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Horoscope and layers of reality (Read 350 times)

ramez nas
Ex MemberHoroscope and layers of reality« on: 25.01.2009 at 20:01 [UT] »I've been wondering for a while on how many layers of reality should an aspect manifest itself.
Example: suppose I have a Saturn transit in h4. Can I avoid more serious things to happen (let's say myfather's death) by putting black shades on my windows, locking my door and contemplating on matters of lifeand death with a goat's skull nearby?
I know that sounds stupid, but to what extent can we intentionally create the circumstances that symbolize theaspect in question? Or is the layer of reality we want the aspect to appear not our choice?
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Re: Horoscope and layers of reality

Black Mist

Ex Member« Reply #1 - on: 25.01.2009 at 20:18 [UT] »HiYour question is intriguing...though i'm not sure if i understand exactly what you mean. So can i just ask using other words - to see if i understand you correctly:
Are you asking, if we can deliberately play out a transit in an inner/imaginary level and in this way prevent/stop
the transit by manifesting in outer world/material level?

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Ms. Miranda
Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #2 - on: 25.01.2009 at 20:21 [UT] »Realities or only limited by the perceptions one is capable of. But, in truth, there are infinite possibilities. We
have the ability to choose how we see things, but if we are relgating ourselves to work from a place of
behavioral habit, then it can feel like we have no part in it. It is difficult to override perceptions if we have reliedon them for a long time, but, I think, with practice, they can easily be overcome if that is truly what one
desires. Forcing yourself into a perception/reality isn't working in harmony with your deep inner belief system.
In short realities are not finite, they are infinite, even within a house transit experience. I think that is a major
reason why we can all have a G transit and share such a variety of experiences and intensities. Course, thenyou also have to factor in that we all do not process oue experiences identically. It's all relative. It's all personal.
Yet there can be some common flavors that pop up. With so many players in the universe affecting the energies
of our cahrts, there can be very watered down experiences with a T G H4 transit one year versus another. And
with every transit, hopefully, there is wisdom that changes the flavor or it for us each time.
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Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #3 - on: 25.01.2009 at 20:23 [UT] »Thanks Black Mist. Yeah, it's partly that.. and partly on how many levels should we experience one aspect.
To remain with the above example if I was born with Saturn in h4, is it enough for me to experience my father's
early death or does this aspect also mean that I shall also have Staurn-like step-fathers who will constantly giveme that h4 Saturn sensation, plus at the end of my life I will live in poverty and loneliness?
Sorry for the hasty posting, I actually have 2 questions then.
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IP LoggedBlack Mist
Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #4 - on: 25.01.2009 at 20:50 [UT] »Ok ramez

it's a deep and multi-layered question in and of itself...

Generally i think we experience things in as many dimensions as we allow ourselves to be aware of. Aspects inthe chart may indicate preferred reality levels of dealing with life (emotional, physical, mental,
introvert/extrovert etc) but our level of psychological maturity and consciousness is very important too, in our
response to life events.

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Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #5 - on: 25.01.2009 at 21:21 [UT] »BM, you're such a nice and thorough person, and I'm sure that h1 Saturn taught you tough but great lessons.
I don't want to deceive anybody with my example, I actually have Saturn in h10, that h4 Saturn was just atheoretical example. I'm certain that even father Kronos in that house can have positive effects, which I totallyleft out..
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IP LoggedBlack Mist
Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #6 - on: 25.01.2009 at 21:33 [UT] »No problem

just adjusted my post to fit in more with the gist of the thread then.

look forward to see what other people think of your questions. What do you think about it yourself?
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realworld

Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #7 - on: 25.01.2009 at 22:02 [UT] »Quote from ramez nas on 25.01.2009 at 20:01 [UT]:
I've been wondering for a while on how many layers of reality should an aspect manifest itself.
Example: suppose I have a Saturn transit in h4. Can I avoid more serious things to happen (let's say my father's death) by putting black
shades on my windows, locking my door and contemplating on matters of life and death with a goat's skull nearby?
I know that sounds stupid, but to what extent can we intentionally create the circumstances that symbolize the aspect in question? Or is
the layer of reality we want the aspect to appear not our choice?

Hi ramez nas,
This idea is not stupid at all! In fact it is a technique that is well known with some astrologers. The technique
has a name: I can't remember the whole term but it's called something like "Spiritual Substitution".
There was an article about the technique a few years ago by Bruce Scofield in The Mountain Astrologer, but all I
can remember about the article is a picture of a toilet. The main point though was that we can change the levelof manifestation of a natal position, aspect or transit though our free will, by imagining what we want tohappen, in harmony with the more positive symbolism of the planets/aspects concerned.
The basis for the substitution is that there are 4 levels of manifestation for planetary energies - the spiritual,mental, emotional and physical. We can, in theory, direct the energy through meditation to whatever level wechose.
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Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #8 - on: 25.01.2009 at 22:08 [UT] »I read a book about the way of thinking astrology applies..symbolic that is. In that book the author tries to
explain it with analogies and gives a long row of phenomena corresponding with a misterious principium x.
These are the colour black, goat, raven, structure, inhibition, lead, lime, skeleton, teeth, raven, mountain, coldheath, miners, old people.. He writes these words under each other and finally tells us that principium x is
Saturn.
He concludes that reality is devided by principia horizontally and levels or layers of reality vertically.
Now he believes that for fate it doesn't matter on which level we experience eg. a EoG. If we are lessconscious we might crash into a wood with 180 km/h. Or if we are aware of that transit we can start learning
karate so that Martian and Saturnian energies blend and are experienced together. Similarly with a heavy
Saturn transit we should start to prefer solitude, meditate on the tarot card Death, read certain parts of the
Bible or the Tibethian book of Death in a dark room. And so on.
Basically he seems to believe (though he doesn't say it) that we can't choose the principum that concerns us at
a given point in time (time has quality, not just quantity), but we can choose the layer of reality we mightexperience.
I really dunno if he is right or wrong that's why I posted the question.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #9 - on: 26.01.2009 at 23:25 [UT] »My experience is that the perspective you describe is accurate.
- Ed
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IP LoggedLisalu
Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #10 - on: 26.01.2009 at 23:36 [UT] »Quote from ramez nas on 25.01.2009 at 22:08 [UT]:

He concludes that reality is devided by principia horizontally and levels or layers of reality vertically.

Can you explain what you mean by this equation ?
It sounds like the symbolism for the Christian Cross
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Richard Vetter

Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #11 - on: 26.01.2009 at 23:49 [UT] »Quote from ramez nas on 25.01.2009 at 22:08 [UT]:
I read a book about the way of thinking astrology applies..symbolic that is. In that book the author tries to explain it with analogies andgives a long row of phenomena corresponding with a misterious principium x...

In the early 80s I was a disciple of the author quoted (Dethlefsen). He was (and maybe still is) into magic - andthat's imho the central question: can we - or better: should we - purposefully ("magically") choose a principle's
Posts: 1313
Gender:level of realisation?
On the other hand, Dethlefsen also said that we can't - and even shouldn't - avoid destiny...

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Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #12 - on: 27.01.2009 at 09:38 [UT] »Thanks Ed. Would you mind writing more about your experience?

Lisalu, I don't know how Dethlefsen got to this conclusion, but it's true that he is blending a whole lot of ideas

and theories together to form this opinion, so no wonder it made you think of the Christian Cross.
By principia he means the long row of phenomena related to one astrological symbol. When a time quality
allows these symbols to appear in reality they might appear in any form that is part of their symbolism. That isquite Jungian for me and corresponds with his synchronicity theory.

So Richard, don't you think that Dethlefsen got into conflict with himself? I mean at first he says we have thechoice and then he says there is destiny..?
And how was it at Mr. D? Did you find his teachings useful?
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Richard Vetter

Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #13 - on: 27.01.2009 at 10:01 [UT] »Quote from ramez nas on 27.01.2009 at 09:38 [UT]:
So Richard, don't you think that Dethlefsen got into conflict with himself? I mean at first he says we have the choice and then he says
there is destiny..?

Yeah, that's sort of a contradiction...
Quote:
Posts: 1313
Gender:And how was it at Mr. D? Did you find his teachings useful?

He was giving a good overview and structuring of Western esoterics (Kabbalah, Tarot, and so on). Veryilluminating for the young man I was then.
Though he was mentally-intellectually-theoretically brilliant, I personally missed in him and in his teachings thewarmth and heart , yet (so I didn't finish his training to become a reincarnation therapist).
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daylia
Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #14 - on: 27.01.2009 at 12:23 [UT] »realworld said
Quote:...The main point though was that we can change the level of manifestation of a natal position, aspect or transit though our free will, by
imagining what we want to happen, in harmony with the more positive symbolism of the planets/aspects concerned...

Very interesting! Last spring, a friend booked a holiday in Jamaica, at the same time her progressed Moon
reached 29 Pisces ie the fixed star Sheat, in her H9 (foreign places). Sheat being associated with accidents,
particularly drowning, she applied this technique and directed the energy in a positive way - by planning somescuba diving lessons during the vacation. She had a great time, learned to scuba dive, returned home safe andsound Sheat or no Sheat.
So - was the dreaded Sheat thwarted by her efforts -- or had she just changed her expectations, replacing
worry with confidence through positive action involving both travel and water -- thus attracting the morepositive manifestation of this influence? Not sure, but I guess it really doesn't matter. Point is -- in her own
mind, she'd "owned" the energy in the best way she could think of.
I'd like to think of a good way to apply the technique to my own transits right now, actually. The eclipse
yesterday was exactly conj my E/MC nO/IC. Hmmm ... something about accidents and electricity, in public or
at home .... well, I've been stepping up my stretch and exercise (E) routine lately, will do that even more overthe next few weeks, try to think of soemthing else too .... anyway, before i ramble on forever thanks for the
food for thought and an interesting thread, folks.
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #15 - on: 27.01.2009 at 14:16 [UT] »Quote from ramez nas on 25.01.2009 at 22:08 [UT]:.
Now he believes that for fate it doesn't matter on which level we experience eg. a

EoG. If we are less conscious we might crash into awood with 180 km/h. Or if we are aware of that transit we can start learning karate so that Martian and Saturnian energies blend and areexperienced together. Similarly with a heavy Saturn transit we should start to prefer solitude, meditate on the tarot card Death, readcertain parts of the Bible or the Tibethian book of Death in a dark room. And so on.

I take your point here, but Im wondering if a person doesnt study astrology, how they might be aware of thepossible effects of a EoG transit or a sudden unexpected transit like EoO?
Obviously you dont need to study astrology to be an aware soul...
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IP LoggedLisalu
Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #16 - on: 27.01.2009 at 14:32 [UT] »Maybe im way off track here and possibly at the risk of throwing something rather unpopular in, i will try andput forth some ideas from a book i was reading, Thick Face Black Heart by Chin-Ning Chu a self proclaimed
expert on the Asian business mind.
The author cites her references from two texts, Sun Tzu's, The Art of War and Lee Zhong Wu's Thick Black
TheoryI find it interesting because it says something quite different than a lot of western/ new age/ self help styletheoryYou can succeed the way you are
In the past few decades, the idea that we need to change our negative thoughts into positive thoughts has
been pounded into us. We have been put under a lot of pressure to embrace positive thinking. The pressure of
not living up to this ideal is actually worse than negativity itself, that there must be something wrong with us,which leads to the conclusion, 'I am no good and am a born loser'.
Success has no rules
Success comes in every shape and profile. Success comes to some of the most negative people as well as themost positive. Success comes to those that try hard and to those who make no visible effort. Promoters of
positive thinking theories fail to realise that success does not discriminate, it can come to those who project
either negative or positive attitudes. This is not to depreciate the benefits of positive thinking. however, if you
are not naturally a positive thinker, then you can be successful even though you might be negative by nature.
The author cites Mark Twain, labelled a pessimist and a sarcastic skeptic with stories often about the dammed
human race, yet these unique qualities contributed to his literary genius
Elizabeth Taylor - champion ablities to create her own sicknesses, Spencer Tracy, a moody guilt ridden individualwith low self esteem, Humphrey Bogart, Bette Midler etc. We could add Marilyn Monroe and Ernest Hemingway
too (not advocating suicide here) The point being all these people projected negativity, yet still became hugely
successful
Let Negativities Be
We are all programmed to believe certain behaviors and tendencies are positive and others negative. We
commonly accept that positive behavior promotes success and negative behavior is doomed to fail, unless you
can change your behavior and your thinking, Thus we spend an enormous amount of energy trying to change
how we are, rather than focusing on being successful.
So, if you consider yourself a negative individual and your inner voice tells you, 'you can't do it'. Don't fightback. Yield to that voice by ignoring it. Don't focus your energy in an attempt to change your opinion of
yourself. By ignoring your voice you are able to avoid the trap that says, 'change comes before success'. You
can be as negative as you want to be, cursing and moping, while doing what you are supposed to do in thecourse of success.
The Power of Hating Life
If you think your life is a drag and you hate it, you can benefit by changing the object of that hate. Instead of
hating life, hate god. Ironically many people love god, but hate everybody else.
If hatred exists within you, you can benefit by rechanneling that hate from man to god, since the essence of
god is love. Unlike humans, god cares not whether you love him or hate him. He is like a fire which you may
love or hate, but as long as you come close to the fire, he will warm you. The emotions of hate and love comefrom the same source
Revelation 3:16 'So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, i will spew thee out of mymouth'The only time god will ignore you and silently wait, is when you ignore him. As long as you focus yourattention to god he will purify you, support and rehabilitate you. You may then see your hatred transformed
into divine loveYour negativity does not have as much power as your imagination thinks it does.
We have all been told how powerful our thoughts are. This concept has exacerbated our fear of ouruncontrolled thoughts. What would happen if all our negative thoughts came true?
The power of thinking is not that simple. You have no power to manifest your every thought. Not yet. Your
negativity does not have as much power as your imagination thinks it does.
Everytime a jet takes off, with hundreds of passengers aboard, a large percentage of passengers entertain thethought that the plane might crash. If your power of negative thinking is as powerful as you have imagined,with the collective negative power among the passengers, we might never have a successful landing.
Dont fear your negative thoughts. Devote yourself to your craft with tenacity and determination and you will
be much closer to success than by struggling to change yourself first
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Ceto*

Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #17 - on: 27.01.2009 at 15:15 [UT] »That is cool Lisalu,
I don't see anything wrong with being negative or overly positive, the only problem I have, with myself, is that
I just will not allow myself to be miserable for long periods. Any extreme or constant state of intellectual,
emotional or spiritual being becomes stagnant and eventually draining/boring. If I thought my b/chart was only
to be expressed on one level I would stop with the astrology. From my experience the aspects and transits cango as high as we are capable of comprehending and experiencing them, not amount to much and be absolutely
destructive.
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I think that there is genius/insanity in every angle/aspect, it depends on whether our souls can or want to see
or experience the different levels that are there in aspects and charts... And it all gets very esoterical after that.

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LisaluEx Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #18 - on: 27.01.2009 at 15:23 [UT] »Quote from Cygnet on 27.01.2009 at 15:15 [UT]:
I think that there is genius/insanity in every angle/aspect, it depends on whether our souls can or want to see or experience the different
levels that are there in aspects and charts... And it all gets very esoterical after that.

yes i'm with you there...
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Das Stavrou

Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #19 - on: 27.01.2009 at 17:24 [UT] »Quote from ramez nas on 27.01.2009 at 09:38 [UT]:Thanks Ed. Would you mind writing more about your experience?

Lisalu, I don't know how Dethlefsen got to this conclusion, but it's true that he is blending a whole lot of ideas and theories together toform this opinion, so no wonder it made you think of the Christian Cross.
By principia he means the long row of phenomena related to one astrological symbol. When a time quality allows these symbols to appear
in reality they might appear in any form that is part of their symbolism. That is quite Jungian for me and corresponds with his
synchronicity theory.

So Richard, don't you think that Dethlefsen got into conflict with himself? I mean at first he says we have the choice andthen he says there is destiny..?
And how was it at Mr. D? Did you find his teachings useful?

Theirin lies the beauty. With karmic programming and impulses through every molecular strata of our charts,
we are seemingly destined for experiences through our psychological make up, which if you realise this during
your everyday process makes us totally free to do what we want ironically. Running by your original question, ibelieve that you can work with the energy as you please, as long as your spirit is experiencing it. In yourexample of Saturn crossing the 4th for instance, the subject will experience an examination of the difficulties
currently regarding their internal energy processes, their boundaries and unifying principles. I think how can be,
as you say, co created.
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IP Loggedramez nas
Ex Member

Re: Horoscope and layers of reality« Reply #20 - on: 27.01.2009 at 17:47 [UT] »Quote from Lisalu on 27.01.2009 at 14:16 [UT]:
I take your point here, but Im wondering if a person doesnt study astrology, how they might be aware of the possible effects of atransit or a sudden unexpected transit like

EoG

EoO?

Obviously you dont need to study astrology to be an aware soul...

Oh no, we don't. Astrology is not the top of the principia row, it's only one layer that can be used as atechnique to understand the quality of time. If you are a shaman, you can have the same awareness from theflight of birds, or the bowels of animals. If you prefer cleaner methods you can use Tarot, or if you're a Jungian
analyst synchronistic events are just as informative. The different levels of reality function as a time-o-meter.
They don't cause the events, but indicate them..and if you have eyes for them you're the winner.
Your quote from that book is great. I loved every word of it. I might order it.
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