COVER STORY • 6Interview with Professor Datuk Dr. Norma Mansor, Director of the Social Wellbeing ResearchCentre at Universiti Malaya, former Secretary of the National Economic Advisory Council of
MalaysiaPursuing Well-Being in Asiawith Knowledge of Aging

By Japan SPOTLIGHT
An aging society is not necessarily a threat to the economy. Depending on relevant policies, it could add
benefits to the economy. We could take full advantage of such benefits or get to know how to minimize
their costs through an international mutual learning process with evidence-based information.
Dr. Norma Mansor is one of the most distinguished experts on this issue with her experience of working
for some prestigious international organizations such as the UNDP, ILO, OECD and ADB. Our interview
with her follows.
(Interviewed on Sept. 7, 2023)

Her Working Experience on
Aging Societies
JS: You are one of the world’s experts

when it comes to aging societies.
Could you talk about your work
related to aging societies withvarious international organizations?

JS: You mentioned work forinternational organizations such as
the OECD and ADB, and havealready answered my second
question regarding the center. Agingused to be considered a domestic
issue but now seems to be a global
issue. When do you think this issue
became global in nature?

Mansor: My work on aging started two
Mansor: Well, the aging population has mainly
decades ago when I began looking at social
happened in developed countries but for the
security issues among older persons in Asia,
past decade I would say developing nations
especially post-retirement. The OECD
have started to experience it. In Asia, forcommissioned this study and it highlighted theexample, it started with Japan and then China,
gaps in income security, especially among
South Korea, and then Singapore. This madeolder Malaysians. I continue to study this area
Dr. Norma Mansor
us feel that we had to focus on aging and wewith some other work funded by our local
had to share experiences between different countries in order for us
university and the Malaysian government, but the more intense work
to learn from each other. The demographic transition or
on aging was when I joined the Social Security Research Centre.
demographic shift where older people form a larger portion of theThis center was established specifically to look at income and oldpopulation is becoming a problem not just among the advanced
age financial protection. The main task was to advance research on
countries but also among the developing nations. So that’s whenaging and social protection.The Malaysia Employees Provident Fundaging research started to come to the front of the research focus.
(EPF) is the provider of the endowment for the financing of thecenter, and the interest is to see whether the savings – theJS: According to your explanation of your career, I
employees provident fund – is sufficient for the people’s needs after
thought that you started your academic career as aretirement. That is when we got more involved in the work on aging,sort of microeconomist because you focused on
as we felt that there were inadequate studies, data and informationsocial security policy. However, aging is now a macroon aging. The center seeks to have an inventory of work related topolicy issue, so I guess perhaps the aging issue has
aging and that is when we embarked on the Malaysia Ageing andbecome a macro policy issue, and then it becomes a
Retirement Survey which is a longitudinal study and is nationallyglobal issue because macro policy must haverepresentative. That is one of our efforts to fill in the gap forinternational repercussions for the global economy.
evidence-based policymaking.
34 Japan SPOTLIGHT • November / December 2023

https://www.jef.or.jp/journal/

Mansor: You are correct. I started looking at individuals and whether
they have enough coverage or enough income for retirement. But
then it became a national issue because the impact is on theeconomy. When the population starts to shrink and the working age
population shrinks, the dependency of the older generation on theworking population becomes bigger. Therefore you cannot look at it
just as a micro issue or an individual issue but as a national issue.
When it is a national issue, it is also interrelated globally as it affects
the global economy too.

Mission of Social Wellbeing Research Centre

So you see the seriousness of the demographic transition from“black to silver” (which is what we call the silver generation) and thiswill impact not just on the care or the health side but also theeconomy as a whole because these countries, especially countries
that have not generated enough surplus and savings, will haveproblems unless they start planning from now. It is the surplus andthe savings that you will earn during good economic times that canbe used to finance the social system that you are bound to have. So I
think that the risk of an aging society and depopulation will have amore negative impact on the least developed countries. This will leadto another problem which is old age poverty if it is not well managed.

JS: Concerning the Social Wellbeing Research Centre

JS: Japan, South Korea and China are now facing a

Mansor: The center is funded by an endowment fund from EPF andthe responsibility is of course not only to create value for thecontributors but also to take care of the well-being of thecontributors. We don’t see them as separate items or that you canmake a clear demarcation between economic growth and social wellbeing, because growth has to be inclusive. So it is essentially part ofan inclusive growth. When you have a stronger social protection(which is the other name that is globally accepted), protecting every
member of the society is basically about human rights. People haveto have certain standards of living or quality of living when they arein a nation. Social function and economic function cannot be
separated. They are very much intertwined. When you have strongsocial protection, you also have a strong economy and I thinklearning from Japan, for instance, or from other advanced nations
such as European nations showed how social protection almost
became a prerequisite to development. When some of the social
protection instruments were introduced in advanced countries, it was
not only when they were richer but in many cases even poorer than
Malaysia. So I look at economic history and I feel that social
protection is a prerequisite, almost. We should not see it as a cost
but as an investment towards economic growth.

Mansor: ASEAN countries to varying degrees are following suit. It
starts with Singapore which is facing an acute aging problem andthen we have Thailand, Vietnam and Malaysia which are fast catchingup. As a comparison, it took France 115 years to age, while it took
Malaysia only 25 years. So it’s becoming more serious. Thus the
Asian Development Bank has launched a project on the aging
population and how to address this very issue. It has engaged ourcenter, using our project to become the example of a longitudinal
study, because in the longitudinal study you can track the same
person over time. They want other countries to have that same
database as well; it’s important in order for us to track what is thesocial profile and economic conditions, the health conditions, of theaging societies going forward, especially when we are facing atsunami or maybe in our case a smaller wave of aging.

at Universiti Malaya of which you are now thedirector, is its focus on economic growth or doessocial well-being refer more to social welfare?

serious risk of depopulation as an outcome of fewer
children and a low birth rate and aging. How about
ASEAN countries that are facing the same crisis?

Basic Consequences of the Aging Society
JS: Looking at the basic consequences of aging

JS: The key word which stands out from yoursocieties and depopulation, my particular concern isdepopulation. Economic growth must decline as aresult of a fall in population. However, social wellbeing might be a different story because GDP per
capita might increase due to depopulation. Overall,what do you think would be the basic consequenceof aging or depopulation upon the total economy?

Mansor: Aging is not only affecting a few but nearly all countries,
with the exception of perhaps Africa and India. According to theUnited Nations, the number of persons aged 80 and older is
projected to triple from 143 million in 2019 to 426 million in 2050.

Mansor: There is such a thing called the demographic dividend. The
first demographic gains happen where population growth was
smaller or the depopulation speed was less rapid, and because of theeconomic activities that were still growing, you have higher growth.
But when you talk about the second demographic dividend, which I
have written about with Professor Naohiro Ogawa of Tokyo
University, we discuss about the potential of the second
demographic dividend. A lot depends on how the country plans forthe demographic shift; if you have invested enough in education, in
training and in health, then the older generation can still contribute toAging Society in Asia
presentation is inclusive growth. This is a key wordwhen talking about Asian countries’ economic policy
goals. With this in mind, how do you assess aging
and the population around the world as well as in
Asia? I’m particularly interested in Asia which is now
exposed to the risk of serious aging issues.

Japan SPOTLIGHT • November / December 2023

35

the economy, like in Japan, for instance, you are able to utilize youraging population, or you take the gains from the aging population forthem to be productive in the economy as well and pay taxes. So I
think this is one way where a country undergoing depopulation canstart planning and upgrade the production of economic activities toimprove productivity through technology and through other means
including AI. Countries need to come together and discuss and learn
from each other and this will create the kind of learning we shouldhave within the region and globally. Our aging survey is also part of
the “Gateway to Global Aging” which is coordinated by the Universityof Southern California and we are learning from advanced countries
who have similar studies. Hopefully, these kinds of learning will help
us improve our policies to support the changes in the population ofeach country.
JS: You mentioned that the consequences ofdepopulation seem to have a wide range of impacts.
That means that the policies to improve the situation
should also have wide coverage. What kind ofpolicies would be important to cope with an aging
society? There should be many policies
encompassing public health, social welfare, andindustrial policy. Would you say that we should try toachieve a mixture of different policies?

Mansor: Exactly. It cannot be one policy to address a problem whichis also multisectoral. Aging is a multidisciplinary concern and it isclosely intertwined with the care sector and the economy, which willplay a significant role in our society. The economy is going more
towards AI and technology and those who cannot participate incertain sectors can participate more in the care economy, because
the care economy is going to be huge in some countries that are
aging faster. Training and education in social work and not justindustrial work should be emphasized. I wouldn’t say it is a problem
but more of an opportunity – how do we pivot our policies toconsider aging as a viable economic sector? According to data fromthe EU, the silver economy contributed over 4.2 trillion euros to theEU’s GDP and sustained over 78 million jobs across EU states in thelast few years. This shows some of the potential that we can see
coming from the aging population.
JS: How about in Malaysia – does the government

pursue an inter-ministerial approach?

Mansor: The Malaysian government is looking at the issue much
more seriously as the aging population was also documented in the
12th five-year Malaysia Economic Plan which started in 2021. We
have to work harder and faster in order not to miss this opportunity
because we have this window now – our first demographic dividend
ended in 2020 and now we have to work towards getting the second
gains from our demographic shift. If we don’t invest in better healthcare and in executing policies that enable older people to contribute,then you will miss that potential. So this window is what we at the
36 Japan SPOTLIGHT • November / December 2023

center and a few other organizations, including the EPF, Social
Security Organisation (SOCSO) and the Central Bank of Malaysia, all
are working towards. Providing evidence to the government tosupport policies. It is not just evidence from Malaysia, it needs to bebenchmarked against evidence from other countries.

Utility of Evidence-Based Approach to Aging
Issue
JS: An evidence-based approach is called for and it

must be effective in quantitative analysis to provide
some focal points about what needs to be addressedin an aging society. The question is, since this is arelatively new issue, in achieving an evidence-based
approach do you think statistics are good enough inyour country, or in Asia?

Mansor: Some countries have what they call a household income
and expenditure survey aside from the census data. Malaysia has
conducted such a survey, but it does not trace the same households
or the same individuals. So databases such as the Malaysia Ageing
and Retirement Survey (MARS) or similar surveys will provide theevidence that the government needs in order to track the progress ofeach individual. So you will know the health of Mr. A because thefirst survey that we did was completed in 2019 and the second
survey was completed in 2022, so you can track information overtime. We are planning to do this every three years looking at people
aged over 40 in Malaysia. It is a randomized sample that is nationally
representative to see not just health issues but also socioeconomic
variables – whether they are employed and in which sector, what
their level of savings are, and so on. All of these are documented
through the aging and retirement survey and we hope that this will
fill in the gap of the progress over the years. The ADB and JICA areusing the survey as an example for other countries in the region to
conduct similar surveys. At our center we have worked with Vietnam,
Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Indonesia in order to implement similar
surveys and to compare and see what we can learn from eachother. Multilateral organizations are supporting countries in theregion to look at the current aging scenario.
JS: A large budget will be required to complement

data necessary for improving aging societies. Thatwould perhaps pose some costs for governments
and there is a need to convince them of the utility ofthis analysis.

Mansor: Certainly. I think some countries are investing in thestudies, for example, Indonesia is supported by the government andin Malaysia we are talking to the Department of Statistics to support
MARS. We have also been getting support from the Health
Retirement Study (HRS) of the University of Michigan and from the
ADB and the Social Security Organization (SOCSO). So, it doesn’tnecessarily 100% have to come from the government; there can bejoint financing from multilateral organizations as well as technicalassistance from social security organizations in different countries.
So it is definitely very costly but I would say that understanding theaging phenomenon in a country should not be seen as a cost but as
an investment. How do we prevent things from getting worse? How
do we take this opportunity to pivot to an economic path fromrelying on one cohort to include another cohort as part of the
productive capacity in the country? Therefore it’s best to see this notjust as a cost but as an investment.

International Collaboration in Achieving
Mutual Benefits
JS: International collaboration through internationalorganizations is truly important because it’sconducive to a mutually beneficial analysis, and also
maybe in terms of data collection. Such international
collaboration would be very useful to enrich the
database.

Mansor: Agreed. I would add that when researchers are sharing datawith researchers in other countries, this is when innovative solutions
can emerge. The government cannot hold on to data just to be usedin its own policies and it should be shared by scientists globally sothat we can learn from each other; and learn from each other’s dataand identify trends that lead to innovative solutions. In every country,
while there are similarities, there are also differences, so we shouldbe able to see that what works in one country may not work inanother; and unless you have quality data you will not be able toanalyze and propose policies based on the data. Therefore, having
good research and good data is key to making good policies in any
country.
JS: Would international collaboration among

researchers in different countries also be very usefulto promote knowledge?

Mansor: Exactly, and that is why we are part of the Gateway to
Global Aging – so is Japan – and we share data, we do comparative
work, and we look at each other’s scenarios and each other’s data inorder for us to learn or to share issues and challenges that we havein our countries, as well as some good success stories and failures.
There is a lot to learn from each other. The Gateway to Global Agingis part of the University of Michigan’s Health Retirement Study (HRS
study) and this database is comparable to more than 50 countries in
the world. We hope that more countries will join in and we canexchange information that will meet the end goal of innovative
solutions for each country.

collaborations. Do you think it would be possible toachieve this kind of outcome among Asian countries
on the aging issue?
Mansor: The ADB is taking the lead among Asian countries for us tocompare data. We are also a part of the OECD group looking at the
self-employed and those who are not covered by social protection,
because in many countries social protection covers less than 50% of
the population. The ADB is also playing a role in getting everyone on
the same platform so that we can learn from each other, share andcompare some of the impacts of our policies and see whether thiscan be replicated or localized to another country, especially amongdeveloping countries.
JS: Just one follow-up question. There are

institutional aspects that must also be important toaddress aging issues, such as insurance for longterm care or other life insurance systems. Caregiving
is a very important part of an aging society, so
institutional questions could be elaborated by suchinternational exchanges of views and exchanges of
information. Do you think the ADB is working on thatissue as well or will it start to?

Mansor: The findings from the research show that many people are
not supported by formal care but informal care, i.e. by family
members, and then you have no choice but to look at the institutional
capacity. Malaysia is an example. We are working towards a stronger
social protection system and the care system that you mentioned –the long-term care and social insurance – is something that we haveto look into. I know that Japan is ahead in this area and you haveinsurance for long-term care. It is non-existent in Malaysia; it falls
within the responsibility of the Ministry of Health. Maybe because we
take it for granted (because our healthcare is universal) we arehoping that the Ministry of Health will be managing this, but wewould be imposing more stress on the ministry if it were to take careof it exclusively. Therefore, Malaysia will have to look at othercountries such as Japan to see how we can start contributing tolong-term care. Not everyone can contribute, but for those who canand equally for those who are not able to contribute, we have to be
inclusive – long-term care and services to be treated as a publicnecessity. So the government will have to support this joint
partnership with individuals, institutions and the private sector while
also engaging communities that will have to play a role because thisis about enriching lives in the coming years and decades, to ensure
the well-being of the older population.

JS: What is the final goal to be achieved byinternational collaboration in terms of the OECD? To
my knowledge, benchmarking exercises or peer
reviews would be the final outcome of international

Written with the cooperation of Joel Challender who is a translator, interpreter,
researcher and writer specializing in Japanese disaster preparedness.

Japan SPOTLIGHT • November / December 2023

37