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Grand Cross?! (Read 385 times)

aruariandantz
MemberGrand Cross?!
« on: 28.12.2015 at 01:21 [UT] »Hey there...
I was reading about Grand Crosses and how TERRIBLE they are when I came to find that I may have it in myown chart. I felt desperate. I know my life hasnt been the easiest but also not so hard and reading all thesethings about constant frustration and challenges and illness and margination and who the heck knows made me
feel just desperate. It made me think that very bad things will come. Why do people even write these things?
I want to know if a Grand Cross can involve Chiron, which is in a weak square to my Moon (6.27 S), and to
Posts: 244

Pluto (5.76 A)....
Well I dont really know if I want to know. Maybe it's better to live in ignorance. Or maybe im not mature
enough to process this. It shouldnt affect me so much and I know this post may look desperate but I just readthis about Grand Crosses and I feel it doesnt correspond to me! I dont see it in my life and my fear is that thismeans it will come. I dont feel this is mine!
Of course we are all humans here and there are as many opinions as colors exist but I don't know.
Im just gonna stop writing... Sorry for this crazy post.
Good night!

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IP LoggedWaybreadMember

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #1 - on: 28.12.2015 at 02:50 [UT] »Purists amongst astrologers would consider that you need 4 (or more) solid planets at the corners to have agrand cross. Some would and some wouldn't count Chiron.
So if we consider your horoscope, I would argue that you don't have a grand cross. A beefy T-square, yes.
Then some astrologers believe that the way to handle a beefy T-square is to work on developing the "emptyleg" which puts you back into Chiron territory. I'm not so convinced, as I think this strategy needlessly
generates a kind of grand cross. I think it's better to look at the allies of your T-square, which would beplanets in a trine or sextile relationship to your T-square planets.
Posts: 14740
Gender:

You also have a grand trine in your chart.
Why should you worry about having a grand cross???? This part I don't get. You are not your horoscope. You
are you. You've made it this far in life. Well done.
The horoscope shows a suite of potentials at birth, but it's up to you as to what you make of those potentials.
A horoscope shows challenges likely to face you as you go through life. Everybody faces challenges.
Everybody has some part of their life that goes well.
With transits, a planet that pings on one of your T square (grand cross?) planets will tend to activate all ofthem. Similarly, when two planets are trined, a transiting planet may conjunct one of them and trine the other.
Natal aspects do tend to yoke planets together.
I don't know why some astrologers write doom-and-gloom material. My chart looks like a train wreck, yet as asenior, I think my life actually turned out OK, over all. A sun in Taurus in the 4th house will always be a sun in
Taurus in the 4th house, yet within those parameters, you can choose an empowering way to interpret it and tolive it.

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EJ53-2Ex Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #2 - on: 28.12.2015 at 10:02 [UT] »Although I am an astrology student that would/does consider Chiron to be a valid body in planetary pictures,(imo) the orb here is too wide for an opposition between Saturn and Chiron......making this two Tsquares thatshare a common opposition-issue, rather than a Grand Cross.
Nevertheless though, you might be interested to know that the Huber School of Astrology refer to the Grand
Cross as an Achievement Square and believe "people who have them have great potential, and almost always
achieve their goals. They are able to work very hard and very constantly, with great reliability and rigour, which
gives them security".
[Note : Tsquares/Grand-Crosses contain neither semi-sextile/qcx "thinking" aspects nor sextile/trine "flowing"
aspects....So, people with them tend to (instinctively) act-without-first-stopping-to-think. Hence, the key toovercoming the problems created by these planetary pictures is to (consciously) stop-and-think-beforeacting......For example, before using a wrecking-ball, they should consider the possibility that a small childmight be playing behind the about-to-be-demolished wall (semi-sextile/qcx), and take time-out to confirm
there is not (sextile/trine).]Back to top
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #3 - on: 28.12.2015 at 15:09 [UT] »Quote from EJ53-2 on 28.12.2015 at 10:02 [UT]:
Although I am an astrology student that would/does consider Chiron to be a valid body in planetary pictures, (imo) the orb here is too
wide for an opposition between Saturn and Chiron...... making this two T-squares that share a common

Posts: 6820
Gender:opposition-issue, rather than a Grand Cross.

You have mentioned something that has sometimes raised afor me.
Not so much as to whether Chiron aspects are valid, but whether two oppositions between four planets arenecessary to make up what is called a 'Grand Cross'. Two separate T-squares would suggest a disconnection ofideas between them somewhere.
I've always referred to the grand cross as an analogy of the sails of the windmill that get things moving. Yet,
logically, if the sails aren't structurely joined, there would be a weight shift imbalance and they couldn't move inunison, could they???
In the example shown, could one say that it is Moon that keeps things moving together by its reaction to theworld around it, yet Sun that becomes aware of the effect of the imbalance of the 4th planet because it is notaspected to it??
In modern day, the tri-sail-mill is more apparent everywhere. Does that mean that the trine will become more
influential as an active aspect .
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aruariandantz
Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #4 - on: 28.12.2015 at 17:53 [UT] »Thanks a lot to you all. You calmed me down
Waybread, what I wouldnt like of having this aspect is to feel so doomed. Im working a lot now to dis-cover myunconscious patterns and in general myself and my story. If this aspect works as people say around I would feellike anything I do in order to improve is useless because another thing will come up. It can be a path to great
success but I dont care, I just want to be in peace with myself. I think now im getting very close to the root of
my story and why I am as I am. If i get to end this process now I dont see why I should have more problemson this área - my self esteem. Astrology did help me find out about my story but I think that that should be its
Posts: 244

purpose: to help. Everything can be solved and transformed. But far from that FUNDAMENTAL function people
write on the name of Astrology's about others' unmutable future and disgrace. There was someone saying thatpeople with Grand Cross arent public figures because they are marginated from society because of theirirreparable and sad life. I know it's me who felt hurted and it's my "fault" but how is someone supposed to feel
when reading this? Maybe Everything i read affected me so much because of this phase of self discovering im
going through.

EJ53-2 and Friesiangal, so as far as I have read there must be two oppositions to have a Grand Cross... And I
have one. Fries, you are claming this fact or questioning if this is a need or not?

Thanks again and sorry again
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thelivingsky

Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #5 - on: 28.12.2015 at 19:23 [UT] »Gemtau,I agree with previous posters that some would not consider your chart as having a grand cross. I am leary ofincluding Chiron because we are finding so many TNO's and asteroids that astrologers are now using that toPosts: 1419

consider them all makes an already complex science so overwhelming with aspects on the birth chart as tobecome incomprehensible. If we include them all and newer ones eventually everyone will have a grand trine
and a grand square. It creates a dilemma to say the least.
Having said that, your chart shows some wonderful aspects that will serve you in meeting the challenges thesquares bring. A p F and A tri O usually bring opportunity and luck and optimism. maybe the luck andopportunities are just a manifestation of the energy of the optimism? Many in "the Law of Attraction" school
would say so.
IMO there are worst things than a grand square or a t-square although these do bring challenges- but challenge
and conflict is the catalysts for creativity. A chart with a grand trine that has no conflict to create motivation orvery weak placements and a weak ruler is likely worse. I also think charts where there are many aspects where
the planets are all tied up with each other are "powerhouse" charts. People with these charts generally achievemuch and become very wise unless planets are poorly placed by sign.
I agree with Waybread about the traditional interpretations that label things as "malefic" or negative. There
really are no inherently negatives or bad things in charts - challenging maybe, bringing complexity into the life,
but not bad.
Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

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IP LoggedWaybreadMember

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #6 - on: 28.12.2015 at 21:06 [UT] »Thanks, Gemtau. I just realized that EJ is right. Even if we were to count Chiron as valid for a grand cross, it isout of orb for an opposition with Saturn. I once got into a debate about whether angles counted like planets,
and looked up a lot of sources, all of which said that the GC is a relationship between planets. So you're off thehook on this one.
You do have a couple of aspects that can confer self-esteem issues: Saturn square sun and Chiron square
moon. The sun shows your identity or sense of self. The moon shows your emotional nature. Saturn canshow where and how we feel inadequate, frustrated, or just generally in the wrong. Chiron gives the emotional
wounds that won't heal. Neither aspect means there is anything objectively the matter with you: just that you
are apt to be very hard on yourself.
Posts: 14740
Gender:That sprinkling of quintile aspects in your chart suggests that you actually are ambitious, so it may feel as
though you have big dreams that are too hard to achieve.
Both Saturn and Chiron can be assets if we learn what they are in our lives to teach. Saturn teaches patience,
hard work, and getting by on very little. Chiron promises that if we process and learn from our emotional
wounds, that we have the capacity to experience great wisdom and compassion from them.
Your chart also has some super aspects to it, with those trines to your sun. Truth be told, some things in yourlife do flow easily for you. With Mercury in its own sign of Gemini you are probably bright and have a vivid
imagination that you can use to advantage. Just for example.
Another member once posted that squares in the chart seem correlated with the careers of people who arereally good at their jobs. This makes sense, because squares are what push us into doing more and becoming
better at what we do. Trines are a lot more pleasant, but because of their sense of ease, they may content uswith sitting back on the sofa while time slips by.
Please keep in mind that astrology works well as a tool for self-awareness, not as some kind of externallyimposed doom. What do you like about your chart? Where does it describe you in a positive way?

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aruariandantz

Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #7 - on: 28.12.2015 at 22:05 [UT] »Thank you very much thelivingsky and again Waybread. Your messages are really helpful!
Waybread, I can be very hard to myself and I think in this example it is the more than GREAT power of
Astrology. It shows me something that could be unconcious - and it makes it concious. But the thing is that
this "hardness" I apply to myself doesn't come out of the blue. The power of Astrology for me is to indicate,but not to solve (or at least I don't know to apply it as this kind of tool). Now I'm tracing where does thishardness come from and again I have these hints that Astrology provided me: Saturn as a representative of thePosts: 244

Father (if you are born night time, I read). I am going to keep exploring to understand this hardness and use it
in a different sense or stop using it (when the unconscious pattern becomes concious it stops driving you).
What I like about my chart is Scorpio in the 10th House. I'm a film student and I always considered Film as a
powerful transformative and therapeutic tool. I want my cinema to be as intense as Scorpio... Also I think thatthe trine of Neptune to my Sun and Moon can help me to have the cinematic Vision and imagination - as well
as Uranus can. I like the influence of Saturn also, squaring my Sun and Scorpio opposing my Moon/Sun - itmakes me improve and try to reach a profundity that Gemini could skip. I like living intensely and experiencing
deep emotions. I also like my Taurus Moon, and touching, a lot. Feeling closer to people - opening and opening
my emotions and my heart. Make real connections with people. I like honesty and integrity.... I also like the fire
influence on my chart, and the importance of the body and the experience of matter with Taurus in the Moon:
dancing, walking on nature, enjoying matter... I don't know yet how to work on my Chiron, I guess it will come,but I always wanted to be an actor - a profession for Leo's, where my Chiron is - and I feel I have something tosolve with the qualities of Leo. They are also related to self-esteem so I guess everything is connected.
I pretty much like my chart, even the hard aspects. They can be annoying or hard some times but they help me
value the richness of Life, and they help me to improve. But I tend to take very personally the negative things I
read around about independent aspects that could be on my chart - this may be a Saturn squaring issue: it'sanother way to be hard to myself. I read that Saturn on the First House makes people sad and serious. I'm not
any of those - I can have sad times but I consider myself cheerful and most of the times optimistic.
Thank you very much, really.... !

Hope you all have a good day!!
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Friesiangal
Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #8 - on: 29.12.2015 at 00:02 [UT] »Quote from Gemtau on 28.12.2015 at 17:53 [UT]:EJ53-2 and Friesiangal, so as far as I have read there must be two oppositions to have a Grand Cross... And I have one. Fries, you

are claming this fact or questioning if this is a need or not?
Posts: 6820
Gender:I'm questioning whether a grand cross has to include the two oppostions in order to be called it.
To all:I spent a while googling the noted specifics of a grand cross.
Only Café Astrology's 'Aspect Patterns' mentioned any difference and made a distinction between a Grand
Square and Grand Cross. The 'square' does not include the oppositions because of wide orbs; the 'cross' does.
The Grand Square seemed to be less frustrating or intense than the Grand Cross because of the lack of
opposing planetary functions. No major site mentioned a 'Grand Cross' with only one opposition.
As Saturn represents all manner of authority and responsibility (figures), it would be interesting to learn if, in
the future yet to come, there is a question of choice to be made. Whether Gemtau follows a (conditioned)
behaviour pattern which inhibits his creative Leo talent from expressing itself in the manner he seeks(opposition effect with Chiron) for it; OR, that he takes responsibility for/upon himself, is able to break awayfrom ties that bind in order to follow his own lead, express his talent in his own creative and desired manner,without any difficulties arising with which he has to live as consequence in achieving it (no opposition effect to
Chiron).

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EJ53-2Ex Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #9 - on: 29.12.2015 at 08:46 [UT] »Quote from Friesiangal on 28.12.2015 at 15:09 [UT]:
Quote from EJ53-2 on 28.12.2015 at 10:02 [UT]:
Although I am an astrology student that would/does consider Chiron to be a valid body in planetary pictures, (imo) theorb here is too wide for an opposition between Saturn and Chiron...... making this two T-squares that share

a common opposition-issue, rather than a Grand Cross.

You have mentioned something that has sometimes raised afor me.

Not so much as to whether Chiron aspects are valid, but whether two oppositions between four planets are necessary to make up what iscalled a 'Grand Cross'. Two separate T-squares would suggest a disconnection of ideas between them somewhere.
I've always referred to the grand cross as an analogy of the sails of the windmill that get things moving. Yet, logically, if the sails aren't
structurely joined, there would be a weight shift imbalance and they couldn't move in unison, could they???
In the example shown, could one say that it is Moon that keeps things moving together by its reaction to the world around it, yet Sun that
becomes aware of the effect of the imbalance of the 4th planet because it is not aspected to it??
In modern day, the tri-sail-mill is more apparent everywhere. Does that mean that the trine will become more influential as an active
aspect .

Quote from Friesiangal on 29.12.2015 at 00:02 [UT]:
Quote from Gemtau on 28.12.2015 at 17:53 [UT]:EJ53-2 and Friesiangal, so as far as I have read there must be two oppositions to have a Grand Cross... And I have one.

Fries, you are claming this fact or questioning if this is a need or not?

I'm questioning whether a grand cross has to include the two oppostions in order to be called it.
To all:I spent a while googling the noted specifics of a grand cross.
Only Café Astrology's 'Aspect Patterns' mentioned any difference and made a distinction between a Grand Square and Grand Cross. The'square' does not include the oppositions because of wide orbs; the 'cross' does. The Grand Square seemed to be less frustrating or intensethan the Grand Cross because of the lack of opposing planetary functions. No major site mentioned a 'Grand Cross' with only one
opposition.
As Saturn represents all manner of authority and responsibility (figures), it would be interesting to learn if, in the future yet to come,there is a question of choice to be made. Whether Gemtau follows a (conditioned) behaviour pattern which inhibits his creative Leo talentfrom expressing itself in the manner he seeks (opposition effect with Chiron) for it; OR, that he takes responsibility for/upon himself, isable to break away from ties that bind in order to follow his own lead, express his talent in his own creative and desired manner, without
any difficulties arising with which he has to live as consequence in achieving it (no opposition effect to Chiron).

Using planetary picture interpretations seems (to me) to be akin to purchasing an off-the-peg "one-size-fits-all"garment - in that it saves time/money; will never be a perfect fit on anyone but (with further investment oftime/money) can be modified to achieve an acceptable fit for one specific wearer.
So, the off-the-peg cook-book interpretation of an exact-orbs Grand Cross containing four squares and two
oppositions requires less skill to modify "acceptably" than does a non-exact-orbs planetary picture consisting offour squares and one opposition......And, (imo) an uninitiated recipient of an astrological report/analysis thatreferred to the second figure as a Grand Cross is not being correctly guided/advised by its author.

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EJ53-2Ex Member

Re: Grand Cross?!
« Reply #10 - on: 29.12.2015 at 09:29 [UT] »Quote:The Grand Square seemed to be less frustrating or intense than the Grand Cross because of the lack of opposing planetary functions.

With oppositions, we have the opportunity to clearly see the problem (in ourself) reflected back by the other whereas, with squares. we are not able to clearly see the problem ourself. Similarly, with oppositions, thirdparty observers of our negative interaction with "the other" will tend to tell us if/when they believe we are in
the wrong (because they see us as being "open to valid criticism") - whereas, with squares, we are perceived as
being "not open to criticism" (so third-party observers tend to not give feedback on our negative interactions
with others).
Thus, a Grand Square will be less frustrating than the Grand Cross - because the (reduced) one-opposition-only
feedback from others makes the person less likely to question the four squares/"blind-spots" message thathe/she is "in the right".
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