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Malefics - Benefics (Read 3550 times)

Lena_
Ex Member

Malefics - Benefics« on: 06.12.2012 at 16:56 [UT] »Having a disagreement on a subject in this forum, I'd like to present this general debate asking for youropinions.
Jupiter is concidered by many people to be the Santa Claus of the planets.
I happen to believe after studying firstly my own chart that it has to do with what the planets' position in the
natal and what it stands for...
My natal Jupiter is in detriment in Gemini in the 12th.
Except for verifying the 'saved by the bell' theme, my Jupiter makes my thoughts scatered. Other placements
help along and what I get every time Jupiter is energized is that in its highness.. Thoughts about everything,simultaneously, a chaos.
Saturn on the other hand is the most aspected/aspecting one.
In transits, while concidering that transits are the triggers for the rest of the methods to produce an event I've
seen what I'm describing to take place again and again.
Right now I'm in a period of Jupiter return (3 times by transit). My thoughts are scatered and the worst thing isthat I need them to be focused. So I'm awaiting for tr.Saturn to strongly affect a planet so to help me reorganize..
What do you think?
Lena
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #1 - on: 06.12.2012 at 17:13 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 16:56 [UT]:Having a disagreement on a subject in this forum, I'd like to present this general debate asking for your opinions.
Jupiter is concidered by many people to be the Santa Claus of the planets.
I happen to believe after studying firstly my own chart that it has to do with what the planets' position in the natal and what it stands
for...
My natal Jupiter is in detriment in Gemini in the 12th.
Except for verifying the 'saved by the bell' theme, my Jupiter makes my thoughts scatered. Other placements help along and what I getevery time Jupiter is energized is that in its highness.. Thoughts about everything, simultaneously, a chaos.
Saturn on the other hand is the most aspected/aspecting one.
In transits, while concidering that transits are the triggers for the rest of the methods to produce an event I've seen what I'm describing totake place again and again.
Right now I'm in a period of Jupiter return (3 times by transit). My thoughts are scatered and the worst thing is that I need them to befocused. So I'm awaiting for tr.Saturn to strongly affect a planet so to help me re-organize..
What do you think?
Lena

Hi LenaThat's exactly right. A benefic in its detriment or fall acts more malefically, just as a malefic in dignity, acts
more benefically.
Similarly a benefic out of sect is less consistent/harmonious at delivering its benefic qualities, and a malefic insect is more harmonious and so less malefic.

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #2 - on: 06.12.2012 at 17:44 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 06.12.2012 at 17:13 [UT]:
Hi LenaThat's exactly right. A benefic in its detriment or fall acts more malefically, just as a malefic in dignity, acts more benefically.
Similarly a benefic out of sect is less consistent/harmonious at delivering its benefic qualities, and a malefic in sect is more harmonious
and so less malefic.

Hi Paul,Thank you for your comment !
Even that I'm quite sure for my points of view (on my chart that is) it feels especially good that you agree.
What I'm not so sure yet and I'd like an opinion on..
Porviding my Jupiter works more as a malefic, would that mean that a transit Jupiter would work as a malefic
too in general?
Jupiter returning excluded, I'm kinda into the direction of 'it depends which natal it affects and what that planet
has to do with the natal Jupiter'...
Lena
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zarathu

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #3 - on: 06.12.2012 at 18:10 [UT] »The use of the terms malefics and benefics are oriented toward event astrology.
If you are looking for how events might impact your life, then you will need to determine from your birth chart
which of the malefics and benefics are highly impactive there. Ivy Goldstein Jacobson made it clear over andagain that the birth chart predicts impacts, but she was talking about events.
Now if you are more concerned for your psychological needs and thoughts, then what is in your natal chart isless important. Transits that will never have any impact on events can cause or implicate a persiod of confused
mind etc.
But general information is just general information. year and years ago I used to ask my mentor, the famous
Kt Boehrer, about what would happen when "This malefic transited that natal or progressed planet", and shewould repeatedly tell me until my obtuse mind finally understood, that it all depends on your chart. What
happens in other charts is not what is happening in your chart. Saturn in one chart might be a terrible melfic,
and in others a beneficial promoter of discipline. My my Gemini Mercury oriented chart, Saturn has no power,
but it does bring a strong element of disciple which is always beneficial for my mostly scattered thinking
processes.
Without your birthdata it is impossible to make these considerations. Don't believe people who say they can,that's being a psychic, not being an astrologer. There are many good psychics out there who are part time
astrologers, but they are not real astrologers, they are real psychics.
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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #4 - on: 06.12.2012 at 18:22 [UT] »Thank you for your comment zarathu,
If I understood your post (please correct me if I didn't) you also seem to embrace the theory that there are notin standard malefics/benefics planets but it depends on their position in the natal ?
But, further yet, once a planet is (after the study of the natal) concidered as malefic, the transiting one isconcidered a malefic as well?
Quote:My my Gemini Mercury oriented chart, Saturn has no power, but it does bring a strong element of disciple which is always beneficial formy mostly scattered thinking processes.

I liked that.. Though I have a Gem AC, my final dispositor is Mars in my Aries MC. And Aries enjoys a strong
grand trine with Saturn and Moon.. And this is one of the reasons I understand my Saturn as a benefic planet..
Is it so abnormal as a thought?
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zarathuEx Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #5 - on: 06.12.2012 at 18:29 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 18:22 [UT]:Thank you for your comment zarathu,
If I understood your post (please correct me if I didn't) you also seem to embrace the theory that there are not in standard
malefics/benefics planets but it depends on their position in the natal ?
But, further yet, once a planet is (after the study of the natal) concidered as malefic, the transiting one is concidered a malefic as well?
SOMETIMES. THERE ARE STANDARD MALEFICS(Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto), but how impactive they are in YOUR chart depends on ahost of factors that were defined and organized by the Chruch of Light(although they existed in the literature since astrology began)). So I
ahve a natal chart with only two friction producing planets, both malefics. But you could have a chart where Jupiter(THE major benefic) is
actually the most powerful and the most friction producing. For you this would always work as a malefic, blowing everything you docompletely out of proportion. When you eat things under the Jupitor influence you get fat. When you talk under the Jupiter influence, youalways make a mountain out of a molehill. For you, Jupiter could indeed be a maelfic.
Quote:My my Gemini Mercury oriented chart, Saturn has no power, but it does bring a strong element of disciple which is always
beneficial for my mostly scattered thinking processes.

I liked that.. Though I have a Gem AC, my final dispositor is Mars in my Aries MC. And Aries enjoys a strong grand trine with Saturn andMoon.. And this is one of the reasons I understand my Saturn as a benefic planet.. Is it so abnormal as a thought?

Without seeing your chart, I can't tell if what you are describing is accurate according to Zarathu Astrology.
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CelineMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #6 - on: 06.12.2012 at 19:28 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 18:22 [UT]:

If I understood your post (please correct me if I didn't) you also seem to embrace the theory that there are not in standard
malefics/benefics planets but it depends on their position in the natal ?

Posts: 2948
Gender:I too agree with this. If a so-called benefic is badly positioned in your chart, its transits will not deliver benefits,
and vice versa. I have a weak Jupiter in a T square and I tend to have problems with Jupiter transits (twice I've
lost jobs during a Jupiter transit). In contrast, Mars is well positioned in my chart and I consider it a benefic forme because it brings me stability and clarity.
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Lena_

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #7 - on: 06.12.2012 at 19:47 [UT] »Quote from zarathu on 06.12.2012 at 18:29 [UT]:
Without seeing your chart, I can't tell if what you are describing is accurate according to Zarathu Astrology.

I was communing that as a theory not as a personal issue. I mean it doesn't have to be verified through mychart in order for the idea to be valid, right?
Anyhow, for arguments sake there goes mine.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 16:06 [UT] by Alois »Back to top

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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #8 - on: 06.12.2012 at 19:52 [UT] »Quote from Celine on 06.12.2012 at 19:28 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 18:22 [UT]:

If I understood your post (please correct me if I didn't) you also seem to embrace the theory that there are not instandard malefics/benefics planets but it depends on their position in the natal ?

I too agree with this. If a so-called benefic is badly positioned in your chart, its transits will not deliver benefits, and vice versa. I have aweak Jupiter in a T square and I tend to have problems with Jupiter transits (twice I've lost jobs during a Jupiter transit). In contrast, Mars
is well positioned in my chart and I consider it a benefic for me because it brings me stability and clarity.

Hi Celine, thank you for dropping by!
Did those transits affect natal planets that are badly aspected by your natal Jupiter Celine during that Jupitertransit you describe?
What I'm trying to figure out is how you think of transiting Jupiter in general in addition to the natal
placement.
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Heracles V.

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #9 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:09 [UT] »Jupiter represents the ''expansion - multiplying factor'' in a chart and in this sense it is really the ''Santa Claus''of the planets. The difference is that what Jupiter expands -multiplies is exactly what already exists in thechart. And that may be something undesirable or unpleasant. So, generally speaking I'd agree with your viewwhich is also the dominant among astrologers.

Posts: 944
Gender:

The scattered thoughts factor in your chart is represented by the Mercury-Uranus opposition and for sure it
would be better for you if your Jupiter was placed in an earth sign. But notice something here... the fact thatyou feel stressed by this is the result of the Mercury - Saturn square ! Saturn is responsible for your stress andnot Jupiter. And here is the struggle indicated by the Sun/Mercury-Saturn-Uranus T-square.
You know, not everybody is aware of their detriments and what you perceive as scattered way of thinking it
may be perceived in an entirely different way by someone else. A lot of people may perceive it as an indicationof a clever mind with multiple interests...

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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #10 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:26 [UT] »Quote from Heracles V. on 06.12.2012 at 20:09 [UT]:
Jupiter represents the ''expansion - multiplying factor'' in a chart and in this sense it is really the ''Santa Claus'' of the planets. The
difference is that what Jupiter expands -multiplies is exactly what already exists in the chart. And that may be something undesirable orunpleasant. So, generally speaking I'd agree with your view which is also the dominant among astrologers.

Thank you Heracles,
That was exactly the point of the issue. How 'traditionally' people consider Jupiter to be benefic.
Maybe it's more a philosophical issue 'when Less is More (benefic Saturn) and when More is More_than_enough(malefic Jupiter)'.. ?
But the point always is when the native feels happy I guess. Thus, judging by the result, I (personally) don't
like Jupiter returns and I do enjoy Saturnian break through's...
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Waybread

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #11 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:31 [UT] »Lena, when I read your OP I thought, "Jupiter in Gemini sure doesn't sound like scattered thoughts. I wonder if
she's got Mercury retrograde."
Mercury is really your thought process. Gemini as a sign indicates how or in what manner your Jupiter
operates. But although Gemini is curious and the consumate multi-tasker, Jupiter in Gemini isn't necessary
going to be "scattered." Jupiter deals more with your sense of faith and optimism in life.

Posts: 14740
Gender:I would attribute "scattered thoughts" to your CR opposite Uranus. Uranus deals with disruption and doesn'tmuch care for structure. Then these are part of a T-square with Chiron and Saturn, suggesting not only thatyou have difficulty focusing due to the C/O dynamic, but that Saturn and Chiron are going to make you feelbadly about it.
Your Jupiter is in the 12th house, suggesting that it may be hard for you to access the good that it can do inyour life. However, because the 12th deals with feeling shut-in in some way, this is actually a decent position
for meditation that you undertake on your own. I would think with that moon-Neptune opposition, you arealso extremely idealistic. But not bad if you wish to become a mystic.
An inability to focus isn't such a bad problem because there are tricks you can use to remind yourself of what
you wanted to do or say. A big one for me back when I was working was simply to jot down important
thoughts and keep a to-do list or set of notes/talking-points handy.
Jupiter and Venus are benefic, I think, even when not-the-best situated, because a Jupiter or Venus square or
opposition is usually milder than, say, a hard aspect from Mars or Saturn. The benefics can still generate somefriction, but I think the main one is that you will try to do to much; and with Neptune in the mix, you may thenoverload and suffer from disillusionment or exhaustion.

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Heracles V.
Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #12 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:31 [UT] »You are welcome but I don't know if you read the part I added after looking at your chart
The stress you feel at the moment doesn't come from the Jupiter transit. Haven't you noticed that tr. Saturn is
opposing your Mercury right now ?

Posts: 944
Gender:Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 20:26 [UT]:
Quote from Heracles V. on 06.12.2012 at 20:09 [UT]:
Jupiter represents the ''expansion - multiplying factor'' in a chart and in this sense it is really the ''Santa Claus'' of theplanets. The difference is that what Jupiter expands -multiplies is exactly what already exists in the chart. And that may
be something undesirable or unpleasant. So, generally speaking I'd agree with your view which is also the dominant among
astrologers.

Thank you Heracles,
That was exactly the point of the issue. How 'traditionally' people consider Jupiter to be benefic.
Maybe it's more a philosophical issue 'when Less is More (benefic Saturn) and when More is More_than_enough (malefic Jupiter)'.. ?
But the point always is when the native feels happy I guess. Thus, judging by the result, I (personally) don't like Jupiter returns and I do
enjoy Saturnian break through's...

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Aquamarine67

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #13 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:37 [UT] »I think that F is not always beneficial. Is that what you are getting at here?
jupiter in gemini is in its detriment and I agree would have an effect on mercury in your chart also.
I think F can sometimes be tooooo much. (probably not in your case) but maybe as you say in relation to theway you think.
maybe some form of meditation to help clear your mind would help you.
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zarathuEx Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #14 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:39 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 18:22 [UT]:

I liked that.. Though I have a Gem AC, my final dispositor is Mars in my Aries MC. And Aries enjoys a strong grand trine with Saturn andMoon.. And this is one of the reasons I understand my Saturn as a benefic planet.. Is it so abnormal as a thought?

You have no choice but to see Saturn as a major mover in your chart. Its the strongest planet, and its alsorather friction producing. You feel its impacts continuously. However, Venus is just barely behind in power,
and when you use its energies you get none of the side effects that you get from Saturn. Aries is yourstrongest sign by far, Taurus being second but not even close, and Aries energies also are really smooth sailinglike Venus is as a planet. Likewise actions and people pertaining to the tenth house work out well for you.
But people and actions pertaining to your second house are much harder to deal with as is Capricorn. In yourchart, Saturn IS a malefic, and being in the second house HE also influences the actions and people of the 3rd
house, bringing Saturn type disappointments there eventually.
But you have a very strong and frictionless Jupiter and Venus. These help to balance. That said, though you
are 35 years old. Issues above described are what was impactive for you 35 years ago. But things change; lifechanges. In Zarathu Astrology we really need to look at your secondary progessed chart developmentally. The
birth chart is really NOT YOU ANYMORE.
This is all very general and just a quick look at the basic data. This is like looking at the letters and words of aparagraph, not showing the meaning of the sentences and the paragraph as a whole. What you really want toknow are such things as:
1. How are you best able to deal with the changes in your life and what are they?
2. What are you not seeing in your life and how can you be creative to make changes that you want?
3. How are you basically limited in life, and which aspects of your life should you just accept and not try to run
against the current?
4. Where are the places in your life where you can grow without worrying about being unnecessarily held back?
5. Where can you draw the most energy to be successful in living, and where are the areas you should not try
to draw because they will deplete you and ruin your physical, emotional, and spiritual health?
6. Where can you focus your intellect to get what you need rather than necessaily what you want?
7. And finally, the most important question of all: Why are you here?
This is what real astrology does, and what its for. I could not give you a basic description of what I call theletters of the astrological alphabet, without telling you that they are without real meaning. You should notconfuse these letters of the astological alphabet with what astrology really is.
Zarathu
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Lena_

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #15 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:41 [UT] »Quote from Heracles V. on 06.12.2012 at 20:09 [UT]:
You know, not everybody is aware of their detriments and what you perceive as scattered way of thinking it may be perceived in an
entirely different way by someone else. A lot of people may perceive it as an indication of a clever mind with multiple interests...

Or both or even more to that. One doesn't exlude the other option here I think. As the matter of fact I believe
its all of that in a proportion the native manages to balance via other factors.
Quote from Heracles V. on 06.12.2012 at 20:09 [UT]:The scattered thoughts factor in your chart is represented by the Mercury-Uranus opposition and for sure it would be better for you if yourJupiter was placed in an earth sign. But notice something here... the fact that you feel stressed by this is the result of the Mercury Saturn square ! Saturn is responsible for your stress and not Jupiter. And here is the struggle indicated by the Sun/Mercury-Saturn-Uranus
T-square.

I agree up to a point. Defining my chart as I understand myself and Keeping It Simple, I tend to (and that isthe derailing of the thread) examine dispositorships before aspects. And when it comes to aspects I keep them
short (so I can understand them and not getting lost). A brief example would be if I also concidered Jupitersext Venus/Mars, Yod Uranus. And the queue goes endless due to the formations - I don't think there is aformation I don't have in my chart.
So, keeping it simple, Jupiter is disposited by Mercury, disp by Venus, disp by Mars. (every planet is dispositedby mars actually). I presume you made the connection from Jupiter to Mercury via disposition, too, no? If so,
why stop and examine Mercury which forms a weaker aspect (square) to Saturn and not a step further to thetighter aspect (trine) by Venus/Mars to Saturn? This way of thinking would (logically) conclude to Saturnhandling the stress instead of causing it..
Does that make sense? I've tried many ways in understanding the natal promise and this is the most fitting
according to transits and how I've experienced them..
Lena
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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #16 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:44 [UT] »Quote from Heracles V. on 06.12.2012 at 20:31 [UT]:
You are welcome but I don't know if you read the part I added after looking at your chart
The stress you feel at the moment doesn't come from the Jupiter transit. Haven't you noticed that tr. Saturn is opposing your Mercury
right now ?

I do, and I think I've been keen on that.. (Now you have shaken my faith a bit..

)

You see, the big mess started in early June, just when tr.Jupiter went in orb for returning for the 1st time thisyear.. By then, Saturn was in my 4th, in orb to conjunct TN..
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Lena_

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #17 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:51 [UT] »Quote from Waybread on 06.12.2012 at 20:31 [UT]:
Jupiter deals more with your sense of faith and optimism in life.

You're right and maybe I haven't explained clearly since I tried to keep it general..
Actually this is exactly why my thoughts are being scatered Way. It's not that I just realised I cannot focus; it isbecause I'm under so much stress (simultaneous problems) comming from everywhere that I cannot manage tofocus my thoughts in only one problem..
The last time I can remember such a confusio was right back my previous Jupiter return...
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Richard Fidler
Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #18 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:56 [UT] »If I could bring in a Jyotish angle; in Vedic astrology there are 'natural' benefics and malefics as well as'temporary' or 'temporal' (sometimes called 'functional') benefics and malefics, and there are very specific rules
for classifying a planet as a temporal benefic or malefic.
The natural malefics are Mars, Saturn, the Nodes, and to some degree the Sun (having a 'combusting' effect).
The natural benefics are Jupiter and Venus (most distinctly), as well as the Moon (more definitely when brightand waxing), and Mercury (when not associated with malefics, since he's easily influenced, so to speak).
Posts: 542
Gender:Planets that rules the 'konas' or dharma houses (1, 5, 9) gain temporal benefic status regardless of their natural
status.
The very best situation is when a planet rules a kona (1,5,9) AND a kendra (Angular house, 1,4,7,10), and thisoccurs only for the Taurus, Cancer, Leo, Libra, Capricorn and Aquarius Ascendants. Such a planet becomes the'raja yoga karaka' (roughly 'kingly combination significator'); it combines the dynamism and action of theangular houses with the 'grace' of the trinal (1, 5, 9) Houses, and it cannot also rule a difficult house (6, 8, 12),so there's no dilution of the benefic of ruling and dharma house by also ruling a difficult house (as may occur,for example, for the Libra Asc where Mercury rules the auspicious 9th AND difficult 12th).
In the Tropical Gemini Asc chart posted above, when converted to the Vedic Sidereal format, Taurus rises andSaturn becomes the best planet because it rules the 9th AND 10th. Saturn would be in Cancer in the 3rd and so
far from the 3rd being blocked, it would be in this arena that you could be most empowered, BUT, although
Saturn becomes a temporal benefic, Saturn remains Saturn, remains somewhat grave and serious etc.. Saturn
does not transform into a frivolous planet, but it becomes far more possible to gain through Saturn. There
could still be some distance from or absence of siblings, and/or they may sometimes experience loneliness, butthere could be success in educational and communications fields, etc...
It becomes quite nuanced when you have natural malefics becoming temporal benefics, and vice versa.
Jupiter in the above chart, in Vedic terms, would be in the 1st inTaurus, and lord of the 8th and in the sign ofan enemy (Venus is the enemy of Jupiter). Jupiter can become distinctly harmful (and yet may bring moneyfrom others through it's simultaneously lordship of the 8th and 11th). When some of the initial seeming
contradictions are resolved, the 'mixed status' of some planets becomes a valuable key to how they'll function.
Even a poor Jupiter in the 1st can make one a teacher, healer, something like that, while also being a agent for
problems.
On another level entirely exalted planets always tend to bring some benefits (but if they're malefics they may
also harm to some degree, since their basic natures remain somewhat coarse), likewise debilitated planets
always cause some problems, even benefics, but such benefics may still show a tendency to want to produce'good', but it's like the clumsy or unskilled about it and may succeed in achieving the opposite.
It's not black and white...

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Heracles V.

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #19 - on: 06.12.2012 at 20:56 [UT] »you don't keep it simple at all. Actually you make it much more complicated than it really is...
Mercury is the ruler of your Gemini Ascendant and the T-square ( involving Mercury) is by far the most powerfulconfiguration in your chart. It's clearly a matter of energy strength.
Mars is very strong too...but it does not influence your thinking mechanism ( not aspect to Mercury, notinvolvement with your 3rd house or its ruler ).
Posts: 944
Gender:

Dispositions and the rest are of secondary importance in your case where the ''big picture'' is so clear.

Quote:

I agree up to a point. Defining my chart as I understand myself and Keeping It Simple, I tend to (and that is the derailing of the thread)examine dispositorships before aspects. And when it comes to aspects I keep them short (so I can understand them and not getting lost).
A brief example would be if I also concidered Jupiter sext Venus/Mars, Yod Uranus. And the queue goes endless due to the formations - I
don't think there is a formation I don't have in my chart.
So, keeping it simple, Jupiter is disposited by Mercury, disp by Venus, disp by Mars. (every planet is disposited by mars actually). I
presume you made the connection from Jupiter to Mercury via disposition, too, no? If so, why stop and examine Mercury which forms aweaker aspect (square) to Saturn and not a step further to the tighter aspect (trine) by Venus/Mars to Saturn? This way of thinking would(logically) conclude to Saturn handling the stress instead of causing it..
Does that make sense? I've tried many ways in understanding the natal promise and this is the most fitting according to transits and how
I've experienced them..

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zarathu
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #20 - on: 06.12.2012 at 21:04 [UT] »Quote from zarathu on 06.12.2012 at 20:39 [UT]:
But things change; life changes. In Zarathu Astrology we really need to look at your secondary progessed chart developmentally.
Zarathu

Looking at your 2ndary pregressed developmental chart shows more of what you think you see for
TODAY. As opposed to your birth 35 years ago, Saturn is now not friction producing. Its not nearly as
powerful as it was before but it causes you good things.
But you need to look at your birth chart with a grain of salt once you are over the age of 20. Its really not you
anymore.
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Waybread

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #21 - on: 06.12.2012 at 21:27 [UT] »Lena, you obviously know your thoughts and chart better than I do, but what you describe just doesn't soundlike Jupiter to me. As an energy, he deals with the principle of expansion. As a ruler, he deals with topics likehigher education, long-distance travel, philosophy, theology, and published works of enduring value. Mercury is
your day-to-day thought processes. Jupiter, as a thinking planet, deals with the Big Picture and how you makesense of life in a more philosophical way.
I note that just now Pluto opposes your Mercury, and has done so for some time. With Mercury in Taurus, you
would seemingly prefer thinking to be careful, deliberate, and practical. I think the retrograde here reinforces
this tendency, because your mind likes to review different facts multiple times to make sure it is correct.
Posts: 14740
Gender:

Uranus natally and Pluto transitionally cause major upheavals in your prefered thinking mode. I think this isespecially hard for Mercury in Taurus, as this fixed earth sign is getting hit by major turmoil.
I've lived through a bunch of Jupiter returns, and I really can't say they made a big difference. Maybe it was agood time to think through my life philosophy, but not so's I'd notice.

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #22 - on: 06.12.2012 at 21:30 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 06.12.2012 at 20:56 [UT]:
It's not black and white...

I agree with you on that (also to what you wrote before) and thank you for your input Richard.
I haven't studied Jyotish as I'd like.. I'm transiting my Saade Saath now but I feel quite safe because how
Saturn works by ruling my Trikona.
Even I'm always tempted into mixing the two ways of studying a chart, I've been thinking that if something is
indicated in one way of studying one chart should at least be indicated up to a point via another.. no?
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Lena_

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #23 - on: 06.12.2012 at 21:33 [UT] »Quote from Aquamarine67 on 06.12.2012 at 20:37 [UT]:
I think that

F is not always beneficial. Is that what you are getting at here?

jupiter in gemini is in its detriment and I agree would have an effect on mercury in your chart also.
I think

F can sometimes be tooooo much. (probably not in your case) but maybe as you say in relation to the way you think.

That is my point exactly. Jupiter, while being too much could cause more trouble than good and eventually act
as a malefic..
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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #24 - on: 06.12.2012 at 21:59 [UT] »Quote from Waybread on 06.12.2012 at 20:31 [UT]:
Lena, when I read your OP I thought, "Jupiter in Gemini sure doesn't sound like scattered thoughts. I wonder if she's got Mercury
retrograde."
Mercury is really your thought process. Gemini as a sign indicates how or in what manner your Jupiter operates. But although Gemini iscurious and the consumate multi-tasker, Jupiter in Gemini isn't necessary going to be "scattered." Jupiter deals more with your sense offaith and optimism in life.
I would attribute "scattered thoughts" to yourCR opposite Uranus. Uranus deals with disruption and doesn't much care for structure. Then
C/O dynamic, butthese are part of a T-square with Chiron and Saturn, suggesting not only that you have difficulty focusing due to thethat Saturn and Chiron are going to make you feel badly about it.

Your Jupiter is in the 12th house, suggesting that it may be hard for you to access the good that it can do in your life. However, because
the 12th deals with feeling shut-in in some way, this is actually a decent position for meditation that you undertake on your own. I would
think with that moon-Neptune opposition, you are also extremely idealistic. But not bad if you wish to become a mystic.
An inability to focus isn't such a bad problem because there are tricks you can use to remind yourself of what you wanted to do or say. A
big one for me back when I was working was simply to jot down important thoughts and keep a to-do list or set of notes/talking-points
handy.
Jupiter and Venus are benefic, I think, even when not-the-best situated, because a Jupiter or Venus square or opposition is usually milder
than, say, a hard aspect from Mars or Saturn. The benefics can still generate some friction, but I think the main one is that you will try to
do to much; and with Neptune in the mix, you may then overload and suffer from disillusionment or exhaustion.

If there is a problem that needs solution or a more in depth thinking people come to me to do it. Its a naturalability of mine to understand (or at least put the best effort to) a problem to its core. Somehow I thought thatwas due to my T-Square Merqury/Uranus to Saturn. A forced focused radical thinking..
Whenever n.Jupiter is affected by transits that trait of mine vanishes into the thin air. I'm loosing control of myqueue of thoughts and they just spread around..
But I tried to understand better what you wrote Jupiter in Gemini sure doesn't sound like scattered thoughts,
but I couldn't... Why doesn't it make sense when Jupiter is in 12th?
Mercury, as a thought progress as you said is in Taurus. Maybe slow to cope with, maybe wanting to be secure(Saturn, earthian) but how could it be considered scattered? Thoughts are Gem/Sag, Low thoughts are
air/Gem.. no?
Chiron I believe is about my eccentricity and how it is accepted or not by my 11th..
My Moon/Neptune conjunction is something I haven't yet worked on consciously.. So I have no idea how that'natal promise' could work out...
Gemini as a sign indicates how or in what manner your Jupiter operates
I think in that way of putting it, Jupiter could be an additional burdain on my Mercury.. For instanse, when I
have to rapidly answer something I hesitate because I have to pick from a variety of possible answers/tones
that come up in my head at the same time.
I have to give some more thought on your suggestions though since I haven't thought of the placements topossibly work that way so far...
Lena
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Pallas27

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #25 - on: 06.12.2012 at 22:06 [UT] »Lena, you have a fascinating collection of aspect patterns!
2 grand trines
2 t squares
2 mystic triangles
2 yods(if you included aspects to the vertex, this would increase further!)Interesting, c rises (all things dual) and F has been used to illustrate the point : )Posts: 1828
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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #26 - on: 06.12.2012 at 22:20 [UT] »Quote from zarathu on 06.12.2012 at 20:39 [UT]:This is what real astrology does, and what its for. I could not give you a basic description of what I call the letters of the astrologicalalphabet, without telling you that they are without real meaning. You should not confuse these letters of the astological alphabet with what
astrology really is.
Zarathu

I haven't heard of Zarathu astrology up to now to be honest..
Until I can read some more on Zarathu, I'll try to understand the philosophy if you don't mind..
You have no choice but to see Saturn as a major mover in your chart. Its the strongest planet, and its alsorather friction producing. You feel its impacts continuously.
By that I presume you mean a constant affect from Saturn. If so, isn't that producing an acquired trait? Aren't
I being accustomed to Saturnian traits? The definition of Mithridatism? If so, then how a Saturnian affect could
ever be felt as malefic by the native?
But you have a very strong and frictionless Jupiter and Venus.
In western astrology, when there are un aspected planets, I understand them as wild cards.. Just because they
are not tied to something else, something to hold on (oppositions/squares) or something to cooperate with toabsorb the tension (sextiles, trines) one may never know how they'll influence the natal chart.. Sameproportions go for dealinated planets (imo).. How do frictionless planets work for Zarathu?
This is what real astrology does, and what its for. I could not give you a basic description of what I call theletters of the astrological alphabet, without telling you that they are without real meaning. You should notconfuse these letters of the astological alphabet with what astrology really is
I like mechanics just because if you understand how a mechanism works you can make it work your way. This is
how I understand astrology in general. A mechanism that noone so far has completely understood how it works
but above all, how it DOESN'T work.
I like astrology just because there isn't a manuscript. People still try to figure out ways to make it work insteadof understanding how it works.. I'm with you all the way there..
Quote from zarathu on 06.12.2012 at 21:04 [UT]:
Quote from zarathu on 06.12.2012 at 20:39 [UT]:
But things change; life changes. In Zarathu Astrology we really need to look at your secondary progessed chartdevelopmentally.
Zarathu

Looking at your 2ndary pregressed developmental chart shows more of what you think you see for TODAY. As opposed to yourbirth 35 years ago, Saturn is now not friction producing. Its not nearly as powerful as it was before but it causes you good things.
But you need to look at your birth chart with a grain of salt once you are over the age of 20. Its really not you anymore.

Do secondary progressions work like they do in western astrology? Would you recommend amy articles onlineof Zarathu astrology?
Lena,intrigued..
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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #27 - on: 06.12.2012 at 22:48 [UT] »Quote from Heracles V. on 06.12.2012 at 20:56 [UT]:
you don't keep it simple at all. Actually you make it much more complicated than it really is...

You sound like my teachers.. I can't understand by the picture on your avatar but I do hope you aren't one ofthem...
Quote:
Mars is very strong too...but it does not influence your thinking mechanism ( not aspect to Mercury, not involvement with your 3rd houseor its ruler ).

My entire being is Martian actually.. I want things done yesterday and I strongly believe the best way is the
direct one. It saves you energy, time and nothing sounds better than demolishing something old and faultyoperated so to build a new one. Why to demolish it? Because it doesn't serve us (Venus) the way it should any
more (Saturn).. So I'm figuring out ways to do it (Mercury/Uranus). Too many options.. (Jupiter)
I like mechanics as I said before. But not conventional ones. When I'm not studying astrology I'm thinking ofways to make life better. The more radical the merrier. (Uranus --> Mars)
My wildest dream? To be a pioneer on mechanics (or physics).. Moon -- Jupiter -- Mercury -- Venus -- Mars..
However you put it, the chain of command leads to Mars. And ironically (..) my SN is in Aries..
Quote:
Dispositions and the rest are of secondary importance in your case where the ''big picture'' is so clear.

I really want to see things the way you do. I never get the chance to see the big picture since I'm too busy
breaking it into pieces in order to build it for myself.. Not a good trait most of the times I'd have to admit..
Lena
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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #28 - on: 06.12.2012 at 22:53 [UT] »Quote from Pallas27 on 06.12.2012 at 22:06 [UT]:
Lena, you have a fascinating collection of aspect patterns!
2 grand trines
2 t squares
2 mystic triangles
2 yods(if you included aspects to the vertex, this would increase further!)Interesting,c rises (all things dual) and F has been used to illustrate the point : )A pain in the %^$ if you ask me Pallas.. For months I really didn't know where to start and when to stop when
I started studying astrology.. One transit aspecting, everything lights up like a Christmass tree..
I'm quite proud for myself I'm still into it
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #29 - on: 06.12.2012 at 22:56 [UT] »My Moon/Neptune conjunction is something I haven't yet worked on consciously.
this is whats driving you.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #30 - on: 06.12.2012 at 22:59 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 17:44 [UT]:Hi Paul,Thank you for your comment !
Even that I'm quite sure for my points of view (on my chart that is) it feels especially good that you agree.
What I'm not so sure yet and I'd like an opinion on..
Porviding my Jupiter works more as a malefic, would that mean that a transit Jupiter would work as a malefic too in general?
Jupiter returning excluded, I'm kinda into the direction of 'it depends which natal it affects and what that planet has to do with the natal
Jupiter'...
Lena

I'm purely going by theory here, not examining your chart, so your chart may have other mitigating factors. I
would not rule out examining Mercury like Waybread suggests, not least because of its aspects but because it isthe dispositor for Jupiter and a well placed dispositor that can act in a chart can aid the planets which it hosts,
in this case Jupiter.
Regarding events, whilst the terms are often used in event prediction there is no rule or reason that it is only
for event prediction. In fact many astrologers make use of the terminology in all their astrology, be it
psychological or otherwise. There is nothing special about the terms malefic and benefic.
Like Richard I would recognise natural malefics and benefics and similarly accidental ones.
As for transits, nothing can come to pass that is not brought forth or promised in the nativity, so yourrelationship to Jupiter, which will be experienced during a transit, will be examined or better understood by thenatal position and condition. Whilst being out of dignity can have, on the face of it, a malefic quality (especiallyfor whatever houses Jupiter rules), there is another way of examining it. Planets out of dignity are those whichmust adapt or alter their basic needs in order to work in a chart. This is stressful and the worst of the traits ofthe planets sometimes comes to the fore more naturally than not. It can take some experience and will to 'keepthem in line' as it were, particularly in regards the areas of life as signified by the houses it rules. However
adaptability also suggests different or out of the box or contrary to the orthodox way of using that planet.
People with planets out of dignity just have stressed or degraded significators for houses and we can expect
those areas of life to be difficult to hold together (depending on all the other chart factors of course) but at thesame time how we use that planet in our own personal lives can be incredibly creative and unorthodox and outof the box. So as usual, it's a mixed bag. What provides stress also provides the impetus to use and work withthe planet and what it signifies in a different way which can be a great thing. It's like with squares and trines,
whilst trines bring more ease and serenity, they are not necessarily productive, squares, although stressful aremuch more productive than trines. So it is with the planets and their sect and dignity, good healthy strong
planets can relied upon when the chips are down in our life and we are struggling, those are the strong points
which will keep us up. But the weaker planets encourage us to DO something with our lives in those areas, tolearn and grow and to do it in our own individual ways outside of convention.
This is a slightly different way of looking at the planetary dignities. However, there is also no doubting that, atthe surface level, difficult stressed malefic planets or those acting malefically are stressful and can signify
difficulties in life - but such is life, we take the rough with the smooth.
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Lena_

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #31 - on: 06.12.2012 at 23:01 [UT] »Quote from chang*ling on 06.12.2012 at 22:56 [UT]:My Moon/Neptune conjunction is something I haven't yet worked on consciously.
this is whats driving you.

I have a feeling you are right.. The same feeling sais 'not yet' though..
Lena,
nice to see you around again
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #32 - on: 06.12.2012 at 23:09 [UT] »Quote from zarathu on 06.12.2012 at 21:04 [UT]:
But you need to look at your birth chart with a grain of salt once you are over the age of 20. Its really not you anymore.

I can't say I've ever noticed it describing anything other than the individual. If it is not describing them then doyou ever use it?
I'm not sure I know many astrologers who would agree that the natal chart does not describe the individual
once they reach 20.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #33 - on: 06.12.2012 at 23:18 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 22:20 [UT]:
Until I can read some more on Zarathu, I'll try to understand the philosophy if you don't mind..

Nietzscheis's philosophy lies behind Zarathu(stra)'s creation.
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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #34 - on: 06.12.2012 at 23:42 [UT] »Quote from Waybread on 06.12.2012 at 21:27 [UT]:
Lena, you obviously know your thoughts and chart better than I do, but what you describe just doesn't sound like Jupiter to me. As anenergy, he deals with the principle of expansion. As a ruler, he deals with topics like higher education, long-distance travel, philosophy,
theology, and published works of enduring value. Mercury is your day-to-day thought processes. Jupiter, as a thinking planet, deals with
the Big Picture and how you make sense of life in a more philosophical way.

I fully agree with you here. Think of an enforced Jupiter now. Isn't it a side effect in every transit? The Big
Picture you mention gets so big that blurs. The wood is long gone and now the forest itself is blur. I don't knowhow else to describe it..

Quote:
I note that just now Pluto opposes your Mercury, and has done so for some time. With Mercury in Taurus, you would seemingly prefer
thinking to be careful, deliberate, and practical. I think the retrograde here reinforces this tendency, because your mind likes to review
different facts multiple times to make sure it is correct.
Uranus natally and Pluto transitionally cause major upheavals in your prefered thinking mode. I think this is especially hard for Mercury in
Taurus, as this fixed earth sign is getting hit by major turmoil.
I've lived through a bunch of Jupiter returns, and I really can't say they made a big difference. Maybe it was a good time to think throughmy life philosophy, but not so's I'd notice.

Transiting Pluto actually trines my Mercury and forms a Yod to the sextile Jupiter/Saturn. What I underlined inyour quote is exact to the point but I think it's due to the square to insecure Leo Saturn..
The last Lunar Eclipse was head on my Jupiter. That (I strongly believe) was the trigger of the biggest
realisation of my life and the cause of most of my mistakes. After that revelation (which by the way is a clear
cut Jupiter/12th issue) everything has to change. It is a turning point in my life philosophy for me. My previous
Jupiter return happened the very same time my living habbits changed and not to the best... That goes too for
oppositions as I can rememeber.
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Lena_

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #35 - on: 06.12.2012 at 23:50 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 06.12.2012 at 22:59 [UT]:
I'm purely going by theory here, not examining your chart, so your chart may have other mitigating factors. I would not rule out
examining Mercury like Waybread suggests, not least because of its aspects but because it is the dispositor for Jupiter and a well placed
dispositor that can act in a chart can aid the planets which it hosts, in this case Jupiter.

I'm not ruling out Mercury either. It just doesn't feel as important/heavy as Mars or Saturn. Maybe it is because
I'm more than 30 years relocated (in a Cancer AC, Piscean MC). But even though (with a slight uncertainty) I
don't think Moon could be as important as Mars or Saturn in my chart..
Quote:
Like Richard I would recognise natural malefics and benefics and similarly accidental ones.

Oh? Would you care elaborating there a bit?
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CelineMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #36 - on: 07.12.2012 at 18:48 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 19:52 [UT]:
Quote from Celine on 06.12.2012 at 19:28 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 18:22 [UT]:

Posts: 2948
Gender:If I understood your post (please correct me if I didn't) you also seem to embrace the theory that there are
not in standard malefics/benefics planets but it depends on their position in the natal ?

I too agree with this. If a so-called benefic is badly positioned in your chart, its transits will not deliver benefits, and viceversa. I have a weak Jupiter in a T square and I tend to have problems with Jupiter transits (twice I've lost jobs during a
Jupiter transit). In contrast, Mars is well positioned in my chart and I consider it a benefic for me because it brings me
stability and clarity.

Hi Celine, thank you for dropping by!
Did those transits affect natal planets that are badly aspected by your natal Jupiter Celine during that Jupiter transit you describe?
What I'm trying to figure out is how you think of transiting Jupiter in general in addition to the natal placement.

Well, the first time I lost a job during a Jupiter transit was in my last Jupiter return, which activated the Tsquare with Sun and Neptune. The second time was when Jupiter squared Mars and MC (although I had othernegative influences at the time that obviously didn't help).
The point is that Jupiter is not as good as it's made to sound, especially if the natal Jupiter is badly aspected.
For one, I think it gives poor judgement and this can have serious consequences on decisions and choices.
As regards your chart, I believe Mars and Neptune are the strongest planets because they are angular. Fromthese two Mars is the strongest because it's in its own sign in an angular house (Neptune is cadent). Saturnwould come after because it's probably the most aspected planet in your chart, so Saturnian energy is diffusedthroughout. Jupiter is not that strong, but not too bad either, since at least it has some positive aspects. A
12th house Jupiter can signify protection, but, on the whole, the 12th weakens all planets except Neptune andSaturn (which are better weakened).
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Matrika Matters

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #37 - on: 08.12.2012 at 04:42 [UT] »Lena_, Just as a note, not an interpretation of any planet's placement or aspects...reading through this thread, what you post here does not come across at all as a scattered-thinking person's
writing.
Posts: 7407

It is very clearly written.

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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #38 - on: 08.12.2012 at 10:10 [UT] »Quote from Matrika on 08.12.2012 at 04:42 [UT]:
Lena_, Just as a note, not an interpretation of any planet's placement or aspects...reading through this thread, what you post here does not come across at all as a scattered-thinking person's writing.
It is very clearly written.

If only you could get into my head and see for yourself Matrika.
But you are commenting on the way I'm expressing my thinking... in writting.
The efford I'm putting into writting down something that makes sense to others is a lot more than what I'mused to.
It is an interesting observation though.
The first thing that pops up in my head is tr.Saturns assisting my Mercury, forcing a focus(?). That could makea lot of sense since during last summer, I didn't bother/couldn't afford talking from a point after. I kept getting
tired explaining again and again and still my points never came through. So I let it be.
12th (F) is thinking.. 3rd (no planet, cusp in Leo, AmC in 11th, no apparent connection..) is expressing.. I
wonder if there was a planet in my 3rd..
Once more, an interesting observation, thank you for the insight Matrika,
Lena
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Richard Fidler

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #39 - on: 08.12.2012 at 10:49 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 08.12.2012 at 10:10 [UT]:
Quote from Matrika on 08.12.2012 at 04:42 [UT]:
Lena_, Just as a note, not an interpretation of any planet's placement or aspects...reading through this thread, what you post here does not come across at all as a scattered-thinking person's writing.
It is very clearly written.

If only you could get into my head and see for yourself Matrika.

Posts: 542
Gender:But you are commenting on the way I'm expressing my thinking... in writting.
The efford I'm putting into writting down something that makes sense to others is a lot more than what I'm used to.
It is an interesting observation though.
The first thing that pops up in my head is tr.Saturns assisting my Mercury, forcing a focus(?). That could make a lot of sense since during
last summer, I didn't bother/couldn't afford talking from a point after. I kept getting tired explaining again and again and still my points
never came through. So I let it be.

F

12th ( ) is thinking.. 3rd (no planet, cusp in Leo,in my 3rd..

AmC in 11th, no apparent connection..) is expressing.. I wonder if there was a planet

Once more, an interesting observation, thank you for the insight Matrika,
Lena

I'd call it an empowered Saturn in the 3rd; structured communication requiring some discipline...
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Richard Fidler
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #40 - on: 08.12.2012 at 10:51 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 21:30 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 06.12.2012 at 20:56 [UT]:
It's not black and white...
Even I'm always tempted into mixing the two ways of studying a chart, I've been thinking that if something is indicated in one way of
studying one chart should at least be indicated up to a point via another.. no?

Posts: 542
Gender:Sometimes the same themes come through, but very often, due to the changed 'settings', the conclusions or
results can be quite distinctly different, even though it's basically the same language being used.

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Lena_

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #41 - on: 08.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 08.12.2012 at 10:51 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 21:30 [UT]:
Even I'm always tempted into mixing the two ways of studying a chart, I've been thinking that if something is indicated in
one way of studying one chart should at least be indicated up to a point via another.. no?

Sometimes the same themes come through, but very often, due to the changed 'settings', the conclusions or results can be quite distinctly
different, even though it's basically the same language being used.

I think the language being used isn't really the same.
Vedic uses an Eastern language(/culture) that has survived through the centuries. Western astrologicallanguage/cultures' history proves it can't remain intact for more than 20 years.
Eastern vs Western reminds me of Religion vs Technology somehow..
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Robert Heinlein
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #42 - on: 10.12.2012 at 12:48 [UT] »I agree with lena

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #43 - on: 10.12.2012 at 13:03 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 08.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Vedic uses an Eastern language(/culture) that has survived through the centuries. Western astrological language/cultures' history proves it
can't remain intact for more than 20 years.
Eastern vs Western reminds me of Religion vs Technology somehow..

Vedic has had its share of conflicts and dark ages too, though perhaps not as total as in the west. I disagree
that western history proves that astrology cannot remain intact for more than 20 years though. I would argue
that this is only the case for the last 100 years. Prior to that it had a fairly static and preserved history (whenand where it was known) with the major changes being simplifications or lack of knowledge or missing
knowledge rather than evolutions. This changed at newton and then keplar's time and then astrology went darkin the west and was reignited by theosophical societies which dumbed it down.
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #44 - on: 10.12.2012 at 14:31 [UT] »Quote from Robert Heinlein on 10.12.2012 at 12:48 [UT]:
I agree with lena

Is there any particular reason why?
Are there sources you know of which would suggest what Lena is saying? What do you agree with her on
exactly, and why?
The simple reality is that both vedic and western astrology share a common heritage. Both have evolved fromthat common ancestor for, at varying times and for varying reasons, good or bad. Modern western astrology
has all but forgotten its time lord systems and techniques, vedic astrologers have not. Vedic astrolog is behindthe curve with psychological interpretation of the chart, western astrology is not. Both are useful and both havemade advancements and evolutions to varying degrees, but one is not more 'faith based' and the other more'technological' such as Lena suggests, nor is it particularly true that western culture cannot remain intact for
more than 20 years (not by a long shot) but perhaps you'd care to provide some references to demonstrate
why you are in agreement or perhaps put forth an argument to explain why?
With the greatest of respect to Lena, nobody who has studied the history of astrology would make thatsuggestion, it may seem like that if we take the last hundred years as our only point of reference however so
it's an understandable position to take. However as someone who professes themselves to be a 'traditional
astrologer' (a term clearly too vague to apply if you mean it only to be 20th century) and a professional
astrologer you should perhaps know better. I don't mean this as an insult but as a reminder that as aprofessional astrologer your opinion may carry more clout so you may be better off being more careful withsweeping statements.
EDIT
It seems Zarathu has left again, having made this alternative profile and removing it again when people realised
it was Zarathu. Some people need masks to hide behind I guess.
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Richard Fidler

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #45 - on: 10.12.2012 at 18:32 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 08.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 08.12.2012 at 10:51 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 06.12.2012 at 21:30 [UT]:
Even I'm always tempted into mixing the two ways of studying a chart, I've been thinking that if somethingis indicated in one way of studying one chart should at least be indicated up to a point via another.. no?

Sometimes the same themes come through, but very often, due to the changed 'settings', the conclusions or results can bequite distinctly different, even though it's basically the same language being used.

Posts: 542
Gender:I think the language being used isn't really the same.
Vedic uses an Eastern language(/culture) that has survived through the centuries. Western astrological language/cultures' history proves it
can't remain intact for more than 20 years.
Eastern vs Western reminds me of Religion vs Technology somehow..

Vedic astrology may have a certain terminology that links in with Indian/Vedic culture, and yes, sure, if you
can't connect with that it may not be attractive.
I don't see myself as in any way a Vedic astrologer in any pure or traditional sense of the term. I use more orless as much western astrology as I do Vedic astrology. People sometimes describe Vedic astrology as fatalistic,or spiritual, or they contrast it with western astrology is various ways, and for the most part I don't buy it.
Perhaps I should say that Vedic astrology is in essence as versatile as western astrology in that it can beadapted to various cultural and philosophical paradigms in its final presentation. The way it is traditionallypresented is not where it ends and where is has to stay, and yet you do need to be willing to start off engaging
with its traditional presentation to some degree to tune into its unique qualities. Once that's done, though, it
becomes clear what the core principles are, and what is 'dressing' or 'typical cultural expression' open tomodification without distortion of the essence.
I've thought a lot about it over the past 14 years or so that I've been integrating Jyotish into my astrologicalapproach; I now make no apology for being non-traditional about it. When I do readings for clients, and I lookat both the western and Vedic charts, I am very sure they don't note any distinct difference in texture in theinsights I extract from the different approaches; I translate it into English and into scenarios they can relate to.
I spoke to and consulted with several astrologers in India; I could follow what they were doing, but I didn't
particularly like some of the culturally bound habits in their presentation, but I loved the baby too much tothrow her out with the bathwater!
In Light on Life, by Hart de Fouw and Robert Svoboda, the authors speak of the Jyotir Vidya as a living beingthat possesses or inspires you when you have prepared yourself. In essence this is identical to the way the
Greeks were inspired in their reformulation of more ancient forms of astrology. Vedic astrology is not(necessarily) stagnant...
The similarities between western and Vedic astrology are so glaring that I'm very surprised when westerners
aren't more curious about how Vedic astrology views the houses, for example, because I believe theirinterpretations of house meanings help to shed light on subtle nuances in house meanings that are implicit inwestern astrology and sometimes intuited and hinted at by western astrologers.
A simple example is the Jyotish association of the 5th House with the concept of intelligence. I think it would
be easy for western astrologers to understand and accept this 5th House association; we often use the term'creative intelligence' which I think comes close to what is implied. Another example would be the association of
the 3rd House with motivation level, and performing arts. It is, in a manner of speaking, an extension of the'lively busybody' quality you get from Gemini and the 'mobility' and perhaps 'agility' you could get from the
3rd House in conventional western astrology, reading between the lines just a little. I believe such houseassociations may well be as applicable to western astrology as Vedic; they're simply elaborations of thestandard associations (which we should take as a guide to the essence of a house's meaning, from which further
insights can be gained about less commonly mentioned or realized ways the houses can be viewed). The factthat there is hardly a single thing western astrology associates with a house that Vedic does not associate withthat same house also should cause one to pause before stating that Vedic astrology is on some different
frequency. In very fundamental ways the conceptual paradigm is identical (far more so than the outcomes ofusing the different sign and house systems), and where they differ, I really do believe there are some gems of
insight for western astrologers they can and should take back to their usual approaches (and vice versa).
If you disagree, then that's fine of course, but I am fairly confident of one thing; both western and Vedic
astrology in their current forms arrived in our hands after a series of comparable phases of cross-pollinationand cross cultural synthesis. To avoid it is not particularly progressive, in my humble opinion.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #46 - on: 10.12.2012 at 21:47 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 10.12.2012 at 18:32 [UT]:
If you disagree, then that's fine of course, but I am fairly confident of one thing; both western and Vedic astrology in their current forms
arrived in our hands after a series of comparable phases of cross-pollination and cross cultural synthesis. To avoid it is not particularly
progressive, in my humble opinion.

I completely agree Richard. I'd just add one thing - were it not for that cross cultural synthesis, we western
astrologers would not even have an astrology to work with. It would have died out in the middle ages following
the culling of astrology and learning generally from society thanks to the christianised romans. If it were not forthe middle eastern saving of astrological records and subsequent rumination and evolution which followed it
which in turn was linked to the East (and the jyotishis by proxy) we western astrologers would have only scraps
and legends about what astrology was or could do. The persian-arabs took the classical astrology which all but
faced extinction in the west and preserved it and enhanced it within their own culture which included traderoutes etc. to Asia and so also to the Indian astrology.
We all share a basic root stemming from Babylon and blossoming (as far as written records allow us to know) in
Hellenistic Greece and Egypt, and from there spread to India, bloomed with indigenous teachings, spreadthrough civilised europe and then almost died in the west whilst continuing in the east and the middle east
before being reintroduced to the west.
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Lena_

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #47 - on: 11.12.2012 at 21:35 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 10.12.2012 at 13:03 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 08.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Vedic uses an Eastern language(/culture) that has survived through the centuries. Western astrological language/cultures'history proves it can't remain intact for more than 20 years.
Eastern vs Western reminds me of Religion vs Technology somehow..

Vedic has had its share of conflicts and dark ages too, though perhaps not as total as in the west. I disagree that western history provesthat astrology cannot remain intact for more than 20 years though. I would argue that this is only the case for the last 100 years. Prior tothat it had a fairly static and preserved history (when and where it was known) with the major changes being simplifications or lack ofknowledge or missing knowledge rather than evolutions. This changed at newton and then keplar's time and then astrology went dark in
the west and was reignited by theosophical societies which dumbed it down.

I see it differently Paul. Maybe there is more than one ways to evaluate data/history?
For numerous of years Western Astrology had nothing to add just because there weren't many to deal with it.
It was, among many, a prohibided philosophy/art. When people started to gain interest and access to Astrology,
the boost in developing new theories, new data to be examined was tremendous. An other parameter in thatwas the progress of Science and the access in it.
200 years ago, an average person wouldn't know what a degree is nor could cope with the geometry-knowledge
needed or math so to cast a chart by hand. And there wasn't much interest in doing so since life/needs
was/were way simpler to what it is now.
On the other hand Eastern Astrology was pretty much a strong asset/part of the Eastern philosophy/culture.
The faith was there -the basic knowledge was infused in a way. And it still is imo.
Concidering the history of each, I'd say that westerns' history in front of easterns' seems as if it is a bit
promiscuous while eastern refuses to follow the human need in deeper(/different-kind-of-focus) knowledge..
That is why those two remind me of Religion and Technology..
Lena,
2 cents

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #48 - on: 11.12.2012 at 22:15 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 10.12.2012 at 18:32 [UT]:

Vedic astrology may have a certain terminology that links in with Indian/Vedic culture, and yes, sure, if you can't connect with that it may
not be attractive.
I don't see myself as in any way a Vedic astrologer in any pure or traditional sense of the term. I use more or less as much western
astrology as I do Vedic astrology. People sometimes describe Vedic astrology as fatalistic, or spiritual, or they contrast it with western
astrology is various ways, and for the most part I don't buy it. Perhaps I should say that Vedic astrology is in essence as versatile aswestern astrology in that it can be adapted to various cultural and philosophical paradigms in its final presentation. The way it istraditionally presented is not where it ends and where is has to stay, and yet you do need to be willing to start off engaging with its
traditional presentation to some degree to tune into its unique qualities. Once that's done, though, it becomes clear what the core
principles are, and what is 'dressing' or 'typical cultural expression' open to modification without distortion of the essence.

The underlined part is my favourite.
But where do you start? There are so many practical obstacles in order.
First things first, you have to understand the philosophy/culture. This should be the way to start de-coding
essence, terms and rules... no? Step by step, trying to 'translate' the old book to a modern edition you should
try out and see if the translation is accurate.. Then adjust, change the coding, re-adjust..
Quote:
I've thought a lot about it over the past 14 years or so that I've been integrating Jyotish into my astrological approach; I now make no
apology for being non-traditional about it. When I do readings for clients, and I look at both the western and Vedic charts, I am very surethey don't note any distinct difference in texture in the insights I extract from the different approaches; I translate it into English and into
scenarios they can relate to. I spoke to and consulted with several astrologers in India; I could follow what they were doing, but I didn't
particularly like some of the culturally bound habits in their presentation, but I loved the baby too much to throw her out with thebathwater!

I fully agree (underlined). Actually this is what appalled me into dealing much further at that time with Vedic
and postponed it until I have a better grasp in Western and a decency 'decode'..
Quote:The similarities between western and Vedic astrology are so glaring that I'm very surprised when westerners aren't more curious about how
Vedic astrology views the houses, for example, because I believe their interpretations of house meanings help to shed light on subtle
nuances in house meanings that are implicit in western astrology and sometimes intuited and hinted at by western astrologers.

I don't understand how western adopts the significance of Houses yet refuses to see the meaning of the
combination of them. I tried out aspects from-to Houses in order to understand how Harmonics work.
This way I can understand 2-6-10 to be in a Harmony together/connecting/speaking the same language.
I can understand how and why 4-8-12 are the most private areas and why 3-7-11 the most populated..
Why 1-5-9 are the most active/energetic, manifesting the actual development..
I also got to understand how quincux functions.. (not necessarily the ultimate truth, just something I canstrongly relate to)
The position of each house isn't random..

Quote:
The fact that there is hardly a single thing western astrology associates with a house that Vedic does not associate with that same housealso should cause one to pause before stating that Vedic astrology is on some different frequency. In very fundamental ways theconceptual paradigm is identical (far more so than the outcomes of using the different sign and house systems), and where they differ, I
really do believe there are some gems of insight for western astrologers they can and should take back to their usual approaches (and viceversa).

That I didn't quite understand. Would you mind rephrasing/elaborating please?
Lena
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #49 - on: 11.12.2012 at 22:51 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 11.12.2012 at 21:35 [UT]:An other parameter in that was the progress of Science and the access in it.

Science certainly played its part in the shaping of the history of western astrology - but in what way do you
think it did? Because from what you're saying here I think you mean something else.
Quote:
200 years ago, an average person wouldn't know what a degree is nor could cope with the geometry-knowledge needed or math so to casta chart by hand. And there wasn't much interest in doing so since life/needs was/were way simpler to what it is now.

Wow, okay we pretty much have different understandings of history. Let me ask: can you calculate a chart by
hand? Let me even say that you have access to a table of houses, do you know how to calculate the chart byhand?

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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #50 - on: 12.12.2012 at 00:20 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 11.12.2012 at 22:51 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 11.12.2012 at 21:35 [UT]:An other parameter in that was the progress of Science and the access in it.

Science certainly played its part in the shaping of the history of western astrology - but in what way do you think it did? Because fromwhat you're saying here I think you mean something else.

I had in mind astronomy, statistics, psychology and sociology. I guess the shrinking of the world (telephone, tv,
internet) played a big part of it too. Way before that I could mention Gutenberg even though the mass
production of books brought them as an option to an average man lately, round 1800? (Now I'm intrigued tofind out when was the 1st edition of an astology-book..) Anyhow,
Even plain mechanics I'd add.. If I didn't have the washing machine I wouldn't have much time studying
astrology now, would I?
What do you think I meant?
Quote:
Quote:
200 years ago, an average person wouldn't know what a degree is nor could cope with the geometry-knowledge needed ormath so to cast a chart by hand. And there wasn't much interest in doing so since life/needs was/were way simpler towhat it is now.

Wow, okay we pretty much have different understandings of history. Let me ask: can you calculate a chart by hand? Let me even say thatyou have access to a table of houses, do you know how to calculate the chart by hand?

I can draw a perfect circle, divide it by 360 perfectly and then colour it. That is as far I can get to calculating achart by hand. Unless I have an ephemeris I can do nothing more.
But I can build programs that calculate charts and data I find interesting in studying..
But I can't really tell what surprised you in the specific quoted text...
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Richard Fidler

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #51 - on: 12.12.2012 at 05:48 [UT] »[quote author=Lena_ link=1354812988/40#48 date=1355264101]Quote from Richard Fidler on
10.12.2012 at 18:32 [UT]:

Quote:
The fact that there is hardly a single thing western astrology associates with a house that Vedic does not associate withthat same house also should cause one to pause before stating that Vedic astrology is on some different frequency. In very
fundamental ways the conceptual paradigm is identical (far more so than the outcomes of using the different sign andhouse systems), and where they differ, I really do believe there are some gems of insight for western astrologers they can

Posts: 542
Gender:and should take back to their usual approaches (and vice versa).

That I didn't quite understand. Would you mind rephrasing/elaborating please?
Lena

What I meant was that Vedic astrology in nearly all cases sees the houses in the same way; there are very few
things that western astrology associates with a house that Vedic wouldn't. Very often (the 2nd House is a good
example) Vedic astrology adds further detail. I won't say it isn't also true the other way round. I would say thatmodern western astrology's use of aspects has a lot to offer Jyotish (and yet there are specific although rarely
presented contexts within which they use aspects as western astrology does)- and this again is an example of
how an explicitly stated and regularly used principle in one system is implicit in the other because they'rechildren of the same mother.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #52 - on: 12.12.2012 at 09:07 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 12.12.2012 at 00:20 [UT]:
I had in mind astronomy, statistics, psychology and sociology. I guess the shrinking of the world (telephone, tv, internet) played a big partof it too. Way before that I could mention Gutenberg even though the mass production of books brought them as an option to an average
man lately, round 1800? (Now I'm intrigued to find out when was the 1st edition of an astology-book..) Anyhow,
Even plain mechanics I'd add.. If I didn't have the washing machine I wouldn't have much time studying astrology now, would I?
What do you think I meant?

Pretty much what you said. What you're mentioning here is pretty much all 20th century. The history ofastrology spans millennia. I agree that astrology has changed a lot in the last hundred years, but I disagree
regarding the history generally. In fact Science has crippled astrology and very nearly brought about anotherdark ages with astrology. Following the enlightenment astrology was discredited, fell from its position in
Universities and the royal courts and was ridiculed and rapidly declined within the space of about a century suchthat we've had two to three centuries with little to no astrology. It was not until the end of the 19th century
and the beginning of the 20th century that astrology emerged again. Even today scientists and the scientificestablishment mocks astrology and ridicules it.
Quote:
I can draw a perfect circle, divide it by 360 perfectly and then colour it. That is as far I can get to calculating a chart by hand. Unless I
have an ephemeris I can do nothing more.
But I can build programs that calculate charts and data I find interesting in studying..

You said that 200 years ago the average person didn't know what degrees were or how to calculate a chart byhand. How then do you believe that astrologers did their astrology? Do you have any specific authors in mind?
Instead most astrologers did indeed have a good working knowledge of basic geometry - certainly enough todraw a chart by hand (which requires very little geometry), and knew the mathematics to work out planetary
positions based on ephemerides and tables of houses.
William Lilly in the 17th century for example explains how to calculate a chart by hand in the first sections of
his work Christian Astrology, going through how to use and read a table of houses as well as ephemerides andto draw up the chart. Regarding the geometry, a sophisticated knowledge was not required just as it is not
required by us today, for they used ephemerides and house tables just like we do today (or when we don't weuse computers). So I'm not sure what you mean by their not being able to draw a chart by hand.
I'm curious though as you say you can write a program to draw up a chart, but cannot do it by hand - surely
you must know how to do it by hand first?
Quote:
But I can't really tell what surprised you in the specific quoted text...

You assumptions that science has aided astrology through its history, that astrologers were incapable ofdrawing up a chart by hand, that they didn't need to cos they're lives were so simple. I can only assume you
have not read the astrological works of any or many authors prior to the turn of the 20th century to reach thisconclusion because I struggle to understand how you may have concluded that otherwise.
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #53 - on: 12.12.2012 at 22:04 [UT] »[quote author=Lena_ link=1354812988/40#41 Vedic uses an Eastern language(/culture) that has survived
through the centuries. Western astrological language/cultures' history proves it can't remain intact for morethan 20 years.
Eastern vs Western reminds me of Religion vs Technology somehow..
[/quote]Spoken like a Mercury in Taurus!

Posts: 14740
Gender:

While I could go over my collection of astrology books and find many examples of inact ideas and practices, it
might be better to think in terms of progress, more generally.
If I go to the doctor, I don't want him practising the sort of medicine that was current 20 years ago. (Myprevious doctor was like that: it was sort of scary.) If I buy a new computer, I don't want it to resemble my old
Mac Classic. Consequently, I have no problem with modern astrology as an evolving discipline.
One way it is evolving currently is in picking up more traditional astrology.
Of course, some people prefer historical consistency, and traditional astrology may be more to their liking.
Which is fine.
Just one more thought about benefics and malefics. (And possibly with some agreement from the trads here.)I think any planet can be placed well, or placed in a situation where it is stressed. A traditionalist might
consider this more in terms of essential and accidental dignities, or lack thereof. I really think in terms ofaspects, and the closer, the more keenly felt.
However, even a hard aspect to Venus or Jupiter is likely to be softer than a hard aspect to Mars or Saturn.
Venus or Jupiter may make us lazy or over-indulgent in some area of life: the "eat more chocolate" planets.
But because Mars indicates assertiveness and aggression; and Saturn can show where we feel frustrated andinadequate, their hard aspects are more difficult to navigate.
BTW, I was wrong about transiting Pluto opposing your Mercury. Hopefully that trine will help some.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #54 - on: 12.12.2012 at 22:22 [UT] »Quote from Waybread on 12.12.2012 at 22:04 [UT]:One way it is evolving currently is in picking up more traditional astrology.

I agree, I think I said this before, but I think that astrology is shaped most strongly today by the astrology
coming out of the 70s and 80s. The majority of astrologers are probably in their 40s through 60s. I think the
future of generations of astrologers will be those who are familiar with the psychological paradigms, currently
popular, as well as the traditional considerations emerging in the last 10-20 years, mostly as a result of, or
inspiration from, project hindsight.
Quote:
Just one more thought about benefics and malefics. (And possibly with some agreement from the trads here.) I think any planet can beplaced well, or placed in a situation where it is stressed. A traditionalist might consider this more in terms of essential and accidental
dignities, or lack thereof. I really think in terms of aspects, and the closer, the more keenly felt.

A traditional astrologer would consider all of the above. When it comes to actual malefic or benefic qualities
however, they're most likely to examine essential dignity and sect, and then aspects would mitigate this or alter
it in varying ways, more situationally or 'accidentally' rather than in terms of essence except in such ways thatreception may alter things. Though I suspect this is probably a bit of a grey area.
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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #55 - on: 13.12.2012 at 15:26 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 12.12.2012 at 09:07 [UT]:Pretty much what you said. What you're mentioning here is pretty much all 20th century. The history of astrology spans millennia. I agree
that astrology has changed a lot in the last hundred years, but I disagree regarding the history generally. In fact Science has crippled
astrology and very nearly brought about another dark ages with astrology. Following the enlightenment astrology was discredited, fell fromits position in Universities and the royal courts and was ridiculed and rapidly declined within the space of about a century such that we've
had two to three centuries with little to no astrology. It was not until the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century
that astrology emerged again. Even today scientists and the scientific establishment mocks astrology and ridicules it.

From what I've read so far, western astrology was an almost dead art concidering the popularity/quantity ofpeople involved with it. It revived, as you also say, the last two centuries. On the other hand though, eastern
astrology was not only vivid almost throughout its history but also a part of the eastern culture.
You are seeing it under a scope of 'quantity'; I'm after 'productivity'.
Quote:
Quote:
I can draw a perfect circle, divide it by 360 perfectly and then colour it. That is as far I can get to calculating a chart byhand. Unless I have an ephemeris I can do nothing more.
But I can build programs that calculate charts and data I find interesting in studying..

You said that 200 years ago the average person didn't know what degrees were or how to calculate a chart by hand. How then do
you believe that astrologers did their astrology? Do you have any specific authors in mind? Instead most astrologers did indeed have agood working knowledge of basic geometry - certainly enough to draw a chart by hand (which requires very little geometry), and knew themathematics to work out planetary positions based on ephemerides and tables of houses.

The modern average person (not equal to average astrologer, highlighted texts) knows how to use a p/c, has a
way to open knowledge (like books, magazines, internet), knows what a degree in a circle is and can cope with adifficult/sophisticated written text. Given the educational/technological advantage ANYONE, today, can cast achart.
The average person of older times could't. Those who interfered with astrology, at ANY level at the past, were'educated' people. Just ANYONE at that time couldn't get in touch with astrology -at least with the minimum
efford that is nowadays needed.
Quote:
William Lilly in the 17th century for example explains how to calculate a chart by hand in the first sections of his work Christian Astrology,
going through how to use and read a table of houses as well as ephemerides and to draw up the chart. Regarding the geometry, asophisticated knowledge was not required just as it is not required by us today, for they used ephemerides and house tables just like we dotoday (or when we don't we use computers). So I'm not sure what you mean by their not being able to draw a chart by hand.

I'd doubt that in 1600+ anything regarding Geometry (among others) wasn't a sophisticated knowledge.
Quote:
I'm curious though as you say you can write a program to draw up a chart, but cannot do it by hand - surely you must know how to do itby hand first?

Provided I have the ephemeris, yes, it is actually quite simple.
Quote:
Quote:
But I can't really tell what surprised you in the specific quoted text...

Quote:
You assumptions that science has aided astrology through its history,

Astronomy is Science. Statistics is Science. Isn't Astrology a combination of Astronomy and Statistics?

Quote:
that astrologers were incapable of drawing up a chart by hand, that they didn't need to cos they're lives wereso simple.

I've not said about astrologers being incapable, I'm explaining that on the top of this quote.
Quote from Lena_ on 11.12.2012 at 21:35 [UT]:
200 years ago, an average person wouldn't know what a degree is nor could cope with the geometry-knowledge needed or math so to casta chart by hand. And there wasn't much interest in doing so since life/needs was/were way simpler to what it is now.

There wasn't an interest from an average person to deal with astrology. Matters were too practical for them andthere was too much trouble to deal with astrology.
I'll give a radical example:

A farmer in 1900+ wouldn't care less if there was Astrology around. Their working hours were from sunset todawn. So no time in their schedule. If they did had an interest AND time, I'd doubt if they could understandbasic terms of a book (provided they could get a copy of a book that is).
A farmer in 21st century has the potentials in dealing with Astrology. They have spare time (because of
Science), they have the means (because of Science) and maybe a motive.
Quote:
I can only assume you have not read the astrological works of any or many authors prior to the turn of the 20th century to reach thisconclusion because I struggle to understand how you may have concluded that otherwise.

As the matter of fact I've read enough. Yet there aren't many works before the 19th century..
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EnlilMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #56 - on: 13.12.2012 at 15:34 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 15:26 [UT]:As the matter of fact I've read enough. Yet there aren't many works before the 19th century..

Posts: 1210
Gender:In my personal collection I have about 150 astrology books written before 18th century. My collection isn't evencomplete.

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Lena_

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #57 - on: 13.12.2012 at 15:35 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 12.12.2012 at 05:48 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 11.12.2012 at 22:15 [UT]:

Quote:
The fact that there is hardly a single thing western astrology associates with a house that Vedic does not
associate with that same house also should cause one to pause before stating that Vedic astrology is on
some different frequency. In very fundamental ways the conceptual paradigm is identical (far more so thanthe outcomes of using the different sign and house systems), and where they differ, I really do believe there
are some gems of insight for western astrologers they can and should take back to their usual approaches(and vice versa).

That I didn't quite understand. Would you mind rephrasing/elaborating please?
Lena

What I meant was that Vedic astrology in nearly all cases sees the houses in the same way; there are very few things that western
astrology associates with a house that Vedic wouldn't. Very often (the 2nd House is a good example) Vedic astrology adds further detail. I
won't say it isn't also true the other way round. I would say that modern western astrology's use of aspects has a lot to offer Jyotish (andyet there are specific although rarely presented contexts within which they use aspects as western astrology does)- and this again is an
example of how an explicitly stated and regularly used principle in one system is implicit in the other because they're children of the same
mother.

I'm a bit slow in understanding, but my gut feeling was never wrong so far. I feel I can relate perfectly to what
you speak of.. But I can't help it; I have to ask you if you found a way to combine/unite the two theories into asolid one before you examine a chart or you examine it both ways and then unite/combine the results..
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #58 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:05 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 15:26 [UT]:From what I've read so far, western astrology was an almost dead art concidering the popularity/quantity of people involved with it. It
revived, as you also say, the last two centuries. On the other hand though, eastern astrology was not only vivid almost throughout its
history but also a part of the eastern culture.

Was a dead art when?
It is true that astrology was practically a dead art for nearly 200 years in the west. But that's a tiny proportionof its history. You say considering the popularity of it - that's the whole point, it wasn't popular. It was revived
toward the end of the 19th century.
Prior to this, it went through a decline from about 500-1100AD - not dead, but the quality and knowledge ofastrologers plummeted in the west, but was active and alive in the arab communities. In fact learning generally(not just astrology) perished during this time. Scholars went to the arabs to learn medicine, mathematics andof course astrology, but an indigenous astrology in the west had become rare, if not quite extinct.
Quote:
You are seeing it under a scope of 'quantity'; I'm after 'productivity'.

No I understand what you are looking for, I just disagree.
Quote:The modern average person (not equal to average astrologer, highlighted texts) knows how to use a p/c, has a way to open knowledge(like books, magazines, internet), knows what a degree in a circle is and can cope with a difficult/sophisticated written text. Given the
educational/technological advantage ANYONE, today, can cast a chart.

Right but astrologers also knew how to use an astrolabe and table of houses, could cope with difficult written
text (after all it was them who was writing these sophisticated texts too) and knew what a degree was and given
their instruction any educated person could equally cast a chart provided they had access to the materials one
needed - a table of houses, an ephemeris or failing these an astrolabe. They also had access to books, almanacs
and all the rest. Nobody doubts the computer made it easier, but it sounds like you are suggesting theastrologers of old couldn't do what we can do today. All we can do differently is do it quicker and with greater
accuracy. When it comes to astroogy we're not dealing with 'any old person' we're dealing with astrologers only,
so it's irrelevant what the ordinary person could do because they didn't have to.
Quote:
I'd doubt that in 1600+ anything regarding Geometry (among others) wasn't a sophisticated knowledge.

It was for the educated, just as it is today. The only difference is that we have a greater quantity of educatedpeople. Knowledge of any complex geometry is not needed for a working astrologer with a table of houses etc.
though.
Quote:
Provided I have the ephemeris, yes, it is actually quite simple.

Right, but if you were to write a program you would not have the ephemeris. But I'm not sure why you think it
would be any less simple for someone doing it 200 or 300 years ago? Plotting planetary positions andadvancing them from their noon/midnight ephemeris position is not so great a feat of arithmetic that it
requires advanced knowledge.
Quote:
Astronomy is Science. Statistics is Science. Isn't Astrology a combination of Astronomy and Statistics?

No. On the contrary astronomy did not aid astrology through much of its history as much as astrology aided
astronomy through much of the latter's. This is during a time when both were seen as the same. Once they
became separated and we differentiate between astrology and astronomy, astrology did not advance with
science's aid, except in such ways that we did what we always did, seek more accurate planetary positional data.
Quote:
I've not said about astrologers being incapable, I'm explaining that on the top of this quote.

Yes but i'm not sure why anyone else is relevant. Nobody else was doing astrology except astrologers.
Quote:
A farmer in 1900+ wouldn't care less if there was Astrology around.

I'm sorry but a farmer in 2012 couldn't care less either. If you think farmers have lots of spare time then you
need to live on a farm for a few weeks. They get up early just as they always did.
Whilst computers and the internet make it easier, I'm not sure what the point is regarding astrology's changing
evolution every 20 years. Whether farmers have more access or less access is totally irrelevant.

As a rule the person who studies astrology today is not a working farmer any more than they were in 1600.
Quote:As the matter of fact I've read enough. Yet there aren't many works before the 19th century..

So clearly you haven't. You've obviously never heard of Morin, William Lilly, Bonatti, Al Kindi, Al Khazimi, Abu
Mashar, Sahl Ibn Bishir, Al Biruni, MashaAllah, Claudius Ptolemy, Vettius Valens, Firmicus Maternus, Dorotheusof Sidon, Marcus Manillius, Antiochus of Athens, Porphyry, Paulus Alexandrinus and countless others I can'teven think of off the top of my head.
In fact MOST astrological works are written prior to the 19th century. We have very few original astrologicalworks today. In another thousand years we'll see how many of the authors of today are still remembered.
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Lena_

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #59 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:11 [UT] »Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 15:34 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 15:26 [UT]:As the matter of fact I've read enough. Yet there aren't many works before the 19th century..

In my personal collection I have about 150 astrology books written before 18th century. My collection isn't even complete.

Proving that there were at least 100-150 people who dealt with western astrology before 18th century ..
Lets assume there were more, 1.000, 2.000.. 5.000? There have to be some astrologers who didn't publish abook. Were they enough to prove there was a substantial (compared to easter envolvement) 'quantity' ofpeople dealing with that field before the 18th century?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have the impression there are close to 2.000 books written since Ptolemys' era to
the 18th century about western astrology)

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #60 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:20 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:11 [UT]:Lets assume there were more, 1.000, 2.000.. 5.000? There have to be some astrologers who didn't publish a book. Were they enough toprove there was a substantial (compared to easter envolvement) 'quantity' of people dealing with that field before the 18th century?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have the impression there are close to 2.000 books written since Ptolemys' era to the 18th century about
western astrology)

You're quite confusing. I thought it was you who said that the reason you didn't read much prior to the 18th
century is that there wasn't much written on it. Now you think there are 2000 books written on it. How many
have you read?
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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #61 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:36 [UT] »Quote from Waybread on 12.12.2012 at 22:04 [UT]:
Quote:
Vedic uses an Eastern language(/culture) that has survived through the centuries. Western astrological language/cultures'history proves it can't remain intact for more than 20 years.
Eastern vs Western reminds me of Religion vs Technology somehow..

Spoken like a Mercury in Taurus!
While I could go over my collection of astrology books and find many examples of inact ideas and practices, it might be better to think interms of progress, more generally.
If I go to the doctor, I don't want him practising the sort of medicine that was current 20 years ago. (My previous doctor was like that: it
was sort of scary.) If I buy a new computer, I don't want it to resemble my old Mac Classic. Consequently, I have no problem with modern
astrology as an evolving discipline.
One way it is evolving currently is in picking up more traditional astrology.
Of course, some people prefer historical consistency, and traditional astrology may be more to their liking. Which is fine.

If I understood what your point is, I'll agree with you. I just don't prefer one to another. I strongly believe bothsides, tradition and evolution, should be used simultaneously..
Quote:
Just one more thought about benefics and malefics. (And possibly with some agreement from the trads here.) I think any planet can beplaced well, or placed in a situation where it is stressed. A traditionalist might consider this more in terms of essential and accidental
dignities, or lack thereof. I really think in terms of aspects, and the closer, the more keenly felt.
However, even a hard aspect to Venus or Jupiter is likely to be softer than a hard aspect to Mars or Saturn. Venus or Jupiter may make us
lazy or over-indulgent in some area of life: the "eat more chocolate" planets. But because Mars indicates assertiveness and aggression;and Saturn can show where we feel frustrated and inadequate, their hard aspects are more difficult to navigate.
BTW, I was wrong about transiting Pluto opposing your Mercury. Hopefully that trine will help some.

Saturn cannot be all 'bad' and show only areas of frustration and inadequacy or Mars just assertiveness andaggression..
This is how we try to fit our understanding of a persons charachter in a chart..
I strongly believe that planets are energies not eaasily explained within some words. The uniqueness of a chart,
for me, speaks of the uniqueness of the energies. My natal Saturn could speak volumes on my inadequacies
while yours about you being practical and ambitious...
Other than that (stressing Saturn) I fully agree with you again
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EnlilMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #62 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:45 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:11 [UT]:
Proving that there were at least 100-150 people who dealt with western astrology before 18th century ..
Lets assume there were more, 1.000, 2.000.. 5.000? There have to be some astrologers who didn't publish a book. Were they enough to

Posts: 1210
Gender:prove there was a substantial (compared to easter envolvement) 'quantity' of people dealing with that field before the 18th century?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have the impression there are close to 2.000 books written since Ptolemys' era to the 18th century about
western astrology)

Astrology has never been practiced by a large percentage of the population. Not even today.
Frankly I'm not even sure where this argument is going. I'm a bit lost now.
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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #63 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:51 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:20 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:11 [UT]:Lets assume there were more, 1.000, 2.000.. 5.000? There have to be some astrologers who didn't publish a book. Were
they enough to prove there was a substantial (compared to easter envolvement) 'quantity' of people dealing with that field
before the 18th century?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have the impression there are close to 2.000 books written since Ptolemys' era to the 18th
century about western astrology)

You're quite confusing. I thought it was you who said that the reason you didn't read much prior to the 18th century is that there wasn't
much written on it. Now you think there are 2000 books written on it. How many have you read?

Maybe you're mistaking me to another poster?
Just read the thread again, the only thing I could find is Quote from Lena_ on 11.12.2012 at 21:35 [UT]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 10.12.2012 at 13:03 [UT]:
Vedic has had its share of conflicts and dark ages too, though perhaps not as total as in the west. I disagree that western
history proves that astrology cannot remain intact for more than 20 years though. I would argue that this is only the casefor the last 100 years. Prior to that it had a fairly static and preserved history (when and where it was known) with the
major changes being simplifications or lack of knowledge or missing knowledge rather than evolutions. This changed atnewton and then keplar's time and then astrology went dark in the west and was reignited by theosophical societies which
dumbed it down.

I see it differently Paul. Maybe there is more than one ways to evaluate data/history?

For numerous of years Western Astrology had nothing to add just because there weren't many todeal with it. It was, among many, a prohibided philosophy/art. When people started to gain interest and access to Astrology, theboost in developing new theories, new data to be examined was tremendous. An other parameter in that was the progress of Science andthe access in it.

If that is what you are talking about, I'd say it is still valid. 2000 books in 1700+ years would mean an averageof 1.2 books per year.. Is that a good analogy?
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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #64 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:53 [UT] »Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 16:45 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:11 [UT]:
Proving that there were at least 100-150 people who dealt with western astrology before 18th century ..
Lets assume there were more, 1.000, 2.000.. 5.000? There have to be some astrologers who didn't publish a book. Were
they enough to prove there was a substantial (compared to easter envolvement) 'quantity' of people dealing with that field
before the 18th century?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have the impression there are close to 2.000 books written since Ptolemys' era to the 18th
century about western astrology)

Astrology has never been practiced by a large percentage of the population. Not even today.
Frankly I'm not even sure where this argument is going. I'm a bit lost now.

Agreed. Paul and I are debating in if western astrology in relation to eastern is more evolutionary-like (myopinion) or not (Pauls' opinion).
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EnlilMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #65 - on: 13.12.2012 at 16:59 [UT] »More to the subject, I've actually recently posted this another thread, but it's appropriate here:
The traditional concepts of benefic/malefic, and good/evil, isn't purely or even largely, a moral statement.
Posts: 1210
Gender:Astrologically they refer to "conventional goods or evils". What I mean by that, is a conventional good issomething that is generally considered by humans to be good. Some examples are health, children, a job,happiness, friends, and a necessary amount of wealth for comfort. Conventional evils are illness, homelessness,sadness, poverty, having no friends, etc.
Now these don't have much to do with what an individual person feels about those things. For instance many
people don't want children, and some people don't need friends or don't care if they are poor.
So a malefic and benefic planet deals with concrete conditions regardless of how the person feels about them.
This is sort of like life itself, where things can be forced on us regardless of how we feel about it.
For example, we might look at being rich as something generally good. Most of us would love to not worry
about money. Sure there are downsides to being rich, but it's generally good. Being sick is generally seen as
something bad. You as an individual can have a positive outlook, and sometimes good things can happen from
illness, but most of us don't want to get sick to begin with.
When you do a traditional style reading, the astrologer simply tries to paint a picture of reality. This doesn'tmean you don't use tact and compassion. As William Lilly said, don't (I'm paraphrasing) "don't oppress theclient with their chart". However I also think it's a disservice to the client to not be honest. Every chart has
some really nice things, and some bad things as well. Life is the same way.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #66 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:03 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:51 [UT]:Maybe you're mistaking me to another poster?

Erm you said it in post 55.
Maybe we're talking cross purposes here. I'm going to just ignore that whole tangent now cos I'm getting
confused what points were trying to be made.
EDIT
For what it's worth I thought I was arguing that western astrology's history has not changed "every 20 years"
by which I take you to mean, alarmingly frequently.
Separate to that is the argument regarding western astrology being more technological and less faith based, in
contrast to vedic.
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EnlilMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #67 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:05 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:53 [UT]:Agreed. Paul and I are debating in if western astrology in relation to eastern is more evolutionary-like (my opinion) or not (Pauls'
opinion).

Posts: 1210
Gender:

Vedic astrology is largely based on Greek (or Hellenistic because much of it isn't from Greece) astrology. Bothwere integrated into their respective spiritual worldviews. In the West, this took the form of Hermeticism,
Neoplatonism, and Stoicism. Vedic of course is integrated into Hinduism.
When astrology essentially died out in the 17th century in the West, we threw the baby out with the bathwater.
India kept theirs going. In the modern era in the West, we replaced spirituality with non-astrological elements
like Jung, psychology, and evolution.

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #68 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:18 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:05 [UT]:Right but astrologers also knew how to use an astrolabe and table of houses, could cope with difficult written text (after all it was them
who was writing these sophisticated texts too) and knew what a degree was and given their instruction any educated person could equallycast a chart provided they had access to the materials one needed - a table of houses, an ephemeris or failing these an astrolabe. They
also had access to books, almanacs and all the rest. Nobody doubts the computer made it easier, but it sounds like you are suggesting theastrologers of old couldn't do what we can do today. I dodn't suggest such a thing for astrologers
All we can do differently is do it quicker and with greater accuracy. When it comes to astroogy we're not dealing with 'any old person'
we're dealing with astrologers only, so it's irrelevant what the ordinary person could do because they didn't have to.
Quote:
I'd doubt that in 1600+ anything regarding Geometry (among others) wasn't a sophisticated knowledge.

It was for the educated, just as it is today. The only difference is that we have a greater quantity of educated people. Knowledge of any
complex geometry is not needed for a working astrologer with a table of houses etc. though.
Quote:
Provided I have the ephemeris, yes, it is actually quite simple.

Right, but if you were to write a program you would not have the ephemeris. An ephemeris is precalculated planetary movement. Thus it
could be calculated by a programm as well. I don't have astronomical knowledge -nor I think I'll ever have- so no, I personally won't
create a programm without an ephemeris. I've constructed programms to give me what I wanted as data to study yet I used an
ephemeris. But I'm not sure why you think it would be any less simple for someone doing it 200 or 300 years ago? that confused me a bit,
I'll come back at it Plotting planetary positions and advancing them from their noon/midnight ephemeris position is not so great a feat ofarithmetic that it requires advanced knowledge.
Quote:
Astronomy is Science. Statistics is Science. Isn't Astrology a combination of Astronomy and Statistics?

No. On the contrary astronomy did not aid astrology through much of its history as much as astrology aided astronomy through much of
the latter's. This is during a time when both were seen as the same. that confused me again.. If they were united in their beggining, how
didn't one help the other?Once they became separated and we differentiate between astrology and astronomy, astrology did not advancewith science's aid, except in such ways that we did what we always did, seek more accurate planetary positional data. Chiron and theouter planets were discovered by Astronomers... no? Until the Uranian planets are discovered (prooving the theory of Uranian astrology) I
can't see how Astronomy didn't aid Astrology..
Maybe, at the beggining Astrology and Astronomy (united) were concidered Science and then after not. Today Astronomy IS science and I
clearly think the knowledge Astronomy offers is, if nothing else, the basis of how Astrology is accepted today -in contrast to other'forecasting techniques'
Quote:
I've not said about astrologers being incapable, I'm explaining that on the top of this quote.

Yes but i'm not sure why anyone else is relevant. Nobody else was doing astrology except astrologers. An astrologer has a professionallike knowledge in astrology. I'm not an astrologer, I'll most probably never be yet I contribute as a unit is the acceptance of Astrology..
Quote:
A farmer in 1900+ wouldn't care less if there was Astrology around.

I'm sorry but a farmer in 2012 couldn't care less either. If you think farmers have lots of spare time then you need to live on a farm for a
few weeks. They get up early just as they always did. Farmers, at least in Greece, have tonns of free time in relation to those lived 200
years ago..
Whilst computers and the internet make it easier, I'm not sure what the point is regarding astrology's changing evolution every 20 years.
Whether farmers have more access or less access is totally irrelevant. I don't see it that way. I know a lot of people who changed
occupation from something else to becomming an astrologer. The access in knowledge makes the difference for my eyes..
As a rule the person who studies astrology today is not a working farmer any more than they were in 1600.
Quote:As the matter of fact I've read enough. Yet there aren't many works before the 19th century..

So clearly you haven't. You've obviously never heard of Morin, William Lilly, Bonatti, Al Kindi, Al Khazimi, Abu Mashar, Sahl Ibn Bishir, Al
Biruni, MashaAllah, Claudius Ptolemy, Vettius Valens, Firmicus Maternus, Dorotheus of Sidon, Marcus Manillius, Antiochus of Athens,
Porphyry, Paulus Alexandrinus and countless others I can't even think of off the top of my head.Ahm, you might have meant this quote ofmine before.. But, all off them were about western astrology or after Ptolemys' time?
will be back later

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #69 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:21 [UT] »Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 17:05 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:53 [UT]:Agreed. Paul and I are debating in if western astrology in relation to eastern is more evolutionary-like (my opinion) or not(Pauls' opinion).

Vedic astrology is largely based on Greek (or Hellenistic because much of it isn't from Greece) astrology. Both were integrated into theirrespective spiritual worldviews. In the West, this took the form of Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, and Stoicism. Vedic of course is integrated
into Hinduism.
When astrology essentially died out in the 17th century in the West, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. India kept theirs going. In
the modern era in the West, we replaced spirituality with non-astrological elements like Jung, psychology, and evolution.

I think we could broadly sum up the shared ancestors of all astrology, vedic and western included, ispredominantly Babylonian, then Greek and Egyptian (often the two are indistinguishable for the 500 years BC
when astrology becomes what we'd recognise).
In addition I think we can agree that jyotish astrology was predominantly a greek import, fused withindigenous astrology (particularly the lunar mansions which are likely to be in turn persian and in turn
babylonian anyway, though possibly original), and that the 7th - 11th centuries in particular saw a to-ing andfro-ing between arabic sources with some (albeit minor) jyotish understandings which in turn were probably
originally greek anyway but lost to the arabs, and that all this culture and learning made its way back west in
the middle ages. Then astrology limped along through the middle ages until some revival at the renaissanceand then briefly strengthened again for the next 2-3 hundred years and then gradually declined following theenlightenment only to resuscitate again at the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century and grewin strength between the 60s and 80s.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #70 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:33 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 17:18 [UT]:An ephemeris is precalculated planetary movement. Thus it could be calculated by a programm as well. I don't have astronomical
knowledge -nor I think I'll ever have- so no, I personally won't create a programm without an ephemeris. I've constructed programms togive me what I wanted as data to study yet I used an ephemeris.

Erm, ye a ephemeris is calculated by computers today, and by astronomers/astrologers in the days of old.
Ephemeris and pen and paper back 300 years ago - computer today. It's the same really, an astrologer who
knows how to use their computer program today can do what the astrologer who knew how to read theephemeris could do 300 years ago.
Quote:
that confused me again.. If they were united in their beggining, how didn't one help the other?

When they were fused, money was funded into astronomical accuracy for one major purpose: more accurate
astrology. Hence astrology was the thing which funded astronomical research and so helped it. Once theyparted ways, astronomy was the focus and astrology was delegated to superstition.
Quote:
Chiron and the outer planets were discovered by Astronomers... no? Until the Uranian planets are discovered (prooving the theory of
Uranian astrology) I can't see how Astronomy didn't aid Astrology..
Maybe, at the beggining Astrology and Astronomy (united) were concidered Science and then after not. Today Astronomy IS science and I
clearly think the knowledge Astronomy offers is, if nothing else, the basis of how Astrology is accepted today -in contrast to other'forecasting techniques'

Hopefully this makes more sense. It is up for grabs whether discovery of chiron is really important toastrologers, to some it is, to some it isn't. It isn't so much that astronomy has aided astrology so much thatastrology has been an unwelcome curio surrounding astronomy and picking the carcass of their findings for new
scraps to adorn themselves with. Astronomy is not aiding astrology. Astronomy is doing its own thing whilst
shooting poisonous glances at astrology, and astrology is picking up whatever crumbs falls from the table.
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Richard Fidler

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #71 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 13.12.2012 at 17:21 [UT]:
Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 17:05 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:53 [UT]:Agreed. Paul and I are debating in if western astrology in relation to eastern is more evolutionary-like (myopinion) or not (Pauls' opinion).

Vedic astrology is largely based on Greek (or Hellenistic because much of it isn't from Greece) astrology. Both werePosts: 542
Gender:integrated into their respective spiritual worldviews. In the West, this took the form of Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, andStoicism. Vedic of course is integrated into Hinduism.
When astrology essentially died out in the 17th century in the West, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. India kept
theirs going. In the modern era in the West, we replaced spirituality with non-astrological elements like Jung, psychology,
and evolution.

I think we could broadly sum up the shared ancestors of all astrology, vedic and western included, is predominantly Babylonian, thenGreek and Egyptian (often the two are indistinguishable for the 500 years BC when astrology becomes what we'd recognise).
In addition I think we can agree that jyotish astrology was predominantly a greek import, fused with indigenous astrology (particularly the
lunar mansions which are likely to be in turn persian and in turn babylonian anyway, though possibly original), and that the 7th - 11th
centuries in particular saw a to-ing and fro-ing between arabic sources with some (albeit minor) jyotish understandings which in turn were
probably originally greek anyway but lost to the arabs, and that all this culture and learning made its way back west in the middle ages.
Then astrology limped along through the middle ages until some revival at the renaissance and then briefly strengthened again for the
next 2-3 hundred years and then gradually declined following the enlightenment only to resuscitate again at the end of the 19th century,
beginning of the 20th century and grew in strength between the 60s and 80s.

Interesting how this conversation has ended up being more about astrology's history than malefics andbenefics, but I think that's fine. I think this occurred as a result of the fact that in the more traditional forms ofastrology, east or west, this principle is treated more thoroughly and with more subtlety than in modern
astrology. In fact many modern astrologers are quite repulsed by the terms malefic and benefic, considering
them too 'judgmental' perhaps. I think that these terms have a place when they're understood. You don't needto translate the astrological terms into crude statements to clients or whoever about their career prospects
being 'bad', for example. For me the ways in which natural benefics can become malefics, and vice versa, or
natural benefics can become super benefics, and vice versa, contribute to the richness and subtlety with which
traditional forms of astrology can describe life.
Getting clear on the history takes time, and certainly my own picture is only gradually filling out. Thanks forcontributing to that Paul.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #72 - on: 13.12.2012 at 17:48 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT]:
I think this occurred as a result of the fact that in the more traditional forms of astrology, east or west, this principle is treated morethoroughly and with more subtlety than in modern astrology. In fact many modern astrologers are quite repulsed by the terms malefic andbenefic, considering them too 'judgmental' perhaps.

That is at least 90% of the problem in my view. In my experience there are some people who no matter how
you explain the concept or what way you word it, will stick to an a priori assumption that to use terms like
malefic or benefic planets, means to imply that the person you apply them to is evil. Or that, through ways
never explained or articulated, this somehow means that the person has no free will or that you are judging
them. No reason is ever given as to why that would be concluded. The problem is just sticking to theassumptions and not listening to what the terms mean. Its frustrating because actually the concept is notdifficult and is not a judgement of the individual but a discernment regarding the qualitative influence of agiven planet's signification.
Quote:
Getting clear on the history takes time, and certainly my own picture is only gradually filling out. Thanks for contributing to that Paul.

The two books I've read which clears up the history for me were Jim Testers History of Western Astrology, whichis good but perhaps a little outdated. And then the better one is Nick Campion's A History of Western Astrology(comes in two parts).
Of course reading actual traditional literature is obviously helpful too.
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Re: Malefics - Benefics

SergeyMember« Reply #73 - on: 13.12.2012 at 20:39 [UT] »Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 16:59 [UT]:When you do a traditional style reading, the astrologer simply tries to paint a picture of reality. This doesn't mean you don't use tact andcompassion. As William Lilly said, don't (I'm paraphrasing) "don't oppress the client with their chart". However I also think it's a
disservice to the client to not be honest. Every chart has some really nice things, and some bad things as well. Life is the same way.

Sounds like a very fair way of looking at it, makes we want to get a reading from you.

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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #74 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:04 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT]:` In fact many modern astrologers are quite repulsed by the terms malefic and benefic, considering them too 'judgmental' perhaps.

Couldn't you just write THAT at the very beggining?
[mumbling] one lousy line was enough to explain what I'm trying to say for some pages now...[/mumbling]

Even I don't consider myself an astrologer, beyond the terms malefic/benefic I also don't like the word
'karmic'.. Especially when western astrologers use it..
Quote:
I think that these terms have a place when they're understood.

Then why use those terms in the first place? Why not use words that don't create such confusion andmisdirection?
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Richard Fidler

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #75 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:06 [UT] »[quote author=Lena_ link=1354812988/60#74 date=1355432659]Quote from Richard Fidler on
13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT]:`
Quote:
I think that these terms have a place when they're understood.

Then why use those terms in the first place? Why not use words that don't create such confusion and misdirection?

Posts: 542
Gender:...because the confusion and misdirection lies not in the terms?
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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #76 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:09 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 13.12.2012 at 17:03 [UT]:EDIT
For what it's worth I thought I was arguing that western astrology's history has not changed "every 20 years" by which I take you tomean, alarmingly frequently.
Separate to that is the argument regarding western astrology being more technological and less faith based, in contrast to vedic.

It was the analogy I saw in the systems. Evolutuion - Technology, Tradition -Religion. Sorry for the
missunderstandment/confusion.
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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #77 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:15 [UT] »[quote author=Richard Fidler link=1354812988/60#75 date=1355432801]Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012
at 21:04 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT]:`
Quote:
I think that these terms have a place when they're understood.

Then why use those terms in the first place? Why not use words that don't create such confusion and misdirection?

...because the confusion and misdirection lies not in the terms?

Very True yet practical issues arise.
When someone I know uses a term or a phrase I usually know how it is meant. (Culture? Era? Cirsumstances?)
When someone else uses it I have to find out... Unecessary speny time if you ask me.
Either way the Philosophy arises from the chart in question.. no?
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Lee Rutland
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #78 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:16 [UT] »Quote from _Paul_ on 13.12.2012 at 17:48 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT]:
I think this occurred as a result of the fact that in the more traditional forms of astrology, east or west, this principle istreated more thoroughly and with more subtlety than in modern astrology. In fact many modern astrologers are quite
repulsed by the terms malefic and benefic, considering them too 'judgmental' perhaps.

That is at least 90% of the problem in my view. In my experience there are some people who no matter how you explain the concept orwhat way you word it, will stick to an a priori assumption that to use terms like malefic or benefic planets, means to imply that theperson you apply them to is evil. Or that, through ways never explained or articulated, this somehow means that the person has no free
will or that you are judging them. No reason is ever given as to why that would be concluded. The problem is just sticking to the

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assumptions and not listening to what the terms mean. Its frustrating because actually the concept is not difficult and is not a judgementof the individual but a discernment regarding the qualitative influence of a given planet's signification.
Quote:
Getting clear on the history takes time, and certainly my own picture is only gradually filling out. Thanks for contributing
to that Paul.

The two books I've read which clears up the history for me were Jim Testers History of Western Astrology, which is good but perhaps alittle outdated. And then the better one is Nick Campion's A History of Western Astrology (comes in two parts).
Of course reading actual traditional literature is obviously helpful too.

I think one of the main problems, in fact probably THE main problem is that we, people in general, went
through this "enlightened" phase where we got the notion that we were really very damn smart, and that we
knew a lot, and invented a lot of Very Cool Toys...like the internal combustion engine....and got thrust into thisvery weird society that gave us things like freedom and spare time and an environment where we didn't have tofight to survive every single day, and we got the notion "hey, I'm all THAT".....and completely lost sight of theReal World all around us.....of which we still know....absolutely nothing.
Il nuce, we got cocky.
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SergeyMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #79 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:25 [UT] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 13.12.2012 at 21:16 [UT]:
I think one of the main problems, in fact probably THE main problem is that we, people in general, went through this "enlightened" phase
where we got the notion that we were really very damn smart, and that we knew a lot, and invented a lot of Very Cool Toys...like theinternal combustion engine....and got thrust into this very weird society that gave us things like freedom and spare time and an
environment where we didn't have to fight to survive every single day, and we got the notion "hey, I'm all THAT".....and completely lostsight of the Real World all around us.....of which we still know....absolutely nothing.
Il nuce, we got cocky.

I guess I don't follow. Why is this a problem really? Are you saying no one is researching anything new
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anymore because we're all of the belief that we're all that?

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Lee Rutland
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #80 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:34 [UT] »Quote from Sergey on 13.12.2012 at 21:25 [UT]:

I guess I don't follow. Why is this a problem really? Are you saying no one is researching anything new anymore because we're all of thebelief that we're all that?

No, I am saying that we, as a generation, went through a phase, especially with the advent of psychology,
where we went of on a tangent, and essentially tried to re-write the rule of Astrology. In all fairness, in the early
20th century the old astrology works weren't widely available to most of us.
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I think where we are now is a very profitable place, where the old merges with the new.
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SergeyMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #81 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:38 [UT] »Ah, agreed.

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Richard Fidler
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #82 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:46 [UT] »[quote author=Lena_ link=1354812988/60#77 date=1355433359]Quote from Richard Fidler on
13.12.2012 at 21:06 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 21:04 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 17:39 [UT]:`
Quote:
I think that these terms have a place when they're understood.

Posts: 542
Gender:Then why use those terms in the first place? Why not use words that don't create such confusion andmisdirection?

...because the confusion and misdirection lies not in the terms?

Very True yet practical issues arise.
When someone I know uses a term or a phrase I usually know how it is meant. (Culture? Era? Cirsumstances?)
When someone else uses it I have to find out... Unecessary speny time if you ask me.
Either way the Philosophy arises from the chart in question.. no?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the Philosophy arises from the chart in question'?
As I see it, these terms are traditional. It's simply the language used to convey an idea.
Simply put, no matter how much you may true to philosophize around it, we don't enjoy it when someone isaggressive towards us. We don't enjoy it when we are deprived of things that are useful to us (money, freedom,mobility, emotional support). That we may develop character in the process is not the point. We don't like it
when it happens. We call it 'malefic'. Malefic, in my books, simply refers to stuff we don't enjoy, and creatures
like to enjoy....
Benefics bring benefits that we recognize instantly; 'ah, I enjoy this!'.
That it may ultimately spoil us, perhaps, is not the point. The experience is one of pleasantness, and creatures
have some common tastes in this respect (more money, freedom, emotional support, etc.).
Now, in practice it's traditionally very nuanced. You may have a natural malefic being a temporary benefic, andyou then have a 'rogue' (just a manner of speaking, no offence, judgement, or confusion, or misdirection
intended) that has an uncharacteristic ability and tendency to bring benefits that can be enjoyed, but, there will
be some unavoidable rough edges, since having your 'cupcake' delivered by a 'rugged bandit' is, well, likely toleave a distinctive mark on the experience (and perhaps the cupcake).
Now, if that natural malefic happens to be well placed by sign over and above being a temporal benefic, well,that 'rugged bandit' may in fact be an impressive 'uniformed soldier' (who, despite his handsome and dashingappearance is not really a cupcake sort of guy- actually, he often inflicts grievous harm for a living). These
personifications of the various permutations can help us describe someone's reality with greater precision.
If the terms are to be changed and yet retain their core meaning, it will merely be mincing words and diluting
the clarity of the intended idea, in my opinion. If traditional terminology is to be changed it needs to be
replaced with something at least equally clear and effective for the same purpose. In this case, I think the
traditional terms are really quite useful, because frankly, in our experience of life, everything is not benefic all
the time... but by all means use all the tact and diplomacy, and discreetly phrased good advice you can muster
in breaking to a recipient the news relayed by the placement of the malefics in their chart.
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EnlilMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #83 - on: 13.12.2012 at 21:58 [UT] »The thing is, if an astrologer predicts good things, no one ever calls the astrologer "judgmental" or "taking
away their free will". Only when the astrologer predicts bad things.

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Richard Fidler
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #84 - on: 13.12.2012 at 22:03 [UT] »Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 21:58 [UT]:The thing is, if an astrologer predicts good things, no one ever calls the astrologer "judgmental" or "taking away their free will". Only
when the astrologer predicts bad things.

Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightPosts: 542
Gender:OR
Is the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?
If it's the former, the astrologer may overestimate his/her ability to discern what the client/recipient needs toknow; if it's the latter then the astrologer may reveal things tactlessly, perhaps hurtfully, and yet it allows thechart to do the talking, and can an astrologer always know what a client needs to know?
The best astrologers, in my humble opinion, detach from praise or blame reactions from recipients; and suchastrologers are likely later, if not immediately, to be greatly appreciated.
I have a friend who I taught the basics of astrology to. He sometimes did readings for people. I left town forquite a long time, and when I returned every old client I did a reading for said "**** did a reading for me andhe said you only told me the bad stuff!". I started questioning my own approach... was I really so negative? I
didn't directly confront him about it, but when we met he sprouted something about how important it is toencourage people, etc etc.. no doubt alluding to our differences of approach.
Then it happened that a mutual friend of ours consulted both of us about a rather important legal battle they
were embroiled in. I advised that they turn on the heel and head in the opposite direction with their tailbetween their legs. He said there were several indications supporting them (perhaps he used more planets than
I did!).
Our mutual friends lost out very badly, since they chose to follow the 'pleasant and encouraging advice'.
Sometimes astrologers deal with harsh realities and people who need real answers about these. There's a place
for tact, but I've noticed that some of the best work I do is giving people fairly stern lectures about how they'recreating their own problems (bear in mind we all tend to blame everything and everybody else for our
problems). I think most of them can tell I'm on their side, so they normally appreciate it (perhaps it's my
Saturn in the 9th as a temporary benefic- the good and useful wisdom and counsel of a blunt and negative oldbugger).

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #85 - on: 13.12.2012 at 23:47 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 21:46 [UT]:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the Philosophy arises from the chart in question'?
As I see it, these terms are traditional. It's simply the language used to convey an idea.
Simply put, no matter how much you may true to philosophize around it, we don't enjoy it when someone is aggressive towards us. We
don't enjoy it when we are deprived of things that are useful to us (money, freedom, mobility, emotional support). That we may develop
character in the process is not the point. We don't like it when it happens. We call it 'malefic'. Malefic, in my books, simply refers to stuff
we don't enjoy, and creatures like to enjoy....
Benefics bring benefits that we recognize instantly; 'ah, I enjoy this!'.
That it may ultimately spoil us, perhaps, is not the point. The experience is one of pleasantness, and creatures have some common tastes
in this respect (more money, freedom, emotional support, etc.).
Now, in practice it's traditionally very nuanced. You may have a natural malefic being a temporary benefic, and you then have a 'rogue'(just a manner of speaking, no offence, judgement, or confusion, or misdirection intended) that has an uncharacteristic ability andtendency to bring benefits that can be enjoyed, but, there will be some unavoidable rough edges, since having your 'cupcake' delivered by
a 'rugged bandit' is, well, likely to leave a distinctive mark on the experience (and perhaps the cupcake).
Now, if that natural malefic happens to be well placed by sign over and above being a temporal benefic, well, that 'rugged bandit' may infact be an impressive 'uniformed soldier' (who, despite his handsome and dashing appearance is not really a cupcake sort of guy- actually,
he often inflicts grievous harm for a living). These personifications of the various permutations can help us describe someone's reality withgreater precision.
If the terms are to be changed and yet retain their core meaning, it will merely be mincing words and diluting the clarity of the intended
idea, in my opinion. If traditional terminology is to be changed it needs to be replaced with something at least equally clear and effective
for the same purpose. In this case, I think the traditional terms are really quite useful, because frankly, in our experience of life,
everything is not benefic all the time... but by all means use all the tact and diplomacy, and discreetly phrased good advice you canmuster in breaking to a recipient the news relayed by the placement of the malefics in their chart.

I can fully relate to what you are giving us here Richard..
I'm not sure if the same convenience (for a malefic at a chart to be a temp benefic and v.v) is given in western
theory. If there is then I haven't met it yet.
---------------------I don't like it when, in order to 'see' an enjoyed/disliked past event in a chart while failing, to wonder if I should
use Dwads or Uranian or Harmonics or anything 'fancy' just to 'prove' the owners' (of the chart) likes/dislikes ofthe event itself. Just because 'Saturn/Jupiter has to be a malefic/benefic' ?
And I have thought of the possibility not knowing enough. Actually, in that sense, nobody 'proved' to be able
to discover in an event chart the natives' likes or dislikes; not even to when it comes to life changing events...
Am I wrong?
What I'm trying to say here is, it shouldn't be that hard in some cases... Maybe we are clinging too much to'tradition' while, at the same time, waste too much effort and time in 'novelties'?
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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #86 - on: 13.12.2012 at 23:50 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 22:03 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?

That is easy..: Both. A good astrologer, imo, would be the one who knows what proportion to use of each..
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Richard Fidler

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #87 - on: 14.12.2012 at 04:52 [UT] »[quote author=Lena_ link=1354812988/80#85 date=1355442427]Quote from Richard Fidler on
13.12.2012 at 21:46 [UT]:

What I'm trying to say here is, it shouldn't be that hard in some cases... Maybe we are clinging too much to 'tradition' while, at the sametime, waste too much effort and time in 'novelties'?

Novelties?
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Richard Fidler
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #88 - on: 14.12.2012 at 04:54 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 23:50 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 22:03 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?

Posts: 542
Gender:That is easy..: Both. A good astrologer, imo, would be the one who knows what proportion to use of each..

I think that's a good answer Lena, and yet it's a razor thin line between the two, because you can't really be
doing the latter if your approach is the former...
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Richard Fidler

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #89 - on: 14.12.2012 at 14:51 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 14:39 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 22:03 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?

Posts: 542
Gender:Nothing is in the chart other than what you project into it, they aren't natural phenomena they are man made. Simply products of thehuman mind, like thoughts or words...... Seems to be an odd question to me?

With astrology this 'projection' follows well established rules, and these rules, although 'imposed' and'projected' are considered capable of extracting from a chart something more coherent, or accurate, than would
be gained from a totally random bunch of projected ideas or 'rules of interpretation'.
The question is not about whether there is objectively something there to begin with. It's about how theastrological information is used (however you happen to view the process of deriving it).
It's about how astrologers intervene and edit what applying the rules yields according to their presumed'wisdom' regarding what the client, in their view, may need to or could bear to hear, as opposed to full andunfettered disclosure, merely translating what the application of the rules yields without any deliberatemoderation.
In other words, are people consulting astrologers or astrology?
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #90 - on: 14.12.2012 at 15:29 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 22:03 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?

That's a really good question Richard.
I think it's one that each astrologer must answer for themselves because there's likely to be no 'one size fits all'approach with it. Some are clearly less about interpreting/translating the message of the chart and more about
being an agony aunt or a shoulder to cry in with some astrology thrown in too even if just as a guide.
Others are more about translating the symbolism and making sense of it, regardless of how this may affect theclient.
I think where most astrologers lie is in between - or rather, a bit of both. The two are not mutually exclusive,
we can take on two roles. We can first play the role of translator, and once the translation is done, play the role
to dispense their own wisdom.
I try to be first and foremost a translator/interpreter - I translate the chart into a meaningful representationthat is understood by the querent with the goal of raising consciousness about the issue at hand in order tohelp them solve the problem or gain the insight that they came to me for in the first place. Second to that I
may also offer advice or listen quietly whilst they get something off their chest, in some ways that's all part ofour role - however when I do this I normally try to make it clear that this is just my advice, and not comingfrom the chart, though obviously stemming from an understanding of the chart itself and having interactedwith others with similar chart factors.
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #91 - on: 14.12.2012 at 15:33 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 15:14 [UT]:
Astrologers are being consulted, 'astrology' does not exist as far as we know, unless you count certain natural phenomena such as theMoon and tides, etc.

Define existence.
Astrology is not natural phenomena like Moon and tides, it is the signification and symbolism and meaning that
we associate/attach to those pheneomena. It is true that nothing is in the chart except what you project onto
it, though rather it is that there is obviously data in the chart, its meaning is what you project onto it. This is
astrology. That is how it works. We can all skip that step because we can all assume undrstanding of it.
Richard's question then is do you dispense of your own wisdom, or do you simply interpret your understanding(via your own projections of the signification) of the data represented in the chart?
It is not a difficult question. Abstracting it into a subtler layer of complexity does not inform us on the issue.
Unless you had some other point to make in which case it may be clearer just to bluntly make it. Otherwise
what are you trying to convey?
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Richard Fidler
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #92 - on: 14.12.2012 at 15:40 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 15:14 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 14.12.2012 at 14:51 [UT]:With astrology this 'projection' follows well established rules, and these rules, although 'imposed' and 'projected'
are considered capable of extracting from a chart something more coherent, or accurate, than would be gained from a
totally random bunch of projected ideas or 'rules of interpretation'.

Posts: 542
Gender:The question is not about whether there is objectively something there to begin with. It's about how the astrologicalinformation is used (however you happen to view the process of deriving it).
It's about how astrologers intervene and edit what applying the rules yields according to their presumed 'wisdom' regarding
what the client, in their view, may need to or could bear to hear, as opposed to full and unfettered disclosure, merelytranslating what the application of the rules yields without any deliberate moderation.
In other words, are people consulting astrologers or astrology?

Astrologers are being consulted, 'astrology' does not exist as far as we know, unless you count certain natural phenomena such as theMoon and tides, etc.
Can you name a well established rule, if so I imagine by well established you mean established in some kind of consensual way by agroup of astrologers. Which gets us into this :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_%28philosophy%29
Many astrologers don't appear to be all that wise, I can only think of a handful who seem to possess much noteworthy intelligence. In fact
you could argue in consensual reality terms being interested in the subject suggests a profound absence of wisdom, not least in the light of
its often nasty history.

Astrology does exist; this is an astrology forum. Call me simple, but I'm not interested in why astrology does
not exist. Astrology is all about established rules; you know this.
Consensual reality; there are countless groups with their own consensual or shared views. What you willconsent to is up to you; who cares what some people think of some astrologers!
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #93 - on: 14.12.2012 at 16:19 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 14:39 [UT]:
Nothing is in the chart other than what you project into it, they aren't natural phenomena they are man made. Simply products of thehuman mind, like thoughts or words...... Seems to be an odd question to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_system

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Examples of symbolic systems include natural language, programming languages, mathematical logic, and nonverbal communication. Symbols can also be intuitively generated to represent specific meanings.

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #94 - on: 14.12.2012 at 17:44 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 17:26 [UT]:
I'd probably say as the planets have such a plethora of postive and negative functions or manifestations, as I see them, they are
somewhat redundant terms.

How do you find out which of the terms along the spectrum are the most appropriate by looking at the chart?
Or do you contend that you cannot know this?
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #95 - on: 15.12.2012 at 03:51 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 16:11 [UT]:
Quote from Enlil on 13.12.2012 at 15:34 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 13.12.2012 at 15:26 [UT]:As the matter of fact I've read enough. Yet there aren't many works before the 19th century..

In my personal collection I have about 150 astrology books written before 18th century. My collection isn't even complete.

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Proving that there were at least 100-150 people who dealt with western astrology before 18th century ..
Lets assume there were more, 1.000, 2.000.. 5.000? There have to be some astrologers who didn't publish a book. Were they enough toprove there was a substantial (compared to easter envolvement) 'quantity' of people dealing with that field before the 18th century?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have the impression there are close to 2.000 books written since Ptolemys' era to the 18th century about
western astrology)

We'll never know how many astrologers there were in past eras. We might think "not too many" given themathematics one had to know to construct charts. But Classical Studies scholars have looked at astrology in
Antiquity, when there clearly was a popular form of astrology practiced in street fairs; and then literate people,
then as now, studied astrology as amateurs, rather than as professionals.
In Europe, astrology was a university subject for centuries, typically aligned with medicine. People believedthat the planets had a big impact on health, so part of a doctor's education was learning astrology.
It began to die out in the Renaissance, as medicine made advances without necessary reference to astrology,
and as the Copernican Revolution cast the earth-centered model of the solar system into disrepute. The church
had long had an on-again, off-again view towards astrology, which went "off" at this time, abetted by
Reformation leaders condemning it. Astrology has always had its critics, but their voices predominated by the
16th century. However, a major work published at this time was William Lilly's Christian Astrology, thefoundation of a lot of horary astrology today.
The low point in astrology was the 18th-early 19th centuries (restricted largely to farmers' almanacs and a few
practitioners) with a revival in the late 19th century.
As others have noted, astrology had a different and more successful history in India.
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Waybread
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #96 - on: 15.12.2012 at 04:05 [UT] »I have to add that I probably got hooked on modern astrology, because ca. 1990, what else was there?
However, in reading Avelar and Rebiero's above-mentioned textbook, I was pleasantly surprised to find out how
much overlap there is with modern astrology.
Signs, planets, houses, major aspects? They were there then and they are here now.
Sure, modern and traditional (or should I say, neo-traditional) depart in different directions. But one always
has to be a connoisseur of what one reads and accepts. There was a lot of really weird and negative traditional
astrology in the past, and a lot of woo-woo material today that leaves me dumfounded that a rational person
could actually believe this stuff. But also, a lot of wisdom in both types.
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Re: this question: Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain
insight
OR
Is the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?
I don't think you can easily separate the two. If you consider the astrologer's own personality (as symbolized
in her horoscope) she's going to find some behaviours irritating in other people, and some dynamics to bepositive. If she's heavily Cancerian, she may find Caps and Aquas to be cold and aloof. So ideally we give justthe facts, but astrologers are not value-free, impersonal conduits of information.
I think the astrologer has to present an honest assessment, but there are ways to do this tactfully andsupportively if the assessment is negative; deeply respecting the individual's human dignity.
I also think there is value in a "tough love" approach to people who seemingly author their own misfortunes,
but then the recipients of a more confrontational style oftentimes take offense, and then won't listen to theastrologer's advice. So it becomes self-defeating most times. (Ask me how I know.)

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #97 - on: 15.12.2012 at 06:11 [UT] »Quote from Waybread on 15.12.2012 at 04:05 [UT]:
I have to add that I probably got hooked on modern astrology, because ca. 1990, what else was there?
However, in reading Avelar and Rebiero's above-mentioned textbook, I was pleasantly surprised to find out how much overlap there is withmodern astrology.
Signs, planets, houses, major aspects? They were there then and they are here now.
Sure, modern and traditional (or should I say, neo-traditional) depart in different directions. But one always has to be a connoisseur ofwhat one reads and accepts. There was a lot of really weird and negative traditional astrology in the past, and a lot of woo-woo material
today that leaves me dumfounded that a rational person could actually believe this stuff. But also, a lot of wisdom in both types.
Re: this question: Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?
I don't think you can easily separate the two. If you consider the astrologer's own personality (as symbolized in her horoscope) she's going
to find some behaviours irritating in other people, and some dynamics to be positive. If she's heavily Cancerian, she may find Caps andAquas to be cold and aloof. So ideally we give just the facts, but astrologers are not value-free, impersonal conduits of information.
I think the astrologer has to present an honest assessment, but there are ways to do this tactfully and supportively if the assessment isnegative; deeply respecting the individual's human dignity.
I also think there is value in a "tough love" approach to people who seemingly author their own misfortunes, but then the recipients of amore confrontational style oftentimes take offense, and then won't listen to the astrologer's advice. So it becomes self-defeating mosttimes. (Ask me how I know.)

This can work both ways Way, but, how you know?
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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #98 - on: 15.12.2012 at 06:47 [UT] »Quote from Richard Fidler on 14.12.2012 at 14:51 [UT]:
Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 14:39 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 13.12.2012 at 22:03 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?

Nothing is in the chart other than what you project into it, they aren't natural phenomena they are man made. Simply
products of the human mind, like thoughts or words...... Seems to be an odd question to me?

With astrology this 'projection' follows well established rules, and these rules, although 'imposed' and 'projected' are considered capable ofextracting from a chart something more coherent, or accurate, than would be gained from a totally random bunch of projected ideas or'rules of interpretation'.
The question is not about whether there is objectively something there to begin with. It's about how the astrological information is used(however you happen to view the process of deriving it).
It's about how astrologers intervene and edit what applying the rules yields according to their presumed 'wisdom' regarding what theclient, in their view, may need to or could bear to hear, as opposed to full and unfettered disclosure, merely translating what theapplication of the rules yields without any deliberate moderation.
In other words, are people consulting astrologers or astrology?

I think this is also easy.. It depends mostly on the client and what they seek in their consult..
If a client is visiting for a forecast without being even a bit willing to see themselves under a different scope
then the astrologer would be a pretty much 'channeled' into giving their (astrologers) own subjectivity in thetranslation of the chart. (==consulting astrologer).
If the client is cooperating/willing in understanding themselves under a possibly different to their own
opinion/scope, helping the astrologer, then things will *click* and fall into their place in translating a chart(==colsulting astrology).
So it is really up to the clients intentions (unconscious or otherwise) and cooperation..
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Re: Malefics - Benefics

Lena_

Ex Member« Reply #99 - on: 15.12.2012 at 07:18 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 14.12.2012 at 16:09 [UT]:
Quote from Richard Fidler on 14.12.2012 at 15:40 [UT]:

Astrology does exist; this is an astrology forum. Call me simple, but I'm not interested in why astrology does notexist. Astrology is all about established rules; you know this.
Consensual reality; there are countless groups with their own consensual or shared views. What you will consent to is up toyou; who cares what some people think of some astrologers!

The belief systems exist, thus this forum, but the evidence that celestial phenomena (real or projected) shapes or reflects what happens
on this planet seems lacking.
I don't know this, quite the opposite and I don't know any Astrologers who think there are 'rules' either.
Some seem to care.

When Sabian Symbols were introduced, Astrologers tried to 'fit' them in charts so to see if that could be auseful tool for them. Statistics is what is going to 'keep the tool' in surface or not.
Astrology was not constructed upon psychic abilities. So, technically, there isn't a matter of belief in a vaguer
sense.
There were documented observations (e.g. 'timed' flodding rivers in Babylon, destroying plantations) whose
process as data was pointing towards the planetary movement. The history of astrology has a lot of Sciencehidden in it and it's not just Statistics.
What is to be found is the equation and 'Rules' are the factors in this equation.
If you have delt with Math, you'd know that extracting an equation from a multifactored process, you needfirstly to 'find' all the factors and firlmy define them. And this is pretty much the hardest part.
In my eyes, the predefinition is still under process.
We are not lacking in evidence but the process in determinding the quality of those evidence.
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Lena_
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #100 - on: 15.12.2012 at 09:31 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 15.12.2012 at 08:09 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 15.12.2012 at 07:18 [UT]:When Sabian Symbols were introduced, Astrologers tried to 'fit' them in charts so to see if that could be a useful tool forthem. Statistics is what is going to 'keep the tool' in surface or not.
.

I wish you luck in assessing the Sabians statistically, some hazy experimental design issues with these utternaces. My hunch is it will keep
the Psychology department in fts of laughter for weeks were you to suggest it to them.
A Parapsychology Dept may give you a slighter longer segment of their time, but maybe not enough to get to the sit down with a cup of
tea and slice of cake stage.

Did I say or imply I'm in any kind of study about Sabian Symbols?
Unless you have a psychic ability into reading my writting, I'd appreciated if you didn't try to twist my sayings.
If you don't understand them, ask before you reply. The latter works for the rest of us pretty well.
Other than that, keep in mind that whatever your opinion in what Psychology as a Science is/stands for is,maybe, just maybe, others have a better/deeper background/grasp with/of it.
Being humble very often equals to being smart.
Lena
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Re: Malefics - Benefics

Lena_

Ex Member« Reply #101 - on: 15.12.2012 at 10:13 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 15.12.2012 at 08:02 [UT]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 14.12.2012 at 19:55 [UT]:

Can you give us examples of the kinds of things that you mean for determining the likely place on that spectrum that aplanet falls.
.

An unaspected Moon in Cancer in the 4th house. On the one hand you might think someone will be a 'good enough' mother or at least lookafter the child’s fundamental physical and emotional needs adequately. Then you note through the absence of coloured lines most of thetool book required to do so is disconnected from or unavailable to this, on the face of it, protective or over protective Moon. Stick this in achat where Air is absent, how are they going to think about their inadequacies.? All of a sudden the Moon could end up functioning poorly,in the astrologer’s mindset, and child’s feeding, bathing, sheltering, cuddling, developmental..... needs are possibly not being met well.
Unless the mother is with you and often with you, and you have the skills and background to probe into this, you are unlikely to knowmuch about it one way or the other, or how to improve their situation.

I think other, important, factors are missing in your example..
Just inner planets are into consideration? Are there douplicated signs/houses? Is 4th/10th axis involved? Just
Ptolemaic aspects?
I strongly believe that absence of Air and an unaspected Moon in Cancer in 4th aren't enough for astrology tocome to conclusions..
They might be more than enough for an astrologer though.
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Richard Fidler
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #102 - on: 15.12.2012 at 10:41 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 15.12.2012 at 10:26 [UT]:
Quote from Lena_ on 15.12.2012 at 10:13 [UT]:
I think other, important, factors are missing in your example..

Quote:
Unless you have a psychic ability into reading my writting, I'd appreciated if you didn't try to twist my sayings. If you

Posts: 542
Gender:don't understand them, ask before you reply. The latter works for the rest of us pretty well.

Lena unless English is your 1st Language, or you have a very very good grasp of it, and you do not appear to have this, you will reallystruggle to understand my posts. So probably best to avoid them, as seeking to explain them to you I suspect will not be a good use of
my or your time.

Ironic words from you Rachamim, since in your haste to sneer at the sincere contributions of others, you seem
to take little time to spell and even properly construct your own sentences, and you would have far less excuse,since you would not only claim English as your first language, you clearly consider yourself extraordinarily
eloquent--- but for the most part it's pompous froth with little substance. You insult people blatantly, regularly;
it's not funny and it's not clever.
Your posts are well understood by everyone, and I think I speak for many when I say we are less awed by yourintellect than you are.
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dog8818

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #103 - on: 15.12.2012 at 15:46 [UT] »This is the third thread that I've come to (the bullying thread and planets in detriment threads being theothers) where serious and interesting discussion gets totally derailed by one person. Absolutely and totally
derailed. It ticks me off, because I come to this forum to learn and share and thread after thread has people
irate and defending themselves to a self-satisfied smirker.
The only way to stop it is to never ever ever ever respond to the hook, the goat, the insult, the slightcompliment-before-the-denigrating remark. Completely ignoring the troll will up the ante for awhile, but if
everyone just says NO, he'll find other forums to haunt.
Or perhaps forum admin will take notice once he has infested enough threads.
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Re: Malefics - Benefics

Waybread
Member« Reply #104 - on: 15.12.2012 at 22:31 [UT] »Quote from Rachamim on 15.12.2012 at 08:02 [UT]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 14.12.2012 at 19:55 [UT]:

Can you give us examples of the kinds of things that you mean for determining the likely place on that spectrum that aplanet falls.
.

An unaspected Moon in Cancer in the 4th house. On the one hand you might think someone will be a 'good enough' mother or at least lookafter the child’s fundamental physical and emotional needs adequately. Then you note through the absence of coloured lines most of thetool book required to do so is disconnected from or unavailable to this, on the face of it, protective or over protective Moon. Stick this in a

Posts: 14740
Gender:chat where Air is absent, how are they going to think about their inadequacies.? All of a sudden the Moon could end up functioning poorly,in the astrologer’s mindset, and child’s feeding, bathing, sheltering, cuddling, developmental..... needs are possibly not being met well.
Unless the mother is with you and often with you, and you have the skills and background to probe into this, you are unlikely to knowmuch about it one way or the other, or how to improve their situation.

I think the moon as one's literal mother, with a heavy overlay of Freudian, "blame Mom for your neurosis"
psychology, is one of the worst examples of modern psychological astrology. Yet I am not sure how many
modern astrologers think this way today.
The moon is easily one's experience of the mother in a chart. But so is the MC, the IC, or the entire axis,
depending upon whom you ask. But the actual mother? We'd be hard-pressed to say so if we see charts ofmultiple siblings with the moon in different placements, let alone Mom's own chart.
In my own analysis of charts, I oftentimes believe that you really cannot see particular things, notably about
the future. But then again, maybe I still have a lot to learn;because other astrologers might handle thesame issues with the same chart and their reply will be spot-on. The inadequacies of a particular astrologer are
not the inadequacies of the entire discipline; any more than there is something wrong with a Beethoven sonata
just because a fledgling pianist plays it badly.
Rachamim: are you the old Charley, Rusty, Nixx, Language, and multiple other incarnations?
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #105 - on: 16.12.2012 at 16:44 [UT] »Here very recommended reading for anyone who has not already
http://www.amazon.com/The-Luminaries-Psychology-Horoscope-Psychological/dp/08772
87503#_PNS
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #106 - on: 16.12.2012 at 18:46 [UT] »RachaminLiz Greene explicitly links the Moon with the mother archetype and explicitly states that the mother,
inexplicably, really is very often like the natal chart description.
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Forum Admin

Astro Forum
Administrator

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #107 - on: 18.12.2012 at 09:04 [UT] »Troll post, and many troll-feeding posts have been deleted from this thread.
Participants are invited to report obvious trolls much earlier, instead of feeding them.

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Astrochologist
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #108 - on: 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT] »Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.

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Lena_

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #109 - on: 20.12.2012 at 07:53 [UT] »Quote from Astrochologist on 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.

What do you think of Saturn in Leo 2nd?
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Yukionna
Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #110 - on: 20.12.2012 at 07:56 [UT] »Quote from Astrochologist on 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.

Can you quote some traditional source for this statement please?

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Yuki

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Margaret

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #111 - on: 20.12.2012 at 23:00 [UT] »Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightPosts: 1126

OR
Is the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?
A couple months ago, a woman gave me her husband's chart. He had suffered the loss of his mother and a
beloved mother figure in a few short months. The woman (my client) wanted to be assured that there were no
more losses coming. I looked at the chart and saw clearly that there was another loss just as bad in about threemonths. I could say it was a woman, and not seventh or fifth house related. I thought either a sister or a close
cousin. She was happy because her husband's sister was in good health and only in her early fifties and hedidn't have any close female cousins. I said great.
And his sister passed away very, very unexpectedly three months later.
That's why astrologers have to interpret the chart (gently). If she didn't want to know the answer, she would
not have asked me. I often suspect people who all sunshine aren't confident enough in their own readings.

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HelenaMarieEx Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #112 - on: 20.12.2012 at 23:48 [UT] »Hi Margaret,
what did you see in the chart that made you sure he would lose his sister?

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Margaret

Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #113 - on: 21.12.2012 at 00:13 [UT] »It was a third hit of a sequence... and the first two had timed out exactly. It was easy to see there was a third
on the horizon.

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #114 - on: 21.12.2012 at 14:38 [UT] »Quote from Margaret on 20.12.2012 at 23:00 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?
A couple months ago, a woman gave me her husband's chart. He had suffered the loss of his mother and a beloved mother figure in a few
short months. The woman (my client) wanted to be assured that there were no more losses coming. I looked at the chart and saw clearly
that there was another loss just as bad in about three months. I could say it was a woman, and not seventh or fifth house related. I
thought either a sister or a close cousin. She was happy because her husband's sister was in good health and only in her early fifties andhe didn't have any close female cousins. I said great.
And his sister passed away very, very unexpectedly three months later.
That's why astrologers have to interpret the chart (gently). If she didn't want to know the answer, she would not have asked me. I often
suspect people who all sunshine aren't confident enough in their own readings.

Does your opinion vary upon the confidence/acceptance of the client?
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Astrochologist

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #115 - on: 21.12.2012 at 17:10 [UT] »Quote from Lena_ on 20.12.2012 at 07:53 [UT]:
Quote from Astrochologist on 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.

What do you think of Saturn in Leo 2nd?

Poor placement, Saturn in Leo is weak and Saturn in Taurus isn't good really, delay /restriction in making
money, and gaining possessions.
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Lee Rutland
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #116 - on: 21.12.2012 at 21:05 [UT] »Quote from Astrochologist on 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.

I think that would be "accidental dignity", don't you mean?

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Lee Rutland

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #117 - on: 21.12.2012 at 21:13 [UT] »Quote from Margaret on 20.12.2012 at 23:00 [UT]:
Here's a question:
Is an astrologer supposed to dispense their own wisdom, using astrology as a tool to gain insightORIs the astrologer simply the translator, the messenger of what's in the chart?
A couple months ago, a woman gave me her husband's chart. He had suffered the loss of his mother and a beloved mother figure in a few
short months. The woman (my client) wanted to be assured that there were no more losses coming. I looked at the chart and saw clearly
that there was another loss just as bad in about three months. I could say it was a woman, and not seventh or fifth house related. I

Posts: 3301

thought either a sister or a close cousin. She was happy because her husband's sister was in good health and only in her early fifties andhe didn't have any close female cousins. I said great.
And his sister passed away very, very unexpectedly three months later.
That's why astrologers have to interpret the chart (gently). If she didn't want to know the answer, she would not have asked me. I often
suspect people who all sunshine aren't confident enough in their own readings.

I think..........
The Astrologer is simply the messenger, translating something he or she has learned, but that, hopefully has
gained a bit of insight,
and with it Wisdom,
to pass on to the person inquiring.
That has always kept me honest; the fact that this whole thing was put together by "Somebody Else", and I'mjust reading it for the client, so to speak.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #118 - on: 21.12.2012 at 21:23 [UT] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 21.12.2012 at 21:05 [UT]:
Quote from Astrochologist on 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.
I think that would be "accidental dignity", don't you mean?

If its anything it's that, but I'm looking forward to an answer to Yukionna's question on this. I suspect thisfrom some "natural" rulership or something but no such affinity exists in the tradition which uses these terms.
We have houses of joy and association by Chaldean order for example but neither relate Jupiter to the 12th.
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #119 - on: 22.12.2012 at 01:21 [UT] »Hi Paul, yes I agree with what you are saying about Jupiter and the 12th house. I looked up "An
introduction to Astrology" by William Lilly and see that on page 34 he says of the 12th house "It hascosignificators l and D. So even although he does not directly link Jupiter with the 12th house hecertainly links Pisces with it. Lilly says of the 12th "Saturn does much delight in that house , for he isnaturally the author of msichief". Lilly says F naturally rejoices in the 11th house, (as you would know).
However it is worth noting that the 12th house is given signification of large animals - great cattle or horses,
oxen, elephants etc (and I think whales for that matter). So with Pisces being linked, and large animals, it
is understandable that Jupiter would be in the picture too.
In modern astrology it is taught that Jupiter in the 12th lent a protective influence. As the 12th is often
linked to large institutions, hospitals, and also to karma, perhaps the implication is that Jupiter there relates
to expansive or beneficial karma, although I must say I would not particularly want to go to hospital, or be
institutionalised.
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Margaret
Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #120 - on: 22.12.2012 at 02:12 [UT] »I think..........
The Astrologer is simply the messenger, translating something he or she has learned, but that, hopefully has
gained a bit of insight,
and with it Wisdom,
Posts: 1126

to pass on to the person inquiring.
That has always kept me honest; the fact that this whole thing was put together by "Somebody Else", and I'mjust reading it for the client, so to speak.
That's exactly how I look at it. I say, "I can tell you what the chart says, only the chart holder can say what itmeans."
Re: Juppy in the 12th.... As someone with a 12th house stellium - including G, I'm very skeptical this is abeneficial placement. Unless some slight preferment for natural rulership (as Paul says.)

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Richard Fidler

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #121 - on: 22.12.2012 at 05:46 [UT] »Regarding Jupiter in the 12th. As I understand it Jupiter is weakened (there may be some loss of worldly
opportunity or wealth- which may manifest as willingly given charity at times-, there may be a falling out withconventional religious figures, teachers or institutions, etc.), BUT, the 12th House benefits from Jupiter (sothere is abundant inner spiritual growth, happiness in remote foreign countries, etc). It may also mean few ofany hidden enemies and, on the contrary, hidden benefactors...

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Yukionna
Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #122 - on: 22.12.2012 at 09:23 [UT] »I've learned that Jupiter can mitigate some of the negative effects of the 12th (or any difficult house) provided
it is of good Esse, so in domicile or exaltation dignity by sign.
If it's not dignified it can cause trouble for the topics related with the house.
Unless of course there's some kind of reception with an essentially strong planet or light.
Saturn rejoices in the 12th because it's in its joy there through its affinity with limitations and the more sternsite of life. But I don't believe Saturn 'does much delight in that house'. In the best of circumstances he's
dignified and -through being strengthened accidentally by being in joy- is able to act and act constructively.
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Waybread

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #123 - on: 22.12.2012 at 23:24 [UT] »Quote from Astrochologist on 19.12.2012 at 21:43 [UT]:
Jupiter in detriment is "bad luck"
However Jupiter in the 12th is in accidental exaltation, so has a guardian angel effect.

Are you mixing apples and oranges? I think of exaltations and falls as part of traditional astrology, not modern
astrology. If we use traditional astrology, then Jupiter in Capricorn could still be in its own terms or face,depending upon the degree. An "accidental" dignity would be something like being in the 10th house conjunctthe MC or being supported by some well-situated planets.
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In traditional astrology, the 12th house "of the bad spirit" was considered a rotten location for most things.
Saturn got a boost out of the 12th, but apparently this was because he enjoyed misery.
Even in modern astrology, the 12th retains its meaning as "the house of self-undoing" where we have to guard
against being our own worst enemies.
If we allow exaltations and falls in modern astrology, then we have to look at a long history of modern
astrologers negating the notion of "good" and "bad" placements.
Moreover, in modern astrology, some solid trines and sextiles would help out most planets.
You seem to be using modern astrology, with its conflation of signs and houses, in the idea that Jupiter is"accidentally dignified" in the 12th house. I suppose this relates to the conflation of Pisces and the 12th house.
But even some of us moderns do not equate signs and houses. A good book on this topic is Deborah
Houlding, The Houses: Temples of the Sky.
The big exception here was medical astrology, which did match up signs and houses in numerical order.
Jupiter in Capricorn, depending upon the house, can confer an appreciation of old things like history books,
antiques, or old houses; or according to some sources, administrative ability. Jupiter in the 12th would be agood placement for someone committed to a contemplative or monastic life. Then if the ruler on the house
cusp (Saturn) is well situated, that could give Jupiter in the 12th a boost, as well.

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Lena_
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #124 - on: 23.12.2012 at 00:03 [UT] »You are quoting both phrases of his and I can't figure out which one is the debatable..

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28buckMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #125 - on: 23.12.2012 at 00:22 [UT] »I have seen jupiter in 12th manifesting as the "guardian angel" effect, or at least a kind of good luck protecting
the individual, but not so much as super lucky in other areas.

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Lee Rutland
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #126 - on: 23.12.2012 at 14:16 [UT] »Quote from 28buck on 23.12.2012 at 00:22 [UT]:
I have seen jupiter in 12th manifesting as the "guardian angel" effect, or at least a kind of good luck protecting the individual, but not somuch as super lucky in other areas.

I have read this in various places, but honestly cannot confirm it with any of my clients over the years. I havesome with Jupiter in the 12th, but just cant verify the "guardian angel" effect in any way.

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Lena_Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #127 - on: 23.12.2012 at 19:57 [UT] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 23.12.2012 at 14:16 [UT]:
Quote from 28buck on 23.12.2012 at 00:22 [UT]:
I have seen jupiter in 12th manifesting as the "guardian angel" effect, or at least a kind of good luck protecting theindividual, but not so much as super lucky in other areas.
I have read this in various places, but honestly cannot confirm it with any of my clients over the years. I have some with Jupiter in the
12th, but just cant verify the "guardian angel" effect in any way.

That reminded me of a couple of incidents in my childhood.
I left the hand of the person who was responsible for me and crossed alone a highway. I can still remember'flying' since it is something I'm reproducing freequently in my dreams. I woke up in a ditch about 50 meters
away. I was held in hospital for four days for precautionary reasons as I didn't have a single scratch. The driverof the 4 tone truck though was in deep shock and got released some days later than me..
A year after, I managed to cross through the glass balcony door of our appartment in the 13th floor. All I got
was a small wound in the base of my thump, no stitches were necessary.
I'm generally quite healthy and don't get physically sick considering some nasty habbits. Physical wounds gethealed very quickly without special treatment and have never broken a bone or ever got stitched. I don't know
how much a Jupiter in the 12th is actually the reason. But when I came against that as a meaning, it madesense and accepted it.
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Deborah
Ex Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #128 - on: 26.02.2013 at 01:53 [UT] »Quote from 28buck on 23.12.2012 at 00:22 [UT]:
I have seen jupiter in 12th manifesting as the "guardian angel" effect, or at least a kind of good luck protecting the individual, but not somuch as super lucky in other areas.

I have two close relatives with F. One was my mom with F 10:6h in the 12th.
My mother was not a lucky person by any stretch of the imagination, but she was a very generous, giving soul,quite compassionate towards everyone. All of us who were graced by her presence, learned a lot from her. I wastold she had a Kesari Yoga of the BF but it did not bring a material reward, a spiritual one from all I can see.
She is now deceased and gone to her just rewards.
The other is my eldest daughter who has F 0j59' which I see as a critical degree in the Cardinal signs.
She is generous with the time she gives when she wants to give it, in other words, doled out according to her
dictates (volunteers at the Food Bank, gives to the needy, etc).....but not too generous otherwise if asked .
Hard to explain. Kind of a pick & choose what fits generosity about her.
In some ways they are very much alike, (my mother and my eldest daughter) in that they both spent a LOT ofmoney , both wasted quite a bit, and both don't hold onto material things (especially my mother who gave allaway), but the daughter keeps a good material life going with her husband and home....but believes inthrowing things out too, or donating them instead of holding on to material possessions.
So in some ways for her it's been a godsend (being born with G in her 12th) from what I can see....
My mom did not critique who she gave to like her granddaughter, she just gave to everyone who asked.
But then again, my daughter's B is also in f and Mom's was g
I have E in the 6th in j and my understanding is E finds it's "joy" here. I wonder if it's because, it's a houseof work and seldom is lazy. I also have my D in the 5th, said to be it's "joy" house. It doesn't feel very joyful
however, but I suppose there is something to it anyway. I think my husband is the best thing that ever
happened to and for me, and D is m [ here. I didn't have an overabundance of boyfriends, etc prior to him.
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Dima Gur

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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #129 - on: 11.10.2021 at 11:26 [UT+1] »Hello everyone,
An article on the topic of "Neptune as a benefic".
In it there's an argument that traditional aspect doctrine and sign rulership may indicate Neptune's role as abenefic.
There's also a discussion on Uranus and Pluto's roles as probable malefics.
Would love to hear what you think.
Posts: 137https://www.gurastro.com/2021/10/neptune-as-benefic.html

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IRIS70
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #130 - on: 11.10.2021 at 16:16 [UT+1] »Τhe author of that article offers a scheme that shows a tree with BqD, semiqC,oE,nG and a similar tree for
the A. In the missing places, he uses the newly discovered outers OIJ. Just because I is put instead of F
in l, to cover the p aspect to the B, this does not make him a benefic.
I have read that I is the higher octave of D too, but I is mostly related to deception, nebulousness,
weakness, addictions, illusions, dependency, idolisation none of which is desirable even in the sign that he rules-

l- I in it's best expression, it may offer imagination, inspiration, compassion and spirituality. Do not forget,
though that ALL planets have both a positive and a negative expression. Even G, the greater malefic, provides
discipline, order and builds the backbone to withstand adversities, which are essencial for us to obtain our
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Gender:goals, through hard work and so G is related to ambition and independence too. If G is dignified, he functions
well and can work to provide all the above. The lesser malefic, E, is related to aggression, action, desire,
courage all of which are positive and desirable to all of us. He is needed to force us to get off our coach and act,
not hide at the sight of a danger, but fight instead, do something! So if E is in dignity, he functions well andhe can supply all that.
So I, much like all planets does have some positive expression, but in general, it is not a benefic-so I feel atleast!-

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cris_meMember

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #131 - on: 12.10.2021 at 11:40 [UT+1] »That's an interesting article. However, I do not understand why we're ignoring the difference between the Sun
and the Moon. When we switch the planets,
Saturn opp the Moon and Uranus opp to the Sun,
Neptune trines the Moon and Jup trines the Sun
I see this as a relevant distinction. Neptune can be a benefic in contact with the Moon. I'm having the trine
right now and it's amazing. My "intuition" is bordering psychic abilities. It's mind blowing. I do believe howeverthat the Sun handles Neptune's energy quite differently.

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Gender:And in that 2nd chart, we have an inconjunct / 150 degrees Sun-Neptune. Which sounds right to me: theseenergies are so completely different that they might have some initial attraction, but end up in frustration andstruggle. Well, Nep trine Sun may soften the Sun for a while, but...is that a good thing for the Sun's wants andgoals? Doubt it.
There's a whole philosophical discussion about the benefits of Buddhism and ego dissolution; but I think we can
all agree that the goals of Neptune are no achievable while living in society; maybe if you isolate on top ofsome mountain.
this article makes a lot of sense to me.
so, thanks for sharing, Dima Gur!

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Dima Gur
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Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #132 - on: 13.10.2021 at 22:30 [UT+1] »cris_me:Thank you so much
It's an interesting thought, the difference between the moon side and the sun side in those thema-mundi type
charts.
I'll have to devote some thought into it.

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IRIS70Member

Re: Malefics - Benefics« Reply #133 - on: 15.10.2021 at 11:48 [UT+1] »I in any aspect, even the p, still holds his negative expression. For me, I is bad news in most cases! I only
accept that there is something positive about him for those-few- of us who are very spiritual, artistists, dosome job that involves compassion such as work in an institution for sick people/orphanage/the elderly etc. The
increased hyper-sensitivity the aspect BpI provides is not desirable otherwise. It is TOO much! The p stands
for energies working together without any obstacle. All that hypersensitivity/vulnerability as to what? If there isan outlet in a form of art, OK, but maybe the person will seek an outlet via substances, if arts is not available tohim and that is without any resistance p , as the energies BI work as a unit.

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