2024

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―2回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―2 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2024 年 1 月 15 日（月）13:00-13:50 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****
ワカ： お願いします。

ミチコ： 炭鉱は 4 軒長屋。4 軒長屋は、連なってたんだわ。それで 2 階建ての 4 軒長屋。
で、トイレは外。夜、怖いから 3 人きょうだいで兄と妹と私と 3 人で外のトイレ、行くんだ
けど真冬はつるつる滑って、便器に落ちそうになって落ちたこともあるし、怖いから手を握り合って 3 人きょうだい、お手洗い、行った。トイレが一番、嫌だった。だから、おねしょ
ばっかりしてた。みんなでおねしょ、代わる代わるしてた、トイレ、怖くて。

ワカ： そうだったんだ。トイレ、怖くてね。

ミチコ： トイレ、行きたくないから。朝、起きたら、慌ててお尻の下に手、やって、きょ
うはやってない、やったって感じで。真っ暗で滑るトイレは怖いな。あと、お風呂は地域の長屋の人たちがみんなで行く大きなお風呂があって、そこで管理人がいて、管理人さんがお風呂、沸かして、薬湯っていって浴場の片隅に、なんか分からないけど入浴剤みたいなの、入るんでしょうね、真っ白な。そこでよく、おしっこしたり、うんこしたり、ぷくぷくって浮いてきてびっくりすることが何回もあって、赤ちゃんがいて。

ワカ： 赤ちゃんがね。

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1ミチコ： いや、大人かな、いや、赤ちゃんかな。そんなんで、きゃあって感じで。私は栄養失調だから、しゅって貧血、起こして戸板に乗せられて長屋に帰ったってこと、よくあった。お風呂の板を張った所に、熱湯の所にそこの従業員か誰かが落ちて亡くなったって事件もあった。それはやっぱり痛々しかったね。ボイラーが沸いたのかな、どうしたのかな。お風呂に行くときに、夏は何もつらくなかったけど、冬は滑るから、長屋から線路を渡ってそのお風呂に行くんだけれど、そこは線路、ちょっと坂になってて。この前、話したと思う。
母が転んで。それとか、あと、何かちょっとぬれたもの、さっとやったら板になっちゃう。
あと、お正月とかお盆とか、お小遣い、もらうと商店に行って。1 円、2 円じゃなくて何銭、5 銭っていうの、あったような気がするんだけどな。そこでお菓子を買って、楽しかっ
た。お祭りは『炭坑節』で。だから『炭坑節』で育ったようなもんだわ。
『出た出た、月が出た、あ、よいよい』っていう。それはすごく今でも誰か、歌わないかなと思って。

ワカ： あれ、炭鉱の歌なんだ。

ミチコ： 『炭坑節』。スマホでこの前、やったら、なんと『炭坑節』が誰か歌ってた。あれ、三橋美智也？ やってみようかな。
『炭坑節』なの。

ワカ： 『炭坑節』。

ミチコ： 『炭坑節』で育ったんだよね。クラシックじゃないの。

ワカ： いつもお祭りのときに歌ってた？

ミチコ： お祭りのとき。
『炭坑節』。

自動音声 ウィキペディアからの情報です。
『炭鉱節』は福岡県に伝わる民謡である。

ミチコ： 『出た出た、月が出た、あ、よいよい』、あ、三橋美智也が歌ってる。あったの。

ワカ： これ、三橋美智也さんが歌ってる『炭坑節』を探して聴いたんだ。

ミチコ： 今、聞いたのね、懐かしくて。
『炭坑節』、あるんだ。

ワカ： これはずっと聞いてたわけ？

ミチコ： みんなが、炭鉱の人って隣もうちも全部、自分の家だから、鍵を掛けることもな

2

いし、隣の家も向かいの家も一つだから。だから普通に集まってみんながご飯、食べて、歌っていうと『炭坑節』が。だから『炭坑節』が身にしみちゃってる。そうだ、『炭坑節』、懐
かしいわね。

ワカ： 普段もご飯は人の家でもう食べるってこと？ ていうか自分の家なんだ。

ミチコ： 人の家でも、あそこのハルコさん、人の家でご飯、食べてるよ。だってみんな、
一番方、二番方、三番方って時間差でしょう。

ワカ： 時間差だよね。

ミチコ： だからみんな、出掛けてない所、あ、捨てちゃったかな。

ワカ： 出掛けてない所に行ってご飯、食べる。

ミチコ： 何となく、決まってはいない。あれ、これじゃないか。これじゃないよね。

ワカ： 出掛けてない所で。でもそこはお父さん、寝てんじゃなくて？

ミチコ： 寝てないうち。

ワカ： 寝てないうちに行くんだ。

ミチコ： これじゃないかもしれないよね。

ワカ： 『チーズとツルツルごはん』。これ、何だっけ。
『私の思い出。あの日あの味』っていう本に載せてもらったやつ。選ばれて載ったやつ。

ミチコ： これ、そうね。やっぱりそうだよね。

ワカ： じゃあ、この話、してもらおうかな。

ミチコ： 父が採炭夫だから 4 軒長屋に住んでて、それで 4 軒長屋の 2 軒隣に、何、ヒデコ
先生、優秀の秀だった？ ヒデコ先生がご両親と住んでて、先生、背筋がしっかり伸びてかっこよかった、きりっとして。私は勉強嫌いだから、学校、行ってやらないっていつもぐずってた。それでヒデコ先生がご両親に送られて、行ってきますって出てくると、私は恥ずか3

しくなって、学校なんか行ってられないと思いっ切り叫んだ。ヒデコ先生は手をつないで、学校、連れていってくれたんだけど、ちょっと恥ずかしかったけどいい感じだった。だからぐずらなくなっちゃった。
ヒデコ先生のおうちで朝ご飯、食べるってなる、しょっちゅうだった。ぐずぐず言った日
も 2 歳から 6 歳まで男女 5 人だもんね。
小鉢に卵が二つで 5 人均等にご飯にかけてもらう。
おしょうゆ、こぼさないようにって緊張しておしょうゆ、かけたわ。でも、2 個で 5 人で分けるから、2 歳のエッちゃんがつるつるご飯、食べたいって言ったの。そしたら、そんなぜ
いたくなことはできないし、先生もつるつるご飯、食べたいって自分のお茶わんを両手で高く持ち上げたの、頭より。おいしいものって子どもだけが食べたいと思ったら、大人もおいしいもの、食べたいのね。それで(＃＃＃＃＠00:08:16)、そうなんだ。

ワカ： ヒデコ先生も食べたいんだみたいな。

ミチコ： 子どもの頃。

ワカ： 子ども心にびっくりしたの。大人も食べたいんだと。

ミチコ： だからヒデコ先生は珍しい食べ物、あると、長屋の人たちに分けてくれるの。

ワカ： ヒデコ先生の子どもではなくて？ その 5 人っていうの。

ミチコ： 近所。長屋の子どもたち。あっちの家からこっちの家で。

ワカ： 近所の子たちと集まって 5 人ね。

ミチコ： ヒデコ先生はご両親と住んでる、3 人暮らしで。だからみんながみんな炭鉱夫じゃないけど、ヒデコ先生のお父さんは炭鉱に勤めてたの。チーズも、ヒデコ先生、チーズもらうでしょう、どっかから。そうすると分けてくれるの。みんなでせっけんみたいな形の、あれ、何色？ オレンジの(＊＊＊＊コウジョウ＠00:09:13)だったのかな。せっけんみたいだった。最初にかじったの、私なのね。せっけんみたいな味するって言ったら、妹がびっくりした顔で、せっけん食べたことあるの、せっけん食べたの？って何度も聞いてきたの。そうだ、せっけんみたいな味って、せっけん、食べたことないけど、せっけんみたいな味がしたの。妹、真面目だから。いや、ないけど、やっぱりせっけんの味がするって私、本気で答えたよね。甘くて苦くて、外国の味で。畑の匂いもしたし。大人も子どももわいわい、がや
がやとチーズ談義を始めたの。おいしいようなそうでないような、不思議なハイカラな味だ
ったな、チーズね。

4ワカ： チーズ、初めて食べた？

ミチコ： 初めて食べた。でもせっけんの味よね、あれは。せっけん、食べたことないのに。

ワカ： どうしてそう思ったんだろうね。

ミチコ： 不思議よね。

ワカ： ヒデコ先生っていう人がいたんだ。

ミチコ： 小学校の先生。そうだ、懐かしいな。だから何か言っても、ヒデコ先生が言ったって言うと、親がきりっとなるの。ヒデコ先生が言ってたよって言うの。句読点の使い方とか違うと、みんながすぐ、ヒデコ先生の所、聞きに行くの、大人も子どもも。それでヒデコ先生に正しいことを教わる。ヒデコ先生は小学校の職場以外にも長屋の先生でもあった。

ワカ： 長屋の先生でもあったんだ。

ミチコ： ちょっと庶民的な所に雰囲気が違って、ぴりっとしてよかったわ。優しくて。

ワカ： ヒデコ先生は長屋に暮らしてないの？

ミチコ： 長屋に、だから、お父さんが炭鉱に勤めてるから。

ワカ： が、勤めてるけど職員さんじゃなくて採炭夫だったの？ お父さん。

ミチコ： お父さん、採炭夫。

ワカ： お父さん、採炭夫で子どもは教師なんだ。

ミチコ： みんな、尊敬してるよね。それで偉ぶりもしないし、要するに普通に。だからみんなヒデコ先生の言うこと、命令もしないし。まだ若かったな。ヒデコ先生だって 20 歳前
後じゃないの？ あの頃って。代用教員とかあったもんね。それがよく分からないけど。でもあの田舎で女学校、出る人って少ないから。尋常小学校でしょう。私の両親だって尋常小学校って何だかよく分かんないけど、尋常小学校出だし。

5

ワカ： そもそも卒業してたっけ、おじいちゃんとか。

ミチコ： してないんじゃないかな。

ワカ： してないよね、多分、おばあちゃんもね。

ミチコ： 読み書きできないもんね。

ワカ： あの 2 人、おばあちゃんは読み書きできたけど、おじいちゃんは読み書きできない？

ミチコ： うん。まるっきりできないわけじゃないけれども。体、使うことが得意だったね。

ワカ： おじいちゃんね。

ミチコ： 炭鉱の生活、人との交わりが楽しかったのかな。それで海水浴なんて海なんかな
いから、川に行ってはしゃいでたわ。私、怖いからそういうの、しなかった。

ワカ： 川があったんだ。

ミチコ： でも別格の世界の人が、この前、話した職員さんの所にピアノがあって。

ワカ： 場所が違うんでしょう？

ミチコ： 違う。全然、長屋じゃない。一軒家ですもん。

ワカ： 長屋があって、一軒家は別の所にある？

ミチコ： ある。高台だったような気がする。気持ちがそうだったのかな。高台のような気がして。

ワカ： 高台にあったんだ。

ミチコ： それは職員さんよね。事務系っていうのかしらね。

ワカ： 多分ね。

6ミチコ： だから炭鉱で別格と思われたのは、駐在所のお巡りさん。それから職員さん。職員が一番、みんな畏敬の目で見てたわ。だけどお巡りさんも職員さんも、ごく普通に接してたな。特別、上からなんか言うこともないし、いい感じだったわ。

ワカ： いい感じだったんだ。

ミチコ： そこのうちから、どこどこの大学行ったって言うと、やっぱりってなるの。

ワカ： 職員さんの所から？

ミチコ： とか、お巡りさんの所とか、あそこのうちから岩手大学、入った。岩大に入った、
すごい、ぱちぱちってみんなで喜ぶの。

ワカ： そういう話、するんだ。

ミチコ： そう、した。日本大学よりも東京大学が低いって思ってる人が、いっぱいいたの。
東京と日本だと、東京のほうが都市だからって。日本大学だって日本だから、日本のほうが偉いとかってそれくらいの認識だった。今、思ったら。

ワカ： 今、思うと、みんなが思ってたのは、そういう世界だった。東京帝国大学とかじゃない。

ミチコ： だんだん、北大はすごいんだってことになって、それでだんだん東京大学の価値が分かってきたとか、時代とともに。

ワカ： 時代とともにね。その頃は全然、そんな。

ミチコ： だから学歴ある人はほとんどいなかったね。職員さんくらいで。だんだん、その子どもたちがそういう学校、行くようになって、みんな、認識、変わったの。

ワカ： それは何歳ぐらい？

ミチコ： あれは 10 歳前後かしらね。そういうの、分かるようになってきたの。

ワカ： そもそもお母さん、炭鉱、何歳まで住んでたんだっけ。

7

ミチコ： 大学進学って札幌から行ったんだから、いや、違うな。

ワカ： 実家はもう札幌だったの？ 大学のとき。もう時計屋さんだったの？

ミチコ： 大学進学のときは、まだ炭鉱にいたんだ。商店。

ワカ： まだ炭鉱にいたんだ。まだ商店じゃなかったんだ、うち。

ミチコ： 父が肺をやられて、炭じんで。それで退職して、商店街に土地を借りたのかしら、買ったのかしら。そこで住居兼、時計、眼鏡、何だっけ、もう一つ。

ワカ： 宝石？

ミチコ： そう。そのお店を開いたの。

ワカ： それはお母さんが大学生のとき？

ミチコ： 大学、行く前だ。そこから大学なったから。そうだ、思い出した。

ワカ： 大学、行く前ぐらいなんだ、それが。

ミチコ： 私が結婚した頃に閉山になって、そこで。

ワカ： 結婚したってことは 24 歳ぐらいのときに閉山になったってこと？

ミチコ： だよね。調べれば分かるか。

ワカ： 調べれば、もちろん分かる。芦別のだよね。三井炭鉱でしょう。

ミチコ： そこで商店街になって、それで進駐軍のアメリカ兵とかが、いっぱい時計、置いてったり売ったり、そういうのを父がまとめて買って、動くようにして売って、それで財は成した。ものすごい器用だから。

ワカ： 確かに。習ったこともないのに財を成したんだよね。

8ミチコ： だから税金もいっぱい払ってたし。お酒の話もしたもんね。

ワカ： お酒ね。捕まった話でしょう。

ミチコ： 脱税はなかったんだけど。

ワカ： 捕まったんじゃなくて、あれ？ 脱税してなかったけど、どぶろく、造ってたんだ。

ミチコ： 同業者が密告して、あんまり景気がいいから。

ワカ： 嫉妬されたってこと？

ミチコ： 多分。密告して。それ、出なくて、国税局も出てきて、それでも脱税は嫌疑かからなくて。それよりも家中、探されたら、地下に。

ワカ： お酒、出てきた。

ミチコ： どぶろくを、お酒を造ってたの。それでものすごい税金、いっぱい払ったの。密造ってことになる。

ワカ： どぶろくって密造酒だったから、それで税金を払った。

ミチコ： 器用だから、そういうの、みんなでおいしいって飲んで。

ワカ： あげてたんでしょう、近所の人。

ミチコ： 悪いことは知ってたんでしょうね。だって、地下でやってたんだから。多分、聞いてないけれど、そうだと思う。

ワカ： 密造酒。

ミチコ： 分からないもんよね。なんで捕まるか。

ワカ： 捕まったっていうよりは罰金っていうか。罰金じゃない、税金を追徴されたってこと？ もちろん罰金も払ったんだよね、きっと。

9ミチコ： いい匂いするって言ってたね、国税局の人が。

ワカ： どぶろくのいい匂いする。

ミチコ： あと、どぶろくでないときは秋田かな、青森かな、リンゴを、余市かしら。余市ってリンゴがいっぱい取れるの。余市から木箱でリンゴをいっぱい仕入れて、地下に、地下っていうのかな、そこにいっぱい積んで、それを売ってた、母が。

ワカ： リンゴ売ってたんだ。

ミチコ： 時計とは別に木箱で。

ワカ： リンゴを売ってた。

ミチコ： 大きい家だったから、そこに行商の人が来て、この前の裏口入学の話。

ワカ： 行商の人は、何を行商して。

ミチコ： 洋服。

ワカ： 洋服？

ミチコ： 1 週間なら 1 週間、泊まっていくの。

ワカ： 洋服、どっから持ってくるんだろう。

ミチコ： 旭川。

ワカ： 旭川から持ってくるんだ。

ミチコ： 父も時計、貴金属、仕入れに行くときは旭川に行って。

ワカ： 旭川で仕入れて札幌で売るの？

ミチコ： ううん。芦別。

10ワカ： まだ芦別か。ごめん。じゃあ、私が生まれた札幌っていうのは、ずっと後の話で。
そのときは芦別の商店街にお店を出したっていうこと。そうすると、それ、炭鉱町の中？

ミチコ： 中。中心。

ワカ： 中の中心の商店街に出してた。じゃあ、芦別にいたのは結構、長いんだ。

ミチコ： 長いよね、長い。

ワカ： 札幌っていつ出てったの？ ちなみに。

ミチコ： 高校進学だから 15？

ワカ： お母さんが出てったの、お母さんが 15 のときでしょう。わが家が札幌に行ったの。
私、札幌生まれじゃん。

ミチコ： 私たちが、あ、そうか。北大に行きたいからって札幌にアパートを借りたんだ、
友雄さんが。

ワカ： 結婚しましたって札幌にアパート、借りましたって、そのとき、実家は芦別だったの？

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： じゃあ、芦別、すごい長いんだ。私が思ってたより、ずっと芦別だった。

ミチコ： だって大学生のときは。

ワカ： 芦別に帰ってたんだよね。

ミチコ： そうだよ。そうだ、長いんだ。

ワカ： おじいちゃん、おばあちゃんが札幌に引っ越してきたときって、私は生まれてたときだよね。あのときもまだ芦別にいた？

ミチコ： 生まれてないでしょう。

11ワカ： 生まれる前に札幌に来てる、おじいちゃんたち。

ミチコ： 家、できてから。

ワカ： 家を建てたのはおじいちゃんとおばあちゃん、建てた。

ミチコ： そこにアパート、引き払って私たちも一緒に。

ワカ： で、お店もやる。

ミチコ： 生活もして。

ワカ： お店もやる。同じように時計屋さん、やってた。そういうことか。

ミチコ： 上が住居で下が時計屋。要するに父と母は時計屋をやって、その隣にラーメン屋さん、貸して。2 階は部屋貸し。三つぐらいあったのかな。

ワカ： なんだかんだいって裕福だったんだよね。じゃあ、芦別が長いんだ。

ミチコ： 炭鉱の生活は人情味があって、ただ、今も思うけど朝鮮人の人と、それからアイヌの人を蔑視してたってことは今もよく分かんないな。

ワカ： 炭鉱の町の中の人たちが蔑視してた。炭鉱には朝鮮の人もいた？

ミチコ： いや、いなかったと思うけど、いたんでしょうね。あの人は何とかだからっていう話を、店だからいろんな人が来て、いろんなことを話すから、そうすると子ども心にも、なんで朝鮮の人で、なんでアイヌの人でってあんなに言われなきゃいけない。だってアイヌの人なんてすごい目がぱっちりして、私、目が何もないから、ちっちゃくて。だからいいなと思ったけど、そんなこと、言える雰囲気じゃなかった。目がぱっちりしてすてきねとか、
そんなこと言ったら周りに、ものすごい怒られたと思う。

ワカ： 実際にアイヌの人もいた？ 芦別って。

ミチコ： いなかったと思うけども。

12ワカ： なぜか話題になるんだ。

ミチコ： どうしてあんなに、いまだに分からない、この二つは。本当に朝鮮人とアイヌの人に区別っていうか、なんでだろう。本当に分かんない。すごいすてきよ。でもアイヌの人
なんて髪の毛、真っ黒で。目、ぱっちりして、お口だってかっこいいし。そういうの、あっ
たな。

ワカ： 東京に来たらなかったの？ やっぱりそれは北海道。

ミチコ： 東京に出てきたら小説のあれなんでしょうね。炭鉱の人は怖いと思ったって、この前、話してくれた。

ワカ： 逆にびっくりした？

ミチコ： 区別されるんだと思ったけど。

ワカ： 炭鉱に住んでるときは、全然、自分たちがどういうイメージ、持たれてるか知らかなった。

ミチコ： 全然。

ワカ： 全然、知らなかった。

ミチコ： 逆にアイヌと朝鮮の人を差別してたでしょう。その二つぐらいでしょう。そんな満遍なく、あの人もこの人も差別するってことはなかったもん。みんな平等って感じだった。

ワカ： みんな平等って感じだった。いろんなバックグラウンドの人がいたんでしょう。サハリンから引き上げてきた人もいれば、他の所から引き上げてきた人とかもいた。

ミチコ： 犯罪者の流れだと思うらしいけども、そんなことないんじゃない。あったのかな。
あんまり詮索しないもんね。

ワカ： 取りあえずお互い、あんまり詮索しない社会だった。でも、大体、外部から来た人たちだった。

ミチコ： 結構、おおらかだった。でも、新婚さんの部屋をみんなでのぞいて、大人が。で、13

丸になったとか何とか。みんなでこそこそ言うの、私、ダンボの耳で聞いてた。

ワカ： ダンボの耳で聞いてたの。大人が新婚さんのお部屋をのぞき見するの？ 長屋だからできる。

ミチコ： 子どもはみんな、見てるもんね。ダンボになってたな。

ワカ： ダンボになって聞いてたんだ。芦別って炭鉱町が全てって感じ。他に。

ミチコ： 芦別っていう所から、しゅっぽしゅっぽの蒸気機関車に乗って、緑泉、頼城ってあるわけ。

ワカ： 緑泉（ろくせん）って駅の名前？ で、頼城も駅の名前？ 二つ、違う名前。

ミチコ： うん。その前のあったけど、忘れたから、全部。

ワカ： それ、いくつか駅がある？

ミチコ： ある。

ワカ： その駅が炭鉱町なの。芦別市の中のそこが炭鉱町？

ミチコ： 芦別市から蒸気機関車で。駅なんかはこれに写ってるかもしれないね、緑泉の駅。
緑泉、こんなちっちゃかったな。

ワカ： ちっちゃい駅だったの。

ミチコ： 後から行ったら、駅があってバス停になってたの。

ワカ： バス停になってた。後から、いつ頃？

ミチコ： 70 ぐらいのときかな。兄と一緒に。

ワカ： お母さんが 70 歳ぐらいのとき。

ミチコ： 私が 70 ぐらいよね。

14ワカ： 行ったらバス停になってた？ 電車じゃなくて。

ミチコ： 芦別から頼城に出るのに陸橋があって、そこに蒸気機関車がこうあって、すごい
懐かしい、いい風景だった。どうしても行きたくなって兄と行ったんだけど。

ワカ： どんな感じだった？ 行ったとき。

ミチコ： 思ったより商店街、ちいちゃかったし、あと両親が建てた家がそのままあったってことが衝撃だった。

ワカ： あったの？ 商店街のその家。誰か別の人が住んでた？

ミチコ： そうだって。

ワカ： じゃあ、引き継がれてったんだ。

ミチコ： でも商店はどこもやってなかったの。

ワカ： やってなかったけど、家として住んでた？

ミチコ： 住んでた。その隣が雑貨屋さんだったの。そこにクニコさんって邦人の邦。邦子
さんって天女のように美しい人がいたの。色白で性格も優しくて、理想的な。その人は、そこのおうちに子どもがいないから、妹の子どもが邦子さんで、邦子さん、あそこに養女に入ったんだけど、だけど邦子さんが好きになった人が、これまたすごいすてきなんだけど、結婚して、許されるも許されないも、とにかく養子にさせられて生活したんだけど、女の子 1
人、産んだら追い出されちゃったの、婿が。働かないっつって。

ワカ： 働かない人だって言われて追い出されちゃったのか。

ミチコ： 邦子さん、かわいそう。美人薄命だよね。まだ生きてるのかな。

ワカ： それが雑貨屋さんの思い出、隣の。

ミチコ： その後に、またもう一人、男の人が来て、後で私が 70 になって訪ねたときは、
その 2 番目の人、本当に優しかった。

15

ワカ： 邦子さん、まだそこ、住んでたんだ、お母さんが 70 で行ったとき。2 番目の旦那さんと一緒に。

ミチコ： ううん。交通事故で早くに亡くなっちゃって。だから人が、あれは全然、愛情がないよってみんな、言ってたけど、炭鉱の人たちは。でも 50 年も何十年もたったら、聞いたわけじゃないんだけど、本当に優しくて大事にしてくれてる。

ワカ： 2 番目の人。

ミチコ： だから分かんない、人の気持ちって。周りはわいわい言う、邦子さん、口数、少ないから。炭鉱物語だわ。

ワカ： 炭鉱物語。でも、邦子さんは閉山してもそこに住んでたってこと？

ミチコ： 住んでた、1 人で。娘さんはいろんな人にだまされて、男の人、何人もだまされて、いっぱい借金つくって何千万も邦子さん、お金、ほら、交通事故の補償金とか、いっぱいあるから。

ワカ： 補償金とかいっぱいあったんだ、当時。

ミチコ： 交通事故だから。

ワカ： 交通事故だから？

ミチコ： そういうのもあったし。

ワカ： 2 人目の旦那さんが交通事故で亡くなったから、補償金がきたってこと？

ミチコ： だと思う。相続も一人っ子だからお金、何千万も娘のあれに払ったって。底、突いたら、銀行員になってた 2 番目の人の子どもが、その人が一生懸命、払ってたって。今はそば屋さんの住み込みしてるって、その娘さん。

ワカ： 娘さん、北海道のどこかで？

ミチコ： 札幌だって言ってた。

16

ワカ： 炭鉱物語だね。炭鉱の人のその後、みたいな。商店街の人はみんな、炭鉱関係者だったの？

ミチコ： そうだよね。もともと、炭鉱夫でなったっていうのは、邦子さんのうちと、うちの父ぐらいで、あとはみんな、ただ、そこに商店、出してた。だから、お金は持ってたんじゃ。

ワカ： 炭鉱だからチャンスあるから、そこでお店、開いてたってこと。

ミチコ： 炭鉱だって、ものすごいお給料、良かったもん。それでひと月に 1000 円なら 1000
円、積み立てして、また忘れちゃった。

ワカ： 積み立てる？

ミチコ： それでその日はすごい楽しみなの。お菓子がいっぱい、みんな毎月、家が変わって、なんつったかな。何がけって。思い出したら言うわ。今もやってんでしょうね。みんなでお金を出して、当たった人がその月、10 万なら 10 万、借りて、もっとちっちゃいお金だと思う、昔だから。

ワカ： 分かる。頼母子講みたいな。

ミチコ： それ。それがお菓子をみんなで分けて持って帰るけど、いいよ、ミッちゃんって置いていく人がいて、その日はすっごい楽しみだった、お菓子。

ワカ： 頼母子講をやってたんだ。それって子どももやってた？

ミチコ： 子どもは自分の家でやれば、見てるから。大人がやってた。

ワカ： 大人がやってるけど、子どもはそれを見て、うちが当たるかどうかっていうのを、すごい見てたわけ。

ミチコ： 私の両親が、最後の最後に当たんなくていいからって感じだった。

ワカ： うちは当たんなくてもいいからやってた。取りあえず 1000 円、出すみたいな。1000円って当時でいったら、どのくらいか、結構。

17ミチコ： みんな死んじゃったから分かんないもんね、聞くにも。あ、無尽。

ワカ： 無尽。そうだ、頼母子講じゃない、無尽。ごめんなさい、違いがよく分かんない。

ミチコ： 分かんないでしょう。同じでしょう。無尽って無いに尽きるから。

ワカ： 無いに尽きる。だから大きいお金を使えるように順番で。

ミチコ： 後になればなるほど、いいんじゃなかったのかな。

ワカ： 無尽してたんだ、みんなで。

ミチコ： 商店街でね。

ワカ： 商店街のメンバーで無尽してた。

ミチコ： 裕福だから、そっから大学、行く人も出てきて。それで日本大学と東京大学の違いもだんだん、みんな、分かってきた。

ワカ： 分かってきたんだ。情報、入って。

ミチコ： 私なんか幼稚園もなかったから、幼稚園も行ったことないし。

ワカ： 幼稚園って何？みたいな。

ミチコ： 2 年、後に生まれた妹は幼稚園、行ったけど。そうだ、そんなこと、あったな。
無尽、やってた。

ワカ： 商店街、何人ぐらい？ 何軒ぐらい？

ミチコ： 10 軒、あったかな。自転車屋さん、時計屋、それから魚屋さん、おいしかったね。それから本屋さん、それから雑貨屋さんが 2 軒ぐらいかしら。あと薬屋さん。思い出しても 6 軒、7 軒あった、向かい合わせに。いろんな人間模様があって、この前、話したと思うけど、洋服屋さんかな。そこに身寄りのない親戚がいて、おばさんがいて、誰のおばさん
か分かんないけど、そこに暮らしてたの。話したと思う。すごく大事にして、いいな、お金

18

持ちのおばあちゃんがいてって、私たち、いいなってうらやましかったの。そしたらお金が尽きたら出されちゃったの。

ワカ： 聞いてない。そんな話あったの？ お金が尽きたら出されちゃったの？

ミチコ： うわさで、うわさっていうか本当なんだよね。人のいい人で、優しくて。出されちゃったんだから老人ホームかどっか入ったんじゃないかな。そういうつらい話も。あんな、
みんないい人なのに、それもさっきの朝鮮人とあれの差別と同じくらい、私の心におりのよ
うに今も残ってる。お金がないとそういうことになるの。だから、全部、使い果たした。そこのうちから日大に入った人がいるわけ。その例の日本の大学ね。日本大学。そこも全部、
学費、出してて。

ワカ： そのおばさまが出した。

ミチコ： ありがたいって言ってるから、それはうそじゃないんでしょう。男の子ね。それで行って、4 年間、下宿代も全部、払って。すごいことでしょう。だけどお金、尽きたら出されちゃった。それとかもう一軒は、何屋さんだったかな。もう忘れちゃった。そこに子どもがいなかったの。5 年たっても、6 年たっても。それで女の子、どっかから養子、もらったの。そしたら男の子が生まれて、その子が何となく、かなりおっきくなってたから。

ワカ： 女の子ね。

ミチコ： 居づらそうで気の毒だった、子ども心に。平等っていっても、結構、人間模様、見てきたんだ。

ワカ： 結構、観察してたね、お母さん。

ミチコ： そうだった。だから子どもが大学に行ったって言われたらすごいことなの。

ワカ： その炭鉱町で。

ミチコ： その頃は、だんだん。だって、まだ終戦直後だもんね。10 年ぐらいじゃ。

ワカ： 10 年ぐらいじゃね。

ミチコ： あと、傷痍軍人がいたりして、手とか足がなくて、包帯をぐるぐる巻きにして。

19

そういう人にはもちろん、お金あげたし。あと痰を普通に吐くんです。痰つぼっていうのが道にあったりとか、道路の端っことか。

ワカ： 痰つぼって本当にあったんだ。

ミチコ： あった。誰が片付けるのかなと思って、いつも、ぐっぐっていう感じで歩いてたね。痰つぼ、あったよ。でも傷痍軍人って、私が炭鉱から札幌の学校に行ったときも傷痍軍人がいた、白いのくるくる巻いて。だから結構、戦争の傷痕ってね。でもやっぱり、胸が痛
いのは、そのおばさんが追い出されたことと、あと、嫁、しゅうとめが。ああいう所で嫁、しゅうとめ、うまくいかない人がいて、そうすると夫婦でうちの時計屋の居間に、ストーブのそばで 2 人でストーブにあたって、1 日、いたわ。ちょっと邪魔だったって思ってた。

ワカ： 2 人いた、若い夫婦が。

ミチコ： 嫁、しゅうとめだから親のほうが。

ワカ： 親のほうが？

ミチコ： 年寄りが、うちに 1 日いて、えー、まだいるの？って感じだった。そりゃそうだね。居心地よかったんだね。もっと優しくすればよかったかな。

ワカ： いろんな人、来てたんだ。

ミチコ： あとは、これはずっと、ボーナスが出るから、これはものすごい売れるから、お正月料理なんかしながら母は店に出てた。

ワカ： すごい売れるんだ。

ミチコ： すごい炭鉱、景気、良かったもん。

ワカ： 時計が売れるの？

ミチコ： 時計でも指輪でも何でも売れる。

ワカ： 指輪でも売れる。ボーナス出たらすごい売れる。

20

ミチコ： 借金、平気だから、みんな。

ワカ： じゃあ、付け買いなの？

ミチコ： 付け買いにして、ボーナス出たら、みんな、わっとまた買いに来る。

ワカ： なるほど。付け買いにしといて、ボーナス出たら、払ってさらに買うんだ。払った
けど、さらに買うんだ。また付けになるの？

ミチコ： うん。それで、たんすの引き出しに、いっぱいお札がぐちゃぐちゃに入ってて、それを時々、もらって。大学生のときは、そっからがさっと私もつかんで、それで下宿に帰ったけど。妹は絶対、そんなことしなかった。金庫なんてなかったから、その後から金庫にきちっとやってたけど。

ワカ： そうなんだ。金庫なんかなかったんだ。

ミチコ： あったんでしょうけど、うちにはなかったから。

ワカ： そんな引き出しにお札があふれてた。

ミチコ： お客さん、帰ったらそこへばさっと親がお金、入れるから。

ワカ： 数えたりしてるんだよね？

ミチコ： 父はね。母は、そういうの、気にしないから。

ワカ： おじいちゃん、数えてた。

ミチコ： だから黙って持ってったのも知ってるんでしょうね。お金は。

ワカ： だいぶあったの？

ミチコ： だって 2 人、大学、行ったんだもんね。女の子、2 人、大学、行ったの。

ワカ： 北海道からよ。

21

ミチコ： 下宿して。

ワカ： しかも 1 人、理系で。

ミチコ： 奨学金、なし。

ワカ： すごいよね。

ミチコ： 今、考えたら。

ワカ： 今、考えたら裕福よ。

ミチコ： それで裏口入学のお金も払ったし。本当かな。でも本当なんだよね、あれ。絶対、本当だよね。だってさ、炭鉱の職員の人が、私の両親からお金、いつも借りてたもんね。

ワカ： 炭鉱の？

ミチコ： 炭鉱の職員の人が、いつも両親からお金、借りてたの。それで赤羽、引っ越した
ときも両親がお金、貸してたの。

ワカ： そうなんだ。お金、そのときも貸してたんだ。

ミチコ： 貸金ではないんだけど、貸してって言ったら貸すんだよ。父なんか人がいいから、回収なんかしたことない。だけど、その人はきちんと返してきた。父がそのときに、やっぱり大学出はすごいね、教養あるんだねって。教養なんて言葉、知ってたのかな。ちゃんと返してきてたから、すごいびっくりしてた。結局、その職員の人にお世話になって、大学の下宿とか、そこのうちに下宿させてもらったんだから。私も子ども風情で威張っていられない
わ。ちょっと偉いね、私も。そんな感じでした。
炭鉱で、山で畑、作ったり、ニワトリ、飼ってってのは本当に嫌だったけど、今、考えたら自給自足よね。

ワカ： 自給自足してる所もあった。お給料、すごい高いけど。

ミチコ： 高い。

ワカ： 高いけど、自給自足？

22ミチコ： みんな、働きたいんでしょうね。

ワカ： なんかしてるんだ、つまり。

ミチコ： 昔の人だから。

ワカ： そこ、畑にして。

ミチコ： 山、行って、畑、耕したり。長屋と長屋の間に、すごい広々だから、そこでも畑、いっぱいできるし。

ワカ： 土地があったら畑、してたみたい。

ミチコ： 売ったり買ったりじゃなくて、みんな、あげたりもらったりで。結構、人情味があったよね。

ワカ： 人情味があった。怖いこととかなかった？

ミチコ： 泥棒とか？ 痴漢とかない。

ワカ： 事件はなかった？

ミチコ： 殺人事件もない。

ワカ： 炭鉱は穏やかな所なんだ。

ミチコ： 横のつながり、すごくよかったよね。ただ、炭鉱事故は爆破事故とか起こると、やっぱり末端が切られるから、だから父がいつもすごい怒ってた。

ワカ： 責任を負わされるってこと？ 事故があると。

ミチコ： 発破をかけるのに、よく分かんないけど、そういうことで父がいつも怒ってたから。

ワカ： 発破っていうのは火薬？

23ミチコ： でしょうね。ダイナマイト？

ワカ： うん、ダイナマイト。

ミチコ： それだって誰かの証言で、それっきり覆されないことだってあるわけでしょう。
でも現場にいた父なんか、見てるから、あいつは悪いやつだっていつも怒ってた。

ワカ： 他の人に罪を着せ、より身分の低いっていうか。

ミチコ： 炭鉱夫でもやっぱり。

ワカ： 炭鉱夫の中でもあるんだよね。

ミチコ： 現場。

ワカ： 現場の序列みたいな。

ミチコ： そうすると、いっつも怒ってた。そういう炭鉱事故はあったよね。

ワカ： 結構、あった？ そうでもなかった？

ミチコ： 私の知ってる中では、知ってる人が死んだってことはなかった。でも、父が現場で親しくしてた人が亡くなったとか。父は悔しがってたよね。でも私、しっかり覚えてるのは、お弁当、持たせるでしょう、朝早く。何番目か、何番かな、一番方、二番方、三番方、
よく分かんないけど、出るでしょう。そうすると、弁当、持ってくのよ。それが母が、お餅をしっかり焼いて持たせるのよ。でも私、残ったお餅、一回、食べたことあるんだけど、固くこんなもの、食べられないじゃない。父ってどうやってたの。

ワカ： どうやって食べてたのか、お餅を。硬くなるよね。

ミチコ： ものすごい硬くなる。混ぜ物があるお餅ならともかく、昔だから餅、そのものでしょう。100 パーね。

ワカ： いくら朝、とろとろに焼いても。

24

ミチコ： でしょう。あんなにこんがり焼いて、ふっくらしても。それが聞いとくべきことの一つだったわ。

ワカ： どうしてたんだろうね。お餅だけだったの？ お弁当。

ミチコ： それにおしょうゆ、塗って。

ワカ： それだけ？ あとお米とかはないの？

ミチコ： お餅の日もあったし、おにぎりの日もあったし。

ワカ： お餅の日、どうしてたか。

ミチコ： お餅の日だって覚えてる。かちかち。

ワカ： かちかちなんじゃないかと。

ミチコ： 歯、丈夫だからよかったのかな。

ワカ： 食べてたのかな。1 回じゃなくて何回もあったの？ お餅。

ミチコ： しょっちゅう見てる。

ワカ： じゃあ、食べてたんだよね、きっと。

ミチコ： それは冬だから余計、硬いんじゃない。お餅つきって割と 1 年中するけど、特に。

ワカ： 冬だよね。

ミチコ： 暮れ。12 月の暮れは 28 日に 4 軒長屋の人が全員、集まって、みんなでお餅ついて食べた。そういうことだ。きな粉餅、おいしかったから、今もきな粉、好きなんだわ。

ワカ： そのときもきな粉、食べてた？ お弁当、持って入るんだ。

ミチコ： だからそっと夜中、歩いたりとかも。

25

ワカ： 寝てるから？

ミチコ： すごい気、使って。昼間も。

ワカ： 寝てるとき。

ミチコ： 騒がないようにみんなが……。

ワカ： おじいちゃんが。誰か、寝てる人がいたら起こさないようにする。

ミチコ： 子ども心に気、使って。叱られる前に静かにする。

ワカ： 騒いだら叱られるの？ やっぱりお父さん、寝かせとかなきゃいけないから。そこの炭鉱は、女性は採炭に入ってなかったんだよね。

ミチコ： 聞いたことない。

ワカ： そうだよね。だから九州とは違うよね。先山、後山で、後山が奥さんとかは九州だ
ったらあるけど、そういうのは北海道はない。基本的に女性は、おばあちゃんみたいな人は何してるの？ 昼。

ミチコ： 結構、忙しそうだったわよ。その辺でしゃべって、ゆっくりなんかしてるの見たことないな。無尽の日は別だったけど。畑、作ったり、皮、むいたり、種、取ったり、結構、
忙しいんじゃない？ 畑って忙しいもん。

ワカ： 畑、忙しいもんね。畑、してたんだ。あとは、いわゆる家の中の主婦的な仕事。

ミチコ： あと漬物とか、漬物を戻したりとか、どっかから天ぷら、仕入れて、天ぷら、売ってたりとか。

ワカ： 小商いとかしてた。

ミチコ： だからじっとはしてない。

ワカ： 炭鉱の女性、忙しい。

26

ミチコ： 忙しくは、普通か。ただ、そういう育ちをしてきた人は働くよね。働くの、当たり前できた人は。あとね、これは言った、そういえば。お化粧してる人がいたら、みんながすごいびっくりして、化粧してるって。

ワカ： て言うの？

ミチコ： 結婚して新婚さんが炭鉱に来るでしょう。住宅のどっかに入るでしょう。そうす
るとあそこの人は化粧してるって。私も化粧した人の顔、薄化粧なんだよね、今、思えば。
だから、へえって感じで、化粧って悪いもんなんだと思った。

ワカ： 悪いもんだと思ってたんだ、そのとき。

ミチコ： みんなでそう言うから、それで私も 27 まで化粧したことなかった。

ワカ： 大学生のとき、お化粧してなかったの？

ミチコ： してない。みんなが真っ赤な口紅とか付けてると、ブルーバードに乗って来て、車に乗って来たりすると(＃＃＃＃＠00:48:32)て感じでびっくりして。

ワカ： 27 で化粧したのは、どうしてしたの？

ミチコ： どうしてだろう。顔が映えないからでしょうね、きっと。

ワカ： だって 27 歳で。

ミチコ： 子どもが言ったのかもしれない。

ワカ： え、私？

ミチコ： 多分、だったのかな。

ワカ： 私が化粧しろって言ったんだ。

ミチコ： 口紅、付けなさい。

27

ワカ： 私が言ったのはどういうこと？

ミチコ： 確か子どもだと思う。

ワカ： 子ども？ 私？

ミチコ： だってカズマサ、言うわけないもん。

ワカ： いないもんね。子どもって私しかいない。そんなこと、言ったんだ。

ミチコ： どうして口紅、付けないのって言われたような気がする。

ワカ： でも私、そんなこと、子どもだから分かんないや。

ミチコ： よそのお母さんが。

ワカ： (口紅を)つけてたから、うちの親はなぜつけてないのかって観察したのかな。

ミチコ： 多分、そうだと思う。

ワカ： お母さん 27 って私、3 歳でしょう。てことはまだ。

ミチコ： 全然、しゃべるじゃない。

ワカ： しゃべるけど、福島？ 札幌？

ミチコ： 私、27 歳で化粧、初めてしたの、よく覚えてる。

ワカ： 福島か、どっちにいたのかな。札幌にいたのかな。

ミチコ： 駄目だ。戸籍謄本、見なかったら。

ワカ： 細かいのは分かんないけど、私が 3 歳だとすると福島？ だよね。引っ越してるんでしょう。そんなこと、言ったんだ。大体、時間になりました。

ミチコ： めちゃくちゃ。

28

ワカ： きょうは大体、炭鉱の話で。じゃあ、ありがとうございます。

ミチコ： 結構、思い出すもんだわね。

ワカ： 結構、思い出して面白かったです。じゃあ、ありがとうございます。

(了)

29

Appendix
The Life of Michiko- Narrative of the second interview2
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Monday, January 15, 2024, 13:00-13:50 Interview with MichikoInterviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Please start.
Michiko: In the mine, there were four row houses. So they were two-story tenements. And the toilet
was outside. At night, my brother, sister, and I would go to the bathroom outside with my brother,sister, and I. We were afraid to go to the bathroom at night, but in the middle of winter, it was slippery,
and I almost fell into the toilet bowl. I hated going to the bathroom the most. That's why I wet the bed
all the time. We all wet the bed, one after the other, because we were afraid to go to the bathroom.
Waka: That's right. You were afraid of the bathroom.
Michiko: I didn't want to go to the bathroom. When I wake up in the morning, I rush to put my hands
under my hips and say, "I didn't do it today, I did it. I'm afraid to go to the bathroom in the dark because
it's slippery. The caretaker would boil a bath and put something in the corner of the bath called"yakuyu," which I don't know what it was, but it looked like a bath salt. There were many times when
I was surprised to see babies peeing, pooping, and their poops floating around in the bath.
Waka: Babies poop….
2

Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy. Highlighted

portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author would like to thankMichiko, the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan and Mr. Christian Pasion of
Ateneo de Davao University for their advice in starting this study; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the ShirokaneTakanawa Counseling Room; Dr. Dan Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr.
Reiko Kuroda of the University of Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.
30

Michiko: No, an adult, or maybe a baby. I was so malnourished, so I was anemic, and I used to be
carried back to the tenement. I was malnourished, so I often got anemia and was carried back to mytenement on the doorboard. There was also an incident in which an employee or someone had fallen
into the hot bathtub where it had been boarded up and died. That was still painful. I wonder if theboiler boiled over or what happened. When I went to the bath, it was not hard in summer, but in winterit was slippery, so I had to cross the railroad track from the tenement to get to the bath. I think I told
you about it the other day. My mother fell down. And if you get something a little wet, if you do it
quickly, it turns into a plank.
Also, during New Year's and Bon holidays, when I received pocket money, I would go to the store,
not for one or two yen, but for a few coins or five coins. We would buy sweets there, and it was fun.
During the festival, "Tankobushi” was performed. So I grew up with "Tankobushi”. “The moon is out,
the moon is out, ah, it's good, it's good," they would say. I was wondering if anyone still sings thatsong.
Waka: That's a song about a coal mine.
Michiko: "Tankobushi". I searched for it on my phone the other day, and lo and behold, someone wassinging "Tankobushi". Is that Michiya Mihashi? I'll give it a try. It's "Tankobushi.
Waka: "Tankobushi".
Michiko: I grew up with "Tankobushi. It's not like classical music.
Waka: Did you always sing it at festivals?
Michiko: At festivals. Tankobushi.
Automatic voice Information from Wikipedia. “Tankobushi is a folk song from Fukuoka Prefecture,
Japan.”
Michiko: "There it is, there it is, the moon is out, oh, good, good," Oh, Michiya Mihashi is singing.
There it is.
Waka: So, you listened to this in search of "Tankobushi" sung by Michiya Mihashi.

31Michiko: I just heard it, I missed it. I heard "Tankobushi".
Waka: You've been listening to this for a long time?
Michiko: Everyone in the mines never lock the doors of their houses, and the house next door and thehouse across the street are all their own. So we usually get together, eat, and sing "Tankobushi" (coalmine songs). That's why "Tankobushi" has become a part of me. Yes, "Tankobushi" brings backmemories.
Waka: You mean you usually eat dinner at other people's houses already? I mean, it's your own house.
Michiko: Haruko-san over there eats at other people's houses, too. In the mines, there are three shifts
in the workforce: first, second and third shift, right?
Waka: Right, there were shifts.
Michiko: So, everyone, where I didn't go out, oh, I guess I threw it away[*looking for a book whichcontains an essay she wrote about her life in the coal mine town].
Waka: You would go to a neighbor’s house where they were in?
Michiko: Somehow, it is not decided. Oh, it's not this one. It's not this one, is it?
Waka: Where they were in. But I thought their father (coal miner) was sleeping there, their dad.
Michiko: To the house where their father is not sleeping.
Waka: I see, you would go to your neighbor’s house where their father is not sleeping.
Michiko: Maybe not this one.
Waka: "Cheese and slippery rice". What's this? I remember it from a book called "My Memories. It
was in a book called My Memories, That Day, That Taste. It was selected to be in the book.
Michiko: This is true. I guess it's true.

32

Waka: Well, let's have you tell me this story.
Michiko: My father was a coal miner, so we lived in one of the four-row houses. There was a teacher
we called Hideko-sensei. She lived with his parents. She had a very straight back and was very cool.
I hated studying, so I was always complaining that I wouldn't go to school. And when Ms. Hideko wassent by her parents and came out to say that she was leaving, I became embarrassed and shouted as
loud as I could that I couldn't go to school. She came to me and held my hands. I was a little
embarrassed, but it was a good feeling. I was a little embarrassed, but it was a good feeling.
We would often have breakfast at Ms. Hideko’s house. Even on the days when they complained,
there were five boys and girls, ranging in age from 2 to 6 years old. Two eggs were placed in a small
bowl and poured over rice equally by each of the five. I was so nervous that I poured the soy sauceover the rice, trying not to spill it. But since two eggs were to be divided among the five, a two-yearold girl wanted to eat the smooth rice. The teacher, who could not afford such luxury, lifted her own
rice bowl higher than her head with both hands, saying she wanted to eat the smooth rice, too. I thought
only children want to eat good food, but adults want to eat good food, too. So, the girl stopped nagging,
I see.
Waka: Like, Ms. Hideko wants to eat it too.
Michiko: Like a child.
Waka: You were surprised, though you were still child. Like, you found that adults want to eat it too.
Michiko: That's why Ms. Hideko would share rare foods with the tenement people when he had them.
Waka: Not Ms. Hideko children? Those five were invited?
Michiko: From the neighborhood. Children in tenements. From those houses over there to this house.
Waka: You got together with the neighborhood kids, five of you.
Michiko: Ms. Hideko lives with her parents, the three of them. So not everyone is a coal miner, but
Ms. Hideko's father worked in a coal mine. And cheese, too, Ms. Hideko, she got cheese fromsomewhere. Then she would share it with us. We would all get a piece of soap shaped like soap, what
color is that? It was orange (＊＊＊＊ kojo@00:09:13), I think. It looked like soap. I was the first
one to bite into it. When I said it tasted like soap, my sister looked surprised and asked me repeatedly33

if I had ever eaten soap, had I eaten soap? She asked me again and again, "Have you ever eaten soap?”
I said, "Yes, it tastes like soap," and I said, "I've never had soap, but it tastes like soap.” My sister, she
is so serious. No, I'm not, but I said, I knew it tasted like soap, and I was serious. It tasted sweet andbitter and foreign. And it smelled like a grass field. We started talking about cheese, adults and children
alike. It was a strange, high-country taste, both tasty and not so tasty, cheese.
Waka: Cheese, first time you ate it?
Michiko: It was my first time to try it. But it tastes like soap, doesn't it? I've never had soap before.
Waka: I wonder what made you think that.
Michiko: It's strange, isn't it?
Waka: There was a teacher named Ms. Hideko.
Michiko: Elementary school teacher. Yes, I miss her. So when I say something, my parents become
tense when I tell them that Ms. Hideko said it. I would say, "Ms. Hideko said that. “When there is adifference in the use of punctuation, everyone immediately goes to Ms. Hideko to ask her, both adults
and children. Then, they learn what is right from her. In addition to working at an elementary school,
Ms. Hideko was also a teacher at a tenement house.
Waka: She was also a tenement teacher.
Michiko: It was nice to have a different atmosphere in a place that was a bit more folksy and spicy.
She was kind.
Waka: Didn’t Ms. Hideco live in a tenement?
Michiko: She lived in a tenement, so, because her father works in the coal mine.
Waka: but was he a coal miner, not an employee? Her father.
Michiko: her father, coal miner.
Waka: He was a miner and her kids are teachers.

34

Michiko: Everyone respects her. And she doesn’t act arrogant, in short, she are acts like one of us.
They listen to her, but she does not give orders. She was still young. Wasn't Ms. Hideko around 20
years old? Those days. There were substitute teachers, weren't there? I don't know about that. But inthat rural area, there were not many people who went to girls' school. Most people just went to an
ordinary elementary school, weren’t they? I do not know exactly, but I think my parents only went toan ordinary elementary school.
Waka: I don't remember if they ever finished elementary school in the first place, like my grandfather.
Michiko: I don't think he did.
Waka: He didn't, probably, and neither did my grandmother.
Michiko: They can't read and write.
Waka: Those two, grandma could read and write, but grandpa can't?
Michiko: Yes. It's not that he couldn't do it at all. He was good at using his body.
Waka: My grandfather.
Michiko: I guess I enjoyed life in the mines and socializing with people. And since there was no ocean
to bathe in, they would go to the river and have a great time. I was too scared to do that.
Waka: There was a river.
Michiko: But there were people who belonged to a different world. Like the person I talked aout before,
he had a piano in a house provided for mining employees.
Waka: Their houses were in a different place, right?
Michiko: Yes, definetly. It is not a row house at all. It's a house.
Waka: There were row houses in a place, and houses in another?

35

Michiko: Yes, like that. I think that the houses were on higher ground. Or is it just how I was feelingabout their houses? I felt like they were on higher ground.
Waka: They were on higher ground.
Michiko: That would be for the staff. I guess you would call them clerical workers.
Waka: Maybe.
Michiko: So what was considered exceptional in the coal mine was the policemen at the police station.
Then there were the employees. The staff was the most respected of all. But both the policemen andthe employees treated us in a very normal way. They didn't talk to me from a high place, and they werevery nice.
Waka: It was a good feeling.
Michiko: So when a child from a police officer's family goes to college, we would say we knew it.
Waka: From the staff's family?
Michiko: And the policemen's family, say, their children got into Iwate University from there.
Everyone was so happy that they got into Iwate University.
Waka: That's what you would talk about.
Michiko: Yes, we would. There were a lot of people who thought the University of Tokyo was lower
than Nihon University. They thought that Tokyo is just a city, but Nihon (Japan) is a country. Japan ismore important than Tokyo. Now I know that’s how they would think of that.
Waka: Now that you think about it, that's the kind of world you all thought you were in. It wasn't
Tokyo Imperial University or anything like that.
Michiko: Gradually, people began to realize that Hokkaido University was great, and then they began
to understand the value of the University of Tokyo, or something like that.
Waka: With the times. At that time, not at all, not at all.

36

Michiko: That's why there were few people with educational backgrounds. Only the staff. Gradually,
when those children started going to those schools, everyone's perception changed.
Waka: How old were you then?
Michiko: I was around the age of 10. I'm starting to understand that kind of thing.
Waka: To begin with, mom, how old were you when you lived in the coal mine?
Michiko: Going to college means going from Sapporo, so no, it's not.
Waka: Were your parents already in Sapporo? When you were in college. Was your father already awatchmaker?
Michiko: When I went to college, I was still in the coal mine. Store.
Waka: You were still in the mines. You had not a store yet, or did you?
Michiko: My father got lung trouble from coal dust. I wonder if he retired and rented or bought a plotof land in a shopping district. It was a house with a shop that would deal with watches, glasses, andwhat was the name of the other stuff?
Waka: Jewelry?
Michiko: Yes. They opened that store.
Waka: Was that, mom. when you were a college student?
Michiko: Before I went to college. That's when I went to college. That's right, I remember.
Waka: It was before you went to college when the store was open.
Michiko: The mine closed down around the time I got married, there.
Waka: So you got married, which means you were about 24 years old when it closed?

37

Michiko: That's right. I can find out by looking it up.
Waka: If you look it up, of course. It's Ashibetsu's, right? It must be Mitsui Coal Mine.
Michiko: The area became a shopping district, and American soldiers from the Occupation Forces left
and sold many watches there. My father would buy them, repair them and sell them. He made a fortuneout of it. He was very dexterous.
Waka: Indeed. He made a fortune without ever learning it.
Michiko: So we paid a lot of taxes. I talked about alcohol, too, right?
Waka: Alcohol. You're talking about your father getting caught.
Michiko: There was no tax evasion.
Waka: He didn't get caught, huh? He wasn't evading taxes, but he was making doburoku, doburoku.
Michiko: His peers snitched on him because the business was so booming.
Waka: You mean they were jealous?
Michiko: Maybe. They tipped him off. The IRS came out, but they still didn't suspect him of tax
evasion. They searched our house, they found something in the basement.
Waka: Booze, here we go.
Michiko: He made doburoku, or sake. He paid a lot of taxes. It was moonshining.
Waka: Doburoku was moonshine, so we paid taxes on it.
Michiko: Because he was dexterous, he would drink that kind of thing with everyone, saying it's
delicious.
Waka: He was giving it away, neighbors.

38

Michiko: He must have known it was bad. Because they were doing it underground. I probably didn't
hear about it, but I think so.
Waka: moonshine.
Michiko: You never know. Why did he get caught?
Waka: It's more like a fine rather than being caught. Not a fine, but a tax surcharge? Of course hepaid the fine, I'm sure.
Michiko: He said it smells good, the guy from the IRS said.
Waka: It smells like doburoku.
Michiko: Also, if he was not making doburoku, I remember apples from Akita, Aomori, or Yoichi.
Yoichi produces a lot of apples. My mother used to buy crates of apples from Yoichi, put them in thebasement, or should I say the basement, and sell them.
Waka: She was selling apples.
Michiko: In a wooden box separate from the clock.
Waka: She sold apples.
Michiko: It was a big house, so peddlers came there and talked about the last backdoor entry to colleges.
Waka: What do peddlers peddle?
Michiko: Clothing.
Waka: Clothing?
Michiko: If it's a week, they stay there for a week.
Waka: I wonder where they bring their clothes.

39

Michiko: Asahikawa.
Waka: Bring it from Asahikawa.
Michiko: My father also went to Asahikawa when he went to purchase watches and precious metals,
for stock.
Waka: Would he buy in Asahikawa and sell in Sapporo?
Michiko: Nope. Ashibetsu.
Waka: Still in Ashibetsu? Sorry. So, Sapporo, where I was born, came much later. So your parents
opened a store in the shopping district of Ashibetsu then. So you were in a coal mining town?
Michiko: In the middle. Center.
Waka: Your family had a store in the shopping district in the center of the town. So you were in
Ashibetsu for quite a long time.
Michiko: It's long, isn't it?
Waka: When did you leave for Sapporo? By the way.
Michiko: When I was 15 because I'm going to high school?
Waka: Mom, you left when you were 15, right? Our family went to Sapporo. I was born in Sapporo.
Michiko: We, oh, I see. Tomoo rented an apartment in Sapporo because he wanted to go to Hokkaido
University.
Waka: When you got married and rented an apartment in Sapporo, did your parents live in Ashibetsu?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: So, Ashibetsu, it's a very long time. It was much Ashibetsu than I thought.

40

Michiko: Because when I was a college student.
Waka: You went back to Ashibetsu.
Michiko: Yes, it is. Yes, it's long.
Waka: When your grandfather and grandmother moved to Sapporo, that was when I was born. Wereyou still in Ashibetsu then?
Michiko: You were not born yet.
Waka: My grandparents came to Sapporo before I was born?
Michiko: The house, after it was built.
Waka: Grandpa and Grandma built the house, right?
Michiko: We moved out of the apartment there, and we joined them to live together.
Waka: And they opened a store?
Michiko: And lived there.
Waka: They ran a store. The same way, the watch shop, tehy did. So that's how it is.
Michiko: The upper floor is the residence and the lower floor is the clock shop. In short, my father andmother ran the clock shop, and next to the clock shop was a ramen shop, which they rented out. There
were also about three rooms to rent on the second floor.
Waka: Whether you admit or not, you were kind of wealthy. Well, you had lived in Ashibetsu for along time.
Michiko: Life in the mines was very humane, but I still think that the Koreans and the Ainu people
were treated with contempt.

41

Waka: The people in the mining towns despised them. Were there Korean people in the coal mines?
Michiko: No, I don't think there was, but there must have been. Like, I was told that this person was acertain kind of person. Because it was a store, many people would come and talk about various things,
so even as a child, I was always told why he was Korean, why he was Ainu, and so on. I thought it
was nice that the Ainu people had big eyes, considering that I had such small eyes. So I thought they
were beautiful, but there was no atmosphere that could allow me to say such a thing. If I had said
something like, "You have nice, wide eyes," people around me would have been very angry.
Waka: Were there actually Ainu people there?

Ashibetsu is.

Michiko: I don't think there were any.
Waka: Why are we talking about it?
Michiko: Why is it that, I still don't understand, these two. I really don't understand the distinction
between Koreans and Ainu people. I really don't understand. They are so beautiful. But the Ainu people
have black hair. Their eyes are wide open, and they have a cool mouth. I remember that kind of thing.
Waka: You didn't have it when you came to Tokyo? After all, that is Hokkaido.
Michiko: When you come to Tokyo, it must be that thing in the novel. A friend of mine told me theother day that she thought the people in the mines were scary.
Waka: On the contrary, were you surprised?
Michiko: I thought we would be distinguished.
Waka: When you were living in the mines, you had no idea what kind of image people had of you.
Michiko: Not at all.
Waka: You had no idea.
Michiko: On the contrary, they probably discriminated against the Ainu and Koreans. I think it was
only those two. They didn't discriminate against this person or that person in such an all-round way. It

42was like everyone was equal.
Waka: It was like everyone was equal. There must have been people from all different backgrounds.
Some had come up from Sakhalin after the war, some from other places, and so on.
Michiko: They think it's a criminal stream, but it's not. I wonder if there was. You don't pry too much,do you?
Waka: Well, what I’d think of is that you lived in a society that did not pry too much into each other'saffairs. For the most part, they were people from the outside.
Michiko: It was quite generous. But everyone peeked into the newlyweds' room, adults. And they were
all whispering about how they were getting round and stuff. I was listening with Dumbo's ears toeveryone whispering about it.
Waka: You were listening with Dumbo's ears. Adults peeking into newlyweds' rooms? They canbecause it's a tenement.
Michiko: All the kids are watching. All of us became like Dambo.
Waka: You were listening with your ears like Dumbo. Ashibetsu is like a coal mining town, and it was
everything to you. There is no other world beyond it.
Michiko: From a place called Ashibetsu, you can take a steam locomotive of Shuposhuppo, and it goesto Rokusen and Sejo.
Waka: Is Rokusen the name of the station? And Sejo is also the name of the station? Two different
names.
Michiko: Yes. There was one before that, but I forgot about it.
Waka: There were several stations?
Michiko: Yes, there were.
Waka: That station is a mining town. That place in Ashibetsu City is a mining town?

43Michiko: By steam locomotive from Ashibetsu City. The station might be in this picture, the stationof Rokusen. Rokusen, it was such a small station.
Waka: It was a tiny station.
Michiko: When I went there later, there was a station, which had become a bus stop.
Waka: It was a bus stop. Later, when?
Michiko: When I was about 70. With my brother.
Waka: When you were about 70 years old, mom.
Michiko: I was about 70.
Waka: When you went there, was it a bus stop? Not a train.
Michiko: There was an overpass from Ashibetsu to Sejo, and there was a steam locomotive there. I
really wanted to go there, so I went with my brother.
Waka: What was it like? When you went there.
Michiko: The shopping district was smaller than I expected, and I was also shocked to see the housethat my parents had built still standing.
Waka: Was there? That house in the shopping district. Did someone else live there?
Michiko: That's right.
Waka: So they took over.
Michiko: But none of the stores were open.
Waka: They were closed as shops, but were there people living in them?

44

Michiko: There were. Next door to our house was a general store. There was a Japanese woman there
named Kuniko. She was a beautiful woman named who was like a heavenly maiden. She was fairskinned, kind, like an ideal woman. There was a family that had no children, so her sister's child was
Kuniko, and Kuniko was adopted by the family. After the family had a baby, her son-in-law kicked
her out of the house. The husband said she did not want to work.
Waka: They said that she did not want to work, and she got kicked off…..
Michiko: Poor Kuniko. She's a beauty, isn't she? I wonder if she is still alive.
Waka: That's the memory of the grocery store, next door.
Michiko: After that, another guy came, and later when I was 70 and visited him, that second guy, he
was really kind.
Waka: Kuniko, you still lived there, when you visited there at 70, with her second husband, right?
Michiko: No. He died early in a car accident. So people said, "That's not loving at all," everyone said,
I mean, the people in the mines. But after 50 years, decades later, I don't know exactly, but I heard this,he was really kind and would take good care of her
Waka: The second one.
Michiko: That's why I don't understand how people feel. People around me are always talking, but
Kuniko-san doesn't say much. It's a tale of a coal mine.
Waka: A tale of a coal mine. But you mean Kuniko-san lived there even after the mine closed?
Michiko: She lived there alone. Kuniko's daughter was cheated by many people, men and women, andshe got into a lot of debts, and she had tens of millions of dollars, you know, compensation for a traffic
accident and so on.
Waka: There was a lot of compensation and stuff, back then.
Michiko: It was a car accident.

45

Waka: Because it was a car accident?
Michiko: That was one of those things.
Waka: Are you saying that she received compensation because her second husband was killed in a car
accident?
Michiko: I think so. Kuniko’s daughter was the only child, so Kuniko had to pay tens of millions ofdollars to her daughter's inheritance. When she hit the bottom, the second child, who had become abank employee, said that he had worked very hard to pay the money. The daughter is now living in abuckwheat noodle shop.
Waka: Her daughter, somewhere in Hokkaido?
Michiko: She said it was in Sapporo.
Waka: It's a coal mine story. Like, after the people in the coal mine. Were all the people in the shopping
district related to the coal mine?
Michiko： That's right. Kuniko's family and my father were the only miners who originally worked
as coal miners. So they must have had money.
Waka: Because it was a coal mine, there were opportunities, so you opened a store there.
Michiko: Even in the coal mine, the salary was very good. So he accumulated 1,000 yen a month, well,
I forgot again.
Waka: Accumulate?
Michiko: So I'm really looking forward to that day. There were lots of sweets, and everyone's housechanged every month, and what did they call it? What did you call it? I'll tell you if I remember. I
wonder if they still do it now. Everyone would give money, and the winner would borrow, say, 100,000
for the month, or smaller amount because it was way back then.
Waka: I understand. It's like a Tanomoshiko?

46

Michiko: That's it. That's why we would share the sweets and take them home together, but somepeople would just leave them there saying, "It's okay, Micchan.”Waka: They used to do Tanomoshiko. Did you, I mean, children also do that?
Michiko: They'll watch. Adults did it.
Waka: The adults were doing it, but the kids were watching it and seeing if their family could hit it,
which was great.
Michiko: My parents were like, “we don't have to win it at the end of the day”.
Waka: They were doing it even if they didn't win. They would pay 1,000 yen for the time being. 1,000
yen, in those days, was quite a lot.
Michiko: We don't know because everyone is dead, so we can't even ask. Ah, “Mujin”?
Waka: Mujin. Yes, Mujin, not Tanomoshiko. I'm sorry, I don't understand the difference.
Michiko: I don't know, either. It's the same. Because "Mujin" means nothing.
Waka: It'd never run out. So you do it in order to be able to spend big money, taking turns.
Michiko: The later your turn would be, the more you would win.
Waka: You were doing Mujin, everyone in the shopping district
Michiko: In the shopping district.
Waka: The members of the shopping district were Mujin members.
Michiko: Because of their wealth, some of them started going to college. So gradually, people began
to understand the difference between Nihon University and the University of Tokyo.
Waka: They were starting to understand, as information came in.

47

Michiko: There wasn’t even a kindergarten, so I never went to kindergarten.
Waka: You would say, “what is a kindergarten like?”
Michiko: My sister, who was born two years later, went to kindergarten. Oh, yes, that happened. They
were doing Mujin.
Waka: How many people in the shopping district? How many shops?
Michiko: I think there were 10 shops. There was a bicycle shop, a watch shop, and a fish shop. Then
there was a bookstore, and maybe two general stores. And a drug store. There were six or seven shops
across the street from each other, if I recall correctly. There were all kinds of people. I think I told you
about the clothing store. There was a relative there who had no relatives, and there was an aunt, I don't
know whose aunt, but she lived there. I think I told you. We were so envious of her, because she tookvery good care of her family, and we were so jealous of her, because she had a rich grandmother. We
were so envious of her, and then when she ran out of money, they took her out.
Waka: I haven't heard. Did they ever talk about that? Did they let her out when her ran out of money?
Michiko: It's a rumor, and I don't mean it's a rumor, but it's true. She was a good person, kind andgentle. I think she went to a nursing home or something because she was let out. I have such a painful
story. Even though they were such good people, it still lingers in my mind like a burr in my heart, justlike the discrimination against Koreans and that. That's what happens when you don't have money. So,
they spent it all. So there was one from their family who entered Nihon University. You know, that
“Japanese” university. Nihon University. They also paid all the tuition fees.
Waka: That lady paid for it.
Michiko: They say they are grateful, so I guess that's not a lie. It was a boy. So he went to the university
and they paid for boarding and lodging for four years. It must have been amazing. But when she ran
out of money, they took her out. And the other one, what kind of shop was it? I don't remember. There
were no children there, even after five or six years. So they adopted a girl from somewhere. And thena boy was born, and he was kind of a big boy, so....
Waka: The adopted one was a girl.

48

Michiko: I felt sorry for her, as a child. Even though we were all equal, I had seen a lot of humandrama.
Waka: You were quite observant, mother.
Michiko: That's right. So it's a great thing when someone says their child went to college.
Waka: In that mining town.
Michiko: At that time, gradually. It was still right after the war, about 10 years ago.
Waka: About 10 years.
Michiko: There were also wounded soldiers who had no hands or feet and were wrapped in bandages.
Of course, we gave money to those people. Also, people usually spit out phlegm. There were spittoons
on the street, or at the edge of the road.
Waka: I didn't know that phlegmatic jars really existed.
Michiko: They did. I wondered who was going to clean it up, and I always walked around like,"Gugugugu”. There was a phlegm pit. But there were wounded soldiers when I went to school in
Sapporo from the coal mines. So, there were scars from the war. But what still hurts my heart is thatthe lady was kicked out. There were also people whose wives and mothers didn't get along with eachother, and they would spend a day in the living room of our clock shop by the stove, just the two ofthem. I thought it was a little disturbing.
Waka: There were two, a young couple?
Michiko: No, the older one.
Waka: The parents?
Michiko: The old people would stay at our house for a day, and I was like, "Oh, they're still here?”
They must have been comfortable. Maybe I should have been nicer to them.
Waka: All kinds of people, they came.

49

Michiko: Also, my mother was always at the store while cooking for New Year's because bonuses
were paid, and sales at our store was amazing.
Waka: The shop’s merchandise sold like hotcakes?
Michiko: The coal mine business was booming.
Waka: You sold watches?
Michiko: We sold watches, rings, anything.
Waka: Even rings you would sell as well. If they get bonuses, you can sell a lot.
Michiko: Debt, everyone was fine with it, everyone.
Waka: So they would buy on credit?
Michiko: They would buy on credit, and once they get their bonus, they will come to buy again.
Waka: I see. They would buy on credit, pay for it once they get their bonus, and they would buy on
credit again, right?
Michiko: Yes. So I had seen a drawer full of bills in a mess in our dresser, and I would sometimes getthem. When I was a university student, I would quickly grab them and go back to my rooming housewith them. My sister would never do that. We didn't have a safe, so after that, we put the money in thesafe properly.
Waka: I see. There was no safe.
Michiko: I'm sure there were, but we didn't have any.
Waka: The drawer was overflowing with bills.
Michiko: When the customers pay and leave, my parents will quickly put the money there.

50

Waka: They do count they money, right?
Michiko: My father does. My mother doesn't care about that kind of thing.
Waka: Grandpa, he would count.
Michiko: So I guess they knew that I took it without telling them. The money.
Waka: Was there much?
Michiko: Because two girls went to college from our family. Two girls went to college.
Waka: It's from Hokkaido.
Michiko: Stay at a boarding house.
Waka: And one of them was a science major.
Michiko: No scholarship.
Waka: It's amazing, isn't it?
Michiko: Now that I think about it.
Waka: Now that I think about it, you were wealthy.
Michiko: And they paid for the backdoor entrance. I wonder if it's true. But it's true, isn't it? I'm sureit's true. Because, you know, one of the mine employees always borrowed money from my parents.
Waka: In the mines?
Michiko: The mine employee always borrowed money from my parents. So when I moved to Akabane,
my parents lent me money.
Waka: I see. Your parents lent money to him then, too.

51

Michiko: My parents were not moneylenders, but when people ask for a loan, they would lend it. My
father was a good person, so he never collected the money. But this person did return the money. My
father said to me at that time, "It's great that he has a college education, he must be well educated. I
wonder if he knew the word "educated”. He was so surprised that the person returned the money tohim. In the end, this person took care of me and let me stay at his house when I went to college. I can't
be so overbearing like a child. That's a little bit great, me too. That's how it was.
I really didn't like the idea of working in a coal mine, growing crops in the mountains, and raisingchickens, but now that I think about it, we are self-sufficient.
Waka: You were also self-sufficient in a sense while coal miner’s wages were very high.
Michiko: High.
Waka: High, but self-sufficient?
Michiko: I guess everyone wants to work.
Waka: Everyone is doing something, right?
Michiko: Those people were old-timers.
Waka: There, make it a field.
Michiko: We would go to the mountains and work in the fields. There was a lot of space between therow houses, so we could cultivate a lot of fields there as well.
Waka: If you had land, you would have farmed it.
Michiko: We didn't sell or buy, but everyone gave and received. It was quite humane, wasn't it?
Waka: It was very humane. Did you have any fears or anything?
Michiko: Like thieves? No, no molestation or anything.
Waka: There were no incidents?

52

Michiko: No murders either.
Waka: The mine is a peaceful place.
Michiko: The horizontal connections were very good, weren't they? However, when coal mine
accidents such as explosions occurred, the end of the line would be cut off, so my father was always
very angry.
Waka: You mean they will be held responsible? If there is an accident.
Michiko: I don't know, but my father was always angry for that kind of thing.
Waka: Blasting means gunpowder?
Michiko: I'm sure it is. Dynamite?
Waka: Yeah, dynamite.
Michiko: There were times when someone's testimony would not be overturned. But my father, who
was there, was always angry because he saw it.
Waka: It's like a lower status by imputing guilt to others.
Michiko: Even coal miners, after all.
Waka: There are some among the miners.
Michiko: On-site.
Waka: Like a pecking order in the field.
Michiko: He was always angry when such things happened. There were coal mine accidents like that,
weren't there?
Waka: Was it quite a bit? Not so much?

53

Michiko: I didn't know that anyone I knew had died. But I heard that someone my father was close toin the field died. My father was very sorry. But what I remember well is that we would make him bringhis lunch, early in the morning. I don't know what his shift was, first, second, or third, but he would
leave. Then he would bring his lunch box. My mother would make sure the rice cakes were well baked
for him to bring. I ate the leftover rice cake once, but it was too hard to eat. How did my father do it?
Waka: How did you eat the rice cakes? It gets hard, doesn't it?
Michiko: It becomes extremely hard. It's not so bad if it's a rice cake with some kind of mixture, but
it's a traditional rice cake, that's what it is.
Waka: No matter how much you bake it in the morning for to become softer.
Michiko: That's right. Even though they are browned and fluffed up like that. That was one of thethings I should have asked him of.
Waka: I wonder what he did. Was it just rice cakes? Bento.
Michiko: Put some soy sauce on it.
Waka: That's all? And no rice or anything else?
Michiko: There were days of rice cakes and days of rice balls.
Waka: What did you do on the day of rice cakes?
Michiko: I remember it's mochi day. They were very hard.
Waka: They must be very hard.
Michiko: I guess he had strong teeth.
Waka: Did you eat it...not once, but many times? Mochi.
Michiko: I would see them very often.

54

Waka: Then you must have been eating often too, I'm sure.
Michiko: That's because it's winter, so it must be extra hard. Mochi pounding is done all year round,but especially in winter.
Waka: It's winter.
Michiko: At the end of December, on the 28th, all the people in the four-row houses gathered and ate
rice cakes together. That's how it was. Kinako mochi (soybean flour rice cakes) were delicious, so I
still like soybean flour.
Waka: Did you eat soybean flour then, too? Did you have it in your lunch box?
Michiko: I would quietly walk around in the middle of the night.
Waka: Because people were sleeping?
Michiko: I was very careful. Even during the daytime.
Waka: When coal miners were sleeping.
Michiko: Everyone would try not to make a fuss.
Waka: My grandfather was sleeping, too. You would try not to wake anyone, if anyone was sleeping.
Michiko: I was still young, but I was very careful. Be quiet before you are scolded.
Waka: If you make a fuss, will you be scolded? After all, your father, you have to let him sleep.
Women were not allowed in the coal mines there, right?
Michiko: I have never heard of it.
Waka: That's right. That is why it is different from Kyushu. In Kyushu, there would be a “saki-yama”
and “ato-yama”, and the ato-yama would be the wife, but there is no such thing in Hokkaido. Basically,
women like my grandmother, what do they do during the daytime?

55Michiko: They seemed pretty busy. I've never seen them chatting and relaxing around there. Except
for the days when they held Mujin. I guess they were busy with planting, peeling, seeding, and so on.
I think they were busy in the field.
Waka: They were busy working in the fields, weren’t they? They were working in the field. If not,they were doing household chores like housewives, right?
Michiko: And they would make pickles, rehydrate the pickles, and they would buy tempura fromsomewhere and sell them.
Waka: They did some small business.
Michiko: That's why they would not sit still.
Waka: Women in the coal mine were busy.
Michiko: Busy, is that normal? But people who grew up that way work. People who were raised towork, of course. Did I tell you this also? When we saw someone wearing makeup, we were surprised
to see them wearing makeup.
Waka: You say?
Michiko: Newlyweds will come to the coal mine after getting married. They would go into one of thehouses. Then I would hear people say that the person there wore makeup. I also noticed that the people
who wore makeup had light makeup on their faces, now that I think about it. So I thought, "Wow,makeup is a bad thing.”
Waka: You thought it was bad, then.
Michiko: Everyone said so, and that's why I never wore makeup until I was 27.
Waka: Didn't you wear makeup when you were in college?
Michiko: I didn't. I was surprised when everyone was wearing bright red lipstick or something, andthey would come in their bluebird and get in their car (＃＃＃＃@00:48:32).

56

Waka: Why did you wear makeup at 27?
Michiko: I wonder why. It must be because my face doesn't look good.
Waka: Why then at the age of 27?
Michiko: Maybe my child said it.
Waka: What, me?
Michiko: Maybe it was.
Waka: Did I tell you to put on makeup?
Michiko: Put on your lipstick.
Waka: What did I say?
Michiko: I think it was my child.
Waka: Your child? Me?
Michiko: Because Kazumasa would never tell me.
Waka: There were no other children. It must be me then. Did I tell you such a thing?
Michiko: I think I was told why I don't wear lipstick.
Waka: But I can’t remember because I was small.
Michiko: You must have seen other mothers wearing makeup.
Waka: (Lipstick) They wearing it, so I guess I observed why my mother wasn't wearing it.
Michiko: Maybe.

57

Waka: If you were 27 years old then, mom, that means to say I was 3 years old, right? Or I was notthree years old yet?
Michiko: You were already talkative.
Waka: Perhaps I was, but were we in Fukushima? Or still in Sapporo?
Michiko: I was 27 years old when I put on makeup for the first time, I remember it well.
Waka: Fukushima, or which one was it? I guess we were in Sapporo.
Michiko: No, I can’t remember. I should check the family register.
Waka: I don't know the details, but let's say I was 3 years old, so that means to say we are in
Fukushima? Right? We must have moved (from Sapporo to Fukushima). Did I really say such a thing?
Well, it’s about time.
Michiko: It's messed up.
Waka: Today you mostly talked about coal mining. Well, thank you very much.
Michiko: It's quite reminiscent.
Waka: It was quite interesting what you recalled. Well, thank you very much.
(End)58