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Power (Read 4799 times)

SyzygyEx MemberPower« on: 28.06.2009 at 00:34 [UT+1] »Power is expressed in many different ways. In a natal chart, certain significators indicate characteristics that thenative uses to affect and influence others toward a certain outcome that s/he wishes to create in another.
In what way(s) are you powerful? And where in the chart is power located? What do you look for to find it?
Conversely, do you ever feel powerless....? Have there been circumstances that made you feel helpless orincapable of acting?
Is there someone in particular you find powerful and compelling? Post their chart!
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Steve3

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Re: Power« Reply #1 - on: 28.06.2009 at 00:39 [UT+1] »you first.

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VivishaEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #2 - on: 28.06.2009 at 01:19 [UT+1] »*silence

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #3 - on: 28.06.2009 at 01:26 [UT+1] »Here is the chart of someone I revere; one of my country's founding fathers. I have tremendous respect for thisman, because when he was offered a kingship, he declined it, stating that he would not be king for all theworld.
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Mars_second
Member

Re: Power« Reply #4 - on: 28.06.2009 at 01:37 [UT+1] »Venus in Aries in the 5th.

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Pisces63

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #5 - on: 28.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1] »This topic could go anywhere...
victoria secret is calling my name, 5hkDmGneE
is that power?

just returned from a new hairstyle, "kaitlin" (spelling?) They asked me if I was going out...

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lioninrain
Member

Re: Power« Reply #6 - on: 28.06.2009 at 01:51 [UT+1] »I think it's just an illusion - at least in personal day to day life. No one can have "power" over you if you don't
allow it.
Not talking about the "law of the land" type of thing - that's different in that it theoretically applies to all.
Actually, even that is somewhat of an illusion, albeit a massive group one - Really, what if everyone in a given
country/region/area simply said "No, we aren't doing that anymore"
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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #7 - on: 28.06.2009 at 02:44 [UT+1] »women have power over men.... generally speaking.
That's how I ended up mowing the grass today even though I thought the grass was fine.

Syzygy... I'm surprised. George Washington? Wasn't he a capitalist? Also, Sy... You have power. Does yourchart indicate the type of power that you try to exert in this forum? I think it's a type of power that you might
have in the classroom as well. Take for instance, this thread ( and those like it). You think up a topic and theway to get others thinking and excited about it. Then you post. And you draw others into your thread. They
expend effort in your thread, thinking, debating, typing, posting their thoughts. Isn't that power? Post yourchart and let's see where that power comes from. (BTW, do members of your clique get to wear cool uniforms
or anything?)
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #8 - on: 28.06.2009 at 04:18 [UT+1] »I'm with lioninrain....power is an illusion. Especially the notion of any power one could have in a controlledenvironment such as a forum.
Now, in terms of George Washington being a capitalist... hmmm. I have to wonder if one can apply modernist
terminology to someone who lived during the Enlightenment. I think it's certainly possible he could beconsidered a capitalist, but does that make him a bad person? Does power = bad?
Is all power a negative?
When did the term 'capitalist' come into use? I do not know.
but if lioninrain is correct, then George Washington's power was illusory as well.... on the other hand, he lead agroup of people who said "we're not going to take it anymore."
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lynnifer

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #9 - on: 28.06.2009 at 05:06 [UT+1] »I seem to have immense power......to screw up my life. Some might even say I have the power to screw up
their life as well!
I seem to do it so effortlessly.
No, but seriously, what I first thought of when I saw the thread title was; Scorpio and Pluto.
I know two Scorpio's who certainly weild some power. Over themselves and others.
Either I give power to the other; disaster, or I refuse to give up power; disaster.
I have an afflicted J, which is the apex of a kite (or the base? I can never figure out which). Intimate
relationships seem to be about power struggles in my life, starting with my parents, and continuing on ad
infinitum.
I agree with Steve that women seem to have power over men. We have something they need.

Some menrebel by weilding their E power, but no one seems to win that game.
So maybe there are two types of power; h/J (or feminine) power and a/E (masculine) power. One is covert
and the other overt.
Wasn't it Alfred Adler who's theory of psychology revolved around personal power or lack of? I'm with him. I
really think this is the crux of the biscuit when it comes to human motivation. Freud says it was sex, but sex isabout power too isn't it? Jung suggests it is some higher yearning towards inner balance and communion, but
I'm not sure I think that highly of human nature. Sad but true. We are all driven by the biological imperative tosurvive (requires power) and procreate (also requires power).
Solar_third, is that you in the picture, as a sproglet??
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Syzygy
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #10 - on: 28.06.2009 at 05:16 [UT+1] »lynnifer, this is a wonderful post; very comprehensive.... yes, I have the power to screw up my life, too.
However, I very much hope I do not have the power to screw up yours...
since I don't know where you live
and have no wish to. Ergo, I won't be following you off the forum to find you and plague you.
Which limits
my personal power tremendously, I always think.
the one thing I would like to add is that both men and women have power over each other. That one is so
obvious as to almost not need to be stated, but there it is.
Possessing a very different kind of power than George Washington's, here is the chart for Eleanor Roosevelt:
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lioninrain

Member

Re: Power« Reply #11 - on: 28.06.2009 at 05:43 [UT+1] »I think that it's entirely possible that people were more confident in their abilities back in George's
time....Makes a big difference.
Power = someone feels superior + someone feels inferior
I think we suffer from a very large inferiority complex these days. In a lot of ways, it is merely a way to blame
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Gender:someone else when things don't go well. Blame it on the guy "in charge". So we allow them their superiority
to avoid blame, maybe.

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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #12 - on: 28.06.2009 at 05:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 28.06.2009 at 05:16 [UT+1]:
lynnifer, this is a wonderful post; very comprehensive.... yes, I have the power to screw up my life, too. However, I very much hope I do
not have the power to screw up yours...
forum to find you and plague you.

since I don't know where you live and have no wish to. Ergo, I won't be following you off the

Which limits my personal power tremendously, I always think.

the one thing I would like to add is that both men and women have power over each other. That one is so obvious as to almost not need
to be stated, but there it is.
Possessing a very different kind of power than George Washington's, here is the chart for Eleanor Roosevelt:

Well, Syz, even if you did know where I lived you couldn't do a better job of screwing up my life than I
have....so never fear.
Yes, your probably right about men and women having equal power over each other. That concept seems morebalanced. Although I fail to see what women need from men after the initial injection of DNA, and it's a piece of
cake to get that from them!
But that's just my biased, cynical view, for sure. Sorry, guys.
The h person I know with the most amount of personal power has 5th house J tightly trine B and sextile A.
She also has EmD in the 8th. She whispered to me the other day that she fears nothing. I think this is key tothe issue of positive use of power. She has worked a lot with dying people. And the other Scorpio powerfulfriend, a gay man who sat by the side of many of his friends as they died of AIDS in the 80's, also looked
death straight in the eye. He seemed afraid of nothing too. I don't have his chart anymore, but there was a lot
going on with his Pluto, if I remember rightly.
Power that comes from fear, can so easily turn ugly.
Eleanor Roosevelt seems to have the power of words. I can't see the chart, but she has a strong C trine to J.
E in the 11th, fighting for humanitarian ideals (backed up by F as chart ruler) with her powerful words. She isdefinately one of my heroes.
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #13 - on: 28.06.2009 at 06:27 [UT+1] »Is there no little paperclip icon you can click on to see Eleanor Roosevelt's chart? No link or anything?

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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #14 - on: 28.06.2009 at 06:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 28.06.2009 at 06:27 [UT+1]:
Is there no little paperclip icon you can click on to see Eleanor Roosevelt's chart? No link or anything?

There is now!

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #15 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:05 [UT+1] »this is evidence of my power...
I say it here, it happens for you there.
magic...
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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #16 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:10 [UT+1] »If we had a devout little emoticon, bowing down to the greater powers-that-be....I would have used him here.
But I don't won't to open the emoticon can of worms again!

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SeaGoat72

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #17 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:16 [UT+1] »Funny, I saw this thread while I was reflecting on the power in a rather literal sense. I have just bought a newprime product from Apple, and much like other laptops, phones, etc. I seem to drain batteries in no time.
There is something esoteric about this now, since it happens over and over again. Either batteries are faulty or
there is a "power management" symptomatics in all devices I touch.
If power means being "in charge", I am afraid I might have it
I wonder if an intercepted aEnO in the 6th has anything to do with it.
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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #18 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:26 [UT+1] »Quote from SeaGoat72 on 28.06.2009 at 07:16 [UT+1]:
Funny, I saw this thread while I was reflecting on the power in a rather literal sense. I have just bought a new prime product from Apple,
and much like other laptops, phones, etc. I seem to drain batteries in no time. There is something esoteric about this now, since it
happens over and over again. Either batteries are faulty or there is a "power management" symptomatics in all devices I touch.

If power means being "in charge", I am afraid I might have it
I wonder if an intercepted

aEnO in the 6th has anything to do with it.

Very clever pun, Seagoat!
Syzygy,You seem to have the power to make people funny, and to make them laugh!
I always Laugh Out Loud the loudest on your threads.
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SeaGoat72

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #19 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:29 [UT+1] »Oh wow, thanks Lynn, and you haven't even seen me dancing, I am a real charmer

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #20 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:31 [UT+1] »lynnifer... I want you to be very careful. Try not to have too much fun around me.... I have been known to
induct people, unknowingly, from what I hear, into my cadre who then mindlessly follow me around, doing mybidding at every turn. I guess I create zombies with my magic juju-juice.
it's my 8th house emphasis. what can I do? I'm naturally evil.
I think I'm going to open a juju-juice joint and bring my warlocky ways to the masses.
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SeaGoat72

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #21 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:39 [UT+1] »Oh, no.
Syzygy, I hereby solemnly swear that I, SeaGoat72, am not going to be a part of your clique, smoke on theforum and test my astrological abilities on animals.
28.06.2009 at 07:38 [UT+1]

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #22 - on: 28.06.2009 at 07:52 [UT+1] »Excellent choice, SeaGoat. You may now go in peace, if thou so desireth it.
And let everyone here assembled bear witness to this: SeaGoat, humble creature that it/she/he is, did not drink
said juju-juice and did not become imbued with the Spirit of Evil a.k.a. Mine Own Power. (Or, MOP if you needan acronym.)
And she passeth through the portal, in peace and silence to the end of her days...
heeheeheehee...

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lynnifer

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #23 - on: 28.06.2009 at 08:03 [UT+1] »Give me the jui-jui juice, and the smoke......and the animals for that matter.
I'm easily led,......show me the way, Oh Great Syzygy One.
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AlmostThere
Member

Re: Power« Reply #24 - on: 28.06.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1] »I see Power as the ability to endure and win, to overcome or maintain due to pure will. Not the D charm, not
the A radiation and not the E fuss.
I have J 9th closely conjunct 10th cusp, richly aspected. I get volcanic energy and severe determination
thanks to him.
Pluto gives the real power, and that is the willpower not merely some manipulation or agressiveness.
A strong J can make a person ''rock hard'', able to persist and overcome any (or the vast majority of) trouble
or life battles out of pure concentrated will.

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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #25 - on: 28.06.2009 at 14:07 [UT+1] »Quote from AlmostThere on 28.06.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1]:

D charm, not the A radiation and not theE fuss.
I have J 9th closely conjunct 10th cusp, richly aspected. I get volcanic energy and severe determination thanks to him.
I see Power as the ability to endure and win, to overcome or maintain due to pure will. Not the

Pluto gives the real power, and that is the willpower not merely some manipulation or agressiveness.
A strong

J can make a person ''rock hard'', able to persist and overcome any (or the vast majority of) trouble or life battles out ofpure concentrated will.

To me, 'rock hard' implies no vulnerability. My wife's strongest planet ( according to Astrolog) is J. She isnaturally persistent and strong in many ways. But she's vulnerable too. As I experience J in my life at least,
I'm not sure that the best description for J is 'rock hard'.
I had a friend who's grandmother used to tell him to be like 'ice on rock' in order to survive life's difficulties. I
never quite understood until I took some photos of 'ice on rock'. Then I saw how tenacious it was. And ice isvery very powerful in its ability to break down and crumble even rock. It takes some time, but if you're a rock,ice is a formidable foe. And yet, ice on rock is not invulnerable. On one hand, some warmth will melt away theice. Or on the other hand, a sharp and forceful chisel will have its way with ice as well. These two extremes
have their analogous counterparts in interpersonal relationships with a Plutonian psyche.
So I think that 'ice on rock' is a better description. And in our physical world of planets, Pluto remarkably is .....
ice on rock.
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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #26 - on: 28.06.2009 at 14:19 [UT+1] »Syzygy,you know that people want and need a leader. But leadership without a sense of responsibility is called by many
names, none of which have positive connotations. You revere Washington. Suppose you found out that he wasreally abusive, sarcastic, condescending, and .... couldn't care less about the well being of individuals. Suppose
his dedication was to some faceless ideology called 'The United States'. But the people within it .... bahhh ...
petty creatures wallowing in their own weakness.
Would that reverence lose its shine?
Or not?
For me, it makes a difference. I will accept the power of a few who pass some sort of test of my own making.
And not many do....... even if I acknowledge that others may be more willing to bow down to some leader.
Power without responsibility is more likely an accident of history than it is an accomplishment of a man.
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Eloize Deschaux

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #27 - on: 28.06.2009 at 15:06 [UT+1] »Hm, I don't see myself as "powerful". I do see myself as "resilient" but that's about it. I think that's my"personal power". My obsession for winning has helped me a lot in my very short life.
Hello world!
On the other hand, I've heard people tell me my "words/voice" touches them. I don't even realize I have thiseffect on people. They always end up "confessing up to me" that same thing though.
I don't know, people always trust me for no reason so they don't mind spilling all their secrets etc to me.
Here's my chart.
I'll be honest with you people. I like to have power struggles, they make life interesting to me because I like to
see how far I can go.(I know, sounds odd but I'd hate to be around anyone who'd "give it away without afight".)
Here's my chart. Tell me what you see.
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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #28 - on: 28.06.2009 at 15:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Eloize Deschaux on 28.06.2009 at 15:06 [UT+1]:
Hm, I don't see myself as "powerful". I do see myself as "resilient" but that's about it. I think that's my "personal power". My obsession
for winning has helped me a lot in my very short life.
Hello world!
On the other hand, I've heard people tell me my "words/voice" touches them. I don't even realize I have this effect on people. They
always end up "confessing up to me" that same thing though.
I don't know, people always trust me for no reason so they don't mind spilling all their secrets etc to me.
Here's my chart.

I'll be honest with you people. I like to have power struggles, they make life interesting to me
because I like to see how far I can go.(I know, sounds odd but I'd hate to be around anyone
who'd "give it away without a fight".)
Here's my chart. Tell me what you see.

Just like another g that I know! Also with 1H E.

Amazing similarity.

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Ceto*

Member

Re: Power« Reply #29 - on: 28.06.2009 at 15:44 [UT+1] »Hmm, power is something that I duck away from most of the time because I don't like attention (12thA), butthese issues are always around me (J on MC). I attract powerful people, whether as friends or enemies, I don't
have time for people who feel they want to be my enemy and need to flex their muscles with me, it's boring
and I don't have the stamina or sustained interest (E c 5th house n I, p JMC, q FIC). Usually I am mymost formidable opponent and that is more than enough to entertain.

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Syzygy
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #30 - on: 28.06.2009 at 17:48 [UT+1] »Steve, I hope by now you know that no one on the forum needs or wants a leader. It would be like herdingcats. Or penguins. Or tortoises, depending on their mood.
we have always just dropped in on each other's threads, posted, and moved on. that's really all there is to it.
no exalted purpose, no grand schemes, no desire for glory. it's like one ongoing party. some people stay, mostleave. it's best not to get too attached, I have always found. This place is very ephemeral. I'm sure there's
some aspect in the initial forum chart that shows that inclination, but I'd have to find it to post it.
I myself am frequently gone for months at a time, and I know others just come and go... it's just part of thenature of the place. I know I, for one, do not take it all that seriously, and those who do wear themselves down
to a nub very quickly.
Cygnet, cool avatar! What is that a picture of??

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #31 - on: 28.06.2009 at 18:19 [UT+1] »George Washington was relentless and diligent. This he had more than power. The outcome was achievement,
merit and honor. This he had more than power.
For power, one simply assembles a gang and gangs up on people.
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judyanne
Member

Re: Power« Reply #32 - on: 28.06.2009 at 18:49 [UT+1] »My own form of power is most effective when I'm channeling universal forces, rather than exerting my personal
will over others. I feel the most powerful when I'm singing, especially when it's spiritual music within thecontext of a group, and I can tell that others are affected or inspired by my singing.
I think that's in line with my Mars which, though in its own sign of Aries, is buffeted by many aspects withouter planets. Mars is in the 11th house which is much more about creation as a means of enhancing a groupexperience rather than expressing one's individual artistry.
My Mars energy pulls in and focuses the more universal energies that I am able to access. It's sort of likeacting as a funnel instead of a sledgehammer.
Posts: 2012
Gender:"Power" is one of those words that gets a bad reputation, but I really think that more damage is done by those
who don't recognize their own potential for power, than by those who have an honest assessment of where they
can use their power in order to effect positive results.

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SeaGoat72

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #33 - on: 28.06.2009 at 18:52 [UT+1] »We often underestimate the power of written and spoken word - we have it and we use it.
Superior linguistic skills is a lot of power, a power of persuasion. Knowledge is power - the old adage is "how to
use it, and for what, for good or for bad"? The universe is begging us to be "creative" and use the little free will
we have to make right choices.
But we often overlook other manifestations of power as we apply it in our daily interactions: we (both men andwomen) are trying to be charming, we smile, pay compliments - all these are ways to exert some influence onother people.
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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #34 - on: 28.06.2009 at 20:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 28.06.2009 at 17:48 [UT+1]:
Steve, I hope by now you know that no one on the forum needs or wants a leader. It would be likeherding cats. Or penguins. Or tortoises, depending on their mood.
we have always just dropped in on each other's threads, posted, and moved on. that's really all there is to it. no exalted purpose, no
grand schemes, no desire for glory. it's like one ongoing party. some people stay, most leave. it's best not to get too attached, I havealways found. This place is very ephemeral. I'm sure there's some aspect in the initial forum chart that shows that inclination, but I'd haveto find it to post it.
I myself am frequently gone for months at a time, and I know others just come and go... it's just part of the nature of the place. I knowI, for one, do not take it all that seriously, and those who do wear themselves down to a nub very quickly.
Cygnet, cool avatar! What is that a picture of??

Well I wasn't suggesting that there is an explicit call for a leader, nor - if there were one - that you should
answer it. But I stand by what I said regarding many people wanting and looking for a leader. Men and womenthat are suitable hooks for the character of the sought after leaders may want the freedom to be cavalier andeven irresponsible. And they can even be cavalier and irresponsible. But they are not free from bearing the
responsibility for the consequences of their leadership, no matter how indifferent and reluctant they are as
leaders.
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ominousbubble

Member

Re: Power« Reply #35 - on: 28.06.2009 at 22:06 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 28.06.2009 at 02:44 [UT+1]:
women have power over men.... generally speaking.
That's how I ended up mowing the grass today even though I thought the grass was fine.)

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ominousbubble
Member

Re: Power« Reply #36 - on: 28.06.2009 at 22:21 [UT+1] »I think freedom O=power. The freedom to live fearlessly and without a desire to control others.

Posts: 1050

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ominousbubble

Member

Re: Power« Reply #37 - on: 28.06.2009 at 22:25 [UT+1] »Oh, I have to say inspiration is very powerful. A song, a poem, or even a thought. If someone believes
something strongly enough, for better or worse, it can show in the way they walk, talk, look at you, etc.. andpeople pick up on that. I or F I think.

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Marshal Crown
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #38 - on: 28.06.2009 at 22:25 [UT+1] »I have this little conceit--that Power, is Susceptability--

to Truth.

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lynnifer

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #39 - on: 28.06.2009 at 23:25 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 28.06.2009 at 18:49 [UT+1]:
My own form of power is most effective when I'm channeling universal forces, rather than exerting my personal will over others. I feel themost powerful when I'm singing, especially when it's spiritual music within the context of a group, and I can tell that others are affected
or inspired by my singing.
I think that's in line with my Mars which, though in its own sign of Aries, is buffeted by many aspects with outer planets. Mars is in the
11th house which is much more about creation as a means of enhancing a group experience rather than expressing one's individual
artistry.
My Mars energy pulls in and focuses the more universal energies that I am able to access. It's sort of like acting as a funnel instead of asledgehammer.
"Power" is one of those words that gets a bad reputation, but I really think that more damage is done by those who don't recognize theirown potential for power, than by those who have an honest assessment of where they can use their power in order to effect positive
results.

This is a great post Judyanne. Thank You.

You really expressed the essence of pure or higher power, rather than the 'sledgehammer' variety.
I completely agree with your last paragraph too.
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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #40 - on: 28.06.2009 at 23:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 28.06.2009 at 20:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Syzygy on 28.06.2009 at 17:48 [UT+1]:
Steve, I hope by now you know that no one on the forum needs or wants a leader. It

would be like herding cats. Or penguins. Or tortoises, depending on their mood.
we have always just dropped in on each other's threads, posted, and moved on. that's really all there is to it. no exalted
purpose, no grand schemes, no desire for glory. it's like one ongoing party. some people stay, most leave. it's best not to
get too attached, I have always found. This place is very ephemeral. I'm sure there's some aspect in the initial forum
chart that shows that inclination, but I'd have to find it to post it.
I myself am frequently gone for months at a time, and I know others just come and go... it's just part of the nature of theplace. I know I, for one, do not take it all that seriously, and those who do wear themselves down to a nub very quickly.

Cygnet, cool avatar! What is that a picture of??

Well I wasn't suggesting that there is an explicit call for a leader, nor - if there were one - that you should answer it. But I stand by what I
said regarding many people wanting and looking for a leader. Men and women that are suitable hooks for the character of the sought after
leaders may want the freedom to be cavalier and even irresponsible. And they can even be cavalier and irresponsible. But they are notfree from bearing the responsibility for the consequences of their leadership, no matter how indifferent and reluctant they are as leaders.

Actually, I think the responsibility is entirely on the shoulders of the followers. Or should I say sychophants?
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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #41 - on: 28.06.2009 at 23:41 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 28.06.2009 at 23:32 [UT+1]:....
Actually, I think the responsibility is entirely on the shoulders of the followers. Or should I say sychophants?

Yeah... I guess it takes both. It's just easier to focus an analysis of a power dynamic on a single entity. But
indeed, if the population of a country does not empower the leaders, those leaders are powerless.
Maybe someone already said this:
Leader + Followers = PowerSo, I'd go along with them both having to take responsibility... in an existential sense.... defining who they areby what they do.
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Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #42 - on: 28.06.2009 at 23:55 [UT+1] »I guess it is the same in other countries, but we often have problems with our football heroes. Young,emotionally immature boys who by some accident happen to be exceptional at playing a game, andconsequently are put into the role of hero, celebrity, superman. That's a pretty large, often unasked for, amountof power to bear.
Then when they behave like boys, partying, using drugs, getting into fights....all the followers are devistated
and they quickly become Anti-heroes. Everyone says how disappointing they are, etc, etc.
I don't think it is that they handle power irresponsibly, I think the followers expectations are unfair, unrealistic
and uncalled for.

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judyanne

Member

Re: Power« Reply #43 - on: 29.06.2009 at 00:59 [UT+1] »Thanks, Lynn.

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Shokk
Member

Re: Power« Reply #44 - on: 29.06.2009 at 01:43 [UT+1] »Depends on one's definition of power, I think.
I believe that true power is brought out from the self (this inner power's presence there is, I believe, due to thegrace of a higher power, a creator, but you can disregard my theological standpoint, it's inessential to the point
i'm making.)
Posts: 226

False power is derived from others.
Not that one is more or less influential or "powerful" than the other, it's just that one is a complete illusion of
power, I like to imagine true power as a flame, and think of False power as a mirror.
As far as astrological indicators of either are concerned, I truly can't say for sure, don't know enough, but I
think it might partially be one of those things where the native decides how to use their natural power, where
to focus it and such, that determines whether they come to power/ what form of power they wield.

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Van Derek

Member

Re: Power« Reply #45 - on: 29.06.2009 at 03:41 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 28.06.2009 at 23:25 [UT+1]:
Quote from judyanne on 28.06.2009 at 18:49 [UT+1]:
My own form of power is most effective when I'm channeling universal forces, rather than exerting my personal will overothers. I feel the most powerful when I'm singing, especially when it's spiritual music within the context of a group, and I
can tell that others are affected or inspired by my singing.
I think that's in line with my Mars which, though in its own sign of Aries, is buffeted by many aspects with outer planets.
Mars is in the 11th house which is much more about creation as a means of enhancing a group experience rather thanexpressing one's individual artistry.

Posts: 684
Gender:My Mars energy pulls in and focuses the more universal energies that I am able to access. It's sort of like acting as afunnel instead of a sledgehammer.
"Power" is one of those words that gets a bad reputation, but I really think that more damage is doneby those who don't recognize their own potential for power, than by those who have an honest
assessment of where they can use their power in order to effect positive results.

This is a great post Judyanne. Thank You.

You really expressed the essence of pure or higher power, rather than the 'sledgehammer' variety.
I completely agree with your last paragraph too.

I thought so too lynnifer but I got lost in the last highlighted statement. judyann Are you suggesting thatthose that sit on their hands and not take power [and responsability] are doing damage
and if so why?
Like Steve I think that with power comes responsibility. Also no power is absolute, as astrologers we see thatpeople are empowered in different walks or aspects of life [strongest houses or signs]. I totally reject thatpower per se is evil… even capitalism, many capitalists have become philanthropists. Also power waxes andwanes like the moon. An interesting observation of mine is the progressed moon through the natal chart… I
have found often people are at the height of their personal power [or what they see important in their lives andhave strived for] when the moon progresses through their Midheaven.
It’s also interesting that few of us are prepared to expose our personal power to scrutiny… maybe this isbecause power is a reflection off others [as Shokk says] and once having attained power the ‘others’ will engage
to create an equilibrium. One of the best books I’ve read regarding this is “Struggle of the Magicians” William
Patrick Patterson’s expose on the struggle between the teacher [Gurdjieff]- student [Uspenskii] relationship.
I was looking at Michael Jackson’s chart earlier and it occurred to me that his power is possible throughfrequency of conjunctions. Jackson understood the laws of entertainment and was given power… and power has
always been given to those who understand the law. The laws of astrology are no different… the knowledge it
gives us empowers us personally and through the giving of others if we use it wisely. One last point… I hear a
lot about J [taking] power however I don’t think F [given] power should be overlooked.
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judyanne
Member

Re: Power« Reply #46 - on: 29.06.2009 at 03:59 [UT+1] »Quote from DrKoo on 29.06.2009 at 03:41 [UT+1]:
judyann Are you suggesting that those that sit on their hands and not take power [and responsability] are doing damage

and if sowhy?

They are doing damage to themselves and to others close to them if they blame those others for circumstances
which they themselves had a part in creating.
In the examples I am thinking of, in the context of marital relationships, they also did damage to their children
by showing them examples of helplessness and angry resentment instead of strength and cooperation within a
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marriage.

Gender:Koo, why do you disagree? Please present your thinking on this subject so that I understand why you aremaking that questiony emoticon.
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Van Derek

Member

Re: Power« Reply #47 - on: 29.06.2009 at 05:12 [UT+1] »Sorry

I didn't disagree [to me] means I don't understand please explain... now that you have I

understand that you were relating to power in the home I was on a completely different level of thought… more
like public power.
I accept what you say but would assign this to responsibility. Problem is that with the giving of power F theresponsibility lies with the giver, so if in a relationship you empower someone they may not necessarily accept
that power. An person may have a certain amount of personal power and spend a lifetime empowering others[Anthony Robbins comes to mind] he has to accept responsibility for that… no doubt if in time his techniques
Posts: 684
Gender:are found to be wrong the fickle finger of fate will be pointed in his direction. Thing about family relationships
is that they shouldn't be about power at all, they should be about love and respect.

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judyanne
Member

Re: Power« Reply #48 - on: 29.06.2009 at 05:40 [UT+1] »I don't think it's Jupiter in operation in the situations I am thinking of. It's more the balance of Mars and Venus
as in 1st house and 7th house.

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Van Derek

Member

Re: Power« Reply #49 - on: 29.06.2009 at 05:47 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 05:40 [UT+1]:
I don't think it's Jupiter in operation in the situations I am thinking of. It's more the balance of Mars and Venus as in 1sthouse and 7th house.

as I said love [partnership] and respect, little to do with power.

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Krista ShippMember

Re: Power« Reply #50 - on: 29.06.2009 at 06:00 [UT+1] »I have what I call a 'quiet courage'
This translates in power- imo when I have to go to bat for myself or for someone I love
I have always been my own 'cheering section'
My relationship with cousins- etc was always give & takePosts: 15841
Gender:I gave- they tookGf- H3;.. N- i H6 o NB-H9 & NG ???
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Ceto*

Member

Re: Power« Reply #51 - on: 29.06.2009 at 06:11 [UT+1] »Syzygy - I first saw this painting in Umberto Eco's book On Beauty, it's Sappho painted by Charles-AugusteMengin.

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camengin-sappho.jpg (attachment deleted)
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Ceto*
Member

Re: Power« Reply #52 - on: 29.06.2009 at 06:15 [UT+1] »It's beautiful, I wanted to get a print for the house, then started thinking about the feng-shui. Do I really wantto end up on a cliff edge, composing poems and bare breasted

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, maybeand no wine in sight.

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Van Derek

Member

Re: Power« Reply #53 - on: 29.06.2009 at 06:17 [UT+1] »Power of the boobs... hey don't get me started

P.S. look better drapped over the trickster

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Krista ShippMember

Re: Power« Reply #54 - on: 29.06.2009 at 06:35 [UT+1] »I have Sappho m Juno in H5-h
Do I want to know what this indicates ???

KSS
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judyanne

Member

Re: Power« Reply #55 - on: 29.06.2009 at 11:16 [UT+1] »Quote from DrKoo on 29.06.2009 at 05:47 [UT+1]:
as I said love [partnership] and respect, little to do with power.

Lol! Have you ever been in a long term marriage? If you have, and if you still believe that power is not
involved, then I applaud your idealism.

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lynnifer
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #56 - on: 29.06.2009 at 11:24 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 11:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from DrKoo on 29.06.2009 at 05:47 [UT+1]:
as I said love [partnership] and respect, little to do with power.

Lol! Have you ever been in a long term marriage? If you have, and if you still believe that power is not involved, then I applaud youridealism.

Yes! I saw that too.

Love, relationships have everything to do with power, in my experience at least.

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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #57 - on: 29.06.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1] »

OED:
power
• noun1 the ability to do something or act in a particular way.
2 the capacity to influence other people or the course of events.
3 a right or authority given or delegated to a person or body.
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4 political authority or control.
5 physical strength or force.
6 a country viewed in terms of its international influence and military strength: a world power.
7 capacity or performance of an engine or other device.
8 energy that is produced by mechanical, electrical, or other means.
9 Physics the rate of doing work, measured in watts or horse power. Mathematics the product obtained when anumber is multiplied by itself a certain number of times.
These are all masculine attributes aren't they? Energy, strength, authority, control.
Mars, Saturn, Pluto.

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judyanne
Member

Re: Power« Reply #58 - on: 29.06.2009 at 12:00 [UT+1] »Rookish, I disagree with your statement that the concepts defining power are all masculine.

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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #59 - on: 29.06.2009 at 12:27 [UT+1] »Hey Judyann
This is where I'm coming from:
Our conceptions of power arise from a male dominated culture in the West (this is culturally specific but
widespread) and are attributes of the ruling elite - masculine. Yes we have feminisim, more women in

Posts: 3675

government and contributing to opinion making discussion, but still cuturally we see power as authoritative notcollaborative or truly democratic.
Where women have power, we often see it as ruthlessly aping men (think Thatcher) or manipulative or insidious(power behind the throne) and not legitimate ie in it's own right, or talking a lot -airing views (Oprah) and not
truly effective as in authoritative or legitimate.
Hence we see power in terms of masculine attributes, masculine planets.
How do you see power differently and how does that align with feminity or feminine planets, or the asexual
behaviours and planets?

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Lindac7
Member

Re: Power« Reply #60 - on: 29.06.2009 at 12:27 [UT+1] »I agree with Judyanne - there are masculine forms of power and feminine forms.
The problem, though, is we have become so accustomed to thinking about power only in a masculine sense(which is presented and reinforced to us ad nauseum), we've lost sight of a lot of what constitutes feminine
power. This is exactly why the Women's Liberation movement began in the first place - so women could reclaim
their natural power. The reason this was necessary is that men didn't like the power women had over them, sothey found ways to 'create' power over women in order to subjugate them and make them feel like they didn't
have any power. Denying women the right to vote was simply one outward sign of this. Sexual harassment in
the workplace was another. When a woman had the strength to accuse a man of harassing her, the men twisted
it around and claimed that 'she asked for it'.
Posts: 2029
Gender:I realize this may sound bitter, etc., but it's simply the unvarnished truth of the dynamics I've watched changeeven in just the course of my life. As little as 30-35 years ago, women didn't have nearly as much power as
they have today. Men still make more money than women, though, and they still have more authoritarian
power.
Some might disagree with me on this, but I believe most of us automatically think of Pluto as being the 'mostpowerful' of the planets (else, why else would the mere mention of the word 'Scorpio' cause the reactions thatit does?). Pluto is feminine. Mars is masculine. Mars operates more often by symbolically 'hitting its opponent
over the head' in order to exert and/or claim its power. Pluto operates more subtly by slowly influencingchange from within. This is one of the main reasons why I believe Pluto is Scorpio's true ruler and not Mars at
all, because Scorpio rarely uses Mars-like power to get what it wants.
The whole reason Pluto is about strategy, stealth, maneuvering, etc. (i.e., covert power) is because this is the
only type of power women could use for many years while under the male's Mars thumb of (overt) power. For
many years until recently, women were not allowed to wield authoritarian (Mars-like), overt power.

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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #61 - on: 29.06.2009 at 13:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Lindac7 on 29.06.2009 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
I agree with Judyanne - there are masculine forms of power and feminine forms.
The problem, though, is we have become so accustomed to thinking about power only in a masculine sense (which is presented andreinforced to us ad nauseum), we've lost sight of a lot of what constitutes feminine power. This is exactly why the Women's Liberation
movement began in the first place - so women could reclaim their natural power. The reason this was necessary is thatmen didn't like the power women had over them, so they found ways to 'create' power over
women in order to subjugate them and make them feel like they didn't have any power. Denying
women the right to vote was simply one outward sign of this. Sexual harassment in the workplace was another. When a woman had thestrength to accuse a man of harassing her, the men twisted it around and claimed that 'she asked for it'.
I realize this may sound bitter, etc., but it's simply the unvarnished truth of the dynamics I've watched change even in just the course of
my life. As little as 30-35 years ago, women didn't have nearly as much power as they have today. Men still make more money than
women, though, and they still have more authoritarian power.
Some might disagree with me on this, but I believe most of us automatically think of Pluto as being the 'most powerful' of the planets(else, why else would the mere mention of the word 'Scorpio' cause the reactions that it does?). Pluto is feminine. Mars is masculine. Mars
operates more often by symbolically 'hitting its opponent over the head' in order to exert and/or claim its power. Pluto operates more
subtly by slowly influencing change from within. This is one of the main reasons why I believe Pluto is Scorpio's true ruler and not Mars at
all, because Scorpio rarely uses Mars-like power to get what it wants.
The whole reason Pluto is about strategy, stealth, maneuvering, etc. (i.e., covert power) is because this is the only type of power women
could use for many years while under the male's Mars thumb of (overt) power. For many years until recently, women were not allowed towield authoritarian (Mars-like), overt power.

While I don't refute your observations, I disagree with the motives that are implied here. And maybe a mootpoint, but I think that saying that men don't like the power that women have over them is incorrect. I thinkmen often disagree with the methods that women may use to reach a goal. But that's no indication of
antipathy.
Also, I think the implication that the gulf between genders and any subjugation of one over the other is causedby the biological difference - men vs women - is incorrect. You will see women with masculine traits rejecting
feminine approachs to life. And you will see men with feminine traits rejecting masculine approaches to life.
Conversely you see more and more emasculated men nodding their heads to women as our culture attempts tore-engineer the human. No.... the schism is between masculine and feminine... not between men and women.
So while I agree that there is a disconnect between masculine and feminine, I think that equating this
disconnect with 'men vs women' - and then creating laws that treat them differently based on their biologicalgender in response to an assumed intentional subjugation conspiracy - is erroneous. Maybe understandable ...
but erroneous.
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judyanne
Member

Re: Power« Reply #62 - on: 29.06.2009 at 14:17 [UT+1] »Rookish, Linda, and Steve, thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am still working this out in my head.
I guess I have a hard time accepting the concept that women can't be as direct and effective as men thesedays, at least here in the modern western world. I work with many educated women who are successful in theircareers. They didn't get where they were by pretending to be weak or stupid. They wield their power
effectively, and people they work with (both men and women) respect them for it.
And yet, I also know women who are stuck as stay-at-home mothers and who secretly confess to their womenfriends that they no longer love their husbands but feel compelled to stay married because they fear poverty forthemselves and their children. They are stuck in a pattern of helpless dependency. So obviously, for them,
Posts: 2012

there is still a male-dominated power structure.

Gender:I don't know; there is a lot to think about.
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Lindac7

Member

Re: Power« Reply #63 - on: 29.06.2009 at 14:18 [UT+1] »Steve,
I completely understand your position, and while I agree that men and women are all becoming more
comfortable with their respective opposite natures (masculine vs. feminine), years ago this wasn't the case. I'm
talking about back when (let's say in the '50s just to pinpoint a time for illustration) men and women were
expected to fulfill certain roles, and anyone who didn't naturally fit those roles was simply out of luck.
We now live in a society where feminine men and masculine women are far more accepted than ever before,
and while a lot of people don't have a problem with that at all, there are still others who do have a problem
with it.
Posts: 2029
Gender:If you can honestly state and believe that you are OK with the power that women have over you, I can accept
that just fine, and I applaud your open-minded, inclusive outlook. However, I've seen evidence from other men
that they're not quite that evolved yet. Please don't think that any statement or argument I make in thisregard is to include the word ALL (meaning all men/women, etc.).
At the same time, I don't see how men in power denying women the right to vote (as an example) could beconstrued as anything but an intentional subjugation by one sex toward the other. Some other examples
might be erroneous, but I think it would be pretty difficult to talk one's way out of that one.
In addition, let me just add as an observation from my own personal experience, that I know I've been treateddifferently by some men in my past simply because I am female, and this dynamic, though it has improved
much over the years, has not been completely eradicated.
I think a lot of the reason for our points of disagreement have to do with our own personal experiences, minethrough the eyes of a woman, yours through the eyes of a man. It makes a difference, I guarantee you.

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Lindac7
Member

Re: Power« Reply #64 - on: 29.06.2009 at 14:31 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 14:17 [UT+1]:
Rookish, Linda, and Steve, thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am still working this out in my head.
I guess I have a hard time accepting the concept that women can't be as direct and effective as men these days, at least here in themodern western world. I work with many educated women who are successful in their careers. They didn't get where they were bypretending to be weak or stupid. They wield their power effectively, and people they work with (both men and women) respect them forit.
And yet, I also know women who are stuck as stay-at-home mothers and who secretly confess to their women friends that they no longer
love their husbands but feel compelled to stay married because they fear poverty for themselves and their children. They are stuck in apattern of helpless dependency. So obviously, for them, there is still a male-dominated power structure.
I don't know; there is a lot to think about.

Posts: 2029
Gender:Judyanne,
I hope I didn't give you (or anyone else) the impression that I was saying women can't be as direct andeffective as men these days - I know they can, and I've seen many who are - I've done it myself. I've also beentreated with respect by many men for being this way.
I'm simply saying that it's still not completely accepted by everyone, and the proportion of women who are
successful in this regard is still small in relation to all women. There are many people still alive today who werebrought up on the old double standard, and have not been able/willing to change their perspective (men andwomen both). This part of our evolution as a society is not yet complete.
In addition, the male-dominated power structure is still there to a very large degree, even for the women who
have equal power. It's not simply a perception of the women who are in situations of helpless dependency.
Yes, some women have been allowed in, but they are still small in number compared to men on the samelevel.

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Eloize Deschaux

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #65 - on: 29.06.2009 at 14:46 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Hey Judyann
This is where I'm coming from:
Our conceptions of power arise from a male dominated culture in the West (this is culturally specific but widespread) and are attributes of
the ruling elite - masculine. Yes we have feminisim, more women in government and contributing to opinion making discussion,
but still cuturally we see power as authoritative not collaborative or truly democratic.
Where women have power, [b]we often see it as ruthlessly aping men (think Thatcher) or manipulative or insidious (power
behind the throne) and not legitimate ie in it's own right, or talking a lot -airing views (Oprah) and not truly effective as inauthoritative or legitimate.[/b]Hence we see power in terms of masculine attributes, masculine planets.
How do you see power differently and how does that align with feminity or feminine planets, or the asexual behaviours and planets?

Well, a planet signifying power is J, ruler of h, a feminine sign. The planet indicating one form of authority is
G, once again a feminine sign.
Of course, there are male planets for power: also indicating power are A for e,E ruling #Ar
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #66 - on: 29.06.2009 at 15:33 [UT+1] »Hi.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to open a can of worms.
I was using masculinity and femininity to describe behaviours that are traditionally associated with one or other.
I was not saying that women don't have power and I didn't mean to lead this into a discussion about whether
women could wield power effectively. I was solely concerned with understanding what we meant by power inPosts: 3675

the first place, what words we use, and how those correlate with astrology, and it correlates with masculine
energy from masculine planets. Using a man or woman to illustrate the points was just that, not a means ofplaying into the man vs woman war.
I'm really saying that it is the paucity of our conceptualisations of power, and thence of the words that we haveavailable to describe power, that is problematic here. Even though we have a sea change in women'soccupations and activities and expectations, our linguistic categorisations that enable us to make sense of theworld derive from a past that is overtly masculine, male dominated public life and a feminine private/domestic
life, and hence the words and concepts available to us are limited in that way. So power is a masculine concept,
with masculine attributes of energy, control, directness and authority and we can only understand thosesymbolisations through masculine symbols of planets and signs.
Purely and simply we don't have words for power associated with the feminine that are not stigmatised andillegitimised in some way ie as a society, we really aren't keen on Cherie Blair or Hilary Clinton having indirect
power by reason of who they are married to, and the idea that they may influence the thinking of the mostpowerful men in our countries indirectly is not a positive thing in many people's eyes (remember Nancy
Reagan and astrology?). If we turn it round and think about Prince Phillip as consort of the Queen, we see that
men are in that position too, and he is emasculated through that relationship, he is incapable of making
official decisions, but his influence is undoubtedly there, and resented (how would Bill Clinton fit into thatrole?) - women are usually in the position of consort and hence the behaviour is generalised as consultative andfeminine, whether it is a man or a woman in that position. And yet influence through teaching of a professor
is seen as more direct and legitimate. It relates to roles and positions and therefore legitimate authority which again reflects an historical perspective eg when only men were lecturers and able to influence the thoughtof successive generations. I can lecture 250 students that accept my legitimate authority to do so, eventhough I am female in a traditionally masculine role, it is the role, the power of the role that is important, andmy success in that role is substantially dependent on my ability to act out that power which is traditionallymasculine ( again think Thatcher, deepening her voice, and power dressing so that she can act out the role of
PM and be accepted). (Student evaluations of female lecturers include she's got a squeaky voice or a poor
dress sense but never comment on a male lecturers voice quality or dress sense - expectations of power relate
to deep voices and traditional dress and the masculine). It would be great to get the position and then seek to
act it out in a feminine way, but when the role is there and established, is public and external and therefore
masculine associations, what is the feminine way of doing it? It's a bit confusing for everyone.
Astrologically we all have EGJ in us, how it is expressed, how we use it talks of the power we have and how
we use it. The association of men more with their with Sun and Mars highlights that power directly accessed,
and associates power as an intrinsic masculine property. Women are more aligned to Moon/Venus in theircharts so any power they take on relates to those in aspect to the power planets describes an indirect power.
Of course not all women are indirect, not all men are direct. I sit here with AEG all conjunct in a masculine
sign, aspecting J with masculine angles (gAsc, eMC) you can make a fair bet that I'm pretty direct andauthoritative when required and in an Aquarian/11th/airy rationalising/detached/scientific/abstract way ie it'sdifficult to argue with my reasoning and knowledge in a lecture theatre and I do wield that power. The
abundance of masculine energy coalescing together can only act out in a masculine way despite aspects to all 3
feminine planets (BDI), they don't soften that configuration but are affected by it themselves.
Sorry, I'm wittering now. Have I made the whole thing worse?
Simplify. What exactly do we mean by power? Then we can discuss it meaningfully.

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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #67 - on: 29.06.2009 at 15:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Eloize Deschaux on 29.06.2009 at 14:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Hey Judyann
This is where I'm coming from:
Our conceptions of power arise from a male dominated culture in the West (this is culturally specific but widespread) andare attributes of the ruling elite - masculine. Yes we have feminisim, more women in government and contributing
to opinion making discussion, but still cuturally we see power as authoritative not collaborative or truly
democratic.

Posts: 3675

Where women have power, [b]we often see it as ruthlessly aping men (think Thatcher) or manipulative or
insidious (power behind the throne) and not legitimate ie in it's own right, or talking a lot -airing views (Oprah)and not truly effective as in authoritative or legitimate.[/b]Hence we see power in terms of masculine attributes, masculine planets.
How do you see power differently and how does that align with feminity or feminine planets, or the asexual behaviours
and planets?

Well, a planet signifying power isJ, ruler of h, a feminine sign. The planet indicating one form of authority is G, once again a femininesign.
Of course, there are male planets for power: also indicating power are

A for e,E ruling #Ar

When did G and J become feminine? Have I missed out on an important recategorisation of planetaryenergy? In the world where I learnt astrology both are masculine energies.
It is the planetary energy not the sign that is important here. Planets are not their signs, they are their own
entities, they have associations through rulership with signs, but they do not take masculinity or femininityfrom their rulership of a sign. It is interesting that signs that GJ rule ie hj are actually feminine signs, butquite often I observe that people seem to make the mistake of associating them with the masculinity of theirruler - (admittedly the opposite of what you have just done) and probably because their masculine energy
associations seem to divert the femininity of the sign, because masculinity has prevailed in all knowledge for
centuries denigrating the feminine energies. No I don't want to participate in a male/female bashingdiscussion. But we have to understand the categorisations that we are using to discuss everything.
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Eloize Deschaux
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Re: Power« Reply #68 - on: 29.06.2009 at 15:48 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 15:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from Eloize Deschaux on 29.06.2009 at 14:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Hey Judyann
This is where I'm coming from:
Our conceptions of power arise from a male dominated culture in the West (this is culturally specific but
widespread) and are attributes of the ruling elite - masculine. Yes we have feminisim, more women ingovernment and contributing to opinion making discussion, but still cuturally we see power as
authoritative not collaborative or truly democratic.
Where women have power, [b]we often see it as ruthlessly aping men (think Thatcher) or
manipulative or insidious (power behind the throne) and not legitimate ie in it's own right, or
talking a lot -airing views (Oprah) and not truly effective as in authoritative or legitimate.[/b]Hence we see power in terms of masculine attributes, masculine planets.
How do you see power differently and how does that align with feminity or feminine planets, or the asexual
behaviours and planets?

Well, a planet signifying power isJ, ruler of h, a feminine sign. The planet indicating one form of authority is G, once

again a feminine sign.
Of course, there are male planets for power: also indicating power are

When didA for e,E ruling #Ar

G and J become feminine? Have I missed out on an important recategorisation of planetary energy? In the world where I

learnt astrology both are masculine energies.
Planets are not their signs, they are their own entities, they have associations through rulership with signs, but they do not takemasculinity or femininity from their rulership of a sign. It is interesting that signs that

GJ rule ie hj are actually feminine signs, butquite often I observe that people seem to make the mistake of associating them with the masculinity of their ruler - (admittedly the
opposite of what you have just done).

Yes, you're right actually. I just looked it up silly me.
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Lindac7

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Re: Power« Reply #69 - on: 29.06.2009 at 15:54 [UT+1] »Rookish,I don't feel that you've opened a can of worms at all, nor do I think you've made the whole thing worse at all.
It is open and honest discussion like this that allows everyone participating to learn and grow, and I think that's
healthy and helpful.

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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #70 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:06 [UT+1] »You know that according to ancient lore, half of the signs are male and the other half are female? When did h
become male? I know that Mars was the first ruler, but the sign is feminine.
The astrologer Martin Seymour-Smith insisted that J was female and as telling as the Moon about one's
mother.
The divisions Male and Female as they relate to mysticism, metaphysics or classical philosophy are not practicalin matters of gender relations in the modern world in general.
Point in fact: you cannot tell which gender an anonymous chart has. A chart where classically feminine
symbols are prominent does not indicate gender, sexual preference or mannerisms.
Any attempt to use the gender-specific indicators of astrology to prove some modern political agenda isfantasy. Such indicators are a mystery not fully explained.
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judyanne

Member

Re: Power« Reply #71 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:09 [UT+1] »Rookish, it's a very good thing that you've opened this can. I am enjoying the discussion.
Power takes on many forms, and can be wielded in many different circumstances. The women I mentioned,
who are at home with their children during the day, have a lot of power over shaping their children's lives. The
role of mother and nurturer is definitely a powerful one. I know of many Cancerians who are very powerfulpeople, whether or not they acknowlege their power openly.
I think that Syz meant this topic to be an exploration of the many different ways in which power can be shown,and how that correlates with a person's natal chart. So we are indeed taking this topic where it needs to go.
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Ceto*
Member

Re: Power« Reply #72 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:22 [UT+1] »When I think of the ultimate expression of female power, it is always all encompassing and all consuming. Thisis obviously threatening not only to males but also to women. We have never been exposed to powerful
women, all we have are myths and legends which allude to a time when the Goddess, as an expression of this,was the supreme authority.
Women who become powerful in a world where power is defined by men.... very similar to black people
succeeding in a world were success has been defined by white people and their culture.

Posts: 1458

Sometimes I think that women are scared of their own power.

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #73 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:26 [UT+1] »I can see that it is forgotten that men are not entitled to power. Not all men are equally powerful. Some men
will have more power than others. Is this a problem needing a solution? Should we have a revolution thatguarantees all men equal power? all women equal power?
It is a fairy tale to think that men can have the power any time they want it.
Furthermore, in ordinary conversation there is talk of power struggles and office politics. One cliquedominating the office is a form of power, but it is not admirable. It is not something to aspire to. Most officepolitics is slimy and dreary. Why is wallowing in the mud an advancement.?
Most people with power take it. It is not dispensed to them. Most heroes risk their necks because they areprotecting us from someone with power.
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Lindac7
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Re: Power« Reply #74 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Cygnet on 29.06.2009 at 16:22 [UT+1]:

Sometimes I think that women are scared of their own power.

Sometimes I think that some women are oblivious to their own power - they don't believe they have any, andso they don't try.

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Lindac7

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Re: Power« Reply #75 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:26 [UT+1]:
I can see that it is forgotten that men are not entitled to power. Not all men are equally powerful. Some men will have more power thanothers. Is this a problem needing a solution? Should we have a revolution that guarantees all men equal power? all women equal power?
It is a fairy tale to think that men can have the power any time they want it.
Furthermore, in ordinary conversation there is talk of power struggles and office politics. One clique dominating the office is a form of
power, but it is not admirable. It is not something to aspire to. Most office politics is slimy and dreary. Why is wallowing in the mud an
advancement.?
Most people with power take it. It is not dispensed to them. Most heroes risk their necks because they are protecting us from someone
with power.

Posts: 2029
Gender:Stephen,I haven't seen anyone here suggesting that all men are entitled to power, or that all men have equal power, orthat men can have power any time they want it.
What I have seen is statements to the effect that men still hold most of the authoritative power (those thathave it), while women are slowly gaining some of that power.

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Jeanette
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Re: Power« Reply #76 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:44 [UT+1] »J3rd - G 7th - E 11th. I sort of don't feel comfortable around other people. Could this have something to
do with power. I experience J mainly as the feeling of powerlessness whether it is being the middle of fivechildren and the only girl (powerful and powerless at the same time). In the workplace I am usually irritated byneighbours - people are affected by my silence and as much as I would like an harmonious immediate work
environment it usually isn't if I'm there, but that usually ends up being a good thing with lots of long-standing
tensions coming to the surface. It can be quite ruthless this wrecking ball kind of power - before I knew about
astrology I did some work involving applying archetypes to the astrological wheel - the Destroyer archetypeshowed up in the 3rd house, but it does seem that it was the destruction of what really needed to be destroyed(disgusting hypocrisy, two-faced lying etc...) It helps to be aware of this energy though. Another thing I
noticed is that both the primary/intermdiate school and the high school I went to were completely renovatedthe year after I left.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #77 - on: 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1] »Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power or athletic
power. Artistic power is talent essentially and athletic power is the ability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks to some Old
Boy Network. It is very hard to have artistic power if you weren't born with it. I doubt we can solve that one
politically. In the case of athletic power, you can change the rules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guessthat one has a large political element.
Politcal power is not new. Once there were Kings with Divine Right approaching Absolute Power. That was not
sophisticated. It was only helpful when the King himself was the descent sort, but it was always unjust. In
those times, according to the rules, it might just as easily be a woman with Divine Right approaching Absolute
Power. The Queen.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #78 - on: 29.06.2009 at 17:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:06 [UT+1]:
You know that according to ancient lore, half of the signs are male and the other half are female? When did

h become male? I know that

Mars was the first ruler, but the sign is feminine.
The astrologer Martin Seymour-Smith insisted that

J was female and as telling as the Moon about one's mother.

The divisions Male and Female as they relate to mysticism, metaphysics or classical philosophy are not practical in matters of gender
relations in the modern world in general.

Posts: 3675

Point in fact: you cannot tell which gender an anonymous chart has. A chart where classicallyfeminine symbols are prominent does not indicate gender, sexual preference or mannerisms.
Any attempt to use the gender-specific indicators of astrology to prove some modern political agenda is fantasy. Such indicators are amystery not fully explained.

Totally true. But once you know which gender the native is, you look more to Sun/Mars or Moon/Venus asimportant indicators to understand how they manage, exert or interact with power they come across. Without
the gender, you can make some generalisations about how direct/indirect they will be in managing power basedon planets in signs and aspects. As I was trying to say earlier - you would look at my AmEmGk and draw
some pretty accurate conclusions about how I operationalise power without knowing my gender. Once you
know I am female, you would start looking at how B/D interact with the power planets and draw someconclusions on how emotional aspects of handling power may give me more problems.
Steve - you seem quite fond of Martin Seymour-Smith - I know that Pluto is only 80 years old but do you
know what traditions/thoughts Seymour-Smith is drawing on to claim Pluto as feminine? I don't find it anatural association for J to represent the mother (and my mother had AEJ conjunct).

And again, I agree masculine/feminine - 2 parts of the whole etc. But culturally I think we have reified
masculine power at the expense of understanding the feminine. I think that's where I'm trying to go here.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #79 - on: 29.06.2009 at 18:06 [UT+1] »Seymour-Smith was not the last word in objectivity, but he was more emperical than the average astrologer,
and he was a very keen observer. He thought the Moon was much more important than the Sun, especially if
accurate interpretation were your aim.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #80 - on: 29.06.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 16:09 [UT+1]:
Rookish, it's a very good thing that you've opened this can. I am enjoying the discussion.
Power takes on many forms, and can be wielded in many different circumstances. The women I mentioned, who are at home with theirchildren during the day, have a lot of power over shaping their children's lives. The role of mother and nurturer is definitely a powerfulone. I know of many Cancerians who are very powerful people, whether or not they acknowlege their power openly.
I think that Syz meant this topic to be an exploration of the many different ways in which power can be shown, and how that correlateswith a person's natal chart. So we are indeed taking this topic where it needs to go.

Posts: 3675

True. A hidden power, I'm making the association with Cancer in many ways, protected in it's shell, yet
important in holding things together. I love this about people - men and women - with strong Cancerian traits
in their charts, their strength in their values to give to others they hold close.
That power is assuredly there, bringing up a new generation, giving values, caring and nurturing. It takes
thought and responsibility and care and belief. And it is acknowledged as essential to society ('it's the parent's
fault'). But it is denigrated as well, it is not valued deeply by our society. Children are, careers are, money is.
Caring and nurturing are things that somehow are expected to happen without too much direction or care forthose that are supposed to do it and we're back to the feminine and the power of the mother that is expected
to be instinctual and is outgrown as the child takes its place in the world ( the connections are still in place but
the power has been reduced).
What does all this say about Cancer and power - the insidious, the instinctual - the power over less powerfulindividuals (children) at home ie they have not voluntarily chosen the parent as the power in the family (unless
you believe in karma and reincarnation). It is again seen as indirect, unchosen, legitimate to a certain point,
adulthood and then parental power is diminished. Some may even consider that once children go to school
parental power to inculcate cultural values and behaviours are reduced as well as the child comes into contact
with the public, the external, the hierarchical and hegemonic power of organisation and society, where thestate, the paternalistic takes over the socialisation of children.
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Steve3

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Re: Power« Reply #81 - on: 29.06.2009 at 18:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Cygnet on 29.06.2009 at 06:11 [UT+1]:
Syzygy - I first saw this painting in Umberto Eco's book On Beauty, it's Sappho painted by Charles-Auguste Mengin.

Ahhh... another picture of a woman for my guitar room ... when I get it done.
I am just glad I never met her. She would have too much power over me.
I see the face of Air.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #82 - on: 29.06.2009 at 18:30 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 16:09 [UT+1]:

I think that Syz meant this topic to be an exploration of the many different ways in which power can be shown, and how that correlateswith a person's natal chart. So we are indeed taking this topic where it needs to go.

point taken - I'll give it some more thought!
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #83 - on: 29.06.2009 at 19:06 [UT+1] »Five thousand years ago before civilization as we know it, everything human depended on power. There wassurvival of the fittest, might-makes-right, an the Law of the Jungle. You had your way by wielding a club, aspear, or a knife.
This evolved over a long period of time into the feudal system where lords or kings (even queens) had nearabsolute power. At this point we were beyond the point where a strong man with a club could pound a woman
unconscious in order to take her home as a sex slave. Even in medieval times, certain Cave Man etiquette wasdisallowed, and death might be the punishment. Even at that stage, there was progress.
Finally we evolved to the most free of all societies before it, the USA. Here power was divided into threedivisions of government who could each check the power of the other so that power could not increase to somelevel that was menacing to the public.
Notice that evolution starts with Power above All, and culminates with severe restrictions on power. With each
Step of Progress, power is diminished.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #84 - on: 29.06.2009 at 19:43 [UT+1] »Quote:
I think that Syz meant this topic to be an exploration of the many different ways in which power can be shown, and how that correlateswith a person's natal chart. So we are indeed taking this topic where it needs to go.

Maybe you want to run the forum and set the guidelines and limit freedom.
Ask the typical astrologer what most symbolizes power in the chart, and they usually say J. Power is one of
the keywords for J. Now all charts have J, so one way for J to be prominent in the chart and thus in the life
is if it is angular. Now I will briefly quote another astrologer in order to keep from seeing only my opinion.
Here is Seymour-Smith:"Pluto-Asc or MC: Powerful, authoritarian; transformative; chaotic; may make unpleasant changes in theirenvironment after getting power by fraud (trine); bully; treads on the susceptibilities of others."
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Steve3

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Re: Power« Reply #85 - on: 29.06.2009 at 19:49 [UT+1] »memo for record:
any similarity in names or apparent biological gender that I might have with other members of thisforum is entirely a random coincidence and does not indicate similar thoughts, beliefs, behaviors,or delusions.
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Lindac7
Member

Re: Power« Reply #86 - on: 29.06.2009 at 19:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 29.06.2009 at 19:49 [UT+1]:
memo for record:
any similarity in names or apparent biological gender that I might have with other members of this forum is entirely arandom coincidence and does not indicate similar thoughts, beliefs, behaviors, or delusions.

Good one, Steve! Thanks for the laugh!
Even laughter is powerful - it's the best medicine.
Posts: 2029
Gender:P.S. I don't think you need to worry - I think we all have you two very clearly separated in our brains. Your
energies come across very differently. I certainly would never mistake one of you for the other. You two havevery different power bases that are instantly recognizable.

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Re: Power« Reply #87 - on: 29.06.2009 at 20:04 [UT+1] »Ok i have to toot my little horn here, I want to say what power feels like to me. I said feel - power is a feeling,whether it is the direct power of a king, or power of a shy artist, power is felt. Felt by the people who observe
it. That power leaves a mark on the world, moves people, inspires people. Power can be either good or bad,subtle or profound, long lasting, or fleeting, masculine or feminine- therefore I think it can be shown in lots
and lots of different ways in a chart.

Posts: 1859

An example of one kind of power is shown through someone like Martin Luther King jr. His power was his voice,and his compassion, as well as his courage. I see he has A n J in the 3rd, giving him a power voice, he also
has b asc, giving him the persistance and the will power to keep going. A m MC C in the tenth, making thispower / powerful speeches obvious to the world. B and D in compassionate l... the list probably can go on
and on.. but i just wanted to make the point that power can be seen in so many many different ways.

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Steve3
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Re: Power« Reply #88 - on: 29.06.2009 at 20:14 [UT+1] »MLK Jr.... he gave people a vision.
very powerful.
I try to do that at work when I am looking for funding.

'course some people will never see because their eyes are fixated on the inside of their lower digestive tract.

speaking of work...gotta go.

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #89 - on: 29.06.2009 at 20:34 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 29.06.2009 at 19:49 [UT+1]:
memo for record:
any similarity in names or apparent biological gender that I might have with other members of this forum is entirely arandom coincidence and does not indicate similar thoughts, beliefs, behaviors, or delusions.

Steve, you are very funny and very powerful
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #90 - on: 29.06.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1]:
Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power or athletic power. Artistic power is talentessentially and athletic power is the ability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks to some Old Boy Network. It is very hard
to have artistic power if you weren't born with it. I doubt we can solve that one politically. In the case of athletic power, you can change
the rules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guess that one has a large political element.

Artistic power which you describe as talent, has to be nurtured. It doesn't just appear fully formed in theindividual. If society doesn't allow for someone with artistic talent to nurture that talent, then it wont develop
and it wont exist. In the past it wasnt socially acceptable for women to be artists and that is why there are no
old Mistresses, only Old Masters.
I would argue that artistic power has everything to do with politics
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #91 - on: 29.06.2009 at 21:42 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 19:06 [UT+1]:
Five thousand years ago before civilization as we know it, everything human depended on power. There was survival of the fittest, mightmakes-right, an the Law of the Jungle. You had your way by wielding a club, a spear, or a knife.
This evolved over a long period of time into the feudal system where lords or kings (even queens) had near absolute power. At this point
we were beyond the point where a strong man with a club could pound a woman unconscious in order to take her home as a sex slave.
Even in medieval times, certain Cave Man etiquette was disallowed, and death might be the punishment. Even at that stage, there wasprogress.
Finally we evolved to the most free of all societies before it, the USA. Here power was divided into three divisions of government who
could each check the power of the other so that power could not increase to some level that was menacing to the public.
Notice that evolution starts with Power above All, and culminates with severe restrictions on power. With each Step of Progress, power isdiminished.

Actually ive read other theories that say we evolved because of our ability to share and communicate. Leaps ofevolution and insight comes from communication and the sharing of knowledge.
Its a bit like the fallacy (phallusy?) of sowing of the wild oats all over the place to ensure genetic survival. Men
actually had/have a better chance of their offspring surviving if they stayed with the woman, brought home
some meat occasionally and kept others away, rather than out sowing their seed all over the shop. Also
biologically, women arent fertile all the time, so if you hang around, you have a better chance of making her
pregnant with your seed
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Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #92 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:09 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1]:
OED:
power
• noun1 the ability to do something or act in a particular way.
2 the capacity to influence other people or the course of events.
3 a right or authority given or delegated to a person or body.
4 political authority or control.
5 physical strength or force.
6 a country viewed in terms of its international influence and military strength: a world power.
7 capacity or performance of an engine or other device.
8 energy that is produced by mechanical, electrical, or other means.
9 Physics the rate of doing work, measured in watts or horse power. Mathematics the product obtained when a number is multiplied byitself a certain number of times.
These are all masculine attributes aren't they? Energy, strength, authority, control.
Mars, Saturn, Pluto.

Very interesting. This is the Oxford English Dictionary. Our language says a lot. This definition of power isalmost totally masculine. Seems to have a lot to do with control, strength and force.
It also seems to be that we have to give these things power in order for them to be powerful and not just write
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #93 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 19:06 [UT+1]:
Five thousand years ago before civilization as we know it, everything human depended on power. There was survival of thefittest, might-makes-right, an the Law of the Jungle. You had your way by wielding a club, a spear, or a knife.
This evolved over a long period of time into the feudal system where lords or kings (even queens) had near absolute
power. At this point we were beyond the point where a strong man with a club could pound a woman unconscious in orderto take her home as a sex slave. Even in medieval times, certain Cave Man etiquette was disallowed, and death might be
the punishment. Even at that stage, there was progress.
Finally we evolved to the most free of all societies before it, the USA. Here power was divided into three divisions ofgovernment who could each check the power of the other so that power could not increase to some level that was
menacing to the public.
Notice that evolution starts with Power above All, and culminates with severe restrictions on power. With each Step ofProgress, power is diminished.

Actually ive read other theories that say we evolved because of our ability to share and communicate. Leaps of evolution and insightcomes from communication and the sharing of knowledge.
Its a bit like the fallacy (phallusy?) of sowing of the wild oats all over the place to ensure genetic survival. Men actually had/have a betterchance of their offspring surviving if they stayed with the woman, brought home some meat occasionally and kept others away, rather
than out sowing their seed all over the shop. Also biologically, women arent fertile all the time, so if you hang around, you have a betterchance of making her pregnant with your seed

I never said this explains evolution, or that it is the vehicle of evolution. The changes that I showed from 5000
years ago, 500 years ago, and present are quite true. I cannot imagine what you think is implausible. I don't
know why you are concerned with "men sowing their seed all over the place". What's up with that?
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #94 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:28 [UT+1] »Many of the women on this thread have implied that power is about gender and the war between the sexes. I
think that is deeply confused, deluded, and egregiously contemptous of males.

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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #95 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:42 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:28 [UT+1]:
Many of the women on this thread have implied that power is about gender and the war between the sexes. I think that is deeply
confused, deluded, and egregiously contemptous of males.

Well we can agree to disagree, but i think there are power issues associated with gender, but im not trying tostart a war on the sexes, and now you are defining the contributors on this thread by their gender. Why botherdoing that ?
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #96 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:42 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1]:
OED:
power
• noun1 the ability to do something or act in a particular way.
2 the capacity to influence other people or the course of events.
3 a right or authority given or delegated to a person or body.
4 political authority or control.
5 physical strength or force.
6 a country viewed in terms of its international influence and military strength: a world power.
7 capacity or performance of an engine or other device.
8 energy that is produced by mechanical, electrical, or other means.
9 Physics the rate of doing work, measured in watts or horse power. Mathematics the product obtained when a number is multiplied byitself a certain number of times.
These are all masculine attributes aren't they? Energy, strength, authority, control.
Mars, Saturn, Pluto.

This is quite different from a Politcal website or an Anti-male website, even though many participants arepolitical and many participants are anit-male.
The difference is astrology speciafically and metaphysics generally.
Now, to be involved in astrology and metaphysics and virulently anti-male is the height disengeniousness.
Every chart whether male or female has Mars, Saturn, and Pluto. Every chart whether male or female hasMoon, Venus, and Neptune. Everyone has everything. If your Mars, Saturn, and Pluto are debilitated, don't
blame the male population. They did not create your birthchart -- you did.
Most schools of metaphysics suggest that if you are a woman in this life who is badly handled by men, who isunfairly treated by man, there is a good possibility that you were an abusive male in a past life. Men alive
today who are mean to women will probably reincarnate as a victim of such behavior.
Grow up. Be honest. Get smart.
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Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #97 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1] »More Definitions:pow·er (pour)n.
1. The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
2. A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude. Often used in the plural: her powers of concentration.
3. Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might. See Synonyms at strength.
4. The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority.
5. A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others: the western powers.
6. The might of a nation, political organization, or similar group.
7. Forcefulness; effectiveness: a novel of unusual power.
8. Chiefly Upper Southern U.S. A large number or amount. See Regional Note at powerful.
9.
a. The energy or motive force by which a physical system or machine is operated: turbines turned by steam
power; a sailing ship driven by wind power.
b. The capacity of a system or machine to operate: a vehicle that runs under its own power.
c. Electrical or mechanical energy, especially as used to assist or replace human energy.
d. Electricity supplied to a home, building, or community: a storm that cut off power to the whole region.
10. Physics The rate at which work is done, expressed as the amount of work per unit time and commonlymeasured in units such as the watt and horsepower.
11. Electricity
a. The product of applied potential difference and current in a direct-current circuit.
b. The product of the effective values of the voltage and current with the cosine of the phase angle between
current and voltage in an alternating-current circuit.
12. Mathematics
a. See exponent.
b. The number of elements in a finite set.
13. Statistics The probability of rejecting the null hypothesis where it is false.
14. A measure of the magnification of an optical instrument, such as a microscope or telescope.
15. powers Christianity The sixth of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology.
16. Archaic An armed force.
adj.
1. Of or relating to political, social, or economic control: a power struggle; a power base.
2. Operated with mechanical or electrical energy in place of bodily exertion: a power tool; power car windows.
3. Of or relating to the generation or transmission of electricity: power companies; power lines.
4. Informal Of or relating to influential business or professional practices: a pinstriped suit with a power tie;
met with high-level executives at a power breakfast.
tr.v. pow·ered, pow·er·ing, pow·ers
To supply with power, especially mechanical power.
Idiom:
powers that beThose who hold effective power in a system or situation: a plan vetoed by the powers that be.
[Middle English, from Old French pooir, to be able, power, from Vulgar Latin *potre, to be able, from
Latin potis, able, powerful; see poti- in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton
Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #98 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1]:
Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power or athletic power. Artistic
power is talent essentially and athletic power is the ability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks to some Old Boy Network.
It is very hard to have artistic power if you weren't born with it. I doubt we can solve that one politically. In the case of
athletic power, you can change the rules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guess that one has a large politicalelement.

Artistic power which you describe as talent, has to be nurtured. It doesn't just appear fully formed in the individual. If society doesn'tallow for someone with artistic talent to nurture that talent, then it wont develop and it wont exist. In the past it wasnt socially acceptablefor women to be artists and that is why there are no old Mistresses, only Old Masters.
I would argue that artistic power has everything to do with politics

What do you want me to do about? It wasn't me. I did not create the world. I did not live in those oppressive
times. I do not oppress talented women. You have no excuse to be harrassing or abusive of males in general.
Espeically those males who do not submit passively to your opinions. You are not motivated by a great love
for social justice, you and the others think you have a slick liscence for bad behavior.
Men: Bad; Women; Good is not the name of this thread or any other where the same theme dominates.
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IP LoggedVivisha

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #99 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:28 [UT+1]:
Many of the women on this thread have implied that power is about gender and the war between the sexes. I think that is deeply
confused, deluded, and egregiously contemptous of males.

Quote from Stephen Baxter on 28.06.2009 at 11:59 [UT+1]:
To stem the tide of misandry, and snip the conflict of interest, perhaps moderators should be male.

http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1241676854/308#308

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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #100 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:25 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 19:06 [UT+1]:
Five thousand years ago before civilization as we know it, everything human depended on power. There wassurvival of the fittest, might-makes-right, an the Law of the Jungle. You had your way by wielding a club, aspear, or a knife.
This evolved over a long period of time into the feudal system where lords or kings (even queens) had nearabsolute power. At this point we were beyond the point where a strong man with a club could pound awoman unconscious in order to take her home as a sex slave. Even in medieval times, certain Cave Man
etiquette was disallowed, and death might be the punishment. Even at that stage, there was progress.
Finally we evolved to the most free of all societies before it, the USA. Here power was divided into threedivisions of government who could each check the power of the other so that power could not increase tosome level that was menacing to the public.
Notice that evolution starts with Power above All, and culminates with severe restrictions on power. With
each Step of Progress, power is diminished.

Actually ive read other theories that say we evolved because of our ability to share and communicate. Leaps of evolution
and insight comes from communication and the sharing of knowledge.
Its a bit like the fallacy (phallusy?) of sowing of the wild oats all over the place to ensure genetic survival. Men actually
had/have a better chance of their offspring surviving if they stayed with the woman, brought home some meatoccasionally and kept others away, rather than out sowing their seed all over the shop. Also biologically, women arent
fertile all the time, so if you hang around, you have a better chance of making her pregnant with your seed

I never said this explains evolution, or that it is the vehicle of evolution. The changes that I showed from 5000 years ago, 500 years ago,and present are quite true. I cannot imagine what you think is implausible. I don't know why you are concerned with "men sowing theirseed all over the place". What's up with that?

I just stated that there are theories out there that say that human evolution may have been dependent on the
sharing of resources and knowledge, not just the ability to wield the biggest club.
And other theories to suggest that it wasnt the alpha male who went out and sowed his wild seed everywherethat had the highest rate of reproduction, rather it was the man who stayed around and nurtured his
family/and was nurtured by his family - that had a better chance of genetic survival.
Its probably a combination of many many things, its all just opinion anyhow
I think this thread has talked about the idea that there are many different types of power and many different
ways of defining it. The oxford dictionary does to me, seem to define power in masculine terms
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IP Loggedleigha9

Member

Re: Power« Reply #101 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1] »What are masculine terms... If you think such words like 'force' and 'strength' is masculine than for sure you
think 'power' is a masculine term. Which we know is not the case.

Posts: 1859
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IP LoggedLisalu
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #102 - on: 29.06.2009 at 22:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:50 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1]:
Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power or athletic
power. Artistic power is talent essentially and athletic power is the ability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks to some Old
Boy Network. It is very hard to have artistic power if you weren't born with it. I

doubt we can solve that one politically. In the case of athletic power, you can change therules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guess that one has a large political element.

Artistic power which you describe as talent, has to be nurtured. It doesn't just appear fully formed in the individual. Ifsociety doesn't allow for someone with artistic talent to nurture that talent, then it
wont develop and it wont exist. In the past it wasnt socially acceptable for women to be artists and that is
why there are no old Mistresses, only Old Masters.
I would argue that artistic power has everything to do with politics

What do you want me to do about? It wasn't me. I did not create the world. I did not live in those oppressive times. I do not oppress
talented women. You have not excuse to be harrassing or abusive of males in general. Espeically those males who do not submit passively
to your opinions. You are not motivated by a great love for social justice, you and the others think you have a slick liscence for bad
behavior.

Im not asking you to do anything about this. Im not blaming anything on you. Its not meant as an attack onyou.
Your statement seemed to say, to me, that artistic talent = artistic power and artistic power has nothing to dowith politics.
And i disagreed. I said i thought artistic power had everything to do with politics.

Thats all. We can agree todisagree.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #103 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1]:
Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power or athletic power. Artistic
power is talent essentially and athletic power is the ability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks to some Old Boy Network.
It is very hard to have artistic power if you weren't born with it. I doubt we can solve that one politically. In the case of
athletic power, you can change the rules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guess that one has a large politicalelement.

Artistic power which you describe as talent, has to be nurtured. It doesn't just appear fully formed in the individual. If society doesn'tallow for someone with artistic talent to nurture that talent, then it wont develop and it wont exist. In the past it wasnt socially acceptablefor women to be artists and that is why there are no old Mistresses, only Old Masters.
I would argue that artistic power has everything to do with politics

Clearly you are resentful that I point out that artistic power is talent. You are deeply resentful that I said men
are not to blame if you are not talented.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #104 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 22:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:50 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1]:
Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power
or athletic power. Artistic power is talent essentially and athletic power is theability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks
to some Old Boy Network. It is very hard to have artistic power if you

weren't born with it. I doubt we can solve that one politically. In thecase of athletic power, you can change the rules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guessthat one has a large political element.

Artistic power which you describe as talent, has to be nurtured. It doesn't just appear fully formed in theindividual. If society doesn't allow for someone with artistic talent to nurturethat talent, then it wont develop and it wont exist. In the past it wasnt sociallyacceptable for women to be artists and that is why there are no old Mistresses, only Old Masters.
I would argue that artistic power has everything to do with politics

What do you want me to do about? It wasn't me. I did not create the world. I did not live in those oppressive times. I do
not oppress talented women. You have not excuse to be harrassing or abusive of males in general. Espeically those males
who do not submit passively to your opinions. You are not motivated by a great love for social justice, you and the others
think you have a slick liscence for bad behavior.

Im not asking you to do anything about this. Im not blaming anything on you. Its not meant as an attack on you.
Your statement seemed to say, to me, that artistic talent = artistic power and artistic power has nothing to do with politics.
And i disagreed. I said i thought artistic power had everything to do with politics. Thats all. We can agree to disagree.

This is an astrology site not a political site. My practice of astrology has little to do with politics, and I have
objected to the attempt to inject politics into everything at the site. I object to the very strong and persitentanti-male bias of the site. The resentment is strongest toward those males with the self-respect to object.
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Just_meEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #105 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 16:45 [UT+1]:
Sometimes people do not mean 'power' in the political sense. They might mean artistic power or athletic power. Artistic
power is talent essentially and athletic power is the ability to entertain.
I do not think men have conspired to have all the artistic power. They do not dispense it thanks to some Old Boy Network.
It is very hard to have artistic power if you weren't born with it. I doubt we can solve that one politically. In the case of
athletic power, you can change the rules, bribe an official, or train very hard. I guess that one has a large politicalelement.

Artistic power which you describe as talent, has to be nurtured. It doesn't just appear fully formed in the individual. If society doesn'tallow for someone with artistic talent to nurture that talent, then it wont develop and it wont exist. In the past it wasnt socially acceptablefor women to be artists and that is why there are no old Mistresses, only Old Masters.
I would argue that artistic power has everything to do with politics

My brain is addled at to due to the powerful dentists.
The concise statement above seems to have been ignored. Talent may lay dormant. Nurturing, practicing, andworking are necessary.
Writers are not born with pens in their hands and a full command of any language. Or spin-doctors for thatmatter.
Talent is part of the equation. How can that be denied?
An aside: Power? Pluto is not a planet anymore. It is not precisely round. Power to apply knowledge that isvague and new. May be correct or not. Hmmmm.
Edited to add: I was late, sorry.
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #106 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:11 [UT+1] »I wonder about the power of entertainment that bestows someone with an incredible amount of power.
Think about the entertainment industry in our society, successful entertainers get lots of money and money =power.

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Just_meEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #107 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Vivisha on 29.06.2009 at 22:51 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:28 [UT+1]:
Many of the women on this thread have implied that power is about gender and the war between the sexes. I think that isdeeply confused, deluded, and egregiously contemptous of males.

Quote from Stephen Baxter on 28.06.2009 at 11:59 [UT+1]:
To stem the tide of misandry, and snip the conflict of interest, perhaps moderators should be male.

http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1241676854/308#308

Thanks, a hard day and my first good laugh.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #108 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1] »Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
What are masculine terms... If you think such words like 'force' and 'strength' is masculine than for sure you think 'power' is a masculine
term. Which we know is not the case.

If your chart has Mars, Saturn, AND Pluto, what does it matter about men, any men? This is astrology. Men
did not create your chart.
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Shokk

Member

Re: Power« Reply #109 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Just_me on 29.06.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:

An aside: Power? Pluto is not a planet anymore. It is not precisely round. Power to apply knowledge that is vague and new. May be correct
or not. Hmmmm.

Posts: 226

Wait...we're deciding that Pluto can't signify anything because the IAU calls it a dwarf planet?
Am I misreading this sentence or what?
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #110 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:21 [UT+1] »Quote from Just_me on 29.06.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:
The concise statement above seems to have been ignored. Talent may lay dormant. Nurturing, practicing, and working are necessary.
Writers are not born with pens in their hands and a full command of any language. Or spin-doctors for that matter.
Talent is part of the equation. How can that be denied?

My point was that dormant talent or talent that is under the bed that no one sees does not have power toinfluence people
My point was that talent does not necessarily equal power
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Just_meEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #111 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:23 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 23:11 [UT+1]:
I wonder about the power of entertainment that bestows someone with an incredible amount of power.
Think about the entertainment industry in our society, successful entertainers get lots of money and money = power.

Money does equal power. But some say "Let them eat cake". Not a good idea.
Hereditary money brings more power. Quiet money.
Loud money like Paris Hilton gets nuked.
I will quiet my dumb brain and go back to that behemoth of tasks. EWWWW.

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Just_meEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #112 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 23:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from Just_me on 29.06.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:
The concise statement above seems to have been ignored. Talent may lay dormant. Nurturing, practicing, and working arenecessary.
Writers are not born with pens in their hands and a full command of any language. Or spin-doctors for that matter.
Talent is part of the equation. How can that be denied?

My point was that dormant talent or talent that is under the bed that no one sees does not have power to influence people

I was agreeing with you. Sorry that I did not communicate correctly. I do concur.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #113 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:25 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 19:06 [UT+1]:
Five thousand years ago before civilization as we know it, everything human depended on power. There wassurvival of the fittest, might-makes-right, an the Law of the Jungle. You had your way by wielding a club, aspear, or a knife.
This evolved over a long period of time into the feudal system where lords or kings (even queens) had nearabsolute power. At this point we were beyond the point where a strong man with a club could pound awoman unconscious in order to take her home as a sex slave. Even in medieval times, certain Cave Man
etiquette was disallowed, and death might be the punishment. Even at that stage, there was progress.
Finally we evolved to the most free of all societies before it, the USA. Here power was divided into threedivisions of government who could each check the power of the other so that power could not increase tosome level that was menacing to the public.
Notice that evolution starts with Power above All, and culminates with severe restrictions on power. With
each Step of Progress, power is diminished.

Actually ive read other theories that say we evolved because of our ability to share and communicate. Leaps of evolution
and insight comes from communication and the sharing of knowledge.
Its a bit like the fallacy (phallusy?) of sowing of the wild oats all over the place to ensure genetic survival. Men actually
had/have a better chance of their offspring surviving if they stayed with the woman, brought home some meatoccasionally and kept others away, rather than out sowing their seed all over the shop. Also biologically, women arent
fertile all the time, so if you hang around, you have a better chance of making her pregnant with your seed

I never said this explains evolution, or that it is the vehicle of evolution. The changes that I showed from 5000 years ago, 500 years ago,and present are quite true. I cannot imagine what you think is implausible. I don't know why you are concerned with "men sowing theirseed all over the place". What's up with that?

You are obsessed with blaming men for everything. You are excited by any man who objects and offers arational alternative to this defenseless kind of diatribe. "men sowing their seed" indeed.
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IP Loggedleigha9
Member

Re: Power« Reply #114 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
What are masculine terms... If you think such words like 'force' and 'strength' is masculine than for sure you think 'power'
is a masculine term. Which we know is not the case.

If your chart has Mars, Saturn, AND Pluto, what does it matter about men, any men? This is astrology. Men did not create your chart.

Posts: 1859

I say this because power is not feminine nor masculine - it is both, but when you say such words are masculine
than you are giving all that power to men.
Yes i do have mars, saturn and pluto in my chart! I therefore idenfiy with men, yet i am a woman.... this iswhat i am saying, the difference between masculine and feminine are present in both men and woman.
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IP LoggedLisalu

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #115 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:28 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
What are masculine terms... If you think such words like 'force' and 'strength' is masculine than for sure you think 'power'
is a masculine term. Which we know is not the case.

If your chart has Mars, Saturn, AND Pluto, what does it matter about men, any men? This is astrology. Men did not create your chart.

It doesnt matter anything about men
Stephen Baxter: perhaps you and i shouldn't attempt to communicate, I don't think you and i are speaking thesame language.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #116 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 19:06 [UT+1]:
Five thousand years ago before civilization as we know it, everything human depended on power. There was survival of thefittest, might-makes-right, an the Law of the Jungle. You had your way by wielding a club, a spear, or a knife.
This evolved over a long period of time into the feudal system where lords or kings (even queens) had near absolute
power. At this point we were beyond the point where a strong man with a club could pound a woman unconscious in orderto take her home as a sex slave. Even in medieval times, certain Cave Man etiquette was disallowed, and death might be
the punishment. Even at that stage, there was progress.
Finally we evolved to the most free of all societies before it, the USA. Here power was divided into three divisions ofgovernment who could each check the power of the other so that power could not increase to some level that was
menacing to the public.
Notice that evolution starts with Power above All, and culminates with severe restrictions on power. With each Step ofProgress, power is diminished.

Actually ive read other theories that say we evolved because of our ability to share and communicate. Leaps of evolution and insightcomes from communication and the sharing of knowledge.

Its a bit like the fallacy (phallusy?) of sowing of the wild oats all over the place to ensure genetic survival. Men actually
had/have a better chance of their offspring surviving if they stayed with the woman, brought home some meat occasionally and kept
others away, rather than out sowing their seed all over the shop. Also biologically, women arent fertile all the time, so if you hang around,you have a better chance of making her pregnant with your seedThis is an attempt to slur males.
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #117 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:33 [UT+1] »Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 23:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
What are masculine terms... If you think such words like 'force' and 'strength' is masculine than for sure you
think 'power' is a masculine term. Which we know is not the case.

If your chart has Mars, Saturn, AND Pluto, what does it matter about men, any men? This is astrology. Men did not create
your chart.

I say this because power is not feminine nor masculine - it is both, but when you say such words are masculine than you are giving allthat power to men.
Yes i do have mars, saturn and pluto in my chart! I therefore idenfiy with men, yet i am a woman.... this is what i am saying, thedifference between masculine and feminine are present in both men and woman.

Leigh, i agree with you that power is not masculine or feminine and yes we all have mars saturn pluto and lets
not forget the sun.
All i was trying to say was that the definition supplied from the Oxford English Dictionary about Power seemed
to be describing power in words we traditionally subscribe to masculine behaviour
Thats all - not an attack on the sexes, not hard core separatist radical lesbian feminist man hating power
subjugating, resentful, blaming and whatever else
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IP LoggedLisalu
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #118 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 23:05 [UT+1]:
Clearly you are resentful that I point out that artistic power is talent. You are deeply resentful that I said men are not to blame if you are
not talented.

I am not resentful, just a little annoyed that you seem to misunderstand me.
i would agree that artistic power is talent, but i would disagree that artistic talent always equates to power.
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IP Loggedleigha9

Member

Re: Power« Reply #119 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 23:33 [UT+1]:
Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 23:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from leigha9 on 29.06.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
What are masculine terms... If you think such words like 'force' and 'strength' is masculine thanfor sure you think 'power' is a masculine term. Which we know is not the case.

Posts: 1859

If your chart has Mars, Saturn, AND Pluto, what does it matter about men, any men? This is astrology. Men
did not create your chart.

I say this because power is not feminine nor masculine - it is both, but when you say such words are masculine than you
are giving all that power to men.
Yes i do have mars, saturn and pluto in my chart! I therefore idenfiy with men, yet i am a woman.... this is what i am
saying, the difference between masculine and feminine are present in both men and woman.

Leigh, i agree with you that power is not masculine or feminine and yes we all have mars saturn pluto and lets not forget the sun.
All i was trying to say was that the definition supplied from the Oxford English Dictionary about Power seemed to be describing power inwords we traditionally subscribe to masculine behaviour
Thats all - not an attack on the sexes, not hard core separatist radical lesbian feminist man hating power subjugating, resentful, blaming
and whatever else

Hahah, yes yes I understand. I didnt really take it that way. I was just trying to make my point - I do
understand that those are tradionally masculine terms - but i dont know if they really are masculine terms.
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #120 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:48 [UT+1] »Yes leigh i was just trying to make point about the language and associations and history and culture andpolitics, because none of this, not even astrology, exists in a vacuum all by itself.
Obviously the way i speak/write has the ability to inflame some and not others, just by my choice ofwords/language and the associated inferences that that entails
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Just_meEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #121 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 29.06.2009 at 23:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Just_me on 29.06.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:

An aside: Power? Pluto is not a planet anymore. It is not precisely round. Power to apply knowledge that is vague andnew. May be correct or not. Hmmmm.

Wait...we're deciding that Pluto can't signify anything because the IAU calls it a dwarf planet?
Am I misreading this sentence or what?

Exactly. I get obtuse, sorry.
Edited to be a bit clear:
They decided to demote Pluto. Rather arbitrarily. They exerted power. Now, we must measure planets anddecide if they are round or have enough gravitational pull to do...blah,blah. Ergo, We might as well go back toonly the Sun/Moon. We, not the royal we, all have witnessed/felt those pulls. the IAU...hmmmm.... Kind of like
"Flatland" (book).
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ShokkMember

Re: Power« Reply #122 - on: 29.06.2009 at 23:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Lisalu on 29.06.2009 at 23:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 23:05 [UT+1]:
Clearly you are resentful that I point out that artistic power is talent. You are deeply resentful that I said men are not toblame if you are not talented.

Posts: 226
I am not resentful, just a little annoyed that you seem to misunderstand me.
i would agree that artistic power is talent, but i would disagree that artistic talent always equates to power.

I'd say it's power in one of it's most basic forms.
Not necessarily "talent" but moreso the urge to create, which is, I think, one big reason why humanity stands
atop the rest of this planet's creatures.
It's not power in the traditional sense, but creative power is , to me, one of humanity's largest and mostessential strengths.
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LisaluEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #123 - on: 30.06.2009 at 00:12 [UT+1] »Shokk that is a very interesting point about creativity, raw power, strength
Power seems equally to be able to seduce and repel
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judyanne
Member

Re: Power« Reply #124 - on: 30.06.2009 at 00:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 29.06.2009 at 23:59 [UT+1]:
It's not power in the traditional sense, but creative power is , to me, one of humanity's largest and most essential strengths.

Absolutely.
I'm not quite following all the arguments here, but I do believe that the ability to create, to move people
emotionally and to change the world with one's artistic vision, is most definitely a powerful thing.
Posts: 2012
Gender:As I've said before, I am not all that tied to the concept of power as strictly being masculine in nature. It's not
all about brute force. There are many subtle forms of power, many dimensions, not all of them apparent.
I keep thinking of Steve3's wife getting Steve3 to mow the lawn when he would rather be relaxing. She must
be very powerful.

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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #125 - on: 30.06.2009 at 00:25 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 30.06.2009 at 00:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Shokk on 29.06.2009 at 23:59 [UT+1]:
It's not power in the traditional sense, but creative power is , to me, one of humanity's largest and most essential
strengths.

Absolutely.
I'm not quite following all the arguments here, but I do believe that the ability to create, to move people emotionally and to change theworld with one's artistic vision, is most definitely a powerful thing.
As I've said before, I am not all that tied to the concept of power as strictly being masculine in nature. It's not all about brute force. There
are many subtle forms of power, many dimensions, not all of them apparent.
I keep thinking of Steve3's wife getting Steve3 to mow the lawn when he would rather be relaxing. She must be very powerful.

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Just_meEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #126 - on: 30.06.2009 at 00:37 [UT+1] »It is impossible to ignore Steve3's lawn. I give up.
How large is that lawn?
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Krista ShippMember

Re: Power« Reply #127 - on: 30.06.2009 at 00:39 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 30.06.2009 at 00:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Shokk on 29.06.2009 at 23:59 [UT+1]:
It's not power in the traditional sense, but creative power is , to me, one of humanity's largest and most essential
strengths.

Absolutely.

Posts: 15841
Gender:I'm not quite following all the arguments here, but I do believe that the ability to create, to move people emotionally and to change theworld with one's artistic vision, is most definitely a powerful thing.
As I've said before, I am not all that tied to the concept of power as strictly being masculine in nature. It's not all about brute force. There
are many subtle forms of power, many dimensions, not all of them apparent.
I keep thinking of Steve3's wife getting Steve3 to mow the lawn when he would rather be relaxing. She must be very powerful.

Or she signs the checks.....
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #128 - on: 30.06.2009 at 00:44 [UT+1] »I see a persistent interpretation of power as having someone under your thumb, such as Steve's wife with
Steve under her thumb or around her finger is power.
Get going. Do it. Make it happen. That is powerful. Needing to get others under your thumb is powerless andparasitical. It is detestable.
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Shokk

Member

Re: Power« Reply #129 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 30.06.2009 at 00:44 [UT+1]:
I see a persistent interpretation of power as having someone under your thumb, such as Steve's wife with Steve under her thumb oraround her finger is power.
Get going. Do it. Make it happen. That is powerful. Needing to get others under your thumb is powerless and parasitical. It is detestable.

Posts: 226

Exactly, that's what I was on about earlier with true power being a flame and false power being a mirror.
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Member

Re: Power« Reply #130 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 30.06.2009 at 01:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 30.06.2009 at 00:44 [UT+1]:
I see a persistent interpretation of power as having someone under your thumb, such as Steve's wife with Steve under her
thumb or around her finger is power.
Get going. Do it. Make it happen. That is powerful. Needing to get others under your thumb is powerless and parasitical. It
is detestable.

Posts: 1859

Exactly, that's what I was on about earlier with true power being a flame and false power being a mirror.

Yes, but a powerful person may have people who are willing to do things, out of respect and awe, or just want
to be helpful, as long as the powerful person isnt abusing the power to get such things, or expect them... But
no having someone under your thumb is in itself not so much a power, well i suppose it is, but not the bestform of power.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #131 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 29.06.2009 at 22:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at 11:47 [UT+1]:
OED:
power
• noun1 the ability to do something or act in a particular way.
2 the capacity to influence other people or the course of events.
3 a right or authority given or delegated to a person or body.
4 political authority or control.
5 physical strength or force.

Posts: 3675

6 a country viewed in terms of its international influence and military strength: a world power.
7 capacity or performance of an engine or other device.
8 energy that is produced by mechanical, electrical, or other means.
9 Physics the rate of doing work, measured in watts or horse power. Mathematics the product obtained when a number ismultiplied by itself a certain number of times.
These are all masculine attributes aren't they? Energy, strength, authority, control.
Mars, Saturn, Pluto.

This is quite different from a Politcal website or an Anti-male website, even though many participants are political and many participants
are anit-male.
The difference is astrology speciafically and metaphysics generally.
Now, to be involved in astrology and metaphysics and virulently anti-male is the height disengeniousness. Every chart whether male orfemale has Mars, Saturn, and Pluto. Every chart whether male or female has Moon, Venus, and Neptune. Everyone has everything. If yourMars, Saturn, and Pluto are debilitated, don't blame the male population. They did not create your birthchart -- you did.
Most schools of metaphysics suggest that if you are a woman in this life who is badly handled by men, who is unfairly treated by man,
there is a good possibility that you were an abusive male in a past life. Men alive today who are mean to women will probably reincarnate
as a victim of such behavior.

Grow up. Be honest. Get smart.

I have already commented on other posts that we all have AEGJ in our charts so we're in agreement there
at least.
Steve, why do you do this? Take a topic; jump around replying to posts; sometimes responding more thanonce to the same one that inflames you; claim we've said something we haven't; and then start insulting
people by saying things like 'Grow up. Be honest. Get smart.' as though you know better and they are stupid?
Those comments tend to inflame which is not in the ethos of the forum. You know nothing about me, I
haven't had problems with men being abusive so your projections and assumptions aren't useful in this
discussion or in your attributions of my reasoning.
To clarify, yet again, my point was that if we look at language, at how a word is formally defined then weshould be able to equate key words with specific astrological ideas. In this case power, key words: energy,
control, authority - associated with planets EGJ which are masculine energies. If the key words we have todescribe power are drawn from a vocabulary drawing on traits associated with alpha masculinity owing totraditions that shape our culture, we are lacking an understanding of the other half - the yin yangcomplementarity. So what are the words and attributes to the complementary feminine associated powers thatare not described in the formal definition of power, and what astrological energies/traits/aspects relate to thatpower?
Astrology is not independent of all else; sure it has its own symbology and a comprehensive meaning-making
structure, but it does not exist in a vacuum, it must use language and symbols that communicate outside itself
and these are interconnected with the history and traditions of the cultures within which it is enmeshed. We
cannot ignore those roots and dynamics because it appears to delve into a man vs. woman debate upsettingsome peoples sensibilities, especially when you are getting the wrong end of the stick and misreading theintentions behind the comments. That is censorship of ideas. Astrology uses masculine/feminine conceptually,so we should be able to discuss this, surely, without it turning into the battle of the sexes?
Now, I repeat, to make it crystal clear, this is not a war on men; this is not anti-male or misandric. It is acomment aimed at drawing a fuller understanding of the concept we are discussing. If we cannot inspect aconcept, pull it apart, define it, understand what it includes and excludes, we don't have a hope of being able tohave meaningful astrological discussion about it.
All the while you seek to stop people airing views and ideas by accusing them of sexism you are [intentionallyor unintentionally] seeking to prevent freedom of speech and discussion of ideas. Your comments areinterpreted as though you take ideas here as personal and emotive - I'm sorry that they make you feel thatway, but any comments I made are not meant to be offensive - and I have tried a couple of times now to
distinguish exactly what I am trying to say. If you do not understand because I have expressed myself poorly,
that's fine, say so. There is absolutely no need to accuse people of sexism, without seeking to fully understandtheir ideas. I have tried to clarify my points for you.
There was absolutely no intention of man bashing. I'm much more interested in what you know astrologically.
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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #132 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1] »What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms too, weekly.
And I draw
her a hot bath and rub her feet when she has a tough day. She still works circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have one room of my own that's
junky.... dirty socks on the floor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you could be doing
something else?
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lioninrain

Member

Re: Power« Reply #133 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:48 [UT+1] »Steve3 Quote:
What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you could be doing something else?

Keep talking like that - foot rubs, baths, etc - and you'll find out - all the women will be chasing you down!
Haha, just teasing you.
Posts: 1554
Gender:That would be the "good" kind of power, indeed.

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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #134 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1]:
What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms too, weekly.

And I draw her a hot bath and rub herfeet when she has a tough day. She still works circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have one room of my own that's junky.... dirty socks on thefloor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you could be doing something else?

Posts: 3675

Love power?
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judyanne

Member

Re: Power« Reply #135 - on: 30.06.2009 at 01:59 [UT+1] »Yes, it's the Power of Love. A big hit for Huey Lewis and the News. And so true.
So there is Venusian power, to be sure. Venus signifies Love and Money. Two major human desires.
The more I think about it, the more I have come to realize that every planet has its own form of power.

Posts: 2012
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ShokkMember

Re: Power« Reply #136 - on: 30.06.2009 at 03:25 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 30.06.2009 at 01:59 [UT+1]:
Yes, it's the Power of Love. A big hit for Huey Lewis and the News. And so true.
So there is Venusian power, to be sure. Venus signifies Love and Money. Two major human desires.

Posts: 226

The more I think about it, the more I have come to realize that every planet has its own form of power.

I think it's really just the way we, humans, make use of the planets, they're all in us, some better placed thanothers, but it just takes the will to dig out these abilities and energies and then use them.
Quote from leigha9 on 30.06.2009 at 01:33 [UT+1]:
Quote from Shokk on 30.06.2009 at 01:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 30.06.2009 at 00:44 [UT+1]:
I see a persistent interpretation of power as having someone under your thumb, such as Steve's wife with
Steve under her thumb or around her finger is power.
Get going. Do it. Make it happen. That is powerful. Needing to get others under your thumb is powerless andparasitical. It is detestable.
Exactly, that's what I was on about earlier with true power being a flame and false power being a mirror.

Yes, but a powerful person may have people who are willing to do things, out of respect and awe, or just want to be helpful, as long as
the powerful person isnt abusing the power to get such things, or expect them... But no having someone under your thumb is in itself not
so much a power, well i suppose it is, but not the best form of power.

Well, the way I look at it, power really can't be derived from others, sure, an army lead by a brave general canbe powerful, but it's not the general that gives the army power, he just focuses it wherever he wants it to be,
it's power rests in each and every soldier under him. I guess my point here, really, is that not all power thatcomes from others is necessarily bad, but when one starts to become wholly dependent on others for power it
becomes a problem.
The way you describe it, leigha, is just fine to me, if said powerful person is also wise then they'll know not torely on these willing souls for power.
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Jeanette

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Re: Power« Reply #137 - on: 30.06.2009 at 03:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1]:
What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms too, weekly.

And I draw her a hot bath and rub herfeet when she has a tough day. She still works circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have one room of my own that's junky.... dirty socks on thefloor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you could be doing something else?

Gee I dunno - do have to rub her feet just to get a junk room of your own?
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lioninrain
Member

Re: Power« Reply #138 - on: 30.06.2009 at 04:35 [UT+1] »Shokk Quote:Well, the way I look at it, power really can't be derived from others, sure, an army lead by a brave general can be powerful, but it's not
the general that gives the army power, he just focuses it wherever he wants it to be, it's power rests in each and every soldier under him.
I guess my point here, really, is that not all power that comes from others is necessarily bad, but when one starts to become wholly
dependent on others for power it becomes a problem.
The way you describe it, leigha, is just fine to me, if said powerful person is also wise then they'll know not to rely on these willing soulsfor power.

Posts: 1554
Gender:I think so too - I don't really get why people think they need a "leader" why they have such a need to follow
anyone....
My own idea of an ideal world would be where no one is "in charge", yet we all are in charge. People who aregood at healing, doctors, etc. could be "in charge" of that, people who like food production, farming, cooking,etc. could be "in charge" of that, people who like to build stuff could be "in charge" of that, etc.

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Van Derek

Member

Re: Power« Reply #139 - on: 30.06.2009 at 04:46 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 11:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from DrKoo on 29.06.2009 at 05:47 [UT+1]:
as I said love [partnership] and respect, little to do with power.

Lol! Have you ever been in a long term marriage? If you have, and if you still believe that power is not involved, then I applaud youridealism.

Posts: 684
Gender:Judyanne... I've been married for thirty years... one partner three children... idealism or power has nothing
to do with our family dynamic ... love and respect dear ... we [you and I] are obviously not of the same ilk... I
sense a EnJ synastry in our charts...

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Van Derek
Member

Re: Power« Reply #140 - on: 30.06.2009 at 04:53 [UT+1] »Quote from lynnifer on 29.06.2009 at 11:24 [UT+1]:
Quote from judyanne on 29.06.2009 at 11:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from DrKoo on 29.06.2009 at 05:47 [UT+1]:
as I said love [partnership] and respect, little to do with power.

Lol! Have you ever been in a long term marriage? If you have, and if you still believe that power is not involved, then I
applaud your idealism.

Posts: 684
Gender:Yes! I saw that too.

Love, relationships have everything to do with power, in my experience at least.

Same for you girl... tell me why not take judyann's question... Have you ever been in a long term marriage?
and for how long?
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judyanne

Member

Re: Power« Reply #141 - on: 30.06.2009 at 05:08 [UT+1] »Quote from DrKoo on 30.06.2009 at 04:46 [UT+1]:
we [you and I] are obviously not of the same ilk... I sense a

EnJ synastry in our charts...

No worries, Koo. Certainly I respect you as a fellow astrologer; it's of no matter that our relationship profiles
are mismatched.

Posts: 2012
Gender:Back to top

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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #142 - on: 30.06.2009 at 11:08 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 30.06.2009 at 01:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1]:
What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms too, weekly.

And I draw her a hotbath and rub her feet when she has a tough day. She still works circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have one room of my own that's junky....
dirty socks on the floor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you could be doing something
else?

Love power?

of course we also have the power over each other to push the buttons that will make the other angry, happy,
sad, hopeful, .......

Jeanette,

No. My own room to keep my guitars and my computer and books and things and the freedom to keep it
however I want was a trade for me helping more around the house. And I will note that I have a goal to makeit inspirational and not junky. But I know couples where this sort of thing - one neat and one not - is a cause
for alot of power struggles.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #143 - on: 30.06.2009 at 11:23 [UT+1] »mmm. So we're moving from the overtly political and large scale and work oriented to something moreindividual, to a comprehension of power as the ability to assert oneself to make life more comfortable in the[allegedly] smaller aspects of life, that can be very problematic between individuals. Some people play doormat
and either cannot see their own potential power or use their apparent downtrodden-ness as a powerful weapon.
Presumably a cardinal or fixed dominant personality would find it easier to find power to assert their needs
than a mutable personality that will go with the flow? Negotiation as Steve3 describes is dependent on bothparties willing to enter negotiation looking for the best outcome for both (win:win) rather than one having
power to dominate the other. Can we describe that willingness to negotiate and reach a solution as a power
Posts: 3675

and where do we find that in the chart astrologically?

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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #144 - on: 30.06.2009 at 12:00 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 30.06.2009 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
mmm. So we're moving from the overtly political and large scale and work oriented to something more individual, to a comprehension of
power as the ability to assert oneself to make life more comfortable in the [allegedly] smaller aspects of life, that can be very
problematic between individuals. Some people play doormat and either cannot see their own potential power or use their apparent
downtrodden-ness as a powerful weapon. Presumably a cardinal or fixed dominant personality would find it easier to find power to assert
their needs than a mutable personality that will go with the flow? Negotiation as Steve3 describes is dependent on both parties willing toenter negotiation looking for the best outcome for both (win:win) rather than one having power to dominate the other. Can we

describe that willingness to negotiate and reach a solution as a power and where do we find thatin the chart astrologically?

is it specific to two particular parties? Maybe it's found in a synastry.
But to the extent it's in a single chart.... wouldn't it be 7H?
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Jeanette

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #145 - on: 30.06.2009 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 30.06.2009 at 01:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1]:
What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms too, weekly.

And I

draw her a hot bath and rub her feet when she has a tough day. She still works circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have one room of my own
that's junky.... dirty socks on the floor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you could bedoing something else?

Love power?

of course we also have the power over each other to push the buttons that will make the other angry, happy, sad, hopeful, .......

Jeanette,
No. My own room to keep my guitars and my computer and books and things and the freedom to keep it however I want was a trade forme helping more around the house. And I will note that I have a goal to make it inspirational and not junky. But I know couples where
this sort of thing - one neat and one not - is a cause for alot of power struggles.

Fair enough. My husband brings me coffee in bed every morning...he buys a lot of good will this way. He's got
it all figured out it seems what with Gg 3rd oOd at the Asc. He's adept at doing this dance between his
own personal freedom and relational obligations in his immediate environment. I have no one to blame but
myself...
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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #146 - on: 30.06.2009 at 23:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Jeanette on 30.06.2009 at 12:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 30.06.2009 at 01:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1]:
What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms too, weekly.
And I draw her a hot bath and rub her feet when she has a tough day. She still works
circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have one room of
my own that's junky.... dirty socks on the floor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone even though you
could be doing something else?

Love power?

of course we also have the power over each other to push the buttons that will make the other angry, happy, sad, hopeful,.......

Jeanette,
No. My own room to keep my guitars and my computer and books and things and the freedom to keep it however I want
was a trade for me helping more around the house. And I will note that I have a goal to make it inspirational and not
junky. But I know couples where this sort of thing - one neat and one not - is a cause for alot of power struggles.

Fair enough. My husband brings me coffee in bed every morning...he buys a lot of good will this way. He's got it all figured out it seems
what with

Gg 3rd oOd at the Asc. He's adept at doing this dance between his own personal freedom and relational obligations in his

immediate environment. I have no one to blame but myself...

d Rising and 1H O here.
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #147 - on: 02.07.2009 at 06:54 [UT+1] »Let's see; to address some of the more interesting thoughts... and some of the ramblings this thread hastaken...
so... who wears the pants in the family has become a sub-theme... interesting...or who doesn't struggle to wear
the pants in the family... also interesting.
Love + acceptance = lack of power struggle. Cool. Hey, whatevergets you through the night... is all right, is all right... The purity of real love erases most power struggles, I
have found so hey, maybe that equation really works. But enough of this jockeying for position here...
'mymarriage lasted longer than yours'... yeah, and some of us manage to live longer, too. Whoever needs to win
the 'I've been married longer than you have' competition, there's a special room for that psychosis. Go stand inthat line...
are good negotiators powerful people, and if you are a good negotiator, where would that be seen in the chart?
As it happens, my attorney is a contract negotiator by trade. He has a dominant 11th house, with planets in
the 11th in c; bA, d ASC. That sort of power might come down to being able to put yourself in the other's
shoes, but he'd tell me it's about brinksmanship and knowing when to give up, give in, or walk away. For mostpeople out there in the real world, power is being negotiated each and every minute of every day... my attorney
would present the deal and say 'take it or leave it.' Very d.
someone almost invariably has something you want; how are you going to get it from them? Or are you?
That's what negotiation is usually about, after all... getting something you want.
Power, desire, want... all fall in the same basket. The stew of complicated emotional needs up against
determinants that might not want you to have that thing you think you have to have. And what if someone has
the power to give it to you... or not?

G moment of something you want being denied to you? J moment of acceptance of another's stronger will?
Hmmmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
In my little world, persuasion is the key.
real power comes from not having to coerce people.
Next question: are leaders born, or are they made? Hmmmm. Another tricky one, I suspect.
to borrow rookish's can of worms for this one.

I might haveoh, by the way: the discussion on the power of the language and how it's used is deeply important, for reasons
many might not be aware of. But whoever talked about how important the language is, and how sociopoliticalpower is usually determined by people's ability with speech and writing: yes. That is absolutely correct. Lotsand lots written on that. Huge political subject. Thanks for bringing that up.

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MyriosEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #148 - on: 02.07.2009 at 22:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 02.07.2009 at 06:54 [UT+1]:
Let's see; to address some of the more interesting thoughts... and some of the ramblings this thread has taken...
so... who wears the pants in the family has become a sub-theme... interesting...or who doesn't struggle to wear the pants in the family...
also interesting.

Love + acceptance = lack of power struggle. Cool. Hey, whatever gets you through the night... is all right, is allright... The purity of real love erases most power struggles, I have found so hey, maybe that equation really works. But enough of thisjockeying for position here...

'my marriage lasted longer than yours'... yeah, and some of us manage to live longer, too. Whoeverneeds to win the 'I've been married longer than you have' competition, there's a special room for that psychosis. Go stand in that line...

are good negotiators powerful people, and if you are a good negotiator, where would that be seen in the chart? As it happens, my attorney
is a contract negotiator by trade. He has a dominant 11th house, with planets in the 11th inc; bA, d ASC. That sort of power mightcome down to being able to put yourself in the other's shoes, but he'd tell me it's about brinksmanship and knowing when to give up, givein, or walk away. For most people out there in the real world, power is being negotiated each and every minute of every day... myattorney would present the deal and say 'take it or leave it.' Veryd.

someone almost invariably has something you want; how are you going to get it from them? Or are you? That's what negotiation isusually about, after all... getting something you want.
Power, desire, want... all fall in the same basket. The stew of complicated emotional needs up against determinants that might not want
you to have that thing you think you have to have. And what if someone has the power to give it to you... or not?

G moment of something you want being denied to you? J moment of acceptance of another's stronger will? Hmmmmm. Curiouser andcuriouser.
In my little world, persuasion is the key.
real power comes from not having to coerce people.
Next question: are leaders born, or are they made? Hmmmm. Another tricky one, I suspect.

I might have to borrow rookish's can ofworms for this one.
oh, by the way: the discussion on the power of the language and how it's used is deeply important, for reasons many might not be awareof. But whoever talked about how important the language is, and how sociopolitical power is usually determined bypeople's ability with speech and writing: yes. That is absolutely correct. Lots and lots written on that. Huge politicalsubject. Thanks for bringing that up.

And it should also be noted that WRITING as the beginning of all "sociopolitical power" .... was once theexclusive tool of monks and clerics - therefore a masculine power after all - in the hands of the Church.
"For if it is written, what can I do?" the faithful Arab queried ...
"and the WORD was made God, and dwellt amonst them" ...
Anyone want to go THERE?
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Pisces63

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #149 - on: 02.07.2009 at 23:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 02.07.2009 at 06:54 [UT+1]:
In my little world, persuasion is the key.
real power comes from not having to coerce people.

If you're game Syzygy, I'd like more detail on this.

my thoughts are, I've given away power because of this...

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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #150 - on: 03.07.2009 at 01:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Pisces63 on 02.07.2009 at 23:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Syzygy on 02.07.2009 at 06:54 [UT+1]:
In my little world, persuasion is the key.
real power comes from not having to coerce people.
If you're game Syzygy, I'd like more detail on this.

my thoughts are, I've given away power because of this...

LanettePosts: 3675

So, lacking coercion, you are left with charisma to inspire (Pluto/Leo/Scorpio may be, definitely intensity, Asc orMC?); democracy for perceived justice/fairness (Libra/Saturn); legitimation ie the right to power (hmm,
Capricorn/10th perhaps), influence or persuasion (through communication? Mercury and ........)
and.............................celebrity/media (something on MC, Neptune - what is and what is illusion) ???
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Ceto*

Member

Re: Power« Reply #151 - on: 03.07.2009 at 16:22 [UT+1] »Attaining the power that you desire is hollow, which makes me wonder more about the motivation.
It's a hole that will never be filled.

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truegem620
Member

Re: Power« Reply #152 - on: 04.07.2009 at 06:12 [UT+1] »Quote:In physics, power (symbol: P) is the rate at which work is performed or energy is transmitted, or the amount of energy required or
expended for a given unit of time. As a rate of change of work done or the energy of a subsystem, power is:
P=W/t
where P is power, W is work and t is time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)
Posts: 4466
Gender:

Syzygy,Yes, I do believe by this definition you may just be 'guilty' of exerting some 'power' into this forum, by theefforts you put forth with work and time that contribute to making it a worthwhile place.
It's a forum, threads that generate attention in esscence generate a great deal of power in themselves. You
could say a person with the ability to generate such threads has created for themselves (and others) a safe
haven to share 'power' of thought generated by mental energy.
FYI: each planet has it's own form of power.

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truegem620

MemberPosts: 4466
Gender:

Re: Power« Reply #153 - on: 04.07.2009 at 06:32 [UT+1] »A the power to create
B the power to feel
C the power to think
D the power to seduce
E the power of will
F the power of joy
G the power of procedure
O the power of unity
I the power of empathy
J the power to regenerate
If you think the President is any more powerful then Mother Teresa because he has prestige- then you aresimply seduced away from the true power of power.
Furthermore- there is absolutely no such thing as 'true' and 'false' power- power is power is power.
(just having some fun with the thread)One person alone has no power. Power is derived through a collective effort. The distribution of power is anentirely different subject, but might be just as much fun to discuss--- though maybe more appropriate for themundane title.

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MaryB
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Re: Power« Reply #154 - on: 04.07.2009 at 07:03 [UT+1] »Quote from lioninrain on 28.06.2009 at 05:43 [UT+1]:
I think that it's entirely possible that people were more confident in their abilities back in George's time....Makes a big difference.
Power = someone feels superior + someone feels inferior
I think we suffer from a very large inferiority complex these days. In a lot of ways, it is merely a way to blame someone else when things
don't go well. Blame it on the guy "in charge". So we allow them their superiority to avoid blame, maybe.

superior and inferior, is not power
power is self mastery.
Intense love and hate are based on illusions of the personal I and is nothing but mere confusion.
Universal love and compassion are a pathway to the one ness with God in which we may clearly view others' as
there are and not what we desire them to be
Acceptance of faults and follies with one self and to honor of themgives others's self empowerment which becomes an light for your own being.
Pluto may be warped power, as well as Saturn, O and I
Power is not control of other's, it is only power of yourself.
Blame is only something to not look at yourself in the mirror.

Michael Jackson had self mastery to give people the magic moment to feel alive, to feel, to be with energy or
senergy.
He mastered music and gave it back ten fold
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MaryB

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Re: Power« Reply #155 - on: 04.07.2009 at 07:09 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 04.07.2009 at 06:32 [UT+1]:

A the power to create
B the power to feel
C the power to think
D the power to seduce
E the power of will
F the power of joy
G the power of procedure
O the power of unity
I the power of empathy
J the power to regenerate
If you think the President is any more powerful then Mother Teresa because he has prestige- then you are simply seduced away from thetrue power of power.
Furthermore- there is absolutely no such thing as 'true' and 'false' power- power is power is power.
(just having some fun with the thread)One person alone has no power. Power is derived through a collective effort. The distribution of power is an entirely different subject, but
might be just as much fun to discuss--- though maybe more appropriate for the mundane title.

collective effort

so true, but then got to get your ego straight

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Steve3
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #156 - on: 04.07.2009 at 12:37 [UT+1] »the mods have power.

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Penguin Trauma

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #157 - on: 04.07.2009 at 14:57 [UT+1] »Haven't read all the thread yet, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but....
How about 'Saturnian' power? Also with Uranus and Jupiter involved. In terms of the myth. As you all know, it
was told...
Saturn seizes power, castrating and overthrowing his father Uranus.
However, it was foretold that one day a mighty son of Saturn would in turn overthrow him, and Saturndevoured all of his children when they were born to prevent this.
Saturn's wife, Rhea, hid her sixth child, Jupiter, on the island of Crete, and offered Saturn a large stone
wrapped in swaddling clothes in his place. Saturn promptly devoured it.
Jupiter later overthrew Saturn and the other Titans, becoming the new supreme ruler of the cosmos.
Anyone witnessed any power plays of this kind? Metaphorically of course (not literally!)
It does seem to sum up why Saturn rules Aquarius though as well as Capricorn.
Saturn being the original 'rebel' (Aquarius) as it were, before overthrowing his father. But then once heassumes power, he sets his own rules that others have to strictly adhere too (Capricorn). And yet, is always
fearful that a new rebel will overthrow them in turn.
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Shokk
Member

Re: Power« Reply #158 - on: 04.07.2009 at 15:37 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 04.07.2009 at 06:32 [UT+1]:

Posts: 226

A the power to create
B the power to feel
C the power to think
D the power to seduce
E the power of will
F the power of joy
G the power of procedure
O the power of unity
I the power of empathy
J the power to regenerate
If you think the President is any more powerful then Mother Teresa because he has prestige- then you are simply seduced away from thetrue power of power.
Furthermore- there is absolutely no such thing as 'true' and 'false' power- power is power is power.
(just having some fun with the thread)One person alone has no power. Power is derived through a collective effort. The distribution of power is an entirely different
subject, but might be just as much fun to discuss--- though maybe more appropriate for the mundane title.

Well, what I was saying about true power and false power wasn't that either of them was more powerful thanthe other, as you said, power is power. But I was just pointing out that one can't count on others for power,
that's not power, that's parasitism. But it's still POWERful in the sense that it can cause change and such. It's
only false in the sense that it's not YOUR power that's being used. But Power is power is power.
And as for the highlighted text, I do believe you're grossly underestimating humanity. How do you get a realcollective without a large pool of individuals? To say that 0 times 1000 equals anything would be absurd. The
phrase "no power" -although probably just a hyperbole-is very much incorrect. We all posess some power
within ourselves, not enough to completely change the face of society, but power in that sense requires that it
involves others by it's very nature.
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Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #159 - on: 04.07.2009 at 16:15 [UT+1] »Quote from MaryB on 04.07.2009 at 07:03 [UT+1]:
Quote from lioninrain on 28.06.2009 at 05:43 [UT+1]:
I think that it's entirely possible that people were more confident in their abilities back in George's time....Makes a big
difference.
Power = someone feels superior + someone feels inferior
I think we suffer from a very large inferiority complex these days. In a lot of ways, it is merely a way to blame someone
else when things don't go well. Blame it on the guy "in charge". So we allow them their superiority to avoid blame,
maybe.

superior and inferior, is not power

power is self mastery.
Intense love and hate are based on illusions of the personal I and is nothing but mere confusion.
Universal love and compassion are a pathway to the one ness with God in which we may clearly view others' as there are and not what we
desire them to be
Acceptance of faults and follies with one self and to honor of themgives others's self empowerment which becomes an light for your own being.
Pluto may be warped power, as well as Saturn,O andIPower is not control of other's, it is only power of yourself.
Blame is only something to not look at yourself in the mirror.

Michael Jackson had self mastery to give people the magic moment to feel alive, to feel, to be with energy or senergy.
He mastered music and gave it back ten fold

The only true power, is the power you have over yourself. Power over others is transitional. Here one day, gone
the next. Since j and G sit at the apex of the natural chart, we can see that they have a lot to do with power.
Self mastery leading to the subtleties of transpersonal power exemplified by OIJ, or fear of losing temporal
power and eventual destruction by transpersonal and collective powers.
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #160 - on: 04.07.2009 at 16:52 [UT+1] »Lanette... what I am referring to is the power of persuasion, a fundamental tenet of the use of rhetoric. Now,
when you're busy persuading people with effective words, you are not: 1) arming for nuclear war 2) holding a
gun to their heads 3) crying, screaming or sulking, because instead of being emotionally inarticulate, you rely
on language to convey your feelings 4) holding their children hostage 5) manipulating their economy et al., adinfinitum. So the entire point of using persuasion to reason with someone (or a country) is to not have toresort to the above methods, which are, after all, highly coercive in very different ways. Except for the crying.
You don't generally see a lot of world leaders cry in front of one another at summits, etc.
Persuasion is a subtle art, and therefore is often thought of badly as being necessarily manipulative, but that
was another thread.
I also think xian's point is a very good one; what is 'true power', anyway? I'd like to think that it is all about
self-control and self-mastery, and for that ability, in my own chart, I'd look to my Gj/ASC pDJf/8th.
However, I do think that power is expressed outside of the self, and that because there are many people inpower who seem to have very little self-mastery, their power over me is disturbing, to say the least. So that
dealing with another's power becomes a game of self-protection and aversion, avoidance of difficulty and pain
inflicted by them upon me. My government has power over me that I'd really prefer they didn't have, but theydo. I do not like it. I have a few choices if I want to avoid having to deal with that power, like become a citizenof another country, but mostly the choices are not great.
My point really is that power, abuse of power, and ownership of one's own power, is a constant. These are forces
we live with each day. Power is energy, too, and how much of one's day is spent getting others to do what wewant them to do. For those people who have real power in the outside world, this is not a game; they must
make people do what they need for them to do. Employers, for example, must get their employees to do thework they've hired them to do. And so they have power over their employees. That's just as much real power
as any other, but it's still only one kind of power.
How you, as an employer, handle that power, is what separates you from those who would abuse it.
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Member

Re: Power« Reply #161 - on: 04.07.2009 at 17:17 [UT+1] »Good point true Gemini, Let's even look at Ghandi. I think we tend to confuse power with control. Power, tome, is having the influence to change someone without coecive or intimidating tactics (pluto/mars). Power firstcomes from our own inner transformation of the five senses (has anyone read the Bhagavad Gita!) Can you telltransiting pluto is about ready to conjunct my ascendant!
Posts: 462
Gender:Good point about mars, saturn,pluto. I couldn't agree more about how those planets influence our will. It's soeasy to be on a power trip with any harsh aspects involving those planets.
Judy, good to see you back.
I chuckled about mowing the grass!

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #162 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 04.07.2009 at 16:52 [UT+1]:.... So the entire point of using persuasion to reason with someone (or a country) is to not have to resort to the above methods, whichare, after all, highly coercive in very different ways. Except for the crying. You don't generally see a lot of world leaders cry in front of
one another at summits, etc.

...

I've certainly seen some women use crying as an effective means of coercion though.
- Ed
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solarwind

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #163 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:38 [UT+1] »[quote author=Syzygy linkJG=1246145650/0#0 date=1246145650]Power is expressed in many different

ways. In a natal chart, certain significators indicate characteristics that the native uses to affect and influenceothers toward a certain outcome that s/he wishes to create in another.
In what way(s) are you powerful? And where in the chart is power located? What do you look for to find it?
Conversely, do you ever feel powerless....? Have there been circumstances that made you feel helpless orincapable of acting?
Is there someone in particular you find powerful and compelling? Post their chart!
[/quote]i didnt read everything and someone may alrady mention it... how about the 5th harmonics chart JGEm.... inother words i understand quintile between these planets.... prominent J...JG probably gives your power
more ruthless connotation...

the sign of power is to let people be what they are and let them either progress or kill themselves with theirignorance and other mistakes....

it's energy efficient....
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #164 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:42 [UT+1] »Teddybull, I do think it's all in how one uses the EJ aspect... I myself have it in the 8th, in conjunction witha bunch of other planets, and taken just at face value, that alone "ought to" make me a miniature Hitler,
especially according to some astrologers I've been to.
But in fact, transcendence of the personal is key. Transcendence of base ego needs, etc., in order to be able toattain something remotely approximating wisdom... this is the goal.
I do think we spend a lot of time discussing the negatives, and I know there have to be more positive examples
of how this combination can be used.
Ed, discussing women crying is going to take us in a direction that I sure hope this thread doesn't devolve into.
Gender politics gets awfully sticky here on ye olden forum. And just to provide balance, I've seen men 'use'tears too, so... it can work both ways. Depends on if you're a crier or not. Some people (not just women) are.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #165 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:43 [UT+1] »But power with coercion is still power. We can't just be all purist about it and dismiss the 'dirty' aspects ofpower and its misuse can we?
What about the classical power and control experiments - Milgram, Zimbardo, Asche and extreme institutional
power from Bentham/Foucault on the panoptican demonstrating that self-constraint, self-surveillance as anextreme system of managing others' behaviours (Foucault is all about power); Goleman on dehumanisation in
the institution; and the observations of Baumann on apparent abnegation of power and responsibility of Nazi
officers in the efficient bureaucratic process that resulted in the Holocaust - there was power there, extreme
Posts: 3675

power resulting in millions of deaths. There is power there inherent in the institution; bureaucracy;
master/servant relationships; peer pressure; acceptance of authority etc. All are human social constructions
that hone and replicate power, and use power to control behaviour. We can't pretend that doesn't exist because
we want to look at 'good' power.
Perhaps then we should look at why many people are willing to let others have power over them/ lead (yes Syz- can of worms is opening), what power do leaders have? Sociologically, there are ideas that people needleaders, to give them structure and sense of security, save them from having to think. So what is the astrologyof willingness to give power to others, to let them lead you and tell you what to do (regardless of your inner
angst in the matter) - afflicted Sun/Mars? Loaded 6th or 12th perhaps? Neptune/Pisces suffering/martyrdom
having others tell them what to do? Mutable chart that goes with the flow?
« Last Edit: 05.07.2009 at 09:30 [UT+1] by rookish »Back to top

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solarwind
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #166 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:47 [UT+1] »EJm is just inidicative of your physical stamina... doesnt look like a power aspect... maybe physical power...areyou a marathon runner by chance
but not a power in a sense that you guys are talking about here.... why
not JGquintile? they indicate talent...AmJ people are also quite subtly powerful....
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #167 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:50 [UT+1] »My Mum had AEJ all conj in Cancer, taking a wide separating square to Saturn (AE) and an applying
square from G to J. Actually, she was always really concerned to be extremely fair and did not link into her
own power very well - her trined Pisces Moon was much more noticeable. But could you think that G would bethat strong?

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solarwind
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #168 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:51 [UT+1] »i have this feeling of relevance of the 6/12 axis to power as well.....i am not sure why though....yourfuture(6th)/ past(12th)

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Penguin Trauma

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #169 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:56 [UT+1] »I think a positive side of power using coercion is when you are talking someone out of doing something reallystupid, ie if they are about to harm/endanger themselves/someone else, something dangerous, etc.
Ie, a policeman using their powers, to persuade a suicidal person on a bridge, to not jump off and end it.
But even then, who has the most power out of the two? (I reckon actually the latter, oddly)This may sound very brief and rushed, it is, as I'm off now! Will elaborate later, if need be.
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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #170 - on: 04.07.2009 at 18:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 04.07.2009 at 18:42 [UT+1]:...
Ed, discussing women crying is going to take us in a direction that I sure hope this thread doesn't devolve into. Gender politics getsawfully sticky here on ye olden forum. And just to provide balance, I've seen men 'use' tears too, so... it can work both ways. Depends on
if you're a crier or not. Some people (not just women) are.

Just speaking from my personal experience. But yes, let's not go there.
- Ed

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solarwind

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #171 - on: 04.07.2009 at 19:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Penguin Trauma on 04.07.2009 at 18:56 [UT+1]:
I think a positive side of power using coercion is when you are talking someone out of doing something really stupid, ie if they are about
to harm/endanger themselves/someone else, something dangerous, etc.
Ie, a policeman using their powers, to persuade a suicidal person on a bridge, to not jump off and end it.
But even then, who has the most power out of the two? (I reckon actually the latter, oddly)This may sound very brief and rushed, it is, as I'm off now! Will elaborate later, if need be.

oh that doesnt really work... i worked with these people... first of all most of them have either terminal illness
which alters their mental state in most of the cases and i wouldnt blame anyone to feel bad about or mentally
ill... you cant reason with them.... yeah you may trick them but it's not usually worth it... in case if they
endanger anyone else they are usually get shotand people who do that part of the job have active
E(violence)... the negotiation is a bit differnt set of skills where i again think JGA quintile help... anothertrick in negotiations is that you cant appear that you press people into anything it's the best way to get the
opposite result...depending on the situation it's better to leave them alone

your real power will be when they will come back and beg for help....

happens all the time

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truegem620
Member

Re: Power« Reply #172 - on: 05.07.2009 at 00:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 04.07.2009 at 15:37 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 04.07.2009 at 06:32 [UT+1]:

Posts: 4466
Gender:A the power to create
B the power to feel
C the power to think
D the power to seduce
E the power of will
F the power of joy
G the power of procedure
O the power of unity
I the power of empathy
J the power to regenerate
If you think the President is any more powerful then Mother Teresa because he has prestige- then you are simply seduced
away from the true power of power.
Furthermore- there is absolutely no such thing as 'true' and 'false' power- power is power is power.
(just having some fun with the thread)One person alone has no power. Power is derived through a collective effort. The distribution of power is anentirely different subject, but might be just as much fun to discuss--- though maybe more appropriate for the mundane
title.
Well, what I was saying about true power and false power wasn't that either of them was more powerful than the other, as you said,
power is power. But I was just pointing out that one can't count on others for power, that's not power, that's parasitism. But it's still
POWERful in the sense that it can cause change and such. It's only false in the sense that it's not YOUR power that's being used. But
Power is power is power.
And as for the highlighted text, I do believe you're grossly underestimating humanity. How do you get a real collective without a largepool of individuals? To say that 0 times 1000 equals anything would be absurd. The phrase "no power" -although probably just a hyperboleis very much incorrect. We all posess some power within ourselves, not enough to completely change the face of society, but power in thatsense requires that it involves others by it's very nature.

First of all i didn't have anyone in mind that I was directing my reply to.
I'm saying the 'power' is in humanity- made up of individuals that rely on social interaction for development.
What good would it do to take 0 individuals and multiply it by a thousand? And if you take 1 individual andmultiply it by 0 you have nothing(which may be something, but not in the humanistic terms we are discussing)but you take that same individual and multiply it by a thousand and you are standing a thousand strong;though the 'individual' seems to have this natural fear of losing themself within that equation.
The power is in humanity- it's the distribution of that power that is intrinsically misaligned.
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truegem620

Member

Re: Power« Reply #173 - on: 05.07.2009 at 00:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Teddybull on 04.07.2009 at 17:17 [UT+1]:
Good point true Gemini, Let's even look at Ghandi. I think we tend to confuse power with control. Power, to me, is having the influence tochange someone without coecive or intimidating tactics (pluto/mars). Power first comes from our own inner transformation of the fivesenses (has anyone read the Bhagavad Gita!) Can you tell transiting pluto is about ready to conjunct my ascendant!

Good post. I fully agree.
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truegem620
Member

Re: Power« Reply #174 - on: 05.07.2009 at 00:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 04.07.2009 at 18:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from Syzygy on 04.07.2009 at 18:42 [UT+1]:...
Ed, discussing women crying is going to take us in a direction that I sure hope this thread doesn't devolve into. Gender
politics gets awfully sticky here on ye olden forum. And just to provide balance, I've seen men 'use' tears too, so... it canwork both ways. Depends on if you're a crier or not. Some people (not just women) are.

Just speaking from my personal experience. But yes, let's not go there.

Posts: 4466
Gender:- Ed

And men use their powers of silence.

But yeah, we won't go there.

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Aquariusly

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #175 - on: 05.07.2009 at 01:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 30.06.2009 at 00:44 [UT+1]:
I see a persistent interpretation of power as having someone under your thumb, such as Steve's wife with Steve under her thumb oraround her finger is power.
Get going. Do it. Make it happen. That is powerful. Needing to get others under your thumb is powerless and parasitical. It is detestable.

That is your interpretation, resulting from your powerlessness. Don't project onto everyone else, please.
In most cultures, male does = power. They usually run things. The expression, "it's a man's world" is true inmost cases. Big deal. To associate male planets with power is logical, not sexist.
Are we supposed to use I, which is a neutral planet so as not to offend either sex? Political correctness is soannoying.
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Jeanette
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #176 - on: 05.07.2009 at 02:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 23:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jeanette on 30.06.2009 at 12:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 30.06.2009 at 01:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from Steve3 on 30.06.2009 at 01:45 [UT+1]:
What are you people gonna say when I tell you that I clean one of the bathrooms
too, weekly.

And I draw her a hot bath and rub her feet when she has a toughday. She still works circles around me at home.
Yes, she has power. But there's no one under anyone's thumb. I even get to have
one room of my own that's junky.... dirty socks on the floor an all.

What kind of power is that when you are happy to do something for someone eventhough you could be doing something else?

Love power?

of course we also have the power over each other to push the buttons that will make the other angry,
happy, sad, hopeful, .......

Jeanette,
No. My own room to keep my guitars and my computer and books and things and the freedom to keep it
however I want was a trade for me helping more around the house. And I will note that I have a goal to
make it inspirational and not junky. But I know couples where this sort of thing - one neat and one not - is a
cause for alot of power struggles.

Fair enough. My husband brings me coffee in bed every morning...he buys a lot of good will this way. He's got it all
figured out it seems what with

Gg 3rd oOd at the Asc. He's adept at doing this dance between his own personal

freedom and relational obligations in his immediate environment. I have no one to blame but myself...

d Rising and 1H O here.

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ShokkMember

Re: Power« Reply #177 - on: 05.07.2009 at 02:15 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 00:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from Shokk on 04.07.2009 at 15:37 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 04.07.2009 at 06:32 [UT+1]:

Posts: 226

A the power to create
B the power to feel
C the power to think
D the power to seduce
E the power of will
F the power of joy
G the power of procedure
O the power of unity
I the power of empathy
J the power to regenerate
If you think the President is any more powerful then Mother Teresa because he has prestige- then you aresimply seduced away from the true power of power.
Furthermore- there is absolutely no such thing as 'true' and 'false' power- power is power is power.
(just having some fun with the thread)One person alone has no power. Power is derived through a collective effort. The distribution of
power is an entirely different subject, but might be just as much fun to discuss--- though maybe more
appropriate for the mundane title.
Well, what I was saying about true power and false power wasn't that either of them was more powerful than the other, as
you said, power is power. But I was just pointing out that one can't count on others for power, that's not power, that's
parasitism. But it's still POWERful in the sense that it can cause change and such. It's only false in the sense that it's not
YOUR power that's being used. But Power is power is power.
And as for the highlighted text, I do believe you're grossly underestimating humanity. How do you get a real collective
without a large pool of individuals? To say that 0 times 1000 equals anything would be absurd. The phrase "no power" although probably just a hyperbole-is very much incorrect. We all posess some power within ourselves, not enough tocompletely change the face of society, but power in that sense requires that it involves others by it's very nature.
First of all i didn't have anyone in mind that I was directing my reply to.
I'm saying the 'power' is in humanity- made up of individuals that rely on social interaction for development. What good would it do totake 0 individuals and multiply it by a thousand? And if you take 1 individual and multiply it by 0 you have nothing(which may besomething, but not in the humanistic terms we are discussing) but you take that same individual and multiply it by a thousand and you
are standing a thousand strong; though the 'individual' seems to have this natural fear of losing themself within that equation.
The power is in humanity- it's the distribution of that power that is intrinsically misaligned.

Well, I was talking a bit about the whole "true/false" thing in a few of my posts, so I assumed it was partiallydirected at me.
The mathematical quip I was making was that you basically said "1 person alone=1=0 Power" So if a single
person can have no power on his or her own, then what power can a thousand people have? You can't makeany non-zero number my multiplying zeroes. You can't take an individual with no power, put him in a pool witha bunch of other individuals with no power, and expect them to have power, it just doesn't happen. I realizethat when you said "no power" you obivously meant "very little" but we can't make the fatal mistake ofrounding 0.000000001 down to 0.
The point I'm making here is that each of us have SOME power, and we cannot overlook or deny that. On
another note, I think collective efforts can, at times, be derived from the power of an individual. But then it's
just a matter of perspective, the individual set it off, but the collective is doing the work. In any case, theindividual shouldn't be discouraged by the idea that he/she lacks power, because we all have it, heaps of it,
inside of us. But I guess that's just me being too idealistic.
And about using I as a neutral planet: I could've sworn I was considered feminine? I know for sure that C isgenerally considered a planet with no gender.
Bah, as far as political correctness and politeness, masculine/feminine is just a distinction, it's not like any of us
are trying to say that men have access to "better" forms of power, masculine and feminine, Yin and Yang,they're just polarities, some men do feminine things and use feminine power, some women make use ofmasculine power, not to say that this is "unnatural" in any way, it might not be the way things work out the
majority of them time, but it's not like there's anything wrong with it. If you're getting offended by people
classing a certain type of power is "masculine" then don't feel as if it's only for the "masculine" masculine power
is...masculine power, it doesn't mean females don't have access to it or that they're not supposed to have it,it's just that men generally tend toward a certain type of power, for whatever reason.
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Aquariusly
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #178 - on: 05.07.2009 at 07:00 [UT+1] »I'm not offended by using masculine planets for power. Others are. I was saying we should use masculine =power. If we are talking about traditional "power" it is, imo, either EJG or F. All the planets have their own
kind of power, but when the average Joe thinks of "power," they think of a male type of power.
If we want to further define and classify power, then we may use an alternative planet, like the B or D, whichhave their own types of power. The power of love, for instance, or the power of instinct, are two examples.
These are two very powerful types of power, just like "male" power, but they are not what most think of when
they hear the word, "power."
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Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #179 - on: 05.07.2009 at 11:23 [UT+1] »Quote from Aquariusly on 05.07.2009 at 07:00 [UT+1]:
If we want to further define and classify power, then we may use an alternative planet, like the

B or D, which have their own types ofpower. The power of love, for instance, or the power of instinct, are two examples. These are two very powerful types of power, just like"male" power, but they are not what most think of when they hear the word, "power."

Power of instinct is on of my top 5 list. Instinct is very strong with me. hB I didn't follow that intuitively, mygosh, I am reflecting strongly even now, after a couple years.
Kick'n myself...

say with me: lesson

LanetteBack to top

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Aquariusly
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #180 - on: 05.07.2009 at 20:29 [UT+1] »I agree about the power of instinct. It is very helpful in the world and can create power.

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truegem620

Member

Re: Power« Reply #181 - on: 05.07.2009 at 22:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 05.07.2009 at 02:15 [UT+1]:
Well, I was talking a bit about the whole "true/false" thing in a few of my posts, so I assumed it was partially directed at me.

I think if you read through you will see it wasn't only you.
Quote:The mathematical quip I was making was that you basically said "1 person alone=1=0 Power" So if a single person can have no power on
his or her own, then what power can a thousand people have? You can't make any non-zero number my multiplying zeroes. You can't takePosts: 4466
Gender:an individual with no power, put him in a pool with a bunch of other individuals with no power, and expect them to have power, it justdoesn't happen. I realize that when you said "no power" you obivously meant "very little" but we can't make the fatal mistake of rounding
0.000000001 down to 0.

If I had meant 'very little power' I would have stated 'very little power'. What I meant is that 1 person bythemselves wouldn't even have it in their power to survive(evolutionarily speaking); one man amongst manyhas power. Therefore no man that stands alone has power until he exerts that in a matter that is consistent
with the evolution of himself as a people. (*note- when I say 'evolution' I do not mean to apply to any kind ofadvancement hierarchy.)
Every individual has power- but that power generated is the result of collective unity.
I'm saying people cannot generate power without other ‘bodies’ to reciprocate.
I stand by my previous statements- one man that stands alone has no power. If power cannot be exerted,
regenerated, recycled, exchanged...it dissipates as quickly as it was produced.
This is not to say one person cannot generate power into the pool- but if there are no other bodies toreciprocate, it would just as quickly dissipate. There would be no ‘return’ necessary to generation(andregeneration) power.
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ShokkMember

Re: Power« Reply #182 - on: 05.07.2009 at 22:53 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 22:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Shokk on 05.07.2009 at 02:15 [UT+1]:
Well, I was talking a bit about the whole "true/false" thing in a few of my posts, so I assumed it was partially directed atme.

Posts: 226
I think if you read through you will see it wasn't only you.
Quote:The mathematical quip I was making was that you basically said "1 person alone=1=0 Power" So if a single person canhave no power on his or her own, then what power can a thousand people have? You can't make any non-zero number mymultiplying zeroes. You can't take an individual with no power, put him in a pool with a bunch of other individuals with nopower, and expect them to have power, it just doesn't happen. I realize that when you said "no power" you obivously
meant "very little" but we can't make the fatal mistake of rounding 0.000000001 down to 0.

If I had meant 'very little power' I would have stated 'very little power'. What I meant is that 1 person by themselves wouldn't even haveit in their power to survive(evolutionarily speaking); one man amongst many has power. Therefore no man that stands alone has power
until he exerts that in a matter that is consistent with the evolution of himself as a people . (*notewhen I say 'evolution' I do not mean to apply to any kind of advancement hierarchy.)
Every individual has power- but that power generated is the result of collective unity.
I'm saying people cannot generate power without other ‘bodies’ to reciprocate.
I stand by my previous statements- one man that stands alone has no power. If power cannot be exerted, regenerated, recycled,
exchanged...it dissipates as quickly as it was produced.
This is not to say one person cannot generate power into the pool- but if there are no other bodies to reciprocate, it would just as quickly
dissipate. There would be no ‘return’ necessary to generation(and regeneration) power.

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying, but I need some more clarification on the highlighted text, specificallywhat it is that you do mean when you say evolution.
And, just for kicks, here's some Aristotle regarding "1 person by themselves wouldn't even have it in theirpower to survive", just some words to reflect upon:"Man is by nature a social animal; and an unsocial person who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either
unsatisfactory or superhuman...Society is a natural phenomenon and is prior to the individual...And any one
who is unable to live a common life or who is self-sufficient that he has no need to do so is no member ofSociety, which means that he is either a beast or a god."
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #183 - on: 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1] »All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.
Not one respected book of astrology says so.

J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime-- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
Who do you respect? What do they have? How did they get it?
You want power without respect? Oh, you can Enforce respect once you have power.
Ability -- ok, sure
Tycoonery -- ok, sure
Draft board -- ok, sure
Atomic bomb -- ok, sure
Mastery -- ok, sure
Understanding the true nature of reality -- ok, sure
Brutal truth -- ok, sure
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truegem620
Member

Re: Power« Reply #184 - on: 05.07.2009 at 23:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 05.07.2009 at 22:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 22:22 [UT+1]:

If I had meant 'very little power' I would have stated 'very little power'. What I meant is that 1 person by themselves
wouldn't even have it in their power to survive(evolutionarily speaking); one man amongst many has power. Therefore no
man that stands alone has power until he exerts that in a matter that is consistent with theevolution of himself as a people. (*note- when I say 'evolution' I do not mean to apply to any kind ofadvancement hierarchy.)

Posts: 4466
Gender:Hmm, I think I get what you're saying, but I need some more clarification on the highlighted text, specifically what it is that you do mean
when you say evolution.

Quote:
Origin:1615–25; < L ēvolūtiōn- (s. of ēvolūtiō) an unrolling, opening, equiv. to ēvolūt(us) (see evolute ) + -iōn- -ion
Related forms:ev⋅o⋅lu⋅tion⋅al, adjective
ev⋅o⋅lu⋅tion⋅al⋅ly, adverb

Synonyms:
1. unfolding, change, progression, metamorphosis.

Antonyms:
1. stasis, inactivity, changelessness.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolution
I'm pretty sure I get/ got what you are saying too- I'm just being difficult.
One person can absolutely have great power (influence change, generate movement and activity) but change isonly possible if there are other people around to it 'act' it out. I suppose I think of it much as cause and effectacting upon one another to generate power. Yin works off of yang- yang works off of yin. Without this inward
outward movement things would simply remain static. No power therefore could be generated.
I am also a die-hard idealistic that believes one person can be a very powerful force...

Quote:
And, just for kicks, here's some Aristotle regarding "1 person by themselves wouldn't even have it in their power to survive", just somewords to reflect upon:"Man is by nature a social animal; and an unsocial person who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either unsatisfactory or
superhuman...Society is a natural phenomenon and is prior to the individual...And any one who is unable to live a common life or who isself-sufficient that he has no need to do so is no member of Society, which means that he is either a beast or a god."

Powerful words which would have no effect if not perceived and pursued by others.
man is both a beast and a God.
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truegem620

Member

Re: Power« Reply #185 - on: 05.07.2009 at 23:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?

No, power is not a keyword for all planets. Power is something generated from the 'movement' of all bodies as
one complete and functional entity.(eg. power does not come from one's pluto alone- but is generated
throughout an entire (functioning/ developing/ integrating) natal chart.

Posts: 4466
Gender:Quote:
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.

A blatant assumption based on premature evacuation of present knowledge.
Quote:
Not one respected book of astrology says so.

You must be tired from having read so much.
Quote:J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.

Evolution has already been touched upon here for being the generator that enforces power.
Quote:
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto

You have an awfully negative regard to power. I might warn you against falling into that trap of one
dimensional thought.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #186 - on: 06.07.2009 at 00:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Shokk on 05.07.2009 at 22:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 22:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Shokk on 05.07.2009 at 02:15 [UT+1]:
Well, I was talking a bit about the whole "true/false" thing in a few of my posts, so I assumed it waspartially directed at me.
I think if you read through you will see it wasn't only you.
Quote:

Posts: 3675

The mathematical quip I was making was that you basically said "1 person alone=1=0 Power" So if a single
person can have no power on his or her own, then what power can a thousand people have? You can't makeany non-zero number my multiplying zeroes. You can't take an individual with no power, put him in a poolwith a bunch of other individuals with no power, and expect them to have power, it just doesn't happen. I
realize that when you said "no power" you obivously meant "very little" but we can't make the fatal mistakeof rounding 0.000000001 down to 0.

If I had meant 'very little power' I would have stated 'very little power'. What I meant is that 1 person by themselves
wouldn't even have it in their power to survive(evolutionarily speaking); one man amongst many has power. Therefore no
man that stands alone has power until he exerts that in a matter that is consistent with theevolution of himself as a people. (*note- when I say 'evolution' I do not mean to apply to any kind ofadvancement hierarchy.)
Every individual has power- but that power generated is the result of collective unity.
I'm saying people cannot generate power without other ‘bodies’ to reciprocate.
I stand by my previous statements- one man that stands alone has no power. If power cannot be exerted, regenerated,recycled, exchanged...it dissipates as quickly as it was produced.
This is not to say one person cannot generate power into the pool- but if there are no other bodies to reciprocate, it would
just as quickly dissipate. There would be no ‘return’ necessary to generation(and regeneration) power.

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying, but I need some more clarification on the highlighted text, specifically what it is that you do mean
when you say evolution.
And, just for kicks, here's some Aristotle regarding "1 person by themselves wouldn't even have it in their power to survive", just somewords to reflect upon:"Man is by nature a social animal; and an unsocial person who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either unsatisfactory or
superhuman...Society is a natural phenomenon and is prior to the individual...And any one who is unable to live a common life or who isself-sufficient that he has no need to do so is no member of Society, which means that he is either a beast or a god."

TG - I'm not really getting where you're coming from here. I think you are saying that individuals have power,

but that power means nothing if there are no other members of society to bounce off/use that power on? But
that is assuming that power relates solely to human interaction with other humans. What about humaninteraction with environment or other living species? Assuredly one person has power to affect thoseregardless if someone else is there to see it, or even knows about it.
Additionally, one man alone assuredly could have the power to survive (energy/knowledge/willpower) and could
possibly even replicate himself in the not so distant future (science - power of knowledge) which assuredly may
have evolutionary implications and if a women, well, with a frozen sperm bank, she could pretty much copealone and reproduce effectively (within certain parameters). However, one person's survival generally does notaffect the evolution of a species in evolutionary terms - if he is the last, he is an evolutionary dead end ie thatspecies has reached a point where it is so specialised that it cannot adapt and does not ensure the survival of
the fittest that can reproduce in the environment in which it lives and hence is a dead branch on theevolutionary tree and evolution is still seen to be working. If he is one person alone on a desert island and therest of humanity is going about its business, then evolution of a species continues with the DNA potentiality
available. The problem with humans is that we really cannot imagine a world without us in it! We seem to see
ourselves as a pinnacle of evolution not just as any other evolutionary path.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #187 - on: 06.07.2009 at 01:28 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 23:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?
No, power is not a keyword for all planets. Power is something generated from the 'movement' of all bodies as one complete andfunctional entity.(eg. power does not come from one's pluto alone- but is generated throughout an entire (functioning/ developing/
integrating) natal chart.

Quote:
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.
A blatant assumption based on premature evacuation of present knowledge.
Quote:
Not one respected book of astrology says so.
You must be tired from having read so much.
Quote:J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.
Evolution has already been touched upon here for being the generator that enforces power.
Quote:
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
You have an awfully negative regard to power. I might warn you against falling into that trap of one dimensional thought.

An attitude is not an argument. Its an astrology site, not Jen's Corner. The gang thinks I should ask
permission to have opinions, and now to read books on astrology, too. You really think it is my attitude that is
obnixious, but that's just misandry talking.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #188 - on: 06.07.2009 at 01:41 [UT+1] »Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime-- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
You called them negative, not me. I described them by name. Names you will find in the dictionary, which will
not call them negative either.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #189 - on: 06.07.2009 at 01:52 [UT+1] »Jen, I miss the older avatar with your picture on it. You've got that Barbara Hershey, Debra Winger, andWhats-her-name thing going -- beautiful.

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Aquariusly
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #190 - on: 06.07.2009 at 02:48 [UT+1] »All planets have some sort of power, but it may not be the type of power people think of when they think ofpower.
The problem with this thread is that nobody has defined what kind of power they are talking about.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #191 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Aquariusly on 06.07.2009 at 02:48 [UT+1]:
All planets have some sort of power, but it may not be the type of power people think of when they think of power.
The problem with this thread is that nobody has defined what kind of power they are talking about.

Power is facility. The ability to integrate and coordinate your resources in action. (Pluto, by the way)
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #192 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:13 [UT+1] »no, the problem with this thread is that no one has answered my original question. "We" got off on a tangent
almost immediately, and no one has yet posted the chart of anyone they consider to be powerful. For example,
if you want to look at the various ways power is expressed, then post a chart and we can analyse the differences
between supposedly 'male' power expressing in a female chart and supposedly 'female' power expressing in amale chart. I would suggest looking at Eleanor Roosevelt's chart, for example, which is posted on page one ofthis thread. There was a woman with real, material power in the world. Where do we look in her chart to findthis power?
I will suggest that many people misunderstand what real power is all about, if the only place you can look for itis through J. I, considered a 'feminine' planet, has a power all her own, the power of grace, charm, illusion,
with a soupcon of magical fairy je ne sais quoi dust thrown in. As does D; as does E. To think otherwise...
well, go ahead. Do whatever you want. It's your brain.
I agree with you Aquariusly, all of the planets have their own, individual expressions of power; however, I findit delightfully funny that others think inside a box where only J is allowed to have that power. If you think of
the planetary energies the way the Greeks thought of the gods and goddesses who inspired them, it is easier to
see all the various planetary energies as possessing their own type of power.
This is not a box we need reside in.
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Goat1

Member

Re: Power« Reply #193 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:21 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.

Posts: 1055
Gender:Not one respected book of astrology says so.

J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
Who do you respect? What do they have? How did they get it?
You want power without respect? Oh, you can Enforce respect once you have power.
Ability -- ok, sure
Tycoonery -- ok, sure
Draft board -- ok, sure
Atomic bomb -- ok, sure
Mastery -- ok, sure
Understanding the true nature of reality -- ok, sure
Brutal truth -- ok, sure

Stephen,I like the stark clarity of your list.
Two points:
I believe respect can never be enforced, it must be earned; what Pluto can enforce may look like respect but it
is fear in mask.
Then also isn't it striking that Pluto when applied internally to the individual it clears away as brutally the stuff
that isn't needed and is in our own way.
Difficult to find a similar corollary to how it recklessly clears stuff in the larger systems of our combined lives.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #194 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Sherry Katz on 06.07.2009 at 03:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.
Not one respected book of astrology says so.

J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
Who do you respect? What do they have? How did they get it?
You want power without respect? Oh, you can Enforce respect once you have power.
Ability -- ok, sure
Tycoonery -- ok, sure
Draft board -- ok, sure
Atomic bomb -- ok, sure
Mastery -- ok, sure
Understanding the true nature of reality -- ok, sure
Brutal truth -- ok, sure

Stephen,I like the stark clarity of your list.
Two points:
I believe respect can never be enforced, it must be earned; what Pluto can enforce may look like respect but it is fear in mask.
Then also isn't it striking that Pluto when applied internally to the individual it clears away as brutally the stuff that isn't needed and is in
our own way.
Difficult to find a similar corollary to how it recklessly clears stuff in the larger systems of our combined lives.
SherryI agree completely. I don't believe one can enforce respect -- I thought I was being ironic. Thanks.
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truegem620

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Re: Power« Reply #195 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 01:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 23:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?
No, power is not a keyword for all planets. Power is something generated from the 'movement' of all bodies as one
complete and functional entity.(eg. power does not come from one's pluto alone- but is generated throughout an entire(functioning/ developing/ integrating) natal chart.

Posts: 4466
Gender:Quote:
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.
A blatant assumption based on premature evacuation of present knowledge.
Quote:
Not one respected book of astrology says so.
You must be tired from having read so much.
Quote:J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.
Evolution has already been touched upon here for being the generator that enforces power.
Quote:
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
You have an awfully negative regard to power. I might warn you against falling into that trap of one dimensional thought.

An attitude is not an argument. Its an astrology site, not Jen's Corner. The gang thinks I should ask permission to have opinions, and now
to read books on astrology, too. You really think it is my attitude that is obnixious, but that's just misandry talking.

You should actually read what someone has written and then respond according to that reply in lieu ofprojecting your own inanimate thought.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #196 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:36 [UT+1] »Mozart was an iconic symbol of power. Not only the very talented BmJ, but a chart with more quintiles andquintile-related aspects that most. The angular planets were BJO, a rare talent, perhaps a shattered soul.
To his biography and output I can add nothing.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mozart
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #197 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:39 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 03:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 01:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 05.07.2009 at 23:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
All planets represent power? 'Power' is a keyword for all planets?
No, power is not a keyword for all planets. Power is something generated from the 'movement' of all bodies
as one complete and functional entity.(eg. power does not come from one's pluto alone- but is generated
throughout an entire (functioning/ developing/ integrating) natal chart.

Quote:
Nahh! Some new attempt at politcal correctness.
A blatant assumption based on premature evacuation of present knowledge.
Quote:
Not one respected book of astrology says so.
You must be tired from having read so much.
Quote:J -- power (often by any means, by hook or by crook, ruthlessness)
E -- force (close but no cigar)
A -- willpower
G -- building step by step
No Pluto is the only planet that is consistenly given the key word power.
Evolution has already been touched upon here for being the generator that enforces power.
Quote:
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
You have an awfully negative regard to power. I might warn you against falling into that trap of one
dimensional thought.

An attitude is not an argument. Its an astrology site, not Jen's Corner. The gang thinks I should ask permission to have
opinions, and now to read books on astrology, too. You really think it is my attitude that is obnixious, but that's justmisandry talking.
You should actually read what someone has written and then respond according to that reply in lieu of projecting your own inanimate
thought.

My point exactly. Devoid of purpose, you had only attitude to counter with.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #198 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:47 [UT+1] »Einstein was not an athelete, a champion, or a soldier, yet he had the Minor Grand Trine, EqAqJ. Whatpower then? What heft did he wield? Because the chart says he was a heavy-weight. Another one with morequintiles and quintile-related aspects than the average.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Einstein%2C_Albert
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ShokkMember

Re: Power« Reply #199 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 06.07.2009 at 03:13 [UT+1]:
no, the problem with this thread is that no one has answered my original question. "We" got off on a tangent almost

immediately, and no one has yet posted the chart of anyone they consider to be powerful. For example, if you want to look at thevarious ways power is expressed, then post a chart and we can analyse the differences between supposedly 'male' power expressing in a

Posts: 226

female chart and supposedly 'female' power expressing in a male chart. I would suggest looking at Eleanor Roosevelt's chart, for example,
which is posted on page one of this thread. There was a woman with real, material power in the world. Where do we look in her chart tofind this power?

J I

I will suggest that many people misunderstand what real power is all about, if the only place you can look for it is through.
,considered a 'feminine' planet, has a power all her own, the power of grace, charm, illusion, with a soupcon of magical fairy je ne saisquoi dust thrown in. As does

D; as does E. To think otherwise... well, go ahead. Do whatever you want. It's your brain.

I agree with you Aquariusly, all of the planets have their own, individual expressions of power; however, I find it delightfully funny thatJ

others think inside a box where onlyis allowed to have that power. If you think of the planetary energies the way the Greeks thoughtof the gods and goddesses who inspired them, it is easier to see all the various planetary energies as possessing their own type of power.
This is not a box we need reside in.

Hmm, I think I may have been one of the contributors to the problem in the highlighted text. So much of thisthread that I've been reading through seems to have been just a quest to define what power is and whether"power" is specific enough to be boiled down to a set of things astrologically. As of now I think we either need avery strict definition of power or one could just construe every little thing astrologically to translate to power.
If we strictly looked at the issue of "power over (x)" as power, then we could come to a consensus about what
could signify an inclination towards a certain type of power, but we'd still have to stay open to other ways ofexerting power. When it comes down to it I think almost ANYTHING could be wielded as a means of power, justnot always in the traditional sense. And maybe J does indeed have some major say in matters of power, butthat just might be because J is a bigger power (in that it's more prevalent and noticable, in the sense that
Plutonian power might seem to be the dominant form of power)
For this thread to even accomplish anything for anyone though, I think we at least need to start thinking about
power in terms of "This form of power is signified by x" as opposed to trying to say "Power is [blank] and this iswhat we think could indicate it"
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #200 - on: 06.07.2009 at 03:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 06.07.2009 at 03:13 [UT+1]:
no, the problem with this thread is that no one has answered my original question. "We" got off on a tangent almost immediately, and noone has yet posted the chart of anyone they consider to be powerful. For example, if you want to look at the various ways power isexpressed, then post a chart and we can analyse the differences between supposedly 'male' power expressing in a female chart andsupposedly 'female' power expressing in a male chart. I would suggest looking at Eleanor Roosevelt's chart, for example, which is posted
on page one of this thread. There was a woman with real, material power in the world. Where do we look in her chart to find this power?
I will suggest that many people misunderstand what real power is all about, if the only place you can look for it is throughJ. I,

considered a 'feminine' planet, has a power all her own, the power of grace, charm, illusion, with a soupcon of magical fairy je ne saisquoi dust thrown in. As does

D; as does E. To think otherwise... well, go ahead. Do whatever you want. It's your brain.

I agree with you Aquariusly, all of the planets have their own, individual expressions of power; however, I find it delightfully funny thatJ

others think inside a box where onlyis allowed to have that power. If you think of the planetary energies the way the Greeks thoughtof the gods and goddesses who inspired them, it is easier to see all the various planetary energies as possessing their own type of power.
This is not a box we need reside in.

With a condescending attitude and a laughing emoticon, you dismiss every major scholar of astrology. You
replace it with a roll-your-own political correctness that will impress your political friends. Has your mind flitted
off with delusions of grandeur? Did you rewrite astrology? Remember, there are witnesses.
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Pisces63

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Re: Power« Reply #201 - on: 06.07.2009 at 04:06 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 06.07.2009 at 03:13 [UT+1]:
no, the problem with this thread is that no one has answered my original question. "We" got off on a tangent almost immediately, andno one has yet posted the chart of anyone they consider to be powerful. For example, if you want to look at
the various ways power is expressed, then post a chart and we can analyse the differences between supposedly 'male' power expressing ina female chart and supposedly 'female' power expressing in a male chart.

Ok, I'll bite! I consider this person (D) powerful, no one famous, a regular citizen. She is a masculine thinker
and feminine reasoner. Almost like she can't be touched, it is bizarre feeling from me. The gentleness is her
trump card!
Go-to-town with your analysis!
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I truly think she's narcissistic.

power.gif (attachment deleted)
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #202 - on: 06.07.2009 at 04:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Pisces63 on 06.07.2009 at 04:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from Syzygy on 06.07.2009 at 03:13 [UT+1]:
no, the problem with this thread is that no one has answered my original question. "We" got off on a tangent almost
immediately, and no one has yet posted the chart of anyone they consider to be powerful.
For example, if you want to look at the various ways power is expressed, then post a chart and we can analyse thedifferences between supposedly 'male' power expressing in a female chart and supposedly 'female' power expressing in amale chart.
Ok, I'll bite! I consider this person (D) powerful, no one famous, a regular citizen. She is a masculine thinker and feminine reasoner.

Almost like she can't be touched, it is bizarre feeling from me. The gentleness is her trump card!
Go-to-town with your analysis!
Lanette I truly think she's narcissistic.

Again with the gender? Who's gonna come out on top? The men or the women? The Great War. The War of
the Sexes.
You have a chip on your shoulder. You cannot discuss anything without dragging the topic back to the Chip onYour Shoulder, GENDER.
Really that's another thread. A bigotted rant, for sure, but another thread.
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truegem620

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Re: Power« Reply #203 - on: 06.07.2009 at 04:16 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 01:41 [UT+1]:
Coercion -- most especially Pluto
Blackmail -- most espeicially Pluto
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto
Underworld -- most espieciall Pluto
Crime -- Pluto more than mostRuthlessness -- oh yeh, Pluto
Pulling strings from behind the scenes -- ohh la, la Pluto
You called them negative, not me. I described them by name. Names you will find in the dictionary, which will not call them negative

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either.

Gender:I doubt your choice of power play words could be found grouped together in any dictionary.
Nor would any dictionary be able to point out your fixation on the lesser qualities of expression and using them
contextually to organize keywords to represent power.
What about the other functions
Quote:
Astrologically Pluto is called "the great renewer", and is considered to represent the part of a person that destroys in order to renew,
through bringing buried, but intense, needs and drives to the surface and expressing them, even at the expense of the existing order. A

commonly used keyword for Pluto is "transformation". It is associated with power and personal
mastery and the need to co-operate and share with another, if each is not to be destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets_in_astrology
Healing- regeneration-Interrogation---deeper truths
deep inner change and transformationtransmutation
replication- including our ability to replicate DNA
Pluto is 'associated' with power but power is not exclusively limited to pluto.
Quote:
Astrologically the sun is usually thought to represent the conscious ego, the self and its expression, personal power, pride andauthority; leadership qualities; and the principles of creativity, spontaneity, health and vitality; the life force.

Quote:
While Venus tends to the overall relationship atmosphere, Mars is the passionate impulse and action, the masculine aspect, and this goesbeyond sex into your drive, discipline, will-power and stamina.

Quote:
Pluto and its moon Charon form a unique pairing in the solar system because Charon is so massive relative to Pluto. This means that they
revolve in a 'dumbbell' formation around a common point in space lying between them, permanently locked in a 'power struggle' fordominance.[11] This is symbolic of the role Pluto has come to represent astrologically.

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truegem620
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Re: Power« Reply #204 - on: 06.07.2009 at 04:28 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 01:52 [UT+1]:
Jen, I miss the older avatar with your picture on it. You've got that Barbara Hershey, Debra Winger, and Whats-her-name thing going -beautiful.

ummm...good powers of observation by the way- not sure how you knew my name.

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truegem620

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Re: Power« Reply #205 - on: 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1] »Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

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Pisces63
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Re: Power« Reply #206 - on: 06.07.2009 at 04:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 04:11 [UT+1]:
Quote from Pisces63 on 06.07.2009 at 04:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from Syzygy on 06.07.2009 at 03:13 [UT+1]:
no, the problem with this thread is that no one has answered my original question. "We" got off on atangent almost immediately, and no one has yet posted the chart of anyone they

consider to be powerful. For example, if you want to look at the various ways power is expressed,then post a chart and we can analyse the differences between supposedly 'male' power expressing in afemale chart and supposedly 'female' power expressing in a male chart.

D

Ok, I'll bite! I consider this person ( ) powerful, no one famous, a regular citizen. She is a masculine thinker andfeminine reasoner. Almost like she can't be touched, it is bizarre feeling from me. The gentleness is her trump card!
Go-to-town with your analysis!
Lanette I truly think she's narcissistic.

Again with the gender? Who's gonna come out on top? The men or the women? The Great War. The War of the Sexes.
You have a chip on your shoulder. You cannot discuss anything without dragging the topic back to the Chip on Your Shoulder, GENDER.
Really that's another thread. A bigotted rant, for sure, but another thread.

Hmm, you are reading into my words Steve. When I wrote it, was a compliment, truly. In some ways, I'm
envious although there are aspects of myself that I don't see in her. Perhaps a little forward in my small print
as none of you have met this person. I lean away from 'labeling' people in general (my spiritual nature). Thereis just something different about her. I am highly intuitive, and when someone is in your life for 3 1/2 years,
being reflective on the past, is my nature.
The chart wheel needs oil Steve.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #207 - on: 06.07.2009 at 06:29 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

Nobody had more quintile and quintile-related aspects than Hitler. His first ambition was to be an artist. He
was rejected for admittance to art school a number of times. WWI showed him he was a good soldier, butpoison gas caused temporary blindness and insanity.
When he discovered his gift for oratory, he said, "I can speak. I can speak."Many astrologers speak of Pluto's tendency to destroy those who misuse it. Misuse the power offered by Pluto,
the saying goes, and it will fry you to a crisp.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #208 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:18 [UT+1] »Queen Latifah has CAnJO with Jp Mc and Aq Mc. This formation drives the chart with Jp MC. Angular
BoEG suggests a bitter past of hard feelings.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Latifah%2C_Queen
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #209 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:31 [UT+1] »Okay, well a quick look at the 4 charts posted seem to reveal a slight tendency air/cardinal - air I canunderstand as ability to conceptualise and express ideas and thoughts and cardinal to DO something. So muchof what we may consider powerful individuals is to take things forward to disrupt the status quo and change
others thinking. Except Hitler who's chart shows Earth cardinal - which is less about concepts and more about
the pragmatic, and I guess Hitler was replaying and changing (Rousseau?) old ideas in his own way and putting
them into action.

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Also this time including Hitler, there is a tense interplay on in these charts between the outer planets
FGOIJ sometimes with E, but also tense aspects with AB. When I looked at Karl Marx and Winston
Churchill they likewise had this kind of patterning. So the tense aspects between all outer planets point to aparticular group of people born within a specific period where F is within range of the larger aspect, and thenfor the individual in that group we see A/B tense aspect included.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Marx%2C_Karl
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Churchill%2C_Winston
I want add here that these individuals (except the mystery woman) have power in some form and arerenowned. So power on this grand scale goes hand in hand with fame/notoriety/standing out from the crowd so perhaps we should look at something on the MC?
Also, do I note a tendency to bowl shaped or bucket charts?
These people so far also represent ideas eg Washington - ideas that he structures and solidifies, Marx - ideas(relative lack of air!) that he propounds and others are inspired by to structure and solidify, Einstein - ideas that
we are still coming to terms with, Hitler - ideas that he operationalised and that we are trying to avoid orforget. But does this come back to us trying to categorise people and what they stand for and therefore they
start to symbolise or be conceptualised as representing something themselves - a whole different kind of power- they are icons of sorts in themselves, not people any more?
Any thoughts?

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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #210 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:18 [UT+1]:
Queen Latifah hasof hard feelings.

CAnJO with JpMc and Aq Mc. This formation drives the chart with JpMC. Angular BoEG suggests a bitter past

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Latifah%2C_Queen

Posts: 3675

Another Pisces Sun.
What power has this person got do you think? How do we classify and understand this to try to understand theconcept of power?
I don't really know anything about her, except the potted biography that seems to be a list of getting into
trouble with the law, being in some films and TV shows.
It does bring up that interesting question of celebrity and power - and the media delving into what these
individuals think (Lily Allen on almost anything|?!?!) as though it is of interest or useful and meaningful toanyone.
Here's one of our own - Jade Goody. http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1235232348/36#36
What power is here?

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #211 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:44 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 07:43 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:18 [UT+1]:
Queen Latifah has

CAnJO with JpMc and Aq Mc. This formation drives the chart with JpMC. Angular BoEG

suggests a bitter past of hard feelings.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Latifah%2C_Queen

Another Pisces Sun.
What power has this person got do you think? How do we classify and understand this to try to understand the concept of power?
I don't really know anything about her, except the potted biography that seems to be a list of getting into trouble with the law, being insome films and TV shows.
It does bring up that interesting question of celebrity and power - and the media delving into what these individuals think (Lily Allen on
almost anything|?!?!) as though it is of interest or useful and meaningful to anyone.
Here's one of our own - Jade Goody. http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1235232348/36#36 What power is here?

Glamor.
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #212 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:48 [UT+1] »Glamour as power.
Glamour and celebrity are intricately linked it seems. Is power shown by the ability to get others to pay
attention to you? Is power in the celebrity? Is glamour arising from celebrity, or celebrity from glamour?
These are not all externalised, extraverted charts.
Is the power of glamour meaningful? I mean, I guess we have made an assumption on this thread that power ismeaningful, has meaningful consequences - but does it necessarily?
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I will need to think about this one.

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #213 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:54 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 07:48 [UT+1]:
Glamour as power.
Glamour and celebrity are intricately linked it seems. Is power shown by the ability to get others to pay attention to you?
Is power in the celebrity? Is glamour arising from celebrity, or celebrity from glamour? These are not all externalised,
extraverted charts.
Is the power of glamour meaningful? I mean, I guess we have made an assumption on this thread that power ismeaningful, has meaningful consequences - but does it necessarily?
I will need to think about this one.

It is virtually the same as casting a spell with fairy dust. Awe, wonder, charisma. This is vastly enhanced by

ApI
It reminds me of the term 'magic powers'.
Glamor is more than a session with a make-up technician. It involves the attempt make oneself a legend.
Surrounded by an enterage. Noted for semi-intangibles.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #214 - on: 06.07.2009 at 07:58 [UT+1] »Edgar Cayce's chart does not come with greatest confidence of birth time accuracy. In fact, I have seen one
version with MC closer to Pluto and Uranus closer to Asc. Either way JBI is close to Mc.
What Cayce had are often referred to as 'powers'.

JI is the paranormal and the supernatural. With Moon, another big talent.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cayce%2C_Edgar
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #215 - on: 06.07.2009 at 08:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 07:48 [UT+1]:
Glamour as power.
Glamour and celebrity are intricately linked it seems. Is power shown by the ability to get others to pay
attention to you? Is power in the celebrity? Is glamour arising from celebrity, or celebrity from glamour?
These are not all externalised, extraverted charts.

Posts: 3675

Is the power of glamour meaningful? I mean, I guess we have made an assumption on this thread thatpower is meaningful, has meaningful consequences - but does it necessarily?
I will need to think about this one.

It is virtually the same as casting a spell with fairy dust. Awe, wonder, charisma. This is vastly enhanced by

ApI

It reminds me of the term 'magic powers'.
Glamor is more than a session with a make-up technician. It involves the attempt make oneself a legend. Surroundedby an enterage. Noted for semi-intangibles.

Mmm - I think that is interesting.

I think about power as the ability to do something. This kind of power

isn't about doing or changing it's about drawing and holding attention. I will think some more on this.
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truegem620
Member

Re: Power« Reply #216 - on: 06.07.2009 at 09:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 06:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

Nobody had more quintile and quintile-related aspects than Hitler. His first ambition was to be an artist. He was rejected for admittance toart school a number of times. WWI showed him he was a good soldier, but poison gas caused temporary blindness and insanity.

Posts: 4466
Gender:When he discovered his gift for oratory, he said, "I can speak. I can speak."Many astrologers speak of Pluto's tendency to destroy those who misuse it. Misuse the power offered by Pluto, the saying goes, and it will
fry you to a crisp.

Yes I've seen some of art work. Not really all that bad.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #217 - on: 06.07.2009 at 17:59 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 08:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 07:48 [UT+1]:
Glamour as power.
Glamour and celebrity are intricately linked it seems. Is power shown by the ability to getothers to pay attention to you? Is power in the celebrity? Is glamour arising from celebrity, orcelebrity from glamour? These are not all externalised, extraverted charts.
Is the power of glamour meaningful? I mean, I guess we have made an assumption on thisthread that power is meaningful, has meaningful consequences - but does it necessarily?
I will need to think about this one.

It is virtually the same as casting a spell with fairy dust. Awe, wonder, charisma. This is vastly enhanced by

ApI

It reminds me of the term 'magic powers'.
Glamor is more than a session with a make-up technician. It involves the attempt make oneself alegend. Surrounded by an enterage. Noted for semi-intangibles.

Mmm - I think that is interesting. I think about power as the ability to do something. This kind of power isn't about doing or changing it's
about drawing and holding attention. I will think some more on this.

She has millions of awed fans, millions of dollars, and a career. Can you do that?
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rookishMember

Re: Power« Reply #218 - on: 07.07.2009 at 00:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 17:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 08:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 07:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from rookish on 06.07.2009 at 07:48 [UT+1]:
Glamour as power.
Glamour and celebrity are intricately linked it seems. Is power shown by the ability
to get others to pay attention to you? Is power in the celebrity? Is glamour arising

Posts: 3675

from celebrity, or celebrity from glamour? These are not all externalised,
extraverted charts.
Is the power of glamour meaningful? I mean, I guess we have made an assumption
on this thread that power is meaningful, has meaningful consequences - but does it
necessarily?
I will need to think about this one.

It is virtually the same as casting a spell with fairy dust. Awe, wonder, charisma. This is vastly enhanced by

ApI
It reminds me of the term 'magic powers'.
Glamor is more than a session with a make-up technician. It involves the attempt makeoneself a legend. Surrounded by an enterage. Noted for semi-intangibles.

Mmm - I think that is interesting. I think about power as the ability to do something. This kind of power isn't about doingor changing it's about drawing and holding attention. I will think some more on this.

She has millions of awed fans, millions of dollars, and a career. Can you do that?

Why do you persist with such snide comments?
This portion of thread was about glamour/celebrity and power [as quoted] and you've moved it back to Queen
Latifah with a comment that makes me feel like you think I have denigrated her, when I have not in any form.
About Queen Lafitah - fans, dollars, career - fine, we can discuss power through her and what she does andwhether it is legend or image or whether there is something more tangible going on there and where power
resides.
But 'Can you do that?' - what is that all about? How does it even enter the dialogue? You seem to readmeanings into words that are just not there. Why do you do that?
« Last Edit: 07.07.2009 at 15:43 [UT+1] by rookish »Back to top

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Power« Reply #219 - on: 07.07.2009 at 18:35 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

Hitler:One good astrologer has rectified this chart so that Asc is 26g41 and Mc is 4e10. That puts Moon at 6j38.
I accept this.

JuO was withing 5 MINUTES of exact. Pluto squares the A/B midpoint and O semi-sqaures it. This isexactly descriptive of Hitler. A talent for extreme power, and a "shattered soul".
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Tim Wilson
Memberterrorism is Uranus, to Stephen« Reply #220 - on: 07.07.2009 at 19:47 [UT+1] »Stephen,
You said:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 05.07.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
Terrorism -- most especially Pluto

Posts: 4706

I think "terrorism" is one thing on your list that has more to do with O (friends, also rebellion, restructuring).
The goal is not to be "powerful", but instead to tear down, destroy, and undo the existing structure(s).
"Terror" is a tool used to make this happen. And one person's "terrorism" is another person's "freedomfighting" (another O ruled thing). Of course, the result of terrorism might be a person or group becoming
more powerful, but that is not the same thing as the energy used to create the result.
Uranistically,
Tim

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realworld

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Re: Power« Reply #221 - on: 07.07.2009 at 20:02 [UT+1] »Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

Whenever we talk about people having power, we have to discuss what, or who, they have power over.
With Hitler, if the German people had not been "ready" for what he offered, I doubt if he would have got very
far with his "Kampf" (struggle).
Liz Greene ascribes the Neptune-Pluto conjunction of the 1880s as being the main source of subtle power,
psychological manipulation and use of spiritual principles for people born at that time, which includes a large
number of our spiritual gurus, like Yogananda and Dane Rudhyar, political leaders like Joseph Kennedy and
Chiang Kai-Shek, artists/writers like Picasso and Virginia Woolf, and film stars like Charlie Chaplain (born fourdays before Hitler).
Greene points to the conjunction being unaspected, in Hitler's 8th house as bieng easy for others to grab onto
and live for him. He really didn't have to do much in arousing anti-semitism, because it was a powder keg that
had been growing for 2000 years, and especially since Martin Luther had lit the fuse several hundred years
previously in Germany. It was the people of Germany who found a voice for their frustrations in Hitler, andmany of them also were born with that IJ conjunction.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #222 - on: 07.07.2009 at 20:28 [UT+1] »I agree that JI (unaspected) contributed to Hitler and certainly to a generation affected by him. The JO
sesquiquadrate was within 5 minutes of exact, which is not a feature shared by many charts. Anyway A/BoJ
and A/B#tO.

OJ -- extreme power, deadly groups (Nazis), blitzkrieg ("lightning war"), genocide (death J of races O)
Uranus/Pluto really was descriptive of Hitler. The quintile has been called the "Pluto aspect par excellence".
Hitler's Fifth Harmonic chart was the leading force in the wide acceptance of John Addey's theories about
harmonics and hormonic charts.
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Re: Power« Reply #223 - on: 07.07.2009 at 20:40 [UT+1] »[quote author=Lisalu link=1246145650/80#92 date=1246309777]Quote from rookish on 29.06.2009 at
11:47 [UT+1]:
OED:
power
• noun1 the ability to do something or act in a particular way. ( don't think of this as just masculine)
2 the capacity to influence other people or the course of events. (this could be either as well)
3 a right or authority given or delegated to a person or body. ( this could ne femenine or masculine)
4 political authority or control. (same here)
5 physical strength or force. (females do this as well)
6 a country viewed in terms of its international influence and military strength: a world power. (neuter)
7 capacity or performance of an engine or other device. (neuter)8 energy that is produced by mechanical, electrical, or other means. (neuter_9 Physics the rate of doing work, measured in watts or horse power. Mathematics the product obtained when a number is multiplied byitself a certain number of times.(neuter)
These are all masculine attributes aren't they? Energy, strength, authority, control.
Mars, Saturn, Pluto.

i don't think power has a sex or gender or whatever yous wanna call it. power is power and I agree with J
representing this.
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language
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Re: Power« Reply #224 - on: 07.07.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 07.07.2009 at 20:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

Whenever we talk about people having power, we have to discuss what, or who, they have power over.
With Hitler, if the German people had not been "ready" for what he offered, I doubt if he would have got very far with his "Kampf"(struggle).
Liz Greene ascribes the Neptune-Pluto conjunction of the 1880s as being the main source of subtle power, psychological manipulation anduse of spiritual principles for people born at that time, which includes a large number of our spiritual gurus, like Yogananda and Dane
Rudhyar, political leaders like Joseph Kennedy and Chiang Kai-Shek, artists/writers like Picasso and Virginia Woolf, and film stars likeCharlie Chaplain (born four days before Hitler).
Greene points to the conjunction being unaspected, in Hitler's 8th house as bieng easy for others to grab onto and live for him. He really
didn't have to do much in arousing anti-semitism, because it was a powder keg that had been growing for 2000 years, and especially since
Martin Luther had lit the fuse several hundred years previously in Germany. It was the people of Germany who found a voice for theirfrustrations in Hitler, and many of them also were born with that
conjunction.

IJ

Chaplin and Hitler's charts provide some very interesting ways into this idea of 'power'.
Fascinating how this unaspected collective configuration falls in the 7th for one and the 8th for the other. Bothcaught the imagination of the Zeitgeist, in Hitler's case the humiliation of the German people after the 1st
world war and the subsequent rise in Nationalism (I) and Paganism(J).
Although this was arguably the pivotal astrological symbolism as to why he became the voice of the Third Reichthe rest of his chart needs a bit of attending to.
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #225 - on: 07.07.2009 at 22:12 [UT+1] »interesting that you include paganism under the umbrella of J, language... I think I might have attached it toG, Capricornus, the goat, Pan, etc...

. Interesting.

thanks to those who are actively bringing up charts of people you perceive to be powerful. interesting
additions. Hitler is a given... astro-databank has his chart too, btw. Someone said he would not have risen to
power without the concomitant will of the people allowing it.. this is such an important point. Power neverresides in one person alone, not in politics, certainly. The will of the people is just as important and works as acounterbalance for those 'in power,' even when the people are, or are perceived to be 'powerless.' Just in thepast few days, there have been deaths in China (yet again) as the once politically 'powerless' now have thepower to protest issues that once would have been unthinkable. This is one of the pieces of evidence that power
is constantly negotiated, and is never static. If it exists in one person's, or one country's hands, it will surely
rest somewhere else eventually.
The power/powerlessness of the masses is always defined in relationship to the person/people in power. The
question then becomes, where does 'true' power lie at the moment of a severe schism or paradigm break...
with the masses or the "one" in power? All individuals in positions of power have a coterie surrounding them,each with a piece of "the" power. This, to me, is the fascinating thing about power, that it never belongs to any
one person... the extent to which believing that power rests with one person is an illusion... the power of I toconvince you of something reality says does not exist.

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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Power« Reply #226 - on: 08.07.2009 at 00:48 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 07.07.2009 at 21:29 [UT+1]:
Quote from realworld on 07.07.2009 at 20:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from truegemini62073 on 06.07.2009 at 04:34 [UT+1]:
Who has power?
Why not Hitler?
Pretty powerful person if you ask me.

Whenever we talk about people having power, we have to discuss what, or who, they have power over.
With Hitler, if the German people had not been "ready" for what he offered, I doubt if he would have got very far with his"Kampf" (struggle).
Liz Greene ascribes the Neptune-Pluto conjunction of the 1880s as being the main source of subtle power, psychologicalmanipulation and use of spiritual principles for people born at that time, which includes a large number of our spiritualgurus, like Yogananda and Dane Rudhyar, political leaders like Joseph Kennedy and Chiang Kai-Shek, artists/writers like
Picasso and Virginia Woolf, and film stars like Charlie Chaplain (born four days before Hitler).
Greene points to the conjunction being unaspected, in Hitler's 8th house as bieng easy for others to grab onto and live forhim. He really didn't have to do much in arousing anti-semitism, because it was a powder keg that had been growing for2000 years, and especially since Martin Luther had lit the fuse several hundred years previously in Germany. It was thepeople of Germany who found a voice for their frustrations in Hitler, and many of them also were born with that
conjunction.

IJ

Chaplin and Hitler's charts provide some very interesting ways into this idea of 'power'.
Fascinating how this unaspected collective configuration falls in the 7th for one and the 8th for the other. Both caught the imagination of
the Zeitgeist, in Hitler's case the humiliation of the German people after the 1st world war and the subsequent rise in Nationalism ( )Iand Paganism(

J).

Although this was arguably the pivotal astrological symbolism as to why he became the voice of the Third Reich the rest of his chart needsa bit of attending to.

This is the first time I have heard of I symbolizing nationalism. I have seen that it is Cancer, Moon, andFourth House.
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language

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Re: Power« Reply #227 - on: 08.07.2009 at 01:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 07.07.2009 at 22:12 [UT+1]:
interesting that you include paganism under the umbrella ofPan, etc...

J, language... I think I might have attached it to G, Capricornus, the goat,. Interesting.

In the birth chart of the Third Reich Pluto is in the 3rd conjuncting the IC. This speaks to me, although I may
have had these ideas put in my head before, about how German Neopagan ideas, which many of the Nazi party
entertained (Hitler took a dim view of some of this later on) fed into the 'roots' of the party's ideology.
The chart also has a Sun/Saturn conjunction in the 10th.
Neopaganism is linked to the worship of nature so the Moon is going to be heavily involved as well. Here it is inAries (Aryan) in the 12th so 'collective/racial memory/ancestry' is going to be part of the mood of the
movement, albeit more unconscious and subliminal. Pluto = Paganism was a bit sweeping as it's such a diverse'movement'. (Jung commented on some of this in his Wotan book).
In ''Neptune'', Greene talks about the Aryan nation/purity as being symbolised by both Pluto and Saturn.
Although the Third Reich may have been more of a romanticised Neptunian movement, it didn't shy away fromwhat it saw as the Purification of the Motherland. Neptune formed a wide conjunction with Mars in this chart, 2
planets in archetypal conflict, so the will power could be symbolised as being affected by 'collective fantasy'. In
the 5th as well so all very subjective.
I only commented on this as it's interesting how Hitler appears to have bumped into power according to the
biographers and was then taken over by it, whereas Chaplin went looking for it more, in the form of fame on
the silver screen. Being unaspected meant this conjunction was operating outside of Hitler's personality so ittakes on a more autonomous quality enabling him to be more of an unconscious and undiscerning channel forthe then German inferiority complex.
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language
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #228 - on: 08.07.2009 at 01:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 08.07.2009 at 00:48 [UT+1]:

This is the first time I have heard of

I symbolizing nationalism. I have seen that it is Cancer, Moon, and Fourth House.

What is Nationalism?
Neptune would suggest it is effected by idealism, salvation, utopianism, romanticism, delusion..........and a
return to the Garden of Eden.
The Moon is a personal planet so I'm not sure how it can be assocaited with collective movements or longings,
or even politics generally.
When Neptune was discovered Europe was awash with Nationalist movements.
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #229 - on: 08.07.2009 at 02:06 [UT+1] »I'm sorry, language... which conjunction are you speaking of when you say it's unaspected? In Hitler's chart orthe chart of the Nazi party?
Fascinating information; thank you so much. When you speak of neopaganism in relationship to Hitler and the
Nazis, are you also including the worship of Wotan/Odin, as seen through the 'high romance' of Wagner's musicthat Hitler et al. incorporated into the Nazi/German mythos?
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language
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #230 - on: 08.07.2009 at 02:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 08.07.2009 at 02:06 [UT+1]:
I'm sorry, language... which conjunction are you speaking of when you say it's unaspected? In Hitler's chart or the chart of the Nazi
party?
Fascinating information; thank you so much. When you speak of neopaganism in relationship to Hitler and the Nazis, are you also
including the worship of Wotan/Odin, as seen through the 'high romance' of Wagner's music that Hitler et al. incorporated into the
Nazi/German mythos?

Hitler's, by 1933 they were no longer such close associates.
Wagner was influenced by some of the 19th century ideas on racial purity and inter-breeding so no doubt hewould have been an influence for some later Nationalists, but how peripheral or not you'd have to ask aHistorian or a Musicologist. I know some say his ideas were misused by the Nazis. I'm no expert on German
Neopaganism, it's quite a murky movement that took it's ideas from various sources fermenting at the time.
Jung felt the Germans, particulary the youth movement, had been taken over by this ancestral archetype
namely Wotan thus the frenzied madness. Jung, like astrologers, was attacked for the idea that the collective
unconscious can prove stronger than the will of the individual. I doubt the 'Wotan' defence held much muster
at Nuremburg.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #231 - on: 09.07.2009 at 22:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 06.07.2009 at 03:47 [UT+1]:
Einstein was not an athelete, a champion, or a soldier, yet he had the Minor Grand Trine,

EqAqJ. What power then? What heft did hewield? Because the chart says he was a heavy-weight. Another one with more quintiles and quintile-related aspects than the average.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Einstein%2C_Albert

Hindsight is so 20/20 ...
I'd say O (Uranium) retrograde in f says he was all about nuclear power.

O certainly playing the "orchestrator" in that chart.
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Angelique
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Re: Power« Reply #232 - on: 11.07.2009 at 11:15 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 28.06.2009 at 00:34 [UT+1]:
Is there someone in particular you find powerful and compelling?

"As God said, and I think rightly..."(Margaret Thatcher, true quote!)

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #233 - on: 11.07.2009 at 16:46 [UT+1] »All right... here's Margaret Thatcher's chart.
now, why does that h ASC not surprise me?
I shall try not to offend anyone with the virulence of mynegative opinions about MT. You don't need to hear that much bile this early in my morning.
Okay, here's where my prejudices come out. See that nasty little G sitting on the cusp of her ASC, but positedin her 12th? That's the root of all her evil, in my opinion. If you have no wish to discuss that, that's cool. I'll
just go off to continue my study of Swedish. Or, Svensk.
Is there anything worse than an idealist (BmI) in power with G/h in the 12th?? I ask you.
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Marshal Crown
Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #234 - on: 11.07.2009 at 19:25 [UT+1] »For some reason whenever I think of Margaret Thatcher, I remember reading somewhere what her favorite
music recording is or was, the instrumental classic "Telstar" by the Tornados.
"Margaret Thatcher has a mixed relationship with music. Her favourite pop song, Telstar, was the first single bya British group to reach number one in America in 1962. It’s producer, Joe Meek, whose recording studio wasabove a shoe shop on the Holloway Road, committed suicide. One factor behind his death is believed to bebecause a French hack film music writer claimed Joe had stolen the melody of `Le Marche d'Austerlitz' and used
it in Telstar resulting in all income from Telstar being frozen. In a nutshell there is the Thatcher ethos at home
and abroad; British ingenuity and small business chutzpah is appreciated in America but strangled by theenvious French. The whole of her foreign policy was guided by such instincts and the memory of Joe Meek."
http://www.fandmpublications.co.uk/pages/maggieandmusic

To me this seems very telling, is this significant ??
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Kwabena

Member

Re: Power« Reply #235 - on: 11.07.2009 at 21:04 [UT+1] »I am a powerful communicator!
KWABENA i
Posts: 461
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #236 - on: 12.07.2009 at 02:42 [UT+1] »interesting, Kwabena... so did that CRx have any effect on you, do you think? Has it gone direct in yourprogressed chart?

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TeddybullMember

Re: Power« Reply #237 - on: 12.07.2009 at 13:18 [UT+1] »Tim,
Interesting about Uranus. Power can easily assume control and manipulate when there is chaos. Most people
who have harsh underhanded qualities do have hard aspects with Pluto (sun sq pluto, mars opp pluto, saturn sq
pluto, even jupiter sq pluto (fanaticism). Possibly past life karma of misused power issues. Power is freedom
Posts: 462
Gender:not to be ruled by past bad habits, moods, senses. Because one has power over people, does that necessarilymean that he is a powerful person?
This is where all the planets play a role, as someone mentioned about power.
One trait I do find incredibly powerful is when people are silent. You don't know where they are coming from.
When they speak it is like a bullet. Rambling people are basically insecure and can be more easily manipulated.

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Re: Power

Victorine
Ex Member« Reply #238 - on: 12.07.2009 at 16:27 [UT+1] »Elvis Costello's view on the 'power' of Tatcher

Great protest song..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Znn5a-88tY
artists can always reach greater masses than theorists.
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Re: Power

Kwabena

Member« Reply #239 - on: 13.07.2009 at 14:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 12.07.2009 at 02:42 [UT+1]:
interesting, Kwabena... so did that

Posts: 461

CRx have any effect on you, do you think? Has it gone direct in your progressed chart?

Hey!
First and foremost, thanks for asking.
According to my Progressed Chart, it has gone direct - only thing is I do not know when it went direct. In someways, I still consider myself to act as though it is still in retrograde, but overall I have gotten better in thearea(s) of thought, speech, and communication.
KWABENA i

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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #240 - on: 13.07.2009 at 23:37 [UT+1] »well, you can change the date on your progressed chart (just keep regressing it) until you find out when it went
direct, and see if anything happened for you then about your communication skills, etc.
I have a Rx G in my natal that will go direct in the progressed chart sometime in 2011. So... we shall see if theheavens part and my life suddenly becomes easier. I personally doubt it; it's a glyph on a chart, not apromissory note from the gods. I tend to take a rather skeptical view of all of this, but I keep my mind open topossibility.
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betushka

Ex Member

Re: Power« Reply #241 - on: 14.07.2009 at 00:21 [UT+1] »It is interesting that when people think about power the first things that come to mind are charismatic politicalfigures or tyrants. I wonder do any of you feel power personally, I know I do. I have J retrograde firsthousepA9th house and I feel very powerful, but my power is not over others it is over myself.
I don't think having power/or influence over others is actually having power. It is like a double-edged sword. If
you take power from someone then you become responsible for them, for their actions. Going back to tyrants
like Hitler, he took power from the German people and now is responsible for all the ills of that time period
even though logically he is just a single person and many were actually responsible. That is of course an
extreme example.
Whenever I feel powerless I just accept that I can't contol the world or what others do I can only be in chargeof me and take power from that thought.
I would look at the charts of people like Ralph Waldo Emerson(self-reliance), Leo Graf Tolstoi(law of love andlaw of violence, the Kingdom of God is within you), and Ghandi or MLK JR(Non-violent resistance) or similarpeople to understand power.
-b
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primitribe
Member

Re: Power« Reply #242 - on: 14.07.2009 at 00:37 [UT+1] »Everytime I see Putin's face, I sense this chilly (almost shivery) feeling as imagining all the dark business (which
I do not want to describe!) he must be capable of without a hesitation nor a remorse. Is it only my fantasy? I
dunno, but when I tried to think 'Who seems to be powerful', his face popped. So I just checked out his chart
for the first time. I was stunned!
He's h rising, Pluto m eMC! p E in 2nd house, and they both (J&E)
make q to CGG in 12th.
I wonder how the ACGIoO play out for him though.
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Re: Powerbetushka

Ex Member« Reply #243 - on: 14.07.2009 at 00:45 [UT+1] »Tolstoi/Tolstoy's chart, I notice his Jis also retrograde. Sorry I didn't know his birthtime. For anyone that
doesn't know why I would find him powerful, his writings on non-resistance to evil greatly influenced bothGhandi and MLK JR. Quite powerful material but unlike so many other historical figures mentioned previously
he is not taking power from others.
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SyzygyEx Member

Re: Power« Reply #244 - on: 14.07.2009 at 00:55 [UT+1] »excellent; thank you for the inclusion of those charts. Putin, Russia, Tolstoy. Interesting combination.
Betushka, I'm wondering if you can comment on Tolstoy's chart. Now, this was a man who was born and raisedamongst the aristocracy of Russia, and became aware of class issues fairly late in life. I'm wondering if you
would care to comment more about any of that? There's certainly much that could be said about him, his
writing, choice of subject matter, etc.
This is precisely why power is such a fascinating subject; because it underlies the common, everyday reality that'we' are forced, because we're too busy dealing with surface nonsense, to ignore. Yet writers like Tolsto(i/y),
Pushkin, Dostoevsky, and so many others in Europe of the Modern period, were compelled by the political
upheaval taking place around them to write about this very subject.
I often wonder if the 'postmodern' era is more casual about issues of power because we are not surrounded by
the turmoil Europe was going through during the period Tolstoy was writing in.
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Re: Power

betushka

Ex Member« Reply #245 - on: 14.07.2009 at 01:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Syzygy on 14.07.2009 at 00:55 [UT+1]:
excellent; thank you for the inclusion of those charts. Putin, Russia, Tolstoy. Interesting combination.
Betushka, I'm wondering if you can comment on Tolstoy's chart. Now, this was a man who was born and raised amongst the aristocracyof Russia, and became aware of class issues fairly late in life. I'm wondering if you would care to comment more about any of that?
There's certainly much that could be said about him, his writing, choice of subject matter, etc.
I often wonder if the 'postmodern' era is more casual about issues of power because we are not surrounded by the turmoil Europe wasgoing through during the period Tolstoy was writing in.

SyYes true it was later in life that he became more aware of class issues, but even in early works(his novels andshort stories) you can see him playing with these ideas. His later writings are what I like most, he did not havea happy love life and so I think he turned his heart to the world instead of one person. His DmG mabye had togo throgh many Greturns to develop fully. Mabye also effects from a transit or progression. I'm not so goodwith anything besides basic natal charts so I will leave someone more experienced to fiddle with that. I justwanted to post him because it is a differnt viewpoint of power then what most were mentioning.
And here is Emerson's chart, his essay "self-reliance" is also very influential. Interesting to note that people inRussia were sent to the Gulag if they were caught with a copy of his essay.
I don't know that writing about power is dead in the water it just seem to have gone underground. You canfind arguments hidden in things like childrens/YA literature. I notice a lot of contemporary authors trying to
grab power for their group/personal identity through writing. An obvious one is Phillip Pullman writing forAtheism.
-b
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Kaden
Member

Re: Power« Reply #246 - on: 25.07.2009 at 05:09 [UT+1] »Quote:
Ralph Waldo Emerson(self-reliance), Leo Graf Tolstoi(law of love and law of violence, the Kingdom of God is within you), and Ghandi or
MLK JR(Non-violent resistance) or similar people to understand power.

All of these men would have said their power came from their faith in God and willingness to do God's work.
Much of what each of them wrote is about individual divinity and the rewards that come with recognizing thatfor all.
Good karma kind of power...individual responsibity, compassion for others, truth, doing the right things
Posts: 628

Bad karma kind of power ... weapons, lies, standing on others to boost yourself, doing things that shouldn't be
done.
The fulcrum is sitting on one's butt and not exercising one's talents either way.
Kaden

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Kaden

Member

Re: Power« Reply #247 - on: 25.07.2009 at 05:25 [UT+1] »Syzygy To address your original question about our own charts...
With someone's Vertex being exactly conjunction my Anti-vertex...power flip-flopping for 20years. Productive
and non-productive at any given moment.
Node alignments, tight VenusmMars aspects, tight B aspects ... very under-the-radar power that seems to
make so much more sense when allowing the concept of past-lives creep in.
Posts: 628

If you were to combine these first two in the right arena, you'd have a great power-couple. I think anyone who
has risen to great power who has not have an influential second-half, has probably had a single-eye toward
God. Someone fuels their fire.
Heavy on the f - l axis ... I get walked on all the time, like I'm volunteering for it and my mouth is zippered
shut to object. Zaps my A and E in a.

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Re: Power« Reply #248 - on: 25.07.2009 at 08:04 [UT+1] »A late guest here on this topic..
I think the way you handle the power you have bears meaning. Children often use emotional power to gettheir will. They manipulate you to do according to what they want. Of course they test different ways the use of
their personal power. That´s J. The big manipulator. The right use of power is to use it straight, of course. Tellwhat you wan´t or not and let others make their desicions if they agree or not with you. Big manipulators on
this arena are the cryers. (Not tears of compassion or mourning) When their will is not met they tend to change
your will with tears. Oh, I can´t stand it! Emotional manipulators... J is feminine/manipulative in its core.
Politicans are powerfull speakers. They use it to get their will on you. A 3th matter. A powerful salesperson talks
you around. These people can also try by appealing to the emotional side of yours turn your will as they pleases
them. The power can be used for one´s one good (to get the money or your vote) versus yours or societys.
I think one could look after a wise use of power or signals of being selfish.
The authorative power, the father type, is G. The Gian power is the stamina, to steady grip on things. A 10H
matter. A weak G means that you do not master your own life properly. You are easily lead by others. Herecomes the Iian dimesion. Yoy could also misslead others or yourself. What about manipulative skills of G?
I think lazy people, those who always keep others busy doing your job uses manipulative power too. Or maybe
they use the time to think when others keep on working... they don´t see what others do.
When thinking of how you get the power it came to my mind that people could use charisma for that. E andI.
They say that beautyful people gets easyly jobs.DABF. Beatymarkets use these factors. To manipulate..
What kind of power is there behind? Money, and plenty thats J? To make money you need maybe creativity orother skills.. Well, to make people belive, the idealism, I?
-----------------------Jag är förvånad och glad över dina studier i svenska språket. Lycka till med studierna!
I´m amazed and pleased to read that somebody are readind swedish. I´m trying to get used to write her inenglish! The table is turned around Good luck with the studies, Syzygy.
Bibbe
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Kaden

Member

Re: Power« Reply #249 - on: 25.07.2009 at 20:53 [UT+1] »Bibbe, I agree that manipulation is a good tool for attaining power. Makes me think of E in there as themilitary leader...part warrior/strength and part peace-keeper. Ability to strategize and communicate your plan
without any misinterpretation then become key.
Endurance has got to be in the mix, too. A history of following through. Tight grounding to a core belief
system. Waffling is a weakness.
...it's a soup pot : )Posts: 628
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Syzygy
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Re: Power« Reply #250 - on: 27.07.2009 at 01:44 [UT+1] »bibbe, Det är mycket roligt att lära! I am getting better too; I knew what you said, except for "förvånad". I still
have a long way to go. I do not know any pronunciation yet, not really.

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