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Free will vs determinism and other ideas (Read 449 times)

Kent Tolley
Ex MemberFree will vs determinism and other ideas« on: 02.01.2009 at 19:02 [UT] »In 1991, Richard Tarnas finished and released “The Passion of the Western Mind”
Joseph Campbell (Hero with a Thousand Faces) endorsed the book this way: “The most lucid and concise
presentation I have read, of the grand lines of what every student should know about the history of Westernthought. The writing is elegant and carries the reader with the momentum of a novel; the organization,
astonishingly simple; and the balanced ease of treatment of each of the crucial nodes of controversy …
exemplary. It is really a noble performance."
Huston Smith said about it: “No other such overview provides, in equal compass, as clear and cogent a survey.
Its scholarship is impeccable…for its length it is the best intellectual history of the West I have ever seen.”
Stanislav Grof: “This is the most creative and comprehensive treatment of the history of Western thought I
know. The book is a masterpiece.”That is high praise from three of our most enlightened modern masters. The book traces the arc of Westerndevelopment by examining the major ideas which have shaped and guided our course and I cannot recommend
it highly enough. That was all prolog to introduce Richard Tarnas and put him in perspective so you canevaluate the person along with what he has to say.
The great thing about the Internet is you have at your disposal a library second to none. Of course in this“library” there are vast sections of nothing but junk and weekly gossip and fan magazines which sometimes thisforum reminds me. But on the internet and in this forum also there are wonderful discoveries to be made.
In response to something Mastema wrote about Oprah Winfrey in another thread I found this by googling“Richard Tarnas asrology” which I think some of you may find interesting. I think Tarnas' ideas are a modern
and enlightened way of looking at astrology in comparison to the determinism and more traditional astrologyof yesterday. For your consideration: http://www.gaiamind.org/AstroIntro.html
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Krista ShippMember

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #1 - on: 02.01.2009 at 19:30 [UT] »Interesting- to say the least

ThanxMuch,
KristaPosts: 15841
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

Kent Tolley
Ex Member« Reply #2 - on: 02.01.2009 at 19:41 [UT] »Krista- It is a lot to digest, I know. If nothing else, the Three preliminary Issues at the beginning of his
essay are essential reading. And thank you for you continued support. You are one of the people who keep me
coming back to this forum.
K
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astroveg

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #3 - on: 02.01.2009 at 20:27 [UT] »Instead of free will there is an illusion of having freedom, nevertheless this illusion is almost as strong as
human ideal of free will.

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Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #4 - on: 02.01.2009 at 20:29 [UT] »Wonderful, enlightening essay, Kent. Thank you

Posts: 908
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lanokiEx Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #5 - on: 02.01.2009 at 23:38 [UT] »and anyone interested in Richard Tarnas' Passion of the Western Mind and Astrology should also consider
Tarnus' Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View ...
Review on back cover: "In Cosmos and Psyche, distinguished philosopher and cultural historian Richard Tarnus
demonstrates the existence of an astonishingly consistent correspondence between planetary alignments andthe archetypal patterns of human history and biography. Based on thirty years of meticulous research, thisbrilliant book points to a radical change in our understanding of the cosmos, shining new light on the drama of
history and on our own critical age. It opens up a new cosmic horizen that reunites science and religion,
intellect and soul, modern reason and ancient wisdom."
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IP LoggedlanokiEx Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #6 - on: 03.01.2009 at 07:40 [UT] »Kent (why did I call you "Trent" earlier?)
I'll blame it on the planets...and being dehydrated from a night of "civil debauchery" (within the parameters of
established laws of public conduct...)I've already "hinted" in other threads that I find it problematic when we give up personal responsibility/powerand surrender to the planets.
I am one of those who believes that determinism and free will are mutually exclusive - yet, paradoxically, arenecessary to form a whole picture for us little earthlings.
Perhaps I am simply a product of a modern, Western culture that emphasizes individual autonomy and am
heavily invested in the idea that I have choices that can influence the otherwise unknown outcome of an event.
I can recognize determinism in (Newtonian) macro-physics: We can predict the outcome of an event if we have
known variables, such as the trajectory and landing of an object, the orbits of the planets in our solar system,etc.
But with the rise of "phenomenology" or plurality of subjective experiences (humanistic psychology) andquantum or "esoteric" physics in the last century, the picture gets a little fuzzy.
It seems, the further "in" we look...the "fuzzier" it gets. For example, The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle:
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/208/jan27/hup.html
What is certain or determined?
I believe that we're given a body and a set of strengths and challenges with which to work with in each life.
These are symbolzed by our natal charts or "blueprints".
Perhaps, there are certain pivotal happenings or events in our lives that are "predetermined" but to assert that
Astrology is exact science and that we can know all there is to know is tantamount to being seduced bydeterminism and HUBRIS. You know...being burned by the Sun while the rest of the gods laugh.
How about a short story:
I have heard that the approximate life span of a human cell is 7 yrs. The cell is that tiny micro-version of us
repeated with an awe inspiring sense of cohesive, cooperative order, disorder, perfection, and imperfection. A
cell is in constant comm. w/ neighboring cells, and, by association, with every other cell. We have cells thatseem to function as warriors and messengers in order to purge infections, or send warnings. Some cells,
unfortunately, atrophy and die due to a lack of interaction w/ neighboring cells. As may be expected, thehealthiest cells are actively engaged with their environment. Sometimes cells seem to die unexpectedly but thisis often concomitant w/ the growth of new cells or a pivotal shift in bio-development.
Nevertheless, all cells must some day meet an end and subsequent new beginning. But where does the "oldme" end and the "new me" begin? I assume, by this analogy, that what/who I am is constantly in flux; I am anever-changing, yet, coherent continuum; I am a primordial or residual "soup" of all that ever was "me"; I am
countless interpretations and dreams. The Heisenbedrg Uncertainty Principle comes to mind as I begin to
wonder what it would be like to attempt locating "me" in temporal space. This is where "I" cease to be a wave influx and become a localized entity; something observed as a particle/person (if you will indulge my fantasies)the "me" that is perceived to be frozen in space and time.
So, how can we live in a predetermined universe if we, ourselves, are seemingly "programmed" to be"undetermined"?
Determinisn, in my opinion, only exists in a finite, measurable universe.
Free will (and Divine Love), in my opinion, only exists by recognizing the infinite inner universe (as the Sufissay); We do not surrender to anything "out there", we "surrender" to the "will" of Divine Love...in our hearts.
Astrology, in my opinion, is just another way of expressing that age-old "divine covenant" of RECIPROCITY that
I've recognized in every mystical tradtion I have laid eyes on: "As above, so below."

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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

lanokiEx Member« Reply #7 - on: 03.01.2009 at 16:55 [UT] »Kent,
I just breezed through your conversation with Mastema in his thread regarding Oprah.
Perhaps I'm preaching to the choir here but I disagree (again) with Mastema that Free Will vs. Determinism ismerely a matter of Psychological discussion and such "clinical" and/or psychological considerations should be
avoided - again, he is resisting the tide here - not only does he dismiss Western Astrology...he also insists thatthe majority of (western ?) Professional astrologers should (who consider their work to be more intuitive andthoroughly helpful with a strong base in counseling psychology principles ----- not the same as clinicalpsychology when folks are diagnosed with mood, anxiety, personality, etc. disorders) avoid "psychologicalconsiderations" in their readings! My opinion is just the opposite!
Is he the Copernican Rev. of our time? lol Or someone who inspires and spurs us on even further?
I do respect his talent for dissecting an individual chart ------ after the fact ---I do respect that he does not succumb to ad hominine attacks to support his views.
And he seems like an overall decent young guy with a passion for learning
But I had to cringe when he asserted that the Q of free will vs. determinism fell under the umbrella ofPsychology and, therefore, should be dismissed.
It is true that modern humanistic psychology has enhanced this idea of individual autonomy and, hence, free
will...but I also think that Mastema is missing the point that it is also a metaphysical Question of sorts -but AH!
Modern quantum physics comes into the picture as well!
You see, in my opinion, this is a discussion that could easily include folks with diverse "ideologies"...so the factthat you and Mastema (as he asserted) have differing ideologies is quite fitting for a discussion such as this. I
suppose you and (I) and Mastema are all Willfully Determined to be invested in our own views!
Willfully Determined,
Lanoki
BTW: I am glad to see that there are still plenty of people out there who read actual books - the number ofreferences to "Wiki" in this forum is unencouraging to me as anyone can write anything unqualified on these
supposed "resource" sites!
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

Kent Tolley
Ex Member« Reply #8 - on: 04.01.2009 at 00:28 [UT] »Dear Lonoki –I spent yesterday and last night out of my house so this is the first chance I have to respond to these
discussions. I admire the depth of your understanding of these issues and must return the compliment to youthat thank God you read. Free will vs determinism is, I think, one of the central questions of our time. You
can see the two arguments battle with each other in the persons of Einstein and Neils Bohr.
Let me say this for the others who may read this because you obviously are well-versed in this subject. In anutshell
Einstein believed God does not play dice with the universe.
Bohr’s retort was, stop telling God what to do.
Of course they loved and respected each other but represented two sides of a question vital to our time and alltime. I would give anything to have been a fly on the wall during any one of their on-going discussions. To
have been so scientifically as well as philosophically advanced as they both were is something I greatly admire.
They also seem to have both been “willfully determined to be invested in their own views” as you say. As muchas I will always love Einstein for his huge gift to collective, I think time has proved Bohr correct in thisparticular matter. And I believe these ideas and this debate is not at all limited to the field of theoreticalphysics. It is especially fitting to astology.
I am very happy to see this discussion here and thank you for your contribution to it. It is so much moremeaningful to me than the majority of the threads that fill these columns, day in and day out. I fear that you
and I and a few others are in the miniority here and I'm not sure how long I can stay in this environment. We
have all levels of understanding, from kindergarden through high school to graduate school here and everyone
must have their say. It is an unlikely place to reach any deeper understanding.
K
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

lanokiEx Member« Reply #9 - on: 04.01.2009 at 02:15 [UT] »K,
I'll take responsibility for having higher expectations for this forum. Perhaps, I need to be more patient andlearn to "weed" through the "fluff". And I'm certainly done with second-guessing having come back with adifferent Profile.
I know if I leave I'll still be reading some of the threads and at some point I'll want to jump in with my $.02...
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

Pixie Vixen
Ex Member« Reply #10 - on: 04.01.2009 at 02:33 [UT] »Quote from Kent Tolley on 04.01.2009 at 00:28 [UT]:. I fear that you and I and a few others are in the miniority here and I'm not sure how long I can stay in this environment. We have alllevels of understanding, from kindergarden through high school to graduate school here and everyone must have their say. It is an unlikely
place to reach any deeper understanding.
K

I believe on this forum there are many more people than you assume that can relate to your post, for so many
here are much wiser than they "pipe up" to be. It's really not a level of kindergarten through graduate
school I believe, for many people here are at "grad school" in their studies- more of a person enjoying rockmusic vs. classical.
All of us love and study this subject here on this forum, on varying degrees- come from different backgrounds
and different beliefs/values/etc, so perhaps not many will comment on this thread who agree with you 100%,
but we can at least read what you write and value it for *your own* opinion.

Free will vs. determinism is something that we will hear of throughout all of our lives, very fascinating to readof.

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Kent Tolley

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #11 - on: 04.01.2009 at 02:39 [UT] »Pixie Vixen I believe on this forum there are many more people than you assume that can relate to your post, for so many
here are much wiser than they pipe up to be.
You have been here much longer than I and so I respect what you have to say on this matter.
Maybe this is a case of"Those who know, do not speak. And those who speak, do not know."
But I wish more of the wise ones would speak more often.
K
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Pixie Vixen
Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #12 - on: 04.01.2009 at 02:43 [UT] »Quote from Kent Tolley on 04.01.2009 at 02:39 [UT]:
Pixie Vixen You have been here much longer than I and so I respect what you have to say on this matter.
Maybe this is a case of"Those who know, do not speak. And those who speak, do not know."
But I wish more of the wise ones would speak more often.
K

Ah, I believe it's a mixture of that- some of us who know speak do speak, while others who know do not
speak;
More of the "wise ones"? What do you mean?

To a degree, all of us our wise for having lived through whatever we have lived through- perhaps some of us
have gone through horrid divorces, or seen a parent died- or learned how to get over alcoholism, so we are allwise to some degree- or wise from dumping someone who cheated.
Not all of us have time to right essay type responses to the threads- we might all just respond vaguely becauseof real life duties.
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Kent Tolley

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #13 - on: 04.01.2009 at 02:50 [UT] »You said: many here are much wiser than they "pipe up" to be
Next you said: More of the "wise ones" ? What do you mean? in response to my reply.
Huh?
Not all of us have time to right (sic) essay type responses to the threads
I think you write whatever is required to make your point.
If your point is sarcastic you can do it in few words of innuendo.
If your point is simplistic, you can do it in a few sentences.
Whatever it takes is my motto.
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Pixie Vixen
Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #14 - on: 04.01.2009 at 02:56 [UT] »Quote from Kent Tolley on 04.01.2009 at 02:50 [UT]:
You said: many here are much wiser than they "pipe up" to be
Next you said: More of the "wise ones" ? What do you mean? in response to my reply.
Huh?
Not all of us have time to right essay type responses to the threads
I think you write whatever is required to make your point.
If your point is sarcastic you can do it in few words of innuendo.
If your point is simplistic, you can do it in a few sentences.
Whatever it takes is my motto.

I was trying to say that some do not have the time to write out long responses that would let you "see" thatthey do indeed appreciate, comprehend and relate to this thread.
Mm, and also I was just wondering what you meant by "wise"- "wise" in regards to this topic or "wise" inregards to just in general...?
Of course a person can write whatever they want to write.
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Kent Tolley

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #15 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:01 [UT] »I mean wise in the universally understood meaning of the term:knowledge, understanding, experience, discretion, and intuition together with the ability to apply thesequalities towards finding solutions to problems.
My apology if I misunderstand you
But I don't think you are trying to understand what I meant.
I think you are trying to argue.
I don't wanna. Sorry.
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Pixie Vixen
Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #16 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:11 [UT] »Quote from Kent Tolley on 04.01.2009 at 03:01 [UT]:
I mean wise in the universally understood meaning of the term:knowledge, understanding, experience, discretion, and intuition together with the ability to apply these qualities towards finding solutions
to problems.
My apology if I misunderstand you
But I don't think you are trying to understand what I meant.
I think you are trying to argue.
I don't wanna. Sorry.

No, I was not trying to argue at all- I was merely trying to clarify what you meant by "wise", but you did clarify
so thanks.
It's alright, misunderstandings happen quite often online.
Anyway, I'm sure more people will see this thread soon and will respond so...
So what did you really mean then?

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Kent Tolley

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #17 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:20 [UT] »Pixie you wrote:
So what did you really mean then?

What did I mean when?
I repeat: Huh?
You'll have to be more explicit. If you are vague, as you say, you leave the door open for precisely themisunderstanding which you have been acknowledging.
One agreement I would like to make is that after you have written "I was not trying to be sarcastic" and then I
respond, that you do not go back and modify your original post except to correct typos or punctuation because
it makes my reply appear non sequitur.
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Carrie
Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #18 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:29 [UT] »"Discussion: Psychological and General Astrology"
i have a deep respect both for Psychology and Astrology which can account for my thoughtfully, perhaps,
overlywordy posts.
apologies if i've alienated folks - not my intention.
my intention is to have meaningful dialogue.
thank you for responding, Pixie Vixen
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Kent Tolley

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #19 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:32 [UT] »Some write a few essay-like posts.
Some write 905 posts.
I seems unfair for one to blame the other, even by innuendo, for their particular style.
And now we have managed to get completely away from the original topic.
As the first topic I have initiated on these boards I am dissappointed in that.
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CarrieEx Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #20 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:35 [UT] »word

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Pixie Vixen

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #21 - on: 04.01.2009 at 03:45 [UT] »Quote from Kent Tolley on 04.01.2009 at 03:20 [UT]:

I repeat: Huh?
You'll have to be more explicit. If you are vague, as you say, you leave the door open for precisely the misunderstanding which you havebeen acknowledging.
One agreement I would like to make is that after you have written "I was not trying to be sarcastic" and then I respond, that you do not
go back and modify your original post except to correct typos or punctuation because it makes my reply appear non sequitur.

"But I don't think you are trying to understand what I meant" - is what you wrote, yes?
And I wrote: "So what did you really mean then?"
No my friend, even if you are very specific, one can misinterpret- all of us write based on our thoughts, yes?
Well when "relaying" our thoughts from our brains to the pen/keyboard/whatever, at times it is near impossible
to relay *exactly* what we meant without re-explaining it to another.
No, I go back to correct because I am a f ASC and it is for my own sake that I do- not because of whatever it
is you may think.
Ah yes, so go on to your topic because, my apologies, I seem to have interrupted.
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CarrieEx Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #22 - on: 04.01.2009 at 04:05 [UT] »Pixie Vixen,
i'm curious..what are your thoughts on the debate of will vs fate?
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Pixie Vixen

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #23 - on: 04.01.2009 at 04:27 [UT] »Quote from Carrie on 04.01.2009 at 04:05 [UT]:
Pixie Vixen,
i'm curious..what are your thoughts on the debate of will vs fate?
CarrieAlright, so I'll go into something I've mentioned before on these forums for the sake of my argument:
So last year I was given a psychotrophic drug, it made me suicidal so I had the "choice" to fall 61 ft or the"choice" of continuing in my misery, living day in and day out with those thoughts of wanting to harm of myself
right? For about a month and a half I had these thoughts, every day- I tried to act on them, but nothing would
ever "set me free" from my misery, so I found a parking garage across from this place, inspected the top andthe next day found myself climbing ontop of this thing that would allow me to fall;
I have very little memory of being at the top, but the next thing you know- days later (after I was in the ICU
for 9 days I was later told), I was on a hospital bed- my spine fractured, my hip fractured and my arm fractured
as well;Thankfully I was not paralyzed, if a higher up my spine would have been fractured I would have been- but I
came out of it, 2 and half months later, with part of the right medicine (later I found the second to the combo
to help relieve my horrible anxiety), metal in my body and surgical scars on me as well- ready to let the healing
process begin (I also had severe brain trauma- that took from the end of November 07 until June 08 to finallypass);
Anyway, so was this fate that this happened? I believe that something "big" was meant to happen to help me
indeed find help to my horrible anxiety, but I don't think it necessarily had to be a suicide attempt- maybe lateron I would have found help with another psychiatrist, or a friend could have recommended the combination of
medicine, who knows- but I do know that I was *meant* to have something really shake me up and changeme, and that attempt that severely injured me was it.
I had free will to *choose* to "fall" or not (I don't believe I had the courage to jump off that pillar, so I think I
probably rolled off but I am not 100% sure)- I knew very well that I could die or end up paralyzed, but by thegrace of God Himself I am still here, able to function properly, feed myself (in the hospital for a bit I was on afeeding tube), take care of myself- drive my car, read/write, understand people, communicate, love, hate and soforth which we humans can experience- and last year after that happened, I came across Astrology and began
to study it- here I am, talking to all of you, and those of you who don't know me had no idea of this.
Was it fate that I fell? Like I said, I don't believe it had to be *that*, but I believe it was fate that, as I stated
before, something big happened to *change* me.
In life, we all have free will- we can choose to "hit the pipe" which has illegal drugs in it or choose not to, we
can "choose" to have sex without protection or choose not to, we can choose to vote for the president orchoose not to- the list goes on; as far as fate goes, perhaps some of us believe we have a "fate" on this planet,that maybe each one of us is "destined" to do something- I believe I am meant to do something, but what I am
not 100% sure- I think somehow I am meant to help others through this hard experience of mine, to show
them that if I can come back from that and still walk around/function like a normal human being, that anythingis possible for themselves.
And when it comes to anxiety or depression or whatever form of mental illness you have, you have the choice
to fight it or let it win.

Or, you have the choice to tell yourself negative things or positive- to talk down to yourself or praise yourself; I
learned for many years how negative talk and alter your chemical makeup just as badly as naturally having it inyour genetics- so in the long run, I believe that free will is very powerful, but if not for fate- or the fate that
God has for me, I might have perished and not be writing today on this forum.
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Carrie
Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #24 - on: 04.01.2009 at 04:59 [UT] »Wow!
Pixie Vixen, that is quite the life experience!
I deeply appreciate that you chose to share that here, again in this forum...if only to give some of us"newbeees" a better idea of who you are.
I gather from your pic that a sense of humor is also a good "med", eh?
It is true as I mentioned before in this thread that I entered as "Kyung75" and then left a few days later for fearof being offended or offending someone else - I'm waaaay too sensitive sometimes.
When I came back I decided that I wanted to have a smiling pic and a new name b/c I was afraid forum folks
would come to know me as the "abandoned orphan"...I diddn't want the "wound stigma"....but it will always be
there regardless of my name/s.
I also wanted to tell you (before I forget) that your story resonates powerfully with me both b/c it was apersonal, life-changing/challenging event for you and you related this to the topic at hand...and I agreed withyour points...perhaps b/c i've had similar experiences - especially in my troubled youth.
I do read a lot and I had to in school...but, more importantly, lessons learned in real-life experiences are theones that really matter!
I'm all over the place right now wanting to say so much (tis part of my problem....overly wordy at times andscattered...difficult to focus)
I'm glad that you came through recovery - your strength, humor, wit, compassion, is deeply appreciated...
pretty much every time i see one of your posts i am delighted...your pic always brings a grin to my facelastly, i want to tell you that i did spend time in a teen-psych-ward...and in "placement" as a youth...i canrelate...in many ways.
Glad to see you here
Carrie/Lanoki/Kyung ....whatever i am in any given moment

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Pixie Vixen

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #25 - on: 04.01.2009 at 05:09 [UT] »Wow, I am so happy that I could impact you in some way, God bless your kind words!

Perhaps I really am meant to talk to people about my experience or maybe write a book on it for I feel so goodwhen I can share and someone reacts positively!
Yes, my sense of humor is one of my "medicines"- they do say laughter is the best medicine so!

No problem though, I am glad to share for perhaps someone can relate, or at least feel my compassion for
those who suffer psychologically or in some way because *I* really do feel the urge to pass this story from time
to time, when it is appropriate.
Oh yes, I believe I remember you from the other name (vaguely)- but to be honest there are so many new
members that I'm sure so many have forgotten if you did offend or trigger something, etc (not sure because I
can't remember so).
Ah yes, ha- psychiatric facilities- let me tell you, the reason why I ended up in my situation to begin with was
because of one, and ironically it's the parking garage from which I fell from- but, I am thankful it happened,
so I will not sue him- I will sue someone before him which started the trend of things like that. (I wasprescribed Lamictal- had a strong allergic reaction, had partial seizures when they took me off it- then that's
when I added up in another facility, the drug that made me truly suicidal was Zyprexa which was prescribed byanother- they thought I was bipolar but really I have General Anixety Disorder coupled with PTSD- when
you have such extremes in anxiety it makes you feel bummed, but it is not "depression" that triggers theanxiety if that makes sense, for me personally);
I'm glad my picture brings a grin to your face because I want it to bring many grins to people! I think it'srather suiting considering I have an 8th house stellium, I speak of that which some people gasp of- so I took a
picture a while ago of me gasping in a dramatic/humorous manner.
But it is nice to talk to you Carrie, and God bless again!

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Krista ShippMember

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #26 - on: 04.01.2009 at 06:26 [UT] »((((((Pixie Vixen)))))
Much Light to you- I know a few who suffer from panic disorder..
Sadly- this is SO misunderstood- by those that walk in darkness.
Stay in the Light Always,
Posts: 15841
Gender:Love,
KristaPM me anytime

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Pixie Vixen

Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #27 - on: 04.01.2009 at 06:45 [UT] »Quote from Krista Shipp on 04.01.2009 at 06:26 [UT]:((((((Pixie Vixen)))))
Much Light to you- I know a few who suffer from panic disorder..
Sadly- this is SO misunderstood- by those that walk in darkness.
Stay in the Light Always,
Love,
KristaPM me anytime

to you Krista and God bless!
Ah yes, panic disorder- I have had very few "panic attacks", but I do a few who suffer from them every day andI sympathize with them.

Yes, it is very misunderstood- all the "disorders" in that area, ah!
I will surely pm you sometime Miss. OmASC
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Krista ShippMember

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #28 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:11 [UT] »Make that OmEmasc- Missy !!!

Love,
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Night Sky

Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #29 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:20 [UT] »Depends on how I feel.

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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

Krista ShippMember« Reply #30 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:23 [UT] »Hmmmmmmmk
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Pixie Vixen

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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #31 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:23 [UT] »Quote from Krista Shipp on 04.01.2009 at 07:11 [UT]:
Make that

OmEmasc- Missy !!!

Love,
KristaOh how I can forget, EmOmASC - inserted into my memory for good now!
Ah, it's no wonder I thought of you as feeling *Arian*!

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Krista ShippMember

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #32 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:26 [UT] »Also- kick in that 1st house A
LOL- the more I look at my chart tonight- the more 'goofed' up it looks.

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Pixie Vixen

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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #33 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:29 [UT] »Quote from Krista Shipp on 04.01.2009 at 07:26 [UT]:
Also- kick in that 1st house

A

LOL- the more I look at my chart tonight- the more 'goofed' up it looks.
KristaLol, yes true- the 1st is a's natural house so!

I know many who are not a but have houses in the 1st, at times they seem more Arian than I.

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Curiosa Nervosa
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #34 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:36 [UT] »Quote from Pixie Vixen on 04.01.2009 at 07:29 [UT]:
Quote from Krista Shipp on 04.01.2009 at 07:26 [UT]:
Also- kick in that 1st house

A

LOL- the more I look at my chart tonight- the more 'goofed' up it looks.

Posts: 4365

KristaLol, yes true- the 1st is

a's natural house so

I know many who are not!

a but have houses in the 1st, at times they seem more Arian than I.

Yes,the AC is really astonishingly important in a chart I find.Very often if I try to guess someone's sign,Iguessed the AC.
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

Night Sky

Member« Reply #35 - on: 04.01.2009 at 07:46 [UT] »My problem with free will is that I am held responsible for the mess I´m in.

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Carrie/Lanoki...
Ex Member

Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #36 - on: 04.01.2009 at 14:56 [UT] »Nightsky,
this is why i feel it is important to pose the Q of "will vs determinism" b/c as Kent mentioned at the top of thisthread - it is one of the central themes of our time - of all "time".
i am not particularly interested in being able to assign individual "blame" or responsiblilty on any one person
whenever something does not go my way or something "bad" happens.
more importantly, if we assess the state of our home, Earth...it seems the masses (astrology students or not)have agreed that something has to change...
yes, it may have been "determined" that we live in that age dinstinguished by the Mayans as the one on theverge of ????
but humanity can "take responsibility by the horns" -- so to speak...or, in the least each one of can recognize
our own involovement with the planet and each other...like, "I chose to leave the water running while brushing
my teeth" ------ or, "I chose to give that driver my middle finger rather than take a deep breath and continue todrive safely."
i was "guilty" of these kinds of things in a big way in my youth -- and i still "accidently" give my middle finger
to other folks - if only in my mind - can i blame it on the stars?
Carrie/Lanoki
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas

Sweetrhonda

Member« Reply #37 - on: 04.01.2009 at 15:41 [UT] »A wonderful read! Thank you for the link.
It's one thing to have a certain planetary aspect in your chart, good or bad.
Posts: 174
Gender:But what we choose to do with it is up to us. Life experiences along the way will give us
ample opportunity to learn the best way to handle what we've been given if we decide we
WANT to learn.
Ones upbringing, religious beliefs etc. will play a big part in this but it still comes down to choice.

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65454
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Re: Free will vs determinism and other ideas« Reply #38 - on: 05.01.2009 at 19:07 [UT] »?

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