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Do we really have a choice? (Read 799 times)

Mojoloco
MemberDo we really have a choice?
« on: 11.10.2011 at 00:53 [UT+1] »Do we have a choice or are we bound by the stars. I've seen transits over the course of my life and could see
how everything played out. I've heard that it is possible to control up through saturn but not past. Everythingfeels like fate. Like a pebble in the water where everything effects the future but that pebble was meant to be
dropped at that time and place. Can you change fate? If its already written do we have free will. Or does it justseem like we do? I like to think so.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #1 - on: 11.10.2011 at 00:54 [UT+1] »I think we definitely, definitely have free will, that we aren't destined to do or be anything we don't want to.

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Muh Wamie
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #2 - on: 11.10.2011 at 01:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Mojoloco on 11.10.2011 at 00:53 [UT+1]:
Do we have a choice or are we bound by the stars. I've seen transits over the course of my life and could see how everything played out.
I've heard that it is possible to control up through saturn but not past. Everything feels like fate. Like a pebble in the water where
everything effects the future but that pebble was meant to be dropped at that time and place. Can you change fate? If its already written
do we have free will. Or does it just seem like we do? I like to think so.

Well, there are some things in life:
I mean I sure as hell did not ask to be moved in 5 countries because of war from 0-10 years old but at the endof the day in all that chaos I live a relatively pleasant life and I don't take life for granted thanks to myexperience. Furthermore, these changes helped me realize how "lucky" I was. I was hiding under damn beds at
11:00pm in my own country with bullets flying in the neighborhood!
We always made the choice to leave early..
(Left 2 months after my birth and the civil war broke out- we left thanks to his job--good thinking ahead dad GkpA tha)
However, that didn't leave us sad and shaken at all: when it was done we would turn the radio back on, eat,chat, laugh.
I take what happens in stride and tell myself it shouldn't dictate how I feel about life. If you have faith in yourability to change your current position then you do have a choice because you look for options and little bylittle you create your own path.

Astrology wise: I take it with a bowl of salt.
Of course: if you can't sing to save your life and you want to sell a record: erm. I have a friend who singsreally well but she's shy I think she'd make a wonderful entertainer but that's her choice so I respect it. People
just flock to her it's crazy!
There are some things we can't change though- or at least not change them to reach the desired results.
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venusinlibra

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #3 - on: 11.10.2011 at 01:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Mojoloco on 11.10.2011 at 00:53 [UT+1]:
Do we have a choice or are we bound by the stars. I've seen transits over the course of my life and could see how everything played out.
I've heard that it is possible to control up through saturn but not past. Everything feels like fate. Like a pebble in the water where
everything effects the future but that pebble was meant to be dropped at that time and place. Can you change fate? If its already written
do we have free will. Or does it just seem like we do? I like to think so.

Hi Mojoloco
I will follow this thread since I always think about this and I don't know the answer.My instincts say that we
Posts: 964
Gender:have a free will,other wise it doesn't make sense,are we robots?
But then I think about my past,well,what did I control in my life actually?
I believe in karma and if a person pays his/her karma earlier,than maybe things may get better in their life.I'm ai B.I want to think positive.
And no still have no answer for you but,I want to believe we have this choice to change our fate.True or not?If
not,it doesn't fit my image of God I believe in,that's all..
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #4 - on: 11.10.2011 at 01:30 [UT+1] »Hi Mojoloco, I'm certain I have a choice. I can choose to make my wife feel great or bad simply by the way I
talk to her and appreciate her. I can affect the people I work with by my manner, and the way my boss
responds to me by my efforts and attitude at work. I can change the way I feel by going for a walk or run
and doing exercise and getting some sun. I can even turn myself from a couch potato to an athlete ofsorts though I'll never give Usain Bolt any sleepless nights. I can conquer some of my doubts or fears by
exposing myself to situations that test me until little by little I get better equipped to meet them. I could
even choose to post an answer to your question. I mightn't get everything I want or wish for, but I cancertainly maximise my potential and get much more than I might have thought possible in my gloomier
moments.
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venusinlibra

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #5 - on: 11.10.2011 at 01:35 [UT+1] »Hahahayou have a similar answer at the same time from a Ag/Bi and Ai/Bg

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Mojoloco
Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #6 - on: 11.10.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1] »I suppose it really doesn't matter. Since I've been learning astrology it has changed me a lot. Or maybe its justbeen pluto doing its work on my moon at 4 cancer and sun at 6 cap. It doesnt matter if its all set in stone ornot. We can choose. The funny thing is that its like someone. (A higher power) already knows what we will
choose. If you know astrology you cannot deny the existance of a higher power because it is all so perfectly laidout it amazes me.

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PlutotrineMars

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #7 - on: 11.10.2011 at 02:13 [UT+1] »I go through the same thought process back and forth.. I basically feel that astrology influences themes thatwill happen in your life.. it introduces these themes/lessons, but what you get from it and what you do with it is
up to you. This is not directly related, but I love this quote, from Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter
Posts: 1948
Gender:"It is not our abilities that shows us who we really are. It is our choices"
Actually, if you have never gotten into the Harry Potter series, I recommend it. The story provides a wonderful
illustration of this very question right here. At the end Harry Potter finds out that there is a prophecy about his
life, and even discovers that he will die young if he faces his destiny. Even so he faces his challenge withcourage and the unexpected happens. You see lots of allusions to this theme throughout the series, with othercharacters as well. I am sure you will enjoy the story... especially if you can see these themes playing out. It
gets better as the series gets to the end.

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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #8 - on: 11.10.2011 at 03:28 [UT+1] »As SunSagMoonLibra said, the way we act and the way we speak and the way we behave are things we havecontrol over.
Good and bad luck (and yes, there are such things) we have no control over.

Posts: 17033

Good decisions and bad decisions we have control over.
Genetics we have no control over.
We make thousands of choices every week which are within our power.
We have no control over earth changes.
So, basically, we have a great deal of control of free will over OUR OWN LIVES.
We can TRY to control what others do and feel but in truth, we cannot.
If someone else is self-destructive, we can't "do" anything to fix them. We can offer to help, we can try tointervene, but each person is the INDRA of his/her own life.
The IMPORTANT THING IS ALWAYS the following:
Accept the things one cannot change,
have the courage to change that which we can,and have the wisdom to know the difference.
(the above is the "serenity prayer, abridged.)
For me, and for most people, the RAZOR'S EDGE is in the KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE>
THAT is the big challenge.
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Mojoloco

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #9 - on: 11.10.2011 at 03:29 [UT+1] »Choices...thats what its all about. I second guess myself too often. I'm always too concerned with making theright choice. I wonder how things would go if I just used my instincts always. I need to get a book on
developing a quick intuition. I know I have it with all of that cancer in me and my sagg mars but my cap
mercury and sun want to plan everything out strategically. I just have such a hard time feeling what is right orwrong for me sometimes. (12th house moon) and I think too much

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PlutotrineMars
Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #10 - on: 11.10.2011 at 05:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Mojoloco on 11.10.2011 at 03:29 [UT+1]:
Choices...thats what its all about. I second guess myself too often. I'm always too concerned with making the right choice. I wonder how
things would go if I just used my instincts always. I need to get a book on developing a quick intuition. I know I have it with all of thatcancer in me and my sagg mars but my cap mercury and sun want to plan everything out strategically. I just have such a hard time
feeling what is right or wrong for me sometimes. (12th house moon) and I think too much

Posts: 1948
Gender:Ohh me too, me too. In my case it causes me to not be able to make any decisions.. I have lived a lot of thepast few years in limbo because of it. Sometimes you just have to do it. I think we Caps know what we haveto do, it's the afterthoughts that get in the way. It takes courage to be able to go with what we feel we shoulddo.
It's funny my old room mate and friend that I mentioned that has the same Birthday as you also has a 12thhouse moon...
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #11 - on: 11.10.2011 at 15:49 [UT+1] »We absolutely have free will!
I am in the spiritual camp that believes in reincarnation and, also that between lives, we work with our spiritual
guides to formulate "plans" for our next incarnation. I believe that a lot of our "fated" events and "fated"
relationships, were ones that we chose before we incarnated in this lifetime. That said, I believe many of usdeviate from our spiritual plans because we make poor choices or take the easy road.
Also, I've begun to see astrology and our natals, progressions, solar arcs, transits, eclipses, etc... as a kind of
Cosmic Clock ticking....

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Let me back up a minute... so, yes, we all have free will and choice but, we also all know that we weren't allborn with the talent to be opera singers, prima ballerinas, rocket scientists, or pro atheletes, right? We have towork within the definitions and boundaries of what we are given (hence the natal chart).
But, each choice we make also expands OR contracts our own natal boundaries. I've come to view the transits,
progressions, and solar arcs, etc as "windows of opportunity"... wherein our free will and choices can help tocreate greater (or lesser) choices in the future. I believe when we make poor choices, we ultimately start"limiting" our lives and our futures. The karmic hammer so-to-speak comes down harder the next time a hardtransit from Saturn or Pluto comes around. If we make good, responsible chocies during our Saturn and Plutotrines and sextiles, etc, then when the squares and oppositions come around, they arent so bad... because of
our past choices.
I think that people who have little self-awareness (and astrology certainly helps us gain greater self-awareness)
and who make poor choices for a long period of time, will certainly feel victimized and as if Fate has dealt thema crappy hand. We empower ourselves through our good choices and by fulfilling the spiritual roles that are
defined for us in our natal charts.
Anyway, this is just my OWN personal spiritual take on the whole thing. Blame it on my 9th House Moon or my
Neptune conjunct my Sagittarius Ascendant. It might not resonate for everyone and that's OK!

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Michelle
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #12 - on: 11.10.2011 at 16:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Mojoloco on 11.10.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1]:
I suppose it really doesn't matter. Since I've been learning astrology it has changed me a lot. Or maybe its just been pluto doing its workon my moon at 4 cancer and sun at 6 cap. It doesnt matter if its all set in stone or not. We can choose. The funny thing is that its likesomeone. (A higher power) already knows what we will choose. If you know astrology you cannot deny the existance of a higher power
because it is all so perfectly laid out it amazes me.

I'm with you, Mojoloco. There are some things we can control, and there are some things that are out of ourhands. We can control ourselves to a lot of extent, we can control our thoughts and our actions, but not thoseof others, and others' actions can certainly affect us on many levels. On another level, the Universe is very wellordered and organized. There's a Higher Power with omniscence that knows the number of hairs on each of ourheads, that knows everything about each of us, why we're here, what our purpose is, why we're placed where
we are, and that ultimately determines when we've finished our earthly existence. When our time is up, that's
it. We can control this to some extent by the way we take care of ourselves physically and emotionally and by
the choices we make. I find when there are accidents, oftentimes it's due to our poor judgment, but certainly
not always.
ETA: Juliet, we posted at the same time. I also agree with you.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #13 - on: 11.10.2011 at 16:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Mojoloco on 11.10.2011 at 00:53 [UT+1]:
Do we have a choice or are we bound by the stars.

Emphasis mine.
Whoever said this was an either or debate. Why not both?
This is how I actually approach astrology, it's not that we EITHER have free will OR things are fated, instead it isboth.
We both have free will and there are things fated as well.
To put it another way, we have some free will, but it is not without boundaries and limitations and scope.
This is obvious.
Somone may be born blind and deaf - this is not as result of their choices - this was fated for them, they had
no say in the matter.
Similarly other things occur and other situations arise over which we have no control.
Our control, our free will, ONLY rests in how we react to those situations.
For example it may be 'fated' that your relationship will end. What's not fated is how you handle it.
It may be 'fated' that your motehr dies when you're 21. How you deal with it is not.
Certain things WILL happen and they happen outside of the remit of our idea of personal control or free will.
Our use of free will, although present, is actually extremely limited and really in many situations only extends
to how we react to smoething else, that something else being soemthing beyond our control.
Hence it's not an either or situation, at least not for me. It's a BOTH situation.
But this idea has been explored for millennia - the arguments for and against really have not advanced one bit
since the hellenistic period, really we're no closer to solving some of life's and astrology's biggest questions.
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TorgnyEx Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #14 - on: 11.10.2011 at 16:37 [UT+1] »Astology assures that there are some influences in our life. It also make some events happen in our life. This is
as far as I can understand fate, and there is nothing that we can do about about it. We have to accept thatsome events will enter our life. However, what we can choose is how we react to what happens to us in life. Do
we react in a constructive manner - for example to we try to face a problem or do we try to escape from it?
And the decisions we make now and our reactions to what happens to us will create our future. What will
happen in the future is very much dependent upon how we act today, the values and attitudes we have today.
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #15 - on: 11.10.2011 at 16:40 [UT+1] »TorgnyIt seems we pretty much think along the same lines.
I'd also add that a lot of what appears fated to us is actually resultant of previous choices made lessconsciously.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #16 - on: 11.10.2011 at 17:00 [UT+1] »Too much Cancerian energy usually means people make emotional choices rather than practical ones.
OR
They make the choices that they think are EXPECTED of them....or that they think their parents would havemade.
Posts: 17033

One way to make choices is to make lists. They are VERY practical. One column - the PROS and one column
the CONS.
And then, of course, the is the ever present "VALUES" issue. Make a choice according to YOUR OWN desires
and needs. Then, if the outcome is not what you expected, at least you made an "authentic" decision.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #17 - on: 11.10.2011 at 17:11 [UT+1] »In addition to this discussion is the neo-platonic idea of the division of souls which finds a correlate in themodern new age concept of 'evolution' or 'consciousness raising' - namely that the more conscious you are theless fated astrology is.
This needs reiterating really - the more self aware and conscious or "closer to the divine" you are, the less pull
astrology will have namely because you attach more to the 'upper' soul (per neo-platonic thought, mimicked inkaballah also) - the more you attach to your lower souls, the mroe of a pull that astrology will have over yourlife.
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #18 - on: 11.10.2011 at 18:14 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 11.10.2011 at 16:40 [UT+1]:

I'd also add that a lot of what appears fated to us is actually resultant of previous choices made less consciously.

First case: recently a man in his 30s, who had never been on a plane because he was afraid of flying, wasoffered a job up north - he would have to fly to get there. He'd been out of work for some time and reallyneeded the job, so he took it, knowing it would mean he'd have to fly. He told his wife he was scared, but heknew it was the right thing to do. Everyone agreed with him, and reassured him that flying was the safest way
to travel.
Well, he got on the plane, and not too long afterwards it crashed; he was killed, along with everyone else on
board except for three people.
Second case: about thirty years ago a woman in Quebec City who was afraid of flying had consequently made it
into her 50s without ever having been on a plane. Her children finally convinced her, one freezing rotten winter,that she was being silly - they paid for her to take a nice vacation in Mexico or someplace warm like that, telling
her that flying was the safest way to travel - look at all the people who do it, every day.
Yup - the plane had only just taken off when it crashed; the woman was killed, along with everyone else, I
believe. But she was definitely killed; I remember reading that her daughter who had taken her in to the
airport hadn't even left yet - the plane crashed RIGHT after take-off.
Now - these two people had both made the choice to get on those planes, despite being afraid, but they didn't
choose to die. That was fate.
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #19 - on: 11.10.2011 at 19:26 [UT+1] »Yes, Pamela, but....they chose NOT to listen to their authentic "inner voices". They allowed "others" to maketheir decisions for them. that is NEVER a good idea whether in a life and death situation or in any situation.

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Many years ago when I was restoring my living room, I couldn't make a decision on the pattern of my sofa. I
put it off and put it off. I knew eventually I would make a decsion I was happy with. But everyone around me
kept nagging me and consequently I chose what I thought was a pattern and color I liked.
I have always hated the thing. And it was not an item I could afford to just change. Other demands kept mefrom recovering it, and year by year I just live with a choice that I was forced into. This is a mundane andunimportant (in the vast scheme of things) issue, but the CORE is the same. When you allow OTHERS thepower over your choices you are in trouble.
By the way, I am one of those who has the fear of flying.
One of my 2 daughters moved across the country to California a few years ago because her partner comes fromthere. She likes the climate and is happy there. She now has 2 children and the only time I get to see them iswhen they come here.
After all the years of knowing about my phobia, she actually began to debate with me about flying out there.
And it isn't just fear of MY death....when anyone I love gets on a plane I don't sleep until I hear from them.
She has been to many countries in Europe and many places in this hemisphere and Hawaii, and she has NO
fear. She just doesn't understand mine.
But I know I will never fly....unless, of course, there is a miracle and my phobia evaporates.....
On the flip side, I love dogs and have been bitten a few times, once by a very big German Shepherd on thearm. These events never lessened my love of dogs. GO FIGURE.
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #20 - on: 11.10.2011 at 20:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 11.10.2011 at 19:26 [UT+1]:
Yes, Pamela, but....they chose NOT to listen to their authentic "inner voices". They allowed "others" to make their decisions for them. thatis NEVER a good idea whether in a life and death situation or in any situation.
LainieWell, Lainie, I agree with you that it's not a good idea to let others make your decisions for you - but I don't
know if that's what happened in the two examples I gave. The man I mentioned first decided on his own that
he really must take that job, and doing so necessitated getting on that plane; others may have tried toreassure him that he was doing the right thing, but the actual decision was made by him alone. And it
definitely would have seemed like the right thing to do, the responsible thing - putting your fear aside anddoing what was required in order to feed your family.
And the woman, too - she had undoubtedly always wanted to go have a nice vacation in the wintertime, andeveryone else was always doing it and coming home with suntans, all relaxed and refreshed; it must haveseemed very silly to let a seemingly baseless fear prevent her from doing the same. I don't think it was somuch a matter of her being talked into it by others, as of talking herself into it.
Whatever, both of these cases seemed to me to be prime examples of fate at work. Maybe they particularly
resonated with me because I'm afraid of flying too, though I have done it a number of times, but I whiteknuckle it every time.
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IP Loggedbonsai_tree

Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #21 - on: 11.10.2011 at 21:02 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 11.10.2011 at 16:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from Mojoloco on 11.10.2011 at 00:53 [UT+1]:
Do we have a choice or are we bound by the stars.

Emphasis mine.
Whoever said this was an either or debate. Why not both?
This is how I actually approach astrology, it's not that we EITHER have free will OR things are fated, instead it is both.
We both have free will and there are things fated as well.
To put it another way, we have some free will, but it is not without boundaries and limitations and scope.
This is obvious.
Somone may be born blind and deaf - this is not as result of their choices - this was fated for them, they had no say in the matter.
Similarly other things occur and other situations arise over which we have no control.
Our control, our free will, ONLY rests in how we react to those situations.
For example it may be 'fated' that your relationship will end. What's not fated is how you handle it.
It may be 'fated' that your motehr dies when you're 21. How you deal with it is not.
Certain things WILL happen and they happen outside of the remit of our idea of personal control or free will. Our use of free will, although
present, is actually extremely limited and really in many situations only extends to how we react to smoething else, that something else
being soemthing beyond our control.
Hence it's not an either or situation, at least not for me. It's a BOTH situation.

Agree with the idea that we have free will to an extent, especially in how you handle things and the means bywhich you deal with events in life, but many events seem fated/pre-destined.
Perhaps as human beings, we consider ourselves rational and logical, and want to believe that we have ultimate
control and free will? Llooking back on things that have happened in my own life, it feels as though they werealways going to happen at some point anyway; my choices just altered the manner in which they occurred,maybe? I've not got all that many events to reflect on though, so would be curious to see how it all pans out!
:s And this is only one personal opinion... but will follow this thread with interest, it's a question that's cropped
up a few times this year now, thanks OP for asking it
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rishimanglesh
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #22 - on: 11.10.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1] »Very good discussion.
I used to think the same before I learnt Astrology. But while studying Jyotish from classical Vedic text, I really
understood that I have free will and I could even measure it astrologically. Let me give my views here :1). To INITIATE -> To be measured by COURAGE. The more the Courage -> bigger the EFFORT. We ALWAYS
have free will to become a CREATOR/INITIATOR of any task/form/thought/action irrespective of possible
REACTIONS to it.
Why? Because even for GOD to resist you... you have to INITIATE something at least.
If there is nothing from you then YOU DON'T EXIST and then what could STARS do if you don't exist.
2). To RESIST -> We ALWAYS have free will to RESIST to anything or everything irrespective of SUFFERINGS
we could have due to this.
Why? We always have a choice of YES or NO in each and every aspect of our life. If situation forces you to go
for YES, than you could anytime choose NO or if same situation forces you NO.. you could choose YES.
Even GOD can't give you happiness if you want to choose suffering. We could choose to be ignorant for all our
life.
3). KARMA - The Action. If you have free will to INITIATE/CREATE and RESIST then you definitively have free
will to ACT irrespective of RESULTS of your actions.
Why? Only ACTION is the form of materializing the free will. If you want to put in an effort or resistance .. whatelse we could do? Only ACT accordingly4). EXPANSION - The results of your ACTIONS - For each ACTION, there has to be a REACTION. And every
REACTION will in turn become a new ACTION and this triggers the CHAIN REACTION of our Karma irrespectiveof GOOD or BAD. Thus, myself becomes a world in itself.
Thus, merely with your COURAGE and CHOICE, we create our own WORLD. This is our FREE WILL.
However, we don't have free will to choose the :1). The EXISTENCE - If I exists then everything else EXISTS.
2). The INTELLIGENCE - Intelligence regulate the EFFORT.
3). The LUCK/DESTINY - Our luck help us make the right CHOICE.
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IP Loggedrishimanglesh

Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #23 - on: 11.10.2011 at 21:58 [UT+1] »Astrologically,
3rd house - For courage/ effort / Initiation
6th house - Competition/ fight / struggle (disease)10th house - Karma / profession
11th house - Expansion / Income / Success
These are called "Upachaya" houses in Sanskrit or growing houses in general
Good to have malefics to further expansion/success
1st house - existence
5th house - intelligence
9th house - luck
They are auspicious houses. known as "Trikona" or Trines.
Good to have benefics here to provide easy growth/success in life
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #24 - on: 11.10.2011 at 22:01 [UT+1] »to be or not to be is the greatest choice we are given.

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Bill...

Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #25 - on: 11.10.2011 at 22:51 [UT+1] »I have enjoyed this thread. Wow.
Here's a "to be or not to be" skit. Not quite fate versus free will, more editor versus bard... Hugh Laurie andRowan Atkinson. If you haven't seen it. It's been on the web a long time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwbB6B0cQs4
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MorgenStern
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #26 - on: 11.10.2011 at 23:54 [UT+1] »it starts to get a bit astrological, then I want to throw in, that the lights connected to the axis or in 1-10-4-7
are strongly people who have the power to direct (over their life), while chartowners of weak lights are more
drawn to get directed.
also strong AC ruler or placements. and planets above the horizon.
and the thing how you handle it, it is said to be seen in the 9th house.

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MorgenStern

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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #27 - on: 11.10.2011 at 23:57 [UT+1] »rishimanglesh, like your contribution

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PlutotrineMars
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #28 - on: 12.10.2011 at 02:34 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 11.10.2011 at 22:01 [UT+1]:
to be or not to be is the greatest choice we are given.

Posts: 1948

Interesting response! I like it

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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #29 - on: 12.10.2011 at 08:51 [UT+1] »Quote from MorgenStern on 11.10.2011 at 23:57 [UT+1]:
rishimanglesh, like your contribution

Thank you. Even your interpretation of squares is so relevant in this regard.
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rishimanglesh
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #30 - on: 12.10.2011 at 09:37 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 11.10.2011 at 22:01 [UT+1]:
to be or not to be is the greatest choice we are given.

Very interesting. One of my favorite topic..
But my take is .. We don't have choice of NOT TO BE !!
TO BE is free will because you are free to make a CHOICE.
TO BE - What you are.
To make a choice YOU HAVE TO BE. If YOU ARE then how could you NOT TO BE.
For example - I am "A"
NOT TO BE - What you are not.
If you are "NOT TO BE" then again TO MAKE A CHOICE .. you have TO BE !!! And if YOU ARE then how could
also NOT TO BE at the same time as we say A as A, not everything else A
Again, if I am "A" then I am not B to Z. If I could choose TO BE "B" then I am neither "A" or "B" but I am
SOMETHING ELSE who COULD/ACT be A to Z as he DESIRES/WANTS.
To conclude.. "YOU ARE" as long as you have a CHOICE..
CHOICE of what? TO BE
To be? you DESIRE
Satisfy Desire ? you ACT.
You Act ? Will have EFFECTS
Effects? themselves causes more ACTS and the more EFFECTS.
Now What I am .. I am EFFECT of my previous ACTIONS
Why I am .. because I DESIRE to be
My free will .. I COULD CHOOSE and thus continue CAUSE and EFFECT of my ACTION
Is it possible that I NOT TO BE .. If you cease your DESIRES/WANTS then you don't have to make a CHOICE. If
you DON'T MAKE A CHOICE then you won't require an ACTION. If no ACTION then you just experience theEffects of previous Actions. If you are through it YOU DON'T EXIST and one with Spirit
Now hold on.. don't make a choice .. otherwise welcome to the hell again..
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #31 - on: 12.10.2011 at 19:26 [UT+1] »Quote from rishimanglesh on 11.10.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
However, we don't have free will to choose the :1). The EXISTENCE - If I exists then everything else EXISTS.
2). The INTELLIGENCE - Intelligence regulate the EFFORT.
3). The LUCK/DESTINY - Our luck help us make the right CHOICE.

Are luck and destiny not two different things? I'd consider luck to be fortunate circumstances that aid you, but
destiny is something that's pre-determined and inevitable that happens. Although the second definition
depends on whether you believe we have free will or not in the first place, to alter the course of life!
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #32 - on: 12.10.2011 at 19:41 [UT+1] »Quote from rishimanglesh on 12.10.2011 at 09:37 [UT+1]:
But my take is .. We don't have choice of NOT TO BE !!
TO BE is free will because you are free to make a CHOICE.
TO BE - What you are.
To make a choice YOU HAVE TO BE. If YOU ARE then how could you NOT TO BE.

my point is that people can choose to reverse the effects of free will, (or deny the tree of knowledge in favour
Posts: 3624

of the tree of life,) and become part of the universal mind or they can choose to use their free will for perverse
purposes. this is the only choice that really counts.

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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #33 - on: 12.10.2011 at 20:11 [UT+1] »I believe we do have choices within the frames of our charts. Referring back to the post that mentioned two
people who were afraid of flyong and finally gave in and died of plane crash: I believe it was written in theircharts. A certain natal aspect, or transit can be acted out a billion different ways, within the frames of a certain
planet's or aspect's symbology. And the Universe doesn't really care if we live or die, if a lesson is learned.
So the choice is basically in what level do we want to live out our chart. Do we succumb under a G or J
transit to a personal planet or understand the deeper meaning?
Recently I've come across a lot of people who lost a close family member at their G return. Me too. But is it
necessary? I bet not everyone of us has such a memory. That's why astrology is a big challenge, because we
don't know on what level, in what kind of event will a certain aspect manifest. But when it happens, it's quite
easy to identify which planet was in action.
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Linda Harris
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #34 - on: 13.10.2011 at 00:20 [UT+1] »" Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #25 - on: Yesterday at 22:51 [UT+0] »Posts: 17033

I have enjoyed this thread. Wow.

Here's a "to be or not to be" skit. Not quite fate versus free will, more editor versus bard... Hugh Laurie andRowan Atkinson. If you haven't seen it. It's been on the web a long time."
NEVER saw this.....hysterical.....adding it to my faves.

(show biz, huh?)

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Marle

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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #35 - on: 13.10.2011 at 12:02 [UT+1] »I think that at least 1 out of 3 people on a plane are very afraid of flying, and there are millions up there in thesky nowadays every single minute. Most people fly because they have to, or they think they have to.
The only way to know if Fate exists is to predict the Future in a constant way. There are many things in
predictions (like in Horary, for example) that make it look like Fate exists. But also, and at the same time, we
can also observe how many of those predictions are based on feelings and thoughts of the moment, like a
Higher Intelligence understanding subtleties and undertones in a much deeper way than any human brain
could. The moment the feelings or thoughts change, the predictions change.
Every time we try to play God with predictions, there comes a moment, after analysing a linear argument in
time, when we have to ask ourselves "Am I tricking the Universe, or is the Universe tricking me?"Back to top

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Jen J.
Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #36 - on: 13.10.2011 at 14:35 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 11.10.2011 at 01:30 [UT+1]:
Hi Mojoloco, I'm certain I have a choice. I can choose to make my wife feel great or bad simply by the way I talk to her and appreciate
her. I can affect the people I work with by my manner, and the way my boss responds to me by my efforts and attitude at work. I canchange the way I feel by going for a walk or run and doing exercise and getting some sun. I can even turn myself from a couch potato to
an athlete of sorts though I'll never give Usain Bolt any sleepless nights. I can conquer some of my doubts or fears by exposing myself tosituations that test me until little by little I get better equipped to meet them. I could even choose to post an answer to your question. I
mightn't get everything I want or wish for, but I can certainly maximise my potential and get much more than I might have thoughtpossible in my gloomier moments.

Posts: 4286

And I wish the world had millions more men like you!! .... or at least, that my planets will have me on course
for one of them!!
WOW!
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Re: Do we really have a choice?

Jen J.

Member« Reply #37 - on: 13.10.2011 at 15:13 [UT+1] »Quote from rishimanglesh on 11.10.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:...........
Why? We always have a choice of YES or NO in each and every aspect of our life. If situation forces you to go for YES, than you could
anytime choose NO or if same situation forces you NO.. you could choose YES.
.....

Posts: 4286

A computer programmer is very familiar with 1/0, YES/NO when programming.
I have an idea that this is pretty much what goes on with our wiring, not different to that of our ''own''
creation, the PC in which the outcome always depends on whether the selection is 1 or 0, or YES or NO. So....
similarly, our program was created by our ''programmer''.
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Re: Do we really have a choice?

Michelle
Ex Member« Reply #38 - on: 13.10.2011 at 15:16 [UT+1] »I have a friend who flies a lot and had a bad feeling about this one flight, and rescheduled it. The plane crashedin the Everglades. No survivors.
Another friend and her new husband went on a nighttime flight with a pilot not certified to fly at night. They
crashed. The pilot and her husband died. My friend has had over 30 surgeries, but is still horribly scarred. All
because they didn't use good judgment.
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100thMonkey

Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #39 - on: 13.10.2011 at 16:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Jen J. on 13.10.2011 at 15:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from rishimanglesh on 11.10.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:...........

Posts: 900

Why? We always have a choice of YES or NO in each and every aspect of our life. If situation forces you to go for YES,
than you could anytime choose NO or if same situation forces you NO.. you could choose YES.
.....

A computer programmer is very familiar with 1/0, YES/NO when programming.
I have an idea that this is pretty much what goes on with our wiring, not different to that of our ''own'' creation, the PC in which theoutcome always depends on whether the selection is 1 or 0, or YES or NO. So.... similarly, our program was created by our''programmer''.

You forgot to program in, maybe...
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Re: Do we really have a choice?

MariaMGF
Ex Member« Reply #40 - on: 13.10.2011 at 18:00 [UT+1] »My own well researched take on this subject is that;
1. Some things are destined to happen to us.
2. Some things are destined to maybe happen to us.
3. Some things are destined to never happen to us.
Outside of this, I believe we have the possibility of millions of sub-fates which are constantly being re-writtenby the second; by our thoughts, our actions and our feelings. To be more in control of 'our' fate we need tounderstand and be more in control of all of these.
M
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MarleEx Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #41 - on: 13.10.2011 at 19:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 13.10.2011 at 15:16 [UT+1]:
I have a friend who flies a lot and had a bad feeling about this one flight, and rescheduled it. The plane crashed in the Everglades. No
survivors.

I see this as a better example of predicting Fate. I believe it possible that someone can feel weird about a trip
and decide not to take it. And you say that person flies a lot.
Of course the others could be afraid with some kind of "prediction", but I am also sure lots of people are reallyscared to fly and nothing happens to them.
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Michelle
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Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #42 - on: 13.10.2011 at 19:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Marle on 13.10.2011 at 19:39 [UT+1]:...but I am also sure lots of people are really scared to fly and nothing happens to them.

That's so true!
After my friend's accident and spending much time in the hospital with her, I became terrifed to fly for many
years and had to do a lot of inner work to release that fear (H12 iNN).
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IP Loggedrishimanglesh

Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #43 - on: 13.10.2011 at 22:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Jen J. on 13.10.2011 at 15:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from rishimanglesh on 11.10.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:...........
Why? We always have a choice of YES or NO in each and every aspect of our life. If situation forces you to go for YES,
than you could anytime choose NO or if same situation forces you NO.. you could choose YES.
.....

A computer programmer is very familiar with 1/0, YES/NO when programming.
I have an idea that this is pretty much what goes on with our wiring, not different to that of our ''own'' creation, the PC in which theoutcome always depends on whether the selection is 1 or 0, or YES or NO. So.... similarly, our program was created by our''programmer''.

We are our own programmers. We write for ourselves to PERFORM. That's why have to choose either 0 or 1.
And we keep on looping and processing as per choices we made.
If you are referring to God's program, 0 and 1 are irrelevant. Even you could decide not to make a choice andcease to exit. But whatever you choose, you are still the same for him.
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IP Loggedrishimanglesh
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #44 - on: 13.10.2011 at 23:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 13.10.2011 at 15:16 [UT+1]:
I have a friend who flies a lot and had a bad feeling about this one flight, and rescheduled it. The plane crashed in the Everglades. No
survivors.
Another friend and her new husband went on a nighttime flight with a pilot not certified to fly at night. They crashed. The pilot and herhusband died. My friend has had over 30 surgeries, but is still horribly scarred. All because they didn't use good judgment.

Death is ultimate truth and everyone will die one day. So, how could we link fate to death so comfortably. Only
"time" could be related to death.
Fate doesn't lead to death but death happens. Death ends fate. But fate don't see death because fate exist's aslong as we have a life. Can we talk about fate after death when we can't even describe death?
Fate, good or bad is an environment/opportunities to perform our actions to fulfill our desires. Notice, when weare not interested, does environment good or bad matters? So, fate exists as long as we have to do something
to get something out of it.
In life management terms, fate just decide life's productivity with regard to our Karma.

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rishimanglesh

Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #45 - on: 13.10.2011 at 23:38 [UT+1] »Quote from bonsai_tree on 12.10.2011 at 19:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from rishimanglesh on 11.10.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
However, we don't have free will to choose the :1). The EXISTENCE - If I exists then everything else EXISTS.
2). The INTELLIGENCE - Intelligence regulate the EFFORT.
3). The LUCK/DESTINY - Our luck help us make the right CHOICE.

Are luck and destiny not two different things? I'd consider luck to be fortunate circumstances that aid you, but destiny is something that's
pre-determined and inevitable that happens. Although the second definition depends on whether you believe we have free will or not in thefirst place, to alter the course of life!

I think when we sum up all the luck of our life then what we get is destiny. To be honest, I have no clue about it
but I thought it will satisfy both of the scenarios ...
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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Do we really have a choice?
« Reply #46 - on: 23.10.2011 at 11:37 [UT+1] »I am stunned with the universe.

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