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Analytical Psychology and Astrology (Read 748 times)

emeraldhelix
Ex Member

Analytical Psychology and Astrology« on: 21.01.2015 at 09:12 [UT] »HelloI've been going through this weird-thinking period lately and somehow, today morning, it led me right into
Jung's arms.
What bothers me is that I sincerely cannot make my mind as to the planetary role in this way of approaching ..
well.. Life.
(I suppose it's known for most but I will provide the little picture in case it was not)My question is :Is every planet functional on every level or are there specific bodies that function only on certain levels ? If yes,
how would this division look like ?
My first understanding was :Ego - Inner Planets (ABCDEFG )Superego - Outer Planets (HI ) ( after rethinking I would also move FG here )ID - TNOs ( J up to Sedna )How accurate is that division ? Is there any "official" division ?
Or maybe it's more like every planet is three-folded in a way, present on every single level but working
differently on every one of them?

I'm very new to this idea since the last time I heard "more" about Jung ( except for random pop-ups in conversation and pretty well-known ego-superego
concept ) was aproximately 15 years ago when my psychologist mother tried to hook me on her passion. Therefore I apologize for every stupid question I
ask.

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~Artemis~

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology

Ex Member« Reply #1 - on: 21.01.2015 at 10:01 [UT] »I think they say that anything you have in your 12th house is operating unconsciously and is apparent toothers, but not to you.
Perhaps also if you have a strong Neptune, you are going to be swayed by the ID tides. I would also put Pluto
down there in the ID.
Generally, I think Jung said that until we make the unconscious conscious, it will rule our lives and wewill call it 'fate'. At least most astrologers are becoming very conscious of their internal dynamics.
People who have never self-examined, who operate their lives in fairly predictable and programmed ways, could
be called unconscious. 'They know not what they do....'In an interesting book I'm reading called Transforming Fate into Destiny, it talks about finding your innerauthority, not being swayed by cultural memes about what you should buy, eat, wear, do, etc, that are drilled
into us by parental, social and media influences.
All those cultural memes are unconscious, once we are following them without seriously questioning why we dothat. Sometimes people have these unconscious lives, and then they have a disaster or illness that forces themto take stock and re-think everything, which for some people might mean really thinking for the first time intheir lives.
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Friesiangal
Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #2 - on: 21.01.2015 at 10:50 [UT] »Quote from emeraldhelix on 21.01.2015 at 09:12 [UT]:
HelloPosts: 6820
Gender:I've been going through this weird-thinking period lately and somehow, today morning, it led me right into Jung's arms.
What bothers me is that I sincerely cannot make my mind as to the planetary role in this way of approaching .. well.. Life.
(I suppose it's known for most but I will provide the little picture in case it was not)My question is :[highlight]Is every planet functional on every level or are there specific bodies that function only on certain levels ? If yes,
how would this division look like ?[/highlight]

Hi,
Firstly, I'm not a Jungian or any other kind of psychologist.
Secondly, Jung only 'dabbled' with astrological principles and its relationship to his form of psychology, whereas
he is seen by many (through his follower Ms. Greene?) as the 'grand master' of what is nowadays termed
psychological astrology.
Consequently my personal view of any kind of astrological pyramid comes through what I was taught.....now
many moons ago ....and, I know, astrological interpretation is changing.
Astrologically, the planets that have a personal effect are BCDE,
the planets that have a societal effect are FG,
the planets that have a mass generational effect are OIJ.
If Chiron (N) is used, it could be interpretted as the bridge/breakthrough between the different realms.
I'm sure you've already made that association yourself.
Then you get the quadrant influence of the houses.
Personal, 1,2,3
personal-social, 4,5,6
social-societal, 7,8,9
societal-collective(universal) 10,11,12.
Some astrologers might prefer the triad:
personal, 1-4,
Soci(et)al 5-8,
collective, 9-12.
Planets appear to offer 'conscious evolution' for Sun as per their order (of motion) and function; B thru J.
This was called 'stepping stones', meaning you can't reach the next planet without having engaged with the one
before.
Put a planet in a sign and you get an expression of experience,put a planet in a house and you get a realm of expression experience.
Put a planet in one the quadrants and the planet functions through a specific environment.
I guess the element significance through sign and house is self-explanatory.
Isn't there another pyramid used in psychology, beginning with primal needs (B). Maslow ?
There does seem to be some corroboration with the order of astrological planets.
My 1/2 cent.
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Matrika Matters

Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #3 - on: 22.01.2015 at 07:40 [UT] »Hi there,I think Jung's work on a) archetypes and b) synchronicity may offer you some leads that you may apply to yourquestion.
Posts: 7405

He had some additional categories that are not included in your diagram that are relvant in termas of his own
approach to astrology.
His work on those above mentioned areas (archetypes and sychronicity) are concise and readily available in may
publications...hope they may be of relevance to you.
Best wishes.

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Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology

Ex Member« Reply #4 - on: 22.01.2015 at 19:46 [UT] »Quote from emeraldhelix on 21.01.2015 at 09:12 [UT]:
HelloI've been going through this weird-thinking period lately and somehow, today morning, it led me right into Jung's arms.
What bothers me is that I sincerely cannot make my mind as to the planetary role in this way of approaching .. well.. Life.
(I suppose it's known for most but I will provide the little picture in case it was not)My question is :Is every planet functional on every level or are there specific bodies that function only on certain levels ? If yes, how would this division
look like ?
My first understanding was :Ego - Inner Planets ( ABCDEFG )Superego - Outer Planets ( HI ) ( after rethinking I would also move FG here )ID - TNOs ( J up to Sedna )How accurate is that division ? Is there any "official" division ?
Or maybe it's more like every planet is three-folded in a way, present on every single level but working differently on every one of them?

I'm very new to this idea since the last time I heard "more" about Jung ( except for random pop-ups in conversation and pretty wellknown ego-superego concept ) was aproximately 15 years ago when my psychologist mother tried to hook me on her passion. Therefore I
apologize for every stupid question I ask.

Hi Emeraldhelix, just wanted to point out to you that the model with Ego, Superego and Id is Freud's model,
not Jung's.
Jung's model of consciousness looks more like below.
He worked with the "personal unconscious", and the "collective unconscious".
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Jung.jpg

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_Anna_Ex Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #5 - on: 22.01.2015 at 20:09 [UT] »(Speaking of Jung's model here)
I think all bodies/planets can work on all levels. (Well, perhaps the "ego" level excluded.)I think the planets can have different expressions on the different levels.
Perhaps they are in their purest form in the collective unconscious (where the archetypes dwell, according toJung).
The archetypes "translate down" to the level of the the personal unconscious where psychological complexes
belong. So if you have a Moon/Saturn hard aspect you probably have a "mother complex".
Then the "ego level", well that is just you, the one who looks at the birthchart, and at the stars, and inwardly,
and outwardly, and studies Jung, and does dreamwork... who can be a very unaware person, or who can be a
person who has worked a lot with his/her depths, both psychological complexes and more pure archetypes,
having had numinous experiences, becoming a more whole Self.
Perhaps.
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #6 - on: 22.01.2015 at 20:26 [UT] »From what I remember being taught about Freud, the Id is subconsciousness, the Ego is self consciousness andthe Super Ego is both transcendental and moral. So correlating that to what I subsequently learned abouttarot, kabalah and esoteric astrology, Id would be the Moon, Venus and Ego would be the Sun, which in turnwould be a collecting center for Venus, Mercury, Mars and Jupiter. The Super Ego, at least if we try to correlate
it to the kabalistic Tree Of Life would therefore be Saturn (Cosmic Law/Understanding), Uranus (light/Wisdom),
Neptune (Oneness) and Pluto.

Posts: 2454

http://complete-angel-sanctuary.angelfire.com/

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Friesiangal

Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #7 - on: 23.01.2015 at 09:32 [UT] »Quote from Teapot on 22.01.2015 at 20:26 [UT]:From what I remember being taught about Freud, the Id is subconsciousness, the Ego is self consciousness and the Super Ego isboth transcendental and moral. So correlating that to what I subsequently learned about tarot, kabalah and esoteric astrology, Id

would be the Moon, Venus and Ego would be the Sun, which in turn would be a collecting center for Venus, Mercury, Mars andPosts: 6820
Gender:Jupiter. The Super Ego, at least if we try to correlate it to the kabalistic Tree Of Life would therefore be Saturn (Cosmic
Law/Understanding), Uranus (light/Wisdom), Neptune (Oneness) and Pluto.
http://complete-angel-sanctuary.angelfire.com/

Hi Teapot and Anna, and anyone else,
As written earlier, I am not a psychologist and only took two 3-month once weekly evening courses last century,
which explained the different areas of psychology and the personal and collective influential effects.
Unfortunately, the 3rd and most interesting course for me, 'clinical psychology', did not take place in my area,
nor did I have the money to do the 3 year professional training.
My query is therefore to gain understanding of the psychological concept as it pertains to astrologicalinterpretation.
The words 'identity' and 'identify' begin with ID. A person is known by his id-entity, he can be asked to id-entify
himself.
This would suggest ( or imply) that the ID must be and/or have a (semi)conscious state. How otherwise can aperson be aware to know who he is (not?) to be able to identify himself? Some astrologers apply the identity ofa person to the Ascending sign because the 1st house is 'Who I am'. This would seem to be a major
contradiction of the ID coming under the functional influence of the Moon.
During a course discussion about the 'UNconscious' state, it seemed to be the assessment that it was better
not to consciously disturb and/or try to tamper with its 'content', whatever that implies.
The Moon is generally applied to the sub-conscious (available memory?)state, so where does the UNconscious
state find its astrological equivalent? Is it found in a planetary function or through the 8th and/or 12th houses,
as is often said.
It's the one area I have never been able to adequately get a handle on.
Hoping you....or anyone...an offer me some insight without getting too ' UNgrounded' for my Earthly nature.

Many thanks.
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IP LoggedBanditEx Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #8 - on: 23.01.2015 at 10:10 [UT] »Identity - Late Latin identitās, equivalent to Latin ident (idem) repeatedly, again and again, earlier *idem etidem (idem neuter of īdem the same + et and) + -itās -ity
Conversion is a process of changing identity. The word implies a version is created by repeated impressions of acultural norm established with vocal persuasion
Latin versiōn- (stem of versiō) a turning, equivalent to vers (us) (past participle of vertere to turn; see verse )+ -iōn- -ion
You become what you think which is off course giving rise to psychological problems.
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alice bEx Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #9 - on: 23.01.2015 at 12:03 [UT] »I would put Saturn in the Superego category. The Superego, at least with the Freudian model, as the part ofthe "mind" as the part that uses such words as "must, ought, should". These messages can come from thefamily environment as well as society.
It is my understanding that the "personal planets" energy which we are consciously aware of which can be
modified by house placements such as the 12th and 8th houses or those planets that are in intercepted houses.
Saturn is a little more trickier in that it can operate on the individual, societal, and some would say"karma"level.
The ID often refers to what most of us would consider "drives" such as sexual, self preservation ,hunger/appetite.p
All of the planets can have energies which most would describe as both positive and/or negative.
Freud believed that the Superego and Id were often in conflict which caused distress to the ego. In Freud'stime a common example in women was the conflict of their sexual drive v societal expectations of how a "good"
woman operated.
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #10 - on: 23.01.2015 at 15:39 [UT] »Quote from Friesiangal on 23.01.2015 at 09:32 [UT]:

As written earlier, I am not a psychologist and only took two 3-month once weekly evening courses last century, which explained thedifferent areas of psychology and the personal and collective influential effects. Unfortunately, the 3rd and most interesting course for me,'clinical psychology', did not take place in my area, nor did I have the money to do the 3 year professional training.
My query is therefore to gain understanding of the psychological concept as it pertains to astrological interpretation.
The words 'identity' and 'identify' begin with ID. A person is known by his id-entity, he can be asked to id-entify himself.

Posts: 2454

This would suggest ( or imply) that the ID must be and/or have a (semi)conscious state. How otherwise can a person be aware to know
who he is (not?) to be able to identify himself? Some astrologers apply the identity of a person to the Ascending sign because the 1sthouse is 'Who I am'. This would seem to be a major contradiction of the ID coming under the functional influence of the Moon.

I don't think that anyone has developed a theory which is scientifically testable, like the way the physical bodyworks or the rules of nutrition in medicine, but the rough Freudian and Jungian distinctions of the psyche doseem to be useful in modern psychological practice., along with experimental evidence for techniques like CBT Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. When I was last in London I visited Freud's house in Hampstead and saw hiscollection of artifacts from Egypt and the Middle East, underlining how he was influenced by these culture's
myths. My own experience of modern psychology is that I studied Psychology at university, and also went tosome counselling/therapy after my husband died.
Re the Id and identity: as we know from astrology theory, people identify with their Moon sign when they arechildren. I'm not sure when astrologers think that childhood ends, but I've also heard astrologers say that they
identify with their Moon sign ("inside") all their lives. Steven Forrest calls the moon something like our "feelingpart" or our heart - whereas our Sun sign is how we create in on the outside. The metaphor of shining like theSun and reflecting like the Moon comes to mind.
Quote:

During a course discussion about the 'UNconscious' state, it seemed to be the assessment that it was better not to consciously disturb
and/or try to tamper with its 'content', whatever that implies.
The Moon is generally applied to the sub-conscious (available memory?)state, so where does the UNconscious state find its astrologicalequivalent? Is it found in a planetary function or through the 8th and/or 12th houses, as is often said.
It's the one area I have never been able to adequately get a handle on.

I have often thought about this connection between our personal subconscious and the UNconscious that wesee presented in Jung and which is the focus of Liz Greene's theories in her book The Outer Planets And Their
Cycles. I think an answer is presented in kabalah and tarot, where our personal subconscious is imagined as alake and the universal subconscious is an ocean. We see the rivers ans streams connecting them in the tarot
keys representing the Water signs, like Cheth, Cancer/The Chariot.
This is how we explain psychism and emotional sensitivity, theoretically. The principle is also seen on the Tree Of
Life, where the "Divine Feminine" or High Priestess connects the One ineffable to the central Ego or Imaging
center. (Please see diagram cited a few pages back). On the diagram, we also see how the tarot keys connect
the different spheres or sephirot of consciousness. So it's not as simple as Neptune (The Hanged Man) , forexample, ruling just the top Shere. Neptune also connects Geburah/Will (Mars) to Hod/Intellect (Mercury),
reversing what we think of as personal processes are really connected to the whole picture.
"RWS Tarot 07 Chariot" by Pamela Coleman Smith - Wikimedia, Public Domain

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RWS_Tarot_07_Chariot.jpg

IP LoggedBanditEx Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #11 - on: 23.01.2015 at 15:45 [UT] »Quote from Teapot on 23.01.2015 at 15:39 [UT]:
So it's not as simple as Neptune (The Hanged Man) , for example, ruling just the top Sphere. Neptune also connects Geburah/Will (Mars)
to Hod/Intellect (Mercury), reversing what we think of as personal processes are really connected to the whole picture.

Makers for perfect sense.
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emeraldhelix
Ex Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #12 - on: 23.01.2015 at 19:33 [UT] »Thank You Artemis, Friesiangal, Matrika, Anna, Teapot, Bandit, alice b
It's funny how I knew completely nothing (even confused the guys) and now I have pretty solid base to startsome more extensive study
I really aprreciate Your time a lot.
Faroe. Thank You.
The table is very plain and extremely helpful
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Friesiangal

Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #13 - on: 24.01.2015 at 09:47 [UT] »Thank you for the explanation, Teapot. I 'dabbled' with the tarot (with amazing mundane correspondences!)many years ago but have never studied the law of kabalah.

Posts: 6820
Gender:There's still some confusion in my logical mind regarding the astrological correspondences to the different
states of consciousness. Do they fall under a planet (function) or a realm of experience (house), and/or are thewater signs significant irrespective of house placement, as all relate to life on Earth? I'll have to ponder somemore whilst I still can.
emeraldhelix
Quote:
It's funny how I knew completely nothing (even confused the guys) and now I have pretty solid base to start some more extensive study

When you find the answers, let me know as well.
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Faroe
Ex Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #14 - on: 24.01.2015 at 15:23 [UT] »Quote from emeraldhelix on 23.01.2015 at 19:33 [UT]:Thank You Artemis, Friesiangal, Matrika, Anna, Teapot, Bandit, alice b
It's funny how I knew completely nothing (even confused the guys) and now I have pretty solid base to start some more extensive study
I really aprreciate Your time a lot.
Faroe. Thank You.
The table is very plain and extremely helpful

You're welcome. Unfortunately it was copyright protected so I removed it.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #15 - on: 24.01.2015 at 18:35 [UT] »Quote from Friesiangal on 24.01.2015 at 09:47 [UT]:There's still some confusion in my logical mind regarding the astrological correspondences to the different states of consciousness. Do theyfall under a planet (function) or a realm of experience (house), and/or are the water signs significant irrespective of house placement, as
all relate to life on Earth? I'll have to ponder some more whilst I still can.

Posts: 2454

Hi Friesangal,
Take a look at these informative videos by Maggy Whitehouse on the Tree Of Life; I think they might answer
your question. I had always thought of houses as corresponding to the physical level and signs to thepsychological level, and as the videos show, there are several ways of portraying this on the tree(s). All thebest,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F-6W2-aJes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuMwxsyHQdE

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Rhythm9

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology

Member« Reply #16 - on: 26.01.2015 at 02:30 [UT] »Friesiengal, just in relation to what you said:
Quote:
Posts: 826

Jung only 'dabbled' with astrological principles and its relationship to his form of psychology, whereas he is seen by many (through his
follower Ms. Greene?) as the 'grand master' of what is nowadays termed psychological astrology.

I might be wrong here, but the first psychological Astrologer I can think of (in relation to Jungian inspired
Astrology) is that of his second eldest daughter, Gret Baumann Jung. She wrote an excellent article where she
integrates psychology with astrology in discussing her father's natal chart. Here is a link for her chart by
Astrodatabank. There is a picture of her sitting with Liz Greene in her elderly years:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Baumann-Jung,_Gret
A link to her article in the Quadrant titled: A Psychological Approach to Astrology and the Aquarian age. (1969)
http://www.cgjungny.org/q/p/q0n04.html#q0n04b
I have this article somewhere in my home, but will have to search to find it. I highly recommend it as I recall
delighting in its psychological insights regarding her father's chart. I have only now looked at her natal chart(first link above) and find it interesting that her Moon is in the same sign of her father's Sun, and her Sun signand other personal planets are in the sign of her father's Aquarius ascendant. It tells me she inherited his life
image on an inward level (Moon) and identified subjectively and in thought with his persona. Because of her
Aquarius emphasis, she continued to innovate through Astrology her psychological affinity with him.

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Friesiangal

Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #17 - on: 27.01.2015 at 09:00 [UT] »Quote from Rhythm9 on 26.01.2015 at 02:30 [UT]:Friesiengal, just in relation to what you said:
Quote:

Posts: 6820
Gender:Jung only 'dabbled' with astrological principles and its relationship to his form of psychology, whereas he is seen by many
(through his follower Ms. Greene?) as the 'grand master' of what is nowadays termed psychological astrology.

I might be wrong here, but the first psychological Astrologer I can think of (in relation to Jungian inspired Astrology) is that of his second
eldest daughter, Gret Baumann Jung. A link to her article in the Quadrant titled: A Psychological Approach to Astrology and the Aquarianage. (1969)
http://www.cgjungny.org/q/p/q0n04.html#q0n04b
I have this article somewhere in my home, but will have to search to find it. I highly recommend it as I recall delighting in its
psychological insights regarding her father's chart. I have only now looked at her natal chart (first link above) and find it interesting that
her Moon is in the same sign of her father's Sun, and her Sun sign and other personal planets are in the sign of her father's Aquarius
ascendant. It tells me she inherited his life image on an inward level (Moon) and identified subjectively and in thought with his persona.
Because of her Aquarius emphasis, she continued to innovate through Astrology her psychological affinity with him.

Thank you Rhythm9.
Pity it is only a link to purchasing the book, and not an article for astrological prosterity via the net.
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Rhythm9
Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #18 - on: 27.01.2015 at 10:44 [UT] »I AGREE!
I remember having searched and bought the whole journal for about $10 as I was lucky to find a second handone. If it were legal I would happily type it up and share it on the net myself. It should be a classic and it darnPosts: 826

well should be accessible to the public!!! Let me know if you can think of any way in which I could get this tohappen. I can't believe such a gem is still veiled in an old magazine.

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Diane

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology

Member« Reply #19 - on: 30.01.2015 at 02:08 [UT] »Psychological astrology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_astrology
The extensive Wikipedia article doesn't include Darling and Oliver who reference Jung in their book:
Posts: 338

Astropsychiatry, by Harry F. Darling and Ruth Hale Oliver, CSA Press, Lakemont, Georgia 30552, 1973;
Copyright 1968 and 1972 by Harry F. Darling; Standard Book Number 0-87707-111-X. This book is an enlarged
and revised edition of the original title ORGANUM QUATERNI first published by CSA Press in 1968. It includes
tables:Table 1, Equation of leading Psychological and Philosophical Terms With Astrological Ones.
Table 2, The James-Jung Self, With Astrological Equivalents. (the planets)
It is a good book, and sorry I'm unable to reproduce the tables here.

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Friesiangal
Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #20 - on: 30.01.2015 at 09:28 [UT] »Quote from Diane on 30.01.2015 at 02:08 [UT]:
Psychological astrology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_astrology
The extensive Wikipedia article doesn't include Darling and Oliver who reference Jung in their book:

Posts: 6820
Gender:Astropsychiatry, by Harry F. Darling and Ruth Hale Oliver, CSA Press, Lakemont, Georgia 30552, 1973; Copyright1968 and 1972 by Harry F. Darling; Standard Book Number 0-87707-111-X. This book is an enlarged and revised edition of the original
title ORGANUM QUATERNI first published by CSA Press in 1968. It includes tables:
Table 1, Equation of leading Psychological and Philosophical Terms With Astrological Ones.
Table 2, The James-Jung Self, With Astrological Equivalents. (the planets)
It is a good book, and sorry I'm unable to reproduce the tables here.

I have a large part of his 'Essentials of Medical astrology' on file, found through a Google books link. A lot ofwhat he writes goes off on a tangent with the considered astro. rulerships of the physical body.....yet not in a
detrimental manner. Very thought provoking.
I checked under both names and, unfortunately, there is no site that produces parts of 'Astropsychiatry' via thenet. There were some links that used the book in their own astro. articles....mostly involving the criminal mind.
The book/revision is now over 40+years old. I wonder if much has changed in psychiatrical diagnoses since thatwould affect the thoughts he expressed in the book.

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ganglion

Ex Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #21 - on: 31.01.2015 at 00:00 [UT] »Before delving in and speculating about possible astrological correlations between ego, id and superego, itwould be wise to first thoroughly study Freud's original concepts. The Wikipedia has a good starting point.
Id, ego and super-ego
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego
Quote:The id (Latin for "it")[3] is the unorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the
only component of personality that is present from birth.[4] It is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly
our sexual and aggressive drives.
....
According to Freud the id is unconscious by definition: "It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it wehave learned from our study of the Dreamwork and of the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of that is of a negative characterand can be described only as a contrast to the ego. We approach the id with analogies: we call it a chaos, a cauldron full of seething
excitations. ... It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organization, produces no collective will, but only a
striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle."[8]In the id, "contrary impulses exist side by side, without cancelling each other out. ... There is nothing in the id that could be comparedwith negation ... nothing in the id which corresponds to the idea of time."[9]Developmentally, the id precedes the ego; i.e., the psychic apparatus begins, at birth, as an undifferentiated id, part ofwhich then develops into a structured ego. Thus, the id: "contains everything that is inherited, that is present at birth, is laid down in theconstitution—above all, therefore, the instincts, which originate from the somatic organization, and which find a first psychical expression
here (in the id) in forms unknown to us."[10]...

The mind of a newborn child is regarded as completely "id-ridden", in the sense that it is a mass of instinctive
drives and impulses, and needs immediate satisfaction, a view which equates a newborn child with an id-ridden individual.
The id "knows no judgements of value: no good and evil, no morality. ...

The unknown and primitive weird forces of the "Id" as meant by Freud are in fact the unconscious "animal"
biological life forces that are not or only poorly represented in our horoscope. As medical astrology - if it makes
sense - can only describe the top of the iceberg of the very complex biochemical processes that take place inour body.

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ganglion

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology

Ex Member« Reply #22 - on: 31.01.2015 at 00:35 [UT] »http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego
Quote:The ego (Latin "I")[16] acts according to the reality principle; i.e. it seeks to please the id's drive in realistic ways that will
benefit in the long term rather than bring grief.[17] At the same time, Freud concedes that as the ego "attempts to mediate between id
and reality, it is often obliged to cloak the Ucs. [Unconscious] commands of the id with its own Pcs. [ Preconscious ] rationalizations, toconceal the id's conflicts with reality, to profess ... to be taking notice of reality even when the id has remained rigid and unyielding."[18]The reality principle that operates the ego is a regulating mechanism that enables the individual to delay gratifying immediate needs andfunction effectively in the real world. An example would be to resist the urge to grab other people's belongings, but instead to purchasethose items.[19]The ego is the organized part of the personality structure that includes defensive, perceptual, intellectual-cognitive, andexecutive functions. Conscious awareness resides in the ego, although not all of the operations of theego are conscious. Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic
functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of
information, intellectual functioning, and memory.[1] The ego separates out what is real. It helps us to organize ourthoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.[1] " The ego is that part of the id which has been
modified by the direct influence of the external world. ... The ego represents what may be calledreason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions ... in its relation to the id it
is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do sowith his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces."[20] Still worse, "it serves three severe masters ... the external world, thesuper-ego and the id."[18]Here the dualistic Wikipedia editors get into trouble, implicitly using the well known dualistic presumptions:Without brains there can be no consciousness (and Ego function).
Animals have brains, with unconscious Id life instincts.
Ego functions support the long time survival (Dawkins: of the selfish genes) of the I
Man has an a partly (read potentially) more conscious Ego, residing according to Freud and other brain
researchers in its mainly unconscious id brain (the brain is Id, as its part of a body that we still do not fully
grasp: the more scientist grasp, the greater the mystery) .
Now the existential problem is that it is impossible to separate the social brain/ ego/ I from the body and its
social environment. Shoot my body in the void/vacuum Universe and it will implode. We need (like theCreator) others to express and reflect ourselves, and we need parents and educators to teach us an to begin
with world-view. Otherwise we cannot express ourselves in the undetermined, but maybe original and not
knotted world noodle soup. We need confrontations to know that we exist.
We (the Ego) might believe that what we see (Our Ego) is unique, but we did not invent the content of thelanguage (our reference point, let alone the divine gift of comprehending language ), our parents thought us(as a necessarily starting point in our life). And modern astrologers did not invent astrology. We were thusborn in a cave with a mystery riddle.
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ganglion

Ex Member

Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology« Reply #23 - on: 31.01.2015 at 01:30 [UT] »Now Freud stated: "Wo Es war, soll Ich werden"
Or Es (Id/It/That is it) should become into the conscious realm.
The Instance of the Letter in the Unconscious, or Reason Since Freud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Instance_of_the_Letter_in_the_Unconscious,_or_R eas Quote:
on_Since_Freud
The Instance of the Letter in the Unconscious, or Reason Since Freud is an essay by the psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan, originally delivered
as a talk on May 9, 1957 and later published in Lacan's 1966 book Écrits.
Lacan begins the essay by declaring it to be "situated halfway" between speech and writing. By doing so, he foreshadows both the essay's
notorious opacity and its theme: the relationship between speech and language and the place of the subject in relation to both. The paper
represents a key moment in 'his resolutely structuralist notion of the structure of the subject ',[1] as well as in his gradual 'incorporationof the findings of linguistics and anthropology...in the rise of structuralism'.[2]....
With the fleetingness of the subject established, Lacan closes the essay by developing a maxim of Sigmund Freud's: "Wo Es war, soll Ich
werden" (usually translated as: " where the id was, the ego shall be" ). Rather than strengthening the ego as the great
intellectual and ideological rival of Lacanian psychoanalysis, ego psychology, encouraged the patient to do, Lacan claims that theanalysand 'must come to the place where that was...modifying the moorings that anchor his being['.[12]This means breaking out of the metonymy of desire by crossing the bar [citation needed].

Perceiver and Perceived Exist Together as Experience
http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/duality
Quote:
Usually we think of our experience in terms of the duality we have developed as the experiencer and the experienced, the perceiver andthe perceived. In terms of the example of fear, we would say, “There is fear and there is me perceiving the fear.” We think fear exists
someplace on its own, and a perceiver is someplace else, looking and thinking, “Oh look, there is fear.” This is the familiar and assumed
position that we are in some separate place of observation viewing the world and our experience. But when you experience fear, are you
the perceiver separate from the fear? Remember, we are speaking now about the immediate level of direct perception. Can you everseparate in your experience the perception of the fear from the fear itself? It is not possible. The perception of the fear is the same as theexperience of the fear, which is the same as the presence of the fear. It’s as simple as that. The perceiver and the perceived actually exist
together as the experience. If we set aside the duality of the perceiver and the perceived, then what is actually there is consciousness
aware of itself as fear.

The Unconscious: Metaphor and Metonymy | Somatosphere:
http://somatosphere.net/2009/04/unconscious-metaphor-and-metonymy.html Quote:In his 1930s text, ‘the structure of the unconscious,’ Freud described the unconscious as “a fact without parallel, which defies all
explanation or description.” Construed through this very mystifying, if not metaphysical, perspective, the unconscious then remained to be
the single most unknowable and more or less untheorizable element of all observable features of human psychology, and of thepsychoanalytic enterprise as such.
Only a few decades later, however, Lacan managed to bring the unconscious to earth by describing it to be “structured like a language,”
and attributing its genesis to a ‘split’ within the developing human subject. “The psychoanalyst,” he wrote, “spots the subject’s split in thesimple recognition of the unconscious.” The Lacanian formulation of the unconscious was both more theoretically elaborate, and, for anumber of reasons, definitely more successful in seeing the individual in its context and tracing the social/political in theprivate/psychological. Chief among those ‘reasons’ would be the ‘linguistic turn’ that his intellectual maneuvers afforded psychoanalytic
theory.
One of the very useful terms in which Lacan approached his linguistic/semiotic re-formulation of the unconscious was a specific type of
distinction he proposed between metaphor and metonymy. The reason I speak of a ‘specific type of distinction’ is that even though Lacan
relied strongly on Saussure’s and Jakobson’s basic descriptive models and distinctions between the two concepts, he ‘slipped’ significant
changes into their ideas, even where he failed to admit such changes.
...
The main difference between metaphor and metonymy, according to Lacan, is that metaphor functions to suppress, while metonymy
functions to combine. He writes: “it is in the word-to-word connection that metonymy is based,” and then: “one word for another: that is
the formula of metaphor.”
etc

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Re: Analytical Psychology and Astrology

Ex Member« Reply #24 - on: 01.02.2015 at 00:14 [UT] »This is is the situation according to Feud. The Ich (ego), Über-ich (Super-Ego) and especially the Es (id) aremostly unconscious: We are not aware of the greater part of them. As an example: Most people that I meetoutside this Forum are knowledgeable about their Sun sign Ego (I am) type, but only a minority does
spontaneously reflect on it. "I: O, you are an Aries. Aries: Yes, I must always (re)do things all by myself... "Sigmund Freud's graph with second topography (Id, Ego and Super-Ego), published in 1933 in his "Neue Folge
der Vorlesungen zur Einführung in die Psychoanalyse", Kapitel 31 (New Introductury Lectures on PsychoAnalysis, chapter 31)
Now the Ego is supposed it to mediate between the inner Id's and outwardly Societal demands using theReality principle (How to survive) . But to do so, the Ego or Personality has to use manipulative Ego defences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms
Quote:
A defence mechanism is a coping technique that reduces anxiety arising from unacceptable or potentially harmful impulses.[1] Defence
mechanisms, which are unconscious, are not to be confused with conscious coping strategies.[2] Sigmund Freud was one of the first
proponents of this construct.[3]Defence mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which themechanism is used.[4] In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms (German: Abwehrmechanismen) are psychological strategies
brought into play by the unconscious mind[5] to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety andunacceptable impulses to maintain one's self schema.[6] These processes that manipulate, deny, or distort reality may include thefollowing: repression, or the burying of a painful feeling or thought from one's awareness even though it may resurface in a symbolic
form;[4] identification, incorporating an object or thought into oneself;[7] and rationalization, the justification of one's behavior andmotivations by substituting "good" acceptable reasons for the motivations.[4][8] Generally, repression is considered the basis for otherdefence mechanisms.[4]Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent
use leads to maladaptive behaviour such that the physical or mental health of the individual is adversely affected. The purpose ofego defence mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety and/or social sanctions
and/or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.[9]It is a horrible experience to see/realise that the most pathological defence mechanisms are the mostpopular not only in dreams as the Wiki states, but also in current political reality: Denial and distortion ofreality, splitting between the good and bad guys and projection are part of the political game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms#Level%201:%20Immature
Quote:The mechanisms on this level, when predominating, almost always are severely pathological. These six defences, in conjunction, permit
one to effectively rearrange external experiences to eliminate the need to cope with reality. The pathological users of these mechanisms
frequently appear irrational or insane to others. These are the "psychotic" defences, common in overt psychosis. However, they arenormally found in dreams and throughout childhood as well.[22] They include:
Delusional projection: Delusions about external reality, usually of a persecutory nature.
Conversion: The expression of an intrapsychic conflict as a physical symptom; some examples include blindness, deafness, paralysis, or
numbness. This phenomenon is sometimes called hysteria.[23]Denial: Refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn'texist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasantaspects of external reality.
Distortion: A gross reshaping of external reality to meet internal needs.
Splitting: A primitive defence. Both harmful and helpful impulses are split off and unintegrated, frequently projected onto someone else.
The defended individual segregates experiences into all-good and all-bad categories, with no room for ambiguity and ambivalence. When"splitting" is combined with "projecting", the undesirable qualities that one unconsciously perceives oneself as possessing, one consciously
attributes to another.[24]Extreme projection: The blatant denial of a moral or psychological deficiency, which is perceived as a deficiency in another individual orgroup.

To "effectively rearrange external experiences to eliminate the need to cope with reality" is the art of Spindoctors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_%28public_relations%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_of_the_people
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