K A ZUO NAK AMUR A

Ta l k W i t h

N O B U KO N A K A N O

Considering the Pathology ofJapanese Society and a Prescription Amidst
the COVID-19 Pandemic
Aiming for a Society That Recognizes
Diversity as Strength
Nobuko Nakano
Brain scientist

Kazuo Nakamura

Chairman and CEO, CMIC HOLDINGS, Co., Ltd.

Considering the Pathology of Japanese Society and a Prescription Amidst the COVID-19 Pandemic
Aiming for a Society That Recognizes Diversity as Strength

KAZUO NAKAMURA

The COVID-19 pandemic has recently brought thepathology of Japanese society to our attention. So
far, the society has been based on economic
rationality, but now it needs to make anunprecedented transformation. Many people arestruggling and worried about the future. Facing sucha situation, what is the best approach for us to take inlife? Brain scientist Nobuko Nakano is far more than atypical researcher and is highly active in manydifferent forms of media. CEO Nakamura had a chatwith her to hear her views about the illness ofJapanese society and the prescription to heal it.

Talk WithNOBUKO NAKANO

information around them. For example,women. Cases have almost doubledthey might consider what the people incompared to last year for women. I

front of them are thinking, or they may

think the Japanese government

consider how other people who are notenacted the “Go To” campaigns

present could feel later even if they arebecause economic difficulty has served

not feeling in such a way now. In theas one contributing factor to theterminology of psychology, we would

suicides. However, these campaigns

say that people cannot ignore thehave not worked well due to the risk ofthoughts of the reference group whenspreading the infection.

making decisions. We can findNakamura A few days ago, I spokeinteresting qualities by examining art inwith my eldest son and his friends, whoorder to quantify and clarify these

consider the entire group when trying

graduated from an international

characteristics.

to understand an individual’sschool. They commented that no one

Nakamura And now the topic turns todecision-making process.

in their circle of friends felt as if theyart!

Nakano You are right. Homo sapiens

were being pushed into a corner

Nakamura First, could you briefly

signal caused by increased blood flow.

Nakamura I am also interested in theNakano The way artwork prices arehave a considerably strong butmentally. I wondered why this was, andexplain what brain science is?

The emergence of fMRI allowed for thesensory organs. The eyes, ears, taste

decided is extremely interesting. Thereimperfect social nature, though nottheorized that it may be related to theNakano “Brain science” is a relatively

brain to be mapped at a macro-levelbuds, and other organs are all linked toare many parameters involved, such asperhaps as strong as that of bees orfact that they were raised in a highly

new term. It used to be calledperspective with a time course that isthe brain, but we do not yet

the value a piece of work holds as art

ants. It would be truly fascinating if weinternational, diverse environment andcerebrophysiology or neuroscience.

easier to observe than with PET. This

understand everything. What kinds of(which is fundamentally difficult to put acould, to some extent, clarify the true

have a broad range of experience.

These terms are still popular in

led to the popularization of the term

research methods are being

price on) and the market’s evaluation.

form of humans’ imperfect social nature.

Nakano I think that is a significant

academia today. The reason why“brain science.”

implemented in this area?

However, art has a quality whereby theFor example, in thermodynamics therefactor. Within a homogeneous society,cerebrophysiology became brain

Nakamura So, with fMRI, people foundNakano There is the molecular

price rises if everyone thinks it is good.

is a concept called phase transition. Ifpeople tend to think that other people

science can be found in thethe key to identify the connections

approach, and there is macro-level

I thought that this would be a gooda super cooled liquid is stimulated

enjoy unfair advantages. When people

development of functional MRI (fMRI).

between different functions in themapping using fMRI. With fMRI, we

model for studying crowd psychology,

even slightly, it instantly solidifies. It isstart to think in this way, they end up

fMRI is a method for visualizing brain

brain. I am very interested in how brain

basically examine blood flow. Here, theso I am working to analyze the market.

thought that certain triggers may

turning that mindset back onto

activity based on changes in the MR

science explains the relationshipbottleneck is that we do not know theNakamura The science of animal

cause human groups to experience

themselves. They think that because

between the brain and the heart. It is

exact degree to which the data reflects

groups such as grey starlings and fish issudden changes in the manner of thisthey look at other people in such aobvious that my brain is in my head,nerve activity.

related to the study of decision making

phase transition. I hope to formulateway, other people must be seeing

in groups. For example, we might lookthis process.

but why is there the typical concept of“my heart” being somewhere inside
my chest.
Nakano Just like how the word is

Crowd psychology andthe science of groups

based on the name for the actual

KAZUO NAKAMURA

at the movements of a group of greystarlings in flight. When one bird
changes direction quickly following anattack from an outside enemy, theReconsidering the true
nature of wealth amidst
the COVID-19 pandemicorgan, we tend to feel that our chest

Nakamura Which field are you mostother birds instantly follow. On theserves as the center of our emotions,interested in now?

other hand, it is thought that birds fly

not our brain. I believe this is true for

Nakano I have always been fascinatedas a group, and there is no particular

Nakamura COVID-19 has cast a darkpeople all around the world. However,by crowd psychology. Many people

leader. If we consider a group ofshadow over society as a whole, andif we look for the source of ourbelieve that decisions are madehumans to be like a herd of animals, itmany people are suffering. We canemotions, we end up at the frontal lobe

entirely by individuals, but it is almost

could be very interesting to study the

only hope to give some kind of triggerof the brain. This separation has

impossible for someone to decide on

differences in behavioral characteristics

that can brighten things.

sparked a long-running debate. Thethings using solely their own mind.

between highly productive groups andNakano This is a critical topic. The

problem of the heart and brain may be

People always consider the wishes of

non-productive groups. As humans cannumber of suicides has increased

the final frontier.

others and are affected by the

only ever exist in groups, it is crucial toconsiderably, particularly amongNOBUKO NAKANOConsidering the Pathology of Japanese Society and a Prescription Amidst the COVID-19 Pandemic
Aiming for a Society That Recognizes Diversity as Strength

KAZUO NAKAMURA

emotional discomfort in a diverse

not a bad thing, and that there iscommunicate in virtual spaces, in thetolerance has become narrow.

environment. Many people feel

actually value in such differences. Thisend we need this fundamental

Nakano Yes, there are people who see

comfort in a monolithic

is thought to enhance children’selement.

keeping the rules to be part of theirenvironment, so we currently

self-esteem and to contribute to an

Nakamura If companies make a place

identity. It may be tough to revert to aneed education that functions as

autonomous desire for emergent

like a park, however small it may be, thisprevious state once rules have beena phase transition toward alearning. This cannot be graded in acan create networks that cross work

established.

mindset whereby wealth isuniform manner, so it imposes a larger

boundaries and produce creative ideas.

Nakamura Rules are important, butachieved by nurturing different

burden upon educators. In practicalNakano Research institutes abroadmanners and etiquette are even moreopinions.

terms, this approach can only becreate spaces like that. There is a breakcrucial. It’s not right to coerce people

Nakamura There is a limit toachieved with sufficient resources, butof about two hours for snacks, letting

to obey the rules simply because there

what an educational curriculum

it serves as a lifelong asset for children.

“research nerds” come together fromare rules, thus ignoring manners andthem in the same way, too. They thenbased on government guidelines can

I hope that such a curriculum will bedifferent areas to exchange ideas, whichetiquette.

try to avoid being thought of in such ado. Perhaps art could give us hints for a

spread in Japan as well.

helps create interesting new fields.

Nakano We need to remember thatway by others, and they suppress

new direction.

Nakamura We need to place

Nakamura I am currently preparing tothe original purpose of creating rules isthemselves to a severe degree,

Nakano New York’s Museum ofimportance on looking at, thinking

make such a space when the pandemic

to avoid making others feel unpleasant.

ultimately exhausting themselves

Modern Art has developed an

about, and sensing things. It is crucial

is over. I have also rediscovered thephysically and mentally.

educational curriculum called Visual

to take children to many different

importance of festivals.

Nakamura We need a system to help

Thinking Strategies (VTS). This involves

places and give them a wide range of

Nakano While the reasons for this havesuch people. I think that a truly wealthy

showing children pictures and asking

experiences.

not been clarified yet, if people

society is the one that better

them what they personally think about

recognizes diversity, that enables

the pictures, rather than asking whopeople to have fun without spending

made the pictures and when.

money, and that accepts things that

Amazingly, data shows that thismay appear to be nerdy.

approach improved the children’s

Nakano The same goes for art as well.

grades. The reason for this result is that

I believe the phrase “He who does notwork, neither shall he eat” is at the root

experience difficulties because festivals

Breaking free froma pathological society

Talk WithNOBUKO NAKANO

these utility functions. Encouraging

Create incentives for
activities that enhance
beautyare not held, they tend to seek somepeople to engage in beautiful behavior
in their workplaces will aid society.
Nakamura We need to achieve asystem that can value things that areinteresting in their differences instead

kind of sacrifice. I feel that many people

Nakamura You mentioned economicof economic rationality only, as well as

are troubled from losing the structure

rationality earlier. What do you think is

nerdy qualities and beauty as you justof festivals that have been practiced

needed for management activities

mentioned. Considering environmental

Nakamura Among the changes tosince ancient times. People attempt togoing forward?

problems on a global scale, I cannot

children can learn that everyone has

work styles that the COVID-19

obtain relief by putting others on aNakano I feel that beauty will serve as

help but feel we have entered an age

different ways of thinking, that this ispandemic has brought about, I havepedestal and attacking them. If theya key concept. Acting in a beautiful wayof coexistence that goes beyond livingof the pathology of Japanese society.

personally come to appreciate

find an individual who does not follow

works as an incentive in and of itself. Itwith nature and includes robots, AI,

Some people may not seem like they

the importance of the “parkthe rules, everyone starts to pounce on

would be ideal to demonstrate theand other animals and plants. Going

are working now, but their actions mayeffect” on companies. We canthem. It is truly bizarre. Nobody wants

benefits in an easy-to-understand way,

forward, there will be a greater needprove useful 30 years hence. Similarly,

relax and have ourto be under attack, and this thoughtsuch as how people are healthier andthan ever before for diverse thinking

art may not help us stay alive

imaginations andleads to a vicious circle that makes

live longer or how organizations canand future-oriented social design.

tomorrow, but it may be needed tocompetitiveness invigorated

people even more troubled. As a result,develop if they prioritize beauty. The

Finally, I would like to mention that I

help us survive three years thereafter.

simply by sharing snacks

society today is in an extremely

economic models of the 20th century

attended high school and college with

Nakamura Yes, that’s right. Some

together and talking where wepathological state.

have reached their limits, and we canyour father-in-law, so I have known youartists that are famous today were notcan see each other’s faces,

Nakamura Japan was originally a

now see the cracks in a society thatfor a long time. I have often seen you inrecognized in their lifetimes. However, I

without needing to do muchcountry where people coexisted with

only pursues economic rationality.

the media, and I can see that you arethink the instinctual desire to draw andelse. I have come to feel how

different things, rather than rejecting

When I consider which parameters wevery successful. It was a pleasure toto express oneself is truly human. I

important these kinds ofthem. Mixed bathing at hot springs is ashould add when redesigning thespeak with you today as a scientist.

believe that modern-day Japan caneffects are.

typical example of this. It is of course

economy, I think we should give moreThank you for taking the time to talkcreate a basic safety net to support

Nakano That is an interesting

wrong to bring trouble to others or tovalue to elements like beauty and thewith me.

such people.

observation. Though it iscause problems. However, if there wasdesire to be with a certain person or to

Nakano On the other hand, it is true

economically rational tonot such a fixation on rules, we would

be satisfied. There is a need to build anthat many people will experienceeliminate costly offices andhave a more tolerant culture, yet thiseconomic model that incorporates