2024

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―3回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―3 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2024 年 2 月 12 日（月）12:30-13:23 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****

ワカ： じゃあ、お願いします。

ミチコ： 4 軒長屋で夜、お手洗い行くの怖くて、きょうだい 3 人で行った話はしたでしょう。

ワカ： うん、面白かった。

ミチコ： とっても怖かった、ぼっとんで。両親が店で忙しくて、それで、1 年で休むときは大みそかとお正月三が日で。あと、クリスマスケーキが、クリスチャンじゃないのにクリ
スマスケーキを、バターケーキ、ワンホール買ってくれて、それをきょうだい 3 人で食べて。兄はぱっぱと食べて、妹と私は窓の外の雪を掘って、そこにケーキを入れて。

ワカ： この絵がそう(＃＃＃＃＠00:01:01)。

ミチコ： 次の日、ないの。

ワカ： 次の日？ ユタカおじちゃんのとこはケーキないの？

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1ミチコ： 全部、自分が食べちゃったから。

ワカ： そうなんだ。

ミチコ： 私たちは 1 年に 1 回、大事なケーキだから。

ワカ： 残した。

ミチコ： 大事に取って、窓の外に。雪が吹き込んでくるけど、2 重窓、3 重窓、2 重窓かな？ そこにケーキを入れて、また朝、食べるの。兄に 2 人の分けたの。いいよって言いながら喜んでた。そうなの。

ワカ： これ何歳ぐらいのとき？

ミチコ： これはまだ小学生、中学なんか行ってないな。まだ妹が 3、分からないわ。妹が三つ、私が五つ、兄が八つぐらいだったと思う。まだ幼い、ケーキ喜んでんだから、幼い頃だった。でも、これはとってもうれしかった。

ワカ： 5 歳と 3 歳、ちゃんとケーキを取っておいた。

ミチコ： そう、すごいぜいたくなことだったわね。あとは話、前後するけど、電話を呼び出すのって、固定電話を付けたときに、電話のないうちがほとんどだったから、うちの店に電話かかってきて、電話だよって教えに行って、うちの電話で。番号が 8 番、欲しかった、
末広がりだから、両親がね。でも 6 も、下が 8 だから、末広がりで喜んで。だから、電話番
号が 6 番で、よく呼びに行ってて。それで犬にかみつかれて、それから犬がすごい怖くて。

ワカ： どこの犬にかみつかれたの？

ミチコ： 電話だよって教えに行って、玄関、開けた途端にがぶって。

ワカ： そこの家の犬がかんだ？

ミチコ： うん。そう。それから犬が怖くなって。あと、自殺した話も、下ろした話もしたもんね。

ワカ： 今回は聞いてない、まだ。

2

ミチコ： え？ あれ？

ワカ： 下ろした話は聞いてない。

ミチコ： 私が下ろしたんじゃないんだけど。

ワカ： うん。遺体を下ろしたって話でしょう。

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： それは、今までの生活の中で聞いたことあるけど、今回の録音では聞いてない。

ミチコ： あれ？ そうだっけ？

ワカ： うん。

ミチコ： 炭鉱の町を友達と 2、3 人で歩いてたら、血相変えた、30 代ぐらいの人かな、ぎゃあって、すごい血相変えて走ってて。びっくりして、そこのうちの窓から見たら、誰かが横たわってて、それで、首つり自殺したってことで大騒ぎになって。それはものすごいの、悲しいとかじゃなくて、びっくりしちゃって。次の日かな、その次かな。バスで、親族だと思うの、その人たちがちっちゃいバスに乗って、葬儀場に行ったのか、帰りなのか、それを見たんだけど、窓越しに、わーって泣き叫んでたような人が居眠りしてた。すごい胸が痛かった、みんなで。それは、どうして自殺したか、そういうのは誰も知らないけど、でも、炭鉱事故と同じくらい悲しかったよね、ああいう場面ってね。そうか、話してなかったんだ。

ワカ： うん。そうなんだ。それは近所の人？

ミチコ： 町内は違ったけれども、だから、顔見知りではないんだけど。それは炭鉱住宅に住んでたときの話ね。

ワカ： 遺体を下ろしたわけではない？

ミチコ： ぶら下がったの見たのかな。ぶら下がったの見たんだね。だから覚えてるんだと思う。

3ワカ： それが衝撃的だった？

ミチコ： どうだろうね。みんなが下ろしたのを見たのかもしれない。その辺の記憶、曖昧だわね。

ワカ： 小さいときでしょう？

ミチコ： ちっちゃいとき。だから、このケーキよりもうちょっと大きかったかもしれない
けど。夏だったよね。

ワカ： 夏だったんだ。

ミチコ： だから、窓開いてたの。お風呂場で、熱湯で亡くなった人とか、その話は。

ワカ： お風呂場に落ちて亡くなった？

ミチコ： そうそう。お風呂の戸板、経営者というか管理者。

ワカ： 戸板の管理者？

ミチコ： お風呂場の管理者の奥さんが戸板から落ちて熱湯で死んじゃった。亡くなった。
楽しいこと覚えてないじゃない、ケーキの話あるか。

ワカ： ケーキの話は楽しさの象徴だと思うけど。

ミチコ： でも、この頃、生クリームとかじゃない、バターケーキね。バタークリームね。

ワカ： バターケーキはどんな味だっけ。

ミチコ： 今、何だか分かんないけど、うれしい味だった。

ワカ： うれしい味だった？

ミチコ： だよね。そんなんだったね。

ワカ： 炭鉱は暗い思い出もあるね。

4ミチコ： 暗い思い出？

ワカ： うん。だから、今の人が亡くなる話とか。

ミチコ： あと、炭鉱事故があると、いつも父が怒ってた。上の人は責任、取らないって。

ワカ： 炭鉱事故はどんな事故があった？

ミチコ： 分かんないな。爆発なんでしょうね。でも、私が知ってる人が炭鉱で亡くなったのはなかった、1 件も。

ワカ： なかった？

ミチコ： うん。でも、毎日そういうことは、危険にさらされてることは子どももみんな知ってたから、みんな 1 番方、2 番方、3 番方って寝てるうちの前では騒がなかった、静かに静かに。だから、今も音に敏感よね。

ワカ： そういうことなんだ。

ミチコ： しい、しいっていう生活してたから。楽しいことってあったかな？

ワカ： むしろ楽しいことは少なかった？

ミチコ： 𠮟られてばっかり、性格悪かったから。

ワカ： 𠮟られてばっかりだった？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： 誰に𠮟られた？

ミチコ： 両親。特に母に。

ワカ： 例えば？

5ミチコ： 例えば、おねしょ？ おねしょで𠮟られなかったか。どうして𠮟られたのかも分
からないよね。

ワカ： でも、よく𠮟られてた？

ミチコ： うん。真ん中って注目されないからね。

ワカ： 3 人きょうだいの真ん中？

ミチコ： うん。口が達者だって言われたわね。

ワカ： 口が達者って言われた？

ミチコ： うん。目がちっちゃいとか、鼻が上向いてるとかって散々、言われたわね。

ワカ： おばあちゃんに？

ミチコ： うん。だよね。親に抱きしめられたってのはなかったわね。だから、妹が父のあぐらに収まってるのがすごいうらやましかった。だって妹、おとなしいし。兄は親の意に反して時計の修理とかうまくできなくて、夜間高校に通って昼間、店の手伝いしたけど、役立たずって散々ののしられてたね。

ワカ： そうだったんだ。

ミチコ： うん。だから、夜間高校から帰ってきて、帰り、お酒とか飲んだら、玄関で両親にすごいぶたれてたね、バンバンって。子どもを𠮟るときの親は一致すんのに、普段、仲悪いのよね。

ワカ： 普段、仲悪いんだ。

ミチコ： 仲悪い。人前では気取ってるけど。楽しい話って、どうして子どもの頃、楽しい
話ってないんだろう。

ワカ： そういう話が聞きたいので。

ミチコ： あと、刺激的な話は、高校に行ったのは公立高校も全部、落っこって、私立の学

6

校、行ったんだけど。帰省したときに中学時代の友達がちんぴらっていわれた人が、やくざっぽいけども、なんか魅力のある男の人がいて、もてもての人がいて。その人とキスをしたとか、胸を触ったとか、随時、聞かされて。目をらんらんとしてね。

ワカ： 友達がその人とそういう関係を持っていたってことを聞かされた？

ミチコ： まだ高校だったと思うよ、中学かな。いや、帰ってきてからだから。

ワカ： 札幌の高校に行ってたんだよね。

ミチコ： 行ってた。

ワカ： そして、地元に帰って、芦別に戻ってきたときに、その友達から聞かされた話？

ミチコ： そう、商店街の娘なんだけど、同級生だから。そういうことは大人もひそひそと話してることだからね、面白かった。どんどん話してくれて、立ったまま入れるんだよって言ったときには何を入れるのって言って、それでびっくりされたの。炭鉱、すごい淫靡の話って好きな、子どももだから、私も好きだったんだね、そういう話ね。

ワカ： 炭鉱の人たちはそういう話を、大人もしていた？

ミチコ： 大人はしょっちゅうしてた。

ワカ： 大人はしょっちゅうしてたんだ。

ミチコ： しょっちゅうしてた。

ワカ： それで、お母さんたちは高校生でそういう話をしてた？

ミチコ： そう。だから、そういう知識は分からないなりにあるわけ。大人の話を、大人は子どもを無視して、そういうのを話すから。

ワカ： 面白い。そういう話をしてるんだ、大人が。

ミチコ：

そう。だから、新婚さんの所をのぞいたりとか大人がしてた。(＃＃＃＃＠00:13:44)とか何とかって、ひそひそ話して。まさか子どもは見に行かないよな。

7ワカ： 行かない。でも、聞いてた？

ミチコ： そう。だから、友達が話しても、そういうもんなんだと思ったけど、立ってっていうときは何のことか本当に分かんなかった。だから、その彼女とは仲良しだったね。あと、泊まりに行ったときに、その彼女、同じ商店街の娘だから、2 階でみんなで寝たときに誰かが乗っかってきて。それで、死に物狂いで寝たふりして、大変だったってことある。だから・・・。

ワカ： お母さんが？

ミチコ： そうそう。

ワカ： 誰かが乗っかってきたの？

ミチコ： うん。だから、金縛りで、でも、寝返り打ったふりをして、何回もやって。朝早く。だから、誰がってことは分かんないけど、男に決まってるなって思ったの。リッちゃんの話を聞いてたから。

ワカ： リッちゃんから聞いたことから考えると、男の人が乗ってきたんじゃないかと思ったんだ。

ミチコ： うん。怖かった。だから結構、淫靡な話は・・・。

ワカ： それ、一緒に寝てた人？

ミチコ： 分からないよね。

ワカ： 並んで、一つの部屋に寝てたんでしょう。

ミチコ： うん。リッちゃん所で寝てたんだけど。そういう年頃だもんね、みんなね。危ない。

ワカ： それが高校時代の芦別の話？

ミチコ： 帰省したときの話。高校のときは寮だったから。だから、雪が高校のときは私鉄

8

の駅の澄川って駅からちょっと山のほうにあって、学校が。雪が多くて帰れなくて。そのときに寮の、その話、してないのかな。寮生活だから、寮の管理人の息子さんがおんぶして、膝上まで雪に埋まって、おんぶしてくれて、いい感じだった。

ワカ： 駅まで連れて行ってくれたの？ それで。

ミチコ： 駅まで迎えに来てくれて。

ワカ： 迎えに来てくれて寮まで連れて行ってくれたの？

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： 背負って？

ミチコ： 私だけじゃないけど。

ワカ： お母さんだけじゃないけど、みんなをそうやって運んでた？

ミチコ： その人がすてきとか何とかじゃなくて、男の人に触れるってこういうことかって思った。

ワカ： そうだったんだ。

ミチコ： そうだよね。あと、寮のお風呂に入って、痩せたい年だから、私、太ってたから。

ワカ： 痩せたいっていうのはその時代にもあったんだ。

ミチコ： あった。私、10 キロ以上、太って。親から自由になったし、食べたいだけ食べてたらすぐ太っちゃって。顔が変わっちゃったって言われたの、帰省したときに。それで、みんなでお風呂入ったときに鎖骨に水がたまる人がいて、みんなでいいねって触ったのもある。それとか、それぞれおうちから荷物が来て。したと思う、してないのか。お菓子やなんかいろいろ来ると、それぞれみんな分け合うんだけど、1 人の人はお布団に入ってこっそり食べてた音がした。

ワカ： その人は分けてくれなかった？

9ミチコ： ちょうだいとも言わないし。誰もそんな悪口は言わなかったってのはいいなと思って。あれ、してないんだね。あと、してないかな、寮の話。上級生は学資が大変で、すごい頭が良くて、すごい美貌だったけど、お金がないっていうことでいつもやめるとか何とかって感じだったけど、そこに男性が来て、その彼女の、社会人だったの、男性はね。それで、お部屋で 2 人っきりにって、寮のおばさん許したのね。それで・・・。

ワカ： どこで 2 人きり？

ミチコ： 寮の部屋で。だって、2 人部屋とか 3 人部屋じゃない。それで、みんなで耳をそば立てた。そして、その人がお金を出したの、卒業するまでね。

ワカ： 学費を出してくれた？

ミチコ： うん。で、別れたの。それで、悪口を言わないみんなも「あれ、男の人、かわい
そうだよね」って話を。

ワカ： その後に？

ミチコ： うん。そう。そういう性的なことはなかったから、彼女も偉かったのかな、そういうけじめつけてたんでしょう。でも、私たちまだ 17、18 だから、何となくやり方ずるい
よねって感じだった。まだ子どもだからね。

ワカ： 子どもだから、そういうことが話してたんだ。

ミチコ： そう。楽しかったんだ、寮生活。

ワカ： 寮生活はいろいろあった。

ミチコ： 公立高校、落ちなくていいような人が何人かいて、それは環境、違うんでかわい
そうだなと思った。私みたいにまるっきり勉強、分かんなくて、拾ってもらったのと違う人もいっぱいいたから。でも、こんな所に来たくなかったっていう人は 1 人もいなかった。

ワカ： 私立の新設校だったの？

ミチコ： そう、2 期生だもん。

10

ワカ： 2 期生？ 2 期生って何だっけ。

ミチコ： 創立は 1 期生でしょう。

ワカ： そういう意味ね。

ミチコ： うん。だから、2 年目ってこと。

ワカ： 2 年目ってことね。2 期生ね。2 年目に入った学生だった？

ミチコ： そう。それで、まだ生徒が集まらないから誰でも入れた。そういうときだから卑屈になる人もいたと思うけど、いなかったね。逆に大学入ったときにも俺は日大なんか入りたくなかった、どこどこ行きたかったってのがいっぱいいて。逆に私、自分が程度低いなって軽蔑したもんね。

ワカ： そういうこと言う人は程度が低いと思った？

ミチコ： そう。高校のとき全然、思わなかった。落ちこぼればっかりじゃなかったから。
結構、学歴っていうけど、ふうんって感じるとこよね。

ワカ： ふうんっていうのは？

ミチコ： 何かのあれで落ちるんだなと思って、優秀な人も。

ワカ： 優秀な人も試験に落ちることがあると思った？

ミチコ： 私みたいに駄目なんでも拾ってくれることが。親の財力にもよるしね。矛盾をいっぱい覚えたのは高校、大学。

ワカ： 高校、大学？

ミチコ： うん。だよね。あとは何回も言うけど一番、衝撃的だったのは「炭鉱の人って怖い」って言われたのが衝撃だったのね。

ワカ： イメージを持ってたんだ、みんなは。大学？

11ミチコ： うん。そう。でも、大学って横の関係だからいいよね、どこどこの何々さんだってまるっきり関係ないもんね。

ワカ： フラットな関係になる。

ミチコ： 本当に、横だもんね。

ワカ： そうなんだ。

ミチコ： 前後したけど、お姉さんの話をしたもんね、この前ね。

ワカ： お姉さんの話？ うん。

ミチコ： そうだよね、行きたい人が行ってないんだもんね。行きたくない人が行って人生、
変わっちゃうんだから。なんか変だよ。変だけど。

ワカ： 大学ね。

ミチコ： 乗っかってきたね。

ワカ： 乗っかってきた感じがある？

ミチコ： うん。何だか自分は経済的に恵まれてるんだなっていうことで。変だね、変だけ
ど、変だって言いながら来たってのも、変だなあって感じ。

ワカ： 変っていうのはどの辺が変なのかな。

ミチコ： 炭鉱で本当に行きたい優秀な人が、何人か見てて、息子さんとか娘さんとかね。
だけど、中学で終わってる人、何人かいたから。炭鉱夫のお金だけじゃ入れられなかったっ
ていうよりも、特に女子の場合は、女は結婚、学校なんかとんでもないっていうところ、環境で育ってるから。変だよね、行きたい人、行かなきゃね。行ける経済状態でも行かせてもらえなかった人が何人も見てるから。

ワカ： 例えば、それは女子？

ミチコ： うん。多いね。

12ワカ： 女子に多かった？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： その子たちは行きたいって言うわけ？

ミチコ： 言う。

ワカ： 言うんだ。言うけど、行かせてもらえない？

ミチコ： うん。嫁に行けって。

ワカ： 行きたいって気持ちはあるんだ、学校に。

ミチコ： 炭鉱でも、けっこういたけどね。

ワカ： でも、嫁に行けとなる？

ミチコ： あと、そう、住み込みとか働く。女は結婚っていうことは当たり前だったもんね。
でも、うち、母は自分が勉強したかったから、私に代わりにってことよね、行かせたのよね。
結果オーライなんだけど。でも、自分の中に矛盾をいっぱい抱えているわね。だから、区別とか差別とかいっぱいしちゃったって感じ。

ワカ： いっぱい知っちゃった？

ミチコ： うん。そうよね。アイヌの人と朝鮮の人をすごく差別・区別してたから、炭鉱で。
でも、私が大学、行ったときに怖いって、そういうふうに言われたから、差別・区別でしょう。

ワカ： 炭鉱夫の世界は怖いって言われた？

ミチコ： うん。そうかって感じ。

ワカ： どんな気持ち？ 言われて。

13

ミチコ： ふうんって感じ。

ワカ： 驚いたって感じ？

ミチコ： うん。だから、井の中の蛙よね。

ワカ： 知らなかったと。

ミチコ： うん。だから、社会というか大学、行ってよかったなと思う。行きたくないって言いながら。

ワカ： それは差別を知ったから？

ミチコ： 憧れてたような、自分に関係ない生活してた人がいっぱいいたから。でも、差別も軽蔑もされなかったから。

ワカ： びっくりされただけだった？

ミチコ： そう。これがもし違う所だったら、差別・区別されたでしょうね。横の関係だか
らいいわよね、学校って。

ワカ： じゃあ、みんなは炭鉱夫の娘って分かって驚いたけど、それだけ？

ミチコ： そう。怖がって、驚いて。

ワカ： 怖がって驚いた？

ミチコ： うん。だから、炭鉱の時計屋してたときに、遊びに女子学生は何人も来たよね。

ワカ： 来たんだ。

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： お母さんの実家に遊びに来た？

ミチコ： そうそう。

14ワカ： 同級生が。

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： どんなことを言ったりとか感じたりしたのかな。

ミチコ： お母さんが優しいよねって。うそだろと思ったけど。母はでデレッキを、火かき棒で私を殴ったりした。

ワカ： デレッキョウっていうの？

ミチコ： デレッキ。

ワカ： デレッキね。

ミチコ： デレッキで私を殴ったりしたけど。

ワカ： デレッキで殴るって相当、痛いよね。

ミチコ： そうよ。

ワカ： どこを殴るの？ お尻とか？

ミチコ： 忘れちゃったぐらい怖かったな。でも「あなた、お母さまってお優しいのね」って言われて。おいおい。

ワカ： お母さまはお優しいって。

ミチコ： そうか。外面いいんだと思って。怖かった。

ワカ： でも、結構、友達が泊まりに来てた？

ミチコ： 来てた。ほとんど来てたんじゃない。

ワカ： 北海道に来たことないっていう感じで来た？

15

ミチコ： そうよね。田舎を知らないからでしょう。

ワカ： 田舎に行ってみたいと思って来てた？

ミチコ： うん。それで、ババロアとか、札幌からババロアのケーキとか買ってきて、そうすると、それが半分、溶けてて、ババロアってこういうお菓子なんだとか。

ワカ： お土産としてババロアを持ってきてくれるってこと？

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： そのお友達たちが。

ミチコ： 見たことないお菓子をいっぱい持ってくるんだ。

ワカ： それを札幌のどこかで買ってくる？

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： デパートとかあった？

ミチコ： そう。みんな、空港が。

ワカ： 空港に着いて。

ミチコ： うん。だよね。きっとそうだと思うよ。お土産が普通じゃないから、私たちからしたら普通じゃないから。

ワカ： 高級なお土産が来る？

ミチコ： うん。そう。お友達の家にも行ったけど、みんな、お手伝いさんがいて。医者は看護師さんが 1 人ずつ付いててね、それぞれ。

ワカ： 看護師さんがって、その学生さんに？ お嬢さんに・・・。

16ミチコ： 子どもに 1 人、看護師さんが。

ワカ： 子どもに看護師さんが 1 人ずつ付いてる。養育係？

ミチコ： そう。そんな感じだった、昔はね。住み込みですもんね、お手伝いさんね。そうなんです。楽しかったんだ、じゃあ、やっぱり。

ワカ： 学生時代？

ミチコ： ね。高校のときも楽しかったんだ。でも、落ちこぼれの巣みたいにいわれたけど、高校のときは。でも、みんないい人だったよ。

ワカ： その高校？

ミチコ： うん。だって、みんな痛さを知ってるからかな。人を非難したり、批判したりは少なかったよね、こそこそと。女子校特有っていわれるけど、そういうのは感じなかったわね。

ワカ： いわゆる女子校のイメージではなかった？

ミチコ： うん。みんな優しかった。でも、その学校ももうとっくにないの。

ワカ： もうなくなった？

ミチコ： そう。だから、やっぱり、だよね。

ワカ： どこにあったんだっけ、札幌の何区？

ミチコ： 澄川って何区になるのかね。

ワカ： 澄川にあったんだ、取りあえず。

ミチコ： 真駒内のちょっと手前。

ワカ： 真駒内の手前ね。

17ミチコ： うん。やっぱり楽しかったんだ。

ワカ： 3 年間。

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： 人とは結構、楽しくやれるってことよね、だから、お母さんは。

ミチコ： そうか、性格悪いのにね。そんなんだった。前後しちゃったわね。

ワカ： 全然いいんだけど、性格悪いっていうのはどうして思うの。

ミチコ： だって、にこにこしてたって内心、相手を否定するもんね、いつも。

ワカ： そうなんだ。

ミチコ： うん。自分も否定するし、相手も否定するもんね。それは嫌だなって、いつも思ってた。

ワカ： いつ気が付いた？

ミチコ： 高校、落っこった頃じゃないかな。性格悪いってずっと言われてきたから、親に。

ワカ： 親に？ おばあちゃんにってこと？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： おじいちゃんには言われなかった？

ミチコ： 父は雪の中に私を一回、ぽんと捨てたことがあった、ぐずぐず言って。それしかなかったね。嫌っていうか、びっくりした、それも。えって。

ワカ： 何されるんだろうって。

ミチコ： そう。だから、訳分かんないことぐずぐず言ってた、難しい子だったんでしょう。
それが性格のいい人と結婚しちゃったから分かんないね。性格のいい人って、私みたいなの

18

に違ったものを感じるもんね。

ワカ： 性格がいいっていうのは具体的にどういうことを示すの。

ミチコ： 否定的なこと、まず、嫌み、皮肉、そういう発想ないもん。

ワカ： 確かに。

ミチコ： うん。私、嫌みばっかり言ってたし。じゃあ、悪い、やっぱり。

ワカ： 高校生のときも嫌みばっかり言ってた？

ミチコ： 嫌み、言うような相手がいなかった。

ワカ： いなかった。

ミチコ： みんな優しくて。

ワカ： 言う必要なかった。

ミチコ： でも、内心ではけち、お菓子くれなかったとか。

ワカ： 内心ね。

ミチコ： 内心、すごいののしってたから。

ワカ： そうなんだ。

ミチコ： 悪い性格。

ワカ： でも、そのぐらいのことは人にもあるような気がするけど。

ミチコ： そうかな。特別、強かったな。だけど、東京に来たらののしったことはなかった、
内心も。

ワカ： 内心もののしることがなかった？

19

ミチコ： なかった。

ワカ： 東京時代？

ミチコ： うん。だって全然、世界、違うもん。ある意味ハイレベルだから、生活がね。

ワカ： 同級生たちね。

ミチコ： うらやましいとは思わないけれども、いいなと思ったから、やっぱりうらやまし
いのかな。そうだよね。

ワカ： ののしるってどういう感情だったんだろうね。高校時代はののしってて、大学時代
はののしってなかった。

ミチコ： 自分をののしるんだよね。

ワカ： 自分をね。

ミチコ： あんまり自分が好きじゃなかったんだね、今もそうだけど。だから、ボランティ
アしてるときの私が一番好き。

ワカ： 今？

ミチコ： 今はもうできないけど。だよね。前後しちゃって、めちゃくちゃだわね。

ワカ： いいの。別に時系列で聞いてないから。

ミチコ： だから、会った瞬間に結婚しようって夫は思ってたって言うけど、そういうことってあるんだね。

ワカ： うん。

ミチコ： そうか。ものに対して否定的じゃないもんね。

ワカ： お父さん？

20ミチコ： うん。夫はいつも前向きだし。自己肯定感が高いよね。私は自己否定ばっかりだ
し。

(無言)

ミチコ： 結婚したことも話したし、ね。

ワカ： うん。

ミチコ： 炭鉱のことも話したし。

ワカ： きょうは学生時代の話が多かった。

ミチコ： 学生時代の単位を取る何とかってあるでしょう、新学期にね。

ワカ： 履修届のこと？

ミチコ： あれが全然、分かんなくて、それでみんなに手伝ってもらった。教養は幾つとか、何を幾つってあるでしょう、専門とか。

ワカ： 何科目、何単位みたいな。

ミチコ： うん。それが全然、分かんない。頭、悪かったのかな。悪いよね。それは手伝ってもらって。

ワカ： それは友達に？ 先生に？

ミチコ： 友達に。みんな、友達の親は大学出だし、兄弟も大学出だし、みんな知ってるもんね。そんな大学出でなくたって知ってて当たり前なのに私、理解できなかったね。

ワカ： それ、よく覚えてるんだ、履修に苦労したって。

ミチコ： すごいつらかったから。だから、卒業できないのは当たり前よね、単位、取れないのね。でも、みんな夫がしてくれたから。

21ワカ： 卒業できた？

ミチコ： よかったって。

ワカ： 4 年で卒業できた。

ミチコ： 邪魔だったんでしょうね、大学のほうもね。そんなことないかな。

ワカ： そんなこと分からないけどね、言われたわけじゃないでしょう。

ミチコ： うん。よかった。あと、何話す。それぐらいか。でも、夫の親はかわいそうだったよね。相手を決めてたのにね。

ワカ： 相手を決めてたんだ。

ミチコ： そうだって。

ワカ： いいなずけがいたの？ お父さんって。

ミチコ： そうじゃなくて、いいなずけはいなかったけども、どこどこの誰々って決めてたんでしょうね。

ワカ： 親同士が？

ミチコ： おばと 2 人で決めてたんでしょうね。

ワカ： ここの娘さんをもらうと？

ミチコ： うん。だから、突然、変なの連れてきてびっくりしたんじゃない。

ワカ： 大学卒業した後？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： すぐ？

22ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： お父さんが卒業したんじゃなくて、お母さんがだよね。お母さんが卒業してすぐ。

ミチコ： そう。彼は 2 年前に卒業してるから、二つ違いだから。それで、新潟の中学と高校、勤めてたのよね。母親も高校の先生だったから、そういうのでごく自然に先生になったんじゃないかな。それで、結婚しようって言われてうれしかったけど、夫のほうの親が絶対、反対して。なぜかというと、炭鉱なんて流れ者のかたまりだから、そこの娘なんてとんでもないってことで。

ワカ： 言われたんだ。

ミチコ： まただと。

ワカ： まただと思った？

ミチコ： やっぱり炭鉱って駄目なんだって思って。

ワカ： そのとき？

ミチコ： まただと思って。でも、強烈な反対を受けて。

ワカ： それは両親ともに？

ミチコ： 向こうの。

ワカ： そろって、おじいちゃんもおばあちゃんもってこと？ 私の。

ミチコ： そう。あっちも仲は悪かったんだけど。

ワカ： そうだよね。おじいちゃんとおばあちゃん仲悪かった。

ミチコ： だって、夫の父は結婚前からの、昔でいう、おめかけさんと生活してたんですもんね。たまに帰ってきたら必ず子どもができて。5 年、帰ってこなければ、5 年ぶりに子どもができてって感じで。

23ワカ： おばあちゃんとの間に子どもができてってこと？

ミチコ： うん。向こうはできなかったんだよね。できないから結婚もできなかった。明治の人だから。

ワカ： 子どもができたら結婚してたかもしれない？

ミチコ： うん。跡取りってことだもんね。それは絶対的な反対よね。ずっと大学も 2 年
間、付き合って、18 で付き合ったんだから、だから、4 年間ずっと反対してたんじゃないかな。

ワカ： お父さんは決めたの早かったから、結婚するって。だから、卒業する前からずっと言ってたんだ、この人と結婚したいと。

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： それ、ずっと反対してたってこと？

ミチコ： そう。それで、うちの親と向こうの親が一度、会ったんだけども、話が全然、合わなくて。この話はやめましょう、流しましょうって夫の母が言ったときに、私の母が「あなたの息子が北海道まで何回も来て、娘をくれって言ったんだけど、それはどういうことですか、誰の意思ですか」って。

ワカ： おばあちゃん、言った？

ミチコ： 強烈だった。それで、青山の母が引いたの。青山の親はうちの親に学歴ないから、小学校卒業だから、卒業じゃないかな、小学校も出てないような親にそんなこと言われたのですごい屈辱だった。でも、かっこよかったよ。嫌いな母でもそこはかっこよかった。

ワカ： おばあちゃん、そんなこと言ったんだ。

ミチコ： うん。だから、大学出の青山の母も内心のけぞったんじゃないかな。

ワカ： おばあちゃんって、青山のおばあちゃんは大学、出てるんだっけ？

ミチコ： 法政の通信。

24

ワカ： そうだ、法政の通信、出てるんだ。

ミチコ： だから、結構プライドがあってかっこよかったよね、母もね。

ワカ： 実際、お父さんは北海道にずっと通ってたわけ？

ミチコ： ずっと。だから、「何回も何回も来て、休みごとに何日いたんですか」って言われて。
「熱心に来たのに、そういう気持ちはどうするんですか」って。
「だって、お母さんと結婚するんじゃなくて、これは本人の問題でしょう」とかって言ってたけど。

ワカ： すごい恋愛結婚の話だよね。

ミチコ： かっこいいでしょう。

ワカ： うん。すごい。

ミチコ： 自分は、だから、好きな人と結婚できなかったからでしょう。

ワカ： そうなの？ そんな話がおばあちゃんには。

ミチコ： 代理結婚みたいなもんじゃないかな。

ワカ： いとこ同士で結婚してるんだもんね、おばあちゃんって。

ミチコ： 最も嫌いなタイプ、無学な人は大嫌いだからさ。

ワカ： だから、代理結婚させたみたいな、娘に。娘には好きな人と結婚してほしいと。

ミチコ： それはかっこよかった。今、思い出したら、かっこよかったわ。

ワカ： そんなこと言ったんだ。

ミチコ： だから、余計、強烈に反対したわけ、それから。余計。

ワカ： そうだよね。

25

ミチコ： そうしたら私も面倒くさいから「いいや、もう、私も先生、嫌いだし」って言ったら、彼は先生、ぱっと辞めたの、新潟で。

ワカ： 新潟で辞めて。

ミチコ： それで、私が新潟まで迎えに行って、そのまま北海道、行っちゃったんだけど、親の所に。

ワカ： お母さん、東京から、卒業してってこと。

ミチコ： 卒業してすぐ。

ワカ： 卒業してすぐ新潟行って、お父さんを迎えて、一緒に札幌に行った？

ミチコ： そう。昔だから駅にいっぱい生徒とか先生がお別れに来てた。昔って、汽車の窓の外でわーいわーいってやるわね、お別れ。新婚旅行でも何でも駅まで行って、わーいわー
いってやるでしょう。

ワカ： それじゃあ、ちゃんと分かってたの、みんな。お父さんは結婚するから高校、辞めて札幌に行くと。

ミチコ： そうでしょうね。

ワカ： 公になってたんだ。

ミチコ： だって何でも言う人だから。全然、隠し立てのない人だから。

ワカ： ひっそり行ったわけじゃなくて。

ミチコ： 全然。

ワカ： 堂々と見送られて出ていったんだ。

ミチコ： 花束いっぱいもらって。

26

ワカ： 花束いっぱいもらって。親のことは全く無視して？

ミチコ： うん。そう。

ワカ： すごい。

ミチコ： だから、私の親はずっと好きだったよね、夫のことはね。だって父が死んだときにひげそってくれてたもんね。それ、話が前後するか。

ワカ： お父さんね。こっちの両親にかわいがられて。

ミチコ： うん。すごい、そう。でも、大胆だよね。

ワカ： でも、堂々と花束もらって見送られるなんてすごいね。

ミチコ： でも、そういう時代だったのよね、転勤とか何とか。

ワカ： でも、言ってみれば駆け落ちなわけでしょう。

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： だけど、それもそうやってみんなが送り出すっていうのがすごいと思った。

ミチコ： そうか。部活でブラスバンドをやってて指揮やったりとか、色紙もいっぱいもら
ったわね、もうないわね。だから、好かれてたんでしょうね、裏表ないからね、私みたいに。
分かんない。

ワカ： それで、すごい反対されたけど、結婚して札幌、行ったと。

ミチコ： それで結婚して籍入れて。そしたら、新潟のほうで友雄が学校、辞めちゃったって大騒ぎになって戸籍謄本、取ったら籍が入ってて。

ワカ： 知らなかったわけね、親は。向こうの親は。

ミチコ： そう。それで大騒ぎになったらしくて、弟が、ちょうど弟は早稲田、行ってて。
早稲田、関係ないか。

27

ワカ： お父さんの弟ね。

ミチコ： そう。夏休みに私の実家まで来て、それで、兄を返してくれって、代理で来たん
だって、親の。それで、母からも何回も『あなたはだまされてるから戻ってらっしゃい』って手紙がいっぱい来てて。それをまた私が嫌な顔して手紙、見ると、あっけらかんと、はい、どうぞって読ませてもらって。そしたら『トモ、おまえはだまされてる、若いから。早く帰ってらっしゃい、籍抜いて』って書いてあるの。

ワカ： そんな手紙がどんどん来たの？

ミチコ： 来た。弟も。何とか大使。何っつうんだっけ。

ワカ： 何て言うんだっけ、こういうの。分かんないけど。

ミチコ： 全権大使？

ワカ： 全権大使。

ミチコ： 全権大使よね。

ワカ： 親の全権大使として来た？ 北海道に、札幌に。

ミチコ： うん。来てたよね。でも、全然びくともしてなかった。ああそうって感じだった。

ワカ： お父さん？

ミチコ： うん。物おじしないし、決めたことは曲げないよね。そうなの。その後でこういう話が面白いでしょう。もってったものね（友雄の定年退職記念音楽会のパンフレット）。

ワカ： うん。

ミチコ： ふらふらしてるんじゃなくて、あちこち就職はするんだけど、面接で、学校の先生を、教職を、教職の人が辞めて転職するってことは怪しいんじゃないかって。

ワカ： お父さんね。

28

ミチコ： 大きな会社に随分、断られて。それでも全然、めげずに、会社、幾つか受けて、一部上場の会社に入ってたよね。運転士として、康平運送かな。ピアノやなんか運ぶ会社で。

ワカ： 康平運送っていう所？

ミチコ： うん。そこに勤めて。その後は（イノガタレジスター＠00:45:54)って所に勤めてて。でも、どこ行っても本ばっかり読んでるから、先生って呼ばれて。でも、楽しかったみたい。

ワカ： 仕事？

ミチコ： うん。だけど、そのときに、一部上場の会社だから、たったそれだけで、半年か1 年しか勤めてない会社でも厚生年金が出て、今に至ってるの。

ワカ： 本当だよね。

ミチコ： うん。だから、偶然とはいえ、ありがたいことだよね。その間に英語は大好きだ
から、YMCA で英語、習ったりして、デンバーに行ったよね、その会社、辞めて。だから、デンバーに行って、行くときに私も妊娠して北大病院に入院してたんだけど。言ったよね。

ワカ： まだ聞いてない。

ミチコ： スパゲティ症候群っていったんだけど、昔。点滴、何本も打ってて。意識がある
んだけどしゃべれないのよね、私が。だから、あの人、怖がって、病室で、入り口でじっと見て、それで帰った。それで、次の日、デンバー行ったの。

ワカ： 次の日、デンバー行った？

ミチコ： 私は難産で、私は難産と思わなかったんだけど、看護師さんがこれは難産ですって。子どもがなかなか出てこなくて。

ワカ： それ、私ね。

ミチコ： そう。真っ白な子だったわね。なんで白いのかな。真っ白だったわね。赤ん坊って赤いかと思ったら真っ白だった。

29

ワカ： 真っ白だったんだ。

ミチコ： ちゃんと輪っか付けて。

ワカ： 輪っか？

ミチコ： うん。
「アオヤマ・ベビー」っていう。

ワカ： 赤ちゃん、手首に輪を付けてもらう。

ミチコ： そう、私は何日か預かってもらえなくて、具合悪いから。何日かたって、木のちっちゃなベッドで脇にいて、ずっと眺めてた。楽しかった。あれは幸せだよね。そんなんだったね。

ワカ： デンバーに何しに行ったの、お父さん。

ミチコ： YMCA からデンバーに何しに行った、英語の勉強かな。私、そういうの興味ないから、勉強に関して。

ワカ： 聞いてないわけね、そもそも。

ミチコ： 現地の新聞にその仲間が 4、5 人かな、載って。よく分かんないけど、それでうれしそうに私に見せてたけど、私あんまり興味ないから。それよりも赤ん坊のほうがかわい
いから、デンバーよりも。

ワカ： デンバー、どのぐらい行ってたの、お父さん。1 カ月くらい行ってた？

ミチコ： 覚えてないな。1 カ月ぐらい行ってたんでしょうね。

ワカ： 結構いなかったんだ。

ミチコ： 結構お金、払ったもんね。

ワカ： 結構お金かかった？

30

ミチコ： うん。だから、自分に経済力があるとかないとか、そういうこと一切関係なく、自分の好きなことをやってた。

ワカ： お父さん？

ミチコ： うん。北大に行きたくて北大、受けたんだけど、もう内輪で決まってた。

ワカ： 大学院、受けたんでしょう？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： 農学部の大学院、受けたってこと？

ミチコ： うん。試験もあって、すごい簡単で、「受かった」って帰ってきたら落ちてたの。
実力もなかったんでしょうけど、内部でなあなあの感じだったって、試験会場で。

ワカ： 試験会場で？

ミチコ： うん。それで、しばらくいろいろ、遊んでることはまるっきりなかったんだけど、しばらくしたら学園紛争があって、子どもが 1 歳のときかな。秋田明大とか、安田講堂とか、そういうときあったでしょう、学園紛争の。ワカ、生まれた頃だと思う。

ワカ： そうそう。

ミチコ： ビートルズが来た頃かな。

ワカ： 1968 年、1969 年ぐらい。

ミチコ： そうか。だよね。藤圭子が歌ってたときとか、あの頃だよね。その頃に学園紛争があって、日大もその真ん中にいて。それで、教職が足りなくなって、それで声が掛かったんだよね。まるっきり学歴もないし、資格もないんだけど、欠員で声が掛かってきて。それで、日本大学の研修所みたいな所が福島にあって、そこで働くことになったのね。そこは飛行場があって。あれ、何の跡かな、後で聞いてみるね。

ワカ： はい。

31

ミチコ： まだ大丈夫だから、頭ね。だから、そこで校舎で暮らしてたのよね。校舎の廃校になった所に生活してたの。

ワカ： 私たちが住んでた所は、そこ？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： 廃校になった校舎だったんだ、あれ。

ミチコ： そうそう。覚えてる？

ワカ： うっすら覚えてる。結構、広かったと思う。

ミチコ： ものすごい。傘さして、かわいかったわよ、こうやって。そこで生活して、農業工学を教えて、機械工学を教えてたのかな。農業工学を教えてたのかしらね。要するに専門学校ってのかね。日大の付属よね、農獣医学部の。

ワカ： うん。

ミチコ： そこに呼ばれて両親と娘を連れて行ったのよね。

ワカ： 私が何歳だっけ。

ミチコ： 2 歳ぐらいかしらね。

ワカ： 2 歳ぐらい。

ミチコ： うん。それからすぐ和正ができたのよね。息子がね。三つ違いよね、2 歳何カ月、違うでしょう。

ワカ： うん。

ミチコ： 3 歳違うのよね。

ワカ： 学年でいったら 2 年違う。

32

ミチコ： あっち早生まれだからね。

ワカ： そう。早生まれだから。ちょうど 50 分ぐらいたちました。

ミチコ： はい。

ワカ： きょうはこの辺で、ありがとうございました。

(了)

33

Appendix
The Life of Michiko - Narrative of the Third Interview2
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Monday, February 12, 2024, 12:30-13:23 Interview with MichikoInterviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Well, please start.
Michiko: I told you the story about how I was afraid to go to the bathroom at night in a four-room
tenement house, so my three siblings and I went there together.
Waka: Yeah, it was interesting.
Michiko: I was very scared. My parents were busy with their store, so the only time they took off
during the year was on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. And they bought us a whole butter
cake, even though we were not Christians, and the three of us ate it. My brother ate it quickly, andmy sister and I dug out the snow outside the window and put the cake in there.
Waka: This picture shows it (＃＃＃＃@00:01:01).
Michiko: The next day, no cake.

2

Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy. Highlighted

portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author would like to thank Michiko,the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan and Mr. Christian Pasion of Ateneo de Davao
University for their advice in starting this study; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the Shirokane-Takanawa
Counseling Room; Dr. Dan Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr. Reiko Kuroda of
the University of Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.

34

Waka: The next day? No cake for Uncle Yutaka?
Michiko: Because he ate it all.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: We (Michiko and her little sister) saved it because it's an important cake, which wasgiven to us only once a year.
Waka: You saved it.
Michiko: We saved it out the window. Snow blows in, but double, triple or double windows? We
put the cake in there and eat it again in the morning. We shared ours with my brother. He was
happy, saying it was fine. It was like that.
Waka: How old were you when you did this?
Michiko: Well, I was still in elementary school, I didn't go to junior high school yet. My younger
sister was three, I don't know. I think she was three, I was five, and my brother was about eight. I
was still very young, and I was very happy about the cake, so I was very young. But I was very
happy about this.
Waka: You were still 5 and 3 years old, you saved the cake properly.
Michiko: Yes, it was a great luxury. And, I know this is a bit of a long story, but when we got alandline phone, most of the houses didn't have a phone, so they called our store and I went to tellthem that there was a call, and they came to our store to answer the call. The number was 8, which
my parents wanted, because it was a lucky number called “suehirogari”. But they got 6, instead.
It looks like 8 on the bottom, “suehirogari” also, so they were also happy with it. So, our phone
number was 6, and I used to go to call them. Then I was bitten by a dog, and then I was reallyscared of dogs.
Waka: Whose dog bit you then?
Michiko: I went to tell them that they had a phone call, and as soon as I opened the front door, thedog bit me.
35

Waka: Is that the house dog there?
Michiko: Yes. That's right. Then I became afraid of dogs. We also talked about your suicide andhow they pulled it down.
Waka: I haven't heard this time, yet.
Michiko: Huh? Huh?
Waka: I haven't heard anything about pulling it down.
Michiko: I didn't pull it down.
Waka: Yes. You're talking about pulling down the body.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: I have heard that in my life, but not in this series of interviews yet.
Michiko: Huh? Did I say that?
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: I was walking with a couple of friends in a mining town, and we saw a person in (his/her)30s, maybe, running. The person looked so flustered. I was so startled that when I looked out thewindow of our house, I saw someone lying on the ground, and a big fuss was made that he hadcommitted suicide by hanging himself. It was a big deal, not that I was sad or anything, but I was
so surprised. The next day, or maybe the day after that. I saw them on the bus, I think they wererelatives, on a tiny bus, maybe going to the funeral home or going back, and through the window,
there was a person dozing off who was crying out. It was incredibly heartbreaking, all of us. That's,
nobody knows why he killed himself or anything like that, but it was as sad as a coal mine accident,a scene like that. Oh, I see, I didn't tell you.
Waka: Yeah. Yeah. Is that a neighbor?

36

Michiko: We were in different towns, but that's why we didn't know each other. That was when I
lived in the coal mine housing.
Waka: You didn't pull down the body?
Michiko: I saw it hanging? I saw it hanging. That's why I remember it.
Waka: Was that a shock to you?
Michiko: I wonder. Maybe I saw that people pulling him down. My memory of that part is a little
fuzzy.
Waka: When you were little, right?
Michiko: When I was little. Well, I think I was older then than I was saving the cake. It wassummer, I think.
Waka: It was summer.
Michiko: So the window was open. In the bathroom, a person died from boiling water, or so thestory goes.
Waka: Did the person die after falling into the bathtub?
Michiko: Yes, yes. The wooden cover of the bath, the manager, or something like that.
Waka: the manager? The wooden cover?
Michiko: The wife of the bathhouse manager fell off the wooden cover of the bath and died fromboiling water. She passed away. I don't remember anything fun, oh, well, I have a¥the cake story?
Waka: I think the cake story is symbolic of fun.
Michiko: But these days, it's not whipped cream, it's butter cake. Buttercream.
Waka: What does butter cake taste like?
37

Michiko: I don't know what it is now, but it tasted delightful.
Waka: Did it taste delightful?
Michiko: That's right. That's how it tasted
Waka: You have some dark memories in the coal mine.
Michiko: Dark memories?
Waka: Yeah. So, you know, stories about people dying that you have just mentioned.
Michiko: Also, my father was always angry when there was an accident at the coal mine. He said
that the higher-ups would not take responsibility for the accidents.
Waka: What kind of coal mine accidents have there been?
Michiko: I don't know. It must be an explosion. But no one that I know of died in the mines, notone.
Waka: There was none?
Michiko: None. But all the children knew that they were exposed to danger every day, so they
didn't make noise in front of our house where they (coal miners) were sleeping, saying "first shift,second shift, third shift," quietly and calmly. That's why I am still sensitive to sound.
Waka: Oh, I see.
Michiko: I lived a life of "shii, shii” (shhh, shhh). Did we ever have fun?
Waka: Was it rather less fun?
Michiko: I was always being told off, because I had a bad character.
Waka: Did you get a lot of flack for it?
38

Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Who gave you the idea?
Michiko: My parents. Especially my mother.
Waka: For example?
Michiko: For example, bed-wetting? You didn't get scolded for bedwetting? I don't even know
why I was told off.
Waka: But did you get scolded a lot?
Michiko: Yes. The middle doesn't get much attention.
Waka: The middle of three siblings?
Michiko: Yes. I was told that you are a smooth talker.
Waka: Did they call like that?
Michiko: Yes. I was often told that my eyes were too small or that my nose was upturned.
Waka: Grandma told you such a thing?
Michiko: Yes. I know, right? I was never hugged by my parents. That's why I was so envious of
my sister being in my father's laps. Because she was so quiet. My brother, against my parents'
wishes, couldn't fix clocks, so he went to night high school and helped out in the store during theday, but he got a lot of flack for being useless.
Waka: In that so?
Michiko: Yes. So, when he came home from night high school and had a few drinks, my parents
would beat him up at the door, I heard the sound of him being beaten up. Our parents agreed intheir criticism of their children, but they usually don't get along with each other.
39

Waka: They usually don't get along.
Michiko: They don't get along. They are pretentious in front of others. I wonder why I don’t haveany fun stories when I was a child.
Waka: Well, I wanted to hear those stories.
Michiko: Another exciting story is that I went to high school at a private school after failing all
the public schools. When I went back to my hometown, one of my friends from junior high school
told me this story. There was a delinquent boy and although he looked like a yakuza, he was very
attractive and popular. She told me that he kissed her and touched her breasts. She would tell mesuch stories with wide-eyed amazement.
Waka: Were you told that your friend had that kind of relationship with that person?
Michiko: I think it was still high school, maybe middle school. No, it was after I came back.
Waka: You went to high school in Sapporo.
Michiko: I was there.
Waka: And when you went back to your hometown and came back to Ashibetsu, your friend told
you the story?
Michiko: Yes, she is a girl from a shopping district, but we are classmates. It was interesting,because those things are things that adults talk about secretly too. When she told me that he could
insert it while he was standing up, I asked her, "What was he inserting there?”, and she was so
surprised. People living in the mines liked lewd stories. So the children liked those stories, too.
Waka: Did the people living in the mines talk about that kind of thing, even the adults?
Michiko: Adults did it often.
Waka: Adults did it all the time?

40Michiko: They did it often.
WAKA: So, did you, Mom, talk about those things in high school?
Michiko: Yes. So, though we do not know exactly what they are, we kind of know them as children.
Because adults talk about such things, ignoring children.
Waka: Interesting. That's what the adults were talking about.
Michiko: Yes. So adults were peeking in on the newlyweds' place or something. (＃＃＃＃@00:13:44) or something like that, whispering secretly. I don't think children would go to see
that.
Waka: You are not going. But did you hear?
Michiko: Yes. So when my friend told me, I thought that was the way it was, but when she told
me the story about “inserting while standing up” I really didn't know what she was talking about.
So I was good friends with her. Also, when we went to stay over, she was a girl from the same
shopping arcade, so when we all slept together upstairs, someone climbed on top of me. So I
pretended to sleep like I was desperate and had a hard time. So...
Waka: Your experience?
Michiko: Yes, yes.
Waka: Someone got on you?
Michiko: Yeah. So, I was in “kanashibari” (paralysis), but I pretended to turn over and did it manytimes. Early in the morning. So I don't know who it was, but I thought it had to be a man. I had
heard Rik-chan's story.
Waka: Based on what I heard from Rik-chan, I thought it might have been a man who got on
you.oMichiko: Yes. I was scared. So, I was afraid to talk about the lewdness....

41

Waka: Is that one of those who you slept with?
Michiko: You never know.
Waka: You must have slept side by side, in one room.
Michiko: Yes. I was sleeping at Rik-chan's place. We are all at that age, you know. It's dangerous.
Waka: Is that the story of Ashibetsu in high school?
Michiko: When I went back home. When I was in high school, I lived in a dormitory. When I wasin high school, the school was located in the mountains from the private railway station called
Sumikawa. There was a lot of snow, so I couldn't go home. I don't know if we talked about thedormitory at that time. Because we lived in a dormitory, the son of the dorm manager gave me apiggyback ride, and I was buried in the snow up to my knees, and he gave me a piggyback ride,and it was a nice feeling.
Waka: They took you to the station? So.
Michiko: He picked me up at the station.
Waka: They picked you up and took you to the dorm?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: On his back?
Michiko: Not just me, though.
Waka: Not just you, Mom, but did you carry everyone that way?
Michiko: It wasn't that the guy was nice or anything, but I thought that this is what it means totouch a man.
Waka: I see.

42

Michiko: That's right. Also, I would take a bath in the dormitory, and I wanted to lose weight, I
mean I was at that kind of age, I was fat.
Waka: Girls wanted to lose weight at that time, too?
Michiko: Yes. I gained more than 10 kilograms. I was free from my parents, so I ate as much as I
wanted and gained weight right away. When I went back to my hometown, I was told that myface had changed. Then, when we all took a bath together, some of us had water pooling in ourcollarbones, and we all touched them, saying how nice it was. Or that, each of us got a package
from home. I think we did, or didn't we? When sweets and things like that came, we each sharedthem with everyone, but I heard one person sneaking into the futon to eat.
Waka: That person didn't share?
Michiko: I didn't even ask for a share. I thought it was nice that no one said a bad word about her
being like that. Oh, did I tell you, or did I not? Also, I don't think we talked about the dormitory.
There was a senior student who had a lot of financial difficulties, and she was very smart and very
beautiful, but she had to quit at any time because she didn't have enough money or something,
and then a guy came, he was a working man, you know. So the dorm lady allowed them to bealone in a room. So...
Waka: Where were they two alone?
Michiko: In a dorm room. Because it wasn't a room for two or three people. So, we all listenedclosely. And he paid for it, until she graduated.
Waka: Did he pay her tuition?
Michiko: Yes. And then they broke up. And every one of us who usually did not way bad words
said, "Oh, I feel sorry for the guy, don't you?
Waka: After that?
Michiko: Yes. Yes. She must have been a great person, because there was nothing sexual like that,and I guess she was trying to keep it that way. But we were only 17 or 18, so I felt that it was not
fair. We were still kids
43

Waka: You're still kids, that's what you were talking about.
Michiko: Yes. I enjoyed dormitory life.
Waka: Many things happened in your dormitory life.
Michiko: There were some people who did not have to fail out of public high school, and I felt
sorry for them because they were in a different environment. I felt sorry for them because they
were in a different environment. There were also many people like me who didn't know anything
about studying and were not accepted. But there was not a single person who said, "I didn't wantto come here.”
Waka: Was it a new private school?
Michiko: Yes, I'm a second-term student.
Waka: Second term? What's a second term student?
Michiko: Founding is the first term, right?
Waka: That's what you mean.
Michiko: Yes. So this is the second year.
Waka: You mean the second year, the second term, the student who started the second year of thefoundation?
Michiko: Yes. And because there were no students yet, anyone could enter. At that time, you might
think there were some people who were a little bit despondent, but there were no such people. On
the contrary, when I entered university, there were many who said, "I didn't want to enter NichiDai, I wanted to go to any school.” I looked down on them because I thought they were of a low
degree.
Waka: Did you think that people who say such things are of low degree?

44

Michiko: Yes. I didn't think so at all in high school because not everyone was a dropout. I think it
is a part of one’s educational attainment. Hmmm.
Waka: What do you mean by "Hmmm"?
Michiko: I thought that even the best of us can fail.
Waka: Did you think that even the best can fail the test?
Michiko: On the other hand, even person like me could be accepted. It also depends on thefinancial resources of one’s parents. I learned a lot of contradictions in high school and college.
Waka: High school, college?
Michiko: Yes. I know, right? I've said it many times, but the most shocking thing for me was whensomeone said to me, "People living in the coal mines are scary.”
Waka: Everyone had such an image…in college?
Michiko: Yes. Yes, that's right. But it's good that relationships among us in college are horizontal,
so it doesn't matter where you are from.
Waka: It's a flat relationship.
Michiko: Really, it's a horizontal relationship.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: We talked about “Oneisan” (big sister) the other day.
Waka: Is this about the Oneisan? Yes.
Michiko: That's right, people who want to go (to college) would not go. People who don't want
to go (to college), and their lives are changed. It's strange. It is strange.
Waka: College.
45

Michiko: I went with such a flow.
Waka: Do you feel like you went such a flow?
Michiko: Yes. I felt that I was economically blessed. It's strange, but it's also strange that I camehere while saying it's strange.
Waka: What do you mean by strange?
Michiko: I saw some excellent people in the coal mines who really wanted to go to college, liketheir sons and daughters. But I saw them ending up in junior high school. It's not that the miners'
money alone wasn't enough to get them in, but it's because they grew up in an environment,
especially the girls, where women must get married, going to school is something impossible. It's
strange, isn't it, that those who want to go should go. I have seen many people who were notallowed to go to school even though they were in a financial position to do so.
Waka: For example, is it girls?
Michiko: Yes. There are a lot of them.
Waka: Were there many girls like that?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Did they say they wanted to go to school?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: They say it, but they are not allowed.
Michiko: No. They are told to marry.
Waka: They had the desire to go to school.
Michiko: There were quite a few in the coal mines.
46

Waka: But they were told to marry.or elese
Michiko: And, yes, or else, they would become live-in helpers. It was common for women to getmarried. But my mother wanted to study herself, so she sent me (to college) instead. I was happy
with the result. But I have a lot of contradictions within myself, don't you? That's why I havemade a lot of distinctions and discriminations.
Waka: Have you learned a lot?
Michiko: Yes. That's right. They discriminated against Ainu and Korean people in the coal mines.
But when I went to university, I was told that they were afraid of people in coal mines.
Waka: Did they tell you that the world of miners is scary?
Michiko: Yeah. I thought to myself, “I see…”
Waka: How did you feel when they told you such a thing?
Michiko: It's like, "Hmmm.”
Waka: You mean you were surprised?
Michiko: Yes. So, I am a frog in a well.
Waka: You mean, you didn't know (there was such an image about coal mines and its people)
Michiko: Yes. So, I am glad that I went to university, or society. Even though I said I didn't want
to go.
Waka: Is that because you learned of the discrimination?
Michiko: Because there were so many people who lived a life that was not related to me, like I
admired. But I wasn't discriminated or disrespected.
Waka: They were just surprised.
47

Michiko: Yes. If it had been a different place, I would have been discriminated against. Schools
are good because we can have a horizontal relationship.
Waka: So everyone was surprised to find out that you are a coal miner's daughter, but that's it?
Michiko: Yes. They were scared and surprised.
Waka: Scared and surprised?
Michiko: Yeah. So, when my parents were running a clock shop in the coal mine, a number offemale students came to visit us for holidays.
Waka: They came.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: They came to visit your family, Mom?
Michiko: Yes, yes.
Waka: Your classmates.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: What did they say or feel?
Michiko: They say that my mother was very kind. I thought, "No way. My mother used to beatme with a poker.
Waka: Is it called “derekkyou”?
Michiko: Derekki.
Waka: Derekki.

48

Michiko: She even hit me with a derekki.
Waka: Hitting with a derekki is quite painful, isn't it?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Where did she hit you? Like in the buttocks?
Michiko: I was so scared that I forgot about it. But they said to me, "She is so kind, your mother.”Oh, man.
Waka: They said that your mother is kind.
Michiko: I see. I thought she put on a good front. I was scared.
Waka: But did you have a lot of friends visiting your family?
Michiko: They came. I think most of them came.
Waka: Was it like they had never been to Hokkaido before?
Michiko: That's right. It's probably because they don't know the countryside.
Waka: Did they come here to visit the countryside?
Michiko: Yes. So they would buy bavarois, or bavarois cakes from Sapporo, and they would be
half melted, and I thought, wow, this is a pastry called bavarois.
Waka: You mean they're bringing you bavarois as souvenirs?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Those friends of yours.
Michiko: They would bring a lot of candy I've never seen before.

49

Waka: Did they get that somewhere in Sapporo?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Was there a department store or something?
Michiko: Yes. Everyone, the airport.
Waka: Arrive at the airport (and they cakes for souvenirs there).
Michiko: Yes. Right. I'm sure that's true. Because the souvenirs are not the usual ones, from ourpoint of view, they are not the usual ones.
Waka: They would bring high-end souvenirs?
Michiko: Yes. Yes, that's right. I went to my friend's house, but everyone had a nanny. The doctors
had a nurse with them, each one.
Waka: You mean to the nurse, to that student? To the young lady...
Michiko: One nurse for one child.
Waka: There is one nurse for each child. A nursemaid?
Michiko: Yes. It was like that in the past. They lived in the house, didn't they, nannies? That's
right. Well, so, I had fun then after all.
Waka: When you were a student?
Michiko: Yes. I had fun in high school, too. But our high school was called like a nest of dropouts.
But everyone was nice.
Waka: That high school?
Michiko: Yes. Because we all know the pain. There was less blaming and criticizing. People say
it had typical characteristics of an all-girls school, but I didn't feel that.
50

Waka: You didn't think of it as a so-called girls' school?
Michiko: Yes. Everyone was kind to me. But that school is long gone.
Waka: Is it gone?
Michiko: Yes. So, as I thought.
Waka: Where was it located, what ward of Sapporo?
Michiko: What ward is Sumikawa in?
Waka: It was in Sumikawa, for now.
Michiko: Just before Makomanai.
Waka: Just before Makomanai.
Michiko: Yes. It was fun after all.
Waka: Three years.
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: It means you can have a lot of fun with people, so, mom.
Michiko: Okay, even though I have a bad personality. That's how it was. Our interview has goneback and forth, hasn’t it?
Waka: It's totally fine, but why do you think you have a bad personality?
Michiko: Because, even if I smile, I always deny the other person inwardly.
Waka: I see.

51

Michiko: Yes. I deny oneself, and the other person also denies you. I always felt that I didn't want
to do that.
Waka: When did you notice?
Michiko: I think it was around the time I failed the high school (entrance examination). I was
always told I had a bad personality, I mean, my parents told me.
Waka: Your parents? You mean, my grandmother?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Grandpa didn't tell you?
Michiko: My father once dumped me in the snow with a plop, complaining that I was gagging.
That was the only time. I didn't like it, I was surprised, too. I was like, "What happened?”
Waka: You wondered what he would do to you, right?
Michiko: Yes. So, I must have been a difficult girl who talked about incomprehensible things. But,
after all, I married a man of good character. I don't understand it. A person of good character feels
something different about someone like me, perhaps.
Waka: What exactly does it mean to have a good personality?
Michiko: Negative, first of all, sarcasm, irony, he does not have such ideas.
Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: Yes. I was always sarcastic. Then, I'm sorry, after all.
Waka: Were you always sarcastic in high school?
Michiko: I didn't have anyone to be sarcastic to.
Waka: None.
52

Michiko: Everyone was so kind.
Waka: You didn’t have to be sarcastic.
Michiko: But secretly, I thought they were stingy and didn't give me sweets.
Waka: In your innermost thoughts.
Michiko: Secretly, I was very disrespectful.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: Bad character.
Waka: But it seems to me that people have that kind of thing in common.
Michiko: I don't know. Mine was very strong. But when I came to Tokyo, I was never sarcastic toanyone, not even in my innermost heart.
Waka: Not even in your innermost heart?
Michiko: Never.
Waka: When you were in Tokyo?
Michiko: Yes. Because their world is totally different. In a sense, it's a high level of living.
Waka: Your classmates.
Michiko: I don't envy you, but I thought it was nice, so I guess I am still envious. I guess so.
Waka: I wonder what kind of feelings you had when you were cursing others. You cursed othersin high school, but you did not when you were in college.
Michiko: It’s like I was cursing myself.
53

Waka: Yourself.
Michiko: I guess I didn't like myself very much, and I still don't. That's why I like myself bestwhen I am volunteering.
Waka: Now?
Michiko: I can't do it now. I know, right? Our interview has gone back and forth. It's a mess.
Waka: It's okay. I'm not asking in chronological order.
Michiko: So, my husband says that he thought of marrying me the moment he met me. I was
surprised that such do happen.
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: I see. He is not negative about things.
Waka: Dad?
Michiko: Yes. My husband is always positive. He has a high sense of self-affirmation. I am always
self-denying.
(Silence)
Michiko: I also told you that I got married, you know.
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: We also talked about the coal mine.
Waka: Today we talked a lot about yourschool days.
Michiko: There's something about getting credits when you're a student, you know, in the newsemester.
54

Waka: You mean the course registration form?
Michiko: I had no idea what it was, so everyone helped me. I had to ask everyone to help me out.
Waka: Like how many courses, how many credits.
Michiko: Yes. I don't understand that at all. I guess I was not very smart. I was bad, wasn't I? I
had help with that.
Waka: Is that your friend, or teacher?
Michiko: My friends. Everyone knows how it goes, for their parents are college graduates, theirsiblings are college graduates, and so on. I couldn't understand it, even if they didn't go to college.
Waka: I remember that very well, that you had a hard time completing the course registration.
Michiko: It was very hard. So it was no wonder I couldn't graduate, because I couldn't get credits.
But my husband did everything for me.
Waka: Did you graduate?
Michiko: I'm glad.
Waka: You were able to graduate in four years.
Michiko: It must have been disturbing, and the university too. I don't think so.
Waka: I don't know, they didn't tell you such a thing, did they?
Michiko: Right. I'm glad. What else do you want me to talk about? That's about it. But I feel sorry
for my husband's parents. They had already decided on a partner for him.
Waka: They had someone for him in mind already.
Michiko: That's right.
55

Waka: Did he have a fiancée, Dad?
Michiko: No, I don't think so. I guess he didn’t have a fiancée, but his parents decided who it mustbe.
Waka: Parents to parents?
Michiko: I guess his mother and his aunt decided together.
Waka: They would marry him to this particular daughter, like that?
Michiko: Yes. That's why they were surprised when he suddenly brought in a strange one.
Waka: After college?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Soon after graduation?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Not Dad, I mean, soon after you, Mom, graduated from college.
Michiko: Yes. He graduated two years ago, for our age gap is two years. So he worked at a juniorhigh school and a high school in Niigata. His mother was also a high school teacher, so I thinkthat's why he became a teacher quite naturally. I was happy when he asked me to marry him, but
my husband's parents were absolutely against it. The reason is that coal mines are full of strangers(pikers), and marrying a daughter of a coal miner is a terrible idea.
Waka: That’s what you were told
Michiko: Again.
Waka: You thought you had the same thing said to you again.

56

Michiko: I knew that people discriminated against people from coal mines.
Waka: At that time?
Michiko: I thought it happened again. I received strong opposition.
Waka: Is that from both parents of Dad?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: You mean, both of my grandparents (on that side)?
Michiko: Yes. They didn't get along with each other, either, though.
Waka: That's right. Grandpa and grandma didn't get along.
Michiko: Because my husband's father, before their marriage, had lived with a woman we used
to call “mekake”（mistress）. If he came home for the first time in five years, they would have achild for the first time in five years, like that.
Waka: You mean that how they made children, my grandparents (on that side)?
Michiko: Yes. He and his mistress did not have a child. Because he couldn't have a child from her,
he couldn't marry her, either. Because he was a person of the Meiji era.
Waka: Would he have married her if they had children?
Michiko: Yes. That means heir, right? They gave us absolute opposition (about the marriage). We
dated for two years all through college, and we dated at 18, so I think that his parents had been
against it for the whole four years.
Waka: Dad decided very early on that he was going to get married. So he kept saying, even before
you graduated, he wants to marry this person.
Michiko: Yes.
57

Waka: Does that mean his parents were against it all along?
Michiko: Yes. So my parents and their parents met once, but the conversation did not go well atall. When my husband's mother said, "Let's not talk about this, let's just give it up," my mothersaid, "Your son came to Hokkaido several times and asked me to give him my daughter, what
does that mean?
Waka: Grandma, did she say that?
Michiko: It was intense. So Aoyama's mother pulled out. Aoyama's parents were offended, for it
was a great humiliation because they were told such a thing by parents who didn't even graduate
from elementary school, I think. But it was cool. Even my mother, who I hated, was cool there.
Waka: Grandma, she said that.
Michiko: Yes. That's why Aoyama's mother, a college graduate, must have been horrified inside.
Waka: Grandma, did Aoyama's grandma have a college education?
Michiko: Hosei’s correspondence course.
Waka: Yes, Hosei's correspondence, that’s right.
Michiko: So, my mother acted pretty proud and cool.
Waka: In fact, did Dad visit Hokkaido always?
Michiko: All the time. So they said, "How many times did your son come, and how many days
did he stay for each vacation? She said, "he came so eagerly, but what about those feelings?" Shesaid, "Because my daughter is not marrying his mother, it is their business."
Waka: It's a great love marriage story.
Michiko: Isn't it cool?

58

Waka: Yeah. That's great.
Michiko: My mother herself could not t marry someone she loved.
Waka: Really? Such a story for my grandmother…….
Michiko: I think it's like a proxy marriage.
Waka: Cousins marry each other, right, grandma’s case?
Michiko: She married to a type of man she hated the most, because she hated uneducated people.
Waka: So it's like she married you by proxy, as her daughter. She wanted her daughter to marrysomeone her daughter loved.
Michiko: That was cool. Now that I remember it, it was cool.
Waka: She said such a thing.
Michiko: That's why his parents became even more strongly against it. Indeed.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: Then I said, "No, I don't like teachers anyway," because it was too much trouble for me,
and then he quit his job as a teacher in Niigata.
Waka: He quit it in Nigata.
Michiko: So I went to Niigata to pick him up, and we went to Hokkaido to stay with my parents.
Waka: Mom, you mean, you went there from Tokyo right after graduation?
Michiko: Right after graduation.
Waka: Did you go to Niigata right after graduation, pick up Dad, and go to Sapporo together?

59

Michiko: Yes. In the old days, many students and teachers came to the station to say goodbye. In
the old days, we would say goodbye outside the train window. Even on honeymoons, they would
go to the station and say "wai-wai-wai".
Waka: So they knew exactly what you were doing, didn't they? He was going to quit high school
and go to Sapporo because he was getting married.
Michiko: I'm sure they did.
Waka: It was public.
Michiko: Because he says anything. He doesn't hide anything at all.
Waka: You didn't leave there quietly.
Michiko: Not at all.
Waka: You walked out with dignity.
Michiko: He got a lot of flowers.
Waka: He got a bunch of flowers. And he totally ignored his parents?
Michiko: Yes. Yeah.
Waka: Wow.
Michiko: So, my parents always liked my husband. I mean, when my father died, he shaved his
beard for me. That's a bit of a back-and-forth.
Waka: Your father. Your parents took good care of him over there.
Michiko: Yeah. That's great, yes. But it's bold.
Waka: But it's great that everyone saw you off with a bouquet of flowers in such a dignified
manner.
60

Michiko: But those were the days, you know, transfers and whatnot.
Waka: But, if you put it that way, you are eloping, aren't you?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: But I thought it was great that everyone sent you out like that.
Michiko: Well. He played in the brass band in the school club and conducted, and he got a lot of
messages on message boards, which have been lost already. I guess that shows how much they
liked him. I don't know.
Waka: So you got married and went to Sapporo, even though they were really against it.
Michiko: So we got married and registered. Then, there was a big fuss in Niigata that Tomoo had
quit school, and when they took his family register, they found that he was married.
Waka: So they didn't know, did they? His parents.
Michiko: No. His younger brother was just going to Waseda (University). Waseda, that has
nothing to do with it, though.
Waka: Your father's younger brother.
Michiko: Yes. He came to my parents' house for summer vacation, and so he said he came on his
parents’ behalf to ask us to return his brother to them. And my husband also received many lettersfrom his mother saying, "You are being cheated, so come back.” When I looked at the letterswith a disgusted look on my face, he would just read them and say, "Here you go. “ So, I readthem. She wrote, "Tomoo, you are deceived because you are young. Go home soon, and remove
your registration.”
Waka: Did you get more and more letters like that?
Michiko: Exactly. His brother, too. It was like he was some kind of ambassador. What's it called?

61

Waka: What is it called? I don't know.
Michiko: Ambassador plenipotentiary?
Waka: Ambassador plenipotentiary.
Michiko: You are an ambassador plenipotentiary.
Waka: Did you come as an ambassador plenipotentiary of his parents? To Hokkaido, to Sapporo.
Michiko: Yes. He kept coming. But he (Tomoo) didn't seem to be scared at all. It was like, "Oh,yeah.”
Waka: Dad?
Michiko: Yes. He is not shy, and he does not bend what he has decided to do. True. It would beinteresting to talk about this afterwards, wouldn't it? I brought this (a pamphlet for Tomoo's
retirement concert).
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: He was not wandering around, he was just trying to find a job here and there, but at theinterview, they would wonder why he quit teaching and tried to change his job.
Waka: Dad.
Michiko: He was turned down by many large companies. But he was not discouraged at all, andhe applied to several companies and got a position in a company listed on the first section of theTokyo Stock Exchange. I think it was Kohei Transportation as a driver. It was a company thattransported pianos and other things.
Waka: A place called Kohei Transport?
Michiko: Yes. He worked there. After that, he worked at a place called (Inogata Register @00:45:54). But wherever he went, he was always reading books, so they called me "sensei"(teacher). But I think he enjoyed it.
62Waka: He enjoyed working?
Michiko: Yes. But at that time, because the company was listed on the first section of the Tokyo
Stock Exchange, even though he only worked for the company for six months or a year, he got an
employee's pension.
Waka: It's true.
Michiko: Yeah. So, even though it was just a coincidence, I am grateful. He went to Denver, andhe quit his job and went to the YMCA. So he went to Denver, and when he went there, I was
pregnant, too, and I was in the Hokkaido University Hospital. I told you.
Waka: I haven't heard yet.
Michiko: There is such a thing called “spaghetti syndrome.” I had many IVs. I was conscious, but
I couldn't talk. So he was scared, and he was in the hospital room, staring at the doorway, andthen he left. So the next day, he went to Denver.
Waka: Did he go to Denver the next day?
Michiko: I had a difficult delivery. I didn't think it was difficult, but the nurse said this was adifficult delivery. The child didn't come out easily.
Waka: That's me.
Michiko: Yes. You were a pure white girl. I wonder why you were white. You were pure white. I
thought babies were red, but you were pure white.
Waka: I was pure white.
Michiko: You had a band around on.
Waka: A band?
Michiko: Yes. It has letters "Aoyama Baby” on.
63Waka: Oh, I see, that’s an identification bracelet for a baby.
Michiko: Yes, I couldn't keep you for a few days, because I wasn't feeling well. After a few days,
you stayed in a tiny wooden bed in my room and I kept looking at it. It was fun. I was happy.
That’s how I was feeling.
Waka: What was he doing in Denver, Dad?
Michiko: What brought him to Denver from the YMCA? Studying English? I was not interested
in what he was doing, for I’m not interested in studying.
Waka: So you didn't ask him in the first place.
Michiko: Four or five of them appeared in the local newspaper. I don't know, but he seemed happy
to show it to me, but I’m not really interested in it. I'm more interested in my baby than Denver.
Waka: How long did he go to Denver, Dad, about a month?
Michiko: I don't remember, he must have been there for about a month.
Waka: So, he was gone for some time.
Michiko: We paid quite a bit of money.
Waka: Did it cost a lot of money?
Michiko: Yes. So he was doing what he wanted to do, regardless of whether he had financial
resources or not.
Waka: Dad?
Michiko: Yes. he wanted to go to Hokkaido University, so I applied, but it was already decided
within the university.
Waka: He took the entrance examination for the graduate school there, didn’t he?
64

Michiko: Yes.
Waka: You mean he applied for the graduate school of agriculture?
Michiko: Yes. There was an exam, and he said it was very easy, and when he came back homesaying, "I passed," but actually, he failed. I guess he did not do well enough to make it, but at thesame time, he felt at the examination site that the others knew one another, and that they sharedsome kind of common knowledge on how the exam would be actually administered.
Waka: At the entrance examination site?
Michiko: Yes. Then, after that, he did not have a job, but it does not mean he was playing around.
After a while, there was a school conflict, when my child was one year old. Akita Meidai, Yasuda
Auditorium, and so on. Waka, I think it was around the time you were born.
Waka: Yes, yes.
Michiko: Around the time the Beatles came.
Waka: About 1968, 1969.
Michiko: I see. That's right. It was around that time when Keiko Fuji was singing. There was aschool conflict at that time, and Nichi-Dai (Nihon University) was in the middle of it. There wasa shortage of teaching positions, and that's why he was called upon. He had no academic
background or qualifications at all, but he was called upon to fill a vacancy. So he went to workat a training institute of Nihon University in Fukushima. There was an airfield there. I'll ask themlater what there used to.
Waka: Yes.
Michiko: It's still okay, you know, my head. So we lived there in the school building. We lived in
an abandoned school building.
Waka: Is that where we lived?

65

Michiko: Yes.
Waka: It was an abandoned school building, that one.
Michiko: Yes, yes. Do you remember?
Waka: I vaguely remember. I think it was pretty big.
Michiko: It really was. You were so cute, with your umbrella, like this. I remember that he wasprobably teaching agricultural engineering and mechanical engineering. It was a technical school,
you know. It was affiliated with Nihon University, the Faculty of Agriculture and Veterinary
Medicine.
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: He was invited there and took my parents and his daughter.
Waka: How old was I?
Michiko: I would say around 2 years old.
Waka: About 2 years old.
Michiko: Yes. Soon after that, Kazumasa was born. My son. You are three years older than him.
Your age gap is two years and months, right?
Waka: Yeah.
Michiko: You are three years apart.
Waka: In terms of grades, we are two years apart.
Michiko: He was born early (born between January 1st and April 1st).
Waka: Yes. he was born early. Well, it's been just about 50 minutes.

66Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Thank you very much for your time today.
(End)67