Stenographic Transcript
Before the

COMMITTEE ON
ARMED SERVICES

UNITED STATES SENATEHEARING TO RECEIVE TESTIMONY ON THE DEPARTMENT OF
DEFENSE BUDGET POSTURE IN REVIEW OF THE DEFENSEAUTHORIZATION REQUEST FOR FISCAL YEAR 2023 AND THE
FUTURE YEARS DEFENSE PROGRAM
Thursday, April 7, 2022
Washington, D.C.

ALDERSON COURT REPORTING
1111 14TH STREET NWSUITE 1050
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005(202) 289-2260
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HEARING TO RECEIVE TESTIMONY ON THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

2BUDGET POSTURE IN REVIEW OF THE DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION

3REQUEST FOR FISCAL YEAR 2023 AND THE FUTURE YEARS DEFENSE

4PROGRAM

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Thursday, April 7, 2022

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U.S. Senate

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Committee on Armed Services

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Washington, D.C.

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The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m. in

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Room SD-G50, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jack Reed,

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chairman of the committee, presiding.

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Committee members present:

Senators Reed [presiding],

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Shaheen, Gillibrand, Blumenthal, Hirono, Kaine, King,

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Warren, Peters, Manchin, Rosen, Kelly, Inhofe, Wicker,

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Fischer, Cotton, Rounds, Ernst, Tillis, Sullivan, Cramer,

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Scott, Blackburn, Hawley, and Tuberville.

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OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JACK REED, U.S. SENATOR FROMRHODE ISLAND
Chairman Reed:

Good morning.

The committee meets5

today to receive testimony on the President's budget request

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for the Department of Defense for Fiscal Year 2023.

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Our witnesses this morning are Secretary of Defense

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Lloyd Austin, Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)

9Michael McCord, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

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General Mark Milley.

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today, and please extend the committee's thanks to the12

uniformed and civilian men and women of the Defense

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Department who selflessly serve the nation.

Thank you for appearing before us

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Last week, President Biden released his Defense

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Department budget request for Fiscal Year 2023 with a top

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areas, including prioritizing China as our key strategic

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competitor, addressing the acute threats posed by Russia and19other adversaries, and modernizing the Defense Department.

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Our national security challenges have never been more stark.

The request focuses on several key

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One month ago, Russia unleashed its illegal and22

unprovoked, and indeed, a barbaric attack on Ukraine,23

upending peace and stability in Europe.

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has inflicted horrific suffering upon innocent civilians in

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Ukraine, threatened European security, and caused serious

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Putin's invasion

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consequences for the global economy.

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The Ukrainian military has performed heroically in the3face of this overwhelming violence and the Ukrainian people4

have shown the world what true courage looks like.

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If Putin thought his actions would drive a wedge

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between NATO members and within the international community,

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he was badly mistaken.

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reinvigorated the NATO alliance and exposed the brittle

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nature of Putin's regime.

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the international community has implemented a severe and11

far-reaching series of economic and energy sanctions against

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Russia, increased military and humanitarian assistance to

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Ukraine, and reinforced NATO's military presence along the14eastern flank.

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way not seen in decades, and our potential adversaries

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around the world are taking note.

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The conflict in Ukraine has

Since the start of the conflict,

The international community has united in aWith that in mind, this budget request appropriately

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recognizes China and then Russia, as the key strategic

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competitors for our military.

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release of the budget, the Defense Department submitted to21

Congress classified versions of the National Defense

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Strategy, the national Nuclear Posture Review, and the23

Missile Defense Review.

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planning documents yet to be released, will serve as key

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guideposts for this committee as we take a clear-eyed

Concurrent with the

These, along with other strategic

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approach to what is necessary to succeed in our long-term

2strategic competition.

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An essential element of our strategy going forward is4

the need to build the joint capabilities of our armed forces5

across all domains, including space, cyber, and information

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operations, and I am interested to hear from our witnesses

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how this budget supports joint capabilities to ensure our

8military remains the world's premier fighting force.

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I am encouraged that this budget includes the largest-10

ever request for research, development, testing, and11

evaluation:

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increase over last year's enacted levels.

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includes significant funding for modernization areas such as

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microelectronics, artificial intelligence, hypersonics,

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and 5G; technologies which will be critical for our national

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defense.

a total of $130 billion, or a 9.5 percent
The budget

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Our strategy toward China and Russia should not be18

solely defined in dollars by "how much," but rather "where"

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and "why" to achieve the greatest comparative advantage.

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I am also pleased to see that this budget request places a21

priority on taking care of our men and women in uniform and22

the civilians who serve alongside them, by including an

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across-the-board pay raise for military and civilian

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personnel of 4.6 percent.

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by law for military personnel, too often Defense Department

While this pay raise is required

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civilians have been overlooked.

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pay sends an important message to the workforce.

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This increase in civilian

Keeping our strategic competition with China front and4center, this budget request includes $6.1 billion for5priorities covered by the Pacific Deterrence Initiative, or

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PDI.

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Department's PDI request, I am encouraged by the progress we8have made thus far and this committee will continue working

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to help improve the design and posture of the joint force in

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the Indo-Pacific region, including by improving logistics,

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modernizing infrastructure, conducting exercises and12

training, and building the capabilities of our allies and13

partners.

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Although we are awaiting the specific details of theThis budget request also includes $12.1 billion for

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military construction projects, and I am particularly

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pleased to see increases in the Energy Resilience

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Conservation Investment Program.

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facilities' sustainment, repair, and modernization will go a19long way toward the Joint Force's readiness.

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further supported by the budget request's initiatives to21

weapons platform propulsion efficiencies to save fuel.

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The improvements to ourThis effort isWith regard to our nuclear strategy, I understand that23

the budget request supports important steps for the24

modernization of our nuclear triad.

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statements by Putin over the past several months, including

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Given the reckless

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an out-of-cycle nuclear exercise before invading Ukraine,2

our allies and partners depend on our extended deterrence3

now more than ever.

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We must also be acutely aware of China's rapidly

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growing arsenal.

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needed to reassure not only our allies but deter any attack7

on our homeland by either of our near-peer, nuclear-armed

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competitors.

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to promote strategic stability, including follow-on talks

10beyond New START to cover all types of nuclear weapons and,11

if possible, reduce nuclear stockpiles when verifiable for12

all parties.

Modernization of our strategic forces is

But even as we modernize, we should seek ways

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Given these strategic threats, the proposed investment

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in tried-and-true platforms like the Columbia- and Virginia-

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class submarines is a prudent decision.

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budget supports the development of a new long-range stealth17

bomber, strengthening the fighter fleet, and building up the18

defense industrial base, including upgrades to the Navy's

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public and private shipyards.

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strategic competition in mind, however, it is also necessary

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to divest of platforms and capabilities that are either not

22necessary or inefficient for supporting our strategy.

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Belt-tightening in any department, particularly

Similarly, thisKeeping the nature of24

Defense, is always a challenge, but it is also an

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opportunity to evaluate what is necessary and what drives

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innovation.

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step in proposing $2.8 billion worth of divestments and3

retirements of platforms, and I will work with my colleagues

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to evaluate these proposals and make hard, but necessary,

5choices.

The Department has taken the first difficult

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Amidst a global pandemic, climate change, economic

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uncertainty, renewed Russian aggression in Europe, and8

disruptive technologies in the hands of competitors, we have9

to recognize the interconnected nature of the threats before

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us.

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resource and transform our tools of national power.

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that President Biden has issued his budget request, the13Committee can begin our work of crafting an NDAA that meets

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America's needs now and in the future.

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Congress must make thoughtful decisions about how we
Now

Again, I thank the witnesses for their participation

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today and I look forward to their testimonies.

17[The statement of Chairman Reed follows:]

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Chairman Reed:

Let me now recognize Ranking Member

Inhofe.

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STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES INHOFE, U.S. SENATOR FROMOKLAHOMA

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Senator Inhofe:Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank you,and I join in welcoming our witnesses.

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For 4 years, this committee has been using this 20186

document, the National Defense Strategy Commission and I

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don't recall ever having one document hanging around for so

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long.

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good job in putting us where we are now.

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The 12 who got involved with this to start with did a

Last week, we received the classified version of the11

Biden administration's new NDS; that is this.

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have seen so far, it appears that the new strategy document

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does a good job expanding our understanding of the scale and14

the scope of the threat from the Chinese Communist Party and15

its military modernization.

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From what I

There are some things that we will probably have17

disagreements about.

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continue to consider the new strategy.

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are, there may be some areas of the strategy that the20

administration is willing to take risks, and the Congress21

may or may not agree.

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We have done that in the past, but we
For example, there

But it is clear, and I really can't stress this enough,23

the Chinese threat is beyond anything that we have dealt

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with before in our lives.

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General Milley, last year, you told us that the Chinese

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and Russians, combined, spend more than we did on national

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defense.

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percent increase in their defense budget.

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thing; this is a big deal.

5This year, Beijing announced an additional 7.1
This is a scary

Mr. Secretary, I do appreciate that based on the new

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NDS, that you went to the White House to ask for more

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resources, and I appreciate that very much.

But even then,8

the budget just doesn't rise to the moment.

It doesn't

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deliver the real growth our military needs.

And it says it

10very clearly in this document, in the very beginning of the11

document, the 3 percent-to-5 percent range is where we need12

to be.

13from the bipartisan committee.

And that real growth is a recommendation that comes

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The budget also doesn't reckon with record-high15

inflation we are seeing today in the realm of 7 to 8

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percent.

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give our defense budget real growth in 2022, but the18

military will end up losing buying power due to inflation.

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This historic inflation is a new, I call it the "new20

sequestration."21

sequestration together.

And on the bipartisan basis, Congress tried to

We all remember when we went through22

And for me, this isn't just about how much money we23spend on defense; this is about how we spend that money.

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And we need a higher top line because what is0 in thisbudget right now is not nearly enough to make up for lost

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time.
This budget shrinks both, our naval fleet and our Air

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Force aircraft fleet.

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strength has been very disturbing to all of us and I am glad5

to see the investments in research and development.

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good things are out there working and we are all doing it

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together.

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It cuts end-strength.

The end-

So some

And the reason I took so long in this opening is that9

this is the first budget hearing of the season.

10people don't realize that this goes on 12 months a year, and11

that is what this is all about.

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good job.

You know,

And we are going to do a13

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Chairman Reed:

Well, thank you very much, Senator

Inhofe.
And thank you, Mr. Secretary, the Chairman, andSecretary McCord.
We have been informed that there is a vote that willcommence at 10:00 a.m.

There will be three votes in order.

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So, we will be slipping out, ones and twos, but we will8

continue the hearing throughout the morning and then we will9

go into the classified section at the conclusion of this10

open session.

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With that, let me address a question to Secretary
McCord.

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I am trying to anticipate the votes, so I jumped ahead.

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Secretary Austin, let me recognize you for your opening

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statement.
[Laughter.]

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STATEMENT OF HONORABLE LLOYD AUSTIN III, SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE

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Secretary Austin:

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Good morning.

Well, thank you, Chairman.

Chairman Reed, Ranking Member Inhofe,

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distinguished members of the committee, thanks for the

6opportunity to testify today in support of the President's

7budget request for fiscal year 2023.

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It is great to be here with General Milley, who has

9been an outstanding partner.

10joined today by our comptroller and chief financial officer,

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Mike McCord.

And I am also glad to be

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Mr. Chairman, we are still focused on three key

13priorities at the Department of Defense and they include

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defending our nation, taking care of our people, and15

succeeding through teamwork.

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have submitted to you helps us meet each one of those17

priorities.

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And the budget request that we

Our budget seeks more than $56 billion for air power

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platforms and systems and more than $40 billion to maintain20

our dominance at sea, including buying nine more battle

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force ships and almost $13 billion to support and modernize

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our combat-credible forces on land.

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funds the modernization of all three legs of the nuclear

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triad do ensure that we maintain the safe, secure, and25

effective strategic deterrent.

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Our budget request also

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Of course none of these capabilities matter without our2people and their families.

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for a 4.6 percent pay raise for our military and civilian

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personnel and other special pay and benefits.

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to invest in outstanding and affordable childcare and the6construction of on-base child-development centers and7

ensuring that all our families can always put good and8healthy food on the table.

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So, we are seeking your support

We also plan

We are also deeply focused on the terrible problem of10

suicide in the U.S. military.

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mental health is health, period.

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access to mental health care, expanding telehealth13

capacities, and fighting the tired, old stigmas against

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seeking help.

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the establishment of an independent review committee to help

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us grapple with suicide, to better understand it, to prevent

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it, and treat the unseen wounds that lead to it.

And I will keep on saying it:
So, we are increasing

And with your support, I have just ordered18

At the same time, we are still working hard to19

implement the recommendations of the Independent Review

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Commission on Sexual Assault, because we know that we have a

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long way to go to rid ourselves of this scourge.

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seeks nearly $480 million for that enterprise.

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assault is not just a crime; it is an affront to our values

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and to everything that we are supposed to represent to each25

other and to this country.

Our budget
SexualAnd this is a leadership issue

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and you have my personal commitment to keep leading.

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Now, while I am on the topic of leadership, let me3

briefly address our military's role in the world, because,4

as I have said, we succeed through teamwork.

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witnessed myself in the last several weeks, countries around6

the world continue to look to the United States to provide

7that sort of leadership.

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been able to rush security assistance to Ukraine to help the9

Ukrainian people defend their lives and their country and10

their freedom.

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And as I haveWith help from Congress, we have

Last October, I visited Kyiv to meet both, my Ukrainian

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counterpart and President Zelenskyy.

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deepening defense partnership and our unwavering support for

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Ukrainian sovereignty in the face of Russian aggression.

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And we discussed our

Even before Russia's unprovoked and illegal invasion,16

we provided Ukraine with a billion dollars' worth of weapons

17and gear through presidential drawdown authority.

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are delivering on another billion dollars pledged by

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President Biden.

Now, we20

And our budget includes $650 million more for security

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assistance in Europe, including $300 million for the Ukraine

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Security Assistance Initiative.

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ago, the President authorized an additional $100 million to24

send more Javelin anti-armor systems, weapons that will25

provide critical support to the Ukrainians as they continue

And just a couple of days

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to resist Russian offenses in the east and in the south of2

the country.

3of material provided by other nations, which continues to4

flow in every day.

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leadership toward our shared goal of helping Ukraine defend

6itself.

We are also helping to coordinate the delivery

And let me thank you for your strong

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Since the invasion, I have spoken and met frequently

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with Minister Reznikov, my counterpart, including on Monday,

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and I have assured him that we will continue this effort and10

we will get him and his troops the tools and the inventory

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that they need most and that they are using most effectively

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against Russian forces.

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We have also reinforced our NATO allies.

We sped14

additional combat power to the alliance's eastern flank,15

raising our posture in Europe to more than 100,000 troops.

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These reinforcements include dozens of aircraft, an aircraft

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carrier strike group, two brigade combat teams.

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As President Biden made clear, we will defend every

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inch of NATO territory, if required, and we are making good20

on that promise.

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Mr. Chairman, as you have heard me say many times, we

22need resources to matched to strategy and strategy matched23

to policy and policy matched to the will of the American

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people.

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to deliver on that promise, as well.

And this budget gives us the resources that we need

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It reflects our

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recently submitted National Defense Strategy, which2highlights the pacing challenge of China.

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we are investing some $6 billion of this budget in the4

Pacific Deterrence Initiative.

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our posture in the Indo-Pacific toward a more distributed

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footprint.

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And that is why

It is why we are realigning

We are going to enhance our force posture,8

infrastructure, presence, and readiness in the Indo-Pacific.

9This includes the missile defense of Guam.

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we are making broad investments in such key areas as

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undersea dominance, fighter aircraft modernization, and12advanced weaponry, including Hypersonic Strike.

And that is why

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And many of these investments will pay dividends in

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countering the acute threat of Russia, as well, which our15strategy underscores.

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for threats that don't observe borders, from pandemics to17climate change, and we must tackle the persistent threats18

posed by North Korea, Iran, and global terrorist groups.

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At the same time, we must be prepared

Now, the National Defense Strategy advances our goals

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in three main ways:

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campaigning, and building enduring advantages.

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integrated deterrence means combining our strengths across23

all warfighting domains to maximum effect to ward off

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potential conflict.

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gain and sustain military advantage and to counter acuteforging integrated deterrence,An

Campaigning means day-to-day efforts to

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forms of coercion by our competitors and to complicate their2preparation for aggression.

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advantages, we need to accelerate force development,

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acquiring the technology that our warfighters need.

And to build enduring

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And so, our budget seeks more than $130 billion, as you

6point out, Mr. Chairman, for research, development, testing,7

and evaluation.

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Department has ever made.

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increase over last year, which was the Department's previous

10high-watermark.

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And that is the largest R&D request this
It is nearly a 10 percent

This includes $2 billion for artificial intelligence,

12$250 million for 5G, nearly $28 billion for space

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capabilities, and another $11 billion to protect our

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networks and develop a cyber mission force.

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maintains our edge, but it does not take that edge for

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granted and, quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, in the twenty-

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first century, you either innovate or you get left behind.

18This budget

And through the President's budget and with the help of

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this committee, we will continue to innovate.

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help, we will continue to defend this nation, take care of21

our people, and support our allies and partners.

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your help, I know we will continue to lead.

And with yourAnd with

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Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

24[The statement of Secretary Austin follows:]

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Chairman Reed:

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General Milley, please?

Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

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STATEMENT OF GENERAL MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN OF THE

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JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

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General Milley:

Chairman Reed, and Ranking Member

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Inhofe, and members of the committee, I am privileged to5

represent the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, and6

guardians of the United States Joint Force.

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Our troops are the best led, best equipped, best8

trained, most lethal, and most capable military force in the9

world.

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approximately 400,000 American troops are currently standing

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watch in 155 locations around the world, conducting

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operations every day to keep Americans safe.

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Alongside our allies and partners at any given time,

Currently, we are supporting our European allies and

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guarding Europe's eastern flank in the face of an

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unnecessary war of aggression by Russia against the people

16of Ukraine and the assault on democratic institutions and17

rules-based international order that have prevented the18

great power war for the last 78 years, since the end of

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World War II.

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We are now facing two global powers:

China and Russia,

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each with significant military capabilities, both of whom

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intend to fundamentally change the current rules-based

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global order.

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unstable and the potential for significant international

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conflict between great powers is increasing, not decreasing.

We are entering a world that is becoming more

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The United States military comprises one of the four2

key components of America's national power:

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economic, informational, and military, to protect the4homeland and sustain a stable and open international system.

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In coordination with the other elements of power, we

diplomatic,

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constantly develop a wide range of military options for the7

President, as Commander-in-Chief, and for this Congress to8

consider.

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As the U.S. military, we are prepared to deter and, if

10necessary, fight and win against anyone who seeks to attack11

the United States, our allies, or our significant, vital

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national security interests.

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The Joint Force appreciates the work that our elected

14

representatives do to ensure that we have the resources15

needed to train, equip, and manage the force in order to be

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ready.

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year's level of funding and we look forward to your support

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for this year's budget.

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We thank this Congress for increasing last fiscal

The Joint Force will deliver modernization and redlines

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for Armed Forces and security to the people of the United

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States at the fiscal year 2023 budget request of $773

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billion.

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modernization, and the transformation of the Joint Force in24order to set and meet the conditions of the operating

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the so-called changing character of war that we have2

discussed many times in the past.

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to ensure the resources of the American people entrust to us

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are spent prudently and in the best interests of the nation.

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In alignment with the forthcoming National Defense

We will work diligently

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Strategy, the classified document is out.

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military strategy, this budget delivers a ready, agile, and8capable Joint Force that will defend the nation, while

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taking care of our people and working with our partners and10

allies.

In the national

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We are currently witness to the greatest threat to the12peace and security of Europe and, perhaps, the world, in my13

42 years of service in uniform.

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Ukraine is threatening to undermine not only European peace15

and stability, but global peace and stability that my16

parents and generations of Americans fought so hard to17

defend.

The Russian invasion of18

The islands of the Pacific and the beaches of Normandy

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bore witness to the incredible tragedy that befalls humanity

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when nations seek power through military aggression across

21

sovereign borders.

22

institutions of freedom, it is heartening to see the world

23

rally and say, never again, to the specter of war in Europe.

Despite this horrific assault on the24Your military stands ready to do whatever it is25

directed in order to maintain peace and stability on the

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European continent, a peace that ensures global stability

2and international order where all nations can prosper in3peace.

4capabilities anywhere else on the globe, as well as our

5priority effort in the Asia-Pacific region, measured against

6

our pacing challenge of the People's Republic of China.

7

in defense of our nation, we must maintain competitive8

overmatch in all the domains of war:

9sea, and air.

10

We are also prepared and need to sustain ourAndspace, cyber, land,

The United States is at a very critical and historic

11

geostrategic inflection point.

12

eyed strategy of maintaining peace to the unambiguous

13

capability of strengthen relative to China or Russia.

14

requires that we simultaneously maintain readiness and15

modernize for the future.

16

risking the security of future generations and I believe

17

that this budget is a major step in the right direction.

We need to pursue a clear-This

If we do not do that, then we are18

I look forward to your questions.

19[The statement of General Milley follows:]

20
21
22
23
24
25

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2

Chairman Reed:

Well, thank you very much, General, andMr. Secretary.

3

I would like to address my first question to Secretary

4

McCord, and that is, one of the concerns everyone has right5

now is the impact of inflation on the budget.

6

Can you explain how the Department calculates inflation

7and how it was taken into account in this budget request,

8

both in terms of personnel and in major contracts.

9Mr. McCord:10

We paid just as much attention to this as we did to theYes, Chairman.

11

program content that we are going to spend most of the12hearing discussing.

13

year, we jumped on it at the same time we were doing our

14

program review.

15

at the time, up to the time we had to finish, which is

16basically the end of last calendar year, built that into our17budget.

So, when we saw prices changing last

We took all the information available to us

18

What did that mean?

19

The GDP deflator, which is what we use at DOD, not the

20

CPI, the CPI does not reflect what we buy, so we weren't

21chasing 7 percent, but we were chasing an increase up to 4

22

percent vice two.

23

buy from contractors and then we also, the pay rates, which24

you described, the 4.6 pay raise, we took the increase in25

wages into account.

We built that into the pricing of what we

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The result of both of those things, we added $20

2billion a year to our program from 2023 through 2027.

3

Working with the White House, the Secretary made both points

4

to the President both, on the content of the program and on

5

the cost of the program.

6

billion of programming content that we added, we added $20

7billion a year to catch up on this pricing increase that we8

saw last year.

9

On top of the twenty to $30

Then comes the tricky part, Mr. Chairman, is the world10

keeps changing.

11of Ukraine spiked, rattled the markets, spiked energy

12

prices.

13

the world keeps evolving.

14

U.S. economy, are very complex and hard to predict what is15

going to happen next.

16

After we finished the budget, the invasion

You know, we do not have that in our budget.

So,

The global economy, let alone theSo, what we saw happen last year is not what we see

17happening today and may not be what we see happening

18

tomorrow.

19

finished, we caught up so that we would not start behind on20

our pricing.

21

But with all the information we had when we

The last point I would want to make, I want to22

acknowledge that we have a letter from Ranking Member Inhofe

23

and Ranking Member Rogers with a detailed set of questions.

24

That would be another opportunity for us to explain

25

this in more detail going forward.

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Chairman Reed:

2

Secretary Austin, could you highlight for us some of3

the key capabilities that are included in this budget that4will implement the National Defense Strategy that you just5

proposed and the President has proposed.

Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

6

Secretary Austin:

7

You know, one of the tenets of this strategy is, as you

Well, thank you, Chairman.

8

heard me say earlier, is this concept of integrated

9

deterrence and the principle here is that we maximize the10capability, capacity resident in every warfighting domain:11

air, land, space, sea, cyber, and that we are able to12

network those capabilities in new and different ways.

13

So, you can see from this budget that we are investing14

in space in a significant way, $27 billion.

15

another $11 billion.

16

billion.

Cyberspace is

Missile defeat and defense, $24

Long-range fire is another $7 billion.

17

And so, a significant investment in the types of18

capabilities that we know we will need to be relevant, not19

only relevant, but dominant in future conflict.

20

Chairman Reed:21

I indicated in my statement the difficult choices you

22

had to make with respect to retiring platforms, et cetera,

23

which I presume, and I will ask you, is essential to being

24

able to, first, have the efficiency to continue to operate,

25

have the innovation to anticipate problems going forward.

Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

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Might you and General Milley talk about the needs for this2

disinvestment.

3

Secretary Austin:

4

As you know, it becomes very difficult and costly to

Absolutely, Mr. Chairman.

5

try to maintain platforms that will not be relevant and6effective in a fight with a peer competitor, and so because

7

these platforms, in many cases, are very difficult to8continue to maintain, we need to choose to off-ramp those9capabilities and invest in capabilities that we know that10

will provide us what we need in a future fight.

11

Chairman Reed:

12

General Milley, please?

13

General Milley:

14

The divestment to invest strategy that retires a15

variety of platforms, mostly Navy and Air Force that are

16

quite expensive, and the cost-benefit analysis to sustain

17

them over time doesn't add up, number one.

18

is the technologies in those systems, many of those systems

19

that we are divesting are old, so we are trying to modernize

20

the force for the future operating environment, 2030 and

21

beyond, and that is where the investments are in this22budget.

Thank you.

Thank you, Senator.

And number two

23

Chairman Reed:24

And I think looking at not just the fighting in

25

Ukraine, but also the fighting recently in Azerbaijan or

And I appreciate that.

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Armenia, the impact of drones, for example, vis-a-vis,

2

tanks, they symbolize, I think, in a way, the future, where3large systems which we assumed in the past were difficult to4

defeat have been handled quite adroitly by the Ukrainians.

5So, with that, let me recognize Senator Inhofe?

6

Senator Inhofe:

7

Mr. McCord, the chairman asked a question and led off

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8

with, which I was going to do, but currently now, the9question would be in 2022, do you want to expand a little

10

bit on that year.

11

Mr. McCord:

12

On inflation in 2022, the GDP deflator, which is what13

the Department has always used, was the budget that you got

14

last year at this time was built on 2 percent.

15

the year ended at 4 and that is what we caught up on, so

16that that pricing going forward, building it into our17

program going forward would not be behind.

18

Yes, Senator.

We now saw

The tricky part from now is assessing what is going to19happen in 2023 going forward, given how hard it is to20

predict these things and whether oil-price spikes are going21

to persist or not persist, things like that.

22
23

Senator Inhofe:

Uh-huh.

Which I think they will bepersisting.

24

Secretary Austin, there are some who say that we

25

shouldn't be talking about the top line; we should be

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talking about how the budget aligns with the strategy.

2

I think we need to talk about both, but we only have a3classified defense strategy and we have no National Security

4Strategy.

5AndSo, how are we supposed to connect the dots between the6strategy and the budget?

7

White House to release the National Security Strategy to

8that we could have a debate in public about the strategy?

9

Secretary Austin:

10

Is there any timeline for the

Well, if you, Senator.

I can't offer you a timeline on when that is going to

11

be released.

12

National Defense Strategy, we used the guidance that was

13

available in the very detailed national security -- security

14

strategy guidance that was published very early on in this15

administration.

16

to map out the strategy that you now see.

17

I would only say that as we construct the

And that was very helpful to us to allow us

And if you look at that strategy and you look at the18budget, you will see direct linkages between the budget and19

the strategy, because we used the strategy to fabricate the20budget.

21

Senator Inhofe:

22

General Milley, I am going to ask you one question, andThat is good.

Thank you very much.

23

I already know the answer, because I know you, and I think24

it needs to be stated in this hearing.

25

on this Congresswoman Turner's question from the task

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2

hearing earlier this week.
You said your position on the sub-launch nuclear3

missile hadn't changed.

4Richard and General Walter your best military advice is to5

continue development of this missile for deterrence

6

purposes.

I just wanted to confirm, Admiral

7

General Milley:8

My position didn't change and I think that it is

9

important to have as many options as possible for this10

President or any other President.

That is correct, Senator.

11

But I do want to state, also, that we have lots of

12

options and we have a significant nuclear capability, so I

13

don't want any foreign adversary to misread what I am

14

saying.

15

every President needs lots of options, which we have, but I

16

think more options are better.

I just happened to believe that this President and17

Senator Inhofe:

Okay.

18

Chairman Reed:

Thank you, Senator Inhofe.

19

Senator Shaheen, please?

20

Senator Shaheen:

21

And thank you, Secretary Austin, Chairman Milley, and22

Under Secretary McCord for being here this morning and for23

your service.

24
25

Great.

Thank you.

Secretary Austin, the Senate NATO Observer Group, which
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President Biden.

2

letter was in view of what is happening in Ukraine, whether

3

we should have a more strategic and comprehensive approach4

toward the Black Sea region, which, as we are watching

5

Russia is freely using to attack Ukraine and has the

6potential to shut off that region.

7

And one of the things we raised in the

As we think about our future strategy, how are we

8factoring in efforts to address what is happening in the

9Black Sea region, particularly?

10

Secretary Austin:

11

This unlawful and unprovoked aggression by Putin has

Well, thank you, Senator.

12

had the effect of changing the security architecture in the13

region for some time to come.

14

doing is taking a look at what has changed and what NATO15

will need to do to make sure that we continue to do what is

16

necessary in protecting our NATO countries, defending our

17NATO countries.

18

And so, what NATO is now

That work has just commenced.

It is ongoing.

I expect19that we will have a robust discussion as we go to the summit

20

in June, but, again, it is ongoing work.

21
22
23

We recognize, however, that change has occurred andthat change needs to be accounted for.
Senator Shaheen:

Well, again, the Black Sea region is24

a particular vulnerability right now, given what is25

happening.

And are we working with our allies in the region

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on what that strategy should look like?

2

Secretary Austin:

3

And well prior to this, we were working with the4

countries in the region on, in terms of their capability and5capacity and what needed to do to evolve that.

6

all be a part of the ongoing discussion, but, clearly, they7

will have a voice in that discussion.

8

Senator Shaheen:

Absolutely, Senator.

That will

And as we look, as you pointed out,9

the architecture of Europe is going to be different because

10of this war, and it appears that we are, right now, looking

11

at a much more robust presence in Europe.

12

How do we think that is going to affect our long-term

13

military posture in Europe?

14

General Milley:

I wouldn't care to speculate at this15

point, Senator.

16

posture, we are going to look at capability in all five17

warfighting domains and we are going to look at capability

18

across NATO.

I would say that as we look at that19

We do expect that it will change our footprint.

20

terms of how much it changes the U.S. contribution, that is

21

left to be seen, and whether or not it includes permanent

22

stake, permanent basing forward or, you know, additional

23

rotational forces in and out of the eastern flank, or a24

combination of both.

25

worked out.

In

These are things that have to be

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Again, we will work with NATO on this and to your2

point, it, no doubt, will be different going forward.

3
4

Senator Shaheen:

Chairman Milley, would you like to

speculate?

5

General Milley:

6

We are developing options for the Secretary and7

President to consider on the future force posture in Europe

8

to achieve the two fundamental purposes, which is to assure

9

our allies and deter any adversaries, specifically, Russia.

10

But right now, those are under development.

11

I won't speculate, Senator.

Senator Shaheen:

Well, I was pleased to see that the

12

President's budget included $4.2 billion for the European

13

Deterrence Initiative, but in view of what is happening in

14

Ukraine, do we not think we are going to have to increase

15

that request?

16

You don't know if that is for Under Secretary McCord or17

for you, Mr. Secretary.

18

Secretary Austin:Well, certainly, that is something

19

that we will look at, but let me take this opportunity to20thank you for what you did in the past to provide us with

21

that.

22

theater.

23

into Europe, fall in on pre-positioned equipment, and we are24

ready to go in a very short period of time.

25

That enabled to us very rapidly flow forces into
You saw us flow a brigade combat team from Georgia

That, in addition to a number of other things that you

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helped us with, created some great capability.

2

point, I think we will need more of that going forward.

3

Exactly how much, unknown.

4

Senator Shaheen:

5

I am almost out of time, but I do want to raise an

6issue around PFAS because the 2022 NDAA and the omnibus

7budget bill contained funding for PFAS testing and8

remediation at DOD installations.

9

have constituents who are affected by what has happened with

10

PFAS exposure at military installations, it is nice to be

11

able to say help is on the way.

But to yourThank you.

And for those of us who

12

So, are you committed to ensuring that all of the13

initiatives that are funded as part of both of those bills

14

get out on time and as quickly as possible?

15

Secretary Austin:

I am absolutely committed, Senator.

16

Senator Shaheen:

Thank you.

17

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

18

Chairman Reed:

19

Senator Wicker, please?

20

Senator Wicker:

21

In your opening statement, Mr. Chairman, you talked

Thank you, Senator Shaheen.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

22

about the acute threat we are facing.

23

challenges as being stark.

24
25

You termed theIn the statement by General Milley, he said the danger
is increasing, not decreasing.

Certainly, Senator Shaheen

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is correct about a more robust presence in Europe and of2

course that is going to require more funds from the3

Congress, the branch of our government that has the power of4

the purse.

5

I don't see how we can view the current climate as

6

being one in which budget tightening is appropriate.

7

would just challenge my colleagues on this committee and in8

the House and Senate to assert our authority as the9appropriators and as the branch of government charged with

10

providing enough funds to provide for the common defense

11

under the Constitution.

12

So, I

Now, Secretary Austin, let me talk about amphibious

13

ships.

14that you would fund the Commandant's need for amphibious

15

ships to conduct Marine Corps missions.

16

Department's fiscal year 2023 budget; it calls for full17

funding of LPD 32 and funds LHA 9.

18

working with Senator Kaine and me on that.

19

To your credit, you assured Senator Kaine and me

You did this in theSo, thank you forHowever, I have significant concerns for the future of20

amphibious ships.

21

delivered the Navy's 30-year shipbuilding plan for Congress.

22

When are we going to get that?

The Department of Defense has not

23

Further, the Department of Defense has not delivered

24

its amphibious ship study to Congress; again, when will we25

get that?

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Yet, even without these two documents, the Department2

is proposing to end the LPD amphibious ship construction

3line after LPD 32.

4

Marine Corps has been clear:

5amphibs.

6

Now, by contrast, the Commandant of the

The math is simple.

he needs a minimum of 31

If you end the LPD line after LPD

732, you cannot reach the 31 traditional amphibious ships.

8

The Marine Corps even included funding for an entire LPD 33

9

as its number one, unfunded priority in fiscal year 2023.

10

So, Secretary Austin, why did you not include funding

11

for LPD 33 in the fiscal year 2023 budget?

12

propose filling the operational gap that this is going to13cause?

14that the Marine Corps chose LPD 33 as its top choice for

15

additional funding?

How do you

And do you think we should take note of the fact

16

Secretary Austin:17

And let me also thank you for what you have done to18

continue to support us and continue to support our Navy and19

our Marine Corps.

20

Well, thanks, Senator.

As you pointed out, there is $2.8 billion in the 2023

21

budget focused on amphibs.

22

today.

23

is $5 billion allocated to amphibs across the FITA.

Amphibs are important to us

That will be important to us going forward.

There

24

As you know, based upon the Commandant's vision of the25

future Corps, we will track along with what the Commandant's

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needs are, we will continue to work with him.

2

investing in an amphibious warfare ship, which is a lighter

3

version of an amphib, and we will make those investments.

4

We are also

But we will continue to work with the Commandant going5

forward and those two reports that you mentioned earlier,6

the shipbuilding plan and also the amphib study, those are7forthcoming in the next several weeks.

8910Senator Wicker:

In the next several weeks.

Well, verygood.
Let me ask you this, Secretary Austin, with regard to11

Ukraine.

12

Government to deter Putin, but as General Milley describes,

13

it is very difficult to do so unless you put forces on the

14

ground.

You said on Tuesday it is the objective of the

15

In the Omni, Congress provided you with $3 billion in

16

authority to further arm the Ukrainians, yet we have only

17

used $900 million of this, less than a third of the amount18

authorized.

19

flank NATO partners.

20

This could also be used to backfill the eastern

Why hasn't the administration provided the full $3

21billion?

22

Is it not available yet?

23

the Pentagon and how do we fix these problems to get our24

friends in Ukraine, the commitment, the weaponry they need25

to defeat the Russians?

Does the administration not want to send it yet?
Are there throughput problems at

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Secretary Austin:Well, we communicate with the2

Ukrainian leadership routinely.

3

just talked to Minister Reznikov on Monday.

4

him again this afternoon.

5

with his counterpart, as well.

6

their needs and those needs are identified in those frequent

7

engagements.

8

As I indicated, Senator, I
I will talk to

The chairman is in close contact
We base what we are doing on

We are flowing resources into Ukraine faster than most9

people would have ever believed conceivable.

10time, in some cases, from a time that authorization is

11

provided, you know, 4 or 5 days later, we see real

12

capability begin to show up.

13
14
15
16
17

Senator Wicker:

Now, from a

You are not suggesting they arereceiving everything that they are asking for?
Secretary Austin:

If I said that, I certainly didn't

mean to say that.
What I meant to say, Senator, was we are providing them18

with those capabilities that are relevant and effective in

19this fight.

20

amount of anti-armor, anti-aircraft capability and also

21

communications capabilities, as well as UAVs.

22

also looking to help them in a number of other ways.

23
24
25

And you have seen us do, provide a tremendous

And we are

But we are providing those capabilities that have
proven to be absolutely effective in this fight.
Senator Shaheen:[Presiding.]

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Wicker.

2

Senator Gillibrand?

3

Senator Gillibrand:

4

General Milley and Secretary Austin, I just want to5commend the fine work you are doing in Ukraine, with regard

6

to being supportive of the Ukrainian people's will to fight7

and will to win.

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.

8

I went with a delegation with Senator Ernst just a few

9weeks ago and we were able to meet with the 82nd Airborne,

10

as well as our troops in Poland, as well as troops that are

11

doing exercises in Germany.

12

inspiring and something I think that you should be very

13

proud of.

14

And I can say it was extremely

Do you believe our current strategy is sufficient for

15

Ukraine to win the war against Russia and if not, what

16

shifts in strategy would you suggest, and second, we talked

17

about how this conflict could ultimately be resolved and I

18

want to know if you are engaging with any Russian

19

counterparts or whether any NATO allies are doing so?

20

Secretary Austin:

In terms of whether or not we are21

engaging with Russian counterparts, both the Chairman and22

myself have frequently reached out to our counterparts in

23

Russia to try to ensure that we maintain a dialogue; that

24

is, in the last, since mid-February, that has not been very,25

we have not been very successful because the Russians have

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not responded.

2

In terms of whether or not, you know, this is the right3

approach, you know, our goal, our objective has been to make4

sure that we help Ukraine defend itself, protect its

5sovereign territory.

6

doing that, because they have the will, the determination to7

defend their sovereign territory; that has been really,8

really impressive.

And they have done a credible job of

9

But you also need the equipment, as well, to do that.

10

And so, we provided them those anti-armor and anti-aircraft

11

weapons and also the UAVs that they have been really12

somewhat decisive, for lack of a better term, in a number of

13

these fights.

14

Putin thought that he could very rapidly take over the15

country of Ukraine, very rapidly capture the capital city,

16

but he was wrong.

17

made a number of bad assumptions, but also, in part, because

18of the stiffness of resistance that he encountered.

19

And he was wrong, in part, because heI think, you know, Putin has given up on his efforts to20

capture the capital city.

21

and East of the country and our goal is to make sure that we

22give the Ukrainians everything that they need, that we can23possibly get to them, as fast as we can get it to them, and24

we are pushing it very, very quickly, so that they can be

25

successful in that fight, as well.

He is now focused on the SouthAnd that will be our

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1

focus going forward.

2

Senator Gillibrand:

3

General Milley:

4

General Milley?

Yeah, Senator, I would say that, youknow, what does winning look like?

5

I think winning is Ukraine remains a free and6

independent nation that it has been since 1991, with their7

territorial integrity intact.

8

difficult; it is going to be a long slog.

9easy fight that they are involved in.

10

That is going to be very
This is not an

The first part of it has probably and successfully been

11

waged here in the last 6 weeks.

12

the Russian onslaught on to Kyiv, but there is a significant

13

battle yet ahead down in the Southeast, down around the14

Donbas-Donetsk region, where the Russians intend to amass

15

forces and continue their assault.

16

They have managed to defeat

So, I think it is an open question right now, how this

17

ends.

18

aggression, and there is some sort of diplomatic

19

intervention, but right now, that doesn't look like it is on

20

the horizon, the immediate horizon.

21

Ideally, Putin decides to ceasefire, stop his

Senator Gillibrand:

And do you believe we need any

22

shifts in strategy or are you, do you believe that the23

current course is the best course?

24

concerns about escalation that you need to mitigate?

25

Secretary Austin:

And are there any

Yes, I do think the current strategy

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is the right strategy, which is, number one, do not engage

2

in armed conflict with Russia; United States forces don't

3

engage in armed conflict with Russia.

4

continue to support the Ukrainian people and their5

government with sufficient weapons and arms, et cetera, so

6

that they can help defend themselves.

7

the cohesion of NATO, because NATO is a very powerful8organization in its both, the military and political

9

alliance in many ways, and it definitely acts as a10

deterrence.

11

And second is to

Third is to maintainSo, those are the three main objectives the President

12

has laid out for us as the uniform military and we will13

continue to execute those and I think that is the right14

track.

15

Senator Gillibrand:16

I have expired my time, but I want a question for theThank you.

17

record.

18

have rapidly advanced their cyber and information warfare

19

capabilities and Russia's ongoing cyberattacks against

20

Ukraine are an indication of how this dimension of warfare

21

is bound to become more complex.

22

Secretary Austin, the People's Republic of China

What are some broad strategies and approaches that we

23

should be considering to recruit more civilians and24

uniformed personnel to improve our cyber readiness?

25

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1
2
3

answer for the record; it is your choice.
Secretary Austin:record, Senator.

I will take the question for theThank you.

4

Senator Gillibrand:

5[The information follows:]

6[COMMITTEE INSERT]

Thank you very much.

7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1
2

Chairman Reed:[Presiding.]

Thank you, Senator

Gillibrand.

3

Senator Fischer, please?

4

Senator Fischer:5

I want to begin by noting my frustration with theThank you, Mr. Chairman.

6

timing of this hearing.

7

Department's budget, but we have no detailed budget

8

justification data.

9

will be released mid-April.

10

We are here today to review theMy understanding is that the J book

We can't talk about any strategy, either.

The

11

administration's National Defense Strategy, the Nuclear

12

Posture Review, and the Missile Defense Review, were13

submitted to Congress last week, but all of those documents

14

are classified.

15

committee delayed the Secretary's testimony so that there16

was ample time to review the budget and have a meaningful

17

oversight hearing and I am disappointed that that is not the

18

case.

19

Last year and in 2017 and 2018, thisWith respect to the NDS and the NPR, I would note that20

the previous administration released these documents

21

publicly in early 2018 and the committee had almost 3 months

22

to review them before Secretary Mattis and General Dunford

23

appeared to testify.

24
25

Secretary Austin, in your opening comments, you said
that in this budget, resources are matched to strategy,

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matched to policy, matched to the will of the people.

2

I think having this hearing without any detailed3

information about the budget and when we are unable to4

openly discuss any of the administration's strategy

5

documents directly undermines the Committee's ability to

6conduct its oversight work and it is contrary to the spirit

7of transparent government that these public hearings are8

intended to support.

9

I will be deferring most of my questions to the10classified portion, but I do have a few that we were able to11

glean from the top lines that we were given.

12

Secretary Austin, in Section 1684 of the 2017 NDAA, it

13

was directed that the Department would designate an

14

acquisition authority to be responsible for defense of the15homeland from cruise missile threats, but the Department has

16

still not made such a designation.

17

What is the status of this and does the Department

18

intend to make a designation and when or can we expect that19

to happen in the near future?

20

Secretary Austin:

21

We do intend to make a designation and we will, again,

22

Well, thanks, Senator.

we will move out smartly on that.

23

In terms of being transparent and when the budget,

24

detailed budget is released, I would like to ask, invite Mr.

25

McCord to make a couple of comments there.

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goal, it is our desire, it is our mandate to be as

2transparent with you as possible and we will do that.

3

Senator Fischer:

I would like to continue with my4questions, since I will run out of time here, but I would

5

point out that one of my missions, and I have talked to you

6about it, I have talked to all of the service chiefs to the7

Joint Chiefs, to be able to declassify much of the material

8that we see as members of Congress.

9

ways to do that, and we have to be able to do that so that10

the people of this country understand the threats that we

11

face.

12

that for themselves, they will support our national defense.

13

And I think there are

So that when they have the information and can review

They will support our national security.

And I feel

14

that we have gone backwards here in making these classified

15

documents and not being transparent.

16

But if I could continue, given the increasing cruise

17

missile threat to the United States, again, I think it is18

important that we make this designation.

19

NDAA and that was a long time ago, so I hope that you will

20

step up and do this.

It was in the 201721

Also, Secretary Austin, under this budget, the Air

22

Force is divesting 369 aircraft this year and buying 87,

23

which is a net loss of 282.

24

467 aircraft and divesting 1,468, a loss of 1,001.

25

Navy's battle force shrinks as well, under this budget,

The 5-year plan projects buying

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dropping from 298 ships today, to 280 in fiscal year 2027.

2

You know, I am open to the concept of divesting of3

legacy platforms, but I think that is dangerous and a4

dangerous way to put stress on the force that we have.

5

So, how are we planning to deal with that dilemma and6

are we expecting operational demands to fall, you know, how

7realistic is that?

8

Secretary Austin:

9First, let me just highlight that there -- affirm that10

there will be an unclassified version of the strategy that

11

comes out a bit later.

12

Well, thanks, Senator.

Again, in terms of a divestment and investment, we are13

investing in those capabilities that will enable us to be

14

decisive in the future fight.

15

are not survivable in that fight, I think that we have16

divest of them, and also, because they are very expensive to17maintain.

And those capabilities that18

We can use those resources to invest in future

19

capabilities, the kind that we need to the next fight.

20

so, that is our strategy.

21

budget to the strategy, I think you will find a direct match

22

there.

23

Senator Fischer:And

And, again, as you match theThank you.

I hope you remember it

24

has to be matched to the will of the American people, as

25

well.

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1

Thank you.

2

Chairman Reed:

3

Senator Blumenthal, please?

4

Senator Blumenthal:5

Thank you both for your service.

Thank you, Senator Fischer.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will say on my own

6behalf, that we are very, very fortunate at this very

7

dangerous time in our nation's history to have one of the8most impress I defense and national security teams in recent

9history.

10

this very perilous time.

So, thank you for your service to our nation at

11

You know, I have visited Ukraine, as well as more

12

recently, Poland, the Ukrainian border with a number of my13colleagues.

14vehement, in support of more lethal arms delivered more

15

quickly to Ukrainians while they have lost 14,000 of their16

men and women in this fight for close to a decade against17

the Russians.

18

Since 2014, I have very vocal, indeed,

And now I must say that I continue to feel that we need19

to do more and do it more quickly in providing lethal arms

20

to Ukraine, including fighter jets, air defense systems,

21

ammunition, Javelin missiles, Stingers, and other systems

22

that the Ukrainians can use.

23

Now, I agree that it is going to be a long slog, Mr.

24

Chairman.

25

need to be there for the Ukrainians in the midst of this

It is a protracted war going to the east, but we

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long slog.

2

And you have said that the outcome is an open question,3

but what troubles me is that saying it is an open question4

is a prediction.

5

to win and it seems to me that often our strategy seems

6

somewhat schizophrenic.

7

The objective is to enable the Ukrainians

We want the Ukrainians to defeat the Russians, but we8

are afraid that pushing Putin into a defeat may provoke

9

escalation.

10fears and realistically provide Ukrainians what they need to

11

win.

12

It seems to me that we need to address thoseAnd so let me ask you whether you feel, for example,

13

that we can do more to train the Ukrainians in anticipation

14of that long slog to use more advanced weapon systems that15

we could provide.

16

as the A-10s that we are, in fact, diminishing in use in our

17

own armed services?

18

be more effective in the kinds of aerial defenses that will

19

stop Putin's reign of terror?

20

Number two, can we provide systems such

Can we provide more enabled assets to

Can you give me an assurance that we will do whatever21

it takes to enable the Ukrainians to win, while avoiding the22

escalation into a nuclear confrontation?

23

Secretary Austin:

24

Well, first of all, I have to tell you that providing

25

the Ukrainians what they need is at the top of my list of

Well, thank you, sir.

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things to focus on every day, and this is a thing that the2

Chairman and I talk about with our subordinate commanders

3

every day.

4

countries in the region and around the world, quite frankly,

5in trying to make sure that we not only provide what we can,6

but that we are getting some assistance from other7

countries.

8

And we are personally involved in engaging

There are some 30 nations that are providing

9assistance, in addition to us, and that is the part that you

10

don't see on a daily basis, because we don't talk about it

11very often.

12

Ukrainians are used to using.

13

effective, thus far, and we will continue that work.

Many of these systems are systems that the
They have been very

14

Can we provide them training?

15

Our focus right now is to provide training, where

16

necessary, on those systems that we are providing them, you

17know, that we can get that training done in short order.

18

They are in a knife fight and so, you know, taxes large

19

numbers of people out for long periods of time is not20

helpful to them.

21

On the A-10, I will invite the Chairman to comment on

22

this, but, again, this is a high-threat, air defense

23

environment and the A-10, we have to do the analysis to24

ensure that if you did that, it could survive and I question

25

whether or not it would survive in the current environment.

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Senator Blumenthal:

Let me ask you this, Mr.

2

Secretary, shouldn't we be using, now, the Defense

3

Production Act to produce more of the Javelins, the4Stingers, all of the stocks that we are using and5diminishing and running low on and our allies, as well,

6

shouldn't we be applying the Defense Production Act?

7

Secretary Austin:

We are pushing hard and engaging

8

industry to make sure that we move the production of these9

items as quickly as we can, and that is not an easy task

10with at least one of the items there.

11

this, continue to move this in terms of additional

12

production as fast and efficiently as we can.

13

Senator Blumenthal:

But we will move

And are you alarmed that the14

Russians are not returning your call, that they are not15

communicating with you?

16

Secretary Austin:Shouldn't we be alarmed?
Disappointed, for sure.

But, you17

know, again, based upon what they have done, nothing

18

surprises me, but it doesn't mean that we will stop reaching

19

out to engage them.

20

talk to the leadership.

21

Chairman Reed:

22

Senator Cotton, please?

23

Senator Cotton:

I think we have to have the ability toThank you, Senator Blumenthal.

Secretary Austin, why will you not say

24

the words "win" and "victory" when it comes to Ukraine?

25

Senator Blumenthal just gave an impassioned speech

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1
2

about this.

It is clear that it is what both parties want.

I reviewed your written testimony.

You talk about3

deterrence 29 times.

4"victory" in reference to Ukraine, nor does the Secretary of

5State, the National Security Advisor, the vice president, or

6

the President.

7
8
9
10
11

You never once used the word "win" orHave the words "win" and "victory" been purged from theadministration's vocabulary when it comes to Ukraine?
Secretary Austin:

The word "win" has certainly not

been purged from our vocabulary.
Senator Cotton:

Do you want Ukraine to win or do you

12want this war merely to end?

13

Secretary Austin:

I think the Chairman pointed out

14very accurately what our desired end state would be:

15

Ukraine maintains its sovereignty and its ability to protect

16

its country, defend itself; it maintains its government.

17

Russia is weakened militarily and Russia, from a18

geopolitical standpoint, has, you know, is a pariah and, you

19

know, countries will not volunteer to align itself with

20

Russia.

21

kinds of things beginning to happen.

22

Some of that will happen, but we can see those

Senator Cotton:

I thought, I mean, I thought the23

Chairman's response to Senator Gillibrand was pretty good on

24this point about what Ukraine winning looked like:25

and independent Ukraine with sovereignty and control over

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its own territory.

2

Does that include the territory that Russia or Russian

3

proxies controlling the Donbas, as of February 24, the day

4

before the invasion?

5

Secretary Austin:

I think it is appropriate to let

6

President Zelenskyy and the Government of Ukraine define

7

what that is going forward, sir.

8

Senator Cotton:

Are you or anyone else in the9administration discouraging President Zelenskyy or your10

counterparts from launching attacks that would involve

11

taking back any part of the Donbas or the Crimea?

12

Secretary Austin:

13

Senator Cotton:

14

conduct such attacks?

15

Secretary Austin:

16
17
18

No.
Are you providing them intelligence to

We are providing them intelligence

to conduct operations in the Donbas; that is correct.
Senator Cotton:

In the Donbas, on the territory that

Russia or its proxies controlled before the invasion?

19

Secretary Austin:

20

Senator Cotton:

21
22

Yeah.

And we are going to make --Offensive operations to reclaim theirown territory, are you providing that intelligence to them?
Secretary Austin:

We want to make sure that is clear

23

to our force, and so updated guidance that goes out today,

24

we will make sure that that is clear.

25

Senator Cotton:

Updated guidance.

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So, that means that

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the current guidance has said, don't provide that2

information?

3

Secretary Austin:Well, certainly, the current

4

guidance was not clear in that regard, so we will make sure5

it is clear.

6

Senator Cotton:

And I think this is part of what you

7

heard from both parties in this committee, is that as much

8

as we have done, we are still engaged in too many half-

9measures.

10

miss in our posture towards this war.

11

There is still too much hesitancy intended to

And I just want to talk about our own posture.

Admiral12Richard testified to the committee that he had advised that13

we should go forward with a normal routine, regularly

14

scheduled test of our ICBMs.

15

now it has been canceled.

That test was postponed and16

Why did you cancel that test, Mr. Secretary?

17

Secretary Austin:Well, we postponed it so that, you

18

know, again, we are at a very tenuous point.

19

make sure that we were doing prudent things and managing

20

escalation.

21

decision that we had postponed it to the degree that it was

22

best to go ahead and cancel it.

We wanted to

And we reached a point where I made the23

I would tell you that I am confident in our ability to24

maintain our programs and to stay on track and to provide a25

credible deterrence and to protect our allies and partners.

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Senator Cotton:

Well, this, see, I am confident, as

2

well.

I am confident because we do conduct these routine

3

tests.

We don't cancel them because Volodymyr Putin has

4

decided to invade one of his neighbors.

5

And the fact that we postponed it and then we canceled

6

it because it is escalatory, to me, just says to Volodymyr

7

Putin, that we are nervous about what he is going to do, as

8

opposed to trying to make him nervous about what Ukraine and9America and NATO is going to do next.

10
11
12

Secretary Austin:This is a form of --If we were concerned about him being

nervous -Senator Cotton:

This is a form of self-deterrence.

I

13

mean, the Chairman has said this war could go on for years.

14

If a missile test in March of 2022 is escalatory, is it

15

going to be escalatory in 2023 and 2024 and 2025?

16

Secretary Austin:17

on at that point in time.

18

Senator Cotton:

19

Secretary Austin:

It really depends on what is going

All right.
If you will look at, I know it is20

not lost on you, Senator, that we have rapidly deployed

21

forces to the eastern flank.

22amount of security assistance to Ukraine.

23

actions indicate that we are afraid of Mr. Putin.

We have pushed in a tremendous
And none of those24

Senator Cotton:

25

One final question for the Mr. Chairman.

All right.

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General

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Milley, I constantly hear concerns about professional

2

military education across the services, that it is not

3

focused enough on rigorous, operationally focused education.

4

There is too much things that are kind of beyond the5core warfighters' domain like, you know, international

6

studies, or development, economics.

You put out a very

7

strong memo on this in May of 2020.

Unfortunately, I still8

hear that some of the schools are not implementing that9

fully.

10

Could you talk to me a little bit about your concerns

11in that memo and what plans you have to make sure that that12

is driven down to the lowest level at our professional

13

military education schools?

14

General Milley:

15

Look, the U.S. military has two tasks:

Yeah, thanks, Senator.

16

and fight and win wars.

17

designed to do that.

18

That is it.

prepare for war

And the PME is

We set out that guidance in 2020 to emphasize that,19

warfighting, operational skills, strategic thought, et20

cetera, and we do periodic reviews.

21

probably about a couple of weeks ago, actually.

22

I said, how many contact hours do we do in the war

23colleges and staff colleges?

24

just under 5,000.

25

I just got a report

It came out to, round figures,

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1

80 percent of that time was spent on warfighting,2

operational art, and strategy.

3things like congressional engagement, public affairs,

4administrative tests you have to do to run the military.

The others are spent on

5

So, it is focused, 80 percent of the time is focused on

6

the warfighting skills necessary for command and leadership7

at the staff level at different organizations.

8

Chairman Reed:

Thank you, Senator Cotton.

9

Senator Cotton:

I would really like to take it to 100

10percent.

11

General Milley:

Sure.

12

Senator Cotton:

I bet the one thing you would like to13

strike is the congressional engagement?

14

General Milley:

No, it is an important --15

Chairman Reed:

Thank you, Senator Cotton.

16

Senator Hirono, please?

17

Senator Hirono:

18

Secretary Austin, I want to commend you for reaching19

the decision that you did to de-fuel and permanently close

20

the Red Hill storage facility on Oahu.

21

and safety of our citizens has been my number one priority,

22

and this decision not only protects the island's drinking

23

water, but will ultimately benefit operations in INDOPACOM

24

as we look to expand our ability to operate in a distributed

25

manner across the AOR.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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I also would like to particularly thank Deputy

2

Secretary of Defense Katherine Hicks for her diligent work3on this issue and her communicating with me personally.

4

And the closure of Red Hill is going to be a multi-year,

5

multi-phase endeavor.

6

itself; the closure of the facility; the cleanup of the

7

site.

8

and resources for years to come.

There is a de-fueling process,9

The entire effort will require significant planning

I ask you to work closely with the Hawaii Department of10

health and the EPA as we go forward.

11

President's budget shows DOD's commitment to the long-term

12

closure and cleanup of Red Hill and demonstrates, very

13

importantly to the people of Hawaii that the environmental

14

remediation will not fall to the wayside.

15
16

And the funding in the

Secretary Austin, would you like to add any comment to
this?

17

Secretary Austin:

18

First of all, I want to thank you, personally, for yourJust a couple, Senator.

19

leadership and that of your colleagues in doing the work

20

that you did to help us work our way through this and we

21

remain grateful to that.

22

safety and security and the health of, you know, our troops,

23

our families, the people in the community, it is absolutely

24

important to the Department of Defense.

25

I would also highlight that the

And you are correct, we have allocated funds that will

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help us begin to address the critical components here going2

forward.

3

doubt, carry a significant expense.

4

that Congress will continue to support us, as you have done5

to this point.

67
8

The de-fueling process, remediation, will be, no
And I certainly hopeSo, thank you.

Senator Hirono:

Thank you for your continued

leadership.
Secretary, it is my understanding that this year, the9National Defense Strategy and the Missile Defense Review

10were developed simultaneously for the first time to ensure

11alignment of decision-making across these documents.

12

In the NDS, one of your four stated priorities is13

defending the homeland, which will make sense to ensure that14

missile defense is in line with that priority.

15

the budget justification books are not out yet, one concern

16

I have is for the defense of Hawaii for missile threats.

17

And though

To date, the Department has spent significant resources18

on HDH -- HDR-H Hawaii, which I have supported, because we

19

were told many times that this was required by the20

operational commanders.

21

detail on the Department's decision relating to the future

22of HDR-H Hawaii, I would like to understand the Department's

23

position on defense of Hawaii and how, if HDR-H Hawaii is24

not funded, how the Department plans to upgrade radar

25

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And the question is, Secretary Austin, what is your2

plan for the future defense of Hawaii from missile threats?

3

Secretary Austin:

In terms of the defense of Hawaii

4right now, we are absolutely committed to defending this5

country.

6

is defended as we speak.

7
8

Hawaii is a key part of that defense and certainly

Now, going forward, Senator, you will note that we areinvesting $24.7 billion in --9

Senator Hirono:

10

Secretary Austin:Yes.
-- in missile defense and defeat.

11

And so, you know, we are developing the next-generation

12

interceptor and, you know, our goal is to stay two steps

13

ahead of our adversaries' emerging technologies and Hawaii

14will absolutely be a key part of that.

15

Senator Hirono:

So, just to be clear, then, if we are16

not going to be continuing to fund HDR-H Hawaii, that you

17

are developing, as you mentioned, the next-gen interceptors

18

to make sure that Hawaii is defended against missile

19

threats?

20

Secretary Austin:

21

Senator Hirono:

22

I just want to add my voice of concern regarding

23

Senator Wicker's line of questioning, relating to amphibious

24

ships and the fact that there will be only 3 of the 13

25

planned purchases of the San Antonio-class ships.

Absolutely, Senator.
Thank you.

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just want to add my concern that General Berger had asked2

for 31 ships and we are falling short of that, so I hope3that you have said that you are continuing to work with

4

General Berger, so I hope that we can come to a positive

5

resolution of the need that he has for these ships.

6

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

7

Chairman Reed:

8

Senator Rounds, please?

9

Senator Rounds:

10

Gentlemen, let me begin by saying thank you to all of

11

Thank you, Senator Hirono.

Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

you for your service to our country.

12

Secretary Austin, I appreciated the comments, the13clarifications, and so forth that you shared with Senator

14

Cotton.

15people understand that we want the Ukrainians to win and

16that we will support them with the appropriate background17

intelligence information and weapons so that they can regain

18

the territory that has been lost to Russia, and that19

includes the area in the Donbas.

20

important, clarifying point, so I thank you for that, sir.

21

I also, Mr. Secretary, and if this is an issue which

22

you would prefer to have Mr. McCord address, that is fine23with me, sir, but the industrial base that we have today in24

the United States is one that we, particularly, the Defense

25

Industrial Base is one that sometimes comes under question

I think it is really important that the American

I think that is a very

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621with regard to our long-term capabilities and, yet, it is2

something that has been of concern to this committee.

3think that the Joint Chiefs have expressed their concern in4

the past about our ability to respond and to build the5weapons and to maintain the weapon systems that we have.

6

And I

I want to point out one that we have in the past, and7

while it did not start on your watch, sir, I think it is8

critical that we fix it as soon as possible.

9

would like to talk about is an example that I have talked

10

about before.

11

use the Navy, because we have used the Navy in the past, the12ability of the Navy to manage scheduled maintenance for its

13

vessels is beyond concerning.

14

The ability of the Navy, and I am going to

The USS Boise is a case in point, but far from being

15

the only example.

16

nuclear attack sub.

17

1992.

18

its dive certification in 2017.

19

And what I

Now, the USS Boise is a Los Angeles-class
It was commissioned in November of

The Boise has not been on patrol since 2015.

It lostNow, we have had some of our folks, my MLA was onboard

20

the Boise in September of 2019, as its crew executed pre-21

maintenance procedures.

22

since it was last on patrol and it is still awaiting its

23

engineered overhaul and there is no funding to allow this to24

happen until at the earliest, fiscal year 2024, but probably

25

fiscal year 2025.

Here we are, 7-years-plus later

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Now, this is what is concerning.

Multiple captains of2

the Boise have spent their entire command at sea tour while3

it has been stuck in limbo.

4

pay for a nuclear attack submarine that hasn't executed its

5

mission in 7 years.

6

American taxpayers continue toNow, myself and my colleagues have asked tough7questions of Navy leaders for at least the last 5 years and8yet nobody in the Navy has been able to solve the problem.

9

Now, I am hearing that the Boise may be decommissioned

10
11

without ever receiving an overhaul.
I think this is simply not acceptable to have the12

taxpayer-funded, nuclear attack submarine with those13

capabilities out of service for more than 7 years and we

14

can't seem to get to the bottom of what the problem is.

15

Mr. Secretary, I am not sure if you are prepared to

16

discuss this or if you would like to have Mr. McCord attempt

17

it, but I would sure like to hear your thoughts.

18

Secretary Austin:

19

I would certainly invite Secretary McCord to make20

comments as well, but a couple of points that I would make21

up front is that, as you have heard me say, we continue to22

invest in our sub capability, especially the Columbia-class23

and that will continue going forward.

24

critical.

25

Well, thanks, sir.

We think it is

But the issue that you raise, I think, is an issue of

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capacity in our shipyards and so this budget invests $1.7

2billion in public shipyard capacity and the industrial base.

3

I think it is critical and we will continue to do our part4

to make sure that we are helping industry have what it, are5

helping create the capacity to take care of our capabilities

6

here.

7

Senator Rounds:

8

And perhaps rather than spending the rest of my time on

9this particular one, could I ask, would you get back with us

10

and let's find a solution to this problem.

Mr. Secretary, thank you.

11

Secretary Austin:

12

Senator Rounds:

13

General Milley, I have just one question for you andSure.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

14

that is, I know that you have been an Army officer and that15

you have commanded ground troops and you understand the need16

to have all possible systems available for their use.

17

There was and there continues to be a question as to18

whether or not land mines should be a part of our systems of

19

operations and, yet, sometimes I think people get a20

misunderstanding of the difference between anti-vehicle land21

mines and those which are anti-personnel land mines and they22

don't understand the differences on them.

23

This is a needed capability for our Armed Forces, is to24

have the ability for these land mines to be able to be used

25

in certain situations.

You understand that.

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1

The Army has been developing land mine alternatives for2over 12 years, yet the objective capability is not scheduled3

to be fielded until at least fiscal year 2030 or 2031.

4

me, the results are unacceptable to the mission and to the5force.

6

To

General Milley, could you, using your best professional

7

military advice, share with this committee, the need or

8

without the need for the upgrade of land mines and its

9critical importance to our Armed Forces.

10

General Milley:11

I do think land mines are important, especially if you

Thank you, Senator.

12

are in the defense, but also in any other capability in

13order to shape enemy operations.

14than what is happening, actually, in Ukraine.

15

are being effectively used by the Ukrainian Forces to shape16

the avenues of approach by Russian armored forces, which17puts them into engagement areas and makes them vulnerable to18

the anti-tank, the 60,000 anti-tank weapon systems that we19

are providing the Ukrainians.

20

reasons why you see column after column of Russian vehicles

21

that are destroyed.

22

We need to look no further
Land mines

So, that is one of theSo, anti-tank or anti-personnel mines are a very

23

effective use in combat.

24

for the United States for use and we are, the reason we are25

developing a newer one is so that they time out and they

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1

don't present harm after the conclusion of hostilities and2

they would self-detonate or self-, you know, destroy.

3

become inert at the end of hostilities.

4

are a very effective use in combat.

5

Senator Rounds:

6

Thank you, Chairman.

7

Chairman Reed:

8

They

So, but land mines

Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Rounds.

Thank youvery much.

9

Senator Kaine, please?

10

Senator Kaine:11

And thank you to our witnesses for your service and for

12
13

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

your effective work in recent months.
So, as Russia moves the focus on their military

14

operations to Donbas and the South, how would you, Secretary

15and Chairman, characterize North and West Ukraine, now, is16

it battlefield or non-battlefield?

17

Secretary Austin:Well, I would still categorize it as

18

part of the operating environment, the battlefield, the19battle space.

20

decide going forward.

21

continue to conduct strikes throughout that landscape and22

so, in my view, it is still part of the battlefield.

There is no telling what Mr. Putin will
Certainly, we expect that he will

23

Senator Kaine:

General?

24

General Milley:

Yeah, the same thing.

25

I mean, the main effort, if you will, of the Russians

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1

is shifting to the South and the city of Donbas, as reported

2

through the news.

3

way up through Kharkiv with the main effort in the vicinity

4of Izium.

5

And that really goes from Kherson all the

But the rest of Ukraine is still a battlefield, because

6

there is air and missile strikes that still go on and, you

7know, Russian Special Operations Forces are still operating

8

in some of those areas.

9zone and the rest of Ukraine, as well.

10

Senator Kaine:

So, it is clearly still a combat

As the war ratchets up in the South and

11East, do you agree with me that it is likely that Ukrainians

12

in that region, in some numbers, will try to flee the13

region, either to other parts of Ukraine or to other14

countries?

15

General Milley:

I think for civilians, the answer, you

16

know, the human instinct to survive is very powerful, so as

17they recognize the danger they are in, I think there will be

18

a high likelihood that additional refugees or internally19

displaced persons will leave.

20

million or so refugees and another five million, I think, of

21

internally displaced.

22

and I would imagine more will leave that area.

23
24
25

Senator Kaine:

We already have got five

We are well over 10 million right now

And as a general matter, I think

Ukrainians would like to say in their own country.
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fleeing the East to go elsewhere in Ukraine if they were2safe, rather than to go into other nations, where they are a3significant burden on other countries?

4

General Milley:

Sure.

5

Senator Kaine:

If President Zelenskyy were to appeal

6

to the United States, NATO, the U.N., and say, the7ratcheting up of the war in the East is going to create such8

a pressure for people to flee, these people want to stay in

9Ukraine, can you guys, our allies and NGOs flood

10

humanitarian relief into Western Ukraine, shelter, medical

11

capacity, food, so that displaced persons in large numbers,

12

will be able to come to a place in Ukraine, rather than flee

13

across the borders and if President Zelenskyy were to ask

14

for the United States' assistance in doing that, should we

15

seriously entertain that request?

16

General Milley:

I would say that is a policy question,17

but in terms of humanitarian aid, there is a lot of18

humanitarian aid moving into Ukraine in addition to the19

military.

20

I think is more appropriate as a policy question.

But the latter question, or the question, itself,

21

Senator Kaine:

22

Secretary Austin:

Mr. Secretary?
I agree with the Chairman, Senator.

23

It is a question that our leadership will have to take on

24

and be very deliberate about.

25

would need to consider is what we need to do if we are going

And one of the things that we

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to put people in there to protect that area, and that is a2

decision that takes you to, you know, to fighting the3

Russians.

4

And so, that is a pretty significant decision, but I

5would emphasize what the Chairman has said, USAID and others

6

are flowing a lot of humanitarian assistance across the7border now and the Europeans are pretty good at providing

8

this kind of assistance.

9

Senator Kaine:

10

Some of my colleagues have raised the concern about

11

inflation and what that means with respect to the defense

12budget.

13

inflation:

14

in the GDP, historic growth in wages and salaries.

15

Right.

Let me switch topics.

There is other economic trends, other thanhistoric job growth right now, historic growthThis morning, new unemployment claims were announced

16

and it is the lowest number since 1968.

17

we are seeing 965,000 new unemployment claims a week.

18

166,000 now.

19

In January of 2021,
It is

Many of us met with Admiral Gilday and Secretary Del

20

Toro this morning.

21

the strong job growth is great, but it also creates22

workforce challenges, both within the uniform service, but

23also in our industrial base.

24
25

We asked about, hey, that is fantastic,

How are you tackling the workforce needs of our defense
system today when the unemployment rate is dropping so

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1
2

quickly?
Secretary Austin:Well, that certainly does, one of3

the things that creates headwinds for us going forward in4

terms of recruiting not only uniform personnel, but also

5getting the right kinds of talent that we need to fill our

6

ranks here.

7

to making sure that we are doing the right things and8marketing and advertising and outreach.

9

We will continue to, you know, devote resources

But these are challenges that we faced before and we10

are just going to have to double-down and make sure that we11

are active in the right areas and we are committing the12right resources to make sure that we get the quality people

13

that we need to be successful.

14

Chairman Reed:

15

Senator Ernst, please?

16

Senator Ernst:

17

And gentlemen, thank you so much for your continued

18

Thank you, Senator Kaine.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

service to our great country.

We are appreciative.

19

And Secretary Austin, there has been a lot of

20

discussion about Ukraine and Russia this morning.

21

your opening statement, you did say that U.S. security

22

policy must reflect the will of the American people.

23

the American people right now, we are calling on the24administration to do more and to be tougher on Russia and25

bring more capability to bear for Ukraine.

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And inAnd

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1

The Washington Post just this morning, in one of their2polls, found that 56 percent of Americans think we haven't

3

been tough enough on Russia.

4

to say when for Ukraine, victory for Ukraine, I will say it,

5

and I know a number of my colleagues will say it.

6very firmly about victory for Ukraine and maintaining its

7

sovereign integrity as a nation.

8

governance, is it all very important to so many Americans,

9because so much Americans see themselves reflected in the10

Ukrainians.

11

a long way over the last 30 years.

12

still a free and sovereign Ukraine.

13

And so, whatever the hesitancy

I feelTheir democratic form of

They are a first world country.

They have comeSo, success to me, is

So, I do hope that we will continue to press very hard

14

to make sure.

15of lethal aid, but we absolutely must ensure that we are16

doing everything we can for the country of Ukraine and the17

citizens that are there.

18

As you say, things are speeding up, delivery

And so, I am going to turn, because we have focused lot

19

offer Ukraine and Russia.

20

like to jump to Central Command, if we can.

21

about the budgetary cuts and some of the flatlines that we22

are seeing across our CENTCOM operations budget.

23

General Milley, I just, I would
I am concerned

And many of the extremist organizations that are backed

24by the Iranian regime are striking across the region and25

there are four terrorist organizations that are now

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1

operating in Afghanistan and yet we don't have a U.S.

2

footprint there to make sure that they aren't pushing3

threats against our homeland.

4

So, have your Gulf State military counterparts,

5

particularly, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the Abraham Accords-

6

member countries, react to our reduced military budget, have7

you had any input from them?

8

General Milley:

Not about the budget per se, but there

9is concern because we have, the Department of Defense, we10

are doing a global posture review, as you know, and we are

11

making adjustments to the footprint and then the Ukraine

12

situation is a new development since we began that review

13

quite some time ago.

14

well.

And CENTCOM is part of that review, as

15

So, there is concern in the CENTCOM area of operations

16

about what the result will be in terms of the footprint in

17

CENTCOM and we are continuing to work with our allies and18

partners to make sure that it is appropriate to the level of

19threat.

20

residual threat in Afghanistan, but also throughout the21

region --We clearly recognize the terrorist threat both, the22

Senator Ernst:

Uh-huh.

23

General Milley:-- and we think that we do have "over24

the horizon" capabilities, which we can discuss in25classified session, but we do think we are effective in

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1

being able to find, fix, and when necessary, strike any

2potential threat to the homeland.

3

Senator Ernst:

And it has been reported that the4

Emirates won't accept the President's phone calls.

5

able to visit with your counterparts in the U.A.E.?

6
7

General Milley:

Are you

I have not add any issue contacting

counterparts in the Middle East.

8

Senator Ernst:

9

conversation with them.

10

relationships through the Middle East, so I do appreciate

11

that.

12

And thank you for continuing the
It is important that we maintain

With the administration continuing the negotiation of13

the Iranian nuclear deal and then pair that with the reduced

14

footprint that we have in the Middle East, is that driving

15

some of the Gulf States' neutrality when it comes to the16

Russian-Ukrainian conflict, your opinion?

17

General Milley:18

to ask them point-blank.

19

point-blank to them.

20

would be speculating, so I would have to get back to you on

21

that.

I actually don't know.

I would have

I haven't asked those questions

I think they probably, I don't know, I

22

Senator Ernst:

23

And then just very briefly, as well, we haven't talked

Oh, okay.

No, I appreciate that.

24

about this today, but it is something that is on my mind,

25

and that is recruiting for our military.

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And we have found

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741that Americans between the age of 17 to 24, only 29 percent

2of them would even be eligible to enlist.

3

Just very briefly, thoughts on that?

4

General Milley:

That is, you are about right, 29

5

percent are eligible to meet the standards:

6

educational, discipline, legal, all that.

7

than that have a propensity, it is less than 5 percent that8

have a propensity to serve.

9

is because of COVID.

10

up once you make contact.

11

medical,And even less

And we know that part of that

We know that propensity to serve goesSo, contact, personal contact with individuals out

12

there in the recruiting regions, that is the key to13propensity to serve.

14

environment right now, and as you know, I think the Army is15

a little bit behind.

16

all meeting their marks.

17

and that will get adjusted as high schools graduate in the18

summer.

19

projected to come in a point or two below the 100 percent.

20

The other services are going to be at 100 percent.

21

Senator Ernst:

22

Thank you, Gentlemen.

23

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

24

Chairman Reed:

25

Senator Warren, please?

So, it is a tough recruiting

The Navy, Marines, and Air Force are
We are only 4 months into the year

And I think at the end of the year, the Army isThank you.

Thank you, Senator Ernst.

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1

Senator Warren:2

So, in the new budget, the Pentagon is asking for a lot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3of money:4

low and last week they proposed adding as much as ninety to

5$100 billion more.

6

needed because of inflation.

7$773 billion.

But some lawmakers say this is too

The claim is that the extra money isNow, there is no question that inflation is raising8

costs across the country, but we have also seen big

9companies taking advantage of inflation to jack up prices

10

and to pad their profit margins.

11

problem in industries with lots of consolidation.

That is a particular12

The defense industry, which had 51 major companies

13

competing for defense contracts 30 years ago, today, has

14

five.

15

That is concentration.
Price gouging by defense contractors has been a big

16

problem for a long time.

17

found that defense contractors charge DOD $71 for a pen that18

should have cost less than a nickel and $80 for a drainpipe

19

segment that should have cost $1.41.

20

investing to their investors that profits will be even21

higher this year.

22

dollars and it hurts military readiness.

Inspector General reports have

And CEOs are alreadyThat kind of profiteering wastes taxpayer

23

Secretary Austin, let me ask you, under our budget,24

obviously, you have to account, we have to account for cases

25

where suppliers are increasing prices to cover higher costs

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761

elsewhere in the supply chain.

2

these companies are doing very well for themselves.

We understand that.

But

3

Should taxpayers be expected to subsidize higher

4

profits for contractors that are using inflation as a cover5

to raise their prices above and beyond what is justified by

6

an increase in expenses?

7

Secretary Austin:

The short answer, Senator, is no.

8

And you have any commitment and the commitment of my entire

9

team that we are going to do everything within our power to10

make sure that we are managing contracts and monitoring

11

behavior so that we enable the people of the United States

12of America to get best value for its investments.

13
14
15

Senator Warren:

Good.

I very much appreciate that,

Secretary Austin.
You know, one of the things that defense contractors

16

love to do when they are flush with extra cash, courtesy of17

the taxpayers, is to goose their stock prices.

18

Pentagon's top contractors spent $15.5 billion on net

19buybacks last year, sending their stock prices zooming.

20

That is the most of any year on record ever.

21

The

But it is not just members of Congress who are using

22

inflation as an excuse to ask for more money from the23

Pentagon.

24

officials doing the same earlier this week.

25

I was actually troubled to hear some Pentagon

So, Secretary Austin, let me ask you directly:

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comfortable with the figure in the President's proposed2budget?

3

Secretary Austin:

I am comfortable, and here is why,4

Senator.

5

through great pains to develop a National Defense Strategy

6

and we knew that our budget would have to match that7

strategy.

8

that was the case.

9

I you may have heard me say earlier that we went

And so, we went through great pains to make sureThis is a robust budget and I think it allows us to get

10

the capabilities that we need to support our operational

11

concepts.

12
13
14

Senator Warren:

Okay.

And you are good on thisnumber, without adding another ninety or $100 billion to it?
Secretary Austin:

We certainly want to have the buying

15

power to get the things that we need, but, yeah, this is,16

this budget gives us what we need to get the operational

17

capabilities.

18

Senator Warren:

I think that $773 billion for the

19

Pentagon is already way too high, but the notion that we20

need to increase the total by another $100 billion or $400

21

billion every year just invites defense contractors to pick22

taxpayers' pockets.

23

The American people are willing to pay to defend this24

country, but they are not going to sit still for being

25

gouged by hugely profitable defense companies.

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1
2

appreciate your help on this, Secretary Austin.
I am almost out of time.

But, Mr. McCord, I want to3

remind you that you owe this committee a backlog of several

4years of reports on the European Deterrence Initiative.

5

Do I have your word we are going to get that done soon?

6

Mr. McCord:

7

Senator Warren:

All right.

8

Chairman Reed:

Thank you, Senator Warren.

9

Senator Sullivan, please?

10

Senator Sullivan:

11

And, gentlemen, thank you for your hard work.

Yes, Senator.

We will get those reports.
Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12

you have been burning the midnight oil.

13

certainly appreciates it.

14
15
16

I know

This committee

I want to agree with Senator Fischer on the NDS andgetting that out.

I actually read the classified version.

I think there is not much in it that is classified,

17

actually.

18

soon, you know, maybe remove a certain element to it, but I

19think that would be important.

I think you could get that out publicly pretty

20

I was struck by pretty much everybody here, the21

Chairman, all of you gentlemen talking about how dire the22

global security challenges are, great power conflict

23

increasing, more likely.

24
25

General Milley, you said the greatest to global peaceand security in your lifetime right now.

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1

So, clearly, national security threats have increased

2since the last time you were here a year ago, isn't that3

correct, Mr. Secretary?

4

Secretary Austin:

5

General Milley?
Well, certainly, you know, we havebeen focused on our pacing challenge of China.

6

Senator Sullivan:

Yeah.

7

Secretary Austin:

And Russia is an acute threat and,8
9

right -Senator Sullivan:

But I mean, I don't want to be rude,10

but since you testified last year, your testimony today,

11both of yours with last year's, the security threat has been

12

significantly heightened and that is what you have both just13

said, correct?

14
15

Secretary Austin:Tensions are certainly heightened,

that's right.

16

Senator Sullivan:

17

Well, you already said it, so --18

General Milley:

19

Senator Sullivan:

General Milley?

That is correct.
So, here is the thing on that.

I am

20

actually stunned that the President put forward another21

budget that actually calls for real defense cuts.

22

percent increase with 8 percent inflation is a 4 percent

23

real inflation adjusted budget.

24
25

I think it is irresponsible.

A 4

I think it is dangerous.

When you look at shrinking the Navy, shrinking the Air

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1Force, there is no doubt in my mind that that gives our2enemies comfort and I think that this budget doesn't align3

with your statements about the severity of the national

4

security challenges we face right now.

5

And what is likely to happen, and it is sad, is that

6

once again, we are going to have to push the President to7

increase the budget in a bipartisan way, the way we did it

8last year.

9

It is sad.

The Commander-in-Chief can't reject some of his far

10left members and say, we need a robust budget.

11

forward a budget that cuts defense spending, so I am going12

to have problems with that.

13

We putGeneral Milley, I want to compliment you on your14

speech.

15

prophetic, in my view, speech on Putin and the threat he16

brings forward.

17

speech, I remember, but I think if you re-read the speech,18

you were right on with what was happening.

19

I think it was in 2016, you gave a reallyAnd you were all criticized for thatBut you are seeing, here, I think there is a source of20

bipartisan frustration to what is happening.

21

have been working hard on Ukraine, but I think when the22

intel committees were briefing us prior to the invasion,

23

they got it right and so did all of you, what was going to24happen.

25

I know you

Then there was this notion that, and we were all

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briefed on it, that they were going to lose, the Ukrainians,

2

within 7 to 10 days.

3

are going to get crushed.

4
5

Okay.

That was the uniform briefing:

They got that wrong.

they

A lot of people got thatwrong.

6

I think the shift that we need to do now is to Senator7

Blumenthal, Senator Cotton, Senator Ernst, to strategically8

think about victory.

9

are working this hard, but when you have to talk about key

10

objectives, number one, don't engage Russia with a conflict,11

keep NATO cohesion, support the Ukrainian people as the key

12

objectives, doesn't it make sense to have as our number one

13

objective, imposing a strategic defeat on Putin that we have14

the opportunity to do right now in align with what you said.

15
16
17
18
19
20

And, again, General Milley, I know you

And I think that is a source of frustration for a lotof senators.

We are not hearing that language.

General Milley:

I mean, I think, well, I have heardthat language many times, actually.
Senator Sullivan:

Well, I mean, you just listed thethree objectives.

21

General Milley:

22

Senator Sullivan:

23

were all defensive-sounding.

I did.

24

General Milley:

25

Senator Sullivan:

Those were the, to be honest, they

Yeah.
Here is what we won't do.

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what we won't do.

2

General Milley:

3

Senator Sullivan:

4

But what about, we are at a big moment.

5than Ukraine.

Right.
Here is what we will do.
This is bigger

What about --6

General Milley:

7

Senator Sullivan:

8

General Milley:

If I may?
Yes, sir, go ahead.
At the national level, the President

9

has said to us, at large, the national security team, to10

impose severe costs and do not let Putin win to ensure that11

Ukraine --12

Senator Sullivan:

I would respectfully recommend you

13

put that as your number one objective.

14

mention that in your three objectives.

15

General Milley:

Right.

You didn't even

But those severe costs are16

being done by other elements, not the U.S. uniform military.

17

That is why, the U.S. uniform military has a different task

18

here, which is to ensure, deter our NATO allies to prevent

19

war expanding and escalating, to ensure that Ukraine gets20

the means that are necessary in order to defend itself so it

21

can remain free and sovereign, and then also to continue to22maintain the cohesion of NATO.

23

military tasks.

24

the uniform military tasks.

25

Senator Sullivan:

Those are the uniform

We are not talking about a broad, but justLet me -- I have one question, Mr.

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Chairman, and it will be quick, just one final one.

2

There are press reports that the JCPOA consideration,3

one of the big redline debates right now is for us to agree,4

us, the United States, the to delist the RGC as an

5organization that sponsors terrorism.

The Iranians want it.

6

You gentlemen, unfortunately, have led troops, some of7

our finest, over 2,000 wounded and killed by the Quds Force

8

IRGC with the weapons they supplied to Iraqi militias.

9

sure hundreds under your command were killed or wounded.

10

The IRGC has recently been responsible for missile attacks

11

in coordination with the Houthis against U.A.E. civilians,

12

our longstanding ally in the region, U.A.E.

13

I am

Is there any universe in which the two of you could say

14

you support the delisting of this terrorist organization

15

with blood of American soldiers on its hands, recently, and16

delist them as state sponsor of terrorism because Iran wants

17

it?

18

We should tell Iran to go pound sand.

There is no way

19

in hell that they shouldn't be delisted.

20

your personal opinion, given how much experience you have21

with Iran in the Middle East, believe on that question?

22

Secretary Austin:

What do you two in

Senator, respectfully, I won't

23

comment on negotiations that are ongoing and speculate on

24

what my advice to the President is going to be.

25--

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Senator Sullivan:

In your personal opinion, we have2

asked you before that you can give us that, even though it

3

might conflict with the administration's view.

4

you committed to do with this committee, so I would ask you,5

again, both of you, your personal opinion.

6
7

Secretary Austin:
Senator.

That is what

And my answer remains unchanged,

Thank you.

8

Senator Sullivan:

9

in your personal opinion.

10

General Milley:

General Milley, you have been asked

Yeah, Senator, just for clarity,

11

political appointees are different than me.

12

a document that requires me to give you --I have to sign

13

Senator Sullivan:

14

And I am sorry, Mr. Secretary, I didn't mean you.

15

meant General Milley.

16

General Milley:

You are right.
I

So, in my personal opinion, I believe

17

the IRGC Quds Force to be a terrorist organization and I do

18

not support them being delisted from the foreign terrorist

19

organization.

20

Senator Sullivan:

21

Chairman Reed:

22

Thank you for your honesty.

Thank you, Senator Sullivan.

Thank youvery much.

23

Senator King, please?

24

Senator King:

25

A series of fairly detailed questions.

Thank you.

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Mr. McCord, you

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haven't had much fun this morning, so I want to try to get2

you into this discussion.

3

The Ukrainian aid that we have supplied thus far and we4

are planning to supply and will undoubtedly supply more in5

the future, where does that fit into the defense budget?

6

don't have OCO anymore.

7

defense budget?

Are they extra budgetary appropriations?

8Mr. McCord:

Senator, the aid that the Secretary has

We

Is this coming out of the current

9

been talked about this morning, the Javelins, the Stingers,

10

the body armor, all those things have come out of the

11

funding that was provided in the supplemental attach to the12omnibus funding bill that was enacted --13

Senator King:

14

replenishment as well.

15

stocks that we are supplying and also replenishment to some16

of our NATO allies.

So, it is not.

And there will be a

We are going to have to replenish

17

Will that come out of the future defense budget?

18

not -- this is isn't an argumentative question, I am

19

legitimately curious.

20

Mr. McCord:21

The funding to replenish, part of that supplemental $3

I amNo, you are correct, Senator.

22

and a half billion of that supplemental was funds to23

replenish the drawdown materials provided to Ukraine.

24

first tranche of that was notified to the committee, I

25

believe, last Friday.

The

A billion and a half of those funds

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861will start flowing, but it is not part of the normal defense

2budget build to exercise drawdown authority at this level.

3

So, if we are going to continue, that might be45something we need to look at going forward.
Senator King:

Two other questions.

I think you

6

testified you wrestled with inflation as you were preparing

7

the budget.

8

inflation doesn't necessarily apply to the things that you

9buy; is that correct?

10

have 7 percent inflation, the military, and the military

11

budget doesn't have 7 percent increase, then it is a cut.

12

Please explain the inflation as it applies to theI think you said that the general CPI rate of13

military budget.

14

Mr. McCord:

So, it is not accurate to say if weThat is correct.

About 60 to 65 percent

15

of our budget is buying goods and services from our16

industrial base and about 25, 30 percent goes to military

17

pay, and then we have a couple other if factors like fuel.

18

We have different inflation rates that are applied to19each of them, but by and large, a GDP deflator is the most20

accurate description of what we buy.

21

last year, not 7 percent.

22

making.

That is the point that I was

23

Senator King:24

How are we doing on the audit?

25

That went up 4 percent

A quick other question for you.
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committee.

2

audit?

3

Are we making progress to getting toward a clean

Mr. McCord:

Senator, we are making progress, but the4

progress is not where it needs to be.

5been clear with me on that.

6

was not where it needed to be and there was a couple of7

reasons for that, from the gaps in a transition year to

8

COVID.

9

The Secretary has

The progress we made last year

We have been making some progress that is a bit below

10

the radar screen.

11

fail grades that are the heart of an audit.

12

redouble our efforts and Secretary --It has not yet translated to the passWe do need to13

Senator King:

14

The prior administration made some progress on that andWell, I would appreciate it.

15

I hope that that momentum won't be lost.

16

responsibility that we have to the American people.

17

This is a

Secretary Austin, there are several wars going on right18

now. One is in Ukraine, but one of them is also within the19

United States where about, I think 100,000 people died of20

overdose deaths last year.

21

country.

That is an attack on our

22

My concern is, when we had SOUTHCOM in here, they don't

23

have, they have 1 percent of the ISR resources worldwide and24

they don't have adequate resources to interdict those25

shipments by sea that we know about through our limited ISR.

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I would hope that you would pay some attention to that,2

to add to your attention to that, and also to think about

3

setting this up in some way that there is somebody in4charge.

5

My worry is you have got DEA, you have got the Coast

6

Guard, you have partners, you have the CIA, and you have the7

Defense Department and nobody is in charge, and the result

8

is two people a day in my state are dying.

9

we have to work on the demand side, but it is very10

frustrating when I have testimony year after year that we11

are only interdicting 25 percent of the shipments that we

12know about.

And I understandThat is inexcusable.

13

Mr. Secretary, I hope you will recommit to this war.

14

Secretary Austin:

Two things, Senator.

We will15

certainly make sure that SOUTHCOM Commander has what she

16needs to be effective in these efforts and, you know, I have17

discussed this with her before, but clearly, you know, the18limiting factor is ISR.

19

sure that, where possible, we get her more capability.

20

Senator King:

And we will work with her to makeWell, let's put it in the budget and buy

21

more.

22

have and it seems to me that is an engineering problem and23

we should be able to solve that.

24
25

I mean, ISR in a function of how many devices you

I am out of time, but Mr. Secretary, I want to commend
you on the significant both in the R&D budget.

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I think that

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is an enormously important area and, frankly, it is an area2

where we have fallen behind.

3

energy are two areas that are strategic game changers that,4

frankly, I think our country is behind, and so the5

additional resources into R&D is absolutely critical.

6

Wars often turn on the utilization of new technology.

7

English at the Battle of Agincourt with one-third of the8

French Army, won that battle because the radical utilization

9of the long bow.

10

technology that is going to win the next war.

11

Hypersonics and directed

The

That changed warfare in 1450 and it is

And so, again, I want to commend you for the commitment

12

to R&D, and standfast on that.

13

more expenditure in the budget.

I don't think there is a

14

Senator King:

15

Senator Cramer:

16

Thank you both for being here and for your service.

17

Mr. Secretary, last month, your deputy said that the18

Department, as directed by President Biden, aims to reach19

net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.

20

she mentioned the danger posed by China, illegal Russian21

aggression in Europe, persistent threats from Iran, North

22

Korea, and other state actors.

23

work with and under you, consistently and appropriately

24

referenced the importance of modernization, lethality,

25

readiness, obviously.

[Presiding.]

Senator Cramer?

Thank you, Senator.

Then, she said,

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My question is, do you think China, Russia, Iran, and2

North Korea are going to be slowed in their military3

development by climate-change concerns?

456

Secretary Austin:

I don't believe so and I don't

believe we will either, Senator.
Senator Cramer:

Do you know if they have plans to7reach net-zero, any of them?

8

Secretary Austin:

Senator, I, again, I have asked you

9for $773 billion to support the capabilities that we think10

we need and I certainly appreciate what you have done for us

11

in the past, but I think there is also things that we can

12

and should be doing to address the climate issue, as well.

13

It affects our installations.

It causes problems that14

cause mass migration and other things in the areas that we

15

operate in and our forces are committed to fighting

16

wildfires and helping in the aftermath of severe storms on

17

an increasing basis.

18
19

So, I don't think this is a thing that we can discountand I think the Defense Department has to do its part.

20

Senator Cramer:

21

And, frankly, I hope that we can give you a lot more

22

than you have asked for to actually do those things, Mr.

23

Secretary.

24

the calculation that would measure the negative impact of

25

say, our failure to deter the Russian invasion of Ukraine;

I appreciate that.

But as you are talking with me, I am imagining

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in other words, I appreciate that you have this concern, but

2

I also hope we can keep the main thing the main thing,3

because just like more energy development in the United

4

States and providing that energy to our allies actually5

brings down greenhouse gas emissions, I think deterring the6same polluters that have benefited from a lower standard

7

than ours would also do the same.

8

And so, we want to make sure that you have the9resources to do exactly what you need to do to get -- to10

accomplish all of those good goals.

11

General Milley, maybe I can just ask you.

I noticed

12

you don't mention it much; in fact, you didn't at all.

13

Secretary mentioned climate change five times in his written

14

opening comments.

15

Strategy, sort of highlighted.

16

national military strategy when you provide that.

17
18

The

It is referenced in the National Defense
We will see if it is in the

But do you think climate change is a military objectivethat the Department should be focused on tackling?

19

General Milley:20

For the military, though, for the uniform military, it

It is a Departmental objective.

21

is a condition under which we will operate and it is22

something that we will have to took into consideration in23

the conduct of our operations, for sure, because you know,24

if you look at Lake Chad as just one example, if you look at

25

a picture in 1950 and look at Lake Chad and look at it

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today, well, the reason that there is a lot of instability

2in that particular region is because there is no water and3

there are a lot of resource struggles going on.

4

So, climate change has an impact on military operations

5for sure, and it is going to be a predictor for where likely

6

instability will occur in the future.

7

under which we operate, as opposed to something that we can

8

fix.

9

Senator Cramer:So, it is a condition

Mr. Secretary, I want to talk a little

10

bit about the fear of escalation.

11

lot.

12

situation in Russia depends on us and a lot less on

13

Volodymyr Putin.

14

personal view is we have made too many decisions based on

15

how we think Volodymyr Putin would respond to this16

situation, things like limiting the kind of help we would

17

provide Ukraine, how quickly we would provide that help,

18

postponing and then canceling a Minuteman test that was19scheduled, a Minuteman-III test and not facilitating the20

transfer of MiGs, just a few of the examples.

That is, we hear that a

It seems that many times the fear of escalating the

And I just think we have made too many, my

21

Do you have any evidence that Volodymyr Putin is ever22

worried that his massacre of women and children civilians

23

would escalatory?

24
25

Secretary Austin:

You know, I don't know what is in

the mind of Volodymyr Putin and a lot of other people don't

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either, Senator.

2

You use the word "fear" and Putin in the same sentence3

and I just want to point out that my job, one of my key

4

responsibilities is to manage escalation and make sure that5

we don't find ourselves in a nuclear contest in that is

6

avoidable.

7

And, again, there is nothing about Mr. Putin that we

8

fear.

9

rapidly deploying combat power to Europe and the eastern

10

flank.

11

provide assistance to Ukraine.

12

And you see the kinds of things that we have done in

And what we have done, and continue to do, is

And, you know, not a military issue, but the sanctions

13

that we have imposed on Mr. Putin are going to have a

14

significant impact on his economy for years to come.

15

Senator Cramer:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16

Chairman Reed:[Presiding.]

17

Thank you, Senator

Cramer.

18

Senator Rosen, please?

19

Senator Rosen:

Oh, there it is.

Thank you, Chairman

20

Reed, Ranking Member Inhofe, and thank you all for your21

service and for being here.

22

accessible you are to this committee and others.

23

Again, we appreciate how

General Milley, last month, I traveled to Poland and24

Germany as part of a bipartisan codel led by Senator Ernst,

25

several other members of this committee on the codel.

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had the privilege of meeting the U.S. forces, receiving

2

briefings from commanders on the situation in Ukraine,3

seeing firsthand, the security assistance and training NATO4is providing the Ukrainians.

5

And this trip:

horrific.

Horrific is too light of a6word, I guess, to use, but the horrific images of the7

Russian war crimes we have seen since, it really underscores8

for me that we can and we must do more to support Ukraine,9

defeat Volodymyr Putin, and defeat what he is doing.

10

So, President Zelenskyy continues to ask for greater

11

American support to close the skies, allow Ukraine to defend

12

itself.

13

specifically, might not make sense for Ukrainians' defensive

14

battle, but is there another aircraft they could fly that15

could be impactful, something else that could provide close

16

support?

17

I do understand the arguments as to why the MiG-29,

And I understand we are not in the classified setting.

18

Are there other forms of lethal assistance you could talk19

about here that might help Ukrainians defend themselves

20

against this brutality?

21

General Milley:

The most effective is that, which we

22

have been providing, which is air defense systems.

23

Russian Air Force has not even today established air

24superiority, let alone, air supremacy, which is one of the25

reasons why they have having great difficulty on the ground.

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2

So, the air superiority mission has not been achieved.
Why is that?

It is because of the survival of the air

3

defense systems, both, the -- that we have been providing

4Stingers and the like from other NATO countries, plus the5longer-range SAMs that have been provided and that they6

already had.

7

effective use of the airspace to the Russian military.

8Now, that is not to say Russian air is not getting

So, that system has denied the airspace,9

through.

10

are not being very effective, the Russian Air Force, and11

that is the reason, is because of the air defense.

12

They are on occasion, but for the most part, theySo, the best method right now, and the Ukrainians, I

13have talked to my Ukrainian counterpart every couple of

14days, they are very, very thankful, extraordinarily thankful

15

on the 60,000 anti-tank weapons, which is the second system

16that is really effective and the 25,000 anti-aircraft

17

weapons systems that have been sent by the United States and18

our allies and partners.

19

So, those are the two weapon systems that have proven20

most effective and the one for the air, in particular, the21best way to deny the Soviets -- or the Soviets -- the22airspace is through the air defense systems and that is what23

they are using.

24
25

Senator Rosen:

Well, given the heavy losses that theRussian military has suffered in the Ukraine, we know they

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are repositioning.

2

We are getting them the lethal support that they need.

3

How do you assess their ability as they are4

repositioning and trying to resupply their forces --Like you said, we are doing a good job.

5

General Milley:

The Russian ability?

6

Senator Rosen:

The Russian ability in their attack on

7

Eastern Ukraine as they begin to reposition themselves more

8

down towards the Donbas.

9General Milley:

The Russians have been struggling with10

their logistical resupplying:11

med evac, et cetera, they have been having a very, very

12

difficult time.

13

communications that they have, the ground lines of

14

communications are at risk to dismounted and mounted

15

Ukrainian Forces that are conducting ambushes along those16

lines of communications.

17

difficult time with logistics.

18

fuel, ammunition, food, also

Part of that is because the lines of

Senator Rosen:

So, they have really had aWell, and so, on the other side of

19

that, we know if they are repositioning, the Ukrainian20

military and ground forces there have to reposition as well.

21

So, looking ahead, do you think the Ukrainians have the22right equipment and logistics in place to defend against

23

this repositioning that Russia is, seems to be doing?

24
25

General Milley:

They are asking for, and they could

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looking around through allies and partners to get those2

types of weapon systems that require no training.

3

Of course, we have armor artillery, but it is not the4kind that they have used before and it would require months

5of training to get them into a U.S. system.

6

looking around, along with other countries and NATO, to help

7

them out in terms of building them up for armor and8

artillery.

So, we are

9

The fighting down in the Southeast, the terrain is10

different than it is in the north; it is much more open and11lends itself to armor, mechanized offensive operations on

12both sides.

13

for and that is what people are trying to help them out

14

with.

So, those are the systems that they are looking

15

Senator Rosen:

16

I want to submit my next questions for the record, but

Thank you.

17

they are really important.

18

Austin and Under Secretary McCord.

19

our junior enlisted troops.

20

their base allowance for housing, they are transitioning,21

the cost of housing is expensive, they are not getting

22

reimbursed in the way they should be.

23

for those on Creech that have to travel a far way to go to24

Las Vegas and go to work, and so I am going to submit those25

for the record.

They will be for Secretary
It is about housing for

They are not able to receive

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2

I see my time is up and I will look forward to speaking
with you about that.

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Chairman Reed:

2

Senator Tuberville, please?

3

Senator Tuberville:

4

Thank you for being here today, Secretary.

5

General Milley, good to see you last week.

6

that was a great change of command down in CENTCOM.

7

Thank you, Senator Rosen.

Thank you very much.

I thought

Secretary Austin, as we all know in the near future, we

8

are going to get the IG report on Space Command hopefully

9

moving to Huntsville.

10

a lot of great comments from you and Acting Secretary of the11

Air Force, Secretary of the Air Force Frank Kendall and, of

12

course, General James Dickinson.

And the Redstone Arsenal, we have got

All positive comments.

13

The IG report will come out in the future.

14

Any thoughts about the future?

15

Secretary Austin:

16

As you know, I will never comment on an IG, on a

Well, thanks, Senator.

17

subject that is under IG scrutiny.

18

comes out, we will make sure that we get, analyze it as

19

quickly as possible and take on the recommendations.

So, when that report

20

Senator Tuberville:

21

General Milley, last year's NDAA 2022, we got a jump-

Thank you.

22

start on the Aegis system in Guam.

23

continue that in the next few years.

24

while to get that done on a land base, which I think all of25

us agree we need.

Hopefully, we can
It is going to take a

And then we have an Iron Dome there.

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know, that is, to me, after visiting Guam a few months ago,2that would be kind of like swatting flies.

3
4

What do you think in the near future, we could do withthat Iron Dome?

5

General Milley:

Well, the Iron Dome is a very

6

effective system, but let me just take a step back for the7ballistic missile defense in the Pacific region, and Senator

8Hirono had asked about that earlier.

9

It is a layered system that starts, literally, over in

10Japan and comes through the entire Pacific and includes

11

radars and various missile systems that are arrayed

12

throughout to include Guam, Hawaii, Alaska, et cetera.

13

Specifically, to the Iron Dome, is it a great system and it

14

is a very accurate system and it has a very good track15

record, and there is all kinds of utility for it in a wide

16

variety of environments.

17

Dome.

So, I am a big fan of the Iron

18

Senator Tuberville:

19

Secretary Austin, extremely concerned about theThank you.

20

situation at the southwest border.

21

data, the Border Patrol has encountered more than 150,000

22

illegal immigrants a month for at least the past 12 months

23

and it is estimated that at least 500 illegal immigrants

24

that evaded the border just recently.

25

According to the latest

I am especially concerned about the trafficking of

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drugs, fentanyl, and the new drug most people haven't heard2of called another called "ISO," which is 20 times more

3

lethal than fentanyl coming across the border.

4

Post reported yesterday that you approved DHS' request for5

additional DOD at the border; is that accurate?

6

Secretary Austin:

The New YorkDHS did submit a request for our

7

support and as we have done in the past, we -- I approved8

the request.

9this endeavor.

10

where we can and where legally possible.

11

We, again, DHS is a lead federal agency in
We provide enabling support to DHS when and

Senator Tuberville:

Yeah.

It is obvious that we need12

help, especially if we do away with Title 42, which it looks

13

like it is coming.

14

Have you done any assessment of, or has the secretary

15

given you any assessment of about how many we would need16

down there if we did do something in your purview?

17

Secretary Austin:

Secretary Mayorkas, obviously,

18

Senator, will work up his requirements and his assessments

19

and provide those to the President and, you know, he

20

certainly has not provided that assessment to me.

21

Senator Tuberville:

Has he talked to you about it, you

22

know, maybe in the future?

23

Secretary Austin:

24
25

Not about future requirements.

He

has only talked to me about current requirements.
Senator Tuberville:

Yeah, okay.

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I want to pick up where Senator Ernst was at the end of2

her questioning, and anybody can answer this, but you know,

3

we are going to spend all this money on all this great4

equipment and we are all good with that, but it takes people5

to do that, and you all know that.

6

And I would love to see a better recruiting effort of7

spending some money, because we are fighting big tech.

8

are fighting a lot of areas now.

9

army, I think we have got to put a larger foot forward in

10

getting the best and the brightest young men and women in

11

whatever part of our military, and I think it is going to be

12

one of the most important things we do.

13

war or have a deterrent unless people really understand we

14

have got a fighting force that really is sold out on this15

country and wants to lay their life on the line.

16
17
18

We

Being an all-volunteer

We can't fight a

And just your thoughts, both of your all's thoughts onthat real quick.
Secretary Austin:I absolutely agree with you, sir.

19

We need to continue to invest in the quality of our force.

20

That is exactly what you have heard come from our Army

21

leadership, the Secretary and the Chief.

22

will hear coming from all of our Secretaries.

23

what we need, what has made us dominant and the best force

24

in the world, and what we will need, going forward, to25

continue to be the best force in the world.

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General Milley:

And I just want to assure you and2

everyone that is listening, that we have tremendous

3

standards and we have tremendous people in uniform today.

4

As we go forward, we have to take into account the5

future operating environment, the change in the character of

6

war.

7

So, our recruiting does need to be adjusted.

We need8

to up our game.

9

cases, look at different recruiting bases in order to get

10people for cyber and space and some of the other high-tech

11

things, because we are moving into, literally, a different

12

era in warfare and we are going to have to adjust our

13

recruiting to match that future.

14
15

We are going to have to look at, in some

Senator Tuberville:

Thank you.

Thank you for yourservice.

16

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

17

Chairman Reed:

18

Senator Kelly, please?

19

Senator Kelly:

20

And thank you to all of you for being here today.

21

Secretary Austin, I want to discuss PFAS contamination

Thank you, Senator Tuberville.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

22

near military facilities.

23

Arizona.

24

PFAS plumes in the groundwater aquifers and as we face25

worsening drought conditions along the Colorado River, theThis is a big challenge in

Both, the Phoenix and Tucson areas have growing

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groundwater, so groundwater will become a more important2

source of drinking water for our communities, including our3

military installations.

4

The Department of Defense has remedial investigations

5

into PFAS contamination in aquifers near both, Luke Air

6Force Base and Davis Monthan Air Force Base.

7

understand that these investigations can take time and rely

8

on scarce resources, affected communities that can't move

9

forward on permanent solutions with DOD until these10

investigations have concluded.

11

While, I

With conditions on the Colorado River degrading

12

rapidly, I mean, we are in a 1200-year drought, or the worst

13

drought in 1200 years and this one we are in has been going14

on for 20 years; it is significant.

15

we may need to rely on these groundwater aquifer sources as

16sources of drinking water, instead of getting all of our17

drinking water off of the river.

And I am worried that

18

So, Mr. Secretary, as the Department makes

19

determinations about which remedial investigations to20prioritize, how is it accounting for the needs of21

communities in regions that have a prolonged drought and22

because of that, has a higher likelihood of a future need of23

using the groundwater?

24

Secretary Austin:25

I would just like to emphasize to you that the healthThank you, Senator.

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and welfare of our troops, our families, and the people in2

the community are very, very important to me and I, and,3certainly, we will continue to focus on getting these4

assessments done and work with the appropriate regulatory5

agencies to make sure that we are doing the right things and6

we will move out as quickly as possible.

7

In terms of, you know, where we go, how we go forward,

8

I think what you have raised is an important issue.

9

are dependent upon that ground source of water, then that10

needs to go into the equation there in terms of what we

11

address first and that -- we are going to comply with the12regulations, you know, work with the regulatory commissions,13

but certainly take into account the things that you just14

raised.

If you15

Senator Kelly:

16

The fiscal year 2022 NDAA requires that DOD produce a

Well, thank you.

17

schedule.

18

consider the drought situation as that schedule is being

19

developed.

20

So, it would be really appreciated if you could

Secretary Austin, I also have a question on TRICARE

21

eligibility in our remaining time here.

22

increase in pay and increases in basic needs and DHS housing

23

allowance that I pushed for, this budget goes a long way to24

addressing the needs of our servicemembers.

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Congress did last year in addressing suicide and sexual2

assault in the military.

3

issues, however, I want to address one other disparity in4the military when it comes to pay and benefits and that5

relate to healthcare.

6

I commend your attention on theseI am concerned about the fact that military families

7

don't have the same healthcare coverage that Americans

8

enjoy.

9

I introduced some bipartisan legislation on this to bring

10

TRICARE plans in line with private insurance plans.

11

And what I am getting at is one specific thing.

And

My bill, the Healthcare Fairness for Military Families

12

Act would allow the children of servicemembers to stay on

13

their parents' insurance until they are 26.

14civilian life.

That exists in

It does not exist currently under TRICARE.

15

So, Mr. Secretary, can I get your commitment that you

16

will work with my office and this committee on efforts to17bring TRICARE in line with private insurance plans?

18

Secretary Austin:

19

Senator Kelly:

20

And I yield back the remainder of my time.

21

Chairman Reed:

22

Senator Hawley, please?

23

Senator Hawley:

24

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

25

General Milley, let me start with you, if I could.

Yes, Senator, you can.

Thank you.

Thank you, Senator Kelly.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Following Russia's first invasion of Ukraine back in

2

2014, Congress stood up the Ukraine Security Assistance3

Initiative, which I hope has been of some help the4

Ukrainians in the lead-up to this most recent invasion.

5

want to ask you about that, what we can draw from that, with6

regard to Taiwan and over in PACOM.

7I

If Congress were to enact a similar funding mechanism

8

for Taiwan, do you think that would help strengthen Taiwan's

9ability to defend itself against a potential invasion by

10

China?

11

General Milley:

I do, yes.

12

Senator Hawley:

And from a military perspective, is it

13

fair to say that strengthening Taiwan's defenses would help

14

bolster deterrence against China, number one, but also15

reduce the operational risk to American forces, who might be16

called upon to help Taiwan in the event of an invasion?

17

General Milley:

Absolutely, yes.

18

Senator Hawley:This is, I agree with you and thank19

you for those comments, this is why I think it is important20

to take that action right now and not to wait and get behind21

the 8 ball.

22

establish the Taiwan Security Assistance Initiative, modeled23

on what we did in Ukraine those years ago and I think, I

24

hope the committee will take it up.

25

important initiative.

I introduced the Arm Taiwan Act, which would

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Mr. Secretary, if I could switch to you, Secretary

2

Austin.

3

wrote, prior to her confirmation, I am going to quote her

4here so I get it right, that deterrence by denial should be

5prioritized when it comes to China and Taiwan, in

6

particular, and she went on, deterrence by cost imposition7

can complement, but shouldn't supplant deterrence by denial

8

when it comes to deterring China.

9

The Assistant Secretary for Defense Mara Karlin

And Assistant Secretary of Defense Eli Ratner had said

10

something similar.

11

pacing challenge, the Taiwan is the pacing scenario and that12

is driven by a strategy of denial.

13

Okay.

He told the committee, with China as theWith that setup, here is my question to you.

14

When it comes to the 2022 NDS and the NDS priorities, can15

you --and I am aware we are in an unclassified setting

16

here --

but could you, can you tell us that we will see in17

the unclassified summary of the NDS, a commitment to18

deterrence by denial, especially when it comes to China and

19

Taiwan?

20

Secretary Austin:

Our defense strategy accounts for21

the things that you just highlighted, Senator, which is why

22both of my Assistant Secretaries have highlighted that.

23

But, yeah, that is in the strategy and we will make24

sure that the, you know, our unclassified version of the25

strategy appropriately reflects what is in the strategy.

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Senator Hawley:Good.

So, just to make sure I

2

understand, when you say it is in the strategy, you mean

3

deterring --4Secretary Austin:

It is accounted for in the strategy.

5

Senator Hawley:

deterring by denial, deterrence by--

6

denial, when it comes to China and Taiwan is in the7strategy.

Have I got that right?

8

Secretary Austin:

9

And then I can entertain your other questions in theThat is right.

10classified setting.

11

Senator Hawley:

12

But just to close the loop on this, you said we would

13

see that reflected in the unclassified summary when that is

14

made available?

15

Great.

Secretary Austin:

Fair enough.

What I said was you will see the16

unclassified summary reflect what is in the classified

17

summary.

18

Senator Hawley:

19

Secretary Austin:

20

Okay.
We need to be mindful of what istransportable, what we can move to the unclassified section.

21

Senator Hawley:

22

Just staying on the same here, Assistant Secretary

Okay.

Good.

23

Ratner has also testified that Taiwan is the pacing

24

scenario.

25

Secretary, I think.

I think you have testified to that effect, Mr.
I know that General Milley has.

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2

Secretary Austin:

I said that China was the pacing

challenge.

3

Senator Hawley:4

I think General Milley had said that the Taiwan

5

scenario, the fait accompli scenario was the pacing

6

scenario.

7

to put words in your mouth, you correct me.

Okay.

Great.

If I am wrong about that, General, I don't want8

I know that Dr. Ratner has, so let's stick on that.

9

General Milley:

I said that before.

10

Senator Hawley:

Go ahead, General.

11

General Milley:

And I have said that before, and that12is the scenario, that is one of the scenarios that we use

13

for force development and so on and so forth --14

Senator Hawley:

Thank you.

15

General Milley:-- but it is clearly the most16

important one.

17

Senator Hawley:

18

So, here is my question, then, to you, Mr. Secretary.

19

Will we see that, the Taiwan scenario, the danger of a fait

20

accompli, will we see that in the unclassified summary of21

the 2022 NDS?

22

Thank you.

Secretary Austin:

Again, I will just say that the23

unclassified summary will reflect what is in the National

24

Defense Strategy.

25

commit to a specific wording at this point.

In terms of specific wording, I won't

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Senator Hawley:

Could you, could I get you to commit

2

to this, would you echo what General Milley just said and3that I assume your Assistant Secretaries reflect your views,

4but --

5

Secretary Austin:

6

Senator Hawley:

That is exactly right; they do.
Okay.

So, could you tell me in your7

own words, though, Mr. Secretary, I mean, is it -- let me8

ask you this way.

9

mouth, so let me ask you, is it your view that the Taiwan

10fait accompli scenario is the pacing scenario, just as China

11

is the pacing threat; is that fair to say?

12
13
14

I don't want to put the words in your

Secretary Austin:

It is a pacing scenario and I would

say that our policy, our China policy has not changed.
Senator Hawley:

My time has expired.

I will have a

15

few more follow-up questions and hopefully also in the

16classified setting.

17

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

18

Chairman Reed:

19

Senator Peters, please?

20

Senator Peters:

21

And, gentlemen, thank you for being here today.

22

I understand that as part of the U.S. deterrence, the23measures up to and after the invasion of Ukraine, there are24

now three U.S. armor brigades forward-deployed in Europe.

25

That is the most since the early 2000s, when the U.S.

Thank you, Senator Hawley.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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made a strategic decision to permanently move its heavy

2armored forces out of Europe and bring them back to the3United States.

4

Recently, Army senior leaders have said that the strain

5on the Army's 11 active-duty armored brigades, ABCTs, is at

6

a high point and noting that the rotational units basically

7

need a 3:1 rotation, a ratio to avoid excessive operational8

tempo and that 11 active ABCTs falls short of a sustainable9

ratio.

10

I also note that while Congress has consistently

11

provided funding for at least one brigade of tanks each12

funding cycle, only three U.S. Army brigades have been

13

fielded, the most modern Abrams tanks, including one brigade

14

set in Army preposition stock in Germany, that is now being

15

forward-deployed to Poland.

16

So, my question for you, Secretary Austin, do you think

17

that we need more armored forces now than we did last year,18

as this budget was being developed both, in terms of those19

armored brigades forward-deployed to Europe and those which20

we could rotate worldwide?

21

Secretary Austin:

22

I truly believe that we have what we need currently.

23

As we figure out the future footprint in NATO, especially on

24

the eastern flank, if we have additional requirements, then,25

certainly, we will come back and ask for additional

Thank you, Senator.

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2

resources.
I would remind you that we have over 100,000 troops in3

either stationed in Europe or deployed to Europe or

4operating in Europe's waters and so we have a robust

5

capability there now.

6

recently, as you heard me say, Senator, because of what you

7

did earlier, to provide us with the resources and EDI.

8

saw that armored brigade combat team deploy rapidly from

9

Fort Stewart, fall in on pre-positioned equipment, and then10

rapidly move to Germany.

11

because of EDI.

12

along the Eastern flank because of the resources that you

13

provided us, as well.

We were able to do what we did

You

And, again, that was all possible

We have been able to train heel-to-toe

14

So, as we do our analysis going forward, if we need15

additional resources, I will work with the Secretary of the16

Army and the Chief of Staff of the Army, the Chairman, and17come back and ask for more resources if we need them.

18

Senator Peters:

19

General Milley, do you think the up tempo on the 11

Great, thank you.

20

ABCTs that we have will be sustainable over the long-term,

21

given Russia's apparent expansionist goals in Europe?

22

General Milley:

Senator, I think that with 11, you

23

know, the 3:1 ratio, you got three over there.

24

you nine, so you need armored brigades, plus we have one

25

rotating back and forth to the fence line.

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So, I think it

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is about right, but I will go back to General McConville,2

the chief staff of the Army, to make sure that my analysis

3

is correct and I will get you a better answer.

4

If there is some sort of stress on the up tempo of the5armored force, that hasn't been brought up to me yet,6

specific to this contingency.

7

Now, long-haul, that depends on how long the long-haul

8

is and that is not known right now.

9

that and we are going to adjust as we go here.

We are taking a look at

10

Senator Peters:

Right.

11

General Milley:

Thank you.

12

Senator Peters:

And General Milley, the recently

13

released National Defense Strategy describes China as,

14

quote, our most consequential strategic competitor and the15pacing challenge for the Department, end of quote.

16

certainly, the Department will have to bring the full might17of our Joint Force to bear in order to compete with this18

challenge.

19

And,

Now INDOPACOM is a maritime domain, so certainly, the20role of the Navy and the Marine Corps is very clear, as well21

as the Air Force and Space Force will also play a vital

22

role.

23

But I would like your thoughts as Chairman of the Joint

24

Chiefs of Staff and a decorated Army officer, I would like25

to hear your view as to the role of the Army in the Indo-

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2

Pacific.
General Milley:

The Army has a very important role in3

the Indo-Pacific.

4

War II, there was, I think, 15 or 20 divisions of the Army

5

and Marines in the Indo-Pacific.

6

the United States that we fought in the Indo-Pacific with

7

Vietnam, Korea, and the World War II Pacific campaigns.

8

the ground forces have a very Gant role, but I would say

9that in any sort of future conflict, if there was one,10

hopefully, there will never be one with China, my estimate

11

is that the maritime forces and the naval forces will be the12

predominate player but the military forces that are on the13

ground, Army special forces, Marine forces, and Army ground14

forces will be really significant, especially in areas like15

air defense, long-range fires, precision fires, and Special

16

Operations.

17And, you know, just to go back to World

Our largest land wars ofSo

In addition to that, the amphibious forces of the

18

Marines will be key.

19

significant role for ground forces in the Pacific, but the20

predominance will likely be maritime or Air Forces.

21
22

Senator Peters:

So, there is a very important, very

[Presiding.]

Great.

Thank you,

General Milley.

23

Senator Scott, you are recognized for your questions.

24

Senator Scott:25

I thank each of you for being here.

Thank you, Senator Peters.

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your hard work.

2

to serve.

3

probably one of the most difficult times to serve with all

4of our enemies.

5

I know this is a very, this is a tough time

I mean, this is probably, in my lifetime, this is

I share the concerns of the ranking member and many of6

my colleagues in the Senate that President Biden's budget

7

request does not reflect our current defense needs.

8

many years of underspending, we recently began to grow the9

defense budget in line with the threats we face,10

particularly, Communist China.

After

11

So, just last year, we had to increase the President's

12budget by more than $25 billion and for months now, owe have13

been urging the administration to increase our defense

14

spending so we can meet our modernization needs, deter and,15

if needed, defeat our enemies and overcome the impact of the16

terrible inflation this administration has caused with17

reckless spending.

18

So, we are living in some of the most difficult times

19since the Cold War with Communist China, Russia, Iran, North

20

Korea, reflecting their muscles, increasing their hostility

21

to us and our allies, but you wouldn't know it, based on

22

this budget request.

23

the President didn't request a budget that would do a better24

job of putting us in a position that we can deter our25

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2

their needs.
I was disappointed the administration wants to3

decommission 24 ships and weaken our Navy's power and4capabilities.

5

enough.

6

I know the administration has said this isGeneral Milley, I think you have previously stated that

7

if you combine Communist China and Russia, that they spend

8

more than the U.S. does now.

9

percent increase for 2022 and I think you just testified to10

the House that this budget assumes an inflation rate of 2.2

11

percent, but we all know it is 8 percent-plus right now.

12

Beijing just announced a 7.1

All the manufacturers I talk to, you know, are saying

13

it is actually more than that.

14

go up and go down, this, I don't think the budget is clearly15

enough and it doesn't seem to me that you think it is16

enough.

17

So, while inflations could

So, tell me, how does this happen?

I mean, you seem18

pretty persuasive.

19

with a budget that doesn't stay up with inflation and20

doesn't do a lot more to deter our enemies, especially

21

Communist China?

So, how does this happen that we end up

22

General Milley:

23

First, on the inflation piece, I would ask that Mr.

Well, let me say a couple of things.

24

McCord talk about the details and how they did the25

calculations, et cetera.

But I fully support this budget.

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Seven hundred and seventy-three billion dollars is a2

lot of money and it is our duty, those of us in uniform, to3

make every cent of those dollars count and to deliver for4

the nation, a force that is capable of defending it.

5

And I think, as I said in my opening statement, we can6do that on 773.

7

of risk and there is always elements to mitigate, but we8

have to focus on the future.

9

have to focus on modernization.

10

Having said that, there is always elements

This budget does that.

We

This budget does that.

We put more money in research and development

11

intentionally in this budget than has ever been done in any

12defense budget and we have to focus on the pacing threat of

13

China with the acute threat, as we call it, with Russia.

14

It is very significant.

There are areas of risk.

We

15

recognize those areas of risk.

16budget will allow us to move forward and take the next steps

17

towards protecting the United States.

18

Senator Scott:

But I do think that thisCould I ask each of you, what, how

19

comfortable are you that this budget is going to do enough20

to deter Communist China and why do you think, what in the21budget, and what are the things that we are doing that you

22

think are going to be the key things that are going to deter

23

Communist China from trying to expand, first, I guess, would

24

be into Taiwan?

25

Do you want to start, Secretary Austin?

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Secretary Austin:

2

I think when we look at the challenge of China, we

3

consider China to be a now and forever problem, in terms of

4a challenge.

5

help keep us ready, capable, and dominant today, but also

6

recognizing that the challenge of China will evolve over7

time, investing now in those capabilities that will be

8

relevant down the road, as well.

9

invest in technology in this budget.

10

invest in space capabilities, cyberspace, undersea

11

capabilities.

12

China set, but also provides us great capability, with13

respect to the acute threat that we are experiencing right14

now and that is Russia.

15

General Milley:

Thanks, Senator.

And so, we want to invest in those things that

So, you have seen us
You have seen us

All those things are focused on not only theAnd, Senator, I would just add, with16

respect to deterring China and Taiwan, I think Senator

17

Hawley hit it right on the head.

18

is done by the Taiwanese.

19

is being done in Ukraine, for example, and I think there are20

a lot of lessons that are coming out of the Ukraine that21

China is taking very, very seriously.

The best defense of Taiwan

We can certainly help them.

This

22

Crossing the Taiwan straits and conducting an

23amphibious and/or air assault on the island of Taiwan and24

the city of Taipei with the millions upon millions of people

25

there, the mountainous terrain of Taiwan.

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defensible island, we just need to help the Taiwanese defend

2

it a little bit better and we can do that.

3

But that is the best deterrent, is to make sure that4

deterrent by denial, to make sure that the Chinese know that5

if they were to attack Taiwan, it is a very, very difficult

6

objective to take.

7

Senator Scott:8

I know this is a very difficult time.

Thank you to each of you.
I mean, in my9lifetime, I don't think we have ever had a threat like we10have now with what Putin is doing and what Xi says he is11

going do, so thank you for what you are doing.

12
13
14

Senator Duckworth:[Presiding.]

Thank you, Senator

Scott.
And the chairman is still voting, so I get to recognize

15

myself.

16

each of our witnesses for your service and commitment to our

17national security.

18

strength, as well as pride and humility.

19

make our military the most capable, most combat-credible

20

force in the world.

21

Serving is truly a selfless act and I want to thankThat service comes with honor and
These attributes

You already know this.

But to ensure that this continues long into the future,22

we must take care of the military's most important assets:23

our people.

24
25

Each of you have spoken to this.

As leaders, we must remove barriers our military
members face in supporting their families as well.

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an important readiness issue.

2

safe and healthy relieves a burden on servicemembers so that3

they can better focus on the mission and, if necessary,

4fight for the safety of others.

Knowing that their family is

5

That is why I hope the Department will work with me to

6

finally solve a critical issue facing our men and women in

7

uniform, along with their families, and that is food8

insecurity.

9

report an increased demand for support during the pandemic.

10

And Secretary Austin, I appreciate your leadership in

Advocacy groups that serve military families

11

issuing guidance to the DOD late last year to begin

12

addressing military hunger challenges; however, despite your13

leadership, there appears to be a hesitation to fully engage

14

on this pressing, readiness issue Department-wide.

15

And we are still hearing heartbreaking stories of less-16

senior members of the military struggling to pay their17bills, to put good, quality food on the table for their18

families.

19

still met in some quarters with skepticism and denial that20

the problem even exists.

They are still met, you know, these stories are21

I think that is why it is vital that the DOD fulfills

22

its statutory mandate under the fiscal year 2020 NDAA and23

provide Congress with a comprehensive report examining food24

and securities challenges experienced by servicemembers and25

military families.

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Secretary Austin, will you commit to me that you will

2

deliver the DOD study on food and security in the military

3by the end of this month, and if you can't do it by the end

4of this month, when can you deliver it?

5
67

Secretary Austin:

We will deliver it as quickly as we

possibly can.
And, Senator, let me thank you for your leadership in

8that area.

9

issue of economic insecurity across the board.

10

you see the pay raise, the elevation of BAH, and some other11

things.

You know, I have really set out to tackle theThat is why

12And, certainly, I appreciate the support that you are

13

giving us and I know you will continue to give us, but we

14

will move out and get you the report as quickly as possible.

15

Senator Duckworth:16

I have no question of the commitment of each of the17witnesses here today to making sure that we address this18

issue.

19

Thank you.

That has not been the problem.

The issue that I have is that there is still resistance20

across the Department.

21

you first addressed this issue last November, you tasked the22

Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness to23

deliver a strategy and implementation roadmap to strengthen

24food security within the force.

25

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implementation roadmap with Congress once it is developed to2

help us better understand how DOD is addressed military3

hunger?

4

Secretary Austin:

I will, Senator.

5

Senator Duckworth:Thank you.

6

And last year, I led the bipartisan effort to authorize

7

a new basic needs allowance under fiscal year 2022 NDAA and8

I am encouraged that the services are planning to provide

9

this new assistance in their annual budgets; however,10

questions still remain on how the Department will roll out

11this new allowance.

Thank you.

12

For example, Secretary Austin, the final text includes

13

a compromise that allows you to not count, so you have the14

discretion to not count BAH as income, when determining who

15

is eligible to receive the basic needs allowance.

16

additionally, families are going to need to opt-in to this,17

so they must understand how to opt-in to the food allowance,

18

which over the years, we have learned is often much easier19

said than done when it comes to program participation for20

anything you have to opt-in for.

21

And,

Secretary Austin, what is the status of developing an

22

implementing the basic needs allowance and can you share23

actions that the Department intends to take to ensure that24

all servicemembers are made aware of this new support and25

encouraged to apply, if eligible?

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Secretary Austin:Yeah.

As you may know, we are still2

working our way through this, but I will tell you, Senator,

3

that I am predisposed to making sure that we provide as many4

benefits to our troops and our family members as possible.

5

And so, as we work our way through this, we are going6

to make sure that it is streamlined so that it is easy for7people to understand what they need to do to qualify and we

8

are going to, again, I am predisposed to making sure that9

they get as much as they possibly can.

10

Senator Duckworth:11

Will you commit to using your discretion to not count12
13

Thank you.

BAH as income to the maximum extent possible?
Secretary Austin:

I will do everything I can that is

14

legally possible and feasible to give our troops greater

15

capability of greater resources.

16

Senator Duckworth:17

And with that, yield back.

18

Chairman Reed:

19

Thank you, General.

[Presiding.]

Thank you, Senator

Duckworth.

20

Senator Blackburn, please?

21

Senator Blackburn:22

Secretary Austin, why don't we make our intelligence

23
24
25

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

reports public?
Secretary Austin:

We share as much as we can from ourintel reports, but as you know, we have to be careful about

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protecting --2

Senator Blackburn:Yeah, would you agree --3Secretary Austin:-- sources and methods --4

Senator Blackburn:Right.

5

Secretary Austin:-- so that we don't lose capability.

6

Senator Blackburn:

And would you agree that giving our

7
8
9
10

adversaries access to our intel reports is a poor decision?
Secretary Austin:

Exactly.

I think that is somethingthat we need to absolutely work to avoid.
Senator Blackburn:Okay.

And so, then, why did senior

11

Biden official hold nearly half a dozen meetings with top

12

Chinese officials to give them information on Russian troop

13

movements?

14
15
16

Secretary Austin:

I don't know of, I don't haveinsights on any occurrences like that.
Senator Blackburn:

Okay.

So, it seems the Chinese

17

called up their comrades in Russia and sent Moscow the intel

18

that binder staffers provided them.

19

U.S. officials knew Beijing gave the intel to Moscow.

20
21
22
23

And it appears that

So, I would imagine you do not support giving Russia
our intelligence?
Secretary Austin:

I am unfamiliar with the issue thatyou raise.

24

Senator Blackburn:

Okay.

25

Secretary Austin:

But you are right, I do not support

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giving our adversaries --2

Senator Blackburn:All right.

General Milley, under3

what circumstances, if any, have you advised intelligence-4

sharing with Beijing?

5

General Milley:

6

Senator Blackburn:7

And given what we know now about how that subsequently

8

shared information, this intelligence went to Moscow, what

9

would you advise for similar scenarios going forward?

10
11

General Milley:

Zero.

Never.

Thank you.

I don't think you should give

intelligence to your adversary, period.

12

Senator Blackburn:13

What senior leader is ultimately responsible for thisOkay.

Thank you.

14

decision of intel-sharing; is it you?

15

Austin?

16it?

Is it Jake Sullivan?

Is it Secretary

Is it the President?

17

General Milley:18

couple of answers to that.

19Intelligence is responsible for all the intelligence20

agencies in the --My opinion is, well, I will give you a21

Senator Blackburn:22

General Milley:

23

Senator Blackburn:24

General Milley:25

Who is

One is the Director of National

National Intelligence.

DNI.
Okay.

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responsible for everything the Government does, the2

Executive Branch does.

3

And then each of us are responsible for within our4areas of responsibility.

5

Senator Blackburn:

6
7

Okay.

So, under what authorities

would we share our intelligence with Beijing?
General Milley:

I would ask that you ask these8questions of the DNI; however, my knowledge of the system is9that the President and/or the Director of National

10Intelligence or perhaps the director of the CIA or someone

11

like that does have authorities, but I don't know what those12

are, specifically --13

Senator Blackburn:

14

General Milley:15

answer with accuracy.

16
17
18
19
20

Okay.

-- and it is not something I can

Senator Blackburn:So, it is not a practice that you

approve of, but we do know that it has happened, correct?
General Milley:

I don't know that it has happened.

I

am not aware of what you are talking about, actually.
Senator Blackburn:Okay.

We have talked a good bit

21

about Afghanistan today, so did Biden's precipitous22

withdrawal from Afghanistan, which really fed perceptions of23

America in retreat, did that play a role in shaping Putin's

24

decision to invade Ukraine?

25

General Milley:

From the intelligence I have read, it

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is not clear.

2know that Putin had aims on Ukraine long before the end of3

the war in Afghanistan, in fact --I think it certainly is possible, but I also

4

Senator Blackburn:5

General Milley:

6

Senator Blackburn:7

General Milley:

8

They began to build up their forces in September and

9

October, so I think in order to do that, they would have had

10

to have the plans and approval long before September,

11

October.

12
13

Yeah.
So, he saw his opening, right?

Well, the forces were building up.

Senator Blackburn:

Okay.

They have a habit of moving

forward at the end of the Olympics.

14

General Milley:

15

Senator Blackburn:

16

2014.

17

move forward.

18

I think we all know that.

Yes.
They did it 2008.

They did it in

We were watching and the White House chose not to

I want to ask you, you have both failed, and this comes19

to each of you, to share with us the budget line items for20

diversity and inclusion initiatives and much less, any way

21

that you would tie those initiatives to warfighting, but

22public reporting has given us some insight into what is

23

being spent and how some of that money has been spent.

24

And Secretary Austin, earlier this year, there was a25

report that said the Department of Defense is studying the

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issue of allowing gender, non-binary people to serve in the2

military; is that true?

3

Secretary Austin:

I am supportive of allowing any

4person that is eligible and can meet the qualifications to5serve their country.

6
7

Senator Blackburn:

And who is involved in this study?

Our uniformed military personnel involved?

8

Secretary Austin:

I can't speak to, at this point, who

9

was involved in any of the studies that we have ongoing,10

just off the top of my head.

11

question for the record.

12

Senator Blackburn:But I will certainly take the

And what will the living

13

arrangements be made for non-binary servicemembers?

14

all going to come back to us and ask for an appropriation

15

for housing?

16

Secretary Austin:

Are you

Senator, any study that we do, it

17will make, certainly be transparent and make it available to

18

you.

19

Senator Blackburn:

And what about gender-fluid20

individuals, how will you handle a servicemember who

21

identifies as male on some days and female on other days, or22

polygender individuals?

23

Secretary Austin:

I don't care to speculate on, you

24

know, what we are going to ask you for or what we are going25

to -- how we are going to qualify people.

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Again, some of this is in litigation in various states

2and, you know, I think it is best to take your question for3

the record.

4

Senator Blackburn:5

Chairman, that I will submit for the record.

6

Chairman Reed:

7

Senator Blackburn:8

some questions on hypersonics.

9[The information follows:]

10[COMMITTEE INSERT]

Okay.

I have some questions, Mr.

Thank you, Senator.
But Secretary Austin, I do have

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Chairman Reed:

We will be going, immediately, Senator

2Blackburn into a classified session and those questions, I

3think, would be answered there.

4

Gentlemen, let me thank you for your testimony.

We

5will adjourn the open hearing and reconstitute the committee

6in SV-217 at 12:30.

7
8
9

And at this point, I will adjourn the open session andjoin you at 2:30 at SV-217, SVC-217.

Thank you.

[Whereupon, at 12:18 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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