Interview
Interview with Prof.Kazumi Matsushige

TOWARDS FUTURE MOLECULAR COMPUTER AND VENTURE SPIRITS
build ourselves, we try to build.
Recently, you have been working in the field ofI:physics and engineering, the process is changing. In
the past, physicists or scientists would do some basic

molecular memory. Perhaps you could first tell us whatthat is about.

research, and engineers would use the discoveries orinventions to create something. It used to be like a

Yes. Molecules contain information themselves.
They have energetically different states, and they con-M:

bucket relay. But, these days, there’s a fuzzier boundary between the two. New products for the market-

tain both mechanical and physical information. So, if
we could read information from this molecular struc-those with significant impact-are very much based on
hard science. So the boundary between science andture, it would be a great advancement. For instance,
if the electric treatment is accomplished in nano-scale,

I: Of course in the science and engineering fields in

I: Prof. Matsushige, you have been doing research inthe memory density will be 1 million times that oftoday’s CDs and DVDs. Now, human genomes also

Japan, traditionally, chemists would do nothing but
chemistry, physicists would do only physics, and engi-

various fields-most recently in organic molecular structures using SPM, measuring and arranging nanom-

contain a lot of information, but the data there is sequential and composed of a group of molecules. With

neers would just make things. With you, however,Professor Matsushige, you seem to have all sides ofeter-scale objects. But this has not always been thecase throughout your career. In fact, you used to bemolecular technology, a single molecule can containfar more information than the human genome. Some-the process down. I think that’s great. Do you think
this is because of the influence of the United States?

in high-pressure physics at one stage. But now, yourwork has been in cutting-edge technology in molecu-

one who studies nanometer-scale objects knows that
one molecule is smaller than one nanometer. More-

Is it “American” in nature?
No, I don’t think you could call it “American.”lar memory and molecular electronics. You have
moved from one area of science to another. Perhaps

over, molecules themselves have several bits of information, so you can multiply the capacity by the num-

When I moved from one lab to another, from physics
to polymer science, or whatever, the boundaries be-

you could start by telling us the motivation behindthese changes.

ber of bits, increasing memory capacity even more.
Of course the real question is how do we develop thistween different branches of science were not veryclear. Take, for instance, medical engineering. In Ja-

M: Originally I studied physics at undergraduatelevel, and then I moved into engineering for my mas-industrially? This has to do with how technology will
advance in the future.

pan, there are medical researchers and there are engineers. But, in America, there is an area called medi-

ters degree. Then I went to the United States to study
macromolecular science as a Ph. D. student, and now

And also, the question of how one can use thistechnology needs to be addressed, right?

I:

cal engineering, where these people can do both.
Perhaps this has had some influence on me.

I am back in Japan. Because I moved from one place
to another, my area of research also changed, depend-

M: Yes. Another question is how quickly this works.

I: Yes, and now you are getting more and more into

Of course, not all information needs to be accessed

electronics and engineering involving molecules-es-

ing on what my lab was doing at the time. Perhaps I
am easily influenced. But I always seem to have thisquestion of “why” and “how” things work. I feelquickly. Slow information can also be useful. It’s amatter of preference.
Again, molecular memories need some molecularI:

pecially a single molecule. So the question seems to
be changing from the why to the how-from physics
to engineering and electronics. Could you tell us morethat I have always been involved in the basic areas ofscience. If my lab specializes in high-pressure phys-rearrangement and the modification of molecular
structures. Would you go into that in more detail ?

about this recent, innovative field, and how this could
affect our future lives, for those who are not up to

ics, I do that. When high pressure is applied to anorganic molecule, the structure changes dramatically

M: Yes. Originally I was in the field of physics, as I
said before. If there was a need to change some prop-

M: Single-molecular electronics has a lot to do withbecause of weak intermolecular force. When a polymer made of carbons is involved, for instance, vari-erties of a molecule, chemists could do it, but notphysicists. Well, I began to wonder whether or not it

the future of computing. Now, computers are basically made of silicon-a semiconductor. We have beenous things can happen. For example, one of the funthings is that you can create a diamond by applying

was possible to physically change molecular structures.
“Isn’t there a way to use physics for this?” “Perhaps

making computers smaller and smaller-more compact
all the time. But there seems to be a limit to thishigh pressure and high temperature to such carbonbase molecules. I was also involved in the study ofusing an SPM could help.” “This microscope can help
us touch(?) or arrange molecules.” Now, other people

approach, at the sub-micron level. Another issue isthe economic aspect. Making silicon-based comput-

fracture. How and why do materials fracture, andwhat are their origins? Incidentally, SPM is one of the

had the same idea, but I did not worry too much about
what other people were doing.

ers extremely small will cost manufacturers a lot ofmoney, so they are a little scared, and are hesitating

modern contributions to the study of molecular science and electronics. First, Drs. G. Binnig, and H.

Last year, Dr. Shirakawa won a Nobel prize for thesynthesis of polyacethylene film and its electric appli-

to move in that direction. An alternative method isof course to use an altogether different idea-not toRoher won a Nobel prize by this invention. When I
first read their paper in a journal, I thought to myself,

cation. Well, ten years ago we were doing almost
exactly the same thing-by using an SPM to change

make things smaller but to use smaller items: tochange from inorganic silicon crystals to organic mol-

“Maybe I can do this in my lab-but much more cheaply
and simply. So we built the whole thing-software

the chemical structure from paraffin to acethylene andelectric characteristics.

ecules. The extreme application of such an approachis to use a single molecule. This would be a target forand everything, and it cost us, back then, only one
million yen. This was not a lot of money for SPM. So,

I: Using an SPM?
M: Yes, acetylene is a structure where one hydro-

the future. But ultimately the future goal is to createa molecular computer. For this, we need chemists

after we actually constructed the SPM machine, wewrote up a paper about our cheap machine and pre-gen atom is attached to one carbon atom, while in
ethylene structure like paraffin molecules there are

and physicists. We will also need computer scientists
and experts in other fields since this new type of com-sented it at a conference. This turned out to be very
popular at the time, since an SPM was normally very

two hydrogen atoms for each carbon atom. So bysome method, if you can get rid of one hydrogen

puter may not have the same architecture as today’s
Von Neumann type. So, different fields must cooper-

expensive, perhaps over 10 million yen.
One main philosophy I have kept throughout my work

atom, you could end up with acetylene. So using theprobe tip of an SPM, you can eliminate one hydrogenate for the development of these new computers. Indeed, I think this will be more exiting and interesting.

is that if we can build something ourselves, we should.
This was what led to us building the inexpensive SPM

atom from molecules with the ethylene structure, dramatically changing the electrical properties of the mol-

I: Yes, you are referring to inter-disciplinary joint research.

that I have just mentioned. So equipment development is something we have been involved in-in highecule.
Now this isn’t as much science as it is engineering.

at inter-disciplinary research. Have you started something to this end, systematically building a research struc-

Professor
Kazumi Matsushige
Kyoto University
Interviewer : I

Motoichi Ohtsu
JSAP INTERNATIONAL Editor

pressure physics and in other areas. Anything we canI:
M: Right. In reality, in science and technology, or

technology is becoming blurred.

M:date with this particular field?

It seems, though, that the Japanese are not very goodture to make such cooperation a reality?

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Interview
M: Yes, I like that type of inter-disciplinary study. I
know some chemists with whom I’ve been working.

sages. We need to start with the technology of today and connect it with the technology of tomorrow.

I: When we think of foreign researchers, we immedi-

fine to join hands with foreign researchers.

In a sense, we would like to go beyond the boundaries.

Recently, nanometer-scale technology has produced
a simple electric device using simple principles with

ately think of walls and barriers. Do you have any
good ideas to overcome these barriers and promote

I: Do you think this will become more of a norm, tostudy and cooperate beyond the boundaries of scien-

electrodes and molecules.
Another thing is that this whole concept is based oninternational cooperation?
Well, one is seen in nano-technology. Whentific fields?
Yes, individually everyone needs to have someM:

the fact that electrons move back and forth. Well,
maybe there is another world where this doesn’t have

we try to bring in experts, we want everyone to come,regardless of their age, field, nationality, race, etc. It

foundations, but in the long-run, one needs to havea broader perspective. Historically, the boundary be-

to happen. For instance, pulse signals. The energy islow, but a high speed is obtained. So there are a lot

would be great to leave the traditional restrictivenessof the scientific community behind and work together

tween physics and chemistry, for example, hasn’t always been clear. That is a rather recent phenomenon.

of things to be investigated out there.

I: Certainly. Will these molecular computers become

beyond these boundaries. Perhaps this would speed
up the process.

They both deal with how matters work and what happens in nature. When you think about it, there isn’t

more than just a concept in the near future? What
year, approximately, do you think we can expect mo-

I: If you want to promote new and innovative research, you need to train young researchers to takeall that much difference between physics and chemistry.

lecular computers to materialize? When could thisdream become a reality?

this to the next generation. I believe this is important. You used to teach students at a university, and

I: You mean, in terms of history, it is a recent thing to

M: I think perhaps this is too early to predict. The

distinguish physics and chemistry as separate fields?

road map for silicon computers is usually based on 5-

now you are involved in both research and the training of young leaders, as well as being involved in the

M: Right.
I: Okay, let’s discuss something a bit different now.

or 10-year periods. As a target, though, moleculardevices, such as molecular displays and memory, could

Venture Business Laboratory (VBL), which we will comeback to later. What difficulties do you face while do-

What do you think of the role of Japan, the advantages of the Japanese scientific community, and thebe out in as early as 10 years. It may take 15 to 20
years to assemble these various devices to make a

M: Well, it doesn’t matter what the research topics

leadership of Japan in the world, as far as molecularelectronics is concerned?

functional unit. So, an actual computer-a molecular
computer-may appear in 25 years or so.

are. I think the basic thing is for each student to understand exactly what he is doing. We of course giveM:

ing all these things?

This area, I think, is one where we are still trying
to catch up. Now, the reason I am saying this needsM:

guidelines, but the question is what each student
wants to do and then how they should do it. We canto be stated. I think that in individual fields we are at
the highest levels. For instance, in synthetic technol-suggest, for instance, what type of experiment is necessary to find out this or that, and then the student

ogy, we lead the world. In silicon technology, thesame is true in several specific areas. In SPM, thewill know exactly what to do next. Developing further questions is also important. I believe that it willsame is again true. But the question is, “Who canbring these ideas and concepts together and comebe sufficient for master’s degree candidates to haveexperienced this line of thinking and developing pro-up with innovations?” For example, in America, thisis done very efficiently and quickly. People can comeup with new ideas and start doing things right away.

cess. If students develop this type of research idea, I
think it would be great. If they go into a corporation,
this type of attitude is of course necessary.

So in that sense, America and Europe lead Japan inthese areas of research.

Yes, that’s true. But a student will probably notrealize that unless he/she is taught this type of atti-

I: So you mean, academically they can work togetherI:

I: 1947 saw the arrival of transistors. In 1960, laser

tude to research. Do you do anything to help themrealize this?

technology was invented. But we haven’t really seen
anything super innovative or drastic for the last few

Yes, sometimes we hold research meetings
where students present their research work. They

I: You have mentioned molecular computers. When

decades. Perhaps something really big is about toemerge-not 30 years from now, but maybe evenpresent their work in detail, but of course we have amuch broader view-we ask them questions like, “WhyI think about molecules, I have this image of molecules being very fragile-if you touch them, they mightsooner?

M: Well, silicon computers have been around forare you doing this? If you found the answer, what
would you do with it next ? What is its significance indisappear. Today’s computers-those based on siliconare robust. They have motherboards, semiconduc-about 30 or 40 years. So perhaps a 30- or 40-year
period is appropriate when one considers the arrival

terms of future technologies ?” Questions like these,
I believe, will help them see what they are doing andtors, and integrated circuits. They have protective film.
If you drop them, they still work. They can be madeof a revolutionary device in computing.

I: By the way, speaking of molecular electronics andwhy they are doing it.
Yes, maybe this type of attitude will help us make arelatively flat and small. Very versatile. But now weare dealing with molecules. Aren’t they too fragile?

a future molecular computer, what can we do to promote this new field of study internationally?

transition from laser technology to molecular engineering.

Do you think you can resolve these issues by working
with people in different fields?

Molecular electronics and molecular computing
require physics, chemistry, applied sciences, computer

M:

M: Yes, in the conventional electrical science and

M: Yes, when you talk about using organic mattersfor computers, you are talking about something new.

science and architecture, electronic engineering, as
well as other fields. All this knowledge does not havestrange thing. Everyone else is using silicon, compound crystals, opto-electrical devices, and ions-things

But there are systems like that already. Human brains
are like that. Take the human brain and think of it as

to come from within Japan. There should be international cooperation. We need some creativity andthat are rather well-established. Now, we have noidea what’s going to happen with these molecules.

a computer. It works with a very low level of energy,
in ambient temperature, and it is very fast and canuniqueness. The Japanese may have their own ideas,
but the concepts may be uniform. Well, sometimes a

But even now students are getting interested in these
topics. So I think there is a future here.

deal vast amount of data. It not only handles calculations, but it can also estimate things and think about

person from another country with a different background comes up with very interesting, innovative

I: And when you teach these young people, you alsothings. So it should be possible to make such newcomputers using organic molecules. Of course, we

ideas. Of course, any time we discuss things like that,people talk about national strategies and research

What I hear is that you have a Venture Business Laboratory at Kyoto University, and that you are the facil-

cannot leap too far at one time. Think about thehistory of silicon and transistors. Then think about

strategies. Well, maybe we can look a little further
than that. What would be better for the world? For

ity director there. Maybe you could tell us more about
VBL, how we may transfer these new technologies to

how molecules can contain and communicate mes-

the advancement of the whole world? It’s perfectly

corporations, and how venture businesses started byjointly?

M: Yes. We need to try to encourage our young
researchers to work together-in science and technology. We need to have positive funding, too.

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engineering community, touching molecules(?) is ahave to worry about their relationship to companies.

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Interview
students can play a major and significant role in research in the future.

Next, I want to ask you about Kyoto-an ancient city. I
speak from the standpoint of someone in Tokyo, andnovation Center (IIC)” with a faculty staff of 16 tofurther promote such innovation activities as well as

M: Sure. The VBL is a program established under
the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science andI see that there aren’t so many big businesses in Kyoto.
So if the VBL is trying to work together with local

academia-industry collaboration, and I, as a directorof the IIC, am going to try several plans.

Technology. There are now 35 VBLs nationwide, andthe purposes of these centers are very specific: First,

companies, it seems that Kyoto is not an ideal place.
Is this a fair evaluation of the city of Kyoto?

I: Stanford University also started a venture-businessto promote and encourage researches for the next
generation, and second, to train young researchers

M: Well, looking from the outside, Kyoto, as you
say, is an ancient capital, and it’s also a university town,

years to establish this program. If you start with 100
students now, it will be in great shape 20 years fromto have venture-oriented minds. The first is not sonew; we’ve always tried to encourage researches foras well as a tourist town. Perhaps it does not strike
you as an industry-oriented city. However, industry is

M: Yes, and it doesn’t have to be at Kyoto Univer-the future. But the second purpose is quite unique,and making it happen is easier said than done. In

really the biggest business.

I: Do you mean it is the biggest in Japan?
M: No, I don’t mean that. In Kyoto, industry is big-program about 20 years ago. In fact, it took them 20

now.
sity alone. There are many other schools that canhave that foundation. What’s important is to main-

research, they discover or invent something new. Thenthey take their results to the business and corporate

ger and brings in more money than any other busi-

tain support and encouragement. I also think thatbusiness itself is going to change. I think that, if theworld. We have been doing this for the last few years
now. Of course, in the field of molecular electronics

ness sector. There are many small and medium sizedenterprises in Kyoto. For example, Kyoto has someworld accepts the system, then anywhere in the world
would be a good place for venture business.

for example, the new results are not immediately applicable. What we are hoping is that these results willventure-based companies, such as Kyocera, Rhom,
Murata, Omron, and Nintendo. So if you look at Kyoto

You know, when I consider these things, it seems
that universities are changing, and the roles of stu-

be useful in the future. Corporations are also looking
very carefully at this field. One project is to makefrom the eyes of the world in general, Kyoto is a worldrecognized venture town. True, if you are from To-

dents and professors are changing along with them.
I represent the Japan Association of Applied Physics,

organic ELs. In addition to liquid crystal screens, they
are interested in creating a totally new type of EL de-kyo, you may feel that the market is rather limited,
and that it’s far away. But, on the other hand, theand in this association, the silicon industry used to bea big business. It was an enormous area. But now

vice and display. The field of molecular computers is
obviously another application in which companies aremarket for Kyoto is not just local; its market is thewhole world. So Kyoto has a very healthy atmosphere.

the fields are changing. When you consider promoting venture businesses in the future, especially in mo-I:interested. In terms of the venture spirit, one thing
we are doing is educating researchers to obtain pat-lecular electronics and similar fields, do you have anysuggestions for our association?

ents. There are many different methods of doing this,but the issue is to ask, “How does the world and the

M: Well, I think applied physics itself is a boundary

market evaluate this research?” We hold a consulting service for questions regarding patents once a

ics can produce more people for venture businesses.
But I don’t think the association considers that fact all

week in our VBL, and we have expert counselors.
Some people have actually obtained patents for theirthat much. I think there is a great potential, though.
I believe the Association should ask itself, “What canfield. Compared to other fields, I think applied phys-

inventions and made royalties from them.

we do to promote venture businesses?”

I: So when you talk about getting patents, do you

I: And you are heading a sectional group within thisactually teach them to write patents, and do these

Association called something like “molecular and bio-

students actually write patents for their inventions?
Well, of course, these counselors are experts in

Kyoto University-Venture BuisinessLaboratory

the field of patents, and they contact patent attorneys to actually write patents. If you speak to these

I: Sorry, but I guess I had some misunderstanding of(M&BE) section was founded by Prof. Okada about
11 years ago, and it has become more and more popu-

counselors, they will tell you how to go about getting
patents-basically, there is a standard format, and you

the city. I know that Kyoto University has a rich tradition and history-a very well-respected university, withlar. Many students have joined this sectional group,
now totaling about 540 members. Last year the Ja-

only have to fill in the blanks in line with the format.

I: So you mean that students are actually saying, “Hey,many intelligent students entering it. But I am under
the impression that many of these first-class students

pan Association of Applied Physics and the Japan
Chemistry Society held a joint symposium on molecular

I want to get a patent for this. I am going to try,” andthey get patents?

would feel more comfortable joining large, secure
corporations rather than starting a venture company.

electronics; it was the first one. This year, an international symposium on molecular electronics was held.

M: Yes.
I: Wow, that’s wonderful.
M: For example, we have a student called Kobayashi

What are your students like? Do they really get interested in founding their own companies?

Among the participants of over 250 from various
countries, maybe half or 2/3 of the people were inM:electronics?”

M: Yes, I am. This molecular and bio-electronics

M:in our lab. He is credited with the invention of some

Well, there aren’t too many students who reallywant to go into ventures. Sure, it’s a nationally funded,

applied physics. The remaining participants werechemists and others. For chemists in general, phys-

special electronic circuit that increases the resolutionof the SPM. He got a patent for this, and then estab-

reputable school, so if someone wants to go into electronics, they can certainly go into a large firm, espe-

ics-oriented conferences are difficult to attend, butthey are coming to our meetings. Thus, this field islished a company, named Kyoto Instruments. He has
actually made a product out of this, and is now sell-cially one of the local ones. However, students arevery sensitive to the economy, and they know rightreally an international and inter-disciplinary one.
Finally, you have always asked the question “Why.”ing it.
That’s great. Is he a Master’s student?

away when companies go down. They also knowthat some major companies have gone bankrupt dur-Now, with molecular electronics, perhaps “dream”
will be an appropriate word. Maybe you could shareing the recession. So some of them are actually reallyinterested in venture businesses. As far as I can see,with us your dreams in this field.
Well, maybe this is not just a dream. This is apatents and actually make profits from them?
Yes. Student venture programs are not all thatM:

most people do not want to go into ventures. We
normally have about 100 people graduating every year

research project for the future. I think the most fundamental component of research is the human be-

unusual, but technology-based ventures require theright atmosphere. So I believe that a setting like ours

from our department, and maybe 2 or 3 people go
into venture businesses-that’s quite all right. At Kyoto

ing. We are the ones developing science and livingby science, but there are also environmental and ethi-

will be very beneficial.

I: I’d heard that many students had started their own

University, there are about 3000 students in total, so
3 % of that is about 100. If we have 100 venture

cal issues. The basis of all these issues is mankind.
We need a long, broad view of things so that we canventures with software. But now you’re saying that
this is becoming true even in the world of hardware.

business people every year, that would be great andwould change the world. This spring, in addition,balance what we are doing in the context of the human race.

I think this is really encouraging.

Kyoto university has set up a new “International In-

I:
M: No, he was a doctoral candidate at that time.
I: So is it possible for students at doctoral level to get

I:

M:

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