[WDO Event: World Industrial Design Day Design Dialogue Vol.3]

Attendees:Tadayuki Yakushi [General Manager, Design Group, Technology Planning Office, Global
Product Planning Dept., R&D Center, TOYOTA Material Handling Company]
Tama Art University: Moe Iwaguma, Shinya Kita, Amane Saita
Chiba University: Shinji Yamanaka, Marie Maruyama, You Kato
Musashino Art University: Kenou Kanai, Chihiro Shimada, Sakura Togami
Moderator: Akiko Watanabe (Senior manager, Japan Institute of Design Promotion)
Watanabe: Thank you everyone for joining the WDO Japan Member Design Dialogue today. The

World Design Organization (WDO) is an international industrial design organization with 180
member organizations from about 40 countries and regions around the world. There five members
from Japan are Tama Art University, Chiba University, Musashino Art University, the Japan
Industrial Design Association, and the Japan Institute of Design Promotion.
Today, June 29th, is the anniversary of the establishment of the WDO, and this day has been
designated as World Industrial Design Day, and various events will be held around the world tocelebrate the anniversary under a common theme. This year's shared theme is “Leadership,” andin Japan, this theme has been replaced with the question, “What kind of leadership should
designers take?” We try to think about the future prospects through a dialogue between
professional designers and students from the three member universities in Japan.
Yakushi: Good evening, my name is Tadayuki Yakushi, I graduated from Musashino Art University

in 1996 and started working in car design at Toyota Industries Corporation, then moved to aforklift truck and industrial vehicle design more than ten years ago. As for what kind of person I
am, I like new things and things related to cars. I have been involved in extracurricular activities
within the company, such as developing compressed air cars. I have also participated in a speed
challenge with that car and obtained a Guinness World Record. I volunteered to move here because
we have a large share of the industrial vehicle market, and I felt that it would be worthwhile. Thanks
to this, as a team, we have won the GOOD DESIGN AWARD BEST 100 and GOLD AWARD, aswell as the German iF Design Award, the Red Dot Design Award, and the DIA, an international
design award in China. I am a person who enjoys industrial vehicle design.
Regarding the theme of this issue, I decided to focus on products as in Let's talk about “products”
of the future. It has been nearly ten years since the saying “Experiences are more important thanproducts,” but in many cases, experiences cannot happen without products, and I felt, relatively
speaking, that Monodzukuri (manufacturing) was being neglected, which is what prompted me toraise this issue this time. In reality, Japan exports mostly industrial products, and manufacturing

is essential for the economy to function. Industrial vehicle designers such as ourselves are not only
designing the exterior of forklifts, but are also involved in a wide range of areas, including UI/UX
and content creation such as video. In such a situation, what kind of leadership can industrial
designers take once again in “Monodzukuri (manufacturing) Japan?” How can we become amanufacturing powerhouse again? And how can we become a manufacturing superpower again?
I would like to discuss these and other issues together.
-Leadership for industrial designers in dealing with social issues

Shimada, Musashino Art University: There are major issues that need to be addressed if Japan isto thrive as a manufacturing powerhouse. These include environmental issues, marine plastics,
and an aging population. The future leaders are the young people who have studied the SDGs, butwill they follow the idea of making Japan a manufacturing superpower? What we can do as
designers are being able to present exciting solutions. It is the role of industrial designers to presentinteresting and exciting solutions, not a bad future. To achieve this, we believe it is necessary toreview the challenges to current production routes and other problems and create a newfoundation.
Yakushi: I like your words “exciting solutions.” What is the story that people who have studied theSDGs do not follow manufacturing?
Shimada: The young people of today have in mind the responsibility to use and create. If designers

or corporations continue to create new things and focus only on the competition for sales, the twosides will clash.
Yakushi: Our designers' concept of monodzukuri is rather to aim for good things, including theSDGs. I am a business person myself, so perhaps this is what I feel, but I still have the viewpointthat the economy is important. That is why we cannot talk only about dreams. We, industrial
designers, aim to create and realize excitement.
Iwaguma, Tama Art University: The urgency of mass production leading to environmental

destruction is only actively so because we are interested in design and in that industry. Even if theproblem of ocean pollution is mentioned on TV, people still buy plastic bags in real life; even if
they know that using items sold at 100-yen stores will prevent the real design from being created,
they still buy and use them because they are convenient. The number of people who think about
and buy things is limited. Therefore, the ideal situation would be one in which products chosen
without much thought by people outside the design industry end up being environmentallyconscious and well thought-out. We believe that the role of designers in the future will be totranslate issues and incorporate them into products.
Yakushi: It may be true that if the awareness of the volume zone is not changed, only some people

will change. Of course, there will be a ripple effect from that, but if everything sold in 100-yenstores is made entirely of recycled plastic or recycled-based materials, surely the impact will begreat, and it would be nice to be able to play a role in such a field. Taking leadership without
feeling leadership is a kind of ideal design.
-How to motivate people to create and leverage their individual strengths

Maruyama, Chiba University: Manufacturing will not disappear in the future. I believe that making

things and music are similar in some ways. Music has existed since ancient times, and its styles
and fashions vary from era to era, and what people like depends on the person. Similarly, there arecountless demands for products.
In terms of enriching the economy, the larger the scale, the more people are involved. I think it isimportant for everyone to exert their utmost efforts, but I find it difficult to keep everyone
motivated.
Yakushi: Are the products and music similar? I thought frankly. It is interesting that you think

differently than I do. Did you have any inspiration?
Maruyama: We can live without it, but if we have it, it enriches our minds. I think that products

have two kinds of value. One is the functional value that is indispensable, and the other is the extravalue. In other words, like the reason for choosing the same kind of thing. Those are the parts thatyou don't need to have but are enriched when you have them.
Yakushi: We designers are supposed to add extra value, such as ease of use while keeping thefunctionally indispensable parts in mind. your point of view is that these parts are not necessary. I
can sympathize with your point of view, that is, to sharpen the essence of the primitive products
by eliminating the parts that are not necessary.
As for motivation, as I mentioned in several design awards, one person can never do it alone.
Generally speaking, if there is a clear vision, everyone can move toward it. If we can only see thenear, each of us will lose motivation. Ideally, the leader should set a clear and exciting goal in thedistance, and each person should work toward it. This is the power of design and designers, soplease try your best.
-Leadership for diversification

Saita, Tama Art University: I majored in car design in college, so I focused my report on theautomotive industry. I think that industrial designers of the future should take leadership fordiversification by gradating the distinction between things. There are various global issues, butwhat Japan must tackle more seriously now is the aging of the population. In the realm of mobility,
there are many problems, such as designs based on the assumption that people are physically fit,
and the distinction between the able-bodied and the handicapped. The sense of discrimination

caused by the distinction and the fact that they are forced to show something they do not want toshow openly are major problems. Possible solutions to these psychological problems include
gradating the genre and looking to develop it as walking aid mobility that can be used by ablebodied people and young people. As products become more common, people inevitably lose theircuriosity. Sometimes products communicate better than words. This is an opportunity to redesign
the hearts and minds of people through Japanese industrial design.
Yakushi: You said opportunity, and I feel the same way. As a country that is aging ahead of the restof the world and is capable of manufacturing, Japan can be a benchmark for the rest of the world.
It has the potential to experiment with various things. I thought the expression "gradation" wasinteresting. Does it mean a greater variety of products?
Saita: When we make a distinction, the possibility of discrimination arises. I wondered if we could

make it seamless.
Yakushi: The balance between dedicated and general-purpose products is quite difficult. Whether

to provide many types of exclusive products or general-purpose products could be an issue forgradation. One of the ideals may be something like date glasses. Eyeglasses, which are supposed
to be corrective devices, have become fashionable, and wearing them has become a positiveexperience. The performance of prosthetic legs for the disabled is improving, and people are
becoming envious of them. Human body augmentation may become one of the keywords to enrich
the world.
Yamanaka, Chiba University: It is based on the assumption that everyone operates on their own.

What if we assume a world of automation? However, there is a part of me that wonders if everyone
needs personal mobility.
Yakushi: When the era of fully automated driving comes, even social issues will change dramatically.

-Shaping the lifestyles of the future

Kita, Tama Art University: I think that designers need to create a new generation of norms andestablish these norms in our daily lives. In the product industry, there are many initiatives torecycle and use recycled materials with an eye toward a recycling-oriented society. For the sake ofthe future earth, we need to reduce waste materials and recycle them using limited resources.
However, many of the products currently on the market as eco-friendly are more difficult to use
than virgin materials and are only eco-friendly, but on the other hand, many of them cause users
to have negative feelings. Because people now take state-of-the-art technology for granted, people
are also sensitive to inconveniences. It is necessary to create products that are not temporary butestablished. I would like to create products not only to achieve product sales and goals but alsowith experiences that will help create the norm in the future.
Yakushi: It is very difficult to make a certain product establish itself in the daily lives of users, isn't

it? That's a good point of view. For example, forklift trucks are made of steel, so the recycling rateis nearly 99%. In other words, the image of appearance and kindness to the earth and people are
not necessarily synchronized. In traditional industrial design, we tend to focus on the look and feelof new product launches, but always having the perspective of making things take root is a way of
thinking that will lead to a perspective on how products should be 20 or 30 years from now andwill be to your advantage.
Kanai, Musashino Art University: Japan was once known as a manufacturing powerhouse becauseof the industrial products on sale that displayed a high level of Japanese technology. Before people
began to think in terms of “experiences” rather than “products,” people used to buy things because
they admired their quality and luxury of them. Today, many people buy products based on whether
or not they can get closer to their ideal lifestyles and views on life. They are emphasizing bringing
their lifestyles and values closer to their ideals through products. It is not only about high quality
and luxury, but also about manufacturing that is unique to Japan, where a culture of respecting theother person permeates the market. It is an advantage to provide exactly what the other person
wants and ideal values. It would be possible to create products that can only be made in Japan bytaking advantage of the quality and the Japanese culture.
Yakushi: When differences are seen as originality and uniqueness, they become value. I would likeeveryone to have a perspective of reality. Without idealism and the perspective of reality as KoolEye, it will lack persuasiveness.
Yamanaka: Does race matter in design? To be honest, I cannot tell which country people designed

which piece by looking at the finished work. The same goes for design taste, and it would not be
the case if non-Japanese could not take care of it. Are the Japanese meticulous and is that theirstrength in design? If it is, then they are not losing to Tesla and Apple.
Yakushi: True. That is why it is important to know how to produce difference and originality. For

example, it is France that is good at this, and French products can be sold at a high price eventhough they should be no different from others. What is different is the coordination and branding.
Branding is not just about advertising. In the category of manufacturing, a brand should beestablished in terms of continuity and commitment to quality.
Kanai: When designers are creating, the environment and lifestyle in which they have lived up to

now will naturally be reflected in what they design, no matter how hard they try. Even if you are
not conscious of it, your past life will bleed through. It is not all about making something better
than Tesla or Apple. There are fields in which the Japanese are suited, and I think it is possible tocreate a character in other areas.
Yakushi: We must and should look at products globally. Let's go abroad to know what it is to be

Japanese. I can emotionally sympathize with Mr. Kanai's statement. That is why I would like youto go abroad to know what is uniquely Japanese and try to create specific products and phenomena.
It will become your unique and solid originality.
Togami, Musashino Art University: Future manufacturing should be tailored to future lifestyles.

Shopping, learning, and work are becoming increasingly online and automated. Not only will
digitalization progress in the future, but we will not be able to completely return to the situation
before the COVID-19 pandemic. Industrial designers always design from the standpoint of theuser and are in a position to create a new normal. I think that industrial design should build designs
in line with the new normal.
Yakushi: I am glad you focused on the fundamentals of industrial design. It is the opinion ofindustrial designers of yesteryear that the leadership of an industrial designer is to design each
item he or she is involved in. For example, when I use a Sori Yanagi kettle in my daily life, I feelthat it is well thought out. It is easy to use and can be used for a long time. This can be achievedby simply doing the basics of what is called industrial design.
-Design and leadership from the perspective of the manufacturing system

Yamanaka, Chiba University: I think there is a possibility of bottom-up production as if the user

makes the product, rather than a top-down form of providing the product to the consumer. I amnot positive about product consumption. Consumers are becoming more conscious of how they
spend their time, and they tend to spend money on experiences and things that return asinvestments. As designers, we need to create things that can become experiences, rather than thedualism of products and experiences. Things that allow users to reflect on themselves throughthem. For example, instead of providing tableware, we should design “Rokuro,” or a potter's wheel,to create opportunities for the whole of Japan to engage in small craftsmanship and regain a senseof humanity.
Yakushi: DtoC and CtoC are closer to bottom-up. Manufacturing, which develops away from

corporate activities, will become even freer in the future. Until now, it has been the norm to hide
everything until the launch of a new product, but there are ways to be more open. He suggested
another approach where industrial designers can ask users directly instead of developing by playing
the role of a user. Platforms that systematize are strong.
Saita: There is a growing movement of people working together to grow something that is still inits infancy, such as crowdfunding and YouTube Super Chat.
Yakushi: Open operating systems are becoming the norm, and there is a movement among major

companies to collect technologies widely in the form of open innovation. In such an open
environment, industrial designers would like to take a leadership role.
Kato, Chiba University: Manufacturing will never disappear. Therefore, what we can devise as

designers is to create a system or product that allows one product to be used for a long time.
Industrial designers will come up with mechanisms that add value, such as software that can beupdated, recyclable, and so on. Especially in Japan, there has been such a culture since the Edo
period, and it is said that almost everything in Edo was recycled. Kintsugi*, for example, is not only
repairing broken vessels but also upcycling them into something better than before. As an
industrial designer, I think it is important to create an overall system that can be used for a longtime.
*Kintsugi（⾦継ぎ） is a traditional Japanese art form, where broken porcelain or earthenware is
repaired using resin or lacquer mixed with powdered and liquid gold, silver, or platinum.
Yakushi: He gave us a business perspective. It is important to think about designing for feasibility

as an economy, not just a nice future because it is designed. It is a difficult task just to draw adream, which of course should be respected, but to make it a reality is several times more difficult.
It is only by making it a business that it will reach the consumer, and without reaching that point,
the influence of industrial designers will not be felt. A design approach that considers business isa very good point of view.
Kato: Japan's “mottainai” culture is essentially also a part of its weakness: Japan is a resource-poor

country. The movement to conserve because of the lack of resources has been able to turn this intoa strength.
-Conclusion

Yakushi: I am sure that you are looking at various “products” daily, but I would like you to broaden

your perspective and look beyond the media and Japan. However, BtoB information is not readily
available even if you go to get it. The advantageous parts of Japanese industrial products, such assensors and materials, are becoming harder and harder to find information and performance. Forindustrial designers to lead Japanese manufacturing, I would like you to continue to gather
information and look at not only the final products but also the technical aspects.
Finally, as a designer who makes products, I would like to reiterate that I do not want you to stop
just dreaming. It is important to have dream, and it is tough to develop a concept. However, I
would like you to think about what you need to do to give shape to your design in the end. Thankyou very much for your time today.