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Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide (Read 2582 times)

Debra M.
MemberDesigner Kate Spade, dead by suicide« on: 05.06.2018 at 21:28 [UT+1] »R.I.P. I didn't know of her or her fashion designs, but apparently she was very popular and went to A.S.U.
(Arizona State) where she met her husband. She leaves behind her husband and a 13 year old daughter.
Her neice is an actress and brother in law a comedian.
http://www.businessinsider.com/kate-spade-shared-how-she-wanted-to-be-remembered -2002interview-2018-6
http://www.businessinsider.com/kate-spade-husband-andy-spade-business-partner-20 18-6
Posts: 7377

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_SpadeDec 24, 1962 - Jun 05, 2018 (age 55)
Her natal chart does show a rather lethal connection of planets Mars -Uranus -Pluto
https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/kate-spade/

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Debra M.

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #1 - on: 05.06.2018 at 21:39 [UT+1] »Sadly, she died the same way the zany comedian, ? "Mork from Ork" star died, using a device, in his case a belt
and she a scarf; on the doorknob via hanging.
It seems extreme, but the stellium of malefics explains the extremes.
I still think as with Robin Williams there is some rhyme and reason behind it. We just don't know why yet. With
Williams, it was severe depression he suffered for years. Perhaps Bi-Polar disorder to the extreme mood swings.
With Kate Spade, we don't know much about her life other then her meteoric rise to fame and then riches whenPosts: 7377

she and her partners including her husband were bought out my Neiman Marcus and other business dealings.
Still, regardless of the reason, I feel sorry for her parents, her daughter and all who will mourn her loss.

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IP LoggedDebra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #2 - on: 05.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1] »transiting Pluto has been back and forth for years over her natal C so shes suffered by this transit for quite
some time now. I see a few rather seriously critical degrees, one of them the (almost 25th° e E which is o DI ) ...so it will be interesting to know the whys if anyone knows. It was said she left a note behind.
Other I noticed is near the 8th° of l a fixed star named Skat which brings greater suffering to it's natives. Tr.

I separated from this critical planet (Jupiter in this case) and note too, its proximity to her Moira and Chiron.
She suffered a long time.
Posts: 7377

Juno has a harsh aspect to her D and I can't imagine the stars here (opposite Virgo) are any easier either for alove life. Her A is in the 1st decan of the sign of Capricorn, thus ruled by G which bears that harsher q aspect.
All the money and fame in the world, wasn't worth it, with a sour love life I suppose for some who fall victim
to love's pierce should it pierce the heart.
The housekeeper found her.
http://pix11.com/2018/06/05/designer-kate-spade-found-dead-in-her-nyc-home-polic e/
Quote:The officials say she was found dead by housekeeping staff inside her Park Avenue apartment in the Upper East Side at about 10:20 a.m.
Tuesday. They say she left a note at the scene.
Her husband and business partner Andy Spade was in the house at the time. The couple's daughter was not home.

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Debra M.

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #3 - on: 05.06.2018 at 21:57 [UT+1] »Some of her colorful designs for which she was known seen here. She seemed to dress rather simply, as for her
own attire and makeup, hair, etc. A simple woman in the midst of a huge sensation of her own making.
She said being born and raised in Kansas City Missouri was wonderful for her. Isn't this the boyhood home ofMark Twain the writer and humorist? Actually, Twain was born Hannibal Missouri but no doubt was a home town
hero to the budding writers
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fashion-designer-kate-spade-found-dead-her- newPosts: 7377

york-apartment-n880201
Quote:
Spade was known for her statement handbags in the shape of flamingos, apples, frogs, crabs, snails, pineapples and more. She createddresses that flowed in a summer's breeze and ones that buttoned up for the boardroom. Her shoes could be the coquettish exclamation
point on any outfit.
The Kansas City, Missouri native initially had a passion for journalism when she began her career, obtaining a degree in the field from
Arizona State University.
A year later, in 1986, she started working in the fashion accessories department at Mademoiselle magazine, where her maiden name, Katy
Brosnahan, appeared on the masthead. She left the magazine in 1991 as senior fashion editor.

more photos of her style:https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Style/designer-kate-spade-left-legacy-chic-fun-fashio
n/story?id=55663997
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anarchrystologer
Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #4 - on: 05.06.2018 at 22:04 [UT+1] »Quote from Debra M. on 05.06.2018 at 21:39 [UT+1]:

I still think as with Robin Williams there is some rhyme and reason behind it. We just don't know why yet. With Williams, it was

severe depression he suffered for years. Perhaps Bi-Polar disorder to the extreme mood swings.

No. It was not.
Robin Williams' widow: 'It was not depression' that killed him
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/03/robin-williams-disintegrating-befor e-suicidewidow-says
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IP LoggedDebra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #5 - on: 05.06.2018 at 22:15 [UT+1] »Thank you for that reminder, what his widow and 2nd wife Susan said.
However, the family members like his children say it was ongoing depression for Robin Williams too.
Of course I did know he came down with a disease other than mental illness and that was very sad too.
Do you have something against people who battle mental illnesses? Thats okay, don't answer, just add
ASTROLOGY to the thread please.
Sad, if so!
Posts: 7377

We cannot dismiss what so many other authorities on his life have said plagued him.

http://pix11.com/2014/08/11/robin-williams-dead-cnn-columnist-discusses-her-depr essiondiagnosis/
Quote:
CNN - Editor's note: Comedic actor Robin Williams died at his Northern California home Monday, law enforcement officials said. Williams
was 63. His representative said, "He has been battling severe depression of late." .

His own words, spoken with wit and humor about the diagnosis by two psychiatrists:(CNN) -- In August, after several months of seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist, I was diagnosed withdepression.
The news came as a shock.
"I'm not depressed," I said defiantly, shaking my head when the doctor deduced that must be what was ailingme.
"I hate depressed people."https://www.eonline.com/news/941474/kate-spade-found-dead-at-55-after-apparent-s uicide

https://www.mghclaycenter.org/parenting-concerns/death-robin-williams-two-psychi atristsperspectives/
Quote:
Among the many tragedies that stem from Mr. Williams’ suicide, it occurs to me that it’s a shame that he is not here to write his own
commentary. I have an uncanny sense that he could accomplish what so many of us in the mental health community strive for but often
miss. That is, he could help us all understand the pain of psychiatric suffering, and at the same time, the need for public empathy forthese disorders.

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #6 - on: 05.06.2018 at 22:21 [UT+1] »His 2nd wife gave an interview, not long after Robin died, however, this thread is not devoted to Robin
Williams, other then the way he chose to hang himself, and the similarity to Kate Spade may indeed end
there!!
We cannot get into the head of Robin Williams, or his years prior to the suicide, nor is or was it myintention to do so on this thread.
We'll have to agree to disagree, what came first, the chicken or the egg!
Lets keep this thread on the life and death of Kate Spade please!
Posts: 7377

BTW: Have you ANY Astrology to add?
Quote:
Robin Williams‘ health had deteriorated so much that he was just weeks away from moving into an inpatient treatment facility – one hemay never have left – when he took his own life, the beloved comedian’s widow has revealed to PEOPLE.
His wife then spoke at length about the "new diagnosis", being Lewy Syndrome with Dementia impacting his future. They were both "veryworried" she said.

Quote from anarchrystologer on 05.06.2018 at 22:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from Debra M. on 05.06.2018 at 21:39 [UT+1]:

I still think as with Robin Williams there is some rhyme and reason behind it. We just don't know why yet. With

Williams, it was severe depression he suffered for years. Perhaps Bi-Polar disorder to the extreme
mood swings.

Kindly, let your astrology be on Kate Spade not Robin Williams. He had his own thread which might beresurrected if you so wish.

Robin Williams' widow: 'It was not depression' that killed him
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/03/robin-williams-disintegrating-befor e-suicide-widow-says

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Bluebird

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #7 - on: 06.06.2018 at 00:48 [UT+1] »Most people who take their own lives are suffering from depression. It could be caused by many things
including onset of other diseases, financial ruin, loss of a loved one, etc. The point is that suicidal people are
not in the right frame of mind for whatever reason. But depression is the underlying issue because no happy
person wants to die.
Posts: 1568

Thanks for posting chart with transits. You are right. J played a big role as it can take so much out of aperson. Then there is G sitting on her A bringing a dark cloud over her. There was that recent suicide by
Avicii who used a broken bottle to cut a vein. EG was involved in his bloody death.
Kate used a scarf tohang herself. Very very sad for her daughter she left behind.
She at least left a note trying to explain to
her daughter why she did it. But there is never a real explanation because as Deb said, we can't get into theirheads and know exactly why. It appears they have lost all hope. That is a G influence. Many of us havecontemplated suicide at least once in our lives. J is often involved as it takes years to pound down on aplanet and sucks the life out of people.
RIP Kate.
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Debra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #8 - on: 06.06.2018 at 02:09 [UT+1] »Thank you Black Crow for saying it so much better than I could or did.
I do feel terribly sad for her daughter, only 13.

Posts: 7377

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Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #9 - on: 06.06.2018 at 05:19 [UT+1] »Also feel for the daughter.
I know the orbs are wide but there is a double whammy of FmI & ImF. Maybe oblivion was more
attractive? I know that when Michael Jackson passed away, Liz Green noted how F was present. I like to think
she's gone to the angels.
Posts: 278
Gender:Just saying, Isis

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azureMember

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #10 - on: 06.06.2018 at 11:02 [UT+1] »I can see transiting Jupiter in Scorpio on the 8th house cusp, conjunct natal Neptune.
Natal Jupiter has transiting Neptune going over it in the 12th house. Plus natal Jupiter is conjunct natal Chiron.
So it seems too many secrets buried and not enough talking it out. That triggers the T square with opposition
Mars, Uranus and Pluto in the 6th, square to the Moon in Sagittarius. Putting on a brave face, maybe got too
much for her.
It’s been reported that she left an note to her 13 year old daughter to not blame herself for her mother’s
death, but to ‘ask your father’. Presumably there was something not right with that marriage. Lilith in the 7thhouse is square Mercury in Capricorn. Anger and holding it in.
Posts: 1503
Gender:Other reports say she had long struggled with depression. Transiting Neptune is in the 12th and transiting
Chiron is close to the Asc.
(I’ve got a heavy 12th house and I really have to work at getting my feelings out and not burying them or I
can feel overwhelmed. But then everyone has their ways of resolving their problems. I have Moon conjunctChiron in the 3rd in Aquarius so I find resolution is often through talking and analysing).
So you get two themes strongly repeating, in her natal and progressed from with Neptune and Chiron and
Jupiter. A lot of buried feelings IMO.
I am interested in the similarities between this situation and that of L'Wren Scott who was also in the fashion
world and had to live with the disjunction between perception and reality. That is, external success can exert ahuge pressure to keep up appearances. Yet if the person is feeling depressed, the perception is that they have"no right to be", given the worldly success (or perception of success as sometimes as in the case of L'Wren
Scott her business was failing) can be an enormous unresolved burden.
Both these women were in a situation where their looks were starting to fail. A very difficult situation in thatworld in which women aren't allowed to age.

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azure

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #11 - on: 06.06.2018 at 11:16 [UT+1] »Quote from anarchrystologer on 05.06.2018 at 22:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from Debra M. on 05.06.2018 at 21:39 [UT+1]:

I still think as with Robin Williams there is some rhyme and reason behind it. We just don't know why yet. With

Williams, it was severe depression he suffered for years. Perhaps Bi-Polar disorder to the extreme
mood swings.

Posts: 1503
Gender:No. It was not.
Robin Williams' widow: 'It was not depression' that killed him
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/03/robin-williams-disintegrating-befor e-suicide-widow-says

Yes I think there's an argument that what Robin Williams did was a form of self-inflicted euthanasia because of
the incurable nature of his illnesses.
Because in the West we think of life as sacrosant we cannot contemplate a situation where the person sees theirbody as functionally no longer able to carry them, and they want to end that scenario while still capable ofexecuting that.
This is probably a courageous act rather than an irrational one.
Apologies to everyone if this is offtopic, but I do think issues of death/eighth house issues aren't talked about
enough in the West. It's as if we carry on as if we are going to live forever and as if prolonging life in any form,
is automatically the best thing to do.
There's a time when a dog or cat quietly takes itself off somewhere to die. My 17 year old cat has started
sleeping outside for long periods, even though it's winter here in Australia and she always used to be insidesnuggling up in my lap. I know she will die at some point.
We're out of touch with that animal intelligence.
I truly love her, but she knows her time is slowing down. We both know it.
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Helene

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #12 - on: 06.06.2018 at 12:01 [UT+1] »More information:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5808813/Kate-Spade-dead-Park-Avenue-apar tmentapparent-suicide.html
Posts: 427

I feel so sorry for her daughter and family.

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clairea

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #13 - on: 06.06.2018 at 13:09 [UT+1] »Quote from azure on 06.06.2018 at 11:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from anarchrystologer on 05.06.2018 at 22:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from Debra M. on 05.06.2018 at 21:39 [UT+1]:

Posts: 760
Gender:I still think as with Robin Williams there is some rhyme and reason behind it. We just don't know why yet.

With Williams, it was severe depression he suffered for years. Perhaps Bi-Polar
disorder to the extreme mood swings.

No. It was not.
Robin Williams' widow: 'It was not depression' that killed him
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/03/robin-williams-disintegrating-befor e-suicide-widow-says

Yes I think there's an argument that what Robin Williams did was a form of self-inflicted euthanasia because of the incurable nature of his
illnesses.
Because in the West we think of life as sacrosant we cannot contemplate a situation where the person sees their body as functionally nolonger able to carry them, and they want to end that scenario while still capable of executing that.
This is probably a courageous act rather than an irrational one.
Apologies to everyone if this is offtopic, but I do think issues of death/eighth house issues aren't talked about enough in the West. It's as
if we carry on as if we are going to live forever and as if prolonging life in any form, is automatically the best thing to do.
There's a time when a dog or cat quietly takes itself off somewhere to die. My 17 year old cat has started sleeping outside for long
periods, even though it's winter here in Australia and she always used to be inside snuggling up in my lap. I know she will die at somepoint.
We're out of touch with that animal intelligence.
I truly love her, but she knows her time is slowing down. We both know it.

I agree with you about we in the West thinking that life is sacrosanct. I hope to 'walk out into the snow',
metaphorically, when my time comes.
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Catsratz
Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #14 - on: 06.06.2018 at 15:46 [UT+1] »Quote from clairea on 06.06.2018 at 13:09 [UT+1]:
I agree with you about we in the West thinking that life is sacrosanct. I hope to 'walk out into the snow', metaphorically, when my timecomes.

Me too. Like some philosopher said, the only thing that keeps him living without undue stress is knowing hehad the means to end it.
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IP LoggedDebra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #15 - on: 06.06.2018 at 16:43 [UT+1] »Thanks to everyone who contributed in such a positive helpful way.
In the United States at least, there were and are studies made of the different methods of suicides, because
unfortunatley they are up in our country. Women by and large take non-violent methods as the way out.
Usually, pills.
The way she killed herself, to end the pain seems like such a strange method to use but yet men do this often
enough. Years ago it was the way that actor son of Bruce Lee in a foreign Asian country where he kept a home
did the same thing and was found by the housekeeper in a closet.
Posts: 7377

There are even teens who are doing the same way and manner.
I'm thinking its that stellium of 3 malefics E (in a murder critical degree i.e. in crime charts watched carefully)

OJ in her chart that somehow played into the way and manner of choice to end it all. When people use pills,
perhaps Neptune will play a big role in their natal chart as in the 4th or 8th house. Just guessing and speaking
out loud.
As for the planets congested aiding each other's energies, I think the more help there is available, (hot lines forteenagers) many of whom do not confide their worries to their parents; available medical care (which we havelittle or none in our country except for those with the funds to purchase same), we might be able to tackle thisenormous problem dealing with depression far more then doing nothing, which essentially is the priorities
today.
Suicide method statistics in the USA | Lost All Hope: The ...
lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/us-methods-suicide
13 rows · In the USA, there are three particularly popular methods of successful suicide: firearms,
suffocation/hanging (likely to be largely hanging, but will also include carbon monoxide poisoning) andpoisoning (commonly by drugs).
METHOD
MEN
MEN
WOMEN
Firearm
17,91056.4%
2,756
Suffocation/hanging
8,016
25.2%
Poisoning*
Fall
695

3,538
2.2%

2,072

11.1%
3,191
256
*****could this be off a bridge?

The government has also put out their study and collection of statistics:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5322a2.htm
Methods of Suicide Among Persons Aged 10--19 Years --- United States, 1992--2001 In 2001, suicide was thethird leading cause of death among persons aged 10--19 years (1). The most common method of suicide in thisage group was by firearm (49%), followed by suffocation (mostly hanging) (38%) and poisoning (7%)

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anarchrystologer
Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #16 - on: 06.06.2018 at 21:32 [UT+1] »Debra, it was you who raised Robin Williams' name in this thread.
I have nothing against people who are burdened with invasive speculations as to their mental health and endof-life choices from complete and utter strangers, and who challenge the rest of us to slog our way through ourinherited and acquired patterns of assumptions and expectations of how things shoulda-coulda-woulda
unfolded.
In my country, Australia, we are shifting the language to reduce the stigma and shame for those whose loved
ones
have sought a death by their own hand.
As you have quoted 'stats and rats', Debra, allow me to provide a link to a resource from my culture Quote:
Suicide Prevention Australia (SPA) has described suicide as a "human behaviour — a response tounbearable psychological pain".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-08/suicide-survivors-key-to-curbing-suicide-r
ates/7229118

On the topic of suicide, here is a case-study that you - or others - might care to examine through anastrological lens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Pike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ena_Twigg

As for astrology.....I find that integrating asteroids #944 #55 and #1181 into such charts can shed more light.

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Chaselifeandlove

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #17 - on: 06.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1] »She died as Venus (her reputation, products, what she was known for) went opposite Pluto. Pluto is not about
heaven, people. Pluto and Lilith was conjunct her natal 10th House Mercury, lord of the 11th House of hopes
and dreams. 10th House represented her husband, which is true of a lot of women, even those with stellar
careers. It is very hard for a 55 year old woman to be totally rejected (Lilith), dumped by a husband who isprobably fantasizing about someone younger, and facing an unmarried life in old age, when she was
accustomed to being married (I wish more men would think about this, when thinking about divorcing an older
lady they are tired of).
Posts: 187
Gender:Choosing suicide when one has a thirteen year old child is an incredibly selfish act. Her suicide will mark her
daughter's life irrevocably for the rest of her life. I have no sympathy for Kate Spade. I may be the only one
to say this on this forum. The man I am dating is an active duty soldier who defends this country. He is in his
fifties. But I can still see how his mother's suicide when he was fifteen years old has had a permanent impact
on him.
My own grandmother attempted suicide three times. She kept trying to kill herself because she was devastatedby miscarriage after miscarriage. Only one live birth resulted in my mother. In her old age, my grandma
became a soldier for her grandchildren, after her only daughter died of cancer (a year after her husband died ofa heart attack).
Kate Spade, on the other hand, had it all. She chose a more lethal means than my grandma, and managed topull it off. Let's stop talking about depression and it's devastating effects, and let's stop talking about how
depression can affect even the wealthiest. The truth is that the wealthiest are weak. If Spade hadn't been sucha privileged princess, she would have stuck it out. Spade can't hold a candle to my grandma (now deceased).

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IP LoggedDebra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #18 - on: 06.06.2018 at 22:17 [UT+1] »arch....Thank you, I thought of you as I posted that earlier, (Stats, etc)

Quote:
You are right, I was wrong.

As a matter of fact, I posted last night too, before I signed off about the death of my own daughter, (myPosts: 7377

youngest child) of suicide.
I also deleted that one. It went on too long as I usually have a habit ofdoing, spilling my guts for all to see. Instead, even though its been a decade, the fallout is so severe and gut
wrenching, I've talked my husband into going with me to a Suicide Survivors meeting next Thursday at the
Senior Center where he attends the gym there. I doubt he'll come in, as with a Bd 29th degree (verycritical),and I'd prefer he didn't as he'd cry and be terribly upset I think. Hes suffering too much now (a badtime for him according to the Vedic Astros I consulted with here) They said, "June, the middle of June for 2
weeks will be especially hard), so I told him to just sit outside and take his Nexus and read or whatever he doeswith the games on there. solitaire I think .
He has C in h 12th house, very hard for him to get his
emotions out. When they do, its a terrible time for him.
I don't want to speak any more about it here, but my daughter (just for the general info on this thread),became psychotic I suppose they'd call it, and hallucinated. I had dreams of every step of the way she
deteriorated during those months informing me in the dream.
She did not take drugs other than the few perscripition drugs for Bi-Polar and depression she was given. No one
really helped at all, as her rich husband simply talked her into marriage counseling. We had zero access to her,but I don't think we could have saved her anyway. I'm convinced of that. It was too late. My dreams told me
this, the Vedic few I trust with my life told me this, and I knew this spiritually. Yet her dad still blames himself
for not "saving" her from herself.
Instead there are her twin 4 year olds, (now 14) who miss their mom everyday and probably don't know why
she left. Thats why I wrote a book for them. Their father wanted a divorce. That (not alone) took her over theedge. She simply was not equipped to cope. In our country, we have very little mental health help. Even for
those with the financial means its shoddy at best. The stigma is horrible. Its no wonder most keep it underwraps if they can. My child was extremely inward and quiet. Bh Aj ...and N 1st hs. Her arrival was asurprise for both of us. We had not been expecting a 3rd child. She was a total joy however once she was here
for at least 15 years. After this, you think its teenage angst but it wasn't in retrospect. I don't like to relive thepast however.
The Vedic Insights I have rec'd when the chips are down for us (and believe me with Tr. Pluto over my 6th and5th over the past 15 years, there is more of this then up....have been invaluable to me. They also helped me
prepare (if such a thing exists) for my daughter's eventual death before it happened. Sounds strange I know,
but they were invaluable with insight for me.
Now, with helping me to help my husband:https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1527625524

I also appreciate using some of the asteroids for further insight. I'll check them out.
Quote:
As for astrology.....I find that integrating asteroids #944 #55 and #1181 into such charts can shed more light.

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IP LoggedBluebird

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #19 - on: 07.06.2018 at 02:02 [UT+1] »She suffered from bouts of depression and anxiety for years. You have NO idea about the causes of suicide
and to call her selfish and weak is truly ignorant.
As was mentioned, GmA can literally take the sun away from your life and this is on top of J which produces
Posts: 1568

heavy and intense thoughts mC.
She was successful due to her talent and hard work, typical of j. Hardly a princess. If you have nocompassion for those suffering from depression or other forms of mental illness then please refrain frominsulting a person who is now dead.

“Kate suffered from depression and anxiety for many years. She was actively seeking help andworking closely with her doctors to treat her disease, one that takes far too many lives. We were intouch with her the night before and she sounded happy. There was no indication and no warningthat she would do this. It was a complete shock. And it clearly wasn’t her. There were personal
demons she was battling,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/style/kate-spade-husband-andy-spade.html
Suicide rates are soaring in the world, particularly among the youth and older men. There are huge numbersof soldiers who kill themselves due to PTSD. Are they weak and selfish too? (Many of them are
married and have children).
https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2951

Suicidal thoughts are considered to be a mental illness and if you tell a person you are going to kill yourself,
you will likely be committed for at least 48 hrs for a psych evaluation. Why do you think this is?
Duh! Because it's not healthy or normal.
I had to call the cops on my brother a few months ago because he told a work colleague that he couldn't take itanymore & slammed the phone down. Then he wouldn't pick up the phone so this guy contacted me (I'm mybrother's 'next of kin' so he had my telE).
I called the police & then rushed in a cab to his place. I was shaking, wasn't sure if he had gone on to the roof
to jump or what.
The police contacted the security of the bldg to get them to the roof.
It all worked out in the end, my brother is alive but he was suffering from depression after recently declaring
bankruptcy. He would
have been just another suicide statistic if things had turned out differently. So please don't judge anyone foryou are NOT in their headand cannot know their pain or what they are suffering through. The fact that she left her daughter motherlesstells me her suicidal thoughts were so intense that it overcame her strong maternal love which you cannot
ever understand if you have never been a mother.

Quote from Chaselifeandlove on 06.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
She died as Venus (her reputation, products, what she was known for) went opposite Pluto. Pluto is not about heaven, people. Pluto and
Lilith was conjunct her natal 10th House Mercury, lord of the 11th House of hopes and dreams. 10th House represented her husband, which
is true of a lot of women, even those with stellar careers. It is very hard for a 55 year old woman to be totally rejected (Lilith), dumped
by a husband who is probably fantasizing about someone younger, and facing an unmarried life in old age, when she was accustomed tobeing married (I wish more men would think about this, when thinking about divorcing an older lady they are tired of).
Choosing suicide when one has a thirteen year old child is an incredibly selfish act. Her suicide will mark her daughter's life irrevocably forthe rest of her life. I have no sympathy for Kate Spade. I may be the only one to say this on this forum. The man I am dating is anactive duty soldier who defends this country. He is in his fifties. But I can still see how his mother's suicide when he was fifteen years old
has had a permanent impact on him.
My own grandmother attempted suicide three times. She kept trying to kill herself because she was devastated by miscarriage after
miscarriage. Only one live birth resulted in my mother. In her old age, my grandma became a soldier for her grandchildren, after her only
daughter died of cancer (a year after her husband died of a heart attack).
Kate Spade, on the other hand, had it all. She chose a more lethal means than my grandma, and managed to pull it off. Let's stop talking
about depression and it's devastating effects, and let's stop talking about how depression can affect even the wealthiest. The truth is thatthe wealthiest are weak. If Spade hadn't been such a privileged princess, she would have stuck it out. Spade can't hold a candle to my
grandma (now deceased).

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #20 - on: 07.06.2018 at 03:20 [UT+1] »Quote:“Kate suffered from depression and anxiety for many years. She was actively seeking help and working closely with her
doctors to treat her disease, one that takes far too many lives. We were in touch with her the night before and she sounded
happy. There was no indication and no warning that she would do this. It was a complete shock. And it clearly wasn’t her.
There were personal demons she was battling,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/style/kate-spade-husband-andy-spade.html

Posts: 2454

"working closely with her doctors" = pharmaceutical medications which CAUSE SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. Drugs
only cover up symptoms, cause dependency and then cause the See-Saw effect, ultimately making symptoms
WORSE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressants_and_suicide_risk
With Chiron currently in Aries, we are all being initiated and tested in the realm of HOLISTIC healing for ourbodies and minds. We must all be in control of our own bodies, not let so called doctors harm us even more.
Nutrition, getting enough sleep in harmony with Circadian Rhythms, exercise, avoidance of environmental
toxins and ALL drugs, and most importantly good talk therapy to reach the root of the depression.
Sorry to hear about your terrible ordeal Debra. I have several friends who have lost children and they have alsogone through a living hell. God bless you.
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Bluebird

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #21 - on: 07.06.2018 at 03:35 [UT+1] »That is so scary. A person is depressed or anxious and they take pills which they think will help them andinstead it increases their chances of suicide.
F*** the pharma companies who push these drugs onto unsuspecting people. Phew, so glad my brother wasn't
Posts: 1568

prescribed them. Actually, he was offered something but he refused as he's a bit of a health nut (although hedoes drink) & rarely even takes an asprin.
Do you think Ob will help as b is a very grounded, holistic sign. Treasures from the earth and all that. We
seem to be apill popping people, is that due to Il.
Thanks for the posting, a good warning.

Quote from Apostrophe on 07.06.2018 at 03:20 [UT+1]:
Quote:“Kate suffered from depression and anxiety for many years. She was actively seeking help and working closelywith her doctors to treat her disease, one that takes far too many lives. We were in touch with her the night
before and she sounded happy. There was no indication and no warning that she would do this. It was acomplete shock. And it clearly wasn’t her. There were personal demons she was battling,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/style/kate-spade-husband-andy-spade.html"working closely with her doctors" = pharmaceutical medications which CAUSE SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. Drugs only cover up symptoms,
cause dependency and then cause the See-Saw effect, ultimately making symptoms WORSE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressants_and_suicide_risk
With Chiron currently in Aries, we are all being initiated and tested in the realm of HOLISTIC healing for our bodies and minds. We mustall be in control of our own bodies, not let so called doctors harm us even more. Nutrition, getting enough sleep in harmony with Circadian
Rhythms, exercise, avoidance of environmental toxins and ALL drugs, and most importantly good talk therapy to reach the root of thedepression.
Sorry to hear about your terrible ordeal Debra. I have several friends who have lost children and they have also gone through a living hell.
God bless you.

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azure

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #22 - on: 07.06.2018 at 05:11 [UT+1] »Quote from anarchrystologer on 06.06.2018 at 21:32 [UT+1]:
Debra, it was you who raised Robin Williams' name in this thread.
I have nothing against people who are burdened with invasive speculations as to their mental health and end-of-life choices from complete
and utter strangers, and who challenge the rest of us to slog our way through our inherited and acquired patterns of assumptions andexpectations of how things shoulda-coulda-woulda unfolded.
In my country, Australia, we are shifting the language to reduce the stigma and shame for those whose loved ones
have sought a death by their own hand.
As you have quoted 'stats and rats', Debra, allow me to provide a link to a resource from my culture -Posts: 1503

Quote:

Gender:Suicide Prevention Australia (SPA) has described suicide as a "human behaviour — a response tounbearable psychological pain".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-08/suicide-survivors-key-to-curbing-suicide-r ates/7229118

On the topic of suicide, here is a case-study that you - or others - might care to examine through an astrological lens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Pike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ena_Twigg

As for astrology.....I find that integrating asteroids #944 #55 and #1181 into such charts can shed more light.

Well said.
In the astrodienst threads there's an alarming seizing of the high moral ground on contentious issues.
Everyone has a story, and there's a world of pain associated with mental illness.
The solution isn't to damn others, but to try to gain better understanding.
Focusing on facts is a good start.
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Catsratz

Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #23 - on: 07.06.2018 at 13:40 [UT+1] »Debra, I'm so very sorry about your daughter.
In 1995 a 15-year old boy that was like a son to me was killed in a public and horrific car crash. I grieved for
him for years. He is one of my 4 favorite people, 3 of whom died in different years, all on August 24. I reserve
this day each year as a somber day and a day of appreciation for these three good people.
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Debra M.
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #24 - on: 07.06.2018 at 19:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Catsratz on 07.06.2018 at 13:40 [UT+1]:
Debra, I'm so very sorry about your daughter.
In 1995 a 15-year old boy that was like a son to me was killed in a public and horrific car crash. I grieved for him for years. He is one of
my 4 favorite people, 3 of whom died in different years, all on August 24. I reserve this day each year as a somber day and a day of
appreciation for these three good people.

Sorry to hear this, so Aug. 24th, is always a rather somber time for you I suppose or do you communicate in
the dream state with any of them?
Posts: 7377

For me and my husband, for the first 5 years (as well as her two older sisters) had a multitude of dreams, but
after some time, they tend to fall away . My husband tells me that its not easy to "get through" either. Probably
true. Grief, especially intense grief, is always like a concrete wall, is another thought.
I'd check my chart for August 24th and see if it makes any type of important connection to Jupiter or otherplanets if you ever do. Sometimes D G . I'd have to double check again to make sure and come back.
Here is one dream I saved from 2012:
Saturn within one degree of Asteroid “Jessi”. p (harmonious) to Y Ceres 8th house (Ceres nurture-death8th) where perhaps subconscious mind, are keywords.
Tr Jupiter a spiritual planet now approaching my natal Uranus in the house which rules “Hopes, Dreams &Wishes”. Uranus O of course is the unusual or the extremes in life.

In every dream I've checked, when the dreams occured and intense, I always saw remarkable proof right in thetransits. One of them for my husband(out of many) with Tr. F p the AI and prog.C right over his n.
asteroid "Jessi" her name while Tr. K 26° h 1st hs. right over his 25° n.F
Progressed E . 3° Virgo (opposite Royal Star of memorializing a name Fomalhaut) right over his natal 3°
P.O.F. 10th house within a few arc minutes.
Of course, at some point "in time" we must let go, for we'd not want to delay their progress either.

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Astro Rose

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #25 - on: 07.06.2018 at 20:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Apostrophe on 07.06.2018 at 03:20 [UT+1]:
Quote:“Kate suffered from depression and anxiety for many years. She was actively seeking help and working closelywith her doctors to treat her disease, one that takes far too many lives. We were in touch with her the night
before and she sounded happy. There was no indication and no warning that she would do this. It was acomplete shock. And it clearly wasn’t her. There were personal demons she was battling,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/style/kate-spade-husband-andy-spade.html"working closely with her doctors" = pharmaceutical medications which CAUSE SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. Drugs only cover up symptoms,
cause dependency and then cause the See-Saw effect, ultimately making symptoms WORSE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressants_and_suicide_risk
With Chiron currently in Aries, we are all being initiated and tested in the realm of HOLISTIC healing for our bodies and minds. We mustall be in control of our own bodies, not let so called doctors harm us even more. Nutrition, getting enough sleep in harmony with Circadian
Rhythms, exercise, avoidance of environmental toxins and ALL drugs, and most importantly good talk therapy to reach the root of thedepression.
Sorry to hear about your terrible ordeal Debra. I have several friends who have lost children and they have also gone through a living hell.
God bless you.

Veganism, EMDR therapy and Prozac helped me a lot (and still is) when my SR fB was in the 4th. Can there
be a balance? "Big Pharma" ain't that bad and not all holistic methods are good.
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Astro Rose

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #26 - on: 07.06.2018 at 20:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Chaselifeandlove on 06.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
She died as Venus (her reputation, products, what she was known for) went opposite Pluto. Pluto is not about heaven, people. Pluto and
Lilith was conjunct her natal 10th House Mercury, lord of the 11th House of hopes and dreams. 10th House represented her husband, which
is true of a lot of women, even those with stellar careers. It is very hard for a 55 year old woman to be totally rejected (Lilith), dumped
by a husband who is probably fantasizing about someone younger, and facing an unmarried life in old age, when she was accustomed tobeing married (I wish more men would think about this, when thinking about divorcing an older lady they are tired of).
Choosing suicide when one has a thirteen year old child is an incredibly selfish act. Her suicide will mark her daughter's life irrevocably forthe rest of her life. I have no sympathy for Kate Spade. I may be the only one to say this on this forum. The man I am dating is anactive duty soldier who defends this country. He is in his fifties. But I can still see how his mother's suicide when he was fifteen years old
has had a permanent impact on him.
My own grandmother attempted suicide three times. She kept trying to kill herself because she was devastated by miscarriage after
miscarriage. Only one live birth resulted in my mother. In her old age, my grandma became a soldier for her grandchildren, after her only
daughter died of cancer (a year after her husband died of a heart attack).
Kate Spade, on the other hand, had it all. She chose a more lethal means than my grandma, and managed to pull it off. Let's stop talking
about depression and it's devastating effects, and let's stop talking about how depression can affect even the wealthiest. The truth is thatthe wealthiest are weak. If Spade hadn't been such a privileged princess, she would have stuck it out. Spade can't hold a candle to my
grandma (now deceased).

That's pretty sad that someone would try to kill herself because she wanted a baby that will pretty muchinevitably grow old and die from difficult illnesses (babies never consent to be born to begin with). Selfish? Or
no?
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RainbowKitty

Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #27 - on: 07.06.2018 at 20:32 [UT+1] »Depression is a liar. And most people who are depressed believe the lies, not understanding that the sadthoughts are from the illness and not them. Selfish or not, she was being told by that internal voice that she
would be better off dead. And then she did it. Sad that most people do not understand that with somemedication and therapy , those scary thoughts can disappear- you just start thinking right again. And a huge
portion of the population suffers from depression so the shame is pointless. We all have problems. She shouldhave gotten help. A good pdoc could have gotten her admitted to the hospital and treated before she ended it.
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #28 - on: 07.06.2018 at 20:41 [UT+1] »BTW: for bio info. - I left churches (in my case, Catholicism) and he with Protestism, aside many years ago, (55at least) as children; and never wished I had done otherwise.
But I still as he does, instead we check ourselves against the life of Jesus for the pattern to live a successful
spiritual life. Some may do the same using any numbers of similar exemplery humans who once lived andtaught. Buddha, Mohammed, etc.
For any who do likewise

Posts: 7377

New International Version from Matthew:"Do not judge, or you too will be judged"
http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-1.htm
I am 1/4 American Indian from the Malacite Tribe (part of Iroquois) in North America.
In the Indian tradition:"Do not judge a man or women unless you've walked a mile in their moccasins" i.e. "their life"means, unless you yourself suffer from mental illness and/or serious depression...
Of course its fair game to judge the actions of a public figure, imo - based on actions, not on belief systems
that are at best biased.
i.e. robbery is theft regardless of someone else's property.
i.e. murder is the taking of a life, you cannot give backi.e. treasonous behaviors for personal gain, is against the Constitution of the United States.
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RainbowKitty

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #29 - on: 07.06.2018 at 20:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Astro Rose on 07.06.2018 at 20:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Chaselifeandlove on 06.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
She died as Venus (her reputation, products, what she was known for) went opposite Pluto. Pluto is not about heaven,people. Pluto and Lilith was conjunct her natal 10th House Mercury, lord of the 11th House of hopes and dreams. 10th
House represented her husband, which is true of a lot of women, even those with stellar careers. It is very hard for a 55
year old woman to be totally rejected (Lilith), dumped by a husband who is probably fantasizing about someone younger,
and facing an unmarried life in old age, when she was accustomed to being married (I wish more men would think about
this, when thinking about divorcing an older lady they are tired of).
Choosing suicide when one has a thirteen year old child is an incredibly selfish act. Her suicide will mark her daughter's life
irrevocably for the rest of her life. I have no sympathy for Kate Spade. I may be the only one to say this on this forum.
The man I am dating is an active duty soldier who defends this country. He is in his fifties. But I can still see how his
mother's suicide when he was fifteen years old has had a permanent impact on him.
My own grandmother attempted suicide three times. She kept trying to kill herself because she was devastated by
miscarriage after miscarriage. Only one live birth resulted in my mother. In her old age, my grandma became a soldier forher grandchildren, after her only daughter died of cancer (a year after her husband died of a heart attack).
Kate Spade, on the other hand, had it all. She chose a more lethal means than my grandma, and managed to pull it off.
Let's stop talking about depression and it's devastating effects, and let's stop talking about how depression can affect even
the wealthiest. The truth is that the wealthiest are weak. If Spade hadn't been such a privileged princess, she would havestuck it out. Spade can't hold a candle to my grandma (now deceased).

That's pretty sad that someone would try to kill herself because she wanted a baby that will pretty much inevitably grow old and die fromdifficult illnesses (babies never consent to be born to begin with). Selfish? Or no?

When I miscarried, thinking about how the child would never have to suffer through life made me feel better.
But the suicide attempts can just be from ptsd. Miscarriages can be a bloody mess and sometimes you even see
the fetus and have to dispose of it. I vote PTSD on this one.
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Debra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #30 - on: 07.06.2018 at 20:45 [UT+1] »So sorry, to hear of this tragic and traumatizing event you went through:Quote:
When I miscarried, thinking about how the child would never have to suffer through life made me feel better. But the suicide attempts canjust be from ptsd. Miscarriages can be a bloody mess and sometimes you even see the fetus and have to dispose of it. I vote PTSD
on this one.

Posts: 7377

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RainbowKitty

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #31 - on: 07.06.2018 at 21:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Debra M. on 07.06.2018 at 20:45 [UT+1]:
So sorry, to hear of this tragic and traumatizing event you went through:Quote:
When I miscarried, thinking about how the child would never have to suffer through life made me feel better. But thesuicide attempts can just be from ptsd. Miscarriages can be a bloody mess and sometimes you even see the fetus andhave to dispose of it. I vote PTSD on this one.

Thank You. I personally have never miscarried naturally. But I know two women who have and both still havenightmares years after. My doctor luckily for me suggested a d&c. It was still awful ( same procedure as a firsttrimester abortion) and I relived a lot of scary memories as I was recovering from that procedure. It’s amazing
what women go through to bring life into the world. If you watch the movie “The help”, a young lady repeatedly
miscarries and hides the remains from her husband in the garden. When she finally tells him what happened,
they plant roses to mark the graves and they grieve together what they never had. She goes on to have ahealthy pregnancy. I can tell from experience that my “ rainbow baby” as they are called, is the only thing that
could have cured my sadness after that loss. And even that was difficult as the reality that life is not guaranteed
haunted my thoughts , still haunts my thoughts actually.
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Debra M.
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #32 - on: 07.06.2018 at 22:50 [UT+1] »Quote from RainbowKitty on 07.06.2018 at 21:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from Debra M. on 07.06.2018 at 20:45 [UT+1]:
So sorry, to hear of this tragic and traumatizing event you went through:Quote:
When I miscarried, thinking about how the child would never have to suffer through life made me feelbetter. But the suicide attempts can just be from ptsd. Miscarriages can be a bloody mess and sometimes
you even see the fetus and have to dispose of it. I vote PTSD on this one.

Posts: 7377

Thank You. I personally have never miscarried naturally. But I know two women who have and both still have nightmares years after. My
doctor luckily for me suggested a d&c. It was still awful ( same procedure as a first trimester abortion) and I relived a lot of scary
memories as I was recovering from that procedure. It’s amazing what women go through to bring life into the world. If you watch themovie “The help”, a young lady repeatedly miscarries and hides the remains from her husband in the garden. When she finally tells him
what happened, they plant roses to mark the graves and they grieve together what they never had. She goes on to have a healthy
pregnancy. I can tell from experience that my “ rainbow baby” as they are called, is the only thing that could have cured my sadness afterthat loss. And even that was difficult as the reality that life is not guaranteed haunted my thoughts , still haunts my thoughts actually.

For some, according to the person's sensitivity nature, etc. I wouldl think it affects them their whole life. My
daughter who died, also had an abortion although I don't know which trimester. I believe with all my heart,that her hormones were affected greatly, and added to the extra burden of hormonal changes after she bore
twins. I can't prove it, but I do believe it in her case. Not to say it was the cause of her mental illness, but
added a great deal as any trauma would to the psyche and the biological body.
We don't know what all happened in life to the designer, Kate Snow., but there is trickles of information now
coming to light.
Her husband said, "she was fine" when I last talked with her. This was not apparently how she REALLY felt
inside.
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Debra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #33 - on: 08.06.2018 at 01:40 [UT+1] »I didn't know whether to start another thread, so until people decide if they want to also add this woman tothe discussion or start a new thread?
Just breaking: News , 33 year old sister of Queen Maxima dead at home:https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/dutch-queens-sister-found-dead-at-buenos-ai reshome/ar-AAyll7M?OCID=ansmsnnews11
Quote:
Posts: 7377

The younger sister of Queen Maxima of the Netherlands has died at her home in the Argentine capital, reports say.
Inés Zorreguieta had been suffering from depression.
She is said to have worked as a civil servant in Buenos Aires.
Tributes were paid to her on an Instagram video her brother Martin posted last year of his "very beautiful and talented little sister" singing
and playing the guitar.
Inés Zorreguieta was 33. It is believed she took her own life. A Dutch government spokesperson told Dutch NOS TV that her deathappeared to be suicide.

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wanderribee
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #34 - on: 08.06.2018 at 10:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Apostrophe on 07.06.2018 at 03:20 [UT+1]:
Quote:“Kate suffered from depression and anxiety for many years. She was actively seeking help and working closelywith her doctors to treat her disease, one that takes far too many lives. We were in touch with her the night
before and she sounded happy. There was no indication and no warning that she would do this. It was acomplete shock. And it clearly wasn’t her. There were personal demons she was battling,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/style/kate-spade-husband-andy-spade.html

Posts: 1197
Gender:"working closely with her doctors" = pharmaceutical medications which CAUSE SUICIDAL
THOUGHTS. Drugs only cover up symptoms, cause dependency and then cause the See-Saw
effect, ultimately making symptoms WORSE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepressants_and_suicide_risk
With Chiron currently in Aries, we are all being initiated and tested in the realm of HOLISTIC healing for our bodies and minds. We mustall be in control of our own bodies, not let so called doctors harm us even more. Nutrition, getting enough sleep in harmony with Circadian
Rhythms, exercise, avoidance of environmental toxins and ALL drugs, and most importantly good talk therapy to reach the root of thedepression.
Sorry to hear about your terrible ordeal Debra. I have several friends who have lost children and they have also gone through a living hell.
God bless you.

I tend to agree Apostrophe having tried that road twice in my life when there was no family support or anyone
I felt safe to talk to without critiscm but forutnately the pills didnt work and Im still here happier and the best I
have been so far. I was blessed to find the begnning of self awareness group and one lady who tolerated mycraziness for almost 4 years. I have 3 ageing friend sall on anti depressants but they all refuse to look within
and would rather escape at the expense of the damage to their bodies and their minds. All 3 while not in a
wallowing state have no desire to do much or to investigate other alternatives so this is their choice but it
hurts to watch them slowly deatroy themselves when maybe some counselling or self help might clear whateverthought patterns - usually grief or anger at some early life event - controsl them. Saturn is often such a big
inticator in these lives and if faced can be the start of healing and a hwole new life that is able to cope withwhatever the problem is/was.
It never made sense to me that suiced used to be unlawful and you could be prosecuted if you lived ????????
certainly in the uk until the early 60's. Never coudl work that one out. if you have never expereinced thismindset then there is absolutely no undertanding of what a person is going through and judegment of those
who do take this road is not helpful from a social point of view which doesn't help to support people havng
this mindset.
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IP LoggedOutlook

Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #35 - on: 08.06.2018 at 10:34 [UT+1] »Quote from Astro Rose on 07.06.2018 at 20:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Chaselifeandlove on 06.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
She died as Venus (her reputation, products, what she was known for) went opposite Pluto. Pluto is not about heaven,people. Pluto and Lilith was conjunct her natal 10th House Mercury, lord of the 11th House of hopes and dreams. 10th
House represented her husband, which is true of a lot of women, even those with stellar careers. It is very hard for a 55
year old woman to be totally rejected (Lilith), dumped by a husband who is probably fantasizing about someone younger,
and facing an unmarried life in old age, when she was accustomed to being married (I wish more men would think about
this, when thinking about divorcing an older lady they are tired of).
Choosing suicide when one has a thirteen year old child is an incredibly selfish act. Her suicide will mark her daughter's life
irrevocably for the rest of her life. I have no sympathy for Kate Spade. I may be the only one to say this on this forum.
The man I am dating is an active duty soldier who defends this country. He is in his fifties. But I can still see how his
mother's suicide when he was fifteen years old has had a permanent impact on him.
My own grandmother attempted suicide three times. She kept trying to kill herself because she was devastated by
miscarriage after miscarriage. Only one live birth resulted in my mother. In her old age, my grandma became a soldier forher grandchildren, after her only daughter died of cancer (a year after her husband died of a heart attack).
Kate Spade, on the other hand, had it all. She chose a more lethal means than my grandma, and managed to pull it off.
Let's stop talking about depression and it's devastating effects, and let's stop talking about how depression can affect even
the wealthiest. The truth is that the wealthiest are weak. If Spade hadn't been such a privileged princess, she would havestuck it out. Spade can't hold a candle to my grandma (now deceased).

That's pretty sad that someone would try to kill herself because she wanted a baby that will pretty much inevitably grow old and die fromdifficult illnesses (babies never consent to be born to begin with). Selfish? Or no?

Don’t be harsh people! It was her choice. Her daughter knew coming in their time together would be short.
She agreed and accepted...all the family knew... seems like her sister is the only one with vague
memory.....and besides that the daughter has her lessons which would not have been possible in the protective
shade of a loving protective mother. There are NO accidents. We don’t know the reason she chose to returnhome but it was time to go and thoughts were given her to show her the way home. She couldn’t wait for the
body to self destruct....her time to return was up and a reminder wake-up alarm was given her...by her. Could
be she is one who has the choice to come and go at will....then, birth and death is hers to take. A mark of anadvanced soul.
Could well be the only reason she was here was to spend a little time with her daughter preparing her way
forward. Maybe the daughter is her charge and she needed to teach her something she was to use onward.
Who knows?
We know nothing. Judgmental attitudes point to our inadequacy.

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clairea

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #36 - on: 08.06.2018 at 11:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Isis Madonna on 06.06.2018 at 05:19 [UT+1]:
Also feel for the daughter.

FmI & ImF. Maybe oblivion was more attractive? I know that when Michael
F was present. I like to think she's gone to the angels.

I know the orbs are wide but there is a double whammy ofJackson passed away, Liz Green noted how

Posts: 760
Gender:Just saying, Isis

My mum had transiting Fm natal I exactly when she died, naturally in old age.
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #37 - on: 08.06.2018 at 17:10 [UT+1] »Another Celebrity took his own life. Successful long running chef, Food Show on Cable TV, Anthony Bourdain,took his own life yesterday. He was 61 and said to have been very depressed.
No word on physical illness or whatever it was that sent him over the edge yet. I watched him once in awhile,
but not too often, as I don't cook. He was always joking and had an easy personality to communicate tovarious cultures and their varied ways of life and food they ate.
He went to Iran, Israel, Palestine, the whole of the Middle East, to South America, to Indonesia, China, etc.
Very versatile man and I thought, (even though I don't cook), this versatility made him interesting indeed.
Once he even met President Obama for a night of dining somewhere in a foreign country.
Posts: 7377

He and his show were in France when his producer found him:

CNN's Anthony Bourdain dead at 61
Quote:
Anthony Bourdain, the chef and gifted storyteller who took TV viewers around the world to explore culture, cuisine and the humancondition for nearly two decades, has died. He was 61.
CNN confirmed Bourdain's death on Friday and said the cause of death was suicide.
Bourdain was in France working on an upcoming episode of his award-winning CNN series, "Parts Unknown." His close friend Eric Ripert,
the French chef, found Bourdain unresponsive in his hotel room Friday morning.
"It is with extraordinary sadness we can confirm the death of our friend and colleague, Anthony Bourdain," the network said in astatement Friday morning. "His love of great adventure, new friends, fine food and drink and the remarkable stories of the world madehim a unique storyteller.
"His talents never ceased to amaze us and we will miss him very much. Our thoughts and prayers are with his daughter and family at thisincredibly difficult time.""Tony was an exceptional talent," CNN President Jeff Zucker said in an email to employees. "Tony will be greatly missed not only for his
work but also for the passion with which he did it."
Fans, fellow chefs, celebrities and friends reacted with stunned sorrow.

Remembering the life of Anthony Bourdain
Quote:"My heart breaks for Tony Bourdain," CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour wrote on Twitter. "May he rest in peacenow.
"He was a friend, a collaborator, and family. A huge personality, a giant talent, a unique voice, and deeply, deeply human. My heart goesout to his daughter and family, and his longtime partners and friends at (production company) ZPZ."

His natal chart (no tob known):
https://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Anthony_Bourdain
to the far right of this page, some personal information on Anthony, (may he now R.I.P.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Bourdain

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #38 - on: 08.06.2018 at 17:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Debra M. on 08.06.2018 at 17:10 [UT+1]:
Another Celebrity took his own life....
No word on physical illness or whatever....

Posts: 2454

History of substance abuse.
We have another 7 years of Neptune in Pisces.

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merrymischief

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #39 - on: 08.06.2018 at 17:52 [UT+1] »edit here: deleted prior paragraph after reflection and observing Aries Moon and current transits today. theremaining ending is still relevant.

Posts: 2735
Gender:May her passing and all the many many others prior be healed on the other side, and their loved ones findpeace and loving support.
May those who read about suicide reach out and accept help to move forward in healing the pain.
blessings,
mmBack to top

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #40 - on: 08.06.2018 at 18:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Apostrophe on 08.06.2018 at 17:41 [UT+1]:
Quote from Debra M. on 08.06.2018 at 17:10 [UT+1]:
Another Celebrity took his own life....
No word on physical illness or whatever....

History of substance abuse.
We have another 7 years of Neptune in Pisces.

Posts: 7377

I was reading his bio on Wikipedia, and the types and amounts of drugs he consumed (in the past?), wereincredible. Many labeled as hard drugs and mind altering.
Born June 25, 1956 - New Yorkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Bourdain
I noticed MM left out mental illness, as my daughter developed over time, a serious multiple type of mental
illnesses, likely fated to be eventually, (imo), but perhaps treatable too. We'll never know now.
Quote:
Reply #39 - on: Today at 17:52 [UT+1] » Quote Suicide is intense topic in multiple ways; it is form of violence to self in essence, never
the less, it is a choice via free will humans have

Its best to never finger point or find blame or fault when it comes to these things, there may be corresponding
catalysts, which send people even with severe mental problems, "over the edge"...This MAY be the WHY ofsome suicides being called, "out of their right mind". Not thinking clearly for whatever serious reasons there
might be present.
At least she has found the peace this lovely soul deserved all along. Her last message to a sister was "I loved
too much". This after a few years (our time) of the life review. An imbalance likely of giving too much over andover again may have been a "contributing factor" too. Venus in sacrificial Pisces, makes me cringe now,
especially with N in the 1st hs..
God does not hold it against a soul when they are not equipped! [Edgar Cayce] and some as the one he readfor, was "far too sensitive for this world" and its harsher vibrations. So too, my youngest daughter seems tohave fit this mould.
At birth she lacked oxygen for a few crucial first minutes. I'm convinced that started the brain function whichthen created a later serious mental abberation. Using the Tad Mann age progression triggers, N registered forher at one month of age, which happens to be the date of her NDE in her crib. (crib death its called, but her
father managed to bring her back) and she was cold as ice in the crib when he found her.
NEVER presume we know it all when it comes to Astrology (my admonition"New Vision of Astrology") either!

http://www.atmann.net/tma.htm
or : "Toward a New Astrology" (occasionally seen available used on Amazon) as its OOP.
Ry Redd created a new computerized program used today, after his untimely early death, when computers werein their infancy using the Cayce readings as a pattern for Tropical and Sidereal connections for the soul (basedon the readings)
Quote:"Toward a New Astrology" by the late Ry Redd
When Margaret Gammon’s Astrology and the Edgar Cayce Readings was first published in 1967, many interested in Cayce’s readings
learned for the first time that he recommended an astrology referred to as “Persian.” There was very little available at that time on
ancient astrological practices, and the references to Persian astrology remained something of a mystery. Gammon’s book was republishedin 1998 along with chapters by W.H. Church in Edgar Cayce’s Astrology for the Soul.
Other books later mentioned Cayce’s references to a Persian system with the general conclusion that Persian astrology referred to asidereal zodiac. Ry Redd (Toward a New Astrology, Inner Vision Publishing Company, 1985) suggested that the Indian system derived fromthe Persian since India has always used a sidereal zodiac measured from the stars. However, Cayce stated that the Persian system was a
combination of the Egyptian, Persian and Indian.

NEVER judge another harshly, and always give the benefit of the doubt when you do, "just not, lest ye be
judged" was the admonition from Christ given with love. Likely, a karmic debt when we do.
These might be good ideas to at least consider. Even if one does not adopt and become more versatile in one's
thinking.

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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #41 - on: 08.06.2018 at 18:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Astro Rose on 07.06.2018 at 20:00 [UT+1]:
Veganism, EMDR therapy and Prozac helped me a lot (and still is) when my SR

fB was in the 4th. Can there be a balance? "Big

Pharma" ain't that bad and not all holistic methods are good.

I'm only giving my opinion as a forum member, not a "professional" in this matrix of 3D illusion we call thematerial world. I do have a BSc in Psychology.
Posts: 2454

Veganism can be dodgy, because it's difficult to get any vitamin B12, which is only found in meat, yeast andseaweed, and this vitamin is essential for NERVE health. Nutritional requirements aside, if someone is goingvegan for moral reasons, fair enough, but we humans do so much other damage to nature and the animal
world besides killing animals for food, we really shouldn't feel guilty about eating the occasional free range
chicken, in my opinion.
I had to Google EMDR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing
If it works, good!
The last thing I want to do is scare someone who is already accustomed to a daily dose of pharmaceuticals, so
I'll let you do the research yourself, if you don't already know this information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoxetine#Discontinuation_syndrome
But as others have mentioned, the most important part of therapy, whether it includes chemicals and/or
vitamins or not is the TALKING. You can't have healing until you dig up and face the original wound - whether
that came from a parent, society or our own karma. You know the story astrologically speaking - heavy Scorpio
and Pluto territory; we don't blame, we just unravel and forgive.
We also can't blame astrological transits, progressions, solar returns for anything. One of the most important
astro-spiritual concepts is that we have the birthcharts we do because they are an opportunity - to create withthe easy aspects and use the difficult ones as a springboard for power. The saddest thing about our current
society in the West, in my opinion, is that we have lost touch with this spiritual, psychological knowledge. We
are in a no-man's land between the Piscean Age of religion and the Aquarian Age of meditation. Maybe Eckhart
Tolle would help, if you haven't read his work already.
Good luck, and all the best.

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Catsratz

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #42 - on: 08.06.2018 at 21:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Debra M. on 07.06.2018 at 19:07 [UT+1]:
Sorry to hear this, so Aug. 24th, is always a rather somber time for you I suppose or do you communicate in the dream state with any ofthem?

I haven't, and that would be so cool. These people died that died: Father in 1964, John (the 15-year-old
mentioned) in 1995, and the woman I grew up with, who I consider my mother, in 1998.
Although my dreams don't make sense - it's so rarely I get an Oh! moment - I enjoy them and have seen all ormost of the above-mentioned people in them. But very seldom. Mostly it's about somewhere I've lived (I havea thread on here listing all the times I've moved, around 60) OR about somewhere I've worked. Many of them,too, of course.
Sometimes I know it's this person (not one mentioned above) but they don't look the same. My dreams are
pretty bizarre, but I love them. Recently I got a recent book about dreams, but it was pretty much the stuff
you see in the checkout lines and not their mechanisms or scientific findings. Very disappointed, there. The
only other type of consistent dreams I've had was for a couple years of leaving Tennessee, where wind storms
did me some damage. Very scary, too: if one heads your way, and they change direction often - good luck.
And my dreams never happen even twice in a row, like the ones that might foretell an airplane crash or otherimpending disaster. I have dreamt a few times about driving with my car having no brakes and I was powerless
to control it. THAT I can figure out!
Though an atheist since birth and happy to be one, I saw the ghost of the 15-year-old boy NOT in a dream.
Which is not religion-related anyway. And no, I don't smoke anything. I have also had a couple ofsupernatural experiences. Astrology itself is supernatural and I only somewhat believe in it. Just enough tokeep me hanging around.
PS Nice to see you're Native American. They are my very favorite people. I'm a little bit into their stuff, likethe powerful Number 4 - which includes the month I was born, into Taurus.
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #43 - on: 08.06.2018 at 21:25 [UT+1] »Catsratz: Thanks for the info you shared here. I sent you a PM regarding Dreams you may find interesting.

Quote:
Ref: « Reply #42 - on: Today at 21:11 [UT+1] » Quote Quote from Debra M. on Yesterday at 19:07 [UT+1]:
I haven't, and that would be so cool. These people died that died: Father in 1964, John (the 15-year-old mentioned) in 1995, and thewoman I grew up with, who I consider my mother, in 1998.
p.s. I just tried, but you are not accepting PMs. You can always write to me if you'd like to, or allow a one time
Posts: 7377

PM I suppose?
Deb.

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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #44 - on: 08.06.2018 at 22:01 [UT+1] »I don't want to comment on this person's death, per se. But I have to say that thru the years, watching suicide
after suicide of (what the world would consider) successful, influential (and wealthy) people, forces me torecognize that these "things" are not the things that make one happy. Happy people do not kill themselves. So
if success, wealth, popularity, financial security do not "do it" - well, then what the hell DOES???
Posts: 17033

This question is rhetorical; as I have told many many people throughout the years who have come to me with"values" issues - MONEY and SUCCESS issues....."maybe you are working in the wrong field" - meaning "field"
as a physical place; as in "walking down the wrong road"......
This is such a basic problem. Assuming that "if I have that which everyone believes are the "things" whichmake one happy, I will be happy.
It only takes one reading of a book like "Creative Visualization" to have an epiphany about "what I really want."
When people don't know what THEY THEMSELVES really WANT then they work at getting what is "said to bevaluable."This a a Venus issue and a very big topic...which I have tried to bring to the forum many times.
But the big discussion is yet to be a reality.
If VENUS is not satisfied....is not developed....then everything else is just decoration.
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merrymischief

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #45 - on: 08.06.2018 at 22:55 [UT+1] »Wow. I am editing my prior post as it seems to have fueled more discourse which was NOT my intention. I havetalked friends and family out of suicide and personally deal with PTSD etc; indeed I was crying thinking about
the many I have known personally who have crossed over via suicide; the ones which pull at my heart the most
Posts: 2735
Gender:are the people who I talked to the day prior, and had concerns
One loved one commented, you always know
when I am feeling suicide; I had to cut the cord and gently tell them I could not continue to be responsible for
their safety via m intuition, and would pray for them or take them to Doctor, therapist, or Spiritual Counselor if
I was able. One person even went to ER, they released them, and the next day I heard they were gone. What
could have I done or was there something else I could have done/said to help them, etc. Many sessions spent
on working to NOT take responsibility for other's actions; nor is it about blaming the victim or shaming them.
They are dead now and need prayer and healing as much or more than while they were on Earthplane.
I have reached out to others when I needed help, tried various medications, therapy and Hospital stays and was
blessed to have the help esp when at one horrible dark moment a very loving hand (spiritual hand not physical)
covered and sheltered me, saying in my ear, "I am here, you are not alone."
Of course mental illness and treatment are important along with awareness, education, and prevention.
Astrology can be helpful for some who are seeking answers to their life/trouble in addition to other sources ofhelp. Deb, I am very sorry your daughter passed in the way she did, we have discussed this before, and if you
feel I was being judgemental, then I am listening and have edited my prior post, yet wonder are you now
judging me or projecting your own deep deep loss?
Sigh. how many days until New Moon
peace and blessingsmm

USA Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
Other Suicide Hotlines: www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.hmtl

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melekusha
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #46 - on: 08.06.2018 at 23:19 [UT+1] »https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/08/us/anthony-bourdain-obit/index.html....
.....is too many to loose
Posts: 2425
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #47 - on: 09.06.2018 at 00:04 [UT+1] »mm: MerryMischief:Thanks for editing to include "mental illness" as a true reality all too often seen in our world and dismissed bymany. Too many. That is all I was talking about, not talking about you in particular, only that you omitted
mentioning mental illness as one possible reason for suicides among others. I know you are an empathetic
person mm.
I wrote a book about Jess experiences and ours with her , I think I told you too.
Posts: 7377

I recall in the feedback that an author gets from Amazon, one person said she got a lot out of the book (which
always makes me glad to hear,as others who read it did too; because I do hope to help others in the telling of
this painful story), however, she also said something like she would have rated it higher except I didn't givereferences to where/what/how meaning, where to go for help. It didn't cross my mind that others didn't see
where they could go or know; only that Suicide hotlines are available in the States and elsewhere. Always there
have been nice people, willing to volunteer their time to help others. My middle daughter did that with herspare time when she was young, helped on a Teen hotline. Thats one thing we areSo, you can't please all the people all the time, as they say, only we try.
My book was about Suicide about my own family's experience and struggles with mental illness that my
youngest daughter and the downward spiral within the context of mental illness and lack of real help
from the police who although they take such requests seriously, do not or did not in our case,do a "follow up"
as we requested while she was on the road for a "lost weekend". Once the person tells the police, "oh I'm fine, I
won't harm myself" all too often they are believed to be okay. Outwardly, as with Bourdain, you cannot tella person is going to check out, and even mentally ill people can fool you and do all the time. They often"appear" rational and sane. I recall heartbroken, I called the police dept and of course it was the weekend
and he was off of work. I left him a message, and told him what happened to her and that my husband
begged him to check on her for the weekend if he would. He said he would but obviously did not and now it
was too late.
It may have been because she moved around quite a bit that last weekend. Many miles in other words. One
horary astrologer picked that up in his reading of "last seen" or a horary I posted then.
He mentioned the driving almost in a dizzying pace although I don't think I saved that post and she ended up
in another State far from home.
The book seemed to help a few who commented which delighted me, but it was really for her twin daughters asthat was my original plan and reason for doing it. They haven't seen it yet, they were too young.
I hoped others would be aided too by anything I might add regarding mental illness in the context of how
Jessie really was let down by the entire mental health community when she checked herself in the suicide
ideation in January (she went seriously big- time down hill from January to August of that year) the hospital
released her and did not allow parents, only the husband in a consultation. I wrote about the legal reasons whythat was (the laws in our country, some of them based on outdated and outlandish things too) It was intended
to also be a help for other parents, siblings, etc. only in so far as what can happen and not what WILL happen,
as well as how it contrasted to European countries which were far ahead of us in some respects. Our medical
system is sorely in need of much work.
I wrote how in contrast, the celebrity who is very wealthy i.e. singer, Britney Spears, had a mental breakdown ayear before my daughter's hospital stay; but her parents were able to get a quick court order over the"caretaker/man/signficant other/manager" who lived in the home with Britney.
I am not sure if her legal husband at that time Kevin Federline acquiesced to that proceeding or perhaps heworked with the parents to help save Brittney?
We had no such help (as parents) nor any rights...although we tried just as hard to no avail.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/timeline-britneys-meltdown/
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Spears,_Britney
The Spears-Federline divorce became final on July 30 2007.
Quote:
Twice in early 2008 she seemed to suffer from severe episodes of mental illness.
After only two years of marriage, she filed for divorce from Kevin Federline on November 7, 2006 in Los Angeles. She was often in thenews for increasingly bizarre and often self-destructive behavior. On February 16, 2007, she walked into a just-closed beauty salon
demanding to have her head shorn. A few days later she admitted herself to a rehabilitation center, left for one day and then re-entered.
She had reportedly suffered a breakdown that was attributed to post-partum depression, alcohol, and/or drugs.

I'm not an expert by any means and still grapple with my own pain . But I am a very compassionate soul andperhaps it takes as my mother always taught, (a wise Ai Bg h Rising), experience with the same thing tounderstand. Not sure, but probably through many lifetimes. Words just don't cut it. It takes experience.
Thanks for understanding. I KNEW you didn't mean any harm. I just feel the mentally ill aren't given a fairchance in our country.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #48 - on: 09.06.2018 at 00:15 [UT+1] »It is very common and probably inevitable that those close to a person who has ended their own life for reasons
other than impending death or debilitation from disease, to blame themselves or at least question whether theend result would be the same had they "done something different."

Posts: 17033

This is a real waste of energy and very masochistic. What can be going on in the head of a person who has
decided that no matter how much they are loved and how much they have in the way of success & what they have in this world it is just not worth going on one more day?
It's a mystery. Because some of it is phsysiological as well as emotional....sometimes it is mental....in the caseof Robin Williams it turned out he had a very rare condition which would render him helpless.....
the problem is that the person must reach out and ask for help beyond a prescription for a drug. Sure, there isdrug therapy which can alleviate some symptoms....IF the reason for the condition IS,, in fact, the reason the
person has the deep depression. In Robin Williams case he took YEARS worth of medication which did not help
him because he was not diagnosed until it was too late. Who knows if those years of improper medication
didn't exacerbate the condition!!
Point is, no one person is responsible for the mental health of another. Plenty of people have horrible luck andterrible lives and face it and hope for periods of better times. Most of us have had loss and sorrow anddepression and bad luck.....but something keeps us going. What? We just don't know.
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melekusha

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #49 - on: 09.06.2018 at 00:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 08.06.2018 at 22:01 [UT+1]:
I don't want to comment on this person's death, per se. But I have to say that thru the years, watching suicide after suicide of (what theworld would consider) successful, influential (and wealthy) people, forces me to recognize that these "things" are not the things that makeone happy. Happy people do not kill themselves. So if success, wealth, popularity, financial security do not "do it" - well, then what thehell DOES???

Posts: 2425
Gender:This question is rhetorical; as I have told many many people throughout the years who have come to me with "values" issues - MONEY
and SUCCESS issues....."maybe you are working in the wrong field" - meaning "field" as a physical place; as in "walking down the wrongroad"......
This is such a basic problem. Assuming that "if I have that which everyone believes are the "things" which make one happy, I will behappy.
It only takes one reading of a book like "Creative Visualization" to have an epiphany about "what I really want."
When people don't know what THEY THEMSELVES really WANT then they work at getting what is "said to be valuable."This a a Venus issue and a very big topic...which I have tried to bring to the forum many times.
But the big discussion is yet to be a reality.
If VENUS is not satisfied....is not developed....then everything else is just decoration.
LainieVery in depth insight. .......
Would love to read your thoughts on it
Kindly thank you in advance(Ps don't mean to sound super pleaser. ....I'm here to learn also )Back to top

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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #50 - on: 09.06.2018 at 00:28 [UT+1] »Maybe I will begin a thread about Venus and 'what we want.'
LainiePosts: 17033

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melekusha

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #51 - on: 09.06.2018 at 00:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 09.06.2018 at 00:28 [UT+1]:
Maybe I will begin a thread about Venus and 'what we want.'
LainiePosts: 2425
Gender:Yes please and with in depth intuition

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #52 - on: 09.06.2018 at 01:02 [UT+1] »mm and others who study horary may recognize what John Somoza read at that time for me when Jess was"missing":
It turned out to be quite accurate in detail so I saved it all these years. I haven't looked at it again until now.
It was on the Horary forum back in August of 2008. Perhaps I should also post the chart. The autopsy
concluded she died the night of the 27th or early morning of 28th.

Posts: 7377

Modern Horary Astrological Points
Quote:The mind of the individual is ruled by the 3rd house with Sagittarius on the cusp
Apparently she traveled during this time
Ruler of Sagittarius is Jupiter who is retrograde and in the sign of its fall, Capricorn.
So her mind was not there
This is confirmed by Mercury, natural ruler of the 3rd and the mind sitting in the 12th. The house of illusion, delusion and confusion. This
12th house of Pisces is ruled by Jupiter and Neptune.
Add to that Mercury who is opposing Uranus in Pisces. (in the house of her health)
And the Moon's last conjunction was with Uranus.
You now start to understand the mind of the individual. If she overcomes this period of confusion she may never know herself why thishappen.
But I don't see that happening. The outcome of any house is the 4th house counting counterclockwise.
The 4th house from the 3rd house of the mind is the 6th with Uranus in Pisces there and Pisces is also on the cusp.
Bottom line here is this woman has severe mental problems and there does not appear to be any solution at this time.

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thelivingsky

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #53 - on: 09.06.2018 at 03:01 [UT+1] »The transit that I see that were very troublesome in recent weeks, and currently:

Posts: 1419

EJ over her C, M was in there for a while too a couple weeks ago.
EJM also squared her own M during this transit.
S.Node AND E on her G the day of the suicide
Orcus at 7 Virgo squaring her B and in the big t-square with OJF
M with J is a very dark, brooding influence. Add E in the mix and Eris is also square E now.

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #54 - on: 09.06.2018 at 04:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Chaselifeandlove on 06.06.2018 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
Kate Spade, on the other hand, had it all.

Posts: 119
Gender:

You simply cannot know that. Moreover, what in the world does "all" mean?
Quote:
Let's stop talking about depression and it's devastating effects, and let's stop talking about how depression can affect even the wealthiest.
The truth is that the wealthiest are weak. If Spade hadn't been such a privileged princess, she would have stuck it out.

I can't help but wonder what the astrology might be for such a bizarre, cruel, unfeeling and obnoxiously
judgmental opinion. No one can ever know what's going on behind another person's closed doors, and we all
have closed doors.
Suicide is intensely personal and no two suicides are alike. If we cannot find it in our hearts and minds to bekind to those who were suffering beyond comprehension, then perhaps we shouldn't say anything at all. There
are more people here who've lost loved ones to suicide than we know. It's vicious to attack the dead if only
because in so doing, those left to grieve are also attacked. What if all your references to Kate Spade were
replaced with references to your grandmother? Maybe it wouldn't bother you, but either way, it sure seems
cruel to me.
In other news...
Quote from Apostrophe on 08.06.2018 at 18:27 [UT+1]:
Veganism can be dodgy, because it's difficult to get any vitamin B12, which is only found in meat, yeast and seaweed, and this vitamin isessential for NERVE health. Nutritional requirements aside, if someone is going vegan for moral reasons, fair enough, but we humans do
so much other damage to nature and the animal world besides killing animals for food, we really shouldn't feel guilty about eating theoccasional free range chicken, in my opinion.

It's just not that hard. I've been vegan for nearly 30 years and have no problems with B12. Some people do,some don't. It's not a universal thing. Not one of my vegan friends has ever had a B12 deficiency. B12 is also
found in fermented foods, although some sources say it's not fully reliable while other sources say it is.
::shrug:: I do have a problem with iron because my body doesn't utilize it properly. It's not about diet, since
this is a lifelong problem and I ate meat for about half my life. Even meateating doctors admit that it isn't
possible for me to eat enough of any food to get sufficient iron. And my point with that is simply that blanket
statements can be, um, dodgy. Vitamin, mineral, enzyme, etc. deficiencies are individual. B12 is made frombacteria, so it's not necessary to get it from other animals, making it easyeasy to get plenty of B12. Vegans
don't need to watch their diets any more than meateaters...it's just different. (Btw, veganism is always basedon the morality of using other animals for our pleasure. Vegetarianism can be based on health, environmental
concerns and/or moral issues.)
I'm posting this because I think astrology has to be based on facts, not assumptions. Just as the discussion
about Robin Williams needed facts, not assumptions. (He also had Lewy Body Disease, a horrible form ofdementia.)
Here is my father's chart. He took his own life on Sept. 6, 1956. TOB is utter guesswork, so feel free to playwith it if you're so inclined.
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astro_w2gw_reid.10667.15615.png

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Linda Harris

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #55 - on: 09.06.2018 at 19:35 [UT+1] »There is a lot of sadness, frustration and "no outlet" issues in this chart. I think he was not a happy man. I
mean possibly genetically depressed. On the other hand, world events and personal dead ends are also
probable core issues. The only fire in his chart (which often keeps us going beyond the pain) is Saturn in latePosts: 17033

Aries.....and it conjuncts the Sun. And the Sun itself has NO really supportive or lucky aspects. I think hewould have liked to be more educated.....more knowledgeable. There might have been some deep seatedinferiority issues which higher ed might have modified.
Those inconjuncts exist no matter what time of day he was born.
And it's possible he had major medical issues that he kept secret or was in denial about.
What do you think?
LainieBack to top

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Debra M.
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #56 - on: 09.06.2018 at 21:01 [UT+1] »Father Reid, had a front seat ticket to world Wars, a different era that does horrendous things to a man's
psyche I'm sure. Consider for example, his fated, "North Node" in the 10th house of public life, m Mercury andwhat the late fixed star Astrologer Diana Rosenberg said about this fixed star of infamy:
Diana Rosenberg Algol and Soldiers:“Though it is often found in the horoscopes of criminals, having Algol prominent on a nativity does notnecessarily mean one will commit or experience violence, it is rather that one will not be able to remain aloof
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from that level of human experience and will be led to come to terms with it in some manner. (**she isreferencing here, as found in many crimes charts for example, especially surrounding deaths, but also shementioned, not exclusively however; ) as here are other possibilities someone might experience an Algol type ofexperience in their lives:"A journalist may be assigned to cover tragedies….a medical student may be assigned to a trauma center (inmedicine the treatment of pain is called Algology!), a soldier witnesses terrible slaughter, a war veteran suffers
flashbacks; an Algol placement compels confrontation and assimilation of these harsh aspects of humanexperience…Under the influence of Perseus, whose head and arm are here, they desire to make a difference,with the idea of “rescuing” people, social groups or nations from their ills”.
[the late Diana Rosenberg from her original Blog]
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #57 - on: 09.06.2018 at 21:28 [UT+1] »for anyone who studied the Maraka houses (2nd, 7th, and sometimes the 12th & 8th as indicative of types ofdeath); I ran Reid's whole signs Sidereal chart to compare with the hundreds I've done for comparison sake,(including my own daughter) who likewise, had as Reid does, a watery ASC in the latter degrees of the sign.
Usually, my rudimentary understanding, (and it is rudimentary at best), is that when found in this degree, often
brings a shorter life span and often too, results in death at birth or near that time.
I mentioned that my own daughter had her Tropical N in the 1st house and when I ran the Tad Mann renderingof when Chiron would have been triggered for her, it was within the first 2 months. I mentioned too, that we
Posts: 7377

are convinced she "left the body" as in NDE we called back then, a Crib Death who was brought back...) perhaps
her soul was attempting to leave then just as when she was born and the pediatrician in the hospital called me
at home inquiring "how was the baby doing"....they kept her for "observation" but never informed me as to
WHY that was, and were were just anxious to believe only the best about this beautiful infant as to being
healthy and released within hours of this observation at the hospital after birth. None of my other 2 children
before her, were "observed" and taken away for this upon leaving. That worried me, but he was very reassuring,
it would only be for her "high fever" they wanted to watch out . Years later I always thought back to this.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that she TOO had the last degrees of a water sign Rising in the Sidereal Whole
house chart.
I collected various informations on the Gandanta and can't recall from where - but it may have been simply acompilation and then translated into my own feeble understanding of the phenomenon:
Gandanta points are transitions between water and fire signs in Vedic astrology. These are 29 degrees
Pisces to 0 degrees Aries, 29 degrees Scorpio to 0 degrees Sagittarius, and 29 degrees Cancer to 0 degrees
Leo.
I didn't use these words however, (maya, or reference Yogananda)" These points are associated with a lack of boundaries, specifically the boundary from the earthly to spiritual
realm. Thus having one or more of these points is extremely favourable for tremendous spiritual growth andprogress in this lifetime, cutting through the veil of maya and having a profound transformation that impacts
your life and the lives of many people around you both directly and indirectly. It makes a person intuitive,
mystical, and more connected with subtle energy. It is an exclusive door into another dimension, and powerfulfor spiritual discernment.
From Braha, James? " To give an example, Paramahansa Yogananda, author of Autobiography of a Yogi, had
Mercury at 29 degrees Scorpio in Jyestha nakshatra."
These illuminating times of boundary crossing into increased wisdom can be predicted when an outer planet
such as Pluto, Neptune, Uranus, Saturn, or Jupiter make a close transiting aspect to the gandanta point. At thistime, the person will have a chance to untie the knots of karma that leads them to a major breakthrough inconsciousness level. However the process can be linked with considerable trauma, struggle, and upheaval,maybe even a dark night of the soul.
(When fire is going into a water sign) or water to fire a transformation is coming….
Its another way of looking perhaps at a critical Ascendant within a Vedic perspective.
Out of perhaps 100 or so charts I studied for the Maraka houses, planets positions, etc and the Ascendant(Gandanta degree charts were only numbered in the few) In these fewer cases, all had died young except for
one woman I came across that I still have no explanation for it being the exception so apparently, its NOT ahard and fast rule!
The lady is the almost 100 year old actress, Betty White With her, I'm perplexed, but I don't haveanyone to ask about this either, because Vedic Astrolgoers true to their holy scriptures do not take one thing

and isolate it as my attempt to study the Maraka only did.

Back to top« Last Edit: 10.06.2018 at 16:20 [UT+1] by Debra M. »IP LoggedDebra M.

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #58 - on: 09.06.2018 at 21:37 [UT+1] »So, right or wrong and certainly not within the acceptable framework of Vedic Study, what I see here are thefollowing in the Sidereal,-Whole Signs only - natal chart for Reid. A Ghandanta ASC in water with a Maraka
house ruling planets of both the 7th and the 8th being G.
Notice where G this so-called "killing planet" falls and in opposition to the all important B in Vedic, whichhappens to also be the lord of the ASC. Likewise, the maraka planet G m A in the house of our publicpersonnae, and also n B. By anyone's estimation, I'd think it not be favorable for a longer and healthy life,
HOWEVER, eheck out Betty White, the 96 yr of spry actress similar chart below.
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The best I can do when comparing Reid to that of Betty White's similar chart is to point out that (for the sakeof argument, saying it was "tweaked" to the 27th -28th° Cancer Rising ASC) ...Her ruling maraka houses like
Ried's 2nd is A (not counted a a maraka planet), and the 7th which IS counted, is G same as the 8th house(speaks of longevity), ruler lord.
Now, Saturn (for the sake of argument) is also known as a planet of long life or older people, more mature.
Saturn in our example for Reid and the Maraka ruler planet for both Reid & Betty White (who is at least 96 now
and quite healthy on TV shows);...showing no hint of slowing down either. But Saturn plays a big role forboth of these people.
Yet for Reid, his G falls into the 10th and as mentioned earlier, also n B along with A m G . (use theseplanets now as a language)
They are now doing so well as with Betty White's Saturn. Her Saturn is p C m B as well, her P.O.F. which I also
add is p her ASC whereas for Reid, his P.O.F. does the opposite for him and n his all important ASC.
presumably, guaranteeing a short life.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/White,_Betty

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wanderribee

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #59 - on: 10.06.2018 at 04:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Debra M. on 09.06.2018 at 21:28 [UT+1]:
for anyone who studied the Maraka houses (2nd, 7th, and sometimes the 12th & 8th as indicative of types of death); I ran Reid's wholesigns Sidereal chart to compare with the hundreds I've done for comparison sake, (including my own daughter) who likewise, had as Reid
does, a watery ASC in the latter degrees of the sign. Usually, my rudimentary understanding, (and it is rudimentary at best), is that whenfound in this degree, often brings a shorter life span and often too, results in death at birth or near that time.
I mentioned that my own daughter had her Tropical

N in the 1st house and when I ran the Tad Mann rendering of when Chiron would havebeen triggered for her, it was within the first 2 months. I mentioned too, that we are convinced she "left the body" as in NDE we calledback t hen, a Crib Death who was brought back...) perhaps her soul was attempting to leave then just as when she was born and thepediatrician in the hospital called me at home inquiring "how was the baby doing"....they kept her for "observation" but never informedme as to WHY that was, and were were just anxious to believe only the best about this beautiful infant as to being healthy and released

Posts: 1197
Gender:within hours of this observation after birth.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that she TOO had the last degrees of a water sign Rising in the Sidereal Whole house chart.
I collected various informations on the Gandanta and can't recall from where - but it may have been simply a compilation and thentranslated into my own feeble understanding of the phenomenon:

Gandanta points are transitions between water and fire signs in Vedic astrology. These are 29
degrees Pisces to 0 degrees Aries, 29 degrees Scorpio to 0 degrees Sagittarius, and 29 degrees
Cancer to 0 degrees Leo.
I didn't use these words however, (maya, or reference Yogananda)" These points are associated with a lack of boundaries, specifically the boundary from theearthly to spiritual realm. Thus having one or more of these points is extremely favourable fortremendous spiritual growth and progress in this lifetime, cutting through the veil of maya andhaving a profound transformation that impacts your life and the lives of many people around you
both directly and indirectly. It makes a person intuitive, mystical, and more connected withsubtle energy. It is an exclusive door into another dimension, and powerful for spiritualdiscernment.
From Braha, James? " To give an example, Paramahansa Yogananda, author of Autobiography of a Yogi, had Mercury at 29 degrees
Scorpio in Jyestha nakshatra."
These illuminating times of boundary crossing into increased wisdom can be predicted when an outer planet such as Pluto, Neptune,
Uranus, Saturn, or Jupiter make a close transiting aspect to the gandanta point. At this time, the person will have a chance to untie theknots of karma that leads them to a major breakthrough in consciousness level. However the process can be linked with considerable
trauma, struggle, and upheaval, maybe even a dark night of the soul.
(When fire is going into a water sign) or water to fire a transformation is coming….
Its another way of looking perhaps at a critical Ascendant within a Vedic perspective.
Out of perhaps 100 or so charts I studied for the Maraka houses, planets positions, etc and the Ascendant (Gandanta degree charts were
only numbered in the few) In these fewer cases, all had died young except for one woman I came across that I still have no explanation
for it being the exception so apparently, its NOT a hard and fast rule!
The lady is the almost 100 year old actress, Betty White -With her, I'm perplexed, but I don't have anyone to ask about this either,because Vedic Astrolgoers true to their holy scriptures do not take one thing and isolate it as my attempt to study the Maraka only did.
http://i67.tinypic.com/msn0hz.png

This makes a huge amount of sense to me Debra as after two rectification charts being done my chart stillshows D conj ASC at 29. 17 l with all 4 cardinal points at 29 degrees. Lack of boundaries has and still is aproblem for me and needs work to not get thrown off course by input from other people who work so muchfrom the mental level instead of the heart level. The knowledge of all being one sits very easily with me andhas done since I was a child, so unkindness, never sits well and though I can recognise it more wuickly thesedays I still get unsettled when I spot manipylationeven before the person doing it is aware of it hence it causes
problems and people often leave or drop me with no explanation when i have expressed an opinion that doesnt
sit with them or triggers them Several times I have had people tell me I frighten them with something i
express in seeing through them. Thanks you for this its very reassuring as I hadn't known about Grandanta
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #60 - on: 10.06.2018 at 18:23 [UT+1] »Quote from Black Crow on 07.06.2018 at 03:35 [UT+1]:
That is so scary. A person is depressed or anxious and they take pills which they think will help them and instead it increases theirchances of suicide.
F*** the pharma companies who push these drugs onto unsuspecting people. Phew, so glad my brother wasn't prescribed them. Actually,
he was offered something but he refused as he's a bit of a health nut (although he does drink) & rarely even takes an asprin.
Do you think

Ob will help as b is a very grounded, holistic sign. Treasures from the earth and all that. We seem to be aIl.

pill popping people, is that due toPosts: 2454

Thanks for the posting, a good warning.

From Peter Hitchens' column in The Mail On Sunday
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/06/peter-hitchens-like-a-rattlesnake -the-eu-canbite-us-long-after-it-gets-the-chop.html
What's the proof that 'antidepressants' work?
Every time I hear of a seemingly fortunate person killing himself or herself (and it is often, nowadays), I look to see if that person
has been taking ‘antidepressants’. Their friends and relatives will say ‘we had no idea she felt this way’.
In a week when doctors were told to stop using homeopathy because there is no proof it works, people need to understand how little
hard medical evidence exists that ‘antidepressants’ help people who are depressed.
But the correlation between suicide and their use is very strong indeed – so much so that in the USA a warning about it is sometimes
printed on the packaging.

Yes, Uranus in Taurus will surely wake us up to some of the nonsense that's inflicted on us by the food and drug
industry. We've currently also got Mars in Aquarius squaring Uranus, adding some righteous anger andindignation. People happily eat pesticide-ridden fruit and vegetables and then wonder why we get cancer. Timeto stop buying that crap and bring the industry to its knees. Bring it on.
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #61 - on: 10.06.2018 at 20:10 [UT+1] »From personal experience, learning about my daughter's medications prescribed for her to keep her mania
under control I don't think the doctors (and she doctor shopped from what I could tell reading the official
reports), would have known or even cared about the various issues the poor soul was dealing with within. As I
wrote about in my book and here or tried to convey, none of us are psychiatrists, but IF we were, there areprobably (I'm sure), certain times when certain seriously ill patients, need to be medicated, but in a proper way
not hazardly as with my daughter.
I was reading about a man who killed 6 people just last week in Scottsdale and surrounding area, so perhaps
Posts: 7377

this story got out on the news where you all live? Stemming from a rather nasty spirited divorce, (and we only
have her side now in the telling), they were fighting over the one child they had together after 7 years ofworking out just the details of the custody battle. Apparently the husband had the child initially for years
raising him alone for the first 12 yrs of his life , and the woman, is a professional Radiologist, a Medical Doctor.

https://dailyeb.com/2018/06/05/dwight-lamon-jones-ex-wife-connie-jones-5-fast-fa
cts-you-need-to-know/This gets interesting!
Three (3) people were murdered in the spate of only hours, one of them a rather well known psychiatrist who
testified in the Jon Benet Ramsey case, and other high profile cases about the defendants, etc.In this case,
Steven Pitt, MD (the psychiatrist) was gunned down as he left his office after 5PM by this man with the divorce
mentioned. Witnesses said, "they had angry words" outside on the sidewalk before the shots rang out. The
psychiatrist had warned that Dwight Jones was dangerously mentally ill and the child now grown was removed
from his care.
He also killed 2 office workers, paralegals although the one he was after (a lawyer) was not present and escaped
his wrath. He went to a psychologist office, with bad luck as he hard leased theoffices from the son's former
psychotherapist.
and then a Fountain Hills couple who may have known Deight Jones through mutual interest playing Tennis.
Police have not released why he was angry at these two.
Marshall Levine the psychotherapist was written about in Psychology today for his hypnoterapy. He also
provided, "marriage counseling and divorce counseling" [Arizona Republic 6/9/18 ]Since the final divorce occurred 9 years ago, no one knows why he went on this murderous rampage, 9 yrs.
later.
However, the wife owed him part of their joint bank acct. to the tune of $97,000. which she was
reluctant to turn over because she was afraid he'd hire someone to kill the now remarried ex wife.
Dwight Jones according to his ex wife, had always been extremely abusive, controlling and had anger issues.
Perhaps some turn this anger inward, rather than outward, not even realizing they are angry and too sick to get
the proper help dealing with the feelings.
His ex wife, Connie said that although he was diagnosed with Bi-Polar, he had multiple problems all psychiatricones in nature but refused to get help. Some of these issues according to the ex wife, were in her opinion;
manic depresson, paranoia and the anger issues. All went untreated.
Now 6 people and 7 if we include him, are dead.
This couple had to the money easily for serious medical help however, they did not avail themselves nor did heof getting that help in all those years. It simply exploded one day. A private Detective (she married one), foundin Dwight's possession, a map of her office with pencil drawings of people being killed.
Had he lived an ran
away from the police longer, he may have eventually killed them too.

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RainbowKitty
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #62 - on: 10.06.2018 at 20:47 [UT+1] »https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-suicides.html
https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-disorder-facts.html
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Apostrophe

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #63 - on: 10.06.2018 at 21:04 [UT+1] »Quote from RainbowKitty on 10.06.2018 at 20:47 [UT+1]:
https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-suicides.html

From the above article: "Never doubt the risk of bipolar suicide. Many studies indicate a 15% rate of suicide amongst individuals
with bipolar disorder. This rate is about 30 times higher than than that of the general population".

Posts: 2454

But in typical American journalistic half baked fashion, this doesn't tell you whether these suicides were
before the person diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder started taking pharmaceuticals or after.
If a person's mental illness was caused by street drugs and/or alcohol - today's high THC marijuana has now
been shown to trigger psychosis - then stop them from buying these substances
Let us not forget that Saturn is still technically in a separating square to Chiron. We are reaping the reward ofunholistic approaches to everything.
« Last Edit: 11.06.2018 at 17:55 [UT+1] by Apostrophe »Back to top

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RainbowKitty
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #64 - on: 10.06.2018 at 21:10 [UT+1] »https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-disorder-facts.html
I actually have Bipolar Disorder and let me tell you , mood stabilizing drugs are beneficial. Some people react
poorly to certain drugs and you have to kind of play atound with your “cocktail” until you find what works. All
bipolars know this. The drugs are lifesavers when you find thr right drug. Also, over time, you can develop atolerance to a drug so it stops working. Thats why it is important to keep in touch with a therapist and a
psychiatrist who can tweak the meds.
I was obsessed with killing myself for about six months last year while taking a break from meds. I went backon and in a few weeks I was myself again. The illness is characterized by dark moods and self hatred. Thats why
suicide is common.
Now I tried wellbutrin and it gave me anxiety and panic attacks. I told my pdoc and she switched me to Zoloft.
Now everything is sunshine and rainbows. It’s a process.
My friend Sarah swears by wellbutrin. Some drugs work better for one person than another.
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RainbowKitty

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #65 - on: 10.06.2018 at 21:25 [UT+1] »And bipolar is caused by structural problems in the brain. Not drug use.
https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-brain-imaging.html
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #66 - on: 10.06.2018 at 22:14 [UT+1] »Quote from RainbowKitty on 10.06.2018 at 21:25 [UT+1]:
And bipolar is caused by structural problems in the brain. Not drug use.
https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-brain-imaging.html

Many current diagnoses of Bipolar Disorder in young people (18-24) do come with a Dual Daignosis of
Substance Abuse. I know this because I belong to NAMI - the National Alliance on Mental Illness and used to
Posts: 2454

attend support groups for family members of a diagnosed person. 9 out of 10 parents put up their hands when
asked if their loved one had used drugs and/or alcohol before their diagnosis.
College is a dangerous place. At exactly the same time that the brain needs ultimate nutrition for properdevelopment, we send young adults away to a peer pressured free-for-all of cannabis and booze. Add junk food,caffeine and a disrupted sleep cycle studying for exams (if they do) and that's tremendous stress on thegrowing brain.
You are right - some people are just born with pre-disposed brain chemistry imbalance, probably caused as a
fetus in the mother's womb. Proper nutrition, abstinence from drugs and alcohol and prescription drugs and astress-free pregnancy all are contributors to a healthy baby.

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #67 - on: 10.06.2018 at 23:21 [UT+1] »Quote from RainbowKitty on 10.06.2018 at 21:10 [UT+1]:
https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-disorder-facts.html
I actually have Bipolar Disorder and let me tell you , mood stabilizing drugs are beneficial. Some people react poorly to certain drugs andyou have to kind of play atound with your “cocktail” until you find what works. All bipolars know this. The drugs are lifesavers when you
find thr right drug. Also, over time, you can develop a tolerance to a drug so it stops working. Thats why it is important to keep in touchwith a therapist and a psychiatrist who can tweak the meds.
I was obsessed with killing myself for about six months last year while taking a break from meds. I went back on and in a few weeks I
was myself again. The illness is characterized by dark moods and self hatred. Thats why suicide is common.
Now I tried wellbutrin and it gave me anxiety and panic attacks. I told my pdoc and she switched me to Zoloft. Now everything is sunshine

Posts: 7377

and rainbows. It’s a process.
My friend Sarah swears by wellbutrin. Some drugs work better for one person than another.

Her eldest sister told me that Jess would wash obsessively with bleach (the walls, the bathroom, the floors) withpure bleach! When I said, “This would have been like acid on her hands” she said, Jess was becoming obsessedwith germs……”
again another obsession and another mental symptom of obvious distorted thinking beyond this, there was
the being towards the end of her life “afraid” seemingly paranoid at times and keeping mace and a knife in
the car with her at all times now. And various other things on her person. Was this symptomatic ofschizophrenia? I don’t know, we do know however she had distortions in her memory banks. Perhaps anotherdisorder, never diagnosed or touched upon.
Rainbow Kitty: Do you know a link explaining what it is called when one also has what I called "False Memory
Syndrome?"
She honestly believed things that simply never happened. Strange things like her parents feeding her cereal
with watered down milk. Innocuous things and serious things too. (innocuouos, as in not harmful or offensive)

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #68 - on: 11.06.2018 at 00:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 09.06.2018 at 19:35 [UT+1]:
There is a lot of sadness, frustration and "no outlet" issues in this chart. I think he was not a happy man. I mean possibly geneticallydepressed.

Posts: 119
Gender:I think the "no outlet" part is right on. Toward the last few years of his life, he was not happy at all. Hard tosay about the genetics. I'll think about it and perhaps some tidbits will come to mind.
Quote:On the other hand, world events and personal dead ends are also probable core issues.

Yes, I think you're right. But read on.
Quote:The only fire in his chart (which often keeps us going beyond the pain) is Saturn in late Aries.....and it conjuncts the Sun. And the Sun
itself has NO really supportive or lucky aspects.

Ah. I hadn't seen that, so thank you. I suspect if I'd just told his story, you might've made the sameobservation. (Which is very cool.)
Quote:
I think he would have liked to be more educated.....more knowledgeable. There might have been some deep seated inferiority issues
which higher ed might have modified. Those inconjuncts exist no matter what time of day he was born.

He was highly educated, but always seeking. He considered himself a questing person. He was successful at his
Army career (Lt. Col. at death), but struggled with polishing the apple, which is necessary in military life (esp.
back then).
Quote:
And it's possible he had major medical issues that he kept secret or was in denial about.

So here's his story, Reader's Digest version: He was career Army and devoted to the Army. Because of his
education, he entered as an officer shortly before the US officially entered WWII. In peacetime he was anarchivist, and in wartime he was in the infantry. Wounded in WWII in France. Fought in two wars (II and
Korea).
After Korea, he struggled with what we now know as PTSD and even talked about suicide. Back then it was
believed that people who talk about suicide don't do it, and that "battle fatigue" or "shell shock" would ease andfade over time. Of course, we now know that none of that is true, but we're talking about the mid-40s to the
mid-50s. He had severe, extreme, worst-of-the-worst PTSD and though he sought help, there really was none.

There is some mystery regarding some of his peacetime assignments, and the way the Army handled his death
was so unusual as to be unheard of, ever. There was dramatic and lasting fallout after his death, with several
demotions and an investigation into his superiors, physicians and other base personnel.
My surprise birth didn't help, since he had just returned from Korea. There's no question that he adored me
and my sister, but any honest parent will tell you that parenting in good times is hard enough, but parenting in
bad times is infinitely more difficult and stressful.
So, yeah, Lainie, I think you nailed it. Thank you.
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RainbowKitty

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #69 - on: 11.06.2018 at 04:15 [UT+1] »Normal people just don’t get it. Nevermind, carry on!

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #70 - on: 11.06.2018 at 19:42 [UT+1] »Quote from RainbowKitty on 11.06.2018 at 04:15 [UT+1]:
Normal people just don’t get it. Nevermind, carry on!

Who on earth is normal? I self-medicated for years in my 20s with marijuana, and loved the stuff. It cut thoughthe 3D world and dissolved my depression in an ocean of cosmic love. That was when the weed was 10-15

Posts: 2454

times weaker in THC than it is today. But I gave up all substances to have children. Research into autism showsa higher occurrence in those whose mothers took antidepressants during or shortly before pregnancy thanthose whose mothers didn't. Some Millennial mothers still smoke weed while pregnant. We'll see the results ina few years.
How can anyone with a basic K-12 education not understand the basics of how our bodies work? Antidepressants and cannabis are psychological equivalent of chemotherapy for the physical body, or pesticides forthe agriculture business. They cover symptoms just like Chemotherapy covers cancer or pesticides temporarily
kill bugs, without altering the cause of the depression/cancer/disease. Jordan Peterson, the Canadian therapist
and conservative speaker says that antidepressants should only be used for a month at most, to avoid
dependency. If you don't address the CAUSE of depression, cancer, disease, a person will never get better, only
become dependent on ever-increasing or ever-tweaked doses of drugs. And that's really dangerous with mental
illness, because the more dependent you become, the more likely you will really spin off the rails if you miss adose of the external crutch. Your body has lost the ability to manufacture its own balancing chemicals by being
bombarded daily with pharmaceuticals. This is what happened with many of the American school shooters ofrecent years. They had been prescribed SSRIs by today's generation of psychiatrists and had seriously depleted
brain chemistry because of it. They also had access to guns because of the outdated laws of the country they
lived in.
You can address this with nutrition: Omega 3s are really important, (fish oil) Vitamin D, nourishing diet withlots of B vitamins, sleep, talk, prayer, astrology, reading the spiritual masters erc. It's a Virgo-Pisces/6th-12thhouse balance of physical and "spiritual"/non physical self therapies.
If anyone is suicidal, of course you can call the national suicide hotlines, but you will probably be taken to
hospital by the police and forcefully injected with dependency-causing pharmaceuticals.
If you want an alternative and are prepared to do the work of changing your thoughts, this gal might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXi7vcnvl5c&t=21s[edit - sorry for addressing the wrong person and the spelling/grammar]Citrus: Of course your dad had PTSD who in the military wouldn't have it? The military kills people. That's its purpose. Until we end wars and stop
manufacturing guns, people will have PTSD.
Rainbow Kitty: I don't know why you have Bipolar Disorder, but I can tell you that Wellbutrin will not cure it. It
will cover up the underlying cause until that drug too stops working. At some time you are going to have toaddress the underlying wound - was it abuse? grief? low self esteem? were you raped? had an abortion?
stress? hate your job? do you need a divorce? do you need to sue someone? write a novel or start a Tell All
website (with fictitious names)?
Surely as astrologers we see how everything is connected. Leave the narrow minded materialistic impressions oflife to the un-initiated. Refuse their band aid solutions.

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Catsratz

Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #71 - on: 11.06.2018 at 19:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Apostrophe on 11.06.2018 at 19:42 [UT+1]:
PTSD - who in the military wouldn't have it? The military kills people. That's it's purpose. Until we end wars and stop manufacuring guns,
people will have PTSD.

Thank you for this!!!

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #72 - on: 12.06.2018 at 01:16 [UT+1] »RainbowKitty - I just saw your thread in the Post Your Chart section after being away from thee forum for awhile. I think it's good that your are using astrology to gain insight into your personality and expressing
yourself freely. You don't sound like the sort of person who would suddenly stop their medication because
something someone said on a forum, but I do hope what I said in my previous post wasn't too harsh. I'm justtrying to bring some alternatives to the accepted trends in mental health and won't post any more on thisthread unless it's about Katie Spade. Here's some more New Age input from an Abraham Hicks follower - all thebest,
Posts: 2454

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwzm63ZDH0Back to top
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #73 - on: 12.06.2018 at 01:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Apostrophe on 12.06.2018 at 01:16 [UT+1]:
RainbowKitty - I just saw your thread in the Post Your Chart section after being away from thee forum for a while. I think it's good thatyour are using astrology to gain insight into your personality and expressing yourself freely. You don't sound like the sort of person who
would suddenly stop their medication because something someone said on a forum, but I do hope what I said in my previous post wasn't
too harsh. I'm just trying to bring some alternatives to the accepted trends in mental health and won't post any more on this thread unless
it's about Katie Spade. Here's some more New Age input from an Abraham Hicks follower - all the best,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwzm63ZDH0

You can share alternatives without downplaying therapy/anti-depressants/etc... which you are.
Who are you saying antidepressants won't cure mental illnesses?
People with depression and BPD are just taking it day by day...no one's looking for a damn cure right now, justa day to wake up not wishing to DIE.
Is there a cure for lupus? Cancer? Diabetes? No love. NO.
Acting like Abraham Hicks have better solutions. PLEASE. lol.
I will never take you and others like you seriously. Ever.
I can read between the lines. No point of explaining yourself.
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Astro Rose
Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #74 - on: 12.06.2018 at 01:53 [UT+1] »Quote from RainbowKitty on 11.06.2018 at 04:15 [UT+1]:
Normal people just don’t get it. Nevermind, carry on!

They don't want to get it. That's the sad part.
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #75 - on: 12.06.2018 at 03:19 [UT+1] »Citrus,Just want to say that someone can be highly educated and still not "know" a lot of the things they would havewanted to learn - but got sidetracked. The road not taken. That haunts a lot of us.
Posts: 17033

I have PTSD. Diagnosed. And I was never in a war. Not that kind of war anyway.
My life has been one of survival and damage control. Having 2 daughters that are my friends made thegreatest difference for me. Not everyone is that lucky.
Many times in my life I have "not wanted to be here anymore." But I find one thing that is worth living totomorrow...and if that fails I would NEVER want my daughters to have to have a mom who suicided. It would
ruin their emotional lives for the rest of their lives. They would never recover emotionally.
And by living thru the challenges I am a role model for them for aging. If I age with grace and purpose, I hopeto let them know that "tomorrow is another day." And if I didn't know that logically, I am absolutely certain of
it astrologically.
But I'm a philosopher.....not a military officer. The military is a whole other world. Like the entertainment
business....a whole other world.
But don't think that just because a person doesn't shoot themselves or hang themselves or drive off a cliff thatthey are not acting in a suicidal way. I watched my father drink himself to death....and it was a very long timeafterward that I had the epiphany that he didn't have (from his point of view) anything to live for. It was a very
slow suicide. there's a lot of this behavior going on "out there."
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #76 - on: 12.06.2018 at 23:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Astro Rose on 12.06.2018 at 01:39 [UT+1]:
You can share alternatives without downplaying therapy/anti-depressants/etc... which you are. .

Right about anti-depressants (which even have warning labels on the packets), but totally wrong about therapy.
On the contrary, read my post #41 where I say that talk therapy is the MOST IMPORTANT part of healing
Posts: 2454

mental illness. Please don't accuse forum members of things unless you can back it up with a quote.
Quote:

Who are you saying antidepressants won't cure mental illnesses?
People with depression and BPD are just taking it day by day...no one's looking for a damn cure right now, just a day to wake up notwishing to DIE.

That shows that the antidepressants work in the short run. And if they stop someone from killing themselves,that's good. But (as previously mentioned by many others, on and off this forum), the drugs lose efficacy after
a while and have to be ever increased or tweaked and have side effects, one of which is increased suicidal
ideation.
There are several good documentaries on YouTube about Bipolar Disorder and medications, emphasizing thedifference in approach between the UK and America. One is by Louis Theraux, and the other, which I watchedlast night by Stephen Fry. Both are critical of America overmedicating psychological problems - especially inchildren. In Britain, doctors are reluctant to give meds to people before the age 19, whereas in the US, school
children are seen as wonderful consumers for ADHD meds as young as 5, and are diagnosed with Bipolar
Disorder at age 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj8hqXd7N_A(the American children piece is towards the end, around 43m)
There's also the psychologist R.D. Laing, who in the 1960s had a completely different approach to serious
mental illness like schizophrenia. He was against medication (and institutionalization which was still common
then - before Ronald Reagan closed down the asylums), and let patients live as "normal" a life as possible in thecommunity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._D._Laing
As brought out by Stephen Fry in the above video, it is only society's abhorrence of anyone who is different
which has ended up with America's system of shoving people into chemical prisons. Astrologically, Mars square
Neptune in the July 4, 1776 chart also points to this underlying obsession with drugs.
Quote:Is there a cure for lupus? Cancer? Diabetes? No love. NO.

The "cure" is of course not to get these physical diseases in the first place. Nutrition, organic farming, clean air
and water, stress free life and good genes etc. The latest cure for cancer is immunotherapy and is very
promising - perhaps because it is somewhat holistic - getting the body to destroy cancer using its OWN immune
system. Diabetes can be cured with nutrition - again holistic. "No love" is completely curable with a change of
attitude and perception. As it says in the Bible, if your eye is single (your "third" eye of spiritual awareness)
your whole body will be filled with light (and love). If you're stuck in the material level, of course you're going
to be dependent on love seeming to come from other people. This is the reason people study spirituality we're more than blobs of flesh. Talking of which....
Quote:
Acting like Abraham Hicks have better solutions. PLEASE. lol.

Ridicule as you wish, Hicks is just one of a number of methods which have pushed people out of solely
materialistic approaches to healing. I am not a particular Hicks follower, no more than Eckart Tolle or Wayne
Dyer, but they all teach astrology's "sister subject" of using one's imagination to reach goals (the so called Law
of Attraction, The Magician in Tarot, Mercury in astrology) and overcoming the Ego. Astrology could also be
ridiculed by someone who has never studied it, so be careful of being hypocritical.
Kate Spade was a victim of America's outdated, materialistic approaches to mental illness, in my opinion. Now
that religion is dying, people need an alternative holistic understanding of life and our minds.
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azure

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #77 - on: 13.06.2018 at 10:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Apostrophe on 10.06.2018 at 22:14 [UT+1]:
Quote from RainbowKitty on 10.06.2018 at 21:25 [UT+1]:
And bipolar is caused by structural problems in the brain. Not drug use.
https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-brain-imaging.html

Many current diagnoses of Bipolar Disorder in young people (18-24) do come with a Dual Daignosis of Substance Abuse. I know thisbecause I belong to NAMI - the National Alliance on Mental Illness and used to attend support groups for family members of a diagnosed
person. 9 out of 10 parents put up their hands when asked if their loved one had used drugs and/or alcohol before their diagnosis.
College is a dangerous place. At exactly the same time that the brain needs ultimate nutrition for proper development, we send young

Posts: 1503
Gender:adults away to a peer pressured free-for-all of cannabis and booze. Add junk food, caffeine and a disrupted sleep cycle studying for exams(if they do) and that's tremendous stress on the growing brain.
You are right - some people are just born with pre-disposed brain chemistry imbalance, probably caused as a fetus in the mother's womb.
Proper nutrition, abstinence from drugs and alcohol and prescription drugs and a stress-free pregnancy all are contributors to a healthy
baby.

Yes but if there is an association (drug use with mental illness) it doesn't mean the drug use caused the mental
illness.
In many cases people with mental illness self-medicate with drugs and alcohol before they are properly
diagnosed. they do this to cope emotionally. In some cases of course, non pharmaceutical drugs taken in highenough doses over time can trigger mental illness. But it's a mistake to think it is always the cause, or the only
cause.
As for inappropriate pharmaceutical drugs, it's well understood that some people's DNA reacts badly with somemedications. So DNA testing is now becoming part of the treatment process in more advanced clinics. Sadly
this is not standard practice as yet.
This is as I understand it. I do not have a mental illness and haven't been treated with pharmaceutical drugs,
except for a very short time after some trauma. I decided to stop taking the antidepressant as it made me feelflat. Apparently it can induce some people to suicide if they 'cold turkey' from the drug. I cold turkeyed without
knowing this risk, I just hated the effect and don't like drugs at the best of times. My natal mars is square
neptune, it just muddies the water for me...lol.
By and large I agree that it's best to avoid drugs in general, pharmaceutical or non-pharmaceutical. But you
also must be practical. Someone in crisis needs help. You cannot offer them a herbal tea when they're suicidal.
Plus on herbs in general, you must ensure that any herbs are in standardised and safe form. A lot of the timethey don't have enough active ingredients to do anything useful at all. Sometimes it's the placebo effect, which
is valid to a point, I guess. But potentially dangerous when human lives are involved.
BTW I sometimes take an amino acid as a dietary supplement which is key to forming seratonin essential forsleep. It's 5- HTP. I had gut problems and don't seem to produce this amino acid in sufficient quantities now
I'm older.
I don't take it every night, more like a couple of times per week, often not at all for several weeks.
Also I try to not use my computer at night, or if I do use it, put on sunglasses to mask the blue light whichinterferes with your body clock.
From a websearch, here are the top five, natural Anti Anxiety and Depression Supplements:
FISH OIL. Fish oil is rich in omega-3 fatty acids, a major building block in optimal brain chemistry, says Paul
Anderson, ND, a professor of naturopathic medicine at Bastyr University in Kenmore, Wash. ...
B-COMPLEX VITAMINS. ...
5-HTP. ...
THEANINE. ...
VITAMIN D.
I do think that practical solutions are arising from the Uranus trine Saturn in Taurus and Capricorn respectively.
I'm not sure what theanine is. But we all should be sure we're getting enough fish in our diet, exercise, and get
those other essential vitamins.
My cat cannot sleep if she doesn't get enough taurine, derived from chicken. She goes all wild eyed andstressed. it shows how critical good diet is.
In the west we eat a load of carbs and sugars and wonder why we're freaking out.
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IP LoggedCitrus

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #78 - on: 13.06.2018 at 13:56 [UT+1] »Many thanks, Debra, for your analysis and thoughts. I've made notes and need to take more time to better
understand what you've posted. (It's a lot to digest.)
In other news (and not directed to Debra)...
Posts: 119
Gender:I think it's important to understand that everyone reacts differently to stress. This is why astrology can be auseful tool. Not everyone in war will experience PTSD, just as not every abused child will end up with PTSD.
Etc., etc. We're all different and we all react to situations and experiences in our unique ways. The
physiological explanation of why TSDs develop in some and not others is elusive, so when we can use
metaphysical tools to increase our understanding and perhaps offer help, it can only be a good thing. We
should be wary of making blanket statements and arrogant pronouncements about such things.

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #79 - on: 13.06.2018 at 15:55 [UT+1] »You are completely missing the point that Apostrophe is making. I never even realized how dangerous manyanti-depressants can be until she posted. But I do remember many years ago being prescribed antidepressants as I was very depressed.
Posts: 1568

I actually got worse and started planning how I was gong to kill myself. I told this to the doctor and he told
me to stop taking them immed and to call him personally if I had those same thoughts. I had forgotten about
that. At the time ImC!
I took a more holistic approach and while I still get depressed as that's my nature, I don't run to get a pill.
Actually, there is NO evidence that anti-depressants cure anything but if they work for you and others to copewith your symptoms then that's a good thing. For others, they are very destructive. Kate Spade was on
medications for both anxiety and depression. If you look at her chart posted by Debra in 1st posting, you cansee how G and J were playing major roles in her thinking and feelings.
The drugs obviously didn't work as she's now deceased.
And who knows if they helped or hindered her healing process. Maybe it would have been better for her toattend a retreat for mindful thinking or any place that helped get her 'out of her head'.
dramatic feelings and she must have felt so powerless.

J can create intense,

I'm not talking about people suffering from hallucinations, psychosis, etc. They must be given sedatives
immed to calm them down, for their sake and the sake of others around them. Just like treating a cut asap to
avoid infection and stop the bleeding, emergency situations call for emergency treatments. As somebody
mentioned, a herbal tea is not going to help in these situations.
Diabetes CAN be cured by alternative treatments, better diet and certain herbs. These plants are on our
beautiful earth for a reason.
Many times, it's our polluted environment, obesity, love of junk food, stress, etc that cause all manner of illness
and disease. PTSD can cause thyroid and cortisol imbalances that can bring on serious illnesses.
In fact, chemo treatments are rather a dodgy bet. Modern medicine doesn't have all the answers, especiallywhen it comes tomental and emotional issues. It's outrageous that they give children meds to 'calm them down'. OMG, myentire childhood was spent
running around, building camps, climbing trees, etc. We created plays, acted and starred in our own movies!
Nowadays, they would have drugged my siblings and I because we would be labelled ADD!

Quote from Astro Rose on 12.06.2018 at 01:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Apostrophe on 12.06.2018 at 01:16 [UT+1]:
RainbowKitty - I just saw your thread in the Post Your Chart section after being away from thee forum for a while. I think
it's good that your are using astrology to gain insight into your personality and expressing yourself freely. You don't soundlike the sort of person who would suddenly stop their medication because something someone said on a forum, but I do
hope what I said in my previous post wasn't too harsh. I'm just trying to bring some alternatives to the accepted trends inmental health and won't post any more on this thread unless it's about Katie Spade. Here's some more New Age input
from an Abraham Hicks follower - all the best,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwzm63ZDH0

You can share alternatives without downplaying therapy/anti-depressants/etc... which you are.
Who are you saying antidepressants won't cure mental illnesses?
People with depression and BPD are just taking it day by day...no one's looking for a damn cure right now, just a day to wake up notwishing to DIE.
Is there a cure for lupus? Cancer? Diabetes? No love. NO.
Acting like Abraham Hicks have better solutions. PLEASE. lol.
I will never take you and others like you seriously. Ever.
I can read between the lines. No point of explaining yourself.

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CitrusMember

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #80 - on: 14.06.2018 at 02:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 12.06.2018 at 03:19 [UT+1]:
Citrus...

Posts: 119

Snipped the post so you'd know I was responding to you. I agree with everything you said.

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IP LoggedAstro Rose

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Ex Member« Reply #81 - on: 14.06.2018 at 03:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Black Crow on 13.06.2018 at 15:55 [UT+1]:
You are completely missing the point that Apostrophe is making. I never even realized how dangerous many anti-depressants can be until
she posted. But I do remember many years ago being prescribed anti-depressants as I was very depressed.
I actually got worse and started planning how I was gong to kill myself. I told this to the doctor and he told me to stop taking them
immed and to call him personally if I had those same thoughts. I had forgotten about that. At the time

ImC!

I took a more holistic approach and while I still get depressed as that's my nature, I don't run to get a pill.
Actually, there is NO evidence that anti-depressants cure anything but if they work for you and others to cope with your symptoms thenthat's a good thing. For others, they are very destructive. Kate Spade was on medications for both anxiety and depression. If you look at
her chart posted by Debra in 1st posting, you can see how

G and J were playing major roles in her thinking and feelings.

The drugs obviously didn't work as she's now deceased.
And who knows if they helped or hindered her healing process. Maybe it would have been better for her to attend a retreat for mindful
thinking or any place that helped get her 'out of her head'.

J can create intense, dramatic feelings and she must have felt so powerless.

I'm not talking about people suffering from hallucinations, psychosis, etc. They must be given sedatives immed to calm them down, fortheir sake and the sake of others around them. Just like treating a cut asap to avoid infection and stop the bleeding, emergency situations
call for emergency treatments. As somebody mentioned, a herbal tea is not going to help in these situations.
Diabetes CAN be cured by alternative treatments, better diet and certain herbs. These plants are on our beautiful earth for a reason.
Many times, it's our polluted environment, obesity, love of junk food, stress, etc that cause all manner of illness and disease. PTSD cancause thyroid and cortisol imbalances that can bring on serious illnesses.
In fact, chemo treatments are rather a dodgy bet. Modern medicine doesn't have all the answers, especially when it comes tomental and emotional issues. It's outrageous that they give children meds to 'calm them down'. OMG, my entire childhood was spent
running around, building camps, climbing trees, etc. We created plays, acted and starred in our own movies! Nowadays, they would have
drugged my siblings and I because we would be labelled ADD!

Quote from Astro Rose on 12.06.2018 at 01:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Apostrophe on 12.06.2018 at 01:16 [UT+1]:
RainbowKitty - I just saw your thread in the Post Your Chart section after being away from thee forum for awhile. I think it's good that your are using astrology to gain insight into your personality and expressing
yourself freely. You don't sound like the sort of person who would suddenly stop their medication because
something someone said on a forum, but I do hope what I said in my previous post wasn't too harsh. I'mjust trying to bring some alternatives to the accepted trends in mental health and won't post any more on
this thread unless it's about Katie Spade. Here's some more New Age input from an Abraham Hicks follower- all the best,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwzm63ZDH0

You can share alternatives without downplaying therapy/anti-depressants/etc... which you are.
Who are you saying antidepressants won't cure mental illnesses?
People with depression and BPD are just taking it day by day...no one's looking for a damn cure right now, just a day towake up not wishing to DIE.
Is there a cure for lupus? Cancer? Diabetes? No love. NO.
Acting like Abraham Hicks have better solutions. PLEASE. lol.
I will never take you and others like you seriously. Ever.
I can read between the lines. No point of explaining yourself.

BlackCrow, I also will never take your posts seriously when it comes to psychology/antidepressants/therapy/etc.
I don't care for your anti-science and "big pharma" speeches and by your astrological logic, perhaps my strong
Pluto and Saturn aspects perhaps helped me transformed for the best when I took a practical approach to be a
big girl and actually take care of my mental health. Unlike so many others.
Now off to that political thread you go right?
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #82 - on: 14.06.2018 at 04:02 [UT+1] »It's ok AR, you don't want to understand that health should be approached from a holistic point of view.
Medical marijuana should be legalized everywhere in the world for those who can benefit. Big pharma is always
fighting against alternative treatments if they cannot profit from them. I do use prescription medicines whenPosts: 1568

there is no other alternative. You have completely misunderstood what I have said. I stated quite
categorically that if anti-depressants work for you and others, kudos. Stick with what's working. But for
many, many others, these types of medications have serious side effects, including suicidal thoughts and oneneeds to be mindful of this. This is based on clinical studies because I deal in reality G and facts.
Apostrophe posted about the USA EIo and this is a clear marker for addictions of all kinds.
And, yes, I'm sure I'll be posting on the political threads as there is so much going on and I'm a politicaljunkie. Good to know that you are following my postings!

Quote from Astro Rose on 14.06.2018 at 03:26 [UT+1]:

BlackCrow, I also will never take your posts seriously when it comes to psychology/antidepressants/therapy/etc. I don't care for your antiscience and "big pharma" speeches and by your astrological logic, perhaps my strong Pluto and Saturn aspects perhaps helped metransformed for the best when I took a practical approach to be a big girl and actually take care of my mental health. Unlike so manyothers.
Now off to that political thread you go right?

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Autumn Moonfire

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #83 - on: 14.06.2018 at 17:14 [UT+1] »Not all anti depressants work for folks, sometimes it takes a try or two to find the right med and dose forsomeone. Sometimes one stops working and you need to try another, and yes sometimes they make mattersworse. When someone has been suicidal they need to be watched extra close as the anti-D starts to work
because they may use the new found direction and will to follow through with a suicide plan.
Posts: 27

I also dislike the wholesale rejection of meds for folks for no other reason than the misbehavior of big pharma.

Yes, big pharma needs more regulation and oversight, they are being malignantly greedy and have been forsome time. however, without them I wouldn't have anything close to the life I have. I was born hypothyroid,
without artificial thyroid hormone I would have been profoundly intellectally handicapped.
Without meds type 1 diabetics would DIE.
and I could go on and on with this, you get the idea though.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater ok? Meds have a place in wholistic health care.
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azure

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #84 - on: 14.06.2018 at 18:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Black Crow on 14.06.2018 at 04:02 [UT+1]:
It's ok AR, you don't want to understand that health should be approached from a holistic point of view. Medical marijuana should be
legalized everywhere in the world for those who can benefit. Big pharma is always fighting against alternative treatments if they cannot
profit from them. I do use prescription medicines when there is no other alternative. You have completely misunderstood what I have said.
I stated quite categorically that if anti-depressants work for you and others, kudos. Stick with what's working. But for many, manyothers, these types of medications have serious side effects, including suicidal thoughts and one needs to be mindful of this. This is basedon clinical studies because I deal in reality
Apostrophe posted about the USA

G and facts.

EIo and this is a clear marker for addictions of all kinds.

And, yes, I'm sure I'll be posting on the political threads as there is so much going on and I'm a political junkie. Good to know that you
are following my postings!

Posts: 1503

Quote from Astro Rose on 14.06.2018 at 03:26 [UT+1]:

Gender:BlackCrow, I also will never take your posts seriously when it comes to psychology/antidepressants/therapy/etc. I don't
care for your anti-science and "big pharma" speeches and by your astrological logic, perhaps my strong Pluto and Saturnaspects perhaps helped me transformed for the best when I took a practical approach to be a big girl and actually takecare of my mental health. Unlike so many others.
Now off to that political thread you go right?

Overall you must look at more than just an aspect on a chart.
For example I have Mars square neptune natally and I can assure you that I certainly do not have an addictive
personality.
Indeed I find it easy to give up things, and that includes material things. I've had alcohol in the fridge formonths...people wonder why but I explain I just don't have the desire for it. It's the same with other drugs. I
was on antidepressants for a very short time and I took myself off them.
I have natal Uranus opposition Mars, so Neptune forms a t-square. It may be that Mars is the strongest planet
as it's exalted in Capricorn and is a co-ruling planet in my chart.
Chart interpretation is very tricky indeed. My sister is an alcoholic and she has Pluto opposition Sun, andUranus opposition Moon.She has issues of anger and control. I'd say most people with drug problems haveunderlying psychological problems and this is what underpins their addictions.
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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #85 - on: 14.06.2018 at 21:57 [UT+1] »Of course you must look at the overall chart but you CAN look at a specific aspect such as AmG which is VERY
different from AmF. That' just an example of how important aspects are. EoI is energy that is not
managed well and takes willpower and insight to corral the negative aspects of I. It can cause self-delusion
Posts: 1568

where the person only believes what they like and not reality. Because E rules anger and energy, when it is in
hard aspect to I there can be anger turn inwards which manifests in addictions of all kinds. This is what
astrology is. Many many charts I have studied of addicts have this hard aspect so it cannot be dismissed. ANY
hard aspect is energy that must be overcome, transmuted or the native will suffer.
USA is known for its addictions to illegal and legal drugs. It's a real crisis right now.
It can also manifest in deceptive energy and I know a big thief with this aspect. It doesn't mean that everyone
with this aspect will be an addict or a criminal but the potential for the mis-use of both EI energies ispresent.
I think it goes without saying that people turn to drugs/alcohol/sex to cure their emotional pain. Bruce Lee has
one of the mostdifficult charts I've ever seen. He experienced horrible racism, severe body injuries, opposition to his new wayof approaching martial arts. Yet, he married, had children, became a very successful actor and is still loved bymillions around the world.
Do you have any comments about the Kate Spade chart?
She also happens to have a EIo .
I would advise anyone with this aspect to avoid illegal and legal drugs as much as possible, along with alcohol,
to avoid any unfortunate situations. They can often put others needs before their own and become a kind of I
martyr.
It also manifested in her extremely artistic nature which is characteristic of I. Her handbags were a huge
success and she sold hercompany for a huge profit.

Quote from azure on 14.06.2018 at 18:30 [UT+1]:
Overall you must look at more than just an aspect on a chart.
For example I have Mars square neptune natally and I can assure you that I certainly do not have an addictive personality.
Indeed I find it easy to give up things, and that includes material things. I've had alcohol in the fridge for months...people wonder why but
I explain I just don't have the desire for it. It's the same with other drugs. I was on antidepressants for a very short time and I tookmyself off them.
I have natal Uranus opposition Mars, so Neptune forms a t-square. It may be that Mars is the strongest planet as it's exalted in Capricorn
and is a co-ruling planet in my chart.
Chart interpretation is very tricky indeed. My sister is an alcoholic and she has Pluto opposition Sun, and Uranus opposition Moon.She has
issues of anger and control. I'd say most people with drug problems have underlying psychological problems and this is what underpins
their addictions.

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Penguin Trauma
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #86 - on: 15.06.2018 at 09:40 [UT+1] »At the risk of sounding ignorant, but given her age of 55, could it be possible that the menopause might havebeen a contributing factor as well, to the already underlying issues of depression she had?
Not that age yet, but have witnessed the effect in others, peri and full on menopause seems to havehorrendous effects, including existing mental health issues that drastically worsen due to the sudden drop in
hormones. Even women who DON'T have existing MH issues seem to 'develop' them during meno. It's a very
tiny minority that simply sail through it, many don'tPosts: 8991
Gender:Unfortunately in society we still have a long way to go in terms of developing better treatments to manage it.
Some women go to the doctors only to be told they are making a fuss over nothing, or are dismissed ashysterical and neurotic .... including from female GPs. That stigma is still alive and kicking. It really shouldn't be
under estimatedHer chart shows a 6H E square her 8H D, plus 6H J square her 8H B ....both BD (feminine issues) badly
aspected by 6H planets in f (also linked to the feminine)

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Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #87 - on: 15.06.2018 at 14:58 [UT+1] »That's an excellent point Penguin and not ignorant at all. Thanks for bringing this up. As you say, menopause
or peri-menopause can exacerbate or even bring on depression and mood changes. There is a lot than can bedone now (bio-identical hormones for example) but a lot of doctors still don't take it very seriously. G is also
known as Chronos, the Keeper of Time and being mA could be an indicator of this major life passage.
Posts: 1568

Just a reminder.
We don't have a correct time of birth so we cannot assign planets to any houses. Don't like the malefic EGm
going on along with the OoK. Aspects to Nodes always mark a time of important or fated events.

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astro_24ase_kate_spade_201865.50112.30855.png

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Matrika Matters
Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #88 - on: 15.06.2018 at 15:38 [UT+1] »Re: Women being dismissed by healthcare professionals...yes...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/14/women-with-heart-diseases- aredismissed-and-its-killing-them?CMP=share_btn_fb
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #89 - on: 16.06.2018 at 01:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Penguin Trauma on 15.06.2018 at 09:40 [UT+1]:
At the risk of sounding ignorant, but given her age of 55, could it be possible that the menopause might have been a contributing factor as
well, to the already underlying issues of depression she had?
Not that age yet, but have witnessed the effect in others, peri and full on menopause seems to have horrendous effects, including existing
mental health issues that drastically worsen due to the sudden drop in hormones. Even women who DON'T have existing MH issues seemto 'develop' them during meno. It's a very tiny minority that simply sail through it, many don'tPosts: 2454

300 years ago, and as late as only 100 years ago, women who reached menopause were often relegated to thecategory of old crone at best, witch at worst. There is nothing wrong with a woman growing older - but there issomething very wrong with a male-dominated society which just can't get over the fact that women get
wrinkles, lose interest in sex and start getting involved with their grandchildren or volunteering for a non-profit.
Kate Spade herself, in her suicide note, blamed her prick of a husband. All some men want is a constantly
youthful looking wife to boost their egos.
I used to see men like this at the NAMI support group. They blamed their wives for being mentally ill andruining their marriages. These are the same men who in a time-warped universe, committed their wives tomental asylums 100 years ago because the women were going through what we now know as Postpartum
depression after having a baby, or hormone loss during menopause if they kept their freedom that long.
Quote:
Unfortunately in society we still have a long way to go in terms of developing better treatments to manage it. Some women go to thedoctors only to be told they are making a fuss over nothing, or are dismissed as hysterical and neurotic .... including from female GPs.
That stigma is still alive and kicking. It really shouldn't be under estimatedBetter treatments? Hormone replacements might stave off the ageing process for a few years but they increase
the risk of breast or ovarian cancer! Why should women be forced into thinking that they should have to do
anything but age gracefully? We could also run out and get cosmetic surgery. This too only lasts a few years
before the sagging and wrinkling comes back. Or a tattoo.... or liposuction....or lip enhancement. The doctors
love it, smiling all the way to the bank.
55 is also just after our Chiron return at 53. We've had five decades to sort out what is truly in tune withnature and what is simply a man-made artifice, which brings short term pleasure but not lasting peace. We've
been through the mid-life transits of our 40s and learned to be a unique individual with the Uranus opposition,
about sacrifice and compassion with the Neptune square, and will power and control with the Pluto square. Or
not. No one I know is that perfect, and that is why we invariably get wounded by Chiron.
Quote from Matrika on 15.06.2018 at 15:38 [UT+1]:
Re: Women being dismissed by healthcare professionals...yes...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/14/women-with-heart-diseases- are-dismissed-and-its-killingthem?CMP=share_btn_fb

Having more women doctors might help spot symptoms in women which male doctors can't, but if those
women doctors are just going to do exactly the same as what male Western doctors have been doing for thelast 50 years - throwing drugs and surgery at everything, or the "slash and burn" approach (an analogy frompesticide-ridden farming) then we are just going to see the same old covering up of symptoms without treating
the cause. And we are going to see the same old iatrogenic diseases -caused by doctors themselves - including
psychiatric diseases:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis
By coincidence there was a post on Facebook yesterday from Sam Harris called The Machine Of Medicine, theatheist, scientist and skeptic. He was interviewing a female doctor about this now recognizable problem inmedicine. The more specialized a doctor becomes, and the longer they study their particular field, the further
away from any semblance of healing they seem to become. Chiron again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMm17Jd2qw

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_Anna_

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide

Member« Reply #90 - on: 16.06.2018 at 09:02 [UT+1] »Apostrophe, I agree so much with your post. While I also agree that the medical system needs to be moreoriented towards the feminine, I basically think that that whole system is too far removed from the truth of ourorganic, whole bodies/integrated systems, so that learning more about female bodies wouldn’t really matter
when looking from that perspective.

Posts: 993

Agreed that there is a lot of wisdom and wholeness to gain in accepting the natural process of change inherent
in our ageing bodies. I believe many of the tough symptoms that women experience during menopause andperi-m comes from a whole life of having accepted the patriarchal paradigm and relentlessly NOT listened to ourbodies and psyches as women.
Astrologically there is some symbology of this in the different phases of the moon where the waxing moon isseen as the young woman in bloom, the fm as the midlife woman perhaps a mother but in her full so to speak,
and then the waning moon as the ”crone”/ wise woman.
Demetra George has an interesting book ”the dark moon” https://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-DarkMoon-Healing-Goddess-ebook/dp/B002IPZDU2/r ef=mp_s_a_1_1?
ie=UTF8&qid=1529136416&sr=81&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=demetra+george+dark+moon&dpPl=1&dpID=5154BR7KZ

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anarchrystologer

Ex Member

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #91 - on: 16.06.2018 at 09:42 [UT+1] »Quote from Black Crow on 15.06.2018 at 14:58 [UT+1]:

We don't have a correct time of birth so we cannot assign planets to any houses. Don't like the malefic

EGm going on along with the

OoK. Aspects to Nodes always mark a time of important or fated events.

You could place Ceres on the ASC and apply houses to the chart. It's a method I use when I don't have a timeofbirth.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-15/angela-saini-has-science-got-women-wrong/9 863576
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IP Logged2MuchEarthMember

Re: Designer Kate Spade, dead by suicide« Reply #92 - on: 21.06.2018 at 22:38 [UT+1] »Quote from clairea on 06.06.2018 at 13:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from azure on 06.06.2018 at 11:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from anarchrystologer on 05.06.2018 at 22:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from Debra M. on 05.06.2018 at 21:39 [UT+1]:

Posts: 531
Gender:I still think as with Robin Williams there is some rhyme and reason behind it. We just don't
know why yet. With Williams, it was severe depression he suffered foryears. Perhaps Bi-Polar disorder to the extreme mood swings.

No. It was not.
Robin Williams' widow: 'It was not depression' that killed him
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/03/robin-williams-disintegrating-befor esuicide-widow-says

Yes I think there's an argument that what Robin Williams did was a form of self-inflicted euthanasia because of theincurable nature of his illnesses.
Because in the West we think of life as sacrosant we cannot contemplate a situation where the person sees their body asfunctionally no longer able to carry them, and they want to end that scenario while still capable of executing that.
This is probably a courageous act rather than an irrational one.
Apologies to everyone if this is offtopic, but I do think issues of death/eighth house issues aren't talked about enough in
the West. It's as if we carry on as if we are going to live forever and as if prolonging life in any form, is automatically thebest thing to do.
There's a time when a dog or cat quietly takes itself off somewhere to die. My 17 year old cat has started sleeping outside
for long periods, even though it's winter here in Australia and she always used to be inside snuggling up in my lap. I know
she will die at some point.
We're out of touch with that animal intelligence.
I truly love her, but she knows her time is slowing down. We both know it.

I agree with you about we in the West thinking that life is sacrosanct. I hope to 'walk out into the snow', metaphorically, when my timecomes.

Having worked in a LTC/Rehab facility, I now plan to have a back-up plan when I leave this poor-excuse-for-aplanet, as, over the years, I've run into 3 patients who shot themselves but either didn't do it right or someone
called for an ambulance quick enough. Not a pretty sight to see a shotgun victim who's lying in bed brain
damaged, hooked up to tubes for the rest of their lives.
When I leave I want to make damn sure I'm gone, gone, gone! Dangle from a balcony of a high rise hotel orthe edge of a cliff, shoot, then fall! That should do it!!

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