Art Activities as the Collective Interview with
Ade Darmawan
Hattori Hiroyuki, Ade Darmawan

Over the course of coming into contact with many collectives in Asia, I became
interested in how they enhance their creativity by forming groups, and then makesocietal interventions. Ade Darmawan established the artist collective ruangrupa
in 1998 and has continued to develop its activities over more than two decades.
By bringing together people with different skills and ideas, ruangrupa builds a
multilayered network across Jakarta, Southeast Asia, and worldwide in ways
impossible for individuals to accomplish. While rooted firmly in the city ofJakarta, it accesses channels in various directions, fostering a cycle that feeds
back into the members’ own local region. In this interview, Ade discusses thenotion of “collectivism” that ruangrupa has recently advocated.

* Excerpt from the English translation of the interview with Ade Darmawan in Reflection on
Cosmo-Eggs at the Japan Pavilion at la Biennale di Venezia 2019 published by torch press,
2020, Japan.
* The interview was translated from Japanese to English by Robert Zetzsche, and theintroduction was translated by William Andrews.

Guest: Ade Darmawan (member of ruangrupa)
Interviewer: Hattori Hiroyuki
Interpreter (Indonesia- Japanese): Hirota Midori (Researcher of Indonesian art)
Date of interview: February 21, 2020

Members of ruangrupa
Courtesy of Jin Panji

The shortcomings of the exhibition format
Hattori Hiroyuki: What I want to ask you about today is something you’ve been
doing for a long time: the curation of collective projects, in particular theexhibition “Condition Report: Sindikat Campursari” (2017, at Gudang Sarinah
Ekosistem in Jakarta Selatan). This exhibition was part of a series called“Condition Report[1],” organized by the Japan Foundation Asia Center in four
cities in Southeas Asia: Jakarta, Manila, Kuala Lumpur, and Bangkok. In each city,
a local curator and a curator from Japan worked together to create and co-curate
an exhibition. You took part in the Jakarta edition, whereas I was the Japanesecurator for the Kuala Lumpur exhibition. Together with your team in Jakarta,
following the idea of “collectivism” you created works in the form of a collectives
that involved the curators and the participating artists. After surveying theactivitie of collectives in Indonesia’s largest cities, you brought together groups
and individuals who share in the idea of collective creation and made a projectfocused on the production process. It was a series of practices as if you created──as if the exhibition itself could work

the very processes of realizing the project
as nothing else but a part of the project.

1. A three-year collaborative project aiming to help young curators gain experience andcreate networks. Following workshops and discussions, the participating 21 curators fromnine countries were divided into four groups that each implemented a large-scale exhibition
in a different city. The following year, the young curators who participated in the collaborative
exhibitions used their experiences to realize new exhibitions held in various regions.
(For more information: The Japan Foundation Asia Center
Condition Reporthttps://jfac.jp/culture/projects/condition-report)──After “Condition Report” finished, the Japan Foundation Asia Center published aCurators’ Book with essays by each participating curator. In your essay, you wrotethat it is nearly impossible to transfer the entirety of experiences and events ofcollective processes into the space of an exhibition, given the complexity
involved. You also wrote that it is not possible for such exhibitions to realize
actual collective works, and that they instead become mere introductions of thecollective’s activities or serve as an archive of related artifacts[2]. I became
curious if you were actually able to realize collective works as part of the“Sindikat Campursari” project.

2. Ade Darmawan, “Curating, Collective, and Conversation, The Japan Foundation Asia Center
Art Studeis Vol.4 Curators’Book “Condition Report: Shifting Perspective in Asia” (Tokyo: The
Japan Foundation Asia Center, 2018) p.58

“Cosmo-Eggs”, a project I’ve helped create and realize in the form of a collective,
has something in common with “Sindikat Campursari.” The project placed an
artist, a composer, an anthropologist, and an architect (as well as myself as thecurator) in the form of a temporary collective. After passing the competition stageof the Venice Biennale, we spent a year researching and field-working, realizing
the exhibition after countless conversations. The processes of the project were
extremely important. However, we did not introduce the processes themselves at
all in the exhibition, which is a multi-layered installation that focuses on theexperience of the audience. Instead, we treated the exhibition catalogue as a kindof blueprint of the project and assembled it using almost all the materials andprocesses that went into the creation of the project. If you follow the processes
collected in the book, you will be able to re-experience the exhibition. In otherwords, we made an open-source record of the exhibition and materialized its
processes in the form of the book.

The catalogue for “Sindikat Campursari” records everything in the form of a──from the project’s beginning to the processes of forming a team, as welldiary

as records about when and where each artists and collective did their researchand the processes involved in realizing the exhibition. I see some overlap in ourformats as well as our values.

Research for “Sindikat Campursari”(2016)

Ade Darmawan: I was thinking about the many aspects that go into curating acollective at the time. It mostly concerned ruangrupa

──I thought about thechallenges involved in transferring, or translating, the practices of the collective
into an exhibition.

There’s something that I struggle with in curatorial practice and creating an
exhibition. It’s the fact that much is lost when you show collective practice insome form as an exhibition. Say we were going to create an exhibition. Let’s use
the Jatiwangi Art Factory[3] as an example. They engage with various communities
to develop projects and already employ very complex forms of artistic practice.
Even compared to the production of exhibitions, they’re very complex. But once
you translate that into an exhibition, the experiences, the atmosphere, thesensations and sensualities, the smells and sounds, the context and thecomplexities that were part of the process──all of that disappears. When theactivities of ruangrupa, the Jatiwangi Art Factory, or any other collective areturned into an exhibition, you tend to end up with a mere reduction. As a result,the exhibition becomes a representation of the practice, which means losing
many interesting things. When doing “Sindikat Campursari,” I thought about what
could be done to turn the exhibition itself into a conversation. In this way, I
thought, the functional, sensual, and spatial contexts could perhaps be saved. I
wondered how an exhibition could become presentation instead of mere
representation.

3. An art project in the town of Jatiwangi on the outskirts of West Java. Jatiwangi is an
important center of roof tile manufacturing, and many of residents living near the art projectworked in roof tile factories. The artists actively embraced this part of the local culture, andmany projects were realized with the involvement of the factory workers.

I presented my plan for “Sindikat Campursari” in a meeting with all the curators
who participated in “Condition Report[4].” The documents I used for mypresentation were quite unusual, I think. The slideshow consisted exclusively ofthe e-mail conversations I had with my co-curator, Iida Shihoko [laughing]. It was
just me suggesting the theme of collectivism to Iida, and our back-and-forthabout the project, the exhibition, and the possibilities we had.

4. Several months after Condition Report had begun, the curator duos presented plans for theexhibitions held in each city and assigned young curators to collaborate with them. This
anecdote refers to the team presentation given by Ade Darmawan and Iida Shihoko.

The conversation between Ade and Iida excerpted from the catalogue of “SindikatCampursari”

I think curators tend to be placed in a powerful, almost elite-like position. All thedecision-making power lies with the curator. That’s why I presented theconversation between me and my co-curator Iida Shihoko in my slides, us
discussing the details of the project in a dialogue, in a flat relationship. We
discussed where the project could go and what we could do, even though manythings were still unknown or undecided. After that, Iida and I decided on thecontents of the exhibition together with the young curators who had become partof the team. We traveled to many cities in Indonesia, not just Jakarta, we met andconversed with artists and collectives, and we shared our experiences. To tell you
the truth, at that point I didn’t want there to be an exhibition at all. [laughing]

New methods of conveying art
Hattori: What do you mean?

Ade: Because I didn’t want to turn such conversations into an exhibition. But inthe end we had to present them in the form of an exhibition regardless. I have nointerest in producing exhibitions that seem as if the production of the exhibition
was the goal all along. I believe an exhibition should be one of many possible
forms of such translation.

I think the problem today is that the exhibition is the one method people think ofwhen it comes to conveying art, creating artistic experiences, and sharing themwith an audience. But it should not be the only method available, and I believe inthe possibility of exploring other ways as well.

That is why I didn’t want an exhibition as the goal for “Sindikat Campursari.” But if
there had to be an exhibition regardless, I thought it should be created based onwhat is needed to adequately translate the artistic experiences or statements. We
converse and discuss a lot, but the existence of an exhibition convinces you that
there is one correct form for all these elements. I don’t think there is. It is
possible for the audience, for the public, to experience a variety of things withdifferent methods.

Or take a look at the exhibition catalogue──it is the same way now as it wasages ago. It is always the same. But it would be better if there were different ways
available in which people could understand or experience something. For the“Sindikat Campursari” catalogue, we decided to create something akin to a diary,in which we recorded our processes and shared our experiences.

Exhibition view of “Sindikat Campursari” (2017)

I am deeply bored by the fact that most exhibitions these days follow a standard
pattern. They’re extremely cold exhibitions, with no sensuality. They lacksomething vital. The entire contemporary art industry has become like that. Take
the Biennale as an example, and assume I’ve been invited as an artist. I arrive twodays before the opening, and all the artworks are already in place. The day after
the opening ceremony, I’m already on my way home. How should I put it… it iscompletely inhumane. It feels as if I’ve been turned into an object. I always
become doubtful in those situations. Whose exhibition is it, after all? [laughing]

Everything [about the Biennale] is extremely systematic. Providing the audience
with a good exhibition takes top priority, before everything else. It is exploitativeof the artists. And it’s strange, too──an art show without sensuality, inhumane

and good for no one. Contemporary art itself has become authoritative; it’s
nothing but a hierarchical industry.

The Jakarta Biennale, in which I was involved as a director, took a form ofcollaboration in which the artists helped each other. As a result, the exhibitions
and events of the Biennale became places of social discussion, exchange, andinteraction. mixrice, two artists from South Korea, told me that South Korea used
to be like this in the past, but it has all disappeared now. They almost cried when
they left Jakarta – that’s how much they had been moved by this curatorial
approach.

When you create a project or an exhibition with social elements, the difficulties
grow as you increase the scale, of course. Interestingly, thanks to ourcharacteristic methods, curators have begun to understand how they can invite
ruangrupa. [laughing] I think the best way would be to invite us, give us a location,a site or a space, and let us work freely. That’s why I was so interested when you
invited us to the Aichi Triennale in 2016[5]. At that time, we were thinking about
how we could transform the presentation into an occupation. We thought thatoccupation could be one possible way of presenting the existence of complex
entities and platforms like events or collectives.

5. ruangrupa participated in the Aichi Triennale 2016 (curated by Hattori Hiroyuki) as artists
and implemented a project called Ruru Gakko [lit. “Ruru School”].

Hattori: International art exhibitions often ask artists to present their works in a
way that embodies the exhibition’s concept or theme, or the theme integrates theartworks in some way. But on the other hand, that also means the theme and thesite of the exhibition may be newly interpreted and even taken over. Is that what
you mean? Could you explain the idea of occupation a little bit?

Ade: It’s like the agricultural technique of grafting. By grafting a new tree onto an
old one, you create a hybrid plant. The type of occupation we have in mind does
not take over the established system as is. We graft a new system onto theexisting one, and this process creates something new. But we’re still in theexperimental phase. [laughing]

I am actually thinking about this same thing for the upcoming documenta. At
previous documentas, sculptures were often placed in public spaces [by theorganizers or curators]. We are thinking about how we can plant a new system
into this type of soil without ignoring the legacy we’ve inherited from the past.

Hattori: I see. Instead of ignoring or denying an existing system, you keep it alive
and add something to it. This is what you mean “grafting.”

Curating collective practice
Hattori: Another thing I found very interesting about “Sindikat Campursari” isseeing curators and artists creating together, since they were usually considered
as separate. I think this is related to your unique sense of problem awareness. In
the Curators’ Book, you wrote about what curating collective practices means[6].
You wrote that, in the end, it probably means “creating together.”

6. Ade Darmawan, ibid., p.58.

As you said earlier, when creating in a collective, the kind of processes you go
through and the conversations you have are extremely important. At theexhibition, though, they mostly become a document-like assemblage of records,
and the initial liveliness and excitement of these actions are lost. The audienceoften views the catalogue only after everything has already finished, as some kind──as if it was a deliverable or some kind of historicalof produced object

document. On the other hand, curators have the desire to provide some kind ofsummary, or to leave a legacy. I don’t think this is compatible with creating
projects as a collective. That is something I took away from reading your text. And
I find it very interesting that people decided to work and create together, despite
their different positions, in order to present a way of collective practice.

Ade: Yes, exactly. When presenting a project’s processes at an exhibition, theyoften become extremely archive-like in nature. Such archival or document-likeexhibitions instantly disturb the audience’s ability to feel anything. It is because in
the form of an archive or record, the original atmosphere is lost and distancefrom the original is created. Something I found interesting about “SindikatCampursari” is that each artist became more open as they kept engaging inconversations. They also revealed their own shortcomings and weak spots, and I
showed my respect for their artistic attitude. All the decisions people made after
these conversations were very organic instead of in isolation. Neither were theyconsciously designed, nor did they change from one moment to the next. That’s
what I found interesting about them.

Hattori: Do you think curating collective practices is actually possible? And if yes,in what way?

Ade: First, I think it is important to put the curator in a non-conventional position.
The curator should not be the center of the project but like a moderator or acatalyst. The curator should make sure the conversations between members or
between people inside and outside the collective go smoothly. I think it ispossible if the exhibition features a presentation-like format, with collaborativeand horizontal relationships, like with my projects. The structure becomes moreorganic, and it is easier to show its nature as a collective.

Collective practice is based on a wealth of ideals: sharing, caring, collaborationand tolerance, for example. That’s why collective practice brings out so many
values, ethics and morals. The fact that ethics and philosophy are also at playwhen collaborating with collectives is quite interesting. Let’s call it ethicalphilosophy.

Method rather than theme
Ade: The fact that everyone’s ethics form the foundation for the collective isimportant. There cannot be a collective without an ethical base.

Let me explain it another way. As I see it, a collective and its practices are not
only of an aesthetic nature; they also include an ethical side. At the heart of thecollective lie collaboration, solidarity, mutual sharing. These are not aestheticalbut important, ethical values. What’s truly necessary when a collective
collaborates is not a theme but a method and collective values.

The format we created for “Sindikat Campursari” was a “conversation,” a very──nongkron , sharing, caring, solidarity, lending an ear

Indonesian thing, really[7]

to each other’s stories. The power structure is completely horizontal. You could
say it’s a method based on the ethics of coming together as a collective.

7. In Ade’s words, nongkrong means “spending time to come together in a friendly andcomfortable atmosphere with old and new friends, or in a small group brought together by
space and time due to proximity of location or a common background. It means sharing
stories, ideas, problems, and sometimes solutions. There is a sense of mutuality and taking
care of each other in the aimless conversations involved.” (from Condition Report: Shifting
Perspectives in Asia – Curators' Book, p. 58)

Hattori: The equality and solidarity that you engage with are also themes often
picked for many international art exhibitions and biennales. Artworks are picked
and presented to the audience based on these themes. But what ruangrupa tries
to do as an Indonesian collective clearly involves a different method. That’s why I
find it very interesting that you mentioned the word method.

Personally, I think we’ve reached the limits of curators writing up statements andpresenting them to an audience. We’ll have to find very different methodologies,
or maybe create places for sharing and thinking together. I have doubts that an
exhibition would be an effective method for that situation. But I still believe there
is a necessity to create exhibitions.

For example, at the next documenta which you’ll head as a curator, the format of
the exhibition is not going to disappear either. You said earlier that “SindikatCampursari” could just as well have done without an exhibition, but I haven’t lost
my interest in the potential of exhibitions.

Ade: At the moment we’re experimenting with things I’ve mentioned earlier –turning representation into occupation, grafting, institutional practice, andchanging their models of translation. The methods of expression employed byartists are becoming more complicated, which is why I share your doubts. Many
people are asking me if exhibitions are still effective, or whether the concept of
the exhibition is a good fit at all.

For example, the Ruru Gakko [Institut ruangrupa] at the Aichi Triennale was aboutfinding and implementing original forms of operations for educational programs
by institutions like art museums in a specific community. Another phrase may bealternative institutional practice. When it comes to translating and presenting
such practices, I believe publishing a book or holding a symposium would be
more suitable methods than an exhibition. At the moment, many artworks exist
only temporarily, not permanently, without any form of object in which to remain. Ithink our challenge right now is to find ways of presenting them to the public.
Perhaps it is necessary to explore forms other than the exhibition.

Ruru Gakko [Institut ruangrupa], Aichi Triennale 2016
Courtesy of Aichi Triennale Committee

ruangrupa’s “collectivism”
Hattori: You also create artworks in a personal capacity, as a solo artist. Is there aclear separation between your own works and your activities with ruangrupa?

Ade: Hmm… One contributes a lot to the other. They are not distinct; there is aconnection between them. The same is true for other members of ruangrupa, by
the way: they have their personal side and their side as a member of thecollective. The collective practices strengthen the individual practices, and viceversa.

Hattori: In short, what exactly is the “collectivism” you advocate?

Ade: It’s the ethics and values that I talked about earlier. It involves having a firm──there’s an aesthetic value at playideology, but not just ethics or morals alone

as well. A collective isn’t simply a gathering of many people; there is an ideology,a political ideal, an aesthetical ideal to it as well. Calling any group of people a“collective” isn’t going to explain much, is it? To me, “collectivism” means
practice with ideals, and applying that to your day-to-day activities. You can usethat structure every day.

Hattori: Will your future activities also be based on collectivism?

Ade: Yes, I think so. I’m also thinking of employing the idea of grafting that I
talked about earlier. And collective resources and sharing. I think of applying
these at the documenta as well, as an institutional practice.

Hattori: Small adjustments, based on the conditions, to change course in a moreinteresting direction, rather than enacting spectacular, revolutionary changes?

Ade: Yes, that’s right. Changing an institution requires many processes. You haveto conduct various experimental trials. It isn’t something that can be donequickly. I think it’s necessary to slowly change existing methods and systems,
from schools to art institutions, museums, and biennales.

Hattori: You’ve been very clear that what collectives need is an ideology andvalues, of an ethical as well as an aesthetic nature. To be honest, I found thatsurprising. I had expected that the foundation might be the nongkrong

──the──that Indonesian artists like yourself“hanging out with new and old friends”

often mention when talking about collectives, and I thought the collective would
have a strong meaning as a place one belongs to, a place to return to.

But based on what we talked about, the fundamental aspect seems to involve
activists who share an ideology and try to develop social activities as a group,and I feel that this is symbolized in the word ethics that has made several
appearances today. I was reminded that, of course, there has to be something
fundamental like shared ethics behind the 20 years of your continuing activities.

But I must say that upon my visit to ruangrupa’s space in Jakarta, I understood
the meaning of the word nongkrong. It was simply such a pleasant experience.

The strong will of the group, on one hand, and the looseness as a place to hang──you engage with a plentitude of problems andout and relax, on the otherpossibilities simultaneously, while accepting contradictions. With the inherent
complexities that are part of being a collective, you manage to maintain fluidityand flexibility while embracing change and give shape to your ethics through yourengagement in numerous projects across place and time. I’m excited to see how
ruangrupa will continue expanding artistic practices through future projects likedocumenta, and I look forward to the little new branches that will spread fromyour grafting approach.

The base camp for the collectives including ruangrupa in Jakarta. Gudskul is held in thisspace.
Courtesy of Jin Panji

Related Keywords
ruangrupa, nongkrong