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The case for clockwise houses (Read 1482 times)

Oscillating
Ex Member

The case for clockwise houses« on: 01.10.2010 at 14:24 [UT+1] »I've been reading up on different house systems lately (as I am very tempted to "convert" to Koch) and I've
come across this idea in Robert Hand's Horoscope Symbols.
While signs correspond to the yearly rythm, starting with the Spring Euqinox at the Aries Point, going on to theSummer Solstice in Cancer, Autumn Equinox in Libra and finishing with the Winter Solstice n Capricorn, houses
correspond to the daily rythm: Sun on IC is a midnight birth, Sun on Asc is a sunrise birth, Sun on MC is a
midday birth and Sun on Dsc is an evening birth.
Therefore it makes much more sense to examine houses clockwise, starting with the IC and moving towards theAsc, instead of the numerical order. For me this picture of houses is a much better description of how anindividual develops and how houses build on each other and also explains why the Fourth house represents
both your family and roots but also old age and 'the end of the matter'. Hand has some very interesting ideas
on why the cadent houses are seen as so difficult based on the clockwise model.
This perspective really made me look at houses with a fresh eye, instead of just equating house meanings with'corresponding' sign meanings.

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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #1 - on: 01.10.2010 at 17:19 [UT+1] »Yes, even if you do not adopt his proposal (he's obviously long-since abandoned it), his ideas are thoughtprovoking.

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Linda Harris
Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #2 - on: 01.10.2010 at 23:24 [UT+1] »The ascendant or "birth degree" is not just a hypothetical or random place to begin a chart....it is physicallythe sign on the horizon at the time of birth! It defines the 'beginning'.
So clockwise wouldn't make sense to me.
LainiePosts: 17033

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #3 - on: 01.10.2010 at 23:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 01.10.2010 at 23:24 [UT+1]:
The ascendant or "birth degree" is not just a hypothetical or random place to begin a chart....it is physically the sign on the horizon at thetime of birth! It defines the 'beginning'.
So clockwise wouldn't make sense to me.
LainieSigns are human constructs based on conventional agreements about where they start, how long they are, howplanets are placed in them, and in which direction they are measured. And at least in modern astrology, signs
and houses are distinct, so the same kind of (possibly different) conventional agreements apply to theirdefnition and use. Except that in the latter case, there are fewer agreements.
Sure, there's a specific plane that we call the horizon on the celestial sphere that intersects the ecliptic uponwhich we have imposed the celestial longitude and latitude measurement system, so we can identify theascendant. But so much of it is only convention that we deem useful as users of these abstractions.
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Smart alec
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #4 - on: 01.10.2010 at 23:43 [UT+1] »"For example, you should always walk clockwise around a temple".
Do you really belive in superstitions? 'Cause that's what it sounds like.

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Lee Rutland

Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #5 - on: 02.10.2010 at 01:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Darkerhorse on 01.10.2010 at 23:29 [UT+1]:
Linda Harris(on),Clockwise is the best direction in all things according to the Vedas. For example, you should always walk clockwise around a temple.
Counterclockwise has the same bad rap as left-handed. As George sang, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you
there...

.....unless you're a witch.....

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #6 - on: 02.10.2010 at 01:41 [UT+1] »a left-handed one, too!
I get the intelligence of the original question, but place it in the advanced analysis- theoretical category.
I can't even keep up with asteroids and progressions transited by .....
bye!
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tables and chairs

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #7 - on: 02.10.2010 at 02:54 [UT+1] »It is very interesting to consider the Sun and AC/MC as transiting points. The order of the houses reverses. It
is interesting to wonder what this would imply about our daily schedules. We wake up with the sun rising,next it goes to the 12th, then to the 11th, then it's at the midheaven at noon, ect.
A moving transit chart would be like a clock with hands at half the normal speed.
Quote from Smart alec on 01.10.2010 at 23:43 [UT+1]:"For example, you should always walk clockwise around a temple".
Do you really belive in superstitions? 'Cause that's what it sounds like.

Clockwise from a below viewpoint or clockwise from an above viewpoint... that's the question.
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vertexMember

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #8 - on: 02.10.2010 at 05:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Oscillating on 01.10.2010 at 14:24 [UT+1]:
I've been reading up on different house systems lately (as I am very tempted to "convert" to Koch) and I've come across this idea in
Robert Hand's Horoscope Symbols.

Posts: 5576
Gender:

While signs correspond to the yearly rythm, starting with the Spring Euqinox at the Aries Point, going on to the Summer Solstice in Cancer,
Autumn Equinox in Libra and finishing with the Winter Solstice n Capricorn, houses correspond to the daily rythm: Sun on IC is a midnightbirth, Sun on Asc is a sunrise birth, Sun on MC is a midday birth and Sun on Dsc is an evening birth.
Therefore it makes much more sense to examine houses clockwise, starting with the IC and moving towards the Asc, instead of thenumerical order. For me this picture of houses is a much better description of how an individual develops and how houses build on eachother and also explains why the Fourth house represents both your family and roots but also old age and 'the end of the matter'. Hand hassome very interesting ideas on why the cadent houses are seen as so difficult based on the clockwise model.
This perspective really made me look at houses with a fresh eye, instead of just equating house meanings with 'corresponding' sign
meanings.

Oscillating,
I am not sure if I understand.... does this mean natal 12th house is read as the 4th house....so on? [chart castin Koch]Back to top
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behoboMember

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #9 - on: 02.10.2010 at 09:02 [UT+1] »[/quote]Clockwise from a below viewpoint or clockwise from an above viewpoint... that's the question. [/quote]thanks for this distinction tables and chairs. the "clockwise/counterclockwise" designations require an assumed
position of the observor in order to be usefull.

Posts: 1709

dealing cards "clockwise" around a table assumes a view as if one were hovering near the ceiling looking down.
the same direction would be called "counterclockwise" by someone lying under the table looking up through itwith xray vision.
and it's not just sophistry neither,,,as anyone who has ever reached around the backside of an engine trying towrench a bolt by feel can attest. you have to designate position of the observer for the terms to have meaning.

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Oscillating
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #10 - on: 02.10.2010 at 12:11 [UT+1] »I guess I was not very clear in my original post, I just found Hand's presentation very illuminating and wanted
to share it quickly...
So, of course, I do not suggest that houses should be re-numbered or anything, and Hand also followed the
traditional 1-12 order in his presentation. However, there is a closing chapter on derived house meanings andthe origin of houses in general. This is where he proposes to take a look at houses in the order that the planets
actually move through them in the course of the day, from midnight, through morning, noon, sunset and backto midnight. It is not about re-numbering the houses, but looking at them in a different way to explore thersymbolism independent of associated sign meanings.
It highlights how houses reflect the daily rythm and it reminded me of "the seven ages of man" to some extent
at least from IC to MC. However Hand uses a very abstact model for describing hosues clockwise, as amovement from the inner inner impulses developing and being put out in the world and meeting the outerenergy and then internalizing it.
We come into the world as helpless babies, with a certain genetical inheritance and dependent on ourmother/nurturing - IC.
As we learnt to crawl, to walk and to talk, our world widens - 3nd house (communication, brothers and sister,neighbourhood)
We become attached to things and internalise values - 2nd house
In the first house we present our personality to the outer world
The 12th house is in Hand's words ""our inner energies meet the first challenge as they encounter the outerworld"
I would say it corresponds to the turbulent emotional period of adolescence.
Inthe 11th we integrate ourselves into groups , find our niche in society, and in the tenth we build our career,follow our calling - this is where "the planetary energy reaches its outermost projection"
To sum up Hand's description from then on, there is a shift again - the third quadrant is where the primarysource of energy is outside - after projecting our inner energy into the world, now we start to take in theenergy of the world and expand out consciousness, and in the eight the outer world attaches itself to us,
pulling us away from our 2nd house attachments, requiring letting go and transforming ourselves. In the 7th
we see the world as our polar complement, a personal enemy or a lover, our experience of others on an
intimate level. In the 6th we experience our lives as shaped by externally imposed energies, in the fifth we
express the internalized "external" energy and in the fourth all our experiences become our own, part of who weare.
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Jamie Partridge

Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #11 - on: 02.10.2010 at 14:07 [UT+1] »Great topic and very thought provoking. I love seeing people question traditions systems, and debating
sensibly too! I stopped using houses a while ago simply because I saw them as an extension of zodiac signs,
which i don't use either.
Oscillating, my partner Marina read Hand's “Whole signs – The Oldest House System” and it seems to have
converted her. Also in her studies she came across this clockwise system, used by the Egyptians. It appears tobe supported by the work of Gauquelin, which shows favourable zones in the few degrees clockwise of thePosts: 292
Gender:Ascendant and Midheaven. So the 12th house comes out looking very positive, unlike we are taught intraditional astrology. You can read Marina's findings here: Which House System?

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Oscillating
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #12 - on: 02.10.2010 at 15:08 [UT+1] »Jamie, thanks for your response and the link!
I just spend about two hours with house systems and fiddling with my chart, becoming a bit tired of thetechnical stuff but really like Marina's presentation of the question and the following discussion so I'll comeback to it later.
You say you don't use houses and signs - I guess you must be using midpoints ...?
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IP LoggedJamie Partridge

Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #13 - on: 02.10.2010 at 15:16 [UT+1] »Well "a bit tired of the technical stuff" is what I think of midpoints. I accept that they are valid and respect
people who use them, I just prefer to keep it as simple as possible. Fixed stars and tight aspects are all I use tolook at a chart, but I still pay close attention the the Ascendant axis and Midheaven axis. For prediction I
precess the chart and use transits and lunations.

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Lee Rutland
Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #14 - on: 02.10.2010 at 15:28 [UT+1] »I read Marina's article.
It is very thoughtful, and well written.
She gives food for thought here.
Good article.

Posts: 3301

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #15 - on: 02.10.2010 at 17:11 [UT+1] »All of this is fascinating. Oscillating, thanks for bringing it up, and posting the potential descriptions of houses
if we start the chart at the IC. It does seem to make sense. I noticed your other post, and can't respond to it.
I will take some time to look at the differences, and fiddle with my own chart.
Jamie, I get straight to the planetary aspects myself, though I haven't given up signs/houses yet! If I had tosacrifice one, it would be signs. Do you not factor the mutual reception of a planet by sign? I'd presume, not.
A very direct, and somehow "freeing" perspective on the primary energy working via the structure of aspects
and transits in a chart.
More food for thought!
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #16 - on: 02.10.2010 at 17:15 [UT+1] »Nice, thoughtful article, Jamie. I don't think it makes the case for whole sign, but it's still good. And what anice level of discussion in the comments!
One point that bears on the argument Marina makes is that Gauquelin was placing planets into sectors basedon their mundane positions - that is, their progress through their semiarcs on their declination circles. Thatmay undermine the whole sign reasoning for the sector clustering a bit. But then again it may not.
- Ed
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Marina E Partridge

Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #17 - on: 02.10.2010 at 20:34 [UT+1] »I have thought further about this and the only reason I thought the houses should be read clockwise is because
it works with the Gauquelin sectors. But then that isn't really houses is it? Like I said in the article I think there
are two things going on here. The houses/zodiac/ecliptic are one thing and the division of the 4quadrants/meridian is another. So should we be merging them together at all? or just keep in mind there are
two different things happening on the same framework.
Ed I'm still working it out myself Re: Whether to go fully into whole signs or not. I sold it to myself based on
my list of factors in the article and because I seem to agree with alot of Robert Hands reasoning on a variety ofPosts: 98
Gender:Astrological techniques not just houses.. Yet.... visually I really miss the angles standing out as they do on thequadrant based systems. And Gauquelin did use a Placidius a quadrant based system for his research
A few astrologers have commented Whole Signs seems to work a soul level. So I still like to use them for thetype of natal readings I do.
But my big annoyance is that whole signs just doesn't cut it when looking at transits. Especially important forme is looking at the progressed moon when it changes houses. So now I'm deciding what to use for that.
Before I changed to Whole Signs I was using Porphyry. I do like the fact it is ecliptic based and that its the next
oldest system after whole signs.
Can't use Koch as I'm out of the recommended latitude, even tho so many people seem to find it great fortransits.
Back to the original question. If we use clockwise houses then I still think house 12 should be house one tocorrespond with a rising planet having more strength.
But then as you go through none of it makes sense at all with the common definitions with the houses. So theclockwise notion must only work with 4 or 8 quadrants or 36!! You'd have to rewrite the book.

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tables and chairs
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #18 - on: 02.10.2010 at 21:47 [UT+1] »Quote from Jamie Darkstar on 02.10.2010 at 15:16 [UT+1]:
Well "a bit tired of the technical stuff" is what I think of midpoints. I accept that they are valid and respect people who use them, I justprefer to keep it as simple as possible. Fixed stars and tight aspects are all I use to look at a chart, but I still pay close attention the theAscendant axis and Midheaven axis. For prediction I precess the chart and use transits and lunations.

I bring this up on the forum all the time, but do you ever consider the nodes of the equator and ecliptic as
points on a chart? I have wondered if a person who only sees the points that the zodiac is founded upon but
not the zodiac could change the way the zodiac is viewed.
My thoughts so far are that what is studied by astrology is actually quite simple, but it is the systems that webuild (like the zodiac) that make it a bit more complicated. Perhaps Uranus can only change something if it
first digs underneath Saturn.
Edited:I'll join the conversation once I have time to read the article.

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #19 - on: 02.10.2010 at 22:54 [UT+1] »I'll admit, like Table&Chairs, I have not had time to read through everything linked.
I feel comfortable with Ocsillating's descriptions of the House energies starting at the IC. That's been a large,
new concept to think through. Question: If I look at my Placidus chart from the perspective that my own
Chiron/IC k is my first house, is that a simple yet appropriate means of examining this?
[b]Marina,[/b] you wrote:
Back to the original question. If we use clockwise houses then I still think house 12 should be house one tocorrespond with a rising planet having more strength.
But then as you go through none of it makes sense at all with the common definitions with the houses. So theclockwise notion must only work with 4 or 8 quadrants or 36!! You'd have to rewrite the book.
I agree with you here. Re-defining the definitions of the houses so that the accepted meaning of the 10thhouse becomes a reinterpretation as third house issues ... yes it re-writes the book in a radical manner. Can
you explain your reference to the quadrants ? As in all astrological thought, there is a blending ... maybe thebooks are about to be re-written. Though I always remember not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Heady stuff, and with Uranus gearing up for its transit, an open mind is one's best ally!
The Darkstar site is a stimulating gift, along these lines. Thanks to you both for bringing it here.
Moira
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tables and chairs
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #20 - on: 02.10.2010 at 23:09 [UT+1] »I haven't read the article, but I would think a planet in the first house would get more energy from the AC
because the AC moves faster than the planet. Any planet (like the sun) in the first house and the AC are
making an applying conjunction. A 12H planet and the AC would be making a separating conjunction.
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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #21 - on: 03.10.2010 at 02:06 [UT+1] »Tables & Chairs,
Another great thought! In this model, the planets proceeding from 12th forward would not be influenced by
the ASC as they are in our current model.
More pause for thought.
What if the 12th really was our 1st house? It certainly would throw a lot of our concepts of applying andseparating out of different windows via our Ascendant, which would be behind us, mathematically?
It's going to take me some time to filter through this. Does it make sense that the energy of my 12th house isactually the energy of a 1st house? I'm inconclusive there, because Neptune in the 12th conjuncts my ASC.
Am I truly more Neptunian than I ever thought? If I follow this line, Jupiterh is my potential last house wrapup point. It would be in the 12th. That doesn't seem like an alien notion. My interpretation of Jupiter in myfirst makes some sense, but it might make more sense if it were a last-house inhabitant.
Thinking out loud,Moira
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #22 - on: 03.10.2010 at 02:29 [UT+1] »Quote from tables and chairs on 02.10.2010 at 23:09 [UT+1]:
I haven't read the article, but I would think a planet in the first house would get more energy from the AC because the AC moves fasterthan the planet. Any planet (like the sun) in the first house and the AC are making an applying conjunction. A 12H planet and the AC
would be making a separating conjunction.

But if the ASC is just a mark on a measuring dial, it wouldn't be imparting energy the same way that an object
being measured would, would it?
The way I like to think of it is that the signs are one measurement system, based on the relative motion of thenative to the Sun. And the houses are another completely independent one based on the relative motion of
the native to the center of the earth. Ecliptic and equator. Secondary and primary motion. You can easily
erect two distinct charts showing how the planets and other points on the celestial sphere are placed in each. I
use both in practice.
The confusion starts creeping in when we combine both measurement systems into one graphic as we do with aconventional chart. Then we start making meaningless statements about how quadrant houses are distorted athigh latitudes (they're not - it's due to our charting techniques).
Back on topic, it's interesting that a lot of very old astrology ascribes meanings to the houses based on thedaily cycle clockwise from the IC. See Deborah Houlding's "Houses: Temples in the Sky" for some of this.
- Ed
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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #23 - on: 03.10.2010 at 03:12 [UT+1] »Ed,You erect separate charts for signs and houses?
My respect for your astrological integrity grows,
as my ability to study it all dissolves in the myriad options.
I've got a long-term debilitating surgery coming up.
Maybe "the old books" will accompany me on this trip
where the ancient is combining to the embryonic new.
Life provides.
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #24 - on: 03.10.2010 at 03:19 [UT+1] »I do. Taken separately, they can provide a bit less information overload (and the aspects are different). You
still need to integrate them. I prefer doing it in my consciousness rather than using the typical synthetic chart.
Though I will say that the Astrodienst Fixed Star style chart is very much to my tastes as a synthetic view.
Send data, and I'll show you a pair of charts.
- Ed
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randolph b sayer

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #25 - on: 03.10.2010 at 04:29 [UT+1] »Marina's article might not be entirely accurate as regards this and that.
I seem to recall the archaeological and historical evidence for clockwise/anti clockwise house systems suggests
we didn’t have a hand over as it were. Clockwise systems existed up until the middle ages or even beyond. We
aren’t dealing with''Suddenly the system flips anti-clockwise, and it seems complex magical formulae took over from actual
observation of the sky''.
So let’s flip the domiciles/places round.
There's another statement which is also dubious.
''This all rather suspiciously seems to coincide with the growing power of Christianity and the Dark ages where
Astrology became more and more complex, muddled and maligned''
Have you ever seen a Hellenistic system? The ones I’ve seen strike me as more , or at least as, complex as
medieval ones. Also in the Middle Ages astrology enjoyed something of a golden age in some areas at least,
didn’t it?
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tables and chairs
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #26 - on: 03.10.2010 at 18:24 [UT+1] »Ed, I am not sure if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that when you look at the positions ofplanets relative to each other and relative to the AC/MC axes, you're applying a different curvature to theimaginary circle than you would if you were looking at the positions of the planets relative to each other andthe equatorial-ecliptic intersections/"nodes"?
I don't have a good enough vocabulary to describe this well, but what I am saying is that for a house chart, do
you dilate all of the points (planets, axes, ect.) on the chart until the AC/DC and MC/IC axes are perpendicular?
I think we can still think about applying and separating, though maybe the usual ideas used to describe
applying/separating aspects between planets won't apply to aspects (conjunctions) between planets andintersections of the celestial horizon and the ecliptic.
To put my thought in different terms: a first house planet is about to rise while a twelfth house planet has
already risen.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #27 - on: 03.10.2010 at 18:34 [UT+1] »Pretty much yes. Each of the quadrant house systems that has a concept of mundane position divides thecelestial sphere into equal areas, but not on the ecliptic. Distorted houses are an illusion based on measuring
everything on the ecliptic.
So, depending on the underlying geometry of a given system, you place the 2D points on the celestial spherethat correspond to planets etc into the divided areas of the celestial sphere to get their mundane position, orhouse longitude.
Hope that helps.
- Ed
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tables and chairs
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #28 - on: 03.10.2010 at 19:23 [UT+1] »Ed, I am not sure how big the difference would be but from thinking about simple geometry, I realized thateach planet really has it's own ascendant and descendant, just as each planet has it's own sets of nodes and it's
own apogee and perigee. So you could really do a house chart for each individual planet.
Look at the picture. A planet on the AC or DC is supposedly right on the horizon, but this image shows howeach planet reaches the horizon at a different point on the zodiac depending on it's distance from Earth. I'msure this image exaggerates the difference greatly but it still shows that there is a difference.
The biggest object is the native's planet of birth. The two other space objects (planets) are at the same degreeof the zodiac even though one is on the horizon while one has already risen. However, a topocentric chart
would only have 1 AC and DC.

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #29 - on: 03.10.2010 at 19:51 [UT+1] »This is all mathematical models, which means you can do pretty much whatever you like. Then the proof is in
the pudding: is it an accurate model, is it consistent, does it "work"? With a Placidus/semiarc based housewheel, the horizon and local meridian are considered to be 90 degrees apart on the equator and are drawn thatway. Each planet is on a declination circle that is parallel to the equator. To place it in the chart we determine
the proportion of the way that it is between the two axes, and multiply that proportion by 90 degrees todetermine its position in the quadrant. By doing that, a planet or other point that is rising is always on thehorizon axis. You don't get this effect that you do when you place planets based in their ecliptic longitudes
relative to the ecliptic longitudes of the house cusps, where a planet such a pluto (that has potentially largecelestial latitude) is placed in the 6th house when it's exactly setting. That situation is what your figure
illustrates.
Yes, each planet at a distinct declination has its own times to cross the angles, but here we normalize it andlook at everything as being measured on the equator (but not as right ascension, as the equivalent RA if theplanet were on the equator; it's not a right angle projection). Think of it as a differently oriented measurement
device from the zodiac.
- Ed
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #30 - on: 03.10.2010 at 21:34 [UT+1] »What are they talking about?

Posts: 2454

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #31 - on: 03.10.2010 at 21:40 [UT+1] »Astro technology as opposed to ontological planetary and stellar influences. Most astrologers are actually inthe former mode, even if they talk like they're in the latter.

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #32 - on: 03.10.2010 at 21:55 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 03.10.2010 at 21:34 [UT+1]:
What are they talking about?

This is an interesting site to trip into.
Ed's working on the two chart theory, using mine.
One chart for the planets in signs; a second for the planets in houses.
Giving my chart up for the sake of astrological illumination, and sure I'll have many more questions then.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #33 - on: 03.10.2010 at 22:12 [UT+1] »Would appear I posted to the wrong thread. So, I'm skipping the solar chart as you can imagine it as yournormal chart with the houses omitted and the sun at the bottom. No great surprises or insights. This one is
the house wheel based on Placidus/semiarc positions of the planets relative to the angles.
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #34 - on: 03.10.2010 at 22:14 [UT+1] »And this one is the very interesting "Astrodienst Fixed Star" style chart available in the extended chart selection
page. The curved dashed lines correspond to the division of space underlying the previous chart wheel.

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #35 - on: 03.10.2010 at 23:40 [UT+1] »Thanks Ed.
Have to spend some time looking at it ... am not familiar analyzing the chart from a "spherical" perspective,
and I get a bit dizzy on ferris wheels.

I spoke with a forum friend today, describing the possibility that we should consider our 12th as 1st houses.
She broke-up ... "you mean my Mercury ASC/Sun/Chiron would be my 1st house, instead of 12th?"
Yep.
She's a psychologist and practising family counsellor with these planets in k. Told her to meet me in a coupleof days after we've had time to sit in the new house chairs; feel how it thinks.

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Marina E

Re: The case for clockwise houses

Partridge« Reply #36 - on: 04.10.2010 at 00:04 [UT+1] »Member@Ed Falis That's wonderful That Fixed star chart is just what I've been looking for! Why doesn't Solar fire havethat option? Or maybe it does. I'll have to go and tinker!
I too think one should do two charts. We definitely need the regular chart for the co-ordinates of the Zodiac.
So we know where we are for transits.
You use the second one for reading houses right?
@ Randolph.
I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about Hellenistic charts? I think they are very complex andmuddling. That's my point.

Posts: 98
Gender:How did Astrology have a Golden Age in the Middle ages?! Anything like that was deemed occult by
Christianity, people were burned for it. Are you talking about Elizabethan times with John Dee? Or therenaissance.
Astrology lost its credibility when it separated from Astronomy.
I must admit I need to read up more on the history of astrology. I'm asking questions more than making
statements of fact.
How can we know to truth of the development of Astrology when its hard to know of history that happenedeven a hundred years ago?
@moirasquared
I think Ed has clarified that. What I meant by the quadrant system as I understand it is the angles of the chart.
Rising, culminating, setting...

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #37 - on: 04.10.2010 at 03:02 [UT+1] »Ed's clarified it, but I'm attempting to understand it. Life in the carnival of my chart!
The house rulers are shifted by a few degrees, bringing certain late degreed planets into the next house. Venus
into the 10th for instance. Therefore, I will always dress for the Plutonian performance! It's a theatricaldirective.

Ed mentioned that I should observe my zodiac signs from an IC perspective. My Asc at the IC, so on fromthere. Is this correct? I am and will/ will and am. I assume I'm moving clockwise here? This presumes thatthe familiar 3rd house descriptions are now 1st house descriptions? But only for the signs?
Man, I need a cup of coffee at the talking table to abs'orb all of this.

Marina, thanks for your notes. Asking lots of questions now!
Moira

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #38 - on: 04.10.2010 at 06:15 [UT+1] »I wouldn't base a house system choice on the Gauquelin power zones. Sadly, the Gauquelins' work has beenpretty well refuted by researchers who looked closely at their methodologies and data sets. [I say sadly,
because I would like to think it worked.] There is some lingering debate about whether the Mars Effect works,
but that is hardly enough of a hook to hang an entire house system on it. See, for example, www.astrologyand-science.com/hpage.htm or Suitbert Ertel, The Tenacious Mars Effect. I can think of several reasons
why the Gauquelin power zones could work--if they do--that do not necessitate renumbering horoscope houses.
I've been scrounging through some distant memories on this one, but I think the system of planetary hours
works on a clockwise system.
Posts: 14740
Gender:But I wonder if the house problem is not more apparent than real. I try not to conflate signs and houses, so
happily dispense with the notion that some modern astrologers espouse, that a planet in Taurus or in thesecond house amounts to much the same thing. I suspect this conflation is at the heart of the problem, notsome conspiracy theory that houses "were deliberately tampered with, rewritten and kept secreted for those in
the higher echelons of the magic fraternity." Nor do I agree that "The masses were warned away from thesepower zones by such tac-tics as naming the 12th house “The place of Bad Spirit” because the masses until thegeneration of computer-assisted chart construction couldn't do the math necessary to erect charts by hand.
Suppose we don't call houses by their numbers, but simply give them their traditional names, while
acknowledging that houses are more inclusive than those old names let on. The ninth is the "house of journeys
over water." The 7th is the "house of marriage." Most of us don't refer to Taurus as "sign #2"; or Aquarius as"sign #11", after all. We have no problem mastering simple names. Or simply get used to thinking of
numbering backwards, like a count-down for a spacecraft lift-off.
Problem solved?
Another problem, though, with re-jigging house-numbering, concerns derived or derivative houses. These
would have to be reversed in a clockwise system, as well. For example, my brother's money is represented by
the 4th house; as siblings are a third house matter and money is a second house matter. Starting with the 3rd
house as #1, that makes the 4th house #2. My husband's brother is house #9, because my husband is a 7th
house matter, and the 9th house is the 3rd house from the 7th. Derived houses get a lot more fine-grained
than this, but you get the idea. If you think they work, then reversing the customary order of houses would
throw a lot of the derived house work out the window.
If I really want to work intently with a chart, or I have reason to mistrust Placidus I will look at multiple houses
for a chart reading. But I do think intercepted signs have real interpretive value (notably the sun in anintercepted sign) and these are not possible with a whole sign system.
If we take the old dictum, "If it's not broken, don't fix it," I am not clear on what is "broken" with conventional
house numbering, or with comparing several house systems for a particular chart.

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chatcat

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #39 - on: 04.10.2010 at 06:40 [UT+1] »You are talking about the northern hemisphere. The Southern is opposite. HOwever we convert all charts backto Greenwich mean time in London and the seasons are really not valid with astrology as such.

Posts: 1967
Gender:As for clockwise houses, that simply doesnt make sense. You cant change the basic principles and workings of
the Universe. For instance in Europe the seasons begin at the solstices of around 21st of the month but in acountry like Australia in the south our seasons are different and really earlier. The world climate is changing
and we can no longer strictly adhere to the equinoxes to measure climate in my opinion.
The 1st house is our birth, our beginnings and our first impressions. etc and around the anti clockwise
precession. The second house is our personal finances and our assets and so on around... The fourth housedeals with our roots and our hereditary factors and the "dust to dust" of our burial place,s our home and our
foundations and how we are placed on the Earth and in it.
We can experiment all we like and try different methods but truth is truth.

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chatcat
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #40 - on: 04.10.2010 at 06:52 [UT+1] »I can assure you that my 6th house stellium is valid along with my 8th house stellium and my afflicted Moon in
the 3rd. I have had over 30 years of experience as an astrologer and although there is always debate overPosts: 1967
Gender:house methods, Placidus is more viable for some and equal for others, the house meanings remain thesame......Derivative house method only confirms this.......SOme use whole signs and it really depends on the
degree of your house cusps. For me all those methods work as it happens. This is not true for everyone andwould work for very early degrees rising sign only.....

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #41 - on: 04.10.2010 at 07:28 [UT+1] »OK, guys--I am not the brightest star in the astrological firmament. I have yet to locate a scholarly treatise on
house numbering, but will do some more sleuthing, time permitting. But I suspect there is a simple
explanation for our current "widdershins" house-numbering direction.
One thing I have done on some recent camping trips where the night sky was particularly bright, away from city
lights, was to see Jupiter passing along the night sky from east to west. I generally don't sleep well on
camping trips, and was able to note Jupiter's passing at several points in the sky between first dark and dawn.

Posts: 14740
Gender:So Jupiter is now in late Pisces (tropical), and it stays in that sign in the course of a night, regardless of what
sector (house) of the heavens it might be in.
But if I consider myself as an observer (in a geocentric model of the universe) to be stationary, and if Jupiter in
Pisces seemingly crosses the heavens from east to west; then relative to the rotation of the heavens, myposition would appear to move in a counter-clockwise position. Sort of like houses in our current numberingsystem.
To get the idea here, grab a recent horoscope you've printed in your right hand. Determine the rising
sign/ascendant. Better yet, do this with a chart like the one Ed posted, above, that shows the constellations, tobetter represent the night sky. Rotate the chart clockwise so that the original rising sign on the eastern horizon
starts moving up towards the zenith (MC) and then "sets" back down towards the western DC and onward. This
gives you a stylized representation of the moving heavens from a viewpoint on earth.
As you do this, hold a separate small object in your left hand, like a pencil sharpener or a pen point over therim of the chart, at the original rising sign. It represents an observer on earth--kind of a celestial "you are
here." Keep this object absolutely still. As you rotate the chart, you will notice that the signs and houses on
the chart start moving in a clockwise direction, but that the visual effect is to make the stationary object appear
to be moving counter-clockwise direction through them.
For example, if we envision a whole sign house system and start with Pisces on the eastern horizon (asendant),
when Pisces has rotated up to the zenith (MC) in a clockwise direction, my object will be over Taurus, the 3rdsign/house from Pisces. This illustration works with any house system, but you would just need to check thedegrees.
So perhaps a good starting point is how the night sky looked to observers a long time ago, and how theymight have reasoned from it to divide the sky into house sectors.

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randolph b sayer
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #42 - on: 04.10.2010 at 11:53 [UT+1] »[quote@ Randolph.
I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about Hellenistic charts? I think they are very complex andmuddling. That's my point.
How did Astrology have a Golden Age in the Middle ages?! Anything like that was deemed occult by
Christianity, people were burned for it. Are you talking about Elizabethan times with John Dee? Or therenaissance.
Astrology lost its credibility when it separated from Astronomy.
] [/quote]Oh dear.
So your point has now changed to astrology became more complex yet was very complex and muddling in the
beginning.
To ensure we are on the same page:
Middle Ages - 5th-15th
Renaissance- 14th-17th
Broadly speaking astrology's complex relationship and at times embracement by the Cognoscenti and PowerBrokers of the day lasted between the 12th-17th. The idea that astrologers were often seen as heretics andburnt at stakes is rubbish. The stats are long gone but a rational view would be meeting this end was as likely
to be the result of the other Kings men also finding it an auspicious day for a ruck more so than the invisibleline between naturalistic and judicial determinism being omnipotently crossed.
The stuff about losing credibility when it lost a relationship with astronomy is also rubbish, it may be you arereferring to Babylonian star gazing. I really don’t know what you are talking about. It lost its kudos due todevelopments in man’s knowledge of nature (the enlightenment), theological shifts and predictive stupidity. By
the 18th century ridicule had set in and this essentially remains the case until now.
If you want to change your audience from Cosmopolitan readers you ought to put your article in the shredderand get reading. Campion’s 2 volume opus is a good a place to start as any, if funds are tight here’s some cybermaterial
http://cura.free.fr/decem/10voss.html
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #43 - on: 04.10.2010 at 12:18 [UT+1] »Knob.

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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #44 - on: 05.10.2010 at 00:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Marina (Darkstar) on 04.10.2010 at 00:04 [UT+1]:@Ed Falis That's wonderful That Fixed star chart is just what I've been looking for! Why doesn't Solar fire have that option? Or maybe it
does. I'll have to go and tinker!
I too think one should do two charts. We definitely need the regular chart for the co-ordinates of the Zodiac. So we know where we are fortransits.
You use the second one for reading houses right?...

Right-o!
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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #45 - on: 05.10.2010 at 00:17 [UT+1] »Quote from MOIRASQUARED on 04.10.2010 at 03:02 [UT+1]:
Ed mentioned that I should observe my zodiac signs from an IC perspective. My Asc at the IC, so on from there. Is this correct? I am andwill/ will and am. I assume I'm moving clockwise here? This presumes that the familiar 3rd house descriptions are now 1st housedescriptions?

No, I do something a bit more metaphorically direct (and if I remember rightly it's similar to what Hand did in
Horoscope Symbols). Consider the IC as midnight, or the planting of the seed. Or Yule/Christmas, thebeginning of the return of the sun. Now progress clockwise into the 3rd and think about what kind of things
might be going on. The cadent houses are a facing of something new from one angle to the next; the fixed adevelopment and "fixing" if you will; the cardinal a full expression. Play with the images and think about themeanings of the houses as they're given traditionally. Many things may become clearer.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #46 - on: 05.10.2010 at 00:23 [UT+1] »Quote from chatcat on 04.10.2010 at 06:40 [UT+1]:
We can experiment all we like and try different methods but truth is truth.

Truth that can be spoken is relative truth.
- some old Buddhist
The less smartass remark is that astrology is technology, not the laws of some Universe. But disagreements on
this matter tend not to be negotiable. I'm just registering my disagreement.
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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #47 - on: 05.10.2010 at 00:28 [UT+1] »Quote from Waybread on 04.10.2010 at 07:28 [UT+1]:
OK, guys--I am not the brightest star in the astrological firmament. I have yet to locate a scholarly treatise on house numbering, but will
do some more sleuthing, time permitting. But I suspect there is a simple explanation for our current "widdershins" house-numbering
direction. ...

My guess is that it has to do with the heavy emphasis on the zoidia/places (now signs) in Hellenistic astrology.
The place of the ascendant is first. Given the clockwise rotation of the sky relative to the native, the next placeis second. And so on.
But that's exactly what you said!
Personally, I don't think the numbering even matters. Looking in either direction teaches and tells something.
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Re: The case for clockwise houses

randolph b sayer
Ex Member« Reply #48 - on: 05.10.2010 at 02:51 [UT+1] »Wllershins lovely word - enjoyed
Now ED -What's all this relative truth about technology not being tied into the Laws of the Universe.
Numbers - why settle on 12, well why not. Schmidt may have a plausible researched theory.
Anyway this smartarse is bemused by thisQuote:
Looking in either direction teaches and tells something

unravelling it could be rewarding.......

feliciter
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Marina E Partridge

Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #49 - on: 05.10.2010 at 07:03 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 04.10.2010 at 11:53 [UT+1]:[quote@ Randolph.
I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about Hellenistic charts? I think they are very complex and muddling. That's my point.
How did Astrology have a Golden Age in the Middle ages?! Anything like that was deemed occult by Christianity, people were burned for it.
Are you talking about Elizabethan times with John Dee? Or the renaissance.
Astrology lost its credibility when it separated from Astronomy.
]
Oh dear.
So your point has now changed to astrology became more complex yet was very complex and muddling in the beginning.

Posts: 98
Gender:I'm talking about the modern Hellenistic revival not ancient greece.
Robert Powell and Robert Hand between them were the inspiration for the article and they had looked into thehistory of the house systems. There aren't that many who have. My comments about astrology loosing its
credibility when it separated from Astronomy are not so strange. I have heard that mentioned frequently in
discussions with siderealists.
What seems to be emerging is that there is never going to be one true house system that works for all. They
are just techniques and tools for decoding the mysterious language of the stars and planets as they speak
through human experience.
Randolph. I won't be putting my article in the shredder thankyou! How many people just use a house system
by default? All I'm suggesting is one questions why one is using a system. I have more questions than answers.

Oh about Astrologers being burnt at the stake. I was being dramatic for effect. When Emperor Constantine
brought in Christianity, it outlawed certain pagan practices, of which was Astrology was a part.
If religion has been used politically there is no reason to suppose Astrology wouldn't be also.
House systems are a such a hot potato because it becomes the framework, the Saturn structure of the stars.
Who ever reigns supreme there has power.
My old Astrology teacher Kim Farley once said she liked the Equal house system because it seemed all theothers were about getting a house system named after you. She was half joking, but she has a point.
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #50 - on: 05.10.2010 at 08:36 [UT+1] »Hey, randoph--make that "widdershins." An archaic English word.
Ed, I'm glad you found my explanation somewhat feasible. I can't find this on the Internet yet, but I wonder
my paper "experiment" (above) is similar to the experience of sitting on a stationary train at the platform, when
it's all revved up and ready to depart, so that sound alone isn't a cue as to whether we are moving. Next to us,a second train is actually moving forward, but the sensation on my train is that we are now moving backwards.
Help! I need a physicist. These may be only optical illusions, but then until we get to the concept of aheliocentric solar system, astrological charts really are a kind of optical illusion.
Marina, I've tried to do some digging into the origins of our house numbering system, notably in terms of thePosts: 14740
Gender:counter-clockwise numbering. Most authors assumed there was a natural, self-evident correspondence between
the order of signs starting with Aries, and the order of houses, and let it go at that.
Deborah Houlding, The Houses: Temples of the Sky notes that no such correspondence existed for traditional
astrologers, but she doesn't explain the counter-clockwise numbering, so far as I could tell. It does seem tohave taken a while for astrologers to align on houses: in the classical period Ptolemy doesn't use houses except
in the sense of signs, Manilius uses them but doesn't number them, and Vettius Valens uses and numbersthem.
It is also worth noting that the earliest known western horoscopes were not circular, but squares, with houses
appearing within the outer square as small triangles. For a long time, ancient astrologers used 8 houses
instead of 12. As Marina notes, the earlest houses went clockwise around the perimeter. (Jim Tester, A Historyof Western Astrology, pp.26-27.] But all in all, the picture of the heavens was very stylized indeed, suggesting
astrologers were after something more esoteric than a simplified depiction of the heavens.
David Ovason, The History of the Horoscope has a lot of facsimile horoscopes, and they were all square wellinto the 18th century. One notable thing about them is that the houses are not shown as numbered. By thenthe houses had their common numbers and meanings, but astrologers didn't seem to find the numbers
worthwhile to write on horoscopes. Obviously Ovason's illustrations are not exhaustive, but the earliest
horoscopes for which he shows numbered houses were by Alan Leo, b. 1860, the great popularizer of astrology
for a mass audience! Then numbered houses do not even show up routinely in the 20th century. Signs, yes.
Degrees, yes. Houses, yes, but they are not numbered.
I would draw from this evidence that astrology has a lot of inherent flexibility built into it, and the numberingof houses was not a huge priority in the history of astrology.
But Tester also said something relevant to this discussion: "It is very important to notice that these twelve
sections or houses are independent of the zodiac. Their position round the ecliptic is fixed by...theascendant....The twelve mundane houses, then, are a sort of fixed framework within which the zodiac revolves,in a clockwise direction."Put differently, the house just above the eastern horizon is always going to be just that house, regardless of its
name, number, cusps, or influence over human affairs. It stays put. So the house numbering system reallydoesn't have to follow a clockwise pattern, because the houses do not move in any direction, whether clockwise
or counter-clockwise. If they are numbered according to the order of signs or not, it doesn't make muchdifference.
The work of Dane Rudhyar and the theosophists aside, there actually is no rational order to the meanings ofhouses. In our counter-clockwise numbering system, the house of death follows the house of marriage and issuperceded by the ouse of one's philosophy or theology. The house of early childhood conditioning follows thehouse of one's bank account. If we switch the direction, then the house of "self undoing" precedes the house of
making friends and developing a career or public image. This suggests that the numerical order of houses is
not their most salient feature.
Marina, for people who have studied the Gauquelin data and debate and still want to use their cadent housethesis, I can think of other explanations why this could work, notably solar arcs to the angles. These would hit
the conjunction at about the time a boy in early 20th century France would have had special talent noticed andrewarded. In contrast, someone born with Mars in the 10th near the MC would have that Mars solar arc-ing its
way away from the MC.

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randolph b sayer

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #51 - on: 05.10.2010 at 09:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Marina (Darkstar) on 05.10.2010 at 07:03 [UT+1]:
I'm talking about the modern Hellenistic revival not ancient greece.

Robert Powell and Robert Hand between them were the inspiration for the article and they had looked into the history of thehouse systems. There aren't that many who have. My comments about astrology loosing its credibility when it separated from Astronomy
are not so strange. I have heard that mentioned frequently in discussions with siderealists.
Randolph. I won't be putting my article in the shredder thankyou! How many people just use a house system by default? All I'msuggesting is one questions why one is using a system. I have more questions than answers.
Oh about Astrologers being burnt at the stake. I was being dramatic for effect. When Emperor Constantine brought in
Christianity, it outlawed certain pagan practices, of which was Astrology was a part.

If religion has been used politically there is no reason to suppose Astrology wouldn't be also.
My old Astrology teacher Kim Farley once said she liked the Equal house system because it seemed all the others wereabout getting a house system named after you. She was half joking, but she has a point.

Here's an idea how about you send your article to the mentor, or even the inspirational Hand or Powell, and see
what they think of the shredder solution. .............. one or all may point out the danger of dramatic hob
nobbin with sideralists.
Willer or Widder shins - it's so negotiable. Next article could be about the USA's narrow victory in the Ryder
Cup yesterday, Mercury being opposite the Sun rendered this so very predictable - did you see my blog about
this which I wrote next Wednesday. I won't link you to it as there as I suggest Mr Equal, a 1st Century
Huddersfield resident, initially wanted only 27 Units' in the 4th, I'd wager even Farley never read that in
Cosmo........
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Jamie Partridge
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #52 - on: 05.10.2010 at 11:53 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 05.10.2010 at 09:59 [UT+1]:

did you see my blog

No Lorenzo, not one living soul has ever seen your blog. Why not start one for the benefit of noncosmopolitans?
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randolph b sayer

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #53 - on: 05.10.2010 at 14:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Jamie Darkstar on 05.10.2010 at 11:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from randolph b sayer on 05.10.2010 at 09:59 [UT+1]:

did you see my blog

No Lorenzo, not one living soul has ever seen your blog. Why not start one for the benefit of non-cosmopolitans?

Alas not Lorenzo, I think I know the soleless sol you refer to, - a mastery of language and a not to be scoffed
at knowledge ofharsh aspects of this endeavour. A little unforgiving with the presentation now and then. He would have put
Marinas re-writing of his-story through a more savage mincer than I. A right old learning curve could havebeen had by all.
I am eagerly awaiting your article: 'Astrology is a Science - despite nobody, or only one, thinking it is' . If you
need a proof reader.....
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #54 - on: 05.10.2010 at 20:31 [UT+1] »Hey, randolph-Your contribution to this discussion on "clockwise houses" is .....???

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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #55 - on: 05.10.2010 at 20:43 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 05.10.2010 at 02:51 [UT+1]:
Wllershins lovely word - enjoyed
Now ED -What's all this relative truth about technology not being tied into the Laws of the Universe.
Numbers - why settle on 12, well why not. Schmidt may have a plausible researched theory.
Anyway this smartarse is bemused by thisQuote:
Looking in either direction teaches and tells something

unravelling it could be rewarding.......

feliciter

Really not so complicated. The usual counterclockwise view associates with the "secondary" counterclockwise
zodiacal progression that has a number of developmental stories associated with it; the clockwise one with the"primary" movement of the planets and stars through the daily sky. That also has developmental stories
associated with it. A solar perspective and an earthly one. Perspectives we can learn from.
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Marina E
Partridge

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #56 - on: 05.10.2010 at 21:44 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from Waybread on 05.10.2010 at 08:36 [UT+1]:

Marina, for people who have studied the Gauquelin data and debate and still want to use their cadent house thesis, I can think of otherexplanations why this could work, notably solar arcs to the angles. These would hit the conjunction at about the time a boy in early 20th
century France would have had special talent noticed and rewarded. In contrast, someone born with Mars in the 10th near the MC would
have that Mars solar arc-ing its way away from the MC.

That's a good observation. It could well be the case. But I also think rather than Gauquelin trying to measure
his data against the angular/succedent/cadent rule and then saying there was an "Error", he should've justPosts: 98
Gender:conceded there may be two different systems? Looking at it from both directions something can be learnt then.
So yes I really do think two things are going on here, which is what I was trying to say with my blog post.
Quote from Ed Falis on 05.10.2010 at 20:43 [UT+1]:

Really not so complicated. The usual counterclockwise view associates with the "secondary" counterclockwise zodiacal progression that has
a number of developmental stories associated with it; the clockwise one with the "primary" movement of the planets and stars throughthe daily sky. That also has developmental stories associated with it. A solar perspective and an earthly one. Perspectives we can learn
from.

Thanks for summarizing it so very well. For me Robert Hand was explaining the counter-clockwise/solar
perspective and Powell was describing the clockwise/earthly perspective.
I guess the question is, can both be used together without it being a watered down compromise? Or are themodern house systems such as Koch the best of both worlds? The same could be said of western sidereal
astrology I guess. But that's a whole other discussion.....
So Ed today I tried reading a chart using the two different systems. I absolutely love using the fixed stars chartbecause as someone who uses fixed stars, to be able to SEE the chart like that is just wonderful aid.
But here's the thing. Which house system do you use with each one? I guess one should use the quadrant
based house system with the fixed stars chart and an ecliptic based one with the regular chart. Or do you justused your prefered system with the fixed stars chart and ignore the houses on the regular chart altogether?
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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #57 - on: 05.10.2010 at 21:53 [UT+1] »I tend to use the Placidus mundo system as seen on the fixed star chart for timing and planetary strength (ieangularity). I look at the Placidus ecliptic cusps to determine house rulers. But I also look at whole sign for
topical interpretation. So for me right now a lot of this is in flux as usual. I'd say whole sign is more of anexperimental view for me.
- Ed
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randolph b sayer
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #58 - on: 06.10.2010 at 00:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Waybread on 05.10.2010 at 20:31 [UT+1]:
Hey, randolph-Your contribution to this discussion on "clockwise houses" is .....???

Manifest
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randolph b sayer

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #59 - on: 06.10.2010 at 03:03 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 05.10.2010 at 20:43 [UT+1]:
Really not so complicated. The usual counterclockwise view associates with the "secondary" counterclockwise zodiacal progression that has
a number of developmental stories associated with it; the clockwise one with the "primary" movement of the planets and stars throughthe daily sky. That also has developmental stories associated with it. A solar perspective and an earthly one. Perspectives we can learn
from.

I wondered if you were suggesting a ''developmental story'', and I won't assume what this means for you, could
be narrated using the 1st house as the 12th and going clockwise from there.
I'm aware some have done similar things, Axel Harvey comes to mind with his start at the 7th as the 1st andfrom memory go clockwise, but I could be wrong - somewhere in considerations is this model. I did notresonate to it, ones keenly held certainties are not easily revoked.
Can you give this notion of yours more clarity, an example perhaps?
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Jamie Partridge
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #60 - on: 06.10.2010 at 04:31 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 03.10.2010 at 04:29 [UT+1]:

Have you ever seen a Hellenistic system?

Never, but I have seen an Hellenistic system. A mastery of language?
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #61 - on: 06.10.2010 at 05:47 [UT+1] »Marina, there may be good reasons for renumbering houses, but I just don't see the Gauquelin research as oneof them. When I first read a couple of the Gauquelins' books in the 1990s I was very excited by them. They
seemed to have found statistical significance to birth times, and I had no emotional investment in the
traditional focus upon the 10th house as the house of career.
Unfortunately my one university course in statistics was long ago and far away; but I paid attention when,much more recently, I learned that statisticians found difficulties with the Gauquelins' work, never mind theastro-traditionalists. As I said in a post above, I think the so-called "Mars effect" may still hold up, but
apparently not the rest of it.
Posts: 14740
Gender:One big "plus" in favour of the Gauquelins' work was supposedly that France has a huge set of official birth
records that include birth times since the early 1800s, theoretically taking a lot of the guesswork out of which
horoscopes to include or exclude in a solid data set. For a long time, this sounded good, until a few months
ago when I looked at a lot of charts of 2 dozen 19th and early 20th century French painters in the AstroDatabank. Suddenly I realized that most of them had birth times rounded to the nearest hours. The few that
did not were kind of the exception that proved the rule, with birth times on the half-hour.
I just double-checked them, and with birth times listed as from BC/BR (birth certificates/records?) and spot-on
the hour I just found Manet, Rodin, Morisat, Renoire, Matisse, Balthus, Bracque, Utrillo, Loire, ToulouseLautrec, Daumier, Roussean, Gaugin, and Masson; plus performing or eclectic artists Cocteau, Marceau, and von
Karajan (half-past). Degas was half-past the hour. There are more out there with rounded numbers in othercareers that I didn't study, but this sample reinforced my suspicions.
Whoa. The entire Gauquelin power zone thesis has to be based on accurate birth times, if positions withinhouses are to have any meaning. Apparently before the 1930s these French birth certificate times wereroutinely rounded to the nearest hour, to the point where it is hard to say how the Gauquelin data plots would
have behaved with accurate birth times.
And at this point, it is hard to say how the 19th and early 20th century French registries, hospitals, or
attending health-care providers so long ago rounded their numbers. Up? Down? The occasional half-pastbirths noted in the data made me think that the half-hour might have been some dividing line, but who cantell?
So there is still an interesting question, as to why the 9th and 12th houses show up so prominently with"smoothed" data in the Gauquelin summary charts, but it doesn't make an argument for renumbering housesof the horoscope.
And again, the houses are stationary. They don't move. So I don't see a "sufficient or necessary" reason for
their numbering to follow the direction of the planets and signs, which do seem to move from a geocentric
perspective. Or for house numbering not to follow the direction of the planets and signs.
But thanks for stimulating an interesting debate!

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Marina E

Re: The case for clockwise houses

Partridge« Reply #62 - on: 06.10.2010 at 07:59 [UT+1] »MemberWaybread. 30 minutes makes a difference of about 10 degrees, but the most distance the birthtime is likely to
be is 15 mins from the half hour or hour which is only 5 degrees.
I believe there are signs of faster and lower ascension so I could be wrong here. I just tried it will my own
Gemini AC.
So really that doesn't change Gauquelins data so much. By his diagram his hotzones start about 10 degs after
the AC and MC. If he is out by 10 degs then its possible the peak is at the angles which everyone agrees iswhere a planet is strongest. The use of Parans with fixed stars tallys with that.
How great the french had those records. I can see why Gauquelin get's everyones back up. I admire him for atPosts: 98
Gender:least trying to investigate Astrology scientifically. Poor guy killed himself. I was interested that both Hand andPowell seemed to rate him since he seems to get such a bad press generally.

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banditEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #63 - on: 06.10.2010 at 08:23 [UT+1] »if i were to create a chart for this precise moment in time,according to the stars, i would draw a horizon. upon
the western side of the horizon,at first light, will be the star in zodiacal reference of the milky way. plotting all
the "houses" would draw a circle rotating clockwise as they appear on the western horizon itself.
the divisions of the year, or one cycle of earths orbit, is divided into 12 divisions due to to "rough" workings ofthe full moons cyclic orbit.
various systems use various "starting points" and reference points, depending on the mass of data pertaining to
specific events assembled and plotted.
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #64 - on: 06.10.2010 at 08:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Marina (Darkstar) on 06.10.2010 at 07:59 [UT+1]:

30 minutes makes a difference of about 10 degrees, but the most distance the birthtime is likely to be is 15 mins from the half hour orhour which is only 5 degrees.

Posts: 292
Gender:

The AC moves 15 degrees every hour, so with rounding the birth time to the nearest hour, the most the AC will
be off is 7.5 degrees. I haven't read this Gauquelin stuff but depending on the sample size, the findings on
those zones should still be valid.

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banditEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #65 - on: 06.10.2010 at 09:06 [UT+1] »Quote from Jamie Darkstar on 06.10.2010 at 08:38 [UT+1]:
The AC moves 15 degrees every hour, so with rounding the birth time to the nearest hour, the most the AC will be off is 7.5 degrees. I
haven't read this Gauquelin stuff but depending on the sample size, the findings on those zones should still be valid.

sorry to be pedantic, but the AC does not move, the backdrop of stars move clockwise. the ground i standupon is firm and the horizon is always the horizon.
people wonder why thoughts become confused and this is an example of how words transferred from one
reality to thought constraint or fused with ideas can lead to a false picture being built.
again, this is not to dismiss your statement, as it can be easily understood, but i question your wording as it
conveys "facts" that are untrue.
forgive my critique, as it is i that seeks clarification due to torment of madness.
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Jamie Partridge
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #66 - on: 06.10.2010 at 09:41 [UT+1] »bandit, I worded it in common sense terms. Not too many of us here cast charts by first looking up at the sky.
You change the birth time, and the degree of the AC will change on the chart on the computer screen, that's
what we're all familiar with. Even still, it is the AC that moves, against the backdrop of the stars. It's our planet
spinning around that causes the change, not the stars spinning around the earth.

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banditEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #67 - on: 06.10.2010 at 10:02 [UT+1] »the stars rise in the west.
if i take a calculation at a certain time everyday and map a single star, it would appear to be moving west toeast.
our planets are in converse.
the AC is the ascension point or "coming into light" of that star it points towards.
easier to see from the mid heaven point, how can the mid heaven calculation change when it is a precise
calculation and instruments are used to ensure exacting results. it is not the mid heaven moving, but theoutcome of the calculation measured against the heavens themselves.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #68 - on: 06.10.2010 at 22:34 [UT+1] »Randolph,
Sorry I forgot to quote you.
Well, I was thinking a bit more simply, analogously to the daily cycle. So, if you start with the 4th as midnightor the turning to the day, you move through the cadent 3rd, being introduced to the eventually conscious self.
Then the succedent 2nd firming up the material of self. Then the first coming onto sunrise and exposure of
the conscious self. And so on. For instance, the 8th traditionally had an element of facing the oncoming night.
So my point was that the clockwise perspective of motion of the planets tells one tale of movement throughcycles based on diurnal motion. Other tales can proceed from counter-clockwise motion (you know, the oldself, self meets other, self starts getting socially conscious, self gets absorbed in the "greater" reality thing of
Rudhyar).
To an extent, this is about my favoring stories rooted in astronomically observable "facts" for insight into theapplication of the astrological tokens. And of course there are multiple stories available for any given set ofobservable or not so observable "facts".
- Ed
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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #69 - on: 06.10.2010 at 22:43 [UT+1] »Quote from bandit on 06.10.2010 at 10:02 [UT+1]:
the stars rise in the west.
if i take a calculation at a certain time everyday and map a single star, it would appear to be moving west to east.
our planets are in converse.
the AC is the ascension point or "coming into light" of that star it points towards.
easier to see from the mid heaven point, how can the mid heaven calculation change when it is a precise calculation and instruments areused to ensure exacting results. it is not the mid heaven moving, but the outcome of the calculation measured against the heavens
themselves.

First, you have it backwards: points on the celestial sphere rise in the east and move towards the west.
Second, as Einstein demonstrated, there is no privileged frame of reference. That doesn't mean you can't use
the pit of your stomach to measure the movement of the universe around you (I do for most astrological
purposes). But someone else might use the earth/moon barycenter (most astrologers) or the center of thesun, or ....
- Ed
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randolph b sayer
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #70 - on: 07.10.2010 at 00:03 [UT+1] »Quote from Jamie Darkstar on 06.10.2010 at 04:31 [UT+1]:

Never, but I have seen an Hellenistic system. A mastery of language?

Could be either as we enter the realms of common usage, you may not have been thinking about the using of
the h as a vowel or even where the term ellenistic came from - chances are latin to french to an adopting by lesanglais.... Lorenzo may have more to say on this but had you challenged him rather than me the egg on yourvisage may remain longer than it takes you to learn the latin for 'I could be getting out of my depth with thisgeezer' !!
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randolph b sayer

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #71 - on: 07.10.2010 at 01:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 06.10.2010 at 22:34 [UT+1]:
Randolph,
Sorry I forgot to quote you.
Well, I was thinking a bit more simply, analogously to the daily cycle. So, if you start with the 4th as midnight or the turning to the day,you move through the cadent 3rd, being introduced to the eventually conscious self. Then the succedent 2nd firming up the material ofself. Then the first coming onto sunrise and exposure of the conscious self. And so on. For instance, the 8th traditionally had an elementof facing the oncoming night.
So my point was that the clockwise perspective of motion of the planets tells one tale of movement through cycles based on diurnalmotion. Other tales can proceed from counter-clockwise motion (you know, the old self, self meets other, self starts getting sociallyconscious, self gets absorbed in the "greater" reality thing of Rudhyar).
To an extent, this is about my favoring stories rooted in astronomically observable "facts" for insight into the application of the astrologicaltokens. And of course there are multiple stories available for any given set of observable or not so observable "facts".
- Ed

Okey dokey, isn't the scope so open to schematic modelling.
I would be interested to see you progress this cyclic thought through all the houses clockwise back to the 4th.
As someone who is comfortable with the ''I exist - Asc/Aries'' equating to being conscious of the self as it were,
shifting this and other conceptual schematas won't be easy to adopt. Although I am aware you aren't
suggesting an either or here.

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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #72 - on: 07.10.2010 at 01:34 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 07.10.2010 at 01:11 [UT+1]:
I would be interested to see you progress this cyclic thought through all the houses clockwise back to the 4th.

But Hand already did that in Horoscope Symbols, right?
Quote:
As someone who is comfortable with the ''I exist - Asc/Aries'' equating to being conscious of the self as it were, shifting this and otherconceptual schematas won't be easy to adopt. Although I am aware you aren't suggesting an either or here.

But they coincide at the ascendant, don't you think?
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randolph b sayer

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #73 - on: 07.10.2010 at 04:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 07.10.2010 at 01:34 [UT+1]:
Quote from randolph b sayer on 07.10.2010 at 01:11 [UT+1]:
I would be interested to see you progress this cyclic thought through all the houses clockwise back to the 4th.

But Hand already did that in Horoscope Symbols, right?
Quote:
As someone who is comfortable with the ''I exist - Asc/Aries'' equating to being conscious of the self as it were, shifting
this and other conceptual schematas won't be easy to adopt. Although I am aware you aren't suggesting an either or here.

But they coincide at the ascendant, don't you think?

Don't think I have ever read it, but if you think I should wait until I do for a better presentation than you canoffer then no problem.
Coincide yes, and?
In this model you are becoming 'conscious' in house 4/1, as opposed to the 'norm' of conscious in house 1. A
slight similarity is the modern, if it is, notion (even token at a conceptual stretch) of in the 12th the'psyche/soul' (whatever) is in this embryonic womb like pre-incarnated state. Similar maybe to this state ofdarkness in your , and/or Hands, 4th/1st.

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #74 - on: 07.10.2010 at 05:06 [UT+1] »Quote from Marina (Darkstar) on 06.10.2010 at 07:59 [UT+1]:
Waybread. 30 minutes makes a difference of about 10 degrees, but the most distance the birthtime is likely to be is 15 mins from the halfhour or hour which is only 5 degrees.
I believe there are signs of faster and lower ascension so I could be wrong here. I just tried it will my own Gemini AC.
So really that doesn't change Gauquelins data so much. By his diagram his hotzones start about 10 degs after the AC and MC. If he is out
by 10 degs then its possible the peak is at the angles which everyone agrees is where a planet is strongest. The use of Parans with fixedstars tallys with that.
How great the french had those records. I can see why Gauquelin get's everyones back up. I admire him for at least trying to investigate
Astrology scientifically. Poor guy killed himself. I was interested that both Hand and Powell seemed to rate him since he seems to getsuch a bad press generally.

Posts: 14740
Gender:Marina, we are possibly debating whether the Gauquelin glass is half-empty or half-full. To me 10 degrees is alot. It is 1/3 of a sign, and 1/3 of a house in an equal house method. I can't say for sure that the French
record-keepers split the hour into halves; and from thence into quarter hours. Possibly the Gauquelins' said so,
but we cannot read this off the birth times rounded to the nearest hour. Until you get further into the 20th
century, I don't think the French birth times (at least for painters) are trustworthy enough to be used. For one
thing, the house cusps could be sufficiently off that the Gauquelins' 9th house planets could actually be outside
their peak zones, or even in another house.
I grant you, this still leaves an interesting problem of explaining the spikes in the 9th and 12th houses, but I
don't think it justifies changing house numbering.
Jamie, in the course of a day, the sun spends two hours per day in each house in an equal house system. This
would also be true of some hypothetical point within a sign that we call the ascendant, and then trace its
diurnal movement in 30-degree intervals from a geocentric viewpoint. But even using your 7.5 degree
measure, it makes a huge difference whether someone has a planet conjunct the AS from the 12th or the 1st,or whether it is further within the house; notably in connection with the Gauquelin power zones. The attachedchart is for the "Mars effect."
Ed, I wasn't aware that Einstein was a post-modernist!
BTW, I think the Gauquelins used the Placidus house system. Does anyone know for sure? The house system
might have some impact on their planetary placements.

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Gauquelin_chart.png (attachment deleted)
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Jamie Partridge

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #75 - on: 07.10.2010 at 06:06 [UT+1] »Quote from Waybread on 07.10.2010 at 05:06 [UT+1]:

Jamie, in the course of a day, the sun spends two hours per day in each house in an equal house system. This would also be true of somehypothetical point within a sign that we call the ascendant, and then trace its diurnal movement in 30-degree intervals from a geocentric
viewpoint. But even using your 7.5 degree measure, it makes a huge difference whether someone has a planet conjunct the AS from the12th or the 1st, or whether it is further within the house; notably in connection with the Gauquelin power zones. The attached chart is forthe "Mars effect."Posts: 292
Gender:

The greater the number of the sample size, the less important becomes the rounding of the birth time. Looks
like he didn't use any houses system, but divided the cirlce into 18 equal sectors: Is There Really a Mars
Effect? by Michel Gauquelin.

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Jamie Partridge
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #76 - on: 07.10.2010 at 06:29 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 07.10.2010 at 00:03 [UT+1]:

Could be either as we enter the realms of common usage

So I'll keep posting about the Sibley chart then.
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #77 - on: 07.10.2010 at 07:09 [UT+1] »[quote author=Jamie Darkstar link=1285939481/60#75 date=1286428008]Quote from Waybread on
07.10.2010 at 05:06 [UT+1]:

The greater the number of the sample size, the less important becomes the rounding of the birth time. Looks like he didn't use any houses
system, but divided the cirlce into 18 equal sectors: Is There Really a Mars Effect? by Michel Gauquelin.

Jamie, I guess you could argue that recording birth times only on the hour (with the occasional half-hour or
Posts: 14740
Gender:quarter hour thrown in) would produce a kind of a wash on the house placement of planets, given a big enoughsample. But this is like a hypothesis to be tested, not assumed, precisely because the Gauquelins are working
with fine divisions of the horoscope (degrees.) Their power zones for, say, the "Mars effect" fall off really sharply
from their spikes on the chart I attached above. So to be out a few degrees could mean that they are actuallyout a lot.
Also, whether the Gauquelins worked with 12 "sectors" (i.e., houses) or 18 is less fundamental than thequestion of which system they used to divide them. The MC and AC would remain constant, but other cusps
could change significantly between systems. With Placidus, notably with high latitude births if we assume that
the Mars effect operates north of France.
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that the "Mars Effect" is real. So far as I know, none of the otherplanetary effects that the Gauquelins concluded in their original work has held up to scrutiny. And the Mars
effect is strictly about predicting "sports champions." This seems like a very slender peg upon which to hang anargument for renumbering houses in the horoscope.
At some point, it may interest me enough to try to retrieve the Gauquelins' original studies. I read a couple oftheir popular books in the 1990s, but I don't recall much on their methods. I am not a statistician, so thiswould be tough slogging. But one thing I would be interested to learn about is their control groups, what theGs said about rounded birth times, about the problem of so few women appearing in a Who's Who for the 19th
and first half of the 20th century except in a few key professions, and whether the Gauquelins' whole notion of"eminence" would likely have any relevance to the charts of ordinary people.

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Jamie Partridge
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #78 - on: 07.10.2010 at 07:30 [UT+1] »Yep, it's a minefield. Not using house systems has really freed me up and I think I do better readings withoutthem.

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Marina E Partridge

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #79 - on: 07.10.2010 at 08:31 [UT+1] »Waybread I don't think the Gauquelin evidence is enough to base changing the numbering of house systems
either. And I don't think we should be switching back to clockwise, I have joined this thread, but I'm not reallymaking a case for clockwise houses.
When I wrote the article I was just reacting to Powell's and Hands statements about Gauquelin and wondering
why his data wasn't taken on board. This would effect the 12th house interps most of all.
I don't think i means doing anything radical to the house system structure. i just think it means looking at it ina new way. I have learn a lot from writing it that's for sure. It had got to the point I was so infuriated that I
was almost tempted to ditch them altogether also.
Posts: 98
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But no, Unlike Jamie I've decided I can not do without them. I find them essential in bringing the stars down toearth. Its the only way after the aspects that you can personalize the outer planets.
As a sun/moon/mc/mars/venus in Aquarius I always felt more Scorpionic and couldn't understand why. One of
the reasons I initially liked Equal houses was that I had that huge stellium in the 8th plus Mercury. But now I
believe the appeal to the "Dark side" is due to Pluto being square my AC by on 7 mins. But it could be both?

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randolph b sayer
Ex Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #80 - on: 07.10.2010 at 13:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Jamie Darkstar on 07.10.2010 at 06:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from randolph b sayer on 07.10.2010 at 00:03 [UT+1]:

Could be either as we enter the realms of common usage

So I'll keep posting about the Sibley chart then.

Don't you mean charts
By all means, my interest in Mundane Astrology is dubious.
However as you asked don't be put off by counter arguments to this masonic entity being other than an elected
symbolic scope, if challenged on it say 'so what'!
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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #81 - on: 07.10.2010 at 22:33 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 07.10.2010 at 04:24 [UT+1]:
Don't think I have ever read it, but if you think I should wait until I do for a better presentation than you can offer then no problem.

I'd go ahead and read it. Astrology is not my day job, and since Hand did it better than I'm likely to, I'm
disinclined to put the effort in.
Quote:
Coincide yes, and?
In this model you are becoming 'conscious' in house 4/1, as opposed to the 'norm' of conscious in house 1. A slight similarity is themodern, if it is, notion (even token at a conceptual stretch) of in the 12th the 'psyche/soul' (whatever) is in this embryonic womb like
pre-incarnated state. Similar maybe to this state of darkness in your , and/or Hands, 4th/1st.

Miscommunication again on the "conscious at 4th" comment. In this model, midnight would not represent
much in the way of consciousness. But then we move to sunrise where the coincidence of consciousness I
alluded to happens.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #82 - on: 07.10.2010 at 22:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Waybread on 07.10.2010 at 05:06 [UT+1]:
Ed, I wasn't aware that Einstein was a post-modernist!

But he was talking about coordinate systems rooted in time and space. As in geocentric vs topocentric vsheliocentric vs the infinity of other possible centers and ways of measuring from them. To me, for astrology, it
seems the pit of the belly is the right one around which to construct the primary models. But I don't discountother centers.
Quote:
BTW, I think the Gauquelins used the Placidus house system. Does anyone know for sure? The house system might have some impact on
their planetary placements.

They used rationalized semi-arc positions: the mundane method of the Magini/Placidus system. Place the local
meridian and horizon perpendicular to each other. For any point on the sphere, draw its declination circle anddetermine its proportional progress along it in its quadrant between those two axes. Multiply the proportion by
90 degrees. The resulting value is used to place the point in the Gauquelin sector (I forget how many of them
there were).
- Ed
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Re: The case for clockwise houses

randolph b sayer

Ex Member« Reply #83 - on: 07.10.2010 at 23:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 07.10.2010 at 22:33 [UT+1]:
Quote from randolph b sayer on 07.10.2010 at 04:24 [UT+1]:
Don't think I have ever read it, but if you think I should wait until I do for a better presentation than you can offer then no
problem.

I'd go ahead and read it. Astrology is not my day job, and since Hand did it better than I'm likely to, I'm disinclined to put the effort in.
Quote:
Coincide yes, and?
In this model you are becoming 'conscious' in house 4/1, as opposed to the 'norm' of conscious in house 1. A slightsimilarity is the modern, if it is, notion (even token at a conceptual stretch) of in the 12th the 'psyche/soul' (whatever) isin this embryonic womb like pre-incarnated state. Similar maybe to this state of darkness in your , and/or Hands, 4th/1st.

.
Miscommunication again on the "conscious at 4th" comment. In this model, midnight would not represent much in the way of
consciousness. But then we move to sunrise where the coincidence of consciousness I alluded to happens.

Okey dokey, without the full package in front of me I am also disinclined to start wondering to deeply about
this speculation, as it's Hands idea, or at least in some shape, it would probably deserve more than the glance
which forum interchanges can often end up effectively becoming.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #84 - on: 08.10.2010 at 00:08 [UT+1] »I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here, though I think the perspective has some value. If you'reinterested enough, do the homework yourself; if not, let it go.

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Waybread

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #85 - on: 08.10.2010 at 04:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Marina (Darkstar) on 07.10.2010 at 08:31 [UT+1]:
Waybread I don't think the Gauquelin evidence is enough to base changing the numbering of house systems either. And I don't think weshould be switching back to clockwise, I have joined this thread, but I'm not really making a case for clockwise houses.
When I wrote the article I was just reacting to Powell's and Hands statements about Gauquelin and wondering why his data wasn't taken
on board. This would effect the 12th house interps most of all.
I don't think i means doing anything radical to the house system structure. i just think it means looking at it in a new way. I have learn a
lot from writing it that's for sure. It had got to the point I was so infuriated that I was almost tempted to ditch them altogether also.
But no, Unlike Jamie I've decided I can not do without them. I find them essential in bringing the stars down to earth. Its the only way
after the aspects that you can personalize the outer planets.

Posts: 14740
Gender:

As a sun/moon/mc/mars/venus in Aquarius I always felt more Scorpionic and couldn't understand why. One of the reasons I initially liked
Equal houses was that I had that huge stellium in the 8th plus Mercury. But now I believe the appeal to the "Dark side" is due to Plutobeing square my AC by on 7 mins. But it could be both?

Hi, Marina--I am not in favour of conflating signs and houses--you know the kind of astrologer who describes"Venus in the 8th house or in Scorpio" as though there was no difference between them. But I do thinksometimes we see patterns in charts in which a house, a sign in the same rank-order in the horoscope, and thesign's ruler seem especially busy, then I think it is appropriate to describe her as responding to a particular"chord" or "key".
You may be a strongly 8th chord person, with your sun and stellium in the 8th, Pluto square your ascendant,
and perhaps aspecting other planets, and possibly some placements in Scorpio
Also, I don't know if you work with decans and dwads, but it would be interesting to see if you have a bunch ofthese in Scorpio.
I do agree with you and Jamie that houses today are highly problematical. I've been trying to learn more
about the reasons for astrology's fall from respectability in the 17th and 18th centuries, and apparently the
problem that astrologers couldn't agree on which house system was best had a fair bit to do with influential
critics claiming there just wasn't much to astrology if one of its basic cornerstones was so debatable.
If I had to choose just one tool in looking at planetary placements, for sure I would choose aspects over signs
and houses!
Ed, thanks for the explanation of the Gauquelin sectors. It is also a post-modernist/post-structuralist position
that so many of the principles we take for granted are not factual, but based upon our socially reinforced
beliefs. Then these are influenced by our location, period in history, and a lot of social factors like ethnicity andclass. Living in a post-Enlightenment democratic, and fairly affluent country, I can well believe that theindividual is the "standpoint" from which judgements are made. I suspect that if I were a medieval peasant,the king's or the pope's navel would have been the operational one, though, not mine!
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randolph b sayer
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #86 - on: 08.10.2010 at 05:30 [UT+1] »Quote:
I've been trying to learn more about the reasons for astrology's fall from respectability in the 17th and 18th centuries, and apparently the
problem that astrologers couldn't agree on which house system was best had a fair bit to do with influential critics claiming there justwasn't much to astrology if one of its basic cornerstones was so debatable.

I trust you are not underestimating the Earth goes round the Sun phenomena, not sure the 'oi Newton divides
it up this way and Hume t'other ' was much of a factor, just an assumption.........
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Ed Falis

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #87 - on: 08.10.2010 at 22:17 [UT+1] »Clearly we had a miscommunication. "Rising" is conventionally taken as meaning coming up over the horizon in the east. But what you describe, that the culminating point of the zodiac moves in the opposite direction
through the year, is also true. The first is an ascensional property related to diurnal motion; the latter is aseasonal property related to annual motion. Yes, if there were no axial rotation, what you're describing would
be much more obvious. We're both right; our language just didn't meet on common ground.
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Waybread
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #88 - on: 09.10.2010 at 03:14 [UT+1] »Quote from randolph b sayer on 08.10.2010 at 05:30 [UT+1]:
Quote:
I've been trying to learn more about the reasons for astrology's fall from respectability in the 17th and 18th centuries, andapparently the problem that astrologers couldn't agree on which house system was best had a fair bit to do with influential
critics claiming there just wasn't much to astrology if one of its basic cornerstones was so debatable.

I trust you are not underestimating the Earth goes round the Sun phenomena, not sure the 'oi Newton divides it up this way and Humet'other ' was much of a factor, just an assumption.........

Posts: 14740
Gender:Apparently there were several reasons for astrology's fall from respectability. Two good sources on it are Jim
Tester, A History of Western Astrology, pp. 238-41; and Nicholas Campion, A History of Western Astrology, Vol.
II, pp. 177-191.

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randolph b sayer

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #89 - on: 09.10.2010 at 05:15 [UT+1] »Quote from Waybread on 09.10.2010 at 03:14 [UT+1]:
Quote from randolph b sayer on 08.10.2010 at 05:30 [UT+1]:
Quote:
I've been trying to learn more about the reasons for astrology's fall from respectability in the 17th and 18th
centuries, and apparently the problem that astrologers couldn't agree on which house system was best had afair bit to do with influential critics claiming there just wasn't much to astrology if one of its basic
cornerstones was so debatable.

I trust you are not underestimating the Earth goes round the Sun phenomena, not sure the 'oi Newton divides it up thisway and Hume t'other ' was much of a factor, just an assumption.........

Apparently there were several reasons for astrology's fall from respectability. Two good sources on it are Jim Tester, A History of Western
Astrology, pp. 238-41; and Nicholas Campion, A History of Western Astrology, Vol. II, pp. 177-191.

What comes around.............the other day I was suggesting streaming consciousness Titan read the Campion.
Campion makes the point that astrology's demise was dependent on time and place, i.e may have only been
one mystic meg in Bognor Regis by 1754 but in Budapest still 3 making ends meet.
But yes multi-faceted, from what I've read the increasing knowledge of the natural world proved moretroublesome than other developments, but I could be wrong. Campion says there were no tests but I do recall
reading about one conducted around the end of the 16th century. Maybe not a test the way we do these todaywith variables and complex stats but if i recall right someone at a university got some fellows together went
through their lives and said no common ground here, or something like this. Doubt I saved the ref but if i find
it i'll try and remember to post something.
Bear in mind the idea it almost died out may be a bit of a fallacy. Today in a sense it has died out, it's not partof the mainstream and really just of interest to a few nutters, dreamboats and the odd psychotherapist.............
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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #90 - on: 09.10.2010 at 05:40 [UT+1] »Pursuing simplistic thoughts regarding "the case for clockwise houses":
two starting points have been introduced, perhaps more, as I've been away;
That the 12th becomes the first house, or the 3rd becomes the first house.
I've spent some time contemplating how these might work for my own chart and a few others.
The former (12th as 1st) seems to make more sense as I follow it around the wheel (no offense, Ed),but in the end, this topic truly is asking me to evaluate the importance/description of the houses.
They can be shape-shifted about. That's a profound conclusion.

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Waybread

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #91 - on: 10.10.2010 at 03:53 [UT+1] »Andrew, I didn't suggest that astrology "died out" during the Enlightenment: clearly it did not, but it lost its
stature as a university subject and in the eyes of well educated people. No two places were identical inastrology's demise; but the leading intellectuals (and not so leading) were aware of one another's work andviewpoints. The situation was a bit different in England, where it became highly politicized (Patrick Curry,
Astrology and Power: Astrology in Early Modern England.) It survived in farmers' almanacs and other forms of
popular culture.
It also occured to me that there is another way in which planets appear to move "backward" through the signs
but in order of the current house numbers, and that is with progressions.
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banditEx Member

Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #92 - on: 10.10.2010 at 09:15 [UT+1] »the way governors use there power is obvious to those that can reason and hurtful to those that cant. theEuropeans belong to a society that has gone through many changes and when some guy comes out with"heretic" observations as "the earth is round", he is killed for his treason. this word treason can be understoodas trans reason of the governing bodies ideology. any body that is against astrology is using Uranus thoughts
to realize concepts that can be proven, all the while holding Neptune energies captive and enslaved.
kabbalistic understandings use analogies of an "alien" that permeates through all life secretly communicatingwith itself. you could say this is another wives tale that we have grown out of, but the strange thing is, society
has dis-associated itself and "believes" the alien is out there. this is typical of Uranus and its function.
the truth will set you free.
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Apostrophe

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #93 - on: 10.10.2010 at 18:45 [UT+1] »It's taken me all week to get my head round the concepts on this thread, and thank you Ed and Moira for
explaining the basic principles of how the horoscope is really made up of two systems - a yearly Sun-Earthsystem for the signs, and a daily earth's rotation for the houses.
My philosophy regarding astrology is not to base its validity on who invented it, or when, but whether it makesense. Can we relate to real facts about the world we live in, right now?

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So regarding the houses, whoever invented the counter-clockwise system, was, IMO, simply relating them to
day and night; above the horizon is day, below the horizon is night. From this, we get the ascendant as dawn
and the descendant as dusk. A poster earlier on in this thread (sorry I can't recall who it was) mentioned thatthe original system might have been based on 4 such points, or maybe 8, like the Moon's phases. I have readthis in the history of astrology, and it would make sense to me.
This way, the sun and midday, where it is brightest and casts on shadows would be right at the top of the chart,
in what we know as the 10th houses, and when the Sun was below the horizon at midnight it would be in what
we know as the 4th house.
But how can we relate these physical correlations to human psychology? Has anyone noticed that early in themorning, when people have just gotten up out of bed and on their way to work (near sunrise in the winter)they are "bleary eyed" and still half asleep? This would relate quite well I think to the common delineations of
the 12th house.
So why might Gauquelin have found such strong correlations for certain planets in the 12th house? My
explanation (based on spiritual psychology) is that this "semi-sleep" state is actually very powerful. The
subconscious mind is the storehouse of the imagination, which is the engine of creation. Suggestions that wegive our subconscious minds during the time we are in a semi-sleep state are very powerful, so that if there issome sort of astrological influence on our 12th house, it would influence our whole future ambitions.
Gauquelin also found a slight spike in data for the 6th house (not nearly as big as the 12th and 9th houses
however). The 6th house is just after dusk, when we are getting ready for night and sleep. IMO, this is anothertime when our subconscious minds are amenable to suggestion.
Also, if the original houses were just 4 or 8, as suggested hisorically, I can see how some of them would
correlate to human activities; the 8th house in the regular anti-clockwise system would be correlated with thedaily "death" of the sun as it sinks below the horizon. The 7th house is where people, coming home from work
share time with their spouses or partners. The 6th house just after dusk is where they eat their main meal andmaybe see to personal hygiene. The 5th house - love making before sleep? 4th house - everyone should be
most absorbed in sleep.
The first "quarter" of the chart, houses 1-3 in the regular system, is when people are still asleep, and forming
their inner subconscious patterns. These are the most personal houses. The first house for example is all about
the self, as if it were "set:" before birth.
So, whoever invented the anti-clockwise system, it makes sense psychologically, IMO.

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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #94 - on: 10.10.2010 at 18:56 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 10.10.2010 at 18:45 [UT+1]:...
So, whoever invented the anti-clockwise system, it makes sense psychologically, IMO.

But (ignoring house numbering, which is irrelevant except as a basis for discussion), all of your examples werebased on the clockwise motion of the sun through the houses. So I'm confused by this statement.
As an aside, it looks as though several participants thought that my suggestion for considering the clockwiseorder of the houses implied renumbering them. That is not what I meant. Keep the same numbers, but thinkof what complementary derivations of the meanings of the houses as currently numbered are related to theclockwise motion of the sun from midnight to midnight.
- Ed
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Oscillating

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #95 - on: 10.10.2010 at 20:55 [UT+1] »Quote:As an aside, it looks as though several participants thought that my suggestion for considering the clockwise order of the houses implied
renumbering them. That is not what I meant. Keep the same numbers, but think of what complementary derivations of themeanings of the houses as currently numbered are related to the clockwise motion of the sun from midnight to midnight.
- Ed

My knowledge of astrology is nothing compared to Ed's (and many of the other participants), but this is exactly
the conclusion I drew for myself from this discussion. That this closwise perspective is not about abandoning
the traditional house systems and house meanings but adding an extra dimension to it.
I like Realworld's description of clockwise houses as symbolic of the ordinary daily rhytm of life and I wonder
whether it would be useful to examine event charts this way.
And I still think that looking at the IC-Asc-MC-Dsc-IC cycle in this order makes lot of sense if we want todescribe individual development, "the seven ages of man". I was at the beginnig a bit confused by the apparent
disproportion of the time correspondences - as I see it, if we want to connect the houses to human age inclockwise order, 3rd house should correspond to the first 1-2 years, the twelfth house (6th in clockwise order)
to adolescence, maybe age 14 and the MC should correspond to yound adulthood- and this way houses would
represent a longer and longer period of time. However, it occured to me that subjectively we experience timeslowing down as we grow older: for a baby's development a couple of months would make a huge difference so
it is natural that the first houses would correspond to shorter periods of time than the later ones.
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Apostrophe
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #96 - on: 10.10.2010 at 21:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 10.10.2010 at 18:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from realworld on 10.10.2010 at 18:45 [UT+1]:...
So, whoever invented the anti-clockwise system, it makes sense psychologically, IMO.

But (ignoring house numbering, which is irrelevant except as a basis for discussion), all of your examples were based on the clockwise
motion of the sun through the houses. So I'm confused by this statement.

Posts: 2454

Yes, sorry for the confusion. By anti-clockwise, I meant the traditional house numbering, corresponding to the
Zodiac signs, Aries=1, Taurus=2 etc, not the apparent motion of the Sun. which is clockwise.
Quote:As an aside, it looks as though several participants thought that my suggestion for considering the clockwise order of the houses implied
renumbering them. That is not what I meant. Keep the same numbers, but think of what complementary derivations of the meanings ofthe houses as currently numbered are related to the clockwise motion of the sun from midnight to midnight.
- Ed

Well I do think that a complimentary meaning of the 12th house, as explained in my last post, is that it could
be the most important, or #1 as far as the Law Of Suggestion was concerned. There is a lot of the dream state
subconscious influence in people when they have just woken up, which could lead to future plans andambitions.
The 11th house of groups, friends and social organization also correlates well with school or work activities once
we've gotten to work and are a bit more awake in the morning. So in some respects, it is 2nd important in thedaily routine for forming our personality.
By midday, we have shown people what we can do - they have formed an impression of us and we have areputation - the 10th house! By 2pm we are relaxing at bit at work or school - it is a time for meetings to
discuss future plans and time to have some fun - the 9th house. By 4pm we are thinking about going home andwinding down the day - it is when the sun is fading in strength, but maybe when we feel proud that we haveachieved something, rather like a 5th house/Leo overlay.
And when we get home we see our partners or talk about our day to other people 7th etc. But it is the 6thhouse that the Sun travels through, so in this respect the complimentary meaning is tidying up before we gohome from work or school (writing down our homework). I'm sure that with some imagination and stretching
we can do the same with the night houses.
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Smart alec

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #97 - on: 10.10.2010 at 21:57 [UT+1] »And 10 pm is when couples typically get horizontal. Midnight is when one falls asleep from getting horizontal at
10 pm. 2 am is when people get up from having a nap & go out and party. 4 am is when everyone is asleep forgood. And 6 am... I'm stuck here.
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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #98 - on: 10.10.2010 at 22:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Smart alec on 10.10.2010 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
And 10 pm is when couples typically get horizontal. Midnight is when one falls asleep from getting horizontal at 10 pm. 2 am is whenpeople get up from having a nap & go out and party. 4 am is when everyone is asleep for good. And 6 am... I'm stuck here.

Sure. Don't take it too literally. It's just suggestion for coloring the meanings of the houses.
- Ed
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Smart alec

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #99 - on: 10.10.2010 at 22:02 [UT+1] »Take what literally? I was adding on to real world's post about examples of the houses. Got stuck at the firsthouse.

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Ed Falis
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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #100 - on: 10.10.2010 at 22:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Smart alec on 10.10.2010 at 22:02 [UT+1]:
Take what literally? I was adding on to real world's post about examples of the houses. Got stuck at the first house.

Sorry, misunderstood the context.
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Apostrophe

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #101 - on: 11.10.2010 at 00:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Smart alec on 10.10.2010 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
And 10 pm is when couples typically get horizontal. Midnight is when one falls asleep from getting horizontal at 10 pm. 2 am is whenpeople get up from having a nap & go out and party. 4 am is when everyone is asleep for good. And 6 am... I'm stuck here.

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But seriously, before the days of partying at 2am, cavemen probably slept through the night. And in caseanyone is wondering if my "daytime" houses were biased towards modern urban living, well I think that humans
evolved some sort of structure in their lives very early on, even though it would not be "going to work" orschool. It might have been sitting round the morning fire discussing how to organize the community or firstvillages (11th house).
I too get stuck with the later night houses; 6th, 5th and 4th are quite straightforward - tidying the cave,
making love and going to bed - where one makes his/her bed is one's true home/4th house. But houses 3, 2
and I are a bit tricky because this is when most of us are asleep.
I was thinking about the tarot images for Gemini, Taurus and Aries and got this idea (the tarot images describe
the internal psychological processes, and relationship between our self-conscious and sub-conscious minds).
Between midnight and 2 am, when most of us are alseep, the Sun is in our 3rd house. It is a time of deep
sleep, when the body grows and repairs itself. It might be that during this stage of sleep, our frontal cortex,
the part of the brain governing cognition and discrimination (Gemini) gets the most blood flow and nutrition.
Also dreams during this stage are a "conversation" between our subconscious and self-conscious minds, sortingout all the impressions from the day.
The second house would be activated by the Sun between 2 and 4 am, and we should be asleep still. Maybe it isat this time in the sleep cycle that the part of the brain governing intuition gets the most action in terms ofblood flow.
And 4-6am (going by equinox times - they would of course be different towards the solstices), would be when
we are still asleep just before dawn. We know from psychology that the quality of dreams changes throughout
the night. We also know from esoteric astrology and occultism that Aries rules the inner seeing, some saying
corresponding to the pineal gland (esoteric "3rd eye"). Maybe it is at this time of sleep cycle that people's pineal
glands are most stimulated by blood flow.

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #102 - on: 11.10.2010 at 03:12 [UT+1] »I don't think the numbering of houses in either direction transparently argues for any kind of logicalprogression.
If we number houses clockwise, then the "house of death" (8) precedes the house of marriage (7) and thehouse of one's children (5) preceeds the house of one's home (4) or the house of one's siblings (3).
If we number the houses counter-clockwise, then a cynic might see the logic in the house of death (8)preceding one's career/public image (10) or "journeys over water" (9) but I don't.
Because the counter-clockwise system is so common, some esoteric modern astrologers (like Dane Rudhyar)
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Gender:were great ones for rank-ordering signs and houses to simulate the path of enlightened people's evolution, but
I just don't think this works. See for example, Deborah Houlding's, Temples of the Sky. Shall we ask everyone
on this thread what sign or house your sun is in, and then see if enlightenment stacks up in any kind of rankorder?
But in either case, we are looking at circular, not linear time. What follows the 12th house in either system?
The 1st house. The house of friends and hopes for the future (11) gets nixed in the 12 house of endings andself-undoing. But then after that happens, we run into the first house, in which one's body and personality arevery much the focus.
realworld, are you familiar with the criticisms of the Gauquelins' research? I just don't see their full-blown
studies as the basis for a serious discussion of astrological houses. Even their Mars Effect was based on "sports
champions", and that's about it.

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Apostrophe

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Re: The case for clockwise houses« Reply #103 - on: 12.10.2010 at 19:05 [UT+1] »On reading through this thread, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things:
Quote from chatcat on 04.10.2010 at 06:40 [UT+1]:
You are talking about the northern hemisphere. The Southern is opposite. HOwever we convert all charts back to Greenwich mean time in
London and the seasons are really not valid with astrology as such.

Posts: 2454

As far as signs go, astrologers really should do something about the way we handle Southern Hemispherecharts, possibly solving the problem by having 6 bipolar signs in the Tropical Zodiac. We cannot change theSideral Zodiac, but we could, in theory, adapt the Tropical Zodiac.
I hope I'm not misunderstanding you. But if you are proposing also changing the house system for theSouthern Hemisphere, I do not think that we need to do that, since the daily apparent motion of the Sun andplanets through the segments of the sky would remain the same.
Quote:
As for clockwise houses, that simply doesnt make sense. You cant change the basic principles and workings of the Universe. For instance inEurope the seasons begin at the solstices of around 21st of the month but in a country like Australia in the south our seasons are different
and really earlier. The world climate is changing and we can no longer strictly adhere to the equinoxes to measure climate in my opinion...
We can experiment all we like and try different methods but truth is truth.

It is true that the earth's climate is changing, but the amount of sunlight at the equinoxes and solstices etc has
not changed. We can see nature taking a toll from climate change already, but things like seed germination andanimal mating still seem to respond to the length of day. It seems reasonable (to me anyway) that a modern"skeptical", rational theory of how astrology might work would be based on human personality being directly
linked to this change in day length and amount of sunlight.
Also wanted to comment on the 8th house being designated as the "house of death". As others have mentioned(sorry I still can't find the exact post), the original house system was only 8 houses. Rupert Gleadow, in his
book The Origin Of The Zodiac says "this is probably why the eighth house is called the house of death; at one
time it was the last."
As Waybread pointed out, there seem to be inconsistencies which ever way we number the houses, but weshould remember that there are several designations to the house meanings, each one with a certain degree of
esoteric or psychological meaning. A modern spiritual/psychological for the 8th house is the house of"transmutation" - which eliminates the fear of physical death for both students of astrology and anyone trying
to give another person a reading without putting fear into their minds. Another example of a psychologicalword rather than a strictly sense-bound word would be House 2; instead of "possessions" we could call it"value". When we use these psychological words, we can probably string them all together to make some sortof logical story, whichever way we go around the circle.
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