2023

HARVARD-YENCHING
INSTITUTE WORKINGPAPER SERIES-

ミチコの人生―１回目のインタビューのナラティヴ

THE LIFE OF MICHIKO AOYAMA:A NARRATIVE

Aoyama Waka | The University of Tokyo

The Life of Michiko Aoyama: A Narrative
Waka Aoyama
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo

Abstract

These papers are part of the preparation for a piece of “kiki-gaki” (a style of oral history inJapanese) entitled Handing Over Memories: From Two Mothers to Their Daughters, to be
published in 2025. This work will weave together the narratives of two first-generation urban,
college-educated women who grew up as the descendants of poor settlers in Mindanao,
Philippines and Hokkaido, Japan (both of which served as "internal colonies" within theirrespective nation-states), respectively. The Japanese woman in this study is named Michiko(at her request, her last name is not given in the Japanese version). Her great-grandparents
were poor farmers who migrated from mainland Japan to Hokkaido in the 1920's. When she
was born in Sakhalin in 1944, her father was a coal miner. The author plans to conduct seven50-minute interviews at her home between December 2023 and June 2024. These studies areedited versions of the interviews. English translations of the entire interviews are included as
appendices to these studies. Some of the names of the persons and institutions in these studies
have been withheld to maintain confidentiality.

Keywords: Japan, Hokkaido, Sakhalin, descendants of settlers, ”kiki-gaki”, narrativeミチコの人生―インタビューのナラティヴ
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳

要約

これらの論文は、2025 年に出版される予定である『記憶を手渡す―ふたりの母から娘たちへ』というタイトルの「聞き書き」（日本語のオーラル・ヒストリーのひとつのスタイル）作品を作るための準備の一部である。この作品では、フィリピンのミンダナオ島と日本の北海道（どちらも国民国家における「国内植民地」であった）で、それぞれ貧しい移民の子孫として育ったのちに、都市で大学教育を受けたふたりの女性の語りを織り合わせていく。このうち、日本人女性の名前はミチコという（本人の希望により、日本語版では名字を伏せている）。彼女の曽祖父母は貧しい農民で、1920 年代に日本本土から北海道に移住してきた。彼女がサハリンで生まれた 1944 年、父親は炭鉱労働者であった。筆者は2023 年 12 月から 2024 年 6 月にかけて、彼女の自宅で 50 分のインタビューを 7 回行う予定である。これらの論文はインタビューの編集版であり、付録としてインタビュー全文の英訳を添えてある。プライバシー保護のため、これらに登場する人物や諸機関の名前は伏せられている。

キーワード：日本、北海道、サハリン、炭鉱、開拓移民の子孫、聞き書き、ナラティヴ

ミチコの人生―1 回目のインタビューのナラティヴ1
東京大学東洋文化研究所
青山和佳
*****
2023 年 12 月 13 日（水）12:30-13:20 ミチコとのインタビュー
聞き手：青山和佳、場所：日本、藤沢市、ミチコの自宅の居間
使用言語：日本語、編集：青山和佳*****
ワカ： お願いします。最初に、これからする録音は学術的な目的だけに使います。出版することもあります。出版するときは原稿を見てもらって、これは消してほしいという部分は消します。プライバシーは保護します。実名で出てきた人たちについては、名前を変えたり、イニシャルにしたりして、工夫して使います。
どこで生まれましたか。樺太、ロシア？ 覚えてることはあります？

ミチコ： 覚えてることは何にもないわ、親から聞いた話だけで。樺太で生まれて、兄がいて、兄は北海道で生まれて、樺太に来て私が生まれて、妹が生まれて。どうして樺太に行ったかっていうと、父が体が小さくて兵役に取られなくて農家の手伝いをしていて、そういうときに何かいい仕事がないかなっていうことで考えていたら、樺太に行ってた父の兄が、おいで、炭鉱で働く所があるよっていうことで、一家で両親と兄が樺太に渡ったのね。
樺太で父が炭鉱をしてて、ロシアの人ととてもよくしてもらって、嫌なことは一つもなくて、終戦後、引き上げるときは涙の別れだったみたい。帰るとき、子どもが欲しいって子どものない人に言われて、私は選ばれなくて妹は色白でかわいかったから言われたんだけれど、両親は離さなかったっていうことを聞いています。引き上げ船の中で子どもがハイハイして落ちたりとか、そういうことがいっぱいあったみたい。
北海道に帰ってきて、炭鉱に父が勤めたの。四軒長屋の炭鉱住宅に住んで、四軒長屋の 2階建てに住んで、そこで父が炭鉱夫として三番方、朝出るのとお昼出るのと夜出るので交代で出るので、みんな朝、帰ってきた人の家の前で遊ばない、寝てもらわないといけないから。

1プライバシー保護のため、人物等の名前は仮名あるいは伏せてある。ハイライト部分は、まだ原稿が確定していないことを示す。語り手であり、筆者の母であるミチコ、本研究を始めるにあたり助言をくださった Ateneo de Davao University の Nelly Limbadan 博士、Christian
Pasion 先生、白金高輪カウンセリングルームの東畑開人博士、昭和大学医学部の中村暖医師、
東京大学産業衛生室の黒田玲子医師に深く感謝する。

1

それぞれ子どもたちが分かっているから。
お手洗いは外なので、とても怖かった。電気も何もなくて、冬は凍っているから、ぽっとんぽっとんのトイレだったから、滑って落ちそうになったこと何回もあります。でも 3 人兄
弟で兄と私と妹と 3 人で、いつもお手洗いは行きました。
炭鉱住宅の土地が広いので、その裏で鶏を飼ったりとか畑を作ってたりして、結構、自給
自足みたいな感じだったね。あとは電気、水道は全部ただだったような気がする。ものすご
い景気が良かったみたいで。あとは山のほうに畑をみんな勝手というか、いいのかな、作って、そこで耕していたり。

ワカ： 炭鉱の場所は？

ミチコ： 炭鉱の場所は北海道空知郡芦別、三井炭鉱でした。馬そりが普通の交通機関で、馬。ぼっとんってうんちを落とすのね、大きなぼたもちみたいな。冬は雪で分からないけど、それが春先、溶けたときに、わらみたいなのががーっと道路にあって、わーって感じで普通の風景だったんだけれども。それはよく覚えてる。
炭鉱で父は採炭夫で、ちょっと小高い所に職員住宅っていうのがあって、そこに住んでる
人は事務方で、みんなうらやましいっていうよりも尊敬の眼でみんな見てたから、あれは良かったなと思って。なんで良かったと思っているのかな、憧れの眼でもないな、自分たちと違うって感じで。向こうも差別するわけでも何でもなくて、普通に接触してくれたんだけれども、でもピアノがあったり、ピアノの音色が聞こえたりとか、違う世界だって思った。
炭鉱で小さいときにぐずぐず泣いてたら、雪の中に放られたことを覚えてる、怖かったけ
ど。あと、お風呂に行くのに、300 メートルぐらい大きな炭鉱だから石炭がいっぱいあって、大きなお風呂に行くのね。そこで貧血を起こして、しょっちゅう戸板で運ばれました。

ワカ： 危ない。

ミチコ：： そのお風呂の中に、お風呂屋さんの奥さんが落ちて亡くなったっていうのは、すごいショックだった。お風呂は薬湯があって、なんか分からないけど薬が入ってて気持ち
よかったな。

ワカ： 薬湯、薬が入ってる。

ミチコ： 薬、何だろう、今の。

ワカ： 薬湯って言うんだ。

2

ミチコ： 薬湯って、今の、何だ？

ワカ： 何だろう。

ミチコ： 入浴剤みたいなものかな。そこでぎゅうぎゅう詰めで楽しかった。タオルを持って、帰りにちょっと外気に触れるとかちかちになるのが面白かった。板になっちゃう。しっ
かり覚えてるのは、母が汽車が通ってない線路を渡ってるときに、お風呂に行くときに転んで、すごくびっくりして、駆け寄ったら全然、意識がない感じで本当にびっくりして、そしたらばって、元気だったの。

ワカ： そういうことする人だったの？

ミチコ： もうあんなの、心臓止まったと思った。

ワカ： そんなにいたずらする人だったの、おばあちゃん。

ミチコ： そんなんじゃなかったんだけど、恥ずかしかったのかな。あと炭鉱で鶏飼ってて、私がおねしょをいっぱいするので、朝起きて、お尻の下に手をやって、やっちゃったってのがしょっちゅうで、これは病気だって言うんで、鶏の首を朝はねて、その生血を飲まされたのがもう。でも治らなかった、おねしょは。

ワカ： おねしょを治すのに、生血を飲むっていうのをしたんだ。

ミチコ： 飲まされた。あと、真っ赤なうんちが出たときがあって、そしたら、お花見かな
んかに炭鉱の人たちがみんなで行ったのに、一人だけ置いていかれたってことがある。あんなに広い(＃＃＃＃＠00:10:04)だから。あんま丈夫じゃなかったな。
楽しみは、クリスマスにクリスマスケーキを買うのね。それを親は食べないで 3 人兄弟で分けたんだけれど、親は遠慮したんでしょうね、子どもに。食べたんだけど、兄はぱくぱく
っと食べて何にもなくて、妹と私が窓を開けたらもう腰まで雪がいっぱいで、そこを掘って、ケーキを冷やさなくても寒いからいいのよね。

ワカ： 確かに。

ミチコ： そこに穴を掘って、ケーキをおのおの、外に入れたってことを覚えてて。朝は、
兄は欲しそうな顔しなかったけれども、2 人で兄に分けて食べたってのが楽しかった。

3

ワカ： ちゃんと分けてたんだ。クリスマスケーキってあったんだ。

ミチコ： あった。バターケーキ。バターっていうのかな、油がこてこてっていう。本はこうやって、あ、ガリバーだよね。

ワカ： ガリバー。

ミチコ： 母の弟が本好きで、初めて印象に残った絵本は、ガリバー旅行記でした。

ワカ： おじさんから借りたの、もらった？

ミチコ： 買ってきた。

ワカ： 買ってきたの？

ミチコ： お土産に。

ワカ： お土産に。

ミチコ： 食い入るように見てたわね、みんなで、3 人で。

ワカ： 3 人で。何歳ぐらいだった？

ミチコ： 10 歳であっち行ったから、5、6 歳かな。父が粉じんで肺を侵されて仕事ができなくなって、それで隣の町の商店街に家を建てた。時計屋さんを。時計と宝石と眼鏡のやって、器用だから時計修理は本当に評判が良くて、もうかったみたい。
進駐軍が置いてった時計とか宝石かな。そういうのがどっかから流れてきて、そういうのを買って直してお店で売ってた。とにかく器用だったね。
そこで成功したんだけれども、あんまり売れるから、遠く離れた時計屋さんから密告されて、国税局が入って、もうけぐらいのものはパスしたんだけれども、何もなかったんだけど、どぶろくを作ってて、それが国税法違反とか何とかで踏み込まれた。

ワカ： どぶろくが、踏み込まれたの？

ミチコ： どぶろく、いい匂いするのね。コンクリートで囲った地下室があって、そこでどぶろくって何だろう、お酒の前かな。それが怖くなかったけど、重々しい感じだった。1 回

4

じゃなくて 2 回も。

ワカ： 2 回も踏み込まれた？

ミチコ： 踏み込まれたね。

ワカ： これ以前にまた作ってたってこと？

ミチコ： ばかなんでしょ。それがまたおいしいのよね。

ワカ： 飲んだの？

ミチコ： ううん。近所の人がみんなおいしいって酒盛りしてたから。

ワカ： そうなんだ。近所の人に売ってたってこと？

ミチコ： 売りはしなかった。

ワカ： あげてた？

ミチコ： うん。結構、時計のほうでもうかってて裕福だったから。お金はわんさかいっぱ
いあったみたい。

ワカ： お金はいっぱいあった。

ミチコ： うん。それで兄に時計を継いでほしくて、兄は定時制高校に行って、昼間は父の見習いをしてたけど、全然、向いてないみたいで、それで留萌にでっち奉公に出されたんだけど。

ワカ： 留萌？

ミチコ： 留萌。そこでもあんまり向いてなくて、いつも叱られてて、反論しないし反抗もしないし、かわいそうだったな。母は、『婦人公論』読んでたりとか。

ワカ： 『婦人公論』？

5

ミチコ： あの頃あったから。

ワカ： あったんだ、もう。

ミチコ： あったと思うわ、あれ？

ワカ： あったんじゃない？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： 調べれば分かるか。

ミチコ： 源氏とか、あんなの分かんのかな。

ワカ： 源氏物語？ 読んでたの？ おばあちゃん。

ミチコ： 私は、母が瀬戸内晴美さんの、うにゃうにゃっていうのを読んでて、隠れて読んだら、子ども心がどきんどきんしちゃって、隠れて瀬戸内晴美さんの読んだわ。父はそうい
うこと全く興味なくて、働く働くの人だったから、2 人は本当に合わなくて、仲悪くて。
母は働いて、それでどっか旅行行こうとか、本買おうっていう考えで、父は、そんなのはためて働けばいいって人生だったから、価値観違うんだなと思ったわ。

ワカ： いとこ同士？

ミチコ： そう、いとこ同士。8 人兄弟の父と、9 人兄弟の母。次男と長女の結び付きだったね。だから父は送金してたね、親なんかに。母も実家に送金やってて、そういう意味では裕福だったんでしょうね。
私が勉強が分からなくて、勉強が苦手で、小学校でも先生が何言ってるか分からなくて、中学に行って、1 番、2 番って順番、廊下に貼り出されても、一番ビリに近い、ビリかな。
勉強って怖くて分からなくて、下がった。
小樽でにしんがものすごい豊漁なときで、お弁当は、にしんがごろんと。

ワカ： 小樽？

ミチコ： にしん。

6ワカ： にしん？

ミチコ： うん。弁当が、にしんごろんで、ちょっとやだったな、どうしてやだったんだろう。

ワカ： お弁当が、にしんだった。

ミチコ： ご飯とにしん。

ワカ： にしんの煮た？

ミチコ： うん。

ワカ： 煮たにしん。

ミチコ： 煮たのかな、焼いたのかな。友達はほとんどいない。でも 1 人だけ、みっちゃんって、優しい子がいて、みきちゃん。会いたいなと思ったけど、いじめに遭ったわけじゃな
いから。

ワカ： それ、小学校？ ごめん、中学校？

ミチコ： そうか、小学校か。

ワカ： 中学校？ どっち？

ミチコ： 中学校だ。小学校卒業するとき、小学校の高学年になったときに、痔の手術をして、14 歳？

ワカ： 14 歳。

ミチコ： 卒業って 13 歳？ 12 歳か。

ワカ： 小学校は特に理由がなければ 12 歳。

ミチコ： 卒業するときに痔が出血がひどくて、立っていられないぐらい痛くて、痔の手術をして痛くて、ドーナツ枕をお尻に当てて痛くて「痛い」って言ったら、母が「10 円やるか7

ら静かに寝せてくれ」って付き添いの母が私のベッドの下で言ってた。でも 10 円より痛いほうが勝ったわね。
昔だから 1 カ月以上たって、なかなか回復しなくて入学式もできなかったから、学校に行ったら英語があって、英語なんて全く分かんないから、A も B も分からないから、そこから余計、勉強苦手って意識が芽生えてつらかった。
中学を出て、私は髪結いさん、今の美容師さん。住み込みで髪結いになりたかったんだけ
ど、母が絶対に高校入ってほしいって。当時、半分ぐらいしか行ってないのにね、高校に。
訳分かんなくて、受けたんだけど当然、落ちて、その町で落ちたのは 2 人で、1 人は体調が悪くて、だから実力で落ちたんじゃないんで、私は実力で落ちた。
それで母がすごく悲しんで、炭鉱のお店の商店街に行って、そこのボスみたいな女性がいて、薬局で。薬局のボスおかみが、母に、よかったな、入る所があって、って。あの学校は誰でも入れてくれる学校なんだよ。

ワカ： 落ちたけど、別の所に行けたってこと？

ミチコ： 札幌の学校、受けて、新設高校だったんだ。新設高校受けて、それで。

ワカ： そこに入ったら落ちた？ 二つ受けたってこと？

ミチコ： 公立は落ちたから。

ワカ： 公立は落ちたから私立に行った。

ミチコ： 芦別の公立落ちて、たった 1 人、実力で落ちて、札幌の新設高校の受けて受かって、母がほっとしてそのボスの所にごあいさつに行ったら、そのボスが、その高校は程度が低くて学力のない人ばっかり集まってて、どうしようもない学校なんだよって。それはそこの養子さんが札幌出身で、それをボスに言って、母はしょんぼりして帰ってきた。それは本当に勉強が苦手でごめんなさいって感じ。いまだにそれはすごい悲しい。

ワカ： そうなんだ。

ミチコ： 私が勉強嫌いって、全然、分からないの、勉強なんか。髪結いさんの住み込みしたかったのに。でも高校に 3 年間、寮生活。

ワカ： 寮生活？

8ミチコ： そう。高校の隣にすぐ寮があって、そこで寮生活してたんだけれど、他の高校の男子校の人がアルバイトで新聞配達に来てて、その人と仲良くっていうか、言葉交わすようになって、それを札幌にいたおばに話したら、おばが母に話して、母は烈火のごとく怒って送金止めちゃった。

ワカ： そんなことあったの？ 送金止められたの？

ミチコ： 謝って。初恋でも何でも、何だったのか、あれは。終わっちゃって、送金止められたんだ。

ワカ： 付き合ってると思われた？

ミチコ： うん。それで、はかなく終わった。

ワカ： 初恋だった？ 分かんない？

ミチコ： やっぱり高校でも勉強は分かんなくて、なんで分かんないのか、でも分かんなくて、そしたら卒業、2 年生、高校 2 ぐらいのときに、母が大学行けって言うから、もう飛び上がった、とんでもない。もう中学で、小学校だってよく分かったのに、学校なんて行かな
くて、よかったのに。
母が炭鉱の商店街に建てた家。結構、どれくらいあったのかな、分かんない。部屋数で言ったら、昔の家だから結婚式できるぐらい大きかった家なんだけど、そこに行商の人が月に何日か泊まっていたんね。その行商の人が、大学行くんだったらいい話があるよっていうことで、お金を当時 100 万円、私はもう聞き耳立てて、しっかり聞いてた。自分がどうなるか、
自分の意のままになること一つもないから。そしたら大学行かされそうで、100 万円で請け負うって大学の先生が言って、うそだろうと思ったけど、本当に合格しちゃったんだ。

ワカ： そうなんだ。

ミチコ： それでまたつらい生活が始まる。会計の紙、見せられたって、何が何単位で、何が何って、さっぱり分かんない。

ワカ： 上京したんだよね。

ミチコ： うん。上京をしたときに付き添ってくれたのが炭鉱にいた上司で、早稲田大学を出て事務方をしててかなり上の人だった。だけど炭鉱にいたときに、父にお金を借りに来て9た。もちろん返してくれたみたいなんだけど、それで親しくなってて、借りに行って、そうだ、父はお人よしだから、人に貸しては返してもらえないのしょっちゅうだったわ。その上司は、その恩を忘れないということで、私が大学に上京したときに、自分の家の離れに下宿させてくれた。

ワカ： すごいね、そうなんだ。

ミチコ： でも大学に入ったら、私と同じような状況の人が少しいて、親戚に教授がいたとかそういう関係の人で、別に裏金払わないで入学してた人がいて、あと普通に入ってきた人
はとてつもなく頭良くて研究して、毎日通ってた。
勉強って本当は楽しいんでしょうけど、勉強って楽しくなかった。勉強って楽しくないって、勉強しなかったら分かんなかった。

ワカ： 専門、選んだの？

ミチコ： 国文学科に入ったんだ。それをあっせんした先生が国文学科の教授だったから。

ワカ： 選んだんじゃなくて、あっせんした人が国文科だったからなの？ そうなんだ。

ミチコ： 真相は分からないけど、私が聞き耳立てたのはそれだった。そうやって入った人が何人かいて、本当に入った人は本当に優秀だったな。やっぱりそういうのは尊敬しちゃったよね。大学に入って、一番の収穫は夫と出会ったこと。あと、なし。

ワカ： なし？ 友達とかいたんじゃないの？

ミチコ： 上京して間もなく、女性が 3 人か 4 人で板橋のおうちに遊びに来たときに、それぞれがグランドピアノの前で弾くのを、えって感じで、見たことない。ピアノなんて見たことあるけども、グランドなんて見たことない。それで池にコイがいたり滝があったり、すげ
えな、医者か。

ワカ： 医者。

ミチコ： 4 人で行って 3 人は。

ワカ： お医者さんの娘さんだったんだ。

10

ミチコ： 耳鼻科だとか、医者ってそうなんだと思って、当時そうだったんだ。だって女中
さんいたんですもん。ねえや、なんて呼んでるなんてもうびっくりしちゃってって。ねえや、なんて、え？ お嬢さま、なんて、え？ 泊まったときもふかふかのベッドで、ふかふかの布団。これ、なんでこんなに軽いのって言ったら、これ羽毛なの。今、普通だけど、あの頃、
羽毛って何だって感じで。

ワカ： 聞いたものの。

ミチコ： 鳥の羽。そのピアノも、それぞれ 4 人が、私は、エリーゼのためを弾くわとか、誰々が何々弾くわって、それぞれ言うのね。みんな、あなたは？って誰も聞かないからすごいみんな優しい。

ワカ： 確かに。

ミチコ： 環境の違いって、すごいびっくりして。あと旧友のクラスメートが、いろいろ聞きもしないけど、私は炭鉱の生まれで採炭夫の娘だってことで、みんなぎょっとして、怖い
人ばっかりの集まりでしょって言われて。

ワカ： イメージがあるんだ。

ミチコ： 私、炭鉱しか知らないから、そこが怖いって分かんない。居心地がいい所だったから。

ワカ： 居心地いい所だった。

ミチコ： 私にしては。学校以外は。隣の子はおんぶして、いろいろお使いしたりとか、そういうことは楽しかったから。勉強以外は全部、楽しかった。

ワカ： そうだったんだ。

ミチコ： 馬ふんの道で転んでもしょうがねえやって感じで。でも、そうだったんだ。みん
なぎょっとして、小説のイメージなんですよね、きっと。だから少しは役に立ってあげたい
かな、偏見っていうことに。
ああいうクラスメートのおうちって、それぞれが、ねえやだの、ばえやだの、ん？ もう
本当に東京ってすごいびっくりしちゃった。お嬢さまとかね。

11ワカ： みんな東京出身だった？

ミチコ： うん。秋田の人もいたけど、それはお互い下宿、行ったり来たり。でも秋田の友達は推薦、根っからお勉強の人なんだよ。だから、これは本物だなってだんだん気が付いてきたの。大学生、こういう人がいなきゃもったいない。あとテルオカマサトシ、マサヨシ、の人が、早稲田大学の人だと思う。私は大学でさ、女子学生亡国論っていうのがあって、納得。

ワカ： その納得っていうのは？

ミチコ： 本当に行きたくて行けなかった人がいっぱいいるのに、少し自分に疑問を背負いたこともあったね。これで環境変わるんだもんね。普通にいたら、姉やとかグランドとかは知らないもんね。

ワカ： 確かに。

ミチコ： そういう環境を与えないと困るってことは、母は恨んでたけど、感謝してるけど、でも行きたい人は行けない。世間の矛盾を感じたな。

ワカ： そのとき？

ミチコ： うん、変だなと思った。だからって自分がこの生活を捨てるかって言ったら、そんな気持ち全然なくて。

ワカ： 楽しい大学生活だったんだ。

ミチコ： 何だこれは、自分に対して疑問は持ったね。それでアパート、赤羽根が遠過ぎて痴漢にも遭うし。

ワカ： 赤羽根が下宿させてもらってた場所？

ミチコ： そう、父親の上司。あまりにも遠過ぎて。

ワカ： どこまで通ってたんだっけ。

ミチコ： 赤羽根から、だって大学名、分かっちゃうでしょ。

12ワカ： 大学名は伏せときます。

ミチコ： そうなるとあれしかないもん。

ワカ： 取りあえず場所は重要だから。

ミチコ： 赤羽根は北区から世田谷まで。乗り換えが何個あったのかしら。

ワカ： 遠いね。

ミチコ： 遠い。それでつらくて、引っ越すことになった。

ワカ： 何年生？

ミチコ： 2 年生、3 年生になるときかな。違うな、これ曖昧だわね。すぐかもしれない、
1 年たたないうちだったと思う。

ワカ： 遠いということで。

ミチコ： 遠くて、体がもうしょっちゅう貧血起こしてたから。世田谷のアパートに住んだの、1 人暮らし。そのアパートにおしゃれな女性がいて、その部屋にしょっちゅう男の人が来てて、私の弟やって感じで、こんにちはって感じで、大学のときとか会ったときに、みん
なが私のアパートの 3 畳の部屋に集まって勉強するんだけど、裏口入学ばっかりの仲間だから、みんな勉強の仕方も分かんなくて、そしたらそこにその弟がいて勉強教えてくれた。
その姉にお礼を言ったら、「だって私の弟は入学式のときに新入生代表したのよ」って言われて、それで、おーって感じで、勉強できる人はもうすごい尊敬してたから、別の人だから。
それで彼は勉強してないと落ち着かない。私は、勉強って聞いただけで頭おかしくなる。
一生懸命教えてくれて、最後は、卒業のときは、現代文は単位取れないし、英語の 2 も取れなかったし、なんだかんだ三つぐらい取れなくて、留年っていう話じゃなくてレポート提出になったの。

ワカ： 留年しなくてよかった？

ミチコ： 留年の話は大学から出てこなかった、レポート提出。

13ワカ： レポート提出で。

ミチコ： その頃ゆるいから。レポートって何て書いていいんだ、漢文なんか分からないし、
字、ひっくり返して読むのとかって、(＃＃＃＃＠00:37:18)の知恵だから。それで、「私の弟は新入生代表よ」に頼んだら、いいよってことで、あっという間に書いて提出したら、もういいよで戻ってきて。

ワカ： 卒業できた？

ミチコ： そう。その「私の弟」は、これは駄目だ、危ない、ほっとくとっていうことで、すぐ。まだ 20 歳なのに結婚しようって決めたのね。

ワカ： 20 歳だったってこと？ まだ卒業してないのに？

ミチコ： だって学生のときに教えてもらったの。

ワカ： その留年は卒業じゃなくて、そうか。

ミチコ： 出会ったときからそう思ってたんだって、これはまずいって。よりにもよってな
んで私に目を付けたかっていうと、一番、危険分子だったからじゃない？ ふらふらしてたから。地方から来てるし、親もいるわけじゃない、監視の目がないでしょ。

ワカ： 同じ大学の二つ上だったの？

ミチコ： 学部が違って。

ワカ： 何学部だった？

ミチコ： 農獣医学部。

ワカ： お父さん？ 農獣医学部出身。

ミチコ： 同じ世田谷で。

ワカ： 文学部？

14

ミチコ： 私が国文学科。

ワカ： 国文学科だけど。

ミチコ： 文理学部。

ワカ： 文理学部の国文学科。

ミチコ： なんと卒業できるもんなんだわ。

ワカ： レポートで卒業したの？

ミチコ： あとの三つは。どうして厳しくしなかったのって言ったら、時間かかるし、分か
んないけどやっちゃったって。

ワカ： やっちゃったわけでしょ。

ミチコ： 二つ違って、彼は新潟の中学、高校と教員になって。妹と暮らしたのいつ頃だったのかな。

ワカ： 暮らしてたよね、お母さん。話が出るもんね。

ミチコ： 話が前後するわね。

ワカ： いいの、それは全然。

ミチコ： 妹が上京してきて、代田橋に引っ越したのよね。

ワカ： どこ？

ミチコ： 代田橋。年数を数えれば分かるか。

ワカ： それは大体、後で。

ミチコ： 世田谷のアパートに行ったときは、まだ 1 年生だったと思う。

15

ワカ： 赤羽からの引っ越しは 1 年生のときね。

ミチコ： 赤羽のときからほんの数カ月だったんでしょうね。

ワカ： アッコちゃん来て、代田橋に。

ミチコ： 妹も、どうも母のその先生に頼んで、また 100 万円払って、らしいんだけど、だけど妹は薬学を 3 校受けたけど、全部、合格してる。だから実力はあったのね。どこがいい
かなって私に言うから、私は、単科大学よりも総合大学のほうが巡り合いがあるよって。

ワカ： そんなこと言ったの。巡り合いがあるよって言ったの？

ミチコ： なんであんなこと言ったんだか、大学のこと分かりもしないくせに。単科よりは総合大学がいいっていうのはなんの発想だったのか、いまだに分かんない。妹は私と同じ大学の薬学部に入って、妹は勉強苦手な私にすごく軽蔑して、あんまり仲いい、小さい頃仲良
かったけど、大学に入ってから軽蔑してたみたい。
妹は送金のお金が余ったら必ず親に返してた。私は国文学、何々買うよ、英語のとか言って何も買わないんだけど、すごいお金いっぱい親に送ってもらった、うそ言って。

ワカ： うそまで言って送ってもらったの？

ミチコ： 妹と私は全然、違って。

ワカ： 違うね。

ミチコ： 妹はもう本当に嫌だったみたい、この訳の分からない姉が。でも一緒に暮らしてたの。

ワカ： 部屋、仕切ってたの？

ミチコ： あまり覚えてないのよね。

ワカ： 一間に 2 人で住んでたの？

ミチコ： 住んでた。あっちは実験とか何とかいっぱいあったから、忙しかったから。昭和16

39 年にオリンピックがあって、代田橋、甲州街道が近いから、見に行っても私、背が 150 ぐ
らいだから見えなくて、人の足と足の間をこうやってのぞいてたら、アベベの足がとんって行っちゃった。

ワカ： すごかったね。

ミチコ： それは今でも、オリンピックすごいと思った。あの頃からどんどん町が変わってって、公害とかすごかったもんね。

ワカ： 公害がすごい時期だった。

ミチコ： そんなんだったな。大学はやっぱり収穫は夫だ。だから勉強、何も覚えてない。

ワカ： 何も覚えてないの？

ミチコ： だってコンクリート流されたようになるんだもん、講堂に入ると。

ワカ： コンクリートに流されたようになる？

ミチコ： 脳の中にコンクリートミキサー車が、がーっと回って、そこで頭の中がコンクリート固まっちゃう、そんな感じだった。

ワカ： そんな感じだったの。

ミチコ： コンクリートミキサー車が来て、私にコンクリートを詰めると、そうすると固まっちゃう。

ワカ： 固まっちゃう。

ミチコ： だから何にも入らない。

ワカ： そんな感じなんだ。

ミチコ： そこに、夫の新入生代表したのよっていう姉が一緒に来て、授業を受けてて。今でもそうなのかな、ふいに来ても入れちゃうんだよね。

17ワカ： もぐりってこと？

ミチコ： 今でもそう？

ワカ： 今でもいるんじゃない。

ミチコ： 歯ぎしりしてたの。もったいない。授業も聞かないで。

ワカ： 確かに。

ミチコ： ちっちゃい声で。

ワカ： 彼女からすればね。

ミチコ： だから、いざ結婚となったら、親にそれを吹き込んでるから、とんでもないってことで反対されちゃった。

ワカ： それを吹き込まれてたのか。

ミチコ： だって本当のことだから。それで彼は先に卒業して、結婚しようっていう話は最初からあったんだけど。でも私、勉強嫌いだし、学校の先生にいい思いないし。だから、先生嫌いって言ったら、辞めちゃった。

ワカ： それで辞めたの？

ミチコ： だから夫の両親は烈火のごとく怒って、それで辞めたの。

ワカ： それで辞めたの？

ミチコ： 本当にこの一言で。こんなの参考にならないんじゃない？

ワカ： 大丈夫、面白い。

ミチコ： 程度低いもん。

ワカ： 程度低いって思う？

18

ミチコ： 思う、もったいないと思う。お金があるだけで、こんないい思いでしょ、結局はね。

ワカ： でも、そういう時代だったんだよね、ある意味。

ミチコ： こんなんだったもんね、極端だったのね。それで卒業して、新潟駅から北海道に向かったときに、なんかすごい数の、50 人も 60 人、もっといたかな、慕われてたんだね。
彼に手を振ってお別れしてたわね。

ワカ： お父さん？

ミチコ： どうしてあたしがあそこにいたのか分かんないけど。

ワカ： 新潟駅に見送りの人がいっぱい来たってこと？

ミチコ： 最寄りの駅だから新潟駅なんでしょうね。

ワカ： だから、北海道に行くとき。札幌行くとき。

ミチコ： ええと、北海道と本州、行き来するのに連絡船だったんだよね。それで帰るときに、冬休みに戻るときに、親が、お世話になった上司、自分たちの両親の所に、しゃけを必ず持たされて、これをまた 2 キロとか 3 キロとか、ばかでかい、重たいのに。

ワカ： しゃけを。

ミチコ： 1 本、箱に入れたの。

ワカ： 荒巻ってこと？

ミチコ： うん。その箱を取って、連絡船の中で長いから枕にして、箱を外して。また降りるときに箱に入れて、持って行ってたら、ある日、あげた人の奥さんから、身が崩れて大変だったんだけどって言われたの。ありゃ。

ワカ： 箱から出して枕にしてたの？

19

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： 生臭くないの？

ミチコ： ビニールに入ってるし、それでもそのしゃけが重たくて嫌って思ったの。相手のこと全然、考えないで。

ワカ： 箱のままじゃ枕になんないから、箱から出して枕にして？。

ミチコ： そう。

ワカ： そうなんだ、それで連絡船の中で枕にして寝てたの？

ミチコ： ごろごろって。

ワカ： そしたら身が崩れてると言われたの。

ミチコ： お母さんに言えないしっていうか、言わないで。

ワカ： 言えないよね。

ミチコ： ごめんね、何したのかしらって、枕にしたって言えなかった。結構うそいっぱい
ついてるな。そういうことあったね。

ワカ： ちょうど 50 分くらい。あと確認したいんだけど、何年生まれですか。

ミチコ： 1944 年。

ワカ： 1944 年。

ミチコ： 昭和 19 年。

ワカ： 19 年。生まれた年だけ確認したかった。大学まで別に留年とかしてない？

ミチコ： ない。

20ワカ： すごく面白いけど、ちょうどこれで 50 分くらいなんで。きょう生まれたところから大学まで一気に行ってる。

ミチコ： つらいから幼少期のことあんまり覚えてない。

ワカ： そうかもね。楽しかったって話になってた。

ミチコ： 楽しくなかったね、子どものときは。楽しかったのかな。

ワカ： その辺をちょっと次回、炭鉱の幼少期、できたら。きょうはここで。ありがとうご
ざいます。

(了)

21

Appendix
Michiko's Life - 1st interview narrative2
Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, The University of Tokyo
Waka Aoyama*****
Wednesday, December 13, 2023, 12:30-13:20, Interview with MichikoInterviewer: Waka Aoyama, Location: Living room of Michiko's house, Fujisawa, Japan
Language: Japanese, Editing: Waka Aoyama*****
Waka: Please. First, the recordings we are about to make will be used for academic purposes only. We
may also publish them. When we publish, we will ask to see the manuscript and erase any parts thatyou want erased. We will protect your privacy. For people who have given their real names, we willchange their names or use their initials.
Where were you born? Sakhalin, Russia? Is there anything you remember?
Michiko: I don't remember anything, just what my parents told me. I was born in Karafuto, I had anolder brother, he was born in Hokkaido, he came to Karafuto and I was born there, and my sister wasborn there. The reason why I went to Sakhalin is because my father was too small to be drafted into
the army, so he was helping out on the farm, and at that time I was looking for a good job, and myfather's brother who had gone to Sakhalin said, "Come here, there are places to work in the mines," so
my parents and brother went to Sakhalin with my family.
My father was a coal miner in Sakhalin, and he was very good to me and the Russian people, not asingle bad thing happened to me, and when the war ended and we pulled out, it was like a tearfulgoodbye. When it was time to go home, I heard that people without children said they wanted to have
2Names of persons and others are pseudonyms or have been withheld to protect privacy.

Highlighted portions indicate that the manuscript has not yet been finalized. The author
would like to thank Michiko, the narrator and mother of the author; Dr. Nelly Limbadan
and Dr. Christian Pasion of Ateneo de Davao University for their advice in starting thisstudy; Dr. Kaito Towhata of the Shirokane-Takanawa Counseling Room; Dr. Dan
Nakamura of Showa University School of Medicine and Dr. Reiko Kuroda of the Universityof Tokyo's Office of Occupational Health.

22children, and I wasn't chosen and my sister was chosen because she was fair-skinned and pretty, but
my parents wouldn't let her go. It seems that there were a lot of things that happened, like children
crawling and falling in the salvage boat.
We came back to Hokkaido, and my father worked in the coal mine. We lived in a two-story building
in a four-story tenement house, and my father worked as a coal miner there in the third shift, leavingin the morning, noon, and night, so everyone would not play in front of the house of those who camehome in the morning, because they had to sleep. Because each of the children know.
The bathroom was outside and it was very scary. There was no electricity or anything, and in thewinter it was freezing, so I almost slipped and fell many times. But there were three of us, my brother,me, and my sister, and we always went to the bathroom.
The land for the coal mine housing was large, so we kept chickens and farmed in the back, and it
was pretty much like being self-sufficient. I think electricity and water were all free. The economy
was booming. Everyone was cultivating their own fields in the mountains.
Waka: Where is the mine located?
Michiko: The coal mine was located in Ashibetsu, Sorachi-gun, Hokkaido, Japan, and was a Mitsuicoal mine. Horse-drawn sleighs were the normal mode of transportation, horses. Botton, they would
drop poo, like a big botamochi. In winter, you couldn't see it because of the snow, but in early spring,when the snow melted, there was a lot of straw on the road, and it was a normal scene. I rememberthat well.
My father was a coal miner, and there was a staff residence on a small hill, and the people who lived
there were office workers, and everyone looked at them with respect rather than envy. I don't know
why I thought it was good. It wasn't like they were looking at us with admiration, like they weredifferent from us. They didn't discriminate against us or anything, they just made normal contact withus, but there was a piano, and I could hear the sound of the piano, and I thought it was a different
world.
I remember when I was little in the coal mine, and I was crying so much I gagged, and they threw
me out in the snow, I was scared. Also, to go to the bath, it was a big coal mine, about 300 meters long,so there was a lot of coal, and you had to go to a big bath. I got anemia there and was often carriedaway with a door board.
Waka: It’s dangerous!
Michiko: It was a great shock to hear that the wife of the bathhouse owner fell into that bath and died.
There was a medicinal bath, I don't know what it was, but it felt good to have medicine in it.

23Waka: Medicated baths, with medicine.
Michiko: Medicine, what is it now?
Waka: It's called a kusuriyu.
Michiko: Kusuriyu, now, what is that?
Waka: What is it?
Michiko: I guess it's like bath salts. It was fun to be crammed in there. It was fun to take a towel andhave it crackle in the open air on the way home. It would turn into a board. I remember my motherwas crossing the track where there was no train, and when she went to take a bath, she fell down、andstartled me as if she were playing peek-a-boo.
Waka: Was she the kind of person who would do that?
Michiko: I thought my heart had already stopped beating like that.
Waka: She was such a naughty one, grandma.
Michiko: It wasn't like that, but I guess she was embarrassed. Also, we kept chickens in the mines, andI wet the bed so much that I often woke up in the morning and put my hand under my buttocks andsaid I had wet the bed. But it didn't go away, the bedwetting.
Waka: To cure bed-wetting, they used to drink fresh blood.
Michiko: They made me drink. Also, there was a time when I had bright red poop, and then all theminers went together to see cherry blossoms or something, but they left me alone behind. It was sucha big place (＃＃＃＃@00:10:04). I was not a very strong child.
For fun, you buy a Christmas cake for Christmas. My parents didn't eat it, but we shared it among
my three siblings, but I guess they were reserved for their children. We ate it, but my brother ate itwith a crunch and nothing else. My sister and I opened the window and there was already waist-deepin snow, so we dug in there and didn't have to cool the cake because it was so cold.

24

Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: I remember digging a hole and putting a cake outside for each of us. In the morning, mybrother didn't seem to want them, but we enjoyed sharing them with him.
Waka: They were properly divided. I didn't know there was such a thing as Christmas cake.
Michiko: There was. Butter cake. I don't know if it's called butter, but the oil is sticky. The book is likethis... Oh, it's Gulliver, right?
Waka: Gulliver.
Michiko: My mother's brother was a book lover, and the first picture book that made an impression onme was Gulliver's Travels.
Waka: I borrowed it from my uncle, did you get it?
Michiko: He bought it.
Waka: Did he buy it?
Michiko: Souvenirs.
Waka: Souvenirs.
Michiko: We read it intently, all of us, the three of us.
Waka: The three of us. How old were you?
Michiko: I went over there when I was 10, so I must have been 5 or 6. My father's lungs were affectedby dust and he couldn't work, so we built a house in a shopping district in the next town. He opened awatch shop. He was good with watches, jewelry, and glasses, and his watch repair business was very
popular and profitable.
Watches and jewelry left behind by the Occupation Forces. He would buy them, fix them, and sellthem in the store. Anyway, he was very skillful.
We were successful there, but because we sold so well, we were tipped off by a distant watchmaker,

25and the IRS came in. We passed on the profits, but nothing happened, but we were making doburoku,
which violated the National Tax Law or something.
Waka: Because of doburoku, did you get raided?
Michiko: Doburoku, it smells so good. There was a basement surrounded by concrete, and I wondered
what doburoku was there, before it becomes the alcohol? They didn't scare me, but it was a kind ofheavy situation, not once, but twice.
WAKA: Stepped in twice?
Michiko: They stepped in.
Waka: You mean he was making it again before this happened?
Michiko: He must be an idiot. That's what makes it so delicious.
Waka: Did you drink?
Michiko: No. All the neighbors said it was delicious and had a lot of fun drinking it.
Waka: I see. You mean you sold it to your neighbor?
Michiko: We did not sell.
Waka: Did you give it to them?
Michiko: Yes. He had a lot of money.
Waka: He had lots of money.
Michiko: Yes. He wanted my brother to take over the watch business, so he went to a regular highschool and became my father's apprentice during the day, but he wasn't suited for the job at all, so he
was sent to Rumoi to do an apprenticeship.
Waka: Rumoi?

26Michiko: Rumoi. Even there, He wasn't very good at it. He was always scolded, but he didn't argue orrebel, and I felt sorry for him. My mother used to read "Fujin Koron" (Women's Public Opinion).
Waka: "Fujin Koron"?
Michiko: It was there at that time.
Waka: There it was, already.
Michiko: I think there was, that?
Waka: There was, wasn't there?
Michiko: Yes.
WAKA: Can you look it up?
Michiko: I wonder if she can understand GENJI or something like that.
Waka: The Tale of Genji? She was reading it? Grandma.
Michiko: My mother was reading a book called “unya unya” by Harumi Setouchi, and I read it behindher back. My father was not interested in that kind of thing at all. He was a workaholic, so the two ofthem really didn't get along well.
My mother thought that we should work and use the money to go on vacations or buy books, while
my father thought that we should save it and work for it. They had different values from each oher.
Waka: Cousins?
Michiko: Yes, they were cousins, my father with eight siblings and my mother with nine siblings. They
were the second son and the eldest daughter. So my father sent money home to his parents. My motheralso sent money home to her parents, so I guess they were well-off in that sense.
I didn't know how to study, I was not good at studying, even in elementary school I didn't understandwhat the teachers were saying, and when I went to junior high school, I was number one, number two,
and when they put them up in the hallway, I was the closest to the bottom, the bottom I guess. I was

27

afraid of studying and didn't know what to do, so I dropped down.
The lunch box was filled with herring, as Otaru had a very good catch of herring.
Waka: Otaru?
Michiko: Nishin.
Waka: Nishin?
Michiko: Yes. The bento was a bit bad because of such a big piece of Nishin [“goron” onomatope], I
wonder why.
Waka: Your lunch was a herring.
Michiko: Rice and nishin.
Waka: Boiled herring?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Boiled nishin.
Michiko: I wonder if it was boiled or grilled. I have few friends. But there was one girl, Micchan, who
was very kind to me, Miki. I missed her, but I didn't get bullied by her.
Waka: Is that elementary school? I'm sorry, middle school?
Michiko: Oh, right, elementary school.
Waka: Junior high school? Which one?
Michiko: Junior high school. When I graduated from elementary school, when I was in the upper
grades of elementary school, I had hemorrhoid surgery, and I was 14?
Waka: 14 years old.

28

Michiko: Graduation is at 13? Or 12 years old.
Waka: Elementary school is 12 years old if there is no particular reason.
Michiko: When I was graduating, my hemorrhoids were bleeding so badly that I couldn't stand up, it
hurt so much that I had to have hemorrhoid surgery, and when I put a donut pillow on my butt and said"ouch" because it hurt, my mother said under my bed, "I'll give you 10 yen and let you sleep quietly,"
my mother who was accompanying me said. But the pain won out over the dime.
It was a long time ago, so it took me more than a month to recover, and I couldn't even make theentrance ceremony.
After leaving junior high school, I wanted to be a “kamiyui-san”, now it is called a hairdresser. I
wanted to be a live-in hairdresser, but my mother wanted me to go to high school. I was only halfway
through high school at the time. I didn't know why, so I applied, but of course I failed.
So my mother was very sad, and we went to the shopping district of the coal mine store, and there
was a woman who was like the boss there, at the pharmacy. The boss lady at the pharmacy told mymother, "You're lucky, you have a place to get in. That school would let anyone in.
Waka: You mean you failed, but you could have gone somewhere else?
Michiko: I applied to a school in Sapporo, and it was a newly established high school. I took a newhigh school, and then...
Waka: If you got in there, did you fail? You mean you took two?
Michiko: Because I failed the public school.
Waka: You went to a private school because you failed the public school.
Michiko: After failing the public school in Ashibetsu, only one person failed on merit, so I took a test
at a newly established high school in Sapporo and was accepted. My mother was relieved and went tovisit the boss, who told her that the high school was full of people with low academic ability and that
it was a helpless school. That was because her adopted son there was from Sapporo, and he told thatto the boss, and my mother came back home shrugging. It was like, "I'm really sorry I'm not good atstudying. I still feel really sad about that.
Waka: I see.

29

Michiko: I don't like studying, I don't know anything about studying. I wanted to be a live-in
hairdresser. But I lived in a dormitory for three years in high school.
Waka: Dormitory life?
Michiko: Yes. There was a dormitory right next to the high school, and I was living there, and a boy
from another high school came to deliver newspapers part-time.
Waka: Did that happen? Did they stop you from sending money?
Michiko: I apologized. First love or not, whatever it was, it was. It's over, and they stopped sending
money.
Waka: Did they think you were in a relationship?
Michiko: Yes. So, it ended with a whimper.
Waka: Was it your first love? You don't know?
Michiko: Even in high school, I didn't know what to study, and I didn't know why I didn't know, but I
didn't know. Then, when I graduated, in my second year of high school, my mother told me to go tocollege, so I jumped up and down. Even when I was in junior high school, or even when I was in inelementary school, I was not able to understand. I didn't have to go to school.
My mother built this house in a coal mine shopping area. I don't know how many rooms it had. In
terms of the number of rooms, it was an old house, so it was big enough to hold a wedding. The peddler
told me that he had a good offer if I would go to college. I listened attentively to what he had to say,because nothing was going to happen to me, nothing was going to happen to me. I thought it was a lie,but I was really accepted.
Waka: I see.
Michiko: Then the hard life begins again. Even when I was shown the accounting paper, I had no idea
what was the unit and what was what.
Waka: You moved to Tokyo.

30

Michiko: Yes. When I moved to Tokyo, the person who accompanied me was the boss of my father at
the coal mine, a very senior person who had graduated from Waseda University and worked in an
office. But when he was in the coal mine, he came to my father to borrow money. Of course, hereturned the money. My father was a good-natured man who could not refuse applications for loans
and often did not pay them back. But his boss never forgot that debt, so when I moved to Tokyo forcollege, he let me stay at his house.
Waka: Wow, that's great.
Michiko: But when I entered the university, there were a few people in the same situation as me, people
who had relatives who were professors or had some other kind of relationship with professors, whoentered without paying any back taxes, and then there were people who came in normally who wereincredibly smart and did research and went there every day.
I guess studying is really fun, but studying wasn't fun. If I hadn't studied, I wouldn't have known
that studying is not fun.
Waka: Did you choose your major?
Michiko: I entered the Department of Japanese Literature. The professor who arranged it was aprofessor of the Department of Japanese Literature.
Waka: Not because you chose it, but because the person who mediated was in the National Humanities
Department? I see.
Michiko: I don't know what the truth is, but that's what I heard. There were a few people who got inthat way, and the ones who really got in were really good. I still respected that kind of thing. The bestthing about being in college was meeting my husband. And nothing else.
Waka: None? Didn't you have friends or something?
Michiko: Shortly after I moved to Tokyo, three or four women came to visit my house in Itabashi, andeach of them played in front of a grand piano, and I was like, "Eh, I've never seen a grand piano. I've
seen a piano before, but I've never seen a grand”. So there were carp in the pond and a waterfall, wow,
doctor.

31

Waka: doctor.
Michiko: Four of us went and three of us.
Waka: She was the daughter of a doctor.
Michiko: I thought it was like an otolaryngologist or a doctor, and it was at that time. I was surprised
to hear them call me "Neiya". I was so surprised to hear them call me "Neiya”. I was so surprised thatthey called me "Neiya," huh? Ojosama (a daughter of a haigh-class family), what? When I stayed
there, I had a soft bed and a soft futon. I said, "Why is this so light? Now, it's normal, but back then, I
was like, what's a feather?
Waka: You had heard of it, but you did not know what it was really like.
Michiko: Bird feathers. And that piano, each of the four of us, each of us says, “I'll play for Elise,”and each of us says, who will play what. But they never said to me, "What about you? “ So everyone
was very kind.
Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: I was really surprised at the difference in environment. Also, my old classmates, who had
never heard much about me, were all shocked to learn that I was born in a coal mine and was thedaughter of a coal miner, and they told me that I was a bunch of scary people.
Waka: They must have certain images.
Michiko: I only knew coal mines, so I don't know how scary it is there. It was a comfortable place.
Waka: It was a cozy place.
Michiko: For me. Except for school. I enjoyed doing things like giving the girl next to me a piggybackride, running errands, and so on. I enjoyed everything except studying.
Waka: That's right.
Michiko: I just thinking that it was no use falling down on the horse poo road. But it was. Everyone

32was so surprised, and I'm sure it's the image of the novel. So I would like to be of some help to themin their prejudice.
I was really surprised at how many of my classmates' houses were like that, each one saying like“neiya”, “baaya” etc. I was really surprised by Tokyo. “Ojosama” etc.
Waka: Were they all from Tokyo?
Michiko: Yes. There was one from Akita, but we stayed at each other's lodgings and came and went.
But my friend from Akita was a person who studied from the bottom up, and they recommended her[to enter the university]. So I gradually realized that she was “honmono” (a real thing: a serious person)
College students, it would be a waste if you don't have people like this. Also, I think that Teruoka
Masatoshi and Masayoshi [Teruoka Yasutaka] are from Waseda University. I was convinced by thetheory called “joshi-daisei bokoku-ron.”
Waka: What do you mean by "convinced"?
Michiko: There were a lot of people who really wanted to go but couldn't, and you had to take on alittle self-doubt. This is a change of environment, isn't it? If I had stayed in a normal environment, I
wouldn't have known about “neiya” and the grand[-pianos].
Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: My mother gave me such an environment, and I suffered, but I am grateful to her. Those
who really wanted to go to college could not [go to college]. I felt the contradiction in the world.
Waka: At that time?
Michiko: Yes, I thought it was strange. But that doesn't mean I would give up this life.
Waka: It was a fun college experience.
Michiko: I had my doubts about myself. So, the apartment, Akabane is too far away, and I get molested[in the commuting train]
Waka: Akabane was a place where you were allowed to lodge?

33

Michiko: Yes, her father's boss. Too far away.
Waka: How far did you go?
Michiko: From Akabane, because he would know the name of the university.
Waka: I won't mention the name of the university.
Michiko: Then that's all there is.
Waka: For now, location is important.
Michiko: Akabane is from Kita-ku to Setagaya. I wonder how many transfers there were.
Waka: That's a long way.
Michiko: It's far away. It was hard for me, so I had to move.
Waka: What grade are you in?
Michiko: When I was in the second or third year, I guess. No, that's vague. It might be soon, I think it
was within a year [after entering the university].
Waka: You mean far away.
Michiko: I lived in an apartment in Setagaya because it was far away and I was anemic often. I lived
alone in an apartment in Setagaya. There was a fashionable woman in the apartment, and a man oftencame to her room and said hello, he was her younger brother. But since we were all back-door entrants,
we didn't know how to study, so her brother was there and taught us.
I thanked the sister and she said, "Because my brother was the freshman representative at theentrance ceremony," and I was like, oh, and I already had great respect for people who could study,
because he was a different person.
So he has to study or he gets restless. I go crazy just hearing the word study. He tried his best toteach me, and in the end, when I graduated, I couldn't get credit for modern literature, I couldn't getcredit for English 2, and I couldn't get about three credits, so I had to submit a report instead of juststaying in school.

34

Waka: Are you glad you didn't stay in school?
Michiko: No mention of staying in school came from the university, report submitted.
WAKA: By submitting a report.
Michiko: Because it was loose then. I didn't know what to write in a report, I didn't know Chinesewriting, and I didn't know how to turn the characters upside down and read them, (＃＃＃＃@00:37:18) because that was the wisdom of (＃＃＃＃@00:37:18). So I asked "my brother is the
freshman representative" and he said yes, so I wrote it in no time and submitted it, and he came backsaying it was good to go.
Waka: Did you graduate?
Michiko: Yes. Soon "my brother" thought that I was in a bad situation , that it was dangerous, and thatshe should not be left alone. He decided to marry me even though I was only 20 years old.
Waka: You mean you were 20? You hadn't graduated yet?
Michiko: Because I was taught when I was a student.
Waka: That retention year is not graduation, I see.
Michiko: H え knew from the moment he met me that I was in a bad situation. Why did he pay
attention to me, of all people, because I was the most dangerous person? Because I was wandering
around. I'm from the countryside, I don't have parents, and there's no one watching me.
Waka: You were two years older than me at the same university?
Michiko: Different faculties.
Waka: What department were you in?
Michiko: Faculty of Agriculture and Veterinary Medicine.

35

Waka: Your father? He is from the Faculty of Agriculture and Veterinary Medicine.
Michiko: In the same Setagaya.
Waka: Literature department?
Michiko: I am in the Japanese Literature Department.
Waka: I'm in the Japanese Literature Department.
Michiko: College of Arts and Sciences.
Waka: Department of Japanese Literature in the Faculty of Literature and Science.
Michiko: What a great way to graduate!
Waka: Did you graduate with a report?
Michiko: The other three. I said, "Why didn't you make it harder?" He said, "It would have taken moretime, and I don't know, but I did it.
Waka: You did it, didn't you?
Michiko: Two different things. He became a teacher at a junior high school and a high school in Niigata.
When did I live with my younger sister?
Waka: You lived together, didn't we, Mom? You talk about it, don't you?
Michiko: This is going back and forth.
Waka: No problem, that's totally fine.
Michiko: My sister came to Tokyo and moved to Daitabashi.
Waka: Where?

36

Michiko: Daitabashi. Can you count the years?
Waka: That's mostly for later.
Michiko: I think I was still in my first year when I went to the apartment in Setagaya.
Waka: You moved from Akabane when you were in your first year.
Michiko: It must have been just a few months since Akabane.
Waka: Akko-chan, come to Daitabashi.
Michiko: My mother asked the professor to let her in and paid another one million yen, apparently,
but she passed all three pharmacy schools she applied to. So she had the ability. She asked me where
I wanted to go, and I told her that she would have a better chance of getting into a college than auniversity.
Waka: I said that. Did you say that she was going to get a chance to meet people?
Michiko: I don't know why I said that, you don't even know what a university is. I still don't knowwhat the idea was that a university is better than a single-department college. My sister entered thepharmacy department of the same university as me, and she despised me because I was not good atstudying.
My sister always returned the money to my parents when she had extra money to send back. I would
tell them that I would buy things like national literature, English something, and so on, and my parents
would send me a lot of money.
Waka: Did you even lie to them to get them to send you money?
Michiko: My sister and I are totally different.
Waka: Yes, you really are.
Michiko: My sister really didn't like her incomprehensible elder sister. But we lived together.
Waka: Room, did you partition it?

37Michiko: I don't remember much.
Waka: Two people lived in one room?
Michiko: I lived there. There were a lot of experiments and other things going on there, so I was verybusy. The 1964 Olympics were held in Daitabashi, near Koshu-kaido Road, and I was about 150 years
old, so I couldn't see them.
Waka: That was amazing.
Michiko: Even now, I thought the Olympics were great. The city has been changing rapidly since then,and the pollution was amazing.
Waka: It was a time of great pollution.
Michiko: That's how it was. I knew that the harvest of the university was my husband. That's why I
don't remember anything about my studies.
Waka: You don't remember anything?
Michiko: Because it's like a concrete flow, when you enter the auditorium.
Waka: like being washed away by concrete?
Michiko: It was like a concrete mixer truck whizzed around in my brain, and then my mind was
solidified.
Waka: It was like that.
Michiko: A concrete mixer truck would come and fill me with concrete, and when it did, it would
harden.
Waka: I freeze.
Michiko: So I don't go into anything.

38

Waka: That's how it is.
Michiko: There came the elder siter of my husband who represented their freshman class. She camewith me there and took the class. I wonder if that's still the case today. They suddenly come [without
permission] and they can sit in our classes.
Waka: You mean a moguri?
Michiko: Is that still the case?
Waka: I think they are still there.
Michiko: She was grinding her teeth. What a waste. You didn't even listen to class.
Waka: Indeed.
Michiko: With a tiny voice.
Waka: From her point of view.
Michiko: So when it came time to get married, their parents were against it because she stoke ill of me
to her parents.
Waka: That's what she was blowing into their head.
Michiko: Because it's true. So he graduated first, and we had talked about getting married from the
beginning. But I don't like studying, and I don't have good feelings about my teachers. So I told him I
didn't like teachers, and he quit.
Waka: Is that why he quit?
Michiko: So my husband's parents were furious and [he] quit.
Waka: Is that why he quit?

39

Michiko: It's really just this one word. I don't think this is helpful.
Waka: It's okay, it's funny.
Michiko: It's a low level.
Waka: Do you think it's a low-level talk?
Michiko: I think, it's a waste. Just having money is such a nice thought, after all.
Waka: But those were the times, in a way.
Michiko: It was like this, it was extreme. So when I graduated and we left Niigata Station for Hokkaido,
there were some amazing number of people, 50, 60, maybe more, who adored him. They waved
goodbye to him.
Waka: Father?
Michiko: I don't know why I was there.
Waka: You mean a lot of people came to Niigata Station to see him off?
Michiko: It must be Niigata Station because it is the nearest station.
Waka: So, when you go to Hokkaido. When you go to Sapporo.
Michiko: Well, I used to go back and forth between Hokkaido and Honshu by ferry. When I would
return home for the winter vacation, my parents would make sure to take the shaké to their bosses,
who took care of them, and to their own parents.
Waka: Shaké.
Michiko: I put one in a box.
Waka: You mean Aramaki?

40Michiko: Yeah. I took that box, used it as a pillow because it was long on the ferry, and took the box
off. One day, the wife of the person who gave it to me told me that she had a hard time because of thecollapse of the body. Oh no.
Waka: You took it out of the box and used it as a pillow?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Doesn't it smell fishy?
Michiko: It's in plastic, and I still didn't like the weight of that shaké. I didn't think about the otherperson at all.
Waka: It's not a pillow in the box, so why don't you take it out of the box and use it as a pillow?
Michiko: Yes.
Waka: Okay, so you slept on a liaison ship with a pillow?
Michiko: Thoughtful.
Waka: Then they told me my body was falling apart.
Michiko: I can't tell my mother, or rather, I can't tell her.
Waka: You can't tell her.
Michiko: Sorry, I couldn't tell her what I did to the pillow. I tell a lot of lies. That's happened to me.
Waka: Just about 50 minutes. Also, just to confirm, what year were you born?
Michiko: 1944.
Waka: 1944.
Michiko: Showa 19.

41

Waka: Showa 19. I just wanted to check the year you were born. You didn't stay another year or
anything until college?
Michiko: No.
Waka: Very interesting, but this is just about 50 minutes. I'm going from where I was born today tocollege all at once.
Michiko: I don't remember much of my childhood because it was so painful.
Waka: Maybe so. They were talking about how much fun it was.
Michiko: It wasn't fun, when I was a child. I wonder if it was fun.
Waka: Let's talk a little bit about that next time, childhood in the coal mine, if you can. I'll leave it here
for today. Thank you very much.
(End)

42