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Incest (Read 1887 times)

Bertha1
Ex Member

Incest« on: 18.03.2009 at 21:58 [UT] »I recently lost my mother, and it brought up a lot of feelings to deal with.
From my earlier posts it is pretty obvious, that I am going through a hard time, as my relationship with mymother was non-existing.
Tonight my brothers told me, they have been suspecting, that my mother was molested when she was a childby my grandfather. I am in chok to hear this, and since there are no one to ask, I was wondering if a chart cantell?
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Evescaduceus

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #1 - on: 18.03.2009 at 22:53 [UT] »Vivian Robson's The Astrology of Sex has a section devoted to indicators of incest in the natal chart that might
be well worth a look if you have accurate birth times for those in question.
I have found Robson's observations to be quite accurate in other ways, so I recommend it.

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Lycos
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #2 - on: 19.03.2009 at 00:05 [UT] »I'd guess you could start by checking for hard J aspects to D...also check for G or the outer planets near theIC, and if appropriate, see how these impact D as well. Might want to look into your grandfather's chart too, if
you are able.
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itzme

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #3 - on: 19.03.2009 at 00:19 [UT] »If you want to post her chart we can look further.
I'd think that Neptune would be involved either a critical degree or in aspect to the other personal planets.
Often the 2-8th House Axis. Its the axis some call "The Axis of Desire"I suppose because of it's 8th house involvement with other's assets, money or sexual things and then the 2nd
with Values.
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Re: Incest« Reply #4 - on: 19.03.2009 at 02:53 [UT] »I've not read Vivian Robson's book, but if you have your mother's and grandfather's chart (even without birthtimes) a couple of things to look for:
1. Pluto opposite sun in your mother's chart. This at least generally indicates a difficult relationship with Dad.
(Maybe also Pluto conjunct or square sun. Also look to Saturn if you know she had a night birth.)
2. Pluto-/Venus conjunctions or difficult aspects in your grandfather's chart.
3. Difficult Pluto/Moon aspects (including the conjunction) in Mom's chart. Unless her own mother (yourgrandmother) was truly absent from the home, one of the big questions with father-daughter incest is why the
Posts: 14740
Gender:mother does not intervene and protect her daughter from incest. Sometimes she has her own problems.
Looking at your grandmother's chart would also help to develop a more complete family picture.
4. Not everyone has a personal asteroid, meaning an asteroid that has someone's name. This would include
cognate names in another language. For example, "Louis" would also equate to "Lewis", "Luigi", "Ludwig" &c.
If you can find these for your mother and grandfather (scroll down to the bottom of the page on the free
charts section for astrodienst, just before you construct the chart--it will show you how to locate asteroids,
then input their number), plot them on one another's chart.
5. Then look at the synastry. For example, a man's Mars conjunct a woman's Venus is generally an indicationof sexual attraction. A woman's Venus hitting a man's Pluto, for example, might also indicate a kind ofunderworldly obsession.
But I would stress that the above are only suggestive, not definitive. It is possible that a father has sexual
feelings about his daughter, and that she picks up on these. It doesn't mean that he acted on them. One
would have to think well of a man who couldn't help feeling sexually attracted to his daughter, but who
absolutely refused to harm her by acting on his impulses.
If your mother was a victim of childhood incest, it could have been very scarring for her. Symptoms can
include post-traumatic stress disorder and fear of intimacy.
Good luck with this, Bertha! And how is your own natal moon faring?

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CallieEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #5 - on: 19.03.2009 at 08:33 [UT] »Bertha I find this kind of thing horribly distasteful.
I know you are struggling with anger for your mother and I know it might ease your tension to know she
suffered....but on another level and another view.....I find this intrusion into a mother's life and memory anaffront and a violation of her and her life.
Had she wanted to let you know - she would have. There surely must be some respect for a person post theirlife?
It definitely is my personal opinion - but a strong one - so I thought I would mention this to hopefully
discourage you a little from diffing into that dirt bin.
And the biggest thing here is that nobody can tell you anyway whether she was a vicitm of incest. It's horrible
and its speculation....on top of everythign else......
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Bertha1
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #6 - on: 19.03.2009 at 08:47 [UT] »Callie,I am not able to delete this thread. Sorry.
Your post is one of those that does not encourage one to learn more about astrology in order to use astrology
as a tool to get insight and perhaps some understanding.
Incest sure is an ugly thing and we should all make an effort to hide it, so that women will keep it as a secret.
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Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #7 - on: 19.03.2009 at 09:45 [UT] »Bertha IF your mom was a victim - you cannot now know for sure and you sully her name & memory with
speculation. She chose her reaction. yes it is an individual's decision what to do and how to carry that burden
and pain. I don't think speaking about it does anything.
I take my hat off to the Austrian mother for having the courage to face her father in the courtroom. She did
what was necessary and found the courage to do it with but it's not for us to go digging even into her chart 'to
see what it had'. Somethings just should remain private to the individual to deal with. And I do honour theirdecisions.
And no - I wouldn't teach any pointers online either. It's just too damaging information to give out willy nilly
to all and sundry who read. That I would say is irresponsible.
Anyway - it as I said - it is my personal opinion. I will leave you to yours.
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Bertha1
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #8 - on: 19.03.2009 at 10:40 [UT] »Callie,it is a fact that molested kids feel guilt and keep it as a secret. It is also a fact that facing/dealing with it, helps
to make it a little less horrible to live with.
In my country the law for reporting molestation is longer than with other crimes, as it is quite often people
need to be grown up before they are able to deal with it.
My sister was molested as a kid, and it took her 30 years before she told anyone. She has been in therapy foralmost 4 years by now.
Callie, I don't think it is a private thing. We need more information about this horrible act, so that kids in the
future will be able to know it is not okay, even if ones loved and trusted ones tells something different!
Silence is not the solution to making incest go away.
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Peony

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #9 - on: 19.03.2009 at 11:36 [UT] »Hi Bertha,
im sorry to hear about your mother. I can understand you wanting to learn more about what happened andalso understand your mother more better.. I can also see this topic is taboo and controversial and very difficult
for some to discuss or read about. I find it quite hard myself to read, if i have seen 'incest' featured inmagazine articles...its not pleasant reading but then it happens, it exists. And i agree with you that it shouldn't
be kept a secret or the sufferers have to suffer in silence. I believe that many victims of abuse are often too
afraid to tell people, or don't have family support and some will take their 'secret' to the grave. Maybe yourmother wanted to tell you but she didn't know how or how you would react or she didn't want to upset you.

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ClairMember

Re: Incest« Reply #10 - on: 19.03.2009 at 15:12 [UT] »Hi Bertha,
I appreciate you sharing your story and expressing your truth in regards to dealing with things with yourmother, and also exploring the possibilities of certain family dynamics, events, and/or experiences. Thiscertainly is a delicate topic and should be handled with much care and sensitivity. That being said, it is also
extremely important that things be communicated and brought out into the open to be discussed. Pieces canbe put together in whatever form they may take. But I do agree that talking about it and exploring things aresome of the only ways to "know" to the best of one's ability.
My Mom experienced sexual abuse (and many other forms of abuse) from both of her parents. I think it can be
Posts: 728
Gender:difficult to pinpoint things like this in a chart, but along with evidence, intuition, etc. pieces can be put
together. My Mom has a Scorpio Stellium in her 4th house and she has Sun sq Pluto and Sun conj Moon. Thoseare just some things that could possibly explain some of the energies that we know to exist. I have both of herparents (my grandparent's) charts and so I'm still taking a look at the dynamics that exist.
Anyway, it seems like some people here have given you some solid pointers and insight into what to look forastrologically and otherwise, if anything at all. Whether or not a chart can "tell", it seems appropriate to try todiscern a level of truth, for whatever that means, and for whatever it is worth.
Best of luck to you on this journey.

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PerceNeige

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #11 - on: 19.03.2009 at 15:24 [UT] »The only dangerous and ugly thing is to brush such issues under the carpet.
They EXIST and form part of our shadow - they can only be dealt with and resolved when people start talking
about such issues likedeath, incest, pain, violation, abuse and whatever you have.
These are heavily plutonian issues and a great part of the pain of the victims is due to ignorance and denial.
PN
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truegem620
Member

Re: Incest« Reply #12 - on: 19.03.2009 at 15:53 [UT] »Quote from Bertha1 on 18.03.2009 at 21:58 [UT]:I recently lost my mother, and it brought up a lot of feelings to deal with.
From my earlier posts it is pretty obvious, that I am going through a hard time, as my relationship with my mother was non-existing.
Tonight my brothers told me, they have been suspecting, that my mother was molested when she was a child by my grandfather. I am inchok to hear this, and since there are no one to ask, I was wondering if a chart can tell?

Posts: 4466
Gender:Can you tell us why your brothers suspect this? What are they basing this on?
We can see a lot of things in the chart, but above all what we see is potential and not necessarily always theexact way energies unfold.
With that said, it may be more beneficial for you to look at her chart without looking for definitives. By that, I
mean if the potential of molestation is there- this does not have to have actually happened for that aspect tohave an effect on your mother. She may not have been physically molested; but such an aspect could remain
to manifest a feeeeeling of molestation. A sort of 'victim' complex. Does that make sense to you? This typeof thing can contribute to false memory, which I'm sure you've heard of. Where people will think they weremolested, even have recall of memories of it...only to find out later they manifested this 'false' memory ofabuse which never actually happened.
I might suggest to you it is more important to understand the psyche side of your mother in that regard,
rather then looking for something that 'may' have happened to cause physical harm or not.
In actual life you can request medical records. Likely nothing would have been reported, but you never know if
a doctor may have made an unusual observation and noted it.
It may sound odd, but in my opinion it doesn't really have to matter is she was actually sexually assaulted inanyway. If the aspect is there to support these suspsicions, she may have manifested this through her own
experiences, creating the victim complex through experience. If we feeel something strongly enough it can beas powerful and the projections can be as powerful as the actual occurence if we never deal with what it is thatis making us feeel that way.
Hope this is in some way helpful. But it won't change the relationship you had with you mother. Perhaps thisis actually manifesting for you because no matter in what sense or for what reasons, the extension ofcompassion for your mother's life is necessary. We all have a story, and our behaviors are a result of that story.
Sometimes we can't know all the details of someone's life, and sometimes we don't really need to in order toextend compassion to the person anyway.

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truegem620

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #13 - on: 19.03.2009 at 16:00 [UT] »Quote from PerceNeige on 19.03.2009 at 15:24 [UT]:The only dangerous and ugly thing is to brush such issues under the carpet.
They EXIST and form part of our shadow - they can only be dealt with and resolved when people start talking about such issues likedeath, incest, pain, violation, abuse and whatever you have.
These are heavily plutonian issues and a great part of the pain of the victims is due to ignorance and denial.
PN

Posts: 4466
Gender:I have read all the replies here- and I can say I don't think anyone is trying to brush these existing issues under
the rug. They are rather warning against the serious dangers and ramifications of making assumptions of what
can no longer be proven, as the person is already deceased.
They are quite right and correct in warning against opening wounds where doors have closed long enough agothat there is now a hairline fissure between reality and psychic manifestation. You can look at the fissure all
you want with a microscope, you can even make assumptions as to how it got there...but seeing as the events
which caused this are in the past, there is no way to know for certain and any information collected via thenatal therin is speculative.
The existence of this in our SHADOW does not, should not be considered definitive proof that this ever
manifested in reality.

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hss4x4
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #14 - on: 19.03.2009 at 16:01 [UT] »this is a touchy and sensitive issue. Can you explain a bit about you and your relationship to your mother? post
your chart and hers if possible?

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zippyMember

Re: Incest« Reply #15 - on: 19.03.2009 at 17:11 [UT] »My Mother was sexually abused by her father (my grandfather), she grew up with a lot of baggage which she
carried on to us kids. I think it is important to understand, especially after death and especially when you
didn't have a close relationship to your Mother. It becomes more important because you can't confront theissue directly. This is what happened when my father died.
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If your brothers suspect incest there very well may be a reason. It is uncommon to suspect incest withoutsome strong reasons. I recently learned from one of my brothers that my Mom had attempted to seduce him
as a child. Unless one had to grow up in such a dysfunctional childhood and understands how it's passed on
through each generation, the cycle won't stop.
After reading Waybread's post I looked at my Mother's chart and sure enough her Sun is opposed by Pluto. I
haven't looked at some of her other indicators yet, and like everything else in astrology, you need more than
one indicator. (Not every single person with Sun opposite Pluto will be a victim of incest).
I'm sorry, but I don't know anyone with "false memories", but I know a lot of survivors, and children ofsurvivors, including myself. Understanding does bring closure, talk to your siblings and think about seeing agood therapist. Know you aren't alone, and that you have every right to want to know the truth.

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Bertha1
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #16 - on: 19.03.2009 at 17:17 [UT] »Thank you all of you for contributing to this delicate matter.
I am not going to post my mothers chart as it would offend some people here, but if you click on my name you
will find my chart in other posts. It will reveal that I have a Moon/Saturn/IC conj. Three of my siblings also
have the Moon/Saturn conj and the two others have afficted childhood issues also.
The main reason for mentioning that my brothers have brought it up, is that one of them is a police officer
with a lot of experience with the psycology concerning incest.
I am not really sure what I think of it myself, but no doubt my mother had problems with intimacy....and aweird relationship with my grandfather.....
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zippyMember

Re: Incest« Reply #17 - on: 19.03.2009 at 17:23 [UT] »Astro Data Bank has some charts of incest victims:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Special:AllPages/Research:I
Posts: 8143

Or look under "I" in research data.

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IP LoggeditzmeEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #18 - on: 19.03.2009 at 17:29 [UT] »Quote from Bertha1 on 19.03.2009 at 17:17 [UT]:Thank you all of you for contributing to this delicate matter.
I am not going to post my mothers chart as it would offend some people here, but if you click on my name you will find my chart in otherposts. It will reveal that I have a Moon/Saturn/IC conj. Three of my siblings also have the Moon/Saturn conj and the two others haveafficted childhood issues also.
The main reason for mentioning that my brothers have brought it up, is that one of them is a police officer with a lot of experience withthe psycology concerning incest.
I am not really sure what I think of it myself, but no doubt my mother had problems with intimacy....and a weird relationship with mygrandfather.....

This is why, under another name (Debs) I said the following, because I intuited that the problems you felt you
had with this mother, were something you weren't aware of, which "made her" the way she was in life, so inthat thread where your chart appears I said this:Your mother as you mentioned, didn't have the greatest childhood herself, so she gave as she knew how or thebest she herself had to give. She didn't have a role model herself to be other then as she was. Having 6
children is not an easy life. She gave each child life, and for that alone,should have the respect of a humanbeing, giving life to another for the other to manifest the best their soul might have to give. She wasn't
looking for a prize as "best Mom of the year", but she certainly doesn't deserve hatred I'm sure. Neither were
her chldren so perfect then to cause aspersions towards her memory.
People in life can only give to others what they KNOW, to give, or what they've been taught, experienced andunderstand. They can't be what they are not ....They can try of course to overcome certain hang-ups certain
picadillios, but not everyone has the strength of mind or purpose to overcome, so it behooves any of us tothink ill of the other.
What comes to mind, is "Walk a mile in my shoes".......and putting ourselves into the shoes of another, theirlife their experiences then helps us to develop compassion and understanding for them.
My father wasn't the nicest person to come down the pike.......he did things to his two daughters that would
today, land him in jail, and on the "list of Molesters".
However, I had to come to terms with my inner anger and angst too, and I'm so glad I did this before hepassed over.
I wouldn't want to leave this earth feeling hatred (as I said) for anyone, because this emotion is so strong it
carries forward with you.
I knew my father had a seriously afflicted childhood himself, so he didn't know how nor was he interested infathering two daughters.
This in no way excuses what he did, it explains however, how "ill equipped " he was for such duties andresponsibility he took on by marrying and deciding to have children, if that even was a decision .....without
therapy on his part.
Can I then hate him, once I understand better? I don't think so.......the emotion is too destructive foreveryone.
As I said, I think Neptune I in the 4th along with N (for me), is one indicator, and the other is certainly the
J 2-8th House "Axis of Desire".
There was once a thread and charts posted on this forum, and this is a prevalant axis for child sexual abuse.

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IP LoggeditzmeEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #19 - on: 19.03.2009 at 18:36 [UT] »Quote from zippy on 19.03.2009 at 17:23 [UT]:
Astro Data Bank has some charts of incest victims:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Special:AllPages/Research:I
Or look under "I" in research data.

zippy: Thanks for referring us to this link as it helps to have many to compare and contrast, but from what I've

seen and determined in my short astrological life is that most people are far too married to one method to try
both. This then, confines & doesn't give us the necessary insight when we are.
However, try telling that toan Astrologer who is this narrow in their mindset...
Here is what I found however: In everyone, the 2-8th House Axis is primary as is the parental
4-10th House Axis. Both are very important.
The 2-8 is the Axis of Desire, the 4-10th the parental home1) to have a true definition of a Victim of Incest, we need to DEFINATELY check out both the Equal and theUnequal (Placidius) Charts, as many of these people were born in extreme Northern Latitiudes.
I first came across an Equal Hs. proponent, Gene Ray a member of this forum, who ONLY uses the Equal
Houses.
I do not, as a matter of course, I use the unequal primarily, HOWEVER, what I learned from Gene Ray is that
there are cases, when we really need to consider the Equal House Chart as well, and in these cases, in order to
get a REAL look at the INcest Victim, both must be contrasted, IMO.
2)
Thus far all have 12th House activity (I do not) Neptune, Uranus, Moon, Mars, Sun, etc.
ALL 7th to 1st House/DC to AC should be carefully studied in these charts to see Neptune in some instances,
Uanus in others, Moon, and the Nodes including Saturn (all undermining the Relationships vs the Selfhood
I do not have any 12th Hs.planets myself, however, I do have an afflicted D/C to AC cusp
By contrasting here is what I found:

Victim: 10856

4/10th Hs.Axis: J G both rx Leo 4th is Sun AQ.
2/8th Hs.Axis had the Nodes near Algol (Scorpio & Taurus) quite critical
I didn’t check the Equal Houses on this one.

Victim: 11379

EQUAL HOUSE CHART must be erected: (extreme Northern Latitude)
2-8th Axis highlighted! Pluto/Mars both in critical deg.cnj.”Dubhe” worse deg.of the zodiac
8th is Moon & POF 4/10th Hs.Axis (Sun,Mer & Neptune)in 4th undermining with the SN conj. Neptune
10th is the BML & NN, asteroid Lust nearby
Victim: 12763 EQUAL HOUSES:

MC “Evil Degree” 2/8th Hs.Axis Equal Cht. Mars & Lust in 2nd opposing Pluto & Vertex in 8th Leo
Victim: 44409: Redid EQUAL HOUSES _ puts Uranus & POF in 2nd Leo/opposed to 8th :Chiron & Lust

4th & 10th are the Nodes again, Juno, Mercury & Venus (again) Very critical AC Vertex in the “Evil Degree”
again.
Victim 7612: BOTH methods are Valid......but you see a different picture using each of them:Sun conj.fixed star “Hyades” hence critical; Jupiter near evil deg. 2nd=8th = BML vs Saturn; whereas the 3rd
hs.nearby has Neptune & Lust
In Equal hs.chart with MarsSame Victim with the Unequal Houses, gives a 4th-10th Mars vs the Moon instead of 3-9th Mars & Moon.
------------------------------------------------------------Victim: 8946

NOTE: the Nodes, Neptune & the Sun 4-10th…..with Neptune in Detriment the Sun in Fall , Venus in Detrimentwith all harsh aspects to Venus and it being in the very
Critical, “Definite Loss Degree” of Scorpio on top of all of this! She married an abuser as well.
Note: Very critical degree of Venus conj. the ASC. BML & Saturn conj. “Algol” and Vertex critical at 1Cancer –with Ceres 1Capricorn (both extremely critical degrees
BOTH 2-8 and 4-10 Houses are Active . Add BML to see the connection between, Uranus BML & Saturn in the
7th, all very critical near Algol-Alcoyne!

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vertexMember

Re: Incest« Reply #20 - on: 19.03.2009 at 18:47 [UT] »I was a victim of incest by an uncle for years. I have fears of physical and emotional intimacy to this day
because of it.
Can it be seen in my chart??
Posts: 5576
Gender:Note: In Koch, equal and whole signs house systems, Saturn moves into the 8th house.

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IP Logged*Abraxas*

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #21 - on: 19.03.2009 at 18:52 [UT] »Wow, Vertex-I was just going to post mine with "me" as the chart to expose my incest-my father with me. I
am not opposed to you looking at my data to use as research. I have only accepted and dealt with this in thelast 10 years-this happened as a teen where I blocked it-shame and guilt (very strong budding sexuality at thatage-my father and I have very strong sexual synastry and we had a very strong bond until he took advantage ofthis idealistic relationship at my tender sexual unfolding. Very strong sexual karma was set in tone due to this.
As you can see I have the classic signature-Sun o Pluto (5th and 8th house) (2nd and 8th house nodal axis)Neptune elevated. My father was a very abusive man to everyone in our family - I don't have much regard for
Posts: 6447
Gender:him-only pity. It certainly was the driving force to who I am now-although I have had many issues with men
due to this/exploitation/confused boundaries-I have grown immensely from this. I love my mother dearly
although felt somewhat that she couldn't/didn't protect me-this is a secret in my family- a burden I carry.
Everyone in my family seems to deny the abuse my father put out to each one of us-we all live with it like anelephant in the room at family gatherings-to the point where my father seems to think he did nothing wronghe has never had to take responsibility for any of his actions.

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itzme
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #22 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:12 [UT] »Thus far, ALL of the accumulated Incest Victims have a 12th house planet except my own as well as Inannas.
Not sure why this is yet......we'd need more data and more charts.
For me, Uranus is the closest to the cusp of the 12th House with a m to the NN.
For Vertex:
Algol conj.Moon & Mars would suggest importance in criticalness of chart. As would Venus conj. “Zosma” i.e.
Misfortune as it applied to Venus vibrations
Using Tad Mann’s method, the 8th being the pre-conception and inherited vibrations from this house, we see
woe involved with older male, (Saturn) and it’s square to(Jupiter)is potentially representing the uncle in the 5th Hs.of sexual affairs along with Chiron.
Both the Sun in Leo conj. Mercury and the Vertex are as well “worrisome”IMO.
There is also a Kite formation from Pluto to Neptune to the Sun & Pallas/Vesta. No wonder you still haveproblems with men and sex.
With the SN conj. “Ceres” from 12th to 6th; and Neptune undermining in the 12th square to Venus.and in
the house of secrets.
Both the 4th & 10th House Axis is also
A Signature along with the 2-8th Axis ……but the 4-10th is involved in the Kite.

................................................................................
..............................................
For Inanna: Proves the importance of checking the Equal House Chart once again!
Uranus & the Vertex are both near quite critical degrees in Leo. Whereas the Sun is also critical at 3GEM.
The expected (all of our charts)without exception, 2-8th Hs.Axis is in full swing here with the BML in the 8thin Leo Vertex, Uranus in Virgo are NN & Pluto all in the “Inheritance” House.
SN in 2nd conj. Chiron.
The expected 4/10th House Parental Axis: Venus, Ceres & Vesta in the 4th, and Venus is square Saturn(older Male)and in this case since we know it’s the father we see the SUN in
The critical degree in the 5th House of Sexual lust and affairs., the asteroid is here too.
The “Signature” Neptune in the EQUAL house chart, is in the 10th House, “undermining” from theparental view.
Eros is also here no surprise then.

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IP LoggeditzmeEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #23 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:18 [UT] »I think we will probably accumulate more data on this thread, as I'm sure there are many who suffer from thisdreadful malady here on the forum.
So far, the 2-8th Hs. Axis is a Signature
So far, the 4-10th Hs. Axis is as well as Neptune in most cases.
So far we see the necessity of checking the Equal House Charts when we do not recognize the Axis in theunequal Houses charts as active with plantetary bodies.
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IP Logged*Abraxas*
Member

Re: Incest« Reply #24 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:20 [UT] »Once Pluto hit my stressed Sun tsquare is when I started processing the past but didn't really startacknowledging, accepting and healing til transit Pluto hit my 12th house. With Jupiter ruling my 12th house,seems it pulls out the tsquare with Neptune/Mars/Jupiter which I thing epitomizes the sexual current-Neptune
scapegoat/exposure/exploitation and the hidden (big) secret-12th house ruler Jupiter.

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itzme

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #25 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:32 [UT] »Quote from _Inanna_ on 19.03.2009 at 20:20 [UT]:Once Pluto hit my stressed Sun tsquare is when I started processing the past but didn't really start acknowledging, accepting and healing
til transit Pluto hit my 12th house. With Jupiter ruling my 12th house, seems it pulls out the tsquare with Neptune/Mars/Jupiter which I
thing epitomizes the sexual current-Neptune scapegoat/exposure/exploitation and the hidden (big) secret-12th house ruler Jupiter.

Have you yet exposed the Secret?
I did at age 36 during what was to be a J breakdown in many ways. (emotional, spiritual and mentally) sp
many levels.
I'll need to check the planetary positions more closely however. I wasn't watching them thenas I was toobusy getting mental health therapy and falling apart.
But I did get the opportunity to "face down" my father, and with this, took away all psychological power he hadover me and my body.
I never again had the palpitations of the heartbeat which I suffered from for years in his presence, and I neveragain was at a loss for words around him.
I simply took back my own power this way.
It was very rewarding to do so. But I hated hurting my mother or others who suffered in silence and for the
rest of their lives.
That part was terrible, but to live both an authentic and honest life I had no other choice as I now can see bychecking my astrological positions:TR. Pluto conj. natal Chiron in the 4th. TR Saturn rx conj. natal Venus in the 5th (marriage suffered during
this time)tremendously almost broke up
Seen by TR Uranus conj. POF in the 5th.
My progressed Venus & the Moon(conjunct natal Mer & Mars in the 6th), then were both Sextile to Progressed
Ceres & Mercury in the 9th (truth)and outting.
Affecting my health and well being.
Tr Neptune was opposing TR Chiron (5th to 11th Hs.)
Pr. ASC was conj. natal Moon and very liberating.

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Todd Neimann
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Re: Incest« Reply #26 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:48 [UT] »hi vertex
incest is usually shown by ontu between pluto,saturn and chiron and their midpoints and the aspects to

DEA. F is indicative of uncles,grandparents,trusted family friends and people with authority over one.
in your chart , you have saturn square the chiron/jupiter conjunction,with jupiter indicating the uncle.in
addition you have the sun/pluto midpoint conjunct venus,with venus square the saturn/chiron andsaturn/jupiter midpoint.venus is also u to the chiron/jupiter conjunction.here neptune is square to venus,
indicating that alcohol was usually a component of the abusive experiences.in addition you have themars/chiron midpoint square your sun.
also the venus/pluto midpoint is square to your ascendant as well as marsu pluto.
todd
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Re: Incest« Reply #27 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:48 [UT] »Quote from itzme on 19.03.2009 at 20:32 [UT]:
Quote from _Inanna_ on 19.03.2009 at 20:20 [UT]:Once Pluto hit my stressed Sun tsquare is when I started processing the past but didn't really start acknowledging,
accepting and healing til transit Pluto hit my 12th house. With Jupiter ruling my 12th house, seems it pulls out the tsquarewith Neptune/Mars/Jupiter which I thing epitomizes the sexual current-Neptune scapegoat/exposure/exploitation and thehidden (big) secret-12th house ruler Jupiter.

Posts: 6447
Gender:Have you yet exposed the Secret?
I did at age 36 during what was to be a

J breakdown in many ways. (emotional, spiritual and mentally) sp many levels.

I'll need to check the planetary positions more closely however. I wasn't watching them thenas I was too busy getting mental healththerapy and falling apart.
But I did get the opportunity to "face down" my father, and with this, took away all psychological power he had over me and my body.
I never again had the palpitations of the heartbeat which I suffered from for years in his presence, and I never again was at a loss forwords around him.
I simply took back my own power this way.
It was very rewarding to do so. But I hated hurting my mother or others who suffered in silence and for the rest of their lives.
That part was terrible, but to live both an authentic and honest life I had no other choice.
TR. Pluto conj. natal Chiron in the 4th. TR Saturn rx conj. natal Venus in the 5th (marriage suffered during this time)tremendously almost
broke upSeen by TR Uranus conj. POF in the 5th.
My progressed Venus & the Moon(conjunct natal Mer & Mars in the 6th), then were both Sextile to Progressed Ceres & Mercury in the 9th(truth)and outting.
Affecting my health and well being.
Tr Neptune was opposing TR Chiron (5th to 11th Hs.)
Pr. ASC was conj. natal Moon and very liberating.

I have alluded to it and thought about this alot. I am afraid its coming and it may be explosive. At a family
dinner last year, he said something at the dinner table that had me ready to go over the edge. I told mymother that one day (in so many words) I am going to get that elephant out of the room. All of my otherfamily members have moved on with their lives/mostly just tolerate my father and his presence but yet seem tohave forgiven him? or fear him or pity? I left the family - moved away 20 years ago and am somewhat
estranged. So its a rather bitter pill as I left when most of the abuse with still pervasive. My mother was/is theclassic enabler. He beat her as well as mentally and emotionally tormented her, ridiculed my brother andcompletely abandoned my sister emotionally (used to tell her how ugly she was) -he became an alcoholic andpretty well dissolved into a useless existence after that. My mother takes care of him like a baby. I accepted
she stayed with him because of financial issues but somehow can't accept the train of mess it created for manyof our lives.
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itzme
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Re: Incest« Reply #28 - on: 19.03.2009 at 20:58 [UT] »WHEN and IF you decide to come clean with the history of his crime(s), it will have to be for you and your wellbeing, for the child within yourself, and NOT for either revenge, or hurt for another.
Not to get even, but to be honest and live an authentic life.
I forgave my mother easily, she was a wonderful human being, simply was a naive human being.
He tormented her too........Mom was a iA, but her downfall was her E l she was a sucker for a sob story
always from him and everyone.
My only regret however, is my mother's hurt .....She was never aware consciously.
However, I did stay with my family, and helped her to help my father as he died in a hospice.
I forgave him, even though he never asked for forgiveness....
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Todd Neimann

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Re: Incest« Reply #29 - on: 19.03.2009 at 21:11 [UT] »hi inanna
your chart starts with pluto opposed to chiron with venusu and t to this opposition.it is telling that themoo/uranus midpoint is conjunct pluto which would account for your mothers defense of your father.she likely
blocks out your abuse as this indicates that she herself has an abusive past which is repressed.
in addition your sun forms a Tsquare with the chiron/pluto opposition and the sun/chiron midpoint is conjunctvenus and the pluto/sun midpoint is square venus.the venus/chiron midpoint is opposed to the mars/neptune
midpoint and square mercury and square the jupiter/neptune midpoint.the mars/pluto midpoint is conjuncturanus and opposed tothe saturn/chiron midpoint and square the saturn/pluto midpoint.neptunes presence canalso indicate the presence of alcohol.
todd
todd
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Re: Incest« Reply #30 - on: 19.03.2009 at 21:12 [UT] »Quote from itzme on 19.03.2009 at 20:58 [UT]:
WHEN and IF you decide to come clean with the history of his crime(s), it will have to be for you and your well being, for the child withinyourself, and NOT for either revenge, or hurt for another.
Not to get even, but to be honest and live an authentic life.
I forgave my mother easily, she was a wonderful human being, simply was a naive human being.
He tormented her too........Mom was a

iA, but her downfall was her E l she was a sucker for a sob story always from him andeveryone.

Posts: 6447
Gender:My only regret however, is my mother's hurt .....She was never aware consciously.
However, I did stay with my family, and helped her to help my father as he died in a hospice.
I forgave him, even though he never asked for forgiveness....

I had regression therapy/hypnosis-I have strong karma with my parents-my parents composite -they have thisPicses signature all over my south node. Soon their progressions are pointing to some deep pain trigger-my
mother's progressed Venus 20 degree Aries is moving to o her natal Pluto (Cancer)my father's progressed Mars
20 degrees Aries is moving to o his Pluto (Cancer) degrees). Their natal Pluto squares my Venus. All this
impacts my Venus in Aries (Venus rules my home/4th house). My progressed Venus is moving to square my
Pluto. Alot is happening in my progressions to do with home in the next couple of years. I don't want to hurt
my mother either but I need peace within my soul (I have protected and supported my mother all my life-she
has to accept that responsibility has to be taken-not brush everything under the carpet and act like nothing
happened). The exposure would be all about truth and justice not revenge or hurt-authentic is the right word.
I have already taken my power back in my psyche but putting it back in his hands to carry is the right thing
to do-not just about me but everyone and what he did.
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Zen88

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #31 - on: 19.03.2009 at 22:13 [UT] »Thought it would be interesting to look at Joseph FRITZL's, the Austrian who committed incest with hisdaughter, chart.
His data:
Posts: 630

Born April 9, 1935
Birth Time: 12:00 PM (unknown)in Amstetten (Autriche)
Sun in 18°40 Aries, Moon in 4°16 Cancer
See chart at:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/celestar/portrait.php?clef=h3PwQ76xURc7&info=1
http://www.astrorevolution.com/index.php?itemid=235
http://www.astrodispatch.com/2009/03/19/josef-fritzl/

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ClairMember

Re: Incest« Reply #32 - on: 19.03.2009 at 23:53 [UT] »Wow. To everyone who is participating in such a positive way to this discussion and topic, thank you, because I
find it very beautiful and healing to witness such strength, honesty, healing, expression, and truth being
communicated and shared. People being open and receptive to sharing and contributing in so many ways isreally very wonderful to me... And to have astrology be such a significant part of this, a common ground, it
really is so interesting considering the nature of what is being discussed. I highly respect what is being
communicated here.
That being said, I verified my Mom's consent to share her chart as I mentioned earlier in the thread that she isa survivor of sexual abuse, physical, emotional, psychological, and verbal abuse from both parents. She has
utilized therapy and dreamwork as two important tools in her healing. She experienced the sexual abuse from a
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young age, I believe from around the 3-6 year old time frame. The other abuse continued over the years. She
is more than willing to share her chart and her story through my participation in the forum.
mom_natal_001.gif (attachment deleted)
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itzme

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #33 - on: 20.03.2009 at 02:05 [UT] »Your mother's chart is similar to my own, except I have G in my 1st House, and she has
O. I was the older of two daughters, and pretty much "raised my sister" and myself, and pretty much took careof my mother best I could.....so had a more serious and responsible role in this childhood then most would I
suppose. That's why Saturn is in the 1st.
You notice too that my Nodal Axis is from 11-5 . The 5th Hs has the South Node and in your mother's case I
think it's the 4th to 10th again. More common then mine when there was abuse.
I'm happy to hear your mother has been able to work through all the heartache....or most of it.
That's good to hear some good news now & then. The other planets she has in the 4th, that I do not have,may be because she was also verbally abused and physically as well.,and I was not.

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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #34 - on: 20.03.2009 at 02:42 [UT] »Quote from vertex on 19.03.2009 at 18:47 [UT]:
I was a victim of incest by an uncle for years. I have fears of physical and emotional intimacy to this day because of it.
Can it be seen in my chart??
Note: In Koch, equal and whole signs house systems, Saturn moves into the 8th house.
http://forum.astro.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/astro_2gw_01_me_ho.4228.22761.gif

Hi Vertex,
I have no experience at interpreting incest charts, only what has been commented on here and the example
charts referred to earlier. However I do notice in your chart the conjunction of Mars and Moon in Taurus anearth sign.
This combination fits well with your comment of "fears (mars) of physical (Taurus) and emotional (moon)
intimacy (Taurus)".
Pluto at the top of your chart is Sesquiquadrate to them from Libra, to Moon Mars in 5th house, a suggestionof stress from illicit or secretive union or relationship.
Of particular interest is the placing of Moon and Mars on the cusp of the Sixth house using Equal Houses. Thisis the Third house from the 4th, so represents a sibling of a parent (and most probably a sibling of yourfather). That of course is an uncle.
Saturn in detriment is also sextile Mars (in detriment) and Moon (exalted) from the Equal House 8th house.
The Moon is applying to a quincunx of Uranus in Libra, upset feelings.
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Re: Incest« Reply #35 - on: 20.03.2009 at 02:56 [UT] »There are a few more Victims of INcest on the astrodatabank:Case # 11565:
Pluto conj. AC conj. “Dubhe” at 15Leo (worse deg.of the zodiac) 2nd Hs. Saturn Juno,Mars opp. Moon &Jup in 8th
10th House of Family-Father? “Algol” Mercury/conj. Sun/BML & asteroid “Lust”4386. Conception House(9th) Venus conj.NN in Aries.
With Venus square Uranus, opp Neptune square Vertex. Neptune although in the 15th Degree (libra) stays inthe 3rd hs. Both unequal and Equal Hs.charts.
Curiously, Neptune carries a BiQ with both Sun & the Moon….creative Deception?
Case #11030:
2nd House G A n M in 8th!
Neptune conj.the I/C. Mars & POF 4th with Saturn & Sun (stepfather) in 2nd opposing BML in8th
Two planets in 12th(Venus,Ceres * Uranus)
Ceres square to Mars. Sun square Moon with Moon conj. “Algol” & square Saturn . Chiron in “Evil degree”
of Scorpio.,and Pluto in very critical 15 Leo
Conj. “Dubhe”
Eros conj. “Dubhe” Asteroid Lust in the 7th Hs. Rx.AQ. Saturn conj. “Regulus”

Case 44411:
Huge 8th Hs.Stellium with all these planets Pluto,MercurySun,vertex in Leo & then 29th deg.in Cancer Saturn
All opposing 2nd House Ceres & POF (very sad fate)……Vesta in 3rd as part of a Kite with BML in 12th conj.
“Antares”
Uranus & NN sit upon the D/C (no wonder) Again, we see the Nodes and Uranus as part of the AC/DC andconnected.
Parental Axis (4-10) Need to look to the Equal House Chart only:
Throw all of these planets from the 9th into the 10th!!!
Including: Venus,Mars,Moon,Neptune,Chiron,then Jupiter as part of a huge stellium (seems to me to bebetter read in the Equal House 10th) IMO
Making more sense for a sexual abuse victim ….with Neptune & Venus undermining with Mars the 10th Hs.

Case: 7757 (best using Placidius with this chart)because of Pluto the singleton.
Man controlled daughter from childhood until his death.
5ABORTIONS & 3 Miscarriages from father using her body for 26 years. Must use Placidius (unequal) to see
Pluto in the 4th Parental House
using Equal puts J into the 3rd.
2nd-8th Hs.Axis – Chiron in 2nd in Gemini,opposes Jupiter POF in 8th, Lust & NN in 9th.
AGAIN – Uranus near either the Ac or DC axis. In this case Uranus conj. the ASC. Mars & Vesta in the 12th
with Moon & Pallas in the 7th.
Pluto stands alone 25th degree of Leo (a critical degree for Alcoholism),father was an Alcoholic specificallymentioned in the Bio.

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Waybread
Member

Re: Incest« Reply #36 - on: 20.03.2009 at 04:53 [UT] »It is hard to add more to what has already been said, but just a few comments.
1. I don't know if anyone who shared here about incest, whether personally experienced or suspected or known
in a parent has worked constructively with Pluto transits, but they can be very empowering. A strong Plutotransit to one's sun or personal planet can be a good time to enter psychotherapy. A good time to clear out
one's emotional sub-basement.
2. Vertex, re: your uncle. Depending upon whether it was your mother's or father's brother (and to someastrologers, whether you had a day or night birth, and/or are male or female...jheesh!) one's uncle would be
Posts: 14740
Gender:represented by either the 12th house or the 6th. (In a derived house method, if we take your MC/10th houseas the parent in question, and then find the third house from it, which would be the 12th. The 3rd
house=siblings.) Does Neptune in your 12th ring a bell?
Vertex, you appear to have a "Thor's hammer" in your chart, with IoD, and both u your 4th house Jupiter.
3. An afflictedChiron in the 4th house of early childhood conditioning can indicate a painful childhood.
And again, a chart only suggests some kind of energy or dynamic in a chart, not that the older relative actually
acted it out, without some specific evidence or memory that it occurred. I think the courts have become
increasingly concerned about false memories; and one can only imagine that a horoscope would beinadmissable as "hard" evidence.

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itzme

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #37 - on: 20.03.2009 at 05:34 [UT] »Case 9584:
BML conj. “Regulus”conj. JUP in father’s house 10th along with PLUTO conj. NN in Leo. 4th House Sun singleton
14AQ. Conj.SN!
8th House Stellium (pre-conception) including Moon,Sat.POF,Mars (Uranus & Vesta within minutes)Vertex in7th. 5th Hs. Asteroid Lust
3rd Hs.Venus in critical star “Facies” 8°, Eros conj.Merc. & the D/C Cusp all in Capricorn/ Neptune in 12th in
Libra.

Case 11377:
Very critical 8th House by degree (Dubhe) fixed star worse deg.of the zodiac i.e. Mars & Pluto here very strong
in this intercepted sign
Sharing the 8th House is the Ruler of the 8th Cancer with Vertex opposing 2nd House Jupiter & Eros in
Capricorn.
Her parental Axis is terrible too – 4th House NN & BML with 10th House Neptune conj. SN –Sun,Mer.Pallas
there.
Chiron conj. the ASC. In 12th Hs.

Poor Girl had Venus square Mars and Venus square Pluto….5th House (Lesbian affair) POF 2 deg.TAU conj.
“Mirach” squaring Vertex & Eros. I've always noticed that Mirach in the Natal 0-2TAU, seems to be the opposite
of a harmonious marriage.,although the sites say it's harmonious I haven't seen that to be true,(quite theopposite usually)
D/C cusp ruler is dual sign , - Gemini.
(Uranus square Neptune & Mercury) when she was institutionalized her Uranus aspects “Registered” at age 3235 Lesbian affair started after hospitalized in 1981-82
Case #44413:
Sun/Moon conj.in AQ near Eros.7th Hs. Opposed to Juno on the ASC.

USE EQUAL HS.CHART TO SEE

THE ABUSE CLEARER!
2-8th Hs.Axis: 2nd Hs. Pluto & Uranus opposite BML, Saturn & Chiron with Venus
4-10th Hs. Parental Axis: The planet Neptune AGAIN, conj. “Vesta” in Scorpio with NN opp the SN in 10th.
Interesting Kite formation with Pluto & Uranus at the Apex in 2nd (Equal House Chart) Jup.POF in
12th,Neptune in 4th, then Saturn & Chiron in 8th.

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ClairMember

Re: Incest« Reply #38 - on: 20.03.2009 at 13:09 [UT] »Quote from itzme on 20.03.2009 at 02:05 [UT]:G in my 1st House, and she has
O. I was the older of two daughters, and pretty much "raised my sister" and myself, and pretty much took care of my mother best I
Your mother's chart is similar to my own, except I have

could.....so had a more serious and responsible role in this childhood then most would I suppose. That's why Saturn is in the 1st.
You notice too that my Nodal Axis is from 11-5 . The 5th Hs has the South Node and in your mother's case I think it's the 4th to 10th
again. More common then mine when there was abuse.
I'm happy to hear your mother has been able to work through all the heartache....or most of it.
That's good to hear some good news now & then. The other planets she has in the 4th, that I do not have, may be because she was also
verbally abused and physically as well.,and I was not.

Posts: 728
Gender:Yeah.. wow.. look at the similarities between your chart and my Mom's. I understand the Saturn in the firsthouse stuff as I have mine placed there as well. My Mom was a middle child (there were 5 children in all) andI'm not so sure anyone really stepped up to be a caretaker figure or someone who would look after the others.
Interesting.
That Neptune in the fourth house can definitely sometimes prove to be tricky. My Mom lived near water, in agarage (much of the time) with her siblings, while her parents lived in their house. The way my Mom explainsit, there is a lot of dissilusionment when it comes to her parents, and piecing together her past, and sometimes
it's hard to sort through the fog. This is why her dreams and therapy have played such a key role in her
recovery and healing.
I have so much respect for you, my mom, and others who take charge of their own healing and really transformthemselves and their lives... especially after having gone through such trauma during the childhood years.
Thank you for sharing your chart. I really do find it interesting the similarities between both of the charts.
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Re: Incest« Reply #39 - on: 20.03.2009 at 16:53 [UT] »Your welcome Clair.

Perhaps that is why she can graciously move this energy towards healing herself.
I've been a dream interpreter all my life.
I use to interpret my parents dreams, especially my mother's who would share them freely and ask for help
when stumped.
I think dreams are a gift to us, that we can recall them when we do.
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MaryA
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #40 - on: 20.03.2009 at 17:12 [UT] »Quote from Callie on 19.03.2009 at 09:45 [UT]:Bertha IF your mom was a victim - you cannot now know for sure and you sully her name & memory with speculation. She chose her
reaction. yes it is an individual's decision what to do and how to carry that burden and pain. I don't think speaking about it does anything.
I take my hat off to the Austrian mother for having the courage to face her father in the courtroom. She did what was necessary andfound the courage to do it with but it's not for us to go digging even into her chart 'to see what it had'. Somethings just should remain
private to the individual to deal with. And I do honour their decisions.
And no - I wouldn't teach any pointers online either. It's just too damaging information to give out willy nilly to all and sundry who read.
That I would say is irresponsible.
Anyway - it as I said - it is my personal opinion. I will leave you to yours.

Her mother's name would not be "sullied" or disgraced in any way. She would be recognized for what she
was...a victim. If anyone should carry shame for such activities it is the perpetrator.
My .02
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Re: Incest« Reply #41 - on: 20.03.2009 at 17:21 [UT] »Quote from vertex on 19.03.2009 at 18:47 [UT]:
I was a victim of incest by an uncle for years. I have fears of physical and emotional intimacy to this day because of it.
Can it be seen in my chart??
Note: In Koch, equal and whole signs house systems, Saturn moves into the 8th house.
http://forum.astro.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/astro_2gw_01_me_ho.4228.22761.gif

Posts: 6447
Gender:VertexI suffered with blocks in physical and emotional intimacy as well and actually only 10 years ago was I able tobreak through. One relationship my ex used to say I was frigid, the next said I was not emotionally available.
I actually (this is really personal) couldn't orgasm until 10 years ago. I never masturbated-I couldn't connect
the dots so to speakpast.

only funny now. Once I did was when I was able to release the blockage-open up the

I see in your tsquare with Saturn/Jupiter Chiron (4th)/Uranus-that shows some trauma in the home-family.
Certainly the Sun Mercury in the 8th-Moon Mars in the 5th with the nodal signature.
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vertexMember

Re: Incest« Reply #42 - on: 20.03.2009 at 17:27 [UT] »Inanna,I'm 33 years old and I'm still blocked. I don't know how I will get over it.

Posts: 5576
Gender:Thank you Itzme, Todd Neimman, SunSagMoonLib and Waybread for all looking in my chart. I had no idea, myincest experience could be read in my chart!! Oh, by the way, it was my mother's brother who did this to me,
so would he be the 6th or the 12th?
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Rainbow Seeker

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #43 - on: 20.03.2009 at 17:32 [UT] »3rd house. The house of immediate relatives.

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Re: Incest« Reply #44 - on: 20.03.2009 at 17:42 [UT] »Quote from Todd Neimann on 19.03.2009 at 21:11 [UT]:
hi inannau andt to this opposition.it is telling that the moo/uranus midpoint is conjunctyour chart starts with pluto opposed to chiron with venus

pluto which would account for your mothers defense of your father.she likely blocks out your abuse as this indicates that she herself has an
abusive past which is repressed.
in addition your sun forms a Tsquare with the chiron/pluto opposition and the sun/chiron midpoint is conjunct venus and the pluto/sun
midpoint is square venus.the venus/chiron midpoint is opposed to the mars/neptune midpoint and square mercury and square thejupiter/neptune midpoint.the mars/pluto midpoint is conjunct uranus and opposed tothe saturn/chiron midpoint and square the saturn/pluto

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Gender:midpoint.neptunes presence can also indicate the presence of alcohol.
todd
todd

Yes, I see I have many many midpoints-and t , u to Venus-I think this is why this was such an insidious hidden(even to myself) reality that I didn't see clear til recently. It needed me leaving-moving 2000 miles away to cut
the chords. I suspect strongly my mother was sexually abused by someone in her family too which she blocked
completely. She has uncanny ability to repress-she is a Pisces and its like she is in another fantasy world. In a
way I envy her as she seems to go on with her life happy and carefree despite all the abuse around her but theni get angry too as she is almost neglecting the reality around the damage it caused.
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itzme

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #45 - on: 20.03.2009 at 17:59 [UT] »Zen: you posted links for Josef Fritzel......
Here is the natal chart for the victim of his long standing abuse, his daughter who bore him at least
7 children:
It's an unusual chart I think because of all those 12th house "Hidden planets" the House of Imprisonment
becomes literal for her . She has the same Sun sign as her father (his is very critical at 1Aries) I noticed she too
has many critical degrees, not the least of which is Neptune in the "Definite Loss" 21Scorpio.,then there is that Mirach at 1TAU, which I always see as I said before,the opposite as the sites tell us, as an"Inharmonious marriage" the sites always suggest harmony in marriage.,but I've seen the exact opposite in mystudies.
Josef Fritzel Fathered at least 7 or more of his own grandchildren all locked away in the basement,
Never seeing the light of day for 24 years. His natal:
Has Chiron Conjunct “Hades” 6 GEM
Venus is conj. Algol 21TAU
Uranus conj. Weeping Sisters 0 GEM
Aries Sun 18 degrees
Mercury at very critical 1 deg.ARIES
Using the Tad Mann method, it appears that at her age in 2008, near 42, her B Registers,
and we seeing Tr. I over her Moon in the 7th, near the 21st deg.of Scorpio (the jig's up) as they say. And the
bubble of confusion, secrets and Neptune's symbology in the loss degree, suggests the light of day for achange.

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*Abraxas*
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Re: Incest« Reply #46 - on: 20.03.2009 at 18:12 [UT] »Quote from vertex on 20.03.2009 at 17:27 [UT]:Inanna,I'm 33 years old and I'm still blocked. I don't know how I will get over it.

Thank you Itzme, Todd Neimman, SunSagMoonLib and Waybread for all looking in my chart. I had no idea, my incest experience could be

Posts: 6447

read in my chart!! Oh, by the way, it was my mother's brother who did this to me, so would he be the 6th or the 12th?

Gender:Your Moon in the 5th house is on your south node-Moon is intercepted in your 7th house of relationships/thiscan show this emotional block (my Moon is intercepted in the 8th house). Does anyone in your family (yourMother) know about the incest?
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ClairMember

Re: Incest« Reply #47 - on: 20.03.2009 at 19:30 [UT] »Quote from itzme on 20.03.2009 at 16:53 [UT]:Your welcome Clair.

Perhaps that is why she can graciously move this energy towards healing herself.
I've been a dream interpreter all my life.
I use to interpret my parents dreams, especially my mother's who would share them freely and ask for help when stumped.
I think dreams are a gift to us, that we can recall them when we do.

Posts: 728
Gender:I know my Mom would definitely correlate her dreams and her dream work she has done with the leaps andstrides she has made in her healing over the past 5-6 years or so.
It's interesting that you would interpret your parent's dreams, especially your mother's when she was stumped.
My Mom and I do the same with each other. I practice dream interpretation ever since she introduced it to me
more in depth several years ago and now we can really make some great progress with dreams by helping eachother out.
I agree that dreams are gifts to us and that our dreaming experience is just as important as our experience inwaking life. As within, so without (oh on so many levels!).
Over your years as a dream interpreter, I can imagine you've experienced many wonderful and beautiful things
about yourself and other people.. and just the art of dream interpretation in general.
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Todd Neimann
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #48 - on: 20.03.2009 at 19:37 [UT] »hi clairlooking at your mom's chart the first aspect that sticks out is the pluto/chiron midpoint conjunct the sun withthe saturn/neptune and saturn/mars midpoints also here.this shows the physical and sexual abuse.
the mercury square to pluto can indicate that the abuse started at a early age and themercury/pluto,saturn/pluto midpoints and jupiter are square to the venus/chiron midpoint.these are also
abusive aspects wwith the inclusion of jupiter indicating a systematic abuse.the mars/chiron midpoint isconjunct to the venus/saturn midpoint and these are square to the mars/uranus,moon/jupiter and jupiter pluto
midpoints.these are physical and sexual abusive aspects and the inclusion of jupiter/moon shows the emotional
abuse. the moon/pluto midpoint square the mercury/sun midpoint indictaes the mothers and fathers role in theabuse.the mars/neptune conjunction adds a sadiastic nature to all the mars midpoints and the uranus opposed
to chiron bring extreme physical abuse into the picture.
todd
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ClairMember

Re: Incest« Reply #49 - on: 20.03.2009 at 20:12 [UT] »Quote from Todd Neimann on 20.03.2009 at 19:37 [UT]:
hi clairlooking at your mom's chart the first aspect that stickes out is the pluto/chiron midpoint conjuctr the sun with tyhe saturn/neptune andsaturn/mars midpoints also here.this shows the physical and sexual abuse.
the mercury square to pluto can indicate that the abuse started at a early age and the mercury/pluto,saturn/pluto midpoints and jupiterare square to the venus/chiron midpoint.these are also abusive aspects wwith the inclusion of jupiter indicating a systematic abuse.themars/chiron midpoint is conjunct to the venus/saturn midpoint and these are square to the mars/uranus,moon/jupiter and jupiter pluto
midpoints.these are physical and sexual abusive aspects and the inclusion of jupiter/moon shows the emotional abuse. the moon/pluto
midpoint square the mercury/sun midpoint indictaes the mothers and fathers role in the abuse.the mars/neptune conjunction adds asadiastic nature to all the mars midpoints and the uranus opposed to chiron bring extreme physical abuse into the picture.
todd

Posts: 728
Gender:

Hi ToddThank you so much for your insight and shared information on my Mom's chart! I know she will be interested
to learn about these new discoveries. I had yet to think of looking to the midpoints in her chart, as I have justbeen learning about the midpoints in my own. I appreciate the time you took to make those connections. I
think for someone like my Mom who has done a lot of her healing through her dreamwork, sometimes having
solid information to validate what she knows to be her experiences really truly helps. It's like she can learn andheal through the information retrieved during her sleep, but it sure adds to a certain confirmation when you
receive similar information through another source/means. I know she will benefit through your response, and I
am too as I am learning more about midpoints and this topic in general.
Thank you again
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vertexMember

Re: Incest« Reply #50 - on: 20.03.2009 at 20:34 [UT] »Quote from _Inanna_ on 20.03.2009 at 18:12 [UT]:
Quote from vertex on 20.03.2009 at 17:27 [UT]:Inanna,I'm 33 years old and I'm still blocked. I don't know how I will get over it.

Posts: 5576
Gender:Thank you Itzme, Todd Neimman, SunSagMoonLib and Waybread for all looking in my chart. I had no idea, my incest
experience could be read in my chart!! Oh, by the way, it was my mother's brother who did this to me, so would he be the
6th or the 12th?

Your Moon in the 5th house is on your south node-Moon is intercepted in your 7th house of relationships/this can show this emotional block(my Moon is intercepted in the 8th house). Does anyone in your family (your Mother) know about the incest?

I do not think anyone knows in my family. Even if they did, they would sweep it under the carpet and act likenothing happened.
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #51 - on: 21.03.2009 at 00:01 [UT] »Quote from vertex on 20.03.2009 at 17:27 [UT]:
Oh, by the way, it was my mother's brother who did this to me, so would he be the 6th or the 12th?

That would depend on which house more clearly shows your mother, 4th or 10th. Your mother's brotherwould be represented by the 3rd house from that being the siblings of your mother. (Was your mother a
Virgo -sign on zenith - or Libra - MC sign? Or was she a Pisces - the sign on nadir- or Aries - the IC sign?
That may give a clue, although often the houses are ambiguous and show both parents for instance yourmother's characteristics as seen from your point of view may also be indicated by Uranus or Jupiter or even
Pluto or Venus being the planets in those signs, as well as the Moon).
3rd house generally shows brothers and sisters, or people who are part of your day to day environment. The
9th house I believe can show your in-laws and relatives through marriage, perhaps others can give their viewson this.
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Re: Incest« Reply #52 - on: 21.03.2009 at 02:27 [UT] »Quote from Rainbow Seeker on 20.03.2009 at 17:32 [UT]:
3rd house. The house of immediate relatives.

The third house governs siblings. One's parents are shown by:
1) father: the sun in a day birth, Saturn in a night birth.
2.) mother: the moon. (Some say Venus in a day birth.)
Posts: 14740
Gender:3.) The MC/IC axis. This gets really complicated. Some astrologers argue that the moon actually is not thenatural ruler of the 4th, nor Saturn of the 10th so far as parents go; but that in looking for parents via the
MC/IC axis, this position is reversed. Then some astrologers think it matters whether you are a man or awoman; or had a day birth or a night birth. It gets tricky.
Since vertex is a woman born during daylight hours, this would reinforce using the 10th for her mother. The
4th apparently applies to women with night births. Given that Thor's Hammer in vertex's chart involving her
12th house Neptune pointing to Jupiter in the 4th house of early childhood conditioning, I thought her uncle
should be a derived house from the 10th. Jupiter rules vertex's 12th house, and Venus (female sexuality, justpossibly Mom in a day-birth) are all part of this configuration. One wonders what vertex's mother was up to,here.
4. To locate aunts and uncles in the chart, one can use a derived house method. To go back to the 3rd house
representing siblings, an uncle is a parent's siblings. So if we take vertex's MC to represent her mother,starting with the 10th house, we count 3 houses to find her mother's brother. Any planet in that house, or theruler ("lord") of the sign on the cusp of that house should say something about one's uncle on one's mother's
side.
Astrology actually divides family members very finely, depending upon the relationship. Beyond one's parents
and siblings, this usually goes by a derived (or derivative house) method. Purists actually have a different
calculus for one's children/siblings, depending upon their birth order!
An easy way to find these without counting houses is Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book published by theAmerican Federation of Astrologers.
Again, a chart alone isn't going to prove that incest occured. Merely that such an energy was "in the space"between family members.

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Saratx31

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #53 - on: 06.05.2009 at 07:21 [UT+1] »Here is my chart..I was molested by 2 uncles and my brother.. I am over it now..

Posts: 106
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Gnostic
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #54 - on: 06.05.2009 at 14:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Bertha1 on 18.03.2009 at 21:58 [UT]:I recently lost my mother, and it brought up a lot of feelings to deal with.
From my earlier posts it is pretty obvious, that I am going through a hard time, as my relationship with my mother was non-existing.
Tonight my brothers told me, they have been suspecting, that my mother was molested when she was a child by my grandfather. I am inchok to hear this, and since there are no one to ask, I was wondering if a chart can tell?

You don't happen to be a offspring of that union? Did your mother like the relationship or do she suffer? If she
suffers I'm very sorry on her behalf and to bother you with this reply.
It seems like tragic events are located to victims MC sign but it don't have to be so if the other persons G
weren't at m to your ASC or A or E o B. The difference is that G persons of those victims like to suffocate,dominate by manipulation, force sexually and posses the victim toward her/his own will while the E persons
act more casually with rape mostly by foreigners without any longterm interests at all.
But don't forget that there are good unions between relatives as well which are nurturing, fidel and protective
to a healthy extend. Those are found amongst animals like bonopos etc. What Mother Nature intended as goodshould no man change to the negative ever. All trouble begins when you try to change, sometimes even byforce things as they are meant to be.

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BonitaEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #55 - on: 06.05.2009 at 14:25 [UT+1] »Hi,
Here is Natal Chart from Lord Byron. I have read his Biography: he was in love with his half-sister. He had evenchild with her.
Natal Chart:

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BonitaEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #56 - on: 06.05.2009 at 14:28 [UT+1] »It was discussion (in one Forum) that ruler of his 3rd in 8th house is and that is the sign for incest with sisteror brother.

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primitribe

Member

Re: Incest« Reply #57 - on: 06.05.2009 at 17:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Bonita on 06.05.2009 at 14:28 [UT+1]:
It was discussion (in one Forum) that ruler of his 3rd in 8th house is and that is the sign for incest with sister or brother.

... I have a chart of a man whose mother and older sister attempted it on him individually, until he felt/realized
it was wrong and pushed them away. He doesn't tell much into detail so I do not know how far they went (norwon't dare ask).
Posts: 639
Gender:His 3rd house cusp is d, and his

B in 8th.

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Incest« Reply #58 - on: 06.05.2009 at 17:26 [UT+1] »Bertha, I don't know if you were around here last year. I created a thread on this very subject. It got long,intense, and very painful, but it was highly cathartic for many who were brave enough to post. I don't know if
it's still around. I have to mention that this subject has the potential to bring out the absolute worst in people
responding at times. It is a very emotionally-laden subject. It upsets people, and they don't handle theiremotions well about this. It causes revulsion in most uneducated, unenlightened people, who blame the victim
in one way or another.
I have empathy for all who feel that way, because I can understand how frightening this must be forthem, but they must remember not to judge people who have been seriously misused and abused,
usually by someone the victim knows far too intimately.
Anyway, you asked about indicators in the chart: the group consensus on the thread I started seemed to bethat afflictions to the B, especially from G, were often the place to start. J, of course, is involved. Essentially,
to be raised in the kind of environment that promotes abuse, there have to be a constellation of otherbehaviors, one of which would be deception, so look to afflictions to I. The perpetrator usually has E in
aspect to G; men and women who have been sexually abused by their mothers usually have a B/J contact.
(Please note: this will not always be true; it's not a constant, it's not a given, and if you have a B/ J
contact and have no recollection of abuse, please do not now go around thinking, oh, god, I wasabused and I just can't remember.) When analysing these charts, we start with the person's recollections
and memories and only then look at the chart.
If your mother experienced this, the primary reason she would never have mentioned it is shame, pure andsimple. It's the one reason perpetrators are not caught and charged for their crimes of abuse. The victim feels
too much shame, and doesn't want the perpetrator to get in trouble. The victim protects their abuser,
unfortunately.
good luck with finding out more about your mother, and hopefully you will also find peace.

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danielMember

Re: Incest« Reply #59 - on: 06.05.2009 at 17:58 [UT+1] »Bertha,My heart goes out to you. I also had a terrible relationship with mymom and dad, but esp my mom, and like your mom, she is not aroundto ask.
I am at peace with what happened and the scars are just about gone.
Here is an article i found to be of value and it got me thinking about
the bigger perspective.
Posts: 1952
Gender:with love, danielp.s. follow your own heart in this matter, as syz said, the topic is rather polarizing,by the same token, use as much empathy as you can, as there are those whowill not, or can not tell you why they have such energy about the subject.
http://www.aquariuspapers.com/astrology/2009/04/thoughts-on-our-soul-group-and-f orgivingabusive-people---pt-1.html

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Re: Incest

Eugene R.
Blimster« Reply #60 - on: 06.05.2009 at 19:43 [UT+1] »Ex Member

Hello Bonita and world.
I have no idea who the Lord Byron was, and i don't want to, but i will believe that someone with such a"beautifull" nick, would not invent someone. Not that people with ugly nicks invent anyone... well... maybe
some...
But, i will try to explain that gentleman's fixation in her sister.
3rd house rules her sister. The cusp in in leo, so the ruler, the sun, is in 2ºaqu, in house 8. This is the firstindication, her "sister" in his 8th house, of sexual atraction and obssession. But this is nothing.
part of perversion Asc- Ura + Ven = 4ºcan - 28ºcan + 25ºaqu = 1ºaqu
We go into his chart, and we see it conjuncts his sun. His sun that represents his sister. His perversion was his
sister.
Midpoint between mercury and pluto, this midpoint shows obssession. Lets find it, it's in 1aqu\leo. This means
his sun is in the midpoint that represents obssession.
So, with this together we have, "He was obssessed (mercury pluto midpoint), with her sister (sun), in aperverted way (sun conjuncts part of perversion)". In an easier way, "He was obssessed with making sex withher sister". And apparently there was a child to prove it.
Other indications:part of sibblings Asc - Sat + Jup = 4ºcan -27ºaqu + 17º gem = 24ºlib
It conjuncts his Neptune, represent the illusion with brothers.
Moon(feelings) conjuncts Uranus (strange), opposes mercury ( irrational) and quadrature neptune (i can say
perversion here, bad illusions). He had strange feelings, didn't think about them, acting irrationally, and wereperverted ones.
This is even worse because mercury and neptune don't rule nothing in his chart, acting just as themselves. And
uranus rules 8th house...

And that is it, it is that and...that's it.
A maternal hug for you... oh forget the maternal... wrong thread for that.

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Bonita

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #61 - on: 07.05.2009 at 07:11 [UT+1] »Hi Eugene,
Only you know what means my »nick«.
About Lord Byron: he was one of the greatest lovers in the history and he was Lord from England.
The other great lover was Giacomo Casanova (from Venice). I have read both biographies.
Giacomo Casanova was on the way to do incest as well, but didn't. He wanted to marry his own daughter,without to know that she is his daughter.
It happened, when he was about 40 years old. He met ex-lover from his young years. She had beautiful
daughter. Casanova taught that the girl was daughter from her husband. Just before asking the girl to marryhim, her mother told him the truth: the girl was his own daughter.
There are also stories where sister and brother by birth were adopted by other people. Later they met eachother and have got married.
Bonitap.s. Here I must tell: you are excellent about explaining the incest story.
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Gnostic
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #62 - on: 07.05.2009 at 15:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Bonita on 06.05.2009 at 14:28 [UT+1]:
It was discussion (in one Forum) that ruler of his 3rd in 8th house is and that is the sign for incest with sister or brother.

Thank you for this information and for your chart of Lord Byron! Like allways there are exceptions and it seems
like d and b ASC, A or B persons are real mama's boys/daddy's girls, especially b. Even if not they canbe very close with their other family members siblings or cousins. I don't have any planets at 3rd or 8th but the
3rd stands for d while the 8th is shared by i and j signs whatever that means.
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itzme

Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #63 - on: 07.05.2009 at 18:07 [UT+1] »Eugene Blimster:Great stuff! (the Arabic lots) and our charts.

For the record on this thread, re:Cancer Rising or the Moon dboth of which I have and my husband has (with me it's rising, with him the Moon)
I was never a papa's girl - as he would have raped me had he had half a chance, as well as my Cancer Sun sister
This sister consequently had little to do with either parent during their lives.
As for Cancer Moon (my husband): He is not a mama's boy, as he was born on October 8th, and his
mother born on October 7th. He was never all that close to his mother, BUT, he is a very respectful person offamilies, mothers & fathers both; and calls his mother once a week now that she isa widow of many years, and is very up in age (94 this coming October)
But I certainly cannot see where in 37 years of marriage he ever would be a mama's boy for sure.
He was however best friends with my mother (his mother in law) and took her death hard.
This was always a bone of contention for his mother. Perhaps she was a tad bit jealous of this attachment he
had to his mother in law.
I do know one who comes to mind. My daughter (Taurus Moon) who is not a mama or papa's girlbut she does love her father very much and is a wonderful daughter overall to us both. jABb . But I also
realize that IF we were rude or hateful towards her B.F. we'd not see much of her either.hAC. So we are mildly
accepting of the fate and her choices.
Afterall, she is an adult.
Her boyfriend is Cancer ASC. Bc Ag .....and YES, he IS a mama's boy. He is also a very needy person and
one who takes advantage as well like his mother did, IMO.
in many other ways. Must be his c B
His
mom was a scam artist along with her husband.
But it matters not to the boy. He adores his mother and takes up for her all the time.,even in the face ofevidence that she was not the nicest human being on the planet. Matters not , he is still a "mama's boy" forsure.
The youngest of 4.
I think what this all says, is we can never generalize about people or charts. Too iffy!
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Selena
Ex Member

Re: Incest« Reply #64 - on: 07.05.2009 at 19:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Bonita on 07.05.2009 at 07:11 [UT+1]:
Hi Eugene,
Only you know what means my »nick«.
About Lord Byron: he was one of the greatest lovers in the history and he was Lord from England.
The other great lover was Giacomo Casanova (from Venice). I have read both biographies.
Giacomo Casanova was on the way to do incest as well, but didn't. He wanted to marry his own daughter, without to know that she is his
daughter.
It happened, when he was about 40 years old. He met ex-lover from his young years. She had beautiful daughter. Casanova taught thatthe girl was daughter from her husband. Just before asking the girl to marry him, her mother told him the truth: the girl was his own
daughter.
There are also stories where sister and brother by birth were adopted by other people. Later they met each other and have got married.
Bonitap.s. Here I must tell: you are excellent about explaining the incest story.

I am sure, Sir Eugene is excellent about explaining other stories as well....
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