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Gender and Identical Twins (Read 712 times)

Noel SwanEx Member

Gender and Identical Twins« on: 19.05.2015 at 22:25 [UT+1] »With the recent discussion about gender, I’m posting the charts of identical twin “boys” born 4 minutes apart
Both told us early on that they remember when I was the mother and they were daughters~sisters (past life
recall). When they started school, they were surrounded by girls, and even invited to girls-only slumber parties.
I finally cut their hair when they were seven because they said that they were tired of being asked, “What’s yourname, cutie (or sugar)?”
The birth was at home, recorded on video, and the first breaths were recorded on the camera: 2:15 PM and2:19 PM, July 2, 1983.
Yes, four minutes apart. Once Twin came, Twinn came rushing after. I barely caught a breath. Midwife Katie
caught Twin; midwife Julie caught Twinn; and neither baby let out a cry with the first breath.
The location was off the grid, 11.5 miles from the nearest town, so the coordinates were determined using
Google Earth and zooming in on the cabin.
Twin is expressive; Twinn is reserved.
Both were articulate at a very early age. One of our favorite stories: the trail to the cabin was steep andrequired four-wheel drive. We were retuning home after a very heavy rainstorm, water was pouring down thedirt “road,” and a portion had washed away. With the car as close to the hill as possible, we inched along very
slowly.
Twin said, “Precarious.”
Twinn said, “Precipitous.”
They were 25 months old: two years, one month.
In 2nd grade, the school psychologist asked permission to test them. Both scored over 150 IQ.
Both scored in the top 1% on the ACT, and both did two years of university. Both quit, saying that they were
not driven by a need for outward success.
One is an auto mechanic who loves his work and whose customer’s send him notes of thanks for his integrity,
insights, and helpfulness.
One is a Buddhist monastic who also loves his “work.” He also receives notes of thanks from retreatants who
appreciate his integrity, insights, and helpfulness.
Both are single, though they converse easily with both genders. (One photographer – a woman – told us, “If I
were younger, I’d take them both home with me. They are eye candy.”)
Both have “second sight,” and as children would describe auras around people, animals, and trees (their favorite
was juniper trees).
In tropical, they have Aries Moon; in sidereal, they have Pisces Moon.
The images show septiles because Twin has 14 septiles in the natal; and Twinn has 15. Both have the rarely
used vigintile (18° – awareness of other dimensions) between Asc and Pluto.
Anyone who has “identical” will tell you the same thing, “They are unique individuals.”
What in their charts makes them unique?
Thanks for responding,NoelBack to top

twins.JPG

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Alice Portman

Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #1 - on: 20.05.2015 at 03:45 [UT+1] »One of my favourite subjects!
I have written a small article on twins born close together in time: http://aliceportman.com/duads-duadcharts-show-the-differences-between-twins/
Posts: 2541
Gender:

The differences in such twins are clearly shown by duad charts. Duad charts work on the principle that eachsign of the zodiac has a mini zodiac within it; so each sign is divided into 12 segments of 2.5 degrees each andeach of these 2.5 degree segments are equal to a 30 degree sign of the zodiac - these degrees are called 'duad
degrees'.
Duad charts can be easily calculated on Solar Fire v 7 upwards. Go to the Chart menu, then down to the Vedic,
then Vedic12Dwadashama, click it then click OK and then click NO, this will give you the western duad chart,
not the Vedic duad chart.
Attached in this post is the duad chart of the first twin. As seconds in time can make a difference in thissystem, there may be slight adjustments to the duad charts if you could time the seconds as well as theminutes of when each twin took its first breath.
As you can see, the Cancer duad of Libra is on the Ascendant, and for the first born twin the degree is 5d09
with the duad Sun in partile trine from duad Scorpio, indicating this is the expressive twin.
The MC is in the 11th house at 16b21 in sesiquadrate to duad Ceres in duad Capricorn.
The Vertex is 25l50 conjunct the Node at 29l37 in the duad ninth house, suggesting this twin has a spiritualdestiny.
Duad Mercury,ruler of natal 9th house, is conjunct natal MC as well.
Duad charts will often pick up the zodiac degrees of members of the family and close connections with others.
They respond to transits and often explain why one twin has an event that the other doesn't experience untilmuch later.
... second twin in next post.
AliceBack to top

Twin_boy_Swan_duads_001.jpg

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Alice Portman
Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #2 - on: 20.05.2015 at 04:02 [UT+1] »This is the duad chart of the second born twinn.
As you can see, this duad Ascendant is 14d49 with Vertex in square from the 9th house. The Sun is not trine
the Ascendant, indicating this is the less expressive twin.
Posts: 2541
Gender:

The MC is conjunct Venus and the Moon is in a closer square to the Mercury-Mars conjunction - perhaps
suggesting this is the mechanical twin?
Duad Mars is also closer to natal MC than the first born twin.
Both duad charts also contain a number of septiles, which I consider is the 'seeking after wisdom' aspect.
Alice

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Twinn_boy_Swan_duads.jpg

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Noel SwanEx Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #3 - on: 20.05.2015 at 06:05 [UT+1] »Alice,
You are so kind. Thank you.
We've been so, so careful about attempting to make each feel 1-1. That is why I chose to write TwiN and TwiNN.
Twin, his name starts with A, pushed through first. He is the auto mechanic. He also meditates every day.
When you mention "spiritual destiny" were you referring to A? He works in a small shop and has arranged his
work so that he can interact with customers. He loves explaining things to them. He has said that he is like asannyasin: "my karma first; my spiritual time comes later."
TwiNN, his name starts with J, came second. He is the Buddhist monastic.
By reserved, it is like the birth: when they met someone new or started a new activity, A stepped forward first.
Of the two, A nursed more strongly. A always seemed to wake up first, and mornings are easier for him. A
smiles more quickly, and his handshake is firmer. They are the same height, yet A started growing taller slightly
before B.
Speaking on behalf of the breasts, B was a blessing. Such tenderness.

If their past life memory is true, I

can see B as daughter.
Thank you for the link to duads. Fascinating.
There were many babies born on the same day as A and J. They are have the same basic planetary pattern. Do
you think that there might be something like "the theme of the day?"
Do you have children?
What spurred your interest in twins?
I am going back to the website you suggested – so many pieces seem inviting.
Thank you again. You are a blessing.
Noel
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diana_D
Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #4 - on: 20.05.2015 at 08:03 [UT+1] »THANK YOU for this thread, it's fascinating. It confirms a theory I have, that even individuals born at the exact
same time and location might be different.

Posts: 714
Gender:Another way to explain that would be the 3 planets that govern the AC - plenty to choose from in terms ofmanifesting themselves - Pluto, Saturn and most importantly Venus, so well placed on MC.
As for their high IQ, lovely House 9, with Mercury, the ruler, being there, in Cancer, which brings depth. The
tight conjunction to Mars adds to that.
Their AC is conj Spica, a very fortunate star.

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zippyMember

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #5 - on: 30.05.2015 at 17:49 [UT+1] »I'm dating an identical twin, so I've been very interested in this subject. And like you, the first born twin is themore aggressive, leadership style person, the 2nd born, much more reserved and 'sensitive' person. Reallycomplete opposites. I've found much on the internet regarding this phenomenon and it is extremely common
in twins raised together (while twins raised apart tend toward very similar lives).
Posts: 8143

I've looked at many astrologers methods of differentiating twin charts but I think Mona Riegger has a uniquemethod that seems to 'fit', IMO. And yes, she is the mother of twins. I found her method of individulizing theSun for one and the Moon for the other to be quite fitting, and also she uses the ASC and it's ruler for theolder twin and the DC and it's ruler for the younger twin. She does use the Composite for this, but with a 4
minute difference in bt's it's negligible.
If I were to guess, and this twin studies is rather new to me, I would guess that it is the 2nd born "Twinn" thatis the monk.
Here's a couple of articles by Mona, you'll need google translate:
http://www.sternwelten.net/bereiche-astrologie/verschiedene-theman/581-zwillings horoskopecombin.html
http://www.sternwelten.net/bereiche-astrologie/verschiedene-theman/614-zwillings horoskopecombin-2.html

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Noel SwanEx Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #6 - on: 30.05.2015 at 23:31 [UT+1] »Thank you Zippy,
You are right, the second born, Jason, is the monastic. When I wrote that he was more reserved, I meant thatwhenever the two were together and met a new situation or a new person, Jason always waited for the firstborn to take the first step, just like in the birth.
I read Mona Riegger’s articles. Thank you.
I have learned about a very exotic system used in Hindu/Vedic astrology that shows the boys differences morethan anything I have found. This chart is called D-150, or Nadiamsa and must be read using the nakshatras, or
Vedic lunar mansions.
Best wishes to you and all whom you love
Noel
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fredvoss

Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #7 - on: 05.06.2015 at 19:29 [UT+1] »Dear members:
I refer to a discussion by German internet.
Posts: 626
Gender:Anybody present the radices of two twins.
Question: one has asthma, one not.
Some people try it out, same not.
The birth-time differate by 20 minutes.
Twins are not the same. They are two persons and two humans.
Astrologic can show, why it is so, partionly.
Yours respectfullyFred Voss

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ganglion
Ex Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #8 - on: 06.06.2015 at 23:33 [UT+1] »Quote from fredvoss on 05.06.2015 at 19:29 [UT+1]:
Dear members:
I refer to a discussion by German internet.

Could you give me a link?
The subject is indeed important and I appreciate all the above contributions. But I would like to to bring insome nuances in the broadly held views. Your summary states the major paradigm's well.
Quote:
Anybody present the radices of two twins.
Question: one has asthma, one not.

Asthma is a multi-factorial disease. Actually the outbreaks of most diseases (being sick, having clinical disease)are dependent on many factors that act or do not act at the same time. So even when being diagnosed as"asthmatic", one can have lucky times in which the disease is not manifest.
One can have a genetic predisposition to a certain disease, but that does not mean that the disease will
necessarily manifest itself, even not under (seemingly) the same environmental conditions. Even then it mostly
is just a matter of chance (relative risk).
Say you have 10% risk getting a manifest disease within a year with a certain behaviour or a certain genetic
predisposition. Some 10% of a large sample will show the disease in the first year. After 20 years most willshow it, but not all.
So the argument "one has asthma, one not" is not a good reason to search for "significant" differences in chartsof twins, as most of the seemingly differences in any person at a certain time will be determined by (often
unpredictable) environmental effects or just by chance. As charts do - in the best case, when astrology makes
scientific sense - not absolutely predict the factual occurrences of happenings, but the relative risks (there willbe also some aspect pleading against it) . And who can determine that the exception of the rule will this time
not be true? But even taking into account (in a scientific way) many, many factors, astrology cannot predict
exactly.
When talking about twins, is is good to realise that even "identical twins" are not 100% genetic identical. And
they will differ in utero and during delivery. The first born, the Esau in the Tenach, will be the privileged one in
the survival of the fittest.
Twin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin
Quote:
Twins are two offspring produced by the same pregnancy.[1] Twins can either be monozygotic ("identical"), meaning that they candevelop from just one zygote that will then split and form two embryos, or dizygotic ("fraternal"), meaning that they can develop fromtwo different eggs, each are fertilized by separate sperm cells.[2]...
Genetic and epigenetic similarity
Monozygotic twins are genetically nearly identical and they are always the same sex unless there has been a mutation during
development. The children of monozygotic twins test genetically as half-siblings (or full siblings, if a pair of monozygotic twins reproduces
with another pair or with the same person), rather than first cousins. Identical twins do not have the same fingerprints, due to the factthat even in a small space inside the womb, people have contact with different parts of this environment, which gives small variations inthe same digital, making them unique.[23] Monozygotic twins always have different phenotypes. Normally due to an environmental factor
or the deactivation of different X chromosomes in female monozygotic twins, and in some extremely rare cases, due to aneuploidy, twins
may express different sexual phenotypes, normally from an XXY Klinefelter syndrome zygote splitting unevenly.[24][25][26]Monozygotic twins, although genetically very similar, are not genetically exactly the same. The DNA in white blood cells of 66 pairs ofmonozygotic twins was analyzed for 506,786 single nucleotide polymorphisms known to occur in human populations. Polymorphisms
appeared in 2 of the 33 million comparisons, leading the researchers to extrapolate that the blood cells of monozygotic twins may have on
the order of one DNA-sequence difference for every 1.2 x 107 nucleotides, which would imply hundreds of differences across the entire
genome.[27] The mutations producing the differences detected in this study would have occurred during embryonic cell-division (after the
point of fertilization). If they occur early in fetal development, they will be present in a very large proportion of body cells.
Another cause of difference between monozygotic twins is epigenetic modification, caused by differing environmental influences throughout
their lives. Epigenetics refers to the level of activity of any particular gene. A gene may become switched on, switched off, or could
become partially switched on or off in an individual. This epigenetic modification is triggered by environmental events. Monozygotic twins
can have markedly different epigenetic profiles. A study of 80 pairs of monozygotic twins ranging in age from three to 74 showed that the
youngest twins have relatively few epigenetic differences. The number of epigenetic differences increases with age. Fifty-year-old twins
had over three times the epigenetic difference of three-year-old twins. Twins who had spent their lives apart (such as those adopted by
two different sets of parents at birth) had the greatest difference.[28] However, certain characteristics become more alike as twins age,such as IQ and personality. This phenomenon illustrates the influence of genetics in many aspects of human characteristics and behavior.
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AJ_88

Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #9 - on: 07.06.2015 at 00:02 [UT+1] »I was going to suggest using the twelth parts but alice beat me to it. I never thought to examine their lineage
from the jyotish lens. Thanks Alice.

Posts: 869
Gender:Back to top

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ganglion
Ex Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #10 - on: 07.06.2015 at 00:52 [UT+1] »Dizygotic twins and even better not related "astrological twins" studies are cardinal for the scientific study ofastrology.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/dizygotic+twins
Because if identical and for the study of astrology even more important genetically much more different
dizygotic twins, would not share most of their being born on a certain place and time chart characteristics. Even
the arguments about little unlikely, but well documented against any odds "astrological twins" studies of John
Anthony West & Jan Gerhard Toonder in the "The case for astrology”, Quest Books, 1970" would be lost.
Twins and Astrology
http://thezodiac.com/weird/twinsastrology.htm
I published in 2010 my the likelihood of having a certain enneagram type statical astrological study, when beingborn on a certain time. The extremely significant results were astonishing me, so I got on with my weird
project. But what was annoying to me that most twins , according to some (not all) enneagram researchers
differed in enneatype. And that was not what I did calculate.
Enneagram Introduction, Theory, and Research
http://www.9types.com/writeup/enneagram.html
Quote:
7. Is one's Enneagram type inherited? Somewhat. Most twins are different Enneagram types, although many are adjacent types.

How could I explain this? One can objectively see that they extremely look the same, but still they are
different?
The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul
http://www.sandramaitri.com/pdfs/spiritual_chap_1.pdf
Quote:
Chapter 1
The Inner Triangle and the Fall
The figure of the enneagram is made up of an inner triangle linking Points Nine, Six, and Three, and an outer shape formed by the linkingof Points One, Four, Two, Eight, Five, and Seven

The funny thing is , that our individual souls are one whole. I used many times the one-way-street metaphor of
the mushroom Elf ring for it. Underground being one creature (mould), but with different aspects above theground (the individual mushrooms). Who am I?

The Enneagram and the ego's claim to knowledge
www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?
Quote:
Any individual mushroom might claim he had the better body, thinking he is ... but forgot he is still part of the mostly underground living
mould.

Determines the amount of white points you unity as a Amanita muscaria?

If I am the ego, I want to be unique (the Lions sin in the 12 tonal astrological system, the 4 delusion in the 9points Sufi enneagram). So when I was born Jacob with a twin brother Esau, I (the ego) initially feels that I

must be unique (at the cost of the rest). Which does not imply according to the evolution theory (the blindwatchmaker, the biblical blind Isaac Archfather) , that the unique son is better than the initially chosen other.
They are all part of a process. For this reason the archetypal biblical twins have to confront each other again.
In the Bible twins seem extreme opposites. But they always have to unite. Which implies that they realise thatthey do not differ that much from another. As they share the same origin (tree of life). And this also happened
to the 12 stems of Israel and the current multitudes of it. We are still one (when looking inside).
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ganglion

Ex Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #11 - on: 07.06.2015 at 01:10 [UT+1] »Frequently asked questions. General Issues > Twins
http://www.astro.com/faq/fq_gen_twins_e.htm
Why can twins - who have an almost identical chart - be very different? Quote:
The simple answer is that twins divide the chart between them. Every horoscope contains several themes, archetypal figures, innercontradictions, etc. A child who is not born a twin will settle this within his or her own personality, choose to live some of these issues andkeep others in the background. In the course of his/her life, some of the formerly unconscious issues will be developed and expressed. The
different roles within the personality are all there as dispositions at the beginning of the child's life but will be developed at different
times.

Another not (as it seems obvious to astrologers ) not that often stated question is:
Frequently asked questions
Why can I - having one clear chart - be so very different from moment to moment? [quote]Who am i? Do I really exist. And where do I finally exits? Ask G.
Re: what is enlightenment, and how astrology refle
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1420821863/500
Quote:
Maybe it helps that Gurdjieff made us aware of the fact that there are different levels of consciousness and self awareness.

And that there are many ego (here I am) fallacies.
Psychological projection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection Quote:
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their
existence in themselves, while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people ofbeing rude.
According to some research, the projection of one's negative qualities onto others is a common process in everyday life.[2]I think we are projecting many times a day. Actually without projecting (and mirroring) our views on the world
onto others, we could not exist, see and experience the feedback from our projected self image
In this way our projections and reflections show us (in essence a function of the bigger than us mould) the
mushroom road.

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Re: Gender and Identical Twins

ganglion
Ex Member« Reply #12 - on: 07.06.2015 at 02:24 [UT+1] »The point is that every one/ego born with a more or less conscious ego, thinks or intuitively knows that he isunique person, that can do things in its own way. That seems astrologically and practically seen a fiction. We
can not do it on ourselves alone and need helpers from the other side (siblings, friends and soul mates).
We are at our best a human twin, an ape, a chicken experiencing something as being thrown on earth (out ot
Paradise) . Like a rolling stone, knowing what is happening in the not by us directed show.
But the animals know there place in the "here and now" and are unlike us not afraid of death, as only humans
are looking in the (her and know) far away future. We even invented spirituality and religion to deal with it.
Simon & Garfunkel - The Sound Of Silence+The Boxer+Bridge Over Troubled
Water+Mrs.Robinson+More! HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKZFdkCUksg
But rough mankind is more Like a Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F0ytNzHDj8
Knockin' On Heaven's Door - Bob Dylan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPg2M1UYgU
Quote:
Canto dos Clássicos

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fredvoss

Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #13 - on: 08.06.2015 at 18:43 [UT+1] »dear members:
such discussions by internet have a short live and are not available at this time.
Posts: 626
Gender:I will try to find the 2 radices into my material at home. Perhaps I find it.
Yours respectfullyFred Voss

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fredvoss
Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #14 - on: 15.06.2015 at 19:05 [UT+1] »Dear members:
now the tow radixes of twins, woman.

Posts: 626
Gender:

The elder have had asthma. The younger have it not.
Yours respectfullyFred VossBack to top

twins-asthma-showpicture_001.jpg

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lilalaMember

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #15 - on: 15.06.2015 at 19:42 [UT+1] »Perhaps I already mentioned it in another thread, but while studying astrology I had to make an exercice using
Midpoints.
It was about identical twin girls, one a learned and successful doctor, her sister simple minded and living in anursing home. Using midpoints it was not complicated to say who was who.

Posts: 1014
Gender:Back to top

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Alice Portman
Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #16 - on: 16.06.2015 at 05:45 [UT+1] »Quote from fredvoss on 15.06.2015 at 19:05 [UT+1]:
Dear members:
now the tow radixes of twins, woman.

Posts: 2541
Gender:

The elder have had asthma. The younger have it not.
Yours respectfullyFred Voss

Hello Fredvoss
I have tried to calculate these charts and think the twins are born on 10 Sept 1988 in Wiesbaden, Germany
CEDT (-2.00) at 5.02 and 5.07 am respectively. However I get the first with an Ascendant of 26e28 and thesecond with an Ascendant of 27e22, which doesn't match with the Virgo Ascendant charts you have presented.
Have I got the data wrong in some way?
Alice
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fredvoss

Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #17 - on: 16.06.2015 at 19:45 [UT+1] »Dear members:by the origin writing the two radices and the Text named the littel twon Boppard in Germany.
Posts: 626
Gender:I am know nothing about Wiesbaden.
Both radices contend a predisposition for asthma. It is equal, on which place this poeple areborn.
Yours respectfullyFred Voss

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Alice Portman
Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #18 - on: 17.06.2015 at 02:20 [UT+1] »Hello again Fred Voss
Boppard is very near Wiesenban so I still get the Leo Ascendants.

Posts: 2541
Gender:attached are their charts.
If I don't use Daylight Savings Time I get Virgo Ascendants, but that was operative when they were born andfrom my experience Germans are very meticulous about these matters.
AliceBack to top

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ganglion

Ex Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #19 - on: 18.06.2015 at 00:27 [UT+1] »Quote from Noel Swan on 19.05.2015 at 22:25 [UT+1]:
Anyone who has “identical” will tell you the same thing, “They are unique individuals.”
What in their charts makes them unique?
Thanks for responding,Noel

I study the 360 degrees of the Zodiac of Koppejan, Dane Rudhyar and Marc Edmund Jones.
An Astrological Mandala: The Cycle of Transformations and Its 360 Symbolic Phases Paperback –April 12, 1974
http://www.amazon.com/An-Astrological-Mandala-Transformations-Symbolic/dp/039471 9921
Your twins have different degrees of the Zodiac. It matters for fast moving planets and houses.
Dane Rudhyar makes an interesting hypothesis about the four cardinal cusps in his book Astrological
Mandala dealing with the Sabian symbols:
1 Ascendant: What
4 IC, nadir: How?
7 Descendant: Where to?
10 MC: Why?
See the great website
The Sabian Symbols - Contents:
http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%2 0%20Contents.htm
For his own horoscope (page 444/12 of the Dutch translation) it predicted: Acs 14th Sag or WHAT meant:PHASE 254 (SAGITTARIUS 14°): THE GREAT PYRAMID AND THE SPHINX.
http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%2 0%20Sagittarius%201-15.htm
Quote:KEYNOTE: The enduring power of occult knowledge and of its quasi-divine Custodians, "Seed-men" of a previous cycle of existence.
The belief in an Original Tradition based on the perfect knowledge of the archetypal principles and forms which underlie all manifestationsof life on this Earth (and by extension in the cosmos) is deeply rooted in man's consciousness. The Great Pyramid and the Sphinx are
witnesses to such a Tradition, especially for the Western world. The symbol implies that such an archetypal knowledge remains thefoundation upon which men's minds can still build solid and valid formulations, as new evolutionary developments are pending. This fourthstage symbol suggests that this occult knowledge and the traditional process of acquiring it is still available, and that by accepting theirprinciples modern man can best meet the challenge of our present world crisis. The symbol, interpreted from a personal point of view,
points to the greatness of a Soul's past achievements and the value of trying to re-evoke this past. What is revealed is THE POWER OFSPIRITUAL ANCESTRY.

The Nadir of the HOW was found in his logical IC (90 degrees from the Asc) in the 12th degree Aries:
PHASE 12 (ARIES 12°): A TRIANGULARLY SHAPED FLIGHT OF WILD GEESE.
http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%2 0%20Aries%201-15.htm
Quote:KEYNOTE: An idealistic reliance upon a mental image of universal order.
The wild goose is the mystical bird, hamsa, of Hindu tradition. This word, which has recurred in various cultures (the Hansa League ofGermanic cities in the late Middle Ages, and El Hanza, the founder of the occult Brotherhood of the Druzes in Lebanon, during the era of
the Crusades), has always had at least an undertone of integration at an expansionistic level, spiritual or economic. The Hindu hamsa was
the symbol of man's transcendent soul. What previous interpretations of this Sabian symbol have failed to grasp is that the flight of geese
presents not only a remarkably geometrical V-shape moving through the sky, but also that this flight is seasonal and therefore attuned toplanetary rhythms. Thus, it symbolizes cosmic order, in contrast with the social-political order within a nation which is represented by its
ruler. It is order made visual on the background of the clear sky. It is a "celestial" type of order, even though it is earth-born birds which
reveal it by their ability to keep their flight structured. The symbol therefore refers to the Soul-consciousness as visualized by the heavenoriented mind. Yet this soul-consciousness can be called transcendent because it has not yet become "incarnated."
Because this is a second stage in the third five-fold sequence begun with Phase 11, we have to consider what it pictures in contrast to thepreceding symbol. A basic dualism of consciousness is thus suggested. We see arising a potential conflict between cosmic and social
principles of order. The principle of COSMIC ORDER polarizes the all-too-human reliance on the social concept of law and order.

The 7th cusp Descendant: WHERE TO? on Gemini 14 yields:
PHASE 14 (GEMINI 14°): BRIDGING PHYSICAL SPACE AND SOCIAL DISTINCTIONS, TWO MENCOMMUNICATE TELEPATHICALLY.
http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%2 0%20Gemini%201-15.htm
Quote:KEYNOTE: The capacity to transcend the limitations of bodily existence.
In order to function in the world of material entities man needs to focus the energies of life in a limited organism and an ego-mind that isformed by the pressures of a particular culture and family background. Yet a time comes when the individual can still transcend thelimiting boundaries of culture and ego. ..

His 10 MC: Why? was Libra 12
PHASE 192 (LIBRA 12°): MINERS ARE SURFACING FROM A DEEP COAL MINE.

http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%2 0%20Libra%201-15.htm
Quote:KEYNOTE: The need to carry on at ever-deeper levels the quest for knowledge which keeps burning the fires of the collective mind of asociety.

I hope this method can explain your question.
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ganglion
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Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #20 - on: 18.06.2015 at 01:00 [UT+1] »Note that 0-0.99999 counts as the first degree.
So having exactly Asc 11. 38 in Cancer fits with the 12 Degree of cancer.
Category:Asc 11 Cancer
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Asc_11_Cancer
Both Albert Einstein and Joseph Mengele belong to this group, if their birth-times are correct!
The Sabian Symbol WHAT of 12th degree of Cancer is according to Rudhyar .
PHASE 102 (CANCER 12°): A CHINESE WOMAN NURSING A BABY WHOSE AURA REVEALS HIM TO
BE THE REINCARNATION OF A GREAT TEACHER.
http://www.mindfire.ca/An%20Astrological%20Mandala/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%2 0%20Cancer%201-15.htm
Quote:KEYNOTE: The revelation of latent worth in an experience once it is seen in its deeper meaning.
In contrast to the “clown” symbol, which shows us man’s capacity to criticize and laugh at his superficial mannerisms and automatic habits
or gestures, we now have a symbol which demands that we look beyond common appearances and try to discover the “occult” (i.e.
hidden) character of every person and every experience. This symbol has been unduly glamorized: there is no particular reference here toan avatar or messiah, except in the sense that every man is potentially the avatar or manifestation of a Soul that has a definite andrelatively unique function in the vast field of activity we call the Earth. To discover this occult potential of being, one requires a deeper orhigher “vision,” a holistic perception — which is usually, but not always justifiably, called clairvoyance. The caricaturist also has to developa special kind of “seeing” to enable him to extract the salient features of an outer personality or of a face. He picks out the mostcharacteristic parts of a whole; the true clairvoyant perceives the essential meaning (or “message” and function) of the whole.
The contrast between the first and second symbols of this twenty-first five-fold sequence is indeed very significant. There may be no
particular meaning in the fact that the nursing woman in this symbol is Chinese. Perhaps the psychic who visualized the scene may havemistaken a Tibetan for a Chinese woman, and unconsciously thought of the rather familiar process through which a new Dalai Lama, orother great Lamas, are searched for among newborn babies. The Keyword is REVELATION.

Rudhyar (and Robert Hand) noticed that symbols (just like religious tales and mythts) can be explained on
several levels.
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ganglion

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Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #21 - on: 18.06.2015 at 01:19 [UT+1] »For those who do not know of the German physician and morbid twin researcher Josef Mengele :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
http://history1900s.about.com/od/auschwitz/a/mengeletwins.htm Quote:
But in May 1943, Mengele entered Auschwitz as an educated, experienced, medical researcher. With funding for his experiments, heworked alongside some of the top medical researchers of the time. Anxious to make a name for himself, Mengele searched for the secretsof heredity. The Nazi ideal of the future would benefit from the help of genetics: if Aryan women could assuredly give birth to twins who
were sure to be blond and blue eyed - then the future could be saved.
Mengele, as he learned while working for Professor Otmar Freiherr von Vershuer, believed that twins held these secrets. Auschwitz seemed
the best location for such research because of the large number of available twins to use as specimens.
The (Plutonian) Ramp
Mengele took his turn as the selector on the ramp, but unlike most of the other selectors, he arrived sober. With a small flick of his finger
or riding crop, a person would either be sent to the left or to the right, to the gas chamber or to hard labor. Mengele would get very
excited when finding twins.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jong,_Sally_de
Quote:
Dutch Jewish physician, who became an assistant of Joseph Mengele in his twin project and died after the war in KZ Buchenwald.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jong,_Loe_de Quote:
Dutch and Jewish historian and journalist, the writer of the Dutch standard work "The Kingdom of the Netherlands During World War II".
Louis de Jong was one of the male twins of the milkman Godfried de Jong (17 August 1891, Amsterdam - 4 June 1943, Sobibór, Poland)
and Betsij Aleng (22 December 1888, Amsterdam - 4 June 1943, Sobibór). He was named after his grandfather Lewi, but to prevent
discrimination, the parents changed the name Lewi to Louis. But Louis changed it again to the Jewish "Loe" in his penn-name Loe deJong.
Louis had an in his parents eyes very succesfull twin brother Salomon "Sally" de Jong (24 April 1914, Amsterdam - 31 May 1945,
Buchenwald or KZ Mittelbau-Dora), who became a PhD physician on 3 October 1940 in Amsterdam. Sally married Elisabeth de Jong-Van
Male (7 May 1915, Deventer – March 1944, Auschwitz) and got two children, who survived the Holocaust by going underground. Sally andElisabeth escaped July 1943 from Camp Westerbork and fled to France. But here they were captured, imprisoned in Camp Drancy and on
17 December transported to Auschwitz. When the Russians neared the camp, he was transported to Camp Buchenwald or the nearby KZ
Mittelbau-Dora, where he died of exhaustion after the war. Louis was jealous of his twin brother Sally, even after his tragic faith. In thesixties Louis had psychological treatment for it.

Why ?
Why Shoah?
Gorecki - The Symphony of Sorrowful Songs 3/6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7RZ7l2jubk
Shoa - Claude Lanzmann (Deutsch/German) 1/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adABMRTcsmc
BTW Post: 730/10/1
I did not invent these strange twins brothers. G'd did. They just occurred to me in some here and now..
G'd only knows why, as I am just an instrument/messenger/ADB editor of what I saw and recorded .
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Re: Gender and Identical Twins

ganglion
Ex Member« Reply #22 - on: 18.06.2015 at 02:14 [UT+1] »Gorecki - The Symphony of Sorrowful Songs 6/6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcpx9PJfCF0
Quote:BBC documentary about Gorecki Symphony No. 3

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
Mengele's Children: The Twins of Auschwitz
http://history1900s.about.com/od/auschwitz/a/mengeletwins.htm
Quote:The notorious doctor of Auschwitz, Josef Mengele, has become an enigma of the twentieth century. Mengele's handsome physicalappearance, fastidious dress, and calm demeanor greatly contradicted his attraction to murder and gruesome experiments.
Mengele's seeming omnipresence at the ramp as well as his fascination with twins have incited images of a mad, evil monster. His ability
to elude capture had increased his notoriety as well as given him a mystical and devious persona.
But in May 1943, Mengele entered Auschwitz as an educated, experienced, medical researcher. With funding for his experiments, heworked alongside some of the top medical researchers of the time. Anxious to make a name for himself, Mengele searched for the secretsof heredity. The Nazi ideal of the future would benefit from the help of genetics: if Aryan women could assuredly give birth to twins who
were sure to be blond and blue eyed - then the future could be saved.
Mengele, as he learned while working for Professor Otmar Freiherr von Vershuer, believed that twins held these secrets. Auschwitz seemed
the best location for such research because of the large number of available twins to use as specimens.
The (Plutonia) Ramp
Mengele took his turn as the selector on the ramp, but unlike most of the other selectors, he arrived sober. With a small flick of his finger
or riding crop, a person would either be sent to the left or to the right, to the gas chamber or to hard labor. Mengele would getvery excited when finding twins.
The other SS who helped unload the transports had been given special instructions to find twins, dwarfs, giants, or anyone else with aunique hereditary trait like a club foot or heterochromia (each eye a different color). Mengele's seeming omnipresence on the ramp
stemmed not only from his selection duty, but his additional appearance when it was not his turn as selector to ensure twins would not be
missed.
As the unsuspecting people were herded off the train and ordered into separate lines, SS would shout "Zwillinge!" ("twins!"). Parents wereforced to make a quick decision. Unsure of their situation, already being separated from family members when forced to form lines,
seeing barbed wire, smelling an unfamiliar stench - was it good or bad to be a twin?
Some parents did announce their twins. Some relatives, friends, or neighbors would announce the twins. Some mothers tried to hide theirtwins. The SS and Mengele would search through the surging ranks of people in search of twins and anyone with unusual traits. While
many twins were either announced or discovered, some sets of twins were successfully hidden and walked with their mother into the gaschamber.
Which was the right decision - to announce or not to announce their twins? I don't think there necessarily was one. Approximately three
thousand twins were pulled from the masses on the ramp, most of them children; only around two hundred survived.
When the twins were found, they were taken away from their parents.
Once the SS guard knew we were twins, Miriam and I were taken away from our mother, without any warning or explanation.
Our screams fell on deaf ears. I remember looking back and seeing my mother's arms stretched out in despair as we were led away by asoldier.
That was the last time I saw her.1
As the twins were led away to be processed, their parents and family stayed on the ramp and went through selection. Occasionally, if thetwins were very young Mengele would allow the mother to join her children in order for their health to be assured for the experiments.
Processing
After the twins had been taken from their parents, they were taken to the showers. Since they were "Mengele's children,"they were treated differently than other prisoners. Besides the obvious, suffering throughmedical experiments, the twins were often allowed to keep their hair and allowed to keep theirown clothes.
The twins were then tattooed. They were given a number from a special sequence.2 They were then taken to the twin's
barracks where they were required to fill out a form. The form asked for a brief history and basic measurements such as age and height.
Many of the twins were too young to fill the form out by themselves so the Zwillingsvater ("Twin's Father") helped them. (This inmate
was assigned to the job of taking care of the male twins.) Once the form was filled out, the twins were taken to Mengele. Mengele asked
them more questions and looked for any unusual traits.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/gw/ecclesiastes/passage/?q=ecclesiastes+3:1-15
Quote:
1 Everything has its own time, and there is a specific time for every activity under heaven:
4 a time to cry and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
7 a time to tear apart and a time to sew together, a time to keep quiet and a time to speak out,
10 I have seen mortals weighed down with a burden that God has placed on them.
.
15 Whatever has happened [in the past] is present now. Whatever is going to happen [in the future] has already happened [in the past].
God will call ..

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ganglion

Ex Member

Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #23 - on: 20.06.2015 at 01:39 [UT+1] »Quote from ganglion on 07.06.2015 at 01:10 [UT+1]:
Who am i? Do I really exist. And where do I finally exits? Ask G.
Re: what is enlightenment, and how astrology refle
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1420821863/500
Quote:
Maybe it helps that Gurdjieff made us aware of the fact that there are different levels of consciousness and self awareness.

Doing blunt statistics using my Sufi enneagram to astrology conversion method one can seldom finddifferences between twins, as most have the same planets in the signs and houses (and thus rulers of theirhouses).
What did Almaas say?
http://internationalenneagram.blogspot.nl Quote:
Are you suggesting that our type is determined by the specific time that we’re born, in the way that our time of birth determines ourastrological signs?
Yes, but there’s no detailed understanding about how. Astrologers won’t be able to figure it out because there’s no spelled-out theory
about it. It doesn’t happen because of your early experience. That’s not what determines your type.
Yes, my understanding is that your early childhood experiences can influence the relative level of health or degree of dysfunctionality –how strongly your fixation manifests in your early years.
Yes, exactly. That’s how I see it too. It determines how stuck you are in the fixation. But the fixation has already started to develop.
Yes, that’s my understanding, but are you also saying that it’s determined by the particular time of day, week, month we’re born?
Well, that’s implied. And I don’t know if somebody has knowledge of how that works – I’ve never heard of it.

The interview was given in 2005. He must have known that Palmer and others were astrologers. Already in1993 Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar has written a lot about the astrological origins of the Sufi enneagram.
http://www.sufienneagram.com/overview.html Quote:In the work of Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar Ph.D, the origins of the Enneagram symbol (see illustrations) are traced from within the Sufi Tradition ofCentral Asia. The Islamic Sufi tradition incorporated wisdom from past traditions including Pythagorean, Platonic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu,
Buddhist, Taoist and Zoroastrian Religions as long as that knowledge did not contradict the principle of Unity or belief in the Oneness ofGod.

Studying Pluto astrology researcher (or big dreamer) Jeff Green, I noticed that he started his on Pluto andmoon nodes based method with first studying the client. As astrological symbols can be expressed on many
levels (Maslov), you have to know before you do the prediction (message) if your client is a stone-bricker or anuniversity professor.
Quote:
Both scored in the top 1% on the ACT, and both did two years of university. Both quit, saying that they were not driven by a need foroutward success.

I entered your twins in my database. And I found unusual results (though both having the same E-scores).
Twin (30/3) was born on a 3, 6 and day (18/9)
with 3>6>9 dynamics (18/9)
under 2, 7 and 9 houses (18/9)
yielding a 7w6 or 9w1 twin (25/7)
Twin (30/3) was born on 3, 6 and 9 day (18/9)
with cp 6>3>9 dynamics (18/9)
under (1) 2 and 9 houses (11/2 or 12/3)
yielding a 3w4 or 9 twin (0)They seem to be born as type 9w1 (the most detached attachment type, like Jung and R. Wilhelm ) or asSaint (0) A Null type is not stuck.
The Peace keeper
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-9/
The Easygoing, Self-Effacing Type: Receptive, Reassuring, Agreeable, and ComplacentType Nine In Brief Quote:
Nines are accepting, trusting, and stable. They are usually creative, optimistic, and supportive, but can also be too willing to go along withothers to keep the peace. They want everything to go smoothly and be without conflict, but they can also tend to be complacent,simplifying problems and minimizing anything upsetting. They typically have problems with inertia and stubbornness. At Their Best:
indomitable and all-embracing, they are able to bring people together and heal conflicts.
Basic Fear: Of loss and separation
Basic Desire: To have inner stability and “peace of mind”
Enneagram Nine with an Eight-Wing: “The Referee”
Enneagram Nine with a One-Wing: “The Dreamer”
Key Motivations
Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would
upset or disturb them.
....
Levels of Health
Healthy Levels
1 (At Their Best) Become self-possessed, feeling autonomous and fulfilled: have great equanimity and contentment because they arepresent to themselves. Paradoxically, at one with self, and thus able to form more profound relationships. Intensely alive, fully connected
to self and others.
2 Deeply receptive, accepting, unselfconscious, emotionally stable and serene. Trusting of self and others, at ease with self and life,
innocent and simple. Patient, unpretentious, good-natured, genuinely nice people.
3 Optimistic, reassuring, supportive: have a healing and calming influence—harmonizing groups, bringing people together: a good
mediator, synthesizer, and communicator.
Average Levels

4 Fear conflicts, so become self-effacing and accommodating, idealizing others and “going along” with their wishes, saying “yes” to things
they do not really want to do. Fall into conventional roles and expectations. Use philosophies and stock sayings to deflect others.
..

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ganglion
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Re: Gender and Identical Twins« Reply #24 - on: 20.06.2015 at 02:53 [UT+1] »Null types are exceptional. The born with day (peers) and houses do not seem to match at all.
It predicts IMO a difficult but rewarding Spiritual path. But I would prefer the mechanic saint /helper if my car
was broke. As IMO the sacred exists in and with all levels. No brain without heart and liver.
Ohne Phosphor keine Gedanken
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Moleschott,_Jacob
Quote:
ofessor Moleschott was a popular lecturer, and his physiological researches are of value. Without asserting the impossibility of a spiritual
life, he explained the origin and condition of animals by the working of physical causes. His characteristic formula were "No thought
without phosphorus" and "the brain secretes thought as the liver secretes bile."

This born as a Romantic type 4 composer with extreme 8 houses was born under such a Null time:
The brilliant lady singer could be 9w8 (but I lack the born with time)
Handel: Arias and concertos with Magdalena Kozena | Andrea Marcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfZVMXlvDaY
The Mind Is Not The Brain - Scientific Evidence - Rupert Sheldrake - (Referenced Notes)
http://vimeo.com/33479544
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