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Give me Liberty! (Read 922 times)

butterflye
Ex Member

Give me Liberty!
« on: 05.07.2010 at 17:23 [UT+1] »In light of yesterday's Independence Day holiday in the US, I want to start a discussion on the topic of liberty...
freedom in all its forms.
From immigrating to the US after growing up in the communist Soviet Union to shunning organized religion infavor of my own spiritual search, the subject of freedom lies close to my heart. All my life I have addressed
what it means to be free... physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
Some things we can control, others we can't. So says Saturn.
Some rules are meant to be broken, according to Uranus.
Jupiter bids me to expand my mind.
Neptune propels me to dream.
Venus opens my heart.
And Mars gives me the courage to follow it.
Pluto has me face the naked truth.
and Mercury teaches me the value of remaining a student in life.
All these planets have aided me in the actualization of Freedom. The ultimate freedom, which is my inalienable
right.
What does freedom mean to you and how has this played out in your life experience?
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #1 - on: 05.07.2010 at 19:07 [UT+1] »Astrologically Saturn in i trining the Leo part of my stellium headed by O ~My Freedom lies in Giving others the same Freedom I wish for myself.
To take responsibility for my actions and accept the consequences therein.
Freedom is that NOONE pays my way by any means or fashion, I pay for my own way therefore I answer tonoone but myself. And I am a much harder judge of myself than anyone else. JmAf.
Lastly Prejudice and Judgementality are anathema to my schema. I judge each by their Actions not by what
they are.
A person's character is demostrated by their actions. Until someone does me wrong I pass NO Judgement.
And as far as America we are still somewhat free, but not as free as before invention of the Fed and Welfare.
btw Didn't you say you were from England in another thread???
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butterflye
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #2 - on: 05.07.2010 at 19:13 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 05.07.2010 at 19:07 [UT+1]:
btw Didn't you say you were from England in another thread???

No, I never said that. I've been in the US since immigrating, other than a few trips abroad.. never to Englandthough.
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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #3 - on: 05.07.2010 at 21:14 [UT+1] »freedom.....
it is mostly freedom to express myself in actions and words that I value. I hold the freedom to think pretty
securely right now. But I recognize that propaganda of all sorts... from people telling me what political party ishonest to people telling me at what age I should plan on dying .... this kind of propaganda inundates me andcan leave me as a mental slave to what other people think. So to be free of that, I value 'common wisdom' no
more and no less than any other wisdom. One could just as well become a slave to 'contrary wisdom' byrejecting out of hand 'common wisdom'. So it is a Libra balance that will help to keep me free in this sense.
At the moment, I am feeing enslaved by my own choices... 'golden handcuffs' as they are sometimes called. I
have a great job; I like it; but I want to change..... to move from one highly technical industry to one thatinvolves clean energy/clean water. And changing has financial implications. But I have the beginnings of a plan
to make a change anyhow. It will require hard work and some sacrifice. But as they say..... freedom is not free.
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judyanne
Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #4 - on: 05.07.2010 at 21:17 [UT+1] »I am fond of saying, "You're not the boss of me."
Except, of course, I can't say that to my actual boss who really is the boss of me. But only because I need themoney and they pay me well.
Yes, I guess you could say I'm a bit of a rebel.

k MC
iA
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vertexMember

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #5 - on: 05.07.2010 at 22:54 [UT+1] »Hi Butterflye,
Freedom is such a broad subject.....
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For me, freedom is 1) realizing that having some sort of authority over you or bounded/constrained bysomething in some capacity is an intrinsic part of life AND 2) having that some sort of authority overyou/constraints put on you, doesn't mean that you aren't or can't be free mentally.
Really... Aren't we bounded by something, unless we are dead?
Even that is conditional....what if Judgment Day is true, then there is no freedom in death either. Or what if
reincarnation is true, the one has to do it all over again, thus be bounded once again. I guess one can be fully
free if there is infinite nothingness after death.
Sorry for being so "out there". But "freedom" is sooo broad.

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Ed Falis
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #6 - on: 05.07.2010 at 23:07 [UT+1] »"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'...".
That's lyric has become a bit of a cliche, but it's actually a very profound statement. Think of what's left when
we lose all our various self-importances.
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Steve3

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #7 - on: 05.07.2010 at 23:17 [UT+1] »wherever Kristofferson/Foster got those lyrics, there is alot of truth in them. I think there are other forms of
freedom but certainly the 'nothin left to lose' kind can open up a personal freedom that you can't get to by anyother path. Granted, having nothing may limit one's options too so 'nothin left to lose' is no panacea forobtaining freedom.

Quote from Ed Falis on 05.07.2010 at 23:07 [UT+1]:"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'...".
That's lyric has become a bit of a cliche, but it's actually a very profound statement. Think of what's left when we lose all our various selfimportances.

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VivishaEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #8 - on: 05.07.2010 at 23:22 [UT+1] »Possibility....... is freedom to me..... pure adrenaline rush... i get excited about what is possible and it makes
me feel like i can move about in my own head.. I can breathe. Definately a state of mind.

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vertexMember

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #9 - on: 05.07.2010 at 23:48 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 05.07.2010 at 23:07 [UT+1]:"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'...".
That's lyric has become a bit of a cliche, but it's actually a very profound statement. Think of what's left when we lose all our various selfimportances.

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It is sad when I never heard of those lyrics which is considered cliched before..... and I thought the songwriter
Kris Kristofferson was just an actor.
"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'". The meaning didn't click right away for me. What did
the songwriter mean by it?
I looked it up...there was an Esquire Q&A with Kris Kristofferson
Quote:
ESQ: Where were you when you wrote the line "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" on "Me and Bobby McGee"?
KK: I was working the Gulf of Mexico on oil rigs, flying helicopters. I'd lost my family to my years of failing as a songwriter. All I had
were bills, child support, and grief. And I was about to get fired for not letting 24 hours go between the throttle and the bottle. It looked
like I'd trashed my act. But there was something liberating about it. By not having to live up to people's expectations, I was somehow
free.

http://www.esquire.com/features/qa/ESQ0306MUSIC_84_1
Ah....now those lyrics make sense...
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TorgnyEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #10 - on: 06.07.2010 at 10:51 [UT+1] »One of the best definitions of true freedom I find in the "Four Freedoms" that were proclaimed by Franklin
Roosevelt 1941. It is stated that freedom is about expression of speech, but we also have to look inside
ourselves. The greatest enemy is our own inner shadows, our own fear and desires for short-term solutions. O
at its best.
THE FOUR FREEDOMS
Freedom of speech and expression, the best defense against the corruption of democracy;
Freedom of worship, our shield against the forces of bigotry, intolerance, and fanaticism;
Freedom from want, a commitment to erasing hunger, poverty, and pestilence from the earth;
Freedom from fear, a freedom dependent on collective security, universal disarmament is an important step
towards this.
http://www.fourfreedoms.nl/index.php?lang=en&id=13
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Lee Rutland

Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #11 - on: 06.07.2010 at 16:49 [UT+1] »Well, enjoy it while it lasts. It won't be long now. Our good country has been conned into believing the good
old government will take care of them...at least half the country believes it.....and the blatantly socialist
agendas are greased and going.
It was a good run while it lasted.

Posts: 3301
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butterflye
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #12 - on: 06.07.2010 at 18:46 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 05.07.2010 at 19:07 [UT+1]:
My Freedom lies in Giving others the same Freedom I wish for myself.

Yes, of course! And by the same token we can witness how much we value freedom by how much we're willingto give it to another.
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butterflye

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #13 - on: 06.07.2010 at 18:52 [UT+1] »Quote from Steve3 on 05.07.2010 at 21:14 [UT+1]:
freedom.....
it is mostly freedom to express myself in actions and words that I value. I hold the freedom to think pretty securely right now. But I
recognize that propaganda of all sorts... from people telling me what political party is honest to people telling me at what age I shouldplan on dying .... this kind of propaganda inundates me and can leave me as a mental slave to what

other people think. So to be free of that, I value 'common wisdom' no more and no less than any other wisdom. One could just as
well become a slave to 'contrary wisdom' by rejecting out of hand 'common wisdom'. So it is a Libra balance that will help to keep me
free in this sense.

Reminds me of being a slave to our need for approval and acceptance. One of my favorite Byron Katie quotes
is, "If I had a prayer, it would be this: 'God spare me from the desire for love, approval, and appreciation.
Amen.'"
It's great to discover freedom in this, and those of us with strong Libra/7th house influences are majoring inthis lesson I think.
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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #14 - on: 06.07.2010 at 19:41 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 05.07.2010 at 17:23 [UT+1]:

What does freedom mean to you and how has this played out in your life experience?

This is quite a controversial question Butterflye! I think that the word freedom often gets confused with justPosts: 2454

plain old selfishness ie personal liberty, without thinking about the consequences to social liberty/other people's
liberty. There are many examples of this in the Capitalist system where, for example, my freedom to buy cheap
clothes is exploiting workers in China, Central America or Los Angeles sweat shops who are paid poverty levelwages.
Astrologically, this is the difference between Uranus, which describes individual liberty and sometimes
rebelliousness (probably depending on the aspects it makes to other planets), and the sign Aquarius, in which
Uranus is held in socially-tested bounds by Saturn.
I think that a lot of controversial political issues that we have today in America - abortion, gay-rights, guncontrol and legalizing marijuana (to cite a few examples), are really arguments about this Uranus/Aquarius
dilemma. I think that people often start arguments pro or con these subjects with "what will it do for me",maybe because in the American birth chart, Uranus is conjunct Mars. Freedom is seen very much as personal
liberty, rather than considering the larger, long term and social consequences.
In tarot symbolism, personal freedom Uranus, is symbolized by The Fool, and sometimes when people act out
their personal sense of freedom they end up looking rather foolish, but the more social type of freedom isbetter represented by The Star (Aquarius), which symbolized meditation, or The Hanged Man (Neptune) please see below, in which the figure has voluntarily tied himself to a tree/T-square of Saturn and reversed his
views of life from attachment to surface appearances. He sees "below" the surface and is in the complete
freedom of cosmic consciousness; he has not escaped from the world at all, but is very conscious of its laws
(the tree) and is therefore really free.

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hangedman_003.jpg (attachment deleted)
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #15 - on: 06.07.2010 at 19:54 [UT+1] »Freedom is the hardest thing to keep and the easiest thing to lose. It took blood and sacrifice to win freedom.
And yet people would rather sit in the cold comfort of a government hand out than to go out and work to keep
Freedom.
Would anyone be willing to Fight and Die for Freedom?
Nk 7h
I am chained by other people's narrow views, strictures, and constraints. I am the most free when I am
invisible.
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23 d. Cancer
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #16 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:14 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 06.07.2010 at 19:54 [UT+1]:
Would anyone be willing to Fight and Die for Freedom?

Interesting question. But isn't any life more valuable than freedom ?
Feeling chained too.

Where is freedom ?

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WatchingWaiting

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #17 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:22 [UT+1] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 16:49 [UT+1]:
Well, enjoy it while it lasts. It won't be long now. Our good country has been conned into believing the good old government will take careof them...at least half the country believes it.....and the blatantly socialist agendas are greased and going.
It was a good run while it lasted.

Below is something my cousin sent me earlier today:"It doesn't hurt to read this several times.
United States:

Born 1776

Died 2008

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting
facts concerning last November's Presidential election:. Number of States won by:

Obama: 19. Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000. Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million

McCain: 29
McCain: 2,427,000
McCain: 143 million. Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama:13.2

McCain: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the
taxpaying citizens of the country.
Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various formsof government welfare...
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor
Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the"governmental dependency" phase. If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal
invaders called illegals - and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
Apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom."
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IP LoggedNorthernStar
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #18 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:42 [UT+1] »Quote from WatchingWaiting on 06.07.2010 at 21:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 16:49 [UT+1]:
Well, enjoy it while it lasts. It won't be long now. Our good country has been conned into believing the good oldgovernment will take care of them...at least half the country believes it.....and the blatantly socialist agendas are greased
and going.
It was a good run while it lasted.
Below is something my cousin sent me earlier today:"It doesn't hurt to read this several times.
United States: Born 1776 Died 2008
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning lastNovember's Presidential election:. Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29. Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000. Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million. Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama:13.2 McCain: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land
owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.
Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off
various forms of government welfare...
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy"phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's
population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase. If Congress grants amnesty andcitizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals - and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five
years.
Apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom."

Apparently liberty is only for the select and privileged few. That is what I'm gathering from that very biased
email.
Sounds like some scare tactic of an email that Glen Beck (and Fox and Friends) have generated.
Money somehow equates the value of one's life. Soo those who make the most (money) must be the precious
ones.
Egads... please bring on the *positive* change please aOF! The times of the old need to change. Status islosing it's value thankfully! Those who cling to their status might be the ones in sad shape.
The liberty I crave is the liberty when all life shares the same equal value regardless of age, gender, race orsocial status!
ETA: Why on Earth would it matter what income bracket one was in when they casted their vote?! Seriouslythat gets my blood boiling. Does that somehow make them less qualified to cast a ballot?!
I'm assuming since you re-posted that email following Lee's remarks you agree with it otherwise I can't see why
it would be shared?! If not then I'm simply ranting away.
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nexus7

Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #19 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:51 [UT+1] »Hah. I left the wonderfully free and democratic UK for an ex-Communist country. I did not want to end up
being workfare fodder and not being given any real autonomy and choice to decide my future.
Here, there might be 'freedom' to choose between a dozen or so cereal brands, but on the other hand....there
was no need to worry about the Basics, in terms of Maslov's heirarchy of needs, before the Change of Regime,or so I have been told.
Perhaps I am feeling the current GnO oppositonas it crosses the old Mc/IC axis.

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Lee Rutland
Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #20 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:51 [UT+1] »Interesting article, WW, and indeed, worth pondering.
Such a lovely sentiment NorthernStar.....unfortunately, it is a fantasy, as much of the world is finding out now.

Posts: 3301

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NorthernStar

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #21 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:55 [UT+1] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 21:51 [UT+1]:
Interesting article, WW, and indeed, worth pondering.
Such a lovely sentiment NorthernStar.....unfortunately, it is a fantasy, as much of the world is finding out now.

Lee it's not a fantasy. It can be a reality when one chooses to make that shift in their mentality. That is allwhere it starts! Those emails that are being spread about certainly HARM the cause. Of making all life count as
ONE. Those said emails simply serve the cause that seek to DIVIDE!
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NorthernStar
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #22 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:57 [UT+1] »Of course those emails are all sent with the *agenda* of true patriotism!

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EyesisEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #23 - on: 06.07.2010 at 21:58 [UT+1] »Quote from 23 d. Cancer on 06.07.2010 at 21:14 [UT+1]:
Quote from Eyesis on 06.07.2010 at 19:54 [UT+1]:
Would anyone be willing to Fight and Die for Freedom?

Interesting question. But isn't any life more valuable than freedom ?
Feeling chained too.

Where is freedom ?

There is no true Living without Freedom. Is a dog on a two foot chain living???
No it is a cheap imitation of life.
All one has to do is look at inner cities and then ask who has been running their Agenda for nearly a Century.
If we are not careful this whole Nation will be one huge Ghetto on the Government Dole.
Uranus just went retro. your guess is as good as mine.
All I know is I continue to write letters, sign petitions and do what meager things I can to stand up for all our
Rights and Freedoms.
btw Marc Lloyd our FCC and Diversity Czar wants to limit downloads and our access to the internet. I go toclass on line.
I am with Hughesnet which is based out of Chicago Illinios. They already limit access financially. It costs an
arm and a leg for unlimited downloads.
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vertex
Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #24 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:07 [UT+1] »Quote from WatchingWaiting on 06.07.2010 at 21:22 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 16:49 [UT+1]:
Well, enjoy it while it lasts. It won't be long now. Our good country has been conned into believing the good oldgovernment will take care of them...at least half the country believes it.....and the blatantly socialist agendas are greased
and going.

Posts: 5576
Gender:

It was a good run while it lasted.
Below is something my cousin sent me earlier today:"It doesn't hurt to read this several times.
United States: Born 1776 Died 2008
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning lastNovember's Presidential election:. Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29. Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000. Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million. Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama:13.2 McCain: 2.1

WW, did you research if these statistics are correct? Why does this Professor from Hamline University of Law
list, per candidate: the number of states won (that doesn't that a make a difference as each state has different
population and each state has a different amount of electoral votes)..square miles of land won (many of the redstates have very low population densities)..population of the county (have you seen red/blue county map of theelections..it's purple. and if you look at purple, why not state the actual number of votes Obama got?)
Anyway, just as a start, some simple statistics of number of votes won (by people, not # of states won, not #of square miles won):
Obama: 69,456,897
McCain: 59,934,814
Nadar: 736,804
Barr: 524,524
Baldwin: 196,461
McKinney: 161,195
Others: 226,908
Total:131,237,603
I actually have physics exam tomorrow, so I don't have time to investigate the veracity anything else that thisvery objective Professor said (if he even exists). But what I stated above took me 2 1/2 seconds to find.
I wonder what did you actually think of the raw stastistic of Gore vs. Bush Jr in 2000?
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #25 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:11 [UT+1] »Truth is Freedom. I have been reading the Compulsive Liar thread, and for all things, Friendship, Family, Lovers,
our Communities, and our Country...
Truth shall set everyone free. But people have forgotten how to be honest without being meanspirited.
When someone doesn't tell another how they truly feel, it not only ensnares the other person but it ensnares
the person who withholds their true feelings.
When someone lies, they put the other or others in a bind because a decision may be made upon that lie.
Truth can be a very uplifting thing.
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IP Loggeddirect Jupiterian
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #26 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:15 [UT+1] »Excellent post Realworld. The only thing i would add is that while Uranus does have a selfish, taking side to it,
it's also mixed strongly with an unusual degree of lovingness in a more collective-universal sense. The problem
with Uranus, as relating to human psyches and personalities is that it is par excellence the Planet or symbol ofextremes and going back and forth erratically to opposite poles. I've noticed this in people with predominant
Uranus's. They have moments of great givingness and lovingness (and often conscious spiritual awareness),but other moments of being some of the most stubbornly selfish, destructive, and willful people around (andtoo focused on the material for lack of spiritual balance). The weird thing about Uranus and Uranians is how
much they tend to waver back and forth between these and other extremes.
Aquarius on the other hand, i've noticed, tends to be much more balanced than Uranus. Or in themetaphysical terms i use, Aquarius tends to indicate both faster vibratory, and in more stable manner, patterns
that does Uranus. This often translates to a deeper, more clear social conscience and more positive social
livingness than Uranus normally indicates.
I would say that in a more general sense, relating to what you talked about in regards to freedom in thelarger spiritual-metaphorical sense, that it's Mars, Saturn, and Pluto in particular which have the hardest timewith freedom in the above sense because selfishness, separatism, and thus fear are so strongly encoded in their
meaning. They are OF the world, earthy earthy.

Ok, for a positive focus, freedom to me. I view freedom in a much broader sense than the political. Freedom
to me relates to degrees of and/or lack of spiritual liberation. One materially could be in bonds, but spiritually
be free, and it's that latter freedom which is one, so rare in this world, so misunderstood, but which is the mostreal and important one.
Freedom to me is living ones life as those like Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. (minus possible marriage
infidelities) and especially Yeshua lived. In other words, there is a high degree of responsibility in such a life.
In the sense of recognizing Oneness and trying to be an active channel of fostering that in this world no matter
what the world would and does do to self. True freedom is then completely regenerating and through that,completely transcending the World within.
It's most important to be free of self: to those limiting, separative aspects of self that block conscious self
awareness of ones unity with the Whole.
True free, liberated people are often considered dangerous and despicable by the social majority. They areoften feared and in peoples fear, they strike out at such people. Such people are often got rid of in some way,
and in the most extreme cases these are killed.
Astrologically i relate various degrees of freedom to different astro. symbols--always concentrating most on
the Planets. In Neptune and Jupiter do we see the beginning of freedom (one could argue the real start is in
Venus, the first level and consciousness of concern for and awareness of the other).
When these levels are fully integrated and mastered, then do we come upon the Sun, and through the Sun we
become aware of other, more expanded systems than our ELS (Earth life system which includes the entire Solarsystem), and it's through primarily Arcturus that we move through and into these other expanded systems.
Many come back in order to try to pass on a greater freedom to others and to finish up become truly andultimately free, fully spiritually liberated (for the Earth is a great school in this sense, because it provides somuch difficulty & polarity based consequence).
Eventually after Arcturus we come to the Galactic Center, the singular symbol most indicative of the highest
kind of freedom. The freedom of being completely attuned to that consciousness of pure unconditional,
universal love, or in other words--complete, full conscious Oneness awareness and consciousness. The freedomof Yeshua and those who have followed completely in this footsteps and example.

Quote from Eyesis on 06.07.2010 at 19:54 [UT+1]:
Would anyone be willing to Fight and Die for Freedom?

Yes, and i'm aware that it is a probability that this body/physical vehicle will die for freedom. I would doanything to help this world move beyond it's limiting stuck patterns, and have told my Higher/Total self, the
Co-Creator, and Source to use me as a channel for such change no matter what may happen to self.
If more people in this world dedicated themselves as channels of such positive change because they deeply
care about humanity as a whole, then this world would transform and become a very nice place to vacationfrom eternity.
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Lee Rutland

Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #27 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:23 [UT+1] »Quote from NorthernStar on 06.07.2010 at 21:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 21:51 [UT+1]:
Interesting article, WW, and indeed, worth pondering.
Such a lovely sentiment NorthernStar.....unfortunately, it is a fantasy, as much of the world is finding out now.

Lee it's not a fantasy. It can be a reality when one chooses to make that shift in their mentality. That is all where it starts! Those emails
that are being spread about certainly HARM the cause. Of making all life count as ONE. Those said emails simply serve the cause that
seek to DIVIDE!

Posts: 3301

Well, you see, that's the problem, NorthernStar. You would have to change human nature, which neither you,nor anyone else, is about to do. You would have to perform lobotomies on 90% of the human race. People, arejust plain, old people, and they're not about to change.

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NorthernStar
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #28 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:30 [UT+1] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 22:23 [UT+1]:
Quote from NorthernStar on 06.07.2010 at 21:55 [UT+1]:
Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 21:51 [UT+1]:
Interesting article, WW, and indeed, worth pondering.
Such a lovely sentiment NorthernStar.....unfortunately, it is a fantasy, as much of the world is finding out
now.

Lee it's not a fantasy. It can be a reality when one chooses to make that shift in their mentality. That is all where it
starts! Those emails that are being spread about certainly HARM the cause. Of making all life count as ONE. Those said
emails simply serve the cause that seek to DIVIDE!
Well, you see, that's the problem, NorthernStar. You would have to change human nature, which neither you, nor anyone else, is about todo. You would have to perform lobotomies on 90% of the human race. People, are just plain, old people, and they're not about to change.

Oh Lee, you are very incorrect there my friend.

People DO and CAN change. But we have to want to change.

That is the key. I speak from very personal experience here. It happens and thankfully it happens all the time.
It's not abpout changing others for as you correctly asserted we cannot change other people. But if we stop toquestions others-- bringing these thoughts and questions to their awareness--perhaps change for others will
occur as well.
A ripple effect. Just like those biased and very dangerous emails.
I think you should give people more credit then you doo too!!
Elizabeth
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WatchingWaiting

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #29 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:33 [UT+1] »Quote from Eyesis on 06.07.2010 at 19:54 [UT+1]:
Freedom is the hardest thing to keep and the easiest thing to lose. It took blood and sacrifice to win freedom. And yet people would rather
sit in the cold comfort of a government hand out than to go out and work to keep Freedom.

Would anyone be willing to Fight and Die for Freedom?

Nk 7h
I am chained by other people's narrow views, strictures, and constraints. I am the most free when I am invisible.

Actually, I am a veteran of the U.S. Navy. I served and would not have thought twice about dying for mycountry. If called back in, I wouldn't think twice. Ask that question to any of the military personnel that haveand are serving. I'm sure you'll get most of them saying the same thing I did.
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WatchingWaiting
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #30 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:36 [UT+1] »Quote from NorthernStar on 06.07.2010 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
I'm assuming since you re-posted that email following Lee's remarks you agree with it otherwise I can't see why it would be shared?! If
not then I'm simply ranting away.

I didn't repost that. It was the first time I put it on here.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #31 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:37 [UT+1] »Well Lee, that's your consensus reality opinion of human nature. Mine is different - I see a lot of decency at thecore despite the confusion and programming of society (yeah, and very occasionally outright evil).
Guess we must be coexisting in different parallel universes meeting on the same stomping ground.
Ever met anyone who didn't think they were the protagonist of their life? And didn't think they were doing
what they thought was appropriate by their lights? Even if their lights had gotten pretty dim or distorted orderanged? I don't think I have.
Not to tell anyone how to live, but there's a gap of opportunity for action and reaction when you assume thatthe overwhelming majority of humanity has some capacity for redemption instead of their being assholes.
Tends to lead to more pleasant day-to-day experiences too - on a more pragmatic note.
I have Sa rising - I'm no Pollyanna.
- Ed
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NorthernStar
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #32 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:39 [UT+1] »Quote from WatchingWaiting on 06.07.2010 at 22:36 [UT+1]:
Quote from NorthernStar on 06.07.2010 at 21:42 [UT+1]:
I'm assuming since you re-posted that email following Lee's remarks you agree with it otherwise I can't see why it would
be shared?! If not then I'm simply ranting away.
I didn't repost that. It was the first time I put it on here.

Re-posting that as in meaning posting it here. Posting it here. Re-posting it on here. Is what I was getting
at..... wasn't trying to reply this was the second time you posted that.
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vertexMember

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #33 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:41 [UT+1] »Can I tell you how much I love to procrastinate...iii
Anyway, this email was basically false when it circulating word for word back in 2000 (Bush Vs Gore)...
Posts: 5576
Gender:Since the people who believe forwards are a legitimate source of news (the same people who watch Fox News)
are not really worried about facts, they just went ahead and changed the names Obama (from Gore) and Bush(from McCain).
http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp
Read the link....

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WatchingWaiting
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #34 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:42 [UT+1] »Quote from vertex on 06.07.2010 at 22:07 [UT+1]:
WW, did you research if these statistics are correct?

No, because I received it at work. I just did a quick check, though. It's bogus, but the professor is real.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/joseph-olson.htm

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Lee Rutland

Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #35 - on: 06.07.2010 at 22:59 [UT+1] »Look, Ed and NorthernStar both....I'm not negative about people, and I don't think they are "assholes"....I
wouldn't be an astrologer if I felt that way.
And yes, I know people can, and do, change. That's what I'm all about when doing clients.
And yes, people are basically decent folks.
But, they are just folks, most just trying to get by, not rule the world or become enlightened, just trying to put
food on the table. And, they are going to serve their own interests first...or what they perceive that to be.
Posts: 3301

I think I'll just shut up here, because my main theme was more political than anything, which doesn't need tobe here.

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butterflye
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #36 - on: 06.07.2010 at 23:01 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 05.07.2010 at 21:17 [UT+1]:
I am fond of saying, "You're not the boss of me."
Except, of course, I can't say that to my actual boss who really is the boss of me. But only because I need the money and they pay me
well.
Yes, I guess you could say I'm a bit of a rebel.

k MC
iA

That gave me a chuckle, Judyanne.
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Ed Falis

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #37 - on: 06.07.2010 at 23:11 [UT+1] »Quote from Lee Rutland on 06.07.2010 at 22:59 [UT+1]:
Look, Ed and NorthernStar both....I'm not negative about people, and I don't think they are "assholes"....I wouldn't be an astrologer if I
felt that way.
And yes, I know people can, and do, change. That's what I'm all about when doing clients.
And yes, people are basically decent folks.
But, they are just folks, most just trying to get by, not rule the world or become enlightened, just trying to put food on the table. And,
they are going to serve their own interests first...or what they perceive that to be.
I think I'll just shut up here, because my main theme was more political than anything, which doesn't need to be here.

Well, doesn't seem like we're too far from agreement. The interesting places are around perceptions of what's
in someone's best interest.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering why this one didn't end up in the mundane section.
- Ed
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butterflye
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #38 - on: 06.07.2010 at 23:43 [UT+1] »Quote from vertex on 05.07.2010 at 22:54 [UT+1]:
For me, freedom is 1) realizing that having some sort of authority over you or bounded/constrained by something in some capacity is an
intrinsic part of life AND 2) having that some sort of authority over you/constraints put on you, doesn't mean that you aren't or can't befree mentally.

I think that there are natural limits to freedom, which Saturn represents, such that the extent of each person's
freedom only extends to the point where it doesn't encroach on anothers.
It can be tricky to discover where that boundary lies, and there is much trial and error and testing in thisregard. We have many examples in this world of these kinds of trials. The abortion debate is one. Also, Larry
Flint and Hustler magazine comes to mind, in regard to freedom of speech and porgnography.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=3471133
Some people's ideas of freedom involves being abusive or harmful, or to generally annoy and harass another.
And other's ideas of freedom involves not being abused or harassed.
So we're always working out thesepoints where divergent ideas meet. I can see the importance of finding balance and wisdom with Saturn,
Jupiter and Uranus, which are the energies that are most prevalent when it comes to the subject of Freedom.

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butterflye

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #39 - on: 07.07.2010 at 00:27 [UT+1] »Freedom goes so deep for me, into such subtle realms. I've been addressing, for instance, people's freedom tomake assumptions and tell stories. Like, when someone makes assumptions and tells stories about me or
about what they think I'm doing or saying. It's an interesting conundrum of how to respond. Should I attempt
to change their views? But then I think why? Yes, it feels frustrating for someone to do that, tomisunderstand me so completely. But then I notice a lot of times people don't approach others with a questionor seeking clarification. They approach them with ready made judgments and a sense of "I know". So when I
see people doing that it seems to me that they already have their minds made up. And they must like theirstories or else there would be a question there somewhere, rather than an assumption. So then I think, well,aren't they free to choose whatever story they want?
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Juno~0'
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #40 - on: 07.07.2010 at 01:15 [UT+1] »Freedom can also mean ; it's not all about me...and I should not make it so
WW... thank you for your time in service
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Apostrophe

Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #41 - on: 07.07.2010 at 01:41 [UT+1] »Quote from direct Jupiterian on 06.07.2010 at 22:15 [UT+1]:

Freedom to me is living ones life as those like Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. (minus possible marriage infidelities) and especially Yeshua
lived. In other words, there is a high degree of responsibility in such a life. In the sense of recognizing Oneness and trying to be an
active channel of fostering that in this world no matter what the world would and does do to self. True freedom is then completely
regenerating and through that, completely transcending the World within.

(bolding by me)
Posts: 2454

Yes, responsibility is so important, because no one can be completely free if they are creating bad karma.

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Apostrophe
Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #42 - on: 07.07.2010 at 01:45 [UT+1] »Quote from Torgny on 06.07.2010 at 10:51 [UT+1]:
One of the best definitions of true freedom I find in the "Four Freedoms" that were proclaimed by Franklin Roosevelt 1941. It is statedthat freedom is about expression of speech, but we also have to look inside ourselves. The greatest enemy is our own inner shadows, ourown fear and desires for short-term solutions.

O at its best.

THE FOUR FREEDOMS
Freedom of speech and expression, the best defense against the corruption of democracy;
Freedom of worship, our shield against the forces of bigotry, intolerance, and fanaticism;

Posts: 2454

Freedom from want, a commitment to erasing hunger, poverty, and pestilence from the earth;
Freedom from fear, a freedom dependent on collective security, universal disarmament is an important step towards this.
http://www.fourfreedoms.nl/index.php?lang=en&id=13(bolding by me)
What about freedom from worship? (religion).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u1S3C5yWjc
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butterflye

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #43 - on: 07.07.2010 at 03:12 [UT+1] »Quote from Ed Falis on 05.07.2010 at 23:07 [UT+1]:"Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose'...".
That's lyric has become a bit of a cliche, but it's actually a very profound statement. Think of what's left when we lose all our various selfimportances.

I agree, this is indeed a very powerful statement, and so true. I think that wherever we're attached we'rebound.
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butterflye
Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #44 - on: 07.07.2010 at 03:19 [UT+1] »Quote from Torgny on 06.07.2010 at 10:51 [UT+1]:
One of the best definitions of true freedom I find in the "Four Freedoms" that were proclaimed by Franklin Roosevelt 1941. It is statedthat freedom is about expression of speech, but we also have to look inside ourselves. The greatest enemy is

our own inner shadows, our own fear and desires for short-term solutions. O at its best.
THE FOUR FREEDOMS
Freedom of speech and expression, the best defense against the corruption of democracy;
Freedom of worship, our shield against the forces of bigotry, intolerance, and fanaticism;
Freedom from want, a commitment to erasing hunger, poverty, and pestilence from the earth;
Freedom from fear, a freedom dependent on collective security, universal disarmament is an important step towards this.
http://www.fourfreedoms.nl/index.php?lang=en&id=13

Very noble aims.

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EyesisEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #45 - on: 07.07.2010 at 10:26 [UT+1] »Quote from WatchingWaiting on 06.07.2010 at 22:33 [UT+1]:
Quote from Eyesis on 06.07.2010 at 19:54 [UT+1]:
Freedom is the hardest thing to keep and the easiest thing to lose. It took blood and sacrifice to win freedom. And yet
people would rather sit in the cold comfort of a government hand out than to go out and work to keep Freedom.

Would anyone be willing to Fight and Die for Freedom?

Nk 7h
I am chained by other people's narrow views, strictures, and constraints. I am the most free when I am invisible.
Actually, I am a veteran of the U.S. Navy. I served and would not have thought twice about dying for my country. If called back in, I
wouldn't think twice. Ask that question to any of the military personnel that have and are serving. I'm sure you'll get most of them saying
the same thing I did.

And I thank you very much. Navy too!!!!!!!
Yes I have asked and yes they said the same. Our freedoms were not won by people sitting on their petards. My
uncle was a retired Navy Capt.
I greatly appreciate and actively support our servicemen and women.
Thank you again.
Steve3 I too am very prepared to fight and die for that which is most Precious to us. I have had threats against
me for my views but they do not understand that I am speaking out for their freedom's also.
It is the risk I take and I deal with the consequences.
Unfortunately too many would rather be given a handout. We have lost our Innovative edge, and we have beenlulled into the philosophy of Wealth Redistribution. This is why we have no industry or jobs. We havesubstituted Social promotion for Education and our kids are not as intelligent as they were when I was growingup.
Leveling the playing field and rewarding someone for just showing up has turned us into a Nation of Mediocrity.
We are getting as bad as Europe who's only industry is Entertainment, and look at how lousy that is.
The government has way too much control over our businesses. We already have AntiTrust laws and such inplace. It was up to the government in the first place to fairly implement these laws. No...
Bill Clinton pardons a man who embezzled 20 million back in 79 who had run to Switzerland.
And through the years we watched as laws were created that shredded our constitution and we simply said it
was for the good of the people. NOT.
btw, Our Constitution is based on the Iroquois 5 Nations... Not the Magna Carta. Once I get my puter backonline, I will be able to post linx again. We need to stop listening to Britain. They never quite got over losing tous....

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Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #46 - on: 07.07.2010 at 15:59 [UT+1] »The freedom to be who I am without fear or favour and for me, not having this would want me to not live. I
would die inside anyway and that is no life for me.

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judyanne

Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #47 - on: 07.07.2010 at 17:14 [UT+1] »Quote from butterflye on 07.07.2010 at 00:27 [UT+1]:
Freedom goes so deep for me, into such subtle realms. I've been addressing, for instance, people's freedom to make assumptions and tellstories. Like, when someone makes assumptions and tells stories about me or about what they think I'm doing or saying. It's aninteresting conundrum of how to respond. Should I attempt to change their views? But then I think why? Yes, it feels frustrating forsomeone to do that, to misunderstand me so completely. But then I notice a lot of times people don't approach others with a question or
seeking clarification. They approach them with ready made judgments and a sense of "I know". So when I see people doing that it seems
to me that they already have their minds made up. And they must like their stories or else there would be a question there somewhere,
rather than an assumption. So then I think, well, aren't they free to choose whatever story they want?

Posts: 2012
Gender:This is very interesting to me. I wonder about those same questions, especially here on the internet where
people only see a small portion of what others are like. People's characters are never as simple as what they
portray on the internet. Yet there are snap judgments that get made right and left, and what started out as an
attempt to engage thoughtful discussion can turn into political mud-slinging or spiritual put-downs based onentrenched beliefs. What is the point?
In these days of sound bites and sensationalistic media personalities, people are often easily manipulated into
extreme positions that don't really serve their best interests nor the interests of the larger community.
Yes, it's true that people are free to remain ignorant if they wish to do so. Unfortunately, that is true; you can't
force people to use their brains. But I think that one way to remain free is to resist the pull of the "cheap andeasy" way of mentally processing information, and to try and see things clearly without blinders.
Just a few thoughts, for what it's worth.

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banditEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #48 - on: 07.07.2010 at 17:21 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 07.07.2010 at 17:14 [UT+1]:
turn into political mud-slinging or spiritual put-downs based on beliefs. What is the point?

you are so spot on with this, i even have this dialogue with myself.
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butterflye

Ex Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #49 - on: 07.07.2010 at 18:19 [UT+1] »Quote from judyanne on 07.07.2010 at 17:14 [UT+1]:
This is very interesting to me. I wonder about those same questions, especially here on the internet where people only see a small portionof what others are like. People's characters are never as simple as what they portray on the internet. Yet there are snap judgments that
get made right and left, and what started out as an attempt to engage thoughtful discussion can turn into political mud-slinging or spiritual
put-downs based on entrenched beliefs. What is the point?
In these days of sound bites and sensationalistic media personalities, people are often easily manipulated into extreme positions that don't
really serve their best interests nor the interests of the larger community.

You seem like you have an open mind, Judyanne, and it's very refreshing and enjoyable to me to encountersuch a person. You ask what is the point? If the question is regarding what is the point of thinking & behavingin this way, I think one possible answer to that is that people want their judgments and generalizations because
it makes them feel safe. For example, if someone experiences hurt, they want to find some "objective" criteria,
something easily identifiable, in order to prevent further pain. In the process they become prosecutor, judge,
and jury, and convict people based on their definition of guilt. Then they have a sense of safety, due toseparating the "unwanted" elements... me/not me, not realizing all the while that all they've really done isimprisoned themselves. It's an illusion of safety, no more. All prejudice and judgment comes from fear. Fearof the unknown, fear of what people don't understand, fear of being vulnerable.
If the question is regarding what is the point of contributing, I don't think there is one. For me there is no
point in contributing something to an audience whose minds and hearts are closed, who have already arrived attheir points of view and aren't interested in hearing any other. What would I do... push my way through? No,
I'm not a bully, and I don't need anyone to think differently. I may, initially, probe just a little to make sure themind is really closed, but once that is made clear to me, I will leave and go elsewhere where what I have to say
is better received. It' really a no brainer for me, as I find my flow dries up and I'm simply unable to contribute
anything in a hostile environment.

Quote:
Yes, it's true that people are free to remain ignorant if they wish to do so. Unfortunately, that is true; you can't force people to use theirbrains. But I think that one way to remain free is to resist the pull of the "cheap and easy" way of mentally processing information, and totry and see things clearly without blinders.

I want to share something I said to someone recently that speaks of this. "I enjoy exploring the deeper truths,
and then interpreting Astrology from that perspective. Not the fast food approach of slapping some labels andgeneralizations together and calling it nourishment. It doesn't nourish me!"No, I don't really enjoy the path of cheap and easy. In fact, more and more I'm realizing how horribly distorted
is this practice of Astrology that generalizes someone based on aspects, signs, or anything else in their chart.
There is so much assumption that goes on! And we ABSOLUTELY CANNOT predict someone's level of wisdom
or awareness or the manner in which they choose to use the energies they're given. It's a rape of the humanspirit, really.
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judyanne
Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #50 - on: 07.07.2010 at 18:38 [UT+1] »Thanks, Butterflye, though I'm not always as open-minded as my ideal self would be.

J has been transiting conjunct my natal C lately, and I'm really wanting to break free of mental rigidity. So
this kind of topic helps me to open up my thinking process. I appreciate your posting it.

Posts: 2012
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EyesisEx Member

Re: Give me Liberty!
« Reply #51 - on: 08.07.2010 at 01:38 [UT+1] »What could be the Real basis for the US Constitution...
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
I forgot they included a 6th nation which may be the Tuscarora Nation in North Carolina.
The Iroquois Nation had a Democracy much like ours as early as the late 12th century.
Ironic these people were considered Savage, by Europeans. Seems these people had their own Freedom goingon.
Interestingly enough Women held Power within the Iroquois Nation. There is an etching of the Iroquois women
giving Susan B. Anthony a copy of the Iroquois Constitution.
Our Constitution was ratified while the Sun was in Virgo. Some key people of the formation of our Nation had
Pluto in Virgo...
Pluto was in Gemini when the Fed was created, and the XVIth (Income Tax) amendment was ratified. This was
the beginning of Big Government. (Legalized Theft)Those who created it had Pluto in Taurus.
Liberty should Not be taken for granted. There may come a day when we will no longer be able to freely express
ourselves.
I do not associate any one sign with Freedom or Liberty. A was in Cancer that the Declaration was signed.
Each sign is capable of expressing Liberty in its own way.
On other levels
Do as thou wilt is the Whole of the Law...
Crowley

Within the Privacy of my Mind and Being I am the Most Free...

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