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Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer? (Read 2571 times)

vertexMemberWhy is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« on: 19.06.2008 at 02:10 [UT+1] »Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer? What characteristics of Cancer makes it exalt Jupiter?

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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #1 - on: 19.06.2008 at 04:53 [UT+1] »Because much like visa they can't leave home without it?

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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #2 - on: 19.06.2008 at 05:49 [UT+1] »Cancer provides a protective environment for growth, which suits Jupiter which is about growth. There may
well be other reasons but that is how I've seen it

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locustEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #3 - on: 19.06.2008 at 11:42 [UT+1] »Jupiter is the great benefic, cancer is a cardinal (movable sign) and its real characteristics are similar to those
asscociated with the Chariot, the VII tarot card, signifying Conquest, Honor, Victory, Energy, Egocentrism, Self
confidence,
Willpower,Self assertion, Hard control, Discipline, Inflexibility,Success, Wealth, Recognition, Impulsivity (andmoodiness),Command,Bravery,Pride. it seems quite the opposite to the traits commonly associated with
Cancer (meek, oversensitive, peaceful, family-oriented) but I think Cancer can be very active and warrior-like.
Notice the meanings of the Chariot have a lot to do with Jupiter.
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #4 - on: 19.06.2008 at 12:51 [UT+1] »Hi locust, I think it would be better if you stayed with astrology rather than the tarot. Willpower is more sun
mars, discipline is Saturn not Jupiter, hard control is saturn rather than jupiter, self assertion is sun/mars
rather than jupiter, inflexibility is fixed sign, impulsivity is more martian though perhaps jupiter may be
involved, moodiness is moon cancer, bravery more mars, pride more leo/sun. But maybe that's just my
opinion however I do like to see the essential meaning of the planets and signs adhered to rather thanloosely applied to anything.
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #5 - on: 19.06.2008 at 13:35 [UT+1] »Chariot is principles of change movement combinations of stillness-activity. The crab just sits on the head of
the chariot rider. It's not the whole card. That card has taurus, leo scorpio and aquarius. You need a bettertarot book.
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Ed Falis
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #6 - on: 19.06.2008 at 14:05 [UT+1] »The following link contains some very insightful speculation about the system behind the exaltations, by a very
bright young astrologer: http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?
fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=60399281&groupID=100266570&adTopicID=30&Mytoken=67BF8BD6-67F1-4E8D9B8DD92886E7D0A16246009

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Spiral 28

Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #7 - on: 19.06.2008 at 14:36 [UT+1] »My Jupiter in Cancer in the 12th ruled by Moon in Taurus conjunct Venus in the 11th that are sextile my Cancer
ascendant has always been my best opportunity to evolve. Paying close attention to the studies on Jupiter inCancer, what has struck me as the most important view is that Cancer is our home in more than just the 4th
sign = 4th house connection.
Jupiter in Cancer can give an enlarged view of what our " home " is, as the entire world, as Mother Earth.
Jupiter expands the thinking, and gives a philosophy of freedom in that area where it resides at birth. Our
Posts: 3639
Gender:feeling of protecting and nurturing others can be as wide as the world is wide. The "lucky" connotation for
Jupiter comes from the ability to let go and free flow with the faith and belief you will be guided to where you
are meant to travel.
An interconnection to Jupiter brings to mind the feeling of such huge wide vistas ahead, open territory readyfor exploration. Both Jupiter in Cancer and Jupiter in the 12th can bring to others we meet a more optimistic
help when people are faced with fear and uncertainty of what is ahead. I think we are born with thisplacement because others will be coming to us who cannot face the dark by themselves, and we have theability to show them some new paths.
We are very maternal and natural rescuers and can't stand to see others pushed into a corner.
Jupiter in Cancer has an unlimited field to roam in life. It takes away the boundaries and restrictions which
limit others. We'll "jump the gate without a care and not look back again" if anyone makes the mistake that
our spirits can be made smaller.

Our home is the entire Earth and our family is all the people upon it.

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Vagabundo
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #8 - on: 19.06.2008 at 15:26 [UT+1] »Jupiter, the ruler of Sagittarius(represented by Centaurus)when placed in Cancer(human race)ruled by theMoon,is exalted(the strongest influence) and thus,it is in human nature(Cancer) to always want more(Jupiter)
i.e.reach farther and farther(Jupiter). In addition,every person(Cancer)has a certain aggressiveness within
i.e.animal instinct(Centaurus-half man,half horse)which leads us to Darwin's Evolution Theory.
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Matrika Matters

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #9 - on: 19.06.2008 at 15:53 [UT+1] »Thank you for that link Ed. Very bright indeed!

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Spiral 28
Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #10 - on: 19.06.2008 at 16:06 [UT+1] »Vagabundo, must be why in Chinese Astrology, out of four possible animals which make up my character, 3
are Horses. The fourth is the gentle curious Rabbit.

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Ms. Miranda

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #11 - on: 19.06.2008 at 17:42 [UT+1] »So is it that there is an inherent "safety net" emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and/or physically in one's
life from birth for that d energy to do F-ish things like explore, expand, and leap forward in life? Am I
understanding this? Kind of like being able to go into the fray of life and have some sort of protective shieldaroudn oneself?

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IP LoggedEddy Bharani
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #12 - on: 19.06.2008 at 18:31 [UT+1] »Read Ptolemy, http://www.geocities.com/astrologysources/classicalgreece/tetrabiblos/index.htm
Almost everything that was ever written about signs is based upon or is derived from his Tetrabiblos, all credits
go to him. Modern astrology psychologised everythin, but the roots still lie in the antique Graeco-Roman world.
The Babylonians although already had invented the exaltations in about the 6th century BC, and even before
they, just for ease of calculations of planetary positions, divided the signs into equal sectors of 30° each.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/603245?&Search=yes&term=exaltations&term=trine&term=dodekatemoria&list=hide&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Dexal
Unfortunately I think this magnificent scientific site can only be read at university libraries or other places where
they are connected to jstor
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IXFJSag

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #13 - on: 19.06.2008 at 19:07 [UT+1] »The Ptolemy site is accessible and it's a good read. Thanks so much for the link.

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IP LoggedBlue Hills
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #14 - on: 19.06.2008 at 19:45 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 19.06.2008 at 12:51 [UT+1]:
Hi locust,.... Willpower is more sun mars... .

Actually, the major arcana of tarot corresponds to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, which in turncorrespond to the 12 signs of the Zodiac and the 10 "planets" (Sun, Moon, Pluto being termed planets).
When locust said that Cancer is associated with will power, the correct term, according the esoteric astrology of
Qabalah is "Receptivity/Will". The idea here is that the power that we think comes from our own personality isreally divine, and comes down to us from the starry canopy shown in tarot's key #7, The Chariot.
The Charioteer is the Inner Self, the sphinxes are the senses and the invisible reins are the mind. Like the crab's
shell, the chariot is the body. Everything in the picture represents enclosure and protection - the chariot, thearmor of the driver, the castles in the background. The river flowing through the picture is the universal
subconsciousness which we have access to through our own subconscious minds.
(Jupiter to follow)

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chariot.jpg (attachment deleted)
IP LoggedBlue Hills

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #15 - on: 19.06.2008 at 20:02 [UT+1] »In tarot, Jupiter is represented by key #10, the Wheel Of Fortune. The occult principle here is "grasp" orunderstanding of cosmic laws; it is an understanding cause and effect, note, it is not the actual effect, which is
karma, and represented by Saturn, but the understanding of the laws of nature.
In the Hebrew alphabet, every letter is a number and a word. The 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet , Kaph,(Greek kappa) meaning "closed hand", as opposed to letter #9, Yod, which means "open hand" and also finger,
and corresponds to The Hermit key, Virgo.
When we understand or "grasp" the principles of cosmic law, our actions will be in harmony with them, and thisalways leads to expansion and good luck. Jupter is exalted in Cancer, because the highest expression of this"grasp" of cosmic laws is the recognition that we are really all "chariots" for the divine power, receptive to thedivine will.

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wheeloffortune_001.jpg (attachment deleted)
IP Loggedpaneagle
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #16 - on: 19.06.2008 at 21:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 19.06.2008 at 14:05 [UT+1]:
The following link contains some very insightful speculation about the system behind the exaltations, by a very bright young astrologer:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=60399281&groupID=100266570&adTopicID=30&Mytoken=67BF8BD6-67F1-4E8D-9B8DD92886E7D0A16246009

thanks for this
i listed on the thread for the definitions of harmonics
to add to the growing informationand the dynamic of sol 60th harmonic.
sol jupiter is in cancer this week. how perfect.
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #17 - on: 19.06.2008 at 23:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 19.06.2008 at 14:05 [UT+1]:
The following link contains some very insightful speculation about the system behind the exaltations, by a very bright young astrologer:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=60399281&groupID=100266570&adTopicID=30&Mytoken=67BF8BD6-67F1-4E8D-9B8DD92886E7D0A16246009

Great stuff ed!!! Music of the spheres just got a little bit clearer in my mind.
Would do you me favor Ed and give him my thanks for me?
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IP LoggedBlue Hills
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #18 - on: 20.06.2008 at 04:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 19.06.2008 at 14:05 [UT+1]:
The following link contains some very insightful speculation about the system behind the exaltations, by a very bright young astrologer:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=60399281&groupID=100266570&adTopicID=30&Mytoken=67BF8BD6-67F1-4E8D-9B8DD92886E7D0A16246009

Patrick Walker's discovery/analysis does seem to have finally given us a mathematical reason for the exaltations.
I must say that I'm finding it a bit geeky to understand, but I am still working on it!
I think it is a great example of the more Aquarian type of astrology, whereas the reasons above about family,
tarot, philosophical values etc given above would be more Piscean/Neptunian. The beautiful thing is, both
systems are reaching the same conclusions, but via different paths.
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Charlie Charles 2nd

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #19 - on: 20.06.2008 at 10:43 [UT+1] »Getting into the psychology of this suggests it is related to a persons aspirations (F) for the family (4th) a
useful thing if your going down the precarious child-rearing road.............
trying to tighten up the anomalies of the Thema Mundi seems a virgoan urge methinks
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Ed Falis
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #20 - on: 20.06.2008 at 17:13 [UT+1] »Quote:
trying to tighten up the anomalies of the Thema Mundi seems a virgoan urge methinks

It seemed a competent effort to me - the anomalies are few, and the scheme he described is consistent withthe remainder of the traditional rulerships. Much better than "well Jupiter symbolizes the yah-de-dah, andCancer the yo-de-ho, so it makes sense to me that ....", which says nothing general about exaltations and why
they may have been assigned as they were.
Didn't I say something about believing that astrology is ruled by Mercury in the Aq/Pi thread?
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Ed Falis

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #21 - on: 20.06.2008 at 17:16 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 19.06.2008 at 05:49 [UT+1]:
Cancer provides a protective environment for growth, which suits Jupiter which is about growth. There may well be other reasons but thatis how I've seen it

You're veering dangerously close to how Schmidt says the moon supports jupiter, as described in "zoidsoft"scomment to the thread I posted.
Good to see you back, by the way.

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AstroSun*
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #22 - on: 20.06.2008 at 17:47 [UT+1] »Quote from vertex on 19.06.2008 at 02:10 [UT+1]:
Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer? What characteristics of Cancer makes it exalt Jupiter?

A loving environment for teaching/knowledge/spirituality to be expressed.
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Charlie Charles 2nd

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #23 - on: 20.06.2008 at 18:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 20.06.2008 at 17:13 [UT+1]:
Quote:
trying to tighten up the anomalies of the Thema Mundi seems a virgoan urge methinks

It seemed a competent effort to me - the anomalies are few, and the scheme he described is consistent with the remainder of the
traditional rulerships. Much better than "well Jupiter symbolizes the yah-de-dah, and Cancer the yo-de-ho, so it makes sense to me that....", which says nothing general about exaltations and why they may have been assigned as they were.
Didn't I say something about believing that astrology is ruled by Mercury in the Aq/Pi thread?

Very competent - but as someone said about schmidt's comment later on in the thread always something thatfits 'uneasily' like F in d you could argue.
i like the approach of the young kepler people taking the fundamentals/dogma apartas to mer/vir and the astro calling lets not get into greene's chart again
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Ed Falis
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #24 - on: 20.06.2008 at 18:49 [UT+1] »Never saw Greene's chart - doesn't she hold it private?

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Charlie Charles 2nd

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #25 - on: 20.06.2008 at 19:18 [UT+1] »astrotheme have made it less private

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Ed Falis
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #26 - on: 20.06.2008 at 19:27 [UT+1] »I'll just respect the wishes of the owner.

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mariebrizard

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #27 - on: 20.06.2008 at 19:53 [UT+1] »Quote:
Jupiter, the ruler of Sagittarius(represented by Centaurus)when placed in Cancer(human race)ruled by the Moon,is exalted(the strongest
influence) and thus,

vagabundo,
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Gender:nice, clear explanation, my jupiter is VERY prominent in the chart i believe, this makes it easier to understand,thanksBack to top

IP LoggedEddy Bharani
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #28 - on: 20.06.2008 at 20:27 [UT+1] »Mr. Walkers' analysis is very good and most of it can be traced to Ptolemy. In book I and especially in theparagraphs 4-7, 10-13 and 17-19 (in 19 you can find the reasoning of the exaltations) he systemizes the signs
and planets and explains malefic and benefic nature and the connection with the hard and soft aspects. The
classic Greeks were fond of systematizing, so they did with the cosmos, which doesn't only mean 'order' but
also is related to 'beauty', hence 'cosmetics'. So Ptolemy did systematize but does it mean that it should bereal? I don't think so actually. In book I 19 he states that "Then Jupiter, which produces the fecund north winds,reaches farthest north in Cancer and brings his own power to fullness; they therefore made this sign his
exaltation and Capricorn his depression." For a Greek living in 2nd century AD Alexandria, Northern-Egypt
without airconditioning northern winds coming from the mediterranean sea are much to prefer than thesouthern desert winds. At my place in the Netherlands, northern winds are less pleasant, not really humid andsometimes dry but defenitely mostly cold so in the northern countries Saturn should be exalted in Cancer forbook mentions I 4 "It is Saturn's quality chiefly to cool and, moderately, to dry, probably because he is furthest
removed both from the sun's heat and the moist exhalations about the earth.", and this fits more to northern
climates. In Sub Sahara West Africa the Harmattan is a desert wind hot according to some hot to others but
always dry and nasty, so over there Mars and Saturn may compete for rulership. I also think, like mostastrologers do now, the whole malefic-benific division is not real.
By the way, note that Ptolemy didn't divide the signs in the four elements but the elements have their place
according to natural climatic order in every quadrant (spring, summer, autumn, winter) each then he divides
them in what we now know as cardinal fixed and mutable,
book I 10,11. The cutting of the elements and dividing them 120° apart are probably of later date.
Ptolemy's explanation is Greco/Mediterrano-centric and he knows it; book I 10 "The region to the south ishottest because of the fiery heat of the sun's passages through mid-heaven and because these passages, on
account of the inclination of our inhabited world, diverge more to the south;..." Now the whole world is known I
think the concept of climatological explanation is untenable, for in Australia the signs should be reversed orbook I 19 "The so-called exaltations of the planets have the following explanation. Since the sun, when he is inAries, is making his transition to the northern and higher semicircle, and in Libra is passing into the southern
and lower One, they have fittingly assigned Aries to him as his exaltation, since there the length of the day andthe heating power of his nature begin to increase, and Libra as his depression for the opposite reasons." would
seem very strange. And what about the countries at the equator, since there it's usually warm and moist.
Since our rulerships and exaltations are based upon Ptolemy, it has their roots in the climatologicalsystematization. No matter how we psychologize and symbolize it, we still would use the same basis which I
think is wrong.
But what about the Babylonians who had the exaltations in 679 BC already? I think too that they had them
related to the cardinal signs. The Babylonians used a luni-solar calendar with intercalary months, like the Jewish
calendar still does. The Babylonian zodiac was sidereal but precession wasn't discovered yet so it must havebeen mingled with climatological or equinoctical concepts. The exaltation of the sun in Ariës or spring equinox
seems logic, so does the moon in Taurus for a good second place next to the sun. In "From the omens ofBabylon: astrology and ancient Mesopotamia" by Michael Baigent Venus is mentioned as the most important
object after Sun and Moon and even formed a trinity. Venus as the brightest of the five visible planets would
get Pisces, in this position Venus would be the “morning star”. Saturn may already have been known as the “oldsun” and got the opposite position of the suns’, the other cardinal signs were important too so they assigned
them to Jupiter and Mars.
The Greeks also used exact points of exaltations within the signs, the point of exaltation of the moon being at
3° Taurus, for example. These exact Greek points of exaltations have an interesing point for they all are pluralsof 12° à 13° apart of eachother, so it may be possible that elements of the lunar zodiac(27/28 constellations ofca.13° each) were processed in the exaltations. However the lunar zodiac hasn't played a big role in Greek
astrology in contrary to Indian and Chinese astrology.
Even other systems were thought out http://cura.free.fr/decem/10kengil.html
Usually the rulership of planets/gods was over (lunar) months-periods rather than over geometrical signs. So
many thoughts have existed and were invented, the fact that Ptolemy’s version doesn’t make it’s the true one. I
think all rulerships, exaltations or element attributions to signs are artificial. I only look at the equinox points
as reference for planetary positions in natal charts, synastry and transits, and view them as a sort of nodes.
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Ed Falis

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #29 - on: 20.06.2008 at 20:39 [UT+1] »Thanks for the further explorations, Eddy. You're a very bright young man, too. (assuming your age here).

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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #30 - on: 20.06.2008 at 20:58 [UT+1] »Ed - Thank you very much for having given that link; a tremendous help.
Eddy - Thanks very much for your illuminating post.
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Gene Ray

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #31 - on: 20.06.2008 at 21:28 [UT+1] »Hello all
At one time except for the Sun and Moon the planets were exalted in one of the signs it was square to and in
Posts: 3329
Gender:fall to the other sign it was square too. Mars exalted in Capricorn and in fall in Cancer is an example. Jupiter inCancer does not fit this dilscription.
The square relationship seems to express the idea in exaltation as overcoming difficulties and in the fall as
being overwhelmed.
There are so many versions of which sign a planet finds strenght and/or weakness that you can find one thatfits your inclination whatever that is.
The Sun is exalted by its trine relationship to Aries and in fall by its sextile relationship with Libra?
The Moon is exalted by its sextile relationship to Taurus and is in fall by its trine relationship with Scorpio?
I would say the Moon is exalted in Libra and in fall in Aries and the Sun is exalted in Taurus and in fall in
Scorpio.....but I am not really sure about this, however it does fit the square pattern.
Gene Ray

Gene Ray
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #32 - on: 20.06.2008 at 21:34 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 20.06.2008 at 21:28 [UT+1]:
Hello all
At one time except for the Sun and Moon the planets were exalted in one of the signs it was square to and in fall to the other sign it was
square too. ...

Reference?
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Hermes Tea

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #33 - on: 20.06.2008 at 21:56 [UT+1] »Eddy,
Quote:
Quote:
Mr. Walkers' analysis is very good and most of it can be traced to Ptolemy.

Ptolemy's influence upon western astrology is undeniable but, what Mr Walker is referring to comes mainly from
Vettius Valens who was a working and well travelled astrologer of the time. He sought to collect all the best (inhis eyes) of the astrological techniques and set them down in his Anthology, published by Project Hindsight.
Ptolemy seemed to just record the astrology that was practiced, or when he dissagreed, as with the Egyptian
boundary rulers, he suggested his own. On the whole Ptolemy is unreliable due to the fact that he did notunderstand the astrology of the era very well, he ad-lib'd often. One major example would be the Egytian
Hermetic Lots where he either never encountered them in a working astrologer, failed to understand the systemof lots, or just thought they were not worth a mention. He only gives one example of the calculation of the lotof fortune, using the diurnal formula in a nocturnal chart - this caused a couple of thousand years of
misunderstanding.
Quote:
Quote:
In book I and especially in the paragraphs 4-7, 10-13 and 17-19 (in 19 you can find the reasoning of the exaltations) he systemizes thesigns and planets and explains malefic and benefic nature and the connection with the hard and soft aspects.

Which Tetrabiblos are you talking about?
The exaltations will most likely remain a mystery, until conclusive proof appears, if ever, there will always
remain several possibilities. For instance, there was an important year 25,920 BC (approx) where some claimed
the conclusion of the building of the temple of Nabu, this was the defining year for the stars to hold their mostreverent positions. The Chaldeans called this place, "the place of secret revelation" exaltation is a Greek word,
the Chaldean word for what we call the exaltation is 'qaqqar nisirti.’
I have also put forward a theory that each planets highest northern latitude is the modern moving exaltation
degree which I based upon the Chaldean system of qaqqar nisirti. The fixed exaltation degrees will likely remain
obscure, at least until another tomb is found with papyri explaining the concepts from that cultures point ofview.
Quote:
Quote:
In book I 19 he states that "Then Jupiter, which produces the fecund north winds, reaches farthest north in Cancer and brings his own
power to fullness; they therefore made this sign his exaltation and Capricorn his depression."

This is a prime example of Ptolemy's misunderstanding of what later became known as temperament. Prior tothis the elements did not consist of Choleric, Melancholic, Sanguine and Phlegmatic, they were associated withthe four winds. Fire was the East wind, Earth was the South wind, Air was the West wind and Water was thenorth wind. The planets had natures such as Jupiter being warm and moist (<Cancer attributes) but any
association with a planet and a wind is a modern faux par.
Quote:
Quote:
Ptolemy's explanation is Greco/Mediterrano-centric and he knows it;

What is this supposed to mean? This flippancy shows you are about to deviate into personal subjectivity andinsults.
What a shame, conversation ended.
-HT
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Gene Ray
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #34 - on: 20.06.2008 at 22:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 20.06.2008 at 21:34 [UT+1]:
Quote from Gene Ray on 20.06.2008 at 21:28 [UT+1]:
Hello all
At one time except for the Sun and Moon the planets were exalted in one of the signs it was square to and in fall to the

Posts: 3329
Gender:other sign it was square too. ...

Reference?

Hello Ed
Can't give you one. It was something I noticed years ago when I tried to understand the basis for strength or
weakness of planet in a sign. I am not a note taker and the particulars (sources) I do not remember, and I feelthat (like I have said before here) that it is the river that is important, not who discovered it.
Best wishes
Gene
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The Wizard's Eye

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #35 - on: 20.06.2008 at 22:06 [UT+1] »For a planet to be exalted in one sign it has to be equally fallen in the opposite. For instance Jupiter is in very
good spirits in Leo but is no less happy in Aquarius. Jupiter is very happy in Cancer but extremely limited in
Capricorn. Reasons for Jupiter's exaltation in Cancer could be: expansion and faith through kindness, the homeand country is seen through a wider, foreign perspective, both Jupiter and Cancer are very protective in natureand thus mesh well.
If I remember correctly, Jupiter has the most Moons of any planet, worth considering when in Cancer, the sign
ruled by the Moon or more generally; satellites of all planets. Jupiter thus perfectly illustrates the reflective
nature of Cancer through its abundant Moons.
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Lady Christine
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #36 - on: 20.06.2008 at 23:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 19.06.2008 at 14:05 [UT+1]:
The following link contains some very insightful speculation about the system behind the exaltations, by a very bright young astrologer:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=60399281&groupID=100266570&adTopicID=30&Mytoken=67BF8BD6-67F1-4E8D-9B8DD92886E7D0A16246009

Hi Ed!
I have done searches before on Myspace using "astrology" as a common interest, and nothing great came up.
How did you find him? He is astoundingly bright and insightful! Thank you for posting that link! I
thoroughly enjoyed reading that.
Christine
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Lady Christine

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #37 - on: 20.06.2008 at 23:39 [UT+1] »Many times at conventions or seminars (I've read even in books, ie. Llwellyn), I hear astrologers argue that
Neptune should be exalted in Cancer and in it's fall in Capricorn. Then putting Jupiter exalted in Leo and in
it's fall in Aquarius (some astrologers reverse this as well!).
There was even some mention of this on the Myspace thread. Perhaps Moses? Anyone have any thoughts on
this?
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GoUtopians
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #38 - on: 21.06.2008 at 02:17 [UT+1] »That Thema Mundi stuff looks very well-argued, but personally the whole esoteric/old school approach thattends to involve that sort of stuff isn't really my cup of tea in general. I prefer a more modern, stripped down
approach to astrology. This opinion is not meant to be combative toward the other posters in this thread, but
merely to set context for a alternative viewpoint to the original poster's question. (although, so no one gets the
mistaken the impression that I am concealing bias, I will admit that the ancient stuff and old arcane theory
tends to put me right to sleep).
That said, I would account for Jupiter being considered exalted in Cancer is simply that they are compatible incrucial ways. Cancer is supportive by nature, and Jupiter is a function of support. Also, Jupiter without any
mitigating factors will always go for more (including after it has become "too much of a good thing"), andCancer, in and of itself, will encourage any of that expansion that results in security or in the kind of happinessthat is tied to either security or the enclosed bliss that has the "womb" qualities associated with Cancer; while,in contrast, Capricorn is not quite so immediately friendly to Jupiter in the sense that it will limit expansions tohighly controlled moments during which the function of expansion is deemed useful to whatever goal or motive
has been surehandedly chosen ... all of this is partially explained by the fact that Cancer sees what it wants tosee, whereas Capricorn assiduously seeks realistic understanding action even at the cost of satisfying emotion.
Furthermore, I believe that the reason a planet that is exalted in one sign is in fall in another sign (such as
Jupiter in Capricorn) has no mystical underpinnings. It merely happens because opposing signs have themost... well, opposite... natures simply due to the mathematical relationship they have to each other (which
includes them being further apart from each other than from any other part of the "sky"). Cancer is one part of
the natural cycle, Capricorn is the part that is all the way on the other end of that cycle (which bears itself out
in the sheer contrast between, say, the beginning of summer and the beginning of winter, represented
respectively by d and j in either order depending on where you live). The above Jupiter example illustrates
how this contrast plays out in astrological interpretation.
I suppose I'll add another example, to add a bit of perspective. Saturn is not particularly attuned to Aries OR
Libra, which is why it has exaltation/fall in that sign pair, not dignity/debilitation (dignity/debilitation indicatesgenuine affinity vs. incompatibility; exaltation/fall merely indicates qualities that just happen to help vs. ones ofan opposing nature that will thus naturally just happen to hinder... I hope that makes sense). So, in Libra we
don't find Saturn feeling like it is almost tailored to the sign like it is to Capricorn... in Aries, you aren't making
Saturn go against the very grain of its nature like it would be in Cancer. It's just that Libra waits for certain
things to happen, which helps Saturn be Saturn because it is the nature of Saturn to wait and to think first;
whereas, Aries tends not to wait, which, being the opposite trait of the Libra quality of deliberation, is not
helpful to Saturn's desire to plan first.
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The Wizard's Eye

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #39 - on: 21.06.2008 at 07:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Lady Christine on 20.06.2008 at 23:39 [UT+1]:
Many times at conventions or seminars (I've read even in books, ie. Llwellyn), I hear astrologers argue that Neptune should be exalted inCancer and in it's fall in Capricorn. Then putting Jupiter exalted in Leo and in it's fall in Aquarius (some astrologers reverse this as well!).
There was even some mention of this on the Myspace thread. Perhaps Moses? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I've heard of Neptune supposedly being exalted in Leo as well. Personally I believe Neptune is exalted in Geminiand fallen in Sagittarius. Both Mercury and Gemini are associated with the magician which blends well withmystical, elusive Neptune, while to find redemption in universal fraternity is an inspiring goal, Neptune washingaway the petty quarrels of men. In contrast Neptune fogs clear minded Sagittarian philosophy, Sagittarian laws
and codes are at odds with Neptune's desire to wash away all mental barriers between people. in mythology,
Zeus/Jupiter was the brother of Hades and often responded to his demands, while Neptune/Poseidon was the
only brother Pluto ever feared, thus this is another sign that Neptune in Sagittarius is a contradiction in terms.
Neptune is often there to wash away the harsh extremism of Pluto but in Sagittarius Neptune has to bow togive Pluto more weight than it would prefer.
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #40 - on: 21.06.2008 at 09:55 [UT+1] »Thanks Ed, Pamela. Ed, you must have more than 24 hours in a day to check and find all these info on otherfora while this forum already can keep me occupied. I had my first Saturn trine natal Saturn (after the
rerograde etc) since my Saturn return yesterday, so that's my age.
Hermes Tea, I meant the one I gave in reply #12
http://www.geocities.com/astrologysources/classicalgreece/tetrabiblos/index.htm
There are more Tetrabiblos translations on the internet, but I can't imagine the would differ a lot. Vettius
Valens and other Roman astrologers like Firmicus Maternus had a lot of influence too. Jim Testers' "A history ofwestern astrology" metnions them and it's is a good book for historical research. Tester describes Ptolemy as arational(izing) astrologer, so perhaps Ptolemy doesn't mention the other lots or parts for he does't consider
them of any importance, nor do I.
Is there any reliable or scientific reference ot that temple of Nabu, in 25,920 BC???
I didn't mean to insult Ptolemy when I wrote about Graeco/Mediterrano-centeredness, gut if he speaks about'inclination' I'm sure he meant that he realised that on a spherical earth there would be places where theclimatological circumstances would be different. Most ancient civilisations considered their people as superior
and others as barbarians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian so I think it's only natural that Ptolemy
didn't bother a second about non-Greek people from the southern hemisphere or people living at the equator.
With Jupiter in Capricorn now, in his depression, would this mean that the Jupiter transits would be lesssignificant or even meaningless (and I was just going to have some transiting jupiter sextiles and trines next
summer, improving my love life). I thought there was a thread on this saying that in using transits thesigns/rulerships/exaltations shouldn't be taken into account. This seems a bit strange to me because thesigns/rulerships/exaltations are taken into account in the natal chart which I think is nothing more than thetransit chart at moment zero in life.
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Charlie Charles 2nd

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #41 - on: 21.06.2008 at 10:49 [UT+1] »Quote:
That Thema Mundi stuff looks very well-argued, but personally the whole esoteric/old school approach that tends to involve that sort of
stuff isn't really my cup of tea in general. I prefer a more modern, stripped down approach to astrology. This opinion is not meant to becombative toward the other posters in this thread, but merely to set context for a alternative viewpoint to the original poster's question.
(although, so no one gets the mistaken the impression that I am concealing bias, I will admit that the ancient stuff and old arcane theory
tends to put me right to sleep).

Funny how the old school approach is seen as stripping it back to fundamentals and the more contempoary
approach as blurring the edges, if you look into it a bit more you may re-evaluate.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #42 - on: 21.06.2008 at 12:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 20.06.2008 at 17:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 19.06.2008 at 05:49 [UT+1]:
Cancer provides a protective environment for growth, which suits Jupiter which is about growth. There may well be otherreasons but that is how I've seen it

You're veering dangerously close to how Schmidt says the moon supports jupiter, as described in "zoidsoft"s comment to the thread I
posted.
Good to see you back, by the way.

Thanks for the welcome Ed.
It was my teacher who first commented to me about the commonality of Jupiter and Cancer, or at least a
sense of appropriateness in Jupiter's exaltation in Cancer because of their connection to growth, that was backin the late sixties.
I personally saw Cancer as being somewhat more limiting than Jupiter, more confining, but perhaps that isgood for Jupiter as it may suggest helping but controlling or shaping Jupiter's growth; afterall uncontrolled
growth is disastrous (a different sort of cancer).
Anyway the more theoretical speculation of the thread you gave is fascinating. (I followed it the previous time
you gave it). There's plenty to learn from it. Towards the end it did get a bit loose for me. I feel
uncomfortable with rationalisations like attributing planets to actions as if they were in political parties andacting like machinating humans. It just seems a bit too convenient to me to be the truth, afterall astrology
isn't only about human psychology and politics. I would expect there to be a more mathematical basis toexaltations relating to geometry or planetary position or speed/order or some such. Patrick Watson certainly
seems to have got close to it in his initial ideas.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #43 - on: 21.06.2008 at 14:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Lady Christine on 20.06.2008 at 23:19 [UT+1]:...
I have done searches before on Myspace using "astrology" as a common interest, and nothing great came up. How did you find him? He is
astoundingly bright and insightful! Thank you for posting that link! I thoroughly enjoyed reading that.
Christine

That's from the "Horoscopic Astrology" group, I beleive.
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Amy C
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #44 - on: 21.06.2008 at 15:00 [UT+1] »In my view Fd is about unconscious generosity and sharing optimism. Teaching others that they are secure in
the world, making others feel secure in your protection. Cancer is about giving and receiving nurture, Jupiter isabout expanding outward and taking it to the street.
Where there is generosity...giving...there is receiving, and therefore Fd is most beneficial in it's houseplacement and to planets it aspects. It tends towards connection with the other in a mutual exchange of
nurture where as other, less generous, planets in Cancer may tend towards looking for nurture of the self only,out of fear that needs may not be met.
Jupiter can manifest Cancer energy with fearless optimism, expanding the connection that Cancer craves andbringing it out of it's container. Teaching that to give is to receive...
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Ed Falis

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #45 - on: 21.06.2008 at 15:07 [UT+1] »GoUtopians,
I think you're mischaracterizing the Thema Mundi approach by calling it "mystical", As I see it, it's a simple setof structural (almost mathematical) relationships among the planets, aspects and signs based on a couple ofclassifications of the planets' natures. This is very "structural" rather than something occult or mystical. And
to me, the structure provides a framework for developing and exposing the meanings.
That's one way of getting at meanings: by deriving from relationships among the symbols, and applying them.
Another is to observe and "induce" the meanings from experience.

They're complementary.

Not starting an argument here, just pointing out a different perspective.
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #46 - on: 21.06.2008 at 15:18 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 21.06.2008 at 12:31 [UT+1]:...Towards the end it did get a bit loose for me. I feel uncomfortable with rationalisations like attributing planets to actions as if they werein political parties and acting like machinating humans. It just seems a bit too convenient to me to be the truth, afterall astrology isn't
only about human psychology and politics...

That's one of Schmidt's metaphors to describe how sect works. Another one, that apparently was in use forhoroscopic astrology, is the nautical one, where different planets take on various roles of a ship's crew. I don't
think there's a big problem with the use of metaphor, though I prefer a more abstract presentation.
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #47 - on: 21.06.2008 at 15:56 [UT+1] »Yes I'm familiar with the use of the nautical metaphor, it's fine with with Hellenistic astrology, being
appropriate to the era. I'm comfortable enough when it is used to depict the different roles planets play tohelp see it how the ancients may have viewed a Horoscope. Horses for courses I suppose. But it's not how I
like to view a chart. Guess I'm just not particularly nautically minded. What I find awkward is when ametaphor seems to become the justification, as if it is the reason or proof of something rather than just a
metaphor.
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GoUtopians
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #48 - on: 21.06.2008 at 16:12 [UT+1] »Ed,
I didn't think the Thema Mundi approach was mystical per se (you are correct about the structural nature of it,
and my use of the phrase "mystical underpinnings" in a later paragraph was going somewhat off the original
topic, which I should have specified)... and when I labeled it as "esoteric/old school," I knew I was in danger ofmaking a broad generalization... however, when I see that arcane (to me) distinction between "benefic" and"malefic," to me that indicates that we're operating under the overall approach that I personally would call "oldschool" (or, perhaps more accurately, "retro"). I may have misused the term "esoteric," which I will admit torather than put forth an inevitably cumbersome justification.
Quote from Ed Falis on 21.06.2008 at 15:07 [UT+1]:
GoUtopians,
I think you're mischaracterizing the Thema Mundi approach by calling it "mystical", As I see it, it's a simple set of structural (almost
mathematical) relationships among the planets, aspects and signs based on a couple of classifications of the planets' natures. This is very"structural" rather than something occult or mystical. And to me, the structure provides a framework for developing and exposing themeanings.
That's one way of getting at meanings: by deriving from relationships among the symbols, and applying them. Another is to observe and"induce" the meanings from experience. They're complementary.
Not starting an argument here, just pointing out a different perspective.

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Ed Falis

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #49 - on: 21.06.2008 at 16:22 [UT+1] »GU,
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification - makes more sense.
- Ed
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GoUtopians
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #50 - on: 21.06.2008 at 16:38 [UT+1] »CharlieCharlesthe2nd,
Not exactly sure which approach you consider to blur the edges, but I am certainly not arguing that there are
not contemporary approaches that incorporate large amounts of superfluous elements (for example, many
modern astrologers who are way too heavy on the psychology stuff, or the Joseph Campbell-esque mythology
concepts).
This is going on a tangent that is well off the thread topic, and I take responsibility for that in light of myoriginal post which you responded to, but-- when I said stripped down, where I was coming from is that I thinkastrology can be a matter of putting 2 and 2 together, applying it to right here and right now, and nothingelse. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being interested in the ancient stuff, or principles set forth by
the old school occult organizations (Rosicrucians, etc.)... I'm just saying it's optional.
And, to be fair, I should specify that I am not 100 percent opposed to anything that falls under the "oldschool/esoteric" umbrella (I just tend to incorporate it into astrology less than others). For example, I
contemplate the "esoteric rulerships" of the planets all the time (the system that has Mercury ruling Aries,
Venus ruling Gemini, etc.). I am interested in how the alternate rulership structure represents a new way oflooking at the cosmos, and not so much the "occult" principles that underlie the rationale for that structure-but, the point is, I am entirely open to understanding an alternative level of consciousness in which, forexample, Venus has more of an affinity with Gemini than with the usual Taurus/Libra, and that concept does
have its roots in some of the more "esoteric" stuff. However, I am more likely to adapt that to a wholly modern
interpretation, and to reject its "occult" basis as an overall frame of reference.

[/quote]Funny how the old school approach is seen as stripping it back to fundamentals and the more contempoary
approach as blurring the edges, if you look into it a bit more you may re-evaluate. [/quote]
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Hermes Tea

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #51 - on: 21.06.2008 at 17:40 [UT+1] »SSML,
Quote:
Quote:I personally saw Cancer as being somewhat more limiting than Jupiter, more confining, but perhaps that is good for Jupiter as it may
suggest helping but controlling or shaping Jupiter's growth; afterall uncontrolled growth is disastrous (a different sort of cancer).

I think you are making the modern mistake that planets and signs represent the same thing. Cancer and Jupiter
do not share the same attributes, to look at/for them for the exaltation answer is misleading. Cancer is themost unlimiting sign for Jupiter to be in. Also you are making comparisons between 'growth' as an expansive
concept and 'growth' as in medical cancer, there is no similarity between them. Medical Cancer is a wasting
away by decaying matter eating its surrounding tissue, in a chart this could be shown by the Moon, Saturn,Mars too if the cancer we all contain becomes aggressive; certainly not by the greater benefic, Jupiter.
Quote:
Quote:
I feel uncomfortable with rationalisations like attributing planets to actions as if they were in political parties and acting like machinating
humans. It just seems a bit too convenient to me to be the truth, afterall astrology isn't only about human psychology and politics.

In reference to this, Schmidt uses these analogies as a way of conveying the 'essence' of a planet. Astrology is a
hard enough subject to be put into words that convey how a planet is acting; it may not be the best, but I
would be interested in how you could translate ancient texts into a modern western doctrine, and then explain
it in a way most people would understand. He is not saying this is the be and end all of a planet, or that is'why' a planet works this way, he is just putting into a format that we can use to build on.
Quote:
Quote:
I would expect there to be a more mathematical basis to exaltations relating to geometry or planetary position or speed/order or somesuch.

Maybe there is, maybe not, without a time machine or a newly found papyri it is likely to remain that way forever. There is more to astrology than its mathematics, some concepts are shrouded in mystery, and willprobably remain that way too. Originally there were magical concepts allied to astrology, certain words evokedcertain Gods etc, this is still alive in the Indian tradition of today. To give an example, Ptolemy himself could
not find the formula to explain the math behind the boundaries (terms of the planets) and so proposed his own
set. 2,000 years later no-one has still managed to find their logic, probably, well at least not publicly. Some
astrologers have discarded them for that very reason, it is my contention that just because 'we' cannot
understand it does not mean it should be rejected on that one principle. It is largely the medieval horary
astrologers who are ceasing to use it these days. Baby and the bathwater come to mind, and I know the
Egyptian boundaries work and use them all the time. Most of those who have studied Hellenistic astrology haveall asked the same questions as you, they also found the answers by asking those very questions. Kudos to you
for questioning, but don't make the mistake of not questioning those very techniques you use today either.
Ed:
Quote:
Quote:
I think you're mischaracterizing the Thema Mundi approach by calling it "mystical", As I see it, it's a simple set of structural (almost
mathematical) relationships among the planets, aspects and signs based on a couple of classifications of the planets' natures. This is very"structural" rather than something occult or mystical. And to me, the structure provides a framework for developing and exposing themeanings.

Very nicely put Ed, this is exactly what the rediscovery is all about. They see it (as do I) that if one peels away
everything down to the framework we will all be in a better position to restructure it with modern
understanding. Every single person has a valid opinion, but if it is based on the fairy's it will never be
understood.
Quote:
Quote:
That's one of Schmidt's metaphors to describe how sect works. Another one, that apparently was in use for horoscopic astrology, is thenautical one, where different planets take on various roles of a ship's crew. I don't think there's a big problem with the use of metaphor,though I prefer a more abstract presentation.

That is exactly the right point Ed, Schmidt is not saying 'use these concepts' he is saying build your own
concepts around the framework, but this is how I do it.

SSML,
Quote:
Quote:
What I find awkward is when a metaphor seems to become the justification, as if it is the reason or proof of something rather than just a
metaphor.

That is not what Schmidt is saying, see above.

The proof is in the pudding, I no longer need anyone to give me input about their chart (or life) before areading, sure it can help, but a good astrologer giving good delineations by adopting some of these techniques
will clearly demonstrate a superior understanding of a natal chart. This understanding is born from theHellenistic (original astrological practice) astrological framework, one only need to try it 'with theirunderstanding' and you will see for yourself.

-HT
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Charlie Charles
2nd

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #52 - on: 21.06.2008 at 19:22 [UT+1] »Ex Member

Quote from GoUtopians on 21.06.2008 at 16:38 [UT+1]:
CharlieCharlesthe2nd,
Not exactly sure which approach you consider to blur the edges, but I am certainly not arguing that there are not contemporary approaches
that incorporate large amounts of superfluous elements (for example, many modern astrologers who are way too heavy on the psychology
stuff, or the Joseph Campbell-esque mythology concepts).
This is going on a tangent that is well off the thread topic, and I take responsibility for that in light of my original post which you
responded to, but-- when I said stripped down, where I was coming from is that I think astrology can be a matter of putting 2 and 2
together, applying it to right here and right now, and nothing else. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being interested in theancient stuff, or principles set forth by the old school occult organizations (Rosicrucians, etc.)... I'm just saying it's optional.
And, to be fair, I should specify that I am not 100 percent opposed to anything that falls under the "old school/esoteric" umbrella (I justtend to incorporate it into astrology less than others). For example, I contemplate the "esoteric rulerships" of the planets all the time (thesystem that has Mercury ruling Aries, Venus ruling Gemini, etc.). I am interested in how the alternate rulership structure represents a new
way of looking at the cosmos, and not so much the "occult" principles that underlie the rationale for that structure--but, the point is, I am
entirely open to understanding an alternative level of consciousness in which, for example, Venus has more of an affinity with Gemini thanwith the usual Taurus/Libra, and that concept does have its roots in some of the more "esoteric" stuff. However, I am more likely to adapt
that to a wholly modern interpretation, and to reject its "occult" basis as an overall frame of reference.

Funny how the old school approach is seen as stripping it back to fundamentals and the more contempoary
approach as blurring the edges, if you look into it a bit more you may re-evaluate. [/quote][/quote]I find your words a touch incomprehensible.
esoteric means hidden.
esoteric astrology is usually referenced in relation to the theosophical involvement with astrology which aroseat the end of the 19th century
as to what, if anything, is 'esoteric' about astrology is debatableso your need to clarify for me at least
watson's endeavours here seem the antithesis of 'esoteric' - just playing around with thegeometry/language/structure searching for the 'intended' initial system/thinking/rationale
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The Wizard's Eye

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #53 - on: 21.06.2008 at 19:42 [UT+1] »Its interesting that the last time Jupiter was in sidereal constellation Cancer: 2002/03, the events in Iraq
weighed heavily on minds around the world, interesting as the area in Iraq was home to the world's first known
civilizations: the Sumer civilization. In ancient culture's the stars of Cancer were considdered to represent the"Cradle of Life", so this transit strangely seemed to return human attention to the cradle of human civilization,
Jupiter of course representing civilized societies and Cancer representing the past.
The reunification of Germany also occurred while Jupiter was in sidereal Cancer, in fact the chart for the official
reunification has Jupiter in sidereal cancer conjunct the ascendant, showing the expansion of the German nationand the bringing together of the German people. Obviously the theme of this placement being faith in one's
home country as observed by the people.
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Patrick Watson
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #54 - on: 21.06.2008 at 20:08 [UT+1] »Glad people here have enjoyed my analysis of the exaltations! If any of you guys are going to the Blast
astrology conference in Sedona this September, I'll be giving a 20 minute talk about it there. It's not all dried
up arcane theory, it actually gives some very practical ways of analyzing and understanding the way planets act
in any sign.
And what I'm doing is like Ptolemy in that he was trying to make astrology have a conceptual and theoreticalconsistency, but we have wildly different approaches, necessarily because of the different times and societies wecome from. Porphyry was actually the real precedent for what I figured out, but I took it several hundred steps
further. A lot of essential astrological doctrines lie hidden in plain sight in the Thema Mundi. But even beyond
the Thema Mundi, there appear to be some very exoteric reasons for things in astrology, like the benefic/malefic
categorizations...
Plus...my name is Patrick Watson, not Patrick Walker, lol.

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Patrick Watson

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #55 - on: 21.06.2008 at 22:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Eddy Bharani on 20.06.2008 at 20:27 [UT+1]:
Mr. Walkers' analysis is very good and most of it can be traced to Ptolemy. In book I and especially in the paragraphs 4-7, 10-13 and 1719 (in 19 you can find the reasoning of the exaltations) he systemizes the signs and planets and explains malefic and benefic nature andthe connection with the hard and soft aspects. The classic Greeks were fond of systematizing, so they did with the cosmos, which doesn't
only mean 'order' but also is related to 'beauty', hence 'cosmetics'. So Ptolemy did systematize but does it mean that it should be real? I
don't think so actually. In book I 19 he states that "Then Jupiter, which produces the fecund north winds, reaches farthest north in Cancer
and brings his own power to fullness; they therefore made this sign his exaltation and Capricorn his depression." For a Greek living in 2nd
century AD Alexandria, Northern-Egypt without airconditioning northern winds coming from the mediterranean sea are much to prefer than
the southern desert winds. At my place in the Netherlands, northern winds are less pleasant, not really humid and sometimes dry but
defenitely mostly cold so in the northern countries Saturn should be exalted in Cancer for book mentions I 4 "It is Saturn's quality chiefly
to cool and, moderately, to dry, probably because he is furthest removed both from the sun's heat and the moist exhalations about theearth.", and this fits more to northern climates. In Sub Sahara West Africa the Harmattan is a desert wind hot according to some hot toothers but always dry and nasty, so over there Mars and Saturn may compete for rulership. I also think, like most astrologers do now, thewhole malefic-benific division is not real.

I appreciate your compliment. However, my analysis does not have much in common with Ptolemy. He
attempted to justify the exaltations seasonally, and what I've found is that the exaltation scheme can work
independently of the seasons, and instead lies on two crucial categorizations of planets, their benefic/malefic
nature, and their sect nature. The malefic/benefic division is not entirely arbitrary, because the minor periods ofthe planets group the benefics and malefics together in their respective camps. Mars' minor period of 15 years
is half of that of Saturn's 30 years. So Mars is like a "Saturn Jr." to Saturn. They fit together. Venus's minor
period of 8 years is coincident with Jupiter's 12 at 24 years. 3 Venuses = 2 Jupiters. Mars and Saturn's
relationship is more strict and commanding, with the exact split down the middle. Venus and Jupiter kind ofoverlap, a more co-operative relationship. It is from these minor periods, their use dating back all the way backto Babylonians, that the malefic and benefic camps were recognized.
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Patrick Watson
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #56 - on: 21.06.2008 at 22:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Eddy Bharani on 20.06.2008 at 20:27 [UT+1]:
By the way, note that Ptolemy didn't divide the signs in the four elements but the elements have their place according to natural climaticorder in every quadrant (spring, summer, autumn, winter) each then he divides them in what we now know as cardinal fixed and mutable,
book I 10,11. The cutting of the elements and dividing them 120° apart are probably of later date.
Ptolemy's explanation is Greco/Mediterrano-centric and he knows it; book I 10 "The region to the south is hottest because of the fiery heatof the sun's passages through mid-heaven and because these passages, on account of the inclination of our inhabited world, diverge moreto the south;..." Now the whole world is known I think the concept of climatological explanation is untenable, for in Australia the signs
should be reversed or book I 19 "The so-called exaltations of the planets have the following explanation. Since the sun, when he is inAries, is making his transition to the northern and higher semicircle, and in Libra is passing into the southern and lower One, they have
fittingly assigned Aries to him as his exaltation, since there the length of the day and the heating power of his nature begin to increase,and Libra as his depression for the opposite reasons." would seem very strange. And what about the countries at the equator, since there
it's usually warm and moist.
Since our rulerships and exaltations are based upon Ptolemy, it has their roots in the climatological systematization. No matter how we
psychologize and symbolize it, we still would use the same basis which I think is wrong.

What you've outlined here is the thorn in the side of the viability of the tropical zodiac. The division of thezodiac into triplicities seems to first be mentioned by Vettius Valens. What people have got to realize about
Ptolemy is that although his works were monumental at developing a somewhat theoretical and conceptual
ground for astrology to stand on in his time, he was not your average Hellenistic astrologer. He was a lateHellenistic astrologer, and he did not pay attention to a lot of crucial things his contemporaries did. He is not
representative of the time he came from.
The domicile and exaltation scheme come from the Thema Mundi, which appears to be a pretty Greek
construction of an idealization of the way the solar system is set up, from the very beginning of the age ofHellenistic astrology, so really it's Ptolemy who is the one doing the "psychologizing" and "symbolizing".
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IP LoggedPatrick Watson

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #57 - on: 21.06.2008 at 22:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Eddy Bharani on 20.06.2008 at 20:27 [UT+1]:

But what about the Babylonians who had the exaltations in 679 BC already? I think too that they had them related to the cardinal signs.
The Babylonians used a luni-solar calendar with intercalary months, like the Jewish calendar still does. The Babylonian zodiac was sidereal
but precession wasn't discovered yet so it must have been mingled with climatological or equinoctical concepts. The exaltation of the sunin Ariës or spring equinox seems logic, so does the moon in Taurus for a good second place next to the sun. In "From the omens ofBabylon: astrology and ancient Mesopotamia" by Michael Baigent Venus is mentioned as the most important object after Sun and Moonand even formed a trinity. Venus as the brightest of the five visible planets would get Pisces, in this position Venus would be the “morningstar”. Saturn may already have been known as the “old sun” and got the opposite position of the suns’, the other cardinal signs were
important too so they assigned them to Jupiter and Mars.
The Greeks also used exact points of exaltations within the signs, the point of exaltation of the moon being at 3° Taurus, for example.
These exact Greek points of exaltations have an interesing point for they all are plurals of 12° à 13° apart of eachother, so it may bepossible that elements of the lunar zodiac(27/28 constellations of ca.13° each) were processed in the exaltations. However the lunar
zodiac hasn't played a big role in Greek astrology in contrary to Indian and Chinese astrology.
Even other systems were thought out http://cura.free.fr/decem/10kengil.html
Usually the rulership of planets/gods was over (lunar) months-periods rather than over geometrical signs. So many thoughts have existed
and were invented, the fact that Ptolemy’s version doesn’t make it’s the true one. I think all rulerships, exaltations or element attributions
to signs are artificial. I only look at the equinox points as reference for planetary positions in natal charts, synastry and transits, and view
them as a sort of nodes.

A lot of interesting problems you've brought up here.
The Babylonian "bit nisriti", or the hypsomata, the "secret places" of the planets are supposed to be theancestors of the Greek exaltations. Even Hellensitic astrologer Firmicus Maternus says this explicitly, although
he does not say how exactly the Babylonian exaltations transferred to the Greek exaltations. It's a big mystery.
Because when we look at the Babylonian cuneiform tablets of planetary positions, where they would say aplanet was in its "secret place", would be nowhere near the sign of Greek exaltation, sidereally or tropically. For
instance, in one Babylonian chart, they say that Venus is in its secret place, and instead of being in Pisces as wemight expect, it was actually in Scorpio. Where else might a planet's "secret place" be? Conjunct the Sun? But
then what about when the Sun is in it's "secret place"? The Sun can't be conjunct itself! Perhaps the IC? but it
goes there everyday. There isn't an answer yet.
The Greek exaltation degrees are pretty mysterious as well. If you add up the minor periods of the planets, you
get 129 years. (Sun 19)+(Moon 25)+(Mercury 20)+(Venus 8)+(Mars 15)+(Jupiter 12)+(Saturn 30)=129.
If you add up the exaltation degrees, you get 128 years. Aries 19+Taurus 3+Virgo 15+Pisces 27+Capricorn
28+Cancer 15+Saturn 21=128. However, there ARE conflicting sources on the precise degrees of exaltation,some of them are different, some of which would allow the sum of the minor periods to be equal to thenumbers of exaltation degrees, a clear indication that the degrees of exaltation were somehow allotted from theminor periods of the planets. The fact that the Sun's degree of exaltation is equal to its minor period of 19
seems like a dead giveaway that the periods are somehow involved. For the Moon's exaltation in a sign ofVenus, Taurus, Moon (25)+Venus (8)=33, and since it goes over 30, 3 are left. 3 Taurus. Pattern doesn't holdup though.
And then again, some Hellenistic authors only say a planet is exalted at "about" a degree or "around" a degree,
suggesting a small area instead of a single degree being where a planet is exalted or fallen. Considering what
I've discovered with the Greek exaltations, it seems like the exaltation degrees had to have come afterward. It
seems clear that the signs and degrees of exaltation are Greek in origin, but the way that they are related to
the Babylonian hypsomata is in a more abstract way. Maybe just the very idea of a planet having a "secretplace" made some Greeks think about which signs were most like certain planets.
Don't give up on the signs just yet, haha. Ptolemy isn't the best guy to take your cues on them from anyway.
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GoUtopians
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #58 - on: 22.06.2008 at 00:29 [UT+1] »Charlie Charles the 2nd,
Well... the American Heritage Dictionary definition of esoteric is: 1. Intended for or understood by only a small
group, 2. Difficult to understand, abstruse, 3. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
But, nonetheless, my use of the term was admittedly intellectually lazy. And, while I certainly made somepoints that I have no intention of recanting, I'm not even sure why I got up on the soapbox that I did to begin
with, when I just as easily could have stated my perspective on exaltations (the original thread topic) and left itat that. In fact, it was stupid of me--so, some people enjoy a certain element in astrology that I am not quite
so crazy about myself... so what?
As for Watson's argument, I didn't read it thouroughly enough at first, and basically just unconsciously rolled
my eyes when I saw the terms "benefic" and "malefic," without processing that he was using the terms in amore flexible manner than they might normally be used in. This was more intellectual laziness on my part, andI just have to bite the bullet on it, or else join the ranks of those who respond to being called on their b.s. by
weaving a web of rationalizations excusing their every flawed point.
Have I conceded enough? (I'm not posting a smiley face after saying this, since they don't have a"deadpan/latent sarcasm" one, but know that the sentiment was there)[quote author=Charlie Charles 2nd link=1213837826/40#54 date=1214072520
I find your words a touch incomprehensible.
esoteric means hidden.
esoteric astrology is usually referenced in relation to the theosophical involvement with astrology which aroseat the end of the 19th century
as to what, if anything, is 'esoteric' about astrology is debatableso your need to clarify for me at least
watson's endeavours here seem the antithesis of 'esoteric' - just playing around with thegeometry/language/structure searching for the 'intended' initial system/thinking/rationale [/quote]
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IP LoggedBlue Hills

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #59 - on: 22.06.2008 at 01:09 [UT+1] »Dear Patrick,I'm glad that you have joined this discussion, and also that the more mathematically inclined members fromthis forum are getting things cooking, so to speak. You have obviously done some good mathematical researchon exaltations using sect theory.
I hope you don't mind but I've pasted a little of what you said on the myspace forum:"I figured out the rationales for the exaltations, and it works so flawlessly it could not be unintended. No moreseasonal justifications needed, you only need two pieces of information about each planet- what sect status
does it have, and is it a malefic or a benefic?
The Thema Mundi is set up so that every planet has a masculine/diurnal sign, and a feminine/nocturnal sign,
beginning with the Sun and Moon and then the planets in order, fanning out from both the Sun and the Moon,
culminating with two adjacent Saturn signs.
This is how we get the meanings for our aspects, for example, the sextile is Venusian, because the Moon in
Cancer is sextile...."
I know that modern psychological astrologers tend to balk at definitions like "benefic and malefic" but I also
realize that you are using a system which is quite old, and mainly based on mathematics, not spirituality,
esoterisism or psychology, so I am not criticising it.
I have a question which I wonder if you can answer:
I know that in your Thema Mundi system, you only use Sun to Saturn, but what if you could put in the modern
outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto? Uranus would rule Aquarius, Neptune -Pisces, and Pluto - Scorpio.
Would your Thema Mundi system be able to work out the exaltations of these planets?
I know that some of us have differing ideas about exaltations from a spiritual or psychological point of view
(like, for example, Neptune) but what does mathematics say?
Best wishes,

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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #60 - on: 22.06.2008 at 02:40 [UT+1] »SSML Quote:
Quote:
I feel uncomfortable with rationalisations like attributing planets to actions as if they were in political parties and acting like machinating
humans. It just seems a bit too convenient to me to be the truth, afterall astrology isn't only about human psychology and politics.

HT Quote:
Quote:In reference to this, Schmidt uses these analogies as a way of conveying the 'essence' of a planet. Astrology is a hard enough subject tobe put into words that convey how a planet is acting; it may not be the best, but I would be interested in how you could translate ancient
texts into a modern western doctrine, and then explain it in a way most people would understand. He is not saying this is the be and end
all of a planet, or that is 'why' a planet works this way, he is just putting into a format that we can use to build on.

HT I wasn't referring to Schmidt, if you read Patrick Watson's thread you would realise this reference wasmore about the posts Moses and Kyle made. The reference I made to nautical metaphors was not a
criticism if you reread my post, I was simply replying to Ed who attributed the metaphor's to Schmidt. I
would enjoy your posts so much more if you resisted the temptation to preach and go off half cocked.
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IP LoggedPatrick Watson

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #61 - on: 22.06.2008 at 02:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Blue Hills on 22.06.2008 at 01:09 [UT+1]:
Dear Patrick,I'm glad that you have joined this discussion, and also that the more mathematically inclined members from this forum are getting thingscooking, so to speak. You have obviously done some good mathematical research on exaltations using sect theory.
I hope you don't mind but I've pasted a little of what you said on the myspace forum:"I figured out the rationales for the exaltations, and it works so flawlessly it could not be unintended. No more seasonal justifications
needed, you only need two pieces of information about each planet- what sect status does it have, and is it a malefic or a benefic?
The Thema Mundi is set up so that every planet has a masculine/diurnal sign, and a feminine/nocturnal sign, beginning with the Sun andMoon and then the planets in order, fanning out from both the Sun and the Moon, culminating with two adjacent Saturn signs.
This is how we get the meanings for our aspects, for example, the sextile is Venusian, because the Moon in Cancer is sextile...."
I know that modern psychological astrologers tend to balk at definitions like "benefic and malefic" but I also realize that you are using asystem which is quite old, and mainly based on mathematics, not spirituality, esoterisism or psychology, so I am not criticising it.
I have a question which I wonder if you can answer:
I know that in your Thema Mundi system, you only use Sun to Saturn, but what if you could put in the modern outer planets Uranus,
Neptune and Pluto? Uranus would rule Aquarius, Neptune -Pisces, and Pluto - Scorpio. Would your Thema Mundi system be able to workout the exaltations of these planets?
I know that some of us have differing ideas about exaltations from a spiritual or psychological point of view (like, for example, Neptune)
but what does mathematics say?
Best wishes,

It's not really mathematical as much as logical, using induction, deduction, the geometry is a byproduct. I can't
really agree with your statement "you are using a system which is quite old, and mainly based on mathematics,
not spirituality, esoterisism or psychology". It's the original framework of western astrology, the bedrock ofastrological understanding. Traditional forms of astrology have as much to offer if not more in the realms of
psychology and spirituality. It can also offer accurate prediction and precise timing of events.
If you look at the way the Thema Mundi is set up you'll notice there is no more room for planets to become
representative of a certain kind of aspect, unless you just made more signs. The planets with domiciles are theplanets we can see. We cannot ever see the outer planets with the naked eye (except Uranus, and only when it
is at its opposition with the Sun, faintly). I think where the inner planets show us the things we see in regular
every day life, the outers show extraordinary things, outside of the ordinary, things we don't normally see everyday. Jupiter conjunct Uranus at the Moon Landing, superior Sun-Venus conjunction conjunct Uranus on day of"I Have a Dream" speech, stuff like that. I think the outers do not need a domicile to preside over, they are free
agents without domicile lord duties. An outer planet cannot have an exaltation if it does not have a domicile (asign it rules).
However, I think I have been able to determine the natures of the outer planets. You may have seen on the
Myspace forum that I showed a way that the benefic/malefic natures may have been determined, because theminor periods of Mars match up with Saturn, and the minor periods of Venus and Jupiter match up. Well
Uranus's 84 years are approximately half of Neptune's 165 years, which is a similar relationship between theminor periods of Mars and Saturn. However far Uranus has traveled since birth, Neptune travels half as far. To
me that looks like they're co-operating. So we have the lights, the Sun and the Moon, the benefics, Venus andJupiter, the malefics, Mars and Saturn, and the transcendentals, Uranus and Neptune. And of course theambiguous prankster in a class by himself aligned with both and with neither, Mercury.
Not only that, but the minor period of Jupiter, 12, fits into Uranus' 84 years 7 times. The minor period of Mars,
15, fits into Neptune's 165 years 11 times. This suggest to me that there is a special affinity for Jupiter andMars to Uranus and Neptune respectively. Jupiter is a diurnal benefic, so perhaps Uranus is also a diurnal
benefic. Mars is a nocturnal malefic, and so perhaps Neptune is also a nocturnal malefic. If they had a domicile,then you would be able to use this information to figure out their exaltations, but it's pretty much irrelevant,they have an astrological effect anyway. I have found modern rulerhips to be a bit vacuous and hastily assigned,
often in ignorance of the way domicile lordships were originally assigned.
Although Venus's minor period of 8 fits into Pluto's 248 equally, the rate of recurrence deteriorates, so as Pluto
returns to itself after 248 years, Venus is nowhere near the degree it was 248 years ago. And I certainly
wouldn't say Pluto is a nocturnal BENEFIC. Nocturnal maybe, benefic not so much. I think Pluto is on a different
level than the outers since it is so far out and so far off the ecliptic.
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SunSagMoonLib
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #62 - on: 22.06.2008 at 03:12 [UT+1] »HT Quote:
I think you are making the modern mistake that planets and signs represent the same thing. Cancer and Jupiter do not share the same
attributes, to look at/for them for the exaltation answer is misleading. Cancer is the most unlimiting sign for Jupiter to be in. Also you aremaking comparisons between 'growth' as an expansive concept and 'growth' as in medical cancer, there is no similarity between them.
Medical Cancer is a wasting away by decaying matter eating its surrounding tissue, in a chart this could be shown by the Moon, Saturn,Mars too if the cancer we all contain becomes aggressive; certainly not by the greater benefic, Jupiter.

Interestingly C.E.O Carter says this about the disease cancer:
The typical indication is that the Sun is nearly always related to both Jupiter and Saturn, either by aspect orsign. Thus it may be in aspect with both , or in aspect with one either in or from the sign ruled by the other.
For example it may be in Sagittarius is aspect with Saturn, or Saturn may aspect it from a sign of Jupiter. He
says Neptune sometimes seems to take the place of Jupiter, and also that about 25 degrees Virgo Pisces is acommon area of affliction. It seems to be connected with swollen conditions generally, tumours and growths.
(Page 47 Psychological astrology, Carter).
My wife's mother and two sisters died from Cancer. I don't feel like going through their charts right now but
will take a look at them later.
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #63 - on: 22.06.2008 at 03:33 [UT+1] »Hi Patrick. I just wanted to thank you for your post on myspace. I don't know much about old school astrology
but it cleared up a few questions about how that system was working versus how it works today about
rulerships and the day and night aspects. And helped with my terrible beginnings of understanding harmonics.
Very nice rock you pulled out of the abyss there.
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #64 - on: 22.06.2008 at 03:40 [UT+1] »Quote from AstroSun* on 20.06.2008 at 17:47 [UT+1]:
A for teaching/knowledge/spirituality to be expressed.

Well it makes jupiters wisdom more nurturing and ties it to emotional components. Knowledge thatemotionally and intellectually satisfies is better than unemotional facts that don't have any bearing on a
persons emotional makeup and satisifies virgo's demands for usefulness of understandings.
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IP LoggedBlue Hills

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #65 - on: 22.06.2008 at 04:03 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 22.06.2008 at 02:49 [UT+1]:...It's not really mathematical as much as logical, using induction, deduction, the geometry is a byproduct. I can't really agree with yourstatement "you are using a system which is quite old, and mainly based on mathematics, not spirituality, esoterisism or psychology". It's
the original framework of western astrology, ....

OK, just to clear things up, I believe that God is both a mathematician/trigonometrist and psychologist. An
ancient kaballistic aphorism says that "the secret to all spiritual activities is number". The emphasis in mystatement was on the word "mainly".
You make a lot of interesting points in your post above, thank you. The quote below expecially caught my eye,because it seems to fit quite nicely with the qabalistic Tree Of Life, which is based on the kaballah with theaddition of the major arcana of tarot, invented about 1200 A.D. , and thown together by Eliphas Levi in thelate 1800s. As you probably know, The Tree Of Life is a geometric diagram, and you can also trace the Arabic
numerals in the paths connecting the spheres.
Quote:....Not only that, but the minor period of Jupiter, 12, fits into Uranus' 84 years 7 times. The minor period of Mars, 15, fits into Neptune's
165 years 11 times. This suggest to me that there is a special affinity for Jupiter and Mars to Uranus and Neptune respectively.

In the picture below, (copyright Builders Of The Adytum, www.bota.org) the path assigned to Neptune, The
Hanged Man, runs from the sphere called "Severity" which is associated with Mars. And the sphere named"Mercy" (Jupiter), is right below the sphere named "Wisdom", formerly known as the "Sphere of the Zodiac"(Mazloth) but more recently associated with Uranus.
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tree6.jpg (attachment deleted)« Last Edit: 22.06.2008 at 17:40 [UT+1] by Apostrophe »IP LoggedLady Christine
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #66 - on: 22.06.2008 at 07:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 21.06.2008 at 20:08 [UT+1]:
Glad people here have enjoyed my analysis of the exaltations! If any of you guys are going to the Blast astrology conference in Sedona
this September, I'll be giving a 20 minute talk about it there. It's not all dried up arcane theory, it actually gives some very practical waysof analyzing and understanding the way planets act in any sign.

Hi! Nice to meet you Patrick Watson,and see you visiting this forum. Is Sedona in United States
Arizona? Just to clarify for the International folks.

Quote from Patrick Watson on 21.06.2008 at 20:08 [UT+1]:
But even beyond the Thema Mundi, there appear to be some very exoteric reasons for things in astrology, like the benefic/malefic
categorizations...

Agreed! The most interesting thing I am observing in this thread at the moment; is that thechallenge/debate/discussion of wanting/needing/accepting/justifying/clarifying the requisite for (or not for),"esoteric" involvement within the science and math of astrology is ensuing from... mostly males.
LOL
Could be coincidence I suppose. What would the likes of Nostradamus have to say? (joking, and I hope itbrings some smiles)

Quote from Patrick Watson on 21.06.2008 at 20:08 [UT+1]:
we have wildly different approaches, necessarily because of the different times and societies we come from.

In part most true! Yet while we enjoy probing & 'chewing this fatty discussion' shouldn't we all consider thediffering approaches a pivitol derivative of our unique nativities? Our need to rationalize, discover, andunderstand relation to abstract thought - varies considerably via the way we are designed.
It is to be expected to a certain extent, some of us will never fully distinguish the need to follow both
applications of the abstract, and the mathematical science of Astrology.

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Lady Christine

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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #67 - on: 22.06.2008 at 07:49 [UT+1] »Quote from The Wizard's Eye on 21.06.2008 at 07:36 [UT+1]:
I've heard of Neptune supposedly being exalted in Leo as well. Personally I believe Neptune is exalted in Gemini and fallen in Sagittarius.
Both Mercury and Gemini are associated with the magician which blends well with mystical, elusive Neptune, while to find redemption in
universal fraternity is an inspiring goal, Neptune washing away the petty quarrels of men. In contrast Neptune fogs clear minded
Sagittarian philosophy, Sagittarian laws and codes are at odds with Neptune's desire to wash away all mental barriers between people. inmythology, Zeus/Jupiter was the brother of Hades and often responded to his demands, while Neptune/Poseidon was the only brother
Pluto ever feared, thus this is another sign that Neptune in Sagittarius is a contradiction in terms. Neptune is often there to wash away theharsh extremism of Pluto but in Sagittarius Neptune has to bow to give Pluto more weight than it would prefer.

Wizard's Eye~
Thank you for replying to my post. You touch on an infrequent, yet additional perspective for planet
exaltation, and offer a considerable premise for your reasoning.
Yet, using your mythology line of reasoning & support, wouldn't Neptune/Poseidon being the only brother Plutofeared, logically contradict Neptune feeling compelled to "bow" to Pluto? Just got a little confused on yourthoughts....
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Patrick Watson
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #68 - on: 22.06.2008 at 08:06 [UT+1] »Yup, that's Sedona, Arizona.
www.blastastrologyconference.com
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The Wizard's Eye

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #69 - on: 22.06.2008 at 08:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Lady Christine on 22.06.2008 at 07:49 [UT+1]:
Wizard's Eye~
Thank you for replying to my post. You touch on an infrequent, yet additional perspective for planet exaltation, and offer a considerable
premise for your reasoning.
Yet, using your mythology line of reasoning & support, wouldn't Neptune/Poseidon being the only brother Pluto feared, logically contradict
Neptune feeling compelled to "bow" to Pluto? Just got a little confused on your thoughts....

Hi Lady Christine,
Yes you're right, Neptune/Poseidon bowing to Pluto contradicts Neptune's nature, which explains why it could
be fallen in Sagittarius as Zeus/Jupiter often bowed to Pluto/Hades demands and dictates. So this would
explain why Neptune could feel thwarted or misunderstood in Sagittarius. In contrast, Neptune, ruling Pisces,
the fish swimming in opposite directions could feel very much at home in Gemini, the sign of the twins who
spend half their time in the heavens and the other half in the underworld, essentially opposite arenas.
Hope this makes sense
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Charlie Charles
2nd

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #70 - on: 22.06.2008 at 10:17 [UT+1] »Ex Member

Quote:
Traditional forms of astrology have as much to offer if not more in the realms of psychology and spirituality. It can also offer accurate
prediction and precise timing of events.

Both these statements are dubious.
If you define 'traditional' as pre-20th century I don't think your find much abot the underlying motives,complexes and family inheritance (the focus of psychological astrology) in the literature. Occasionally people
cite Ptolemy's thoughts on the soul as psychology but this is naive in terms of the last 150 yrs of psychologicalresearch. I'll ignore spirituality as it is such a nebulous concept.
As for the 'predictive' capacity of various techniques, where's the evidence??

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Charlie Charles 2nd

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #71 - on: 22.06.2008 at 10:27 [UT+1] »[quote author=GoUtopians link=1213837826/40#58 date=1214090974]Charlie Charles the 2nd,
Well... the American Heritage Dictionary definition of esoteric is: 1. Intended for or understood by only a small
group, 2. Difficult to understand, abstruse, 3. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
But, nonetheless, my use of the term was admittedly intellectually lazy. And, while I certainly made somepoints that I have no intention of recanting, I'm not even sure why I got up on the soapbox that I did to begin
with, when I just as easily could have stated my perspective on exaltations (the original thread topic) and left itat that. In fact, it was stupid of me--so, some people enjoy a certain element in astrology that I am not quite
so crazy about myself... so what?
As for Watson's argument, I didn't read it thouroughly enough at first, and basically just unconsciously rolled
my eyes when I saw the terms "benefic" and "malefic," without processing that he was using the terms in amore flexible manner than they might normally be used in. This was more intellectual laziness on my part, andI just have to bite the bullet on it, or else join the ranks of those who respond to being called on their b.s. by
weaving a web of rationalizations excusing their every flawed point.
Have I conceded enough? (I'm not posting a smiley face after saying this, since they don't have a"deadpan/latent sarcasm" one, but know that the sentiment was there)

If you go with the AHD definitions then all subjects/disciplines have an element of the esoteric. In these days of
the world wide web much of the history/ chronology of astrology is availiable on-line for folks to familiarise
themselves with.
All astrologers need to know about the fundamentals and, even though it might not be to your 'taste', it's partof the curriculum.
I agree that we need some more descriptive smiley's
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IP LoggedEddy Bharani
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #72 - on: 22.06.2008 at 14:42 [UT+1] »Thanks for you contributions Patrick. A few minutes ago I lost my reply with reactions to and thoughts overyour ideas, I had written down, I don't know what happened. I had nearly reached the maximum number ofcharacters in my text. I'm sorry but I can't write it all down again but I still want to say that when some see
your analysis as an opposed factor to esoterism and spiritualism it isn't really opposed for the ancientphilosophers saw the mathematical part as core of the esoterism. Astrology depends on plain physics andastronomy.
From now on I will write long comments in a word document before posting, and I can advise others to do thesame for losing a reply after two hours of writing and considering thoughts is very @#&%>~. It's better that
there are no smiley's here to express this.
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #73 - on: 22.06.2008 at 15:21 [UT+1] »Quote from The Wizard's Eye on 22.06.2008 at 08:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lady Christine on 22.06.2008 at 07:49 [UT+1]:
Wizard's Eye~
Thank you for replying to my post. You touch on an infrequent, yet additional perspective for planet exaltation, and offer aconsiderable premise for your reasoning.
Yet, using your mythology line of reasoning & support, wouldn't Neptune/Poseidon being the only brother Pluto feared,
logically contradict Neptune feeling compelled to "bow" to Pluto? Just got a little confused on your thoughts....

Hi Lady Christine,
Yes you're right, Neptune/Poseidon bowing to Pluto contradicts Neptune's nature, which explains why it could be fallen in Sagittarius as
Zeus/Jupiter often bowed to Pluto/Hades demands and dictates. So this would explain why Neptune could feel thwarted or misunderstoodin Sagittarius. In contrast, Neptune, ruling Pisces, the fish swimming in opposite directions could feel very much at home in Gemini, thesign of the twins who spend half their time in the heavens and the other half in the underworld, essentially opposite arenas.
Hope this makes sense

Jupiter ties to mercury in sag/gemini. Neptune ties to mercury in virgo/pisces. It's jupiters job to both thwart
and glorify neptune. Gemini loves neptune like crazy because gemini brings conciousness to it. Virgo, pisces,
sag and gemini are the crosshairs on the zodiac of truth. These 4 signs of the zodiac are very very intimate witheach other in very special peculiar ways. They are the elements that make up the 3rd eye, second site, whatever
you want to call it.
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #74 - on: 22.06.2008 at 15:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Eddy Bharani on 22.06.2008 at 14:42 [UT+1]:
From now on I will write long comments in a word document before posting, and I can advise others to do the same for losing a reply
after two hours of writing and considering thoughts is very @#&%>~. It's better that there are no smiley's here to express this.

Eddy, I know how you feel; been there!
Patrick, thank you so much for joining in; I hope you will continue to do so. We can definitely learn from you!
And now that I'm aware of the Myspace forum, I'll be checking that out too. I had done a general search of'astrology' on Myspace and come up with nothing in particular, so I'm very glad to have found you.
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Eddy Bharani

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #75 - on: 22.06.2008 at 16:17 [UT+1] »Thanks Pamela,
I still would like to mention the 17th century astrologer Jean Baptiste Morin de Villefranche who wrote his"Astrologia Gallica" containing 26 books. There is a Google books translation in English
http://books.google.nl/books?id=2QW4TQAlh3EC&pg=PR1&dq=%22jean+baptiste+morin+de+villefranche%22&hl=en&sig=emLZXRHZw19Z4KQOV8AupQ-X5Yo#PPP1,M1
strengths. He seems to have made a lot of use of planetary rulerships.

on planetary

He had a non climatological explanation ( http://www.forumonastrology.com/morin-bio.html ) of thesigns/rulerships and considered the origin in the "premium mobile", the 'background' of the spheres. This would
make the signs appropriate for the earth's southern hemisphere too although this concept was part of thegeocentric/ptolemaic system which he favoured (most astronomers in his days too didn't accept the heliocentric
system yet in his days). I'm not sure if there is a way of applying this theory in the heliocentric system, for a
projected background of the spheres is no longer realistic to imagine but we would rather have to look in thecenter of the earth for the tropical ecliptic. Perhaps a theory involving magnetic fields or the fact that there ismore land on the northern hemisphere than on the southern hemisphere.
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IP LoggedPatrick Watson
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #76 - on: 22.06.2008 at 21:44 [UT+1] »Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 22.06.2008 at 10:17 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Traditional forms of astrology have as much to offer if not more in the realms of psychology and spirituality. It can alsooffer accurate prediction and precise timing of events.

Both these statements are dubious.
If you define 'traditional' as pre-20th century I don't think your find much abot the underlying motives, complexes and family inheritance(the focus of psychological astrology) in the literature. Occasionally people cite Ptolemy's thoughts on the soul as psychology but this isnaive in terms of the last 150 yrs of psychological research. I'll ignore spirituality as it is such a nebulous concept.
As for the 'predictive' capacity of various techniques, where's the evidence??

I meant traditional as in pre-classical. Basically Hellenistic, Medieval, and Vedic. And sure they didn't havepsychoanalysis, but they would be able to say something about a person's predisposition and motivations inclear terms. Once more astrologers start using stuff like the different timelord systems, annual profections,
Zodiacal Releasing, we'll see more examples of it working just as it has been for the astrologers of Project
Hindsight and the ancient astrologers of the Hellenistic era. I've had astounding results with them, personally.
Astrology in the Hellenistic era was event-oriented, and they could account for it. For a taste, you should readthis article:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/Zodiacal%20Releasing%20-%20John%20Kerry .pdf
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oldowlwise

Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #77 - on: 23.06.2008 at 02:02 [UT+1] »Patrick Watson said Quote:
I've had astounding results with them, personally.

Posts: 18

Hi Patrick,always good to read someone who can put their case clearly. Why don't you post some of your results thatyou found astounding, in the appropriate section "other branches" of this forum? I find it far more accessible
to read how you experienced it and why it astounded you.

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Hermes Tea
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #78 - on: 23.06.2008 at 12:55 [UT+1] »SSML,
Quote:
Quote:HT I wasn't referring to Schmidt, if you read Patrick Watson's thread you would realise this reference was more about the posts Moses andKyle made.

1. The very moment you mention Hellenistic astrology you are talking about Schmidt, if were even mildly awareof what is going on around you, you would know that.
2. Would you care to show me where I said you referred to Schmidt? No, you cant, because I did not say you
did. Why don't you try your own medicine and actually read 'what is written', not what your poor brain thinks
has been written?
Quote:
Quote:
I would enjoy your posts so much more if you resisted the temptation to preach and go off half cocked.

Awwww, because I told you in another post you preach, you have to reply using my words? You poor little
brain cannot work without stealing the words of others!
Half cocked, do you even understand the meaning of the words you use, I suspect not. I state my case USINGASTROLOGY, I do not witter on endlessly about rubbish that could apply to any one of 7 billion people...
Insipiens, tu urbanus vero scurra!
Quote:
Quote:
Interestingly C.E.O Carter says this about the disease cancer:

Carter says it, it must be right then.

Fiat justitia ruat coelum!

Quote:
Quote:The typical indication is that the Sun is nearly always related to both Jupiter and Saturn, either by aspect or sign.

And you statistics for this are...

One person says it in one book...

Quote:
Quote:For example it may be in Sagittarius is aspect with Saturn,A sign in aspect with a planet...
Quote:
Quote:It seems to be connected with swollen conditions generally, tumours and growths. (Page 47 Psychological astrology, Carter).

Stats...

Swollen = MARS, obviously not in your astrologically challenged world.

Quote:
Quote:
My wife's mother and two sisters died from Cancer. I don't feel like going through their charts right now but will take a look at them later.

Don't bother, you do not have sufficient astrological knowledge. I would guess you are still struggling with join
the dots books. Attention seeker!
To the NON morons lurking here, I will return in a year or two and see if the manners of the morons have
improved here.

Absum!
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IP LoggedEddy Bharani

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #79 - on: 23.06.2008 at 14:40 [UT+1] »Hello SunSagMoonLib,
When I saw Hermes Tea's rude remarks, I noticed that is was directed against your post about your relatives
who died from cancer. I'm sorry to read that. A few days ago he attacked my replies. I don't mind a harddebate, please disagree with me but he ended his post to me with the words discussion "disussion ended". That
cowardliness isn't my cup of tea either but I still can live with that. But when I read how he replies to one, who
openheartedly tells about his problems, and then 'ex-members' himself after stabbing in the back and quits likea sneaky rat, I realise that someone like that shouldn't be here joining the forum. No smiley can ever express
my thoughts about this either.
I can imagine that you don't feel for looking in charts of people close to you who died. It's not always satisfying
and can give a feeling like "should I do a thing like this?". Please keep joining the discussions.
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #80 - on: 23.06.2008 at 14:46 [UT+1] »People here are pretty tolerant. I've been guilty of stating my understandings too forcefully at times and people
have let it go. It's a very forgiving group.

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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #81 - on: 23.06.2008 at 15:22 [UT+1] »I appreciate your post Eddy. I long ago stopped worrying about Hermes Tea attacking me, also under othernames, and also via PMs'/emails when I mistakenly accepted an offer he made to share his knowledge ofHellenistic techniques. I got sick of him jumping to wrong conclusions and flaming me if I queried
anything he wrote. I suspect that history between us has fuelled his bile. I also have noticed his propensity to
exaggerate what others have said in order to set up straw men which he then launches into with somevenom.
I hope there are others with Hellenistic knowledge who will contribute to this forum without the nastiness.
For the record I did look at the charts of the women in my wife's family who died of cancer and all had Jupiteremphasized.
One had Sun conjunct Saturn natally with Sun exactly semisquare Jupiter and died when the progressed Sun,
progressed Jupiter and progressed Pluto were all at 6 Leo.
Another had Sun and Jupiter in conjunction natally and died when prog Jupiter was 7 Cancer with prog Pluto 6
cancer and prog Saturn sextile the natal Sun. Prog Sun was Opposition prog Uranus.
The remaining sister had Jupiter and Saturn in square natally, with Jupiter in Sagittarius, Saturn in Pisces and
Sun in Cancer so there was a Jupiter connection between them via the signs of Jupiter's rulership or exaltation.
She died when the Sun progressed to sextile its natal place and trine to natal Uranus.
I don't have the times of birth, so can't look at the angles or the Moon's position nevertheless from that brieflook it seems consistent with what C.E.O Carter wrote.
Thought I'd change my avatar for a day or two , more in keeping with the sideshow.
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IP Loggedpaneagle
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #82 - on: 23.06.2008 at 15:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 22.06.2008 at 08:06 [UT+1]:
Yup, that's Sedona, Arizona.
www.blastastrologyconference.com

PATRICKAs i did not see myspace.com note per your discussion groupfrom paneagle - 2000 = on HARMONICS and 60TH HARMONIC SOL SIGNS, I
request here your harmonic references to specifics of 1x-12x, 30x and 60x and above.
as relative to the 360 wheel definitions...thus 60x and 6x are of course related.
but how would you put the whole into a most simple dynamic relation.
I have found the 60th harmonic as not only highly significant but completely
ignored in the sense of its essence in every minute of degree value.. i ,ejupiter in 19capricorn32 is in the sol (60th harmonic) jupiter position of 2 cancer
and conjunct the sun this day at 2 degree. This actually doubles the entire field of astrology data being used today.
I feel like the Al Gore of Astrologers at this point. for simple example- jupiter was exalted in sol cancer this past week when this thread appeared.
today jove is at 19cap26 and the sol degree of 26 of gemini opposite pluto.
these are all important daily or current aspect.
Like to see your harmonic references.
Thanks; p
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Charlie Charles 2nd

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #83 - on: 23.06.2008 at 17:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 22.06.2008 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 22.06.2008 at 10:17 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Traditional forms of astrology have as much to offer if not more in the realms of psychology and spirituality.
It can also offer accurate prediction and precise timing of events.

Both these statements are dubious.
If you define 'traditional' as pre-20th century I don't think your find much abot the underlying motives, complexes andfamily inheritance (the focus of psychological astrology) in the literature. Occasionally people cite Ptolemy's thoughts on
the soul as psychology but this is naive in terms of the last 150 yrs of psychological research. I'll ignore spirituality as it issuch a nebulous concept.
As for the 'predictive' capacity of various techniques, where's the evidence??

I meant traditional as in pre-classical. Basically Hellenistic, Medieval, and Vedic. And sure they didn't have psychoanalysis, but they would
be able to say something about a person's predisposition and motivations in clear terms. Once more astrologers start using stuff like thedifferent timelord systems, annual profections, Zodiacal Releasing, we'll see more examples of it working just as it has been for the
astrologers of Project Hindsight and the ancient astrologers of the Hellenistic era. I've had astounding results with them, personally.
Astrology in the Hellenistic era was event-oriented, and they could account for it. For a taste, you should read this article:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/Zodiacal%20Releasing%20-%20John%20Kerry .pdf

I don't think your find much insight into pre-dispositions and motivations other than the superficial, at least as
far as i'm aware no one has as yet from the re-translations going on. Not surprisingly as in a clinical sense the'unconscious' was only discovered in the late 19th century. However Psychological astrology isn't confined to
psycho-dyanamic models it uses others where they seem congruent with the astrological model of the psyche.
As to this particular Time Lord procedure my minds open as to the usefulness of this, amongst other Hellenistic
techniques. Like many people i'm following the developments in these 're-discoveries' with interest but i'm notexpecting all that much, rightly or wrongly! Primarily from the prejudice that if these techniques were so
successful why did they disappear? Perhaps one day you or someone else will be able to demonstrate theirapplication consistently if only in relation to the 'events' of a persons life.
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IP Loggedrhetorike
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #84 - on: 23.06.2008 at 18:20 [UT+1] »I don't know, guys.... I can get REALLY hot under the collar about Hellenistic astrology.
after all, isn't it really important that we cling desperately to our position on any given subject, since, after all, this stuff is
REALLY SERIOUS, and more important than anything we could otherwise be doing with our time??
I think anyone who is SERIOUS about this stuff would be busy defending his position to the death.
boy, this place is so much like academia! it's great to be reminded of those days... the clawing desperation to defend one's
argument... the overall importance of the argument to everyone on the planet.....

good times.

SSML, that is a GREAT avatar; fully in keeping with the turn the thread has taken. Now I want to change mine, too.

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IXFJSag

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #85 - on: 23.06.2008 at 18:39 [UT+1] »I love it when the men argue. It gives me so much stuff to think about. Always good for the learning
experience.
Love to all,Sag
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JonathanEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #86 - on: 23.06.2008 at 19:16 [UT+1] »Well if men's higher self is female and womens higher self is male then where does that put the arguements.

Like india women are subjected to father then husband then sons while simultaneously worshiping feminine
gods and displaying a type of womb envy in their society. Makes ya wonder what you're looking at if that is thetruth of it.
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judyanne

Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #87 - on: 23.06.2008 at 19:21 [UT+1] »Internet argument is just like wanking off. It feels good to the person doing it, but the rest of us are madeuncomfortable by having to watch.
Hermes is well known on this forum as a wanker.

Posts: 2012
Gender:Back to top

IP LoggedPatrick Watson
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #88 - on: 23.06.2008 at 19:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 23.06.2008 at 17:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Patrick Watson on 22.06.2008 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 22.06.2008 at 10:17 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Traditional forms of astrology have as much to offer if not more in the realms of psychology
and spirituality. It can also offer accurate prediction and precise timing of events.

Both these statements are dubious.
If you define 'traditional' as pre-20th century I don't think your find much abot the underlying motives,complexes and family inheritance (the focus of psychological astrology) in the literature. Occasionally people
cite Ptolemy's thoughts on the soul as psychology but this is naive in terms of the last 150 yrs of
psychological research. I'll ignore spirituality as it is such a nebulous concept.
As for the 'predictive' capacity of various techniques, where's the evidence??

I meant traditional as in pre-classical. Basically Hellenistic, Medieval, and Vedic. And sure they didn't have psychoanalysis,
but they would be able to say something about a person's predisposition and motivations in clear terms. Once more
astrologers start using stuff like the different timelord systems, annual profections, Zodiacal Releasing, we'll see more
examples of it working just as it has been for the astrologers of Project Hindsight and the ancient astrologers of theHellenistic era. I've had astounding results with them, personally. Astrology in the Hellenistic era was event-oriented, andthey could account for it. For a taste, you should read this article:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/Zodiacal%20Releasing%20-%20John%20Kerry .pdf

I don't think your find much insight into pre-dispositions and motivations other than the superficial, at least as far as i'm aware no one has
as yet from the re-translations going on. Not surprisingly as in a clinical sense the 'unconscious' was only discovered in the late 19th
century. However Psychological astrology isn't confined to psycho-dyanamic models it uses others where they seem congruent with theastrological model of the psyche.
As to this particular Time Lord procedure my minds open as to the usefulness of this, amongst other Hellenistic techniques. Like many
people i'm following the developments in these 're-discoveries' with interest but i'm not expecting all that much, rightly or wrongly!
Primarily from the prejudice that if these techniques were so successful why did they disappear? Perhaps one day you or someone else will
be able to demonstrate their application consistently if only in relation to the 'events' of a persons life.

And within that prejudice lies the prejudice that only the most successful techniques were the ones handed
down. Look up the myth of progress.
They already have, by Robert Schmidt on the Zodiacal Releasing Workshop, over 10 hours of audio, applying
the technique of Zodiacal Releasing from the Lot of Spirit generally and very specifically to about a dozen
charts of well known people. What it does is block out one's professional career into large episodes andsubdivisions, in some cases in the exact same way that biographers (who know nothing about astrology)
separate a person's life into chapters. You can identify when a person reaches their "peak" periods ofrecognition or fame (if they have them), when their career changes, when something within a career changes,
when a person realizes their "life's work", etc. The technique seems to be able to outline and describe thesedevelopments very accurately. It's difficult but the results are hard to argue with, and you can see a taste ofthat with the article I sent you.
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Patrick Watson

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #89 - on: 23.06.2008 at 19:51 [UT+1] »Quote from oldowlwise on 23.06.2008 at 02:02 [UT+1]:
Patrick Watson said Quote:
I've had astounding results with them, personally.

Hi Patrick,always good to read someone who can put their case clearly. Why don't you post some of your results that you found astounding, in theappropriate section "other branches" of this forum? I find it far more accessible to read how you experienced it and why it astounded you.

I could do something like that...
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #90 - on: 23.06.2008 at 20:01 [UT+1] »That'd be great, Patrick.

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IP LoggedCharlie Charles 2nd

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #91 - on: 23.06.2008 at 20:47 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 23.06.2008 at 19:50 [UT+1]:
Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 23.06.2008 at 17:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Patrick Watson on 22.06.2008 at 21:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 22.06.2008 at 10:17 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Traditional forms of astrology have as much to offer if not more in the realms of
psychology and spirituality. It can also offer accurate prediction and precise timingof events.

Both these statements are dubious.
If you define 'traditional' as pre-20th century I don't think your find much abot the underlying
motives, complexes and family inheritance (the focus of psychological astrology) in theliterature. Occasionally people cite Ptolemy's thoughts on the soul as psychology but this isnaive in terms of the last 150 yrs of psychological research. I'll ignore spirituality as it is such anebulous concept.
As for the 'predictive' capacity of various techniques, where's the evidence??

I meant traditional as in pre-classical. Basically Hellenistic, Medieval, and Vedic. And sure they didn't havepsychoanalysis, but they would be able to say something about a person's predisposition and motivations inclear terms. Once more astrologers start using stuff like the different timelord systems, annual profections,
Zodiacal Releasing, we'll see more examples of it working just as it has been for the astrologers of Project
Hindsight and the ancient astrologers of the Hellenistic era. I've had astounding results with them,
personally. Astrology in the Hellenistic era was event-oriented, and they could account for it. For a taste,
you should read this article:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/articles/Zodiacal%20Releasing%20-%20John%20Kerry .pdf

I don't think your find much insight into pre-dispositions and motivations other than the superficial, at least as far as i'maware no one has as yet from the re-translations going on. Not surprisingly as in a clinical sense the 'unconscious' was only
discovered in the late 19th century. However Psychological astrology isn't confined to psycho-dyanamic models it uses
others where they seem congruent with the astrological model of the psyche.
As to this particular Time Lord procedure my minds open as to the usefulness of this, amongst other Hellenistic techniques.
Like many people i'm following the developments in these 're-discoveries' with interest but i'm not expecting all thatmuch, rightly or wrongly! Primarily from the prejudice that if these techniques were so successful why did they disappear?
Perhaps one day you or someone else will be able to demonstrate their application consistently if only in relation to the'events' of a persons life.

And within that prejudice lies the prejudice that only the most successful techniques were the ones handed down. Look up the myth ofprogress.
They already have, by Robert Schmidt on the Zodiacal Releasing Workshop, over 10 hours of audio, applying the technique of Zodiacal
Releasing from the Lot of Spirit generally and very specifically to about a dozen charts of well known people. What it does is block out
one's professional career into large episodes and subdivisions, in some cases in the exact same way that biographers (who know nothing
about astrology) separate a person's life into chapters. You can identify when a person reaches their "peak" periods of recognition or fame(if they have them), when their career changes, when something within a career changes, when a person realizes their "life's work", etc.
The technique seems to be able to outline and describe these developments very accurately. It's difficult but the results are hard to argue
with, and you can see a taste of that with the article I sent you.

The 'myth of progress' is often cited by the traditionalists, such as zoller and the coming of the scientificrevolution. If you look at Ptolemy's thoughts on the astrology and psychology of Epilepsy we have come a longway!
My view on all this , for what it's worth, is what's the evidence. We recently had a discussion here on the
Nasser 'under one sky' book which if you don't know features various techniques/authors reading a blind chart.
Including schmidt (hellenistic) and hand (with his modified medieval approach) and a couple of vedic's.
The only person who was able to 'read' this character and describe the type of events she was likely toexperience with much success was the psychological astrologer (evelyn roberts). We could do with a few more
books of this nature to see who/what comes up trumps consistently. So my prejudice is not without some
substance.
Just be careful about putting all your eggs in one basket. The merits of these 'older' techniques are to 'recent'to be evaluated on their own merits and/or in contrast to approaches developed in the last 30 years.
What can they tell us about Kerry's conduct in vietnam, motivation to run for president and his 'inner ' world ingeneral. We live in 'psychological times' and folks today ,in the west at least, are interested in theirrelationships (and how to survive them)............

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sea goddess
Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #92 - on: 23.06.2008 at 22:41 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 23.06.2008 at 19:21 [UT+1]:
Internet argument is just like wanking off. It feels good to the person doing it, but the rest of us are madeuncomfortable by having to watch.
Hermes is well known on this forum as a wanker.

Posts: 2019
Gender:oh my gosh, judy anne I haven't had a laugh out loud like this in years.

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Patrick Watson

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #93 - on: 24.06.2008 at 01:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 23.06.2008 at 20:47 [UT+1]:

The 'myth of progress' is often cited by the traditionalists, such as zoller and the coming of the scientific revolution. If you look at
Ptolemy's thoughts on the astrology and psychology of Epilepsy we have come a long way!
My view on all this , for what it's worth, is what's the evidence. We recently had a discussion here on the Nasser 'under one sky' bookwhich if you don't know features various techniques/authors reading a blind chart. Including schmidt (hellenistic) and hand (with his
modified medieval approach) and a couple of vedic's.
The only person who was able to 'read' this character and describe the type of events she was likely to experience with much success was
the psychological astrologer (evelyn roberts). We could do with a few more books of this nature to see who/what comes up trumps
consistently. So my prejudice is not without some substance.
Just be careful about putting all your eggs in one basket. The merits of these 'older' techniques are to 'recent' to be evaluated on theirown merits and/or in contrast to approaches developed in the last 30 years.
What can they tell us about Kerry's conduct in vietnam, motivation to run for president and his 'inner ' world in general. We live in'psychological times' and folks today ,in the west at least, are interested in their relationships (and how to survive them)............

I am aware of the book, and in fact there was a discussion about it involving the author/compiler over on
Myspace where some of the details about how it was done were revealed, about how Schmidt had put off doing
his part until the 11th hour and how it affected his go at it, etc. And respectfully, you did not address yourindulgence in the myth of progress but belittled it and evaded addressing it. If I were you I'd keep an open
mind and engage yourself with the material before dismissing it. The ancient traditions of astrology will become
the norm in the near future, and it is the new age/psychological astrology of the past several decades that will
have to adapt or change drastically in order to stay viable. We also live in a society of instant gratification, andpeople want answers. Will people want the hard fast answers of when and what from astrology or a vague
incoherent rambling about expanding your consciousness? It seems people have become so enamored with theperipherals and more specualtive areas of astrology (psychological anlaysis, past lives) that it has beenforgotten or maybe thought not even possible that astrology can also account for some hard facts of people's
lives pretty concretely. I was asked a few posts earlier to provide some examples of how some of these oldtechniques work, and I hope to get something together soon. But if it's not what you're interested in, thendifferent strokes.
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Lady Christine
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #94 - on: 24.06.2008 at 08:26 [UT+1] »Quote from sea goddess on 23.06.2008 at 22:41 [UT+1]:
Quote from judyanne on 23.06.2008 at 19:21 [UT+1]:

Internet argument is just like wanking off. It feels good to the person doing it, but the rest of us are
made uncomfortable by having to watch.
Hermes is well known on this forum as a wanker.

oh my gosh, judy anne I haven't had a laugh out loud like this in years.

Sorry, I just had to second that! Great correlation!
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Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #95 - on: 24.06.2008 at 08:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 24.06.2008 at 01:58 [UT+1]:
I am aware of the book, and in fact there was a discussion about it involving the author/compiler over on Myspace where some of thedetails about how it was done were revealed, about how Schmidt had put off doing his part until the 11th hour and how it affected his go
at it, etc. And respectfully, you did not address your indulgence in the myth of progress but belittled it and evaded addressing it. If I wereyou I'd keep an open mind and engage yourself with the material before dismissing it. The ancient traditions of astrology will become thenorm in the near future, and it is the new age/psychological astrology of the past several decades that will have to adapt or change
drastically in order to stay viable. We also live in a society of instant gratification, and people want answers. Will people want the hard
fast answers of when and what from astrology or a vague incoherent rambling about expanding your consciousness? It seems people havebecome so enamored with the peripherals and more specualtive areas of astrology (psychological anlaysis, past lives) that it has beenforgotten or maybe thought not even possible that astrology can also account for some hard facts of people's lives pretty concretely. I was
asked a few posts earlier to provide some examples of how some of these old techniques work, and I hope to get something togethersoon. But if it's not what you're interested in, then different strokes.

Nicely put Patrick.

Charles,
Somewhere back on this thread, I read you asking if you had "conceded" enough? I don't think this should
ever be neccessary in a forum.
This reminds me of when I was teaching, and the school district was arguing back and forth about "Whole
Language" vs. "Skills and Drills" approaches. I stood up, and asked "why can't we blend them together?"
Surely there is some benefit to be found with both schools of thought? Even when we don't feel inclined toenroll.
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?

Charlie Charles
2nd« Reply #96 - on: 24.06.2008 at 10:37 [UT+1] »Ex Member

Quote:I am aware of the book, and in fact there was a discussion about it involving the author/compiler over on Myspace where some of thedetails about how it was done were revealed, about how Schmidt had put off doing his part until the 11th hour and how it affected his go
at it, etc. And respectfully, you did not address your indulgence in the myth of progress but belittled it and evaded addressing it. If I wereyou I'd keep an open mind and engage yourself with the material before dismissing it. The ancient traditions of astrology will become thenorm in the near future, and it is the new age/psychological astrology of the past several decades that will have to adapt or change
drastically in order to stay viable. We also live in a society of instant gratification, and people want answers. Will people want the hard
fast answers of when and what from astrology or a vague incoherent rambling about expanding your consciousness? It seems people havebecome so enamored with the peripherals and more specualtive areas of astrology (psychological anlaysis, past lives) that it has beenforgotten or maybe thought not even possible that astrology can also account for some hard facts of people's lives pretty concretely. I was
asked a few posts earlier to provide some examples of how some of these old techniques work, and I hope to get something togethersoon. But if it's not what you're interested in, then different strokes.

Schmidt put the case in his 'go' that he would need more time and space to be able to use his 'techniques'
adequately. So he kind of opted out of the process in presenting an abridged version.
Psychologiocal astrology has as much similarity with what is labelled new age astrology as hellenistic does. Verydifferent beasts. You should look into it at some point it's a lot more respectful of the 'tradition' than is often
appreciated.
I think you misinterpreted my response to your citing of the 'myth of progress'. How would you define progress
astrologically or otherwise? Is Project Hinsight understandable in relation to JG dynamic of the early 80's?

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Patrick Watson

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #97 - on: 24.06.2008 at 19:28 [UT+1] »Well you said earlier "if these techniques were so successful why did they disappear?" Successful techniques do
not always guarantee their survival through the ages, to say otherwise is a bit fallacious. It's often what is mostpopular and widespread that survives, or preserved in some other way. For example, out of the pantheon ofHellenistic astrologers, our source for the Zodiacal Releasing technique comes from just one astrologer, Vettius
Valens, who said he got it from an astrologer called Abram, for whom there is no extant record. Either we havelost all accounts where all the other authors might have mentioned this technique, or it was only known about
by a certain few. This might seem to be the case, since Valens essentially makes the reader swear secrecy, notto impart astrological knowledge to the "unintiated", and basically threatens the reader with a curse if you
break the oath. Who knows what kind of formalities astrologers might have had among themselves, like somekind of astrological Freemason society or something.
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Jonathan
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #98 - on: 24.06.2008 at 19:38 [UT+1] »I think that was kind of in vogue at the time. Like the 12 keys of the resurrection by Basil Valentine. Something
must be really valuable if it is to be guarded so devoutly and all that stuff.

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Charlie Charles 2nd

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #99 - on: 24.06.2008 at 22:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Patrick Watson on 24.06.2008 at 19:28 [UT+1]:
Well you said earlier "if these techniques were so successful why did they disappear?" Successful techniques do not always guarantee theirsurvival through the ages, to say otherwise is a bit fallacious. It's often what is most popular and widespread that survives, or preserved insome other way. For example, out of the pantheon of Hellenistic astrologers, our source for the Zodiacal Releasing technique comes fromjust one astrologer, Vettius Valens, who said he got it from an astrologer called Abram, for whom there is no extant record. Either we havelost all accounts where all the other authors might have mentioned this technique, or it was only known about by a certain few. This mightseem to be the case, since Valens essentially makes the reader swear secrecy, not to impart astrological knowledge to the "unintiated",
and basically threatens the reader with a curse if you break the oath. Who knows what kind of formalities astrologers might have had
among themselves, like some kind of astrological Freemason society or something.

As you say 'who knows' some of the history is very cloudy. Curses, mis-translations, lost in transit, hostility andso on.
If you like i'll give you a chart for you to try out this or other Hellensitic timing techniques - not mine though!

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #100 - on: 24.06.2008 at 22:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 24.06.2008 at 22:32 [UT+1]:...
If you like i'll give you a chart for you to try out this or other Hellensitic timing techniques - not mine though!

Bit of a wimp, Charlie, for one who strikes such bold poses.
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Charlie Charles 2nd

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #101 - on: 24.06.2008 at 23:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 24.06.2008 at 22:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from Charlie Charles 2nd on 24.06.2008 at 22:32 [UT+1]:...
If you like i'll give you a chart for you to try out this or other Hellensitic timing techniques - not mine though!

Bit of a wimp, Charlie, for one who strikes such bold poses.

rational poses - no 'events' in my life!
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Eddy Bharani
Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #102 - on: 25.06.2008 at 08:37 [UT+1] »Perhaps Ptolemy added the climatological stuff but I still think that the Babylonians before him had the cardinalsigns in mind. Cancer was the norhternmost sign with summersolstice reaching the highest point. Jupiter was
related to Marduk, (one of the main gods and the 'Zeus' of the Babylonians) so 'earned' the highest point. Mars
was related to Nergal, the god of death (rather than Saturn) and ruled the underworld. mars would get the
wintersolstice sign Capricorn for there the sun is longest under the horizon and therefore in the underworld
according to flat earth based mythology. So perhaps no real climate issue, but this explanation would still meanthat in Australia etc. it should be reversed.
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GoUtopians

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #103 - on: 25.06.2008 at 23:26 [UT+1] »Charlie Charles the 2nd,>>All astrologers need to know about the fundamentals and, even though it might not be to your 'taste', it's
part of the curriculum.>>
To me, as far as astrology is concerned, "fundamentals" means the stuff that operates in a manner not specificto any culture, time period, or particular thinker or school of thought (after all, the planets were here way
before we were, and Mars, for example, has always been Mars, both in Ancient Greece and now). But there isno sense in debating over the meanings of words. What I'm going to go ahead and ask here is, can you giveme:
1. a succinct description of what "the fundamentals" are, using the terminology generally used by those who are
well-versed in it, and 2. some links leading to good online sources of information ?
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seahorse12
Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #104 - on: 25.06.2008 at 23:34 [UT+1] »Blunt and naive, I don't get it. I thought exaltations were 2 back. So why wouldn't Jupiter be exalted by
LIBRA!?!?!?!
(sorry if there was a clearer explanation of it here, but I started but couldn't read through all the posts, but thisWOULD partially explain, perhaps, a long-help query for me as to why so many Cancers have crossed my sag
path!

)

Sea
Posts: 935

Quote from vertex on 19.06.2008 at 02:10 [UT+1]:
Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer? What characteristics of Cancer makes it exalt Jupiter?

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Charlie Charles 2nd

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #105 - on: 26.06.2008 at 00:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Lady Christine on 24.06.2008 at 08:37 [UT+1]:
Quote from Patrick Watson on 24.06.2008 at 01:58 [UT+1]:
I am aware of the book, and in fact there was a discussion about it involving the author/compiler over on Myspace wheresome of the details about how it was done were revealed, about how Schmidt had put off doing his part until the 11th hourand how it affected his go at it, etc. And respectfully, you did not address your indulgence in the myth of progress but
belittled it and evaded addressing it. If I were you I'd keep an open mind and engage yourself with the material before
dismissing it. The ancient traditions of astrology will become the norm in the near future, and it is the newage/psychological astrology of the past several decades that will have to adapt or change drastically in order to stay
viable. We also live in a society of instant gratification, and people want answers. Will people want the hard fast answersof when and what from astrology or a vague incoherent rambling about expanding your consciousness? It seems people
have become so enamored with the peripherals and more specualtive areas of astrology (psychological anlaysis, past lives)that it has been forgotten or maybe thought not even possible that astrology can also account for some hard facts ofpeople's lives pretty concretely. I was asked a few posts earlier to provide some examples of how some of these oldtechniques work, and I hope to get something together soon. But if it's not what you're interested in, then different
strokes.

Nicely put Patrick.

Charles,
Somewhere back on this thread, I read you asking if you had "conceded" enough? I don't think this should ever be neccessary in a forum.

This reminds me of when I was teaching, and the school district was arguing back and forth about "Whole Language" vs. "Skills and Drills"
approaches. I stood up, and asked "why can't we blend them together?" Surely there is some benefit to be found with both schools ofthought? Even when we don't feel inclined to enroll.

I don't think it was me talking about conceding.????
as to blending, in my view the better astrologers tend to try and use the more persuasive/intelligent techniquesof various 'schools/periods'. Hand is the obvious example here.
although bear in mind some charts are going to lend themselves more to seeing things in certain ways andthen we have what psychologists call the primary and recency effects, namely you remember/ stick with yourfirst and last impressions!
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Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?

Charlie Charles
2nd« Reply #106 - on: 26.06.2008 at 00:33 [UT+1] »Ex Member

Quote from GoUtopians on 25.06.2008 at 23:26 [UT+1]:
Charlie Charles the 2nd,>>All astrologers need to know about the fundamentals and, even though it might not be to your 'taste', it's part of the curriculum.>>
To me, as far as astrology is concerned, "fundamentals" means the stuff that operates in a manner not specific to any culture, time
period, or particular thinker or school of thought (after all, the planets were here way before we were, and Mars, for example, has always
been Mars, both in Ancient Greece and now). But there is no sense in debating over the meanings of words. What I'm going to go ahead
and ask here is, can you give me:
1. a succinct description of what "the fundamentals" are, using the terminology generally used by those who are well-versed in it, and 2.
some links leading to good online sources of information ?

Fundamentals was arguably a poor choice. Chronology may be an improvement, as fundamental has
connotations of adhering in a somewhat'blind' way to the original dogma.
I would start with the Project Hindsight site and then explore the responses to these 'discoveries'. Skyscript ispretty good both in terms of articles and the forum they have. This will give you a good overview of someHellenistic ideas and later arabian, medieval and renaissance developments, plus some vedic in the mix.
Astrology has operated in ways quite specific to the time/context it has found itself in i'd argue. The meaning ofMars in contemporary astrology retains it's original quality/meaning but it has 'developed/deepened' over thelast 2,000yrs.
This 'return to the source' which we have seen over the last 20 or so yrs has revealed that the what,who andwhere of the 'source' is still quite 'mysterious'. Robert Schmidt has suggested, after all these re-translations,that some kind of original system exists ,system of Hermes, which was 'lost'. I don't know enough about thisyet to have formed a view, others apparently think this is a bit speculative.
Is this succinct enough?, as to leads my computer blew up recently and i lost all my bookmarks. But the Robert
Zoller site is another useful resource from memory.
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Everett

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #107 - on: 02.08.2009 at 07:06 [UT+1] »I just wanna say thatthat i always wondered why i always befriended people who were low to society like geeks, losers, handicap. ialways try to help out those people out of pity and i just want to boost their ego.. just out of my purekindness.
and i was searching this website about

F in dand this popped up, "There is a nurturing aspect associated with this position and you are the typewho is always looking out for the little guy. "here's the website
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/insigns-jupiter.html
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Ela ElaEx Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #108 - on: 02.08.2009 at 19:05 [UT+1] »I have Jupiter in Cancer but retrograde . How can I use Jupiter retrograde in Cancer ?
thx

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MaryB

Ex Member

Re: Why is Jupiter exalted in Cancer?
« Reply #109 - on: 11.08.2009 at 05:26 [UT+1] »Rx F not so much worry, just more inward. The house is important as well.
Jupiter in d for me is sixth/seventh, so westward orientation.
I use this with people, to share growth, boundless learning, nuturing, and at home with nature.
I turn people on to nature
Jupiter in Cancer say fourth house, What a lovely home.
first house, hail fellow we are friends. warmth someone owns as is eastern orientaton
Mine in sixth seventh and is not always my own, it is shared
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