実な方法でお金はすごいたまったのね。大体、両親がすごい働いて、ずっと資産あったから。

ワカ: とにかく働き者で、使わない人たちだった。

ミチコ: うん。で、セイキョウに家も売ったでしょう。だからお金はもう、潤沢だったよね。

ワカ: 家は現金で買ったの？

ミチコ: そう。

ワカ: ローンを組んでない？

ミチコ: どの家？

ワカ: 長後の家？

ミチコ: 長後の家は 1600 万ローン組んだら、ローンの明細を母に見せたら、（支払いが）
何倍になるんだっけ、10 倍ぐらいになるの？

ワカ: 分かんないけど、当時の、そうだよね。

ミチコ: たった 1600 万借りたのが、最後、すごいんだよね。

ワカ: 当時の金利は、今より高いね。

19ミチコ: うん、住宅ローンで。それを見て母がびっくりして、全額払ってくれた。だけど、うちの人とかそういうの全然、つつかれなかったの。不思議ね、贈与税とか。

ワカ: すごい贈与だよね。

ミチコ: うん、緩かったのね。だから現金で買ったの、1800 万の家。当時 1800 万っつったらすごいことで。

ワカ: そうだよね。

ミチコ: だけど駅から 5 分ってことはすごい気に入ったけど、私たちのあれでは買えなか
ったね、年収では。

ワカ: そうしたら？

ミチコ: 見に行った前日に 200 万落としてたのね、売れなくて。

ワカ: 値段を。

ミチコ: 当時、1800（万）なんてすごいお金だから、売れなくて、落としてて。落とした次の日に私たちが見に行って、これじゃあ何とか買えるねって言って。お金を落としたときに、売り主が、私たちの前で大げんかしてた。
「おまえが、売れないから落とせって言った」、「いや、あなたでしょう」とかって、すごかった。

ワカ: またお金のリアルを見た。

ミチコ: 見た、すごかった。でも、私たち単独でものはできないから、全部、今まで何か
お金のことに関しては、銀行員とか弁護士に入ってもらってたから、そういうことには巻き込まれなかった。やっぱり専門入れるって、助かった。お金もかかったけど。そう、お金のリアルをいっぱい見てきた、バブルで。そんなことあったな。いっぱいあるよね。
札幌の家を売ったときに、仲介に入った銀行員がアパートをやったりしてて、アパートと家を長後に建てたの、同じ敷地にね。そのときに、まだお金があったから。

ワカ: それは、その銀行員さんがそうしてるのを見て、自分たちも長後の家買ったときに。

20

ミチコ: 銀行員の助言で。

ワカ: 助言で。

ミチコ: その敷地にアパートを建てた。

ワカ: 銀行員さんの助言で建てた。

ミチコ: うん。札幌で付き合ってた銀行員の人が。

ワカ: 札幌でお世話になった銀行員さんの助言で、うちに母屋とアパート建てた？

ミチコ: そう。まだお金があったから、本鵠沼の駅から 3 分の所に家を買ったの、古い家。
だけど、そこを借りた人が不動産屋で、家賃全然払わないし、ごまかしでお金入んなかった
りして。その不動産屋を紹介してくれた人に、不動産屋に言いに行ったら、その不動産屋さんに、「あなた早稲田出て立派な不動産屋なのに、どうしてそんなけちな目にするんだ」って。その人、お坊さんなの、不動産屋さん。結局、返してもらったの、その家を。だから、お坊さんに助けられたり、銀行員に助けられたり、弁護士に助けられたり。

ワカ: ちょっと待って、そのお坊さんの不動産の人っていうのは、借りてた人？ 鵠沼の家を。

ミチコ: ううん、紹介してくれた人。

ワカ: 紹介してくれた人が、お坊さんで不動産。お坊さんで不動産の人が、別のその人に？

ミチコ: うん、自分の仕事仲間に。

ワカ: もう一人の不動産？

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: 両方とも不動産。借りてた人も不動産で、頼んだ人も、もちろん不動産屋さん。この間に入った人が、不動産でお坊さん。返さなかった人が、早稲田（大学）出た不動産。

ミチコ: うん。すごくそのお坊さんがね、家賃を払わない不動産屋さんにすごく言ったん

21

だって。

ワカ: 結局、その貸してた家を賃貸契約やめたと？

ミチコ: うん。その人もまた、売ろうとしたのね。

ワカ: その人が買って売りたいって言ってて。

ミチコ: うん。お坊さんに助けられて。お坊さんってあの人、ミカちゃん。

ワカ: ミカちゃんだ、分かった。

ミチコ: すごいきついんですよ、だって彼、正義感が強くて。だからお金にまつわることはいっぱいやってきた。もういいわって思うけど。

ワカ: ミカちゃんのお父さんか。

ミチコ: うん、すごい正義感強いじゃん。お金、あったね。だから、ここの家なんか貸す
なっていうのは、そういう意味なの。

ワカ: 今、住んでる家ね。

ミチコ: ここの家ね。貸すのっていろんなことをまつわる。運良くいってるし、いっぱいいるけど。あと、税金とかもね。そういうことをした。今度は何を思い出したらいいのかな？

ワカ: 10 分ぐらいあるから福島の話かな、きょう 3 月 11 日だし。

ミチコ: ああ。長女が一人親で東京で働いているから、孫はほとんど私たち夫婦が見てた
んだけども、ほとんどっていうか、全部、見てて。孫が 9 歳のときに、地震に遭ったの。

ワカ: 東日本大震災？

ミチコ: 東日本大震災。私、港の見える丘公園でお手洗い入ってたら、なんかぐらっとす
るから外に出たら、目まいかなと思ったら、街灯がガッシャンガッシャンって感じに揺れてて、みんな、きゃあ、わあっつって地面に伏せたって感じで。それで孫が学校から、公園の真ん前の学校だから学校から出てきて、市営バスに乗って。市営バスが揺れながらも、市営

22

地下鉄の駅に無事に着いたんだけど、駅が人であふれかえってて。会社とうちも全部、解放されてて。電話、どこにかけても携帯は通じないし、公衆電話は通じたけど長蛇の列でかけられないし。じゃあ電車が下に止まってるから、そこに孫と 2 人で行ったんだけど、様子が大変だと思って孫にコンビニでお弁当を買ってきてもらって、電車の中でお昼残した自分の、天音のご飯を、孫のご飯を孫に食べさせたり、コンビニのお弁当を食べたりって過ごしてたんだけども。
3 時？ 4 時？ 3 時 46 分だっけ。山ほど人がいたのに、だんだん人がいなくなって、歩いて帰ろうかって地上に上がったら、ドッスンドッスンって人がものすごい歩いてて。周りの人に止められて、歩いて帰るにしたって停電になってるから、また地下にもぐって待ってたんだけど、結局、何回も余震で電車がぐらぐらって動いて、「危険だからホームに出てください」って駅員さんが来て。ホームのベンチに座ってて。ぎっしりいたのが、7 時、8 時、
9 時になったらだんだん人がいなくなって、6 人ぐらいになって。その 6 人、10 人ぐらいいたのかな、その中で家族が迎えにくるとか何とかって話あったりして。2 組の人が「あなたたちはどこ？」って言うから、「藤沢」って言ったら、「じゃあ、どっちか先に来たほうが送ります」って話し合いがついて。

ワカ: 車が。

ミチコ: 全然知らない人なのに。要するに、先に来た人に乗せてもらったの、車。だから、
もう 10 時か 11 時だったと思う。

ワカ: 夜？

ミチコ: うん。真っ暗なのね、停電だから。だけど、信号が真っ暗なのに、5 差路になってる信号でも、上手にブーブーもいわないで、警報も鳴らさないで、みんな上手に、すごかった、譲り合いって。普段ぎすぎすしてるはずなんだけど、あの混雑だと。でも、すごいルールをきっちり守って、真っ暗な中で、街灯も何もないからさ。うちまで送ってもらった、
すごいびっくりして。名前聞いたんだけど、もう忘れちゃったんだけど、でも、お礼するものもないから、孫が産まれたときにみんなに配ったハンカチに、お礼のお砂糖を入れてお渡ししたの。ちょっと汚れてたかな、よく分かんないけど、レースのハンカチお渡しして。す
ごい助かった。すごいな、ああいうの、無条件で助けてくれるのね。
何日かして電車に乗ったら、孫を学校に、地下鉄で送ってたときに、そのときにいた人が声を掛けてくれて。あらって感じで、なんか旧知の仲って感じでとってもよかった。人って、全然、知らん顔して電車に乗って、知らん顔して歩いてるけど、一致団結よ、困ったときって。だから、全然、うろたえなかったもんね、私も孫も。あんなときって普通。

23

ワカ: 全然、パニックじゃなかった？

ミチコ: 私の性格だと、落ち着きないからすごい慌てると思うんだけど、2 人とも落ち着いてて。孫は特に落ち着いてるからね。あの子が、わあわあ泣き叫んだりしないから、9 歳だったってこともあるけど。でも、その後で聞いたら、早く帰れなかった人が学校に泊まったりとか、大変だったみたい。だから私たちが助けられたね、市営バスに乗って、地下鉄の駅行って。あれはすごいことだった。地震がすごいっていうよりも、人の気持ちがすごかった。

ワカ: すごくそれはよかったっていうか、親切だったとか、そういう？

ミチコ: うん、あんなにやってくれるもんだなと思って。私も多分そうするんでしょうね、
その立場、逆になったら。でも車の運転もないし、何もないから。助け合うって。本当はもっとばたばた恐怖。だって地上に出たら、あっちがガスかなんか分かんないけど、ばあっと火の手が上がったりとか。

ワカ: 火の手が上がってた？

ミチコ: うん。

ワカ: 遠く？

ミチコ: そう。本当は怖いはずなのに、遠くだからぴんとこないのよ、突然きたことだから。それで連絡、全然つかないんだけど、地下鉄のホームで家に連絡しても、連絡できないし。娘は出張してて帰る、それで心配してかけてきた。それは通じたのね。

ワカ: 不思議よね、私の電話が通じたって。

ミチコ: 遠くのは通じたんだって。

ワカ: フィリピンからかけても通じたよね。

ミチコ: それもあって、孫が落ち着いてたんだと思う。やっぱり親からくるっていうのは。
全然、怖がらないで、窓で絵を描いたりしてた、お絵描きとかっつって。寒いから、まだ 3月。

24ワカ: ああ、窓。

ミチコ: うん。いろんなことあったわね。

ワカ: 窓が白くなる、寒いから。そこに指で絵描いてた？

ミチコ: 描いてた。あのときに、天音が頂いたあめとかおいしかったみたい。

ワカ: 周りの人から？

ミチコ: うん、いろんなものを。

ワカ: いろんなもの、もらった？

ミチコ: 結構、年寄りってあめ持ってるのね。それから、ずっとあめは荷物の中に入れてる。

ワカ: 持ってる？ なんかあったらあめあげようと思って？

ミチコ: あと、やっぱり充電器も。この頃、出掛けないから持たないんだけど、あれからしばらくは充電器、持って歩いてた。充電はどこでもいいですよって感じだったから。でも、みんないい人になっちゃうの、災害って。だけど、命からがらだったら結局、そうならないから、究極の困難には陥らなかったのね。そこで終わってた。自分の醜さとかそういうのを見ないで、善意だけ見て済んだ、3 月 11 日が。大変だったって感覚、今もないわ。(人びとに)良くしてもらったなっていう感覚が残ってる。

ワカ: うん、残ってる。

ミチコ: ちょうどいいぐらいじゃ？

ワカ: じゃあ、これできょうは終わります。ありがとうございました。
(了)25

Michiko's Life - Narrative of the 4th Interview2
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Monday, March 12, 2024, 12:46-13:39 Interview with MichikoInterviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Yes, please start.
Michiko: We were living in Sapporo, and then a professor from my husband's university contacted
him and said that he was going to establish a training/vocational school for engineers in Fukushima
and asked him to work there. We moved to a place called Yabuki in Fukushima, where there was abarracks and an airfield that had been used during the war. The barracks there were vacant, and at first,
Tomoo moved and lived there alone, and he taught mechanical engineering and other subjects tostudents. After six months, I went to Fukushima many times with my family, my parents, and myeldest daughter, who was 3 or 2 years old, but it was cold. It was cold, and I was afraid to go to thebathroom because it was cold outside, so I let her pee in the room and her pee froze in the tub.
Then, we all moved together and my first son was born there. I put my first son to sleep in a baby
carriage, and my eldest daughter stood by my side while I went shopping and took walks, but I wasoften afraid of wild dogs and took the long way home. My eldest daughter also loved umbrellas andrubber boots, and she loved to twirl them around on the big playground outside, where no one wasaround.
It was also interesting to hear her say that the barracks were old and full of holes, and that she put
our family's rings, our rings, diamond rings, coral, and other important things in the holes, lest we losethem.
2Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy. Highlighted

portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author would like to thank Michiko,the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan and Prof. Christian Pasion of Ateneo de Davao
University for their advice in starting this study; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the Shirokane-Takanawa Counseling
Room; Dr. Dan Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr. Reiko Kuroda of the Universityof Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.

26

We also bought an persimmon tree from a farmer and harvested the persimmons to make driedpersimmons. The dried persimmons were beautiful. My parents sent them to their acquaintances andrelatives in Hokkaido, and they were always pleased. Water was pumped by a pump. I wonder if it
was a well.
Waka: Pump it?
Michiko: Also, my one-year-old son often ran out in the cold, and his feet swelled up with frostbite,and I thought they were going to rot. That's about it. We went shopping by train to a place called
Koriyama.
Waka: Is this where you lived, Yabuki?
Michiko: Yes. The training school was closed, and he was transferred to work at a junior college inFujisawa, Kanagawa Prefecture. He was teaching agricultural engineering.
Waka: My father.
Michiko: Yes. As he gradually found it was difficult for him to find a place to fit in at the university,
he went to a computer school at Fujitsu at night after work and studied there for one year, then for two
years to get a certification, and then he opened a laboratory for information processing at a juniorcollege. I think it was a great effort. After all, he didn't have the most necessary academic backgroundat university.
Waka: My father.
Michiko: Yeah. So I think he was bullied a lot. But I feel sorry for him because he was bound to do itfor himself and his family. But there was no one to process the information, so he was able to find aplace at the university. So, although he had no qualifications, he was able to present papers abroad andaccumulate various achievements. But he was hardly recognized within the university. At that time,
there were very few people who presented papers abroad. Then, there was a professor who graduatedfrom the University of Tokyo, a famous professor.
Waka: I don't know.
Michiko: He met this professor in Indonesia who took an interest in his studies and asked him to write27

a dissertation under his guidance.
Waka: Doctor of Agriculture?
Michiko: Agricultural science, yes, so he could become a doctor. But he wasn't very happy, but he was
happy to be recognized. Soon after that, he retired with a sense of security. Do you want me to talkmore about Yabuki?
Waka: Now, time went by much faster, didn't it? Let me get this straight: We moved to Yabuki. We left
there because that engineering school was closed, and we moved to Kanagawa Prefecture. He taught
agricultural engineering, mechanical engineering?, mechanical engineering, all of this, my father.
When did hego to that information processing school?
Michiko: I can't remember.
Waka: How old was I?
Michiko: After we moved to Chogo.
Waka: If you moved to Chogo, that means I am already above elementary school age.
Michiko: I'll ask. More details about that.
Waka: He got his Ph.D., right around the time I got my Ph.D.?
Michiko: It was late (in his career).
Waka: Quite a bit. When I got my Ph.D…..
Michiko: He was just about to retire.
Waka: Right. So.
Michiko: But it was good, though he wasn't that happy.
Waka: Yeah, (year) 2000, I'll look into it later.

28

Michiko: Really?
Waka: Yeah. I myself took it in what year was it, two thousand, 2002?
Michiko: (*she took out of a tray from the cupboard)
Waka: okay, I’ll go upstairs later and check it.
Michiko: It says "Degree Commemoration. (on the tray)
Waka: That's a degree commemorative tray. Don't worry, we have his doctoral dissertation upstairs, so
I can see what year he got it, and I can search his dissertation. But that means you were impressedwith my father’s career path. So, the story is that you moved here with your father, so to speak. That's
the story, isn't it?
Michiko: So, I was being fed by my parents, but before I knew it, Tomoo-san was feeding me.
Waka: You’re saying that it was first your parents but it is now my father…..
Michiko: Yes. He very lucky. Because there were many people who were educated. So the professor
who took him in said to me, "Your husband is not an educated man, so he won't get ahead," and I said,"Oh, I see," and he said, "I don't mean I see, it's a big deal," and I said, "Oh, I understand," and he got
angry. That's ridiculous. That's the kind of bullying I'm talking about.
Waka: Bullying.
Michiko: Yes. But I am a coal miner's daughter, so I don't know much about status or careeradvancement, so I think it's great to be a university teacher without those things.
Waka: Great?
Michiko: Yes. Because I come from that kind of environment, I'm from a different world. Doctors oruniversity professors belong to a different world. Come to think of that, those professionals are notspecial; they are just people like us. Bullying is everywhere.

29

Waka: Yes, there is.
Michiko: He bullied his wife because though he bullied her husband, he would not respond.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: Okay, let's talk a little more about Yabuki. We know how my father spent his time in Yabuki,
but what did you, Mom, do?
Michiko: Raising my two children was difficult. My younger son, my oldest son, was weak and often
had a fever of about 40 degrees Celsius, had acrotonitis, had a stomach bug, and was sick a lot. Yet,
he was very wild and energetic.
Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: That's why it was so hard to chase him around. There were stray dogs outside, and it was
dangerous to go out without permission. He was a very curious boy. There was a bathroom surroundedby trees, and I had to remove his poops floating in the tub, and I had to change the water in the tub
many times.
Waka: When he was a baby.
Michiko: He was cute, the child.
Waka: Wait a minute, what do you mean by a bath surrounded by trees? Do you mean a wooden
bath?
Michiko: Yes, not cypress, just wood.
Waka: wood?
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: you don't mean that there are trees around?

30

Michiko: The tub is wood.
Waka: You mean there was a bath where the tub was made of wood?
Michiko: Yes. Everything including the bottom is wood. Those were the days of wood.
Waka: It was all wood down there, too, the wood days, the wood baths.
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: So you can take a bath and not get burned?
Michiko: Hmm? The bath heater?
Waka: Sorry, I don't really understand how it works, the bath in those days.
Michiko: I think we used to boil the water in the bathtub from the heater outside the house.
Waka: The tub is wood.
Michiko: Yes. I was, wasn't I? When that baby was born, when I was in the hospital, before, when I
came, hmm? When I had contractions, I had to go to the bathroom because I had a bowel movement,
but they said, “Hurry up, the head is already coming out," and I went to the delivery room.
Waka: Keep talking (*Waka went to the kitchen to blow her nose)
Michiko: When he was born, all the doctors opened the windows at once. They opened the windows
for a while, and it was cold. They gave me a candy saying, "You must be hungry.” Now that I think
about it, I think I pooped.
WAKA: When you gave birth?
Michiko: Yes. I think that's why they opened all the windows. I'm sure I did. Because I had a bowel
movement like that. With my first child, I was first given an enema, because it was a university hospital.

31

Waka: It was the very first thing they gave you before delivery.
Michiko: Yes, it was a hospital attached to a university, so it must be done in a certain way. But I guessrural hospitals are not so good.
Waka: Didn't they give you an enema or something?
Michiko: I am not sure. I gave birth to a child covered in feces, I'm sure.
Waka: I don't know, but I guess it was.
Michiko: I didn’t ask them then. When I came to see the baby, my eldest daughter said it was cute andwouldn't leave the room. While the baby and I spent the whole week in the hospital, she came every
day and cried every time when she left.
Waka: I'm sorry (*blowing her nose)
Michiko: "Baby, I'm not leaving," she cried, yes she was.
Waka: Keep talking(*going to the kitchen to blow her nose)
Michiko: Your baby was so cute.
(Silence)
Waka: So you were a housewife.
Michiko: Also, I had a big tummy, and when I was pregnant with my younger child, I couldn't movearound and I went to the knitting store with yarn to learn, with my eldest daughter. In front of theknitting machine, she kept singing some unusual songs, dancing, spinning, twirling, I guess she washaving fun. She was so happy when I knitted her a sweater that she wore it all the time, even when it
had holes in it. She wore red boots, a red umbrella, and spun around and around.
Waka: I used to spin, I remember spinning, I do too.
Michiko: Yeah, like this. So I think your feet are deformed because you wear those red shoes even32though they are old. Amane is the same way, right?
Waka: Fingers, you know, feet.
Michiko: True They were two interesting children.
Waka: You went from Yabuki to Koriyama to learn? To the knitting store.
Michiko: No, in the town of Yabuki.
Waka: It's in town.
Michiko: Yes. Grandma and grandpa worked hard to take care of the house. They had a lot of land, sothey cultivated the fields and made all kinds of things. Also, I didn't know what “Gaku-ajisai” (a ofhydrangea) was. I knew that, but there was a hydrangea in the garden, and it wouldn't open all the way,
so I thought it would open next year, but it didn't open the second year either. I asked my husband
about it, and he said, "The flowers are called lacecap hydrangea, and that's the kind of hydrangea. I
had never heard of that kind of hydrangea.
Waka: Yeah, you thought the lacy part of the hydrangea would bloom too.
Michiko: Yes, I'd been waiting for a long time.
Waka: That was the lacecap hydrangea.
Michiko: Yeah, I didn't know that. There was a driver at my husband's workplace, and he was infinancial trouble, so he asked us to buy his 300 square meters. We told him we did not know what wewould do with the land even if we bought it, but he begged us. He said he needed the money urgently
because he lost money gambling. So we bought it for 1 million yen.
Waka: 1 million yen for 300 tsubo?
Michiko: Yes, at that time. Later, after we moved to Fujisawa, he asked us to return it, and we werevery surprised.
Waka: He asked you to give him back the land?

33

Michiko: Yeah, the land we bought. We have all the title deeds. It was like, well, it happened during
the bubble period when the price of land increased many times. I thought, I see his intention (to resell
it for a higher price). I felt bad about that, so I decided to sell it normally, but you know, there areagricultural commissioners and things like that, and you can find out what they do to agricultural land
to make it into residential land.
Waka: Yeah, I'll look into it.
Michiko: Without some kind of permit from this agricultural something, you can never sell it.
Waka: That was farmland, 300 tsubo.
Michiko: Yes. So I guess the land was of no use, but even such land had value during the bubble
economy. At that time, I thought his suggestion on the transaction was unreasonable and strange, andI did not understand why the agricultural commissioner was against it, what are you talking about? So,
I got a lawyer, and I just put in a written statement, and the permit was easily granted.
Waka: Sold?
Michiko: Yeah. There was a greedy feeling, yes, I guess it was a greedy feeling. It was kind of
unreasonable.
Waka: Who was greedy, the other party?
Michiko: Both, they were greedy and we were greedy, too. I mean I don't want to see that. I was angry
that I was asked to return it as a matter of course, but I didn't justify it, I didn't return it because I was
feeling greedy, too.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: He told us to return it for one million yen. But isn’t it greedy his saying return it.
Waka: He was offering you one million yen and he wants you to return it?
Michiko: Yeah.

34

Waka: I see, so you thought the price should be higher.
Michiko: Because we were in the middle of the bubble economy.
Waka: I see, both sides (were greedy).
Michiko: Both are greedy. Then, when I was in that bubble, it was really interesting. That was what
happened to our land in Fukushima, and thanks to the lawyer, the problem was solved immediately.
There was another story about our house in Sapporo. When we lived there, there were our shop, awatch shop, and a ramen shop at the first floor, and some apartments at the second floor.
Waka: a ramen shop and a watch shop, and the watch shop is our store?
Michiko: Yes, we rented out the second floor, three rooms. Then one day, during the same bubble(economy), the person who rented the space for the watch shop suddenly came to us and asked us tosell it.
Waka: You said you want to rent it to a watchmaker, but isn't the watchmaker our store?
Michiko: Because we moved out there.
WAKA: So you moved out and another watchmaker came in?
Michiko: Yes. He was a very nice person, and we just trusted him. He suddenly came to our house andasked us to sell it to him, so we said okay, but in the end, we took him to a trust bank, and when we
went to his house there with a trust bank employee, the story was totally different. He would but it andtry to sell it to Seikyo (*coop?). Seikyo was buying it because it was a corner lot.
Waka: The land.
Michiko: Yeah. So, you know, that's the kind of person.
Waka: So he didn't want to use it there, he wanted to be like a broker?
Michiko: Yes.

35

Waka: So he wanted to resell it for a profit.
Michiko: Yes, that was the time. So there were two of those things, and at that time, even though he
was a very respectable person, I thought, "Oh, really?”
Waka: That was during the bubble period?
Michiko: Yes. I was surprised and scared in a different sense from the Fukushima’s case.
Waka: In this Sapporo’s case.
Michiko: Yes, this Sapporo’s case is scary. This person looked very embarrassed when we visited him
with the banker with the trust bank’s know-how, and found what it was all about. We would not sell
the land to Seikyo, but this person renting the space for his watch shop would buy it from us and resell
it to Seikyo.
Waka: You mean, he was trying to make a profit.
Michiko: I had no more feelings or anything for this person, and I was very impressed with whatmoney means. I was more impressed with the Yabuki's case, the person told us to “return it”, which I
thought was a dirty way of doing things.
Waka: It's still easy to understand, though.
Michiko: Individuals are embedded in the town where everyone is related to one another so tightly.
That's why I am afraid of people and money.
Waka: What does it mean a tight-knit group in the town of Yabuki?
Michiko: Because the person who said buy it because he lost one million gambling belongs to those
who lived there for generations. Even the agricultural commissioner has been there for generations.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: The entire villagers united together. It is such a small town.

36

Waka: What can I say, everyone if complicit.
Michiko: Yes. They never think they are wrong. We are wrong.
Waka: You are not wrong.
Michiko: They don’t understand why we would not return the land.
Waka: It’s like a logic of the village.
Michiko: Yes. It is like all the villagers were working together. But for some reason, they didn't seemto be familiar with the law, so when a lawyer came in….
Waka: In a way, we are outsiders.
Michiko: Yeah. So the logic over there would be correct.
Waka: Yeah, according to the logic of the village.
Michiko: They say, “return it to us”.
Waka: Because it has been our land for generations, but someone else took it.
Michiko: Yes. He's famous for his gambling, his playfulness, and his drinking. I don't know. Moneychanges people. No, it reveals their true nature. So I see my lowly self and I see their lowly self. At
that time, I was in my 40s, maybe 30s, I learned a lot about money. I remember that now. That'samazing.
Waka: That's your experience with the bubble economy?
Michiko: Yes, it was a great time. When I went to the bank, they would negotiate with me, asking if I
wanted 7 percent or 8 percent.
Waka: Is that savings?

37

Michiko: Savings, fixed deposit. “Let's go with 7 then.", "For how many years?" "Two years? One
year?” That was the era, the bubble. It was amazing. But the original capital came from my parents,
who worked in the coal mines, and they made assets by repairing and selling clocks that had comefrom the Occupation Forces. So we had enough money.
Waka: Rather than the money my father earned, is it the money my grandfather and grandmother saved
at the watch shop?
Michiko: Yes. They don’t know how to spend money.
Waka: The two of them, you know, Grandpa and Grandma.
Michiko: Yeah. So it just accumulates. So when relatives approach and they say they have no money,
they would lend money to them, and they say that they would never return it, but they would not ask
them to return it. I think that’s nice. That's a kind of thought, money is a great thing, I learned it backthen. That's right. Well, shall we talk about my brother or not?
Waka: Okay, tell me about your uncle.
Michiko: My brother was…..
Waka: Because Akko-chan (*Michiko’s younger sister) was with us, right?
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: (Akko-chan came with us to )Fukushima and Kanagawa. What happened to your uncle?
Uncle Yutaka. He was married, right? When I was born.
Michiko: He was married and had a family in Sapporo. His business was not going well, but it wasgoing well. We were sending 200,000 yen every month at that time.
Waka: Did you send money? Did Grandma and Grandpa send money?
Michiko: We were.
Waka: You were sending him 200,000? Every month.

38

Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: from where? Fukushima?
Michiko: Yes. Grandma and grandpa don't spend money, and we don't spend much either. When
Tomoo came to work in Fujisawa, there was an old school building, and in that school building, there
was a place called "Kozukai-shitsu", which is a small servant's room in the old days, and everything
there was free. Everything was free, the telephone, electricity, everything. In short, everything was
free. We didn't have to pay for anything.
Waka: no utility bills?
Michiko: We don't have to pay for utilities. We don't have to pay much taxes. My brother's wife would
call me all the time, saying that she had a baby and asking me to send her because she wanted to haveabortion. I guess my brother didn't have the ability to make a living. His wife went to work at night,
met a very kind man there, and she submitted the divorce papers without my brother’s knowing. I told
you about this too.
Waka: That’s what happened.
Michiko: Yes, the divorce papers were already served.
Waka: It was signed and sealed and sent out without him noticing.
Michiko: So I went to the city hall and applied for welfare (for him).
Waka: Was that when we were already living in Kanagawa?
Michiko: That's right. I didn't keep a diary at that time.
Waka: But when we were already living in Mutsuai? We were.
Michiko: Yes, in Building 7.
Waka: Building No. 7 of Nihon University.

39

Michiko: Yes. I know this is going back and forth, but it's fun to remember things.
Waka: There are many things.
Michiko: It's fun.
Waka: At that time, your uncle was already an alcoholic?
Michiko: Yes. I think I already told you that after the divorce, he went into a mental hospital, climbed
up on a pedestrian bridge saying a butterfly was flying there, fell off the bridge, and was hospitalizedwith serious injuries. But he didn't die, thank God.
Waka: So he was saying there's a butterfly, like an apparition?
Michiko: Yeah, symptoms of alcoholism. He was on welfare, so our financial burden was completelygone. The government was taking care of him.
Waka: So you don't have to send money anymore?
Michiko: Yeah. So it was much easier. But whenever something happened, he was immediately
hospitalized, and he was in a room like a hotel.
Waka: Welfare pays it.
Michiko: Welfare pays it all.
Waka: including his hospitalization expenses.
Michiko: When I would say, "That's great," he would always lament, "I want to go home, too. But hewas quiet and did as he was told.
Waka: He was very quiet, Uncle.
Michiko: So that was about once a month, my sister and I would go, or I would go and see my brother.

40

Waka: Hokkaido?
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: You had been to Hokkaido quite a bit, then.
Michiko: Right. Because my grandparents were there, I didn’t have to worry about my children.
Waka: So we didn't really notice, you know, mom going to Sapporo or so.
Michiko: I see. There were a couple of times when he was in critical condition, and I went with mysister and told her not to die and to keep breathing until we got there, and I fell down the snowy roadand went to the hospital, and he was still alive. Oh, yes, that happened. But my brother lived in anapartment owned by my aunt.
Waka: What kind of relationship did you have with your aunt?
Michiko: My father's sister is a wealthy person and owns several buildings. One of them was thatapartment, and he was allowed to live there. Of course, he had to pay rent.
Waka: pay?
Michiko: Yes, he was on welfare. But the landlady took good care of him. She would bring him things
like side dishes, and he seemed very happy. The landlady was my cousin. Her aunt's husband passed
away, so she inherited his estate.
Waka: Does that mean she is your cousin, Mom?
Michiko: Yes, she is a child of my father’s sister's. She was the owner. She got the apartment and theland as inheritance. Once she lamented to one of the renters of the apartment, "I'm sick of having to
pay so much in taxes”. Then the renter responded, "You have such a huge land and such a house, how
can you say such a thing to us?” The cousin said this to me.
Waka: Who?
Michiko: A resident of the apartment.

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Waka: A resident, OK.
Michiko: Most of them were on welfare. Oh, reality is good. Those stories are really good.
Waka: So real.
Michiko: True. So, she was scolded. At that time, she said she was embarrassed. She thought, "I can’t
help it. It's terrible, isn't it?
Waka: Yes, that's right.
Michiko: When I went to the apartment because my brother was in critical condition, I found that his
bed was already rotting with feces and urine, and black worms had sprung up from it. All the people
who lived in the apartment took care of it. There was a lot of garbage, but everyone pitched in. It wasamazing.
Waka: He wasn't dead yet, he was stuck, wasn't he?
Michiko: Yeah, that was close. Oh, Waka, did I take you with me?
Waka: I think Amane and I were playing outside at that time, being told to stay away from the door.
Michiko: I took you there.
Waka: Uncle was still alive.
Michiko: I took you there.
Waka: It must be the day that he said to us, “spend this money to buy sushi at Seiyu.”
Michiko: He was dying.
Waka: He was dying. Anyway, I remember you told us not to go in there because of the smell.
Michiko: It makes you sick.

42

Waka: Amane was still little.
Michiko: Yes. So we had a lot of money at that time.
Waka: That means that we had enough money to go around too, right?
Michiko: Grandma and grandpa's money. When my husband went back to Nihon Unversity, when we
lived in that No. 7, my father was…..
Waka: In the Nanagosha (No. 7 house).
Michiko: You should call it the Nanagokan (No. 7) building.
Waka: Building 7, yes, when we lived in Building 7.
Michiko: At that time, my father was working as a janitor, and even though he was part-time, he got
the same bonus and pension as a regular employee.
Waka: How generous Nihon University was!
Michiko: I'm sure that's still the case; he was part-time, but he was paid full. My mother was used bya vendor who worked in the cafeteria at Nihon University. Because the regular workers looked down
on her, she got a chef's license even though she was 50 or 60 years old.
Waka: I remember.
Michiko: She was strong-minded.
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: Also, she really wanted to study, so she even forced me to go to college. So, although she
was working part-time, she was paid quite well. I mean, they were both working, and they gave it all
to us. So we didn't have a lot of extra money, but it was a big deal to have experienced the bubble
economy.

43

Waka: What was your experience out of the bubble economu, did you increase anything during the
bubble economy?
Michiko: We bought stocks and so on. But no matter what we bought, everyone was making moneyat that time.
Waka: But to make money, you have to buy low and sell high.
Michiko: Like we buy stocks.
Waka: You bought some stocks, and you sold them for higher prices then.
Michiko: Yes. Also, for example, if you buy some kind of insurance from Sony, you can get 1,500,000
yen back in 5 years. If you buy a million yen, you will get 1.5 million yen back in 5 years.
Waka: You cancel it. You buy insurance, five years later, you cancel?
Michiko: Even if you don't cancel, if two years has passed, or maybe five years, five years is not sofast.
Waka: Okay, so it has a maturity of 5 years?
Michiko: I think that's right. So we were able to accumulate a lot of money in a very solid way.
Generally, my parents worked hard and had assets for a long time.
Waka: They were hard workers anyway, and they didn't use money.
Michiko: Yes. And you sold your house to Seikyo. So we had plenty of money.
Waka: Did you buy the house with cash?
Michiko: Yes.
WAKA: You don't have a loan?
Michiko: Which house?

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Waka: Chogo's house?
Michiko: If we took out a 16 million loan for my house in Chogo……when I showed my mother theloan statement, how many times (the payment) would it be, about 10 times?
Waka: I don't know, but at the time, yes.
Michiko: Once we borrow only 16 million, the total payment would be astonishing.
Waka: Interest rates then were higher than now.
Michiko: Yes, with a mortgage. My mother was surprised to see that and paid the entire amount. But
the tax office never came to us. It's strange, gift tax and all.
Waka: no gift tax?
Michiko: No, it was loose. So we bought a house with cash, 18 million yen. At that time, 18 million
was a lot.
Waka: Yes, that's right.
Michiko: But I really liked the fact that it was 5 minutes from the station, but we couldn't afford it with
our income.
Waka: So, what happened?
Michiko: The seller dropped the price by 2 million the day before we went to see it, it didn't sell.
Waka: The price dropped.
Michiko: At the time, 18 million was a lot of money, so they couldn't sell it, so they dropped it. The
next day we went to look at it and said, "Well, we can buy it somehow.” When they dropped the price,
the seller, or the couple, had a big argument in front of us. The husband said, "You told me to drop it
because it wouldn't sell," and the wife responded, "No, it was you.”45

Waka: You saw the reality money could make again.
Michiko: I saw it, it was amazing. But we can't do things on our own, so we've had bankers and alawyer come in to help us with any financial matters, so we didn't get involved in that kind of thing. It
was very helpful to have specialists. It cost a lot of money, though. Yes, I saw a lot of real money inthe bubble economy. I've seen that happen. There are a lot of things like that, aren't there?
When we sold my house in Sapporo, the banker who brokered the deal had an apartment building,so we built an apartment and a house on the same lot. At that time, we still had money.
Waka: That's what you saw that banker do (about the apartment) when we bought our own house in
Chogo.
Michiko: On the advice of the banker.
Waka: His advice.
Michiko: We built an apartment on that site.
Waka: Built on the advice of the banker.
Michiko: Yeah. The banker who helped us with our lot in Sapporo.
Waka: Did you build a main house and an apartment (in Chogo) on the advice of the banker who
helped you in Sapporo?
Michiko: Yes. We still had money, so we bought a house 3 minutes from the station in Kugenuma, an
old house. But the person who rented the house was a real estate agent, and he never paid the rent andcheated us. When we went to the person who introduced me to the real estate agent, he said to the realestate agent, "You graduated from Waseda University and are a respectable real estate agent, so why
are you being so stingy? He is a monk, the real estate agent. In the end, we got the house back. So wewere saved by a monk, by a banker, by a lawyer, and so on.
Waka: Wait a minute, that monk real estate guy, is he the one who rented the house in Kugenuma?
Michiko: No, the person who introduced us to the renter46

Waka: the person who introduced you to the renter is a monk and a real estate. This monk - real estate
person introduced you to that other person?
Michiko: Yeah, to one of his own business friends.
Waka: another real estate agent?
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: Both are real estate agents. The person who rented the apartment was also a real estate agent,and he asked for the apartment. The person who came between them was a monk in real estate. The
one who didn't return the money was a real estate agent who graduated from Waseda University.
Michiko: Yes. The monk talked to the real estate agent who didn't pay the rent.
Waka: So, you ended up quitting the lease on the house you were renting?
Michiko: Yeah. So that person also tried to sell.
Waka: That person wants to buy it and sell it.
Michiko: Yes. We were saved by a monk. The monk is that person, Mika’s (father).
Waka: It's Mika’s (father), I get it.
Michiko: He is very strict, because he has a strong sense of justice. So I've done a lot of things related
to money. I think I've had enough of it.
Waka: So it was Mika's father.
Michiko: Yes, he has a strong sense of justice. We had money. That's what I meant when I said, "Don't
rent this house.”
Waka: The house you are living in now.
Michiko: The house here. Renting a house involves a lot of things. I've been lucky, but there are a lot

47

of things that could happen. And taxes and so on. I've done that. What should I remember this time?
Waka: It's about 10 minutes left, so I guess it's about Fukushima, and it's March 11 today.
Michiko: Oh. My eldest daughter is a single parent and works in Tokyo, so my husband and I watched
most, if not all, of our grandchild. When my granddaughter was 9 years old, we had an earthquake.
Waka: Great East Japan Earthquake?
Michiko: The Great East Japan Earthquake. I was in the bathroom at Minato-no-Mieru-Oka Park when
I felt a tremor, and when I went outside, I thought I was dizzy, but the streetlights were shaking like arattling sound, and everyone was down on the ground. Then my grandchild came out of school,
because her school was right in front of the park, and we got on a city bus. The bus was shaking, but
we arrived safely at the subway station, which was overflowing with people. The station was
overflowing with people. I couldn't get cell phone service anywhere, and although I could get throughto a pay phone, there was a long line of people waiting to make calls. The train was stopped downstairs,
so my grandchild and I went there, but I thought we were in a difficult situation, so I asked her to buy
a lunch box at a convenience store, and we spent our time on the train feeding her leftover lunch to
my grandchild and eating the lunch box from the convenience store.
Three o'clock?

4 o'clock?

Was it 3:46? There were a lot of people there, but gradually they

disappeared, and when we went up to the ground level to walk home, there were so many people
walking around. People around us stopped us and told us that even if we wanted to walk home, thepower was out, so we had to go back downstairs and wait. We sat on a bench on the platform. The
train was packed with people, but by 7:00, 8:00, and 9:00, there were gradually fewer and fewer people,
down to about six. There were about 6 or 10 of us, and we were talking about family members coming
to pick us up or something. I said, "Fujisawa," and they said, "Well, whichever comes first will takeyou home.
Waka: Their car.
Michiko: I don't know this person at all. In short, the person whose family came first gave me a ride,in his car. So I think it was already 10 or 11 o'clock.
Waka: At night?
Michiko: Yes. It was pitch black, because the power was out. But even though the traffic lights were48

all dark, even at the 5-way traffic lights, everyone was very good at not buzzing or sounding the alarms,
and everyone was very kind to each other, giving way to each other. Given that kind of congestion, it
should be normally so tense, but it was amazing. They followed the rules, and it was pitch black, withno streetlights or anything. I was so surprised that this person gave me a lift home. I asked him his
name, but I don't remember it anymore, but I didn't have anything to thank him with, so I gave him ahandkerchief that I gave out to everyone when my grandchild was born, with some sugar in it to thankhim for his kindness. It was a little dirty, I don't know, but I gave them a lace handkerchief. It was agreat help. It's amazing, that kind of unconditional help.
A few days later, when I got on the train, I was taking my grandchild to school on the subway, andsomeone who was there at that time called out to me. I was very happy to see this person, as if wewere old acquaintances. People get on the train and walk around without looking like they don't knoweach other at all, but when they are in trouble, they are united. That's why neither I nor my grandchild
was upset at all. Given such a situation, we should panic….
Waka: You didn't panic at all?
Michiko: With my personality, I would be very upset because I am restless, but both of us were calm.
My grandchild was especially calm. She didn't scream or anything like that, and that's partly because
she was 9 years old. But afterwards, I heard that people who couldn't get home early had to stay atschool, and it was very difficult. So we were lucky. We took the city bus and went to the subway
station. That was a great thing. It wasn't so much the earthquake that was something, but the people's
feelings were something amazing.
Waka: Was it very good, or kind, or something like that?
Michiko: Yeah, I was impressed how kind the people could be. I would probably do that too, in that
position, if it were the other way around. But I don't have a car to drive or anything. I mean, we're
helping each other. I'm actually more scared. I don't know if it's gas or something, but there's a lot offire.
Waka: Was there a fire?
Michiko: Yeah.
Waka: far?

49

Michiko: Yes. It should be really scary, but it doesn't feel right because it's so far away, and it cameout of nowhere. I couldn't contact anyone at home at all, even though I called home from the subway
platform, I couldn't reach them. My daughter was away on a business trip, and she was worried andcalled us. So that got through.
Waka: It's a wonder my call went through.
Michiko: They say the distant one got through.
Waka: I called from the Philippines and get through.
Michiko: I think that is one of the reasons why my grandchild was so calm. She was not scared at all,and would draw pictures on the window. It was cold, and it was only March.
Waka: Oh, the window.
Michiko: Yes. So many things happened.
Waka: The windows turn white, because it's cold. Did she draw there with her fingers?
Michiko: She was drawing. I think she enjoyed the candy that she was given at that time.
Waka: From the people around you?
Michiko: Yes, all kinds of things.
Waka: Did you get many things?
Michiko: I see that many old people carry candy. I've been carrying candy in my luggage ever since.
Waka: Do you have it? You will give them some candy if something happens?
Michiko: And also a charger. I don't carry it because I don't go out these days, but for a while after
that, I was walking around with a charger. I felt like I could charge anywhere. But everyone becomesa good person after a disaster. But if they had been in absolute danger, they wouldn't have been thatkind, so they wouldn't have fallen into the ultimate difficulty at that time. That was the end of it. I

50

didn't see my own ugliness or anything like that, I only saw the goodness of people on March 11. I
still don't feel that it was difficult. I still feel that (people) treated me well.
Waka: I see, you still have that kind of feeling.
Michiko: It’s about the time?
Waka: Well, that concludes today’s interview. Thank you very much.
(End)

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