 EN

Astrodienst Forum Archive
Astrodienst Forum › English Language Area › Discussion: Psychological and General Shopping Cart

 My Astro

24.01.2023 at 17:07 [UT]« Previous topic | Next topic

Astrology»

Pages: 1
zodiac signs and origins. (Read 1163 times)chang*lingMemberzodiac signs and origins.
« on: 21.01.2011 at 12:22 [UT] »as this subject is always in debate and seems to be a seat of contention with many, i have decided it would begood to discuss the possible ways in which the signs have been given meanings. tall order to say the least.
if we can honestly understand how putting outcome of expression against the known configuration then we
could see that research is valuable to determine the duplicable manifestation of a given known, maybe we could
see that the four temperaments can be used as a guide on how this system of signs and meanings came about.

Posts: 3624

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Temperaments
Temperament theory has its roots in the ancient four humors theory. It may have origins in ancient Egypt[1] or
Mesopotamia,[2] but it was the Greek physician Hippocrates (460-370 BC) who developed it into a medical
theory. He believed certain human moods, emotions and behaviors were caused by body fluids (called"humors"): blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm.
http://www.daveshealingnotes.com/pdf/four-temperaments-intro.pdf
the temperaments or humors, taken along with the qualities of the elements, hot, cold, dry and moist, would
delineate the four fixed signs of the zodiac and the morphing of these as progression along the zodiac wheel
would be evident in the making.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism
my question here is, if research of study can determine outcome of a known given, would it not be assumableto understand that the zodiacal signs were treated and given meanings from observations of thesemanifestation in reality?
ps, with view of Vedic and Chinese understandings being of a different sort, then this discussion pertains to the
traditional western scope of astrology only.

Back to top
IP Logged
EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #1 - on: 21.01.2011 at 13:16 [UT] »If you look at the definition of each sign, and look at the condition of the earth at the time of each sign, it iseasy to see where the sign's definitions came from.
When the sun is in Aries, plants are sprouting up, the buds of trees open to become leaves, flowers sprout andblossom.
When the sun is in Taurus, gardening begins in earnest, working the soil, laying out plots, and planting begins.
When the sun is in Gemini gardening is in full swing, and time for other pursuits opens up, children play in thewarmth, time to get out and venture, a time of learning and growth.
When the sun is in Cancer we begin to harvest early crops like peas, cooking and storage become important.. it
Posts: 5489

also begins the dry season as it gets closer to Leo. We call the hottest days of summer dog days because therising of Sirius coincides.
In Leo the days do become shorter, but the heat is full blast.. time to relax enjoy a cool river or lake.
In Virgo we begin harvest.. etc etc. This is part of how the first six are associated with the development of Self.
When the sun is in Virgo glimpses of Fall begin to show, early morning coolness giving way to heat.. like astruggle between the end of one season into another.. (naturally quincunx Aries) We also begin to draw inward
as we ponder the impending cold.. and so it goes through the rest of the zodiac...

Back to top

IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #2 - on: 21.01.2011 at 13:41 [UT] »eyesis, im not sure how you could arrive at the four elements from the growing cycles of plants alone.
weather(rain? as in moist or dry) and temperature(as in hot and cold) must somehow show with cognitive
clarity for the system to be taken on as such. if it were as simple as this then the dispute of 13 signs, a bipolar
chart for the southern hemisphere and all the doubt caused by traditional and psychological astrology would be
non existent. the explanation using time of year and seasons do not suffice to lay to rest the dispute.
what im looking for is clear evidence that can show us how this system was devised. the material written upon
the subject indicates the properties of blood and humor, what ever that pertains to, and is allegorical indescription.
Posts: 3624

Back to top
IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #3 - on: 21.01.2011 at 13:52 [UT] »Galen came up with the concept. Chang*ling, think about where they lived and the climate at the time of eachof the four qualities. In Taurus, the air is soft, comfortable the personality would express an ease.
In Leo the sun is heated strong burning. In Scorpio the rainy season, and in Aquarius cold withdrawn.
I realize it is difficult for modern minds to think in way that people may have before all these conveniences.
Study a little Anthropology. You should be able to correlate.

Posts: 5489
Back to top

IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #4 - on: 21.01.2011 at 14:20 [UT] »i cannot except that environment has influence upon human make up and prevailing ailments that are inherent
within the zodiacal signs themselves. i have lived in both hemispheres independently and have not internalchanged my disposition to temperament. although they do have differing manifestations depending upon social
environmental conditions that are differing within the social structure themselves.
the zodiacal signs are the same no matter where we are born and the ailments that are physically manifest are
the same northern and southern hemisphere, an Aquarius in the southern hemisphere is of the same qualities
as an Aquarius in the northern hemisphere although slightly modified defined by the weather conditions met.
Posts: 3624

there is something that is inherited depending upon the zodiacal sign we are born under and this pertains to
how we outwardly manifest this in contradiction to what we perceive.

Back to top
IP Logged
truegem620

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #5 - on: 21.01.2011 at 16:49 [UT] »Quote:
i cannot except that environment has influence upon human make up

Changling,
The environment has had a great influence on the development of the human.
When it is cold, I cuddle a lot more.
Posts: 4466
Gender:When we relied completely on the land for subsistence (shelter, food, all our needs and requirements), we
worried a lot during the hottest months, we hoarded and put away what food we could lest we be the victims ofdrought. Our life depended on our ability to naturally adjust to the elements.
As above and so below and betwixt them both is our environment.
There is a reason it's called human "nature".
Nature is inherent in all of us. Early humans had this wisdom.

Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #6 - on: 21.01.2011 at 19:53 [UT] »Hi TG!! Good to hear from you! All they had was Nature for their answers. I am sure they looked up in the sky
and saw how people's moods would be during different times of the year. Noting that dispositions seemed tomirror environmental conditions.. then late in the dark of the night and began to associate the "Pictures of theNight" with temperament.
And the four humors are actually represent the four cardinal signs, Aries Robust Cancer Phlegmatic Libra
Sanguine and Capricorn Melancholic. They were also called the four biles. (Noting the correlation to the Liver).

Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #7 - on: 21.01.2011 at 20:15 [UT] »now were making headway.

Posts: 3624
Back to top

IP Logged

truegem620
Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #8 - on: 22.01.2011 at 06:28 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 21.01.2011 at 19:53 [UT]:
Hi TG!! Good to hear from you! All they had was Nature for their answers. I am sure they looked up in the sky and saw how people's
moods would be during different times of the year. Noting that dispositions seemed to mirror environmental conditions.. then late in thedark of the night and began to associate the "Pictures of the Night" with temperament.
And the four humors are actually represent the four cardinal signs, Aries Robust Cancer Phlegmatic Libra Sanguine and Capricorn
Melancholic. They were also called the four biles. (Noting the correlation to the Liver).

Posts: 4466
Gender:My interactions on this site have been quite limited,
it would appear I got lost trying to find sense in an 8thhouse thread. My doctor said he will bleed me tomorrow and by sunday I should have returned with mynormal vigor.
Good to see you as well.
I have often thought the true origins of astrology has its deepest roots in the anthroplogies.

Back to top
IP Logged
Lynne

Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #9 - on: 22.01.2011 at 06:50 [UT] »I often sit around dreaming about how life must have been for our hunter gather ancestors too.
Without 98% of the distractions of modern civilisation they must have had many more opportunities, as well as
time, to observe human personality and interaction in the context of the physical environment. And I don't
think it even needs mentioning that without light pollution or fixed shelters, they would have been extremely
familiar with machinations of the stars above....what else is there to do in warm summer evenings by the fire,
but stare up into the stars and dream.
Tens of thousands of years of observations and experience, passed down in stories and myths throughthousands of generations. Their knowledge must have been vast.
Naturally they would have noticed that children born in early spring were often more selfish and courageous,and kids born in the depth of winter more serious and hard working. Or that those born when Venus was justcoming over the horizon were personable and pleasing in their approach to others....
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #10 - on: 22.01.2011 at 10:56 [UT] »Good Morning, (after noon for the Aussies)
TG, did they use the razor or the leeches??
second house thread ...

Yeah, I don't even go to the eighth house thread, and the OtherI am becoming aware of just how strange I really am.

Lynne, I was blessed to live without electricity for a while. It took about a week to clear the vibration of 60hz
running through my head, but I found out our very environment is the reason for a LOT of Chakra blockage. In
Aussie it is more than likely 50hz. This is the vehicle in which electricity flows.
And you are not that far off at all.
Posts: 5489

In my Psych 220 class, Galen's humors were the first thing we discussed. I definitely referred to Astro concepts
without mentioning Astro. The basis of Psych stems from Galen, and without the blockages I can almost believethat healing was done not just by herbals and such, but with the hands. What was natural then is now
considered supernatural. The Ancients did understand the symmetry between The Universe, Nature andourselves.
As Above So Below.

Back to top
IP Logged
Lynne

Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #11 - on: 22.01.2011 at 11:11 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 22.01.2011 at 10:56 [UT]:
Lynne, I was blessed to live without electricity for a while. It took about a week to clear the vibration of 60hz running through my head,.

Me too! I've lived for several months at a time without electricity and the quietening and inner peace isrevelatory.
That's when I did most of my musings about early man....among other Sagg Moon
meanderings.
I just want to refer to Sunsag's fascinating post (no 73) about the Lascaux Cave artwork and it's inclusion ofastrologically relevant constellations on this thread;
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?lang=e&num=1294996920/60
It seems relevant to the subject we are discussing here....I think?
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #12 - on: 22.01.2011 at 11:29 [UT] »That is a great little piece of conversation and the info SunSag gives is very accurate. You own posting of
the caves (esp. the second shows part of the zodiac belt) What is sad it that one of the posters refused to see
the correlation. The Ancient Egyptians were hunter gatherers also at some point.
Damn it.. they have screwed with Google search. I used to be able to find relevant information.. I was looking
for the first known burial site.. and I get some other garbage of Political Correctness instead...
But any way the first known burial site was found to be more than 30,000 years old. Maybe much older.
Religion evolved from Death, and yes eventually they were smart enough to associate the sky with passage into
the afterlife, and therefore monuments such as the pyramids were created. Sad that some are not capable ofPosts: 5489

seeing the connections.
Thank you for bringing this up..

Back to top
IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #13 - on: 22.01.2011 at 11:32 [UT] »http://cura.free.fr/25avazod.html
i found this.

Posts: 3624
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #14 - on: 22.01.2011 at 16:25 [UT] »Yes and grounds for much debate. I am sure that if I had the time to thoroughly research I could find items tocompletely disagree with her. I also note that she gives absolutely Not one whit of Anthropology for herfindings thereby it is incomplete.
If one is to seek beginnings then one must find the roots.
Astrology in one form or another has been around long before 250BCE.
The most Ancient Egyptians and we could go back to earlier civilizations that were Astrologically aware.
Astrology did not start with the Greeks. I found her dismissal of elemental Astrology a little irksome. I will haveto check out her analysis of the humors later. I am sure I have them somewhere in my notes.
Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Logged
EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #15 - on: 22.01.2011 at 17:53 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 22.01.2011 at 06:50 [UT]:Naturally they would have noticed that children born in early spring were often more selfish and courageous, and kids born in the depth of
winter more serious and hard working. Or that those born when Venus was just coming over the horizon were personable and pleasing intheir approach to others....

Dearest Lynne
We are told though the Zodiac patterns which fed into the design of a Horoscope were built on semantic
mathematical ideals not the way Gemini and Capricorn people evolve into a hindrance rather than advantage.
(Yes I know there are occasional exceptions).
Were an anthropologist to uncover evidence of January and June baby offerings your supposition may have a
few more bones.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS
Back to top

IP Logged

Lynne
Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #16 - on: 23.01.2011 at 01:11 [UT] »Come on EB, I know deep down you love Geminis (in fact, I suspect you are one)....but anyway, I haven't got aclue what you're talking about, and I think I'm in over my head again.
Actually, now I'm wondering what kind of early ideas and beliefs the various ancient cultures did hold about
personality and time of year of birth, and how it would be fascinating to compare them see if we don't findsome similarities.
The Chinese ones seem quite different to western ideas...I think?
Back to top
IP Logged

truegem620

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #17 - on: 23.01.2011 at 02:35 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 22.01.2011 at 06:50 [UT]:
I often sit around dreaming about how life must have been for our hunter gather ancestors too.
Without 98% of the distractions of modern civilisation they must have had many more opportunities, as well as

time, to observe human personality and interaction in the context of the physical environment.
And I don't think it even needs mentioning that without light pollution or fixed shelters, they would have been extremely familiar withmachinations of the stars above....what else is there to do in warm summer evenings by the fire, but stare up into the stars and dream.
Tens of thousands of years of observations and experience, passed down in stories and myths through thousands of generations. Their

Posts: 4466
Gender:knowledge must have been vast.
Naturally they would have noticed that children born in early spring were often more selfish and courageous, and kids born in the depth of
winter more serious and hard working. Or that those born when Venus was just coming over the horizon were personable and pleasing intheir approach to others....

I think it's important to keep in mind that these earlier tribal societies we are talking about would not have thesame ideas/ focus on individualism as we do today in our modern era. This is a frame of reference for our
modern day minds, for which astrology has evolved to suit. These people would have likely been better served
to use these astronomical patterns to observe terrestrial phenomena. Perhaps they made observations basedon a more tangible reality, and with a greater focus on communal well-being.
Humans had not yet been placed at the center of their own universe. If that all makes sense. If not, I'll makeattempt #2.
Back to top

IP Logged

Lynne
Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #18 - on: 23.01.2011 at 02:47 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 23.01.2011 at 02:35 [UT]:
Quote from Lynne on 22.01.2011 at 06:50 [UT]:
I often sit around dreaming about how life must have been for our hunter gather ancestors too.
Without 98% of the distractions of modern civilisation they must have had many more opportunities,

as well as time, to observe human personality and interaction in the context of thephysical environment. And I don't think it even needs mentioning that without light pollution or fixed shelters,
they would have been extremely familiar with machinations of the stars above....what else is there to do in warm summer
evenings by the fire, but stare up into the stars and dream.
Tens of thousands of years of observations and experience, passed down in stories and myths through thousands ofgenerations. Their knowledge must have been vast.
Naturally they would have noticed that children born in early spring were often more selfish and courageous, and kids bornin the depth of winter more serious and hard working. Or that those born when Venus was just coming over the horizon
were personable and pleasing in their approach to others....
I think it's important to keep in mind that these earlier tribal societies we are talking about would not have the same ideas/ focus on
individualism as we do today in our modern era. This is a frame of reference for our modern day minds, for which astrology has evolved
to suit. These people would have likely been better served to use these astronomical patterns to observe terrestrial phenomena. Perhaps
they made observations based on a more tangible reality, and with a greater focus on communal well-being.
Humans had not yet been placed at the center of their own universe. If that all makes sense. If not, I'll make attempt #2.

I totally agree TG.

But that doesn't discount that individuals within the tribe didn't have obvious

personalities and identities of their own.
While writing that, I actually had an image in my mind of the women sitting around shelling nuts (or whatever)watching the kids playing and observing the Aries child bash the Pisces over the head with a club. Thendiscussing how to reign in the Aries to conform more in line with communal group harmony and security....andhow bloody people born during early spring can be such a pain.
Back to top
IP Logged

truegem620

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #19 - on: 23.01.2011 at 04:37 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 23.01.2011 at 02:47 [UT]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 23.01.2011 at 02:35 [UT]:
Quote from Lynne on 22.01.2011 at 06:50 [UT]:
I often sit around dreaming about how life must have been for our hunter gather ancestors too.
Without 98% of the distractions of modern civilisation they must have had many more

opportunities, as well as time, to observe human personality and interactionin the context of the physical environment. And I don't think it even needs mentioning that
Posts: 4466
Gender:without light pollution or fixed shelters, they would have been extremely familiar with machinations of thestars above....what else is there to do in warm summer evenings by the fire, but stare up into the stars anddream.
Tens of thousands of years of observations and experience, passed down in stories and myths throughthousands of generations. Their knowledge must have been vast.
Naturally they would have noticed that children born in early spring were often more selfish and courageous,and kids born in the depth of winter more serious and hard working. Or that those born when Venus was justcoming over the horizon were personable and pleasing in their approach to others....
I think it's important to keep in mind that these earlier tribal societies we are talking about would not have the sameideas/ focus on individualism as we do today in our modern era. This is a frame of reference for our modern day minds,
for which astrology has evolved to suit. These people would have likely been better served to use these astronomicalpatterns to observe terrestrial phenomena. Perhaps they made observations based on a more tangible reality, and with agreater focus on communal well-being.
Humans had not yet been placed at the center of their own universe. If that all makes sense. If not, I'll make attempt #2.

I totally agree TG.

But that doesn't discount that individuals within the tribe didn't have obvious personalities and identities of theirown.
While writing that, I actually had an image in my mind of the women sitting around shelling nuts (or whatever) watching the kids playing
and observing the Aries child bash the Pisces over the head with a club. Then discussing how to reign in the Aries to conform more in linewith communal group harmony and security....and how bloody people born during early spring can be such a pain.

We have a different vision.
Back to top

IP Logged

Lynne
Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #20 - on: 23.01.2011 at 05:02 [UT] »True, and I'm sure yours is probably closer to the facts, since I was sprouting off without putting any thought
into what I was saying.
I really must stop doing that.
« Last Edit: 23.01.2011 at 16:36 [UT] by u60273675 »Back to top

IP Logged
EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #21 - on: 23.01.2011 at 10:38 [UT] »Everything human has a slow evolution attached to it. I realize I went a bit extreme, but I love observing how
things start as one thing, then as understanding expands evolves further until I arrive at what we are today.
As these tribes settled and became agricultural they ended up with time to expand their thoughts. The ancient
Sumerians figured out Algebra, stands to reason that they had a grasp of Astrology. The greatest Astrologers
came out of that region. And this was before Greek Ptolemaic astrology. I am thinking of Arabic Parts as I write
this.
I'm about done with my Final
and this will be a fun thing for me to research. Shame we have no used bookstores anymore.
Posts: 5489

Good Morning to all~I have more thoughts on your posts, and will get back. I am rereading your post TG.
Never hold back your learning experiences Lynne.

Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #22 - on: 23.01.2011 at 12:35 [UT] »Egyptian influence of Ptolemaic Astrology. Looking for information going further back also..
http://www.kepler.edu/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id= 324&Itemid=157

Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Logged

100thMonkey

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #23 - on: 23.01.2011 at 15:53 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 21.01.2011 at 16:49 [UT]:
Quote:
i cannot except that environment has influence upon human make up

Posts: 900

The environment has had a great influence on the development of the human.
When it is cold, I cuddle a lot more.
When we relied completely on the land for subsistence (shelter, food, all our needs and requirements), we worried a lot during the hottest
months, we hoarded and put away what food we could lest we be the victims of drought. Our life depended on our ability to naturally
adjust to the elements.
As above and so below and betwixt them both is our environment.
There is a reason it's called human "nature".
Nature is inherent in all of us. Early humans had this wisdom.

I do accept that the environment/seasons do have an effect on us, but if we connect that change of season withdifferent signs then problems occur when we shift locations and all of us are spread out across the globe taking
this seasonal information from a certain location as ultimate truth wherever we are. Ancient Egypt had different
very seasons and rhythms, ie the flooding of the nile than say europe or the US.
Back to top

IP Logged

EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #24 - on: 23.01.2011 at 16:24 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 23.01.2011 at 01:11 [UT]:Come on EB, I know deep down you love Geminis (in fact, I suspect you are one)....but anyway, I haven't got a clue what you're talking
about, and I think I'm in over my head again.
Actually, now I'm wondering what kind of early ideas and beliefs the various ancient cultures did hold about personality and time of yearof birth, and how it would be fascinating to compare them see if we don't find some similarities.
The Chinese ones seem quite different to western ideas...I think?

Dearest Lynne
I love you, and both my brows are getting fed up with you saying things are over your head, not least as you
are one of the more sensible, thoughtful and intelligent posters here. So pack it in or I will shift into caustic
attack mode and that wig of your's could be an easy target
All I know is when I have asked the question as to what extent perceived behavourial dispostions informed theThema Mundi which gives us these meanings (note Sun in Gemini in 12th maison in 2011 not what it meant in0011), albeit they had been played with before, responses are along the lines of the texts don't suggest they
were much, if any, of a factor. On a scale of information availiable about this in comparison to what I may havebumped into my understanding may be as light and fluffy as an evening with a bag of popcorn best before June
20th. However as my interest in astrology was generated by observation of people this was/is one of the firstquestions I do ask when amongst those who speak the requisite Greek, Latin and older vernaculars.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS
Back to top
IP Logged
100thMonkey

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #25 - on: 23.01.2011 at 17:24 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 23.01.2011 at 10:38 [UT]:Everything human has a slow evolution attached to it.
...

Posts: 900

Good morning to you. I think physical evolution might be slow moving, ideas have fast evolutions attached.
Small things with faster life cycles physically evolve at faster rates.

Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #26 - on: 23.01.2011 at 18:24 [UT] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 23.01.2011 at 17:24 [UT]:
Quote from Eyesis on 23.01.2011 at 10:38 [UT]:Everything human has a slow evolution attached to it.
...
Good morning to you. I think physical evolution might be slow moving, ideas have fast evolutions attached. Small things with faster life
cycles physically evolve at faster rates.

Good seeing you here again 100th.
Posts: 5489

Yes, thought moves at the "speed of Light" metaphorically. I think what

I am finding is that somewhere someone decided to discard Everything from the Past when new things are
figured out... hence the loss of our Roots and the Loss of connection with that reptilian instinctual thing.
Granted we are too intelligent to move around on instinct alone. At the same time and I don't care how lofty
the person(s) perceive themselves to be, we can still smell quite ripe in the morning.
Same goes for Astrology. Everything I have been reading refers back to the stars forcasting weather and how
the crops were going to go that season. Now one could argue about what if someone is born on the equator,
well they may not cold per se, but even gentle climes have their tempers.
Yes, I still seek our roots astro, psycho, and every thing else wise. Like the Arabic parts. That is fascinating.
What impelled some Egyptian Babylonean or Chaldean to figure those out? And I apologize if this is ramble but
I am taking a break from my Final due today.
I am truly happy to see you again.

Back to top
IP Logged
truegem620

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #27 - on: 23.01.2011 at 19:14 [UT] »Quote from 100thMonkey on 23.01.2011 at 15:53 [UT]:

I do accept that the environment/seasons do have an effect on us, but if we connect that change of season with different signs thenproblems occur when we shift locations and all of us are spread out across the globe taking this seasonal information from a certain
location as ultimate truth wherever we are. Ancient Egypt had different very seasons and rhythms, ie the flooding of the nile than say
europe or the US.

Posts: 4466

? This discussion is not an attempt to invent astrology. That has already been done. This is a discussion aboutthat process, from it's most basic and earliest origins.

Gender:What was happening in the US would have been of little consequence to early nomadic peoples in Britain.

Back to top

IP Logged

Lynne
Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #28 - on: 24.01.2011 at 04:26 [UT] »Quote from EYEBROWS on 23.01.2011 at 16:24 [UT]:

Dearest Lynne
I love you, and both my brows are getting fed up with you saying things are over your head, not least as you are one of the moresensible, thoughtful and intelligent posters here. So pack it in or I will shift into caustic attack mode and that wig of your's could be aneasy target
All I know is when I have asked the question as to what extent perceived behavourial dispostions informed the Thema Mundi which gives
us these meanings (note Sun in Gemini in 12th maison in 2011 not what it meant in 0011), albeit they had been played with before,
responses are along the lines of the texts don't suggest they were much, if any, of a factor. On a scale of information availiable about thisin comparison to what I may have bumped into my understanding may be as light and fluffy as an evening with a bag of popcorn best
before June 20th. However as my interest in astrology was generated by observation of people this was/is one of the first questions I do
ask when amongst those who speak the requisite Greek, Latin and older vernaculars.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS

Wig!!

You've cut me to the quick.

Don't you know how vain a Dasc is about her hair? It takes a lot ofwork you know, to get just that right shade of green.
And intelligence isn't enough if you don't use it to learn about a subject before you dive into a discussion on it.
It is, however, enough to work out you are making an idiot of yourself in a public forum, and it's prudent toadmit that, and bow out gracefully.
So what did those Greek/Latin speakers say in answer to your questions then?

Back to top
IP Logged

EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #29 - on: 24.01.2011 at 14:50 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 24.01.2011 at 04:26 [UT]:Wig!!

You've cut me to the quick.

Don't you know how vain a

Dasc is about her hair? It takes a lot of work you know, to get justthat right shade of green.
And intelligence isn't enough if you don't use it to learn about a subject before you dive into a discussion on it. It is, however, enough towork out you are making an idiot of yourself in a public forum, and it's prudent to admit that, and bow out gracefully.
So what did those Greek/Latin speakers say in answer to your questions then?

Dearest Lynne
Your clean and cheeky cheeks would compliment a tall Pink Mohican, so yes some cutting would be requred if
you decided to reverence the Venus rising more.
If you aren't intelligent then a little knowledge is going to be even more dangerous.
I already gave you my sense of it, empiricism was not to the forefront of people's imaginations. I need to ask
this question of those who know more, and probe a lot more, for confirmation.
I would say the gist of it is in those days people were focused on eating, drinking, living and not dying.
Different reality. Self-Actualisation is something of a evolutionary phenomena, it's a luxury in a sense. So
astrology had a different function, in the main, it is was more to do with seeking control over a fated sky.
Whereas now we largely dismiss this idea of fate as something more external to us. It's not that we know we
won't get eaten by a koala bear next week, but realise its unlikely unless we cut ourselves into bite size chunks
cover in vegemite and put oursleves on a plate for the little furry beast to nibble on.
BTW I fell out of love with you overnight, my Venus progressed into Gemini about 3.36am. Did you feelanything ?
Back to top

IP Logged~LeelaEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #30 - on: 24.01.2011 at 15:06 [UT] »When I first read the title of this thread I thought it said "zodiac signs and orgies".
woops, wrong thread!

Back to top
IP Logged
EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #31 - on: 24.01.2011 at 16:47 [UT] »I think Randolph is back with another user name. I see he has his leeches and razor out for letting blood.
No disrespect to traditional astrology, but evolving does mean that new adaptations have been incorporated.
The Ptolemys more than likely stole concepts from Babylonians and Chaldeans. But as many sites I have readsaid, Astrology began with forcasting weather.
Sorry Leela aka Butterflye, no orgies today...

Posts: 5489
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #32 - on: 24.01.2011 at 16:53 [UT] »This is the thread regarding the earliest horoscope.
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1294851556/0#0

Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Logged
VivishaEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #33 - on: 24.01.2011 at 17:04 [UT] »Quote from ~Leela on 24.01.2011 at 15:06 [UT]:When I first read the title of this thread I thought it said "zodiac signs and orgies".

and in you came

Back to top

IP Logged~LeelaEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #34 - on: 24.01.2011 at 17:47 [UT] »Quote from Vivisha on 24.01.2011 at 17:04 [UT]:
Quote from ~Leela on 24.01.2011 at 15:06 [UT]:When I first read the title of this thread I thought it said "zodiac signs and orgies".

and in you cameof course.
Back to top
IP Logged
Darkerhorse

Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #35 - on: 24.01.2011 at 18:00 [UT] »this thread gives me the creeps

Back to top

IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #36 - on: 24.01.2011 at 18:06 [UT] »Quote from Darkerhorse on 24.01.2011 at 18:00 [UT]:
this thread gives me the creeps

you seeing midgets again?

Posts: 3624

Back to top
IP Logged
Lynne

Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #37 - on: 25.01.2011 at 00:47 [UT] »Quote from EYEBROWS on 24.01.2011 at 14:50 [UT]:BTW I fell out of love with you overnight, my Venus progressed into Gemini about 3.36am. Did you feel anything ?

Ohhhh, that's what it was! I thought it was bed bugs.
Ok, back to the orgies now.
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #38 - on: 25.01.2011 at 00:48 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 00:47 [UT]:
Quote from EYEBROWS on 24.01.2011 at 14:50 [UT]:BTW I fell out of love with you overnight, my Venus progressed into Gemini about 3.36am. Did you feel anything ?

Ohhhh, that's what it was! I thought it was bed bugs.
Ok, back to the orgies now.

Posts: 5489

Orgies with midgets??
Back to top
IP Logged

Re: zodiac signs and origins.

Krista ShippMember« Reply #39 - on: 25.01.2011 at 02:33 [UT] »Hmmm...I'm sensing the 'ex' Jehanne around...

MustPluck
Posts: 15841
Gender:K

Back to top

IP Logged

truegem620
Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #40 - on: 25.01.2011 at 03:51 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 23.01.2011 at 05:02 [UT]:
True, and I'm sure yours is probably closer to the facts, since I was sprouting off without putting any thought into what I was saying.
I really must stop doing that.

Well, it’s not exactly like we have tangible facts to paint an exact picture of what our ancient ancestors did or
didn't talk or think about around the camp fire. Though, I think we can be fairly certain they weren't roasting
marshmallows.
Posts: 4466
Gender:

It would seem likely to me that Intent observation of human behavior is a luxury afforded the mind that is notpreoccupied with constant obstacles and survival. Wild animals, unpredictable weather, no permanent shelter,
constant hunt and search for food…I don’t think there is much room to ponder personality in the prehistoric
mind? A brain will be wired to the circumstances of its environment.
Evidently we gain a great deal more from our material comforts than soft sheets.

Back to top
IP Logged
truegem620

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #41 - on: 25.01.2011 at 04:20 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 22.01.2011 at 10:56 [UT]:
TG, did they use the razor or the leeches??
house thread ...

Yeah, I don't even go to the eighth house thread, and the Other second

I am becoming aware of just how strange I really am.

Actually, I think I heard something about some midgets combing bedbugs out of a lovely pair of donatedPosts: 4466
Gender:eyebrows. This must be a new method we are going to try, cause I kept hearing them say there's gonna be awhole lot of sucking going on.
And you are perfectly normal, it's all the others around you that are quite strange.

Back to top

IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #42 - on: 25.01.2011 at 08:58 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 25.01.2011 at 03:51 [UT]:
Well, it’s not exactly like we have tangible facts to paint an exact picture of what our ancient ancestors did or didn't talk or think aboutaround the camp fire. Though, I think we can be fairly certain they weren't roasting marshmallows.
It would seem likely to me that Intent observation of human behavior is a luxury afforded the mind that is not preoccupied with constantobstacles and survival. Wild animals, unpredictable weather, no permanent shelter, constant hunt and search for food…I don’t think there ismuch room to ponder personality in the prehistoric mind? A brain will be wired to the circumstances of its environment.
Evidently we gain a great deal more from our material comforts than soft sheets.

I don't know. I think there might have been time to ponder and observe. Even primate groups have relaxing
periods in their day when they find a safe spot and hang out, groom each other, watch the kids play, andgenerally indulge in social interaction....as social animals do. I've watched them from my hammock manytimes!
Early man in equatorial regions had a year round food supply, and worked together to gather and prepare food.
At a fairly laid back pace, I would imagine, since the climate would dictate that. In more northern regions
summer was a busy period of gathering and preserving food for the colder months. But when the winter came
there wasn't so much to do and perhaps there was a lot more time to spend, telling stories, playing games,
painting the cave walls, or whatever.
I can't imagine why they wouldn't have noticed and wondered about why person A was very competitive, andperson B was very gentle, caring, someone the others came to with their problems. Individuals with leadershipskills would have naturally taken leadership roles...maybe even been expected to because of the time of year
they were born, or because E was just rising when they entered the world?
I don't think it was all tornadoes, tiger attacks and constant hunger. Their intelligence and cooperative skills
were as complex as ours...but with less distractions, and obviously much more concerned with nature and theenvironment.
But as you said before, that's my vision.
Back to top
IP Logged
EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #43 - on: 25.01.2011 at 11:07 [UT] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 25.01.2011 at 04:20 [UT]:
Quote from Eyesis on 22.01.2011 at 10:56 [UT]:

TG, did they use the razor or the leeches??
the Other second house thread ...

Yeah, I don't even go to the eighth house thread, andI am becoming aware of just how strange I really am.

Actually, I think I heard something about some midgets combing bedbugs out of a lovely pair of donated eyebrows. This must be a

Posts: 5489

new method we are going to try, cause I kept hearing them say there's gonna be a whole lot ofsucking going on.
And you are perfectly normal, it's all the others around you that are quite strange.

ROFLMAO!!! I don't think I can top this; too early in the morning...
Lynne in time they started to delve into the stars and Destiny etc. But that came much later. The Astrology of
Liz Greene, et al. didn't come around until the late 1800s.
Back to top

IP Logged

EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #44 - on: 25.01.2011 at 14:59 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 11:07 [UT]:
ROFLMAO!!! I don't think I can top this; too early in the morning...
Lynne in time they started to delve into the stars and Destiny etc. But that came much later. The Astrology of Liz Greene, et al. didn't
come around until the late 1800s.

Dearest Eyesis
I believe you have topped your usual topping prowess here, I lift off my Top Hat to you.
Shock, Horror, Awe ..........so Ms Greene is older, and more 'tradtional' age wise, - than some of thoseignorant, that looks like a long word, or a course, or effort.... so it can't be for me 'fundamentalists' who oft
unwittingly expose their unfamiliar with her actual ideas in the infantile dia-tribes, - imagine her to be.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS
Back to top
IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #45 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:18 [UT] »Quote from EYEBROWS on 25.01.2011 at 14:59 [UT]:
Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 11:07 [UT]:
ROFLMAO!!! I don't think I can top this; too early in the morning...
Lynne in time they started to delve into the stars and Destiny etc. But that came much later. The Astrology of Liz Greene,
et al. didn't come around until the late 1800s.

Dearest Eyesis
I believe you have topped your usual topping prowess here, I lift off my Top Hat to you.
Shock, Horror, Awe ..........so Ms Greene is older, and more 'tradtional' age wise, - than some of those ignorant, that looks like a long
word, or a course, or effort.... so it can't be for me 'fundamentalists' who oft unwittingly expose their unfamiliar with her actual ideas in
the infantile dia-tribes, - imagine her to be.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS

Have you been knocking back a few too many of those Pink Mohicans, BB < (that's my little nickname for you,short for BrowBeater). I can't make any sense out of this at all? Is it code?
Eyesis, I know that personality centred astrology is a recent invention, coming about at around the same timethat literacy filtered down to the common man.
My thinking was that links might have been made much earlier than we know, pre-written history. Once we got
smart enough to invent writing, it was only the priestly aristocracy who were literate, and they were concernedwith more important things, like politics and philosophy, and hoarding all the resources for themselves....sothats what got left for posterity.
We don't really know what stories and conversations housewives and farmers were getting, having and handing
down back then, do we?
Or maybe we do, and I just don't know....

Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #46 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:32 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 21.01.2011 at 19:53 [UT]:
Hi TG!! Good to hear from you! All they had was Nature for their answers. I am sure they looked up in the sky and saw how people's
moods would be during different times of the year. Noting that dispositions seemed to mirror environmental conditions.. then late in thedark of the night and began to associate the "Pictures of the Night" with temperament.
And the four humors are actually represent the four cardinal signs, Aries Robust Cancer Phlegmatic Libra Sanguine and Capricorn
Melancholic. They were also called the four biles. (Noting the correlation to the Liver).

Posts: 5489

Lynne just a little refresher... I realize you may be all caught up in EYEBROWS...
Yes I note the change inyour posts after he entered into the conversation. Not trying to pin you, but simply an observation. Trust me I
have not forgotten some of the ugliness from last year with Randolph and a few others.

Back to top
IP Logged
Lynne

Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #47 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:44 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 15:32 [UT]:
Quote from Eyesis on 21.01.2011 at 19:53 [UT]:
Hi TG!! Good to hear from you! All they had was Nature for their answers. I am sure they looked up in the sky and saw
how people's moods would be during different times of the year. Noting that dispositions seemed to mirror environmental
conditions.. then late in the dark of the night and began to associate the "Pictures of the Night" with temperament.
And the four humors are actually represent the four cardinal signs, Aries Robust Cancer Phlegmatic Libra Sanguine andCapricorn Melancholic. They were also called the four biles. (Noting the correlation to the Liver).

Lynne just a little refresher... I realize you may be all caught up in EYEBROWS...

Yes I note the change in your posts after he enteredinto the conversation. Not trying to pin you, but simply an observation. Trust me I have not forgotten some of the ugliness from last yearwith Randolph and a few others.

Yes, I confess I'm a complete sucker for anyone who can make me laugh out loud.
And I like it even better if they can prod me out of my mental jadedness....not many can.
Back to top

IP Logged

Apostrophe
Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #48 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:47 [UT] »Quote from chang*ling on 21.01.2011 at 14:20 [UT]:
i cannot except that environment has influence upon human make up and prevailing ailments that are inherent within the zodiacal signs
themselves. i have lived in both hemispheres independently and have not internal changed my disposition to temperament. although they
do have differing manifestations depending upon social environmental conditions that are differing within the social structure themselves.
the zodiacal signs are the same no matter where we are born and the ailments that are physically manifest are the same northern andsouthern hemisphere, an Aquarius in the southern hemisphere is of the same qualities as an Aquarius in the northern hemisphere althoughslightly modified defined by the weather conditions met.
there is something that is inherited depending upon the zodiacal sign we are born under and this pertains to how we outwardly manifest
this in contradiction to what we perceive.

Posts: 2454

Has anyone here investigated Epigenetics:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
I saw this Nova program on TV which showed examples of how the environment can change the way that ourgenes are expressed. They showed examples of twin humans and mice raised in different environments.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/epigenetics.html
And then there is that recent experiment that I've cited several times on other threads about how season ofbirth affects biological clocks:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205202510.htm
The scientific evidence seems to be pointing to what the ancients deduced from ball-park observation, and as
Eyesis noted on page 1 of this thread:
Quote:
If you look at the definition of each sign, and look at the condition of the earth at the time of each sign, it is easy to see where the sign's
definitions came from.
When the sun is in Aries, plants are sprouting up, the buds of trees open to become leaves, flowers sprout and blossom.
When the sun is in Taurus, gardening begins in earnest, working the soil, laying out plots, and planting begins.
When the sun is in Gemini gardening is in full swing, and time for other pursuits opens up, children play in the warmth, time to get out
and venture, a time of learning and growth.
When the sun is in Cancer we begin to harvest early crops like peas, cooking and storage become important.. it also begins the dry season
as it gets closer to Leo. We call the hottest days of summer dog days because the rising of Sirius coincides.
In Leo the days do become shorter, but the heat is full blast.. time to relax enjoy a cool river or lake.
In Virgo we begin harvest.. etc etc. This is part of how the first six are associated with the development of Self. When the sun is in Virgo
glimpses of Fall begin to show, early morning coolness giving way to heat.. like a struggle between the end of one season into another..
(naturally quincunx Aries) We also begin to draw inward as we ponder the impending cold.. and so it goes through the rest of the zodiac...

If personality really is conditioned by the seasons, either in the mother's womb or epigenetically after birth,then it would make sense that personality would be different according to the Hemisphere we were born in. As
suggested on another thread, maybe the "sameness" that people see in different hemisphere sign attributes are
simply Confirmation Bias - we see what we want to see based on our pre-conceived (occult/mythical) beliefs.
Back to top
IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #49 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:52 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 15:18 [UT]:
Quote from EYEBROWS on 25.01.2011 at 14:59 [UT]:
Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 11:07 [UT]:
ROFLMAO!!! I don't think I can top this; too early in the morning...
Lynne in time they started to delve into the stars and Destiny etc. But that came much later. The Astrology
of Liz Greene, et al. didn't come around until the late 1800s.

Dearest Eyesis

Posts: 5489

I believe you have topped your usual topping prowess here, I lift off my Top Hat to you.
Shock, Horror, Awe ..........so Ms Greene is older, and more 'tradtional' age wise, - than some of those ignorant, that looks
like a long word, or a course, or effort.... so it can't be for me 'fundamentalists' who oft unwittingly expose theirunfamiliar with her actual ideas in the infantile dia-tribes, - imagine her to be.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS

Have you been knocking back a few too many of those Pink Mohicans, BB < (that's my little nickname for you, short for BrowBeater).

I can't make any sense out of this at all? Is it code?
Eyesis, I know that personality centred astrology is a recent invention, coming about at around the same time that literacy filtered down
to the common man.
My thinking was that links might have been made much earlier than we know, pre-written history. Once we got smart enough to invent
writing, it was only the priestly aristocracy who were literate, and they were concerned with more important things, like politics andphilosophy, and hoarding all the resources for themselves....so thats what got left for posterity.
We don't really know what stories and conversations housewives and farmers were getting, having and handing down back then, do we?
Or maybe we do, and I just don't know....

So what was the purpose of this when you can see where I quoted myself that I was the one who broached this.
Maybe you should read the thread again.. because I don't see the humor at all.
Back to top

IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #50 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:54 [UT] »Quote from realworld on 25.01.2011 at 15:47 [UT]:
And then there is that recent experiment that I've cited several times on other threads about how season of birth affects biological clocks:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205202510.htm
The scientific evidence seems to be pointing to what the ancients deduced from ball-park observation, and as Eyesis noted on page 1 ofthis thread:my living in both hemispheres long enough to find a distinct correlation between Leo suns born both sides ofPosts: 3624

the equatorial line. it makes no difference to "pride" if born in the winter of the southern hemisphere than thesummer of the northern one. even though pride is a quality that can be expressed by all zodiacal signs at one
time or other, this prevalent persuasiveness inherent within the Leo sun is always present.

Back to top
IP Logged~LeelaEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #51 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:57 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 00:48 [UT]:
Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 00:47 [UT]:
Quote from EYEBROWS on 24.01.2011 at 14:50 [UT]:BTW I fell out of love with you overnight, my Venus progressed into Gemini about 3.36am. Did you feelanything ?

Ohhhh, that's what it was! I thought it was bed bugs.
Ok, back to the orgies now.

Orgies with midgets??

This gave me hope, but alas it went nowhere from here. *sigh*Back to top

IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #52 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:59 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 15:52 [UT]:
So what was the purpose of this when you can see where I quoted myself that I was the one who broached this. Maybe you should readthe thread again.. because I don't see the humor at all.

No, no. Sorry, you were right, relax. I was all caught up with BB, and not paying proper attention to the thread.
Apologies.
Back to top
IP Logged
EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #53 - on: 25.01.2011 at 15:59 [UT] »RealWorld, I didn't see your post until I had addressed a potential issues. Excellent thoughts which I would liketo expound upon a bit later. Thank you.

Posts: 5489
Back to top

IP Logged

Lynne
Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #54 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:00 [UT] »Quote from ~Leela on 25.01.2011 at 15:57 [UT]:
Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 00:48 [UT]:
Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 00:47 [UT]:
Quote from EYEBROWS on 24.01.2011 at 14:50 [UT]:BTW I fell out of love with you overnight, my Venus progressed into Gemini about 3.36am. Did
you feel anything ?

Ohhhh, that's what it was! I thought it was bed bugs.
Ok, back to the orgies now.

Orgies with midgets??

This gave me hope, but alas it went nowhere from here. *sigh*Back to top
IP Logged
Apostrophe

Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #55 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:01 [UT] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.01.2011 at 15:54 [UT]:
Quote from realworld on 25.01.2011 at 15:47 [UT]:
And then there is that recent experiment that I've cited several times on other threads about how season of birth affects
biological clocks:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205202510.htm
The scientific evidence seems to be pointing to what the ancients deduced from ball-park observation, and as Eyesis noted

Posts: 2454

on page 1 of this thread:my living in both hemispheres long enough to find a distinct correlation between Leo suns born both sides of the equatorial line. it makes
no difference to "pride" if born in the winter of the southern hemisphere than the summer of the northern one. even though pride is aquality that can be expressed by all zodiacal signs at one time or other, this prevalent persuasiveness inherent within the Leo sun is always
present.

But have you ever considered that the "Leos" that you are observing are simply acting like N.Hemisphere Leosare supposed to act, because that is what they have been told that they ought to be like in astrology books orby friends and family?
As noted on the "how has astrology helped you in a practical way" thread, it is the power of suggestion which is
the real mover and shaker in our consciousness. This has been known since Biblical times - "thy faith has madeye whole" (not an exact quote) - or touching the hem of Jesus' garment. It's our beliefs that give us power.
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #56 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:01 [UT] »Lynne~..

Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Logged
EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #57 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:25 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 15:18 [UT]:Have you been knocking back a few too many of those Pink Mohicans, BB < (that's my little nickname for you, short for BrowBeater).

I can't make any sense out of this at all? Is it code?

Dearest Dirty Girl
Just some banter with our make it up as you go along friend here, and her aging of Ms Greene.
Incidentally as you seem a little stuck with this. Of course our ancestors were wired to gossip and the daily,
isn't she a right one and isn't he a piece of work, as we are. My point to you earlier is that the daily chats aboutothers motivations and inner urges were not leading factors in the construction of Horoscopic astrology,
according to my understanding of the early texts.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #58 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:35 [UT] »Are those bedbugs in those Brows or could they be some other microcritter Randolph... geez it was reallypleasant when you were gone.. remember where insults got you before. Those who refuse to remember the
past are condemned to relive it..

Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Logged
Lynne

Ex Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #59 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:39 [UT] »Quote from EYEBROWS on 25.01.2011 at 16:25 [UT]:
Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 15:18 [UT]:Have you been knocking back a few too many of those Pink Mohicans, BB < (that's my little nickname for you, short for
BrowBeater). I can't make any sense out of this at all? Is it code?

Dearest Dirty Girl
Just some banter with our make it up as you go along friend here, and her aging of Ms Greene.
Incidentally as you seem a little stuck with this. Of course our ancestors were wired to gossip and the daily, isn't she a right one and isn't
he a piece of work, as we are. My point to you earlier is that the daily chats about others motivations and inner urges were not leading
factors in the construction of Horoscopic astrology, according to my understanding of the early texts.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS

So what were the leading factors in the construction of horoscopic astrology, according to your understandingof the early texts?
Actually I shouldn't be leading you on. I won't be around for a few days to read your answers....goingwalkabout.
Well actually, more like layabout.
Back to top

IP Logged

chang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #60 - on: 25.01.2011 at 16:40 [UT] »Quote from realworld on 25.01.2011 at 16:01 [UT]:
But have you ever considered that the "Leos" that you are observing are simply acting like N.Hemisphere Leos are supposed to act,
because that is what they have been told that they ought to be like in astrology books or by friends and family?

no. i really mean the trait of being proud. again with Gemini, the split between fancy and ideas are very muchprevalent in Gemini both north and southern hemisphere. these personality traits are typical of these signs. thisis not suggestive but the information being a screen to see if it fits with the reality presented.
Posts: 3624

do you act the way you do,because you read it in a book or heard on the tv. maybe to some extent these media
sources change our moral and ethical conduct, but not underlying traits.
Back to top
IP Logged
VivishaEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #61 - on: 25.01.2011 at 22:51 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 25.01.2011 at 16:35 [UT]:
Are those bedbugs in those Brows or could they be some other microcritter Randolph... geez it was really pleasant when you were gone..
remember where insults got you before. Those who refuse to remember the past are condemned to relive it..

Good! when's your next 12 hour sabbatical?
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #62 - on: 26.01.2011 at 00:34 [UT] »Actually I will delete the last post... not worth commenting on..
It is the ugly distractions that take away from a good discussion. RealWorld brought in some wonderful
information which I will bring into this page.. I found the links very informative.

Posts: 5489

Back to top
IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #63 - on: 26.01.2011 at 00:38 [UT] »Quote from realworld on 25.01.2011 at 15:47 [UT]:
Quote from chang*ling on 21.01.2011 at 14:20 [UT]:
i cannot except that environment has influence upon human make up and prevailing ailments that are inherent within thezodiacal signs themselves. i have lived in both hemispheres independently and have not internal changed my disposition totemperament. although they do have differing manifestations depending upon social environmental conditions that are
differing within the social structure themselves.
the zodiacal signs are the same no matter where we are born and the ailments that are physically manifest are the same
northern and southern hemisphere, an Aquarius in the southern hemisphere is of the same qualities as an Aquarius in thenorthern hemisphere although slightly modified defined by the weather conditions met.

Posts: 5489

there is something that is inherited depending upon the zodiacal sign we are born under and this pertains to how we
outwardly manifest this in contradiction to what we perceive.

Has anyone here investigated Epigenetics:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
I saw this Nova program on TV which showed examples of how the environment can change the way that our genes are expressed. They
showed examples of twin humans and mice raised in different environments.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/epigenetics.html
And then there is that recent experiment that I've cited several times on other threads about how season of birth affects biological clocks:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205202510.htm
The scientific evidence seems to be pointing to what the ancients deduced from ball-park observation, and as Eyesis noted on page 1 ofthis thread:
Quote:
If you look at the definition of each sign, and look at the condition of the earth at the time of each sign, it is easy to see
where the sign's definitions came from.
When the sun is in Aries, plants are sprouting up, the buds of trees open to become leaves, flowers sprout and blossom.
When the sun is in Taurus, gardening begins in earnest, working the soil, laying out plots, and planting begins.
When the sun is in Gemini gardening is in full swing, and time for other pursuits opens up, children play in the warmth,
time to get out and venture, a time of learning and growth.
When the sun is in Cancer we begin to harvest early crops like peas, cooking and storage become important.. it also begins
the dry season as it gets closer to Leo. We call the hottest days of summer dog days because the rising of Sirius coincides.
In Leo the days do become shorter, but the heat is full blast.. time to relax enjoy a cool river or lake.
In Virgo we begin harvest.. etc etc. This is part of how the first six are associated with the development of Self. When thesun is in Virgo glimpses of Fall begin to show, early morning coolness giving way to heat.. like a struggle between the endof one season into another.. (naturally quincunx Aries) We also begin to draw inward as we ponder the impending cold..
and so it goes through the rest of the zodiac...

If personality really is conditioned by the seasons, either in the mother's womb or epigenetically after birth, then it would make sense that
personality would be different according to the Hemisphere we were born in. As suggested on another thread, maybe the "sameness" thatpeople see in different hemisphere sign attributes are simply Confirmation Bias - we see what we want to see based on our pre-conceived(occult/mythical) beliefs.

Bringing this to the forefront.
Back to top

IP Logged

EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #64 - on: 26.01.2011 at 01:33 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 25.01.2011 at 16:39 [UT]:
So what were the leading factors in the construction of horoscopic astrology, according to your understanding of the early texts?
Actually I shouldn't be leading you on. I won't be around for a few days to read your answers....going walkabout.
Well actually, more like layabout.

Dearest Lynne
Lazy and dirty, not an enticing combination. Unless the first refers to your mind and you play the willing Sheila.
Whilst you recline I suggest you study this, it won't give you the specific answers you crave but it will provide
some context and enable us to have a high brow conversation about it one day, maybe. ?
http://www.iep.utm.edu/astr-hel/

Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS
Back to top
IP Logged
EYEBROWSEx Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #65 - on: 26.01.2011 at 01:40 [UT] »Dearest Vivisha
Born on a sabbath day. We aren't faced with a joining the rational world anytime soon pathology here.
Warmest Regards
EYEBROWS

Back to top

IP Logged

Apostrophe
Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #66 - on: 26.01.2011 at 01:40 [UT] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.01.2011 at 16:40 [UT]:
Quote from realworld on 25.01.2011 at 16:01 [UT]:
But have you ever considered that the "Leos" that you are observing are simply acting like N.Hemisphere Leos aresupposed to act, because that is what they have been told that they ought to be like in astrology books or by friends andfamily?

no. i really mean the trait of being proud. again with Gemini, the split between fancy and ideas are very much prevalent in Gemini both

Posts: 2454

north and southern hemisphere. these personality traits are typical of these signs. this is not suggestive but the information being a screen
to see if it fits with the reality presented.

Thanks Eyesis for reviving the previous train of thought. OK Chang*ling; let me offer one more argument forreversed S. Hemisphere signs, and that is to counter your observations above with the question - were they forpeople born not far below the Equator, in the "tropics", between the Equator and the Tropic of Capricorn?
If so, then what you might be happening is that these people would share both sides of a proposed 6 "bipolar"
sign Zodiac, the signs being Aries-Libra, Taurus-Scorpio, Gemini-Sag. etc. The further North or South a person
is born, the more polarized they are towards one end of these proposed dual signs. A person born on the
Equator would have equal weightings of both polarities.
As you can see from this map,
http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/imagee.htm
the only people who would have true S. Hemisphere charts would be those born in the bottom half of SouthAmerica, South Africa (the state) and Southern Australia.
Quote:
do you act the way you do,because you read it in a book or heard on the tv. maybe to some extent these media sources change our moral
and ethical conduct, but not underlying traits.

I think that it's probably both. If your observations above were of "Tropical" people, they might have been bornwith bi-polar astrological signs but learned to identify with the Northern one due to cultural input.
But that's just my idea, and of course it could all be a fantasy. Hopefully more scientific evidence - which in thecase of psychology would probably be a proper personality inventories which measured traits that astrologers
associate with Zodiac signs will shed more light on this, and solve a problem that I think Ptolemy would haveaddressed if he had seen a map of the world today.
Back to top
IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #67 - on: 26.01.2011 at 10:32 [UT] »yes i see. the axis between signs.
as reference, it is england Ireland and Sweden my reference to northern hemisphere and southern africa for thepolar opposite.
my sisters are used as reference Pisces and Gemini sun, both born in the northern hemisphere, but now
permanently residing in the southern hemisphere. a couple of good friends from the southern hemisphere arealso within the constructs of this.
there are many people that live within the tropical zone. what would this bipolar zodiac do for them?
Posts: 3624
Back to top

IP Logged

EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #68 - on: 26.01.2011 at 13:13 [UT] »RealWorld, one of your links prior seem to substantiate at least a little of what you speak of in regard toscientific confirmation.
"It's important to emphasize that, even though this sounds a bit like astrology, it is not: it's seasonal
biology!" McMahon added. from RW's Science Daily link. and I will add that it may be.

Posts: 5489

And I was not familiar with epigenetics but it does fit very well with concepts I had pondered in the past. I am
wondering if at some point if there is continued exposure something would become DNA passed down.. I love it
because this may fly in the face that alcoholism and addiction are passed down.
I am trying to process genetic adaptation with this. I know of a family that for generations were thieves androgues. There was a break and evidently newer generations had fallen away from their bad habits. Until the lasttwo generations. Although they were raised in "good" homes, parents were hard working, some of the children
adopted the earlier generation's love of crime. I do know members of this family and little was spoken of theearlier generation's behavior as if to erase them from memory.
The Moon and the Eighth house are representative of our Roots (4th) and what we inherit (8th) including
genetic information.

Back to top
IP Logged
EnigmeMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #69 - on: 26.01.2011 at 13:15 [UT] »RealWorld, could you please bring in the link regarding the bipolar zodiac? I read it in another thread and foundit fascinating.
Thank you. I am currently studying Psychology and I may want to use your links in regard to
my references.

Posts: 5489
Back to top

IP Logged

Apostrophe
Member

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #70 - on: 26.01.2011 at 21:08 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 26.01.2011 at 13:15 [UT]:
RealWorld, could you please bring in the link regarding the bipolar zodiac?

This is my Angelfire page about it:
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/alchemy/astrology/bipolarzodiac.html
Posts: 2454

which contains many of the links that I have cited in other posts (Douglas McMahon, Dane Rudhyar, epigeneticsetc). Please excuse the "pop up" adverts - it is a free website that I have had for over 10 years and have justbeen too lazy to upgrade.
Chang*ling: If your observations about no change in characteristics between N and S. Hemisphere Zodiac
signs can be repeated and validated by some sort of scientific test, then this would override the seasonalobservations made in mice, and support the theory that some sort of influence is coming from theconstellations, or segments of sky named after them. It all gets back to the old arguments between theSidereal and Tropical approach. Do we think that it is the light/electromagnetic energy/gravity/magnetism fromstars that influence life on earth, or the those variables coming from the Sun?

Back to top
IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: zodiac signs and origins.
« Reply #71 - on: 26.01.2011 at 21:42 [UT] »Quote from realworld on 26.01.2011 at 21:08 [UT]:. Do we think that it is the light/electromagnetic energy/gravity/magnetism from stars that influence life on earth, or the those variables
coming from the Sun?

if all of the universe is a super structure that has radiation and magnetic flux, inherent in all its matter, evenwhen invisible to our detection, it has a cohesion that one can understand. the whole universe is mappable andis quite fixed in its being. if one sub structure changes, everything changes on some level simultaneously. this is
Posts: 3624

seen with the eye with a star exploding although the changes are almost impercievable. the planets in our solar
system are long lived compared to the human lifespan, even to the lifespan of known creatures and such,
stretching as far back as coming from our suns own creation.
our planets have been rediscovered, using science and physics, as if it were the first time we had known about
them. we can now see, the planets behave in certain ways, even Uranus spinning on its side, and these correlate
to something that echoes within astrology itself. the orbs can be seen as the magnetic field, the poles of theplanets are the same as the poles of our earth and even these get mention in ancient texts. the mythology of
Greece and Rome, Persia, Egyptians, Mayans, Incas, the Hindus, the Chinese etc,etc, all have a system that is
astrology based and there are parallels running through all of them.
with the evidence and the time frame, along with religious texts and fashion upon earth. we seem to befollowing something that was known about before our time, but forgotten. there are many intricacies that areembedded in the astrological system, that it shows there are laws, principles and aspects that are all part of agovernance, that if looked at long enough, one could even correlate a system of laws pertaining to humansocial conditioning. the kabbalastic system is the bases of western laws. Abram.
to come back to the sun in your question. it is true that the sun is central to our beings living within the solar
system itself. no matter what planet we could find ourselves, but it is the combination of all the planets, stars
and galaxies that we are influenced by, this includes our shining star.
mice are fed carrots till they get sick and have cancer in the stomach organ. this means that carrots cause
cancer. the problem with this research, is we are not mice and if we ate the same body weight ratio amountthat was forced to a mouse, we would create hell for the lab coats performing such experiments. i doubt if thetechnicians care about "personality" traits in the guinea pig trials.

Back to top

IP Logged
Pages: 1

Astrodienst Forum › English Language Area › Discussion: Psychological and General« Previous topic | Next topic

Astrology»=> Discussion: Psychological and General Astrology

Go