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Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th? (Read 7873 times)

StarryEyed
MemberWhich house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« on: 17.08.2011 at 21:11 [UT+1] »Hello,
I keep reading contradictory explanations as to which house rules astrology. Some say 8th, others 12th. I
would guess Neptune, ruler of the 12th, has more to do with it than Pluto lording over the 8th. Anyone know
for sure?
Thanks in advance.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #1 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:26 [UT+1] »No house rules astrology. Mercury and Saturn probably do.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #2 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:29 [UT+1] »As an interest and activity astrology is found in the 9th house along with religion, philosophy and 'higher
studies'.
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MialiseMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #3 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:33 [UT+1] »I heard from a local astrologer that Uranus and 12th house are clues for astrology

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #4 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:37 [UT+1] »There's an old saying "believe none of what you hear and half of what you see".
So we're back to the "How do you test your conclusions" thread again. How do we assess the reliability of ourknowledge of the world? That one has preoccupied many a human being throughout our existence. And ought
to preoccupy more.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #5 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:37 [UT+1] »Deborah Houlding, the house expert, lists the 9th for astrologers and astrology.
In actual consultation, such as in a horary chart, the 7th house signifies the astrologer, with the 1st signifying
the querent. In this case the astrologer acts as a consultant and is placed on the ASC/DESC axis. Thus it's notreally a matter of astrology itself but of the person you engage with for help and guidance.
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*rose*Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #6 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1] »i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects of astrology. you can not say one house orplanet rules it, because you need all the aspects to make the whole. If you are thinking the unknown part ofastrology i would say 12th house/neptune, depth and power of it i would say pluto or the 8th house...etc

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #7 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:41 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:37 [UT+1]:
Deborah Houlding, the house expert, lists the 9th for astrologers and astrology. In actual consultation, such as in a horary chart, the 7thhouse signifies the astrologer, with the 1st signifying the querent.

I wasn't arguing with you. I was differing over the use of the word "rules".
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #8 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 17.08.2011 at 21:41 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:37 [UT+1]:
Deborah Houlding, the house expert, lists the 9th for astrologers and astrology. In actual consultation, such as in a horary
chart, the 7th house signifies the astrologer, with the 1st signifying the querent.

I wasn't arguing with you. I was differing over the use of the word "rules".

Not to worry. I wasn't replying to you!
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #9 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:45 [UT+1] »I couldn't tell, to be honest.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #10 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1] »Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects of astrology. you can not say one house or planet rules it, because youneed all the aspects to make the whole. If you are thinking the unknown part of astrology i would say 12thhouse/neptune, depth and power of it i would say pluto or the 8th house...etc

Oh Lordy! It's the 'fractured mess' approach.
Historically, western horoscopic astrology comes right out of the Greek philosophical tradition, as does modern
science. 9th house, pure and simple.
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Stephen Baxter

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #11 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1] »Some aspects of astrology are ruled by Uranus and others by Pluto. According to The Combination of Stellar
Influences astrology and astrologers are most often symbolized by Mercury/Uranus, especially
Mercury/Uranus/MC.
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #12 - on: 17.08.2011 at 21:55 [UT+1] »So we should take mathematics, the study of history, and basket weaving, and say that some aspects of them
are ruled by one planet and other aspects of them are ruled by another planet?
What has happened to astrology? Why is there now this persistent need to break everything down intofragments and then assign those broken pieces to all sorts of planets, asteroids and obscure gods andgoddesses? There's almost a fear of commitment to one planet or astrological factor, and a fear of appearing
narrow-minded by not pointing out every dark nook and cranny of everything.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #13 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:00 [UT+1] »The Occult is a fairly vast subject that includes Tarot, The Afterlife, Yoga and astrology. To that extent,
astrologers may show the connection through Scorpio, Eighth, or Pluto contacts. Uranus rules parts of science(notice that science is not monolithic either, but complex) as well as parts of astrology. I think parts ofastrology are ruled by Neptune to the extent that many astrologers do so for motivations that are more closely
tied to Neptune (Mars-square-Netpune is very common in astrologers). Given the common lack of accord wefind here, it should not be surprising.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #14 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 22:00 [UT+1]:
The Occult is a fairly vast subject that includes Tarot, The Afterlife, Yoga and astrology. To that
extent, astrologers may show the connection through Scorpio, Eighth, or Pluto contacts. Uranus rules
parts of science (notice that science is not monolithic either, but complex) as well as parts of astrology. I think parts of astrology are ruled
by Neptune to the extent that many astrologers do so for motivations that are more closely tied to Neptune (Mars-square-Netpune is very
common in astrologers). Given the common lack of accord we find here, it should not be surprising.

This is all traditionally 9th house material. Religion and divination, the philosophical and religious practice of
yoga, are comfortably still placed in the 9th house.
Along comes the popular concept of Scorpio's occult connection and we're running with 'Hey! Scorpio, Pluto
and the 8th house are all connected!' and we start spilling over into the 8th house. Then comes the supposed
direct line to alleged Pisces-Neptune spirituality and we're sprinting across the chart to the 12th house.
In other words: The alleged sign/house connection once again has shown itself to make a mess of astrology.
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Darkerhorse

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #15 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:13 [UT+1] »I agree with Ed Fails about rules being too strong, but certainly astrology must be associated with one house oranother, everything else is.

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MialiseMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #16 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:15 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Some aspects of astrology are ruled by Uranus and others by Pluto. According to The Combination of Stellar Influences astrology andastrologers are most often symbolized by Mercury/Uranus, especially Mercury/Uranus/MC.

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HA! I have CmO in 12th q MC.
I am hooked on astrology for years now, and spend almost every minute of free time reading your posts here
on forum or some astrology text. Although I am far away from being able to interpret a chart

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Darkerhorse

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #17 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:18 [UT+1] »does than include mine?

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #18 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:18 [UT+1] »I refer the readers to The Astrologer's Handbook for more information in this area. Zappo follows a woman hecallls THE expert on houses. Zappo tries to contradict most of the tenets of astrology that are not the flatearth astrology he proselytizes. There are flat-earth, fringe, fanatic sites on the web where Zappo could go, butsince he won't I will continue to point out that he is merely being subversive and hostile to ideas he personallydislikes. He knows there are plenty of novices here who will be confused.
The Ninth House does rule philosphy, religion, codified thought, ethics, theories, and astrologers would benefit
from these things. Many astrologers have college degrees (another Ninth House matter) but it does not followthat Ninth House rules astrology or the occult. The number of astrologers who recongnize the link between
Eighth and occult is vast.
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MialiseMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #19 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:21 [UT+1] »I just now remember reading a text by British astrologer Pam Crane, where she points out that through her
research she found that all prominent astrologers have asteroid Urania on angles

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #20 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1] »But knowledge is not a democracy - even though conventional agreements play a large role in it. We're stillfacing the epistemological question of how do we know what we know (and what we don't).
There are plenty of non-flat-earth astrologers whose positions are closer to Zappo's than to Zip Dobyn's. Marc
Edmund Jones comes to mind as one who was particularly enlightened. And that's not to "dis" CEO Carter atall. There are plenty of great astrologers who have held foolish opinions.
- Ed
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #21 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:25 [UT+1] »Zappo called his output the traditional view. Here is what Lilly (tradition) said about the Ninth House
By this house we give judgement of voyages or long journeys beyond seas; of religious men, or clergy of any
kind, whether bishops or inferior ministers; dreams, visions, foreign countries; of books, learning, church
livings, or benefices, advowsons [8]; of the kindred of one's wife [9], & sic e contrario [10].
Of colours it hath the green and white.
Of man's body it ruleth the fundament [11], the hips and thighs. Sagittarius and Jupiter are cosignificators of
this house; for if Jupiter be herein placed it naturally signifies a devout man in his religion, or one modestly
given; I have oft observed when the Dragon's Tail, or Mars or Saturn have been unfortunately placed in thishouse; the Querent hath either been little better than an atheist or a desperate sectarist: The Sun rejoyceth to
be in this house, which is masculine, and cadent.
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Darkerhorse
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #22 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:25 [UT+1] »that makes perfect sense because i don't have Uranus on an angle

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #23 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:25 [UT+1] »Here is what Lilly said about the 8th.

The estate of men deceased, death, its quality and nature; the wills, legacies and testaments of men deceased;
dowry of the wife, portion of the maid, whether much or little, easy to be obtained or with difficulty. In duels it
represents the adversary's second; in lawsuits the defendant's friends. What kind of death a man shall die. It
signifies fear and anguish of mind. Who shall enjoy or be heir to the deceased.
It rules the privy-parts. Of colours, the green and black.
Of signs it hath Scorpio for cosignificator, and Saturn, the haemorrhoids, the stone,[6] strangury [7] , poisons,and bladder are ruled.....
CA., p.55.....by this house; and [it] is a succeedent house, and feminine.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Stephen Baxter
Ex Member« Reply #24 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1] »Zappo has his own mystifying agenda that is not a boon to astrology.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #25 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Mialise on 17.08.2011 at 22:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Some aspects of astrology are ruled by Uranus and others by Pluto. According to The Combination of Stellar Influences
astrology and astrologers are most often symbolized by Mercury/Uranus, especially Mercury/Uranus/MC.

HA! I have

CmO in 12th q MC.

I am hooked on astrology for years now, and spend almost every minute of free time reading your posts here on forum or reading someastrology text

Does this show that Uranus rules astrology or that the mental interests of Mercury tend to break away from thesocietal norms, with astrology being one of those 'rebellious' interests? I wouldn't necessarily see this as aconfirmation that Uranus rules astrology.

Mercury is the traditional ruler of astrology. It, rather than Jupiter (as commonly believed), is also the
traditional ruler of philosophy and mathematics. Combine mathematics with natural philosophy - today's
modern science - and you have astrology. Place that study in the 9th house of higher learning.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #26 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:29 [UT+1] »Notice that Lilly (Mr. Tradition) says that Saj and Jupiter are co-significators of the 9th house, when Zappo has
always asailed other astrologers for saying similar things. This shows a strong link between house-sign. Others
say it is a fire house, and I agree.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

*rose*

Member« Reply #27 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:32 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects of astrology. you can not say one house or planet rules it,
because you need all the aspects to make the whole. If you are thinking the unknown part ofastrology i would say 12th house/neptune, depth and power of it i would say pluto or
the 8th house...etc

Posts: 117
Gender:

Oh Lordy! It's the 'fractured mess' approach.
Historically, western horoscopic astrology comes right out of the Greek philosophical tradition, as does modern science. 9th house, pureand simple.

]

haha...well, think about it this way...
what part of you rules you? Would you say your brain? but if you were to say your brain and we took away all
the other parts of what made u you, your brain would be virtually useless and unable to function.
the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it and everything else.
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MialiseMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #28 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Darkerhorse on 17.08.2011 at 22:25 [UT+1]:
that makes perfect sense because i don't have Uranus on an angle

Darkerhorse it is not planet Uranus, but asteroid Urania...you can add this asteroid to your chart here as it isPosts: 660
Gender:listed in asteroid selection...I think it is no. 30

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

ZappoIIEx Member« Reply #29 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:36 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 22:29 [UT+1]:
Notice that Lilly (Mr. Tradition) says that Saj and Jupiter are co-significators of the 9th house, when
Zappo has always asailed other astrologers for saying similar things. This shows a strong link between house-sign. Others say it is a firehouse, and I agree.

Dear Stephen,
Do you hear the chorus of voices shouting at you the so often repeated fact that the signs in connection withthe houses were used for medical astrology only?
This Lilly thing is brought up again and again. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp thepoint. Unless, well, it shows how conservative and tied to personal and intensely subjective belief modern
astrology truly can be.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #30 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:40 [UT+1] »Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 22:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects of astrology. you can not say one house orplanet rules it, because you need all the aspects to make the whole. If you are thinking the

unknown part of astrology i would say 12th house/neptune, depth andpower of it i would say pluto or the 8th house...etc

Oh Lordy! It's the 'fractured mess' approach.
Historically, western horoscopic astrology comes right out of the Greek philosophical tradition, as does modern science. 9thhouse, pure and simple.
]

haha...well, think about it this way...
what part of you rules you? Would you say your brain? but if you were to say your brain and we took away all the other parts of whatmade u you, your brain would be virtually useless and unable to function.

the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it and everything else.

You can only be an astrology dabbler. Such an approach makes for vague, impractical, and unworkableastrology. Your approach can only be useful for passing time in astrology online forums.
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Darkerhorse

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #31 - on: 17.08.2011 at 22:46 [UT+1] »thanks for the clarification. I'll generate a new chart with Urania and see what happens.

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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #32 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:03 [UT+1] »For Stephen:
Here's Lilly on the 9th house (which I've copied from your post without verifying it for accuracy):
By this house we give judgement of voyages or long journeys beyond seas; of religious men, or clergy of any
kind, whether bishops or inferior ministers; dreams, visions, foreign countries; of books, learning, church
livings, or benefices, advowsons [8]; of the kindred of one's wife [9], & sic e contrario [10].
Of colours it hath the green and white.
Of man's body it ruleth the fundament [11], the hips and thighs. Sagittarius and Jupiter are cosignificators of
this house; for if Jupiter be herein placed it naturally signifies a devout man in his religion, or one modestly
given; I have oft observed when the Dragon's Tail, or Mars or Saturn have been unfortunately placed in thishouse; the Querent hath either been little better than an atheist or a desperate sectarist: The Sun rejoyceth to
be in this house, which is masculine, and cadent.
Notice how Sag & Jupiter are listed after the parts of the body signified by the 9th. The text flows
from the body directly into mention of Sagittarius - the sign is mentioned in a context concerning the humanbody. There is discussion of Jupiter and personal qualities, but of Sagittarius nothing is said.

Here's Lilly on the 8th house (as presented by you):
The estate of men deceased, death, its quality and nature; the wills, legacies and testaments of men deceased;
dowry of the wife, portion of the maid, whether much or little, easy to be obtained or with difficulty. In duels it
represents the adversary's second; in lawsuits the defendant's friends. What kind of death a man shall die. It
signifies fear and anguish of mind. Who shall enjoy or be heir to the deceased.
It rules the privy-parts. Of colours, the green and black.
Of signs it hath Scorpio for cosignificator, and Saturn, the haemorrhoids, the stone,[6] strangury [7] ,poisons, and bladder are ruled.....

CA., p.55.....by this house; and [it] is a succeedent house, and feminine.

Once again, Scorpio is mentioned in close proximity to discussion of the body.
Lilly wrote the book quickly after having fled London during an outbreak of plague and with plague deaths
occurring in his household. He didn't know if he was going to survive or not. The book is surprisingly usefuldespite the tense circumstances it was written under, yet it can still be confusing and hard to work with. Also,
the editorial and publishing standards weren't we what we are now used to, so there can be a bit of ramblingand disjointedness. The most important thing is to look to his discussions of actual charts. As far as I know,
he doesn't ever link signs with houses in a more general way in his many discussion of charts.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

*rose*

Member« Reply #33 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:04 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 22:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 22:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects of astrology. you can not say

Posts: 117
Gender:one house or planet rules it, because you need all the aspects to make the whole. If you

are thinking the unknown part of astrology i would say 12thhouse/neptune, depth and power of it i would say pluto or the 8thhouse...etc

Oh Lordy! It's the 'fractured mess' approach.
Historically, western horoscopic astrology comes right out of the Greek philosophical tradition, as does
modern science. 9th house, pure and simple.
]

haha...well, think about it this way...
what part of you rules you? Would you say your brain? but if you were to say your brain and we took away all the otherparts of what made u you, your brain would be virtually useless and unable to function.

the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it andeverything else.

You can only be an astrology dabbler. Such an approach makes for vague, impractical, and unworkable astrology. Your approach can only
be useful for passing time in astrology online forums.

how does it make for "vague impractical unworkable astrology?" what a bizzare statement. Judging from youroffensive response, it seems as if your ego is getting in the way of an open mind. please, enlighten me, allknowing astrological master as to how the whole being greater than its parts theory makes for vague
impractical and unworkable astrology
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #34 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1] »Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 23:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 22:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 22:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects of astrology. you
can not say one house or planet rules it, because you need all the aspects to makethe whole. If you are thinking the unknown part of astrology iwould say 12th house/neptune, depth and power of it iwould say pluto or the 8th house...etc

Oh Lordy! It's the 'fractured mess' approach.
Historically, western horoscopic astrology comes right out of the Greek philosophical tradition,
as does modern science. 9th house, pure and simple.
]

haha...well, think about it this way...
what part of you rules you? Would you say your brain? but if you were to say your brain and we took away
all the other parts of what made u you, your brain would be virtually useless and unable to function.

the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it
and everything else.

You can only be an astrology dabbler. Such an approach makes for vague, impractical, and unworkable astrology. Yourapproach can only be useful for passing time in astrology online forums.

how does it make for "vague impractical unworkable astrology?" what a bizzare statement. Judging from your offensive response, it seems
as if your ego is getting in the way of an open mind. please, enlighten me, all knowing astrological master as to how the whole being
greater than its parts theory makes for vague impractical and unworkable astrology"to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it and everything else."

This can only be good for forum discussion astrology, theoretical astrology. Something to talk about.
I wasn't merely trying to be rude. I simply can't see a hands-on working astrologer truly believing this andworking successfully with it.

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Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #35 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:26 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 23:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 22:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 22:32 [UT+1]:

Posts: 117
Gender:Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from yrose on 17.08.2011 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
i would say that each planet/house attributes to certain aspects ofastrology. you can not say one house or planet rules it, because you need
all the aspects to make the whole. If you are thinking the

unknown part of astrology i would say 12thhouse/neptune, depth and power of it i would say
pluto or the 8th house...etc

Oh Lordy! It's the 'fractured mess' approach.
Historically, western horoscopic astrology comes right out of the Greek philosophicaltradition, as does modern science. 9th house, pure and simple.
]

haha...well, think about it this way...
what part of you rules you? Would you say your brain? but if you were to say your brain and we
took away all the other parts of what made u you, your brain would be virtually useless andunable to function.

the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the
purpose of it and everything else.

You can only be an astrology dabbler. Such an approach makes for vague, impractical, and unworkableastrology. Your approach can only be useful for passing time in astrology online forums.

how does it make for "vague impractical unworkable astrology?" what a bizzare statement. Judging from your offensive
response, it seems as if your ego is getting in the way of an open mind. please, enlighten me, all knowing astrologicalmaster as to how the whole being greater than its parts theory makes for vague impractical and unworkable astrology"to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it and everythingelse."
This can only be good for forum discussion astrology, theoretical astrology. Something to talk about.
I wasn't merely trying to be rude. I simply can't see a hands-on working astrologer truly believing this and working successfully with it.

what i mean by when i said that is you can not have an astrological house or a planet rule all of astrology, it
just simply doesn't make sense, as every house and planet is already a part of astrology. what you can do isfigure out what you are trying to solve or do and look to the planet or house for guidance as they are the"ruler" in that particular situation.
I can definitely see a hands on working astrologer believing this and working successfully with it, as my aunt
and grandmother were/are both very successful astrologers practicing this theory
maybe what im thinking isnt translating very well into writing, this mercury retrograde is affecting me pretty
strongly
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #36 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:38 [UT+1] »Astrology, as a subject, is ruled by the 9th house. Interpreters of the symbolism of astrology, i.e. Astrologers,
are ruled by Mercury.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #37 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1]:
Zappo has his own mystifying agenda that is not a boon to astrology.

Let's stick to the astrology. Whenever we need to resort to personal attacks we reveal that we're scraping thebarrel of intellect and our debating abilities.
As for Lilly, he assigns medical signification to the houses and signs and notes their similarity. He does not do
this with planets, instead he follows the Chaldean order. He also does not refer to houses as elements.
What we see is that there are indeed links between signs and houses and that this link is medical astrology.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #38 - on: 17.08.2011 at 23:51 [UT+1] »Quote:
the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it and everything else.

Exactly. You're inadvertently proving Zappo right. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, so do not slice
it down into little pieces, keep it as a whole. Astrology is astrology, we do not need to break it into little pieces.
We can keep it whole and, as a whole, assign it a planet, just like we do everything else.
Take religion for example. There's so much to it, from academia to ritual to prayer to morality etc but we nevercompartmentalise it like that, we just call it religion and religion can be assigned the 9th. Similarly we don't
compartmentalise the parts of astrology, we keep it whole and call it astrology and assign it the 9th along withall other higher learning, searches for god, divination and prophecy.
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Darkerhorse

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #39 - on: 18.08.2011 at 00:09 [UT+1] »I don't think anyone "knows for sure". Western astrology is not an absolute science in that sense.

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Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #40 - on: 18.08.2011 at 02:01 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 17.08.2011 at 23:51 [UT+1]:
Quote:
the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
to assign power to one particular house or planet destroys the purpose of it and everything else.

Posts: 117
Gender:Exactly. You're inadvertently proving Zappo right. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, so do not slice

it down into little pieces, keep it as a whole. Astrology is astrology, we do not need to break it
into little pieces. We can keep it whole and, as a whole, assign it a planet, just like we doeverything else.
Take religion for example. There's so much to it, from academia to ritual to prayer to morality etc but we never compartmentalise it like
that, we just call it religion and religion can be assigned the 9th. Similarly we don't compartmentalise the parts of astrology, we keep it
whole and call it astrology and assign it the 9th along with all other higher learning, searches for god, divination and prophecy.

i see what your saying but disagree. there are different sects of astrology, therefore there is a ruler assigned toeach one. how could you ever designate a single planet to be ruler of all astrology?!
but if that is your belief i vote pluto
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #41 - on: 18.08.2011 at 02:42 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 22:29 [UT+1]:
Notice that Lilly (Mr. Tradition) says that Saj and Jupiter are co-significators of the 9th house, when Zappo has always asailed otherastrologers for saying similar things. This shows a strong link between house-sign. Others say it is a fire house, and I agree.

Posts: 1210
Gender:

Lilly mentions little bits of info like this, but there's no evidence he actually used it. He also mentions different
ways of showing a house ruler, but only seemed to use the domicile lord.
The bottom line, is that in actual delineation, he never used Scorpio as a co-significator, or at least it's not in
print, nor did any other traditional astrologer.
I wouldn't call Lilly "Mr. Tradition", but that's your thing.

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #42 - on: 18.08.2011 at 02:47 [UT+1] »Actually practically speaking, I don't even know if it's that important to say "astrology is ruled by x house".
Most traditional writers do say it's the 9th either implicitly or explicitly.
However, in normal natal chart reading, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. The 9th, and all the other houses,
Posts: 1210
Gender:rule a bunch of things. If I see a strong 9th house (I actually have one), the first thing I see isn't "astrology",
it's traveling, foreigners, and religion in all forms. Not everyone who has a strong 9th or even strong *insert
whatever planet you say rules astrology* is going to be an astrologer.
If someone asks about them being an astrologer, then cool run with it.
Now in horary it's a different story. The astrologer, assuming they are the one doing the chart is the 7th. That
WILL come up in readings, so it's a different story.

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websiteEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #43 - on: 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Mialise on 17.08.2011 at 22:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Some aspects of astrology are ruled by Uranus and others by Pluto. According to The Combination of Stellar
Influences astrology and astrologers are most often symbolized by Mercury/Uranus, especially
Mercury/Uranus/MC.

HA! I have

CmO in 12th q MC.

I am hooked on astrology for years now, and spend almost every minute of free time reading your posts here on forum or
reading some astrology text

Does this show that Uranus rules astrology or that the mental interests of Mercury tend to break away from the societal norms, withastrology being one of those 'rebellious' interests? I wouldn't necessarily see this as a confirmation that Uranus rules astrology.

Mercury is the traditional ruler of astrology. It, rather than Jupiter (as commonly believed), is also the traditional ruler of philosophy andmathematics. Combine mathematics with natural philosophy - today's modern science - and you have astrology. Place that study in the
9th house of higher learning.

I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology with no prompting fromanyone during my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #44 - on: 18.08.2011 at 03:22 [UT+1] »Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Mialise on 17.08.2011 at 22:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Some aspects of astrology are ruled by Uranus and others by Pluto. According to The
Combination of Stellar Influences astrology and astrologers are most often symbolized by
Mercury/Uranus, especially Mercury/Uranus/MC.

HA! I have

CmO in 12th q MC.

I am hooked on astrology for years now, and spend almost every minute of free time reading your posts
here on forum or reading some astrology text

Does this show that Uranus rules astrology or that the mental interests of Mercury tend to break away from the societal
norms, with astrology being one of those 'rebellious' interests? I wouldn't necessarily see this as a confirmation that Uranus
rules astrology.

Mercury is the traditional ruler of astrology. It, rather than Jupiter (as commonly believed), is also the traditional ruler ofphilosophy and mathematics. Combine mathematics with natural philosophy - today's modern science - and you haveastrology. Place that study in the 9th house of higher learning.

I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology with noprompting from anyone during my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

Well, for one thing, if a planet is conjunct the MC with a quadrant system like Placidus then I would say it isassociated with 10th house affairs. The conjunction with a house cusp places the planet within that house. It
doesn't make much sense otherwise.
With Whole Sign houses the MC can be located IN the 9th house, so a planet conjunct the MC could be a 9thhouse planet. The midheaven is used somewhat differently with Whole Sign houses.

By using yourself as an example of why you think Uranus rules astrology you are completely ignoring more
fundamental chart factors which could be pointing to an interest in astrology. And using oneself and one's
chart to establish and confirm astrological symbolism and procedure is always very limited and risky.
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Peacewalker

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #45 - on: 18.08.2011 at 03:31 [UT+1] »I had a friend show me my chart a few years ago. I was hooked immediately. I always attributed it to 10H O inh and 8H A o I.
Posts: 139
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Darkerhorse
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #46 - on: 18.08.2011 at 13:29 [UT+1] »walker, that's pretty specific

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #47 - on: 18.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1] »Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology with no prompting from anyone during my teenage
years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

I have nothing conjunct my MC and so, by this logic, having also gravitated toward astrology with noprompting from anyone during my teenage years, I conclude that nothing rules astrology.
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IP LoggedJogi64
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #48 - on: 18.08.2011 at 14:17 [UT+1] »It is said by modern astrologers that the discovery of the new planets (H, I and J) mirrors the existing levelof the collective consciousness and that there is an analogy of the planet's meanings to the occurrences of thattime.
When H rules astrology - how is it possible that astrology started to develop a few thousand years ago and wasan important part of many ancient societies? Why is it possible that astrology existed before 1781? And how
were ancient astrologers able to speak, think and write about astrology, when the planet that rules astrology
wasn't even detected?
Posts: 1042
Gender:C is and has always been the planet of astrology and of astrologers, because astrology is above all about Cthings: observing, calculating, analyzing and interpreting signs and symbols and communicate their meaning
and content. We may see H as an intuitive energy and the planet of sudden insights - but these are no traits
that are essential for being an astrologer or for astrology as a whole. I don`t deny that intuition can be helpful.
But to be honest: We cannot willingly activate our intuition and before the light of intuition (H) can strike us,
there must be the logical and analyzing devotion with a certain topic (C).
If modern astrology sticks to its own logic, than it must admit that H cannot be the ruler of astrology in itself.
Notwithstanding that H can support astrological work.

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #49 - on: 18.08.2011 at 14:21 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 17.08.2011 at 22:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 22:29 [UT+1]:

Notice that Lilly (Mr. Tradition) says that Saj and Jupiter are co-significators of the 9thhouse, when Zappo has always asailed other astrologers for saying similar things. This shows a strong link between
house-sign. Others say it is a fire house, and I agree.

Dear Stephen,
Do you hear the chorus of voices shouting at you the so often repeated fact that the signs in connection with the houses were used for
medical astrology only?
This Lilly thing is brought up again and again. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp the point. Unless, well, it shows how
conservative and tied to personal and intensely subjective belief modern astrology truly can be.

I bring it up because you insist you are right by some imagined consensus in the past. In fact, your origins are
murky and often at odds with Lilly who is the best known from such a past. I bring it up because your logic is
fuzzy and your reasoning chaotic. You claim the past supports you until it is shown that you are at odds withothers from the past.
You claim astrology is ruled by Mercury because that was the view of ancient astrologers who knew nothing of
Uranus, Pluto and Neptune. You have no justification for blind ignorance, countless astrologers have moved on
and demonstrated the power and principles of the outer planets. You can do nothing but protest.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #50 - on: 18.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1] »(I have not read all the posts in this thread)

Posts: 17033

Uranus rules the science of Astrology.
Learning astrology, practicing astrology....being GOOD and accurate at astrology, well, that would takecombinations of planets, and at least one aspect that describes a person who is enthusiastic, patient and above
all, curious about this subject in general, and probably human nature in particular.
The study of astrology is really "open - ended".....you never "finish" learning.
This fact makes most people temporary students. To be an accurate astrologer you need to be willing to learn
more even after years of study. This fact assures that most people will never be astrologers.
It's an unusual trait - a Uranian trait - that can keep someone fascinated with actual learning - after say 10 or
20 years of study.
In the end, I believe it is a "calling."
Astrology is not Neptunian. It is not occult. It is not 12th house. It is open and available to everyone whotakes the time and energy to learn it correctly.
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IP LoggedMichelle

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #51 - on: 18.08.2011 at 15:49 [UT+1] »C makes sense for ruling astrology before the outers were discovered, but O makes sense for ruling it now.
Many of the astrologers who developed computerized software for astrology were born in the '40's with O inc. So there CO blends. We know a good aspect for an astrologer to have is a CO aspect, but there aremany more.
Which house does astrology belong to? A child can learn astrology. Astrology isn't taught in many universities.
People generally learn it on their own. Generally, learning astrology requires books for study, but someastrologers have learned astrology in their dreams or from a guide. Some astrologers are left-brained andfollow logic, while others are right-brained, abstract thinkers, and follow their intuition. Bernadette Brady calls
it the Eagle and the Lark, and says ideally an astrologer should be both. People that are interested in learning
it do so spending much time in solitude. It can be a lifetime study. Sometimes people don't tell anyone
they're doing it. They keep it a secret from their family or friends for fear they'll become an outcast. Some
astrologers have been taken to court, accused of being a fortune teller. There are no formal rules for astrology.
Even amongst our group here, we each have our own unique way of using astrology. We can't agree on much.
We try to convince the other to practice astrology our way. We invalidate the other for the way they practice
astrology. Some will even try to humiliate the other to try to prove their point. Some charge for it. For
others, it's a hobby. Astrologers as a group aren't unified, the so-called Group of One, but there are likeminded astrologers who form or belong to groups.
If anyone wants to study the charts of astrologers I'll attach a link:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Vocation_:_Occult_Fields_:_Astrolog er
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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #52 - on: 18.08.2011 at 20:29 [UT+1] »Greene has C in 9 and so do the first two samples in DataBank under Astrologer.
I have 9 house Virgo w/o planets and Mercury in 1 so it might explain my interest in this subject.
Edited - This search is for Astrologer with Research in Namespace

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ZappoII

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #53 - on: 18.08.2011 at 20:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Linda Harris on 18.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1]:(I have not read all the posts in this thread)

Uranus rules the science of Astrology.
Learning astrology, practicing astrology....being GOOD and accurate at astrology, well, that would take combinations of planets, and at
least one aspect that describes a person who is enthusiastic, patient and above all, curious about this subject in general, and probably
human nature in particular.
The study of astrology is really "open - ended".....you never "finish" learning.
This fact makes most people temporary students. To be an accurate astrologer you need to be willing to learn more even after years ofstudy. This fact assures that most people will never be astrologers.
It's an unusual trait - a Uranian trait - that can keep someone fascinated with actual learning - after say 10 or 20 years of study.
In the end, I believe it is a "calling."
Astrology is not Neptunian. It is not occult. It is not 12th house. It is open and available to everyone who takes the time and energy tolearn it correctly.
LainieThat's it? A simple declaration that we are just supposed to accept as fact? Compare it to Jogi's reasons for
Mercury ruling astrology:"C is and has always been the planet of astrology and of astrologers, because astrology is above all about Cthings: observing, calculating, analyzing and interpreting signs and symbols and communicate their meaning
and content. We may see H as an intuitive energy and the planet of sudden insights - but these are no traits
that are essential for being an astrologer or for astrology as a whole. I don`t deny that intuition can be helpful.
But to be honest: We cannot willingly activate our intuition and before the light of intuition (H) can strike us,
there must be the logical and analyzing devotion with a certain topic (C). "Astrology was developed using the studies of mathematics and philosophy - concerns of Mercury. Mathematics,
philosophy, and astrology are still around and active, so why is Mercury now out of the picture? No one has yet
given a convincing reason why Uranus should now get the job of ruling astrology. Why? What is so different
now? People still calculate and think; they still do Mercury things.
I think the most likely reason Uranus is given astrology is because that is what people have been told and havelearned for some years now. Few people seemed to realize that there already was a planet for astrology so theygave it to wild and wacky, rebellious New Age Uranus. Astrology is NOW; Uranus is NOW --- that sort ofsilliness. I first started astrology around 1970 and don't remember ever coming across references to Mercury
until just a few years ago. But things are changing. Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology pops up more
frequently in discussions these days and appears to be easily and quickly accepted by more people starting out
in astrology.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #54 - on: 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1] »How old are you ZappoII ? if you started to study astrology in 1970 & you were in your 20's are you now inyour 60's ? mabe 70's
you seem younger than that.
Posts: 1185
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Stephen Baxter

Ex Member« Reply #55 - on: 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 20:45 [UT+1]:
Quote from Linda Harris on 18.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1]:(I have not read all the posts in this thread)

Uranus rules the science of Astrology.
Learning astrology, practicing astrology....being GOOD and accurate at astrology, well, that would take combinations ofplanets, and at least one aspect that describes a person who is enthusiastic, patient and above all, curious about thissubject in general, and probably human nature in particular.
The study of astrology is really "open - ended".....you never "finish" learning.
This fact makes most people temporary students. To be an accurate astrologer you need to be willing to learn more evenafter years of study. This fact assures that most people will never be astrologers.
It's an unusual trait - a Uranian trait - that can keep someone fascinated with actual learning - after say 10 or 20 years ofstudy.
In the end, I believe it is a "calling."
Astrology is not Neptunian. It is not occult. It is not 12th house. It is open and available to everyone who takes the timeand energy to learn it correctly.
LainieThat's it? A simple declaration that we are just supposed to accept as fact? Compare it to Jogi's reasons for Mercury ruling astrology:"

C is and has always been the planet of astrology and of astrologers, because astrology is above all about C-things: observing,
H as an intuitive

calculating, analyzing and interpreting signs and symbols and communicate their meaning and content. We may see

energy and the planet of sudden insights - but these are no traits that are essential for being an astrologer or for astrology as a whole. I
don`t deny that intuition can be helpful. But to be honest: We cannot willingly activate our intuition and before the light of intuition (can strike us, there must be the logical and analyzing devotion with a certain topic (

H)

C). "

Astrology was developed using the studies of mathematics and philosophy - concerns of Mercury. Mathematics, philosophy, and astrology
are still around and active, so why is Mercury now out of the picture? No one has yet given a convincing reason why Uranus should now get
the job of ruling astrology. Why? What is so different now? People still calculate and think; they still do Mercury things.
I think the most likely reason Uranus is given astrology is because that is what people have been told and have learned for some years
now. Few people seemed to realize that there already was a planet for astrology so they gave it to wild and wacky, rebellious New Age
Uranus. Astrology is NOW; Uranus is NOW --- that sort of silliness. I first started astrology around 1970 and don't remember ever coming
across references to Mercury until just a few years ago. But things are changing. Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology pops up more
frequently in discussions these days and appears to be easily and quickly accepted by more people starting out in astrology.

In the 21st century you are clueless about the outer planets. That's silly.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #56 - on: 18.08.2011 at 20:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 18.08.2011 at 14:17 [UT+1]:
It is said by modern astrologers that the discovery of the new planets (H, I and J) mirrors theexisting level of the collective consciousness and that there is an analogy of the planet's
meanings to the occurrences of that time.
When H rules astrology - how is it possible that astrology started to develop a few thousand
years ago and was an important part of many ancient societies? Why is it possible that astrology
existed before 1781? And how were ancient astrologers able to speak, think and write about
astrology, when the planet that rules astrology wasn't even detected?

C is and has always been the planet of astrology and of astrologers, because astrology is above all about C-things: observing,
calculating, analyzing and interpreting signs and symbols and communicate their meaning and content. We may see H as an intuitiveenergy and the planet of sudden insights - but these are no traits that are essential for being an astrologer or for astrology as a whole. I
don`t deny that intuition can be helpful. But to be honest: We cannot willingly activate our intuition and before the light of intuition (can strike us, there must be the logical and analyzing devotion with a certain topic (If modern astrology sticks to its own logic, than it must admit that

H)

C).

H cannot be the ruler of astrology in itself. Notwithstanding that H

can support astrological work.

I'm giving everyone the chance to read this post again.
Quote:And how were ancient astrologers able to speak, think and write about astrology, when the planet that rules astrology wasn't evendetected?

I just don't get it. So few people seem to ask themselves this question. And if they say that Mercury was theold ruler of astrology, but now it's Uranus, how do they ever reach that conclusion? What is so different
now? Observation, calculation and thought are still observation, calculation and thought.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #57 - on: 18.08.2011 at 20:58 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 20:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 18.08.2011 at 14:17 [UT+1]:

It is said by modern astrologers that the discovery of the new planets (H, I and J)
mirrors the existing level of the collective consciousness and that there is an analogyof the planet's meanings to the occurrences of that time.
When H rules astrology - how is it possible that astrology started to develop a few
thousand years ago and was an important part of many ancient societies? Why is it
possible that astrology existed before 1781? And how were ancient astrologers able
to speak, think and write about astrology, when the planet that rules astrology wasn't
even detected?

C is and has always been the planet of astrology and of astrologers, because astrology is above all about C-things:
observing, calculating, analyzing and interpreting signs and symbols and communicate their meaning and content. We may
see

H as an intuitive energy and the planet of sudden insights - but these are no traits that are essential for being anastrologer or for astrology as a whole. I don`t deny that intuition can be helpful. But to be honest: We cannot willingly
activate our intuition and before the light of intuition (with a certain topic (H) can strike us, there must be the logical and analyzing devotion

C).

If modern astrology sticks to its own logic, than it must admit that
Notwithstanding that

H cannot be the ruler of astrology in itself.

H can support astrological work.

I'm giving everyone the chance to read this post again.

Quote:And how were ancient astrologers able to speak, think and write about astrology, when the planet that rules astrology
wasn't even detected?

I just don't get it. So few people seem to ask themselves this question. And if they say that Mercury was the old ruler of astrology, but
now it's Uranus, how do they ever reach that conclusion? What is so different now? Observation, calculation and thought are stillobservation, calculation and thought.

Spin randomly in a circle then stop and point and you will be pointing in the direction of an astrologer who
disagrees with you. The least you could do is say something meaningful other than you insist, you insist.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

ZappoIIEx Member« Reply #58 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:01 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 20:45 [UT+1]:
Quote from Linda Harris on 18.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1]:(I have not read all the posts in this thread)

Uranus rules the science of Astrology.
Learning astrology, practicing astrology....being GOOD and accurate at astrology, well, that would takecombinations of planets, and at least one aspect that describes a person who is enthusiastic, patient andabove all, curious about this subject in general, and probably human nature in particular.
The study of astrology is really "open - ended".....you never "finish" learning.
This fact makes most people temporary students. To be an accurate astrologer you need to be willing tolearn more even after years of study. This fact assures that most people will never be astrologers.
It's an unusual trait - a Uranian trait - that can keep someone fascinated with actual learning - after say 10
or 20 years of study.
In the end, I believe it is a "calling."
Astrology is not Neptunian. It is not occult. It is not 12th house. It is open and available to everyone whotakes the time and energy to learn it correctly.
LainieThat's it? A simple declaration that we are just supposed to accept as fact? Compare it to Jogi's reasons for Mercury rulingastrology:"

C is and has always been the planet of astrology and of astrologers, because astrology is above all about C-things:

observing, calculating, analyzing and interpreting signs and symbols and communicate their meaning and content. We may
see

H as an intuitive energy and the planet of sudden insights - but these are no traits that are essential for being anastrologer or for astrology as a whole. I don`t deny that intuition can be helpful. But to be honest: We cannot willingly
activate our intuition and before the light of intuition (with a certain topic (H) can strike us, there must be the logical and analyzing devotion

C). "Astrology was developed using the studies of mathematics and philosophy - concerns of Mercury. Mathematics, philosophy,
and astrology are still around and active, so why is Mercury now out of the picture? No one has yet given a convincing
reason why Uranus should now get the job of ruling astrology. Why? What is so different now? People still calculate andthink; they still do Mercury things.
I think the most likely reason Uranus is given astrology is because that is what people have been told and have learned forsome years now. Few people seemed to realize that there already was a planet for astrology so they gave it to wild andwacky, rebellious New Age Uranus. Astrology is NOW; Uranus is NOW --- that sort of silliness. I first started astrology
around 1970 and don't remember ever coming across references to Mercury until just a few years ago. But things arechanging. Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology pops up more frequently in discussions these days and appears to beeasily and quickly accepted by more people starting out in astrology.

In the 21st century you are clueless about the outer planets. That's silly.

This one's for Stephen (who won't even try to think about it):
"Observation, calculation and thought are still observation, calculation and thought."
The outer planets aren't needed for thought. Except, perhaps, by those who aren't able to perform those
activities and who need a fancy new planet to pour some illusive insight into their glass.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #59 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:
How old are you ZappoII ? if you started to study astrology in 1970 & you were in your 20's are
you now in your 60's ? mabe 70's
you seem younger than that.

Are we ridiculing people in their 60s and 70s? Are those people outdated and useless at this site where theaction, smarts and wisdom is to be found among the younger people?
You've said something stupid and cruel.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #60 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:14 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:01 [UT+1]:"Observation, calculation and thought are still observation, calculation and thought."

observation- we have greater powers of observation than ever before, and even thought of being possible,
than in the times of the ancient Greeks.

Posts: 3624

calculations- with the advent of the computer we can calculate mathematical equations that would have taken
an ancient Greek his whole lifetime, in the space of minutes and it is getter faster. there are even calculations
that make some old mathematical theories obsolete.
thought- we think alot more about issues that were completely irrelevant in the times of the ancient Greeks,an example is oil spills poisoning our oceans.

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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #61 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:18 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:

How old are you ZappoII ? if you started to study astrology in 1970 & you were in your20's are you now in your 60's ? mabe 70's
Posts: 1185
Gender:you seem younger than that.

Are we ridiculing people in their 60s and 70s? Are those people outdated and useless at this site where the action, smarts and wisdom is tobe found among the younger people?
You've said something stupid and cruel.

No I have not. People in their 60's & 70's are ok. I said you seemed younger , that is all.
I'm not saying something stupid & cruel. You have deliberately interpreted it that way.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #62 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:26 [UT+1] »Quote:
observation- we have greater powers of observation than ever before, and even thought of being possible, than in the times of theancient Greeks.

We do?
Please tell us more about our great modern powers of observation. Have you had any epochmaking observations lately?

Quote:
calculations- with the advent of the computer we can calculate mathematical equations that would have taken an ancient Greek hiswhole lifetime, in the space of minutes and it is getter faster. there are even calculations that make some old mathematical theories
obsolete.

Aren't you talking about our computers rather than ourselves?

Quote:
thought- we think alot more about issues that were completely irrelevant in the times of the ancient Greeks, an example is oil spills
poisoning our oceans.

Yes, we do think about stuff.
Internet.

Unless we're watching TV, playing computer games, or restlessly surfing the

I suppose it's a good thing we think about our oil spills. It's also worth pondering the fact that the ancients
didn't have oil spills and global poisoning of the ocean. Neither did they have the threat of nuclear
annihilation.
Yes, we do have plenty to think about.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #63 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:32 [UT+1] »Quote:The outer planets aren't needed for thought. Except, perhaps, by those who aren't able to perform those activities and who need a fancy
new planet to pour some illusive insight into their glass.

You've said such things before. It really sums you up. Your continuing protests are ridiculous. What drivel. It
is such a Neptunian way to move the lips and say nothing at all.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #64 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 21:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:

How old are you ZappoII ? if you started to study astrology in 1970 & youwere in your 20's are you now in your 60's ? mabe 70's
you seem younger than that.

Are we ridiculing people in their 60s and 70s? Are those people outdated and useless at this site where the action, smarts
and wisdom is to be found among the younger people?
You've said something stupid and cruel.

No I have not. People in their 60's & 70's are ok. I said you seemed younger , that is all.
I'm not saying something stupid & cruel. You have deliberately interpreted it that way.

Quote:
mabe 70's

What's so shocking and hilarious about a person being in his 70s?
If you really are interested, I'm in my 50s.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #65 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 18.08.2011 at 21:32 [UT+1]:
Quote:The outer planets aren't needed for thought. Except, perhaps, by those who aren't able to perform those activities and whoneed a fancy new planet to pour some illusive insight into their glass.

You've said such things before. It really sums you up. Your continuing protests are ridiculous. What drivel. It is such a Neptunian

way to move the lips and say nothing at all.

I'm typing.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #66 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:42 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 21:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:

Posts: 1185
Gender:How old are you ZappoII ? if you started to study astrology in 1970
& you were in your 20's are you now in your 60's ? mabe 70's
you seem younger than that.

Are we ridiculing people in their 60s and 70s? Are those people outdated and useless at this site where theaction, smarts and wisdom is to be found among the younger people?
You've said something stupid and cruel.

No I have not. People in their 60's & 70's are ok. I said you seemed younger , that is all.
I'm not saying something stupid & cruel. You have deliberately interpreted it that way.

Quote:

mabe 70's
What's so shocking and hilarious about a person being in his 70s?
If you really are interested, I'm in my 50s.

There is nothing shocking & hilarious about a person being in his 70's I just surprised that you might havebeen, you seem very young. It was meant as a compliment. I like people in their 70's they are very smart &clever most of the time. But I thought you seemed younger that's all. I'm 44 & people have always said to me I
seem very young, not just in looks but in other ways. I didn't mean to insult you or people in their 70's.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

ZappoIIEx Member« Reply #67 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:44 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 21:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:

How old are you ZappoII ? if you started to study astrology
in 1970 & you were in your 20's are you now in your 60's ?
mabe 70's
you seem younger than that.

Are we ridiculing people in their 60s and 70s? Are those people outdated and useless at this sitewhere the action, smarts and wisdom is to be found among the younger people?
You've said something stupid and cruel.

No I have not. People in their 60's & 70's are ok. I said you seemed younger , that is all.
I'm not saying something stupid & cruel. You have deliberately interpreted it that way.

Quote:

mabe 70's
What's so shocking and hilarious about a person being in his 70s?
If you really are interested, I'm in my 50s.

There is nothing shocking & hilarious about a person being in his 70's I just surprised that you might have been, you seem very young. It
was meant as a compliment. I like people in their 70's they are very smart & clever most of the time. But I thought you seemed younger
that's all. I'm 44 & people have always said to me I seem very young, not just in looks but in other ways. I didn't mean to insult you or
people in their 70's.

OK. I just took it too seriously and in the wrong way.

I shouldn't have jumped on you.

I'm sorry,Z.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #68 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:47 [UT+1] »Oh I would never deliberately hurt anyones feelings, unless they hurt mine first. You have not hurt mine so I
would not be mean to you it was a complimentno hard feelings then, good.

Posts: 1185
Gender:Back to top
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beyond the stars

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #69 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:50 [UT+1] »If there were a "like" button on Facebook for Zappo's apology, I'd click on it. I would Like Zappo on Facebook if
I could.
P.S. I agree with Ed; I do not think there is a house that 'rules' astrology, but I then agree with Zappo, I think
it was, who said, that if there is a house that encompasses astrological study, it 'ought' to be the 9th. I mean,
who can argue with that? I read that far, and then I read Zappo's apology. I skimmed the in-between parts
where there was all that interpersonal conflict and name-calling.
Posts: 1005
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #70 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Horisont on 18.08.2011 at 21:50 [UT+1]:
Did anyone ever figure out which house rules astrology in this thread? I've been skipping read it with great disinterest.

We got bored with it.
9th house.
However, I agree with Enlil's comment that a house doesn't really "rule" astrology - or anything else. Planets
rule things. The idea is that houses are where things and activities are found in the chart.

Quote:
I would Like Zappo on Facebook if I could.

Maybe you could like me here?

.....

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beyond the stars

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #71 - on: 18.08.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1] »ooh, someone replied faster than I could edit the above succinctly and clearly.
I could like you, but I can't Facebook like you. There's a huge difference.

Posts: 1005
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #72 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:03 [UT+1] »if this is the astrology of today then surely it is a 10th house affair?
if we could all come to some agreement and actually practise the astrology then it would become 11th house?
which would be in-line with Uranus as the ruler.

Posts: 3624

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #73 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:12 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 18.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology with no prompting from anyone during
my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

I have nothing conjunct my MC and so, by this logic, having also gravitated toward astrology with no prompting from anyone during my
teenage years, I conclude that nothing rules astrology.

That's rad, only I wasn't saying that everyone interested in astrology will definitely have Uranus in the 9th
and/or conjunct the Midheaven, in the first place. *shrug*
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loulouaz
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #74 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:14 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Horisont on 18.08.2011 at 21:50 [UT+1]:
Did anyone ever figure out which house rules astrology in this thread? I've been skipping read it with great disinterest.

Posts: 1185
Gender:We got bored with it.
9th house.
However, I agree with Enlil's comment that a house doesn't really "rule" astrology - or anything else. Planets rule things. The idea is thathouses are where things and activities are found in the chart.

Quote:
I would Like Zappo on Facebook if I could.

Maybe you could like me here?

. . . . .

I like you
sometimes. I think your approach to astrology is interesting compared to some other people around thisforum. Though I disagree with your opinions about the three outers. They are very important I think, esp if in
aspect to personal planets or luminaries.
How do you explain for example that lots & lots of people who are astrologers or who have a interest in
astrology have O on a angle or often m their ASC, or even in major aspect to their #Su or something like that
? Apologies if someone else has asked that, I have not read through the whole thread.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #75 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:19 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:26 [UT+1]:
Quote:
observation- we have greater powers of observation than ever before, and even thought of being possible, than in thetimes of the ancient Greeks.
We do?

Please tell us more about our great modern powers of observation. Have you had any epoch-making observations lately?

Sorry, you lose on that one. Just consider the advances brought on by calculus and Newcomb's astronomical
work, along with the technologies that have been enabled along the way. No question that we have incalculably
greater instruments of observation than, say, preceding Kepler. (Whether these technologically advanced
instruments of observation are focused on what's important is a different matter).
Quote:
Quote:
calculations- with the advent of the computer we can calculate mathematical equations that would have taken an ancient
Greek his whole lifetime, in the space of minutes and it is getter faster. there are even calculations that make some oldmathematical theories obsolete.
Aren't you talking about our computers rather than ourselves?

Same argument applies - although I would be more inclined to say that advances in mathematics have placed
older ones in a more sophisticated context rather than obsoleted them. It's not just computers. The "by hand"
method I use in my program, but have also used by hand with tables of trig functions, is infinitely superior tothat taught in older astrology books, and most new ones that treat the subject. Simpler and lacking all kindsof special casing.
Quote:
Quote:
thought- we think alot more about issues that were completely irrelevant in the times of the ancient Greeks, an example
is oil spills poisoning our oceans.
Yes, we do think about stuff.

Unless we're watching TV, playing computer games, or restlessly surfing the Internet.

I suppose it's a good thing we think about our oil spills. It's also worth pondering the fact that the ancients didn't have oil spills and global
poisoning of the ocean. Neither did they have the threat of nuclear annihilation.
Yes, we do have plenty to think about.

Indeed we do.
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #76 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:24 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 22:14 [UT+1]:

. . .

I

I like you
sometimes. I think your approach to astrology is interesting compared to some other people around this forum. Though I disagree withyour opinions about the three outers. They are very important I think, esp if in aspect to personal planets or luminaries.

How do you explain for example that lots & lots of people who are astrologers or who have ainterest in astrology have O on a angle or often m their ASC, or even in major aspect to their #Su
or something ?

haven't noticed that Uranus is all that often prominent in the charts of such people. Sometimes yes, sometimesno.

BUT - Aren't you casting a wide net?: " . . . have O on a angle or often m their ASC, or even in major
aspect to their A or something ?"On an angle, major aspect to the Sun, "or something".

I like that last one. We're gonna get Uranus in

there somehow.

It could be that Uranus is often involved in an interest in astrology. For me it isn't involved often enough toqualify it to take over Mercury's job.
Now I need to go outside and take care of some projects.

Any idea what's going on? 'I' is to the right of the quote box and the font is very small, even though it's still set
at 11. The rest of the sentence appears just below the quote box even though I have spaced it far down the
page. I can't seem to fix it.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #77 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:33 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 22:24 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 22:14 [UT+1]:. . .

Posts: 1185
Gender:I like you
sometimes. I think your approach to astrology is interesting compared to some other people around this forum. Though I
disagree with your opinions about the three outers. They are very important I think, esp if in aspect to personal planets orluminaries.

How do you explain for example that lots & lots of people who are astrologers or who
have a interest in astrology have O on a angle or often m their ASC, or even in major
aspect to their #Su or something ?

I haven't noticed that Uranus is all that often prominent in the charts of such people. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

BUT - Aren't you casting a wide net?: " . . . have

O on a angle or often m their ASC, or even in major aspect to their A or

something ?"On an angle, major aspect to the Sun, "or something".

I like that last one. We're gonna get Uranus in there somehow.

It could be that Uranus is often involved in an interest in astrology. For me it isn't involved often enough to qualify it to take overMercury's job.
Now I need to go outside and take care of some projects.

Any idea what's going on? 'I' is to the right of the quote box and the font is very small, even though it's still set at 11. I can't seem to fix
it.

Ok, O will usually be in aspect to the A or ASC in people who are interested in astrology. I thought it was thecase. Mabe it is not true then. But I always heard that said by people, mabe it was said by astrologers who have
O very active in their charts.
Oh well, another myth dispelled.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #78 - on: 18.08.2011 at 22:37 [UT+1] »http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Vocation_:_Occult_Fields_:_Astrolog erclicking on some these people will verify the assortment of chart patterns and placements.

Posts: 3624

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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #79 - on: 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1] »The ones I clicked on at random had O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it wasinvolved in a major square, involving the A or B or both.
O was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
Posts: 1185
Gender:I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #80 - on: 18.08.2011 at 23:18 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was involved in a major square,
A or B or both.
O was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
The ones I clicked on at random had
involving theI really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

Exactly.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #81 - on: 19.08.2011 at 10:00 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 18.08.2011 at 22:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 18.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology with no prompting fromanyone during my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

I have nothing conjunct my MC and so, by this logic, having also gravitated toward astrology with no prompting fromanyone during my teenage years, I conclude that nothing rules astrology.

That's rad, only I wasn't saying that everyone interested in astrology will definitely have Uranus in the 9th and/or conjunct the Midheaven,in the first place. *shrug*

Which is the exact point I'm making. It seemed as though a rationale for using Uranus to rule astrology was theidea that you have it in the 9th etc. I'm demonstrating how specious that reasoning is.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #82 - on: 19.08.2011 at 10:08 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:00 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 18.08.2011 at 22:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 18.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology with noprompting from anyone during my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

I have nothing conjunct my MC and so, by this logic, having also gravitated toward astrology with noprompting from anyone during my teenage years, I conclude that nothing rules astrology.

That's rad, only I wasn't saying that everyone interested in astrology will definitely have Uranus in the 9th and/or conjunctthe Midheaven, in the first place. *shrug*

Which is the exact point I'm making. It seemed as though a rationale for using Uranus to rule astrology was the idea that you have it in
the 9th etc. I'm demonstrating how specious that reasoning is.

Uh huh.
I wasn't saying the opposite to begin with though.
And....you again!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #83 - on: 19.08.2011 at 10:12 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 22:14 [UT+1]:

O

How do you explain for example that lots & lots of people who are astrologers or who have a interest in astrology haveon a angle oroften their ASC, or even in major aspect to their #Su or something like that ? Apologies if someone else has asked that, I have not readmthrough the whole thread.

That's a HUGELY wide net.
But besides that, where are all these astrologers that have Uranus on an angle and aspecting their Sun etc.
Where is the sample data that shows this? Also has it been compared to Saturn on an angle or in aspect to the
Sun as a control? Or for example compared against Uranus in a succeedent house aspecting Mercury? etc.
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:
The ones I clicked on at random had
involving theoror both.

A

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was involved in a major square,B

O was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

As a control I ALSO clicked some at random. I found that a malefic was also angular - as a control.
These are all just opened at random. Close my eyes and just clicked randomly.
Uranus angular, but also a malefic angular:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blackwell%2C_Arthur
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brady%2C_Bernadette
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Burk%2C_Kevin
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Arth%2C_Michel
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cristoff%2C_Boris
Uranus NOT angular, but do have angular malefics (saturn or mars):
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Daniel%2C_John_E.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cardinal%2C_Paul
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Buchwald%2C_Nicky
Neither uranus nor a malefic angular:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Charubel
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Collins%2C_Betty_J.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ashnual%2C_Joanna
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Anderson%2C_Theodora
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Campion%2C_Nick

I didn't open any that had Uranus angular without also having a malefic angular.

Conclusion: The idea that Uranus being angular suggests links with astrologers seems unfounded.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #84 - on: 19.08.2011 at 10:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:00 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 18.08.2011 at 22:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 18.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward astrology
with no prompting from anyone during my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

I have nothing conjunct my MC and so, by this logic, having also gravitated toward astrology
with no prompting from anyone during my teenage years, I conclude that nothing rules
astrology.

That's rad, only I wasn't saying that everyone interested in astrology will definitely have Uranus in the 9th
and/or conjunct the Midheaven, in the first place. *shrug*

Which is the exact point I'm making. It seemed as though a rationale for using Uranus to rule astrology was the idea thatyou have it in the 9th etc. I'm demonstrating how specious that reasoning is.

Uh huh.
I wasn't saying the opposite to begin with though.
And....you again!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

Which is why I hadn't replied to you, I had repleid to someone else.
As for the youtube link, when we resort to personal attacks we've clearly failed
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loulouaz

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #85 - on: 19.08.2011 at 11:58 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 22:14 [UT+1]:

O
m their ASC, or even in major aspect to their #Su or something like that ? Apologies if someone else

How do you explain for example that lots & lots of people who are astrologers or who have a interest in astrology haveon a angle or often

Posts: 1185
Gender:has asked that, I have not read through the whole thread.

That's a HUGELY wide net.
But besides that, where are all these astrologers that have Uranus on an angle and aspecting their Sun etc. Where is the sample data thatshows this? Also has it been compared to Saturn on an angle or in aspect to the Sun as a control? Or for example compared against
Uranus in a succeedent house aspecting Mercury? etc.
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was involved in a
A or B or both.

The ones I clicked on at random had
major square, involving theO was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

As a control I ALSO clicked some at random. I found that a malefic was also angular - as a control.
These are all just opened at random. Close my eyes and just clicked randomly.
Uranus angular, but also a malefic angular:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blackwell%2C_Arthur
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Brady%2C_Bernadette
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Burk%2C_Kevin
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Arth%2C_Michel
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cristoff%2C_Boris
Uranus NOT angular, but do have angular malefics (saturn or mars):
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Daniel%2C_John_E.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cardinal%2C_Paul
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Buchwald%2C_Nicky
Neither uranus nor a malefic angular:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Charubel
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Collins%2C_Betty_J.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ashnual%2C_Joanna
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Anderson%2C_Theodora
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Campion%2C_Nick

I didn't open any that had Uranus angular without also having a malefic angular.

Conclusion: The idea that Uranus being angular suggests links with astrologers seems unfounded.

what about these guys 'n girls thenno particular order, that's O for you :Graaf, Huub Van de
Erickson, Jimm
Hirzig, wernerEmerson, Charles
Hughes Robert
Gruetzner, Horst
Hoppman, Juergen
Hutter, Elias
Bausani, Allesander
Dieson, Georgianne
Delfino, Luiz
Centurio,
Nostradamus,
Byrnes, ronald,Laurence
Barbault,Armand,
Campion, Nick
Bailey,George
Dewohl, Lois
Dethlefsen, Thorwald
Granger,Phillipe
Agrippa Henri Cornelius
Blaschke, Robert P
Brady, Bernadette
Naegele, Johannes Charlson
Sylvie Chermet - Carrey
Dee, John
Georgianne, Dieson
Harvey, Axel
Downing, Mary B
Herschell
Hill, stephen
Arroyo, Stephen
Grant, Russell
Green, Jeff

Greene, Liz
Houck, Richard
Forrest, steven
Fludd, RobertFicino, Marsilio
Eshelman, James
Chalford, Ginger
Ertel, Suitbert
Houlding, deborah
Hickey, Isabel M
Goldschneider, gary
Hewitt, wWilliam M
Glover, Toni
probably there are many more too.
By the way if O is o or n the luminaries so what ? If it trines the luminaries it does not make it any the moreor less potent either, even if it is q . O has an unusual & unpredictable effect most of the time anyway.
Unless you are one how do you know if it is any the less or more potent if there is a malefic planet angular aswell ?

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #86 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 11:58 [UT+1]:
what about these guys 'n girls thenno particular order, that's

O for you :Graaf, Van de
Erickson, Jimm
Hirzig, wernerEmerson, Charles
Hughes Robert
Gruetzner, Horst
Hoppman, Juergen
Hutter, Elias
Bausani, Allesander
Dieson, Georgianne
Delfino, Luiz
Centurio,
Nostradamus,
Byrnes, ronald,Laurence
Barbault,Armand,
Campion, Nick
Bailey,George
Dewohl, Lois
Dethlefsen, Thorwald
Granger,Phillipe
Agrippa Henri Cornelius
Blaschke, Robert P
Brady, Bernadette
Naegele, Johannes Charlson
Sylvie Chermet - Carrey
Dee, John
Georgianne, Dieson
Harvey, Axel
Downing, Mary B
Herschell
Hill, stephen
Arroyo, Stephen
Grant, Russell
Green, Jeff
Greene, Liz
Houck, Richard
Forrest, steven
Fludd, RobertFicino, Marsilio
Eshelman, James
Chalford, Ginger
Ertel, Suitbert
Houlding, deborah
Hickey, Isabel M
Goldschneider, gary
Hewitt, wWilliam M
Glover, Toni
probably there are many more too.

O is o or n the luminaries so what ? If it trines the luminaries it does not make it any the more or less potent either, evenq. O has an unusual & unpredictable effect most of the time anyway.

By the way if
if it isUnless you are one how do you know if it is any the less or more potent if there is a malefic planet angular as well ?

What about them?
I guess you didn't get the point. There may well be many with uranus angular etc. but there are likely just as
many with uranus NOT angular, or with some other planet angular. In response to the "I chose some at random
and it worked" comment I replied with an "I chose some at random and it's inconclusive".
Now unless you're going to do an exhaustive statistical analysis simply arbitrarily picking some where it is seen
to work will not tell us anything.
Consider that roughly third of all people will have uranus angular - on the assumption that there being 4 anglesof 12 signs, then a third of the time Uranus will be in one of those angles.
As for the remaining 2/3rds all they have to do is have one of the 5 ptolemaic aspects to either the sun or themoon.
Let's just take the moon.
The moon will be in orb of aspecting any given planet (including uranus) roughly as follows:
Conjunction - roughly all day once a month
Opposition - roughly all day once a month
Square - roughly all day twice a month
Trine - roughly all day twice a month
Sextile - roughly all day twice a month
So therefore Moon in ptolemaic aspect will occur 8 days a month, of 28 days, so that's just about a third of thetime as well.
So a third of people will have uranus angular.
A third of people will have Moon in aspect to Uranus.
And then we can look at the sun.
Guess you weren't getting the point though. Teh logic that URanus rules astrology cos it's found angular (etc)in lots of astrologers charts tells us nothing until we see, at the very least, whether it falls MORE OFTEN in
angular than it doese in other houses, and whether other planets don't similarly fall as often into angularhouses. And even then we're left with the stark knowledge that a third of the whole world will have Uranus

angular AND a third will have it aspecting the moon, let alone just one or the other and let alone aspecting thesun as well.

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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #87 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:23 [UT+1] »I'm getting the point all right Paul. You do not have to go getting all silly & trying to sound like you are very
clever indeed.
It looks to me like you are the one not quite getting the point if you have to be like that.
Posts: 1185
Gender:I doubt very much that you are of superior intelligence to others on this forum, you just want to think you are
by making silly remarks to other people.
Get this point.
It is my opinion & many others that O is very significant in people who are astrologers or who are interested in
astrology.
Others may well have a talent for astrology but may not be aware of it & will also have O either angular or m anangle, or in major aspect to a luminary.
Do you get that point in your head ? very good.

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StarryEyed
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #88 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:25 [UT+1] »Wow dee dow, this has become quite a thread. Thank you to everyone who responded, I've learned even morethan I had originally expected, so I am very grateful to you all!

Posts: 106
Gender:Back to top
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #89 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:34 [UT+1] »PsPaul if you are as clever as you like to sound why are you not debating with someone like Dawkins from oxford,
you know the one. He likes to wipe the floor with people like you & others who believe in astrology.
If you used some of the comments above to him in your defence of astrology he would not have to wipe thePosts: 1185
Gender:floor with you !
you will have saved him the effort.
Go show him how clever your points are.
All you seem to like doing is trying to make other people on this forum look stupid. Some of the people you
constantly butt heads with here are far better astrologers than you. Other people think so too. You just looksad & inadequate if you have to keep criticising other astrologers on here. They have as much to offer as you
do, so don't make the mistake of thinking you are better than them, you are not. Everyone has something tolearn from everyone else, if you think that you do not you are indeed the stupid one who is missing the point &should not be here.
We are ALL here to learn, all of us & that includes you.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #90 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:40 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 12:23 [UT+1]:
I'm getting the point all right Paul. You do not have to go getting all silly & trying to sound like you are very clever indeed.
It looks to me like you are the one not quite getting the point if you have to be like that.
I doubt very much that you are of superior intelligence to others on this forum, you just want to think you are by making silly remarks toother people.
Get this point.
It is my opinion & many others that

O is very significant in people who are astrologers or who are interested in astrology.
O either angular or m an angle, or in major aspect

Others may well have a talent for astrology but may not be aware of it & will also haveto a luminary.
Do you get that point in your head ? very good.

Oh by all means decide that somethign means whatever you want it to. All I'm addressing is the rationale for
WHY you're saying it. You say that Uranus rules astrology because of X, Y and Z and all I'm showing is how
arbitrary that reasoning is. Oh by all means stick to it anyway, I'm not saying that your opinion that uranus isvery significant is wrong headed, but what I am saying is that your reasoning given for that opinion is certainly
not logical. You claim to get the point, but in practice you don't actually seem to.
As for my intelligence, yet another person who prefers to target the poster rather than the post. What claims
have I made for my intelligence? None at all. Once again, argumentum ad hominem = fail. It's enlightening
though that you think actual statistics are 'silly statements'. Whatever. Believe what you want.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #91 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:45 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 12:34 [UT+1]:
Ps
Paul if you are as clever as you like to sound why are you not debating with someone like Dawkins from oxford, you know the one. He
likes to wipe the floor with people like you & others who believe in astrology.
If you used some of the comments above to him in your defence of astrology he would not have to wipe the floor with you !
you will have saved him the effort.
Go show him how clever your points are.

LOL

Arrange an interview with us then.
Oh wait, he doesn't respond to astrologers.
But then I'm quite sure that he woudln't agree with astrology regardless of what I'd say to him or indeed
anyoen else. But that's actually not what's in question was it? It was whether the logic of having an angularuranus suggests that astrological merit of some kind. With that in mind I'm quite confident that if he wereintellectually honest about the matter he would actually agree with me and suggest we check the charts ofbutchers, bakers and candlestick makers as well, and then check the statistical probability of ANYONE having anangular uranus etc and then check whether astrologers have an above average incidence of this placement which is what I was saying above.
i doubt he'd agree with the logic of "I'm entitled to believe what I want and you're not smart anyway" that you
put forward.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #92 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:56 [UT+1] »I personally could not care less what you or Dawkins or anyone else thinks quite frankly.
I know statistics can be made to prove or disprove virtually anything.

Posts: 1185
Gender:In a way it is like many areas of astrology, you can make a justification for any placement or aspect manifesting
potentially in many diverse scenarios or possibilities if you really want to put your mind to it.
Anyway I've had enough of this.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #93 - on: 19.08.2011 at 12:59 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 12:56 [UT+1]:
I personally could not care less what you or Dawkins or anyone else thinks quite frankly.

So why bother mentioning Dawkins then?!
lol

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Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #94 - on: 19.08.2011 at 17:21 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was involved in a major square,
A or B or both.
O was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
The ones I clicked on at random had
involving theI really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

Loulou,It's rare to find an astrologer that doesn't have a strong O and/or planets in k and/or planets in the 11th.
When I say "planets" I mean planets, points or luminaries. I think I've gone through all of those charts onthat link and others a few months ago during my k/H11 thread, and that's what I noticed.
My findings were objected to by the traditional astrologers then just as now. It seems to be a hot topic thesedays in any thread when correllating the house to its sign and its ruler. Interesting, since I've never seen
debates about that subject before on this site until a few months ago.
In another thread an example was given of c planets in H6, f's natural house, where I have a stellium of cplanets. That poster relegated my H6 to small animals, daily routine and something that didn't even makesense, and some applauded him. Well, I found that description absolutely ridiculous, but I'm not about towaste my time getting into a debate over something as basic as that.
Studying charts is a good way to learn.

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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #95 - on: 19.08.2011 at 17:23 [UT+1] »And another thing,so what if other planets or a luminary is in a angular house or within 5 degrees of an angle, there could be 2 or
3 others there with O but so what, how does that lessen the influence of O ??
Posts: 1185
Gender:You know, O is a very unpredictable energy, very dynamic at times. It combines the energies of C, E & G
mabe even F at times too, yet 'he' is not predictable in the sense that they might be. He combines theirenergies but also has his own id very separate from them.
Some call him the Occultist. His energy can seem to have an intuitive or even mystical slant, but he isessentially a scientist. A scientist of the future & modern C or G influenced scientists cannot measure, or fit
him into neat & tidy categories. Tough.
He probably doesn't "do" conforming to neat tidy statistics that C likes everything to conform to, only if hefeels like it. He can be perverse, & eccentric & he lives in a very different plane to this one we all do. Something
like I, but a very different energy to I nonetheless.
If people cannot see his influence in astrology that is their problem, not his.
His influence can at times be brilliant. If those who are not in tune with him on any plane can't get over it it's
their / your loss not those of us who regularly can & do tune into him & channel him.
One day you will wake up & that is what O likes to do, wake people up to themselves & others & the Future.
One day it will be proven that O is the planet of astrology but until then do the Uranians care a fig, not at all.
I doubt if the planet O does either.
You go & stay in the nice, safe orbits of C & G, & leave O to those of us who truly Know stuff.
We might not articulate it always in the way others like it to be explained, but I think that Uranian people willusually be spot on. I can tell & see them a mile off, whether the A is k or not , there does not have to be any

k or 11th house activity at all, & I will know, oh lordy lord, here comes another O running parallel with myorbit, what fun this is likely to be for everyone concerned, it is just the way.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #96 - on: 19.08.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 17:23 [UT+1]:
You go & stay in the nice, safe orbits of

C & G, & leave O to those of us who truly Know stuff.

LOL

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loulouaz

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #97 - on: 19.08.2011 at 17:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 19.08.2011 at 17:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was involved in a
A or B or both.

The ones I clicked on at random had
major square, involving theO was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
Posts: 1185
Gender:I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

Loulou,Ok

It's rare to find an astrologer that doesn't have a strong
and/or planets in
and/or planets in the 11th. When I say "planets" I meanplanets, points or luminaries. I think I've gone through all of those charts on that link and others a few months ago during my/H11kthread, and that's what I noticed.
My findings were objected to by the traditional astrologers then just as now. It seems to be a hot topic these days in any thread whencorrellating the house to its sign and its ruler. Interesting, since I've never seen debates about that subject before on this site until a few
months ago.
In another thread an example was given ofc planets in H6, f's natural house, where I have a stellium of c planets. That poster

relegated my H6 to small animals, daily routine and something that didn't even make sense, and some applauded him. Well, I found that
description absolutely ridiculous, but I'm not about to waste my time getting into a debate over something as basic as that.
Studying charts is a good way to learn. With my H6, research is one of my many loves.

yeah, the traditionalists think that because not every single astrologer has O angular or on it's own in aangular house etc etc that it is a null hypothesis, O is nothing to do with astrology & is not especiallysignificant in astrologers charts.
Well if they understood the energy of O it would not be a problem for them. So what if he isn't in every single
astrologers angular houses, so what if he is there but is sharing the place.
'He' does not have to prove anything to them or the other planets & luminaries.
O does what it wants, he is not constrained by the same boundaries as other planets he does not have toconform to expected standards or ways of articulating knowledge why should he ? if the traditionalists don't
like it they can lump it
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #98 - on: 19.08.2011 at 17:48 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 17:23 [UT+1]:
You go & stay in the nice, safe orbits of

C & G, & leave O to those of us who truly Know stuff.

Posts: 1185
Gender:LOL

I just knew you were going to quote that bit, I really did, You are very predictable
either that, or I am
psychic. I was laughing to myself about it knowing you would pick up on that & nothing else. I just knew.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #99 - on: 19.08.2011 at 18:31 [UT+1] »This business of the Ninth House being astrology because astrology is a study is exceedingly wobbly. I might
get a masters degree in family counseling making family counseling a Ninth House matter. I might get adoctorate in group dynamics making groups a Ninth House matter. I might get a masters degree on financemaking money a Ninth House matter.
Clearly anything can be studied. People who seem addicted to watching the horoscope page in Cosmopolitan
magazine, who make the rounds to their favorite astrology sites and end the day with half a dozen tarot
readings are not motivated in this by the Ninth House. I've seen chart after chart of this kind of person, and I
know the houses you'll see.
There are people who are deeply involved with astrology along with many other metaphysical matters, and they
have a Pluto, Eighth, Scorpio bent. The example I show here is Shirley MacClaine.
That is not a typical astrologer's emphasis, but it is an occult emphasis, and it counts for some charts. It
depends on how astrology fits in the picture.
I agree with Michelle that Uranus, Aquarius and 11th are more likely, but you will often see 8th in cases just likethis.

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astro_2atw_01_shirley_maclaine.63277.13206.gif(attachment deleted)
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Michelle
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #100 - on: 19.08.2011 at 19:27 [UT+1] »Steven, I agree about the 8th. Having AmO in the 8th gives her a broader scope than only astrology, which
for her includes aliens and life after death, etc.
NNode in k and SNode in H11 adds to it. Her interests have put her on the right path. She's an interesting
person. She's been ahead of her time in many ways.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #101 - on: 19.08.2011 at 20:21 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Michelle on 19.08.2011 at 17:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:
The ones I clicked on at random had

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was
A or B or both.

involved in a major square, involving theO was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

Loulou,It's rare to find an astrologer that doesn't have a strong

O and/or planets in k and/or planets in the 11th. When I say"planets" I mean planets, points or luminaries. I think I've gone through all of those charts on that link and others a few
months ago during my

k/H11 thread, and that's what I noticed.

My findings were objected to by the traditional astrologers then just as now. It seems to be a hot topic these days in any
thread when correllating the house to its sign and its ruler. Interesting, since I've never seen debates about that subject
before on this site until a few months ago.
In another thread an example was given ofc planets in H6, f's natural house, where I have a stellium of c planets.

That poster relegated my H6 to small animals, daily routine and something that didn't even make sense, and someapplauded him. Well, I found that description absolutely ridiculous, but I'm not about to waste my time getting into a
debate over something as basic as that.
Studying charts is a good way to learn. With my H6, research is one of my many loves.

yeah, the traditionalists think that because not every single astrologer has

O angular or on it's

own in a angular house etc etc that it is a null hypothesis, O is nothing to do with astrology & is not especiallysignificant in astrologers charts.

O it would not be a problem for them. So what if he isn't in every single
astrologers angular houses, so what if he is there but is sharing the place.
Well if they understood the energy of'He' does not have to prove anything to them or the other planets & luminaries.

O does what it wants, he is not constrained by the same boundaries as other planets he does
not have to conform to expected standards or ways of articulating knowledge why should he ? if
the traditionalists don't like it they can lump it

So we have those who say that Uranus appears prominently in the charts of astrologers. Here we havesomeone who says 'So what?' if Uranus doesn't appear prominently in the chart of an astrologer. After all,Uranus doesn't have to conform to expectations.
The case is settled: Uranus does and doesn't appear in the charts of astrologers. Therefore, Uranus rules
astrology.

Meanwhile, we are now adding the 11th house to the 8th and the 12th as the place for astrology (which, ofcourse, was inevitable because of the smear-it-all-together 11th house/Aquarius/Uranus idea).

Yep, quality thought around here. Well, you folks just go for it.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #102 - on: 19.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1] »could you confirm your idea of mercury being the ruler, zappo, to me it does make sense but some reasoning
behind this would be a bonus.

Posts: 3624

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #103 - on: 19.08.2011 at 20:57 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 10:00 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 18.08.2011 at 22:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 18.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from website on 18.08.2011 at 02:55 [UT+1]:
I have Uranus in the 9th, conjunct the Midheaven and I gravitated toward
astrology with no prompting from anyone during my teenage years.
I think Uranus rules astrology.

I have nothing conjunct my MC and so, by this logic, having also gravitated toward
astrology with no prompting from anyone during my teenage years, I conclude that
nothing rules astrology.

That's rad, only I wasn't saying that everyone interested in astrology will definitely have Uranus
in the 9th and/or conjunct the Midheaven, in the first place. *shrug*

Which is the exact point I'm making. It seemed as though a rationale for using Uranus to rule astrology was
the idea that you have it in the 9th etc. I'm demonstrating how specious that reasoning is.

Uh huh.
I wasn't saying the opposite to begin with though.
And....you again!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

Which is why I hadn't replied to you, I had repleid to someone else.
As for the youtube link, when we resort to personal attacks we've clearly failed

Omfg...*looks at you like you have two heads*
No no I'm website I just changed my name dude keep up.
And...no one sends people links to Dramatic Chipmunk as a personal attack, are you serious?! *headdesk* Stopbeing so defensive and paranoid. I'm probably one of the few people that's in your corner here, despite
absolutely not agreeing with you on this particular subject.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #104 - on: 19.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 19.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1]:
could you confirm your idea of mercury being the ruler, zappo, to me it does make sense but some reasoning behind this would be abonus.

Posts: 1210
Gender:Mercury signifies calculations, mathematics, and using those things for prophesy and telling the future.
Sometime Saturn is listed as a co-significator since Saturn signifies long and deep study and wisdom - things
requiring being solitary. However, Saturn is rarely used in delineations. Usually just Mercury.
If you think about the basic traditional natures of the other planets, the Moon signifies mothers, the Sun kings
reputation, and important people, Jupiter signifies priests, magnanimous people, Venus signifies women andlove, and Mars signifies soldiers and war. You could say Jupiter, but Jupiter tends to be more a priestly figure (inthe ideal sense). Mercury fits most easily.

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #105 - on: 19.08.2011 at 21:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 19.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 19.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1]:
could you confirm your idea of mercury being the ruler, zappo, to me it does make sense but some reasoning behind thiswould be a bonus.

Mercury signifies calculations, mathematics, and using those things for prophesy and telling the future. Sometime Saturn is listed as a cosignificator since Saturn signifies long and deep study and wisdom - things requiring being solitary. However, Saturn is rarely used indelineations. Usually just Mercury.
If you think about the basic traditional natures of the other planets, the Moon signifies mothers, the Sun kings reputation, and important
people, Jupiter signifies priests, magnanimous people, Venus signifies women and love, and Mars signifies soldiers and war. You could say
Jupiter, but Jupiter tends to be more a priestly figure (in the ideal sense). Mercury fits most easily.

....Isn't Uranus just the higher version of Mercury, anyway?
At any rate this really doesn't affect me either way because I have both Uranus and Mercury conjunct an angle.
Either way it appears I'm astrologically-inclined.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #106 - on: 19.08.2011 at 21:54 [UT+1] »thanks enlil, it becomes clear that these matters are not.
i would like to throw this into the soup of deliberation as i find it interesting to note that the Egyptians had
other ideas on the matter. ive even heard someone mention they believed Venus to be warrior like.
Thoth was often considered to be the heart—which, according to the ancient Egyptians, is the seat ofintelligence or the mind—and tongue of the sun god Ra, as well as the means by which Ra's will was translatedPosts: 3624

into speech.[5] He was also related to the Logos of Plato[5] and the mind of God[6] (see The All). He played
many vital and prominent roles in Egyptian mythology, such as maintaining the universe, and being one of thetwo deities (the other being Ma'at, who was also his wife) who stood on either side of Ra's boat.[7] In the later
history of ancient Egypt, Thoth became heavily associated with the arbitration of godly disputes,[8] the arts ofmagic, the system of writing, the development of science,[9] and the judgment of the dead.[10]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth
one can see that within this passage, it is the moon that is the ruler of astrology. everybody confused as i amyet?
but there is a similarity between egyptian and western astrology, the moon was said to be the ruler of the third
house, which would tie in with mercury being the same in western astrology.
astrology is ruled by the 3rd house?

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Jogi64

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #107 - on: 19.08.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1] »Hi Dren,
Quote:....Isn't Uranus just the higher version of Mercury, anyway?

This is said so. And commonly it is labeled as intuition. But here are some interesting statements i found about
intuition on wikipedia:

Posts: 1042
Gender:Quote:
In more-recent psychology, intuition can encompass the ability to know valid solutions to problems and decision making. For example, therecognition primed decision (RPD) model explains how people can make relatively fast decisions without having to compare options. Gary
Klein found that under time pressure, high stakes, and changing parameters, experts used their base of experience to identify similar
situations and intuitively choose feasible solutions. Thus, the RPD model is a blend of intuition and analysis. The intuition is thepattern-matching process that quickly suggests feasible courses of action. The analysis is the mental simulation, a conscious and deliberate
review of the courses of action.[14]The reliability of one's intuition depends greatly on past knowledge and occurrences in a specific area. For example, someone who
has had more experiences with children will tend to have a better instinct or intuition about what they should do in certain situations withthem. This is not to say that one with a great amount of experience is always going to have an accurate intuition (becausesome can be biased); however, the chances of it being more reliable are definitely amplified.[16]Sofar I can see analysis and gaining knowledge (C) seems to be crucial anyway. And even then intuition isquite unreliable.
IMO practicing astrology and counselling clients would prove to be quite insecure, unreliable, unsteady anduncontrollable if I only had to rely on H. But as I stated before, uranian intuition can be a useful help for an
astrologer (as for nearly every field) - I just don't have deliberate access to it and I can't consciously control it.
Which I consider to be an extremely weak basis for such a complex field like astrology.
Jogi
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gimelresh
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #108 - on: 19.08.2011 at 22:03 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 19.08.2011 at 21:54 [UT+1]:
thanks enlil, it becomes clear that these matters are not.
i would like to throw this into the soup of deliberation as i find it interesting to note that the Egyptians had other ideas on the matter. iveeven heard someone mention they believed Venus to be warrior like.

Posts: 47
Gender:Thoth was often considered to be the heart—which, according to the ancient Egyptians, is the seat of intelligence or the mind—and tongueof the sun god Ra, as well as the means by which Ra's will was translated into speech.[5] He was also related to the Logos of Plato[5]and the mind of God[6] (see The All). He played many vital and prominent roles in Egyptian mythology, such as maintaining the universe,and being one of the two deities (the other being Ma'at, who was also his wife) who stood on either side of Ra's boat.[7] In the later
history of ancient Egypt, Thoth became heavily associated with the arbitration of godly disputes,[8] the arts of magic, the system ofwriting, the development of science,[9] and the judgment of the dead.[10]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth
one can see that within this passage, it is the moon that is the ruler of astrology. everybody confused as i am yet?

Hello,To be honest I'm not seeing how you get to that conclusion, though I come with the bias that mythology might
be interesting and inspirational to astrology, it doesn't form the basis of its thought, at least in the pre-modern
periods.
Gabe
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #109 - on: 19.08.2011 at 22:28 [UT+1] »Quote from gimelresh on 19.08.2011 at 22:03 [UT+1]:
To be honest I'm not seeing how you get to that conclusion, though I come with the bias that mythology might be interesting andinspirational to astrology, it doesn't form the basis of its thought, at least in the pre-modern periods.

related to the Logos, the arts of magic, the system of writing, the development of science

Posts: 3624

biased or not, these words depict very similar notings as would be describing mercury and its manifestations.
the basis of ruling or principles are not a given known and even within the Greek structure also hidden from thegeneral public at large, but written about in mythological prose.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #110 - on: 19.08.2011 at 22:48 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 17:39 [UT+1]:

O angular or on it's own in a angular house etc etc that it is a
O is nothing to do with astrology & is not especially significant in astrologers charts.

yeah, the traditionalists think that because not every single astrologer has
null hypothesis,

I'm presuming you're literate, however it stretches my imagination to think of how you pulled that rabbit outof the hat of what I actually said which was that before we can make any conclusions we must examine theevidence and pay attention to how often the hypothesis fails as well as succeeds. I never said anything about
EVERY astrologer having to conform to the hypothesis, I said MORE astrologers should conform than notconform and that this conforming must be above what would be considered statistically the norm.
A bit different to what you're saying here. IN amongst all this was some random stuff about you wanting me totalk to Professor Dawkins.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #111 - on: 19.08.2011 at 22:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 19.08.2011 at 21:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 19.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 19.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1]:
could you confirm your idea of mercury being the ruler, zappo, to me it does make sense but somereasoning behind this would be a bonus.

Mercury signifies calculations, mathematics, and using those things for prophesy and telling the future. Sometime Saturn islisted as a co-significator since Saturn signifies long and deep study and wisdom - things requiring being solitary. However,
Saturn is rarely used in delineations. Usually just Mercury.
If you think about the basic traditional natures of the other planets, the Moon signifies mothers, the Sun kings reputation,and important people, Jupiter signifies priests, magnanimous people, Venus signifies women and love, and Mars signifies
soldiers and war. You could say Jupiter, but Jupiter tends to be more a priestly figure (in the ideal sense). Mercury fits
most easily.

....Isn't Uranus just the higher version of Mercury, anyway?
At any rate this really doesn't affect me either way because I have both Uranus and Mercury conjunct an angle. Either way it appears I'm
astrologically-inclined.

Some do say that. Others say that Uranus is the higher vibration of the Sun, and Neptune the higher vibrationof the Moon. If you want to go along with this 'higher vibration' idea then actually the Sun and Moon make a
lot more sense and perhaps Pluto could be attributed with Mercury - both rule transformation etc.
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Aquamaid
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #112 - on: 19.08.2011 at 23:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 19.08.2011 at 17:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:

O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or B or it was involved in a
A or B or both.

The ones I clicked on at random had
major square, involving theO was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
Posts: 3999
Gender:I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

Loulou,It's rare to find an astrologer that doesn't have a strong O and/or planets in k and/or planets in
the 11th. When I say "planets" I mean planets, points or luminaries. I think I've gone through all of those charts on that link andothers a few months ago during my

k/H11 thread, and that's what I noticed.

My findings were objected to by the traditional astrologers then just as now. It seems to be a hot topic these days in any thread whencorrellating the house to its sign and its ruler. Interesting, since I've never seen debates about that subject before on this site until a few
months ago.
In another thread an example was given ofc planets in H6, f's natural house, where I have a stellium of c planets. That poster

relegated my H6 to small animals, daily routine and something that didn't even make sense, and some applauded him. Well, I found that
description absolutely ridiculous, but I'm not about to waste my time getting into a debate over something as basic as that.
Studying charts is a good way to learn.

Michelle, a huber astrologer taught me that O ruled astrology and with my own O tightly m my MC it madesense to me too. add to that a Ak and with EnO too it really does feel right that this represents astrology in
my chart.
In huber astrology O represents creativity, invention and new systems. astrology is a system and is constantly
recreating itself in new forms.
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ZappoII

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #113 - on: 19.08.2011 at 23:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 19.08.2011 at 17:21 [UT+1]:. . .

It's rare to find an astrologer that doesn't have a strong O and/or planets in k and/or planets in
the 11th. When I say "planets" I mean planets, points or luminaries. I think I've gone through all of those charts on that link andothers a few months ago during my

k/H11 thread, and that's what I noticed.

My findings were objected to by the traditional astrologers then just as now. It seems to be a hot topic
these days in any thread when correllating the house to its sign and its ruler. Interesting, since I've never seen debates about that subject
before on this site until a few months ago.
. . .

For one thing, the door is wide open with "a strong O ". There are plenty of situations that many would say
make Uranus strong in a chart, such as Jupiter trine Uranus in a chart where Jupiter may not be all thatprominent in the qualities, talents, and interests of the person. So we take that alleged strong (and influential)
Uranus, and add planets in Aquarius. It's getting easier. Now we consider any 11th house planets and - WOW!
an astrologer!!!
Take all sorts of people from all walks of life and with most of them you will find a strong Uranus, or planetsin Aquarius, or planets in the 11th house. I promise.
What tradition-oriented astrologers object to is the sloppiness of it.
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beyond the stars
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #114 - on: 20.08.2011 at 01:06 [UT+1] »... and anyway, an overall 'Aquarian-style' interest in a subject (which, come on, we know is typical of Aquariustype people; there's an overall interest in all kinds of subjects for the 'typical' Aquarian) doesn't make you goodat something. Someone interested in astrology probably has the basics, including maybe, most likely,
something posited in the 11th or Aquarius or conjunct O. It's what they do with their basic interest that
determines whether or not they become a 'good' astrologer, or any kind of astrologer, for that matter, good or
bad or some hybridization in-between.

Posts: 1005

I know an Aquarius who was very good at the practice of astrology who has put away his toys and does not
pursue it anymore, having lost interest; I know someone with a stellium in c in the 11th house who has aninterest in astrology, just like he has an interest in many subjects he has no need to pursue and become
proficient at. He's my lawyer, actually.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #115 - on: 20.08.2011 at 01:23 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 22:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 19.08.2011 at 21:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 19.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 19.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1]:
could you confirm your idea of mercury being the ruler, zappo, to me it does make sense but
some reasoning behind this would be a bonus.

Mercury signifies calculations, mathematics, and using those things for prophesy and telling the future.
Sometime Saturn is listed as a co-significator since Saturn signifies long and deep study and wisdom things requiring being solitary. However, Saturn is rarely used in delineations. Usually just Mercury.
If you think about the basic traditional natures of the other planets, the Moon signifies mothers, the Sunkings reputation, and important people, Jupiter signifies priests, magnanimous people, Venus signifies
women and love, and Mars signifies soldiers and war. You could say Jupiter, but Jupiter tends to be more apriestly figure (in the ideal sense). Mercury fits most easily.

....Isn't Uranus just the higher version of Mercury, anyway?
At any rate this really doesn't affect me either way because I have both Uranus and Mercury conjunct an angle. Either way
it appears I'm astrologically-inclined.

Some do say that. Others say that Uranus is the higher vibration of the Sun, and Neptune the higher vibration of the Moon. If you want togo along with this 'higher vibration' idea then actually the Sun and Moon make a lot more sense and perhaps Pluto could be attributed with
Mercury - both rule transformation etc.

I have the Sun in an angular house, Pluto conjunct a luminary and quintile Mercury. Any way you slice it I havethis astrology thing all locked up.
*hops on my toes and moonwalks around you like Michael Jackson*
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Michelle
Ex Member« Reply #116 - on: 20.08.2011 at 03:44 [UT+1] »Quote from Angi Denton on 19.08.2011 at 23:20 [UT+1]:

O ruled astrology and with my own O tightly m my MC it made sense to me too. add to that
Ak and with EnO too it really does feel right that this represents astrology in my chart.
In huber astrology O represents creativity, invention and new systems. astrology is a system and is constantly recreating itself in newMichelle, a huber astrologer taught me thataforms.

Angi,
Your thread on the Huber method has been so popular.
Thanks for sharing this with everyone.
Horizont,
Zappo used a partial quote of mine, out of context.
We were referring to the astrologers on the AstroDatabank link, which I think were full-time professional
astrologers and astrology authors going from way back in time to the present. There are 2,400 charts listed.
The link is below.
I also know a few Aquarians who aren't interested in astrology.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Vocation_:_Occult_Fields_:_Astrolog er
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loulouaz

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #117 - on: 20.08.2011 at 09:35 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 19.08.2011 at 22:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 17:39 [UT+1]:

O angular or on it's own in a angular house etc
O is nothing to do with astrology & is not especially significant in astrologers charts.

yeah, the traditionalists think that because not every single astrologer has
etc that it is a null hypothesis,

Posts: 1185
Gender:I'm presuming you're literate, however it stretches my imagination to think of how you pulled that rabbit out of the hat of what I actually
said which was that before we can make any conclusions we must examine the evidence and pay attention to how often the hypothesis
fails as well as succeeds. I never said anything about EVERY astrologer having to conform to the hypothesis, I said MORE astrologers
should conform than not conform and that this conforming must be above what would be considered statistically the norm.
A bit different to what you're saying here. IN amongst all this was some random stuff about you wanting me to talk to Professor Dawkins.

It's not anyones fault but your own.
You don't understand the influences of the 3 outers esp O it seems.
It's funny that you keep on using outdated methods of quantifying & measuring influences.

C & G are outdated as far as O is concerned.
O will not be constrained by their narrow means of trying to understand the world. They are dense. Like youseem to be. Like lots of traditionalists seem to be.
Let us all look C, E & G in your chart/s.
Post your chart Paul, & ZappoII let us see what O is doing in your chart/s I bet it is very under the dense
influence of G.

C, E & G are very dense compared to O, just like the B, D & F are dense compared to I.
The synthesis of the energies or elements the planets represent can be very difficult to decipher & measure.
Just because you are dense in the saturnian / mercurial sense that doesn't mean they are not ultimately
measurable. We need finer means of doing so that's all.
O is sometimes called the Occultist, now the meaning of that word is hidden or unseen. O can be a very
tangible even transparent energy a lot of the time, but I think also, it can be elusive too, not like the way weassociate elusive with neptunian energy in a willo' the wisp or mysterious way, but another sort of elusive
quality, just for the perversity of it if you like. A willful defiance perhaps. Because O will not conform & iseccentric. Rebellious too. But that does not mean it is not there. Often quite the contrary in fact. It challenges
you to open your eyes..
You know there are many realities that cannot be measured, weighed or quantified by modern science, but that
does not mean they are non existent, ask some physicists.
Try to get out of your materialistic mindset, & you will see the influences of #Ur.
Take off your glasses & mabe you will see.
The reference to dawkins was tongue in cheek, He is very dense too when it comes to anything intangible. Thatis, intangible to him. At least you give some credit to Astrology, even if limited in scope.
Post your chart if you like, & ZappoII as well. lets see what the 3 outers are doing in you. Probably not much, ifanything even in major aspect I think they are still under the leaden weight of G. The dense weight of G
combined with the limited perception of C.
Your problem. Deal with it

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loulouaz
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #118 - on: 20.08.2011 at 09:38 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 19.08.2011 at 20:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 19.08.2011 at 17:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Michelle on 19.08.2011 at 17:21 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 18.08.2011 at 23:05 [UT+1]:

Posts: 1185
Gender:O in an angular house or O was in opposition to the A or
B or it was involved in a major square, involving the A or B or both.
O was not necessarily m the angles though, even if it was in 1st 4th 7th or 10th house.
The ones I clicked on at random had

I really did look at random.
It seems that if it isn't in an angular house it makes strong aspects to personal planets.

Loulou,It's rare to find an astrologer that doesn't have a strong

O and/or planets in k and/or planets in the 11th.

When I say "planets" I mean planets, points or luminaries. I think I've gone through all of those charts onthat link and others a few months ago during my

k/H11 thread, and that's what I noticed.

My findings were objected to by the traditional astrologers then just as now. It seems to be a hot topic thesedays in any thread when correllating the house to its sign and its ruler. Interesting, since I've never seen
debates about that subject before on this site until a few months ago.

c planets in H6, f's natural house, where I have a stellium ofc planets. That poster relegated my H6 to small animals, daily routine and something that didn't even
In another thread an example was given of

make sense, and some applauded him. Well, I found that description absolutely ridiculous, but I'm not about
to waste my time getting into a debate over something as basic as that.
Studying charts is a good way to learn. With my H6, research is one of my many loves.

yeah, the traditionalists think that because not every single astrologer has

O angular oron it's own in a angular house etc etc that it is a null hypothesis, O is nothing to do withastrology & is not especially significant in astrologers charts.
Well if they understood the energy of

O it would not be a problem for them. So what if he isn't in every

single astrologers angular houses, so what if he is there but is sharing the place.
'He' does not have to prove anything to them or the other planets & luminaries.

O does what it wants, he is not constrained by the same boundaries as other planets
he does not have to conform to expected standards or ways of articulating knowledge
why should he ? if the traditionalists don't like it they can lump it

So we have those who say that Uranus appears prominently in the charts of astrologers. Here we have someone who says 'So what?' if
Uranus doesn't appear prominently in the chart of an astrologer. After all, Uranus doesn't have to conform to expectations.
The case is settled: Uranus does and doesn't appear in the charts of astrologers. Therefore, Uranus rules astrology.

Meanwhile, we are now adding the 11th house to the 8th and the 12th as the place for astrology (which, of course, was inevitable becauseof the smear-it-all-together 11th house/Aquarius/Uranus idea).

Yep, quality thought around here. Well, you folks just go for it.

ZappoII you are funny, that made me laughyou should be a comedian, you missed your calling in life.

But you are still wrong.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #119 - on: 20.08.2011 at 10:38 [UT+1] »Quote:
It's not anyones fault but your own.
You don't understand the influences of the 3 outers esp it seems.
It's funny that you keep on using outdated methods of quantifying & measuring influences.

Lol yes, it's probably my fault you invented a straw man argument and put it in my mouth.
As for the outers I know all a out them, it's a common mistake to think that because someone disagrees withyou that their knowledge or understanding is inferior. Of course it isn't always the case. I know all about theouters, I just disagree that one if them rules astrology.
Quote:
Post your chart Paul, & ZappoII

Thanks for the offer, but no thanks. Don't throw pearls before swine and all that. If someone well educated in
the subject wanted to see my chart I'd let them. Unfortunately, in my opinion, that excludes you. Not personal,
if it makes you feel better I've only shown my chart to one other on this forum.
Quote:
I bet it is very under the dense influence of Saturn

Yeah? How much do you bet? Transfer the funds to a third part account and we'll see.
As for density, Uranus is much slower moving, so, according to astrological logic, is more dense than Saturn.
Quote:
Uranus is sometimes called the Occultist

That would be Pluto
Quote:
can be a very tangible even transparent energy a lot of the time

Are you a native English speaker? Think something got lost in translation there. What's an opaque energy? In
what ways is it both tangible and transparent and how is that different to other planets?
Quote:You know there are many realities that cannot be measured, weighed or quantified by modern science, but that does not mean they are
non existent, ask some physicists.

Are my actual points so complex or difficult to assimilate that you need to prop yourself up with more straw
man arguments? Nobody said otherwise to the above, you're inventing points to counter argue. Why not stickto the ones others have offered? Are the only points you can debate against your own invention?

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #120 - on: 20.08.2011 at 10:43 [UT+1] »Quote:
ZappoII you are funny, that made me laughTrue! He certainly made a laughing stock of your points. He's a true comedian who can have even a clown belaughed at and for the clown to laugh too in ignorance.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #121 - on: 20.08.2011 at 11:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 19.08.2011 at 21:57 [UT+1]:
Hi Dren,
Quote:....Isn't Uranus just the higher version of Mercury, anyway?
This is said so. And commonly it is labeled as intuition. But here are some interesting statements i found about intuition on wikipedia:
Quote:
In more-recent psychology, intuition can encompass the ability to know valid solutions to problems and decision making.
For example, the recognition primed decision (RPD) model explains how people can make relatively fast decisions without
having to compare options. Gary Klein found that under time pressure, high stakes, and changing parameters, experts usedtheir base of experience to identify similar situations and intuitively choose feasible solutions. Thus, the RPD model is a
blend of intuition and analysis. The intuition is the pattern-matching process that quickly suggests feasible courses ofaction. The analysis is the mental simulation, a conscious and deliberate review of the courses of action.[14]The reliability of one's intuition depends greatly on past knowledge and occurrences in a specific area. For example,
someone who has had more experiences with children will tend to have a better instinct or intuition about what they should
do in certain situations with them. This is not to say that one with a great amount of experience is always going tohave an accurate intuition (because some can be biased); however, the chances of it being more reliable are definitely
amplified.[16]Sofar I can see analysis and gaining knowledge (C) seems to be crucial anyway. And even then intuition is quite unreliable.

IMO practicing astrology and counselling clients would prove to be quite insecure, unreliable, unsteady and uncontrollable if I only had torely on

H. But as I stated before, uranian intuition can be a useful help for an astrologer (as for nearly every field) - I just don't havedeliberate access to it and I can't consciously control it. Which I consider to be an extremely weak basis for such a complex field likeastrology.
Jogi

I just saw this a minute ago, it wasn't that I was ignoring your post.
Oh, absolutely, intuition is no good without a lot of common sense and a strong base, everybody knows thatand I wasn't disputing it. What I am saying is that I do believe Uranus rules astrology as well as the 'sudden
flash of intuition' but yeah you need grounding (Saturn) to be able to sift through things and separate whats
real and valid from the garbage.
I've been told I actually have a pretty strong Saturn, by sign, house placement and aspect as well so this is thepart where I ... :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_3v-_p3ESo

Honestly, this thread needs the humor it's getting a little awkward in here.
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IP LoggedJogi64

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #122 - on: 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1] »Hi Dren,
Quote:
I just saw this a minute ago, it wasn't that I was ignoring your post.

No problem at all - don't worry

Posts: 1042
Gender:.

Besides many other modern astrology experts and teachers (e.g. L. Greene, Joanne Wickenburg), Stephen
Arroyo claims in his book "Astrology, Karma & Transformation" that the outer planets are absolutely out of ourconscious control. He says that the energies of the outers are not at all steerable.
Now this is what happens when someone is going to study astrology. First of all he/she is interested and curious(C) about this subject. He/she consciously decides (C) to engage with it. Then reads books (C) , calculates
charts (C) , learns the vocabulary (C), memorizes (C/B) astrological elements and constellations, analyses(C) signs and symbols, combines (C) and interprets (C) them - and all of this is done on a conscious level.
I don't know of any beginner who starts learning astrology by just sitting in front of a chart and waiting for
insights (H) and intuitive flashes (H). This is, IMO, by no means the common way to start astrology (or any
other science).
Even a professional astrologer starts with the analysis of the chart symbols and with their logical interpretation- but here, if H is somewhat prominent in his/her chart and connected to personal factors, he/she is able totake advantage of the intuitive energy of H that may very well enhance his/her capabilities as an astrologer andcounsellor.
An astrologer who tries to relate totally on H would be absolutely unreliable, erratic and even if he/she would
come to right conclusions he/she normally would not be able to explain the rationale behind them, which is anormal feature of intuition - he/she would just 'know'. And as is proved through psychological studies, eventhis 'knowledge' is always unreliable and he/she could be totally wrong.

When starting with astrology I also learned that H rules astrology and astrologers. But even before having theslightest idea of traditional astrology and what it has to say, I felt that there clearly is something wrong with H
ruling astrology. I never neglected that H can help astrologers in practicing their subject - and I still don't
neglect it today.
As so often stated by modern experts: the outer planets are transpersonal and out of our conscious control(which does not mean that they cannot have any impact on our lifes). If H rules/controls astrology, thenastrology is out of control and a real arbitrary endeavor.
Jogi
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Yukionna

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #123 - on: 20.08.2011 at 13:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:
I don't know of any beginner who starts learning astrology by just sitting in front of a chart and waiting for insights (flashes (H) and intuitiveH).

Well, no harm in trying. Must be very relaxing at least

Posts: 1690
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #124 - on: 20.08.2011 at 13:54 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:
the outer planets are absolutely out of our conscious control.

interesting statement. consciousness is present but free will not.
Quote from Yukionna on 20.08.2011 at 13:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:

Posts: 3624

I don't know of any beginner who starts learning astrology by just sitting in front of a chart and waiting for insights (and intuitive flashes (

H)

H).

Well, no harm in trying. Must be very relaxing at least

i would believe that I has a play in this here and it is the work of O to create a thought process from thatwhich is being sensed.
the process would need further development through C by using G.

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Jogi64

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #125 - on: 20.08.2011 at 14:02 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 20.08.2011 at 13:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:
the outer planets are absolutely out of our conscious control.

interesting statement. consciousness is present but free will not.

I only rendered what Arroyo says. You may ask him about free will.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #126 - on: 20.08.2011 at 14:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 14:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 20.08.2011 at 13:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:
the outer planets are absolutely out of our conscious control.

interesting statement. consciousness is present but free will not.
I only rendered what Arroyo says. You may ask him about free will.

Posts: 3624

i think that lack of conscious control implies lack of choice and hence the lack of free will.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #127 - on: 20.08.2011 at 16:09 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 20.08.2011 at 10:43 [UT+1]:
Quote:
ZappoII you are funny, that made me laughPosts: 1185
Gender:True! He certainly made a laughing stock of your points. He's a true comedian who can have even a clown be laughed at and for the clown
to laugh too in ignorance.

You are obviously one very, very sad person paul. It is you who is ignorant you just can not see it.
You are obviously a nasty person as well, when exposed for the idiot that you are.
Dense & ignorant. Well educated, you ? !!! you do not sound it. You sound like a jumped up nasty attention
seeking adolescent.
Go spread your poison somewhere else. You obviously have major issues to deal with if you have to resort tobeing so pathetic when you can't justify an argument except with your limited, dense mind.

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loulouaz
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #128 - on: 20.08.2011 at 16:27 [UT+1] »according to astrological logic, because O is furthur away than G it would be more dense.
That is idiot talk for you ! you quite obviously know nothing about what O represents.

Posts: 1185
Gender:showing your chart on this forum would be like throwing pearls to swine !!! you really are a jumped up little
twerp aren't you. Why don't you get off this forum if your opinion of other members is so low ? can't you see
what you sound like ?
I suppose your chart is very boring & all to easy to interpret, even by an amateur like yourself. I bet even G inyour chart gets bored with your narrow minded, ignorant outlook.

J is not the Occultist.
Transparent as in a open or direct energy. As in contrast to subtle or insidious. Not meant as in a opaque sense.
Look at the context or at least try to.
Dear oh dear you are stupid aren't you. Let's hope no one is stupid or naive enough to ask you to do theircharts for them.
If all you can do is take what people say out of context you are probably worse than dense.
Like I said before go back to your usual orbits. The unfamiliar is something you obviously can not cope withultimately, it brings out hostility in you. That shows a limited mind set & that is what you represent paul, alimited mind set.
I will not read or bother to reply to any more of your posts. They are predictable & boring & not in the least
inspiring.
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Matrika Matters

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #129 - on: 20.08.2011 at 18:01 [UT+1] »Bodhichitta is a Sanskrit word that means “noble or awakened heart.” Just as butter is inherent in milk and oil isinherent in a sesame seed, the soft spot of bodhichitta is inherent in you and me. It is equated, in part, with
our ability to love. No matter how committed we are to unkindness, selfishness, or greed, the genuine heart ofPosts: 7405

bodhichitta cannot be lost.

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beyond the stars
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #130 - on: 20.08.2011 at 20:16 [UT+1] »Matrika, that is a wonderful, positive, uplifting thought.
I have appended a picture a friend of mine took in a temple in Tibet to add to your thought.
_________________________________________________________
separate thought, not intended for anyone in particular:
Posts: 1005

I think people here get snarky because they're unhappy and/or bored. It's part of the human condition. Plus,
it's a site that has somehow turned into an agony aunt column, mostly, so ... you're going to get a lot of
kvetching. I think Zappo is exactly right to be irritated a lot of the time, and he's also a multiple h, isn't he?
so what you guys expect, I do not know.
All of you who lust after Scorpios should be paying attention: this is what they're like to live with.
good luck to all of you whose secret dreams involve h energy.

bloodyCoup de foudre that ends in tears, usually for well-meaning air signs whose secret wish is to be able to emoteheavily.... you only think that's what you want....
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Bodhisattva.jpeg (attachment deleted)
IP Loggedgcnorman22

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #131 - on: 20.08.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:
Hi Dren,
Quote:
I just saw this a minute ago, it wasn't that I was ignoring your post.

Posts: 438
Gender:No problem at all - don't worry.

Besides many other modern astrology experts and teachers (e.g. L. Greene, Joanne Wickenburg), Stephen Arroyo claims in his book
"Astrology, Karma & Transformation" that the outer planets are absolutely out of our conscious control. He says that the energies of theouters are not at all steerable.

C) about this subject.
C) to engage with it. Then reads books (C) , calculates charts (C) , learns the vocabulary (C), memorizes( C/ B) astrological elements and constellations, analyses ( C) signs and symbols, combines ( C) and interprets ( C) them - and all of
Now this is what happens when someone is going to study astrology. First of all he/she is interested and curious (He/she consciously decides (this is done on a conscious level.
I don't know of any beginner who starts learning astrology by just sitting in front of a chart and waiting for insights (flashes (H) and intuitive

H). This is, IMO, by no means the common way to start astrology (or any other science).

Even a professional astrologer starts with the analysis of the chart symbols and with their logical interpretation - but here, if

H issomewhat prominent in his/her chart and connected to personal factors, he/she is able to take advantage of the intuitive energy of
may very well enhance his/her capabilities as an astrologer and counsellor.
An astrologer who tries to relate totally on

H that

H would be absolutely unreliable, erratic and even if he/she would come to right conclusions

he/she normally would not be able to explain the rationale behind them, which is a normal feature of intuition - he/she would just 'know'.
And as is proved through psychological studies, even this 'knowledge' is always unreliable and he/she could be totally wrong.

When starting with astrology I also learned thatH rules astrology and astrologers. But even before having the slightest idea of traditional
H ruling astrology. I never neglected that H can help

astrology and what it has to say, I felt that there clearly is something wrong withastrologers in practicing their subject - and I still don't neglect it today.

As so often stated by modern experts: the outer planets are transpersonal and out of our conscious control (which does not mean that theycannot have any impact on our lifes). If

H rules/controls astrology, then astrology is out of control and a real arbitrary endeavor.

Jogi

Well....I don't get, I cannot understand the basis of such a definitive underlined statement from Stephen
Arroyo, frankly. Take for example small transits from Mercury to natal Pluto or Uranus, or longer range ones
from Uranus or Pluto to natal Mercury. I think it's true that in many events much of the energy of these transits
is lost in "inconscious" ways (ie, the person don't actively use it). But other times, one notices that it can behandled consciously, focused for example to research and sustain mental efforts thru long periods, etc.
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Pallas27
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #132 - on: 21.08.2011 at 01:33 [UT+1] »9th house for me (and Deb Houlding et al;);Places and situations where we seek guidance and wisdom from others. Where we reach out into the unknown
in search of widening our knowledge and understanding.
Dreams, visions, inspired thoughts, divination, astrology, mysticism, philosophy, beliefs; the desire to unitewith something greater than oneself.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html
Personally, I see astrology as divination which is a 9th house issue, in my book anyway.
I also follow horary rules; if you wish to consult an astrologer they are 7th house.
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Curiosa Nervosa

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #133 - on: 21.08.2011 at 10:29 [UT+1] »It could also be 9th and 11th.

Posts: 4365
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IP LoggedMichelle
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #134 - on: 21.08.2011 at 16:01 [UT+1] »Hi, Pallas
Your/Deborah Houlding's (The Houses: Temples of the Sky) logic is sound for astrology belonging to H9.
*****Rex Bills (The Rulership Book) doesn't assign a house to astrology, but does give k and O for astrologers.
Lee Lehman (Essential Dignities) has a chapter in her book that compares al-Biruni's natural rulership
attributions with those of Rex Bills, but doesn't give one for astrology or astrologers.
Rex Bills checked all sources that he could find and would put the most common ruler out in front and the least
common ruler in parentheses. He doesn't give a house for astrology, but gives O and k for astrologers.
EA correllates the planet with the sign and the house.
From the Web: In Greek mythology Uranus was the god of the sky (Ouranos), and reigns everything to do withthe sky: from spaceships to astronomy to astrology. Astrology uses the solar system as its basis, and thus it
looks at the "sky" to learn something about ourselves.
Some have mentioned H3 as the best fit for astrology.
Some consider astrology to be occult, and hence could be placed in the 8th.
Some put astrology in H11 due to its connection with k and O and systems.
Others would put astrology in H12 if it doesn't fit in any other house.
There are many systems in astrology. Astrology is associated with different houses according to the systemused. Each system works in its own unique way.
Therefore, can we not honor each individual system and branch - Vedic, Huber, Uranian, Horary, traditional,
modern, EA, financial, mundane, psychological, astrometeorology, astrocartography, Chinese, Tibetan, etc. and keep an open mind, give each astrology system and group the freedom to individuate and be unique?
After all, this is a public forum which is inclusive of all methods. All astrology groups and practitioners unite
and are welcome in associations such as the AFA.
At the very least I would hope that we're evolved enough to stop making personal comments such as these:
Quote from _Paul_ on 20.08.2011 at 10:43 [UT+1]:
True! He certainly made a laughing stock of your points. He's a true comedian who can have even a clown be laughed at and for the clown
to laugh too in ignorance.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #135 - on: 21.08.2011 at 19:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 20.08.2011 at 13:43 [UT+1]:
Besides many other modern astrology experts and teachers (e.g. L. Greene, Joanne Wickenburg), Stephen Arroyo claims in his book
"Astrology, Karma & Transformation" that the outer planets are absolutely out of our conscious control. He says that the energies of theouters are not at all steerable.

Yeah, I know some astrologers believe outers don't affect people on a personal level and/or that people can't
really control or handle the energies. I've never really bought that since I looked at the charts of relatives andmyself and know from firsthand experience that it's not so. Maybe it's true if the person in question doesn't
have the outers prominent in any way though, and by 'prominent' I mean aspecting a luminary, or conjunct anangle or as a chart ruler.
I also agree absolutely that Uranus on its own is no good for these types of things, same thing with Neptune.
You need a strong Saturn or at least a decent amount of earth in the chart for grounding. My own Saturn isexalted, trines my ascendant and sextiles Mercury as well as a Mercury-Uranus contraparallel so I've got thatcovered more or less. If I'm completely honest with myself, I probably should just drop any other career
aspirations and pursue becoming an astrologer but I won't do it because where I live there's really no market
for astrologers, I'd starve to death.
I've read that Uranus rules astrology, and also read that Uranus rules some aspects of the metaphysical and theoccult - another area astrology is usually lumped into. Sure, I know that traditional astrologers feel differently,
and they're absolutely entitled to it. I respect that, I just don't agree and I'm going to continue going withwhat has shown itself to me to work and actually be accurate.
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #136 - on: 21.08.2011 at 20:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 21.08.2011 at 16:01 [UT+1]:
Hi, Pallas
Your/Deborah Houlding's (The Houses: Temples of the Sky) logic is sound for astrology belonging to H9.
*****Rex Bills (The Rulership Book) doesn't assign a house to astrology, but does give

k and O for astrologers.

Lee Lehman (Essential Dignities) has a chapter in her book that compares al-Biruni's natural rulership attributions with those of Rex Bills,
but doesn't give one for astrology or astrologers.
Rex Bills checked all sources that he could find and would put the most common ruler out in front and the least common ruler inparentheses. He doesn't give a house for astrology, but gives

O and k for astrologers.

EA correllates the planet with the sign and the house.
From the Web: In Greek mythology Uranus was the god of the sky (Ouranos), and reigns everything to do with the sky: from spaceships
to astronomy to astrology. Astrology uses the solar system as its basis, and thus it looks at the "sky" to learn something about ourselves.
Some have mentioned H3 as the best fit for astrology.
Some consider astrology to be occult, and hence could be placed in the 8th.
Some put astrology in H11 due to its connection withk and O and systems.

Others would put astrology in H12 if it doesn't fit in any other house.

There are many systems in astrology. Astrology is associated with different houses according to
the system used. Each system works in its own unique way.
Therefore, can we not honor each individual system and branch - Vedic, Huber, Uranian, Horary, traditional, modern, EA, financial,mundane, psychological, astrometeorology, astrocartography, Chinese, Tibetan, etc. - and keep an open mind, give each astrology system
and group the freedom to individuate and be unique?
After all, this is a public forum which is inclusive of all methods. All astrology groups and practitioners unite and are welcome inassociations such as the AFA.
. . .

It is said that the 9th house signifies foreign languages. Since each language works "in its own unique way"
maybe it's more accurate to assign different houses to the various languages. I offer for consideration the 2nd
house for French, the 6th house for Dutch and the 11th house for Polish. Feel free to switch those around tosuit your own preferences.

Quote:
Your/Deborah Houlding's (The Houses: Temples of the Sky) logic is sound for astrology belonging to H9.

Just what, exactly, is astrology belonging to the 9th house? Are the different kinds of astrology pure enough to
be 'housed' completely separately? If they use the same planets with the same symbolism located in the samesigns, making the same aspects, then I sure can't see an easy classification into 9th, 8th, 12th, 11th and apparently - even 3rd house astrology.
Yep, astrologers look like a bunch of dipshits alright.
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ZappoII

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #137 - on: 21.08.2011 at 20:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Michelle on 21.08.2011 at 16:01 [UT+1]:
Hi, Pallas
Your/Deborah Houlding's (The Houses: Temples of the Sky) logic is sound for astrology belonging to H9.
*****Rex Bills (The Rulership Book) doesn't assign a house to astrology, but does give

k and O for astrologers.

Lee Lehman (Essential Dignities) has a chapter in her book that compares al-Biruni's natural rulership attributions with those of Rex Bills,
but doesn't give one for astrology or astrologers.

Rex Bills checked all sources that he could find and would put the most common ruler out in front and the least
common ruler in parentheses. He doesn't give a house for astrology, but gives

O and k for astrologers.

. . .

His book came out in 1971. The available sources would have been largely modern. At the time a few
astrologers would have read Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos. Lilly's Christian Astrology wasn't republished until 1985
after centuries of neglect (I believe there was a drastically shortened and altered version in the mid 19th
century). Many works in Latin, Greek and Arabic were stashed away and available only to scholars of the nonastrological academic type. We're now getting a better idea of how astrology was practiced over a period ofmany centuries.
You need to update. You need Lee Lehman's rulership book as a corrective.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #138 - on: 21.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1] »...Zappo?
You can't force people to agree with you and all trying does is make people dig in their heels.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #139 - on: 21.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 21.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:...Zappo?
You can't force people to agree with you and all trying does is make people dig in their heels.

Pointing out squishy thinking and the mistake of relying too strongly on outdated and incomplete sources isalways a good thing to do. Anyone who blissfully persists in a mental muddle or insists on following limited or
inaccurate authorities is being rather foolish, or is simply bound to their cherished beliefs. I don't plan on
wasting my time with such folks. But I will point out to others who are more flexible that the quoted
authoritative book is 40 years old and that during those 40 years astrological knowledge has changed
immensely with the rediscovery of many ancient and medieval works through translation and publication.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #140 - on: 21.08.2011 at 21:52 [UT+1] »Sakoian & Acker give 11th and 8th houses as the two mainly occult houses. The 11th more for astrology andthe 8th more for afterlife matters, yoga, tarot. I find it to be accurate in the thirty some odd years since I was
introduced to their work.
The Astrologer's Handbook
The Astrology of Human Relationships
Predictive Astrology
I am reading A Brief History of Ancient Astrology by Roger Beck written in 2007. He is not an astrologer or abeliever in astrology. He is a historian who has written about the religions of the Roman Empire.
The Greeks admired Babylonian astrology and associated Babylon with technical acumen and arithemticalaccuracy, but the Greeks expanded that system. They added Ascendant/Descendant and MC/IC (called"centers") and the houses. The term "house" was used for what is today called "rulership" as in house[rulership], exaltation, humiliation [fall], etc...so, the houses are called "places", i.e. the 1st place, the 2nd
place, the 3rd place.
Though they accurately calculated Asc and MC, they never standardized the place (houses) system. Somesystems were 12 but some were 8. The 12 house system eventually dominated. Strictly speaking, the houses
were unequal, with the MC being the10th house cusp, but in practice they usually used equal house.
Nonetheless, they called the 10th house the Midheaven (with MC principles), and so on..
The meanings were suggestive of today's meanings but with many contradictions and a lack of standard
interpretations. For instance, some called the 2nd place "Gain", but Antiochus called it "Hope of gain", and the
5th house was considered earnings from livelihood. There were a number of inconsistencies and redundancies
as well as disagreements.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #141 - on: 21.08.2011 at 21:59 [UT+1] »If you look a Lilly (Christian Astrology), he is scattered. Under 8th he adds "the opponent's seconds in a duel".
Not much help, Lilly.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #142 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.08.2011 at 21:59 [UT+1]:
If you look a Lilly (Christian Astrology), he is scattered. Under 8th he adds "the opponent's seconds in a duel". Not much help, Lilly.

We are expected to think for ourselves. In a matter of revenge the 8th just might signify the opponent's
friends, cousins or whatever who come to the aid of that opponent. If you ask a horary question about
successfully getting back at someone look to the 2nd house for assistance.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #143 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.08.2011 at 21:59 [UT+1]:
If you look a Lilly (Christian Astrology), he is scattered. Under 8th he adds "the opponent's seconds in a duel". Not much help, Lilly.

Posts: 1210
Gender:

The logic is this:The second house is (among other things) your associates, assistants, etc. The seventh is (among other things)
your open enemies and opponents. The 8th is the 2nd from the 7th, so your opponent's assistants.
It's the exact same logic as the 8th showing other people's money.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #144 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 21.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 21.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:...Zappo?
You can't force people to agree with you and all trying does is make people dig in their heels.

Pointing out squishy thinking and the mistake of relying too strongly on outdated and incomplete sources is always a good thing to do.
Anyone who blissfully persists in a mental muddle or insists on following limited or inaccurate authorities is being rather foolish, or issimply bound to their cherished beliefs. I don't plan on wasting my time with such folks. But I will point out to others who are more
flexible that the quoted authoritative book is 40 years old and that during those 40 years astrological knowledge has changed immenselywith the rediscovery of many ancient and medieval works through translation and publication.

Zappo
We can't suggest that using an old book is 'squishy thinking'. It is true that more sources have emerged since
the book has been released, but we cannot say that it is squishy thinking to continue using it. The veryargument that is used against traditional astrology as a whole is that new evidence and sources emerged, or
the discovery or new asteroids have shifted our mass consciousness, or the discovery of new planets haschanged the scene etc. Yes astrological knowledge has changed considerably in the past 40 years but that does
not make the book redundant, after all, a lot has emerged and changed since Lilly but he's still useful to referto.
What we can say is that perhaps the book, great as it was for its time, may need to be reconsidered in light ofthe emergence of translations of older texts, but it would not make it squishy thinking if someone disagreed.
Of course I still think astrology is 9th house and have not seen any satisfactory reason for it to be otherwise,
either here or elsewhere. The most common reason for assigning it to the 11th seems to be to do withreferences to the planet Uranus, and, of course, the planet-house links have been talked to death elsewhere
anyway.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #145 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.08.2011 at 21:52 [UT+1]:
The Greeks admired Babylonian astrology and associated Babylon with technical acumen and arithemtical accuracy, but the Greeks
expanded that system. They added Ascendant/Descendant and MC/IC (called "centers") and the houses. The term "house" was used forwhat is today called "rulership" as in house [rulership], exaltation, humiliation [fall], etc...so, the houses are called "places", i.e. the 1stplace, the 2nd place, the 3rd place.

The common greeks probably did. Some of the 'nobility' were less than complimentary however. Though I
guess it depends on the timeframe in question I suppose. I know that many of the educated elite of greece
ridiculed and mocked the babylonians for their strict adherence to empiricism for example, they who favoured
the 'perfection' of theory over observation.
(Do not jump on me for this please, it's not a contradiction, just a shading it a little bit more grey into the
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #146 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:28 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.08.2011 at 21:59 [UT+1]:
If you look a Lilly (Christian Astrology), he is scattered. Under 8th he adds "the opponent's seconds in a duel". Not much help, Lilly.

Omg SOOOOOO much help actually. In fact we use this all the time in the horary forum. If you look at thecharts for legal battles, the 2nd house (or second from the 7th for the opponent) can show their help and aids,in practical sense their witnesses or financial aid or, sometimes, their lawyer who is defending them. This isactually a very useful piece of information to hold on to - at least in horary. Granted it might not be useful for
natal astrology I suppose, but, correct me if I'm wrong, he's referencing this with horary in mind. We must
remember that natal is not the only astrology out there, and, when we're talking about Lilly, a lot of his stuff
had horary in mind.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #147 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:33 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 21.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 21.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:...Zappo?
You can't force people to agree with you and all trying does is make people dig in their heels.

Pointing out squishy thinking and the mistake of relying too strongly on outdated and incomplete sources is always a good thing to do.
Anyone who blissfully persists in a mental muddle or insists on following limited or inaccurate authorities is being rather foolish, or issimply bound to their cherished beliefs. I don't plan on wasting my time with such folks. But I will point out to others who are more
flexible that the quoted authoritative book is 40 years old and that during those 40 years astrological knowledge has changed immenselywith the rediscovery of many ancient and medieval works through translation and publication.

It's squishy thinking because it doesn't align with what you say is right...right?
Look, this board is for all schools of astrology, not just traditional. Nowhere does it say that the members mustpractice traditional astrology and it's really not your place to force it on people. Are you sure it just isn't thatyou're overly emotional invested in your 'cherished beliefs'? You repeatedly take basic threads and completely
derail them and turn them into traditional vs modern debates and big arguments, over and over....half of thetime nothing can really be discussed here in full because of it. Your behavior borders on outright trolling andhonestly I have no idea how it is that you've managed to escape a ban here because you're completely divisiveand cause a lot of unnecessary trouble, and make time spent here an incredibly frustrating experience,
constantly ambushing and arguing down anyone who isn't a devotee of your school of thought. If you reallyjust cannot deal with anyone practicing anything other than traditional astrology, why don't you just join astrictly traditional board?
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Penguin Trauma
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #148 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:44 [UT+1] »Haven't read the entire thread yet - but I'm sure I read that Astrology is ruled by the 11th house.

Posts: 8991
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ZappoII

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #149 - on: 21.08.2011 at 22:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 21.08.2011 at 22:33 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 21.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 21.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:...Zappo?
You can't force people to agree with you and all trying does is make people dig in their heels.

Pointing out squishy thinking and the mistake of relying too strongly on outdated and incomplete sources is always a goodthing to do. Anyone who blissfully persists in a mental muddle or insists on following limited or inaccurate authorities isbeing rather foolish, or is simply bound to their cherished beliefs. I don't plan on wasting my time with such folks. But I
will point out to others who are more flexible that the quoted authoritative book is 40 years old and that during those 40
years astrological knowledge has changed immensely with the rediscovery of many ancient and medieval works throughtranslation and publication.

It's squishy thinking because it doesn't align with what you say is right...right?

Look, this board is for all schools of astrology, not just traditional. Nowhere does it say that the members mustpractice traditional astrology and it's really not your place to force it on people. Are you sure it just isn't that you're overly emotional
invested in your 'cherished beliefs'? You repeatedly take basic threads and completely derail them and turn them into traditional vsmodern debates and big arguments, over and over....half of the time nothing can really be discussed here in full because of it. Yourbehavior borders on outright trolling and honestly I have no idea how it is that you've managed to escape a ban here because you're
completely divisive and cause a lot of unnecessary trouble, and make time spent here an incredibly frustrating experience, constantly
ambushing and arguing down anyone who isn't a devotee of your school of thought. If you really just cannot deal with anyone practicing
anything other than traditional astrology, why don't you just join a strictly traditional board?

Yes. And they apparently all get their very own house in the chart. Squishy. It's not a matter of traditional ormodern. It's a matter of squishy, flabby thinking.

Quote:Your behavior borders on outright trolling and honestly I have no idea how it is that you've managed to escape a ban here because you're
completely divisive and cause a lot of unnecessary trouble, and make time spent here an incredibly frustrating experience, constantly
ambushing and arguing down anyone who isn't a devotee of your school of thought.

That's a mouthful. Anyone else care to comment?
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #150 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:02 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 21.08.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 21.08.2011 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 21.08.2011 at 20:54 [UT+1]:...Zappo?
You can't force people to agree with you and all trying does is make people dig in their heels.

Pointing out squishy thinking and the mistake of relying too strongly on outdated andincomplete sources is always a good thing to do. Anyone who blissfully persists in a mental muddle or insists onfollowing limited or inaccurate authorities is being rather foolish, or is simply bound to their cherished beliefs. I don't planon wasting my time with such folks. But I will point out to others who are more flexible that the quoted authoritative bookis 40 years old and that during those 40 years astrological knowledge has changed immensely with the rediscovery of many
ancient and medieval works through translation and publication.

Zappo

We can't suggest that using an old book is 'squishy thinking'. It is true that more sources have emerged since
the book has been released, but we cannot say that it is squishy thinking to continue using it. The very argument that is used against
traditional astrology as a whole is that new evidence and sources emerged, or the discovery or new asteroids have shifted our massconsciousness, or the discovery of new planets has changed the scene etc. Yes astrological knowledge has changed considerably in the past
40 years but that does not make the book redundant, after all, a lot has emerged and changed since Lilly but he's still useful to refer to.
What we can say is that perhaps the book, great as it was for its time, may need to be reconsidered in light of the emergence oftranslations of older texts, but it would not make it squishy thinking if someone disagreed.
Of course I still think astrology is 9th house and have not seen any satisfactory reason for it to be otherwise, either here or elsewhere. The
most common reason for assigning it to the 11th seems to be to do with references to the planet Uranus, and, of course, the planet-houselinks have been talked to death elsewhere anyway.

As I've shown by highlighting the relevant phrase in the quote, I was referring to two different things: The now
outdated (but not useless) book and the confusing idea of assigning different houses to different kinds ofastrology. It was the latter that I called "squishy". The book can still serve a purpose. It just needs to besupplemented and not solely relied upon, as I pointed out earlier.
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*Gia*Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #151 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1] »Some sources put astrology as a 9H matter.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #152 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 21.08.2011 at 22:23 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 21.08.2011 at 21:59 [UT+1]:
If you look a Lilly (Christian Astrology), he is scattered. Under 8th he adds "the opponent's seconds in a duel". Not muchhelp, Lilly.

The logic is this:The second house is (among other things) your associates, assistants, etc. The seventh is (among other things) your open enemies andopponents. The 8th is the 2nd from the 7th, so your opponent's assistants.
It's the exact same logic as the 8th showing other people's money.

To be more precise: The succedent houses show the resources available to the preceding angle. The assistants
are viewed as resources. That's my understanding of it - and an idea that Deborah Houlding has often
mentioned.
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beyond the stars

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #153 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1] »yes, I'm in a bad mood, so I'll comment.
Squishy thinking comes from not having done the research. Now, Zappo, much like me in days of yore,deplores an environment he finds himself in, because he can see with clearer eyes than most that very few
devotées at the shrine have actually done much, if any, of the kinds of research he's talking about. This lack ofknowledge and clarity, all the while rummaging about in Mary Poppin's magic carpetbag for answers to obvious
questions gets on one's nerves.
Posts: 1005

I'm speaking for Z today, since I'm irritable. Ordinarily, I talk around people and ignore them, but all he's
saying, albeit in a snarky and mostly unpleasant way is: read the books the discipline of astrology is founded
upon, people, digest what you read, and don't just come here and regurgitate the crap you read online bypeople who have dubious credentials at best. Take some classes; become proficient at it.
In other words, take it seriously, instead of treating it the way it is treated far too often, as tabloid gossip
fodder. He sounds impassioned about his subject, because if you read between his lines, he has done a lot of
research. Even if you don't like the way someone says something, at the very least recognize the passion
behind the words. That emotion isn't there because the person is a dilettante; precisely the opposite is usuallytrue.
Back to the Z-man, who is probably in a much better mood than am I.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #154 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Horisont on 21.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1]:
yes, I'm in a bad mood, so I'll comment.
Squishy thinking comes from not having done the research. Now, Zappo, much like me in days of yore, deplores the environment he finds
himself in, because he can see with clearer eyes than most that very few devotées at the shrine have actually done much, if any, of thekinds of research he's talking about. This lack of knowledge and clarity, all the while rummaging about in Mary Poppin's magic carpetbag
for answers to obvious questions gets on one's nerves.
I'm speaking for Z today, since I'm irritable. Ordinarily, I talk around people and ignore them, but all he's saying, albeit in a snarky andmostly unpleasant way is: read the books the discipline of astrology is founded upon, people, digest what you read, and don't just comehere and regurgitate the crap you read online by people who have dubious credentials at best. Take some classes; become proficient at it.
In other words, take it seriously, instead of treating it, far too often, as tabloid gossip fodder. He sounds impassioned about his subject,because if you read between his lines, he has done a lot of research.

Back to the Z-man, who is probably in a much better mood than am I.

Snarky and unpleasant?

Oh, maybe a litttle bit. I do get disgusted sometimes.
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beyond the stars

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #155 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:14 [UT+1] »oh for god's sake, buck up man.
no crying. I implore you.

Posts: 1005
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #156 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:20 [UT+1] »Horisont's contribution deserves to be repeated:"read the books the discipline of astrology is founded upon, people, digest what you read, and don't
just come here and regurgitate the crap you read online by people who have dubious credentials at
best."

That sums it up very well. And it's refreshingly snarky.
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beyond the stars

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #157 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:23 [UT+1] »careful.
we'll be accused of forming a clique or cabal if we're seen cavorting together.

Posts: 1005
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #158 - on: 21.08.2011 at 23:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Horisont on 21.08.2011 at 23:23 [UT+1]:
careful.
we'll be accused of forming a clique or cabal if we're seen cavorting together.

Not to worry. We will undoubtedly beat each other up in another thread some day. All in good fun, of course.
And for the enlightenment of humanity.
Some day.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #159 - on: 22.08.2011 at 03:57 [UT+1] »Back on page 5 the old k/H11 thread was mentioned. I got to thinking --- In that thread the case was madefor science and scientists being found in the 11th house rather than the 9th. Following the logic of the idea inthe current thread that the different kinds of astrology need to be placed in different houses, then it stands toreason that the same would need to be done with science and scientists. Botany, astronomy and volcanology
couldn't share one house. With the numerous branches of science we would manage to fill up all the houses inno time.
The traditional 9th house placement of both science and astrology still is the best choice - and probably the
only valid one. As it happens, both western science and western horoscopic astrology developed from thewestern philosophical tradition (9th house). As others have mentioned, astrology has connections to 9th housedivination.
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IP LoggedJogi64

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #160 - on: 22.08.2011 at 08:53 [UT+1] »Nobody has the right to force his/her view or opinion onto other people. This also holds true for us who are
more or less traditional oriented.
But what I and everybody else (modern and traditional) should be allowed to do in a public forum, is:- to ask questions about why somebody uses elements in the way he/she uses them or what the logic behindthem is- to ask questions that investigate the validity of certain views/beliefs (as meant in a Socratic style)- to present a different and/or contradictory view
Posts: 1042

But it is very important to bear in mind (as I said in my thread) that all this should happen in a polite,

Gender:respectful, fact-bounded and neutral manner and choice of words.
Nobody must agree with me, nobody must adopt my view or my methods. When I want others to getinterested in them and want them to get curious about them, all I can do is to present them in the above said
manner.
After I’ve done so it’s totally up to them if they agree, if they partially agree or if they disagree at all. If I
achieve to arouse interest, they may ask further questions. Everything else would lead to the fact that they
block against my view and against what I want to present.
Jogi

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #161 - on: 22.08.2011 at 09:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 22.08.2011 at 08:53 [UT+1]:- to ask questions that investigate the validity of certain views/beliefs (as meant in a Socratic style)

Whenever I try this it ends in disaster and personal attacks. I do think it's the best approach though forhighlighting any discrepancies in the logic.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #162 - on: 22.08.2011 at 09:46 [UT+1] »Quote from Horisont on 21.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1]:
yes, I'm in a bad mood, so I'll comment.
Squishy thinking comes from not having done the research. Now, Zappo, much like me in days of yore, deplores an environment he finds
himself in, because he can see with clearer eyes than most that very few devotées at the shrine have actually done much, if any, of thekinds of research he's talking about. This lack of knowledge and clarity, all the while rummaging about in Mary Poppin's magic carpetbag
for answers to obvious questions gets on one's nerves.
I'm speaking for Z today, since I'm irritable. Ordinarily, I talk around people and ignore them, but all he's saying, albeit in a snarky andmostly unpleasant way is: read the books the discipline of astrology is founded upon, people, digest what you read, and don't just comehere and regurgitate the crap you read online by people who have dubious credentials at best. Take some classes; become proficient at it.
In other words, take it seriously, instead of treating it the way it is treated far too often, as tabloid gossip fodder. He sounds impassioned
about his subject, because if you read between his lines, he has done a lot of research. Even if you don't like the way someone says
something, at the very least recognize the passion behind the words. That emotion isn't there because the person is a dilettante; precisely
the opposite is usually true.
Back to the Z-man, who is probably in a much better mood than am I.

...You don't know me or most of the other members here well enough to assume what anyone has or hasn't
read or researched, or how seriously anyone takes astrology so for you to state any of the above as fact theway you did was absolutely asinine as well as extraordinarily disrespectful. You'll ultimately embarrass yourself agreat deal less if you took the time to think before you type and only spoke on people and things you actuallyknow something about. It's rather unfortunate that I even have to explain this to you when honestly I'm pretty
sure you're much older than I am and should already know better at your age.
And I'm sure right now you find Zappo perfectly charming but give it a few weeks, until you start noticing that
he derails most of the threads posted in this section of the boards, turning them all into modern vs traditional
debates. Let's see how enthusiastic you are about him when he does it to a thread you've started, or a threadon very specific subject matter that you're really interested in and want to know more about...and then does itover and over and over again.
There's a difference between 'passion' and trolling, baiting and essentially trying to cyber-bully people in orderto make them agree with you and it's incredibly irresponsible of you to condone and encourage his behavior. No
one is saying that he doesn't have a right to think traditional is great. Plenty of astrologers here do and most
don't have a problem with any of them. The problem is with him specifically because of the way he terrorizes
and monopolizes the board. We heard him the first three billion times. Frankly if he cannot deal withastrologers who don't follow his own school of thought then as I said before, he shouldn't be here. This isn't
the 'traditional-only boards' or the 'traditional astrology vs modern astrology debate boards', it's the 'astrology'
boards, period.
Next time you rush in to play Superman for someone you should make sure the person you're saving actuallydeserves the help.

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #163 - on: 22.08.2011 at 11:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 22.08.2011 at 09:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from Horisont on 21.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1]:
yes, I'm in a bad mood, so I'll comment.
Squishy thinking comes from not having done the research. Now, Zappo, much like me in days of yore, deplores anenvironment he finds himself in, because he can see with clearer eyes than most that very few devotées at the shrine
have actually done much, if any, of the kinds of research he's talking about. This lack of knowledge and clarity, all thewhile rummaging about in Mary Poppin's magic carpetbag for answers to obvious questions gets on one's nerves.
I'm speaking for Z today, since I'm irritable. Ordinarily, I talk around people and ignore them, but all he's saying, albeit ina snarky and mostly unpleasant way is: read the books the discipline of astrology is founded upon, people, digest what you
read, and don't just come here and regurgitate the crap you read online by people who have dubious credentials at best.
Take some classes; become proficient at it.
In other words, take it seriously, instead of treating it the way it is treated far too often, as tabloid gossip fodder. He
sounds impassioned about his subject, because if you read between his lines, he has done a lot of research. Even if you
don't like the way someone says something, at the very least recognize the passion behind the words. That emotion isn't
there because the person is a dilettante; precisely the opposite is usually true.
Back to the Z-man, who is probably in a much better mood than am I.

...You don't know me or most of the other members here well enough to assume what anyone has or hasn't read or researched, or how
seriously anyone takes astrology so for you to state any of the above as fact the way you did was absolutely asinine as well as
extraordinarily disrespectful. You'll ultimately embarrass yourself a great deal less if you took the time to think before you type and only
spoke on people and things you actually know something about. It's rather unfortunate that I even have to explain this to you whenhonestly I'm pretty sure you're much older than I am and should already know better at your age.
And I'm sure right now you find Zappo perfectly charming but give it a few weeks, until you start noticing that he derails most of

the threads posted in this section of the boards, turning them all into modern vs traditional debates. Let's see how
enthusiastic you are about him when he does it to a thread you've started, or a thread on very specific subject matter that you're reallyinterested in and want to know more about...and then does it over and over and over again.
There's a difference between 'passion' and trolling, baiting and essentially trying to cyber-bully people in order to make them agree withyou and it's incredibly irresponsible of you to condone and encourage his behavior. No one is saying that he doesn't have a right to think
traditional is great. Plenty of astrologers here do and most don't have a problem with any of them. The problem is with him specificallybecause of the way he terrorizes and monopolizes the board. We heard him the first three billion times. Frankly if he cannot deal withastrologers who don't follow his own school of thought then as I said before, he shouldn't be here. This isn't the 'traditional-only boards' or
the 'traditional astrology vs modern astrology debate boards', it's the 'astrology' boards, period.
Next time you rush in to play Superman for someone you should make sure the person you're saving actually deserves the help.

Dearest Dren,
The topic is 'Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?' Exactly what part have you played in keeping thediscussion on track with that 353-word post?
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Jogi64

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #164 - on: 22.08.2011 at 12:18 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 09:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 22.08.2011 at 08:53 [UT+1]:- to ask questions that investigate the validity of certain views/beliefs (as meant in a Socratic style)

Whenever I try this it ends in disaster and personal attacks.

Believe me, I know what you're talking about. We both already shared our experiences in the other thread.
Posts: 1042
Gender:When I ask such a 'socratic' question, on the one hand it shall demonstrate my on state of 'not-knowing' and at
the same time it is meant as an appeal to the other person to answer this question or to admit his/her own
state of 'not-knowing'. An answer provokes the next question, and so on. This kind of critically questioning
existing views/attitudes may in the best case lead to a certain insight and subsequently to a change ofestablished opinions/views. It is something which is also used in cognitive behavioral therapy or in systemic
therapy - thus it is a totally legitimate tool.

The crux of the matter is: We don't have any warranties that other people are open for questions that could
lead them to admit, that their views may lack a certain inherent logic. The insights that can be gained withthese kinds of questions have to come absolutely voluntary, it has to be achieved through the persons
themselves. It cannot be imposed onto them. If I want them to follow my ideas I should try to arouse theircuriosity, their interest and in some cases I may even awake a certain desire or passion. In fact that's all I cando - everything else is up to my conversation partner (which fortunately already has happened a few times).
But I don't have any warranty whatsoever.
And whenever I do this questioning in a respectful and polite manner, I at least can concede myself a clean
conscious for not having attacked others in a snarky and/or infringing manner.
Jogi

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #165 - on: 22.08.2011 at 14:22 [UT+1] »The forum rules are alread established by the site personel. Anyway, it has been established that the true
motive of the traditional (more or less) crowd (I'd be happy to have a better term) is still to declare all those
who disagree as bad and wrong, bigotted even.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #166 - on: 22.08.2011 at 14:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 14:22 [UT+1]:
The forum rules are alread established by the site personel. Anyway, it has been established that the true motive of the traditional (moreor less) crowd (I'm happy to have a better term) are still to declare all those who disagree as bad and wrong, bigotted even.

[face...palm...]Seriously? What's been established is that he modern crowd stick to their guns and that the traditional crowd
stick to their guns.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #167 - on: 22.08.2011 at 14:35 [UT+1] »Of course the Babylonians added the signs and gave us almanacs of past and future planetary positions, but the
Greeks gave us natal astrology (versus Babylonian omen astrology), AS/DS, MC/IC, 12 places (12 houses).
A Brief History of Ancient Astrology [2007] takes into account the classical literature and history but adds theimportant discoveries of the late 1990's.
For example, the distinction between good and bad aspects, I suggest, is part of a much wider and more profound system of polarities
in Greek thought in which numerical "odd" is on the superior side of the ledger (along with right, straight, light, male and other"good" properties) and "even" on the inferior side (along with left, curved, dark, female, and other "bad" properties).

Far from superior, the ancients, the originators we are expected to read, combined with their legendary
achievements their chauvinism, bigotry and sexism. It is regarded by some today a foul thing to point out thecontradictions, failures, absurdities and prejudices of the time.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #168 - on: 22.08.2011 at 15:02 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 14:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 14:35 [UT+1]:
Of course the Babylonians added the signs and gave us almanacs of past and future planetary positions, but the Greeks
gave us natal astrology (versus Babylonian omen astrology), AS/DS, MC/IC, 12 places (12 houses).
A Brief History of Ancient Astrology [2007] takes into account the classical literature and history but adds the importantdiscoveries of the late 1990's.

For example, the distinction between good and bad aspects, I suggest, is part of a much wider and more
profound system of polarities in Greek thought in which numerical "odd" is on the superior side of theledger (along with right, straight, light, male and other "good" properties) and "even" on the inferior side(along with left, curved, dark, female, and other "bad" properties).
Far from superior, the ancients, the originators we are expected to read, combined with their legendary achievements theirchauvinism, bigotry and sexism. It is regarded by some today a foul thing to point out the contradictions, failures,
absurdities and prejudices of the time.

I'm pretty sure we have several examples of natal astrological tablets from the Babylonians as well Stephen. The Greeks did not originate
the idea of natal astrology. Almost certainly the Greeks codified it in a new way, but we cannot really attribute this to the Greeks per se,as, in Hellenistic times, it was more a sort of meltingpot of cultures under a Greek umbrella.

You are an alias posing as a psuedonymn on some internet web site. Roger Beck is Emeritus Professor at the
University Toronto, an expert on the topic. Don't expect me to fall for arrogance.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #169 - on: 22.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1] »Christian Astrology Vol. 1, An Introduction to Astrology by William Lilly
Quote:
CHAP. VII.
Of the Twelve Houses, their Nature and Signification.
As before we have said there are twelve signs, and also twelve houses of Heaven, so
now we are come to relate the nature of these twelve houses; the exact knowledge
whereof is so requisite, that he who shall learn the nature of the planets and signs
without exact judgement of the houses, is like an improvident man, that furnisheth
himself with variety of household stuff, having no place wherein to bestow them.
There is nothing appertaining to the life of man in this world, which in one way orother hath not relation to one of the twelve houses of Heaven, and as the twelve
signs are appropriate to the particular members of man’s body; so also do the twelve
houses represent not only the several parts of man, but his actions, quality of life andliving. And the curiosity and judgement of our fore-fathers in Astrology was such as
they have allotted to every house a particular signification, and so distinguishedhumane accidents throughout the twelve houses, as he that understands theQuestions appertaining to each of them, shall not want sufficient grounds whereon
to judge or give a rational answer upon any contingent accident, and success thereof.

Intellectually William Lilly is a clod in desperate need of an editor. Even the dimmest of modern astrologicalauthors will explain the astrological houses as, ahem!, Spheres of Life, and then quickly move on to theinterpretation of each house which will be a blend of character, circumstance, and motivation in a way
indistinguishable from a sign interpretation under a different name.
Lilly has told us that houses are astrological indicators, but we knew that. Signs and planets are also
astrological indicators. Nothing under heaven is not indicated by one of the 12 houses, says Lilly. So Lilly goeson to interpret the 12 houses with trivia and bon ami reminiscent of collections of snails and puppy-dog tails.
What is astounding is what Lilly omits.
If the 12 houses indicate all things under heaven, then it behooves a scholar (all astrologers should strive to bescholars) to provide a principle, and thus a heading, for each house. Since all things must be considered when
we consider houses, no heading or principle can be perfectly expressive, but it is one of the advancements
offered by some modern astrologers.
A good example:
1. SELF
2. VALUES
3. UNDERSTANDING
4. HOME
5. FUN
6. SERVICE
7. OTHERS
8. SECRETS
9. GROWTH
10 DESTINY
11. FELLOWSHIP
12. MYSTERY
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #170 - on: 22.08.2011 at 15:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 15:02 [UT+1]:
You are an alias posing as a psuedonymn on some internet web site. Roger Beck is Emeritus Professor at the University Toronto, an expert
on the topic. Don't expect me to fall for arrogance.

Posts: 1210
Gender:I would argue that an expert on the subject is someone who actually uses astrology for clients and makes
predictions with those methods.
I appreciate the work academics have done to provide the material, but Ben Dykes, Chris Warnock, and Lee
Lehman have more expertise in the subject.

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Yukionna

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #171 - on: 22.08.2011 at 15:16 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:

If the 12 houses indicate all things under heaven, then it behooves a scholar (all astrologers should strive to be scholars) to provide aprinciple, and thus a heading, for each house. Since all things must be considered when we consider houses, no heading or principle can beperfectly expressive, but it is one of the advancements offered by some modern astrologers.

Why must it have a heading? Houses have more than one meaning. Maybe I'm not getting your point....
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #172 - on: 22.08.2011 at 15:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 14:22 [UT+1]:
Anyway, it has been established that the true motive of the traditional (more or less) crowd (I'm happy to have a better term) are still todeclare all those who disagree as bad and wrong, bigotted even.

I don't know anything about the motives of other people, I only know my motives. And I know that it isabsolutely senseless to try to impose my own opinions onto other people. Why? Because, on the other hand it
is absolutely senseless to try to impose something onto me. When this happens it is a natural reaction to backaway and to defend my own views. This is my right and it is also your right.
Posts: 1042

The interesting thing is, that back when I started to study astrology, I was an impassioned advocate of

Gender:psychological astrology. Believe it or not - at that time I opposed and fought every view/idea that had theslightest traditional touch. That's the reason why I understand the defensive reaction of modern astrologers - Ieven understand your reactions (although I'm not always happy about your choice of words).
But I try to differentiate as best as I can - because it is not the 'whole crowd' of modern astrologers that showsuch a defensive attitude.
And as it is also your right to present modern astrological ideas, it is at the same time my right to present
traditional astrological ideas. But each of us must definitely not agree with what the other has presented and hedefinitely must not adopt it.
When modern methods and ideas are presented I should be allowed to present another view; no matter if thisview is totally contradictory or if it only gives some shades of grey. When someone rejects my views and ideas,
he/she is certainly not bad or wrong. It's just his/her right to do so.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #173 - on: 22.08.2011 at 15:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 15:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 14:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 14:35 [UT+1]:
Of course the Babylonians added the signs and gave us almanacs of past and future planetary positions, but
the Greeks gave us natal astrology (versus Babylonian omen astrology), AS/DS, MC/IC, 12 places (12houses).
A Brief History of Ancient Astrology [2007] takes into account the classical literature and history but adds
the important discoveries of the late 1990's.

For example, the distinction between good and bad aspects, I suggest, is part of a muchwider and more profound system of polarities in Greek thought in which numerical "odd" ison the superior side of the ledger (along with right, straight, light, male and other "good"
properties) and "even" on the inferior side (along with left, curved, dark, female, and other"bad" properties).
Far from superior, the ancients, the originators we are expected to read, combined with their legendary
achievements their chauvinism, bigotry and sexism. It is regarded by some today a foul thing to point out
the contradictions, failures, absurdities and prejudices of the time.

I'm pretty sure we have several examples of natal astrological tablets from the Babylonians as well Stephen. The Greeks
did not originate the idea of natal astrology. Almost certainly the Greeks codified it in a new way, but we cannot reallyattribute this to the Greeks per se, as, in Hellenistic times, it was more a sort of meltingpot of cultures under a Greek
umbrella.

You are an alias posing as a psuedonymn on some internet web site. Roger Beck is Emeritus Professor at the University Toronto, an expert
on the topic. Don't expect me to fall for arrogance.

And yet Professors get it wrong all the time. I'm still pretty sure we have an example of natal astrology in
Babylon. I'll dig further and get the references you require. Bare in mind that Roger Beck is not actually posting
here, you are. You may have gotten it wrong just as easily as I may have. Can you provide the references where
Roger states that the Babylonians did not practice any form of natal astrology?
As for being an alias posing a pseudonym and all that nonsense, I am not. My name is Paul. I post under thename Paul. What could be clearer?
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #174 - on: 22.08.2011 at 16:06 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 15:55 [UT+1]:
And yet Professors get it wrong all the time. I'm still pretty sure we have an example of natal astrology in Babylon. I'll dig further and get
the references you require. Bare in mind that Roger Beck is not actually posting here, you are. You may have gotten it wrong just as
easily as I may have. Can you provide the references where Roger states that the Babylonians did not practice any form of natal

Posts: 1210
Gender:astrology?

I think there are a couple of examples, but there's little resemblance to something we would recognize as
horoscopic astrology. The Greeks really codified it.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #175 - on: 22.08.2011 at 16:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 22.08.2011 at 16:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 15:55 [UT+1]:
And yet Professors get it wrong all the time. I'm still pretty sure we have an example of natal astrology in Babylon. I'll dig
further and get the references you require. Bare in mind that Roger Beck is not actually posting here, you are. You may
have gotten it wrong just as easily as I may have. Can you provide the references where Roger states that the Babylonians
did not practice any form of natal astrology?

I think there are a couple of examples, but there's little resemblance to something we would recognize as horoscopic astrology. The
Greeks really codified it.

I don't disagree it was codified as we know it (more or less) during the Hellenistic period, but the idea that the
Greeks 'gave us' natal astrology. I'm almost certain there's an example where dignity is actually implied in ababylonian example (even if the word dignity isn't used per se) which is why I tentatively dispute this. I'd needto double check it. If I can find a quote or a source I'll reference it here. What I actually only meant to do was
double check what Stephen was saying cos it didn't seem right. I didn't expect that even in that he'd find a way
to wriggle in some more personal attacks. Seriously any more and I'm going to make an official complaint. I'm
fed up of posting on here and being insulted and name called. Nobody is doing that to Stephen so it's totally
unjustified.
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melekusha
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #176 - on: 22.08.2011 at 16:57 [UT+1] »guys how is 9 house rules astrology? is it because of the philosophical contest to it?
exploration of the science? studies, ext?
im a beginner and would like to understand it better
Posts: 2425
Gender:thank you

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Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #177 - on: 22.08.2011 at 17:51 [UT+1] »Quote from melekusha on 22.08.2011 at 16:57 [UT+1]:
guys how is 9 house rules astrology? is it because of the philosophical contest to it?
exploration of the science? studies, ext?
im a beginner and would like to understand it better
thank you

The 9th House
by Dana Gerhard

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgninthhouse_e.htm"Whenever we reach a personal limit, after a divorce, a career gone bad, when life doesn’t turn out as we hoped
it would, to the 9th house we’ll go. We’ll take a trip. We’ll return to school. We’ll seek advice from a 9th houseperson—an astrologer, lawyer, or priest. We’ll pray for God’s blessings. As we go through the outer 9th house
motions, inwardly we’re reaching, stretching and struggling to acquire a new perspective on our world.
The 9th encourages our quest for meaning in life. But generally we don’t go there until life falls apart. Few of us
retire gaily to our dens to pen our personal philosophies. Something upends us and starts our questioning.
There is an astrological connection between the 9th house and crisis. The 9th follows the 8th house of deathand dissolution. In the 8th the ground is razed, monsters crawl up from the basement, our identities are
stripped and laid bare. Something we’ve held onto dies. At such moments, we raise our eyes and seek a higher
power’s grace. We want to connect with something greater than ourselves. Would we look for the gods if ourtummies were full and life were constantly joyful?
The 9th rules the literature of spirit, the metaphors, symbols and myths that bind a culture, its moral codes, its
shared ideals and visions. No other house speaks so eloquently of the dignity and intelligence of the humanspirit. The 9th is a decidedly human house. What other species builds temples and universities or courts of law?
Perhaps what most distinguishes humankind from the animals is our capacity for abstract thought. We look forunderlying patterns, the overarching laws of Nature. We try to master our fates, predicting and planning for the
future—based on our experience of the past or what we can divine from portentous symbols. Animals live in thepresent. Through language and imagery, we humans travel in time, building on the foundations of past lessons,drawing new futures out of imagination's pocket." Excerpt quotation from Dana Gerhard
The ninth house is the house of higher learning. It represents the point at which many thoughts are gathered
together and codified into one cause or principle. Thus laws and religions and philosophies are created, as well
as all sorts of principles, which in essence represent the thinking of many minds. If the third house is theindividual mind, the ninth house is the collective mind after it has been organized. Also associated with theninth are journeys to far off places and searches for new horizons, both physically and mentally.
Astrology was once a form of divination among some ancient cultures. It was part of the religion of for somewith priests who took part in the star heavens ministering. It is still intertwined in the Hindu religion.
9H is also the house of science according to some sources. There are new schools of thought that consider
Aquarius to be the sign of modern scientific invention, thus the 11H logic, one might assume which may
pertain to a modern schematic.

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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #178 - on: 22.08.2011 at 18:23 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 22.08.2011 at 15:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 15:02 [UT+1]:
You are an alias posing as a psuedonymn on some internet web site. Roger Beck is Emeritus Professor at the University
Toronto, an expert on the topic. Don't expect me to fall for arrogance.

I would argue that an expert on the subject is someone who actually uses astrology for clients and makes predictions with those methods.
I appreciate the work academics have done to provide the material, but Ben Dykes, Chris Warnock, and Lee Lehman have more expertisein the subject.

Ridiculous. You too are an alias posing as a pseudonymn lurking on a web site. Beck is a recognized scholar in
the field of ancient history. His inspection of astrology is absolutely first rate, but in any case far in excess of
your pretenses. One of the motives of the book was to assimilate the latest findings on the topic, publications
by scholars in the 1990's.
Your presumption is pure pomposity. He has the credentials, and you haven't even read the book. His Nemisis,
if he has one, would be bound to do no less.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #179 - on: 22.08.2011 at 18:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 22.08.2011 at 15:16 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:

If the 12 houses indicate all things under heaven, then it behooves a scholar (all astrologers should strive to be scholars)
to provide a principle, and thus a heading, for each house. Since all things must be considered when we consider houses,
no heading or principle can be perfectly expressive, but it is one of the advancements offered by some modern astrologers.

Why must it have a heading? Houses have more than one meaning. Maybe I'm not getting your point....

A principle. It ain't astrology if it ain't a principle. It might be a spurious observation, a whimsical insight, a
jot or tittle, but to be an astrological factor, it must be a principle. A cubby hole with wing nuts, dried fruit,and dueling pistols may be interesting, but it is an unfinished work that is of little use to students orgenerations to come. In short, it is not scholarship; it is not thoughtful.
The details can be subsumed under which meaning? Principles have been done before to the signs, to theplanets, to the points, etc.. It is to be expected in a thoughtful, purposeful and useful work.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #180 - on: 22.08.2011 at 19:55 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 16:20 [UT+1]:
What I actually only meant to do was double check what Stephen was saying cos it didn't seem right. I didn't expect that even in that he'dfind a way to wriggle in some more personal attacks. Seriously any more and I'm going to make an official complaint. I'm fed up of
posting on here and being insulted and name called. Nobody is doing that to Stephen so it's totally unjustified.

Posts: 1210
Gender:I agree Stephen is responding a much more heavy-handed way than is necessary. He is a bully, and is making
no constructive statements or even arguments.
I've deliberately watched my tone for some recent posts just to see what would happen. Stephen is the only
one who's consistently hostile. I don't care if we don't agree. I don't agree with some of the views in thefate/free will discussion, but you can't say I've attacked anyone.
I don't mind arguing, but I'm not going to fight or resort to Stephen's tactics. It's against my principles, and I
am above that.

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #181 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 22.08.2011 at 09:46 [UT+1]:
Quote from Horisont on 21.08.2011 at 23:10 [UT+1]:
yes, I'm in a bad mood, so I'll comment.
Squishy thinking comes from not having done the research. Now, Zappo, much like me in days of yore, deplores anenvironment he finds himself in, because he can see with clearer eyes than most that very few devotées at the shrine
have actually done much, if any, of the kinds of research he's talking about. This lack of knowledge and clarity, all thewhile rummaging about in Mary Poppin's magic carpetbag for answers to obvious questions gets on one's nerves.
I'm speaking for Z today, since I'm irritable. Ordinarily, I talk around people and ignore them, but all he's saying, albeit ina snarky and mostly unpleasant way is: read the books the discipline of astrology is founded upon, people, digest what you
read, and don't just come here and regurgitate the crap you read online by people who have dubious credentials at best.
Take some classes; become proficient at it.
In other words, take it seriously, instead of treating it the way it is treated far too often, as tabloid gossip fodder. He
sounds impassioned about his subject, because if you read between his lines, he has done a lot of research. Even if you
don't like the way someone says something, at the very least recognize the passion behind the words. That emotion isn't
there because the person is a dilettante; precisely the opposite is usually true.
Back to the Z-man, who is probably in a much better mood than am I.

...You don't know me or most of the other members here well enough to assume what anyone has or hasn't read or researched, or how
seriously anyone takes astrology so for you to state any of the above as fact the way you did was absolutely asinine as well as
extraordinarily disrespectful. You'll ultimately embarrass yourself a great deal less if you took the time to think before you type and only
spoke on people and things you actually know something about. It's rather unfortunate that I even have to explain this to you whenhonestly I'm pretty sure you're much older than I am and should already know better at your age.
And I'm sure right now you find Zappo perfectly charming but give it a few weeks, until you start noticing that he derails most of thethreads posted in this section of the boards, turning them all into modern vs traditional debates. Let's see how enthusiastic you are about
him when he does it to a thread you've started, or a thread on very specific subject matter that you're really interested in and want toknow more about...and then does it over and over and over again.
There's a difference between 'passion' and trolling, baiting and essentially trying to cyber-bully people in order to make them agree withyou and it's incredibly irresponsible of you to condone and encourage his behavior. No one is saying that he doesn't have a right to think
traditional is great. Plenty of astrologers here do and most don't have a problem with any of them. The problem is with him specificallybecause of the way he terrorizes and monopolizes the board. We heard him the first three billion times. Frankly if he cannot deal withastrologers who don't follow his own school of thought then as I said before, he shouldn't be here. This isn't the 'traditional-only boards' or
the 'traditional astrology vs modern astrology debate boards', it's the 'astrology' boards, period.
Next time you rush in to play Superman for someone you should make sure the person you're saving actually deserves the help.

Dren is not the only one to complain about Zappo. The gang of trads, especially Zappo, has done their fare
share of hostility. Zappo still looking for insults. Squishy thinking?
Trads, I fully expect you to cry foul because you are disagreed with and disapproved of.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #182 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:29 [UT+1] »I don't plan on running away. The attackers end up making themselves look like idiots, and I'm not against
helping them do it.
It's not much of a challenge though -- it's pretty easy. They do most of the work
themselves.

Heartless. That's what I am.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #183 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:31 [UT+1] »So yes indeed - astrology is to be found in the 9th house.

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #184 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:34 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 22.08.2011 at 20:25 [UT+1]:
the primary priciniple is a theory that is bound by law which follows the rule. measurement of the rule is obtained by adhering to the law
which is set by the principle.
the rule of the house is created by the law in which the principle is primary.
http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng02.htm#The_Houses

Posts: 1210
Gender:Your quote didn't make sense until I read the link. Kind of reminds me of al-Kindi.
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Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #185 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:49 [UT+1] »I have a question to all:this problem?

Is there a way to stop any hostility on both sides? Is there a way to solve

Stephen, if the 'gang of trads' would stop any further hostility and would communicate in a moderate, polite,
respectful and fact-bounded manner in the future - what would that mean for you? How would you see that?
Could this change something towards a more positive exchange of information between all of us?

Posts: 1042
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #186 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:53 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 22.08.2011 at 20:29 [UT+1]:
I don't plan on running away. The attackers end up making themselves look like idiots, and I'm not against helping them do it.

It's notmuch of a challenge though -- it's pretty easy. They do most of the work themselves.

Heartless. That's what I am.

The subject was not about running away. It was discussed to accuse me of foul behavior (they already have).
They called me a bigot because I disagreed. It is amazing that they pretend they have shown no hostility,
especially you Zappo.
There was a huge stink and uproar when I suggested (in agreement with CEO Carter and others) that inpractice, there was much less distinction between house and sign. Disagree if you must, but it was insisted thatwas 100% wrong always.
That is like claiming that one will never find a planet in sign describing circumstances. Actually, it happens all
the time.
In any case, disagreements are the norm in astrology.
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #187 - on: 22.08.2011 at 20:57 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 22.08.2011 at 20:49 [UT+1]:
I have a question to all: Is there a way to stop any hostility on both sides? Is there a way to solve this problem?
Stephen, if the 'gang of trads' would stop any further hostility and would communicate in a moderate, polite, respectful and fact-bounded
manner in the future - what would that mean for you? How would you see that? Could this change something towards a more positive
exchange of information between all of us?

I would prefer to reduce the hostilities, but I don't trust your group at all. I wouldn't believe any claim or any
promise. But trust is not required. This is a forum where disagreements are common.
I think we should realistically expect to continue to disagree; I would be happy but very surprised if the
opposite came true. We have very strong opinions on both side of the argument.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #188 - on: 22.08.2011 at 21:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 20:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 22.08.2011 at 20:49 [UT+1]:
I have a question to all: Is there a way to stop any hostility on both sides? Is there a way to solve thisproblem?
Stephen, if the 'gang of trads' would stop any further hostility and would communicate in a moderate, polite, respectful
and fact-bounded manner in the future - what would that mean for you? How would you see that? Could this change
something towards a more positive exchange of information between all of us?

Posts: 1042
Gender:I would prefer to reduce the hostilities, but I don't trust your group at all. I wouldn't believe any claim or any promise. But trust is not
required. This is a forum where disagreements are common.
I think we should realistically expect to continue to disagree; I would be happy but very surprised if the opposite came true. We have verystrong opinions on both side of the argument.

Believe me - I would prefer to reduce the hostilities too. I would even prefer to eliminate them totally.
I can only speak for myself and I can only be responsible for myself. I already made the promise to be anxious
not to start to attack, insult or injure anybody. Which does not mean, that I'm not allowed to defense myself,
when being attacked through others.
You're totally right - to expect disagreement is more than realistic. It's part of our human conversation culture.
And i agree that we do have strong opinions on both sides - but I'm sure that we also share strong opinions.
Maybe we just didn't give them any chance to break through yet?
I'm ready to try a new start to give us all a chance for a fruitful exchange.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #189 - on: 22.08.2011 at 23:16 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 14:35 [UT+1]:
Of course the Babylonians added the signs and gave us almanacs of past and future planetary positions, but the Greeks gave us natal
astrology (versus Babylonian omen astrology), AS/DS, MC/IC, 12 places (12 houses).

Continuing my shading in the grey with the above, I've done some digging. Indeed, as I suspected we do haveexamples of a form of natal astrology stretching from Babylonian times. Initially this is seen as a kind of 'natalomen' astrology. If such and such a planet is doing X, then Y will be the result. This isn't too far away from theinitial Greek form of natal astrology, albeit a little more crude and not as refined. My argument was never that
the Greeks did not codify it during the hellenistic period, but rather that they initiated natal astrology. It would
appear they did not.
These natal 'omens' can be traced at least as far back to the fifth century BC, and, most importantly, that thelater Greek/Hellenistic attributions of dignity and nature appear to be already present by this stage. Namelythat Venus is benevolant, Saturn signifies restrictions etc. The natal promise is then examined at key dates suchas at 40 years of age etc.
An example:
Calculated on the 29th April 410 BCE, cast for the 'son of Shuna-ushur, one of the Shuma-Iddina, descendantof Deke' has moon "below the horn of the Scorpion, Jupiter in Pisces, Venus in Taurus, Saturn in Cancer, Mars ingemini'. THe prediction accompanying this nativity was "Things will be good for you". It has been suggested
that the rationale for this prediction can be seen by the planetary dignities in which the malefics are weakened
and the benefics strengthened.
The text is fragmentary but goes on to define key moments later in the individual's life, much like wecommonly do for nativities today.
References as promised:
Sachs, Babylonian Horoscopes, p68.
Rochberg, The heavenly writing, p202-08
Campion, A history of western astrology, p82-85
As we know that the Greeks did not conquer Babylon until 332 BCE, these observations, and other similar natal
observations, scarce though they are, were independent of Greek influence, and that a practice was in place inancient Babylon which was already well on its way to approaching the complexity of the later Greek nativities.
(Stephen, I'm still awaiting your sources which claim that natal astrology did not exist until the Greeks. If you
take umbridge with any of the above, by all means address those concerns to Dr Nick Campion)

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*EarthMonkey*
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #190 - on: 22.08.2011 at 23:28 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 22.08.2011 at 14:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 22.08.2011 at 14:22 [UT+1]:
The forum rules are alread established by the site personel. Anyway, it has been established that the true motive of the
traditional (more or less) crowd (I'm happy to have a better term) are still to declare all those who disagree as bad andwrong, bigotted even.

[face...palm...]Seriously? What's been established is that he modern crowd stick to their guns and that the traditional crowd stick to their guns.

Posts: 762
Gender:What you gun-slingers don't seem to notice is that the majority of posters are able to comment on a chart or
topic without first pointing out how those that came before them are wrong. Why not just do your astrology or
make your point, and let the readers decide who is full of it?
If there was a forum spaghetti supper and we all brought our own sauce to share, most of us would be enjoying
the variety while a few would be in the midst of a food fight precipitated by obnoxious declarations that THEIR
sauce was finest. You see, most of us know that there are infinite ways to create a sauce, each is unique andpersonal, just like everyone's astrology. Nobody's usage and methodology are exactly like any others. Why suckall the life and fun out of it with senseless bickering?
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beyond the stars

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #191 - on: 22.08.2011 at 23:39 [UT+1] »I'm sure someone has thought of, if not mentioned, the obvious... the similarity to rutting rams? I always feelso sorry for those poor animals. They don't know any better, and they're hurting themselves, all for what? To
become alpha ram.

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Cause we all know, there's a lot at stake here in the Realm of Being Proved Right. I think there's a crown now,
isn't there? I know there's definitely a fez.

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melekusha
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #192 - on: 23.08.2011 at 01:04 [UT+1] »Quote from *Gia* on 22.08.2011 at 17:51 [UT+1]:
Quote from melekusha on 22.08.2011 at 16:57 [UT+1]:
guys how is 9 house rules astrology? is it because of the philosophical contest to it?

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exploration of the science? studies, ext?
im a beginner and would like to understand it better
thank you

The 9th House
by Dana Gerhard http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgninthhouse_e.htm"Whenever we reach a personal limit, after a divorce, a career gone bad, when life doesn’t turn out as we hoped it would, to the 9th house
we’ll go. We’ll take a trip. We’ll return to school. We’ll seek advice from a 9th house person—an astrologer, lawyer, or priest. We’ll pray
for God’s blessings. As we go through the outer 9th house motions, inwardly we’re reaching, stretching and struggling to acquire a newperspective on our world.
The 9th encourages our quest for meaning in life. But generally we don’t go there until life falls apart. Few of us retire gaily to our dens to
pen our personal philosophies. Something upends us and starts our questioning. There is an astrological connection between the 9th houseand crisis. The 9th follows the 8th house of death and dissolution. In the 8th the ground is razed, monsters crawl up from the basement,
our identities are stripped and laid bare. Something we’ve held onto dies. At such moments, we raise our eyes and seek a higher power’s
grace. We want to connect with something greater than ourselves. Would we look for the gods if our tummies were full and life wereconstantly joyful?
The 9th rules the literature of spirit, the metaphors, symbols and myths that bind a culture, its moral codes, its shared ideals and visions.
No other house speaks so eloquently of the dignity and intelligence of the human spirit. The 9th is a decidedly human house. What otherspecies builds temples and universities or courts of law? Perhaps what most distinguishes humankind from the animals is our capacity for
abstract thought. We look for underlying patterns, the overarching laws of Nature. We try to master our fates, predicting and planning forthe future—based on our experience of the past or what we can divine from portentous symbols. Animals live in the present. Throughlanguage and imagery, we humans travel in time, building on the foundations of past lessons, drawing new futures out of imagination's
pocket." Excerpt quotation from Dana Gerhard
The ninth house is the house of higher learning. It represents the point at which many thoughts are gathered together and codified into one
cause or principle. Thus laws and religions and philosophies are created, as well as all sorts of principles, which in essence represent thethinking of many minds. If the third house is the individual mind, the ninth house is the collective mind after it has been organized. Also
associated with the ninth are journeys to far off places and searches for new horizons, both physically and mentally.
Astrology was once a form of divination among some ancient cultures. It was part of the religion of for some with priests who took part in
the star heavens ministering. It is still intertwined in the Hindu religion.
9H is also the house of science according to some sources. There are new schools of thought that consider Aquarius to be the sign ofmodern scientific invention, thus the 11H logic, one might assume which may pertain to a modern schematic.

Thank you Gia Super Much
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beyond the stars

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #193 - on: 23.08.2011 at 04:30 [UT+1] »_Dren, if you're going purely on the "information" you believe post count conveys, you're missing a lot.
i should point out, no one "knows" anyone online. Good luck with that perception, if you honestly think it's
possible to know the real person from a purely online connection.

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Hieronimuss
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #194 - on: 23.08.2011 at 04:36 [UT+1] »Which part of the tree defines a tree? Bark (1st)? Fruit (2nd)? Leaves? (3rd)...Why not the Root (4th house).

m

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Lukiftian

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #195 - on: 23.08.2011 at 05:32 [UT+1] »H9Back to top

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #196 - on: 23.08.2011 at 09:13 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 09:05 [UT+1]:
the heading of this thread is actually misleading. houses do not rule anything, but the subject of astrology is resident of a particular house.

Houses can be said to rule everything in life, or, to put it another way, everything in life can be assigned ahouse.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #197 - on: 23.08.2011 at 09:28 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 09:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 23.08.2011 at 09:13 [UT+1]:

Houses can be said to rule everything in life

please explain what you actually are saying in a different way to prove your statement true.

I'm not about 'proving' my statement true. Perhaps I should turn that back on you. Please explain your earlier
comment in a different way to prove your statement true?
All things can be assigned a house in astrology. That's what I mean. Sometimes the natural rulerships ofplanets is best suited instead of course. Take siblings. Siblings are third. Divination: 9th. Servants and people
who work for you: 6th. Money: 2nd. Your appearance: 1st. etc etc
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #198 - on: 23.08.2011 at 09:54 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 09:45 [UT+1]:
rulership of houses are assigned to planets.
houses do not rule, the laws rule which are created from principles. houses are areas of delineation that segment the whole forindentification purposes. the laws that pertain to this are laid out and this rules the structure hence given. subject matter that is thenassigned to a particular area.
to say that a house rules astrology is misleading.

Oh rulerships of houses are definitely assigned to planets. But things themselves are ruled by houses andplanets. The ruler of the house informs us as to the nature and quality of the matter being investigated.
As an example say you were asking about finances. The second house rules finances. The planet that rules thesecond house will inform us as to the nature and quality of those finances.
Astrology, like all forms of divination, and like all subjects that stretch our mind toward higher learning and likeall belief systems can be attributed to the 9th house. Religion, astrology, law, science etc etc are all 9th housematter, and the 9th house rules them.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #199 - on: 23.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 10:21 [UT+1]:
rulerships of houses are definitely assigned to planets.
The second house rules financestwo sentences that are contrary. if the house is ruled by a planet, then it is the planetary rules, derived from principles which gives laws,that have president in such house. the house does not rule finances but the planet that resides in such house. to have a planet that is in
detriment in such house is giving a detrimental rule to such house. the house is a place of abode.

Changling it's not contradictory, this is what I'm saying.
THINGS are ruled by Houses.
Houses are ruled by Planets.
Therefore, by proxy, a planet will rule a thing, but that does not mean that a house will not also rule that thing.
A house will rule a thing, but the planet that rules that house will inform us about the nature of that thing.
So if you had a chart with Scorpio on the second house cusp and you were asking about finances how would
you discover information about them?
Well you would recognise that the second house rules finances.
This is what you would have to do first and foremost. The second rules finances. The second rules finances inabsolutely every single chart.
Now in this particular example Mars happens to rule the second house, so Mars in THIS chart will inform us
about the condition etc. of finances.
There is nothing contradictory about this. Houses rule things, planets, in turn, rule houses.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #200 - on: 23.08.2011 at 11:48 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1]:
with logic like this, i can deduce that a table is a horse because they both have four legs.
as the AS is the founding point of the house system, what does the AS rule?

Nothing illogical about it Changling. I'm not sure what is tripping you up on it.
It's just like a hierarchy:
Things are ruled by houses, houses are ruled by planets. It's like sub-categorisation.

As for the ascendant, it rules the individual's body, appearance and life force.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #201 - on: 23.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 11:58 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 23.08.2011 at 11:48 [UT+1]:
As for the ascendant, it rules the individual's body, appearance and life force.
maybe i need to contemplate deeper upon this.
if the AC rules body, appearance and life force, then everybody that has the exact degree of AC, without any aspecting modifying it, thenthese individuals should all look alike. interesting concept, dont you think?
thanking you for the responce, i'll need some coffee now.

Bare in mind that everybody will still be different, because A) astrology only tells us so much about a person,
genetics and environment need taking into consideration too, and, B) the Lord of the ascendant, its ruler, will
also tell us about appearance and that will be placed somewehre, casting aspects, and it too will be dispositedby another planet etc etc.
But basically the first house deals with appearance, we can say it 'rules' appearance and life force.
So houses rule areas of life, but to inform us about the detail of those areas of life we can look to the planets
which rule those houses and examine what they're doing in the chart.
As a typical example from, just to use it as an example, horary, in questions pertaining to illness we often lookto the 6th house, as the 6th house rules illnesses (amongst other things). In particular the ruler of the 6th will
inform us about the illness itself.
In contrast the ruler of the first house (and the first house more generally) will tell us about the querent's life
force.
It's not uncommon to judge such charts by examining the relationship between Lord 1 and Lord 6 - if Lord 1 isstronger than Lord 6 the querent would easily shake off the illness. If Lord 1 is weaker than L6 or receives L6,then the illness will be harder to shake off and may be more damaging to the querent.
So although the 6th house rules illness, the Lord of the 6th house acts as a signifier for that illness.
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Stephen Baxter
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #202 - on: 23.08.2011 at 14:14 [UT+1] »The Babylonians used 8o and 10o Aries as the start of the zodiac, but the Greeks promoted 0o Aries.
The Greeks discovered the "centers", AS/DS, MC/IC by using both time and geography to calculate, thus
pinpointing individuality and the places [the houses]. Anything before that could not be rightly called natal
astrology. The Babylonians were primarily concerned with the fate of the leader and by association the nationand did not use the individuation factors before the Greeks.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #203 - on: 23.08.2011 at 14:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 23.08.2011 at 14:14 [UT+1]:
The Babylonians used 8o and 10o Aries as the start of the zodiac, but the Greeks promoted 0o Aries.
The Greeks discovered the "centers", AS/DS, MC/IC by using both time and geography to calculate, thus pinpointing individuality and theplaces [the houses]. Anything before that could not be rightly called natal astrology. The Babylonians were primarily concerned with thefate of the leader and by association the nation and did not use the individuation factors before the Greeks.

I don't doubt that their natal astrology was not the later greek adaption, that much is obivous, all I'msuggesting is that hte idea that the Greeks 'gave us' natal astrology is misleading. They inherited it from theBabylonians and adapted it and improved upon it. But the Babylonians gave them a working natal astrology totamper with (albeit without the angles and houses).
If you look back to my reference you will see that they did indeed use it for individuals, though, no doubt, only
for very imoprtant individuals, perhaps even their leaders, but that is besides the point, the point is that they
had a form of natal astrology and that this form of natal astrology, almost certainly including the dignities, wasinherited by the Greeks who then later adapted it.
We know that the ascendant etc. were Greek additions and therefore the form of natal astrology that most of
us are familiar with owe a great deal to the Greek additions, but the point I was making was that the Greeks inturn developed this from a pre-existing Babylonian natal astrology.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #204 - on: 23.08.2011 at 15:44 [UT+1] »Here's what I found in "A History of Horoscopic Astrology" from James H. Holden, page 5:
Quote:At the same time between the 7th and 5th (or perhaps as late as the 4th) century the Babylonians developed the concept of natal
astrology. It consisted of determining the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets in the zodiac on the date of birth, perhaps noting the
conjunction of one of the moving bodies with one of the normal stars. There is no trace of rising sign, midheaven, or celestial houses. It isreasonable to suppose that natal astrology was first made available to the king and his family, then to other courtiers, and later to rich orimportnat persons of the city - in other words, to the elite.

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Jogi64

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #205 - on: 23.08.2011 at 16:00 [UT+1] »On page 9 Holden adds:
Quote:In its latest period Babylonian astrology developed a rudimentary natal astrology based on planetary positions in the signs and conjunctionsof the planets with the normal stars. [..] Babylonian "horoscopes" were based solely on the day, month and year of birth. No account was
taken ot the time of day, although it was occasionally reported.

Posts: 1042
Gender:Maybe these Babylonian horoscopes are called 'natal', but in fact it were the Greeks who created a true natal
astrology and who made natal astrology individually and unique to the native.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #206 - on: 23.08.2011 at 16:04 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 23.08.2011 at 16:00 [UT+1]:
On page 9 Holden adds:
Quote:In its latest period Babylonian astrology developed a rudimentary natal astrology based on planetary positions in the signs
and conjunctions of the planets with the normal stars. [..] Babylonian "horoscopes" were based solely on the day, monthand year of birth. No account was taken ot the time of day, although it was occasionally reported.

Maybe these Babylonian horoscopes are called 'natal', but in fact it were the Greeks who made natal astrology individually and unique tothe native.

There would be no need to take note of the time, what would one do with it?
It wasn't until the Greeks that we became more precise and used the time to divide up the sky via the MC andAscendant etc.
Anyway I think it's clear that the idea of the Greeks 'giving' us natal astrology is a little misleading. Certainly
they codified it into, pretty much, what we still use today, but they were adapting a pre-existing system.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #207 - on: 23.08.2011 at 20:09 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 19:26 [UT+1]:
i apologize for my obstinance, it is either the AC that rules appearance, or the Lord of the AC.

WHy one or the other? Both affect appearance. The ascendant rules appearance. The lord of the ascendant tells
us information about the appearance. So the LORD of the house, is the master of that house and has dominion
over it. To find out about what the house signifies we examine what it's lord is doing and who it is interactingwith. This is all basic astrology, it is not modern or traditional. It is just basic astrology.
Quote:
there must be an applying force that effects this "thing" which can be measured.

Good luck measuring anything in astrology.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #208 - on: 23.08.2011 at 21:39 [UT+1] »Hi chang*ling,
Quote:
the heading of this thread is actually misleading. houses do not rule anything, but the subject of astrology is resident of a particular house.

I'm not totally aware of all the inherent meanings of the word 'to rule' but my dictionary also gives me
expressions like 'to set', 'to determine' or 'to stipulate' etc.

Posts: 1042
Gender:It seems really common to say that houses 'rule' certain things, persons, experiences, and so on. We can findthis in Alan Leo when he says that "the Ascendant rules the personal appearance and to a considerable extent
also the health, mind, and disposition". He also speaks about a house to 'govern' certain issues.
CEO Carter also uses the word 'to rule' when describing the houses (amongst other expressions like to denote,
to signify, to show, to come under etc.).
Another example is Kris Brandt Riske who writes: "The twelve houses are where the action is. They rule every
possible area of life, including money, career, relationship, travel, and education." There are lots of otherexample authors who use the word 'rule' in connection with the houses.
All of those authors also speak of a planet ruling a certain house via its rulership over the sign on the cusp ofthat house.
Jogi

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #209 - on: 23.08.2011 at 22:40 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 23.08.2011 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
one cannot have too differing rulers. it is contrary. could one imagine if the US uses a different length for centimetresthan the french? the measurements of these two rulers would not correlate.

I don't understand why you're struggling with this.
Let me try and clarify it (some more). Ignore astrology for a second. The Mayor's office has a number ofparticular administrative duties. Those duties are ruled by the Mayor's Office. The Mayor himself of course is theruler of the Mayor's office and carries out those duties and sees to them that they are done.
Similarly a house (the mayor's office) rules a particular set of things (particular adminsitrative duties) but the
Lord of that House (the Mayor himself) carries it out.
Let's try another.
A Lord was someone who owns a degree of property and land called an estate. The estate had to do several
things, including be taxed and so on. Some particular estates paid taxes in gold, others in wheat. Let's imagine
that your the estate of wheat, wheat is ruled by your estate. So we can say that your estate rules wheat. The
Lord of that estate sees to it that the runnings and operations of the estate are seen to.
So we have an estate (a house) and a lord of that estate (lord of hte house).
So it is with astrology. There is nothing contrary here. Perhaps these analogies will help in your understanding.
"try and find one mention on this link where it says the house rules anything. "Wikipedia probably isn't a great example. It's full of inaccuracies. I've already fixed their articles on accidental
and essential dignity as the articles were confusing one for the other and even then getting it wrong.
As for the reference to being a native speaker, if you recognise that in the real world, in feudal times, there
were estates, houses etc and that these houses had masters, called Lords, you will understand the usage as we
use it today. It implies the same thing. Certain administrative duties might fall to a particular estate (certain
things are ruled by houses) but the Lords of those estates (the lord of the house) sees to it that those things
are done and carries them out.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #210 - on: 24.08.2011 at 01:54 [UT+1] »I actually use the word "signify" when it comes to houses. I admit I slip sometimes though.

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Hieronimuss

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #211 - on: 24.08.2011 at 04:35 [UT+1] »Doesn't the "search for meaning of things" 9H and the actual "thing" support duality? This can easily give
astrology a separationist role. Astrology ideally makes you take control of your all levels of your being and evennon-being, not just observe, meditate and reflect on it's meaning. Astrology should be at the spring of life,
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Gender:which for me is the 4th house, the source ("past") incorporated into pretty much all the houses.
Much Love!

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Jogi64
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #212 - on: 24.08.2011 at 08:22 [UT+1] »Hi chang*ling,
Quote:
it is apparent that some people are not paying attention when studying traditional astrology and its creation.

I'm nor sure what you mean with this?
Quote:
Posts: 1042
Gender:try and find one mention on this link where it says the house rules anything.

You're right - I can't find it in this article. But I can find it in many other English astrology books.
I guess I know what your concern may be or what bothers you. But I also guess that this could be a problem
especially with the English language or how certain words a used/misused. I can't remember any German
source or author that speaks about the houses "ruling" topics/affairs. Instead you will find many otherexpressions e.g. to denote, to signify, to mean, to symbolize, to give information on/to inform about, to show,
to bear upon, to point to, and so on. There's no reference that the houses themselves 'rule' something in thesense of dominate, govern, control or command. They host and contain things and experiences - they may becompared to a 'jar' or 'container' for them. This is what I have in my mind when reading English authors - evenwhen they say that a house 'rules' certain things.
In an individual chart I consider a planet in a house as determined to the affairs of this house and I consider
the domicile ruler of the sign on the house cusp as the ruler of this house. I consider this ruler as a manager
who is in charge of the house affairs.
Jogi

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #213 - on: 24.08.2011 at 09:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 08:22 [UT+1]:
Hi chang*ling,
Quote:
it is apparent that some people are not paying attention when studying traditional astrology and its creation.
I'm nor sure what you mean with this?
Quote:
try and find one mention on this link where it says the house rules anything.
You're right - I can't find it in this article. But I can find it in many other English astrology books.
I guess I know what your concern may be or what bothers you. But I also guess that this could be a problem especially with the English
language or how certain words a used/misused. I can't remember any German source or author that speaks about the houses "ruling"
topics/affairs. Instead you will find many other expressions e.g. to denote, to signify, to mean, to symbolize, to give information on/to
inform about, to show, to bear upon, to point to, and so on. There's no reference that the houses themselves 'rule' something in the senseof dominate, govern, control or command. They host and contain things and experiences - they may be compared to a 'jar' or 'container'
for them. This is what I have in my mind when reading English authors - even when they say that a house 'rules' certain things.
In an individual chart I consider a planet in a house as determined to the affairs of this house and I consider the domicile ruler of the signon the house cusp as the ruler of this house. I consider this ruler as a manager who is in charge of the house affairs.
Jogi

We need to just try and take the meaning from this, not examine the usage of the words involved. They arearbitrary. These things have all been translated from other languages anyway.
I like Jogi's idea of a 'container' analogy. Regardless of what words we use, the idea behind them is the sameand that's what we should be trying to understand. Perhaps 'rule' isn't strictly to be ultra exact the correct
terminology, but we all know what is meant by it. Being practical about it we have a relatinoship between
finances etc. and the second house. Use whatever words suits you best to describe that relationshp: rules,
signifies, etc. It doesn't matter overly, what matters is that when you want to find where finacnes are in thechart that you know to look to the second house, and then its ruler.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #214 - on: 24.08.2011 at 10:16 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 09:54 [UT+1]:
words are not arbitary when dealing with matters of science. they have a syntax that leads the mind to the next logical step.
logos is a structured use of language that begins with a prime and everything that is created in the mind is part of this structure. if one
entertains corruption either by fault or design then the mind is lost in illusions. astrology is part of this structure.
an example of principle is the constitution of the US. if not followed correctly to every rule, then the US does not function as it was set
out to do.
peace. i need coffee.

But we're not dealing with science, and we're not dealing with the original language. If we were discussing law
or science we would be more strict with our terms and they would have been codified and set in stone - thishasn't happened for astrology. It would be like disagreeing with me that Cancer is a cardinal sign, insisting
instead that it is a moveable sign, or that Virgo is not a mutable sign it is a humane sign.
We're working witha subject that spans multiple cultures and languages, we do not have one particular strict
definition of a word.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #215 - on: 24.08.2011 at 10:36 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 10:22 [UT+1]:
if you cannot see the uses of symbology as the source of language then the source of astrology has lost its root.
i refer you to geomancy as one of the prime sources of this science, but all of this will lose the meaning behind my original contention,
the heading of this thread being misleading, in the first instanceOkay well take it or leave it then. Seems you're being deliberately tunnel visioned about this. I'm not interested
in argumetns over semantics.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #216 - on: 24.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 10:42 [UT+1]:
dear paul, your mention of cardinal signs and the other uses of the word cardinal in the english language are not by accident. the wordmutable, also aplied to modality is another example of the exacting syntax applied, which is transferrable to other instances of use within
the language.
plutocrasy, has it very root in the understanding of principles pertaining towards the planet pluto.

Actually the point I was making was that the same thing can be called different things: Cancer, Capricorn, Aries
and Libra are all, according to some, Cardinal Signs. According to others, they are Moveable signs. The
etymology of one relates to a hinge, the etymology of the other does not.
Virgo, Gemini, Sag and Pisces are called by some Mutable signs, meaning to adapt or mutate. By others they
are called humane signs.
The two terms are often distinct, yet the same meaning is implied.
But anyway, use whatever words and syntax you want, it doesn't matter to me. If you'd prefer to ignore theseastrological associations because you can't get the etymology to gel in your head then that's a shame but
totally your prerogative.
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Dren_

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #217 - on: 24.08.2011 at 11:15 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 10:22 [UT+1]:
if you cannot see the uses of symbology as the source of language then the source of astrology
has lost its root.
i refer you to geomancy as one of the prime sources of this science, but all of this will lose the meaning behind my original contention,
the heading of this thread being misleading, in the first instanceNot really. Astrology and symbology are two completely separate entities.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #218 - on: 24.08.2011 at 11:43 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 11:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 24.08.2011 at 11:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 10:22 [UT+1]:

if you cannot see the uses of symbology as the source of language then thesource of astrology has lost its root.
i refer you to geomancy as one of the prime sources of this science, but all of this will lose the meaning
behind my original contention, the heading of this thread being misleading, in the first instanceNot really. Astrology and symbology are two completely separate entities.

the archetecture of the universe gives rise to archetypes. im not here to give understandings to deeper philosophical debate, this is anastrological board and the question of which house "rules" astrology.

For you.
Not everyone sees astrology and symbology as one and the same - or as at least interwined or reliant on one
another. [i]You[/i] do because it's a part of your religious/spiritual/esoteric/metaphysical practices (Michael
Tsarion, eh?), but not everyone does. And I think that's the problem here.
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Dren_

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #219 - on: 24.08.2011 at 12:15 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 12:02 [UT+1]:
i am convinced people are wantingly blinded by their own design. glyphs are used throughout astrology, and even within these, theology ispresented. an example of the north node symbol is not unlike the greek letter omega, but here i might be stretching the imagination.

...Or maybe you're blinded by your own. Did you seriously just try to correct someone's astrology because itgoes against the tenets of your religion? Or were you intentionally trying to recruit them or 'teach' them yourfaith under false pretenses?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #220 - on: 24.08.2011 at 12:41 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 12:38 [UT+1]:
pppfffffff.
i am asking people to think. i do not need followers and would rather them take responsibilty for what they choose to believe. i am notthe cause of this confusion. i may be fallible and in many cases have proved to been so. i am also able to correct my thinking if a logicalrebuttal is given.
if i see crosses in many of the glyphs, then i do not deny that they exist. i question further and find logical explanations of why the glyphs
are represented as such.
the path of venus over an eight year period transverses space in an pentagram. this is symbology and it is up to the enquirer of what thisrepresents in the realm of mind. i could expound upon many differing symbols that arise in astrology and its workings but that would take
scripts that are lengthy and boring. the imagery of the word boring, is analogous to creating a headache and of deep exploration within theearths crust. both are valid, and i find these accusations of yours based upon a fear of not having strength to keep within your own
counsel.

Yes that's nice. But why are we talking about glyphs? THIs is about astrological houses and their rulership andwhether we can assign astrology to a house and if so to which one. All the other stuff, interesting though it
may be, is not relevant to that discussion. You feigned confusion over the house/rulership idea, hopefully we
can move on from this now. At least the explanation is there for anyone who genuinely did not understand it.
Moving on.
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Yukionna

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #221 - on: 24.08.2011 at 14:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 08:22 [UT+1]:
In an individual chart I consider a planet in a house as determined to the affairs of this house and I consider the domicile ruler of the signon the house cusp as the ruler of this house. I consider this ruler as a manager who is in charge of the house affairs.

Hi Jogi,
we might have talked about this before, I have a vague recollection, but I'm not sure.
Posts: 1690

Zoller says 'position is stronger than rulership', and: 'a planet in the house is going to dominate the affairs of
the house'. That contradicts the above underlined, doesn't it?
Yuki

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #222 - on: 24.08.2011 at 14:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 24.08.2011 at 14:50 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 08:22 [UT+1]:
In an individual chart I consider a planet in a house as determined to the affairs of this house and I consider the domicile
ruler of the sign on the house cusp as the ruler of this house. I consider this ruler as a manager who is in charge of thehouse affairs.

Hi Jogi,
we might have talked about this before, I have a vague recollection, but I'm not sure.
Zoller says 'position is stronger than rulership', and: 'a planet in the house is going to dominate the affairs of the house'. That contradicts
the above underlined, doesn't it?
Yuki

It may depend on which branch of astrology we're referring to and how it is used. Certainly, to use theexample, in horary, the ruler of the house is the most pressing. Where it's positioned is important, but issecondary to that.
When he says 'position is stronger than rulership', this is sort of vague and leaves a lot to interpretation. For
example does he mean that accidental dignity weighs more than essential dignity? Or does he mean a planet ina house will colour that house more so than the ruler of that house? The qutoe by itself out of context doesn't
elaborate. Any ideas?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #223 - on: 24.08.2011 at 14:59 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 13:03 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 11:28 [UT+1]:
the question of which house "rules" astrology is being debated.
dear paul, although i conceded to end my debate with this phrase ,i believe we should agree to disagree upon the matter of whether or not
the house has rules inherent or are applied by other factors excerting influence.
moving on.

At this point it seems you have some other ulterior motive for the discussion rather than astrologicalunderstanding, so I shall just leave you to it. My interest here begins and ends with the astrology of it.
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Yukionna
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #224 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:13 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 24.08.2011 at 14:59 [UT+1]:
for example does he mean that accidental dignity weighs more than essential dignity? Or does he mean a planet in a house will colour thathouse more so than the ruler of that house? The qutoe by itself out of context doesn't elaborate. Any ideas?

He means the latter, and he refers to natal astrology.
I have little experience in the practical application of all the rules, so I'm never quite sure. He does say that the
Posts: 1690

ruler is important also and by its position links the house it is in with the house it rules.
In your experience, what tells us more about the affairs of the house? The planet in the house, or the planet
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #225 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:17 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 24.08.2011 at 15:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 24.08.2011 at 14:59 [UT+1]:
for example does he mean that accidental dignity weighs more than essential dignity? Or does he mean a planet in ahouse will colour that house more so than the ruler of that house? The qutoe by itself out of context doesn't elaborate. Any
ideas?

He means the latter, and he refers to natal astrology.
I have little experience in the practical application of all the rules, so I'm never quite sure. He does say that the ruler is important also
and by its position links the house it is in with the house it rules.
In your experience, what tells us more about the affairs of the house? The planet in the house, or the planet ruling it? (of course
sometimes the ruler is in it, so that's easy then)I think both are important. The planet that rules it is kind of like a foundational building block about how thethings that the house defines is expressed, but planets IN the house also shape and colour it. In natal I'm notsure which way I'd weigh it up tbh.
In horary definitely the planet that rules the house is the most important, but planets in the house are also
very important and should never be ignored.
Tbh, I think ultimately I wouldn't like to see it in terms of "this is more important than that". It kind of
depends on the situation and the chart.

I kind of see it like this: The planet that rules the house is the significator for that house. The planets in thehouse affect the signification of that house.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #226 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:28 [UT+1] »I don't think it's a contradiction. The house ruler is sort of the manager of the house. However if another planet
is in the house itself, it will dominate more since it's actually present.
An analogy I used once is if you own a home, you call the shots. You control what furniture you have,
Posts: 1210
Gender:appearance, whatever.
If you're gone, and your best friend Buck is staying over, and they decide to move out all of your furniture andreplace it with Ikea, then Id say Buck is influencing your home more than you are at the moment. Heck you're
not even there to yell at him!

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #227 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 24.08.2011 at 15:28 [UT+1]:
I don't think it's a contradiction. The house ruler is sort of the manager of the house. However if another planet is in the house itself, it
will dominate more since it's actually present.
An analogy I used once is if you own a home, you call the shots. You control what furniture you have, appearance, whatever.
If you're gone, and your best friend Buck is staying over, and they decide to move out all of your furniture and replace it with Ikea, thenId say Buck is influencing your home more than you are at the moment. Heck you're not even there to yell at him!

remember that he's still disposited by the ruler though. So the ruler of the house is always in a very powerful
position.
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Yukionna
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #228 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:37 [UT+1] »So let's say there is an essentially strong planet in the house of ancestors (4), and the ruler is essentially weak,and not in the house. But maybe accidentally strong, so definitely an influence.
Not taking anything else into consideration such as reception, aspects, the other rulers and all that..what would
the familylife have been like?
(I know it's a simplification, so maybe not usable..)Posts: 1690

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #229 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:41 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 24.08.2011 at 15:37 [UT+1]:
So let's say there is an essentially strong planet in the house of ancestors (4), and the ruler is essentially weak, and not in the house. But
maybe accidentally strong, so definitely an influence.
Not taking anything else into consideration such as reception, aspects, the other rulers and all that..what would the familylife have been
like?
(I know it's a simplification, so maybe not usable..)I hate dealing with natal astrology and making sketchy comments, just because things could mean so mucheither way.
let's take a simpler example. You are asking about money. Lord 2 is Jupiter exalted and angular. Your attitude
to finances is good and perhaps you even are wealthy. But mars is in your second house. Some malefic
influence damages your money.
(ridiculously simplistic obviously)
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #230 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:43 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 15:34 [UT+1]:
if a person has the sign Aries on the cusp of their 7th house, then the planet Mars is said to "rule" their 7th house. This means that when aplanet is allotted a house, its nature comes to have some bearing on that specific topic in the person's life, and that planet is said to bevery important for events specifically pertaining to that topic. The placement of this planet in the chart will have at least as muchinfluence on the chart as the planets within the house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_%28astrology%29#Rulership

Changling, if you could not quote from unsourced wiki pages that would probably help illuminate more on thesubject. As it is, anyone could write anythign into the wiki pages, it is certainly no ttaken to be an authority,especially when unsourced and unreferenced.
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Yukionna

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #231 - on: 24.08.2011 at 15:49 [UT+1] »Well, I guess what it comes down to is that we always have to weigh and take all things into consideration.
That's what makes it so difficult, at least in the beginning. Maybe I was hoping for a shortcut. That's not goingto happen. Thanks guys..I'll go back to work now

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #232 - on: 24.08.2011 at 16:01 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 24.08.2011 at 15:33 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 24.08.2011 at 15:28 [UT+1]:
I don't think it's a contradiction. The house ruler is sort of the manager of the house. However if another planet is in thehouse itself, it will dominate more since it's actually present.

Posts: 1210
Gender:An analogy I used once is if you own a home, you call the shots. You control what furniture you have, appearance,
whatever.
If you're gone, and your best friend Buck is staying over, and they decide to move out all of your furniture and replace itwith Ikea, then Id say Buck is influencing your home more than you are at the moment. Heck you're not even there to yellat him!

remember that he's still disposited by the ruler though. So the ruler of the house is always in a very powerful position.

Of course. It's not an either/or thing. The idea here is that a planet present in a house will have a more
immediate effect than the ruler if not present. The ruling planet still signifies the matter.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #233 - on: 24.08.2011 at 16:10 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 16:07 [UT+1]:
if astrology is a given and therefor is not influenced by accidental rulers as such but by a natural ruler, then it would make sense to look
for the ruling planet and work in reverse.

Sorry, work in reverse? Let's imagine we discover (you don't claim how to discover it, but anyway) and we
discover that it is Mercury. How do we work in reverse?

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #234 - on: 24.08.2011 at 17:03 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 16:59 [UT+1]:
say astrology is found in the 9th house, and the house cusp is found in aries and a resident planet , the moon is found in this house as
well, does this mean astrology is ruled by mars influenced by the moon? no i dont think so. this is the personal application of astrology
pertaining to the charted individual. not astrology as a whole. the whole subject of deciding which ruler is paramount in finding somethingthat is acceptable by anybody that uses astrology as a device for divination purposes. again i will mention principles as it gives laws andrules which can be followed by all practising astrologists.

Sorry you're misunderstanding. We're not looking for astrology in an individual person's chart. We're looking
for astrology's general assignation, not it's specific one.
Therefore we'll never find a sign on a house cusp in any kind of general way.
Finances for example are signified by the second house. End of story. EVERYONE'S second house.
Finances will not suddenly be assigned to Mars, because you happen to have Aries on your second house cusp,
when Jimmy down the road will have Gemini on his, and Susan will have Cancer on hers.
Now Mars will rule YOUR finances, and Mercury will rule Jimmy's and Moon will rule susan's, but what we'relooking for here is the house that astrology is assigned, much in teh same way that finances are assigned thesecond.
I'm beginning to wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse tbh, or are you simply not getting what it is we're
hoping to look for?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #235 - on: 24.08.2011 at 17:22 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 17:15 [UT+1]:
if every house has a house ruler, from this we can deduct that the ruler of the house has influence upon the subject, in this case,astrology. this means that astrology is ruled by a planet. if this is so, then looking for the planet that rules astrology would inturn indicate
by fault the house it would be placed.
i maybe obtuse but that is my mercury combust with transiting mercury retro.

Seriously? Are you really not getting this?
Every house has a house ruler in a given chart. But on a general level there are no house rulers. Just houses
and planets, that's cos on a general level we cannot assign a sign to the house cusp.
Follow that so far?
YOu keep relating it to an actual natal chart. That doesn't help us.
We need to find a house to assign astrology GENERALLY to, not a house to assign it to in a given chart.
Again the second house rules astrology in EVERYONE's chart. Not just yours. Astrology will rule a chart in
EVERYONE'S chart, not just yours. Therefore we do not have signs on cusps for there to be planets, as in orderfor there to be a sign, we need to personalise it by a given time and location.
I don't know how else to explain this. It's actually very very simple which is why I wondered if you're truly notactually grasping these simple points or if you're being deliberately obtuse. I've been giving you the benefit ofthe doubt so far.
If you still dont' grasp it then just trust me. You can't figure it out that way because it defies logic at every
single turn.
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Jogi64

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #236 - on: 24.08.2011 at 17:27 [UT+1] »Hi Yuki,
if find the statement that position is "stronger" than rulership a bit misleading. I think Zoller does not compare
this "strength" with the strength that is given through essential or accidantial dignities.
As Enlil says a planet in the house will have a more immediate effect on the house matters. It's influence ismore direct, distinct or notable.
For this you can also check DMA lesson 6, page 37 et seq. and DMA lesson 8, page 16 and 17.
Posts: 1042
Gender:

Jogi

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #237 - on: 24.08.2011 at 17:34 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 24.08.2011 at 17:22 [UT+1]:
Again the second house rules astrology in EVERYONE's chart.

Guess you meant the 9th house

Or, the second rules - signifies - financial affairs?

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #238 - on: 24.08.2011 at 18:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 17:34 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 24.08.2011 at 17:22 [UT+1]:
Again the second house rules astrology in EVERYONE's chart.
Guess you meant the 9th house

Or, the second rules - signifies - financial affairs?

Sorry ye, I meant finances!
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Jogi64

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #239 - on: 24.08.2011 at 18:35 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 18:23 [UT+1]:
just to show i follow you, here you state that a house on a general level has no ruler. the very point i was making when i questioned theheading of this thread.
the crux is, no ruler ,no rules, therefor a house on its own, does not rule a thing.

I'm sure everyone knows what you mean; everyone knows what Paul means; and everyone knows what itmeans when an astrologers speaks about houses 'ruling' certain things - he means that houses signify certain
things, that houses are a reservoir/a melting pot/a collecting tank etc. for certain things.
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Gender:I think we all can allow ourselves to relax, and to have a nice cup of coffee or a cold beer

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #240 - on: 24.08.2011 at 19:10 [UT+1] »Actually a frequent subject discussed in traditional circles is terminology.
In one of Ben Dykes' translations - Masha'allah's Book of Aristotle, he brings this up.

Posts: 1210
Gender:As many of us know, many stock astrological terms such as "angle", "rulership", "exaltation", and so on are
based on Latin words. The logic of why these words were chosen are primary based on various translations ofArabic books - many Arabic books are translations or excerpts of Greek books.
It turns out most Arabic translations of Greek terms were extremely literal, and those literal translations don'tnecessarily look like the words we would use today.
During the Latin translation cycle, by far the most popular were the books translated by John of Spain. His style
was very easy to read and clear. His choice of terminology is what stuck since his books were the most widely
circulated.
However he wasn't the only one. Masha'allah's Book of Aristotle was translated by Hugo of Santalla. His style
was a bit more cumbersome, so his books weren't as widely circulated. As a result, we only have two known
copies of Book of Aristotle. This "accident" of history means a couple of things:
1. Book of Aristotle represents the earlier Persian style of astrology which is very heavily based on Greek
astrology. More so than most books/writers that became popular in Europe like Abu Mashar, al-Kindi, and Abu
Ali-Khayyat. What became popular was "house-based" readings similar to horary, and pretty much what modern
astrology uses as well. The Greek style uses house rulers a bit less, and natural planetary significators andArabic Parts more.
2. This affected the terminology we use. If Hugo's translations happened to be more popular, we'd probably callmany astrological concepts different things.
Let me state that is isn't right or wrong, it just is. A lot of this has quite a bit to do with which books happened
to be popular and which didn't, and much of that has to do with who translated what.
Here are some examples from Hugo's translation:
significators are called leadersangles are called hinges or pivots
A planet being in a sign is called traversing or lingering
exaltations are called kingdoms or supremacy
domicile rulership is called a lodging place

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Yukionna

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #241 - on: 24.08.2011 at 19:15 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 17:27 [UT+1]:
For this you can also check DMA lesson 6, page 37 et seq. and DMA lesson 8, page 16 and 17.

I checked it, and it is this part that caused the 'trouble', where he talks about a chart with the 7th in Leo, andMercury and Jupiter in the house:
Posts: 1690

Now if we look at the native's 7th house we find 2 planets in the house. We find Leo on the cusp, we findMercury closest to the cusp of the house. Mercury, being closer to the cusp of the house and in the house, isthe most important planet there and dominates the native's relationships with other people, dominates his
businessrelationships and dominates his personel partnerships. Mercury is more important than the Sun or
Jupiter in determining the significations of the native's 7th house.
On the other hand he says again and again:
the good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
I'm rather tired though. I should probably call it a day, have that beer, relax and think it over tomorrow.
I'll go watch the Sopranos. Now there's a guy with essentiell dignity and debility all at once. And it doesn't domuch good for the affairs of his house
Yuki

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #242 - on: 24.08.2011 at 19:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 24.08.2011 at 19:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 17:27 [UT+1]:
For this you can also check DMA lesson 6, page 37 et seq. and DMA lesson 8, page 16 and 17.

Posts: 1210
Gender:I checked it, and it is this part that caused the 'trouble', where he talks about a chart with the 7th in Leo, and Mercury and Jupiter in thehouse:
Now if we look at the native's 7th house we find 2 planets in the house. We find Leo on the cusp, we find Mercury closest to the cusp of
the house. Mercury, being closer to the cusp of the house and in the house, is the most important planet there and dominates the native's
relationships with other people, dominates his businessrelationships and dominates his personel partnerships. Mercury is more important
than the Sun or Jupiter in determining the significations of the native's 7th house.
On the other hand he says again and again:
the good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
I'm rather tired though. I should probably call it a day, have that beer, relax and think it over tomorrow.
I'll go watch the Sopranos. Now there's a guy with essentiell dignity and debility all at once. And it doesn't do much good for the affairs of
his house
Yuki

Zoller isn't known for his clarity. I take it that the house ruler is the significator and gives the general conditionof the affairs of the house, but the planet(s) in the house itself have a more immediate effect. If the Sun rules
the 7th, the Sun still calls the shots. If Mercury is near the cusp, Mercury is going to seem more prominent.
This also works backwards. If Mercury is in the 7th, he is determined toward relationships, and whatever houses
he rules happens through relationships.
I think a better statement from him would have been "position is more immediate than rulership".
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #243 - on: 24.08.2011 at 20:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 24.08.2011 at 19:24 [UT+1]:
Quote from Yukionna on 24.08.2011 at 19:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 17:27 [UT+1]:
For this you can also check DMA lesson 6, page 37 et seq. and DMA lesson 8, page 16 and 17.

I checked it, and it is this part that caused the 'trouble', where he talks about a chart with the 7th in Leo, and Mercury and
Jupiter in the house:
Now if we look at the native's 7th house we find 2 planets in the house. We find Leo on the cusp, we find Mercury closest
to the cusp of the house. Mercury, being closer to the cusp of the house and in the house, is the most important planet
there and dominates the native's relationships with other people, dominates his businessrelationships and dominates his
personel partnerships. Mercury is more important than the Sun or Jupiter in determining the significations of the native's
7th house.
On the other hand he says again and again:
the good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
I'm rather tired though. I should probably call it a day, have that beer, relax and think it over tomorrow.
I'll go watch the Sopranos. Now there's a guy with essentiell dignity and debility all at once. And it doesn't do much goodfor the affairs of his house
Yuki

Zoller isn't known for his clarity. I take it that the house ruler is the significator and gives the general condition of the affairs of the house,but the planet(s) in the house itself have a more immediate effect. If the Sun rules the 7th, the Sun still calls the shots. If Mercury isnear the cusp, Mercury is going to seem more prominent. This also works backwards. If Mercury is in the 7th, he is determined toward
relationships, and whatever houses he rules happens through relationships.
I think a better statement from him would have been "position is more immediate than rulership".

I completely agree with all this. In fact that last statement is pretty much exactly how i feel about it.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #244 - on: 24.08.2011 at 22:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 24.08.2011 at 19:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 17:27 [UT+1]:
For this you can also check DMA lesson 6, page 37 et seq. and DMA lesson 8, page 16 and 17.

I checked it, and it is this part that caused the 'trouble', where he talks about a chart with the 7th in Leo, and Mercury and Jupiter in thehouse:

Posts: 1042
Gender:Now if we look at the native's 7th house we find 2 planets in the house. We find Leo on the cusp, we find Mercury closest to the cusp of
the house. Mercury, being closer to the cusp of the house and in the house, is the most important planet there and dominates the native's
relationships with other people, dominates his businessrelationships and dominates his personel partnerships. Mercury is more important
than the Sun or Jupiter in determining the significations of the native's 7th house.
On the other hand he says again and again:
the good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
I'm rather tired though. I should probably call it a day, have that beer, relax and think it over tomorrow.
I'll go watch the Sopranos. Now there's a guy with essentiell dignity and debility all at once. And it doesn't do much good for the affairs of
his house

When Zoller speaks about ‘the good or bad of a house emanates from the ruler of the house’ I take it this way:
A sign always “acts” or “behaves” according to the nature, zodiacal state and local determination of its ruler (wecan already find this connection of a sign and it’s ruler in Valen’s “Anthology”).
But here again I find the usage of the words ‘good’ and ‘bad’ somewhat unfortunate. Instead you may think
about the promise or simply the significations of a house. This good-and-bad thing relates to the classificationof the houses into areas of life or experiences which we generally consider as advantageous, profitable orpleasant/comfortable for us or areas we consider to be the opposite of this (e.g. illness, losses, death etc.).
If the ruler of a sign on a certain house cusp is in good essential and/or accidental dignities, the promise or thatwhich is shown by the house he rules will quite easily be realized. Because as Valens states, “And all the things
that the ruler is at times accustomed to produce by its own nature, whether good or base, or lesser or greater,
each one of the zoidia [sign] will also produce according to whether the figure-description of its ruler isoperative or unprofitable.” (This also includes aversion but I don’t want to extend it to this right now).
Simply put, if the ruler of a house is in a good and profitable condition, particularly with good aspects from thebenefics, the promise and the affairs of the house he rules will quite easily be realized. If the ruler of this house
is debilitated/afflicted, the affairs of the house are also debilitated/afflicted and their realization cause more
problems and/or are accompanied by troubles, adversity or setbacks etc.
A planet in a house has a more direct impact on the affairs of the house. This influence can be positive or
negative depending on the condition of the planet. But the ruler of the house is the manager of the house andin the end he is responsible for how everything turns out. We can find this principle very often in Hellenistic andArabic sources which means that if a planet or a lot is in a bad condition but the ruler of the planet or the lot isin a good condition, things may start with problems, trouble and adversity but will end with ease and success,and vice versa. So, the ruler of a house can show us the results of the affairs of the house and the developmentof those things signified by the house. In this regard he has also a temporal signification.
The ruler of a house wants to realize the affairs of his house through the house he is actually in (all in accord
with its own condition). So he uses the affairs of the house he is in to make the promise of the house he rules
to come true. In this way the things/affairs of the house he is in become/show the cause, the source or theorigin for the realization of the promise of his own house (gosh, I seriously hope I don’t make it more
complicated than it is). I think this is what Zoller means with his word “emanate”.
Jogi
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beyond the stars

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #245 - on: 24.08.2011 at 22:18 [UT+1] »wow, Gabe; what system of thought are you referring to? The Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Sumerians... allwere heavily influenced by their own myths, and the Greeks (as well as other cultures) picked them up andtaught them to those who came after... all those myths continue to influence us. The Greeks interpreted what
they'd inherited from earlier periods, just as we do now with the Greeks... the wheel continues to turn...
Enlil, thank you so much for writing that about the Persian translations. That's extremely helpful!

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #246 - on: 24.08.2011 at 22:46 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 22:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 24.08.2011 at 19:10 [UT+1]:
angles are called hinges or pivots
this would infer the usage of draconic charts.

Nope.
I still don't think you grasp fully the fact that astrology is not unique to one culture or region. There are manydifferent words for different things.
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gimelresh

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #247 - on: 24.08.2011 at 23:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Horisont on 24.08.2011 at 22:18 [UT+1]:
wow, Gabe; what system of thought are you referring to? The Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Sumerians... all were heavily influenced bytheir own myths, and the Greeks (as well as other cultures) picked them up and taught them to those who came after... all those myths
continue to influence us. The Greeks interpreted what they'd inherited from earlier periods, just as we do now with the Greeks... the wheel
continues to turn...

Posts: 47
Gender:

Enlil, thank you so much for writing that about the Persian translations. That's extremely helpful!

Hi Horisont,What I mean is that, while mythology is important for a lot of reasons, it isn't or shouldn't be the basis of aastrology, which by its name implies a logical system of knowing. Mythic or omen based ways of knowing withbe something else entirely. Not a lesser thing, mind you, but something more oracular in nature, analogous to
Tarot reading.
Gabe
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #248 - on: 25.08.2011 at 01:44 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 22:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 24.08.2011 at 19:10 [UT+1]:
angles are called hinges or pivots
this would infer the usage of draconic charts.

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Gender:No it doesn't It's because the angles represent two axes.
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Ethereal Mountain

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #249 - on: 25.08.2011 at 03:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 24.08.2011 at 22:05 [UT+1]:

The ruler of a house wants to realize the affairs of his house through the house he is actually in (all in accord with its own condition). So
he uses the affairs of the house he is in to make the promise of the house he rules to come true. In this way the things/affairs of thePosts: 1039
Gender:house he is in become/show the cause, the source or the origin for the realization of the promise of his own house (gosh, I seriously hope
I don’t make it more complicated than it is). I think this is what Zoller means with his word “emanate”.
Jogi

Can I just ask here (pretty off topic), what happens when the ruler of the cusp is also in that house?

Quote from _Paul_ on 24.08.2011 at 22:46 [UT+1]:

I still don't think you grasp fully the fact that astrology is not unique to one culture or region. There are many different words for different
things.

And many different words for the same thing, sometimes
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #250 - on: 25.08.2011 at 04:07 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 25.08.2011 at 03:51 [UT+1]:
Can I just ask here (pretty off topic), what happens when the ruler of the cusp is also in that house?

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Gender:Then that planet is the is the main significator and that's it.

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Ethereal Mountain

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #251 - on: 25.08.2011 at 04:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 25.08.2011 at 04:07 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 25.08.2011 at 03:51 [UT+1]:
Can I just ask here (pretty off topic), what happens when the ruler of the cusp is also in that house?

Posts: 1039
Gender:Then that planet is the is the main significator and that's it.

And just simply does not operate elsewhere? (Except where ruling a different planet in its sign?)
Also, in an example I am thinking of, the planet is in a different sign to the sign on the cusp. (F in j with ion the cusp. j does not have a cusp). Now the house also has 3 other planets in it, including G, which in turnrules the sign F is in. The rulership of this house is complicated, but so self-referential. It's very confusing.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #252 - on: 25.08.2011 at 04:27 [UT+1] »Basically, to use an easy example, if Sagittarius is on the 7th cusp, and Jupiter is in Sagittarius in the 7th, thenJupiter is determined toward relationships, then typically Pisces is on the 10th. There is a link between
relationships and career.

Posts: 1210
Gender:If, and this will only happen in quadrant signs, Jupiter is in Capricorn the 7th, but the 7th is Sagittarius, thenJupiter is still determined toward relationships, but is weakened a bit (Jupiter has some dignities in Capricorn)
but most likely there would be a link between relationships and whatever house Pisces is in. In this caserelationships are more controlled by Saturn, but Jupiter is going to be more prominent.

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Yukionna

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #253 - on: 25.08.2011 at 05:51 [UT+1] »Thanks for the explanations everybody, I'll have to think about it and go back to some charts to see how thatworks out. If then I still can't figure it out I might open a thread with an example chart. Will see. Enough fornow.
Have a nice day. Where I am, it's just started. Job is waiting.
Yuki

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #254 - on: 25.08.2011 at 09:39 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 08:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 25.08.2011 at 01:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 24.08.2011 at 22:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 24.08.2011 at 19:10 [UT+1]:
angles are called hinges or pivots
this would infer the usage of draconic charts.

No it doesn't It's because the angles represent two axes.

even though i agree that the cardinal points are taken from the four directions, the use of cardinal in roman catholicism represents a bodyof persons that elect a new leader. before this, the election was done by Diocese of Rome. both of these bodies have a coat of arms thatsignify a right and left bound by a single point which is the pivot. in the Diocese of Rome coat of arms two keys are depicted, and these
represent two vestibules. the one is gold and the other made of silver.

None of which relates to astrology changling. I have to agree with Dren that you seem to be trying to force inyour own particular spiritual beliefs into this discussion.
The fact remains that many different words describe the same thing. If this is in contradiction to your particularbeliefs, then it's up to you to either abandon those beliefs or find some way of weaving them together. It has
nothing to do with us and we shouldn't be trying to do that for you. If you can't do it, then abandon thosebeliefs as faulty. The fact remains, which is incontrovertible, that different cultures called the same things
different names.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #255 - on: 25.08.2011 at 09:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 25.08.2011 at 04:11 [UT+1]:
And just simply does not operate elsewhere? (Except where ruling a different planet in its sign?)

F

Also, in an example I am thinking of, the planet is in a different sign to the sign on the cusp. (inhave a cusp). Now the house also has 3 other planets in it, including, which in turn rules the signG

j with i on the cusp. j does not
F is in. The rulership of this house iscomplicated, but so self-referential. It's very confusing.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying that Jupiter is in Saturn's sign, and Saturn is in Jupiter's sign? If so, then, if
they aspect, this is just mutual reception. If they do not aspect, it is mutual generosity.
(throwing in intercepted houses just adds more confusion)
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #256 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:11 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 09:58 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 09:39 [UT+1]:
None of which relates to astrology changling. I have to agree with Dren that you seem to be trying to force in your own
particular spiritual beliefs into this discussion.
The fact remains that many different words describe the same thing. If this is in contradiction to your particular beliefs,
then it's up to you to either abandon those beliefs or find some way of weaving them together. It has nothing to do with us
and we shouldn't be trying to do that for you. If you can't do it, then abandon those beliefs as faulty. The fact remains,which is incontrovertible, that different cultures called the same things different names.
again your actual denial of astrology and its use through the ages astounds me. to believe i am trying to pervert its course is ludicrous.
the "priests" of dynastic egypt, the mention of astrology in the temples in roman times, the churches with depictions of astrologicalsignificance, the glyphs and their symbology, i could carry on with the subtle clues that all relate astrology to religion being bound together
but find your mind dulled by bigotry.

Changling I've had enough of your non-sequitor statements. I do not deny astrology, CLEARLY, seeing as I
post here and probably use it every single day. I don't believe you're trying to pervert the course of astrology, I
believe you're being deliberately obtuse because of a clash between reality (the same thing has many manydifferent names in astrology) and your preferred belief system. My mind is not dulled by bigotry. It justhappens to be that I actually don't care about your beliefs. I don't care if astrology is related to religion (intruth I believe both are linked to astronomical observations and beliefs accrued from those observations)because we're not discussing that here. That might be a news flash for you. We're not discussing your spiritualbelief system. Sorry. We're discussing astrology as it pertains to the houses.
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loulouaz

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #257 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:19 [UT+1] »What we need are Uranian astrologers here. I'm sick and tired of the saturnian or traditional astrologers trying
to get the last word in all the time.
Where are the URANIAN astrologers please ? come on guys & get everyone out of the grip of the malefics
Posts: 1185
Gender:running amock all over this forum.
We need to advance forwards from this futile debate/ argument if the saturnian astrologers have their way wewill never make progress, just be stuck with them in the dark ages for ever !!
I would take them on but I am not an astrologer, Stephen Baxter & Chang*ling need back up though they are
doing well.

O rules astrology. not mercury or saturn.
O O O shine the light on the dense saturnian & mercurial ones peleeeze.
I suppose though, the Uranians here should just move on & leave the blind ones in the dark.
The malefics like nothing better than imprisoning themselves & others into the dense prisons that they havecreated for anyone stupid enough to get locked up in them !
Leave them to it.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #258 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:22 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 10:19 [UT+1]:
What we need are Uranian astrologers here. I'm sick and tired of the saturnian or traditional astrologers trying to get the last word in all
the time.
Where are the URANIAN astrologers please ? come on guys & get everyone out of the grip of the malefics running amock all over thisforum.
We need to advance forwards from this futile debate/ argument if the saturnian astrologers have their way we will never make progress,
just be stuck with them in the dark ages for ever !!
I would take them on but I am not an astrologer, Stephen Baxter & Chang*ling need back up though they are doing well.
rules astrology. not mercury or saturn.

O

O O O shine the light on the dense saturnian & mercurial ones peleeeze.
I suppose though, the Uranians here should just move on & leave the blind ones in the dark.
The malefics like nothing better than imprisoning themselves & others into the dense prisons that they have created for anyone stupid
enough to get locked up in them !
Leave them to it.

You do realise that Mercury isn't a malefic right? And actually Uranus is considered malefic. Ah well, minor
details I guess.
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #259 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:29 [UT+1] »Many would disagree that O is a malefic, unless like you they are stuck in a murky, dense mind frame.
C is definitely a malefic when directed to spreading false information which is waht you are trying to do.

Posts: 1185
Gender:Lastly, you paul, are definitely a malefic as far as I can see, go away, I told you I am not replying to you
anymore. Slither back into the dark ages where you are from & stay there.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #260 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:32 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 10:29 [UT+1]:
but when i joined the discussion and questioned the title of rules, you took it as an opportunity to dismiss my discourse with illogicalstatements as believing it is possible to follow two leaders(rulers), even awhile to the unraveling of your mind, you actually created a box
for yourself saying that a house has no rules unless assigned by cusping or resident of planet.
i deplore you to become more aware of your motivation, when directed towards me, that i am no fool, and will match your with withease.
have a good day sir.

Actually what i said was that a house cannot have a planetary ruler on a general level. I guess you DIDN'T get it
after all.
Whatever. Connect whatever dots you want between dogs and uranus and all the rest. If it helps your astrology,
go for it.
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loulouaz

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #261 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:37 [UT+1] »Chang* ling an old saying I have heard :let the dirt play with the dirt if it pleases the dirt.
Posts: 1185
Gender:Leave the dense ones to it.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #262 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:41 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 10:37 [UT+1]:
Chang* ling an old saying I have heard :let the dirt play with the dirt if it pleases the dirt.
Leave the dense ones to it.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #263 - on: 25.08.2011 at 10:59 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 10:50 [UT+1]:
There is nothing contradictory about this. Houses rule things, planets, in turn, rule houses.

please note the inconsistency of what you are thinking and writing.
[/quote]Yeah how many times can we walk down that road. If you don't get it you don't get it. You seem too attachedto the syntax than the meaning behind it. Not my loss. I already understand all this. I found my friends driving
license for her using these methods. I live in a whole other country and she'd been looking for 2 weeks. I foundit in about a half hour for her using these methods. This isn't theory to me.
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rookishMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #264 - on: 25.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1] »Quote:
Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

For me, the terminology in the question is problematic.
Houses do not rule anything. They represent areas of life. Specific things fall within one of these 12 houses, 12
areas of life.
Posts: 3675

Planets rule houses - natural rulers (NOT the rulers of the signs that have been linked to houses), and accidental
rulers - the ruler of the sign on the cusp of the house.
My tuppenceworth. It's all very well saying 'we all know what it means', but I disagree, it shows that we do
not all know what each other means if we cannot be precise in our terminology and definitions. The inability to
use the correct terminology (especially in a relatively esoteric field of endeavour that hinges on symbolism andrepresentations), signifies miscomprehension of the basic principles. It is not a slip of the tongue to say that ahouse rules a subject - it is a very basic misunderstanding of the nature of houses.
On to astrology in the chart.
When I first learnt astrology some 30+ years ago, I was taught that astrology was part of mysticism and theoccult and hence a 12h matter. (A sign of the times perhaps and acceptance/not of astrology - in the city I
lived in the shop I used to buy astrology books from was attacked, graffitied and vandalised on several
occasions and finally was burnt down, a stationery/art supplier used to have sheets with blank charts for sale,this too was harrangued in the local press - big cathedral and church community). Others have different
teachings and I'm willing to listen.
More significant from my viewpoint:
Pelletier noted that interest in astrology is indicated by prominence of O either by elevation in chart or aspect
to ABC.
CEO Carter showed certain degrees associated with interest and proficiency in astrology. 27e/k, 11f/l
noted as strong indicators of greater than general interest.
Gauquelin contended that Jupiter was prominent in horoscopes of astrologers.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #265 - on: 25.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
dear paul,
i dont buy credential based argument. gold stars are for kindergaten. if you are looking for blind followers to your inflated ego, then iassume everything that you have directed at me, is really your own projected self.
btw, your quote is deceptive in reply# 293, it was not i that wrote those words but you.

Just the way it is I'm afraid. Either it works or it doesn't work. I had thought you were misunderstanding andwanted to get it and to learn. I was wrong, you misunderstand it and prefer your misunderstandings, or at least
that's how it seems. You cannot appear to grasp simple concepts such as the 'working backwards' idea and how
illogical that is. What I'm trying to say is that whilst I'd do my best to explain it to you, if you dont' want tounderstand it, then I'm wasting my time. I already understand it, it's no skin off my nose if you don't.
You're arguing about this from a theoretical syntax based issue, but the point I'm making is that it's not justtheoretical to me. It's very much practical, it's also verifiable. There's not just natal astrology out there where
you could be right or wrong, but never really know. There's other branches where you are EITHER right orwrong and you WILL find out and there's no grey areas. Using these methods verifiably works. Ignore them or
do whatever you feel like, but the reason I'm using them is because they actually verifiably work, you can test it
and see whether it works, it's not an abstract theory. When there's a missing item you either find it using yourmethods, or you do not find it. There's no in between. Whilst you toy with the syntax of the issue and try to
gel it with your particular blend of beliefs, I don't need to. I already know it works.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #266 - on: 25.08.2011 at 11:28 [UT+1] »Quote from rookish on 25.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
Houses do not rule anything. They represent areas of life. Specific things fall within one of these 12 houses, 12 areas of life.

I accept that a better term would have been 'signifies'. I just get caught up in the terminology that others use
as a simplification, to say, the third house rules siblings etc. Okay 'rules' may not be the best word to use.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #267 - on: 25.08.2011 at 11:36 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
You're arguing about this from a theoretical syntax based issue, but the point I'm making is that it's not just theoretical tome.
all the other "stuff" i removed from your quote is because of its irrelavance.
The term syntax is also used to refer to the rules governing the behavior of mathematical systems, such as formal languages used inlogic.
if your system of astrology is not based upon logic, you fail to understand the system.

A big IF there, luckily my astrology is based upon logic. Bully for me.
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #268 - on: 25.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 10:19 [UT+1]:
What we need are Uranian astrologers here. I'm sick and tired of the saturnian or traditional astrologers trying to get the last word in all
the time.
Where are the URANIAN astrologers please ? come on guys & get everyone out of the grip of the malefics running

amock all over this forum.
We need to advance forwards from this futile debate/ argument if the saturnian astrologers havetheir way we will never make progress, just be stuck with them in the dark ages for ever !!
I would take them on but I am not an astrologer, Stephen Baxter & Chang*ling need back up though they are doing well.

O rules astrology. not mercury or saturn.
O O O shine the light on the dense saturnian & mercurial ones peleeeze.
I suppose though, the Uranians here should just move on & leave the blind ones in the dark.
The malefics like nothing better than imprisoning themselves & others into the dense prisons that they have created for anyone stupid
enough to get locked up in them !
Leave them to it.

What strange space have we entered? As Paul pointed out, Mercury, the traditional ruler of astrology, is notconsidered to be a malefic. Yet Uranus often is -- by many modern astrologers. Don't we often hear talk of
warnings, fright, and dread around here about Uranus transiting one's Sun, Moon or ASC? Does anyone ever
use the same ominous tones with transiting, progressed or solar arc Mercury aspecting the same bodies andpoint? No. Hardly.
THUS - If you don't like malefics and want somebody nicer ruling astrology you are safer sticking with moreneutral Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology. Traditional Mercury would give you the peace of mind you
are looking for.

Quote:
I would take them on but I am not an astrologer, Stephen Baxter & Chang*ling need back up though they are doing well.

O rules astrology. not mercury or saturn.
So why would or should we listen to the opinion of someone who admits to not being an astrologer?

You'vejust admitted that we have every right to ignore your opinion. Only dimwitted or careless people shoot theirown foot. [In all fairness, accidents do happen. However, yours is no accident. Your aim is way off.]

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #269 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:06 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 11:50 [UT+1]:
uhuh, another learned comes to join the foray.
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 11:36 [UT+1]:

luckily my astrology is based upon logic.
dear paul
you have either lost comprehension or consciousness, that i am sure. when i asked about what the AS rules you stated "appearance" thenwent on later in the discussion to say that the "lord of the AS" rules appearance as well.
i contest your logic as to believe their can be two rulers of the same domain.

Have I not already settled this for you? Let me retract those statements if it makes it easier for you. The
houses signify, the planets rule. If that stops you gonig on and on and on about it, then let's say that instead.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #270 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:11 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 25.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1]:
So why would or should we listen to the opinion of someone who admits to not being an astrologer? You've just admitted that we haveevery right to ignore your opinion. Only dimwitted or careless people shoot their own foot. [In all fairness, accidents do happen. However,yours is no accident. Your aim is way off.]

True, if nothing else, loulouaz appears not to actually understand what a malefic is, especially that comment
about 'locking themselves in the dark' yada yada yada.
For the benefit of those who aren't astrologers, do not know what malefics are, and still feel they shouldcomment to others who are astrologers and do know what malefics are: Malefics are called such not because
they are evil or dark, they are called such because they are extreme in their temperament, saturn being
extremely cold, mars being extremely hot. Hence their sect can be seen as a mollifying influence, Saturn in the
day to balance its extreme cold, mars at night to balance the extreme heat.
This is actual astrology unfortunately, it's not just random vitriolic nonsense, so it should probably be ignored.
By the way, nobody has yet said WHY Uranus is better placed to rule astrology than Mercury.
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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #271 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:28 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:11 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 25.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1]:
So why would or should we listen to the opinion of someone who admits to not being an astrologer? You've just admitted
that we have every right to ignore your opinion. Only dimwitted or careless people shoot their own foot. [In all fairness,
accidents do happen. However, yours is no accident. Your aim is way off.]

True, if nothing else, loulouaz appears not to actually understand what a malefic is, especially that comment about 'locking themselves inthe dark' yada yada yada.
For the benefit of those who aren't astrologers, do not know what malefics are, and still feel they should comment to others who areastrologers and do know what malefics are: Malefics are called such not because they are evil or dark, they

are called such because they are extreme in their temperament, saturn being extremely cold, mars being
extremely hot. Hence their sect can be seen as a mollifying influence, Saturn in the day to balance its extreme cold, mars at night tobalance the extreme heat.
This is actual astrology unfortunately, it's not just random vitriolic nonsense, so it should probably be ignored.
By the way, nobody has yet said WHY Uranus is better placed to rule astrology than Mercury.

Yes. Malefics are planets of excess. Benefics are planets of moderation.
Many say that Uranus is the "higher octave" of Mercury. They also say that Uranus is a planet of rebellion,
revolution, and disruption. That makes Uranus a planet of extremes and excess -- a malefic. In giving Uranus
the rulership of astrology they are handing astrology over to a planet of malefic extremes and excess.
These people may want to reconsider and stick with the humbler octave of Mercury.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #272 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:32 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 25.08.2011 at 12:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:11 [UT+1]:
Quote from ZappoII on 25.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1]:
So why would or should we listen to the opinion of someone who admits to not being an astrologer? You've
just admitted that we have every right to ignore your opinion. Only dimwitted or careless people shoot theirown foot. [In all fairness, accidents do happen. However, yours is no accident. Your aim is way off.]

True, if nothing else, loulouaz appears not to actually understand what a malefic is, especially that comment about 'locking
themselves in the dark' yada yada yada.
For the benefit of those who aren't astrologers, do not know what malefics are, and still feel they should comment toothers who are astrologers and do know what malefics are: Malefics are called such not because they

are evil or dark, they are called such because they are extreme in their temperament,
saturn being extremely cold, mars being extremely hot. Hence their sect can be seen as a mollifying influence, Saturn inthe day to balance its extreme cold, mars at night to balance the extreme heat.
This is actual astrology unfortunately, it's not just random vitriolic nonsense, so it should probably be ignored.
By the way, nobody has yet said WHY Uranus is better placed to rule astrology than Mercury.

Yes. Malefics are planets of excess. Benefics are planets of moderation.
Many say that Uranus is the "higher octave" of Mercury. They also say that Uranus is a planet of rebellion, revolution, and disruption. Thatmakes Uranus a planet of extremes and excess -- a malefic. In giving Uranus the rulership of astrology they are handing astrology over toa planet of malefic extremes and excess.

And others say it is the higher octave of the Sun, with Neptune either the higher octave of Venus or the Moon.
If we were to consider symbolism for this 'higher octave' stuff, then in truth, a better claim could be made for
Pluto to be the higher octave of Mercury than Uranus. Both deal with transformation of some kind, mercury was
the traditional ruler of magic and alchemy and transsubstantiation. People would probably assign that to Pluto
now.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #273 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:34 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 12:23 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:06 [UT+1]:
Have I not already settled this for you? Let me retract those statements if it makes it easier for you. The houses signify,
the planets rule. If that stops you gonig on and on and on about it, then let's say that instead.
you have jumped out of the pot and into the fire.
my contesting was not ruling out the possibilty of two rulers, as in natural and accidental, within the house structures but pressure yourability to formulate a conprehensible retort that makes the matter clear for yourself. my rebuff was two fold, to create tension, for you torise to the challenge and for me to guage the rising.

I've never known someone to speak so much and say so little. Have fun gauging and all that. The matter isperfectly clear in my own head and always was. What wasn't clear is what syntax to use for it to be 'okay' withyou.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #274 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:48 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 12:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:34 [UT+1]:
what syntax to use
Astrology is sometimes compared to a language, a divinatory language. And like any language there are rules of grammar, syntax, diction,etc., which are codified.

What an excellent analogy. And what rules language I wonder....[scratches head]
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #275 - on: 25.08.2011 at 12:55 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 12:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 12:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:34 [UT+1]:
what syntax to use
Astrology is sometimes compared to a language, a divinatory language. And like any language there arerules of grammar, syntax, diction, etc., which are codified.

What an excellent analogy. And what rules language I wonder....[scratches head]from your question, the threads heading arises albeit somewhat obliquely represented.

yeah sure, so according to you which planet rules language and astrlogy?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #276 - on: 25.08.2011 at 13:08 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 13:04 [UT+1]:
the understanding that language grew with a companion of pictorials or symbols suggests to me a mutable force is the likely candidate.

So which planet rules language and astrology?
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Lynne

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #277 - on: 25.08.2011 at 13:13 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 13:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 13:04 [UT+1]:
the understanding that language grew with a companion of pictorials or symbols suggests to me a mutable force is thelikely candidate.

So which planet rules language and astrology?

Oh gawwwd, I can't stand it>

Mercury!!!

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #278 - on: 25.08.2011 at 13:26 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 25.08.2011 at 13:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 13:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 13:04 [UT+1]:
the understanding that language grew with a companion of pictorials or symbols suggests to me a mutable
force is the likely candidate.

So which planet rules language and astrology?

Oh gawwwd, I can't stand it> Mercury!!!

LolOk, I give up now, just couldnt' resist that one.
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Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #279 - on: 25.08.2011 at 14:27 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 09:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 25.08.2011 at 04:11 [UT+1]:
And just simply does not operate elsewhere? (Except where ruling a different planet in its sign?)

Posts: 1039
Gender:F

ji

Also, in an example I am thinking of, the planet is in a different sign to the sign on the cusp. (inwithon thecusp.
does not have a cusp). Now the house also has 3 other planets in it, including, which in turn rules the sign

j

G

F

is in. The rulership of this house is complicated, but so self-referential. It's very confusing.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying that Jupiter is in Saturn's sign, and Saturn is in Jupiter's sign? If so, then, if they aspect, this is justmutual reception. If they do not aspect, it is mutual generosity.
(throwing in intercepted houses just adds more confusion)

No. This is a real chart I am thinking of. Jupiter and Saturn are conjunct in j. The house cusp has i on it,
and j has no cusp at all. There is no mutual reception as such.
And by the way, thanks Enlil.
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loulouaz
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #280 - on: 25.08.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 25.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 10:19 [UT+1]:
What we need are Uranian astrologers here. I'm sick and tired of the saturnian or traditional astrologers trying to get thelast word in all the time.
Where are the URANIAN astrologers please ? come on guys & get everyone out of the grip of the malefics

Posts: 1185
Gender:running amock all over this forum.
We need to advance forwards from this futile debate/ argument if the saturnian
astrologers have their way we will never make progress, just be stuck with them in the dark ages
for ever !!
I would take them on but I am not an astrologer, Stephen Baxter & Chang*ling need back up though they are doing well.

O rules astrology. not mercury or saturn.
O O O shine the light on the dense saturnian & mercurial ones peleeeze.
I suppose though, the Uranians here should just move on & leave the blind ones in the dark.
The malefics like nothing better than imprisoning themselves & others into the dense prisons that they have created foranyone stupid enough to get locked up in them !
Leave them to it.

What strange space have we entered? As Paul pointed out, Mercury, the traditional ruler of astrology, is not considered to be a malefic.
Yet Uranus often is -- by many modern astrologers. Don't we often hear talk of warnings, fright, and dread around here about Uranustransiting one's Sun, Moon or ASC? Does anyone ever use the same ominous tones with transiting, progressed or solar arc Mercury
aspecting the same bodies and point? No. Hardly.
THUS - If you don't like malefics and want somebody nicer ruling astrology you are safer sticking with more neutral Mercury as the
traditional ruler of astrology. Traditional Mercury would give you the peace of mind you are looking for.

Quote:
I would take them on but I am not an astrologer, Stephen Baxter & Chang*ling need back up though they are
doing well.

O rules astrology. not mercury or saturn.
So why would or should we listen to the opinion of someone who admits to not being an astrologer? You've just admitted that we haveevery right to ignore your opinion. Only dimwitted or careless people shoot their own foot. [In all fairness, accidents do happen. However,yours is no accident. Your aim is way off.]NO, of course C can be a malefic, the worst kind, spreading lies & propaganda disguised as truth something
you & your sidekick Paul seem adept at, mabe you are both daily mail reporters or part of murdochs ruthless
empire. Almost certainly that whole fiasco shows C as a malefic, influencing peoples minds through lies &propaganda. When it has the backup of G then C is also a dangerous malefic, far worse than or at least equal
to E.
All astrologers say G & E are malefics NOT just because of the extreme temperatures on their planets !!
everyone knows that, really zappo don't you need a knew side kick, someone who at least knows what he istalking about.
I may not be an astrologer but I know a lot about it & am excellent at divining peoples character from birthdata.
I can easily divine your character too zappo, without birth data but I'm polite enough to refrain from doing so
on a forum.
Zappo, you & your side kick need to get lives instead of being relentlessly hostile to people on this forum. You
are obviously frustrated as a duo / double act & both of you come across as aggressive to people who disagreewith you, that in it self points either to serious self doubt about the knowledge you are imparting { justifiably}or that you are plain nasty & dense. I think all three apply.

O is the ruler of astrology. Not mercury.
As for O being a malefic because of the challenging of status quo, the people who interpret O as malefic are
more than likely predominantly saturnian in nature.
Well of course they will see O as malefic. It is not though, it is trying to awaken them from their slumber orcomplacent outlook. Mabe it tries to awaken them from the prisons they are locked in because of their insisting
to adhere to saturns & mercurys relentless brainwashing through propaganda ,promotion of certain lifestyles
etc . That can hardly be defined as malefic.

J is malefic though, like your side kick ! & yes it is probably the higher octave of mercury.
It is easy to see saturn & mercury manifesting in you & your side kick. You both like to continually take what
others have said out of context & you both are dense beyond comprehension.
You are both malefics, & trolls I'm all for some Uranian astrologers taking you on & showing you both up forthe idiots you really are.

Interpreted any charts recently on this forum ? of course not, you like everyone else knows you are cr*p at that
as well.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #281 - on: 25.08.2011 at 17:41 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1]:
NO, of course

C can be a malefic, the worst kind, spreading lies & propaganda disguised as truth

Okay good. Welcome to the Make Up Your Own Astrology School. School currently accepting only students who
are uneducated on basic astrology.
Quote:
something you & your sidekick Paul seem adept at

Time to play hardball I think. I'm fed up of your snide insinuations and outright blatant insults. I'm reporting
you to the Admins. By all means disagree with my points, but you have no right to go around insulting andnamecalling.
Quote:
influencing peoples minds through lies & propaganda

Lies and propaganda. Yup, that would be Neptune, another outer planet, another malefic.
Quote:
l astrologers say

G & E are malefics NOT just because of the extreme temperatures on their planets !! everyone knows that, really zappo

don't you need a knew side kick, someone who at least knows what he is talking about.

LOL
yeah? find me one
Quote:
I may not be an astrologer but I know a lot about it & am excellent at divining peoples character from birth data.

Using what if not astrology?

Quote:
Zappo, you & your side kick need to get lives instead of being relentlessly hostile to people on this forum. You are obviously frustrated asa duo / double act & both of you come across as aggressive to people who disagree with you, that in it self points either to serious self
doubt about the knowledge you are imparting { justifiably} or that you are plain nasty & dense. I think all three apply.

Pot. Kettle. YOu know how it goes.
Quote:

O is the ruler of astrology. Not mercury.

Glad that's settled then. If only we had known we could abandon logic and reason in favour of simply declaring
ourselves right.
Quote:
You are both malefics, & trolls I'm all for some Uranian astrologers taking you on & showing you both up for the idiots you really are.

Insult again? Why not just do it yourself. WHy not just take our basic and ridiculously simple points and refute
them using logic rather than namecalling? What are you really saying here? "I'm rubbish at astrology, but if I
was good, I'd be able to coutner argue against you. Instead all I'm reduced to is hoping someone else can andin the mean time call you stupid for knowing more about the subject than I do."Quote:
Interpreted any charts recently on this forum ? of course not, you like everyone else knows you are cr*p at that as well.

Erm, all the time.
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loulouaz
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #282 - on: 25.08.2011 at 21:01 [UT+1] »Oh dear, some people love to dish it out don't they, like throwing rotten potatoes & stew from dubious sourceson to peoples faces, perhaps on people who don't like that kind of cuisine, either.
Shame they can't take it back isn't it ? If only they could get it into their simple heads that if you are rude &hostile to other people, chances are someone is going to dish it back to you.
Posts: 1185
Gender:A certain person said he would not post his chart on this forum, not just because of me interpreting it, butothers here too.
He whined something about casting pearls to swine. What is he doing on here, anyone know ?
Well now, if that is not a direct insult to other members here I do not know what is.
He constantly undermines others on here in a directly or non direct blatantly hostile manner, yet threatens toreport people who give him a good dose of his poison back.
One word. Hypocrite.

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #283 - on: 25.08.2011 at 21:03 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 12:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 12:34 [UT+1]:
what syntax to use
Astrology is sometimes compared to a language, a divinatory language. And like any language there are rules of grammar, syntax, diction,etc., which are codified.

Yes, but that's at the level of things like putting planets in signs and houses, classifying aspectual and otherrelationships (eg planetary pictures), rules for comparing planetary positions between two charts and so on.
Syntax is always about the mechanics of a "well-formed" method or statement. It's about "consensus
approved structural relationships", not about meaning.
Semantics is where the action really is.
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loulouaz
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #284 - on: 25.08.2011 at 21:06 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 17:41 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 17:30 [UT+1]:
NO, of course

Posts: 1185
Gender:C can be a malefic, the worst kind, spreading lies & propaganda disguised as truth

Okay good. Welcome to the Make Up Your Own Astrology School. School currently accepting only students who are uneducated on basic
astrology.
Quote:
something you & your sidekick Paul seem adept at

Time to play hardball I think. I'm fed up of your snide insinuations and outright blatant insults. I'm reporting you to the Admins. By allmeans disagree with my points, but you have no right to go around insulting and namecalling.
Quote:
influencing peoples minds through lies & propaganda

Lies and propaganda. Yup, that would be Neptune, another outer planet, another malefic.
Quote:

G E

l astrologers say&
are malefics NOT just because of the extreme temperatures on their planets !! everyone knows
that, really zappo don't you need a knew side kick, someone who at least knows what he is talking about.

LOL
yeah? find me one
Quote:
I may not be an astrologer but I know a lot about it & am excellent at divining peoples character from birth data.

Using what if not astrology?

Quote:
Zappo, you & your side kick need to get lives instead of being relentlessly hostile to people on this forum. You are
obviously frustrated as a duo / double act & both of you come across as aggressive to people who disagree with you, thatin it self points either to serious self doubt about the knowledge you are imparting { justifiably} or that you are plain nasty& dense. I think all three apply.

Pot. Kettle. YOu know how it goes.
Quote:

O is the ruler of astrology. Not mercury.
Glad that's settled then. If only we had known we could abandon logic and reason in favour of simply declaring ourselves right.
Quote:
You are both malefics, & trolls I'm all for some Uranian astrologers taking you on & showing you both up for the idiots you
really are.

Insult again? Why not just do it yourself. WHy not just take our basic and ridiculously simple points and refute them using logic rather than
namecalling? What are you really saying here? "I'm rubbish at astrology, but if I was good, I'd be able to coutner argue against you.
Instead all I'm reduced to is hoping someone else can and in the mean time call you stupid for knowing more about the subject than I do."Quote:
Interpreted any charts recently on this forum ? of course not, you like everyone else knows you are cr*p at that as well.

Erm, all the time.

That post was to zappo, not you, his side kick. Thought it was obvious, never mind.
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Ethereal Mountain

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #285 - on: 25.08.2011 at 23:36 [UT+1] »since when were the outers all malefic? I thought they were outside classifications of malefic/benefic,
male/female...etc.

Posts: 1039
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #286 - on: 26.08.2011 at 09:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Ethereal Mountain on 25.08.2011 at 23:36 [UT+1]:
since when were the outers all malefic? I thought they were outside classifications of malefic/benefic, male/female...etc.

They are considered malefic in certain branches of astrology because they are extreme in their temperament,much like saturn and mars. As an example, when you see Uranus transiting over your venus, do you think "yay,this is good for my love life", or do you think "shit, the divorce transit is on its way!"
This is even more true in electional and horary but we see it in natal astrology too by way of transits and their
depictions. Although moderns agree that ultimately pluto transits bring transformation, they first destroy andstrip away - that lack of comfort is considered malefic.
Remember malefic does not mean "evil", it just means uncomfortable or extreme in this situation.
Many consider all the outers malefic, some say that Neptune is not so malefic but the others are. Most modernswould probably agree that uranus and pluto are definitely malefic. Neptune, the jury is probably still out for
many.
Remember though that these terms are used in the sense that traditional astrologers mean them. They do NOT
mean evil. They do mean uncomfortable.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #287 - on: 26.08.2011 at 09:49 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 09:43 [UT+1]:
doing a socio/political background check

Sorry. I'm not a facist. I don't judge people based on 'political checks', or social checks. I judge based on theastrology.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #288 - on: 26.08.2011 at 09:58 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 09:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 09:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 09:43 [UT+1]:
doing a socio/political background check

Sorry. I'm not a facist. I don't judge people based on 'political checks', or social checks. I judge based on the astrology.

i didnt call you facist, you seem to jump the gun. if you can grasp that some people with little understanding of politics are the very
individuals that are steeped in a political incline they cannot see for themselves. it sometimes takes an outsiders view to give perspective.

If you cannot see that I was talking about astrology, and not politics, I don't know what else to say to you. Whyon earth should astrologers be judged based on their social or political ideas if their astrology is sound?
Whatever each tot heir own. The more you post the more convinced I am that Dren was right earlier and thatyou are just trying to shoe horn in your own pseudo-spiritual/religious beliefs into every conversation. Just stickto the astrology maybe?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #289 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:07 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 10:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 09:37 [UT+1]:

They are considered malefic in certain branches of astrology because they are extreme in their temperament, much likesaturn and mars. As an example, when you see Uranus transiting over your venus, do you think "yay, this is goodfor my love life", or do you think "shit, the divorce transit is on its way!"

if you cannot see what you write here as socio/political? then i have nothing to learn from you.

Well I can only speak for myself, my love life isn't heavily involved in politics. Perhaps yours is. In any event,
let's remain with the astrology.
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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #290 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:09 [UT+1] »What on earth are you on, chang*ling?! I'm sorry, but you sound deranged.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #291 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 26.08.2011 at 10:09 [UT+1]:
What on earth are you on, chang*ling?! I'm sorry, but you sound deranged.

Dren highlighted something earlier about Changling's pseudo-spiritual beliefs. It seems much of the 'confusion'
has actually been her attempt to 'convert' or 'enlighten' us to her way of thinking. Tbh I have to agree, I'm
starting to just think that Changling isn't here for any astrology commentary.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #292 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:25 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 10:24 [UT+1]:
people are obviously blind to the fact that marriage is a contract. this is a legal matter. politics.
deranged, no, transiting mars in my 12th is causing defences mechanisms.

Who mentioned marriage? NObody but you.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #293 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:35 [UT+1] »I mentioned divorce in the sense of being divorced from somebody, not necessarily a marriage, but I can see
why one would consider it the legal side if you want. I meant more a 'break up' transit, being divorced fromsomeone. LIke in a long term relationship. But okay, I accept it was vague.
(btw nobody has called you an idiot despite there being plenty reason to, please stop calling me one. I'm fed
up of your insults)
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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #294 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:38 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 10:27 [UT+1]:
again you have lost consciousness, you mentioned divorce. idiot.

Nice. The problem is that every single post you make is a detour off the topic that's being discussed, with somecryptic, veiled innuendo that doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the topic being discussed, and is often
so weirdly worded that's it's barely understandable.
Trying to follow the conversation makes me feel like I'm Alice in wonderland...where nothing is what I expect it
to be.
It's very, very, disconcerting and confusing chang*ling. I know my thinking is a tad linear, but is it too much to
ask to speak clearly in everyday English and stay with the topic?
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MaryD

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #295 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:39 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 13:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lynne on 25.08.2011 at 13:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 13:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 13:04 [UT+1]:
the understanding that language grew with a companion of pictorials or symbols suggests to me
a mutable force is the likely candidate.

So which planet rules language and astrology?

Posts: 1258
Gender:Oh gawwwd, I can't stand it> Mercury!!!

LolOk, I give up now, just couldnt' resist that one.

lol, very funny...bless you Paul for dealing with some (proving to be), seriously mentally imbalanced minds...
I'll just add my 2cents for the heck of it.

C rules astrology. C is neutral, neither malefic nor benefic. C is impressionable by association.
I think this is pretty clear and logical. No need to drag O into the mix.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #296 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:41 [UT+1] »Quote from marydaze on 26.08.2011 at 10:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 13:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lynne on 25.08.2011 at 13:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 25.08.2011 at 13:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 13:04 [UT+1]:
the understanding that language grew with a companion of pictorials or symbols
suggests to me a mutable force is the likely candidate.

So which planet rules language and astrology?

Oh gawwwd, I can't stand it> Mercury!!!

LolOk, I give up now, just couldnt' resist that one.

lol, very funny...bless you Paul for dealing with some (proving to be), seriously mentally imbalanced minds...
I'll just add my 2cents for the heck of it.
rules astrology.
is neutral, neither malefic nor benefic.

CC

I think this is pretty clear and logical. No need to dragC is impressionable by association.
O into the mix.

lol thanks marydaze,
Mercury is so netural it doesn't even have any real gender! Though when oriental tends toward masculinity, andwhen occidental toward femininity (apparently, I'm not sure how practical that information is though!)
NObody has yet said WHY Uranus should be used though, as far as I can recall. I've asked a few times, but itgets ignored.
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MaryD

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #297 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:51 [UT+1] »Quote:
NObody has yet said WHY Uranus should be used though, as far as I can recall. I've asked a few times, but it gets ignored.

It would be interesting to see if those in favor of O ruling astrology could come up with some sound, logicalreasoning that doesn't revolve around disjointed new age hoo-haa....good luck with that one

Posts: 1258
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #298 - on: 26.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 10:50 [UT+1]:
seems like paul and his half baked ideas, constantly forgetting what has gone before is the prime candidate.

I think most people would be sympathetic to me changling. It's become increasingly difficult to follow yourtrains of thought at all.
Quote:
no house rules anything. they are delineations of mathematical origin and through obsevation these sections are then filled with areas oflife that are affected by the placement of said such delineations in the zodiac and the planets that are residing.

The zodiac is equally just mathematically defined, and the planets are just balls of gas and matter. To houses
are assigned all things. I use the word 'rules' others, perhaps more accurately, use the word 'signifies'. This has
been covered ad nauseum.
Quote:
as for a planet ruling astrology, try and place the whole universe upon a single planet. it would not look like the one i see in the sky. if
one believes a solar planet can rule a distant star then i can seriously ask who is deranged.

Erm nobody is asking you to place the universe physcially onto a planet. Can you place all the wars that haveever been fought onto Mars? No? But Mars still rules war. Venus rules relationships. mercury rules
communication. Saturn rules restrictions.
Similarly Mercury rules astrology. Not difficult.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #299 - on: 26.08.2011 at 11:08 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1]:

Erm nobody is asking you to place the universe physcially onto a planet. Can you place all the wars that have ever beenfought onto Mars? No? But Mars still rules war. Venus rules relationships. mercury rules communication. Saturn rules
restrictions.
Similarly Mercury rules astrology. Not difficult.
over simplification of a system that you consciously accept with ommited pertainent information, will lead you to nowhere. goodluck

Yup, that's the system. I don't rewrite it. I just learn it and use it. When you do you'd be surprised just what
you can do with it.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #300 - on: 26.08.2011 at 11:32 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:26 [UT+1]:
again you are displaying a deficiency in understanding. you have constantly said things that are not true, parroting what you have read
without understanding the implications. you actually wonder why i call you a person that is intelectually challenged? i will deflect astatement you have passed upon my being, "you do not fully grasp or understand."How many times changling? This is not theory to me. This is practical. All these things I've said? I actuallywitness them work, I do it all the time. Nothing special about it or about me, it's done all the time.
As for parroting what I've read, it was actually you who started quoting from wikipedia, not me. I've not listedout authors as authorities as you have.
What are these untruths I've been saying?
You seem to have intelligence issues that you're trying to make me a hook for your projections. I'm fully
confident in my own intellectual abilities and always have been. Unfortunately that means that you're going tohave to look elsewhere to find a someoen to project those intellect issues onto.
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MaryD

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #301 - on: 26.08.2011 at 11:40 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1]:

Erm nobody is asking you to place the universe physcially onto a planet. Can you place all thewars that have ever been fought onto Mars? No? But Mars still rules war. Venus rules
relationships. mercury rules communication. Saturn rules restrictions.
Similarly Mercury rules astrology. Not difficult.

Posts: 1258
Gender:over simplification of a system that you consciously accept with ommited pertainent information, will lead
you to nowhere. goodluck

Yup, that's the system. I don't rewrite it. I just learn it and use it. When you do you'd be surprised just what you can dowith it.

again you are displaying a deficiency in comprehension. you have constantly said things that are not true, parroting what you have read
without understanding the implications. you actually wonder why i call you a person that is intelectually challenged? i will deflect astatement you have passed upon my being, "you do not fully grasp or understand."

From where I'm sitting there's nothing deficient in Paul's comprehension or understanding...and his logic is notdifficult to grasp.
So, I'll kindly offer you a mirror, reflection rather than deflection may be help.

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Jogi64
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #302 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:03 [UT+1] »Please! see my following statement without any ulterior motives. It is meant totally neutral without any
insinuations in a certain direction!!
Quote:
if we all followed blindly we would all be making the same assumptions and fall into the same traps.

Exactly this thought/attitude caused my interest in the roots/origins of western astrology and lead to myinterest in traditional sources.

Posts: 1042
Gender:

Jogi

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #303 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
if we all followed blindly we would all be making the same assumptions and fall into the same traps.

I totally agree which is why you should examine these things yourself and see if they work.
I did. They did work.
In fact I encourage you to actually try it out for yourself. Remember, some branches of astrology can actually
be verified, you can actually be either right or wrong with them. I use those branches of astrology a lot.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Lynne
Ex Member« Reply #304 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:12 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
you obviously have not been paying attention. read the thread again and pay notice to the assumptions that your prestigious one makes. if
we all followed blindly we would all be making the same assumptions and fall into the same traps.

I'm all for thinking outside the box, but unless you remember which box we are thinking outside of, and referback to in order for your 'original thought' to make sense in the context of the box.....well then, your justsprouting reactive, imaginary, irrelevant bullshit.
Which would be fine if you weren't starting every post with 'if you can't grasp...', an insulting (if ludicrous) putdown, because no one but you can make sense of your out-there meanderings. It's like you are trying to makeyourself feel important or something.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Dren_

Ex Member« Reply #305 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1]:

Erm nobody is asking you to place the universe physcially onto a planet. Can you place all thewars that have ever been fought onto Mars? No? But Mars still rules war. Venus rules
relationships. mercury rules communication. Saturn rules restrictions.
Similarly Mercury rules astrology. Not difficult.
over simplification of a system that you consciously accept with ommited pertainent information, will lead
you to nowhere. goodluck

Yup, that's the system. I don't rewrite it. I just learn it and use it. When you do you'd be surprised just what you can dowith it.

again you are displaying a deficiency in comprehension. you have constantly said things that are not true, parroting what you have read
without understanding the implications. you actually wonder why i call you a person that is intelectually challenged? i will deflect astatement you have passed upon my being, "you do not fully grasp or understand."

Just because he's not giving you the answer you want to hear, doesn't make him stupid.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Lynne
Ex Member« Reply #306 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:38 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:19 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1]:[
In fact I encourage you to actually try it out for yourself. Remember, some branches of astrology can actually be verified,
you can actually be either right or wrong with them. I use those branches of astrology a lot.

dear lynne, read the sentiment behind this. and then relfect what you were pointing towards me (It's like you are trying to make yourself
feel important or something) in the direction it should go.
this has become farcical, a tragedy in the making.

No darls, a tragedy is when something terrible happens....but you're right on with farcical part.
Paul's quote makes perfect sense, but how it connects to yours, and consequently mine, is a complete mystery
to me. I guess I'm just not grasping it.
I'm sorry I lost my temper, I do try really, really hard not to.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #307 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:42 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1]:

Erm nobody is asking you to place the universe physcially onto a planet.
Can you place all the wars that have ever been fought onto Mars? No? But
Mars still rules war. Venus rules relationships. mercury rules
communication. Saturn rules restrictions.
Similarly Mercury rules astrology. Not difficult.
over simplification of a system that you consciously accept with ommited pertainent
information, will lead you to nowhere. goodluck

Yup, that's the system. I don't rewrite it. I just learn it and use it. When you do you'd be
surprised just what you can do with it.

again you are displaying a deficiency in comprehension. you have constantly said things that are not true,
parroting what you have read without understanding the implications. you actually wonder why i call you aperson that is intelectually challenged? i will deflect a statement you have passed upon my being, "you do
not fully grasp or understand."

Just because he's not giving you the answer you want to hear, doesn't make him stupid.

another "learned" joins the circus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle
Principle
and the effective operation or use of which would be impossible if any one of the principles was to be ignored
astrology is based upon a principle. it is not a random choice of what we want but a structured system for a particular use.

OMG.
Seriously?!
Just stick to the subject. We all know what a principle is. On the one hand your critique others who follow the
principle of astrology as given by authors on the subject (principles which are subsequently verified by theindividual) saying that this is for example "parrotting" others. Then in the next breath you say that it's not a
random choice of what we want - implying there is an objective rationale.
So what? It's just the objective rationale YOU give us and not trained and experienced authors on the subject?
Is this NOT just it being what you want after all?
Let's just return to the issue at hand, astrology and the house that may rule it (rule being the terminology
given in the title)
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #308 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:42 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 25.08.2011 at 21:01 [UT+1]:
Oh dear, some people love to dish it out don't they, like throwing rotten potatoes & stew from dubious sources on to peoples faces,
perhaps on people who don't like that kind of cuisine, either.
Shame they can't take it back isn't it ? If only they could get it into their simple heads that if you are rude & hostile to other people,
chances are someone is going to dish it back to you.
A certain person said he would not post his chart on this forum, not just because of me interpreting it, but others here too.
He whined something about casting pearls to swine. What is he doing on here, anyone know ?
Well now, if that is not a direct insult to other members here I do not know what is.
He constantly undermines others on here in a directly or non direct blatantly hostile manner, yet threatens to report people who give him agood dose of his poison back.
One word. Hypocrite.

Not really.
I saw most of that exchange including the specific part you just mentioned. You called him stupid then asked tosee his chart, at which point he declined by saying he doesn't cast pearls to swine. Honestly, after the way you'd
flamed him before that I honestly can't blame him for not wanting to show you a thing. You went way over theline and got really out of control and nasty to someone who hadn't done anything to you other than disagree,and you're still doing it, referring to people as 'dirt'. Not cool. I didn't use to have anything against you andactually thought you were okay, and I agree with your astrology thoughts in that thread, but after seeing thelows you sink to, I really can't view you with any degree of respect anymore or take anything you say seriously.
Honestly, you owe him an apology and it's disgusting and shameful how there's so many older adults here whoshould setting an example for us as far as what kind of astrologers and what kind of people to be, but insteadchoose to be so vile, immature, petty, rude and hateful. You know the world is going straight to hell in a
handbasket when you have to remind your elders how to be decent people.
Fucking shameful.
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #309 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:45 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:26 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 11:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 10:55 [UT+1]:

Erm nobody is asking you to place the universe physcially onto a planet.
Can you place all the wars that have ever been fought onto Mars? No? But
Mars still rules war. Venus rules relationships. mercury rules
communication. Saturn rules restrictions.
Similarly Mercury rules astrology. Not difficult.
over simplification of a system that you consciously accept with ommited pertainent
information, will lead you to nowhere. goodluck

Yup, that's the system. I don't rewrite it. I just learn it and use it. When you do you'd be
surprised just what you can do with it.

again you are displaying a deficiency in comprehension. you have constantly said things that are not true,
parroting what you have read without understanding the implications. you actually wonder why i call you aperson that is intelectually challenged? i will deflect a statement you have passed upon my being, "you do
not fully grasp or understand."

Just because he's not giving you the answer you want to hear, doesn't make him stupid.

another "learned" joins the circus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle
Principle
and the effective operation or use of which would be impossible if any one of the principles was to be ignored
astrology is based upon a principle. it is not a random choice of what we want but a structured system for a particular use.

Nothing you say is even worthy of reading in its entirety and thinking about because you haven't even mastered
the basics of how to treat other human beings with respect. Until you do that what you say has no more
importance or worth to me than dog crap on the bottom of a shoe, frankly.
Go Wiki how to be a better person, because it's obviously time for you to make a change, Changling.
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MaryD

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #310 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 26.08.2011 at 12:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
you obviously have not been paying attention. read the thread again and pay notice to the assumptions that yourprestigious one makes. if we all followed blindly we would all be making the same

assumptions and fall into the same traps.

I'm all for thinking outside the box, but unless you remember which box we are thinking outside of, and refer back to in order for your'original thought' to make sense in the context of the box.....well then, your just sprouting reactive, imaginary, irrelevant bullshit.

Posts: 1258

Which would be fine if you weren't starting every post with 'if you can't grasp...', a insulting (if ludicrous) put-down, because no one but

Gender:you can make sense of your out-there meanderings. It's like you are trying to make yourself feel important or something.

Lynne, I couldn't agree more.

Chang*Ling,
What I have noticed in this thread and in others is that many people, yourself included, will read what theywant to read, and often make assumptions based on misinterpretation. eg, you misinterpreted my posts andthen assumed that Paul is Quote:your prestigious one

I don't believe I implied this anywhere
I understand very well how easily misunderstandings and misinterpretations can occur on forums when our
voice lacks tone.

I too am learning, and the likes of the so called 'traditional gang' have shed so much light for me on thefoundations of astrology for which I'm very thankful, for a while I was feeling dissolution with modern western
astrology and switched back and forth to Vedic, where the traditional practices are still in tact and respected.
I have been 'getting back to basics' so to say, I have been applying what I'm learning to the charts I have and
I'm impressed, that's not to say that I ignore outer planets, not at all, but these are collective planets, notpersonal and I don't think the traditional rulers should be overlooked or pushed aside because its easier thanactually learning and understanding the complete nature of the 5 personal planets excluding luminaries.
Btw, I pay attention when attention is due

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #311 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 12:45 [UT+1]:
Nothing you say is even worthy of reading in its entirety and thinking about because you haven't even mastered the basics
of how to treat other human beings with respect. Until you do that what you say has no more importance or worth to me
than dog crap on the bottom of a shoe, frankly.
Go Wiki how to be a better person, because it's obviously time for you to make a change, Changling.

i will take your pointed interest in my well being kindly. read about projection bias.

...Ah, the tired "I'm rubber you're glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" argument.
The one people use when they're full of crap and they know it and they have nothing else to say other thantrying to attempt a mindfuck.
Try that crap on someone who actually gives a damn about you and what you think.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #312 - on: 26.08.2011 at 12:58 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:53 [UT+1]:
then stop butting in where your interests do not lie.

I'll butt in wherever I damned well please. Especially when it's a case of one member trying to bully anotherwho did nothing to them. What, did you think you'd be able to just sit there and prey on people and that noone would say anything?
You're hilarious.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #313 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:03 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:53 [UT+1]:
then stop butting in where your interests do not lie.

Then stop trying your damned hardest to distract this thread from the astrology. This is about which house to
assign astrology to, with, as a subtext to that, which planet might equally be assigned to astrology.
I've tried answering all your questions, believing naively, that they were asked in earnest. I've since realised that
I was foolish for taking your questions to be honest. It's now the case the the thread has veered wildly off
course.
Let's try to get it back on track and summarise.
I believe that astrology, like all divination, can be assigned the 9th house.
You believe that astrology cannot be assigned to any house.
Further, I believe that if we have to pick a planet to represent astrologers, that Mercury seems appropriate.
I am unsure if you believe Uranus is more appropriate or not.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #314 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:09 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:53 [UT+1]:
then stop butting in where your interests do not lie.
dear marydaze,in my discourse of questioning the heading, i was snubbed by certain people that refuted blamkly about my inquiry. i persisted and itcame about that even though my discourse was meadering, allowing for my adjustment and others responce, we came to the conclusionthat houses in general do not rule anything as such.
seems that others join the bandwagon and believe my intention is one of disruption and a blind acceptance of certain peoples rhetoric
should mot be questioned. i do not care to lead, it is not my nature , but i will refute anybody that decides to say things that are notbased upon sound logic and principle. it seems that thise that are engaging in this thread are pointed against me for the favor of another,hence my wording "prestigious one" this was not pointed at any individual but the group that has taken the stance.

Let me offer up a little Chang-Chang translation for all you observers doing the headscratch out there.
" i will refute anybody that decides to say things that are not based upon sound logic and principle"
Translation :"I will browbeat and insult the holy shit out of anyone who doesn't agree with me. Because I'm right and I'malways right and you ignorant masses need me, the All-Mighty Changling, to enlighten you and put you on theright path. Wash mah feet with yer hurr."

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #315 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:10 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 12:58 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:53 [UT+1]:
then stop butting in where your interests do not lie.

I'll butt in wherever I damned well please. Especially when it's a case of one member trying to bully another who did
nothing to them. What, did you think you'd be able to just sit there and prey on people and that no one would sayanything?
You're hilarious.

Until you do that what you say has no more importance or worth to me than dog crap on the bottom of a shoe, frankly.
if you still reply then the dog crap on your shoe will believe in its own importance.

Nah. Expressing annoyance at having dog excrement on your rad ballet flats doesn't mean you particularly careabout the poop or even find it memorable.
Don't flatter yourself, honey bunny.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #316 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:13 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:07 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:03 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 12:53 [UT+1]:
then stop butting in where your interests do not lie.

Then stop trying your damned hardest to distract this thread from the astrology. This is about which house to assign
astrology to, with, as a subtext to that, which planet might equally be assigned to astrology.
I've tried answering all your questions, believing naively, that they were asked in earnest. I've since realised that I was
foolish for taking your questions to be honest. It's now the case the the thread has veered wildly off course.
Let's try to get it back on track and summarise.
I believe that astrology, like all divination, can be assigned the 9th house.
You believe that astrology cannot be assigned to any house.
Further, I believe that if we have to pick a planet to represent astrologers, that Mercury seems appropriate.
I am unsure if you believe Uranus is more appropriate or not.

paul, i do not feign being earnest. if you believe you can assign a planet to rule astrology, then why hasnt it been done by the traditionists
before.

I am not a 'traditionalist', I use both traditional and modern astrological ideas.
In any event, tradition indicates that astrologers DID use Mercury for astrologers. You seem ignorant of the
tradition of astrology.
For example, if you have Christian Astrology by WIlliam Lilly you will see that he associates all kinds ofinterpreters of symbolism and thinkers to Mercury, astrologers, like mathematicians, philosphers, poets anddiviners are all included. In fact, EXPLICITLY included.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #317 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:15 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:12 [UT+1]:
i see the stench offends you that you cannot ignore it. my challenge is logical. i have been proven to be fallible before. but using
emotional based arguement or for that matter credential based, it does not wash the crap from your shoes.

We're all fallible. HOwever, your arguments as put forth here are not logical. Unfortunately I find myself totallyunequipped to argue against illogical arguments. I have no experience of it. I'm used to people being able tofollow basic logic, even if it takes a while to spell it out.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #318 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:21 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:17 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:13 [UT+1]:

In any event, tradition indicates that astrologers DID use Mercury for astrologers. You seem ignorant of the

tradition of astrology.
For example, if you have Christian Astrology by WIlliam Lilly you will see that he associates all kinds of interpreters ofsymbolism and thinkers to Mercury, astrologers, like mathematicians, philosphers, poets and diviners are all included. In
fact, EXPLICITLY included.
your veiled implications are not welcome. egyptian astrology/myth says it is the moon.

There was nothing veiled. I said you seem ignorant of the tradition. That remains true.
That other cultures used other planets does not mean that Mercury was not traditionally linked withastrologers.
The problem is that your choice of words is very very vague, traditional could be anything from a hundred years
ago, to a thousand years ago, or, in your case, several thousand.
I've no doubt that the ancient egyptians used the Moon to relate to astrology, as well as Mercury, and for all I
know the Incans used something else, though I would add that the subject is slightly more nebulous owing to
the huge span of history that we commonly simply refer to as 'egyptian'.
But let's at least agree that when we're talking about astrology we're dealing particularly with Western
astrology.
And when we're talking about traditinoal astrology we're talking from the Hellenistic times onwards.
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Lynne

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #319 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:30 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:19 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:15 [UT+1]:
We're all fallible. HOwever, your arguments as put forth here are not logical. Unfortunately I find myself totallyunequipped to argue against illogical arguments. I have no experience of it. I'm used to people being able to follow basic
logic, even if it takes a while to spell it out.
again your implication is unwelcome. there are many types of logic and all are valid as being logical.

Gawd, now your shape-shifting the word 'logic'...the irony of it is making me twitchy.
Quote:
egyptian astrology/myth says it is the moon.

If you'd said that way back upteen pages ago, instead of couching it in some mysterious fluff that implied it
was your own idea....we'd all be on more solid ground here.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #320 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:37 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:29 [UT+1]:
and this board is Psychological and General Astrology

Then don't pass comment on what traditional astrology is or isn't if you don't know.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #321 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:41 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:32 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lynne on 26.08.2011 at 13:30 [UT+1]:

If you'd said that way back upteen pages ago, instead of couching it in some mysterious fluff that implied it was your own
idea....we'd all be on more solid ground here.

Quote from chang*ling on 25.08.2011 at 13:29 [UT+1]:
Mutable Moon imparts strong communicative abilities, leading either through speech or example
why is the question.
thoth, the diety of the moon springs to mind.
Thoth was often considered to be the heart—which, according to the ancient Egyptians, is the seat of intelligence or the mind—and tongueof the sun god Ra, as well as the means by which Ra's will was translated into speech

I didn't bother correcting this at the time, but the problem with this is that actually Isis is the moon goddess ofthe egyptians.
Thoth was the god most associated with Mercury.
Thoth, when understood by the Greeks, was Hermes Trimegistus, whose latin translation comes back to thederivative of Mercury.
In fact, most people associate Thoth with Mercury. So actually if you want to run with that argument you'll
actually strengthen the use of Mercury for astrologers.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #322 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:46 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:09 [UT+1]:"I will browbeat and insult the holy shit out of anyone who doesn't agree with me. Because I'm right and I'm always rightand you ignorant masses need me, the All-Mighty Changling, to enlighten you and put you on the right path. Wash mahfeet with yer hurr."

i see the stench offends you that you cannot ignore it. my challenge is logical. i have been proven to be fallible before. but using
emotional based arguement or for that matter credential based, it does not wash the crap from your shoes.

Quote:i have been proven to be fallible before.

Oh, that much I definitely believe.
Look, I know you probably think the sun rises and sets out of your ass, and that it's always all about you andall eyes are always on you () but this isn't about your specifically. It's about your behavior and treatment ofother members, especially someone like Paul, who is actually a good guy and doesn't deserve any of the crap
you've been giving him, especially when he respectfully disagreed with you.
And you can prattle on about 'emotional based arguments' all day but the fact of the matter is, that someone
who isn't emotionally-invested and ego-invested in a discussion, doesn't sit there for days ramming it down
another person's throat, ultimately resorting to personal insults once they realize they can't make the otherperson fall in line with their way of thinking; and that's exactly what you did. Your challenge is logical, but only
to yourself, since it's a part of your faith. Your comments honestly make about as much sense as a Satanist
going up to a Christian and insisting that the Devil is awesome and they should worship him, during a
conversation about gardening. Just because it works for you and you consider the two connected, doesn't meanthat it's right for everyone else and that they have to adhere to tjat just to pacify you, and furthermore it's
actually completely irrelevant to the discussion for anyone other than yourself. But you don't care right?
Because it's all about what you think and what you want and what you say is the 'right' way.
You need to grow the hell up and get over yourself.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #323 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:29 [UT+1]:
and this board is Psychological and General Astrology

Oh, please. You've been peddling your religion for pages now, this discussion stopped being about astrology alongggg time ago so you nagging anyone about staying on topic is absolutely hysterical.
Hell, Paul just had to remind you a few posts back that this is an astrology discussion. The time you spend
wondering about other people's intellect and comprehension processes might be better spent pondering yourown, because it's looking like something up there just isn't computing. *points to your skull*
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #324 - on: 26.08.2011 at 13:56 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:29 [UT+1]:
and this board is Psychological and General Astrology

Oh, please. You've been peddling your religion for pages now, this discussion stopped being about astrology a longggg time
ago so you nagging anyone about staying on topic is absolutely hysterical.
Hell, Paul just had to remind you a few posts back that this is an astrology discussion. The time you spend wondering
about other people's intellect and comprehension processes might be better spent pondering your own, because it's looking
like something up there just isn't computing. *points to your skull*your astrological point. hey paul heres another that deviates from the subject matter.

You helped contribute to taking this thread off topic and straight to hell pages ago. Like I said, you have noright to try and lecture anybody for that right now.
Honestly at this point you would really just make out a lot better if you acknowledged and admitted you wereout of line in how you treated people and apologized. But as it stands it looks like you're determined to justkeep talking crap and being a jerk and ultimately alienating more and more people in the process....?
And you said Paul is the dim bulb in this situation?
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #325 - on: 26.08.2011 at 14:08 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 14:04 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:56 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 26.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 13:29 [UT+1]:
and this board is Psychological and General Astrology

Oh, please. You've been peddling your religion for pages now, this discussion stopped being
about astrology a longggg time ago so you nagging anyone about staying on topic is absolutely
hysterical.
Hell, Paul just had to remind you a few posts back that this is an astrology discussion. The time
you spend wondering about other people's intellect and comprehension processes might bebetter spent pondering your own, because it's looking like something up there just isn't
computing. *points to your skull*your astrological point. hey paul heres another that deviates from the subject matter.

You helped contribute to taking this thread off topic and straight to hell pages ago. Like I said, you have no right to try
and lecture anybody for that right now.
Honestly at this point you would really just make out a lot better if you acknowledged and admitted you were out of line in
how you treated people and apologized. But as it stands it looks like you're determined to just keep talking crap and beinga jerk and ultimately alienating more and more people in the process....?
And you said Paul is the dim bulb in this situation?

you are living proof of the the principles inherent in the planet mercury.

Oh, pssshhhh. *puts my arm around you*
Don't be sore. Hey look, you can always check and see if there's a forum on the Tsarion site. I'm sure they'dwelcome your schtick with open arms.
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IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #326 - on: 26.08.2011 at 14:20 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 14:07 [UT+1]:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobbning
Mobbning (även kränkande särbehandling) innebär att en eller flera personer utsätts för systematiska trakasserier inom en social grupp.

But is it bullying, or is it one person being so wilfully irritating that that several people start pulling their hairout in frustration?
Different universes I guess.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #327 - on: 26.08.2011 at 15:01 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 14:20 [UT+1]:
You helped contribute to taking this thread off topic
i helped people see the heading was misleading.(or do they still view this with an understanding of, i know what is meant)Believe me, you didn't help clarify anything, all you did was try to confuse an issue that was actually quite clear
and easy to understand by everyone before you tried interjecting with your pseudo-spiritual beliefs, ending
ultimately in your inability to logically articulate your points so you'd nothing left to fall back on but to resort
to trying to intimidate people through insults and name calling.
Along the way you also managed to grossly misunderstand basic traditional astrology and went so far as tocontradict somenoe who actually uses traditional astrology every day (despite your lack of understanding of it)
and then went on to completely misunderstand basic egyptian deities whilst you contradicted and counterargued against otehrs who probably did actually know something about them.
In other words you, despite your ignorance in all these subject matters, still feel fit to blindly argue against
others who presumably know more about it than you do, and, when faced with counter challenges to yourpoints, rather than deal with them in a logical manner, chose instead to call them 'blind' and 'idiots' and 'stupid'- all beacuse of your own inarticulacy to communicate a clear counter argument.
Of course we're all entitled to our opinions, but we reveal our ignorance when we make statements like "whydidn't traditionalists use Mercury to rule astrologers then!?", when actually they DID use Mercury to rule
astrology. Clearly you're not as knowledgeable on these subjects as you'd like to believe you are. You're entitledto your opinions, use whatever house or not you want toa ssign astrology to, but it's a little rich to havesomeone who knows it would seem, next to nothing about traditinoal astrology, to use traditional astrology aspart of your rationale.
lesson to be learned? Agree to disagree, don't name-call and insult others and then suggest that people whoknow more about a subject than you do are stupid because they disagree with you.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #328 - on: 26.08.2011 at 15:15 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 15:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 23.08.2011 at 09:13 [UT+1]:

Houses can be said to rule everything in life

Quote from Ed Falis on 17.08.2011 at 21:26 [UT+1]:
No house rules astrology.

Quote from rookish on 25.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
Houses do not rule anything.
Quote from ZappoII on 18.08.2011 at 21:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Horisont on 18.08.2011 at 21:50 [UT+1]:
Did anyone ever figure out which house rules astrology in this thread? I've been skipping read it with great
disinterest.

a house doesn't really "rule" astrology - or anything else. Planets rule things.

THe difference is that they didn't use pseudo-logical nonsense to explain why.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #329 - on: 26.08.2011 at 15:23 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 15:19 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 15:15 [UT+1]:
THe difference is that they didn't use pseudo-logical nonsense to explain why.

whatever floats your boat. i just hope you can understand what is put in my previous post. some forum members hold onto what you aresaying with out question. it is not to be encouraged.

And nobody has encouraged it.
In any event I doubt it. Most people have no problem whatsoever in disagreeing with me. I think you shouldn't
be so patronising to think that other forum members but you can think for themselves. All you need to do isfollow my posts to see many people disagreeing with me about different things. And yes, some people agreewith me too. Such is life, it's how it should be. You're not the only person who believes they can think forthemselves. I genuinely don't think you realise how condescending that sounds - to think that other forum
members are blind sheep who would just follow something I say, but what, not follow blindly what you say?
Why do you think other forum members can't think for themselves?
When dealing with absolute beignners on this issue I always try to give both sides of an issue and then state
what my own preference is. Just the other day someone new to astrology asked me what planet rules astrology
and I told them that many modern astrologers believe it to be Uranus and traditional astrologers believe it to
be Mercury and then I gave my rationale as I understand it for both and then my preference. Don't use yourself
as a barometer to judge the rest of us with.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #330 - on: 26.08.2011 at 15:34 [UT+1] »This thread is really schizophrenic. Since we're posting random Wikipedia links, I encourage everyone to readthis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volleyball
Posts: 1210
Gender:Back to top
IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #331 - on: 26.08.2011 at 15:35 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 15:30 [UT+1]:
dear paul,look back at the mess, it was you that disagreed with my questioning the heading and then your statement. you diecided to stick to yourguns and tried all types of manipulation to make people believe that it was i that was wrong.
ive learnt things along the way about traditional methods concerning houses and this was my intent involving myself in this debate.
thanks.

Actually I never try to tell people what other people believe is wrong. Instead what I did was defend my own
points aganist your counter rebuttals which quickly turned from astrological to personal insults. You pretended
to get confused about the word 'rules' which was used in this heading. I don't see why you make such a dramaout of it, but whatever, it apparently has something to do with your spiritual belief system or something.
If your intent was to learn about traditinoal methods then a better approach would be to ask about theminstead of making unfounded statements about them and wait until someone like me had to correct you forthem.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #332 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:07 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:00 [UT+1]:
i contested about making unfounded statements like houses rule everything in life

This isn't unfounded, it's a basic tenet of astrology. Now whether the word 'rule' or 'signify 'is better I leave up
to you. Do you disagree that all things in life can be 'signified' rather than be ruled by a house?
Quote:
although i do use a huge base of reference which includes spirituality and religion. each time i make such reference, i am, without
foundation accused of trying to preach my philosophies, etc etc.

Religion? yeah like Thoth is the Moon god of Egypt?
Anyway you actually just said that you don't try to preach your philosophies and STRAIGHT follownig that, go
ahead and preach your philosphies:
Quote:
collective unconsciousness causes religious phobia and this is because of denial.

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #333 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:19 [UT+1] »I'm not sure where it's explicitly said that the Moon itself ruled astrology in Ancient Egypt. Sure there's a link
between Thoth as a Moon god and Mercury Trismegitus, but I'm not aware of ANY non-Hellenistic Egyptian
astrological texts for horoscopic astrology - let alone explicit statements that the Moon ruled astrology inAncient Egypt. Not saying they don't exist or never existed, but we don't have them now.
Posts: 1210
Gender:Anything else is just guesswork.

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #334 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:24 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 16:19 [UT+1]:
I'm not sure where it's explicitly said that the Moon itself ruled astrology in Ancient Egypt. Sure there's a link between
Thoth as a Moon god and Mercury Trismegitus, but I'm not aware of ANY non-Hellenistic Egyptian astrological texts forhoroscopic astrology - let alone explicit statements that the Moon ruled astrology in Ancient Egypt. Not saying they don'tPosts: 1210
Gender:exist or never existed, but we don't have them now.
Anything else is just guesswork.
something for philosophical debate.

Umm ok...
I'd think making a statement that the Moon ruled astrology was more than just philosophical, but ok.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #335 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:28 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 16:07 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:00 [UT+1]:
i contested about making unfounded statements like houses rule everything in life

This isn't unfounded, it's a basic tenet of astrology. Now whether the word 'rule' or 'signify 'is better I leave up to you. Do
you disagree that all things in life can be 'signified' rather than be ruled by a house?
Quote:
although i do use a huge base of reference which includes spirituality and religion. each time i make suchreference, i am, without foundation accused of trying to preach my philosophies, etc etc.

Religion? yeah like Thoth is the Moon god of Egypt?
Anyway you actually just said that you don't try to preach your philosophies and STRAIGHT follownig that, go ahead andpreach your philosphies:
Quote:
collective unconsciousness causes religious phobia and this is because of denial.

it is not my philosophy but something i pulled from the internet. explains my predicament that i find myself in sometimes. the same as
the way you reacted right now.
http://phobias.about.com/od/introductiontophobias/a/religionphobias.htm
you will never give up your belief that houses rule will you? even after all the debate. now thats religion.

No, it is your philosophy as you stated it as a truth, it doesen't matter where you plagiarised it from, if you
believe it it's your philosophy.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #336 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 16:24 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 16:19 [UT+1]:
I'm not sure where it's explicitly said that the Moon itself ruled astrology in Ancient Egypt. Sure there's alink between Thoth as a Moon god and Mercury Trismegitus, but I'm not aware of ANY non-Hellenistic
Egyptian astrological texts for horoscopic astrology - let alone explicit statements that the Moon ruled
astrology in Ancient Egypt. Not saying they don't exist or never existed, but we don't have them now.
Anything else is just guesswork.
something for philosophical debate.

Umm ok...
I'd think making a statement that the Moon ruled astrology was more than just philosophical, but ok.

It is no philosophical to state that Astrology was ruled by the Moon deity in egypt, and so therefore Astrology
is ruled by the Moon. That's not 'a philosophical debate', that's a statement. Thoth was definitely linked to theMoon in Egypt, but he was not the moon deity. And when, in hellenistic times, it was synthesised with the restof what we use as astrology, they assigned it to Mercury rather than the Moon. This isn't something to 'debate
philosophically'.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #337 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:42 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 16:24 [UT+1]:

I'd think making a statement that the Moon ruled astrology was more than just philosophical, but ok.

Posts: 1210
Gender:enlil, i have become wary of expounding upon my thoughts because i have been mis interpretated and accused. but for amusement,
heres one for all the phobics.

the body is the product of lunar forces and that the position of the Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is the Moon's
position at conception.
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm

That is also said in many traditional texts, but that has nothing to do with saying that the Egyptians said
astrology was ruled by the Moon.
What you are talking about is the ascendant which signifies the body, as does the Moon.
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #338 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 16:42 [UT+1]:
What you are talking about is the ascendant which signifies the body, as does the Moon.

Changling has a problem with more than one thing 'ruling' or being assigned something.
Fact is that the Ascendant, its lord and the Moon all relate to the body.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #339 - on: 26.08.2011 at 16:50 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 16:47 [UT+1]:
product indicates a materialization. from the ether to the material world. would not this be the same for language?

No it doesen't. Product means to produce meaning to carry forth, or bring forth.
Matter, a la mater/mother, means to bring from the ether to the material world - material being of course tehroot of mater/matter.
For someoen obsessed with etymology you do use it bizarrely.
And whilst the Moon has a lot to say about this subject, so too might Saturn depending on your viewpoint.
Both materialise.
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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #340 - on: 26.08.2011 at 17:35 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1]:
Changling has a problem with more than one thing 'ruling' or being assigned something.
Fact is that the Ascendant, its lord and the Moon all relate to the body.

Posts: 1210
Gender:Feels like I'm trying to explain philosophy to a broken record trying to play Elvis.

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #341 - on: 26.08.2011 at 20:33 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 10:41 [UT+1]:
NObody has yet said WHY Uranus should be used though, as far as I can recall. I've asked a few times, but it gets ignored.

Well, clearly it's because astrology is an integral part of the uranian transformation of the world culture into the
new Aquarian Age.
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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #342 - on: 26.08.2011 at 20:47 [UT+1] »Interest was expressed, so here are Some Early Sources Naming Mercury as the Ruler of Astrology and Astrologers [all words in bold or
underlined are my emphases]:

Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, (2nd century CE), tr. Robbins, Bk IV, Chap. 4: [He states that the 'quality ofaction' (profession) is derived chiefly from one of three planets - Mars, Venus, or Mercury.]""Thus, then, we shall determine the planet that governs action. The quality of the action, however, is to bediscerned from the character of the three planets, Mars, Venus, and Mercury, and from that of the signs
through which they happen appear to be passing. For if Mercury governs action, to speak generally, he makes
his subjects scribes, men of business, calculators, teachers, merchants, bankers, soothsayers, astrologers,
sacrificers, and in general those who perform their functions by means of documents, interpretation, and giving
and taking. And if Saturn testifies to him, they will be managers of the property of others, interpreters of
dreams, or frequenters of temples for the purpose of prophecies and inspiration. If it is Jupiter that witnesses,
they will be law-makers, orators, sophists, who enjoy familiarity with great persons."

Abu Ma'shar: The Abbreviation of the Introduction to Astrology (9th century CE), tr. Burnett:"It indicates divinity, revelation to prophets, trustworthiness, intellect, speaking, rumors; the various sciences:calculation, surveying, geometry, astrology, omens by birds, sorcery, rhetoric, poetry, the art of writing, poetic
anthologies . . ."al-Biruni: The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology (11th century CE), tr.
Ramsay Wright:"Merchants, calculators and surveyors, astrologers, necromancers and fortune-tellers, geometrician,philosopher [z: the switch to the singular for the last two is in the text - don't blame me!], disputation, poetry,
eloquence, manual dexterity and anxiety for perfection in everything [z: See? Mercury does rule Virgo!] . . ."Ibn Ezra: The Beginning of Wisdom (12th century CE), tr. Epstein:"In his share of human nature are speech, intelligence, education, wisdom, science of the stars, divination,
all sorts of magic, eloquence, accuracy of language, fast talk, ability to recite and rhyme, knowledge ofhidden secrets and prophecy . . . "Back to top
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #343 - on: 26.08.2011 at 21:26 [UT+1] »"We don't need no steenking facts"!

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ZappoIIEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #344 - on: 26.08.2011 at 21:33 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 21:28 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ed Falis on 26.08.2011 at 21:26 [UT+1]:"We don't need no steenking facts"!
maybe my not normal behaviour should rather been seen as being perverse.

Come on, people!
I had to wade through 4 miserably agonizing pages in order to come up to date with this thread, and now we'reback to bizarre replies.
Is it time for this discussion to fade with the sunset?
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #345 - on: 26.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1] »It surely seems to be heading over the cliff.

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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #346 - on: 27.08.2011 at 06:55 [UT+1] »Can I check my understanding? C is co sig of 6 along w f; which it rules. F 9 co sig w i, ruler of i too.
Is this one of Mercury's tricks? http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury5.html
Thought provoking thread.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #347 - on: 27.08.2011 at 08:29 [UT+1] »http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThothThe Egyptians credited him as the author of all works of science, religion, philosophy, and magic. The Greeks
further declared him the inventor of astronomy, astrology, the science of numbers, mathematics, geometry,land surveying, medicine, botany, theology, civilized government, the alphabet, reading, writing, and oratory.
They further claimed he was the true author of every work of every branch of knowledge, human and divine.
Thoth's qualities also led to him being identified by the Greeks with their closest matching god Hermes, withwhom Thoth was eventually combined, as Hermes Trismegistus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
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if you read the mythology surrounding thoth, he was replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods., Anubis
was merged with the Greek god Hermes, becoming Hermanubis.
the diety of the moon, thoth was the voice piece of Ra's will, later replaced by Anubis, the messenger of thegods.
modern psychological based astrology which has turned back to the root, to base the astrology on the moon,whilst traditionalists still using methods given by the workings of astrology based on mercury, has caused a
split that is seen as contentious and unresolvable.
the world chart, thema mundi is the teaching tool used to introduce aspiring practioners of astrology, has moonas the ruler. this chart is about natural rulership.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury5.html
Mercurius's finest trick is to convince us each to wrap ourselves, ever tighter, in a world of our own imagining.
sarvam khalv idam brahma

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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #348 - on: 27.08.2011 at 10:02 [UT+1] »The astrologers, philosophers alchemists or who ever else proclaimed mercury as the ruler of astrology were atleast technically, not aware of O. It was 1781 on march 13 that it was 'seen' for the first time, people started
to become more conscious of it's influence thereafter, though most of the people were / are affected ingenerational ways, being too dense to tune into it's energy. I think many people can seem to have O active or
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Gender:seemingly dormant in their charts, but the energy of O can be difficult to interpret, esp by astrologers who aredetermined to give the credit of it's qualities to another planet altogether.
Though it's influence was probably felt in centuries gone by, the astrologers had no dense planet they could
see with their eyes or telescopes, so they naturally applied everything to do with the esoteric to C. If they had
been aware of O I doubt they would have said C ruled astrology.
So they might be "steenking facts" as Ed points out, but they were facts from people who were not aware of
the hidden or unseen influence of O, so they gave all the credit to C. They could see C after all, & were
probably wanting to prove their claims to each other by pointing out at something tangible in the sky. They
could see it, it was real. It could be held accountable for all to do with the occult.
That does seem laughable somehow that the seers, astrologers, & alchemists of old claimed they were able tohandle the unseen forces or energies but were unaware of the influence ofO. They were limited to C's orbit. Still are probably.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #349 - on: 27.08.2011 at 10:28 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 08:29 [UT+1]:
modern psychological based astrology which has turned back to the root, to base the astrology on the moon, whilst traditionalists stillusing methods given by the workings of astrology based on mercury, has caused a split that is seen as contentious and unresolvable.

Which psychological astrologers use the moon?
Quote:
the world chart, thema mundi is the teaching tool used to introduce aspiring practioners of astrology, has moon as the ruler. this chart isabout natural rulership.

Can you clarify? Are you saying the thema Mundi shows moon as ruler of astrology?
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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #350 - on: 27.08.2011 at 10:41 [UT+1] »It's all interesting. Even I can overcome my limitations and begin to appreciate Cornelius now. Maybe thisdebate has helped, as I was behind the psychological approach just based on early readings...
Monism is the thing that science, the Church, and "professional intellectuals taking their mandate from the
Enlightenment" -Moment of Astrology- have been using against astrology, calling it superstition. But thenastrologers too get into monism. Postmodern and pagan, a meeting that needs some patience to handle. All
contributions help in this axial period.
There is something to Uranus, for sure, but then there is a lot to Mercury too. They can each come to theforeground like in painting. The moon as well can, as in Yeats, become a central metaphor for understandinglife.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #351 - on: 27.08.2011 at 10:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 17:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1]:
Changling has a problem with more than one thing 'ruling' or being assigned something.
Fact is that the Ascendant, its lord and the Moon all relate to the body.

Feels like I'm trying to explain philosophy to a broken record trying to play Elvis.

And I'm sure Paul feels like an Oxford professor trying to explain physics to a dim-witted four year old.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #352 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:04 [UT+1] »Okay, I have a question here. *raises hand*Well, there's been a lot - a lot - of really prominent, respected astrologers over the decades, who definitely
knew a lot about astrology, who don't practice symbology, or any form of esoterica, and would look at you
people like you have two heads if you mentioned Thema Mundi. I've read the work of a lot of really brilliant
astrologers, and none of them mention any of that stuff in relation to astrology - at all. Not even once.
Why is that? I mean, since you guys insist that astrology and your metaphysical religions are one and the sameor that at the very least, no one can be a competent astrologer without adhering to them.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #353 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1] »if paul does not know the difference between the words "assign" and "rule", then i rest my case. as forsymbology,dren, i again sigh as to understand what the people are believing when astrology is all about "signs",
which the very mention indicates symbols.
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish tofurther the madness caused by the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions
pertaining to this thread. i have said my piece and thats the way it stands.

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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #354 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
if paul does not know the difference between the words assign and rule, then i rest my case. as for symbology,dren, i again sigh as tounderstand what the f''k people are believing when astrology is based upon signs, which the very mention indicates symbols.
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish to further the madness causedby the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions pertaining to this thread. i have said my piece and thats they
way it stands.
do not inflame me anymore than you already have.

Actually I've been popping in watching this play out and it seems to me like his handle on vocabulary is prettysolid, he's just not fluent in Tsarionboolsheetology.
Extracted yourself? You haven't left this thread and gone anywhere, you've been here this whole time. He posts
and like sixty seconds later you're on his back again. I've never seen someone post so quickly after anotherperson before in my life.
And the rest of what you said is irrelevant, and I noticed you never answered the question. Okay, I've read a lotof astrologers. Hickey, Liz Greene and Howard Sasaportas, Jeff Green, Reinhart, Oken, Cunningham, Sakoian &Acker... those are just some of the ones I have piled up on the shelves in my closet, right now. And absolutely
none of them has ever said "You need to learn symbology and Thema Mundi in order to undestand astrology
and be a good astrologer". Not even Jeff Green, who is clearly into a lot of the new-age metaphysical stuff you
are. He never ever everrrrr says you need it in order to grasp astrology and that they're one and the same ordependent upon one another. None of the really good astrologers do.
Why is that?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #355 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:31 [UT+1] »maybe you should ask your therapist.

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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #356 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:34 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:31 [UT+1]:
maybe you should ask your therapist.

Point proven. You can't even answer the question so, like usual, you resort to personal attacks.
I think I'll stick to the words of astrologers who actually have some idea what the hell they're talking about,
Chang-Chang.

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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #357 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:34 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:31 [UT+1]:
maybe you should ask your therapist.

Point proven. You can't even answer the question so, like usual, you resort to personal attacks.

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I think I'll stick to the words of astrologers who actually have some idea what the hell they're talking about, Chang-Chang.

Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 10:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 17:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1]:
Changling has a problem with more than one thing 'ruling' or being assigned something.
Fact is that the Ascendant, its lord and the Moon all relate to the body.

Feels like I'm trying to explain philosophy to a broken record trying to play Elvis.

And I'm sure Paul feels like an Oxford professor trying to explain physics to a dim-witted four
year old.

and this you said pointing at me. if you dont have a therapist then i could refer you to a clinical pychologist.
you should stick to whatever in hell you adhere to.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #358 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:43 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:34 [UT+1]:
you resort to personal attacks.

Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 10:59 [UT+1]:
And I'm sure Paul feels like an Oxford professor trying to explain physics to a dim-witted four year old.

and this you said pointing at me. if you dont have a therapist then i could refer you to a clinical pychologist.

Nice try my lil Chang-Chang, but he insulted Paul first. So did you, pages ago. Do you really want me to startgoing back into the thread quoting your own crap? I can just picture you now, racing to edit all your posts
before I get the chance....
You have noooo business calling anyone else a hypocrite. The fact that you even attempt to do so is absolutely
hilarious, especially after a few people had to confront you about your harassment and bullying of anothermember.
And with the temperamental rages you've been throwing in here, it might not be too off-base to recommend
you go see someone. But, let me guess - if you did and they tried to tell you anything, you'd just insist they
were wrong and that it was them that's the problem, right?
Can't teach an old dog a new trick.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #359 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:46 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 11:26 [UT+1]:
again you are displaying a deficiency in understanding. you have constantly said things that are
not true, parroting what you have read without understanding the implications. you actually
wonder why i call you a person that is intelectually challenged? i will deflect a statement you
have passed upon my being, "you do not fully grasp or understand."Pot, meet kettle.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #360 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:46 [UT+1] »why are you so inflammatory. i have asked you kindly to stop referencing me in this thread but you persist.
please refrain from doing so.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #361 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:49 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 26.08.2011 at 10:27 [UT+1]:
again you have lost consciousness, you mentioned divorce. idiot.

*whistling good-naturedly*
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #362 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:50 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:31 [UT+1]:
maybe you should ask your therapist.

Once again, when the chips are down, you resort to insults. Ad hominems are the mark of an inept debater.
Let's stick to the topic. Care to answer my questions?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #363 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1] »what is this? do you feel good now? does it help you in anyway? i bless you all.
as for the answering of questions, i ask you to give intellegent answers to refute my post.
from what i can tell, it is the heart that is emoting you to act they way you do, not the brain.

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #364 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:55 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:46 [UT+1]:
why are you so inflammatory. i have asked you kindly to stop referencing me in this thread but you persist. please refrain from doing so.

Ah, the whole 'victim' schtick now. It's always the same cycle with you internet bullies. Harass and berate thecrap out of someone, totally disrespect them. Then, when people start to hold you accountable for it, try to
bluff your way through it, talking tough, trying to intimidate more people. When that tactic goes down inflames, curl up into a fetal position on the floor and start whining, "Why are you being so meannnnn tomeeeeeee?"
The simple fact of the matter is, if you want to be treated with respect, you have to give it to others. Don't sit
there and blubber at me because you actually got back the negative energy you put out. I think even Tsarion
vids, Blavatsky and Bailey books would tell you *that* much.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #365 - on: 27.08.2011 at 11:59 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:55 [UT+1]:
Ah, the whole 'victim' schtick now. It's always the same cycle with you internet bullies. Harass and berate the crap out of someone,
totally disrespect them. Then, when people start to hold you accountable for it, try to bluff your way through it, talking tough, trying to
intimidate more people. When that tactic goes down in flames, curl up into a fetal position on the floor and start whining, "Why are you
being so meannnnn to meeeeeee?"
The simple fact of the matter is, if you want to be treated with respect, you have to give it to others. Don't sit there and blubber at me
because you actually got back the negative energy you put out. I think even Tsarion vids, Blavatsky and Bailey books would tell you*that* much.

Posts: 3624

the respect is flowing, depending on the direction of the river.
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #366 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:02 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:46 [UT+1]:
why are you so inflammatory. i have asked you kindly to stop referencing me in this thread but you persist.
please refrain from doing so.

Ah, the whole 'victim' schtick now. It's always the same cycle with you internet bullies. Harass and berate the crap out of
someone, totally disrespect them. Then, when people start to hold you accountable for it, try to bluff your way through it,talking tough, trying to intimidate more people. When that tactic goes down in flames, curl up into a fetal position on thefloor and start whining, "Why are you being so meannnnn to meeeeeee?"
The simple fact of the matter is, if you want to be treated with respect, you have to give it to others. Don't sit there andblubber at me because you actually got back the negative energy you put out. I think even Tsarion vids, Blavatsky andBailey books would tell you *that* much.

the respect is flowing, depending on the direction of the river.

Oh, don't hand me that bullshit. You've had other people confront you about your conduct towards Paul too, it
wasn't just me. And no one would have done that if he were the one who was hostile to you first.
"Now there’s a lesson to learn, respect’s not given, it’s earned" - Michael Jackson
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #367 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:03 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:02 [UT+1]:
Oh, don't hand me that bullshit. You've had other people confront you about your conduct towards Paul too, it wasn't just me. And no one
would have done that if he were the one who was hostile to you first.
"Now there’s a lesson to learn, respect’s not given, it’s earned" - Michael Jackson

you are funny.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #368 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:06 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:03 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:46 [UT+1]:
why are you so inflammatory. i have asked you kindly to stop referencing me inthis thread but you persist. please refrain from doing so.

Ah, the whole 'victim' schtick now. It's always the same cycle with you internet bullies. Harassand berate the crap out of someone, totally disrespect them. Then, when people start to holdyou accountable for it, try to bluff your way through it, talking tough, trying to intimidate more
people. When that tactic goes down in flames, curl up into a fetal position on the floor and startwhining, "Why are you being so meannnnn to meeeeeee?"
The simple fact of the matter is, if you want to be treated with respect, you have to give it toothers. Don't sit there and blubber at me because you actually got back the negative energy
you put out. I think even Tsarion vids, Blavatsky and Bailey books would tell you *that* much.

the respect is flowing, depending on the direction of the river.

Oh, don't hand me that bullshit. You've had other people confront you about your conduct towards Paul too, it wasn't justme. And no one would have done that if he were the one who was hostile to you first.
"Now there’s a lesson to learn, respect’s not given, it’s earned" - Michael Jackson

you are funny.

Funny, I've been thinking the same thing about you for the past few days now.
I'm sure I'm not the only one. You've done a jolly-fine job of making yourself the punchline of the astroboards, all by your lonesome, despite your instance that every person who came in here was scheming andmanipulating the situation towards those ends - which is, in and of itself, quite hilarious.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #369 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:07 [UT+1] »now rest my sweet, and enjoy the bliss of knowing who you are.

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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #370 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:07 [UT+1]:
now rest my sweet, and enjoy the bliss of knowing who you are.

Chang-Chang translation : "Are you leaving yet? I need time to find all the face I just lost."
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #371 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1]:
Chang-Chang translation : "Are you leaving yet? I need time to find all the face I just lost."

you are funny.

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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #372 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:07 [UT+1]:
now rest my sweet, and enjoy the bliss of knowing who you are.

Chang-Chang translation : "Are you leaving yet? I need time to find all the face I just lost."
you are funny.

Chang-Chang translation : "I'm completely out of shit to say now. I'll get them later when I think up some new
way to twist everything they just said."
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #373 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1] »i find the opposition of saturn towards the moon in the thema mundi interesting as it really is malefic in its
stance, being both negative and harmful in its effects.

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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #374 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:14 [UT+1] »Footnote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

re the idea of postmodern and pagan
metalog of debate over the two. terms get questioned as social construct etc...
another ancient was aeschylus who called for "peace beyond reason" so even if you feel anger let it go, others
read too with various opinions
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #375 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:14 [UT+1] »[quote author=Dren_ link=1313611892/360#372 date=1314443606]Quote from chang*ling on
27.08.2011 at 12:10 [UT+1]:
Chang-Chang translation : "I'm completely out of shit to say now. I'll get them later when I think up some new way to twist everything
they just said."

you do have exemplary talents that you should not let go to waste.

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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #376 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:16 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
i find the opposition of saturn towards the moon in the thema mundi interesting as it really is malefic in its stance, being both negativeand harmful in its effects.

Do me a favor, okay? If you ever, everrrrr, go to an astrology seminar given by any reputable astrologer, saysomething exactly like that. Definitely. Make sure you record their reaction and upload it to YouTube, too. I'dlove to see it.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #377 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:18 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:14 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:10 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:07 [UT+1]:
now rest my sweet, and enjoy the bliss of knowing who you are.

Chang-Chang translation : "Are you leaving yet? I need time to find all the face I just lost."
you are funny.

Chang-Chang translation : "I'm completely out of shit to say now. I'll get them later when I think up some new way to
twist everything they just said."
you do have exemplary talents that you should not let go to waste.

Meanwhile, in Chang-Chang's brain : "Where is that moderator?!!!Moderatorrr, I neeeeddddd youuuuuu. Wait,no, be strong. Act like you don't give a shit, Changling!"
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #378 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:14 [UT+1]:
Footnote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

re the idea of postmodern and pagan
metalog of debate over the two. terms get questioned as social construct etc...
another ancient was aeschylus who called for "peace beyond reason" so even if you feel anger let it go, others read too with various

Posts: 3624

opinions

very interesting thoughts about aeschylus.
According to Aristotle, he expanded the number of characters in plays to allow for conflict amongst them;previously, characters interacted only with the chorus.
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #379 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:14 [UT+1]:
Footnote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

re the idea of postmodern and pagan
metalog of debate over the two. terms get questioned as social construct etc...
another ancient was aeschylus who called for "peace beyond reason" so even if you feel anger let it go, others read too
with various opinions
very interesting thoughts about aeschylus.
According to Aristotle, he expanded the number of characters in plays to allow for conflict amongst them; previously, characters interacted
only with the chorus.

Translation : "This is the part where I try to impress people with the fact that I can spell Aristotle."
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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #380 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1] »yeahcool, uh?

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #381 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1]:
yeahcool, uh?

I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action of someone having their own opinions
that differ from theirs, actually makes them angry? Enough that other members have to come in and post
quotes that pretty much boil down to anger-management self-help speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence, fumbling for a decent answer to thequestion*
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #382 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action of someone having their own opinions that differ from theirs,
actually makes them angry? Enough that other members have to come in and post quotes that pretty much boil down to angermanagement self-help speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence, fumbling for a decent answer to the question*

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http://www.fhu.com/articles/hate1.html

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #383 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1]:
yeahcool, uh?

I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action of someone having their own opinions that differ
from theirs, actually makes them angry? Enough that other members have to come in and post quotes that pretty muchboil down to anger-management self-help speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence, fumbling for a decent answer to the question*
http://www.fhu.com/articles/hate1.html*remembers when you implied that Paul was slow because he didn't agree with you**writes 'pot' on your forehead and hands you a kettle*
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #384 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1]:*remembers when you implied that Paul was slow because he didn't agree with you**writes 'pot' on your forehead and hands you a kettle*

you are kind to remember

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #385 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:42 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1]:
yeahcool, uh?

I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action of someone having theirown opinions that differ from theirs, actually makes them angry? Enough that other members
have to come in and post quotes that pretty much boil down to anger-management self-help
speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence, fumbling for a decent
answer to the question*
http://www.fhu.com/articles/hate1.html*remembers when you implied that Paul was slow because he didn't agree with you**writes 'pot' on your forehead and hands you a kettle*
you are kind to remember

Meanwhile in Chang-Chang's head : "Yeah, that's it, just play it cool...dammit, where is that moderator?!!!!"
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #386 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:42 [UT+1]:
Meanwhile in Chang-Chang's head : "Yeah, that's it, just play it cool...dammit, where is that moderator?!!!!"

you are funny.

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #387 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:49 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:43 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:42 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:31 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:30 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1]:
yeahcool, uh?

I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action ofsomeone having their own opinions that differ from theirs, actually makes
them angry? Enough that other members have to come in and post
quotes that pretty much boil down to anger-management self-help speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence,
fumbling for a decent answer to the question*
http://www.fhu.com/articles/hate1.html*remembers when you implied that Paul was slow because he didn't agree with you**writes 'pot' on your forehead and hands you a kettle*
you are kind to remember

Meanwhile in Chang-Chang's head : "Yeah, that's it, just play it cool...dammit, where is that moderator?!!!!"
you are funny.

Meanwhile in Chang-Chang's head : "Is it working? Do they think I don't give a shit yet?"
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #388 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:49 [UT+1]:
Meanwhile in Chang-Chang's head : "Is it working? Do they think I don't give a shit yet?"youre cracking me up here. you are funny.
ps, if you take your temperature you should find it has risen slightly. the fire of the spirit.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #389 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:54 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:52 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:49 [UT+1]:
Meanwhile in Chang-Chang's head : "Is it working? Do they think I don't give a shit yet?"youre cracking me up here. you are funny.
ps, if you take your temperature you should find it has risen slightly. the fire of the spirit.

Actually I'm cold and you're boring me. *shrug*
But if you wanna keep projecting, have at it.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #390 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:57 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish to further the madness causedby the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions pertaining to this thread. i have said my piece and thats theway it stands.

Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 08:29 [UT+1]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThothThe Egyptians credited him as the author of all works of science, religion, philosophy, and magic. The Greeks further declared him theinventor of astronomy, astrology, the science of numbers, mathematics, geometry, land surveying, medicine, botany, theology, civilized

Posts: 3624

government, the alphabet, reading, writing, and oratory. They further claimed he was the true author of every work of every branch ofknowledge, human and divine.
Thoth's qualities also led to him being identified by the Greeks with their closest matching god Hermes, with whom Thoth was eventuallycombined, as Hermes Trismegistus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
if you read the mythology surrounding thoth, he was replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods., Anubis was merged with the Greek
god Hermes, becoming Hermanubis.
the diety of the moon, thoth was the voice piece of Ra's will, later replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods.
modern psychological based astrology which has turned back to the root, to base the astrology on the moon, whilst traditionalists stillusing methods given by the workings of astrology based on mercury, has caused a split that is seen as contentious and unresolvable.
the world chart, thema mundi is the teaching tool used to introduce aspiring practioners of astrology, has moon as the ruler. this chart isabout natural rulership.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury5.html
Mercurius's finest trick is to convince us each to wrap ourselves, ever tighter, in a world of our own imagining.
sarvam khalv idam brahma

Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
i find the opposition of saturn towards the moon in the thema mundi interesting as it really is malefic in its stance, being both negativeand harmful in its effects.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #391 - on: 27.08.2011 at 12:59 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish to further themadness caused by the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions pertaining to this thread. ihave said my piece and thats the way it stands.

And yet, somehow you're still here and have posted a billion times since then... *yawning*.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #392 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:02 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish to further themadness caused by the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions pertaining to this thread. ihave said my piece and thats the way it stands.
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 08:29 [UT+1]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThothThe Egyptians credited him as the author of all works of science, religion, philosophy, and magic. The Greeks further
declared him the inventor of astronomy, astrology, the science of numbers, mathematics, geometry, land surveying,
medicine, botany, theology, civilized government, the alphabet, reading, writing, and oratory. They further claimed he was
the true author of every work of every branch of knowledge, human and divine.
Thoth's qualities also led to him being identified by the Greeks with their closest matching god Hermes, with whom Thothwas eventually combined, as Hermes Trismegistus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
if you read the mythology surrounding thoth, he was replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods., Anubis was mergedwith the Greek god Hermes, becoming Hermanubis.
the diety of the moon, thoth was the voice piece of Ra's will, later replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods.
modern psychological based astrology which has turned back to the root, to base the astrology on the moon, whilst
traditionalists still using methods given by the workings of astrology based on mercury, has caused a split that is seen as
contentious and unresolvable.
the world chart, thema mundi is the teaching tool used to introduce aspiring practioners of astrology, has moon as theruler. this chart is about natural rulership.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury5.html
Mercurius's finest trick is to convince us each to wrap ourselves, ever tighter, in a world of our own imagining.
sarvam khalv idam brahma
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
i find the opposition of saturn towards the moon in the thema mundi interesting as it really is malefic in its stance, being
both negative and harmful in its effects.

Did you want a cookie for that? I can copy-paste, too. *nods*
And, yeah - everyone who doesn't agree with you and actually holds you accountable for your actions andexpects you to treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, is a trickster. *nods patiently*
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #393 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:02 [UT+1]:
And, yeah - everyone who doesn't agree with you and actually holds you accountable for your actions and expects you to treat others theway you want to be treated yourself, is a trickster. *nods patiently*

you are funny, i thought you were yawning which i took as being tired but it must be the mind playing tricks
again.
tat tvam asi
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Dren_
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #394 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:11 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 13:09 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:02 [UT+1]:
And, yeah - everyone who doesn't agree with you and actually holds you accountable for your actions and expects you totreat others the way you want to be treated yourself, is a trickster. *nods patiently*
you are funny, i thought you were yawning which i took as being tired but it must be the mind playing tricks again.
tat tvam asi

I did yawn. More than a few times. Frankly you're just yawn-inducing.
ramma lamma ding dong
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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #395 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:22 [UT+1] »Just saw in Moment of Astrology on page 35 that Cornelius says astrology is a 9th house affair.

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #396 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:31 [UT+1] »Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
Just saw in Moment of Astrology on page 35 that Cornelius says astrology is a 9th house affair.

A ton of us said exactly that a week or two ago. *sigh*Back to top
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #397 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
as for the answering of questions, i ask you to give intellegent answers to refute my post.

So that's a no then.
You want an intelligent rebuttal, but actually when I try to question you about your statements you won't
answer anything. You make a claim that modern psychological astorlogers use the Moon as the ruler ofastrology. Do they? Which ones? Back up your claims. Stop being so vague. Exactly which psychologicalastrologers do this?
So far whenever I try to pin you down to a point you quickly swim off in another direction, or you just outrightinsult me. Let's try and deal with one point at a time. I refute that most psychological astrologers use Moon as
ruler of astrology, so which ones do you know of that actually do? Let's get some references please.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #398 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
Just saw in Moment of Astrology on page 35 that Cornelius says astrology is a 9th house affair.

As do many astrologers, changling believes that no house can be assigned to astrology, her rationale issomething about a planet not being able to fit the universe. Don't ask.
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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #399 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:58 [UT+1] »p 93 just to keep abreast of symbol vis a vis sign although there is no implicit correlation
Rudhyars first book...sees astrology as a formal or symbolic system, an algebra of life...
later
so the symbol is without substance
The idea of the horoscope as a blueprint of possibilities...
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #400 - on: 27.08.2011 at 13:59 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:51 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 13:22 [UT+1]:
Just saw in Moment of Astrology on page 35 that Cornelius says astrology is a 9th house affair.
As do many astrologers, changling believes that no house can be assigned to astrology, her rationale is something about a planet not being
able to fit the universe. Don't ask.

Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 10:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 17:35 [UT+1]:

Posts: 3624

Quote from _Paul_ on 26.08.2011 at 16:48 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 26.08.2011 at 16:42 [UT+1]:
What you are talking about is the ascendant which signifies the body, as does the Moon.
Changling has a problem with more than one thing 'ruling' or being assigned something.
Feels like I'm trying to explain philosophy to a broken record trying to play Elvis.
And I'm sure Paul feels like an Oxford professor trying to explain physics to a dim-witted four year old.

Quote from _Paul_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1]:
or you just outright insult me.

snarkySnide and sarcastic; usually out of irritation; often humourously.
what part can you not see. you are funny.
Quote from _Paul_ on 23.08.2011 at 09:13 [UT+1]:
I'm not about 'proving' my statement true.

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Shining Ray

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #401 - on: 27.08.2011 at 14:02 [UT+1] »An interesting debate. I have always gone for Uranus to rule astrology. My partner has Sun, Moon and Mercury in the 9thhouse and has never picked up an astrology book. Living with me he has at least 100 books on the shelf to choose from,but no interest is there in wanting to read them. He tends to go for the other subjects associated with the 9th house like traveland geographical changes throughout the world, and even astronomy (and I consider this Uranian), but generally anything
about our world at LARGE as a WHOLE interests him, and being limited in funds the Geography Channel on sky is constantly
on record, how the mind and spirit will travel. I have Uranus in the 3rd house trine Moon-Mercury in the 7th and Jupiter inthe 11th. Mars in Aquarius in the 6th square Uranus. I have more connections with Uranus, and according to C.E.O Carter I
have Saturn rising at the astrologers degree. It's nice of him to point it out, and makes me feel all official. Still, to bat forthe other team, my sister has Uranus in the 3rd house conjunct Mercury, and is not interested in astrology, but seems

Posts: 470
Gender:interested in all the latest gadgets, new technologies, but sometimes it goes as far as the latest T.V, computer or phone, etc.
We will express our planets differently and I could have been interested in other mercurial/3rd house pursuits relating to
Uranus. Mercury analyzes, interprets, communicates, learns and so forth, but about what? We have to look to sign, house andaspects for further clues. No chart specifically says "astrologer" or this person will have an interest in astrology. The 11thhouse represents groups of like-minded people in general and it includes politics, science, astrologers and stamp collectors
who "get together" every Thursday for a meeting. My partner joined a snooker club, and I have joined astrology forums, eachto their own. He has Uranus in the 11th house and I have Jupiter in the 11th house. You could run around in circles withthis debate, but I do believe we should share ideas on the subject, but not attack one another, but no one wants a completely
boring and tea party debate full of pretence, so it's OK to challenge ideas, but not to ridicule one another and their beliefs.
I only managed to read up to page 10 on this thread, and it reminded me of the article by Liz Greene here called "How we
View Life is How We View Charts". We all have different beliefs, philosophies, and approaches to the subject and as she
states in the article, there is no "one true revelation." Forums fall into anarchy all the time, maybe it's the Uranian rulershipover the 11th house and then the call for order by Saturn's co rulership. We need a judge calling for order in theseproceedings. I would link to the article, but it means me logging out and back in again, and its Saturday and I have eaten
too much ice-cream today to fart about.
Quote:In the astrological community, discussions about the definitions of ‘real’ or ‘true’ astrology have, sadly, sometimes disintegrated fromgenuine debate to virulent attacks upon any astrologer whose perspectives do not agree with the spiritually or historically enlightened
individual upon whom the cosmos has bestowed the One True Revelation. Although this kind of exaggerated animosity says a good deal
more about the personal issues of those engaged in such polemics than it does about the nature of astrology, there is nothing new in thedebates themselves; various schools of astrological and philosophical thought have been in open disagreement since Hellenistic astrology
began to develop in the last centuries BCE. Astrology has never stood still, but has ‘lurched from paradigm to paradigm’, variously
envisioned by its practitioners as well as its critics as science, art, divination, shamanism, craft, astral magic, philosophy, religion,
psychology, and poetic metaphor. Whether the heavens are mechanistic or created and inhabited by deity, and whether the future isentirely, partially or minimally predictable, these are beliefs open to interpretation according to the religious perspective, cultural bias, andindividual temperament of the astrologer. Historically, astrology has demonstrated the capacity to retain a stable tradition of symbolic
forms while adapting itself to a vast variety of cultural settings and an even vaster variety of individual perspectives and practices.
But what matters most is that we are able to recognise that astrology has always contained many astrologies, and that each of us mustfind the unique blend that reflects our own deepest aspirations and offers a vehicle for our own special talents. Perhaps the most creative
thing we can do as astrologers is to find the astrology, and the way of living life, which most authentically reflects who we are as
individuals, and practice it with as much skill and integrity as possible, with respect for the perspectives of those who, being different
individuals, will inevitably see a different astrology that is also and equally valid. By Liz Greene

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EnlilMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #402 - on: 27.08.2011 at 16:09 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:04 [UT+1]:
Okay, I have a question here. *raises hand*Well, there's been a lot - a lot - of really prominent, respected astrologers over the decades, who definitely knew a lot about astrology,
who don't practice symbology, or any form of esoterica, and would look at you people like you have two heads if you mentioned Thema

Posts: 1210
Gender:Mundi. I've read the work of a lot of really brilliant astrologers, and none of them mention any of that stuff in relation to astrology - atall. Not even once.

I don't claim to be more knowledgeable than "really prominent, respected astrologers". Traditional astrology is
specialized. I might know more about traditional astrology then some of them, but I don't claim to be a better
astrologer.
Also the Thema Mundi is most notably in Firmicus' "Matheseos". Unless these astrologers have read Firmicus,
they probably wouldn't know it. It didn't seem to pass into Arabic astrology or later, so it's less likely to haveturned up in tons of books.
The idea, according to Firmicus, is that it was a tool representing the chart of the beginning of the world. He
said it wasn't considered to be literal, but used as a learning tool. It seems to illustrate a lot of basic
astrological concepts including exaltations.
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 11:04 [UT+1]:
Why is that? I mean, since you guys insist that astrology and your metaphysical religions are one and the same or that at the very least,
no one can be a competent astrologer without adhering to them.

I think I'm the only traditionalist here who mixes metaphysics and astrology.
Being a competent astrologer only means that you can deliver what you promise by using astrological
techniques. I don't claim traditional astrology has a monopoly on that. I have high personal standards though.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #403 - on: 27.08.2011 at 19:48 [UT+1] »I haven't read through the whole of this thread, so please excuse this little diversion if someone else has done
this already, but here is my take on which house rules astrology:
1st house - because astrology is all about ordering experience into a symbolic language.
2nd house - because astrology boosts my self-esteem and sense of worth (or not) by giving me psychologicalor spiritual insight.

Posts: 2454

3rd house - because astrology helps people discriminate between people and events using the language ofsymbols.
4th house - because astrology can become the inner foundation of one's experience, and one's horoscope islargely determined by one's parents deciding on when we were conceived.
5th house - because astrology is fun, used by some people to find a romantic partner and when to gamble.
6th house - medical astrology, herbalism
7th house - one to one astrological counseling
8th house - psychological insight through astrology, sometimes control and privacy issues
9th house - how astrology is classified philosophically, its link to religion
10th house - astrology's status in the world
11th house - astrology as tool for social justice12th house - esoteric/occult astrology, astrology of dreams, art/music and the unconscious
Since astrology is really all of these, IMO, I think that it's cannot be assigned to one house, or to one sign orplanet for that matter, but is better seen as a process, and the best symbol I can think of for this is theasteroid. Chiron. The asteroid to me represents the process of initiation, or testing all the ideas of astrology inreal life, and learning as we go.

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ZappoII
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #404 - on: 27.08.2011 at 20:23 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 27.08.2011 at 19:48 [UT+1]:
I haven't read through the whole of this thread, so please excuse this little diversion if someone else has done this already, but here is mytake on which house rules astrology:
1st house - because astrology is all about ordering experience into a symbolic language.
2nd house - because astrology boosts my self-esteem and sense of worth (or not) by giving me psychological or spiritual insight.
3rd house - because astrology helps people discriminate between people and events using the language of symbols.
4th house - because astrology can become the inner foundation of one's experience, and one's horoscope is largely determined by one's
parents deciding on when we were conceived.
5th house - because astrology is fun, used by some people to find a romantic partner and when to gamble.
6th house - medical astrology, herbalism
7th house - one to one astrological counseling
8th house - psychological insight through astrology, sometimes control and privacy issues
9th house - how astrology is classified philosophically, its link to religion
10th house - astrology's status in the world
11th house - astrology as tool for social justice12th house - esoteric/occult astrology, astrology of dreams, art/music and the unconscious
Since astrology is really all of these, IMO, I think that it's cannot be assigned to one house, or to one sign or planet for that matter, but isbetter seen as a process, and the best symbol I can think of for this is the asteroid. Chiron. The asteroid to me represents the process of
initiation, or testing all the ideas of astrology in real life, and learning as we go.

Oh, I want to shred this to pieces. I could get very nasty.
5th house - Because its fun? Because it's used for gambling? You've got to be kidding. Well, now I know
where to put lucky rabbit feet.
2nd house - It's the house of money and possessions. Astrology belongs there because it gives psychologicaland spiritual insight?
10th house - Now we're shifting from people and what astrology does for them to the status of astrology itself
in the world?

No, you can't have it both ways. If astrology is to be given to every house then it must be given to every
planet and asteroid. And everything else.
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #405 - on: 27.08.2011 at 22:03 [UT+1] »Quote from ZappoII on 27.08.2011 at 20:23 [UT+1]:
Oh, I want to shred this to pieces. I could get very nasty.
5th house - Because its fun? Because it's used for gambling? You've got to be kidding. Well, now I know where to put lucky rabbit feet.
2nd house - It's the house of money and possessions. Astrology belongs there because it gives psychological and spiritual insight?
10th house - Now we're shifting from people and what astrology does for them to the status of astrology itself in the world?
No, you can't have it both ways. If astrology is to be given to every house then it must be given to every planet and asteroid. And

Posts: 2454

everything else.

Just having some fun. I'll leave the thread to more serious contributions from now on.
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MyobunEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #406 - on: 27.08.2011 at 22:49 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1]:
yeahcool, uh?

I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action of someone having their own opinions that differ from theirs,
actually makes them angry? Enough that other members have to come in and post quotes that pretty much boil down to angermanagement self-help speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence, fumbling for a decent answer to the question*

If you read your question on face value, like I just read it to my wife, the answer is it sounds 'narrow minded'
to get mad at someone if their opinion is different.
We should be able to tolerate other points of view, don't you think?

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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #407 - on: 27.08.2011 at 23:04 [UT+1] »i found realworlds post amuzing.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=amuzing
1.
amuzinga cross between amazing and amusing.
in other words, a perfect person.
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Shining Ray
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #408 - on: 28.08.2011 at 06:52 [UT+1] »If you look at realworlds post and imagined an astrologer had a stellium or emphasis in one of those houses, you could
propose that their astrological worldview and motivation would be expressed in those areas. I am not saying any one of thosehouses rules astrology, but if you happen to be an astrologer, the concerns of a particular house would be very important toyour work. I have a 7th house chart, and one-to-one counseling, the public arena, or working on the behalf of others and soforth are areas suggested. I am too shy for public work in that sense, but I write a blog and share a part of myself andastrological views with many online. A serious astrologer with a 10th house stellium would want public recognition and status
and outer achievement, more so than other astrologers who may use astrology for others purposes. The same could be said
for a scientist or lawyer with planets in a particular house. Most modern astrologers tend to put lawyers in the 7th (working inbehalf of others) and 9th house (legal matters, courts and judges), the 6th house is work and health and small pets, and so

Posts: 470
Gender:forth. The list can go on and on, and it doesn't always mean the person works or is interested in any of those areas. It could
be argued all areas of study fall across the 3rd and 9th houses, to Mercury and Jupiter aspects. Esoteric, spiritual, hidden andoccult type subjects would fall into the 8th or 12th houses, but I wouldn't necessarily assign astrology to those houses.
Astrologer Liz Greene was introduced to astrology under a Jupiter-Uranus conjunction (Astrology of Fate), and I became
involved in astrology quite heavily when transiting Uranus formed a conjunction to my angular 7th house Sun, and I went
online O for first time, joined an astrology forum O, bought more books on astrology O than I could possibly read in one go.
Maybe other people had other planets and houses activated.

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #409 - on: 28.08.2011 at 12:37 [UT+1] »Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 22:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 27.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Myobun on 27.08.2011 at 12:21 [UT+1]:
yeahcool, uh?

I have a question again. *raises hand*Okay, what does it say about someone as a person if the mere action of someone having their own opinions that differ
from theirs, actually makes them angry? Enough that other members have to come in and post quotes that pretty muchboil down to anger-management self-help speak?
*waits patiently for a response while the class sits there in silence, fumbling for a decent answer to the question*

If you read your question on face value, like I just read it to my wife, the answer is it sounds 'narrow minded' to get mad at someone if
their opinion is different.
We should be able to tolerate other points of view, don't you think?

Absolutely. I've always thought that. It's the one over there *points to Chang-Chang* that you might want topull aside and have a talk with.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #410 - on: 28.08.2011 at 12:43 [UT+1] »Quote from realworld on 27.08.2011 at 19:48 [UT+1]:
I haven't read through the whole of this thread, so please excuse this little diversion if someone else has done this already, but here is mytake on which house rules astrology:
1st house - because astrology is all about ordering experience into a symbolic language.
2nd house - because astrology boosts my self-esteem and sense of worth (or not) by giving me psychological or spiritual insight.
3rd house - because astrology helps people discriminate between people and events using the language of symbols.
4th house - because astrology can become the inner foundation of one's experience, and one's horoscope is largely determined by one's
parents deciding on when we were conceived.
5th house - because astrology is fun, used by some people to find a romantic partner and when to gamble.
6th house - medical astrology, herbalism
7th house - one to one astrological counseling
8th house - psychological insight through astrology, sometimes control and privacy issues
9th house - how astrology is classified philosophically, its link to religion
10th house - astrology's status in the world
11th house - astrology as tool for social justice12th house - esoteric/occult astrology, astrology of dreams, art/music and the unconscious
Since astrology is really all of these, IMO, I think that it's cannot be assigned to one house, or to one sign or planet for that matter, but isbetter seen as a process, and the best symbol I can think of for this is the asteroid. Chiron. The asteroid to me represents the process of
initiation, or testing all the ideas of astrology in real life, and learning as we go.

Astrology isn't all those to everyone though. I think that's a lot of the problem here. People are so overly
emotionally-invested in their personal religions that it's made them self-absorbed and completely unable tofathom that their way of seeing things, isn't how everyone else sees them.
And just because things get attributed to the same house doesn't necessarily mean they're connected. So
because the seventh is the house of the spouse and open-enemies, everyone marries who they hate? Or
because sex and death are both eighth house, everybody's into necrophilia?
I'm going with what I've read and what has shown itself to be true. All the astrologers who are known for theiraccuracy who publish books and give lectures all over the world, the ones who know what they're really talking
about, never refer to astrology and metaphysical or esoteric religious practices as being one and the same, or
say that the latter is necessary in order to understand the former. You have every right to think what you want,that's fine, but I feel differently and I think I'll go with what they say as opposed to random hobbyists in thesubject typing away on a forum.
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #411 - on: 28.08.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
as for the answering of questions, i ask you to give intellegent answers to refute my post.

So that's a no then.
You want an intelligent rebuttal, but actually when I try to question you about your statements you won't answer anything. You makea claim that modern psychological astorlogers use the Moon as the ruler of astrology. Do they?
Which ones? Back up your claims. Stop being so vague. Exactly which psychological astrologers do this?
So far whenever I try to pin you down to a point you quickly swim off in another direction, or you just outright insult me. Let's try anddeal with one point at a time. I refute that most psychological astrologers use Moon as ruler of astrology, so which ones do you know ofthat actually do? Let's get some references please.

No, they don't.
They say it's the domain of Uranus.
I have a shitload of astrology books on the shelf in my closet and I can pull them out and start typing and get
the direct quotes - if I have to - but I'm really too lazy to do it right now.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #412 - on: 28.08.2011 at 14:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 28.08.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
as for the answering of questions, i ask you to give intellegent answers to refute my post.

So that's a no then.

Posts: 3624

You want an intelligent rebuttal, but actually when I try to question you about your statements you won't answer anything.

You make a claim that modern psychological astorlogers use the Moon as the ruler ofastrology. Do they? Which ones? Back up your claims. Stop being so vague. Exactly which psychologicalastrologers do this?
So far whenever I try to pin you down to a point you quickly swim off in another direction, or you just outright insult me.
Let's try and deal with one point at a time. I refute that most psychological astrologers use Moon as ruler of astrology, sowhich ones do you know of that actually do? Let's get some references please.

No, they don't.
They say it's the domain of Uranus.
I have a shitload of astrology books on the shelf in my closet and I can pull them out and start typing and get the direct quotes - if I haveto - but I'm really too lazy to do it right now.

wake up, you are dreaming.
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #413 - on: 28.08.2011 at 14:32 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 28.08.2011 at 14:27 [UT+1]:
Quote from Dren_ on 28.08.2011 at 13:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 27.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:52 [UT+1]:
as for the answering of questions, i ask you to give intellegent answers to refute my post.

So that's a no then.
You want an intelligent rebuttal, but actually when I try to question you about your statements you won't
answer anything. You make a claim that modern psychological astorlogers use

the Moon as the ruler of astrology. Do they? Which ones? Back up your claims. Stop being
so vague. Exactly which psychological astrologers do this?
So far whenever I try to pin you down to a point you quickly swim off in another direction, or you justoutright insult me. Let's try and deal with one point at a time. I refute that most psychological astrologers
use Moon as ruler of astrology, so which ones do you know of that actually do? Let's get some references
please.

No, they don't.
They say it's the domain of Uranus.
I have a shitload of astrology books on the shelf in my closet and I can pull them out and start typing and get the direct
quotes - if I have to - but I'm really too lazy to do it right now.

wake up, you are dreaming.

Okay then.
I'll pull out my books and type up the quotes in a few hours. With page numbers, so those who have the books
can go and look it up for themselves.
And I say in a few hours because I'm going to bed. Not because I'm trying to stall.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #414 - on: 28.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1] »some people can not read what i write without jumping to conclusions.
it will save you time and effort to read this again and find where you got the notion that i said modern
pyschological astrology is ruled by the moon. i did not. you have not been attentive.
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish to further themadness caused by the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions pertaining to this thread. ihave said my piece and thats the way it stands.

Posts: 3624
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 08:29 [UT+1]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThothThe Egyptians credited him as the author of all works of science, religion, philosophy, and magic. The Greeks further
declared him the inventor of astronomy, astrology, the science of numbers, mathematics, geometry, land surveying,
medicine, botany, theology, civilized government, the alphabet, reading, writing, and oratory. They further claimed he was
the true author of every work of every branch of knowledge, human and divine.
Thoth's qualities also led to him being identified by the Greeks with their closest matching god Hermes, with whom Thothwas eventually combined, as Hermes Trismegistus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
if you read the mythology surrounding thoth, he was replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods., Anubis was mergedwith the Greek god Hermes, becoming Hermanubis.
the diety of the moon, thoth was the voice piece of Ra's will, later replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods.
modern psychological based astrology which has turned back to the root, to base the astrology on the moon, whilst
traditionalists still using methods given by the workings of astrology based on mercury, has caused a split that is seen as
contentious and unresolvable.
the world chart, thema mundi is the teaching tool used to introduce aspiring practioners of astrology, has moon as theruler. this chart is about natural rulership.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury5.html
Mercurius's finest trick is to convince us each to wrap ourselves, ever tighter, in a world of our own imagining.
sarvam khalv idam brahma
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
i find the opposition of saturn towards the moon in the thema mundi interesting as it really is malefic in its stance, being
both negative and harmful in its effects.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #415 - on: 29.08.2011 at 01:44 [UT+1] »Changling
Which psychological astrologers assign astrology to the Moon? (third time asking)
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #416 - on: 29.08.2011 at 02:14 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 28.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1]:
some people can not read what i write without jumping to conclusions.
it will save you time and effort to read this again and find where you got the notion that i said modern pyschological astrology is ruled by
the moon. i did not. you have not been attentive.
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:57 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 11:12 [UT+1]:
i have extracted myself from this thread for the very purpose of keeping my own council and do not wish tofurther the madness caused by the players of tricks. refrain from involving me in any further discussions
pertaining to this thread. i have said my piece and thats the way it stands.
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 08:29 [UT+1]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThothThe Egyptians credited him as the author of all works of science, religion, philosophy, and magic. The Greeks
further declared him the inventor of astronomy, astrology, the science of numbers, mathematics, geometry,land surveying, medicine, botany, theology, civilized government, the alphabet, reading, writing, andoratory. They further claimed he was the true author of every work of every branch of knowledge, humanand divine.
Thoth's qualities also led to him being identified by the Greeks with their closest matching god Hermes, withwhom Thoth was eventually combined, as Hermes Trismegistus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
if you read the mythology surrounding thoth, he was replaced by Anubis, the messenger of the gods., Anubis
was merged with the Greek god Hermes, becoming Hermanubis.
the diety of the moon, thoth was the voice piece of Ra's will, later replaced by Anubis, the messenger of thegods.

modern psychological based astrology which has turned back to the root, tobase the astrology on the moon, whilst traditionalists still using methods given by the workingsof astrology based on mercury, has caused a split that is seen as contentious and unresolvable.

the world chart, thema mundi is the teaching tool used to introduce aspiring
practioners of astrology, has moon as the ruler. this chart is about natural
rulership.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mercury5.html
Mercurius's finest trick is to convince us each to wrap ourselves, ever tighter, in a world of our own
imagining.
sarvam khalv idam brahma
Quote from chang*ling on 27.08.2011 at 12:13 [UT+1]:
i find the opposition of saturn towards the moon in the thema mundi interesting as it really is malefic in its
stance, being both negative and harmful in its effects.

*points to the highlighted portion*
Uh, yeah - you did say modern astrologers consider the moon the ruler of astrology.
Then a sentence or two later you tried to twist it and say that because the moon is the chart ruler in the Thema
Mundi, that that means the moon rules astrology.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #417 - on: 29.08.2011 at 02:41 [UT+1] »And then started a new thread asking what does the thema mundi actually mean.
:S
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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #418 - on: 29.08.2011 at 03:19 [UT+1] »It seems to me that what has happened here is that there is a discussion about whether it's C or O that rules
astrology...obviously C is the traditional ruler, and O is the modern ruler of astrology. I don't have a problem
with any of that because I see C and O as being linked anyway. Many astrologers say O is the higher octaveof C, so I tend to agree with both sides and don't see a problem with using both.
Paul and Dren are using standard agreed upon ideas that are shared among astrologers on either side of thefence, and backed up by astrological texts.
chang*ling is playing around with apparently 'new' ideas that are mostly his own, or a combination of his own
and the writings of people on the outskirts of astrology, or from other fields altogether. This is fine too, but forme (and it seems others) it becomes hard to follow, and difficult to relate the ideas back to the basic tenets ofastrology...and also brings in a lot of information that is unrelated to usual astrological practice.
It has a kind of 'cat among the pigeons' affect on the discussion. Especially as these ideas are presented with adistinct lack of humility and respect for tried and tested rules of astrology, and without prefacing them with any
acknowledgement of this fact.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #419 - on: 29.08.2011 at 06:44 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 29.08.2011 at 02:41 [UT+1]:
And then started a new thread asking what does the thema mundi actually mean.
:S

So far what I'm getting is this.
Thema Mundi is the 'natal chart' of the planet.
Lots of astrologers study said chart.
The chart ruler is the moon.
Therefore, the moon rules astrology.

...I rest my case.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #420 - on: 29.08.2011 at 10:53 [UT+1] »whats the big hang up? cant get over the thought of somebody thinks differently to you and has their own
oponions?
practise what you preach, and from where im sitting thats what its seems you are doing, preaching yourphilosophies to me. i have said drop it many times , but some people are stuck, like somebody suggested anelvis record doing the hicky.

Posts: 3624

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #421 - on: 29.08.2011 at 10:58 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 10:53 [UT+1]:
whats the big hang up? cant get over the thought of somebody thinks differently to you and has their own oponions?
practise what you preach, and from where im sitting thats what its seems you are doing, preaching your philosophies to me. i have said
drop it many times , but some people are stuck, like somebody suggested an elvis record doing the hicky.

Actually no it isn't that at all. The problem is your duplicity. If you'd just said, "No books say this, noastrologers say this, it's just my own personal theory" I would've given it a much better reception. But you
didn't do that. You actually tried to pass off your (not very well thought-out or conceived and highly
astrologically unsound) theory as documented, proven fact and lord it over people as though it were law, evengoing so far as to scold and insult people who didn't agree with you.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #422 - on: 29.08.2011 at 11:09 [UT+1] »i have one question to the individuals that are hounding me upon these boards. do i not have the right to beoriginal in my thoughts? do i need somebody of worldly reknown authority to follow? you miss the very idea
behind what some of your books say about uranus and that reminds of another thing, but you do not need tohear my opinions as they offend your sensibilities.

Posts: 3624

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #423 - on: 29.08.2011 at 11:28 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 11:09 [UT+1]:
i have one question to the individuals that are hounding me upon these boards. do i not have the right to be original in my thoughts? do ineed somebody of worldly reknown authority to follow? you miss the very idea behind what some of your books say about uranus and that
reminds of another thing, but you do not need to hear my opinions as they offend your sensibilities.

You ambushed Paul in this thread and attacked him for days because he gave an opinion that didn't fit yourhomespun theory. You ambushed me in another section of the boards when I hadn't even spoken to you. You
know this, I know this, and furthermore, all of this stuff is documented on the boards and can be proven if itcame to that, and I'm sure you're well aware of that so why do you insist on lying about it?
And frankly - yes. If you're going to come after someone and state as fact that the moon rules astrology andeven go so far as to imply they're mentally handicapped because they don't agree, it goes a long way towards
establishing your own credibility if you have some kind of hard data to back up your statements.
Your opinions don't offend me a bit. Honestly I don't care about it one way or the other. What did piss me off
is how you went about expressing them - in a manner that was completely hostile and disrespectful to someone
who hadn't done anything to you, and the dishonesty surrounding your presentation of your stance. It has
nothing to do with having a world reknown name to drop and everything to do with having some kind of hard
data to support your theory if you're going to be so arrogant as to present it as fact and beat other people overthe head with it and abuse them for not agreeing with it.
Frankly you're demanding respect that you just don't deserve because your actions have shown that.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #424 - on: 29.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1] »this ones for paul. "rulers" do not equal "assign" do not equal "based". logic is a cognitive process.
as for you dren, after pulling up your profile and seeing what youve been doing since the last 75 posts, its notmuch astrology but argumentive and personally revealing rhetoric.
my aim was to induce thought provoking argument and what i get back is dogmatic unthoughtful responce.

Posts: 3624

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #425 - on: 29.08.2011 at 11:44 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1]:
this ones for paul. "rules" do not equal "assign" do not equal "based". logic is a cognitive process.
as for you dren, after pulling up your profile and seeing what youve been doing since the last 75 posts, its not much astrology but
argumentive and personally revealing rhetoric.

After spending days trying to pass off your unsubstantiated theory (about subject matter you actually know
little to nothing about) as fact, you honestly have no business trying to give anyone a lecture on logic.
And at least eighty percent of my posts are directly relevant to the subject of astrology, even the personallybased ones. There's also a difference between being argumentative and expressing disagreement but as you
made clear days ago that you're not entirely interested in the truth so much as inclined to twist anything in amanner which suits you most and whatever current agenda you have. All these things are also completely
irrelevant to the subject at hand and I'm fully aware it's a poorly-executed diversionary tactic on your part. At
the end of the day you were wrong for your behavior, you're still wrong, and rather than be the enlightened
person you present yourself as and apologize for it and make a conscious effort to do better, you continue toabuse antagonize and outright lie instead.
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #426 - on: 29.08.2011 at 11:50 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1]:
this ones for paul. "rulers" do not equal "assign" do not equal "based". logic is a cognitive process.
as for you dren, after pulling up your profile and seeing what youve been doing since the last 75 posts, its not much astrology but
argumentive and personally revealing rhetoric.
my aim was to induce thought provoking argument and what i get back is dogmatic unthoughtful responce.

You say that's what you wanted but your actions told a different story. A person who genuinely wants an open
dialogue and discussion on a subject doesn't throw a tantrum the second someone has a different opinion. Let's
just be honest here - you thought up a theory, came in here with the intent to indoctrinate people with it, andexpected people to blindly take it in and agree with you. That didn't happen, people came in and stated thatthey felt differently and you flew off the handle because you couldn't force them to believe what you wanted
them to.
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #427 - on: 29.08.2011 at 12:17 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 12:11 [UT+1]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP4abiHdQpc
this should add something to your burn rate.

Maybe. Maybe not.
If I were going to bother watching it, that is.
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #428 - on: 29.08.2011 at 12:32 [UT+1] »i feel you want me to say something that would change how you see me.
i percieve that you have made up you mind already and are not going to change.
i believe i will be wasting my time and everybody elses upon this board to carry on with this discourse.
i do not agree with what you are saying
i need everybody that is making snarky remarks about this subject to understand what they are actually doing
is a form of discrimination and bullying.
have a good day.
Posts: 3624

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mikalek

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #429 - on: 29.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1] »What's the Idea with the Question at all ?
Does it really matter what rules astrology ?
Is it because we want to look at our charts to see how great and marvellous an astrologer we are or can be ?
Well Ok Before Uranus, It was Mercury. Jupiter. Saturn. Three different Roles. The math, the seeing far ahead,
the research and methodology.

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #430 - on: 29.08.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1] »Quote from mikalek on 29.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1]:
What's the Idea with the Question at all ?
Does it really matter what rules astrology ?
Is it because we want to look at our charts to see how great and marvellous an astrologer we are or can be ?
Well Ok Before Uranus, It was Mercury. Jupiter. Saturn. Three different Roles. The math, the seeing far ahead, the research andmethodology.

Posts: 3624

its the the so-called "Chaldaean" order of the planets in reverse.

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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #431 - on: 30.08.2011 at 06:57 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 12:32 [UT+1]:
i feel you want me to say something that would change how you see me.
i percieve that you have made up you mind already and are not going to change.
i believe i will be wasting my time and everybody elses upon this board to carry on with this discourse.
i do not agree with what you are saying
i need everybody that is making snarky remarks about this subject to understand what they are actually doing is a form of discrimination
and bullying.
have a good day.

No, I want you to treat other people the way you yourself would want to be treated - with respect.
I want you to have the decency and scruples and morality to be above-board and honest.
But at this point I feel you simply are not capable of either, which is rather unfortunate and more than a bit
unsettling considering you view yourself as some kind of modern day prophet or messiah that is supposed tolead and guide other human beings. We have enough people acting like you do, we don't need more.
And frankly, you're just boring and repetitive. I haven't seen you present anything of value in this thread otherthan ideas that are almost nonsensical, and watch you try and justify your unjustifiable conduct.
Ultimately though I do feel for you and hope you start to reassess and become a better person than you areright now, but the sad part is that you're completely unaware of your lack of character and genuinely believe
the things you do are okay and right, and thus won't change your ways anytime soon. I worry for you, for yourkarma and the ultimate fate of your soul.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #432 - on: 30.08.2011 at 09:25 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 11:35 [UT+1]:
this ones for paul. "rulers" do not equal "assign" do not equal "based". logic is a cognitive process.

Changling"Rule" and "assign" are your words.
Again, for the fourth time? Which psychological astrologer assign astrology to the moon?
You've made the statement and upon questioning it and asking for references have done what you normally do,either of two things: A) Talk about something else entirely, B) Argue via ad hominems
So, enough of the rhetoric. Which psychological astrologers assign astrology to the Moon?
Second question, what has the relevance of the Moon ruling the Thema Mundi got to do with the discussion?
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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #433 - on: 30.08.2011 at 09:52 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 29.08.2011 at 23:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from mikalek on 29.08.2011 at 21:35 [UT+1]:
What's the Idea with the Question at all ?
Does it really matter what rules astrology ?
Is it because we want to look at our charts to see how great and marvellous an astrologer we are or can be ?
Well Ok Before Uranus, It was Mercury. Jupiter. Saturn. Three different Roles. The math, the seeing far ahead, theresearch and methodology.

its the the so-called "Chaldaean" order of the planets in reverse.

Sorry?
What is the reverse of the Chaldean order?
The Chaldean order, as you don't appear to know what it is, is:Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon.
The planets you've replied to as being the reverse:
Uranus, mercury, Jupiter, SaturnAs you can see, it is NOT the Chaldean order in reverse.
Sometimes I wonder if you just post senselessly and mindlessly, a quick google search could have told you theChaldean order.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #434 - on: 30.08.2011 at 10:49 [UT+1] »like two japping chihuahuas,
dren, i'll take responsibilty for my own karma thanks, i suggest you do likewise.
paul, stop barking, find in my text i assign the moon to pyschological astrology and i will reply withintellegence. you will not find it said anywhere in my text unless taken out of context.
as for the Chaldean remarks, you assume too much about what i am infering or knowing.
Posts: 3624

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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #435 - on: 30.08.2011 at 10:59 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 30.08.2011 at 10:49 [UT+1]:
like two japping dogs.
dren, ill take responsibilty for my own karma thanks.
paul, stop barking, find in my text i assign the moon to pyschological astrology and i will reply with intellegence. you will not find it said
anywhere in my text unless taken out of context.

Resorting to more insults? All class.
...You have to take responsibility for it, because I'm sure as hell not going to fry in your place to save your ass.

As far as the actual topic goes - again, since you tend to remember things the way you want to as opposed to
how they actually occurred - you did rather arrogantly state that the moon rules astrology as though you had
text to back you up. You even went so far as to berate people who didn't agree with you and imply they werementally incompetent, intentionally giving the impression that what you were saying was commonly-known factthat and easily found in any astrology text. It's only after you were asked (repeatedly!) for something real toback up your claims that you mumbled something about your own personal theory regarding the Thema Mundi.
You essentially tried to bluff your way through, assuming no one would ask you for evidence to support yourthesis, and found out fast that it wasn't going to fly.
And no one's going to take your quotes out of context and twist them - that's your way. Not everyone is asdishonest as you.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #436 - on: 30.08.2011 at 11:03 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 30.08.2011 at 10:49 [UT+1]:
as for the Chaldean remarks, you assume too much about what i am infering or knowing.

I only assume you mean what you post.
You posted it was the inverse of teh chaldean order. I assume you mean that. It's a reasonable assumption.
Turns out you're wrong though cos it ISN'T the inverse of the chaldean order.
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Dren_

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #437 - on: 30.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 30.08.2011 at 11:03 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 30.08.2011 at 10:49 [UT+1]:
as for the Chaldean remarks, you assume too much about what i am infering or knowing.

I only assume you mean what you post.
You posted it was the inverse of teh chaldean order. I assume you mean that. It's a reasonable assumption.
Turns out you're wrong though cos it ISN'T the inverse of the chaldean order.

That is what she meant. She's stating things and then when she's proven wrong or asked to provide some kindof evidence, she lies and says that wasn't what she meant.
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chang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #438 - on: 30.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1] »houses rule everything in life [sic]for me to refute this was the beginning of a senseless discourse.
state what you wish and if anybody doesnt like your opinions then twist as worms do when put under the sun
light.
and when somebody else makes a joke take it seriously and get caught up by your own mercurial imaginings.
i care not for any more of this twaddle and its time the children went off to school.

Posts: 3624

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Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #439 - on: 30.08.2011 at 11:24 [UT+1] »Anyways this thread has well and truly had a good run.
I think it's begun to move too far away from the original question with just too much ad hominem for myliking.
I wonder if the forum admins would consider locking it down now. I don't think we've made any progress onanything in the last few pages or so anyway.
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mikalek
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #440 - on: 30.08.2011 at 11:59 [UT+1] »Here it is:
http://www.streetdirectory.com/businessfinder/company_detail.php?companyid=94712&branchid=137366

Posts: 1473
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Dren_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #441 - on: 30.08.2011 at 12:09 [UT+1] »Quote from chang*ling on 30.08.2011 at 11:23 [UT+1]:
houses rule everything in life [sic]for me to refute this was the beggining of a senseless discourse.
state what you wish and if anybody doesnt like your opinions then twist as worms do when put under the sun light.
and when somebody else makes a joke take it seriously and get caught up by your own mercurial imaginings.
i care not for any more of this twaddle and its time the children went off to school.

...You had nothing to refute anything with in the first place. You just decided that you didn't like astrology as it
was and that you were going to single-handedly rewrite it and pass around your own theories. I think you
expected everyone to just blindly take what you said as fact and not question it or even ask for supporting
evidence and were completely surprised when you found out quickly that you underestimated the intelligence ofthe people around you and severely overestimated your own. You resorted to personal attacks, lies and various
other underhanded techniques to try and vilify the people who asked valid questions, as well as in an attempt
to try and distract from the fact that you simply have no proof to support your claims.
Now that all is said and done you're playing the only card you have left, the Victim Card and insisting thateveryone is bullying you to try and infringe on your Freedom of Speech. Despite the fact that no one did thatand in fact simply just asked you for proof to back up your theories, and asked you to be respectful of othermembers when constructing your posts. Obviously it's become apparent to you that those bottom-of-the-barrel
games aren't working either so now you're resorting to the "I was only joking" tactic despite the fact that noone who is merely 'joking' goes back and forth with people for days on end flaming them the way you just did.
Someone is playing the Mercurial Trickster here but it's not me, and it's not Paul. Hint, hint : mirror, mirror.
At any rate, it's ultimately time to bring this to a close because it is extremely tedious and incredibly boring
going back and forth with an adult so egotistical and emotionally-stunted that being exposed to different pointsof view causes you to throw tantrums like a child, and frankly I have better things to do than sit here and bepatient while you lie. If you haven't learned basic manners and morals by now you may never learn and frankly
I'm sick of trying to teach people such as yourself that are much older than me and should know better, how to
be decent human beings.
Leaving you to your darkness. Hopefully you'll get real with yourself and work on finding your way out
someday.
But I'm not exactly holding my breath.
By all means, the last word is yours if you want it and need it for your own ego - and I certainly believe you do.
Just don't expect me to bother reading it.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #442 - on: 30.08.2011 at 12:22 [UT+1] »A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an
opponent's position.To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing
it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without everhaving actually refuted the original position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Posts: 3624

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viola magmar

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #443 - on: 30.08.2011 at 12:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 17.08.2011 at 21:46 [UT+1]:
Some aspects of astrology are ruled by Uranus and others by Pluto. According to The Combination of Stellar Influences astrology andastrologers are most often symbolized by Mercury/Uranus, especially Mercury/Uranus/MC.

WOW, well well, I ought to work harder and get more results, then: Uranus in Gemini, sextiling Pluto in 8th,
Pluto ruler of 11th house, not to miss Sag rising, Jupiter in 8th squaring Mercury and Saturn in Gemini.
Posts: 7557
Gender:Last but not least: Mercury is my 9th house ruler. Urania is at 21° Libra, 10th house, trine Saturn. I should feellike someone who ought to be striken with illumination, some day!!!
One thing for sure, I am deeply interested in astrology and research connected.
violalaura

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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #444 - on: 30.08.2011 at 12:35 [UT+1] »Quote from Dren_ on 30.08.2011 at 11:06 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 30.08.2011 at 11:03 [UT+1]:
Quote from chang*ling on 30.08.2011 at 10:49 [UT+1]:
as for the Chaldean remarks, you assume too much about what i am infering or knowing.

I only assume you mean what you post.
You posted it was the inverse of teh chaldean order. I assume you mean that. It's a reasonable assumption.
Turns out you're wrong though cos it ISN'T the inverse of the chaldean order.

That is what she meant. She's stating things and then when she's proven wrong or asked to provide some kind of evidence, she lies andsays that wasn't what she meant.

By the way, Chang*ling is a man.
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viola magmar

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #445 - on: 30.08.2011 at 12:56 [UT+1] »Who could be interested in feeding Zappo's hunger
ciaoluv

Posts: 7557
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Forum Admin
Astro Forum
Administrator

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #446 - on: 30.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1] »We have warned forum member ZappoII because of his continued campaign against modern
astrology practice and the permanent attacks against the mainstream astrologers who follow it.
He is on temporary ban, to cool down.

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #447 - on: 30.08.2011 at 15:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Forum Admin on 30.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:
We have warned forum member ZappoII because of his continued campaign against modern astrology practice and thepermanent attacks against the mainstream astrologers who follow it.
He is on temporary ban, to cool down.

That is a shame.
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MaryD

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #448 - on: 30.08.2011 at 16:02 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 30.08.2011 at 15:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Forum Admin on 30.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:
We have warned forum member ZappoII because of his continued campaign against modern astrology
practice and the permanent attacks against the mainstream astrologers who follow it.
He is on temporary ban, to cool down.

That is a shame.

Posts: 1258
Gender:Yes, it is.

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viola magmar

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #449 - on: 30.08.2011 at 16:10 [UT+1] »Why, you mean it is a shame that he keeps arguing when not insulting? Or that he has been temporarily
banned? Forum members should know general rules of this website and comply if they wish to adhere.
One should know this is not one's own private parlour. Oh, he'll be back. It happened quite a number of times
to other members.
stay well and be respectful as you have always been.
Posts: 7557
Gender:violaciao

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mikalek
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #450 - on: 30.08.2011 at 19:00 [UT+1] »Quote from marydaze on 30.08.2011 at 16:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 30.08.2011 at 15:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Forum Admin on 30.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:
We have warned forum member ZappoII because of his continued campaign against modern
astrology practice and the permanent attacks against the mainstream astrologers who follow it.
He is on temporary ban, to cool down.

That is a shame.

Posts: 1473
Gender:Yes, it is.

It is.
There is memebers who is way more insulting than Zappo, who seldom does that.
.. Not that I even remarked that the deleted post was specially insulting at all, specially not compared to what
other posters rutinely spits out.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #451 - on: 30.08.2011 at 20:38 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 30.08.2011 at 15:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Forum Admin on 30.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:
We have warned forum member ZappoII because of his continued campaign against modern astrology
practice and the permanent attacks against the mainstream astrologers who follow it.
He is on temporary ban, to cool down.

That is a shame.

Indeed. I have not seen them as attacks, so much as providing an alternative perspective - admittedly
sometimes with a bit too much emotion. But always with more content than the opposing "nyah-nyah" repliesof those who feel offended.
I consider myself a bleeding-edge modern astrologer, and I share Zappo's disdain for suffering fools. Especiallygroup-think fools. I just tend to be a bit more diplomatic about it.
- Ed
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IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #452 - on: 31.08.2011 at 00:43 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 30.08.2011 at 20:38 [UT+1]:
Indeed. I have not seen them as attacks, so much as providing an alternative perspective - admittedly sometimes with a bit too muchemotion. But always with more content than the opposing "nyah-nyah" replies of those who feel offended.
I consider myself a bleeding-edge modern astrologer, and I share Zappo's disdain for suffering fools. Especially group-think fools. I justtend to be a bit more diplomatic about it.
- Ed

Agreed Ed.
I always enjoy reading Zappo's posts, they are clear, informative and often funny. His tone doesn't bother me,
and I usually agree with him.
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viola magmar

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #453 - on: 31.08.2011 at 08:04 [UT+1] »That's nice to read how many soft souls are here to share. All so liberal and that's good. Still, there is noliberality without reciprocal respect, if I may.
That's why I feel some members abuse of such a goodness although goodness might be a bliss to the good
ones...
and sometimes one does oh how much does need to "feel being ohh so good..." (this is limitative, itmarks a boundary in ones' expansion, though).
In the end, what is considered "modern" nowadays, will be seen as "traditional" in some a hundreds of years so,
Posts: 7557
Gender:why argue: even Zappo II will have to subside to future, temporaneous reality when his turn will come to be
seen as "past"- unless he too considers himself as being an ever recycling soul, in which case, ops, there he
and all of us will be again, having learnt some lesson, hopefully.
enjoy yourself, it is a sunny day. violaciao

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Jogi64

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #454 - on: 31.08.2011 at 09:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 30.08.2011 at 20:38 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 30.08.2011 at 15:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Forum Admin on 30.08.2011 at 15:04 [UT+1]:
We have warned forum member ZappoII because of his continued campaign against modern
astrology practice and the permanent attacks against the mainstream astrologers who follow
it.He is on temporary ban, to cool down.

That is a shame.

Posts: 1042
Gender:Indeed. I have not seen them as attacks, so much as providing an alternative perspective - admittedly sometimes with a bit too muchemotion. But always with more content than the opposing "nyah-nyah" replies of those who feel offended.

I also have to agree - although sometimes my choice of words would have been slightly different. But Zappo is
Zappo, and this is what he is supposed to be.
There have been far more aggressive and insulting posts from a few mainstream astrologers.

Here's something I find quite interesting. Is it possible that when modern mainstream astrologers facetraditional oriented astrologers they are virtually encounter H. Why? (Typical H traits are italicized).
- First of all traditional oriented astrologers embody the main energy and function of H because they try to
overcome and expand mainstream ideas and habits. They scrutinize and sometimes break down establishedstructures.
- They revive methods and techniques that lead to an expansion of our (astrological) consciousness andknowledge.
- They are willing to experiment and they are inventive because they strive to combine traditional and modern
methods.
- They are deviating from mass-thinking, they are unorthodox and unconventional compared to what iscommonly known and accepted - and thus they are seen as rebels, disturbers and troublemakers. But in reality
they are individual, unique, revolutionary and original because they are agents of change and swim against the
tide.
This is strange, isn't it?
Jogi

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IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #455 - on: 31.08.2011 at 09:54 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 31.08.2011 at 09:24 [UT+1]:
Here's something I find quite interesting. Is it possible that when modern mainstream astrologers face traditional oriented astrologers they
are virtually encounter

H. Why? (Typical H traits are italicized).
H- First of all traditional oriented astrologers embody the main energy and function of
because they try to overcome and expand
mainstream ideas and habits. They scrutinize and sometimes break down established structures.
- They revive methods and techniques that lead to an expansion of our (astrological) consciousness and knowledge.
- They are willing to experiment and they are inventive because they strive to combine traditional and modern methods.
- They are deviating from mass-thinking, they are unorthodox and unconventional compared to what is commonly known and accepted and thus they are seen as rebels, disturbers and troublemakers. But in reality they are individual, unique, revolutionary and original
because they are agents of change and swim against the tide.
This is strange, isn't it?
Jogi

Yes it is! Ironic is what I'd call it.
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #456 - on: 31.08.2011 at 09:57 [UT+1] »personally i do not doubt that zappo (and all others that lean the same way) has a good understandings of
traditional astrological techniques, but zappo is seriously lacking in forum ettiqette.

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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #457 - on: 31.08.2011 at 10:10 [UT+1] »Well, when I told zappo I liked him & that he made me laugh which I did / he did, he turned on me like a rattlesnake. I think he is rude, aggressive & downright nasty to other astrologers on this forum who are not
traditionalists.
The tone of his posts did not sound right to me like other traditionalists they sounded like they were on a witch
Posts: 1185
Gender:hunt.
I thought it interesting that when forum admin deleted his posts he immediately pointed out his sidekicks
posts, trying to rope him into the foray, then he quickly said he did not want Paul's posts deleted. But hepointed them out anyway.
I just think there are people who have a lot to offer but would be frightened to post because of the imminent
sniper attacks from the trads. They like to intimidate others, make them feel inadequate, it is them who are
inadequate if they need to do that they should go to the other branches. Psych & general board is not about
preaching the trads view & force feeding it down others throats. They were looking for trouble. It's good hehas been warned. So should Paul be warned, too.

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MaryD

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #458 - on: 31.08.2011 at 10:39 [UT+1] »Quote from loulouaz on 31.08.2011 at 10:10 [UT+1]:
Well, when I told zappo I liked him & that he made me laugh which I did / he did, he turned on me like a rattle snake. I think he is rude,
aggressive & downright nasty to other astrologers on this forum who are not traditionalists.
The tone of his posts did not sound right to me like other traditionalists they sounded like they were on a witch hunt.
I thought it interesting that when forum admin deleted his posts he immediately pointed out his sidekicks posts, trying to rope him into
the foray, then he quickly said he did not want Paul's posts deleted. But he pointed them out anyway.
I just think there are people who have a lot to offer but would be frightened to post because of the imminent sniper attacks from thetrads. They like to intimidate others, make them feel inadequate, it is them who are inadequate if they need to do that they should go to
the other branches. Psych & general board is not about preaching the trads view & force feeding it down others throats. They were looking
for trouble. It's good he has been warned. So should Paul be warned, too.

Posts: 1258
Gender:As someone who has followed this thread and other's of similar nature, I could say the same warning should
apply to you too loulouaz.
Many of your posts have been far from diplomatic.
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MaryD

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #459 - on: 31.08.2011 at 10:44 [UT+1] »Quote from Lynne on 31.08.2011 at 09:54 [UT+1]:
Quote from Jogi64 on 31.08.2011 at 09:24 [UT+1]:
Here's something I find quite interesting. Is it possible that when modern mainstream astrologers face traditional oriented
astrologers they are virtually encounter

H. Why? (Typical H traits are italicized).
H- First of all traditional oriented astrologers embody the main energy and function of
because they try to overcome andexpand mainstream ideas and habits. They scrutinize and sometimes break down established structures.
- They revive methods and techniques that lead to an expansion of our (astrological) consciousness and knowledge.
- They are willing to experiment and they are inventive because they strive to combine traditional and modern methods.
- They are deviating from mass-thinking, they are unorthodox and unconventional compared to what is commonly known
and accepted - and thus they are seen as rebels, disturbers and troublemakers. But in reality they are individual, unique,

Posts: 1258
Gender:revolutionary and original because they are agents of change and swim against the tide.
This is strange, isn't it?
Jogi

Yes it is! Ironic is what I'd call it.

Nicely put Jogi!
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IP Loggedchang*lingMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #460 - on: 31.08.2011 at 13:36 [UT+1] »in my understanding of reviving methods is that there are so many different systems for all the methods, andthis not being caused by the 21th centurists but by hellencists, the revivalists and astrologers of medieval
times, not having a full biographic display of comprehensible techiniques used, which within itself becomes amatter of personal choice and discretion, that anybody believing that "one system is the only system" is limitedby their own creational vision.
traditional methods, revivalists methods, medieval methods and the modern fusional methods are all equal invalidity and for anybody to believe otherwise is dogmatic and "thumping".
if any sector of methodology is left out, i apologize but please feel included as being valid as well.
Posts: 3624

a problem with being an idealist is that it does not deal with the present situation at hand as being valid in any
context.
living in the future is as much as a problem as living in the past, as it is all a constraint of imagining and notthe "reality" that we find ourselves presently within.

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viola magmar

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #461 - on: 31.08.2011 at 13:49 [UT+1] »from Jogi64"Indeed. I have not seen them as attacks, so much as providing an alternative perspective - admittedly
sometimes with a bit too much emotion. But always with more content than the opposing "nyah-nyah" repliesof those who feel offended. [/quote]I also have to agree - although sometimes my choice of words would have been slightly different. But Zappo is
Zappo, and this is what he is supposed to be.
There have been far more aggressive and insulting posts from a few mainstream astrologers.
Posts: 7557
Gender:Here's something I find quite interesting. Is it possible that when modern mainstream astrologers facetraditional oriented astrologers they are virtually encounter H. Why? (Typical H traits are italicized).
- First of all traditional oriented astrologers embody the main energy and function of H because they try to
overcome and expand mainstream ideas and habits. They scrutinize and sometimes break down establishedstructures.
- They revive methods and techniques that lead to an expansion of our (astrological) consciousness andknowledge.
- They are willing to experiment and they are inventive because they strive to combine traditional and modern
methods.
- They are deviating from mass-thinking, they are unorthodox and unconventional compared to what iscommonly known and accepted - and thus they are seen as rebels, disturbers and troublemakers. But in reality
they are individual, unique, revolutionary and original because they are agents of change and swim against the
tide.
This is strange, isn't it?
Jogi

Hi, I would not say that is "strange". On the contrary, rather typically Uranian.. It defines me in quite a numberof aspects.
I reckon it would be just too fair to somehow make it clear that there should be a difference: being in such a
way Uranian does not entitle anyone being sort of part of a group/forum to be preposterous
Why, some members here are so good and patient and willing to share and possibly even teach, that they could
establish their own school!
ciaodaviola
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loulouazMember

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #462 - on: 31.08.2011 at 14:13 [UT+1] »Quote from marydaze on 31.08.2011 at 10:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from loulouaz on 31.08.2011 at 10:10 [UT+1]:
Well, when I told zappo I liked him & that he made me laugh which I did / he did, he turned on me like a rattle snake. I
think he is rude, aggressive & downright nasty to other astrologers on this forum who are not traditionalists.
The tone of his posts did not sound right to me like other traditionalists they sounded like they were on a witch hunt.

Posts: 1185
Gender:I thought it interesting that when forum admin deleted his posts he immediately pointed out his sidekicks posts, trying torope him into the foray, then he quickly said he did not want Paul's posts deleted. But he pointed them out anyway.
I just think there are people who have a lot to offer but would be frightened to post because of the imminent sniper
attacks from the trads. They like to intimidate others, make them feel inadequate, it is them who are inadequate if theyneed to do that they should go to the other branches. Psych & general board is not about preaching the trads view & force
feeding it down others throats. They were looking for trouble. It's good he has been warned. So should

Paul be warned, too.

As someone who has followed this thread and other's of similar nature, I could say the same warning should apply to you too loulouaz.
Many of your posts have been far from diplomatic.

Well, I start out polite but if zappo or paul make silly, unpleasant remarks to me & other I'm not going to keep
quiet & let them get away with it.
Everyone has something to contribute, & those two act like they are somehow better than others, that they
have some sort of right to talk down to others because they are "traditionalists" & are therefore endowed witha superior knowledge to everyone else. Yeah, in their dreams. They are not doing it to me.
I'll just skip their posts from now on to save the hassle. Not interested.
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else though.
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Matrika Matters

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #463 - on: 31.08.2011 at 14:46 [UT+1] »Quote:
Well, I start out polite but if zappo or paul make silly, unpleasant remarks to me & other I'm not going to keep quiet & let them get awaywith it.
Everyone has something to contribute, & those two act like they are somehow better than others, that they have some sort of right to talkPosts: 7405

down to others because they are "traditionalists" & are therefore endowed with a superior knowledge to everyone else. Yeah, in their
dreams. They are not doing it to me.
I'll just skip their posts from now on to save the hassle. Not interested.
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else though

You have not offended me at all however, as I just came to this thread hoping to be informed, I would notethat you are not on topic and the tone is victim, blaming, self righteous and there is nothing in the post
relating to which house rules astrology. I am not happy to have wasted some mental energy here.

If you could all simply address the topic please? I could care less about your dislike of each other, it is totallyirrelevant to the topic.
If someone goes off topic, it is better to ignore them than to address or disagree with them and to pleaseaddress the topic which is of interest to members whereas the disagreement is simply boring projection andmore of the same childish trivia. (IMO)
I have not read the thread and I thought 9H as it rules philosophy and higher studies? And O was what I wastaught and encouraged to study with...as I have a FpO...may have been mislead and pandering to my ownego.
As we are all currently experiencing a Pluto o Uranus transit, isn't it indicated as people interested in andinformed about astrology that we will make an effort to rise above the tearing of the social and cultural andpolitical fabric that is currently happening and communicate respectfully with each other? I am not happy tocome here and read this ...trivia...I use electricity (ie carbon) and waste energy on this...the forum may as well
just shut up shop right now (as a subsidized arena).
It is a tragic fact that each of the participants in this forum have access to a computer.

For what? Meaninglesshostilities?
Hardly worth offering the financed space for individuals to insult each other endlessly as appears to behappening).
Truly, wouldn't it be better for us all to donate the money we spend monthly to access the forum to people
somewhere who don't have the resources to get online...rather than squabble in this expensive and carbon
wasting environment with no positive return?
Uranus o Pluto. It has a meaning beyond trivial hostilities. Please think about what you are taking up mymental space with. I am and i am not happy with it.
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Stephen Baxter
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #464 - on: 31.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1] »Rex Bills in The Rulership Book indicates k and O for astrology. Many other astrologers do to.
William Lilly, over 400 years agos, established a naturel connection between Aquarius and the 11th house. I
quote:
11th House

It doth naturally represent friends and friendship, hope, trust, confidence, the praise or dispraise of any one;the fidelity or falseness of friends; as to kings it personates their favourites, councillors, servants, theirassociates or allies, their money, exchequer or treasure; in war their ammunition and soldiery; it represents
courtiers, &c., in a Common-wealth governed by a few of the nobles and commons, it personates theirassistance in council: as in London the tenth house represents the lord Major; the eleventh the Commoncouncil; the Ascendant the generality of the commoners of the said city.
Of members it ruleth the legs to the ankles. Of colours, it ruleth the saffron or yellow.
It hath of the signs Aquarius, and Sun of the planets, for cosignificators; Jupiter doth especially rejoice in thishouse; it's a succeedent house, and masculine, and in virtue is equivalent either to the seventh or fourthhouses.
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loulouaz

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #465 - on: 31.08.2011 at 14:51 [UT+1] »Quote from Matrika on 31.08.2011 at 14:46 [UT+1]:
Quote:
Well, I start out polite but if zappo or paul make silly, unpleasant remarks to me & other I'm not going to keep quiet & letthem get away with it.

Posts: 1185
Gender:Everyone has something to contribute, & those two act like they are somehow better than others, that they have some sortof right to talk down to others because they are "traditionalists" & are therefore endowed with a superior knowledge toeveryone else. Yeah, in their dreams. They are not doing it to me.
I'll just skip their posts from now on to save the hassle. Not interested.
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else though

You have not offended me at all however, as I just came to this thread hoping to be informed, I would note that you are not on topic andthe tone is victim and a bit blaming and there is nothing relating to which house rules astrology.

So if you could all simply address the topic please?
If someone goes off topic, it is better to ignore them than to address or disagree with them and to please address the topic which is ofinterest to members whereas the disagreement is simply boring projection and more of the same childish trivia. (IMO)
I have not read the thread and I thought 9H as it rules philosophy and higher studies? andstudy with..as I have a

O was what I was taught and encouraged to

FpO...may have been mislead and pandering to my own ego.

best wishes to all

Oh I didn't mean to sound Like a victim

I am no victim trust me. Never have been & don't intend to ever be

one either.
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Michelle
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #466 - on: 31.08.2011 at 14:52 [UT+1] »Stephen, this one's for you. The guy is just a troll. And it's about time he's been dealt with. He's been
flaming me since June.
Quote from Pallas27 on 21.08.2011 at 01:33 [UT+1]:
9th house for me (and Deb Houlding et al;);Places and situations where we seek guidance and wisdom from others. Where we reach out into the unknown in search of widening ourknowledge and understanding.
Dreams, visions, inspired thoughts, divination, astrology, mysticism, philosophy, beliefs; the desire to unite with something greater thanoneself.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html
Personally, I see astrology as divination which is a 9th house issue, in my book anyway.
I also follow horary rules; if you wish to consult an astrologer they are 7th house.

Quote from Michelle on 21.08.2011 at 16:01 [UT+1]:
Hi, Pallas
Your/Deborah Houlding's (The Houses: Temples of the Sky) logic is sound for astrology belonging to H9...

Quote from ZappoII on 21.08.2011 at 20:17 [UT+1]:
It is said that the 9th house signifies foreign languages. Since each language works "in its own unique way" maybe it's more accurate toassign different houses to the various languages. I offer for consideration the 2nd house for French, the 6th house for Dutch and the 11thhouse for Polish. Feel free to switch those around to suit your own preferences.
Quote:
Your/Deborah Houlding's (The Houses: Temples of the Sky) logic is sound for astrology belonging to H9.

Just what, exactly, is astrology belonging to the 9th house? Are the different kinds of astrology pure enough to be 'housed' completely
separately? If they use the same planets with the same symbolism located in the same signs, making the same aspects, then I sure can't
see an easy classification into 9th, 8th, 12th, 11th and - apparently - even 3rd house astrology.
Yep, astrologers look like a bunch of dipshits alright.

Quote from ZappoII on 22.08.2011 at 03:57 [UT+1]:

k

Back on page 5 the old/H11 thread was mentioned. I got to thinking --- In that thread the case was made for science and scientists
being found in the 11th house rather than the 9th. Following the logic of the idea in the current thread that the different kinds of astrology
need to be placed in different houses, then it stands to reason that the same would need to be done with science and scientists. Botany,
astronomy and volcanology couldn't share one house. With the numerous branches of science we would manage to fill up all the houses inno time.

The traditional 9th house placement of both science and astrology still is the best choice - and probably
the only valid one. As it happens, both western science and western horoscopic astrology developed fromthe western philosophical tradition (9th house). As others have mentioned, astrology has connections to
9th house divination.

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Yukionna

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #467 - on: 31.08.2011 at 17:54 [UT+1] »Talking negatively about someone who can't be here to speak up for himself is gutless behaviour. I find it all quite
disgusting.

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Michelle
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #468 - on: 31.08.2011 at 18:02 [UT+1] »That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if he agrees with you, he still flames. He's done that to several people. Over and over.
For months. I believe that's a definition of a troll, and the reason he was banned. And I have told him that
before, as have many others.
Looking the other way while he's steamrolling over others is what I consider gutless behavior.
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viola magmar

Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #469 - on: 31.08.2011 at 18:42 [UT+1] »Michelle, I am definitely with you. Uhhh, I think he can read but not publish. In any case, this is my last go. All
this much ado about nothing. Although some participation is obliged, I think we had enough, had we not?
Stay well, ciaodaviola

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Michelle
Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #470 - on: 31.08.2011 at 18:55 [UT+1] »Viola,
I agree with you!

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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #471 - on: 31.08.2011 at 20:10 [UT+1] »Quote from Jogi64 on 31.08.2011 at 09:24 [UT+1]:
This is strange, isn't it?
Jogi

Not so much strange as ironic. But then there was the Renaissance too.
- Ed
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mikalek

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?

Member« Reply #472 - on: 31.08.2011 at 22:17 [UT+1] »Simon Forman(10 January 1553 (greg.)) or 31 December 1552 – 5 or 12 September 1611)
Mc trine Uranus.
Asc trine Sun and Mercurious
but not on drawning.
-Posts: 1473
Gender:by the the way game; don't read about him, translate his chart first.
How his relation to the official world.?
How did he work. ?
that should be seen from the Astrological house

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Forman,_Simon
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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #473 - on: 01.09.2011 at 14:45 [UT+1] »Quote from mikalek on 31.08.2011 at 22:17 [UT+1]:
Simon Forman(10 January 1553 (greg.)) or 31 December 1552 – 5 or 12 September 1611)
Mc trine Uranus.
Asc trine Sun and Mercurious
but not on drawning.
-by the the way game; don't read about him, translate his chart first.
How his relation to the official world.?
How did he work. ?
that should be seen from the Astrological house

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Forman,_Simon

The day before his dath in 1611, he predicted it. Degree-per-year and solar arc were nearly the same at thattime. sa.Mars was square n.Sun and sa. Saturn from 8th was square Moon.
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mikalek
Member

Re: Which house rules astrology: 8th or 12th?
« Reply #474 - on: 01.09.2011 at 21:04 [UT+1] »I read it was a week before. his wife asked him in a kind of fun way.

Posts: 1473
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