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Does anyone use primary directions? (Read 429 times)

ramez
Ex Member

Does anyone use primary directions?
« on: 07.08.2014 at 15:51 [UT+1] »An astrologer has given a certain prediction for me using this technique. I can't find such a chart here on
astro.com and wonder if anyone is in friendly terms with it and thinks it is useful.
I understood there is secondary direction and that is called progression, that we often refer to here. I haveabsolutely no recollection of anyone ever mentioning primary directions though.
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Nikki.

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #1 - on: 07.08.2014 at 15:57 [UT+1] »I dabbled in it when I was reading this book
http://skyscript.co.uk/primaries.html
Very good book , but I don't think I would try calculating them by hand (lazy) but meant to be great for timing
Posts: 11620
Gender:accuracy, having tested it out though.
I am sure someone like Paul or enlil would know as they know traditional astrology

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Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

ramez
Ex Member« Reply #2 - on: 07.08.2014 at 16:30 [UT+1] »Thanks Nikki
Now that seems one complicated method!
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Nikki.

Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #3 - on: 07.08.2014 at 18:33 [UT+1] »i decided it didnt add enough value to use them, but they do look good

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Friesiangal
Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #4 - on: 07.08.2014 at 23:58 [UT+1] »[quote]Quote from ramez on 07.08.2014 at 15:51 [UT+1]:
An astrologer has given a certain prediction for me using this technique. I can't find such a chart here on astro.com and wonder if anyone
is in friendly terms with it and thinks it is useful.

Posts: 6820
Gender:If astro. com provided charts for primary directions in the same manner as secondary progressions/progressed
charts, perhaps there would be more interest. Those whose astrology programmes include primary directions
seem to have good results. One of my astrology teachers swore by them.
Quote:I understood there is secondary direction and that is called progression, that we often refer to here. I have absolutely no recollection ofanyone ever mentioning primary directions though.
A 'secondary' progression (because there's already a 'primary') is based upon the planet's actual movement per
day = 1 year of life. You can simply finger follow the positions through an ephemeris, counting days for years
to get approx. positions for the year in question.
A primary direction is a hypothetical calculation and extremely difficult to mathematically work out mentally.
Hypothetical solar arc directions, in which planets move at same rate as progressed Sun, are a simple additionof s.p. Sun degrees to a planet's natal position. Much easier.
There's no logical reason why they should work,
yet they do!

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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #5 - on: 08.08.2014 at 08:44 [UT+1] »Quote from ramez on 07.08.2014 at 15:51 [UT+1]:
An astrologer has given a certain prediction for me using this technique. I can't find such a chart here on astro.com and wonder if anyone
is in friendly terms with it and thinks it is useful.
I understood there is secondary direction and that is called progression, that we often refer to here. I have absolutely no recollection ofanyone ever mentioning primary directions though.

Primary directions are based upon primary motion. Typically we're used to using secondary motion for othertechniques. The basic difference is that secondary motion is the motion of planets through the zodiac - ie, theSun moving from Aries to Taurus to Gemini etc. that motion is secondary motion.
Primary motion is motion based on the rotation of the earth. For example the Sun rising on the ascendant in
the morning, moving through the 12th house and 11th house and entering the 10th house and culminating on
the midheaven and eventually setting in the west at the 7th house cusp.
Primary directions are directing a planet from one point to another by way of applying primary motion. As an
example, a planet 10 degrees from the ascendant will, in 10 degrees, meet the ascendant. One could 'direct'
that planet to meet the ascendant and using this could determine roughly when that 'event' would occur andmake some astrologically meaningful interpretation from it. It's an old method of forecasting but one which has
survived right through to the modern era.
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Nikki.

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #6 - on: 08.08.2014 at 10:03 [UT+1] »Since I am not sure sf is calculating PD Corrently I haven't really used it, but am interested in zodiacal releasing
but it does look like you really need to see them together , it might be the missing piece of the puzzle at the
moment.

Posts: 11620
Gender:

Doesn't anyone know any freeware that is accurate in calculating directions?

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Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #7 - on: 08.08.2014 at 11:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Nikki2 on 08.08.2014 at 10:03 [UT+1]:
Since I am not sure sf is calculating PD Corrently I haven't really used it, but am interested in zodiacal releasing but it does look like you
really need to see them together , it might be the missing piece of the puzzle at the moment.
Doesn't anyone know any freeware that is accurate in calculating directions?

I have never used it myself, but I remember Martin Gansten recommended Morinus on skyscript once.
Personally I would think if it's good enough for him, it's probably good enough for anyone else too.
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Nikki.
Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #8 - on: 08.08.2014 at 12:36 [UT+1] »yes he mentions a few but i didnt think any were freeware, thought all were paid apps

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Keyla

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #9 - on: 08.08.2014 at 13:16 [UT+1] »Astro.com do provide primary directions chart even with options to use different keys. It's in Extended chart
selection - Special chart - choose 3 dim. chart with primary directions for 10 or 30 years. Hard to read it
thoughPosts: 594
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Yukionna
Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #10 - on: 08.08.2014 at 21:53 [UT+1] »Janus calculates them, but as I can't do it myself, I don't know if it's accurate. I have Gansten's book, buthaven't been able to get past the first 3 chapters, which bugs me not just a little. I definitely want to learn it,
as it seems a great predictive tool.
There's a pdf with a tutorial by Deborah Houlding from Skyscript which I did find helpful, but I haven't finishedit yet, so don't know what exactly I'll be able to do in the end:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/easy_directions.pdf
Posts: 1690

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Ariondys

Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #11 - on: 10.08.2014 at 08:54 [UT+1] »Quote from Nikki2 on 08.08.2014 at 10:03 [UT+1]:
Since I am not sure sf is calculating PD Corrently I haven't really used it, but am interested in zodiacal releasing but it does look like you
really need to see them together , it might be the missing piece of the puzzle at the moment.
Doesn't anyone know any freeware that is accurate in calculating directions?

No to SF pimary directions*; when I chewed into primary directions, which is a mess to learn, beyond themwithout some foundational skills like math, spherical trigonometry was not taught in high school for me... but I
took surveying, astronomy, and stuff, like accidentally the stuff I would need to begin to comprehend primary
Posts: 1836
Gender:directions. If you can manually calculate house cusps with a house system( primary direction are intimate to
the house system you want to use) then you can proceed successfully. Not as hard as it the mess makes it lookonce you make it to the end.
*SF doesn't do it like someone who has managed to figure it out would do it.
Morinus would be the free software capable of doing some primary directions properly if you can manage thecontrols...
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/Home-Education/Morinus.shtml
Basically there are many options along the way to calculating them... which causes a lot of permutations andproblems that need correcting.
A zodiacal primary direction(with no latitude) of a planet to a house cusp will allow a progressed housecusp(naibod rate) to a planet to imitate it exactly.
mundo type primary directions no, can eye it a bit, but want software to do it for you. (if say the sun was at
the 0.97th house... then since the sun has no latitude it will actually be where it looks like it is, and then whenyour progress the house cusps, it will track along where the 0.97th house position will progress to)Morinus doesn't do topocentric houses. Astro will only do topocentric houses.(you should get Dosbox to runit) will do primary directions like Alexander Marr, if you can manage the computer to get that running(legacy
software). http://www.jamesalexander.de/resources.html
Presumably you want not-free software to remove the pain. Placidus, or Polaris.. i don't have.
Of course, I'm assuming none of this will help you if you want to primary direct Nessus or something... thenyou have to learn math.
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Nikki.

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #12 - on: 11.08.2014 at 10:46 [UT+1] »Quote from Yukionna on 08.08.2014 at 21:53 [UT+1]:
Janus calculates them, but as I can't do it myself, I don't know if it's accurate. I have Gansten's book, but haven't been able to get past
the first 3 chapters, which bugs me not just a little. I definitely want to learn it, as it seems a great predictive tool.
There's a pdf with a tutorial by Deborah Houlding from Skyscript which I did find helpful, but I haven't finished it yet, so don't know what
exactly I'll be able to do in the end:

Posts: 11620
Gender:http://www.skyscript.co.uk/easy_directions.pdf

Yes that's a good PDF, i also feel the same about ganstens book, am sure it will grow on me.
I will try the morinus link when at homeThansk to both of you
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Cor Leonis

Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #13 - on: 12.08.2014 at 17:56 [UT+1] »I remember this conversation occurring several times on the forum the past few years, skycript article
referencing Gansten book been linked a few times.
I have the book, good material, condensed in terms of raw and useful information.
Not a frilly book or la la land type of book, practical examples.
Posts: 693

I've used PD before in trying out some major life experiences. When I first read his book wanted to calculate
the primary direction of E to C with either or as the significator (in first case, E direct to C in other case, C
direct to converse E) and found some dates using the special charts feature with primary directions in 3D
sphere per the tip offered from Keyla. Thanks, Keyla!
It IS hard to read, I agree, but the PDF does a good job of listing directions in order of significator followed bypromissor.
Around 4 or 5 years of age, cannot remember the exact date anymore, but I remember the neighbourhood we
lived at, the playground, that it was before kindergarten, and out at the tennis courts with bunch ofneighbourhood kids, playing baseball, not organized teams, just hitting a ball, taking turns, on the courts, andI walked up, it was my turn next, but I walked too close to the kid in front of me, and even remember thesense of warning in myself which I ignored as my mind thought ideally of whoever was batting, that he would
surely hit it a mile, and I got too close, he swung, and missed the ball but instead that bat went crack on myforehead, I screamed bloody murder, passed out, when I woke up, all the kids were gone, an empty lot.
I've always wondered on this and think E directed to C.
So using Primary Directions provides the following dates:

EmC

5° 2'40"

3 Apr 1982

C m E c 5° 4'28" 14 Apr 1982
I cannot remember exactly when that happened though, 4, 5 or 6 years old, but pretty sure it was before
kindergarten, and it was in the spring/summer, so 1982 could work, certainly E to C works for the physicalevent of what happened.
Just looked at calendar, 03 April was a Saturday, which would fit
the experience with lots of kids out at the park that day.
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Alice Portman
Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #14 - on: 13.08.2014 at 03:29 [UT+1] »Quote from Ariondys on 10.08.2014 at 08:54 [UT+1]:

No to SF pimary directions*; when I chewed into primary directions, which is a mess to learn, beyond them without some foundational

Posts: 2541
Gender:skills like math, spherical trigonometry was not taught in high school for me... but I took surveying, astronomy, and stuff, like accidentallythe stuff I would need to begin to comprehend primary directions. If you can manually calculate house cusps with a house system( primary
direction are intimate to the house system you want to use) then you can proceed successfully. Not as hard as it the mess makes it lookonce you make it to the end.
*SF doesn't do it like someone who has managed to figure it out would do it.

Solar Fire always gets the best experts to calculate their programs and this is the case with Primary Directions
as well. I have highlighted the names of the experts they have used in their program.
This text is taken from Solar Fire v 9's information on Primary Directions:"Primary Directions are based on the Primary Motion of the points of the chart during the hours immediately after birth. The questionthat we ask when looking at Primary Directions is: how long does it take one point, such as Mars, to reach the same position in thesky that another point, such as the Moon, had at the moment of birth? By computing precisely the number of degrees that Mars
must travel, and mapping this to the years of the native’s life, we can compute a rough time when Mars’ influence comes to bear on
the Moon.
Over the centuries, astrologers have used different methods to determine exact definitions for concepts like “the same position in thesky”, and even what “the position of a point” means. This topic describes how these different techniques are presented in Solar Fire,and how the results are calculated. Primary Direction tools are accessed from the "Dynamic" menu on the Main Screen under"Transits & Progressions".
Terminology:·The “Promissor” is the active point or planet, the one bringing its influence to bear at a particular time.
·The “Significator” is the point or planet receiving the influence. (So above, Mars is the Promissor, and the Moon the Significator.)·“Primary Motion” is the motion of points across the sky during a day.
Directions are engaged in two types of reports – “Directions to Radix” and “Transits to Directions”. Primary directions are engaged
when you then choose “Primary Mundane”, “Primary Zodiacal”, or “Primary van Dam” from the “Directions” menu. “Primary van
Dam” directions are based on the work of present-day astrologer Wim van Dam, and are largely unchanged from Solar Fire 8. This
topic is primarily about the other two types, “Primary Mundane” and “Primary Zodiacal”.
Acknowledgments
We would not have been able to present this feature without several excellent texts on the subject of primary directions that havebeen written recently. Bob Makransky’s “Primary Directions: A Primer of Calculation” served as our initial guide, and remains an
indispensible reference regarding the mathematics involved. Martin Gansten’s “Primary Directions: Astrology’s Old MasterTechnique” is an excellent introduction to both the methods and the uses of primary directions, with a particular emphasis on thehistory of their use and how that contrasts with recent innovations. Rumen Kolev’s “Primary Directions I, II, and III” served as the
final guide, with many useful examples and a fine description of the various Rate Keys. (When these sources were in dispute, wedeferred to Gansten.)
Mundane or Zodiacal?
All Primary Directions involve computations based on Mundane Position, but there are two established techniques for which Mundane
Positions we work with.
·Primary Mundane directions compute mundane positions based on the actual positions of the planets, and work with aspects in
Mundane degrees. Also known as directions “with latitude”.
·Primary Zodiacal directions compute mundane positions of the Zodiacal longitudes of the planets, and work with aspects based onLongitude.
Consider our example of directing Mars to the Moon. Suppose Mars is at 5 Taurus (so a longitude of 35 degrees), but 1 degree above
the ecliptic (Latitude +1 degree). Then suppose the Moon is at 5 Aries (longitude 5 degrees), but latitude -3 degrees. If we werecomputing Primary Mundane directions, we would work with these points exactly: (35 long, 1 lat) directed to (5 long, -3 lat). If weuse Primary Zodiacal directions, we would discard the latitudes and work with the points on the ecliptic, so we would be directing (35long, 0 lat) to (5 long, 0 lat). These two approaches can produce very different results.
Regarding aspects, the tradition when computing Primary Zodiacal directions is to add (or subtract) the aspect angle from the firstpoint’s longitude. So if we wanted to know when Directed Mars would be Square the moon, we would add or subtract 90 degrees
from Mars’ longitude, and then direct that point (again with zero latitude) to the Moon’s longitude.
Aspects in Primary Mundane directions are computed based on the Mundane Positions, and we also base the angle on the planet
being directed to, rather than the one being directed. So we would turn the actual position of the Moon (with latitude) into a
Mundane Position, add or subtract 90 degrees for a square, and then direct Mars to that position."

Alice
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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #15 - on: 13.08.2014 at 09:08 [UT+1] »Quote from Ariondys on 10.08.2014 at 08:54 [UT+1]:
No to SF pimary directions*; when I chewed into primary directions, which is a mess to learn, beyond them without some foundational
skills like math, spherical trigonometry was not taught in high school for me... but I took surveying, astronomy, and stuff, like accidentallythe stuff I would need to begin to comprehend primary directions. If you can manually calculate house cusps with a house system( primary
direction are intimate to the house system you want to use) then you can proceed successfully. Not as hard as it the mess makes it lookonce you make it to the end.
*SF doesn't do it like someone who has managed to figure it out would do it.

Can you explain what exactly SF doesn't do right? It might be interesting to take a simple primary direction
and calculate it by hand and compare the result to Solar Fire and then to something like Morinus?

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Nikki.

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #16 - on: 13.08.2014 at 11:53 [UT+1] »Maybe someone can suggest sample data to use? I would love to know how accurate sf isPosts: 11620
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Ariondys

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #17 - on: 14.08.2014 at 05:56 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 13.08.2014 at 09:08 [UT+1]:
Quote from Ariondys on 10.08.2014 at 08:54 [UT+1]:
No to SF pimary directions*; when I chewed into primary directions, which is a mess to learn, beyond them without somefoundational skills like math, spherical trigonometry was not taught in high school for me... but I took surveying,astronomy, and stuff, like accidentally the stuff I would need to begin to comprehend primary directions. If you canmanually calculate house cusps with a house system( primary direction are intimate to the house system you want to use)then you can proceed successfully. Not as hard as it the mess makes it look once you make it to the end.
*SF doesn't do it like someone who has managed to figure it out would do it.

Posts: 1836
Gender:Can you explain what exactly SF doesn't do right? It might be interesting to take a simple primary direction and calculate it by hand andcompare the result to Solar Fire and then to something like Morinus?

I was careful in how I said it, I didn't say it wasn't doing it right. It's not bugged. Though the Mundane
Primaries have a weird looking display; their directed mundane position referencing display is 0 at the Asc and
90 at the MC and con't clockwise. And the Wim van dam primaries forwards is what we would call converse.
Well, it didn't have zodiacal primaries in version 8. The addition of such could change my assessment.
The key rates and house system options are ignored with Wim van dam. The choice of key rates I see includes
a Natal Solar rate, but not a true solar rate.
http://www.astrosoftware.com/wimprimaries.htm
Wim van Dam’s system of Primary Directions: Use time-arcs, neglect latitude and use the progression of thesecondary sun in longitude as the key for the measurement of time.
neglects latitude but is essentially a mundane type.
Thus in 2013 when I was trying to figure out what was going on, they had no zodiacal type.
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #18 - on: 14.08.2014 at 09:04 [UT+1] »Quote from Ariondys on 14.08.2014 at 05:56 [UT+1]:
I was careful in how I said it, I didn't say it wasn't doing it right. It's not bugged.

Okay by "right" I meant about your claim that it "doesn't do it like someone who has managed to figure it out
would do it" - so if it's not doing it like someone who has figured out how to do it, it is, presumably not doing
it 'right'.
I'm still interested in what it is or isn't doing compared to someone who has "managed to figure it out would
do it" - do you just mean using a zodiacal type?
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Ariondys

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #19 - on: 15.08.2014 at 10:51 [UT+1] »It's that the Wim van dam method does the directing of the MC in ecliptic longitude
I don't think it qualifies as a primary direction.
primary direction is the earth's rotation, which is in equatorial coordinates.

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Ariondys
Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #20 - on: 15.08.2014 at 13:49 [UT+1] »Here's a sample of Morinus.
Notice the pd A m the 3rd cusp
what's wrong is that it gives the same date for Zodiacal as for Mundane.
SF Primary Mundane( on my version at least) agrees with Morinus
However, this is the date when the Zodiacal pd A m 3rd
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Morinus_sample.png

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Ariondys

Member

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?
« Reply #21 - on: 18.08.2014 at 09:17 [UT+1] »It is reasonably evident a major overhaul was done between SF8 and SF9... there was no 'classic' vs 'modern'toggle before
http://www.esotech.com.au/SFHelp/index.html?primary_directions_in_solar_fi.htm
This bit in particular catches my attention.. as probably addressing what was wrong.
Converse Directions
Posts: 1836
Gender:The classic “Converse” option affects the Directions to Radix report simply by switching which planet is being
directed to which... The converse direction of Mars to the Sun uses the same mathematics, and produces thesame result, as the regular direction of Sun to Mars.
In a converse direction of Mars to the Sun, Mars is still the Promissor and the Sun the Significator, but incomputations, we actually move the Sun by its primary motion, and Mars remains fixed in its natal position.
Modern Converse
You also have an option of using a more modern definition of "Converse" from the 19th Century; instead ofswitching which point is being directed to which, we direct the point backwards.
The modern and classical converse techniques produce different results; they’re generally similar, but they caneasily differ by a couple years. Solar Fire defaults to the Classical Converse, but users can switch to using theModern Converse in Rate for Primary Directions.

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Nikki.

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #22 - on: 18.08.2014 at 10:05 [UT+1] »They seemed to have changed tact a bit and gone into expanding their traditional astrology section of thesoftware,i assume because demand has changed.
I am happy to run reports in 9 and see if they match the calculations
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Ariondys

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #23 - on: 19.08.2014 at 12:37 [UT+1] »sun and 3rd expressed in equatorial-degrees(not ecliptic)
sin(x) = tan(lat)tan(decl)
night semi-arc = x + 90
sin(x)=tan(50°01')tan(7°50'02")
night semiarc of sun= 99.44292320°(267°19'36" - 198°29'56") = 68.82777777°
68.82777777°/99.44292320° = 0.69213349 (sun is 69.2% of the way from midnight to rising)
Posts: 1836
Gender:sin(x)=tan(50°01')tan(18°16'29")
night semi-arc at declination of 3rd = 113.19016860°
113.19016860° * 0.69213349 = 78.34270675°
78.34270675° + 229°35'49" = 307.93965119° = 307°56'23"
when progressed IC reaches
307°56'23" equatorial degree (ecl.long 5aq34'26")
which is Dec 26 2014
you'll have to imagine the placidus house lines

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converse_sun_to_the_3rd_001.png

i'm not even going to try to drawn 'em« Last Edit: 20.08.2014 at 02:24 [UT+1] by Ariondys »IP Logged

Ariondys

Re: Does anyone use primary directions?

Member« Reply #24 - on: 19.08.2014 at 12:50 [UT+1] »topocentric houses with Astro...
comes closer that you'd expect for using a different house system...(my 3rd cusp is 10' different between house
types)
but the result is only 1' different.

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sun_to_the_3rd_001.PNG

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