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24.01.2023 at 19:44 [UT]

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Who are the sceptics? (Read 1658 times)

Karen Roland
MemberWho are the sceptics?
« on: 11.08.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1] »Just an interesting general observation
I have been interested in spirituality for a long time now (and I would include astrology under this heading,because although factual and stuff it still requires an element of faith) and I am generally very inquisitive andopen about this. However I do find that when I meet certain people (read: mostly dates) I instinctly don't
volunteer this info or if I do, I downplay it slightly.
These people invariably turn out to be sceptics. Now this may just be perculiar to me... as I have dated mostly

b and aaries men and they have ALL been of the 'astrology is a load of mumbo-jumbo' vareity. Is that a coPosts: 345
Gender:incidence? Or is there something in this?
Who do you find to be the sceptics?

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #1 - on: 11.08.2009 at 11:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1]:
Just an interesting general observation
I have been interested in spirituality for a long time now (and I would include astrology under this heading, because although factual andstuff it still requires an element of faith) and I am generally very inquisitive and open about this. However I do find that when I meetcertain people (read: mostly dates) I instinctly don't volunteer this info or if I do, I downplay it slightly.

baThese people invariably turn out to be sceptics. Now this may just be perculiar to me... as I have dated mostly
andaries men andthey have ALL been of the 'astrology is a load of mumbo-jumbo' vareity. Is that a co-incidence? Or is there something in this?
Who do you find to be the sceptics?

I don't think Sun in Taurus or Sun in Aries has much to do with it. You will find a good number of both among
practicing astrologers. It is a simple fact that most people are skeptical of astrology, and many others will playdevil's advocate in an attempt to maneuver you into providing some astrological effort free of charge. I say,keep it to yourself when in doubt; skeptics are frequently hostile (thus not so detached and logical as theypretend).
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TorgnyEx Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #2 - on: 11.08.2009 at 11:50 [UT+1] »I don't think it has to do with Sun-signs, although the element of earth may sometimes make people morematerialistic. More likely Saturn, or men in general who are not open for new ideas. Is there something in yourchart that attracts these men?
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Lindac7

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #3 - on: 11.08.2009 at 12:04 [UT+1] »I don't think there's anything specific to the particular men that Karen is referring to. My experience has been
the same as hers, and I've been on dozens of dates with dozens of men over the past 30 years or so. I just try
not to mention it, unless it appears we have some sort of connection - then if we do, I'll ask for birth data so I
can do their chart and check our synastry.
If they want to know why, I tell them - it's a test to see if they are closed-minded to the whole thing, or at least
willing to listen or at bare minimum, put up with it. A lot of people want a chart reading, of course, so I dowhat I can, but I'm limited in my ability there.
I've found that the vast majority of men think astrology is mumbo-jumbo, and they can and do look down on
Posts: 2029
Gender:women who believe in it. In their minds, it would be equivalent to meeting a woman who reads only tabloids
and has no knowledge of world events, and is therefore incapable of holding an intelligent conversation about
them. I would guess that men who are involved in astrology probably have an easier time of finding
acceptance from the women they meet.
It is very definitely a topic to be addressed carefully when first meeting someone because this happens MOST of
the time, and if you really like someone and don't want to blow it, it's best to put off the discussion to later let them get to know you better first and find out you're not just a nutty fruity flake.

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loulouazMember

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #4 - on: 11.08.2009 at 12:17 [UT+1] »Hello Karen,saying that the men you have been dating are mostly b or a sun signs is comparitive to saying that they aremostly from the countries Japan or Sweden - in other words it is to much of a generalisation.
Posts: 1185
Gender:

You just need to start dating different 'types' of a & b guys with different type of birth charts to the guys you
have been dating up to now.
IMHO a make some of the best astrologers & come to that psychologists, out of everyone,but then I'mslightly biased being A a myself
We rule the head you know

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MingX

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #5 - on: 11.08.2009 at 12:24 [UT+1] »I've got to say, that when it comes to A Signs, b are just, I think, too materialistic just to even believe in thisload of bullshit (Or so my friends says.. Thank heavens he's my friend or else he'll start calling me "gay", But I
don't give a crap 'cause I scream back..)Sun signs are very basic, I used to think that Sun signs ruled the whole of astrology; then I discovered more..
However that's just based on Sun signs... I don't believe, for example an aB (Me) wouldn't be "sceptical"
enough to believe in astrology/have their hobbies in astrology!
Though.. b... I still believe they're too..stable.. But you guys are the best singers (damn you ruling the throat!
)
But then again, kA here (It's the astrology sign!

) and guaranteed wierdness..

If we were to classify signs as "sceptical" or not, I'd put basically kl maybe as the "Sceptical" ones
Everyone else just stand back
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #6 - on: 11.08.2009 at 12:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Lindac7 on 11.08.2009 at 12:04 [UT+1]:
I don't think there's anything specific to the particular men that Karen is referring to. My experience has been the same as hers, and I've
been on dozens of dates with dozens of men over the past 30 years or so. I just try not to mention it, unless it appears we have some sortof connection - then if we do, I'll ask for birth data so I can do their chart and check our synastry.
If they want to know why, I tell them - it's a test to see if they are closed-minded to the whole thing, or at least willing to listen or atbare minimum, put up with it. A lot of people want a chart reading, of course, so I do what I can, but I'm limited in my ability there.
I've found that the vast majority of men think astrology is mumbo-jumbo, and they can and do look down on women who believe in it. In
their minds, it would be equivalent to meeting a woman who reads only tabloids and has no knowledge of world events, and is therefore
incapable of holding an intelligent conversation about them. I would guess that men who are involved in astrology probably have an easiertime of finding acceptance from the women they meet.
It is very definitely a topic to be addressed carefully when first meeting someone because this happens MOST of the time, and if you
really like someone and don't want to blow it, it's best to put off the discussion to later - let them get to know you better first and findout you're not just a nutty fruity flake.

I think you are right. Women, as a rule, are more open and more interested in astrology, so much so that it isconsidered an exclusively female interest by many men, particularly skeptics. Most men are skeptical of
astrology, and most women are at least open to discussion regarding astrology. I had no problem finding dates
who were friendly to the idea.
I started as a skeptic; I was very skeptical.
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Chaos

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #7 - on: 11.08.2009 at 12:58 [UT+1] »May be we ought to look @ C signs and aspects to that planet...
Who I think are sceptics... bcfjk
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #8 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Chaos on 11.08.2009 at 12:58 [UT+1]:
May be we ought to look @Who I think are sceptics...

C signs and aspects to that planet...

bcfjk

Good point. I find Mercury/Saturn is often skeptical, but most especially Mars/Mercury/Saturn.
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Lindac7

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #9 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:06 [UT+1] »Nobody's more skeptical (in general) than a Scorpio.
Come on . . . they're the poster people for being suspicious/skeptical.

Posts: 2029
Gender:Back to top

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Chaos
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #10 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Lindac7 on 11.08.2009 at 13:06 [UT+1]:
Nobody's more skeptical (in general) than a Scorpio.
Come on . . . they're the poster people for being suspicious/skeptical.

I would see them more as paranoid...
Bax
I have CpG, and i'm spectical, but not extremely
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Evolving

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #11 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:15 [UT+1] »Scorpio (me: hB) may be MORE skeptical with people vs. astrology. Water signs are more flexible in the notso main stream.
Hard to convince a g, "puts them in a box." Just the facts, jack!
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Karen Roland
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #12 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 12:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lindac7 on 11.08.2009 at 12:04 [UT+1]:
I don't think there's anything specific to the particular men that Karen is referring to. My experience has been the same ashers, and I've been on dozens of dates with dozens of men over the past 30 years or so. I just try not to mention it, unless
it appears we have some sort of connection - then if we do, I'll ask for birth data so I can do their chart and check our
synastry.
If they want to know why, I tell them - it's a test to see if they are closed-minded to the whole thing, or at least willing tolisten or at bare minimum, put up with it. A lot of people want a chart reading, of course, so I do what I can, but I'mlimited in my ability there.

Posts: 345
Gender:I've found that the vast majority of men think astrology is mumbo-jumbo, and they can and do look down on women who
believe in it. In their minds, it would be equivalent to meeting a woman who reads only tabloids and has no knowledge ofworld events, and is therefore incapable of holding an intelligent conversation about them. I would guess that men who are
involved in astrology probably have an easier time of finding acceptance from the women they meet.
It is very definitely a topic to be addressed carefully when first meeting someone because this happens MOST of the time,and if you really like someone and don't want to blow it, it's best to put off the discussion to later - let them get to know
you better first and find out you're not just a nutty fruity flake.

I think you are right. Women, as a rule, are more open and more interested in astrology, so much so that it isconsidered an exclusively female interest by many men, particularly skeptics. Most men are skeptical of astrology, and most women are
at least open to discussion regarding astrology. I had no problem finding dates who were friendly to the idea.
I started as a skeptic; I was very skeptical.

Interesting! I work in an all female office and everyone here finds astrology facinating.
I realise that A in b ora was too simplistic and I shall have a look at my 'known-sceptics' charts and look for
the Saturn connection.
I've never dated a scorpio so I can't comment on that. It does FEEL like there's a connection but that may justhave a bearing on the men I choose to date.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #13 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1] »I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they are open to feelings and mystery.
If it comes to signs, then Air and Earth are more skeptical because they want facts and demonstrations. They
are less impressed with opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.
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Karen Roland
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #14 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:26 [UT+1] »It's striking that we tend to wear other faiths on our sleve and other display religious symbolism but I hide mylove of astrology. I'd never really thought about this before and as I said previously, I tend to do so almost
instinctively

Posts: 345
Gender:Back to top
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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #15 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:38 [UT+1] »An astroogical enthusiast who loses their 'scepticism' might be have lost a few other 'intelligent'dispositions...............
A challenge for Pisceans..''I believe'..............or Sag 'I know'..........

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #16 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:41 [UT+1] »Faith is not always good, and there is nothing inherently wrong with skepticism. Science came to the fore withthe advent of the Age of Enlightenment hundreds of years ago, and science teaches that skepticism is the bestpolicy.
We should not complain about skepticism, but I recommend that you guard your practice of astrology because
many sketptics are hostile, and that has more to do with a form of bigotry than with healthy skepticism.
At the extreme of the spectrum are the professional debunkers like James Randi or www.skepdic.com who
are slippery, hostile, and hopeless.
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loulouazMember

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #17 - on: 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they are open to feelings and mystery. If it comes to signs, then
Air and Earth are more skeptical because they want facts and demonstrations. They are less impressed with opinions, feelings, or
hypotheses.

Posts: 1185
Gender:Stephen,Descartes was a A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.
His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire A sign & several planets also in that sign, & there
was noone more 'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #18 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:00 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several planets also in that sign, & there was noone more

'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

and we must study Philosophy before we talk about Descrates pursuit of certainity........!!

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #19 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:01 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they are open to feelings and mystery. If it comesto signs, then Air and Earth are more skeptical because they want facts and demonstrations. They are less impressed with
opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.

Stephen,Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several planets also in that sign, & there was noone more

'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

I believe I have demonstrated over and over again that I am disinclined to generalize about signs. My practicefocuses on bodies/points and the aspects/midpoints. If I am discussing these with people who seem to only
think in terms of signs, then I try to adjust in order to be friendly. I believe I started by discounting signs andemphasizing aspects. I usually do.
When I did discuss generalizing, I specified, if we are only speaking of signs, then....
I did not say all Air and Earth, and I do not think most people interpreted it as thus.
I repeat: skepticism is found in the aspects and midpoints most often, and that includes Descartes.
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loulouazMember

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #20 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:02 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 14:00 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Descartes was a

Posts: 1185
Gender:A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several planets also in that sign, & there was noone

more 'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

and we must study Philosophy before we talk about Descrates pursuit of certainity........!!

sure we mustLiz greene.

, astrologers included( which I'm not ) though I think some astrologers are brilliant ie

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Karen Roland

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #21 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:04 [UT+1] »well I tend to look at skeptisism (correct spelling finally lol) as just another faith and treat it as such. I do agree
that some skeptics are very forceful in their attempts to convince you of your folly but I handle them in thesame way I do religious callers. A firm NO THANKS and shut the door. What gets me is that by keeping
something quiet (instinctively or not) I am almost playing into the mumbo-jumbo theory?

Posts: 345
Gender:Back to top

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loulouaz
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #22 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they are open to feelings andmystery. If it comes to signs, then Air and Earth are more skeptical because they want facts andPosts: 1185
Gender:demonstrations. They are less impressed with opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.

Stephen,Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several planets also in that sign, & there was noone

more 'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

I believe I have demonstrated over and over again that I am disinclined to generalize about signs. My practice focuses on bodies/points
and the aspects/midpoints. If I am discussing these with people who seem to only think in terms of signs, then I try to adjust in order tobe friendly. I believe I started by discounting signs and emphasizing aspects. I usually do.
When I did discuss generalizing, I specified, if we are only speaking of signs, then....
I did not say all Air and Earth, and I do not think most people interpreted it as thus.
I repeat: skepticism is found in the aspects and midpoints most often, and that includes Descartes.

Hey Stephen,
for your info I think you are a pretty cool astrologer - don't get me wrong, I've been very impressed with someof your thoughts & opinions, are you i or is there a prominent i influence in you ?,I can usually tell. I'm one of your 'fans'

bet there is

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #23 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 14:04 [UT+1]:
well I tend to look at skeptisism (correct spelling finally lol) as just another faith and treat it as such. I do agree that some skeptics arevery forceful in their attempts to convince you of your folly but I handle them in the same way I do religious callers. A firm NO THANKS
and shut the door. What gets me is that by keeping something quiet (instinctively or not) I am almost playing into the mumbo-jumbo
theory?

A person who is anti-astrology is not the same thing as a skeptic. A legitimate skeptic is detached but
reasonable. If they seem smugly assured that nothing you can do will convince them, that is not simply
skepticism, it is smug arrogance.
To condemn anything that you have not investigated is arrogant, but that is not skepticism.
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Angelique
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #24 - on: 11.08.2009 at 14:24 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 13:38 [UT+1]:
An astrological enthusiast who loses their 'scepticism' might have lost a few other 'intelligent' dispositions.............

Pleasing
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #25 - on: 11.08.2009 at 15:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they are open to feelings andmystery. If it comes to signs, then Air and Earth are more skeptical because they want facts anddemonstrations. They are less impressed with opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.

Stephen,Posts: 4677

Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several planets also in that sign, & there was noone

more 'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

I believe I have demonstrated over and over again that I am disinclined to generalize about signs. My practice focuses on bodies/points
and the aspects/midpoints. If I am discussing these with people who seem to only think in terms of signs, then I try to adjust in order tobe friendly. I believe I started by discounting signs and emphasizing aspects. I usually do.
When I did discuss generalizing, I specified, if we are only speaking of signs, then....
I did not say all Air and Earth, and I do not think most people interpreted it as thus.
I repeat: skepticism is found in the aspects and midpoints most often, and that includes Descartes.

Stephen, I will volunteer to be one of your cases in point. I have abA and a bC and a bG and they are

all nicely conjunct! You'd think I'd be the biggest astrological skeptics around, right? Wrong!
Let's look at my midpoints.... I have B/O=MC (and my MC is on one of the so-called astrologer's degrees, 11f)Back to top

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #26 - on: 11.08.2009 at 15:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Juliet Morgan on 11.08.2009 at 15:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they are open to
feelings and mystery. If it comes to signs, then Air and Earth are more skeptical because theywant facts and demonstrations. They are less impressed with opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.

Stephen,Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.
A

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire
sign & several planets also in that sign, &there was noone more 'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

I believe I have demonstrated over and over again that I am disinclined to generalize about signs. My practice focuses onbodies/points and the aspects/midpoints. If I am discussing these with people who seem to only think in terms of signs,
then I try to adjust in order to be friendly. I believe I started by discounting signs and emphasizing aspects. I usually do.
When I did discuss generalizing, I specified, if we are only speaking of signs, then....
I did not say all Air and Earth, and I do not think most people interpreted it as thus.
I repeat: skepticism is found in the aspects and midpoints most often, and that includes Descartes.

Stephen, I will volunteer to be one of your cases in point. I have a bA and a bC and a bG and they are all nicely conjunct! You'dthink I'd be the biggest astrological skeptics around, right? Wrong!
Let's look at my midpoints.... I have

B/O=MC (and my MC is on one of the so-called astrologer's degrees, 11 f)

Moon/Uranus is the most open of all to astrology. They are open to mystery in general, and they are unhappy
when there is not mystery in their life. I also said that Mercury/Saturn has a tendency, and Chaos volunteered
that he was somewhat skeptical. You, Juliet, also have Mercury/Saturn/Sun trine Pluto which is an occultist,plus Neptune is on your Ascendant, and you are female, so I would not mark you as a typical skeptic.
You have a good mind for the chosen profession. You are mentally very capable, but you have a fear oflearning disabilities -- your fear of math seems obvious to me, and it is not uncommon in the general
population.
So, we often find contradicitons in charts. In your chart, the openness to mystery far outweighs theskepticism. Count your blessings; it is balance.
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Karen Roland

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #27 - on: 11.08.2009 at 15:28 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 15:25 [UT+1]:
Quote from Juliet Morgan on 11.08.2009 at 15:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, but they areopen to feelings and mystery. If it comes to signs, then Air and Earth are more
skeptical because they want facts and demonstrations. They are less impressed with
opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.

Posts: 345
Gender:Stephen,Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of fire in his chart.

His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several planets also inthat sign, & there was noone more 'sceptical' than ole descartes was there ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

I believe I have demonstrated over and over again that I am disinclined to generalize about signs. My
practice focuses on bodies/points and the aspects/midpoints. If I am discussing these with people who seemto only think in terms of signs, then I try to adjust in order to be friendly. I believe I started by discounting
signs and emphasizing aspects. I usually do.
When I did discuss generalizing, I specified, if we are only speaking of signs, then....
I did not say all Air and Earth, and I do not think most people interpreted it as thus.
I repeat: skepticism is found in the aspects and midpoints most often, and that includes Descartes.

Stephen, I will volunteer to be one of your cases in point. I have a bA and a bC and a bG and they are all nicely
conjunct! You'd think I'd be the biggest astrological skeptics around, right? Wrong!
Let's look at my midpoints.... I have

B/O=MC (and my MC is on one of the so-called astrologer's degrees, 11 f)

Moon/Uranus is the most open of all to astrology. They are open to mystery in general, and they are unhappy when there is not mysteryin their life. I also said that Mercury/Saturn has a tendency, and Chaos volunteered that he was somewhat skeptical. You, Juliet, also have
Mercury/Saturn/Sun trine Pluto which is an occultist, plus Neptune is on your Ascendant, and you are female, so I would not mark you as a
typical skeptic.
You have a good mind for the chosen profession. You are mentally very capable, but you have a fear of learning disabilities -- your fear ofmath seems obvious to me, and it is not uncommon in the general population.
So, we often find contradicitons in charts. In your chart, the openness to mystery far outweighs the skepticism. Count your blessings; it isbalance.

So it's easier to see who ISN'T a skeptic than who is...
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Virgo Dei

Re: Who are the sceptics?

Genetrix« Reply #28 - on: 11.08.2009 at 15:35 [UT+1] »MemberQuote:
Moon/Uranus is the most open of all to astrology. They are open to mystery in general, and they are unhappy when there is not mysteryin their life. I also said that Mercury/Saturn has a tendency, and Chaos volunteered that he was somewhat skeptical. You, Juliet, also have
Mercury/Saturn/Sun trine Pluto which is an occultist, plus Neptune is on your Ascendant, and you are female, so I would not mark you as a
typical skeptic.
You have a good mind for the chosen profession. You are mentally very capable, but you have a fear of learning disabilities -- your fear ofmath seems obvious to me, and it is not uncommon in the general population.
So, we often find contradicitons in charts. In your chart, the openness to mystery far outweighs the skepticism. Count your blessings; it isbalance.

Posts: 4677

Oh math scares the beegeezus out of me, Stephen. I failed math in the 7th grade and had to take it over insummer school. I only failed one class in college but, I failed it THREE FREAKING TIMES!!! Yes, you guessed
it, College Algebra 101. But, get this... I did well in Physics! go figure.
and, yeah, that hI on the i ASC is probably a large factor-- you're right about that. And lets not forget the
9th House B either.

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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #29 - on: 11.08.2009 at 15:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Juliet Morgan on 11.08.2009 at 15:35 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Moon/Uranus is the most open of all to astrology. They are open to mystery in general, and they are unhappy when there
is not mystery in their life. I also said that Mercury/Saturn has a tendency, and Chaos volunteered that he was somewhat
skeptical. You, Juliet, also have Mercury/Saturn/Sun trine Pluto which is an occultist, plus Neptune is on your Ascendant,
and you are female, so I would not mark you as a typical skeptic.
You have a good mind for the chosen profession. You are mentally very capable, but you have a fear of learning
disabilities -- your fear of math seems obvious to me, and it is not uncommon in the general population.
So, we often find contradicitons in charts. In your chart, the openness to mystery far outweighs the skepticism. Count yourblessings; it is balance.

Oh math scares the beegeezus out of me, Stephen. I failed math in the 7th grade and had to take it over in summer school. I only failed
one class in college but, I failed it THREE FREAKING TIMES!!! Yes, you guessed it, College Algebra 101. But, get this... I did well in
Physics! go figure.
and, yeah, thathI on the i ASC is probably a large factor-- you're right about that.

Einstein had the Mercury/Saturn conjunction, and he was very slow in school. His teachers were very hard on
him for his "dullness". This is typical of Saturn: disadvantage leads to excellence and achievement (in manycases).
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #30 - on: 11.08.2009 at 15:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 15:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 15:25 [UT+1]:
Quote from Juliet Morgan on 11.08.2009 at 15:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 13:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
I agree that Scorpio is suspicious of motives and not very trusting, butthey are open to feelings and mystery. If it comes to signs, then Air andEarth are more skeptical because they want facts and demonstrations.
They are less impressed with opinions, feelings, or hypotheses.

Stephen,Descartes was a

A a with his B & several planets in b but there was alot of firein his chart.
His birth time is unknown it's true, but he was a cardinal fire

A sign & several

planets also in that sign, & there was noone more 'sceptical' than ole descartes wasthere ?
We must not generalise (all of us, that is)

I believe I have demonstrated over and over again that I am disinclined to generalize about
signs. My practice focuses on bodies/points and the aspects/midpoints. If I am discussing thesewith people who seem to only think in terms of signs, then I try to adjust in order to befriendly. I believe I started by discounting signs and emphasizing aspects. I usually do.
When I did discuss generalizing, I specified, if we are only speaking of signs, then....
I did not say all Air and Earth, and I do not think most people interpreted it as thus.
I repeat: skepticism is found in the aspects and midpoints most often, and that includes
Descartes.

Stephen, I will volunteer to be one of your cases in point. I have a bA and a bC and a bG and they
are all nicely conjunct! You'd think I'd be the biggest astrological skeptics around, right? Wrong!
Let's look at my midpoints.... I have11

B/O=MC (and my MC is on one of the so-called astrologer's degrees,f)Moon/Uranus is the most open of all to astrology. They are open to mystery in general, and they are unhappy when there
is not mystery in their life. I also said that Mercury/Saturn has a tendency, and Chaos volunteered that he was somewhat
skeptical. You, Juliet, also have Mercury/Saturn/Sun trine Pluto which is an occultist, plus Neptune is on your Ascendant,
and you are female, so I would not mark you as a typical skeptic.
You have a good mind for the chosen profession. You are mentally very capable, but you have a fear of learning
disabilities -- your fear of math seems obvious to me, and it is not uncommon in the general population.
So, we often find contradicitons in charts. In your chart, the openness to mystery far outweighs the skepticism. Count yourblessings; it is balance.

So it's easier to see who ISN'T a skeptic than who is...

I never thought about it before, but that is probably correct, as far as I know. One of my oldest friends
remains staunchly skeptical. He has Ac Bl Asc/e. He has Sun/Uranus square Moon, but he also has

CmEoG.
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loulouazMember

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #31 - on: 11.08.2009 at 17:20 [UT+1] »Hello Stephen,
You did not answer my query,
Posts: 1185
Gender:are you i or is it emphasised in your chart ?
I need to know if I am right. It's ok I do not mind if I am wrong but I want to know either way, thanks

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OnceSceptical
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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #32 - on: 11.08.2009 at 17:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 14:04 [UT+1]:
well I tend to look at skeptisism (correct spelling finally lol) as just another faith and treat it as such. I do agree that someskeptics are very forceful in their attempts to convince you of your folly but I handle them in the same way I do religious
callers. A firm NO THANKS and shut the door. What gets me is that by keeping something quiet (instinctively or not) I am
almost playing into the mumbo-jumbo theory?

A person who is anti-astrology is not the same thing as a skeptic. A legitimate skeptic is detached but reasonable. If they seem smugly
assured that nothing you can do will convince them, that is not simply skepticism, it is smug arrogance.
To condemn anything that you have not investigated is arrogant, but that is not skepticism.

I think we should distinguish between empiricists who refuse to believe in supernatural/irrational things andsceptics (UK spelling, not US) who would not take anything at face value and who keep questioning things,
including their own experiences and ideas. That's what I would call healthy scepticism and it's an attitude I canstill identify with

I think it's connected to the strong presence of Virgo, Gemini, Air, Earth, Mercury andMutability in my chart. I used to think astrology is rubbish but not because I had a faith in natural science likethe empiricists (the types who would start campaigns against astrology and so on) but because of the primitive
Sun-sign astrology published in the popular press either in the form of silly forecasts or typology.
It was my interest in art and psychology (probably related to my stronly aspected Neptune) that made me takeit more seriously but first I just found the symbolism fascinating. I only started to get into it more a couple ofmonths ago because of some events in my life that a sense of destiny about them and these could beunderstood much better in astrological terms.
I think it's normal that you don't start discussing things related to beliefs and convinctions unless you knowthat the other person is open to them or you know they will respect your viwes even if they don't share them. I
don't think that astrology is something you have to "stand up for" and try to convert people to
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #33 - on: 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1] »Quote from OnceSceptical on 11.08.2009 at 17:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 14:04 [UT+1]:
well I tend to look at skeptisism (correct spelling finally lol) as just another faith and treat it as such. I do
agree that some skeptics are very forceful in their attempts to convince you of your folly but I handle themin the same way I do religious callers. A firm NO THANKS and shut the door. What gets me is that bykeeping something quiet (instinctively or not) I am almost playing into the mumbo-jumbo theory?

A person who is anti-astrology is not the same thing as a skeptic. A legitimate skeptic is detached but reasonable. If they
seem smugly assured that nothing you can do will convince them, that is not simply skepticism, it is smug arrogance.
To condemn anything that you have not investigated is arrogant, but that is not skepticism.

I think we should distinguish between empiricists who refuse to believe in supernatural/irrational things and sceptics (UK spelling, not US) who would not take anything at face value and who keep questioning things, including their own experiences andideas. That's what I would call healthy scepticism and it's an attitude I can still identify with

I think it's connected to the strong

presence of Virgo, Gemini, Air, Earth, Mercury and Mutability in my chart. I used to think astrology is rubbish but not because I had a faithin natural science like the empiricists (the types who would start campaigns against astrology and so on) but because of the primitive Sunsign astrology published in the popular press either in the form of silly forecasts or typology.
It was my interest in art and psychology (probably related to my stronly aspected Neptune) that made me take it more seriously but firstI just found the symbolism fascinating. I only started to get into it more a couple of months ago because of some events in my life that asense of destiny about them and these could be understood much better in astrological terms.
I think it's normal that you don't start discussing things related to beliefs and convinctions unless you know that the other person is open
to them or you know they will respect your viwes even if they don't share them. I don't think that astrology is something you have to"stand up for" and try to convert people toI agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That is merely an alternate "-ism". They are
impassioned about the Infidels, those who accept astrology and the Unexplained. Rather than objective,
detached skepticism, they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after death scientifically, but most people refuse
to believe as if belief were the point.
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loulouazMember

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #34 - on: 11.08.2009 at 17:59 [UT+1] »Ok, so you do not know yourself if you are or not, or you do not want to disclose the info.
An answer either way would have been nice, instead of ignoring me.

Posts: 1185
Gender:Hope your not one of the sensitive people I have upset, accidentally. If I have could you just come on out & say
so ?.

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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #35 - on: 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That is merely an alternate "-ism". They are impassioned about theInfidels, those who accept astrology and the Unexplained. Rather than objective, detached skepticism, they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after death scientifically, but most people refuse to believe as if belief were
the point.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #36 - on: 11.08.2009 at 19:02 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That is merely an alternate "-ism". They are
impassioned about the Infidels, those who accept astrology and the Unexplained. Rather than objective, detachedskepticism, they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after death scientifically, but most people refuse to believe
as if belief were the point.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

See "Astrology and Science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology
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now hereEx Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #37 - on: 11.08.2009 at 19:08 [UT+1] »New knowledge is always preceded by faith which has to be "blind", otherwise it would be simply a reasoned
acceptence of what is already known which does not have the capacity to progress into the unknown. The best
scientists who "bring in" new things from the unknown operate with a healthy and integrated combination ofG, and outer planet energies.
This is key in looking at the 2 kinds of skeptics.
The real skeptic has a faith/intuition/conviction (at least provisionally) in some theory or postulate enough totest (G) it in the practical "real world" whether or not the theory has any credible basis, and by doing so newknowledge is created. This is G at its interstitial best - a limitation that is also an interface, a boundary that
potentially gives access to the "other side". But the other side cannot be accessed without some faith in the"unknown".
This is where the "false skeptic" fails, usually because of an inability to use "outer planet energy" in the positive
expression - here G operates merely as impasse, not a transcendable potentially modifiable or expandable
boundary. It becomes fixed "law" not truly, but ideologically - all based on some kind of prejudice or reasoned
premise, the purveyor of which is usually blind to the assumptions that prevent anything being accepted that is
not infra-rationally known according to prior beliefs - a closed loop, G as stasis. A valid expression of G no
doubt, but one of the more limited in the range of Gian limitations, because one of the paradoxes of G is thatboundaries can remain as such while still expanding, morphing, shattering - as in progress, a moving
target/boundary.
The "false skeptic" is really an ideologue masquerading as a researcher of the unknown, when really the
opposite is the case. This type of skeptic is really bound by formal convention and conforms to the boundary
ideologically - not seeking new knowledge - but the preservation of the known (or what they believe the known
to be) and applies energy to rationalize the known to the exclusion of what falls outside of their beliefs. The
ideology of this skeptic becomes primary, not the search for truth. It often has little to do with science proper,
but operates more as a religion.
Interesting inversion.
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Karen Roland
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #38 - on: 11.08.2009 at 19:14 [UT+1] »Quote from OnceSceptical on 11.08.2009 at 17:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 14:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 14:04 [UT+1]:
well I tend to look at skeptisism (correct spelling finally lol) as just another faith and treat it as such. I do
agree that some skeptics are very forceful in their attempts to convince you of your folly but I handle themin the same way I do religious callers. A firm NO THANKS and shut the door. What gets me is that bykeeping something quiet (instinctively or not) I am almost playing into the mumbo-jumbo theory?

A person who is anti-astrology is not the same thing as a skeptic. A legitimate skeptic is detached but reasonable. If they

Posts: 345
Gender:seem smugly assured that nothing you can do will convince them, that is not simply skepticism, it is smug arrogance.
To condemn anything that you have not investigated is arrogant, but that is not skepticism.

I think we should distinguish between empiricists who refuse to believe in supernatural/irrational things and sceptics (UK spelling,

not US) who would not take anything at face value and who keep questioning things, including their own experiences
and ideas. That's what I would call healthy scepticism and it's an attitude I can still identify with
I think it's connected to thestrong presence of Virgo, Gemini, Air, Earth, Mercury and Mutability in my chart. I used to think astrology is rubbish but not because I had
a faith in natural science like the empiricists (the types who would start campaigns against astrology and so on) but because of theprimitive Sun-sign astrology published in the popular press either in the form of silly forecasts or typology.
It was my interest in art and psychology (probably related to my stronly aspected Neptune) that made me take it more seriously but firstI just found the symbolism fascinating. I only started to get into it more a couple of months ago because of some events in my life that asense of destiny about them and these could be understood much better in astrological terms.
I think it's normal that you don't start discussing things related to beliefs and convinctions unless you know that the other person is open
to them or you know they will respect your viwes even if they don't share them. I don't think that astrology is something

you have to "stand up for" and try to convert people to ;)well phewwww about the UK spelling lol
I agree and I certainly don't see myself as an evangelist, however the reaction I usually get (often from men) is
not that of someone disagreeing with a belief, rather than someone suddenly seeing me as an airhead bimbo
and therein lies the problem as far as I'm concerned. I often get treated with a patronising pat on the head if I
discuss astrology with 'Dates' and so I don't. It took me 8 months to even ask my last ex for his time of birth.
Now I'm pretty relaxed about whether to discuss astrology or not and even whether someone is on the same
page as me... the interesting thing is that it's almost unacceptable to have a lighthearted chat about along withother interests such as sports or photography.... odd isn't it? - unless of course you know they share yourfacination!
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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #39 - on: 11.08.2009 at 19:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 19:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That is merely an alternate "-ism". They
are impassioned about the Infidels, those who accept astrology and the Unexplained. Rather than objective,
detached skepticism, they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after death scientifically, but most people
refuse to believe as if belief were the point.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

See "Astrology and Science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

My point is Stephen if you are going to talk about scepticism do some research into what it 'means', here thedifference between philosophical and empirical scepticism.
You read much Geoffrey Dean, ..........? My hunch is probably not!!
Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

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Re: Who are the sceptics?

now hereEx Member« Reply #40 - on: 11.08.2009 at 19:33 [UT+1] »Quote:Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

Good point!
It may depend on who "you" is. If it is the material body proper then life and death would be mutually exclusive
propositions. If it is consciousness "resident" within the body, then that might be a non-physical "identity" fromthe outset, persisting thoughout transitions of life and death. To make things even more provisional, matter
itself could be a 'consciousness', making transitions between life and death simply one of "grade" ofconsciousness. Now with all these different grades of consciousness, which one(s) a person (you) identifies withconsciously would determine what is "nonsense" regarding whether one is dead or alive wouldn't it?
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Re: Who are the sceptics?

Stephen Baxter

Ex Member« Reply #41 - on: 11.08.2009 at 20:24 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 19:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 19:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That is merely an alternate"-ism". They are impassioned about the Infidels, those who accept astrology and theUnexplained. Rather than objective, detached skepticism, they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after death scientifically, but mostpeople refuse to believe as if belief were the point.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

See "Astrology and Science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

My point is Stephen if you are going to talk about scepticism do some research into what it 'means', here the difference between
philosophical and empirical scepticism.
You read much Geoffrey Dean, ..........? My hunch is probably not!!
Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

http://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Experiments-Breakthrough-Scientific-Evidence/dp/
074343658X
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Re: Who are the sceptics?

OnceSceptical
Ex Member« Reply #42 - on: 11.08.2009 at 20:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 19:14 [UT+1]:
I agree and I certainly don't see myself as an evangelist, however the reaction I usually get (often from men) is not that of someone
disagreeing with a belief, rather than someone suddenly seeing me as an airhead bimbo and therein lies the problem as far as I'mconcerned. I often get treated with a patronising pat on the head if I discuss astrology with 'Dates' and so I don't. It took me 8 months toeven ask my last ex for his time of birth.
Now I'm pretty relaxed about whether to discuss astrology or not and even whether someone is on the same page as me... the interesting
thing is that it's almost unacceptable to have a lighthearted chat about along with other interests such as sports or photography.... odd
isn't it? - unless of course you know they share your facination!

íHi Karen,I think the reaction you get may be like that because most men form their opinion on astrology as presented inglossy women's magazines they leaf through (at the dentist's or the girlfriend's place) It goes back to what
has been said about astrology being a "women's topic". You would not have a lighthearted chat with men aboutfashion and make-up either
So no, I don't find it odd... Also, because I used to share these prejudicesabout astrology myself I would not dream of bringing up astrology on a first date... Funny thing is, in my case
my boyfriend brought it up first (he had done a course in astrology). But even so, I still somehow feel that I
don't want to discuss charts too much with someone I'm involved with, for various reasons.
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Re: Who are the sceptics?

Karen Roland

Member« Reply #43 - on: 11.08.2009 at 21:17 [UT+1] »Quote from OnceSceptical on 11.08.2009 at 20:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 19:14 [UT+1]:
I agree and I certainly don't see myself as an evangelist, however the reaction I usually get (often from men) is not thatof someone disagreeing with a belief, rather than someone suddenly seeing me as an airhead bimbo and therein lies the
problem as far as I'm concerned. I often get treated with a patronising pat on the head if I discuss astrology with 'Dates'and so I don't. It took me 8 months to even ask my last ex for his time of birth.
Now I'm pretty relaxed about whether to discuss astrology or not and even whether someone is on the same page as me...
the interesting thing is that it's almost unacceptable to have a lighthearted chat about along with other interests such as
sports or photography.... odd isn't it? - unless of course you know they share your facination!

Posts: 345
Gender:

í
Hi Karen,I think the reaction you get may be like that because most men form their opinion on astrology as presented in glossy women's magazines
they leaf through (at the dentist's or the girlfriend's place) It goes back to what has been said about astrology being a "women's

topic". You would not have a lighthearted chat with men about fashion and make-up either

So no, I don't find it odd... Also, because I

used to share these prejudices about astrology myself I would not dream of bringing up astrology on a first date... Funny thing is, in mycase my boyfriend brought it up first (he had done a course in astrology). But even so, I still somehow feel that I don't want to discuss
charts too much with someone I'm involved with, for various reasons.

I think I still have an awful lot to learn about men
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #44 - on: 11.08.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 20:24 [UT+1]:

http://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Experiments-Breakthrough-Scientific-Evidence/dp/ 074343658X

Looks like it has a few methodological problems:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/mediums.html
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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #45 - on: 11.08.2009 at 23:13 [UT+1] »Quote from now here on 11.08.2009 at 19:33 [UT+1]:
Quote:Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

Good point!
It may depend on who "you" is. If it is the material body proper then life and death would be mutually exclusive propositions. If it isconsciousness "resident" within the body, then that might be a non-physical "identity" from the outset, persisting thoughout transitions oflife and death. To make things even more provisional, matter itself could be a 'consciousness', making transitions between life and death
simply one of "grade" of consciousness. Now with all these different grades of consciousness, which one(s) a person (you) identifies withconsciously would determine what is "nonsense" regarding whether one is dead or alive wouldn't it?

We could be here all night....
I think we know our bodies don't live after we die as we can watch them decay, so if we define life as this life
then it's a long shot, but who knows hey the smart money is on some form of reincarnation being a nonsense
but i guess we may never know as it's a bt unfalsifiable.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #46 - on: 11.08.2009 at 23:13 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 20:24 [UT+1]:

http://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Experiments-Breakthrough-Scientific-Evidence/dp/ 074343658X

Looks like it has a few methodological problems:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/mediums.html

I always thought you were a skeptic of astrology. Why don't you reveal yourself and be an honest man?
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #47 - on: 11.08.2009 at 23:15 [UT+1] »Quote:A person who is anti-astrology is not the same thing as a skeptic. A legitimate skeptic is detached but reasonable. If they seem smugly
assured that nothing you can do will convince them, that is not simply skepticism, it is smug arrogance.
To condemn anything that you have not investigated is arrogant, but that is not skepticism.

As I said...
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #48 - on: 11.08.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 23:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 20:24 [UT+1]:

http://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Experiments-Breakthrough-Scientific-Evidence/dp/
074343658X

Looks like it has a few methodological problems:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/mediums.html

I always thought you were a skeptic of astrology. Why don't you reveal yourself.

'Of course I am. I'm not an idiot, can you give me the name of a respected astrologer who isn't a
sceptic?.......take your time on this one!!
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #49 - on: 11.08.2009 at 23:58 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 23:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 23:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 23:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 20:24 [UT+1]:

http://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Experiments-Breakthrough-ScientificEvidence/dp/ 074343658X

Looks like it has a few methodological problems:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/mediums.html

I always thought you were a skeptic of astrology. Why don't you reveal yourself.

'Of course I am. I'm not an idiot, can you give me the name of a respected astrologer who isn't a sceptic?.......take your time on thisone!!

CSICSOP is one of the antiastrology organizations. They are the professional debunkers who have an
investment in ridicule for dollars. They are True Believers in their self-serving agenda. They are not servants ofthe truth.
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #50 - on: 12.08.2009 at 00:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 23:58 [UT+1]:

CSICSOP is one of the antiastrology organizations. They are the professional debunkers who have an investment in ridicule for dollars.
They are True Believers in their self-serving agenda. They are not servants of the truth.

How much they paying you?
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Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #51 - on: 12.08.2009 at 00:34 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 21:17 [UT+1]:
I think I still have an awful lot to learn about men

I'm kind of glad that most men are more skeptical about astrology, and many other belief-systems, than
women. I don't think that I would want to be in a relationship with someone who was not skeptical. It's badenough having to listen to women make pre-conceived judgments about people based on their horoscopes it's kind of a relief to leave all that behind outside an astrology forum or meeting, and get into a nice logicaland objective conversation with a non-astrologer.
I met a man last year who is an empiricist and atheist - a "Bright". He does not think that I am dumb, and I do
not find him closed - minded. Rather our conversations give to each other in a fair exchange . I try to show him
how astrology can be a more psychological explanation of spirituality and the matierialistic religion that he so
objects to, and he keeps me up to date on the latest science.
We both agree on the subjectivity of astrological "evidence" and on astrology's weakest link, Confirmation Bias
- the psychological mechanism whereby people will find evidence for their pre-conceived beliefs. He's made me
more precise, I think, in the way I describe astrology.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #52 - on: 12.08.2009 at 01:40 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 19:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 19:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 19:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That is merely analternate "-ism". They are impassioned about the Infidels, those who accept
astrology and the Unexplained. Rather than objective, detached skepticism, they are
militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after deathscientifically, but most people refuse to believe as if belief were the point.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

See "Astrology and Science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

My point is Stephen if you are going to talk about scepticism do some research into what it 'means', here the difference
between philosophical and empirical scepticism.
You read much Geoffrey Dean, ..........? My hunch is probably not!!
Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

to you stephen.

I have pretty good instincts about who is trustworthy, who is malicious. I had language's number from thestart, and you are like that too.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #53 - on: 12.08.2009 at 09:22 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 12.08.2009 at 00:34 [UT+1]:
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 21:17 [UT+1]:
I think I still have an awful lot to learn about men

I'm kind of glad that most men are more skeptical about astrology, and many other belief-systems, than women. I don't think that I
would want to be in a relationship with someone who was not skeptical. It's bad enough having to listen to women make pre-conceived
judgments about people based on their horoscopes - it's kind of a relief to leave all that behind outside an astrology forum or meeting,and get into a nice logical and objective conversation with a non-astrologer.
I met a man last year who is an empiricist and atheist - a "Bright". He does not think that I am dumb, and I do not find him closed minded. Rather our conversations give to each other in a fair exchange . I try to show him how astrology can be a more psychologicalexplanation of spirituality and the matierialistic religion that he so objects to, and he keeps me up to date on the latest science.
We both agree on the subjectivity of astrological "evidence" and on astrology's weakest link, Confirmation Bias - the psychologicalmechanism whereby people will find evidence for their pre-conceived beliefs. He's made me more precise, I think, in the way I describe
astrology.

It is fortunate that you found someone you like outside of the forum, because in the forum, you like those who
agree with you and dislike those who do not.
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Friesiangal
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #54 - on: 12.08.2009 at 10:10 [UT+1] »Getting back to the original question; was Karen asking where one would astrologically find scepticism, rather
than a discussion upon its merits, wise or otherwise, meant for a board other than astrology ?

Posts: 6820
Gender:My 2 cents is that it comes through Virgo, which everyone ( including those partaking in this thread)
possesses somewhere in their chart, and as shown through the function of its ruler, Mercury. It's the first signthat deals with physical and finite evidential proof of what the first 5....or every sign after it.....is talking about(Gemini), believes (Sagittarius) or has the utmost faith (Pisces) in. ( Sorry, Language, I disagree that Sag.
knows; i.m.h.o that's given to Aquarius, after seeing the physical proof given acknowledgment through
Capricorn. Sag. only believes 'to know it all' through knowledge it has acquired.

)

Whichever sign/house Mercury of Virgo is in is going to influence in which manner and where one expresses its
own scepticism towards what others think. Further aspects to Mercury are going to influence how this is done.
Yet, As a Virgo Ascendant and Mercury in Earth in 9, I could be biased.

Friesiangal
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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #55 - on: 12.08.2009 at 10:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 12.08.2009 at 01:40 [UT+1]:

I have pretty good instincts about who is trustworthy, who is malicious. I had language's number from the start, and you are like that too.

My number is 666, ignore any International Dialling stipulations, and ask for the sceptic. I don't have thenumber for the paranoia helpline to hand,..............
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #56 - on: 12.08.2009 at 11:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Friesiangal on 12.08.2009 at 10:10 [UT+1]:
My 2 cents is that it comes through Virgo, which everyone ( including those partaking in this thread) possesses somewhere in theirchart, and as shown through the function of its ruler, Mercury. It's the first sign that deals with physical and finite evidential proof of what
the first 5....or every sign after it.....is talking about (Gemini), believes (Sagittarius) or has the utmost faith (Pisces) in. ( Sorry,
Language, I disagree that Sag. knows; i.m.h.o that's given to Aquarius, after seeing the physical proof given acknowledgment through
Capricorn. Sag. only believes 'to know it all' through knowledge it has acquired.

)

Friesiangal

It's not about the 'knowing' it's about the urge or motivation to 'Know' thus the 'I know'. It is tied into belief
as, both Sag and Pisces ruled by Jupiter. Sag isn't that obsessed with 'facts' (whatever they are?).
Aquarius, being an air sign, is going to be motivated to evaluate 'knowledge'. More sceptical you might say.
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loulouaz

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #57 - on: 12.08.2009 at 11:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 12.08.2009 at 01:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 19:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 19:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 19:02 [UT+1]:

Posts: 1185
Gender:Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in empiricism. That ismerely an alternate "-ism". They are impassioned about the Infidels,
those who accept astrology and the Unexplained. Rather than objective,
detached skepticism, they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life after deathscientifically, but most people refuse to believe as if belief were thepoint.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

See "Astrology and Science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

My point is Stephen if you are going to talk about scepticism do some research into what it 'means', here
the difference between philosophical and empirical scepticism.
You read much Geoffrey Dean, ..........? My hunch is probably not!!
Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

to you stephen.

I have pretty good instincts about who is trustworthy, who is malicious. I had language's number from the start, and you are like that too.

Stephen,I actually think you are quite rude now.
I gave you a genuine compliment ( & I only give those to those I think are worthy of them)& then I politely asked you if you are a i.
I'm quite good at picking up on strong influences in people, I normally get the asc or B sign right.
You deliberately ignored my question.
I've learned something about you though,Strongly influenced i types ( if the placement & aspects are benign) usually respond to people who they /wehave nothing against in a wholesome, benevolent way.
You, if you are influenced by i might be one who has it badly aspected.
I wish you well in addressing your cynical outlook.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #58 - on: 12.08.2009 at 11:17 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 12.08.2009 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 12.08.2009 at 01:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 11.08.2009 at 19:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 19:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 19:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from language on 11.08.2009 at 18:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 11.08.2009 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
I agree; an empiricist is a True Believer, a believer in
empiricism. That is merely an alternate "-ism". They are
impassioned about the Infidels, those who accept astrology andthe Unexplained. Rather than objective, detached skepticism,
they are militant and reactionary.
The line is completely blurred. A scientist has researched life
after death scientifically, but most people refuse to believe as if
belief were the point.

Not very sensible is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

See "Astrology and Science"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

My point is Stephen if you are going to talk about scepticism do some research into what it'means', here the difference between philosophical and empirical scepticism.
You read much Geoffrey Dean, ..........? My hunch is probably not!!
Whats all this life after death nonsense, your either dead or alive aren't you?

to you stephen.

I have pretty good instincts about who is trustworthy, who is malicious. I had language's number from the start, and you
are like that too.

Stephen,I actually think you are quite rude now.
I gave you a genuine compliment ( & I only give those to those I think are worthy of them)& then I politely asked you if you are ai.

I'm quite good at picking up on strong influences in people, I normally get the asc or

B sign right.

You deliberately ignored my question.
I've learned something about you though,Strongly influenced

i types ( if the placement & aspects are benign) usually respond to people who they /we have nothing against in awholesome, benevolent way.
You, if you are influenced byi might be one who has it badly aspected.

I wish you well in addressing your cynical outlook.

Rude is bad, and malicious is worse which is what you are.
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OnceSceptical

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #59 - on: 12.08.2009 at 16:51 [UT+1] »Let's get back to the original question.
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1]:
Just an interesting general observation
I have been interested in spirituality for a long time now (and I would include astrology under this heading, because although factual andstuff it still requires an element of faith) and I am generally very inquisitive and open about this. However I do

find that when I meet certain people (read: mostly dates) I instinctly don't volunteer this info or
if I do, I downplay it slightly.
These people invariably turn out to be sceptics. Now this may just be perculiar to me... as I have dated mostly b andaaries men and they have ALL been of the 'astrology is a load of mumbo-jumbo' vareity. Is that a co-incidence? Or is there something inthis?
Who do you find to be the sceptics?

I think - as it's been mentioned before by others as well - that scepticism as an intellectual attitude could be
related to the signs of Virgo and Gemini and the placement of Mercury. As I said, it's an attitude that I feel
comfortable with (for a start, I have c AC and B + A and C in f). But Karen in fact is not really asking
about this attitude, rather her problem is, "why do the men I date think I am an airhead to believe inastrology?" She mentions she dated typically a and b men - neither of these signs are intellectual or sensitive
per se, so coupled with the general attitude among men about astrology, self-help and things like that, it's not
surprising she gets this reaction.

What I find interesting is that she actually chooses to date these men, even though she feels right from the
beginning that she'll meet with disapproval if she mentions astrology, which she is happy to discuss with anyother people in a lighthearted way. So I think it may be more productive to see what she finds attractive about
these men and nevertheless why she doesn't feel comfortable with them/starts to feel defensive about her
interests or beliefs.
We could have a look at her natal chart - provided she's willing to share it, given the presence of some people
here who seem to enjoy pick on others .. I don't mean anyone particular so if you personally think you are NOT
one of these, don't start defending yourself or others
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Virgo Dei
Genetrix

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #60 - on: 12.08.2009 at 17:22 [UT+1] »Member

Ebertin says that the skeptic can be found with the following midpoint: G=C/J

Posts: 4677

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realworld

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #61 - on: 12.08.2009 at 18:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 12.08.2009 at 09:22 [UT+1]:
It is fortunate that you found someone you like outside of the forum, because in the forum, you like those who agree with you and dislike
those who do not.

Nope. I like those who are polite, whether they agree with me or not. I wouldn't take part in a forum if I
expected everyone to agree with me. I don't think anyone on this forum likes ad-hominem comments.
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Re: Who are the sceptics?

~ Kent ~Ex Member« Reply #62 - on: 12.08.2009 at 18:55 [UT+1] »I am a skeptic and a doubting Thomas.
I attribute it to GmE stradling the 9th house cusp.
I think G in the house of faith tends to skepticism.
I am even skeptical of astrology when it's practiced literally and not metaphorically.
I look underneath literal reality for metaphorical meaning constantly.
If G is a kind of literal mindedness and the 9th is a house where metaphorical meaning is sought perhaps that
explains it.
__________________
ps. what is going on in this forum that people can't or won't be more tolerant and kinder to one another?
We have wonderful individual contributors who insist their job is to tell someone else they are wrong, foolish,
rude or some other perjorative. What's up with that? It's not a fun place to hang around when personal attack
is always lying in the wings ready to leap out and thrash someone. Don't you get TIRED of carrying around all
those grievances? It's hard to be happy inside when you cherish your grievances, nurture them and keep them
alive. There needs to be a box at the entrance to this place where everyone deposits their weapons anddefenses before being allowed to enter. I know everyone knows this but in the heat of argument how quickly
we forget. I'm sure I am as guilty as the next but I'm also sure we can do better than this which is my intent.
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #63 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:01 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 18:55 [UT+1]:
I am a skeptic and a doubting Thomas.

GmE stradling the 9th house cusp.
G in the house of faith tends to skepticism.

I attribute it toI think

I am even skeptical of astrology when it's practiced literally and not metaphorically.
I look underneath literal reality for metaphorical meaning constantly.
If

G is a kind of literal mindedness and the 9th is a house where metaphorical meaning is sought perhaps that explains it.

__________________
ps. what is going on in this forum that people can't or won't be more tolerant and kinder to one another?
We have wonderful individual contributors who insist their job is to tell someone else they are wrong, foolish, rude or some otherperjorative. What's up with that? It's not a fun place to hang around when personal attack is always lying in the wings ready to leap out
and thrash someone. Don't you get TIRED of carrying around all those grievances? It's hard to be happy inside when you cherish yourgrievances, nurture them and keep them alive. There needs to be a box at the entrance to this place wherePosts: 4677

everyone deposits their weapons and defenses before being allowed to enter. I know everyone knows
this but in the heat of argument how quickly we forget. I'm sure I am as guilty as the next but I'm also sure we can do better than thiswhich is my intent.

Dear Kent,
Thank you SO MUCH for saying this! It's wonderful! ALL of it! I agree whole-heartedly. It reminds me of the
Native American Indian story I like. Here it is:
An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an
injustice, "Let me tell you a story.
I too, at times, have felt a great hate for those that have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do.
But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would
die. I have struggled with these feelings many times." He continued, "It is as if there are two wolves inside me.
One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him, and does not take offense when no
offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way.
But the other wolf, ah! He is full of anger. The littlest thing will set him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone,
all the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger,for hisanger will change nothing.
Sometimes, it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit."
The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?"
The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed."

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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #64 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:13 [UT+1] »Juliet - I love your story. Hearing you tell about the wolf or wolves inside reminded me of Steppenwolf which I
must read again soon. Herman Hesse has been much on my mind lately. Such a troubled soul: tried suicide asa teenager and again as an adult and after a nervous breakdown went into full analysis with Carl Jung, during
which he writes Demian. He inspires me living such a productive life in spite of his demons. I think we all havea Steppenwolf inside us. Your story and his give us guidance on what to do about that.
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Re: Who are the sceptics?

language

Ex Member« Reply #65 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:17 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 19:13 [UT+1]:
Juliet - I love your story. Hearing you tell about the wolf or wolves inside reminded me of Steppenwolf which I must read again soon.
Herman Hesse has been much on my mind lately. Such a troubled soul: tried suicide as a teenager and again as an adult and after anervous breakdown went into full analysis with Carl Jung, during which he writes Demian. He inspires me living such a productive life inspite of his demons. I think we all have a Steppenwolf inside us. Your story and his give us guidance on what to do about that.

I wasn't aware he tried to commit suicide even once, what source are you relying on here?
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judyanne
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #66 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:20 [UT+1] »I think I have a healthy amount of native scepticism with jC, but I will believe in something if it proves itself
to be useful. The key word is "useful." So I believe that astrology works because I've seen it work, and I've
seen how much it can help people.
It's interesting how many j or Gian people there are who have a strong interest in astrology, because of its
usefulness. One might guess that there would not be many j or Gian people involved in astrology, but that is
an incorrect assumption.

Posts: 2012
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Karen Roland

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #67 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:27 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 18:55 [UT+1]:
I am a skeptic and a doubting Thomas.

GmE stradling the 9th house cusp.
G in the house of faith tends to skepticism.

I attribute it toI think

I am even skeptical of astrology when it's practiced literally and not metaphorically.
I look underneath literal reality for metaphorical meaning constantly.
If

G is a kind of literal mindedness and the 9th is a house where metaphorical meaning is sought perhaps that explains it.

__________________
ps. what is going on in this forum that people can't or won't be more tolerant and kinder to one another?
We have wonderful individual contributors who insist their job is to tell someone else they are wrong, foolish, rude or some

Posts: 345
Gender:other perjorative. What's up with that? It's not a fun place to hang around when personal attack is always lying in the wings
ready to leap out and thrash someone. Don't you get TIRED of carrying around all those grievances? It's hard to be happy
inside when you cherish your grievances, nurture them and keep them alive. There needs to be a box at the entrance to thisplace where everyone deposits their weapons and defenses before being allowed to enter. I know everyone knows this but
in the heat of argument how quickly we forget. I'm sure I am as guilty as the next but I'm also sure we can do better than
this which is my intent.

That's an interesting combination...
and very nicely put!!!!!
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entrevisions
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #68 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:39 [UT+1] »i was not, the first time i was skeptical is the day i were reading kant, i have been ungrounded, uprooted&
metaphysically disrupted. He unbuilds the reality, i were injuried in my convictions. after reading each sentence,
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~ Kent ~Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #69 - on: 12.08.2009 at 19:56 [UT+1] »language Here's a starting place. I didn't know either. Also considered alcoholic. Goes on to win the Nobel prize for
Literature.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hesse,_Hermann
I think today he would be considered bipolar disorder.

GoandnF may suggest bipolar disorder.

I heard a shrink, talking about a young boy who committed suicide documented by his father in a documentary
film called: "Boy Interrupted" that bipolar is the cancer of psychological illnesses because it takes so many bysuicide.
Hesse is interesting because he documents his struggle with suicide at the begining of Steppenwolf. When I
read it I had a hard time not putting it down during the first 50 pages or so because he is so brutally truthful.
All suicides have the responsibility of fighting against the temptation of suicide. Every one of them knows very
well in some corner of his soul that suicide, though a way out, is rather a mean and shabby one, and that it isnobler and finer to be conquered by life than to fall by one's own hand. ~ Hermann Hesse, Steppenwolf.
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #70 - on: 12.08.2009 at 20:21 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 19:56 [UT+1]:
language Here's a starting place. I didn't know either. Also considered alcoholic. Goes on to win the Nobel prize for Literature.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hesse,_Hermann
I think today he would be considered bipolar disorder.

GoandnF may suggest bipolar disorder.

I heard a shrink, talking about a young boy who committed suicide documented by his father in a documentary film called: "BoyInterrupted" that bipolar is the cancer of psychological illnesses because it takes so many by suicide.
Hesse is interesting because he documents his struggle with suicide at the begining of Steppenwolf. When I read it I had a hard time notputting it down during the first 50 pages or so because he is so brutally truthful.
All suicides have the responsibility of fighting against the temptation of suicide. Every one of them knows very well in some corner of hissoul that suicide, though a way out, is rather a mean and shabby one, and that it is nobler and finer to be conquered by life than to fall by
one's own hand. ~ Hermann Hesse, Steppenwolf.

They mention one suicide attempt here aged 15?, what about the other one you mentioned?
Bi-polar and jup/sat?, no idea of your thinking here.
He does have a moon/ saturn contact, which is linked to depression, in the 3rd, so some 'negative ' thinking
maybe, but other than this not an obvious chart of someone who suffered from depression. His mental healthwas pretty good from memory, not as though he didn't write anything!
Glass bead Game is my favourite - a mind shifter for me many yrs ago!
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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #71 - on: 12.08.2009 at 20:35 [UT+1] »Quote:
They mention one suicide attempt here aged 15?, what about the other one you mentioned?
Bi-polar and jup/sat?, no idea of your thinking here.

I’ll have to look further to find his adult suicide attempt. He flirts with suicide and has ideation much of his
adult life. I think the second attempt happens after a parent dies and his child gets a life-threatening illness.
This is when he suffers a “nervous breakdown.” I don’t exactly know what a nervous breakdown is. It’s notexactly a precise clinical term. But when this happens is when he begins with Jung in analysis.
With respect to F in difficult aspect to G the person has two contradictory urges. One is manic (F) and theother is depressive (G) which are in a very difficult conflict. I have no statistical evidence to support anassertion that F in difficult aspect to G may often be found in bipolar people. It certainly is not the only
suggestion of these two planets in hard aspect. Not everyone with this difficult aspect will be bipolar.
In "Saturn" by Liz Greene speaking about natal aspects between F and G "The squares and oppositions areassociated with a kind of see-saw temperment which swings between the extremes of hopefulness and despair
and after the aspects of Venus to Saturn these are the favorite choices of suicides." (pp121)
In "Saturn, Chiron and the Centaurs" by Melanie Reinhart "...there is often a touch of the so-called manicdepressive pattern with G in any aspect to F, perhaps being most obvious with the opposition." (pp80)
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #72 - on: 12.08.2009 at 21:13 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 20:35 [UT+1]:
Quote:
They mention one suicide attempt here aged 15?, what about the other one you mentioned?
Bi-polar and jup/sat?, no idea of your thinking here.

I’ll have to look further to find his adult suicide attempt. He flirts with suicide and has ideation much of his adult life. I think the second
attempt happens after a parent dies and his child gets a life-threatening illness. This is when he suffers a “nervous breakdown.” I don’t
exactly know what a nervous breakdown is. It’s not exactly a precise clinical term. But when this happens is when he begins with Jung inanalysis.
With respect to

F in difficult aspect to G the person has two contradictory urges. One is manic (F) and the other is depressive (G). I
F in difficult aspect to G may often be found in bipolar people. It certainly is nothave no statistical evidence to support an assertion thatthe only suggestion of these two planets in hard aspect. Not everyone with this difficult aspect will be bipolar.

Nervous breakdown refers to when you are no longer in control of your nervous system. Your psycho/social
functioning has broken down. It may not be clinical but its very descriptive, similar to autonomic disorders
where he CNS/PNS has shifted into unhelpful patterns of operation. It's linked to reactive as opposed toendogenous depression so the term may be used for someone who is in a temporarily 'disabled' state.
I see your thinking with bipolar/manic depression, as the mania is an escape from or defence against the
depression and the person starts imagining they are special, gifted, untouchable, etc. The astrological problem
is, and the psychological one, is that these are impersonal/social/sub-generational planets so a combination isunlikely to tell us much about our personal 'psychologies'. If the depressed person has a sun or moon/ jupiter,or neptune ,aspect then s/he may be disposed to respond this way to apathy, despair, etc.
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~ Kent ~Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #73 - on: 12.08.2009 at 21:14 [UT+1] »Here is something interesting about famous depressed people.
_______________
53 Who are some famous people who suffer from depression and bipolar disorder?
This list represents a few of the famous people included in a list posted to a.s.d. on a periodic basis. Much of itis taken from the book by Kay Redfield Jamison, "Touched With Fire; Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic
Temperament." The Free Press (Macmillan), New York, 1993. Used without permission, but with intent toeducate, and not for profit. Please send updates (or additions) to jikelman@ngdc.noaa.gov"This is meant to be an illustrative rather than a comprehensive list... Most of the writers, composers, andartists are American, British, European, Irish, or Russian; all are deceased... Many if not most of these writers,
artists, and composers had other major problems as well, such as medical illnesses, alcoholism or drug
addiction, or exceptionally difficult life circumstances. They are listed here as having suffered from a mooddisorder because their mood symptoms predated their other conditions, because the nature and course of theirmood and behavior symptoms were consistent with a diagnosis of an independently existing affective illness,
and/or because their family histories of depression, manic-depressive illness, and suicide--coupled with theirown symptoms--were sufficiently strong to warrant their inclusion." (from Touched With Fire...)KEY:

H = Asylum or psychiatric hospital
S = Suicide
SA = Suicide Attempt**WRITERS:** Hans Christian Andersen, Honore de Balzac, James Barrie, William Faulkner (H), F. Scott
Fitzgerald (H), Ernest Hemingway (H, S), Hermann Hesse (H, SA), Henrik Ibsen, Henry James, William James,
Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), Joseph Conrad (SA), Charles Dickens, Isak Dinesen (SA), Ralph Waldo Emerson,
Herman Melville, Eugene O'Neill (H, SA), Mary Shelley, Robert Louis Stevenson, Leo Tolstoy, Tennessee Williams(H), Mary Wollstonecraft (SA), Virginia Woolf (H, S)**COMPOSERS:** Hector Berlioz (SA), Anton Bruckner (H), George Frederic Handel, Gustav Holst, Charles
Ives, Gustav Mahler, Modest Mussorgsky, Sergey Rachmaninoff, Giocchino Rossini, Robert Schumann (H, SA),
Alexander Scriabin, Peter Tchaikovsky**NONCLASSICAL COMPOSERS AND MUSICIANS:** Irving Berlin (H), Noel Coward, Stephen Foster, Charles
Mingus (H), Charles Parker (H, SA), Cole Porter (H)**POETS:** William Blake, Robert Burns, George Gordon, Lord Byron, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Hart Crane (S), Emily Dickinson, T.S. Eliot (H), Oliver Goldsmith, Gerard Manley Hopkins, Victor Hugo, Samuel Johnson, John
Keats, Vachel Lindsay (S), James Russell Lowell, Robert Lowell (H), Edna St. Vincent Millay (H), Boris Pasternak(H), Sylvia Plath (H, S), Edgar Allan Poe (SA), Ezra Pound (H), Anne Sexton (H, S), Percy Bysshe Shelley (SA),
Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Dylan Thomas, Walt Whitman**ARTISTS:** Richard Dadd (H), Thomas Eakins, Paul Gauguin (SA), Vincent van Gogh (H, S), Ernst Ludwig
Kirchner (H, S), Edward Lear, Michelangelo, Edvard Meunch (H), Georgia O'Keeffe (H), George Romney, Dante
Gabriel Rossetti (SA)**Confirmed Bipolars (still living):** Idi Amin, former dictator; Patty Duke (Anna Pearce), actor, writer; Connie
Francis, actor, musician; Peter Gabriel, musician; Charles Haley, athlete (Dallas Cowboys); Kristy McNichols,
actor; Spike Mulligan, comic actor; Abigail Padgett, mystery writer; Murray Pezim, financier (Canada); Charley
Pride, musician; Axl Rose, musician; Ted Turner, entrepreneur, media giant (U.S.); Robin Williams, actor,
comedian**Confirmed Unipolars (still living):** Roseanne Arnold, actor, writer, comedienne (also has Multiple personality
disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder); Dick Cavett, writer, media personality; Tony Dow, actor, director;
Kitty Dukakis, Massachusetts first lady; William Styron, writer; James Taylor, musician; Mike Wallace, news
anchor.
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~ Kent ~Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #74 - on: 12.08.2009 at 21:30 [UT+1] »language Quote:
If the depressed person has a sun or moon/ jupiter, or neptune ,aspect then s/he may be disposed to respond this way to apathy, despair,etc.

I see your point as well. Without aspects to the B, especially, I can see how these social planets (F and G)
may not have such an emotional impact on one. But with B in contact with both G and F and those twobeing in difficult aspect to each other, as in the Hesse chart, seems a possible signature for bipolar disorder orat least a life like an emotional roller coaster. To complicate things, Hesse not only has B in contact with
FoG but he also has CnF and CoG.
Magister Ludi is the only Hesse novel I haven't read. With Gc in my 9th house, I am a slow reader but I
retain everything I read. But because I am slow I have always avoided long novels. I should get over it andread his last, unread novel.
_____________________
I have been reading your posts for a while from the sidelines and I like the knowledge and critical thinking you
bring to this forum. Thank you for that.
_____________________
By now we have totally derailed the OP. Please accept my apologies OP. But as long as we have gone this far,here is Hesse's chart.

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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #75 - on: 12.08.2009 at 22:15 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 21:30 [UT+1]:
language Quote:
If the depressed person has a sun or moon/ jupiter, or neptune ,aspect then s/he may be disposed to respond this way toapathy, despair, etc.

B, especially, I can see how these social planets (F and G) may not have such an
B in contact with both G and F and those two being in difficult aspect to each other, as in the Hesse

I see your point as well. Without aspects to theemotional impact on one. But withchart, seems a possible signature for bipolar disorder or at least a life like an emotional roller coaster. To complicate things, Hesse not only
hasin contact with
but he also has
and
.

B

FoG

CnF

CoG

Magister Ludi is the only Hesse novel I haven't read. With

Gc in my 9th house, I am a slow reader but I retain everything I read. But

because I am slow I have always avoided long novels. I should get over it and read his last, unread novel.
_____________________
I have been reading your posts for a while from the sidelines and I like the knowledge and critical thinking you bring to this forum. Thankyou for that.

I think i'll keep an eye out for yours as you seem to have some common sense and maturity.
I'm not sure if i've read all of Hesse's output but i would say most ,GBG stood out for me, it seems to be
widely regarded as his masterpiece. It's odd as i've also read a few biographies and couldn't recall the suicide
attempt(s), when i remove myself from the sofa i'll dig one/some out later if they are here! I read quickly andforget most things, I have one of those cardinal mercury's that needs to repeat or forget!!
One valid criticism of Hesse is he is a bit 'wordy' I always assumed this was to do with Mer/Jup although it isclaimed to operate more along the lines of always knowing whats right for everybody, which he may have been
guilty of in his personal life. Both angular, with Mer in Gemini. I have wondered if Mars being in the 3rd wasmore probable, not that our paths crossed.
Saturn in the 9th, fears meaninglessness and defends itself by saying 'I Know', but in Gemini it fears becoming
to committed so you might have something of a paradox there?
ps- I don't go along with his thoughts on suicide, sometimes it is a very rational and sensible option. I flirt with
the idea when our New Age friends start talking about 'spirituality'
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Penguin Trauma
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #76 - on: 12.08.2009 at 22:30 [UT+1] »It's pretty interesting that (at the beginning of this thread) people mention b or f or h as the most
sceptical, as I have met people of these signs that are the least!
Nearly all the b and f I know believe in Astrology, or follow some New Agey hobby, ie Tarot cards, or they
practice Yoga, etc. Even if they don't 'believe' in Astrology, they still have an interest in the occult/paranormal
stuff.
The most sceptical ones I've met tend to be k (males especially, and quite vehemently), j, g, and funnily
enough, other l(not necessarily Sun signs, by the way, also people with a strong emphasis on those signs)
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #77 - on: 12.08.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1] »I hope our OP doesn't mind this little Herman Hesse tangent because I'm enjoying it. I need to read
Steppenwolf now. I looked at Hesse's midpoints. He has many, many interesting ones. These stand out:

A=O/J : Ebertin says, "Urge for independence and freedom, untiring creative work, tendency to make thehighest demands on one's physical energy, strong emotional tensions. Over-excitement of the nerves, a
breakdown, a catastrophe."

J=D/G: Ebertin says, "Unusually strong tension in love relationship, temporary or passing states of chaos."
E=G/K: Ebertin says, "Desire to gain release from emotional depression, suffering through others. Enforcedseperation, bereavement within the family."
Posts: 4677

Those were some of the more challenging midpoints. He has many lovely ones too. I like this one:
MC=D/F: Ebertin says, "Ability to radiate one's inner happiness, demonstration of gladness and warm heart
when meeting others. A union between two people which is founded on deep affection."
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EarthBoundEx Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #78 - on: 12.08.2009 at 22:53 [UT+1] »From my work with public in clubs for many years I can tell you I have seen many sun-sign tatoos and talked
about astrology many times with people by asking or being asking "whats your sign or sneakily asking an age
and then ,Well when is your birthday ? " haha.
I seen mainly Taurus,Capricorn,Scorpio and Aries tatoos of there sign (bulls,rams,etc)with the men(but maybe
the tattoos were just novelties). One girl I worked with had a tiny scorpion tatooed right on her ass! It seemed
Leo and Scorpio men whom I talked about it seemed to know the most about astrology that I met
working.Also a Capricorn- Howard Stern has the j tattooed on his arm. Most everyone I talked with it about
was interested and did not seem skeptic of those signs I listed above. The only men who were sceptics werealways Sagittarius,Libra,and Cancer. Sometimes would meet a Libra that was into it though ,but the Cancers
acted scared or something and Sags would jokingly make fun of the newspaper astro horoscopes.
I do agree most all women have or had an interest in astrology!
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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #79 - on: 12.08.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1] »Quote:
Saturn in the 9th, fears meaninglessness and defends itself by saying 'I Know', but in Gemini it fears becoming to committed so you
might have something of a paradox there?

Thank you language. That is good.

“Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.”~Walt

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #80 - on: 12.08.2009 at 22:56 [UT+1] »Quote from Juliet Morgan on 12.08.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1]:
I hope our OP doesn't mind this little Herman Hesse tangent because I'm enjoying it. I need to read Steppenwolf now. I looked at Hesse's
midpoints. He has many, many interesting ones. These stand out:

A=O/J : Ebertin says, "Urge for independence and freedom, untiring creative work, tendency to make the highest demands on one's
physical energy, strong emotional tensions. Over-excitement of the nerves, a breakdown, a catastrophe."

J=D/G: Ebertin says, "Unusually strong tension in love relationship, temporary or passing states of chaos."
E=G/K: Ebertin says, "Desire to gain release from emotional depression, suffering through others. Enforced seperation, bereavement
within the family."Those were some of the more challenging midpoints. He has many lovely ones too. I like this one:

D/F: Ebertin says, "Ability to radiate one's inner happiness, demonstration of gladness and warm heart when meeting others. A

MC=union between two people which is founded on deep affection."

He has a stellium Mars/Saturn/Moon that squares both Asc and Mercury which is a very conventional signal for
depressive tendencies.
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Virgo Dei Genetrix

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #81 - on: 12.08.2009 at 23:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 12.08.2009 at 22:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from Juliet Morgan on 12.08.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1]:
I hope our OP doesn't mind this little Herman Hesse tangent because I'm enjoying it. I need to read Steppenwolf now. I
looked at Hesse's midpoints. He has many, many interesting ones. These stand out:

A=O/J : Ebertin says, "Urge for independence and freedom, untiring creative work, tendency to make the highest
demands on one's physical energy, strong emotional tensions. Over-excitement of the nerves, a breakdown, acatastrophe."

J=D/G: Ebertin says, "Unusually strong tension in love relationship, temporary or passing states of chaos."
E=G/K: Ebertin says, "Desire to gain release from emotional depression, suffering through others. Enforced seperation,
bereavement within the family."

Posts: 4677

Those were some of the more challenging midpoints. He has many lovely ones too. I like this one:

D/F: Ebertin says, "Ability to radiate one's inner happiness, demonstration of gladness and warm heart whenMC=

meeting others. A union between two people which is founded on deep affection."

He has a stellium Mars/Saturn/Moon that squares both Asc and Mercury which is a very conventional signal for depressive tendencies.

I just read all three different combinations of these three planets in Ebertin's book and they each point to twothings:1) Depression and 2) Seperation from Mother/Wife/Women
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language
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #82 - on: 12.08.2009 at 23:04 [UT+1] »Quote from ~ Kent ~ on 12.08.2009 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Saturn in the 9th, fears meaninglessness and defends itself by saying 'I Know', but in Gemini it fears becoming tocommitted so you might have something of a paradox there?

Thank you language. That is good.

“Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.”~Walt Whitman

I don't think it's helpful seeing this as a 'contradiction' more so a 'tension'.
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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #83 - on: 12.08.2009 at 23:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Juliet Morgan on 12.08.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1]:
I hope our OP doesn't mind this little Herman Hesse tangent because I'm enjoying it. I need to read Steppenwolf now. I looked at Hesse's
midpoints. He has many, many interesting ones. These stand out:

A=O/J : Ebertin says, "Urge for independence and freedom, untiring creative work, tendency to make the highest demands on one's
physical energy, strong emotional tensions. Over-excitement of the nerves, a breakdown, a catastrophe."

J=D/G: Ebertin says, "Unusually strong tension in love relationship, temporary or passing states of chaos."
E=G/K: Ebertin says, "Desire to gain release from emotional depression, suffering through others. Enforced seperation, bereavement
within the family."Those were some of the more challenging midpoints. He has many lovely ones too. I like this one:

D/F: Ebertin says, "Ability to radiate one's inner happiness, demonstration of gladness and warm heart when meeting others. A

MC=union between two people which is founded on deep affection."

This is Liz Greene's depression 'cookbook' which i knocked out from her depression chapter in 'Dynamics of theunconscious', so not necessarily how she would present it!!
She does occasionally cite Ebertin as worth a gander, although he has this more concrete/predictive/simple
bent.
Prominent jh
Harsh aspects between GJ and AB
Harsh aspects between G J and E
Harsh aspects between G and D

G in the water houses
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #84 - on: 12.08.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1] »Quote from language on 12.08.2009 at 23:11 [UT+1]:
Quote from Juliet Morgan on 12.08.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1]:
I hope our OP doesn't mind this little Herman Hesse tangent because I'm enjoying it. I need to read Steppenwolf now. I
looked at Hesse's midpoints. He has many, many interesting ones. These stand out:

A=O/J : Ebertin says, "Urge for independence and freedom, untiring creative work, tendency to make the highest
demands on one's physical energy, strong emotional tensions. Over-excitement of the nerves, a breakdown, acatastrophe."

J=D/G: Ebertin says, "Unusually strong tension in love relationship, temporary or passing states of chaos."
E=G/K: Ebertin says, "Desire to gain release from emotional depression, suffering through others. Enforced seperation,
bereavement within the family."Those were some of the more challenging midpoints. He has many lovely ones too. I like this one:

D/F: Ebertin says, "Ability to radiate one's inner happiness, demonstration of gladness and warm heart whenMC=

meeting others. A union between two people which is founded on deep affection."

This is Liz Greene's depression 'cookbook' which i knocked out from her depression chapter in 'Dynamics of the unconscious', so notnecessarily how she would present it!!
She does occasionally cite Ebertin as worth a gander, although he has this more concrete/predictive/simple bent.
Prominentjh

GJ and AB
G J and E
Harsh aspects between G and D
G in the water houses
Harsh aspects between
Harsh aspects between

Harsh aspects between GJ and AB

Do you mean Saturn/Sun; Saturn/Moon, Pluto/Sun; and Pluto/Moon?
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language

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #85 - on: 12.08.2009 at 23:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 12.08.2009 at 23:14 [UT+1]:
Harsh aspects between GJ and AB
Do you mean Saturn/Sun; Saturn/Moon, Pluto/Sun; and Pluto/Moon?

There we are, I knew you had it in you somewhere to read a post correctly -keep it up!!
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Silverlake
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #86 - on: 12.08.2009 at 23:30 [UT+1] »To the OP:
There was a time when everyone asked about astrology. It is unfair to yourself, to do a synastry chart, on
anyone that you just met. Let it go as it may...later..with time... then, look at it. Same with composite's.
Why judge, what has not happened? Be kind to yourself.
Not one sign or configuration, some people question. Others do not.
--------------To the rest of you: Read "True Believers".
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Karen Roland

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #87 - on: 13.08.2009 at 06:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Juliet Morgan on 12.08.2009 at 22:47 [UT+1]:
I hope our OP doesn't mind this little Herman Hesse tangent because I'm enjoying it. I need to read Steppenwolf
now. I looked at Hesse's midpoints. He has many, many interesting ones. These stand out:

A=O/J : Ebertin says, "Urge for independence and freedom, untiring creative work, tendency to make the highest demands on one's
physical energy, strong emotional tensions. Over-excitement of the nerves, a breakdown, a catastrophe."

J=D/G: Ebertin says, "Unusually strong tension in love relationship, temporary or passing states of chaos."
E=G/K: Ebertin says, "Desire to gain release from emotional depression, suffering through others. Enforced seperation, bereavement
within the family."

Posts: 345
Gender:Those were some of the more challenging midpoints. He has many lovely ones too. I like this one:

D/F: Ebertin says, "Ability to radiate one's inner happiness, demonstration of gladness and warm heart when meeting others. A

MC=union between two people which is founded on deep affection."

Please go ahead this is very interesting. I'm unable to join in but actually I wish I could lol
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Karen Roland
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #88 - on: 13.08.2009 at 06:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Silverlake on 12.08.2009 at 23:30 [UT+1]:
To the OP:
There was a time when everyone asked about astrology. It is unfair to yourself, to do a synastry chart, on anyone that you just met. Let it
go as it may...later..with time... then, look at it. Same with composite's.

Why judge, what has not happened? Be kind to yourself.
Not one sign or configuration, some people question. Others do not.
--------------To the rest of you: Read "True Believers".

Posts: 345
Gender:Quite right.... however because every person I meet is an interesting chart vs interaction to look at. I'm at suchan early stage of my learning that even just looking at basic natal charts is facinating... though I should
probably stop treating my dates as lab-rats
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OnceSceptical

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #89 - on: 13.08.2009 at 17:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 13.08.2009 at 06:25 [UT+1]:
Quote from Silverlake on 12.08.2009 at 23:30 [UT+1]:
To the OP:
There was a time when everyone asked about astrology. It is unfair to yourself, to do a synastry chart, on anyone that you
just met. Let it go as it may...later..with time... then, look at it. Same with composite's.

Why judge, what has not happened? Be kind to yourself.
Not one sign or configuration, some people question. Others do not.

Quite right.... however because every person I meet is an interesting chart vs interaction to look at. I'm at such an early stage of mylearning that even just looking at basic natal charts is facinating... though I should probably stop treating my dates as lab-rats

I think people you are interested in but don't know are the worst for learning

ESPECIALLY men you date...

As Silverlake said, it's best to get to know the other person without any preconceptions. Of course it is hard toresist the temptation to set up a chart if you know the exact time of birth but making assumptions based on
birthdays is very dangerous I think.
Most of the little I know about astrology comes from studying my own natal chart with the help of books andcomments from people with more experience with astrology. Of course I made a synastry chart and a composite
for me and my boyfriend too but it was only after he told me about his chart himself.
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OnceSceptical
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #90 - on: 13.08.2009 at 17:49 [UT+1] »Juliet, I liked your story very much, thanks very much for sharing it!
And this discussion of Hesse is very interesting. Please continue!
I read Steppenwolf and some other novels+stories, some of them (including Steppenwolf and Demian) morethan once in my twenties but now it is Das Glasperlenspiel and Siddhartha that I would like to re-read.
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realworld

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #91 - on: 13.08.2009 at 17:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1]:
Just an interesting general observation
I have been interested in spirituality for a long time now (and I would include astrology under this heading, because although factual andstuff it still requires an element of faith) and I am generally very inquisitive and open about this. However I do find that when I meetcertain people (read: mostly dates) I instinctly don't volunteer this info or if I do, I downplay it slightly.
These people invariably turn out to be sceptics. Now this may just be perculiar to me... as I have dated mostly

b and aaries men andthey have ALL been of the 'astrology is a load of mumbo-jumbo' vareity. Is that a co-incidence? Or is there something in this?
Who do you find to be the sceptics?

I am beginning to worry about this thread, because there is a growing attitude - always present on the forum that there is something wrong with sceptics for not having the neccessary faith to believe in astrology. We liketo "diagnose" them, pinpointing a planetary aspect that would explain their "illness".
Isn't this a bit similar to religious bigotry? The Spanish inquisition used more violent methods to reveal lack offaith in what they believed was "the truth" - we just use horoscopes.
I personally believe in the value of astrology, having enough subjective evidence to swing the balance in its
favor, after weighing it up with more rational, objective explanations. My Virgo planets also make me more of a
critic than a skeptic. But I am uncomfortable at how the astrological community separates itself from the morerational, scientifically minded community, into an astrologcial "bubble".
As another poster said (I think it was Dr. Koo), a certain amount of skepticism is healthy. We should not be soconvinced of our own version of truth that we become incapable of explaining it to the rest of the world withoutthat necessary insertion of faith.
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Re: Who are the sceptics?

Virgo Dei
Genetrix« Reply #92 - on: 13.08.2009 at 18:05 [UT+1] »MemberQuote from realworld on 13.08.2009 at 17:52 [UT+1]:
Quote from Karen Roland on 11.08.2009 at 11:44 [UT+1]:
Just an interesting general observation
I have been interested in spirituality for a long time now (and I would include astrology under this heading, because
although factual and stuff it still requires an element of faith) and I am generally very inquisitive and open about this.
However I do find that when I meet certain people (read: mostly dates) I instinctly don't volunteer this info or if I do, I
downplay it slightly.

b andaaries men and they have ALL been of the 'astrology is a load of mumbo-jumbo' vareity. Is that a co-incidence? Or is
These people invariably turn out to be sceptics. Now this may just be perculiar to me... as I have dated mostly
there something in this?
Who do you find to be the sceptics?

Posts: 4677
I am beginning to worry about this thread, because there is a growing attitude - always present on the forum - that there is something
wrong with sceptics for not having the neccessary faith to believe in astrology. We like to "diagnose" them, pinpointing a planetary aspectthat would explain their "illness".
Isn't this a bit similar to religious bigotry? The Spanish inquisition used more violent methods to reveal lack of faith in what they believed
was "the truth" - we just use horoscopes.
I personally believe in the value of astrology, having enough subjective evidence to swing the balance in its favor, after weighing it up withmore rational, objective explanations. My Virgo planets also make me more of a critic than a skeptic. But I am uncomfortable at how theastrological community separates itself from the more rational, scientifically minded community, into an astrologcial "bubble".

As another poster said (I think it was Dr. Koo), a certain amount of skepticism is healthy. We should
not be so convinced of our own version of truth that we become incapable of explaining it to the rest of the world without that necessary
insertion of faith.

I see your point and, it is a point well taken with me. I don't usually like to get nit-picky about semantics andI'm really pretty flexible about the use of words/language--- and even sometimes appreciate creative
applications of certain words--- HOWEVER, I think "a healthy amount of skepticism" should be replaced with thesingle word "discernment". I think embracing the positive qualities of the f/6th House energies is the key.
I think there is a subtle difference between the uses of the words "skepticism" and "discernment" but, I think
the difference is also significant. And, remember Virgo is a mutable sign-- it is capable of that kind offlexibility.... ie. "We should not be so convinced of our own version of the truth..." So, yes, I think it is healthy
to have the Virgo Discrimination.
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OnceSceptical

Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #93 - on: 13.08.2009 at 18:13 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 13.08.2009 at 17:52 [UT+1]:
I am beginning to worry about this thread, because there is a growing attitude - always present on the forum - that there is something
wrong with sceptics for not having the neccessary faith to believe in astrology. We like to "diagnose" them, pinpointing a planetary aspectthat would explain their "illness".

As another poster said (I think it was Dr. Koo), a certain amount of skepticism is healthy. We should not be so convinced of our own
version of truth that we become incapable of explaining it to the rest of the world without that necessary insertion of faith.

Actually, this kind "diagnosing" attitude is present in other threads as well, not just about scepticism: people
with limited knowledge of astrology love to go on about how this or that aspect is connected to this or thatvice in some person's chart they had a conflict with or who left them/used them/disappointed them etc etc.
I think there's no need to worry about this thread - there is certainly a healthy dose of scepticism around here
And if Karen (our OP) doesn't mind, we can continue discussing Herman Hesse's chart as well...?
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OnceSceptical
Ex Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #94 - on: 13.08.2009 at 18:18 [UT+1] »For me scepticism is not a negative concept but I agree with you, Juliet, f discernment is much more precise!
Actually, I've been thinking of changing my name here for some time, just waiting for the inspiration as to what
it should be
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Karen Roland

Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #95 - on: 13.08.2009 at 20:15 [UT+1] »If I wasn't so busy I'd go read about Hesse myself.... honest!
I think folks are kind of sceptic'ed out so please do carry on.

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Eudaimonia
Member

Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #96 - on: 16.08.2009 at 02:49 [UT+1] »Some great ideas here and also feelings...
This thread has got me thinking about grouping thoughts/feelings, eg as if there are 'primary' thoughts

Posts: 303/feelings ie the most important to health and well-being, in which case up there amongst these 'primary'thoughts/feelings, would be hope and its negative, fear.
I'm not a natural duallist ( fought against it academically) but as a frame it has its uses. Skepticism or
sceptiscism pertains to definition/doubt/prejudiice/ critcism/ fear/analysis/qualification/denial... ok I haveprobably missed a few more. These descriptors kind of tend to the 'fear' side of human experience. But is 'fear'
bad? Doesn't 'fear' have a purpose? Is that purpose evil or wrong or damaged? Ultimately we all recognise that
if 'fear' does have any use whatsoever, its as a protective function. Our parents/guardians teach us caution
crossing a road blah blah. So its useful - vital - on a functional level.
When we label or ascribe 'scepticism' (Brit here - sorry) to another, it's often in the context of them 'raining on
our parade' (as if rain is bad!) ie disapproving. But as in the above example, its nothing to do with approval or
dispproval. Maybe our reaction to scepticism is coloured by some distant toilet training battle of wills, and now
anyone who raises a query or appears to challenge us, we see as 'damaging', oroverly restrictive!
In any case I don't think of any single planet as sceptical. I'm inclined to agree with the 'mutable' theory
thought, and its interesting that the mutable cross has Mercury doubling rulership of Gemini and Virgo, andJupiter ruling Pisces and Sag. Neither the cardinal or fixed cross has 1 planet ruling 2 of the same triplicity. So
mutable signs seem disposed to being in 'two minds', neither one or the other. Either disposed to allowing /seeking to contain everything all at once - or selecting one at a time, discretely taking this now that. With one,
we lose the foreground, with the other, the background.The whole concept of different levels, dimensions,
possiblitlies seems wrapped up in the symbolism of the mutable cross.
I also quite like Stephens' 'false' sceptics as the prejudiced masquerading as informed critcs, versus 'true'
sceptics' as open-minded hypotheses testers, but the truth is we all participate in both. Its a general conditionof humanity. And in fact his grouping isn't unlike the above grouping of mutable signs - the open versus thecritcs.

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Adrienn

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Re: Who are the sceptics?
« Reply #97 - on: 18.09.2009 at 07:41 [UT+1] »Eudaimonia,
I just read again this old post of yours which now I see as a very good conclusion for the 'debate' that went on
here and referring to the mutable cross is very insightful. Also the point that the different poles are ruled by
Jupiter or Mercury, concentrating on either the whole or the part, the general or the specific, trying tointegrate or to analyse/differentiate.

Also I've recently had my share of being criticised for promoting "fear" when I stressed the importance of dataprotection issues on the astro feedback thread, containing no factual arguments just "grand ideas" and personal
testimonies.
I was surprised how emotional people got and how many suggested indirectly that people notwilling to use their real name in this forum are "paranoid" I really felt it was like the phenomenon you described
here:
Maybe our reaction to scepticism is coloured by some distant toilet training battle of wills, and now anyone who
raises a query or appears to challenge us, we see as 'damaging', overly restrictive!
Mind you, I was not the one who started the thread with the hysterical title, and I think that poor sour should just have figured out (or possibly have been
given more clear info on) how the system works before putting up several posts and then she wouldn't have been shocked when it became clear to her that
all her posts have become part of her profile

Anyway, I've just removed all references to scepticism from my screen name (and chose something very simply
personal but not identifiable) as scepticism seems to be a red flag for some people - or like a red rag to abull
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