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chart rectification? (Read 247 times)

Pierrot Lunaire
Ex Memberchart rectification?
« on: 06.01.2011 at 03:18 [UT] »I got a book for b-day about chart rectification. It looked kind of complicated and there's a sense that you
really can't count on what's said.
Has anyone had any experience with this? There's nothing I'd like more than eventually being able to make itup, somehow, for people not knowing their birth time
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Kannon McAfee

Ex Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #1 - on: 07.01.2011 at 06:28 [UT] »Quote from Pierrot Lunaire on 06.01.2011 at 03:18 [UT]:
I got a book for b-day about chart rectification. It looked kind of complicated and there's a sense that you really can't count on what's
said.
Has anyone had any experience with this? There's nothing I'd like more than eventually being able to make it up, somehow, for people notknowing their birth time

Chart rectification is only possible once you've mastered the fundamentals of astrology and gained much moreinsight from long-term exercise of intuition, study and observation of humans, and much more. Its the real testof astrology and cannot be taught in any single volume. The best information producing the most genuinely
accurate charts in my view is found in the writings and work of master astrologer, John Willner.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #2 - on: 08.01.2011 at 01:13 [UT] »I have been an astrologer for over 30 years and have ever attempted chart rectification. That doesn't mean
you shouldn't study it....but count on it being a VERY long term project...years and much experience to come.
And you need to test yourself from time to time to see if you are finding your way.
LainiePosts: 17033

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Pierrot Lunaire

Ex Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #3 - on: 08.01.2011 at 03:38 [UT] »yeah, it sounds really hard! The idea I was reading was to isolate all critical events in the person's life (usuallybad) and see what hard aspects to nodes/moon those events were closest to, judging by different ASC
possibilities. She suggests using software. Even with this, it's best to have at least a range/idea (hopefully
within the hour)
I'm not sure I feel solid in astro enough to attempt it but it really really fascinates me. Was wondering if
anyone at all on here even had dabbled in it and if so what were their experiences
I'm waiting for the day when it is universally mandatory for each human being to know their birth time
When I do feel solid enough I sure will look up Willner.
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IP LoggedWaybreadMember

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #4 - on: 08.01.2011 at 05:19 [UT] »I dabbled in rectifying my chart (by checking on important dates) before I found my old birth certificate in mymother's papers after she died. I though I had Libra rising. Previously an astrologer guessed from myappearance that I have Leo rising. It turns out, both were wrong! My Libra guess was not out by lots, but
enough to give me a different rising sign (Virgo) and other stuff.
I think the best thing you can do if you don't have and cannot obtain an accurate birth time is:
1. Look and see whether the moon changed sign on the birth date. It changes sign every three days. If it's
your chart or you know the person well, usually you can make an informed guess about the moon sign.
Posts: 14740
Gender:

2. See if this narrows down the rising sign to a choice of one, two, or three. If you have just a couple of rising
signs that fit with that moon sign, somethings you can make a decent guess. But then I would use the whole
sign house method. I don't like it, but it won't give you a false impression of house cusps you don't have.
Check out http://www.astrofaces.com for a large sample of photos of people catalogued by sun, moon,and rising sign.
3. Member Alice McDermott has argued for looking at Uranus transits--do you have a time when somethingout of the ordinary or unexpected happened, for example--consistent with a passage of Uranus from one houseto the next?
But I would suggest being very cautious, because different elements in the chart can create the same
impression. For example, when I thought I had Leo rising, I actually began to dress the part somewhat! Well,
I don't have Leo rising, but with my moon in Leo, obviously my appearance could easily tie into it. You might
think someone has Aquarius rising, for example, when it turns out Uranus is in the first house.
Above all, learn to read charts without houses. It's a lot less satisfying, but it is much better to do it this way
than to have erroneous houses that create a false impression. On the free charts pp. here, if you give the birthtime as "unknown", you get a noon default birth time. Then just recognize that the moon could move 6
degrees either way.
If you canget a better technique, please let us know!

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Pierrot Lunaire

Ex Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #5 - on: 08.01.2011 at 05:45 [UT] »even that, right there, is helpful. How would you say would be a good way about learning to read a chart
without houses? Just sort of... ignore them?
I'm very much into looking a synastry charts, not even neessarily btw couples, but ordinary relationships, and it
happens a lot that I have one person with birth data and one w/o. From what you say, I could maybe find a way
to interpret by making both ppl for a noon chart, and that, in a way, would somehow be 'good enough'...
I like the moon sign thing too... a 'quick and dirty tip' that might work to at least narrow things to a
manageable range
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Isaac Starkman
Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #6 - on: 08.01.2011 at 16:48 [UT] »James Alexander wrote an article on rectification:
http://skywriter.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/getting-the-birth-time-right%e2%80%94p olarissoftware-makes-it-possible/

Posts: 314
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #7 - on: 09.01.2011 at 17:57 [UT] »you said,"yeah, it sounds really hard! The idea I was reading was to isolate all critical events in the person's life (usuallybad) and see what hard aspects to nodes/moon those events were closest to, judging by different ASC
Posts: 17033

possibilities. She suggests using software. Even with this, it's best to have at least a range/idea (hopefully
within the hour)

The problem, you see, is this: you are RELYING on the client to tell you 1) the truth and 2) what the client
perceives as the most important events in his/her life.
These don't have to be notable....really....nor negative. The client's perspective may be 'off.'
What I do when I don't have a birth time:
FIRST: I STRONGLY suggest that the perspective client make all necessary efforts to get his/her birth time.
In the U.S. (and other countries) there are TWO separate birth records. There is the legal record of birth which
has a lot of information on it like... the time of birth,what the occupations of the parents are, how many other children were born to this mother, any children who
are deceased, address of the family, and other info NOT on the BIRTH CERTIFICATE that one receives tovalidate the birth date.
Often you can access this info on the computer by logging on to the state capitol and the 'dept. of birth
records' or 'dept. of vital statistics'....or whatever it may be called in that particular state or country.
You can often just fill out a form on line, pay a fee and get a copy of the birth record in the mail.
HOWEVER; YOU MUST ASK FOR A COPY OF THE BIRTH RECORD 'FOR LEGAL PURPOSES.'
If you ask for a copy of the birth certificate you will just get another copy of the birth certificate.
Assuming you cannot get this information....or you are attemting to do the chart of someone who won't beinterested in getting their birth time,then you can do either of 2 things. You can do an equal house 'solar chart', with the ascendant the same
degree as the Sun position.....and all the other houses with that same degree.
So if the Sun is at 10 Taurus, for instance, you would put the Sun on the ascendant at 10 degree, the 2nd
house would be 10 degree of Gemini,and so on.
IF the person has a career, you can put NOON in the computer as the time and use that chart as a birth chart.
In these charts the Sun will always be around the MC. It's true that you may not be able to use these chartsfor "down to the day" predictions, but they will be about 85-90 percent accurate for character analysis.
For synastry, even just a day chart is fine...as you will put the planets of the person (without the time) on
another person's chart (a chart that does have a time.) The connections will be accurate....except the moon
could be off a few degrees at it it moves about 12 degrees a day. If you use noon the chance that the moon
will be 'off' more than 6 degrees is low. So again: for synastry purposes, having no exact time will not prevent
good analysis.
For synastry, the connections of the heavy planets ....Pluto, Neptune, Uranus, Saturn and Jupiter of the chart ofone person to the personal planets of the other person is most useful.....and those planets do not move in one
day...or not enough to make a difference in the synastry.
Anyway, in synastry, when someone is not a good partner for another, there will be MANY aspects that will be
negative and it will never come down to a lunar aspect. If the 2 people are meant for each other, there will be,again, MANY good aspects between heavy and personal planets.
By the way, many hospitals give 'certificates' as a memento of the birth, and always the time and weigh of thebaby is on there.
Also there may be a baby book that the person forgot about, has misplaced or doesn't know exists!!
LainieBack to top

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Darkerhorse
Ex Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #8 - on: 09.01.2011 at 18:10 [UT] »what did astrologers do before clocks?

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Running For Snow

Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #9 - on: 09.01.2011 at 19:53 [UT] »Quote from Darkerhorse on 09.01.2011 at 18:10 [UT]:
what did astrologers do before clocks?

Posts: 4782
Gender:I think mostly they were there to make predictions about whether it was a good idea to go to war or not? So I
guess it was all horary stuff.
They did have sundials and I think the house systems were different to what they are now.

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Waybread
Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #10 - on: 10.01.2011 at 02:55 [UT] »Quote from Pierrot Lunaire on 08.01.2011 at 05:45 [UT]:even that, right there, is helpful. How would you say would be a good way about learning to read a chart without houses? Just sort of...
ignore them?
I'm very much into looking a synastry charts, not even neessarily btw couples, but ordinary relationships, and it happens a lot that I haveone person with birth data and one w/o. From what you say, I could maybe find a way to interpret by making both ppl for a noon chart,
and that, in a way, would somehow be 'good enough'...
I like the moon sign thing too... a 'quick and dirty tip' that might work to at least narrow things to a manageable range

Posts: 14740
Gender:I respect Linda's advice as a professional astrologer, but there is a high probability of a "solar chart" being
wrong, and then the houses tend to look real, even when they might be completely bogus and give you a very
wrong impression of the individual.
I absolutely agree with her that it is best if the person can make every effort to locate the time in a birth
record. Sources that might get you somewhat close include Mom, a family Bible (for a Christian family), a
saved baby book, or grandma. I actually got some approximate birth times for my mother and her siblings
because my grandmother recorded their birth dates and times to the nearest hour in the margins of an old
cookbook that my sister inherited.
How do you read a chart without houses? I focus on aspects. I am mindful that some truly traditional western
astrologers do not use them, but also that there is a debate about even proper signs amongst tropical andsidereal astrologers.
The book that really tipped me off about the legitimacy of focusing on aspects was Robert Hand, Planets inYouth (good for people of all ages.) This is my all-time favourite basic "cookbook". Although Hand delineatedplanets in signs and houses, he gave readings for aspects that theoretically hold true regardless of the sign orhouse.
Just for example, if someone has sun closely square Pluto or opposite Saturn, they are going to feel it
regardless of the signs or houses they are in.
I do use Astrodienst default noon birth time (minus the houses!) because it is just easier for me to figure on
the moon potentially moving back or forward 6 degrees either way, depending upon the actual birth time. (Themoon moves 12 degrees per day.)
Then planets, signs, and houses should not be conflated, but they do sometimes carry similar meanings.
Sagittarius, Jupiter, and the 9th house can be interpreted as inclining the person to mind-expanding activities
such as travel or philosophy.
Darkerhorse, the really ancient astrologers were mostly interested in omens concerning what we today would
think of as mundance astrology. Then Ptolemy, the greatest Hellenistic astrologer, simply looked at oppositionsin terms of signs. A planet in Scorpio and another one in Taurus would be considered opposite, regardless of
their degrees.
Learning to read a chart without houses is a really useful skill, because oftentimes you don't have a birth timeto input.
Just for example, does everyone remember Amy Bishop? She was the college professor who sprayed hercolleagues with bullets at a faculty meeting about a year ago, killing several of them. This reopened a closed
case in which she was suspected of but not charged with the murder of her brother. Does anyone see atroubled woman in her progressed chart for the shooting date, even without any houses to go by?

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amy_bishop_001.gif (attachment deleted)
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #11 - on: 10.01.2011 at 17:30 [UT] »How did people ascertain time before clocks?
The telling of time has been with us at least since the Babylonians....they used many different methods andthey were he first astrologers (probably)
And the sundial is very old and very accurate if you have a good one.
Posts: 17033

Regarding charts without a time:
I was giving my experience....before the computer I always used a solar, equal house chart for those people
who had no birth times.
HOWEVER:...and this is very important - first, there were VERY FEW of these people. Almost all my clients wereable to get their birth times.
Second: the solar chart actually works for me....why? I don't know. But if I MUST use it I find I can be very
accurate with it, though it is not as accurate, naturally, than a time chart. ALWAYS attempt to get a birth timefirst.
But I must tell this story: I once worked for a man who had no birth time. He wanted me to give him areading and I just did not want to take the chance of telling ANYTHING wrong,....and lucky thing I did....for not
only did he have Mars in Scorpio exactly conjuct his Ascendant....but
HE HAD ALWAYS BEEN CELEBRATING HIS BIRTH ON THE WRONG DAY!!
He had never had occasion to discuss his birth date with family and never had seen his birth record!!
You can also do this: do the chart as a solar chart and then as a 'noon' birth. Study both and see how thecore issues remain the same....which really, they should.
And then get the time and do a time chart and see if there is any big change in the CORE ISSUES.
This is called 'research' and is the most important part of learning astrology.
LainieBack to top

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GhostEx Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #12 - on: 10.01.2011 at 17:41 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 09.01.2011 at 17:57 [UT]:
you said,"yeah, it sounds really hard! The idea I was reading was to isolate all critical events in the person's life (usually bad) and see what hard
aspects to nodes/moon those events were closest to, judging by different ASC possibilities. She suggests using software. Even with this,
it's best to have at least a range/idea (hopefully within the hour)

The problem, you see, is this: you are RELYING on the client to tell you 1) the truth and 2) what the client perceives as the mostimportant events in his/her life.
These don't have to be notable....really....nor negative. The client's perspective may be 'off.'
What I do when I don't have a birth time:
FIRST: I STRONGLY suggest that the perspective client make all necessary efforts to get his/her birth time.

In the U.S. (and other countries) there are TWO separate birth records. There is the legal recordof birth which has a lot of information on it like... the time of birth,what the occupations of the parents are, how many other children were born to this mother, any
children who are deceased, address of the family, and other info NOT on the BIRTH CERTIFICATE
that one receives to validate the birth date.
Often you can access this info on the computer by logging on to the state capitol and the 'dept. ofbirth records' or 'dept. of vital statistics'....or whatever it may be called in that particular state or
country.
You can often just fill out a form on line, pay a fee and get a copy of the birth record in the mail.
HOWEVER; YOU MUST ASK FOR A COPY OF THE BIRTH RECORD 'FOR LEGAL PURPOSES.'
If you ask for a copy of the birth certificate you will just get another copy of the birth certificate.
Assuming you cannot get this information....or you are attemting to do the chart of someone who won't be interested in getting their birthtime,then you can do either of 2 things. You can do an equal house 'solar chart', with the ascendant the same degree as the Sun
position.....and all the other houses with that same degree.
So if the Sun is at 10 Taurus, for instance, you would put the Sun on the ascendant at 10 degree, the 2nd house would be 10 degree ofGemini,and so on.
IF the person has a career, you can put NOON in the computer as the time and use that chart as a birth chart. In these charts the Sun will
always be around the MC. It's true that you may not be able to use these charts for "down to the day" predictions, but they will be about
85-90 percent accurate for character analysis.
For synastry, even just a day chart is fine...as you will put the planets of the person (without the time) on another person's chart (a chartthat does have a time.) The connections will be accurate....except the moon could be off a few degrees at it it moves about 12 degrees aday. If you use noon the chance that the moon will be 'off' more than 6 degrees is low. So again: for synastry purposes, having no exact
time will not prevent good analysis.
For synastry, the connections of the heavy planets ....Pluto, Neptune, Uranus, Saturn and Jupiter of the chart of one person to thepersonal planets of the other person is most useful.....and those planets do not move in one day...or not enough to make a difference inthe synastry.
Anyway, in synastry, when someone is not a good partner for another, there will be MANY aspects that will be negative and it will nevercome down to a lunar aspect. If the 2 people are meant for each other, there will be, again, MANY good aspects between heavy andpersonal planets.
By the way, many hospitals give 'certificates' as a memento of the birth, and always the time and weigh of the baby is on there.
Also there may be a baby book that the person forgot about, has misplaced or doesn't know exists!!
Lainie...So the time on the birth certificate and the birth record, won't be the same?
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Linda Harris

Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #13 - on: 10.01.2011 at 17:48 [UT] »IF the time is on the birth certificate, then you have a time.
Many places do NOT put a time on the 'birth certificate'...and then I suggest requesting the 'birth record.' That
will have the time on it.
Laine
Posts: 17033
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vertexMember

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #14 - on: 10.01.2011 at 17:49 [UT] »Thanks Lainie for explaining that bit.
I needed to show my birth certificate last year for some passport/visa stuff... so I asked my dad for it.

Posts: 5576
Gender:He gave me two documents... I was wondering why there were two....
My dad said one is from the hospital, the other the state. Thanks to you, now I realize the hospital one is thebirth certificate, and state issued one is birth record.
Both have my birthtime....

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GhostEx Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #15 - on: 10.01.2011 at 18:13 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 10.01.2011 at 17:48 [UT]:IF the time is on the birth certificate, then you have a time.
Many places do NOT put a time on the 'birth certificate'...and then I suggest requesting the 'birth record.' That will have the time on it.
Laine

Okay, I thought you were saying that the time listed on the birth certificates isn't accurate and that you need
the birth record to have the correct time, which had me thinking I've been looking at the wrong charts foryears, hence my.
Out here they put the birth time on the actual birth certificate - or at least, they used to around the time me
and my siblings were born, and before. Whether they still do now, I have no clue.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #16 - on: 10.01.2011 at 18:14 [UT] »Well, I don't know where you live....but in NY most years there is no time of birth on the birth certificate, which
is not a hospital certificate. If the hospital gives a 'memento' it will have all the info about the infant....time,weight, length,etc. the birth cert. is a legal validation from the state that you were born.

Posts: 17033

The birth record is beyond that. Also from the state, it includes info not usually on the birth certificate.
You were lucky that you have 2 proofs of birth time.
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Pierrot Lunaire

Ex Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #17 - on: 13.01.2011 at 07:14 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 10.01.2011 at 17:30 [UT]:
How did people ascertain time before clocks?
The telling of time has been with us at least since the Babylonians....they used many different methods and they were he first astrologers(probably)
And the sundial is very old and very accurate if you have a good one.
Regarding charts without a time:
I was giving my experience....before the computer I always used a solar, equal house chart for those people who had no birth times.
HOWEVER:...and this is very important - first, there were VERY FEW of these people. Almost all my clients were able to get their birthtimes.
Second: the solar chart actually works for me....why? I don't know. But if I MUST use it I find I can be very accurate with it, though it is
not as accurate, naturally, than a time chart. ALWAYS attempt to get a birth time first.
But I must tell this story: I once worked for a man who had no birth time. He wanted me to give him a reading and I just did not want totake the chance of telling ANYTHING wrong,....and lucky thing I did....for not only did he have Mars in Scorpio exactly conjuct his
Ascendant....but
HE HAD ALWAYS BEEN CELEBRATING HIS BIRTH ON THE WRONG DAY!! that's pretty insane...
He had never had occasion to discuss his birth date with family and never had seen his birth record!!
You can also do this: do the chart as a solar chart and then as a 'noon' birth. Study both and see how the core issues remain thesame....which really, they should.
And then get the time and do a time chart and see if there is any big change in the CORE ISSUES.
This is called 'research' and is the most important part of learning astrology.
LainieI definitely like the idea of comparing the solar chart to the noon chart, as showing core issues/trends foranalysis.
In my case, my noon chart shows l ASC and 7H G, both which (among other things) resonate tremendously.
Also a CMC m which reminds me of when ppl have said to me "you shoulda been a writer". My solar chart(6:35AM birthtime) has an 8H F (no trouble amassing huge amts of debt, hee hee) and a fMC, which speaks
to all the f in my life. (not to mention a GMC m, which speaks to my inability to effect great carreer
achievements, sigh)I also like the clarification re synastry, in which outer planet/personal planet issues are strongly relevant
enough to not suffer much from lack of houses. In the name of research, it might be interesting to try synastry
using noon, solar, and birthtime accurate (when available) synastry setups, to see what happens
by doing this one might get a better feel for how to interpret charts w/o a birth time
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: chart rectification?
« Reply #18 - on: 17.01.2011 at 22:07 [UT] »Pierrot:
It's always a good idea to 'play' with the chart to see how changing the time of birth changes anything. I

Posts: 17033

believe that the most important thing that changes...believe it or not....is NOT the ascendant...and I know I'll
get flak for this statement...as of course it's important...but as you saw the same issues can come up via
different houses....
but....the MOON position.
I once did a synastry for a gal who didn't have the guy's time of birth. I used either 6 a.m. or noon...I forget
which....but when we finally got the time the moon had not only changed signs it made a square with her
Mars....and HER Saturn or Uranus squared IT. Because of the change of sign and esp. the moon, an OK
synastry became a "no way" synastry." And that is how it turned out.
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