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The WW2 Holocaust (Read 606 times)

Blue Hills
Ex Member

The WW2 Holocaust« on: 14.04.2007 at 20:00 [UT+1] »Sorry to start yet another topic, but this subject has been bothering me for many years, and it just doesn't
seem to fit in any of the already established threads.
I've read quite a few astrology books that say the same thing: during the early 1940s there were actually quite
harmonious aspects between the outer planets. There was a trine between Uranus and Neptune (which we see inthe birth charts of The Beatles, Bob Dylan and many other inspired musicians). There was also a sextile
between Neptune and Pluto, which was itself trine Jupiter in 1940. So how do we explian the attrocities thatwere going on in Europe towards Jews, homosexuals, political dissidents and gypsies? I know that this was not
the first holocaust/genocide - there was also the Armenian genocide earlier in the 1900s, but perhaps most of
us are directly touched by this one via our parents' generation.
Below is an arbitrary chart for Auschwitz in 1940, with the positions of Chiron and Eris, and their aspects
included. Do these extra bodies (planetoid/comet/asteroid and new planet) make it easier to explain the
Holocaust astrologically?
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Auschwitz1940.gif (attachment deleted)
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capricorn rising

Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #1 - on: 14.04.2007 at 20:16 [UT+1] »my replies on this topic could sound a little controversial or even crazy. what is interesting to note is thatHawaii was never apart of the United States until the early 1950's. Hawaii was just an american interest. they
say that pearl harbor was what got the U.S. involved. its interesting that the U.S. chose to get involved when
they did. they had a few chances to stop Hitler before he got as influencial and powerful as he did. look at the

Posts: 1145

chart for when the U.S. declared war and fired the first shots. i'll bet that it was supported by the harmonousalignments of that particular time. the events of political corruption coupled with the power of the planets
paints a very stunning picture indeed...

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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #2 - on: 14.04.2007 at 21:51 [UT+1] »Hi Blue Hills - In her article about the terrorist attack on the USA, Liz Greene says that there are often benign
aspects in the charts for the inception of war; in the chart of the first World Trade Centre bombing, Mercury on
the Ascendant of the chart made trines to Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Maybe we're wrong about what trines
mean? Actually, it's things like this that make me wonder if I'm using the wrong zodiac (i.e., tropical); even
Hitler's chart, read sidereally, gives him an Aries Sun instead of Taurus, which at first glance would seem more
appropriate.
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IP Logged_Tosh_

Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #3 - on: 14.04.2007 at 23:53 [UT+1] »Hey Blue Hills,
Why January 1st? I read that it wasn't started before March of 1940; gives a completely different chart.

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IP LoggedBlue Hills
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #4 - on: 15.04.2007 at 01:31 [UT+1] »Quote from _Tosh_ on 14.04.2007 at 23:53 [UT+1]:...
Why January 1st? I read that it wasn't started before March of 1940; gives a completely different chart.

I didn't know that, thanks for the info. As mentioned above, I chose January 1 simply because I dont knowmuch about when each camp was started so figured the beginning of the year would kind of give a picture of
the astroligical trends. I've just gotten a PM with some astrological observations from another forum member
who assumed the chart was for the beginning of the camp, so I'm sorry for the confusion. I also chose
Auschwitz (rather than Bergen Belsen or any of many others) because I knew it was in Poland and it was in
Astro.com's atlas.
But, 3 months difference is not going to make all that much difference to the positions of the outer "planets",
which to me would include Jupiter, Saturn, Chiron, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Eris. Please don't pay too muchattention to the Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars or the ascendant as they all would have changed. I also chose 1940 as
it was just 2 years after "Krystallnacht" which the Nazis used to stir up hatred of Jews on a national scale, and it
was far enough into the war (which had started in Europe in 1939) for many people to have been affected).
Quote from Pamela Young: ... In her article about the terrorist attack on the USA, Liz Greene says that there
are often benign aspects in the charts for the inception of war; [/quote]Yes, there would be if we just looked at Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. But maybe Chiron and Eris add
some unbenign aspects.
quote:in the chart of the first World Trade Centre bombing, Mercury on the Ascendant of the chart made trines
to Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. [/quote]
But Saturn was oppostie Pluto (September 11, 2001). In 1940, Saturn was square Pluto, and these planets
show a battle over control and power.
Quote:Maybe we're wrong about what trines mean? Actually, it's things like this that make me wonder if I'musing the wrong zodiac (i.e., tropical); even Hitler's chart, read sidereally, gives him an Aries Sun instead of
Taurus, which at first glance would seem more appropriate.
I don't think we're wrong about trines, but we might still have to incorporate some extra bodies like Chiron andEris into our astrology. Hitler was actually on the cusp - 0degrees Taurus, April 20, 1889. 6.30 pm. Which ever
Zodiac we use, his Sun would still be trine his Moon, and opposite his ascendant. Not exactly indications of afuhrer. Venus and Mars square Saturn - again might have been difficult for him to express love, but not tyrantmaterial. His Moon is opposite Chiron and as Liz Greene (and others on this forum) have pointed out, his
Neptune- Pluto conjuction is in the 8th house with only minor aspects.
To try to make things a little clearer I've posted a chart below for March1, 1940, Auschwitz. As you can see,Jupiter is square Chiron, Saturn is still square Pluto, and Neptune is opposite Eris.
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March11940.gif (attachment deleted)
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #5 - on: 15.04.2007 at 01:50 [UT+1] »"Not exactly indications of a tyrant...not fuhrer material." And yet he WAS the Fuhrer - he WAS a tyrant.
Again - why? If not a different zodiac, what would explain this? I agree with the use of Chiron, but as far as
I'm concerned the jury is still out on Eris; it's too soon to tell what significance it may have, if any. There've
been so many new bodies discovered lately - Sedna, Varuna, Quaouor (not sure of the spelling); they don't all
turn out to have significance for astrology. Maybe Eris will, but it remains to be seen as of right now.
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IP LoggedBlue Hills
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #6 - on: 15.04.2007 at 18:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Pamela Young on 15.04.2007 at 01:50 [UT+1]:
I agree with the use of Chiron, but as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on Eris; ...There've been so many new bodies discovered
lately - Sedna, Varuna, Quaouor; they don't all turn out to have significance for astrology...

Yes, I agree on that. In the kaballah, which I studied as part of my astrology education, there are some quite
strong statements about there being only 10 "sephiroth" or spheres of activity of the One consciousness shownon the Tree of Life, not 9 or 11, or any more. Although there is debate as to which sphere corresponds towhich planet, I've always taken this to mean that theoretically we can explian everything with Sun through
Pluto. So when I read about all these asteroids I just shrugged and went meh, we don't need them. But when I
read about Chiron and how its transits corresponded to some very significant phases in my life, I thought, well,maybe Chiron is the "key" or initiator to understanding all the other planets. In that case, it wouldn't need tofit anywhere on the Tree of Life, or rule any sign, (except maybe Aquarius, as it is found between Saturn and
Uranus??). Also, having too many asteroids in a chart really makes it confusing.
I too don't know what Eris means, but I do know that whatever it means, it's been in the same sign for several
hundred years, and so, if we're looking for something to explain really huge human events like the holocaust, it
might have some relevance.
To make things simpler, below I've posted a chart for March 1, 1940, with no ascendant (I also did this with the
U.S.A. chart) - Aries is on the ascendant and the houses become the signs. I've also taken out Eris, so we cansee more clearly the aspects between the planets. Re Hitler - maybe his Moon opposite Chiron make him
terribly emotionally wounded and more prone to trying to lord it over everyone in Germany to try to solve his
own problems.
There is a very interesting book by E. Alan Meece, called Horoscope For The New Millennium in which the author
proposes a "Horoscope for the Modern World" - it is drawn up for the Neptune-Pluto conjuction of the 1880s.
I've also read comments that Charlie Chaplain was born just a few days before Hitler (April 16, 1889) and was
obviously not a dictator, but in his chart the Neptune-Pluto conjunction is in the 7th house.
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Mercury

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #7 - on: 15.04.2007 at 19:07 [UT+1] »Transits are to be applied to national charts,charts of political leaders etc You can not judge transits taken
anone.
For example the terrorist attack of 9/11 was bad for the USA but it was not bad at all for the terrorists. Anotherexample.
Look at what happens in Irak at the moment. Bad transits? But why nothing bad happens to countries like
Australia,orCanada lets say. Where do the "bad" planetary influenses go in their cases?

The universe doesn't think in terms of politics. It doesn't think in terms of good and bad. It does haveits own purposes. So if you want to see what is good or bad and for who is good or bad you have to apply
transits
to other charts. In this way you can have the real picture.
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kismetMember

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #8 - on: 15.04.2007 at 20:02 [UT+1] »To be more specific, it is good to compare transits, charts to people and countries specifically. However, we are
all part of the collective consciousness, --as above, so below/heaven human/earth--nman is a microcosm of theuniverse(macrocosm). In Cosmos and Psyche Richard Tarnas shows how cycles have correlated with different
events and conditions in the world and collective psyche of the times.
Posts: 21
Gender:In this case, I do think Chiron is a factor-in Cancer-an issue of security needs, nationalism-it squared the Nodes
in Aries/Libra-which is about relationships-issues of assertion and independence vis a vis harmony, cooperation,and peace. Pluto-an instrument of change and transformation, also a descent into the underworlds and the darkis squared Saturn, Venus, and Mars. This will challenge the peace, values, stirs up fears, inflammatory,
aggressive power/events. The reaction to the fears and phobias (in this case projected onto the Jewish
population) is a "cleansing" to restore security and peace. We want to annihilate anything different, safetly is insameness, likeness.
With Pluto trined Mercury --this aspect is important in Hitler's chart--there is a mass hypnosis--people who arein a state of fear will keep perpetuating the same behaviours over and over, and not think for themselves--very
easy to manipulate and control.
In the earlier chart Mars is in Pisces opposing Neptune/Moon--which could indicate victimizationa and religious
persecution--a wounding/aggression (Mars) on the Spiritual (Neptune) and Emotional Psyche (Moon) levels.
Mars/Neptune can by highly spirtual/mystical or highly manipulative, pathological, gross deception. Sacifice,martyrdom. I think it also supports the deception and psychological manipulation of the mass consciousness.
I usually get too confused with adding too many additions to the regular planets, but on another forum, I
believe it was mentioned that Juno was a factor in this. Juno is not only a "marriage" planet, but has beensignificantly placed in times of war and strife as well.

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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #9 - on: 15.04.2007 at 21:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Blue Hills on 15.04.2007 at 18:30 [UT+1]:

In the kaballah, which I studied as part of my astrology education, there are some quite strong statements about there being only 10"sephiroth" or spheres of activity of the One consciousness shown on the Tree of Life, not 9 or 11, or any more. Although there is debate
as to which sphere corresponds to which planet, I've always taken this to mean that theoretically we can explian everything with Sun
through Pluto. So when I read about all these asteroids I just shrugged and went meh, we don't need them. But when I read about Chiron
and how its transits corresponded to some very significant phases in my life, I thought, well, maybe Chiron is the "key" or initiator tounderstanding all the other planets. In that case, it wouldn't need to fit anywhere on the Tree of Life, or rule any sign, (except maybe
Aquarius, as it is found between Saturn and Uranus??). Also, having too many asteroids in a chart really makes it confusing.
Re Hitler - maybe his Moon opposite Chiron make him terribly emotionally wounded and more prone to trying to lord it over everyone inGermany to try to solve his own problems.

Hi Blue Hills - Thanks for this information about the Kaballah. I haven't studied it at all as yet because I wastold it's mysticism, which I always tend to shy away from. But given the correspondences you give to theplanets you've got me interested, so I guess I'll start checking it out. High time, I guess.
With regard to Hitler's chart, I do think Liz Greene gave a very convincing description of what made Hitler tickin her book, "The Outer Planets & Their Cycles". I hadn't read this in a long time, so in I dug it out and had
another look. Given the discussion we've been having here, she gives a rather interesting preamble to heranalysis of the chart:"I would like to begin today with some example charts of famous persons where the outer planets seem to be a
key of some kind to the individual's motivations. I don't mean by this that the outer planets, or anything elsein the horoscope for that matter, will describe such things as genius or greatness for good or evil. It is very
easy to take a chart such as that of Hitler, which is one of the ones I want to discuss, and try to see from it why
he was able to acquire the power he did. But I don't think the chart will tell us that. Without hindsight you
could not really have estimated what this man became. Also, there were many babies born around the sametime as Hitler. I don't think one can look at Hitler's chart, or at Marx's, which is the other one I want todiscuss, and tell from the natal horoscope that these men would have the effect they had on history. But it's
their sensitivity to history that will show, by which I mean their receptivity to the collective currents of theirtimes. This kind of receptivity can of course come out in very different ways. It might drive one personcompletely mad, it might express in another through an artistic medium, it might manifest in a third as apolitical talent, and in a fourth it might never express at all but would provide a very potent psychic
atmosphere which eventually infiltrates the person's children and affects the courses of their lives. But I thinkthat both Hitler and Marx are very good modern examples of men who became lenses for movements that
erupted out of the collective, regardless of any moral judgment we might have on the rightness or wrongnessof those movements.
The outer planets in this horoscope (i.e., Hitler's), or in any other, will not tell the astrologer whether they aregoing to express in a 'right' or 'wrong' way. " (from the first page of Lecture Three, page 55 in my edition).
Going by this, I guess I've been asking too much of astrology.
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cynthpoet
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #10 - on: 15.04.2007 at 21:59 [UT+1] »This topic fascinates me, though mostly out of a sense of Karmic guilt since my maternal grandfather was a
Lutheran pastor in Nazi Germany and, according to my mom, a Nazi sympathizer. This horrifies me. Though I
can do nothing about his actions, I can do my best to honor the memory of those who suffered under thecruelty of Nazi Germany.
I did create some event charts relating to events significant in the rise of Nazi Germany and would like to sharethem in hope of understanding how such horrific events can begin under certain Astrological conditions. This
first one was created around the time of the Nazi takeover of Berlin after Hitler rose to power. It would beinteresting to learn from such a chart so we can look out for similar patterns in the future so we can try to
prevent such events in the future.
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cynthpoet

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #11 - on: 15.04.2007 at 22:35 [UT+1] »Here's the chart I made of the Reischtag Fire event here on Astrodienst. I also did one using Kairon, but thisPullen chart seems more accessable. The event info is:
Berlin, Germany
23 February 1933
21:14
I would like to learn what interpretations could be made through this, though I did do a Pullen deliniation, partof which I will share with everyone here. Please keep in mind that although it refers to a person, it is from an
event chart:
Quote:
Moon in Aquarius and 5th House: This person's emotional nature, moods,
feelings, and caring tendencies is progressive, erratic, revolutionary,idealistic, humanitarian, inventive, and desires individuality. Most often
this manifests in the area of life dealing with finding joy, pleasure, andcreative expression.
Saturn in Aquarius and 4th House: This person's part of mind that is
disciplined, respectful, and solitary is progressive, erratic, revolutionary,idealistic, humanitarian, inventive, and desires individuality. Most often
this manifests in the area of life dealing with imagination, fantasies, innerfeelings, and domestic life. This is a major aspect of their psyche!
Uranus in Aries and 7th House: This person's individuality, desires for change,
and tendency to go against social norms is forceful, energetic, direct,
courageous, and seeks adventure and challenge. Most often this manifests inthe area of life dealing with personal relationships and intimacy.
Retrograde Neptune in Virgo and 11th House: This person's intuitive, spiritual,compassionate, psychic nature is very analytical, critical, modest, helpful,and works toward perfection. Most often this manifests in an independent,
backward, introverted manner, and in the area of life dealing with the
future, life goals, and association with friends and groups. (This bit plays
only a minor part in their psyche.)
Retrograde Pluto in Cancer and 10th House: This person's destiny, and capacity
to transform the self and the outer world is introspective, emotional,
protective, and wants inner and outer security. Most often this manifests in
an independent, backward, introverted manner, and in the area of life dealing
with career, social stature, and destiny.
Mercury Opposite Mars: This person's thoughts, intellect, and communicative
activity opposes and creates tension with their will, energy, activity, andaggressive, assertive tendencies. Balance is needed.
Mercury Opposite Jupiter: This person's thoughts, intellect, and communicative
activity always opposes and creates tension with their enthusiastic,faithful, wise, expansive, spontaneous nature. Balance is needed.
Mercury Opposite Neptune: This person's thoughts, intellect, and communicative
activity somewhat opposes and creates tension with their intuitive,
spiritual, compassionate, psychic nature. Balance is needed.
Mercury Trine Pluto: This person's thoughts, intellect, and communicative
activity is in harmony with their destiny, and capacity to transform the self
and the outer world.
Mercury Conjunct Node: This person's thoughts, intellect, and communicative
activity is somewhat connected and fused together with their karmic goals,
and best direction of evolutionary growth. Both parts are prominent in their
psyche.
Mars Conjunct Jupiter: This person's will, energy, activity, and aggressive,
assertive tendencies is somewhat connected and fused together with their
enthusiastic, faithful, wise, expansive, spontaneous nature. Both parts areprominent in their psyche.
Mars Conjunct Neptune: This person's will, energy, activity, and aggressive,
assertive tendencies is connected and fused together with their intuitive,
spiritual, compassionate, psychic nature. Both parts are prominent in their
psyche.
Mars Opposite Node: This person's will, energy, activity, and aggressive,
assertive tendencies somewhat opposes and creates tension with their karmic
goals, and best direction of evolutionary growth. Balance is needed.
Saturn Square Juno: This person's part of mind that is disciplined, respectful,and solitary is in conflict with their tendency to give away individual power
for the benefit of a relationship. Adaptation is required by both sides.
Saturn Square Vertex: This person's part of mind that is disciplined,
respectful, and solitary is somewhat in conflict with their karmic fate andmethod of reception of energies. Adaptation is required by both sides.
Uranus Square Pluto: This person's individuality, desires for change, andtendency to go against social norms is irreconcilably in conflict with theirdestiny, and capacity to transform the self and the outer world. Adaptationis required by both sides.
Pluto Sextile Chiron: This person's destiny, and capacity to transform the self
and the outer world has much opportunity for growth, exchange, and harmony inrelation with their ability to help, heal, and teach others, and where one
has much experience.
Pluto Square Fortune: This person's destiny, and capacity to transform the self
and the outer world is irreconcilably in conflict with their place where
opportunity and success can be found. Adaptation is required by both sides.
Pluto Square East Point: This person's destiny, and capacity to transform theself and the outer world is irreconcilably in conflict with their generalized
projected personality and outward appearance. Adaptation is required by both sides.

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IP LoggedBlue Hills
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #12 - on: 16.04.2007 at 19:10 [UT+1] »Thanks for your posts Mercury, Kismet, Pamela and Cynth Quote from Mercury:Transits are to be applied to national charts,charts of political leaders etc You can notjudge transits taken anone. For example the terrorist attack of 9/11 was bad for the USA but it was not bad at
all for the terrorists. ...
Look at what happens in Irak at the moment. Bad transits? But why nothing bad happens to countries like
Australia,or Canada lets say. Where do the "bad" planetary influenses go in their cases? The universe doesn't
think in terms of politics. It doesn't think in terms of good and bad. It does have its own purposes. So if you
want to see what is good or bad and for who is good or bad you have to apply transits
to other charts. In this way you can have the real picture.
I think that's a good point. Last time I saw the news about Australia there were terrible forest fires, drought
and animal species dying it, not to mention people arguing over Global Warming/Climate change and who was
responsible. Australia also sent troops to Iraq so I'm sure many families were affected. Canada came into thenews recently because gun murders are increasing, and some people are blaming the availability of weapons
from the U.S. and relaxing of laws. So, I think, even without knowing the exact chart of a country or a city or
when a constitution was formed, we can assume that transiting aspects are affecting everyone's horoscope in
one way or another.
Pamela,Kismet and Cynth: I too have Liz Greene's book The Outer Planets and Their Cycles, and remember the
point about many people being born with the Neptune Pluto conjuction. I'm just thumbing through my copy of"The Circle Book" of charts, and I find Maurice Chevalier, Marc Edmund Jones, Martin Heidegger, Ho Chi Minh,
Dwight Eisenhower, Charles de Gaulle, Oliver Hardy, Mae West, Yogananda, Cole Porter, Harpo Marx, Mao TseTung, Segovia, Nikita Khruschchev, Aldous Huxley, e.e. Cummings, J.Edgar Hoover and Dane Rudhyar, to namea few.
As well as looking at Hitler's chart, and the transits of the 1930s and the 1940s, I think that we cannot denythat the roots of the holocaust are probably written in the New Testament, or at least in the way that theGospels have been interpreted. I think that many people are trying to clarify this sensitive subject right now
because there seems to be a resurgence of anti-semitism in the world and perhaps if we can get to the root of
the cause, we can prevent some of the silly bigotry and hatred among the religions.
I don't feel particularly attached to any religion, even though my physical ancestry has been Jewish or
Christian. My study of astrology has made me view my incarnation this time around as a visit to to understandall that I can, and I'm sure that I've been a Muslim, Pagan and atheist at one time or another. I think that many
people see the current conflict in the Middle East as having its roots in conflict over the phsyical land of Isreal,
and when you combine that with the Bible story of the crucifixion, no wonder there is still a lot that needs to besorted out. We started to discuss this in the post on the forum called Religion:
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1175630659
There has also been a resurgence of interest in the book "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which, is thought tobe an altering of a book first written about the Russian Revolution, made out to be a plot by Jews to take over
the world (as usual). I know it's a vast subject probably deserving a thread of its own, but I mention it because,
when you have people like the president of Iran denying that there was a Holoscaust, I think it's important to
get the truth out and educate people, because ignorance is one of the factors which enabled Hitler to sway theGerman people into their mass hatred.
As pointed out already, Pluto certainly was important in explaining things. Perhaps the most important fact isthat Pluto had only just been discovered in 1930, so no one really understood about psychology, especiallymass psychology and the power issues associated with it. Even Neptune, which is also psychological, but morecorrelated with glamor, illusion, imagery and deception (think of swastika adorned buildings, goose-stepping
men in brown shirts) had only been discovered in the 1840s, and there wasn't the easy access to intellecutal
discussion about psychology and astrology that there is today. So, as you have mentioned, the aspects in thecharts above, all add another "layer" to the causes of the holocaust - the deepest layer going back 2000 years.
Thanks for the 1933 chart Cynth. Chiron isn't shown in your chart, but it was in Taurus, square to the Moon's
Nodes. Pluto is also square Uranus, and there is an very interesting Jupiter-Neptune conjuction. So perhaps allthese factors, on top of Hitler and the anti-semitism inherent (maybe) in the Piscean Age added fuel to the ideaof an extermination factory.
In the March 1940 chart, we have to remember that unknown to most of the world, thousands of people werebeing gassed and incinerated. Well Saturn square Pluto would correlate with that, but Jupiter square Chiron
might also explain how people's ideas about religion (Jupiter) conflicted with the ideas of "wholeness",
expecially regarding families and ancestry (Cancer).
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IP LoggedBlue Hills

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #13 - on: 16.04.2007 at 19:20 [UT+1] »By the way, this is a link to an article about the "Protocols" book mentioned above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #14 - on: 16.04.2007 at 23:04 [UT+1] »Honestly, I can't believe people are bringing up "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" again!! Will this nonsense
EVER stop?! Well, actually, probably not, because Pluto's got to go somewhere. People tend to project it,
rather than face their own.
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cynthpoet

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #15 - on: 17.04.2007 at 00:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Pamela Young on 16.04.2007 at 23:04 [UT+1]:
Honestly, I can't believe people are bringing up "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" again!! Will this nonsense EVER stop?! Well, actually,
probably not, because Pluto's got to go somewhere. People tend to project it, rather than face their own.

I agree with you, Pamela. That book is a fraud, has always been a fraud and will never be anything less than afraud.
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Pamela YoungEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #16 - on: 17.04.2007 at 01:55 [UT+1] »You said it, Cynth!

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Mercury

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #17 - on: 18.04.2007 at 05:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Blue Hills on 16.04.2007 at 19:10 [UT+1]:

I think that's a good point. Last time I saw the news about Australia there were terrible forest fires, drought and animal species dying it,
not to mention people arguing over Global Warming/Climate change and who was responsible. Australia also sent troops to Iraq so I'msure many families were affected. Canada came into the news recently because gun murders are increasing, and some people are

blaming the availability of weapons from the U.S. and relaxing of laws. So, I think, even without knowing the exact chart of a country ora city or when a constitution was formed, we can assume that transiting aspects are affecting everyone's horoscope in one way or another.

My dear, of course there is always something happening in every part of the the worlld in an every day basis.
And of course transits affect everyone's horoscope. But can we really compare the forest fires in Australia (thathappen almost every year this season) or the gun murders increasement in
Canada with the endless war in Irak? Can we compare a cold with cancer?
So, I didn't say that transits influence only some people and some countries and not the others. What I meantwith my comment is that if you want tofind out if a particular transit will affect a country or not and if you want to detect the intensity of this influenceon this particular country and its people,
you have to apply this transit to the national chart of this country. Which houses occupies in this particular
chart? Does it activate some progressed movement in the chart or not? Only in this way you can really judge
the influence of a particular planetary movement. The same transit can affect different people and countries inentirelly different ways.

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joke nEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #18 - on: 18.04.2007 at 10:01 [UT+1] »i do agree totally with mercury
and what we saw in the world wars was that a whole generation with pluto in cancer were activated by ideasthat responded their need to develop that area.
and now with the war on terror, no other country actually wants to join.
maybe it's the sun in cancer in the sibley usa charts that is acting out.
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IP LoggedBlue Hills

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #19 - on: 18.04.2007 at 17:44 [UT+1] »Thanks Mercury and Joke n for your posts. We seem to have gotten off the subject of the WW2 Holocaust alittle but maybe we've said enough on that for now. The subject of applying transits to national charts seems to
be an emotional topic on this forum and it also comes up on the U.S.A. chart and Great Britain threads. As
mentioned in this thread, and those other two, I have the opinion that since there is so much disagreement as
to which chart to use, we just stick to the planets and signs, and not worry about the ascendant or houses. I
know that this approach might seem like cheap or simple astrology, but at least we do get to discuss what
planets and signs mean, rather than wasting so much time arguing over times in history and house systems or
Zodiacs.
To illustrate my point, there is discussion right now in this forum about the tragic shootings at Virginia Tech in
the U.S. (two or three threads plus the U.S.A. one). To some people, accurate charts and analysis of theshooter's psychology seem to give answeres to some people, while to others a synastry of the event and one of
the U.S. charts seems a better way - if only people can come to some agreement about which chart to use. As
explained in my posts on the U.S. thread, and also by other astrologers before me, the 1776 chart has become
part of the U.S. psyche because we have "imprinted" it in our consciousness (whether it is correct or not) but
the annual ritual of July 4th. We have also imprinted a Scorpio ascendant (whether it is correct or not) by thesymolism on the money, government buildings and stationery, the military and the flag (13 stripes, pentagramsetc). Anyway, perhaps we should continue this discussion if neccessary in one of those threads.
Cheers,Blue
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Soturna
Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #20 - on: 18.04.2007 at 18:45 [UT+1] »This subject also fascinates me or, should i say, mr. Adolf (from a psychiatric point of view). Since i'm not anastrology student, i'll say my opinion in a different way: People like Hitler symbolize the inner urge of a nation
wich, somehow, «allows» these characters to come to surface, because they have the charisma/insanity/drive;that nation wanted (unconsciously) so badly.

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IP LoggedBlue Hills

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #21 - on: 18.04.2007 at 19:04 [UT+1] »Quote from Medievil on 18.04.2007 at 18:45 [UT+1]:
People like Hitler symbolize the inner urge of a nation wich, somehow, «allows» these characters to come to surface, because they havethe charisma/insanity/drive; that nation wanted (unconsciously) so badly.

Yes - this is what Liz Greene discusses in her book The Outer Planets and Their Cycles. I think it's agreed byhistorians that the German people were suffering badly after WW1 and the depression, and that that they
thought Hitler would solve their problems. So his Neptune-Pluto charisma was channeled through them (manyof whom also had this aspect).
Last weekend I watched the move "The Prestige" (with Michael Cane, Scarlet Johansen and David Bowie). For
those who haven't seen it, it is about magic - the old fashioned stage/performance kind with tricks like people
disappearing and escaping from water- tanks. I found it interesting because it played in the 1890s. Neptune is
all about illusion and Pluto is about power and secrecy, and these magicians certainly used both in combination
to produce their tricks. I suppose we could say the same of Hitler and the 3rd Reich as they secretly used gas(Neptune?) and deception ("you're going to be taking a shower") on a mass scale and in secret (Pluto) in theextermination camps.
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Geoffrey Hillend
Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #22 - on: 18.04.2007 at 21:13 [UT+1] »There is a Saturn square Pluto aspect there in that 1940 chart. Saturn Pluto could represent that type ofsymbolism.

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Ariel1

Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #23 - on: 19.04.2007 at 05:24 [UT+1] »Also, what about when Neptune started transiting through Libra in 1942, which is the sign of peace, love, andharmony. How come the war still went for another 3 years?

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cynthpoet
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #24 - on: 19.04.2007 at 06:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Sharon on 19.04.2007 at 05:24 [UT+1]:
Also, what about when Neptune started transiting through Libra in 1942, which is the sign of peace, love, and harmony. How come the war
still went for another 3 years?

Good question. Best to look at an historical timeline of WWII to see just how long it takes for certain
events to become completed. I'm sure that anything happening on a cusp also includes the energy of thepreceding sign as well. And Neptune travels so slowly. Also, consider how recent Neptune has been used in thehistory of Astrology. Though I could find nothing on the Internet in a short time that tells me when Neptune
was first used by astrologers as a serious influence, I'm sure it took a bit longer than a decade for it to happen.
Without looking at an ephemeris, I can't say if it took three years for Libra's influence to be felt. Also, I don't
know if it went retrograde that early into the sign.
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Mercury

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Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #25 - on: 19.04.2007 at 06:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Sharon on 19.04.2007 at 05:24 [UT+1]:
Also, what about when Neptune started transiting through Libra in 1942, which is the sign of peace, love, and harmony. How come the war
still went for another 3 years?

Maybe it was during those times that people started to dream for peace,love and harmony. After all Neptune
expresses dreams and visions in our lives.
20 years later the children born during those times tried to make their parents' dream of peace reality...
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cynthpoet
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #26 - on: 19.04.2007 at 06:40 [UT+1] »Answering my own question about Neptune Retrograde, I can see from the Astrodienst downloadable pdf
ephemeris files, Neptune went Retro several times over the years between 1942-1945, only reaching past six
degrees into Libra during September 1945. I don't know when exactly into the next sign that the influence ofthe previous sign dissappears, but I would say by my guess that it would be somewhere around five or six
degrees...but I could be wrong either way.
Any experts want to answer this?
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rhetorikeEx Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #27 - on: 19.04.2007 at 17:57 [UT+1] »Hi there, all!
I read quite a long time ago now that the shift from Pluto in Gemini to Pluto in Cancer was a factor in the ways
in which society in general started to think about the role of the individual in relationship to the nation-state,
which has applicability to the theme of how the world "becomes" oppressive and creates tragedies on such amonumental scale. The dark side of Cancer would become evident, with a desire to separate "us" from "them,"to group people into known and identified ideological segments of the population... if this was a dominant, yet
unacknowledged, emotional response to the ravages of the prior Pluto transit, which left so many millions
dispossesed and homeless after WW I, the Depression, and the devastation of the years of influenza, which also
killed millions world-wide, Cancer's affect would be to have an obsessive desire to contain all that chaos, control
it, and segregate it according to deeply held, unacknowledged, and prejudiced belief-systems.
just a thought to add to the conversation...
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cynthpoet
Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #28 - on: 19.04.2007 at 18:23 [UT+1] »Quote from rhetorike on 19.04.2007 at 17:57 [UT+1]:
Hi there, all!
I read quite a long time ago now that the shift from Pluto in Gemini to Pluto in Cancer was a factor in the ways in which society in generalstarted to think about the role of the individual in relationship to the nation-state, which has applicability to the theme of how the world"becomes" oppressive and creates tragedies on such a monumental scale. The dark side of Cancer would become evident, with a desire to
separate "us" from "them," to group people into known and identified ideological segments of the population... if this was a dominant, yet
unacknowledged, emotional response to the ravages of the prior Pluto transit, which left so many millions dispossesed and homeless after
WW I, the Depression, and the devastation of the years of influenza, which also killed millions world-wide, Cancer's affect would be tohave an obsessive desire to contain all that chaos, control it, and segregate it according to deeply held, unacknowledged, and prejudiced
belief-systems.
just a thought to add to the conversation...
alisonThat would certainly explain the Cold War, the rise of fascism as a political reality and red baiting in the US
during the Cold War.
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IP LoggedBlue Hills

Ex Member

Re: The WW2 Holocaust« Reply #29 - on: 20.04.2007 at 18:37 [UT+1] »Thanks for your input everyone.
I recently got a PM from someone who in interested in the revisionist ideas of the holocaust. This will probably
be upsetting to some people, especially those who had relatives die at one of the camps, but I hope people will
look at it anyway, if only to see how absurd it is.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/
The idea that the Nazis did not exterminate millions, but only left them to starve to death or die of disease, iscompletely negated by the physical evidence of extermination ovens at camps like Auschwitz, the remains ofwhich you can see if you go there. There is also a huge body of evidence in photos, letters and newsreels, plus
verbal accounts from survivors still alive today. I suggest that anyone who is unsure of the reality of the WW2
holocaust goes to visit their local Museum of Tolerance. There are museums in many cities in Europe and somein the U.S.
It was also suggested in the PM that since the astrology is not overwhelming, maybe the death camps did notexist. I now regret ever suggesting that the astrology didn't point to extermination camps, as the Saturn-Plutosquare of the 1940s certainly does correlate with death on a large scale.
Some people might be wondering why I ever brought up the subject of the holocaust in the first place. Well
maybe it has something to do with my personal transit of Pluto over my Chiron, which would correlate with
digging up old wounds. I was born in the 1950s so wasn't there physically, but it certainly affected my family
and how I therefore shaped my ideas about religion and spiritualiy. I do not identify with any race or religion
and who knows, I could have been either a victim or a Nazi in my previous incarnation, (with a quick
turnaround) but the truth is that I'm not so much interested in this for personal reasons, but because I see
similar movements, perhaps not so exteme, in today's world, and want to understand the past so it doesn't
happen again.
I worry at today's world of religious intolerance and even at the polarization over the U.S. 2nd Amendment! In
the past few days, after the Virginia Tech tragedy, there seems to have been a polarization of people into two
camps - those who were born in the U.S. and thoroughly support the right to bear arms, and those who wereborn in other countries and have always thought that the 2nd amendment was misguided.
We are all one world, and Americans being so entrenched in their constitution is affecting people from all over
the world. How is this related to the holocaust? Well, that's what I was tryng to show with astrology. If we canlook at say Pluto aspects or Chiron aspects in one time of history, we might be able to apply them to ourpresent time and take steps to avoid similar separatist, racist or nationalist movements in the future.
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