INTERVIEWS“Timbral exploration and collaboration with performers lie at the heart of mymusical life”: An Interview with Judith Shatin
KRISTINA WARREN

Judith Shatin is a composer and sound artist
whose music engages our social, cultural,and physical environments. She is William
R. Kenan, Jr. Professor Emerita at the University of Virginia, having retired in 2018
after teaching there for 39 years. While at
UVA, she founded the Virginia Center for
Computer Music and oversaw the creationof the first PhD program in music in the history of the state. A distinguished composer
whose music combines acoustic and digitalelements, Judith is the recipient of numerous commissions and awards, and her music is performed around the globe. She isa strong advocate for her fellow composers, having served as President of American
Women Composers (1989-93) and collaborated in the creation of the IAWM. I interviewed her via Skype in January 2019.
Kristina Warren: Tell me about your early experiences with music and sound.
Judith Shatin: When I was about six,
my father bought an old upright piano, andI gravitated to it racing to play it first thing
in the morning. I later took up the flute,
played in the school band and orchestra,and sang in the chorus. I was always drawn
to music and to sound, and I remain grateful that music had a strong place in the
public schools I attended.
I first became seriously involved withcomposition (studying with Robert Moevs)
when I was an undergraduate at Douglass
College (Rutgers University). I became
obsessed with composing and was allowed
to give the first composition recital in theschool’s history. Of course, this came withthe condition that I find the performers, organize all details, and perform one of mypieces for solo piano. This was good preparation for so many other experiences, notto mention the ever-present requirement ofperseverance!
As to electronic music, I briefly composed in a small studio on the Rutgers
Campus. It consisted of a couple of taperecorders and splicing equipment, and I
found the process frustrating. Next, as a
student at the Aspen Music Festival, I trieda Buchla Synthesizer and found that much
more approachable. I continued working
on a Buchla while completing the MM deWarren, An Interview with Judith Shatin

gree at Juilliard, but I was still not satisfied
with the results. So, I focused on acoustic
composition, including my first orchestralpiece. Later, while completing the PhD at
Princeton in the mid ’70s, I tried composing using a mainframe computer. In thosedays, we laboriously typed parameters on
cardboard cards, and had the results transferred to digital tape, which we brought tothe Engineering School late at night to listen to the results. I found them disappointing and decided to wait for further developments. Somehow, I knew they were in
the offing. And I was/am still captivated byacoustic composition.

Judith Shatin playing the conga drum
(photo by Lisa Maki)

KW: You founded the Virginia Center for
Computer Music at the University of Virginia in 1987. How has the musical community evolved over several decades?
JS: I started the Virginia Center for
Computer Music to create a center forteaching, creative work, and research. At
the start, it was rather lonely, but happily
that changed quickly, and students wereimmediately excited by the new opportunities. MIDI had just been introduced,
and I learned that funding was available
through UVA’s Academic Computing Sup-port Committee for teaching and new technologies. I went to New York, parked myself at a store that sold MIDI equipment,
learned enough to write the grant proposal
to start the program, and received a number of other successful grants to keep it going. I’ll never forget my first large electroacoustic piece. Called Hearing Things,
it was scored for amplified violin, 88-key
keyboard controller, Mac II, a DEP5 effects processor, a Roland S550 Sampler,a Roland Voice Processor, and a TX-802
Synthesizer. We had to bring the equipment to New York in a station wagon fora performance at Miller Theatre at Columbia University.
At the start, just Systems Engineer
Pete Yadlowsky, who was lent part-timeby our Information Technology Services,and I worked at the Center. It was a major
step forward when composers Alison Warren and John Gibson joined us, as well as
technical director Dave Topper. And, as the
program continued to develop, Matthew
Burtner and Ted Coffey joined the department, and they, together with our new technical director, Travis Thatcher, have madecontinual advances, expanding the entire
computer music program. Most recently
Luke Dahl, an expert in signal processing
and music interaction design, joined theteam. And currently the department also
has outstanding visiting composers—Leah
Reid and Heather Frasch—so I am optimistic about the future.
Another aspect of our program that hascontinued apace is the maturation of our
PhD in Composition and Computer Technologies. While I was Department Chair,
I worked hard to bring our PhD proposal
to completion, going through an extensive process with my colleagues, handlingbenchmarking with other programs, convincing various administrators of its merit, and shepherding it through the various
levels within the institution and on to theState Council on Higher Education, where
we won approval. We have had a string ofoutstanding students go on to their own careers at Oberlin, Rutgers, the University ofMiami, Christopher Newport University,and numerous other institutions.
1One ongoing issue still exists everywhere: finding the “right” balance between
acoustic and digital. I had an ideal visionof these being equal and being integrated with one another. Yet, because each isso time intensive, and music technology
has such shape-shifting qualities, the balance remains elusive. So, while we try to
make sure that all of our undergraduatesand graduate students have time and opportunity to develop both, it is not easy. In

the end, each of us has to find the balance
for herself. I often blend the two, though I
also love to compose acoustic music. One
example of this blending can be found in
For the Fallen, originally commissioned
by Ivano Ascari for trumpet and electronics made from field recordings of the Peace
Bell in Rovereto, Italy. I have made several
versions for different instruments.
The most recent is for ace flutist Lindsey Goodman, who recorded it on her re-cent CD Returning to Heights Unseen.
(See Example 1.) This example shows botha controlled improvisation section, and apassage with specific, though proportional,
notation used to create a flexible interaction between the performer and electronics. Further, I use a combination of verbal
and pitch notation for the electronics toconvey specific pictures and textures.
KW: The balance of time among different activities is a fascinating aspect of be-

Ex. 1. Judith Shatin, Returning to Heights Unseen
2

IAWM Journal Volume 25, No. 1 2019

ing a musician. I’m curious to learn which
activities resonate most with you, for instance, composing, recording, programming, mixing, or working with physical or
textual materials.
JS: I feel lucky to have started as
an acoustic composer because I had already spent years developing that practice when I turned to electronic composition, as each required such intense
focus. I still delight in both, and I cannot
imagine dropping either.
KW: I performed your “Tape Music” [tapeon a dispenser with teeth, a cardboard box,
a blunt instrument such as a pencil, andfixed media] with the UVA New Music Ensemble. I perceived a real levity and exuberance in this piece. What is the role ofemotional content in your work?
JS: I see it as fundamental, as every
utterance that we make has an emotional
valence. Whether we think about it or not,when music is experienced, it conveys
emotional content. It’s not that I sit aroundand think, “OK, what emotional content
do I want to convey?” but it’s all boundup together. Actually, there is a caveat tothat. When I am setting a text, the choices
I make are governed by the textual flow ofsound and by the meaning. I’m interested
in finding ways for the music to interact
with the text.
KW: You have written a great deal of vocal music. Why do you find this genre to be
especially interesting?
JS: Language has so much richness
and voices have a raw power and intimacy.
I find that when a text resonates with me,
rhythmic ideas and sonic qualities jump
into my mind. Before I turned to music,
I wrote poetry, so it’s something I’ve always been rather sensitive to. I find how
we connect meaning with utterance endlessly fascinating.
I’ve worked with all kinds of texts.
And often one project leads to another. For
example, The Illinois Wesleyan Collegiate
Choir, conducted by J. Scott Ferguson, performed Hark My Love, a setting of verses
from the Song of Songs during a residency I
did at IWU and immediately commissioned
I Love, a setting of a verse from Gertrude
Stein’s extended poem Before the Flowersof Friendship Faded Friendship Faded. It
has humor and lightness and a variety of
linguistic twists. The first line goes, “I love
my love with a v.” The choir premiered andtoured it in March 2019.
Warren, An Interview with Judith Shatin

Just prior to that I was commissioned
by opera singer Amy Johnson to compose
a monodrama for soprano and piano. I set along poem by Amy Lowell called Patterns,
which is about the patterns that constrict
us on so many different levels. The narrative is told from a woman’s point of view,and starts with her walking in the garden
musing on the constrictions of her dressand her class. She longs for her fiancé who
is off fighting in the war in Flanders. Overthe course of the poem there are many intimations of his death, and the poem closes
with him dying “…In a pattern called war./
Christ! What are patterns for?” It goes fromthe personal to the societal, suggesting themany ways our lives are patterned by social
constraints. The poem itself has wonderfulinternal rhymes and compelling images.
KW: When I was a graduate student at
UVA, one of the many things I came to admire is your balance between what I’ll callthe musical and the practical, or between
one’s inner life and imagination as a composer on the one hand, and how these cometo fruition in the real world of instruments,
venues, and ears on the other hand. How doyou think about the real, the aesthetic, theprivate, the shared, and so on?
JS: One of the aspects that I valued,
not only about my work at UVA, but also
within the larger community, is the sharing of my music in performance and thefeedback that results. I also love collaborative interaction with performers, especiallythose who like to experiment. For example, I find a great deal of joy in working
with stellar percussionist I-Jen Fang. The
hands-on encounters with the huge rangeof percussion instruments is terrific! The
collaboration I’ve had with many performers has been crucial. I think of flutist Patricia Spencer, saxophonist Susan Fancher, cellist Madeleine Shapiro, clarinetist F.
Gerard Errante, and many others.
Another example occurred last year,
when the San Jose Chamber Orchestra andits intrepid conductor, Barbara Day Turner,commissioned Ice Becomes Water, scoredfor string orchestra and electronics fashioned
from field recordings shared by glaciologist
Oscar Glowacki. My colleagues at UVA, David Sariti (violin), Ayn Balija (viola), Adam
Carter (cello), and Peter Spaar (bass), responded to my request for exploratory sessions very enthusiastically. It was great fun
to try out different techniques, inventing newones as we went along. That kind of interaction always feeds my imagination.
KW: You’ve collaborated with a wide variety of people, including coal miners, scientists, children; what are your thoughtson these collaborations? What are somememorable moments?
JS: Where to start? My large-scalepieces are quite varied! COAL, an evening-length folk oratorio, was scored for
an Appalachian ensemble consisting of two
singers, guitar, banjo, fiddle, hammered
dulcimer, keyboard synthesizer, and elec-

Shatin Music MonthThe University of Virginia honored Judith Shatin with a two-day celebration startingwith a symposium on April 5, 2019. Three speakers presented papers: Steve Kempa,“Sounding the Word; Exploring Religious Symbolism in the Music of Judith Shatin”;
Juraj Kojs: “Streams and Voices in the Electroacoustic Music of Judith Shatin”; andDenise Von Glahn: “Judith Shatin Composes Environmental Awareness.” That evening
the University Singers, under the baton of Ryan Mullaney, performed Adonai Ro’i,
Shatin’s setting of Psalm 23 in the original Hebrew. The concert on April 6 featured
acoustic, electroacoustic, and digital music that Shatin created during her tenure at the
University.
The celebration continued with three more concerts in April. On the 18th, the New
Music Ensemble presented her digital music, premiering Zipper Music, scored for two
amplified zipper players and interactive electronics, performed with 2 MIDI controllers. The piece is part of her Quotidian Music series. On April 27 and 28, The Charlottesville Symphony, conducted by Benjamin Rous, performed Shatin’s Piping the Earth.
The work was inspired by a metaphor in the ancient Chinese text, the Zhuangzi. It refers to the changing sounds of the wind as it sweeps through earth’s caverns. Like thewind, the music ranges from the murmuring of the opening to tumultuous sweeps, fromeddying swirls to a powerful maelstrom. The piece was commissioned by the National
Endowment for the Arts and The Women’s Philharmonic. It has been recorded by the
Moravian Philharmonic on the Capstone label.
3tronics, which I fashioned from recordings
I made in a working coal mine. COAL waspart of a two-year project that was sponsored by the Lila Wallace-Reader’s Digest
Arts Partners Program. Pianist and dynamo
Mary Kathleen Ernst, at Shepherd University in Shepherdstown, West Virginia, conceived of and spearheaded the project. I
did four week-long residencies and worked
with numerous community groups. I also
made numerous research trips to West Virginia and southwest Virginia, and met people who worked in coal mines, people who
owned coal mines, and an assortment ofcommunity activists and historians. It wasa very moving experience. After descending into Eagles Nest Coal Mine in Twilight,
West Virginia for a day, I came out totally
covered in coal dust, and it took me several days to get it out of my system. I drewon these experiences in creating my own
libretto. We gave the profits from the premiere to the Black Lung Association, andhoped that at least some people had been
given more awareness of the issues. I remain distressed, though, by how many people still suffer from lax conditions in mines.

As to other projects—you mentioned
children. I first heard the San Francisco
Girls’ Chorus when I was spending a year
as a guest composer at Stanford. I composed
Beetles, Monsters and Roses for them. It
was their first piece with electronics, andthey sang beautifully under the direction of
Sharon Paul. And one of the most delightful compliments I have received came rightafter the premiere. One movement, “Click
Beetle,” is a setting of a poem about a beetle by Mary Ann Hoberman. After the concert, one of the girls came up to me and said,“I’m not afraid of beetles anymore.”
KW: The past decade has seen major performances of several large works, including “The Passion of St. Cecilia,” “Singing the Blue Ridge,” “Being in Time,” andothers. What have been some of the uniqueinterests and challenges of these largescale projects?
JS: The earliest of these is The Passionof St. Cecilia (1981), a three-movement
concerto for piano and orchestra, which I
composed for pianist Gayle Martin, whorecorded it with the Moravian Philharmon-

Ex. 2. Judith Shatin, Fantasy on St. Cecilia
4

ic for my orchestral portrait CD Piping the
Earth. I created most of the work while inresidence at La Cité des Arts in Paris, an inspiring place to work. There were a numberof elements that drew me to Cecilia. One isthe contrast of her legend as the patron saintof music and the arts with the facts as they
are known. The association appears to be
based on a mistranslation in the 15th century. I love the mystery as well as much of
the art that has been created in response tothis legend. The original story of her martyrdom is intense, and I decided to createa musical response to the martyrdom of awoman. Gayle later commissioned the solo
adaptation, Fantasy on St. Cecilia.
Fantasy on St. Cecilia fuses the duality of piano and orchestra within the coloristic world of the piano. (See Example 2.)
The first movement suggests the attack on
her religious belief. The second is a meditation on her faith, while the third portrays her
final struggle. The work opens with loud,ominous crashes, and continues in dramatic fashion. Gayle, who has long been my
pianistic muse, recorded this piece on her
CD To Keep the Dark Away (Ravello RR#7937), with the title of the CD named forthe other piece of mine included on the disc.
Singing the Blue Ridge (2002), formezzo, baritone, orchestra, and electronics, is fashioned from calls of wild animals
that are indigenous to this area. It was commissioned by Wintergreen Performing Arts
as part of a major project called Preserving
the Rural Soundscape. I worked with theAmerican poet Barbara Goldberg, who created poetry whose arc moves from the time
before humanity, to a snapshot of the destruction we create, to the cycle of life of all
animals. Then, the last movement, “Miracleof Stars,” sings of a hope for better stewardship in the future. I again engaged with thelocal community, this time in Nelson County, VA. I led sound walks, arranged for anumber of community members to record
environmental sounds that were importantto them, and led discussions on the role ofsound in the environment, including thesonic environment that animals provide as
well as the one we create ourselves.
Being in Time (2015) was yet anotherengrossing project. Supported by a Faculty
Research Grant in the Arts at UVA, I firstscored the piece for wind ensemble, interactive video, and conductor-controlled
electronics developed from recordings that
I made of students in the ensemble. I colIAWM Journal Volume 25, No. 1 2019laborated with graduate student composers
Paul Turowski and Joe Adkins on the video
and interactive elements. While we completed the project according to my originalidea, the technology was complicated and,in some ways, unreliable. So, after the premiere, I created another version for windensemble and electronic playback that was
performed most recently by the UT-Austin
Wind Ensemble, conducted by Jerry Junkin. Occasionally, I have to rein in some of
my visions for technology that is not quite
ready for prime time.
I want to mention one other pointthat I believe very strongly: the compositional process is about the imagination. I
don’t care whether you’re using sticks andstones or the newest technologies, or common household items, as in my recent Zipper Music (2019, part of my Quotidian Music series). It’s really a question of what
your imagination is capable of, what kindof structures you can imagine and create insound. I don’t think that one should feel a“have to” about using any particular technology. But I also feel strongly that everyone who creates music or does sound design should at least have some experiencecreating with both acoustic and digital media, because they’re both so rich and enabledifferent kinds of imagination.
KW: Is there anything you’d like to comment on regarding teaching?
JS: At UVA and elsewhere, my teaching has been another part of the collaborative process. I have found the exchangeof ideas and repertoire to be a meaningful
kind of collaboration, both with graduate
students and undergraduates. For instance,
when I developed a course in songwriting,I decided to start each class with a student
performing a favorite song. It was a terrific
way not only to foster exchange between
the performer and the class, but also a way
to expand our repertoire. It was a fascinating experience, with multiple surprises.
Another example concerns the development of a course in choral composition. I
had taught a number of acoustic instrumentclasses and computer music classes, andeventually I said to myself, “Hm. I love choral writing. Why isn’t there a Choral Composition class?” I started looking around,and I found some classes in choral arranging, but I didn’t find any in choral composition. So, I decided to create one. That circles
back to your question about texted music,
and how strange I still find it that there is so
Warren, An Interview with Judith Shatin

little time devoted to creating texted musicin most composition courses. I think that it
has to do with the outdated idea that “absolute music” is better than texted music. Thatis a long-standing canard. I deeply, deeply
disagree with that notion, so I was very excited to start a Choral Composition course.
I would like to see texted music on thesame playing field as instrumental music. It
seems strange to me to make that dichotomy.
I think of all music—because it is engaged
with utterance—as having emotional and narrative qualities. We may not think linguistically, semantically as we’re experiencing music,
but when we want to think about and communicate about it, we need words.
KW: You have been a staunch advocate forwomen in new music for decades. What aresome of your proudest achievements, andwhat is the next step for improving our approach to gender equality?
JS: When I started composing seriously in 1971, I didn’t see women composers
around—I didn’t know any, I didn’t know ofany. While at Juilliard I met Victoria Bondand was excited to hear some of her music, as well as music by Joan Tower and a
few others; then at Princeton I was happy
to meet Hilary Tann, Kristi Allik, and Stefania de Kenessey. Afterwards, when I joined
BMI, Gilbert Roy, Head of Classical Music,
suggested that I contact Tommie Carl, who
had founded American Women Composers. I became very involved in that organization, serving as Secretary and later as President (1989 to 1993). One of the great things
about it was finding a multitude of fascinating women composers and meeting so manyof them. These included Ruth Schonthal,
Alexandra Pierce, Sally Reid, Janet Peachy,

Elizabeth Hinkle-Turner, to name just a few
who were active in AWC. I won’t go into
more detail here, as J. Michele Edwards focused on this history in a previous interview.
I’ll just say how pleased I am that the IAWM
continues to flourish in so many ways.
No doubt being a composer of concert
music in the U.S. (and beyond) is challenging, whatever one’s gender. However, it’s
clear that there’s much more to achieve
in terms of programming contemporary
music in general and music by women inparticular. While there have been major
strides, especially recently, the problem isby no means solved. We can all help bringchange. I made sure to include music by avariety of women composers such as Linda Dusman, Elianie Lillios, Maggie Payne,
Lois Vierk, Amy Williams, Frances White,and many others in my courses. This is crucial, and all of us can participate throughour teaching, performance, research, and,of course, listening!
Other current and upcoming events:
May 19, Dust and Shadow (solo organ), Gail Archer, Golden Anniversary Organ Recital at St. Bede’s Episcopal Church;
Menlo Park, CA
August 3, Ruah (flute concerto) by the
Aspen Contemporary Ensemble
August 4-11, Composer in Residence,
Bennington Chamber Music Conference.
For additional information, please visit
www.judithshatin.com
Kristina Warren composes music for and withchamber ensembles, builds and performs withunique electronic instruments, improvises withlaptop and voice, and teaches electronic music
and multimedia as Visiting Assistant Professor at
Brown University. (www.kmwarren.org)

The IAWM Journal 25 Years Ago
As the Journal celebrates its 25th anniversary, we look back to Volume 1, No. 1, and,surprisingly, the lead article was by this year’s honored composer, Judith Shatin! Her
article, “Histories of the AWC, ICWM and ILWC,” describes the three women in musicorganizations (American Women Composers, International Congress on Women in Music, and International League of Women Composers) that merged to form the IAWM.
In her introductory remarks, Journal editor Sylvia Glickman wrote: “We want you towrite about your accomplishments, your interests, your research, your concern, andyour ideas on how to make the twenty-first century the Century of Women in Music.”
Her comment is still appropriate today. The issue also included a welcome message
from President Stefania de Kenessey, a memorial tribute to Elizabeth Maconchy, technology tips from Sally Reid, and a discussion of Virgil Thomson’s music reviews in
the New York Herald Tribune. The author described his reviews as “models of good
criticism.” The volume also included book and CD reviews, reports on conferences
and festivals, announcements, awards, and members’ news. The Journal was publishedthree times a year and averaged about 40 pages per issue.
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