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Equal houses (Read 1633 times)

StellaPolaris
Ex Member

Equal houses« on: 27.09.2009 at 21:45 [UT+1] »To those of you who prefer equal houses - do you use this house system in synastry, composite, solar return,progressed charts?

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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #1 - on: 27.09.2009 at 22:39 [UT+1] »Whenever I look at a chart no matter what house system I also picture it in my mind as equal house. This iseasy enough as the equal house 10th/4th houses are the zenith/nadir of a chart, the points directly above
and directly below the native, and those points are at right angles to the horizon or in simple terms squareto the Ascendant. I often end up thinking the equal house system appears to explain things perfectly well.
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Alvaro Fdez
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #2 - on: 27.09.2009 at 23:07 [UT+1] »SunSagMoonLib,
Is really any difference regarding a reading? I'm asking because I don't know
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #3 - on: 27.09.2009 at 23:44 [UT+1] »Hi Alvaro,
I'm not sure just what you're asking , as a planet may be in completely different houses depending on thesystem. I tend to do charts as Placidean as that's what most people use and I do think Placidean houses
appear to work well enough. The cusps seem to be sensitive points.
I sometimes find though that Placidean and Equal Houses can both explain things using different planetsin various houses. It's like having a different perspective.
However when I do Solar and Lunar returns I find that equal houses sometimes seem to give clearer results,
and equal house angles are effective. For example Jupiter /mercury may be exactly on the equal 4th cusp
when a person leaves their home base or home country to go on a big trip, but may not be angular in anothermethod. Likewise the Sun or Moon or some other planet may be exactly on the equal 5th house cusp whensomeone has a love liaison. Yes one could read these as aspects to the Ascendant in other systems , but inother house systems they may fall into houses that have a different meaning or lack the angularity that isnecessary to make them a dominant influence, especially in the system of solunar returns I use.
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Alvaro Fdez
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #4 - on: 27.09.2009 at 23:53 [UT+1] »Thank you very much for the explanation, I only used Placidus for all and never used other house systems,
actually. I'm curious to see the effects thought.

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language

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #5 - on: 28.09.2009 at 02:00 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 27.09.2009 at 23:44 [UT+1]:
Hi Alvaro,
I'm not sure just what you're asking , as a planet may be in completely different houses depending on the system. I tend to do charts as
Placidean as that's what most people use and I do think Placidean houses appear to work well enough. The cusps seem to be sensitive
points.
I sometimes find though that Placidean and Equal Houses can both explain things using different planets in various houses. It's like having
a different perspective.

I have a very hazy memory of your nativity but I'm wondering if any of your planets fall in different houses inthese 2 systems. I ask as with Psychological Astrology the meanings are profoundly different and the veracity ofthem determines if 'we' are using an accurate chart. So it's not really, or at all, about a different perspective......
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #6 - on: 28.09.2009 at 02:35 [UT+1] »Hi language,
you will see here in my Placidean chart that my Ascendant ruler Mars is in the 4th house, four degrees shortof the 5th house.
But using Equal Houses Mars will be Four degrees inside my 5th house.
As Mars is Ascendant ruler one would expect it to be an important planet in delineation. I would be interested
how you will see that as revealing me as either a more 4th house or more 5th house person in expression
and why it can't give two perspectives..
(in fact if one used whole sign houses then Mars would be 6th house! And an interpretation for that position
also has some validity in my experience.)
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Alice Portman

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #7 - on: 28.09.2009 at 02:58 [UT+1] »HI SunSagMoonLib
Have you done any work to discover which house system is your major resonance?
Posts: 2541
Gender:Mars in Virgo is in the 5th house in the Alcabitius, Campanus, Koch and Porphyry house systems, giving you avery strong 5th house flavour. In Campanus, Koch and Porphyry it is conjunct the 5th cusp.
Mars in Virgo would echo the 6th house flavour you have mentioned.
It is likely that your major resonance is one of the above house systems because Australia has Aries rising with
Mars in Virgo in the 5th and you moved here years ago. The move itself gives your relocated Ascendant as
Aries with Mars in Virgo in the 5th house.
Equal houses are not a proper house system, they are an Ascendant or MC oriented system made up of 12
equal 30 degree segments around the chart so you can only relate the planets in these 'houses' to the
Ascendant rather than to the nature of the house itself.
Whole signs don't cover house systems at all, they are just the signs of the zodiac taken from the Ascendant
sign.
Alice

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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #8 - on: 28.09.2009 at 03:38 [UT+1] »Hi Alice,
I understand your point of view, nevertheless I do view the Equal House system as a proper system. Pretty
well all systems divide equally some segment whether by time or space. While many divide the segment
between the Asc and MC, one should remember the MC was not always a factor in the first horoscopes.
Equal house simply divides the ecliptic based on the horizon rather than using the quadrants as defined by
the addition of the Midheaven. Equal house is an ecliptic based house system and is by definition a housesystem possibly the earliest along with whole sign houses. To deny it is to view houses as only coming into
existence with quadrant systems (or perhaps Porphyry which is an ecliptic system that divides the ecliptic
equally between Asc axis and MC axis). I realise you have a different point of view on this and that's ok
but you won't change my mind about it.
Of interest in timing:
My father had his leg amputated at the thigh when I was a litle older than 2 and a half. Not certain of theexact time. However my progressed Mars was perfecting a quincunx to my natal MC that year which is apossible indication of that event. My father is quite well described by Pluto Saturn and Mars in my 4th houseas he was a senior manager with a firm that processed animals for export (meat, hides wool, etc) That isfits saturn Pluto. He was also a Major with five years active service in the army during world war 2 and thatwas really a defining part of his life and that fits Mars in 4th house. If you grow up with a war veteran(shattered ear dums, reactions to loud sudden noises, never lean over him while he's asleep or he may reflex
chop you) you'll appreciate what I mean.
However when my IC progressed to the place of my natal mars my wife became pregnant with our firstson. (January/feb 1977), and subsequently we married. A child is a 5th house matter.
Interestingly the Solar return for that period put the SR Ascendant exactly on my natal Mars for thelocation we were living in at that time (Melbourne) - I do precession corrected Solar Returns - and that is
an indication that a 5th house event ( a child as it turned out) would be the salient influence that year.
As for psychologicalexpressions, I worked as an advertising "creative" writer Mars in virgo in 5th describesthat as does Mars in Virgo in 6th (conditions of employment). I have also worked from home as a freelancer
for many years so mars in virgo with Mars in 4th house can also fit. I am very much into physical fitness
running or swimming or both virtually every day. It is a hobby and recreation for me so 5th house and 6thhouse both fit. I could go on but you will see why I believe one can still be accurate about a person while
using different house systems. As to which do I prefer for myself, I probably lean more to Mars in 5thhouse in terms of myself so as well as the house systems you suggested would be apppropriate, it also fits
equal house rather well..
« Last Edit: 28.09.2009 at 13:47 [UT+1] by afternoon sun »Back to top

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direct Jupitarian

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #9 - on: 28.09.2009 at 06:12 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 28.09.2009 at 03:38 [UT+1]:

As for psychological expressions, I worked as an avertising "creative" writer Mars in virgo in 5th describes that as does Mars in Virgo in 6th(conditions of employment). I have also worked from home as a freelancer for many years so mars in virgo with Mars in 4th house canalso fit. I am very much into physical fitness running or swimming or both virtually every day. It is ahobby and recreation for me so 5th house and 6th house both fit. I could go on but you will see why I believe
one can still be accurate about a person while using different house systems. As to which do I prefer for myself, I probably lean more to
Mars in 5th house in terms of myself so as well as the house systems you suggested would be apppropriate, it also fits equal house rather
well..

If you factor in that your Mars is in Virgo, you can safely and easily take the 6th house out of the equation,and stick more to the combo of 4th/5th interpretation. I also have Virgo Mars and like to be active physically,
as both a health and pleasure thing and my Mars is in the 2nd, but CON the ruler of the 5th.
In your case, i would read it has strongly merging with the 5th, but still somewhat indicative of 4th houseareas and matters. I have noticed cusping oft times with Planets at the end of one sign, etc., and in a way thisis similar. Everything blends and merges, nothing is completely separate from anything else, and astrology
accordingly follows the macro cosmic laws and truths.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #10 - on: 28.09.2009 at 06:29 [UT+1] »Quote:
If you factor in that your Mars is in Virgo, you can safely and easily take the 6th house out of the equation

Hello DJI'm interested you're so certain about this. I have had interesting discussions withat least one hellenistic

astrologer who would have directly opposed views to yours. Likewise any sidereal astrologer would pooh
pooh the idea that tropical virgo is virgo, so it all depends on where you are coming from. I no longer careto jump from one view to the other just because someone tells me so (and usually that someone has far
less experience than myself in astrology and certainly less with my chart). I am however quite willing tolisten to and consider other points of view if they are not too dogmatic, as I do believe that staying totight keyword structures one can be quite accurate using different house systems. I leave for work now
so won't go through that exercise at this time, but you may find it worth doing with some charts.

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direct Jupitarian

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #11 - on: 28.09.2009 at 07:18 [UT+1] »To call and label oneself a "hellenistic", vedic, psychological, spiritual, or whatever kind of astrologer is bynature dogmatic.
Personally, i don't call myself any of these, but go by a combo what works, by experience, and by intuition.
Sometimes i may fit more into one group or system, and at other times more into another. I gave you a
particularly good example of another person with Virgo Mars with a similar dynamic, but no connection to the
6th house (but a CON to the 5th house ruler).
reasearch and i might consider.

You want a collection of data on this?

Well, pay me for the

But really, this is a pretty down the middle type astrological outline. Mars=raw physical energy, physicalactivity, especially along the lines of strengthenign the body, sports, etc., Virgo=health, exercise relating tohealth, etc. So one possible meaning for Mars in Virgo is that of someone who takes an active interest in, andactive physical participation of exercise for health reasons, and with Mars closely cusping the 5th House cusp,
then this interest and focus would also be in area of pleasurable activities for the person--a physicallypleasurable interest and activity.
Btw, by what i wrote earlier, i was not attempting to invalidate the equal house system, or any house system
at all, i just saw a perfectly reasonable and practical explanation for something that didn't necessarily need to
be attributed to another house system. Let's just say that Virgo and Mercury is a little stronger in my chart.
I am open minded to the equal house system, and have experimented with it, and a couple of other housesystems. I happen to believe that no matter what house system one uses, the 1st house should at least be 30
degrees (not even including conjunctions from the 12th) because of what a sensitive and important area of thechart it is.
It is similar in a way to the notion of giving the Sun or Moon a larger orb for aspects than most of the otherplanets.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #12 - on: 28.09.2009 at 12:49 [UT+1] »Quote:
If you factor in that your Mars is in Virgo, you can safely and easily take the 6th house out of the equation

Yes JD I understand that Mars in Virgo in the 5th can mean pleasurable physical activity (or competitive
physical activity in a sporting arena too which describes one of my sons) but you have avoided answering
my query about your bold statement why I "can safely and easily take the 6th house out of the equation".
Why?
Afterall mars in Virgo in the 6thjust asperfectly describes my drive and energy (Mars) expressed indetailed writing for industry (virgo) in my place of employment (6th house) and a lot of advertising writing isabout service (advertising is a service industry and client service is paramount) . Given the tight square
between Mars and Mercury this is almost certainly the key component in my working life as a writer.
Mars in Virgo in 6th can also describe the various in between jobs I have done including brickie's labouring
and building site labouring, and jack hammer work, and sorting out parcels in my place of work forinterstate and local delivery by others... so you see it is quite feasible to give it a sixth house interpretationand quite accurate too if one were to say I would experience all this in my working environment. I did.
On the other hand it is also valid to give a contrasting equal 6th house interpretation using my Moon in
Libra with Neptune also in Libra both in the sixth house as indicating a gravititation to partnerships at work
( I worked in a team relationship much of the the time, and also met my wife at my place of work). Moon
also indicates the domestic everyday nature of much of the advertising work which included typicalhousehold products. While Neptune in 6th is a good indication of the glamourous and glossy side of theadvertising work, creating illusions, and also of the visual media and the visual imagery of TV and film andphotgraphy as well, which were all a daily part of creating advertisements. Neptune there can also show theuncertain work environment of advertising, and the overseas travel I undertook for work as well asworking on airline accounts etc.
So you see there are many ways to look at this, not just one way.
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Querian

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #13 - on: 28.09.2009 at 15:04 [UT+1] »I like using equal houses. They do not make a big difference in my own chart, I think it only moves (fromPlacidus) Chiron from the 8th to the 7th. I feel Chiron is very active in both houses in my experience.
In my boyfriend's chart however there are huge changes:
GDE from house 4 to house 3

BKJ from house 5 to house 4
O from house 6 to house 5
Posts: 3217
Gender:He has a wonderful view of his childhood which I find hard to believe with both EG in the 4th but looking at itwith equal houses the B there brings a nostalgia to the early childhood home that I think it otherwise lacking
in his chart.
That's just one small example but I also think it really helps when looking at charts with otherwise interceptedhouses, also.
Then again, I also use whole sign houses and Koch and Prophyry, too. I'm a house whore, I guess, making out
with all of them!
Hey SSML, I agree, Mars in Virgo in the 6th fits what you are saying. I think Mars is accidentally dignified in
the 6th, it gives him a good place to do his work and stay active on a day to day basis.

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language
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #14 - on: 28.09.2009 at 23:05 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 28.09.2009 at 02:35 [UT+1]:
Hi language,
you will see here in my Placidean chart that my Ascendant ruler Mars is in the 4th house, four degrees short of the 5th house.
But using Equal Houses Mars will be Four degrees inside my 5th house.
As Mars is Ascendant ruler one would expect it to be an important planet in delineation. I would be interested how you will see that asrevealing me as either a more 4th house or more 5th house person in expression and why it can't give two perspectives..
(in fact if one used whole sign houses then Mars would be 6th house! And an interpretation for that position also has some validity in myexperience.)

First question is where did this time come from?
Bit of a shame it’s in the same quadrant regardless otherwise we could really explore the contradictions,anyway……..
If you want we can conduct a 'little' exploratory experiment here:
Can you answer yes or no to the following questions and then if you wish write something about the answer.
(Mars can give 12 perspectives and I think you'll find a person may resonate to some extent to informationsuggesting Mars is in any house (particularly when its Barnumised). Astrology's rationale is that one of thesedelineations will be significantly more 'true' than the others).
1/ - Did your father exercise more control in your upbringing than is usual.
2/ - Do you find sedentary work unrewarding.
3/ - Are you more likely to argue with people inside the house than outside the house.
4/ - Do you have a 'particular' urge to be 'number one'.
5/- Do you impose your way more so when seeking to 'belong' than when seeking to 'differ'.
6/- Do you project your personal aggression onto collective causes.
7/ - Is the means by which you go about getting want you want generated by the need to feel 'special'.
8/ - Is your dream lady more of a domestic goddess than a playful bunny.
9/ - Do you put more energy into building a secure base than building a sense of uniqueness.
10/- Are you more likely to jump of the sofa when the hoovering needs doing or when a game needs playing.
11/ - Are you more likely to do the decorating than the Mrs.
12/ - Is your assertion more confident than circumspect.
13 / - Does your day begin in the morning as opposed to the evening
14 / - Were you motivated to have children in your late teens/early 20’s.
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #15 - on: 28.09.2009 at 23:34 [UT+1] »Hi Querian,
yes although I do see how various houses can be accurate I tend to use only two most of the time, Placidean
and Equal house. But I am aware that a planet in sign on a cusp may carry its influence into the next houseand this gives some credence also to whole sign houses, and this can be noticed in Lunar returns when
Jupiter is say in the 12th house but in sign on Ascendant. The vibe of that Lunar return may well be more
typical of an angular Jupiter. So I am wary of being too restricted in my views about houses.
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IP Loggedlynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #16 - on: 29.09.2009 at 00:58 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 28.09.2009 at 23:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 28.09.2009 at 02:35 [UT+1]:
Hi language,
you will see here in my Placidean chart that my Ascendant ruler Mars is in the 4th house, four degrees short of the 5thhouse.
But using Equal Houses Mars will be Four degrees inside my 5th house.
As Mars is Ascendant ruler one would expect it to be an important planet in delineation. I would be interested how you will
see that as revealing me as either a more 4th house or more 5th house person in expression and why it can't give two
perspectives..
(in fact if one used whole sign houses then Mars would be 6th house! And an interpretation for that position also has somevalidity in my experience.)

First question is where did this time come from?
Bit of a shame it’s in the same quadrant regardless otherwise we could really explore the contradictions, anyway……..
If you want we can conduct a 'little' exploratory experiment here:
Can you answer yes or no to the following questions and then if you wish write something about the answer.
(Mars can give 12 perspectives and I think you'll find a person may resonate to some extent to information suggesting Mars is in any
house (particularly when its Barnumised). Astrology's rationale is that one of these delineations will be significantly more 'true' than theothers).
1/ - Did your father exercise more control in your upbringing than is usual.
2/ - Do you find sedentary work unrewarding.
3/ - Are you more likely to argue with people inside the house than outside the house.
4/ - Do you have a 'particular' urge to be 'number one'.
5/- Do you impose your way more so when seeking to 'belong' than when seeking to 'differ'.
6/- Do you project your personal aggression onto collective causes.
7/ - Is the means by which you go about getting want you want generated by the need to feel 'special'.
8/ - Is your dream lady more of a domestic goddess than a playful bunny.
9/ - Do you put more energy into building a secure base than building a sense of uniqueness.
10/- Are you more likely to jump of the sofa when the hoovering needs doing or when a game needs playing.
11/ - Are you more likely to do the decorating than the Mrs.
12/ - Is your assertion more confident than circumspect.
13 / - Does your day begin in the morning as opposed to the evening
14 / - Were you motivated to have children in your late teens/early 20’s.

Really good questions, Language. My brother has E in the 4th, and he jumped out at me when I read throughthis.
Where did you get them? Or did you come up with them yourself? I would like to know more about thesequestions.
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StefanEx Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #17 - on: 29.09.2009 at 01:53 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 27.09.2009 at 23:44 [UT+1]:

However when I do Solar and Lunar returns I find that equal houses sometimes seem to give clearer results, and equal house angles are
effective. For example Jupiter /mercury may be exactly on the equal 4th cusp when a person leaves their home base or home country to
go on a big trip, but may not be angular in another method. Likewise the Sun or Moon or some other planet may be exactly on the equal
5th house cusp when someone has a love liaison. Yes one could read these as aspects to the Ascendant in other systems , but in otherhouse systems they may fall into houses that have a different meaning or lack the angularity that is necessary to make them a dominant
influence, especially in the system of solunar returns I use.

Did my solar returns for some important years.
I had in two quite event filled and significant years eclipses on my birthday.
It showed that using equal houses the house of the eclipse stellium both times showed the experience best.
in first year with travel to foreign country getting an initiation from a guru 1987 which still is going strong inme using methods daily. This solar return had eclipse stellium in 9th house of travel and Gurus/teachers inequal houses.
Placidus showed 10th (there was a job shift as well).
Other event was a year dominated by a quite good gain of apartment and moving with a lot of renovating.
Here the eclipse stellium was in 4th house equal houses/3rd placidus
Since then the respect for equal houses got stronger.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #18 - on: 29.09.2009 at 03:32 [UT+1] »Hello Language,
I work in market research interviewing and ask many questions of people in phone surveys and am wellaware of the inadequacies of such research when questions are generalised. These questions are just as
subjective as debating astrological houses. There is no clearcut answer, yes or no, to these questions forme. For example:
1. Did my father exercise more control in my upbringing than usual?
What is usual? He was usual for me. However he had a military background (like many at that time though
he had some rank) and was used to being obeyed, and was a Capricornian so liked control and believed in
discipline. He had an artificial leg so I could avoid getting "caught" by him had I wished so any threat of a
spanking was rather lame (excuse the pun). He was an authority figure and could be intimidating but wasabove being violent to women and children. He had a sense of humour. He tended to avoid being homenear our bed time when we were kids as he disliked noise (like many war veterans). I was a little dictator
and threw tantrums to get my own way as I approached adolescence. I went to boarding school in my teenyears so his control was not direct most of the time. I had lots of unsupervised free time when at home, I
had an older brother (the 2nd son gets an easier time) and I had younger brothers. We lived in a big houseon 2 acres of bushy land adjoining native bush and hills that I could explore, and I was left to my own devices
much of the time.
So to be honest I could answer either way to the first question
2. Do you find sedentary work unrewarding?
Emotionally? Financially? Now or then? No work appealed to me as a youth, it was a necessity. I would
rather have spent my time romancing and having a good time. I wanted the sugar coating and not the pill. I
loved reading but I had no idea what I wanted to do for work, maybe something artistic (but my art teacher
advised me against it). Everything looked boring. I was going to go to university (but without a clear
direction). Then a teacher suggested journalism. I got lucky and got a job at a newspaper though felt I wasa little too shy and introverted at that age to want to be a reporter (although I hid it well). I switched toadvertising writing when an opportunity presented itself.
I was never going to be a labourer or manual worker as a career. But neither did I like structured formal
environments typical of most sedentary jobs.
I found advertising relatively well paid, it paid for my house and I met my wife there. At its most enjoyable
it was like indulging in a creative hobby, dreaming up campaigns, and television scripts, an exciting world ofimagination. But of course that was an era that soon passed and in reality advertising is a serious businessand not at all about self indulgence. I’m 61 now. Sitting at a desk for part of a day is no great hardship if I
have something interesting to occupy myself and provided I get some exercise each day as well.
I would have to answer some sedentary work is unrewarding some is not.
3. Are you more likely to argue with people inside the house than outside the house?
I tend to avoid arguments. I don’t mind a limited debate or discussion like we have here on house systems,
but actual arguments are tedious and to me like harsh music: tiresome, unpleasant and destructive andheadache material, so if I find an argumentive person intruding on me I’ll move or tell them to piss off.
So the answer is neither.
11. Are you more likely to do the decorating than the missus?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I might paint a picture on the wall but the truth is we share and discuss.
Sometimes she chooses sometimes I do, there’s no set pattern on major decoration such as choosing
carpets, or wall colours, its basically a joint decision. I might do the harder physical work but she’ll getstuck in too and might end up doing as much or more than me.
14. Were you motivated to have children in your early teens/late 20’s?
I didn’t have children in my late teens /early 20s. I wasn’t motivated to have them, they just happened after I
turned 29 and I just accepted it (happily enough).
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Vic DiCara

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #19 - on: 29.09.2009 at 03:52 [UT+1] »I personally prefer whole-sign to equal house or any other system. It is very simple and practical.

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language
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #20 - on: 29.09.2009 at 09:45 [UT+1] »Quote:
I work in market research interviewing and ask many questions of people in phone surveys and am well aware of the inadequacies of suchresearch when questions are generalised. These questions are just as subjective as debating astrological houses. There is no clearcut
answer, yes or no, to these questions for me.

Whats the thinking behind the mural?
I was wondering if one or two of the questions might have elicited a more resonant response, as it is based onthese 5 I would say we have a touch more 'evidence' for it being in the 4th.

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language

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #21 - on: 29.09.2009 at 09:50 [UT+1] »Quote:
Really good questions, Language. My brother has

E in the 4th, and he jumped out at me when I read through this.

Where did you get them? Or did you come up with them yourself? I would like to know more about these questions

A mixture of sources, some are generated by me. A touch more 4th emphasis so I'm wondering what questions
made your brother 'stand out'?

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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #22 - on: 29.09.2009 at 10:16 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 29.09.2009 at 09:50 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Really good questions, Language. My brother has

E in the 4th, and he jumped out at me when I read through this.

Where did you get them? Or did you come up with them yourself? I would like to know more about these questions

A mixture of sources, some are generated by me. A touch more 4th emphasis so I'm wondering what questions made your brother 'standout'?

Question 1; No, but our mother (aA) definately did.
Yes to questions 2,3,5,6,8,9,13 and 14.
My brother also has B in the 4th though.
In equal house, B moves into the 5th, but E remains in the 4th, which may still fit.
Whole signs, they both move into the 5th, but I just can't stretch to that at all.
All this prompted me to look again at my own chart. I have oppositions across the 2nd/8th axis, which allchange to the 3rd/9th using both equal and whole sign. Mmm, both could be true, but I lean towards placidus
being closer to the full story.
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language

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #23 - on: 29.09.2009 at 11:46 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 29.09.2009 at 10:16 [UT+1]:[Yes to questions 2,3,5,6,8,9,13 and 14.
Mmm, both could be true, but I lean towards placidus being closer to the full story.

Well 8 yes's and 5 are saying mars is in the 4th and 3 in the 5th so I'm not sure your understanding of yourbrothers nativity is progressing much here??
As to both true, well this is the sceptics argument(s),.....................
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lynnifer
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #24 - on: 29.09.2009 at 12:01 [UT+1] »Well, at risk of getting barbed by your 'intellectual superiority' yet again, this just confirms what I've longthought about the house systems debate.
Which is, I don't really believe in definate house cusps, more that the houses blend one into then next, andplanets near the cusp (wherever it is) influence both houses. This renders particular house systems irrelevant tome. I think the angles are important though, and I am strongly influenced by the Gauquelin studies, as well as
personal experience, in this belief.
My brother's E is within 6o of the IC, the moon could be read either way, 4th or 5th.
edit; actually, E influences my brother's 5th house anyway because h is on the cusp, whatever house system
is used.
I think we've come full circle and just proved Sunsag's original point anyway. Though I'm sure you'll think ofsomething else to argue, along the lines of one or both of us are just not getting it.

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language

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #25 - on: 29.09.2009 at 12:14 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 29.09.2009 at 12:01 [UT+1]:
Well, at risk of getting barbed by your 'intellectual superiority' yet again, this just confirms what I've long thought about the housesystems debate.
Which is, I don't really believe in definate house cusps, more that the houses blend one into then next, and planets near the cusp
(wherever it is) influence both houses. This renders particular house systems irrelevant to me. I think the angles are important though,and I am strongly influenced by the Gauquelin studies, as well as personal experience, in this belief.
My brother's

E is within 6o of the IC, the moon could be read either way, 4th or 5th.

The more objective approach is generate 120, ideally crisp, definitions for his Moon, jumble them up and ask
him to pick the 10 that resonate for him, - he may put his Moon in the 9th.
I've yet to be persuaded by these blending 'idea(s)', primarily due to (psychologically) rectifying charts on thebasis of which house a planet seems to be functioning in.
BTW I'm no intellectual, au contraire - today I'm struggling with the relationship between french and english
verbs - nasty!!
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #26 - on: 29.09.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1] »Language Quote:
I was wondering if one or two of the questions might have elicited a more resonant response, as it is based on these 5 I would say wehave a touch more 'evidence' for it being in the 4th.

I don't think you have much evidence either way. I prefer checking against events for assessing housepositions of natal planets. I also prefer using the angles in some method, especially the Ascendant
descendant axis which is the place where the heavens come to earth or touch the earth, and which to me isthe place which best sums up the idea behind astrology (as above so below).
Quote:Whats the thinking behind the mural?

I painted the nursery walls for my grandchild then came home and just got the urge to play around with
our lounge area. Just wanted to expand the room and give it a relaxing holiday feel. Nothing that couldn't
be changed with a coat or two of paint if I got sick of it.
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Room_painting.jpg (attachment deleted)
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language

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #27 - on: 29.09.2009 at 16:17 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 29.09.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Language Quote:
I was wondering if one or two of the questions might have elicited a more resonant response, as it is based on these 5 I
would say we have a touch more 'evidence' for it being in the 4th.

I don't think you have much evidence either way. I prefer checking against events for assessing house positions of natal planets. I alsoprefer using the angles in some method, especially the Ascendant descendant axis which is the place where the heavens come to earth ortouch the earth, and which to me is the place which best sums up the idea behind astrology (as above so below).
Quote:Whats the thinking behind the mural?
I painted the nursery walls for my grandchild then came home and just got the urge to play around with our lounge area. Just wanted to
expand the room and give it a relaxing holiday feel. Nothing that couldn't be changed with a coat or two of paint if I got sick of it.

When people enter do you drape a ring of flowers around them.... The mural symbolises the conundrum here
the urge to 'create' (5th) something in the home (4th). Here both a touch shocking, Venus in the 9th, yet atouch conventional (capricorn) albeit fitting a more european at least 70's aesthetic.
More seriously well even if you'd answered all the ?'s I for one wouldn't be satisfied, someone with forensic
astro observational skills needs to be observing where your 'get up and go' manifests itself.
So I'm assuming to date you haven't been able to find any ''events'' which persuade you conclusively one way
or the other.
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Querian
Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #28 - on: 29.09.2009 at 16:22 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 29.09.2009 at 16:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 29.09.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Language Quote:
I was wondering if one or two of the questions might have elicited a more resonant response, as it is basedon these 5 I would say we have a touch more 'evidence' for it being in the 4th.

I don't think you have much evidence either way. I prefer checking against events for assessing house positions of natal

Posts: 3217
Gender:planets. I also prefer using the angles in some method, especially the Ascendant descendant axis which is the place where
the heavens come to earth or touch the earth, and which to me is the place which best sums up the idea behind astrology(as above so below).
Quote:Whats the thinking behind the mural?
I painted the nursery walls for my grandchild then came home and just got the urge to play around with our lounge area.
Just wanted to expand the room and give it a relaxing holiday feel. Nothing that couldn't be changed with a coat or two ofpaint if I got sick of it.

When people enter do you drape a ring of flowers around them.... The mural symbolises the conundrum here the urge to 'create' (5th)something in the home (4th). Here both a touch shocking, Venus in the 9th, yet a touch conventional (capricorn) albeit fitting a more
european at least 70's aesthetic.
More seriously well even if you'd answered all the ?'s I for one wouldn't be satisfied, someone with forensic astro observational skills
needs to be observing where your 'get up and go' manifests itself.
So I'm assuming to date you haven't been able to find any ''events'' which persuade you conclusively one way or the other.

I don't understand why it can't be both.
I sort of consider planets to be like cardinal energy - the urge
Whereas signs are liked fixed energy - the expression
And houses are like mutable energy - it's hard to know where one begins and one ends.
With that in mind I like to use several house systems since I find there is often an overlap in the area of lifethat the native experiences the planet in question.
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Natasha771

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #29 - on: 29.09.2009 at 16:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Querian on 29.09.2009 at 16:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 29.09.2009 at 16:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 29.09.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Language Quote:
I was wondering if one or two of the questions might have elicited a more resonant response,
as it is based on these 5 I would say we have a touch more 'evidence' for it being in the 4th.

Posts: 914
Gender:I don't think you have much evidence either way. I prefer checking against events for assessing housepositions of natal planets. I also prefer using the angles in some method, especially the Ascendant
descendant axis which is the place where the heavens come to earth or touch the earth, and which to me isthe place which best sums up the idea behind astrology (as above so below).
Quote:Whats the thinking behind the mural?
I painted the nursery walls for my grandchild then came home and just got the urge to play around with ourlounge area. Just wanted to expand the room and give it a relaxing holiday feel. Nothing that couldn't bechanged with a coat or two of paint if I got sick of it.

When people enter do you drape a ring of flowers around them.... The mural symbolises the conundrum here the urge to'create' (5th) something in the home (4th). Here both a touch shocking, Venus in the 9th, yet a touch conventional(capricorn) albeit fitting a more european at least 70's aesthetic.
More seriously well even if you'd answered all the ?'s I for one wouldn't be satisfied, someone with forensic astro
observational skills needs to be observing where your 'get up and go' manifests itself.
So I'm assuming to date you haven't been able to find any ''events'' which persuade you conclusively one way or the other.
I don't understand why it can't be both.
I sort of consider planets to be like cardinal energy - the urge
Whereas signs are liked fixed energy - the expression
And houses are like mutable energy - it's hard to know where one begins and one ends.
With that in mind I like to use several house systems since I find there is often an overlap in the area of life that the native experiences
the planet in question.

I have some support for your point of view, Querian,

I graduated college in May of 2007. At the time, Pluto Rx was conjunct my part of fortune which is in the 9thhouse in Placidus and in the 8th house in Equal. Another thing happened when I graduated - my dad boughtme a car as a graduation present. So I can see how both the 9th house and 8th house was active at the sametime. Could be a coincidence, but I thought it was worth sharing.

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language
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #30 - on: 29.09.2009 at 17:43 [UT+1] »Quote:
I don't understand why it can't be both.
I sort of consider planets to be like cardinal energy - the urge
Whereas signs are liked fixed energy - the expression
And houses are like mutable energy - it's hard to know where one begins and one ends.
With that in mind I like to use several house systems since I find there is often an overlap in the area of life that the native experiences
the planet in question

I'd throw away the modalities thinking, and stick to the what, the how and the where if I was you (and you
want to join in the more normative dialogues).
As to why it can't be both, well if it's both then why can't it 'overlap' everywhere?,,,,,,,,,there's the nub!!
If astrology is vague enough, which it usually is (particulary on forums such as this), then everything can'fit'.Then it doesn't really matter if you use 284 house systems as they will all work perfectly.
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Arihant

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #31 - on: 29.09.2009 at 17:51 [UT+1] »Its not even equal houses...
its novices v/s language
Credible Indeed, Mr Language !

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QuerianMember

Re: Equal houses« Reply #32 - on: 29.09.2009 at 17:54 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 29.09.2009 at 17:43 [UT+1]:
Quote:
I don't understand why it can't be both.
I sort of consider planets to be like cardinal energy - the urge
Whereas signs are liked fixed energy - the expression
And houses are like mutable energy - it's hard to know where one begins and one ends.
With that in mind I like to use several house systems since I find there is often an overlap in the area of life that thenative experiences the planet in question

Posts: 3217
Gender:I'd throw away the modalities thinking, and stick to the what, the how and the where if I was you (and you want to join in the morenormative dialogues).
As to why it can't be both, well if it's both then why can't it 'overlap' everywhere?,,,,,,,,,there's the nub!!
If astrology is vague enough, which it usually is (particulary on forums such as this), then everything can 'fit'.Then iit doesn't really matter
if you use 284 house systems as they will all work perfectly.

It's not modality thinking, it's a metaphor.
I think a system like astrology is one where different methods work for different people. We don't all use theexact same tools and methods, and if we did, astrology would not be associated with Uranus.
You seem like Gemini to me, language. All facts. I like a bit of poetry and magic in my astrology. My Mercury
is in Pisces. Let it all blend together.
I also think that using a natural chart often works, as does a solar chart. So I can say my sun is in the 6th
using Placidus, the 11th using a natural chart, and the 1st using a solar chart. Thinking there is only one right
way to do something is fine if it works for you but I will continue to be flexible.
Different strokes for different folks.

Can't we all just get along?

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language

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #33 - on: 29.09.2009 at 18:11 [UT+1] »Quote:
It's not modality thinking, it's a metaphor.
I think a system like astrology is one where different methods work for different people. We don't all use the exact same tools andmethods, and if we did, astrology would not be associated with Uranus.
You seem like Gemini to me, language. All facts. I like a bit of poetry and magic in my astrology. My Mercury is in Pisces. Let it all blend
together.
I also think that using a natural chart often works, as does a solar chart. So I can say my sun is in the 6th using Placidus, the 11th using anatural chart, and the 1st using a solar chart. Thinking there is only one right way to do something is fine if it works for you but I willcontinue to be flexible.
Different strokes for different folks.

Can't we all just get along? ;No Gemini in my chart and if your Mecury wasn't in Pisces you may have worked this out by now
Different 'astrologies/astrologers' have different aims, objectives and methodologies so inevitably there will be
wide degrees of variance not least historically as 'astrology', as a human construct, is a product of it's culture.
With psychological astrology we are looking for 'precision' thus in the consulting 'lets reveal the teleology by
exploring the unconscious urges, motivations, family inheritance...........' whether ones Mars is in the 4th or 5th
is very important, albeit not always critical.

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QuerianMember

Re: Equal houses« Reply #34 - on: 29.09.2009 at 18:25 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 29.09.2009 at 18:11 [UT+1]:
Quote:
It's not modality thinking, it's a metaphor.
I think a system like astrology is one where different methods work for different people. We don't all use the exact same
tools and methods, and if we did, astrology would not be associated with Uranus.
You seem like Gemini to me, language. All facts. I like a bit of poetry and magic in my astrology. My Mercury is in Pisces.
Let it all blend together.

Posts: 3217
Gender:I also think that using a natural chart often works, as does a solar chart. So I can say my sun is in the 6th using Placidus,
the 11th using a natural chart, and the 1st using a solar chart. Thinking there is only one right way to do something is fine
if it works for you but I will continue to be flexible.
Different strokes for different folks.

Can't we all just get along? ;No Gemini in my chart and if your Mecury wasn't in Pisces you may have worked this out by now
Different 'astrologies/astrologers' have different aims, objectives and methodologies so inevitably there will be wide degrees of variancenot least historically as 'astrology', as a human construct, is a product of it's culture.
With psychological astrology we are looking for 'precision' thus in the consulting 'lets reveal the teleology by exploring the unconscious
urges, motivations, family inheritance...........' whether ones Mars is in the 4th or 5th is very important, albeit not always critical.

Um, everyone has Gemini in their chart.
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QuerianMember

Re: Equal houses« Reply #35 - on: 29.09.2009 at 18:37 [UT+1] »Actually I feel like my moon is in the 12th house even though in all systems except whole sign houses it's in the
11th. That's probably just my irrational Mercury in Pisces thinking though!

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language
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #36 - on: 29.09.2009 at 18:49 [UT+1] »Quote:Um, everyone has Gemini in their chart

Here we are again another example of how we don't share a conceptual understanding of the term 'chart'.
As to your Moon we could do another test,................., but remember Pisces is a water sign so it's a 'Rational'
Mercury you have here!! So the info you take in is rational but it won't stay in your head (thus the detriment)
and can come out in mysterious places...............
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #37 - on: 29.09.2009 at 23:19 [UT+1] »language Quote:
The mural symbolises the conundrum here the urge to 'create' (5th) something in the home (4th). Here both a touch shocking, Venus in
the 9th, yet a touch conventional (capricorn) albeit fitting a more european at least 70's aesthetic.

In Sydney Venus is right on my MC (and 10th equal house cusp), so directly connects with the locality homeaxis.
The room I painted is the lounge where there is also a gas fireplace (5th house), in my home (4th house).
Quote:
someone with forensic astro observational skills needs to be observing where your 'get up and go' manifests itself.
So I'm assuming to date you haven't been able to find any ''events'' which persuade you conclusively one way or the other.

As I pointed out earlier on this thread I link the position of Mars in my chart as being triggered with our firstson.
As for where my get up and go manifests, the most consistent expression other than astrology is in physicalactivity at least during the last few years. But for much of my adult life it has been the pursuit or doing ofwork, although Virgo does fit with both those activities . Especially my drive has been in creative work,
coupled with the the care of children and paying of mortgage . Different eras of my life though would givedifferent emphasis. In my childhood a period of tantrums at home (but that could be Pluto with Saturn in
4th too) . Whichever way you want to see it Mars is conjunct my fifth house cusp natally except with whole
sign houses. I also think Alice has a point about my chart resonating with Australia's, so 5th house iswhere I would place Mars main expression nowadays (but then just to add another factor my relocated chartputs Mars in the 5th not far from the 6th cusp so perhaps it is mainly locality).
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lynnifer
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #38 - on: 30.09.2009 at 00:56 [UT+1] »I have another example to show why I tend to 'blend' houses. I have G in the 8th house in Placidus, and the
9th house in Equal.
G is the most elevated planet in my chart, and it aspects every other planet, including the nodes.
My G return was very intense, as you would imagine. I met someone who had no money, fell in love, got
pregnant, had two miscarriages, then fell pregnant with my son. There were many arguments about money,
trust issues re; fidelity and money. I was supporting him for about 18mths through that time, much talk aboutbusiness. So all 8th house stuff. But this all took place in a foreign country, my boyfriend spoke limited english,
I was trying to adjust to an entirely antithetical culture to the one I was raised in. I actually arrived in this new
country on the day of the first of three GmG.
Over the years I have tried to weigh which house seems more accurate, and I can't. Even this last year, I have
had GnG. I didn't go to a foreign country, but I have been through financial loss and the breakdown of myrelationship, many problems around being supported by my partner and that was no longer going to work,
sexual issues etc. However, throughout all this drama I have been studying Astrology, almost obsessively, I havelearned how to use the internet and spend far too many hours escaping my problems there, and just recently
began 'officially' studying for a Diploma.
So go figure! -to use an American expression.
When I first learnt astrology I used the equal house method, so I was used to thinking of G in the 9th, butwhen I started with Placidus it wasn't difficult to see the 8th house stuff at all, so I started thinking of my G as
in the 8th. Lately I can't avoid the fact that both seem to be working at the same time.
So either astrology is all BS, or my thinking is faulty (that one's for you language), or the houses can be
blended.
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Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #39 - on: 30.09.2009 at 02:09 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 30.09.2009 at 00:56 [UT+1]:

G in the 8th house in Placidus, and the 9th house in Equal.
G is the most elevated planet in my chart, and it aspects every other planet, including the nodes.
I have another example to show why I tend to 'blend' houses. I haveMy

G return was very intense, as you would imagine. I met someone who had no money, fell in love, got pregnant, had two

miscarriages, then fell pregnant with my son. There were many arguments about money, trust issues re; fidelity and money. I was
supporting him for about 18mths through that time, much talk about business. So all 8th house stuff. But this all took place in a foreigncountry, my boyfriend spoke limited english, I was trying to adjust to an entirely antithetical culture to the one I was raised in. I actually
arrived in this new country on the day of the first of three

Posts: 914
Gender:GmG.

Over the years I have tried to weigh which house seems more accurate, and I can't. Even this last year, I have had

GnG. I didn't go to aforeign country, but I have been through financial loss and the breakdown of my relationship, many problems around being supported by
my partner and that was no longer going to work, sexual issues etc. However, throughout all this drama I have been studying Astrology,
almost obsessively, I have learned how to use the internet and spend far too many hours escaping my problems there, and just recently
began 'officially' studying for a Diploma.
So go figure! -to use an American expression.

G

When I first learnt astrology I used the equal house method, so I was used to thinking ofin the 9th, but when I started with Placidus it
wasn't difficult to see the 8th house stuff at all, so I started thinking of myas in the 8th. Lately I can't avoid the fact that both seemG

to be working at the same time.
So either astrology is all BS, or my thinking is faulty (that one's for you language), or the houses can be blended.

Great story

I concur!

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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #40 - on: 30.09.2009 at 02:51 [UT+1] »Thanks CancerLadie, it was your example earlier in the thread that inspired me to add my own.

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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #41 - on: 30.09.2009 at 03:44 [UT+1] »Yes Lynnifer I also agree that different houses systems can apply simultaneously. Your 8th /9th house
experience demonstrates that.
I think the way to be accurate is to apply key works carefully. Stay within the key word meanings and theresulting interpretation should be relevant with any viable house system. I find this so with Equal House andPlacidean also seems to work, and I expect most others will too particularly as there are often only small
differences between them anyway. I don't believe one system must be wrong for another to apply so long as
you follow the key words or essential meanings, because a person's circumstances can be described inmany ways.
An astrological house is a symbol for many things not one thing.

The 4th house could be the home, or

one's home country, or a parent, or one's most private place such as a bedroom for that matter, or the endof life, so one's grave or ancestor's graves even... while the fifth house could be one's children, or hobbies,
or a sporting arena, or a party, or one's lounge room, or a romance.... which of the many potential
meanings that gets triggered
stage of one's life.

can vary and several of the meanings may well be relevant at any time or

The technique of using key words provides a structure that should enable an accurate interpretation to beconstructed. It doesn't mean only one possible interpretation, we are dealing with symbols that are open
ended. Nor does it exclude the possibility of there being many other ways to assess and describe the chart orinterpret it.
Perhaps the real issue is in the significance of the various house systems, such as: are they earth based or
ecliptic based? time based or space based? and what does that represent in terms of manifestation (earth
based?) or intent (ecliptic-solar based?) etc.. and whether in fact such distinctions are meaningful.
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language
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #42 - on: 30.09.2009 at 12:38 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 30.09.2009 at 00:56 [UT+1]:

G in the 9th, but when I started with Placidus it
G as in the 8th. Lately I can't avoid the fact that both seem

When I first learnt astrology I used the equal house method, so I was used to thinking of
wasn't difficult to see the 8th house stuff at all, so I started thinking of myto be working at the same time.

So either astrology is all BS, or my thinking is faulty (that one's for you language), or the houses can be blended.

So lets play with saturn here and explore the ''blending faulty bullshit'', thinking of your 'fears; are theseconcerned with:meaninglessness:being intruded upon:bondage to routine:being invaded
choose none or all or some - comme tu veux!
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lynnifer

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #43 - on: 30.09.2009 at 13:07 [UT+1] »You're like a dog with a bone language.
OK....
:meaninglessness -no I don't fear it, I do have some kind of irrational faith in meaning. However I have a iB,
and FmK. But to complicate things further, these both o G:being intruded upon -yes, definately, sends me running for the hills, emotionally:bondage to routine -yes a bit, but the iB is in the 6th, so I kind of need it too, constant friction there:being invaded -yes, absolutely, also has me running
So does this mean that Placidus is the right system, and the 9th housey stuff is due to my B and K? Because
5o away from G is N in my 9th and both are in l, and I wonder how that changes things?
Sunsag said;
Quote:An astrological house is a symbol for many things not one thing. The 4th house could be the home, or one's home country, or a parent, or
one's most private place such as a bedroom for that matter, or the end of life, so one's grave or ancestor's graves even... while the fifthhouse could be one's children, or hobbies, or a sporting arena, or a party, or one's lounge room, or a romance.... which of the manypotential meanings that gets triggered can vary and several of the meanings may well be relevant at any time or stage of one's life.

and I find this the single most frustrating thing about natal chart interpretation as well as prediction. 8thhouse; death, transformation, birth, intimacy, sex, shared resources and a few other randoms.......do all ofthem have to fit all the time, and if not when some and not others and why?
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #44 - on: 30.09.2009 at 14:30 [UT+1] »Quote:and I find this the single most frustrating thing about natal chart interpretation as well as prediction. 8th house; death, transformation,birth, intimacy, sex, shared resources and a few other randoms.......do all of them have to fit all the time, and if not when some and notothers and why?

That's the nature of dealing with symbols, they are open ended. If everything was cut and dried it wouldn't
be a symbol, it would be a certainty and you could pick one word to describe it and be right all the time.
Remember a chart can be done for a ship's launch for a given time and place and that same chart will also
apply to a human child born in the vicinity at the same time, or any event that occurs then. The boat thechild and the event will obviously all be different. So for a start you need to know what you are applying
the chart to and look for appropriate possibilities. So too with individual people's charts, start with what ismost appropriate to what you know about that person that fits the keywords; and is appropriate also to theprogressions, transits, (solar or lunar returns too) etc occurring in the chart.
In any caseastrology is full of surprises, and often things will work out in a way consistent with keyword

meanings but quite differently to what you may expect or assume, and especially so if you have not looked atlots of charts and methods and become familiar with how they actually worked out.
The 8th house is emphasized in my chart by the Sun, Jupiter and Mercury. In my experience with the 8thhouse I think when it is emphasized one may well find demands are made on them or their resources. On
some occasions when Jupiter has been favourably connected I have received tax returns. On anotheroccasion when expecting good luck a son damaged my car and instead it cost me several thousand dollars.
My mistake was allowing him to use the car at a time when I should have exercised more control over it.
The potential for a chart to work out can depend on how much scope a person gives it, how vulnerable they
make themself to accidents, rash decisions, carelessness, or allowing others to affect their circumstances.
How much of their assets or personal power they entrust to others.
The 8th house also relates to natural cyclic processes which is why birth and death arecited.

When eventsoccur that fall into those meanings you may find planets in the 8th house and also Pluto are strongly orclosely aspected. However just finding them aspected does not necessarily mean you will know for surewhich of those events will occur, if any. Just as when you cut yourself severely and blood is shed, then mars
will be involved. But having Mars aspected does not necessarily mean you will cut yourself. It does suggest
you take care.
I think it is a good thing we do not know exactly what will happen, that there is flexibility and the worst
things are usually not foregone certainties. People would be petrified to look at their charts if every
difficult aspect with Mars or Saturn or Pluto affecting the 8th house or its ruler meant someone important tothem would die. Combinations like that may occur many times and relate to other things, other changes or
efforts in their life.. However it is likely when someone important to you does die, some type of
combination of those planets will likely be present.
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language

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #45 - on: 30.09.2009 at 16:18 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 30.09.2009 at 13:07 [UT+1]:

and I find this the single most frustrating thing about natal chart interpretation as well as prediction. 8th house; death, transformation,birth, intimacy, sex, shared resources and a few other randoms.......do all of them have to fit all the time, and if not when some and notothers and why?

Taking out 'birth' why have these terms been associated with the 8th house?
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lynnifer
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #46 - on: 30.09.2009 at 16:41 [UT+1] »Sunsag,Thanks, I do understand what your saying. It is the very malleability of the symbols, and the criss-cross andweaving together of different influences that has me wondering sometimes if I am not just being gullible andtelling myself astrological stories....... I do have these periodic attacks of scepticism. It passes though.
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lynnifer

Ex Member« Reply #47 - on: 30.09.2009 at 16:42 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 30.09.2009 at 16:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from lynnifer on 30.09.2009 at 13:07 [UT+1]:

and I find this the single most frustrating thing about natal chart interpretation as well as prediction. 8th house; death,transformation, birth, intimacy, sex, shared resources and a few other randoms.......do all of them have to fit all the time,and if not when some and not others and why?

Taking out 'birth' why have these terms been associated with the 8th house?

No idea. Can you tell me?
And why did you take out 'birth'?
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Re: Equal houses

QuerianMember« Reply #48 - on: 30.09.2009 at 16:57 [UT+1] »Thanks for you examples, CancerLadie and Lynnifer!
I am reluctant to tell my stories that support Chiron in both the 7th and 8th as they are rather painful but I
have concrete examples from my life, too, supporting both house systems.

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language

Ex Member« Reply #49 - on: 30.09.2009 at 21:06 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 30.09.2009 at 16:42 [UT+1]:[
No idea. Can you tell me?
And why did you take out 'birth'?

I took out 'birth' as its incomprehensible, usually this is linked to the 1st house as this is where we come into
the world.
As to 'no idea', well try and work it out and bear in mind the horoscope is semantic geometry. So the 8th houseis the middle (water) house of the 3rd (no earth) quadrant - the 'relating' quadrant. So what 'Intimate sphere'of life are we in here. Unless the 'grammar ' of the beast is understood I doubt you'll be any the wiser as towhat house Saturn may be in for some time............
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starsspeak
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #50 - on: 30.09.2009 at 21:22 [UT+1] »I use only equal houses for all charts. When a planet is near the cusp of the next house I interpret it asinfluencing both houses, with stress on the subsequent.

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language

Ex Member« Reply #51 - on: 30.09.2009 at 22:05 [UT+1] »Quote:
However when my IAs I pointed out earlier on this thread I link the position of Mars in my chart as being triggered with our first son.
As for where my get up and go manifests, the most consistent expression other than astrology is in physical activity at least during thelast few years. But for much of my adult life it has been the pursuit or doing of work, although Virgo does fit with both those activities .
Especially my drive has been in creative work, coupled with the the care of children and paying of mortgage . Different eras of my life
though would give different emphasis. In my childhood a period of tantrums at home (but that could be Pluto with Saturn in 4th too) .
Whichever way you want to see it Mars is conjunct my fifth house cusp natally except with whole sign houses. I also think Alice has a point
about my chart resonating with Australia's, so 5th house is where I would place Mars main expression nowadays (but then just to add
another factor my relocated chart puts Mars in the 5th not far from the 6th cusp so perhaps it is mainly locality ).

Quote:IC progressed to the place of my natal mars my wife became pregnant with our first son. (January/feb 1977), and subsequently wemarried. A child is a 5th house matter.
Interestingly the Solar return for that period put the SR Ascendant exactly on my natal Mars for the location we were living in at that time
(Melbourne) - I do precession corrected Solar Returns - and that is an indication that a 5th house event ( a child as it turned out) would be
the salient influence that year

Ok I found this from earlier but couldn't quite work out what your 'thinking' was, (although bear in mind myastrological thinking isn't as 'literal' as yours, e.g the 5th house is about your attitude to children/pro-creation
not really indicating when and if they may appear). But the IC progressing over a 5th house Mars could equally,
seems to me, say something about how this has radical implications for your domestic sphere. Your natal Mars
here is now in your 4th progressed house presumably. ??
As to your get up and go, well with Aries rising this should be a leitmotif in your life and suggest you are
unlikely to have much of a sedentary existence but Mars, not least as for you it's the ruling planet, should tell
us something crucial, by house, as to what spheres of life your 'substantial' energy (fire sun as well) releases
itself into. Although it may be a little unsavoury for a Libra Moon, a 5th house Mars is a subjective beast andsuggests your acts of will, assertions and passions may have more of a subjective and perhaps selfish flavour(such as dabbling with the stars) than your conscious of ?? (nb- in Psychological astrology the main function ofMars is to work for the Sun in its whatever they are, here sag, goals, aspirations, directions, raison d'etres andso on.
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lynnifer
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #52 - on: 01.10.2009 at 00:28 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 30.09.2009 at 21:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from lynnifer on 30.09.2009 at 16:42 [UT+1]:[
No idea. Can you tell me?
And why did you take out 'birth'?

I took out 'birth' as its incomprehensible, usually this is linked to the 1st house as this is where we come into the world.
As to 'no idea', well try and work it out and bear in mind the horoscope is semantic geometry. So the 8th house is the middle (water)house of the 3rd (no earth) quadrant - the 'relating' quadrant. So what 'Intimate sphere' of life are we in here. Unless the 'grammar ' ofthe beast is understood I doubt you'll be any the wiser as to what house Saturn may be in for some time............

Not my own birth, but the birthing of babies, or a new life or project or way of being.
As for the rest, still no idea what your talking about, and since I'm not at school and your not theteacher......I'll probably get the information elsewhere.
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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #53 - on: 01.10.2009 at 00:45 [UT+1] »language Quote:(although bear in mind my astrological thinking isn't as 'literal' as yours, e.g the 5th house is about your attitude to children/pro-creation
not really indicating when and if they may appear).

So much of astrology is fuzzy or subjective that I look for what is triggered at the time tangible eventsoccur. Having my natal Mars on natal 5th cusp being emphasized by the Solar return Ascendant is a strong
marker for the year my first was born, and an indication that the 5th house placing of Mars is a valid
position.
Also having my progressed IC pass over natal Mars during the year was another powerful indication of thatevent, bringing my home base and my fifth house Mars together. There were several significant events
during that year, two changes of jobs and home addresses and ultimately a change of country. Throughout
much of that time my partner was pregnant and we married and brought a child home.
That year when I married my progressed Ascendant aligned exactly with natal north node opposite
progressed Moon and progressed Chiron on Descendant, exactly square my progressed Saturn in Leo (onEqual House 4th).
When my son was born my progressed Moon was at 28 degrees Scorpio, this is right on the cusp of my 8thhouse using Equal Houses. (My Ascendant is 28 Aries). My wife's Sun is also at 28 Scorpio (natally).
Quote:
But the IC progressing over a 5th house Mars could equally, seems to me, say something about how this has radical implications for yourdomestic sphere. Your natal Mars here is now in your 4th progressed house presumably. ??

IC progressing over Mars probably also showed the severing of job (opposite MC) and home base whenchanged countries. New management came in to the Ad Agency and "fired" the Creative Director and staff
he had hired including me, and replaced us with their own people. As I mentioned in an earlier post there
can be more than one meaning and interpretation to an astrological position depending on what yourperspective is or what you are interested in.
My natal Mars was then going into the 3rd progressed house (travelled back to my home country?).
Those progressed charts were all based on my birth location which seems to be better for progressions thanusing the relocatedposition. Mars is now

entering my progressed 2nd house.

However this might not be the case now that I have been living for many years in Sydney. My relocatedprogressed chart for Sydney puts progressed Mars one degree from my Equal House 4th cusp (square prog
Ascendant) and we are about to have our floor boards ripped up and and new ones put in. Incidentally
along with of my own grown children we now have grand children often in our home.
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language
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #54 - on: 01.10.2009 at 11:01 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 01.10.2009 at 00:28 [UT+1]:
Not my own birth, but the birthing of babies, or a new life or project or way of being.
As for the rest, still no idea what your talking about, and since I'm not at school and your not the teacher......I'll probably get the
information elsewhere.

Birth means something starting. With astrology this is the rstionale behind Aries/Mars being linked to the firsthouse. It may be this 'birth' idea has been linked to the 8th by someone/sometime as Mars corules/rules/doesn't rule Scorpio/8th house. Other than this I have no idea.
As to the semantics of the mandela well if this isn't understood I'm not sure how anyone can hope tounderstand a chart usefully.
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language

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #55 - on: 01.10.2009 at 11:13 [UT+1] »Hi Sun SAG
Well I won't paste the above again, but it seems to me there is little for me at least to go on in terms of'events' to suggest Mars is in the 4th or 5th (or even 6th) house.
However I think it's clear we disagree on its need to be in one or the other so there we are for now..................
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #56 - on: 01.10.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 01.10.2009 at 11:01 [UT+1]:

Birth means something starting. With astrology this is the rstionale behind Aries/Mars being linked to the first house. It may be this 'birth'
idea has been linked to the 8th by someone/sometime as Mars co-rules/rules/doesn't rule Scorpio/8th house. Other than this I have no
idea.

As to the semantics of the mandela well if this isn't understood I'm not sure how anyone canhope to understand a chart usefully.

I'll manage, thanks.
Birth is a metaphor for transformation. Childbirth is a transformative experience. Childbirth is a primal
experience. Birth is part of the cycle of life, as in; birth-death-rebirth. I think there is an 8th house element
there.
In The Rulership Book, by Rex E Bills, he puts birth under the rulership of Pluto.
If birth always comes under a/1st house in your semantic mandela, does death come under l/12th house?
I do see your point, language, but I also think there's more than one way of looking at things. Or maybe I've
just got too much mutablility going on.

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #57 - on: 01.10.2009 at 12:14 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 01.10.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 01.10.2009 at 11:01 [UT+1]:

Birth means something starting. With astrology this is the rstionale behind Aries/Mars being linked to the first house. It
may be this 'birth' idea has been linked to the 8th by someone/sometime as Mars co-rules/rules/doesn't rule Scorpio/8thhouse. Other than this I have no idea.

As to the semantics of the mandela well if this isn't understood I'm not sure howanyone can hope to understand a chart usefully.

I'll manage, thanks.
Birth is a metaphor for transformation. Childbirth is a transformative experience. Childbirth is a primal experience. Birth is part of thecycle of life, as in; birth-death-rebirth. I think there is an 8th house element there.
In The Rulership Book, by Rex E Bills, he puts birth under the rulership of Pluto.
If birth always comes undera/1st house in your semantic mandela, does death come under l/12th house?

I do see your point, language, but I also think there's more than one way of looking at things. Or maybe I've just got too much mutablility
going on.

It seems very clear to me, J h and 8th house and the Phoenix Rising from the Ashes, rebirth.
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language
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #58 - on: 01.10.2009 at 13:39 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 01.10.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1]:
I'll manage, thanks.
Birth is a metaphor for transformation. Childbirth is a transformative experience. Childbirth is a primal experience. Birth is part of thecycle of life, as in; birth-death-rebirth. I think there is an 8th house element there.
In The Rulership Book, by Rex E Bills, he puts birth under the rulership of Pluto.
If birth always comes undera/1st house in your semantic mandela, does death come under l/12th house?

I do see your point, language, but I also think there's more than one way of looking at things. Or maybe I've just got too much mutablility
going on.

I'm unfamilar with Bills book, sounds as though he's spinnng a radical Plutonian narrative here, does he outline
any semantic geometrical thinking(s) within it?
As to death well it's a curio isn't it. The old fellows put it in the 8th, or is it 4th, not as far as I'm aware the12th (nb - i'm not one of those folks who thinks a persons 'death' can be predicted or even delineated). Somemoderns talk about the 12th as describing conditions pre-birth, i.e the womb, no doubt influenced by its
piscean /neptunian associations.
But death can happen anytime after someone is born, whereas birth is an event you will only experience once!
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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #59 - on: 01.10.2009 at 14:09 [UT+1] »language Quote:whereas birth is an event you will only experience once

Now who is being literal?

I do think a person can be born again in a symbolic sense.

Quote:
Birth means something starting.

I think life starts well before birth,which is another stage and another start.

To me the 8th house isconnected to the process of birth; and to natural cyclic processes that are often hidden or not visible, themystery of life, the actual fertilisation and blending of the product of the two sexes, the shared resources thatmake the new life; whereas Aries/libra is the coming together as represented by the penetration (Aries) andthe fitting together (Libra) as a blade into a sheath. The actual orgasm and release and fusion of genetic
material I think is Scorpionic. If one breaks it down further then the penetration of the egg cell wall by
the sperm is probably ruled by Aries but the sharing of the genetic material is Scorpionic/8th house.
Death and decomposition and the return of of the material and reuse or recycling of it into new forms is
Scorpionic and 8th house to me and is part of the natural cyclic processes.
being productive.

Scorpio is essentially about

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #60 - on: 01.10.2009 at 14:37 [UT+1] »Quote:
I'm unfamilar with Bills book, sounds as though he's spinnng a radical Plutonian narrative here, does he outline any semantic geometricalthinking(s) within it?

Oh, it's a very handy reference book! No radical Plutonian spinning at all. Just rulerships, listed alphabetically in
4 categories; *General words, things or concepts and what rules them, *Planets and what they rule, *Signs andwhat they rule and *Houses and what they rule.
It was first published in 1971.
Quote:As to death well it's a curio isn't it. The old fellows put it in the 8th, or is it 4th, not as far as I'm aware the 12th (nb - i'm not one ofthose folks who thinks a persons 'death' can be predicted or even delineated). Some moderns talk about the 12th as describing conditions
pre-birth, i.e the womb, no doubt influenced by its piscean /neptunian associations.

I have no interest in predicting anyone's death, just in how death, in all it's manifestations, affects people andtheir lives.
Quote:
But death can happen anytime after someone is born, whereas birth is an event you will only experience once!

Well presumably we only experience death once too....but death and birth are experiences we have through life,
watching the family dog give birth to puppies, death of a grandparent, birth of a child, death of a spouse, etc..
My point though, is that birth, sex, death are all primal experiences that belong to the 8th house. I'm notinclined to separate birth out from the pack. Although obviously the ascendant represents the first moments oflife, and therefore the circumstances of the birth of the chart owner.
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language

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #61 - on: 01.10.2009 at 14:39 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 01.10.2009 at 14:09 [UT+1]:
language Quote:whereas birth is an event you will only experience once

Now who is being literal? I do think a person can be born again in a symbolic sense.
Quote:
Birth means something starting.

I think life starts well before birth, which is another stage and another start. To me the 8th house is connected to the process of birth; andto natural cyclic processes that are often hidden or not visible, the mystery of life, the actual fertilisation and blending of the product of
the two sexes, the shared resources that make the new life; whereas Aries/libra is the coming together as represented by the penetration(Aries) and the fitting together (Libra) as a blade into a sheath. The actual orgasm and release and fusion of genetic material I think is
Scorpionic. If one breaks it down further then the penetration of the egg cell wall by the sperm is probably ruled by Aries but the sharingof the genetic material is Scorpionic/8th house.
Death and decomposition and the return of of the material and reuse or recycling of it into new forms is Scorpionic and 8th house to me
and is part of the natural cyclic processes. Scorpio is essentially about being productive.

I'm just using the normative thinking as to childbirth here, I don't know about you but I'm ok with the idea I
was once in my mothers womb before 'Mars' said get me out of here I want to get the show started. Plus I
doubt I've gone through the same rigmarole before or will again. Common sense literalism here, I'm amonkey!!
Astrology does raise some more esoteric ideas, i.e why this mandela for me, but straying to far away from the'real world' is not my fate!
So what semantic mandela are you employing here, can you go through the whole chart with your naturalistic
psychological musings?
For me Scorpio comes after Libra. Libra is where we meet the other and Scorpio is where you get intimate withthe other. But we are talking here about more 'human' relating, whereas pro-creation tends to be linked to thesun/moon and the keeping of the species going, which is a bit more organic, and perhaps why these urges havebeen associated earlier on in the circle with Cancer and Leo.
I wonder if some of this birth/death thinking is a bit confused with the origins and thinking of the Thema Mundi
as opposed to the personal nativity, i.e Cancer starts the world of but Aries starts the human life of, but these
are random thoughts I've had over the yrs which would need a bit of firming up.
Scorpio is about being productive - what do you mean??, isn't this term a touch more 'earthy'.
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language
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #62 - on: 01.10.2009 at 14:56 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 01.10.2009 at 14:37 [UT+1]:
Quote:
I'm unfamilar with Bills book, sounds as though he's spinnng a radical Plutonian narrative here, does he outline any
semantic geometrical thinking(s) within it?

Oh, it's a very handy reference book! No radical Plutonian spinning at all. Just rulerships, listed alphabetically in 4 categories; *Generalwords, things or concepts and what rules them, *Planets and what they rule, *Signs and what they rule and *Houses and what they rule.
It was first published in 1971.
Quote:As to death well it's a curio isn't it. The old fellows put it in the 8th, or is it 4th, not as far as I'm aware the 12th (nb - i'm
not one of those folks who thinks a persons 'death' can be predicted or even delineated). Some moderns talk about the12th as describing conditions pre-birth, i.e the womb, no doubt influenced by its piscean /neptunian associations.

I have no interest in predicting anyone's death, just in how death, in all it's manifestations, affects people and their lives.
Quote:
But death can happen anytime after someone is born, whereas birth is an event you will only experience once!
Well presumably we only experience death once too....but death and birth are experiences we have through life, watching the family dog
give birth to puppies, death of a grandparent, birth of a child, death of a spouse, etc..
My point though, is that birth, sex, death are all primal experiences that belong to the 8th house. I'm not inclined to separate birth out
from the pack. Although obviously the ascendant represents the first moments of life, and therefore the circumstances of the birth of thechart owner.

If he'd wriiten this tome in 1871 he may have spun it differently.
So lets make your 8th house your ascendent what house is saturn in now, does it work better?
The 8th house in Psychological Astrology isn't 'primal' as its in the 3rd quadrant, the 'relating sphere', and is
the 2nd water sign. So we are getting quite civilised, albeit a bit 'intense', by this stage of the cycle.
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lynnifer

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #63 - on: 01.10.2009 at 15:07 [UT+1] »Yeah, well we'll have to part ways here, 'cause that sounds like a crock of the proverbial to me.
I do vaguely get all this psychological semantic mandela stuff your going on about, it just holds no interest forme. It's too theoretical and abstract, and I fail to see how it helps anyone. Other than very, very clever people
with a lot of time on their hands to sit around ruminating about stuff.....while life goes on elsewhere.
I'm getting fidgety now..........analyse that.
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language
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #64 - on: 01.10.2009 at 15:59 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 01.10.2009 at 15:07 [UT+1]:
Yeah, well we'll have to part ways here, 'cause that sounds like a crock of the proverbial to me.
I do vaguely get all this psychological semantic mandela stuff your going on about, it just holds no interest for me. It's too theoretical andabstract, and I fail to see how it helps anyone. Other than very, very clever people with a lot of time on their hands to sit aroundruminating about stuff.....while life goes on elsewhere.
I'm getting fidgety now..........analyse that.

The idea of the 'psychological stuff' is it brings astrology into the ''real world'' away from the vague theoreticalesoteric/theosophical ether, i,e what does the chart tell us about the lives we actually lead here from birth tomaturity to death and does this symbolic system aid us in our adaptations to our environments. I wouldn't
describe it as intellectual but a psychological education/background might be a bit of a pre-requisite.
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Amy CEx Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #65 - on: 01.10.2009 at 16:02 [UT+1] »I think 8th / Pluto is associated with sex, death and REbirth / regeneration.
When two individuals conceive a child they are rebirthing themselves. This child will hold all the secrets ofgenerations before him. The child will act out the parents unconscious motives for the parent to observe. The
child will be in the image of the parents waving the parents unconscious like a flag. It's interesting that mosthave a child just before midlife, which signals the decline towards death. The child will be the phoenix that rises
from his / her ashes.
Astrologically Pluto is called "the great renewer", and is considered to represent the part of a person that
destroys in order to renew, through bringing buried, but intense, needs and drives to the surface

Any person who's had a child, and is even slightly conscious, will know how the above quote might relate toconception.
Also about shared resource and investment.
When two individuals share a resource of a child. Ask an El Salvadorian, living in the mountains, why theychoose to have 8 children in a poor country...to take care of them in old age and their land...the more thebetter. Children are seen as a valuable resource. Life wasn't always about retirement funds. Investments werecounted in acres, sheep and children.
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VivishaEx Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #66 - on: 01.10.2009 at 22:07 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 01.10.2009 at 14:09 [UT+1]:

I think life starts well before birth, which is another stage and another start. To me the 8th house is connected to the process of birth; andto natural cyclic processes that are often hidden or not visible, the mystery of life, the actual fertilisation and blending of the product of
the two sexes, the shared resources that make the new life; whereas Aries/libra is the coming together as represented by the penetration(Aries) and the fitting together (Libra) as a blade into a sheath. The actual orgasm and release and fusion of genetic material I think is
Scorpionic. If one breaks it down further then the penetration of the egg cell wall by the sperm is probably ruled by Aries but the sharingof the genetic material is Scorpionic/8th house.
Death and decomposition and the return of of the material and reuse or recycling of it into new forms is Scorpionic and 8th house to me
and is part of the natural cyclic processes. Scorpio is essentially about being productive.

Hi SSML,i really like what you say here. It makes perfect sense to me. With regard to scorpio being productive i
immediately thought reproductive which im guessing is what you intended anyway as you talk about recycling,
reusing etc.
Amy C i really like your take as well. and yes as a mother i do relate to what you wrote and i like your take onchildren being a shared resource.
More generally with regard to house systems i use equal. I tried Placidus on for size. I could make no sense of itwith regard to me. Strangely i didn't trust it which is a weird thing to think but the truth all the same. Itchanges my chart quite significantly so i would also struggle to see how the overlap of systems is viable. That
doesn't mean i disregard it as a system. i'd like to see how it could be made to work for me. The different
house systems have always been a bone of contention with me. I always found it to be the one area where ibegan to experience doubt in astrology. I would think: well how can it be one thing and then another because
essentially (for me at least) i have two very different charts in terms of house emphasis. So like Lynnifer i
wondered at the value of astrology. The idea that different house systems work better according to differing
latitudes went a long way to reconciling that issue for me. As did the idea that bottom line, "aspects are theguts of the chart". Not withstanding how many very good astrologers on here and elsewhere use placidus
effectively. I ask myself well how could they be wrong? I don't think they are. So....at best i have reached anuneasy truce within myself on the whole issue.
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lynnifer

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #67 - on: 02.10.2009 at 00:24 [UT+1] »I'm not sure where your born Vivisha, but I would be interested in hearing from anyone born at an extreme
latitude. Because when I see these charts, with very wide, and very tiny houses I often baulk, and feel inclined
to super-impose the equal house system on it. Can anyone with this kind of chart say whether equal houses
give more accurate info?
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #68 - on: 02.10.2009 at 10:49 [UT+1] »Quote:
With regard to scorpio being productive i immediately thought reproductive which im guessing is what you intended anyway as you talkabout recycling, reusing etc.

Hi Vivisha, yes reproductive but also productive, Scorpio seeks to perpetuate, and likes to be productive or
producing something. Reproduction is of course the obvious expression. These are keywords I associate with
Scorpio:persevering, producing, productively, persistently, repetitively, monotonously, stubbornly, penetrating,probing, deeply, icily, intensely, magnetically, convincing, emotionally, regeneratively, creatively, secretly,
concealed, hidden, purposefully, intentionally, analytically, perceptively, jealously, resentfully, destructively,
suspiciously, forensically, ecstatically, investigating, detecting, seedily, cyclically, seasonly, naturally, stormily,
gravely, deathly, decomposing, liquidating, eliminating, procreative, inseminating, rebirthing, resourcefully.
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chatcat

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #69 - on: 02.10.2009 at 11:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Alvaro Fdez on 27.09.2009 at 23:07 [UT+1]:
SunSagMoonLib,
Is really any difference regarding a reading? I'm asking because I don't know

Posts: 1967
Gender:With some people the house system does change a position of a planet in a house. I am one of those that it
does not affect to any great degree.
I think with time and experience and watching the effects of progressions and transits we can discern which isvalid.

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chatcat
Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #70 - on: 02.10.2009 at 11:33 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 02.10.2009 at 10:49 [UT+1]:
Quote:
With regard to scorpio being productive i immediately thought reproductive which im guessing is what you intended anyway
as you talk about recycling, reusing etc.

Posts: 1967
Gender:

Hi Vivisha, yes reproductive but also productive, Scorpio seeks to perpetuate, and likes to be productive or producing something.
Reproduction is of course the obvious expression. These are keywords I associate with Scorpio:
persevering, producing, productively, persistently, repetitively, monotonously, stubbornly, penetrating, probing, deeply, icily, intensely,
magnetically, convincing, emotionally, regeneratively, creatively, secretly, concealed, hidden, purposefully, intentionally, analytically,
perceptively, jealously, resentfully, destructively, suspiciously, forensically, ecstatically, investigating, detecting, seedily, cyclically,seasonly, naturally, stormily, gravely, deathly, decomposing, liquidating, eliminating, procreative, inseminating, rebirthing, resourcefully.

I think reproduction is more apt rather than production. Scorpio very often destroys and from the remains
comes something reborn, renovated, recycled, reborn, recreated.
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chatcat

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #71 - on: 02.10.2009 at 11:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Amy C on 01.10.2009 at 16:02 [UT+1]:
I think 8th / Pluto is associated with sex, death and REbirth / regeneration.
When two individuals conceive a child they are rebirthing themselves. This child will hold all the secrets of generations before him. The
child will act out the parents unconscious motives for the parent to observe. The child will be in the image of the parents waving thePosts: 1967
Gender:parents unconscious like a flag. It's interesting that most have a child just before midlife, which signals the decline towards death. The
child will be the phoenix that rises from his / her ashes.
Astrologically Pluto is called "the great renewer", and is considered to represent the part of a person that destroys in order to renew,
through bringing buried, but intense, needs and drives to the surface

Any person who's had a child, and is even slightly conscious, will know how the above quote might relate to conception.
Also about shared resource and investment.
When two individuals share a resource of a child. Ask an El Salvadorian, living in the mountains, why they choose to have 8 children in apoor country...to take care of them in old age and their land...the more the better. Children are seen as a valuable resource. Life wasn't
always about retirement funds. Investments were counted in acres, sheep and children.

As an 8th house stellium person I would say that orgasm and the "little death" of sexual relations belongs here.
It is the transformative effect of sex that belongs here. The Sun, Leo and the 5th are the areas of the raising of
an individual to become themselves, education etc. as a creation from the expression of romantic love which
also belongs here. Conception belongs to the 8th as usually the male at least needs to orgasm to produce thesperm that fertilizes the woman's egg.
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chatcatMember

Re: Equal houses« Reply #72 - on: 02.10.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1] »The whole point is that we do not die. Just change form and go to another plane of existence. So everyone
who is born is essentially reborn, reincarnated, in my experience and in my belief and in that way the issue
belongs to the 8th. Actual physical birth does belong to the 1st, Mars and Aries as a beginning.

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Gnostic

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #73 - on: 02.10.2009 at 12:04 [UT+1] »Well ASC b and d can have equal House system since they are Zhnas whetever you Drugs(Non Zhnas) like itor not.
ASC b+MC j has

ASC d+MC j has

1st House bc
2nd House cd

1st House d
2nd House d

3rd House d
4th House de
5th House ef

3rd House d
4th House e
5th House efg

6th House fgh
7th House hi

6th House ghij
7th House j

8th House ij
9th House j
10th House jk

8th House j
9th House j
10th House k

11th House kl
12th House lab

11th House kla
12th House abcd

Now this is a fact which either the Peshotanus(Traitor radical gnostics) or the so called "allmighty" Daevas(Fakegods) can robb from us!
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #74 - on: 02.10.2009 at 12:31 [UT+1] »Gnostic,
I´m born in northern latitudes so my chart has quite unequal houses. I´m working with experimenting
different systems. But I use the rulerships to each house and here´s the main problem. Houses are seen as
where? in the chart. When I think this is it! I found that there´s something wrong again. Not getting it
perfected.
I´m highly interested of everything that concerns this and have followed the discussion here.
May I ask you were´s the astrology, theory, behind that you wrote? My hcope is not exaclty of that withbrising but similar, that´s why I ask.
Thanks,
Bibbe
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #75 - on: 02.10.2009 at 14:44 [UT+1] »Quote:
I think reproduction is more apt rather than production. Scorpio very often destroys and from the remains comes something reborn,renovated, recycled, reborn, recreated.

reproduction is part of it, as are the organs of reproduction, but so is elimination of waste from the bodyand the anus, that is hardly reproduction. But the waste is manure for another cycle. Waste anddecomposing are part of a natural productive cycle. With Scorpio people they may disappear into theirquiet places or niche or cave so to say and work away in private on something eventually to appear with awork of art. Scorpio in many respects is about repetitive, cyclic action , from the repetitive rhythm ofintercourse to the cycle of contractions of the birth process, the falling of leaves that form the mulch that
nourishes new plants, the passing of animal waste back onto the land, the manure itself and so on, it is allpart of the productive Scorpio process, the productive sharing and use of natural resources that perpetuates
another cycle.
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Querian
Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #76 - on: 02.10.2009 at 14:54 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 02.10.2009 at 14:44 [UT+1]:
Quote:
I think reproduction is more apt rather than production. Scorpio very often destroys and from the remains comessomething reborn, renovated, recycled, reborn, recreated.

reproduction is part of it, as are the organs of reproduction, but so is elimination of waste from the body and the anus, that is hardly
reproduction. But the waste is manure for another cycle. Waste and decomposing are part of a natural productive cycle. With Scorpio
people they may disappear into their quiet places or niche or cave so to say and work away in private on something eventually to appear
with a work of art. Scorpio in many respects is about repetitive, cyclic action , from the repetitive rhythm of intercourse to the cycle ofPosts: 3217
Gender:contractions of the birth process, the falling of leaves that form the mulch that nourishes new plants, the passing of animal waste backonto the land, the manure itself and so on, it is all part of the productive Scorpio process, the productive sharing and use of natural
resources that perpetuates another cycle.

i.e. letting go to make room for something new
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Alvaro Fdez

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #77 - on: 02.10.2009 at 17:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Clairevoyante on 02.10.2009 at 11:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from Alvaro Fdez on 27.09.2009 at 23:07 [UT+1]:
SunSagMoonLib,
Is really any difference regarding a reading? I'm asking because I don't knowWith some people the house system does change a position of a planet in a house. I am one of those that it does not affect to any great
degree.
I think with time and experience and watching the effects of progressions and transits we can discern which is valid.

thanks. Tried with regiomontanus and porphyryr and only changed the 2/8 cusps to the previous sign, but still
to see about the transits modifications. I saw changes on my progressed chart using equal houses, but I don't
identify with some positions on it using this system (Sun in the 5th vs. 6th in placidus). I do identify more (forthe equal houses) for solar arc, the Mars position using equal houses "sounds" more to me than using placidus.
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HoraryMystic
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #78 - on: 02.10.2009 at 20:02 [UT+1] »Okay, I'm going to try to jump in and offer some two-cents', on this issue of Equal Houses vs. non-equal(=allother systems). I have Mars and Saturn conjunct in Taurus in my 3rd House, so this is at the risk of sounding
authoritarian.
I use Equal Houses--indeed very simple. You calculate the Ascendant--and all other house cusps fall in thesame degree of each sign as the Ascendant. It somehow seems too simple. However, when you figure thateach cusp makes an exact aspect relation with the Ascendant, it starts to make a lot of sense. Each cusp guides
your awareness of that area of life that it is connected to. Ascendant is your self-awareness.
However, before it starts to seem like I am invalidating other systems, because I am not, let me add in thisnotion. I think that we need to take the center of the Earth into the equation as well. Like many mothers, she
is often taken for granted, as the source for many of our needs, material and fluid. I think we take her for
granted in our astrology as well. Many ancient cultures did not know that she was a sphere, and only tracked
the movements of the planets and stars in their astrology. Now the we know that she is a spheroid, andrevolves and rotates, we must find her position in the chart. Oh we see the ascendant as the product of her
rotation--it is where the horizon line meets the ecliptic. But where is her center located in the chart?? What is
its position in the zodiac, relative to our location??
I am willing to bet that this is the IC, and the Midheaven/MC is her opposite.
I note that all systems use these points, and though I don't know about all systems, they seem to take them ascusps of the 4th & 10th Houses, and this is understandable in light of the hypothesis above. But I am
beginning to see the IC as describing an actual position or location of the home, and its condition. This iswhere we keep our stuff and find our center. Not necessarily the 4th House cusp, but somehow connected to it.
Same goes for the MC--this might describe your actual social position and your post at your workplace.
House systems other than Equal use some really tricky mathematics to calculate the intermediate cusps, andmost of the time their cusps do not form any major aspects to either the Asc or the IC/MC. Whereas theAngles are very definite points of intersection on the ecliptic.
So I am gradually moving towards using the IC as the location of the Earth in Equal House charts.
Anyone had any similar thoughts??
HM
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Querian

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #79 - on: 02.10.2009 at 21:09 [UT+1] »That is very interesting, Horary Mystic. I haven't considered the IC as the location of earth in a chart before. I
did read an article earlier this year in The Mountain Astrologer that proposed the location of the earth in ahoroscope to be 180 degrees from the sun in the chart.
Once people start being born in outer space and on other planets then the location of the earth will really need
to be considered!

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now hereEx Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #80 - on: 02.10.2009 at 22:10 [UT+1] »Hi SSML (or Ed too)
I wonder if you would care to comment on the following:
I heard a radio interview with a couple of scientists who are experts in the field of animal migration which I
found fascinating in many ways. One of which I made a seeming intuitive tie-in to astrology, but maybe you
could verify if there is any basis for this and/or elaborate further.
The discussion involved among other things two major aspects of the migratory process - first, the locationalnavigation; but the other factor which I thought was relevant to a discussion on house systems was about thetiming factor of when different species "decide" to migrate. It seems a major theory involves animals' very
exacting internal circadian clocks - circadian itself a term derived from "circle" and having to do with the major
division of that circle (by Earth's rotation) into day and night - which may relate to your description of the key
elements in formation of the equal house system.
One of the scientists said that the animals are able to determine extremely specific relative levels of light
duration as time progresses as if represented by a sine curve/wave form with cycles of increasing/decreasinglevels of light throughout the year based on fixed increment of the 24 hour circadian rhythm relative toequinoctial cycles. Since the ecliptic is a projection of the Earth's orbit and because of the Earth's tilt which
determines the level and duration of light according to time of year it seems that house system must also be
related to this factor of light availability revealed by the division of this circadian rotation by houses.
This also ties the daily cycle in with larger birth and death cycles, even generationally, and so makes housesystems quite factually relevant based on their geometries - for instance:
Perhaps related - that the distortions of some house systems at extreme latitudes are spatially reflective of areduction in angular momentum relative to circadian movement (@ celestial equator), but is "compensated" forby another movement - that of greater angular differentiation from the ecliptic pole by season. Does this makeany sense? Is this why different house systems are called for in different latitudes, etc? Some would emphasize
daily circadian/equatorial, some would emphasize seasonal/ecliptic even thought they are related - with theequivocation of both obviously being the equinoxes.
How are different house systems applicable or not in terms of equinox (equivocation/balance) vs solstices(extreme/differentiation) - between the daily vs yearly cycles? Or is this what we are already trying to define inother terms?
I would like to know from people knowledgable in these geometries whether these questions/comments arevalid, even if partially/not at all - based on the astronomical facts. SSML, Ed, anyone?
Also I'd like to hear a response to Horary Mystic's proposition as to its validity, or whether in that case there isa "more factual" version.
Any astronomically knowledgable astrologers please comment.....
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Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #81 - on: 02.10.2009 at 22:42 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 02.10.2009 at 10:49 [UT+1]:
Quote:
With regard to scorpio being productive i immediately thought reproductive which im guessing is what you intended anyway
as you talk about recycling, reusing etc.

Hi Vivisha, yes reproductive but also productive, Scorpio seeks to perpetuate, and likes to be productive or producing something.
Reproduction is of course the obvious expression. These are keywords I associate with Scorpio:
persevering, producing, productively, persistently, repetitively, monotonously, stubbornly, penetrating, probing, deeply, icily, intensely,
magnetically, convincing, emotionally, regeneratively, creatively, secretly, concealed, hidden, purposefully, intentionally, analytically,
perceptively, jealously, resentfully, destructively, suspiciously, forensically, ecstatically, investigating, detecting, seedily, cyclically,seasonly, naturally, stormily, gravely, deathly, decomposing, liquidating, eliminating, procreative, inseminating, rebirthing, resourcefully.

Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 02.10.2009 at 14:44 [UT+1]:
reproduction is part of it, as are the organs of reproduction, but so is elimination of waste from the body and the anus, that is hardly
reproduction. But the waste is manure for another cycle. Waste and decomposing are part of a natural productive cycle. With Scorpio
people they may disappear into their quiet places or niche or cave so to say and work away in private on something eventually to appear
with a work of art. Scorpio in many respects is about repetitive, cyclic action , from the repetitive rhythm of intercourse to the cycle ofcontractions of the birth process, the falling of leaves that form the mulch that nourishes new plants, the passing of animal waste backonto the land, the manure itself and so on, it is all part of the productive Scorpio process, the productive sharing and use of natural
resources that perpetuates another cycle.

I can see your point. i'm thinking that your descriptiion of the cyclistic process here is more pertinent to thetauras/scorpio axis than soley scorpio itself. Taurus builds 'methodically', 'persistently', engaging in mundane
tasks that are often 'repetetive' and 'monotonous' with 'persistence' in order to produce something of value.
Scorpio will then tear down that which is not useful, strippng away to the dross ( its relationship to bowel
movements), so that all thats left is what can be enriching. I'm unsure whether that quailfies productive as a
key word for Scorpio ( though iv got no arguement with most all of those you highlighted). When looking at
the Taurus/scorpio relationship ( axis) together however it is without doubt demonstrative of a productive
cycle for generating resources.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #82 - on: 02.10.2009 at 22:48 [UT+1] »Hi Horary Mystic, as I understand it the MC and IC represent the highest and lowest points on the ecliptic(where the meridan circle which goes through the North and South poles cuts the ecliptic). The MC and IC
are not usually the points directly above and below you unless you happen to be on or near the equator when
they are square the Ascendant and thus coincide with the cusps of the Equal House 10th and 4th houses
which are always at the zenith and nadir.
The nadir is the point directly beneath your feet and thus symbolically points to the centre of the earth, so
the zodiac sign at the nadir would I expect represent the direction of the centre of the earth directly in linefrom where you are standing assuming you are standing upright and not walking around with a weird lean.

However I am prepared to be corrected if anyone has the mathematics to prove it otherwise.
The planet Earth itself is considered to be in the zodiacal degree

directly opposite the Sun as Querian has

stated.
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #83 - on: 02.10.2009 at 23:28 [UT+1] »Vivisha Quote:
I can see your point. i'm thinking that your descriptiion of the cyclistic process here is more pertinent to the tauras/scorpio axis than soley
scorpio itself. Taurus builds 'methodically', 'persistently', engaging in mundane tasks that are often 'repetetive' and 'monotonous' with'persistence' in order to produce something of value. Scorpio will then tear down that which is not useful, strippng away to the dross ( itsrelationship to bowel movements), so that all thats left is what can be enriching. I'm unsure whether that quailfies productive as a key
word for Scorpio ( though iv got no arguement with most all of those you highlighted). When looking at the Taurus/scorpio relationship (axis) together however it is without doubt demonstrative of a productive cycle for generating resources.

Hi Vivisha, I agree with what you say about Taurus, both Scorpio and Taurus are fixed signs too and have a
lot in common as well as being polarities, thus part of the same process. Intake and output, Taurus being
more the ingestion , and Scorpio the elimination but also the output or ejaculate, the seeds and thecompost that produce the new cycle that Taurus then builds upon. What is more productive and full of
growth than a fertilised seed? I think the thing about Scorpio is its fertility and drive to be productive, thetremendous productive energy for growth that a seed has, and also that even what is waste by one point ofview is the raw material and riches for another, and part of an ongoing cycle of metamorphosis. Think of
the tremendous productive energy that goes into metamorphosis the Scorpio phases of growth after the
Taurus phases of eating for example that a silk worm or caterpillar goes through. The discarding of the oldshell or skin like a cicada is also Scorpionic but the real effort has gone into making the new form.
(Interestingly the modern ruler of Scorpio, Pluto is known as Hades in Greek myth; this name means "hidden
riches" ... the Planet Pluto - the seed-self or "hidden riches" within).
These are typical keywords I associate with Taurus (yes some are the same as Scorpio):
Taurus: eating, ingesting, swallowing, consuming, fuelling, resisting, acquiring, prosperously , saving,
constructing, building, making, using, practically, steadfastly, unflinchingly, conserving, possessing, cautiously,
stably, deliberately, unoriginally, conventionally, boringly, affectionately, sensually, indulgently, stubbornly,
stodgily, grasping, slavishly, routinely, materially, artistically, productively, ruttishly, slowly, carefully,
economically, musically, sculpturingly, sustainingly, throatily.

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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #84 - on: 03.10.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1] »now here Quote:
The discussion involved among other things two major aspects of the migratory process - first, the locational navigation; but the otherfactor which I thought was relevant to a discussion on house systems was about the timing factor of when different species "decide" tomigrate. It seems a major theory involves animals' very exacting internal circadian clocks - circadian itself a term derived from "circle"
and having to do with the major division of that circle (by Earth's rotation) into day and night - which may relate to your description of the
key elements in formation of the equal house system.

That day night division is at the heart of hellenistic astrology, deciding firstly whether a chart is diurnal or
nocturnal.
I think the 12 house divisions, like the signs, are based on the lunation cycle which is approximately 30
degrees from one moon to the next, and this cycle of Moon being born waxing then waning and dying is like alife cycle itself. But there is no exact repeating matches from year to year of the various Moons in reference
to stars (unless you look at the Metonic cycle). Each new or full moon is in a different position and the
Moon's speed changes month to month as well.
The division of the circle into houses

doesn't have to be 12, it was once 8 I believe, that is possibly reflectiveof the more obvious phases of the Moon. Or one could take lunar mansions, based on the average distancethe moon traverses from night to night, over a month.
But perhaps there is something also in what you say, to do with light and lattitude and natural rhythms andcycles and how they relate to internal cycles. I'm not sure how that would apply, though I would expect
internal cycles are a reflection of outer ones. So there may be a mechanism in there which explains why
people are in lockstep with the outer world and why that may extend to various house divisions assuming
those divisions also reflect the major sun, moon, earth cycles.
I have no idea which specific house systems
would reflect which circadian cycles.
I have read that many insects can navigate by polarised light, and that would show the angle of the Sun
relative to where the insect was, and I think some butterflies use it to migrate. So that would incorporate
lattitude . Perhaps someone else has more to offer on your ideas.
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chatcat

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #85 - on: 03.10.2009 at 10:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Vic DiCara on 29.09.2009 at 03:52 [UT+1]:
I personally prefer whole-sign to equal house or any other system. It is very simple and practical.

Posts: 1967
Gender:Yes it appeals to be my sense of balance and equality with all my Libran planets.
Whatever works for us with experience and observation.

Porphyry is also good.

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #86 - on: 03.10.2009 at 15:03 [UT+1] »Quote from HoraryMystic on 02.10.2009 at 20:02 [UT+1]:
I am willing to bet that this is the IC, and the Midheaven/MC is her opposite.
HM

Actually, the ecliptic intersect of a line from the native to the center of the earth is the equal house 4th cusp
(asc + 90).
- Ed
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #87 - on: 03.10.2009 at 15:11 [UT+1] »Now Here,
The observations you make are at the basis of the semi-arc (Placidus) method. I don't think these observablefacts about the differences between ascensional characteristics at the equator and the poles call for a different
method of house division based on location. You really should read Mike Wackford's series of articles on housedivision. The last two in the series, "Global Horoscopes" go into some depth regarding the relationship of theannual and daily cycles and how they change roles between extreme latitudes and equatorial ones. So it's righton your question. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/polar1.html .
- Ed
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QuerianMember

Re: Equal houses« Reply #88 - on: 03.10.2009 at 17:44 [UT+1] »I do often consider the IC to be the foundation on which a person bases their life experience, for good or for
bad, usually a bit of both.

My only problem is my IC is conjunct Juno and I have no idea how that relates to my life!

Posts: 3217
Gender:This might be a stupid question but when using equal houses the IC is still opposite the MC or is it then thecusp of the 4th house? I notice sometimes in equal houses some people use the 10th house cusp as the MC
and other people put the MC in separate from the house cusps.

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Ed Falis

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #89 - on: 03.10.2009 at 17:54 [UT+1] »With equal houses the IC is only rarely the cusp of the 4th.
- Ed
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #90 - on: 04.10.2009 at 02:46 [UT+1] »Quote:
This might be a stupid question but when using equal houses the IC is still opposite the MC or is it then the cusp of the 4th house? I noticesometimes in equal houses some people use the 10th house cusp as the MC and other people put the MC in separate from the housecusps.

The normal way of doing Equal Houses is to do the houses from the Ascendant. The MC /IC axis is thenmarked in separately from the house cusps, and usually the Midheaven is shown with an arrow cutting thecircumference of the chart. Astrodienst however just uses an M for the Midheaven and places it in thechart as if it were a planet.
An offshoot of the Equal House system is to examine Midheaven issues, and use the Midheaven as the basis
for the chart. In this variation you would put the Midheaven at the tenth cusp, and draw equal houses fromthere, so the cusp of the 1st house would then be square the Mideaven, and the Ascendant/ Descendant
axis would then fall into the houses. This Midheaven variation on equal Houses is not widely used, and issimply a technique such as one might use when doing a Solar sunrise chart where you put the Sun on the
Ascendant. Here you are are putting the Midheaven at the top of the chart and interpreting the chart interms of the Midheaven (thus in terms of career, status and standing in the world).
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Querian

Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #91 - on: 04.10.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1] »Thanks SSML and Ed!

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now hereEx Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #92 - on: 05.10.2009 at 17:36 [UT+1] »Thank you SSML and Ed for your replies.
Interesting stuff. It is clear that so much of astrological meanings have their origins in the astronomicalgeometries and what those relationships may mean symbolically. These things are arguably the most factual
components of astrology, because they are so indisputably concrete, and in many ways may also precede or
supercede any empirical observation of "qualities" which would tend to confirm (or not) these symbolic
geometries - or may even be the very origin of many myths themselves. But this also means that thesegeometries as translated onto 2 dimensional mappings must be representations of actual realities as close as
possible in order to reveal underlying metaphysical meaning, regardless of personal preferences ofstyles/methods.
It is easy to get onto the highway many miles down the road and talk about psychological meanings, and the
profusion of texts in that regard compared to those dealing with these geometric issues demonstrates this - but
if the underlying "facts" are lacking, the results may be fundamentally flawed. We do rely on computers andsoftware now to provide so much of this, meaning that we count on the developers to have mastered theseissues before translating them into usable form, so we don't have to - it is assumed - but I wonder how muchfundamental understanding is lost this way or even misapplied unknowingly? Wackford mentions this a few
times and in a way it is the entire point of the articles which have great utility in organizing basic understandingof things that are important in subsequent dialogs where a deficit of basic structural understanding leaves a gap
or misdirects conclusions. It's like trying to be a good cook without a basic understanding of physical science it's easy to follow a recipe by letter/rote - but for truer mastery, one may need to know about viscosity, thermal
properties, basic chemistry, etc., before getting into the subtleties of flavors and spices.
Thanks for the article recommendation, Ed. Very thorough, deep and well thought out exposition on thesubject. Astrology needs these periodic "Saturn reality checks". He certainly seems to make a good case for
Placidus, and its the whys and wherefores that are valuable therein.
Surely, technical astrology is not my metier, although I seemed to have stumbled intuitively into some vague"understanding" that scratches the surface of some of these complex concrete issues that are thoroughly anddeeply explored in these articles in a way I admittedly cannot fully understand, even if i get a general sense of
it. I did see that my original questions/understanding had a legitimate application to the content so I guess I
am going in the right direction. I wish I could "get" more but some things did penetrate.
Can you imagine if the Earths rotation was bi-axial? hahaAlso, pursuant to this topic, if you know of any good resources where there are clear graphic representations(beyond what was offered in the articles), of these geometries specifically for astrologers, systematic tutorials,
animated projections, clear visual aids, etc., it would be helpful for me, maybe others too. Probably due to a
distinct lack of Earth, I seem to need to see things visually/holistically (vs linear sequential words) in order toverify and correlate to verbal description for a fuller understanding.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #93 - on: 05.10.2009 at 18:19 [UT+1] »Yes, I'm a fan of the formal characteristics of astronomy having a fundamental bearing on astrological methods
and meaning. But not too many astrologers share that orientation. It often feels like being a voice in thewilderness.
As far as graphic material goes, you might want to try out Martin Lewicki's tutorial CD on the subject:
http://au.geocities.com/marty_0750/companion.html . He's good.
- Ed
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now hereEx Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #94 - on: 05.10.2009 at 19:32 [UT+1] »Thanks again Ed, that is just what I am looking for.
Re voice in wilderness: somebody has to be the pioneer.
Perhaps the 'burden of joy' of gG1 a7
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HoraryMystic

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Re: Equal houses« Reply #95 - on: 05.10.2009 at 20:16 [UT+1] »SSML,Yes, I realized, somewhat belatedly, that the IC does not demarcate the center of the Earth in the chart. In
fact, since the zodiacal positions of planets and all other objects are expressed relative to the Earth's center, it
would be hard to see how one can really locate the center, unless we(Thanks, Ed), take the line from the native
to the center of the Earth, create a plane with it going through the ecliptic poles(not the Earth's poles), and see
where this intersects the ecliptic belt--Voila, we have the 4th and 10th House cusps of the Equal House system,
because these points are 90 degrees from the Asc/Desc(thanks again Ed--I think I found this years ago but
forgot, and went on happily using Equal).
I have never taken to the notion of the Earth's position being opposite to the Sun's. There is no logic to this,except that the ground is the Earth, and the Sun is in the sky(or NOT). To me, the only way that they can beconceivably opposite is at 'high noon', when the Sun is at his apex. I think that this is probably what inspired
the theory. I don't think that the Earth can be truly opposite the Sun(or any other planet), not like Mars or theother outer planets oppose the Sun. I just haven't been presented with, nor have I come up with, a convincing
argument for this theory.
I have read Michael Wackford's essay and it does make a lot of sense however. Placidus did not intend for 'his'system to be a geometrically projected one, where you divide the zodiac into houses. It was more like you
would take the individual planets and mathematically determine how much of their semi-arc they have, by
virtue of the Earth's rotation, 'covered'. Thus the Placidian house cusps are by no means exact divisions, andthe houses they demarcate are by no means set in stone--except in the case of the Sun, which is 'always' righton the ecliptic. The other planets are never right on the ecliptic unless they are at the point in orbit where it
intersects the ecliptic, so their positions by Placidian house may not be immediately discernible. You have totake them individually. If you are not versed in mathematics, this makes it doubly hard. You would have to go
into some kind of local space astrology--find out when the planet reached its apex(which is not always at theMC), when it rose, and where along this continuum the planet was in the chart. And you have to decide
whether you want to base this on time, or space--I think Placidus based 'his'(quotes because he says he got it
ultimately from Ptolemy) on time.
I think we need to move towards a more 3-dimensional astrology, though I believe that some astrologers are
already doing this, using parallels, declinations, etc. I still think that Equal House is very usable, and indeed
can be placed over any other system that you may use to give added information.
HM
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Gnostic
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #96 - on: 06.10.2009 at 18:25 [UT+1] »Quote from bibbe on 02.10.2009 at 12:31 [UT+1]:
Gnostic,
I´m born in northern latitudes so my chart has quite unequal houses. I´m working with experimenting different systems. But I use therulerships to each house and here´s the main problem. Houses are seen as where? in the chart. When I think this is it! I found that there´s something wrong again. Not getting it perfected.
I´m highly interested of everything that concerns this and have followed the discussion here.
May I ask you were´s the astrology, theory, behind that you wrote? My hcope is not exaclty of that withbrising but similar, that´s why I

ask.
Thanks,
Bibbe

Have you checked on chart drawing ascendant thenMaybe you are a ASC c+MC j am I right?

? You seem on the right track since those which I mentioned areborn in cities like Umeå/Haparanda Sweden, Raahe/Kuusamo Finland, Nori'ilsk/Archangelesk/Murmansk Russia
to take some examples. No you cannot find any on depth information outside of my community since theradical group is a liberal one. It's based on self knowledge, real-life observations and harmony with darkmatter.
Since cosmic repopulation is the rule amongst us Zhnas, we only recognize those with family, comfort,
introvert, nurturing, clinging, possessive, opinion oriented qualities with great self image to be Zhnas. We don'ttake any converts like other religions(Hence my secretive response) but we of course appreciate the fact that
there's been some non-Zhnas like Joseph Smith etc who got his inspiration from us.
It is well known if you checked the chart drawing that a ASC c+MC j has a little different signs on respective
House cusps than do one with ASC c+MC l. It simply means that those individuals have a different self image.
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #97 - on: 22.10.2009 at 21:15 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 02.10.2009 at 23:28 [UT+1]:
Vivisha Quote:
I can see your point. i'm thinking that your descriptiion of the cyclistic process here is more pertinent to the tauras/scorpio
axis than soley scorpio itself. Taurus builds 'methodically', 'persistently', engaging in mundane tasks that are often'repetetive' and 'monotonous' with 'persistence' in order to produce something of value. Scorpio will then tear down thatwhich is not useful, strippng away to the dross ( its relationship to bowel movements), so that all thats left is what can beenriching. I'm unsure whether that quailfies productive as a key word for Scorpio ( though iv got no arguement with mostall of those you highlighted). When looking at the Taurus/scorpio relationship ( axis) together however it is without doubt
demonstrative of a productive cycle for generating resources.

Hi Vivisha, I agree with what you say about Taurus, both Scorpio and Taurus are fixed signs too and have a lot in common as well as beingpolarities, thus part of the same process. Intake and output, Taurus being more the ingestion , and Scorpio the elimination but also

the output or ejaculate, the seeds and the compost that produce the new cycle that Taurus then builds upon. What is moreproductive and full of growth than a fertilised seed? I think the thing about Scorpio is its fertility [/highlight]and drive to be
productive, the tremendous productive energy for growth that a seed has, and also that even what is waste by one point of view is theraw material and riches for another, and part of an ongoing cycle of metamorphosis. Think of the tremendous productiveenergy that goes into metamorphosis the Scorpio phases of growth after the Taurus phases of eating for example that a silk worm orcaterpillar goes through. The discarding of the old shell or skin like a cicada is also Scorpionic but the real effort has gone into making the

new form. (Interestingly the modern ruler of Scorpio, Pluto is known as Hades in Greek myth; this name means "hidden riches" ...
the Planet Pluto - the seed-self or "hidden riches" within).

Hi SSML,I'm playing catchup here as i have been out of action for a while so possibly i am now flogging a dead horse
Anyway i intended to respond and wanted to say that i can reconcile this view of scorpio if i pull in the
traditional ruler:- Mars. Mars being the seed of fertility, the first spark of fire, representing the life force striving
to become an entity, the urge to survive. I have taken the liberty of highlighting what i consider to be the moremartian keywords within your response as when we are discussing scorpio in terms of the above life/death
cycles, metamorphisis etc im thinking what we we are really discussing is the relationship between Mars andPluto as co rulers of scorpio?
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #98 - on: 23.10.2009 at 02:09 [UT+1] »Hi Vivisha,I think the main question you had was over my use of productive for Scorpio as against reproductive. I see
Scorpio as both, in a work sense Scorpio likes to be productive and involved in production and I was taught"productive" was one of its keywords. The process of metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly is done in thedark of a cocoon, and is certainly a very productive Scorpionic type process exemplified by the silk worm
becoming a virtual silk-making factory in order to spin its cocoon as well as the actual process ofmetamorphosis that takes place within the cocoon. Whereas you look to the planets Mars and Pluto to explain
Scorpio, I don't disagree with you, its just that I tend to think of signs in terms of other signs, as acontinuum. I would see Scorpio more in terms of following on from Libra, the sign of relationship. In
simplistic terms Libra can be uniting in marriage or in enmity as in joined in battle, and Scorpio can be birthand death as the consequence. And of course Scorpio represents the reproductive and the eliminatoryorgans. And perhaps in an individual's functioning what's put to use in the body (regeneration/repair) or
eliminated from the body (waste) after the Kidneys (libra) and the intestines (virgo) have done their work
processing what is ingested (Taurus). Anyway I'm just rambling on now.
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Linguist

Ex Member

Re: Equal houses« Reply #99 - on: 23.10.2009 at 02:18 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 23.10.2009 at 02:09 [UT+1]:
Hi Vivisha,I think the main question you had was over my use of productive for Scorpio as against reproductive. I see Scorpio as both, in a worksense Scorpio likes to be productive and involved in production and I was taught "productive" was one of its keywords. The process ofmetamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly is done in the dark of a cocoon, and is certainly a very productive Scorpionic type process
exemplified by the silk worm becoming a virtual silk-making factory in order to spin its cocoon as well as the actual process ofmetamorphosis that takes place within the cocoon. Whereas you look to the planets Mars and Pluto to explain Scorpio, I don't disagreewith you, its just that I tend to think of signs in terms of other signs, as a continuum. I would see Scorpio more in terms of following on
from Libra, the sign of relationship. In simplistic terms Libra can be uniting in marriage or in enmity as in joined in battle, and Scorpio canbe birth and death as the consequence. And of course Scorpio represents the reproductive and the eliminatory organs. And perhaps in an
individual's functioning what's put to use in the body (regeneration/repair) or eliminated from the body (waste) after the Kidneys (libra)
and the intestines (virgo) have done their work processing what is ingested (Taurus). Anyway I'm just rambling on now.

In Psychological Astrology Scorpio, as the middle sign of the third quadrant, (a water sign), is the most crucial
relationship point. Its where we are at our most 'intense' with the other, for example the sexual act. Libra iswhere we first meet the other its the 'introduction' you might say thus Libras disposition to keep a civilised'space' between folks. (an air sign)
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Equal houses« Reply #100 - on: 23.10.2009 at 04:35 [UT+1] »Seems valid enough Linguist.

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