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Projection in the chart (Read 596 times)

Ethereal
Mountain

Projection in the chart« on: 25.09.2011 at 06:08 [UT+1] »Member

I'm pretty sure this is not going to be cut-and-dried, but this interests me so I'm starting a thread on a whim.
Where do we find projection in the chart? Do we look at the 7th house, the 12th, or just at complexes ofaspects/placements? Are there types of signatures and configurations that are more likely to create projection?
What are alternative manifestations for these chart configurations?

Posts: 1039
Gender:Thanks in advance for your thoughts...

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Rainbird

Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #1 - on: 25.09.2011 at 06:24 [UT+1] »Ethereal Mountain,
1H = projection. Fire houses = projection. In turn water houses = reception.
Rainbird

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Running For

Re: Projection in the chart

Snow« Reply #2 - on: 25.09.2011 at 07:16 [UT+1] »Member

Oppositions are a strong source of projection ... rather than trying to manage the balance between them - it'seasier to own one end and project the other onto someone.

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Arihant

Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #3 - on: 25.09.2011 at 09:05 [UT+1] »I've got J in H7 and, for long I believed my wife mould me always as per her wishes,often through sweet talks,tantrams= manjpulation...little did I realize ,after 12 yrs of marriage, its me who manipulates everyone, bethey be servants, daughters anyone,lest my own comforts/status quo be disturbed.
Generally speaking, latent,but potent negative qualities of our planetary aspects got triggered, while we interact
on the subjects which are dear to us or about which we are obsessed about. Clearly Nature has way to resolvethese negative qualities ,which we so easily find(project) in others ,little realizing , soon we ourselves would be
exhibiting the same...
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of course ,Native with weak H1(weakself image) with square ,oppositions , Angular planets & H7/H8 planets
tend to get life(projection) with others & the other one seems to get the negative quality of the projected
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MaryonMember

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #4 - on: 25.09.2011 at 09:17 [UT+1] »Hai Ethereal Mountain I think that everything is projection. If we look here for projection wenn we got trapped
into the negative I would say any opposition in the card: even the axses and nodes.
nm Maryon

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YehuditMember

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #5 - on: 25.09.2011 at 10:11 [UT+1] »Quote from FeelingForSnow on 25.09.2011 at 07:16 [UT+1]:
Oppositions are a strong source of projection ... rather than trying to manage the balance between them - it's easier to own one end andproject the other onto someone.

I second thisPosts: 173
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visions
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #6 - on: 25.09.2011 at 10:14 [UT+1] »yes opposition are projection, inner conflict enlighten by others
and the 7th house !!!!
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Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #7 - on: 25.09.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1] »B could be the case in a male chart, A E in females.
M could represent something also.
Repressed energy.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #8 - on: 25.09.2011 at 13:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 25.09.2011 at 06:08 [UT+1]:
I'm pretty sure this is not going to be cut-and-dried, but this interests me so I'm starting a thread on a whim. Where do we find projectionin the chart? Do we look at the 7th house, the 12th, or just at complexes of aspects/placements? Are there types of signatures andconfigurations that are more likely to create projection? What are alternative manifestations for these chart configurations?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts...

People with Neptune prominent in their chart in some way are more likely to be projected upon. So are people
with oppositions to their ascendant.
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Lynne

Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #9 - on: 25.09.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1] »I agree that oppositions are where projection will play out. But I flinch at the connotations of the word
'projection', it seems like a bad thing, or something that needs to be remedied or fixed.
I think projection is part of being human and serves a purpose, maybe as a way of balancing energies inrelationships...the natural process of falling in love is entirely based on projection...and without that thecontinuation of the species might be in crisis.
Axis' and opposites are integral to astrology, and therefore human expression.
But forgive me if I've misunderstood the meaning of projection.
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IP Loggedramez nas
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #10 - on: 25.09.2011 at 14:59 [UT+1] »I dunno...I'm pretty sure I'm projecting my AoB..at least one half of it. Then I also project my BpO. Again
one or the other half.
I think I can project virtually everything. When people push our buttons that's projection also. That's just...
life.
Important thing is to understand it so that it's not the projection that leads us, but vice versa.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #11 - on: 26.09.2011 at 10:11 [UT+1] »I think projection is particularly noticeable with the 7th, 12th and the oppositions in the chart.
I do not think projection is a 'bad thing', absolutely EVERYBODY projects stuff ALL the time.
However in particular the 7th house stuff may be projected and this may, if not made more conscious, bedetrimental to the individual.
I always suggest when issues like this come up that the Sun or Moon in the 7th is a difficult placement to be in,because we often project those planets onto the other. That can be a difficult thing to live with.
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coromell
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #12 - on: 26.09.2011 at 10:23 [UT+1] »Personally I don't think oppositions show projections at all - they show a tension, a difficulty in assimilation,
that's not the same as projection.
Neptune shows where we idealise and aspects to Neptune can show how that idealisation takes shape - if it
happens unconsciously then that could well be projection. I'm not sure that there is any real way of tellingwhether someone will express those Neptune influences consciously or unconsciously, not simply by looking at achart.
YODs are the projection aspect par excellence with the apex being that which is projected and the sextile theway that projection is played out. The inconjuncts are especially important as they are often aspect energies weare not consciously aware of - and it's the lack of consious awareness that is the real issue with projection. Of
course it is possible to become aware of these aspects and work on them - in which case the YOD will express
something more positive and creative than projection.
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Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #13 - on: 26.09.2011 at 10:32 [UT+1] »Quote from coromell on 26.09.2011 at 10:23 [UT+1]:
Personally I don't think oppositions show projections at all - they show a tension, a difficulty in assimilation, that's not the same as
projection.
Neptune shows where we idealise and aspects to Neptune can show how that idealisation takes shape - if it happens unconsciously thenthat could well be projection. I'm not sure that there is any real way of telling whether someone will express those Neptune influences
consciously or unconsciously, not simply by looking at a chart.
YODs are the projection aspect par excellence with the apex being that which is projected and the sextile the way that projection is playedout. The inconjuncts are especially important as they are often aspect energies we are not consciously aware of - and it's the lack ofconsious awareness that is the real issue with projection. Of course it is possible to become aware of these aspects and work on them - inwhich case the YOD will express something more positive and creative than projection.
Coromell

I agree that Yods (actually inconjunctions generally) can be projected.
Oppositions are projected quite often though. Take the example of someone with Moon opposition Mars, who
experiences an aggressive and abusive mother, but of course it's THEIR aspect, perhaps their own internal
discomfort with their moon and mars is projected outwards.
It's not uncommon to take up one side of the opposition and experience the other side as 'happening to you' atany given moment. True of all the planets, but particularly so of Saturn and the outers.
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coromell
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #14 - on: 26.09.2011 at 10:46 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 10:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from coromell on 26.09.2011 at 10:23 [UT+1]:
Personally I don't think oppositions show projections at all - they show a tension, a difficulty in assimilation, that's not thesame as projection.
Neptune shows where we idealise and aspects to Neptune can show how that idealisation takes shape - if it happens
unconsciously then that could well be projection. I'm not sure that there is any real way of telling whether someone will
express those Neptune influences consciously or unconsciously, not simply by looking at a chart.
YODs are the projection aspect par excellence with the apex being that which is projected and the sextile the way thatprojection is played out. The inconjuncts are especially important as they are often aspect energies we are not consciously
aware of - and it's the lack of consious awareness that is the real issue with projection. Of course it is possible to becomeaware of these aspects and work on them - in which case the YOD will express something more positive and creative thanprojection.
Coromell

I agree that Yods (actually inconjunctions generally) can be projected.
Oppositions are projected quite often though. Take the example of someone with Moon opposition Mars, who experiences an aggressive andabusive mother, but of course it's THEIR aspect, perhaps their own internal discomfort with their moon and mars is projected outwards.
It's not uncommon to take up one side of the opposition and experience the other side as 'happening to you' at any given moment. Trueof all the planets, but particularly so of Saturn and the outers.

Maybe we have a different understanding of the term 'projection'. I do not believe that we live entirely within
our own heads and that difficult experiences are entirely our own making - someone who experiences actual
abuse does indeed experience it, it isn't projection - and sometimes things do happen to us.
If someone experiences an aggressive and abusive mother I would say that was an actual experience, notprojection - it may well be a result of a particular relationship, but that relationship itself is a real thing. The
issue would then become whether that person then projects those qualities onto all women/mothers/girlfriends
whatever. I am not convinced that oppositions show that happening as opposed to showing people having
actual, difficult experiences. I think YODs and (I agree with you here) inconjuncts in general can show thatprocess in action far more than an opposition because at least with an opposition we tend to be aware of theenergies involved, even if we find them difficult to deal with.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #15 - on: 26.09.2011 at 11:01 [UT+1] »Quote from coromell on 26.09.2011 at 10:46 [UT+1]:
Maybe we have a different understanding of the term 'projection'. I do not believe that we live entirely within our own heads and thatdifficult experiences are entirely our own making - someone who experiences actual abuse does indeed experience it, it isn't projection and sometimes things do happen to us.

Just because it's 'real' doesn't mean it's not projected though.
Consider someone who has Moon opposition Uranus, and let's say that this means that they experience a
Mother who was not emotionally close, who left them alone for long periods of time as a baby, who, when thebaby cried, just put on some TV cos she was off doing something else. This is all real. It's not fiction. The
person may grow up feeling emotionally detached from the world or feeling emotionally isolated or unwanted.
However it's not to say it's not also projection. Take the example of someone who has the Moon trine Uranus
and had the exact same upbringing. Well they were HAPPY with being left alone for a while and not having aclinging mother who was always hugging them and kissing them and stifling them.
If you believe in astrology then, by proxy, you do not believe in the tabula rasa idea of individuality. You beilevethat you come into the world with an a priori expectation of life, and that expectation is projected onto theworld, and therefore onto others.
Perhaps by projection you meant "somethign not real", but of course projections are VERY real. Being projected
doesn't mean "made up". Tehrefore you can have an abusive mother and ALSO project abusiveness onto yourmother, note it there, and call her abusive. This happens all the time. It's a fine balance between someone who
is genuinely abusive, and someone who is a hook for abusiveness to be projected onto. Normally it's a mix ofboth.
I think generally we can define projection as the lack of recognition or the denial of particular character traits orbheaviours, whilst noticing those same behaviours, or attributing them, to someone else. Take Moon opposition
Saturn, and seeing the motehr as being emotinoally cold and restrictive, whilst not being aware of your own
emotional coldness. After all, it's YOUR chart, not hers. But this emotional coldness or restrictiveness is notconsidered pleasant, and therefore ripe to be projected onto others. As the moon is a classic mother archetype,the mother, regardless of what she's ACTUALLY like, is the perfect hook for projection.
Now, having said all this, I tend to think of any difficult aspect as being liable for projection, as generally we
project those things which we dislike or find uncomfortable, but I do think that oppositions more so thansquares tend to be projected. Oppositions tend to be where two planets express in very different ways but are
inextricably connected, until consciousness is raised, it can often be the case that one side of that opposition iseasier to express or more 'comfortable' or more habitual than the other. By affiliating with that side, the otherside appears to 'happen to them' or appear as though it involves external behaviour, stimuli or events, and so
we see that these external behaviour or stimuli are suitable hooks for projections.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #16 - on: 26.09.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1] »Basically remember that astrology states that we come into the world with certain expectations of what theworld is like and who we'll meet.
If you've Moon opposition Saturn, etc. then perhaps you'll NOTICE those times when the mother was distant or
not around or didn't hug you or change your nappy on time, or who ignored you or who was stern or strict andharsh and cold. You notice it because you have an a priori expectation of it. You came into the world
EXPECTING that of the mother. Therefore you notice those times when she conforms to expectation much moreso than when she doesn't. You didn't notice as often all the times she wasn't. What the actual mother is like isoften irrelevant, the fact is that the moon and her aspects etc. may indicate what you expect of the mother
REGARDLESS of what she's actually like. To see how she actually is, we'd have to look at HER chart, not yours.
All we can tell from your chart is how you expect to experience her.
We mustn't ever forget this.
As a result we project the moon and all her complexes (aspects, signs, houses etc) onto the mother, or at least
some of it as pertaining to that archetype, regardless of the aspect, simply because we tend to project thewhole chart onto the world, just as much as we see the world affecting and reflecting into us as well.
But the opposition, being a divisive aspect which suggests affiliation with one side over another, this idea of
projection is amplified.
However in my view the entire chart is projected at varying points, but in particular the difficult or stressful
aspects are more commonly or more often projected because we tend to project those qualities of ourselves
which we find dishonourable or uncomfortable or 'negative'. And the opposition, being divisive anyway, inparticular.
However, I do think these aspect based projections are situational. Inconjuncts benig more likely projected dueto their being less conscious. With oppositions, the task is to internalise and 'own' them, so you stop projecting
one half or the other. But inconjunctions are much more about 'not seeing' one antoher, so being less conscious
and this suggests less able to recognise your projections to even start unifying them. I don't really see theinconjunctions as true 'aspects', I see them more as 'anti-aspects'.
So aspects projected situationnally, whereas the 7th house is much more likely to be projected on a moregeneral level.
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Ethereal Mountain

Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #17 - on: 26.09.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1] »So how would planets in the 7th be projected? What if a person has one of their lights in the 7th, Sun or
Moon? Do they project these vital parts of themselves on to others, and how do they learn to own them?
(I have almost all planets on the left side, and no oppositions. If I project things it would likely be related to
Posts: 1039
Gender:12th house/Neptune/lack of self knowledge - lack of boundaries regarding what is me or what is the otherperson. I'd like to understand this other type of chart, with important planets in the 7th and oppositions).

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Ethereal

Re: Projection in the chart

Mountain« Reply #18 - on: 26.09.2011 at 12:42 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from bibbe on 25.09.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1]:

B could be the case in a male chart, A E in females.
M could represent something also.
Repressed energy.

Posts: 1039
Gender:Yes, I can imagine M energy being blamed on other people
one to make my own call on it...

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #19 - on: 26.09.2011 at 12:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 26.09.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1]:
So how would planets in the 7th be projected? What if a person has one of their lights in the 7th, Sun or Moon? Do they project these vital
parts of themselves on to others, and how do they learn to own them?

Yes, I believe they MAY do, we can never tell for sure what someone WILL do, but in my view it's a highly likely
scenario.
They way I see it is that the Ascendant represents ourselves and our relationship to what we understand of
ourselves and our place in the outer world. We recognise ourselves at the Ascendant.
The Descendant 'belongs' (read: is projected onto) other people. It's what other people are, or what we expectof them. We all do this to some extent if by no other way than by the ruling planet of the descendant, unlessother chart factors mitigate this.
But a luminary in the 7th suggests that the qualities of that luminary are naturally associted with OTHERS,
particularly with relationships but not necessarily.
Take Sun on the 7th. The meaning of the Sun - where and how we shine, developing ourselves, our hopes etc. are tied up with OTHER people. Maybe OTHER people shine, other people are needed for you yourself to shine.
Typically this is in relationships. So you feel like you cannot really express your true self or develop your true
self or follow your inner calling unless with a partner, or through a partner, or you need a partner to actualise itwith you.
Conversely, you may pin the hopes and expectations of developing this sun onto the other. This was much moretrue of, for example, women, prior to the 20th century (and the gender equality which followed it), where,
regardless of house position, women GENERALLY lived their sun through their partner. In some ways the Sun in
the 7th has that idea with it, and it can sometiems be the case that the person with the sun in the 7th looks forsomeone who they expect to realise these qualities - and bitterness and resentment can occur if they fail to doso.
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Ethereal
Mountain

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #20 - on: 26.09.2011 at 12:49 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from Lynne on 25.09.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1]:

But forgive me if I've misunderstood the meaning of projection. Â

Posts: 1039
Gender:Well that is a point - I haven't really defined what I mean by projection and therefore what I am asking about,have I? Really I'm asking about clues in the chart that might suggest someone would be inclined to disownparts of themselves and see them in other people instead. And when people get extreme about things, say they
absolutely can't stand some sort of character trait or type of person...a shadow? Where do we find our shadow
in the chart?

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #21 - on: 26.09.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 26.09.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1]:(I have almost all planets on the left side, and no oppositions. If I project things it would likely be related to 12th house/Neptune/lack ofself knowledge - lack of boundaries regarding what is me or what is the other person. I'd like to understand this other type of chart, with
important planets in the 7th and oppositions).

Which suggests you have less 'awareness' of the 'Other' and so are less conscious of that hemisphere, or lessfocused upon it. Check the ruler of the 7th and see if it describes qualities you EXPECT from the other, normallya partner.
Remember though that I really believe we can project ANYTHING, and in my view some signs are actually more
liable to it than others, depending on the rising. We project anythign disfavourable or that makes us
uncomfortable. It's just that the 7th, 12th, oppositions (and more so inconjunctions) are particular places tolook.
I'd also look to planets in the first, if Libra or Leo is rising, as generally, those signs tend to apply a soft filter to
how they see themselves (unlike, say, scorpio rising) and so if there's something unfavourable there that
doesn't fit in with their view of who they are and how they see themselves, they can quickly be projected.
of course we can all do this. that's the whole point. I'm just suggesting things that are particularly noticeable or
worth checknig or watching.
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TigerLily
Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #22 - on: 26.09.2011 at 13:08 [UT+1] »Projection is a type of defence machanism, where defence mechanisms are used in order for the ego to copewith anxiety.
There are healthy and unhealthy types of defence mechanism found here.
http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_7.htm

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Ethereal Mountain

Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #23 - on: 26.09.2011 at 13:16 [UT+1] »Yes well that is what I am thinking about, so thank you.

Posts: 1039
Gender:Well I think you're onto something, I do seem to be having some difficulty understanding my relationship with'the other' - and my 7th rulership is a bit complicated, because it's in the 1st! That's confusing, because I
already have the qualities I am supposed to be looking for. In the past, I have definitely looked for Mercurial
qualities in others, not that I am short of them, but then I quickly feel like this other person seems Mercurial
almost to the exclusion of other qualities, like emotion, and I start feeling unfulfilled by this relationship that I
actually sought out in the first place. It's like the qualities I seek in relation to my 7th, are not really thequalities that I need to have in a partner, although they are some of them! Because if the person was notcurious about the world and liked to talk about things beneath the surface of life, I would run even faster thanif they were unemotional, most likely! But then poor old Mercury's square the Moon, so the two must always
work together, even if it's with arms folded and their backs to each other!
But yes, it's difficult to understand how this 7th ruler in the 1st works. I wouldn't say there's a lack of focus on'the other' because of that placement, and with the square to the moon, which is in Libra.
But anyway the point of the thread is more trying to understand things like how the Sun or moon in the 7th
can work, etc. Sometimes I see things in charts and it makes me wonder whether a person might be likely to
try to see some of their traits outside of themselves, rather than to see themselves as something quite
complex. Your point on a sign like Leo is interesting - I certainly have been the subject of attacks by people
who would want to point the finger away from themselves.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #24 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 26.09.2011 at 13:16 [UT+1]:
But then poor old Mercury's square the Moon, so the two must always work together, even if it's with arms folded and their backs to eachother!

Ha ha, yes, I was just thinking if it was in difficult aspect to the Moon as I was reading it. Really what you needis someone who is able to be emotional and comforting, but not afraid to debate a point or discuss a situation
eloquently!
Quote:Your point on a sign like Leo is interesting - I certainly have been the subject of attacks by people who would want to point the finger
away from themselves.

I'd like to stress I'm against sign based stereotyping of any kind, and that ANYONE can do this, but just seeing
as these signs in particular tend to see themselves in a certain way (when rising) I think it sort of fits with themmore to disown anything which is unfavourable to that public image.
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Lynne

Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #25 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:19 [UT+1] »How does the 12th house relate to projection?
...what or how am I projecting my 12th house stuff?

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Re: Projection in the chart

leprechaun
Ex Member« Reply #26 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:20 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 26.09.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1]:(I have almost all planets on the left side, and no oppositions. If I project things it would likely be related to 12thhouse/Neptune/lack of self knowledge - lack of boundaries regarding what is me or what is the other person. I'd like tounderstand this other type of chart, with important planets in the 7th and oppositions).

Which suggests you have less 'awareness' of the 'Other' and so are less conscious of that hemisphere, or less focused upon it. Check theruler of the 7th and see if it describes qualities you EXPECT from the other, normally a partner.
Remember though that I really believe we can project ANYTHING, and in my view some signs are actually more liable to it than others,
depending on the rising. We project anythign disfavourable or that makes us uncomfortable. It's just that the 7th, 12th, oppositions (andmore so inconjunctions) are particular places to look.
I'd also look to planets in the first, if Libra or Leo is rising, as generally, those signs tend to apply a soft filter to how they see themselves(unlike, say, scorpio rising) and so if there's something unfavourable there that doesn't fit in with their view of who they are and how they
see themselves, they can quickly be projected.
of course we can all do this. that's the whole point. I'm just suggesting things that are particularly noticeable or worth checknig orwatching.

My husband is libra rising with a plethora of planets in the 1st, COg and ADE h ALL in the first. His
projections frustrate the hell out of me, and from my perspective is the biggest problem in our marriage. I
personally think you are onto something there Paul!
L
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #27 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 26.09.2011 at 14:19 [UT+1]:
How does the 12th house relate to projection?
...what or how am I projecting my 12th house stuff?

All the houses/signs in aversion to the ascendant are less conscious (hence the inconjunction figuring as well),but the 12th, more so than the others, are where we are LEAST conscious. It is those unconscious elements ofourselves that are projected - not for nothing is it the house of SELF undoing. It's where we are least consciousof our own motivations and behaviours and so do not recognise them in ourselves. But of course they are stillin our lives and so we meet them in life, but as we don't recognise them as belonging to us, we assume they
belong to others.
I see all these types of projection differently of course. Tehy all have different qualities. Oftentimes you see
when someone has the same sign on the ascendant as they do on their 12th house cusp, you notice that they
really are their own worst enemies when they fail to recognise their own behaviour.
Not just in natal, but in horary we see this from time to time as well.
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TigerLily
Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #28 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:32 [UT+1] »Are the projection effects of the 12H still present if the 12H is empty? If this was true then it may not be amajor issue or theme.

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Lynne

Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #29 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:39 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 14:29 [UT+1]:
It's where we are least conscious of our own motivations and behaviours and so do not recognise them in ourselves. But of course they arestill in our lives and so we meet them in life, but as we don't recognise them as belonging to us, we assume they belong to others.

Sometimes it feels like the best of me is locked up, but no one gave me a key?
H12 ACFKI admire those the most with the qualities that I have, but can't express....is that projection?
Projection can also be about giving away your positive characteristics, right?

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Re: Projection in the chart_Paul_Ex Member« Reply #30 - on: 26.09.2011 at 14:47 [UT+1] »Quote from leprechaun on 26.09.2011 at 14:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 26.09.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1]:(I have almost all planets on the left side, and no oppositions. If I project things it would likely be related to12th house/Neptune/lack of self knowledge - lack of boundaries regarding what is me or what is the otherperson. I'd like to understand this other type of chart, with important planets in the 7th and oppositions).

Which suggests you have less 'awareness' of the 'Other' and so are less conscious of that hemisphere, or less focused upon
it. Check the ruler of the 7th and see if it describes qualities you EXPECT from the other, normally a partner.
Remember though that I really believe we can project ANYTHING, and in my view some signs are actually more liable to it
than others, depending on the rising. We project anythign disfavourable or that makes us uncomfortable. It's just that the
7th, 12th, oppositions (and more so inconjunctions) are particular places to look.
I'd also look to planets in the first, if Libra or Leo is rising, as generally, those signs tend to apply a soft filter to how they
see themselves (unlike, say, scorpio rising) and so if there's something unfavourable there that doesn't fit in with theirview of who they are and how they see themselves, they can quickly be projected.
of course we can all do this. that's the whole point. I'm just suggesting things that are particularly noticeable or worth
checknig or watching.

My husband is libra rising with a plethora of planets in the 1st,

COg and ADE h ALL in the first. His projections frustrate the hell outof me, and from my perspective is the biggest problem in our marriage. I personally think you are onto something there Paul!
L

I've noticed it for a long long time. It's true of anyone, but in particular those signs when rising.
Of course I've no doubt there are many people that this doesn't apply to, I'm not trying to stereotype a sign
here, just a trait I've noticed with certain rising signs.
I think because, if we take Libra as an example, teh tendancy is for Libra to see itself as fair and harmonious of course in reality, many many many charts of war leaders will have Libra very strong (seldom Aries, Aries is
the soldier actually fighting). I think Liz Greene sums it up by saying that Libra wants things fair, fair as theysee it, not as anyone else does. And hey, if that means upending the apple cart to 'sort it out' then so be it.
Libra rising has no problem going to war if it means fixing the perceived problem to the way Libra wants it even if nobody else thought it was a problem. In addition there's the "who's the fairest of them all" problem
with Libra. Cos the answer is always "Libra is", and that underscores a basic idea of Libra being whiter thanwhite. Sure, they'll say, I have problems just like everyone else, I'm not perfect, but in practice we seldom seethat side, if something's gone wrong, the gut reaction is to assume that somebody else is being selfish or hascaused it. It takes a lot for Libra to realise its own selfishness and its own hand in problems, because it goesagainst what the archetype of Libra builds itself upon.
Just my opinion on the matter. I have loads of Libra friends and loads of Libra rising friends - I have 5 planetsin air so I tend to attract air signs to me. My best friend is a triple Libra in fact. I've nothing against Libra,
anymore than I'd have problems against Scorpio when I say they can be 'suspicious'.
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MaryD

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Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #31 - on: 26.09.2011 at 15:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 26.09.2011 at 14:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 14:29 [UT+1]:
It's where we are least conscious of our own motivations and behaviours and so do not recognise them in ourselves. But ofcourse they are still in our lives and so we meet them in life, but as we don't recognise them as belonging to us, we
assume they belong to others.

Sometimes it feels like the best of me is locked up, but no one gave me a key?
H12

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ACFK

I admire those the most with the qualities that I have, but can't express....is that projection?
Projection can also be about giving away your positive characteristics, right?

Yeah, I feel much the same...though I'm not bothered that no one gave me the key.
I remember one day a friend got very upset with me and shouted at me "you're a h!! where's your ego!??!!!"
I think I answered something like, "I have one, just I don't need it right now"
12H ACEOK

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #32 - on: 26.09.2011 at 15:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 26.09.2011 at 14:39 [UT+1]:
Projection can also be about giving away your positive characteristics, right?

I think we generally project those things which are unflattering to us, or which we dislike or are uncomfortable
with.
I actually think that 12H sun people project onto others the feeling of responsibility or of failure that they feelfor themselves. Often 12H Sun people feel tehy have some hidden or powerful vocation, if only they candiscover what it is. But there can be a fear of discovering it, because on some deep level, they feel they can't
actually realise it anyway. Therefore it can be projected.
We seldom project positive qualities unless we feel others can handle them better than we can, or can realise
them better than we can. And when we do, and then discover that they don't realise them? What then?
Something I also notice about 12H Sun ppl which may be related is that they sometimes are only children, theeldest child, or that they were 'planned', or that the child was talked about before being born or 'needed' by theparents somehow. Like when parents whose relationships are struggling choose to have a child who will 'makeeverything okay'. This kind of unattainable destiny is pushed onto the child, who grows up feeling that they
have some destiny or vocation to play out, some importance that is never mentioned outright, but that
ultimately the child feels cannot be fulfilled, or fears that they are incapable of it or not equal to the task. I've
noticed this fairly frequently. Projections come into play then, but more often is fantasy making, where theindividual mythifies their potential or calling into something grandiose, or untestable. One example which
springs to mind is a woman who mythified her existence by reference to 'past lives' and suggestions of how she
knows such and such, or feels such and such because in a past life she was The Grand High Priestess of Atlantis
and a great spiritual teacher and communicator in one or otehr previous life.
But what of this life? In this life she's a single mother divorcee blaming her husband for all the wrongs in herlife and squeezing him for as much child support and money as she can get out of him, all the while living a
relatively easy life on a mix of benefits and work as a reiki healer. Her attitude to her husband is bitter andvenemous. She was drawn to him because he was financially successful and could provide abundant material
security as well as teach her a good business sense - she who was relatively uneducated and left school early.
She is Taurus rising, with the Sun in the 12th in Taurus, not in conjunction with the Ascendant.
This is pretty plain to me. Feeling inadaquate to the task of realising her own 'destiny' in taurus - being themaster of her own taurean fate - she projected this onto a likely hook - a financially successful businessman
who was, to be blunt, rich. She projected her own desire for financial and material success and security onto
him and then resented him for her not feeling rewarded by it. So she did energy work and reiki healing something intangible that works on the body (so grasping toward taurus here), but justifies her opinions andexistence by something which can never be verified (and therefore she can never fail - too much responsibility)
by mythologising her existence by way of her past lives.
Nothing of her current life would suggest that any wisdom has passed on from those previous lives if they
existed, particularly seen by her need to squeeze as much out of her husband as she can - jealous and now
bitter of the very thing that attracted her to him in the first place - his ability to adaquately use and manifest
the taurean ideals.
He, for his part, has Sun in the 7th in Scorpio. And does the typical Scorpio thing - tried to buy affection andlove. Shower her with riches and maybe she'll love me, or failing that, at least stay with me and I can love her
forever.
A sad situation all around. I've not seen her children's charts, but would be interestnig how this is reflected intheir own charts.
Either way we can see the projection all around really, which, as astrologers, we have a pretty unique insight on.
We might argue that she simply projected her own good qualities (good business sense and material mastery taurus) onto him. But what good did it do her? Ultimately when we project the Sun (or any planet, butparticularly the sun) and they don't realise it on our behalf, or don't bother to try to actualise it for us, what
we're left with is feeling resentment and bitterness - all for the crime of not doing our own work for us. Harsh,
but no less true.

EDIT:
PS - this is more how I interpret natal charts. In the past I have defended traditional astrology and the
traditional approach and as a result many are left with the impression that I must, by proxy, dislike
psychological astrology or be unfamiliar with it. In fact this could not be further from teh truth. I recognise theusefulness of both and how I interpret a natal chart is utterly different to how I do a horary chart for example. I
think that ultimately I use a mix of both traditional and psychological astrology in my day to day natal
astrology.
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

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Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #33 - on: 26.09.2011 at 15:19 [UT+1] »I thought this was an excellent book for explaining both Shadow/Projection and the astrology associated with
it: http://www.shadowdance.com/
Like Paul, I don't necessarily think that projection is a bad thing. I think it's a necessary thing, especially forour spiritual growth.
In my 15+ years participating in a Jungian dream interpretation group, I have learned that the Shadow merely
represents aspects of ourselves that we have not yet integrated into our psyches. The integration is necessary
for better balance/spiritual growth. We often attract people into our lives who have qualities we need tointegrate (or balance) in our own selves. The other person can often manifest these qualities in an extreme
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way, which can be very unbalanced within THEM. Often, we might hold the qualities they need to become morebalanced themselves. It's synergistic.
It seems to be true, especially for dreams, that the MORE we resist owning certain aspects of our Shadow, themore EXTREME we will find them represented in our lives through others and in our dreams. It's our spirit's
way of getting our attention. I find that when we are more conscious and aware of our Shadow and spirituallessons, the less dramatic the projections become. There is a constant dialogue between our inner worlds andouter worlds. The more we are active listeners and communicators in this spiritual dialogue, the more subtle
the conversation becomes.

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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #34 - on: 26.09.2011 at 15:47 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 15:01 [UT+1]:
PS - this is more how I interpret natal charts. In the past I have defended traditional astrology and the traditional approach and as a result
many are left with the impression that I must, by proxy, dislike psychological astrology or be unfamiliar with it. In fact this could not be
further from teh truth. I recognise the usefulness of both and how I interpret a natal chart is utterly different to how I do a horary chartfor example. I think that ultimately I use a mix of both traditional and psychological astrology in my day to day natal astrology.

It must be that ambidextrous Gemini nature of yours. Two people in one.
Interesting answer to my question, thank you. I have to think about it for a while.
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Matrika Matters

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Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #35 - on: 26.09.2011 at 17:36 [UT+1] »_Paul_ Quote:
All the houses/signs in aversion to the ascendant are less conscious (hence the inconjunction figuring as well), but the 12th, more so thanthe others, are where we are LEAST conscious. It is those unconscious elements of ourselves that are projected - not for nothing is it thehouse of SELF undoing. It's where we are least conscious of our own motivations and behaviours and so do not recognise them inourselves. But of course they are still in our lives and so we meet them in life, but as we don't recognise them as belonging to us, wePosts: 7405

assume they belong to others.

That's one of the benefits of meditation, to become familiar with what is inside us to the extent that we are free
to function without those mechanisms kicking in unconsciously. I believe the twelfth house can also indicate weare focussing on those hidden parts of ourselves if we have a Sun placement there...
I agree that projecting is something we all do and we all don't realize we are doing it. Easier to see in someone
else than in ourselves.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #36 - on: 26.09.2011 at 18:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Matrika on 26.09.2011 at 17:36 [UT+1]:_Paul_ Quote:
All the houses/signs in aversion to the ascendant are less conscious (hence the inconjunction figuring as well), but the
12th, more so than the others, are where we are LEAST conscious. It is those unconscious elements of ourselves that are
projected - not for nothing is it the house of SELF undoing. It's where we are least conscious of our own motivations andbehaviours and so do not recognise them in ourselves. But of course they are still in our lives and so we meet them in life,
but as we don't recognise them as belonging to us, we assume they belong to others.

That's one of the benefits of meditation, to become familiar with what is inside us to the extent that we are free to function without thosemechanisms kicking in unconsciously. I believe the twelfth house can also indicate we are focussing on those hidden parts of ourselves if
we have a Sun placement there...
I agree that projecting is something we all do and we all don't realize we are doing it. Easier to see in someone else than in ourselves.

Yes, I think mindfulness meditation is one way in which we can become more conscious of our otherwise
unconscious desires and behaviours. It's certainly a step toward ownership of them, so that they're notprojected onto others.
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

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Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #37 - on: 26.09.2011 at 18:40 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 18:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Matrika on 26.09.2011 at 17:36 [UT+1]:_Paul_ Quote:
All the houses/signs in aversion to the ascendant are less conscious (hence the inconjunction figuring aswell), but the 12th, more so than the others, are where we are LEAST conscious. It is those unconscious
elements of ourselves that are projected - not for nothing is it the house of SELF undoing. It's where we areleast conscious of our own motivations and behaviours and so do not recognise them in ourselves. But ofcourse they are still in our lives and so we meet them in life, but as we don't recognise them as belonging
to us, we assume they belong to others.

That's one of the benefits of meditation, to become familiar with what is inside us to the extent that we are free tofunction without those mechanisms kicking in unconsciously. I believe the twelfth house can also indicate we are focussing

Posts: 4677

on those hidden parts of ourselves if we have a Sun placement there...
I agree that projecting is something we all do and we all don't realize we are doing it. Easier to see in someone else thanin ourselves.

Yes, I think mindfulness meditation is one way in which we can become more conscious of our otherwise unconscious desires andbehaviours. It's certainly a step toward ownership of them, so that they're not projected onto others.

Agreed. And also paying attention to your dreams, keeping a dream journal will help you to recognize themes
and Shadow elements.
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Marle
Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #38 - on: 26.09.2011 at 19:48 [UT+1] »I don't understand "projection" much. What I understand is that often we take others or others take us forwhat we are not. Maybe that could be called "imagination" (wrong).

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MaryonMember

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #39 - on: 26.09.2011 at 19:57 [UT+1] »Hai for the ones who understand dutch I want to mention this book: "Het projectie mechanisme in de praktijk"
by Hamaker-Zondag, K.M . She has also writen astrology books and some of them has been translated in
english. I hope this one will be translated to since I think it is one of the best books about projection.
nm Maryon

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AriAnAEx Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #40 - on: 27.09.2011 at 13:22 [UT+1] »Quote from bibbe on 25.09.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1]:

B could be the case in a male chart, A E in females.
M could represent something also.
Repressed energy.

not sure about this. im a female. i have troubles with my moon. its opposed pluto. and i tend to project myinner deep conlficts (pluto 4th) into the public or profesional field (10th) or so i think. maybe would be also
pluto in a female chart, i dont know.
i've got two big opositions in my chart: moon-pluto, and sun-neptune. my projections revolve around them.
as someone saied: i think in the case for the moon, is in a fire sign, i project it.
in case of the sun, is in a water sign, i am more receptive. dont know wich one of the two causes me more
confusion
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TigerLily

Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #41 - on: 27.09.2011 at 14:15 [UT+1] »Quote from Juliet on 26.09.2011 at 18:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.09.2011 at 18:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Matrika on 26.09.2011 at 17:36 [UT+1]:_Paul_ Quote:
All the houses/signs in aversion to the ascendant are less conscious (hence the inconjunction
figuring as well), but the 12th, more so than the others, are where we are LEAST conscious. It
is those unconscious elements of ourselves that are projected - not for nothing is it the house of
SELF undoing. It's where we are least conscious of our own motivations and behaviours and so
do not recognise them in ourselves. But of course they are still in our lives and so we meet

Posts: 882
Gender:them in life, but as we don't recognise them as belonging to us, we assume they belong toothers.

That's one of the benefits of meditation, to become familiar with what is inside us to the extent that we arefree to function without those mechanisms kicking in unconsciously. I believe the twelfth house can also
indicate we are focussing on those hidden parts of ourselves if we have a Sun placement there...
I agree that projecting is something we all do and we all don't realize we are doing it. Easier to see insomeone else than in ourselves.

Yes, I think mindfulness meditation is one way in which we can become more conscious of our otherwise unconscious
desires and behaviours. It's certainly a step toward ownership of them, so that they're not projected onto others.

Agreed. And also paying attention to your dreams, keeping a dream journal will help you to recognize themes and Shadow elements.

I really want to do this, keep a dreams journal, the problem is that I find it difficult to remember my dreams,
and on the occasions when I do, they are difficult to understand. I also tend to dream a lot of different
situations in one sleep session, so I often extract part of my dreams to try and understand. I have a very
overactive mind and imagination and it plays out in my dreams too.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #42 - on: 27.09.2011 at 14:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Bachelorette on 27.09.2011 at 14:15 [UT+1]:
I really want to do this, keep a dreams journal, the problem is that I find it difficult to remember my dreams, and on the occasions when I
do, they are difficult to understand. I also tend to dream a lot of different situations in one sleep session, so I often extract part of mydreams to try and understand. I have a very overactive mind and imagination and it plays out in my dreams too.

In my experience you have to first tell your mind that your dreams are worth remembering. Before you go to
bed spend some time meditating and clearing your mind and 'listening' to your inner dialogue, then after you
do the usual bed time rituals (brushing teeth etc) lie in bed and 'instruct' your mind to remember your dreams.
keep a pen and a journal near the bed with a lamp that is weak in light, so as not to wake you too much.
Everytime you wake up during the night, if at all, record whatever you remember from the dreams. They don't
have to have a narrative or make sense. Just jot down what you remember even if it's bitty. In time you'll findthat you can record dreams in greater detail and richness, and perhaps even lucid dream.
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TigerLily

Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #43 - on: 28.09.2011 at 10:48 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2011 at 14:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Bachelorette on 27.09.2011 at 14:15 [UT+1]:
I really want to do this, keep a dreams journal, the problem is that I find it difficult to remember my dreams, and on theoccasions when I do, they are difficult to understand. I also tend to dream a lot of different situations in one sleep session,
so I often extract part of my dreams to try and understand. I have a very overactive mind and imagination and it plays
out in my dreams too.

In my experience you have to first tell your mind that your dreams are worth remembering. Before you go to bed spend some time

Posts: 882
Gender:meditating and clearing your mind and 'listening' to your inner dialogue, then after you do the usual bed time rituals (brushing teeth etc)
lie in bed and 'instruct' your mind to remember your dreams.
keep a pen and a journal near the bed with a lamp that is weak in light, so as not to wake you too much. Everytime you wake up during
the night, if at all, record whatever you remember from the dreams. They don't have to have a narrative or make sense. Just jot down
what you remember even if it's bitty. In time you'll find that you can record dreams in greater detail and richness, and perhaps even lucid
dream.

Thanks for the tip Paul, pretty interesting! The difficult part for me would be trying to clear my head as I find it
hard to relax. My mind is always racing and wandering off to different places. Being a Hindu, I do try to
meditate/pray every morning, but some days it's just difficult. I have started to do some breathing exercises
and they help, so now its improved a great deal.
I will give this a go as I have been dreaming a lot more than usual, I blame tr. J on BI.
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bibbeEx Member

Re: Projection in the chart« Reply #44 - on: 28.09.2011 at 14:26 [UT+1] »Quote from AriAnA on 27.09.2011 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from bibbe on 25.09.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1]:

B could be the case in a male chart, A E in females.
M could represent something also.
Repressed energy.

not sure about this. im a female. i have troubles with my moon. its opposed pluto. and i tend to project my inner deep conlficts (pluto4th) into the public or profesional field (10th) or so i think. maybe would be also pluto in a female chart, i dont know.
i've got two big opositions in my chart: moon-pluto, and sun-neptune. my projections revolve around them.
as someone saied: i think in the case for the moon, is in a fire sign, i project it.
in case of the sun, is in a water sign, i am more receptive. dont know wich one of the two causes me more confusion

Yes, sounds very accurate with the water as receptive. I have Bl and am a sponge. The wholeenvironement/people could inpact me (sensitive on many levels) so I need a solitude, perhaps just someminutes to get back my ratinional me. Usually I recognize when I´m projected to (here I mean bigger issues)
wheather it is concious or unconcious from the other. But it took years to see the patterns, but they are there.
It is a scapegoat position, as I feel it. It causes anger/frustaration but what can I do? But that doesn´t mean I
project things on others too, but am quite aware of the mecanism, I guess (job needs that kind of ability, akind of objectivity)
As here is written that not all projections are bad. I like to project my enthusiasm on others so I get things to
be done. This is somekind of manipulation too. But I think it has to do with transformational way to "lead"(job) and I have J qp MC and ASC. Sometimes this "power" is overwhelming me, and I have to step back andreflect on it... not wanting to use it in a wrong way. Have fire in my chart; EG in i so I´m much of the"male" of my own... circumstances has made it that way. Have thought about this... propably have to do with
my defences which doesn´t work at the best in the significant relationship arena. I can´t bear to be week andthat is what is expected in the male/female connections. But that´s my nature...to be strong when others are
weak. Not that I don´t wish to be the one who gets spoiled by my loved ones but that isn´t the case in my life

BJ connections could be matters from the childhood (mother issues)that still bothers the free flow of theMoon and it needs. J burries things in the uncounsous when matter are to bad to handle. The healing of thewounds (psychological) starts when you recognize them.
The part of AI could be the "missing" father... the child who whis so much but somehow the idealization of
how things could be is not met in this world.
I have IoA..perhaps easier to understand the patteren as
the o needs to be resolved(well, they don´t
but I have some understanding of the concept)
Bibbe
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