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Good Guru, Bad Guru (Read 8713 times)

beyond the stars
Ex Member

Good Guru, Bad Guru
« on: 16.04.2011 at 01:18 [UT+1] »I've been researching spiritual leaders who lead their flock astray, in an attempt to understand the complicateddynamics that lead people to follow someone who is clearly crazy by the standards of ordinary suburbia, but
who is nonetheless charismatic for the lost and vulnerable. This phenomenon can hit almost anyone at any age;men and women all become deluded by the promise of being accepted by someone who makes themspiritually-based promises they can't keep.
In my research, I have heard of the Brahma Kumaris, a worldwide organization that claims to help communities
through service and education, but apparently feeds off of devoted, deluded followers, mostly women, butsome men fall for this line too. Living in California, I knew of people who became Hare Krishnas, or at the very
least, investigated becoming Hare Krishna, but were left with a bad taste in their mouth about organized
religion in general, and cults masquerading as religions in particular. A lot of cults seem to start with their focus
and attention on one charismatic spiritual leader, and then go hideously wrong when the man's ego gets out ofcontrol, or the craziness (like that of Hitler, a charismatic, arguably "cult-like" leader) can no longer be denied.
Here is the chart of someone I consider obviously bad, Charles Manson, whose ego and self-delusion seems tohave known no bounds. I'm wondering if anyone has the chart of a 'good' guru who has proved to be truly
spiritual, or other bad gurus, who lead the innocent away from their true path?
Also, if one were looking for a spiritual guide or leader, what would you look for (not necessarily astrologically)?
Are there particular warning signs you might be careful to check for? I still know people who are sucked into
groups like the Brahma Kumaris. In fact, not that long ago, I started to listen to someone who I thought was agood guy, but she turned out to be a fraud, Little Grandmother aka Kiesha Crowther, but I don't have her birthtime info.
http://www.bkwsu.org/
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,40300
http://littlegrandmother.net/default.aspx
http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2011/01/kiesha-crowther-exposed-as-fraud .html
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dailynews

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #1 - on: 16.04.2011 at 01:37 [UT+1] »2 cents here. You must be young. Charley Manson simply a crazy manipulator /criminal and hardly fitting into
any theme you might be looking at of good guru, bad guru...

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100thMonkey
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #2 - on: 16.04.2011 at 01:39 [UT+1] »How about Billy Graham?
The sun bang in the middle of Scorpio on cusp of H8. Interesting chart with the two t-squares, can see thePosts: 900

motivating drives. Chiron as the apex of one t-square with moon/mars, pluto and on critical degree of 29lH12
and on the AC/DC vertex axis too.
And Mercury POF on the 2/8 axis as the t-square apex between Uranus and Saturn. Venus burnt by the Sun

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #3 - on: 16.04.2011 at 01:48 [UT+1] »when i think of a good guru, i think of norman vincent peale who has helped me a lot with his very practicaladvice from his books. the best advice ever was, 'if you are having a problem that you simply cannot seem tosolve, you might consider just giving it over to god."
Posts: 3650
Gender:a bad guru would be jim jones or david koresh or that dude that castrated everybody and then had them allcommit mass suicide waiting on 'the mother ship'.
what about the mahareshi mahesh yogi who the beatles made famous?

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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #4 - on: 16.04.2011 at 01:52 [UT+1] »Ah, very interesting, 100th Monkey... I am very curious if the 12th house plays a part in what appears on thesurface not being what is necessarily going on underneath the message to the masses, and will have to explore
his N placement.
Ah, Daily News: would that it were so: no, youth and I parted company long ago. Isn't Charles Mansonclassified in history as a charismatic cult-like leader/guru type? I thought he was. Minimizing his emotional holdat the time (1968-ish, when I was 9-ish) on the women he entranced, is not in my "grand design," not that I
have one.
Best not to assume much of anything. Instead, we shall carry on, investigating with open minds, wheneverpossible.
OMG, Shawn, I had not heard of a castration cult!!

I have been looking up Mahareshi yogis, actually. I havedecided I know nothing about them.
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dailynews

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #5 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:07 [UT+1] »I think its a good theme(good-bad guru) with some great suggestions.
I dont believe CM had such a wide influence beyond his family . The awful killings and the major media "of thetimes" of anti establishment / easy rider times were pretty sensational.
Posts: 215

I think of the term guru in a kind of traditional/spirtual teacher sense yet realize some folks might call themselves a guru when they might just fall into being a workshop leader.
« Last Edit: 16.04.2011 at 16:09 [UT+1] by dailynews »Back to top

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100thMonkey
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #6 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:10 [UT+1] »Here is another interesting chart another 12H N too. Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. you can see he worked that
grand trine
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rajneesh%2C_Bhagwan_Shree
Posts: 900

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Linda Harris

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #7 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:19 [UT+1] »So.....i guess first you have to define "guru"....huh?
LainiePosts: 17033
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dailynews
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #8 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:21 [UT+1] »good: Ramana Maharshi,
bad:

Sun Myong Moon(Moonies)

Posts: 215

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Linda Harris

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #9 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:25 [UT+1] »Billy Graham was a text-book proselytizer.
I believe a true GURU leads you inward to the most spiritual and true person YOU can be. If you are going tofind anyone, it will be the God inside you.
Posts: 17033

Proselytizers lead you to believe in a person/power/ entity OUTSIDE yourself....and the proselytizer tells you tofollow him/her and you will be lead to the altar of this entity.
So again, definition.
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100thMonkey
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #10 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:29 [UT+1] »good guru/bad guru?
Just guru. i guess i loosely defined a Guru as someone who attracts followers with some kind of promise of

Posts: 900'spiritual' enlightenment. And possessing some kind of charisma that incites said followers to follow. Good/bad?
You be the judge.
The TRUE guru? Will always be you.

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dailynews

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #11 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:42 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 16.04.2011 at 02:29 [UT+1]:
good guru/bad guru?
Just guru. i guess i loosely defined a Guru as someone who attracts followers with some kind of promise of 'spiritual' enlightenment. And
possessing some kind of charisma that incites followers. Good/bad? You be the judge.

Posts: 215

The TRUE guru? Will always be you.

I kind of go for that. It is rather subjective be it out of personal values /or some set of standards/judgements.
Osho had some contriversal ways yet he also was pretty brilliant pointer too.
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Ms. Miranda
MemberMore Goo than roo...
« Reply #12 - on: 16.04.2011 at 02:56 [UT+1] »Daily news... It's ill advised to dismiss Charles Manson as "crazy". Crazy people don't know how to manipulate
anything but their own personal reality.
He was quite "gifted" with manipulating people (AmD) with his demi-god persona OH12th - the God Box, andmaking it all look like "spiritual family" JeH4pDH9. He's able to convince people that are more powerful than
him that he's more powerful than them. He's a very small man in stature. The interesting thing about Uranus in
the 12th is that when the people who "blow up their skirts" they don't correct them for doing so. There is no
humility here. Lots of delusion of self.
David Koresh had a similar dynamic of energies in play in his chart OeH11. And, interestingly enough thesemen share a ApG aspect, as well as an aspected N in air... nothing that is self-reflective. Self deluded...
Arrogant/pathetic... Interesting.
Posts: 3684
Gender:James Arthur Ray... there's another one for the books... i in overdrive, not unlike an over active 9th house;same N in an air sign issue. This was an interesting blog I encountered looking up Ray:
http://outthecometsass.blogspot.com/2009/10/1957-problems.html, which is entitled "1957problems".

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judyanne

Member

Re: More Goo than roo...
« Reply #13 - on: 16.04.2011 at 03:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 16.04.2011 at 02:56 [UT+1]:i

N

James Arthur Ray... there's another one for the books...
in overdrive, not unlike an over active 9th house; samein an air sign issue.
This was an interesting blog I encountered looking up Ray: http://outthecometsass.blogspot.com/2009/10/1957-problems.html,
which is entitled "1957 problems".

Oh hey. I had forgotten about that blog. The author posts here occasionally; I knew her from a different
forum. Very gifted and bright astrology enthusiast.

Posts: 2012
Gender:I do think there is probably an out-of-whack Jupiter or Sag or 9th house factor in any cult leader, as well as inanyone who might be driven to follow such a person.
I really do have to thank the Goddess for my iG and my j 9th house. It has probably kept me fromthrowing myself under the spiritual bus, so to speak, in following some random spiritual nut job that I might
have met in my many years of living in Northern California (and I've met quite a few).

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dailynews
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #14 - on: 16.04.2011 at 03:08 [UT+1] »not dismissing him(CM) as just crazy( gets back to definitions). ....he was a crazy manipulator and yes I see thecrazy like a fox element too.
If its relevant that a crazy person can only manipulate their personal reality ,he(CM) may have had a glint or
Posts: 215

two that there was/is no seperation of self and other...he and his family.He certaintly expounded such truisms
over the while.

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dailynews

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #15 - on: 16.04.2011 at 03:42 [UT+1] »Ammachi is fairly recognized as spiritual leader&guru. defintely a power figure. J

Posts: 215
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ShawnC
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #16 - on: 16.04.2011 at 06:09 [UT+1] »the castration cult was called heaven's gate and this happened in 1997. 39 people died in a mass suicide

Posts: 3650
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #17 - on: 16.04.2011 at 07:21 [UT+1] »@Shawn: Good lord in heaven. That is disgusting.
@Lainie: Yes, we need definitions. I think that's an excellent place to begin.

What is a guru? The word itself

implies something positive (but maybe that's just me, since I don't have a negative connotation YET).

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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #18 - on: 16.04.2011 at 09:37 [UT+1] »It seems the idea started being more about "teacher", but we use it now more often to refer to "having
followers".
In the entry "guru" in wikipedia (where we can see several definitions), there is a list of 10 (good important
Sikh gurus of history) with birth dates, and their Suns are like this:
4 Aries
2 Capricorn
1 Libra1 Cancer
1 Taurus
1 Gemini
That means there are only 2 who are not Cardinal Suns (Gem and Tau).
I don't know anything about real gurus, but I have always regarded Aries as the most typical gurus, so it is afunny coincidence to see that table.
But I would not have related guru in general to Cardinal, but especially to Fire: they can be very active people
passing on to others their idealism, enthusiasm, hope, confidence...
Then, Cardinals would be the leaders, in general, but it does not have to be about Life Philosophies.
And Fire could be the Life Philosophers, but maybe Leo and Sagittarius are not so much into leading. There areseveral Sagittarius in my family, and they could often say things like "Life is like this and like that", "In life one
has to/can/cannot...", that is, general ideas they believe in, though they can change in time, of course.
(I've thought of some Leo politicians whose leading style is more guru-like than normal, but it is probably
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MarleEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #19 - on: 16.04.2011 at 09:44 [UT+1] »A good guru I know is an Aries Sun. He was only in his early 30s when I started to know him. He is the ownerof a photography site, and started it with a set of doctrines to follow. This was some kind of a joke, and it
includes the concepts of cult, retirement and many other words associated with gurus and such. It is all a joke,
but I read it and think "you know you are a guru"
People follow just because it is funny, and because there is a lot of charisma, generosity (you don't pay
anything there and just receive information, help, etc.), intelligence, inspiration, good intentions...
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Ethereal
Mountain

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #20 - on: 16.04.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from 100thMonkey on 16.04.2011 at 02:10 [UT+1]:
Here is another interesting chart another 12H

N too.Â Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. you can see he worked that grand trine

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rajneesh%2C_Bhagwan_Shree

Posts: 1039
Gender:also J-N-A=yod, and B is o O and n J. He probably believed his own BS to some extent, but he needed
his followers to help him believe it. Different to CM and Billy Graham who both share AmD in h and the wide

B-J opposition. One has O in the 12th, the other N in the 12th. They seemed to be driven more by selflove/wanting to be loved by the many, than really believing they were some higher being.
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Calanthe Uigenna

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #21 - on: 16.04.2011 at 11:53 [UT+1] »It might interest you to know that Guru is the name for F in vedic astrology. 'Gu' stands for darkness, and 'Ru'
dispeller.

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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #22 - on: 16.04.2011 at 12:03 [UT+1] »Quote from Calanthe Uigenna on 16.04.2011 at 11:53 [UT+1]:
It might interest you to know that Guru is the name for

F in vedic astrology.

That's interesting. I didn't know.
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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #23 - on: 16.04.2011 at 13:17 [UT+1] »That is interesting Calanthe

Posts: 900

guru Look up guru at Dictionary.com
1800, gooroo, from Hindi guru "teacher, priest," from Skt. guru-s "one to be honored, teacher," lit. "heavy,
weighty," from PIE base *gru- (see grave (adj.)). Generalized sense of "mentor" is from 1940; sense of "expert
in something" first recorded c.1966 in Canadian English in reference to Marshall McLuhan

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Pearl Diver
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #24 - on: 16.04.2011 at 14:27 [UT+1] »The age of gurus is coming to an end I hope... nothing a guru has access to is not accessible to everyone.
Gurus who set themselves up as having a special telephone line will be increasingly going against the grain.
The problem is the cynical use of glamour and the desire for fame and status and money, and people are used
to the sense that someone will raise them to some transcendent mountain top which only exists within theimbalance of power fostered by the guru relationship. And it may be a little uncomfortable adjusting to the factthat the mountain is hidden under the pile of paperwork on the living room table (if you have a living roomthat is). But we'll get there...
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Calanthe Uigenna

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #25 - on: 16.04.2011 at 14:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Pearl Diver on 16.04.2011 at 14:27 [UT+1]:
The age of gurus is coming to an end I hope...

We're in an age of gurus? When did it start?

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ViragoMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #26 - on: 16.04.2011 at 16:16 [UT+1] »I grew up in Boulder Colorado, where there are so many alternative religions/lifestyles that many parents try tocult proof their kids before the kids are out on their own. It's also a college town, so lots of young people on

Posts: 345

their own for the first time provide fodder for these groups. Just off the top of my head there is
Scientology/Dyanetics/MindSpring, The Rashneej, E-Men, Urantia, Children of God (Moonies), Hari
Krishna...some of these have probably waned since I lived there, while new ones have sprung up.
I found L. Ron Hubbard's chart here, but I can't get it to link. He had l A, i ASC and a grand trine in water.
I looked for David Miscavige's chart, but didn't find it. His birthdate is April 30, 1960.

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #27 - on: 16.04.2011 at 16:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Virago on 16.04.2011 at 16:16 [UT+1]:
I grew up in Boulder Colorado, where there are so many alternative religions/lifestyles that many parents try to cult proof their kids before
the kids are out on their own. It's also a college town, so lots of young people on their own for the first time provide fodder for thesegroups. Just off the top of my head there is Scientology/Dyanetics/MindSpring, The Rashneej, E-Men, Urantia, Children of God (Moonies),
Hari Krishna...some of these have probably waned since I lived there, while new ones have sprung up.
I found L. Ron Hubbard's chart here, but I can't get it to link. He hadl A, i ASC and a grand trine in water. I looked for David

Miscavige's chart, but didn't find it. His birthdate is April 30, 1960.

I'm in Austin, TX where there is a large ashram, Barsana Dham, run by 82-year-old guru Prakashanand
Saraswati who is on the lam after skipping bail. He is charged with 20 counts of sexual indecency, and gained
leniency and bail claiming illness, but he immediately bolted for Mexico. He missed the court appearance andis currently running from the law.
Meanwhile, Barsana Dham is trying to distance itself from the guru and appoint a new leader Kripalau Maharaj,
who is older than Saraswati and who has been accused in the past, according to The Times of India of two
counts of kidnapping and three counts of rape. He has always been acquitted; he has never been convicted ofany of the charges.
I am trying to get birth data.
My first wife belonged to Ananda Marga, a Hindi cult. I have always believed in religious freedom, so it didn't
bother me before we were married, but soon after we were married, she started trying to dominate and control
rather compulsively. She tried to convert me to her religion. As I got to know her, I found she was as ruthlessand hateful as anyone I had ever met yet she was as pious as anyone I had ever met. "Namaste" gives me achill.
I don't think Billy Graham is in this league. You may dislike him; you may disagree with him; but he is not theleader of a sinister cult.
I believe Jim Jones is in this league.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #28 - on: 16.04.2011 at 16:44 [UT+1] »I think there are several possible contributors astrologcially. Ebertin said of CI that such people can seem
saint-like for it only to be revealed later that they were very different than their previous reputation (phonies
and frauds). Jim Jones had Grand Trine CASI, and Jim Bakker had T-square ECI.
Jones had AoE/I, but the most dangerous part was the populated T-square GOJ.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #29 - on: 16.04.2011 at 16:45 [UT+1] »Here is Jim Bakker.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #30 - on: 16.04.2011 at 16:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Virago on 16.04.2011 at 16:16 [UT+1]:
I grew up in Boulder Colorado, where there are so many alternative religions/lifestyles that many parents try to cult proof their kids before
the kids are out on their own. It's also a college town, so lots of young people on their own for the first time provide fodder for thesegroups. Just off the top of my head there is Scientology/Dyanetics/MindSpring, The Rashneej, E-Men, Urantia, Children of God (Moonies),
Hari Krishna...some of these have probably waned since I lived there, while new ones have sprung up.
I found L. Ron Hubbard's chart here, but I can't get it to link. He hadl A, i ASC and a grand trine in water. I looked for David

Miscavige's chart, but didn't find it. His birthdate is April 30, 1960.

Here is Hubbard's chart. He has Grand Trine CFI, which is likely for an author of fiction, but capable ofbamboozle. I'm not sure about Hubbard. If he believes his rap, then I don't think it is a dangerous cult, but I
have an open mind.
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Matrika Matters

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #31 - on: 16.04.2011 at 17:25 [UT+1] »Guru means teacher in Hindi doesn't it?
To westerners it has some sort of mystique 'cause they associate it with eastern religions.
Posts: 7405

Good teacher/bad teacher is what the title of this thread is.
Anyone who is put on a pedestal at some point will fall off it, cause it is all projection isn't it, when we idealize ateacher?

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ShawnC
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #32 - on: 16.04.2011 at 17:31 [UT+1] »thanks for posting these charts stephen. noticed that all 3 of these guys have contacts from moon to uranus.
what would ebertin say about that?

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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #33 - on: 16.04.2011 at 17:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Matrika on 16.04.2011 at 17:25 [UT+1]:
Guru means teacher in Hindi doesn't it?
To westerners it has some sort of mystique 'cause they associate it with eastern religions.
Good teacher/bad teacher is what the title of this thread is.
Anyone who is put on a pedestal at some point will fall off it, cause it is all projection isn't it, when we idealize a teacher?

Posts: 3624

we live life to remember that we forgot and then we die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbVlvkpT9Vc&feature=player_embedded#at=127

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #34 - on: 16.04.2011 at 17:49 [UT+1] »Quote from ShawnC on 16.04.2011 at 17:31 [UT+1]:
thanks for posting these charts stephen. noticed that all 3 of these guys have contacts from moon to uranus. what would ebertin say aboutthat?

I don't recall it all. There was obstanicy, narrow-mindedness, fanaticism, surprise, craving for sensation. I can't
remember the rest. Martin Seymour-Smith said among other things, vulnerable to the mysterious, sinister
libertarian.
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IP LoggedMs. Miranda

Member

Re: More Goo than roo...
« Reply #35 - on: 16.04.2011 at 18:29 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 16.04.2011 at 03:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ms. Miranda on 16.04.2011 at 02:56 [UT+1]:
James Arthur Ray... there's another one for the books...

i in overdrive, not unlike an over active 9th house; same N in

an air sign issue. This was an interesting blog I encountered looking up Ray:
http://outthecometsass.blogspot.com/2009/10/1957-problems.html, which is entitled "1957 problems".

Oh hey. I had forgotten about that blog. The author posts here occasionally; I knew her from a different forum. Very gifted and brightastrology enthusiast.
I do think there is probably an out-of-whack Jupiter or Sag or 9th house factor in any cult leader, as well as in anyone who might bedriven to follow such a person.
I really do have to thank the Goddess for my

Posts: 3684
Gender:iG and my j 9th house. It has probably kept me from throwing myself under the spiritualbus, so to speak, in following some random spiritual nut job that I might have met in my many years of living in Northern California (andI've met quite a few).

I think that my BOJD saved me in many ways. I can go deep into a study of something, but not necessarily
allow it to drag me into an inescapbale dark abyss thanks to my O. I'm not one to follow gurus, good or bad. I
watch carefully, AmFH8pG... especially since my OnO.
They all hub in La Jolla, too... some terrific, some benign, some twisted. I think that area is a vortex. You'll
find almost everyone in the New Age movement there, with the exception of Carolyn Myss and Eckhart Tolle...
I'm sure there are more, but those pop out at the moment.
Paramhansa Yogananda's Hermitage is in Encinitas (it's still there), interestingly enough. The Self-Realization
Fellowship. His meditation gardens on the cliffs overlooking "Swami Beach" where all the surfers congregate isprobably my favorite place to sit, overlooking the ocean, surrounded by the exquisite beauty. He was notexactly the mucking-through-the-slums kind of guru we associate with the likes of Mother Theresa or theaustere life of Ghandi. There is a little bit of childish-self indulgence in him. He died in the Biltmore Hotel, after
all...
Paramahansa had a sensitive 12th house e moon (not exactly my personal favorite moon or placement), an
active 8th house. HIs 10/4 axis sure shows his ability to attract all manner of celebrity himself and those who
followed him, even though he liked to teach students about the dangers of blind faith and what not.
Interesting... Perhaps, deep down, he was a cynic, or hidding the fact that he really didn't feel safe in theworld, and did what he could to maintain the lavish life he did. Or maybe he was unconsciously self-indulgent
and preoccupied with in "building a mystery'' as the song goes. JRxmIRxH10....Maybe he was just adept atbuilding the illusion of beauty, grace and perfection everywhere you look. Of course that is a matter ofperception. Maybe he was delusional entirely, but still came off like he had some Divinely inspired words forpeople. When people are experiencing a crap life, it's easy to suck them in with visions of butterflies migrating
through one's head in a state of nirvana meditation... I think that is what "The Secret" is all about.
When
your feeling "groovy" it's a challenge to tell people "Don't follow anyone with blind faith." That's like asking
someone to keep their feet on the ground after the balloon has already taken off.
Perhaps his G#FA square kept him on his toes? Uranus in the 3rd house certainly can work really hard at
trying to overtly change people's minds about what they think. Ripping the rug out from under people's
convention is certainly a part of this. And it can work in a loving manner or a trickster manner. I guess it would
all depend upon what kind of mood he was in, which I'm sure he never really knew. I'm sure that his
experiences were riddled with forward movement mixed with moments of feeling like someone yanked yourchain.
While he was followed like "guru" (despite the title of yogi), he spent much his life in search of a guru himself.
Interesting paradox. I think he was looking for a father/mother figure more than anything, to validate himself
and gain some self worth. There is little that people knew about the life of a yogi until he wrote about it. And
the irony is that his personal feelings about it were lacking. He seemed to value intuition over emotions. Or, atthe very least, the expression of them.
However you arrive at an answer about this man, I agree with Matrika...
Never put anyone on a pedestal. They will always fall... Or you will come to resent them so much you'll knock it
out from underneath them.
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #36 - on: 16.04.2011 at 19:19 [UT+1] »For me, the categories are rather vast, because I would include someone like Kiesha Crowther and David Ickes
in this mix; she has been promoting herself as a shaman, and of course, David Ickes is the explainer of theReptilians. Sigh.
But i am glad others know the meanings to these words, because I think there are possibly hundreds ofthousands of people raised without conscious awareness of what these words mean ('guru' having different
meanings, for example, already discussed above) who then rather blindly appropriate the behaviors of thereligion or belief without actually knowing what they are appropriating, or where the tradition comes from, or
what it means to the people who practice its traditions ritualistically in its culture of origin.
I was just watching a bit of Swedish TV, actually, of people who are resurrecting ancient fertility rites andworship of Thor, but for them, it is their country's history that they are resurrecting, not the culture or traditionof a country thousands of miles away.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #37 - on: 16.04.2011 at 19:26 [UT+1] »a film from 1955-Cult Of The Cobra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdgrYKzVIos&feature=player_embedded#at=2637

Posts: 3624
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #38 - on: 16.04.2011 at 19:38 [UT+1] »changling: Slender hangs illusion indeed.

Animism run amok!!

Okay, so this is funny (to me), since I grew up in "Asia." Where do you think the West imagines Asia to be? In
India? In China? In Morocco?? I mean, seriously, where is this "Asia" these GIs encounter? I never saw a snake
being anything but eaten in Hong Kong.
Also, I like how well the snake handler/charmer dude speaks English. That's awe-inspiring.
i have to pause now to roll my eyes at what happens when 'the west' comes up against 'the east.'
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #39 - on: 16.04.2011 at 19:57 [UT+1] »That is very interesting, real world, about that particular conjunction... and I hope that if you can, or would liketo, speak to the ways in which Kabbalah is used/misused as a spiritual guide toward wisdom, that you will
(because I certainly cannot, although I am interested in knowing more about Kabbalah, which i have 'studied,'but not very studiously, since it is arcane to the point of being inexplicable, in my opinion). There are thesestudies that seem to take a lifetime, and I only have one lifetime. I can't study everything... said this S K in the
3rd in a!! Focus, focus focus says the 8th house.
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #40 - on: 16.04.2011 at 20:23 [UT+1] »Interesting thread BTS. I think Yogananda's chart symbolizes his teachings very well. The the trine from the
Neptune-Pluto conjunction to Saturn must have been great for channeling some really esoteric information in apractical way. Sextile to Mars too.
The IJ conjunction of the late 1880s did produce some heavies in the esoteric world, including Dane

Posts: 2454

Rudhyar, MEJOnes and Yogananda, but also the infamous Adolf Hitler. I've noticed that it's the aspects to the
conjunction which seems to be the deciding factor in whether the owner is a goodie or baddie, as harsh
Neptune and Pluto aspects can mean delusion and control issues. I've also been looking at Chiron, as thisseems to give a strong esoteric interest, and charisma.
The founder of the school of kabalah, BOTA where I studied, Paul Foster Case has a recent entry at
astrodatabank, so I'm posting it here; the IJ conjunction is square F in his chart which correlates well withwhat I've always thought was a bit of over-emphasis on secrecy (Pluto) and a rather delusional pretense that hemet the so called "Master R", aka Compte de Saint Germain in a hotel in New York. The overemphasis on
psychic impressions is also mirrored in Moon in Pisces opposite Uranus and Mercury, and Mars opposite
Neptune.
Case's work as a teacher of esoteric principles would have been amazing enough without these factors, which
IMO mar the real spiritual principles represented by kabalah.

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MyriosEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #41 - on: 16.04.2011 at 20:37 [UT+1] »I'm surprised Deepak Chopra hasn't been mentioned yet. Good or bad (?) seems his halo has been tarnishedrecently.
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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #42 - on: 16.04.2011 at 20:46 [UT+1] »Chopra Father:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chopra%2C_Deepak
Chopra Son:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chopra%2C_Gotham

I had never heard of them (or any of the others...

).

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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #43 - on: 16.04.2011 at 20:50 [UT+1] »oh wow, that's interesting/weird timing, because I was just this second reading an excerpt from Deepak
Chopra's book that I kind of thought was appropriate for some sort of baseline understanding of thepsychological motivation behind how manipulator-gurus might operate (but I honestly don't know anything
about Deepak Chopra; this is one of the first things I've read of his...) I was told a long time ago by a bad-guru
type that I needed to find a guru (I wonder if he meant him?) to follow, but being the difficult person I am, I
never did, since i don't make a good or consistent follower; I keep getting distracted. If I were trying to be amountain climber, I'd be dead by now, since I would long ago have fallen off the beaten track by
exploring/plunging off the side of some ravine or other... Anyway:
The Book of Secrets, by Deepak Chopra (Three Rivers Press, 2004).
Unable to escape our toxic memories, people adapt to memories, adding one layer after another ofimpressions. The bottom layers, laid down in childhood, keep sending out their messages.
Stored memories are like microchips programmed to keep sending out the same message over and over. Whenyou find yourself having a fixed reaction, the message has already been sent: It does no good to try to change
the message. Yet this is exactly how the vast majority of people try to tame the mind. They receive a message
they don’t like, and their reaction is one of three things.
1. Manipulation.
2. Control.
3. Denial.
If you look at them closely, it becomes clear that all three of these behaviors come after the fact. They deal withthe mind’s disorder as the cause of the distress rather than as a symptom. These supposed solutions havetremendous negative effects.
Manipulation is getting what you want by ignoring or harming the desires of others. Manipulators use charm,
persuasion, coaxing, trickery and misdirection. The underlying idea is, “I have to fool people to make them giveme what I want.”
Control is forcing events and people into your way of doing things. Control is the great mask of insecurity.
People who use this behavior are deathly afraid of letting others be who they are, so the controller is constantly
making demands that keep others off balance. The underyling idea is, “If they keep paying attention to me,
they won’t run away.”
Denial is looking past the problem instead of facing it. Psychologists consider denial the most childish of thethree behaviors because it is so intimately linked to vulnerability. The person in denial feels helpless to solve
problems, the way a young child feels. Fear is linked to denial, and so is a childlike need for love in the face ofinsecurity. The underlying idea is, “I don’t have to notice what I can’t change in the first place.”
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vertex
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #44 - on: 16.04.2011 at 21:04 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 16.04.2011 at 19:19 [UT+1]:
For me, the categories are rather vast, because I would include someone like Kiesha Crowther and David Ickes in this mix; she has beenpromoting herself as a shaman, and of course, David Ickes is the explainer of the Reptilians. Sigh.
But i am glad others know the meanings to these words, because I think there are possibly hundreds of thousands ofPosts: 5576
Gender:people raised without conscious awareness of what these words mean ('guru' having different meanings,
for example, already discussed above) who then rather blindly appropriate the behaviors of the religion or
belief without actually knowing what they are appropriating, or where the tradition comes from,or what it means to the people who practice its traditions ritualistically in its culture of origin.
I was just watching a bit of Swedish TV, actually, of people who are resurrecting ancient fertility rites and worship of Thor, but for them, itis their country's history that they are resurrecting, not the culture or tradition of a country thousands of miles away.

Yup, there are thousands of Westerners who don't know about the ritualistic practices of people of the East (ofcourse, there can't be philosophies)
In the spirit of this and some other posts on this thread (including Changling's Cult of the Cobra link),
let us not forget: dinner scene of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIaHhSNHbNg
Yum, chilled monkey brains, eyeball soup, snake stuffed with live worms and roasted beetles have been ourholiday dinner favorites. *salivates*
human sacrifice scene of Indiana Jones and the Temple Doom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBIdcUxdgo0
A guru ain't a guru unless he literally rips your heart out and lowers you into a firey pit for Kali Ma.
(I actually really liked that movie! Never was offended by it. Mmm Harrison Ford.)
Anyway, I took Indian Classical Dance, and we called our dance teacher, our dance guru. Guru just means
teacher, who passes down knowledge. Working in the slums is not a requirement.
Since the Vedas were composed before written script was invented/created, Vedic knowledge was passed down
by oral tradition. Therefore, one needed a Guru to learn about them (ancient philosophies of the Vedas).
Question is: TODAY, depending on the subject, does one need a guru (teacher)? Personally, I never wanted areligious/spiritual guru, but always have valued University professors and what they can teach me.

Of course, there are frauds/cult leaders in every religious tradition; I particularly have a distaste for them.
However, no need to re-write the meaning (or change the connotation) of guru. I really hope for the legacy ofthe current Dalai Lama that he doesn't die at the hotel where he just finished giving a speech, because thatwould make him a bad guru.
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #45 - on: 16.04.2011 at 21:23 [UT+1] »Stephen, you said,"I don't think Billy Graham is in this league. You may dislike him; you may disagree with him; but he is not theleader of a sinister cult."
Posts: 17033

In case you were referring my my post, I, in turn, was responding to someone else who mentioned Billy
Graham.
I don't dislike Billy Graham. My reference was to him as a first class proselytizer, and that word is notnecessarily a negative one.
He's an Evangelist....and if you like that sort of thing, his sermons were certainly something that would wow
you.
This is why in the beginning of this thread, which began as a good idea, I suggested 'defining' GURU.
The head of a cult, for me, is totally anti-Christ. Any human being who puts himself into the position ofclaiming direct communication with the divine, and is directed to deliver this message to others, is, again - toME - fraudulent - Power corrupts and the heads of cults all have the desire for power over other humanbeings. And then cannot help but be corrupted.
Here and there, now and again, there have been truly saintly people who have 'connected' with "God", but I
wouldn't BET on who the authentic ones were.....and who were delusional.
Neptune runs rampant. We have no power over him...except to be scrupulously honest - with ourselves,especially. Then we can't be "hoodwinked."
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Evolving
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #46 - on: 16.04.2011 at 21:30 [UT+1] »Great thread!
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 16.04.2011 at 16:37 [UT+1]:
My first wife belonged to Ananda Marga, a Hindi cult. I have always believed in religious freedom, so it didn't bother me before we were
married, but soon after we were married, she started trying to dominate and control rather compulsively. She tried to convert me to her
religion. As I got to know her, I found she was as ruthless and hateful as anyone I had ever met yet she was as pious as anyone I had
ever met. "Namaste" gives me a chill.

Posts: 400

I hear you Stephen, having a similar experience. Seeing the other side of someone and not walk the talk canbe quite shocking! Um, loosing my sanity comes to mind!
My word would be 'viper.' Gave me THE
adventure of a lifetime AND will keep in my pocket for future reference. "Namaste" gives me a chill
I'llremember you now when I hear it, if ever.
In my curiousity (f Ac?) I have 'attended' various circles for a flavored knowledge what's 'out there.'
Determining in my senses, THESE encounters [of the 3rd kindthese functions. This duck's ass likes to waddle] are not for me. I feel repressed going to

I understand cultures needing structure and containment, to provide a common foundation and view. As almF and growing up, never could understand religion, structured.
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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #47 - on: 16.04.2011 at 21:33 [UT+1] »There must be a site that has the astro charts for all the usual suspects on the list? no?
andrew cohen
byron katie
eckhart tolle (he's very mainstream popular!)ramanabarry longadyashanti
the course in miracle lot must have been ruled/started by someone?
bernie prior
sai baba
gangajipapajikrishnamurti - both of 'em......
mooji
unmanietc etc....the list is endless.....whether good or bad is for each to judge.....there are gzillions of em out there ! I
have heard stories good and bad for most of them....the 'guruphiliac' site is a good place to look if you havent
found it already......
Here is a blog/book that may help your reseacrh BTS:
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/
Did you see 'the guru papers' book? or read the book that andrew cohen's mother wrote when she got free of
his cult?
Personally I got a lot from meeting Byron Katie, I think her work amounts to enlightened therapy, its the top
banana as far as Im concerned if you have problems and want deep surgery to free yourself.... and so much of
it is $ZERO on the web..... it was transformational. After Katie you have to concede suffering is optional, evenfor a miserable old Saturn type like me. Yes I saw all the signs of devotee/guru adulation going on in the
background and yes she is one formidable/controlling mama but hec if she is giving such an extraordinary tool
to the world to help release us from our prisons and problems I think I can allow her some power issues.....aslong as I dont get embroiled in them.....she is radical, I like that.....(Sag of course!)....
One thing I noticed is that sometimes some people just do have to dive in real deep, get thoroughly
burned/soaked/screwed up to get to a point where healing or a radical yet undramatic shift can take place (andsometimes not of course)....its a moth to the flame thing I spoze??......but if liberation is meant to happen on
the 8892nd step you take in life then I would be willing to believe thats exactly when it will, whether u stand on
your head waiting or whether u lie on the floor massaging some guru's smelly feet.....
I dont know what to say about the Koolaid crowd. That is very very sad. I knew someone who got out of that
alive. I mean HOW COULD intelligent people agree to that? And thats the thing, a LOT of people who getcaught in the guru trip are way intelligent......but wounded.....the wounds demand healing and also usually give
the kind of insight that knows ordinary therapy isnt it....complex..... Yeah it doesnt make sense to me exactly
how come an initially good-intentioned person can go so dark but it seems like it often starts out with an
innocence and then gradually gets more and more twisted as a crowd of control freaks take over and the guru
just allows that........presumably because they are so lofty that earthly matters are not of any concern......
Oh well, I have seen the typical guru brainwashing that goes on up real close and ugly and its a trip, thats forsure.....
But it is only a more extreme version of the brainwashing of the world at large.....wherever you are, whatever
you do, you serve something......right?

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #48 - on: 16.04.2011 at 21:41 [UT+1] »Yeah, but Crocus, these people who are in too deep... are cutting off their body parts!! ARGH Insanity!! All tofollow some Jim Jones type down his personal well into Hell.
I think all of this spiritual guru-questioning got started when I began watching Big Love, which I found deeply
upsetting (realising, of course, that it's only fiction; okay, fine, but people portrayed in it start out innocent andbecome corrupted, sometimes willingly, sometimes against their will, and the loss of innocence is a big trigger
for me).
....deeply upsetting!! A Bambi's mother got shot in the forest moment. Traumatic.
I think your point about woundedness is a very good one... and/but there are wounded people who find a route
toward the light and away from someone else's darkness. This, to me, is about survival, but these people aren't
interested in surviving; it's as though the something that's been taken away from them has brought them tothe brink and they make the decision to fall in to the pits of darkness rather than live with their pain. Who
knows; maybe their guru is their distraction away from their pain.
Misdirection from the light.
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Ms. Miranda

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #49 - on: 16.04.2011 at 22:08 [UT+1] »OH... I've got a bone to pick with western "gurus", especially those in the US in the last 50 years. So FEW arereally in a solid understanding about the sacred and spirituality.
And I'll just say, Gangaji puts me to sleep like Eckardt Tolle... Like Wayne Dyer.... like.... oh there are so many
that think you have to talk in a calm lilting voice to perform as a guru. That annoys me. I like Chopra. At least
he doesn't feel the need to capture my attention by whispering to me like some bad Coty commercial.
I'm spotting that the Baby Boomers produced a lot of New Age western "gurus". And what I find sointeresting is that the baby boomers of the US, most of them Je, couldn't have had a cushier life in terms of
all the people who lived through the 20th century. All that help that they are shucking is odd, when you look at

Posts: 3684
Gender:it... I guess when you get what you want, when you want, and all you have to do is think positively
is lookslike it comes to you like magic! Ask a Jf person how helpful a Boomer self-help book was long-term and I'msure they will be happy to answer you by launching a copy of "A Return to Love" at your head.
There are a lot of gurus who never had children as well (lots of eBs and 5th house moons), which begs thequestion: Just how deep can your spirituality actually be if you've never learned to balance family, marriage andspirituality? How compassionate or empathetic can you actually be if you haven't been tested by all thechallenges that face the very people that seek your counsel. I think this is one of the reasons I seek to learn
from teachers who have lived lives out in the real world. People who have figured out that the majority ofhumanity is balancing many aspects of life and firing on all cylinders, not just one or two. I want my guru to beable to multi-task, dammit.
I think we want gurus who have made mistakes, fallen, gotten back up, andcan lead by example about how to navigate the deeper challenges of real life. Survival.
There are a lot of gurus who live a cushy life. So few are remarkable in their gifts for empathy. Just because
someone is listening to you doesn't mean that they care or are even hearing you. Personally, I'm not that big ofa fan of the Dalai Lama. I don't believe that any person should be elevated above another and least of all becalled a living "god". I think that his chart is a combination of well intention and a bloated ego. (AJH1)
Then there is the Oprah-Tolle overzealous Aquarius demi-god implosion of A New Earth webcast, on TV, andinescapable to anyone who possesses bandwidth in their lives. I think that was the beginning of the end for her.
No one told all these k and O types that are floating in the new age pool that I was eventually going toenter into l. Oops.
I think that the world is coming to a natural close to the larger than life guru and we're going to enter a phaseof quieter, more personalized contemplation. Spirituality has lost its sanctity in the last 100 years, or at least
since it appeared on TV. I dont' know who thought the age of Aquarius was all that wonderful of a thing towelcome. Quite frankly I think that we already had it... Televangelism and tons of Air Sign/11th house driven
self help that discounts the needs of the individual. We've had our fill of textbook remedies that sell like apanacea. I think that the new New Age is going to be better. I think it will allow for intuitive guidance andindividualized care and attention to each person's growth and needs. That isnt' anything that we've had in along time.
And thus... Jj will bust up yet another institution... the New Age regime. And in its stead will be a movement
towards inner guidance, something that not so logical-linear, and contextual, conceptual, and intuitive.

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MarleEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #50 - on: 16.04.2011 at 22:16 [UT+1] »Finally a name in the thread that I know: Wayne Dyer.
I like his books.

I went to check and his chart is not in the astrobank. I liked the ideas of his books (read 2), but liked more (Ithink it was more the kind of book I needed to read) one by David Viscot (The language of feelings).
There are ideas that can help us, especially if we hear/read them at the right moment.

Viscott's chart is in the astrobank: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Viscott%2C_David
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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #51 - on: 16.04.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1] »Byron Katie really is as bad as it gets: This woman actually asks money from her instructors instead of
paying them for their labour of teaching new recruits her brainwash techniques … She tops them all IMHO.
Here is a link to the Rick Ross forum where they are slicing her up to pieces based on tracking down her
background as well as the background of the techniques she is using. It is a truly long thread but definitely
worth reading: Truly enlightening. For those who don’t want to do that: At the first two pages a person
named Vlinden shows up who does what I call an “Occam's Razor ” job if it comes to common sense. Very
impressive forum with loads of good, solid psychological information.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906
Here is Byron Katie’s Chart on Astrotheme: Do notice the T-square she has on the Moon/Mars conjunction,
opposite Uranus, square her Chiron/North Node conjunction; for more insights into her motherly skills. As wellas the Sun/Venus conjunction; Charles Manson also had and gives a lot of charm. (No birth time BTW)
http://www.astrotheme.com/celestar/portrait.php?clef=9b8E92U4VH6x&info=1
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alice bEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #52 - on: 16.04.2011 at 22:36 [UT+1] »Another of their characteristics, Jim Jones, Kersch of Waco, the Mormom guy of the ultra fundamentalist groupof the Mormons, is that their sexuality becomes perverted or highly promiscious. I would generally besuspicious of anyone claiming to have "secret" information of God, have a "special" relationship with God, andpit the outside against the cult, and attempt to isolate their followers from friends and family in general. Thereis also a lot of monetary manipulation going on which benefits the cult leader.
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Marle

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #53 - on: 16.04.2011 at 22:48 [UT+1] »Yes. I think the clear difference with BAD gurus is that they will push you to DO something. And it seems there
are too many people willing to follow.

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #54 - on: 16.04.2011 at 22:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 16.04.2011 at 22:08 [UT+1]:
OH... I've got a bone to pick with western "gurus", especially those in the US in the last 50 years. So FEW are really in a solid
understanding about the sacred and spirituality.
And I'll just say, Gangaji puts me to sleep like Eckardt Tolle... Like Wayne Dyer.... like.... oh there are so many that think you have totalk in a calm lilting voice to perform as a guru. That annoys me. I like Chopra. At least he doesn't feel the need to capture my attention
by whispering to me like some bad Coty commercial.
I'm spotting that the Baby Boomers produced a lot of New Age western "gurus". And what I find so interesting is that the baby boomersof the US, most of themJe, couldn't have had a cushier life in terms of all the people who lived through the 20th century. All that helpthat they are shucking is odd, when you look at it... I guess when you get what you want, when you want, and all you have to do is thinkpositively

is looks like it comes to you like magic! Ask a

Jf person how helpful a boomer self help book was long term and I'm surethey will be happy to answer you by launching a copy of "Return to Love" at your head.
There are a lot of gurus who never had children as well (lots ofeBs and 5th house moons), which begs the question: Just how deep canyour spirituality actually be if you've never learned to balance family, marriage and spirituality? How compassionate or empathetic can
you actually be if you haven't been tested by all the challenges that face the very people that seek your counsel. I think this is one of thereasons I seek to learn from teachers who have lived lives out in the real world. People who have figured out that the majority ofhumanity is balancing many aspects of life and firing on all cylinders, not just one or two. I want my guru to be able to multi-task,
dammit.

I think we want gurus who have made mistakes, fallen, gotten back up and can lead by example about how to navigate thedeeper challenges of real life. Survival.
There are a lot of gurus who live a cushy life. So few are remarkable in their gifts for empathy. Just because someone is listening to you
doesn't mean that they care or are even hearing you. Personally, I'm not that big of a fan of the Dalai Lama. I don't believe that any
person should be elevated above another and least of all be called a living "god". I think that his chart is a combination of well intention
and a bloated ego. (AJH1)

Then there is the Oprah-Tolle overzealous Aquarius demi-god implosion of A New Earth webcast, on TV and inescapable to anyone who
possesses badwidth in their lives. I think that was the beginning of the end for her. No one told all thesein the new age pool thatk and O types that are floating

I was eventually enter into I. Oops.

I think that the world is coming to a natural close to the larger than life guru and we're going to enter a phase of quieter, more
personalized contemplation. Spirituality has lost its sanctity in the last 100 years, or at least since it appeared on TV. I dont' know who
thought the age of Aquarius was all that wonderful of a thing to welcome. Quite frankly I think that we already had it... Televangelism andtons of Air Sign/11th house driven self help that discounts the needs of the individual. We've had our fill of textbook remedies that selllike a panacea. I think that the new New Age is going to be better. I think it will allow for intuitive guidance and individualized care andattention to each person's growth and needs. That isnt' anything that we've had in a long time.
And thus...

Jj will bust up yet another institution... the New Age regime. And in its stead will be a movement towards inner guidance,something that not so logical-linear, and contextual, conceptual, and intuitive.

god, I hope so. I have a lot of built-up resentment (ooh, my issues!) about the Je and Jd generations
preaching from the pulpit about how you're supposed to live your life. You know how everyone keeps saying"walk a mile in my shoes," or worse, "my moccasins"?? I always find that response laughable, because theunderlying premise seems (to me) so very d/e, so self-absorbed, so convinced that only they have everexperienced this pain, forgetting that everyone experiences pain. Pain is pain. You can't quantify it: oh, MY pain
is so unique that you could never possibly understand it.
I'm like, babe, that's what empathy is for, so humans could empathize with each other's pain. Jeez. Get off yourself-absorbed only I get it soapbox. We're all in the same boat. Of course, I do have Nk, so maybe thatcombination sees group pain differently.... I don't know. All I know is, I'm so tired of having to listen to them.
Time to get off this rock.
One thing I don't agree with, though; I don't think the New Age (bleh) is going to be better. I do think it will be
conveyed in a foreign language, however, and we'll all be forced to adapt. I don't make a very good millenarian,
I'm afraid, since I am looking forward to 2013. I'd like to skip 2012 altogether, if only because of TV, which I
predict will become filled with 'end of the world' messages. Fortunately, Oprah has gotten off her couch, so we
don't have to listen to her anymore. Thank you god.
Oprah-guru.
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Marle

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #55 - on: 16.04.2011 at 23:03 [UT+1] »In my case, beyond the stars, I see that different. The d and e J here were children or born in a Civil War, sothey at least knew what losing some family and poverty in war and after war is.
Nowadays we complain for more stupid things. Oh, there is a crisis now...
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Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #56 - on: 16.04.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Marle on 16.04.2011 at 23:03 [UT+1]:

d and e J here were children or born in a Civil War, so they at least knew what

In my case, beyond the stars, I see that different. The
losing some family and poverty in war and after war is.

Nowadays we complain for more stupid things. Oh, there is a crisis now...

What part of the world do you live in, Marle?

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Pistacia

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #57 - on: 16.04.2011 at 23:13 [UT+1] »J seems to be Angular on many of these charts posted along few other planets. It doesn't explain all of it ofcourse, but it's interesting because Pluto is often connected with magnetism and the masses among others.
Also obsessiveness..

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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #58 - on: 16.04.2011 at 23:16 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 16.04.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from Marle on 16.04.2011 at 23:03 [UT+1]:
In my case, beyond the stars, I see that different. The

d and e J here were children or born in a Civil War, so they atleast knew what losing some family and poverty in war and after war is.
Nowadays we complain for more stupid things. Oh, there is a crisis now...

What part of the world do you live in, Marle?

Spain. We had a Civil war here from 1936 to 1939.
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #59 - on: 17.04.2011 at 00:31 [UT+1] »Hitler had Jc, so the Jd generation inherited that war from the previous generation, just like we all inherit
our battles from previous generations. The leaders we follow are almost always of a previous generation, hence
my distaste for previous generations right now. Just wait; eventually I'll be really old, and then I'll rail against
the younger generations.
And Jf, my generation, is pretty warped too. None of us get to live in glass
houses....
Not for very long, anyway....
I want a guru who isn't self-serving and is here to do good, not be selling some product. I want the
mythologized Jesus, the one in the stories, who carried lambs and was good and had a halo.
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Geoffrey Hillend
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #60 - on: 17.04.2011 at 03:22 [UT+1] »Good Guru's have some spiritual knowledge and values. Bad ones only have promises or worse they arepathologically ego-inflated or selfish. They represent powerful figures for those who want to be lead.
Horoscope placements can only indicate both potential positive or negative proclivities; the level ofconsciousness and knowledge of the individual is what determines their actions.
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Geoffrey Hillend

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #61 - on: 17.04.2011 at 03:42 [UT+1] »Bad Guru's don't always lead their flock astray; sometimes it's like attracts like; They all have the same values
and beliefs which the whole group is united in unconsciousness like the Heavens Gate Cult for example; You
might find similar challenging aspects and placements in all of their charts.
Posts: 2200

I've read about the Charisma of the Guru: it does play a part sometimes but only a part. There is often an
unconscious over-dependency of the followers on the leader who has a power complex. As a result, the guru is
believed to never be wrong or to have the keys to paradise or happiness by the followers, so he can do nowrong; He has to have absolute power and must be obeyed.

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Evolving
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #62 - on: 17.04.2011 at 03:48 [UT+1] »When one follows another, you loose your way.
You are your own best guide in this journey.

kD

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Geoffrey Hillend

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #63 - on: 17.04.2011 at 03:51 [UT+1] »Exactly. The too much of the God archetype is projected onto the bad Guru who leads the flock astray.

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MoiraeMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #64 - on: 17.04.2011 at 04:40 [UT+1] »Quote from dailynews on 16.04.2011 at 02:07 [UT+1]:
I think its a good theme(good-bad guru) with some great suggestions.

I dont believe CM had such a wide influence beyond his family . The awful killings and the major
media "of the times" of anti establishment / easy rider times were pretty sensational.
I think of the term guru in a kind of traditional/spirtual teacher sense yet realize some folks might call them selves a guru when theymight just fall into being a workshop leader.

Posts: 2570
Gender:Late getting into this thread, so apologies for any re-iteration. I don't "do" gurus, and Manson was my lesson
for that. Unfortunately for my parents and priests, I didn't "do" them anymore, either when that long season
was done.
Manson had an eviscerating and broad influence "beyond his family". Some of them are just being released
from prison, or dying there, now. This event was a totemic symbolic event for me, because the murders werethe most shocking news of my child-hood.
Not to mention that my Dad was trying to drive our family up through New York state during Woodstock for his
brother's wedding in Canada ... THAT was an interesting trip for an 8 year old in the old-blue-dodge ... then the
Sharon Tate murder hit the papers that Sunday morning. Between the two events, I think I was pretty muchstun gunned for the following year. The Manson murders and Woodstock and that wedding all together at thesame time put my psyche on "pause" while I contemplated the modern world, from a 8-9 year-old perspective.
When I woke up on the other side (sometime prior to age 10), I understood that human nature does notnecessarily follow the rules.
Then I started studying "the rules", and why people break them (Uranus) and why some lie about it, andsmooth it over (Venus= Taurus & Libra). Then I found an astrology book.
So, hate to waste this cyber space, but Charles Manson is the catalyst who led me on my path to my maddly
understanding of human nature because Hitler had been enough in the first place, and Manson was NOT icing
on the cake.
Therein, I discovered my own Uranus for the first time. This was the season that I discovered the prevailingpresence of evil in human culture. It was the season that I learned never to trust any Gurus.
My Uranian.

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Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #65 - on: 17.04.2011 at 04:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Geoffrey Hillend on 17.04.2011 at 03:51 [UT+1]:
Exactly. The too much of the God archetype is projected onto the bad Guru who leads the flock astray.

Now that's a bit off... As with all archetypes, the "God" has a light and a shadow. The light side of the God
archetype represents benevolence and compassion, and sees the eternal life force and potential in self andothers equally. There is no hierarchy when it is worked from the light side. When the God is being worked fromthe shadow a person uses power to control people in an autocratic manner and uses cruelty. And cruelty can beever so subtle, like making people think they are less than the guru, or somehow inferior. I have encounteredonly one teacher, in all my years of spiritual study, that sat with his students in a circle as he taught us... Not
standing, not at a podium, but in a chair, or at the table we all sat at, humble and conscious to make sure that
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Gender:all contributed as their conscience dictated. He respected all questions, and respected when he was being
questioned. I've never encountered a man like this who wouldn't dream of dismissing a students questions, like
I've encountered with many famous teachers who so many claim to be so high level and enlightened. That, inmy opinion, is the God archetype in its light. Expressing humbleness but not self deprecation. It's rare when
you encounter it, and when you do, you want to be a better person in their company, to rise to that vibration
and be a party to holding the light side of it and sustaining it for as long as possible. And it's not easy to holdthat level either. Many even enlightened masters try, but eventually it wears them out and they can get"human" all too quickly.

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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #66 - on: 17.04.2011 at 07:03 [UT+1] »There are ideas that can help us, especially if we hear/read them at the right moment.

Exactly Marle.....well said.....
BTS - that Bambi moment, wow, that was a moment when the world swung to a halt hey? I never heard
anyone else ever refer to it, that moment deep in my little 5yo psyche with my Mum next to me in the Cinema
and my eyes as big as saucers.....
I havent seen Big Love, I will look out for it altho if it is upsetting, mebbe not......I havent known gurus whomake people cut off their limbs (I mean personally)....yes I find Gangaji and Unmani types nauseating andboring and no doubt they make a fair bit of dosh out of what they do but I dont think they are psychos like thenames you mentioned earlier......
I noticed Katie is the latest target for a load of critical attention and as I said she does appear to be pretty
controlling so I am not surprised there is a backlash.....but still her Work is popular and liberating for many so I
wouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater myself.....
so are there any 'perceived' good gurus out there?
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Geoffrey Hillend

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #67 - on: 17.04.2011 at 07:06 [UT+1] »I meant the positive aspect is projected onto the bad guru by the flock; They don't see the bad in the bad guru
until later or too late.

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IP LoggedTaylor Selseth
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #68 - on: 17.04.2011 at 07:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 16.04.2011 at 22:08 [UT+1]:
OH... I've got a bone to pick with western "gurus", especially those in the US in the last 50 years. So FEW are really in a solid
understanding about the sacred and spirituality.
And I'll just say, Gangaji puts me to sleep like Eckardt Tolle... Like Wayne Dyer.... like.... oh there are so many that think you have to

Posts: 222
Gender:talk in a calm lilting voice to perform as a guru. That annoys me. I like Chopra. At least he doesn't feel the need to capture my attention
by whispering to me like some bad Coty commercial.
I'm spotting that the Baby Boomers produced a lot of New Age western "gurus". And what I find so interesting is that the baby boomersof the US, most of themJe, couldn't have had a cushier life in terms of all the people who lived through the 20th century. All that helpthat they are shucking is odd, when you look at it... I guess when you get what you want, when you want, and all you have to do is thinkpositively

is looks like it comes to you like magic! Ask a

Jf person how helpful a Boomer self-help book was long-term and I'msure they will be happy to answer you by launching a copy of "A Return to Love" at your head.
There are a lot of gurus who never had children as well (lots ofeBs and 5th house moons), which begs the question: Just how deep canyour spirituality actually be if you've never learned to balance family, marriage and spirituality? How compassionate or empathetic can
you actually be if you haven't been tested by all the challenges that face the very people that seek your counsel. I think this is one of thereasons I seek to learn from teachers who have lived lives out in the real world. People who have figured out that the majority ofhumanity is balancing many aspects of life and firing on all cylinders, not just one or two. I want my guru to be able to multi-task,
dammit.

I think we want gurus who have made mistakes, fallen, gotten back up, and can lead by example about how to navigate thedeeper challenges of real life. Survival.
There are a lot of gurus who live a cushy life. So few are remarkable in their gifts for empathy. Just because someone is listening to you
doesn't mean that they care or are even hearing you. Personally, I'm not that big of a fan of the Dalai Lama. I don't believe that any
person should be elevated above another and least of all be called a living "god". I think that his chart is a combination of well intention
and a bloated ego. (AJH1)

Then there is the Oprah-Tolle overzealous Aquarius demi-god implosion of A New Earth webcast, on TV, and inescapable to anyone who
possesses bandwidth in their lives. I think that was the beginning of the end for her. No one told all thesein the new age pool thatk and O types that are floating

I was eventually going to enter into l. Oops.

I think that the world is coming to a natural close to the larger than life guru and we're going to enter a phase of quieter, more
personalized contemplation. Spirituality has lost its sanctity in the last 100 years, or at least since it appeared on TV. I dont' know who
thought the age of Aquarius was all that wonderful of a thing to welcome. Quite frankly I think that we already had it... Televangelism andtons of Air Sign/11th house driven self help that discounts the needs of the individual. We've had our fill of textbook remedies that selllike a panacea. I think that the new New Age is going to be better. I think it will allow for intuitive guidance and individualized care andattention to each person's growth and needs. That isnt' anything that we've had in a long time.
And thus...

Jj will bust up yet another institution... the New Age regime. And in its stead will be a movement towards inner guidance,something that not so logical-linear, and contextual, conceptual, and intuitive.

I must disagree with you on Chopra, his whole "quantum healing" BS screams "HUCKSTER". Then there are allthese kooky New Age "light-workers" who are obsessed with positive thinking and treat "negativism" as if itwere the Plague.
And as a Neo-Pagan I get really annoyed by these Boomer Je "Neo-Wicca" idiots like Silver RavenWolf and DJ
Conway that makes the rest of us look like dumb fluffballs.
Eckhardt Tolle is the classic twisted guru that gets an over-inflated ego.
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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #69 - on: 17.04.2011 at 11:01 [UT+1] »Quote from crocus on 17.04.2011 at 07:03 [UT+1]:
There are ideas that can help us, especially if we hear/read them at the right moment.
Exactly Marle.....well said.....
BTS - that Bambi moment, wow, that was a moment when the world swung to a halt hey? I never heard anyone else ever refer to it, thatmoment deep in my little 5yo psyche with my Mum next to me in the Cinema and my eyes as big as saucers.....
I havent seen Big Love, I will look out for it altho if it is upsetting, mebbe not......I havent known gurus who make people cut off theirlimbs (I mean personally)....yes I find Gangaji and Unmani types nauseating and boring and no doubt they make a fair bit of dosh out ofwhat they do but I dont think they are psychos like the names you mentioned earlier......
I noticed Katie is the latest target for a load of critical attention and as I said she does appear to be pretty controlling so I am
not surprised there is a backlash.....but still her Work is popular and liberating for many so I wouldnt throw the baby out withthe bathwater myself.....
so are there any 'perceived' good gurus out there?

We all actually can leave “ throwing the baby out with the bathwater” up to Byron Katie and The Work. (Godbless her...
) Which is exactly what I have and always had against following any guru.
Read this post written by a person named The Anticult on the Rick Ross forum; page 17, second post from thetop:
Quote "Warning: This content is about sexual abuse and The Work…." Unquote
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,page=17
You can see Byron Katies “Work” in action by pressing the link and please do make up your own mind about it.
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IP LoggedPistacia
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #70 - on: 17.04.2011 at 14:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Evolving on 17.04.2011 at 03:48 [UT+1]:
When one follows another, you loose your way.

You are your own best guide in this journey.

kD
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Gender:aD 9th - I agree

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ViragoMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #71 - on: 17.04.2011 at 15:32 [UT+1] »Thanks, Stephen Baxter, for posting L. Ron's chart. At some point he did declare he was going to becomerich by making up a religion based on Sci-Fi, so he didn't actually believe the stuff he wrote.

Posts: 345

I think Kabbalah can be a legit path for spiritual exploration, but I think the branch with all the high profilecelebs is a cult. And I'm surprised that Madonna was hoodwinked by them, and has given millions to thisgroup. Say what you like about her, I thought she was a smart business woman.
On another site I go to, people have said they would like to see a showdown between the Scientology Celebs
and the Kabbalah Celebs. Sort of like the Sharks and the Jets. The Kabbalah bunch could throw theirexpensive bottled water at the Scientologists. I'm not sure what the Scientologists could do.
The channel Michael says that one of the experiences that every soul must go through on the path back to the
Tao is that of honorably serving a dishonorable leader. If true, I think that might be what a lot of the followersof these guys are doing.

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #72 - on: 17.04.2011 at 16:34 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 16.04.2011 at 20:50 [UT+1]:
oh wow, that's interesting/weird timing, because I was just this second reading an excerpt from Deepak Chopra's book that I kind ofthought was appropriate for some sort of baseline understanding of the psychological motivation behind how manipulator-gurus might
operate ...

I didn't find anything objectionable in that passage. Seemed like a reasonable description of symptoms we all
share to some extent. I guess whether there's a problem depends on what he suggests to deal with it.
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IP LoggedMs. Miranda

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #73 - on: 17.04.2011 at 17:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Taylor Selseth on 17.04.2011 at 07:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ms. Miranda on 16.04.2011 at 22:08 [UT+1]:
OH... I've got a bone to pick with western "gurus", especially those in the US in the last 50 years. So FEW are really in asolid understanding about the sacred and spirituality.
And I'll just say, Gangaji puts me to sleep like Eckardt Tolle... Like Wayne Dyer.... like.... oh there are so many that think
you have to talk in a calm lilting voice to perform as a guru. That annoys me. I like Chopra. At least he doesn't feel theneed to capture my attention by whispering to me like some bad Coty commercial.
I must disagree with you on Chopra, his whole "quantum healing" BS screams "HUCKSTER". Then there are all these kooky New Age"light-workers" who are obsessed with positive thinking and treat "negativism" as if it were the Plague.

Posts: 3684
Gender:I said I like Chopra... I didn't say I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I don't buy into doshas, personally. Never have. It
sounds too much like "humors". When you read up on how your "biography is your biology", it pretty muchthrows it out the window. The complexities of individualized care are frequently counter-intuitive to the type of
medicine that Chopra practices as a complete healing modality. If you take the world of averages, it may holdup, but when you start breaking down the symptoms of a person, you quickly realize it is not the end. It is anholistic approach, yet it's not whole. It negates the value of personal inventory. And what it is meant to do is
get you to a step. My take on him material is not that he has it all figured out. He's got some basics. And thisis why... Quantum mechanics gets over simplified and translated to the masses as making a Christmas list by
way of a vision board cum Field of Dreams... "If you build it they will come."
What the vast majority of The Secret and other QM pushers never address is that the unconscious mind will
usurp any conscious desires if there is a counter energetic belief buried. So, QM can only go so far. He,
Ford and Williamson came a little closer to getting up to speed with their recent publication called "The Shadow
Effect" however it still falls incredibly short. You have to do deep inventory to understand your trauma blocks.
Then maybe you can entertain the validity of QM. Before you do that, it's all going to look like a bad science
fair project. Maybe all the people that it "worked for" got lucky, maybe it was in their chart, maybe they aresociopaths who to deeply believe their delusions that they can manifest them and "shuck" them as "realized
dreams". I don't know...
That being said, Chopra's work, if you've read any breadth of it, does cover a lot of material, body, mind andspirit. Though, not to any great depth. I considered a stepping stone to other material. I didn't stop with hiswork. It felt like an invitation to keep digging deeper. Course that's my experience. At the time, I was on a
mission to discover alternative healing modalities for my son. I found his work to be just that for me. Not theend, but a step in my journey. I found subsequent more intricate material much easier to digest as a result of
having read his work. He was an amuse bouche, if you will. And maybe that is why we're not satisfied with thestate of our current gurus? Maybe we've all collectively graduated and elevated our consciousness and that are
rendered useless?
Ah... the irony is not lost on me there. Maybe the Baby New Age Boomers completed their mission of elevating
consciousness, only the consciousness is NOT of the paradigm that they envisioned on the vision boards.
Hmmm.... interesting. Maybe they didn't go deep enough in their own inventory to understand the unconscious
motivations that derailed all their best efforts and pushed spirituality into a direction no one could haveforeseen?
It's up to each student to make sure that they are not externalizing their power to another. A student must
learn to respect their teacher/guru enough to ask questions and question them. If the teacher-guru gets
offended, I saw run for the door. They do not have your interests at heart. It's not that complicated. Many
people unconsciously present themselves like a lamb to slaughter yet believe they're being taken out for dinnerand drinks.

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MyriosEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #74 - on: 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Taylor Selseth on 17.04.2011 at 07:31 [UT+1]:
I must disagree with you on Chopra, his whole "quantum healing" BS screams "HUCKSTER". Then there are all these kooky New Age"light-workers" who are obsessed with positive thinking and treat "negativism" as if it were the Plague .
And as a Neo-Pagan I get really annoyed by these Boomer

Je "Neo-Wicca" idiots like Silver RavenWolf and DJ Conway that makes therest of us look like dumb fluffballs.
Eckhardt Tolle is the classic twisted guru that gets an over-inflated ego.

Oh HALLELUYAH I am so with you ALLL the way on this one ... the 'Only Positive' Crowd and the ... "Ban
Negativism" Banner is my pet peeve ... its yet another TOOL for NA manipulators ... my daughter used this one
on me out of the blue one day (from her NewAge Hypnotist who is sucking my daughter's Retirement Savingsout of her bank account) just as I was plugging the coffee pot into the receptacle - so I said - see that? Positive & Negative Electrical Currents - they work together - so how can you have one without the other ??
She was dumbfounded. But of course, that too, I'm sure, would ultimately be construed as 'a negative
remark' ...

How about RAM DASS as a Guru. Be Here NOW. Good or Bad ???
I'm all for living in the moment at my age - MUCh older than BTS btw
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #75 - on: 17.04.2011 at 18:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1]:
How about RAM DASS as a Guru. Be Here NOW. Good or Bad ???

I was flabbergasted when I came across a copy of that artsy book by Ram Dass/Richard Alpert, which was all

Posts: 2454

the rage in the 1960s in Barnes and Noble recently. I had forgotten how much LSD and marijuana was reallyresponsible for any feelings of Being Here Now while tripping out in the middle of London traffic after having
just flown in from Amsterdam while doing Europe on $5 a day.
I'm hiding it from my kids for as long as possible.

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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #76 - on: 17.04.2011 at 18:46 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 17.04.2011 at 18:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myrios on 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1]:
How about RAM DASS as a Guru. Be Here NOW. Good or Bad ???

I was flabbergasted when I came across a copy of that artsy book by Ram Dass/Richard Alpert, which was all the rage in the 1960s in
Barnes and Noble recently. I had forgotten how much LSD and marijuana was really responsible for any feelings of Being Here Now while
tripping out in the middle of London traffic after having just flown in from Amsterdam while doing Europe on $5 a day.
I'm hiding it from my kids for as long as possible.

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Ms. Miranda

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #77 - on: 17.04.2011 at 19:15 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 17.04.2011 at 18:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myrios on 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1]:
How about RAM DASS as a Guru. Be Here NOW. Good or Bad ???

I was flabbergasted when I came across a copy of that artsy book by Ram Dass/Richard Alpert, which was all the rage in the 1960s in
Barnes and Noble recently. I had forgotten how much LSD and marijuana was really responsible for any feelings of Being Here Now while
tripping out in the middle of London traffic after having just flown in from Amsterdam while doing Europe on $5 a day.
I'm hiding it from my kids for as long as possible.

Posts: 3684
Gender:What I found so hysterical was that he went out of his way to not be married or have children because he didn't
want anything distracting him from his spiritual growth. Last year I came upon this article and I just had tolaugh at the hubris of him. It's a prime example of not just "when we make plans, God laughs" but how self
indulgent so many people on the path to spirituality can be.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sara-davidson/ram-dass-has-a-son_b_777452.html

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #78 - on: 17.04.2011 at 19:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 17.04.2011 at 16:34 [UT+1]:
Quote from beyond the stars on 16.04.2011 at 20:50 [UT+1]:
oh wow, that's interesting/weird timing, because I was just this second reading an excerpt from Deepak Chopra's book that
I kind of thought was appropriate for some sort of baseline understanding of thepsychological motivation behind how manipulator-gurus might operate ...

I didn't find anything objectionable in that passage. Seemed like a reasonable description of symptoms we all share to some extent. I
guess whether there's a problem depends on what he suggests to deal with it.

Ah, I now see how this could be misconstrued; I didn't mean Deepak Chopra himself, but what he wrote seems
to me to describe how bad guys operate. Sorry for the confusion. I really must learn to write better.
I actually have no idea whether Deepak Chopra is good or bad, or what he is.... I have never read his stuff, anddo not follow him... This was actually the first of his stuff I ever read. You see him all the time, of course. Hard
not to. He's on book covers in bookstores, and on the news. I think CNN interviews him, or used to. He seems
reasonable. Anyway, like I said, I have no idea for sure. Lots of things I do not "know," I only know 'about.' I do
have a lot of opinions, though, which are not quite the same thing as actual knowledge.

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Apostrophe

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #79 - on: 17.04.2011 at 21:42 [UT+1] »Re Deepak Chopra: I've posted this link before, but if anyone missed it, I think it's a good example of theessential differences between the spiritual and scientific approaches to important questions (Chopra and Michael
Shermer at Caltech):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLwnqDvlXqI
Either side is not good or bad, and neither are their gurus. Just the two sides on the Tree Of Life with its law ofPosts: 2454

opposites.
I don't know if he would be counted as a "guru", or in fact whether any scientist would be looked at that way,
but surely the person who will be most remembered for reforming our ideas about God and the universe is
Einstein.

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Evolving
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #80 - on: 17.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1] »After watching your link realworld, I'm starting with part 1.
We are a civilization that will argue against with what one cannot see.
As I recall Chopra is a g
Coffee in hand watching part 1....Movie review to follow.

Posts: 400

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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #81 - on: 17.04.2011 at 22:31 [UT+1] »Here's her chart Fauve.....
Have at her, as they say in North America.....
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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #82 - on: 17.04.2011 at 22:58 [UT+1] »Crocus
Where did you get the birth time...?
It's late up here and I have a busy day tomorrow. Will get back on this.
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Pearl Diver

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #83 - on: 18.04.2011 at 10:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Calanthe Uigenna on 16.04.2011 at 14:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Pearl Diver on 16.04.2011 at 14:27 [UT+1]:
The age of gurus is coming to an end I hope...

We're in an age of gurus? When did it start?

Posts: 957
Gender:I don't know, it was a rough term, hence the lower-case 'a'. Perhaps during the great cosmical alignment of
14356... or last tuesday...?
Why do you ask?

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #84 - on: 18.04.2011 at 10:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Evolving on 17.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
After watching your link realworld, I'm starting with part 1.
We are a civilization that will argue against with what one cannot see.
As I recall Chopra is ag

Coffee in hand watching part 1....Movie review to follow.

Posts: 957
Gender:

Chopra =b

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Evolving

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #85 - on: 18.04.2011 at 11:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Pearl Diver on 18.04.2011 at 10:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from Evolving on 17.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
After watching your link realworld, I'm starting with part 1.
We are a civilization that will argue against with what one cannot see.
As I recall Chopra is ag

Coffee in hand watching part 1....Movie review to follow.

Posts: 400b

Chopra =gA

with fB = now I understand his 'excitement' from the first 'movie clips' - getting quite heated.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chopra%2C_Deepak
I can relate to both sides.
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Pearl Diver
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #86 - on: 18.04.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Evolving on 18.04.2011 at 11:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from Pearl Diver on 18.04.2011 at 10:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from Evolving on 17.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
After watching your link realworld, I'm starting with part 1.
We are a civilization that will argue against with what one cannot see.
As I recall Chopra is ag

Coffee in hand watching part 1....Movie review to follow.

Posts: 957
Gender:b

Chopra =gA with fB = now I understand his 'excitement' from the first 'movie clips' - getting quite heated.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chopra%2C_Deepak
I can relate to both sides.

Oh -fair enough, stand corrected - can't remember where I got b from
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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #87 - on: 18.04.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1] ».....the BK birth data comes from an out of print book of hers I think.....I dont have it so cant verify....

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Ethereal

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru

Mountain« Reply #88 - on: 18.04.2011 at 13:44 [UT+1] »Member

I never (consciously) heard of Byron Katie until this thread. Nice to not have a TV. But I read a Wikipedia entry
on her. I can't help thinking she's all about denial...

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Violet Bluebell

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #89 - on: 18.04.2011 at 15:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms Miranda re Ram Dass What I found so hysterical was that he went out of his way to not be married or have children because hedidn't want anything distracting him from his spiritual growth

Most gurus are pure Neptune. They dangle the carrot of ascension in front of their followers. They don't
encourage you just to get on and live your life and learn wisdom from going through the lessons that daily lifeand relationships offer you. They encourage evading life...escapism into 'teachings', rituals, service of 'thecause' whether it is truly useful work or not.
There's a good book called After the Ecstasy, the Laundry.... and picking the kids up from school, visiting themother-in-law, re-cooking dinner when you've just accidently tipped it onto the floor, dragging yourself out of
bed even with a heavy cold and getting yourself to work on time.....
If you can do that and still SMILE then you're living the life the universe wants to live through you. It has
nothing to do with worshipping anyone (usually in the hope that your daily lot will be improved) or being partof a select group that actually just feeds a sense of superiority, of being 'chosen' not to have to go through thepains that other people go through.
Quote from Virago The channel Michael says that one of the experiences that every soul must go through on the path back to the
Tao is that of honorably serving a dishonorable leader

Oh yes, millions have until they're dis-illusioned. It's quite horrific how serious some allegations are aboutgurus even in the love-n-light category. In the early 1990s a huge rumpus broke out regarding Sai Baba andhis alleged fondling of young boys. Many devotees left 'the cause'. See that Sun-Saturn-Venus conjunction(Sun/Saturn in Scorpio) squaring Neptune right on his MC. Plus a Moon-Pluto conjunction in the 8th house.
Very dodgy. The interesting thing is that some of these gurus do supposedly have magical powers and his arevery well documented. So, is he a 'dark god' (possibly a 'reptilian'?) who is a capable and convincing magician
but uses his powers for his own ends...feeding off sexual energy?
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Ms. Miranda
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #90 - on: 18.04.2011 at 16:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Violet Bluebell on 18.04.2011 at 15:52 [UT+1]:
There's a good book called After the Ecstasy, the Laundry.... and picking the kids up from school, visiting the mother-in-law, re-cooking
dinner when you've just accidently tipped it onto the floor, dragging yourself out of bed even with a heavy cold and getting yourself towork on time.....

Sounds like book worth reading. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #91 - on: 18.04.2011 at 17:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Violet Bluebell on 18.04.2011 at 15:52 [UT+1]:

There's a good book called After the Ecstasy, the Laundry.... and picking the kids up from school, visiting the mother-in-law, re-cooking
dinner when you've just accidently tipped it onto the floor, dragging yourself out of bed even with a heavy cold and getting yourself towork on time.....
If you can do that and still SMILE then you're living the life the universe wants to live through you. It has
nothing to do with worshipping anyone (usually in the hope that your daily lot will be improved) or being part of a select group that

Posts: 957
Gender:actually just feeds a sense of superiority, of being 'chosen' not to have to go through the pains that other people go through.

Is yours the only criteria? Surely those who chose a life of asceticism or teaching are living the life the universe
wants to live through them? Even those who forsake the company of family?
Each to their own - its impossible to know another's motives. Perhaps some people are seeking this:Quote:
being part of a select group that actually just feeds a sense of superiority, of being 'chosen' not to have to go through the pains that otherpeople go throughbut you do a disservice if you think that all who follow a different life from the one you described are taking theeasy way out.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #92 - on: 18.04.2011 at 17:26 [UT+1] »Well: If this is the correct birth time of Byron Katie this chart does speak volumes to me….
This woman doesn’t even realize what she is doing IMO: She does have all the legal disclaimers she needs
though, just for in case she hurts a severe trauma victim on stage in front of a camera: Saturn, ruler of the
7th into the 12th house as well as Uranus ruler of the 9th near to the cusp of the12th house. The 7th houseas well as the 9th house rules legal matters. No matter who feels harmed after the nine day’s of training in
the BK school and even if it is for all the right reasons: You’ve signed a contract with a legal disclaimer in it,
which makes Byron Katie non accountable for what ever happens to you as a result of the training...
Mercury, ruler of the 12th house: The smart little bugger, is on top of the charming hypnotic Sun/Venus trine
Pluto situation (which Charles Manson also has BTW) , - who has his base in the second house: Repeating her
own perpetrators phrases with love bombing hypnotic eyes to keep her own security intact. Ruler of the second
house is the Moon Which makes a square to Chiron with a very tight orb…. Part of a T-square with Mars on topof her Moon into the 5th and an opposition to Uranus in the 11th house. As well as of course, the Chiron North
Node conjunction into the 3rd house in Leo… Hmmmm...
I know there are outlets; I just ask myself the question did this woman actually had the chance to develop ahealthy self…? There is no doubt in my mind, based on the T-square with the Moon squeezed into it; thiswoman has been through a lot of emotional pain which shattered her feelings of security on a basic level andmaybe even her sense of reality to keep some sort of balance to survive: Neptune in Libra in sextile with theMoon in Scorpio; ruler of her rising sign as well as the second house.
Reversing reality and dissociating your clients a way from their true wounded feelings by turning a round theirreality has nothing to do with healing people. But keeps them in a state of dissociation and confusion; and yes
ignorance can be a bliss and very seductive in the middle of the real world: Especially for those who are truly
deeply wounded and searching for salvation and healing. As not to mention true love and/or parents that willlove the “hell” out of them.
However she claims she fully healed herself and shares this with the rest of the world calling this: The work….
Which has kind of a Nazi ring to me (sorry) and the Saturn/Uranus conjunction in Gemini, somehow doesn’tlook good to me. I noticed a Saturn in Aquarius in Charles Manson’s chart too; Besides the severe emotional(Moon) situation he has going on as well.
Does this mean they are the same: No it doesn’t, but they both might have splintered personality’s of somesort. We al know how Manson’s belief system worked out in the end. Which is deeply depressing if you think
about it: I mean we all saw the photo’s of the highly pregnant Sharon Tate, didn’t we…
Maybe we should do BK’s 4 questions on this one as well:
1. Is it true…? 2. Can I absolutely know that it’s true…? 3.How do I feel when I think that thought or is there apeaceful reason to keep that thought…? 4. Who would I be without that thought…?
Do I need to say more…?
What bothers me about Byron Katie is that she attracts many severe trauma victims from all over the world
and claims she can help healing PTSD, but in the end; she is not accountable at all. How dare she make thatpromise and if she would have healed herself would she be this disrespectful: Getting them there on a stage infront of a camera as well as a large public full of people who want to be Love Bombed; making them tell theirstory to turn it a round in the end and not even validate it…?! I can’t believe people are buying into this even
without having severe trauma’s. Seriously….
Here is a link to a review of a book written by a group of psychiatrics for psychiatrics who happen to work withsevere trauma victims. I have this book: I also have a 9th house Virgo Moon in sextile with my 7th house
Cancer Sun, ruler of my 9th house; all this with my 7th house Jupiter in Cancer: Ruler of my rising sign, in a
one degree orb on the cusp of my 8th house; combined with a Mercury in Cancer into he 8th house as well: I
eat books like this for breakfast.
Like I said, this book has been written by a group of people it has two forewords and an introduction into theEnglish language. By the time I ended up reading the second foreword, I was crying my eyeballs out…. Even
though I read more then 300 pages in an afternoon: It took me long time finishing this book. It is thecomplete opposite of what Byron Katie is doing: Trust me… It is.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200110253451718
Here is another link to a thread on Byron Katie also on the Rick Ross forum: Started by a severe traumatised
woman who did fall for Byron Katie’s approach. I don’t know this woman, but I do hope some of you out there
will validate her post, just by reading it: It must have been tough on her writing it.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,9147,page=1g
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #93 - on: 18.04.2011 at 17:31 [UT+1] »A true Guru never encourages leaving your duties in life.
On the contrary doing them with full geist.
In some cases some people are benefited by some time inseclusion however. But that's just temporary.
The daily life is where the teachings are tested.
Are you capable of opening your heart in the midst of the humdrum
buisy challenges of daily life ?
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Fauve
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #94 - on: 18.04.2011 at 17:41 [UT+1] »Quote from crocus on 18.04.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1]:.....the BK birth data comes from an out of print book of hers I think.....I dont have it so cant verify....

Then, where did you get it...?

Please do give me your source.

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StefanEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #95 - on: 18.04.2011 at 17:45 [UT+1] »I feel it's a bit superficial to take charts of persons and make judgemental
comments about it.
Every chart have millions way of manifesting in either positive or negative ways
depending on the persons level of Awareness.
This all important factor is however not seen in the chart.
Only a person/astrologer with a high level of intuition can see the difference. It's not generally seen in thevariables themself.
An advanced adept/guru transcends the chart.
Neptune can be both mystic and deluded.
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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #96 - on: 18.04.2011 at 19:36 [UT+1] »I dont remember the name of the book Fauve, it was years ago, lent to me by a friend who was also
traumatised (like me) and who loves The Work....(she is a stable earthy Taurean type, not a wierdo flake/gullible
neophyte sort.....just goes to show I spoze, we can all have vastly different experiences)......I just remember
making a note of the birth data I picked up.....it seems a little suspect as it is 8pm exactly....like I said it was along time ago so I dont recall the details.....I just kept the chart.....
I guess we each need to go with what works for us. I apologise if my singing the praises of The Work offended
you......all I can say is that I and others I know and admire received value from it and at the same time I saw
the shadow side of what was going on as previously mentioned.....really just predictable power and control
issues which most of these Gurus seem to have......I cant see BK stooping to the level of the Koolaid lot orother murderous names being mentioned but that doesnt mean there arent personal agendas going on......forme I got what I needed and moved on.....
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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #97 - on: 18.04.2011 at 19:48 [UT+1] »Quote from crocus on 18.04.2011 at 19:36 [UT+1]:
I dont remember the name of the book Fauve, it was years ago, lent to me by a friend who was also traumatised (like me) and who loves
The Work....(she is a stable earthy Taurean type, not a wierdo flake/gullible neophyte sort.....just goes to show I spoze, we can all havevastly different experiences)......I just remember making a note of the birth data I picked up.....it seems a little suspect as it is 8pm
exactly....like I said it was a long time ago so I dont recall the details.....I just kept the chart.....
I guess we each need to go with what works for us. I apologise if my singing the praises of The Work offended you......all I can say is that
I and others I know and admire received value from it and at the same time I saw the shadow side of what was going on as previously
mentioned.....really just predictable power and control issues which most of these Gurus seem to have......I cant see BK stooping to thelevel of the Koolaid lot or other murderous names being mentioned but that doesnt mean there arent personal agendas going on......forme I got what I needed and moved on.....

I am not offended by it: But I did work myself through both of these threads. I was shocked and still am
p*ss*d, but it has nothing to do with you. Thanks for the data even though we'll might never know if it is hercorrect birth time.
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #98 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Stefan on 18.04.2011 at 17:45 [UT+1]:
I feel it's a bit superficial to take charts of persons and make judgemental
comments about it.
Every chart have millions way of manifesting in either positive or negative ways
depending on the persons level of Awareness.
This all important factor is however not seen in the chart.
Only a person/astrologer with a high level of intuition can see the difference. It's not generally seen in the variables themself.
An advanced adept/guru transcends the chart.
Neptune can be both mystic and deluded.

Can you speak more to ways in which you see this happening, remembering that we really don't have the ability
to do a full chart reading here... we are largely going to have to go on individual bits and pieces we notice inthe chart in question. Also, someone who has already been outted as a fraud, or as a potentially toxic source, isgoing to be someone who inspires this kind of analysis.
I also have to kind of disagree with the notion that an "advanced" guru "transcends" the chart. I don't thinkanyone "transcends" their chart. Since there are so many different levels one can read for in the chart, though,from the base material to the supernatural, or psychic experience... how we read is largely dependent on how
much we currently see, combined with where we're at on our own spiritual quest... but I would caution people
away from thinking that spiritual leaders have somehow transcended human reality. I am concerned that thatkind of thinking is a way of making it so that the spiritual leader never has to take responsibility for theiractions on the mundane level.... "oh, they don't have to clean toilets! they've transcended the material realm,
and are so much better than us, that their shining light/wisdom comes through clearly even in the mundanityof an astrological chart!"
No. I have a tendency to reject that notion. Every true spiritual leader I can think of, that bears listening to,has an earthly incarnation for a reason, it seems to me, and that comes with an astrological chart (when time ofbirth is known). And then, when time of birth is not known, it doesn't change the fact that they were born at atime in a place, centering them and locating them on the earth. They are of us, even if they are here to explain
another dimension of reality to us. That ability does not isolate them from us. If anything, it should connect
them even further to their human nature, bringing them closer to us, not pushing them farther away. I resist
the urge to "turn them into" the divine, when we are all divine, are all capable of expressing our divinity, andmostly just need for it to be encouraged and to be shown the way.
I cannot be shown the way from someone who has "transcended," however. Then that puts that person (who is
still human, right? I mean, we agree this is a human we're talking about?) into a realm where s/he cannot bereached, s/he is not reachable by me, the mere mortal. Well, I don't want to be in that place, and I don't want
my spiritual leader to be in that place either. If my spiritual leader were a balloon, "transcending" by floating
above me, I'd pull him-her-it back down towards me so that we could be face to balloon. I don't want myspiritual leader above me; I want my spiritual leader where I can look into his or her eyes, one-on-one, andglean whatever wisdom there is at the level of equality. And since I haven't transcended, it's not going to do me
any good to be in communication with someone who has.
Plus which, I just simply hate the inherent elitism of the spiritual community. Relationships are never sounequal as they can be in the spiritual community. I do not get on my knees for just anyone, another reason
why I deeply question someone's transcendence. Doesn't this mean they never make mistakes? How is thathumanly possible?
So, as you can see, I just deeply question this line of thinking. I don't believe in transcendence, not if we'retalking about the material body living on the material plane in material existence. When we lose the body, losematerial reality, leave this plane behind, yes, maybe; but not if you're still inhabiting a body. Then you've got
responsibilities to live up to, and I am not bowing or scraping to anyone, all the while being told, "oh, they've'transcended', they're better than you or I."
Hmmmmmm. Nope. Not buying it.
A definition of transcendence: "Beyond or above the range of normal human experience." That sums up how I
feel when looking at a rainbow. I haven't yet seen a person who inspires that thought in me, and I'm fairly
certain that if you attach that feeling to a person, you're setting yourself up to be let down, disappointed, anddisillusioned. All it takes is seeing the Transcended coming out of the loo, zipping his pants up, to feel like he's
just not all he's cracked up to be.
Not picking on you, Stefan, just the idea. Don't take this amiss. It's not about you. I'm sure you're a lovely
human being, and we'd get on like a house on fire. But I don't like the idea of transcendence. I find that
believing in it absolves individuals of responsibility, and that's one idea I do want to make sure is on the table:
being a spiritual guru or guide should be about taking responsibility for others, since you're setting yourself up
as their leader.
BTW, I am totally thinking of Gandhi, so don't worry: I know he wasn't afraid to clean toilets.
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100thMonkey

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #99 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:19 [UT+1] »Quote:
How a Self-Help Guru Is Born
Once Depressed, Overweight and Volatile, Byron Katie Awoke One Morning to the Sensation of a Cockroach Walking Across Her Foot--andFound Herself Transformed By...

Posts: 900

This is what her friends and family confirm: In 1986 Katie was a mother of three, on her second marriage and had spent a decade falling
into depression, agoraphobia, overeating and addiction to codeine and alcohol. They say she rarely left her bed and grew so paranoid thatshe sometimes slept with a loaded gun under her bed.
"She was probably one of the saddest, angriest people I've ever known," recalls her daughter, Roxann Burroughs, who was 16 at the time.
Her sons, then ages 18 and 23, had moved out of the house. ...
Katie desperately needed help, but the idea of seeing a therapist or even a religious or spiritual advisor didn't square with her upbringing.
"We're like Barstow desert people," explains Burroughs, who still lives in the Mojave, where she and her husband own a construction
business. "We didn't know about therapy or 12-step. So Mom stayed in bed, and we ordered pizza and watched TV."
Eventually, Katie says, she called her insurance company, which referred her to Hope House, a Los Angeles residential treatment center
for women with eating disorders that has since closed. While there, she slept in the attic because the other residents were afraid of her. "Itwas run like a home with a house mother, so there was some democracy," recalls Pat Scales, who was a therapist at Hope House but did
not live on the premises. "I remember that she was very emotional, both with anger and with tears. When she came into my group, she
was so emotionally fragmented there didn't seem to be a self there, which is not the case with most people with eating disorders. They're
fairly functional. She could easily have scared people."Less than two weeks into her stay, Katie says she awoke one morning to the sensation of a cockroach crawling across her foot. She
opened her eyes and, she explains in her book, "It was as if something else had woken up. It opened its eyes. It was looking throughKatie's eyes ... it was intoxicated with joy." At that moment, she claims, the four questions appeared in her consciousness.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,9147,page=2

Fascinating! Wish we had her birth time. I want to see what was happening when the cockroach ran over her
foot
wow and look at all the smiling facilitators, some with two smiles even
http://www.thework.com/facilitators.php?show=profile&fid=10&lang_cd=en
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Apostrophe
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #100 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:23 [UT+1] »Re Byron Katie: I wrote a post yesterday but was having internet issues so I guess it didn't go through. The
opposition of Saturn and Uranus to her personal planets is very significant, IMO. As we know, oppositions giveawareness, and one of the main tenets of her "teachings" is for people to question whether their problems are
real, then if they are, turn them around to their opposites, substituting words and images.
This is in fact a very old techniques used by the Greeks and part of most of the esoteric traditions which teachPosts: 2454

about consciousness. She happened to discover it by accident in bed one morning while going through a long
period of depression.
Similarly, harsh aspects in a person's horoscope, from Pluto for example, don't always mean control andmanipulation; they could just mean that this person has been forced to have a bit more psychological insightthan people without it, and that is what made them a teacher/guru in the first place. We should always look at
the mitigating, positive aspects too, to show how the power is channeled.

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Fauve

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #101 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:36 [UT+1] »In theory they might work out fine. If she has a serious split into her personality they won't.

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Evolving
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #102 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:44 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 18.04.2011 at 20:02 [UT+1]:
All it takes is seeing the Transcended coming out of the loo, zipping his pants up, to feel like he's just not all he's cracked up to be.

bwwahhaaaa!

dear lord, i love a sense of humor!

In many ways, journeying with a great sense of freedom the last 4 years has brought for me a great repression
feeling within some circled 'community.' Perhaps my 7th FmA wanting to shine and break free.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #103 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:47 [UT+1] »A number of people I have known seem to think that a guru is someone who can get high on his/her own
power. That seems a bit adolescent to me.

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #104 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1]:
How about RAM DASS as a Guru. Be Here NOW. Good or Bad ???
I'm all for living in the moment at my age - MUCh older than BTS btw
MyriosWell, I don't know about Bubby Rum-Da as a personality - from what I've heard he was just as human as therest of us, with some idealism sprinkled in. His stuff was inspiring enough in 1970 or so.
On the other hand "be here now" is truly a koan worth attending to.
- Ed
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Linda Harris

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #105 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1] »Yes, be here now.
Martin Schulman wrote a whole book on the subject: "The Karma of the NOW."
Posts: 17033

Whatever age you are your 'now' is all you have, really.
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Ed Falis
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #106 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:56 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 17.04.2011 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
I don't know if he would be counted as a "guru", or in fact whether any scientist would be looked at that way, but surely the person who
will be most remembered for reforming our ideas about God and the universe is Einstein.

"Our" is probably an over-generalization.
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Linda Harris

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #107 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:58 [UT+1] »"A number of people I have known seem to think that a guru is someone who can get high on his/her own
power"

Posts: 17033

Stephen, that is often the assumption. But I always think of St. Bernadette and remind people that when she
was very ill, people would ask her why she didn't "go to the spring"....and she said,"the spring is not for me."From her very first visitation the "lady" told her "I can't promise you happiness in this life, only in the next."
The apple tree can't eat its own fruit.
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Fauve
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #108 - on: 18.04.2011 at 20:59 [UT+1] »I agree if it comes to living in the here and now and in my NOW I am kind of p*ss*d by all the love and light
don't be negative bs again.

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #109 - on: 18.04.2011 at 21:07 [UT+1] »As a relatively famous guru of the early 70's once said (sort of paraphrased a bit), "We all are given ample
compost to feed our eventual enlightment - so don't run away from the shit".
from the mud. You aren't going to have one without the other.

Think lotus flowers growing

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #110 - on: 18.04.2011 at 22:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 18.04.2011 at 20:58 [UT+1]:
The apple tree can't eat its own fruit.

See, in my own funny way -I think the apple tree can eat its own fruit -especially if nobody else will -because the fallen apples -rotting on the ground -will feed that tree -just as mud feeds the lotus blossom
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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #111 - on: 18.04.2011 at 23:00 [UT+1] »Realworld - your post went thro but for some reason it ended up on a thread all of its own ! Look further down
the Psychological thread list you will see it, I read it and decided u must be just wanting to talk with 'evolving'
only so I didnt reply to it !
I feel the God topic along with Money are 2 of the most charged issues we all face......it for sure brings up thefull spectrum of emotions from 'stone him' to 'adoration'.......
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100thMonkey
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #112 - on: 18.04.2011 at 23:07 [UT+1] »Problems with people just need composting....
And an apple a day keeps the doctor away

Posts: 900

and/or feeds the tree.
Before enlightenment chop wood carry water
After enlightenment, chop wood carry water

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #113 - on: 19.04.2011 at 00:23 [UT+1] »Hey Beyond stars
Your name make me think of the word transcendence.
Yeah you are right the chart of the highest Guru's have relevance but not in the same way as
for person still stuck in identifying with the minds waves of ever rising stories.
Hope to give some examples later.
I just thought that the thread seemed to be a bit onesided negative so I may could give a more balanced wiew.

I have spent some some 20 years in a "cult"No...
But I have a Guru in the Indian tradition and have met other enlightened Guru's and spent a lot oftime studying teachings and practicing, and although it sometimes is upset and scandals in some traditions
existing today. I don't regret a moment feeling it to have been a saving grace for me in many ways.
You are right Ashram politics can be as rough as any business many times, and that part doesn't interest me at
all having not much contact with others in my tradition.
It can as in any other organisations be powerstruggles and other things going on too as in ordinary life.
sometimes even more as the speed of transformation is often accelerated in those places where the karmic
seeds come up strong forroasting.
Why having a Guru then ?
Having met my Guru in physical form just for short occasions. And still the effect of it is still alive in me,
and growing like a seed in very tangible ways. This particular Guru awakened the kundalini in me 25 years ago
and it is an ever growing process and transformation going on continually.
This is something I could never ever had done on my own. Like a child can not easily go for a university degree
without a teacher.
The quest for the true self is easier with a guide. This great gift is something that I am incredible grateful forand is a testimony of what contact with a true Guru give.
It's not necessary to have outer Guru though.
This was actually predicted by a professional astrologer i visited some time before intitation.
I had:
TrIoA
TrFmA 8th
She said to me you will have a spiritual awakening....

A Satguru (true guru) is more a mirror of our best part and not anything "more" than we are. Just don't awareof it.
A guru is ultimately an inner thing and is not about the outer physical form. This inner Guru Principle(Gurutattwa) sometimes gets reflected in the outer life. At certain points this may happen where a speedup of
the evolution is up to.
The true Guru is empty and is a mirror of the best in you. But can also reflect your blockages cleary.
I have looked into my Guru's eyes and seen just "beyond stars"
No one in there really.... like looking at astar bright sky. Just a mirror. A mirror of love and compassion in my experience.
And that is what the Guru also says in her teachings. You are love you are great etc. again and again.
So the only function of the true Guru is to help take away the darkness and reveal the light within.
A true guru sees not himself as better than anyone else or so. He sees just nonduality and sees everyone aspart ofhimself so theres not in essence any piedestals. But in indian tradition it's custom to treat Guru with respect.
To empty the cup to recieve full portion of what can be given. By aligning ones consciousness with the gurus
one get a
glimpse of oneselfs greatness as every one is perfection.
Ultimately it's not about the Guru's physical form though.
Everyone have the Guruprinciple within, so the outer guru met and initiated by, serves just as a symbolic
event in ones world of what in reality is an inner intitiation. So you meet the guru in your outer
universe and what he teach you is to "- Go within yourself.... You are everything... "Aham Brahmasmi""
This is something that have been practiced for ages and is almost an archetypical event. Described in the age
old scriptures of the east.
Sometimes the things happening in ashrams is set up for the ego's rubbing and dissolution which is therequirement for"becoming" pure consciousness the essence of what we are a part of the whole.

I realize can't explain this highly mysterious and powerful experience so that people understand I think, butyeah I try anyway.
I believe some people are meant to have a physical guru some don't. Nothing wrong with having your own Self
as guru.
Nothing wrong with having a Guru.
i feel more myself with having a Guru and not less actually.
On this thread my subjective opinion of the people I'm sure belongs to that category of being a Satguru (trueguru) is Ammachi, Ramana, Yogananda and probably Gangaji.

Hmm...I realise I didn't answer so much about what is transcendence.

So having read this please don't call a de-programmer
It's a quite selfabsorbed post here, but it's the only way to explain why I'm for the Guru principle in general.
Below is chart for intiation (approxiamate date).
Any astrological insights are welcome.
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Initiation.gif (attachment deleted)
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Ed Falis
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #114 - on: 19.04.2011 at 00:38 [UT+1] »Thanks Stefan for your perspective - I thought it was going one-sided as well. The principle of teacher in
Buddhism is someone who gives your ego a hard time to bring you to the point where he can communicatethat which is impossible to describe to you. Some can do it themselves, but it's hard enough even with thehelp of such a "guru". After all, spiritual development is what you get once you've exhausted yourself trying.
- Ed
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StefanEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #115 - on: 19.04.2011 at 00:50 [UT+1] »Thanks Ed for these thoughts.
I agree, sometimes it's a hell of a work

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Fauve
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #116 - on: 19.04.2011 at 01:03 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 18.04.2011 at 20:19 [UT+1]:
Quote:
How a Self-Help Guru Is Born
Once Depressed, Overweight and Volatile, Byron Katie Awoke One Morning to the Sensation of a Cockroach Walking Across
Her Foot--and Found Herself Transformed By...
This is what her friends and family confirm: In 1986 Katie was a mother of three, on her second marriage and had spent a
decade falling into depression, agoraphobia, overeating and addiction to codeine and alcohol. They say she rarely left her
bed and grew so paranoid that she sometimes slept with a loaded gun under her bed.
"She was probably one of the saddest, angriest people I've ever known," recalls her daughter, Roxann Burroughs, who was
16 at the time. Her sons, then ages 18 and 23, had moved out of the house. ...
Katie desperately needed help, but the idea of seeing a therapist or even a religious or spiritual advisor didn't square with
her upbringing. "We're like Barstow desert people," explains Burroughs, who still lives in the Mojave, where she and herhusband own a construction business. "We didn't know about therapy or 12-step. So Mom stayed in bed, and we orderedpizza and watched TV."
Eventually, Katie says, she called her insurance company, which referred her to Hope House, a Los Angeles residential
treatment center for women with eating disorders that has since closed. While there, she slept in the attic because theother residents were afraid of her. "It was run like a home with a house mother, so there was some democracy," recalls Pat
Scales, who was a therapist at Hope House but did not live on the premises. "I remember that she was very emotional,
both with anger and with tears. When she came into my group, she was so emotionally fragmented there didn't seem tobe a self there, which is not the case with most people with eating disorders. They're fairly functional. She could easily
have scared people."Less than two weeks into her stay, Katie says she awoke one morning to the sensation of a cockroach crawling across her
foot. She opened her eyes and, she explains in her book, "It was as if something else had woken up. It opened its eyes. It
was looking through Katie's eyes ... it was intoxicated with joy." At that moment, she claims, the four questions appearedin her consciousness.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?4,9147,page=2

Fascinating! Wish we had her birth time. I want to see what was happening when the cockroach ran over her footwow and look at all the smiling facilitators, some with two smiles even
http://www.thework.com/facilitators.php?show=profile&fid=10&lang_cd=en

More then fascinating. Beats the tabloids: All the juicy stuff on the guru's are on those boards. I became
addicted to it.
Byron Katie actually became enlightened by a cockroach...

Why don't I have one...?

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beyond the stars

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #117 - on: 19.04.2011 at 01:24 [UT+1] »Stefan, thank you very much for your perspective... why was I looking up Ludvika just today?? I don't
remember! Possibly something to do with Volvos. ... I am coming to your general neck of the woods soon, andwill send you my vibe.
Fauve, if you want to re-title the thread: "The Enlightened Cockroach" , I sure hope you will.
I'm pretty sure you can get enlightened from almost anything, including apple compost.
<---- actually, thisis true; I'm pretty sure true enlightenment comes at almost any moment, if the right set of circumstances arein place, mentally, spiritually, organically... etc.
But yes: what I call the love and light brigade does their crystal-hugging thing. The Love and Light Brigade is aplay on The Charge of the Light Brigade, a classic boondoggle during the Crimean War:The charge was the result of a miscommunication in such a way that the brigade attempted a much moredifficult objective than intended by the overall commander Lord Raglan. Blame for the miscommunication has
remained controversial, as the original order itself was vague. The charge produced no decisive gains andresulted in very high casualties, and is best remembered as the subject of the poem "The Charge of the Light
Brigade" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, whose lines emphasize the valour of the cavalry in carrying out their orders,even "tho' the soldier knew/Some one had blunder'd".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade
Now, this seems so classically Neptunian-fog induced to me, that it has always been a metaphor for what the"New Age" love and light brigade does: they charge in, optimism-flags flying, telling you that your hiney is up
your whatsit, but here, have an herb, here, smoke this, here, imagine white light, pink light, blue light,
surrounds you, while they give you a pot of chai tea with one hand, a fading daisy with the other, reassuringyou "it will be all right." Um: no it won't, not without some enlightened effort on your part to make itbetter. A lot of stuff sucks, and it sucks worse in the 3rd world. The Optimistic Ostrich combination: Neptune
Up Your Yin-Yang.
Love and light indeed. Phooey.
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Ms. Miranda
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #118 - on: 19.04.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Fauve on 19.04.2011 at 01:03 [UT+1]:
Byron Katie actually became enlightened by a cockroach...

Why don't I have one...?

I guess god is in the details, after all.

Posts: 3684
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vertexMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #119 - on: 19.04.2011 at 02:13 [UT+1] »I've encountered a few cockroaches on the Astrodienst Forum, but somehow I haven't become Enlightened.

Anyway, thanks Stefan and Ed for your posts. Good food for thought about the spiritual teacher/guide/guru
Posts: 5576
Gender:concept.....even for those of us who don't have the goal in life, at least consciously, to become "Enlightened".
Sometimes being (too) "enlightened" is what holds you back. I just want insight (life tips), just to getby...which is also a hell lot of work. I really liked that lotus growing in the mud imagery.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #120 - on: 19.04.2011 at 04:14 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 18.04.2011 at 20:23 [UT+1]:...one of the main tenets of her [Byron Katie] "teachings" is for people to question whether their problems are real, then if they are, turnthem around to their opposites, substituting words and images.
This is in fact a very old techniques used by the Greeks and part of most of the esoteric traditions which teach about consciousness.

It's also the basis or Rational Emotive Therapy and used extensively in Cognitive/Behavioural therapy of all
kinds.
However in those therapeutic situations it is reinforced by repetition and the client is urged to do homeworkassignments to put the new awareness into practice for however long it takes to break the habit of the originalirrational belief...which is the real Work!
What I'm sceptical about with the Byron Katie thing is the way they imply that people's lives are changed in thecourse of a weekend workshop, or even a 10 minute session. The McDonalds of psychotherapy, a quick fix.
I suspect what usually happens is the person goes home happy as Larry on a big high and then within a few
weeks life is back to it's normal conflicted state, and the 'moment of awakening' is all but forgotten. We are
creatures of habit.
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Ethereal Mountain

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #121 - on: 19.04.2011 at 05:08 [UT+1] »good guru

Posts: 1039
Gender:http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJxNTkEKwjAQfI23FZJINBj2qog3L543JLShbi
jbhNLfm-JFBoZhZtmZNU8ZjR8YSfsS8UVMk-RlLATAoB2YTqczKHtVCthdkjUwtA8oeJIwydwmEniUmAlqbFFW2j9osNTDIU4_X_evUg1oXYHo24pSCPZutybfKjb3CdxHZHq6sdlw6P2sqB-37-UAjbG

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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #122 - on: 19.04.2011 at 07:37 [UT+1] »1 of my favorite gurus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXdsDxYnGkI&feature=related
I think you will like him BTS !

Oh and of course this is one of my favorite 'devotees':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQJyKhmqkQ&feature=related(dreamy !!!

).....

With 'The Work' (BK) or the similar questioning techniques that people refer to which have been around foreons....its a technique that is designed to bring in the heart. If the questioning comes from and stays on theconceptual level it wont work. It works when the questions are asked in a quiet space and answers are allowed
to surface from the deep.....so its an experiential thing....a bit like a meditation...... the 'Know it all mind'
becomes stilled by the honesty of the heart.....so that the Control Freak relaxes and the Kindness takes over.....
its easy to punch holes in things we havent tried or dont understand.......from what I have observed andexperienced the shift that can happen is permanent.....but we are all free to decide what is correct for us andhow deep to dive in....or when to get out....
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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #123 - on: 19.04.2011 at 08:45 [UT+1] »Quote from crocus on 19.04.2011 at 07:37 [UT+1]:

With 'The Work' (BK) or the similar questioning techniques that people refer to which have been around for eons....its atechnique that is designed to bring in the heart. If the questioning comes from and stays on the conceptual level it wont work. It works
when the questions are asked in a quiet space and answers are allowed to surface from the deep.....so its an xperiential thing....a bit likea meditation...... the 'Know it all mind' becomes stilled by the honesty of the heart.....so that the Control Freak relaxes and the Kindness
takes over..... its easy to punch holes in things we havent tried or dont understand.......from what I have observed and experienced theshift that can happen is permanent.....but we are all free to decide what is correct for us and how deep to dive in....or when to get out....

I know: It also is a powerful tool used in black psychological mind control operations. Most definitely one ofthe oldest tricks in the book.
If you are working from your heart, you just are working from the heart. You do not have to ask yourself 4
questions and turn reality a round before you get there. Feeling pain, agony and defeat is allowed: It simply
comes with the job.

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Marle
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #124 - on: 19.04.2011 at 12:46 [UT+1] »Thank you for your explanation, Stefan. Very interesting.

If I understand properly, the value of it could be that it teaches in a methodical way how to reach a certain
state of mind. Maybe we all can experience it through episodes in life, but this way you can decide when tosystematically. It looks very difficult though.
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StefanEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #125 - on: 19.04.2011 at 14:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Marle on 19.04.2011 at 12:46 [UT+1]:
Thank you for your explanation, Stefan. Very interesting.

If I understand properly, the value of it could be that it teaches in a methodical way how to reach a certain state of mind. Maybe we allcan experience it through episodes in life, but this way you can decide when to systematically. It looks very difficult though.

Yes in a way yogic spiritual techniques are methodical and layed down in detail in age old scriptures. The map isthere.
On the other hand one never nows when the thing smack you and an opening happens. It can happen anytime.
I feel it is not something planned.
Yes it's a bit like running a Marathon it seems, going against your own tendencies which are quite hardetched. But once it have openened up there's often no way back.
It's like the moth drawn to the light. The process is compelling in a way.
The goal is a state of mind where there is no problems at all and there is great happiness for no outer reason.
This state is then according to scriptures and theory final, not for just this lifetime but for all lifetimes. The
state ofEnlightenement. Freedom from the suffering inherent in the process of transmigration through different
lifetimes
attached to the karmic load. These karmic seeds (samskaras) is stored in the Causual body and is roasted in the
yogic
process of doing techniques like meditation, mantra et.c
My way is kundalini awakening by a masters touch or grace ( Shaktipat). Really the grace from the
Universe/God/Self or depending on terminology through the medium of an outer physcial Guru. So I don't
have done much this lifetime for getting this. But then is the process of keep the process going,
That's the Marathon of keep going on.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #126 - on: 19.04.2011 at 14:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 18.04.2011 at 20:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myrios on 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1]:
How about RAM DASS as a Guru. Be Here NOW. Good or Bad ???
I'm all for living in the moment at my age - MUCh older than BTS btw
MyriosWell, I don't know about Bubby Rum-Da as a personality - from what I've heard he was just as human as the rest of us, with someidealism sprinkled in. His stuff was inspiring enough in 1970 or so.
On the other hand "be here now" is truly a koan worth attending to.
- Ed

Be Here Now sure is a good thought these days, Ed, regardless of the 'source'.
I really know nothing of guru's, or "Bubby Rum-Da". Only thing I know of him, was a Netflix video I watched acouple years ago ... he had a stroke, and his speech is very slow and deliberate, also he is lame now, in awheelchair. He comes from a very wealthy background, so had his own "man" who gives him daily physicaltherapy, lifts him in and out of his limo, etc., and of course he gets a lot of mileage out of his audience from hiswheelchair position. The one detail sticking in my memory from the whole video, was how his ego showed up
rapidly with a (female) speech therapist, a bit of a 'cluck cluck' encouraging type. It immediately became clear
how he looked down on her for her 'cluck clucking' ways....so just a mere human after all.
Of course, if one spends one's time in any kind of meditative practice, it eventually brings a serenity one canaccess more easily at any moment. Any one can learn this habit for themselves. No guru required, just a bookor method of instruction -- but I guess only 'guru' types write these books?
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Marle

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #127 - on: 19.04.2011 at 15:20 [UT+1] »Thank you again, Stefan.
You are explaining very clearly things I have read of and never knew what people
were talking of, like Enlightenment.

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Ms. Miranda
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #128 - on: 19.04.2011 at 15:49 [UT+1] »RE: Ram DassI find it more than interesting that this man is considered a spiritual guru when he suffered a stroke.
Enegetically speaking, a stroke is indicative of someone who has over used logic over intuition, used mind
control over true connection to a higher power. It relates to the dark night, the fear of the loss of identity, fearof spiritual abandonment, connection with life and people. And this is kind of interesting in light of the fact that
he purposefully, willfully and consciously insulated himself from intimate union with another. No wife, no kids toraise, no connection with family.
The light of this, the deeper set point of this is indeed, Be present in the moment, however, if you cannot
connect and be present with people, life, and something higher than you, then you've got an unrealized inner
Posts: 3684
Gender:conflict between what you are doing and what you believe on an unconscious level. Deep down, this man is self
indulgent, needing, and wanting, but not allowing himself to overcome the fears of what that means to his
JdH1. He may have been present, but that does not mean he was conscious of Self. He was in a"compulsively protective shell", one might say... That is the rub in this. The dichotomy. The dueling innerconflict that energetically sparks dis-ease. All lies we tell ourselves are fuel for disease. And the unconscious
ones that evade are the most likely to erupt in the chart, in a Plutonian fashion. I have an uncle who suffered astroke and a heart attack as a result of a life time of denying his imagination, intuitive and pursuing the things
that he loved, because he was quelled and felt forces work against him (BoG) to fully express himself andtrust his inner guidance, higher Self and have faith in something bigger than "mom and dad".
A person who has a childish view of spirituality is going to net some challenges with the pursuit of any practiceno matter what religion or doctrine you choose. Taking in information and preforming a ritual is not spirituality.
Just because someone is looking at you when you are talking to them does not mean that they are hearing you.
And when I say "hear" I mean feel what you are expressing. There is large gap in the practices of spiritualitythat perhaps the placement of Il will endear us to, and deepen our connections with our self and others
beyond the five senses. I think that its' about time, personally. And I think that is what is missing. That sacredplace and space, that isn't about controlling one's thoughts. Because if "control" is activated, then "allowing" is
not going to animate. It's a double bind on the energetic plane. It's the fundamental Catch 22 of inner peaceand healing and a meaningful connection. If you cannot connect with Self, you cannot connect with the all. I
don't believe that Ram Dass really got this, consciously, in those years of his popularity and the evidence ofthat is his stroke.
In his book A Return to The Sacred, Jonathan Ellerby says, "Life loses it's vitality and meaning when spirituality
is controlled or contrived." And I find it very interesting that Ram Dass chose a new path of enlightenment in1967 when he met Neem Karoli Bab, the man he would "serve". It is of interesting note that Saturn wastransiting his 9th house at the time. The house of higher learning and mind expansion. Anyone who knows thistransit, as I do, knows that one of the things to be wary of is that the teachers that come into your life in thatmoment, you must decide if the spiritual path you are about to undertake matches your true self. How many
people actually know themselves well enough to know what that means for them? Finding a "guru" can be atreacherous experience if you haven't done the kind of inventory that allows you to expose the light andshadow aspects of self, holistically review the stories you tell yourself about your life, and consider that there
are infinite interpretations to behold, not just the myopia of your own that you're attached to. You need toleave an open door to the infinite potential of that which you do not know about yourself that is buried in your
Plutonian nature, that compels you to seek out things that you have no idea why feel empty, incomplete,unfinished or hollow. Ram Dass has his J in the 1st house, which is extremely interesting. In February of
1997, Ram Dass suffered a stroke, exactly 30 years later, when Saturn returned to its position it was in in 1967
and conjuncted his O in the 9th house. Stroke of Insight, perhaps? It was in these years he came out as bisexual, and then found out he had a son in '09 when he had GnO in his 3/9 sector, t GpGjH7(INTERESTING), and t GnMC, bringing the hidden up to the light. It was well publicized in articles.
I find this fascinating... How despite all our best efforts we're given road blocks to teach us where we've roadblocked ourselves.

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Rainbow Seeker

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #129 - on: 19.04.2011 at 16:15 [UT+1] »Ram Dass is a Harvard educcated guy, from an somewhat affluent family background. One of the things is
dislike is how you deterime that
RE: Ram DassI find it more than interesting that this man is considered a spiritual guru when he suffered a stroke.
Enegetically speaking, a stroke is indicative of someone who has over used logic over intuition, used mind
control over true connection to a higher power. It relates to the dark night, the fear of the loss of identity, fearof spiritual abandonment, connection with life and people. And this is kind of interesting in light of the fact that
he purposefully, willfully and consciously insulated himself from intimate union with another. No wife, no kids toraise, no connection with family.
Well there probably a suffiecient physical reason as to why Dass had tha stoke. hopefull you'll never have a
stoke, or be it a victim of a crime lest someone can accuse you of some you of being a party to it?
That being said though , I think you are somewhat right . I saw a documentary about Alpert, and your right..he is a harvard edcuacted guy, a psychological or an M.D . the Harvard side of him is this rational , logical,
career driven, person. Ram Dass, the guru I guess is "the seeker", the guy who broke away from all that. They
made a point in that Documentary of spelling that out.
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #130 - on: 19.04.2011 at 19:02 [UT+1] »I see that no one has mentioned The Secret yet.
Is it too much of a can of worms maybe? I think that we all know that Rhonda Byrne did not invent anything
new, as the secret of imaging our desires is the literally the oldest in the book - The Bible. It is also the themeof most of the spiritual revival of the 1880s, New Thought In Mentalism and our current New Age era. All thevaguely metaphysical gurus like Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle base their particular
philosophies on this so called "law" of consciousness - The Law Of Attraction.
Posts: 2454

I saw a great interview with Dan Brown, author of The Da Vinci Code, about his latest books, The Lost Symbol
and The Solomon Key. I think that he has acted the role of a sort of guru for esoteric/occult teachings in rather
a nice way - through entertainment. He has given people the choice to do their own research into secretsocieties like the Freemasons, without actually having to join and take vows of secrecy.
Also, does anyone have an comment of NLP - Neuro Linguistic Programming?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
What about Binaural Beats - also called Hemisync - inducing alpha, delta and theta states in the brain throughwearing a pair of headphones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats
Both these ideas have their schools, paid lessons, retreats and charismatic speakers. The Aquarian Age is full ofthem. Very different from the Piscean Age, where Jesus or Mohammad were meant to be the sole teachers of
the important stuff.

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Marle

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #131 - on: 19.04.2011 at 20:20 [UT+1] »A friend of mine is very much interested in something like that, realworld. She had been reading about it, andthen went with her children to a city for some sessions, and later to a seminar in a far-away city. The seminar
includes a device to start using it.
So, yes, I understand what you are saying... this could be something really interesting, but it costs a lot ofmoney, and it is not easy to see the real results. Then, somehow you have to believe in it.
My impression of my friend is that she is still interested, but that she is no longer thinking of going the next
steps (to get more specialized you'd need to attend more seminars getting more advanced devices, all a lot ofmoney).
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #132 - on: 19.04.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1] »I've found NLP very useful over the years. It helped immensely with quitting smoking. As far as thesevisualization things go in general, my attitude is that we are always telling ourselves stories about what it true
and the way things are. The element of truth in these methods is that if you tell yourself something is or isn't
possible you raise or decrease your ability to recognize how to make it real. Does not come with any
guarantees, but it does orient your attention a bit.
- Ed
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #133 - on: 19.04.2011 at 20:27 [UT+1] »No, I don't think "the" secret is in any way too much of a can of worms, realworld. But what it is, it seems tome, since I haven't read the book, is the power of visualisation and manifestation, which, as we all know, hasbeen around a long, long time. Although if I'm wrong, and it is a can of worms, that could prove very
interesting...
I was up way too late last night, CROCUS,"the" secret:watching Puppetji, who is hysterical, and so here is Puppetji on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXdsDxYnGkI&feature=related
I'm still in shock that people take things like "the" secret seriously. I probably started this thread under false
pretenses or something, since part of being boring means I have never once in my life bought a crystal, intoneda mantra, or bought a product by any maharishi. I should, I guess, someday before I die, but I should probably
also try LSD, just to see what it's like, and then see what I can manifest afterwards.
I remember being dragged to an EST meeting sometime in the early '80s down in LA... I remember having
heard about them trying to deny you access to the bathroom, so I asked someone about that and they said,
yes, that if you were in a conclave, they locked the doors and refused you access to a bathroom. I remember
saying to them, wow, that's gonna make a mess someday. Do spiritual people not have bladders?? I just don't
get it. I also remember finding out later that it was some kind of weird manipulative test; that if you poundedon someone's head long enough, they'd take you seriously and let you out to go to the bathroom. Reminds meof this woman I sat next to on a plane not all that long ago, and how I needed to get up, and she said, what
would you do if I said no, a clearly weird and passive-aggressive oddball thing to say, and i replied, I'd step on
you cause I do actually have to go, you weird manipulative oddball.
facilities once at EST and was taking it out on me.

I'll bet she'd been denied access to the

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #134 - on: 20.04.2011 at 00:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Marle on 19.04.2011 at 20:20 [UT+1]:
A friend of mine is very much interested in something like that, realworld. She had been reading about it, and then went with her children
to a city for some sessions, and later to a seminar in a far-away city. The seminar includes a device to start using it.

I presume that the device was simply a CD player or MP3-like player, along with CDs or digital samples of thePosts: 2454

binaural beats. I have a friend who joined the "Centrepoint" organization, and he sent me a demo CD of thesubliminal binaural beats with some nice ocean wave sounds over them - at least I presumed they were there
under the waves - it could all have been a placebo.
Quote:
So, yes, I understand what you are saying... this could be something really interesting, but it costs a lot of money, and it is not easy to
see the real results. Then, somehow you have to believe in it.
My impression of my friend is that she is still interested, but that she is no longer thinking of going the next steps (to get more specialized
you'd need to attend more seminars getting more advanced devices, all a lot of money).

Yes. My friend is now on one of the courses where you go into really deep meditation, but when I asked him to
describe the effects, he just kept on saying that it was amazing, and the only way to know it was to experience
it myself. I'm always skeptical of that sort of advice. But I was intrigued, and with a little research on theinternet found a website run by a clever techno guy where one can download the delta and theta samples forfree. I didn't want to spoil my friend's enjoyment, but still have a suspicion that it might all be a placebo affect,
and the more money you pay, and the more you read about what you are supposed to experience, the more
you do actually experience it, binaural beats or not.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #135 - on: 20.04.2011 at 00:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 19.04.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1]:
I've found NLP very useful over the years. It helped immensely with quitting smoking. As far as these visualization things go in general,
my attitude is that we are always telling ourselves stories about what it true and the way things are. The element of truth in thesemethods is that if you tell yourself something is or isn't possible you raise or decrease your ability to recognize how to make it real. Does
not come with any guarantees, but it does orient your attention a bit.
- Ed

Posts: 2454

Glad it helped with the quitting smoking Ed. I first came across NLP through a Derren Brown (the skeptic
magician guy) video. He uses the technique in some of his magic demonstrations. And also recently I bought abook for my son who says that he would like to give up smoking - it's not directly NLP, but the author, Alan
Carr uses a similar technique, so I have been told.

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #136 - on: 20.04.2011 at 00:35 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 19.04.2011 at 20:27 [UT+1]:

I remember being dragged to an EST meeting sometime in the early '80s down in LA... I remember having heard about them trying todeny you access to the bathroom, so I asked someone about that and they said, yes, that if you were in a conclave, they locked the doors
and refused you access to a bathroom. I remember saying to them, wow, that's gonna make a mess someday. Do spiritual people nothave bladders??

Posts: 2454

Well, you did say LA.
That's the whole thing I - and I think most people on this thread so far - dislike about these New Age andoccult schools - the secrecy and control issues. As I've described several times before on the forum, I used to
be a member of a "mystery school" where I actually learned some very interesting stuff about consciousness
according to kabala, but it was the Masonic organization of the place which gave me the creeps. Fortunately one
doesn't have to get involved with that side of it and can study independently if one would prefer.

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #137 - on: 20.04.2011 at 00:36 [UT+1] »Well, best of luck to him quitting - it's a haul.

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Jupiter's
Daughter

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #138 - on: 20.04.2011 at 01:49 [UT+1] »Member[quote author=Stephen Baxter link=1302913123/20#30 date=1302968946]Quote from Virago on
16.04.2011 at 16:16 [UT+1]:
I'm not sure about Hubbard. If he believes his rap, then I don't think it is a dangerous cult, but I have an open mind.

Posts: 1767

The story I heard was that L Ron was at a Sci Fi convention and was having drinks and started talking about
starting his own religion and sketched much of it on a cocktail napkin. The person who related this story to me
also said the "machine" they use to do their free personality assessment is just an empty box. My source didn't
think L Ron took his religion too seriously. If I'm remember this conversation correctly, it had something to dowith the money you could raise with your own religion. but that was over 10 years ago. They (Scientology)
keep donating books to our library and the library tosses them.

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Taylor Selseth

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #139 - on: 20.04.2011 at 14:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 17.04.2011 at 18:10 [UT+1]:
Oh HALLELUYAH I am so with you ALLL the way on this one ... the 'Only Positive' Crowd and the ... "Ban Negativism" Banner is my pet
peeve ... its yet another TOOL for NA manipulators ... my daughter used this one on me out of the blue one day (from her NewAge
Hypnotist who is sucking my daughter's Retirement Savings out of her bank account) just as I was plugging the coffee pot into thereceptacle - so I said - see that? - Positive & Negative Electrical Currents - they work together - so how can you have one without the

Posts: 222
Gender:other ?? She was dumbfounded. But of course, that too, I'm sure, would ultimately be construed as 'a negative remark' ...

The economic activist writer Barbara Ehrenreich (of Nickle and Dimed fame) has a recent book out on how the
Positive Thinking cult has assisted in justifying economic inequality and mistreatment at work. I can't
remember the name of the book, though.
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Taylor Selseth
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #140 - on: 20.04.2011 at 14:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 18.04.2011 at 16:37 [UT+1]:
Quote from Violet Bluebell on 18.04.2011 at 15:52 [UT+1]:
There's a good book called After the Ecstasy, the Laundry.... and picking the kids up from school, visiting the mother-in-

Posts: 222
Gender:law, re-cooking dinner when you've just accidently tipped it onto the floor, dragging yourself out of bed even with a heavy
cold and getting yourself to work on time.....

Sounds like book worth reading. Thanks for the suggestion.

I've read the book, very good.
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Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #141 - on: 20.04.2011 at 14:17 [UT+1] »Like 100thMonkey said ... before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After Enlightenment, chop wood carrywater.

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Ms. Miranda
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #142 - on: 20.04.2011 at 15:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 20.04.2011 at 14:17 [UT+1]:
Like 100thMonkey said ... before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After Enlightenment, chop wood carry water.
Myrios

I believe it was Teresa of Avila who said to go peel potatoes in the kitchen...

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Violet Bluebell

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #143 - on: 20.04.2011 at 15:37 [UT+1] »Carlos Castaneda said his guru/teacher made him go and flip burgers in a cafe for 10 years, even after his firstbook was published, just to make him lose his ego.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #144 - on: 20.04.2011 at 16:31 [UT+1] »In the same vein I think are the charities. In Austin, Texas recently we saw the scandal with the guru of anashram here, but we had another scandal, a charity scandal.
Louanne Aponte (Louanne Shetter maiden) who was in charge of a major charity, Family Connections, ischarged with stealing nearly $1 million dollars from three charities. Her husband is charged with money
laundering with $300,000 bail. She has fled the country, presumably to Venezuela. There is dispute aboutbirthdata, some say 1959, others 1958.
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Jupiter's Daughter

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #145 - on: 20.04.2011 at 17:29 [UT+1] »I want to be a Guru. Have my own religion, and acolytes who think I know everything.
I have a first house A septile F, bi-septile J
Posts: 1767

CqI, pJnB (cradle)
OoI
I 12th, J 9th, F11th O9th
What are my chances?
will I be a good Guru, or a purveyor of kool-aid?

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #146 - on: 20.04.2011 at 18:17 [UT+1] »... so, I was reading up on the history of gurus, and google automatically redirects you to the history of Sikhrelated gurus, which i thought was interesting. And in each description of a Sikh guru through the ages, theymention loss of ego, so apparently, to become a good guru, you really do have to lose your ego, or learn not to
let it dominate you. So that Jupiter's Daughter, who actively seeks guru-ism, would be immediately suspect,since your ego is OUT OF CONTROL
since power goes to these people's heads, whether they're sikh or not.
The antithesis of what you want in a guru is precisely what you get a lot of the time, where they somehow
manage to seduce a faithful flock into following them into perfidy (like Jim Jones)... and this is precisely what
you do not want in a leader, it seems to me. Someone whose ego is out of control, who doesn't represent theegolessness that is at the heart of spirituality. Drink the kool-aid cause I said so, and plus which, God wants
you to drink the kool-aid!! No. This is not good.
Here is Jim Jones' chart, with transits and progressions for the day he committed suicide. I thought it wasparticularly interesting that T I has entered his 12th house, in opposition to progressed D in the 6th. I do
rather consider this particular axis to be the crazy-person axis. I created a thread on this axis a long time ago
now, largely because it really goes under the radar, since no one seems to know what to make of the 6th house("oh, it's all about work...") um no it's not, it's about weird, psychotic mental illnesses, especially whensomething is transiting the 12th, triggering 6th house illness acting out. I guess I see it this way largely
because of the twisted nature of what are essentially subterranean influences coming from the hidden/psychotic
12th, where mental illness seems to lurk. Then a transit affects a progressed planet, and boom, full-blown
psychosis.
Then you look at the ruler of the 12th, F, posited in the 7th in conjunction with dominate the masses J, andyou can see the head job he would have been able to pull on people... I have A in the 7th. I know what the
7th can do; it projects its essential nature onto others. In this case, his essential nature is tied up with his 12thhouse crazy-person, which is triggered during the progression of D, a seemingly benign energy until you
research it and get away from the Romans and their one-dimensional idealisation of this planet's 'loving'energy. It's only loving if love hasn't been perverted at the source, and you know how to love.
Remembering that the Romans were very good at PR, and spreading the one-dimensional word of their Readers
Digest condensed beliefs (ideas travel better when they're packaged in simple wrapping, the better to colonise
you with, my dear), we do our own research to discover the darker side of Venus, which is completely capableof manipulating people charismatically and possibly sexually, although I do not know what Jim Jones got up tosexually. But the implication with the combination of D-F-J is that here is someone who could easily
manipulate others into doing his will.
There's an almost exact OsO, from progressed to natal O, an aspect of extremely high stress, it seems tome; and besides which, how often do you get O inconjuncting itself through progression? Not very often, I
suspect. The "magician" planet doing in this man with an overblown ego (his mother literally thought he was
the resurrected messiah, so how's that for a god-complex?). O, when it's out of control, is not a nice energy tomess with. Talk about ego. Possibly as bad as J, but manifesting in a different way. O would be much more
erratic and overt, but crazy in a way that J could possibly hide better (for awhile).
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astro_245gw_12_jim_jones_19781119.61564.13151.gif(attachment deleted)
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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #147 - on: 20.04.2011 at 18:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 19.04.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from Fauve on 19.04.2011 at 01:03 [UT+1]:
Byron Katie actually became enlightened by a cockroach...

Why don't I have one...?

I guess god is in the details, after all.

BTW, Ms. Miranda: that comment was hilarious. Sorry for the late response.

Jupiters daughter
Be patience: just wait for your encounter with that cockroach and you'll know...
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Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #148 - on: 20.04.2011 at 18:34 [UT+1] »Quote from Jupiter's Daughter on 20.04.2011 at 17:29 [UT+1]:
I want to be a Guru. Have my own religion, and acolytes who think I know everything.

A septile F, bi-septile J
CqI, pJnB (cradle)
OoI
I have a first house

I 12th, J 9th, F11th O9th
What are my chances?
will I be a good Guru, or a purveyor of kool-aid?

you know, it just occurred to me ... this little niggling Cthot form -- what if those ppl died in the belief that
their deaths would mean something -- that a message was to be gotten out {but never made it because MER
went retro grade} -- that they made a conscious and deliberate pure sacrifice of their lives as a group
committed to each other in the hope of waking others up to their message ??? Is that a bad thing or a goodthing.
YOU be the judge ???

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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #149 - on: 20.04.2011 at 18:42 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 20.04.2011 at 18:17 [UT+1]:... so, I was reading up on the history of gurus, and google automatically redirects you to the history of Sikh-related gurus, which ithought was interesting. And in each description of a Sikh guru through the ages, they mention loss of ego, so apparently, to become agood guru, you really do have to lose your ego, or learn not to let it dominate you. So that Jupiter's Daughter, who actively seeks guruism, would be immediately suspect, since your ego is OUT OF CONTROL

since power goes to these people's heads, whether they'resikh or not. The antithesis of what you want in a guru is precisely what you get a lot of the time, where they somehow manage to seducea faithful flock into following them into perfidy (like Jim Jones)... and this is precisely what you do not want in a leader, it seems to me.
Someone whose ego is out of control, who doesn't represent the egolessness that is at the heart of spirituality. Drink the kool-aid cause I
said so, and plus which, God wants you to drink the kool-aid!! No. This is not good.

I
D in the 6th. I do rather consider this particular axis to be the crazy-person axis. I

Here is Jim Jones' chart, with transits and progressions for the day he committed suicide. I thought it was particularly interesting that T
has entered his 12th house, in opposition to progressedcreated a thread on this axis a long time ago now, largely because it really goes under the radar, since no one seems to know what to
make of the 6th house ("oh, it's all about work...") um no it's not, it's about weird, psychotic mental illnesses, especially when somethingis transiting the 12th, triggering 6th house illness acting out. I guess I see it this way largely because of the twisted nature of what are
essentially subterranean influences coming from the hidden/psychotic 12th, where mental illness seems to lurk. Then a transit affects a
progressed planet, and boom, full-blown psychosis.

OsO, from progressed to natal O, an aspect of extremely high stress, it seems to me; and besides which, how
O inconjuncting itself through progression? Not very often, I suspect. The "magician" planet doing in this man with an
overblown ego (his mother literally thought he was the resurrected messiah, so how's that for a god-complex?). O, when it's out ofcontrol, is not a nice energy to mess with. Talk about ego. Possibly as bad as J, but manifesting in a different way. O would be much
more erratic and overt, but crazy in a way that J could possibly hide better (for awhile).
There's an almost exact
often do you get

Thanks BTS
I actually have Neptune near to the cusp of my 12th house, in conjunction with my Southnode in opposition
with my Venus Northnode conjuction into the 6th: you've just debunked me.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru

MyriosEx Member« Reply #150 - on: 20.04.2011 at 18:56 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 20.04.2011 at 18:17 [UT+1]:
T

I has entered his 12th house, in opposition to progressed D in the 6th. I do rather consider this particular axis to be the crazy-personaxis.[edit]6th house ("oh, it's all about work...") um no it's not, it's about weird, psychotic mental illnesses, especially when something istransiting the 12th, triggering 6th house illness acting out. [edit]largely because of the twisted nature of [edit]subterranean influences
coming from the hidden/psychotic 12th, where mental illness seems to lurk. Then a transit affects a progressed planet, and boom,
full-blown psychosis.

F, posited in the 7th in conjunction with dominate the masses J, and you can see the head job he would
A in the 7th. I know what the 7th can do; it projects its essential nature onto others.
In this case, his essential nature is tied up with his 12th house crazy-person, which is triggered during the progression of D, a seemingly[edit] the ruler of the 12th,

have been able to pull on people... I havebenign energy until you research it and get away from the Romans and their one-dimensional idealisation of this planet's 'loving' energy.
It's only loving if love hasn't been perverted at the source, and you know how to love.

wow you sound like a psychiatrist here ... got any credentials???

Quote:
Remembering that the Romans were very good at PR, and spreading the one-dimensional word of their Readers Digest condensed beliefs(ideas travel better when they're packaged in simple wrapping, the better to colonise you with, my dear), we do our own research todiscover the darker side of Venus, which is completely capable of manipulating people charismatically and possibly sexually, although I do
not know what Jim Jones got up to sexually. But the implication with the combination of

D-F-J is that here is someone who could

easily manipulate others into doing his will.

OsO, from progressed to natal O, an aspect of extremely high stress, it seems to me; and besides which, how
O inconjuncting itself through progression? Not very often, I suspect. The "magician" planet doing in this man with an
overblown ego (his mother literally thought he was the resurrected messiah, so how's that for a god-complex?). O, when it's out ofcontrol, is not a nice energy to mess with. Talk about ego. Possibly as bad as J, but manifesting in a different way. O would be much
more erratic and overt, but crazy in a way that J could possibly hide better (for awhile).
There's an almost exact
often do you get

Quite guru-like over-all, indeed.

J/K

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #151 - on: 20.04.2011 at 19:21 [UT+1] »On that evil day t.Pluto was opposed Jones' n.Uranus while it squared Jones' own natal Pluto. t. Uranus was
square Jones' n.Mars. t.Neptune was completing a grand trine, EOI using Jones' n.EpO, and t. Node wascompleting a grand trine of AGK using Jones' natal ApG.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #152 - on: 20.04.2011 at 19:27 [UT+1] »The 'progressions' of Nov. 19, 1978 show Jim Jones' natal nearly exact FoO had moved until sa.Jupiterconjuncted n.Neptune and sa.Uranus squared it. sa.Pluto had trined the natal AS.

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astro_246gw_67_jim_jones_adb_19781119.66182.30201.gif(attachment deleted)
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #153 - on: 20.04.2011 at 21:25 [UT+1] »Fauve, were you a guru-wannabe?? A guru in the making?? No 12th house is pure and untainted, it seems tome.
My own 12th house cusp is i, and anyone who knows me (and to know me superficially is to know mewell)knows that my overblown F-ego is my downfall. Plus, if you have the same sign on your 12th as onyour ASC, going by the rules of traditional astrology, you are your own worst enemy. Some call it foot-inmouth disease, but I call it Tourette's.
And then, after the room has cleared due to my i-ian Tourette's, and the person I came to the party is with islooking daggers at me, I'm like, good, now the bar's free.
Too many people at a party mean it's harder to
get to the booze.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #154 - on: 20.04.2011 at 21:44 [UT+1] »"Before enlightenment chop wood carry water
After enlightenment, chop wood carry water"
talk about the bottom line.....amen.
Posts: 17033

Ed- of course.
Yes, of course the apple tree can eat it's own fruit....good catch....lol
BUT....that is not the intention.
The universe provides the apples for eating. (as Joseph Campbell said, "now I'm interpreting God")
It takes the person with the map to the tree to get fed - or----serendipitously bump into the tree.....
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Jupiter's Daughter

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #155 - on: 20.04.2011 at 21:55 [UT+1] »It occurs to me that it's a good thing I gave up acid in the 70's. I'd hate to be tripping while reading thisPosts: 1767
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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #156 - on: 20.04.2011 at 22:45 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 20.04.2011 at 21:25 [UT+1]:
Fauve, were you a guru-wannabe?? A guru in the making?? No 12th house is pure and untainted, it seems to me.
cusp isi, and anyone who knows me (and to know me superficially is to know me well)

My own 12th house

knows that my overblown

F-ego is mydownfall. Plus, if you have the same sign on your 12th as on your ASC, going by the rules of traditional astrology, you are your own worst
enemy. Some call it foot-in-mouth disease, but I call it Tourette's.
And then, after the room has cleared due to my
I'm like, good, now the bar's free.

i-ian Tourette's, and the person I came to the party is with is looking daggers at me,

Too many people at a party mean it's harder to get to the booze.

No I have never been a guru-wannabe: 8th house F doesn’t like being a public asset. But when I wasyounger I was obnoxious. Always knew things better and was constantly lecturing people. We all know the
type…
Embarrassing. Where do you go anyway with the ruler of your rising on the cusp of the 8th: gives aweird crowd. Do think I could make a couple of bucks by becoming a Guru for the Mafia but besides the factthat they will all end up on the Rick Ross forum because I do actually have integrity; they also have guns.
I have Scorpio on the cusp of the 11th as well as on the 12th. House. My O/J conjunction makes a contact
with E ruler of my 4th house: Where BK ends up in rehab with just a one cockroach; I end up at home with anarmy of bugs in front of my door who hate my F- ian, arrogant guts. Did ended up in Indonesia at an martial
arts course once, while I had a situation as mentioned at home to go back to. The teacher went into meditation
about my situation. when he was finished he said: (truly happened) I have never had a student with so muchpractice material as you have…
Wish I had his chart.
« Last Edit: 21.04.2011 at 10:45 [UT+1] by u187002389 »Back to top

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Ms. Miranda

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #157 - on: 20.04.2011 at 23:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Jupiter's Daughter on 20.04.2011 at 17:29 [UT+1]:
I want to be a Guru. Have my own religion, and acolytes who think I know everything.

A septile F, bi-septile J
CqI, pJnB (cradle)
OoI
I have a first house

I 12th, J 9th, F11th O9th
What are my chances?
will I be a good Guru, or a purveyor of kool-aid?

As long as you're not serving grape... I might join.
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MountainMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #158 - on: 21.04.2011 at 03:27 [UT+1] »It seems that Jim Jones only wanted everyone to suicide with him so that no-one could find out the truth about
the cult. When it happened there was some danger of an outsider coming to see what was going down in
JonesTown. And sex? Yes. The early period of the cult revolved around that, and money. If they were young hecould get them to have sex with him (or if male watch him have sex with their girl). If they were old he could
get them to leave all their money to him. This still went on throughout, but of course the cult became rather

Posts: 1039
Gender:large...

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Jupiter's Daughter

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #159 - on: 21.04.2011 at 03:36 [UT+1] »seems to me with Jim Jones and David Koresh, there's objectification of the followers - seeing them as
extensions of the self or as possessions, thus when exposure is threatened, taking everyone with him in bothcases. Very Plutonic
Posts: 1767

Heaven's Gate is different, they all thought they were going to the Mother Ship. (Uranus?)

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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #160 - on: 21.04.2011 at 08:07 [UT+1] »And then, after the room has cleared due to my i -ian Tourette's, and the person I came to the party is withis looking daggers at me, I'm like, good, now the bar's free.

BTS - I like yr style, i-tourettes, bring it on !
Here is the old charmer i himself, Puppetji's brother (guaranteed to outrage!): http://wn.com/osho

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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #161 - on: 21.04.2011 at 10:34 [UT+1] »Jim Jones also had a Saturn/Uranus contact; like Byron Katie and Charles Manson: These people want torenovate existing structures. If it is afflicted they can’t ground the fire which comes with it properly and canbecome true rigid fanatics. Difficult Jupiter/Saturn contacts can be a serious indicator if it comes to manic
depression as well as the megalomania that comes with it. Jupiter rules his 12th house (possible mental illness),
Saturn his first (survival) and Uranus on top of his Moon (emotional security) rules the second house ofphysical security.
However doing what he did IMO is associated with psychopathic tendencies at the core of his personality: The
Chiron, Sun square Mars position indicates to me he was wounded, in building a healthy sense of self as well afully developed strong ego which must have been shattered in a primary stage of his life.
Like Byron Katie he has a North Node into the 3rd house: 3rd house North Nodes have to reconnect on a moredaily superficial level to the more simple sides of life: mentally, emotionally and physically if it comes tocontact, processing information and things like networking; instead of elevating their selves above the situation
to synthesize the picture on a bigger level. Especially in this chart (IMO) if you look at the complete 3rd housesituation as well as the position of the ruler of the North Node.
Ending up into the guru position by being philosophical and looking at things within the bigger picture all thetime; in the end will be their biggest down fall. This man took many people with him: Truly scary.
Added Later: Wow:
The thought to check the degree symbol out on Saturn, ruler of his Ascendantat the 24th degree of Capricorn just crossed my mind. Check this one out... (Scroll down)
http://www.mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Symbols/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%20-%20
Capricorn%2016-30.htm
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Linda Harris
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #162 - on: 21.04.2011 at 14:23 [UT+1] »Talk about 'tripping.' You've got to be indoctrinated and brain washed (and drugged) a long time to even
BELIEVE there's a 'mother ship.'
Ultimately, it's Neptunian, not Uranian.
LainiePosts: 17033

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #163 - on: 21.04.2011 at 16:22 [UT+1] »"Bad Guru" doesn't really say it. Offendor, Menace. At age 82, Prakashanand Saraswati has meditated a million
times and taught others to do so. Though he languored in the trappings of sainthood, he was arrested on 20
counts of sexual indecency. Others who came to his aid forfeited a large fortune when the guru jumped bailand exited to Mexico. Twenty victims claim he is preditor. It is inconceivable that he will repent or regret, andcertainly he, like most of us, will continue his activities if he sees no reason to stop, or if he can deny the
charges.
What are the benefits of Hindu entlightenment, of rigorous meditation, if someone so advanced in his practiceamplifies his preditory nature beyond all bounds? This offensiveness, this menace, this preditory behavior isthe opposite of the disguise worn, guru, saint, holy one, enlightened being.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #164 - on: 21.04.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1] »there is nothing in creation that is offensive to the mind of the creator. let those that are sin free cast the firststone.
i could give many platitudes and there are equal oppositions to counter them and neither would be wrong andfor another matter right. life is such a duality that for anything to exist its opposite must exist as well.
for those that live in their right mind, the picture is clear. those that use the mind that is left will be plagued byfactual nonsense.
peace to all.
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Fauve

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #165 - on: 21.04.2011 at 17:07 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 21.04.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1]:
there is nothing in creation that is offensive to the mind of the creator. let those that are sin free cast the first stone.
i could give many platitudes and there are equal oppositions to counter them and neither would be wrong and for another matter right. life
is such a duality that for anything to exist its opposite must exist as well.
for those that live in their right mind, the picture is clear. those that use the mind that is left will be plagued by factual nonsense.
peace to all.

Within universal laws I agree with you. But as a person living in a world this dual: I am actually glad; proudeven, I still can see the difference.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #166 - on: 21.04.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Fauve on 21.04.2011 at 17:07 [UT+1]:

Within universal laws I agree with you. But as a person living in a world this dual: I am actually glad; proud even, I still can see thedifference.

if you feel that the world has wronged you by giving you a mirror to see the difference and you judge thisdifference as separate from you, then you are not living your full potential. the laws of man are transitory andwill cause separation from what we are capable of being. look around you and say for sure, you know that what
Posts: 3624

you do and cause no offence towards another. we are universal in nature and to separate from this is denial. tobe free is to agree we are bound as in the laws that we are born into.

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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #167 - on: 21.04.2011 at 18:05 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 21.04.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from Fauve on 21.04.2011 at 17:07 [UT+1]:

Within universal laws I agree with you. But as a person living in a world this dual: I am actually glad; proud even, I still
can see the difference.
if you feel that the world has wronged you by giving you a mirror to see the difference and you judge this difference as separate fromyou, then you are not living your full potential. the laws of man are transitory and will cause separation from what we are capable ofbeing. look around you and say for sure, you know that what you do and cause no offence towards another. we are universal in nature andto separate from this is denial. to be free is to agree we are bound as in the laws that we are born into.

BeautifulThanks for the mirror

I must be finally ascending after all.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #168 - on: 21.04.2011 at 18:17 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 21.04.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1]:
there is nothing in creation that is offensive to the mind of the creator. let those that are sin free cast the first stone.
i could give many platitudes and there are equal oppositions to counter them and neither would be wrong and for another matter right. life
is such a duality that for anything to exist its opposite must exist as well.
for those that live in their right mind, the picture is clear. those that use the mind that is left will be plagued by factual nonsense.
peace to all.

Twenty-first century morality is reduced to this, an oddly stained pablum laced with slow-acting poison. I
understand the game, though. If you can remain incoherent, you might avoid getting into trouble. Perhaps
your judgmental friends won't rake you over the coals (and ultimately ostricize you) for being judgemental.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #169 - on: 21.04.2011 at 18:33 [UT+1] »I am reminded of that song by the Eurythmics, Sweet Dreams, in which there is that line:
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused
I've heard say astrologers say that some generations are more prone to being attracted to cults - for example
the Uranus-Neptune square people of the early 1950s - especially if these planets touch personal planets Posts: 2454

would have a conflict between surrendering their ego to the spiritual teaching de jour, or maintaining their
independence.
Also, I suspect that location plays a role. There seem to have been more cults and bad gurus in America thanother continents (although Scientology, for example, has now spread worldwide). I think that this might bebecause cultures in other continents have tighter family structures, with adherence to the ancestral religion.
These New Agey cults and teachings seem to be more of a White - intellectual phenomenon.
If there is a modern guru for our times, it would have to be Richard Dawkins, IMO. He has acted as a catalyst to
prod people into shedding their reliance on all belief systems. No doubt his Jupiter-Saturn-Uranus conjunction
has given him almost avatar status.

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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #170 - on: 21.04.2011 at 18:37 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 21.04.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from Fauve on 21.04.2011 at 17:07 [UT+1]:

Within universal laws I agree with you. But as a person living in a world this dual: I am actually glad; proud even, I still
can see the difference.
if you feel that the world has wronged you by giving you a mirror to see the difference and you judge this difference as separate fromyou, then you are not living your full potential. the laws of man are transitory and will cause separation from what we are capable ofbeing. look around you and say for sure, you know that what you do and cause no offence towards another. we are universal in nature andto separate from this is denial. to be free is to agree we are bound as in the laws that we are born into.

This is a mimickry of enlightenment, a mimickry of wisdom.
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100thMonkey

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #171 - on: 21.04.2011 at 18:54 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 21.04.2011 at 18:33 [UT+1]:
Also, I suspect that location plays a role. There seem to have been more cults and bad gurus in America than other continents (although
Scientology, for example, has now spread worldwide). I think that this might be because cultures in other continents have tighter family
structures, with adherence to the ancestral religion. These New Agey cults and teachings seem to be more of a White - intellectual

Posts: 900

phenomenon.

I always thought it was because when America, the New world was founded, it was also a refuge for alternative
British religions. At a time when going against the religion of the state was a crime of treason
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chang*lingMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #172 - on: 21.04.2011 at 19:47 [UT+1] »dear Stephen, i too can take a hard stance in life, condemning all that does not fit within my framework ofmind, but in the end i would end up a bitter and lonely man only knowing what i allow myself to know.
i do not profess to be enlightened or wise, these are your analogies, although i do seem to be able to discern
the difference between being narrow minded and liberal in viewpoint.
your morality is nothing but fear, based upon what you have learnt through your experience, and although thisis the norm in society, it is as if i should agree with you or face your wrath. there are some people that enjoy
spiders where others would have them exterminated out of existence. if they are here on the planet, they play arole in the ecological system that we are part of, even if some people are fearful of them and only see them as
Posts: 3624

menace.
i will give a simple example of how mans morality is shaped by governing powers laid down by the rule of man
himself.
in Sweden it is not unlawful for a prostitute to openly display that they sell sex for money but unlawful foranybody to buy the service. quite different from the US, im sure, and this one slight bent of man made law
causes a morality shift in consciousness.
i think, therefore i am, or is this part of the mind game that has shaped our belief for far to long.

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Leonis cor

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #173 - on: 21.04.2011 at 20:06 [UT+1] »Beyond the Stars,
Was your initial opening on this thread only to apply to the USA Good Guru, Bad Guru's?
Posts: 812

Or is this about a "world wide human condition?
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #174 - on: 21.04.2011 at 20:14 [UT+1] »Hello, makira

Any old guru, bad or good, anywhere in the world counts.

And the Dalai Lama, too. Spiritual leaders. Jesus. Buddha. Mohammed. If a guru is a spiritual teacher, theneveryone, including my fave turtle, Osho, who sounds like he's fallen asleep, can come on this ride. I remember
watching an Osho video, thinking, god, is he breathing?? and then he spoke again, so i was reassured. This is
why I don't have my own personal guru; I can't wait that long between pauses of thought. I blame myimpatient CmO, which is always thinking and responding too quickly, but gets bored easily and is, as far as i
can tell, guru-proof. Gurus talk so slowly. If they upped their game, I might be able to pay attention better. I
need a drive-through guru.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #175 - on: 21.04.2011 at 20:21 [UT+1] »Quote from makira on 21.04.2011 at 20:06 [UT+1]:
Beyond the Stars,
Was your initial opening on this thread only to apply to the USA Good Guru, Bad Guru's?
Or is this about a "world wide human condition?
MakiraQuote:
Also, I suspect that location plays a role. There seem to have been more cults and bad gurus in America than other continents (although
Scientology, for example, has now spread worldwide). I think that this might be because cultures in other continents have tighter family
structures, with adherence to the ancestral religion. These New Agey cults and teachings seem to be more of a White - intellectual
phenomenon.

I've been speaking primarily about Hindu gurus from India who happen to be nearby in America. Hard to see
how America is invalid in the world, but of course there are many haters.
The atrocities were not caused by Americans, by American drinking water, by American air, or by American
government. According to witnesses, they were the responsibility of a guru from outside America.
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #176 - on: 21.04.2011 at 20:23 [UT+1] »Crocus, catch Osho-turtle on making love spiritually.

It's a hoot.
I know he means well... but.
I find it hard taking advice on love from a bearded turtle.

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Leonis cor

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #177 - on: 21.04.2011 at 20:44 [UT+1] »Thanks BTS,
There was a well known cult in Switzerland called The Solar Temple Order. The leaders of this sect ordered themass murder of members (60 or more), in 1994. Leader Luc Jouret. Astrodatabank
Posts: 812

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jouret%2C_Luc
This man had a heavy emphasis on J (and 8ht house)

J conjunct E (and m G). His J squared DC. His Gm F m SN (over the top authority about religion). The B in i (more emotion regarding religion) is hidden in
the 12 house.
No wonder ADB
names his traits as : Charismatic, etc.. He was a Medical Physician who became a destroyer (J m G his
ruler) rather than a healer.

j asc

Just a little reminder: When including the world on this topic, China has with it's billion + population has
more than a number of cults:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cults_and_governments
And...... India with its billion+ population has the most Cults and Sects.
The USA is not ,with its 380 million population the front runner on this bad Guru expose and cults are notlimited to any particular religion such as Christianity etc..

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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #178 - on: 21.04.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1] »In Spain, the members I have met who are into something a bit "strange" are into Opus Dei.
Wikipedia describes its "strangeness" like this:...Controversies about Opus Dei have centered around criticisms of its alleged secretiveness,[16] its
recruiting methods, the alleged strict rules governing members, the practice by celibate members ofmortification of the flesh,[17] its alleged elitism and misogyny, the alleged right-leaning politics ofmost of its members, and the alleged participation by some in authoritarian or extreme right-wing
governments, especially the Francoist Government of Spain until 1978...
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #179 - on: 21.04.2011 at 21:29 [UT+1] »Remember Heaven's Gate, the cult who committed suicide in the belief they would join together on a
spaceship? The leader was Marshall Applewhite. Here is his chart.
Like Jim Jones, he has ApG and CpI. As Jim Jones had CAS I, Applewhite had CMC I grand trines.

Jim Jones was born May 13 the same year!! Four days apart!! Two suicide cults.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #180 - on: 21.04.2011 at 21:40 [UT+1] »Here is David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas who amassed military weapons until thegovernment came snooping around. Koresh was said to be deluded.

CnBoI T-square
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #181 - on: 21.04.2011 at 21:51 [UT+1] »Bhagwan Rajneesh started a commune in America having 1,700 members. There was rampant sex and murderplots.
From Astrodatabank:"Difficulties accumulated with not only the local citizens but with the National Immigration Service and Revenue
Service and Rajneesh was arrested as he fled his strife-torn utopia on 10/28/1985 to the tune on 35 counts ofconspiracy and fraud, indicted by a Grand Jury in Oregon.
On his return to India, he changed his name to Osho to signal a change in his consciousness. Less than five
years later he died of heart failure at his Ashram in Poona, India, 1/19/1990. "Born the same year as Jones and Applewhite, the JnG is very close.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #182 - on: 21.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1] »Luc Jouret started a Belgian-Canadian cult ostensibly Christian that turned out to be Neo-Nazi. Allegedly they
executed a child in 1994 believed to be the antichrist.

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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #183 - on: 21.04.2011 at 22:55 [UT+1] »Gurus talk so slowly. If they upped their game, I might be able to pay attention better. I need a drive-throughguru.

I wonder if the slow speech thing is just a hypnosis trick sometimes.....I mean if Ur susceptible to falling in withthe slow speaking and deep gazing thing it can take you down into a brainwave state of deep
relaxation......which then has a knock-on effect on chemicals in the body which rush around and hit the
feelgood buttons.....
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #184 - on: 21.04.2011 at 22:59 [UT+1] »Quote from makira on 21.04.2011 at 20:44 [UT+1]:
The USA is not ,with its 380 million population the front runner on this bad Guru expose and cults are not limited to any particular religion
such as Christianity etc..
MakiraTrue, but I did say New Agey cults.
Posts: 2454

With religion it's a battle ground. In Christianity, I've heard Protestants call Catholics a cult, and of course
Catholics don't like Freemasons, who they think are a cult. In Judaism the orthodox synagogue think the Liberal
synagogue is, well, too liberal, and they think that kabala is evil. And with Islam, the different factions don't getalong very well. And they all don't like astrologers.
As the Eurythics' song says, some people seem to need to experience this "abuse" or control, presumably inorder to learn from it. Once bitten, twice shy. That's why it's dangerous for young people because they don't
yet have the insight and maturity to see what's going on, especially when they are transitioning from youth toadult and leaving home, around 18-22 (Saturn and Uranus squares).
I do think that America has been home to more of the alternative/New Age groups, but am willing to be provenwrong. For one thing, we were founded by Freemasons and have an all-seeing eye on the dollar bill. I don't
know if anyone would count Freemasonry as a cult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonryand I'm not sure who founded it, but some people the Count of St. Germain, in one of his alleged incarnations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Saint_Germain

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Leonis cor

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #185 - on: 21.04.2011 at 23:14 [UT+1] »Regarding David Koresh:
I know the parents of two of the women who died with DK in Waco. These two ladies were the only children of
this couple, and it is believed that perhaps one of the daughters had a child or children by DK and the children
Posts: 812

also perished.
BTW: no one is being singled out as a pro-vs con, just hope to keep on topic without singling out any
countries or religions in particular. It really comes down to being "earthlings , sometimes called "humans" in
one speck of the universe and how we interact with all other "earthlings and humans".

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Mikey
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #186 - on: 22.04.2011 at 02:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
Luc Jouret started a Belgian-Canadian cult ostensibly Christian that turned out to be Neo-Nazi. Allegedly they executed a child in 1994
believed to be the antichrist.

Midpoint GE=J in 8th
Posts: 131
Gender:Stephen i know you once wrote something short about this one, it was in a thread about suicides i think.
Could anything positive be said about this midpoint picture? Keywords that come to mind are ruthless, violent,action, dealings with law and of course extremism. And in this chart we have a square to h Mercury in 11th.
Obviously someone capable of manipulating large groups of people. All the keywords including (group) suicide"manifested"!
Scary, since I have a similar midpoint with Ei7th=G/J and E=O/J which is not so exact and nothing is
conjunct.
Ain't nothing extreme about me, perhaps that's the vibe i give off?
Among others, i see Luc was a homepath. One positive thing at least...

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #187 - on: 22.04.2011 at 09:36 [UT+1] »Byron Katie's T- square in action: BmE in h into the 5th, In n with OmG in c into the 12th. bothmaking a o to her NmK into the 3rd in e
Byron Katie from her book:Losing the Moon. Quote:
If Someone (God, "what is"), pulls my baby from me - if that's what it takes, I'm there. Take the baby. Tear mybaby from me. Throw it in the fire....My discomfort is my war with God....
You see, there are NO choices. What is, is....
But when we get to the baby thing, we're getting down to our sacred little concepts now....You take my baby
from me, you're messing with the illusion of I'm the mommy, this is the baby, there's the daddy...
But tearing the baby away- that's the higher. That's the higher, because it snatches your story from you andmakes it apparent in your face - nothing's real short of reality....
That's it. That's what is. That's love. That's absolutely Un-describable love. That you, God, would even give methat.
Can you know that Hitler didn't bring more people to realization than Jesus? On your knees - God. God! God!
But our stories of reality keep us from the awareness of God is Everything. And God is Good. [...]
There has never been evil and there never will be. Evil is simply a story about what's not...
But I have trashed the baby when I have trashed the Nazi... I am the baby going into the pit. I am the one
throwing the baby in the pit..." Unquote from "Losing the Moon"
You can read the complete discussion here. It starts right at the top of the page:
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,59147
Here is one of the comments made by a person who indeed is judging her...
Quote:
Byron Katie literally says its the hand of her "God" literally creating child-rape, and the Nazi mass murder ofJewish babies by being burned alive in firepits at a train station at the end of WWII.
(So the orders of Hitler at the end of the war to murder those children, according to Byron Katie, are literally
the work of the "God" of Byron Katie. Its right there in the text...which is why the text has been suppressed).
The material in "Losing The Moon" was pulled from the market and suppressed to save those type of extreme
beliefs for deep initiates only. She changed to the "Bait and Switch" method.
They serve a similar purpose to the "lighter" Byron Katie metaphors like being robbed by gun and enjoying it.
Byron Katie does not believe that for herself, its only for you.
This is all a type of dark, twisted deep persuasion of the highest order.
Its meant to be close to the final step, where she sweeps away your entire sense of reality and identity, andreplaces it with her own.
Just reading the book "Losing The Moon" will put you flat on your back, it will knock you out, which was clearly
its intent. That is why they pulled it off the market. They probably deliver the same material now only in more"advanced" seminars, and don't write it down so they can't get in trouble.
But the intent is clear, its meant to be close to the last step in the process, where Byron Katie takes over, by
sweeping away even your most cherished beliefs. Knowing most of her followers are women, she aims to evensweep away the instinct for motherhood, to destabilize your entire identity and personality, so then you only
have Byron Katie left to grasp onto.
The text in that book actually needs to be reported to antisemitism authorities and Holocaust Denial andgenocide reporters. Unquote
Like I said in one of my previous posts on this thread: "We can actully leave throwing out the baby with thebathwater all up to Byron Katie..."For those who it may concern: you can find her chart on page 5 of thisthread, post 81.
If it comes to good guru's I am actually hoping Mother Theresa still checks out...
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IP LoggedStefanEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #188 - on: 22.04.2011 at 10:14 [UT+1] »I guess this link can give some thoughts which can be thougtful.
http://www.om-guru.com/html/saints/choosinggurus.html
Among this is the fact that true Guru's of the highest caliber is quite rare
phenomena.
Another is that some Guru's is more benficial as intitators and start igniting than to perhaps follow
as in some Crazy wisdom teachers that can be wild but anyway have transformational touch of somekind.
Osho for example is a teacher I would not like to be in his ashram and follow him, but I think he can anyhow
have things to give in sense of his teachings.
Many great therapeuts, writers and other people have had positive developments of being exposed to
his teachings.
The same might be said about the Buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa a teacher in the crazy wisdom lineage.
Drinking alcohol and wild in general living totally untraditional, sometimes up for 48 hours then sleeping 48
hours
Today he is regarded as have had a major influence of the whole of Americas Bhuddist community. As I
understand it.
As his teachings always clear and having great knowledge.
The whole question may be more complex than the black and white interpretation of the rational mind judging
right and wrong.
Tantric teachers go often in contrary ways from the societal standards.
Not defending bad behaviour here, and not arguing which one is a true guru or not.
Some are fakes obviously, but it's not always so easy to tell. Especially for westerners as above article shows.
Testing of Guru is necessary.
Nityananda was a highly regarded saint living in India reagarded as one of the greatest guru's in modern times,a bit tantric who helped millions before he died at 1961.
Sometimes he could go into shops and steal and doing things not easily explained. The shopowners always
welcomed it as they knew that sales would
invevitable go up afterwards. he lived in a tree for years and seldom spoke.
But he was loved because of his healing powers and giving peace by his mere prescence.
http://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.qiwithoutborders.org/nityananda_gu
ru2_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.qiwithoutborders.org/bhagawan_nityananda.html&h=302&w=24
YpfvVQLKDTdJZPo=&sa=X&ei=eEWxTe75JITesgbSheT2Cw&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBg

Jesus was killed by his society at his time.
(No other comparisons beteen him and other guys mentioned here)

Anyway this is an american based Guru of high standard both ethically and spiritually in my opinion.
Shree Maa and her companion Swami Satyananda.
http://www.shreemaa.org/drupal/?q=taxonomy_menu/46/59

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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #189 - on: 22.04.2011 at 10:30 [UT+1] »“ When you buy into something that seems to explain everything, you can soon be coaxed into doing almost
anything”—Marc Sageman
i think this explains the phenomena well, even western science can be seen as the "guru"

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IP LoggedFauveEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #190 - on: 22.04.2011 at 11:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Stefan on 22.04.2011 at 10:14 [UT+1]:

The same might be said about the Buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa a teacher in the crazy wisdom lineage.
Drinking alcohol and wild in general living totally untraditional, sometimes up for 48 hours then sleeping 48 hours
Today he is regarded as have had a major influence of the whole of Americas Bhuddist community. As I understand it.
As his teachings always clear and having great knowledge.
The whole question may be more complex than the black and white interpretation of the rational mind judging right and wrong.
Tantric teachers go often in contrary ways from the societal standards.
Not defending bad behaviour here, and not arguing which one is a true guru or not.
Some are fakes obviously, but it's not always so easy to tell. Especially for westerners as above article shows.
Testing of Guru is necessary.

Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism (((((mate-realism))))) by Chogyam Trungpa is my all time favourite
book if it comes to spirituality. Together with Crazy Wisdom also written by him. Not because I’ve ever been afollower of him but because when I found the books it totally resonated with the spiritual views and roots I
myself was living by. Coming up from within.
However if Trungpa wants to drink himself to death, which he did BTW, I don’t have a problem with it: He’s isfree to make his own personal choices IMO whatever they may be. But I do personally feel sleeping with yourstudents on a regular base is tacky; and it is a turn off to me. ( Must be my fB into the 9th) I also
dislike the fact that he actually caused harm to others by stripping them of their free choices after they’ve set
their boundaries quite clearly. You can all read about it in Stripping the Guru’s here…
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.asp
I personally just don’t like it when people perform an act like that and call it Crazy Wisdom. But still do love hisbooks.
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IP LoggedMyrios

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #191 - on: 22.04.2011 at 14:47 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 21.04.2011 at 18:33 [UT+1]:
I am reminded of that song by the Eurythmics, Sweet Dreams, in which there is that line:
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused
I've heard say astrologers say that some generations are more prone to being attracted to cults - for example the Uranus-Neptune squarepeople of the early 1950s - especially if these planets touch personal planets - would have a conflict between surrendering theirego to the spiritual teaching de jour, or maintaining their independence.
Also, I suspect that location plays a role. There seem to have been more cults and bad gurus in America than other continents (although
Scientology, for example, has now spread worldwide). I think that this might be because cultures in other continents have tighter family
structures, with adherence to the ancestral religion. These New Agey cults and teachings seem to be more of a White - intellectual
phenomenon.
If there is a modern guru for our times, it would have to be Richard Dawkins, IMO. He has acted as a catalyst to prod people into

shedding their reliance on all belief systems. No doubt his Jupiter-Saturn-Uranus conjunction has given him almost
avatar status.

'some of them want to use yousome of them want to be used by you'
American Annie Lenox lyrics - she should be a guru
Here's some of her other song lyrics which speak to 'surrendering' or 'needing' ... a 'guru-lover'

One more time for the womankind ooh baby's got precious eyes
and when he smiles the sun comes shinin'
to make the day seem like each cloud contains a silver linin'
I would be so happy
if he belonged with me forever
but I know its not to be
its not part of my destination
I wish I had a lover who could turn this water into wine
I wish I had a lover who could give me love at any timewish I had so many things
and all my wishes would come true
its got me thinkin' that I want to get too close to you
hear my prayer
I'm tired of waitin'hear my prayer
give it a chancehear my prayer
I'm clearly statin'
I need to change the circumstanceyou could be the best damn thingthat hasn't happened yet to me
you could be the best thing
to come into my mythology
we could have the kinda dream they call a great affinity
I want to turn it into something like reality
hold me now
I'm tired of waitin'hold me now I'm askin' you
hold me now
no more anticipatin'
why won't you come to my rescue?

Ooh baby's got precious eyes
and when he smiles
the sun comes blastin'
I wish that feelin' of contentment
Would be everlasting
I would be so happy
to give him all my dedication
I would be so happy
But its only my imagination..
ooh this is for the womankind ...
how many doors must I go through?
these constant dreams that I pursue
I can see possibilities in you

is this too good to be true?
.........
As for Dawkins -- prodding people into shedding all their belief systems -- Ahem ....that is, except the belief in
the CULT of SCIENCE
All he is doing is brainwashing people into his own CULT and its not a difficult job
today ... as this NEW GENERATION has had its thoughts pre-tuned into Sci-Fi by the Magic of Media into
this 'godless' new 'worship'.

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IP Logged~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #192 - on: 22.04.2011 at 16:04 [UT+1] »I have a guru and what he gave me - the knowledge - totally free of charge, by the way - is the best thing thatI never had in my whole life.
I met him when I was 19 y.o. or may be even 18.
This knowledge given by such a "guru" is not taught in the schools or colleges.
... and it's all about an inner experience.
The rest is of no-interest.
... But I know that there is plenty of "guru" ...
Once you tasted the inner experience offered by a true master, your whole life is transformed...
... this is a gift which is given by a living master, because I am sure that you can not get it in a book, even if
the book says : "do this or that"
A true master reveals you what is inside of you and that you can not even suspect to be... his guidance is of themost necessary and nor my mother neither my father have been able to show me what my master has shownme, what resides already in me.
I was totally ignorant, lost in the mist of "outside world" and in the all the existing beliefs. I was lost... andconscious to be lost... I was in need of guidance, and conscious that something were missing in my life.
A true guru, a true master is the one who is able to drive you to yourself, the one who opens the door to yourinner world (not your dreams...). That is exactely the contrary that is done by the teachers of the outer world..
who give you many kind of knowledges... There are knowledges that do not lead us anywhere, really.
Political guru, financial guru, there are millions of guru all around us...
We really must choose the one who can truly help us on the path of the life, which is in fact something on
which we don't have a lot of informations.
A true master reveals a purpose to your life... Something on which we can rely... because that is real... that issomething that is not a theory... or an idea.. or a speech.
... then slowly, your perspective may be completely changed, because your life has a new dimension... the innerdimension, not only what you have with your four senses for knowing the world, but you are in touch with asource inside of you... that makes you alive, that keeps you alive. Of course, we need water and food for the
body, but there are other needs... and there is a fondamental need that we can't deny.
There are so many theories... a real guru does not feed you with any theories... . He puts you directly incontact with the higher vibration that is already there, waiting to be discovered, in you and the light that isthere too... the real light that is shinning inside of each one of us, like the sun shines outside.
That is the precious gift that I got from my master. Practice is the key, you don't practice, you forget ... andyou fall again in the troubles of the wordly ocean, in everything else.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #193 - on: 22.04.2011 at 16:32 [UT+1] »http://permaculture.org.au/2011/02/09/cognitive-dissonance-and-non-adaptive-arch itectureseven-tactics-for-denying-the-truth/
here is an interesting read.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #194 - on: 22.04.2011 at 16:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Mikey on 22.04.2011 at 02:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.04.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
Luc Jouret started a Belgian-Canadian cult ostensibly Christian that turned out to be Neo-Nazi. Allegedly they executed achild in 1994 believed to be the antichrist.

Midpoint

GE=J in 8th

Stephen i know you once wrote something short about this one, it was in a thread about suicides i think.
Could anything positive be said about this midpoint picture? Keywords that come to mind are ruthless, violent, action, dealings with law

hand of course extremism. And in this chart we have a square to
Mercury in 11th. Obviously someone capable of manipulating large
groups of people. All the keywords including (group) suicide "manifested"!
Scary, since I have a similar midpoint with

Ei7th=G/J and E=O/J which is not so exact and nothing is conjunct.

Ain't nothing extreme about me, perhaps that's the vibe i give off?
Among others, i see Luc was a homepath. One positive thing at least...

Martin Seymour-Smith said about Pluto that it often signified "religiosity", and about Pluto-Saturn that it often
signified "savage puritanism". I say, it often signifies religion gone bad. MSS also said that Pluto-Saturnaspects are "saintliness/criminality"--that they may be either very good or very bad. Pluto-Saturn is often at
the root of the cruelty of the hardest crimes.
My research into murder shows that EOJ and EGJ are common signatures; as always, this does notsuggest that all those with the signature are murderers, they might be soldiers, atheletes, occultists, orengineers instead. (Sometimes EJ alone with emphasis like, AEJ or AS EJ or EMC J).
The signature for murder seems also to be common to suicide as well.
Pluto-Saturn is very common in occultists ("low occultism/great knowledge of the strange") including fringe
religions. I think EGJ is pretty common in occult practitioners and researchers without the connection toeither murder or suicide.
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Pistacia

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #195 - on: 22.04.2011 at 17:00 [UT+1] »I find Stephen's research interesting.
Having natal JmG in 3rd and knowing many of my age who also has this conjunction on different houses,
most of them just belong to the church to have a church wedding, but their personal beliefs are not the samewith organized religion. Most of them could be categorized as agnostics, but there's a few atheists, one
buddhist or similar minded people. No murderers (that i know of).
Posts: 2187
Gender:I've shared a house and lived with a Christian, Orthodox, Atheist, Jehova's witness and a Buddhist (different
ages)Love them all - iFmO & I in 4th p D 9th.
I have tough time put my beliefs in a box, but yes, i find that some of the occult fascinates me.

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crocusEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #196 - on: 22.04.2011 at 17:28 [UT+1] »Sweetly said Jade - thanks for your input.....

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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #197 - on: 22.04.2011 at 18:45 [UT+1] »Well: what can I say besides with special gratitude to Chogyam Trungpa and the entire Karma Kagyu lineage…?
I’ll rest my case for now…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4t5R3fTbD0
But please do listen to the lyrics.
L. Boogie
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IP LoggedMyrios
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #198 - on: 22.04.2011 at 18:56 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 22.04.2011 at 16:32 [UT+1]:
http://permaculture.org.au/2011/02/09/cognitive-dissonance-and-non-adaptive-arch itecture-seven-tactics-for-denyingthe-truth/
here is an interesting read.

Mind-boggling to read...overwhelmingly too much information. Apart from the meaning and relevance of'architecture' in our lives ... which few stop to ponder in its real masonic importance, but certainly well worth
reading from many different perspectives.
Couldn't help seeing the Cult of "America" ... does that make the Pres a Guru ... the U.S. enshrined as it is in its
D.C. "Cap-it-All" symbolism encoded in a Masonic D.C. Pentagonal (magic symbol) aligned with Spica/Virgo andall that ... a Pyramid System...a Dollar Bill Mon-eyed Cult -- Am Way All The Way. From the link:
Conclusion
One of the immediate dimensions of the global crisis, which is complicated by the inertia of a group mentality,
is a reluctance to let go of the industrial model of consumption and its allied design ideology. The material
expectations of our modern society — coupled with the continued desire for new, supposedly better products —aggressively waste energy and natural resources. Designing on the basis of substantive quality rather thanquantitative measure could have a positive effect on our environment. Two conditions keep this process frommoving forward, however: (i) the unshaken belief in the industrial model to solve the problems it has itself
created; and (ii) the methods of practice, reliance upon misinformation, and controlling interest of today’sarchitectural community. Even if the desires of the world’s citizens were to become more realistic, there is still
the effect of contemporary design thinking that would need to be overcome.
While the primary interest here lies with contemporary architecture and urbanism, the mechanisms formaintaining irrational beliefs are universally applicable. This paper reviewed the strategy — hereclassified as seven tactics for denying the truth — which people habitually employ to maintain theirfalse beliefs against evidence that refutes them. Individuals holding a worldview founded uponmisinformation occasionally come to an enlightening breakthrough all by themselves, and then theyturn to the available sources of true information to enrich their knowledge base. The literature
reveals only little direct success in converting someone who has been following groupthink,however. This pessimistic assessment is borne out by professional psychologists who deprogram
members of dangerous cults, where unfortunately a very small percentage of former followers are
ever successful in resuming normal life.

um... what is normal?

A little investigation reveals why the situation in architecture is so terribly polarized. Currently,
architects go through an educational system that instills conformity to ideology, and which trains
young architects in a way of thinking that accepts no revision of certain pre-formed beliefs about
their discipline. The professional milieu is no better, as it continues to operate on the basis of neverquestioning a body of dogma (the “canons” of modernist architecture and urbanism, which are only
a century old). Any non-architect can readily verify these conditions by attempting to debatearchitects about the soundness of their fundamental core beliefs. Since our built environment andthe sustainability of our world depend upon constructing buildings and cities according to scientificknowledge that revises prejudices, this narrowness of thought poses a serious obstacle to progress.

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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #199 - on: 22.04.2011 at 19:25 [UT+1] »Thanks for the correction to the Annie Lennox lyrics Myrios. Yes, her lyrics do touch some deep principles, as do
the lyrics of a lot of contemporary songwriters. I think that Chiron can be co-related to this grasp of naturallaws, which we sometimes only realize through some sort of wound. From memory, Lennox has Chiron in
Capricorn, square Neptune and opposite Jupiter and Uranus.

Posts: 2454

Bob Dylan has written some amazing guru-like songs, but on the other hand, some of this songs seem very
petty and personal to me - like he's angry with an old girl friend (who cares?). One of his best periods, IMO,
was his "born again" period in the 1970s; there's a line from Slow Train Coming which I've always foundpoignant:"there's illusion in a vision
follow your own ambition".
Quote from Myrios on 22.04.2011 at 14:47 [UT+1]:
As for Dawkins -- prodding people into shedding all their belief systems -- Ahem ....that is, except the belief in the CULT of SCIENCE
All he is doing is brainwashing people into his own CULT and its not a difficult job today ... as this NEW GENERATION has had its thoughts
pre-tuned into Sci-Fi by the Magic of Media into this 'godless' new 'worship'.
MyriosNo surprise that this raises some eyebrows. The point however, is that empirical scientists stress that science, ormore accurately, "the scientific method" is not a cult, or a belief, or a dogma or a faith. They do not say that itis the only method of approaching truth, but they do say that it is the only one that is universal, testable,
humble and guru-free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLctxRf7duU(this is a 12 part series of conversations between Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss - sorry I can't remember whichpart stresses the definition of the scientific method, of whether in fact it is in this video set at all, but it's a very
entertaining set if anyone is interested).
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #200 - on: 22.04.2011 at 19:34 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 22.04.2011 at 19:25 [UT+1]:
Thanks for the correction to the Annie Lennox lyrics Myrios. Yes, her lyrics do touch some deep principles, as do the lyrics of a lot ofcontemporary songwriters. I think that Chiron can be co-related to this grasp of natural laws, which we sometimes only realize throughsome sort of wound. From memory, Lennox has Chiron in Capricorn, square Neptune and opposite Jupiter and Uranus.
Bob Dylan has written some amazing guru-like songs, but on the other hand, some of this songs seem very petty and personal to me like he's angry with an old girl friend (who cares?). One of his best periods, IMO, was his "born again" period in the 1970s; there's a linefrom Slow Train Coming which I've always found poignant:"there's illusion in a vision
follow your own ambition".
Quote from Myrios on 22.04.2011 at 14:47 [UT+1]:
As for Dawkins -- prodding people into shedding all their belief systems -- Ahem ....that is, except the belief in the CULTof SCIENCE

All he is doing is brainwashing people into his own CULT and its not a difficult job today ... as this NEW

GENERATION has had its thoughts pre-tuned into Sci-Fi by the Magic of Media into this 'godless' new 'worship'.
MyriosNo surprise that this raises some eyebrows. The point however, is that empirical scientists stress that science, or more accurately, "thescientific method" is not a cult, or a belief, or a dogma or a faith. They do not say that it is the only method of approaching truth, butthey do say that it is the only one that is universal, testable, humble and guru-free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLctxRf7duU(this is a 12 part series of conversations between Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss - sorry I can't remember which part stresses the definitionof the scientific method, of whether in fact it is in this video set at all, but it's a very entertaining set if anyone is interested).

The scientific method is a worthy ideal, but it is missed often by the scientists who champion it. I'll give justone example (there are thousands). Carl Sagan was asked once if there was any validity to astrology. He
answered, "I can't believe that there are only twelve types of people in the world."
In his statement he revealed his ignorance of astrology. He assumed that bogus pop astrology, Sun Sign
astrology, was astrology. He didn't know better. But the scientific method insists that if you do not know
better, you should be quiet or admit that your opinion is nearly worthless. He, like most scientists, wasarrogant and egotistical about his opinion.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #201 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:10 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 22.04.2011 at 19:25 [UT+1]:...
No surprise that this raises some eyebrows. The point however, is that empirical scientists stress that science, or more accurately, "thescientific method" is not a cult, or a belief, or a dogma or a faith. They do not say that it is the only method of approaching truth, butthey do say that it is the only one that is universal, testable, humble and guru-free....

Actually, that sounds exactly like a description of the method of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha.
Dawkins' positions on the non-scientific dimensions of life and experience are, on the other hand, redolent of
Scientism.
- Ed
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #202 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.04.2011 at 19:34 [UT+1]:

The scientific method is a worthy ideal, but it is missed often by the scientists who champion it. I'll give just one example (there arethousands). Carl Sagan was asked once if there was any validity to astrology. He answered, "I can't believe that there are only twelve
types of people in the world."
In his statement he revealed his ignorance of astrology. He assumed that bogus pop astrology, Sun Sign astrology, was astrology. He
didn't know better. But the scientific method insists that if you do not know better, you should be quiet or admit that your opinion is nearly
worthless. He, like most scientists, was arrogant and egotistical about his opinion.

Posts: 2454

Stephen: Sagan said this about Sun signs back in the 1970s (or 80s?) I think. He also criticized other aspectsof astrology besides Sun signs, for example in this video, he talks about Jupiter, Saturn and Mars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA
You cannot blame Sagan for saying what he did at that time, because he was working with the available
information. If he had taken time out from his job as an astronomer to read the latest astrology books, I still
think he would have come to the same conclusions: it was astrologers who were the ones who were arrogant
and egotistical for espousing a belief system with no scientific basis. Astrologers still have no causal
mechanism for astrology, so we are still being arrogant and egotistical. We are all acting like gurus, even on thisforum, although I don't think anyone minds that we share what we know between ourselves. It's when weleave this "astrology bubble" that our mettle is tested.
Just look at what happened recently with the 13 sign misunderstanding. How can we expect the general public
to have any idea why astrology might "work" - which I think needs many years of study of subjects such as
astronomy, biology, chemistry, astro-physics, quantum mechanics, Jungian psychology, history of religion,
paganism and mathematics, when the average member of the public is not sure whether the earth goes roundthe sun or not?
On the James Randi Educational Forum, there are actually quite a few people trying to find a scientificexplanation of how astrology seems to work subjectively, using objective evidence or rationality, not beliefs
from the gurus of the Piscean age. We have come a long way since the 1970s.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #203 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:27 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 22.04.2011 at 20:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.04.2011 at 19:34 [UT+1]:

The scientific method is a worthy ideal, but it is missed often by the scientists who champion it. I'll give just one example(there are thousands). Carl Sagan was asked once if there was any validity to astrology. He answered, "I can't believethat there are only twelve types of people in the world."
In his statement he revealed his ignorance of astrology. He assumed that bogus pop astrology, Sun Sign astrology, wasastrology. He didn't know better. But the scientific method insists that if you do not know better, you should be quiet or
admit that your opinion is nearly worthless. He, like most scientists, was arrogant and egotistical about his opinion.

Stephen: Sagan said this about Sun signs back in the 1970s (or 80s?) I think. He also criticized other aspects of astrology besides Sun
signs, for example in this video, he talks about Jupiter, Saturn and Mars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA
You cannot blame Sagan for saying what he did at that time, because he was working with the available information. If he had taken timeout from his job as an astronomer to read the latest astrology books, I still think he would have come to the same conclusions: it was
astrologers who were the ones who were arrogant and egotistical for espousing a belief system with no scientific basis. Astrologers still
have no causal mechanism for astrology, so we are still being arrogant and egotistical. We are all acting like gurus, even on this forum,
although I don't think anyone minds that we share what we know between ourselves. It's when we leave this "astrology bubble" that ourmettle is tested.
Just look at what happened recently with the 13 sign misunderstanding. How can we expect the general public to have any idea why
astrology might "work" - which I think needs many years of study of subjects such as astronomy, biology, chemistry, astro-physics,
quantum mechanics, Jungian psychology, history of religion, paganism and mathematics, when the average member of the public is not
sure whether the earth goes round the sun or not?
On the James Randi Educational Forum, there are actually quite a few people trying to find a scientific explanation of how astrology seems
to work subjectively, using objective evidence or rationality, not beliefs from the gurus of the Piscean age. We have come a long way
since the 1970s.

You make every excuse for the scientists who were brutal and remain brutal in their criticism of everything
about which they disapprove. Ridicule is a common ploy in the expression of their 'professional' opinions.
As long as they are thus in the exercise of science, I will continue to hold them to a high standard, theirs.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #204 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:42 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 22.04.2011 at 20:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.04.2011 at 19:34 [UT+1]:

The scientific method is a worthy ideal, but it is missed often by the scientists who champion it. I'll give just one example(there are thousands). Carl Sagan was asked once if there was any validity to astrology. He answered, "I can't believethat there are only twelve types of people in the world."
In his statement he revealed his ignorance of astrology. He assumed that bogus pop astrology, Sun Sign astrology, wasastrology. He didn't know better. But the scientific method insists that if you do not know better, you should be quiet or
admit that your opinion is nearly worthless. He, like most scientists, was arrogant and egotistical about his opinion.

Stephen: Sagan said this about Sun signs back in the 1970s (or 80s?) I think. He also criticized other aspects of astrology besides Sun
signs, for example in this video, he talks about Jupiter, Saturn and Mars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA
You cannot blame Sagan for saying what he did at that time, because he was working with the available information. If he had taken timeout from his job as an astronomer to read the latest astrology books, I still think he would have come to the same conclusions: it was
astrologers who were the ones who were arrogant and egotistical for espousing a belief system with no scientific basis. Astrologers still
have no causal mechanism for astrology, so we are still being arrogant and egotistical. We are all acting like gurus, even on this forum,
although I don't think anyone minds that we share what we know between ourselves. It's when we leave this "astrology bubble" that ourmettle is tested.
Just look at what happened recently with the 13 sign misunderstanding. How can we expect the general public to have any idea why
astrology might "work" - which I think needs many years of study of subjects such as astronomy, biology, chemistry, astro-physics,
quantum mechanics, Jungian psychology, history of religion, paganism and mathematics, when the average member of the public is not
sure whether the earth goes round the sun or not?
On the James Randi Educational Forum, there are actually quite a few people trying to find a scientific explanation of how astrology seems
to work subjectively, using objective evidence or rationality, not beliefs from the gurus of the Piscean age. We have come a long way
since the 1970s.

Fundamental to science because it is fundamental to knowledge is you can't know if you have not studied.
When Sagan made his glib comment, Gauquelin was the only scientist who bothered to study that which wascondemned. Condemnation prior to investigation is inexcusable. It is a witch hunt in essence. You do not
excuse only those with fame or prestige. It is inexcusable.
Halley chided Newton for his interest in astrology; said Newton, "Sir, I have studied the matter; you have not."
It is rudimentary. It is inexcusable to show such a school-boy belligerence.
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Apostrophe

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #205 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 22.04.2011 at 20:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from realworld on 22.04.2011 at 19:25 [UT+1]:...
No surprise that this raises some eyebrows. The point however, is that empirical scientists stress that science, or moreaccurately, "the scientific method" is not a cult, or a belief, or a dogma or a faith. They do not say that it is the only
method of approaching truth, but they do say that it is the only one that is universal, testable, humble and guru-free....

Actually, that sounds exactly like a description of the method of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha.

Posts: 2454

But doesn't even Buddhism have some "rules" about human conduct, espoused by either Siddhartha himself ormodern mouth pieces like the Dalai Lama? For example, I remember a few years ago there was a bit of an
outcry from homosexuals in San Francisco when the red-robed guru visited. Some forms of homosexual
practice are apparently seen as not conducive to good health, and therefore not within the bounds of the 8pillars of Buddhism.
On the other hand, Dawkins' philosophy is that literally anything goes. Personally, I don't agree with this sideof Dawkins' otherwise un-guru like philosophy.
Quote:
Dawkins' positions on the non-scientific dimensions of life and experience are, on the other hand, redolent of Scientism.
- Ed

When scientists like Dawkins hint at moral conduct, or lack of it, I agree that the philosophy of the scientificmethod has turned into another cult. The wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
actually classifies Scietism as a pejorative term used by philosophers of science.
But even if we call it Scientism, it's still an objective, and rather individualistic approach to the world therefore astrologically Aquarian, not a subjective belief absorbed from a guru, which is more Piscean. To quote
Dawkins - "...trying to get scientists (I think the actual word he used was Skeptics) to join anything is liketrying to herd cats".
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #206 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:51 [UT+1] »A scientist is a practitioner of scientism.

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Ed Falis

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #207 - on: 22.04.2011 at 20:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.04.2011 at 20:51 [UT+1]:
A scientist is a practitioner of scientism.

Not sure I'd go that far, but it is pretty common.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #208 - on: 22.04.2011 at 21:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.04.2011 at 20:51 [UT+1]:
A scientist is a practitioner of scientism.

That would be like saying a Christian or a Muslim is a practitioner of fundamentalism. Common enough, but
not identical.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #209 - on: 22.04.2011 at 21:18 [UT+1] »Time to define the difference between scientism and science. I suspect many scientist never have even given it
the slightest thought.

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100thMonkey
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #210 - on: 22.04.2011 at 22:31 [UT+1] »Skepticism does actually open up a world of possibilities.
Ie - How can you believe it to be so..?
How can you believe it not to be so ?

Posts: 900

Quote:
One of the main obstacles to freeing the mind from its shackles of belief is the desire for certainty. Give up this desire and it is possible
to explore the universe with an open mind. .... Belief is a choice, and a choice that rules out alternative views and ways of thinking.
Possessing too many beliefs prevents people from thinking outside the box, and it is just this sort of thinking that skepticism encourages.
http://blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=537

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MyriosEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #211 - on: 22.04.2011 at 22:41 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 22.04.2011 at 19:25 [UT+1]:
Thanks for the correction to the Annie Lennox lyrics Myrios. Yes, her lyrics do touch some deep principles, as do the lyrics of a lot ofcontemporary songwriters. I think that Chiron can be co-related to this grasp of natural laws, which we sometimes only realize throughsome sort of wound. From memory, Lennox has Chiron in Capricorn, square Neptune and opposite Jupiter and Uranus.
Bob Dylan has written some amazing guru-like songs, but on the other hand, some of this songs seem very petty and personal to me like he's angry with an old girl friend (who cares?). One of his best periods, IMO, was his "born again" period in the 1970s; there's a linefrom Slow Train Coming which I've always found poignant:"there's illusion in a vision
follow your own ambition".
Quote from Myrios on 22.04.2011 at 14:47 [UT+1]:
As for Dawkins -- prodding people into shedding all their belief systems -- Ahem ....that is, except the belief in the CULTof SCIENCE
All he is doing is brainwashing people into his own CULT and its not a difficult job today ... as this NEW
GENERATION has had its thoughts pre-tuned into Sci-Fi by the Magic of Media into this 'godless' new 'worship'.
MyriosNo surprise that this raises some eyebrows. The point however, is that empirical scientists stress that science, or moreaccurately, "the scientific method" is not a cult, or a belief, or a dogma or a faith. They do not say that it is
the only method of approaching truth, but they do say that it is the only one that is universal, testable, humble and guru-free .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLctxRf7duU(this is a 12 part series of conversations between Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss - sorry I can't remember which part stresses the definitionof the scientific method, of whether in fact it is in this video set at all, but it's a very entertaining set if anyone is interested).

looks like he's a bit of a guru for you Realworld ... dressed in expensive immaculate silk suits and ties and sowell groomed
but all I see/hear in this testimony is Science's Own Self-Proclammatory Statement
No different than a Preacher in the Pulpit telling the 'pre- conditioned faith-full'
I am God's representative - I am the Expert - Bow Down and Kneel and Pray, for I am your only Way toSalvation(and please pay ca$h for my books and lectures, credit cards cost me $ out of my silk pocket)
He's a ScienceGod telling me He's a ScienceGod by virtue of the FACT He's a ScienceGod
Because He Alone Knows The Way - The Scientific Method(ist) clear and simple.
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100thMonkey
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #212 - on: 22.04.2011 at 22:55 [UT+1] »Richard Dawkins coined the term meme... ideas as viruses

Posts: 900

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #213 - on: 22.04.2011 at 23:13 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 22.04.2011 at 22:55 [UT+1]:
Richard Dawkins coined the term meme... ideas as viruses

Thanks for reminding me ... I don't mean to throw out all of Dawkin's message, MEME is a very importantconcept, to understand it opens a personal awareness, but I do see a clear connexion with ReligiousIntellectualism, which seems significant to keep in mind.
I did watch an interview he had with an English Bishop months ago - and to me, its all a worship of the 'purely
intellectual' - while throwing everything 'irrational' overboard as untrustworthy because it is "of the body" andnot "of the Higher Mind" -- which sends 'danger signals' out for me -- because young people are looking up to
Science and see 'Biology' as something that Science can control and explain therefore 'moderate' - but it is all
done according to the 'economic whim' as driven by Corporate Bodies, so in effect, Science is helping to affecta 'Corporate take over' from Nature Itself - which to me seems so irrational a direction, as to be quite 'mad' ...
Chang*Ling's link describes the processes involved ... its complex... put 'Science' in the place of 'Architects' andyou'll see what I mean ... Science cannot 'see' Science from anything but a pre-conditioned 'Science'
perspective.
Myrios« Last Edit: 23.04.2011 at 13:12 [UT+1] by u3525858 »Back to top

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #214 - on: 23.04.2011 at 00:00 [UT+1] »http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-692109983114796169#
Chris Knight: Origins of language and religion
an interesting video.

Posts: 3624

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Ed Falis

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #215 - on: 23.04.2011 at 01:07 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 22.04.2011 at 22:55 [UT+1]:
Richard Dawkins coined the term meme... ideas as viruses

Yes, but he was humble enough to admit that the idea was around before he put the label on it.
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Apostrophe
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #216 - on: 23.04.2011 at 01:38 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.04.2011 at 00:00 [UT+1]:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-692109983114796169#
Chris Knight: Origins of language and religion
an interesting video.

Yes, I've only watched a little so far, but his guy is saying some sensible stuff, for example:
Posts: 2454

"There is no form of knowledge more revolutionary than science"
From Myrios Quote:but all I see/hear in this testimony is Science's Own Self-Proclammatory Statement No different than a Preacher in the Pulpit telling the'pre- conditioned faith-full'
I am God's representative - I am the Expert - Bow Down and Kneel and Pray, for I am your only Way to Salvation

Seems to me that it was the other way round - when Galileo tried to explain to the Catholic Church that theearth might actually go around the sun, he was put in prison for it. I don't see any comparison between ascientist and a preacher: preachers preach beliefs, scientists provide evidence.
Dawkins is definitely one of my gurus, and I love his suits, although as mentioned above, I don't agree witheverything he says about morality. I think that Sam Harris is a better guide in that department, with his book
The Moral Landscape, and his previous ones The End Of Faith. and Letter To A Christian Nation. Along with
Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennet, these men form the tongue-in-cheek "Four Horsemen" - for anyone
who hasn't seen this yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc1pcDFM
But these 20th-century-born men are really only minor mouth pieces for the real gurus of science, who would
probably be Newton, Galileo, Darwin and Einstein, to name a few. Dawkins is often called "Darwin's Rottweiler",and people like Lawrence Krauss of Arizona State University and Brian Greene (The Elegant Universe) would
probably be the modern mouthpieces of Einstein, Neils Bohr, Max Planck or Werner Heisenberg, with inventive
ideas of their own. Another modern science (or "scientism" if you must) guru would be Michael Shermer, IMO;
he actually used scientific testing to show that astrology worked!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1dIUTbZTo
IMO, it's a bit like comparing Moses, Jesus or Mohammad to their modern apostles and disciples.
One thing is sure though - whether we like it or not, science/scientism and rationality will most likely be thephilosophies of the Age Of Aquarius, ruled by Saturn and Uranus, so we might as well understand as much as
we are able about them right now, even using their principles to see that that they are not abused any morethan they have been already. Just as there is a positive and negative side to religionism, or any other ism,scientism can become abusive in the wrong hands.
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beyond the stars

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #217 - on: 23.04.2011 at 06:33 [UT+1] »I don't know if the turn this conversation has taken means everyone has read the article about cognitive
dissonance changling posted, but here are some appropriate paragraphs from the article that echo what you're
all saying (to some extent):
1) Two related mechanisms influence people to accept misinformation as truth: passive conformity to majority
beliefs; and deliberate falsehood promoted by a system of authority in order to further its ends. The instinctive
mechanism of conformity is seemingly innocuous and is not amenable to human control. Passive conformity
simply occurs because of human nature. Investigating the propaganda and conditioning apparatus employed bysystems of authority to deliberately spread misinformation requires a separate study (Hoffer, 1951; Salingaros,
2008). Individuals promote irrational beliefs so as to gain control over a group of people. We have examples incults, dangerous sects, extremist political movements, etc. However innocuous the advertising industry may
appear to be compared to a totalitarian regime coming to and holding power, the same techniques of
persuasion are used to sell fatburgers and soft drinks laden with synthetic fructose.
2) All too often in the history of science, a much superior explanation is resisted by the contemporary scientificcommunity and is marginalized and forgotten, to be re-discovered and appreciated only much later. Thisphenomenon sounds very much like the behavior of non-scientists who switch from one belief to another underthe mechanism of groupthink. In this latter case, there is frequently no basis for rationality: a segment of the
population may switch political alliances, or popular beliefs, or some key aspect of cultural behavior. Fashions
take over the minds of a nation, run their course, and then give way to yet another fashion. The point is thatduring the period when one fashion holds reign, it is nearly impossible to convince its followers to switch tosomething else, and rational arguments have no effect. When change eventually comes, it is sudden.
3) Cognitive dissonance and the utopian fallacy
The human mind craves solutions but is challenged intellectually by complexity, and thus it would rather accept
a simplistic cognitive schema that is a non-solution instead of having to tackle a complex problem directly.
Clearly, something deep within the evolved human mind makes utopian proposals irresistibly attractive;
possibly their promise of a clean and instant solution to a host of extremely complex problems. Utopia provides
the lazy mind a way out. The British philosopher Roger Scruton discusses the mindset of those who embrace
utopian ideals, which henceforth determine a false but comforting view of the world. Following the Hungarianphilosopher Aurel Kolnai, Scruton terms this syndrome “The Utopian Fallacy” (Scruton, 2010).
Unfortunately, those who accept a utopian worldview become blinded to reality.
4) Every social group maintains cohesion through its beliefs, and therefore wishes to protect existing beliefs
from external influence. Binding together is essential in maintaining the group’s power base. If beliefs areverifiable, then education and openness are the best policy for attracting members. If not, then a wall of
mistrust is erected towards any competing beliefs found on the outside since those pose a threat. In cults, oneof the primary messages to followers is not to believe anyone outside the cult, which is but an extreme versionof the natural exclusiveness of any socially cohesive group. Only select information that tends to confirm thegroup’s beliefs is allowed to penetrate. Selectively justifying a previously held opinion in the face of datathat could disprove it avoids cognitive dissonance (Nickerson, 1998).
I would especially suggest reading the section "Seven tactics in a strategy for denying the truth", about halfway through the article.
Very helpful indeed, and I have enjoyed reading it, while watching re-runs of Dr. Who, in anticipation of the
new season beginning tomorrow.
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vertexMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #218 - on: 23.04.2011 at 07:05 [UT+1] »Quote:
4) Every social group maintains cohesion through its beliefs, and therefore wishes to protect existing beliefs from external influence.
Binding together is essential in maintaining the group’s power base. If beliefs are verifiable, then education and openness are the bestpolicy for attracting members. If not, then a wall of mistrust is erected towards any competing beliefs found on the outside since thosepose a threat. In cults,...

Posts: 5576
Gender:I wonder if this fits for certain members of the astrological community? Do they act cult-like? Hmm.....
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~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #219 - on: 23.04.2011 at 09:28 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 23.04.2011 at 06:33 [UT+1]:
I don't know if the turn this conversation has taken means everyone has read the article about cognitive dissonance changling posted, buthere are some appropriate paragraphs from the article that echo what you're all saying (to some extent):(...)3) Cognitive dissonance and the utopian fallacy
The human mind craves solutions but is challenged intellectually by complexity, and thus it would rather accept a simplistic cognitive
schema that is a non-solution instead of having to tackle a complex problem directly. Clearly, something deep within the evolved humanmind makes utopian proposals irresistibly attractive; possibly their promise of a clean and instant solution to a host of extremely complex
problems. Utopia provides the lazy mind a way out. The British philosopher Roger Scruton discusses the mindset of those who embrace
utopian ideals, which henceforth determine a false but comforting view of the world. Following the Hungarian philosopher Aurel Kolnai,
Scruton terms this syndrome “The Utopian Fallacy” (Scruton, 2010).
Unfortunately, those who accept a utopian worldview become blinded to reality.
(...)

Thanks for this excerpt. it allows us going further... and to analyze further. Firstly what are those utopian
ideals ? It's so obvious that utopia is a neccessity that is included in our way of life... I should say in the coreof our life...
At this point, please, take the time to read this link
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/17734/on-utopia-and-progressive-utopian-ideals
I'm sure you will find a lot to say...
... and for those of us who are lazy, a bit of music :IMAGINE by John Lennon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MSGYBZS8d8

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Fauve
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #220 - on: 23.04.2011 at 09:49 [UT+1] »Thanks for the music Jade.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #221 - on: 23.04.2011 at 18:17 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 22.04.2011 at 22:31 [UT+1]:
Skepticism does actually open up a world of possibilities.
Ie - How can you believe it to be so..?
How can you believe it not to be so ?
Quote:
One of the main obstacles to freeing the mind from its shackles of belief is the desire for certainty. Give up this desire andit is possible to explore the universe with an open mind. .... Belief is a choice, and a choice that rules out alternative
views and ways of thinking. Possessing too many beliefs prevents people from thinking outside the box, and it is just thissort of thinking that skepticism encourages.
http://blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=537

You've never heard me malign skepticism. I was clear about what I said.
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Violet Bluebell
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #222 - on: 24.04.2011 at 11:36 [UT+1] »Oh my, the Living God himself, Sai Baba, has died this morning of 'multiple organ failure'. That'll upset a few
of his remaining devotees (including my parents). He predicted confidently that he would die at age 96 whichmeans he's departed 10 years early.
Death chart shows t. Hades has been inconjunct his Sun-Saturn conjunction for quite a while now as well as
squaring his Poseidon. T. Pluto is also squaring his Admetos at 6 Aries (Admetos often implicated in death),semi-sextiling his Mercury (ruler of 8th), inconjuncting his Zeus in Leo (heart?).
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astro_24gw_200_sri_sathya_sai_baba_adb_2011424.37582.30018.gif(attachment deleted)
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Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #223 - on: 24.04.2011 at 17:32 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 23.04.2011 at 01:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 23.04.2011 at 00:00 [UT+1]:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-692109983114796169#
Chris Knight: Origins of language and religion
an interesting video.

Yes, I've only watched a little so far, but his guy is saying some sensible stuff, for example:"There is no form of knowledge more revolutionary than science"

Yes but what is he really saying with that snippet of a sentence within the overall context of this lengthy
monologue???????
That little snippet is out of context. Chris Knight actually states that "information confers power" -- that
because "knowledge has become power" (through our belief system) Science then becomes "empowering" -and he also states that he prefers the dialectical method of Marx/Engels as a far more elegant argument than
Dawkins' simplistic approach to describing the historical role of religious belief, or 'religion as opiate of thepeople'. He contrasts "Institutional Facts" with "Brute Facts". Falling off a cliff (gravity) is a "Brute Fact" as
opposed to "Money is Sacred".
Knight says we live in an "enchanted world" which we build up with language based on our "cultural beliefs".
We make the world "real" according to the culture of beliefs we live in. He contrasts the modern capitalist
concept of "scarcity of resources" -- "Money is Sacred, Everything has a Price" -- with the hunter/gatherer's
concept of Nature's Abundance. He refers to "Akila" (sp?), a hunter/gatherer concept which encompasses
complexities such as medicine, feelings, +++ (and more) and he talks about our insistence of "trying to developthese people" ... because of our own "beliefs"... information confers power.
Vis-a-vis language, Knight has a problem with Noam Chomsky (Cartesian guru of language) who postulates
that the language mechanism just "suddenly appeared" in humans "one day" out of the blue. Descartes' "Ithink, therefore I am" and Chomsky's "language is not for communication" ....
Ridiculous, says Knight, andhe says some of us should start to "scream" - he does a rendition of a baboon screaming.
He speaks of male versus female, and females' resistance to sexual oppression, or the socially defined roles -->"women make babies and men work" --> as strategies for getting modern men to do their 'share' -- hementions "if you violate your bodies" ... (which I see has its extended repercussions on the larger body of theplanet itself) ...I listened for an hour. Its sometimes hard to comprehend the man, unless you know a lot ofbackground - he's brilliant - should be a 'guru' - but so hard to just "talk" on this enormous topic he attempts
to convey.
Thanks to Chang*Ling.

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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #224 - on: 24.04.2011 at 18:03 [UT+1] »Yeah, he got the Vocab: "Le Conesanse…"
Going back to my Easter Bunny. Still love him….He got the Vocab.
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Apostrophe

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #225 - on: 24.04.2011 at 20:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 24.04.2011 at 17:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from realworld on 23.04.2011 at 01:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 23.04.2011 at 00:00 [UT+1]:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-692109983114796169#
Chris Knight: Origins of language and religion
an interesting video.

Posts: 2454

Yes, I've only watched a little so far, but his guy is saying some sensible stuff, for example:"There is no form of knowledge more revolutionary than science"

Yes but what is he really saying with that snippet of a sentence within the overall context of this lengthy monologue???????
That little snippet is out of context. Chris Knight actually states that "information confers power" -- that because "knowledge has become
power" (through our belief system) Science then becomes "empowering" -- and he also states that he prefers the dialectical method of
Marx/Engels as a far more elegant argument than Dawkins' simplistic approach to describing the historical role of religious belief, or'religion as opiate of the people'. He contrasts "Institutional Facts" with "Brute Facts". Falling off a cliff (gravity) is a "Brute Fact" as
opposed to "Money is Sacred"...

Thanks for this synopsis of Knight's talk Myrios and sorry for the delay in responding but I've been busy withfamily. With any teacher, speaker, author or guru, I always like to know where they are coming fromphilosophically, and Chris Knight is coming from a of commitment to communism. Having lived with a bunchof Marxists in the 1970s in England, who espoused equality and workers' rights but never washed their dishes, I
am a bit wary of any so called dialectical arguments. I think that popularity of the new atheists/skeptics like
Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Shermer shows that most people also find their arguments easier to understandthan the more politically motivated theories of Marx and Engels, which as we know, did not work out practically.
But as mentioned earlier, I do not agree totality with what these new skeptics espouse. As Stephen mentioned
above, many of them have not taken the time to study our modern versions of spirituality like PsychologicalAstrology and so cannot make a completely honest criticism of it. However, the criticisms that they do make, I
think are a good thing, because it forces those astrologers who are capable, to refine our explanations of how it
might work, rationally and as scientifically as possible. We've been very lazy up until now.
Of the "four horsemen" mentioned above, Sam Harris is probably the most amenable to any talk of spirituality.
He practices transcendental meditation and has in fact angered some of his own skeptic followers by evenmentioning the subject. The sore point in all these men's arguments is of course the G word. Dawkins' isactually quite embarrassing by claiming that God is a delusion, but then slipping in little phrases in this talks
like "we should give thanks" (who/what to?) and the occasional use of the word "design" (who/what by?). I do
think that he has an Einsteinian view of God, meaning "the universe", but it just goes to show that we have tobe very careful with vocabulary.
By definition, a "guru" is, I think, meant to be a teacher or catalyst for "spiritual" ideas to grow in people, butwhat do we actually mean by "spiritual"? Non material? Unseen. If so, quantum physics and Natural Selection(unseen because it takes place over a huge time span, and therefore is virtually invisible) might qualify. .
However, I do see similarities between what is happening now and what happened 2000 years ago with Jesus.
The Jewish rabbi was a revolutionary, and so is Dawkins. In fact they both share that Jupiter-Saturn-Uranus
conjunction.

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Evolving
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #226 - on: 25.04.2011 at 01:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Violet Bluebell on 24.04.2011 at 11:36 [UT+1]:
Oh my, the Living God himself, Sai Baba, has died this morning of 'multiple organ failure'. That'll upset a few of his remaining devotees(including my parents). He predicted confidently that he would die at age 96 which means he's departed 10 years early.

Didn't know much about him - know a handful that followed him.
Rest in peace. . .
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Taylor Selseth

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #227 - on: 25.04.2011 at 01:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 20.04.2011 at 14:17 [UT+1]:
Like 100thMonkey said ... before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After Enlightenment, chop wood carry water.

MyriosPosts: 222
Gender:I LOL'd when I first saw that Zen saying.

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Taylor Selseth
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #228 - on: 25.04.2011 at 01:45 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 20.04.2011 at 18:17 [UT+1]:... so, I was reading up on the history of gurus, and google automatically redirects you to the history of Sikh-related gurus, which ithought was interesting. And in each description of a Sikh guru through the ages, they mention loss of ego, so apparently, to become agood guru, you really do have to lose your ego, or learn not to let it dominate you. So that Jupiter's Daughter, who actively seeks guruism, would be immediately suspect, since your ego is OUT OF CONTROL

Posts: 222
Gender:since power goes to these people's heads, whether they'resikh or not. The antithesis of what you want in a guru is precisely what you get a lot of the time, where they somehow manage to seducea faithful flock into following them into perfidy (like Jim Jones)... and this is precisely what you do not want in a leader, it seems to me.
Someone whose ego is out of control, who doesn't represent the egolessness that is at the heart of spirituality. Drink the kool-aid cause I
said so, and plus which, God wants you to drink the kool-aid!! No. This is not good.
Here is Jim Jones' chart, with transits and progressions for the day he committed suicide. I thought it was particularly interesting that T
has entered his 12th house, in opposition to progressedin the 6th. I do rather consider this particular axis to be the crazy-ID

person axis. I created a thread on this axis a long time ago now, largely because it really goes under the radar, since no one seems toknow what to make of the 6th house ("oh, it's all about work...") um no it's not, it's about weird, psychotic mental illnesses, especiallywhen something is transiting the 12th, triggering 6th house illness acting out. I guess I see it this way largely because of the twisted
nature of what are essentially subterranean influences coming from the hidden/psychotic 12th, where mental illness seems to lurk. Then atransit affects a progressed planet, and boom, full-blown psychosis.

Uh-Oh, I have T Gg H12 n Ca H6 right now. Is that bad?
Oh, and I have A in the 7th, too.
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beyond the stars

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #229 - on: 25.04.2011 at 02:27 [UT+1] »I think you would officially be crazy, but A in the 7th rescues you from harm.
I should really say more than this, but it's Easter, the holy day of my personal guru, so I am required by therules of Catholicism to sit and ponder that.
This is how you can get the Jehovah's Witnesses to leave you alone, btw: just be more crazed than they are,and when they come to the door, asking, innocently, if you have accepted Christ into your heart, and selling
their Jesus-shaped cookies, just say, "oh no, I have a deeply personal relationship with Christ that I don't
discuss." Look at them intently while you say this. Believe me, they'll RUN. Works every time.
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MoiraeMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #230 - on: 25.04.2011 at 05:40 [UT+1] »BtS,

Been there. Do that.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #231 - on: 25.04.2011 at 14:36 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 24.04.2011 at 20:38 [UT+1]:[edit] Thanks for this synopsis of Knight's talk Myrios [edit] With any teacher, speaker, author or guru, I always liketo know where they are coming from philosophically, and Chris Knight is coming from a of commitment to communism. Having lived witha bunch of Marxists in the 1970s in England, who espoused equality and workers' rights but never washed their dishes, I am a bit wary of
any so called dialectical arguments. I think that popularity of the new atheists/skeptics like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Shermer showsthat most people also find their arguments easier to understand than the more politically motivated theories of Marx and Engels, which as
we know, did not work out practically.[edit]

Realworld, thanks for your response. Its a pity you have changed your mind about him, but that's how our"belief systems" do work to narrow our perceptions, as Knight is trying to point out to us in the video - you did
think Knight said 'some good stuff' so I thought you might like to discuss his ideas further. The 'synopsis' I
gave was from my own notes - from the first hour of listening to his lecture - certainly Chris Knight (strange
name for a "communist" if indeed he is such) is not as suave, polished, or smooth as Dawkins, but his ideas arewell worth listening to. I don't know what his conclusions were, (long video) but I am not political - don't
adhere to any "ism" including scientism. But for the record, here's all of what I actually posted - though there
was much more he covered in his lecture:

Quote:"There is no form of knowledge more revolutionary than science"

Yes but what is he really saying with that snippet of a sentence within the overall context of this lengthy
monologue???????
That little snippet is out of context. Chris Knight actually states that "information confers power" -- that
because "knowledge has become power" (through our belief system) Science then becomes "empowering" -and he also states that he prefers the dialectical method of Marx/Engels as a far more elegant argument than
Dawkins' simplistic approach to describing the historical role of religious belief, or 'religion as opiate of thepeople'. He contrasts "Institutional Facts" with "Brute Facts". Falling off a cliff (gravity) is a "Brute Fact" as
opposed to "Money is Sacred".
Knight says we live in an "enchanted world" which we build up with language based on our "cultural beliefs".
We make the world "real" according to the culture of beliefs we live in. He contrasts the modern capitalist
concept of "scarcity of resources" -- "Money is Sacred, Everything has a Price" -- with the hunter/gatherer's
concept of Nature's Abundance. He refers to "Akila" (sp?), a hunter/gatherer concept which encompasses
complexities such as medicine, feelings, +++ (and more) and he talks about our insistence of "trying to developthese people" ... because of our own "beliefs"... information confers power.
Vis-a-vis language, Knight has a problem with Noam Chomsky (Cartesian guru of language) who postulates
that the language mechanism just "suddenly appeared" in humans "one day" out of the blue. Descartes' "Ithink, therefore I am" and Chomsky's "language is not for communication" .... Ridiculous, says Knight, andhe says some of us should start to "scream" - he does a rendition of a baboon screaming.
He speaks of male versus female, and females' resistance to sexual oppression, or the socially defined roles -->"women make babies and men work" --> as strategies for getting modern men to do their 'share' -- hementions "if you violate your bodies" ... (which I see has its extended repercussions on the larger body of theplanet itself) ...I listened for an hour. Its sometimes hard to comprehend the man, unless you know a lot ofbackground - he's brilliant - should be a 'guru' - but so hard to just "talk" on this enormous topic he attempts
to convey.

Myrios25.04.2011 at 19:23 [UT+1]
Addendum: Watched the end of the video - between the thunderstorms since yesterday, expected to last forfive days Yes, Chris Knight is indeed a Marxist, who's concern is that Science cannot continue under Capitalism - he says
the alarm bells are ringing in the scientific community about the climate - a 2 degree rise is the tipping point
for the future of life and a 4 degree rise is "curtains". Interesting to me in particular, is his definition of
Language ( I agree wholeheartedly).
"Language is a string of jokes ... every Word is a Metaphor and a Metaphor is a Joke ... literally, theFalse becomes the True."

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chang*lingMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #232 - on: 25.04.2011 at 14:50 [UT+1] »i watched a video on the cold war space race. interesting that communism actually put a man in orbit before
capitalism. and its seemed as if capitalism was being reactionary and always trying to get the upper hand.
seems like the politics that runs capitalism is theatre and the so called enemy actually can get group effort topay off.
i am not politically minded, as to say that it does not personally interest me, more of a spiritual philosophiser,
always giving way to the bigger picture, and i can say for sure, that capitalism has a sell by date. the facts areclear and the resources it needs to consume is finite, unless we actually start mining the other planets in thesolar system, while living in an artificially created environment. so for all those that believe the rhetoric that
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science will save us, or even mankind's ingenuity, it is illusion created from the time we left the garden of Eden.
there is no turning back the clock, but there is admitting to the mistake of being arrogant and except that wewould not be here if it weren't for the creator. gracious gratefulness for all that is, even though some of it is apain in the proverbial.
be blessed.

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StefanEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #233 - on: 25.04.2011 at 17:06 [UT+1] »Sai baba had some weakening progressions, transits and eclipses combined, which at his age may be a signof ill health and possible death.
Progressions
ApnIp (activates natal angular GoI which is an aspect of renunciation and in medical astrology
a prime combination for weakness of health, called by Eberting sickness axis).
EpoI
P IC mEp (point of end of life).
Tr.ImIC (point of end of life).
Tr.IoA (low vitality).
EclipseJanuary Eclipse 13 jnBJ 8th house (transition into the realms of death, end of lifephase)(Before death there is often exact eclipses to important points in chart).
It may be interesting that 23 days after his birth there was an eclipse at 26 c
(These points are important to watch according to astrologer Richard Houck)
Transiting Mean South node (ketu) was at exact 26 c at death.
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sai_baba.gif (attachment deleted)
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dailynews
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #234 - on: 25.04.2011 at 19:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Evolving on 25.04.2011 at 01:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Violet Bluebell on 24.04.2011 at 11:36 [UT+1]:
Oh my, the Living God himself, Sai Baba, has died this morning of 'multiple organ failure'. That'll upset a few of his
remaining devotees (including my parents). He predicted confidently that he would die at age 96 which means he's

Posts: 215

departed 10 years early.

Didn't know much about him - know a handful that followed him.
Rest in peace. . .

I was following some of the Sai Baba news yesterday/live stream news out of India and various postings on ayahoo group of his followers.
It was mentioned that Sai Baba used the Traditional Indian Lunar years(number of days B takes to rotate
earth) w/out any adjustment to solar.And with the Hindu Calander the day of birth as the 1st yr.
I was not aware of just how popular Sai Baba was. His humantarian endeavors were massive...I am aware of
how hugh the works of Hindu guru-leader Ammachi yet didnt realize that Sai B. was so influencial .
The masses turning out for the viewing/laid in state Sai Baba are immense . In thinking a loud here, one getsback to this good guru bad guru-ness. It was one of the more Western news articles read yesterday that
extremely highlighted the contraversal aspects of Sai Baba's role/behavior(the dirt and danger so to speak).
The large Indian papers expounded his good works,powerful influence and many devotees.
What part of ones local/regional mores take part in assessing what is bad-good. Were some of these "bad" guru
types ok until some thing snapped? And/or has crazy wisdom taken over with its little-no regard for existing
moral values?
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Richard Vetter

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Sai Baba« Reply #235 - on: 25.04.2011 at 20:58 [UT+1] »I read that Sai Baba's published birth dates were pure propaganda - because of Aurobindo's realization of the"super-mind" a couple days later.
They say he actually was born some day in 1929.

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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #236 - on: 25.04.2011 at 21:23 [UT+1] »Dailynews, I didn't want you to think that this thought: What part of ones local/regional mores take part inassessing what is bad-good. Were some of these "bad" guru types ok until some thing snapped? And/or has
crazy wisdom taken over with its little-no regard for existing moral values? was going unnoticed. I am
pondering it. It's actually a very large question, because there is so much wrong with the culture that creates
these false gurus in the first place, that it's not entirely surprising that the power they are given goes to theirheads.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #237 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:11 [UT+1] »I think some spiritual leaders do good for a time, but then their motives get off. I think that is the case with
Jim Jones. He was almost surely sincere in the beginning.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #238 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1] »we all know that we are in a big "supermarket"
the"Spirituality" is a big deal, juicy... but let me ask you a question : if the Christ would be there... among all
the gurus whom you heard about, would you be able to recognize him ?
What might be the characteristics of - let say - a buddha (or a satguru) in the modern way of life that we have ?

... could he take a plane ?
... could he have a wife ?
... could he have children ?
... could he have a bank ?
if yes... How are you going to recognize that he can help you ? if you are interested to know more about thelife.. your life... and that the science is not the respond...
will you test ?
will you try ?
will you ask to the others what they think ? what they feel ?
Beyond the stars... you have a problem, you doubt of yourself... it is said that among all the persons who hear
the true master, very few are those who listen to him, among them, very few are those who understand... andamong those who understand, very few are those who make the experience of what he says...
So, if you doubt already of yourself... forget about all this question of master or guru... good or bad, you will
not make the difference.
You should better going to the beach... really. Because in fact, it's a committment with yourself that you takewhen you meet a true master, not with him.
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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #239 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:24 [UT+1] »Thats why if you meet the Buddha on the road, you should kill him!

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Ed Falis
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #240 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:24 [UT+1] »The 20th century was not a simple time and place. The 21st seems much simpler.
- Ed
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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #241 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:27 [UT+1] »Really Ed? Please explain...

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Ed Falis
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #242 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:39 [UT+1] »Think of the sheer rawness of the 20th century events, the wars, the genocides, the combating ideologies. The
transformation from rural to industrial on an unprecedented scale. The diversity. The opening up of new media
and musical diversity. The apotheoses of many art forms as we moved away into the grayness of post-modern
well-reflected-upon and often cynical acts of "art".
The 21st seems less complex - except for deniers we know we have major ecological issues, globalization has
simplified the culture, as has the internet (despite one's tendency to interpret it otherwise). Increased
homogenization, less cognitively extreme atrocities. Expanded horizons of "the possible" all moving to reduced
significance.
OK, I'm having a brain burp.
- Ed
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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #243 - on: 25.04.2011 at 22:44 [UT+1] »I agree, the diversity has been blended, homogenised, losing regional variation. The rise and rise of the humansuper organism. As we twitter and tweet. The frontiers now seem to be internal. cellular, genetic.

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dailynews
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #244 - on: 26.04.2011 at 00:03 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 25.04.2011 at 22:11 [UT+1]:
I think some spiritual leaders do good for a time, but then their motives get off. I think that is the case with Jim Jones. He was almost
surely sincere in the beginning.

Posts: 215

I recall seeing a biography TV program(maybe PBS) on Jim Jones. In his start, in early days he was quite
progressive in the civil rights arena...stressing equality w/in the races and walking the talk. Motives get off,maybe from drug use unleashing all the dark traits/urges/once stuffed away.

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StefanEx Member

Re: Sai Baba
« Reply #245 - on: 26.04.2011 at 00:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Richard Vetter on 25.04.2011 at 20:58 [UT+1]:
I read that Sai Baba's published birth dates were pure propaganda - because of Aurobindo's realization of the "super-mind" a couple days
later.
They say he actually was born some day in 1929.

Yeah I saw now that Sai Baba's birthdata was rated xx by astrodatabank.
But then we might perhaps consider the "easy generalisation" taken by the theory of "the moment of time" as
set forth by Cornelius.
The chart might fit to some extent, even if it isn't the correct chart ? ...controversy
The progressions seems quite sickness and organ failure oriented to me. so it is probably right date anyway ?
hmm....
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru

dailynews
Member« Reply #246 - on: 26.04.2011 at 01:37 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 25.04.2011 at 21:23 [UT+1]:
Dailynews, I didn't want you to think that this thought: What part of ones local/regional mores take part in assessing what is bad-good.
Were some of these "bad" guru types ok until some thing snapped? And/or has crazy wisdom taken over with its little-no regard forexisting moral values? was going unnoticed. I am pondering it. It's actually a very large question, because there is so much wrong with theculture that creates these false gurus in the first place, that it's not entirely surprising that the power they are given goes to their heads.

Posts: 215

Its all food for thought and can be good to mull over some of these things in the threads.
I am not too sure the cultures create "false guru's or something is wrong w/ the/a culture where the guru role
has had a place.
Perhaps a big dose of discernment is lacking for some seeking .Perhaps this is a value that some culturesencourage more. Perhaps one is too ready to attach specialness to the 1st guy/leader if they have experienced
some altered state in the same room
.Maybe the false guru issues can occur more in a culture without a long tradition and under a culture thatvalues a quick fix and specialness. . Is there a scale(mores bound) of sorts that says if that guru had sex-power
trips with a dozen devotees does that mean he is false? Is the guru transmitting beyond personality.I wanted
to add that the power of some of these leaders gets infused to some sense of self importance and spins out(thinking Jim Jones,etc).
The Hindu/Buddhist guru-spiritual teacher role and dynamic between devotee/student does have a kind of
mysterious element and most often plain and simple private road(in the sense of spirtual development/insight).
There was an article in Christan Science Monitor that discussed the still relevant(in India) guru role/tradition inIndia today and how the large and important humanitarian projects under some of these "godmen" can be
developed/occur and in place and working in a short time line versus the slower to act government.(simply outof their millions of followers/financial resources).

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Apostrophe

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #247 - on: 26.04.2011 at 06:04 [UT+1] »Quote from ~Jade~ on 25.04.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1]:
we all know that we are in a big "supermarket"
the"Spirituality" is a big deal, juicy... but let me ask you a question : if the Christ would be there... among all the gurus whom you heard
about, would you be able to recognize him ?
What might be the characteristics of - let say - a buddha (or a satguru) in the modern way of life that we have ?

Posts: 2454... could he take a plane ?
... could he have a wife ?
... could he have children ?
... could he have a bank ?

Why he?
I notice that all the gurus mentioned so far have been male.
I think what we are missing here is that even if we had a few female gurus - and I can think of a few womenthat I admire, (musicians like Aretha Franklin or Joni Mitchell), that's not what the Aquarian Age requires! We're
all going to have to find our own center or Inner Christ/Krishna/Buddha - I don't even like using that word, as
it has such an obvious religious/Pisces connotation. Perhaps "integrity" would be better.
Regarding the four questions above, ~Jade~, it's something that I have often thought about, substituting "she"for he. Also, not sure about the intent of "could" rather than "would".
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~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #248 - on: 26.04.2011 at 09:12 [UT+1] »could he (or she) ?
would he (or she) own a gun.. ?
I've always thought that there were a slight difference between "having the possibility"... versus "wanting thepossibility" (could/would)... sometimes we are misinformed, and yes, the words are tricky, subjects to interpretation...
The true master offers you the acces to your center of gravity... to what never change in you, and that issomething that must be known. That is something which is already there... as in your birth chart... a potentialthat can be unfolded... discovered.
The only pre-request is to be interested, truly interested... I should say "to be thirsty"... otherwise, you canmiss the essential... and your life goes on... but you can feel that something is wrong... you even feel that you
can't get "satisfaction" in the daily routine... That is the starting point... the emptiness... then you can befulfilled by the inner experience... We run from one thing to another thing... and for some of us, from one
guru to another guru... The true master don't give you anything else that what is already there...he puts you intouch with yourself. Your true self... and not with an idea of it, cleverly presented. There is a reality to
discover, a reality that is not outside of us, but inside of us.
That is why life is so precious, because we can have access to the source while we have a body...
the oldest question : why am I alive....
... and who said that we are born to make money ? and create systems... financial and political ? and be
litteraly caught by them ?
P.S. : I heard about a women... who is doing conferences... but my master is a man
http://www.whywalkwhenyoucanfly.com/
http://www.whywalkwhenyoucanfly.com/new/contenido.php?seccion=menu_isha_movie_pe licula
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #249 - on: 26.04.2011 at 10:26 [UT+1] »Dailynews
Those are very interesting questions you’re asking. I am pondering on these myself as well.

Maybetransmitting go’s beyond personality: Lets hope it does. But is it to much to ask from a Guru to at leastmaster his own testosterone; as not to mention the urge for playing S&M sort of power plays by calling it Crazy
Wisdom…?
Even though it does teach a person certain lessons: It gives me kind of the same taste into mymouth as finding out Santa is a paedophile on top of being a nice giving man to little children.
I think the Guru System is outdated. As someone born in the mid sixties, I prefer finding my own G-Spot(Guru-Spot) instead of letting anyone else find it for me and talking me into total submission and worshipping
afterwards.
Its not uncommon to experience some sort of an altered state after going trough a deep crisis anyway. It also isvery personal and shaped right onto the individual him/her self. What I don’t understand is why so many
people after an experience like that run up onto a stage to convince people they are the enlightened ones andtell us we should all do like they did… I think this is a very rigid way of thinking and above all ineffective for themasses. Not at all to strange if it explodes in ones face because part of your devotees aren’t to happy andblissed out anymore after time go’s by. Bathing in someones charisma is a powerful thing to tap into at it self
for a while, but doesn’t stick in the end.
Realworld
These days many female Guru's/Teachers are seeking the public. It’s a very hot item. Many woman arechannelling Mary Magdalene for example. There also is a return of all sorts of types of Goddess and Great
Mother worshipping.The collective mind is very open to this right now. Many cultures have legends if it comesto the return of the female part of our spiritual consciousness connected to this time in space and the age
shift. Which can be beautiful at it self. People like Byron Katie and Kiesha Crowther are good examples ofplaying into this.
Byron Katie does this by projecting herself to her followers as the Woman Christ in her book: A Cry in the
Dessert; which today BTW also is repressed by her and her own company; just like her book Losing the Moon
is. Repressing her own books is a pattern with this woman. But here is a Quote:
Quote:on page 42, they start making claims that Katie could heal illness, by her touch and presence. Obviously,
they are trying to turn BK into the WomanChrist, literally. Its almost an exact copy of a modern day story ofJesus Christ healing people, even the house being overfull and not enough hours in the day to heal people...
Obviously, they realized later this was going to too far, to claim that BK was doing healing like Christ by her
presence....
no wonder they blocked this book, and burnt all the copies. This book is getting ridiculous...its only page 42,
and she is already Katie The Christ...what's next?
on page 43 she is literally claiming she healed people in her presence, and then out of her presence they
recreated their disease.
Pretty clumsy and crass...but hey, they hadn't cleaned-up and refined the story yet for mass appeal. Unquote
Read more:http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,page=106
Kiesha Crowther aka Little Grandmother who claims she was initiated as a Shaman by her mothers tribe:Sioux/Salish. As well as to be recognized by the Continental Council of Indigenous Elders as Wisdom Keeper for
North America. Is playing into an old Native American prophesy about the coming of the White Buffalo
Woman.
Here is a link to the last page to the Kiesha Crowther thread on the Native American forum: New Age Frauds &Plastic Shamans where they’ve debunked her because no Native American out there has ever met her or her
mother for that matter; nor has she been initiated by one of their Medicine People and/or Elders.

Quote:And of course her claim of Native ancestry is denied even by her own mother and sisters. All the
documentary evidence shows it's false. All her ancestors came from England.
That latest message has some even crazier claims.
"For so long i have been talking about those who live within the earth, and they are who keep one of the main
crystal skulls.. they will come to the surface at the time of *change* .. these people in South America are only
a very small group of those who have been found.. there are many living within the earth. This is the mostamazing time to be alive... and the ancient truths will come to the surface!" Unquote
Read more: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2871.1050#ixzz1KcSUOZ1kThere are Woman Guru’s out there: It’s the latest fashion in the Guru Business these days.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #250 - on: 26.04.2011 at 14:22 [UT+1] »Someone already mentioned Ammachi, a female guru. Mata Amritanandamayi is her full name.

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #251 - on: 26.04.2011 at 14:25 [UT+1] »I think 'spiritual leader' is not a bad calling and not always presumptious. But anyone on the path or in theboat of spiritual leader is under attack from the ego. Anyone who decides to take a spiritual path will soon
have an ego crisis as the threatened ego tries to re-assert control. Gurus and spiritual leaders are very prone toego corruption.
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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #252 - on: 26.04.2011 at 18:21 [UT+1] »Yes, it was Kiesha Crowther and, as a separate issue, the Brahma Kumaris "university" that I mentioned in my
opening post, as a matter of fact... It was Kiesha Crowther who kind of sucked me in, for precisely the same
reason she sucks in other stupid white people, because we don't know any better.
I'd be ashamed of myignorance, but I'm part of an ignorant cohort, and anyway, these experiences are intended to teach you to pay
more attention. Constant vigilance!!
But let's look at Kiesha Crowther for a second. Here is someone who claimed to be the "whitest" spiritual leader
around, and capitalized on that whiteness, in fact. Her claims to affiliation with ancient tribal leaders werealways questionable, yet it took years for her followers to find out that she was not what she said she was. The
simplest background check in the first five minutes of one of her earliest talks would have shown that she camefrom a family of white people who did not have a blood tie with any Indian tribe. But what she claimed suresounded good, and people want to believe; they/we need something to believe in. I think there are people who
are fairly desperate to follow a leader.
This is why I think the culture is part of what creates the need for these people in the first place. I think about
the culture of white people who followed behind Kiesha Crowther, without ever questioning, "wait, this is an
obviously white woman claiming to be of Indian tribal descent... how likely is that, really?" Why would they
allow themselves to believe this deception, so obviously untrue, in retrospect? I think this is where you get the
problem with the need for a spiritual leader in the first place (as others here have said). It's the need to follow
along behind someone, no matter how misguided they are, that causes the problem.
So, in the white culture that followed behind Kiesha Crowther, what are their motives? You didn't see a lot of
tribal elders sitting in her audience, that's for sure. Many of her videos were taped in Europe, because they
don't know any better than white people in this country. And her messages, at first, were very positive, if
repetitive. I put one of them up on my blog: you are god and goddess. I thought, at first, that she was offering
an alternative to masculinist rhetoric, that here was someone who was seeking to connect all energy, instead of
dichotomizing it. But no; unfortunately, it turned out she is making money off of people's ignorance of tribal
reality and the shaman tradition. You have to think that if she's capitalizing on our ignorance, that means she's
appealing to our egos, because it's pretty clear that's one way false spiritual leaders get anywhere—because
they feed off of our desire to be special and different.
I'm not, by nature, a follower. I prefer to do my own thinking. But I was criticized, many years ago, by anastrologer who told me I needed to find a guru, and sit at that person's feet, and erase my black 8th housekarma, and learn to overcome my EmJ ego issues. However, that presupposes that this magical guru hastranscended his own ego issues (in my day, all gurus were male). You can't learn from someone you don't
respect; at least, I can't. I just have very serious doubts that anyone who is in a physical incarnation is going to
be able to overcome his ego enough to be truly inspiring. I think I'm looking for something that does not exist,
and I'm okay with that, since I never expected to find the divine in physical form.
Anyway, these are just ruminations, and my mind is certainly open to the possibility that there is someone out
there worth following. I just haven't found it/she/he yet.
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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #253 - on: 26.04.2011 at 18:57 [UT+1] »Cultural appropriation is rather despicable. Here is an Australian Aboriginal response.
The spiritual and cultural impact of the false proclamations of Marlo Morgan's "Mutant Message Down
Posts: 900

Under and Lynn Andrew's Crystal Woman as two examples of many others written from a non-indigenous
perspective that illustrate a motive of consciousness change by means of meshing indigenous spiritual beliefs tocreate their own spiritual authority distorts the purity of origin of each ancient religion.
Quote:The strength of Aboriginal people to survive reflects the continuation of spiritual practice and cultural activity throughout the country today.
The nature of the Aboriginal struggle clearly illustrates the need for Our People to tell Our story Our way. The long term cultural
implication of this book and other forms of cultural exploitation is reflected in the misappropriation of fact and belief systems, alien ideals
and perceptions that is created by the individuals own view of spirituality and the relationship to their environment, social and religious
value systems that are specifically designed for commercial interests. The spiritual and cultural impact of the fales proclamations of Marlo
Morgan's "Mutant Message Down Under and Lynn Andrew's Crystal Woman as two examples of many others written from a non-indigenous
perspective that illustrate a motive of consciousness change by means of meshing indigenous spiritual beliefs to create their own spiritualauthority distorts the purity of origin of each ancient religion. This distortion of cultural understanding in the future will lead to greaterdifficulties for our future generations to identify and relate to ancestral knowledge within each tribal area. Marlo Morgan's claim are afabricated fantasy, her deceit is reflected on her conceptualisation of totemic religious belief and the dreaming is abysmal. If she has done
what she claims to have done without iniatic right it is punishable by death under Aboriginal Law.
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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #254 - on: 26.04.2011 at 20:26 [UT+1] »It’s kind of an coincidence BTS but I also intensively have been researching guru’s and New Age hypes the last
couple of months. I actually still look tired because I do have a life and did a lot of the reading at night. Before
I dislocated my right shoulder (Big Time) and needed all the rest a person possibly can have to heal thisone. So at a certain moment I did had more time onto my hands to dig into all this.
The Kiesha Crowther affair however was before the shoulder and I followed it live on stage, so to speak; on the
NAFPS forum.. Boy that was juicy: As a reaction to her exposure she first took down her entire web site. Thenpeople on the Tribe Of Many Colours forum just started to ask what the situation was about her background an
got banned almost right a way. Some of them popped up on the NAFPS forum and told their story. She andher manager also spoke out a curse on everybody who spoke bad about her…
In the end Kiesha closed theTribe Of Many Colours forum with a stupid excuse. The members who still were left, opened their own Tribe Of
Many Colours forum without being a touched to Kiesha, but made it a private forum at a certain point because
the readers from NAFPS kept reading and following it on a daily base (including me). It was a rotten situation
for the people of The Tribe Of Many Colours as well and Kiesha just walked out of it.
I didn’t fell for Kiesha even though someone told me about her who like me comes from a mixed bloodbackground (Not Native American BTW). I couldn’t watch her for two minutes without becoming truly tired;
which is an indicator to me if it comes to my BS detector. But do understand many people fell for this: She or
the people who are guiding her are very good trend watchers and do know how to tap into the collective mindof todays world. But it is what it is: Totally offensive to the true Native American community’s the way she isshowing off and claiming their regalia.
I did had my own embarrassments for that matter but Kiesha wasn’t part of it and like you: I suck as afollower also have one hell of a Mars/Pluto/Uranus contact myself. Who wants to be my Guru anyway with thisamount of explosives to transform and/or to dismantle. Do have ego, as well as moments I want to be
special too. But if it comes to worshipping and being mind fucked: Just not that special.
Do agree with you if it comes to the possibility there are people worth following their work out there. But in themean time will follow my own instincts. I have seen to many of this shams without even being any ones
follower myself; its just no fun anymore. You start with admiring and being inspired by a person for certain
reasons and end up being conned.
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #255 - on: 26.04.2011 at 20:55 [UT+1] »Fauve, I'm so glad you said all of that... i too was stuck healing an injury... for many months, it turned out. I
thought what you said about getting tired when you listened to her was very interesting... for me personally, I
tend to tune out so much of what she said, since she droned on in that sing-song voice, that I can't say I felt
tired... I think instead I felt drugged. Now, I was taking so many pain-killers at the time, I just assumed thatwas my normal response to anything
but then after I healed and got off the pain-killers, I found that if I
listened to her, I still felt drugged...!! Not a good sign.
So then I thought... ah, this woman has "mesmerizing rising," possibly h on the ASC, I have no idea, but theability to be a true snake charmer. I should say that I never gave her or her cause any money or anything like
that; I certainly never went to where she was and sat in her audience. I just watched her online at times.
However, when I "promote" someone on one of my blogs, I do like for them to be what they say they are. I
hate promoting something or something that it later turns out was a total con-job.
I think it's very sad that we ever find gurus, or shamans, or spiritual leaders, go through the process of putting
them up on a pedestal simply because we have a need to connect to the divine, a need driven by something
good and pure inside of us, which is then perverted, and then we feel like we were the ones who screwed up,
leaving us open to thoughts of bitterness and self-doubt. Personally, I don't think we should saddle ourselveswith those feelings; we came into the relationship hoping we'd finally found some kind of "answer" to what is avalid quest, only to find the other person is not only human, but merely human. And so we end up feelingused. I just think, as someone else pointed out, we need to get beyond the desire to find the thing we'relooking for, the immanent (the philosophical and metaphysical theory of divine presence), in someone else. I
think our need to see the divine manifest in someone's form is misplaced, and is destined to set us up fordisappointment.
In other words, human beings are interesting to me at least partially because we seem to need to makemanifest that which cannot be seen or felt or apprehended by our physical senses. Yet we keep trying andcontinue being disappointed when we cannot make someone who is mere mortal adhere to the rules ofgodliness, which relies on egolessness and spirituality.
This, I believe, is why the 12th house is so often implicated in spiritual leaders who are set up, or who set
themselves up, on this pedestal, but this gets really complicated and is worthy of further discussion, in myopinion.
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Ms. Miranda
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #256 - on: 26.04.2011 at 22:41 [UT+1] »Kiesha Crowther: She's a devout reader of the anonymous book "An Impersonal Life" I imagine. I never heardof her before, so I looked up one of her talks and it seemed like she was spouting that book verbatim.

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Moirae

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #257 - on: 26.04.2011 at 23:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 25.04.2011 at 22:24 [UT+1]:
The 20th century was not a simple time and place. The 21st seems much simpler.
- Ed

And hopefully we'll bliss to some Nirvana, while our kids take up the 21st century gauntlet. That is our role as

Posts: 2570
Gender:their mentors, I suppose ? We have been a privileged sub-generation. My nods and respect if you served in
Nam/Thailand/Cambodia. I don't presume that my teenagers will have it so easy. I do agree that the first halfof the 20th century was a "plagued and rapidly changing event" on many levels. Having grown up in thatperspective, I do expect Armageddon around every small corner ! My parents grew up as kids starving through
WWII. They are retired, and hoard toilet paper, and their pantries are more full of food than anything I
experienced as their kid. We have several family members serving in Iraq-Afghanistan now and for several
years. The scent of death, and the meaning of life surrounds each moment of our days.
I don't have a guru for this. My kids and I are talking Buddhism together. They're 13 and 15. This is an
important touchstone, before more matters in the universe go haywire for them, as they're discovering theirown philosophies of harmonic unity ... while other global matters set off the political, geological and cultural
alarms.
It aint over 'til it's over, Ed !
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Ed Falis
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #258 - on: 26.04.2011 at 23:50 [UT+1] »I did say and mean "simpler", not "more pleasant" or "easier".
- Ed
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MoiraeMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #259 - on: 27.04.2011 at 00:20 [UT+1] »Ed, You're absolutely right.
Pluto in Cap and Saturn in Libra and Uranus in Aries cuttin' to the Cardinal core.
Life is proving itself in its "stripped-down planes". What are our bare essentials ?
How do we live more simply in a most vexing and complicated modern world ?
Thank you for this "adjustment"!
M.
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #260 - on: 27.04.2011 at 00:29 [UT+1] »Glad we understand each other.

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MoiraeMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #261 - on: 27.04.2011 at 00:45 [UT+1] »Always have.
M.

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MountainMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #262 - on: 27.04.2011 at 01:44 [UT+1] »I always put the success of these phony white "gurus" who claim "tribal" connections, down to the spiritual
impoverishment of white culture. Let's face it, other religions, anything, seems so much more glamorous thanwhite culture...

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Cherubrie

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #263 - on: 27.04.2011 at 08:27 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 19.04.2011 at 19:02 [UT+1]:
I see that no one has mentioned The Secret yet.
Is it too much of a can of worms maybe? I think that we all know that Rhonda Byrne did not invent anything new, as the secret ofimaging our desires is the literally the oldest in the book - The Bible. It is also the theme of most of the spiritual revival of the 1880s,
New Thought In Mentalism and our current New Age era. All the vaguely metaphysical gurus like Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, Byron Katieand Eckhart Tolle base their particular philosophies on this so called "law" of consciousness - The Law Of

Attraction.
I saw a great interview with Dan Brown, author of The Da Vinci Code, about his latest books, The Lost Symbol and The Solomon Key. I
think that he has acted the role of a sort of guru for esoteric/occult teachings in rather a nice way - through entertainment. He has given
people the choice to do their own research into secret societies like the Freemasons, without actually having to join and take vows of
secrecy.

Also, does anyone have an comment of NLP - Neuro Linguistic Programming?
Posts: 724
Gender:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
What about Binaural Beats - also called Hemisync - inducing alpha, delta and theta states in the brain through wearing a pair ofheadphones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats
Both these ideas have their schools, paid lessons, retreats and charismatic speakers. The Aquarian Age is full of them. Very different fromthe Piscean Age, where Jesus or Mohammad were meant to be the sole teachers of the important stuff.

In regards to the law of attraction, i thinkprior to 'The Secret' was the book 'The amazing power ofdeliberate Intent; Living the art of allowing', by Esther and Jeremy Hicks (The teachings of Abraham). Verysimilar.
NLP came through as a guise with a very close girlfriend who was working for a large company some sort of self
improvement workshop for all staff. She had changed within a fortnight her entire value system, cut off fromfamily and friends, including me and then married a phsycotherapist.
What is it called when there is that energy in large crowds that somehow they can win over all the vulnerable
impressionable people?
Due to this i am wary of some personal improvement groups that mainly target big corporations?
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Fauve
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #264 - on: 27.04.2011 at 08:33 [UT+1] »Beyond the Stars
I actually said it politely: Kiesha Crowther wires me out… She actually also is a master in turn a rounds. On
stage she is very clever in making herself small and letting everybody know it’s up to them: They are cocreator; of incredible importance if it comes to loving Mother Earth. She herself is nothing and modest andloves you all so dearly for the sake of The Mother because you are her saviours and Kiesha is so grateful for allof your Great I AM presence ($$$$$$$). Being your wisdom keeper and a 33 years old Shaman; which iscomplete bogus based on the development of the Kundalini alone ,-makes her cry even. But here it comes: She
is not your Guru; You are your Guru. Live from the heart: You are all loved and the divine presence yourself.
Mother Earth loves your contributions and will keep you safe and warm for ever.
At the same time as small as she is: All the indigenous community’s in the world were waiting for Kiesha. She
has been initiated and recognized as the wisdom keeper for the Northern American continent by Indians fromthe North American as well as the South American continents: The Maori’s, Aboriginals and even the highest
Lama’s from Tibet… Everybody acknowledges and loves Kiesha; her claims are absurd and beyond narcissism.
I would love to take a look at her chart.
People are buying into this because everybody is confused and spiritually wounded (Chiron in Pisces) these days
and spirituality is a beautiful thing and we all want to be part of solving the problem without having to become
ugly and angry for all the right reasons. I can’t blame people for perusing and exploring spirituality, but it is sadthat there are so many cons out there taking advantage of this. The 12th house is interesting in this context: It
also is the house of con-jobs…
MonkeyKiesha is planning a trip to Australia: She has an important appointment with the Aboriginals to put somecrystals back into the earth again.
To help the Great Mother finding back her balance .
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2871.1035

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Evolving

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #265 - on: 27.04.2011 at 09:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Fauve on 27.04.2011 at 08:33 [UT+1]:
Kiesha Crowther [...] I would love to take a look at her chart.

Her birthdate: Feb. 17th, same as friend, how I remember.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #266 - on: 27.04.2011 at 09:38 [UT+1] »Identification and Characteristics of Spiritual Truth, Integrous Teachers, and Teachings
From Truth vs. Falsehood; David R.Hawkins:
1. Universality: Truth is true at all times and places, independent of culture, personalities, or circumstances.
2. Nonexclusionary: Truth is all-inclusive, nonsecretive, and non sectarian.
3. Availability: It is open to all; nonexclusive. There are no secrets to be revealed, hidden, or sold, and no
magical formulas or 'mysteries'.
4. Integrity of purpose: There is nothing to gain or lose.
5. Nonsectarian: Truth is not the exposition of limitation.
6. Independent of opinion: Truth is nonlinear and not subject to the limitations of intellect or form.
7. Devoid of Positionality: Truth is not 'anti' anything. Falsehood and ignorance are not its enemies but merely
represent its absence.
8. No requirements or demands: There are no required memberships, dues, regulations. oaths, rules or
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Gender:conditions.
9. Noncontrolling: Spiritual purity has no interest in the personal lives of aspirants, or in clothing, dress style,sex lives, economics, family patterns, lifestyles, or dietary habits.
10. Free of force or intimidation: There is no brainwashing, adulasion of leaders, training rituals,
indoctrinations, or intrusions into private life.
11. Nonbinding: There are no regulations,laws, edicts, contracts, or pledges.
12. Freedom: Participants are free to come and go without persuasion, coercion, intimidation, or consequences.
There is no hierarchy; instead, there is voluntary fulfillment of practical necessities and duties.
13. Commonality: Recognition is a consequence of what one has become rather than a result of ascribed titles,
adjectives, or trappings.
14. Inspirational: Truth eschews and avoids glamorization, seduction, and theatrics.
15. Nonmaterialistic: Truth is devoid of neediness of worldly wealth, prestige, pomp, or edifices.
16. Self-fulfilling: Truth is already total and complete and has no need to proselytize or gain adherents,
followers, or 'sign up members'.
17. Detached: There is noninvolvement in world affairs.
18. Benign: Truth is identifiable along a progressive gradient. It has no 'opposite' and therefore no 'enemies' to
castigate or oppose.
19. Nonintentional: Truth does not intervene or have an agenda to propose, inflict, or promulgate.
20. Nondualistic: All transpires by virtue of intrinsic potentiality manifests as actuality rather than by 'cause'and effect.
21. Tranquility and Peace: There are no 'issues' or partialities. There is no desire to change others or impose onsociety. The effect of higher energies is innate and not dependent on propagation or effort. God does not needhelp anymore than gravity needs the 'help' of an apple's falling off the tree.
22. Equality: This is expressed in reverence for all of life in all its expressions and merely avoids that which isdeleterious rather than opposing it.
23. Nontemporality: Life is realized to be eternal and physicality to be a temporality. Life is not subject todeath.
24. Beyond Proof: That which is 'provable' is linear, limited,and a product of intellectualization and mentation.
Reality needs no agreement. Reality is not an acquisition but instead is a purely spontaneous, subjective
realization when the positionalities of the dualistic ego are surrendered.
25. Mystical: The origination of truth is a spontaneous effulgence, radiance, and illumination, which is the
Revelation that replaces the illusion of a separate individual self, the ego, and its mentation.
26. Ineffable: Not capable of definition. Radical subjectivity is experiental. It is a condition that replaces theformer. With this event, context replaces content, devoid of temporality and beyond time. Reality does notexist in time, nor of it, beyond it, nor outside of it, and it has no relationship to that which is an artiface ofmentation. It is therefore beyond all nouns, adjectives, or verbs, transitive or intransitive.
27. Simplistic: One sees the intrinsic beauty and perfection of all that exists beyond appearance and form.
28. Affirmative: Truth is beyond opinion or provability. Confirmation is purely by its subjective awareness;
however, it is identifiable by consciousness calibration techniques.
29. Nonoperative: Truth does not 'do' anything or 'cause' anything; it is everything.
30. Invitational: As contrasted with promotional or persuasive.
31. Nonpredictive: Because Reality is nonlinear, it cannot be localized or encoded in restriction of form, such as
secret messages, codes, numbers, and inscriptions, or hidden in runes, stones, the dimensions of the pyramid,
the DNA, or the nostril hairs of the camel. Truth has no secrets. The Reality of God is omnipresent and beyond
codification or exclusivity. Codes are indicative of man's imagination and not the capriciousness of Divinity.
32. Nonsentimental: Emotionality is based on perception. Compassion results from the discernment of truth.
33. Nonauthoritarian: There are no rules or dictates to be followed.
34. Non-egoistic: Teachers are respected but reject personal adulation or specialness.
35. Educational: Provides information in a variety of formats and ensures availability.
36. Self-supporting: Neither mercenary nor materialistic.
37. Freestanding: Complete without dependence on external or historical authorities.
38. Natural: Devoid of induced, altered status of consciousness or manipulations of energies by artificial
exercises, postures, breathing, or dietary rituals.

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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #267 - on: 27.04.2011 at 10:34 [UT+1] »Not to rag on this poor woman, Kiesha Crowther, who is clearly deluded (and in my day, she said, sounding
increasingly crickety, like old wood bending in the gale force, would have been put into a home for the mentally
wayward) but she has also gotten crystals out of the ice up in northern Lappland, where in fact, crystals do not
grow. Crystals only grow in living rock, not in ice (for anyone who requires a recap of Geology 101). I find thisstuff out from reading Wikipedia, the font of immediate wizdom on the internets.
Meanwhile, while she's rescuing them from or returning crystals to, I can't remember which, their indigenous"homeland," she is indeed raking in the shekels for her performances.
so... this is why those of us who happen to believe in the simplest words of Jesus Christ and a few otherspiritual teachers tend to get really irritated and bitter about fake practitioners. To be honest, I don't knowwhat a snake oil salesman would have to say to convince me he was Jesus the Christ reincarnated, but that's
what it would take for me to follow him. The thing is, I am not in any way a Jesus freak, I just like the simple
things that he (supposedly) said, and have found those simple tenets to be enough. I don't really feel the needfor a living human to guide me or show me the way to the beach.... I guess I should have said straight out that
I am not looking for a guru because I already follow a particular path, but since I'm pretty clumsy, I do fall off
it from time to time.
I often wonder (this is just a personal aside mostly to me or to anyone who has this positon too) but I have a
few aspects to I in the 10th, and the question or issue of faith has always been a large part of my life. I have

GqI from the 1st to the 10th, and DmJqI from the 8th to the 10th. Of course, I have my nefarious AoI
from the 7th to the 10th, the aspect (from the 7th to the 10th) that would most likely incline you to seek aspiritual leader, it seems to me, and then be disappointed in "discovering" his feet of clay. However, this isprecisely why I like St. Augustine, because he was a fallen-away from the faith sinner, and he had to go througha long, internal process to rediscover his faith and find redemption. There's something about this kind of
suffering that we Catholics find purifying.
This is also why I liked the story of Lucifer, which became associated with the fallen angel who was later turned
into the Devil, and then became associated with Saturn, because here is a being or entity fallen due to the sinof pride away from his faith, who needed redemption. What will he do? Will he reign in Hell for all eternity? Willhe make up his disagreement with God? See? It's a soap opera of epic proportions.
For all these reasons, false prophets are annoying to me, and self-indulgent gurus who make a lot of money off
their flock are like fool's gold.
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Fauve
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #268 - on: 27.04.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1] »Those crystals she claims to have from the ice in northern Lapland truly were great vocab to me. I hate toadmit it,but if I wouldn’t have passed out after watching her video’s for two minutes; I might as well havefallen for that one. I have a thing with stones (pebbles even) since early childhood: Those crystals sounded
totally cool to me.
Good con artists have their ways with making you believe the unbelievable.
Questions of faith do pop up all the time with my position and aspects of the Nodes and with Pluto as theruler of my South Node into the 9th: My path have been paved with people making me standing my ground if
it comes to my beliefs. In fact if I would have asked 1$ to every person who tried to talk me into a guild trip forhaving feelings in general: Not to mention those who tried to make me believe my positive feelings were a total
mind trip of my own; I could buy the Hop(i)e Diamond today and burry it into the soil of my hometown tohelp Mother Earth out. Being surrounded with the usual suspects as my followers to dig it up again as soon as I
leave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_Diamond
It is a soap opera of epic proportions and will be continued.
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Apostrophe

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #269 - on: 27.04.2011 at 17:51 [UT+1] »What is interesting to me is why we have so many fraudulent or seemingly batty gurus/New Age teachers thesedays, many of them female. The male ones are easier to explain in terms of power drives, with those following
them in order (maybe?) to make up for a sense of alienation and insignificance. Secrecy is certainly a big
motivator for some joiners, as it gives a sense of power, maybe to counteract a host of psychological complexes
formed in childhood.

Posts: 2454

But I think there's a historical reason for the female upsurge, and that is simply the times in which we live. In
the Piscean Age, women were not given access to the same education as men, and were very much regarded
not for their minds, but for their childbearing role, motherly and nurturing roles, and especially for their sexual
faithfulness and monogamy. The whole Christian myth is built around the importance of the Virgin Mary,
Muslim women are to this day kept in bags/burkas and stoned for sexual infidelity, the Bible starts off with Evebeing the one who succumbs to temptation by the serpent/devil and then tempts Adam. And of course, Moses,
Jesus and Mohammad were all men.
I was reading The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran yesterday in my lunch hour at work, and sure enough, after a mindblowing burst of really beautiful, poetic thoughts about the deeper meaning of subjects such as love, marriage,
work, joy and sorrow, prayer and death, the last line of the book says:"A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me."Is that all women were worth - to bear male prophets?
I think we are seeing a rise in female teachers as the occult/esoteric/psychological meanings of these religious
myths are at last being realized. The female part of God/The Universe is the subconscious mind, and what theseteachers, with their Secret, crystals and rituals are trying to teach is the same thing as the old Pisceanteachings, but without the dogma - more from their personal experiences. There are men teaching thistechnique too - for example Wayne Dyer - as one does not have to female to realize that we all have a
subconscious mind, but I do think that women are now reclaiming their natural symbolism of this part of thehuman and divine psyche because they are trying to make up for 2000 years of submission to the malesymbolized self-conscious mind.
The attempts have had mixed reception, IMO, because mastery of our minds is not simply realizing that wehave a female part of it. I think the initial realization that these gurus have had, and then try to project on theirfollowers is the process illustrated by The Tower in tarot (please see copyright-free image below). The real workof mastery comes after that, and is a process of initiation, whereby we learn to control the subconscious/animal
nature through testing out the principles of consciousness on our own in real life, without a guru. Perhaps theDavid Ickes and Dorothy Leons of this world are just the initial awakeners to jolt people out of the illusioncaused by a sole reliance on the senses and to the physical world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1kpNHAx3zU&feature=channel_video_title

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tower_003.jpg (attachment deleted)
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Vetiver
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #270 - on: 27.04.2011 at 18:25 [UT+1] »Kiesha Crowther;what a sweetheart, the real mcoy,the heart of an angel and selfless to;not greedy, all about
service to & for the greater good and advancement of the collective; something a good hearted Astrologer
might know a thing or two about.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #271 - on: 27.04.2011 at 19:14 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 27.04.2011 at 17:51 [UT+1]:
What is interesting to me is why we have so many fraudulent or seemingly batty gurus/New Age teachers these days, many of themfemale. The male ones are easier to explain in terms of power drives, with those following them in order (maybe?) to make up for asense of alienation and insignificance. Secrecy is certainly a big motivator for some joiners, as it gives a sense of power, maybe tocounteract a host of psychological complexes formed in childhood.
But I think there's a historical reason for the female upsurge, and that is simply the times in which we live. In the Piscean Age, women
were not given access to the same education as men, and were very much regarded not for their minds, but for their childbearing role,motherly and nurturing roles, and especially for their sexual faithfulness and monogamy. The whole Christian myth is built around theimportance of the Virgin Mary, Muslim women are to this day kept in bags/burkas and stoned for sexual infidelity, the Bible starts off with
Eve being the one who succumbs to temptation by the serpent/devil and then tempts Adam. And of course, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad
were all men.
I was reading The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran yesterday in my lunch hour at work, and sure enough, after a mind-blowing burst of really
beautiful, poetic thoughts about the deeper meaning of subjects such as love, marriage, work, joy and sorrow, prayer and death, the lastline of the book says:"A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me."Is that all women were worth - to bear male prophets?
I think we are seeing a rise in female teachers as the occult/esoteric/psychological meanings of these religious myths are at last being
realized. The female part of God/The Universe is the subconscious mind, and what these teachers, with their Secret, crystals and rituals
are trying to teach is the same thing as the old Piscean teachings, but without the dogma - more from their personal experiences. There
are men teaching this technique too - for example Wayne Dyer - as one does not have to female to realize that we all have a
subconscious mind, but I do think that women are now reclaiming their natural symbolism of this part of the human and divine psyche
because they are trying to make up for 2000 years of submission to the male-symbolized self-conscious mind.
The attempts have had mixed reception, IMO, because mastery of our minds is not simply realizing that we have a female part of it. I
think the initial realization that these gurus have had, and then try to project on their followers is the process illustrated by The Tower intarot (please see copyright-free image below). The real work of mastery comes after that, and is a process of initiation, whereby we learn
to control the subconscious/animal nature through testing out the principles of consciousness on our own in real life, without a guru.
Perhaps the David Ickes and Dorothy Leons of this world are just the initial awakeners to jolt people out of the illusion caused by a solereliance on the senses and to the physical world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1kpNHAx3zU&feature=channel_video_title"A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me."Your anger at this out of line. There was no harm done and no harm meant. If we live again, it is a person of
female gender who will bear us. You really need to get over that. This is resentment way out of bounds.
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #272 - on: 27.04.2011 at 19:22 [UT+1] »Stephen, I listen with some real interest to many of the things you're saying in this thread, because apparently
you have real life experience with your ex-wife, who, apparently, was involved with an actual cult. So I thinkthat your perspective is quite valuable.
However, you're going to have to show me where real world has expressed anything like true anger that is "outof line" in the above post you've quoted. I don't see it. I also think that women have a right to feel resentment
about many of the things we feel resentment for, just like men have a right to feel resentment about the things
they feel resentment for. I think expressions of resentment are not equivalent to true anger, but if real world or
anyone else has expressed anger elsewhere about the same subject, it wouldn't surprise me. So in other words,
if you're noticing a theme of someone's, I would tell you that i notice a theme in your life, just like I'm surepeople notice a theme in mine. We're all struggling with something or other.
I personally prefer honest expressions of anger to keeping emotions under wraps, nor do I think there's
anything wrong with expressing your feelings. It's better than bottling them up, as I'm sure you know.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #273 - on: 27.04.2011 at 19:37 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 27.04.2011 at 19:22 [UT+1]:
Stephen, I listen with some real interest to many of the things you're saying in this thread, because apparently you have real life
experience with your ex-wife, who, apparently, was involved with an actual cult. So I think that your perspective is quite valuable.
However, you're going to have to show me where real world has expressed anything like true anger that is "out of line" in the above post
you've quoted. I don't see it. I also think that women have a right to feel resentment about many of the things we feel resentment for,just like men have a right to feel resentment about the things they feel resentment for. I think expressions of resentment are notequivalent to true anger, but if real world or anyone else has expressed anger elsewhere about the same subject, it wouldn't surprise me.
So in other words, if you're noticing a theme of someone's, I would tell you that i notice a theme in your life, just like I'm sure people
notice a theme in mine. We're all struggling with something or other.
I personally prefer honest expressions of anger to keeping emotions under wraps, nor do I think there's anything wrong with expressing
your feelings. It's better than bottling them up, as I'm sure you know.

Its not about rights. I said nothing about rights. Resentment is anger. btw. Anger at the fact that all beings
will be born at all times to a female is way off the chain. Might as well be angry about our mortality, angry at
sunrise, angry at the vacuum in outer space.
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100thMonkey
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #274 - on: 27.04.2011 at 22:42 [UT+1] »Quote from Fauve on 27.04.2011 at 08:33 [UT+1]:
Kiesha is planning a trip to Australia: She has an important appointment with the Aboriginals to put some crystals back into the earth
again.

Posts: 900

To help the Great Mother finding back her balance .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2871.1035

Oh great! Aboriginal culture is generally very wary of crystals, quartz etc. Medicine men and assasins use themfor deadly purposes. They wouldn't even want to touch a stone from someone elses land, let alone pick one up.
Someone might have left it there, infused with magic and be coming back to pick it up. It is a real no-no totake stones away from places and bad things happen to those who are stupid enough to do so. Its white people
who think they have rights to pick up stones and take them away from Country. There is a room at the park at
Ulluru (Ayers Rock) full of pieces of the rock that every day people send back from all over the world. They are
told not to take pieces of the rock away, (as well as being asked not to climb the sacred rock) but they do, andmany of them later send these rocks back.
« Last Edit: 28.04.2011 at 20:17 [UT+1] by 100thMonkey »Back to top

IP Logged~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #275 - on: 27.04.2011 at 22:49 [UT+1] »... culture is a conditioning, language is a conditioning, the beliefs are a conditioning, the sex is also a
conditioning, we are dependant of a multitude of conditionings...
The matter is not to know why a "guru" is most of the time a man... the question is to know if we will accept
the help offered by a guru (his form is secondary) or if we prefer staying stuck in our heads to play with ideas
or even worse.
... we have differences, but we are all alive, we all breathe. The same breath... and we do fight for ideas andsome conditionings... mine is better than yours...
Money also is one of the greatest conditionings that we have created... the distinctions are created both by themen and the women... and that is true that we can be born male or female... but who makes the difference andwhy ?
we make the difference... we have been educated to make the difference, what we haven't been educated to do,
is to see beyond the differences... to acknowledge how we are all similar.
... our life is dependant of one breath in fact... not of one idea. And we all breath right now... this is whatmakes us so similar.... but for some reasons, many among us will continue to think that they are differents...
and the wars will continue, on various scales.
... man, woman... rich, poor... young/old... educated/not educated... black/white... communist/capitalist.... andso on....
this is why we really need a guru... "gu" for darkness... "ru" for light... a guru leads a person from the darkness
to the light, from the ignorance to the knowledge... the supreme knowledge that is inside of each one of us,
independently of all the conditionings that we may have...
In this age of Kali yuga, I suggest to be carefull in what we wish, what we desire, what we think and even what
we can say or write... there a lot of power behind a single sound... The sound that comes from within... also
called "Sat Naam".
Thanks for this topic Beyond the Stars
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100thMonkey
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #276 - on: 27.04.2011 at 22:55 [UT+1] »Quote:
18. Benign: Truth is identifiable along a progressive gradient. It has no 'opposite' and therefore no 'enemies' to castigate or oppose.

Posts: 900

I dont think Wikileaks detractors would agree with thisBack to top
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #277 - on: 27.04.2011 at 22:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 27.04.2011 at 19:14 [UT+1]:
Your anger at this out of line. There was no harm done and no harm meant. If we live again, it is a person of female gender who will bearus. You really need to get over that. This is resentment way out of bounds.

You are the one who is saying that I am angry, Stephen, not me. I am neither angry nor resentful - justexpressing my opinion on a forum. You have taken my quote from Kahlil Gibran completely out of context
Posts: 2454

from the whole post above, especially the paragraph before the quote, in which I was describing the role andsymbolism of women in the Bible.
Of course children will always be born to women, but this was not what my whole post was about. I was talking
about women's role as gurus/spiritual teachers, which seems to be more prevalent in our modern times than it
was in the Piscean Age. As stated above, I think this is because of our recent (post Freud) psychologicalunderstanding of the subconscious mind.

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #278 - on: 27.04.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1] »I'm not absolutely certain I believe in the 'subconscious mind' idea. The subconscious mind does not literally
exist, any more than the soul does. It's a metaphor for something else we find hard to explain otherwise.

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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #279 - on: 27.04.2011 at 23:19 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 27.04.2011 at 22:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from Fauve on 27.04.2011 at 08:33 [UT+1]:
MonkeyKiesha is planning a trip to Australia: She has an important appointment with the Aboriginals to put some crystals backinto the earth again.

To help the Great Mother finding back her balance .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2871.1035

Oh great! Aboriginal culture is generally very wary of crystals, quartz etc. Medicine men and kadaitcha (assasins) men use them for deadly
purposes. They wouldn't even want to touch a stone from someone elses land, let alone pick one up. Someone might have left it there,
infused with magic and be coming back to pick it up. It is a real no-no to take stones away from places and bad things happen to those
who are stupid enough to do so. Its white people who think they have rights to pick up stones and take them away from Country. There isa room at the park at Ulluru (Ayers Rock) full of pieces of the rock that every day people send back from all over the world. They are told
not to take pieces of the rock away, but they do, and many of them later send these rocks back.

I know: Her claims are so over the top delusional. Its hard to believe she's seriously makes them. But she does.
ADDED: I don't know exactly where she is going to dig all the Crystals back into the earth again. But she iscoming to Australia and does claim to have this special assignment to burry Crystals back into the earth atcertain places in the world. She did mention planning a ceremony with the Aboriginals or the Maori's within thiscontext. I don't exactly remember.
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IP Logged~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #280 - on: 27.04.2011 at 23:41 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 27.04.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1]:
I'm not absolutely certain I believe in the 'subconscious mind' idea. The subconscious mind does not literally exist, any more than the souldoes. It's a metaphor for something else we find hard to explain otherwise.

According to Wikipedia explanations...
the following expressions are interpreted as being identical to "Naam":"Naad", "Akash Bani", and "Sruti" in the Vedas"Nada" and "Udgit" in the Upanishads"Logos" and "Word" in the New Testament"Tao" by Lao Zi"Music of the Spheres" by Pythagoras"Sraosha" by Zoraster"Kalma" and "Kalam-i-Qadim" in the Qur'an"Naam", "Akhand Kirtan" and "Sacha ('True') Shabd" by Guru Granth Sahib
Some people refer to this inner energy as the soul
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #281 - on: 28.04.2011 at 00:20 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 27.04.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1]:
I'm not absolutely certain I believe in the 'subconscious mind' idea. The subconscious mind does not literally exist, any more than the souldoes. It's a metaphor for something else we find hard to explain otherwise.

Actually the subconscous mind does exist in far more tangible terms than the idea of soul, and we don't haveto believe in it; the term subconscious mind has a scientific correlate in the human body's nervous system,
Posts: 2454

which is divided into the sympathetic and parapsympathetic systems. The former enables all of our selfconscious actions - what we are aware of, whereas the latter enables all the systems that have become
instinctual, or subconscious - like breathing, or the heart pumping blood around our bodies, or all the repair
jobs that go on in our bodies during sleep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system
The part of our brains that house the so-called sub-conscious mind is also quite well defined and separate fromthe part which houses our intellect and self-conscious mind - the frontal cortex. Memory, for example is held in
the hippocampus, whereas the involuntary functions mentioned above are coordinated from the medulla orbrain stem.
So it's not just part of an iceberg image thought up by Freud - or one of those Eastern terms, or a particularsort of "energy".

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #282 - on: 28.04.2011 at 01:14 [UT+1] »No, actually, this is what I meant, but I'm typing on a computer that was dropped earlier today, so it's nowonder I'm misunderstood:
The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly
limits its significance as a definition-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided inacademic and scientific settings.
In everyday speech and popular writing, however, the term is very commonly encountered as a layperson's
replacement for the unconscious mind, which in Freud's opinion is a repository for socially unacceptable ideas,
wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of
psychological repression. However, the contents do not necessarily have to be solely negative. In thepsychoanalytic view, the unconscious is a force that can only be recognized by its effects—it expresses itself inthe symptom. Unconscious thoughts are not directly accessible to ordinary introspection, but are supposed tobe capable of being "tapped" and "interpreted" by special methods and techniques such as meditation, random
association, dream analysis, and verbal slips (commonly known as a Freudian slip), examined and conductedduring psychoanalysis. Carl Jung developed the concept further. He divided the unconscious into two parts: thepersonal unconscious and the collective unconscious. The personal unconscious is a reservoir of material thatwas once conscious but has been forgotten or suppressed.
The idea of the "subconscious" as a powerful or potent agency has allowed the term to become prominent in
the New Age and self-help literature, in which investigating or controlling its supposed knowledge or power isseen as advantageous. In the New Age community, techniques such as autosuggestion and affirmations are
believed to harness the power of the subconscious to influence a person's life and real-world outcomes, evencuring sickness. Skeptical Inquirer magazine criticized the lack of falsifiability and testability of these claims.[1]Physicist Ali Alousi, for instance, criticized it as unmeasurable and questioned the likelihood that thoughts canaffect anything outside the head.[2] In addition, critics have asserted that the evidence provided is usually
anecdotal and that, because of the self-selecting nature of the positive reports, as well as the subjective natureof any results, these reports are susceptible to confirmation bias and selection bias.[3]The word "subconscious" is an anglicized version of the French subconscient as coined by the psychologist Pierre
Janet. Janet himself saw the subconscient as active in hypnotic suggestion and as an area of the psyche towhich ideas would be consigned through a process that involved a "splitting" of the mind and a restriction of
the field of consciousness.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #283 - on: 28.04.2011 at 02:32 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 28.04.2011 at 01:14 [UT+1]:
No, actually, this is what I meant, but I'm typing on a computer that was dropped earlier today, so it's no wonder I'm misunderstood:
The term subconscious is used in many different contexts and has no single or precise definition. This greatly limits its significance as adefinition-bearing concept, and in consequence the word tends to be avoided in academic and scientific settings.

Posts: 2454

Thanks for running with this a little longer, even though we're a bit off the topic of gurus and astrology by now.
But like the Soul thread, I think it is sometimes neccessary to jump into these sub-topics in order tounderstand the bigger picture. Thank you also for spelling "its" correctly; you are a person after my grammar
seeking heart. I did read all of your comments on Freud, and agree that the term can only really be understoodby its effects, but thought that this paragraph was most relevant to the idea of the subconscious mind havingsome sort of more tangible meaning:
Quote:The idea of the "subconscious" as a powerful or potent agency has allowed the term to become prominent in the New Age and self-help
literature, in which investigating or controlling its supposed knowledge or power is seen as advantageous. In the New Age community,
techniques such as autosuggestion and affirmations are believed to harness the power of the subconscious to influence a person's lifeand real-world outcomes, even curing sickness. Skeptical Inquirer magazine criticized the lack of falsifiability and testability of theseclaims.[1] Physicist Ali Alousi, for instance, criticized it as unmeasurable and questioned the likelihood that thoughts can affect anythingoutside the head.[2] In addition, critics have asserted that the evidence provided is usually anecdotal and that, because of the selfselecting nature of the positive reports, as well as the subjective nature of any results, these reports are susceptible to confirmation bias
and selection bias.[3]Skeptics and scientists would also say that the placebo effect is probably the best evidence that whatever it isthat we call the subconscious mind, is amenable to suggestion - an idea which has occult derivations. In thePlacebo effect,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
a person in a clinical trial, for example, will seem to heal themselves even though they were given no active
drug, just an inert pill. This has been found to work, even when the person/guinea pig knows that they arereceiving a placebo. IMO, the placebo effect works even in this latter case because the person believes that they
are doing something good for medicine. The concept of a suggestion or belief affecting the subconscous mind
is really no different from what Jesus said - "they faith has made you whole", or more negatively in voodoo or
black magic.
Quote:
The word "subconscious" is an anglicized version of the French subconscient as coined by the psychologist Pierre Janet. Janet himself saw
the subconscient as active in hypnotic suggestion and as an area of the psyche to which ideas would be consigned through a process thatinvolved a "splitting" of the mind and a restriction of the field of consciousness.

Yes, it is mostly a matter of semantics, but since we also have a biological view of the areas in the body where
this subconscious mind is housed (please see my previous post), as well as a Freudian and New Age one, thesplitting or distinction seems sensible.
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danielMember

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #284 - on: 28.04.2011 at 03:55 [UT+1] »i ran into this phrase the other day:For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't believe, no proof is possible.
this thread had been informative and educational, i thank you all for it.
with love, daniel
no i won't say the phrase that creeps out stephan baxter, to whom i apologize.
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IP LoggedCherubrie

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #285 - on: 28.04.2011 at 06:37 [UT+1] »Quote from daniel on 28.04.2011 at 03:55 [UT+1]:
i ran into this phrase the other day:For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't believe, no proof is possible.
this thread had been informative and educational, i thank you all for it.
with love, daniel
no i won't say the phrase that creeps out stephan baxter, to whom i apologize.

Hi Daniel
I haven't heard of that phrase. Lovely. And have to second that, that this thread has been very informative andeducational. Thought i would add a couple more phrases/quotes in align with yours.
Posts: 724
Gender:An uncontrolled mind that is attracted to the world and tries to understand things through reasoning alone will
always remain skeptical and in doubt ~John Davidson 1995
Reason is incapable of grasping transcendent realities ~ Ken Wilber; Eye to Eye, 1983;p.18
For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern ~ William Blake
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind a faithful servant. We have created a society that
honours the servant and has forgotten the gift. ~ Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Mystical experiences come not from a sudden possession of a higher power but by a suspension of the normal
everyday habit of perceiving or knowing. ~ Guy Claxton; Noises from the darkroom. 1994

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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #286 - on: 28.04.2011 at 10:44 [UT+1] »Quote from Vetiver on 27.04.2011 at 18:25 [UT+1]:
Kiesha Crowther;what a sweetheart, the real mcoy,the heart of an angel and selfless to;not greedy, all about service to & for the greater
good and advancement of the collective; something a good hearted Astrologer might know a thing or two about.

If you think sitting behind my computer to warn people with the shoulder injury I have and the pain thatcomes with it, isn’t an act from the heart; you should seriously re-evaluate your concept of what love is.
If you want to cultivate your male hood by sitting in the woods banging on drums in a pay to pray ceremony,protecting poor little Kiesha for the sake of the collective: Go for it!
In the mean time let me and my broken wing decide for myself how I use my heart energy instead of claiming
to know what I should do with it. Kiesha is a con-artist with highly narcissistic tendency’s and she's alreadydebunked down to the bone; if it comes to integrity and telling the truth. But I don‘t think she is a serious
danger anymore...
Byron Katie on the other hand has all the signs of being severally dangerous: We just don’t know because we
don’t have good public education if it comes to Cult Leaders like this. Byron Katie made it high into the top of
the cult list; for all the right reasons, by those who are experts in this field. In fact some of them already arecomparing her with cult leaders like Jim Jones and David koresh. Because all the warning signs are alreadyhere.
Quote: In fact, there are quotes about Byron Katie herself telling a Story about how she would drink a doublesuicide death cocktail with her husband, the self-professed worlds greatest writer.Unquote
Read more: Posted on April 23 2011 by the Anticult http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?
12,12906,page=285
If you look at the transits in Byron Katies chart; if we do have the right time, you can see Tr. Pluto crossing
over the Descendant: You don’t want to know how many times I have seen potentially dangerous people
become truly destructive with this transit. Especially those who were known as very nice people in general but
had a hidden rage under the surface.
Tr. Neptune/Chiron conjunction into the 10th in Aquarius did make a square with her Moon/Mars
conjunction into the 5th, In Scorpio.
Tr. Black Moon Lilith conjunct Uranus in Aries just made an opposition with Neptune: Ruler of her
10th house into the 4th, in Libra.
Tr. Saturn is going trough the 4rth; Which might be a good grounder into the complete transit process.
Lets hope it is because there is a lot of pressure on Katie, these days. Even though I do have to admit notknowing the truth about Katie either: There are a lot of serious concerns if it comes to Byron Katie, her staff aswell as her work.
Chart posted on page 5, post 81 on this thread.
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100thMonkey

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #287 - on: 28.04.2011 at 11:19 [UT+1] »This is very bizarre therapy from the above link re BK
Quote:
Posts: 900

With many reservations, I attended her 9 day school. We were sworn to secrecy about the events that go on there so as not to "spoil it forothers" who would attend in the future. I've written about my experiences there, for my own sanity, and while I will spare you the gorydetails, I will offer a small list of things that happen there.
1. A forced 36 hour fast.
2. An day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were instructed not
to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.
3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock. Vomiting was a regular occurrence, and was offered as "evidence" ofcleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.
4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)
5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)
7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one could trust theirown perceptions anymore

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Vetiver
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #288 - on: 28.04.2011 at 14:03 [UT+1] »To Fauve,
You got it all wrong sister,try looking a little deeper. I have experience with Kiesha, so i know what she is about.
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Fauve

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #289 - on: 28.04.2011 at 14:23 [UT+1] »One can only hope so. Time will tell: I’ll apologize later.

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MyriosEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #290 - on: 28.04.2011 at 15:21 [UT+1] »Quote from CHERUBRIE on 28.04.2011 at 06:37 [UT+1]:[edit]An uncontrolled mind that is attracted to the world and tries to understand things through reasoning alone will always remain skeptical andin doubt ~John Davidson 1995
Reason is incapable of grasping transcendent realities ~ Ken Wilber; Eye to Eye, 1983;p.18

For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern ~ William Blake
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind a faithful servant. We have created asociety that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift. ~ Albert Einstein (1879-1955)[edit]

Thanks for these four.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #291 - on: 28.04.2011 at 16:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Vetiver on 28.04.2011 at 14:03 [UT+1]:
To Fauve,
You got it all wrong sister, try looking a little deeper. I have experience with Kiesha, so i know what she is about.

I think you might consider that same sage advice.
I'm just saying... Be careful who you over identify with, project yourself upon and jump to defend. They may
not be capable of returning the favor.

Posts: 3684
Gender:

The most you can offer is that you enjoyed your experience of her. You don't "know" her. No one ever knows aguru. Not ever. You dehumanize them by giving them positive qualities you need them to have and notconsider they are flawed humans who are not what you think they are. They are what you want them to be,need them to be. You're not defending Crowther. You're defending your belief in her that makes you feel safeand valuable. So the big question is.... If you take it away then what do you have? If you have Self, then you
don't need to defend Crowther. So, in effect, she's useless to you as a guru, if she hasn't taught you that basic
thing about the value of you own life, thoughts and ideas. A guru that has you thinking like them and at thesame time neglects to encourage you to ask yourself, "why do I think that?" has you by the short and curlies,
my friend. That's what we call.... a bad guru.

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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #292 - on: 28.04.2011 at 18:21 [UT+1] »I think the real problem with following blissfully behind someone like Kiesha Crowther is that one gets sucked
into the surface-level presentation, which is like eating candy floss. She is little, she is sweet, she is cute, she ischarming. She has nice teeth. These things all make a huge impression on the emotional, romantic nature ofher followers, who want so badly to believe that the crying over dying dolphins indicates that here is a personof tremendous heart (which I'm sure, on one level, Kiesha Crowther has). The problem for those who are notensnared in the sticky emotional web of crying and caring about dying things, is that the facts of the situation
undermine her other, more 'exalted' messages.
Something else to keep in mind is that if you have nothing to hide and you set yourself up as a public figure,then being questioned, criticized, or in some other way, doubted, should not upset you, surprise you, or evenirritate you—not if you're truly a spiritual leader others can legitimately look up to.
You know you've got a bad spiritual leader, one who isn't what they say they are, when they insist on telling
you how to live your life; they judge you, rather than accept you are where you are on your path; they refuse
to listen, with an open mind, to criticism; they scapegoat, blaming their followers for their own trials andtribulations.
The question of money and funding just makes these problems worse, it seems to me. A lot of how and why
spiritual leaders are questioned in the first place comes down to one simple equation: when people believe in
you and your message, whatever it is (political, spiritual, Reptilian) they tend to throw money at you. When themoney, adulation, fame, and glory start to go to your head, you've got a problem.
The facts of her life are here:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/01/11/18668858.php
Here are a few paragraphs from that article:
The (All White) Tribe of Many Colors
Why would a self styled “shaman” who spent most of two years claiming Native elders authorized her suddenly
claims to have never been doing Native teachings? Numerous family and friends of Crowther’s followers, as well
as former followers, began to ask Native activists about the authenticity of her claims. By September of 2010,
the chorus of criticism began to rise and put Crowther and her management on the defensive.
Crowther’s following she dubbed the Tribe of Many Colors has some striking characteristics. It has absolutely no
Native members at all (including Crowther.) Outside of a member of Crowther’s management team, all seem tobe exclusively white. Much like the Tea Party, they are also prone to throwing around the claim that they are
hated supposedly for being white.
Such a claim falls apart because many of her critics are themselves white, especially former followers. The claim
is even more striking because of the racism in some of the imagery and words used by Crowther and her “tribe.”
In one trip to Sweden, Crowther spoke about the alleged superiority of Swedish people over all others.
Crowther frequently claims all Native elders, or even all Native people, are supporting her, waiting for her, anddepend upon her and her message even for their very survival. Of course, nothing could be further from thetruth. Most Natives never heard of her. Those that have are strongly opposed to her.
Who is behind Crowther’s rapid rise among New Age leaders? Our source very close to the family says Crowtherhas no computer skills nor business or organizing acumen, nothing that could account for her success except avivid imagination. The same source attributes everything Crowther has done to two people and one group;
Adam DeArmon AKA Adam Yellowbird, a white New Age operator in Sedona; Santa Fe Soul, which sponsors
some of Crowther’s talks; and especially Crowther’s longtime friend Jennifer Ferraro. Our source described
Fierro as a failed performance artist who claims to be Native but is actually Italian and Greek. Online discussions
between Crowther and Ferraro seem to show Ferraro as the real brains of the operation, the power behind thethrone, her manager, website operator, and even her director. Crowther defers to her in public talks, and Ferraro
frequently talks in one messages to Crowther like a mother to a small child.
Our source close to the family is worried the Tribe of Many Colors will "become another Jonestown" and is at aloss for how her family can get her to see sense. Whether the “tribe” self destruct violently is yet to be seen,
but they are extraordinarily intolerant of dissent or criticism of any kind. Its website was heavily censored, withany daring to question Crowther kicked out. Recently their website was so overwhelmed by dealing withcriticism it was taken down entirely. Crowther’s inner circle, especially Ferraro, have begun throwing aroundlegal threats at any who dare to critique Crowther. Ferraro, though she is not a lawyer, sent threats to sue to atleast five people. The “tribe” also sent infiltrators to sites critical to Crowther to gather information on critics.
There are currently plans for a book by Crowther, and two documentaries, one favorable to her and one critical.
There are also ongoing plans for protests of Crowther’s ceremony selling by Native activists and her many nonNative critics. The Salish tribal council is considering legal action. The controversy is not going away.

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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #293 - on: 28.04.2011 at 19:25 [UT+1] »BTS Quote:... the facts of the situation undermine her other, more 'exalted' messages.

Posts: 900

I agree.
Well thanks to this thread, ive had an interesting journey checking out these two women. Fascinating. Have alook at the two videos of Keisha and see how her story and accent has changed
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread632243/pg1

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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #294 - on: 28.04.2011 at 19:32 [UT+1] »Oh, 100th Monkey, I meant to say, thanks for posting the above list on the "events" at the Byron Katie fest. I
should really look into Byron Katie; I keep hearing her name, and now I am curious.
I also wanted to say to poor Daniel who is clearly a nice person, you don't have to apologize to Stephen.
can dish it out, so he needs to be able to take it. As do I.

He

However, I do encourage all acts of vituperation aimed at me, to come through PM; it's so much more personalthat way.
Gives me a warm, fuzzy glow to be criticized in PM. And that way you can be sure I've actually atleast glanced at it, whereas digs here on the forum often go unnoticed, unless they're pointed out to me bythose who like to keep track of that sort of nonsense.
To detractors, I say: save your energy. You're totally wasting your time.
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100thMonkey

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #295 - on: 28.04.2011 at 19:40 [UT+1] »I first heard about Byron Katie around here. I kind of played around with some of her downloadable material. It
did my head in for about 5 minutes and i tossed it. I watched a truly hideous video therapy session with amother and son in front of a live audience. I wonder about her 28 day Turnaround House for addicts (who haveto be clean for 2 weeks prior, but can get in with 24hrs notice) and a fee of 20K (only refundable 30 days prior
Posts: 900

to attending and in writing). And using homeless people as props in a real life therapy nightmare??
BK's chart is a powerful one, the tsquare with the NN/chiron conjunction at the apex on 29 degrees. and all
those talent triangles. The sun/venus/mercury burnt by the sun and a critical moon/mars h tightly squared. Allof them trining Pluto in the 2nd... Yes and T pluto on the DC.
I like to look at the 12h as an indicator for career. Maurice Fernandez has written about this. He says its thehouse where we merge with the collective. And all those world leaders with 12H suns. Its also the 2nd housefrom the 10th. Her 12th with Saturn and Uranus on the cusp ruled by an opposing Mercury in the 6th underthe beams of the sun. The urge to serve and all disposing to Jupiter d in the 1st, which then goes back to thecritical moon.

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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #296 - on: 28.04.2011 at 19:44 [UT+1] »Interesting... I was just looking at Sigmund Freud's chart, and he has J on the DSC natally, and whenever I
see that placement, I think of all the people who misuse that energy, since Pluto in the 7th or on the DSC has
the power to project so much of their own inner power needs on to others.
I know someone posted Kiesha Crowther's birth date, but I still don't see her birth time anywhere. I will keep
looking. I believe she was born in Colorado, although I might be misremembering that.
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Ms. Miranda

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #297 - on: 28.04.2011 at 20:10 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 28.04.2011 at 18:21 [UT+1]:

You know you've got a bad spiritual leader, one who isn't what they say they are, when...

"You might be a redneck when..."Posts: 3684
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100thMonkey
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #298 - on: 28.04.2011 at 20:28 [UT+1] »Re BK, my guess is she had the cockroach crawling over her foot when Pluto was transiting one of her
luminaries

Posts: 900

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Fauve

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #299 - on: 28.04.2011 at 21:07 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 28.04.2011 at 20:28 [UT+1]:
Re BK, my guess is she had the cockroach crawling over her foot when Pluto was transiting one of her luminaries

In fact: According to the records out there, it was February 1986. From my memory she had Tr. Pluto square
Pluto and her Progressed Sun on the 28th degree of Capricorn: The cusp of the 8th house...
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100thMonkey
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #300 - on: 28.04.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Fauve on 28.04.2011 at 21:07 [UT+1]:
Quote from 100thMonkey on 28.04.2011 at 20:28 [UT+1]:
Re BK, my guess is she had the cockroach crawling over her foot when Pluto was transiting one of her luminaries

Posts: 900

In fact: According to the records out there, it was February 1986. From my memory she had Tr. Pluto square Pluto and her Progressed Sunon the 28th degree of Capricorn: The cusp of the 8th house...

and the ruler of the 8th in the 12th. See those critical degrees keep coming up with her. In the degree of thenodes...
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beyond the stars

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #301 - on: 28.04.2011 at 21:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 28.04.2011 at 20:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from beyond the stars on 28.04.2011 at 18:21 [UT+1]:

You know you've got a bad spiritual leader, one who isn't what they say they are, when...

"You might be a redneck when..."Yes, actually this brings up a good point, which is that much of the culture wherein guru-wannabes arepromoted is based on class issues. This is a very important element of how gurus are created. Gurus mightclaim to be born to it, and their followers might say they were born in this incarnation as [fill in the current
incarnation's name] but in fact, most gurus were born Joe Schmoe in some subdivision somewhere, if they
weren't born in a yurt. They are either "discovered," or they get a promoter, someone who speaks for them, sothey won't have to speak for themselves, since to blow one's own horn is considered tacky on the spiritualplane.
But there might very well be a class divide about who, in developed countries, follows in a guru's footsteps.
Someone mentioned appropriating another's culture (and in this case, religious beliefs). It's an interesting
phenomenon, the appropriation of someone else's culture, about which much more can be said. This used tomake me angry, until I gained enlightenment, and realised it's just all part of the sideshow. As David Gilmour
sang, "it's all in a lifetime...." meaning you get to see a little bit of everything if you live long enough. What you
do with that knowledge... is another matter.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #302 - on: 28.04.2011 at 23:59 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 25.04.2011 at 02:27 [UT+1]:
I think you would officially be crazy, but

A in the 7th rescues you from harm.

I should really say more than this, but it's Easter, the holy day of my personal guru, so I am required by the rules of Catholicism to sit andponder that.

Posts: 222
Gender:This is how you can get the Jehovah's Witnesses to leave you alone, btw: just be more crazed than they are, and when they come to thedoor, asking, innocently, if you have accepted Christ into your heart, and selling their Jesus-shaped cookies, just say, "oh no, I have a
deeply personal relationship with Christ that I don't discuss." Look at them intently while you say this. Believe me, they'll RUN. Worksevery time.

ROFL! Fortunately I live in an apartment, so I don;t have to worry about being preached to by the door-todoor God-Botherers.
Any in any case the moment I opened my door they would see the pentacle on my neck and run screaming!
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wandering

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #303 - on: 29.04.2011 at 00:05 [UT+1] »Ramana Maharshi is usually accepted to be a guru in the full sense of the term. His chart is somewhat
interesting with A and K, and B with ketu. Many of his divisional charts also have a g ascendant.
His swamsa chart (atmakaraka D-1 placement as lagna) has c rising with B and ketu. His karakamsha lagnachart (atmakaraka D-9 placement as lagna) also has c rising with B again.
Not that gurus need to have these particular placements, but it seems like the nodal relationship with theluminaries is a consistent pattern in many people who have influenced me personally, for better or worse
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astro_2gw_15_ramana_maharshi_hw_81941_13291.gif(attachment deleted)
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100thMonkey
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #304 - on: 29.04.2011 at 01:09 [UT+1] »He has a kite too. I just looked at the Dalai Lamas chart and he has a kite configuration as well

Posts: 900

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Jen J.

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #305 - on: 29.04.2011 at 01:53 [UT+1] »Quote from wandering on 29.04.2011 at 00:05 [UT+1]:.... Not that gurus need to have these particular placements, but it seems like the nodal relationship with the luminaries is a consistentpattern in many people who have influenced me personally, for better or worse ÂPosts: 4286

Wandering, Im intrigued what you feel about this chart? ... if you have any strong impressions ?
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astro_D__Libra.gif (attachment deleted)
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wandering
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #306 - on: 29.04.2011 at 07:38 [UT+1] »Jen J.,I am intrigued by this chart and I will look more closely at it in the sidereal format using the harmonic charts.
Is this birth time accurate, or is this just a general noon chart because the time of birth was unknown?
I can tell you just by looking at this one chart that this person is a leader in some way. I cannot tell you how
the world judged them only by looking at this single picture called the D-1 natal chart. It would be extremely
helpful to know if the birth time is correct.
This person may have been what is called a spiritual leader.
100thMonkey: What does a kite configuration mean in this context?
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IP LoggedFauveEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #307 - on: 29.04.2011 at 07:42 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 28.04.2011 at 11:19 [UT+1]:
This is very bizarre therapy from the above link re BK
Quote:
With many reservations, I attended her 9 day school. We were sworn to secrecy about the events that go on there so as
not to "spoil it for others" who would attend in the future. I've written about my experiences there, for my own sanity, andwhile I will spare you the gory details, I will offer a small list of things that happen there.
1. A forced 36 hour fast.
2. An day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were
instructed not to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.
3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock. Vomiting was a regular occurrence, and was offered as"evidence" of cleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.
4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)
5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)
7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one
could trust their own perceptions anymore

It is more than bizarre therapy: These are skilled mind control techniques to dissociate and confuse you; andstrip you from your identity in the end. The people behind her school do know exactly what they are doing andits more than harmful. People should not fall for this: It will scramble with your mind on a deep level. The fourquestions from The Worksheets you can download, as well as her book: Loving What Is, are hooks to prepare
you into the first stage of the process .
Quote:Its so disturbing, to see regular everyday people get taken in by these extremely powerful techniques,
and then literally have their minds scrambled over the course of a couple of weeks, by the dozens and evenmore than 100 techniques being used by Byron Katie at her LGAT seminars, and after the seminar.
Its all carefully planned out, Byron Katie knows exactly what can happen, as she forces every Byron Katie
seminar attendee to sign the Byron Katie School for The Work RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.rickross.com]
This person is aware of only some of what was done to her, but not most of it, yet.
Notice below, that Byron Katie is made aware that this person having a mental breakdown, and just pushes her
FURTHER into it. Why?
Notice below, that Byron Katie is literally pushing this person into MANIA and says that "freedom is like mania".
Mania is one of the most destructive and dangerous states a human can get into, mania can destroy your life, itcan end your life. [www.behavenet.com]
Why is Byron Katie pushing this person into mania on purpose? In mania, people do things like give away all
their money, or gamble it all away.
Byron Katie knows this person happens to have plenty of money, and could go into the "Aftercare" process, andbe sold into the Turnaround House, and give more "donations", etc. The worse she gets, the more "Aftercare"she needs. (After-care...for what? For more harm from the unlicensed quack who hurt you in the first place?)
Also notice Byron Katie KNOWS she has money, and is pushing this person to "end suffering on the planet"
which means, work for Byron Katie as a volunteer for years, and "donate" all of your money and time to her.
(heard that one before?)
Notice also, that yet another person wanted to get a divorce, right after the Byron Katie "School".
These are not accidents. Its all engineered right into the LGAT seminar, The School For The Work.
That is why Byron Katie says..."I know" when this lady tells her she is having a mental breakdown. Of course
Byron Katie "knows", she designed it, she engineered it. Anyone with the proper training can see if a person
follows the BK system, they are going to be in "checkmate", and have some type of mental breakdown. Thenguess what? The person becomes completely dependent and fused with Byron Katie for years, and even for life
for some of them. There are dozens right now who are in that inner circle of Byron Katie, and will be there formany years, if not for life.
But even in this report, you see the Byron Katie manipulation of the word "Voluntary", which is her escapehatch, and is also used as a tactic. Its not voluntary, its unconscious and complex group persuasion, and notice
how Byron Katie refuses to accept any responsibilty of her abuses of power. People need to remember thatpeople's consent is being Engineered by a highly skilled professional, and you can't have consent without full
disclosure. There is no consent where there is systematic deceit.
Notice how people are taken into the streets, and stripped of their identities and money...(notice thesymbolism? NO MONEY and NO IDENTITY, that is a rehearsal for what can happen next).
Food deprivation to induce weakened states where people become more suggestible, sleep deprivation ...
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #308 - on: 29.04.2011 at 07:45 [UT+1] »Continuing Quote:...to increase suggestibility.
This is also not the first time it has been stated that people were "tripping out" like they were being "dosed"with some type of drug.
They are encouraged to do countless Worksheets, which scramble their minds even more. Repeatedly doing
those bizarre Turnarounds, is literally going to give a person a thinking disorder, and could trigger a psychotic
break. To constantly twist and warp your thinking in circles like that, is going to scramble your cognitive
processes. And once you scramble your cognitive processes, you can be completely debilitated. Its literally
making mincemeat of your mind.
Even after a person's mind and life has literally been destroyed, they sometimes still have "mixed feelings"
about the process. This is how complex and subtle the deep programming is. They are still on some level
blaming themselves for what happened. But if they had studied these methods for years, and knew what
happened to them, they would NOT blame themselves, as they have been duped by a highly-skilled
professional, in an extreme abuse of power. This is one of the worst abuses of these techniques out there today,
as the targets are just regular folks, and soccer moms.
Its somewhat like using a nuclear battleship against a family in a canoe. Or a modern tank against a family
home.
For the average untrained person, who is completely unaware about these techniques, how can they defend
themselves? Are they to go with barefists against a tank?
This is mind-rape, soul-rape. That kind of extreme power used against vulnerable people, that is as bad as itgets.
She lures them in, bombards them with dozens and even a hundred of the most powerful thought-reform and
LGAT techniques ever known in history, she absolutely HAMMERS their minds from 20 directions at once, anddoes it under the fog of a Love-Bomb.
Its hard to think of the correct metaphor to describe it.
Byron Katire presents herself as a simpleton, a savant, a talking head wearing a pantsuit.
Meanwhile, she is running at least 100 of the most powerful thought-reform techniques ever known, all at once.
The time has come to make a list of all the techniques she is running at once on people.
The average untrained person doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.
Those top experts in the world, with many years of experience and training in this area, know how powerfulthese techniques are, and would NEVER subject themselves to these processes like this.
Please, if a person is going through a nightmare like this, STOP doing the Byron Katie processes and pleaseseek some professional, trained, ACCREDITED assistance. Not from anyone associated with Byron Katie in any
way.
Mania is not "freedom", mania is destruction and even death.
Please do not "surrender" to Byron Katie. What is happening to you is not what you are being told. She is using
very common techniques on people, which are not known to the general public.
How can Gurus consciously and joyfully visit this level of extreme mental abuse on vulnerable people? Most
Gurus are quite smart, and yet have severe personality disorders, and forms of malignant narcissism, with acomplete lack of empathy or a normal conscience.
[www.mayoclinic.com]
QUOTE excerpt:__________________________________________
At 2/17/2009 12:11 AM, C said...
"Byron Katie Is Either Going To Enlighten You Or Kill You Trying"...or both Unquote.
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,12906,page=133 post at the bottom of the page; March
21,2009.
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #309 - on: 29.04.2011 at 10:58 [UT+1] »You know, it's really hard not to make fun of this statement from Byron Katie's website. Also, come on: "Byron
Katie"? Did her mother actually name her that?? Is that on her birth certificate??
I discovered that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, but that when I didn't believe them, I
didn't suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. I found that
suffering is optional. I found a joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment. That joy isin everyone, always." — Byron Katie
Huh?? I love George Orwell; he so often comes in handy, and this is one of those moments. He called this kindof gibberish doublespeak, which comes in handy when you want to befuddle the masses.
I think my thoughts are making me suffer, but only because I believe them. Okay, sure. There's a rather huge
logical fallacy here, which comes down to which thoughts? Well, you know very well which thoughts, if they're
causing you suffering... they're not the thoughts that will be sanctioned by BK, who has the same initials (which
is probably a total coincidence? yes?) as Brahma Kumaris.... okay, who knows, maybe it's a coincidence.
I'd say: be very careful who you allow to tell you are the "right" thoughts to think. Not all suffering is
automatically bad for you. I agree with the statement that "suffering is optional," but not without a lot oftherapy. You do not wave a magic wand or eat "heavily organic food" for a week and have your suffering
thoughts eradicated, nor should that be necessary.
The miasma of delusion and illusion is really troubling. And I have a A/I square! You'd think I'd be ripe forthis kind of brain-washing!!
Perhaps it's because it's a very wide square, at 11˚, that I am not running off
to join an ashram. Also, they make you do things like wash up the dishes for a group of people, and I'm justnot that altruistic. Not every night, anyway.

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StefanEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #310 - on: 29.04.2011 at 11:10 [UT+1] »Quote from wandering on 29.04.2011 at 00:05 [UT+1]:
Ramana Maharshi is usually accepted to be a guru in the full sense of the term. His chart is somewhat interesting with
with ketu.

A and K, and B

Yes Moon is also fullmoon, a symbol of enlightenment, in the 9th a house of spiritual development.
The trinal relationship of Sun, uranus and neptune suggest a karma of having mastered altered statesof consiousness before birth.
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Fauve

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #311 - on: 29.04.2011 at 16:35 [UT+1] »Huh… Is everybody besides Beyond The Stars and the 100th Monkey, back into cognitive dissonance again…?
This is the psychological section isn’t it?
Well, it’s ok I have many other things to do the next couple of days anyway.
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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #312 - on: 29.04.2011 at 19:00 [UT+1] »well, if these people are 'good' gurus, then they deserve a place at the table. I personally am completely open
to there being good gurus; I just think they are probably few and far between, since transcendence of ego issuch a difficult task. I think a mark of a good guru is someone who creates the belief or feeling in his or her
students that they themselves do not need to proselytize. It ought to be good enough, as the student of theguru, to learn what you need to learn and pass that truth on to others via your example. In this way, I am notconvinced the disciples of Jesus got it 'right.' I think they had much more work to do before they were ready,some of them, to take their message out on the road. There was far too much ego tied up in many of theiractions, it seems to me. The words of Jesus made sense to me (and even when he got angry and threw themoney lenders out of the temple) but the ways in which his followers reinterpreted them, you could tell theirmotives were not pure.
Of course, it has to be said, I have extremely high standards for my spiritual leaders... not that they can't behuman, just please do not preach one thing and be living another reality at the same time.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #313 - on: 29.04.2011 at 19:06 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 29.04.2011 at 19:00 [UT+1]:
well, if these people are 'good' gurus, then they deserve a place at the table. I personally am completely open to there being good gurus;
I just think they are probably few and far between, since transcendence of ego is such a difficult task. I think a mark of a good guru is
someone who creates the belief or feeling in his or her students that they themselves do not need to proselytize. It ought to be goodenough, as the student of the guru, to learn what you need to learn and pass that truth on to others via your example. In this way, I am
not convinced the disciples of Jesus got it 'right.' I think they had much more work to do before they were ready, some of them, to taketheir message out on the road. There was far too much ego tied up in many of their actions, it seems to me. The words of Jesus madesense to me (and even when he got angry and threw the money lenders out of the temple) but the ways in which his followers
reinterpreted them, you could tell their motives were not pure.
Of course, it has to be said, I have extremely high standards for my spiritual leaders... not that they can't be human, just please do notpreach one thing and be living another reality at the same time.

I agree. In the Bible the apostles often bicker about who will be greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus
has to set them straight with a parable. He frequently scolded them, "How much longer must I endure...?". It
would seem the the 12 were chosen as much for their foibles as for their personal color.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #314 - on: 29.04.2011 at 19:18 [UT+1] »Let's look at Charles Manson again. It is sinister since Manson had appeal, perhaps charm, and he was very
convincing. Like Hitler he had Uranus near AS but opposing Mercury. Thus they are both strange and given touttering wild claims, like Hitler's propaganda against the Jews and for a master race of Aryans, or Manson'sbelief in a race war devastating civilization and his part in it. Mercury-conjunct-Jupiter is usually a very helpful
aspect, but it is opposed the Uranus as before.
Sun-conjunct-Venus gave him charm and the opportunity for sybaritic pleasures, but the square to Saturnsuggests a mean person. Moon-conjunct-Node opposed Pluto was his second family, a family which was deadly,a family who he controlled subtly.
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Apostrophe

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #315 - on: 29.04.2011 at 20:04 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 29.04.2011 at 10:58 [UT+1]:
You know, it's really hard not to make fun of this statement from Byron Katie's website. Also, come on: "Byron Katie"? Did her motheractually name her that?? Is that on her birth certificate??

Yeah, I think it might be that Sun -Saturn/Uranus opposition thingy she has in her chart.

Posts: 2454

I see that we are still talking about the dreaded BK so I dug out some files that I downloaded a few years ago
from a link from a another page by an author named Marci Shimoff, who wrote a book called "Happy For No
Reason". All positive New Agey stuff about being happy and making money - oh by the way, we should probably
look at Suzie Orman - the American money guru. But getting back to BK, no one is forcing anyone to pay her
thousands of dollars to read her website.
There is lots of stuff on the internet that we can get for free,or at least the price of an internet connection, andthen decide what to throw out as trash. I was listening to another guru from her clique talk about The Sedona
Method, which is actually, IMO, a very good way of accessing resistance in our personalities, which might besabotaging our happiness. Astrologically, I see the Pluto and Scorpio principle here and am grateful that I haveastrology to help analyze things and discriminate the important stuff from the guru-isms. The Sedona Method
is all about welcoming ideas that we are frightened of, and then using the BK idea of turning our fear roundinto the opposite or just letting go of it.
Maybe people go to these expensive retreats to meet other like-minded people. With the decline of organized
religion, I think people want some sort of philosophy to share with a partner or friends. This forum of course isa very mild version of that idea. There are gurus here as well, and it's up to all of us to sort out what we thinkis truly useful.

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Evolving
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #316 - on: 29.04.2011 at 20:09 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 29.04.2011 at 10:58 [UT+1]:
You know, it's really hard not to make fun of this statement from Byron Katie's website. Also, come on: "Byron Katie"? Did her motheractually name her that?? Is that on her birth certificate??

Byron Kathleen Reid

Posts: 400

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Ed Falis

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #317 - on: 29.04.2011 at 21:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.04.2011 at 19:06 [UT+1]:...
I agree. In the Bible the apostles often bicker about who will be greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus has to set them straightwith a parable. He frequently scolded them, "How much longer must I endure...?". It would seem the the 12 were chosen as much fortheir foibles as for their personal color.

On the other hand, maybe the message is that foibles are unavoidable.
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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #318 - on: 29.04.2011 at 22:11 [UT+1] »It has to be said—well, no, it doesn't, but I'll say it anyway—that with G so strong in my chart, I can be a real
wet blanket and throw an awful lot of misery, gloom, despair and tears on almost any situation. "Fun" is hardly
my middle name. The upside of a strong Saturnian-style influence, however, is that it does tend one towardrealism. Not pessimism, necessarily; just seeing things as they are. Someone like Byron Katie (thank you,
Evolving, for that data, cause, seriously, that name was hard to believe; but whatever, this is America, the land
where any weird first name is possible) sounds like she's seriously nuts, and getting nuttier. No one compares
to David Ickes, the home of the Reptilians on Urth, but he's so entertaining it brings back the true meaning of"there's a sucker born every minute," a cynical phrase coined by an American.
Mayhap we are a more cynicalbunch than those across the various ponds give us 'credit' for being, cause being cynical is hardly a virtue.
Cynicism might very well be the opposite of credulousness, however. I think of these as G/I issues, of course.

And thank you realworld for looking that stuff up, and thank you Stephen for reintroducing Charles Manson,
because I think that, for Americans, anyway, he sums up a force or energy we didn't really know existed prior tohis entry on the scene of crazies. Now we know what to look for.

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coyoteEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #319 - on: 29.04.2011 at 23:19 [UT+1] »What about grandmotherly Dolores Cannon, who preaches that Earth will divide into 2 Earths at the end of
2012, one to stay here in the 4th-dimensional plane with unevolved people who can blow it all up or destroy it
as far as anyone cares, and the other to go to the 5th Dimension with more evolved humans, to be embraced
by more highly evolved Aliens from other planets and spiritual angels and what-not?
She says she gets her information from having regressed people’s memories (I guess some kind of hypnosis orsomething) over the decades, but the truth is that she’s merely ripping off a Hopi Indian prophecy stating thatparts of the earth will evolve to the next dimension around that time, while the dreck of White Man’s civilization
will be left behind in this dimension (3 space and 1 time). In the Hopi prophecy, this dimension consists of 3,
and the next will be 4, whereas with Dolores Cannon this one is 3 dimensional and the next higher plane is 5
dimensions, but essentially in practically all other details she’s just recycling the Hopi prophecy and claiming it
as her own.
She seems innocent enough, and likeable and new-agey and what-not, and doesn’t demand anything otherthan contributions (money) for her lectures and classes, but she annoys me to no end because she’s so clearlylying about her “information” and “facts”.
Lots of her videos on youTube; also, the famous Hopi prophecies (10 of them, all of them having come true
with the exception of the Earth-split which happens end of 2012) are easily found via a google search too.
Seems like most gurus just want MONEY, whether it’s through book sales, or lecture fees, or life-savings andwhat-have-you.
The ones on street corners who don’t want anything except a coin or two are, well, a bit too homeless andpsycho-looking for me.
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Ed Falis
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #320 - on: 29.04.2011 at 23:27 [UT+1] »Quote from coyote on 29.04.2011 at 23:19 [UT+1]:
What about grandmotherly Dolores Cannon, who preaches that Earth will divide into 2 Earths at the end of 2012, one to stay here in the
4th-dimensional plane with unevolved people who can blow it all up or destroy it as far as anyone cares, and the other to go to the 5th
Dimension with more evolved humans, to be embraced by more highly evolved Aliens from other planets and spiritual angels and whatnot?...

Oh, I thought that already happened in 1980 when Ronald Reagan became president of the US? All of us on
the wrong side of the divide just have to do what we can to help out, eh? "Family of Light" and all that stuff.
- Ed
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beyond the stars

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #321 - on: 30.04.2011 at 00:59 [UT+1] »Oh, yeah! Dolores Cannon! I had almost entirely forgotten about her, since I became aware of her at the sametime as David Icke, who is more memorable, being a green reptile and all. I will have to go back and revisit
Dolores, since my memory is not what it might have been if I'd been born in an era where I wasn't being
poisoned by chemicals beyond my control. Now they're finding fire retardants in dog and cat fur, because there
are so many chemicals in our skin, we're shedding skin cells that animals breathe.
Point being, my brain is probably mush, due to chemical poisoning. But that does not prevent me from being
able to appreciate your interesting avatar.
It is an image I have not seen before.
Anyway, here is what I was looking at prior to this dog-related digression. I found someone skeptical who
claims this guy is a good guru: http://vimeo.com/user3836573
The skeptical person is this guy: http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/
The most recent stuff Guruphiliac has to say about Byron Katie is this*:
Friday, August 06, 2010
Whacking "The Work"
File under: Gurus Clockin' Dollars
We don't know who this person is, but we're all about this analysis of Byron "Big Bucks" Katie's "The Work":
There is a subtle nuance in the language of the facilitators of "the work" which reveals a deep, internal
contradiction between what is practiced and what is preached.
Ostensibly, the work began as an "I" realization, one where Katie saw her own thoughts as projections and theoutside world as a reflection of those projections.
From all accounts I have heard of people who experienced some sort of enlightenment, that experience cameabout from and inward collapsing of something that was blocking perception, and an emerging clarity. This
seems to occur spontaneously after a period of disturbance. I have never heard of anyone having an
enlightenment experience from performing some method (other than pure meditative
concentration/contemplation), especially not from one that involves making noise inside the mind with more
words and questions. Words and thoughts are forms of mind activity. The pain of mental activity is not resolved
with more mental activity. It is resolved with listening and feeling, which lead into inner silence, stillness, andclarity.
In the application of attempting to teach "the work", a facilitator is immediately violating one of its own
principles, namely, to "stay in one's own business." By now, how many other people's business has Byron Katie
gotten into? It's difficult to take her preaching seriously when she herself is doing precisely what she
recommends to her students not to do.
Furthermore, the moment I try to teach you that your thoughts are a projection of your mind, the idea thatyou need to learn this, and that I need to teach you, are projections of my mind. If I'm saying to you, "it's allabout you", I have stepped outside of the circle of what is true about me, the circle in which I have a real say. It
would seem disrespectful and presumptuous for me to delve into your inner dialogue and try to get you to see
something about yourself, when my job is to listen and respond from my own truth. I see Byron Katie
attempting to impose her own views over and over again in the conversations in her books. It is as thoughwhen you are expressing a judgement, it is a projection, but when she is expressing a judgment, she's seeing
and telling it like it is. The idea that I know something you need to learn, and that I need to teach you, is a
projection of my mind. There is no humility or respect in trying to teach you the "truth", since everyone is bornfrom the truth, dies and returns to the truth, and is the truth. No special courses are required to learn honesty.
Life experience and just saying what is on the heart is enough!
We realize that some folks are helped by the Work. Others only lose lots of money. Caveat emptor.
Labels: Gurus Clockin' Dollars
posted by jody radzik @ 7:00 PM 91 comments*Can someone please post a Byron Katie chart? Has someone already posted a BK chart? This thread
is getting kinda long.
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solarwind
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #322 - on: 30.04.2011 at 02:11 [UT+1] »Earth will divide into 2 Earths at the end of 2012
What is the reason to wait till 2012?
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #323 - on: 30.04.2011 at 02:20 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 30.04.2011 at 00:59 [UT+1]:
Oh, yeah! Dolores Cannon! I had almost entirely forgotten about her, since I became aware of her at the same time as David Icke, who ismore memorable, being a green reptile and all. I will have to go back and revisit Dolores, since my memory is not what it might havebeen if I'd been born in an era where I wasn't being poisoned by chemicals beyond my control. Now they're finding fire retardants in dog
and cat fur, because there are so many chemicals in our skin, we're shedding skin cells that animals breathe.
Point being, my brain is probably mush, due to chemical poisoning. But that does not prevent me from being able to appreciate yourinteresting avatar.

It is an image I have not seen before.

Anyway, here is what I was looking at prior to this dog-related digression. I found someone skeptical who claims this guy is a good guru:
http://vimeo.com/user3836573
The skeptical person is this guy: http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/
The most recent stuff Guruphiliac has to say about Byron Katie is this*:
Friday, August 06, 2010
Whacking "The Work"
File under: Gurus Clockin' Dollars
We don't know who this person is, but we're all about this analysis of Byron "Big Bucks" Katie's "The Work":
There is a subtle nuance in the language of the facilitators of "the work" which reveals a deep, internal contradiction between what ispracticed and what is preached.
Ostensibly, the work began as an "I" realization, one where Katie saw her own thoughts as projections and the outside world as areflection of those projections.
From all accounts I have heard of people who experienced some sort of enlightenment, that experience came about from and inward
collapsing of something that was blocking perception, and an emerging clarity. This seems to occur spontaneously after a period of
disturbance. I have never heard of anyone having an enlightenment experience from performing some method (other than pure meditative
concentration/contemplation), especially not from one that involves making noise inside the mind with more words and questions. Words
and thoughts are forms of mind activity. The pain of mental activity is not resolved with more mental activity. It is resolved with listening
and feeling, which lead into inner silence, stillness, and clarity.
In the application of attempting to teach "the work", a facilitator is immediately violating one of its own principles, namely, to "stay in
one's own business." By now, how many other people's business has Byron Katie gotten into? It's difficult to take her preaching seriously
when she herself is doing precisely what she recommends to her students not to do.
Furthermore, the moment I try to teach you that your thoughts are a projection of your mind, the idea that you need to learn this, andthat I need to teach you, are projections of my mind. If I'm saying to you, "it's all about you", I have stepped outside of the circle ofwhat is true about me, the circle in which I have a real say. It would seem disrespectful and presumptuous for me to delve into your innerdialogue and try to get you to see something about yourself, when my job is to listen and respond from my own truth. I see Byron Katie
attempting to impose her own views over and over again in the conversations in her books. It is as though when you are expressing a
judgement, it is a projection, but when she is expressing a judgment, she's seeing and telling it like it is. The idea that I know something
you need to learn, and that I need to teach you, is a projection of my mind. There is no humility or respect in trying to teach you the"truth", since everyone is born from the truth, dies and returns to the truth, and is the truth. No special courses are required to learnhonesty. Life experience and just saying what is on the heart is enough!
We realize that some folks are helped by the Work. Others only lose lots of money. Caveat emptor.
Labels: Gurus Clockin' Dollars
posted by jody radzik @ 7:00 PM 91 comments*Can someone please post a Byron Katie chart? Has someone already posted a BK chart? This thread is getting kinda long.

I still don't know how to post charts; but it's posted here on page 5, post 81.
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beyond the stars
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #324 - on: 30.04.2011 at 02:24 [UT+1] »well, as I recall from watching Dolores Cannon speak, a reason people might find it unpleasant to jump on the
Dolores bandwagon is because a) no one wants to admit they are lowly sinners who are too awful, and whose
halos need so much polishing, we shall be left behind. The b) reason is because if you're going to be able to go
to the new, perfect world Dolores saw, you're going to have to be perfect enough to do so, because thestandards of who gets to stay and who has to go are pretty strict.
In essence, there's an awful lot of judgementalism and elitism going on at the heart of any vision that attempts
to split off one world, leaving behind, as cults tend to, all those who don't live up to their expectations.
Plus which, Dolores Cannon envisions this second world existing in another dimension, and that one is going tobe hard to believe, unless, of course, you watch a lot of Dr. Who, and are used to the TARDIS landing wherever
and whenever it damned well pleases.
Oh, thank you Fauve, you're my favorite new helper bee.
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Fauve

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #325 - on: 30.04.2011 at 02:48 [UT+1] »Good for my halo; bad for my ego, BTS.
About the splitting earth: What if a good enough person has an abusive spouse?
Will she wake up one day
while he have disappeared to the second earth? What happens if he also pay's the rent.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #326 - on: 30.04.2011 at 09:17 [UT+1] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 28.04.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Fauve on 28.04.2011 at 21:07 [UT+1]:
Quote from 100thMonkey on 28.04.2011 at 20:28 [UT+1]:
Re BK, my guess is she had the cockroach crawling over her foot when Pluto was transiting one of her
luminaries

In fact: According to the records out there, it was February 1986. From my memory she had Tr. Pluto square Pluto and her
Progressed Sun on the 28th degree of Capricorn: The cusp of the 8th house...

and the ruler of the 8th in the 12th. See those critical degrees keep coming up with her. In the degree of the nodes...

Tr. Chiron was on top of Saturn: Ruler of the 8th house, February 1986. Tr. Saturn was in opposition with Natal
Saturn and moving in to a conjunction with her Sun, in a 6-degree orb: Loads of bugs onto the 6/12 axes, butalso very grounding and real.
Tr. Jupiter went over her South Node into Aquarius mid February, which expanded the Fixed Cross. But I am not
all too sure we can talk about enlightenment here. It takes more than just Jupiter alone; I think.
Tr. Neptune into the 6th was still in orb with a square with N. Neptune. Somewhere at the end of 1985; her
Progressed Moon at the first degree of Cancer into the 12th house, made a square with her Natal Neptune into
the 4th, in Libra and was in a 5 degree orb on her way to the Ascendant: Preparing to face the world again.
Transit Uranus was in a 3 degree orb conjunct to her 6th House Venus and would go back onto her Venus again
in retrograde motion in the months to follow. Uranus/Venus could have triggered something.
With the Pluto square Pluto, Saturn opposite Saturn and her Progressed Sun on the cusp of the 8th house,
Byron Katie must have been facing some very painful, dark, ugly stuff inside.
Liz Greene writes in one of her books that Uranus/Venus aspects have a very idealistic perception of beauty andthey don’t want to be confronted with the more ugly sides life also can give. She writes for example that a manwith this aspect can love his woman for her beauty, but advises women who are involved with a man with this
aspect to close the door of the bathroom while they go through the process of shaving their legs, because
seeing the more practical side of beauty can be a total turn off to a man with this aspect.
Tr. Uranus on top of her Venus could have been the trigger to the ultimate dissociation from the ugliness she
was going through. One could see the sign of Pisces on the MC as a mark to her so-called spiritualenlightenment. I personally believe she is the queen of dissociation; which also is an expression of Neptune.
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Ethereal Mountain

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #327 - on: 30.04.2011 at 13:27 [UT+1] »Only mildly relevant to this topic, but something that frequently comes up in discussion at my place, is therelationship between James Randi and Uri Geller. We actually looked at their synastry today, and it isinteresting. Each person's G falls near the other's C, each person's B is in the other's 6th house, Randi's
vertex is exactly m Geller's ASC and N, and Geller's K is m Randi's ASC. They also have a EpD. A fatal
Posts: 1039
Gender:attraction

The rationalist guru vs the "woo woo" guru:

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #328 - on: 30.04.2011 at 18:37 [UT+1] »No, Ethereal Mountain, I disagree; I don't think what you've included is tangential, I think it's definitely part ofthis discussion, and I thank thee for thy addition to the thread.
But, because NO ONE includes the necessary background information here
I have had to go through theincredibly ONEROUS task of looking up this James Randi dude BY MYSELF (sigh). So it turns out that James
Randi (who, I realised when I looked at him, I had seen before) is a debunker of the High Mysteries, andtherefore probably/possibly has something to say about David Ickes, but maybe not. Anyway, for the Randiuninitiated, here is something from the Randi website:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/about-james-randi.html

Newsflash
Written by JREF Staff
Tuesday, 10 July 2007 11:04

For high-resolution headshots of James Randi, click here. (I have not activated this potential link, cause he's
scary-looking)James Randi has an international reputation as a magician and escape artist, but today he is best known as theworld's most tireless investigator and demystifier of paranormal and pseudoscientific claims.
Randi has pursued "psychic" spoonbenders, exposed the dirty tricks of faith healers, investigated homeopathic
water "with a memory," and generally been a thorn in the sides of those who try to pull the wool over the
public's eyes in the name of the supernatural.
He has received numerous awards and recognitions, including a Fellowship from the John D. and Catherine T.
MacArthur Foundation in 1986.
On October 19, 1993, the PBS-TV "NOVA" program broadcast a one-hour special dealing with Randi's life work,
particularly with his investigations of Uri Geller and various occult and healing claims being made by scientists
in Russia.
He is the author of numerous books, including The Truth About Uri Geller, The Faith Healers, Flim-Flam!, and
An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural. His lectures and televisionappearances have delighted — and vexed — audiences around the world.
In 1996, The James Randi Education Foundation was established to further Randi's work. Randi's long-standing
challenge to psychics now stands as a $1,000,000 prize administered by the Foundation. It remains unclaimed.

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beyond the stars

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #329 - on: 30.04.2011 at 18:56 [UT+1] »Here we pause for a moment of definition and rationality, such as we can muster. The following article is about
being a "real", as opposed to a faux, skeptic/sceptic.
http://sciblogs.co.nz/skepticon/2011/04/24/%E2%80%9Ci-was-a-skeptic-but%E2%80%A6%E2%80%9D/
A paragraph or two from this somewhat badly written article (grammatically incorrect, to the extent that even I
would have edited out this amount of boo-boos—this writer seriously needs to learn when and how to use thecomma; but whatever, it's only the internets):"In the case of say, homeopathy or power balance bands our current understanding of the science should makeus extremely wary of efficacy even before the specific claims are considered. To be clear here though, plausibility
should be used as only part of the process, there are many things that work without us knowing how they work
but the further outside of current knowledge something is the stronger the evidence we should require before
we accept it. Certainly for many “alternative” therapies that strong evidence simply does not exist, as I
presented for Amber teething beads there is no reason to think they should work from a physical or medical
point of view so our standard of evidence should be higher than the earnest assurances of people in mothering
forums, or even our own experience – as noted above.
But this is exactly the sort of pseudo-evidence that we are wired to find most convincing. Throughout most of
our history the ability to evaluate randomised trials, statistics and p-values would not have aided oursurvival one whit. Therefore it’s not surprising that most of us are bad at it.*[See this part? This is why we don't like to be truly skeptical, it seems to me: because our scientific skepticism
is irrelevant; it's not just that it requires too much time.
If you had spent time, as a Neolithic, analysing, skeptically, the length of that mastodon's tusks, you would
have been gored and killed by them. The mastodon was not sitting there, skeptical (should I kill this human?
maybe it's got infected blood? We should find out first and run some tests before we kill it and eat it! And its
fellow mastodons all gather around, wearing lab coats, conducting experiments—uh, no.)Intuition, in my opinion, is hardwired because it will keep you alive; skepticism is learned. Therefore, it is not"natural" to be skeptical, it is an intellectual skill we have to employ under certain circumstances, and we do it
grudgingly.—Editor's note]
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Jen J.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #330 - on: 01.05.2011 at 06:52 [UT+1] »Quote from wandering on 29.04.2011 at 07:38 [UT+1]:
Jen J.,I am intrigued by this chart and I will look more closely at it in the sidereal format using the harmonic charts.
Is this birth time accurate, or is this just a general noon chart because the time of birth was unknown?
I can tell you just by looking at this one chart that this person is a leader in some way. I cannot tell you how the world judged them only

Posts: 4286

by looking at this single picture called the D-1 natal chart. It would be extremely helpful to know if the birth time is correct.
This person may have been what is called a spiritual leader.
100thMonkey: What does a kite configuration mean in this context?

Wandering,
Parents are Gurus. Some are good Gurus, some are bad Gurus. What does this char say. thanks, Jen
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Ethereal Mountain

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #331 - on: 01.05.2011 at 08:44 [UT+1] »BTS and everyone - if you can stand to do a bit of reading, this link is to a pretty amusing exchange between
JREF (Randi foundation) and an astrologer who was applying for the million dollar challenge. OK he's a bit of aflake maybe, but it's also interesting the way JREF keep on moving the goalposts, and eventually deny him thechance to take the challenge.
Posts: 1039
Gender:http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=41120

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MyriosEx Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #332 - on: 01.05.2011 at 15:21 [UT+1] »Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with this Thread but I did have this thought a while back that I've been
meaning to post (for whatever it's worth) about "Little Grandmother" whom I saw in one video months ago vis-a-vis what others have had to say about her being a quack or whatever? I perceive her as perhaps someone
who in her own right is 'sincere' but for that very reason, she has been coerced and brainwashed by her morecunning promoter.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #333 - on: 01.05.2011 at 18:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 01.05.2011 at 08:44 [UT+1]:
BTS and everyone - if you can stand to do a bit of reading, this link is to a pretty amusing exchange between JREF (Randi foundation) andan astrologer who was applying for the million dollar challenge. OK he's a bit of a flake maybe, but it's also interesting the way JREF keep
on moving the goalposts, and eventually deny him the chance to take the challenge.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=41120

Posts: 2454

Thanks for this link Ethereal Mountain - I will read through Kramer's proposals in more detail later on, as I am
familiar with setting up empirical psychology experiments from college. I have also spent a fair amount of timeon the JREF forum arguing for astrology, but solely from a theoretical point of view.
A colleague of James Randi, Michael Shermer, who is head of the Skeptics Society based in Pasadena, California,
has actually performed an empirical (as much as he was able) experiment testing Vedic astrologer Jeffrey
Armstrong, in case you have not seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1dIUTbZTo
which showed that astrology worked - he got a 70% success rate (from memory) - higher than what we would
expect from chance guessing, confirmation bias or cold reading.
This kind of over-rides the million dollar challenge, IMO, although it is an embarrassment to Shermer and JREF,
and they try not to mention it too often.

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Fauve
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #334 - on: 02.05.2011 at 09:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 01.05.2011 at 15:21 [UT+1]:
Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with this Thread but I did have this thought a while back that I've been meaning to post (forwhatever it's worth) about "Little Grandmother" whom I saw in one video months ago - vis-a-vis what others have had to say about her
being a quack or whatever? I perceive her as perhaps someone who in her own right is 'sincere' but for that very reason, she has been
coerced and brainwashed by her more cunning promoter.
MyriosI think you might have a point here if it comes to Kiesha. But for her own sake, as well as for the sake of her
loved one’s, which in her case are many: She better start to become her own hero and free herself from thispromoter.
Bob Marley once wrote a beautiful and wise song about this type of promoters…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DucNcIffGio
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #335 - on: 02.05.2011 at 20:28 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 01.05.2011 at 18:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 01.05.2011 at 08:44 [UT+1]:
BTS and everyone - if you can stand to do a bit of reading, this link is to a pretty amusing exchange between JREF (Randi
foundation) and an astrologer who was applying for the million dollar challenge. OK he's a bit of a flake maybe, but it'salso interesting the way JREF keep on moving the goalposts, and eventually deny him the chance to take the challenge.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=41120

Thanks for this link Ethereal Mountain - I will read through Kramer's proposals in more detail later on, as I am familiar with setting up
empirical psychology experiments from college. I have also spent a fair amount of time on the JREF forum arguing for astrology, butsolely from a theoretical point of view.
A colleague of James Randi, Michael Shermer, who is head of the Skeptics Society based in Pasadena, California, has actually performed
an empirical (as much as he was able) experiment testing Vedic astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong, in case you have not seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1dIUTbZTo
which showed that astrology worked - he got a 70% success rate (from memory) - higher than what we would expect from chanceguessing, confirmation bias or cold reading.
This kind of over-rides the million dollar challenge, IMO, although it is an embarrassment to Shermer and JREF, and they try not tomention it too often.

Long before the internet, James Randi had a career as The Amazing Randi. He was a magician, but as asideline, he was an occasional guest on talk shows in order to debunk astrology. His primary tactic was to set a
trap for a poor astrologer (any poor astrologer will do), and then to embarrass the astrologer by revealing his
ineptitude. He then made the assumption that this proves that astrology is invalid or worse.
Clearly that is not logical. Clearly he is not passionate about knowledge and understanding. Clearly this istantamount to bigotry, a prejudicial hatred of astrologers. He continued in this vein for decades.
His web site has had the same ridiculing, insolent attitude toward astrologers. There is no reason why any
astrologer should trust him to honor his 'bet'. He thrives on attacking those he hates, and he does so under
the pretense of a passion for knowledge.
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Geoffrey Hillend
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #336 - on: 05.05.2011 at 02:11 [UT+1] »Aside James randy being a Guru for rationalists, atheists etc, he really does not ever challenge anyone with any
knowledge and intellect. He made it clear on his web site with his million dollar challenge; a million dollars foranyone who can prove the validity of any paranormal, supernatural and occult physical effects.

Posts: 2200

He clearly says he is not interested in any theories. If he was then he would have to use some intuition andbrain power. He is only interested in disproving spoon bending or something really simple to comprehend heknows science will completely disprove. He doesn't care whether or not anything has symbolism or takes someknowledge to understand.
He thinks knows there is no "magic" which the laws of physics can't disprove so he never has to challenge hisviews but he has no values beyond the material. He is not even a scientist, an amateur detective maybe.

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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #337 - on: 05.05.2011 at 07:22 [UT+1] »I think it is entirely necessary to question the 'occultic arts' as they are grandly called at times, and that it isdesirable to do so. I think that astrology should be questioned, and to that end, one can see the usefulness of
someone like Randi, IF he were the type of person to seriously question astrology, not from the perspective of
automatically debunking it out of hand, but investigating its claims and doing a longitudinal study of some kind—some attempt to really test various outcomes, theories, etc. To my knowledge, only one skeptical person
whose mind WAS OPEN to whatever outcome he found, has attempted to analyse astrology, and that person isJess Stearn, who was a journalist in the 1970s. Most of the time, however, human beings seem to swing
between the two extremes of credulousness and absolute intolerance. Stearn gathered experience by going toastrologers and having them show him what they/we do, and then apply what he learned to his life. So his
focus was not to prove or disprove astrology, as much as to ask "how can it work." I have always found his
open-mindedness rare. I personally don't think it's important to prove or disprove astrology, as much as it isimportant to understand why it exists at all, what fuels its use nowadays, and why humans would want it orneed it. Someone like Randi glides over the surface of that need, and, just like anyone who is closed-minded,
ignores the real reasons people will continue to 'believe,' and continue to go to astrologers looking for somekind of human-created reassurance that the night sky isn't as impersonal as it seems.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #338 - on: 05.05.2011 at 16:29 [UT+1] »I value skepticism, and there is plenty of it, but what Randi does is something different from genericskepticism.
Another good example beyond Jess Stearn is Malcolm Dean, a Canadian journalist who took on astrology withhis book, The Astrology Game.

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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #339 - on: 05.05.2011 at 18:00 [UT+1] »Re James Randi:
There have been a couple of those "guess this person's career" threads on the forum recently that I thought
might qualify for Randi's challenge. One was by SunSagMoonLibra and turned out to be a New Zealand painter,and another one turned out to be Henry VIII. One good reason why these experiments would probably not
qualify, is that one can easily search the internet for suspects once one narrows down the person's birthday
through the positions of the outer planets, then Saturn, Jupiter etc. Several people in fact did this. The Henry
Posts: 2454

VIII one was ingenious because it fooled some people like me into looking at the outer planets, and thinking
that it was someone more modern.
But if anyone is interested in submitting a design for an experiment like this, and possibly prying Randi out of
his $1 million they should head over to JREF - possibly with a camera crew and lawyer or two in tow just for therecord.

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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #340 - on: 05.05.2011 at 19:40 [UT+1] »....

I don't think Randi has any real intention of handing his $1 mil over to anyone.... I will bet you he's

gonna move those goalposts into perpetuity...
Stephen, thank you for the book suggestion!
BTW, for those who maybe don't look at "Other Branches of Astrology" forum, I started a thread for thispurpose (of making suggestions re: resources).
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1304301435
Please leave suggestions there for everyone to see! Thanks!
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #341 - on: 07.05.2011 at 04:45 [UT+1] »Here's an old thread that dealt with the subject of cults:
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1245595168
boy, rummaging through the old vaults is a walk down memory lane...
so many memories...
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
ScorpSunGemMoonJup
Ex Member« Reply #342 - on: 13.05.2011 at 22:34 [UT+1] »Hermes Trismegistus

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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru

vertexMember« Reply #343 - on: 13.05.2011 at 22:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Calanthe Uigenna on 16.04.2011 at 11:53 [UT+1]:
It might interest you to know that Guru is the name for

Posts: 5576
Gender:F in vedic astrology. 'Gu' stands for darkness, and 'Ru' dispeller.

Quote from 100thMonkey on 16.04.2011 at 13:17 [UT+1]:
That is interesting Calantheguru Look up guru at Dictionary.com
1800, gooroo, from Hindi guru "teacher, priest," from Skt. guru-s "one to be honored, teacher," lit. "heavy, weighty," from PIE base *gru(see grave (adj.)). Generalized sense of "mentor" is from 1940; sense of "expert in something" first recorded c.1966 in Canadian English
in reference to Marshall McLuhan

I just finished Arroyo's "Exploring Jupiter" book and he wrote about the etymology of the word "education",
which I felt really is not so dissimilar to the real meaning of "guru"=teacher, guide and its etymology according
to the Upanishads ("he who disperses darkness/shadows")
I flipped through the book and can't find where I read about education's etymology two days ago, so I looked
it up on the internet, which gives a more detail explanation of the etymology.
education:1) e--> ex= Ex was a common preposition used in the Latin language that simply meant “from, out of, fromwithin”. As this word was common in everyday speech, ex was often shortened to e. In the Latin language, theRomans would attach the e in front of words in order to change the meaning or to intensify.
2) duco/ducere/duxi/ductus= Ducere is the infinitve form of the Latin verb duco, which means “to lead,
conduct, guide, etc.” Once the preposition ex was prefixed to ducere, the ending for the verb changed from ere to -are. Hence, we get the construction of the word educare.
The word educate is directly derived from the Latin word educare, which was constructed by combining the twowords, ex and ducere. The literal translation of educate is to draw out of, lead out of, etc. The Romans
considered educating to be synonymous with drawing knowledge out of somebody or leading them out ofregular thinking.
taken from: http://www.babeled.com/2008/11/27/word-power-education/
The etymology of guru: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru#Etymology
The syllable gu means shadows
The syllable ru, he who disperses them,
Because of the power to disperse darkness
the guru is thus named.
– Advayataraka Upanishad 14—18, verse 5

I realize that this thread has gone in different directions, but since the previous poster just revived this threadback to the first page, I thought I would mention it"
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beyond the stars
Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #344 - on: 14.05.2011 at 13:56 [UT+1] »Quote from ScorpSunGemMoonJup on 13.05.2011 at 22:34 [UT+1]:
Hermes Trismegistus

Hello... just wondering what this has to do with the subject of cults? I suppose it could be argued that Hermes
had his following... is that what you're referring to, or is it something that was included in the above thread I
pasted in from the wayback machine?
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ScorpSunGemMoonJupRe: Good Guru, Bad Guru

Ex Member« Reply #345 - on: 14.05.2011 at 16:23 [UT+1] »Quote from beyond the stars on 14.05.2011 at 13:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from ScorpSunGemMoonJup on 13.05.2011 at 22:34 [UT+1]:
Hermes Trismegistus

Hello... just wondering what this has to do with the subject of cults? I suppose it could be argued that Hermes had his following... is thatwhat you're referring to, or is it something that was included in the above thread I pasted in from the wayback machine?

The thread original poster asked about good gurus.I wasn't reffering to cult, I just gave an example of who I
believe to be a good guru ,even though he is a mitological figure. Thrice-greatest guru he is for he was theGreatest philosopher , priest and king.
Thats all

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Ms. Miranda
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #346 - on: 14.05.2011 at 17:23 [UT+1] »Quote from ScorpSunGemMoonJup on 14.05.2011 at 16:23 [UT+1]:
Quote from beyond the stars on 14.05.2011 at 13:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from ScorpSunGemMoonJup on 13.05.2011 at 22:34 [UT+1]:
Hermes Trismegistus

Hello... just wondering what this has to do with the subject of cults? I suppose it could be argued that Hermes had his
following... is that what you're referring to, or is it something that was included in the above thread I pasted in from thewayback machine?

The thread original poster asked about good gurus.I wasn't reffering to cult, I just gave an example of who I believe to be a good guru
,even though he is a mitological figure. Thrice-greatest guru he is for he was the Greatest philosopher , priest and king.
Thats allPosts: 3684
Gender:Beyond the Stars IS the original poster. I think you missed the point of the thread.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #347 - on: 14.05.2011 at 18:20 [UT+1] »I'm not sure whether HT was a real person. Hermes "thrice great" gets a lot of literal credit for inventing someof the occult arcana, like the Emerald Tablet, but I think he's meant to be a personification of the planet
Mercury, which symbolically communicates knowledge of the occult/astrological Sun, being the closest planet toour star.

Posts: 2454

Either way, "he" is a good guru, IMO. I think that some of the cults which have grown up around "him" can havetheir weirdness - for example the whole "hermetic" order idea is filled with secrecy and a sort of one-upmanship of knowing special knowledge, only revealed to the worthy. Perhaps this is an incentive to join the
clubs or orders which act as schools for it, I don't know. I find it interesting that when this knowledge wasrevealed (just the tip of the iceberg) by Rhonda Byrne a few years ago, in her book and film "The Secret", many
people thought it was worthless - just some New Agey scam.

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IP Logged~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #348 - on: 14.05.2011 at 19:33 [UT+1] »Hi !
Here a link with a true guru who speaks of the true knowledge, that we are all invited to discover inside of us,which is not a theory or something that is written in an old book... or a new book
http://www.wopg.org/en/webcasts/event-videos/1276-barcelona-spain-april-2011-vid
eo#ooid=t0ZTNmMjptDV-CyNUvGRfEGhLIrNp8S8
Prem Rawat is offering an experience that is beyond the words...
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Nada64

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #349 - on: 14.05.2011 at 23:23 [UT+1] »Quote from ~Jade~ on 14.05.2011 at 19:33 [UT+1]:
Hi !
Here a link with a true guru who speaks of the true knowledge, that we are all invited to discover inside of us, which is not a theory orsomething that is written in an old book... or a new book
http://www.wopg.org/en/webcasts/event-videos/1276-barcelona-spain-april-2011-vid eo#ooid=t0ZTNmMjptDVCyNUvGRfEGhLIrNp8S8
Prem Rawat is offering an experience that is beyond the words...

This is very, very touching and I will listen to it again tomorrow.
Thank you for sharing this.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
ScorpSunGemMoonJup
Ex Member« Reply #350 - on: 15.05.2011 at 00:06 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 14.05.2011 at 18:20 [UT+1]:
I'm not sure whether HT was a real person. Hermes "thrice great" gets a lot of literal credit for inventing some of the occult arcana, likethe Emerald Tablet, but I think he's meant to be a personification of the planet Mercury, which symbolically communicates knowledge ofthe occult/astrological Sun, being the closest planet to our star.
Either way, "he" is a good guru, IMO. I think that some of the cults which have grown up around "him" can have their weirdness - forexample the whole "hermetic" order idea is filled with secrecy and a sort of one-up-manship of knowing special knowledge, only revealed
to the worthy. Perhaps this is an incentive to join the clubs or orders which act as schools for it, I don't know. I find it interesting thatwhen this knowledge was revealed (just the tip of the iceberg) by Rhonda Byrne a few years ago, in her book and film "The Secret", many
people thought it was worthless - just some New Agey scam.

Having read the Hermetic texts (Corpus hermetica and some others) I can say freely that the mithological guru
HT was a great guru.From what Ive read I'm sure that HT was not a real person.I see him as a representing
symbol for the worlds religious heritage and also a wise prophet/guru much like Jesus.
Regarding the various hermetic cults Im not much into that and also not very sure how actually "hermetic"
those cults are.Like for example Crowleys sex magics, invocations ,mediumship etc have imo nothing to do withhermeticism... which to me is more of a philosopical/religious system much like gnosticism.I agree that muchof the hermetic material is spiritual in essence and requires perception but I think that the so called hermetic
cults are more based on mediumship and other exotic esoteric practices rather than only spiritual religious
enlightment.
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beyond the stars

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #351 - on: 15.05.2011 at 10:14 [UT+1] »I think the relevant data is that this is a mythological character. I am going to have to think about ways you
could make Hermes Trisgemistus a 'good guru.' Maybe you can. It would be of interest to argue, okay, so, if
Hermes T. could be considered a 'good guru,' then are we extending this role to all mythological figures, or justhim? Because that then opens up the field to the gods in general, who, after all, had their cult-like followings,
with shrines and other religious centers opened in their honor.
I don't know: I suppose you could form a cult around anyone, really. I suppose almost anyone could qualify as
a guru. I think, strictly speaking, they have to be alive and not a god, however.
Thank you Miranda.
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Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru

MyriosEx Member« Reply #352 - on: 15.05.2011 at 16:34 [UT+1] »Quote from vertex on 13.05.2011 at 22:58 [UT+1]:
Quote from Calanthe Uigenna on 16.04.2011 at 11:53 [UT+1]:
It might interest you to know that Guru is the name for

F in vedic astrology. 'Gu' stands for darkness, and 'Ru' dispeller.

Quote from 100thMonkey on 16.04.2011 at 13:17 [UT+1]:
That is interesting Calantheguru Look up guru at Dictionary.com
1800, gooroo, from Hindi guru "teacher, priest," from Skt. guru-s "one to be honored, teacher," lit. "heavy, weighty," from
PIE base *gru- (see grave (adj.)). Generalized sense of "mentor" is from 1940; sense of "expert in something" firstrecorded c.1966 in Canadian English in reference to Marshall McLuhan

I just finished Arroyo's "Exploring Jupiter" book and he wrote about the etymology of the word "education", which I felt really is not so
dissimilar to the real meaning of "guru"=teacher, guide and its etymology according to the Upanishads ("he who disperses
darkness/shadows")
I flipped through the book and can't find where I read about education's etymology two days ago, so I looked it up on the internet, which
gives a more detail explanation of the etymology.
education:1) e--> ex= Ex was a common preposition used in the Latin language that simply meant “from, out of, from within”. As this word wascommon in everyday speech, ex was often shortened to e. In the Latin language, the Romans would attach the e in front of words in orderto change the meaning or to intensify.
2) duco/ducere/duxi/ductus= Ducere is the infinitve form of the Latin verb duco, which means “to lead, conduct, guide, etc.” Once thepreposition ex was prefixed to ducere, the ending for the verb changed from -ere to -are. Hence, we get the construction of the wordeducare.
The word educate is directly derived from the Latin word educare, which was constructed by combining the two words, ex and ducere. The
literal translation of educate is to draw out of, lead out of, etc. The Romans considered educating to be synonymous with drawing
knowledge out of somebody or leading them out of regular thinking.
taken from: http://www.babeled.com/2008/11/27/word-power-education/
The etymology of guru: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru#Etymology
The syllable gu means shadows
The syllable ru, he who disperses them,
Because of the power to disperse darkness
the guru is thus named.
– Advayataraka Upanishad 14—18, verse 5

I realize that this thread has gone in different directions, but since the previous poster just revived this thread back to the first page, I
thought I would mention it"

Thanks much for the above material, you two, just want to point out vis-a-vis the locked down Zelator
discussions -Hieroglyphic RU or RHO - () - refers also to the mouth or feminine yoni, both being organs of "uttering" -from the Egyptian hieroglyph RHO (as I've seen it spelled) {nb. Mercury/Thoth/Trismegistus connections} -and as for the above references to "lead" -- note this was the element used by the alchemists as the'philosopher's stone' for 'inner trans-formation) -- and then secondly, further used as the (also alchemical)
element in pencils, thus -- "lead" -- as a widespread schooling device or 'drawing' wooden stick/instrument(stick of the Fool on the Path of Initiation) used to produce the 'magical' alphabetical-alchemical symbols or
pictures for transformation of the student's mind - in this sense, I see then that the 'mind' has been 'trained' toforget the 'individual soul' in preference of steering social 'norms' through the alchemical process of reading
and writing.

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Evolving

Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #353 - on: 16.05.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1] »Quote from ~Jade~ on 14.05.2011 at 19:33 [UT+1]:
Hi !
Here a link with a true guru who speaks of the true knowledge, that we are all invited to discover inside of us, which is not a theory orsomething that is written in an old book... or a new book
http://www.wopg.org/en/webcasts/event-videos/1276-barcelona-spain-april-2011-vid eo#ooid=t0ZTNmMjptDVCyNUvGRfEGhLIrNp8S8
Prem Rawat is offering an experience that is beyond the words...

Posts: 400

Watch 1/2 of this so far...
When I hit reply here, I got an inner message that said you (I) can't love for just one day. I understand what
he means tho. My lAhB feels that only ONE day would be 'prostitution.' I'd be interested in his chart. I
sense k He speaks of knowing.
ah-ha... found him online - http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/cBHBnj4zYEss.htm
Him and I share kD

iAmG dB and I like the fact he gets back to feelings and society / religion reverse engineering.
Well, when I get more time, I'll watch the rest and review in total again.
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IP Logged~Jade~Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #354 - on: 16.05.2011 at 22:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Evolving on 16.05.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1]:(...)
Well, when I get more time, I'll watch the rest and review in total again.

... take your time. It's a very deep subject, but lesser complicated than astrology... Once again, it's about an
inner experience ... It's not a debate, or a speech... The question is very ancient... Who am I ? What's life ? Wego back to the essential. Not the astral theme... but the thing that keeps us alive. Anyone interested can havethis knowledge that was so secret for so long, and reserved to few initiated... All the great masters have all said
the same : it's inside of you, but we continue to search outside. I give a testimony : that is fondamental.
Moreover, this is free of charge. Very important point in a world were money seems to be the only master that
we accept.
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Nada64

Ex Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #355 - on: 16.05.2011 at 22:49 [UT+1] »What happenend to Beyond the Stars?
Why is she an ex-member???
Something I missed?
Too bad. I liked her points of view.
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Matrika Matters
Member

Re: Good Guru, Bad Guru
« Reply #356 - on: 18.05.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1] »Nada64, she comes and goes so I think you can look out for her to be back, mostly with a new nic.

Posts: 7405

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