 EN

 Shopping Cart

Astrodienst Forum Archive
Astrodienst Forum › English Language Area › Discussion: Psychological and General My Astro

24.01.2023 at 18:10 [UT]« Previous topic | Next topic

Astrology»

Pages: 1
How can Astrology support intuition... (Read 995 times)

butterflye
Ex Member

How can Astrology support intuition...
« on: 13.06.2010 at 04:11 [UT+1] »without hindering it?
This is a big focus of inquiry for me right now, as I'm seriously contemplating Astrology as a vocation, to one
degree or another.
How can this tool be used to support the process of going within to seek one's answers, without thwarting thatprocess? I know that for some people this isn't an issue, or even relevant according to their personalphilosophies, and that's fine. But for me it's essential to discover how to use Astrology as a helpful tool, thatwill be in harmony with my spiritual philosophies.
Sometimes I ask myself why use Astrology at all? How is it helpful, really?

I don't mean this to be acontroversial thread, although I recognize it might go this route. But I'm genuinely looking at this whole thing
anew and asking myself these tough questions because I want to be very clear that this is where I want to focus
my time and energies going forward.
I would really appreciate everyone's input, especially to point out the practical benefits.
Thank you sincerely!
Back to top
IP Logged
NewMonkie

Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #1 - on: 13.06.2010 at 04:26 [UT+1] »I'm a novice but I've been getting the feeling that Mercury might have something to do with psychics since it
can relate to the nature of our attention and is associated with the third eye. I'll have to watch transits.

Back to top

IP Logged

WatchingWaiting
Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #2 - on: 13.06.2010 at 05:04 [UT+1] »Look to the B. Read up on it.
http://www.lunarliving.org/moon/index.shtml
Back to top
IP Logged
Waybread

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #3 - on: 13.06.2010 at 05:52 [UT+1] »Butterflye, can you be more specific?
What sorts of answers are you seeking?
What are your current spiritual philosophies?
If you can answer these questions, I think we can be more helpful to you.
But I will give you some examples of how astrology has helped in my life.
Posts: 14740
Gender:1. The principle of service is a "6th chord" energy. If you want to be an astrologer, you can recognize the "poor"
as well as the "poor in spirit" and interpret their horoscopes to assist them on their life-path.
2. If your personal goal is to become more serene and spiritual, you can look at days with especially vexatioustransits and prepare for them. What would be an empowering and constructive use of each day's ephemeris?
Each planet, sign, and house has multiple meanings, and a "choice-centred astrology" suggests deliberately
choosing empowering meanings of one's astrological daily diet.
3. Each sign, planet, house, and aspect has esoteric meanings.
4. Beyond the whole horoscope, the NN, solar and lunar eclipses, and your 9H and 7H charts (noviles andseptiles) say something about the more specific direction of your pathway.

Back to top

IP LoggedArcher7

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #4 - on: 13.06.2010 at 05:57 [UT+1] »Dear Butterflye,
My astrology teacher said to me: 'You are learning and applying astrology because you are intuitive'. He told
me intuition, or my intuitive nature is the reason I have gone to astrology. I often find myself meditating on
the meaning of this.
I find from experience that Astrology actually can increase, enhance your intuition. It can give those details toyour inner knowing like nothing else can.
We need to consider two things: the nature of intuition, what it is, how it works.
The nature of astrology, what it is, how it works.
Firstly, what is intuition? Words like 'gut feeling' and 'inner knowing' are often used. But I think regardless,intuition is the ability to work problems out via the unconscious. It is not the antithesis of reasoning somethingout. Rather, reason and intuition have the same target, but intuition reasons indirectly, underneath the surfaceof what we think and speculate. To give a classic and what I think is the best example here: I once was trying tocompute a very difficult mathematical problem. I worked on it for up to twelve hours and went to bed indespair and exhaustion, because try as I did, nothing I attempted worked. That morning, just before waking, I
dreamt of the solution. Someone appeared in my dream and showed me exactly what I needed to do. I
thought I was merely hoping, but I tried it and the answer was correct! Our unconscious, subconscious, thelatent in us in general comes from the universe itself. It knows what we do not on a conscious level. But here is
the most vital point: it doesn't work that well and borders on delusion unless we make some conscious effort tounderstand or reason out a problem. In fact the two always, always, always in my view work together.
So let's know ask what astrology is. Regardless of whether we are trying to understand ourselves via natal,
predict the future via various charts, or tackle a situation we just can't get to by observing it alone.....astrology
is always a guaranteed symbolic language that bridges, unites, holistically merges two main things: the innerlife with events seen and experienced in the world. Intuition will actually become stronger, more direct inshowing you via dreams, sudden fantasies, or anything 'suddenly felt, thought, said, sensed, etc.' connections
that your conscious intellect alone could not make. Let me give an example here to show you what I mean.
I barely knew astrology back in 2003. I had read all the Arroyo books, some other introductions and just knew
about what the houses and signs meant, very vaguely. Well I was at a job interview a friend of mine referred me
to, and the lady interviewing me had heard that I was into astrology. I joked that I'd let her know about her
chart if she hired me. She looked me straight in the eye and said that I had better start telling her. (she had a
Scorpio stellium and you know these people just don't mess around lol). So I thought, ok, I'll get her birthdetails and go to my astrologer and let him tell me about her chart, then I'll tell her. On my way to his house,
as I was driving, I suddenly saw her chart in my mind and was telling her, 'hey you have a ninth houseconcentration!' Now there was no way I could have possibly known that she had a Scorpio stellium in the ninth
house, and we're talking five planets!!!! My astrologer reasoned my intuition out like this: ok, I knew she wasborn in the afternoon so my subconscious would have picked up that her planets would have been on theWestern side. But I saw she had a ninth house stellium, how could I have consciously known that? I still can't
see how. Then it gets more complex. I had not seen her for a year, and didn't even want to see her because thetwirp sacked me (I mean so what if I was on the switch board and still didn't have a clue who was who, eh? lol).
But you know, in came a dream:
I dreamt of her where I went in to see her, hugged her with a lot of affection and promised I'd check on her
from time to time. When I woke up I called her. She told me she had just found out that she had diabetes andhigh blood pressure. So I looked at her chart, and though I still knew very little of astrology, I reasoned with
her ninth stellium and Sag MC, and natal Pluto in the sixth that her job was the culprit. She deeply valued
education but was too afraid to study what she was passionate about. I urged her to consider doing so now, as
her frustration was causing her obesity, poor health and adding to the problems of boredom and resentmentthat she was feeling in her current job. Her job involved administrating to post graduate students, but she had
never given herself the chance to be one herself. She had the money, resources and time to study what she waspassionate about. She began to tell me what she was really interested in, and I could see she had interests thatwent beyond the interests of her work colleagues and reputation. She was afraid other people would know her
real passions....I promised to keep them a secret. I hope this example showed how intuition and astrology canwork together.

Back to top
IP Logged

EyesisEx Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #5 - on: 13.06.2010 at 10:54 [UT+1] »Waybread and Archer7, great responses.
Yes intuition is very much lunar, and Butterflye your lunar combination would be a perfect fit.
Waybread, your take on the poor and the poor in spirit is en pointe. Astrology must have an inclusiveness to it
in order to be truly effective.
It can't be just for the people who can afford to spend a lot of money for a reading. I would love to see theelitism taken out of Astrology.
I know when you read my chart in the fourth house thread months ago, your warmth and intuition were such a
comfort to me.
And Butterflye, you have such a natural compassion for this. For me I have always appreciated your kindness
and humor.
Astrology without intuition is like trying to paint a beautiful picture with only one color.
Back to top

IP Logged

Lee Rutland
Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #6 - on: 13.06.2010 at 11:02 [UT+1] »Forget all that.
Just relax and let it come.
It will. I am all Air, but, somewhere along the way, I just began to"see" things: patterns, stories, histories. I'msure astrologers with any Water are much better than I am.
Treat it like a sacred thing, a gift from the gods, trust your instincts, and you'll do well.

Posts: 3301

Back to top
IP Logged
TorgnyEx Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #7 - on: 13.06.2010 at 13:58 [UT+1] »We first have to learn the basic techniques of astrology, the meaning of signs, planets, houses and so on. And
after having done this, listen to your intuition and let it guide you. Look at the various parts of the chart andallow the intuition to come through.
Back to top

IP Logged

danielMember

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #8 - on: 13.06.2010 at 15:28 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 13.06.2010 at 04:11 [UT+1]:
without hindering it?
This is a big focus of inquiry for me right now, as I'm seriously contemplating Astrology as a vocation, to one degree or another.
How can this tool be used to support the process of going within to seek one's answers, without thwarting that process? I know that forsome people this isn't an issue, or even relevant according to their personal philosophies, and that's fine. But for me it's essential to
discover how to use Astrology as a helpful tool, that will be in harmony with my spiritual philosophies.
Sometimes I ask myself why use Astrology at all? How is it helpful, really? I don't mean this to be a controversial thread, although I
recognize it might go this route. But I'm genuinely looking at this whole thing anew and asking myself these tough questions because I
want to be very clear that this is where I want to focus my time and energies going forward.

Posts: 1952
Gender:I would really appreciate everyone's input, especially to point out the practical benefits.
Thank you sincerely!

you do not specify what those spiritual beliefs are, and that is not important.
my past use of astrology was of a tool of self discovery, along with a twice a day
meditative practice, so i developed both concurrently.
you have a lot of fire in your natal, fire is by nature very actively connected withyour physical manifestation, in a spiritual way. learn the symbols of astrology andthen learn to listen to that part of you that is connected to the cosmic intelligenceand you will begin to have aha moments.
it is not a deficit of your personal understanding of astrology, or of your spiritualnature that causes you to have this question, it is a hole, or a misunderstandingin your application of it.
astrology seems deterministic, but once you realize that the type and levelof each energy is up to the individual soul/person, them it becomes obviousthat the good astrologer intuits the personal soul and his level of the manifestationof that devinely supported energy.
in asking this question, you show your wisdom.
with love, daniel
Back to top
IP Logged

Lee Rutland

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #9 - on: 13.06.2010 at 15:58 [UT+1] »Quote from Torgny on 13.06.2010 at 13:58 [UT+1]:
We first have to learn the basic techniques of astrology, the meaning of signs, planets, houses and so on. And after having done this,listen to your intuition and let it guide you. Look at the various parts of the chart and allow the intuition to come through.

-----smacks Torgny back of the head------State the obvious one time, will ya.........

Posts: 3301
Back to top

IP Logged

Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #10 - on: 13.06.2010 at 16:19 [UT+1] »The way I think of it is like so:
We're constantly picking up data through our senses, and our brains and other apparatus filter it give it form tomatch our expectations and so on. Much of this data is unconscious, and is often enough picked up by what wecall intuition - a kind of directed attention, sort of like a fishing net.
The symbol system of astrology (and the same can be said for many other symbol systems) adds some tools
for structuring the activity of the intuition and for better integrating it with other parts of our mentation sothat we can articulate (and then apply) what we're picking up. With enough practice, we can cast our nets a bit
more precisely as well. And a disciplined intuition is more effective at turning data into information, which iswhat we're really after.
- Ed
ps I didn't read the other replies before writing this, because it's a subject that has fascinated me since I took
up astrology. Some nice replies up there.
Back to top
IP Logged
Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #11 - on: 13.06.2010 at 17:00 [UT+1] »An interesting discussion of the subject at http://dearbrutus.com/ . Go to Astrology Articles, Intuition in
Astrology. All of the articles there are worth a read.

Back to top

IP Logged

Linda Harris
Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #12 - on: 13.06.2010 at 21:30 [UT+1] »A question for all would-be astrologers is,"Who are you doing this for??" If it's just for YOU, and you have great intuition, and astrology is redundant,
then you don't need it.

Posts: 17033

However, if it's for OTHER people, if you want to help OTHERS, well, then you must recognize that other people
may have little or NO intuition, and also may have some heavy Neptunian issues which render them blind or
confused by many issues which to YOU may be obvious and not a problem at all.
So.....figure it out: is it for YOU or for others? It can be just for others, if you have confidence in yourthoroughness and accuracy. And for that, you need to study...for a long time.
LainieBack to top
IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #13 - on: 13.06.2010 at 22:44 [UT+1] »My spiritual philosophy... suffice it to say that the only thing about it worth mentioning is the fact that I havecome to the awareness that my answers, guidance, and direction is found within. I call this "intuition"
but in a way it's much more than that.
Lainie, you hit the nail on the head for me and correctly identified the core of my question. Thank you.
I love Astrology, I really do. I find it beautiful, fascinating, intriguing, entertaining, and enjoyable. Yet more
and more I see that I don't really need it as a tool for guidance, at least not FOR ME. Why use a symbolic tool
when I can just cut right through to the heart of the matter via direct inner knowing?
It's a difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. Astrology is very deductive, in my opinion,
involving symbols which represent various meanings and conceptual understandings. Astrology engages themind and thought process, using symbology as a medium, a sort of middle-man to bridge the gap between
Spirit and mind. But if I can access Spirit directly, through a clear channel, then it seems to me that thelanguage of symbolism becomes redundant, unnecessary, and an inefficient use of time.
Now, regarding its helpfulness FOR OTHERS, I seem to come back to the same question. Why do I needsymbols to guide me in counseling someone? Why not let "guidance" emerge from my own intuition? How can
the study of symbols help me be a better counselor? And could such a study actually hinder the most helpful
response I can give, by engaging my mind in a deductive analysis and conceptual reasoning mode, rather thanstilling the mind to allow inspired guidance to flow through?
Archer, in your example about your boss, the question that came to mind for me is "Would I need to look at
someone's chart in order to know what's going on with them?" Now, I may not always be able to intuit
something instantly without talking with that person. But usually what happens with me is that after talking tosomeone I get a sense of what's going on with them, where they're coming from, what their issues andhangups are, and the concepts and assumptions that they hold which prevent a more liberating experience.
So, again, I'm left with "how would Astrology help me help someone else?" And would it serve to help rather
than hinder my intuition?
Also, the role of counselor is something I'm examining as well. Because that's what Astrologers really are,using symbolic language much like conventional psychologists use various theoretical models such as behavioral
and cognitive, to aid them in their counseling roles. And this is something that I take very seriously, the role ofcounselor.
You know, once upon a time, I started a graduate program for counseling. I even considered going further andgetting my doctorate degree in Psychology. I was quite passionate about it too, thought I found my life's
calling. Until I hit a wall. I came to see early on that I was not equipped to do anyone justice, because I was
too messed up myself. Like the blind leading the blind, I felt it was out of integrity for me to play that role forsomeone at that time. Plus I saw so many counselors in the field, who behaved as if they needed it as much or
more than their clients. I felt very disillusioned from what I saw of practicing counselors and psychologists, andI swore I wouldn't join their ranks.
So instead I went the path of business, which I found to be much more honest. lol! And in the meantime I
worked on myself.
And what I see now, now that I have attained a relative peace and sense of balance in my life, is that the mosthelpful thing I can do for another is to assist them in turning their attention within for answers, in the same
way that I have. Perhaps I could help to poke holes in their assumptions or possibly make suggestions thatwould serve to open their mind and get out of a mental rut, but do I really need Astrology for that? How
would it help me to help them look within?
I don't want to tell someone else what to do. I don't want to impose my beliefs and philosophies on another. I
have no interest in judging someone or presume to know what's best for them. Instead of answers, I just havemore questions.
I love the truth, more than anything. And what I see when I look around me is that many people don't lovethe truth, they don't want to know the truth, they are more interested in being comfortable and feeling good.
But the truth isn't comfortable and it often doesn't feel good. Many people want to know "when will thistransit pass so that I can feel better", and what I see is that "if you resist fully being present in the face of thistransit, then you'll just prolong the pain/pleasure cycle indefinitely". What we resist persists.
(continued)...
Back to top

IP LoggedArcher7

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #14 - on: 13.06.2010 at 23:38 [UT+1] »Dear Butterflye,Archer, in your example about your boss, the question that came to mind for me is "Would I need to look at
someone's chart in order to know what's going on with them?" Now, I may not always be able to intuit
something instantly without talking with that person. But usually what happens with me is that after talking
to someone I get a sense of what's going on with them, where they're coming from, what their issues andhangups are, and the concepts and assumptions that they hold which prevent a more liberating experience.
So, again, I'm left with "how would Astrology help me help someone else?" And would it serve to help rather
than hinder my intuition?

My honest opinion? No, you don't need astrology and you don't need to look at a person's chart to know what
is going on with them. Nothing in the world replaces awareness, and asking the person questions and hearing
both from them and your own ability to listen and understand what is happening in their lives, etc. To counsel
someone, you don't need astrology at all. The chart does not define the person, and I am always told by myastrologer, 'ask questions', etc. My example was not in order to illustrate the ideal case of seeing someone via
astrology. This happened to me when I knew very little of the subject and of other people. But it did happen,
and it means if anything that to me, the symbolic language of astrology is my way of connecting with myself
and another person.
But I don't even think we need astrology to understand ourselves. My level of self awareness does not start andstop with astrology. Its still a work in progress, but I was researching (for self knowledge alone) psychology andother esoteric ideas since my late teenage years. But.....for some reason astrology really resonates with me,
and I'm sure for others. Even when you consider that some people are inspired to see an astrologer and someare not, this does not mean that those not interested in astrology lack self awareness or love for truth.
Also I don't think we can ever separate astrology from the astrologer. Astrology is not simply a formula welearn that gives us causal connections. I know some people think it is, but I strongly disagree with them. It's
just a symbolic language that to me mediates between the unconscious and conscious. Jung's drawings ofmandalas, tarot, meditating long enough on a rock could achieve the same thing, though in a different way.
Many people told me they did not like seeing astrologers because the astrologers sat there and told them who
and what they were without really caring about their questions, their identity etc. But astrology can't makeanyone more or less humane. This all relates back to the person.
My question to you is, does astrology inspire you or doesn't it? Do you feel you love it or don't you? For me I
can't sleep or drink or breath without it working always in my mind and heart, just as physics may have done
so for Einstein.
I think you alone can know if astrology helps you tap into your inner self or if it does not.
Back to top
IP Logged
butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #15 - on: 13.06.2010 at 23:46 [UT+1] »What I see is that most people spend their lives running from pain, confusion, ambiguity, and all those otherqualities which society calls "bad" and "undesirable". And then Astrology is often turned to as a tool for getting
the ego what it wants, which is to feel good, be in control, and fit in and be socially accepted.
But I know that for me it would be out of integrity to support that motive, no matter how unconscious it maybe.
How many people, when feeling confused, would want to be told "well what's wrong with feeling confused?"
How many people would welcome the message to fully face and feel their pain rather than run away from it?
Who would be willing to follow their integrity and inner knowing, if it meant that they would be ostrasized?
And frankly, who am I to tell anyone anything? Is the "counselor" role even necessary? Or would my time bebetter served in, say, social services, or working with the homeless or battered women or something like that...
where my work is geared to meeting basic physical needs? I'm exploring these things right now, because I findmyself at a crossroad of sorts. I don't need to figure it out, but I am opening myself up to different points ofview, to see if anything triggers something within me, or resonates in some way, in case there's a blindspot.
I hope this response cleared up where I was coming from. I appreciate everyone's input very much, because
ultimately I do see everyone as potential voices of Spirit. But there's a clear and beautiful tone that I'm
attuned to, much like the musicians in an orchestra tune their instruments at the beginning of a performance.
And I listen for that which resonates and harmonizes with that clear tone. Sometimes Spirit whispers to me,
through a person....
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #16 - on: 13.06.2010 at 23:54 [UT+1] »Quote from Archer7 on 13.06.2010 at 23:38 [UT+1]:
My question to you is, does astrology inspire you or doesn't it? Do you feel you love it or don't you? For me I can't sleep or drink or breath
without it working always in my mind and heart, just as physics may have done so for Einstein.
I think you alone can know if astrology helps you tap into your inner self or if it does not.

And to this, dear Archer, I say "yes it does". I know it does. Like I said, I find astrology absolutely beautiful,like music, like art. To see, in symbolic form, how energies flow and interact. It just sings!
And I have no doubt I will continue to enjoy it, much like I enjoy reading a good book, or listening to music.
It's in the WHAT FOR and HOW of it that I'm seeking clarity right now. Will I use it as a guide for my life's
decisions? I highly doubt it. But after going through a particular experience I can look and say "oh wow, thistransit sure represented what I just went through", and marvel at the wonder that is Astrology.
Back to top
IP Logged
gcnorman22

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #17 - on: 14.06.2010 at 00:06 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 13.06.2010 at 04:11 [UT+1]:
without hindering it?
I would really appreciate everyone's input, especially to point out the practical benefits.

Posts: 438
Gender:Thank you sincerely!

Well, for me was useful, because it helped to understand a growing number of subleties of my own's pschology,
and the life dynamics over it too. And since I'm hobbist, I have yet to learn a lot of things which only would
add to the usefulness, and this is exciting. I have south node in 9th/Scorpio and some aspects to it thatprobably helped, even over the lines of the "intuition" you mention, but at the end of the day, frankly, practice
it's what it counts in my opinion.
Regarding trying to help other persons, well, this is another whole thing, it's way more delicate territory,
because a professional career (practice) and long studies are needed for that purpouse. But given one
understand the basic principles and a willingness and patience to learn, any advice you could deliver, even as ahobbyst, can be good.
Back to top

IP Logged

Archer7

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #18 - on: 14.06.2010 at 00:09 [UT+1] »I agree with you Butterflye. Astrology is not about 'controlling' our destiny to me. The word 'destiny' to Jung
was just another word for 'soul'.

Back to top
IP Logged

Linda Harris

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #19 - on: 14.06.2010 at 01:15 [UT+1] »"Why not let "guidance" emerge from my own intuition?"
Ooooh....this is really dangerous. This assumes a LOT. It assumes that your inner map of your own psyche will
be used for guiding others.
Posts: 17033

Astrology is both a language of symbols, a metaphorical language and calculated probabilities.
If you use your own experience and feelings to give advice or to raise the consciousness of another, you are
disregarding THIER own psychic map and their transitory energy patterns.
Now, you may be both astute and empathetic, but what you are really saying is that you don't need either thevalidation of a diploma or certificate, nor do you need the years of study of either psychology or astrology. You
are all-knowing right now! And you are perfectly capable to 'doing no harm' right now.
This is a very dangerous position to take. It also leaves you open to problems when you are wrong. LOL.... if I
make a suggestion or give advice AS AN ASTROLOGER, this protects me. I am using a 5,000+ year science,and if I am incorrect, the science shares my blame.
If you counsel someone without any accreditation, either formal or informal, you are out there all by yourself.
You may be OK with this, but I'm not. Often my "rational" self, my 'intellegence' or empathy has told me togive this or that advice or personality profile, but the chart and transits I am LOOKING AT tells me somethingelse is definitely going on. I have to trust the astrology more than my own feelings as it's NOT about ME........
But maybe you need to find this out for yourself.
In which case you will just follow your intuition.
Iwant to add that many people have written books and given seminars that raise one's consciousness. Some ofthese people are good and their books are excellent. Some are doctors, some are just experienced in life andare giving advice. Some of it is good for all people, and therefore generalized.
But an astrologer does so much more than this. If you study astrology longer, you will get to know what thisis.
LainieBack to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #20 - on: 14.06.2010 at 01:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 14.06.2010 at 01:15 [UT+1]:"Why not let "guidance" emerge from my own intuition?"
Ooooh....this is really dangerous. This assumes a LOT. It assumes that your inner map of your own psyche will be used for guiding others.
Astrology is both a language of symbols, a metaphorical language and calculated probabilities.
If you use your own experience and feelings to give advice or to raise the consciousness of another, you are disregarding THIER own
psychic map and their transitory energy patterns.
Now, you may be both astute and empathetic, but what you are really saying is that you don't need either the validation of a diploma or
certificate, nor do you need the years of study of either psychology or astrology. You are all-knowing right now! And you are perfectly
capable to 'doing no harm' right now.

No, Lainie, this is not what I'm saying or implying. At all. I take any and all roles of "counselor" very very
seriously, with a huge sense of responsibility. This is why I'm questioning it so thoroughly, and doubting
whether or not it's even useful.
Astrology is not a pure art. The readings are always filtered through a person's biases and interpretation of
those symbols. I don't see how counselors can avoid giving advice colored by their own experience andfeelings. The whole practice is highly subjective. There are as many interpretations of astrology as there areastrologers.
As far as the validation of a diploma or some other such certification... it may give the client a level of comfort,
but that certification means very little, in actuality. I've encountered many an idiot with an MA or PhD at theend of their name. All diplomas are given by institutions that compile teachings based on someones, orseveral someones', understanding of the subject matter, which is always filtered through their biases and limits
in awareness.
I am no different than any of these people. My understanding is not free of biases or limits. Hence mydilemma as to how to play a counselor's role without doing harm... and IF such a task is even possible at all.
The only thing I can think of (if I play this role) is to first of all say that what I'm sharing is my view point, notthe "truth", and even better... to just probe for the client to find their own truth. To point them to questions
that will assist in finding their own answers.
I take full responsibility for my participation. And I don't hold the perception that I would somehow beprotected by a 5,000 year old science, or any other discipline. Being responsible myself, I would not try to takesomeone else's power for decision-making or opportunity for self-responsibility. I understand that a reading is
not about me, and yet because I participate I can't help but add something of myself. Perhaps this isn't wrong
if it's acknowledged openly instead of being passed off in the assumed guise of "truth".
Quote:
But an astrologer does so much more than this. If you study astrology longer, you will get to know what this is.
LainieI would love to find out what that is. And maybe I will. For now I will continue to study, just because I enjoy
it. I'm holding off on the vocation aspect of it until I have clarity for how to truly use it responsibly andhelpfully, if at all. Perhaps in time I will discover a new face of astrology.
Back to top
IP Logged
SUNinLEO

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Member« Reply #21 - on: 14.06.2010 at 03:34 [UT+1] »BknCd is that logic+intuition?

Posts: 451
Gender:Back to top

IP LoggedWaybreadMember

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #22 - on: 14.06.2010 at 04:26 [UT+1] »Eyesis, thanks for your kind comments!
Lee Rutland, thanks for your dry wit. Most refreshing.
Butterflye, Saturn in Virgo here.
It sounds like you don't need astrology to have your life go in the direction you want. If you love astrology
and are passionate about it, then "enjoy!" A bit like having both chocolate and vanilla ice cream in the samedish--or sequentially. Either way.
Problem solved?
Posts: 14740
Gender:Meditation and looking for one's inner knowing are beautiful things.
What gives me the heebie jeebies about people wanting to focus so strongly on their "inner knowing" to theapparent exclusion of other sources of knowledge and information is that it is too easy to lose touch withreality. I am not saying you are like this, or that you deny other sources of wisdom, or that astrology has
wisdom; but we could all name people who earnestly believed they received The Truth through prayer or
meditation and it led them to do foolish things that dragged other people down with them. My husband and I
actually know someone who is now incarcerated: thinking he was on divine automatic pilot and could do nowrong, he sexually abused his children. Once people stop listening to external reality-checks, they can becomedelusional. Why? Heady feelings are just that: heady feelings.
If you've ever seen the Indian film "Water" (2005) you get its point that spirituality can in fact do crummy
things to people, even as the perpetrators feel they are a blessing to society.
So again, I am not saying you are like this. You seem like a beautiful, intelligent, and thoughtful person, with acritical faculty that is up to the challenge. But maybe the question to ask yourself is, as you get more deeply
into your meditative practice, how will you ground yourself? What will be your daily reality pill?
If you still work in the business world, that should be the ticket.
Another point that has come up on this thread is astrology as a helping profession. In chart readings, I thinkmost of us try to give insights and advice, not The Truth about someone. In writing really full chart readings
off of an astrology forum, I've prefaced my interpretations with a disclaimer that indicates astrology's limits.
But in a world of imperfect people, we cannot expect perfection in the helper prior to permitting her to do herwork. In fact, the Internet is full of patients' chat groups, because sick people are helpful to one another.
Doctors and nurses sometimes need surgery and medication. Many professions require periodic recertification/licensing because people forget what they should know. My friend who gives me super reiki
treatments cannot cure her own ailments. In terms of counseling, just maybe it takes a troubled person to
help another. Sort of like Chiron.
The fact that we are imperfect ought not to impede us from doing the good work that we are capable ofcontributing. Idealism can become a vice if our work is never "good enough." I question: what is the point of
someone attaining enlightenment (or advancement on that journey) if they ignore others' very real humanneeds?

Back to top
IP Logged
SeaGoat72

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #23 - on: 14.06.2010 at 05:08 [UT+1] »I am sorry Torgny was smacked, I tend to agree with his response.
Astrology, despite being subjective and interpretative, does have its set of principles, which ought to be studied
thoroughly. It is not much different from the medical profession. Actually, all professions have to be studied for,not learned intuitively. Intuition can help in that process, but cannot replace it.
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #24 - on: 14.06.2010 at 15:28 [UT+1] »Quote from SeaGoat72 on 14.06.2010 at 05:08 [UT+1]:
I am sorry Torgny was smacked, I tend to agree with his response.
Astrology, despite being subjective and interpretative, does have its set of principles, which ought to be studied thoroughly. It is not muchdifferent from the medical profession. Actually, all professions have to be studied for, not learned intuitively. Intuition can help in thatprocess, but cannot replace it.

SeaGoat, I agree with what you're saying, and IF I practice Astrology as a profession, then I will definitely
study it, and use intuition to support those studies. What I was saying before wasn't about practicing
Astrology by intuition alone. Just wanted to clear that up.
Back to top
IP Logged

Lee Rutland

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #25 - on: 14.06.2010 at 16:26 [UT+1] »Quote from SeaGoat72 on 14.06.2010 at 05:08 [UT+1]:
I am sorry Torgny was smacked, I tend to agree with his response.
Astrology, despite being subjective and interpretative, does have its set of principles, which ought to be studied thoroughly. It is not muchdifferent from the medical profession. Actually, all professions have to be studied for, not learned intuitively. Intuition can help in thatprocess, but cannot replace it.

Hey, Torgny is my bud. I can smack him if I want!!!

Posts: 3301
Back to top

IP Logged

Lee Rutland
Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #26 - on: 14.06.2010 at 16:28 [UT+1] »Quote from SUNinLEO on 14.06.2010 at 03:34 [UT+1]:

BknCd is that logic+intuition?

It's neither.
It's bouncing back and forth between needing logic to feel comfortable, and thinking with your heartsleeves.

Posts: 3301

Back to top
IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #27 - on: 14.06.2010 at 16:54 [UT+1] »Hi Waybread,
Quote from Waybread on 14.06.2010 at 04:26 [UT+1]:
It sounds like you don't need astrology to have your life go in the direction you want. If you love astrology and are passionate about it,then "enjoy!" A bit like having both chocolate and vanilla ice cream in the same dish--or sequentially. Either way.
Problem solved?

That's funny.
Well, I don't know if the "problem" is solved... I think the answer I was looking for is still
cooking and I'm not pushing to get at it. Over the years I've become much more comfortable with the state of
ambiguity and not knowing.
I do and will enjoy Astrology, just don't know how or if I'll use it professionally. Maybe one thing I'd like tohear is personal examples of how Astrological readings have benefited people, both giving and receiving thosereadings. Yes, I think I'd really love to hear such examples you guys... perhaps they will inspire me!
Quote:
What gives me the heebie jeebies about people wanting to focus so strongly on their "inner knowing" to the apparent exclusion of othersources of knowledge and information is that it is too easy to lose touch with reality. I am not saying you are like this, or that you denyother sources of wisdom, or that astrology has wisdom; but we could all name people who earnestly believed they received The Truth
through prayer or meditation and it led them to do foolish things that dragged other people down with them. My husband and I actuallyknow someone who is now incarcerated: thinking he was on divine automatic pilot and could do no wrong, he sexually abused his children.
Once people stop listening to external reality-checks, they can become delusional. Why? Heady feelings are just that: heady feelings.

I know what you're saying, Waybread. I've seen examples of this type of behavior, including one man who
was very similar to the guy you described, who also sexually abused a young girl and had to go to jail. I knew
him personally and witnessed his grand delusions first hand. Didn't know about the sexual abuse incident until
he was arrested though, but I can't say I was that surprised.
Yes, it's very easy to lose touch with reality, and frankly there's no foolproof method of avoiding it. My
perspective is that illusion is always swirling around us, ready to hook us at any minute, so it's best to assume
I'm always susceptible to it. That way I can remain vigilant at all times. I also like to remain open minded andhear what other people have to say, to truly consider their viewpoint, and to check any apparent projections on
their part against the possibility that they may be right.
Quote:
If you've ever seen the Indian film "Water" (2005) you get its point that spirituality can in fact do crummy things to people, even as theperpetrators feel they are a blessing to society.

I'll have to check that out, sounds very interesting. I have a rather sensitive bullshit detector, and I like lookbeneath the surface of things (BCJf). My approach to life can best be described by that Carl Jung quote,“Enlightenment is not imagining figures of light but making the darkness conscious.” And nothing is a sacred
cow to me, when I question things to uncover the truth. Hopefully I won't piss too many people off in theprocess. Perhaps I'm entering dangerous territory when I begin to question the efficacy of Astrology on an
Astrology board.
That might even be a sign of my stupidity!
Quote:
So again, I am not saying you are like this. You seem like a beautiful, intelligent, and thoughtful person, with a critical faculty that is up
to the challenge. But maybe the question to ask yourself is, as you get more deeply into your meditative practice, how will you groundyourself? What will be your daily reality pill?

Thank you, dear Waybread.

How will I ground myself? I don't know. Hopefully (and with all that Virgo in

my natal) I have enough self-doubt to never get too far out there. Hopefully (and with mySaturn/Mars/Neptune T-square) my natural makeup is one geared for constant reality-checks. Hopefully, withmy love and commitment for Truth, I will be humble enough in my approach to see things clearly.
I'm no longer working in business, but may be going back to work... possibly even in the near future, we'll see.
If so, I may pursue something that's a combination of business and social services... something that has
altruism as its core, which most engages my heart and passion. I think it's good to be engaged in the world,even necessary. What good is awareness that can't be expressed in a practical way, for the practical benefit ofpeople? (Says a true Virgo!)(continued)
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #28 - on: 14.06.2010 at 17:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Waybread on 14.06.2010 at 04:26 [UT+1]:
Another point that has come up on this thread is astrology as a helping profession. In chart readings, I think most of us try to give insights
and advice, not The Truth about someone. In writing really full chart readings off of an astrology forum, I've prefaced myinterpretations with a disclaimer that indicates astrology's limits.

I like that. And maybe this disclaimer can be used for anything... whether it be Astrology readings or"intuitive" readings?
Quote:
But in a world of imperfect people, we cannot expect perfection in the helper prior to permitting her to do her work. In fact, the Internet isfull of patients' chat groups, because sick people are helpful to one another. Doctors and nurses sometimes need surgery and medication.
Many professions require periodic re-certification/licensing because people forget what they should know. My friend who gives me superreiki treatments cannot cure her own ailments. In terms of counseling, just maybe it takes a troubled person to help another. Sort of like
Chiron.

That's a good point. I think where I have a problem is a troubled helper/healer who claims to be otherwise, or
somehow not equal to the person they're helping. I really dislike that hierarchy mentality I've seen in thecounseling profession, which assumes the client is "less than" because of their troubles, and the counselor"more than" because of their position. The ego can get very high on the power of authority. And many people
are all too willing to give up their own authority to another, probably because deep down they don't reallywant to be responsible for their own choices.
Quote:
The fact that we are imperfect ought not to impede us from doing the good work that we are capable of contributing. Idealism can become
a vice if our work is never "good enough." I question: what is the point of someone attaining enlightenment (or advancement on thatjourney) if they ignore others' very real human needs?

Yes, I agree. And I must say, my idealism does at times slip into the vice territory, and I also can easily slip
into the "not good enough" mindset... not pure enough, not clear enough, not error-free enough.... Virgo clap
trap.
And also I think I err on the side of taking TOO MUCH responsibility, which is a kind of arrogancereally. This subject of too much responsibility is something that's still a bit fuzzy for me, actually. It's been alife-long lesson that I'm still very much in the thick-of.
So, all these things are at play for me in considering counseling (astrological or otherwise) as a possible
vocation.
Back to top
IP Logged
butterflye

Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #29 - on: 14.06.2010 at 18:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 13.06.2010 at 10:54 [UT+1]:
Waybread and Archer7, great responses.
Yes intuition is very much lunar, and Butterflye your lunar combination would be a perfect fit.
Waybread, your take on the poor and the poor in spirit is en pointe. Astrology must have an inclusiveness to it in order to be truly
effective.
It can't be just for the people who can afford to spend a lot of money for a reading. I would love to see the elitism taken out of Astrology.
I know when you read my chart in the fourth house thread months ago, your warmth and intuition were such a comfort to me.
And Butterflye, you have such a natural compassion for this. For me I have always appreciated your kindness and humor.

Thank you, Eyesis, I'm really glad that this is what you experienced. At the end of the day, I think what reallymakes a difference is just simple human kindness. I think too, I sensed you could use some of that.
Quote:
Astrology without intuition is like trying to paint a beautiful picture with only one color.

lovely analogy.
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #30 - on: 14.06.2010 at 18:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 13.06.2010 at 17:00 [UT+1]:
An interesting discussion of the subject at http://dearbrutus.com/ . Go to Astrology Articles, Intuition in Astrology. All of the articles
there are worth a read.

Thanks, Ed, I'm checking it out!
Back to top
IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #31 - on: 14.06.2010 at 18:16 [UT+1] »Quote from daniel on 13.06.2010 at 15:28 [UT+1]:
you do not specify what those spiritual beliefs are, and that is not important.
my past use of astrology was of a tool of self discovery, along with a twice a day
meditative practice, so i developed both concurrently.
you have a lot of fire in your natal, fire is by nature very actively connected withyour physical manifestation, in a spiritual way. learn the symbols of astrology andthen learn to listen to that part of you that is connected to the cosmic intelligenceand you will begin to have aha moments.
it is not a deficit of your personal understanding of astrology, or of your spiritualnature that causes you to have this question, it is a hole, or a misunderstandingin your application of it.
astrology seems deterministic, but once you realize that the type and levelof each energy is up to the individual soul/person, them it becomes obviousthat the good astrologer intuits the personal soul and his level of the manifestationof that devinely supported energy.
in asking this question, you show your wisdom.
with love, daniel

Hi Daniel,
My chart is mostly earth, but my ascendant is fire (a) and the chart ruler E is e. I do think that there's amisunderstanding of sorts going on with me at the moment. And perhaps I sense on some level that there's a
way to honor my intuition and use Astrology in a way that supports it.
Right now transiting Neptune is opposing my natal Mars and exactly squaring my natal Neptune, and transiting
Mars just went over my natal Mars and SN. Also transiting Chiron in conjuncting my NN and opposing myMars/SN conjunction. Plus transiting Pluto has almost completed its long pass through my 9th house and isnearing my MC. I think I'm just ripe for some kind of shift careerwise so all these things are coming to a headfor me. Plus with all that Neptune, confusion and soul-searching is a big part of the equation. I must be
careful not to get caught up in my Virgo analysis paralysis mode, because then all those Neptunian issues
become very confusing indeed.
Back to top

IP Logged

danielMember

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #32 - on: 14.06.2010 at 18:32 [UT+1] »Butterflye,
your powerful fire sign ascendant was what i was referring to. and yes yourabundant virgo mentality should be applied to yourself sparingly.
that being said, i quite respect your observations. your higher self will guide
you through this seeming morass of confusion and deposit you in a place where
even more wisdom is possible, because you would be in a more stable place
Posts: 1952
Gender:and be able to support more thought to your studies and the service to others.
for what good can come of a servant who is hungry and unsure of their place?
fire and earth, a spirit based practicality.
with the love of a kindred spirit, daniel

Back to top
IP Logged
Ms. Miranda

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #33 - on: 14.06.2010 at 18:37 [UT+1] »I use astrology as a springboard to utilizing my own intuition and I have several other astrologically invested
practitioners who manage to incorporate the two sides, meaning the creative, artistic intuitive element with thelogical, scientific side. It's about understanding that it can be integrated with intention and understanding that
there is an element of intuition already available to anyone doing a reading whether they choose to call it thator not. It all depends upon how you perceive your experience of reading a chart. I don't think there is really any
right or wrong answer here.

Posts: 3684
Gender:Back to top

IP Logged

Weblog

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #34 - on: 14.06.2010 at 19:04 [UT+1] »It isn't that you need the symbols, it's that you need the language astrology provides. Without language, you
don't have a coherent method of explanation of your intuition, or much else, for that matter.

Back to top
IP LoggedMs. Miranda

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #35 - on: 14.06.2010 at 19:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Weblog on 14.06.2010 at 19:04 [UT+1]:
It isn't that you need the symbols, it's that you need the language astrology provides. Without language, you don't have a coherent
method of explanation of your intuition, or much else, for that matter.

I would submit that I disagree. Symbols are the language of the subconscious/unconscious mind, which gets tothe deeper truth of each of our natures, where the hidden agenda, intention and patterns are residing anddriving us. Most people don't know self and the more you know about your chart, the more you realize you
don't know, and that is why people get so hung up in the literal interpretations and fight over the accuracy of
those efforts. They completely gloss over or ignore the importance of symbols. Symbols are what give things
meaning, and meaning is INDIVIDUALIZED. You can read a chart left and right and never be able to teachmeaning to anyone...Because it's not possible. Only the person sitting in their chair can give what you say
Posts: 3684
Gender:meaning, and I can assure you they will never hear what you say, only what they think they heard you say,which is driven by hidden agendas. And with astrology, there is an infinite number of meanings one can derivefrom symbols. If you think you can cover all the bases, you're deluded by your ego about what you can control;
ie that you can wrap it all up in a literal interpretation.
Faith in language is inherently flawed because there is what you say, how you hear and then there is the truth
to coin the words of a few great teachers I've had in my life. Language is HIGHLY limited and it dilutes
meaning. Pure and simple. Even my feeble attempts at expressing this for myself to you will be lost, because
my intention you can never know or understand.
You first start in the literal realm and then take it into the metaphoric, which requires the understanding ofsymbols in order to give meaning to the reading. Astrology, if it is to be used to its fullest capacity needs to be
run through at least these two. If you sit in the literal realm in all of this, you'll only go in circles...literally. No
deeper understanding of self can be achieved without understanding that there is individualized meaning inevery chart and how one perceives, that is why understanding symbols is so important.

Back to top

IP Logged

Linda Harris
Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #36 - on: 14.06.2010 at 22:01 [UT+1] »Hi Butterflye,
I want to get a couple of things straight, and hope that you won't continue to pretend to misunderstand me.....

Posts: 17033

I can only speak for myself - period. I do NOT use my own feelings and experiences and anything else
"personal" when I give a reading. IF I am going to go off into 'personal recollection' or anectodal remarks, orindeed anything else coming from MY personal feelings, I LET the client KNOW. Otherwise, it just isn't part ofwhat I am doing. Now you don't have to believe this, but that's your privilege.
I also let the client know when I am giving them my own personal viewpoint or philosophy. In fact, in the
beginning of any reading I give a disclaimer, in which I let the client know that I am NOT the last word on theirlife. And I will give an impartial and objective reading, and if I feel it necessary to interject something personalat any time, I will let them know that is what it is I believe all legitimate, experienced astrologers attempt to do this same thing.
True, this did not come easily or naturally....in fact, just the opposite. Blocking my own instinctual responses
was a hard fought for skill, believe me.
And I am not hiding behind the history of the science of Astrology...I think you know that too....when someone
comes to me they are told I am a traditional astrologer and specialize in the psychological part of their makeup.
I am not a psychologist, they know this and they are willing to let the reading speak for itself.

And even though I certainly do NOT believe that all people with degrees or certificates....even doctors of all
types....are equally fit for or talented in the field of "helping others" in a mental or spiritual way......I DO believethat the years it takes to get those degrees and /or certificates allows one to have some sort of confidence thatthat particular person is not just "air" and "charm."
There are many hurdles on the way to a degree in the helping professions, and most of the time those who do
NOT have the stamina or enthusiasm or the tenaciosness just drop out at some point.
This is true with astrology too....if one is not tenacious and passionate in the learning of astrology, one will only
get part of the information. That is just the way it is.
Also, I don't believe there is anyone in the world who doesn't have their own issues and problems, traumas andtragedies.....therapists and astrolgers included. The point is, can this imperfect human being help SOMEONEELSE without infecting them with their own negativity from their own personal experiences.
I have seen both types.
So if astrology is not a 'calling' for you, a vocation - there's no reason you can't study it for the joy of it.
Maybe if the interest lasts long enough you will have that epiphany that I had when I said, "this is for life...forthe rest of my life."
I also love photography, and have been engaged in this for many years. I can't imagine my life without acamera....but I would never think of trying to make a living with it...it's just a joy. I think we are allowed tolove many things in life without having to categorize them.....we just do them and love doing them.
As a Leo I love to do the things I love to do! I don't have to define or categorize them all. And I don't have toknow where the interest in these things will lead.
But having Aquarius on my 4th house cusp, and Uranus in the 7th trine Neptune, I AM an astrologer. Even
when I wasn't an astrologer I was an astrologer. I just didn't know it yet.
Ask astrologers on this and other sites about how they knew it was meant for them to be astrologers and it
may help you figure out where you are with it. If you must know. Or just keep studying. On this site alone
there are copius amounts of astrological learning tools - articles, etc.
Lainiep.s.
By the way, someone asked a question about Aquarius and Cancer....they don't actually oppose each other,unless in an unusual out of sign aspect. Aquarius and Cancer inconjunct each other. They need other energies
to bring out the best in both of them. Look for other aspects to each.
Back to top
IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #37 - on: 15.06.2010 at 01:12 [UT+1] »Quote from daniel on 14.06.2010 at 18:32 [UT+1]:
and yes yourabundant virgo mentality should be applied to yourself sparingly.

lol! sparingly, agreed.
Quote:
that being said, i quite respect your observations. your higher self will guide
you through this seeming morass of confusion and deposit you in a place where
even more wisdom is possible, because you would be in a more stable placeand be able to support more thought to your studies and the service to others.
for what good can come of a servant who is hungry and unsure of their place?

Yes, I trust that HS will guide me. Upon reflection I realized that it's all quite simple really. If and when thetime comes for me to do counseling work it will be a no-brainer. I'll know it, just like all the other times I've
known to do something. The fact that I don't know now means it's not time now. How simple life is! Right
now what I know is that I enjoy Astrology and will continue to study it, and remain open for Life to use me as
it will.
I think life happens on a need-to-know basis. When we need to know something, we do. And when we don't
know something, we can either rest comfortably in that, or do these crazy mental acrobatics of trying to figure
it out, like a hamster in its wheel... until we tire ourselves out. I think the Universe must laugh at us alot. I
know I laugh at myself when I see myself doing this crazy dance.
Quote:
with the love of a kindred spirit, daniel

likewise, Daniel.
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #38 - on: 15.06.2010 at 01:21 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 14.06.2010 at 18:37 [UT+1]:
I use astrology as a springboard to utilizing my own intuition and I have several other astrologically invested practitioners who manage toincorporate the two sides, meaning the creative, artistic intuitive element with the logical, scientific side. It's about understanding that it
can be integrated with intention and understanding that there is an element of intuition already available to anyone doing a reading
whether they choose to call it that or not. It all depends upon how you perceive your experience of reading a chart. I don't think there isreally any right or wrong answer here.

Springboard.. I like that.
I don't remember where I read this, and I think it was here in the forum somewhere, but there was some kindof test done where many of the major astrologers were asked to do a reading on someone, and then acomparison was made as to how correct the readings were. Seems many of the well known astrologers didn't
do so well. Anybody recall this test? But then I question those outcomes too, because it reminds me of taking
a test in school... you know how doing poorly on a test doesn't necessarily indicate how well you really know
the subject matter.
Miranda, I do think that a really good reading must have a certain level of intuition that influences it. Maybesome of the best readings come out of a really good synastry between 2 people, such that the relationship itself
gives rise to a reading that is really meaningful and productive. Maybe the same astrologer won't have thesame results with everyone across the board... seems likely.
Back to top
IP Logged
butterflye

Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #39 - on: 15.06.2010 at 01:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Weblog on 14.06.2010 at 19:04 [UT+1]:
It isn't that you need the symbols, it's that you need the language astrology provides. Without language, you don't have a coherent
method of explanation of your intuition, or much else, for that matter.

Weblog, your post sparked something for me! What you said touched on my original question regarding HOW
to use astrology to support my intuition. This is quite excellent really!
It's one thing to have intuition, it's another thing to communicate it, for which we need language... in this casethe symbology of Astrology could serve that purpose. Like different musical notes, if we know the right keys tohit, in the right combination, we produce beautiful music!!
And I can see how, by being well versed in
Astrology, I could serve as a translator between matter (symbolic language) and substance (intuition). Speaks
right to my Saturn/Neptune opposition!
I sense this insight needs to deepen a bit for me. Thank you, Weblog!
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #40 - on: 15.06.2010 at 01:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 14.06.2010 at 19:26 [UT+1]:
Symbols are what give things meaning, and meaning is INDIVIDUALIZED.

I agree with this too. Hmm... it seems in a way that your and Weblog's messages are contradictory, butsomething about them seems to be concurrently true for me. Like a paradox, perhaps.
I might come back and post more on this later...
Back to top
IP Logged
butterflye

Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #41 - on: 15.06.2010 at 02:28 [UT+1] »Oh Lainie, why would I pretend to misunderstand you? Perhaps misunderstanding is running both ways thistime? I do feel like you didn't get my point, but no matter. I don't want to beat a dead horse.
Quote:I DO believe that the years it takes to get those degrees and /or certificates allows one to have some sort of confidence that thatparticular person is not just "air" and "charm."

Yes, I think for many people this does give a measure of comfort and confidence. I see degrees as relatively
helpful, a starting point. I'm not dismissing them as useless and irrelevant, but merely suggest that we not toarrest our critical thinking and intuitive faculties when confronted by a fancy piece of paper.
Quote:The point is, can this imperfect human being help SOMEONE ELSE without infecting them with
their own negativity from their own personal experiences.

That's the million dollar question! MY million dollar question, to be sure. Reminds me of contemplating
having a child... can this imperfect human being take on the role of parent without infecting the child with her
own negativity?
Can't be done, I'm afraid. It always bleeds through..
I recall one of my professors
confessing that he learned on the backs of his clients. *shudders*
Quote:
So if astrology is not a 'calling' for you, a vocation - there's no reason you can't study it for the joy of it. Maybe if the interest lasts longenough you will have that epiphany that I had when I said, "this is for life...for the rest of my life."

I loved that. Yes, for some people it's really a no brainer. And I can appreciate the fact that it may not be acalling for me (as yet I don't know), in which case I respect myself, others, and the practice itself, enough to
not to interject myself into something that's not meant for me, at least not on a professional level. How I
marvel at people who get this kind of certainty about a vocation! My father knew at the age of 9 that hewanted to be a mathematician.
Yes, at the very least Astrology will be (is) a joy for me.
Quote:As a Leo I love to do the things I love to do! I don't have to define or categorize them all. And I don't have to know where the interest inthese things will lead.

I loved that message too! Yes, exactly... I really don't have to know where my interests will lead... just let theenjoyment unfold and see where life takes me. It makes living really fun that way, exciting, like an adventure!

Quote:
But having Aquarius on my 4th house cusp, and Uranus in the 7th trine Neptune, I AM an astrologer. Even when I wasn't an astrologer I
was an astrologer. I just didn't know it yet.

Reading that kinda puts things in perspective for me.
I always appreciate your feedback, Lainie.
Back to top

IP LoggedMs. Miranda
Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #42 - on: 15.06.2010 at 03:51 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 15.06.2010 at 01:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ms. Miranda on 14.06.2010 at 19:26 [UT+1]:
Symbols are what give things meaning, and meaning is INDIVIDUALIZED.

I agree with this too. Hmm... it seems in a way that your and Weblog's messages are contradictory, but something about them seems to
be concurrently true for me. Like a paradox, perhaps.
I might come back and post more on this later...

The greatest truths lay in paradox!
Posts: 3684
Gender:Back to top
IP Logged
SUNinLEO

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Member« Reply #43 - on: 15.06.2010 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 14.06.2010 at 16:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from SUNinLEO on 14.06.2010 at 03:34 [UT+1]:

BknCd is that logic+intuition?
Posts: 451
Gender:It's neither.
It's bouncing back and forth between needing logic to feel comfortable, and thinking with your heartsleeves.

i have this aspect and can say without modesty that i have fantastic logic and intuition. i thought that aspect
gave me them.
Back to top

IP Logged

EyesisEx Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #44 - on: 15.06.2010 at 13:46 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 14.06.2010 at 18:01 [UT+1]:
Quote from Eyesis on 13.06.2010 at 10:54 [UT+1]:
Waybread and Archer7, great responses.
Yes intuition is very much lunar, and Butterflye your lunar combination would be a perfect fit.
Waybread, your take on the poor and the poor in spirit is en pointe. Astrology must have an inclusiveness to it in order tobe truly effective.
It can't be just for the people who can afford to spend a lot of money for a reading. I would love to see the elitism takenout of Astrology.
I know when you read my chart in the fourth house thread months ago, your warmth and intuition were such a comfort tome.
And Butterflye, you have such a natural compassion for this. For me I have always appreciated your kindness and humor.

Thank you, Eyesis, I'm really glad that this is what you experienced. At the end of the day, I think what really makes a difference is justsimple human kindness. I think too, I sensed you could use some of that.
Quote:
Astrology without intuition is like trying to paint a beautiful picture with only one color.

lovely analogy.

It is something I get very little of except for the random kindness that floats my way every once in a while.
Have had to learn how to be kind to myself.
Astrologers who receive clients and give advice become counselors the minute they do this. Most people cometo Astrologer when they are troubled or need a horary/relocation.
We as humans need meaning and I agree with Ms Miranda wholeheartedly. We do need to feel special ~Leo Rising Aquarius setting.
You should read your past posts BF your answer lies all through them.
I can generally sense the ones who are simply in it for the money, and have little intuition.
Their material is always flat and unfeeling and generally damages people financially and emotionally. Like adrug addict that gets a drug that does nothing he will rob to get a Good Fix and that is what Astrology money
mongers feed on.
Certainly that does not describe you.

Foresight is the "Reason" aspect of Intuition.
The Art of Science and the Science of Art.

Back to top
IP Logged
Carol9thhouse

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #45 - on: 15.06.2010 at 14:39 [UT+1] »Hi Butterflye, I went through a similar path about ten years ago. I was looking for what I wanted to do andconsidered Astrology. For me its a little too flaky, all the hippy connotations etc, etc - I need to do work where I
would be taken seriously. ( 3rd bG rx and l Asc/ I)
I do love it though and it's a hobby. I also did training in counselling, which the Federation of Australian
Posts: 1344

Astrologers encourages all its Astrologers to do. Much more study to be done if I where to set up as
counsellor....I really identify with Archer's example of the Scorpio 9th houser and her passion but not going forwhat she wanted.
We are all 'marked' with our own hurts and it is from this point that we can go with another into exploring theirhurts. Identifying that many healers haven't healed themselves seems to be an excuse for you to not go any
further with your studies. Have a closer look at your fears around all of this.
I think you would make a really good Astrologer/Counsellor and your intuitive insights would add to yourreadings/sessions.
Regards, Carol

Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye
Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #46 - on: 15.06.2010 at 19:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Ms. Miranda on 15.06.2010 at 03:51 [UT+1]:
The greatest truths lay in paradox!

yes.

Back to top
IP Logged
butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #47 - on: 15.06.2010 at 19:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 15.06.2010 at 13:46 [UT+1]:
I can generally sense the ones who are simply in it for the money, and have little intuition.
Their material is always flat and unfeeling and generally damages people financially and emotionally. Like a drug addict that gets a drugthat does nothing he will rob to get a Good Fix and that is what Astrology money mongers feed on.
Certainly that does not describe you.

I don't think I would charge for readings. Just like I don't charge for doing Reiki healings or the little bits ofother occult-ish areas I dabble in, like past-life regressions, tarot readings, palmistry, etc. I don't necessarily
think it's wrong to charge for a reading, per se, but speaking strictly for myself I think it resonates for me totreat such things as gifts.
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye
Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #48 - on: 15.06.2010 at 19:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Carol9thhouse on 15.06.2010 at 14:39 [UT+1]:
We are all 'marked' with our own hurts and it is from this point that we can go with another into exploring their hurts. Identifying thatmany healers haven't healed themselves seems to be an excuse for you to not go any further with your studies. Have a closer look at
your fears around all of this.

You make a good point, Carol. I've addressed this issue in myself, and remain open to seeing more, if there's
more to be seen. Right now what I sense is that it's not so much a fear that's at play for me but just looking
into what I most resonate with, and how to express that.
I appreciate your encouragement.
Back to top
IP Logged
Oblique

Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #49 - on: 15.06.2010 at 19:34 [UT+1] »I suppose on the most ethereal ("ether" = numbing / "real" actuality) plane, intuition is an openness to thesixth sense we are all born with in the animal kingdom.
we all have it and act it out as our psyche permits.
business people who have an acumen to be in the right place at the right time.
counselors/therapists who know what buttons are stuck.
lovers who sense infidelity.
my thought on this is how open are we to ourselves to recognize our strengths, our truths, our lies to ourselves
and others.
i have CO n (7th to 1st) and have been able to come up with solutions without a logical process. Snodem N
in l (8th), I've seen people, situations and threats and "outs" before and am able to recognize them.
It is my choice that I seek, reject and embrace the truth of the matters at my whim (personal will overrides
astrology, history, over and over again.)
how do we choose to use intution?
do we confuse intuition with fear? (Robert Blaschke once told me the difference between intutive thought andfearful thought is the emotion we feel during it - is there a calmness (intuitive) or a panic (fear) associated withthe thought? If it is a calm, passing thought, it is intuition. if there is panic and dread, it is fear.
how many times have we thought some crazy (in our minds) notion about something, without any feeling orfear associated with it, and found it to actually manifest? on the other hand, are our own worst fears realized
when our imagination conjures up the worst?
know thyself and trust thyself - i am on a road to learning.
my "intuition" is seldom wrong when i listen to it. my choices to ignore it are the most disasterous.
my "fearful thoughts" are seldom realized unless i orchestrate the endings myself, just for "self protection"
which usually ends up being "self destruction".
the "little voice" inside us won't lead us astray. it's the honey-dipped, ear-tickling voices that we need to avoid.
Back to top

IP Logged

butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #50 - on: 15.06.2010 at 19:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Oblique on 15.06.2010 at 19:34 [UT+1]:
do we confuse intuition with fear? (Robert Blaschke once told me the difference between intutive thought and fearful thought is theemotion we feel during it - is there a calmness (intuitive) or a panic (fear) associated with the thought? If it is a calm, passing thought, it
is intuition. if there is panic and dread, it is fear.

I agree with this. It's been a work in progress for me to recognize the difference, but the more I've tuned in tolisten, the more I can distinguish one from the other. And yes, intuition does have a certain peaceful vibe that
I feel in my gut and heart center, a calm knowing. When I tune in to that energy I can even sense a joyemanating from it.
On the other hand the fear and deception energies have a nervous twinge, a rather erratic but subtle vibration.
Self-honesty is a rabbit hole that goes very very deep. At some point we're left alone to "get real" withourselves, or not. And no one may recognize those very very subtle energies of deception but us, in the end.
We can, if we want to, fool ourselves and others such that no one may be the wiser to the deception that really
lives there. And it's only our love of truth that will have us face ourselves. But that's the only path to freedom.
Back to top
IP Logged
Lee Rutland

Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #51 - on: 15.06.2010 at 20:55 [UT+1] »Quote from SUNinLEO on 15.06.2010 at 12:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lee Rutland on 14.06.2010 at 16:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from SUNinLEO on 14.06.2010 at 03:34 [UT+1]:

BknCd is that logic+intuition?
It's neither.
It's bouncing back and forth between needing logic to feel comfortable, and thinking with your heartsleeves.
i have this aspect and can say without modesty that i have fantastic logic and intuition. i thought that aspect gave me them.

Posts: 3301

Well, I can see how it could do just that. You bounce back and forth between the two, become familiar withboth, have both working on you all the time. That could be a definite advantage.
Back to top

IP Logged

HoraryMystic
Ex Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #52 - on: 22.06.2010 at 18:55 [UT+1] »Intuition is your emotional link to the universe. There is no denying it. By nature, we cannot deny this link. It
is the job of the intellect to turn emotional information into verbal, so we can then decide what action to take.
The intellect often does not do its job--the whole job--because a block exists somewhere, and it has to rely
upon established patterns and models that have been set up by tradition, folklore or conditioning. Meanwhile,the universe is still moving, the stars and planets are still doing their thing, and we are still feeling ourconnection to it, regardless of how we interpret it. We can look at a particular influence in a chart and verbally
deny its existence in our lives, but that does not mean that this influence is not there. It MUST necessarily
manifest, in SOME way. It will manifest in nature, in some way. You can read about its meaning in a book, but
in order to confidently interpret its meaning, you must somehow OWN its existence within yourself. What is
YOUR interpretation of that influence? Venus, for example, moves through the 6th house every day(as do all of
the other planets, Sun and Moon) during certain time periods. Whatever happens during those times will
manifest somehow the meaning(s) of Venus in the 6th House. Perhaps at those times you will be particularly
critical of your relationship. Or of how you look. You may feel that you have to be nice to someone that you
would not want to be around(like co-workers). You may have a hard time seeing the value of what you have,and be critical of your finances. Or it could simply mean that you are engaged in a tedious project with yourpartner. Somehow, this placement will manifest. To interpret it correctly--or rather, accurately--you must takein the whole configuration. Is Venus well-aspected, with trines and sextiles?? Are there other planets in the
6th? What sign is she in?? etc etc. Venus is generally considered to be in 'fall' in the 6th. Here, she gives atendency to look the old gift horse in the mouth--even to beat the poor horse to death(after which you ARE
beating a dead horse) trying to make him perfect. You can't. I digress. The point is, this is just a TENDENCY.
All planets in positions, by house and sign, give tendencies. You must see how the planet fits in with all theother planets, because this will determine whether the influence of that planet fits in well with the otherinfluences and the life as a whole.
As a professional, seeing clients, one of the biggest problems you encounter is when a client denies somethingthat you are saying when you interpret his/her natal chart. 'I used to be that way, but that's no longer true', or'That's not me, but my father was that way' etc. We tend to indentify with our readings, and question our own
training when this happens, or get defensive. We all feel a need to be right. Sometimes that is our motivation
for doing readings in the first place. We think that we can help change a life by giving a reading, which is true,
but we also think that this is true only if we are correct in our readings. And when we are contradicted, we
think that our reading is incorrect, go back to the drawing board, or the client is not in tune with us(which isvery often true, but not in the way that we think). The key to this whole thing is to, from the first, understandthat our job as astrologers is to interpret tendencies, and not assume certain ACTIVITIES will come to pass asa result of these tendencies(be prepared to use the word 'may' a lot). Being 'correct' is not as important as
being accurate, much less are they the same thing. A lot of new clients expect to see pyrotechnics, they arebound to be disappointed because this is not your job, and you should accept this yourself. Your job is to help
clients understand things about themselves. What you can give them is, at best, second hand. You can help
bring them TO that place, but you can't go in there with them. The best way that you can give this is to get a
lot of FIRST hand knowledge. Do a LOT of your own astrology. Your own horaries. Look into your OWN soul
to see how an influence manifests--and it WILL manifest somehow. It is a part of your soul. Venus in the 6th
can manifest as being extremely judgemental of others(while also having to be nice to them), or as just being
very frugal with your money--it takes two to tango(or tangle)--it all depends upon how Venus mixes with theother influences. A relationship can become a lot of work(Venus squared), or you can see it as a chance towork on yourself(Venus in sextile).
Look for the influences within yourself--you will find them. Whether in horary or in natal charts.
HM
Back to top
IP Logged
butterflye

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Ex Member« Reply #53 - on: 22.06.2010 at 19:45 [UT+1] »Thank you, HM! I appreciate your input.
I'm going to quote something you said in one of your readings on
the Horary board, which really resonated for me and had bearing on my original question.
Quote:To be totally honest, I did do a LOT of serious reading on astrology in the first few years of my study, but there was a point where thebooks all started to say all the same things to me, and some of them nothing at all, so I got confident enough to lay them aside and rely
on my own intuition. It's all about awareness. I also already had a good background in planetary movements(astronomy). And not that I
don't respect others' observations, there is a difference between opinion and observation, I typically question concepts that have more to
do with mathematics than with the actual movement of a planet(such as harmonics, midpoints, arabic parts, trans-uranian 'planets' andother derived points), preferring to stick with the basic 4--planets, houses, signs, and aspects. There is a lot to be seen and interpreted
from just these things, so they are quite enough for me. I 'get it right' by simply combining, in my mind, the feeling of a planet with thefeeling of a sign, and then the feeling of that planet with the feeling of the house. It's really all about self-awareness. What's important is
how this or that planet, house, etc, feels to you--you have to look through your self-talk and sort through what you have read, distinguishbetween what you feel is true and 'opinion'(particularly what looks like medievalism). 'New ideas' and what are apparently mental
constructs tend to strike me more as experimental and don't have much interpretive value to me, as astrology is complicated enoughalready, and I understand that many astrologers want to write something 'original'. If you don't see something in the chart that you think
you should see, you should look more closely at what you do see--planets in signs and houses, and in relationship to each other. Perhaps
the situation as you are experiencing it doesn't have what you think you are seeing in it(thus I would look more closely at Neptune or the
12th House). Stand apart from the situation, realizing that you and it are separate and your power doesn't depend upon its success. Thenthe situation and its chart(which, though, are also separate) become clear.

Back to top

IP Logged

Maryon

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...

Member« Reply #54 - on: 22.06.2010 at 21:56 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 22.06.2010 at 19:45 [UT+1]:
Thank you, HM! I appreciate your input.

I'm going to quote something you said in one of your readings on the Horary board, whichreally resonated for me and had bearing on my original question.
Quote:To be totally honest, I did do a LOT of serious reading on astrology in the first few years of my study, but there was apoint where the books all started to say all the same things to me, and some of them nothing at all, so I got confident
enough to lay them aside and rely on my own intuition. It's all about awareness. I also already had a good background inplanetary movements(astronomy). And not that I don't respect others' observations, there is a difference between opinion
and observation, I typically question concepts that have more to do with mathematics than with the actual movement of a

Posts: 776
Gender:planet(such as harmonics, midpoints, arabic parts, trans-uranian 'planets' and other derived points), preferring to stick withthe basic 4--planets, houses, signs, and aspects. There is a lot to be seen and interpreted from just these things, so they
are quite enough for me. I 'get it right' by simply combining, in my mind, the feeling of a planet with the feeling of asign, and then the feeling of that planet with the feeling of the house. It's really all about self-awareness. What's
important is how this or that planet, house, etc, feels to you--you have to lookthrough your self-talk and sort through what you have read, distinguish between what you feel is true and'opinion'(particularly what looks like medievalism). 'New ideas' and what are apparently mental constructs tend to strikeme more as experimental and don't have much interpretive value to me, as astrology is complicated enough already, and I
understand that many astrologers want to write something 'original'. If you don't see something in the chart that you think
you should see, you should look more closely at what you do see--planets in signs and houses, and in relationship to eachother. Perhaps the situation as you are experiencing it doesn't have what you think you are seeing in it(thus I would look
more closely at Neptune or the 12th House). Stand apart from the situation, realizing that you and it are separate andyour power doesn't depend upon its success. Then the situation and its chart(which, though, are also separate) become
clear.

I agree with you and my approuch towards astrology is intuitieve. I must draw an horoscope and than I know
very much about the whole picture. It is not because I studied the lords, the hard or soft aspect comming ore
going out (well I am shure it does help
, it is more a feeling I get. And when I have the currage to follow it,
to simply trust it : I am amazed what I can tell. But to be honest, I am very bad in explaining things based on
facts and knowhows: altough I studied over 80 astro books and did an astro studie for years( I am telling thisto be taken serrious I suppose... well that is my weak spot (N in 3 k and Cind s G and sN
Well anyhow.... astrology is to me an outlet for my intuition.

.

Back to top
IP Logged
ChironEx Member

Re: How can Astrology support intuition...
« Reply #55 - on: 28.06.2010 at 08:37 [UT+1] »Interesting questions.
At first it seems as if you put intution and some kind of spiritual voyage in focus. And that astrology is a mere
tool of symbols with no connection to reality. So my first thoughts are: Isnt't intution that we are flexible inour mind and thinking. And shouldn't astrology be in focus ? In my eyes astrology is something real.
How can astrology help us understand ourselves without ... ?
Astrology is a great map or map tool ? But it is so complex, it is so hard to grasp everything. It's easy todrown in all information. And our psyche is complex too. So astrology is good, I wonder if there is any othersystem of understanding the psychic that is as complex and exhaustive ? Is there any other system that iscomparable ?
But the complexity of astrology seems to make it harder to find ourselves, and may be seen as an obstacle. So
its rather the complexity of our minds that prevents us on our way. And if the interpretation of our chart not isgood, that blocks our understanding and life.
Sometimes we may need a break from astrology and looking into charts. Fall out into the real life without
charts and controlling of transits to find the real world in a direct way. Maybe there is some fear or addiction inastrology. A way of controlling life when looking at transits. Or a search for opportunities, when good things will
come to us. Or a search for bad times to avoid the world and reality. I guess this isn't too good for our growing
journey of life. We/I, are analyzing our charts to make us free, but instead we/I end up in a prison of searchingtransits.
It's great to understand oneself. Astrology have helped me alot in this. But sometimes I should take a breakfrom it to let it sink in, and maybe look at other ways of understanding, to get something to compare with. It's
hard to know how good astrology is if you can't compare it with something else. What self awareness do otherpeople have ?
And understanding yourself is essential to understand astrology, but then you must have a language to tellother people about their charts. I may look at a chart and understand it, but do I have the words and language
to express it ? And is it necessary for them to look inside, if I can explain to them what persons they are ?
Is astrology helpful. Yes, I think so, but it sure is something to think about. And will understanding ourselves
make us free ? Or are there other ways to become free ?
I appreciate to read some real english, Butterflye and hope you can understand some of my words.
Back to top

IP Logged
Pages: 1

Astrodienst Forum › English Language Area › Discussion: Psychological and General« Previous topic | Next topic

Astrology»=> Discussion: Psychological and General Astrology

Go