CSTS podcast series
episode 107: PARTNERS IN SAFETY

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NOTES

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AUDIO
JULIE STILL: My husband, Seth, and I have been married for
19 years, and we have three children.

3.

JULIE STILL: Seth and I are both born and raised
Mississippi. We met at Mississippi State University and wenever left.

4.

JULIE STILL: Seth is the wing chaplain in the Air National
Guard. He joined in 2010.

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JULIE STILL: When he first approached me about joining themilitary, I was terrified. I didn't know anything about it exceptthat he was going to probably deploy and be gone. And thatwas scary to me.

6.

JULIE STILL: Of course, with the fear is also a great pride. I
love that Seth has a huge heart. I know that he truly felt
called. As his wife, that makes me proud that he feels thecalling and wants to help people.

7.
8.

Transition to
new beat
JULIE STILL: Seth was deployed for seven months.

19.

JULIE STILL: I didn't know what to expect when he returned.
I knew that it was going to take time to adjust to him being
home but I didn't expect that much of a change.

10.

JULIE STILL: He was still Seth, obviously. But just a little
more guarded, and he was a tad angrier than before he left.

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12.

JULIE STILL: When we first got married, I knew that Seth
had a gun, but I didn't see it as any kind of threat at that point.

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JULIE STILL: The first time that I saw the gun as a direct
threat to our family was after Seth returned. And he sharedwith me that he was having suicidal thoughts. I was terrified.

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JULIE STILL: I just remember coming home from a girl’snight and pulling up to our cute little yellow house andstanding at the step and not wanting to go inside. I remember
having to force myself up the steps. I just had a bad feelingthat he wasn't okay and I was afraid to go inside.

15.

JULIE STILL: The next day I decided to get the gun out of thehouse. I found the gun and I did something with it. I can't
remember if I hid it or if I gave it to a friend.

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JULIE STILL: It was a relief to get the gun out of the house,of course. But it was sad and scary at the same time.

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18.

DR WEST: Julie Still is a spouse in a gun-owning household.
Four in ten American households own guns. Yet she and herhusband never talked about whether those guns were storedsafely or not. Her willingness to initiate a tough conversation
about the firearms in their home may have saved herhusband's life.

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JULIE STILL: It took a long time before we really had a real
conversation where we were on the same page about thegun. It took a lot of learning to communicate about how he
was doing. He wasn't very he went in super open maybe withhow he was feeling. And I was afraid to ask or afraid tomaybe hear what he had to say.

20.

DR WEST: I’m Dr James West: Associate Professor of
Psychiatry and a Scientist at the Center for the Study ofTraumatic Stress. Today, in Let’s Talk About Your Guns we’ll
hear about what it took for Julie Still to have a conversation
about safe storage with her husband.
We'll also talk to Dr. Leanne Knoblauch. She'll offer guidance
for spouses who want to talk about firearm safety but aren't
sure how to do it.

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DR WEST: Firearm safety in the home is built around fiveprinciples. Weapons should be stored unloaded. They should
be taken apart or stored with a disabling device engaged.
They should be stored in locked containers, and ammunition
should be stored in a separate locked container. Finally,3

firearm safety in the home involves having a plan for storingguns in an alternate location during times of crisis.
22.

DR WEST: Conversations about firearm safety can seem
challenging. It’s my hope that after listening to this podcast,
you’ll feel empowered to initiate a dialogue with your spouse
about gun safety in a way that makes you both feel heard.

23.

DR WEST: Because this podcast isn’t about whether you arefor or against firearms. It’s about how to have open andhonest conversations about safe storage. Conversations that
may save a life.
So now… Let’s Talk about Your Guns.

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new beat

25.

DR WEST: Julie, we're so grateful to you for sharing yourstory. I do want to take a moment and tell our listeners thatyour husband Seth was our guest in the previous episode andthat this is a continuation of that story. To start out can you tellme about what familiarity you had with guns and safety
growing up?

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JULIE STILL: I grew up in a family we were and still are very
big white tailed deer hunters. So I grew up around hunting
rifles and, you know. My dad taught me gun safety. That wasvery important. And then we taught our children gun safety,
you know, with rifles. Growing up, my mom kept a handgun inher car under her seat. And my dad, I'm sure he had one, but
I don't think we really had them in the house.

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27.

DR WEST: So you and Seth got married and you knew hekept guns at home. And it sounds like you knew or at least
you had an idea that he stored his handgun in a dresser
drawer. Was that something that you talked about as acouple?

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JULIE STILL: I don't really remember having a conversation
around the handgun. I knew he had one, but I never really
saw it. It was just one of those things that was probably
handed down from a family member that he just wanted tohold on to. And it was there in a drawer. Where we live,
especially, it's, you know, every man has a gun. And so I
didn't think anything about it. You know, I necessarily don't
love the idea of a handgun. But, you know, it's just how it is.
Every man has a gun. And so Seth has a gun.

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DR WEST: After you had children, did you have aconversation about the gun then?

30.

JULIE STILL: I don't know that the conversation changed
when we had children. I feel like we were on the same pageof it was never kept loaded or anything like that. We bothknew we wanted to keep our children away from it and put it
somewhere safe.

31.

DR WEST: And at what point did you start to worry that the
gun in your home might be a danger?
JULIE STILL: Since early in our marriage, I knew that Sethwas kind of wired to have seasons is what I'll call them of he5

would be just sad or maybe depressed, I'm not sure. But hewould always kind of come out of them. So he would tell me
like I have had thoughts where I wanted to kill myself and I
would. But he would always say, but I would never do it. And
then this conversation was the first time he said, but I think I
could do it. And then, we were gonna get the gun out of thehouse. It's terrifying to hear someone you love say that they
didn't want to be alive anymore.
You think about keeping your children safe from a handgun,
which you don't really think about one day having to keep
your spouse safe from a handgun.
Transition to
new beat
32.

DR WEST: Dr. Leon Knobloch studies how couples
communicate, especially during difficult times. She's heard
stories like Julie's before.

33.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: Julie had a feeling that something
was off and recognized that it might be a potentially big
problem, which makes the communication a high stakes
episode. It's risky to have that kind of sensitive conversation
with your spouse when you know that it's a high stakes
moment and you want to get it just right.

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DR WEST: What are some of the topics that couples mightfind it difficult to talk about?

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DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: There are a lot of topics that are
more high stakes and that makes them more difficult to talk6

about: finances, sexual intimacy, work life balance, in-laws,
how much time we're spending on hobbies versus how muchtime we're spending with the family. All of those topics can besensitive topics and spouses sometimes avoid thoseconversations because they know that it might not go well.
And so in those high stakes conversations, which sometimes
talking about guns are those high stakes conversations, youwant to be extra ready to talk about it with your best self.
36.

DR WEST: And why are conversations about topics like theseso challenging?

37.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: It all goes back to trust, right?
There's always a chance when you open yourself up that yourpartner is going to judge you or reject you or dismiss you. So
anytime there is an issue where you feel like your spouse isgoing to react very negatively or you feel like the relationshipis on the line those are situations where the stakes are highand it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of guts to beable to broach those topics with your partner. And so it's really
important to put yourself in your partner's shoes before youenter the conversation, just so that you're prepared, so thatyou can think through the issue from your partner's point ofview. And then consider what in this message might trigger
my partner's negative reaction?

38.

DR WEST: Are there specific challenges in theseconversations if they are about guns in the home?

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39.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: There are definitely challenges
about spouses having conversations about guns in the home.
What immediately comes to mind for me is this idea of face
threat. And a face threat is just a message that either directly
or indirectly criticizes another person's valued identity. So a
face threat is something that causes us to lose face. You
could go into those conversations incredibly well meaning.
And accidentally trigger some face threats in yourconversation that make your partner defensive. And that's
going to be working exactly opposite of your intended goal.

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DR WEST: Face threats. Help me understand this.

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DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: Let me give you some examples.
A message could have a direct face threat, like you're soforgetful, right? A very direct message like that, has thoseface threats just built in. You're very forgetful. You're soforgetful. But an indirect face threat can happen frequently,
even when we don't mean to. So what if we said, did you
remember to lock the garage door? On one level, that could
be just a very innocent question. Did you remember to lockthe garage door? But if spouses have a pattern of one person
sort of nagging for forgetfulness a lot, then the other spousemight immediately take that sentence as an indictment of theirforgetfulness. So did you remember to lock the garage door isabout hmmmm are you so forgetful that I can't trust you to do
this right? And so that example illustrates why talking about
guns can be so challenging, because there are a lot of face
threats involved.

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You don't want to imply that your partner is not able to makehis or her own decisions. You don't want to imply that you're
smarter than your partner and that you can tell your partner
what to do. You don't want to imply that your partner is not incontrol of his or her emotions or is a loose cannon or is nottrustworthy. You don't want to imply that your partner is a bad
person or weak.
There's a lot of face threats that could be floating around in aconversation about guns, and to do these kinds ofconversations effectively, spouses need to know how to deal
with some of these face threats.
42.

DR WEST: So face threats can be real barriers to effective
conversations. Can you suggest specific ways that partners
can overcome or avoid activating face threats?

43.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: So I would begin with messages
that are really encouraging and supportive and complimentthem for the good decisions that they've made. Say, youknow, you're a great father, you're a great husband, and I
have concerns about the gun storage. I wonder if we could
talk about that. You might say my experience with guns isdifferent from yours. And I want to learn how you're thinking
about this gun and some of the reasons why you're storing it
here and could we consider maybe other options?
You have to really listen. You have to listen to what yourpartner is saying and you have to brainstorm with them somesolutions that might be potentially satisfactory to both people.
You also want to ask questions rather than say, we need to9move this gun, it's not safe for us and our children. You might
say instead, let's brainstorm some options, some things that
we both would be happy with in terms of storage.
We all want the autonomy to make our own decisions. And
when people speak to us in ways that don't protect ourlikability and our independence. We react negatively, thattriggers us and when those messages are coming in.
So they stop hearing the content and all they can think is,
Wow, my spouse is telling me what to do or wow, my partner
thinks I'm a bad person.
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DR WEST: So let's use the example of the loaded handgun
that's stored in the dresser drawer. And the spouse knowsthat that increases the risk both to her husband and but also
to the other members of the household. Kids could find it. It
raises the risk to her should there be, you know, interpersonal
conflict in the marriage. And so she wants to make thesuggestion of, okay, can we lock this up or can we store theammunition clip somewhere else? And are there suggestions
that you would have for that conversation thinking about thisconcept of face threat?

45.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: You could frame it like. You're
putting us in a dangerous situation. You're putting your family
at risk. You could come in with sort of that no holds barredkind of a message, or you can frame it like you're ourprotector and we appreciate the lengths that you go to protect
your family. And at the same time, let's think about whether
the way that we're going to protect ourselves is moredangerous or less dangerous than some other strategies that10

we might consider. So one message is you are the danger.
And the other message is you are the protector. And there isa danger. So let's figure out, since we're both united in thisgoal of protecting our family, which you do so well, let's think
about in this situation, if the rewards outweigh the costs, if thedanger is actually higher from this avenue or this avenue.
Do you see how that sort of shifts the blame from you'remaking a poor decision to we have a teenager in our house
who is facing a lot of challenges and for their safety, it would
probably be best if we didn't have the gun in the house.
So I think that that is a really good strategy because it getsthe job done without making the gun owner defensive.
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DR WEST: Wow, that sounds so strategic. Does it have to bethat way?

47.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: I don't mean it to sound thatstrategic. It’s just reflecting in advance about how you want
the conversation to go and you're ready. You've done yourhomework, but don't we always do our homework for big
situations? Don't we always get prepared for those momentsthat we know are going to be super important in our lives?

48.

DR WEST: Let's say let's say you didn't send the message as
effectively as you had hoped, and now your partner has
become defensive. How would you suggest you manage that
defensiveness once it's entered into the conversation?

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49.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: No matter how much we plan andno matter how well we reflect on things going in, theunexpected can happen or we can say something
accidentally or that we didn't even know would trigger ourpartner. So it's not uncommon. It happens pretty often that we
get in these situations and we see that our partner has
become defensive. When that happens there is a couple ofimportant strategies. One is you want to get right in there andnip it in the bud as fast as you can because a spiral ofincreasing defensiveness is only going to make it harder foryour partner to listen and absorb your message. So you want
to watch carefully for signs of defensiveness and as soon as
you see it, you want to jump in and counteract it.
So if someone says. Are you saying I don't know how to takecare of my own guns? You might say, Oh, I didn't mean that atall. What I was saying instead is I think that you make really
good decisions and you're a great protector of your family.
What I meant to say was I really respect your judgment and I
love how you think through things so carefully. So in thismoment. I was wondering if we could talk about this issue, notbecause I'm critical of the decisions that you're making, but
because I love the family so much. And I would rest a loteasier if we had a calm discussion about this.
Obviously, if it's an emergency situation where the health andsafety of family members is at risk, you're going to have to
make bolder moves than you otherwise would but if you havetime and space to get at it gently, that might avoid triggering

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your spouse and have him or her be much more open to what
you're saying.
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DR WEST: So in a crisis, you do what you have to do. You
say what you have to say. But it seems to me what you'resuggesting is that these conversations are most effective
before there's a crisis and that maybe this should besomething spouses talk about on a regular basis.

51.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: For sure. For example, any family
who has a gun in their home when they change the batteries
in their smoke alarm, or when there's daylight savings time orwith every new year, they really consider that gun, its storage,
its function, and what potential dangers are in the home. And
then it becomes not a taboo topic, not a topic that, oh, I haveno idea how this is going to go because we've never talked
about it, but a topic that we revisit with pretty regularfrequency. And so if the time comes or we need to reevaluate
and make a change, that's okay, because we've beenreevaluating the situation pretty regularly.

52.

DR WEST: Do you feel that having challenging conversations
like this improves communication between couples overall?
DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: Absolutely. Having challenging
conversations that are effectively navigated builds intimacy
between couples.
The more that you can get through these turbulent waters
together, the more you can come back and say, we havegotten through some challenging times. And we're stronger
13and we can get through more challenging times or we've
worked through some really hard topics. Our communicationis getting much more effective. We can use thesecommunication skills to get through other challenging times.
The more couples build a history of being able to work
together and overcome obstacles, the more they can rightly
feel good about their bond and their intimacy, and they canrecognize that the next challenge is going to be right aroundthe corner. But they're in a place where they're well positioned
and they have a great track record of being able to handle iteffectively.
53. Transition to
new beat
54.

DR WEST: Julie Still agrees. Seth was in crisis and she hadto act. They had an open and honest conversation about thesuicidal thoughts he was having. He was relieved. Since thattime, they've had regular conversations about the guns intheir home. Today they're even closer than before.

55.

JULIE STILL: I feel like our communication is so much better
now and just being able to trust each other and be honest andask the hard questions.
I know when he tells me now that I'm not, you know, temptedby the handgun, I believe him and I trust him.
Seth didn't need me to fix him. He just needed me to hear him
and support him. And that's what I tried my best to do.

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56.

DR WEST: Do you have any advice for other couples who
might be hesitant to dive into these challenging discussions?

57.

JULIE STILL: I would say I would hope that you love eachother and respect each other enough that you can have an
open, honest, real conversation without hurting each other.
Being married to someone, you have, like, this unique ability
to make someone feel the most loved, but you also have theability to hurt them more than anyone else in the world. And I
think you just have to be very careful with that power. And I
would say approach the topic gently and with love and not the
opposite.

58. Transition to
new beat
59.

DR WEST: In this episode of Let's Talk About Your Guns. We
learned about tough conversations about guns, safety andrisk with those who are the closest and most important peoplein our lives, our spouses and partners. We thought aboutbarriers to conversation, things like face threats and ways that
we can overcome them. These conversations are so
important and they're best done long before a crisis comesalong. This isn't about being for or against guns. It's about
getting people close to us to make safer choices and prevent
suicide by putting some time and space between an impulsive
thought and a fatal act.

60.

DR WEST: Thank you to Julie Still and Dr Leanne Knoblochfor participating in this discussion.

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61.

DR WEST: You’ve been listening to Let’s Talk about Your
Guns. This podcast is made possible by The Henry M.
Jackson Foundation for the Advancement of Military
Medicine. It’s produced by Podville Media for the Center for
the Study of Traumatic Stress at the Uniformed Services
University.

62.

DR WEST: Be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite
podcast app and leave a five-star review.
Thanks for listening.

63.

PRESENTER: The views expressed are those of the
speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions,or policies of the Uniformed Services University, theDepartment of Defense, the US Government, or The Henry
M. Jackson Foundation for the Advancement of Military
Medicine, Inc.

64.

PRESENTER: Mention of trade names, commercial products,
or organizations does not necessarily constitute or imply
endorsement by the Uniformed Services University, theDepartment of Defense, or the US Government or The Henry
M. Jackson Foundation for the Advancement of Military
Medicine, Inc.

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Let’s Talk About Your Guns
episode 107: PARTNERS IN SAFETY

SOCIAL SNIPPET
1.

DR LEANNE KNOBLOCH: There's always a chancewhen you open yourself up that your partner is goingto judge you or reject you or dismiss you. So anytime
there is an issue where you feel like your spouse isgoing to react very negatively or you feel like therelationship is on the line those are situations where
the stakes are high and it takes a lot of courage and it
takes a lot of guts to be able to broach those topics
with your partner. And so it's really important to put
yourself in your partner's shoes before you enter theconversation, and consider what in this message might
trigger my partner's negative reaction?

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Let’s Talk About Your Guns
episode 107: PARTNERS IN SAFETYEPISODE TITLE AND DESCRIPTIONEPISODE 6
EPISODE TITLE: PARTNERS IN SAFETYEPISODE DESCRIPTION: Four in ten American households own guns. Yet many
couples may never discuss safe storage until there is a crisis situation. In this
episode, we discuss how to talk about guns, safety and risk with those who are theclosest and most important people in our lives: our spouses and partners. We hearfrom Julie Still, whose conversation about safe storage with her husband may havesaved his life. We’ll also hear from Dr. Leanne Knobloch, who offers guidance forspouses who want to talk about firearm safety but aren't sure how to do it.
Resources, transcripts and more athttps://www.cstsonline.org/suicide-prevention-program/podcasts

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