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The Structure of Your Chart (Read 2614 times)

beyond the stars
MemberThe Structure of Your Chart« on: 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT] »There are quite a few possible shapes your chart can take (I'm not talking about aspect patterns, but the Splayor Splash chart, the Bucket, Bundle, See-Saw, Locomotive, etc.). Do you believe your chart's structure actually
represents your reality? In other words, if you had to characterize yourself, would the shape of your chart help
describe you, or do you feel like you and your chart's shape bear no resemblance to each other?
Here is an online article that sums up this idea, and if you want to post your chart, I think that would be very
helpful for the purposes of illustrating the shape itself.
Posts: 1005

http://www.astrotheme.com/files/planetary-patterns.php
If you do not believe in the idea or concept of the chart having a shape, or that it would matter one way or theother, be sure to say so. This idea has only become 'popular' fairly recently (in the past 30 years or so), andwhile it's very interesting, it might not translate to what you think is true for you or for astrology in general.

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Frank

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #1 - on: 09.01.2012 at 11:42 [UT] »I have either a bucket or bundle chart - I just know it's fairly 'concentrated' and yeah the common
interpretations of it do seem to be pretty accurate.

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zippyMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #2 - on: 09.01.2012 at 15:37 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT]:There are quite a few possible shapes your chart can take (I'm not talking about aspect patterns, but the Splay or Splash chart, theBucket, Bundle, See-Saw, Locomotive, etc.). Do you believe your chart's structure actually represents your reality? In other words, if you
had to characterize yourself, would the shape of your chart help describe you, or do you feel like you and your chart's shape bear noresemblance to each other?

Posts: 8143

I'm a pretty strong believer in chart shapes. It's generally the first thing I look at although I'm not sure I
agree with the article's interpretation of each shape. For example, the Splash it says "It heralds a potential forvaried centres of interest. The native can shift from one field to another with flexibility and relevance, with thecapacity to land on his feet in any given situation. It is as if this pattern inferred a " Mercury dominant " effectsince Mercury is well-known for being a real chameleon."
I don't see the spash as Mercury dominant, never heard that one before. True of flexibility but often is marked
by being a bit scatter-brained. Not dumb, but scattering their energy in many directions at once.
I like Celeste Teals take on chart shapes:
http://moonvalleyastrologer.com/tutorial2.htm#Chart%20Pattern%20Types
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Akvelina Ostergaard

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #3 - on: 09.01.2012 at 16:18 [UT] »I don't use these particular general shapes of charts. I use T-square, Grand Cross, Grand Trine, Kite, Mystic
Rectangle, and Yod instead. My chart is a "Bucket" but I do have a Yod that does the same exact thing - itfocuses the energy of the apex planet.
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Nixx1234
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #4 - on: 09.01.2012 at 17:20 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT]:
If you do not believe in the idea or concept of the chart having a shape, or that it would matter one way or the other, be sure to say so.
This idea has only become 'popular' fairly recently (in the past 30 years or so), and while it's very interesting, it might not translate towhat you think is true for you or for astrology in general.

I would say these Jones Patterns have become less 'popular' in the last 30 years or so?
I have a see saw and think about oppostions a lot. It may be the idea of the 'shape' focuses my mind more on
the importance of these dynamics. I found Jones ideas about them, and some others, a bit fuzzy for my mind.
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beyond the stars

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #5 - on: 09.01.2012 at 23:48 [UT] »I first read about these patterns in the chart via John Townley; I really do wish Marc Edmund Jones' name was
not associated with them, because of the Sabian-symbol association. There are so many other analyses of theindividual degrees, which predated Jones by centuries, and yet you'd never know it, since the only system you
seem to hear about nowadays is his. But I digress.
Here are a few other links to illustrate these patterns in the chart:
http://www.astrococktail.com/planetaryorderIII.html
Posts: 1005

andhttp://claytentylor.com/astronotes12.html
So many bucket charts; apparently, that's the most common? Mine is also a bucket.

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Linda Harris
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #6 - on: 10.01.2012 at 00:13 [UT] »Although I do not include chart patterns in my readings for others, (as time does not permit), I have foundthat I definitely identify with my bundle chart. All my planets are contained in the 7 th house thru the cusp of
the 11th...and just under an exact trine from the planet in the 7th to the one on the 11th cusp.

Posts: 17033

I have no oppositions, no intercepted signs, no retrogrades. I feel I have a very karmic chart (in fact, theasteroid "karma" falls within minutes of my MC.) In a way this consoles me when I feel "life isn't fair." I guess it
is what it is supposed to be.
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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #7 - on: 10.01.2012 at 02:08 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 23:48 [UT]:
I first read about these patterns in the chart via John Townley; I really do wish Marc Edmund Jones' name was not associated with them,because of the Sabian-symbol association. There are so many other analyses of the individual degrees, which predated Jones by centuries,
and yet you'd never know it, since the only system you seem to hear about nowadays is his. But I digress.
Here are a few other links to illustrate these patterns in the chart:
http://www.astrococktail.com/planetaryorderIII.html
andhttp://claytentylor.com/astronotes12.html
So many bucket charts; apparently, that's the most common? Mine is also a bucket.

Townley and Tyler are fluffier than Jones. Well, as as far as I know he invented them so conventionally speaking
he deserves to have them named after him.

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Owlocity
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #8 - on: 10.01.2012 at 05:19 [UT] »Do you include Chiron and the North Node in the structure? When I include these I have a Locomotive chartwith Saturn as the leading planet, when I don't include N K I have a Bowl chart.

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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #9 - on: 10.01.2012 at 05:56 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 10.01.2012 at 00:13 [UT]:
Although I do not include chart patterns in my readings for others, (as time does not permit), I have found that I definitely identify withmy bundle chart. All my planets are contained in the 7 th house thru the cusp of the 11th...and just under an exact trine from the planetin the 7th to the one on the 11th cusp.
I have no oppositions, no intercepted signs, no retrogrades. I feel I have a very karmic chart (in fact, the asteroid "karma" falls withinminutes of my MC.) In a way this consoles me when I feel "life isn't fair." I guess it is what it is supposed to be.
LainieAre the Sun and Moon in the 3rd quadrant? If so have you had much success in terms of forming close
relationships with friends, lovers, etc.
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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #10 - on: 10.01.2012 at 06:03 [UT] »Quote from Owlocity on 10.01.2012 at 05:19 [UT]:Do you include Chiron and the North Node in the structure? When I include these I have a Locomotive chart with Saturn as the leading
planet, when I don't include
I have a Bowl chart.

NK

Traditionally, the nodes and Chiron are not included. I really don't know if there is total agreement on this.
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zippyMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #11 - on: 10.01.2012 at 15:05 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 06:03 [UT]:
Quote from Owlocity on 10.01.2012 at 05:19 [UT]:Do you include Chiron and the North Node in the structure? When I include these I have a Locomotive chart with Saturn as
the leading planet, when I don't include
I have a Bowl chart.

NK

Posts: 8143
Traditionally, the nodes and Chiron are not included. I really don't know if there is total agreement on this.

I don't include the Nodes and Chiron in the basic chart shape...
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Nixx1234
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #12 - on: 10.01.2012 at 16:18 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 06:03 [UT]:
Quote from Owlocity on 10.01.2012 at 05:19 [UT]:Do you include Chiron and the North Node in the structure? When I include these I have a Locomotive chart with Saturn as
the leading planet, when I don't include

N K I have a Bowl chart.

Traditionally, the nodes and Chiron are not included. I really don't know if there is total agreement on this.

One issue is did Jones include them, and in the case of Chiron no as it was not 'known' about then, and I don't
think he would have considered a node .
You can if you wish stick a 1,000 asteroids on the chart, but then your Jones pattern becomes harder to spot.
So you could create a new patterning structure with 700 on one side and 300 on the other, call it lopped andgenerate some meanings.
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Carls mate

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #13 - on: 10.01.2012 at 17:49 [UT] »I'm not sure what my chart type is.

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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #14 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:25 [UT] »Carl's Mate,That's a bucket, with moon as the handle.

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Aquamaid

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #15 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:35 [UT] »ignoring my part of fortune, M and vertex I most definitely have a locomotive chart with the signs bcde
empty. yes I have problems with the empty section which is the relationship side of things, always been far too
comfortable on my own and with most planets on the 'I' side of my chart that makes sense. plus the idea I
need to learn about the empty section makes sense too and fits in with having Ka in the 5th house which is
Posts: 3999
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about romance and relationships with children too. I can't quite figure out which is the leading planet though?
F or K ? am hoping it isn't G as it is weakly aspected in my chart and the aspects it makes are difficult ones;tA uI I think if is is F as my chart ruler this would be positive
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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #16 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:46 [UT] »Hi again Angi,
Here's a link to Bob Marks' description of the Locomotive chart, and he would say that your Jupiter is theleading or "cutting" planet. That's good, huh? We're getting kind of tired of Saturn getting all the attention
around here.
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/locomotive.html
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Catalina

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #17 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:49 [UT] »Section 10 of this link has Bob Marks' descriptions of these patterns:
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm

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Aquamaid
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #18 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:51 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 18:46 [UT]:
Hi again Angi,
Here's a link to Bob Marks' description of the Locomotive chart, and he would say that your Jupiter is the leading or "cutting" planet.
That's good, huh? We're getting kind of tired of Saturn getting all the attention around here.

Posts: 3999
Gender:http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/locomotive.html

excellent news

just read the link and yes by bob marks calculations it is indeed my F leading/cutting. my Ff ( in fall and retrograde) needs a bit of help here and this is helpful, gives F back some of it's power to leadmy chart and in the 9th too! maybe all that studying I did will reap me some rewards someday

yes verytired of G too.
thank you
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #19 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:52 [UT] »Thanks for all the great links everyone! Is a noodle box one of the patterns? I think I can see one in my chart

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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #20 - on: 10.01.2012 at 18:54 [UT] »Looks like a locomotive with Venus leading to me. Nice Venus placement, BTW.
----Hmmm. On the other hand, it's almost a bowl and almost a bucket. I don't know.
-----OK, after rereading here: http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/funnel.html your chart seems to qualify
as a bucket or "funnel" in Marks' terminology. That would make Saturn the focal point.
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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #21 - on: 10.01.2012 at 19:17 [UT] »Quote from Carls mate on 10.01.2012 at 17:49 [UT]:
I'm not sure what my chart type is.

SplashTo do with diversification, maybe.
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truegem620
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #22 - on: 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT] »carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

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truegem620

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #23 - on: 10.01.2012 at 20:23 [UT] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 10.01.2012 at 18:52 [UT]:Thanks for all the great links everyone! Is a noodle box one of the patterns? I think I can see one in my chart

Well it's not quite a bucket and it's not quite a bowl...
i read somewhere that not every chart will fall distinctly into just one pattern. Yours just might be noodle soup

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PhoebeEx Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #24 - on: 10.01.2012 at 20:31 [UT] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 10.01.2012 at 18:52 [UT]:Thanks for all the great links everyone! Is a noodle box one of the patterns? I think I can see one in my chart

I see a heart.
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truegem620

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #25 - on: 10.01.2012 at 20:38 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT]:There are quite a few possible shapes your chart can take (I'm not talking about aspect patterns, but the Splay or Splash chart, theBucket, Bundle, See-Saw, Locomotive, etc.). Do you believe your chart's structure actually represents your reality? In other words, if you
had to characterize yourself, would the shape of your chart help describe you, or do you feel like you and your chart's shape bear noresemblance to each other?
Here is an online article that sums up this idea, and if you want to post your chart, I think that would be very helpful for the purposes ofillustrating the shape itself.

Posts: 4466
Gender:Though I don't think it's imperative, I do think looking at the overall pattern of a chart can be useful. It's thefirst thing we see when we look at a chart and seeing from the big picture can give us an idea of a certain
orientation that helps to set a tone for the rest of the chart.
(I believe) Mine is a splash. This fits, but I am also a c so I guess it would. Though often there can be many
aspects to a chart that can explain the same thing, having extra layers to work with, IMHO, is never a badthing. I believe every piece of information we extract from a natal chart is potentially useful, and just adds
depth of information.
If I can remember how, I will post my chart.

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Nixx1234
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #26 - on: 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

With 2 handles?
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #27 - on: 10.01.2012 at 23:04 [UT] »Have concidered mine to be a locomotive.
Funnily those goddesses Ceres to Vesta seems to "rescue" (no?
) the chart as they fill up the gaps. But myb is alone.
I know that I´m very O driven. Still people say I´m so spontaneous...
...I will never grow up
How would you see a personality with this kind of a chart?

Nice to pic up this topic. Should cultivate this a bit more
Bibbe
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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #28 - on: 10.01.2012 at 23:28 [UT] »Bibbe,Your chart would be considered a bucket with the moon as the handle. Your moon, therefore, is mostsignificant. The asteroids and nodes should be left out when looking for the chart pattern, according to theastrologers I've read.

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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #29 - on: 10.01.2012 at 23:35 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:24 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

With 2 handles?

Chiron and NN should be ignored, so that's only one handle.

But you are then assuming the Jones patterns can only be used with the Jones planets. What would Jones say?
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truegem620
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #30 - on: 10.01.2012 at 23:48 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

With 2 handles?

Posts: 4466
Gender:Unless the two planets must be conjunct to be considered the handle.
I see F does throw the pattern...
But it can't be a splash with such a great gap between planets- the maximum distance allowed between planets
being 90 degrees.

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truegem620

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #31 - on: 10.01.2012 at 23:52 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 23:35 [UT]:
Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:24 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

Posts: 4466
Gender:With 2 handles?

Chiron and NN should be ignored, so that's only one handle.

But you are then assuming the Jones patterns can only be used with the Jones planets. What would Jones say?

Well the question then is how reliably the article included here (for reference) follows Jones' own method
because it only considers the planets +sun and moon.
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MorgenStern
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #32 - on: 10.01.2012 at 23:55 [UT] »I think I have a Fan. All planets in between 90° with moon in opp. It looks kind of strange. because it starts
with the opp near on B 28° Pisces, so is near 0°Aries, and goes (from Ff) to 21° sagg I. I do look in thechart and try to get a grip of a chart in general.
I don´t really can´t say how this exactly plays out. I asked that in fact myself, but over this years I didn´t findsth convincing.
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truegem620

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #33 - on: 11.01.2012 at 00:17 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:24 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

With 2 handles?

Posts: 4466
Gender:Chiron and NN should be ignored, so that's only one handle.

I thought he was referring to F
Because it is not on the same side of the hemisphere as the rest of the grouped planets.
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truegem620
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #34 - on: 11.01.2012 at 01:14 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 11.01.2012 at 00:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 11.01.2012 at 00:17 [UT]:
Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:24 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

Posts: 4466
Gender:With 2 handles?

Chiron and NN should be ignored, so that's only one handle.
I thought he was referring toF

Because it is not on the same side of the hemisphere as the rest of the grouped planets.

In the chart of Carls Mate, the bucket part is houses 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, and the handle is the moon. We have to remember that ahemisphere is half but not exclusive to the AC/DC and MC/IC axes.

Well if that is the case, then I still agree it is a bucket, with the handle the B
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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #35 - on: 11.01.2012 at 01:31 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 23:52 [UT]:
Well the question then is how reliably the article included here (for reference) follows Jones' own method because it only considers theplanets +sun and moon.

There are 3 links here to, briefer, approaches to shapes. ?
I am really asking what would happen if Jones was here today with Chiron et al, not that they are classified asplanets. or what would happen if another planet arrived in out solar system. Point being Jones ideas were a
product of what he had at his disposal. He may have retained the idea 'shapes' were usefu,l if not fundamental,
and even only kept planets up to Pluto in. What was the logic behind the strucutres?
PS- The book is in a box but i think 2 handles for the bucket may have been acceptable to him ? If the handle
is a focus then particularly if conjunct you can merge these together perhaps?
With this chart, Moon and Chiorn are tight so the questions are along the lines of , is the 'focus of interest' themother who triggers a feeling of incompleteness, or is it that this less bounded 'cause' was largely generated
by this relationship ?
Carls Mate may need to tell us what she thinks.
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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #36 - on: 11.01.2012 at 01:41 [UT] »Quote:
PS- The book is in a box but i think 2 handles for the bucket may have been acceptable to him ? If the handle is a focus then particularly
if conjunct you can merge these together perhaps?

I would agree that 2 planets conjunct can form a handle. As far as the inclusion of Chiron as a consideration in
the chart pattern, I just haven't seen that in the several (forgotten) sources I've read. Of course, in thinking
about the meaning of her moon "handle," CM would definitely have to factor in the conjunction to Chiron.
My approach would be to determine the meaning of moon in the 5th; combine that with the meaning of moonm Chiron; then find out if that is really a very powerful statement of who she is.
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #37 - on: 11.01.2012 at 02:53 [UT] »"Are the Sun and Moon in the 3rd quadrant? If so have you had much success in terms of forming close
relationships with friends, lovers, etc. "Posts: 17033

My moon is in the 8th, Sun in the 9th. My success with relationships has been very transitory. But I can't argue
with what is.
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beyond the stars
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #38 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:00 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 23:52 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 23:35 [UT]:
Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:24 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 22:53 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 20:15 [UT]:carls mate,
I agree that your chart follows the bucket pattern.

Posts: 1005

With 2 handles?

Chiron and NN should be ignored, so that's only one handle.

But you are then assuming the Jones patterns can only be used with the Jones planets. What would Jones say?
Well the question then is how reliably the article included here (for reference) follows Jones' own method because it only considers theplanets +sun and moon.

I don't care about Jones! Get off Jones! No more Jones!!
I learned this from Townley. Nix Nyx's Jones!!!
No Jonesing on Jones!!
OK, I'm done.
Being entirely serious now, one has to use only the amount of celestial information that contains exactly theright amount of information; no more, no less. (Personally, I can't be bothered including asteroids in thissetup; they move too fast. Now, what we should be taking into consideration, it seems to me, is Ceres, whichrivals Pluto in importance in so many ways, but that's for another thread, possibly.)
Also, no fixed stars, no Chiron. Just your basic planets. That ought to be enough, whether you're Jones or notJones.
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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #39 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:13 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 11.01.2012 at 02:53 [UT]:"Are the Sun and Moon in the 3rd quadrant? If so have you had much success in terms of forming close relationships with friends, lovers,etc. "
My moon is in the 8th, Sun in the 9th. My success with relationships has been very transitory. But I can't argue with what is.
LainieIt's to do with the idea both lights in the 'YOU'. as opposed to I. ME OR US quadrants hinders the capacity to
see yourself as others see you, thus 'personal' relationships can be problematic.
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Nixx1234
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #40 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:16 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 11.01.2012 at 03:00 [UT]:
I don't care about Jones! Get off Jones! No more Jones!!
I learned this from Townley. Nix Nyx's Jones!!!
No Jonesing on Jones!!
OK, I'm done.
Being entirely serious now, one has to use only the amount of celestial information that contains exactly the right amount of information;
no more, no less. (Personally, I can't be bothered including asteroids in this setup; they move too fast. Now, what we should be taking
into consideration, it seems to me, is Ceres, which rivals Pluto in importance in so many ways, but that's for another thread, possibly.)
Also, no fixed stars, no Chiron. Just your basic planets. That ought to be enough, whether you're Jones or not-Jones.

Jones is the Bones. Is Ceres part of ones Bones?
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Carls mate

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #41 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT] »I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in
the other hemisphere. In my case, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moonin fifth, with the rest of the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.
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Catalina
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #42 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:22 [UT] »Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in the other hemisphere. In mycase, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moon in fifth, with the rest of the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.

No, your planets in houses 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1 are all in one-half, or hemisphere, of the chart. Don't restrict
yourself to the AC/DC and MC/IC axes. The other axes are equally valid.
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Nixx1234

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #43 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:29 [UT] »Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in the other hemisphere. In mycase, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moon in fifth, with the rest of the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.

It makes more sense to read the meanings, the Jones ones, and then choose the one which is more resonant toyour realities.
Funny thing about the bucket type is the idea they wait for the world to discover them, and here you arewaiting for us to discover what is your understanding of you.
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Catalina
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #44 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:33 [UT] »Quote:
Funny thing about the bucket type is the idea they wait for the world to discover them,

Where did that come from?
I don't want the world to discover me. I want to discover the world!
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Nixx1234

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #45 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:46 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 11.01.2012 at 03:33 [UT]:
Quote:
Funny thing about the bucket type is the idea they wait for the world to discover them,

Where did that come from?
I don't want the world to discover me. I want to discover the world!

The Bones hopefully
I think it might be the idea the 'singleton' is perceived as a gift waiting to be used, or discovered.
Do you have a particular quality of any use to us, or you ?
If you do travel the world avoid Grimsby, and Patagonia.
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Catalina
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #46 - on: 11.01.2012 at 03:51 [UT] »Quote:
I think it might be the idea the 'singleton' is perceived as a gift waiting to be used, or discovered

I can only speak for myself. I'm not waiting to be discovered, but I've always had a sense of destiny, that there
was something special that I was meant to do. I don't know what it is yet, though, and time's almost up.

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truegem620

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #47 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:22 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 11.01.2012 at 01:31 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 10.01.2012 at 23:52 [UT]:
Well the question then is how reliably the article included here (for reference) follows Jones' own method because it only
considers the planets +sun and moon.

There are 3 links here to, briefer, approaches to shapes. ?
I am really asking what would happen if Jones was here today with Chiron et al, not that they are classified as planets. or what would

Posts: 4466
Gender:happen if another planet arrived in out solar system. Point being Jones ideas were a product of what he had at his disposal. He may haveretained the idea 'shapes' were usefu,l if not fundamental, and even only kept planets up to Pluto in. What was the logic behind thestrucutres?
PS- The book is in a box but i think 2 handles for the bucket may have been acceptable to him ? If the handle is a focus then particularly
if conjunct you can merge these together perhaps?
With this chart, Moon and Chiorn are tight so the questions are along the lines of , is the 'focus of interest' the mother who triggers afeeling of incompleteness, or is it that this less bounded 'cause' was largely generated by this relationship ?
Carls Mate may need to tell us what she thinks.

Fair enough- link(s).
Generally, as a rule of thumb, don't most astrologers NOT include chiron etc. in major aspect patterns? Suchas with grand trine, grand square etc? So this isn't any new kind of dilemma? I suppose at this point it would
be up to each individual astrologer to figure out how they believe Chrion etc. should be worked into the mix, ornot...since asking Jones isn't an option.
If the planets acting as the handle for the bucket are conjunct, according to the literature, this would be somekind of double handle. But it also includes that they must be within 30 degrees to be counted as such. So
apparently Jupiter can’t be a handle. But that’s where it gets a little hazy, is whether or not it could beconsidered to be part of the bucket formation, when it is on the other side of the hemisphere as the other parts
that make up the ‘bucket’. Some people here think that it would. Maybe I am taking it too literally?
You see the moon as mother- I however see that as a gross simplification so I wouldn't ask that question.
Though I'm certain astrologers from the 50s could have jumped on such a configuration to support a‘refrigerator mother’ diagnosis.
What does that have to do with overall structure of her chart?
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Nixx1234
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #48 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:24 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 11.01.2012 at 03:51 [UT]:
Quote:
I think it might be the idea the 'singleton' is perceived as a gift waiting to be used, or discovered

I can only speak for myself. I'm not waiting to be discovered, but I've always had a sense of destiny, that there was something special
that I was meant to do. I don't know what it is yet, though, and time's almost up.

So it might be fair to say you've been waiting for glory, rather than getting off your derriere and looking foryour destiny..........
Did you wonder about becoming a ventriloquist ?
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Catalina

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #49 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:27 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 11.01.2012 at 04:24 [UT]:
Quote from Catalina on 11.01.2012 at 03:51 [UT]:
Quote:
I think it might be the idea the 'singleton' is perceived as a gift waiting to be used, or discovered

I can only speak for myself. I'm not waiting to be discovered, but I've always had a sense of destiny, that there wassomething special that I was meant to do. I don't know what it is yet, though, and time's almost up.

So it might be fair to say you've been waiting for glory, rather than getting off your derriere and looking for your destiny..........
Did you wonder about becoming a ventriloquist ?

OH, but my destiny will be found while I'm doing something on my derriere . . . like astrology, for example.
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truegem620
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #50 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:35 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 11.01.2012 at 03:00 [UT]:

I don't care about Jones! Get off Jones! No more Jones!!
I learned this from Townley. Nix Nyx's Jones!!!
No Jonesing on Jones!!
OK, I'm done.

Posts: 4466
Gender:Being entirely serious now, one has to use only the amount of celestial information that contains exactly the right amount of information;
no more, no less. (Personally, I can't be bothered including asteroids in this setup; they move too fast. Now, what we should be taking
into consideration, it seems to me, is Ceres, which rivals Pluto in importance in so many ways, but that's for another thread, possibly.)
Also, no fixed stars, no Chiron. Just your basic planets. That ought to be enough, whether you're Jones or not-Jones.

To be honest, you said Jones more than me. Oops, there is one more. You're still ahead.
I wouldn't factor in any of those other bodies either, and in all honesty Ceres included. I would be far too
careful than to dismiss J like that. Never know when that might come back in subtle ways to torment you.
Just for the record, the demotion of Pluto debate is certainly for another thread
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truegem620

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #51 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:37 [UT] »Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in the other hemisphere. In mycase, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moon in fifth, with the rest of the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.

I think from what I am reading from others here, we are taking that hemispheric thing way to literally. I really
don't know, I'm having a difficult time moving past the bold line.
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truegem620
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #52 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:40 [UT] »Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in the other hemisphere. In mycase, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moon in fifth, with the rest of the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.

Do you relate any more to one configuration over the other?
Locomotive vs Bucket
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truegem620

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #53 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:47 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 11.01.2012 at 04:26 [UT]:
Quote:
So apparently Jupiter can’t be a handle. But that’s where it gets a little hazy, is whether or not it could be considered to bepart of the bucket formation, when it is on the other side of the hemisphere as the other parts that make up the ‘bucket’

Hi, it's not hazy. You're confining your definition of hemisphere to MC/IC or AC/DC. ANY half of the chart is a hemisphere.

Posts: 4466
Gender:Ok, I'll give you that. This is where I got a little hazy.

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nameinuse
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #54 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:50 [UT] »I have a bowl chart. Very rich internal life.

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beyond the stars

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #55 - on: 11.01.2012 at 04:55 [UT] »I keep writing things that will derail my own thread and then deleting them. I can't help it; I'm a born troublemaker.
I can't be more specific than that, because it would involve typing the word 'jones,' and we don't need to see
any more of that.

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truegem620
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #56 - on: 11.01.2012 at 06:11 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 11.01.2012 at 04:55 [UT]:
I keep writing things that will derail my own thread and then deleting them. I can't help it; I'm a born trouble-maker.
I can't be more specific than that, because it would involve typing the word 'jones,' and we don't need to see any more of that.

Well you certainly are entitled to derail your own thread.
So what planet serves as the handle for your bucket? What planet leads and what planet trails? Do you feel
this overall chart pattern describes you in some way?
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #57 - on: 11.01.2012 at 15:53 [UT] »CatalinaYour chart would be considered a bucket with the moon as the handle. Your moon, therefore, is mostsignificant. The asteroids and nodes should be left out when looking for the chart pattern, according to theastrologers I've read.

Well, yes and thanks.
It is the signwise opposition that divides the chart. Not the axis 4/10 in my case.
The Moon is a big player.
When it is hit, by transits or Sa or progressions it is biggie.
How about others with a lonely planet? How is it leading the hscope?
Bibbe
ADD
Well.... reading on... what about this:The planet (handle) must be at least 60 dgr apart from an other planet. Then my B is not valid.
But valid in the locomotive with at least 4 empty signs?

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MorgenStern
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #58 - on: 11.01.2012 at 16:01 [UT] »I agree to that, that having a all planets in (nearly) one area is "secialising". I heard that planets overall thechart makes you more intelligent in the sense of aware, mature. (no offense). Theses charts (all planets arebunched) are appearing a lot since the 80s, while before you can find the plantes more spread, at least that iswhat I observed. People before the 80s really rarely have that planets sticking together. My teacher ingeography told (when I was 15 or so/ hate to mention him) that we are now in a time where people inprofession have to be more specialised. That is true. When you study economy ie you can specialise in so many
areas even by education itself (it is not on the job, that is what I mean). I think it is true, when you have thatplanets stuck together, it is important to concentrate on yourself, your hobbies and talents.
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MorgenStern

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #59 - on: 11.01.2012 at 16:10 [UT] »Quote from bibbe on 11.01.2012 at 15:53 [UT]:CatalinaYour chart would be considered a bucket with the moon as the handle. Your moon, therefore, is most significant. The asteroids and nodes
should be left out when looking for the chart pattern, according to the astrologers I've read.

Well, yes and thanks.
It is the signwise opposition that divides the chart. Not the axis 4/10 in my case.
The Moon is a big player.
When it is hit, by transits or Sa or progressions it is biggie.
How about others with a lonely planet? How is it leading the hscope?
Bibbe
ADD
Well.... reading on... what about this:The planet (handle) must be at least 60 dgr apart from an other planet. Then my

B is not valid.

But valid in the locomotive with at least 4 empty signs?

I do have the moon as a singelton, I am not into transits unfortunately.. shortly I had Uranus on it, but I am
not under the impression that it had an impact. I don´t feel that my moon is important at all. Although themoon recieves a lot of aspects. it is the most aspected planet in the chart. Still I am wondering what he isdoing. My moon os elevated over mercury so you can call me emotional, my decisions are kind of emotional,
but exaclty only them, because I am overall a rational person (Libra), as in antoher thread about Libras,
thinking is very important to me, more that emotions. Maybe I can say this that I think apart from my father,my mother and my brother raised me.. the relation is expressed through the Moon Jupiter opposition. I guess
what I "learned" (copied?!) from my mother affects mostly friiendships, how I "behave" there (moon in 11),
while 5th, affairs, hobbies is influenced by my brother (who I admire). Also my moral is completley influenced
by my brother (and father) and my brother Jupiter conj my father saturn (I am nightborn so saturn is the sig
for father).. saturn also rules my 9th house.
In fact I have more problems ti integrate the moon
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #60 - on: 11.01.2012 at 18:13 [UT] »Yes, wow, what a good point to think of he evolution of the man is showing up in the chart.
MorgenStern, you have quite good insight.
Perhaps having my B ruling an angle makes is prone for
influenses. Ruling my 4H so after all it is also about endings and beginnings.
What do you like this:
http://www.astrologyclub.org/articles/singletons/moon/moon.htm
This "special" child. Well, perhaps in some occasions it played out that way, but I don´t no for sure if that has
to do with the Moon?
Ah, it seems I got a problem here. Have to ask myself...who am I?
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Carls mate

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #61 - on: 11.01.2012 at 18:55 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 11.01.2012 at 03:22 [UT]:
Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in the otherhemisphere. In my case, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moon in fifth, with the restof the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.

No, your planets in houses 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1 are all in one-half, or hemisphere, of the chart. Don't restrict yourself to the AC/DC andMC/IC axes. The other axes are equally valid.

But it's the angles that divide the chart into hemispheres in the first place. The ASC/DSC divides the chart into
the northern (houses 1-6) hemisphere and the southern (houses 7-12) hemisphere. And the MC IC axis divides
the chart into the eastern (houses 10, 11, 12, 1, 2 and 3) hemisphere and western (houses 4-9) hemisphere.
Eight of my planets are in the southern hemisphere, the other two are in the northern hemisphere and the twoin the northern hemisphere are *not* conjunct.
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Carls mate
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #62 - on: 11.01.2012 at 19:35 [UT] »Having read the links again, I'm sure I have a locomotive chart, not a bucket. With a bucket chart, the planets
occupy a maximum of 190 degrees, with a grand trine in my chart (and considering the fact that a trine is a
120 degree aspect), there's at least 240 degrees between all the planets.

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Sagitaurean

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #63 - on: 12.01.2012 at 14:44 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 09.01.2012 at 17:20 [UT]:
Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT]:
If you do not believe in the idea or concept of the chart having a shape, or that it would matter one way or the other, besure to say so. This idea has only become 'popular' fairly recently (in the past 30 years or so), and while it's very
interesting, it might not translate to what you think is true for you or for astrology in general.

I would say these Jones Patterns have become less 'popular' in the last 30 years or so?

Posts: 186

I have a see saw and think about oppostions a lot. It may be the idea of the 'shape' focuses my mind more on the importance of these
dynamics. I found Jones ideas about them, and some others, a bit fuzzy for my mind.

Another See-Saw here. While the description of the See-Saw has some appeal, you can see from my chart thatthe opposition involved isn't quite as central as you would expect. There are plenty more aspects going on
between the groups than just the opposition. Almost also qualifies as a Bowl pattern too.
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taurussunleorising1Re: The Structure of Your Chart
Ex Member« Reply #64 - on: 12.01.2012 at 15:13 [UT] »locomotive i think

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Frank

Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #65 - on: 15.01.2012 at 02:53 [UT] »I THOUGHT I had a bundle chart but it turns out mine doesn't fit the tight orb range of a Bundle. A bundle is
120 degrees, my chart is about 154? Which probably makes it a tight 'bowl' chart for all intents and purposes.
Honestly I see myself in both 'types', though...
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Carls mate
Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #66 - on: 15.01.2012 at 20:58 [UT] »Okay, the other night I calculated that my planets cover 233 degrees of the zodiac. And a locomotive covers a
max of 240, whereas a bucket is 190. And 233 is a lot closer to 240 than 190. So, while not a perfect match,
my chart comes the closest to fitting the locomotive, given the degrees.
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beyond the stars

Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #67 - on: 16.01.2012 at 03:14 [UT] »... well, if it's any consolation (which you guys probably don't feel any need for, now that I think of it) I havelong thought I had a bucket chart, and it turns out, I have a bowl-shaped chart, since everything coexists
within 161˚ of each other. So... everything in my chart lies in houses 1-7, and the other houses are empty ofmajor planets. This has proved to be quite a challenge; I wasn't always so modest and retiring. I had to learn
how to be an introvert.
I am pasting the following in from a website that has so much advertising, I can't really read the text properly.
Keep in mind that you might not agree with everything it says, and it might not be "right." These are things wePosts: 1005

must take in our stride.

THE HEMISPHERE INFLUENCES
The planets positions often seem to become clustered in one part of the chart or another. When this occurs,
there is a sort of hemisphere preponderance. A division of the circle perpendicularly produces two hemispheres,
east and west. A split horizontally produces a southern hemisphere and a northern hemisphere. As you view
your natal horoscope, the hemisphere on the left side of the chart is the eastern hemisphere with the extreme
eastern point, the eastern horizon, being the Ascendant. The opposite side of the chart is the descendant or
western hemisphere. The upper hemisphere on the chart is the South Midheaven, the medium Coeli (MC) or
southern hemisphere. The lower half of the chart is the Imum Coeli (IC), the lowest heaven, or northernhemisphere. It is not unusual for there to be an emphasis in one direction or the other. Here is an idea of what
you may anticipate from the hemisphere emphasis:
When Most of the Planets are in the...
Eastern Hemisphere
The planets clustered in the eastern hemisphere suggest that you're likely to be more independent, strongwilled, and more individualistic than reading of your signs may otherwise suggest. The placements on the eastside denotes leadership ability, a self-starter, one who is self-motivated and often self-employed; a risk-taker. In
short, you're more apt to be the author of your own destiny, and one likely to have many choices in life.
Western Hemisphere
The planets clustered in the western hemisphere suggest that you are highly adaptable to opportunities, but
you are also somewhat dependent on others in many ways. You are passive or subtle in your actions, often
permitting others to take the lead. You work best in a partnership or group employment arrangements, always
having others involved in your destiny. You have a sense for taking advantage of opportunities that arepresented to you, and because of this you usually make the most of them.
Southern Hemisphere
The planets clustered in the southern hemisphere suggest that you are ambitious, career oriented, andgenerally want fame and recognition. You have an objective view of life that lets you enjoys working withothers. You are very active in the outside world, having broad material values and goals. There is much that isvisible when the planets are in the south; little that you say or do escapes public view.
Northern Hemisphere
The planets clustered in the northern hemisphere suggest a very subjective view of life with personal privacy
noted as important. You enjoy working alone because you are a little introspective and perhaps evenintroverted. So your accomplishment may often lack recognition. This more subjective view of matters can
produce significant focus and thrust of action.
The northeast
When the planets occupy the northeast, you place great faith in your native abilities and you are less inclined totrust others with tasks that you feel you can do better on your own. You tend to be naïvely self-contained andhighly subjective in your judgments. You place a great value on maintaining your privacy.
The southeast
Planets focused in the southeastern quarter of the chart shows a highly self-contained individual very much incontrol of your destiny. This is a very outward focused grouping showing one who is totally willing to consider
others in life situations. There is a tendency to seek self-fulfillment through sharing with others and success ismeasured not so much by your standards, but by what opinion others hold of you.
The northwest
Planets in a cluster in the northwestern quarter of the chart suggests that you are an adaptive, reactive andpractical individual. You will seek fulfillment through the development and expansion of your native talents andabilities in an attempt to improve upon some phase of life that you consider of particular importance. You are
apt to be strongly influenced in this regard by others, and by acts that you yourself do not initiate.
The southwest
When planets occupy the southwestern quarter of the chart, actions in your life are open and exposed toothers, and your activities are very much a matter of public attention and record. The achievement of any
degree of self-realization requires that you give of yourself. Others will constantly prove to be a drain on yourenergies and resources. Though you may find yourself in the spotlight, you may always seem to lack complete
control of matters.
© Michael McClain 1996-2011. Permission is granted for unlimited noncommercial use. All other rights
reserved.
http://astrology-numerology.com/hemisphere.html

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Nixx1234
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #68 - on: 16.01.2012 at 03:43 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 16.01.2012 at 03:14 [UT]:... well, if it's any consolation (which you guys probably don't feel any need for, now that I think of it) I have long thought I had a bucket
chart, and it turns out, I have a bowl-shaped chart, since everything coexists within 161˚ of each other. So... everything in my chart lies inhouses 1-7, and the other houses are empty of major planets. This has proved to be quite a challenge; I wasn't always so modest andretiring. I had to learn how to be an introvert.

Where does this idea of under the horizon = introversion come from, what is the logic of it , if any?
Is this introvert in the Jungian sense ?
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zippyMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #69 - on: 16.01.2012 at 17:16 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 16.01.2012 at 03:43 [UT]:
Quote from beyond the stars on 16.01.2012 at 03:14 [UT]:... well, if it's any consolation (which you guys probably don't feel any need for, now that I think of it) I have long thought
I had a bucket chart, and it turns out, I have a bowl-shaped chart, since everything coexists within 161˚ of each other.
So... everything in my chart lies in houses 1-7, and the other houses are empty of major planets. This has proved to be

Posts: 8143

quite a challenge; I wasn't always so modest and retiring. I had to learn how to be an introvert.

Where does this idea of under the horizon = introversion come from, what is the logic of it , if any?
Is this introvert in the Jungian sense ?

I always thought that under the horizon meant that the would will impact you, whereas above the horizon you
will have an impact on the world...
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #70 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:03 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT]:There are quite a few possible shapes your chart can take (I'm not talking about aspect patterns, but the Splay or Splash chart, theBucket, Bundle, See-Saw, Locomotive, etc.). Do you believe your chart's structure actually represents your reality? In other words, if you
had to characterize yourself, would the shape of your chart help describe you, or do you feel like you and your chart's shape bear noresemblance to each other?

Just noticed this thread (haven't been around all that much lately). I have a bucket chart, and do believe its
meaning according to Jones reflects my approach to things:
1. A missionary, with Ju as handle and a core opposition of Ma/Ju well describing my sometimes
aggressive/argumentative approach, as well as my idealism.
2. Lack of a rim opposition indicating that those ideas I'm so passionate about converting others to changeover time - a work in progress.
The only bit I don't quite get is the Ju singleton in the west, as I'm extremely eastern. Perhaps it describesthat my initiatives are nearly always in reaction to situations I see that I believe need attention or fixing.
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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #71 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:11 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 09.01.2012 at 17:20 [UT]:
Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 09:52 [UT]:
If you do not believe in the idea or concept of the chart having a shape, or that it would matter one way or the other, besure to say so. This idea has only become 'popular' fairly recently (in the past 30 years or so), and while it's very
interesting, it might not translate to what you think is true for you or for astrology in general.

I would say these Jones Patterns have become less 'popular' in the last 30 years or so?
I have a see saw and think about oppostions a lot. It may be the idea of the 'shape' focuses my mind more on the importance of these
dynamics. I found Jones ideas about them, and some others, a bit fuzzy for my mind.

A prominent part of Jones approach to astro methods was one of looking for factors and relationships thatstand out from the background - as Juan said in one of his threads - handles to grab and run with. So thepatterns, his ideas about singletons, emphasis and lack of emphasis (as seen in books like "Essentials of
Astrological Analysis") all tend to be elaborations of this theme of identifying what's important and using it toorganize one's reading of charts.
- Ed

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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #72 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:13 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 09.01.2012 at 23:48 [UT]:
I first read about these patterns in the chart via John Townley; I really do wish Marc Edmund Jones' name was not associated with them,because of the Sabian-symbol association.

That's a bit weird - not give him credit for his original work because other parts fo his work seem derivative?
One of my favorite musicians says that talent is knowing whose bits to steal. What you do with the material
that comes to you is what matters.
- Ed
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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #73 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:19 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 10.01.2012 at 16:18 [UT]:
Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 06:03 [UT]:
Quote from Owlocity on 10.01.2012 at 05:19 [UT]:Do you include Chiron and the North Node in the structure? When I include these I have a Locomotive chartwith Saturn as the leading planet, when I don't include

N K I have a Bowl chart.

Traditionally, the nodes and Chiron are not included. I really don't know if there is total agreement on this.

One issue is did Jones include them, and in the case of Chiron no as it was not 'known' about then, and I don't think he would haveconsidered a node .
You can if you wish stick a 1,000 asteroids on the chart, but then your Jones pattern becomes harder to spot. So you could create a newpatterning structure with 700 on one side and 300 on the other, call it lopped and generate some meanings.

In Jones' early work describing the patterns, we used an interesting device.

For people who lived before eg thediscovery of Pluto, he excluded it in describing their lifetimes, but included it to assess their influence after
death. He made a comment to the effect that as new planets were discovered they should be treatedanalogously. I guess he didn't anticipate the sheer quantity of space debris out there that would come toastrologers' attentions.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #74 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:28 [UT] »Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:28 [UT]:
Bibbe,Your chart would be considered a bucket with the moon as the handle. Your moon, therefore, is most significant. The asteroids and nodes
should be left out when looking for the chart pattern, according to the astrologers I've read.

Not enough distance between Mo and Ve. Call it an imperfect locomotive instead with Ur as cutting planet.
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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #75 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:40 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 11.01.2012 at 04:37 [UT]:
Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planet in the otherhemisphere. In my case, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first and Moon in fifth, with the restof the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.
I think from what I am reading from others here, we are taking that hemispheric thing way to literally. I really don't know, I'm having adifficult time moving past the bold line.

You're right. By "hemispheric" he meant spatial distribution, not location relative to the house grid (though hedoes use the grid to define degree of spatial separation at times).
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MorgenStern
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #76 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:48 [UT] »Quote from bibbe on 11.01.2012 at 18:13 [UT]:
Yes, wow, what a good point to think of he evolution of the man is showing up in the chart.
MorgenStern, you have quite good insight.

Perhaps having my

B ruling an angle makes is prone for influenses. Ruling my 4H so after

all it is also about endings and beginnings.
What do you like this:
http://www.astrologyclub.org/articles/singletons/moon/moon.htm
This "special" child. Well, perhaps in some occasions it played out that way, but I don´t no for sure if that has to do with the Moon?
Ah, it seems I got a problem here. Have to ask myself...who am I?

Thank you for the link I really enjoyed reading it. I can identify with what she wrote. very revealing. I now know
where this all comes from. Lots of things I tried to "deny" or even to solve but it didn´t work out that way I
would have expected it. very interesting.
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MorgenStern

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #77 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:49 [UT] »Quote from bibbe on 11.01.2012 at 18:13 [UT]:
Yes, wow, what a good point to think of he evolution of the man is showing up in the chart.
MorgenStern, you have quite good insight.

Perhaps having my

B ruling an angle makes is prone for influenses. Ruling my 4H so after

all it is also about endings and beginnings.
What do you like this:
http://www.astrologyclub.org/articles/singletons/moon/moon.htm
This "special" child. Well, perhaps in some occasions it played out that way, but I don´t no for sure if that has to do with the Moon?
Ah, it seems I got a problem here. Have to ask myself...who am I?

Thank you for the link I really enjoyed reading it. I can identify with what she wrote. very revealing. I now know
where this all comes from. Lots of things I tried to "deny" or even to solve but it didn´t work out that way I
would have expected it. very interesting.
edit: I have to say that I know two other girls who have moon songelton, and we all have it in pisces. One ofthem is Leo Sun in 4 (or so) and pisces moon in ten. She is in the gastronomy. I would have never guessedthat hese two have moon singelton, there is nothing mommylike about them (as I would imagaine a mommy
should be).
@Ed: Sorry but cont. about singeltons: Jupiter singelton, wouldn´t this be perfect for gambling? Somepokerplayers surely have that.
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aquarienne
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #78 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:50 [UT] »i'm guessing 'splash'...? the greatest distance between two planets is 93 degrees from saturn to moon.
i'm actually surprised this is one of the 'rarest' chart formations?
though i hate to admit it, the 'scatterbrain' interpretation rings a bit too true for my liking~aqua

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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #79 - on: 16.01.2012 at 18:58 [UT] »Quote from aquarienne on 16.01.2012 at 18:50 [UT]:
i'm guessing 'splash'...? the greatest distance between two planets is 93 degrees from saturn to moon.
i'm actually surprised this is one of the 'rarest' chart formations?
though i hate to admit it, the 'scatterbrain' interpretation rings a bit too true for my liking~aqua

I'm inclined to call it a see-saw.
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #80 - on: 16.01.2012 at 19:48 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 16.01.2012 at 18:58 [UT]:
Quote from aquarienne on 16.01.2012 at 18:50 [UT]:
i'm guessing 'splash'...? the greatest distance between two planets is 93 degrees from saturn to moon.
i'm actually surprised this is one of the 'rarest' chart formations?
though i hate to admit it, the 'scatterbrain' interpretation rings a bit too true for my liking~aqua

Posts: 983

I'm inclined to call it a see-saw.

would you say moon to neptune on one side, sun to saturn on the other? it seems to work, as there are at least
60 degrees between the two groups... and thee is opposition between saturn & uranus/pluto, and jupiter & sun.
sadly, it doesn't make me feel much better...
The SEE-SAW
In this pattern, the planets are split up into two distinct groups and separated by at least two signs, i.e. 60
degrees. There must be a minimum of two planets opposing each other, one from each group, so that the saidgroups face each other.
See-saw patterns are extremely rare. As a matter of fact, the native is constantly torn between one group or
the other. The personality is characterized by a duality that is quite difficult to solve in the beginning because
the decision-making process is necessarily tainted by hesitancy, and striking a balance proves quite gruelling. In
most cases, as the native matures, the integration of the two separated parts is achieved gradually and moreeasily if Saturn is strong. Ultimately, the see-saw pattern offers the rich fullness of the two opposite andcomplementary ends of the personality.
If we were to make an analogy with a sign, Libra would best fit the See-saw pattern, with its irresolutepersonality, its concern about choosing between a compromise and one of the two possibilities corresponding
to the two ends of the See-saw.
thanks for clarifying, ed!
EDIT: I just found something interesting about a see-saw pattern. the oppositions are apparently meant toform an 'hourglass' shape that contains the planets that lie within the oppositions on each side of the chart.
any planets outside of those 'containment zones' are considered 'high focus.' for me, that's mars, and also themoon and neptune which are in biquintile aspect in the chart. wonder what 'high-focus' means...huh...
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truegem620

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #81 - on: 16.01.2012 at 20:00 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 16.01.2012 at 18:40 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 11.01.2012 at 04:37 [UT]:
Quote from Carls mate on 11.01.2012 at 03:18 [UT]:
I was under the impression that a bucket is with nine planets in one hemisphere, with the remaining planetin the other hemisphere. In my case, I have two planets in the northern hemisphere with Jupiter in first andMoon in fifth, with the rest of the planets in houses 8-12.
So, I think it's a locomotive; and if I've read the links rights, the Moon is the cutting planet.

Posts: 4466
Gender:I think from what I am reading from others here, we are taking that hemispheric thing way to literally. I really don't know,
I'm having a difficult time moving past the bold line.

You're right. By "hemispheric" he meant spatial distribution, not location relative to the house grid (though he does use the grid to define
degree of spatial separation at times).

Thank you for that clarity.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #82 - on: 16.01.2012 at 20:08 [UT] »Quote from aquarienne on 16.01.2012 at 19:48 [UT]:
would you say moon to neptune on one side, sun to saturn on the other? it seems to work, as there are at least 60 degrees between thetwo groups... and thee is opposition between saturn & uranus/pluto, and jupiter & sun. sadly, it doesn't make me feel much better......
EDIT: I just found something interesting about a see-saw pattern. the oppositions are apparently meant to form an 'hourglass' shape that
contains the planets that lie within the oppositions on each side of the chart. any planets outside of those 'containment zones' areconsidered 'high focus.' for me, that's the moon and neptune... which are in biquintile aspect in the chart. huh...

Right, I'd use that division into groups you gave above. Jones presents interesting nuances in his examples inthe book I mentioned that depend on the presence or absence of various oppositions and the symmetry or lackof it.
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #83 - on: 16.01.2012 at 20:22 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 16.01.2012 at 20:08 [UT]:
Quote from aquarienne on 16.01.2012 at 19:48 [UT]:
would you say moon to neptune on one side, sun to saturn on the other? it seems to work, as there are at least 60 degrees
between the two groups... and thee is opposition between saturn & uranus/pluto, and jupiter & sun. sadly, it doesn't makeme feel much better......
EDIT: I just found something interesting about a see-saw pattern. the oppositions are apparently meant to form an'hourglass' shape that contains the planets that lie within the oppositions on each side of the chart. any planets outside ofthose 'containment zones' are considered 'high focus.' for me, that's the moon and neptune... which are in biquintile aspectin the chart. huh...

Posts: 983
Right, I'd use that division into groups you gave above. Jones presents interesting nuances in his examples in the book I mentioned that
depend on the presence or absence of various oppositions and the symmetry or lack of it.

thanks again! 'essentials of astrological analysis'? i'll have to order a copy...
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #84 - on: 16.01.2012 at 20:34 [UT] »Possibly his best book. You'll find a strange mix of ideas you're familiar with and not.

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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #85 - on: 17.01.2012 at 00:23 [UT] »Some patterns typically can be interpreted in more than one way. Mine is a bowl with the rim being thearrowhead made by Uranus Quindecile both Venus and Jupiter.
However it can also be taken as a bucket with a handle that is only partly risen, as Uranus has focal
determinator emphasis through being the only planet in the eastern hemisphere, meaning my efforts to makemy own way in life will be mainly through Uranus. The west hemisphere planets being contained within abiquintile (144dg) of Pluto to Venus. Uranus being considered sextile the Pluto Saturn conjunction.
Further emphasis is given to Uranus as the focus of a miniature fanhandle being the opposition from Sun
conjunct Jupiter and Mercury in Sagittarius. (To which one might add Uranus' position as the focal point of
the quindecile arrowhead).
In brief Uranus is particularly emphasized in my chart and the rising planet although on the cusp of the third
house, which does describe a lot about me such as functioning as a copywriter, tendency to freelance, day
to day freedom, and travel. The anonymity of authorship of much advertising writing especially whenfreelancing and perhaps completing or modifying an existing advertising campaign theme could well suit theexpression "ghost writer" which seems to reflect the position of my 8th house Sun, Jupiter, Mercury
conjunction in Sagittarius. I have also been called a resource (how very 8th house) and told I would be
added to a stable of writers (how horsey Sagittarian is that?). I nearly said "Neigh" get someone else (a senseof humour is vital in advertising). You will appreciate why I valued my independence.
Either way Uranus is focal whether as the cutting planet of a bowl, or the partly risen nozzle of a bucket witha wide but still effective opposition from the conjunction of Sun, Jupiter and Mercury.
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Catalina
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #86 - on: 17.01.2012 at 00:51 [UT] »I always enjoy reading your posts, sunsagmoonlib, in part because you have such depth of understanding ofyour own chart.
I had posted my chart earlier in the thread and then deleted it because I felt like I said "too much". But here itis again. Clearly a bucket with Jupiter in the 10th as the handle. This is where I live, and move, and have mybeing (loosely quoted from a Bible verse). Without it, I would be nothing.
Jupiter in 10th. MC ruled by Saturn. Jupiter rules 9th house Sagittarius. Jupiter trines Mercury, Venus, andMoon, and squares Mars.
I teach international students in a state university setting. Love it! But I've taught in other settings as well,such as overseas and in religious institutions.
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart

Nixx1234

Ex Member« Reply #87 - on: 17.01.2012 at 01:21 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 16.01.2012 at 18:11 [UT]:
A prominent part of Jones approach to astro methods was one of looking for factors and relationships that stand out from the background as Juan said in one of his threads - handles to grab and run with. So the patterns, his ideas about singletons, emphasis and lack ofemphasis (as seen in books like "Essentials of Astrological Analysis") all tend to be elaborations of this theme of identifying what's
important and using it to organize one's reading of charts.
- Ed

This is Juan - ''The main usefulness to me of the planetary distribution pattern is not the classification into
"temperaments" --these I have found quite useless in my personal practice-- but the "dynamic balancing" ofthe chart in terms of "weights". These weights are measured in terms of clockwise movement: herecomes the head, here the tail, here it spills on the empty part of the chart, here it folds, here it
hangs, here's the axis, here the focus, here the pushing, the pulling, here's the singletone... it is all
dynamical based on distribution along the circumference. When combined with the angles (rising,culminating...) the result is a powerful tool for establishing focality and dynamics based on a simple set of 2 or
3 planets only that "hold" the whole chart by themselves''.
http://expreso.co.cr/occamrazor/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35
Quote:In Jones' early work describing the patterns, we used an interesting device. For people who lived before eg the discovery of Pluto, he
excluded it in describing their lifetimes, but included it to assess their influence after death. He made a comment to the effect that as newplanets were discovered they should be treated analogously. I guess he didn't anticipate the sheer quantity of space debris out there thatwould come to astrologers' attentions.
Their influence on people left behind? Odd.

What do you/he? mean by 'Eastern' ?

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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #88 - on: 17.01.2012 at 01:30 [UT] »Thanks for your comments Catalina, it is always helpful to see a chart with a brief thumbnail sketch of one's
job or vocation and characteristic life pattern, so we can see how it reflects the chart pattern.
With that bowl segment of your chart being so complete I would imagine you have acquired a lot of knowledge,
skills or capabilities that are expressed through your Jupiter. I have a son with all his planets in a bowl
beneath the horizon and he has acquired lots of practical skills which make him a very useful person to havearound the house, and he keeps learning new skills or adding new qualifications of a practical kind all thetime such as being a qualified electrician, and taught it at technical college, welding, ability to navigate andqualified with a mariner's licence (don't know the exact name for it), scuba diving, ability to tie a variety
of knots for specific purposes, now plans aircraft loads and flight paths as a job, and so on...
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Krista ShippMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #89 - on: 17.01.2012 at 01:52 [UT] »I think I have a bowl- but with 2 handles ? (B & I ?)Just about everything I have ever done has involved publishing in one way or the other/ reaching the masses

I was an only child & have no children
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #90 - on: 17.01.2012 at 14:46 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 17.01.2012 at 01:21 [UT]:
What do you/he? mean by 'Eastern' ?

Rising from lower culmination to upper.

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart

zippy

Member« Reply #91 - on: 17.01.2012 at 17:19 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 17.01.2012 at 01:21 [UT]:
Quote from Ed Falis on 16.01.2012 at 18:11 [UT]:
A prominent part of Jones approach to astro methods was one of looking for factors and relationships that stand out fromthe background - as Juan said in one of his threads - handles to grab and run with. So the patterns, his ideas about
singletons, emphasis and lack of emphasis (as seen in books like "Essentials of Astrological Analysis") all tend to beelaborations of this theme of identifying what's important and using it to organize one's reading of charts.

Posts: 8143

- EdThis is Juan - ''The main usefulness to me of the planetary distribution pattern is not the classification into "temperaments" --these I havefound quite useless in my personal practice-- but the "dynamic balancing" of the chart in terms of "weights". These weights aremeasured in terms of clockwise movement: here comes the head, here the tail, here it spills on the empty part of the chart,here it folds, here it hangs, here's the axis, here the focus, here the pushing, the pulling, here's the singletone... it is all
dynamical based on distribution along the circumference. When combined with the angles (rising, culminating...) the result is a
powerful tool for establishing focality and dynamics based on a simple set of 2 or 3 planets only that "hold" the whole chart bythemselves''.
http://expreso.co.cr/occamrazor/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35
Quote:In Jones' early work describing the patterns, we used an interesting device. For people who lived before eg the discovery
of Pluto, he excluded it in describing their lifetimes, but included it to assess their influence after death. He made acomment to the effect that as new planets were discovered they should be treated analogously. I guess he didn't anticipate
the sheer quantity of space debris out there that would come to astrologers' attentions.
Their influence on people left behind? Odd.

What do you/he? mean by 'Eastern' ?

Excellent link! Great explanation of the chart shapes as well as the importance of "the 'dynamic balancing' of
the chart in terms of 'weights'". I think I'll try to order the book Marc Edmund Jones wrote "The Guide to
Horoscope Interpretation" (1941) which you said first used this approach!
Thanks again! Zippy
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FrankEx Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #92 - on: 18.01.2012 at 00:54 [UT] »Quote from beyond the stars on 16.01.2012 at 03:14 [UT]:... well, if it's any consolation (which you guys probably don't feel any need for, now that I think of it) I have long thought I had a bucket
chart, and it turns out, I have a bowl-shaped chart, since everything coexists within 161˚ of each other. So... everything in my chart lies inhouses 1-7, and the other houses are empty of major planets. This has proved to be quite a challenge; I wasn't always so modest andretiring. I had to learn how to be an introvert.
I am pasting the following in from a website that has so much advertising, I can't really read the text properly. Keep in mind that you
might not agree with everything it says, and it might not be "right." These are things we must take in our stride.

Honestly it's too simplistic if you take the time to sit down and think deeply about it.
First off - a lot of the more private houses are in the upper or more 'social' half of the chart. Eighth house islinked to Pluto, Scorpio, privacy and secrecy, for instance - and the twelfth house, definitely one of the mostprivate and retiring houses in a chart period, is in the UPPER half as well. So no I really can't side with thebroad interpretation that a pileup of planets in the upper half of a chart automatically means someone is araging extrovert.
As a personal example - just about everything in my chart is in the upper half, barring Mars and Chiron. And
that's not an exaggeration, literally everything else is up there. I also have a lot of planets in what's consideredprimarily social, dominant signs. Which is true - I do definitely have that side to me, but at the same time I'mhonestly pretty damn introverted, too - I'm both. Which at first when I'd read generalized descriptions like
that, I didn't understand. Then once I paid attention to what houses were tenanted, and the aspects they
made, things made a lot more sense.
Same thing for my younger sister, who has a huge stellium in Sag, in the lower half of her chart (right aroundthe IC) and she's honestly one of the most social people I've ever encountered, and seems to experience
absolutely no discomfort or fear in social situations and isn't particularly introverted, no. So it's really a
combination of factors.
Having said that, I don't consider extroversion a flaw or something that has to be 'corrected', either so I can't
really agree with your initial comments about extroversion being a 'challenge'. Not everybody was meant toblend in with the walls, and not everybody was meant to stand out like a sore thumb, either. I think neither
type is any better or worse than the other and that God put both here for a reason and that really they're bothnecessary.
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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #93 - on: 18.01.2012 at 03:06 [UT] »Hi Frank,
I take your points about the simplistic view of hemispheres being say introvert/extrovert.

However ME Jones tends to describe the division of above earth/below earth as being more to do with anobjective approach and a subjective approach. In one of the examples (page 55 Guide to HoroscopeInterpretation) he describes someone with planets predominantly in eastern and above horizon (i.e. Southeast quadrant) as being able to take conscious control of her destiny (east hemisphere) and that her life isfundamentally lived in an objective or frank and open style (South hemisphere).
In the case of Oliver Cromwell (p62) who had a below horizon bowl ME Jones says his primary concern isgetting down a real foundation for life and reordering the basis of the society in which he finds himself. The
orientation of the bowl (leading planet rising - scooping - but bowl horizontal - conserving) shows his
capacity for mobilizing and conserving the resources of the puritanical way of life. His battle was not only forProtestantism and Reformation, but also for the new sovereignty of man; which rests in parliament as
representative of the people at large and not in the King's person. His influence continues in the living political,
religious and cultural manifestation of man's self responsibility.
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Nixx1234
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #94 - on: 18.01.2012 at 04:44 [UT] »Quote:
Honestly it's too simplistic if you take the time to sit down and think deeply about it.
First off - a lot of the more private houses are in the upper or more 'social' half of the chart. Eighth house is linked to Pluto, Scorpio,
privacy and secrecy, for instance - and the twelfth house, definitely one of the most private and retiring houses in a chart period, is in the
UPPER half as well. So no I really can't side with the broad interpretation that a pileup of planets in the upper half of a chart automaticallymeans someone is a raging extrovert.

In late 20th century Psychological Systems the Masculine/Positive Signs are Extrovert and the
Feminine/Negative Introvert.
''The general-attitude types, as I have pointed out more than once, are differentiated by their particular
attitude to the object. The introvert's attitude to the object is an abstracting one; at bottom, he is always
facing the problem of how libido can be withdrawn from the object, as though an attempted ascendancy on.
The part of the object had to be continually frustrated. The extravert, on the contrary, maintains a positive
relation to the object. To such an extent does he affirm its importance that his subjective attitude is continually
being orientated by, and related to the object'' - JUNG
I don't think Jones was influenced by Jung, which Revilla also suggests on his forum, so if Jones used thesedescriptions on what basis?
However, going back to the Psychological System houses 1-7 are where the personality is processed and houses
7-12 the result of these dynamics so it seems coherent for these thinkers to suggest a greater amount of
introversion, or subjectivity, is apparent below the horizon.
The dance, or complexities, here are where a person has planets under the horizon but in the masculine houses.

Using ED’S chart as an example as it fits in nicely here. The idea here would be (ignoring chart shapes for nowwhich I don’t think fit in well, or at all, with this system!?) Ed’s ‘fate’ is an exploration of autonomy andpersonality (1-7) but he will do this with an 'orientation' towards other people and the outside world, as thelights are in Libra/Sag (Masculine Signs).
If the MBT is a good reflection of Jung’s ideas and Jung’s ideas are a good reflection of Astrological ones, ormore accurately Greene and Co have grasped Jung (not easy)and found a ‘legitimate’ fit with astrological signs,
then Ed ought not to score as a strong E or I and may in fact fluctuate between them. But, as both lights are
in E signs this may favour the E?
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Krista ShippMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #95 - on: 18.01.2012 at 05:02 [UT] »Can I get an an answer to above chart structure ?

Thanx
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beyond the stars
Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #96 - on: 18.01.2012 at 07:18 [UT] »Krista, this might be correct, but someone will have to check my math: the LOCOMOTIVE, which is actually achart with all the planets gathered on a large part of the Zodiac (quite the contrary of the BUNDLE), and where
there is an empty space of 120 degrees.
Do you have an empty space of 120˚? It looks like maybe you do. I didn't count the degrees, though.

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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #97 - on: 18.01.2012 at 11:00 [UT] »Krista I think you're almost exactly half way between a bowl and a locomotive, despite that empty section
through Taurus and Gemini . Of the two normally ME Jones said it was preferable to be a Locomotive forthe dynamic potential .
However I

think ME Jones would have described your chart as a seesaw with both Moon and Jupiter

opposing planets in the main group. He does have SeeSaw charts with 2 planets opposing some of theother 8. Here you have 8 within 90 degrees with an opposition to the Moon in the southwest quadrant
from Venus (possibly to do with art or beauty expressed in meticulous detail in day to day functioning (Venus
in virgo in 3rd) needing to be balanced with public image glamourised in publications (Moon in Pisces in 9th)
- of course you could pick other keywords to express those planets and signs . The second opposition
being between Jupiter and Neptune. The Moon is a cutting planet here; while Uranus is the leading or
cutting planet of the main grouping of planets, but as it is so close to Mars you could really say Uranus
Mars are together the cutting planets of the main bunch and this would give you considerable assertivenessalthough in the 12th so somewhat hidden; yet your foreground Jupiter in Aries and Moon ruling Mars
Uranus would pick up on the assertiveness and your originality with Mars Uranus the focal point of a T square,
and with your rising Sun at Ascendant also emphasizing your uniqueness or desire to be so.
Swedenborg is an example of a seesaw type with 2 planets separate from the other 8. While ME Jones gives
another example as Luther Burbank an American of his era who he describes as the outstanding mediator
between the natural and cultivated organism ( planet grower). He had like yourself Moon and Jupiter as thetwo separate planets with the other 8 in a tight bundle like yours. (page 101 of Guide to Horoscopeinterpretation)
I think for you, you need to think about SeeSaw charts and whether this fits your life. Do you see bothsides of issues? It suggests a tendency to act at all times unde a consideration of opposing views or througha sensitiveness to contrasting and antagonistic possibilities.
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #98 - on: 18.01.2012 at 13:22 [UT] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 17.01.2012 at 00:23 [UT]:Some patterns typically can be interpreted in more than one way. Mine is a bowl with the rim being the arrowhead made by Uranus
Quindecile both Venus and Jupiter.
However it can also be taken as a bucket with a handle that is only partly risen, as Uranus has focal determinator emphasis through being
the only planet in the eastern hemisphere, meaning my efforts to make my own way in life will be mainly through Uranus. The west
hemisphere planets being contained within a biquintile (144dg) of Pluto to Venus. Uranus being considered sextile the Pluto Saturnconjunction.
Further emphasis is given to Uranus as the focus of a miniature fanhandle being the opposition from Sun conjunct Jupiter and Mercury in
Sagittarius. (To which one might add Uranus' position as the focal point of the quindecile arrowhead).
In brief Uranus is particularly emphasized in my chart and the rising planet although on the cusp of the third house, which does describe a
lot about me such as functioning as a copywriter, tendency to freelance, day to day freedom, and travel. The anonymity of authorship ofmuch advertising writing especially when freelancing and perhaps completing or modifying an existing advertising campaign theme could
well suit the expression "ghost writer" which seems to reflect the position of my 8th house Sun, Jupiter, Mercury conjunction in Sagittarius.
I have also been called a resource (how very 8th house) and told I would be added to a stable of writers (how horsey Sagittarian is that?).
I nearly said "Neigh" get someone else (a sense of humour is vital in advertising). You will appreciate why I valued my independence.
Either way Uranus is focal whether as the cutting planet of a bowl, or the partly risen nozzle of a bucket with a wide but still effective
opposition from the conjunction of Sun, Jupiter and Mercury.

Can I ask about relationships SSML? You've a lot focused on the western hemisphere, with only "independent"
Uranus on the eastern hemisphere. You also lack water but have a square between Venus (lord of the 7th) with
Neptune. It's kind of an interesting dyanmic. I'd wonder how you approach relationships or what your thoughts
are on them.
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Krista ShippMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #99 - on: 18.01.2012 at 14:26 [UT] »Thanxs Much Beyond The Stars & SSML...
I can absolutely see 'both sides'... ( even when I don't want to )Will read up on all the types you mentioned...
~~~~This saturn g transit is tough... Just tip a glance at that ASC & N A !!
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #100 - on: 18.01.2012 at 15:12 [UT] »Paul in many ways I am a typical Moon in Libra, especially with it conjunct the descendant. I gravitate torelationship, one on one feels right to me. Yet there is a part of me that can be very independent and
Uranus is attuned to the new and exciting, where the grass looks greener. If I were single I would have noaproblem convincing myself to find a relationship. I would start taking notice of potential female partners.
But I am happy enough and wise enough not to want the complication and deceit of ruining a trusting
relationship. Friendship and mutual caring for each other is a much better basis for a proper relationship than
the thralldom of infatuation, exciting though it may be for a while.
When I was very young I was a hopeless romantic. Venus square Neptune is indicative of infatuation and it
is a powerful aspect in my chart. When I was 18 I fell desperately, hopelessly, in love, not unrequited, butneither was it lasting. When you lose yourself to passion like that you become a hopeless fool, you have little
to offer. I was far too immature for it to work out, and I learned through the pain of lost love to control thaturge to lose myself, which is what happens. Puppy love is unreal. Even now there are occasionally somebeautiful faces, a certain type of smile, that still has the power to stir in me a sense of that youthful
infatuation, as if a particular kind of physical or facial beauty or look is coded into me but I am much older andwiser now and not as vulnerable to my emotional yearnings in that regard. (Lack of water doesn't necessarilymean lack of emotion, rather emotion can be overwhelming or not easily integrated ). I can still feel thepower of it in "that look", but my sense of independence and need to be a free spirit, and not be inemotional servitude is very strong too. (I did not marry that look, I married a person not an image).
In terms of male friends, I have always tended to have a close male friend, with several others as part of
the group. I am heterosexual, I just like having a good buddy, you can have a lot of fun with male friends.
But when I married that changed. There is something about being married that makes it difficult to spend a lotof time with other males. Close mates have to take second place by a country mile. Although I was fortunate
to have some very good working relationships with some art directors that were highlights in my working
life. Working with an art director can be like a marriage of a different kind. Wives get jealous of the closenessof the relationship and the focus being away from them even although there is no real threat to them. Thereis a lot of excitement creating campaigns, the selling of ideas, making advertisements, the stimulation andglamour of it all. The time and attention you give it. And the battles too. And the politics. Of course when it
is all over, like it is for me now, you look back both fondly and with few regrets because it was just an
experience, but it did enable me to buy a house that I still have. So there you have it, Paul. Not all of it, but
enough.
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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #101 - on: 18.01.2012 at 20:41 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 18.01.2012 at 04:44 [UT]:
If the MBT is a good reflection of Jung’s ideas and Jung’s ideas are a good reflection of Astrological ones, or more accurately Greene andCo have grasped Jung (not easy)and found a ‘legitimate’ fit with astrological signs, then Ed ought not to score as a strong E or I and may
in fact fluctuate between them. But, as both lights are in E signs this may favour the E?

INTP. I over E fairly strong. N dominates S. T/F and P/J very close to balanced.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #102 - on: 18.01.2012 at 20:43 [UT] »Quote from Krista Shipp on 18.01.2012 at 05:02 [UT]:Can I get an an answer to above chart structure ?

Thanx
KristaI agree with SSML's assessment of it as a see-saw.
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #103 - on: 18.01.2012 at 22:05 [UT] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 18.01.2012 at 11:00 [UT]:Krista I think you're almost exactly half way between a bowl and a locomotive, despite that empty section through Taurus and Gemini . Of
the two normally ME Jones said it was preferable to be a Locomotive for the dynamic potential .
However I think ME Jones would have described your chart as a seesaw with both Moon and Jupiter opposing planets in the main group.
He does have SeeSaw charts with 2 planets opposing some of the other 8. Here you have 8 within 90 degrees with an opposition to theMoon in the southwest quadrant from Venus (possibly to do with art or beauty expressed in meticulous detail in day to day functioning(Venus in virgo in 3rd) needing to be balanced with public image glamourised in publications (Moon in Pisces in 9th) - of course you could
pick other keywords to express those planets and signs . The second opposition being between Jupiter and Neptune. The Moon is a cutting
planet here; while Uranus is the leading or cutting planet of the main grouping of planets, but as it is so close to Mars you could really say
Uranus Mars are together the cutting planets of the main bunch and this would give you considerable assertiveness although in the 12th so

Posts: 983

somewhat hidden; yet your foreground Jupiter in Aries and Moon ruling Mars Uranus would pick up on the assertiveness and your originality
with Mars Uranus the focal point of a T square, and with your rising Sun at Ascendant also emphasizing your uniqueness or desire to be so.
Swedenborg is an example of a seesaw type with 2 planets separate from the other 8. While ME Jones gives another example as LutherBurbank an American of his era who he describes as the outstanding mediator between the natural and cultivated organism ( planet
grower). He had like yourself Moon and Jupiter as the two separate planets with the other 8 in a tight bundle like yours. (page 101 of
Guide to Horoscope interpretation)
I think for you, you need to think about SeeSaw charts and whether this fits your life. Do you see both sides of issues? It suggests atendency to act at all times unde a consideration of opposing views or through a sensitiveness to contrasting and antagonistic possibilities.

hi, ssml & ed...
i am just curious: when my chart was 'daignosed' as a see-saw, i did some research online and one of the (nowforgotten) links i found said that the oppositions from one side of the chart to the other form an 'hourglass,'
and that any planets outside the hourglass (not enclosed within the oppositions) would act a bit like out-ofbounds planets, renegades, not playing nicely in the sandbox
for me, that was moon (out of bounds at 27.5 N, so no surprise, lol), and also neptune and mars. but in krista's
chart, there seem to be five planets 'out there'... does there come a point where the see-saw doesn't 'work,' ie:it doesn't allow the planets to function or express in the expected 'see-saw' way, because there are just too
many planets not contained within the structure?
i always thought i had a splash, though i can see all five, six or two dozen sides to every issue
again, in case you'd like to take a look. thanks!

... i'll post

~aqua
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Krista ShippMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #104 - on: 18.01.2012 at 23:22 [UT] »Thanx much- ED
Have been reading much on this today..

Ed & SSML must have been adorable in youth...
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Frank

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #105 - on: 19.01.2012 at 01:58 [UT] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 18.01.2012 at 03:06 [UT]:Hi Frank,
I take your points about the simplistic view of hemispheres being say introvert/extrovert.

However ME Jones tends to describe the division of above earth/below earth as being more to do with an objective approach and a
subjective approach. In one of the examples (page 55 Guide to Horoscope Interpretation) he describes someone with planets
predominantly in eastern and above horizon (i.e. South east quadrant) as being able to take conscious control of her destiny (easthemisphere) and that her life is fundamentally lived in an objective or frank and open style (South hemisphere).
In the case of Oliver Cromwell (p62) who had a below horizon bowl ME Jones says his primary concern is getting down a real foundation
for life and reordering the basis of the society in which he finds himself. The orientation of the bowl (leading planet rising - scooping - butbowl horizontal - conserving) shows his capacity for mobilizing and conserving the resources of the puritanical way of life. His battle was
not only for Protestantism and Reformation, but also for the new sovereignty of man; which rests in parliament as representative of thepeople at large and not in the King's person. His influence continues in the living political, religious and cultural manifestation of man's
self responsibility.

Then sure, maybe Jones himself didn't say these things but let's be real here - it's common to see astrology
enthusiasts go around sprouting the nonsense I commented on in my last post. I've literally lost count of how
many times I've seen people take apart a chart and immediately conclude that the person must be an introvert
or extrovert solely based on where most of the planets are.
So looks like the issue here isn't with Jones, but with the questionable reading comprehension of some amateur
astrologers. But then again that's something I've been well-aware of for a long time now.

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Frank
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #106 - on: 19.01.2012 at 02:00 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 18.01.2012 at 04:44 [UT]:
Quote:
Honestly it's too simplistic if you take the time to sit down and think deeply about it.
First off - a lot of the more private houses are in the upper or more 'social' half of the chart. Eighth house is linked to
Pluto, Scorpio, privacy and secrecy, for instance - and the twelfth house, definitely one of the most private and retiring
houses in a chart period, is in the UPPER half as well. So no I really can't side with the broad interpretation that a pileup ofplanets in the upper half of a chart automatically means someone is a raging extrovert.

In late 20th century Psychological Systems the Masculine/Positive Signs are Extrovert and the Feminine/Negative Introvert.
''The general-attitude types, as I have pointed out more than once, are differentiated by their particular attitude to the object. The
introvert's attitude to the object is an abstracting one; at bottom, he is always facing the problem of how libido can be withdrawn from theobject, as though an attempted ascendancy on. The part of the object had to be continually frustrated. The extravert, on the contrary,
maintains a positive relation to the object. To such an extent does he affirm its importance that his subjective attitude is continually beingorientated by, and related to the object'' - JUNG
I don't think Jones was influenced by Jung, which Revilla also suggests on his forum, so if Jones used these descriptions on what basis?
However, going back to the Psychological System houses 1-7 are where the personality is processed and houses 7-12 the result of these
dynamics so it seems coherent for these thinkers to suggest a greater amount of introversion, or subjectivity, is apparent below thehorizon.
The dance, or complexities, here are where a person has planets under the horizon but in the masculine houses.
Using ED’S chart as an example as it fits in nicely here. The idea here would be (ignoring chart shapes for now- which I don’t think fit inwell, or at all, with this system!?) Ed’s ‘fate’ is an exploration of autonomy and personality (1-7) but he will do this with an 'orientation'
towards other people and the outside world, as the lights are in Libra/Sag (Masculine Signs).
If the MBT is a good reflection of Jung’s ideas and Jung’s ideas are a good reflection of Astrological ones, or more accurately Greene andCo have grasped Jung (not easy)and found a ‘legitimate’ fit with astrological signs, then Ed ought not to score as a strong E or I and may
in fact fluctuate between them. But, as both lights are in E signs this may favour the E?

For all your big words, you still aren't very bright.
'Masculine' and 'feminine' aren't used in astrology in a literal, gender-based sense. Nor will you see any
astrologer worth anything, say that a preponderance of planets in masculine signs automatically means
someone is outgoing, or feminine, shy.
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Nixx1234

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #107 - on: 19.01.2012 at 02:50 [UT] »Quote from Frank on 19.01.2012 at 02:00 [UT]:'Masculine' and 'feminine' aren't used in astrology in a literal, gender-based sense. Nor will you see any astrologer worth anything, saythat a preponderance of planets in masculine signs automatically means someone is outgoing, or feminine, shy.

I think you are too advanced for us here Frank. I at least am struggling to unlearn at a pace which meets yourexacting standards. Perhaps you should give some thought to setting up your own school, or releasing some
Master Class DVD's. 'frank Astrology with Frank' has a certain ''je ne sais ne quoi''.

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FrankEx Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #108 - on: 19.01.2012 at 06:31 [UT] »Quote from Nixx1234 on 19.01.2012 at 02:50 [UT]:
Quote from Frank on 19.01.2012 at 02:00 [UT]:'Masculine' and 'feminine' aren't used in astrology in a literal, gender-based sense. Nor will you see any astrologer worth
anything, say that a preponderance of planets in masculine signs automatically means someone is outgoing, or feminine,shy.

I think you are too advanced for us here Frank. I at least am struggling to unlearn at a pace which meets your exacting standards. Perhaps
you should give some thought to setting up your own school, or releasing some Master Class DVD's. 'frank Astrology with Frank' has acertain ''je ne sais ne quoi''.

Cute sarcasm.
Well, not really, but I thought I'd attempt to be nice to you for once, then thought better of it.
You try too hard.
Probably because, you have to.
I don't have that problem.
*pats you on the shoulder* Take care of yourself, and come see me when you actually have an idea what thehell you're talking about when it comes to astrology. Or anything else, for that matter. Til then I have nothingelse to say to you.
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Nixx1234

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #109 - on: 19.01.2012 at 08:22 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 18.01.2012 at 20:41 [UT]:INTP. I over E fairly strong. N dominates S. T/F and P/J very close to balanced.

If Eastern= Action and Western = Reaction, for Jones, then this has a feel of Extravert as Eastern and Introvert
as Western.
Jupiter as a 'Masculine' planet with a focus/cause/gift as the handle/singleton also suggests an extraverted'libidinal' orientation/attitude.
.
I'm pretty sure that the Jung/Greene system would expect, based on your FIRE/AIR emphasis, questions suchas :‘‘You feel involved when watching TV soaps''‘‘You value mercy more than justice''
to be answered as No. So if the MBTI is consistent with this ‘system’ then you should end up as a T, (andprobably a strong one).
The J/P seems less clear, it looks to me as though it is seeking to measure a rational (air/water) versus irrational(fire/earth) mentality. Nothing is hitting me as to why a hemisphere or quadrant emphasis would impact onwhich comes out on top.
Going by Townley's brief descriptions, (Jones book is in an inaccessible box), I think Juan is right to say they arenot (or in his case can't), at least fundamentally, describing what we think of today as Personality type. So
therefore was Jones essentially seeking to explore/explain certain dynamics or 'power points' within this'temperament/type' as opposed to create one with the shapes.
The question then is to what extent would this Missionary Jupiterian idealism, (let’s say, seeking to convince
people a horoscope has a utility without a teleological underpinning), shape the personality. Would it beregardless of Jupiter's house/sign / aspects ‘this Ed’ would remain this hybrid Libran/Sag (1st Quadrant) type,or not. Jupiter is not great here as a ‘thought experiment’ as with a Sag Sun and Sag Mer in the 3rd we canalready find a place or drive for this focus, but less so the missionary/pioneering quality of it perhaps?. (Notthat I experience you here as a pioneering missionary type, but that is a bit by the way)
You wonder what Jones would say if he was beamed down now .
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #110 - on: 19.01.2012 at 08:31 [UT] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 18.01.2012 at 15:12 [UT]:Paul in many ways I am a typical Moon in Libra, especially with it conjunct the descendant. I gravitate to a relationship, one on one feels
right to me. .....etc.

Thanks SSML, that's more than I was hoping for. I have a lot less interest in natal astrology these days, orrather in interpreting other people's charts, I find it more interesting to hear what other people say about theirown lives with the chart there as a reflection. That was really interesting though, so thank you. Seems that 'freespirit' vs 'relationship-oriented' dichotomy is indeed there, but you've clearly managed to work well with it andcome to a balance.
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #111 - on: 19.01.2012 at 09:09 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 18.01.2012 at 20:41 [UT]:
Quote from Nixx1234 on 18.01.2012 at 04:44 [UT]:
If the MBT is a good reflection of Jung’s ideas and Jung’s ideas are a good reflection of Astrological ones, or moreaccurately Greene and Co have grasped Jung (not easy)and found a ‘legitimate’ fit with astrological signs, then Ed ought
not to score as a strong E or I and may in fact fluctuate between them. But, as both lights are in E signs this may favour
the E?

INTP. I over E fairly strong. N dominates S. T/F and P/J very close to balanced.

I think this makes sense. You lack the yin elements in your chart, and, in my experience at least, thoseelements which we lack we often tend to overcompensate for or (consciously or otherwise) focus upon.
For example, you lack earth. Perhaps earthy issues attract your attention: issues to do with the body/health,with money, having a house, food etc. I've noted a lot of earth-lacking types are often worried about health andbody issues, sometimes where there is clearly no foundation for concern. One example, a guy who I know had asore throat, he'd had it for about two days. My mother was talking to him and advised him to just take a throat
spray, or cold and flu tablets etc. or gargle asprin. He said he'd not tried it but was very worried it might bethroat cancer.
It turned out it was just strep throat.
That kind of worrying about health issues can be fairly common, even if not that exaggerated. Though uponlater asking him if he worried about his health he said not really. So perhaps its unconscious. Other more real
struggles with health can also feature of course, particularly those health issues which might be factored down
to poor diet.
On the other hand some of the wealthiest people alive are those with no earth. In another example I read thechart of a woman who was the chief financial officer of a company based in london on a quarter of a million
salary - no earth. But had a tendancy to view the world through financial worth and often seemed to lackbalance about appropriateness. For example she said that they simply couldn't make the figures work andsacked an old man who worked there for about 15 years, close to his retirement. He was on £20k p/y which is
not a huge amount. Having done so and disappointed she needed to, she went shopping and bought a handbag
and shoes that cost £16k.
In another example, one guy needed to save money. They had no money, he woudl complain ad nauseum. So
he decided he needed to save, so he didn't buy some school shirts for his son - they only cost £5. So the son
only had one school shirt which he would have to wash every day or second day. Of course the cost of washingit far exceeded the cost of the shirt in the first place. In the very same week, he was looking after the kids
himself and because he had no food in the house and because the shops were a few miles away he decided he'dsave on the petrol and buy mcdonalds.
Of course your own case may be wildly different to this, but I've seen quite a few no-earth types which fluctuate
somewhere between these extremes. I wonder if you recognise anything of this in yourself? Or if not, ask yourwife/partner/friend if they recognise it. Would be interested in it. Elemental imbalances is one of the first things
I look for in a chart.

PS I lack elements in my own chart, I have little earth (Venus in Taurus) and no fire at all. So this isn't a
criticism or anything, just something I'm genuinely interested in. Elemental lacks seem to play out in often
obvious ways in people's lives.
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #112 - on: 20.01.2012 at 04:12 [UT] »Aquarienne Quote:hi, ssml & ed...
i am just curious: when my chart was 'daignosed' as a see-saw, i did some research online and one of the (now-forgotten) links i foundsaid that the oppositions from one side of the chart to the other form an 'hourglass,' and that any planets outside the hourglass (notenclosed within the oppositions) would act a bit like out-of-bounds planets, renegades, not playing nicely in the sandbox
for me, that was moon (out of bounds at 27.5 N, so no surprise, lol), and also neptune and mars. but in krista's chart, there seem to be
five planets 'out there'... does there come a point where the see-saw doesn't 'work,' ie: it doesn't allow the planets to function or expressin the expected 'see-saw' way, because there are just too many planets not contained within the structure?

ME Jones says the Seesaw ideally will have two unoccupied segments along the line of direct opposition.
Neither empty segment should be less than a sextile and and only one should be that narrow where theplanetary groupings are not directly opposite each other. (Ideally both will be at least a square span each).
The Seesaw is essentially a further refinement of the bucket type temperament. It reveals a less sharpened
but more definite balancing of life emphases at opposing or contrasting points in experience.
The axis of the two groups of planets is defined by a straightline which most nearly marks the midpoints of
the opposed planetary groups. It describes the point of application at its end primarily emphasized by some
focal determinator. If no such emphasis is present, the life tends to be significant at the side of the greaternumber of planets, or sometimes where they are concentrated most closely.
Incidentally ME Jones says on p7 of Guide to horoscope interpretation "Only the ten planets are considered inrecognition of these types" (because they indicate the activity of experience).
For this reason I have redone your chart to get rid of all the extraneous bits and pieces that make it hard toeasily see the chart type. (Can't get rid of the Moon's north node or I would have).
The empty square is not large enough for you to be a Locomotive Type, And although your chart is a little like
Henry 8th pattern -he is a Splay, but I think your chart is not irregular enough to be a Splay type.
You are probably not a Splash either because you have those two gaps although the two grand trines do
counter the seesaw teeter-totter effect and your planets are distributed fairly evenly with only Sun Mercury
close (they usually are) and Pluto Uranus (newer generational planets). You may exhibit a bit of each type,
Splash and Seesaw, so ask yourself do you tend to be identified with more scattered situations with a broad
spread of interests; or more ones where you have to balance contrasting possibilities where you need to takeaccount of opposing views or contrasting and antagonistic possibilities?
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Twelve Moons

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #113 - on: 20.01.2012 at 09:08 [UT] »I was trying to figure out which type mine is but I am not sure either. Ignoring the asteroids I think it could be
a LOCOMOTIVE, with E leading and the B on the other end. Does that look like the right type?

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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #114 - on: 20.01.2012 at 09:29 [UT] »twelve moons,
all those asteroids are distracting, however the leading planet is the Moon. The motion is according to thedaily rising and setting of the planets caused by the earth's rotation, not the their slower movement throughthe signs.
Your pattern is between a Bowl and a Locomotive. Now that Pluto has been demoted to a dwarf planet andCeres elevated from being an asteroid there is a case to include Ceres... in which case Ceres would become
your trailing planet instead of Mars, and it would be a very neat Locomotive. ME Jones suggested
classifying a chart as a Locomotive if possible in such instances . I would be interested to hear Ed Falis' viewof your chart.
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #115 - on: 20.01.2012 at 10:05 [UT] »This is just an interjection - I always seem to be able to "read" the Jones Patterns (sorry BTS) before I draw the
aspect lines into the chart. As with asteroids and such which distract from seeing these patterns, maybe theaspect lines are better left out ?
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7777orMember

Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #116 - on: 20.01.2012 at 12:38 [UT] »What structure would you condsider mine please?

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #117 - on: 20.01.2012 at 13:50 [UT] »Quote from Ed Falis on 16.01.2012 at 18:28 [UT]:
Quote from Catalina on 10.01.2012 at 23:28 [UT]:
Bibbe,Your chart would be considered a bucket with the moon as the handle. Your moon, therefore, is most significant. The
asteroids and nodes should be left out when looking for the chart pattern, according to the astrologers I've read.

Not enough distance between Mo and Ve. Call it an imperfect locomotive instead with Ur as cutting planet.

Thanks, lovely. I´m keeping to this locomotive shape then.
In this perspective it doesn´t change so much the hscope energy as O is so well aspected, which doesn´t meanin GOOD aspects.
Lots of poping in/out which doesn´t mean I sort of loose people, they just are many! And if it´s not me then it
is someone else just poping in... unexpected. Lot of flexibility is needed, I guess, like improvisations because offluctuating circumstanses. Fixed? No, but dependeable, yes.
But locomotives make lot of steam, rightand keeps on roling.

Bibbe
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #118 - on: 20.01.2012 at 21:56 [UT] »Quote from Frank on 19.01.2012 at 01:58 [UT]:
So looks like the issue here isn't with Jones, but with the questionable reading comprehension of some amateur astrologers. But thenagain that's something I've been well-aware of for a long time now.

A number of "professionals" as well.
- Ed
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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #119 - on: 20.01.2012 at 22:08 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.01.2012 at 09:09 [UT]:
Of course your own case may be wildly different to this, but I've seen quite a few no-earth types which fluctuate somewhere between
these extremes. I wonder if you recognise anything of this in yourself? Or if not, ask your wife/partner/friend if they recognise it. Would
be interested in it. Elemental imbalances is one of the first things I look for in a chart.

I've been through a lot of phases with this. When I was a kid, I didn't care about practicalities, except insofar
as using my hands was a sign of competence to myself. I eventually put myself through a few years of kinds ofwork that required me to develop physical competence and attention. Farming for a few years was part of it.
I've always been a snot about money and physical security - at the same time that I set myself up to worry
about it to a fair degree. Grasshopper vs ant as the old story goes. I don't like attending to money andsecurity issues. I make a very decent living and will continue to - until I don't. But for various reasons it's likethe Kip Hanrahan song on Desire Develops an Edge, "Working Class Boys": no matter how much moves
through our hands, none sticks. I grew up a working class boy and haven't yet shed that part of it.
Health hasn't been an issue until I hit my 50's and had a couple of reminders of the limited shelf-life of myimmortality in this form.
- Ed
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Ed Falis
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #120 - on: 20.01.2012 at 22:11 [UT] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 20.01.2012 at 09:29 [UT]:
twelve moons,
all those asteroids are distracting, however the leading planet is the Moon. The motion is according to the daily rising and setting of theplanets caused by the earth's rotation, not the their slower movement through the signs.
Your pattern is between a Bowl and a Locomotive. Now that Pluto has been demoted to a dwarf planet and Ceres elevated from being an
asteroid there is a case to include Ceres... in which case Ceres would become your trailing planet instead of Mars, and it would be a very
neat Locomotive. ME Jones suggested classifying a chart as a Locomotive if possible in such instances . I would be interested to hear Ed
Falis' view of your chart.

I'd go with the locomotive because of the importance of the opposition in the bowl.
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Ed Falis

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #121 - on: 20.01.2012 at 22:12 [UT] »Quote from Shirley Tucker on 20.01.2012 at 12:38 [UT]:
What structure would you condsider mine please?

Classic bundle within 120 degrees.
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Catalina
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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #122 - on: 20.01.2012 at 23:47 [UT] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 17.01.2012 at 01:30 [UT]:Thanks for your comments Catalina, it is always helpful to see a chart with a brief thumbnail sketch of one's job or vocation andcharacteristic life pattern, so we can see how it reflects the chart pattern.
With that bowl segment of your chart being so complete I would imagine you have acquired a lot of knowledge, skills or capabilities thatare expressed through your Jupiter. I have a son with all his planets in a bowl beneath the horizon and he has acquired lots of practicalskills which make him a very useful person to have around the house, and he keeps learning new skills or adding new qualifications of apractical kind all the time such as being a qualified electrician, and taught it at technical college, welding, ability to navigate and qualified
with a mariner's licence (don't know the exact name for it), scuba diving, ability to tie a variety of knots for specific purposes, now plans
aircraft loads and flight paths as a job, and so on...

I've been thinking about your comment for several days, and you are correct that everything is expressed
through my Jupiter...teaching. However, I don't think of myself as having "practical" skills. I can manage"skillfully" enough in my day to day life, but I have so much air in my chart that I am totally consumed byideas. I can't think of any special "skills" I have. And sometimes I can't even do the regular everyday stuff thatmost people take for granted...like putting air in a tire, hooking up AV equipment, sewing, cooking (I can do it,
but it's nothing special.), operating computer software (pretty limited), balancing my checkbook, investing,filling out complicated paperwork, and more. I'm VERY much an airhead in doing what most people find simple
to do. Ideas--that's my world. Not sure if I understood your point properly, so my apologies if this doesn't
make sense.
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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: The Structure of Your Chart« Reply #123 - on: 21.01.2012 at 01:19 [UT] »Thanks for your response Catalina. ME Jones says of the bucket type that "at its best reveals the real
instructor and inspirer of others, and at its worst the agititator and malcontent. In all cases it shows one who
dips into life, and who pours forth the materials of experience with unremitting zeal".
I assumed the below horizon bowl segment of your chartindicated a collecting or containment ofknowledge and acquired skills - the experience that you pour out through the handle planet. Although
your bowl segment lacks a sharp defining opposition across the rim. Mars as the leading or cutting planetof the bowl section should also indicate a tendency in you perhaps to initiate, take the lead in some way -although in Taurus it will be in Taurean ways, more earthy I would have thought (although obviousdly you
are predominantly air with 5 planets in air including the handle Jupiter and Mercury in own sign and Moon inair).. . . Anyway I am interested in your reply as it helps understand how the component parts of a chartpattern express and what weight can be given to them.
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