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LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH (Read 8011 times)

Gene Ray
Member

LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« on: 21.08.2007 at 19:48 [UT+1] »Hello allHere is a link that describes lunar apogee & perigee for those who want to discover more about it. As to why it

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Gender:came to be known as "Black Moon Lilith" there is a second link.
Whether you place any Astrological value on it or not is up to you.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/moon_ap_per.html
http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/Lillith.pdf
Gene Ray

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Alishaya

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #1 - on: 21.08.2007 at 19:51 [UT+1] »Thank you.

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Alois
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Astrodienst Staff
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #2 - on: 22.08.2007 at 12:25 [UT+1] »Dear Gene,I wrote yesterday in another thread about the confusion some astrologers (mostly Americans) create by using'Lilith' for something else than the Lunar Apogee.
I am afraid by presenting your second link above, you add to the same confusion.
I suggest to call this object 'Waldemath Black Moon' or 'Waldemath fictious Moon'.
This is what I wrote in the Waldemath thread:
Quote:

Posts: 1975
Gender:..., I think your original posting (top of thread) is the cause of much confusion.
The articles you linked refer to a purely fictious imaginary object, claimed to have been observed by Waldemath in the 19th century.
See also http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm#_Toc129145869
Lilith = Lunar Apogee however is a clearly defined point of the Lunar orbit, and very popular in French astrology throughout the 20th
century. It is also popular in Germany and Switzerland since the late 1980ies, when the first books about it were published.
If anyone says Lilith in the context of European astrology (Astrodienst and astro.com belong to this context) then it means Lunar Apogee,
and nothing else.
I suggest we keep it like this on this forum. If you want to refer to any other object, please do not call it Lilith.

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Spiral 28

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #3 - on: 22.08.2007 at 13:13 [UT+1] »Thank you, Gene and Alois. I have the feeling now that this woman Lilith is nothing but trouble, just as we
suspected in the beginning, and I will not allow her to come into my chart to cast a cloud on what has been
illuminated and has brought joy to me.
I would vote for Astro to move it furthur down the list in options for our charts. It is in the way of moving

Posts: 3639
Gender:quickly down to pick up Fortuna and Vertex. Chiron is placed on our charts automatically. While South Nodenever is. I dearly love this amazing site we have found here and everyone who has put it together, but if I see
this troublesome woman Lilith, she will be banished from my house.
This should be easily done, of course, because even when she is there, she is not there.

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RuudVissioen
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #4 - on: 22.08.2007 at 13:57 [UT+1] »Some time ago people also banished a troublesome woman from their house.
The result was the Trojan War.

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Jeanette

Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #5 - on: 22.08.2007 at 14:26 [UT+1] »They didn't banish her she was seduced.

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Gene Ray
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #6 - on: 22.08.2007 at 14:58 [UT+1] »Hello Alois
I am not sure you read the entire link. Yes it starts off by talking about the fictious moon but in the whole ofthe text it comes to Apogee. I think people can put that into context if they read the entire link.
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Gene Ray[Alois comment: I admit I did not read the entire link. I dislike this confusion about Lilith very much. From an
european perspective it is 100% clear what is meant by it]

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Spiral 28

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #7 - on: 22.08.2007 at 15:05 [UT+1] »I am trying to establish the value of Lilith and to put her in perspective within the interconnections to the restof the circle.
At least Helen of Troy had her beautiful face that was not a dark mystery, and Penelope had her son
Telemachus and her constant weaving and unraveling in her waiting. What does Lilith have? She is nebulous.
I cannot pinpoint her purpose in the chart.
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Gene Ray
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #8 - on: 22.08.2007 at 15:14 [UT+1] »Hello Spiral
Neither can I. The study of several charts that is discussed near the end of the 2nd link seems to try to

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Gender:establish that there is a strong sexual component (all women in the study) and that there is an outward
expression of power. According to a statement in the text about the Myth that was Lilith in the bible, she was
the first wife of Adam and was upset with Adam because he wanted to be "on top" in the sex act. She felt that
this was a positon of "submission" and refused, mentioned god's secret name and turned into a demon.
Now of course (in my mind at least) the story is pure myth, but the chart study seems to be looking at thenature of Lilith as indicating a strong, sexual, demanding and unbending woman.
Others may take something else away.
Gene Ray

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RuudVissioen

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #9 - on: 22.08.2007 at 17:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Jeanette on 22.08.2007 at 14:26 [UT+1]:
They didn't banish her she was seduced.

Was Eris seduced??

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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #10 - on: 22.08.2007 at 17:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Spiral 28 on 22.08.2007 at 13:13 [UT+1]:
I have the feeling now that this woman Lilith is nothing but trouble, just as we suspected in the beginning, and I will not allow her to comeinto my chart to cast a cloud on what has been illuminated and has brought joy to me.
I would vote for Astro to move it furthur down the list in options for our charts. It is in the way of moving quickly down to pick up Fortuna
and Vertex. Chiron is placed on our charts automatically. While South Node never is. I dearly love this amazing site we have found here
and everyone who has put it together, but if I see this troublesome woman Lilith, she will be banished from my house.

This is surely one of the most naive posts I have ever read. Isn't it obvious why Lilith exists? Of all the planetsin the solar system, only two are considdered to represent the fminine principle: the Moon and Venus, the rest
represent the masculine principle, Lilith is surely there to readdress this balance. I have my Moon conjunct
Lilith and I would be very concerned if anyone actually tried to banish Lilith entirely from their charts, without
Lilith I get the feeling people would never be able to liberate themselves from unhappy or abusive marriages orpolitical dictatorships. I also find blanket descriptions of Lilith very unhelpful, having read any of the blurb on
Lilith it should become obvious that it is in Lilith's nature to carve individuality, everyone's inheritance of lilith isthus very personal and invidialised.
Having read the previous thread on lilith, I found the literature posted there very helpful, which correctly
identified Lilith as a point not belonging solely to the Moon but to the Earth-Moon system, Lilith is the point at
which both the Earth and the Moon are furthest from each other. I find this very helpful to remember. Lilith
herself does not deny the feminine principle, she simply exists in a solar system where the feminine is largely
denied.
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judyanne

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #11 - on: 22.08.2007 at 18:26 [UT+1] »LOL! Spiral 28, you're joking, right? At least I read it as such.
I have Lilith in Aquarius smack on my MC, and though I'd love to banish her, she seems to enjoy wreaking
havoc in my relationships with authority figures.

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IP LoggedWai KeongEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #12 - on: 22.08.2007 at 18:38 [UT+1] »Another perspective of Lilith :http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/lilith-dark-moon.html
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Spiral 28

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #13 - on: 22.08.2007 at 18:53 [UT+1] »Knoxy, that was my lame attempt at humor.
real person being kicked out of my abode.

The woman gets on my nerves, and I was imagining her as a
Sorry to distress you.

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Don M

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #14 - on: 22.08.2007 at 19:07 [UT+1] »within each individual, BML describes the facet of human experience that has been most ruthlessly repressed the deepest hunger of the soul along its path way back to wholeness. the difficulty seems that we cannot makean effort to express that repressed energy and thereby reclaim it into ourselves - we have to carve away
everything around the BML dynamic that is not wholesome - working with and releasing the repression andPosts: 282
Gender:darkness, - and then she comes into her natural expression effortlessly. to get to BML - we all become
feminine to a profound degree .......

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Spiral 28

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #15 - on: 22.08.2007 at 19:21 [UT+1] »Quote by Don M :"we have to carve away everything around the BML dynamic that is not wholesome - working with and releasing
the repression and darkness, - and then she comes into her natural expression effortlessly"
Don, this reminds me of the dynamic image of finding our inner shining value that C.S. Lewis talked of inseveral of his lectures at Oxford in his published essays. That of our shining value of our true self within being
like a diamond covered by centuries of thick dirty cover that needs to be grinded and carved away by stressful
Posts: 3639
Gender:situations, pressure, facing the hardest circumstances, and feeling the heat of our decisions, the pain of our
choices. To break through underneath what we have been programmed to believe, to rise above conformity.
Releasing the repression and darkness.

To expose the diamond within.

If Lilith represents those extreme forces which do not allow us to be hypocrites and cowards, then she iswelcome back into my circle.
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Don M
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #16 - on: 22.08.2007 at 21:03 [UT+1] »Spiral 28 - i suspected your postings were a clever expresssion of the basic psychology surrounding BML
issues....
personally, with BML in aries on the NN in the 6 th in opposition to a 12 th house libra mercury/neptune /SN
conjunction, i especially connect with your quote about a diamond covered by centuries of thick dirty cover.
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Gender:sometimes our high ideals can mask the most insidious and entrenched forms of repression......

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Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #17 - on: 22.08.2007 at 21:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Spiral 28 on 22.08.2007 at 19:21 [UT+1]:
Quote by Don M :"we have to carve away everything around the BML dynamic that is not wholesome - working with and releasing the repression anddarkness, - and then she comes into her natural expression effortlessly"
Don, this reminds me of the dynamic image of finding our inner shining value that C.S. Lewis talked of in several of his lectures at Oxford
in his published essays. That of our shining value of our true self within being like a diamond covered by centuries of thick dirty cover thatneeds to be grinded and carved away by stressful situations, pressure, facing the hardest circumstances, and feeling the heat of ourdecisions, the pain of our choices. To break through underneath what we have been programmed to believe, to rise above conformity.
Releasing the repression and darkness. To expose the diamond within.

If Lilith represents those extreme forces which do not allow us to be hypocrites and cowards,
then she is welcome back into my circle.

Thankyou.
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viola magmar
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #18 - on: 22.08.2007 at 21:39 [UT+1] »the way I know the story, it is that she fled, exactly because she did not want to be seduced by Adam, of whom
she is mythologically supposed to have been the first woman "allotted"
In force of this act of independence, she has been depicted (sure by men) as mixing with demons andgenerating monsters who she would then eat, remorseful and revengeaful. But this act of devouring andgenerating perpetually might also signify inner necessity of swallowing, digesting and eating again until thegood stuff is found and metabolised. And the, the regenerating process starts. Maybe.
Posts: 7555
Gender:It's a quite simple and naive interpretation, but at this time of night I cannot do better
thanks, gene ray.
Spiral 28, the tone of your first reply was not humourous at all. I sensed you really "hate" great, fierce, terrible,
needy Lilith.
I accept her. She hides down deep in all of us. No sense denying her. Better come to terms.
love. violita

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Gene Ray

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #19 - on: 22.08.2007 at 22:42 [UT+1] »Hello allHere is a quote from a discussion about measuring the positon of black moon lilith.
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Gender:5-) the transformation from barycentric to geocentric is never made in astrological practice. It results in an
oscillation of +- 0,40' when the Black Moon is defined as the apogee, and of +- 6.4 degrees when it is definedas the empty focus of the orbit. In other words, the geocentric position of the apogee can differ by more than 6
degrees from the geocentric position of the empty focus of the orbit. They are the same only in the barycentricreference frame, not in the geocentric.
Now my assumption is that Astrodienst defines lilith as the apogee (roughly the moons far point of travel) andis measured geocentricly (from the center of the earth).
The barycentric postion pertains to (I believe) the positon of center of gravity between the earth and the Moon(the empty focus of the orbit).
Since the variation can be as much as + or - 6.4 degrees the distiniction is important.
Perhaps someone who knows for sure can tell us?
Gene Ray

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #20 - on: 23.08.2007 at 00:23 [UT+1] »you are referring to: http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/barycentric.html
If you read the notes added in yellow to the discussion above or the explanation added to the Swiss Ephemeris
documentation, you will realize that the change from barycentric to geocentric refers only to the "Mean" versionof the lunar apogee, and that it is astronomically meaningless because by definition "mean" excludes the shortterm barycentric-to-topocentric variations.
In other words "mean barycentric" and "mean geocentric" should be astronomically the same quantity. The
distintion between barycentric and geocentric --in the case of the "Mean" apogee-- according to the author is"mainly academic or didactic, or ilustrative of the effect such a distinction between barycentric and geocentric
can have on the coordinates"
The most significant or important distinction happens when changing from a geocentric to a topocentric(parallax) perspective, as is explained in detail in the above dicussion. In these cases, the empty focus and theapogee can differ by up to 7.9 degrees, so whether the Black Moon is defined as the lunar apogee or as theempty focus of the lunar orbit can make a difference of almost 8 degrees only if one is working with topocentric
positions. Geocentrically the 2 values are the same.
B.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Gene Ray

Member« Reply #21 - on: 23.08.2007 at 23:18 [UT+1] »Hello Blanca
You wrote: so whether the Black Moon is defined as the lunar apogee or as the empty focus of the lunar orbit
can make a difference of almost 8 degrees only if one is working with topocentric positions. Geocentrically the 2
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Gender:values are the same.
B.

Thanks. I am a geocentric sort of guy (ha) so I don't have any worries about where BML is now. Now I justhave to consider whether it has value or not.
Gene Ray
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IP LoggedMyrios
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #22 - on: 24.08.2007 at 18:36 [UT+1] »Quote from viola magmar on 22.08.2007 at 21:39 [UT+1]:
the way I know the story, it is that she fled, exactly because she did not want to be seduced by Adam, of whom she is mythologicallysupposed to have been the first woman "allotted"
In force of this act of independence , she has been depicted (sure by men) as mixing with demons and generating monsters

who she would then eat, remorseful and revengeaful. But this act of devouring and generating perpetually might alsosignify inner necessity of swallowing, digesting and eating again until the good stuff is found and metabolised. And the, the regeneratingprocess starts. Maybe.
It's a quite simple and naive interpretation, but at this time of night I cannot do better
thanks, gene ray.

Spiral 28, the tone of your first reply was not humourous at all. I sensed you really "hate" great, fierce, terrible,
needy Lilith.

I accept her. She hides down deep in all of us. No sense denying her. Better come to terms. love. violita

Violita ~ I got the same impression ~ no humor signals evident for me ~ maybe turned about by peerpressure ~ but Lilith is welcomed back on certain conditions.
I rather think your observations are intuitive and perceptive.
Perhaps this Natural, essential-to-life, devouring, digesting, ex*spell*ling, motion that developed aroundimagery of the Serpent/Snake/Ouroboros/Uroborus ~ i.e. the serpent eating its own tail, really is the ore*gynal
perpetual motion machine ~ SUN Re*presents an Astrological Engine (Hermes Trismegistus) ~ theas*true*logic*all*en*gyne (Astrological Engine) linked with the Spiralling Serpent as a metaphor for the(entwining) path of the Sungod around the geocentric viewer ~ 365 coils in a year.
Really sever*all symbols Eve*Vulva*D (evolved) separately ~ but con*joined around the serpent ~ life
principals of eating and defecating back into the soil (ground of our being) EARTH ~ along with the seasonal
death of vegetation associated with Sun/Son & Four Sea*Sons.
There is a complexity here which can take one on a merry-go-round or ring-a-rosy or mish-mash of sigils,
logos, symbols, and boxed rings.
But over all, stands the RAPTOR ~ (eagle) which sigil is a ring with the wings of the high-flying (most noble)
lion-become-eagle ~ Lord of the Ring? The Snake Ring path of the Sun/Son?
The Raptor is most notably evident at the top of the medical profession's Caduceus taken from Hermes andnaturally enough the Eagle is representative of strong male dominions (where doe*minions languish).
Regardless of Lilith's TRUE NATURE ~ still to be further evulved eye think ~ it is most telling to me that the
FRENCH studied her ~ why? Where are these studies? Why do so few astrological types (in my observationsin this forum) understand what they are talking about when Lilith is mentioned? And why does everybody's
brother know about SUN SIGN Astrology but hardly anyone knows anything of Lunar Astrology?
The other thing I find wyrrd here, is that few astrologers appear to actually go out and look at the sky. They
might learn a lot more about Moon/Lilith/BML/DarkMoonLilith/Waldemath/Selene/Isis/WhiteMoonLilith if theyobserved her first hand.
Eye De*fine*eye*tie*lie did.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #23 - on: 24.08.2007 at 18:54 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 22.08.2007 at 19:07 [UT+1]:
within each individual, BML describes the facet of human experience that has been most ruthlessly repressed - the deepest hunger of thesoul along its path way back to wholeness. the difficulty seems that we cannot make an effort to express that repressed energy andthereby reclaim it into ourselves - we have to carve away everything around the BML dynamic that is not wholesome - working with andreleasing the repression and darkness, - and then she comes into her natural expression effortlessly. to get to BML - we all

become feminine to a profound degree .......

I agree about Ruth*less re*press*ion and Dee*pest hung*er for wholeness.
So hurry up guys ~ make the Eff*fort.
MyriosBack to top

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #24 - on: 24.08.2007 at 19:53 [UT+1] »I found this discussion by Tom Jacobs interesting and useful:
http://www.tdjacobs.com/user/BML%2015Jun07doc.pdf
Quote:
Use of the mean BML is an echo of the preference of Eve over Lilith, of controlled(/-able) blandness over an unpredictable aliveness: thetrue BML gives us trouble in her erratic travel, just as Lilith gave Adam; the true BML is unmanageable, just as Adam found Lilith. The
mean position will never offer meaningful and useful insights into the true nature of Lilith, as Eve can tell you nothing meaningful or
useful about Lilith

B.
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viola magmar

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #25 - on: 24.08.2007 at 20:30 [UT+1] »Hi Myrios,
quite representative, the absence of either a Mars or Venus or Mercury glyph under your name
Do you know what symbol I had tattooed on my right forearm, seven years ago: a winged woman sitting on
the Ourobouros. And do you know what are my Totems (yes, I seem to have two

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Gender:): the Eagle and the Lion.

So, I understand what you've been writing about...
And yes, I gather I'm evolving into a perceptive being. Thank you for taking care of my post. I like the way you* and* and* and all that

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viola magmar
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #26 - on: 24.08.2007 at 20:40 [UT+1] »One more thing, Myrios: not all Astro-logikers
possibly live in big cities

are so lucky as to live in places where stars are visible. Many,

ps: I love old Hermes
ciaooooooo.violita

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Gene Ray

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #27 - on: 24.08.2007 at 21:58 [UT+1] »Hello all
One more post before I take off for the weekend. The Lilith you see in the selection box (along with Vertex etc)
Posts: 3329
Gender:is the true apogee of the moon, or Black Moon Lilith. If you want to see the mean BLM enter h21 in the box
below that and you can see the difference in True and Mean BLM.
Now it seems to me that the true BLM represents an instinctual drive (from what I read). This drive resists
rules, laws and conventions. There is not good or bad only instinctual drive. Some say pre human, but it
seems to me that there is often a drive for power at least in the few charts I have seen. Of course much must
depend on sign and house placement and if true BLM conjuncts (other aspects count?) a planet.
Anti-Saturn (form and structure at least man made structure) Anti-Jupiter (reasonable law and justice, areliance on philosophical thought)
Similar to Uranus/Mars/Pluto combination. Freedom, rebellion/ impulse, selfish/compulsion, sexual instincts
etc.
So now to decide whether in reality the true BLM has discernible effects.
Have a good weekend
Gene Ray

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IP LoggedMyrios
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #28 - on: 24.08.2007 at 22:08 [UT+1] »Violita voila ~ its a shame eye know ~ no*skies ~ whit*ed out by our own ewe*man Bee*daZZZle.D.Ness
Allotted ~ dettolA ~ DEE tollah*ed? eye a d'tollah?
Lilith to A*dam~mad*A allotted ~ ewes ay?
Dettol is a poison eh?
All Otted (aughted)
Aught as in Naught or NO-Thing?

Hmmmm.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #29 - on: 24.08.2007 at 22:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 24.08.2007 at 21:58 [UT+1]:
Hello all
One more post before I take off for the weekend. The Lilith you see in the selection box (along with Vertex etc) is the true apogee of themoon, or Black Moon Lilith. If you want to see the mean BLM enter h21 in the box below that and you can see the difference in True andMean BLM.
Now it seems to me that the true BLM represents an instinctual drive (from what I read). This drive resists rules, laws and conventions.
There is not good or bad only instinctual drive. Some say pre human, but it seems to me that there is often a drive for power at least in
the few charts I have seen. Of course much must depend on sign and house placement and if true BLM conjuncts (other aspects count?) aplanet.
Anti-Saturn (form and structure at least man made structure) Anti-Jupiter (reasonable law and justice, a reliance on philosophical thought)
Similar to Uranus/Mars/Pluto combination. Freedom, rebellion/ impulse, selfish/compulsion, sexual instincts etc.

So now to decide whether in reality the true BLM has discernible effects.
Have a good weekend
Gene RayHy Gene ~ eye know ewe can work it out with a pencil.
At least that's what ma*thema*po*ticians say. Have fun ~MyriosBack to top

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viola magmar
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #30 - on: 24.08.2007 at 22:38 [UT+1] »wowwwwwwww
Allotted ~ dettolA ~ DEE tollah*ed? eye a d'tollah? Cool
that's very, deeply, interpreted
Ai wu-on* Di*h/er V-u*oTT (vuoto=Void) T-HyPP-e of lan*Gouache* chi- he's H's eOR (ORA=Pr-e*a*y)pc
Go*a-T?
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Gender:I wonder what type of language keys has your pc got? Challenging
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CranberryMember

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #31 - on: 25.08.2007 at 02:55 [UT+1] »I'm keeping my BML......she reminds me of "Miss Kitty" on Gunsmoke. Sexy, sure, truthful, unafriaid to befemale.....taking no guff....fair and generous to any deserving human. She doesnt pander to any inequality.
BML gets a special seat in my house.

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sharasa
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #32 - on: 25.08.2007 at 03:47 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 24.08.2007 at 21:58 [UT+1]:
Hello all
One more post before I take off for the weekend. The Lilith you see in the selection box (along with Vertex etc) is the true apogee of themoon, or Black Moon Lilith. If you want to see the mean BLM enter h21 in the box below that and you can see the difference in True andMean BLM.

I thought h13 was the true BML - I get 3 different values for the Lilith in the selection box, h21 (about 1
degree difference between those 2) and h13 which is in a different sign about 16 degrees difference. Other info
I've read and instructions to find each point has agreed with the position of h13 for true BML
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths/message/15
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Spiral 28

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #33 - on: 25.08.2007 at 04:55 [UT+1] »Exactly why she gets on my nerves, Shar.

If she is not any one place for sure, then she is nowhere.

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vertexEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #34 - on: 25.08.2007 at 07:27 [UT+1] »Quote from sharasa on 25.08.2007 at 03:47 [UT+1]:
Quote from Gene Ray on 24.08.2007 at 21:58 [UT+1]:
Hello all
One more post before I take off for the weekend. The Lilith you see in the selection box (along with Vertex etc) is the true
apogee of the moon, or Black Moon Lilith. If you want to see the mean BLM enter h21 in the box below that and you can
see the difference in True and Mean BLM.

I thought h13 was the true BML - I get 3 different values for the Lilith in the selection box, h21 (about 1 degree difference between those
2) and h13 which is in a different sign about 16 degrees difference. Other info I've read and instructions to find each point has agreed withthe position of h13 for true BML http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3Liliths/message/15

I had put the Lilith on the back burner for awhile,but from memory h13 is the TRUE black moon lilith. The Lilithon the pull down menu is the MEAN black moon lilith. asteroid #1181 is asteroid lilith. h58 is Waldemath dark
moon lilith (or "Waldemath ficitious satellite"). Between TRUE vs MEAN BML, from what I've read in the past,
the TRUE (h13) BML is the one that has astro significance.
Quote from Spiral 28 on 25.08.2007 at 04:55 [UT+1]:
Exactly why she gets on my nerves, Shar. If she is not any one place for sure, then she is nowhere.

Do you feel the same way about the lunar nodes? There are mean and true values for the lunar nodes.
(In my chart, true lunar nodes certainly have astrological significance. I haven't decided about true BML)

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viola magmar

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #35 - on: 25.08.2007 at 08:19 [UT+1] »My wrists hurt for sitting here ticktacking on this pc keys... I must find a better position for it.
I shall try the various options, see which one applies best and let you know.
Spiral28,

you challenge me, involuntarily I know... Are WE "anywhere" to be really found?
Posts: 7555
Gender:Is the so-called GOD anywhere to be seen with eyes and touched with hands?
Or isn't any manifestation of perfection hidden behind Iside's veil?
And there's where Lilith or BML goes and lures... it's what we bear deep inside that drives us to choose whatreflects and attracts us.
UhUh: awakeninggoodmorningtalking
Cranberry- Quote:"I'm keeping my BML......she reminds me of "Miss Kitty" on Gunsmoke.

Sexy, sure, truthful, unafriaid to befemale.....taking no guff....fair and generous to any deserving human.
BML gets a special seat in my house. "She doesnt pander to any inequality.

That's how I would have put it.
Blanca:Never read a better article on the subject. So insightful... so simple... so true and full of understanding. So
superbly CREATIVE

Thank you sosomuch for the link.

Gene: and many thanks to you for having brought up the subject and attracted the right people into it
Thanks to all. violita« Last Edit: 25.08.2007 at 21:41 [UT+1] by viola magmar »Back to top

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sharasa
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #36 - on: 25.08.2007 at 13:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Spiral 28 on 25.08.2007 at 04:55 [UT+1]:
Exactly why she gets on my nerves, Shar. If she is not any one place for sure, then she is nowhere.

Or everywhere
I haven't studied her as others have but I do like having her in my chart. Check out this link and the lyrics for"Bitch"- for me it describes Lilith's influence well. http://www.antonialangsdorf.de/dateien/astrologieantonia-langsdorf-isar5.php
I think understanding her is maybe something you grow into after you're tried to be the way you think is
expected of you and found it didn't work. Regardless of the interpertations out there, for me Lilith represents
the parts of you that are so essential to who you are that to supress them means a part of you suffocates orwithers away. I think for many of us that part is mostly unconscious so we don't become aware of it until wehave compromised it and felt it's loss.
She's the archtype who is on our side Spiral.
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viola magmar

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #37 - on: 25.08.2007 at 13:41 [UT+1] »Sharasa, visit also the link Cranberry has pasted. It's Primatschuss. violita

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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #38 - on: 25.08.2007 at 20:39 [UT+1] »I forgot to say, when I read about American talk show host, Rosie O'Donnell's televised outburst against
billionaire Donald Trump last year, I instantly thought it was the effects of a Lilith transit and sure enough, I
checked her chart from Astrotheme and true BML was conjunct her Moon on the very day she made theoutburst against him.
She was instantly vilified by conservative media in true Lilith fashion, but if you look closer at what her point
was, Rosie was condemning the fact that a Miss America pageant constestant was being treated by Trump as if
her destiny was solely in his hands after she made some mistakes partying too hard. This seems to besomething Lilith simply can't stand; the notion that a woman's destiny is a man's job to direct, control or
rectify.
The effects of BML in transit can sometimes be difficult to see, but I think this was a very obvious and public
display of Lilith's desire for emotional liberation.
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Spiral 28

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #39 - on: 25.08.2007 at 23:52 [UT+1] »No, Violita, that is a good point. And, yes, I do like challenging everyone.
We ARE nowhere that we are sure of being. We ARE made of stardust and nebulous mindthought and spiralnebula. We look at a Universe that was over millions of years ago. And we think we "see" it. So do weactually see ourselves or others ? We would be horrified if we really knew what is "real".
Vertex, your question of the Mean Node and True Node, luckily they are fairly close together, and to me thePosts: 3639
Gender:balancing of the Nodes is the true key to our birthchart, so I can follow the transits to them along with their
Sabians to realize our Potential and our Overflow. The difference is that I know what the Nodes are to ourlives, as much as we are allowed to know, knowing so little at present, but with Lilith, we don't. Perhaps
we have ascribed to her what we want her to be.
mode tells me, "Beware".

My intuition tells me she is much more,

and my protective

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CranberryMember

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #40 - on: 26.08.2007 at 04:34 [UT+1] »Blanca...
What a super link for Black Moon Lilith!! I'm with Viola on this.....incredbile info! Thanks so much!
Cran

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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #41 - on: 27.08.2007 at 18:42 [UT+1] »Quote from Spiral 28 on 25.08.2007 at 04:55 [UT+1]:
Exactly why she gets on my nerves, Shar. If she is not any one place for sure, then she is
nowhere.

The Moon is unpredictable and you can't seem to fix her?
Frustrating yes.
Even when you can't see her, you know she is there.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #42 - on: 27.08.2007 at 19:02 [UT+1] »"perhaps we have ascribed to her what we want her to be?"Who is this we who have A*scribed value/no*value?
And surely if this is the we now present here, we can Ray*color (pun not intented)Lilith any way we choose,just as we can Re*color eve*R*eye*thing eL*Se.
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Friesiangal

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #43 - on: 28.08.2007 at 00:39 [UT+1] »In my humble opinion the best way to understand the meaning behind the Black Moon called Lilith is not totalk about it but TO STUDY IT! Where it is in your chart and the aspects it makes, what happens 'deep inside'
when it is activated by or activates a planet. Only then can you feel from deep within what it is trying to reveal
to you.....which your Self may or may not be prepared to openly (allow) admit(tance)
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is a good start.
Friesiangal.

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Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #44 - on: 28.08.2007 at 14:58 [UT+1] »Hello Friesiangal
I think you are correct. I will start by looking at conjunctions to BLM wheter natal, progressed or transit & see
if anything is there.
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Gene Ray

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Knoxy143

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #45 - on: 28.08.2007 at 15:21 [UT+1] »I mentioned that BML was conjunct Rosie O'Donnell's Moon on the day she made a televised attack on Donald
Trump for holding a press conference saying he would give her a second chance. I've included a YouTube link tothis event below. I think Rosie's behaviour is typical of Lilith's outrage when she deems someone's destiny isbeing kept prisoner by another, especially by men. Trump's counter-attack on Rosie is also typical of Lilith's
vilification and being "thrown out" of the "Garden of Eden" of corporate America. The event was obviously
extremely tabloid but I think it demonstrates the effects of Lilith very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiipd-3UXsc
Other prominant Lilithians include Jane Fonda, feminist author of "The Female Eunuch" Germaine Greer,conservative American pundit Bill O'Reilly, singer Enya, Jesse Jackson and Alfred Hitchcock.
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Jupiter's
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #46 - on: 28.08.2007 at 16:23 [UT+1] »MemberOkay - I have been dissing BML for years as an impossible point - but I can accept the idea of the moon's
apogee having meaning.
my question: what about perigree? why would it not have meaning as well???

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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #47 - on: 28.08.2007 at 16:30 [UT+1] »Jupiter's Daughter: The Moon's pergree is called Priapus and from what I understand it was seen to represent
some sort of male ferility deity....or something, I can't quite remember. I think it can be seen to represent a
point of emotional contentment or abundance. There is a number you can enter into the extended chart
selection here to show Priapus' exact location in a chart, I'll try and find it and post it here.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Jupiter's
Daughter« Reply #48 - on: 28.08.2007 at 17:32 [UT+1] »Memberplease do!

- it's not on my copy of the asteroid list that I DL'dBTW weird to think contentment is associated with a medical condition of being stuck for hours in an erectioin
without being able to orgasm ----I would think this was more a point of frustration!

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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #49 - on: 28.08.2007 at 19:11 [UT+1] »Found it, codes for Lilith and Priapus are:h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'
h22 Interpolated Lunar Perigee (Priapus), also called 'Natural Perigee'
I'm not sure if the code for Priapus given is for mean Priapus or true Priapus (if there is such a thing) Perhaps
the moderators could verify?
Yes, Lilith and Priapus don't seem to have an easy time in the astrological pantheon!
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judyanne
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #50 - on: 28.08.2007 at 19:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 28.08.2007 at 19:11 [UT+1]:
h22 Interpolated Lunar Perigee (Priapus), also called 'Natural Perigee'

Thank you! I found mine, in Cancer, and it completes a loose Water Grand Trine with my Moon and Venus.
I had a feeling Priapus would be a significant placement for me, and I was right.

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She'sMember

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #51 - on: 28.08.2007 at 20:00 [UT+1] »I've always thought of Priapus in strictly phallic terms...literally!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapus
I would love to know what the astrological meaning of this point would be.

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Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #52 - on: 28.08.2007 at 21:22 [UT+1] »Hello allCurrently my Progressed Moon is conjunct Natal BLM (True). Its about 1 degree past partile.

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Nothing has happend (yet) that resembles anything Ive read about BLM.
(Prog Moon outside in green in Sag)
Gene Ray
Prog_Moon_conjunct_BLM.gif (attachment deleted)
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #53 - on: 28.08.2007 at 22:16 [UT+1] »Gene, you don't seem to be open to BML revellation ~ in my own experience, that is how BML appears to work

~ in my own chart, the revelation was also related to a Uranian transit over BML in Pisces, where BML opposes
my Virgo Sun.
How do you interpret your own natal BML with Uranus in this chart?
Something may still happen Gene - or already did, but you didn't notice it had anything to do with BML. Is
that possible?
Sincerely,
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Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #54 - on: 28.08.2007 at 23:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 28.08.2007 at 22:16 [UT+1]:
Gene, you don't seem to be open to BML revellation ~ in my own experience, that is how BML appears to work
~ in my own chart, the revelation was also related to a Uranian transit over BML in Pisces, where BML opposes my Virgo Sun.

Posts: 3329
Gender:How do you interpret your own natal BML with Uranus in this chart?
Something may still happen Gene - or already did, but you didn't notice it had anything to do with BML. Is that possible?
Sincerely,

MyriosHello Myrios
Yes it is quite possible. Your point is well taken. The P Moon conjunction to natal BLM occurs in the 5th house.
I have a daughter who has BML in the middle and conjunct both Natal Sun and Venus & her Ascendant(within
two or three degrees of each planet and a little over four degrees from her Natal Ascendant.. She has been in akind of "party mood" lately and has been going overboard in certain areas, like rebelling against her last
employer (a male) I can agree that our charts often show things that happen to other important peoplein ourlives whether we know it or not. My daughter is 20 and is moving from her present place of residence to San
Fransisco, about 100 miles away. Note Progressed Moon in Sagattarius very near T Pluto.
I am trying not to be quick in judging bml one way or another. These things take study and I have not seen
nearly enough charts. My BLM opposes Uranus (accidental ruler of the 7th house in my chart) and I have often
been attracted to BML type women. Time will tell.
Gene Ray
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Friesiangal

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #55 - on: 28.08.2007 at 23:54 [UT+1] »Hi again Gene,

Posts: 6820
Gender:I study the mean position of BML which is on 12+ Sag. in your chart, closely aspecting both natal Mars andPluto. As far as I can count it doesn't make any adverse natal aspects. This could well mean that you associate
your BML energy with a Mars-Pluto energy. Where is the touch of Sagittarius you must feel in such energy?
Direct Tr. Jupiter conjoined MEAN BML end January and retrograded over it again end June-July. Does thiscoincide with anything of a Jupiter nature? Third pass is during September. With Jupiter ruler of Sagittarius, I
cannot conceive that you are not inwardly feeling anything going on.
Your 3rd house sec. progr. Sun is on 5 Scorpio, whilst transiting MEAN BML is now within orb of the exact
conjunction next week. Maybe that will clinch any 'not knowing' for you
Friesiangal

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Jupiter's
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #56 - on: 29.08.2007 at 01:55 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from judyanne on 28.08.2007 at 19:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Knoxy143 on 28.08.2007 at 19:11 [UT+1]:
h22 Interpolated Lunar Perigee (Priapus), also called 'Natural Perigee'

Posts: 1767

Thank you! I found mine, in Cancer, and it completes a loose Water Grand Trine with my Moon and Venus.
I had a feeling Priapus would be a significant placement for me, and I was right.

ah yes... Priapus is making a lovely square to your Sabian, Self-Satisfying Donkey!
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Jupiter's Daughter

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #57 - on: 29.08.2007 at 02:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 28.08.2007 at 19:11 [UT+1]:
Found it, codes for Lilith and Priapus are:h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'

Posts: 1767

h22 Interpolated Lunar Perigee (Priapus), also called 'Natural Perigee'
I'm not sure if the code for Priapus given is for mean Priapus or true Priapus (if there is such a thing) Perhaps the moderators could
verify?
Yes, Lilith and Priapus don't seem to have an easy time in the astrological pantheon!

Okay - I ran all 3 points wiht LIllith - and got 3 different Lilliths - the lillith you click on is 1* from theinterpolated Lillith, which is 15* from osculating Apogee.... Alois, could you explain whkat click on lillith is here
at astrodeinst, if it is not either of hte lunar apogees you also offer???
I spent some time today looking at transits to click-on lillith and found significant events, the timing of which
was off for other transits - then I realized that it was also at my far Sun/Moon midpoint - so now i have to go
back and see if there are also significant events at 22 Virgo - but i don't think so
as for Priapus, well, there's a donkey of a different color - I'll have to check this out....
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judyanne
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #58 - on: 29.08.2007 at 03:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Jupiter's Daughter on 29.08.2007 at 01:55 [UT+1]:
ah yes... Priapus is making a lovely square to your Sabian, Self-Satisfying Donkey!

Haaaaahaha! You are too funny.

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DavidGBEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #59 - on: 29.08.2007 at 03:48 [UT+1] »Stop with the hating already...

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Friesiangal
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #60 - on: 29.08.2007 at 09:00 [UT+1] »Whilst studying MEAN BML, that seems to refer to a deep inner feeling/need and/or talent seeking
manifestation of expression, I notice that this expression often surfaces 'outwardly' through the opposing sign.
It made some kind of sense to me that BML's association with the furthest point of (unexpressed) feeling, i.e.
moon's apogee, should find release through its nearest point to Earth, i.e. moon's perigee. I had never heard ofPosts: 6820
Gender:'Priapus' until reading of it several years ago, which is gradually becoming a point of significance in (modern)European astrology. As a result of the growing interest in BML, I don't know.
To be honest I haven't searched the web for a Priapus ephemeris to research this further and simply take theopposing sign and house as reference. As the Moon's orbit of daily motion is not regular, you can't say that
'Priapus' is exactly opposite BML. There will always be several or more degrees difference, according to what
lunar apogee is used.
Using Gene's BML position in Sagittarius simply as reference, it does make sense that his BML creative talentwould surface through Gemini in the 11th house and gain recognition through a sign and house so closely
associated with impersonal group activity of a communicative nature, of which this forum is but one example.
Friesiangal.

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #61 - on: 29.08.2007 at 10:32 [UT+1] »Quote:
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'
h22 Interpolated Lunar Perigee (Priapus), also called 'Natural Perigee'
I'm not sure if the code for Priapus given is for mean Priapus or true Priapus...

"Priapus" is simply the point of opposition of the Black Moon in all the different ways of calculating it except
one -- the "natural" or intepolated apogee and perigee. This is because the interpolated apogee and perigee
dispense completely with the idea of an ellipse, and is the reason why Astrodienst offers their position as aseparate calculation. In all other cases the concept of "Priapus" is completely unncessary and redundant --in myopinion-- because it symbolism is that of an opposition to the Black Moon, as Friesiangal has suggested.
It is the same with the lunar nodes, in that Black Moon and "Priapus" are the 2 extreme points of one single
axis. But there is something important involved here: if the Black Moon is conceived as the empty focus of thelunar orbit instead of as the apogee, then "Priapus" is completely meaningless astronomically, and becomes
simply the opposition point of the Black Moon, while the Black Moon cannot be considered an axis anymore.
Personally, I think the interpretative richness of the Black Moon comes from the symbolism of the empty focus,
not from the apogee, and in this context "Priapus" makes no sense. The symbolical richness of the empty focus(the "kenofocus"or "other" focus) is heavily limited or impaired when we identify it exclusively with the "Lilith"character or archetype. This identification in my opinion is an excess, and "abuse" of Lilith. The identification
with Lilith in my opinion is very unfortunate, because there is a lot more to the Black Moon than Lilith, andthere is a lot more to Lilith that the black Moon --as Gene Ray correctly feels.
The true or "osculating" Black Moon is literally a womb, a cave, a hollowness, and as long as Lilith is constrained
to it she will be chained and enraged, because Lilith as an archetype extends to other planetary realms far
beyond the lunar orbit, and being encaged in the Black Moon makes her suffer without end. The Black Moon
extends beyond the Lilith symbolism and encompasses a more primal and transcendental archetype, that of theunreachable and infinitely fertile "primal womb", the uroborus, the "Mother Earth" or "Great Mother", the great
all-ecompassing womb from which we all came and to which we cannot return without being swallowed anddestroyed by it --except through a psychologically dangerous and painfull alchemical process of "creative
regression".
B.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #62 - on: 29.08.2007 at 11:25 [UT+1] »Please note that if we dispense with the idea of an ellipse --as in the natural (=interpolated) alternative forcalculating the Black Moon, then the concept of an "empty focus" tends to become meaningless astronomically,it "looses focus", and an important part of the symbolism traditionally assigned to the Black Moon looses its"aliveness" and begins to fade. Likewise, if we establish the predominace of the symbolism of the empty focus(of the instantaneous or "osculating" ellipse --the true Black Moon) then the astrological meaning of theinterpolated alternatives --based on the times of natural occurrence of apogee and perigee-- begins to loose
focus and fade away.
The lunar apogee (not the perigee) is the external manifestation in the natural world of the invisible and"ghostly" empty focus of the lunar orbit, i.e., there is an apogee because there is an empty focus and an ellipse:
the apogee is "its face" reflected on the mirror, a "cold", "distant Moon", a "plutonic" Moon. When we look at theMoon at the time of its apogee, we are actually looking directly at the invisible empty focus of theinstantaneous ("true") lunar orbit, a hollowness; there is nothing there, and all we see is the face of the Moonon the far side. This material nothingness is actually an astral and organic fullness, not the fullness of thepresent, but the dark fullness of the long-past or far-away pleroma of the womb.
B.
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BlancaEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #63 - on: 29.08.2007 at 13:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 29.08.2007 at 11:25 [UT+1]:
Please note that if we dispense with the idea of an ellipse --as in the natural (=interpolated) alternative for calculating the Black Moon,
then the concept of an "empty focus" tends to become meaningless astronomically, it "looses focus", and an important part of thesymbolism traditionally assigned to the Black Moon looses its "aliveness" and begins to fade. Likewise, if we establish the predominace ofthe symbolism of the empty focus (of the instantaneous or "osculating" ellipse --the true Black Moon) then the astrological meaning of theinterpolated alternatives --based on the times of natural occurrence of apogee and perigee-- begins to loose focus and fade away.

one technical note here:
the distance of the natural or interpolated perigee from the opposition point of the natural apogee is nevermore than 25 degrees, and this means that they are still very much the result of elliptic motion... although theellipse they describe is a little garbled, the deviation from a perfect ellipse is only 7%. So the idea of an ellipse
is thrown away only partially, for the purposes of calculation, but the resulting positions represent 93% of aperfect ellipse.
B.

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Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #64 - on: 29.08.2007 at 16:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 28.08.2007 at 23:54 [UT+1]:
Hi again Gene,I study the mean position of BML which is on 12+ Sag. in your chart, closely aspecting both natal Mars and Pluto. As far as I can count it
doesn't make any adverse natal aspects. This could well mean that you associate your BML energy with a Mars-Pluto energy. Where is the

Posts: 3329
Gender:touch of Sagittarius you must feel in such energy?
Direct Tr. Jupiter conjoined MEAN BML end January and retrograded over it again end June-July. Does this coincide with anything of a
Jupiter nature? Third pass is during September. With Jupiter ruler of Sagittarius, I cannot conceive that you are not inwardly feelinganything going on.
Your 3rd house sec. progr. Sun is on 5 Scorpio, whilst transiting MEAN BML is now within orb of the exact conjunction next week. Maybe
that will clinch any 'not knowing' for you
Friesiangal

Hello Friesiangal and all
I cannot think of anything in the period you mention that could be connected to mean BML. It would be
difficult to separate T Jupiter sextile N Mars and trine N Pluto from any theoretical BML contact. I will make amental note and keep an eye open.
Frankly I tend to agree with Blanca. I resist the idea of "mean" as it is sort of an average and I do not likeaverages. I think if there is power it would be in the true apogee or the empty focus.

As for how I am "feeling", I feel strong and well physically and mentally.
Obviously things come and go that affect my state of mind but my usual mental state is strong and stable.
There is always another shoe dropping around the corner for all of us....but now I’m fine.
Gene Ray
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Jupiter's Daughter

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #65 - on: 29.08.2007 at 17:20 [UT+1] »Okay if I understand what folks are saying here, (and me not liking complexities, might not!)I should throw Interpolated apogee into the toilet as likely meaningless but I am stillw ondering what the Lillith offered in the click on chart options (right below Vertex and POF) is as
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it came out 1-1/2* away from interpolated apogee .... I thought I understood from alois that lillith here wasthe apogee my oscillating apolgee is les sthan 1 degree form my IC, so I'll never be able to separate transit effects
I am curioius as "click-on" Lillith is the one that has resulted in interesting transit history
looking at what folks are saying about the "void" is is possible that we can consider the lunar apogee as a
deep/cosmic source of personal creativity? and that it only acts up if denied? that maybe lunar apogee is thatplace you go to to connect with your source motivation? perhaps connecting wth 12th house spirituality?

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Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #66 - on: 29.08.2007 at 17:44 [UT+1] »Quote from Jupiter's Daughter on 29.08.2007 at 17:20 [UT+1]:
Okay if I understand what folks are saying here, (and me not liking complexities, might not!)I should throw Interpolated apogee into the toilet as likely meaningless but I am stillw ondering what the Lillith offered in the click on chart options (right below Vertex and POF) is as it came out 1-1/2* away

Posts: 3329
Gender:from interpolated apogee .... I thought I understood from alois that lillith here was the apogee my oscillating apolgee is les sthan 1 degree form my IC, so I'll never be able to separate transit effects
I am curioius as "click-on" Lillith is the one that has resulted in interesting transit history
looking at what folks are saying about the "void" is is possible that we can consider the lunar apogee as a deep/cosmic source of personal
creativity? and that it only acts up if denied? that maybe lunar apogee is that place you go to to connect with your source motivation?
perhaps connecting wth 12th house spirituality?

Hello Jupiters Daughter
We all have been speculating on the meaning of BML (true or otherwise) (ha).
It has been said here (regarding BML) that the European Astrolgers have a clear menaing of BML.
Well European Astrologers?Gene Ray
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vertexEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #67 - on: 29.08.2007 at 17:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 29.08.2007 at 10:32 [UT+1]:
The true or "osculating" Black Moon is literally a womb, a cave, a hollowness, and as long as Lilith is constrained to it she will be chainedand enraged, because Lilith as an archetype extends to other planetary realms far beyond the lunar orbit, and being encaged in the Black
Moon makes her suffer without end. The Black Moon extends beyond the Lilith symbolism and encompasses a more primal andtranscendental archetype, that of the unreachable and infinitely fertile "primal womb", the uroborus, the "Mother Earth" or "Great Mother",
the great all-ecompassing womb from which we all came and to which we cannot return without being swallowed and destroyed by it -except through a psychologically dangerous and painfull alchemical process of "creative regression".
B.

Blanca, I have my true BML retrograde in Pisces. Does this configuration mean there is more repression (byvirtue of the retrograde), not enough assertive action (Piscean-taking the path of least resistance)?
Quote from Jupiter's Daughter on 29.08.2007 at 17:20 [UT+1]:
Okay if I understand what folks are saying here, (and me not liking complexities, might not!)I should throw Interpolated apogee into the toilet as likely meaningless but I am stillw ondering what the Lillith offered in the click on chart options (right below Vertex and POF) is as it came out 1-1/2* awayfrom interpolated apogee .... I thought I understood from alois that lillith here was the apogee my oscillating apolgee is les sthan 1 degree form my IC, so I'll never be able to separate transit effects
I am curioius as "click-on" Lillith is the one that has resulted in interesting transit history
looking at what folks are saying about the "void" is is possible that we can consider the lunar apogee as a deep/cosmic source of personal
creativity? and that it only acts up if denied? that maybe lunar apogee is that place you go to to connect with your source motivation?
perhaps connecting wth 12th house spirituality?

JD, "click-on" is the MEAN BML (MEAN lunar apogee). (h13) the osc apogee is the TRUE BML (TRUE lunar
apogee). Mine differ by about 2 degrees and have the same planatary aspects, however the TRUE (h13) has
tighter orbs. Both are sextile Mars, trine Saturn. My TRUE BML is retrograde, unlike my MEAN BML. h13 (TRUE
lunar apogee) seems more accurate to me...
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Jupiter's

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Daughter« Reply #68 - on: 29.08.2007 at 21:57 [UT+1] »Memberit just seem awfully weird that two options that should give you the same position give you something
different.
differnt formuae for computing the mean????

Posts: 1767

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Don M

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #69 - on: 30.08.2007 at 00:46 [UT+1] »quote from Blanca...
"The symbolical richness of the empty focus(the "kenofocus"or "other" focus) is heavily limited or impaired
when we identify it exclusively with the "Lilith" character or archetype. This identification in my opinion is an
Posts: 282
Gender:excess, and "abuse" of Lilith. The identification with Lilith in my opinion is very unfortunate, because there is a
lot more to the Black Moon than Lilith, and there is a lot more to Lilith that the black Moon --as Gene Ray
correctly feels."
Blanca - this distinction between the Black Moon and Lilith is useful. the Black Moon archetype is something we
all experience irrespective of gender. for a male with a strong lunar Black Moon influence - Lilith as anarchetypal character to facilitate integration is not accurately descriptive of the process.
the territory is different for males - it is not our power that has been repressed. cultural conditioning instead"castrates" males from their souls - their lunar facets, aspects, and dimensions - a males journey to reclaim
soul that has been hidden by the Black Moon is perhaps something to be explored and articulated withsymbolism different from that of Lilith.

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Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #70 - on: 30.08.2007 at 01:23 [UT+1] »I have BML almost exact conjunct my Asc and it baffles me as to the significance.
I have only seen it in a few charts of notables so it's effect is a mystery to me.
One person here with the same placements equated it to being one at a party at which they did not feel they fit
in.
Posts: 1639
Gender:I think one of the qualities might be having receptive tendencies to what others feel about them if found in awater sign close to the ascendant. It also gives a mysterious nature which those around them think they canread the individuals thoughts,nature and intentions which for the most part they cannot unless they arearound the person for a long time or the person reveals themselves to them.
Atleast that is my thoughts on BML conjunct Asc..
Elanor Roosevelt is one of the only people that I know of with the placement in Sag.
If there are any others with BML conjunct Asc I would be interested in knowing their charts wether they be
famous or not.

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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #71 - on: 30.08.2007 at 02:35 [UT+1] »I have a theory that BML features most strongly in charts where balance is sought with regards to a planet infall or in detriment. We can tell from the story of Lilith, Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden that it is not life
itself which Lilith pits herself against, but life wrongly conceived.
I personally have my Moon conjunct BML in Aries, a sign which obviously has a very strong relationship with
Mars and Pluto, opposite Pluto in sidereal Virgo. Its fair to assume that Pluto works very badly in Virgo while
Aries relates very strongly to Pluto, akin to exaltaion. Its thus fair to assume that my Moon is reflecting uponan empty Plutonic focus and a generation which in my opinion has a hard time establishing a relationship with
its own fate.
Obviously the Moon signifies the mother and my own mother had Pisces rising with Neptune in detriment in
Virgo opposite on the descendant. Just from having talked to her I can tell my mother has been "at war" withher generations misguided conception of Neptune her entire life. Again we're seeing an anger from Lilith atother planetary relationships wrongly envisioned.
Celebrity examples seem to reinforce this theory; Jane Fonda has the Sun in Sagittarius conjunct BML withruler Jupiter on the Ascendant, fallen in sidereal Capricorn. She has fought against patriarchical America her
entire life, again we're seeing Lilith's relationship with misguided planetary relationships. The singer Enya also
has BML conjunct her ascendant, conjunct Uranus in detriment in Leo. She broke away from her family's Celtic
music group to go her own way, perhaps sensing she had to strike a balance between her own Uranian needs for
freedom wrongly envisaged by leo?
Jesse Jackson is another example: exalted Moon conjunct Lilith, conjunct Saturn AND Uranus fallen in Taurus,
the exalted Moon obviously taking a Lilithian stand against a fallen Uranus and a fraught realtionship with
Saturn nearby.
Something to think about.
Alan
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Friesiangal
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #72 - on: 30.08.2007 at 09:52 [UT+1] »[quote author=Jupiter's Daughter]
Quote:
it just seem awfully weird that two options that should give you the same position give you something different.
differnt formuae for computing the mean????

Posts: 6820
Gender:I can empathise with your thoughts. I feel the same about tropical and sidereal astrology, house cusp systems.
geo-and-heliocentric calculations, astro*cartography, etc.
As with everything in astrology, I think it finally boils down to using the techniques which impart something to
you that, through the perspective taken of events, 'ring true'. At a crossroads you finally make a decision andchoose a particular path. For Alan, for example, it was sidereal above tropical, for astrologer Conny Reynolds it
was TRUE BML rather than MEAN, for me the opposite of both.
Conny and I have occasionally exchanged thoughts on the forum and speculated upon the difference between
TRUE and MEAN in life's unfoldment. I tend to think of MEAN BML in a similar way to your words,
Quote:
looking at what folks are saying about the "void" is is possible that we can consider the lunar apogee as a deep/cosmic source of personal
creativity? and that it only acts up if denied? that maybe lunar apogee is that place you go to to connect with your source motivation?

which might even be expressing your own placement.
MEAN BML seems to refer to the inner experience that often feels as unacceptance, non-existence,
disconnectedness, non-integration, that is seeking expression; TRUE BML of the manner of giving that innerexperience outer expression.
I would argue that whichever calculated point is used for the Black Moon called Lilith (I believe I was the first
ever, in 1999, to affectionately address it as BML), it's meaning can only find outer expression throughaspects to a planet, which makes manifestation of its 'sense' possible. I can provide umpteen examples fromthe 'guessing where I would expect to find BML ' game I play with popular people's chart. 'Astrotheme' is amarvellous investigative www pot with over 30,000 charts, ALL with MEAN BML included. But it is a French site
, from which country the original investigation into the Black Moon's effects originated.
If it's still available, you might find:
http://www.noeltyl.com/techniques/040331.html
of interest, as is Juan Revilla's own website,www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/Black Moon/osculting.txt/index.html
Alan: Are you using and interpretting the Black Moon as per its position in a sidereal chart?
Blanca: Quote:
The identification with Lilith in my opinion is very unfortunate, because there is a lot more to the Black Moon than Lilith, and there is a lot
more to Lilith that the black Moon

Like Don, I couldn't agree with you more.
Gene: Quote:I resist the idea of "mean" as it is sort of an average and I do not like averages.

Such a pity. You were up there sharing its position with some true greats.
Friesiangal.
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Jupiter's Daughter

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #73 - on: 30.08.2007 at 11:10 [UT+1] »Friesengal -Posts: 1767

thanks for your lengthy post comments - however what i ment was taht the click-on lillith is the mean
formulae, and h13 is also mean BML and in my chart they are 1*30'+ apart - I thought these were supposed tobe the exact same formula - not the same as choosing a house system, etc, but wondering why the two options
are giving me different points? please try this in yoru own chart - add click-on lillith and then h13 (true) andh22 (mean) and if your experience is like mine, you will get 3 different points. you should only get 2.
Sorry to harp on this niggling bit,but hey, do we have a glitch in the program here or what?

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Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #74 - on: 30.08.2007 at 15:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 30.08.2007 at 00:46 [UT+1]:
quote from Blanca...
"The symbolical richness of the empty focus(the "kenofocus"or "other" focus) is heavily limited or impaired when we identify it exclusively
with the "Lilith" character or archetype. This identification in my opinion is an excess, and "abuse" of Lilith. The identification with Lilith in
my opinion is very unfortunate, because there is a lot more to the Black Moon than Lilith, and there is a lot more to Lilith that the black
Moon --as Gene Ray correctly feels."
Blanca - this distinction between the Black Moon and Lilith is useful. the Black Moon archetype is something we all experience irrespectiveof gender. for a male with a strong lunar Black Moon influence - Lilith as an archetypal character to facilitate integration is not accurately
descriptive of the process.
the territory is different for males - it is not our power that has been repressed. cultural conditioning instead "castrates"

males from their souls - their lunar facets, aspects, and dimensions - a males journey to reclaim
soul that has been hidden by the Black Moon is perhaps something to be explored and articulatedwith symbolism different from that of Lilith.

Is that why "Priapus" (pry A puss) was in*vented with an enormous phallic pudendum attached to Lunar
Peri*Gee?
To frustrate Lilith?
Not a personal remark to anyone btw ~ but it strikes me that the gross application of an already supersized
male appendage to the Moon's pure femininity in the symbolic pantheon only adds further insult tolongstanding injury in an as*true*logical scheme which created a Cosmos woefully bereft of feminine
symbolism from the bee*gyning.
Yes. We have much to sort out in this symbolic mishmash which always boils down to the sex*ewe*all powerplay stuff.
And if the actual nodal points or planetary bodies/stars/asteroids/empty holes themselves DO REALLY havemagnetic/electrical/energies which affect us and our thoughts and actions through resonance or non-resonance,then we need to get more honest in our appraisal of which characteristics we have allotted to them.
IMNSHO
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vertexEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #75 - on: 30.08.2007 at 16:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Jupiter's Daughter on 30.08.2007 at 11:10 [UT+1]:
Friesengal thanks for your lengthy post comments - however what i ment was taht the click-on lillith is the mean formulae, and h13 is also mean
BML and in my chart they are 1*30'+ apart - I thought these were supposed to be the exact same formula - not the same as choosing ahouse system, etc, but wondering why the two options are giving me different points? please try this in yoru own chart - add click-on lillith
and then h13 (true) and h22 (mean) and if your experience is like mine, you will get 3 different points. you should only get 2.
Sorry to harp on this niggling bit,but hey, do we have a glitch in the program here or what?

JD, h13 is the TRUE BML (TRUE lunar apogee). Lilith of the pull down menu is the MEAN BML (MEAN lunar
apogee)As per Knoxy, h22 is the interpolated natural lunar perigee. h21 is the interpolated natural lunar
apogee (or natural lilith).
my h13 is rx pisces sextile Mars (0); trine Saturn (3); trine NN (7); sesquad Vertex (0);Quintile Ceres (0);opposite asteroid lilith (0); Quintile Psyche (0); Septile MC; Novile P.Fort; square AC (2); Trine, Novile Juno (0);conjunct an asteroid I use Amor rx(0); (I have no idea what any of this means)
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sharasa
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #76 - on: 30.08.2007 at 16:39 [UT+1] »I'm not sure why there is a slight difference between the click on Lilith and h21- probably related to calculation
but you could ask the forum staff. As far as true (h13) versus mean - there can be up to 30 degrees differenceLilith point is erratic and does not move in a uniform fashion or speed.
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Gene Ray

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #77 - on: 30.08.2007 at 17:32 [UT+1] »Hello Friesiangal and all
You wrote:
Posts: 3329
Gender:

Gene: Quote:I resist the idea of "mean" as it is sort of an average and I do not like averages.
Such a pity. You were up there sharing its position with some true greats.
Friesiangal.
One of the first characteristics an Astrologer should develop is a sense of not choosing a Astrological system
based on what makes him look best. I have Regulus near my Ascendant (birth) and I have Spica in the middle
of a Venus/Jupiter conjunction and yet I do not give power to the stars. If I did these would seem to make mesomething sort of special. In numerology I am a 33 with various paths also in master numbers 11 & 22.
If I put all this together I might begin to think of myself as a prophet; but I do not. If I were to try to walk onwater I would sink just like anyone else.
My Astrological system is based (as much as possible) on what I have observed to be true or at least most likely
true. I believe we should resist whimsical placing of Astrological ideas in our systems that work well already. I
resist others "visions" of what is true, and I especially resist adding new ideas based on their supposed value tomyself.
I lead a rather simple, happy & satisfied life at this point. I am a confident man & I do not need delusions ofgrandeur or any other kind of myth to make me feel better. I am not a religious man; but if I were an apostle I
would be like Thomas. I would need to put my hand in Jesus’ side to believe something that appeared not tomake sense. (ha)I am interested in BML but the jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
Gene Ray (not my full name for numerology buffs)

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Friesiangal
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #78 - on: 30.08.2007 at 18:56 [UT+1] »[quote author=Gene Ray link=1187722128/60#77 date=1188491556]Hello Friesiangal and all
Quote:My Astrological system is based (as much as possible) on what I have observed to be true or at least most likely true.

Posts: 6820
Gender:That has definitely been my path as well.
Quote:
I believe we should resist whimsical placing of Astrological ideas in our systems that work well already.

For me, the use of BML within astrological interpretation was not whimisical but based upon a very deep 'innerspiritual experience' I underwent that coincided with a total solar eclipse on my 12th house Jupiter in the same
week that MEAN BML crossed my I.C. in Sagittarius. Such a profound experience could not be explained away
by other astrological ideas, unless you would consider tr. Pluto opposing natal Uranus producing it. However,my Uranus is close square my natal 12th house BML. That week an astrologer had sent me an article about the
3 Liliths, of which person-archetye-astrological point I had never heard before. Yet it had the effect of bringing
up someone within me I had neglected and denied admittance/existence for so long.
Quote:I am not a religious man; but if I were an apostle I would be like Thomas. I would need to put my hand in Jesus’ side to believe
something that appeared not to make sense. (ha)Change the gender and those words could have come from my own lips. It was the effect of BML in my life thatmade everything non-sensical 'make sense'.
Quote:
I resist others "visions" of what is true, and I especially resist adding new ideas based on their supposed value to myself.

Your original post did not request any explanation of a personal BML's astrological significance, whichever one
is used. I would therefore not dream of offering any. What I do believe is that a hard-aspected BML will be felt
more than a well-aspected BML, which, imho will have found integration within the character. This is the very
problem with which imho the hard aspected BML is faced. In that respect you are a fortunate man.

J.D.
Quote:
Friesengal thanks for your lengthy post comments

Touché.
Friesiangal.

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Don M

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #79 - on: 30.08.2007 at 20:26 [UT+1] »yes Myrios - the association of the perigee with Priapus is something new to me that i am also questioning.....
i've studied BML with an advanced astrologer and her term for the BML opposition point was the " White Moon
Lilith".
Posts: 282
Gender:there is however one aspect of Priapus that does seem to be in line with my personal BML / lunar integrationand experiences. with scorpio rising, an exact moon pluto square, and BML in aries on the NN - the "sexual
power play stuff" you mention is some familiar territory. for me, there has seemed to be an inverse relationshipbetween sexuality and the integration of the feminine. the more immature and unconscious i was around thefeminine - the more i was subject to the sexual power play dynamic in relationships - the more conscious andintegrated i have become around lunar issues - the more relating and sexuality have shifted to something otherthan the power play stuff.
Gene - speaking of Thomas - the # 70 saying of the gospel according to Thomas has always seemed to me to
be about the Black Moon.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what iswithin you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."i am biased because of a 12 th house configuration in opposition to the Black Moon, but like Blanca, i suspect
the Black Moon is a conduit for quite a bit more that meets the eye...... "a pleroma of the womb" as she says.
an enjoyable discussion !

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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #80 - on: 30.08.2007 at 20:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 30.08.2007 at 17:32 [UT+1]:
Hello Friesiangal and all
You wrote:
Gene: Quote:I resist the idea of "mean" as it is sort of an average and I do not like averages.
Such a pity. You were up there sharing its position with some true greats.
Friesiangal.

One of the first characteristics an Astrologer should develop is a sense of not choosing a
Astrological system based on what makes him look best. I have Regulus near my Ascendant (birth) and I have
Spica in the middle of a Venus/Jupiter conjunction and yet I do not give power to the stars. If I did these would seem to make mesomething sort of special. In numerology I am a 33 with various paths also in master numbers 11 & 22.
If I put all this together I might begin to think of myself as a prophet; but I do not. If I were to try to walk on water I would sink just likeanyone else.
My Astrological system is based (as much as possible) on what I have observed to be true or at least most likely true. I believe we should
resist whimsical placing of Astrological ideas in our systems that work well already. I resist others "visions" of what is true, and I
especially resist adding new ideas based on their supposed value to myself.
I lead a rather simple, happy & satisfied life at this point. I am a confident man & I do not need delusions of grandeur or any other kind ofmyth to make me feel better. I am not a religious man; but if I were an apostle I would be like Thomas. I would need to put my hand in
Jesus’ side to believe something that appeared not to make sense. (ha)I am interested in BML but the jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
Gene Ray (not my full name for numerology buffs)

On that note let's bear in mind ~ the Pythagorean 7/12 zodiak system was "an elegant exercise in planetarysymmetry" which described "the way things should be" ie. "the primacy of numbers and harmonics" ~ The
Greeks appointed Jupiter/Zeus as the Supreme God in the First Sign, home of the God of Gods, governed by
the ancient First Royal Star, now become Regulus (The Roman Regulator).
And while we are there, let's also remember that Regulus (formerly ancient Babylonian Sharru/The King
~India's Magha/TheMighty~ Persia's Miyan/The Center) lay very near to the Sun at Summer Solstice (June 23)
at that time of thought.
For the Greeks (Pythagoras) the placement of The FIRST Royal Star (Roman Regulus), in LEO (FIRST or King of
the jungle) equated with the FIRST sign of their year ~ its Ruler was the original protector of Leo,
JUPITER/Zeus~ FIRST supreme god appointed to the FIRST Sign and home of the ancient star and god ofgods, Regulus.
This certainly re*presents a lot of ancient attention to the FIRSTness of things ~ built right in to the starry
D*sign.
Now of course, Jupiter/Jehova/Sun/Son/Source of Life is still King*Lie in the FIXED sign of Leo for us moderns.
Looks as if the original D*signers of A*Straw*Logos did not share your own altruistic approach Gene.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #81 - on: 30.08.2007 at 20:46 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 30.08.2007 at 20:26 [UT+1]:
yes Myrios - the association of the perigee with Priapus is something new to me that i am also questioning..... i've studied BML with anadvanced astrologer and her term for the BML opposition point was the " White Moon Lilith".
there is however one aspect of Priapus that does seem to be in line with my personal BML / lunar integration and experiences. with scorpio
rising, an exact moon pluto square, and BML in aries on the NN - the "sexual power play stuff" you mention is some familiar territory. forme, there has seemed to be an inverse relationship between sexuality and the integration of the feminine. the more immature andunconscious i was around the feminine - the more i was subject to the sexual power play dynamic in relationships - the more conscious
and integrated i have become around lunar issues - the more relating and sexuality have shifted to something other than the power play
stuff.
Gene - speaking of Thomas - the # 70 saying of the gospel according to Thomas has always seemed to

me to be about the Black Moon.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth
what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."i am biased because of a 12 th house configuration in opposition to the Black Moon, but like Blanca, i suspect the Black Moon is a conduit
for quite a bit more that meets the eye...... "a pleroma of the womb" as she says.
an enjoyable discussion !

(We are all biased whether we are conscious of it or not).
I relate to doubting Thomas, and also to the scriptural quote you provide.
Thanks.
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vertexEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #82 - on: 30.08.2007 at 21:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 30.08.2007 at 17:32 [UT+1]:
One of the first characteristics an Astrologer should develop is a sense of not choosing a Astrological system based on what makes him
look best. I have Regulus near my Ascendant (birth) and I have Spica in the middle of a Venus/Jupiter conjunction and yet I do not give
power to the stars. If I did these would seem to make me something sort of special.

Isn't Regulus at the last degree of Leo?
times?

Gene Ray's ASC is at Leo 8+. Where has Spica been in modern

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Gene Ray

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #83 - on: 30.08.2007 at 21:25 [UT+1] »Quote from vertex on 30.08.2007 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Isn't Regulus at the last degree of Leo?

Gene Ray's ASC is at Leo 8+. Where has Spica been in modern times?

http://forum.astro.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/Prog_Moon_conjunct_BLM.gif

Posts: 3329
Gender:Hello Vertex
The 8d 20 m Leo rising is my relocation chart. My actual rising degree was 26d 24 Leo & at my birth Regulus
was at about 29 d 5 m Leo (within the usual 3 degrees allowed). Spica is somewhere around 23 or 24 degrees
Libra now.
Of course we are talking about signs not constellations. As you may have read I think that Regulus reallymarks the 0d of the 30 degree space in the sky called Leo and its location by sign is very near 0 deg Virgo. So
if Regulus marks true 0 degree Leo then 30 deg Leo will be on the Descendant in 2012 as the spaces (named
after constellations) take their backward movement of the chart that represents the ages. Regulus plays animportant role in designating age changes, like a great clock in the sky.
Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Gene Ray
Member« Reply #84 - on: 30.08.2007 at 21:32 [UT+1] »Hello Vertex
Here is my true birth chart.

Posts: 3329
Gender:Back to top

Gene Ray

gene.gif (attachment deleted)
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #85 - on: 30.08.2007 at 21:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 30.08.2007 at 00:46 [UT+1]:
this distinction between the Black Moon and Lilith is useful. the Black Moon archetype is something we all experience irrespective ofgender. for a male with a strong lunar Black Moon influence - Lilith as an archetypal character to facilitate integration is not accurately
descriptive of the process.
the territory is different for males - it is not our power that has been repressed. cultural conditioning instead "castrates" males from theirsouls - their lunar facets, aspects, and dimensions - a males journey to reclaim soul that has been hidden by the Black Moon is perhaps
something to be explored and articulated with symbolism different from that of Lilith.

Yes. "Castration" is in my opinion very much a theme of the Black Moon. But I think it goes both ways...
reciprocal and sidewise. Woman castrates and "devours" man (e.g. Alan Parker's "The Wall"), man or patriarchal
society castrates and dominates woman as a deffense; woman reacts and castrates her own womanhood toclaim her lost masculinity from man, man reacts and castrates his own masculinity to claim the womanhood -the unapproachable, unreachable, VIRGINAL "mystery" and power of the womb that he fears and to which hecompulsively wants to surrender (Siegfried in front of slumbering Brunhilde) that is denied to him, and thecircle of regressive reactions and never-ending fight for our solar indivividuality and waking consciousness goeson and on...
Have you read the article on Tchaikovsky's Black Moon?
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/tchaikovsky.html
I think the Black Moon is regressive rather than repressive, and represents (as every other "dark side" of humanexperience represented in an astrological chart) how we respond or react to it. The "manly" or masculine
perpective (i.e., the never-ending flow between solar action and lunar reaction applicable to both men andwomen) can mean being possessed by its twilight, dreamy, alluring, and bluish glow, trapped like a moth to ourinstinctive desires and most primitive fantasies, spiritual intuitions, and childhood fears sedimented in ou
unconscious, or "slaying the devouring dragon" by entering its groins and killing it, refusing to follow its
somber light and turning our faces to the light of the Sun, which is its polar opposite.
("Priapus" is just another face of it, not its symbolical opposite in any way).
B.
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Gene Ray
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #86 - on: 30.08.2007 at 21:35 [UT+1] »Hello all
In looking at my chart my Progressed Sun is conjunct Transitin Mean Moon Lilith and my Progressed Moon is
conjunct the Natal True Moon Lilith. Even my chart will not tell me which is true (ha)Posts: 3329
Gender:

Gene Ray

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sharasa

Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #87 - on: 30.08.2007 at 21:57 [UT+1] »The quote from the Gospel of Thomas always reminds me of this from the Charge of the Goddess
And you who seek to know Me, know that your seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the
Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.
http://www.ladybridget.com/mp/chargegoddess.html
I am not Wiccan but it is a quote I like.
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Don M
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #88 - on: 30.08.2007 at 22:49 [UT+1] »Blanca - thanks for the link, here is a recent dream as transiting BML moved past my 12 th house libra SN
mercury neptune conjunction and opposed natal BML an inverted volcano with dark, thick mud and lava flowing down into the point at the vortex. at the very

Posts: 282
Gender:bottom of the vortex is a white swan with its wings flapping - occasionally it is splattered with the mud or lava but it thrives there at the bottom of the vortex in a point of crisis. the dark devouring feminine and the swan
coexist in a balanced symbiosis - feeding each other .....

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Jupiter's Daughter

Member« Reply #89 - on: 31.08.2007 at 02:14 [UT+1] »Vertex Okay, sweetie - what's the diff between NATURAL Lillith and TRUE Lillith??? in simple terms, please remember I
am brain damaged!!!!!
Posts: 1767

Mean seems a bit silly to me, but no question there's something going on near that point - and Natural LIlltih isvery close.

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

MyriosEx Member« Reply #90 - on: 05.09.2007 at 18:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 30.08.2007 at 22:49 [UT+1]:
Blanca - thanks for the link, here is a recent dream as transiting BML moved past my 12 th house libra SN mercury neptune conjunction
and opposed natal BML an inverted volcano with dark, thick mud and lava flowing down into the point at the vortex. at the very bottom of the vortex is a whiteswan with its wings flapping - occasionally it is splattered with the mud or lava - but it thrives there at the bottom of the vortex in a pointof crisis. the dark devouring feminine and the swan coexist in a balanced symbiosis - feeding each other .....

In my own personal chart experience Lilith is not "the dark devouring feminine" ...
Lilith is rather the swan splattered with mud (adam) and (S)lava ~ struggling to escape her prison at thebottom of the vortex ~ where long ago she was tossed in derision by the dark devouring masculine powerof Church and State.
BTW The swan is a bird which mates for life ~ the swan therefore may be said to have married male andfemale into one whole organism ~ perhaps we can see Lilith then in a new light ~ She is the WHOLE being,
not merely our filmy screen version plaything ~ EVE.

Lilith/BML is a direct experience for me ~ I knew her well before I knew she existed in my chart.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

MyriosEx Member« Reply #91 - on: 05.09.2007 at 18:22 [UT+1] »In thinking about it Gene, perhaps indeed, as mentioned earlier in the thread ~ THIS is your BML experience ~the thread itself.
Also, I think you cannot dismiss the theme of your own daughter's resistance to authority. For in the bottom
anal*ysis Lilith is fighting the autocracy/author*eye*tie of the great ancients' ~ Lilith herself is "thecastrated one".
IMO
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #92 - on: 05.09.2007 at 23:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 05.09.2007 at 18:13 [UT+1]:
Lilith is rather the swan splattered with mud (adam) and (S)lava ~ struggling to escape her prison at the bottom of the vortex ~ wherelong ago she was tossed in derision by the dark devouring masculine power of Church and State.
BTW The swan is a bird which mates for life ~ the swan therefore may be said to have married male and female into one wholeorganism ~ perhaps we can see Lilith then in a new light ~ She is the WHOLE being, not merely our filmy screen version plaything ~EVE.
Lilith/BML is a direct experience for me ~ I knew her well before I knew she existed in my chart. Myrios

You are talking about "Lilith", but we are talking about "the Black Moon" as a symbol of the Jungian "Great
Mother". So essentially, in my opinion, by identifying Lilith with the Black Moon, you are referring to somethingthat goes beyond the purely Lunar - "dark Mother" - Black Moon territory.
B.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #93 - on: 06.09.2007 at 00:00 [UT+1] »Sorry, Blanca, as far as I see it you are way out on your own limb. We are all talking BML/Lunar Apogee here.
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Don M

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #94 - on: 06.09.2007 at 00:37 [UT+1] »Myrios - i do not associate the "dark devouring feminine" of my dream with Lilith - but rather with the Black
Moon. it is more about that "devouring" point of emotional over reaction within my individual consciousness
than it is about Lilith.

Posts: 282
Gender:Blanca - i have reflected some on your comments about the Black Moon being more related to
castration/regression as opposed to repression. i have an exact moon/pluto square in addition to the Black
Moon on the NN - so repression, castration, and regression are all part of the mix. more and more, i amrecognizing the regressive aspects of having the Black Moon conjunct a node - it has taken me back to the very
darkest and deepest wounds of early life and beyond - even back into past lives. it seems to be pushing towards
an innocence - a healing of all wounds. it is not structured in any way - just the direction in which life unfolds.
any further observations or comments about the Black Moon and regression would be welcome......

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BlancaEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #95 - on: 06.09.2007 at 01:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 06.09.2007 at 00:00 [UT+1]:
Sorry, Blanca, as far as I see it you are way out on your own limb. We are all talking BML/Lunar Apogee here. - Myrios

You have the right to believe that the symbolism of "Lilith" and that of the Black Moon/lunar apogee are thesame. I think that's a mistake. My exchange with Don was based on the assumption that they are different
things, if you care to read the original posts.
B.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #96 - on: 06.09.2007 at 02:47 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 06.09.2007 at 00:37 [UT+1]:... the Black Moon. it is more about that "devouring" point of emotional over reaction within my individual consciousness than it is about
Lilith.
Blanca - i have reflected some on your comments about the Black Moon being more related to castration/regression as opposed torepression.

The idea is that it is purely lunar and "dark", it is an empty point, hollow and ghostly, related to the past and to
the womb. Its pull is that of regression and loss of individuality, going back to the bliss of the womb, or theastral plane, out-of-the-body, etc.. In our normal waking life we experience this through fantasy, primitive or
instinctive intuition, and sexuality.
We were also talking about the possible important differences in the way we experience this point between men
and women. The Black Moon /Empty Focus is the closest there is in Astrology to ourselves, or the Earth, so its
primal symbolism is more directly related to the experience of sexuality and of our body, how do we feel about
having a pennis or not having one, being pregnant and giving birth or never being able able to do that because
our bodies are different.
Quote:i have an exact moon/pluto square in addition to the Black Moon on the NN - so repression, castration, and regression are all part of themix. more and more, i am recognizing the regressive aspects of having the Black Moon conjunct a node - it has taken me back to the very
darkest and deepest wounds of early life and beyond - even back into past lives. it seems to be pushing towards an innocence - a healingof all wounds. it is not structured in any way - just the direction in which life unfolds.
any further observations or comments about the Black Moon and regression would be welcome......

That's where the challenge of interpretation of the Black Moon is: differentiating it from Moon/Pluto. Plutotends to obliterate the Moon because it pushes too hard --like a very strong, domineering, invasive or overprotective mother. The mother image is hipertrophied at the expense of the father image, and the child has toprotect himself against her --he becomes a survivor by withdrawing from "living", by denying to himself theunconditional sensuality and proximity of others --especially women, which become a menace to his
masculinity. The result is that the "inner child" is denied or abandoned, suffering extremes of inner hunger that
dominate the emotional life of the adult, who alternates between periods of extreme denial and extreme
exposure of the inner child, incapable of enjoying the simple and lighter pleasures of life without feelingovershadowed or fulminated by them. Eventually all intimate relationships become a question of life and death,and the result is the ever-recurrent desolation, because "mother" when a child was not "life", but an excessive
protection against it: the excess of love and the radical feeling of abandonment coexisted in childhood, so that"woman" and "mother" and "child" meant Death instead of Life.
This is a pretty extreme picture, and it is over-dramatized. But perhaps it helps us see that the Black Moon,
while dark and womb-like, does not have this excess of death that Pluto has. For example: I think the natal
Black Moon can give you truly sexual satisfaction of the "soul-mate" type. The Black Moon works at the level ofthe body, it is "pure milk": it can make you go back to Paradise for a while in order to enjoy its fruits... i.e., its"regressiveness" need not necessarily be negative or destructive. The problem is that if we surrender to it we
become "drunkards"; without a strong Sun (its polar opposite), the Black Moon / Empty Focus can make a man
a victim of his own fantasy. What happens when we surrender to fantasy or to instinct? what happens to an
adult man that surrenders to the womb?... Life becomes drug to him, he refuses to take hold of his life andlives in his imagination --which can be very creative and fertile-- but becomes incapable of taking responsibility
for his own individual life.
Pluto is very different because Pluto is a brutal suppressor where the Black Moon is a cornucopia, Pluto
torments you by denying you the most simple satisfactions of the Moon (a "real" relationship, a "real"family"...), while the Black Moon can give you all today and evaporate all of it tomorrow. Most importantly,
Pluto forces you to deal with your hunger, to go into your past, to your childhood relationships and traumas, it
forces you to search for that child that you as an adult have abandoned or rejected, and become that child's"manly" father that he never had, providing him with the warmth that only a very intensified pain and innerwork can make possible. The Black Moon on the other hand will produce anguish rather than pain, the anguishof knowing that you are living a dream but do not want to wake up. Pluto never, ever will let you stop or fallasleep, it will push you relentelessly toward the regeneration of your relationship with your inner child, and withthe women and children in your real life. Pluto will never let you surrender, while the Black Moon pulls you
toward surrendering completely to her, to the idealized paradise lost.
B.
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #97 - on: 06.09.2007 at 10:19 [UT+1] »[quote author=Don M ]Quote:
Blanca - i have reflected some on your comments about the Black Moon being more related to castration/regression as opposed to

Posts: 6820
Gender:repression. i have an exact moon/pluto square in addition to the Black Moon on the NN - so repression, castration, and regression are allpart of the mix. more and more, i am recognizing the regressive aspects of having the Black Moon conjunct a node - it has taken me backto the very darkest and deepest wounds of early life and beyond - even back into past lives. it seems to be pushing towards an innocence- a healing of all wounds. it is not structured in any way - just the direction in which life unfolds.
any further observations or comments about the Black Moon and regression would be welcome

Hi,
Without going so deeply into the Black Moon called Lilith as Blanca has done, my own research into BML's
significance on 'an everyday level' has shown strong associations with the unconditional innocence of childhood;
what I refer to as the 'natural first nature instinct', that does not differentiate between right and wrong, etc.
but just 'acts naturally'.
In my view, this instinct is not repressed or suppressed but OPPRESSED by the Moon and Saturn's conditioning
regarding what should and shouldn't be, what is and isn't allowed, etc.. The position of BML has come up time
and time again in associations with 'the inner child' - the one who could not be yet lives within.
Where BML shows reference to inner creativeness that lays dormant within waiting to surface, I believe its
meaning to coincide with reaching the state of 'wholeness', as that which was denied for whatever reason by
Self in order to feel accepted, is finally allowed its rightful place and integrated into BEING.
Maybe BML-NN pertains to Pluto overcoming the overpowering effect of natal Moon, so that that which has beendenied existence for so long can be admitted?
Friesiangal.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #98 - on: 06.09.2007 at 12:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 06.09.2007 at 10:19 [UT+1]:... my own research into BML's significance on 'an everyday level' has shown strong associations with the unconditional innocence ofchildhood; what I refer to as the 'natural first nature instinct', that does not differentiate between right and wrong, etc. but just 'acts
naturally'.

Very interesting. Thanks. I think I agree with that, although personally I feel this is "regressive". We have theproblem of finding the right words... for example: a lot of what I wrote of the Black Moon in my last post could
be associated with some people with Moon/Neptune, and that would require differentiating further between
Moon/Neptune and the Black Moon. It is not easy to find the right words to achieve this.
The regression does not always have to be negative. For example: we can temprarily go back to the "fountain oflife" (or to Eden) in order to bath in it and renew or invigorate our contact with some very basic, very primal
aspects of our deepest identity, our "roots", such as the type of innocence you refer to here. But what happens
when there is too much of it? What happens when this is over-emphasized in a chart? Isn't this childhood
innocence often extremely cruel and destructive for an adult?
Likewise, we can "bath" in the regenerative power of basic or "raw" sexuality, of the experience of finding thatspecial person with whom we are able to experience "eating of the fruit" of the Tree of Life. There are otherexperiences of this type, probably all related to that mysterious "entity" that lives inside of us like a living ghostfrom the past: our inner child, our longing for paradise, for our soul mate, for the spiritual miracolous waters of
the Fountain of Life.
This is where fantsy sets in. Fantasy can be very very creative, very destructive, it can be submerged by instinct
or by sexuality, etc.
Quote:In my view, this instinct is not repressed or suppressed but OPPRESSED by the Moon and Saturn's conditioning regarding what should andshouldn't be, what is and isn't allowed, etc.. The position of BML has come up time and time again in associations with 'the inner child' the one who could not be yet lives within.

Yes. I think we are getting into something very interesting and powerful here. However, I think the opression
here is not Saturn, but the symbolism itself of the empty focus "inside" the lunar orbit yet untouchable or
unreachable, very real but at the same time very elusive, like a ghost or like a fantasy that stems fromsomething that is lost yet it lives inside and controls us right from our roots. These "roots" are "Mother Earth",the "other Earth", the "lost Earth", lost in the darkness of our unconscious, of our childhood, of our womb.
Quote:
Where BML shows reference to inner creativeness that lays dormant within waiting to surface, I believe its meaning to coincide withreaching the state of 'wholeness', as that which was denied for whatever reason by Self in order to feel accepted, is finally allowed its
rightful place and integrated into BEING. -- Friesiangal"BEING" is the Sun. The "wholenes" of the Black Moon is the wholeness of the womb, real wholeness indeed,but it is not the wholeness of the Sun. What is the difference?
B.
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #99 - on: 06.09.2007 at 16:09 [UT+1] »I've been following this thread for a while but am now somewhat confused over meanings.
My mean BML or Lilith is 1 dg from my MC so is very difficult to differentiate in effect from transits to MC.
While my true or Osc BML isstudied in isolation.

at 14 dg Capricorn partile Juno at 14 Capricorn, so again it is not able to be

I would appreciate any comment Blanca or Friesiangal that you have to make, that may assist me understandwhat those positions might mean.
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SoHot
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #100 - on: 06.09.2007 at 16:22 [UT+1] »Hello I am new...BML has always fascinated me.

I am struggling with my career nowadays. I know I lovelanguages, travel and Art. My BML is in Saggitarrus in the 11th house, & most of my planets are in the 9thhouse, and my Part of Fortune is in the third house. Is this indicative of a career abroad and/or in education?
I am stuck like crazy!

Anyone have BML in Saggitarius?

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #101 - on: 06.09.2007 at 16:52 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 06.09.2007 at 16:09 [UT+1]:
My mean BML or Lilith is 1 dg from my MC so is very difficult to differentiate in effect from transits to MC.
While my true or Osc BML is at 14 dg Capricorn partile Juno at 14 Capricorn, so again it is not able to be studied in isolation.

My suggestion is that you examine not the natal position but how you respond to the transiting Black Moon
when it is or was conjunct or opposition to your Sun, your Moon, or your Venus. Examine also how you
respond to synastry contacts with other people's Black Moons.
I would also find it hard to separate the Black Moon from Juno without having grasped first how do you
personally respond to the Black Moon in principle (as in its tranisting contacts). Differentiating it from the M.C.
may be easier, because unlike Juno, the MC does not carry a strong identification with women or with primal
sexuality, or with creative fantasy.
The key to understand the Black Moon is to interpret it in terms of the realm to which it belongs: the dark
aspects of the primitive lunar symbolism. It is purely lunar and it never goes beyond what the Moon stands for.
We have first to disentangle it from "Lilith", and think of it instead as one impportant and integral part of the"Moon complex", the "lunar complex" or "lunar structure" (i.e., the physical Moon together with its orbit) of anindividual. Then we make our interpretation of the empty focus of the orbit, "the other Earth", the "absent
other" around which our lunar experiences revolve.
As long as we keep this "lunar complex" symbolism in mind and never go beyond the symbolical realm of theMoon, the "lunar domain" of experience, we will be able to differentiate it from other astrological factors.
For example: Juno is a main-belt asteroid. It belongs to a level of experience signified by the "middle ground"between Mars and Jupiter (to which, for example, the asteroid 1181 Lilith belongs), therefore it acts withing the"institutionalized" or "civilized", social, gregarious, "acceptable" role-playing or social division of labor in any
society. The Black Moon, on the other hand, is very "uterine", it belongs to a primitive, more instinctual level,
related to your bodily functions and to your "memories" from the long gone past that is nevertheless alive, tothe purely lunar and "basic" organic as well as non-physical level of experience.
B.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #102 - on: 06.09.2007 at 17:19 [UT+1] »Many thanks Blanca, that is helpful.

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #103 - on: 06.09.2007 at 17:33 [UT+1] »I certainly prefer Blanca's approach based on the point's nature as an orbital characteristic to mythologically
based interpretation. But that's probably just my own bias. Nod to Juan Revilla along the way, of course.

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Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #104 - on: 06.09.2007 at 21:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 21.08.2007 at 19:48 [UT+1]:
Hello allHere is a link that describes lunar apogee & perigee for those who want to discover more about it. As to why it came to be known as"Black Moon Lilith" there is a second link.
Whether you place any Astrological value on it or not is up to you.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/moon_ap_per.html
http://www.horusset.com/RIKB/Lillith.pdf
Gene RayFor what its worth to anyone at all:I just read all the info at these two links in Ray's opening of this Lilith Thread.
The second link's definitions understandings and conclusions with reference to the meaning of Lilith as asymbol in modern context in a woman's chart ~Thankyou sincerely Ray ~ this leaves me with little doubt that my own Lilith is my best asset, very well placedin its opposition to my natal Sun in Virgo (magi*beneficent energy!) where natal Mercury gives me the scribe's
magic tool to express myself in complete defiance of male hegemony and institutionalized misogyny ~ my Lilith
grid was fired by transiting Ur*anus in may 2004 ~ when I suspect, my second Saturn return to its twelfthHouse Leo position had a role to play (need to verify).
Uranus/Saturn/Jupiter all seem to work FOR ME. Now I am master of my own chart.
This lilil Lilith of my very own was a gift which I am now sure is shining because of Saturn's return to my
Leonine 12th House fool of Moonish and plutonian depth charges waiting to implode or explode unless eye vent
the slave/s/lava out of the depths of the void eye had been constrained to by misogy*nyhilistic shtick ~enslavement (Virgo Service) all my life.
Lookout Folks ~ Lilith's back in town
Oh ya*baby eye luv lilith.
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #105 - on: 06.09.2007 at 23:58 [UT+1] »[quote author=Blanca ]Quote:
Quote:[quote author=Friesiangal ]... my own research into BML's significance on 'an everyday level' has shown strong

Posts: 6820
Gender:associations with the unconditional innocence of childhood; what I refer to as the 'natural first nature instinct', that does
not differentiate between right and wrong, etc. but just 'acts naturally'.

Very interesting. Thanks. I think I agree with that, although personally I feel this is "regressive".

How so? If you watch young children BEFORE they have been told NOT to do this or that, they are acting
naturally without inhibition. This will also include the 'animal instinct' of behaviour which they are taught tocurb. Do you mean this by 'regressive'?
Quote:We have the problem of finding the right words... for example: a lot of what I wrote of the Black Moon in my last post could be
associated with some people with Moon/Neptune, and that would require differentiating further between Moon/Neptune and the Black
Moon. It is not easy to find the right words to achieve this.

I think the biggest difference between Black Moon Lilith and a planet is that the planet produces something
manifestational whilst Black Moon Lilith remains an active inner feeling that produces the true or false images
through which a planet further functions.
Quote:The regression does not always have to be negative. For example: we can temprarily go back to the "fountain of life" (or to Eden) inorder to bath in it and renew or invigorate our contact with some very basic, very primal aspects of our deepest identity, our "roots", suchas the type of innocence you refer to here. But what happens when there is too much of it? What happens when this is over-emphasized ina chart? Isn't this childhood innocence often extremely cruel and destructive for an adult?

I believe we are thinking at two entirely different levels of consciousness, which makes it difficult to offer a reply
to your question.
Quote:
Quote:In my view, this instinct is not repressed or suppressed but OPPRESSED by the Moon and Saturn's conditioning regarding
what should and shouldn't be, what is and isn't allowed, etc.. The position of BML has come up time and time again in
associations with 'the inner child' - the one who could not be yet lives within.

Yes. I think we are getting into something very interesting and powerful here. However, I think the opression here is not Saturn, but thesymbolism itself of the empty focus "inside" the lunar orbit yet untouchable or unreachable, very real but at the same time very elusive,
like a ghost or like a fantasy that stems from something that is lost yet it lives inside and controls us right from our roots.

This sounds as if Black Moon must have a controlling factor of its own. Yet i consider it to be Saturn controllingthe 'instinctive urges' function within the Black Moon, which are then perceived, felt, and experienced 'to bewhat is wrong with me ' when it isn't at all so.
It was whilst studying Nelson Mandela's chart (although accurate birth time is unknown) that the word
'oppressed' seemed to make sense when pertaining to Black Moon.
Quote:"BEING" is the Sun. The "wholenes" of the Black Moon is the wholeness of the womb, real wholeness indeed, but it is not the wholeness of
the Sun. What is the difference?

Self denial of a trait, i.e. Black Moon, leaves one with a feeling of incompleteness....the hole, the void, theemptiness. Whatever Black Moon refers to needs to feel integrated and only the individual Self can do this. The
missing piece of the puzzle makes one complete. Perhaps a better word for 'being' is 'entity'?
Friesiangal

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Friesiangal
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #106 - on: 07.09.2007 at 00:03 [UT+1] »Hi SunSag,
You don't offer much information and I haven't studied BML in aspect to the angles, as both are points rather
than objects.
If you would be prepared to mention any aspects BML makes to planets, we might discover something.
Posts: 6820
Gender:How's your conscience?
Friesiangal

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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #107 - on: 07.09.2007 at 01:32 [UT+1] »Hello Friesiangal,
I have a strong conscience in that I would be troubled if I harmed someone or wronged someone, especially if
it were unnecessary. It is somewhat individual in that I do not feel particularly bound by others imposedvalues onto me, freedom is a major theme with me especially from manipulation and projected guilt. In
general my own sense of fair play and conscience is more than sufficient.
As for aspects
BML(lillith): conj Aquarius MC, sextile Mercury (4dg), sextile Vertex(0dg), sextile Jupiter (5dg), trine Neptune(7dg) and quincunx Mars (2dg).
As I worked as an advertising copywriter the Mercury Jupiter sextile to MC and BML seems effective. Mars is myascendant ruler.
Osc BML:
conj Juno in Capricorn (partile), conj Venus (5dg), semisextile Sun (0dg), semisquare Mercury (1dg), binovile
Moon (0dg), square Neptune (2dg) , quincunx Pluto (0dg), quadnovile Uranus (0dg).
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GiannaMember

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #108 - on: 07.09.2007 at 07:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Gene Ray on 22.08.2007 at 22:42 [UT+1]:
Hello allHere is a quote from a discussion about measuring the positon of black moon lilith.
5-) the transformation from barycentric to geocentric is never made in astrological practice. It results in an oscillation of +- 0,40' whenthe Black Moon is defined as the apogee, and of +- 6.4 degrees when it is defined as the empty focus of the orbit. In other words, thegeocentric position of the apogee can differ by more than 6 degrees from the geocentric position of the empty focus of the orbit. They are
the same only in the barycentric reference frame, not in the geocentric.

Posts: 547
Gender:Now my assumption is that Astrodienst defines lilith as the apogee (roughly the moons far point of travel) and is measured geocentricly(from the center of the earth).
The barycentric postion pertains to (I believe) the positon of center of gravity between the earth and the Moon (the empty focus of theorbit).
Since the variation can be as much as + or - 6.4 degrees the distiniction is important.
Perhaps someone who knows for sure can tell us?
Gene RayMy question is simple .. according to my chart done on astro.com i have a black half moon symbolon a cross and according to the graphs its called lillith im not sure but in any case the black half moon thing isin my 6th house .. and nothing else is there so what does it mean to have in 6th house? anyone
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Don M

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #109 - on: 07.09.2007 at 09:57 [UT+1] »i want to point out a couple of similiarities between the Black Moon and the 12 th house. what i am seeing may
be a personal distortion based on having neptune in the 12 th in opposition to the Black Moon - so bear that inmind
Posts: 282
Gender:first a quote from Blanca"The idea is that it is purely lunar and "dark", it is an empty point, hollow and ghostly, related to the past andto the womb. Its pull is that of regression and loss of individuality, going back to the bliss of the womb, or theastral plane, out-of-the-body, etc.. In our normal waking life we experience this through fantasy, primitive or
instinctive intuition, and sexuality.
We were also talking about the possible important differences in the way we experience this point between men
and women. The Black Moon /Empty Focus is the closest there is in Astrology to ourselves, or the Earth, so its
primal symbolism is more directly related to the experience of sexuality and of our body, how do we feel about
having a pennis or not having one, being pregnant and giving birth or never being able able to do that because
our bodies are different. "note the paradox in these two reflections on the Black Moon - it is first an "empty point, hollow and ghostly,
related to the past and to the womb" - and then it is also "the closest there is in Astrology to ourselves, or the
Earth, so its primal symbolism is more directly related to the experience of sexuality and of our body". on one
hand the Black Moon is empty and hollow and on the other hand it is the closest we are to ourselves, the earth, and our bodies. to me, this level of paradox seems very similiar to that which one deals with when working
with Neptune and the 12 th house.
the other similiarity i find between the Black Moon and the 12 th house is related to the notion of " self
undoing" . what i have found within myself and others around the Black Moon point is a very intense reactive
emotional charge that very often has the effect of undermining or disassembling individuality on some level.
the reactive rage associated with the Black Moon often becomes a negative mechanism for soul evolution - theindividual actually evolves/devolves and becomes like what he or she hates..... this also seems similiar to theself undoing of the 12 th house......
Blanca and Friesiangal - thank you both for your reflections regarding my Moon/Pluto and Black Moon/NN
configurations. very potent and accurate insights. with maturity, what i am finding is that the devouring thrustof the Black Moon towards innocence is actually disassembling the negative effects of the Moon/Pluto contact.
the whole process was accelerated over this past year as the Saturn - Neptune opposition "sat" upon my
Moon/Pluto square.

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #110 - on: 07.09.2007 at 11:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 06.09.2007 at 23:58 [UT+1]:... the unconditional innocence of childhood; what I refer to as the 'natural first nature instinct', that does not differentiate between rightand wrong, etc. but just 'acts naturally'.
... I think I agree with that, although personally I feel this is "regressive".
How so? If you watch young children BEFORE they have been told NOT to do this or that, they are acting naturally without inhibition. This
will also include the 'animal instinct' of behaviour which they are taught to curb. Do you mean this by 'regressive'?

if we "go back" to a state when we had no cosciousness and just "acted naturally", that is possible only
temporarily. Gaining consciousness with respect to the Black Moon is not in the sense of restricting it (the BlackMoon) by imposing rules on our instincts or natural impulses, but in the sense of waking up from a dream.
Once we wake up, going to sleep again to continue dreaming for a prolongued period becomes toxic.
"the unconditional innocence of childhood" exists only in the form of a dream inside of us (like the empty focus)that we project outside (like the lunar apogee). There can be no actual going back in the same sense that theempty focus is not really there --there is nothing there from a material point of view, only mirrors andreflections, voices from the past or from other worlds. If an adult "goes back" and becomes a child again, it can
only happen as a regression, or as a temporary recapitulation carried out by the healing forces of our body andour soul, after which we "emerge" renewed by the experience.
I feel that the Black Moon has this power. But if we attach ourselves to it, we will be "encroached by thepresent", i.e., encroached by the real Moon, living inside the empty focus in fetal position inside the uterus of a
spiritual bliss that we refuse to leave.
Quote:
I think the biggest difference between Black Moon Lilith and a planet is that the planet produces something manifestational whilst Black
Moon Lilith remains an active inner feeling that produces the true or false images through which a planet further functions.

right. That's why I like to use the word "fantasy".
Quote:In my view, this instinct is not repressed or suppressed but OPPRESSED by the Moon and Saturn's conditioning regarding what should andshouldn't be, what is and isn't allowed, etc.. The position of BML has come up time and time again in associations with 'the inner child' the one who could not be yet lives within.

If the inner child is neglected, it will control us, enslaving us as a cruel tyrant, and we will never become adults.
But not neglecting this inner child doesn't mean becoming the child --that would destroy us, it means that we
as adults must embrace him, offering him or her the warmth, the love, and the protection that only an adultcan offer, rescuing him or her from the abandonment of a fatherless and motherless desolated life inside the"cage" of the Black Moon / empty focus of the psyche. The difference between the neurotic regression tochildhood and lovingly embracing this inner child as adults is the difference between the Sun and the Black
Moon.
Quote:
This sounds as if Black Moon must have a controlling factor of its own. Yet i consider it to be Saturn controlling the 'instinctive urges'
function within the Black Moon, which are then perceived, felt, and experienced 'to be what is wrong with me ' when it isn't at all so.

I think this is the function of Saturn at every level, not only the level of the Black Moon. This "what is wrong
with me" is not really the Black Moon, it is Saturn. Saturn is the oppression, not the Black Moon.
Every astrological factor has "a controlling factor of its own", in the sense that it can only be itself. It cannot be
the Sun, although a "Black Moon neurotic" will pretend to be the Sun
Quote:
It was whilst studying Nelson Mandela's chart (although accurate birth time is unknown) that the word 'oppressed' seemed to make sensewhen pertaining to Black Moon.

I wish you could explain this more, with concrete astrological data.
Quote:
Self denial of a trait, i.e. Black Moon, leaves one with a feeling of incompleteness....the hole, the void, the emptiness. Whatever Black
Moon refers to needs to feel integrated and only the individual Self can do this. The missing piece of the puzzle makes one complete.
Perhaps a better word for 'being' is 'entity'? Friesiangal

Yes. But this is true of every other astrological factor, not just the Black Moon. What I mean is: there is a "dark"or "shadow" aspect of every planet that --if we deny it-- will make us feel incomplete.
Personally, I do not feel the Black Moon can be characterized as representing a "void" or "a lack", in the same
way that the uterus is never "a void". This Black Moon material emptiness is always full of dreams, memomries,
fantasies, ghosts, ancient wisdom, whispers from other worlds and other times, mystery, strange nocturnal
beings, etc. The fact that we long for something we don't have is because that something is very much, very
powerfully, inside of us.
I am only trying to find the right words that work for me. My understanding of the Black Moon is in the process
of formation, it is not anything definitive.
B.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

MyriosEx Member« Reply #111 - on: 07.09.2007 at 18:32 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 06.09.2007 at 01:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myrios on 06.09.2007 at 00:00 [UT+1]:
Sorry, Blanca, as far as I see it you are way out on your own limb. We are all talking BML/Lunar Apogee here. - Myrios

You have the right to believe that the symbolism of "Lilith" and that of the Black Moon/lunar apogee are the same. I thinkthat's a mistake. My exchange with Don was based on the assumption that they are different things, if you care to read the original

posts.
B.

Blanca, I have now finished my second read of this thread and links to this point.
I refer you back to your own link ~ http://www.tdjacobs.com/user/BML%2015Jun07/doc.pdf for its
symbological context of Lilith.
Tom Jacobs' description of Lilith symbolism is right on the money as far as I have experienced "Lilith" personally~
PLEASE N.B. ~ Jacobs concludes in his article:"The construction of the myth as a vehicle to explain the energy, to create a justification of theenergy, is rather transparent"
He explains this position ~ i.e. Adam created from dust, but Lilith created from filth in the Jewish notion.
However Jacobs adds that filth is really the addition of water to dust which he interprets to mean that to Lilith,
god added something extra ~ ie. WATER ~ which I interpret in turn to represent WATER as the source of ALL
life.
I also interpret Jacobs as saying that it does not really matter which symbol one uses for "Lilith" ~ heraction as archetype in the unconscious, and the individual's interpretation of her energy, are highly individual.
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Friesiangal
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #112 - on: 08.09.2007 at 09:49 [UT+1] »[quote author=SunSagMoonLib]
Quote:
Hello Friesiangal,
I have a strong conscience in that I would be troubled if I harmed someone or wronged someone, especially if it were unnecessary. It

Posts: 6820
Gender:is somewhat individual in that I do not feel particularly bound by others imposed values onto me, freedom is a major theme withme especially from manipulation and Quote:projected guilt.

BML(lillith): conj Aquarius MC, sextile Mercury (4dg), sextile Vertex(0dg), sextile Jupiter (5dg), trine Neptune (7dg) and quincunx Mars
(2dg).
As I worked as an advertising copywriter the Mercury Jupiter sextile to MC and BML seems effective. Mars is my ascendant ruler.

Hi again, Sunsag,
I only work with the MEAN position of BML (as per astro.com box) and do not use ...ovile aspects, except
perhaps the novile. I use max. 4 degree orbs for sextiles, 6 degr. for major aspects, up to 2 degr. for minors. I
would therefore include only Mercury, and Mars because of its importance as ruler of Ascending sign, as aspects
to your BML.
With no disrespect whatsoever to Blanca, my approach to BML's significance works from a different perspective.
I have emphasised certain words in your message because I have found these to often have relevance to BML's
placing. Where Saturn refers to guilt by fact, BML is often representative of the 'guilt', i.e. blame, that one
accepts or is placed upon them although they are not at fault.
BML in Aquarius seems to act the most naturally because it is the sign where its disconnection from feeling andseparation from close physical contact works the most comfortably. It would depend upon whether Mercury,Mars and Jupiter are 'connected' by aspect, as to whether BML puts a spoke in their working wheel in that
respect.
The often negative indications towards Aquarius could be applied to this position, as per the outer actions of
Uranus and its aspects which automatically provide the independent air of being different and rebellistic to thesocial norm which, however, the social name may not find acceptable.
Is it possible that you have experienced 'feeling wronged' in that respect? That 'what society/bosses dictate 'did actually nag at you inside until you were able to 'not care' what people think?
You mentioned imposed values. The quincunx from Mars (in Gemini/Virgo?) in the 2nd or 5th houses would
suggest tension regarding a physically creative edge. One might not be considered masculine, 'manly', or showcourage, whereas standing up for one's own values in a manner everyone can see (10th house) is indicative of
an inner courage that many would wish they possesed.
Without the full horoscope it is difficult to give a greater definition but, like you, I would also presume to thinkthat Mercury to Jupiter is suggestive of the writing talent. Yet there is more to it than the eye can see. BML
shows the side that may not find the public recognition that leaves you, personally, with a sense ofunfulfilment. The Mars to BML could suggest a tension regarding DOING something about it to give expression
to that which lies dormant within you.
In my country there is the idea that the M.C. refers to not only one's place in the world but also one's destiny.
Does 'living outside the bounderies' feel to be a strong part of yours?
Just a few ideas.
Friesiangal
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #113 - on: 08.09.2007 at 10:25 [UT+1] »Blanca:Quote:
the unconditional innocence of childhood" exists only in the form of a dream inside of us (like the empty focus) that we project outside(like the lunar apogee). There can be no actual going back in the same sense that the empty focus is not really there --there is nothing
there from a material point of view, only mirrors and reflections, voices from the past or from other worlds. If an adult "goes back" andPosts: 6820
Gender:becomes a child again, it can only happen as a regression, or as a temporary recapitulation carried out by the healing forces of our bodyand our soul, after which we "emerge" renewed by the experience.

Hi again,
I did not mean that one should return to childhood but that a person could look back at the childhod
experiences through which the child felt denied/rejected/unaccepted/cast away. At that time 'the child' cancease to function or exist as the child it truly is. The adult can bring back the child by the later understandingof the experiences, whereby 'the child' is again accepted and integrated into the person.
A very simple example that occured yesterday that might explain what I mean.
The large supermaket where I do my shoppping is undergoing extension, including an underground garage.
There is a magnetic grid rather than stair elevator to hold the trolleys as they go up/down. One of the approx.
30+yr. old builders had bought his lunch and was descending the elevator alone. No one was going up and hedidn't see me turn the corner and follow behind him. He went into 'snow board position' and went down thatelevator as if it was a ski slope upon which he was balancing, his body moving to and fro to stay upright. He
turned at the bottom, saw me and immediately felt embarrassed and attempted to apologize. I just smiled andsaid there was nothing wrong in letting the kid in him have its way, at which he grinned and nodded.
I'd lay a bet that that young man has a positive positioned BML in his chart. Those that suffer theconsequences of childhood often do not.
Friesiangal.
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #114 - on: 08.09.2007 at 13:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 08.09.2007 at 09:49 [UT+1]:

BML in Aquarius seems to act the most naturally because it is the sign where its disconnection from feeling and separation from close
physical contact works the most comfortably. It would depend upon whether Mercury, Mars and Jupiter are 'connected' by aspect, as towhether BML puts a spoke in their working wheel in that respect.

Yes Mars tight square to Mercury conjunct Jupiter
Quote:The often negative indications towards Aquarius could be applied to this position, as per the outer actions of Uranus and its aspects which
automatically provide the independent air of being different and rebellistic to the social norm which, however, the social name may notfind acceptable.

I've always been a bit aloof from the environment I'm in, the posh kid at a rougher school, the rougher kid at aposh school, the freelancer in a company where most are permanent employees etc. But I have had closefriends all the same.
Quote:Is it possible that you have experienced 'feeling wronged' in that respect? That 'what society/bosses dictate ' did actually nag at you inside
until you were able to 'not care' what people think?

Yes, there have been times when I deliberately did things that made me stand out , daring to be different, as away I think now of not allowing myself to be dominated by what people may think . For example, catching thetrain to work at peak hour in a fire engine red suit. You can't be shy and do that.
Quote:You mentioned imposed values. The quincunx from Mars (in Gemini/Virgo?) in the 2nd or 5th houses would suggest tension regarding aphysically creative edge. One might not be considered masculine, 'manly', or show courage, whereas standing up for one's own values in amanner everyone can see (10th house) is indicative of an inner courage that many would wish they possesed.

Twice entering a school boy boxing competition where I had to compete against boys a year older (and somewere stronger) than me. I came runner up one year and won the other year.
Quote:
Without the full horoscope it is difficult to give a greater definition but, like you, I would also presume to think that Mercury to Jupiter issuggestive of the writing talent. Yet there is more to it than the eye can see. BML shows the side that may not find the public recognition
that leaves you, personally, with a sense of unfulfilment. The Mars to BML could suggest a tension regarding DOING something about it to
give expression to that which lies dormant within you.
In my country there is the idea that the M.C. refers to not only one's place in the world but also one's destiny. Does 'living outside thebounderies' feel to be a strong part of yours?
Just a few ideas.
Friesiangal

Well I'm conventional in that I have a house, marriage and children and am "straight", on the other hand I havenearly always had a lot of day-to-day freedom, and travel freedom as well (wife is airline employee). I feelthat's an unusual combination compared to my contemporaries, but it's hard to know these days what is
considered outside the boundaries any more.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #115 - on: 08.09.2007 at 14:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 08.09.2007 at 10:25 [UT+1]:... He went into 'snow board position' and went down that elevator as if it was a ski slope upon which he was balancing, his body moving
to and fro to stay upright. He turned at the bottom, saw me and immediately felt embarrassed and attempted to apologize. I just smiledand said there was nothing wrong in letting the kid in him have its way, at which he grinned and nodded.
I'd lay a bet that that young man has a positive positioned BML in his chart. Those that suffer the consequences of childhood often do not.
- Friesiangal.

To my mind this is the expression of a vital and healthy Sun, and I could not associate it with an invisible pointin the orbit of the Moon. This type of spontaneous expression of the inner child manifests a fullness of life thatis the opposite of the Black Moon. When the inner child is no longer denied, it becomes integrated, which to memeans leaving the realm of the Black Moon behind and "emerging" to the light of the Sun.
This is --from my perpective-- what happens with "Lilith", as I explained in a previous post: as long as we keep
Lilith constrained to the Black Moon, Lilith is in chains. When Liliths liberates herself fom these chains, sheleaves the Black Moon (the apogee / empty focus) behind.
Something to keep in mind is that you use the mean position of the apogee --which describes a perfectly
circular or "solar" orbit around the Earth-- while I use the osculating or "true" position, which can be as much as
30 degrees away from the mean. Sometimes they are very close, but often they are very different points,
different sign, different house, different aspects. The same with the transiiting position: the mean apogee
passes only once through a point in the zodiac, as regular as a clock, while the osculating apogee passes up to
20 times through the same point during a period of several months.
So essentially, the mean and the osculating apogee or Black Moon are different points that have many things incommon, but which also have important differences. They share the symbols of "apogee" and "empty focus",but move or "behave" very differently, their "dynamics" are almost antithetical, and this may result in themhaving different astrological characteristics.
B.
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BlancaEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #116 - on: 08.09.2007 at 14:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 07.09.2007 at 18:32 [UT+1]:
Blanca, I have now finished my second read of this thread and links to this point.
I also interpret Jacobs as saying that it does not really matter which symbol one uses for "Lilith" ~ her action as archetype in theunconscious, and the individual's interpretation of her energy, are highly individual. - Myrios

All I can comment to this is what I already wrote:... as long as Lilith is constrained to the Black Moon she will be chained and enraged, because Lilith as anarchetype extends to other planetary realms far beyond the lunar orbit, and being encaged in the Black Moon
makes her suffer without end. Likewise, the Black Moon extends beyond the Lilith symbolism and encompasses
a more primal and transcendental archetype, that of the unreachable and infinitely fertile "primal womb", theuroborus, the "Mother Earth" or "Great Mother"B.
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Don M

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #117 - on: 08.09.2007 at 15:12 [UT+1] »the Virgo Sun in my chart - in the 11 th and conjunct saturn, was the center - the arbiter - of the defensive
complexes against the Black Moon innocence. the Sun for me has been both oppressive and disassociative.
but the ruler of the Sun and Saturn - Mercury - is conjunct Neptune on the Libra 12 th house SN - so healing
has flowed thru a dissolution and rebalancing of the Sun's influence within my psyche.
Posts: 282
Gender:i am wondering if the defenses against the Black Moon define our individualities ?

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Friesiangal
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #118 - on: 09.09.2007 at 11:16 [UT+1] »Quote:
To my mind this is the expression of a vital and healthy Sun, and I could not associate it with an invisible point in the orbit of the Moon.
This type of spontaneous expression of the inner child manifests a fullness of life that is the opposite of the Black Moon. When the innerchild is no longer denied, it becomes integrated, which to me means leaving the realm of the Black Moon behind and"emerging" to the light of the Sun.

Posts: 6820
Gender:(my emphasis)
Which is exactly the point (forgive the pun!) I was attempting to make.
Black Moon CAN be integrated and act in a positive manner, whereby it is felt less than the harshly aspected
point would be.
Quote:
This is --from my perpective-- what happens with "Lilith", as I explained in a previous post: as long as we keep Lilith constrained to theBlack Moon, Lilith is in chains. When Liliths liberates herself fom these chains, she leaves the Black Moon (the apogee / empty focus)
behind.

NOW I am confused. You subtley imply that Lilith is, or could be, a guise within Black Moon ?
Quote:
Something to keep in mind is that you use the mean position of the apogee --which describes a perfectly circular or "solar" orbit aroundthe Earth-- while I use the osculating or "true" position, which can be as much as 30 degrees away from the mean. Sometimes they arevery close, but often they are very different points, different sign, different house, different aspects.

Yes; this is so. Once MEAN BML reaches Sagittarius, the next 10 years will be spent studying the TRUE position.

Friesiangal
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #119 - on: 09.09.2007 at 15:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 08.09.2007 at 14:19 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myrios on 07.09.2007 at 18:32 [UT+1]:
Blanca, I have now finished my second read of this thread and links to this point.
I also interpret Jacobs as saying that it does not really matter which symbol one uses for "Lilith" ~ her action asarchetype in the unconscious, and the individual's interpretation of her energy, are highly individual. - Myrios

All I can comment to this is what I already wrote:... as long as Lilith is constrained to the Black Moon she will be chained and enraged, because Lilith as an archetype extends to otherplanetary realms far beyond the lunar orbit, and being encaged in the Black Moon makes her suffer without end. Likewise, the Black Moon
extends beyond the Lilith symbolism and encompasses a more primal and transcendental archetype, that of the unreachable and infinitely
fertile "primal womb", the uroborus, the "Mother Earth" or "Great Mother"B.

Sorry Blanca I don't want to reread the thread again ~ who is the source of this quote?
I believe the symbolism used here is not helpful to clarification of our topic ~ Lunar Apogee or Black Moon
Lilith ~ BML does not represent Mother Earth, who represents herself afterall ~ the Uroborus in myunderstanding represents the apparent path of the sun around the Earth (not the Moon) ~ 365 circles a year ~While the Moon herself represents the Great Mother, full partner with Father Sun/Sky.
If Moon represents the Uruboros, her cycle is different and would as you say encompass BML ~ but BML is castout, she is at that far loneliest point, the cast away point, or Lunar Apogee point, where indeed Lilithlanguished in pain ~ till now.
The fact that "Lilith" has been assigned to represent Apogee while "Priapus" represents Perigee is very telling as
an indicator of the meanings assigned to these points by Astrology ~ a male and female point in the Moon's
course? At Perigee, the male is frustrated, at Apogee, the female is banished.
But the term "Lilith" has already accrued its own mythological proportions and that is what we are discussing inthis thread.
IMO
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #120 - on: 09.09.2007 at 15:12 [UT+1] »Gene Ray have you ducked out of this thread?
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #121 - on: 09.09.2007 at 17:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 09.09.2007 at 11:16 [UT+1]:
Quote:... to me means leaving the realm of the Black Moon behind [/b]and "emerging" to the light of the Sun.
(my emphasis)
Which is exactly the point (forgive the pun!) I was attempting to make.
Black Moon CAN be integrated and act in a positive manner, whereby it is felt less than the harshly aspected point would be.

We can learn to react or live creatively with something to wich before we were reacting destructively, but what
we were reacting to remains the same, and in this case, the positive reaction is not in the Black Moon, but aresult of the strengthening of the Sun. So it all depends on how we approach an astrological chart, how weconceive this change astrologically.
This made me remember the tale of the scorpion and the frog...
Can the Black Moon be something else than the Black Moon? Can it be the Sun? Can an invisible point in the
lunar orbit have qualities similar to a real planet? What is the difference between the Black Moon and the REALMoon?
Why do we give integrative power to something like Chiron --for example-- which by its nature is a symbol ofdisintegration and fragmentation? When we manage to integrate or "heal" Chiron does that mean it is nolonger the wound? Does it mean that the wound no longer exists? Is Chiron what gives us the awareness andunderstanding of the wound, or those planets that have always been associated with awareness andunderstanding in Astrology?
I think we are talking of dynamics, e.g., of the relationship between one sphere (the empty focus of the lunar
orbit) and another (the Sun), of how the soul or the psyche moves from one sphere to the other. So theintegration is the Black Moon or is it the Sun? How can a point where there is nothing there be compared witha real planet and be used as symbol of the integration? What are the "integrative forces" in Astrology? Whatsymbols do we use for these kind of forces?
Quote:
Quote:
This is --from my perpective-- what happens with "Lilith", as I explained in a previous post: as long as we keep Lilith
constrained to the Black Moon, Lilith is in chains. When Lilith liberates herself fom these chains, she leaves the Black Moon(the apogee / empty focus) behind.
NOW I am confused. You subtley imply that Lilith is, or could be, a guise within Black Moon ? --Friesiangal

When you liberate Lilith, it is no longer the Black Moon. Mythological archetypes propagate throughout
different planetary realms and are never contained by any single planet or point alone. Are we going to speak of
the Black Moon dynamics, or of the mythological transformations and evolution of Lilith through the different
planetary realms? (e.g., the solar aspect of lilith, the venus aspect, the saturn aspect, the plutonian aspect,
etc.)
B.
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BlancaEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #122 - on: 09.09.2007 at 20:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 09.09.2007 at 15:00 [UT+1]:
BML does not represent Mother Earth... the Uroborus in my understanding represents the apparent path of the sun around the Earth (notthe Moon) ~ 365 circles a year ~ While the Moon herself represents the Great Mother, full partner with Father Sun/Sky. - Myrios

type "lilith" and "great mother" in Google and see what you get. add "jung" to make it more specific.
B.
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Don M

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #123 - on: 10.09.2007 at 09:10 [UT+1] »Blanca - at the point of balance between the Sun and the Black Moon, both surrender their essential naturesand something new can emerge. the scorpion might actually refrain from stinging the frog, both get safely tothe other shore - and then he might even turn around kiss the frog and turn into a prince or some suchthing....... its a very special place.
Posts: 282
Gender:Back to top

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Gene Ray
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #124 - on: 10.09.2007 at 16:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Myrios on 09.09.2007 at 15:12 [UT+1]:
Gene Ray have you ducked out of this thread?
MyriosPosts: 3329
Gender:Hello Myrios
Not entirlely. I take the weekends off. I will read through the posts and comment if I have something to say. I
am not much into myth and so I alwalys look for concrete examples of effects. There are times to speak andtimes to just listen.
Gene Ray

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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #125 - on: 10.09.2007 at 16:26 [UT+1] »Thanks Gene. Good to know you are still listening.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #126 - on: 10.09.2007 at 17:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 10.09.2007 at 09:10 [UT+1]:
Blanca - at the point of balance between the Sun and the Black Moon, both surrender their essential

natures and something new can emerge. the scorpion might actually refrain from stinging the frog, both get safely tothe other shore - and then he might even turn around kiss the frog and turn into a prince or some such thing....... its a very special place.

At last something we can grapple with ~ the melding of sun and moon energies/qualities ~ thetransforming of both male and female into one new being within the Yone*Verse ~ each fully sexed member
able to stand unique within the whole ~ to integrate male/female positive/negative creative/destructive
impulses ~ re*creating her/his own individual flower within the posey ~ now able to see and utilize the fullpantheon of feminine powers formerly hidden in the iconography of the moon denied.
Though we already have this child ~ Earth (the ground of our own being) ~ we just don't pay her any
attention because we are so pre*occu*pied with our own A straw logi*STYX ~ watching a great GOD-in-th-sky(Ra or Re) Re*presented by Sun alone ~ at the expense of the mitigating Moon's softening power.
Blanca, I found this link that speaks to my own resonance with the Lilith I personally know very well. Lilith is awhole, integrated being in her own right. I could say I wish I had erected this webpage myself.
I have not found any clarifications for any points being postulated here however because what is rampant "outthere" still, is a lot of confusion surrounding the Moon in all her phases or aspects ~ she seems hugely
misunderstood and virtually unknown in reality i.e her actual appearance in the sky ~ some people still think
the moon only appears at night for example.
Since I am not a practicing astrologer or therapist or seeking any help on such matters, I relate first hand to
my own resonance with the Lilith archetype ~ however one personally sorts it out will work, I dare say.
In my own understanding the Black Moon (the black orb we cannot see, appearing just before the moon isreborn anew as a sliver) will be partly obscuring the setting Sun Tuesday evening in my neck of the woods, but
probably beneath my own line of vision in the mountain ridges where I live.
Black Moon is always available to me ~ because I use a lunar call*ender ~ it hilights apogee and perigee also.
A beautiful link:
http://evelynrodriquez.typepad.com/crossroads_dispatches/the_great_mother/index. html
MyriosBack to top
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #127 - on: 10.09.2007 at 20:52 [UT+1] »Hello!
My name is Liliane, I´ve read somewhere it originates from Lilith.
Some years ago I read "Interpreting Lilith" by Delphine Gloria Jay! Today I reread my Lilith aspects and housepositions!!! I just came home from a solitary camping with my dog on a small island and the peace andfreedom I experienced I can´t describe. I suddenly realized my extreme need for solitude, though I also have
had great fear of loneliness. And what do i read about having Lilith in the 8th! Exactly that need for seclusion,
to be able to think my own thoughts and have my own values, the 8th being the house of other peoples values.

Read the book!
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Gene Ray
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #128 - on: 10.09.2007 at 22:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Liliane Hakansson on 10.09.2007 at 20:52 [UT+1]:
Hello!
My name is Liliane, I´ve read somewhere it originates from Lilith.

Posts: 3329
Gender:Some years ago I read "Interpreting Lilith" by Delphine Gloria Jay! Today I reread my Lilith aspects and house positions!!! I just camehome from a solitary camping with my dog on a small island and the peace and freedom I experienced I can´t describe. I suddenly
realized my extreme need for solitude, though I also have had great fear of loneliness. And what do i read about having Lilith in the 8th!
Exactly that need for seclusion, to be able to think my own thoughts and have my own values, the 8th being the house of other peoples
values.
Read the book!

Hello Liliane Hakansson

Welcome to this string and to this forum. I started this string without any clear idea of Lilith.
If you have read the entire (very long) string you will have noticed that there is some disagreement of using
the Lilith in the chart drop down box selection (an average of sorts) or of the lunar Apogee "h23" in the box
where you may add asteroids or the "true oscillating black moon lilith". I am not trying to be technical, it's justthat I know of no other way to ask the question. Which Lilith do you use?
Gene Ray
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #129 - on: 12.09.2007 at 10:36 [UT+1] »[quote author=Blanca ]Quote:[quote author=Friesiangal]

Posts: 6820
Gender:Quote:
It was whilst studying Nelson Mandela's chart (although accurate birth time is unknown) that the word 'oppressed' seemed
to make sense when pertaining to Black Moon.

I wish you could explain this more, with concrete astrological data.

For comparison and fairness I have also included the position of TRUE
Black Moon called Lilith. Auto-biographical data obtained through Wikipedia. Birth data obtained fromAstrotheme, which appears to have been corrected from other birth data for 3p.m.
From study, BML in Libra has coincided, for whatever reason, with very deep feelings of inequality. Such cannever be more applicable to a race that was denied, i.e. oppressed, its right to equal co-existence (Libra)
through colour. Afrikaans-old Dutch 'Apartheid' means 'separate-ness' in English. Separation is considered therulership of Uranus. Taking any kind of action/fight is considered Mars.
BML to Mars has coincided with feelings of (lack of) inner courage to be who one truly is.
Mandela has MEAN BML conjunct Mars in Libra straddling the 11th house cusp, a house associated withindividualistic freedom. The conjunction is ssq. (135*) Retro. Uranus in Aquarius. Mandela became the 'symbol
for anti-apartheid' of that oppression, through his 27 year incarceration ( banishment) on Robben Island. MEAN
BML square Pluto in Cancer (the people?).
TRUE BML Retrograde is on 5* Libra, which degree is too wide to be considered conjunct Mars. It does square
the Jupiter-Pluto conjunction.
Mandela was a lawyer.
Mandela was released from imprisonment in Feb. 1990. MEAN BML was transiting 10-12 Scorpio in the 11thhouse (freedom?) during that month. It made no strong aspects to the natal chart, having squared Neptune
the previous month.
Transiting TRUE BML hovered direct/retrograde between 1-19 Scorpio, activating the wide 8th/9th housestellium in Leo.
Could this be suggestive of when 'the symbol' (MEAN) re-appeared as the 'figurehead' (TRUE) ? The
joint opposition to the 5th house vertex (according to birth time) does seem quite potent.
The ban on the ANC was lifted and Mandela was elected president of the organisation in July 1991. MEAN BML
was transiting 7-10 Capricorn in the 1st house (how symbolic?) sqaure the naal MEAN BML-Mars conjunction.
TRUE BML hovered between 18-27 Capricorn.
Mandela was elected President of South Africa 'in the winter of 1993.'
MEAN BML transited from 9-19 Aries (FIRST time) in the 5th house (leadership) during that time, directly
opposing natal MEAN BML-Mars.
TRUE BML hovered between 9 Aries - 3 Taurus en retrograde back to 7 Aries during the same period, trining the
9th house Mercury-Saturn (spokesman?) in Leo conjunction and sextiling Jupiter.
Oppression ceased to exist.
MEAN BML = inner reality, manifested in the outer reality 'symbolism' = TRUE BML ?
Regards,
Friesiangal.

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astro_2gw_26_nelson_mandela.27975.6890.gif(attachment deleted)
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Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #130 - on: 12.09.2007 at 19:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 12.09.2007 at 10:36 [UT+1]:[quote author=Blanca ]Quote:[quote author=Friesiangal]
Quote:
It was whilst studying Nelson Mandela's chart (although accurate birth time is unknown) that the word
'oppressed' seemed to make sense when pertaining to Black Moon.

I wish you could explain this more, with concrete astrological data.

For comparison and fairness I have also included the position of TRUE
Black Moon called Lilith. Auto-biographical data obtained through Wikipedia. Birth data obtained from Astrotheme, which appears to havebeen corrected from other birth data for 3p.m.
From study, BML in Libra has coincided, for whatever reason, with very deep feelings of inequality. Such can never be more applicable toa race that was denied, i.e. oppressed, its right to equal co-existence (Libra) through colour. Afrikaans-old Dutch 'Apartheid' means'separate-ness' in English. Separation is considered the rulership of Uranus. Taking any kind of action/fight is considered Mars.
BML to Mars has coincided with feelings of (lack of) inner courage to be who one truly is.
Mandela has MEAN BML conjunct Mars in Libra straddling the 11th house cusp, a house associated with individualistic freedom. The
conjunction is ssq. (135*) Retro. Uranus in Aquarius. Mandela became the 'symbol for anti-apartheid' of that oppression, through his 27
year incarceration ( banishment) on Robben Island. MEAN BML square Pluto in Cancer (the people?).
TRUE BML Retrograde is on 5* Libra, which degree is too wide to be considered conjunct Mars. It does square the Jupiter-Pluto conjunction.
Mandela was a lawyer.
Mandela was released from imprisonment in Feb. 1990. MEAN BML was transiting 10-12 Scorpio in the 11th house (freedom?) during thatmonth. It made no strong aspects to the natal chart, having squared Neptune the previous month.
Transiting TRUE BML hovered direct/retrograde between 1-19 Scorpio, activating the wide 8th/9th house stellium in Leo.
Could this be suggestive of when 'the symbol' (MEAN) re-appeared as the 'figurehead' (TRUE) ? The joint opposition to the 5thhouse vertex (according to birth time) does seem quite potent.
The ban on the ANC was lifted and Mandela was elected president of the organisation in July 1991. MEAN BML was transiting 7-10
Capricorn in the 1st house (how symbolic?) sqaure the naal MEAN BML-Mars conjunction. TRUE BML hovered between 18-27 Capricorn.
Mandela was elected President of South Africa 'in the winter of 1993.'
MEAN BML transited from 9-19 Aries (FIRST time) in the 5th house (leadership) during that time, directly opposing natal MEAN BML-Mars.
TRUE BML hovered between 9 Aries - 3 Taurus en retrograde back to 7 Aries during the same period, trining the 9th house Mercury-Saturn(spokesman?) in Leo conjunction and sextiling Jupiter.
Oppression ceased to exist.

MEAN BML = inner reality, manifested in the outer reality 'symbolism' = TRUE BML ?
Regards,
Friesiangal.

Thankyou for all that work!!
Something is tweaking at me here ~ the idea that "mean" or average BML (i.e. the socially ideal blended 'Eve'model of woman's reality) has been held so dearly in our actual human outer reality that "true" BML (theprimal, non-idealised woman) remains a "castaway" at the "castout" or apogee point in our human psyche until
the imprisonment becomes untenable for all concerned and we are forced to free True BML at last before she
disappears entirely from our human consciousness.
I say ~ Ignore true BML at your own peril, Eve.
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #131 - on: 13.09.2007 at 08:33 [UT+1] »[quote author=Myrios ]Quote:
Quote:

Posts: 6820
Gender:[quote Friesiangal................]

Something is tweaking at me here ~ the idea that "mean" or average BML (i.e. the socially ideal blended 'Eve' model of woman's reality)
has been held so dearly in our actual human outer reality that "true" BML (the primal, non-idealised woman) remains a "castaway" at the"castout" or apogee point in our human psyche until the imprisonment becomes untenable for all concerned and we are forced to free True
BML at last before she disappears entirely from our human consciousness.
I say ~ Ignore true BML at your own peril, Eve.

My own tweaking is that, in terms of myth, I associate the Moon with Eve and BML with 'feminine of nature'(i.e. hidden feeling), yet which is not necessarily representative of a female.
Regards,
Friesiangal
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MCEros

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #132 - on: 13.09.2007 at 10:11 [UT+1] »I've settled on Mean BML for some time now. My understanding is, "True" BML is not so true mathematicallyanyway. That said, Moon centered astrologer may wish to refine or delve deeper into Mean/True Apogee/Perigee
symbolism and that's equally cool. Mean BML also moves relatively slow so I give it an orb of 1.5 plus minus.
In the context of BML/Apogee, Moon is symbolically Eve. I see Apogee/Black Moon as a symbol of unrealised"complete" creative potential within males and females, and I'm fine with Lilith being called "Black". Being black
does not necessarily mean the Lights or the personals are not aware of her existence, unless she's repressed orignored, or for some reasons totally sublimated for this particular life trip. The energy potentail is creative andPosts: 1021
Gender:therefore potentially "sexual", but not in the overt Mars Venus sense, more like a "stored energy of a feminineSun". Apogee/black Moon is not "inherently chaotic and destructive", though I can understand why some findthe concept of BML threatening. In fact I perceive BML as far less intimidating than Pluto, more healing
potential than Chiron.
BML's relationship (and NON-relationship) with Sun, Moon, Nodes are particularly significant. That followed by
how the others, Chiron included, are "in touch" with BML. Natal awareness of BML "total creative potential" is agood thing. How one handles that awareness or that potential is another story. BML is not the only aspect tointuit a particular chart's energy polar (dis)integration, or "complete creative potential", but I've found it very
useful as an immediate big picture. I definitely read BML differently for the sexes.
Perigee "in Earth's face" Moons do trigger storms, floods and earthquakes. Sounds quite like severe
Pluto/Scorpio Full Moon? Do Apogee conjunct Moon have the same or opposite effect?

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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #133 - on: 13.09.2007 at 18:54 [UT+1] »Quote from McEros on 13.09.2007 at 10:11 [UT+1]:
I've settled on Mean BML for some time now. My understanding is, "True" BML is not so true mathematically anyway. That said, Moon
centered astrologer may wish to refine or delve deeper into Mean/True Apogee/Perigee symbolism and that's equally cool. Mean BML also
moves relatively slow so I give it an orb of 1.5 plus minus.
In the context of BML/Apogee, Moon is symbolically Eve. I see Apogee/Black Moon as a symbol of unrealised "complete" creative potential
within males and females, and I'm fine with Lilith being called "Black". Being black does not necessarily mean theLights or the personals are not aware of her existence, unless she's repressed or ignored, or forsome reasons totally sublimated for this particular life trip. The energy potentail is creative and therefore
potentially "sexual", but not in the overt Mars Venus sense, more like a "stored energy of a feminine Sun". Apogee/black
Moon is not "inherently chaotic and destructive", though I can understand why some find the concept of BML threatening. In fact I perceive
BML as far less intimidating than Pluto, more healing potential than Chiron.
BML's relationship (and NON-relationship) with Sun, Moon, Nodes are particularly significant. That followed by how the others, Chiron
included, are "in touch" with BML. Natal awareness of BML "total creative potential" is a good thing. How one handles that awareness orthat potential is another story. BML is not the only aspect to intuit a particular chart's energy polar (dis)integration, or "complete creative
potential", but I've found it very useful as an immediate big picture. I definitely read BML differently for thesexes.
Perigee "in Earth's face" Moons do trigger storms, floods and earthquakes. Sounds quite like severe Pluto/Scorpio Full Moon? Do
Apogee conjunct Moon have the same or opposite effect?

I've hilighted some symbolism that truly resonates with my own actualindividual experience and thankyou forthis analysis McEros.
The point I am belaboring to make is that the Moon is not only a personal light she is also (like Sun) a
COLLECTIVE symbol ~ as you say, she represents something in both male and female psyche which is to be(necessarily I would add) interpreted differently ~ HOWEVER ~ we all KNOW that the MOON as an INHERENTLY
feminine symbol is not only largely misunderstood in FACT but also misrepresented SYMBOLICALLY ~ i.e. she
has been deliberately subjugated to the Sun's Glory and described as a Mere Reflection of HIM ~ I still cannot
get anyone to describe the Moon or her Lunar action on the Planet(s) in any terms of clear understanding inActual Virtual Reality so to speak.
N.B. for example with respect to storms, earthquakes, Tsunami and such ~ the newest Indonesian Tsunami(triggered by an undersea quake on the Pacific Rim) occurred on the Dark Moon (i.e. No Moon) and Moon's
Apogee is still 48 hours away, not at Perigee at all!!!
By the way, I am still unable to locate the new moon sliver this morning, though by now she should be clear
and high in the blue sky overhead.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Jupiter's
Daughter« Reply #134 - on: 13.09.2007 at 19:03 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from Don M on 10.09.2007 at 09:10 [UT+1]:
Blanca - at the point of balance between the Sun and the Black Moon, both surrender their essential natures and something new canemerge. the scorpion might actually refrain from stinging the frog, both get safely to the other shore - and then he might even turnaround kiss the frog and turn into a prince or some such thing....... its a very special place.

Posts: 1767

Don - I find this interesting - what is this point of balance? is it the midpoint, are you referring to BML itself, or
are you jsut being poetic?
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #135 - on: 13.09.2007 at 19:26 [UT+1] »I don't propose to answer for Don M ~ but since my BML and Osc. Lunar Apogee are tied together in Pisces infull opposition to my Virgo Sun I suspect I may speak relevantly to both a poetic and an actual knowledge ofthis "surrendering of essential natures" and my swim to shore at this "special place" has already occurred ~ Ialso note that I am enjoying a simultaneous THIRD return of Saturn to my Natal First House ~ Virgo.
Since I happen to have been born with Regulus near my Ascendant, my birthchart appears to speak quite
clearly of the clockworks aspects of astrology. Perhaps explaining my fascination with Lilith and herinterpretations.
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Don M
Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #136 - on: 14.09.2007 at 02:26 [UT+1] »Jupiter's Daughter, to make it real, the Black Moon can be a gaping wound within the psyche - a highly
charged emotional point of over reaction or avoidance that equates to self castration. for me, it did not heal
thru self knowledge , insight, or any sort of direct effort of consciousness. my experience has been that thecenter of individuality - the Sun - was powerless to effect the healing of the Black Moon wound.
Posts: 282
Gender:it is a return - a regression - to the emotional place within self that relates to the depth of the Black Moon
wounding and castration - and then re-experiencing that place with a total abandon - a total surrender of effort
to protect or defend self - that elicited an inner response of healing from the Black Moon. and i haveexperienced a very real, palpable thrust from what i can only conclude was the Black Moon that came in right atthat point of surrender. so yes - the Sun surrenders and the Black Moon ceases to be a void ,and the innocence and wholeness follows after that reclaiming of the disowned part ......
like Blanca, i suspect that the Sun and the Black Moon are polar opposites. for me however, where the Sun
figures in the process of healing Black Moon issues is a question to be further explored.
at this point, i do not relate the balance to the midpoint between the two - but that sure might be somethingworth investigating. i think it is an overall perspective on the relationship between the Solar and Lunar facets ofan individual chart that will supply some notion of where the balancing point might reside.
but it seems the Black Moon really asks for our passion - our suffering - instead of insight or understanding, so
please take that into consideration.......
i have the ruler of the Sun and Saturn - Mercury in Libra - in the 12 th house conjunct Neptune and the SN in
opposition to the Mean Black Moon on the NN. the linkage for me between the Sun and the Black Moon is thru
the nodal contact with the Sun's ruler. i went thru the regression mentioned above right when both thetransiting Mean and the True Black Moon were moving past my SN thru the 12 th house earlier this year.
Don

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MCEros

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #137 - on: 14.09.2007 at 17:17 [UT+1] »Myrios - glad you find some resonance there. As to Apogee/Perigee Moon not having to do with recent quakes
or hurricanes, sure. The eclipse season alone could contribute to that, or recent Jupiter Mars opposition, or
helio Jupiter Earth relation etc, the usual myriad planetary influences... But I'd stick to BML here...
This season I've been bumping into BML oppose Suns among astrologers/enthusiasts who seem to be "strongly
into" BML. One in real life. At least two on this thread so far. Marc Bériault who wrote a (French) book on
Apogee Lilith also has his Sun oppose Dsc BML.
Posts: 1021
Gender:My Pisces rising seemingly softie artistic sister, who has Aqua Sun oppose Leo BML, is unbending about having
total control over the men in her life. Cher, also has Sun oppose BML. And by control, I don't mean the bossy
or oppressive or censorship type control, but simply, being the all-powerful, independent female half of therelationship, and having far more worldly power than the male other half. It takes either an extremely malleble
or an emotional strong (developed Lunar) man to take on such uncompromising females, I believe.
Retrospective view: I've become highly interested in BML when BML transited my SN, and come to clear
comprehension of that energy when tr.BML oppose natal BML.
Sun conj/opp BML, Moon conj/opp BML, BML on SN/NN, seem to play out differently with men and women. A
man with Pisces Sun trine Moon and BML on NN would fee; far more at home with a self-possessed female thansay a (castration phobia?) man with 7th Cardinal Pluto-Sun-Mars T-square Cancerian BML. In a woman, shewould be likely be passively firm Piscean, who's far more in tune with her Lunar power AND intrinsic Sol worth
than say the woman with a frustrating cardinal BML t-square Sun/Mars...

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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #138 - on: 14.09.2007 at 17:31 [UT+1] »Thankyou McEros.
It's curious to me that BML seems to be errupting in so many psyches recently. Mine emerged in full swing
with a Uranian transit in May 2004 (3 years ago) and someone just mentioned that Lilith emerged into birth for
her two years ago.
Is Lilith addressing the Collective Psyche?
Hmmm.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #139 - on: 14.09.2007 at 17:37 [UT+1] »Quote from McEros on 14.09.2007 at 17:17 [UT+1]:
Myrios - glad you find some resonance there. As to Apogee/Perigee Moon not having to do with recent quakes

or hurricanes, sure. The eclipse season alone could contribute to that, or recent Jupiter Mars opposition, or helio Jupiter Earthrelation etc, the usual myriad planetary influences... But I'd stick to BML here...
This season I've been bumping into BML oppose Suns among astrologers/enthusiasts who seem to be "strongly into" BML. One in real life.
At least two on this thread so far. Marc Bériault who wrote a (French) book on Apogee Lilith also has his Sun oppose Dsc BML.
My Pisces rising seemingly softie artistic sister, who has Aqua Sun oppose Leo BML, is unbending about having total control over the men
in her life. Cher, also has Sun oppose BML. And by control, I don't mean the bossy or oppressive or censorship type control, but simply,
being the all-powerful, independent female half of the relationship, and having far more worldly power than the male other half. It takes
either an extremely malleble or an emotional strong (developed Lunar) man to take on such uncompromising females, I believe.
Retrospective view: I've become highly interested in BML when BML transited my SN, and come to clear comprehension of that energy
when tr.BML oppose natal BML.
Sun conj/opp BML, Moon conj/opp BML, BML on SN/NN, seem to play out differently with men and women. A man with Pisces Sun trine
Moon and BML on NN would fee; far more at home with a self-possessed female than say a (castration phobia?) man with 7th Cardinal
Pluto-Sun-Mars T-square Cancerian BML. In a woman, she would be likely be passively firm Piscean, who's far more in tune with her Lunar
power AND intrinsic Sol worth than say the woman with a frustrating cardinal BML t-square Sun/Mars...

McEros ~ I wasn't saying that the Moon had no influence on this second Indonesian Tsunami ~ I was rather
saying the opposite ~ but that it occurred near Apogee not Perigee as was indicated by someone earlier ~ notsure if it was you?
I believe the moon affects all liquids does it not.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #140 - on: 14.09.2007 at 20:30 [UT+1] »Quote from McEros on 13.09.2007 at 10:11 [UT+1]:
I've settled on Mean BML for some time now. My understanding is, "True" BML is not so true mathematically anyway.

The word "true" added to the Black Moon is only a convention used to distinguish it from the "mean", and is
not meant in the sense of "true vs false".
I think our choice should not be made on the basis of whether it is "true" or not, but on an understanding of
the astronomical meaning of the "instantaneous keplerian orbits" of which it is a part.
Some astrologers (like Alois Treindl and Dieter Koch of Astrodienst) don't see much meaning in the use of
instantaneous orbital elements such as the "true" Nodes and the "true" Black Moon, although personally, I havenever found the reasons given for their disqualification convincing.
Quote:
I definitely read BML differently for the sexes.

I think this is an important point, as was brought forward by Don.
Quote:
Perigee "in Earth's face" Moons do trigger storms, floods and earthquakes. Sounds quite like severe Pluto/Scorpio Full Moon? Do Apogee
conjunct Moon have the same or opposite effect?

Obviously an opposition is not "the reverse" of a conjunction, and that's why the whole issue of "Priapus" --an
opposition to the Black Moon-- is to me senseless or redundant.
The so-called "Sibley" chart of the U.S. --probably the most popular of all the possible alternatives-- has theMoon in exact conjunction with the true Black Moon, i.e., Moon exactly at apogee.
B.
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Don M

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #141 - on: 15.09.2007 at 14:16 [UT+1] »in responding to this thread i have come to an awareness of the realities of my personal Black Moon
experiences as a male - basically - my Solar individuality seems to be powerless to heal and access the depth of
the Black Moon wound/archetype. for me it has been a regression - a surrender and return to an emotional
point that connects me to the Black Moon......
Posts: 282
Gender:what i am curious about - is that a reality for females as well ? or is the Black Moon actually a conduit into thefulfillment and actualization of your solar individualities ? have any of the females responding here experienced
the Black Moon as a point of regression and dissolution that does not respond to and support Solar
individuality ?
are there any males out there who have experienced the Black Moon as an allay in individuation ? any maleswith Sun/Black Moon contacts - oppositions or conjunctions - how does it play for you ?
my basic question here - are we, male and female, the same around the dynamic of the Sun and the Black
Moon, or are we different?

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Jupiter's

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Daughter« Reply #142 - on: 15.09.2007 at 17:38 [UT+1] »Membermy big transits to mean BML corresponded with big Arts events for me - periods of creative fruition andrecognition - so I am wondering about the whole wounding thing. though perhaps I have had a more positive
relationshiop to BML due to creative pursuits and therefore it represents a flowering for me.

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #143 - on: 15.09.2007 at 18:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Don M on 15.09.2007 at 14:16 [UT+1]:
in responding to this thread i have come to an awareness of the realities of my personal Black Moon experiences as amale - basically - my Solar individuality seems to be powerless to heal and access the depth of the Black Moon wound/archetype. forme it has been a regression - a surrender and return to an emotional point that connects me to the Black Moon......
what i am curious about - is that a reality for females as well ? or is the Black Moon actually a conduit into thefulfillment and actualization of your solar individualities ? have any of the females responding here experienced theBlack Moon as a point of regression and dissolution that does not respond to and support Solar individuality ?
are there any males out there who have experienced the Black Moon as an allay in individuation ? any males with Sun/Black Moon
contacts - oppositions or conjunctions - how does it play for you ?
my basic question here - are we, male and female, the same around the dynamic of the Sun and theBlack Moon, or are we different?

Don in my personal observation the emotional dynamic is generally suppressed in men by Social mores as amatter of course ~ (the strong, tough, silent, soldier ideal) but my contention is that we stand in great dangerof suppressing emotion in humanity as a whole because we are suppressing the feminine aspects or Lunar
qualities in everyone now, not just in men, but in women and even children.
In order to succeed in the Social System today you must take on only those qualities prescribed by thehistorically supreme nature of the Male Sun. That is why (for me) it is so important to revive the symbolism of
the Moon as feminine principle in the heavens ~ so that we can balance these vital and equally significant
energies within the human psyche, heart, and mind before going too much further down the road to perdition.
Otherwise we are headed for monocultural robotism and dead inner lives ~ completely governed externally byan increasingly dehumanised system.
And like Jupiter's Daughter, my confrontation between Sun and Moon (via BML's natal opposition) has brought
about a full creative flowering and fruition through the dynamic of the opposition ~ in other words the
opposition is what generates the energy which the native then applies or fails to apply in a positive manifest
outcome.
Men must learn to weep again and know they will not be ridiculed or cast out for their feminine qualities, while
women need to know that they will not be slandered and disdained, or lilithized if you will, simply because they
possess great inner strengths attributed formerly only to the masculinized Sun/Hero.

Women need Strong Women Heroes and so do men ~ an ironic paradox of course ~ for while we are done withthe old feminine models of milquetoast virgins mothers and crones, we are also not that comfortable withbeing pressed into the currently rampant Beauty Queen model ~ male or female.
Thankyou for bringing this forward.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #144 - on: 15.09.2007 at 18:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 14.09.2007 at 20:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from McEros on 13.09.2007 at 10:11 [UT+1]:
I've settled on Mean BML for some time now. My understanding is, "True" BML is not so true mathematically anyway.
The word "true" added to the Black Moon is only a convention used to distinguish it from the "mean", and is not meant in the sense of"true vs false".
I think our choice should not be made on the basis of whether it is "true" or not, but on an understanding of the astronomical meaning of
the "instantaneous keplerian orbits" of which it is a part.
Some astrologers (like Alois Treindl and Dieter Koch of Astrodienst) don't see much meaning in the use of instantaneous orbital elements
such as the "true" Nodes and the "true" Black Moon, although personally, I have never found the reasons

given for their disqualification convincing.
Quote:
I definitely read BML differently for the sexes.
I think this is an important point, as was brought forward by Don.
Quote:
Perigee "in Earth's face" Moons do trigger storms, floods and earthquakes. Sounds quite like severe Pluto/Scorpio Full
Moon? Do Apogee conjunct Moon have the same or opposite effect?
Obviously an opposition is not "the reverse" of a conjunction, and that's why the whole issue of "Priapus" --an

opposition to the Black Moon-- is to me senseless or redundant.
The so-called "Sibley" chart of the U.S. --probably the most popular of all the possible
alternatives-- has the Moon in exact conjunction with the true Black Moon, i.e., Moon exactly at
apogee.
B.

Blanca, I resonate with this. That is a fascinating fact about the U.S. Sibley chart in relation to Moon/BML andsince so much else comes into play here far beyond the scope of this topic, I will simply state:
I think there was method in that madness which does not serve us well.
Thanks for bringing the Sibley in. We should all continue to bear it in mind.
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MCErosMember

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #145 - on: 15.09.2007 at 20:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 14.09.2007 at 20:30 [UT+1]:
The so-called "Sibley" chart of the U.S. --probably the most popular of all the possible alternatives-- has the Moon in exact conjunction
with the true Black Moon, i.e., Moon exactly at apogee.

Ah, the "wholed" Black & White Moon in One. lol. I wouldn't use the word "true" if I could given how diluted it
is by now in this ongoing debate. How about, Actual BML. Anyway, speaking of popular choice... I'm no purist,
nor a Moon theorist, I'd gladly adopt the most popular of all the possible, astronomically and mathematically
Posts: 1021
Gender:imperfect Moon point alternatives, Mean Node, Mean Apogee, Mean Perigee. Just being practial, even if Moon isusually not so.
Meanwhile I've osculated a bit more re: what kind of orb to use for such approximated Moony points, and havenow settled on a wider 5 deg +/-.
Myrios - I'm still refining my own BML-Node relation theories re: weather and tides. But yeah Moon influences
all liquids indeed. Tough Cancerian males do cry more freely. My BML can deal with that, even if my Moon acts alittle detached sometimes.
Am all ears of your US Sibley Moon-BML interpretation/s !

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #146 - on: 15.09.2007 at 20:50 [UT+1] »As far as I remember, BML both mean and true in the USA Sibley chart, is in the Ninth house on the Leo/Virgo
cusp, thats nowhere near the Sibley Aquarian Moon in the 3rd, if that is even the chart you want to use for the
US. There is a chart proposed for around 9:30 AM (with historical evidence) on July 4th which does however
put BML in the 1st house of the nation, close to the ascendant.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #147 - on: 15.09.2007 at 21:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 15.09.2007 at 20:50 [UT+1]:
As far as I remember, BML both mean and true in the USA Sibley chart, is in the Ninth house on the Leo/Virgo cusp, thats nowhere near
the Sibley Aquarian Moon in the 3rd...

on checking, I realize that it is an exact opposition and not a conjunction:
Moon = 26,58 Aquarius
apogee = 27,07 Leo (true)
The actual time of the lunar perigee was 22h14m GMT on July 4, 1776, while the Sibley chart is made for about
21h50m GMT. Practically a direct hit.
I really don't know how to interpret this, and would love to see what others have to say about it.
B.
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vertexEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #148 - on: 15.09.2007 at 21:58 [UT+1] »My BML in Pisces is opposite my asteroid Lilith in Virgo. Any thoughts?

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Friesiangal

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #149 - on: 17.09.2007 at 10:56 [UT+1] »[quote author=Don M ]Quote:
in responding to this thread i have come to an awareness of the realities of my personal Black Moon experiences as a male - basically my Solar individuality seems to be powerless to heal and access the depth of the Black Moon wound/archetype. for me it has been a
regression - a surrender and return to an emotional point that connects me to the Black Moon......

Posts: 6820
Gender:Hello again, Don,I have checked back through your posts and you appear to have a BML-Neptune (to Mercury) opposition. With
Neptune in the 12th house, could this not be the instigator of your feelings towards surrender, rather than an
inefficient Sun? A Virgo Sun is about detailed reality of living, isn't it, and your Saturn conjunction to it will
either strengthen or block your ability to live within the confines of what really is against what appears to be.
Of course, there is the ' all reality is only an illusion', and I guess it's question of to which idea you subscribe.
Quote:
what i am curious about - is that a reality for females as well ? or is the Black Moon actually a conduit into the fulfillment andactualization of your solar individualities ? have any of the females responding here experienced the Black Moon as a point of regression
and dissolution that does not respond to and support Solar individuality ?

I don't know if this is the same as what you are referring to, but there is a defininte part of me that I can only
relate to as 'soul experience' that wants its own way even when 'all the signs' say otherwise. When this feelingis particularly obstinate my Taurus Sun sign has to apply itself in a factual and practical way to either make thisdeep feeling see sense and back down to reality, or to follow its guidance and make practical sense of of the
feeling.
Some might say that this is the 'other side' of my solar principle yet, to me, it's astrologically an ongoing
conflict between my BML and Sun.
Since Blanca's posts referring to the inner child experience that can warp the individuality, I have had to hone
my own ideas some. In my own experience I see now that it WAS the child experience still holding the Sun
back from its ability to express itself fully, rather than the Sun expression consciously denying the existence ofthe child experience.
Both sides of the same mirror ?
Regards,
Friesiangal
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Friesiangal
Member« Reply #150 - on: 17.09.2007 at 11:29 [UT+1] »author=Blanca
Quote:The so-called "Sibley" chart of the U.S. --probably the most popular of all the possible alternatives-- has the Moon in exact conjunction
with the true Black Moon, i.e., Moon exactly at apogee .

Posts: 6820
Gender:Quote:
on checking, I realize that it is an exact opposition and not a conjunction:
Moon = 26,58 Aquarius
apogee = 27,07 Leo (true)

McEros:Quote:Am all ears of your US Sibley Moon-BML interpretation/s !

What IS interesting about the Sibley chart, however, is that MEAN BML is on 19*29 Virgo to form a close
conjunction with natal Neptune in the 9th house. The conjunction forms a T-square to 7th house (openenemies) Mars. What could express a useless war because of religious/ ideological convictions more, especially
one in which the so-called 'germ-warfare' (Neptune-Mars) containers were never found to physically exist( BML).

I remember that when ex-dictator Saddam was found ' hidden in his hole in the ground', the transiting JupiterPluto opposition across the Sibley Asc-Desc. axis exactly squared natal MEAN BML, whilst transiting MEAN BML
had crossed the I.C. in Aries to form an exact trine with 8th house natal Mercury, ruler 7th house !
As the A-Team would say, 'I just love it when a plan comes together.'
Friesiangal.

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #151 - on: 18.09.2007 at 14:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 15.09.2007 at 21:48 [UT+1]:
Moon = 26,58 Aquarius
apogee = 27,07 Leo (true)
The actual time of the lunar perigee was 22h14m GMT on July 4, 1776, while the Sibley chart is made for about 21h50m GMT. Practically adirect hit.

Here are a few thoughts:
1-) it is a perfect alignment, so anything having to do with the Moon is inextricably related to the Black Moonor anti-Moon of the event or entity signified by this chart.
2-) the exact moment of perigee, marked by the position of the true Black Moon, is happening right at thatmoment, a moment which the mean Black Moon misses by 22 degrees or the equivalent of about 6 months ofmean Black Moon motion.
3-) the Declaration of Independence (4 Jyly 1776) is a most emotionally-charged and mythical event. The
principles declared in it represent what most Americans BELIEVE their country stands for.
4-) the deliberate and systematic violation of these principles when dealing with weaker nations (e.g., Indians,
Blacks, Central America) has always been a dramatic contradiction or "dark spot".
5-) Black slavery, extermination of Indians, stealing of Indian land, racism, the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny",
the fear of Comunism, the fear of "ilegal aliens" the fear of "terrorists", the punishment of those nations whodare to oppose them, the refusal to acknowledge any evil inside projecting all of it to other --mainly weaker andpoorer-- nations...
6-) ... the denial of all this and the belief that it is exactly the opposite, the denial of their Moon, of their own
poor and vulnerable (e.g. Katrina, health care system), and the promotion of a superficial "world saviour"
image... all this is dramatic and very evident Black Moon stuff.
B.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #152 - on: 18.09.2007 at 19:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 15.09.2007 at 20:50 [UT+1]:
As far as I remember, BML both mean and true in the USA Sibley chart, is in the Ninth house on the Leo/Virgo cusp, thats nowhere near
the Sibley Aquarian Moon in the 3rd, if that is even the chart you want to use for the US. There is a chart proposed for around 9:30 AM(with historical evidence) on July 4th which does however put BML in the 1st house of the nation, close to the ascendant.

Thanks for bringing that in Knoxy.
McEros ~ I am not going to say much more ~ the U.S. Sibley Lilith happens to be right on my own Ascendant~ i.e. the Leo/Virgo cusp line ~ while I note that even in the other chart Knoxy mentions ~ BML is playing a bigrole in the U.S. chart.

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Knoxy143

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #153 - on: 19.09.2007 at 21:05 [UT+1] »Hi Myrios, yes, BML plays a huge role in the early morning chart used for July4th, in fact the transiting Sun on
9/11 was close to both the Ascendant of the chart AND BML. I'll try and find it and post it here.
I mentioned earlier that the singer Enya has true BML exactly conjunct her ascendant. I found an Enya album
titled "Watermark" I used to own and played it to find any Lilithian themes in her lyrics. On the song "Evening
Falls" she sings:"Close to home / I cannot say,
Close to home / feeling so....far away."
This strikes me as a perfect example of BML, the Moon's farthest transit from the Earth.
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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #154 - on: 19.09.2007 at 21:39 [UT+1] »Here is the early morning chart for July 4th, which has historical evidence to verify the time if I remember
correctly. As you can see the transiting Sun was conjunct BML in the 1st on 9/11.
PS: My favoured chart for the USA is still the July 2nd chart with the BmJ. The fear which gripped America
after 9/11 was so unmistakably the dynamics of BmJ at work for any other chart to take precedence.
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USA_-_Early_Morning_July_4th.gif (attachment deleted)

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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #155 - on: 20.09.2007 at 15:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 19.09.2007 at 21:05 [UT+1]:
Hi Myrios, yes, BML plays a huge role in the early morning chart used for July4th, in fact the transiting Sun on 9/11 was close to both the
Ascendant of the chart AND BML. I'll try and find it and post it here.
I mentioned earlier that the singer Enya has true BML exactly conjunct her ascendant. I found an Enya album titled "Watermark" I used toown and played it to find any Lilithian themes in her lyrics. On the song "Evening Falls" she sings:"Close to home / I cannot say,
Close to home / feeling so....far away."
This strikes me as a perfect example of BML, the Moon's farthest transit from the Earth.

Thankyou for that Knoxy. I'm not sure of Enya's significance here, but I own her Paint The Sky With Stars
CD and note that she is taking music/vocals into the realm of a (wordless) Lunar spiritual communication ~ amore feminine feeling of the Truth than masculine rational S.P.E.L.L.*Ling it out with Solar*clear*eye*tie anddeaf*eye*nit*ion ~ so to speak
Which is an epiphany of sorts in itself ~ and one I hope the U.S. brings into manifest reality for & with the restof the world, not in spite of it.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #156 - on: 20.09.2007 at 16:50 [UT+1] »Alchemy ~ operation of the Sun
Astrology ~ Operation of the Moon
Theurgy ~ Operation of the Stars
Interesting distinctions and correspondences to think about here.
CindyLu brought them in to the Magic Roots Thread a while back.
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Dieter Koch

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #157 - on: 21.09.2007 at 08:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Blanca on 14.09.2007 at 20:30 [UT+1]:
The word "true" added to the Black Moon is only a convention used to distinguish it from the "mean", and is not meant in the sense of"true vs false".
I think our choice should not be made on the basis of whether it is "true" or not, but on an understanding of the astronomical meaning of
the "instantaneous keplerian orbits" of which it is a part.
Some astrologers (like Alois Treindl and Dieter Koch of Astrodienst) don't see much meaning in the use of instantaneous orbital elements
such as the "true" Nodes and the "true" Black Moon, although personally, I have never found the reasons given for their disqualification
convincing.

Posts: 225
Gender:

The reasons can be found at:
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm?lang=g#_Toc129145851
I quote the more important paragraphs:"...the osculating lunar apogee (so-called "true Lilith") is a mathematical construct which assumes that the
motion of the moon is a two-body problem. This solution is obviously too simplistic. Although Kepler ellipses
are a good means to describe planetary orbits, they fail with the orbit of the moon, which is strongly perturbed
by the gravitational pull of the sun. This solar perturbation results in gigantic monthly oscillations in theephemeris of the osculating apsides (the amplitude is 30 degrees). These oscillations have to be considered an
artifact of the insufficient model, they do not really show a motion of the apsides.
A more sensible solution seems to be an interpolation between the real passages of the moon through its
apogees and perigees. It turns out that the motions of the lunar perigee and apogee form curves of different
quality and the two points are usually not in opposition to each other. They are more or less opposite points
only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or squares them. The amplitude of theiroscillation about the mean position is 5 degrees for the apogee and 25 degrees for the perigee.
This solution has been called the "interpolated" or "realistic" apogee and perigee by Dieter Koch in his
publications. Juan Revilla prefers to call them the "natural" apogee and perigee.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #158 - on: 21.09.2007 at 08:59 [UT+1] »Charts with mean, osculating ("true"), and interpolated/natural position of Lilith and Priapus can be calculated
at astro.com.
- Goto "Free horoscopes",- "Extended Chart Selection",- activate "Lilith" in the "additional objects list",- below that list, there is an empty field, where you have to enter "h13,h21,h22".
- click on the "show the chart" button
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Dieter Koch

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #159 - on: 21.09.2007 at 09:04 [UT+1] »Or try this link (don't worry, nobody else can see your chart!):http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=1&nho2=2&a
mp;btyp=2&mth=gw&sday=21&smon=9&syr=2007&hsy=-1&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&add=20&ast=h13%

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Knoxy143
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #160 - on: 21.09.2007 at 10:28 [UT+1] »Hello Dieter, thank you so much for all this information!
So, in theory, the Lunar perigree and apogee may reside at roughly the same point in space at a given time?
Alan
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

BlancaEx Member« Reply #161 - on: 21.09.2007 at 21:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Dieter Koch on 21.09.2007 at 08:49 [UT+1]:"...the osculating lunar apogee (so-called "true Lilith") is a mathematical construct...

All of Astrology is a mathematical construct...
Quote:
which assumes that the motion of the moon is a two-body problem. This solution is obviously too simplistic.

In classical planetary theory osculating orbits are calculated by means of a summation of a long series of nbody perturbations, and the same can be done in the case of the Moon when the corresponding lunar theory
exists, so the above statement is incorrect, or only partially true.
In the cases where an osculating orbit is calculated by means of the position and velocity of the object, a
simplified 2-body problem is assumed but this doesn't mean that the motion is assumed to be that "simplistic",
because the position and velocity vectors represent the complete, full model, without any simplification. This is
why osculating orbits are used by astronomers to model the real-life motion of celestial objects, including Earthsatellites.
The words used ("instantaneous" and "osculating") make it obvious that it is not the motion of the orbit (e.g.
the apsides) that an osculating orbit is pretending to represent, but the so-called "starting conditions", awindow or a snapshot in time consisting of a conic section that represents the actual trajectory of a celestial
object at that moment. These words also imply that the real motion of a celestial object is made of anunending series of these "snapshots", each one slighly different from the other.
The osculating orbit is a mathematical / geometrical structure modelled by means of the actual physical forces
giving shape to the body's trajectory at one instant of time. This geometrical structure (the keplerian ellipse)
constantly changes as time passes and the trajectory is slightly modified due to the change in position of theobject and the perturbing forces acting on it, mainly the Earth and Sun in the case of the Moon. At the times
when the Sun pulls stronger, this structure or trajectory modifies its shape (the excentricity of the ellipsechanges) accordingly, and this results in the changing position of the apogee.
Quote:
Although Kepler ellipses are a good means to describe planetary orbits, they fail with the orbit of the moon, which is strongly perturbed by
the gravitational pull of the sun.

This applies only when you define "orbit" as the motion of an object through time, but is irrelevant when
considering instantaneous or osculating orbits, which are a different concept.
Quote:
This solar perturbation results in gigantic monthly oscillations in the ephemeris of the osculating apsides (the amplitude is 30 degrees).

The amplitude of the monthly oscillation is 15 degrees, not 30. The 30-degree variation from the mean value
results from the superposition of other periodic perturbations the most important of which has an amplitude of
9 degrees and a period of 205 days. This 30-degree variation from the mean is not "gigantic", rather, it is theaccurate counterpart of the wiggling and "jumpy" motion of the geocentric Moon and the changes in shape(apsides, excentricity, inclination) that this produces in the instantaneous lunar orbit.
Quote:
These oscillations have to be considered an artifact of the insufficient model, they do not really show a motion of the apsides.

The model is quite sufficient, and that is why it is and has been universally used by astronomers for centuries.
Its purpose is not to represent the motion of the apsides through time, but the changing positions of theapsides as the orbit changes shape due to the action of ALL (n-body, not 2-body!) perturbing forces of themodel.
B.
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Dieter Koch

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Global Moderator« Reply #162 - on: 21.09.2007 at 22:26 [UT+1] »Astrodienst Staff

Hello Blanca,
Quote:The osculating orbit is a mathematical / geometrical structure modelled by means of the actual physical forces giving shape to the body's
trajectory at one instant of time.

I think that is not correct. The body's trajectory at that instant of time is formed by the sum of ALL
gravitational forces that act on our body. But the osculating orbit considers only the gravitational forces
between TWO bodies, in our case the earth and the moon. The current position and speed vectors do NOT
Posts: 225
Gender:contain any forces, even though they are a result of the forces of all bodies. Note that the position and speed
vectors are not sufficient to calculate all parameters that define an orbital ellipse. They are sufficient for thenode and inclination, but in order to calculate the perihelion, eccentricity, and semi-axis you also need thegravitational pull between the two (!) bodies.
I.e. the Kepler ellipse tells you, which orbit the moon would follow if all bodies except the earth and the moon
itself stopped existing right now. This is a simplification, i.e. it is simplistic.
What I am trying to say: The idea that celestial objects move on ellipses, is a model. This model works
relatively well for planets, because there are no strong perturbers that deform the ellipse. But the model does
not work well for the moon, because the lunar orbit is extremely perturbed and deformed by the sun. Ok, I am
starting to repeat my own words. Planetary orbits are more or less ellipses, but the lunar orbit is quite different
from an ellipse, it is a kind of potato.
Quote:
The amplitude of the monthly oscillation is 15 degrees, not 30.

You are right. Thank you for this, I will have to correct it in the Swiss Ephemeris documentation.
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #163 - on: 21.09.2007 at 22:29 [UT+1] »Alan,yes, the different ephemerises of Lilith are always within the same 15 or 20 degrees. Priapus is opposite to
Lilith.
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MyriosEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #164 - on: 22.09.2007 at 18:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 21.09.2007 at 10:28 [UT+1]:
Hello Dieter, thank you so much for all this information!
So, in theory, the Lunar perigree and apogee may reside at roughly the same point in space at a given time?
Alan~ So Priapus is still 'opposite' Lilith ~ both still quite nebulous in meaning ~ but since She/Moon doesn't fit
tightly into an artificial mathematical construct ~ she is discarded from the godly pantheon by French
Astrologers to become known hitherto ~ as someone on this Forum once noted ~ as "flavor of the month"?
~ Interesting that Priapus and Lilith end up together (to*get*her) in the roughly same place anyway at somepoint or other which we can never quite mathematically determine.
That's still my understanding.
And we can NOT divorce any of this, IMO, from the context of Moon/BML/Lilith as relevant psychologicalsymbols or operatives in the pantheon of human 'gods' ~ as someone recently said on another thread, weshould not mess with the gods.
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Knoxy143

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Ex Member« Reply #165 - on: 27.09.2007 at 10:28 [UT+1] »Hi Myrios,
I just mentioned Enya as I think with true BML on her ascendant, her story exemplifies Lilith quite well: sheleft her family's very successful Celtic music group to pursue her own solo career, where she performs all her
own instrumentation and sings all the vocals herself. I think this is a strong example of Lilith "carving" analmost extreme identify free from others, even her family.
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Knoxy
Ex Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #166 - on: 06.04.2008 at 17:12 [UT+1] »Another recent very public display of Lilith at work is the bitter divorce of Paul McCartney and Heather Mills.
McCartney has both mean and true lilith conjunct his AmFmMC, which was recently activated as the EnJ
transit lined up right on this aspect. McCartney has said before he admires strong-minded women and its
interesting that in the divorce proceedings Mills seemed to play the part of the "wronged woman" almost to theline. Asking for £125M in the divorce settlement, she made a round of very angry TV appearances for which
she was ridiculed in the media and then threw water over McCartney's lawyer in a courtroom.
Just thought this very obvious example of Lilith at work was worth noting.
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Matrika Matters

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #167 - on: 25.04.2012 at 07:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Alois on 22.08.2007 at 12:25 [UT+1]:
Quote:..., I think your original posting (top of thread) is the cause of much confusion.

Posts: 7405
The articles you linked refer to a purely fictious imaginary object, claimed to have been observed by Waldemath in the
19th century.
See also http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm#_Toc129145869
Lilith = Lunar Apogee however is a clearly defined point of the Lunar orbit, and very popular in French astrology
throughout the 20th century. It is also popular in Germany and Switzerland since the late 1980ies, when the first books
about it were published.

If anyone says Lilith in the context of European astrology (Astrodienst and astro.com
belong to this context) then it means Lunar Apogee, and nothing else.
I suggest we keep it like this on this forum. If you want to refer to any other object, please do not call it Lilith.

Happy to comply however, I am still (belatedly) trying to clarify for myself the conflicting information all overthe forum. How do I get the Lilith=lunar apogee...which is it in the menu?
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Matrika Matters
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #168 - on: 25.04.2012 at 08:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Knoxy143 on 28.08.2007 at 19:11 [UT+1]:...

h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'...

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So, which is the Lilith Alois refers to. Is it the h13 referred to by knoxy?
Is it the drop down Lilith in the menu?
Is it theM above this window that I can insert as in this sentence?

I realize this is too basic for most of you but I am still trying to define the "what"you are talking about.
It seems to me there are diverging points with interchanging names discussed (without a clear definition or
agreement)...all through the forum.
There seem to be so many lunar apogees I don't know which one Alois refers to.
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PhoebeEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #169 - on: 25.04.2012 at 11:23 [UT+1] »Quote from Matrika on 25.04.2012 at 08:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Knoxy143 on 28.08.2007 at 19:11 [UT+1]:...

h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'...

So, which is the Lilith Alois refers to. Is it the h13 referred to by knoxy?
Is it the drop down Lilith in the menu?
Is it theM above this window that I can insert as in this sentence?

I realize this is too basic for most of you but I am still trying to define the "what"you are talking about.
It seems to me there are diverging points with interchanging names discussed (without a clear definition or agreement)...all through theforum.
There seem to be so many lunar apogees I don't know which one Alois refers to.

The 'True' Black Moon is also the osc. (osculating)
The Lilith in the drop down menu is the Mean Black Moon Lilith - h21 - which goes with the glyph M
You add h13 to get the Osculating (True) Black Moon.
Some interesting posts in this thread by Blanca
Page 5 #96
Page 6 #116
Page 7 #121
I get what Blanca says about the freeing the archetype of Lilith from the Black Moon.
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Matrika Matters
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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #170 - on: 25.04.2012 at 12:05 [UT+1] »Thanks Phoebe.

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alice bEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #171 - on: 25.04.2012 at 16:33 [UT+1] »This was a really good thread on Lilith; I could actually understand two thirds of it. I dare someone to sum up
what they think the enclosure, corridor of the Mean Black Lilith and Oscillating Lilith is suppose to represent. Is
it safe to presume that a transiting planet to this locationis going to be set "free" or unbridled by the Lilith
forces?

The article links were excellent on this thread!

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cloverMember

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #172 - on: 25.04.2012 at 17:25 [UT+1] »I'm going to have to go back and go through the links since I've only just skimmed the thread right now. Thiscaught my eye since I have solar arc BML conjuncting my Ascendant and Transiting True Black Moon about toalso land on my Ascendant. Rarrrr.

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Anita

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #173 - on: 25.04.2012 at 20:20 [UT+1] »Quote from alice b on 25.04.2012 at 16:33 [UT+1]:
This was a really good thread on Lilith; I could actually understand two thirds of it. I dare someone to sum up what they think theenclosure, corridor of the Mean Black Lilith and Oscillating Lilith is suppose to represent. Is it safe to presume that a transiting planet tothis locationis going to be set "free" or unbridled by the Lilith forces?

Posts: 2130
Gender:

The article links were excellent on this thread!

Why don't you take a turn at it, alice? I liked your post when you talked about having your NN/SN axis in the
5th/11th houses. I found it helpful to read your perspective.
Thanks,Anita.

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AnitaRe: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH

Member« Reply #174 - on: 25.04.2012 at 21:28 [UT+1] »Thanks for reviving this thread, Matrika.
There is some great information here. I am particularly grateful for the distinctions made by the male posters

Posts: 2130
Gender:about their experiences and the acknowledgement that the genders may in fact have experiences of Black Moon
Lilith that are very different from the opposite gender.
Thanks,Anita.

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Anita

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Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #175 - on: 25.04.2012 at 21:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Phoebe on 25.04.2012 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
The Lilith in the drop down menu is the Mean Black Moon Lilith - h21 - which goes with the glyph

Posts: 2130
Gender:M

Actually, part of this statement is right, the Lilith in the drop down menu is the mean Black Moon Lilith, yes.
And mean Black Moon Lilith gives you the glyph M.
But h21 is the interpolated Lilith (i) which is different from the mean Black Moon Lilith.
If you look at the documentation of the Swiss Ephemeris:
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm#_Toc283733479
Section 2.2.1 gives a description for the calculation of mean Black Moon Lilith and Section 2.2.4 gives a
description for the calculation of interpolated Black Moon Lilith. I haven't spent time with interpolated Black
Moon Lilith, but my point is that they are different and h21 gives you the interpolated Black Moon Lilith.
Thanks,Anita.

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PhoebeEx Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #176 - on: 26.04.2012 at 00:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Anita on 25.04.2012 at 21:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from Phoebe on 25.04.2012 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
The Lilith in the drop down menu is the Mean Black Moon Lilith - h21 - which goes with the glyph

M

Actually, part of this statement is right, the Lilith in the drop down menu is the mean Black Moon Lilith, yes. And mean Black Moon Lilith
gives you the glyphM.

But h21 is the interpolated Lilith (i) which is different from the mean Black Moon Lilith.
If you look at the documentation of the Swiss Ephemeris: http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph.htm#_Toc283733479
Section 2.2.1 gives a description for the calculation of mean Black Moon Lilith and Section 2.2.4 gives a description for the calculation ofinterpolated Black Moon Lilith. I haven't spent time with interpolated Black Moon Lilith, but my point is that they are different and h21
gives you the interpolated Black Moon Lilith. Thanks, Anita.

And so they are as this chart demonstrates.
h21 Lilith (i)Sorry about that Matrika, didn't mean to give you a bum steer there.

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astro_24gw_20_phar_lap_2012425_ho.83343.61656.gif(attachment deleted)
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Matrika Matters

Member

Re: LUNAR APOGEE OR BLACK MOON LILITH« Reply #177 - on: 26.04.2012 at 03:53 [UT+1] »Aaaarghhhh!
The lack of clarity around this is unbelievable.
Thanks Phoebe, I understand it was unintentional
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