Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed ..

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

12/18/08 8:50 PM

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files
PhotosPending
Links
Database
Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Show off your group to
the world. Share a photoof your group with us.

Best of Y! Groups

Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed..
Reply | Forward | Delete

Topic List

Start Topic< Prev Topic | Next
Topic >< Prev Message | Next Message >I recently I asked on Pat Zalewski's forum the following
question.
me>BTW: Isn't it true that you changed the 5=6 ceremony
to removeme> all references to Christian symbolism. Veryinteresting, just whatme> have you been initiated into Pat. Sounds very
Thelemic to me?
Pat replied this:PZ> No you are lying. See page 126 of the Equinox and
Solstice
PZ> ceremonies of the GD which says different. Also see
GarethPZ> Knight's blurb on the back cover which also echoes
what I wrote.

Sat Jul 5, 2008 4:35 pm
Hide Message Info

#17246 of 18125
Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines"Fr Anguis Caballus Alatus
Serpens"<guild_decabalis@yahoo.com>
frater_acas
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

Not only does Pat call me a liar, but his quotes his own
book as his
defence. This is likened to a liar, calling an examiner a liar
andthen offering previous lies to protect current lies.
For the benefit the Golden Dawn community here is sometruth on Pat Z.
Please read the below email. The only edits are (1)CAPITALS are minein the email. (2) I have removed the surname of sender tohttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17246

Page 1 of 6

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed ..

Check themout andnominate yourgroup.

12/18/08 8:50 PM

protect
privacy.
/EMAIL follows
Received: from f114.law10.hotmail.com ([64.4.15.114]
helo=hotmail.com)
by tyler.snap.net.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 )id 18dTKY-0006ox-00
for <cabilis@snap.net.nz>; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:51:02+1300
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with
Microsoft
SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:51:00 -0800
Received: from 62.49.45.19 by
lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:50:59 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [62.49.45.19]
From: "Tony Fuller" <yesod26@hotmail.com>
aka Anthony Fleming
To: cabilis@snap.net.nz
Bcc:
Subject: Re: Fw: attachment /2
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:50:59 +1300
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID:<F114DqaJY4kJSFsxf4y0000005b@hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jan 2003 10:51:00.0055 (UTC)
FILETIME=[24EDE670:01C2C6BB]
Hi Leonard,
Thanks. You raise some very good questions. As a matterof interest
the OTR is currently thriving as it has had a big injectionof new
SRIA members from the Robert Felkin SRIA College
which opened in
Havelock North about 3 years ago. Many of thesemembers are also
members of the FRC (Waites) which has also (last year)
opened a
Temple in Havelock North.
Several points about Pat. He was originally a member of
the OTO before
joining the OTR which led to him ex Whare Ra members.
Pat has always
been rather anti- Christian and never liked the Christianemphasiswhich Felkin and other prominent Whare Ra people were,
including about
20 clergymen and even a Bishop! Frank's father was a 5=6
member andalso a clergyman. Did you know that apart from his father,Franks'smother, sister and another brother were also members fora while.
You are right that Jack Taylor and most other Whare Ra
people would

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17246

Page 2 of 6

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed ..

12/18/08 8:50 PM

never use Crowley or Regardie material. You are also
absolutely rightthat Pat often attributes his own ideas and techniques toJack Taylor(and indeed to other GD members including Mathers). Pat
does thisfrequently in his books (I have numerous examples). So,
yes, Pat
certainly does claim things to be Whare Ra when they arenot. The
safest rule with Pat's material regarding whether or not it
is Whare
Ra or GD is unless you have actually seen a photocopy ofthe original
document assume it is Pat's own work.
This is not really a criticism of Pat, who I have remained
friendly
with, but it is not a procedure I would ever adopt myself.
But I dodisapprove of it in the sense that it misleads people and iscertainlyinaccurate from the historical perspective. There are many
people whoread Pat's books who believe that they are reading andstudying Whare
Ra perspectives - sadly they are not with a few minor
exceptions.
Also one has to remember that Jack Taylor had his own
often rather
eccentric views which were not necessarily shared by the
Chiefs orother members.
I recently read on the Net an interview Pat did with forsome journal.
It is safe to say Pat stretches the truth a little. Pat wasnever amember of Whare Ra. HE NEVER WENT THROUGH
THE GRADES AND INDEED, IF I
RECALL CORRECTLY , ONLY WENT THROUGH SOMESORT OF ASTRAL VERSION OF
THE 5=6 WHERE BECAUSE OF HIS OBJECTIONS TOCHRISTIANITY, CHANGED THE
OBLIGATION AND OTHER PARTS. Likewise the 7=4Grade, and I'm not sure
about the 6=5 but I think this was also "given" astrally. Pat
told methat for his 7=4 Jack sat in his wheelchair and got him tovisualise
the ritual. Pat admitted to me he had no idea what thevarious 7=4
signs or sigils were nor knew how the ceremony was
supposed to unfold(it is actually very complex and the published ritual gives
none ofthe directions - Frank provided me with this).
Pat does not carry any lineage (as he fully admits). The
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17246

Page 3 of 6

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed ..

12/18/08 8:50 PM

OTR does notreally have any significant teaching apart from its rituals.
It is avery interesting Order (I have the rituals and many otherold papers
from the OTR) - It reminds more of a type of GD version
of a Masonicritual.
Jack was a very interesting man who devoted his entire life
to theWork. But he was decidedly eccentric and was never madea Chief
because he was considered unstable. He actually left
Whare Ra in themid 1960s and devoted himself to the OTR. He changed
the rituals(introducing Enochian which was never present before)
and admitted
women as members. By the time Pat met Jack he was in
his eighties,
very frail and in a wheelchair. By this time Jack believedthat the GD
system was no longer appropriate for the time (1980s) andwhile he was
happy to help Pat and give his explanations, he also
advised Pat (in aletter of which I have a copy) to "forget the GD" and workwith othermethods. So, there was no Charter nor lineage (which Jackwas not entitled to give anyway).
Once again this should not be read as a criticism or put
down of Pat
but it is simply what I understand to be the accurate
history.
Warm regards
Tony/END EMAIL.
In the email there is a a lot of information.
In summary, my original question was "BTW: Isn't it truethat youchanged the 5=6 ceremony to remove all references to
Christiansymbolism. Very interesting, just what have you been
initiated into
Pat. Sounds very Thelemic to me?" is a honest question,and given theinformation above, once again Pat Z has shown
himself up for what he really is.
In my view: Given that Pat Z has 'never' gone through any
G.D
ceremony; and given that Pat's initial magical training isThelemic
OTO; And considering the fact that he changed the 5=6 tohttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17246

Page 4 of 6

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed ..

12/18/08 8:50 PM

some kind ofastral version (whatever that means) after removing theChristiansymbolism within the Golden Dawn ceremony... thefollowing must be
asked 'Just how valid can Pat's theological analysis andtheories of
the Dawn actually be?'In my view Pat Z has mislead the public for years about theGoldenDawn. And on a personal note, no person who has everstudied Aleister
Crowley would be particually impressed with Pat's ideas..
because tome they just seem to be rehashed Crowley.
Jean
Refs:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawngroup/message/6536
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawngroup/message/6542
Email TF to Jean Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:50:59 +1300
Notes: Cross posted Griffin and Zink forum due tohistorial
importance.PDF to be made up.
http://etoile.topcities.com/GD/

Reply

Forward | Delete< Prev Message | Next Message >Expand Messages

Pat Zalewski G.D deception further revealed ..
I recently I asked on Pat Zalewski's forum the following
question. me>BTW: Isn't it true that you changed the 5=6
ceremony to remove me> all references to...
Re: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further
revealed ..
The worst deception and betrayal going on here Lenny("VH Frater jean de cabalis" -- who never got initiatedin any GD grades yourself), is the promise you...
Re: Pat Zalewski G.D deception further
revealed ..
You are misinformed Barry.. nevertheless I will not
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17246

AuthorSort by Date

Fr Anguis Caballus Al...
frater_acas

Jul 5, 2008
5:35 pm

BarryG
shema626

Jul 5, 2008
7:53 pm

Fr Anguis Caballus Al...
frater_acas

Jul 6, 2008
2:29 pm

Page 5 of 6

golden-dawn-group : Message: here we go again

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

12/18/08 8:51 PM

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Member - Edit Membership

golden-dawn-group · O.G.D. - Pat Zalewski - Martin Thibeault
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Topic List

< Prev Topic | Next Topic >Fileshere we go again

PhotosLinks
Database
Polls
Calendar

Reply | Forward< Prev Message | Next Message >Hi
Oh well from Tony where he reveals his true colours:

Groups Labs
(Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Want to share photos ofyour group with theworld? Add a group
photo to Flickr.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominateyour group.

I recently read on the Net an interview Pat did with for some journal.
It is safe to say Pat stretches the truth a little. Pat was never amember of Whare Ra (never said I was) . HE NEVER WENT
THROUGH THE
GRADES AND INDEED, IF I
RECALL CORRECTLY , ONLY WENT THROUGH SOME SORT OF
ASTRAL VERSION OF
THE 5=6 WHERE BECAUSE OF HIS OBJECTIONS TOCHRISTIANITY, CHANGED THE
OBLIGATION AND OTHER PARTS.

Sat Jul 5, 2008 11:55 pm
Show Message Info"zalewski2003"<jabb9239@...>
zalewski2003
OfflineSend EmailP. Tony get tour facts right and you certainly do not recall thiscorrectly. This is crap. I never went through a 5=6 under Jack but
straight into a 6=5. So that is first error. This is on record in thisforum. Chris went to a straight 5-6 because we worked a temple prior
to that. Jack re-wordered my oath not because it was unchristian but
because he did not want to bind me to not revealing it. Christianity
had nothing to do with it. That is your second. You know this anyway
and I have said this many times but you have obviously read into it
what you wanted.
T..Likewise the 7=4 Grade, and I'm not sure
about the 6=5 but I think this was also "given" astrally. Pat told methat for his 7=4 Jack sat in his wheelchair and got him to visualise
the ritual. Pat admitted to me he had no idea what the various 7=4
signs or sigils were nor knew how the ceremony was supposed to
unfoldP..I said I did not seen the cube of the 7=4 or know what it looked

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6574

Page 1 of 3

golden-dawn-group : Message: here we go again

12/18/08 8:51 PM

like apart from Jacks description. I know the signs and in fact I gavethem to Martin, and he will pass them on to others when required.
Jack
did have some difficulty with the first one sitting in a wheel chair
but the others no problem.
For years you have acted like friend and have been third personing
behind my back. You are not a trustworthy individual if you had any
problems then you could have come to me and asked me straight tomyface. Did I tell you the 7=4 signs of Whare ra, no I did not because
you were not in the GD when you asked me and I sure as hell was
never
going to show them to you when you weren't in Order. You were in
BOTA
while living in the NZ. You never ran a temple there you think I wasgoing to come across with them then think again.
I do not know what agenda you are running or what games you areplaying at but you certainly did the dirty on Chic flat out saying one
thing then denying it about being in his Order. You are trying run
with the hounds and foxes Tony and it doesn't work. You owe Chic
andTabby a real apology.
Now Lenny is probably jumping for joy with all this chaos but you
decided to teach that half wit and have to live with it, as I willwith some of my choices. You come on like St. Francis of Assisi Tony
but you are credit to your early career. You may as well go and playin the sand box with Lenny and Griffin as it would be a real bun fightto see has the most gongs and who is the truest GD Order and that is
no doubt what you will push and good lick to you. I am on my journey
now and really not care who claims what these days. Since we bothturned 60 this year time is not on our side for this nonsense of theemperors clothes. I have claimed my ranks and work my own systemandthat is what I work with with. You can shove the rest of your opinions
up your arse for all I care and you have shown your self to be a
deceptive SOB and a man of straw.
Now you better cuddle up to your pal Griffin,and I am sure you'll get
a great big kiss from him for standing up for truth, justice and thelineage way.
Pat

Reply

Forward

Expand Messages

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6574< Prev Message | Next Message >AuthorSort by Date

Page 2 of 3

golden-dawn-group : Message: Re: [golden-dawn-group] here we go again

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

12/18/08 8:52 PM

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Member - Edit Membership

golden-dawn-group · O.G.D. - Pat Zalewski - Martin Thibeault
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Topic List

< Prev Topic | Next Topic >Fileshere we go again

PhotosLinks
Database
Polls
Calendar

Reply | Forward< Prev Message | Next Message >Re: [golden-dawn-group] here we go again
Dear Pat,Sun Jul 6, 2008 1:22 pm
Show Message Info

Groups Labs
(Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Real people. Realstories. See how Yahoo!
Groups impacts
members worldwide.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominateyour group.

I amazed as to what could have brought about this little tantrum.
Other than Lenny resuscitating those old e maiils of mine (which we
previously dealt with) and which he surely will keep on doing toeternity, I have not made any comment, apart from the statement
regarding Jack Taylor where I agreed with the wisdom of you
rejecting his advice.

Anthony Fleming<nthnyflmng@...>
nthnyflmng
OfflineSend Email

Regarding the para. you quote from me about your 5=6, I don't
actually recall this but it does sound like one of mine. Irrespective,
however I must confess I can't understand why you are so upset. You
obviously agree with me that you did not go through the Outer
Grades, as I state, and now you are saying you did not go through the
5=6. Does this not say in other words what I was saying other thanwhat is a new fact to me, namely that you did not through the 5=6
either.In any event I stand corrected that you entered at the 6=5
rather than the 5=6 level. and I apologise for my error.

However, I must observe that the para. you quote would have simply
been an honest answer to a question, put to me, namely; 'What
Grades did Pat go through?' and I answered as I understood it. It
should also be noted that in your first book you say (p.60), "When I
was first initiated into the R.R. et. A.C. by Jack Taylor, I found myself
at loggerheads with the Christian viewpoint in interpreting theseenergies". I hope you will agree that it was not an unreasonableassumption to make that you were referring to the 5=6, given the factthat this is the first of the RR et AC ceremonies where the Christian
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6590

Page 1 of 6

golden-dawn-group : Message: Re: [golden-dawn-group] here we go again

12/18/08 8:52 PM

symbolism is most apparent.

Nevertheless, with this more recent news I am all themore impressed. Knowing how very strict the Whare Ra members
were about the Grade system they clearly broke every single rule foryou, not merely skipping all the Outer Grades but also the first vital
Grade on the Inner. Evidently they fully recognized your high adept
status and I congratulate you on this.

Actually I did not ask you for the 7=4 signs but whether you knew
what they were. The reason why I asked you, if you can recall, wasthat there were a considerable number of errors in your publishedritual and, trying to be helpful, I wanted to know if you wished me togive you these. Similarly, I pointed out to you that considerable errors
and gaps were also in the 6=5, particularly the obligation. As I
remember, you were not interested and said you had published it as
you had received it. Yes I was active in BOTA but also simultaneously
active with a dozen or so Whare Ra people who, with the blessing ofJohn von Dadelszen (which I have in writing) wished to keep theOrder going. Most have died since but three are still alive and incontact with me. We worked all the Grades and as I was not, alas ,considered by them to be of your stature, was made to go throughthem all.

I have absolutely no agenda at all other than trying to ensure that an
accurate account of events is portayed and preserved. Sometimes,
perhaps often, I make errors but these are genuine mistakes forwhich I will readily acknowledge, and where appropriate, apologisefor. But I have nothing to apologise for, however, to Chic and Tabby.
I was a nominal member of their board and occasionally, andprobably unsuccessfully, tried to assist in a number of respects. For avariety of reasons not relevant here we parted formal company on
good terms.

You are dead right about Lenny however. I also plead guilty to having
often been naive in my dealings with people and this was one such
instance. Another is where people have asked me for papers 'purely
for their own study and wish to progress'. I have often acceded tothese requests only to find them these very same papers published a
few years later under their own name. I have never once been asked
whether I am happy with this exposure. Since this appears to be atime for frankness I will acknowledge that it is for the above reason
that I have evaded your several requests to me over the years for thehigher grade rituals and papers (additional to those already givenyou) because I did not want them to be merely fodder for a new book.
As you know I frequently helped you in editing some of your earlier
books - this is a subject on which I could say more but will refrainfrom doing so.

Regarding David Griffin your comments are merely childish. My
defence of his e mail and criticism of yours was solely a matter ofpointing out that he had written an unemotional statement on several
occult matters which he believed to be fact. These did not, I believe,
deserve the sort of vitriolic response you gave him and which did you
little credit. I am still of this view, and also of the vbelief that the
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6590

Page 2 of 6

golden-dawn-group : Message: Re: [golden-dawn-group] here we go again

12/18/08 8:52 PM

term 'Exempt Adept' does not refer to any exemption from thenormal courtesies which should characterise any exchange of views(still less between adepti) but rather to certain exemptions from beinga slave to the passional self. Notwitstanding my coming across 'like
St. Francis of Assisi' I am assuredly not a saint of any description. But
I do try to live up to the obligations I took in various places, eventhough this often involves failure. This appears to be an unpopular
habit.

Tony Fuller--- On Sun, 7/6/08, zalewski2003 <jabb9239@...> wrote:
From: zalewski2003 <jabb9239@...>
Subject: [golden-dawn-group] here we go again
To: golden-dawn-group@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 7:55 AMHi
Oh well from Tony where he reveals his true colours:
I recently read on the Net an interview Pat did with forsome journal.
It is safe to say Pat stretches the truth a little. Pat wasnever amember of Whare Ra (never said I was) . HE NEVER
WENT THROUGH THE
GRADES AND INDEED, IF I
RECALL CORRECTLY , ONLY WENT THROUGH
SOME SORT OF ASTRAL VERSION OF
THE 5=6 WHERE BECAUSE OF HIS OBJECTIONS TOCHRISTIANITY, CHANGED THE
OBLIGATION AND OTHER PARTS.
P. Tony get tour facts right and you certainly do notrecall thiscorrectly. This is crap. I never went through a 5=6
under Jack but
straight into a 6=5. So that is first error. This is on
record in thisforum. Chris went to a straight 5-6 because we worked
a temple prior
to that. Jack re-wordered my oath not because it was
unchristian but
because he did not want to bind me to not revealing it.
Christianity
had nothing to do with it. That is your second. You
know this anyway
and I have said this many times but you have obviously
read into it
what you wanted.
T..Likewise the 7=4 Grade, and I'm not sure
about the 6=5 but I think this was also "given" astrally.
Pat told methat for his 7=4 Jack sat in his wheelchair and got him
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6590

Page 3 of 6

golden-dawn-group : Message: Re: davids in the area again

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

12/18/08 8:53 PM

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Member - Edit Membership

golden-dawn-group · O.G.D. - Pat Zalewski - Martin Thibeault
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Topic List

< Prev Topic | Next Topic >Filesdavids in the area again

PhotosLinks
Database
Polls
Calendar

Reply | Forward< Prev Message | Next Message >Re: davids in the area again
Hit TonyGroups Labs
(Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Real people. Realstories. See how Yahoo!
Groups impacts
members worldwide.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominateyour group.

What happened was that before I started I put myself through all therituals up to 5-6. Pretty much in the way Chic laid out in his self
initiation book which was not in print then. I then started up atemple and worked the elemental rituals in group. I did what Mathers
and Westcott did and self promoted myself from written material.
Before I met Taylor he wrote and told me his astral contacts-whoever
or whatever told him I was coming up to see him and give me as
muchhelp as possible. Oddly enough we had booked a flight up to the areaaweek before and arrived on doorstep the day after I received his
letter. When we got there there was large group of ex whare ra
memberspresent and Taylor told them point blank that he was contacted
astrally about our coming and wave the oath(as we were doing therituals anyway) and help me with what I needed. Most of this is in the
Secret Inner order Ritual Book. It took a year or so before he gaveme the 6=5 (after I had been taught the "proper" elemental grades)andnot straight away as some people have assumed. Taylor had twoconvictions as far as I was concerned. The first was his astral
teachers or whatever told him to help us and the second was that hedid not have much time left, as he was in his 80s, and we worked
quickly. Taylor had been approached by a few people to teach the GD
tothem but refused. His main interest at that time was the OTR but hewent back into the GD to help us due to his astral contacts. It was
his contacts that opened the door for us. Without them we would have
got nowhere. Who or what they were I do not know, but I do thankthem.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/7830

Sun Nov 2, 2008 12:31 pm
Show Message Info"zalewski2003"<jabb9239@...>
zalewski2003
OfflineSend Email

Page 1 of 4

golden-dawn-group : Message: Re: davids in the area again

12/18/08 8:53 PM

When Professor Bob Elwood came to NZ for his book "Islands of theDawn" and included the GD part (see our files section) I put him
touchwith Taylor's son, who was an ex whare ra member and then OTR
head;
Bob got the same story as I have written above. The truth is I wasshown a lot of things by different ex whare ra members, and not justJack. They all pitched in, rolled up their sleeves and helped.
Pat. --- In golden-dawn-group@yahoogroups.com, "Tony DeLuce"<tony.deluce@...> wrote:>> Ave Pat,>
> It is my understanding that you worked all the Rituals up to 5=6 fora> decade with your own group before beginning Work with Jack
Taylor who> then took you into the 6=5. You then you went back and studied
under> Jack Taylor and others and worked all the prior Rituals from a very
> advanced standpoint. I also understand that you conferred the First> and Second Order Grades on the Initiates of your Temple.
>> I know you don't teach Lineage, etc. but from my personal> standpoint this is a much superior and practical situation than> receiving your Elemental Initiations from someone who never evenwent
> through the Elemental Initiations herself! I just don't understand> how someone in such a ridiculous situation can continue to caststones> someone with your distinguished background.
>> I was having a hard time understand this persons "logic" for his> assertions until I realized there are none. You just can't win with> him, he will twist everything you state or write to suite his own> twisted agenda. It is very sad to watch such a pathetic display on his> part.
>> He has made himself a laughing stock of the Golden Dawn
community and> there are not very many who take him serious ( fortunately or> unfortunately, however you want to look at it ).
>> in L.V.X.,>> Tony>>>> --- In golden-dawn-group@yahoogroups.com, "zalewski2003"> <jabb9239@> wrote:>>> > Hi>>> > I see DG is dropping heavy hints as to the sex magick of the AO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/7830

Page 2 of 4

golden-dawn-group : Message: Cross-Posted to HOGD/AO and Zalewski forums, was Re: Reply to Sincerus Renatus

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

12/18/08 8:55 PM

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Member - Edit Membership

golden-dawn-group · O.G.D. - Pat Zalewski - Martin Thibeault
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Topic List

< Prev Topic | Next Topic >Files

Reply to Sincerus Renatus

PhotosLinks
Database
Polls
CalendarGroups Labs
(Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Hear how Yahoo!
Groups has changed thelives of others. Take methere.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominateyour group.

Reply | Forward< Prev Message | Next Message >Cross-Posted to HOGD/AO and Zalewski forums, was Re:
Reply to Sincerus Renatus

Wed Jul 9, 2008 4:01 pm
Show Message Info

Hi SamuelYou summed it up pretty well and the papers on the undines, gnomes
etc
form Whare ra never had authorship attached to it, as you has
deduced.

"zalewski2003"<jabb9239@...>
zalewski2003
OfflineSend EmailTo make some of my works coherent I had to blend in different
thoughts
of different people with my own. If I would have said "this is fromwhare ra" on every bit of teaching then the 0=0 and 1=10 books etc
would be impossible to read. Where things were clear I placed theminmodules like the inner teachings book and carefully explained where
each part came from, a point Thomas did not mention. Tony's post on
the Prince of Darkness' forum was essentially a good one and pretty
well sums up the type of teaching except for the snide remark in thelast sentence. Which I will address in part below
Whare Ra had different teachers for each area and each went theirown
way to a certain extent. Frank salt for example wrote his own papers
for his group. Jack on the other hand was anther Gemini like me andwas incessantly giving out information that was not always written.He
was a feel person with remarkable clairvoyant gifts. So to work an
established norm was difficult and what I did was say what the groupI
knew told me.I stress group here and not just Taylor. The course
structure for each level was not always shown.The Nairns, who were
under Frank were not given the standard course structure when theywent through in the 1950s and Frank substituted biblical studies

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6647

Page 1 of 10

golden-dawn-group : Message: Cross-Posted to HOGD/AO and Zalewski forums, was Re: Reply to Sincerus Renatus

12/18/08 8:55 PM

instead. Bill Oliver and the Gilmore's did the same did the same. So
the Christian element was strong and often substituted for orderteachings in some instances by more than one officer. Jack who wasdevout Church of England would not hear of it and said when they
didthat the GD was like Sunday School. Percy Wilkinson who was aleading
light in the C of England also commented to me the magick element
wasbeing taken out of Whare ra by teachers like this. So In my book when
I gave whare ra teachings I gave what I was told by essentially agroup of people who lived in different areas and were taught bydifferent teachers in different periods and that to me were theingredients of establishing a norm. The OTR was the place where they
all met and I worked in full ritual with many of these people over theyears and also when they would turn up at Jacks, Jack would often
tellthem to take me down to the hall and show me. Some times Jack
would
come and sometimes not. So that is where my experience came from.I
had
my own temple at that point and was already initiating but had to go
down to the OTR hall and start from the 0=0 up and work througheach
GD ritual and analyze it. I did this with Jack on his own and with asmall of ex whare ra group at different times. That way they picked up
my ritual errors, and there were many when learning form a book,andoffered my much advice, a great deal of it is in my books. And today I
am told, on another forum, that this does not count only a temple
warrant from an approved GD AO school. So you go figure this one.
I would like point out a few things. Tony Fuller is an excellent
Historian and I generally agree a great deal with his summations ofWhare ra. Personally I would not trust him again as far as I could
throw him (nor he me for that matter), but putting that aside, it in
no way diminishes his knowledge which was got by knowing whare ra
people, primarily through his work in BOTA and the papers hecollected
over the years. But Tony as a member of BOTA was never a memberof the
GD and never had a working GD temple when I knew him. BOTA ofcoursewould never allow this and he was the main man under Chesterman,
who
headed BOTA in that country. I worked with the Whare ra people inritual from the OTR which also incorporated many GD teachings suchaspentagram, hexagram, rituals and talisman work. I also had a chancetobe trained in GD ritual with them by them taking me down to theOTRhall and showing me pertinent points of ritual that I needed morework
on or could not understand from written instructions. So his views
were though his own BOTA experience, the written papers hecollected
and having visits to elderly adept.Mine were though collecting papers
and listening to stories and doing the GD and OTR rituals with thepeople concerned. So there would be differing viewpoints.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6647

Page 2 of 10

golden-dawn-group : Message: Cross-Posted to HOGD/AO and Zalewski forums, was Re: Reply to Sincerus Renatus

12/18/08 8:55 PM

I praised Tony to the heavens in the introduction to my secretteachings book and do not regret doing so one iota today even in spiteof the rift between us.He is the most knowledge man on the old GD
history today, full stop period. My journey in the GD today is not thepast though. I knew the GD was left unfinished and what I wanted todo
was try and finish some of the teachings. To do this I went my own
way.As Martin says I pick up patterns in the GD and extrapolatethem.
The full levels of the 5=6 is an example of that by following the way
Mathers was originally going in the ZAM and THAM. The view forthesehigher levels is clearly my own- but through Mathers frame for eachlevel.That was pattern I deduced, and that is the pattern I use today.
Now we come to this 7=4 nonsense. I told a former student that was
initially given the 7=4 without benefit of ceremony, in a hospital
bed. This is true. What was not said that later Jack put me through inritual in his living room, without props and me taking directions from
Jack. So what you got was part of story that suited the agenda of theperson stating it and who simply ignored the rest. The problem isthat
too many people knew about it. Jack told Chesterman, world head of
BOTA who told Paul Clarke and many others. They knew it in the US
before I went there in 88 and not form me as I was not published bythen. Regardie also told a few. Nick Farrell also found this out when
he worked with many of the same people I did in the OTR. So thishalftruth falls on its face. But this does not really matter as I do not
use those rituals in my work.
I do not worry these days about who had what rank unless they makeanissue of it. Rank only relates to what your are in your own temple andoutside of it does not matter. It is who you are,what you are doing
and what you have accomplished in a certain areas that count withina
GD context. Either you know your stuff or you do not.
I Hope I have cleared up some points and misconceptions.
Pat
etc. never had an authtors --- In golden-dawngroup@yahoogroups.com,"S. Scarborough" <elxarp111@...> wrote:>> Greetings Frater S. R.:>> Below you will find my answers and comments. I have cut none
> relevant sections from your reply to me as to shorten the length of> this post.
>>> --- In golden-dawn-group@yahoogroups.com, "sincerusrenatus"> <sincerusrenatus@> wrote:>>>>> > > I was not prompted to speak for Pat. It is incumbent upon
> him to> > > answer your questions, as to why he has not, I cannot say (Ihttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-dawn-group/message/6647

Page 3 of 10

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski Attacks HOGD/A+O, Provides no "Proof" himself

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

12/18/08 8:47 PM

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Start Topic

Topic List

< Prev Topic |Next Topic >Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files
PhotosPending
Links
Database
Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement

Pat Zalewski Attacks HOGD/A+O, Provides no"Proof" himself
Reply | Forward | Delete< Prev Message | Next Message >I noticed that Pat Zalewski's attack forum today posted yet
another direct attack on Desmond Bourke and Druidry,
indirectly attacking the HOGD/A+O today. I also noticethat Zalewski has not addressed any of the issues raisedeither by myself or by his long time student and housemate,
Sam Robinson, but merely demanded more proof of others
like always.
I therefore attempted to cross-post the following post there.
It was, of course, censored by Pat Zalewski. He just went
on with his defamation business as usual thinly disguisedwith his usual pseudo-historical veneer.
____________________________
Cross Post: Re: Why does Pat Zalewski keep attacking druidry?

Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Discover ways to improveyour group. Check out
Moderator Central.

Best of Y! Groups

When pressed about misrepresenting his alleged 7=4 initiation,
Pat Zalewski quit attacking others long enough to deceitfully write
today:

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:50 pm
Hide Message Info

#11610 of 18125
Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines"fraterkrz"<fraterkrz@yahoo.com>
fraterkrz
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author>I don't claim any lineage because in the first place Jack Taylor>initiated me on his own behalf and that had nothing to do withWhare
>Ra which had finished by the time I got to Havelock North.The
second>is that what I teach goes way beyond what I learned from him
and it>would be ridiculous to consider all of this as Jack's teachings.
>Pat

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/11610/

Page 1 of 5

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski Attacks HOGD/A+O, Provides no "Proof" himself

Check themout andnominate yourgroup.

12/18/08 8:47 PM

Notice how Pat Zalewski changes colors like a chameleon when his
hateful and deceitful game is exposed like it has been again here in
the last 24 hours. One day after attacking the lineage of the Druids
and of the Alpha et Omega, Zalewski now states that he does not"claim" any "lineage." Notice that he still does not admit that hedoes
not "have" any lineage though. In other words, Pat Zalewski is
STILL
misleading the public about this. It should be noted that Zalewski
has
INDEED openly misled the public about his "lineage" on many
documentable occasions, yet still has not provided one single
shredof evidence to back it up. For example, Zalewski published a 7=4
certificate for Israel Regardie signed by Zalewski, thus creating themisleading impression that Zalewski was somehow entitled toissuesuch a certificate! When pressed on this, Zalewski changes the
subject, provides no proof whatsoever, yet continues to demand
unreasonable proof from others, ignores all evidence, and claims
that they have "no proof." Zalewski's latest attacks have beenlaunched at druidry lynch-pin Desmond Bourke, as well as key
druidry
figure G.W. MacGregor Reid, as well as the Alpha et Omega.
Notice how Zalewski demands "proof" from everyone but himself
and becomes slippery and slimy as an eel when pressed on his
own claims.
It should be noted that there have been extremely serious
allegations
raised by Pat Zalewski's former house mate and long time student,
Samuel Robinson (aka Frater Maui). Despite Zalewski's attacking
everyone from key SRIA members, key members of the Waite
order
and of druidry as well as the Alpha et Omega, Pat Zalewski has
himself not provided one single shred of evidence to show that theallegations made by Robinson are not completely valid.
For the benefit of new readers, I am republishing below the"whistle
blowing" Sam Robinson letters. In the first letter, Robinson
accuses
Pat Zalewski of lying about his 7=4 initiation (and consequently
misleading
the public about the lineage that goes with that grade). It also
accuses
Zalewski of lying about his experience with the Golden Dawn
system andalleges that Zalewski had not done any GD real work in over a
decade,far from the "25 years experience" that Zalewski has publicly
claimed.
The second letter exposes alleged Zalewski lies about the Thoth
Hermestemple, and claims that in reality this "Temple" only existed for
one year,
1999, didn't do much, and didn't even have proper temple
equipment(but rather only 'cardboard' wands). The third letter alleges that
Zalewski's
Canadian temple is illegally calling itself "Golden Dawn," and that

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/11610/

Page 2 of 5

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski Attacks HOGD/A+O, Provides no "Proof" himself

12/18/08 8:47 PM

its
Hierophant, Martin Thiebeault, is a major drug pusher!
(Thiebeault is also
the moderator of Zalewski's nearly defunct "attack" forum). In thisthird
letter, Robinson further accuses Zalewski of deceiving the public
abouthaving received any valid 7=4 initiation (and consequently aboutthelineage that goes with this grade as well) and of improperly taking
creditfor Zalewski's wife, Chris's, work. Here are the letters:
From: "Samuel Robinson" <fratermaui@...
Date: August 22, 2006 3:22:27 PM PDT
I was considering letting the whole G.D community know thetruth,
as there are many things Pat is saying that are not true, startingwithhis 7=4. You see he told me he never actually got the initiation. He
did get the 'ritual of transmission of the etheric link' read out tohimwhile Jack was laying down in bed. But as for the ritual of the 7=4
no, he did not go through it but has claimed for the last 30 years
that he did. Another thing is his 25 years experience of G.D work,
also not true. When I met him in 99, he had not done any G.D
activity for 10 years, so people can for starters remove that fromhis 'experience' there are many other things like this, such as
how his wife left him. I wanted to post it all out there in an official
place like a forum or something where everyone would see it but
decided not to because I don't like being too political. But those
are the circumstanced and training with him although taught
me many things, also was not all that it's made up to be. So
what are you going to do about it?
in LVX SamuelFrom: "Samuel Robinson" <fratermaui@…
Date: September 7, 2006 2:55:26 AM PDT
Thoth Hermes went for one year in 1999, that was it. He didn't
do much though, he would initiate people using cardboard bits
for the tools, and he would colour in things on paper and callit a 'wand' it was silly. Before that about another twelve
years at least.
From: "Samuel Robinson" <fratermaui@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:48 PM
Hi there
Do you really hold the G.D trademark in Canada? You justshouldn't
flat out let Martin Thibeault have the name full stop. That man isa bad guy, a really bad guy. In fact he is a drug dealer and I
know because I had to work for him, I was taken to Canada on theunderstanding that all meals etc would be covered by him. When I
got there he politely explained I had to work in his drug operations
if I wanted to eat because he didn't have 'enough money.' He hassome weird tactics. But I mainly left Pat because of his
involvementwith Martin, you know its not right and because Pat is claiming
false
things. Martin has created a false image of himself for his
students,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/11610/

Page 3 of 5

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Pat Zalewski Attacks HOGD/A+O, Provides no "Proof" himself

12/18/08 8:47 PM

in fact if you went to the authorities you will find that they'd nailhimbecause he owns a lot of property/assets etc but can in no way
account for his source of money. Hell I even know where he keeps
some of the drugs as I've been there and seen it all.
Pat does not really have a 7=4. He was given an honourary degreefrom Jack Taylor who transmitted him the etheric link ritual, but
again he did not get initiated into the 7=4 degree.
Pat wasn't based on the fact he told me so, and that he has been
making up teachings and attributing them to Jack Taylor quite
often. He laughed and boasted and said I should do the same tohimwhen he was dead. I don't think so!
I don't talk to anyone in the G.D at the moment. Pat has in fact
got kicked out of his home because he was doing black magic on
Chris Zalewski for years to keep their marriage together. He wasbinding her to make her stay. On the last fight she yelled at him
and told him 'no more mantras.' And then he decided to let it go
and see what happened. They made love, the next morning she
snapped out of it, and told him their life was a lie and kicked him
out. He fled to Australia.
His ego a bit because one thing I cannot stand are false claims in
the G.D. He and many other have created a large career on false
claims. He is quite the armchair magician too, never does any
magic, and is also now claiming an extensive alchemy experience.
However he is in fact taking credit for his wife's work as she was
the one who did it all. And if she found out she would be quite
pissed believe me.
in LVX Samuel

Reply

ForwardDelete|< Prev Message | Next Message >Expand Messages

Pat Zalewski Attacks HOGD/A+O, Provides no "Proof" himself
I noticed that Pat Zalewski's attack forum today posted yet anotherdirect attack on Desmond Bourke and Druidry, indirectly attacking the
HOGD/A+O today. I...

AuthorSort by Date

fraterkrz

Apr 17, 2007
8:55 pm< Prev Topic | Next Topic >Message #Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Start TopicSPONSOR RESULTS

Golden scooter

www.PlanetMobility.com - Golden scooter. With Fast Free Shipping & No Tax.

Golden Dawn

www.ebay.com - Shop Victoriously with eBay. Find exactly what you want now.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/11610/

Page 4 of 5

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

12/18/08 8:37 PM

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files

Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat
Zalewski)
Reply | Forward | Delete

PhotosPending
Links
Database

Topic List

Start Topic< Prev Topic | Next
Topic >< Prev Message | Next Message >Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat
Zalewski)

Sun Nov 2, 2008 10:04 pm
Hide Message Info

Hi again

Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Message search is now
enhanced, find messages
faster. Take it for a spin.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominate yourgroup.

That story sounds right, I remember something about an 8=3
paper.
For what its worth, Pat did tell me a few times he was attributing
his own ideas to Jack Taylor and laughed. Then he added thatwhen heis long dead I should do the same to him. The main reason I left
wasbecause the system went no-where. 5=6 was interesting,however once I
got to pats 6=5 I could clearly see it had no direction and totaly
lost spiritual focus. It was aimed at more intellectual study andhadlittle to do with spiritual evolution. In fact I felt everything I
had learned was of no spiritual value and had gotten me
nothing, but
getting me into trouble and depression. Another problem I had
aftersome long and hard searching was with Frater C.N. I was flowntoCanada on the promise that all meals would be provided etc.
When I
got there Martin politely explained I had to work in his drug
housesif I wanted to eat, it was a depressing climax of where all of Pats
teachings had taken me. The Cairns group ended up being abunch ofkids on drugs and Martin was no different. He even told me that
heintended for his 5=6 members to also work in some of thesedrughouses. I made a big mistake getting involved. I was young andstupid, to ease my mind and karma I take part and charity
events andhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17872#17872 of 18125
Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines"fratermaui"<fratermaui@yahoo.com>
fratermaui
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

Page 1 of 7

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

12/18/08 8:37 PM

had to spend a few months in mexico helping disabled people.
The endresult is, I wish I never met any of them. They are lying tothemselves and the gd. Martins explaination of why he wasselling
drugs was 'its for the good of the golden dawn' and I told Pat lasttime this would ruin the history of the gd. Its too late for thatnow.
in LVX Frater Maui--- In Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn@yahoogroups.com,
Gregory
Bohein <gbohein@...> wrote:>> Pat said>
> The latest version is that I was never initiated into the GD.
> > > Now Jack put me straight into the 6=5 because I had an
existing> > > temple....
>> No Pat was never initiated into the GD. Technically this 6=5
ritualhe claims was never a GD ritual. It was a Felkin invention basedonsomething to do with Steiner and anthroposophy and not GD at
all.
Further it was a Stella Matutina grade which was not Golden
Dawn,clearly the GD only went up to Adeptus Minor.
>> To clarify my last example, Pat told me point blank he wantedtoinvent his own sexual teachings and tell everyone he got themfromwhare ra. We had a yelling match over it and I said Pat you'remakingup teachings. When I saw Chris Zalewski last she regretted
working
the GD and said it was all a big mistake, adding that the life they
had lived was all a lie.
>
> Pat knows who I am, my last name is not Bohein but like him I
hadwhare ra connections. The last argument we had was that hewanted the
8=3 papers I had from whare ra and he tried to claim some story
thatthey were intended for him.
>
> Best, Greg

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17872

Page 2 of 7

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: Our Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski Forum Attacks

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

12/18/08 8:36 PM

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

SearchSign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Start Topic

Topic List

< Prev Topic |Next Topic >Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files
PhotosPending
Links
Database
Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
It's your group. Make itmarvelous. Check out
Moderator Central.

Best of Y! Groups

Quebec Zalewski OGD - Jouret OTS Suicide Cult
Connection?
Reply | Forward | Delete< Prev Message | Next Message >Re: Our Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski Forum
Attacks
Yes its marajuana but a high grade indoor grown version withconnections to hundreds of houses like it, and I dont need to go
on about suicide cults. The drugs 'allegation' is not an allegation,
its a fact because I saw it, was stupid enough to get involved andhad to pay for it karma wise in the finish. Martin is seriously
into organised crime though, but selling guns, I dont know, hejust said he would if he had to. On one side he imagines himself
some sort of 'great g.d leader' and right now he's probably
planning on having me shot for this. But as you noted I got
ridiculed and everyone has been told 'maui is evil' or something.
I stood back for a long time and watched my name be ridiculedand just silently got on with my own spiritual work. However
until now Ive been quiet. I decided it was right to come out
because I got sick of seeing all the BS Pat has continued to claim.
Pat has claimed alchemy experience for example, when his wife
did all the work. He also claims '30 years experience' when heknows well that when I met him in 1999 that he did not haveanything to do with any g.d work for ten years, so you can countthe practical experience only to 1988, because for the next six
years I knew Pat he still never did any work to be experienced
with (apart from one curse I once saw him do.) The whole courseof instruction was mental masterbation and counted for nothing
when venturing out in the real world. In fact my life got nothing
but worse and worse the longer I studied with him, climaxing in
max drug production in Canada with Martin. At first I was told
it was all harmless fun, but the more I stayed with it the moredepressed I got, it might be 'just marajuana' for some, but with

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17968

Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:26 pm
Hide Message Info

#17968 of 18125
Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines

Frater Maui<fratermaui@yahoo.com>
fratermaui
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

Page 1 of 9

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: Our Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski Forum Attacks

Check themout andnominate yourgroup.

12/18/08 8:36 PM

bulk production people sooner or later get hurt, Martin said he
had to 'beat up some black guy' and said 'you can never do drugs
deals with blacks because they will always rip you off.' But aside
from that the whole G.D there was like a slow brainwashingprogram, members not allowed to join certain groups, or certain
forums, and the higher you go the more limited your life
becomes. Members are told to say 'I seek to enter so that I may
serve' and end up undergoing some sort of 'ego-breaking'method Martin practices, telling students that if they arent
submitting to his 'rules' its because they arent humble enoughand therefore have an ego to overcome, next thing you know themembers are bowing to the lord of the temple. When I saw that
I told Pat and he said thats how it works. I left the G.D after
seeing that because for me the G.D inner order is a Rosicrucian
movement, which is meant to be more liberating, rather thansetting up a minature vatican with a pope.
That is my final say on it for now, I have better things to do, in
LVX Fra Maui--- On Thu, 11/20/08, HOGD/A+O Moderator<hogdmoderator@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: HOGD/A+O Moderator<hogdmoderator@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn]
Quebec Zalewski OGD - Jouret OTS Suicide Cult
Connection?
To: Hermetic-Order-of-the-GoldenDawn@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 5:47 AM-- In Hermetic-Order- of-the-GoldenDawn@yahoogroups .com, Frater Maui<fratermaui@ ...> wrote:>> Hi>> Martin didnt coerce me into selling drugs at all,he coerced me (ifI wasnt brainwashed) into producing them, and I
saw more than one
house set up like this where I had to stay because
he has a huge
operation running over there. Pat darn well knows
about it all because
I told him about it when it was happening and his
answers was that hedidnt care. In the finish I was basicaly told to shutup and after
realising it was the biggest mistake of my life I got
out, and havesince been making amends with myself andhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17968

Page 2 of 9

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: [Hermetic-Order-…n-Dawn] Re: Our Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski Forum Attacks

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

Search12/18/08 8:32 PM

Sign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files

Our Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski
Forum Attacks
Reply | Forward | Delete

PhotosPending
Links
Database

Topic List

Start Topic< Prev Topic | Next
Topic >< Prev Message | Next Message >Re: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re: Our
Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski Forum Attacks

Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:31 am
Hide Message Info

Hi

Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Exchange ideas with fellow
Moderators. Take me toModerator Central.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominate yourMartin didnt coerce me into selling drugs at all, he coerced me(if I wasnt brainwashed) into producing them, and I saw morethan one house set up like this where I had to stay because hehas a huge operation running over there. Pat darn well knows
about it all because I told him about it when it was happening
and his answers was that he didnt care. In the finish I was
basicaly told to shut up and after realising it was the biggest
mistake of my life I got out, and have since been making
amends with myself and communities with volunteering incommunity projects. Martins basic plan was to build a bigger
temple with his drug money, and he told me straight that hewould make money from guns, drugs or whatever, he didnt care
where the money came from so long as it was for 'the good of
the golden dawn.' He has one hundred reasons to justify it but
its just wrong.

#17963 of 18125
Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines

Frater Maui<fratermaui@yahoo.com>
fratermaui
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

in LVX Frater Maui--- On Thu, 11/20/08, HOGD/A+O Moderator<hogdmoderator@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: HOGD/A+O Moderator<hogdmoderator@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn]
Re: Our Order's Lineages & Renewed Zalewski
Forum Attacks
To: Hermetic-Order-of-the-GoldenDawn@yahoogroups.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17963

Page 1 of 5

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: AW: [Hermetic-Order-of…Dawn] Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

SearchSign Out

12/18/08 8:42 PM

Help

WEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Start Topic

Topic List

< Prev Topic |Next Topic >Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files

AW: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re:
Sexuality and the Golden
Reply | Forward | Delete

PhotosPending
Links
Database< Prev Message | Next Message >AW: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re: Sexuality
and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Sat Nov 1, 2008 2:23 am
Hide Message Info

Hi my name is Gregory

Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Show off your group to
the world. Share a photoof your group with us.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout andnominate yourgroup.

#17857 of 18125

Pat knows me well, as I studied with him in New ZealandThis will probably irk him, but some 20 years ago Pat told
me he didnt have any sexual teachings on the Golden
Dawn but had them from India from some guru of his. I
thought then that the G.D also had no sexual teachings andPats idea then was to make up his own and take the tantra,
and he said he would tell people it was the real thing. At
the time he had a big ego about it. So there you go he has
drasticaly changed his mind about g.d sex teachings. But asI said, he knows me well and it will irk the hell out of him
that I remember him saying it and our argument over it.

Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines

Gregory Bohein<gbohein@yahoo.de>gbohein
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

I always said 'Pat you're making up Golden Dawnteachings.' Having also been there, there were no chakra orseven rays teachings that I saw him teach in New Zealandwhich I see he is teaching now and saying came from Jack.
From memory he also once told me his Adeptus Minor wasan astral initiation or something about being taken throughit mentaly.
Best, Greg
Von: G..H. Frater L.E.S. <luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com>
An: Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 30. Oktober 2008, 23:39:26 Uhr

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17857

Page 1 of 4

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: AW: [Hermetic-Order-of…Dawn] Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

Hi, David

Search12/18/08 8:40 PM

Sign OutHelpWEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Start Topic

Topic List

< Prev Topic |Next Topic >Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files

AW: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re:
Sexuality and the Golden
Reply | Forward | Delete

PhotosPending
Links
Database< Prev Message | Next Message >AW: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re: Sexuality
and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Sat Nov 1, 2008 2:31 am
Hide Message Info

I thought this was a good post from Pat.

Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
Message search is now
enhanced, find messages
faster. Take it for a spin.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout and#17858 of 18125

He finaly admitted he did not get initiated into the 7=4,
which Maui originaly said.
In New Zealand Jack was considered a trouble maker at
Whare Ra. He had not participated in whare ra activity foraround 15 years so by the time Pat came onto the scene
Jack had nothing to do whare ra at all, though Im not sureif he got expelled or what the story was.
Gregory

Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines

Gregory Bohein<gbohein@yahoo.de>gbohein
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

Von: G..H. Frater L.E.S. <luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com>
An: Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Samstag, den 1. November 2008, 01:27:47 Uhr
Betreff: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re: Sexuality
and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Pat Zalewski "zalewski2003" <jabb9239@.. .> just wrote:>> Hi>> I find it amazing how when people make their mind up
on what Pat

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17858

Page 1 of 4

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Yahoo!

My Yahoo!

Mail

More

Make Y! My Homepage

12/18/08 8:39 PM

Hi, David

Sign Out

SearchHelp

WEB SEARCH

Start a Group | My Groups

luxexseptentrio... · luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com | Group Owner - Edit Membership

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn · International Golden Dawn Forum
Search for other groups...

SearchMessagesHome
Messages

Message #Messages Help

Go Search:

SearchAdvanced

Pending
Spam?

[Delete]

Post
Files

Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat
Zalewski)
Reply | Forward | Delete

PhotosPending
Links
Database

Topic List

Start Topic< Prev Topic | Next
Topic >< Prev Message | Next Message >Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat
Zalewski)

Sun Nov 2, 2008 1:13 pm
Hide Message Info

Pat said

Polls
Members
Pending
CalendarInviteManagement
Groups Labs (Beta)
Applications

Yahoo! Groups Tips
Did you know...
The only place formoderators, bymoderators. Go toModerator Central.

Best of Y! Groups
Check themout and#17865 of 18125

The latest version is that I was never initiated into the GD.
> > Now Jack put me straight into the 6=5 because I had
an existing> > temple.....
No Pat was never initiated into the GD. Technically this
6=5 ritual he claims was never a GD ritual. It was a Felkininvention based on something to do with Steiner andanthroposophy and not GD at all. Further it was a Stella
Matutina grade which was not Golden Dawn, clearly the
GD only went up to Adeptus Minor.

Msg List <Prev | Next>
View Source
Use Fixed Width Font
Unwrap Lines

Gregory Bohein<gbohein@yahoo.de>gbohein
OfflineSend Email
Remove Author | Ban Author

To clarify my last example, Pat told me point blank hewanted to invent his own sexual teachings and tell
everyone he got them from whare ra. We had a yelling
match over it and I said Pat you're making up teachings.
When I saw Chris Zalewski last she regretted working the
GD and said it was all a big mistake, adding that the life
they had lived was all a lie.
Pat knows who I am, my last name is not Bohein but likehim I had whare ra connections. The last argument we had
was that he wanted the 8=3 papers I had from whare ra
and he tried to claim some story that they were intended

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17865

Page 1 of 6

Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn : Message: Re: Sexuality and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

nominate yourgroup.

12/18/08 8:39 PM

and he tried to claim some story that they were intended
for him.
Best, Greg
Von: G.H. Frater L.E.S. <luxexseptentrionis@yahoo.com>
An: Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn@yahoogroups.com
Gesendet: Sonntag, den 2. November 2008, 21:58:29 Uhr
Betreff: [Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn] Re: Sexuality
and the Golden Dawn (Rebuttal to Pat Zalewski)

Pat Zalewski, "zalewski2003" <jabb9239@.. .> wrote:> What happened was that before I started I put myself
through all the> rituals up to 5-6.
Thank you for your honesty, Pat, in frankly admitting thatyou werenever initiated in any grade of the Outer Order, Portal, or
AdeptusMinor. Such honesty will go a long way in repairing thedamage to yourreputation caused by your having misled the public for somany years.
Again, I reiterate that I have nothing against a largely
self-initiated person like you, Pat, leading a Golden Dawnstyle order
or even selling a questionable correspondence course forthousands ofdollars like you and Martin are doing with your so-called,"Order of
the Golden Dawn" money scam.
I do draw a line, however, when you try to use yourauthor's ethos tomislead the public with pontificating, false statements
aboutessential Golden Dawn concepts, such as the role ofsexuality in the
traditional Golden Dawn, as in the post that started thispresent thread.
Sub Umbra Alarum Tuarum, Yeheshua
G.H. Frater Lux Ex Septentrionis
Imperator Ordinis, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
Chief Adept, R.R. et A.C.
Archon Basileus, Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega"Ex Deo Nascimur.
In Yeheshua Morimur.
Per Sanctum Spiritum Reviviscimus"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/17865

Page 2 of 6