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Ptolemaic system (Read 654 times)

Curiosa Nervosa
MemberPtolemaic system« on: 27.09.2012 at 06:06 [UT+1] »Can someone explain what this means? This is wrong according to the astronomical lineup of the planets, or..?

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Ptolemaic_system_.jpg

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Curiosa Nervosa

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #1 - on: 27.09.2012 at 06:12 [UT+1] »..

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Dawn Cerise
Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #2 - on: 27.09.2012 at 06:47 [UT+1] »Dear Curiosa,
Back in Ptolemy's time, they couldn't see, or didn't know to watch for anything past Saturn.
The Ptolemaic Systems came about for the most part because all were under the misapprehension thateverything revolved around the Earth.
This premise is the basis for the system & is also why your picture only shows out to Saturn.
Additionally, the ptolemaic aspects are the basics:
m, n, o, p, q
Posts: 1824
Gender:and the Traditional Chart Rulerships are based on this information as well...
Aries & Scorpio ruled by Mars also ruling the 1st & 8th houses
Taurus & Libra ruled by Venus also the 2nd & 7th houses
Gemini & Virgo ruled by Mercury, also the 3rd & 6th houses
Cancer has the Moon, the 4th house
Leo has the Sun, the 5th house
Sagittarius & Pisces are ruled by Jupiter, 9th & 12th
Capricorn & Aquarius are ruled by Saturn, 10th & 11th.
I use Ptolemaic aspects when looking into that traditional relationship potential of a querent. Ladies with
applying aspects to Mars & the Sun are usually ably read to define type if not the person
they will marry. The
same for men, but using the Moon & Venus. It is an old standard & for the most part, it works. We know that
there are those times when Astrology is simply dead on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy

Enjoy the Quest!
Love, DawnCerise
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #3 - on: 27.09.2012 at 09:22 [UT+1] »Curiosa
Dawn has given you a good overview of this but I just wanted to clarify a few points or expand them.
Really the important thing to remember is that this isn't so much Ptolemy really, it's actually called thechaldean order. It is used in several places in astrology, including the rulership of signs (as Dawn points out)
and the chaldean terms and the chaldean decanates.
The term Chaldean should give some clues as to its origin: Ancient Babylon. Chaldea was the term used forareas around babylon by the greeks, as well as babylonians themselves. So really this order of planets far
precedes Ptolemy.
This chaldean order is based I guess, as Dawn says, from a geocentric model of the solar system, but really it's
not so important that it was a misapprehension, the important point was that this is how it LOOKS based on
observation. The chaldean order is therefore based on the apparent motions and speeds of the planets.
I just want to correct/clarify one thing from Dawn's post:"and the Traditional Chart Rulerships are based on this information as well...
Aries & Scorpio ruled by Mars also ruling the 1st & 8th houses "Actually, traditionally, the traditional chart rulerships only extend to the signs, not to the houses. So yes Mars
rules Scorpio and Mars, but not the 1st and 8th house. This is actually a modern invention of the very late 19th
century, early 20th century.
However, our chaldean order does not let us down because here too was the chaldean order used, starting withthe slowest planet Saturn, assigned to the first house. So that the first house was not assigned to Mars,
because Mars rules Aries, but instead was assigned to Saturn, the first of the chaldean order, 2nd house to
Jupiter, 3rd to Mars and so on.

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Curiosa Nervosa
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #4 - on: 27.09.2012 at 09:59 [UT+1] »Thank you. A bit confusing when I get the question that the zodiac doesn't correlate with theastronomy..Another thing, how about those astronomers who say that the sun is mostly in c

Posts: 4365

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #5 - on: 27.09.2012 at 10:40 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 09:59 [UT+1]:
Thank you. A bit confusing when I get the question that the zodiac doesn't correlate with the astronomy..Another thing, how about those
astronomers who say that the sun is mostly incWell the zodiac doesn't correlate with astronomy is very vague. What part of astronomy?
Normally this argument is flawed right from the outset because an astronomer means something else than an
astrologer when we use the technical term "Gemini" - and it IS a technical term.
For an astronomer they mean that portion of the sky defined based on a star constellation called Gemini.
For an astrologer they mean the 30 degree arc segment along the ecliptic beginning from the 60th degree ofthe ecliptic.
The two are not the same. In short astronomers mean the constellations whilst astrologers DO NOT. They meana 30 segment. The constellations are not equal, the zodiac signs are. The zodiac signs are therefore not thesame as the zodiac constellations.
Astronomers the world over seem to not understand that point.
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Curiosa Nervosa
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #6 - on: 27.09.2012 at 11:15 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 10:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 09:59 [UT+1]:
Thank you. A bit confusing when I get the question that the zodiac doesn't correlate with the astronomy..Another thing,
how about those astronomers who say that the sun is mostly incPosts: 4365
Well the zodiac doesn't correlate with astronomy is very vague. What part of astronomy?
Normally this argument is flawed right from the outset because an astronomer means something else than an astrologer when we use thetechnical term "Gemini" - and it IS a technical term.

For an astronomer they mean that portion of the sky defined based on a star constellation called
Gemini.
For an astrologer they mean the 30 degree arc segment along the ecliptic beginning from the60th degree of the ecliptic.
The two are not the same. In short astronomers mean the constellations whilst astrologers DO NOT. They mean a 30 segment. The
constellations are not equal, the zodiac signs are. The zodiac signs are therefore not the same as the zodiac constellations.
Astronomers the world over seem to not understand that point.

So what is a relatively easy and understandable way to explain them the difference of the 2?
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IP Logged-Jenny-Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #7 - on: 27.09.2012 at 11:18 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 11:15 [UT+1]:
So what is a relatively easy and understandable way to explain them the difference of the 2?

Posts: 800

One is star pictures in the sky, and the other is degrees on a 360o sphere.

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_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #8 - on: 27.09.2012 at 11:24 [UT+1] »Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 11:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 11:15 [UT+1]:
So what is a relatively easy and understandable way to explain them the difference of the 2?

One is star pictures in the sky, and the other is degrees on a 360o sphere.

Ye pretty much, the other way to look at it is to say that astronomers use the actual stars, astrologers use,quite deliberately, a circle and divide it into twelve equal parts, and just happen to name those sections of thecircle after the constellation that predominantly overlaps it.
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Curiosa Nervosa

Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #9 - on: 27.09.2012 at 12:56 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 11:24 [UT+1]:
Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 11:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 11:15 [UT+1]:

Posts: 4365

So what is a relatively easy and understandable way to explain them the difference of the 2?

One is star pictures in the sky, and the other is degrees on a 360o sphere.

Ye pretty much, the other way to look at it is to say that astronomers use the actual stars, astrologers use, quite deliberately, a circle anddivide it into twelve equal parts, and just happen to name those sections of the circle after the constellation that predominantly overlaps
it.

But we also use the lunar phases, fixed stars, asteroids...So we do use actual stars, the moon and such..
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #10 - on: 27.09.2012 at 13:05 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 12:56 [UT+1]:
But we also use the lunar phases, fixed stars, asteroids...So we do use actual stars, the moon and such..

Posts: 800

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the question of the difference between constellations and zodiac signs.

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PhoenixNoodleSoup

Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #11 - on: 27.09.2012 at 13:28 [UT+1] »Well it looks like everyone has pretty well summed this up. Just wanted to say - if your talking either
constellations or the zodiac- don't let astronomers tease or fool you- for the purposes of terrestial/celestialnavigation they use the very same coordinate system as tropical astrologers

some even know a thing or

two about astrology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_coordinate_system#Ecliptic_system
Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 13:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 12:56 [UT+1]:
But we also use the lunar phases, fixed stars, asteroids...So we do use actual stars, the moon and such..

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the question of the difference between constellations and zodiac signs.

Check out a Naval ephemeris and almanac some time - lunar phases - fixed stars - navigation astronomers use
the same information and similar format as astrologers
they're falling behind with asteroids though - I think the most any of them give positions for is 2020 asteroids ? How can I work with that ?

PNS
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Re: Ptolemaic system

Curiosa Nervosa
Member« Reply #12 - on: 27.09.2012 at 13:45 [UT+1] »Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 13:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 12:56 [UT+1]:
But we also use the lunar phases, fixed stars, asteroids...So we do use actual stars, the moon and such..

Posts: 4365
Yes, but that's irrelevant to the question of the difference between constellations and zodiac signs.

How so? For instance we use the moon in the signs..Don't these correlate with the astronomy at all?
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Re: Ptolemaic system-Jenny-Member« Reply #13 - on: 27.09.2012 at 14:20 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 13:45 [UT+1]:
Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 13:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 12:56 [UT+1]:
But we also use the lunar phases, fixed stars, asteroids...So we do use actual stars, the moon and such..

Posts: 800

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the question of the difference between constellations and zodiac signs.
How so? For instance we use the moon in the signs..Don't these correlate with the astronomy at all?

'Depends if you use the sidereal or tropical zodiac. Sidereal is based on the constellations and tropical is basedon the 30o segments.....and as Paul said, they overlap. Try googling; the difference between sidereal andtropical I'm sure there is a picture diagram out there somewhere, I find it easier to understand if I can see it.
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Re: Ptolemaic system_Paul_Ex Member« Reply #14 - on: 27.09.2012 at 14:35 [UT+1] »Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 14:20 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 13:45 [UT+1]:
Quote from -Jenny- on 27.09.2012 at 13:05 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 12:56 [UT+1]:
But we also use the lunar phases, fixed stars, asteroids...So we do use actual stars, the moonand such..

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the question of the difference between constellations and zodiac signs.
How so? For instance we use the moon in the signs..Don't these correlate with the astronomy at all?
'Depends if you use the sidereal or tropical zodiac. Sidereal is based on the constellations and tropical is based on the 30o segments.....andas Paul said, they overlap. Try googling; the difference between sidereal and tropical I'm sure there is a picture diagram out there
somewhere, I find it easier to understand if I can see it.

Right but even the sidereal astrologers are not using consteallations, they're just using a fixed star and startinga zodiac from that - but whereas the constellations are not equal length, the sidereal zodiac is.

Curiosa Nervosa
Do we use stars? Absolutely fixed stars etc and the sun is a star. We know this. But what we do not do is use
the constellations to determine how the zodiac is calculated. The only star we use to determine that is our sun
and its apparent orbit around our earth. We take that circle that the sun makes (apparently) around the earth,called the ecliptic, and we notice that the Sun's relationship to the earth naturally forms a division of four. It
does so a the time when the sun changes direction from north to south and vice versa, and this happens when
the band that the sun appears to move along, the ecliptic, intersects with the equator of the earth, were it tobe projected into space. The intersection of the ecliptic with this celestial equator happens twice a year and wecall them the vernal and autumnal equinox. The sun reaches its peak in between these two dates known as thesolstices. This forms a natural division of the year into 4. In addition to this division we divide each quadrant
into 3 and we get the division of the ecliptic into 12 equal sections - this is the tropical zodiac. So we use thespring equinox, the first intersection of the equator and ecliptic of the new year, as the beginning of the zodiac.
This is 0 Aries.
You'll notice that we're not looking at any constellations here.
The sidereal zodiac on the other hand thinks that sometime way back when the zodiac was calculated byexamining the position of planets against a backdrop of stars and they look for one particular star with which to
calculate the zodiac from. They're looking for a star that they can use to calculate the zodiac from because they
are not fusing the zodiac to the earth's relationship with the sun, but instead fusing it to the earth's
relationship to the stars - or, at least one in particular. So normally they use Spica or something like that. And
they calculate the zodiac from there. The difference from the tropical and sidereal zodiac is called anayanamsha. In practical terms, what you do is you calculate the tropical zodiac as normal and then subtract thegiven ayanamsha.
However, the earth is wobbling on its axis which gives the impression that the backdrop of stars, spica included,
is moving. So we have to continually update this ayanamsha. This phenomenon is called Precession of The
Equinoxes and is so called because if you take the spring equinox, which, as know, is 0 Aries in tropicalastrology, and observe it through time against a backdrop of stars, it would seem that the equinox is precessing
backwards in relation to them. Or, if you wanted to fix the equinox instead, it would look like the stars are
moving forwards. In reality it is that the earth is wobbling and the stars are not moving at all, just that we are.
So the equinox precesses backwards at a rate of 1 degree every 72 years and so every 72 years an extra degree
is added to the ayanamsha.
I explain all this to point out something about astrologers: NONE of them use the constellations to define thezodiac. Tropical astrologers use the earth's relationship to the Sun and divide the great circle upon which the
Sun appears to move around the earth into 12 beginning from the spring equinox. Sidereal astrologers do theexact same only they use ONE particular fixed star to begin the zodiac from rather than using the springequinox. Both zodiacs are equal divisions of 30 degrees. The constellations, being something else entirely, arenot.
The common claim from sidereal astrologers that their zodiac 'matches' the constellations, or that you can gooutside and see in which sign a planet is in, is totally flawed. They cannot. Their zodiac also does not match up
with the constellations. Similarly the argument that the astrologers are incorrect cos their signs have changed
is similarly incorrect based on confusion that the astronomers have over what a zodiac sign is - they commonly
mistake a zodiac sign for a constellation. But as we now should understand, a zodiac sign is a 30 degree arc on
the ecliptic, a constellation is not.
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TheRealPhoebe

Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #15 - on: 27.09.2012 at 14:45 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 09:22 [UT+1]:
Curiosa
However, our chaldean order does not let us down because here too was the chaldean order used, starting with the slowest planet Saturn,assigned to the first house. So that the first house was not assigned to Mars, because Mars rules Aries, but instead was assigned to Saturn,the first of the chaldean order, 2nd house to Jupiter, 3rd to Mars and so on.

Very very interesting Paul, thanks for that!
The below list (quickly) sourced fromhttp://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2063&start=0&sid=ec8adc577
1cfef6bb4ee562e284e946b and do read the whole thread
CHALDEAN NATURAL RULERS OF HOUSES
1st H: Saturn, the planet that gives structure is well suited for 1st H as 1st H governs body of native.
2nd H: Jupiter, the greater benefic, universal sigfinicator of substance/money/finance, also suitable to govern
2nd H as 2nd H = moveable possesions, money, substance...
3rd H: Mars also is suitable to govern 3rd house - house of siblings as Mars is universal significator of siblings,
Mars (warrior planet) governs brothers as it is your brothers that are supposed to fight (martial) your enemies
with you
4th H: Sun, also is suitable to govern 4th house (parents esp. father and sun is universal significator of father).

5th H: Venus, why of course! the house of pleasures and Venus!
6th H: Mercury, Mercury and servants and maids and messengers or the ones who we send to do errands...
7th H: Moon, moon = public, other people, marriage=7th H
8th H: Saturn ohh! the old man, universal significator of death = 8th H
9th H: Jupiter = religion, wisdom, long trips = 9th house
10th H: Mars eeeh...I am stumped unless career also means hard work!
11th H: Sun, good spirit, friends, 11th H
12th H: Venus Venus??? natural ruler of 12th Ohh dear!!! don't know how to relate 12th to Venus
author: astrojin Fri Nov 24 2006

Back to the drawing-board for me!

Funny Astrology Quote of the Century:: There's a lot more bad mojo in the 12th house then just lust. ~ MarkF

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IP Logged-JennyMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #16 - on: 27.09.2012 at 14:47 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 14:35 [UT+1]:
Right but even the sidereal astrologers are not using consteallations, they're just using a fixed star and starting a zodiac from that - butwhereas the constellations are not equal length, the sidereal zodiac is.

Posts: 800

Thanks Paul, I was hoping you'd come back and explain it properly cuz I don't fully grasp the whole shebang
myself...need pictures.

Ooo! Chris Brennan even has videos in this link! But CN, scroll down to the end of the article and there's agreat picture of all three; sidereal, tropical and the constellations.
http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2011/01/28/the-tropical-sidereal-and-constell ationalzodiacs/
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #17 - on: 27.09.2012 at 15:04 [UT+1] »The Astrodienst Fixed Stars chart is very cool for showing the difference between signs and constellations
PNS
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=1&nho2=30&
amp;btyp=2&mth=afz&sday=27&smon=9&syr=2012&hsy=-1&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&ast=
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IP Logged_Paul_Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #18 - on: 27.09.2012 at 15:13 [UT+1] »Quote from TheRealPhoebe on 27.09.2012 at 14:45 [UT+1]:
Very very interesting Paul, thanks for that!
The below list (quickly) sourced fromhttp://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2063&start=0&sid=ec8adc577 1cfef6bb4ee562e284e946b
CHALDEAN NATURAL RULERS OF HOUSES
1st H: Saturn, the planet that gives structure is well suited for 1st H as 1st H governs body of native.
2nd H: Jupiter, the greater benefic, universal sigfinicator of substance/money/finance, also suitable to govern 2nd H as 2nd H = moveable
possesions, money, substance...
3rd H: Mars also is suitable to govern 3rd house - house of siblings as Mars is universal significator of siblings, Mars (warrior planet)governs brothers as it is your brothers that are supposed to fight (martial) your enemies with you
4th H: Sun, also is suitable to govern 4th house (parents esp. father and sun is universal significator of father).
5th H: Venus, why of course! the house of pleasures and Venus!
6th H: Mercury, Mercury and servants and maids and messengers or the ones who we send to do errands...
7th H: Moon, moon = public, other people, marriage=7th H
8th H: Saturn ohh! the old man, universal significator of death = 8th H
9th H: Jupiter = religion, wisdom, long trips = 9th house
10th H: Mars eeeh...I am stumped unless career also means hard work!
11th H: Sun, good spirit, friends, 11th H
12th H: Venus Venus??? natural ruler of 12th Ohh dear!!! don't know how to relate 12th to Venus
author: astrojin Fri Nov 24 2006

Back to the drawing-board for me!

I think Mars with the 10th for a couple of reasons, which may or may not be valid, but let me just throw someideas out there.
A lot of the signification of the houses comes from the sun's relationship with the day at the time of the daythat the sun occupies those houses. For example the 8th house is death because originally it was seen as the
BEGINNING of death. The reason for this is that after the sun's rise through the sky, it is at this point that thesun noticeably slumps and loses power and light toward the horizon, after which, when it is on the 7th, it will
be sunset and the sun will after wards die under the earth.
However at the 10th house the Sun is directly over head. In ancient greece we can easily imagine that the timeof the day when the sun is direclty overhead is known to be too hot. During summer we still warn our children
to stay out of the sun during midday when the sun is at its hottest - it has the signification of mars then, too
hot.
Similarly the 10th house is what we are known for, what we send out to the world. Mars has some sharedsignification here as the 10th and Mars both relate to what we act upon what we DO! This stretches so far thatthe 10th is literally the house of what we do, the house of our career. But mars is first and fore most the planetof doing - more than any other.
Venus is a bit tougher but I suspect it is to do with the fact that Venus is essentially seen as a lustful/sinfulplanet - we get the idea of Lucifer the 'morning star' associations with Venus. We also have venereal disease
and so the idea of secrets as well as our self undoing may be tangentially related to Venus. Originally the 12th
was the place of 'bad daimon' and colloquially referred to as the house of diseases, so the idea of venus, one of
the most common ways where self undoing (another 12th house idea) coupled with secrets (12th house) was
the venereal kind!
It's not so clear cut. I'd be pretty confident about Mars with the 10th but venus with the 12th is a bit tougher.
Another very possible idea here goes back to the idea of the morning star. Really Venus is only visible at sun
rise or at sun set, so can only be seen either in the 1st or 7th houses. With the Moon already associated withthe 7th perhaps it makes sense to put the morning star where it shoudl be - the morning.
We might also confer some minor benefice to the 12th house in that at this point the Sun, which had been outof sect (ie beneath the earth) suddenly comes up to the surface in the 12th and we have a new day.
I might be wrong on all of these, but just to throw out some ideas to chew over.
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TheRealPhoebe

Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #19 - on: 27.09.2012 at 15:21 [UT+1] »The Spanish might have the better idea with the 10H - SIESTA!
Who were the old-timey Spanish astrologers then?
With the 12H Venus and the venereal diseases - a pox on your house, sirrah! - there is the 1H 'joy' of Mercury,with the use of mercury as the earliest known treatment for syphilis. (or syphilization)

Could this be the real Montezuema's Revenge?

OMG! Will the end of the Mayan calendar this year see all of us afflictedwith the clap?

Syphilis first made its impact in Western Europe in the 1490s, possibly brought back by Christopher
Columbus’ sailors.
http://www.rpharms.com/museum-pdfs/f-syphilis.pdf
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EnlilMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #20 - on: 27.09.2012 at 15:49 [UT+1] »Quote from TheRealPhoebe on 27.09.2012 at 14:45 [UT+1]:
The below list (quickly) sourced fromhttp://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2063&start=0&sid=ec8adc577 1cfef6bb4ee562e284e946b and do read
the whole thread

Posts: 1210
Gender:CHALDEAN NATURAL RULERS OF HOUSES
1st H: Saturn, the planet that gives structure is well suited for 1st H as 1st H governs body of native.
2nd H: Jupiter, the greater benefic, universal sigfinicator of substance/money/finance, also suitable to govern 2nd H as 2nd H = moveable
possesions, money, substance...
3rd H: Mars also is suitable to govern 3rd house - house of siblings as Mars is universal significator of siblings, Mars (warrior planet)governs brothers as it is your brothers that are supposed to fight (martial) your enemies with you
4th H: Sun, also is suitable to govern 4th house (parents esp. father and sun is universal significator of father).
5th H: Venus, why of course! the house of pleasures and Venus!
6th H: Mercury, Mercury and servants and maids and messengers or the ones who we send to do errands...
7th H: Moon, moon = public, other people, marriage=7th H
8th H: Saturn ohh! the old man, universal significator of death = 8th H
9th H: Jupiter = religion, wisdom, long trips = 9th house
10th H: Mars eeeh...I am stumped unless career also means hard work!
11th H: Sun, good spirit, friends, 11th H
12th H: Venus Venus??? natural ruler of 12th Ohh dear!!! don't know how to relate 12th to Venus
author: astrojin Fri Nov 24 2006

Back to the drawing-board for me!

Funny Astrology Quote of the Century:: There's a lot more bad mojo in the 12th house then just lust. ~ MarkF

But also keep in mind that the above list doesn't really factor into actual technique. The older astrologers loved
those kinds of lists, but didn't always use all of them in day to day practice.
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Dawn Cerise

Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #21 - on: 27.09.2012 at 16:35 [UT+1] »Good Morning, Paul, Phoebe& All,

Phoebe, brilliant & so very helpful that reply #15! Thank you.
Paul, Thank you for the clarification& re-education, always helpful!
quoting:Aries & Scorpio ruled by Mars also ruling the 1st & 8th houses " Actually, traditionally, the traditional
Posts: 1824
Gender:chart rulerships only extend to the signs, not to the houses. So yes Mars rules Scorpio and Mars, but not the
1st and 8th house. This is actually a modern invention of the very late 19th century, early 20th century.
I will be brushing back up on my Chaldean Order soon
Off to get a Texas license finally...
Love,
DawnCerise

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #22 - on: 27.09.2012 at 19:24 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 11:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 10:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 09:59 [UT+1]:
Thank you. A bit confusing when I get the question that the zodiac doesn't correlate with theastronomy..Another thing, how about those astronomers who say that the sun is mostly incWell the zodiac doesn't correlate with astronomy is very vague. What part of astronomy?
Normally this argument is flawed right from the outset because an astronomer means something else than an astrologer
when we use the technical term "Gemini" - and it IS a technical term.

For an astronomer they mean that portion of the sky defined based on a star
constellation called Gemini.
For an astrologer they mean the 30 degree arc segment along the ecliptic beginningfrom the 60th degree of the ecliptic.
The two are not the same. In short astronomers mean the constellations whilst astrologers DO NOT. They mean a 30
segment. The constellations are not equal, the zodiac signs are. The zodiac signs are therefore not the same as the zodiac
constellations.
Astronomers the world over seem to not understand that point.

So what is a relatively easy and understandable way to explain them the difference of the 2?

Paul, Jenny and others have explained it pretty well, let me also attempt to explain this to you.
First, from the sidereal astrology perspective, which I think is easier to correlate with astronomy. Lets take theconstellation of Gemini for example. You might be able to identify it if it is visible in the night sky. If you know
all the stars in Gemini, you might even be able to identify "the wanderers" (which are nothing but the planets)
inside the constellation. If you are trained enough, the time (morning/evening), brightness and color of theplanet should be enough for you to identify what it is exactly. Like, you know its Venus if it is very bright, bluein color and the time is morning or evening. In this way you can know that in the current sidereal chart, Venus
is transiting Gemini. That is well, but not good enough because the planet might be in between Gemini andCancer. So each region in the zodiac has to be mathematically defined so that there is no doubt where theplanet lies in. There are many ways to do this, but one of the popular means is to take the bright star Spica as
0o Libra. And then give 30o to each of the 12 signs, making it a complete zodiacal circle of 360o. The ease of
the sidereal system is that it remains the same throughout the ages. You can always point to the astronomical
constellation of Gemini and say that sidereal Gemini lies there. This applies to all the wanderers - the visible
bodies like inner planets and the moon and the invisible bodies like the asteroids and the outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto.
For the tropical astrology, which most of us use; it is based on the seasons, not on the visible stars orconstellations. So the constellation of Gemini is not the zodiacal area where tropical Gemini lies. In fact it
cannot be said without the current time where exactly does the tropical Gemini lie. During the time astrology
was just being developed, around 290 AD, the sidereal and tropical zodiacs coincided. Which means at thattime, looking at the constellation of Gemini, you could say that was tropical Gemini too. Now, due to thephenomenon called the precession of equinoxes, the region where tropical Gemini lies has moved around23.86o from the constellation of Gemini towards the constellation of Taurus. And it is still moving at the rate of
1o every 71.6 years.
So it can be a bit tricky to explain an astronomer the regions occupied by tropical signs. The easiest way would
be to completely forget about the star constellations first. Then show him/her a point in the zodiac at which
when occupied by the Sun becomes the Vernal Equinox (Equal Day and Night). Also the path of the sun in thesky that day will be directly from the east to the west making a full semi-circle and passing through the zenith(the point directly above your head). That exact point you can say as the 0o Aries. And then go on dividing thezodiac in 30o for each of the 12 signs to complete a full circle.
Tropical zodiac has been defined in such a way that the seasons retain their correspondence with the dates.
When sun enters Tropical Cancer it will always be the hottest and longest day. When sun enters Tropical
Capricorn will always be cold and so on. The downside is that you can no longer correlate it with theconstellations. Sidereal zodiac has one-to-one correlation with the constellations but the downside is that it
doesn't match with the seasons. You can take a telescope, go out during the night and construct a portion ofyour sidereal zodiac by making observations. That cannot be done for the tropical zodiac (unless you know oneof the Equinoxes or Solstices).
Hope I make you clear on some points.
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #23 - on: 27.09.2012 at 19:59 [UT+1] »Quote from bthapa on 27.09.2012 at 19:24 [UT+1]:
So it can be a bit tricky to explain an astronomer the regions occupied by tropical signs. The easiest way would be to completely forget
about the star constellations first. Then show him/her a point in the zodiac at which when occupied by the Sun becomes the Vernal Equinox(Equal Day and Night). Also the path of the sun in the sky that day will be directly from the east to the west making a full semi-circle andpassing through the zenith (the point directly above your head). That exact point you can say as the 0o Aries. And then go on dividing thezodiac in 30o for each of the 12 signs to complete a full circle.
Tropical zodiac has been defined in such a way that the seasons retain their correspondence with the dates. When sun enters Tropical
Cancer it will always be the hottest and longest day. When sun enters Tropical Capricorn will always be cold and so on. The downside isthat you can no longer correlate it with the constellations. Sidereal zodiac has one-to-one correlation with the constellations but thedownside is that it doesn't match with the seasons. You can take a telescope, go out during the night and construct a portion of yoursidereal zodiac by making observations. That cannot be done for the tropical zodiac (unless you know one of the Equinoxes or Solstices).
Hope I make you clear on some points.

I would like to refer you again to the wiki link I gave earlier (reply#11) - there is absolutely no reason or needto explain to an astronomer the tropical or sidereal zodiac not aligning with the constellations because they use
both as needed for different celestial coordinate systems - notice in the table of coordinate systems both the
Equatorial and Ecliptic coordinate systems can be set to geocentric positions and are calculated from the vernal
equinox (or any zero point along the eliptic). If rectangular coordinates are used (and a 360 degree eliptic) thesystem is the same as a tropical "zodiac" and in most systems "zodiacal positions - named
abcdefghijkl" or degree separations 30, 60, 90, 120, etc, etc are used. In fact astronomers use"zodiacal" coordinates to describe the position of the constellations. A Euclidian chart is seldom used by modern
astronomers but when done it is the same as a astrological chart ( though often with east /west reversed).
Also, recheck reply#17
bthapa, all the points you have made are valid to be sure.
and I'm sure astronomers could learn alot about astrology if they were so inclined, but the premise of thezodiacal positions is something that astronomers know and sorry to say many astrologers seem to have little
knowledge about.
This is one reason that astronomers do not take astrologers seriously .... astrology may be an art but there is ascience behind it.
PhoenixNoodleSoup
here is an example of a rectangular celestial coordinate chart (sorry it is not very clear because it is dark)
compare it to the 3-dimensional chart available from AstroDienst under the special charts selection
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?&lang=e&gm=a2&nhor=1&btyp=53&
amp;sday=27&smon=9&syr=2012&hsy=0&rs=0
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Celestial20Coordinates.gif

IP Loggedbthapa
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #24 - on: 27.09.2012 at 20:34 [UT+1] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 27.09.2012 at 19:59 [UT+1]:
Quote from bthapa on 27.09.2012 at 19:24 [UT+1]:
So it can be a bit tricky to explain an astronomer the regions occupied by tropical signs. The easiest way would be tocompletely forget about the star constellations first. Then show him/her a point in the zodiac at which when occupied by
the Sun becomes the Vernal Equinox (Equal Day and Night). Also the path of the sun in the sky that day will be directlyfrom the east to the west making a full semi-circle and passing through the zenith (the point directly above your head).
That exact point you can say as the 0o Aries. And then go on dividing the zodiac in 30o for each of the 12 signs tocomplete a full circle.
Tropical zodiac has been defined in such a way that the seasons retain their correspondence with the dates. When sun
enters Tropical Cancer it will always be the hottest and longest day. When sun enters Tropical Capricorn will always be coldand so on. The downside is that you can no longer correlate it with the constellations. Sidereal zodiac has one-to-one
correlation with the constellations but the downside is that it doesn't match with the seasons. You can take a telescope, goout during the night and construct a portion of your sidereal zodiac by making observations. That cannot be done for thetropical zodiac (unless you know one of the Equinoxes or Solstices).
Hope I make you clear on some points.

I would like to refer you again to the wiki link I gave earlier - there is absolutely no reason or need to explain to an astronomer thetropical or sidereal zodiac not aligning with the zodiac because they use both as needed for different celestial coordinate systems - noticein the table of coordinate systems both the Equatorial and Ecliptic coordinate systems can be set to geocentric positions and are calculated
from the vernal equinox. If rectangular coordinates are used (and a 360 degree eliptic) the system is the same as a tropical "zodiac" andin most systems "zodiacal positions - named

abcdefghijkl" or degree separations 30, 60, 90, 120, etc, etc are used. Infact astronomers use "zodiacal" coordinates to describe the position of the constellations.
bthapa, all the points you have made are valid to be sure.
and I'm sure astronomers could learn alot about astrology if they were so inclined, but the premise of the zodiacal positions is somethingthat astronomers know and sorry to say many astrologers seem to have little knowledge about.
This is one reason that astronomers do not take astrologers seriously .... astrology may be an art but there is a science behind it.
PhoenixNoodleSoup
here is an example of a rectangular celestial coordinate chart (sorry it is not very clear because it is dark) compare it to the 3-dimensional
chart available from AstroDienst under the special charts selection
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?&lang=e&gm=a2&nhor=1&btyp=53&
amp;sday=27&smon=9&syr=2012&hsy=0&rs=0

You're right. We were taught about precession of the equinoxes, sidereal and tropical systems, Ptolemy andCopernicus solar system models in class 7-8 Astronomy, so I can understand what "pro" Astronomers can belike. Also I fully agree with the fact that most astrologers are unaware of these simple concepts. Most aredeluded and believe what they want to. Example, the cause of precession of the equinoxes, the alien inventionof astrology, the genetic astrology, only to name a few
And on the top of that we as astrologers like to talkof quantum mechanics and string theory! Even if we didn't do these and really understood these concepts likethe physicists do, I see a lot of other reasons why astrologers are not taken seriously. It is because we don't
follow the "Scientific Method". Whether we should do it is a completely different question though.
Actually I was thinking of a scenario where an astronomer and an astrologer (as husband and wife maybe)

are taking a lonely walk during the night, and looking at the sky the husband astronomer asks his wife, soshow me where Gemini lies? And she happens to be a tropical astrologer. Without a little knowledge ofastronomy she surely won't be able to do this properly!
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bthapaEx Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #25 - on: 27.09.2012 at 20:58 [UT+1] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 27.09.2012 at 19:59 [UT+1]:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?&lang=e&gm=a2&nhor=1&btyp=53&
amp;sday=27&smon=9&syr=2012&hsy=0&rs=0

This chart is very beautiful, never seen it that way. Its as if a mathematician has taken up astrology and drawn
his first chart.
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PhoenixNoodleSoupRe: Ptolemaic system
Ex Member« Reply #26 - on: 27.09.2012 at 21:08 [UT+1] »In reply to bthapa reply#24
Myself, I do not believe the two need be conflated or joined or otherwise legitmize each other - you can beaware of the "Way" and still recognize the "myriad things". Astrology and Science need not be "combined".
Basic science is good science and need not be overly complex or technical. (And basic astrology is good
astrology too IMO)
So what shall we say about the diagram that Curiosa Nervosa posted in her OP?
Yes it is from a geocentric position (astronomicaly acceptable)
And the exposition by _Paul_ and others about the chaldean order was educational to all
And _Paul_s ,-Jenny-s and your explanation of the difference between the Zodiacs and constellations I'm surehelpful.
What is wrong with the line up in the diagram (a gross oversimplification that astronomer and astrologer alikeshould recognize immediately) all the above considerations aside?
If it is supposed to be a representation of the celestial spheres (Ptolmaic) it is incorrect. (hard to reconcile withastrology or astronomy)
Can Mercury be opposite Sun?
Can Venus be square Sun?
Sorry probably not important
PNS
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #27 - on: 27.09.2012 at 21:16 [UT+1] »Quote from bthapa on 27.09.2012 at 20:58 [UT+1]:
Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 27.09.2012 at 19:59 [UT+1]:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?&lang=e&gm=a2&nhor=1&btyp=53&
amp;sday=27&smon=9&syr=2012&hsy=0&rs=0

This chart is very beautiful, never seen it that way. Its as if a mathematician has taken up astrology and drawn his first chart.

If you follow the instructions - cutting and taping the chart- it is very cool; I was delighted when Alois inpassing pointed out it was among the chart selections. It is an astronomical rectangular chart. I will try to finda navigation chart for comparison to a "regular" astrology chart.
PNS
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #28 - on: 27.09.2012 at 21:35 [UT+1] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 27.09.2012 at 19:59 [UT+1]:
I would like to refer you again to the wiki link I gave earlier (reply#11) - there is absolutely no reason or need to explain to an
astronomer the tropical or sidereal zodiac not aligning with the constellations because they use both as needed for different celestialcoordinate systems - notice in the table of coordinate systems both the Equatorial and Ecliptic coordinate systems can be set to geocentric
positions and are calculated from the vernal equinox (or any zero point along the eliptic).

Whilst I agree with the point you're making, and I agree with what you say, in theory, I would put a question
mark over it in practice. The reason being, as far as I'm aware (certainly in my experience),
astronomers/mathematicians when using the ecliptic coordinate system do not talk in terms of zodiac signs,
they simply refer to degrees. My Moon is not, for example, at 29 Aquarius, but instead at -31 degrees, or, at
329 degrees if you prefer. So, in practice, a working astronomer may not realise that when we say 29 Aquarius,
what we really mean is -31 degrees of ecliptpic longitude.
I think any astronomer/scientist might be forgiven then for assuming an astrologer referring to Aquarius isreferring to a constellation, rather than a of celestical equatorial arc.
A minor point perhaps, but one worth considering all the same maybe.
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IP Loggedbthapa

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #29 - on: 27.09.2012 at 21:38 [UT+1] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 27.09.2012 at 21:08 [UT+1]:
In reply to bthapa reply#24
Myself, I do not believe the two need be conflated or combined or legitmize each other - you can be aware of the "Way" and stillrecognize the "myriad things". Astrology and Science need not be "combined". Basic science is good science and need not be overly
complex or technical. (And basic astrology is good astrology too IMO)
So what shall we say about the diagram that Curiosa Nervosa posted in her OP?
Yes it is from a geocentric position (astronomicaly acceptable)
And the exposition by _Paul_ and others about the chaldean order was educational to all
And _Paul_s ,-Jenny-s and your explanation of the difference between the Zodiacs and constellations I'm sure helpful.
What is wrong with the line up in the diagram (a gross oversimplification that astronomer and astrologer alike should recognize
immediately) all the above considerations aside?
If it is supposed to be a representation of the celestial spheres (Ptolmaic) it is incorrect. (hard to reconcile with astronomy)
Can Mercury be opposite Sun?
Can Venus be square Sun?
Sorry probably not importantPNS

I think they are very important indeed. And yes, geocentric is astronomically as much agreeable as heliocentric- depends upon the frame of reference. The development of astronomy has been greatly influenced byPtolemaic model. I'm not sure what Ptolemy exactly proposed, but I vaguely remember that Ptolemy put earth
in the center and all the planets, the moon and the sun rotating around it in circles. Though not as simple aswhat Curiosa has put in the OP (due to its obvious observational problems, which you've showed already).
Ptolemy said that the the heavenly bodies revolve around a hypothetical point in circles and that point rotatesaround the earth in a circle. This is called epicycle, as shown in the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle
It probably explains the apparent anomalies in motion while maintaining the perfectness of a circle (Greeks
thought circle was a perfect shape and all the heavenly bodies move in perfect motion as opposed to theearthly bodies). This solution was not elegant though, and Copernicus proposed a much elegant heliocentricmodel.
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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #30 - on: 27.09.2012 at 21:44 [UT+1] »Quote from bthapa on 27.09.2012 at 21:38 [UT+1]:
It probably explains the apparent anomalies in motion while maintaining the perfectness of a circle (Greeks thought circle was a perfectshape and all the heavenly bodies move in perfect motion as opposed to the earthly bodies). This solution was not elegant though, andCopernicus proposed a much elegant heliocentric model.

What I love about this example is that it highlights some of the problems with the Greeks - they were lovers oflogic, but almost too much so. They would often be critical of reliance on empirical observation - after all one
can think they've seen what they've not, or draw false conclusions based on what they've seen. Whereas thepurely logical and rational mindset will, of course, intuit by good reasoning the truth of a matter without
reliance upon potentially hazardous observations.
Of course, things were different in ancient babylon which was far more empirical than the Greeks, and also to
the modern scientist who is also empirical. But what this demonstrates is, perhaps, a curious flaw in the greek
model of thought which includes its enormous influence on astrology - the theory or logic was more important
than whether someone actually observed whether it worked.
Tragically, there were a couple of important Greek mathematicians who actually put forth an elegant system
which nicely explained some of the problems with their maths - a heliocentric universe, some even included
elliptical orbits.
Their findings were not taken seriously. Everyone knows that the circle is the perfect shape, and The Creator,
being perfect himself, would only create spheres of equal perfection degrading gradually as it emanates toward
the imperfect and impoverished earth, at its center. Anything else would have no logical basis within thisframework, and so the theory was never taken seriously.
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #31 - on: 27.09.2012 at 21:49 [UT+1] »Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 21:35 [UT+1]:
Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 27.09.2012 at 19:59 [UT+1]:
I would like to refer you again to the wiki link I gave earlier (reply#11) - there is absolutely no reason or need to explain
to an astronomer the tropical or sidereal zodiac not aligning with the constellations because they use both as needed for
different celestial coordinate systems - notice in the table of coordinate systems both the Equatorial and Ecliptic coordinate
systems can be set to geocentric positions and are calculated from the vernal equinox (or any zero point along the eliptic).

Whilst I agree with the point you're making, and I agree with what you say, in theory, I would put a question mark over it in practice. The
reason being, as far as I'm aware (certainly in my experience), astronomers/mathematicians when using the ecliptic coordinate system do
not talk in terms of zodiac signs, they simply refer to degrees. My Moon is not, for example, at 29 Aquarius, but instead at -31 degrees,or, at 329 degrees if you prefer. So, in practice, a working astronomer may not realise that when we say 29 Aquarius, what we really meanis -31 degrees of ecliptpic longitude.

I think any astronomer/scientist might be forgiven then for assuming an astrologer referring toAquarius is referring to a constellation, rather than a of celestical equatorial arc.
A minor point perhaps, but one worth considering all the same maybe.

Paul, you're maybe right, I haven't been on either side of a conversation like that in a very long time. - I'mwondering if either would be qualified to call themselves astronomers or astrologers if they were so set in theiropinions.
Really, thinking about it a little more, I'd think that any "astronomer" claiming to not understand what an"astrologer" was talking about referring to Aquarius would just be trying to push the astrologers buttons trying
to find that weak link in the "astrologer" (not) knowing what they are talking about!

Quote from bthapa on 27.09.2012 at 20:34 [UT+1]:
Actually I was thinking of a scenario where an astronomer and an astrologer (as husband and wife maybe) are taking a lonely walkduring the night, and looking at the sky the husband astronomer asks his wife, so show me where Gemini lies? And she happens to be atropical astrologer. Without a little knowledge of astronomy she surely won't be able to do this properly!

Or, in bthapas scenario (roles interchangable), maybe the astronomer just Loves to hear the astrologers VoicePNS
and this on the Ptolemaic system - Celestial Spheres - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_spheres
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1939_NY_World_Fair_Celestial_Sphere.jpg« Last Edit: 28.09.2012 at 11:30 [UT+1] by u212960811 »IP Logged

TheRealPhoebe
Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #32 - on: 28.09.2012 at 16:40 [UT+1] »Sometimes I imagine Ptolemy being re-incarnated and saying:"You're not still using this?!! I just knocked it together one afternoon"'.
~ Lener Gize 2.4.2008

sourced from http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1207080580

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EnigmeMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #33 - on: 28.09.2012 at 18:02 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 27.09.2012 at 15:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from TheRealPhoebe on 27.09.2012 at 14:45 [UT+1]:
The below list (quickly) sourced fromhttp://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2063&start=0&sid=ec8adc577 1cfef6bb4ee562e284e946b
and do read the whole thread
CHALDEAN NATURAL RULERS OF HOUSES
1st H: Saturn, the planet that gives structure is well suited for 1st H as 1st H governs body of native.

Posts: 5489

2nd H: Jupiter, the greater benefic, universal sigfinicator of substance/money/finance, also suitable to govern 2nd H as 2nd
H = moveable possesions, money, substance...
3rd H: Mars also is suitable to govern 3rd house - house of siblings as Mars is universal significator of siblings, Mars
(warrior planet) governs brothers as it is your brothers that are supposed to fight (martial) your enemies with you
4th H: Sun, also is suitable to govern 4th house (parents esp. father and sun is universal significator of father).
5th H: Venus, why of course! the house of pleasures and Venus!
6th H: Mercury, Mercury and servants and maids and messengers or the ones who we send to do errands...
7th H: Moon, moon = public, other people, marriage=7th H
8th H: Saturn ohh! the old man, universal significator of death = 8th H
9th H: Jupiter = religion, wisdom, long trips = 9th house
10th H: Mars eeeh...I am stumped unless career also means hard work!
11th H: Sun, good spirit, friends, 11th H
12th H: Venus Venus??? natural ruler of 12th Ohh dear!!! don't know how to relate 12th to Venus
author: astrojin Fri Nov 24 2006

Back to the drawing-board for me!

Funny Astrology Quote of the Century:: There's a lot more bad mojo in the 12th house then just lust. ~ MarkF

But also keep in mind that the above list doesn't really factor into actual technique. The older astrologers loved those kinds of lists, but
didn't always use all of them in day to day practice.

I see Venus and 12th quite easily... look at how many people have committed suicide as a result of Love/Lust...
Romeo and Juliet bespeaks of this Longing Aching Love and their Undoing. Addiction which is a Lust for theDrug, Gambling or such is also another form of self unravelling. The 12th is the Veil or our deepest self, thepreborn state, and that part of ourselves that we do not see especially in regard to Defense Mechanisms andbodily actions that we do but we are not aware of. We are most often our own worst enemy... thus Hidden
Enemies.. and of course the Paranoia producing Hidden Enemies of those who work against us behind our backs
whilest playing the friend to our faces.. if a person becomes too wrapped up in this that Paranoia can
Destroy~a...
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EnigmeMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #34 - on: 28.09.2012 at 18:07 [UT+1] »Fascinating debates and I am thinking of Ancient and more recent Mariners using the Fixed star Sirius or North
Star to guide them across the seas... my uncle (Naval Captain) would treat me to showing me how to use the
Sextant.. certainly Archaeic but he firmly believed in understanding how to do something the Old School was
before learning the new way.

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Curiosa Nervosa

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #35 - on: 29.09.2012 at 03:50 [UT+1] »Quote from bthapa on 27.09.2012 at 19:24 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 11:15 [UT+1]:
Quote from _Paul_ on 27.09.2012 at 10:40 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 27.09.2012 at 09:59 [UT+1]:

Posts: 4365

Thank you. A bit confusing when I get the question that the zodiac doesn't correlate with theastronomy..Another thing, how about those astronomers who say that the sun is mostly incWell the zodiac doesn't correlate with astronomy is very vague. What part of astronomy?
Normally this argument is flawed right from the outset because an astronomer means something else thanan astrologer when we use the technical term "Gemini" - and it IS a technical term.

For an astronomer they mean that portion of the sky defined based on a star
constellation called Gemini.
For an astrologer they mean the 30 degree arc segment along the ecliptic
beginning from the 60th degree of the ecliptic.
The two are not the same. In short astronomers mean the constellations whilst astrologers DO NOT. Theymean a 30 segment. The constellations are not equal, the zodiac signs are. The zodiac signs are therefore
not the same as the zodiac constellations.
Astronomers the world over seem to not understand that point.

So what is a relatively easy and understandable way to explain them the difference of the 2?

Paul, Jenny and others have explained it pretty well, let me also attempt to explain this to you.
First, from the sidereal astrology perspective, which I think is easier to correlate with astronomy. Lets take the constellation of Gemini forexample. You might be able to identify it if it is visible in the night sky. If you know all the stars in Gemini, you might even be able toidentify "the wanderers" (which are nothing but the planets) inside the constellation. If you are trained enough, the time(morning/evening), brightness and color of the planet should be enough for you to identify what it is exactly. Like, you know its Venus if
it is very bright, blue in color and the time is morning or evening. In this way you can know that in the current sidereal chart, Venus istransiting Gemini. That is well, but not good enough because the planet might be in between Gemini and Cancer. So each region in thezodiac has to be mathematically defined so that there is no doubt where the planet lies in. There are many ways to do this, but one of the
popular means is to take the bright star Spica as 0o Libra. And then give 30o to each of the 12 signs, making it a complete zodiacal circleof 360o . The ease of the sidereal system is that it remains the same throughout the ages. You can always point to the astronomical
constellation of Gemini and say that sidereal Gemini lies there. This applies to all the wanderers - the visible bodies like inner planets andthe moon and the invisible bodies like the asteroids and the outer planets - Uranus, Neptune and Pluto.
For the tropical astrology, which most of us use; it is based on the seasons, not on the visible stars or constellations. So the constellationof Gemini is not the zodiacal area where tropical Gemini lies. In fact it cannot be said without the current time where exactly does thetropical Gemini lie. During the time astrology was just being developed, around 290 AD, the sidereal and tropical zodiacs coincided. Whichmeans at that time, looking at the constellation of Gemini, you could say that was tropical Gemini too. Now, due to the phenomenon
called the precession of equinoxes, the region where tropical Gemini lies has moved around 23.86o from the constellation of Geminiotowards the constellation of Taurus. And it is still moving at the rate of 1 every 71.6 years.
So it can be a bit tricky to explain an astronomer the regions occupied by tropical signs. The easiest way would be to completely forget
about the star constellations first. Then show him/her a point in the zodiac at which when occupied by the Sun becomes the Vernal Equinox(Equal Day and Night). Also the path of the sun in the sky that day will be directly from the east to the west making a full semi-circle andpassing through the zenith (the point directly above your head). That exact point you can say as the 0o Aries. And then go on dividing thezodiac in 30o for each of the 12 signs to complete a full circle.
Tropical zodiac has been defined in such a way that the seasons retain their correspondence with the dates. When sun enters Tropical
Cancer it will always be the hottest and longest day. When sun enters Tropical Capricorn will always be cold and so on. The downside isthat you can no longer correlate it with the constellations. Sidereal zodiac has one-to-one correlation with the constellations but thedownside is that it doesn't match with the seasons. You can take a telescope, go out during the night and construct a portion of yoursidereal zodiac by making observations. That cannot be done for the tropical zodiac (unless you know one of the Equinoxes or Solstices).
Hope I make you clear on some points.

Thank you for clarifying. I have one question. How about that it is still moving at the rate of 1o every 71.6
years. Does that make the system inaccurate with time?
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EnlilMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #36 - on: 29.09.2012 at 04:44 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 03:50 [UT+1]:
Thank you for clarifying. I have one question. How about that it is still moving at the rate of 1o every 71.6 years. Does that make thesystem inaccurate with time?

Posts: 1210
Gender:No it moves with the stars.

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Curiosa Nervosa

Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #37 - on: 29.09.2012 at 15:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 29.09.2012 at 04:44 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 03:50 [UT+1]:
Thank you for clarifying. I have one question. How about that it is still moving at the rate of 1o every 71.6 years. Does
that make the system inaccurate with time?

Posts: 4365
No it moves with the stars.

Could you elaborate..

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EnlilMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #38 - on: 29.09.2012 at 15:39 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 15:14 [UT+1]:
No it moves with the stars.

Posts: 1210
Gender:Could you elaborate.. [/quote]
Basically 0 degrees Aries is marked as a certain star. What that star is depends on which sidereal system you areusing. There's a little argument there.
Anyway 0 degrees Aries is a certain star, so Aries is 30 degrees from that star, then Taurus and so on. As theprecession of the equinox does its thing, the zodiac shifts with it. That's why in sidereal astrology, spring
happens while the Sun is somewhere in Pisces. Eventually it will be in Aquarius.

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Curiosa Nervosa

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #39 - on: 29.09.2012 at 15:50 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 29.09.2012 at 15:39 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 15:14 [UT+1]:
No it moves with the stars.

Posts: 4365

Could you elaborate..

Basically 0 degrees Aries is marked as a certain star. What that star is depends on which sidereal system you
are using. There's a little argument there.
Anyway 0 degrees Aries is a certain star, so Aries is 30 degrees from that star, then Taurus and so on. As theprecession of the equinox does its thing, the zodiac shifts with it. That's why in sidereal astrology, spring
happens while the Sun is somewhere in Pisces. Eventually it will be in Aquarius. [/quote]Thank you. But why do people talk about precessed solar returns..? What does that mean?
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EnlilMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #40 - on: 29.09.2012 at 16:53 [UT+1] »Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 15:50 [UT+1]:
Thank you. But why do people talk about precessed solar returns..? What does that mean?

Posts: 1210
Gender:Basically it calculates how far the planets have moved sidereally, but still using a tropical zodiac. Frankly it's alittle confusing for me.

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #41 - on: 29.09.2012 at 17:38 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 28.09.2012 at 18:02 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 27.09.2012 at 15:49 [UT+1]:
Quote from TheRealPhoebe on 27.09.2012 at 14:45 [UT+1]:
The below list (quickly) sourced fromhttp://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2063&start=0&sid=ec8adc577
1cfef6bb4ee562e284e946b and do read the whole thread

Posts: 189
Gender:CHALDEAN NATURAL RULERS OF HOUSES
1st H: Saturn, the planet that gives structure is well suited for 1st H as 1st H governs body of native.
2nd H: Jupiter, the greater benefic, universal sigfinicator of substance/money/finance, also suitable togovern 2nd H as 2nd H = moveable possesions, money, substance...
3rd H: Mars also is suitable to govern 3rd house - house of siblings as Mars is universal significator of
siblings, Mars (warrior planet) governs brothers as it is your brothers that are supposed to fight (martial)
your enemies with you
4th H: Sun, also is suitable to govern 4th house (parents esp. father and sun is universal significator offather).
5th H: Venus, why of course! the house of pleasures and Venus!
6th H: Mercury, Mercury and servants and maids and messengers or the ones who we send to do errands...
7th H: Moon, moon = public, other people, marriage=7th H
8th H: Saturn ohh! the old man, universal significator of death = 8th H
9th H: Jupiter = religion, wisdom, long trips = 9th house
10th H: Mars eeeh...I am stumped unless career also means hard work!
11th H: Sun, good spirit, friends, 11th H
12th H: Venus Venus??? natural ruler of 12th Ohh dear!!! don't know how to relate 12th to Venus
author: astrojin Fri Nov 24 2006

Back to the drawing-board for me!

Funny Astrology Quote of the Century:: There's a lot more bad mojo in the 12th house then just lust. ~ MarkF

But also keep in mind that the above list doesn't really factor into actual technique. The older astrologers loved those kindsof lists, but didn't always use all of them in day to day practice.

I see Venus and 12th quite easily... look at how many people have committed suicide as a result of Love/Lust... Romeo and Juliet
bespeaks of this Longing Aching Love and their Undoing. Addiction which is a Lust for the Drug, Gambling or such is also another form ofself unravelling. The 12th is the Veil or our deepest self, the preborn state, and that part of ourselves that we do not see especially inregard to Defense Mechanisms and bodily actions that we do but we are not aware of. We are most often our own worst enemy... thus
Hidden Enemies.. and of course the Paranoia producing Hidden Enemies of those who work against us behind our backs whilest playing thefriend to our faces.. if a person becomes too wrapped up in this that Paranoia can Destroy~a...

I agree, and it's interesting to me that 3 of these rulerships correspond, in the natural chart, to signs where theplanet is exalted: Venus in Pisces, Mars in Capricorn, and Mercury in Virgo. I think for me it would make more
sense for all of them to be that way wherever possible, so I would say the Sun rules the 1st, Moon the second,
Jupiter the 4th, Saturn the 7th, etc.
M
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PhoenixNoodleSoupRe: Ptolemaic system
Ex Member« Reply #42 - on: 29.09.2012 at 18:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Enlil on 29.09.2012 at 16:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 15:50 [UT+1]:
Thank you. But why do people talk about precessed solar returns..? What does that mean?

Basically it calculates how far the planets have moved sidereally, but still using a tropical zodiac. Frankly it's a little confusing for me.

sidereal and tropical are two different means of determining celestial coordinates. Precession is the difference
between the two.
I feel I have to say something here but I want to give a big qualifier:I have been first intrigued -now impressed with what SSML , SteveS and others have presented regarding
precessed returns charts and am amazed with the value of its astrological symbolism But if this thread is
examining the difference of Ptolemaic and modern astronomy the theoretical (astronomical) framework forprecession correction is weak.
"5. Do you offer precession correction in transits or solar return charts?
No we don't. Because we do not consider the method logical and consistent in itself.
Tropical astrology uses a frame of reference which moves with the rhythm of the Sun-Moon-Earth system. The
technique of "precession correction" breaks this system trying to introduce a notion of "natal birth marks inabsolute space". This is false on several levels:
The reference frame it introduces is not absolute, it translates and rotates with the (fast) movement of thesolar system within the galaxis. A transiting planet does never return to the point in absolute space where it
once was.
The concept of "return charts" and of transits altogether is - on a deeper level - a symbolic concept rather
than a physical concept. It should therefore be applied in a consistent symbolic system and not in aninconsistent potpourri of systems.
If you want to get around precession, we recommend to do "sidereal" astrology with one of its unprecessedreference frames. We don't think it makes sense to mix incompatible systems. "( the above quoted from here http://www.astro.com/faq/fq_fh_methods_e.htm
my highlights)
I don't know that it would be necessary to have a better astronomical theory of precession correction -It seems
to work well without one ! (as do many astrological techniques) I look at it this way -which I hope mostastrologers can appreciate- celestial synchonicity is as much a reality for the blissfully unaware as theenlightened. Astrology may have more to do with symbolism than anything else.
PNS
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Ed Falis

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #43 - on: 29.09.2012 at 20:27 [UT+1] »I also consider this a symbolic issue. The real question is how do you compare positions of distinct events?
For a given coordinate system within which you might compare positions (ecliptic, equatorial, house/terrestrial,etc), you basically have two choices:
1. Reference the positions for one event in the instantaneous frame of the other.
This is what is done when using a precession adjustment.
2. Equate the reference frames of the two events, as though they were the same.
This is what is done when comparing tropical zodiacal positions, or when using mundo primary directions.
I suspect both are valid approaches. What the difference in their interpretation should be, I still have no idea.
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EnlilMember

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #44 - on: 30.09.2012 at 02:01 [UT+1] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 29.09.2012 at 18:12 [UT+1]:
Quote from Enlil on 29.09.2012 at 16:53 [UT+1]:
Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 15:50 [UT+1]:
Thank you. But why do people talk about precessed solar returns..? What does that mean?

Posts: 1210
Gender:Basically it calculates how far the planets have moved sidereally, but still using a tropical zodiac. Frankly it's a little
confusing for me.

sidereal and tropical are two different means of determining celestial coordinates. Precession is the difference between the two.

I admit I cobbled that from Solar Fire's definition:"It is possible to apply two types of special options to the calculation of the progressed or directed chart. If thePrecessed option is checked, then the calculation of the chart will be done according to how far the planets have
moved on the Sidereal zodiac, rather than the Tropical zodiac. However, the resulting chart will be still becalculated for the Tropical Zodiac. Note that if the base chart which you are using already has a Sidereal zodiac,then this option will have no effect, and the resulting chart will have a Sidereal zodiac. For each year of life,
about 50 seconds of arc will be added to the return planet’s longitude, thus allowing for the precession of theequinoxes. If the Converse option is checked, then the calculation of the progressed or directed chart will bedone backwards in time from the time of the base chart instead of forwards."
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PhoenixNoodleSoup

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #45 - on: 30.09.2012 at 02:25 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 29.09.2012 at 20:27 [UT+1]:
I also consider this a symbolic issue. The real question is how do you compare positions of distinct events? For a given coordinate system
within which you might compare positions (ecliptic, equatorial, house/terrestrial, etc), you basically have two choices:
1. Reference the positions for one event in the instantaneous frame of the other.
This is what is done when using a precession adjustment.
2. Equate the reference frames of the two events, as though they were the same.
This is what is done when comparing tropical zodiacal positions, or when using mundo primary directions.
I suspect both are valid approaches. What the difference in their interpretation should be, I still have no idea.

‫اختالف الرأي ال يقسد للود قضية‬Which I've been told means "Our debates should not ruin our friendship"
Vive les Differences!
PhoenixNoodleSoup
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SunSagMoonLib
Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #46 - on: 30.09.2012 at 02:56 [UT+1] »Quote:The technique of "precession correction" breaks this system trying to introduce a notion of "natal birth marks in absolute space".

A "precession-corrected" or more accurately "precession-expunged" chart is technically a sidereal chart because
the positions become ostensibly fixed relative to the stars. However sidereal zodiacs are no longer measured
from stars, but via an ayanamsa or arc along the ecliptic from the Vernal equinox, so they should all nutate
because they are fixed to the ecliptic. So how are all the various sidereal systems not now defined by anotion of "natal birth marks in absolute space"?
Therefore it seems to me that a precession-expunged chart should be no different than using any of the manyother sidereal zodiacs if done properly. But it is more personal. It is simply using the birth date as thefiducial rather than some other date from the past; therefore removing precession from a natal chart is likecreating a personal version of the zodiac for the birth moment, a frozen tropical zodiac based on the tropicalecliptic and vernal point of birth.
All the sidereal zodiacs can be viewed as "precession-corrected" or "precession-expunged" charts, and theayanamsa only applies to a longitude measurement, none of them provide the equivalent declinations that
corresponds to the date of the ayanamsa adjustment, they simply use current tropical declinations. So they
all can be seen as mixing two

systems of measurement.

Perhaps it would make more sense if astrodienst was able to make available a (sidereal) zodiac option marked
with "P" that could be used as an alternative to the "S" sidereal zodiac, that enabled those who use"precession-correction" to relate positions back to the tropical zodiac positions of their birth ecliptic, using
their birth time as fiducial. That is a zodiac that starts with the vernal point of their birth. Transits would
then be referred back to the individual's natal positions rather than having the natal positions referredforward in the current tropical zodiac to the transits. Of course I don't really expect that to happen so theoptions are to either use the existing sidereal zodiac(s) or precession correct into the current tropical zodiac
positions.
« Last Edit: 30.09.2012 at 23:05 [UT+1] by afternoon sun »Back to top

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PhoenixNoodleSoup

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #47 - on: 30.09.2012 at 04:00 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 30.09.2012 at 02:56 [UT+1]:
Quote:The technique of "precession correction" breaks this system trying to introduce a notion of "natal birth marks in absolute
space".

Perhaps astrodienst could make available a (sidereal) zodiac option marked with "P" that can be used as an alternative to the "S" sidereal
zodiac, so those who use "precession-correction" can generate a precessed version of the tropical zodiac using their birth time as fiducial.
That is a zodiac that starts with the vernal point of their birth. Transits would then be referred back to the individual's natal positions
rather than having the natal positions referred forward in the current tropical zodiac to the transits.

Hi SSML, what you are suggesting is how I have always calculated a comparison of any two events of"consequence". I like the way you explain the "fiducial" chart (what I used to call the "born" chart) as being inthat moment at once both tropical and sidereal (or at least that's how I understand it) . Precession of theEquinoxes (changes in the Vernal Point) can then be noted (precession-corrected or precession expunged) by
creating an adjusted tropical chart.
Of course the arguement then is that those calculations have already been taken into account for creating the(time based) "regular" tropical chart.
Using the various ayanamsa (and that too calculated in various ways) or comparing sidereal charts based on
Bradley or Lahiri (jyotish) or other sidereal zodiacs was not working for me because each try to establish a
fixed point along the eliptic to reference to, which with true precession, is not fixed.
I do not have Solar Fire; is what you are suggesting the same as what Solar Fire does in their calculations?
and do you think this is a symbolic conceptual format or an astronomically based format?
Kevin / PNS
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PhoenixNoodleSoupRe: Ptolemaic system
Ex Member« Reply #48 - on: 30.09.2012 at 04:23 [UT+1] »SSML can you walk me through the steps you would use to precession "expunge" a chart using the charts
available in AstroDienst ?
Kevin / PNS
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SunSagMoonLib

Ex Member

Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #49 - on: 30.09.2012 at 05:14 [UT+1] »I am about to go out in 10 minutes. So I don't have time now to explain it in simpler terms. Maybe later.

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PhoenixNoodleSoupRe: Ptolemaic system
Ex Member« Reply #50 - on: 30.09.2012 at 05:18 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 30.09.2012 at 05:14 [UT+1]:
I am about to go out in 10 minutes. So I don't have time now to explain it in simpler terms. Maybe later.

Should you have the inclination and opportunity later, I would be gratefulPNS
and the explaination can be as complex as need be

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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #51 - on: 30.09.2012 at 23:18 [UT+1] »Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 30.09.2012 at 04:23 [UT+1]:
SSML can you walk me through the steps you would use to precession "expunge" a chart using the charts available in AstroDienst ?
Kevin / PNS

Kevin I simply do the Solar or Lunar return as a sidereal chart. That gets rid of the precession because
sidereal charts don't precess.. Then I use the time and date generated to make a standard tropical natal
chart.
(That is also what Solar Fire does at least SF produces the same charts.)
It gives the same angular positions as using the Fagan Bradley sidereal zodiac. But of course when you
convert it back into the tropical zodiac the planets all jump forward by the amount of elapsed precession (asyou'll know it is actually the tropical zodiac that has moved backwards while the sidereal positions remain
static).
The point I'm making is all sidereal zodiacs these days appear to be measured in longitude from the vernal
equinox to a fixed point on the ecliptic relating to a date. Using the birthdate as fiducial is no different tousing any date as the start of a sidereal zodiac.
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PhoenixNoodleSoupRe: Ptolemaic system
Ex Member« Reply #52 - on: 01.10.2012 at 01:36 [UT+1] »Quote from SunSagMoonLib on 30.09.2012 at 23:18 [UT+1]:
Quote from PhoenixNoodleSoup on 30.09.2012 at 04:23 [UT+1]:
SSML can you walk me through the steps you would use to precession "expunge" a chart using the charts available in
AstroDienst ?
Kevin / PNS

Kevin I simply do the Solar or Lunar return as a sidereal chart. That gets rid of the precession because sidereal charts don't precess.. Then
I use the time and date generated to make a standard tropical natal chart.
(That is also what Solar Fire does at least SF produces the same charts.)
It gives the same angular positions as using the Fagan Bradley sidereal zodiac. But of course when you convert it back into the tropicalzodiac the planets all jump forward by the amount of elapsed precession (as you'll know it is actually the tropical zodiac that has moved
backwards while the sidereal positions remain static).

The point I'm making is all sidereal zodiacs these days appear to be measured in longitude fromthe vernal equinox to a fixed point on the ecliptic relating to a date. Using the birthdate as
fiducial is no different to using any date as the start of a sidereal zodiac.

Hi SSML
This is why I have come to such a profound appreciation of this technique - it is simple and elegant.
I still have wonderful results with ("regular") tropical returns and transits but this adds a very special
perspective- I encourage everyone to compare an event of importance such as the birth of a child.
What you've said about "standardized" sidereal zodiacs is largely true and the fixing of dates to establish thethe zero point of the zodiac - measured from the current vernal point- seems no better than arbitrary. The
technique you've described allows for being specific without being fixed.

Thank You!
P.S.

Kevin / PNS

Curiosa Nervosa, I hope SSMLs replies have answered this a little better!

Quote from Curiosa Nervosa on 29.09.2012 at 15:50 [UT+1]:
Thank you. But why do people talk about precessed solar returns..? What does that mean?

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SunSagMoonLib

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Re: Ptolemaic system« Reply #53 - on: 01.10.2012 at 04:09 [UT+1] »Quote:
Thank you. But why do people talk about precessed solar returns..? What does that mean?

I think it literally means the opposite of what it should mean. A precessed Solar return literally means astandard tropical return because it is the vernal point (and thus the tropical zodiac) that precesses.
But everyone takes it to mean the "Precession-corrected " Return. Basically just lazy language use.
"Precession-corrected" is probably wrong too even though it suggests making a "correction" to the calculationin order to remove precession. When we remove precession we expunge it and convert the chart into asidereal measurement.
However as most astrologers take "precessed" and "precession-corrected" to mean a Return chart that has had
precession expunged (been done as a sidereal Return and then converted back into the tropical zodiac)
there is little point in quibbling about their literal meaning.
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