2024

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―7回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―7 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2024 年 7 月 15 日（月）10:10-10:54 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****
ワカ：じゃあお願いします。きょうは教育の話、お願いします。

ミチコ：子どもに対しての？

ワカ：子どもに対しての教育から。

ミチコ：学校の勉強は苦手だし、授業聞いてても分かったことってないから。でも、何となく大学まで出ちゃったし。だから、自分の子どもは英語、話せたらいいなと思ったの。

ワカ：初めて聞いた。

ミチコ：そう？

ワカ：うん。

ミチコ：だって夫は英語を少し話せるから海外に行っても楽しいし、そういう姿、見てきてるし。あと、モルモン教とか派遣された宗教者を家に連れてきて、泊めたり歓待したりして、
しょっちゅう楽しそうにやってて。

ワカ：そこ詳しく聞きたい。その宣教師が来た話。

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1ミチコ：すごい友好的だし。

ワカ：アメリカ人？

ミチコ：そう。グループで出たり入ったりしてて。本人は得意気じゃなかったけど、いいな、
世界広がるなと思ってた。話せるってことが。その輪に入ってたけど、本当には入ってないから。言語できないから。

ワカ：わいわいする中にいたけど。

ミチコ：作ったり食べたりして。子ども・・・。

ワカ：うちに泊まってた？

ミチコ：そう。泊まったり。

ワカ：そうだよね。うちに外国人が来てたって印象すごくあるけど、あれは宣教師だった。

ミチコ：宣教師。あと、YMCA に通ってて、夫が。

ワカ：北海道の。

ミチコ：そう。そこで知り合った講師のおうちに。千歳かどっかに基地あったかもしれない。

ワカ：あるよね。

ミチコ：そこに招待されて 2 人で行ったんだけど、私だけは話、分かんなくて。にこにこするのもまずいなと思って、怖い顔するの、まずいなと思って、非常に気まずかった。食べ物
も、どうやって食べていいか分かんない。

ワカ：何、出た？

ミチコ：チーズとか、私から見て既製品っぽいもの、ぽんぽんって出てた。すごく楽しそうに話してるわけ、夫は。夫婦単位、行きたくないって言っても。

2

ワカ：でも、夫婦単位よね。

ミチコ：ていうから。

ワカ：アメリカはね。

ミチコ：それが 10 年以上続いたら、つらくて。

ワカ：10 年以上続いたんだ。

ミチコ：でしょ、だって。

ワカ：そうだよね。それって、引っ越しても。福島でも、そういうことあったし。

ミチコ：そうよね。

ワカ：藤沢でもあったってことでしょう？

ミチコ：うん。藤沢なんかもそうだよね。

ワカ：藤沢、そうだよね。ベティさんとか来てたよね。私も覚えてる。

ミチコ：街、歩いたら「ハーイ」って言われるし。そういうにおいがするんでしょうね。

ワカ：しゃべれないのにね。

ミチコ：夫に。

ワカ：お父さんのほうに話し掛けてくんのね、外国の人が。アメリカ人が基本的に。

ミチコ：だから、子どもが 2、3 歳から、英語はテープでずっと流してて、一日中。

ワカ：そもそも 2、3 歳からだよね。てことは、北海道のときからでしょ。

ミチコ：もっと早いかもしれない。

3

ワカ：そうだよね。明らかに私の英語力おかしいと思ったの。普通に育ってる人じゃないって、日本で。どう考えても、ちっちゃいときに浴びせ掛けられてる。

ミチコ：聞きなさいっていうことは言ってないつもりなんだけど、ただ流してた。だって、私が英語分かんないのに。

ワカ：お母さんには説明できないもんね、私に対して。そのテープはどこから手に入れた？

ミチコ：通販かなんか。簡単に買えるんじゃない？ 今だって。

ワカ：通販で買ったんだよね。藤沢にいたときのは、東京子どもクラブだって分かったんだ
けど、札幌にいたとき、どうしたのか。

ミチコ：買ったんじゃないかな。

ワカ：札幌は、なんかあるよね。調べたら、その当時に英語の教材を買うことは、そんなに難しくなかったって。テープとか、レコードとかでしょ。

ミチコ：ただ流した。英語と日本語を交互に入ってたの？ ただ英語だけ、わーっと(流れていたの)？

ワカ：ただ英語だけなんだけど。うん。調べたら、私がやったのは、ただ英語だけだった。
だけど、その前に『セサミストリート』をすんごい見せられてるから。

ミチコ：強制的。あれは。

ワカ：『セサミストリート』で文字を覚えたってことが。

ミチコ：あれは絶対見せたの。

ワカ：絶対見せたでしょ。

ミチコ：あれは強制。

ワカ：仕掛けられた教育だったと思った。すんごい熱心に見て。それも 10 年単位で見てるよね、福島とか。考えたら。始まってから、ずっと。あれは当時は 1 日 2 回あった。
『セサ4ミストリート』が。

ミチコ：いい放送だったね。

ワカ：あれ、字幕とか当時なくて、そのまま英語だった。今、日本語付いちゃってるけど、
当時は日本語付いてなかった、調べたら。これは覚えるわと思った。見て。

ミチコ：なんせ、英語話せれば世界広がるって単純に。

ワカ：自分の世界は狭いなと思ったの？

ミチコ：そう。つらかったわね。夫婦で一緒にそういう所へ、外国人の所に行っても楽しめ
ないっていうのは。それじゃなくても、人と会いたくないのに。

ワカ：そうだよね。

ミチコ：社交的な夫と結婚したって思ったら、こういうことよね。

ワカ：お父さん、社交的だもんね。外国人の人は白人が多かった？

ミチコ：そう。白人が多かった。

ワカ：そうなのよ。私、だから、印象。ちっちゃいときに会ったアメリカ人は、ほとんど白人なの。ハワイに行ったときにアジア系のアメリカ人に会って、アジア系の人がいるって。
だから白い世界、私にとって英語は。東京子どもクラブは、どうやって発見したの。

ミチコ：よく分かんないな。

ワカ：しかも不思議で、あれ日本語もあるのに、私に与えられたのは英語だけだったわけよ。
それはすごいこだわりがあったわけ？

ミチコ：英語にこだわってたから、わたし。

ワカ：英語にこだわってたんだ。でも、弟はそれほどじゃないじゃん。彼は何、熱心にならなかった？ 子どもとして。私は多分、自分も英語が好きになって熱心に。すごい、レコー
ド繰り返し聞いたりしてたと思うけど。

5ミチコ：合ってたのね。

ワカ：合ってたね。カズマサは関心が向かなかった？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：同じようにしたの？

ミチコ：あなたにっていうか、流れてるから、みんな聞こえるじゃない。

ワカ：そうだよね。彼は関心が向かなかった。タイプだな。

(無言)

ミチコ：なんでかね。

ワカ：だから、お父さんがじゃなくて、お母さんが買ってた。

ミチコ：うん。あの人は子どもに教育するって感覚ないもん。

ワカ：ないね。

ミチコ：どこに行けとか何とかって、ない。

ワカ：なかったよね。教育熱心ではなかった。

ミチコ：ただ、自分が研究者になって、出身大学がそれなりでないと研究費も出ないし、道も開けないってことは肌で染みてるから。

ワカ：だから、私が大学院になったときに突然、熱心になったけど、それ以前は熱心じゃなかった。

ミチコ：行くんだったら、やっぱりそういう、いっぱい出る所。

ワカ：研究費が出る所に行きなさい。

6ミチコ：そうすると、東大と京大しかないもんね。

ワカ：まあね。

ミチコ：でも、東北大がすごいんでしょ？ 昔から。

ワカ：旧帝国大学は。

ミチコ：六つ。

ワカ：要するに研究志向大学だから、予算があると。

ミチコ：そのときだけだわね、口、出したの。当たってたし。

ワカ：そのとおりだと思って感謝してるけど。

ミチコ：学歴コンプレックスじゃなくて、こういうの、何つうの。教養コンプレックスっていうのかな。

ワカ：学歴コンプレックスではないんだよね、お母さんのって。

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：教養コンプレックスなの？

ミチコ：でしょうね。英語コンプレックス？ いや、全てよね。全て、もの知らないんだもん。

ワカ：何だろう。ものを知り過ぎる夫と結婚したから？

ミチコ：何なんでしょうね。

ワカ：お父さん、もの知り過ぎてる。

ミチコ：それでいて自分が学ぼうとしない。だから、根っから学習障害なんでしょうね。

7

ワカ：その傾向はあったんでしょ、ちっちゃいときから。あんまり頭に入ってこないみたい。

ミチコ：全然。

ワカ：文字は大丈夫なんだよね。読めるし、書けるし。むしろ、文章書けるでしょ。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：国語は良かったでしょ。

ミチコ：うん。何なんだ。

ワカ：あと、作文教育された？ 私たち、お母さんに。

ミチコ：ものすごいやったわね。

ワカ：すごいされたよね。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：あれはどういうこと？

ミチコ：何なんでしょうね。

ワカ：自分が書くの好きだから？

ミチコ：うん。そうだ。だから上手よ、カズマサもすごく文章を書くのが。

ワカ：カズマサ、文人じゃん、今じゃ、ちょっとした。たくさん読んで、たくさん書いたんだよ。私たちに。学校じゃなくて、家でやったんだと思うんだけど。

ミチコ：本は、ものすごい読んだもんね。

ワカ：図書館に行って、全ての本を読み尽くすようには。

8

ミチコ：図書館通いは、すごくしたわよね。

ワカ：したよね。週末は図書館に。カズマサも結構、本読む？

ミチコ：読む。

ワカ：うちの子は本読む子に育った。作文したよね、うちで。

ミチコ：原稿用紙いっぱい。

ワカ：あったね。原稿用紙が。考えると不思議。

ミチコ：何やってたんだか。

ワカ：よく覚えてるの、新潟のおじいちゃんの家に行ったときに、毎日はがきにお手紙書いて出すっていう。あれは何？

ミチコ：文章力よ。

ワカ：めっちゃ教育ママじゃん。

ミチコ：私にできるの、それしかないじゃない。

ワカ：そう思ったんだ。私は文章だって思ったの？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：特に算数とか習った記憶はないんだけど。

ミチコ：分かんない。

ワカ：お手紙、書いてたよね。はがきを半分に分けて、文章を書いて送る。でも、カズマサ、ちゃんと分かってて、絵とか描いてた気がする、調子よく。それは小学校のときだよね、私たちが。

ミチコ：そうだね。

9ワカ：中学校になったら、そんなに。手離れたって感じ？

ミチコ：だし、こっちが付いていけないじゃん。

ワカ：確かに。カズマサの勉強も小学校まで？

ミチコ：あれはかなり。そうだね。

ワカ：かなり見てたでしょ、私より。

ミチコ：ものすごい見てた。だって、全然駄目だったもの。

ワカ：その後、全然問題なく学習できてたけど、小学校のとき、何が駄目だったの？ 文字が読めない？

ミチコ：全部駄目だった。

ワカ：全部駄目だったの？

ミチコ：やる気ないもん。

ワカ：やる気がなさか、どっちかっていうと。学習障害ってよりは、注意がちょっとばらばらだった。

ミチコ：ノート作って、すごい熱心にやったよね。カコチャン・ノートだ。

ワカ：カコチャン・ノート。

ミチコ 小学館で採用された本はカズマサにやっちゃって、もう（手元に）ないから。

ワカ：お母さんのエッセーが選ばれて。

ミチコ：5 万円のね。

ワカ：5 万円のエッセーの賞、取ったやつ。教育の。

10

ミチコ：あれは他にも載ったんでしょ？

ワカ：今で言ったら、あれはある種の学習障害でしょ。覚えられないから。あと、メモが取れないんだっけ。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：メモが取れないから。でも、後で解決してるよね、あの人の場合。そのまま大きくなったっていうよりは。

ミチコ：みんなに褒められたからじゃない？

ワカ：どっちかっていうと、やる気のなさみたいな。

ミチコ：興味ないんでしょ。

ワカ：興味が（ない）。そこは、私もカズマサも共通してて。興味のないことを学校でやるってことが苦手な子たち。幼稚園は、いい幼稚園だったと。モンテッソーリで。あれは、たまたまモンテッソーリが近くにあったから？

ミチコ：近いから。

ワカ：それだけだよね。

ミチコ：うん。歩いて行けるから。

ワカ：でも、相当変わった幼稚園だったと思う。自由保育の。

ミチコ：はしりですもんね、あの頃。

ワカ：調べたら、ちょうど私が入った年からモンテッソーリ教育を始めてて。そのルーツは
どっから来たかっていうと、上智大学の講座で学んだ先生が始めましたみたいな。カトリッ
クだった。

ミチコ：熱心だったもんね、カトリック。

11

ワカ：私も、クリスマスの劇に出て。めんどりかなんかの役だった気がする。いい幼稚園だ
ったような気が。でも、1 年保育だったでしょ。それは何。引っ越してきたから 1 年になっちゃったの？ それとも、1 年しか行かせないと思ったの？

ミチコ：何にこだわってたのかね。

ワカ：カズマサも 1 年保育？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：当時は何年保育が多かったの？ 3 年入れる人が多かった？

ミチコ：何なんでしょう。2 年ぐらいで普通だったのかな。

ワカ：2 年ぐらいが一番、周りで多かった？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：でも、1 年でいいやと思った。

ミチコ：うん。幼稚園に入れないで突然小学校に入れるっていうのは、私みたいな社会性ない人間になるなと思ったから。

ワカ：そこは考えたんだ。

ミチコ：最低限 1 年は要るなと思ってた。

ワカ：社会性がある子どもにしようと思って、幼稚園入れた。

ミチコ：うん。私の母親があんなに学問したくたって環境的にできないから、結局、私を裏
口入学でも大学まで入れてるわけでしょ。

ワカ：すごいよね、その恨みたるや。おばあちゃんの。

ミチコ：それをちゃんと受けてできない私がいて。それはつらいから、子どもにはそうした

12

くないと思っても、いつの間にかしてたっていうことに。

ワカ：社会性って発想は、どっから来た。

ミチコ：だって、人となじめないもん。

ワカ：と思ってたんだ。でも、大学時代は友達いたでしょ。

ミチコ：周りはみんな優しかったもの。意地悪じゃないの。

ワカ：確かにね。

ミチコ：普通、はじき出されるよね。

ワカ：社交性がないから？ それとも炭鉱夫の娘だから？

ミチコ：炭鉱夫の娘って差別はなかった。

ワカ：あんま関係ない。

ミチコ：ただ、怖い怖いって言われた。

ワカ：社会性がないから？ 知らないからね。

ミチコ：流れ者のあれだから、怖い。

ワカ：イメージがすごい。

ミチコ：差別って、だんだん覚えてくもんよね。その中にいるときは、気が付かないのよね。

ワカ：だって、差別する人いないもんね。

ミチコ：みんな同じだもんね。

ワカ：中にいたら差別しようがないもんね、同じだから。社会性のほうは。

13

ミチコ：人と交わるのが、今もそうだけど。

ワカ：子どもはそうならないようにと思った。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：でも、あの幼稚園はモンテッソーリだから、1 人で集中して遊ぶっていうことが熱心だったから、お母さんが思うような社会性。ある種の社会性だけど、人と交わるってことは、すごく無理やりさせる幼稚園ではなかった。

ミチコ：泥んこになって帰ってきてたのね、毎日カズマサ。

ワカ：だって、1 人で遊んでいい。カズマサは遊んでたでしょ。私は熱心にアルファベット
並べるとか、そういうのやってた。一人遊び OK な幼稚園だった、実は。一人遊びしてるけ
ど、周りでもみんなが遊んでて、それぞれ遊ぶことを尊重するみたいな幼稚園だった。

ミチコ：子育て、うまくいかなかったな。子どものほうが大人だからよかったけど。

ワカ：分かんないけど。でも、アマネはそんなに。ママもカズちゃんも、そんな悪くない。
悪くなってか、仕上がりが大人としてって言うけど。

ミチコ：そこに孫が生まれたから、今度は失敗を繰り返さないと思って育てたけど、やっぱり失敗してるから。

ワカ：思いっきり英語の学校、入れてたもんね。私がいない間にインターに。でも、彼女はインターでよかったと。英語は、そういうことでやることになったのか。

ミチコ：彼が英語中心の生活してたから。

ワカ：英語だいぶ好きだったし、お父さん。大学時代からすごい好きだったの？ お父さん、英会話とか。

ミチコ：独学で、何でもってことない、できるんだよね。

ワカ：学校で習ってるのとは別なところで勉強してた。

14

ミチコ：札幌の YMCA がすごい効いたんじゃない？

ワカ：そんな感じはする。札幌 YMCA。

ミチコ：だって、私がこんななってたって行ったんだからね。

ワカ：そうだよね。訪問したんでしょ、アメリカ。

ミチコ：これは難産ですって言われてんのに。

ワカ：写真見たら、向こうの赤ちゃん抱いてたもんね。そう分かってても行っちゃうとこが、お父さん。

ミチコ：それで病室の入り口から入ってこないもん、怖がって。

ワカ：私が生まれてんのに。

ミチコ：その辺りに。怖がってんの。点滴につながれてたから。あなたは生まれてなかった
んじゃないかな。

ワカ：（わたしはまだ）生まれてなかった。生まれた後に帰ってきてんの？

ミチコ：だよね。生まれてなかったよ。

ワカ：だから、その後にお見舞いっていうか、見に来たんじゃない？ 母子を北海道大学病院に。おばあちゃんも全然そういうの平気だったんだ、母方の。お父さんがアメリカ行くとか。

ミチコ：喜んでた。自分は何でも教育を受けたかったから。

ワカ：素晴らしいと。トモオさんアメリカ行くの、素晴らしい。

ミチコ：すごいいい婿さんが現れてるから、もう死ぬまで。

ワカ：気に入ってたよね、お父さんのことね。

15

ミチコ：あんなに何でも反対する人が。

ワカ：何でも反対する人だった？

ミチコ：うん。同じじゃんね、私と。

ワカ：よく分かんないけど。ちっちゃいときに苦労してるからじゃない？ 2 人とも。

ミチコ：あの明るさだもの、オープンな。誰に対しても、ああだもんね。今、あんななってるけど。

ワカ：でも、根底は明るいよね、今も。アッコちゃんがドイツに行ったっていうのは、おば
あちゃんは大賛成？

ミチコ：そう。

ワカ：ドイツに留学したよね。

ミチコ：あの人、本当に勉強好きだったからね。

ワカ：すごいドイツで勉強したんでしょ？

ミチコ：うん。奈良女子大の岡潔先生に憧れて入ったって人、多いよね。

ワカ：数学の？ うん。

ミチコ：本当に人柄もいいよね、岡潔さんって。だから、その先生に教わりたかったんでしょ。でも、落っこっちゃったから。

ワカ：数学やりたかった？ 薬学じゃなくて？

ミチコ：数学。岡潔さん、数学でしょ。

ワカ：数学だよね。

ミチコ：心理学者でよくマスコミに出てる女性も、岡潔さんに憧れて奈良女子大に行ったっ

16

て。

ワカ：奈良女子大、受けたんだ。私たちの世代でも、もちろん岡潔は有名な人だけど、その当時は現実に生きてる人として憧れられて。

ミチコ：妹が薬剤師になったのは、親が、資格なんか持てっていうことで。

ワカ：本当は数学やりたかった。

ミチコ：うん。でも、理系だから受けた大学は全部受かってるよね。

ワカ：頭いいね。

ミチコ：それでも裏口入学のお金 100 万取られてんだよね。

ワカ：アッコちゃんは要らなかったかも。

ミチコ：全部受かってるのにね。

ワカ：全部受かってる。

ミチコ：怪しいな。何やって。そんなことね。本当に裏口入学どうかも分かんないけど、裏口なんで。

ワカ：本当に裏口なのかも、よく分かんないよね。当時としては裏じゃなかったんでしょ。
表にあるような裏口だったんだよね。今から見たら裏口だけど。

ミチコ：学生がそんなに大学進学率のないときだから、課せられたんじゃないの、先生たちが。教授たちが、1 人いないの？とかって。それで一生懸命。ついでのお金も取ったんでしょ。

ワカ：ついでにお金も。感謝されるから、もらって。アッコちゃん、ドイツ 3 年ぐらい行ってた？

ミチコ：行ってたわね。

17ワカ：行ってたよね。福島にいたときに帰ってきたよね、私たちが。私たちが福島にいたときにチロル服着て帰ってきた。

ミチコ：そういう人なの。

ワカ：よく考えたらすごいね。民族衣装着て帰ってくる。そういう人なんだ。ドイツは、どこ行ってた。ミュンヘン？

ミチコ：分かんない。そうだと思う。

ワカ：私も調べたんだけど、チロル服を着てるってことは多分、南バイエルン。南のほうに、
ドイツの、いたのかな。あと、ヨーデルとかのレコード持ってきたでしょ。ヨーデル、すごいかかってた気がするんだけど。

ミチコ：病院で働いてたのかな。働きながら勉強したんじゃないかな。

ワカ：働きながら勉強してた。

ミチコ：のような気がするわね。

ワカ：働いてた？

ミチコ：そういうことに関して全然興味ないから、私ね。

ワカ：詳しく聞いてないわけ。

ミチコ：行ったって感じで。帰ってきた。

ワカ：行ってきた、帰ってきたみたいな。その間、連絡とかなかったの？

ミチコ：あったんでしょうけどね。昔、手紙だもんね。

ワカ：手紙でしょ？

ミチコ：和佳生まれたら、すごい喜んでたもんね。なんから取ったんだっけ。名前。

18

ワカ：私の名前？

ミチコ：うん。古典のなんかから取った。

ワカ：アッコちゃんが付けたんでしょ。

ミチコ：そう。古典かなんかの。

ワカ：平和の和に佳人の佳。昭和の和なの？ 平和の和なの？

ミチコ：平和の和でしょ。

ワカ：平和の和だよね。昭和の和じゃないよね。古典から取った。

ミチコ：かわいがってたよね。

ワカ：うん。すごい。私、だから、アッコちゃんって登場する。幼少期の早々の時期に。

ミチコ：最初に覚えた言葉、アッコちゃんだもんね。

ワカ：そうだよね。

ミチコ：お父さん、お母さんじゃないもんね。

ワカ：アッコちゃんって言ってた。

ミチコ：かわいがってたわね、すごく。

ワカ：結婚するの、もうちょっと後でしょ。アッコちゃんが。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：私の周りは外国語が多かったよね、だから。ドイツ語とか、英語とか、おじいちゃんの謎のロシア語とか。

ミチコ：うまいかどうか、分かんないけど。

19

ワカ：誰も分からない。おじいちゃんが何言ってるか、分かんなくて。それはロシア語だってことしか、分かんないから。でも、すっごいしゃべってたよね。アマネ生まれてからも、
時々しゃべってた。だいぶロシアの人としゃべってた。カラフトのとき。お母さんカラフト
で生まれて、何歳で帰ってきた？

ミチコ：あれ？

ワカ：そこが分かんないけど、引き揚げていんだよね、つまり。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：うちは実は引き揚げ家族？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：調べると、政府の公式引き揚げが何回かあって、それで帰ってきてんだと。戦争終わった 45 年には帰ってきてないでしょ。だって、生まれたの、40。

ミチコ：44 年。

ワカ：44 年？ 45 年に帰ってきてるって雰囲気がないんだよ。もうちょっといた？

ミチコ：分かんないな。

ワカ：アッコちゃんは札幌じゃないや。

ミチコ：向こうね。

ワカ：どこ生まれだっけ。

ミチコ：カラフトよね。

ワカ：アッコちゃんもカラフト生まれ？

ミチコ：うん。

20

ワカ：そうしたら、やっぱり公式の引き揚げのどれかで帰ってきてると。

ミチコ：赤ん坊かわいいから、欲しいって言われたんだ。置いてってくれ。

ワカ：当時の残留孤児になるとこだったんだ、アッコちゃんって。引き揚げは大変だったっ
ていうけど、2 人とも、そのこと全然しゃべんないから、あんまりイメージが持てないんだ
けど。政府に誘導されて芦別、行ってると思う。炭鉱労働者が足りないから。おじいちゃん
たちは無縁者っていって、北海道の誰とつながりがあるか、もう分かんなくなっちゃってる
っていうか、カラフトに。そういう感じで引き揚げてきたんだと思う。どこに引き揚げるかが、よく分かんないっていう。

ミチコ：これには書いてないんだ。ダスキンだ。

ワカ：ダスキンが来た。その辺を。

ミチコ：書いてない。

ワカ：だから、ソ連侵攻してきたときにいたってことでしょ。ソ連侵攻したときにいて、炭鉱がソ連。

ミチコ：1944 年、サハリンで生まれて、1948 年、北海道引き揚げてきてるんだ。

ワカ：48 年に引き揚げてるんだ。

ミチコ：これ、なんで分かった。

ワカ：結構いたね。取りあえずアッコちゃんがカラフトで生まれてんの？

ミチコ：生まれてる。間違いない。

ワカ：48 年頃なんだよね。それは大体合ってると思う。私も調べたけど、そんなに直後には帰れてない、人。炭鉱でその後も働いてたから、ロシア語できるんでしょ。上司がロシア人になったって言ってて。

ミチコ：そっか。

21ワカ：調べたら、そうだった。実際にロシアがそれを支配するようになった、炭鉱を。3 年もいたら覚えるよね、おじいちゃんだって。

ミチコ：そうだよね。

ワカ：ちっちゃい頃、英語とドイツ語もあったけど、ロシア語もあったと思って、不思議だな。

ミチコ：これ、メモしててよかった。戸籍謄本かなんか見たのかもしれない、自分で。

ワカ：戸籍謄本で見たの。ユタカおじちゃんは、どこで生まれた？

ミチコ：分かんないけど、もう生まれてたのかしらね。私と・・・。

ワカ：行くときにね、サハリンに。

ミチコ：三つ違いだから。よくこんなこと書いてた。いっぱい書いてあるね。

ワカ：ありがと。

(無言)

ミチコ：戸籍謄本、見たんじゃないかな。

ワカ：1948 年引き揚げ。

ミチコ：ていうか、出生。

ワカ：出生して。

ミチコ：産んでるでしょ。

ワカ：出生は 1944 年。

ミチコ：そう。

22ワカ：おっきい歴史の中で動いてるっていうのは分かった。カラフト。だから、2 回移民してんだよね、うち。移住してるんだよね。東北から、いわゆる開拓で。

ミチコ：そうだ。宮城から。

ワカ：かっこ付きだけど開拓で。宮城からだったんだ。

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：宮城から上富良野に行ったの？ 一番最初の私の曽祖父母。

ミチコ：最初、どこ開墾したのかな。父は上富良野でしょ。

ワカ：おじいちゃんの代になったら、そうだよね。上富良野。

ミチコ：母は奈井江よね。

ワカ：な？

ミチコ：奈井江。

ワカ：ナイエって、どういう字。

ミチコ：奈良の奈に、井戸の井に、江戸の江。

ワカ：ナナっていうのは、数字の七？

ミチコ：奈井江。

ワカ：数字の七？

ミチコ：ううん。奈良の奈。

ワカ：ナナ？

23

ミチコ：奈良県の奈良。

ワカ：奈良県の奈良。奈良の奈で、井戸の井？

ミチコ：うん。

ワカ：野原？

ミチコ：昔だと空知郡美唄市。

ワカ：美唄は分かる。

ミチコ：奈井江だから、江戸の江。

ワカ：ごめん、ナイヤじゃなくて奈井江。

ミチコ：母が奈井江。

ワカ：おばあちゃんは奈井江。

ミチコ：美唄の奈井江でしょ。

ワカ：今の美唄町。

ミチコ：今、美唄市じゃない？ あの頃、美唄市。

ワカ：美唄市か。

ミチコ：美唄市の奈井江。母はそこで開墾。

ワカ：ここで開墾した。

ミチコ：父親がやった。

ワカ：おばあちゃんのお父さんが開墾したんだよね、奈井江を。

24

ミチコ：それで父は。思い出してきた。

ワカ：すごい。

ミチコ：上富良野。
ワカ：おじいちゃんのおじいちゃん2は上富良野。

ミチコ：それで、わらのおうちの大事件が。

ワカ：おうちが燃えた大事件が。

ミチコ：つらいよね。

ワカ：あれはすごいトラウマだよね。

ミチコ：死ぬまで言わなかったもん。

ワカ：言えないんじゃない。

ミチコ：おばに聞くまで知らなかった。

ワカ：おばさんは言えるけど、おじいちゃんは言えない。

ミチコ：おばも聞いた話だから。自分、生まれてなかった。

ワカ：自分、怖くないから言えるんだよね。実際に経験してたら言えないかもしんない、怖過ぎて。

ミチコ：それで頭おかしくなって、牢屋に入ったんだもんね。

ワカ：私の曽祖父？

ミチコ：うん。

2

混乱している。実際には、「おとうさん」。

25

ミチコ：この話がクライマックスじゃない？

ワカ：お話、書くときに。

ミチコ：いや、そうでもないか。

ワカ：お話、書くとき。いろいろあったっていうか、日本の歴史の中。面白い。だから植民地支配してたわけじゃん、カラフトは。そこに住んでたんだなと思って。北海道だって、ある種の植民地支配じゃない。アイヌが住んでた所だから。

ミチコ：変だよね、アイヌを疎外するなんてね。

ワカ：本当に変な話だ。

ミチコ：本当だよね。変な法律、次から次へとできて。

ワカ：当時のね。

ミチコ：おかしいな。

ワカ：そうだよね、最近まであったもんね。旧土人保護法とか。本当に最近まであった。

ミチコ：失礼しちゃうよね。

ワカ：本当に。おじいちゃんのロシアの炭鉱の話は、朝鮮人の人がすごいかわいそうだったって話も出てくる。

ミチコ：言ってた？

ワカ：言ってた。私が 2 回だけ録音して、お話聞いたとき。残念ながら、その録音はなくしちゃったんだけど。本当、残念。子どもだったからちゃんと管理できなくて、なくしちゃっ
たんだけど。おじいちゃん言ってたから。身分差別っていうか、職場にあって。ロシアの人が上で、日本の人がいて、朝鮮の人がすごく下に見られててっていう話。だけど、戦争終わったから、日本人（「臣民」）じゃなくなったわけでしょ、その人って、突然。

26

ミチコ：それで小池さんとか、そういうのに出席しないのね。

ワカ：歴史的に見たらだいぶ悪いことしてるから、責任取るべきだと私個人は思うけど。

ミチコ：だから、慰霊みたいなの出たほうがいいよね。

ワカ：普通に（そう）思うけどね。

ミチコ：学歴詐称なんかしてないでさ。

ワカ：あれを隠す努力もすごいよね。証明しない努力も。

ミチコ：いや、すごかったわよ。先々号の『文藝春秋』読んだけど、もうあからさまに側近が。

ワカ：何？ 詐称だと。

ミチコ：そう。エヘヘっていう感じとか赤裸々に書いてて。そんなの、どうでもいいのにね。

ワカ：本当はおかしいと思う。蓮舫があれ言った、これ言ったよりも学歴詐称、本当はきちんとそこを明らかにしたほうがいいと思う。でも、なあなあで済んじゃうんだよ。権力の座に着いてると。

ミチコ：堂々とやっちゃうとこが、すごいよね。

ワカ：本人は真実、知ってるんだろうけど。

ミチコ：同級生たちもみんな本出してて、ベストセラーになってても、こうだもんね。

ワカ：私たちは実際を見たと言ってんでしょ。

ミチコ：しかも匿名じゃないからね。

ワカ：責任持つってことでしょ、そういった記事に。

ミチコ：私も、そういう意味では学歴詐称よね。

27

ワカ：詐称じゃないじゃん。卒業して。

ミチコ：一応証書はあったって、中身ないじゃない。似たようなもんだと思うよ。

ワカ：そんなこと言ったら、たくさんそういう人がいるんじゃ。

ミチコ：だから私、小池さんを堂々と批判なんかできない。

ワカ：それは次元が違うと思うよ。大学を出て、証明書を発行してもらえるかどうかっていう。証明書が発行されるでしょ、大学に行ったら。お母さんの場合、卒業してるから。

ミチコ：小池さんは、それを最後まで出さなかったのね。

ワカ：だから、全然違う話だと思う。

ミチコ：すごいね。力があるって、そういうことなのね。

ワカ：この国で力があるってこと。

ミチコ：でも、やることもやってるからね、そう言っても。七つのうち、三つはやってるんでしょ。

ワカ：でも、ちゃんと公約してないんじゃない、いろんなこと。これから何してくれるかとか、公務優先だったから。

ミチコ：話が全然違うわね。

ワカ：いいんじゃない、そういう話も別に。教育の話は面白かった。なんで私が英語できんのかなって思ってたから。

ミチコ：劣等感の裏返しよね。代々そうよ。母が行きたくても行けないから、子どもに託して。

ワカ：うちは最終的に、アマネはインターナショナルスクールに行くっていう展開になるわ
けよね、最終的に。

28

ミチコ：戸籍謄本取れば、すぐ分かることだよね。

ワカ：いいんじゃない、ざっくりで。

ミチコ：そうなの？

ワカ：そういう細かい検証するっていう研究ではないから。

ミチコ：こんなんでも本になるの？

ワカ：しばらく寝かせてから。クララの話もあるから。編集者が「分厚くてもいいんですよ」って言ってる。私が「短くしますか」って。だって、1 回 50 分で文字に書き起こすと、大体 1 万 2000 とか 1 万 4000 とかだから、それが 7 本あると、それだけで 10 万字ぐらいになるでしょ。10 万字ぐらいのが 2 本あるってことは 20 万字だから、結構、字数は多い。
「編
集しましょうか」って言ったら、「意外と厚い感じで考えてます」って言われ。でも、今すぐは書かないと思う。ちょっと寝かさないと分かんないかなと。福島行ってみたり、北海道
行ってみたりしてから。本名で書くかどうかも、考え中で。

ミチコ：本当だね。

ワカ：フィクションっぽくしちゃったほうがいいかもしれない。私、今、依頼で別のエッセ
ー書いてんだけど、それは私じゃなくて、フィクションにしてある。私がベースだけど、私そのものにしちゃうと書きにくいこととかもあるから。他人も関係してくるっしょ。だから、フィクションにして。フィクションにしちゃってもいい。最近、研究でもそういうのが許される時代になってるんで。フィクション的に書くっていう。

ミチコ：生々しいもんね、ノンじゃね。

ワカ：うん？

ミチコ：ノンフィクションじゃ、生々しいもんね。

ワカ：ノンフィクションだと、もっと調べなきゃいけないと思う。逆にその生々しさを生かすために、もっと歴史的に緻密に事実とかを調べて。

29

ミチコ：そうだ。

ワカ：さまざまな文献と突き合わせなきゃいけないけど。今回はそうじゃなくて、どんな感じだったっていう経験。お母さんの人生は、お母さんから見てどうだったかって話。

ミチコ：だから、大宅何とか賞とか面白いんだよね、取った人の文章読むと。

ワカ：すっごい細かく調べてるから。ノンフィクションではないので、この本は。どっちかっていうと。

ミチコ：今、ノンフィクション書く人少ないね。

ワカ：少なくなってんの？

ミチコ：そう思わない？

ワカ：分かんないけど、そうなんだ。

ミチコ：ノンフィクションって、面白いと思う。

ワカ：ノンフィクションは目標が別だから、伝えることの。今回は私とお母さんとか、私とクララの間で人生を分かち合うと、どうなるかっていう企画だから。どっちかっていうと、聞き書きっていう分野で。森崎和江とか石牟礼道子とか、あと藤本和子とかかな、通じる方法論が。2 人で話して、その中で出てくるお話が何か。それが本当に事実かどうかっていうのは、あまり追究しない。2 人の間でどういう話がされたかを大事にするっていう手法です。

ミチコ：対比していくのね。

ワカ：そうだね。自然に対比になるんじゃないかな。フィリピンはフィリピンの歴史があるから。でもフィリピンの人も、ある種の。ミンダナオ島って南だから、移住してんのね、(クララの家族は)北から、セブ島から。ミンダナオには先住民がいたから、その先住民の土地を奪って住んだっていうのが背景にある。だから、2 人（クララとミチコ）に共通するのは移住者の子どもであるっていう。

ミチコ：前向きですもんね、フィリピンのほうは。私は後ろ向きだもんね。

30

ワカ：恵まれてないからね、経済的に。お金、全然なかったから。クララの場合は、すっご
い大学に行きたくて、ものすごい努力していって。お金も自分で調達して。

ミチコ：面白いかもしれないね、全然違うから。

ワカ：面白いと思う。

ミチコ：親のコンプレックスの代償じゃないか。逆よね。

ワカ：向こうは親は全く学校に行くことに意味を認めてくれなかったけど、本人は学校に行かないと、農村で一体、私の人生どうなっちゃうんだろうって思っていたっていう。

ミチコ：面白いわ。

ワカ：そこの対比は面白い。

ミチコ：面白い。

ワカ：人生の時期は全くかぶってるわけじゃないけど、日本の近代化の時期とフィリピンの近代化の時期って捉えたときには、重なる。お母さんたちの年齢は違うけど、フィリピンは後から経済成長してるから、そういう意味では重なる。

ミチコ：一回りぐらい違う？

ワカ：うん？

ミチコ：一回りぐらい違う？

ワカ：彼女 67 かな、今年。

ミチコ：全然違う。

ワカ：フィリピンは今、経済成長してるから。2000 年ぐらいから。

ミチコ：13 違う。一回り近い。

31

ワカ：だから、ちょうどいいぐらい。フィリピンの経済の近代化していく時期、考えると。

ミチコ：コンプレックスの塊と前向きの人と。いいね。

ワカ：確かにね。どう書くかだけど。きょうは、これぐらいで。ありがとうございました。
終わります。

ミチコ：録音。消していいよ。

ワカ：消してからね。ありがとうございます。

(了)

32

Michiko's Life - Narrative of the 7th interview3
Institute of Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Monday, July 15, 2024, 10:10-10:54 Interview with MichikoInterviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Okay, please. Today, please talk about education.
Michiko: For children?
Waka: Education for your children.
Michiko: I'm not good at schoolwork, and I never understood anything even when I attended theclasses. But I somehow ended up going to university. So I thought it would be nice if my child could
speak English.
Waka: I've never heard of it before.
Michiko: Really?
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: Because my husband speaks a little English, he enjoys going abroad, and I have seen him do
so. Also, he often brings Mormons and other religious people to our house, and let them stay andentertain them, and he always seems to enjoy doing so.
3

Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy. Highlighted

portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author would like to thank Michiko,the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan and Mr. Christian Pasion of Ateneo de Davao
University for their advice in starting this study; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the Shirokane-Takanawa Counseling
Room; Dr. Dan Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr. Reiko Kuroda of the Universityof Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.

33

Waka: I want to hear more about that. The story of that missionaries’ visits.
Michiko: They're incredibly friendly.
Waka: American?
Michiko: Yes. They would visit us often. He did not brag about it, but I thought it was great and thatit broadened my world. Being able to talk. I was part of the group, but I wasn't really part of it. Because
I couldn't speak the language.
Waka: You were with them, but……
Michiko: Cooking and eating. Child...
Waka: Did they stay at our house?
Michiko: Yes. Staying overnight.
Waka: That's right. I have the impression that foreigners came to our house, now I know they were
missionaries.
Michiko: Missionaries. Also, he went to the YMCA, I mean, my husband.
Waka: Hokkaido.
Michiko: Yes. So we visited the house of a lecturer that he met there. There might have been a basesomewhere in Chitose.
Waka: There is, isn't there?
Michiko: We were invited to the party and we went together, but I was the only one who didn't
understand what they were talking about. I felt it was not good to smile, and I felt it was not good tomake a scary face, so it was very awkward. I didn't know how to eat the food either.
Waka: What did you eat there?

34

Michiko: Cheese and other things that looked ready-made in my eyes, such a spread! My husband isenjoying talking. You know, we should go together as a married couple, even though I do not want to.
Waka: As a married couple.
Michiko: That's why.
Waka: It is like that in the United States.
Michiko: That lasted more than 10 years. It was hard for me.
Waka: It lasted over ten years.
Michiko: Right.
Waka: That's right. That's what happens even after we moved. That's what happened in Fukushima,too.
Michiko: That's right.
Waka: You mean, such occasions also happened in Fujisawa, right?
Michiko: Yes, in Fujisawa as well.
Waka: Fujisawa, that's right. Betty-san and others came, didn't they? I remember that too.
Michiko: People say "Hi" when we walk around town. I guess that they can smell……
Waka: Even though you can't speak (English)?
Michiko: To my husband.
Waka: The foreigner talks to my father. They were Americans, basically.
Michiko: So, since my child was 2 or 3 years old, I've been playing English on tape, all day long.

35

Waka: Wait, you started it when I was 2 or 3 years old? That means you started it when we were in
Hokkaido, right?
Michiko: It could be earlier.
Waka: I know. Obviously, I thought my English proficiency was not usual. I thought, I am not likesomeone that grew up in a normal way in Japan. I must have been immersed in English since I was
little.
Michiko: I don't think I told you to listen, but I just keep playing it. Because I don't understand English.
Waka: You can't explain to me what I am listening, right? Where did you get those tapes from?
Michiko: Mail order or something. It's easy to buy. Even now.
Waka: You bought them by mail order. When I was in Fujisawa, I knew that it was Tokyo Kodomo
Club, but when I was in Sapporo, what happened?
Michiko: I think I bought them.
Waka: They must have been selling (English learning materials) in Sapporo in those days. I looked it
up and found that it wasn't that difficult to buy English materials back then. You know, tapes, records.
Michiko: I just keep playing them. Did they record alternatively in English and Japanese? Or was it
just English throughout the tapes?
Waka: It's just English. Yeah. I looked it up, and I found that it was just English. But before that, you
showed me "Sesame Street" so much.
Michiko: I forced you (to watch) that one.
Waka: It seems like I somehow learned how to write from the "Sesame Street".
Michiko: I definitely showed that one.

36

Waka: You definitely showed it.
Michiko: That was compulsory.
Waka: I thought that you made me watch the program. I watched it very intently. I kept watching it for
10 years, like I remember watching it when we were in Fukushima. Come to think about it. Ever since
it started. It was on twice a day at the time. Sesame Street.
Michiko: That was a good program.
Waka: There were no subtitles at the time, so it was all in English. Now they have Japanese subtitles,
but at that time they didn't. I looked it up. No wonder. If it goes like that, it should have been easy forme to learn the language.
Michiko: At any rate, if you can speak English, you can expand your horizons.
Waka: Did you think your world was small?
Michiko: Yes. It was hard. It was hard for me as to go to such places together as a couple, to go toforeigner's places. I could not enjoy it. In the first place, you know, I would not enjoy meeting people.
Waka: That's right.
Michiko: This happened because I married a sociable husband.
Waka: My father is very social, isn't he? Were most of the foreigners Caucasian?
Michiko: Yes. There were many white people.
Waka: That's right. That’s my impression, too. Most of the Americans I met when I was a little girlwere white. When I went to Hawaii, I met Asian Americans, and that’s when I became aware that there
are Asian Americans. So, basically, it had been a white world, that’s what English meant to me. How
did you find the Tokyo Kodomo Club (Tokyo Children’s Club)?
Michiko: I'm not sure.

37

Waka: And it's strange, for I have discovered that they had also Japanese materials, but the ones you
gave me was the English ones only. Was that a great obsession of yours?
Michiko: I was obsessed with English.
Waka: I stuck to English. But my brother wasn't so much. He wasn't, what, enthusiastic? As a child.
I was probably very enthusiastic about English myself. I think I listened to a lot of records on repeat.
Michiko: You liked them.
Waka: I liked them, indeed. Was Kazumasa not interested?
Michiko: No.
Waka: Did you do the same (to him)?
Michiko: Well, it was not like I would play it for you only. It was more like I would play out there,
and everybody could hear it.
Waka: That's right. He was not interested. He was not that kind of child.
(Silence)
Michiko: Why is that?
Waka: So, Mom bought them, not Dad.
Michiko: Right. He was not much interested in education of his children.
Waka: No, he wasn’t at all.
Michiko: He would not say that his children must go to certain schools or so.
Waka: No. He was never enthusiastic about the education of his children.
Michiko: But one things was certain. He knew to his skin that his career as a researcher had been38difficult because he did not graduate from a prestigious university and he would not be able to get a
job at a university that would provide him with sufficient research fund.
Waka: So all of a sudden when I started grad school, I became enthusiastic, but before that he wasnever enthusiastic about my education.
Michiko: He means, if you pursue a career as a researcher, you must go to school where you can get a
lot of research fund.
Waka: Go where you can get research fund.
Michiko: Then there are only the University of Tokyo and Kyoto University.
Waka: Well, yeah.
Michiko: But Tohoku University has been great, too, right?
Waka: The former Imperial Universities are (research-oriented ones).
Michiko: Six.
Waka: Basically, they are research-oriented universities, and so they have budget.
Michiko: That was the only time when he advised you, and his advice was right, right?
Waka: I appreciate his advice, and I am thankful to him.
Michiko: It's not an academic complex (gakureki-complex), but this kind of thing, what is it called? I
think it's called an education complex (kyoyo-complex).
Waka: It's not an academic complex, Mom?
Michiko: No.
Waka: Do you have an education complex?

39

Michiko: I bet. English complex? No, it's everything. Everything, I don't know things.
Waka: I wonder. Is it because you married a husband who knows too much?
Michiko: I wonder what it is.
Waka: Dad, he kind of knows too much stuff.
Michiko: And yet, I am not motivated to learn…… So I guess I have a learning disability.
Waka: You have had that tendency since you were little. It’s like you had difficulties in learning
things……
Michiko: Exactly.
Waka: You can write okay. You can read and write. In fact, you can write well.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: In school, your performance in the Japanese language (kokugo) was rather good.
Michiko: Yeah. I wonder why.
Waka: Also, were we educated in composition? Did you teach us how to compose, Mom?
Michiko: Enthusiastically.
Waka: You did it with so much passion, didn’t you?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: What made you do that?
Michiko: I wonder what it was.
Waka: Because you like to write?

40

Michiko: Yeah. That's right. That's why Kazumasa is good at writing as well.
Waka: Kazumasa, he is such a literary man, now, kinda. He read a lot, he wrote a lot. We did it at home.
I think we did it at home, not at school.
Michiko: You read a lot of books.
Waka: It’s like I read all the books at the library.
Michiko: We went to the library a lot.
Waka: We did, didn't we? We would go to the library on weekends. Does he read a lot, Kazumasa?
Michiko: He does.
Waka: We grew up to be book readers. We wrote essays, right, in our house.
Michiko: There were lots of genkouyoshi (Japanese lined paper for writing) there.
Waka: There were. Genkouyoshi. Come to think about it, it’s strange.
Michiko: I don't know what I was doing.
Waka: I remember well, when we (Waka and Kazumasa) went to our grandfather's house in Niigata,we would write a letter on a postcard every day and send it out to you. What was that?
Michiko: It's for developing your writing skills.
Waka: You are such an education-minded mom.
Michiko: That's the only things I could do.
Waka: That's what you thought? Did you think like, “What I can do is writing!” ?
Michiko: Right.

41

Waka: I don't remember your teaching me Math or other subjects in particular.
Michiko: I don't remember.
Waka: Letters, we wrote. We would divide a postcard in half, write sentences, and send it. But,
Kazumasa, I think he was smarter than I was, and he would draw pictures and stuff to fill the space.
That was when we were in elementary school, right?
Michiko: Yes, that's right.
Waka: In middle school, not so much. You feel like we grew up?
Michiko: And I could not keep up with you anymore.
Waka: Indeed. You taught Kazumasa' only until he finished elementary school?
Michiko: I taught him very seriously. I guess so.
Waka: You taught him much more that you did to me.
Michiko: I taught him very seriously, for he was not performing well at all (in school).
Waka: After that, he turned out to be alright. So I wonder what was wrong with him in elementary
school? He was not able to read?
Michiko: He was performing poor in all subjects.
Waka: All?
Michiko: He had no motivation.
Waka: So, it was rather a lack of motivation. It was not like a learning disability, but his attention wasa little scattered.
Michiko: I made a notebook for him and taught him with great enthusiasm. I called it Kakochan

42notebook.
Waka: Kakochan notebook.
Michiko: I gave the book that included my essay awarded by Shogakukan was to Kazumasa, so I don't
have it anymore.
Waka: Your essay was selected.
Michiko: The prize was 50,000 yen.
Waka: The 50,000-yen essay prize, the one you won. It was on education.
Michiko: That was re-published elsewhere, too, wasn't it?
Waka: Now, I would say that that could be some kind of learning disability. He had difficulties inmemorizing things. And, I don't know, he had difficulties in taking notes, too.
Michiko: Right.
Waka: He could not take notes. But you know, he turned out to be alright later. It's not like he grew up
with those difficulties.
Michiko: Isn't it because everyone praised me?
Waka: He could not do the things just because he lacked motivation….
Michiko: He was not interested.
Waka: Not interested. That is something that Kazumasa and I have in common. We were children
would not do things at school that they are not interested in. I think that kindergarten we went to wasa good kindergarten. It was a Montessori school. You sent us there just because there happened to bea Montessori nearby?
Michiko: Because it's close.

43

Waka: That's it.
Michiko: Yes. Because it was in a walking distance.
Waka: But I think it was a very unique kindergarten. It was jiyukyoiku (freestyle childcare).
Michiko: Such style of childcare was still new at that time, wasn't it?
Waka: I looked it up and found that they started Montessori education just the year I joined. Where
did its roots come from? It was like some teachers who studied in a course at Sophia University started
it at the kindergarten. It was Catholic.
Michiko: They were very enthusiastic, Catholic.
Waka: I remember playing a role in the Christmas play. I played a hen or something. I think it was agood kindergarten. But I went there only for a one-year, right? What was that about? Did it become
one year because we moved? Or did you choose to send me there only for one year?
Michiko: I wonder what I was thinking then.
Waka: Kazumasa also spent only a year there, too.
Michiko: Right.
Waka: How many years was kindergarten at that time?

Did most people send their children tokindergarten for 3 years?
Michiko: I don't know, I guess most parents would send their children to kindergarten for two years.
Waka: Most of the parents around you would send their children to kindergarten for two years?
Michiko: Right.
Waka: But you thought one year would be good enough.
Michiko: Yes. I did not think it would good to send my children to elementary school without letting

44

them go to kindergarten. If they did not go to kindergarten, I was afraid that they would become ones
with poor social skills like I was.
Waka: That’s what you thought.
Michiko: I thought I should send them to kindergarten at least for one year.
Waka: You sent us to kindergarten to make us children with social skills.
Michiko: Yes. My mother wanted to study so much, but she couldn't because of her environment, so
she ended up sending me through the back door to college, right?
Waka: It's amazing, isn't it, the resentment. Grandma's.
Michiko: There was me who couldn't measure up to her expectations properly. It was hard for me todo that, so I don't want to do the same to my children, but before I knew it, I was doing it.
Waka: Where did the idea of sociality come from?
Michiko: Because I don't fit in with other people.
Waka: I thought so. But you had friends in college.
Michiko: Everyone around me was kind. They weren't mean.
Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: I could have been repelled.
Waka: Because you are not sociable Or because you are a coal miner's daughter?
Michiko: I did not experience discrimination against as a miner's daughter.
Waka: It did not really matter.
Michiko: They just said they were afraid.

45

Waka: Just because they do not know (about coal mines and miners).
Michiko: They would imagine that those involved in mining would be castaways.
Waka: Such image was common…..
Michiko: Discrimination is something you gradually learn. When you are in your community, you
don't notice it.
Waka: Because no one discriminates.
Michiko: It's the same for everyone.
Waka: If you're in there, there's no way to discriminate, because they're the same. Well, then, howabout your sociality?
Michiko: I was not good at mingling with people. I still am up to now.
Waka: You did not want your children to be like that.
Michiko: Right.
Waka: But that kindergarten was Montessori, so they would allow us to play by ourselves freely. So I
doubt if I learned there to be socially skilled as you had expected me. There must be a way for us tolearn to be social, but I do not think they forced me to interact with other children.
Michiko: He came home in the mud, Kazumasa, every day.
Waka: Because, you can play alone there. Kazumasa was playing like that, right? I was eagerly doing
things like lining up the alphabet. It was a kindergarten where you were allowed to play by yourself.
It was a kindergarten where everyone was playing by themselves, but everyone was also playing
around them, and each child was respected for playing by themselves.
Michiko: Parenting, I could not do it well. I'm glad my children are more mature than I am.

46

Waka: I don't know. But Amane would say that you did it rather well, “Mom and Kazu-chan are notthat bad.” She means, we turned out to be alright as grown-ups.
Michiko: I had a grandchild, and I raised her thinking that this time I would not repeat my mistakes,
but I still made mistakes.
Waka: You sent her to English school. I mean, while I was away, you enrolled her in an international
school. It turned out to be alright that she went to the international school. Anyway, now I can see how
I was introduced to the English language.
Michiko: Because he (Tomoo) learned and used English a lot in his life.
Waka: He liked English a lot, Dad. Did he like it a lot from his college days? Dad, did he like English
conversation, etc.?
Michiko: He is self-taught, no big deal, he says he can do it.
Waka: He was studying English in places other than school.
Michiko: I think the YMCA in Sapporo worked great for him.
Waka: I agree. The YMCA in Sapporo.
Michiko: You know, he kept going there even when I was having difficulties in delivering a child.
Waka: That's right. You was visiting the United States.
Michiko: I was told that this was a difficult birth.
Waka: I saw a picture of him holding a baby over there. It’s very him that he went onto visiting theUnited States even though he knew his wife was going to give birth soon.
Michiko: And he wouldn't come in through the hospital room entrance because he was scared.
Waka: I was born alright, though.

47

Michiko: He was scared. I was hooked up to an IV. You were not born yet, I guess.
Waka: (I was not yet) born. I thought he came back to Japan after I was born.
Michiko: That's right. So, I guess you were not born yet.
Waka: So I guess it was after I was born that he came to visit the hospital, didn't he? To see the motherand child at the Hokkaido University Hospital. My grandmother was totally fine with that kind ofthing, on my mother's side. She did not mind my father’s going to the United States then.
Michiko: She was happy, indeed. She wanted to go to school, but she could not, and so…….
Waka: She thought it was wonderful. Tomoo-san is going to America, that's wonderful.
Michiko: She would say, “I've got a great son-in-law.” She would say it until she died.
Waka: She liked my father very much.
Michiko: It was unusual for her, because she was a person who would say no to everything.
Waka: Is that so?
Michiko: Yes. We are the same, right?
Waka: I'm not sure. Maybe it's because you had a hard time when you were little. Both of you.
Michiko: He is very cheerful, and he is very open-minded to anyone. Now he has changed, though.
Waka: But I think he is still a cheerful person. Well, was my grandmother very much in favor of Akkochan going to Germany?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: She studied in Germany.
Michiko: She really liked to study.

48

Waka: She studied in Germany, right?
Michiko: Yes. You know (at that time) many students wanted to enter Nara Women's University
because they admired Professor Kiyoshi Oka.
Waka: A mathematician? Right?
Michiko: He really has a great personality, doesn't he, Kiyoshi Oka? That's why she wanted to study
under his guidance. But she failed the entrance exam.
Waka: Did she want to study math? Not pharmacy?
Michiko: Mathematics. Kiyoshi Oka, it's math, right?
Waka: It's math.
Michiko: A woman who is a psychologist and often appears in the media also admired Kiyoshi Okasan and went to Nara Women's University.
Waka: So, she tried to enter Nara Women's University. Even in our generation, of course, Kiyoshi Oka
is a famous person, but at that time he was admired as someone who lived in reality.
Michiko: My sister became a pharmacist because our parents wanted her to have a professional license.
Waka: She really wanted to study math.
Michiko: Yes. But she was “rikei” (students who pursue science majors), and so she was accepted to
all the universities she applied to (except for Nara Women’s University).
Waka: She’s bright.
Michiko: But they still took 1 million in back-door money.
Waka: Maybe Akko-chan would not need that.

49

Michiko: Right, she was admitted to all the universities she applied to.
Waka: All of them accepted her.
Michiko: I doubt it. What did they do? I don't know if it's really a back door entry or not.
Waka: I'm not even sure if it was really a back door entry. It wasn't back then, was it? It was a backdoor like the front one. From now on, it is a back door.
Michiko: Maybe professors were pressured to recruit students because it was a time when students
didn't go to college that much. Like, they were told to find one student or two. So, they looked forstudents, working hard. And they took money for it.
Waka: Maybe that how it went. Parents would thank them and offer them money, and so they would
accept it. Well, then, Akko-chan stayed in Germany for three years or so?
Michiko: She did.
Waka: She did. She came back when we were in Fukushima, right? When we were in Fukushima, shecame back wearing Tyrol clothes.
Michiko: She was that kind of person.
Waka: Come to think about it, it’s amazing. She came back in an ethnic costume. That's the kind of
person she was. Where did she go in Germany? Munich?
Michiko: I don't know. I think so.
Waka: I looked it up, too, but if she was wearing Tyrol clothes, she was probably in Southern Bavaria.
Perhaps she was somewhere in the south in Germany. Also, she brought records of yodeling and stuff.
At that time, I think that yodeling music was always playing in our house.
Michiko: I think she worked at the hospital. I think she studied while working.
Waka: She studied while working.

50

Michiko: I think that’s right.
Waka: She was working there.
Michiko: I was not interested in such things at all, you know.
Waka: So you didn't ask her about details.
Michiko: To me, it’s just like she went, and she came back.
Waka: Like, she went there and returned. Did you have any contact with her while she was gone there?
Michiko: I'm sure I did. In the past, it must have been letters, right?
Waka: It must have been letters, right?
Michiko: She was so happy when Waka was born (you were born). I don't know what she named you
after. Your name.
Waka: My name?
Michiko: Yes. She took it from something in the classics.
Waka: Akko-chan named me, right?
Michiko: Right. After classics or something.
Waka: “Wa” from “heiwa” (peace), and “ka” from “kajin” (beautiful person) (in Chinese characters) .
Or was it from “wa” in “Showa”? “Wa” in “heiwa”?
Michiko: It’s from “wa” in “heiwa.”
Waka: It's from “wa” in “heiwa.” It's not from “wa” in the Showa era. She took it from the classics.
Michiko: She adored you so much.

51

Waka: Yeah. She really did. I, so, Akko-chan appears in my early childhood memories.
Michiko: The first word you learned was Akko-chan, right?
Waka: That's right.
Michiko: Not the letters such as “Okasan”, “Otosan” (Mom, Dad).
Waka: The first word I spoke was Akko-chan.
Michiko: She adored you so much.
Waka: Then, she married a little later, Akko-chan.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: There were a lot of foreign languages around me, so. German, English, and my grandfather's
mysterious Russian.
Michiko: I don't know if he spoke it well or not.
Waka: Nobody knows. I didn't know what my grandfather was saying. All we knew was that it was in
Russian. But he spoke it a lot. Even after Amane was born, he spoked it sometimes. He must havetalked a lot with Russian people. When he was in Karafuto. You were born in Karafuto, and how old
were you when you returned from there?
Michiko: Huh?
Waka: I do not know the details, but you were returnees (“hikiage-sha” from former Japanese colonies).
Michiko: Right.
Waka: Our family was one of such “hikiage-sha” families, indeed, right?
Michiko: Right.

52

Waka: When I looked it up, I found that there were several official government “hikiage” projects,
which brought the people back. You didn't come back in 1945 when the war ended. Because you wereborn in…….
Michiko: In 1944.
Waka: In 1944? It does not seem that you came back in 1945, so did you stay there a little longer?
Michiko: I don't know.
Waka: Akko-chan was not born in Sapporo.
Michiko: Over there.
Waka: Where was she born?
Michiko: In Karafuto, right.
Waka: Was Akko born in Karafuto, too?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Then, probably, you came back by one of the official repatriation projects.
Michiko: They said the baby is cute and they want it. “Leave it with us.”
Waka: Akko almost became an orphan at that time. I heard that the repatriation was hard, but neitherof them talked about it at all, so I can't really picture it. I think the government led you to Ashibetsu.
Because there were not enough coal miners. People like my grandfather were called "people with norelations," (muen-cha) and they did not know who they were connected to in Hokkaido anymore, orin Karafuto. I think that's how they were repatriated. They don't really know where they are going to
be repatriated to.
Michiko: I did not write about it here (in her notes). Oh, here comes Duskin.
Waka: Duskin is here. Well, so about that event…..

53

Michiko: I didn't write it.
WAKA: So you were there when the Soviet Union invaded. You were there when the Soviet Union
invaded, and the coal mine was taken over by them.
Michiko: I was born in Sakhalin in 1944 and repatriated to Hokkaido in 1948.
Waka: So, you returned to Hokkaido in 1948.
Michiko: How did I know this?
Waka: There were quite a few (people who returned to Hokkaido then). In the meantime, Akko-chan
was born in Karafuto?
Michiko: She was born there. There is no doubt.
Waka: It's around 1948. I think that's about right. I looked it up too, and found that most of the people
there were not able to return to Hokkaido right after the War ended. Some of them would work in themines after that, maybe they would learn how to speak Russian, too. Like, my grandfather would say,“My boss became Russian.”
Michiko: I see.
Waka: I looked it up. The Russians actually came to control them, the coal mines...Given that heworked with them for three years, it is not surprising that he learned Russian, I mean, Granpa.
Michiko: That's right.
Waka: It's strange because when I was little, I thought I had English and German, but I also had Russian.
I mean, around myself.
Michiko: I'm glad I wrote this down. Maybe I saw a copy of the family register or something, myself.
Waka: You saw it in the family register. Where was Uncle Yutaka born?

54

Michiko: I don't know, but I wonder if he was born already (when they were still in Hokkaido before
going to Karafuto). I and……
Waka: When they went to Sakhalin.
Michiko: He was old than me by three years. Amazing, how could I write this kind of thing down. I
wrote a lot.
Waka: Thanks.
(Mute)
Michiko: I think I saw the family register.
Waka: You returned (to Hokkaido) in 1948.
Michiko: I mean, my birth.
Waka: Your birth.
Michiko: I was born in 1944.
Waka: You were born in 1944.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: I understand that you moved to Karafuto in a winder historical context. So, our family migrated
twice, as settlers twice, From “Tohoku”, as so-called “kaitaku” (“pioneering” from the eyes ofcolonizers).
Michiko: Yes. From Miyagi.
Waka: So called “kaitaku.” They were from Miyagi.
Michiko: Yes.

55

Waka: Did they go to Kamifurano from Miyagi? My great-grandparents as the first settlers in ourfamily line?
Michiko: Where did they “kaikon” (cultivate land for agriculture) first? My father cultivated land in
Kamifurano, right?
Waka: In your grandfather's generation, yes. Kamifurano.
Michiko: My mother was in Naie, right?
Waka: Where?
Michiko: Naie.
Waka: How do you write it in Chinese characters?
Michiko: Na for Nara, I for Ido, and E for Edo.
Waka: Nana is the number seven?
Michiko: Naie.
Waka: The number seven?
Michiko: Nah. Na for Nara.
Waka: Nana?
Michiko: Nara, Nara Prefecture.
Waka: Nara, Nara Prefecture. Nara in Nara, well of wells?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: (confused with Chinese characters)56

Michiko: In the past, it was Bibai City, Sorachi County.
Waka: I know Biba.
Michiko: Naie, E for Edo.
Waka: Sorry, not Naiya, Naie.
Michiko: My mother is from Naie.
Waka: My grandmother is from Naie.
Michiko: It's Naie in Bibi, right?
Waka: Bibai town now.
Michiko: Isn't Bibai City now? At that time, Bibai City, anyway.
Waka: Bibai City, OK.
Michiko: Naie, Bibai City. My mother cultivated land there.
Waka: I cultivated land here.
Michiko: His father did.
Waka: My grandmother's father cultivated the land, Naie.
Michiko: So my father did it. I'm starting to remember.
Waka: Wow.
Michiko: Kamifurano.

57

Waka: My grandfather's grandfather4 was in Kamifurano.
Michiko: So, there's a big incident at their thatched house.
Waka: There was a big fire that burned down their house.
Michiko: It's hard, isn't it?
Waka: That was a great trauma.
Michiko: He never told us about it until he died.
Waka: I would imagine.
Michiko: I never knew until I heard about it from my auntie.
Waka: Auntie can say it, but Grandpa can't.
Michiko: My aunt heard about it too. She wasn’t born yet (at the time of the fire).
Waka: She can say it because she is not traumatized. If she had actually experienced it, she might not
be able to say it, because she is too scared.
Michiko: That's why he went crazy and ended up in jail.
Waka: My great-grandfather?
Michiko: Yes.
Michiko: Isn't this story the climax?
Waka: You mean, when I write a story?
Michiko: No, not really.
4

Confused. It should be “father.”58

Waka: When I will write a story (based on this series of interviews)…..I mean, there were many things
that happened in Japanese history. Interesting. So, there were colonial rules in Karafuto. It’s reallysomething that you lived there. Some kind of colonial rule has happened in Hokkaido, too. The Ainu
people had been there (before the Japanese settlers came).
Michiko: It's strange, isn't it, alienating the Ainu?
Waka: It's really doesn’t make sense at all.
Michiko: It's true. Unfair laws were made, one after another.
Waka: In those days.
Michiko: That's really unfair.
WAKA: Yes, that's right, until recently there was. Like the old Native People's Protection Act. It wasthere until really recently.
Michiko: It’s very rude.
Waka: Really. Grandpa's story about the Russian coal mines also talks about how he felt so sorry for
the Koreans.
Michiko: Did he say that?
Waka: He did. I only recorded his stories twice. Unfortunately, I lost that recording. It's a shame. I wasa child, so I couldn't manage it properly, so I lost it. But I remember his saying that. There wasdiscrimination in his workplace. The Russian people were the top, the Japanese people were the bottom,
and the Korean people were looked down upon. But now that the war is over, they are no longer
Japanese (“shinmin” or subjects of the Imperial Japan), right?
Michiko: So (Tokyo Metropolitan Governor) Koike-san would not attend (war and disaster related)
events (for the Koreans).
Waka: I personally think we should take responsibility because historically speaking we have done a59

lot of bad things.
Michiko: So it think she should attend such memorial events…..
Waka: I agree.
Michiko: She should stop false statement of her academic career.
Waka: Her effort to hide that is so great. And the effort not to prove it, too.
Michiko: True, it was amazing. I read the last issue of Bungeishunju (monthly magazine), and those
close to her are revealing it.
Waka: What? Her false statement of educational background?
Michiko: Yes. They wrote it very clearly. You know, there are more important issues than this one.
Waka: I think it's really bad. I think it is more important to clarify her academic fraud than to reportwhat Renho said or did. But somehow, she can escape it, for she is in a position of power.
Michiko: The fact that she does it so openly is amazing.
Waka: She knows the truth, I suppose.
Michiko: Her classmates have published books (about her academic career and so on), and even though
they are bestsellers, it's still like this.
Waka: They say they know the truth.
Michiko: And they are not anonymous.
Waka: You mean they take responsibility for those articles.
Michiko: I am also an academic fraud in that sense.
Waka: That's not fraudulent. You graduated.

60

Michiko: I have a diploma, but I don't have any substance. I think it's similar.
Waka: If you say that, there are many such people.
Michiko: That's why I can't criticize Koike-san openly.
Waka: I think that's very different. It's like if you finish college and they issue you a certificate. You
would be issued a certificate, if you went to college. In your case, you actually graduated.
Michiko: Koike-san never shows her diploma.
Waka: So I think it's a totally different story.
Michiko: That's great. So that's what it means to have power.
Waka: It tells us what power means in this country.
Michiko: But she also does what she is supposed to, no matter what they say. She has done three ofthe seven (policies she has promised).
Waka: But I do not know if she has announced her campaign pledge clearly enough. It seems that she
is saying she is busy doing her job as Governor.
Michiko: Now, we are going off topic.
Waka: That's fine, we can talk about those things as well. It was interesting to talk about education. I
was wondering why I can speak English.
Michiko: It's the flip side of my inferiority complex. It's been that way for generations. My mother
wanted to go (to college), but she couldn't, so she left it to her children.
Waka: In the end, Amane ended up going to an international school, right?
Michiko: If we get a copy of the family register, we can find out right away.

61

Waka: That's fine, just roughly.
Michiko: Really?
Waka: It’s not a research to verify every detail.
Michiko: Can something like this be a book?
Waka: I'll let the transcripts of interviews “sleep” for a while. There's also a story about Clara. My
editor says, "It can be thick." I say, "Shall I shorten it?" Because if you transcribe it in 50 minutes, it's
usually 12,000 or 14,000 letters, so if there are seven of them, that's about 100,000 letters. When I
asked him if he wanted me to edit it, he said, "I'm thinking of making it thicker than you think”. But I
don't think I'll write it right now. I think I'll have to let it “sleep” for a while to figure it out. I'll go to
Fukushima, Hokkaido, etc., and then I'll see. I am also thinking about whether or not to write under
my real name.
Michiko: It's true.
Waka: Maybe I should make it look like fiction. I am currently writing another essay suggested by myeditor, but it is like a fiction, I am not exactly writing about myself. It's based on my own experiences,
but if I make it really about myself, there are things that are difficult to write about. Other people are
involved, too. So I have made it fiction. You can make it fiction. Recently, it has become more
acceptable to do that even in research. So, I write in a fictional way.
Michiko: It could be too much, if you write it as a non-fiction.
Waka: Hm?
Michiko: Non-fiction is too graphic.
Waka: In nonfiction, I think you have to do more research. On the other hand, in order to make themost of the vividness, you have to research facts and other information in a more historically detailed
manner.
Michiko: True.

62

Waka: You have to cross-check with various references. This time it's not about that, it's about theexperience of what it was like. I'm talking about how my mother’s life has been from her point of view.
Michiko：That's why it's interesting to read about the Oya something award (Oya Soichi Nonfiction
Award) and the writings of those who won it.
Waka: They went into great detail. This book is not non-fiction. It's more like……
Michiko: Not many people write nonfiction now.
Waka: The number of such writers is decreasing?
Michiko: Don't you think so?
Waka: I don't know, but that’s what you say.
Michiko: I think non-fiction is interesting.
Waka: Nonfiction has a different goal. In this project of ours, it is about what happens when you shareyour life between me and you as my mother, or me and Clara. It's more in the genre so-called “kikigaki” (listening and writing). I think Kazue Morisaki, Michiko Ishimure, and Kazuko Fujimoto haveshown a methodology that can be applied to this project. The method is to focus on narratives that
happen between the two people (a narrator and a listener).
Michiko: You are going to contrast, right?
Waka: Yes, I think so. I think it's a natural contrast. In the Philippines, there is their own historicalcontext. But somehow, Mindanao is located in the south, and they (Clara’s family) migrated from thenorth, from Cebu. There were indigenous peoples in Mindanao, and they (people like Clara’s family)
took the land from them and settled there. So two of you (Clara and Michiko) have in common is thatthey are the children of settlers.
Michiko: She (Clara) is a forward-looking person, the one in the Philippines. I am backward-looking.
Waka: She was from a poor family, financially speaking. They had no money at all. In Clara's case,she really wanted to go to college, so she worked very hard. She raised the money by herself.

63

Michiko: It could be interesting, because we are totally different.
Waka: I think it's interesting.
Michiko: Isn't that the price of a parental complex? It's the opposite.
Waka: Over there (in Clara’s case), the parents did not recognize the value of education beyond
elementary school, but she thought to herself, "If I don't go to school, what will happen to my life in
the rural areas?
Michiko: It's interesting.
Waka: Interesting contrast there.
Michiko: Interesting.
Waka: The periods of your lives do not overlap at all, but when you look at the period of Japan's
modernization and the Philippines' modernization, they do overlap. Your ages are different, but thePhilippines grew economically later, so in that sense, there is an overlap.
Michiko: About “hitomawari” (10-12 years) different?
Waka: Hm?
Michiko: About “hitomawari” different?
Waka: I think she turns 67, this year.
Michiko: She is much younger.
Waka: Because the Philippines is growing economically now, since about 2000.
Michiko: Our age gap is 13 years, almost “hitomawari” apart.
Waka: So, just about right. The period of modernization of the Philippine economy, think about it.

64

Michiko: It is about a person with lots of complexes and a person with lots of positive thinking. That’s
nice.
Waka: Indeed. I'm not sure how to write about it. That's all for today. Thank you very much. I'll end
now.
Michiko: Recording. You can turn it off.
Waka: After I turn it off. Thank you very much.
(End)65