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Thats what the clause ""standard uncontroversial object"" implied. Ok, we're getting somewhere. Now, as I understand it, it isn't under contest that finding a supernatural causation will always breach empiricism. If I'm wrong, please inform me. Second, for our ""standard uncontroversial object"" does specified complexity or irreducable complexity hold any water? Remember, just keeping in line with our inorganic, manmade, unimportant and uncontroversial device. "