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Scapegoating (Read 1242 times)

Candlewick
Ex Member

Scapegoating« on: 14.02.2010 at 20:43 [UT] »I'm interested in exploring the placements and aspects involved in scapegoating. I'm not talking about society
at large but about scapegoating that goes on at a personal level, either in families or in intimate social groups.
I've found "scapegoating" mentioned in a few threads, but I don't think they have the focus I'm intending here.
For background on scapegoating, I found this link:http://www.scapegoat.demon.co.uk/, but I'm not sure
how active this association is. The information is quite comprehensive, but I'm sure you can find more
information elsewhere.
Have you been "scapegoated"? Do you have any thoughts about how this is indicated in your chart?
In my own case, I'm the victim of scapegoating in my family. I suspect B (4th ruler) m I (12th ruler) on the
DC is one indicator. I also have O in the 3rd in c.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #1 - on: 14.02.2010 at 20:56 [UT] »Ahhh this is good stuff. Little sleepy headed from napping but I will be getting back to this one!! Excellent
topic, I hope others will join in!!

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Skye Dam
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #2 - on: 14.02.2010 at 21:50 [UT] »Yikes! An interesting study in human behavior... this whole notion of how others project their own unresolved
issues onto another person. Not sure how this shows up astrologically, but I am thinking Neptune & Pluto.
On a personal level, I have had 1st hand experience of scapegoating, and looking back it created alot of anger. I
am not sure why I became a magnet, other than I was most convienent target for someone elses
disappointments, frustrations, failures. ARGHH!
Now, I am very aware of those kinds of manipulative power plays, and try to make a conscious effort not to getcaught up in other people's projections.
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Re: Scapegoating« Reply #3 - on: 14.02.2010 at 22:10 [UT] »Candlewick, I had this happen in my job a while back. I wouldn't say I went through life as a scapegoat,
although relationships with my immediate family members were a bit tense.
In my job, the astrological culprit appears to be some heavy transits, notably Pluto squaring my sun and Mars.
My sun and Mars are 7 degrees apart, so if you toss in their midpoint and the closely associated midpoint of
my natal Saturn/Pluto [which oppose my sun] this transit went on for a very long time.
At the time I had taken on some extra responsibilities and had a fairly high profile among my co-workers

Posts: 14740
Gender:because of them. And the scapegoating seemed very Plutonian: a few co-workers and a supervisor out todestroy my reputation in some ruthless and underhanded ways. [I eventually settled my sexual
harassment/discrimination complaint with the human rights commission in exchange for everything I asked for.
No matter--it didn't redeem me very much! But with Saturn/Pluto opposite your sun, you have to learn tohold your ground.]In light of the work of Erin Sullivan and Liz Greene on family dynamics, I think where scapegoating occurs
within the family, it would be interesting to trace any harsh aspects through the family horoscopes over thegenerations.
I haven't completed this project yet, but I have a lot of genealogy/family history birth data, and found thatsun-Pluto contacts are common in 6 generations of women in my maternal line. With the opposition, I had theworst of the bunch, but fortunately my daughter and niece seem to have dissipated this tension.
Astrologically, I wonder about the theory that family members chose to incarnate together to work out certain
destinies. If, astrologically speaking, you can identify a harsh aspect that seems to define the unhealthy family
dynamic, I wonder if the scapegoat gets a colossal burden of this energy--and then is challenged to break thenegative trajectory through through her personal or spiritual evolution.
Personally, I am still waiting on the evolution part.
I am not sure that scapegoating always has the same astrological signature, because it can occur in different
ways, from ruthless hostility [J] to actual phyical violence [E] to behind-the-scenes back-stabbing [12thhouse.]
You can oftentimes see psychological projection in a chart: oppositions to the sun or the ascendant. Both thesign and ASC are "me" points in the horoscope, so that the opposing planet/s and DC become the "not me"
points. Women with their sun conjunct the DC seem prone to give away their power to someone else.

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ThothyRe: Scapegoating

Nocturnal« Reply #4 - on: 14.02.2010 at 22:49 [UT] »Ex Member

I've been the victim of scapegoating, but almost exclusively in a working environment. I've always attributed
this to I & K m DSC, but if O is any indicator, it is conjunct my 6th house cusp.

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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #5 - on: 14.02.2010 at 23:05 [UT] »So many responses! That pleases me. Thanks! Obviously, it's a delicate subject that can reopen all kinds ofwounds. So sorry that you all have experienced this also. I've experienced some scapegoating at work in thepast but not as much as Waybread and others of you. I've mainly been suffering in my family for many years(in adulthood) and have just TODAY figured out what's going on. My younger sister was always the difficult
child and I was the "good" and "successful" child, so all of her resentment against me has resulted in her
alienating EVERYONE in my family against me. Everything is always my fault. I am the elephant in the livingroom that everyone has to tip-toe around, etc. And my sister has become so buddy-buddy with my daughterin-law that I am getting close to also losing my children.
But the website info I posted has opened my eyes a bit. I will insist on communicating (in a kind but firm way)
my intention to not play this role anymore. I think my therapist is already aware that this is happening after ajoint meeting I had with my therapist and sister a few days ago.
Yes, I do think planets on the DC are important, especially Neptune, but I agree with Waybread that theenergies are definitely often very Plutonian. Pluto is all about power and the need to be in control, and that
describes my sister exactly. She has Pluto on the MC, conjunct my Saturn, and she has Scorpio rising. Her
NNode is conjunct her Ascendant and my sun is exactly conjunct her DC, so she sees me as her enemy. (Myinterpretation.) Since I have DoG, my Do my sister's J. I might add that her Pluto and my Saturn are bothconjunct Regulus and my Saturn is in my 5th house of second siblings. I have learned over the years that
because of Regulus, I cannot "get even". I always have to take the high road, so that is my current challenge. I
won't give up, though, because there is too much at stake.
I do have Erin Sullivan's book and am devouring it at this moment. I also have several of Liz Greene's books
that I refer to often. It would please me very much if I could break this cycle, and I will definitely follow
Waybread's suggestion to take a look at aspects in past ancestors' charts.
Yes, the transits are a key factor in my situation. As I've stated several times "ad nauseam", I currently have t.
J o my natal B and t. G m n. B. (T. J is also m my p. B. Does that count?) Awful. Awful. Awful. And thetorture will continue for another couple of years, but I'm hopeful that by the time t. Pluto is m my MC at 10j,
people will see me in a much better light.
As far as "karma" and reincarnation are concerned, I can't add anything since that is not part of my personal
belief system.
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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #6 - on: 15.02.2010 at 00:46 [UT] »I don't understand this very clearly, but I think my brother is the scapegoat of our family.
We all have B in hard aspect to G, so as a family we don't really do emotion or feelings very well. Lot's of aand fire.
But my brother has 8 planets and the ascendant in water signs. All his l planets oppose JO. hB too.
He as always been a big problem in the family, and has cut all of us, one by one, out of his life over the years.
No one seems to understand why it is so difficult to be with him, or why he can't be with us. But I can see how
hard it must be on him too.
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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #7 - on: 15.02.2010 at 00:57 [UT] »Quote from Lynne on 15.02.2010 at 00:46 [UT]:
I don't understand this very clearly, but I think my brother is the scapegoat of our family.
We all have

B in hard aspect to G, so as a family we don't really do emotion or feelings very well. Lot's of a and fire.

But my brother has 8 planets and the ascendant in water signs. All his

l planets oppose JO. hB too.

He as always been a big problem in the family, and has cut all of us, one by one, out of his life over the years. No one seems tounderstand why it is so difficult to be with him, or why he can't be with us. But I can see how hard it must be on him too.

I'm sure your brother has had to do this to avoid the unbearable pain. I would encourage you to do somereading at the website I mentioned or elsewhere to try to learn how to relate to him in a different way. Who do
you think is the perpetrator of this scapegoating? Who started it? There's usually one person who starts it andothers just follow their lead.
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IP LoggedLynneEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #8 - on: 15.02.2010 at 01:19 [UT] »Quote from Candlewick on 15.02.2010 at 00:57 [UT]:

I'm sure your brother has had to do this to avoid the unbearable pain. I would encourage you to do somereading at the website I mentioned or elsewhere to try to learn how to relate to him in a different way. Who do you think is theperpetrator of this scapegoating? Who started it? There's usually one person who starts it and others just follow their lead.

Yes, that's exactly what he says. I am really the only one in the family he trusts, we have the same ascendant ind, and very similar charts. I am much more Air though.
Who is the perpetrator? Mmm, that's a hard question, most of us would say him! But I think our mother is theoriginal problem from his perspective. He has hB and E in the 4th house. Does there have to be aperpetrator? It seems like a bigger issue than simply being singled out. He is the most intense person I haveever known, and I cannot imagine how painful it must be to feel everything so intensely. But who is responsible
for that........God?
To me it is almost like he was sent to shake us up in our coldness/hardness, but his personality is very difficult
to deal with. He just cannot seem to forgive us for not understanding him. He cannot forgive our parents fornot being what he needed.
It's complicated Candlewick.
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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #9 - on: 15.02.2010 at 01:22 [UT] »Lynne,
I do hope you'll at least start the journey to understanding by reading more about it.
http://www.scapegoat.demon.co.uk/
Your brother probably needs to read it, too. In fact, he must, if he wants to break out of it.
Most people would need a good therapist, I think, to help them start changing.
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Lynne
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #10 - on: 15.02.2010 at 02:05 [UT] »Do you think this 'scapegoating' thing is connected with choosing a victim role?
In my brother's case it seems he sees everything in terms of 'what was done to him'.
For example; Our parents split, and our mother left the home when I was 9, my brother 7, my sister 5. When I
was 15 I was desperate to get out of the crappy little mining town we lived in, and move to the city to live with
Mum and finish high school. So I did, and it was one of those 'right' decisions that I look back on, and wonder
where I found the courage to do it. I just knew I was reaching for a better life.
30 years later my brother still mentions how I 'abandoned' him.
I'm not sure he wants to break out of this dynamic, he doesn't see it as his problem. The fault lies in all thepeople who have hurt him. End of story. Full stop.
I hear what your saying about therapy and reading in order to understand this dynamic, but from experience I
have lost faith in this idea.

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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #11 - on: 15.02.2010 at 02:10 [UT] »Lynne,I understand what you're saying about losing faith in therapy. I've been to more therapists than I cancount...with zero positive results...until now. I'm seeing a psychotherapist who is also an astrologer. She does
not focus on the astrology; she is very skilled as a psychotherapist, but I think knowing astrology helps her tounderstand her clients better.
Good luck in all this. I don't buy the idea that your brother is choosing to be a victim. It's everybody's
problem. Just my 2 cents.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #12 - on: 15.02.2010 at 03:07 [UT] »I haven't studied this subject specifically, but have come upon it many many times in doing readings, especiallyin close relationships.

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MY experience is that those that tend to try to find a scapegoat are definitely...definitly "Saturn impaired" ....
"it's not MY fault...so and so is to blame...she started it..."AND it always sounds and is so adolescent if not 'preadolescent.'
It comes from not wanting to take responsiblility. This issue....not wanting or being able to take responsibility
comes from many sources, and often doesn't start with someone wanting to be cruel to another...it usually
starts with someone NOT WANTING TO BE BLAMED. And the reason for this is usually the fact that as children,
being the one blamed brought very harsh or abusive penalties, either physically, mentally, emotionally or
spiritually.
And this type of person brings this issue into their adult lives, and their ignorance of where this comes from isusually complete because they won't admit they are even DOING this as then they would be admitting they are
to BLAME and therefore responsible, and.............well...........you can see where this is going. A vicious cycle. This type of person usually finds
someone else to get on their bandwagon and then the scapegoat has one more person who blames them andbefore you know it it becomes easier to blame this other person than to deal closely and directly with eachissue.
It can really snowball.
I don't know the answer except silence and detachment until the other people involved realize you won't standfor it.
This sometimes works and sometimes doesn't depending upon the issues and transits involved.
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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #13 - on: 15.02.2010 at 03:18 [UT] »Thanks for chiming in, Lainie. I appreciate your comments.
I guess my sister is "Saturn impaired". She has moon opposite Saturn, ruler of her 3rd house. And my othersister just follows along in her footsteps. She has moon square Saturn. Would these be examples of what you
mean?
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #14 - on: 15.02.2010 at 03:32 [UT] »Yes...a Saturn impaired person hates to say, "It's my fault" " I take full responsibility" "I'm human and i makemistakes" "I'm sorry if my actions caused trouble" "It's just as much my fault as ____(fill in blank.)
And if the other person, the scapegoat doesn't nip it in the bud early, stand up and confront the person for
absolute proof of what is being projected upon them, backs down or cries or hides, or says, "get out of my life.I
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don't need to be abused," then it just continues.
I have done both in my life. Stood my ground and confronted and also divorced family members who wouldn't
take responsibility for their actions. I've even had cousins who tried to change family history by trying, many
years later to repeat the lies and hiding their own actions.
There are consequences for sticking up for yourself, and it better be a war worth fighting.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #15 - on: 15.02.2010 at 11:56 [UT] »very very interesting. It would make sense to have Saturn representing some Scapegoat issues.
Candlewick ~ if you would, go to Waybread's thread concerning fourth house and difficult childhood. I have a
few posts in there and the charts may give insight in to scapegoating. Read Waybreads post there also.
I am going to look at my sister Ellen's chart. She was nearly Psycho and has been the biggest anti-Eyesis
propagandist around.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #16 - on: 15.02.2010 at 12:35 [UT] »Yeppers her Saturn is squared and quincunxed and she has a high concentration of Scorpio in the 12th.
Drama queen deluxe and whiner.
The source of a lot of aggravation for me. I hope Waybread checks this out.
Geez my sister is a B--ch!!!
Even now I still have people ask me if I was like her. I said what are you speaking of??
Come to find out miss Holier than Thou was a two-faced user and a slut of the nth degree.
She has projected her own BS on me. Here I was only 6-8 and I was getting the beatings for what she did.
Somehow that 12th house sneaky convinced the Old Man to go off on me.
I would love to just pound her into the ground for all the crap she did to me. I sublimated alot of it.

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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #17 - on: 15.02.2010 at 13:25 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 15.02.2010 at 03:32 [UT]:
Yes...a Saturn impaired person hates to say, "It's my fault" " I take full responsibility" "I'm human and i make mistakes" "I'm sorry if myactions caused trouble" "It's just as much my fault as ____(fill in blank.)
And if the other person, the scapegoat doesn't nip it in the bud early, stand up and confront the person for absolute proof of what is being
projected upon them, backs down or cries or hides, or says, "get out of my life.I don't need to be abused," then it just continues.
I have done both in my life. Stood my ground and confronted and also divorced family members who wouldn't take responsibility for theiractions. I've even had cousins who tried to change family history by trying, many years later to repeat the lies and hiding their own
actions.

There are consequences for sticking up for yourself, and it better be a war worth fighting.
LainieA Family Scapegoat Extraordinaire here ...
The consequences of sticking up for myself and my mother ~ she was scapegoated by dad, who "whitewashed
his own legs" in a nasty divorce ~ The consequences are severe, especially if you "win" any points or spill
anybody's precious apple cart of "beliefs" in The Family Myth. < definitely the source of my being The
Scapegoat.
I haven't examined it astrologically, but Gm Regulus has been mentioned, and that's a conjunction on my eAsc. with J B all in e 12H ... and most of my life seems dominated by the 12th.
I do hold my father and mother responsible in part for helping create the early "family myth" about me (I was
extremely sensitive and seen as a genius which caused sibling rejection) When I left home at 19 and myparents divorced four years later, scapegoating began in earnest and escalated when I helped mum to get her
alimony payments after dad died.
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vertexMember

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #18 - on: 15.02.2010 at 16:34 [UT] »I'm the family scapegoat. Each of my family members project their negative/shadow qualities on to me. I'm thecause of everything that is going wrong in the family. There are countless examples. For instance, if my father ishaving problems at work, it is somehow my fault. If my mother and father are fighting it is somehow my fault.

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Gender:If my jealous aunt and cousin are lying about me/ spreading rumors about me, it is my fault for even noticing.
My sister et al. is always talking crap about everyone in my extended family, things I usually ignore (I tend to
focus on the positives of people), but if once in the blue moon I say something about someone I am the one
who is labeled the horrible negative one in the family. Hello, I am i Rising, with angular F exactly trine myASC, while my sister is a j rising, with angular GpAC (CpG exact). Yet according to my family labels, mysister is the optimistic one, and I am the negative one.
I think I'm a scapegoat because of my AC exact pI. I in the 12th house, 12 deg away from my ASC.

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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #19 - on: 15.02.2010 at 16:56 [UT] »I am seeing a 4th and 12th house involvement. Each are "hidden" and are either the source or the receiver ofscapegoating. Saturn with adverse seems to show potential for someone to scapegoat and I wonder if this canrelay to the bully?
Could this be why some of us come to Astrology and other metaphysical matters?
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Candlewick
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #20 - on: 15.02.2010 at 19:38 [UT] »Very interesting, everyone!
I was not a scapegoat in childhood; nor did I scapegoat others. I was the oldest, the model child, the big sister,
the honor student, the award-winning musician. My sister was average and a little rebellious.
The scapegoating started after we were both adults, but as I look back to the time when she was 10 and I was
18, I could feel her resentment of me even then. What I remember is her pestering me and annoying the heckout of me. She would mimic me for seemingly hours on end and almost drive me crazy. I was also very, very
close to my mother (BpF, BpC), but my mother and my sister (BnG) did not get along well at all. I feelbad for my sister because I do care about her and I can completely understand how hurtful this must have been
for her. However, I don't think she realizes what she's doing now and how it relates to these childhood hurts. As
she sees it, she is taking care of everyone, has her hand in everyone's business, knows everything about
everybody, stole my inheritance from me (in the "best interests" of our parents), and is now solving all thefamily problems by making sure the old sister (me) gets help.
Stay tuned. I have a plan. She's going to face the music soon. I don't mean that in a malicious way, but a dayof reckoning is imminent.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #21 - on: 15.02.2010 at 20:22 [UT] »I wish you the best Candlewick.
I guess my sister's day of reckoning will come.
Bottom line is regardless I still love her very much and if she ever needed me I would still be there for her.
Kind of Chironic.
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Linda Harris
Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #22 - on: 15.02.2010 at 20:33 [UT] »Myrios' post made me think about the fixed star positions in a chart. This would be a really good research
project for anyone who has charts of 'scapegoats' and a comprehensive list and definition of the fixed stars.
LainiePosts: 17033

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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #23 - on: 15.02.2010 at 20:46 [UT] »I am learning that sometimes there is 'no day of reckoning' ...
Scapegoating simply becomes more savage and vicious as the'fable' of lies and projections and misunderstandings becomes a Family WRIT ... or RITE
The scapegoat's chirotic wound can be ignored for years till something reopens it
and it festers anew till you either suck out the toxin and spit it out,or sear the wound shut with a hot knife forever.
I'm tired of sucking and spitting.
I think I'll head for the hot knife soon and seal this baby up for good.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #24 - on: 15.02.2010 at 20:56 [UT] »Quote from Theseus on 15.02.2010 at 20:46 [UT]:
I am learning that sometimes there is 'no day of reckoning' ...
Scapegoating simply becomes more savage and vicious as the'fable' of lies and projections and misunderstandings becomes a Family WRIT ... or RITE
The scapegoat's chirotic wound can be ignored for years till something reopens it
and it festers anew till you either suck out the toxin and spit it out,or sear the wound shut with a hot knife forever.
I'm tired of sucking and spitting.
I think I'll head for the hot knife soon and seal this baby up for good.
MyriosLike they say, Suck it Up??? The sweetest death is with kindness, and that is what I will do to Ellen.
Theseus, I have tried the Hot Knife several times and thought it was completely cauterized but there wassomething still there.
We were very psychically connected.
Yet she wanted me gone. Love and Death.
I wish that wound of yours to heal.
If I had a blade strong and true, I would let you have it.
And may it be heated by Truth.
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Cloud 9Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #25 - on: 15.02.2010 at 21:39 [UT] »Scapegoating is sometimes but not always a passive-aggressive response, so some of the aspects for passiveaggressive may be used here as well. My mother was the scapegoat in the family as a result of her siblings. Her
Saturn (R) and Mars is both in the 4th house. I'm just adding to the theory that the 4th house may be a clue,
especially for family scapegoating. My mom was very close to her mother who she took care of while still ateen, her siblings were unresponsive in helping, so my mom became sole caretaker. Well, as you can imagine
with the death of my Grandma came all the scapegoating. Although my mom had a difficult childhood, she is
one of the most peaceful and helpful person's I ever known. I think in my family circumstance this caused someof the scapegoating. Sometimes people do try to exploit those who are sensitive, kind, or otherwise nonthreatening. So the person on the end of the scapegoating is often perceived incorrectly, maybe something
about that person creates an aggressive undercurrent in the Scapegoater(s).
I think confronting it and then deciding to let it go is the best way. Life is too short. But each has their own way
dealing with this, just make sure it doesn't affect your health. In my mom's circumstance she decided to write a"peaceful" letter, and it seemed to work.
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Candlewick
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #26 - on: 15.02.2010 at 22:32 [UT] »Quote from Linda Harris on 15.02.2010 at 20:33 [UT]:Myrios' post made me think about the fixed star positions in a chart. This would be a really good research project for anyone who hascharts of 'scapegoats' and a comprehensive list and definition of the fixed stars.
LainieYes. I've always wondered what is the significance of sister's Pluto conjunct my Saturn and both conjunct
Regulus. On her MC and in my 5th house.
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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #27 - on: 15.02.2010 at 22:39 [UT] »Quote from Cloud 9 on 15.02.2010 at 21:39 [UT]:
Scapegoating is sometimes but not always a passive-aggressive response, so some of the aspects for passive-aggressive may be usedhere as well. My mother was the scapegoat in the family as a result of her siblings. Her Saturn (R) and Mars is both in the 4th house. I'mjust adding to the theory that the 4th house may be a clue, especially for family scapegoating. My mom was very close to her mother who
she took care of while still a teen, her siblings were unresponsive in helping, so my mom became sole caretaker. Well, as you can imagine
with the death of my Grandma came all the scapegoating. Although my mom had a difficult childhood, she is one of the most peacefuland helpful person's I ever known. I think in my family circumstance this caused some of the scapegoating. Sometimes people do try to
exploit those who are sensitive, kind, or otherwise non-threatening. So the person on the end of the scapegoating is often perceived
incorrectly, maybe something about that person creates an aggressive undercurrent in the Scapegoater(s).
I think confronting it and then deciding to let it go is the best way. Life is too short. But each has their own way dealing with this, justmake sure it doesn't affect your health. In my mom's circumstance she decided to write a "peaceful" letter, and it seemed to work.

I suppose what I wrote about my sister's day of reckoning sounded vicious, but that's not what I meant. WhatI meant was that I feel we are getting close to talking about it directly so she at least realizes what she's done.
I have no desire to be vicious or vengeful, but I do intend to keep at it until it stops. My own family (meaning
my children and their spouses and children) has been affected by it. I see resolving my relationship with mysister as the key to resolving tensions in other relationships, so it must be done. I will seek my therapist's help
in this.
I was also a caretaker for my mother until my sister took over. After my mother's illness and death, thescapegoating did get worse, as your mom's did.

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Rainbow Seeker
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #28 - on: 15.02.2010 at 22:57 [UT] »Quote from Candlewick on 15.02.2010 at 22:32 [UT]:
Quote from Linda Harris on 15.02.2010 at 20:33 [UT]:Myrios' post made me think about the fixed star positions in a chart. This would be a really good research project foranyone who has charts of 'scapegoats' and a comprehensive list and definition of the fixed stars.
LainieYes. I've always wondered what is the significance of sister's Pluto conjunct my Saturn and both conjunct Regulus. On her MC and in my
5th house.

Well ,Liz Green talked about Pluto and how some issues (daemons) seem to run in Families in the book "Astrology of Fate' though I don't understand it well.,Scapegoating maybe be a daemon that runs in societies (my conclusion) because its at home in families.
It seems to get into the reason and causes of scapegoating. If you want to hide beauty, you create uglyness.
Scapegoating is a behavior used to create such conditions....
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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #29 - on: 15.02.2010 at 23:01 [UT] »Quote:
If you want to hide beauty, you create uglyness. Scapegoating is a behavior used to create such conditions....

Well said.
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Rainbow Seeker
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #30 - on: 15.02.2010 at 23:07 [UT] »"If any part of someone's self-hood should happen to break the Greed-Lust barrier, an evil sphere entitled<em>ugliness</em> awaits entry. By <em>Ugliness</em> we are to understand inharmony,unbalance,
distortion, inaccuracy and allied meanings. For instance, this would signify that untruth could be classified as
ugly, so might any form of of deliberate misrepresentation or vilification. It could be More widely defined as
blasphemy against beauty. Any factor which might be taked to make life seem horrible, miserable, wretched andrepulsive. That is <em>ugliness</em> in its worst possible sense. It implies denial or denigration of divinity in
man or otherwise, and could be another form of materialism in more subtle shape."...."Once upon a time there was a saying" as ugly as sin," because sin was supposed to separate us from
divinity. It is almost as though we use ugliness quite deliberately to disguise from ourselves the beauty werefuse to face. Worse still, we will not even recognize ugliness as such. It is not the ugliness which horrifies,
appalls, revolts, or upsets us which is really dangerous, because that would mean we should reject it
uncompromisingly and seek something better straight away. The deadly type of <em>Ugliness</em> is thatwhich we accept on purpose to screen our somewhat hideous states of unsatisfactory self-hood from theblessed beauty which would show this up only too clearly. Rather like painting windows with grimy designs tohide the shoddy and depressing stock inside. One might say we surround ourselves with muck so that our own
dirty messes don't seem as bad as they are. That is what <em>ugliness</em> means. Making the worst ofourselves on purpose to avoid perfection." William Grey "The Tree of Evil".
With Saturn on Regulas, maybe you have a task of a high order. Note that Regulas was representative of theArchangel "Raphiel".....
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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #31 - on: 15.02.2010 at 23:17 [UT] »I has been scape goated by many astrologists.

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Candlewick
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #32 - on: 15.02.2010 at 23:32 [UT] »LOLBack to top
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Re: Scapegoating

Waybread

Member« Reply #33 - on: 16.02.2010 at 07:33 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 15.02.2010 at 11:56 [UT]:very very interesting. It would make sense to have Saturn representing some Scapegoat issues.
Candlewick ~ if you would, go to Waybread's thread concerning fourth house and difficult childhood. I have a few posts in there and thecharts may give insight in to scapegoating. Read Waybreads post there also.
I am going to look at my sister Ellen's chart. She was nearly Psycho and has been the biggest anti-Eyesis propagandist around.

Eyesis, your family dynamics are really interesting. I looked at your parents' and your charts on the 4th house
Posts: 14740
Gender:thread. A Plutonian theme runs through your family: least with your mother, and most with your sister so far
as I can tell. I think your sister has the most difficult chart. Whatever difficulties you faced as children, sheprobably had the least capability of dealing with ithem in a constructive way. I realize that it would take a lot
more patience than I have not to feel bitter towards her, but consider:
She's got all those 12th house planets in Scorpio, facing a big square from Pluto. The 12th is the "house of
self-undoing"; and the sun in that house can have a lot of difficulty because it is one's ego/identity that
constantly gets undone--notably with that Pluto square demanding ongoing, profound change in her life--andbeing none too gentle about it.
Then, as you know, Scorpios tend to find out who they are by testing the limits of other people. For people on
the receiving end, this is like the saying, "Your right to swing a fist stops at my face." Sometimes Scorpios
have to metaphorically swing their fist to see where their boundaries end and someone else's begin.
But a thwarted Scorpio [as a small child would no doubt be in a ifficult family] tends to try to sting otherpeople, then if that doesn't produce the desired result, she will sting herself. This becomes very toxic.
Interestingly, with your sister's sun conjunct Venus [a placement she shares with your mother] she probably
did/does identify [A] with her artistic abilities [D].

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Cloud 9Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #34 - on: 16.02.2010 at 13:05 [UT] »Quote from Candlewick on 15.02.2010 at 22:39 [UT]:

I suppose what I wrote about my sister's day of reckoning sounded vicious, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was that I feel weare getting close to talking about it directly so she at least realizes what she's done. I have no desire to be vicious or vengeful, but I do
intend to keep at it until it stops.

Hi Candlewick, you didn't sound vicious. I definitely can relate to your situation, confronting is the best method
for peace of mind. Take care
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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #35 - on: 16.02.2010 at 14:26 [UT] »[quote author=Waybread link=1266180197/20#33 date=1266305599]Quote from Eyesis on 15.02.2010 at
11:56 [UT]:

Then, as you know, Scorpios tend to find out who they are by testing the limits of other people. For people on the receiving end, this is
like the saying, "Your right to swing a fist stops at my face." Sometimes Scorpios have to metaphorically swing their fist to see where
their boundaries end and someone else's begin.
But a thwarted Scorpio [as a small child would no doubt be in a ifficult family] tends to try to sting other people, then if that doesn't
produce the desired result, she will sting herself. This becomes very toxic.
].

I know my mother, (scapegoated too) falls into this "stinging herself" behaviour. I will look at her scorpio.
Thanks for this, Waybread!
Thanks for the hot knife, Eyesis.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #36 - on: 16.02.2010 at 16:57 [UT] »You are so welcome. Every little bit counts.
Yeah, my sis wanted to make sure I wouldn't show my talents at all.
Well I ain't that old yet.
I still play guitar by ear which is impeccable, I still watercolor, I still write, esp. in the paper, but my poetry has
always been my stuff. (thanx theseus for rousing her!!!)And for all my accidents oh how I can still carousel around the room.
Man, I feel like I am having a coming out party or something.

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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #37 - on: 16.02.2010 at 17:15 [UT] »Coming Out !!! Yeah .... Let's all come out ... all the chi-rot-i-call-eye wound-dead.

Lizzy's G is in 3rdH (brethren) score-pie-O ...
o 12H eC (she's a fiery one, blows fast when angry)
also o F ...

Her K and J are within seconds of EXACT conjunction at the critical 15* d degree < as per the the thema
mundi placement for HORA/WOMAN ...

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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #38 - on: 16.02.2010 at 18:05 [UT] »That is Intense!!! I hope Lizzie is doing OK.
Those Hora, gotta love em!!!

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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #39 - on: 16.02.2010 at 19:00 [UT] »She's in a lock-up at a medical unit, placed with advanced dementia patients ... way out of her true level of'memory impaired' ... the 'system' is eating her alive... she can't last long there, she will go insane.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #40 - on: 16.02.2010 at 19:16 [UT] »Crap!!!!!
The World crushed her much like the Hora!!!!!!
FTW It is time for it to be A Woman's World
Matriarchal and All.
Maybe this is the lesson of Jj
Everyone thinks it is money, but no, it is the Rising of those Oppressed by Family Friends Society. Virgo
Rising.f
No More Lizzies!!! No More being crushed under the Boot.
Women's Lib isn't Abortions and Crap.
It is Woman Realized!!
Yes Fauve. It is a LifeWork.
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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #41 - on: 16.02.2010 at 19:44 [UT] »Eyesis, eye am with ewe all the way.
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #42 - on: 16.02.2010 at 20:32 [UT] »Quote from Theseus on 16.02.2010 at 19:44 [UT]:
Eyesis, eye am with ewe all the way.
MyriosYes! thank you Myrios!!
I am experiencing some really potent things that are taking me in so many places.
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Waybread

Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #43 - on: 17.02.2010 at 07:06 [UT] »Quote from Eyesis on 16.02.2010 at 20:32 [UT]:
Quote from Theseus on 16.02.2010 at 19:44 [UT]:
Eyesis, eye am with ewe all the way.
MyriosYes! thank you Myrios!!
I am experiencing some really potent things that are taking me in so many places.

Posts: 14740
Gender:May the Force be with you!

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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #44 - on: 17.02.2010 at 09:48 [UT] »Yes I was having a Moment.
I know for myself it was a very liberating moment when I stopped letting myself be the butt end of a bad joke.
I wonder how Progressions play in people's charts who do decide to stand up for themselves.
Waybread, I believe there was some type of Catharsis going on Yesterday and I myself want to thank you for
putting things out there.
Very seldom do we get to see the fruits of Labor.
Ya done good and I Thank You.
May the force be with All.
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Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #45 - on: 20.02.2010 at 08:32 [UT] »From the time i can remember being in 1st grade onwards, i've noted a pattern of some of my peers
projecting intensely upon me, particularly in group situations. (in groups, degrees of negativity or positivity
become amplified, making scapegoating an easier mode to fall into and potentially more extreme).
I was a rather quiet, shy, and well mannered kid who kept mostly to himself.

Yet i got picked on and picked

on by many through the years--eventually i got in touch with Mars, albeit in an extreme, Uranian and Scorpio
combo sense at times whilst a child.
In most respects i felt like and identified quite a bit with the main character in that movie "Powder"--i was
unusually aware, intelligent, intuitive, sensitive, unusual looking, and aware of spiritual truths from an earlyage. The difference is that i eventually turned to defending myself and aggression. Powder was definitely
more intune and loving than i. For a time, i returned violence for violence rather than turn the other cheek,
and i attracted more violence for having violence and anger within.
Sometimes i think some of this was pre-set up, chosen, or agreed to to help me/my larger Soul essence
come more into my Virgo/closely cusping Leo 1st House N. Node. I don't view myself as a victim at all, butneither do i believe that i somehow deserved all of this for something i did wrong. It basically came down tothat i was very different in certain ways than most around me, they and i sensed it and they wanted me toknow i was different, as it made some of them uncomfortable. When insecure and immature people get overly
uncomfortable, well some lash out.
The projection and scapegoating has become more interesting and underground and basically Plutonian like as
i've gotten more spiritually intune, and interact with more older and supposedly more mature peers. (Hah! inmany cases, the older a person gets, the more spiritually immature and inflexible they become and aging is anouter indication of the degree of this or not).
What i found out though is that many people despite their physical age maturity are more or less still scaredand insecure children beneath all the outer appearances.
If someone or something comes along that makes them uncomfortable, they don't understand or makes themfeel bad about themselves, many feel the need to lash out against that which makes them feel uncomfortableor bad about themselves.
I don't think we can narrow these down to a more specific astro. signature or trend so much. It has more to
do with polarization between unusually fast vibratory patterns and slower vibratory patterns in different people
in interaction and co-mingling of energies within the physical plane. In some cases, it could be due more to
specific karma, so there might be more specific astro signatures involved.
Charts could possibly give some general clues to this, but due to the issue of freewill, not always. There arepeople born with a chart that outlines an overall slower vibratory pattern, but use their freewill consistently
positively and grow much spiritually in this life, and thus be more prone to such scapegoating and projection.
And probably more rarely, vice versa.
Also, this stuff happens to some degree or another amongst many people, and oft times many people
experience both the recieving and outputting end of this (though usually definite trends towards one more thanthe other).
It is highly rare for a person to experience only the former and more so extremely.
it to others, albeit usually in a more mild manner than i usually receive.

I know i occasionally do

A case belonging to that rare category of someone experiencing this particularly extremely, but not dishing it
out at all is the case of Yeshua Ben Yosef (Jesus Christ).
This man so attuned to such pure Light within, and all seeming darkness (lack of luminosity of light) within
was so regererated and the vibratory patterns raised to such a high degree, that this intense, pure Light reallypolarized with, and lit up the shadows in others.
Those with little desire to regenerate their own lacking light dynamics and especially those who wereparticularly lacking in a lot of attunement to a more pure Light, reacted VERY strongly towards him in a very
negative way often. Intense emotional dislike and hatred. Seeing red. So much so that they wanted him
dead. Many others just didn't much get or like him, and thought him weird.
Course they had many reasons and rationalizations for wanting him to be out of the scene, and of course felt
themselves to be in the right. They called him all kinds of things from crazy, deluded, idiotic/stupid,
possessed, evil, and all because he was different and lived, spoke, and taught a different way. Because hechose pure Light and they didn't. Because he rose above suffering and tried to help others rise above it as well,and they refused to acknowledge their own suffering and their own responsibility in creating it. Those withwhom his energies most polarized with, plotted to have him killed.
What a case of scapegoating, none more intense or extreme that i can think of.
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Candlewick
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #46 - on: 20.02.2010 at 08:55 [UT] »Direct Jupiterian,What a powerful, thought-provoking post!
I agree with you that Jesus is the ultimate example of a scapegoat.
On Him was laid the iniquity of us all.
Thanks!
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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #47 - on: 20.02.2010 at 17:45 [UT] »Yes. Thanks, DJ.
School days remembered here, too. Different "name" different "background" different "intellect" different"soul" different "vibratory rate" different "aura"...
just "different" ...
Pin the TALE / TAIL on the donkey.
Herdspeak.
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direct Jupitarian
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #48 - on: 20.02.2010 at 18:26 [UT] »Thanks Candlewick and Theseus.
Theseus, i can understand why you would use the term herdspeak--i sometimes have similar thoughts andfeelings. Yet in my more centered moments i also realize that all of this is due to the woundedness of
individuals and the larger humanity, and in those moments i feel compassion for it all.
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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #49 - on: 20.02.2010 at 18:35 [UT] »does this also apply to all the mantra's the monks chant when seeking? i suppose it does, but it also shows
there are set paths towards the goal and not just randomness and counting on luck.

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Pearl Diver
Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #50 - on: 21.02.2010 at 14:10 [UT] »http://www.victorianweb.org/painting/whh/paintings/scapegoat.jpg

Posts: 957
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Theseus

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #51 - on: 21.02.2010 at 16:51 [UT] »Quote from direct Jupitarian on 20.02.2010 at 18:26 [UT]:Thanks Candlewick and Theseus.
Theseus, i can understand why you would use the term herdspeak--i sometimes have similar thoughts and feelings. Yet in my morecentered moments i also realize that all of this is due to the woundedness of individuals and the larger humanity, and in those moments ifeel compassion for it all.

In my most centred moments I re*cognise
dangerous stuff for the "outsider" ...

the absolute POWER of herdspeak ... and it can be very

Consider the blind rage of a single b individual for example, with herdspeak blinders on, in full CHARGE of asituation where the support of specialised herdspeak (i.e. The Medical Establishment) can and is being
implemented to support a point of view or opinion which meets the goal of both the establishment and theblind, care-less b, but thwarts the personal, rights, goals or interests of an "other" who's "difference" has madeher a "scapegoat" for the herd ...
Pearl Diver, the picture of the scaped goat is hebraic.
Bandit, A chant is a repetitive ritual to bring about a certain goal.
The best are WORDLESS ... om ... sounded to centre the being in a benign state or "nirvana" .
WORDS defeat this pure*pose.
Words alone can and do create mental, emotional, even physical PAIN. They are never harm-less, because they
are always LOADED with some purpose of "the other".

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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #52 - on: 21.02.2010 at 17:04 [UT] »Quote from Theseus on 21.02.2010 at 16:51 [UT]:

Words alone can and do create mental, emotional, even physical PAIN. They are never harm-less, because they are always LOADED withsome purpose of "the other".

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EyesisEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #53 - on: 21.02.2010 at 17:13 [UT] »Quote from Candlewick on 20.02.2010 at 08:55 [UT]:
Direct Jupiterian,What a powerful, thought-provoking post!
I agree with you that Jesus is the ultimate example of a scapegoat.
On Him was laid the iniquity of us all.
Thanks!

Yes Candlewick!!
Thank you and DJ for pointing this out!!
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Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #54 - on: 21.02.2010 at 19:25 [UT] »Quote from Theseus on 21.02.2010 at 16:51 [UT]:
Quote from direct Jupitarian on 20.02.2010 at 18:26 [UT]:Thanks Candlewick and Theseus.
Theseus, i can understand why you would use the term herdspeak--i sometimes have similar thoughts and feelings. Yet in
my more centered moments i also realize that all of this is due to the woundedness of individuals and the larger humanity,
and in those moments i feel compassion for it all.

Posts: 957
Gender:In my most centred moments I re*cognise the absolute POWER of herdspeak ... and it can be very dangerous stuff for the "outsider" ...
Consider the blind rage of a single

b individual for example, with herdspeak blinders on, in full CHARGE of a situation where the supportof specialised herdspeak (i.e. The Medical Establishment) can and is being implemented to support a point of view or opinion which meetsthe goal of both the establishment and the blind, care-lessb, but thwarts the personal, rights, goals or interests of an "other" who's"difference" has made her a "scapegoat" for the herd ...

Pearl Diver, the picture of the scaped goat is hebraic.
Bandit, A chant is a repetitive ritual to bring about a certain goal.
The best are WORDLESS ... om ... sounded to centre the being in a benign state or "nirvana" .
WORDS defeat this pure*pose.
Words alone can and do create mental, emotional, even physical PAIN. They are never harm-less, because they are always LOADED withsome purpose of "the other".

MyriosBeing decidedly naive in the arena of religious symbolism, I have no idea about the ramifications of this pictureof a goat being Hebraic.
However, I just found it in a book about the pre-Raphaelites, and was interested inHolman Hunt's profound portrayal of this potent symbol and thought it was a nice picture to hang on the wallof this thread.
BaaaaaAs to scapegoating... I'll be back!
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Pearl Diver

Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #55 - on: 22.02.2010 at 22:20 [UT] »Scapegoating - the denial of responsibility - will generally occur as the corollary of a need. Something that the collective, be that the family, the village,
the group, the country, the workforce, must observe, as it does exist... and yet it cannot be observed, because
the cultural collusion of the group won't allow it to be consciously admitted. Thus is required a non-person, andsomething dehumanised and outlawed, on which to cast the denied forces.
In an increasingly conscious world it could almost be seen as a privilege to occupy such a role... a privilege, aPosts: 957
Gender:calling, a burden, a responsibility. You are a vessel through which the unknown is seeking to make itself known.
Astrologically this could relate to any planetary/sign energy that isn't part of the status quo. A woman in a very
traditional family who is sparky and iconoclastic with strong fire signs. A piscean dreamer in military school. A
light-bearing uranian in a world of plutonians. Anything, really.
People's ignorance is hard to bear, but ultimately if you find yourself in a scapegoat situation the best bet is tobefriend in yourself that which is deemed unacceptable by the group, cleanse it in your mind's "I" of whatever
distortions it has undergone through the majority's negative appraisal, and then hold it up to the world... andsoon others may befriend you, seeking to know what it is you have found.
And then share it...

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mikalek
Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #56 - on: 23.02.2010 at 14:43 [UT] »EScape Goat !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scape_goat- Escape the Goat. j G
escape = avoiding, denial, blaming, trying to disown.
Saturn : Society, the demands of reality - of having a body, the collective demands, what is deemed 'normal' ina given group, to fit into some pre defined conditions. (G exalt g - mental, air, learning and being told what
to do - and do it, fit in - or not. )escape responsibility, escape consequences, to escape what should be done - with our life, our ambition. theLaw and order.
Posts: 1473
Gender:So when we escape our ultimately responsibility towards ourself OR how and what the group think we should be , The 'group' will try to punish us. - if we are different from thenorm.
or We by our 'physical' actions we can punish ourself - unconscious or conscious - religion uses it.
Saturn is the spell, the course, the depression into disbelief forced by society or lack of skills.
but he is the Cure as well, as every planet carries his own challenge and resolution.
so by setting Limits and/ or taking a Rational view of things, seen from an bigger and higher perspective andfrom more than one angel g valuing what is realistic and doable ..... and then decision and do it - trusting
yourself in your perspective of reality and trusting one's owns Limits ...

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Stephen Baxter

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #57 - on: 23.02.2010 at 14:59 [UT] »I suppose by scapegoat, you mean someone who is punished or accused as a substitute for another. The
scapegoat is either innocent or relatively blameless.
I am thinking of a Liz Green book that is a transcript of a lecture about the outer planets and their cycles. In it
she associated Pluto/Saturn with the theme of scapegoats or scapegoating--to the best of my recollection.
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Candlewick
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #58 - on: 24.02.2010 at 01:21 [UT] »Quote from Pearl Diver on 22.02.2010 at 22:20 [UT]:
Scapegoating - the denial of responsibility - will generally occur as the corollary of a need. Something that the collective, be that the family, the village, the group, the country, theworkforce, must observe, as it does exist... and yet it cannot be observed, because the cultural collusion of the group won't allow it to be
consciously admitted. Thus is required a non-person, and something dehumanised and outlawed, on which to cast the denied forces.
In an increasingly conscious world it could almost be seen as a privilege to occupy such a role... a privilege, a calling, a burden, a
responsibility. You are a vessel through which the unknown is seeking to make itself known. Astrologically this could relate to any
planetary/sign energy that isn't part of the status quo. A woman in a very traditional family who is sparky and iconoclastic with strong fire
signs. A piscean dreamer in military school. A light-bearing uranian in a world of plutonians. Anything, really.
People's ignorance is hard to bear, but ultimately if you find yourself in a scapegoat situation the best bet is to befriend in yourself thatwhich is deemed unacceptable by the group, cleanse it in your mind's "I" of whatever distortions it has undergone through the majority's
negative appraisal, and then hold it up to the world... and soon others may befriend you, seeking to know what it is you have found.
And then share it...

YES! Very well put. I completely agree.
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Candlewick

Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #59 - on: 24.02.2010 at 01:24 [UT] »Quote from Stephen Baxter on 23.02.2010 at 14:59 [UT]:
I suppose by scapegoat, you mean someone who is punished or accused as a substitute for another. The scapegoat is either innocent or
relatively blameless.
I am thinking of a Liz Green book that is a transcript of a lecture about the outer planets and their cycles. In it she associatedPluto/Saturn with the theme of scapegoats or scapegoating--to the best of my recollection.

Yes, I think there is the tendency to view it that way, but I think in the religious symbolism of the Hebrews, thescapegoat was "banished" forever and was the very symbol of sin being cast out. (I need to read up on this tomake sure this is correct.)
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Theseus
Ex Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #60 - on: 24.02.2010 at 17:32 [UT] »Quote from Pearl Diver on 21.02.2010 at 19:25 [UT]:Being decidedly naive in the arena of religious symbolism, I have no idea about the ramifications of this picture of a goat being Hebraic.
However, I just found it in a book about the pre-Raphaelites, and was interested in Holman Hunt's profound portrayal of this potent
symbol and thought it was a nice picture to hang on the wall of this thread.
BaaaaaAs to scapegoating... I'll be back!

PD / Just to clarify, the zippered mouth was to indicate my own mouth, not yours !!!
With reference to 'hebraic' origins for 'scapegoating' ~I do see enormous portent in the origins of the symbolism 'scapegoat' coming from hebraic origins, but itwould get me in trouble to say more, thus the zippered mouth.

Bandit, I acknowledge your comment about the scapegoating of I ... and I agree.
Lilith is scapegoated too, and probably N.
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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #61 - on: 24.02.2010 at 17:35 [UT] »Quote from Candlewick on 24.02.2010 at 01:24 [UT]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 23.02.2010 at 14:59 [UT]:
I suppose by scapegoat, you mean someone who is punished or accused as a substitute for another. The scapegoat is either
innocent or relatively blameless.
I am thinking of a Liz Green book that is a transcript of a lecture about the outer planets and their cycles. In it she
associated Pluto/Saturn with the theme of scapegoats or scapegoating--to the best of my recollection.

Yes, I think there is the tendency to view it that way, but I think in the religious symbolism of the Hebrews, the scapegoat was "banished"
forever and was the very symbol of sin being cast out. (I need to read up on this to make sure this is correct.)"Cast Out" = Lilith M ... halved, blacked, and pinned to the cross of Sin (Moon=Sin).
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Virgo Dei
Genetrix

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #62 - on: 24.02.2010 at 18:29 [UT] »MemberQuote from Theseus on 24.02.2010 at 17:35 [UT]:
Quote from Candlewick on 24.02.2010 at 01:24 [UT]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 23.02.2010 at 14:59 [UT]:
I suppose by scapegoat, you mean someone who is punished or accused as a substitute for another. The
scapegoat is either innocent or relatively blameless.
I am thinking of a Liz Green book that is a transcript of a lecture about the outer planets and their cycles. In
it she associated Pluto/Saturn with the theme of scapegoats or scapegoating--to the best of my recollection.

Yes, I think there is the tendency to view it that way, but I think in the religious symbolism of the Hebrews, the scapegoat
was "banished" forever and was the very symbol of sin being cast out. (I need to read up on this to make sure this iscorrect.)

Posts: 4677
"Cast Out" = Lilith

M ... halved, blacked, and pinned to the cross of Sin (Moon=Sin).

MyriosWell, then I must be double cursed! I have Lilith at 17 Leo-- conjunct my Moon at 18 Leo-- and My 12th House
Neptune at 29 Scorpio conjuncts my ASC at 4 Sagittarius.
But, I can't say I've ever been a scapegoat..... now, the object of some pretty INTENSE scary projection stuff?
ummmm.. yeah.
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Re: Scapegoating« Reply #63 - on: 24.02.2010 at 20:02 [UT] »Quote from Juliet on 24.02.2010 at 18:29 [UT]:
Quote from Theseus on 24.02.2010 at 17:35 [UT]:
Quote from Candlewick on 24.02.2010 at 01:24 [UT]:
Quote from Stephen Baxter on 23.02.2010 at 14:59 [UT]:
I suppose by scapegoat, you mean someone who is punished or accused as a substitute foranother. The scapegoat is either innocent or relatively blameless.
I am thinking of a Liz Green book that is a transcript of a lecture about the outer planets andtheir cycles. In it she associated Pluto/Saturn with the theme of scapegoats or scapegoating--tothe best of my recollection.

Yes, I think there is the tendency to view it that way, but I think in the religious symbolism of the Hebrews,
the scapegoat was "banished" forever and was the very symbol of sin being cast out. (I need to read up on
this to make sure this is correct.)

Juliet, they often go hand in hand (and are very related to each other). I guess with scapegoating, it's usually more of acollective expression, and more typical projection is often more individual and individualized.
"Cast Out" = Lilith

M ... halved, blacked, and pinned to the cross of Sin (Moon=Sin).

MyriosWell, then I must be double cursed! I have Lilith at 17 Leo-- conjunct my Moon at 18 Leo-- and My 12th House Neptune at 29 Scorpio
conjuncts my ASC at 4 Sagittarius.
But, I can't say I've ever been a scapegoat..... now, the object of some pretty INTENSE scary projection stuff? ummmm.. yeah.

They often go hand in hand (and are very related), but i guess with scapegoating, it's more of a collective orgroup phenomena, and more typical projection is often much more individual.
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Rainbow Seeker
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Re: Scapegoating« Reply #64 - on: 24.02.2010 at 20:20 [UT] »Maybe your sister, thinks your "Ms Perfect". That what tricksters try to do is expose our vunerabilities. Maybe
you never got down and smoked a joint with your sister, or something like that.

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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #65 - on: 24.02.2010 at 20:34 [UT] »Quote from Theseus on 24.02.2010 at 17:32 [UT]:
Lilith is scapegoated too, and probablyN.

i think this is being mixed up with religious belief systems and the denial of God. people that except spirituality
and have experience of a spiritual nature can "see" the meanings behind the effects of these two objects.
the scapegoating is of a complete denial of spirit.
be at peace and the truth will set you free.
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TheseusEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #66 - on: 25.02.2010 at 16:34 [UT] »Quote from Rainbow Seeker on 24.02.2010 at 20:20 [UT]:Maybe your sister, thinks your "Ms Perfect". That what tricksters try to do is expose our vunerabilities. Maybe you never got down andsmoked a joint with your sister, or something like that.

Is this addressed to me?
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Theseus

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Re: Scapegoating« Reply #67 - on: 25.02.2010 at 16:45 [UT] »Quote from bandit on 24.02.2010 at 20:34 [UT]:
Quote from Theseus on 24.02.2010 at 17:32 [UT]:
Lilith is scapegoated too, and probablyN.

i think this is being mixed up with religious belief systems and the denial of God. people that except spirituality and have experience of a
spiritual nature can "see" the meanings behind the effects of these two objects.
the scapegoating is of a complete denial of spirit.
be at peace and the truth will set you free.

Bandit,Scapegoating is performed by a collective ... while the goat is the sole victim... I think it is you who are'mixing' things here. The goat plays the role of the 'sacrificed one' ... like "Jesus" in Christian lore, as has been
pointed out already by DJ.
I could have sworn a while back, that I knew a "Juliet" here who was a "victim" ~ wrongfully fired by her
employers ...
... but you are young yet ... there's plenty of time left in your life for you to find where'scapegoating' may occur ...
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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #68 - on: 25.02.2010 at 17:13 [UT] »here is an example of being ganged up upon and my defence. i call this scapegoating.
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1264119284/60

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Re: Scapegoating« Reply #69 - on: 25.02.2010 at 17:31 [UT] »Quote from bandit on 25.02.2010 at 17:13 [UT]:
here is an example of being ganged up upon and my defence. i call this scapegoating.
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1264119284/80#80

Bandit,
It is only in your imagination that you are being ganged up on!
Posts: 3870
Gender:

You are disrespectful for other people's view.
Anyone voicing a different view than you, you immediately name as an attacker.

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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #70 - on: 25.02.2010 at 17:33 [UT] »why do you follow my postings and disagree, and then point out that i am imagining being attacked?

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Re: Scapegoating« Reply #71 - on: 25.02.2010 at 17:38 [UT] »Quote from bandit on 25.02.2010 at 17:33 [UT]:
why do you follow my postings and disagree, and then point out that i am imagining being attacked?

I will follow your postings because you are posting links to what I have written in other discussions. I like toknow where I am quoted.
Posts: 3870
Gender:I think that it is intentionally very rude to post a link to another discussion and describing it as an example ofan attack on you.
You are free to file a complaint.

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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #72 - on: 25.02.2010 at 17:39 [UT] »why are you following me? what do you seek?

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banditEx Member

Re: Scapegoating« Reply #73 - on: 25.02.2010 at 17:49 [UT] »Quote from _Tosh_ on 25.02.2010 at 17:38 [UT]:
Quote from bandit on 25.02.2010 at 17:33 [UT]:
why do you follow my postings and disagree, and then point out that i am imagining being attacked?

I will follow your postings because you are posting links to what I have written in other discussions. I like to know where I am quoted.
I think that it is intentionally very rude to post a link to another discussion and describing it as an example of an attack on you.
You are free to file a complaint.

if you return to the thread i linked to and read where the thread got side tracked you will realize this was not of
my making but you accuse me of such. you then accuse me of proselytizing, where it is clear to any reader istate i believe in astrology and its methods of operation and are confirming such.
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