DOCKETED  
Docket Number:  23-FDAS -01 
Project Title:  Pool Controls Rulemaking  
TN #:  250692  
Document Title:  Public Hearing Transcript  
Description:  Flexible Demand Appliance Standards Public Hearing 
Transcript For Pool Controls  
Filer:  Nicholaus Struven  
Organization:  California Energy Commission  
Submitter Role:  Commission Staff   
Submission Date:  6/21/2023 9:37:52 AM  
Docketed Date:  6/21/2023  
 1 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 CALIFORNIA ENERGY COMMISSION  
 
 
 
In the Matter of:          )  
      )  
Flexible Demand Appliance      )  Docket Number: 23 -FDAS-01 
Standards Public Hearing       )  
Pool Controls          ) 
______________________________ _____ ) 
 
 
 
Held remotely via Zoom  
 
 
TUESDAY, APRIL 11, 2023  
10:00 A.M. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Reported by:  
Elise Hicks  2 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 APPEARANCES  
 
 
Commissioners   
 
J. Andrew McAllister, CEC Commissioner  
 
Speakers and Presenters  
 
Bruce Helft, Energy Commission  
Carlos Baez, Energy Commission  
Nicholaus St ruven, Energy Commission  
 
Public commenters:  
 
Jennifer Hatfield, Pool and Hot Tub Alliance  
Dr. Bob Cruickshank, Power Networks, LLC  
Philip Escobedo, Fluidra   3 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 I N D E X  
               
                 Page 
 
Opening Remarks            4 
 
Introductions                     4 
 
Public Comment            16 
 
Adjourned             20 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
1 4 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 P R O C E E D I N G S  1 
April 11, 2023                                         10:00 a.m. 2 
MR. HELFT:  Good Tuesday , and welcome to the 3 
California Energy Commission's Public Hearing for the Flexible 4 
Demand Appliance Standards for pool controls.  5 
This is Bruce Hel ft, the senior staff scientist with 6 
the Flexible Demand Appliance Standards Team. This slide 7 
presents our agen da for today. Lead Commissioner Andrew 8 
McAllister will provide opening remarks to set the stage for our 9 
public hearing. Then the project Lead for the Flexible Demand 10 
Appliance Standards Team Nic h Struven will provide a brief 11 
overview of the rulemaking proc ess and next steps, then an 12 
overview of the proposed regulatory language followed by a 13 
public comment session. Today's public hearing is being held 14 
remotely recorded by Zoom and transcribed by a court reporter. 15 
Statements made today will become part of the  public record. No 16 
decisions will be made at this public hearing. Information and 17 
documentation for this rulemaking can be found in Docket 23 - 18 
FDAS-01. The public advisor is available this morning to 19 
facilitate your participation and may be contacted at the  email 20 
and phone number shown on this slide.  21 
All attendees will be muted during the presentation. 22 
Oral comments will be taken at the end of Nic h's presentation, 23 
estimated to be around 10:30 AM Pacific time. If online, raise 24 
your hand and the host will give  you the ability to speak during 25 5 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 the comment session. If on the phone raise your hand to speak by 1 
pushing star nine and the host will give you the ability to 2 
speak during the comment session when it is your turn push star 3 
and the number six to mute and unm ute. When speaking, please 4 
state your name and your affiliation for the court reporter. 5 
Alternatively, if you have questions, you may type them into the 6 
question and answer function on Zoom and they will be forwarded 7 
to the moderator. I welcome Commissione r Andrew McAllister to 8 
formally launch this public hearing.  9 
COMMISSIONER McALLISTER:  Cool, thank you Bruce. 10 
Really appreciate that and Nic h as well and the rest of the 11 
team, Corrine helping us with the process and number of the FDA S 12 
team with us today. Ca rlos as well, who you'll hear from later, 13 
I wanted to just really, well first of all thank staff for a 14 
really persistent effort over the last couple of years to 15 
develop this first staff report, this first initiative incursion 16 
I guess over in within the FD AS regulatory trajectory.  17 
So this is a new authority. Just a little bit of 18 
context. This is a new authority that was granted the Energy 19 
Commission by the legislature a few years ago to really kind of 20 
compliment our other standards making authorities, which  all of 21 
you are familiar with. Our appliance efficiency standards, our 22 
building standards and our load management standards in 23 
particular, the load management standards I think complement 24 
very well the Flexible Demand Appliance Standards.  25 6 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 So really instead of sort of three legs of this stool, 1 
they're now four legs of this standards making stool that all 2 
represent key supports for our clean energy transition. In 3 
particular LM S, the load management standards , and FDAS focus on 4 
load flexibility on the a bility to manage our end uses to 5 
accommodate the needs of the grid and really create a bi - 6 
directional or sort of complimentary management capability of 7 
the demand side. And so , as generation becomes more aligned with 8 
the rhythms of nature, we need our load s to begin to do the same 9 
thing. And so on the load management standards, it's getting 10 
rates out there in a standardized format so that users and end 11 
uses can automate around those rates and other signals like 12 
carbon content of the power or flex alert from  the CAISO. And we 13 
could add signals, but in particular rates , so that devices can 14 
automate their consumption day in and day out to help support 15 
the grid, improve load factors and optimize the investments in 16 
the reconductoring and the build out of the mode rn electric 17 
grid. 18 
Given the new loads that are going to be coming online 19 
over the coming years and decades. Electrification , which will 20 
double or even triple our energy consumption across the state, 21 
our electricity consumption rather across the state F DAS is a 22 
key component of this whole ecosystem because it will ensure 23 
over the coming years that appropriate loads, appropriate end 24 
uses have native load flexibility such that they can be part of 25 7 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 that load flex ecosystem. The Energy Commission is also at t he 1 
request of the legislature engaged currently into the summer 2 
with the development of a load shift goal for the state. And 3 
really it'll be sort of complimentary load shift goals plural , 4 
for the state one sort of more in the demand response realm, 5 
which we know is sort of emergency driven and event driven out 6 
there and occasional load dropping or load shifting load shed.  7 
And then on the other end of the spectrum, which is 8 
where FDAS kind of plays, is the ability to, in setting a goal  9 
really for really quotidian day, daily load load shaping. And so 10 
the Flex ible Demand A ppliance Standards will over time enable 11 
scale up of this automated load shaping. And so  the, I'm getting 12 
into this context because I just wanted to locate this 13 
particular workshop and this particular staff report and 14 
rulemaking in that broader context. So the pool controls 15 
proposal is the staff report and regulatory proposal is the 16 
first inc ursion, as I said, the first effort under the new FDAS 17 
authority. And so it's really important that people pay 18 
attention to the structure of the staff report, the various 19 
themes that are part of this effort.  20 
So not every device will have sort of profound s ort of 21 
treatment of every theme, but this first incursion effort tries 22 
to identify the themes that will reappear as we move forward 23 
with new devices. So pool control is obviously very important. 24 
Water heaters, heat pump water heaters and electric water 25 8 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 heaters probably .  We're pretty far down the road looking at how 1 
to engage with that appliance category. We'll likely do 2 
additional devices like behind the meter batteries. We already 3 
treat those in the building code with a joint appendix, but they 4 
are becomi ng a very important load shaping tool and as they 5 
scale up, we want to shape how that happens. We want to 6 
influence how that happens so that the grid can benefit from it 7 
and not suffer from it.  8 
We have electric vehicles which already are scaling 9 
up, signif icant part of the new car market. They will need to 10 
play a positive role on the grid as well. And so this load 11 
shaping of car charging, both charging and discharging is really 12 
important for the grid. So all of this is to say that pool 13 
controls are an impor tant element and a sort of initial element 14 
of creating over the long term, over the medium and long term  15 
this load flex ecosystem and California really is leading this 16 
effort in load flexibility. There is no federal regulation or 17 
legislation, there's no fe deral authority that's been asserted, 18 
for load flexibility. So we don't have issues of federal 19 
preemption like we have in some of the efficiency realms, 20 
certainly with appliances. And so we really have an open field 21 
here to do the right thing and that's wh y we need all of the 22 
participants here, all the stakeholders, the various market 23 
participants in this case, the Pool and Hot Tub Alliance and its 24 
members and the environmental stakeholders.  25 9 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 I think lots of stakeholders that have a vested 1 
interest in success here and we want what's best for California 2 
balancing , so the private and the public drivers of 3 
sustainability. So finding that balance is what we do with the 4 
Commission and that's really what we strive to do through these 5 
public processes. The record building, the record, having 6 
participation, having input from all the stakeholders is what 7 
makes this whole operation, what keeps the clock ticking. And so 8 
really I just can't have to overemph asize how important is your 9 
engagement and so your thoughtful engagement and your sort of 10 
input helping our staff. Our staff are excellent as I said, but 11 
nobody knows everything about these industries and each device 12 
category, each has its own particulars and the experts. We 13 
really need the experts out there in the industry and in 14 
deployment and manufacturing to help inform us at the Energy 15 
Commission about the landscape so that we can sort of track the 16 
right path through it and end up in a place that is bo th 17 
impactful but also flexible enough that compliance is not hugely 18 
problematic.  19 
So all this is to say welcome, really glad that 20 
everyone's engaging and here you really are in good hands with 21 
Nich and the team, Nic h and Bruce and Carlos and Corrine and the 22 
rest of the team and just want to thank leadership in the 23 
efficiency division and Mike Sok ol, Christine Co llopy and all 24 
the leaders, Peter Strait in the appliances branch and just all 25 10 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 the staff who really complement  one another and together they 1 
make an amazing team.  2 
So really looking forward to a productive morning and 3 
hearing how it goes from staff later and also reading comments 4 
are already coming in, the docket is starting to populate. So 5 
really appreciate everyone's input and really hope that folk s 6 
comment in writing and on the docket as a result sort of 7 
following up from this workshop. So thanks everyone. Really 8 
looking forward to hearing your input and moving forward from 9 
here. So with that Nic h and Bruce, I'll hand it back to you for 10 
the substan ce of the workshop. So thanks again.  11 
MR. STRUVEN:  Thank you , Commissioner. I am Nic h 12 
Struven of the Flexible Demand Appliance Standards team and I'll 13 
provide you a brief overview of the rulemaking process and the 14 
next steps.  15 
Let's start with where we're a t in the regulatory 16 
process. On February 23rd, we docketed the final staff report 17 
for pool controls and the associated rulemaking documents. This 18 
was the start of the formal rulemaking and we're currently in 19 
the public comment period. Staff will continue e valuating and 20 
reviewing comments that were received. Stakeholders are 21 
encouraged to sign up for the flexible demand appliances list 22 
server and receive updates and notices on this topic.  23 
Note that this is a multipurpose listserv that serves 24 
flexible demand appliances, load management and demand response 25 11 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 activities at the commission. The table shows approximate dates 1 
for key milestones for the rulemaking schedules. Staff plans to 2 
recommend to the CEC for adoption, the first flexible demand 3 
appliance standards  in the third quarter of 2023 with an 4 
effective date for a compliance one year after adoption.  5 
Next up on our agenda is the overview of the proposed 6 
regulatory language. I'll provide  a brief overview of the 7 
proposed regulatory language, helping to provide a framework for 8 
your public comments. The entire proposed regulation document 9 
for this rulemaking can be found in docket 23-FDAS-01. 10 
These are the sections that will be added to the Title 11 
20 code California Code of Regulations with this rulemaking. 12 
Section 1690, scope 1691 definitions 1692 general requirements, 13 
1693 appliance specific standards and 1694 customer consent 14 
section 1695 certification requirements Section 1696, data 15 
submittal requirements Section 1697, compliance enforcements and 16 
administrative civil penalties. Let's discuss the proposed 17 
regulations for pool controls, which is the first flexible 18 
demand standard implemented by the California Energy Commission 19 
under authorizi ng legislation SB 49  (2019). 20 
The scope of the regulations is for pool controls , as 21 
defined in the proposed regulation. The proposed regulations 22 
also define dedicated purpose pool pump, electric pool heater, 23 
pool equipment, pool filter pump . Staff opted to use definitions 24 
that are consistent and align with those commonly used in the 25 12 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 pool and hot tub industry.  1 
Additional definitions relevant to the requirements 2 
are found  in section 1691, the pool controls definition section 3 
of the proposed regulations. This slide highlights some of the 4 
definitions found in the proposed regulatory language. The 5 
proposed regulation defines pool controls as any component or 6 
group of componen ts, including software , that 1)has the 7 
capability to start or stop the operation of a pool filter pump 8 
and other pool equipment and 2)uses single phase AC power as 9 
input power . Pool controls exclude controls marketed exclusively 10 
for use as a control for pool filter pumps with rated hydraulic 11 
horsepower greater than 2.5.  12 
This slide highlights some of the definitions found in 13 
the proposed regulatory language. Consent means a customer's 14 
permission or ag reement to use capabilities of an appliance 15 
subject to this article to schedule shift or curtail its use 16 
through direct action by the customer or by a third-party load 17 
serving entity or a grid balancing authority. Consent may be 18 
expressed or implied. Addit ional definitions relevant to the 19 
requirements are found in section 1691. The general definition 20 
section of the proposed regulations. Additional requirements 21 
relative to consent are found in Section 1694 , the customer 22 
consent section of the proposed regula tions. “Connected device ” 23 
means any device that is capable of receiving TCP IP signals 24 
from the internet with or without connections through common 25 13 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 home network equipment or radio broadcasting by means of 1 
integrated or separate communication module. Additional 2 
definitions relevant to the requirements are found in section 3 
1691. The general definition section of the proposed 4 
regulations, TCP IP signal m eans a type of data format used to 5 
carry data through the network. Additional definitions relevant 6 
to requirements are found in section 1691. The general 7 
definition section of the proposed regulations Section 1692 8 
general requirements subsection A testing contains the general 9 
testing requirements framework consistent with other Title 20 10 
testing requirements. Section 1693, the appliance specific 11 
standards and requirements. Subsection four testing is where the 12 
future testing requirements for pool controls may  be included. 13 
Currently, there are no testing requirements for pool controls.  14 
This slide highlights the marking requirements in the 15 
proposed regulatory language. The following information shall be 16 
permanently , legibly, and conspicuously displayed on an 17 
accessible place on each unit of every appliance. Within the 18 
scope of this article. 1) the manufacturer's name or brand name 19 
or trademark , 2) the model number and 3) the date of 20 
manufacturer indicating year, month, or smaller week, week 21 
increment. If the date is in code, the manufacturer shall 22 
immediately upon request provide the code to the energy 23 
commission. Additional details are found in section 1692, 24 
subsection B, the general requirements section for the marking 25 14 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 of proposed regulations.  1 
This slide hig hlights the cybersecurity requirements 2 
and the proposed regulatory language device identification 3 
requiring unique logical identifier for the connected device , 4 
device configuration requirements only allowing authorized 5 
entities to make software changes. Da ta protection requirements 6 
are an important first step to protect personal data. Passwords 7 
are required to be unique and secure passwords. Software updates 8 
are important to patch security vulnerabilities, restart 9 
settings upon device, restart. The device s hall automatically 10 
restore the most recently programmed settings, including 11 
reconnection to a network automatic rejoin. When the physical 12 
logical communication is lost, the connected device shall 13 
automatically attempt to rejoin the physical or logical 14 
communication override function. The connected device shall 15 
allow consumers to change the event responses and connected 16 
device settings at any time. Additional details are found in 17 
section 1692, subsection C, the general requirements section for 18 
cybersecurity of the proposed regulations.  19 
 20 
This slide highlights the certification and data 21 
submittal requirements found in the proposed regulatory 22 
language. Section 1695 certification requirements contains the 23 
general certification requirements similar to those curren t CEC 24 
title 20 certification process section 1696. The data submittal 25 15 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 requirements contains table A data submittal requirements for 1 
all appliances table A two data submittal requirements for all 2 
connected appliances and table B one data submittal requireme nts 3 
for pool controls. Future flexible demand appliances are planned 4 
to be added to six to section 1696 during future rulemaking. 5 
Please refer directly to the docketed proposed regulatory 6 
language for the specific details , since these slides were 7 
designed to provide only a brief overview . This concludes the 8 
brief overview of the proposed regulatory language. Let's now go 9 
to public comment with Carlos. Welcome Carlos.  10 
MR. BAEZ: Good morning. This is Carlos B aez from the 11 
Appliances Branch at the Energy Commis sion.  12 
We'll now start the public comment. The time is 10:23 13 
AM and a reminder that this public hearing is being recorded by 14 
a court reporter and all statements today become part of the 15 
public record. Comments may be limited to three minutes per 16 
person and  one person per per organization depending upon the 17 
number of commenters wishing to speak. Please state your name 18 
and affiliation when speaking to comment, please use the ray's 19 
hand function to speak online. After using the raise hand 20 
function, the host wi ll give you the ability to speak. Then the 21 
participant must push unmute for anyone on phone only. Raise 22 
your hand by pushing star nine. The host will give you the 23 
ability to speak. Then the caller must push star six to mute and 24 
unmute. For general clarifyi ng questions, please type your 25 16 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 question in the q and a section. Also, if you are unable to 1 
speak but would like to comment, please indicate so in the q and 2 
a section and then we'll read your comment out loud for you. 3 
We'll now open now for any public comme nts. I don't see any 4 
raised hands at this time, but again, please raise your hand if 5 
you'd like to comment.  6 
Okay, we do have a raise hand from Jennifer. I've just 7 
given you the ability to speak. Please unmute yourself. Yes,  8 
MS. HATFIELD:  Thank you Commiss ioner and staff. I 9 
just wanted us to make a brief comment. Jennifer Hatfield. I 10 
represent the pool in Hot Tub Alliance in our member support 11 
California and the commission's efforts to reduce energy demand 12 
and lessen the greenhouse gas emissions by establis hing these 13 
statewide flexible demand appliance standards for pool controls. 14 
We have suggested some modifications to the proposed regulatory 15 
language. Those were submitted yesterday. And I'll just note we 16 
think these are opportunities to further improve the  language 17 
you have that you reviewed today. And we just urge you to 18 
commission the commission to consider them. We think they're 19 
ultimately going to provide clarity that is needed in terms of 20 
what is and isn't in scope. Eliminate requirements that it will 21 
stifle innovation and provide adequate time for manufacturers to 22 
develop the products. So with that, I just want to thank you so 23 
much for all your hard work on this. We look forward to 24 
continuing to hopefully provide helpful comments to the 25 17 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 commission. And  thanks. 1 
MR. BAEZ:  Thanks, Jennifer. Another raised hand from 2 
Dr. Bob Cr uickshan k. Bob, I've just given you the ability to 3 
speak. 4 
DR. CRUICKSHANK:  Hello. Thank you very much for 5 
pulling this together. And for the prior document which we 6 
provided comments on, I was curious if the slides have already 7 
been distributed. I joined a few minutes late and I put that in 8 
the chat. And then my  question is, did you say that a device has 9 
to have two way IP connectivity to be considered connected?  10 
MR. BAEZ:  Nic h or Bruce, one of you mind writing 11 
clarification on that point?  12 
MR. STRUVEN:  Yeah, and if we look at the proposed 13 
regulatory language, i t does not require it to be two way. Just 14 
receiving a data packet would indicate that one way would be 15 
acceptable.  16 
DR. CRUICKSHANK : That's great. I think that was in the 17 
spirit of several comments that were provided on the written 18 
version a few months ago.  Thank you for the clarification.  19 
MR. BAEZ:  Yeah, thank you. And about the slides? 20 
Yeah, if they're not already posted, they should be posted by 21 
the end of today or tomorrow. So very soon, another raised hand 22 
from Phillip. Phillip, I've given you the abil ity to speak.  23 
MR. ESCOBEDO:  Hello and thanks for the opportunity 24 
here. Just want to say we have submitted written comments along 25 18 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 with PHTA, which we fully support their comments as well. We 1 
agree with the approach, so of the pool automation system or 2 
pool controls being what we want to target and not just a pool 3 
pump controller. This assures the appropriate operation of all 4 
pool equipment and the safety of the pool. I would just 5 
encourage the CEC as they read through our comments if they want 6 
to reach out directly to manufacturers to get clarity on exactly 7 
what the comment means. If there's any questions, concerns, 8 
please reach out to us or happy to answer those questions to 9 
make sure it's understood. And ultimately we want to help 10 
provide a rule that's mea ningful and enforceable. Thank you.  11 
MR. BAEZ:  12 
Thank you. Did you mind stating your name and 13 
affiliation again? Phillip?  14 
MR. ESCOBEDO:  15 
Oh, Phillip Escob edo from the company Fluidra. 16 
MR. BAEZ:  Thank you. Going back to Dr. Bob, do you 17 
mind stating your name and affiliation? Bob?  18 
DR. CRUICKSHANK:  Absolutely. Bob Cruickshank, Power 19 
Networks LLC. Thank you.  20 
MR. BAEZ:  Thank you. I appreciate  it. No other raised 21 
hands at this time, but we will continue to stay online for a 22 
while longer.  23 
Still not seeing any new raised hands. We'll hang, 24 
hang on just for another few seconds before moving to the end 25 19 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476 slides. Thank you.  1 
Okay. Still no raised hands  and no new chats in the Q 2 
and A so we can conclude the public comment portion of this 3 
hearing.  4 
Thank you for all of your comments today. This slide 5 
provides the details for three options for you to submit your 6 
written comments. We welcome all comments an d here is contact 7 
information if you'd like any more information or have questions 8 
about this rulemaking. Thank you all again for your 9 
participation. We appreciate all the comments received and hope 10 
you have a good rest of your day. Thank you.  11 
 (Whereupon the meeting was adjourned at 10:32 12 
a.m.) 13 
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California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476  CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER  
 
I do hereby certify that the testimony in the 
foregoing hearing was taken at the time and  place 
therein stated; that the testimony of said witnesses 
were reported by me, a certified electronic court 
reporter and a disinterested person, and was under my 
supervision thereafter transcribed into typewriting.  
 
And I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for either or any of the parties to said 
hearing nor in any wa y interested in the outcome of 
the cause named in said caption.  
 
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 
this 1st day of May, 2023. 
               
      ELISE HICKS, IAPRT CERT**2176  
        
 
 
 
 
 
21 
California Reporting, LLC  
(510) 224 -4476   
 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER  
 
    I do hereby certify that the testimony   
   in the foregoing hearing was taken at the   
   time and place therein stated; that the   
   testimony of said witnesses were transcribed  
   by me, a certified transcriber and a    
   disinterested person, and wa s under my    
   supervision thereafter transcribed into   
   typewriting.  
                      And I further certify that I am not  
   of counsel or attorney for either or any of  
   the parties to said hearing nor in any way  
   interested in the outcom e of the cause named  
   in said caption.  
    I certify that the foregoing is a  
   correct transcript, to the best of my  
   ability, from the electronic sound recording  
   of the proceedings in the above -entitled  
   matter. 
 
       May 1, 2023  
   MARTHA L. NELSON, CERT**367