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Can you pick out the murderer from the writer? (Read 1718 times)

Gene Ray
MemberCan you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« on: 13.08.2007 at 22:36 [UT+1] »Hello allAt my site, The Astrologers Forum, we have been doing mystery charts for a few years now.

Posts: 3329
Gender:

The two attached charts are progressed to the day of a murder of one or more people.
Can you pick out the murderer's chart and tell us why? There is one hint. The murderer was adopted and did
not know until later in life that he was.
Only one rule: Do not cheat and Google the information to see if you can find out. That’s not fair and say's tome that you are not confident in your abilities. If you happen to know the answer already because you havethe data stored, please do not participate.
I invite everyone to participate especially those who have a lot of experience. Ed , Spiral, Achernar, Caitriona
and anyone else who cares to.
Best wishes
Gene Ray

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Gene Ray

Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #1 - on: 13.08.2007 at 22:38 [UT+1] »andPosts: 3329
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MataHari7
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #2 - on: 14.08.2007 at 06:39 [UT+1] »I'd say the second chart, that is, the first murderer. He has moon in the 4th house, ascendant at a criticaldegree, and hard aspects to it(AC)(moon, venus and TN). Also, progressed MC at a critical degree. Uranus andTN sitting on the AC by transit would indicate a shake-up in personal identity.
Progressed moon(in cancer!) is stirring things up with tranisting neptune(deception) in the 2nd house of selfworth.
Transiting saturn is sitting on the natal MC of reputation.
I must say, this is difficult, because I can see signs of it in the other guy's chart.
(I hope I got the transits and progressing planets right, because I can't see the chart while I'm posting all of
this.)
I'm really just a novice, so I am not the best one to answer this, but I can't resist a mystery!
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IP LoggedAstro Healer

Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #3 - on: 14.08.2007 at 07:03 [UT+1] »I am going to say the first.
The Ne=4th which I would think would show the detachment from his parents.It's a mystery. Plus Ne on anangle is usually found in many murderers.
I am tired so I will look again at the chart when I am not tired and have time to study both.
Posts: 1639
Gender:I was just going through the charts of murderers as they have been a fascination as to see what their charts
reveal.
Either chart looks like a possibilty actually, Ne/Sa in the 12th does not look all that good,but I have not lookedat the house rulerhips or anything yet.
Having the charts in my system would make themm easier to read as I could not tell where the MC's are .

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Kathleen Rose
Harmon

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #4 - on: 14.08.2007 at 07:05 [UT+1] »MemberInteresting excercise, Gene!
My guess would be the second chart (possible Killer #1).
My reasons are that this person appears pretty obviously disturbed and very dangerous. Mars-Mercury in the
8th are trine Saturn-Neptune in the 12th and Pluto is at the midpoint of all 4. In addition, Chiron squares that
Saturn-Neptune conjunction from the 3rd and makes a tight yod with Mars-Mercury and Pluto. This is personwith a hair-trigger temper, some severe psychological wounds who is morbidly depressed and dwells on
thoughts of death.

Posts: 700
Gender:Also, Saturn has just crossed the MC at the same time Uranus has crossed the Asc and is square the moon on
the date of the murder, setting up a grand cross with Moon at the IC and Venus near the descendant, so I
would assume the victim(s) were female. Uranus ruling the 4th, the home/family of birth---possibly learning thetruth about his parentage happened about this same time. In any event, Uranus would heighten instability andexcitability. Saturn ruling the third, culminating, this person's mental state is made public. And, progressed
Mars at 7 Cancer being semi-square to Pluto would have made him especially irritable and aggressive at thistime.
The other chart just doesn't seem to have the same kind of indicators of an event like this, although it looks
like the other person may have lost their father recently, they probably didn't do him in themselves

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cynthpoet

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #5 - on: 14.08.2007 at 07:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Kathleen Rose Harmon on 14.08.2007 at 07:05 [UT+1]:
Interesting excercise, Gene!
My guess would be the second chart (possible Killer #1).
My reasons are that this person appears pretty obviously disturbed and very dangerous. Mars-Mercury in the 8th are trine Saturn-Neptune
in the 12th and Pluto is at the midpoint of all 4. In addition, Chiron squares that Saturn-Neptune conjunction from the 3rd and makes atight yod with Mars-Mercury and Pluto. This is person with a hair-trigger temper, some severe psychological wounds who is morbidly
depressed and dwells on thoughts of death.
Also, Saturn has just crossed the MC at the same time Uranus has crossed the Asc and is square the moon on the date of the murder,
setting up a grand cross with Moon at the IC and Venus near the descendent, so I would assume the victim(s) were female. Uranus rulingthe 4th, the home/family of birth---possibly learning the truth about his parentage happened about this same time. In any event, Uranus
would heighten instability and excitability. Saturn ruling the third, culminating, this person's mental state is made public. And, progressed
Mars at 7 Cancer being semi-square to Pluto would have made him especially irritable and aggressive at this time.
The other chart just doesn't seem to have the same kind of indicators of an event like this, although it looks like the other person may
have lost their father recently, they probably didn't do him in themselves

I agree with you on that, Kathleen. All that activity (plus the PoF) in the eighth house points to some macabre
fascination with death--perhaps a compulsion?
The first chart has a vacant eighth house ruled by Aquarius, and containing Pisces as well. This does not set off
the sort of alarms the second chart does--eighth ruled by Gemini. I also noticed the Yod in the second chart,
pointing to Chiron in Capricorn/Third house. Problems communicating, ending in tragedy--the two legs being
Pluto and Mars/Mercury conjunction (!) either of which could not end up in a good way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #6 - on: 14.08.2007 at 07:32 [UT+1] »I hope tht the PoF in the 8th is not an over riding factor as that is where mine is.

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #7 - on: 14.08.2007 at 09:01 [UT+1] »I did not go through the 2nd chart ,but I did get too think about the 1st. I do not know weather I am right in
my decision and could have spent more time when I am not tired.
The one thing that does throw me off is the Water signs on the main angles 1st\10th. I have these and cannot
think of killing a flea.

Posts: 1639
Gender:This 1st subject though is driven by hate,He has a power complex which is not shown to the public untilcaught.He might appear meek,but underlying that is a deep seated Power complex which he wants control inthe sex act.
I spent about an hour on this and the more I think of who this is the more I see he has major problems. If heis the victim I would not be surprised either as the MP's could denote him being the victim instead of the killer
also,but I would think that would showup in the 7th instead of the 1st.
Chart#1
Asc=Can---Ruler Moon 10th-Aries Violent Sign and at an AP
MP Ma\Pl=6 Can
MP Ma\Sa=25 Gem Conj. Venus
MP Sn\Ma 5 Can
These MP’s are also conjunct the asc/NN which might mean they shall be driven with hate or cretivity in thisincarnation.
Two Violent MP’s found conjunct Asc.
A violent outlook on life.They think and dream of murder.
MP Ma\Sa=25 Gem Conj. Venus might mean they secretly love violent sex.They may also be Gay or Bi-Sexual.
Their sexual orientatoion might be why they murder. They feel restricted in finding the right or a suitablepartner .
Ma Gem is Sq Me Virgo 11th-3rd.Energy to write?
Ne is on an angle and a Parental house which can denote the person is lacking knowledge of their biologicalparents.
There are many afflicted planets in this chart and the other chart even though there are many planets in the
8th they are not afflicted.
The formation in the chart also has a Bundle with Ma/Ne at the ends with the MP between them Sn/Pl 2nd thehouse of values. Leo making their values very important.They value Pl-Sex\Control Leo-Power Sun-Ego which issq. 5th cusp.
Sa in the first can mean responsibility when young and the feeling of being restricted by it.That and the outlook
of Violence shown by the MP’s conjunct the 1st could be a very hateful disposition esp. if they feel their values
are being ignored.They are not getting what they want in life or feel threatened or a scapegoat.
Pluto rules the 5th which can mean they value the sex act very highly.Pluto squares that angle using Placidus
House system.
If they are the murderer then it shall all be made public as everything shall come to light from Mn=MC..
I think they equate the sex act with Power-Leo and Death-Pkuto, They are control killers.He might write about
it also.
NN squre Mn they are not well liked by others.They are just not accepted by their fellow man. Might be a loner.
Might have had to fight for recognition also.
Ur/Ve 12th can mean the person is a closet Homosexual or Bi Sexual with Multiple partners Gemini.He mightput on an act of being Hetro.. Squared to the Ju/Ne=IC they do have fantasy's which can be perverted also.
Chart #2-I did not get to this chart actually.
I did note the house positions,but there are not many afflicted aspects from 8th to 12th.That makes mw thinkthey might use their energy's more appropriately.
Asc=Virgo---Ruler Me 8th conjunct Ma exact-Exact Trine NeLib 12th
Sn=11Gem 8th
Mn=3AQ Conj. IC trine Ju 5Gem 8th
MP Ma/Pl=21Can 9th Opposite K 3rd
MP Ma/Sa=Pl 21Leo-Conjunct 10th Pl EXACT This is the Midpoint of Death(Interesting)
MP Sn/Pl= 16Can=Ur 9th
MP Sn/Ma=16 Gem 8th which is also the MP of Sn* Astro Healer Ne/Sa conjunct 21Lib 12th op. Ve 27Ar 6th
Mn=NN He will gain attention.
The Transits seem to be a climax of events with the Grand Cross occuring in Fixed signs.
I am going to void the first opinion because he just thinks in violence whereas this guy acts on it.
Both are cases whereas they both have the potential to do harm. The 2nd I think does it.
The first might have the creative spirit instead of the hateful.

I do not see a cancer/Pisces combo having the hate to pullofff murder as much as Mutables. This guy if he is
the murderer is cunning.
The Finger o God formation with the Apex Point being Uranus.He has to find adjustment this energy which is
Ur=MP of Sn/Pl and opposition to K is erratic I bet.No stability for this person where sexual deviance isconcernned.
I have spent enough time on it.Will be interesting to see which it is. The Scorpio Ascendant seems to be thekiller.
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MollyV
Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #8 - on: 14.08.2007 at 09:09 [UT+1] »I think there's a Red Herring in the room, I can smell it.
Oh, heck, I'll play the Contrary anyway; I'm compelled:
1st chart, #2 person, San Antonio birthplace (watch this be a renouned humanitarian)Why:
Posts: 259
Gender:

The hint: Adopted, found out much later.
4, 10th houses natal, empty.
Transiting Chiron crosses MC, in Aries, alone.
====
Walking it around:
Progressed Jupiter transits Mars 11th house: Impulse to act, magnified and Open==
Progressed Mars conjuncts Venus in Gemini, 12th Action on Emotion: Shot through the heart in the dark.
Twice. Wait, 2 planets involved in Gemini: 4 times!
====
Ascendent, NN, Saturn natally in 1st house Cancer. Mother-bound & verrrrry sensitive about it, because she's
not really his motherTransiting Saturn across Sun / Pluto conjunction: Pressssssure...
Transiting Pluto crossing IC exact "Powerful Wow in the 4th"
Transiting North Node conj POF, Scorpio, 5th: "fulfilling destiny"
Transiting Neptune in Sagg, 5th: "Playing out a fantasy"(Hope I didn't transpose my transits for progressions or mix them together, but you can see which things I'mreferring to in the chart... Why do I have such trouble reading this small print without my reading glasses at
3:14 a.m. by TV light?)(Why am I HERE at 3:14 a.m. by TV light, contemplating Unheard-of murders??!!!)
Another mystery chart!!

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IP LoggedDoh-Ray-Me

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #9 - on: 14.08.2007 at 12:11 [UT+1] »At first glance, I'm erring towards posible 2 as the killer, and chart 1 as the writer. Lets see if that changes or
explains why as I waffle through.
Possible killer chart 2:
Sun in Leo - well, they're usually pretty laid back, but when a fire sign gets their knickers in a twist aboutsomething they get pretty fired up, and even sanctimonious. Leo may potentially be bothered about statusissues, personal values and appearances. They can be judgemental & stubborn. What would a sun Leo's motive
for murder be? Serious loss of face? Being made to feel small and insignificant? Losing big time? Dunno - I'm
not a Leo. Maybe it was in self-defence after winding up another sign
AC cancer: Cancer AC could be the critical part, flipping out when their defensive carapiece failed them and leftthem very vulnerable. That could be a whole lot of emotion with nowhere to go. The leo might help withgrounding and good sense. Then again, Cancer & Leo could be given to excesses - mostly about food though.
Male cancer strikes me as having quite a macho image, biting into Yorkie Bars, catching marlin, driving fast or
big vehicles, rugby etc. The Leo cancer man combo might have easily accidentally run someone over in a fast
sports car, but this was moida. Had they had sun cancer, mars aries I'd have expected the murder to beprotecting their friends and family - but this is rising, so protecting the clan is a maybe. Your clue was home &family related which suits cancer male well. Feeling uncomfortably vulnerable and emotional instead of the
man's man, fits with the Leo loss of face theory. THis could be the person who is fuming after public ridicule
on a talk show?
Moon in Aries: This could also fit male macho pride crime of passion. (I'm probably dissing some famous writer
here!). They feel that the matter is very straightforward, black & white. They feel they are right and they feel
hot under the collar and wanting to fight! Never mind the diplomacy and lets dash in!
Mercury in Virgo: There's a possible contrast here between feelings and expression, depending on where they
sit on the Virgo-Pisces line. This person may feel an impatience and anger with their fire sun & moon, but still
manage to sound more calm and collected and rational with their Virgo mercury - irritation when contradicted.
There's also a conrast with the cancer AC here. Mercury could analyse and explain why they did it, but cancer
rising with feeling responses may not want to see anyone anyway and a bad public image is Leo hell.
Jupiter in Virgo: maybe they'll do better selling their memoirs.
Venus in Gemini: Their ex may want to kill *them*, but this is very affable and gregarious usually. There could
be shyness and social withdrawl into private hobbies. A scary Gemini murderer might be the one who collects
stamps or sporting heroes. I suppose there's stalker potential there. It might add a tad to Leonine suncompetitivess. This doesn't fit my profile at all well. With the cancer AC, I see possibilities of a sports fan.
Mars in Gemini: This is more like it! Gemini man loses control over their temper over many small acumulative
hassles. Perhaps mercury's gone retrograde. They drop the coffee on the floor, the sport is cancelled, the car
won't start and their pen has run out...They hate everyday life not going smoothly, keeping them from play.
With Leo's rather odd explanations for things I wouldn't rule out Sutcliffe.
Saturn in Cancer: possessivess, home & family safety, emotional hurt. Don't hit them where they're vulnerable.
(Lunsted mentions another possibilty of feeling a lack of sensitivity or intuition in its being, but there's a cancerAC).
Pluto: Leo sun & pluto.... family experience? working easily in a group, or following a group?
Uranus: Gemini - inventive, ideas generating.
Neptune: Libra - delusions, dreams and intuitions linked to relationships, peace & harmony.

If this is the murderer I think the motive is pride, feeling that they've lost face being made to look foolishpublically. Competitiveness may be ionvolved. There could be posessiveness, so I wouldn't rule out someone
stealing their partner. Family home under threat? The Leo-Cancer castle and Gemini slippers by the fire.
------------------------------------Leo sun would give ambition to make someone perhaps strive to be a famous writer, rather than just writing forthemself. Venus & mars in escapism-loving Gemini, & meticulous, analytical mecury in Virgo would suit writing
as well. The moon in Aries might lend passionate and usefully clear direct feelings. Cancer can be shrewd andperceptive and keen to experience the world. Maybe the sun & AC would mean experiencing life first hand,rather than staying in to reflect upon it, although cancer guys do love home. This writer may write about theirexperiences with pride. Maybe they'd write about macho sports in foreign venues they travelled to, and food.
DRM - nutty beginner dabbler.

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Victor F.
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #10 - on: 14.08.2007 at 12:26 [UT+1] »Hi Gene,Can i try please even as a novice?
The second chart is the one of a writer. Stellium in 8, mercury in his own sign. Mars in 8 is usually a person
who is getting killed. sudden death. (but in America you have death-row, mmm...difficult) Scorpio asc., Pluto
in 10 house of publishing, making good aspects. Fascination about death, good and bad, death and life.
Maybe a fascination because he almost died at an early age? Or family of undertakers? No earth in the chart.
The first chart has Pluto in 2, strong sexual desire, what is yours is mine. Pluto going into the 4th, digging up
and re-living all the childhood trauma's. Asc. cancer with saturn in it and opposing capricorn must have beenvery hard, certainly with saturn travelling in the first house. Mercury retro, did he think about this before heact?
Was this a sex murder on a rich older person?
Just a try, don't mind if i'm wrong,still learning.
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Doh-Ray-Me

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #11 - on: 14.08.2007 at 12:39 [UT+1] »Possible two:
I like this character better sign wise, so they are my author choice.
Scorpio AC: Enthusiasm for ideas, creative projects and rich Arts romantic indulgence,
Sun Gemini: Love of escapism, keen learner, bookishness likely with sun Gemini Scorpio AC,
Air sign attraction to communication and living in their heads.
Moon in Aquarius: Escapism into fiction and interests.
Mercury in Gemini: all about communication. Again, at home.
3rd house cap? meticulousness and respect for tradition in communication.
Venus in Aries: a lot of performers are Aries - esp in music. This could lend more flamboyance & passion,
flourish and dynamism to creative projects.
It might mean feelings about people & social situations are clear, passionate, and heartfelt. Less subtlety andshades of grey though? (ah, but that's unfair. Aretha Franklyn is an Aries - respect!) Too hasty?
Mars in Gemini - excellent for writing surely.
Neptune in LIbra: Air escapism, creativity & imagination again.
Stellium in Gemini - Could all this air actually go the other way and have them reaching out for otherelements? Are the energies too easy for them? This could be someone very prolific, like a TV show creatorwriter, (Sci fi a big possible) such as a Joss Whedon, although I think he's another sun sign isn't he?
Saturn in Libra - If this was an author, it might be one who had trouble finishing things (Douglas Adams!) or
making decisions about which publishing house! - (nah, that's sun Libra). The venus in Aries would help.
Gemini sun might put off chores, but them try to get them over with all at once, so they could return to play.
Libra is about making the best judgements by weighing things up. I'm a sun LIbran with saturn in Aries, so I
guess they're decisive and fear/take seriously delay and vacilliation?
------------------If a murderer, this could be someone who just loses control of their temper when the final straw breaks thecamel's back. It could be a very fast flare up and flare down followed by gallons of guilt. It would be hard to hit
this person's buttons. The adoption clue would be interesting. Gemini might have buried anger and fears may
be about parental & sibling rows in childhood.

DRM stabbing in the dark
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?

Clare de Lune
Ex Member« Reply #12 - on: 14.08.2007 at 13:52 [UT+1] »Hi
The man from San Antonio would have been celebrating his 31st birthday on 29 July 1976, and what did heget? A Saturn transit on his natal Sun-Pluto conjunction in Leo, right on his progressed Asc. Nice gift.
If he had only recently found out about being adopted, he would have been in a very fragile emotional state. I
think this fragility and deception is shown by Neptune on the IC in opposition to his Moon on the MC. He also
has Chiron floating around his IC near Neptune, although it is in the 3rd house. He certainly had a lot of issues
with his mother, but if he didn’t know about his family history until he was an adult he would have had a hardtime trying to deal with it. You would think somebody with a strong third house would be able to articulate
their emotions, but with Chiron and Neptune near the IC and the Sun-Pluto conjunction in Leo, I think thisman found it quite hard to confide in people and it may have been the combination of the Saturn and Uranustransits (Uranus in Scorpio squaring the activity in Leo) which caused him to blow up. He also has Saturn in the
1st in Cancer so I would echo what Doh-Ray-Me said about this.
The guy from New York looks like he has an interest in crime and 8th house issues but with Gemini sodominant in this house his interest is probably more an intellectual one. The link between these two is that theyboth have Chiron in the 3rd and the Moon on the IC axis. I think the writer knows this and has been able tocapitalise on it in some way. If I was Sherlock Holmes I would say he has written a book about the older man (ifhe wasn’t executed that is, I don’t know if you had the death penalty in 1976!) The guy from New York would
have been 23 when the crime took place in 1976.
Anyway, this is mainly my intuition in overdrive so we shall see ...
CdeL
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Kathleen Rose
HarmonMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #13 - on: 14.08.2007 at 13:57 [UT+1] »Oops! Forgot to mention why I think chart number 1 is the writer
Asc Ruler, the Moon, conjunct the MC on the 9th house side (publishing, teaching, travel).
Ruler of the 2nd, the Sun conjunct the ruler of the 5th, Pluto, in Leo. Money made from personal creativity.
These are trine the MC-Moon, also, so he didn't struggle much trying to get published, I'd say, although life hadlots of other challenges.

Posts: 700
Gender:Ruler of the 6th, Jupiter, in the 3rd, work which involves communication and, very likely, publishing. Jupiter isconjunct the Pisces MC career ruler, Neptune, also, tying the work/job to the career in which he/she could
capitalize on their imagination.
Those are the main reasons I'd pinpoint that one (chart 1) as a writer.

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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #14 - on: 14.08.2007 at 14:10 [UT+1] »Hi all...great exercise Gene!
I agree..murders chart is the 2nd chart....great job Kathleen.

But to be expected from you!!!! I disgarded

the 1st chart as the "killer" because....after looking at it 1st..... then at the 2nd chart....it confirmed mydecision that the 1st chart was the writer.
First chart has natal Cancer cusp...emotionally intuitive person able to grasp underlying sensations of all
kinds...ruled by the moon....moon in the 10th house of aries....aries ruler Mars in the 11th house in Gemini,
natural house of the future. Mars in Gemini, words can be a "weapon"....and can be the "words" used to write
murder mysteries...re-iterated by 10th house moon at the zenith (10th of destiny and what we will be know
Posts: 2516
Gender:for) MC in Pisces....natural house of "mysteries". Emotionaly charged "books" or inellectual mystery games
about murder. (Gemini in the natural zodiac 3rd house position rules writing anything written and theintellect.)
Progressed MC now in Aries with ruler Mars progressed to the 12th house still in Gemini....again back to murder
mysteries and intellectual "mystery" games. Natal 3rd house in Virgo...ruled by Mercury found in the natal
2nd house of Leo...the "writers" very personal values attached to literature and anything written well and wellplanned. Progressed Sun conjunct natal Mercury... The writers "mind" is churing with ideas. Scorpio on the
natal 5th...(plutos domain) of creative efforts being able to re-create fictional muder mysteries as the
subject.....and transiting Uranus in the 4th house of endings.......some great twists and turns...surprises for thereader! Confirmed by natal Uranus and Venus.... both in the natal 12th house of mystery. Love andmystery! (Venus)
mystery games.

Plenty of twists and turns (Uranus) to keep the reader rivited...either in a novel or in

FUN exercise Gene!

Anyway, this is my take.

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IP LoggedKathleen Rose
HarmonMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #15 - on: 14.08.2007 at 14:25 [UT+1] »Quote from cynthpoet on 14.08.2007 at 07:29 [UT+1]:
I agree with you on that, Kathleen. All that activity (plus the PoF) in the eighth house points to some macabre fascination with death-perhaps a compulsion?
The first chart has a vacant eighth house ruled by Aquarius, and containing Pisces as well. This does not set off the sort of alarms thesecond chart does--eighth ruled by Gemini. I also noticed the Yod in the second chart, pointing to Chiron in Capricorn/Third house.
Problems communicating, ending in tragedy--the two legs being Pluto and Mars/Mercury conjunction (!) either of which could not end up ina good way.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posts: 700
Gender:

Hi, CynthiaI don't use POF much, because I don't trust my knowledge of it. It's funny, but at first I discounted the 8thhouse stellium as being too obvious, plus there are mystery writers like Stephen King that have heavy 8th
influences if I'm not mistaken. But, yes, Gemini is the sign of dual personalities and with a stellium there in the
8th, one side could be very dark indeed.
But, it's the out of balance mental nature of this chart that got my attention and double T-squares (several ofthem) and you reminded me of another thing that I didn't mention. The Gemini sun is being opposed bytransiting Neptune as well, so this man was having a kind of identity crises, and may have been delusional, withwild imaginings. This Neptune opposition with the Sun may also be a "who's my father, and who am I" crisis forhim. I'm not seeing that much in the chart that indicates his adoption, so guess I'm not very good at
pinpointing that, but I'm sure Gene will tell us what the indicators are, if this is the right chart, that is

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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #16 - on: 14.08.2007 at 15:05 [UT+1] »Reasons I think the 2nd chart is the "killer...(the one from N.Y.)
Natal AC in Scorpio....a person with deep dark secrets and pain. Packed 8th house in Gemini....a mind full of,as Kathleen so aptly said.....dangerous inclinations....Mars conjunct Mercury and Jupiter to amply thosethoughts. Libra on the 12th house cusp.....with both Saturn and Neptune in the 12th.....an unbalanced
psychological view of love (Venus ruler of Libra and balance).
Natal Venus in Aries...the ability to "push boundries and cross borders". Natal Moon in the 4th....inAquarius......detached feelings at a very deep level and a home destined for sudden change and explosive

Posts: 2516
Gender:revelations. Re-iterated by natal Uranus in the 9th in Cancer showing explosive truths...would emerge ofemotional content that changed the natives personal philosophical outlook on life(Cancer 9th)...re-iterated on
the day of the murder by transiting Uranus conjunct the natal AC square the natal Moon showing a "shock" totheir very foundations, (4th house) and taking explosive personal action (1st) that would change the outcomeof everything previous affecting the native for life....pushing him/her into a new direction of extremely negative
circumstances.
Progressed Mars, Sun and Mercury into Cancer....showing personal thinking (sun and mercury) became bitterly
distored with emotion upheavel, Mars enhancing the entire configuration with thoughts of revenge (Cancer).
Transit Venus inconjunct the natal Saturn/Neptune in the natal 12th .... showing the inability to come to any
kind of terms with the new information. Progressed mercury moved into a conunction with transiting Saturnconjunct the natives MC.........showing in their mind (mercury).....they would be the final judge and jury....
(Saturn)........(Leo MC).

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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #17 - on: 14.08.2007 at 16:56 [UT+1] »Hi Kathleen...
Two indicators in the 2nd chart of possibile adoption......as I'm not sure "adoption" can be exclusively proven ...

1. Gemini on the 8th house of what we "inherit" and the house of Plutos depth of having to go into dark places(of familial lineage passed down to us and other 8th house issues) ..... can indicate....secrets about our familyof birth....there's a 2d truth that hasnt been openly spoken of.

(Gemini)

2. Aquarius on the 4th house cusp....can also indicate what we thought our securest roots of homeare/were....and our home/family.......arent what we completely thought.
Posts: 2516
Gender:Also...Black Moon Lilith and its aspects can show where we might "flee" from situations of sexual involvementthat have some element of sexual inequality............as in not able to raise a child alone, particularily hard for
women in 1953 (year of the natives birth in chart 2) who experienced severe financially inequality in the job
market and were subjected to being ostracized from societys moral injunctions of the day ....... the children, as
this native was......the one reaping the consequences of such action. The adoptive parents....thinking toprotect the child by not "advertizing" the childs "heritage". Just a thought about this chart....BML isnt shown.

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Victor F.
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #18 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:05 [UT+1] »Wow Kathleen you're good!
Maybe number 1 plotted the whole murder and number 2 just executed it.
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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #19 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:18 [UT+1] »LOL Victor......I think you just sent the alert about authors who write "murder mysteries" from....run as fast as
you can from the author .....to.....head for the hills, and go directly into hiding!!!
That was sooooo good!

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Astro Healer
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #20 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Kathleen Rose Harmon on 14.08.2007 at 13:57 [UT+1]:
Oops! Forgot to mention why I think chart number 1 is the writer
Asc Ruler, the Moon, conjunct the MC on the 9th house side (publishing, teaching, travel).

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Gender:

The Moon is in the 10th. Just thought I'd tell you.

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Lissa

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #21 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:40 [UT+1] »What a fun game!
I believe the2nd chart belongs to the murderer...lots of8th house planets,and a very weak POF...On the other
hand,I'm not sure,knowing what type of murder it was(cold,planned murder or someone done in the heat of
the moment)would alter my decision but would also spoil the fun.I'm saying this because the2nd person seems
to have all the hallmarks of a very emotionally detached person,with all those Gemini planets inthe8th(intelectualizing a very spiritual house)and the Aquarius Moon in the3rd(thinking,thinking,and no real
feeling).(I'm taking the Moon as being in the3rd because I don't like to work with equal houses and the Mc is
only6ºLeo so the Moon gets caught up right next to the4th house cusp).Well the Moon makes an out of sign
square to Venus so feelings,if there were any,were of being unloved and unwanted.
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Lissa
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #22 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:41 [UT+1] »On the other hand the1st person has some indications of being more emotionally jumpy,more prone to getangered easily.
But I'll take the2nd as the killer.
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instant karma

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #23 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:43 [UT+1] »My take on that: The chart of "Possible Killer 2" is the chart of the murderer.

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Victor F.
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #24 - on: 14.08.2007 at 17:53 [UT+1] »I'll stay with the first one being the murderer, the second one is only living 'redrum' in the head. My humble
opinion.

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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #25 - on: 14.08.2007 at 18:03 [UT+1] »Could be Victor.....with that Uranus 4th......and surprise endings!!!

Either or....nothing is gonna beat yourcombining them as the dasterdly duo.......wheres Batman and Robin to foil the deed when you need them?

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Kathleen Rose

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?

Harmon« Reply #26 - on: 14.08.2007 at 18:42 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from Cranberry on 14.08.2007 at 16:56 [UT+1]:
Hi Kathleen...
Two indicators in the 2nd chart of possibile adoption......as I'm not sure "adoption" can be exclusively proven ...
1. Gemini on the 8th house of what we "inherit" and the house of Plutos depth of having to go into dark places (of familial lineage passed
down to us and other 8th house issues) ..... can indicate....secrets about our family of birth....there's a 2d truth that hasnt been openly
spoken of. (Gemini)
2. Aquarius on the 4th house cusp....can also indicate what we thought our securest roots of home are/were....and our
home/family.......arent what we completely thought.

Posts: 700
Gender:Also...Black Moon Lilith and its aspects can show where we might "flee" from situations of sexual involvement that have some element ofsexual inequality............as in not able to raise a child alone, particularily hard for women in 1953 (year of the natives birth in chart 2)
who experienced severe financially inequality in the job market and were subjected to being ostracized from societys moral injunctions of
the day ....... the children, as this native was......the one reaping the consequences of such action. The adoptive parents....thinking toprotect the child by not "advertizing" the childs "heritage". Just a thought about this chart....BML isnt shown.

Hey, Cran!
Woo hoo! You took the little cake I baked and decorated it so nicely with all the colors of the rainbow---justwhat I would expect, having had the pleasure of getting to know you and your remarkable talents!
Thanks so much for pointing out these issues. I agree adoption is very hard to prove, although Neptune at the
IC occasionally points to something of this nature. Looking at this chart though, I see that Uranus, ruler of the
IC is in the 9th in Cancer is square that Saturn-Neptune conjunction in the 12th, so maybe some religious
reasons for her decision to give up a child or, as you say, society's moral injunctions, having overstepped themperhaps by becoming a mother as a result of an irregular liason. Also, the moon at the IC square the asc andopposite the MC seems a little "rejecting" of the child borne, and I think this person felt that very strongly andpossibly this also contributed to a revenge on women mode of thinking.
Yes, this has been great fun, so maybe Gene will post some more puzzles like this when he runs across them

Huge hugs, Cran!
Kathleen
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HarmonMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #27 - on: 14.08.2007 at 19:06 [UT+1] »Quote from Astro Healer on 14.08.2007 at 17:25 [UT+1]:

The Moon is in the 10th. Just thought I'd tell you.

Yes, indeed the moon is in the 10th in almost anything but an equal house chart. Normally I don't use equalhouse, being hooked on Placidus, but this is one time I see the value of it, so thanks to Gene for that reminder
Posts: 700
Gender:of how effective equal house charts can be. And, I am reading it the way I was taught equal house treats
the MC,which can appear in any place between 9th and 11th in most latitudes, so please let me know if thiserroneous---very often we are taught things that others do not implement. However, the connections between
the MC (career) ruler Neptune conjunct Jupiter (6th house ruler) at the IC reiterating the
publishing/communications with the world in a larger way and lunar connection, plus the moon culminating in a
Gauqueliin plus zone. which his research says points to success in writing as a career, are enough that it would
still say writer to me, rightly or wrongly.

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Victor F.
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #28 - on: 14.08.2007 at 19:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 14.08.2007 at 18:53 [UT+1]:
I may be completely wrong but my choice would be the 1st chart.

All right, my guess too, we're getting a balance in this thread!!
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cynthpoet

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #29 - on: 14.08.2007 at 19:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 14.08.2007 at 18:53 [UT+1]:
The first chart posted, definitely. Erm...has no-one noticed the transits and progression Gene has posted are for the birthday of
the first chart posted? This isn't the only reason that I would pick this chart though....the sidereal chart has the Sun conjunct Pluto in
Cancer, indicating the metaphorical "death" of the natives first family at birth. These murders appear to have happened while thetransiting Sun was conjunct Saturn in the sky, conjunct the native's Sun-Pluto conjunction!

Saturn in the 1st in sidereal Gemini is also

extremely conflicting with a Sun-Pluto conjunction.
I may be completely wrong but my choice would be the 1st chart.

Both charts state the progression date, which must be the date for the murder: 29 July 1976. I don't see thishaving to do with the first chart (which is an older person than that of the second chart).
It also means that the person with the second chart would have been a child at the time of the murder.
Though there have been some juviniles who have committed patricide, this sort of turns most expectations on
their head...including my own.
Anyone else willing to do a synastry chart for the two players involved? The only one I was able to do on myown (using Kairon) shows some interesting aspects between the two.
The older person's Mars is conjunct the younger person's Jupiter and the older person's Pluto is conjunct the
younger person's MC. Other conjunctions:Older's Mars conjunct Younger's Sun and Vertex.
Older's Saturn conjunct Younger's Uranus.
Older's Uranus conjunct Younger's Sun, Mercury, Mars, Vertex, Ceres.
There are many squares as well, though I've heard that even some so-called "harmonic" aspects can point tonegative outcomes. This is getting quite fascinating, to say the least.
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #30 - on: 14.08.2007 at 19:32 [UT+1] »Cynth..if 29 July 1976 is the date of the murder... then one would be 31 and the other 23 at that time...neither
is a child.

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cynthpoet

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #31 - on: 14.08.2007 at 20:10 [UT+1] »Quote from _Tosh_ on 14.08.2007 at 19:32 [UT+1]:
Cynth..if 29 July 1976 is the date of the murder... then one would be 31 and the other 23 at that time...neither is a child.

Oops! My bad. (I admit that I suck at math.)
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Victor F.
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #32 - on: 14.08.2007 at 20:20 [UT+1] »Hey Gene,
Did the murderer kill his natural grandparents cause they forced his mother to give him up for adoption? I'mtalking about the first chart now cause to me he is the murderer.
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Ed Falis

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #33 - on: 14.08.2007 at 21:05 [UT+1] »Hi Gene,I'm a bit late to the game here, but haven't read any other entries in the thread. I'm assuming the date forwhich you progressed the charts is the murder date - otherwise nothing I say here is reliable.
I'd say PK 1 is the the murderer, and that it was a crime of passion, probably involving drugs or booze. This isbased mainly on the primary directions of the two candidates.
I also think the birth time for PK 1 is way off - like recorded 8-10 minutes too late.
- Ed
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #34 - on: 14.08.2007 at 21:11 [UT+1] »Having read the whole thread, you really muddied the waters by presenting PK2 first and PK1 second: you haveto decode each response to figure out who's talking about whom.

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Merlin9

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #35 - on: 14.08.2007 at 21:25 [UT+1] »I'm new at this too.....
I think Killer#2 (first chart) is the real murderer.
Most of planets are below horizon and to the left of the chart, indicating self-centered/internal thinking
Posts: 194
Gender:

Sun/Pluto conjunction in Leo - Powerful conjunction
Moon is intercepted (emotions held in check)
Cardinal T-square to Moon Aries 10H, square AC Cancer/ opposite Jupiter/Neptune 3H
Venus squares Jupiter and MCKiller #1 (chart #2) has a lot of planets in Gemini 8th House. Full of talk, no action.
Uranus is crossing ascendent - spirit left body
Transiting Moon/progressed Neptune conjunction in 2nd house. Deception.
Well, I could be wrong.....

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #36 - on: 14.08.2007 at 21:32 [UT+1] »Well, we all could very easily be wrong. Gene, when are you revealing the goods?

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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #37 - on: 14.08.2007 at 21:43 [UT+1] »Yeah, I hope you're going to do it soon now, Gene. I recognized the killer's birth data so I haven't
participated, and I'm going to blow a gasket soon if you don't tell them who it is!

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #38 - on: 14.08.2007 at 21:47 [UT+1] »chart 1 PK2 is the the murderer's chart

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AchernarMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #39 - on: 14.08.2007 at 22:11 [UT+1] »I am familiar with the one of the charts too, so have not participated either.
Best wishes
Achernar

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vertexEx Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #40 - on: 14.08.2007 at 23:04 [UT+1] »Does housing system make a difference in interpretation?
For instance, PK1 (second chart) has his Gem stellium intercepted.
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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #41 - on: 14.08.2007 at 23:30 [UT+1] »LOL Pam......I have to sympatheize with you.....its awful for me not to peek at presents under the x-mas tree.
If I knew this data.....I'd be bursting!

Cran

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Spiral 28
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #42 - on: 14.08.2007 at 23:53 [UT+1] »Good choice of mystery charts, Gene Ray.
For the exact secondary charts, do you have a close time of the murder event chart of July 29, 1976, or wouldthat be too easy ?

Just the time, not the place.

That would be a clue.

Thanks.
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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #43 - on: 15.08.2007 at 00:06 [UT+1] »Hi Spiral...
Dummm de dumm dumm.....do I hear you humming the mood music to set the stage???

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Spiral 28
Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #44 - on: 15.08.2007 at 00:13 [UT+1] »Cran, I was just thinking, I don't have to know a darn thing about astrology to know that the odds of Leo
someone committing a murder on his emotional, ego-filled birthday is very much more likely than a writer
finding a murder committed on his birthday and writing about it.
Those who were confused about the progresseds being on July 29 is because the man from Texas had hisbirthday on the day the murder was committed.
Posts: 3639
Gender:

These two charts we are studying for this answer are too equal in energies for murderer and the mystery writer.
Both must have some of the same qualities. What that leaves, then , is to pull back from the trees and lookat the forest.

Not to get lost in the details. To see the big picture.

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CranberryMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #45 - on: 15.08.2007 at 00:40 [UT+1] »Hi again Spiral........I hoped you'd see the thread. Your deductions are always so spot on with lots of
information for everyone.
Really good to see you again.

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astrodanlMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #46 - on: 15.08.2007 at 04:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 13.08.2007 at 22:36 [UT+1]:....
The two attached charts are progressed to the day of a murder of one or more people.
Can you pick out the murderer's chart and tell us why? There is one hint....

actually you gave us two hints, one being that the other chart is a writer's. my immediate inclination is that thefirst chart (murderer #2) is the writer.
guess we will find out one day.....
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Ms. Miranda

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #47 - on: 15.08.2007 at 05:35 [UT+1] »I had to repost, I forgot which one was what number. The Gemini is the killer. I dont' like his NN Aquarius andall that Gemini. I agree the 8th house coudl have been too obvious but its too airy. Ick... Gives me the creeps.
Love and blessings,
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #48 - on: 15.08.2007 at 05:39 [UT+1] »Hi Gene Ray
Sorry to be so late in on this and I have looked at others comments, but6 my first thought is still my lastthought; and that is that the first chart, for PK2 is the killer.
My reasons are that the Prog Sun is square natal Mars in 12th of self undoing; that Prog Mars is conj natal
Venus square natal Jupiter, excess of emotion; that Prog Asc conjoins natal Sun, taking action; transit
Saturn is on natal Sun, depressed, transit Neptune opp mid point of Mars/Uranus conused, and sudden
anger or agression.
I just don't see so many angry type aspects in the 2nd chart. Still I am ready to be surprised. Thanks for the
exercise.
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manja

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #49 - on: 15.08.2007 at 09:24 [UT+1] »I guess the murderer ist Possible_Killer_2, the first chart, cancer rising.
You say the murderer didn't know for a long time that he was adopted. This is imho indicated by the squarefrom mercury, house 2, to mars, ruler of house 10, the hidden father.

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KayBugEx Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #50 - on: 15.08.2007 at 10:11 [UT+1] »The killer is chart #2 (possible killer 1).
I have a fairly good amount of astrology knowledge but my ability to pull things together and interpret them isweak, so I usually rely on that good ole gut feeling and great intuition that I have.
When I looked at these 2 charts I immediately picked chart #2 on gut instinct and intuition. Then I looked atthem for astrological indicators. Since my astrology skills are weak and I don't know how to do the indepth
stuff this is what I based it on which prolly only makes sense to me in my way of thinking:
Asc. in Scorpio
Pluto at the MC
Mars in the 8th house
Saturn in Libra in the 12th house oppose Venus in Aires
All those planets in the 8th house and especially IMO in Gemini
Chiron oppose Uranus placements
Chiron square Neptune, Saturn and Venus
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Gene Ray

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #51 - on: 15.08.2007 at 15:08 [UT+1] »Hello all
These mysteries are fun! David Richard Berkowitz the "son of sam" killer and his chart is possible killer #1
born in Brooklyn New York. You can google his name or his nickname and find out more infromation.
Posts: 3329
Gender:I have found that this is a great way to learn to read charts. It does not matter how many times you are wrong
or right. You get better and better everytime you are willing to go out on the limb a little. So thanks forpartciapating, whether you were right or not.
Bes wishes
Gene Ray

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Astro Healer
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #52 - on: 15.08.2007 at 15:21 [UT+1] »Gene:Thanks for the exercise.
Who was the writer?

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Spiral 28

Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #53 - on: 15.08.2007 at 15:35 [UT+1] »Thanks, Gene. These two charts remind me of how close the charts are between a policeman and a criminal,a doctor and a surgery patient, a criminal and a victim sometimes.
They each have some of the sameenergies, and each person channels them differently. Another more positive example of like energies would
be a person who has the passion and love for listening to music his entire life, and the person who actually
performs the music.
Some give,some receive.

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Kathleen Rose
Harmon

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #54 - on: 15.08.2007 at 15:39 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from Gene Ray on 15.08.2007 at 15:08 [UT+1]:
David Richard Berkowitz the "son of sam" killer and his chart is possible killer #1 born in Brooklyn New York.

LOL...I remember the Son of Sam killings occurring when I was in college. Seems like I recall, without googling
his name, that he was a paranoid schizophrenic who claimed his neighbor's dog, Sam, was his father, and that it
was the dog who told him to go on a murder spree. Very bizarre...
Thanks again, Gene, for the excercise! And, yes, if you know, who is PK#2 of the first chart, just for the record?
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #55 - on: 15.08.2007 at 15:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 15.08.2007 at 15:08 [UT+1]:
I have found that this is a great way to learn to read charts. It does not matter how many times you are wrong or right. You get betterand better everytime you are willing to go out on the limb a little.

Congratulations to everyone who took a crack at it; way to go!
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Gene Ray
Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #56 - on: 15.08.2007 at 16:08 [UT+1] »Hello all
The writer was some guy who believed in UFO's. I can look in my records and find his name

Posts: 3329
Gender:To me the killers chart is shown by the 4 planets in the 8th house. His Progressed Ascendant is inconjunct (&approaching) Mercury in the 8th and Mercury rules the 8th. His Progressed Moon in opposite Jupiter in the 8th
as well. So the 8th house is emphasized.
It is hard to tell how this works out in charts. As Spiral and others have noted a criminal and a cop might havevery similar charts because the areas of life that are dealt with are similar. I just missed on a mystery chart at
my site. The chart had a heavy 9th house emphasis and I guessed it had to do with religion, knowing all thewhile it could have dealt with higher education or foreign affairs etc. It turned out that it was higher educationand so I was incorrect in my reading.
Doing these mystery charts are really a wonderful way to sharpen our skills. We probably learn more by being
incorrect because it always stings just a little and that cause us to remember the lessons better. Sometimes ittakes a little courage to "go out on that limb" and publicly make a reading, but those who do will turn out to bebetter Astrologers. No one is right all the time.
Gene Ray

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Clare de Lune

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #57 - on: 15.08.2007 at 16:33 [UT+1] »I got it wrong because my contrarian nature got the better of me, but I now have an idea about possible
indicators of adoption (thank you Cranberry) so we learn by play!
Thanks Gene, look forward to doing it again.
xxx
CdeL
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #58 - on: 15.08.2007 at 16:36 [UT+1] »Nice one Gene. I hope you can give us another one soon.
What worries me is I have Sun Jupiter and mercury in 8th house too, not mars, but it is square. Hope I don't
go out and top someone next full moon! Cheers all.
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cynthpoet

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #59 - on: 15.08.2007 at 17:11 [UT+1] »Is the writer Witney Straub, BTW?

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cynthpoet
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #60 - on: 15.08.2007 at 17:24 [UT+1] »Oops! Forgot the name...
It's actually Whitley Strieber.
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Gene Ray

Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #61 - on: 15.08.2007 at 17:34 [UT+1] »Hello all
The writer was Whitley Strieber. He claimed to have been kidnapped by a UFO
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Gene Ray

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Ms. Miranda
Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #62 - on: 15.08.2007 at 17:56 [UT+1] »I thought is was Whitley streiber at first after you mentioned it was someone who believed in UFOs but I'm
confused now... Everywhere I look Whitely Streiber's birthdate is June 13, 1945.
Love and blessings,
MirandaPosts: 3684
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IP LoggedLizaHEx Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #63 - on: 15.08.2007 at 19:07 [UT+1] »I'm going to go with the first chart.
Adoption indicators:* Look to MC-IC axis first. Neptune (confusion/deception) affects both: MC is Pisces, Neptune is in 4th. Also
Chiron in 4th, indicating some psychological wound relating to the family of origin (don't we all have those,haha--but with Chiron there it's more acute). However, Jupiter on the IC and IC ruler being Mercury exalted in
Virgo suggests to me that he lucked out with his adoptive family--classic story of kid given up by parents who
can't care for it, being raised by a better off family?
Of course, there are some adoption indicators for chart 2 also: Aquarius on the IC, with ruler Uranus in Cancer-separation from birth mother? But I don't see any contacts with Neptune (confusion/deception) or the 12th
(secrets)... so this doesn't seem as strong.
* Look to the Moon: chart 1 has the Moon opposite Neptune (deception etc.) across the MC/IC axis. They arealso both square the ascendant (identity). So far this is fitting the "adopted but not told the truth about it"
thing. Chart 2's Moon is also square the ascendant, but there are no outer planets or other major trauma
indicators (such as Chiron) adding to the picture.
Capacity for violence indicators:* Mars, Pluto. Both charts have Mars in Gemini sextile Pluto and in hard aspect to its own ruler, Mercury. Chart
1's Mars seems to be under a little more tension: it's square Mercury, whereas chart 2's Mars is just conjunctMercury; and it's semisquare Saturn, which can certainly indicate a tendency to let pressure build up until it
explodes. That same tendency is suggested by chart 1's Sun-Pluto conjunction in a fixed sign.
Also, on the day of the murder, chart 1's Mars had progressed to form some hard aspects: conjunct nVenus,
square nIC/MC and nJupiter (this makes me wonder if he killed his girlfriend [Venus] and/or adoptive family
members [MC/IC]). Transiting Pluto was also square the Asc-Desc axis, while tSaturn was conjunct nSun-Pluto,
which were also squared by tUranus (suddenness of the murder?) And Moon in Aries can indicate a hot temper.
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Gene Ray
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #64 - on: 15.08.2007 at 19:32 [UT+1] »Hello allYour correct. I bumbled his birth date. I used the date of the murders for the writers birth date. I need totake more time. So you all can consider yourselves correct if you want to since I have no idea who the
Posts: 3329
Gender:supposed writers chart belong to. It might belong to another mass murderer...who knows.
Sorry
Gene Rsy
Whitley Strieber
AKA Louis Whitley Strieber
Born: 13-Jun-1945

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Spiral 28

Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #65 - on: 15.08.2007 at 19:41 [UT+1] »Thanks, Gene, that is why I didn't do them.

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Kathleen Rose
Harmon

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #66 - on: 15.08.2007 at 19:51 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from Gene Ray on 15.08.2007 at 19:32 [UT+1]:
I used the date of the murders for the writers birth date. I need to take more time. So you all can consider yourselves correct if you wantto since I have no idea who the supposed writers chart belong to. It might belong to another mass murderer...who knows.

Or, another mass murderer, apparently adopted, who wrote his memoirs on death row

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #67 - on: 15.08.2007 at 20:00 [UT+1] »I'd say... (i only have read the first 4 posts until now)the 2nd is the assassin
Big 8th house stellium in Gemini... so he could rationalize his actions
Ruler 8th house in a sign of its' fall (Venus in Aries, opposing Neptune)
Moon on the Ic in Aqua
Also Uranus in Cancer... being estranged from its' natural home...
Uranus as the ruler of the Ic... Ruler 4 in 9... he was send away... adopted...
Neptune squaring ruler Ic
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Merlin9
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #68 - on: 15.08.2007 at 20:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 15.08.2007 at 15:08 [UT+1]:
Hello all
These mysteries are fun! David Richard Berkowitz the "son of sam" killer and his chart is possible killer #1 born in Brooklyn New York. You
can google his name or his nickname and find out more infromation.

Posts: 194
Gender:I have found that this is a great way to learn to read charts. It does not matter how many times you are wrong or right. You get betterand better everytime you are willing to go out on the limb a little. So thanks for partciapating, whether you were right or not.
Best wishes
Gene Ray

Gosh darn, I would have put the wrong man in prison!
It was a fun exercise and I hope you can do more!
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Gene Ray

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #69 - on: 15.08.2007 at 20:10 [UT+1] »Hell allI am going to give everyone credit for getting this correct. Here is the real writers chart.
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With a Sun/Mercury/Uranus stellium in Gemini, I think almost everyone would have picked this guy as an writerof unusual tales. With Moon conjunct Pluto, who knows he may have been abducted by aliens (ha).
Gene Raywriter.gif (attachment deleted)
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Astro Healer
Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #70 - on: 15.08.2007 at 20:14 [UT+1] »I have wondered weather his religious conversion is real or a show?
He seems sincere,but many of hese guys are also dilusional.
He was also attacked and almost died from an attack which could have severed the artery in his neck.

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Gender:I did a rectification which I think also has an emphasis of the Apex MP in a formation in the 9th like Berkowitz
has. I am thinking I could be correct as to that persons rectificaton being correct or close.

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Astro Healer

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #71 - on: 15.08.2007 at 20:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 15.08.2007 at 17:34 [UT+1]:
Hello all
The writer was Whitley Strieber. He claimed to have been kidnapped by a UFO
Gene Ray

Posts: 1639
Gender:Thanks ,his MP pictures are disturbing looking at the first chart of the writer you put up.If he had been themurderer it would not have been to far fetched as he lived or dreamed to kill it seemed.

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LizaH
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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #72 - on: 15.08.2007 at 20:34 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 15.08.2007 at 20:10 [UT+1]:
I am going to give everyone credit for getting this correct. Here is the real writers chart.

Sun and MC ruler conjunct Mercury, Moon in the 3rd?! Yeah, that chart screams "writer"!

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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #73 - on: 16.08.2007 at 01:51 [UT+1] »It was still an excellent learning experience Gene. I must admit to being surprised at how relatively modest
the progressions were to trigger such an event, mainly PAsc inconjunct natal Mercury Mars, compared to theproliferation of progressions in the mistake chart . Just goes to show how important it is to understand thenatal chart's potential first and not jump to hasty conclusions. Looking forward to the next one.
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LizaH
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #74 - on: 16.08.2007 at 16:42 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 16.08.2007 at 01:51 [UT+1]:
I must admit to being surprised at how relatively modest the progressions were to trigger such an event, mainly PAsc inconjunct natal
Mercury Mars, compared to the proliferation of progressions in the mistake chart . Just goes to show how important it is to understand thenatal chart's potential first and not jump to hasty conclusions.

I think one important thing to remember is that there are lots of different kinds of murder--people kill formoney, or out of unbearable rage at an abusive parent (kids killing the parents), or for jealousy/ego reasons(e.g. killing a cheating spouse), or out of all different kinds of mental illness, each of which creates its own
constellation of reasons for the killing... the list could go on and on. Knowing WHAT KIND OF MURDER wascommitted would go a long way towards helping us know what to look for in the chart. The Son of Sam wasseriously insane--he was paranoid, depressed, and psychotic; he thought the neighbors' dogs were demons
telling him to kill people!
I think the biggest learning experience here is seeing that soft or so-called "good" aspects can produce results
traditionally associated with hard or "bad" aspects. For that kind of insanity, I'd be looking for the luminaries or
Mercury to be whacked with hard aspects from outer planets--but lo and behold, Mercury is exactly trine that
Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and exactly sextile Pluto. It's also conjunct Mars, which "heats it up," for lack of abetter expression. We can see the ease and talents created by soft aspects in the fact that he joined the militaryand became an expert sniper--Mercury rules hand-eye coordination, and with its aspects to Mars and Pluto,
skillful use of deadly weapons is certainly one way to manifest that.
But a chart like this could have produced a truly amazing person. My theory is that charts are like prisms andpeople--as in, people's souls--are the light that goes through them: the chart tells you how that light will lookin this world, how it will manifest; but it doesn't tell you the nature of the light itself. A damaged soul, or one
touched by evil, or however else you want to describe it, will take a chart and manifest it in the worst possible
way. A wiser soul will manifest a chart in the greatest possible way. From the chart alone, you can see thepotentials--you can imagine how evil would manifest, if this chart were the tool it had to use; and you canimagine how greatness would manifest through the same chart. But astrology alone can't tell you the nature ofthat person's soul.
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Gene Ray

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Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #75 - on: 16.08.2007 at 16:59 [UT+1] »Hello Liza and all
Yes information helps. A pick between just two charts is one of the easier mysteries. In the other mystery
string I gave mulitiple choices. You should see what difficult mysteres we have at my site. Someone posts a
Posts: 3329
Gender:chart and asks "what this guy does for a liveing" Is he married? Does he have children? What happend to thechart owner on a particular day?
Very few clues are given. It's much harder then this.
Many times I could not come up with the correct answer, but there were enought times that I did, particularly
the more practice I had. It is a great learning experience to do these mystery tests. I sorry some of the more
prominent members chose not to participate.
It ok to be wrong. These things are hard, but some dont like to go out on a limb so be that as it may.
Gene Ray

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #76 - on: 16.08.2007 at 17:05 [UT+1] »Gene,
I chose to participate in this one because it was amenable to the methods I use - reasonably certain birth times
and a specific event. I still almost missed the thread and might not have participated in it by sheer
inadvertency.
I chose not to participate in the other thread because you restricted the information to be presented in aparticular kind of chart that you espouse, so I didn't have raw data to use. This was incompatible with themethods I use.
The issue was not one of not being willing to go out on a limb. So, we probably should not be second-guessing
why others didn't try the challenges.
This is not intended as a personal criticism, just an observation. I think your introduction of these exercises isa great contribution to the forum.
- Ed
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Kathleen Rose
HarmonMember

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #77 - on: 16.08.2007 at 17:10 [UT+1] »Excellent point, LizaH. I have learned to look at a trine or sextile with a rather jaundiced eye, I'm afraid.
Opportunity, certainly, but to do what? Ease, sure, but what exactly is being made easy? Murder, mishief andmayhem?
That is why the entire chart should be taken into consideration and not isolated aspects, good or bad, hard orsoft. Indeed, some of SofS's same aspects might spur someone else to good instead of evil acts. But, knowing
the outcome before doing the excercise simply made us look for the negative in both charts and to chose thegreater of two evils, apparently

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #78 - on: 16.08.2007 at 20:30 [UT+1] »I was wrong - you did have the original data for the mystery man quiz. I'd have guessed surgeon, but would
have missed the high blood pressure or the nature of the event.

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Gene Ray

Member

Re: Can you pick out the murderer from the writer?
« Reply #79 - on: 16.08.2007 at 21:20 [UT+1] »Hello allIt may seem at first glance that there is not a lot going on but in the chart but there is.
Posts: 3329
Gender:First of all with murder would look at the house of death the 8th. There is a 4 planet stelium the first planet
Jupiter is inconjunct (8th house aspect) the Ascendant. Stelium should also be a focal point and when there is aconnection to the Ascendant special attention should be paid. The ruler of the 8th Mercury is part of thisstelium and this gives more power to the stelium. Uranus is square the Saturn/Neptune (both rx at birth)
conjunction in the 12th. There is certainly something unusual (Uranus) hidden in the secret 12th house. Venus
the dispositor of Saturn/Neptune is opposite this conjunction from near an angle. In layman’s language Venus
does not approve of them being in her sign.
The Moon and Uranus are in mutual reception by sign. Both of these are negative for parents/family. Sudden
separation from them. Giving him up for adoption.
Now that we realize that the 8th house is very important we look to see the progression and transits that show
the stelium activation. Look at the progressed Ascendant and see that it forms an inconjunct aspect with thesign ruler of the 8th house and part of the stelium. So both the N Ascendant and the P Ascendant are forming
an 8th house aspect with an 8th house stelium one of the aspects to Mercury the ruler of the sign.
T Neptune (part of the hidden subconscious of the natal 12th) has also formed an opposition aspect and to the
Sun in the 8th house and is almost exact. The P Moon is also opposite Jupiter the lead planet of the stelium.
So by progression and transit we see activation of the stelium. There is more but this ought to serve as astrong indication that the 8th house stelium is strongly activated. But to add a couple more look and see that
Uranus is still within 3 degrees of the N Ascendant and it also forms an inconjunct aspect with the lead planet ofthe stelium in the 8th. P Mercury (ruler of the 8th) is square the Ascendant as well and by translation of light(at least) square Uranus.
These are seven, eight or more indications of explosive 8th house activation at the time.
Once I posted the correct writers choice (ha) it was easy to see the difference in the two.
I always look for inconjunct aspects in death. Look for Pluto’s aspects (as natural ruler of the 8th house) Look
for the 8th house ruler (Mercury in this case) and its aspect. Elvis Presley’s progressed Sun was conjunct the
8th house ruler the Moon at the time of his death and there were several other 8th house factors present in his
chart.
These aspects and indications are there in the chart. You just have to get used to looking for them and I knowof no better way then through tests like this.
Best wishes
Gene Ray

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