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Antipodean Dignities (Read 1128 times)_Paul_Ex Member

Antipodean Dignities« on: 02.05.2012 at 17:04 [UT+1] »Recently I've had cause to question the essential dignities as they apply to antipodean charts.
Having seen a few charts from Australia I've begun to wonder how effective they are in southern hemisphereclimates.
I wonder if people born in Australia/South America/New Zealand/South Africa etc. could post their charts, but
only if the planets are in either domicile/exaltation/detriment/fall and we can examine what we'd expect fromthose planets against what we know of how they affect your life.
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #1 - on: 02.05.2012 at 17:36 [UT+1] »This sounds like it's going to be an interesting thread _Paul_
Just a question though ............. and i'm probably missing the obvious BUT what is the significance of thesouthern hemisphere climates and the chart?
And also what are antipodean charts?

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #2 - on: 02.05.2012 at 17:41 [UT+1] »Antipodean means southern hemisphere.
So charts for people born in the southern hemisphere, what I mean is the essential dignities for those charts.
We all know that Mars is exalted in Capricorn, but this is because some northern hemisphere astrologers
decreed that it's so.
But I'm beginning to notice that it's reversed in the southern hemisphere, or at least beginning to question
whether it is because it doesn't seem to be working properly for those charts. Something's not right.
Hence my curiosity on it. The dignities, like domicile dignity, apparently are bred from seasonal attributions seasonal attributions in the northern hemisphere that is.
Alice McDermott has commented briefly on another thread where I ask her what her experience is of them.
She's an australian astrologers with buckets of experience. She doesn't use them because she's not been
convinced they work. Of course if my theory is correct that would make perfect sense, because they DON'T work
as expected.
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #3 - on: 02.05.2012 at 20:09 [UT+1] »Thanks Paul.

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Matrika Matters
Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #4 - on: 03.05.2012 at 00:20 [UT+1] »Here's an antipodean chart for you, not sure if it is what you are looking for...Venus is exalted in Pisces.
I lived in the northern hemisphere for twenty years. Returned to Australia in '96.

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MariaMGF

Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #5 - on: 03.05.2012 at 01:48 [UT+1] »Paul, what do you expect to find looking at planets in the domicile/anti-domicile, exaltation/fall?
Using the medieval systems prescribed by skyscript/william Lilly will tell you that an exalted planet is like an'honoured guest' and a planet in its fall must be like a dishonoured guest. To me this makes no sense.
In my understanding, a planet in 'any of its own places' has 'resources' to work with. That still doesn't meanthat the particular planet can have much affect on a chart unless it is of the sect, angular and well connected;
its primary significations. My partner is explaining things like this on his forum but I will have to check with him
and see if he has posted it yet.
In Matrika's chart she, has Venus and Jupiter in their own places, and in the 11th whole sign house makes themquite beneficial, though Jupiter more so because it is of the diurnal sect. Add to that, Jupiter and Venus being
attacked by Mars (and Saturn) from the 5th and it kind of throws a spanner in the works. The 11th place has to
do with what we receive from our actions (10th) but, the 11th house tends to be more beneficial for the latter
half of her life.
I just cannot see how you can measure a generic exaltation/fall unless it is taken in context. The lot of Fortuneis in the 6th house and Venus/Jupiter are in the 6th fortune house which again are slightly problematic. I will
check with my partner about his post and get back to you, as he is able to explain it in better detail than me. I
have only been learning for a couple years, so I am still absorbing.
Maria
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PhoebeEx Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #6 - on: 03.05.2012 at 06:21 [UT+1] »Here's another antipodean chart.
I also found this on Martin Gansten's website:
Quote:
Ptolemy’s reform was part of his striving to make astrology conform to the science of his time by anchoring it firmly to seasonal changes
and the fourfold qualities of hot, cold, moist and dry. In so doing, he formulated definitions which are in fact applicable only to thenorthern hemisphere and thereby make astrology less universal. The Sun’s passage through Cancer and Leo may mark the hottest seasonof the year around the Mediterranean, but this is simultaneously the coldest season in New Zealand; and in areas close to the equator,
there are no seasons at all in Ptolemy’s sense

http://www.martingansten.com/ts.php
This is an informative website of a research project by Macquarie University into studying Aboriginal
Astronomy/cosmology that may offer insights into how to adapt the signs to our seasonal rhythms.
http://aboriginalastronomy.blogspot.com.au/
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PhoebeEx Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #7 - on: 03.05.2012 at 06:32 [UT+1] »Another chart of a baby-boomer born and raised in the 'land of the long white cloud'.
A link to an article by Brian Clark of Astrosynthesis here in Melbourne (The Chiron Centre)
Southern Signs and Seasons
http://www.astrosynthesis.com.au/articles/the_southern_signs.pdf
Quote:Southern Hemisphere astrology projects its own psychology onto the zodiac. While the roots of our Western astrology are Northern theessence of the signs remain true to those who experience them then south of the Equator.......However ....... technical mechanics do notalter the archetypal essence of the zodiac, life’s wheel. It only needs to be adapted to the culture and individual thatviews it. Reversing it would be colluding with a northern bias.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #8 - on: 03.05.2012 at 09:13 [UT+1] »Quote from MariaMGF on 03.05.2012 at 01:48 [UT+1]:
Paul, what do you expect to find looking at planets in the domicile/anti-domicile, exaltation/fall?
Using the medieval systems prescribed by skyscript/william Lilly will tell you that an exalted planet is like an 'honoured guest' and aplanet in its fall must be like a dishonoured guest. To me this makes no sense.
In my understanding, a planet in 'any of its own places' has 'resources' to work with. That still doesn't mean that the particular planet canhave much affect on a chart unless it is of the sect, angular and well connected; its primary significations. My partner is explaining things
like this on his forum but I will have to check with him and see if he has posted it yet.
In Matrika's chart she, has Venus and Jupiter in their own places, and in the 11th whole sign house makes them quite beneficial, though
Jupiter more so because it is of the diurnal sect. Add to that, Jupiter and Venus being attacked by Mars (and Saturn) from the 5th and it
kind of throws a spanner in the works. The 11th place has to do with what we receive from our actions (10th) but, the 11th house tends tobe more beneficial for the latter half of her life.
I just cannot see how you can measure a generic exaltation/fall unless it is taken in context. The lot of Fortune is in the 6th house andVenus/Jupiter are in the 6th fortune house which again are slightly problematic. I will check with my partner about his post and get backto you, as he is able to explain it in better detail than me. I have only been learning for a couple years, so I am still absorbing.
Maria

I don't really go along with Lilly on everything he says, I find him a bit of a sloppy writer at times.
Of course sect and everything else needs to be taken into account as well. I'm particularly interested in seeing
the significations of those houses signified by a malefic and checking if the themes and manifestations of thathouse's theme relates to the dignity of that planet (yes, sect, accidental dignity and so forth need to beconsidered as well, but they always do so it didn't seem worth highlighting)
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PhoebeEx Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #9 - on: 03.05.2012 at 09:47 [UT+1] »Astrology In Earth's Northern And Southern Hemispheres - The Whole Earth, Dual-Sign, 6 sign, or
Mirror Zodiac:
A Possible Solution To The Problem Of Matching Astrology's Seasonally-Derived, Northern Hemisphere Zodiac
Signs To Countries In The Southern Hemisphereby Barbara Ferrara 2010,
This article was presented to the Los Angeles Chapter of the National Council for Geocosmic Research (NCGR),
December 2010.
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/alchemy/astrology/bipolarzodiac.html
Quote:In order to make Southern Hemisphere horoscopes reflective of the seasons, which Ptolemy intended, we need to reverse the Tropical
Zodiac horoscope for those regions. A logical way to do this is by having a six-sign, dual, or bipolar Zodiac as suggested above. This
adaptive Zodiac would also be in harmony with modern scientific evidence that shows that personality is dependent on season of birth.

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MaryD
Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #10 - on: 03.05.2012 at 09:48 [UT+1] »Hi Paul,I'll post mine, I'm also a land of the long white clouder.
My E in domicile and G in detriment.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #11 - on: 03.05.2012 at 09:54 [UT+1] »A couple of people have asked what I mean by this thread or were confused by it.
I'll clarify.
Mars is a malefic. According to the tradition of astrology Mars rules Aries and Scorpio and is exalted in
Capricorn. Being simplistic about it, this means that the malefic nature of mars is mitigated and controlled inthose signs so that it is on its best behaviour. If we liken Mars to fire we can see that fire is dangerous, hence
we say fire is malefic. We do not mean it is evil or 'bad'. Just that coming into contact with it could be
dangerous.
If Mars is in dignity, then it is like fire is in the fire place - right where it belongs to give out light and heat. It's
the best place for fire to be as it is well behaved and controlled and acts in a beneficial manner.
However when Mars is in Cancer, Taurus or Libra it is debilitated. To continue our example, it is like fire placed
beside flammable substances. It is less controlled and more likely to display its more harmful or dangerous
qualities.
Now these are all analogies. Planets in deteriment or fall do not make one wicked, evil or malevolant. But it
might mean that those areas of life which are signified by the house that those planets rule are more difficult or
stressful. It can also show, in my view, that the planet is expressed in a more out of the box or unusual
manner.
But as the malefics in particular tend to be well behaved in dignity, and not so well behaved in debility, thoseareas of life ruled by them should be similarly reflected.
However, these dignities were assigned because of the northern hemisphere perspective (from what we canmake out) and so how should they be relevant in the southern hemisphere? Saturn has dignity in Aquarius andCapricorn because the climates during those signs, namely being cold and dry, suit Saturn's nature which issimilarly cold and dry. But in the southern hemisphere it is Leo and Cancer that relate to being colder and dryer
than normal.
So the question of the dignities is brought up. Should they be reversed for the reversed logic of the southernhemisphere?
Maybe not, but it is certainly possible. Hence this thread.
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PhoebeEx Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #12 - on: 03.05.2012 at 10:16 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 09:54 [UT+1]:

So the question of the dignities is brought up. Should they be reversed for the reversed logic of the southern hemisphere?

Is that a polite way of saying antipodeans are backwards, Paul?
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #13 - on: 03.05.2012 at 10:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Phoebe on 03.05.2012 at 10:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 09:54 [UT+1]:

So the question of the dignities is brought up. Should they be reversed for the reversed logic of the southern hemisphere?

Is that a polite way of saying antipodeans are backwards, Paul?

Ha ha not at all. I've yet to meet an Australian, Kiwi or South African I've not liked.
Well that's a lie, I met one austrlian who was a total d**k, but we can forgive Australia for him!
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Re: Antipodean Dignities

PhoebeEx Member« Reply #14 - on: 03.05.2012 at 10:22 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 10:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Phoebe on 03.05.2012 at 10:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 09:54 [UT+1]:

So the question of the dignities is brought up. Should they be reversed for the reversed logic of the southernhemisphere?

Is that a polite way of saying antipodeans are backwards, Paul?

Ha ha not at all. I've yet to meet an Australian, Kiwi or South African I've not liked.
Well that's a lie, I met one austrlian who was a total d**k, but we can forgive Australia for him!

Yeah, that would be Shane Warne. Trust me, we haven't forgiven ourselves for producing him!
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Greg Young

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #15 - on: 03.05.2012 at 11:08 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 09:54 [UT+1]:
If Mars is in dignity, then it is like fire is in the fire place - right where it belongs to give out light and heat. It's the best place for fire to
be as it is well behaved and controlled and acts in a beneficial manner.

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I am lucky enough to possess exalted Ej and that describes me exactly..very measured, mature and dignified
in my behaviour..everything is very controlled and measured. If only others were as me!
Many could learn from us dignified Ej, I have little time for trivialities and silliness but nevertheless I preferto keep my counsel and restrict myself to a dignified silence on such matters rather than say anything to
inflame a situation that is beneath me and my preferred high standards.
Yours Respectfully,
Greg

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Re: Antipodean Dignities

Greg Young
Member« Reply #16 - on: 03.05.2012 at 11:13 [UT+1] »Quote:
However when Mars is in Cancer, Taurus or Libra it is debilitated. To continue our example, it is like fire placed beside flammable
substances. It is less controlled and more likely to display its more harmful or dangerous qualities.

This is fine, Paul but I DO feel you have to present specific examples pertaining to people that we all know...justasserting a point isn't enough really.
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G

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Re: Antipodean Dignities_Paul_Ex Member« Reply #17 - on: 03.05.2012 at 11:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Greg Young on 03.05.2012 at 11:13 [UT+1]:
Quote:
However when Mars is in Cancer, Taurus or Libra it is debilitated. To continue our example, it is like fire placed besideflammable substances. It is less controlled and more likely to display its more harmful or dangerous qualities.

This is fine, Paul but I DO feel you have to present specific examples pertaining to people that we all know...just asserting a point isn't
enough really.
G

I like to explain a point in a more general or common way first, often using analogies that we all understand. To
clarify the point I may offer examples. The entire point of this thread is to look for examples. It isn't to explain
the traditional nature of malefic and benefic planets or how they are affected by their dignity. That isn't themain focus, but it is necessary to know to explore the focus in more detail. Seeing as the main focus asks forexamples, it seems obvious that when we get to interpreting the charts we'll see those examples played out.
Also the problem with focusing on examples is that there are always mitigating cirumstances in each chart. I
prefer to portray the point in more general theoretical terms first and foremost. This is just my style.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #18 - on: 03.05.2012 at 11:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Greg Young on 03.05.2012 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 09:54 [UT+1]:
If Mars is in dignity, then it is like fire is in the fire place - right where it belongs to give out light and heat. It's the bestplace for fire to be as it is well behaved and controlled and acts in a beneficial manner.

I am lucky enough to possess exalted

Ej and that describes me exactly..very measured, mature and dignified in my

behaviour..everything is very controlled and measured. If only others were as me!
Many could learn from us dignified

Ej, I have little time for trivialities and silliness but nevertheless I prefer to keep my counsel andrestrict myself to a dignified silence on such matters rather than say anything to inflame a situation that is beneath me and my preferredhigh standards.
Yours Respectfully,
Greg

Ha ha, exaltation can often be seen as the planet having an inflated sense of itself(I'm teasing of course)
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Greg Young

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #19 - on: 03.05.2012 at 11:31 [UT+1] »Pauls theory could turn astrology as we know it completely on its head. We are witnessing a total REVOLUTION
in both science, nature and the World as we know it!
Carry on, Paul.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #20 - on: 03.05.2012 at 11:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Greg Young on 03.05.2012 at 11:31 [UT+1]:
Pauls theory could turn astrology as we know it completely on its head. We are witnessing a total REVOLUTION in both science, nature andthe World as we know it!
Carry on, Paul.

Not really. It's been mentioned several times before. I just don't know what the conclusion is and thought wemight like to examine it here.
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #21 - on: 03.05.2012 at 12:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Matrika on 03.05.2012 at 00:20 [UT+1]:
Here's an antipodean chart for you, not sure if it is what you are looking for...Venus is exalted in Pisces.
I lived in the northern hemisphere for twenty years. Returned to Australia in '96.

Thanks matrika, I might return to this chart later. But I think just in case that the relocation alters yourexperiences, I might just put this one to one side for the moment. Ideally I'd like a chart of someone who wasborn in the southern hemisphere and lived there all their life.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #22 - on: 03.05.2012 at 12:15 [UT+1] »Quote from Phoebe on 03.05.2012 at 06:21 [UT+1]:
Here's another antipodean chart.

Thanks for these!
Can you just tell me if the person in question lived in the southern hemisphere all their lives?
Just in case relocation causes differences in the behaviour of the planets.

Quote:
Quote:
Ptolemy’s reform was part of his striving to make astrology conform to the science of his time by anchoring it firmly toseasonal changes and the fourfold qualities of hot, cold, moist and dry. In so doing, he formulated definitions which are infact applicable only to the northern hemisphere and thereby make astrology less universal. The Sun’s passage throughCancer and Leo may mark the hottest season of the year around the Mediterranean, but this is simultaneously the coldest
season in New Zealand; and in areas close to the equator, there are no seasons at all in Ptolemy’s sense
http://www.martingansten.com/ts.php

Sidereal astrologers probably disagree with Ptolemy's rationale for the assignation of domicile dignity. Martin
Gansten is a sidereal astrologer. Unfortunately we do not have any sidereally defined rationale for domicile
dignity.
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #23 - on: 03.05.2012 at 12:46 [UT+1] »just like to add something that may shed light on the politics of language.
"crisis" in English can be seen as something to be avoided at all cost and steps taken beforehand to prevent
such happenings, where as in china, this word is created by using two strokes of the brush, one meaning
danger and the other meaning opportunity.
as with Greek or Roman language symbology and the meanings of such can be different depending upon theculture one finds oneself contained within.

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MariaMGF
Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #24 - on: 03.05.2012 at 16:58 [UT+1] »Hi Paul, thank you for the clarification, and I agree with your general reasoning. Many astrologers have come tothe point of questioning astrology in the southern hemisphere but I believe we are seeing the picture in micro
vision. The planets are just there doing there own thing and do not care much for hemispheres, they are telling
there own story and reflecting it down through the earths aether to us mere mortals. House systems do not
use any hemisphere bias and geocentric charts are related to the centre of the earth so no bias there either.
Yes the seasons are reversed down under but that is just incidental, I believe it has no impact on astrology as
related to the centre of the earth. In terms of ruler-ship exaltations etc they are just favoured placed of theplanets no matter what hemisphere we look from, Capricorn is still Capricorn down under and my conclusion is
the same that most astrologers come to, the earth is viewed from the stars as a whole.
Thank you again for your answer, and good luck in you quest
Maria
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #25 - on: 03.05.2012 at 17:17 [UT+1] »Quote from MariaMGF on 03.05.2012 at 16:58 [UT+1]:
Hi Paul, thank you for the clarification, and I agree with your general reasoning. Many astrologers have come to the point of questioning
astrology in the southern hemisphere but I believe we are seeing the picture in micro vision. The planets are just there doing there own
thing and do not care much for hemispheres, they are telling there own story and reflecting it down through the earths aether to us mere
mortals. House systems do not use any hemisphere bias and geocentric charts are related to the centre of the earth so no bias there
either.
Yes the seasons are reversed down under but that is just incidental, I believe it has no impact on astrology as related to the centre of theearth. In terms of ruler-ship exaltations etc they are just favoured placed of the planets no matter what hemisphere we look from,
Capricorn is still Capricorn down under and my conclusion is the same that most astrologers come to, the earth is viewed from the stars asa whole.
Thank you again for your answer, and good luck in you quest
Maria

Right, Cancer is still Cancer, and Mars is still Mars. But Mars is affected when it is in a sign. How comfortable it
is in that sign gives way to whether it is strong or weak there. That's the premise of essential dignities. So Marsis very comfortable in Capricorn so it is exalted there. But it's possible that, like with how domicile dignity was
assigned, all the dignities are dependant upon the seasons. If that's the case, then Mars might be more athome in Cancer down in Sydney than he is in London.
The important thing to keep crystal clear in your mind is that rulership is based, apparently, because of
SEASONS. Not because 'it just is'.
Mars rules Aries because of a seasonal reality - a seasonal reality for the northern hemisphere only. Hence itthrows wide up the question about whether that reality should work for places with totally reversed seasons.
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MariaMGF
Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #26 - on: 03.05.2012 at 17:28 [UT+1] »Quote:The important thing to keep crystal clear in your mind is that rulership is based, apparently, because of SEASONS. Not because 'it just is'

I disagree with this completely, rulership and exaltation were NOT based upon the seasons, the babylonians has
their 'bit nisirti' the secret places of the the planets and the Greeks seemed to borrow this when schematizing
the exaltations when incorporating their Thema Mundi. This is the hypothetical chart of the cosmos and shows
clearly how they assigned rulership and exaltation. The only parts that have not been properly explained about
the Thema Mundi are the boundaries of the planets (terms/confines) and the Egyptian Decans which relate
directly to the constellations in the decannic belt. I would be interested to read where you got the informationthat rulership and exaltation etc came about by seasons.
Thank you
Maria
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #27 - on: 03.05.2012 at 18:37 [UT+1] »I wrote an article in 2010 about astrology in the Southern Hemisphere which I presented to the Los Angeles
NCGR and contains several "reversed" charts of Australian, South African and South American celebrities,
available here:
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/alchemy/astrology/bipolarzodiac.html
The idea of reversing the Zodiac in the Southern Hemisphere was originally suggested by Dane Rudhyar, but
Posts: 2454

ran into some obvious problems about what happens at the Equator, so I have adapted his idea into what I calla "Bipolar" Dual or Mirror Zodiac which is graded according to latitude. I had to erect the charts "by hand" in
Windows Paint, reversing each sign by cutting and pasting, as there is yet no computer program that I know ofwhich does this.
It is a revolutionary idea, rather overdue IMO, which would call for new dual rulerships of the houses. It is how
I imagine Ptolemy might have thought if he had been born in Australia!
I'm not sure whether the theory would effect the dignities of the planets though. Mars would still be exalted in
Capricorn, for example, even though a person might show this planet in the sign "Cancercorn", meaning thatthey have 70% Capricorn and 30% Cancer in a certain house at their latitude.
Barbara/Teapot

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #28 - on: 03.05.2012 at 18:40 [UT+1] »Quote from MariaMGF on 03.05.2012 at 17:28 [UT+1]:
Quote:The important thing to keep crystal clear in your mind is that rulership is based, apparently, because of SEASONS. Not
because 'it just is'

I disagree with this completely, rulership and exaltation were NOT based upon the seasons, the babylonians has their 'bit nisirti' the secretplaces of the the planets and the Greeks seemed to borrow this when schematizing the exaltations when incorporating their Thema Mundi.
This is the hypothetical chart of the cosmos and shows clearly how they assigned rulership and exaltation. The only parts that have notbeen properly explained about the Thema Mundi are the boundaries of the planets (terms/confines) and the Egyptian Decans which relate
directly to the constellations in the decannic belt. I would be interested to read where you got the information that rulership and exaltation
etc came about by seasons.

Hi Maria
First I'd like to give my sources as you request them of me. For domicile rulership I refer primarily to Ptolemy.
For exaltations I refer mainly to Porphyry.
Now regarding exaltations, I'd like to stress that NOBODY knows exactly where exaltations come from but I'm
not examining an exhaustive history of dignities here, merely presenting the commonly accepted consensus.
Hence why the question is still a question, I'm not saying that rulership is definitely based upon seasons, orthat exaltations are, merely that they appear to be.
You mention the 'hidden places' of babylonian astrology. Unfortunately there a lot of problems with this theory.
The bit nisirti appear to be a little bit different to the hypsoma, or exaltations of the hellenistic greeks.
Rather than get into this I'll jsut link you to what Chris Brennan says on the matter:
http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/11/16/the-questionable-origins-of-the-ex altations-inastrology/
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MariaMGF

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #29 - on: 03.05.2012 at 20:02 [UT+1] »I know what Chris says very well, but the Greeks were absorbing the astrology of what was around them andthen schematising it, the 'bit nisirti' are too close to the exaltation degrees for it to be coincidence.
I think trying to make the exaltations reverse in the southern hemisphere is ridiculous so I will just politely bow
out of this conversation and leave it for those who do think this thinking has substance. Thank you for sharing
your and Chris's answers with me.
Maria
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #30 - on: 03.05.2012 at 20:23 [UT+1] »Quote from MariaMGF on 03.05.2012 at 20:02 [UT+1]:
I think trying to make the exaltations reverse in the southern hemisphere is ridiculous so I will just politely bow out of this conversationand leave it for those who do think this thinking has substance. Thank you for sharing your and Chris's answers with me.
Maria

Hi Maria
I've not concluded that yet. I've only put it forward as a theory.
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Matrika Matters

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #31 - on: 04.05.2012 at 01:16 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from Matrika on 03.05.2012 at 00:20 [UT+1]:
Here's an antipodean chart for you, not sure if it is what you are looking for...Venus is exalted in Pisces.
I lived in the northern hemisphere for twenty years. Returned to Australia in '96.

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Thanks matrika, I might return to this chart later. But I think just in case that the relocation alters your experiences, I might just put this
one to one side for the moment. Ideally I'd like a chart of someone who was born in the southern hemisphere and lived there all their life.

You are welcome Paul.
Relocation did alter my experience a whole lot. Life was incredibly abundant for most of my northernhemisphere sojourn. Not so in the antipodes. I was far more successful the other side of the equator andincredibly lucky.
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #32 - on: 04.05.2012 at 04:44 [UT+1] »Quote:
author=_Paul_
Thanks for these!
Can you just tell me if the person in question lived in the southern hemisphere all their lives?
Just in case relocation causes differences in the behaviour of the planets.

Both people have not spent time in the northern hemisphere at all. Not even on holidays.
Quote:
Sidereal astrologers probably disagree with Ptolemy's rationale for the assignation of domicile dignity. Martin Gansten is a sidereal
astrologer. Unfortunately we do not have any sidereally defined rationale for domicile dignity.

Is he? I was under the misconception that the 'traditional astrology' banner referred to tropical astrology.
Teapot!!! Gosh, what a surprise - I popped a link to your article in one of my earlier posts.
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Apostrophe

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #33 - on: 04.05.2012 at 06:18 [UT+1] »I just saw your post Phoebe, which I missed when skimming through this thread earlier.
I always thought that dignities were derived from an inner "esoteric" astrology, which mirrored the external
world of the seasons, as Man, the "Microcosm" mirrors God/The Universe/The "Macrocosm". So, theBabylonians, Egyptians and Jews had a system which eventually condensed into kabala, where the laws of mindor spiritual psychology mirrored their theory of how the universe was created.

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So the Sun is exalted in Aries not only because externally, the Sun has most power at the beginning of Spring,melting the snows and causing plants to burst up through the soil towards the light, but because internally, theChrist consciousness or image-making function represented by the Sun is most powerful in the human eyes andpart of the brain controlling vision, ruled by Aries. A similar inner to outer mirroring would occur with the otherexaltations such as the Moon (subconsciousness) in Taurus (intuition).
As I mention in my article, it's difficult to judge charts, let alone try to derive a new theory of astrology fromlooking at charts alone, because of Confirmation Bias - we will tend to pick out correlations which support our apriori beliefs. So although I like Paul's idea of looking at dignities in the Southern Hemisphere to see if they"fit" what we believe about astrology, or whether there is something "not quite right", this doesn't really provemuch. Ideally, we should have some sort of hard, empirical, scientific evidence to back up ideas, and so far we
do have the beginnings of empirical research with Seasonal Biology by Douglas McMahon (please see the link in
the article above), even though it's only on mice, and in a lab.
From a sort of spiritual/ reincarnation/karmic perspective (which I usually try to stay well clear of), I supposethat people are born where they are supposed to be born, whether there is a bipolar/dual Zodiac with wellfitting/misplaced dignities or not.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #34 - on: 04.05.2012 at 13:40 [UT+1] »Paul I have over 30 antipodean charts. It's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure what sort of examples yourlooking for, my knowledge of essential dignities is not that great.
This might be a good example chart though, I know this person very well and she's always lived in Australia.
Exalted Moon and Jupiter, and Mercury in detriment. Her life has been pretty blessed on the whole actually.
Her Moon rules the 3rd house, she is the youngest of 6 children, a very vibrant and close family, she enjoys
good relationships with all of her siblings, on the whole. Her job is in the health sector, aged care, and sheteaches systems and procedures to health professionals. She is passionate about good care for old people, andis a great communicator. Travels extensively for work too, within Australia.
I always think of her angular exalted Moon, because she is so well loved, and cares for so many people.
So, hmm. What do you think? Or what would you have expected to see here?
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #35 - on: 08.05.2012 at 10:17 [UT+1] »Here's mine. Mars and venus are in domicile, sun is exalted, moon is in fall. I've lived in the same country all
my life.
I'd have to say the traditional dignities as they pertain to my chart seem pretty much spot on, althoughseasonal explanations naturally don't make any sense to me.

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Somers69
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #36 - on: 08.05.2012 at 11:55 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 03.05.2012 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from Matrika on 03.05.2012 at 00:20 [UT+1]:
Here's an antipodean chart for you, not sure if it is what you are looking for...Venus is exalted in Pisces.
I lived in the northern hemisphere for twenty years. Returned to Australia in '96.

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Gender:Thanks matrika, I might return to this chart later. But I think just in case that the relocation alters your experiences, I might just put this
one to one side for the moment. Ideally I'd like a chart of someone who was born in the southern hemisphere and lived there all their life.

That rules me out then! I'm in the same boat as Matrika and lived in the NH for 12 years. One thing I did notice
was transiting Jupiter was crossing my ASC with my move abroad and then again when I moved back to mybirth place!
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Alice Portman

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #37 - on: 10.05.2012 at 02:53 [UT+1] »Quote from MariaMGF on 03.05.2012 at 16:58 [UT+1]:
Hi Paul, thank you for the clarification, and I agree with your general reasoning. Many astrologers have come to the point of questioning
astrology in the southern hemisphere but I believe we are seeing the picture in micro vision. The planets are just there doing there own
thing and do not care much for hemispheres, they are telling there own story and reflecting it down through the earths aether to us mere

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Gender:mortals. House systems do not use any hemisphere bias and geocentric charts are related to the centre of the earth so no bias there
either.
Yes the seasons are reversed down under but that is just incidental, I believe it has no impact on astrology as related to the centre of theearth. In terms of ruler-ship exaltations etc they are just favoured placed of the planets no matter what hemisphere we look from,
Capricorn is still Capricorn down under and my conclusion is the same that most astrologers come to, the earth is viewed from the stars asa whole.
Thank you again for your answer, and good luck in you questMaria

Hi Maria and all
As a professional Southern Hemisphere Astrologer for the past 40+ years I totally agree with your firstparagraph, the planets and houses are just the same.
However, the signs, which are also just the same, manifest in quite different seasons in the Southern
Hemisphere and even along the equator. In my land Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces are very, very hot summer
and are naturally going to manifest in a warmer, freer way than they do in the mid to high latitudes of theNorthern Hemisphere, where it is very cold at that time of the year.
If the dignities, detriments, exaltations and falls are derived from the seasons, then they can't possibly be
accurate for Southern Hemisphere astrology. All the reading I have done suggests these are derived in this way
as those who arranged the astrology of the past were Northern Hemisphere astrologers who had no knowledgeof the Southern Hemipshere.
Therefore the systems of astrology that are based on dignities etc., are really a form of local astrology, notglobal astrology. They might be very accurate for those born in mid to high latitudes of the Northern
Hemisphere, but not accurate for other places in the globe.
There are plenty of forms of astrology that have a more global orientation so I use these in my work.
As to the theory of reversing the signs to fit the seasons in the Southern Hemiphere ... oh dear... talk about
Northern Hemisphere hubris! The signs are activated by the rotation of the Earth around the Sun, not by theseasons! Just ask any Southern Hemisphere astrologer if they think the signs act like the opposite sign in theirhemisphere, they will laugh you out of the room.
I have written about this on my website and interestingly it is the article that receives the most hits of allpractically every day: http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-andsouthern-hem isphere-astrology/
Alice
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MariaMGF
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #38 - on: 11.05.2012 at 12:18 [UT+1] »Hi Alice,
Quote:
I have written about this on my website and interestingly it is the article that receives the most hits of all practically every day:http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-and-southern-hem isphere-astrology/

Thank you for the link and an interesting article, you raise some interesting points, especially regarding thenodes. I agree that there does need to be some re-thinking regarding the southern hemisphere.
Thank you again
Maria
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Apostrophe

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #39 - on: 11.05.2012 at 19:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Alice McDermott on 10.05.2012 at 02:53 [UT+1]:

If the dignities, detriments, exaltations and falls are derived from the seasons, then they can't possibly be accurate for Southern
Hemisphere astrology.

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Why not? The Southern Hemisphere has seasons too and Mars in Capricorn would be just as valid in the Southas it is in the North. The problem, of course is deciding whether Mars really is in a single "sign" - which is reallysimply a division of the 360 degree Zodiac into 12 equal sections, or whether it is OK to label this sign
something more fitting for the seasonal events at that location, and therefore, by occult/esoteric lore, to theinner spiritual and psychological energies of the "microcosm"/Man corresponding to the outer"macrocosm"/physical world. As mentioned earlier, if a person is karmically due to have Mars in Capricorn, (orany other dignity) they will be born at a physical location where this is fulfilled, IMO, whatever Hemisphere that
happens to be.
Quote:All the reading I have done suggests these are derived in this way as those who arranged the astrology of the past were Northern
Hemisphere astrologers who had no knowledge of the Southern Hemisphere.

Yes, and I think we have to wonder what they would have done if they had known about the Southern
Hemisphere.
Quote:
Therefore the systems of astrology that are based on dignities etc., are really a form of local astrology, not global astrology. They might
be very accurate for those born in mid to high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, but not accurate for other places in the globe.

This is the reason, IMO, that a "bipolar" zodiac would be so useful. It is a way of satisfactorily reversing thelabeling of the sections of the Zodiac depending on latitude, which would also produce a sort of no-man's landaround the Equator, where weighting of opposite labels would be equal, correlating to blurred distinction ofseasons there.
Quote:As to the theory of reversing the signs to fit the seasons in the Southern Hemisphere ... oh dear... talk about Northern Hemisphere hubris!
The signs are activated by the rotation of the Earth around the Sun, not by the seasons! Just ask any Southern Hemisphere astrologer ifthey think the signs act like the opposite sign in their hemisphere, they will laugh you out of the room.

But the rotation of the Earth around the Sun is what produces the seasons (please see diagram below).
Perhaps it would be better to examine the idea more rationally, providing as much empirical evidence as we
can.
Quote:
I have written about this on my website and interestingly it is the article that receives the most hits of all practically every day:http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-difference-between-northern-and-southern-hem isphere-astrology/ AliceI have found your website to be a wealth of very interesting information about astrology Alice, but do have aproblem with one important idea. I'm sorry if what follows is a repeat of debates we've had before on thisforum, but for the benefit of anyone who is new to the problem, I'd like to explain why I take issue with
Alice's explanation of the Sun being "in" Aries to Virgo when its apparent motion is in the Northern Hemisphereand "in" Libra to Pisces when it is apparently traveling in the Southern Hemisphere (please see Alice's website
for the diagram of this apparent motion).
When the Sun seems to cross the Equator at what we call the "Autumn Equinox" in the North, it actually goes
into a section of the sky we call Libra from a Northern perspective, because in the North, this was the time thatancient farmers weighed their harvest in the autumn and sold it for a fair price. They chose to mark this time ofyear on the great calendar of the sky, because the constellation against which the Sun appeared as a backdrop
looked like a balance. .
But if we view this constellation from the Southern Hemisphere, it looks nothing like a balance! It is upside
down, and a weighing balance would not work, let alone exist with the pans somehow hanging upwards. I knowthat the Tropical Zodiac does not line up with the constellations any more, but the principle still applies.
Also, the weather in the Southern Hemisphere during this supposed Libra time is getting warmer, during theSouthern Spring, not colder as in the North. Since the whole purpose of the Tropical Zodiac was to remove itfrom being tied to the constellations, i.e. it is a theoretical Zodiac, not a physical one, it seems to me that it
would not be problem to remove this Zodiac even further from the physical world, adapting into a "whole world
Zodiac" rather than one biased towards the Northern Hemisphere.
So as MariaMGF says, there does need to be some rethinking about the problem, and I've noticed a lot of otherwebsites about the Northern-Southern Hemisphere Astrology debate springing up over the past few years. It'sa problem that has been around since Dane Rudhyar and Marc Edmund Jones first toyed with it, and also writer
Tim Lyons in American Astrology magazine in the 1990s, from which I first got the idea of a dual sign/bipolar
theory.
seasons diagram from http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/time/seasons.html

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Ethereal

Re: Antipodean Dignities

Mountain« Reply #40 - on: 12.05.2012 at 02:06 [UT+1] »MemberWell, good one Paul. I of course have plenty of antipodean charts! Let's start with this one, now here's a person
who has Venus exalted, which rules the asc, Saturn dignified, which is conjunct the sun, and Mars in fall. I thinkwith this person you clearly get the sense of Venus exalted, but I think the Mars in fall is obscured in such ameasured, mature person. But this person is certainly not a pushy one. Also Jupiter detrriment, I don't know
about that one, it's also part of a stellium.

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Ethereal Mountain

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #41 - on: 12.05.2012 at 02:10 [UT+1] »Here's mine, can't comment much about that. Jupiter dignified (ruling the asc), Mars dignified, but they're in
the 12th. Please comment on what you would expect from these placements and I'll answer you if they workthat way or not. (And please don't dodge the 12th issue by using whole signs?)
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Ethereal

Re: Antipodean Dignities

Mountain« Reply #42 - on: 12.05.2012 at 02:27 [UT+1] »MemberAs to the southern vs northern hemisphere astrology debate, I think this is a non-issue. I see the seasonal
overlay as just that, something that has been added on because of the local view of the people who made thesystem. But the system happens to work on a global scale, there is no need for any great attachment toseasonal references. Clearly it's hard for the NH people to drop that, but when you live "down here" it's easy to

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Gender:do, and especially when you see that the system does work. I don't get the need for a bipolar zodiac, orreversals. Why? It works how it is, just as it does for you up there. There is nothing weird about the southernhemisphere, this globe is the same all over, it spins every day, and people are the same all over. Read ancienthistory and you'll see that. Not only do we all act the same now, we always did apparently.

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Moirae

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #43 - on: 12.05.2012 at 06:13 [UT+1] »Great thoughts EM, as I haven't been sure what to make of this seeming abstraction. I've been thinking
about it for over a year now, particularly since so many of my astro-peeps are in OZ. The voice of Ed Falis
always smacks me in the mind in topics like this ... astrology is an abstraction of our geocentric experience.
Take it or leave it.
Well you know, I love my structure ... but I keep an open mind about certain questions, and this has been oneof them.
You certainly know I have to translate the seasons whenever we discuss the simplest of life's matters, nevermind astrological ones.
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Gender:So, in your experience (and I know you have the charts to consider this by) a Capricorn is a Capricorn, by thebooks as it were, whether Northern or Southern hemisphere ? Certainly you and I have never had troubleinterpreting a chart from our distinctly hemispheric chairs.
~~~
Paul, great question. Thanks for sending it up.
Moira

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Apostrophe
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #44 - on: 12.05.2012 at 18:01 [UT+1] »To be honest I hadn't looked at the planetary dignities in the example charts used in my arguments for a
Bipolar Zodiac, but when I went back to look at them yesterday I did find some interesting placements. I thinkthat looking at celebrity charts gives us all a much better base from which to make judgements than looking at
personal charts whose natives are only known to the astrologer ( like in Ethereal Mountain's example above).
Even still, it's impossible to eliminate subjective bias, even with celebrities, so please take this with as muchobjectivity as possible.

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The examples of Southern Hemisphere natives that I used were Eva Peron, Nelson Mandela, J.R.R. Tolkien,
Julian Assange, Germaine Greer and Richard Dawkins (born on the Equator and therefore equally balanced in
the dual/bipolar Zodiac).
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/alchemy/astrology/bipolarzodiac.html#examples
and this is how their dignities fare in both versions of their chart. Please remember that in the Bipolar Zodiac,
one's Sun sign and other planetary placements are not either /or one sign or it's opposite, but a weighting
within a dual sign, such as Aries-Libra (Ariba) or Taurus-Scorpio (Taurio) etc.
The main reason I give for weighting Eva Peron towards Scorpio rather than Taurus in the dual sign Taurio, isthat she was known to be secretive in life and death, even being buried in a secret grave, was sexually assulted
as young girl, died of uterine cancer and lives on after death in a song and play about her "Evita". In thisSouthern Hemisphere chart,
In her Northern Chart, Neptune is exalted (according to some astrologers) in Leo, but in her Southern Chart,
Mars becomes dignified as ruler of Scorpio, Saturn as co-ruler of Aquarius and Pluto as possible exaltation in
Capricorn.
The man argument I use for favoring Nelson Mandela's reversed chart is that a Capricorn weighted Sun in the
bipolar sign of Cancercorn, is very symbolic of his huge, world-wide political achievement helping to break downapartheid, or the separation of people according to skin color, which is an outside appearance rather than an
inner truth about humanity (the Devil key in tarot).
In Mandela's Northern chart, Uranus co-rules Aquarius and Neptune is possibly exalted in Leo, whereas in his
Southern chart, Mars becomes ruler of leadership sign Aries, in the 11th house of social justice, his Moon isexalted in Taurus in the 12th house of prisons and isolation, correlating to his great endurance during his 27
years in prison, and Pluto is (possibly) exalted in Capricorn.
I thought J.R.R. Tolkien's Southern weighted chart was a good example of his popularity with children due to
his Cancer-weighted Sun, rather than Capricorn weighted in the North. But his Northern Chart seems to fit
rather better than is Southern one here as far as dignities; Saturn is exalted in Libra, Mars rules Scorpio as well
as Uranus being exalted there, and Jupter the old ruler of Pisces. In this Southern weighted chart, the only
possible dignity would be Chiron, some astrologers believing that it is the new ruler of Aquarius. I can only
theorize that the Northern Chart seems a better fit because although born in S. Africa, Tolkien spent most of
his life in England.
Julian Assange's chart is slightly more dignified in the South, having the Moon in Taurus, and Richard
Dawkins seems to have interesting dignities in both versions. His Northern Sun is exalted in Aries, and Mars is
exalted in Capricorn, but his Southern Neptune is dignified as ruler of Pisces, and his Uranus in exalted in
Scorpio.
As to the argument that we are one earth spinning in space with both hemisphere's"receiving the same cosmic"influences", that would presume that astrology is actually caused by some sort of physical mechanism fromstars - thousands, if not millions light years away from earth. I see astrology as working more from a symbolic
point of view, with the stars and planets only being markers in space-time. The real mechanism being light (andbecause E=mc2, light is intimately related to gravity, which in turn is a by-product of space-time) from ourSun.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #45 - on: 13.05.2012 at 03:37 [UT+1] »Right Moira, I think that a Capricorn is a Capricorn.
I still think Louise said it best, right at the start of the thread
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Gender:Quote from ~ Louise ~ on 02.05.2012 at 17:36 [UT+1]:
This sounds like it's going to be an interesting thread _Paul_
Just a question though ............. and i'm probably missing the obvious BUT what is the significance of the southernhemisphere climates and the chart?
And also what are antipodean charts?

I think this shows the way a lot of people might react - why should it matter?
Teapot, your theory is interesting - but I know I for one, am not a Cancerian. No matter how maternal I mightbe, but then I do have moon in the 10th. No, Capricorn is definitely my Sun sign, and definitely Sagittarius
rising, lol. My moon could not be Aries by any stretch of the imagination.
I also think that if astrology works from a symbolic point of view (which is incidentally my own view, I do notbelieve in cosmic rays or somesuch, I take more of an 'as above, so below' view)...then it's even more the casethat hemisphere, location on earth, is of no importance. I'm not even sure that light matters. As far as I'mconcerned we're dealing with something more abstract. Time to get back under the blankets on this freezing
Taurus day...
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Alice Portman
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #46 - on: 13.05.2012 at 03:49 [UT+1] »Teapot I think I had better try to clarify further how I see the zodiac signs.

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Gender:As I mentioned on my website, I perceive the zodiac signs as a mapping of the energy field of the Earth - theEarth's aura. As the Earth moves around the Sun the energy of our Sun, the center of our Solar System,
activates this energy field. The path of that rotation is called the ecliptic.
Before astrologers understood that we were part of a Solar System and the Sun was the center of the Solar
System they thought that the ecliptic was where the zodiac 'resided' and that the ecliptic was divided into 12
30 degree segments; unfortunately this error is still taught today. It is the Earth's energy field that is divided
into 12 30 degree segments called Aries, Taurus etc. The Sun activates the Northern Hemisphere of this energy
field whilst it shines through Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo and activates the Southern Hemispherewhen it shines through Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces.
For this reason early astrologers, who didn't know anything about the Southern Hemisphere (and manythought the Earth was flat) aligned these signs of the zodiac with the seasons and climate of their location andfrom that we get the consistent mixing up of two different things, seasons and signs of the zodiac, which isrife throughout Northern Hemisphere astrologers. Further, we get the very elegant concept which you havepresented in an attempt to align seasons with signs of the zodiac in the Southern Hemipshere - but can't you
see that this is a purely Northern Hemisphere concept? A few Southern Hemisphere astrologers have told youthat the signs of the zodiac are the same in our part of the world, and we should know! I have attempted toillustrate this with the diagrams on my website but seem to have failed.
Alice

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Ethereal Mountain

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #47 - on: 13.05.2012 at 04:12 [UT+1] »Yes Alice, well said - and add to that, the fact that the seasons in this part of the world act quite differently tosay, northern Europe, or the northern parts of the US. I find it interesting too, that the seasons of thePosts: 1039
Gender:Babylonians and then even the Greeks, would also be quite different to northern Europe, England, for example.
So the developers of the "art" had quite a different concept to what is assumed now in most of the northernhemisphere. I find it strange anywhere that people would assume their climate to be the point of comparisonand "the norm". Climate changes radically all over the globe. Most of Australia doesn't even have what northern
Europeans and people in northern US would call "winter", it just has 9 months of stinking hot and 3 months ofmild. Other parts of Australia are tropical and just have a wet and a dry season, stinking hot all the time. So asystem based on 4 seasons makes little sense, whether you reverse it or not.
Interesting your idea of earth's energy field.

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Apostrophe
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #48 - on: 13.05.2012 at 06:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Alice McDermott on 13.05.2012 at 03:49 [UT+1]:
Teapot I think I had better try to clarify further how I see the zodiac signs.
As I mentioned on my website, I perceive the zodiac signs as a mapping of the energy field of the Earth - the Earth's aura.

But you admit yourself that the Zodiac signs got their names from Northern astrologers.
The signs (originally constellations) were named after seasonal events in the North, like Rams breaking up the
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ice in April, Oxen ploughing fields in May and merchants weighing the harvest in October.
So how can this Northern derived labelling system apply to the energy field of the whole earth?
Quote:As the Earth moves around the Sun the energy of our Sun, the center of our Solar System, activates this energy field. The path of thatrotation is called the ecliptic.

OK.
Quote:
Before astrologers understood that we were part of a Solar System and the Sun was the center of the Solar System they thought that theecliptic was where the zodiac 'resided' and that the ecliptic was divided into 12 30 degree segments; unfortunately this error is still taught
today. It is the Earth's energy field that is divided into 12 30 degree segments called Aries, Taurus etc.

OK, I have no problem with an energy field, or aura being activated. The problem, as mentioned above, is thatthe labelling of this energy field is biased towards a Northern perspective.
Quote:The Sun activates the Northern Hemisphere of this energy field whilst it shines through Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo andactivates the Southern Hemisphere when it shines through Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces.

No, - and this seems to be where we disagree. The Sun activates the Northern Hemisphere of this energy field
whilst it shines through the sign of the Northern Vernal Equinox, which Northern astrologers called Aries,
because Rams broke up the ice at this time. It also activates the Northern Hemisphere of this energy field whilst
it shines through the signs which Northern astrologers associated with ploughing, couples flirting in the spring
and the Sun seeming to "stop" at the Northern Hemisphere summer solstice and seem to turn around like acrab, so they called this sign Cancer. The signs or "auric energy field" does not have intrinsic energy of its own,
IMO. The names of the signs are just labels. The Sun also shone through the Northern Hemisphere of thisenergy field in the signs that Northern astrologers called Leo and Virgo, because of the Sun's great strength likea lion in August and the reaping of the crops, winnowing, separating what from chaff etc in September.
But when the Sun is activating the Southern Hemisphere, it is shining through a sign which had been given thelabel Libra by people in the North, because of seasonal activities in the North at that time of year. Same logic
for Scorpio through Pisces while in the Southern Hemisphere energy field. Similarly, whether we call it theecliptic, or "earth's energy field", it doesn't matter. It has no intrinsic energy of its own. The energy comes fromlight from our Sun, which in combination with the earth's tilt produces the seasons, and the seasons are where
the Zodiac sign names came from.
Quote:For this reason early astrologers, who didn't know anything about the Southern Hemisphere (and many thought the Earth was flat) aligned
these signs of the zodiac with the seasons and climate of their location and from that we get the consistent mixing up of two different
things, seasons and signs of the zodiac, which is rife throughout Northern Hemisphere astrologers.

Alice - it sounds to me that you think it's a problem that astrologers associate the signs of the zodiac with thecycle of seasons. But wasn't that precisely why Ptolemy formulated the Tropical Zodiac in the first place?
Paraphrasing him here, he thought that people born at the Vernal Equinox would have that same quality ofstarting afresh and new that the Sun and nature have in Spring. And he does not say "spring in the Northern
Hemisphere" - he simply says "spring", which implies, IMO, that his theory was meant to be universal, notlimited to just one of earth's hemispheres.
Quote:
Further, we get the very elegant concept which you have presented in an attempt to align seasons with signs of the zodiac in the Southern
Hemipshere - but can't you see that this is a purely Northern Hemisphere concept?

No, it is NOT a purely Northern Hemisphere concept. As mentioned above, spring is spring, and autumn isautumn/fall which ever hemisphere we live in.
Quote:
A few Southern Hemisphere astrologers have told you that the signs of the zodiac are the same in our part of the world, and we should
know!

There is no way to prove you or I right or wrong. It's all based on subjectivity.

Quote:I have attempted to illustrate this with the diagrams on my website but seem to have failed.
AliceNo, you have not failed. The diagrams are very useful in pin-pointing exactly where the logic of a Northernlabelled system breaks down
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Ethereal Mountain

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #49 - on: 13.05.2012 at 06:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Teapot on 13.05.2012 at 06:01 [UT+1]:

No, it is NOT a purely Northern Hemisphere concept. As mentioned above, spring is spring, and autumn is autumn/fall which everhemisphere we live in.

Posts: 1039
Gender:Really? What exactly does autumn/fall mean, in a place that has no deciduous trees? What does winter mean ina place that never snows or reaches freezing point? What exactly do either of these seasons mean in a tropical,
or even subtropical place? I'll tell you, they're effectively meaningless terms. Those places have a wet season
and a dry season. The temperature is more or less the same all year round and doesn't even go down muchover night. What the hell ice were rams breaking up in Greece or Babylon?
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MaryD
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #50 - on: 13.05.2012 at 07:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 13.05.2012 at 06:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Teapot on 13.05.2012 at 06:01 [UT+1]:

No, it is NOT a purely Northern Hemisphere concept. As mentioned above, spring is spring, and autumn is autumn/fallwhich ever hemisphere we live in.

Really? What exactly does autumn/fall mean, in a place that has no deciduous trees? What does winter mean in a place that never snowsor reaches freezing point? What exactly do either of these seasons mean in a tropical, or even subtropical place? I'll tell you, they're
effectively meaningless terms. Those places have a wet season and a dry season. The temperature is more or less the same all year roundPosts: 1258
Gender:and doesn't even go down much over night. What the hell ice were rams breaking up in Greece or Babylon?

I agree EM...where I live we don't experience the four seasons, more like 2, hot and mild..."winter" is average
22C during the day...hmm, not much brrrr happening here, and we don't have deciduous trees...oh how I do
miss those autumn colours

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Apostrophe

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #51 - on: 13.05.2012 at 08:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 13.05.2012 at 06:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Teapot on 13.05.2012 at 06:01 [UT+1]:
No, it is NOT a purely Northern Hemisphere concept. As mentioned above, spring is spring, and autumn is autumn/fallwhich ever hemisphere we live in.

Really? What exactly does autumn/fall mean, in a place that has no deciduous trees? What does winter mean in a place that never snowsor reaches freezing point? What exactly do either of these seasons mean in a tropical, or even subtropical place? I'll tell you, they'rePosts: 2454

effectively meaningless terms. Those places have a wet season and a dry season. The temperature is more or less the same all year roundand doesn't even go down much over night. What the hell ice were rams breaking up in Greece or Babylon?

These places (which I have been told Northern Australia is like) would be part of what Dane Rudhyar called theEquatorial Zone, and in the bipolar/dual Zodiac they would be weighted 50% each opposing sign. These are thelatitudes between the Tropics. This is perhaps why I have heard a lot of Australians from the north of thecountry say that they feel like their Northern polarity sign - because northern Australia is not that far southfrom the Equator, this zone would be weighted maybe 55% towards a Southern polarity and 45% towards theNorthern one.
We should also factor in the way a lot of us are conditioned to accept astrology by popular culture, "growing
into" our Sun sign and even our whole chart by the process of suggestion. This might sound far-fetched, but
surely you have heard the stories of people born on the cusp of two signs, for example Aries and Taurus. For
years they thought they were an Aries until a new ephemeris was published which made them a Taurus. I know
someone with exactly this story, showing that the power of suggestion is a very real psychological force.
It is similar to confirmation bias, and we have had many examples of it on this forum when discussing themerits of the Sidereal and Tropical Zodiacs. I see the Bipolar - Northern astrology debate similar to that. In
both cases I think we tend to pick evidence which backs up our particular philosophy and it's a good reason
why we need to back up any astrological theory with something more rational and logical.
For example, one way of backing up the theory that the stars do not directly "influence" us on earth, but rather
act as markers in a seasonal Zodiac, is the fact that some stars in the Northern constellations which circle thePole star, Polaris, cannot be seen by people in the Southern Hemisphere. Take Algol, for example, in theconstellation of Perseus. I presume that people in Australia still have Algol in their horoscopes, even though
whatever it might be emanating - light, gravity or some sort of electromagnetic radiation would not reachsouthern Australia. Doesn't this prove that the stars and bodies in a horoscope are merely symbolic?
Similarly, with the Northern - Bipolar debate, we should try to back up all the subjective cherry picking withsomething rational. I think that the recent scientific research into Seasonal Biology is a good start.
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Ethereal
Mountain

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #52 - on: 13.05.2012 at 09:19 [UT+1] »MemberIt's funny, you are talking about the equatorial type zone as needing a 50/50 weighting, but isn't that the typeof climate astrology has its roots in? Not in a zone with 4 strong seasons, that's for sure. Not in a zone which
froze over, thawed, and so on - but more one that was either hot or mild throughout the year. So that leads me

Posts: 1039
Gender:to think that the modern thinking about seasons is what has been superimposed on the system, rather thanneeding to adjust a seasonal-based system to incorporate equatorial zones. Is this four-seasonal thinking reallyinherent to astrology? That's my question, and I think that's what Paul is trying to research here. In thisequatorial zone where astrology was developed, presumably all the signs are seen passing in the sky one after
the other, and could be used to time the year amongst other things. But in both the northern and southernhemispheres, some signs are not seen at all. I think both hemispheres have their difficulty in incorporating theoriginal equatorial astrology, surely - why just the south?
As to power of suggestion - you can argue that all you like, but just try to find one person who would think mymoon sign would be better suited to be Aries. You won't find them I guarantee it. I grew up in a family full ofmoon in Aries people, and I know what they are like, and I know they are the same as their northerncounterparts too. How much more different could you get than Aries moon or Libra moon? I don't think there's
much confusion here.
Frankly, to me an astrological theory that relies heavily on the seasons sounds like one that heavily implies atheory of stellar influence. What is your theory of how astrology works? And why can't it still work without
reference to the seasons? After all, it doesn't matter, in the northern hemisphere whether a constellation canactually be seen for it to carry meaning and be charted - whether because it's daytime or because that sign
happens to be in the south at the time - so why should it matter in the south? If you're saying that we still use
algol and so on even though they can't be seen, and that's still valid - what need do we have to mess with thesigns then? Either it's abstract and theoretical, or it's not.

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Moirae

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #53 - on: 13.05.2012 at 12:23 [UT+1] »I have to say, as an NH astrologer sync'd to the correlation of signs to seasons, it's a brilliant exercise in
abstraction to think of them without this association ... which I've had to do because of my association with somany SH astrologers.
EM wrote:
Quote:
So that leads me to think that the modern thinking about seasons is what has been superimposed on the system, rather than needing toadjust a seasonal-based system to incorporate equatorial zones. Is this four-seasonal thinking really inherent to astrology?

Posts: 2570
Gender:My next coloring book question: The zodiac starts at Aries at the (fill in the blank) equinox. This represents
the time of year when the day and night lengths are equal; i.e. earth's relationship to the sun. This event reoccurs at the beginning of Libra. Ninety degrees/days in between we have the beginning of Capricorn (longest
nights) and Cancer (longest days). This is my NH experience. Does this apply globally ... at the equator, at thepoles of either hemisphere ? Certainly, the perpetual daylight experienced near the Northern poles begins at the
April equinox. Does this also apply to the Southern pole ? Are there shorter and longer days at the equator?
It would seem not. I should know this, but I don't. If, not ... how would the symbolism of Aries as the
beginning of the zodiac cycle apply? Not only would it not apply in a seasonal way, but neither in a day/darklight way.
This is all I really need to know to ensure my understanding of the zodiac is in not in some state of disarray.
Yes, astrology developed from areas much closer to the equator.
I believe Paul was inspired to start this thread based on discussions in the Ceres thread over that planet's
rulership/association to Virgo. (Call me out if I'm wrong here, Paul). What's happening at Virgo calendar-timein various latitudes ? Certainly not the same answers, depending on the latitude. Ceres has traditional
associations to planting/harvesting/dormancy/disaster cycles that seem represented by "the seasons". This
became a point of questionable debate in that thread.
So, kudos to the discussion here.
I will attest that it is entirely possible to extricate one-self from monthly/seasonal intellectual contexts. I've
been using the lunar cycles to define monthly cycles for a long time. The next month does not actually start on
the 1st for me. It starts at the New Moon. I have to keep a "normal" monthly calendar in order to operate in
the daily grind universe, but it's marked with astrological hieroglyphics as to what's "really" going on. I found acalendar that has week to week pages, in addition to the monthly page. This has been most useful as I track
necessary events on both time-lines.
BTW, EM ... I'm an Aries Moon. Does that make me feel like family to you ? Or are we just sisters who apply
from different hemispheres.

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PhoebeEx Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #54 - on: 13.05.2012 at 13:58 [UT+1] »I'm an Aries Moon too. Wonder if it was shearing season when I was born.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #55 - on: 13.05.2012 at 14:00 [UT+1] »haha you Aries moons are just very, very familiar to me
Great questions Moira. For me, I simply forget that Aries 'starts' the zodiac. For me there is no start and finish.
Posts: 1039
Gender:In different calendars, there are new years at different places, so clearly in different cultures they see the year
as starting at a different time. I think in places where the seasons are not so clear, it makes less sense to have astart to a year. Perhaps for people like the Babylonians though, it made sense to mark out different times likeplanting and harvest, time for rains and so on. In the SH we could start our year in Libra, spring flowers, but
for me personally I prefer no start. Apparently yes, the midnight sun starts in Libra in Antarctica, although noone lives there apart from scientists some of the time, and there is only sea between there and Australia or New
Zealand.
There is apparently very little change in day length at the actual equator, so again, even more so, the seasonal
thing just doesn't make much sense there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_length
Quote:
Some interesting facts are as follows:
On the Equator, the duration of daylight is not exactly 12 hours all the year round, but rather — due to atmospheric refraction and the sizeof the Sun — exceeds 12 hours by about 7 minutes each day;
Because the sun is north of the equator for almost 4 days more than half the year, due to the eccentricity of Earth's orbit, the duration of
the average day at a given latitude in the northern hemisphere exceeds the duration of the average day at the same latitude in thesouthern hemisphere by a few minutes;
During a few days around the equinoxes—about March 19–22 and September 21–24—both poles experience simultaneously 24 hours ofdaytime, due mainly to atmospheric refraction.
Each pole has only one sunrise and one sunset per year, around the time of the equinoxes. Each pole’s sunrise is nearly coincident with theother's sunset, with minor differences due mainly to atmospheric refraction.

As to Ceres, well Virgo comes in "spring" here, mostly a time for planting seeds (and planning what you want togrow from a judgement of what you are going to need). Further north, nearer the equator, of course you canplant and harvest at any time of the year, as long as you have enough water. I would have to look up whether
Virgo would typically come in a wet or dry period there.
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Ed Falis
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #56 - on: 13.05.2012 at 17:04 [UT+1] »Quote from Moirae on 12.05.2012 at 06:13 [UT+1]:
Great thoughts EM, as I haven't been sure what to make of this seeming abstraction. I've been thinking about it for over a year now,
particularly since so many of my astro-peeps are in OZ. The voice of Ed Falis always smacks me in the mind in topics like this ...
astrology is an abstraction of our geocentric experience. Take it or leave it....

Careful with them there paraphrases: "... an abstraction of our topocentric experience ...". After all, we doexperience from the pit of our bellies, our centers of gravity.
Specifically on this question, the relative motion of the sun and the person on earth (expressed in terms ofvelocity, gravitational and force vectors) dictate a central circle (ecliptic) to mark longitudes on, and a directionin which to count them. There's a natural 0 point 90 degrees behind the sun as measured along that circle
based on vector products. Nothing inherent about 0 Aries etc in the motions themselves. And this is just ageometrical model of what's going on, but note that it is completely independent of the hemisphere on which
one stands.
So, somewhere along the way, someone decided to set a 0 point at the descending node of the earth's equatoron the ecliptic circle, and dubbed it 0 Aries. Seems pretty arbitrary, except that meanings have layered
themselves on divisions based on that 0 point over the centuries. Or perhaps on divisions that happened tocoincide with that point at some particular time.
We walk on a manufactured, apparently frozen sand of abstraction. And, Holy Smokes! We can do usefulthings with it.
- Ed
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Apostrophe

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #57 - on: 13.05.2012 at 18:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 13.05.2012 at 09:19 [UT+1]:
It's funny, you are talking about the equatorial type zone as needing a 50/50 weighting, but isn't that the type of climate astrology has its
roots in?

I was tired and instead of saying that northern Australia was slightly below the Equator, I should have said that
it is slightly below the Southern Tropic. So in answer to your question...
Posts: 2454

No, astrology had its roots in areas around 30 degrees N latitude, which is a tad north of the Tropic of Cancer(which of course I prefer to call the "Northern Tropic" because this geographic labeling too takes its root fromthe astronomical/astrological views of people in the North; the constellation was named byastronomers/astrologers before the geographers borrowed the name) at 23.5 N. Babylon (present day Iraq) is
around 32N, Greece also 32N and Egypt around 30N.
It does sometimes snow in Greece in the winter and it can be cold in the deserts of the Middle East in winter,just like in the deserts of Southern California where I live, at 34N (Los Angeles). The allusion to "rams breaking
up the ice" for the reason people named the constellation Aries is also only one of several associations for Aries,
such as the power of plants pushing up through the soil in early Spring, or the virility of animals at this time,
protecting their territory and competing for mates, rather like two Rams butting their antlers together.
Brisbane, Australia however is only 29 S, which while still south of the Southern Tropic is nearer to theEquatorial Zone than Greece, Cairo, Alexandria or Babylon are!
Quote:
Not in a zone with 4 strong seasons, that's for sure. Not in a zone which froze over, thawed, and so on - but more one that was either hot
or mild throughout the year. So that leads me to think that the modern thinking about seasons is what has been superimposed on thesystem, rather than needing to adjust a seasonal-based system to incorporate equatorial zones. Is this four-seasonal thinking reallyinherent to astrology? That's my question, ...
What is your theory of how astrology works?

Although the seasons in astrology's founding countries were not and are not as distinct as they were/are in say
England or Germany, the seasons do exist, most noticeable in the subtle changes in the quality of sunlighthitting the earth due to the earth's tilt. For example, in L.A. where I live, the weather is definitely not as
pronounced as in England where I grew up, but nevertheless there are definite changes in the amount of
daylight throughout the year, which correspond directly to when plants grow. I think that gardening also
involves the Moon, which seems to have an effect on when seeds sprout, but I don't want to complicate thesubject of light from the Sun in this particular discussion.
I think the seasonal thinking is inherent to astrology and your later question of how it might work, because
IMO, it is all concerned with the quality of light. Light is the underlying power behind all the secondary effectsof the seasons such as temperature changes, rainfall, wind currents etc. The Sun truly is the power behind lifeon earth. I think that the Indian/Vedic astrologers were on the right track when they called their astrology"Jyotish", or the science (study) of light, even though I don't agree with their view that light comes from thestars has a causal effect on life on earth - I think it's the Sun which is most important.
As to how this sunlight makes someone with Saturn in Libra different from someone with Saturn in Scorpio, I
can only theorize that our Pineal Glands pick up these subtle differences in the quality of light, not only
throughout any year, but throughout the whole of space and time ever since life on earth first starting evolving.

In occult practice, the pineal gland can be cultured by meditation, which raises the kundalini or life force fromthe lower chakras. Apparently it actually changes structure, gaining receptivity to these subtle changes in light
due to the earth's tilt. Hence the emphasis on the angle of 23.5 degrees in the esoteric and occult schools suchas masonry and hermeticism.
Quote:As to power of suggestion - you can argue that all you like, but just try to find one person who would think my moon sign would be better
suited to be Aries. You won't find them I guarantee it. I grew up in a family full of moon in Aries people, and I know what they are like,and I know they are the same as their northern counterparts too. How much more different could you get than Aries moon or Libra moon?
I don't think there's much confusion here.

I can't argue with your subjective observations, but would like to mention that I've seen quite a few charts
containing oppositions where people have hard time distinguishing which personality trait is coming from which
end of the opposition. For example, someone might be a Libra, but have their Sun opposite Jupiter in Aries,
projecting a lot of that signs traits in public and masking their Libra qualities. (continued)
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #58 - on: 13.05.2012 at 18:46 [UT+1] »(continued) I know that when I started to present the idea of the Bipolar/Dual zodiac idea to NCGR there werepeople who were laughing at the idea. But by the end of the lecture, they were saying "hmm, this is actually avery neat concept". One lady from South Africa was very adamant that she could not possibly be a Capricorn
weighted person rather than a Cancer sign sign, because she had lifelong stomach complaints. But when I
looked at the aspects to her Moon, I saw that these could equally as well be correlated with the stomach.

Posts: 2454

As in the comparison of Tropical versus Sidereal, and various house systems, I have found that it is the aspects
in astrology which are most important. A good example of this, IMO is Germaine Greer, who has the Sun
opposite Pluto. Whichever system we use, one of them is in Aquarius and one of them is in Leo, but does itreally matter which one? IMO, it is the psychological dynamic between two opposite signs which is the real
power in a chart.
Similarly, the aspect might be a square or trine, but, IMO, this might be more important than the overlay ofsigns and houses.

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Ed Falis

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #59 - on: 13.05.2012 at 19:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Teapot on 13.05.2012 at 18:46 [UT+1]:
As in the comparison of Tropical versus Sidereal, and various house systems, I have found that it is the aspects in astrology which aremost important.

They're methods of different orders, and I tend to agree that structurally aspects are more fundamental. But
then look at all of the lore that has developed around the overlays based on setting a 0 point once you've
determined your meaningful measurement circle and how to measure along it.
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #60 - on: 14.05.2012 at 18:23 [UT+1] »Hello everyone,
I do think that there are some fundamental questions that we have to answer related to viewing the earth andits Tropical Zodiac as a holistic projection, rather than a Northern-biased one, before considering the dignities.

Quote from Moirae on 13.05.2012 at 12:23 [UT+1]:
Posts: 2454

I have to say, as an NH astrologer sync'd to the correlation of signs to seasons, it's a brilliant exercise in abstraction to think of themwithout this association ... which I've had to do because of my association with so many SH astrologers.

There is an Australian astrologer, Craig McIntosh who suggests that we should adapt the meaning of the signs
to the Southern Hemisphere without changing the familiar names or positions of those signs, so that theAutumn (in Australia) sign of Gemini is “ - A time to be given over to mental pursuits and the development ofideas as we move inside”, or the Spring (in Australia) sign of Scorpio becomes “ - The intense energy of the bud
bursting forth with the sexuality of Spring.”
If we do this however, we must be careful that we don't firstly "set" our Tropical symbolism to reflect Southern
Hemisphere seasons, and then analyze a horoscope using the traditional Northern Hemisphere seasonal
meanings.
Quote:My next coloring book question: The zodiac starts at Aries at the (fill in the blank) equinox. This represents the time of year when the
day and night lengths are equal; i.e. earth's relationship to the sun. This event re-occurs at the beginning of Libra. Ninety degrees/days in
between we have the beginning of Capricorn (longest nights) and Cancer (longest days). This is my NH experience. Does this apply
globally ... at the equator, at the poles of either hemisphere ? Certainly, the perpetual daylight experienced near the Northern poles begins
at the April equinox. Does this also apply to the Southern pole ? Are there shorter and longer days at the equator? It would seem not. I
should know this, but I don't. If, not ... how would the symbolism of Aries as the beginning of the zodiac cycle apply? Not only would it
not apply in a seasonal way, but neither in a day/dark light way.
This is all I really need to know to ensure my understanding of the zodiac is in not in some state of disarray.

Moirae: I'm posting my diagram of how I see a dual/bipolar/mirror Zodiac working (please see below) which I
hope will illustrate the questions you raise. It is really a "mirror" Zodiac superimposed on the diagram of Sun's
apparent path through the signs th at Alice has on her website, which has been the conventional explanation of
how the Tropical Zodiac works for the past few thousand years.
It is a revolutionary idea, birthed by Rudhyar and M.E. Jones, and I'm not surprised that so many people
instinctively resist it, let alone the challenges it would cause for the technical side of astrology, so I therefore
don't see it being incorporated any time soon, but rather astrologers either adapting the Northern Zodiac totheir own environments, as Alice does, and the example from Craig McIntosh above, or astrologers using acompletely different Zodiac from the Tropical one, like Australian astrologer Caroline Tully suggests at her
Earthsong website: http://www.faeryshaman.org/es53/es53arc1.htm with kangaroos and wallabies.

Quote:
I will attest that it is entirely possible to extricate one-self from monthly/seasonal intellectual contexts. I've been using the lunar cycles todefine monthly cycles for a long time. The next month does not actually start on the 1st for me. It starts at the New Moon. I have to keepa "normal" monthly calendar in order to operate in the daily grind universe, but it's marked with astrological hieroglyphics as to what's"really" going on. I found a calendar that has week to week pages, in addition to the monthly page. This has been most useful as I track
necessary events on both time-lines.

Yes, I'm sure it's possible to use a lunar Zodiac, in fact from what I understand, some of the early Zodiacs werebased on the 13 lunar months per year, and I think that Islam still uses these. It's also interesting to me thaton the kabalistic Tree Of Life, the path of the High Priestess who represents the Moon, or Subconsciousness ispath #13.
Quote:
from Ethereal Mountain Frankly, to me an astrological theory that relies heavily on the seasons sounds like one that heavily implies atheory of stellar influence....And why can't it still work without reference to the seasons? After all, it doesn't matter, in the northernhemisphere whether a constellation can actually be seen for it to carry meaning and be charted - whether because it's daytime or becausethat sign happens to be in the south at the time - so why should it matter in the south? If you're saying that we still use algol and so oneven though they can't be seen, and that's still valid - what need do we have to mess with the signs then? Either it's abstract andtheoretical, or it's not.

I think the "stellar influence" approach runs into several problems of just sheer distances for light to travel; theday time influence is not a big deal as of course stars could theoretically have an "effect"on us even when we
can't see them, but the main problem with a star-based system, IMO, is the Precession problem, as anyone
ignorant of Tropical astrology will tell us.

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Apostrophe

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #61 - on: 14.05.2012 at 23:52 [UT+1] »Also, Ethereal Mountain, my point about Algol was not so much that whatever it is supposed to emanate cantravel in other than straight lines to effect life in the Southern Hemisphere, but that the ancient astrologers, if
they had lived in the Southern Hemisphere would just not have seen it, and would therefore not have had it intheir astrological cookbook.
Whatever is associated with Algol, if it can be seen in Southern Hemisphere charts, must therefore be comingfrom its degree of longitude projected onto the ecliptic, around 26 Taurus. A good way to test if thePosts: 2454

Bipolar/Dual Zodiac works might be therefore to see if people have Algol correlations at 26 Taurus, or 26
Scorpio.

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Ethereal
Mountain

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #62 - on: 15.05.2012 at 00:06 [UT+1] »Member

But why this need to change the charted position? Where the body is in the sky, is where it is - no matter where
we are looking at it from. I know tropical astrology is earth-centered, but to me this is carrying it too far. I see
astrology as more abstract, and the charted positions as they are, are good enough for me. We make a map of
the sky at a given point, we chart our location through the ascendant and houses, and we take a meaning from
that. The system is already perfectly good. Our location is already implied, why the need to actually reverse thePosts: 1039
Gender:zodiac? Cancer was not overhead (even remotely) when I was born, but Capricorn was in full view. By sayingthat I'm not arguing for stellar influence, I'm just pointing out that if you disregard the fact that it happened tobe the middle of blazing summer, the astrology of it makes a hell of a lot more sense than reversing the signs
would.
Your theory also doesn't take into account the dignities, which is the topic of this thread. If you look at thefirst of the charts I posted - the person has Venus exalted in Pisces in the 10th. You are saying that especially ina case like that, with an opposition, it doesn't matter which way around the signs are. But if the Venus was inVirgo it would be in detriment. Yet this person had a successful career in the arts and performance. Is that what
you would expect from Venus in detriment? Now I don't usually worry overly about dignities, but I think thischart is a good strong example of them in action. If Paul would comment on these charts, we'd find out awhole lot more about how they should be working according to traditional methods and get his opinion onwhether or not it works in the southern hemisphere. But I have little doubt that he has just thrown his hands
up, completely given up, on finding his thread hijacked in favour of arguing someone's pet theory on the zodiac
in the southern hemisphere in general.

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Moirae

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #63 - on: 15.05.2012 at 00:09 [UT+1] »Moon's still in Pisces, so bear with me here as I think with the deep-purple crayon.
Ed, thanks for the clarification between geocentric (center of the earth) and topocentric (specific position onearth). I'll save your lessons to a folder from now on!
You wrote:
Quote:
We walk on a manufactured, apparently frozen sand of abstraction. And, Holy Smokes! We can do useful things with it.

Posts: 2570
Gender:Exactly. And it's discussions like this that have moved me away from the sign-symbol emphasis of common
astrology, to the emphasis on aspects. I also have Juan Revilla (Occam's Razor forum) and Darkstar Astrology(Marina & Jamie) to thank for this perspective over the past year.
What's most intriguing is how the "frozen sand" of astrological theory seems to turn to quick-sand when we
prod and provoke. However, the center always holds in the end.
Barbara's introduction of the differing sidereal versus tropical chart theories goes to a point Ed and I had
discussed last year.
Teapot Quote:
The Sun truly is the power behind life on earth. I think that the Indian/Vedic astrologers were on the right track when they called theirastrology "Jyotish", or the science (study) of light, even though I don't agree with their view that light comes from the stars has a causal
effect on life on earth - I think it's the Sun which is most important.

Ed used the metaphor of a ship's anchor to describe that in Tropical astrology, the chart is anchored to an
abstract point in topocentric time (The ASC at sunrise). In Sidereal the chart is "hitched to the stars" as it were,so the ASC progresses as the constellations do, creating a different chart with the ASC "reflecting" the changing
position of the stars in relation to earth. The anchor is more mobile, and so is the dock of the rest of our chartthat floats near it.
I've paraphrased again, and welcome Ed's clarification ... as I didn't save that note either.
I do know from examination, that a Sidereal chart seems much more like where one's been, or where one's
going ... than where one is AT.
Barbara, thanks for that diagram; it suits my graphic-cells. How do the inconjuncting lines between the signs
translate, astronomically/astrologically?
Moira

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Ethereal
Mountain

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #64 - on: 15.05.2012 at 00:16 [UT+1] »Memberthe graph shows the movement of the sun through the signs, with the seasonal points added - but added only
on one side. This shows that on opposite sides of the earth, the sign at the seasonal point (eg summer solstice)is an opposite one. To me, it's overly complicated, and doesn't show the sun's daily back and forth movement

Posts: 1039
Gender:clearly. You could equally have a graph with one set of zodiac signs running along, then chart the seasonal
points at the top and bottom eg at Cancer, it would say "summer solstice" at the top, and "winter solstice" atthe bottom. The sun is not changing signs, the weather is merely different at this point according to where you
are on the globe - just as it's day or night according to where you are on the globe. The graph makes it look
like the signs are happening simultaneously, through an all-important single seasonal pattern, because thatsuits the theory.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities

Matrika Matters

Member« Reply #65 - on: 15.05.2012 at 02:31 [UT+1] »Teapot Quote:
A good way to test if the Bipolar/Dual Zodiac works might be...
Posts: 7405

Since Bi-Polar is the disorder that was previously called Manic Depression... isn't it a really inappropriate term
to be using to describe any zodiac? Shouldn't that ring some alarm bells somewhere if you are claiming to be
more scientific and logical in your approach to astrology Teapot?
You are saying the mentally ill zodiac...and you are saying it in the Psychological and General section of theforum.
If you take a commonly used term from one discipline and appropriate it with no correspondence...it seems
really flaky to me. You are not even discussing the poles, you are discussing the hemispheres as far as I cantell.
It is not an obscure and little used term, it is in very common usage.
And has been pointed out, this is not about dignity, this is a different topic altogether isn't it?

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MoiraeMember

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #66 - on: 15.05.2012 at 03:46 [UT+1] »Matrika,
you wrote Quote:You are saying the mentally ill zodiac...and you are saying it in the Psychological and General section of the forum.

This is an hysterical interpretation of an intellectual discussion about polarity, or bi-polar functions that havenothing in this thread to do with mental illness. See the mere 6th definition of "bi-polar" below. Rated 6th outof 6 with 5 other analytical uses of the term which have nothing to do with psychology.

Posts: 2570
Gender:From the Free-Dictionary:
Quote:
adj.
1. Relating to or having two poles or charges.
2. Relating to a device capable of using two polarizations, such as a transistor that uses positive and negative charge carriers.
3. Relating to or involving both of the earth's polar regions.
4. Having two opposite or contradictory ideas or natures: the bipolar world of the postwar period.
5. Biology Having two poles or opposite extremities: a bipolar neuron.
6. Psychology Relating to a major affective disorder that is characterized by episodes of mania and depression"Bi-polar" is a commonly accepted terminology in many scientific fields. The state of opposition represented by
it is a matter of the sacred geometry in play with every atomic organism. This analytical concept refers to any
dynamic that represents tensions of energy between opposed points.
Teapot's intellectual work regarding the integration of the potential bi-polar nature of astrological entity fromthe Northern to Southern hemispheres is a useful investigation. To disregard her work as a critique of polarized
imperfections is just odd. She's working up a model of synthesis that makes sense out of the polarities.
Some here already perceive the polarities are synthesized. These are interesting immersions, well worth
examining.
Moira

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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #67 - on: 15.05.2012 at 04:34 [UT+1] »Thanks for the comments, support and outrage about my theory everyone. I did leave a rather long post #44, on the dignities, but since you guys were critical of the whole idea of reversing the signs, I thought I
would go into more detail to clarify, and I hope that Paul does not mind.
Someone else has jibed me at the name Bipolar, Matrika, but as Moirae said, the word was in existence long

Posts: 2454

before psychiatrists started using using it as a new name for Manic Depression. I do understand that it might
be offensive to some people however, and have made an effort to always mention alternative names like DualSign or Mirror Zodiac where possible.
I think I've explained the nuts and bolts of the theory as much as possible and do not expect anyone to justaccept it without a lot of criticism, and most of all testing. But we all know that astrological testing is not a cut
and dried science - it's very subjective, so all we can do is try to be as rational about it as we can.
BTW, Ethereal, John Lennon, Mick Jagger and Joni Mitchell have/had Venus in Virgo, and I don't think thatanyone would say that they are unsuccessful.

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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #68 - on: 15.05.2012 at 09:16 [UT+1] »Quote from Teapot on 15.05.2012 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Thanks for the comments, support and outrage about my theory everyone. I did leave a rather long post - #44, on the dignities, but since
you guys were critical of the whole idea of reversing the signs, I thought I would go into more detail to clarify, and I hope that Paul does
not mind.

Not at all, of course I'm familiar with your theory as we've discussed it before. I want to return to the original
theme of examining the dignities of course, but for the moment I'm distracted by the profections thread thatLouise set up to do that justice just now. So it's always interesting to hear how other people approach thesesituations.
Having said that it's might be better to create a separate thread to fully work out the theory in greater detail. I
would also suggest that really the theory should be examined for its arguments rather than its naming
conventions.
I think it's been an interesting distraction but I probably should return to the issue of dignities and how they
are altered, or not, in the southern hemisphere. Thanks to all who put forth their charts. I'll return to some ofthem soon!
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #69 - on: 15.05.2012 at 09:25 [UT+1] »One thing I'd like to add in terms of Ethereal's comment about dignity and indications of success.
In terms of natal astrology I tend to see planets acting out of dignity as often indicating a creative use or outof the box use of the energy. However sometimes we see it more clearly as indicating issues with the houseplacement or house ruler. We also need to examine what aspects and so forth (the accidental dignity in general)that the planet makes. IN my experience 'success' isn't seen so much by essential dignity but by powerful
accidental dignity. Angular planets, or planets making aspects to the MC, particularly by trine, can indicate
success.
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Matrika Matters
Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #70 - on: 15.05.2012 at 14:25 [UT+1] »Moirae Quote:
Teapot's intellectual work regarding the integration of the potential bi-polar nature of astrological entity from the Northern to Southernhemispheres is a useful investigation. To disregard her work as a critique of polarized imperfections is just odd. She's working up
a model of synthesis that makes sense out of the polarities.

Posts: 7405

Polarized imperfections? Where on earth did that come from? We appear to be reading entirely different posts.
I thought she was writing about the signs from a northern and southern view. That does not to me assume apolarity. However, I am committed to a non-dual view.
To be very clear, I did not anywhere suggest disregarding Teapot's work I suggested that the name bi-polar
zodiac is inappropriate because it is in common use as a description of a disorder. And because it is not thepoles that are being discussed so it seems inappropriate to me. You may like it and use it...I may express theview that you may not be taken seriously when you publish if you use that name.
What's in a name?
Quite a lot if you read the threads here which list mythic associations and seriously suggest nominatively
deterministic meanings to pretty well every body that is discussed.
I expressed no opinion about the idea, so please do not characterize my post as being critical of Teapot's
research when what I criticized was the name.
I am an Antipodean Taurean with few of the characteristics of a Taurean and have no attachment at all tokeeping my sun sign. Right now I have little attachment to my chart in fact. Even astrology. It is anamusement for me not a profession nor am I an astrological researcher. I rarely pay any attention to signs andam accustomed to reading aspects as they provide me information I find far more meaningful. Whether that is
because I was born in the southern hemisphere, I have no idea at all.
Moirae Quote:This is an hysterical interpretation

That's interesting.
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Alice Portman

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #71 - on: 16.05.2012 at 01:13 [UT+1] »Quote:
author=Moirae link=1335974674/60#66 date=1337049961

Teapot's intellectual work regarding the integration of the potential bi-polar nature of astrological entity from the Northern to Southern

Posts: 2541
Gender:hemispheres is a useful investigation. To disregard her work as a critique of polarized imperfections is just odd. She's working up a modelof synthesis that makes sense out of the polarities.
Some here already perceive the polarities are synthesized. These are interesting immersions, well worth examining.
Moira

I am frantically busy at the moment so have no time to join in this interesting discussion, but I must point out
that the theory that Teapot presents is just that, a theory
It is the Southern Hemisphere astrologers who are doing the actual, hands on, research and to date they haveall said that the signs of the zodiac are the same in both hemispheres. This has been arbitarily dismissed by
Teapot as subjective!
Good lord, don't you think that all these professional astrologers who have beenpracticing astrology for a very long time would have said to themselves "hmmm.. for some reason this Pisces isbehaving more like a Virgo and this Capricorn is behaving more like a Cancer, perhaps the signs are reversed in
the Southern Hemisphere?" as none at all (to my knowledge) have ever said this and I, after 40+ years ofprofessional astrology haven't either, it makes it highly unlikely the theory is correct. To keep insisting it isseems rather insulting to Southern Hemisphere astrologers generally.
The attempt to make the signs of the zodiac confirm to Northern Hemisphere seasons by Northern Hemisphereastrologers just shows how ingrained is their alignment of seasons with signs. I have said before and am
saying again, the seasons and the signs of the zodiac are two different things. Just because Northern
Hemisphere astrologers have mapped the correlation for centuries because of their spot in the globe doesn'tmean that they are the same, it just means that Northern Hemisphere astrologers think they are the same.
I don't care how popular the theory is with Northern Hemisphere astrologers at Northern Hemisphereconferences, it doesn't make it so! Nor does it matter at all how many Northern Hemisphere astrologers
examine the theory and exclaim how elegant it is, it doesn't make it right. Why oh why don't you listen to
the astrologers who are actually living in the Southern Hemisphere?

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MoiraeMember

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #72 - on: 16.05.2012 at 01:25 [UT+1] »Matrika wrote:
Quote:
Polarized imperfections? Where on earth did that come from? We appear to be reading entirely different posts. I thought she was writing
about the signs from a northern and southern view. That does not to me assume a polarity.

Teapot has been writing to astrology from a Northern and Southern view, and her theories go to a synthesis of
the bi-polared oppositions from a Northern and Southern perspective. She's responded to your post as
succinctly as possible. If one's going to study any differences with sign assignations or dignities, one must holda concept/context of polarity in mind while thinking through this.
Posts: 2570
Gender:Your post indicated that considering "polarization" was tantamount to this thread's study of a traumatic
psychological condition. I chose the words " polarized imperfections" to indicate we're not sourcing trauma
here ... we're sourcing perfected models. What we're thinking through here is systems of polarized perfections
that work or don't work, in the astrological matrix.
~~~
Yes, Paul ... we've diverted from the dignities. You should be least surprised that this thread's consideringbase-line assumptions about the existent or non-existent differences between a Northern or Southernhemisphere chart.
It seems, by now in the thread, that SHemisphere astrologers are equally capable of working with what's been
defined via a Nhemisphere experience of western tropical astrology. What I do find interesting is how moreaware the Australian astrologers are of traditional Indian astrology. This might throw some light on matters.
Or maybe not. Might just add more complexity to the theory ?
M.

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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #73 - on: 16.05.2012 at 01:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Alice McDermott on 16.05.2012 at 01:13 [UT+1]:
Why oh why don't you listen to the astrologers who are actually living in the Southern Hemisphere?
Alice

I am listening Alice. I think that we astrologers would like to approach this like scientists approach scientific
Posts: 2454

theories. The most notable ones which come to mind are the theory of gravity and the theory of evolution. The
first theory was so accurate in its predictions when formulated by Newton that it wasn't long before it was
accepted as a law, and evolution has so much evidence in its favor that it cannot be disproven. But as we know,
we have no such facts (apart from the Gauquelin evidence) with astrology, even when we just stick to one ofearth's hemisphere's.
Have Southern astrologers looked at the Outer Planet placements in horoscopes? If there really is a dual-sign
Zodiac, then my generation of Pluto in Leo would of course have Pluto in Aquarius. This idea is what started me
thinking about the whole idea, because when I was growing up in England, I had a friend who was born inSouth Africa, and while my home grown peers were all caught up in Beatle and Rolling Stone mania, she wasvery active in politics. Of course, this observation could be correlated with other placements and aspects of herhoroscope, but it was a big cultural divide which seemed to me in hindsight to be much more than something
represented by the inner planets.
Similarly, what have you astrologers noticed about the 1984- 1996 babies with Pluto in Scorpio? Do they
display the same deep deep psychological angst and sometimes tendency towards violence displayed by thesenatives in the North ? Or do they show any traits of wanting transform more Taurean aspects of society, likereal estate, food production or gardening?
And what about the Neptune in Capricorn generation? Any signs that they are more disillusioned, non-materialand spiritual about families and nurturing rather than about corporations?
Maybe these questions raise more questions than they can answer, because the opposite signs are so intimately
connected, but be assured that I'm open to any observations, and the last thing I would want to do is to try totell anyone what they should believe.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #74 - on: 16.05.2012 at 09:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Moirae on 16.05.2012 at 01:25 [UT+1]:
Yes, Paul ... we've diverted from the dignities. You should be least surprised that this thread's considering base-line assumptions about
the existent or non-existent differences between a Northern or Southern hemisphere chart.
It seems, by now in the thread, that SHemisphere astrologers are equally capable of working with what's been defined via a Nhemisphere
experience of western tropical astrology. What I do find interesting is how more aware the Australian astrologers are of traditional Indian
astrology. This might throw some light on matters. Or maybe not. Might just add more complexity to the theory ?

If you read back what Alice Mc D has said she pointed out that she does not use the dignities system in any
regular way - alluding to the fact that they may not actually work. Of course we can assume that Alice isreading the charts, primarily, of those born in the southern hemisphere. With that in mind it's possible that thereason they do not work is that they are indeed seasonally defined. We do not know. I am not purporting wechange our astrology here or even that the southern hemisphere astrologers should stop what they're doing or
do anything different than they are. I'm just saying, hey, this might be a nice little experiment, let's play withthis theory and see what happens.
Of course I respect Teapot's opinion on what she is calling the bipolar zodiac, and her explanation for her
rationale on it. I have some problems with the theory which I mentioned another time in another thread.

As for the latter point, I'm not sure what you mean regarding asking about Indian astrology. Why would thatbe relevant? In my experience Southern Hemisphere astrologers are no less educated on astrology thannorthern hemisphere astrologers and are equally as likely to know about indian astrology. In my experience thelonger the astrologer has been practicing the more likely they are to have picked up bits and pieces or at least
educate themselves on the gist of Indian astrology. As a rule, Indian astrology emerged from the Hellenistic
period, so if someone wanted to learn TRADITIONAL indian astrology they could fairly easily do so by
examining traditional hellenistic astrology and then learning the systems regarding the lunar mansions and soforth which are Indian in origin.
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MoiraeMember

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #75 - on: 17.05.2012 at 21:17 [UT+1] »Paul asked Quote:I'm not sure what you mean regarding asking about Indian astrology. Why would that be relevant? In my experience Southern Hemisphereastrologers are no less educated on astrology than northern hemisphere astrologers and are equally as likely to know about indian
astrology.

My point was that I think southern hemisphere astrologers are more aware of Indian astrology than northern
astrologers, probably because of geographical/cultural proximity. This is based on my interactions and readings

Posts: 2570
Gender:with southern hemisphere astrologers for a couple of years, and with some north/western astrologers who also
practice a blend of Jyotish and Western astrology, mostly by grace of their personal exposure to East Asian
cultures.
I'm clear that all of these astrologers use rulerships, but the dignities have never been prevalent in chart
conversations between us. So, as Alice goes, perhaps? Have you asked SSML to check in on this thread ? I
think it pertinent that he's from the Northern Hemisphere, but re-located to the Southern Hemisphere. His
thoughts could be enlightening to the discussion.
Moira

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PhoebeEx Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #76 - on: 18.05.2012 at 13:31 [UT+1] »TeapotAre you familiar with Gerry Goddard's work?
Astrological Polarities
http://www.islandastrology.net/gender.htm
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #77 - on: 19.05.2012 at 02:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Phoebe on 18.05.2012 at 13:31 [UT+1]:
TeapotAre you familiar with Gerry Goddard's work?
Astrological Polarities
http://www.islandastrology.net/gender.htm

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No, I was not familiar with Gerry Goddard's work before reading the link. But I do agree with his opening
paragraph where he says that the bi-polar principle is common in astrology. I was just thinking earlier about
why the ancients chose to have 12 constellations in their Zodiac, not 13, 14, 18 (like the ancient Babylonians)
or any other number. And I've read that the reason is partly because of the great factorability of the number
12. It can be divided by 3, 4, or of course 2. So the circle of the Zodiac can be divided into other divisions suchas triplicities, quadruplicities and of course opposites, or bi-polarities.
I had also come across the principle in occultism, namely in the book The Kybalion, supposedly written
incognito by "3 initiates"by I suspect by the CEOs of the Golden Dawn or Rosicrucians. I am very aware at how
opposite signs act together and always like the example of Taurus and Scorpio because it is so obvious in mygarden. Plants need fertilizer to grow, and this comes from last year's death and decay. Virgo-Pisces is a favorite
too;good poetry which enables us to escape the material world (Pisces) requires the exact right use of words(Virgo), or artistic photography is enhanced by good equipment etc, etc.
I always get a bit perplexed though when people start using these deep principles of occultism and astrology totalk about gender politics. For sure, both men and women have both masculine and feminine polarities on theinside , but on the outside, they still have different bodies, which are made for different functions. So although
I'm all for gender equality in the work place and even calling a relationship a marriage if two people love eachother, I don't think that bi-polarity can extend to doing things to the human body that it wasn't built for.
As for the inner "spiritual' polarities he mentions, for example, the Sun being Self-conscious and the Moon
being unconscious or subconscious, that's exactly how I learned the theory in kabala, with reference to themajor arcana tarot keys and the pillars of Jachin and Boaz (black and white) of the Tree Of Life.
In another thread, Phoebe, you asked whether I was I was an Aussie and I thought I'd reply here as I thought
the idea was more relevant to the topic of this thread (in as much as we've diverted it somewhat from Paul's
initial questions). No, I'm from England but currently live in Los Angeles. I started thinking about all this dual sign stuff because L.A., at 34 degrees North has a completely different weather cycle from London at 52N, and I
began to wonder whether earth's Latitude affected a person's horoscope, as well as Longitude. I'd studies Jim
Lewis's work on Astrolocality (which was based on the work of Fagan and Bradley I think) which uses Longitude
as it's main determining factor ,and wondered if there was a sort of parallel principle for Latitude.
Brisbane, N. Australia is at a nearly equivalent latitude as L.A. but of course south of the Equator, so the twocities have do have some similarities.
Another point which I wanted to mention with reference to the N-S hemisphere dilemma in astrology is that I
don't think astrologers from one hemisphere "own" charts from that part of the world. They are of course morefamiliar with their own clients, from their own environment, but there are plenty of celebrities on astrodatabankfor example that were born in either the N. or S. Hemisphere, and whose charts are open for anyone tointerpret.
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Re: Antipodean Dignities« Reply #78 - on: 19.05.2012 at 19:02 [UT+1] »the earth is a round and the crossroad leads everyehere and inside upside down right left.....same forall....when in time.

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