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A Dialogue on“What Is China: Problems in Modernity, State, Culture” *GE Zhaoguang

Talks with Authors Series, Rethinking China: Its Territory, People, Culture,and History1 by Ge Zhaoguang, Director of the National Institute forAdvanced Humanistic Studies, Fudan University, ShanghaiJapan National Press Club, November 10, 2014
On November 10, 2014, Ge Zhaoguang, Director of the National Institute forAdvanced Humanistic Studies at Fudan University in Shanghai and winner of
the twenty-sixth Asia-Pacific Award アジア・太平洋賞, held a press conferenceat the Japan National Press Club. As part of the series “Talks with Authors,”
Prof. Ge discussed “What Is China?” using such key concepts as worldviews,
national borders, history, and periphery to present the contents of his awardwinning book Rethinking China: Its Territory, People, Culture, and History.
Coincidentally, this press conference was held on the very day that Prime
Minister Abe Shinzō and Chairman Xi Jinping met in Beijing, the firstJapan-China heads-of-state meeting in two years. Prof. Ge advocates that
China rid itself of the notion that it is the Celestial Empire 天朝, and encourages China and neighboring countries to adopt a sensible attitude in dealing
with friction over territorial disputes. Here we present the text of his talk andthe main questions and answers following.
Moderator: ‌Bandō Kenji, member of the Planning Committee, Japan National
Press Club (and expert member of the Editorial Board of theMainichi Shinbun)
Interpreter: ‌Ōmori Kikue, Simul InternationalYouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdzvWhaZTtM

	  * This press conference first appeared in Japanese in Ajia jihō, December 2014, and istranslated here with permission of the Asian Affairs Research Council. © 2015
Japan National Press Club
1 Ge Zhaoguang 葛 兆 光, He wei Zhongguo: Jiangyu, minzu, wenhua yu lishi 何 為 中
國：疆域， 民族， 文化與歷史 (Rethinking China: Its Territory, People, Culture, andHistory) (Hong Kong: Oxford University Press, 2014). Translated into Japanese as
Chūgoku saikō: Sono ryōiki, minzoku, bunka 中国再考：その領域、民族、文化 (Tokyo:
Iwanami Shoten, 2014).

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Moderator For our series “Talks with Authors,” we are pleased to havewith us today Prof. Ge Zhaoguang of Fudan University in Shanghai. Prof.
Ge’s book Rethinking China was published by Iwanami Shoten in its“Contemporary Library” series and will receive the Asia-Pacific Award. Prof.
Ge is in Japan to receive this award tomorrow at the award ceremony. Taking
advantage of this opportunity, we asked him to give a talk to us. Today, aftera lapse of two and a half years, the Japanese and Chinese heads of state aremeeting, so the talk couldn’t be more timely. China is expanding, and in his
book, Prof. Ge takes a historical perspective and talks about how China is
expanding, both as a country and in its relations with other countries. Prof.
Ge’s talk will, I am sure, have many suggestions for how to think about
Sino-Japanese relations. First we will hear Prof. Ge’s talk, and then Prof. Ge
will take questions. Let us hear, then, what Prof. Ge has to say about hisbook.

The Ten Problem Areas Facing China
Prof. Ge Good afternoon! Here I would like to concisely present myreasons for writing Rethinking China, what the book says, and what I think.
At present China is growing its economy and increasing in strength, yet
within China, we are discussing the difficulties that China faces. I call these
difficulties “the ten problem areas.” What are they? The first is the Korean
problem, that is, issues related to North and South Korea. The second is the
problem of the Diaoyu (Senkaku) Islands in the East China Sea. The third is
the problem with Vietnam and the Philippines in the South China Sea. The
fourth is the problem of Inner and Outer Mongolia. The fifth is the Xinjiang
problem, which is connected with Islam. The sixth is the Tibetan problem,
which is related to Tibetan Buddhism. The seventh is the Taiwan problem,
which involves the countries’ two different systems. The eighth is the SinoIndian problem, which concerns the two countries’ borders. The ninth
involves China’s many ethnic minorities. Issues have arisen between the Han
majority and minorities and also within various ethnic minorities. The tenth isthe Hong Kong problem, which is presently attracting much attention. These
problems concern China’s neighbors, China’s international relations, andChinese domestic problems.
In Chinese historical circles, five key concepts are occupying much discussion at present. These five key concepts are territory, ethnic minorities,
China’s periphery, the state, and identity. In writing this book, I discussed fiveareas: the traditional or historical worldview, international relations, national
borders, history, and China’s periphery. With this book, I hope to achieve areconception of China along four dimensions.

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Rethinking China in Terms of Four Features
Prof. Ge In considering the first feature, I argued that over the course of
China’s long history, various ethnic groups have blended together, that
China’s territory was constantly changing, and that China’s culture is pluralistic.
I also argued, the second feature, that the theme of the modern history of
China is different from those of Europe and Japan. For example, the theme ofEuropean history is a transition from empires to nation-states. But modern
Chinese history has two themes: the transition from being the entire world 天
下 to being one in a community of nations, and the incorporation of the four
peripheral peoples 四 裔 into the central empire. These two themes shaped
China into a rather unique nation.
A third feature of China presented in my book is that China vastly differsfrom its neighboring countries not just in politics but also in culture, with theresult that these countries diverged considerably. So in this book I devoted achapter to describe how the cultures and identities of the countries of East
Asia increasingly diverged from the sixteenth century.
The fourth feature of China is that contemporary China faces a very
difficult political and cultural situation. So I would like to ask my readers inJapan and elsewhere in the world (since this book is being translated into
English) to show understanding of China. Below I would like to cover thesefour features in more detail.

China’s Peculiar History and Its Ethnic Problem
Prof. Ge Why did I write about the blending of different ethnic groups, thechanges in China’s territory, and the pluralism of Chinese culture in Chinese
history? For one, I want to change traditional Chinese thinking, and foranother, I also sought to anticipate objections. What is the traditional Chinese
way of thinking? It is the outlook that China comprises the entire world 天下.
It includes the system of tributary states 朝 貢 國 and the system of enfeoffment 冊封. It is the notion that China is the source of East Asian culture andthe center of East Asia. It is the view that the East Asian cultural spheredeveloped in countries that used Chinese characters 漢 字 文 化 圏. I sought toquestion this traditional Chinese way of thinking.
In this small book of mine, I devoted the first chapter to consideration of
how China’s territory and culture changed over the course of history. In
ethnic relations, we can’t rely just on unreflective Han ethnic perceptions. In
considering territory, we can’t just look at the territory of interest; we have tolook at other areas as well. Hence, we cannot blithely discuss territory simply

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in terms of history. In the cultural sphere as well, we have to look not just at
Han Chinese high culture, but also at the culture of other peoples, the cultureof the lower classes, and other religions. Only thus, I pointed out, can weachieve a truly pluralistic cultural perspective.
China presently faces numerous difficulties, some of which have their
origins in history. As those who know Chinese history acknowledge, from theHan to Tang dynasty China had a vast empire that encompassed the entire
world 天 下. But in the Song dynasty, the empire shrank to a size morecomparable to surrounding countries and included primarily the Han ethnic
group.
During the three centuries of the Song period (960–1279), China gradually developed into a Han ethnic country, and in the surrounding regions,other nation-states came into being, resulting in a multinational regional
order.
But in the thirteenth century, a strange development occurred in Chinese
history: Mongols established the Mongolian empire over China. And in the
Ming period, China reverted back to a Han ethnic country. Later, in the Qing
period, China again became an empire encompassing many ethnic groups.
Thus, Chinese history differs considerably from the history of other East
Asian regions.
During the Yuan dynasty, difficulties arose between China and its neighbors. Then in the Ming dynasty China faced another difficulty: the arrival ofWesterners. And in the Qing dynasty, with the expansion of the empire toinclude other ethnic groups, domestic ethnic issues arose. Each of these problems—difficulties with the periphery, difficulties with encounters from theWest, and domestic ethnic difficulties—have a historical underpinning.

Modern China Continues to Face the Problems of a Multiethnic
CountryProf. Ge Above is the first part of my talk. In this the second part of mytalk, I would like to talk about the formation of the modern Chinese state, theRepublic of China. This is the government that succeeded the Qing government. As a result, the Republic of China succeeded to the three difficulties
mentioned above. Previously, a Western scholar has viewed the formation of
the modern Chinese state as a transition from being the entire world 天 下 tobeing a member of the community of nations, from being the overlord in thetribute system to being a simple modern state, from being a traditional
empire to being a modern nation-state.2 I happen to think that this view is too
2 Joseph Levenson, Confucian China and Its Modern Fate, 3 vols. (Berkeley: University

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simple.
The Chinese view is that modern China gathers the four peripheral peoples
四裔 into one nation, and in fact, from the Qing empire through the Republicof China and into the People’s Republic of China, there have been efforts toincorporate numerous peoples into the nation. This view is expressed in thephrase 五族共和, the idea of the five ethnic groups forming one republic, thefive ethnic groups being the Manchus, the Mongols, the Hui ethnic group, theTibetans, and the Han ethnic group. We should also include, I think, the Miao
ethnic group. These ethnic groups should form a single Chinese nation, thethinking goes. This idea has been pursued by Chinese scholars and politiciansin continuation of the multiethnic tradition in China from the Qing empireon.
If we look at a Ming-period map of China, we see that its territory israther limited. This limited amount of territory indicates that the Ming
dynasty was ethnically a Han dynasty. But China greatly expanded in the
Qing dynasty, and its great expanse of land became the basis for the territoryof present-day China. According to the section on China’s geography (地理一)in the Draft History of Qing 清史稿 (vol. 54), China’s territory extended from
Sakhalin in the east to Shule, Xinjiang, and the Pamir Mountains in the west;
from the Stanovoy Range in the north to Guangdong and the South China Sea
in the south. The Republic of China and the People’s Republic of China took
over this expanse of land and considered it China’s territory. Hence, thegovernment had to accede to the idea of five ethnic groups forming one
republic.

A Modern State or an Empire?
Prof. Ge Hence, China developed into a peculiar nation, quite different
from the modern nations of Europe and East Asia. In a previous book ofmine, Seeking Harmony in China, I wrote the following: “China is different
from European countries in that it did not develop from an empire to anation-state. Rather, China perceives itself as an empire, but within its notionof empire are notions of a modern state. Hence, elements of empire and amodern state are mixed together.”3 Thus, I would like Western and Japanesescholars to understand the special nature of China.
These past several years I have had opportunities to visit Europe andof California Press, 1958–1965).
3 Ge Zhaoguang 葛兆光，Zhai zi Zhongguo: Chongjian you guan “Zhongguo” de lishi
lunshu 宅兹中国: 重建有关「中国」的历史论述 (Seeking Harmony in China: Historical
Essays on Reconstructing the Notion of China) (Beijing: Zhonghua Shuju, 2011).

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America and, in Asia, South Korea as well, and in my encounters withcolleagues, I am often asked, “What kind of country is China? It seems likea modern country, but it also seems like a traditional empire.” In reply, I
mention three features of China. First, the traditional empire has collapsed.
But as a historical memory, the notion of the Celestial Empire 天 朝 lives onin the conceptual sphere. Second, from the late Qing period on, China
received a huge shock from the West, forcing it to abandon reforms within its
traditions and adopt radical changes outside its traditions. Facing a new
external environment, China had no recourse but to became a modern
country.
Third and most important, China became such a peculiar modern nation
owing to Japan. During the 1894 Sino-Japanese War and World War II, Japanand the Western powers, through military might, exerted great pressure on
Chinese notions of ethnicity, nationhood, and internal schisms, and in reaction the Chinese people were forced to develop a huge country with centralized powers. These peculiar features of China bequeathed to present-day
China many difficulties and intellectual challenges.

China Should No Longer Think of Itself as a Celestial Empire
Prof. Ge Next I would like to talk about China’s relations with its neighbors, especially Japan, South Korea, and Vietnam. Historically, China and its
neighbors have been part of the same cultural sphere since ancient times.
Some Japanese scholars assert that Asia is one, but in fact that is not true. In
particular, Japan from early times has not identified with Chinese culture,
South Korea has views that differ from China’s, and Vietnam regularly has
conflicts with China.
We can grasp the situation by reading a historical work published in Japanin the middle of the seventeenth century, From Civilization to Barbarianism
華 夷 變 態. In that work Hayashi Shunsai 林 春 齋 argued that China was nolonger the center of civilization, but had sunk into barbarianism. Thus thecenter and the periphery were not uniform; China had conflicts with its
neighbors. Hence I remind my Chinese readers that since it is no longer the
Celestial Empire, it should not continue to think of itself as such, that China
was not the source of all East Asian culture.
At the same time I would like to remind my readers abroad, especiallyin Japan, that China has a history of being divided up, invaded, and humiliated. A map of the late Qing period shows occupation of China by foreigncountries, and a map of 1939, during World War II, shows division of muchof China by the leading world powers. Thus, I believe that China must rid
itself of the notion that it is the Celestial Empire, and that non-Chinese

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should try to understand China better.

A Modern Multiethnic Nation or a Grand Unity?
Prof. Ge Let me take up my fourth topic of discussion. We shouldn’t thinkthat China has risen up. Simply put, China is presently beset with difficulties,
especially in the areas of modernization, nation, and culture. In the area ofmodernization, a big topic of discussion in China is whether China should
modernize along Western lines or should pursue its own path of modernization. In the area of nationhood, a big problem of discussion is whether China
should seek to be a modern multiethnic nation or should seek a grand unity,in the manner of the Han, Tang, especially Qing dynasties. In the area ofculture, China faces a great difficulty. Should we accept modern Westerncultural values, or should we seek to preserve the special features of Chinese
culture? Should we strive for parity of place for Chinese culture among thecultures of the world? Should we seek to recover the revered place occupied
by Chinese culture in the cultures of East Asia or Asia? These questions are
great topics of discussion in academic, cultural, and political circles in China.
At issue is whether we adapt to the rest of the world, or let the rest of theworld accept the unique features of Chinese culture.

Three Key Concepts: History, Sensibility, and Others
Prof. Ge Finally, I would like to say that though many people think that
China has risen up and become powerful, can we really say that China is asuperpower comparable to the United States? I think that the Chinese should
be self-aware and exercise caution, that is, to prudently consider the situationand not harbor the illusion that China has risen up and become a superpower.
Otherwise, we will not be able to build good relationships with our neighbors
and make those around us feel secure. My goal in writing this small book is
to call for China and the rest of Asia to rebuild a common understanding.
I would like to conclude by emphasizing three key concepts. The first ofthese key concepts is history. Many contemporary problems in East Asia
concern history. Another key concept is sensibility. We need to be sensible indealing with issues that arise in relations between nations. The third key
concept is others. Whether the others are large or small, powerful or weak,
we have to learn to perceive ourselves as others perceive us.
Thank you for your attention.

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Questions and Answers
Modesty Is Essential
Moderator Thank you, Prof. Ge. Let us move on to the question andanswer session. If I may, I would like to pose the first question. Neighboring
countries feel pressed when we hear Chinese talk of “China having risen up,”“the revival of Chinese greatness,” and Xi Jinping’s “Chinese Dream.” Froman external vantage point, it seems that these expressions reflect a desire to
make China into a special country pursuing values other than universal
worldwide values. What is the tenor of discussion within China? Do mostscholars think that universal values are a burden for China?
Prof. Ge There are indeed many people who think that China has risen up
and become a strong superpower, but I personally think that this is not true,that we have to proceed cautiously. In fact, China today has three problems
that prevent it from being a strong country. One is the gap between rich andpoor. Presently, the number of rich people in China is rapidly increasing, butmore people are poor. Another is that China has a population of 1.4 billion,
so whenever one looks at per capita figures, China appears not to be such astrong country. Per capita income still hovers at low levels. The third is that
China has regional disparities. The gaps between east and west China, andbetween urban areas and rural areas, are tremendous. From this perspective,
we cannot say that China has become a superpower, and in particular, that it
is comparable to the United States. On the contrary, China needs to exercise
humility, to avoid pressing other countries and keep a low posture, and tomaintain good relations with neighbors and the world at large.
Moderator Thank you. Would that more Chinese approach such matters as
sensibly as our speaker.
Prof. Ge Scholars have their own stances and ways of thinking. They
cannot take the place of politicians, nor can they represent the common
people. Scholars have to be rational, but ordinary people tend to beemotional, and politicians seek practical advantage. The rationality ofscholars, the interest seeking of politicians, and the emotionality of ordinary
people do not necessarily align.
Moderator Thank you. Now let us take questions from the audience.

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Territorial Issues Require Sensible Responses
Question I would like to ask two questions. First, China presents the imageof a modern country and also the traditional image of being the entire world
天下, of being an empire. In dealing with territorial issues in the South China
Sea and the East China Sea, China seems to act more like an empire. You askthat neighboring countries be understanding of China’s circumstances, but ifneighboring countries perceive China as having expansionist proclivities, howshould they respond? My second question concerns the heads-of-statemeeting between Chairman Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Abe Shinzō. From
the Chinese point of view, why do you think that Chairman Xi Jinping
decided to meet with Prime Minister Abe at this particular time?
Prof. Ge The first question is related to the Chinese notion of being theentire world 天 下, the nature of its empire, and its view of the surrounding
territory. When a modern nation-state grows out of a empire, it is inevitablethat it encounter territorial conflicts. I do not think that China’s territorialconflicts stem entirely from its view of itself as an empire. Whether a territorial dispute is connected to China’s perception of itself as an empire depends
on its view of the disputed territory in question. For instance, we view
Yunnan and Northeast China as definitely belonging to China, because China
took over the territory of the Qing empire. In contrast, territorial issues in the
East China and South China seas require that we carefully discuss issues indetail, because during the time of the Qing empire, territory in the East China
sea was not demarcated. In the case of Northeast China, the area north ofNortheast China was ceded to Russia by the Treaty of Nerchinsk. Hence,
whether it is appropriate for China to claim this territory requires a separate
discussion. Though I don’t personally endorse the Chinese imperial system orperspective, whether China should revive imperial notions and whether China
should reclaim territory occupied by the Qing empire are separate issues. Thatis my answer to the first question.
As for the second question, I must apologize. As a university professor,
I have no connections with top-level politicians. So I have no way ofknowing why a heads-of-state meeting was realized at this time. As a scholar,
I advocate sensible thinking and action between nations, so I am glad to see
the two nations’ leaders meeting, and I am glad to see a breakthrough in theformerly strained relations of the two nations. But I have no way of knowing
why the breakthrough occurred now or what was discussed. In China, ordinary people know little about politics occurring at the highest levels ofgovernment.
Let me add to my answer to the first question. Nowadays territorial issues

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are resolved through negotiations and treaties. China may still harbor a bit ofimperialistic thinking, but in fact, to deal with disputes with other nations, it
has to rely on negotiations and treaties, as there is no alternative. Now, politicians, when they consider matters, seek advantages. But they can also seek
advantages sensibly, so seeking advantages isn’t incompatible with being
sensible. And if they think sensibly, they think how to avoid disputes andconflicts and figure out how to arrive at a solution that both sides will accept.
Of course, we cannot expect too much of our politicians, but we can hopethat in seeking advantages, they consider matters sensibly.

Self-Determination Is No Panacea
Question What do you think of the principle of self-determination? This isa principle put forth by Woodrow Wilson and Vladimir Lenin, so it may
reflect Western values. But you did mention that in China elements of empire
and a modern state are mixed together, and you did bring up the example ofNortheast China. Well, the Manchus formerly occupied the Northeast, andthey were an independent ethnic group. Now their ethnic identity has diminished, but the Uyghurs in Xinjiang and the Tibetans in Tibet have a strong
sense of ethnic identity and are seeking independence or greater autonomy.
Could you tell us your thoughts on these matters?
Prof. Ge Ethnic self-determination is a notion originating in the modernWest, especially modern Europe. The Italian Giuseppe Mazzini said that one
people belong to one country. But this ideal is often not realized. For
example, in Europe, a single country often has a number of ethnic groups
living side by side. Belgium, for instance, has Germanophones,
Dutchophones, and Francophones. I don’t think that ethnic self-determination
is a panacea. For example, the Ukraine has problems with Russian-speaking
Crimea, Spain has problems with Catalan-speaking Catalonia, Canada has
problems with the independence movement in French-speaking Quebec, andSerbia was divided by ethnic tensions.
Hence, ethnic self-determination is an ideal to strive for, but nation-states
do not form just on the basis of the principle of one people, one state. The
notion of one people, one state cannot be realized just anywhere. The historical conditions must be ripe for such a development. In a country with amodern state already formed, citizens cannot divide up the country justbecause several ethnic groups inhabit the same country. In fact, if we look at
China’s Xinjiang province, we find that Uyghurs constitute a majority in theregion, but there are also Kazakhs and Tajiks. So, what should be done? In aworld of increasing population flows and mixtures, ethnic self-determination

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is not going to solve all sorts of problems by itself. In fact, in some parts of
the West, it is precisely in the countries where people advocate ethnic selfdetermination as an immutable principle that there are wars and schisms. The
American scholar Lucian Pye once said something that deeply impressed me.
He said that ethnic identity can sometimes create a state and sometimes
destroy a state.

What Is Xi Jinping’s Chinese Dream?
Question Last year, when I visited China, I noticed all over China thesegigantic posters with young women and the wording “the Chinese dream.”Alongside such posters were propagandistic posters proclaiming the legitimacy of the Chinese Communist Party. When I asked Chinese friends, especially Shanghai intellectuals, about the Chinese dream, they said that the
Chinese dream is Xi Jinping’s dream. It is around sixty-five years since thefounding of the People’s Republic. What I would like to ask is whether Xi
Jinping’s Chinese dream represents a turn away from traditional Communist
Party rule based on Marxism-Leninism of the past sixty or so years and aturn toward the tradition of Chinese universalism 天下主義.
Prof. Ge The Chinese dream has two meanings. One is that since late in the
Qing dynasty, the Chinese nation desired to be strong and prosperous.
Because China was weak, from the late Qing period, China suffered abuse,bullying, and humiliation at the hands of the Western powers and Japan.
China’s goal for many years has been to become strong and prosperous. The
American scholar Benjamin Schwartz wrote a book about the late Qing
period titled In Search of Wealth and Power.4 As we can see from the title ofthis book, China has dreamed of becoming rich and powerful for many, many
years. Another meaning is the Chinese dream promoted by Xi Jinping.
Whether his notion of the Chinese dream is the century-old dream of theChinese nation to become rich and powerful, I don’t know. I am not a politician, nor am I a member of the Communist Party, so I can’t stand here inplace of him and answer what he has in mind when he speaks of the Chinese
dream. If his notion of the Chinese dream is the traditional notion, that isfine. The Communist Party has held the reins of power for sixty-five years.
Before the Communist Party, there was the Republic of China. And even
4 In Search of Wealth and Power: Yen Fu and the West (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard
University Press, 1964). Translated into Japanese by Hirano Kenichirō as 中国の近代化と知識人：厳復と西洋 (Tokyo: Tōkyō Daigaku Shuppankai, 1978). Translated
into Chinese by Ye Fengmei as 寻求富 强：严 复 与 西 方 (Nanjing: Jiangsu Renmin
Chubanshe, 1996).

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further back there was the Guangxu emperor and the Empress Dowager Cixiof the Qing dynasty. Throughout this entire period there was a desire to make
China into a rich, powerful, and complete nation. Thus, there is someconnection, I think, between the traditional notion of the Chinese dream andXi Jinping’s notion of the Chinese dream. No doubt, there is also politicalmotivation for trotting out the notion of the Chinese dream at this time. My
reason for thinking this is that if the nation achieves the Chinese dream of
becoming rich and powerful, the Communist Party and the present government become legitimate and seem sensible. So there are political motives
behind the Chinese dream. What is important is not whether we call thisthinking “the Chinese dream,” but the means used and systems put in place
to realize the Chinese dream. If the Chinese dream means wealth and power
for the whole nation—not just an individual or political faction or government—only then is the Chinese dream sensible indeed. This is the Chinese
dream that the Chinese nation has aspired to for the past century.
Moderator That concludes our press conference today. We thank Prof. Ge
for his talk about taking a historical perspective, using a sensible approach,and treating others with respect. Thank you very much!