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Saturn tests - a question of semantics (Read 1168 times)

Pearl Diver
MemberSaturn tests - a question of semantics« on: 11.02.2011 at 17:24 [UT] »Hi, this is just as much to cast this to my memory as to provoke discussion, but I would love to know what
people think - and it's never a bad time to bring up the old Greater Malefic is it???
So I have always struggled with a simple conceptual starting point to imagine the effects of G in each sign. For
some reason, the simple phrase "where we are tested" has always fallen short for me. I understand the tests of
Ge because it's my natal, but others have eluded me.
I find it interesting, in which case, that this idea just popped into my head and completely resolved thePosts: 957
Gender:situation. Now I can put words like 'initiative' in the gap and imagine how a Ga feels or 'foundations' b,'authority' e,'philosophy/belief system' i, etc etc
Here's the sentence:"Afraid of testing one's........ in case it is found wanting."
So is everyone reading my words here and thinking 'yes, well done for catching up' and yawning, or does
anyone else find it quite a useful way of organising the G principle?

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #1 - on: 11.02.2011 at 17:26 [UT] »I think your concept is good and your sentence is good.

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Pearl Diver
Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #2 - on: 11.02.2011 at 17:32 [UT] »Where's the 'like' button on this forum? Thanks Stephen...

Posts: 957
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Noyab Nunca

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #3 - on: 11.02.2011 at 17:35 [UT] »Quote from Pearl Diver on 11.02.2011 at 17:24 [UT]:
Hi, this is just as much to cast this to my memory as to provoke discussion, but I would love to know what people think - and it's never abad time to bring up the old Greater Malefic is it???

G

So I have always struggled with a simple conceptual starting point to imagine the effects ofin each sign. For some reason, the simple
phrase "where we are tested" has always fallen short for me. I understand the tests ofbecause it's my natal, but others have eludedme.

Ge

I find it interesting, in which case, that this idea just popped into my head and completely resolved the situation. Now I can put words like
'initiative' in the gap and imagine how afeels or 'foundations', 'authority','philosophy/belief system', etc etc

Ga

b

e

i

Here's the sentence:"Afraid of testing one's........ in case it is found wanting."
So is everyone reading my words here and thinking 'yes, well done for catching up' and yawning, or does anyone else find it quite a useful
way of organising theprinciple?

G

I think of it more in terms of"Afraid of testing one's........ in case it is found lacking
I say this, with an understanding that often we feel a "want" where we feel "lacking" but it is not always desirethat makes us have to stick our nose to the grindstone, it's a blatant and reoccuring realization that we are nottending to matters that seem too burdensome.
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Pearl Diver
Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #4 - on: 11.02.2011 at 17:38 [UT] »Agree that 'lacking' is an appropriate substitution. Similar idea.

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Aquamaid

Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #5 - on: 11.02.2011 at 17:41 [UT] »Ga afraid of testing my independence/initiative/assertiveness in case it is found wanting.
Ga sits in my 4th house and my husband died on my G return and I have been a single parent since so fitswith all my fears of being a single parent and my worries about how this has affected my children.
hope that helps an gives some insightPosts: 3999
Gender:good luck
Angi

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rookishMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #6 - on: 11.02.2011 at 17:41 [UT] »I wouldn't use the afraid part. Too negative.

G shows where you are tested to your own standards, or your standards may be tested. But fear is not
automatically part of that. Fear arises from maladaptive G energy. You may as well say
determination/tenaciousness/ambition/discipline in testing initiative (authority, mind, humanity etc) andsucceeding through application.

Posts: 3675

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Linda Harris

Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #7 - on: 11.02.2011 at 18:13 [UT] »"Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #6 - on: Today at 17:41 [UT+0] »I wouldn't use the afraid part. Too negative."

AND ....here we go with semantics.
Posts: 17033

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Noyab Nunca
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #8 - on: 11.02.2011 at 18:24 [UT] »Quote from rookish on 11.02.2011 at 17:41 [UT]:
I wouldn't use the afraid part. Too negative.

G shows where you are tested to your own standards, or your standards may be tested. But fear is not automatically part of that. Feararises from maladaptive G energy. You may as well say
determination/tenaciousness/ambition/discipline in testing initiative (authority, mind, humanity etc) and succeeding through application.

"Everything I learned in life, I learned from Saturn"
Saturn provides us knowledge of our weaknesses and shortcomings early on. Teaches us the difference between
wrong and right. If there is any fear at all involved, it's the fear of admitting we made the wrong choice. Fear of
our own responsibility to own-up to our mistakes? People usually blame Saturn because he holds us
accountable to the things we KNOW we are ignoring or being misdirected by.
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rookishMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #9 - on: 12.02.2011 at 02:13 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 11.02.2011 at 18:13 [UT]:"Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #6 - on: Today at 17:41 [UT+0] » I wouldn't use the afraid part. Too negative."
AND ....here we go with semantics.
LainiePosts: 3675

Maybe. I'd prefer to see it as an honest attempt to take away the fear in discussing and tackling G that is sooften built up in newcomers to astrology because of this negative portrayal of G which is after all our teacher,is our greatest growth opportunity - through our own reflection and hard work.

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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #10 - on: 12.02.2011 at 02:39 [UT] »Rookish, "newcomers" CAN'T really understand - or be expected to understand Saturn. It takes time. And study.
And first understanding their own personal planets...and after 'time' - a Saturn word - getting to know Saturnthough reading and research. At that time, after going through the maze we all go though on this journey, they
will get to know and therefore not fear or be undermined by (or any other word or term you want to use) - thisPosts: 17033"planet of necessity."
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #11 - on: 12.02.2011 at 02:48 [UT] »Quote from rookish on 12.02.2011 at 02:13 [UT]:
Quote from Linda Harris on 11.02.2011 at 18:13 [UT]:"Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #6 - on: Today at 17:41 [UT+0] » I wouldn't use the afraid part. Too negative."
AND ....here we go with semantics.
LainieMaybe. I'd prefer to see it as an honest attempt to take away the fear in discussing and tacklingGthat is so often built up in newcomers to astrology because of this negative portrayal of G whichis after all our teacher, is our greatest growth opportunity - through our own reflection and hardwork.

Why is constant growth always so desirable? There needs to be death and limitation too, otherwise you are left
with suffocating overgrowth. Saturn does that for us - or rather, Saturn shows that to us.
Dealing with fear itself - stepping into and through it - is a lesson, a very big important lesson. Avoidance offear with a whitewash of 'positive' words is medication. There's no need to make Saturn acceptable. And toturn astrology into a bottled prescription of happy, cheerful, "positive" chatter is a farce and a very dangerous
avoidance of life. Some aspects of life just suck. That's all there is to it. But most of it is mighty fine.
Do we really want to burden ourselves with the duty to see every bad thing that happens in our lives asopportunities for growth? That's moralistic pressure, forcing ourselves (and others) to always be strong and incontrol and appreciative of the fact that our spouse died, or we have cancer or we're broke. By taking away any
talk of negativity regarding Saturn - or astrology in general - you are forcing cheerfulness and acceptance onto
yourself and others.
The focus should be on one's philosophy on life, how one lives and accepts life. Not on refurbishing Saturn.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #12 - on: 12.02.2011 at 02:53 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 12.02.2011 at 02:39 [UT]:
Rookish, "newcomers" CAN'T really understand - or be expected to understand Saturn. It takes time. And study. And firstunderstanding their own personal planets...and after 'time' - a Saturn word - getting to know
Saturn though reading and research. At that time, after going through the maze we all go though on this journey, they will
get to know and therefore not fear or be undermined by (or any other word or term you want to use) - this "planet of necessity."
LainieBut there's a problem here when Saturn is a personal planet. Saturn ruling a Capricorn or Aquarius ascendantis going to be a personal planet for that person. Even Saturn simply located in the 1st house is personal.
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scorpiocap

Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #13 - on: 12.02.2011 at 03:32 [UT] »Quote from ZappoII on 12.02.2011 at 02:53 [UT]:
Quote from Linda Harris on 12.02.2011 at 02:39 [UT]:
Rookish, "newcomers" CAN'T really understand - or be expected to understand Saturn. It takes time. And study. And

first understanding their own personal planets...and after 'time' - a Saturn word Posts: 455
Gender:getting to know Saturn though reading and research. At that time, after going through the maze we
all go though on this journey, they will get to know and therefore not fear or be undermined by (or any other word or term
you want to use) - this "planet of necessity."
LainieBut there's a problem here when Saturn is a personal planet. Saturn ruling a Capricorn or Aquarius ascendant is going to be a personalplanet for that person. Even Saturn simply located in the 1st house is personal.

i have saturn in scor 10th house,cap ascendant,lack of sense of responsibility,fear of authority,pursue
success.always work hard to get anything i deserve,never won anything i don't deserve by luck in my career.assaturn in scor,have lots secrets,n wanna be left alone.wear a mask,only close friends know who i really am.n alesson to learn how to be myself too?i guess.
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Lynne
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #14 - on: 12.02.2011 at 05:11 [UT] »Quote from rookish on 12.02.2011 at 02:13 [UT]:

G that is so often built up in newcomers
G which is after all our teacher, is our greatest growth opportunity - through our own

Maybe. I'd prefer to see it as an honest attempt to take away the fear in discussing and tacklingto astrology because of this negative portrayal ofreflection and hard work.

We all feel fear in some part of our lives, if astrology newcomers can't find it anywhere in the astro
symbology....then they are being led up the garden path. I'd be frustrated.
Fear is a fact of life....and it's definately shown by Saturn.
Pearl Diver, I like your sentence and I'm trying to put Pisces in there.
Afraid of testing one's vulnerability in case it's found wanting....no, that doesn't really work. Maybe faith? Need
more time to think.
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Noyab Nunca

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #15 - on: 12.02.2011 at 05:48 [UT] »At the Astrodienst Bar & Grill "I'll take a shot of I with a G chaser"
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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #16 - on: 12.02.2011 at 06:02 [UT] »Or a shot of G, with a I chaser to get rid of the bad taste.
...hate Saturn..

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Noyab Nunca

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #17 - on: 12.02.2011 at 06:48 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 12.02.2011 at 06:02 [UT]:
Or a shot ofG, with a I chaser to get rid of the bad taste.

...hate Saturn..

Shouldn't. He's got your back among all others.

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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #18 - on: 12.02.2011 at 07:48 [UT] »"Afraid of testing one's courage, in case it's found wanting/lacking" .
~~~~Saturn, Neptune and I were sitting at the bar tonight, discussing this very matter.
They sextile so the conversation never gets out of hand,and Neptune will demure if Saturn orders a Prickly Pear'd Cocktail on principle:
She carries the epsom salts in her pockets, just in case, and he knows it.
Courage is standing up or sitting down with your principles.
Saturn's in my 2nd of values. I suffer from self-imposed de-valuation.
I was once accused by a lover of not "having the balls" to assert myself.
He's a Saturnian person, so I guess it took one to know one there;
his "volleyed ball" rings true to me.
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Marle

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #19 - on: 12.02.2011 at 11:02 [UT] »Quote from ZappoII on 12.02.2011 at 02:48 [UT]:That's moralistic pressure, forcing ourselves (and others) to always be strong and in control and appreciative of the fact that our spousedied, or we have cancer or we're broke. By taking away any talk of negativity regarding Saturn - or astrology in general - you are forcing
cheerfulness and acceptance onto yourself and others.

But we cannot say that some spouse died or someone has cancer because of Saturn, because that is simply nottrue.
And worse is when people say: "You have Saturn like this, you are going to have cancer".

Sometimes we don't realize how many negative false ideas are floating around in astrological discourse. Ideas
that we might have accepted as true with no base at all for it.

I find your comments very interesting many times, Zappo. I am just replying to you because I can see you
don't realize how many negative false ideas there are in traditional astrology.

In modern astrology there are also many false ideas, but in general they are not so scary and depressing.
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scorpiocap
Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #20 - on: 12.02.2011 at 13:16 [UT] »Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 11:02 [UT]:
Quote from ZappoII on 12.02.2011 at 02:48 [UT]:That's moralistic pressure, forcing ourselves (and others) to always be strong and in control and appreciative of the factthat our spouse died, or we have cancer or we're broke. By taking away any talk of negativity regarding Saturn - or

Posts: 455
Gender:astrology in general - you are forcing cheerfulness and acceptance onto yourself and others.

But we cannot say that some spouse died or someone has cancer because of Saturn, because that is simply not true.
And worse is when people say: "You have Saturn like this, you are going to have cancer".

Sometimes we don't realize how many negative false ideas are floating around in astrological discourse. Ideas that we might haveaccepted as true with no base at all for it.

I find your comments very interesting many times, Zappo. I am just replying to you because I can see you don't realize how many
negative false ideas there are in traditional astrology.

In modern astrology there are also many false ideas, but in general they are not so scary and depressing.

once i heard people talking about abortion aspects...saturn,or 5th house something,it's not true right??
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Marle

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #21 - on: 12.02.2011 at 13:33 [UT] »Quote from scorpiocap on 12.02.2011 at 13:16 [UT]:
Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 11:02 [UT]:
Quote from ZappoII on 12.02.2011 at 02:48 [UT]:That's moralistic pressure, forcing ourselves (and others) to always be strong and in control and appreciativeof the fact that our spouse died, or we have cancer or we're broke. By taking away any talk of negativity
regarding Saturn - or astrology in general - you are forcing cheerfulness and acceptance onto yourself andothers.

But we cannot say that some spouse died or someone has cancer because of Saturn, because that is simply not true.
And worse is when people say: "You have Saturn like this, you are going to have cancer".

Sometimes we don't realize how many negative false ideas are floating around in astrological discourse. Ideas that wemight have accepted as true with no base at all for it.

I find your comments very interesting many times, Zappo. I am just replying to you because I can see you don't realize
how many negative false ideas there are in traditional astrology.

In modern astrology there are also many false ideas, but in general they are not so scary and depressing.
once i heard people talking about abortion aspects...saturn,or 5th house something,it's not true right??

Of course it's not true!
Something a bit sad that is true: it is relatively normal to have an abortion.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #22 - on: 12.02.2011 at 13:36 [UT] »Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 13:33 [UT]:Something a bit sad that is true: it is relatively normal to have an abortion.

me, myself and I, have never considered this as an option. after all, i do not even have a womb.

Posts: 3624

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MarleEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #23 - on: 12.02.2011 at 14:21 [UT] »Quote from chang*ling on 12.02.2011 at 13:36 [UT]:
Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 13:33 [UT]:Something a bit sad that is true: it is relatively normal to have an abortion.
me, myself and I, have never considered this as an option. after all, i do not even have a womb.

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scorpiocap
Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #24 - on: 12.02.2011 at 14:35 [UT] »Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 14:21 [UT]:
Quote from chang*ling on 12.02.2011 at 13:36 [UT]:
Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 13:33 [UT]:Something a bit sad that is true: it is relatively normal to have an abortion.

Posts: 455
Gender:me, myself and I, have never considered this as an option. after all, i do not even have a womb.

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Noyab Nunca

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #25 - on: 12.02.2011 at 14:41 [UT] »Quote from scorpiocap on 12.02.2011 at 14:35 [UT]:
Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 14:21 [UT]:
Quote from chang*ling on 12.02.2011 at 13:36 [UT]:
Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 13:33 [UT]:Something a bit sad that is true: it is relatively normal to have an abortion.
me, myself and I, have never considered this as an option. after all, i do not even have a womb.

In agreement, ScorpioCap...
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MarleEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #26 - on: 12.02.2011 at 15:47 [UT] »scorpiocap, changling is male.

A good page to check something like this is astrotheme.com, in particular here:
http://www.astrotheme.com/celebrites/criteres.php
you can enter particular data to search, like in this case I searched Saturn in V. 318 women in the database
have it. Some examples:
SHAKIRA
Halle BERRY
Mylène FARMERDALIDA
Carmen ELECTRA
Courtney LOVE
Sigourney WEAVER
Rita HAYWORTH
Sarah PALIN
Yaguel DIDIER
Gina-Therese PETTERSSON
Mireille MATHIEU
Nadine de ROTHSCHILD
Yoko ONO
ALEXANDRA (L5)Raquel WELCH
Marlene DIETRICH
Sandrine KIBERLAIN
Katharine HEPBURNSAINTE HILDEGARDE de BINGEN
Helen HUNT
Shirley MacLAINE
Marthe ROBIN
Stevie NICKSALEXANDRA de HANOVRE
Bette DAVIS
Nabila KHASHOGGI
Florence AUBENASNatasha RICHARDSONMarianne FAITHFULL
Annie GIRARDOT
Ilona HALLYDAY
Helen KELLER
Elizabeth MONTGOMERYTHALLIA
Mireille DUMASMarie-France GARAUD
Stéphane AUDRAN
Gene TIERNEYMarianne WILLIAMSON
Vivienne WESTWOOD
Billie HOLIDAYMaria MONTESSORI
Zizi JEANMAIRE
Elisa TOFFOLI
Melissa ETHERIDGE
Toni COLLETTEMIOU-MIOU
Frida BOCCARA
Lucille BALL
K.D. LANG
Zelda FITZGERALD
Mireille NEGRE
Mae WEST
Nana MOUSKOURI
Rebecca ROMIJN
Tatum O'NEALRachel MINER
Barbara HERSHEY
Loretta LYNN
Anne-Marie CARRIERE
Nicole CALFAN
Nadine TRINTIGNANT
REGINE
Kristian ALFONSO
Martha Sunny von BULOW
Lee RADZIWILLSAYAKOAnne LAUVERGEON
Reba McENTIRE
Jill IRELAND
Nicole COURCEL
Françoise de PANAFIEU
Isabelle GIORDANONAYANTARA
Maya DEL MAR
Billie Jean KING
Lena HORNE
Lory DEL SANTO
Mylène JAMPANOICatherine COLONNA
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Noyab Nunca

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #27 - on: 12.02.2011 at 15:54 [UT] »Has anybody see Eyesis? I'm surprised she hasn't joined this discussion.

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vertexMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #28 - on: 12.02.2011 at 18:44 [UT] »The problem with negative outlook on astrological factors is that people do you use them seem to believe thatis the ONLY expression of that energy, and assumes that a native will be that way forever. Astrologers(unfortunately a minority) who do understand that G can be approached constructively are fully aware that
Posts: 5576
Gender:there are also possible negative expressions of G; They are not against acknowledging G in its negative
expression because it helps one understand what one is doing wrong in order to correct it. However,
Astrologers of Stereotypes (both Modern and Neo-Traditional) cannot seem to understand the constructive
positive expressions of G are possible, and very crucial to note because it allows the native understand a way
out those Saturine binds, if they haven't done so already. What is the point of pinpointing negativity, it one
does NOT teach another (or self) a way out? The answer is obvious why those astrologers of stereotypes like topinpoint negativity in others which supposedly more based on reality....power trips. That false sense of power, isthere are greater delusion than that?
I said it many times before...I'll say it again. Mostly negative, pessimistic interpretations of astrological energies
are not necessarily more based on reality. Pessimism (negative outlook/perspective) is just as much as adelusion as optimism. The difference is the delusion of pessimism creates negative self-fulfilling prophesies. On
the other hand, optimism (constructive outlook) is the type of delusion that is useful/practical/valuable because
it helps one move forward..more along the lines with those who do or will eventually express the liberated,
positive expression of G (or any planet). What I refer to delusions are really mental constructs.
And most importantly, pessimism= reality (or negative outlook on astrological energies or life in general) is aluxury for those people, whose life relatively is (has been) not as negative, can afford. REALLY. The knee-jerk
retort against those who choose not to ignore the possible constructive positive expression of astrologicalenergies as "rainbows, butterflies, and unicorns" really makes me yawn. So short sighted.

A book I have describes G in signs...by
1) Prohibition or disdain: in its most difficult form, G means a block opposing the typical qualities of theprevailing sign.
2) Threshold: describes the corresponding fear3) Compulsion: often G on its way to freedom, turns into compulsive behavior, somewhat opposite of its
original bans, more or less lives like it is a compulsion.
4) Liberation: G is its liberated and transform form.

G in house is shown by:
1) Inhibition 2) Compulsion 3) Resolution

I resonate with this approach because both the negative and constructive (liberated) expression of G are
addressed.
It may be important to note, for those who cannot objectively observe people's behavior without being biased
by astrological stereotypes (found in both modern and neo-traditional astrologers): Those with "weak" G in
detriment and fall can possibly express G energies positively (in its liberated form) just like any other G insign. And those with supposedly "strong" G in dignity or exaltation can express G negatively (inhibited,
compulsive expressions of G via sign or house) just as much as G in any other sign.
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IP LoggedWaybreadMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #29 - on: 12.02.2011 at 19:16 [UT] »I seem to have a different take on Saturn. According to Da Way:

1. Any planet can have a positive or negative expression. Which one it will be depends both upon theemotional maturity of the individual and on the planet's placement in the horoscope.
2. Key descriptors for Saturn:Dr. No, what goes around comes around, the big reality-check, ground-truthing, feelings of inadequacy or not
good-enough, frustration, limitation, hard work, frugality.

Posts: 14740
Gender:More positively, the fruits of your labours, perseverance, resourcefulness, patience, persistence. Saturn builds
character or "backbone."
Saturnian motto: "It is what it is."More negatively, Saturn in the chart can show where and how you feel frustrated and inadequate. Saturn rules
fear, so it can show our fears.
Saturn has to do with older people, old age, but it could also be an "old soul" in a young body.
3. Saturn represent experience in its most concrete, realistic, and material form. It is the opposite of
Neptune's illusion/disillusionment or Jupiter's optimistic "Something will turn up."
For example, if you overspend your credit card, Jupiter says, "Don't worry, you'll find the money somewhere"-but Saturn is when your bill shows up and no new money magically materialized.
4. Saturn is one of our best and wisest teachers. If we learn his lessons of patience, getting by on very little,
and deferred gratification, he tends to reward us later in life. (I say this as a "boomer" past my 2nd Saturn
return.)Saturn's lessons are especially good for planning ahead for one's old age. How good is our personal financemanagement? Will we have enough money to retire? Do we look after our health? Have we established solid
relationships with family and friends in our middle years, or are we likely to be lonely and bitter seniors?
Most importantly, have we developed the emotional resources to cope with life's major disappointments? Wecannot imagine that they will never happen. But a well-navigated Saturn can help us cope with them withsome measure of inner strength.
The older I get, the more I think a successful Saturn navigation is just key to having a good life.
Zappo--I think we are growing--or at least changing--throughout life as part of the process of being human.
But are we changing for good, ill, or perhaps in a neutral way?
I think the key to the good part is to try to develop the more positive dimensions of each of the planet. Mars
(the lesser malefic) suggests that we develop our courage and master our aggressive impulses. I think that if
we can do this, astrology really has strengths as a tool for personal insights--and positive growth.
Hey, it beats the alternative.

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #30 - on: 12.02.2011 at 19:52 [UT] »In qabalah, the tarot key ruled by Saturn is called "The World" - and actually symbolizes Cosmic Consciousness.

The Saturn principle is also one of the 3 top spheres on the Tree Of Life, known as the Divine Womb of
Creation, and the principle is the center of the diagram known as the Cube Of Space:http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_tarot_gd.html
Posts: 2454

I think that the the esoteric side of astrology helps dispel those old ideas that Saturn is some sort of devil - asLiz Greene says in her famous book. If we understand how the illusion of separateness is formed, Saturn justbecomes the limiting principle of light. If I had to chose one word to sum up Saturn it would probably be
simply "manifestation" or "justice".
Personally, I think that the outer planet Uranus, Neptune and Pluto tests are a lot harder than Saturn. And I'mstill trying to figure out Chiron. At least with Saturn you can see exactly what is going on.

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Carls mate

Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #31 - on: 12.02.2011 at 20:40 [UT] »"Something a bit sad that is true: it is relatively normal to have an abortion".
What's sad about that?
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MarleEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #32 - on: 12.02.2011 at 21:52 [UT] »Carls mate, when a couple are trying to have a baby, if they have an abortion, they get very sad.

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Noyab Nunca

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #33 - on: 12.02.2011 at 22:00 [UT] »Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 21:52 [UT]:Carls mate, when a couple are trying to have a baby, if they have an abortion, they get very sad.

You mean to tell me that couples "who are trying" to have a baby, seek out abortions? Regardless of the illconceived (no pun meant) logic of this statement, most likely when a woman chooses a termination, it isbecause the pregnancy is unplanned and the responsibility of a child is too much for her at that time. So, yes, I
can see where G comes into play.
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Marle
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #34 - on: 12.02.2011 at 22:45 [UT] »scorpiocap and I are not native speakers of English. I thought she was talking of losing your pregnancy
naturally. At least, when I was talking about abortion here, that's what I was referring to.

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Carls mate

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics

Ex Member« Reply #35 - on: 12.02.2011 at 23:10 [UT] »Oh, you were refering to a miscarriage.

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100thMonkey
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #36 - on: 13.02.2011 at 13:07 [UT] »"Afraid of testing one's........ in case it is found wanting."
Realty/Reality? Time is of the essence. As are reversals and structures being only as good as the foundation
they are built on. Every dog has his day, come Saturnalia and the Lord of Misrule or the Abbot of Unreason. The
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Cornucopia, his weapon is the crecsent shaped sickle to cut down the harvest and castrate his father. The
boundary rider in kid leather and chains, as far as the eye can see. I ask not why but how. And talk to the goat
fish

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SiriusRising

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics

Ex Member« Reply #37 - on: 13.02.2011 at 13:29 [UT] »jA
A recurring theme in my life: failure before success. But it is not just how events automatically play out. The
bridge between failure and success is intentional saturnian resolve.
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100thMonkey
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #38 - on: 13.02.2011 at 13:36 [UT] »Resolve: a question of semantics
resolve (v.) Look up resolve at Dictionary.com

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late 14c., from L. resolvere "to loosen, undo, settle," from re-, intensive prefix, + solvere "loosen" (seesolve). Same sense evolution as in resolution. Related: Resolved; resolving. The noun meaning "determination"is first recorded 1590s.

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scorpiocap

Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #39 - on: 13.02.2011 at 14:16 [UT] »Quote from Marle on 12.02.2011 at 22:45 [UT]:
scorpiocap and I are not native speakers of English. I thought she was talking of losing your pregnancy naturally. At least, when I was
talking about abortion here, that's what I was referring to.

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Gender:yes marle,i didn't mean woman do it on purpose.

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Linda Harris
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #40 - on: 13.02.2011 at 17:03 [UT] »"Why is constant growth always so desirable? There needs to be death and limitation too, otherwise you areleft with suffocating overgrowth. Saturn does that for us - or rather, Saturn shows that to us."Well.......after "birth" and BEFORE death there is a little thing called "LIFE" and Saturn shows us how to
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strengthen ourselves so that we BECOME stronger during our lives and have more mature perspective and self
determination and self discipline in the face of the unpredictable and unpredicted.
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Noyab Nunca

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #41 - on: 13.02.2011 at 17:49 [UT] »Emotional, intellectual and physical growth leads us into maturity.
As I see it, Saturn doesn't limit growth, but rather guides and directs us to it, through all the diversions andadversity we encounter.
I still have a difficult time with the notion that Saturn represents fear. In my mind, we either put our trust in
him and follow his direction or we react in fear to him because growth/change can be scary.
I believe that's where our Moon comes into play.
Fear is an emotion and Saturn is not a planet of emotion. The Moon is. Our moony reactions to his challenges
may be fearful, but I think he shows us that when we confront them and deal with them, we grow. When we are'stuck" or thwarted, Saturn often gets blamed, but I hold the unwillingness of the Moon accountable for that.
Emotional comfort zones are hard to relinquish sometimes.
Most people I've met with Moon-Saturn aspects are solid rocks. Nothing shakes their shit.
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butterflye
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #42 - on: 13.02.2011 at 18:12 [UT] »Quote from Noyab Nunca on 13.02.2011 at 17:49 [UT]:
Emotional, intellectual and physical growth leads us into maturity.
As I see it, Saturn doesn't limit growth, but rather guides and directs us to it, through all the diversions and adversity we encounter.
I still have a difficult time with the notion that Saturn represents fear. In my mind, we either put our trust in him and follow his direction
or we react in fear to him because growth/change can be scary.
I believe that's where our Moon comes into play.
Fear is an emotion and Saturn is not a planet of emotion. The Moon is. Our moony reactions to his challenges may be fearful, but I think
he shows us that when we confront them and deal with them, we grow. When we are 'stuck" or thwarted, Saturn often gets blamed, but I
hold the unwillingness of the Moon accountable for that. Emotional comfort zones are hard to relinquish sometimes.
Most people I've met with Moon-Saturn aspects are solid rocks. Nothing shakes their shit.

Good insights, and goes along the lines with my thread on emotional maturity. I think for me, with my BpG(but also influenced by mCJO) my shit does get shaken up from time to time, but there's a very DEEP levelof groundedness and solidity that lives beneath that, at my core, and at that level also lives a strong confidence
and sense of self-containment and sufficiency. I think my Saturn p Pluto gives me a lot of resilience. I suppose
my attitude is that whatever shit does get shaken up needs to be eliminated anyway, and maybe that deep
inner strength is what allows me to let that process happen.
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Noyab Nunca

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #43 - on: 13.02.2011 at 18:23 [UT] »"I suppose my attitude is that whatever shit does get shaken up needs to be eliminated anyway, and maybethat deep inner strength is what allows me to let that process happen." - Butterflye
Yes. Perhaps a broad generalization on my part to say "their shit doesn't get shaken." You make a good pointthat when a BG person's shit does get shaken, they see the problem it creates and they are equipped toaddress it. The thing about G isn't that it's easy to do, but there is an innate sense that it is the right thing to
do. Thanks, Butterflye.
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vertex

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics

Member« Reply #44 - on: 13.02.2011 at 22:41 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 13.02.2011 at 17:03 [UT]:"Why is constant growth always so desirable? There needs to be death and limitation too, otherwise you are left with suffocating
overgrowth. Saturn does that for us - or rather, Saturn shows that to us."Well.......after "birth" and BEFORE death there is a little thing called "LIFE" and Saturn shows us how to strengthen ourselves so that we

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BECOME stronger during our lives and have more mature perspective and self determination and self discipline in the face of theunpredictable and unpredicted.
LainieLainie, I appreciate what you are saying.
As a request, can you write whom you are quoting from and which post#? I find it hard to read quotes out of
the context it came from (not that you are doing it on purpose).
I request this from everyone who quotes without the quote function.
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100thMonkey

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #45 - on: 13.02.2011 at 22:45 [UT] »The quote comes from Zappo on Page1 « Reply #11

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Carls mate
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #46 - on: 14.02.2011 at 01:47 [UT] »G h. Afraid of testing my desires? Hmm, I suppose I would be if I had any to begin with. Oh wait, I desire to
take over the world! (JK, somewhat). Saturn in 10th.

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scorpiocap

Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #47 - on: 14.02.2011 at 01:49 [UT] »Quote from Carls mate on 14.02.2011 at 01:47 [UT]:

G h. Afraid of testing my desires? Hmm, I suppose I would be if I had any to begin with. Oh wait, I desire to take over the world! (JK,
somewhat). Saturn in 10th.

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G in h 10th house!always work hard even i don't want to.hard job just come to find me.

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Lynne
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #48 - on: 14.02.2011 at 01:56 [UT] »Quote from vertex on 13.02.2011 at 22:41 [UT]:As I request, can you write whom you are quoting from and which post#? I find it hard to read quotes out of the context it came from(not that you are doing it on purpose).
I request this from everyone who quotes without the quote function.

Thanks Vertex, I find it confusing too.
The Quote function is very simple to use.
When you want to respond to a post you click on the 'Quote' button instead of the 'reply' button.
If necessary, you can then delete any part of the other persons post that is not relevant to your reply.
nb
Don't delete any part of this --> [/quote] in the quotee's message, if you do the quote function won't work
properly.
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fireball2000

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #49 - on: 14.02.2011 at 13:47 [UT] »Gf - afraid of questioning my decisions
I suppose closely related to that would be being afraid to test my logic. That's a more f-word, so we will stckwith logic.
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butterflye
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #50 - on: 14.02.2011 at 15:25 [UT] »I think one phrase I'd use with Saturn is:
Afraid of losing ______________.
Saturn can indicate one's fears, and often it's fear of loss, or sense of scarcity. Like for me, my Saturn is in
Taurus, and while on the one hand I can live with very minimal resources, on the other hand fear comes up
when faced with the loss of the most basic of resources. And I've been tested in this too, so that fear cameright up in my face. It's like I can lose, lose, lose A BUNCH and still be relatively OK, but then when it comes tothat most basic of levels of material security, I've had a lot of naked raw fear come up.
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vertexMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #51 - on: 19.02.2011 at 07:31 [UT] »Enough of mellow I, it is time for me start thinking about G again

I have been drained lately....

I thought I would bump this thread again, re-read some posts....
Posts: 5576
Gender:I wanted to share why I resonate with how G is delineated here:
Quote from vertex on 12.02.2011 at 18:44 [UT]:
A book I have describes

G in signs...by

1) Prohibition or disdain: in its most difficult form,

G means a block opposing the typical qualities of the prevailing sign.

2) Threshold: describes the corresponding fear

G on its way to freedom, turns into compulsive behavior, somewhat opposite of its original bans, more or less lives

3) Compulsion: often
like it is a compulsion.
4) Liberation:

G is its liberated and transform form.

G in house is shown by:
1) Inhibition 2) Compulsion 3) Resolution

Gd1) PROHIBITION OR DISDAIN OF: Deep feelings, sentimentality, family, romanticism, a feeling of being rooted
in the homeland.
2)THRESHOLD: Fear of the depths of feelings of emotional attachments. Fear of being "eaten up" by thefeminine element.
3)COMPULSION: Feeling oneself at the mercy of heavy, negative feelings and depressive moods
4) LIBERATION: Taking one's own feelings seriously, healthy self-control without frustrating suppression. Inner
peace, feeling of emotional safety and security without fear of dependency

G in the 7th house (OBJECTIVE: Trust in a responsible mature relationship)
1) INHIBITION: Lacking in contact, reserved and cautious in relationships for fear of closeness or being hurt.
Strong mistrust in the other person. As a result, avoids relationships. Can't believe he or she is loved on own
account. Searches for guarantee or proof of love. Waits long time for desired person, and quickly backs down if
the tide should actually turn in his or her favor.
2) COMPULSION: Breaks down personal reserve and plays Don Juan. At the same time, always in control,
remains cold on the inside, and opens up to short encounters in which no true closeness is created.
3) RESOLUTION: Sees through own avoidance strategy that led to earlier disappointments. Carefully and slowly
grows into a relationship and continually gains deeper confidence in it. Overcomes old fears and develops
steadfastness. Is responsible, caring, faithful, reliable, and patient.
I totally resonate with this....and how.
It shows what I am doing wrong and how it can be better
expressed. It is useful, practical way of looking at Saturn. In real life, different people can be expressing
different aspects of placement at different points in their life. So it is a realistic approach of looking at Saturn.
Note: G in the 7th house, there is no mention of being attracted to old men. No stereotypes!
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*Estrella12*
Ex Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #52 - on: 19.02.2011 at 10:43 [UT] »Using Pearl Diver's simple formulation, with bG
I am afraid of testing my foundations in case it is found wanting
It is a good summary of the starting point of my Saturnian lessons. After my Saturn return (marked bydepression, harsh realisations, setting new tanglibe goals and working hard to achieve them) I felt like I wasborn again. Then the next crisis with enourmous rewards was when trSatrun was conj. my natal Mars, squareing
nSaturn.
I have learnt to use Saturnian energy quite well by now - my current problems are more related to Neptune
Saturn is in my 12th house, squaring Mars and opposing Neptune
Anyway, I did the exercise that vertex suggested and it really works for me!!
Prohibition or disdain of materialism, monotony, earthiness, sensuality, fecundity
Threshold: fear of being trapped by material circumstances, money concerns, "mother nature"
Compulsion: worry about lack of finances, lack of stability and foundations, inproductiviy, infertility
Liberation: concentration on the material foundations of life, creating material security for my family (oforigin and possible future family), taking care of the basics, developing productive and comfortable routines,
learning to appreciate the simple physical pleasures of life
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MOIRASQUAREDEx Member

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #53 - on: 20.02.2011 at 06:03 [UT] »Noyab, your arrow hits the mark as usual! You wrote:
Most people I've met with Moon-Saturn aspects are solid rocks. Nothing shakes their shit.
The only trouble with this is when you're in an emotional Saturnian vice-grip with the person you like least in
the whole universe! My ex and I will never get out of our trenches. I was just there today, with the aspectometer .... nope. We're still both getting nowhere!
Saturn in 2nd/Cap = courage. Fortitude in the frontier of Lost.
Mine squares the Moon. His conjuncts the Moon. I know he won, taciturn son of a father (who trained himwell), in the short run and he knows I win in the long run.
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IP Loggeda chair
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #54 - on: 20.02.2011 at 16:27 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 12.02.2011 at 05:11 [UT]:Pearl Diver, I like your sentence and I'm trying to put Pisces in there.
Afraid of testing one's vulnerability in case it's found wanting....no, that doesn't really work. Maybe faith? Need more time to think.

As a lA, I think Pisces would be more about faith than vulnerability.
What about devotion or ideal self? That's in the same realm as faith.
I'm trying to do Aquarius. Afraid of testing one's ideas in case they are found wanting? That might work. I'm
not afraid to speak my ideas but I'm afraid to actually influence changing anything where others might object
to the changes. I would say that my 7H G has evolved on this forum as I've learned to be more critical of myown ideas. Sometimes my criticism is of others as well. I criticize people for being close-minded orpresumptuous.
I can relate to what Vertex just said about 7H G because I am very critical. Lately I've been realizing that I
probably won't feel what I once felt again unless I ease the weight of my ideals. The feeling I felt would beemotional confidence (confide-ence). Saturn is trine my moon. It's also inconjunct mercury, the ruler of mymoon.
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Noyab Nunca

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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #55 - on: 20.02.2011 at 16:42 [UT] »I'm curious to know why so many people fear/dislike/loathe G so much?

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butterflye

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics

Ex Member« Reply #56 - on: 20.02.2011 at 16:45 [UT] »I don't dislike Saturn at all, in fact I *respect* it.
I wonder if my BpG natal aspect makes it easier for me
to embrace Saturn. Of course I also have Saturn in a T-square, and in my 1st house, so it's not like it's been
so easy for me or anything. Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment!
This past summer when transiting Saturn crossed my Moon, I did not have such a hard time of it. A couple oftimes it was challenging for me, but nothing too terrible. Mostly it just deepened and sobered me up, maybe
aided in more maturity on the emotional level. Generally the influence was rather calming. Peaceful.
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vertexMember

Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #57 - on: 20.02.2011 at 21:14 [UT] »Quote from Noyab Nunca on 20.02.2011 at 16:42 [UT]:
I'm curious to know why so many people fear/dislike/loathe

Posts: 5576
Gender:Dude, you sound like Rainman, now
you last posted here)

G so much?

Stop repeating something that wasn't said here (well, at least since

Just because some people don't have the ego or aren't insecure enough to admit that G can represent some of
their fears, doesn't mean they fear, dislike, loathe Saturn itself.
Yo! I don't fear Saturn because if I did, I would be shitting bricks that G is less than a degree away from myMC.

What I typed above is like a G lesson plan. Yes, G energy can represent prohibitions/fears, but also
COMPULSION (when G goes into overdrive), and then the liberated form. I capitalized compulsion because thisis often forgotten.
As G ditsy as I usually sound, don't you think I have some sort of clue who is actually expressing a liberated orbalanced form of G?? Here is a clue: those that don't need to constantly brag about how strong their G is,
and/or those don't have the need to point out to people "look at you with your weak Saturn, you will nevermake it with because of your strong non-saturnine energy (F. I, J etc)" or "if you have strong FI thatmust mean you don't have a grip on reality". Those that do such things probably have mostly "mastered" theinhibition/prohibition form of G of their sign (sometimes house), but are in compulsion mode of G in of its
sign (or house) Note well: I put mastered in quotes because they are overcompensating for their fears which
they have not truly conquered......so is it mastery?? Example: Someone with G in f, who is quick to point out
to others...."look at you, you will never make it because you are not G enough (which they are really referring
to are their own f qualities), which *I* "mastered" so well" That person has a far from liberated G, but still incompulsion mode. Fears are still there, but they are overcompensating for them.
exampleG in f
PROHIBITION OR DISDAIN OF: Domesticity, flexibility, precision
THRESHOLD: Fear of tests. Fear of being useless, maladjusted, or inappropriate.
COMPULSION: Pedantry, fault-finding that criticizes everything, exaggerated organization, obtrusive
perfectionism.
LIBERATION: Awareness of social responsibility, sensible love of order, stable health. Synthesis of mind-body.
There are many who have worked on their G fears/prohibitions. A subset of that group, there are those whohave the need to put others down for it: the usual criticisms, too weak G, or too strong FI. I am saying
those people shouldn't be too quick to think and be proud they have mastered G lessons; chances are (actually
I haven't seen where it hasn't been the case) they are still in compulsion mode of G and have not truly
overcome their fears represented by G.
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scorpiocap
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Re: Saturn tests - a question of semantics« Reply #58 - on: 21.02.2011 at 00:45 [UT] »well G in h 10th house,i am not able to do what i like,too afraid of failure.as long as i'm working i feelstressful,don't like any test.admire authority of the area i 'm interested,but afraid of them.but everytime i don't
escape G's lesson,try hard,i would do really well.
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