# Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-February-9

This is the chat from our meeting on 9th February 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.
People joining the chat: assassingr|away, Daan, dcrochet, Erkan Yilmaz, myrmikonos, pietrodn, Ramac, Sundance_Raphael

## Sicily

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13:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>lets call the others to join us: pietrodn myrmikonos dcrochet - let's start
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13:27 <dcrochet>hum, i'm not goe to participate e lot, because i know nothing about the peloponnesian war 13:27 <assassingr|away>I'm a little slow on the uptake right now, very sleepy 13:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, indeed in Sicily Greek states had colonies 13:28 <Daan>Okay. 13:28 <dcrochet>* not go to 13:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably pietrodn can tell us one time more about this things in Sicily ? Did you have this in school ? 13:29 <pietrodn>Yes, we studied this period 13:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great 13:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so who has read the text for today ? Some were invited without reading, so we can give them a short update ? 13:29 <pietrodn>The war between Syracuse and Segesta 13:30 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up Segesta 13:30 <Daan>Was Segesta Greek or Carthaginian? 13:30 <pietrodn>Segesta was greek 13:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segesta 13:31 <Daan>A local Carthaginian ally. 13:31 <Daan>I read something about the local nations on Sicily before the Greek and the fenicians came, but it is way off topic. 13:32 <Daan>I only read about it on Wikipedia. 13:32 <pietrodn>We should also talk about Alcibiades and the scandal 13:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>here is a map it is in the northwestern part of Sicily: http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=37.941306&lon=12.83764&z=7&l=5&m=a 13:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>above this green E90 13:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Syracuse is in the east coast 13:33 <Daan>Segesta was from the Elamyians who came from Anatolia. 13:33 <pietrodn>Syracuse was friend of Sparta, am I right? 13:33 <Daan>They lived in the west of Sicily. 13:33 <Daan>I think so, that is why Athens went to Sicily. 13:33 <Daan>Isn't it? 13:34 <Daan>Elymians. 13:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"Syracuse was founded in 734 or 733 BC by Greek settlers from Corinth and Tenea, led by the oecist (colonizer) " 13:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"In the late 5th century BC, Syracuse found itself at war with Athens, which sought more resources to fight the Peloponnesian War." 13:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse%2C_Sicily 13:34 <Daan>So, they were loyal corinthians, supporting the Pelopennese 13:34 <pietrodn>The Magna Graecia colonies was formed due to the second colonisation 13:35 <Daan>The first colonization was the conquest of Greece by the greek? 13:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well this brings us to the Thucydides text a little bit with Corcyra and Epidamnos 13:35 <pietrodn>no... it was the conquest of the west coast of Anatolia by Greeks 13:35 <Daan>Oh, okay. 13:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corcyra being on the strategic position to the Greek-Sicily sea way

## origins of Greeks, the first and the second colonization, the Doric invasion...

13:36 <Daan>But the Greeks only lift for a few centuries in Greece, before them there were other people living there, in the 2nd millenium BC. 13:36 <myrmikonos>hi everybody :P 13:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi myrmikonos 13:36 <Daan>The Greek are Indo-Europeans marching south from Hungary. 13:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how was lunch ? 13:37 <Daan>Hi Myrmikonos. 13:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps assassingr|away knows about the roots of Greek people ? 13:37 <myrmikonos>[ delicious ] 13:37 <pietrodn>Daan: there was the Doric invasion, in the XIII century 13:37 <Daan>I'm getting hungry as well. 13:37 <assassingr|away>Hm, I know that the roots of Greeks was a tribe called Danaoi 13:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - great, so you have now energy for us ? 13:37 <pietrodn>Spartans have Doric origins 13:37 <Daan>Yes, was that the invasion to Ionia? 13:37 <assassingr|away>(not sure how it is in English...) 13:38 <pietrodn>Daan: Ionia is in Anatolia 13:38 <Daan>Yes, i know. It is now Turkish. 13:38 <assassingr|away>pietrodn: Spartans have Doric origins, that's true, I recall it 13:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta: yes Dorian 13:38 <pietrodn>Daan: The Dorics went in Greece, so the former inhabitants moved to Anatolia 13:38 <Daan>and the Ionians were the first Greeks to enter Greece. 13:38 <pietrodn>Daan: this is the first colonization 13:38 <Daan>Okay. 13:39 <Daan>Shall we talk about the text. 13:39 <myrmikonos> [Danaoi is a keyword for me and google ] 13:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yippie :-) 13:39 <pietrodn>In the ancient Sparta, Ilots was the former inhabitants, submitted by Dorics 13:39 <pietrodn>*were 13:39 <Daan>I will look for the Danaoi on Wikipedia. 13:40 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaoi 13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>The Danuna are known from Egyptian, Hittite, and classical sources. In the historical sources, the Danuna are known by many different names such as Denyen, Danunites, Danaoi, Danaus, Danaids, Dene, Danai, Danaian. 13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>There are several theories on where the Danuna came from: 13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>1) Eastern Cilicia, 2) Mycenae, 3) Canaan. 13:40 <pietrodn>In the Iliad there is the word "Danaoi", many times 13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from: http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/danaoi 13:41 - dcrochet left 13:41 <Daan>I have read somewhere they weren't really Greek. 13:41 <pietrodn>Daan: The entire world is a melting pot... 13:41 <Daan>That is true Pietro. 13:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we are all brothers and sisters :-) 13:42 <Daan>Before the ice age all Europeans and inhabitants of the Middle East probably lived in the Middle East. 13:42 <pietrodn>A lot of indoeuropean people went in Greece in 2 invasions (in about 2000 and 1200 a.C.) 13:42 <assassingr|away>Daan: That time they didn't think of themselves as Greeks, only after a *long* time and after many processes 13:43 <Daan>Yes, of course. 13:43 <myrmikonos>*notice "The entire world is a melting pot"* 13:43 <Daan>Several groups coming together. 13:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>didn't Thucydides tell in his book, when they began to call them Greeks ? 13:43 <pietrodn>They defined themselves "Ellenics" 13:43 <Daan>I am probably not germanic but half Celtic and Germanic. 13:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah yes, Hellens it was 13:44 <pietrodn>uh, Hellens 13:44 <pietrodn>In Italian the word is "Elleni" :-D 13:44 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up where it was again 13:44 <myrmikonos>i wish to be myrmidonian :o 13:44 <Daan>What is that? 13:44 <Daan>In Dutch helleens. 13:44 <pietrodn>Daan: Achilles was Myrmidonian 13:45 <myrmikonos>some kind of mystic soldier tribe , wich follows achillies 13:45 <pietrodn>They came from Ftia 13:45 <Daan>I got a Frisian family ame. 13:45 <pietrodn>(Phthia?) 13:45 <Daan>name 13:45 <myrmikonos>achilles was just the leader x) 13:45 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthia 13:45 <Daan>They had the Frisian freedom in the middle ages. 13:45 <Daan>Which meant being against the nobility. 13:46 <pietrodn>«Phthia (Greek: Φθία or Φθίη; transliterations: Fthii (modern), Phthíē (ancient)) is an ancient region of Greece, at the area of Phthiotis Prefecture, on the both sides of Othrys mountain. It was the homeland of the Myrmidones tribe, who took part in the Trojan War under Achilles.» 13:46 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons 13:46 <myrmikonos>there exist a german source of herodots story @ internet 13:46 <myrmikonos>its a huge pdf 13:46 <Daan>Yes. 13:46 <Daan>You mean written in German? 13:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book I, 3 talks about the usage of Greeks for themselves as Hellens 13:47 <Daan>I will read it now. 13:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - you seem to know Greek history 13:47 * assassingr|away wonders if Hellen and Helen have a relationshio 13:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 13:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Helen of Troy ? 13:48 <myrmikonos>[ http://www.gasl.org/refbib/Herodotos__Geschichten.pdf ] 13:48 <assassingr|away>Well, any Helen 13:48 <assassingr|away>Of course the famous one was that of Troy 13:48 <Daan>Wow, what a great story. I had forgotten all about it. 13:48 <Daan>Sometimes when you read too fast, you miss the juicy details. 13:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I see: Achilles and his people were the first Hellens 13:49 <pietrodn>assassingr|away: every name has its origin. I'm searching now... 13:49 <Daan>No, Homer wrote about them, that is what Thucydides says. 13:49 <Daan>He doesn't believe in fairy tales. 13:49 <pietrodn>Helen - From Ancient Greek Ἑλένη (Helénē), possibly connected with ἥλιος (hḗlios) ‘sun’. 13:50 <pietrodn>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Helen 13:50 <Daan>I guess he gives a good impression of how a nation starts. 13:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw for all others who do not have the text: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1 13:50 <Daan>The French are funny, they are named after their Germanic conquerers, while they are actually romanic. 13:51 <myrmikonos>so much to read ;) 13:51 <assassingr|away>I see... Too many words and you can't always now which are connected with another 13:51 <Daan>Yes. 13:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - no worries, therefore others are here to summarize 13:51 <myrmikonos>i need more reading time 13:51 <myrmikonos>ok 13:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as you see we do not specifically talk about the text fornow 13:52 <myrmikonos>[ 13:49] <Daan> Sometimes when you read too fast, you miss the juicy details. <- word 13:52 <Daan>That is true. 13:52 <Daan>Well, te juicy details can be given.

## Perdiccas, Alcibiades

13:53 <Daan>What about the conduct of the Macedonian king: first he tries to start a war, which is succesfull, and than he flips sides thrice in the war. 13:53 <Daan>That is Realpolitik :-) 13:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha 13:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean Perdiccas ? 13:54 <Daan>Yes, i am a big fan of him now. 13:54 <Daan>There are so many morons in world history. 13:55 <Daan>Though, he probably had a good reason. 13:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdiccas_II_of_Macedon 13:55 <Daan>he thought. 13:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well unfortunately we don't know so much about his reasonings besides Thucydides' text :-( 13:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but it is really fascinating how he switches sides 13:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess a reader of Thucydides' text might think: heh, am I reading correct ? 13:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 13:56 <Daan>Perhaps war was a mean to keep Macedonia together. 13:56 <Daan>The Wikipedia article says that Macedonia was falling apart. 13:56 <pietrodn>Alcibiades also switched side... 13:56 <pietrodn>three times :-D 13:57 <Daan>If you invite foreign troops to destroy your own country, maybe your population is prepared to follow you as a strong man. 13:57 <Daan>Wow 13:57 <pietrodn>Athens, Sparta, Athens - then he was killed 13:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Alcibiades - what was his importance again ? 13:57 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up Alcibiades 13:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades 13:58 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: he was the leader of the Sicilian expedition 13:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"He played a major role in the second half of that conflict as a strategic advisor, military commander, and politician." 13:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah the expedition which failed ? 13:58 <Daan>That is a famous one. 13:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"The Sicilian Expedition was Alcibiades' creation, and modern scholars have argued that, had that expedition been under Alcibiades' command instead of Nicias', the expedition might not have met its eventual disastrous fate." 13:59 <pietrodn>One night during preparations for the expedition, the hermai, heads of the god Hermes on a plinth with a phallus, were mutilated throughout Athens. This was a religious scandal and was seen as a bad omen for the mission. Plutarch explains that Androcles, a political leader, used false witnesses who accused Alcibiades and his friends of mutilating the statues, and of profaning the Eleusinian Mysteries. 13:59 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades#Sicilian_Expedition 14:00 <pietrodn>So he switched to Sparta 14:00 <pietrodn>and gave to Sparta some useful information... 14:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 14:00 <pietrodn>and - whooops - Sparta won 14:00 <pietrodn>Uh, he went to Persia, also... 14:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, a lesson in history then for others too to learn 14:01 <Daan>That was in the text: A Spartan old guy said, Sparta is a land power, so we have a disadvatage to the people of the sea (Athens). Our advatage is that we can slowly use diplomacy in our advantage. 14:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>That was Archidamos, King of Sparta 14:02 <Daan>So, Sparta made deals with everybody who was anti-Athens. 14:02 <pietrodn>Yes, also with Persia 14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess every state did this - using advantage wherever possible, only it is not known 14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably states today will do so 14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but under secrecy :-) 14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean not anti-Athens :-) 14:03 <Daan>Yes, but there are always different thoughts within a state of what should be done. 14:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hm I guess in the end survival of the state is important thing 14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine CIA and others deal with information 14:04 <Daan>Yes, that is true. But there are states which dissolved out of free will. 14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is like in chess, that one wins who has the most possibilities still and info gives you an advantage 14:04 <Daan>The county of Holland in 1425 voluntarily became dependent to Burgundy, for instance. 14:04 <Daan>To be stronger. 14:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, interesting 14:05 <Daan>Yes, advantages in power. 14:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I don't know the context of this 14:05 <pietrodn>Alcibiades then helped Thetes in a rebellion against the Thirty Tyrannies 14:05 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetes 14:06 <Daan>Erkan, the nobility had killed itself in a civil war and the cities decided to choose for the duke of Brugundy, who was also count of Flanders. Flanders was the centre of Northern European trade. 14:07 <Daan>Who were the Thirty Tyrannies? 14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>guys, what do you think on this ? we are jumping in history, probably to be effective to read all, we need more time - so how about sticking to one thing e.g. the text ? Then perhaps others can also join us in the meeting ? But definitely we can use the links for another session ? 14:08 <Daan>Okay.

## Was Thucydides right that the Spartans were afraid of Athens?

14:08 <Daan>Question about the text: Was Thucydides right that the Spartans were afraid of Athens? 14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah you mean the reasons which started the war :-) 14:08 <Daan>A text can never be completely trusted, but you shouldn't trust your own judgment as well. 14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book I, 88 14:09 <Daan>Yes. 14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, lets see who wanted war from inside Sparta, perhaps we can understand then ? 14:09 <Daan>Nice point: Athenians claim they had to have an empire to stop Persia, but Sparta even allied with Persia versus Athens. 14:09 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants 14:10 <myrmikonos>its allways disgusting to get in war with the spartans ;) 14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Thcydides told, Sparta was the most convenient people to fight :-) 14:10 <Daan>So, you are pro-Athens, myrmikonos :-) 14:11 <myrmikonos>ahhh, i mean in the view of an enemy 14:11 <pietrodn>Sparta was scared... Athens became very powerful 14:11 <myrmikonos>i am pro greek so far x) 14:11 <Daan>Okay. 14:11 * myrmikonos is laughing 14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess Sparta was afraid of Athens power growth 14:12 <pietrodn>yes 14:12 <Daan>Greece wasn't exactly a unity bakc than 14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also was under infuence by its partners like Corinth 14:12 - Ramac joined 14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when Athens gained power in sea, Corinth lost 14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Ramac 14:12 <Daan>Yes, they had to help them. 14:12 <Daan>Otherwise they would be alone. 14:12 <Ramac>hi Erkan_Yilmaz , pietrodn :) 14:13 <Daan>Hi Ramac 14:13 <pietrodn>Hi Ramac! 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>welcome in the channel Ramac 14:13 <Ramac>:) 14:13 <Daan>Lot of people this time. 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>really and that is great 14:13 <Daan>Me and Erkan had some discussions with only the two of us. 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you specifically joined because of our meeting today Ramac ? 14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah the old times :-) 14:13 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I told him of the meeting :-) 14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn is raising in Erkan's popularity :-) 14:14 <Daan>Ah, great.
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14:14 <pietrodn>:-D 14:14 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: pietrodn says me that she was here 14:14 <Daan>She? 14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you know about the Peloponnesian War already Ramac ? 14:14 <pietrodn>she? 14:14 <Ramac>yes 14:14 <Daan>The she-woman? 14:14 <Ramac>i studied last year at school 14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha, what a small misytpe can have an effect :-) 14:15 * Erkan_Yilmaz opens the door wide for Ramac 14:15 <Daan>Oh he ;-) 14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac have a seat on the couch and talk discuss with us ok ? 14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you want some tea ? 14:15 * Erkan_Yilmaz serves some tea 14:15 <Daan>ah ah ah 14:15 <pietrodn>:-D 14:16 * Erkan_Yilmaz serves also Daan pietrodn assassingr|away myrmikonos 14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next round is on you 14:16 <assassingr|away>:) 14:16 <pietrodn>virtual tea :-P 14:16 <myrmikonos>thaaanx 14:16 <Daan>You got me thirsty, now i am thinking about pancakes and candies, and applepie. 14:16 * Ramac mmh.... tea.. :D 14:16 <Ramac>XD 14:16 <Daan>All because of you, Erkan:-) 14:16 <pietrodn>Daan: aaargh! I'm becoming hungry! :-P 14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we need some energy for the talks so it is a good idea 14:17 * myrmikonos is plopping some sugar-cubes into his cup 14:17 <myrmikonos>well , the lambda power is still in the tea ! 14:17 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back in a min, so could someone summarize for Ramac what we did ? 14:17 <Ramac>thank! 14:17 <pietrodn>Ramac: abbiamo parlato di dopo la pace di Callia 14:18 <myrmikonos>:o 14:18 <pietrodn>myrmikonos: I'm speaking in Italian :-D 14:18 <pietrodn>Ramac: poi Alcibiade fa il voltafaccia 14:18 <Daan>We discussed the wonderfull diplomacy of king Perdiccas II of Macedon and the reason for Sparta to start a war with Athens. 14:18 <Ramac>eheheh.... i can't remember it very well.... 14:18 <myrmikonos>mi kiamo alex :v thats all 14:19 <pietrodn>Ramac; then we said that Sparta was afraid of Athens 14:19 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back 14:20 <Daan>Hi Erkan! 14:20 <pietrodn>we also talked about the origins of Greeks, the first and the second colonization, the Doric invasion... 14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about Sparta and fear - I always find this very amusing 14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because in my mind Sparta is always the strong heroes and associating some attribute like fear to them makes me smile :-) 14:20 <Daan>I think Thucydides as well. 14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it is some other kind of fear than the fear in fighting 14:21 <Daan>A sense of humour can be hidden very deep. 14:21 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: they were a very militaristic polis 14:21 <Daan>The fear of being destroyed. 14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean some kind of power thinking ? 14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that being in a power position makes you act like you act ? 14:22 <Daan>Perhaps the Spartans were more concerned with keeping honour and tradition. 14:22 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: my teacher said that the political organization of Sparta was similar to communism, in some parts 14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - yes, the image of Sparta is everywhere, e.g. the movie 300 - though the historicity there can not be correct .-) 14:22 <Daan>With war communism at least. 14:22 <pietrodn>The presence of the state in Sparta was very strong 14:22 <Daan>It's a pity that Sunny can't tell us the Spartans are bourgeois. 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>why was the presence so strong ? because of the consitution ? 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan :-) 14:23 <pietrodn>The children were educated by the polis, in Athens they were educated by their families e.g. 14:23 <myrmikonos>the battle of the thermophyles against Xerxes was very impressive .. 14:23 * Ramac take his notes.... 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_of_Sparta 14:24 <Daan>myrmikos, yes it was. 14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - yes very good scenes 14:24 <myrmikonos>some 30000 spartans versus 1 million persians? 14:24 <pietrodn>Lycurgus was a mythical legislator 14:24 <myrmikonos>lycurgus [ lykanthrophil? :D ] 14:25 <pietrodn>myrmikonos: Leonidas was very brave 14:25 <Daan>I like the words in the text about dscipline: The Athenians disciplined those who didn't want to fight. And the Spartans want to keep there discipline in the fight versus Athens. 14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>where is this from ? 14:26 <Daan>I will look it up. 14:26 <pietrodn>Sparta had the agoge educational system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge 14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn what was it again with the similarity of war communism ? could you elaborate more on this please ? 14:26 <myrmikonos>[ ah leonidas.. i remember] 14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the strong Leonidas 14:26 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: the education is entirely handled by the state 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, ok 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well this was good and bad in two ways for them :-( 14:27 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: They were very militarized, the children who weren't strong were killed! 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>on the one they had a caste, but which was too small, so they had to fear helot rebellions and could not enact too much far from Peloponnese 14:28 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, this point is very important 14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess back then, when they could have organized in a better way like this, they could have survived 14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine planting in several important locations in Greece such castes would give them the military advantage than being held inside Peloponnese 14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>of course other states would not allow this so easily 14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean with survive: that in these times there is still the city Athens 14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but thought the city Sparta is rebuild it was rebuild after destruction, but now I am jumping in time again too much 14:31 * Erkan_Yilmaz wants to be punished by someone 14:31 <pietrodn>Pausanias, king of Sparta, tried to conquest Byzantium. In Sparta started a rebellion by the Helots, and the Spartans wanted to kill him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_of_Sparta

## Athens, Sparta and their allies

14:31 <Daan>The causes which led to the defections of the allies were of different kinds, the principal being their neglect to pay the tribute or to furnish ships, and, in some cases, failure of military service. 14:31 <Daan>That is what Thucydides writes in Book 1 aphorism 99 14:32 <pietrodn>Daan: in Athens you mean? 14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>defection of allies from Athens I guess, though Spartan allies also threatened Sparta with this (e.g. Corinth with Argos) 14:32 <Daan>Yes, the athenian Empire. 14:32 <pietrodn>ok 14:33 <Daan>So, Athens had to use force to subdue allies, which used to be equal. 14:33 - Ramac left 14:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and other powers did not interfere (at least at the begin) 14:33 <pietrodn>After the Peloponnesian War, Corinth, Argos, Athens and Thebes moved war to Sparta... but I'm jumping too much I think 14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn :-)
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14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, so where were we again ? 14:35 <pietrodn>mmh... the allies? 14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta's fear, then allies
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14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, could you say: Athens had a stronger influence on their allies than Sparta ? 14:35 - Ramac joined 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>welcome back Ramac 14:36 <Ramac>what were you talking about? 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the allies of Sparta + Athens 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and your internet connection probs ;-) 14:36 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: In the past meeting, we said that every polis had to be with Athens, or with Sparta. They couldn't be neutral 14:37 <Ramac>:D 14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they could be or not ? 14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. Corcyra was neutral 14:37 <Daan>Sorry, sudden phonecall. 14:37 <Daan>Have to go to the toilet as well. 14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think they had a treaty somehow regarding this or ? 14:37 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: weel, Melo wanted to be neutral, but Athens destroyed it 14:37 <pietrodn>*well 14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, when was Melos destroyed again ? 14:38 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks this up 14:38 <pietrodn>not again 14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"But in 415 BC, the Athenians, having attacked the island and compelled the Melians to surrender, slew all the men capable of bearing arms, made slaves of the women and children, and introduced 500 Athenian colonists." 14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so this was during the War 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I was referring to before the war 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when both Sparta and Athens had an agreement that states couls also be neutral 14:39 <myrmikonos>beyond christus? 14:39 <myrmikonos>befor 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 415 BC 14:39 <pietrodn>I studied that Melos was destroyed before this date... maybe I'm confusing 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I have the info from WP 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who says WP is right ? 14:39 <myrmikonos>bc befor , ac after 14:39 <pietrodn>yes, I'm looking to the same page 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps we found an error already 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn could you look this fact up and correct it if it is wrong - for the next time, so we can continue then here ? 14:40 <pietrodn>In thucidides there is the melian dialogue 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>whcih book ? 14:40 <pietrodn>yes, I'm going to confirm this fact 14:41 <pietrodn>dunno... gonna check 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Book V, 84-106 14:41 <Daan>I am back again. 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Daan 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - should we continue now 14:41 <Daan>Hi Erkan 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then we don't miss your comments here, ok ? 14:42 <pietrodn>ok 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan we were talking about the force that polis had to join Sparta and Athens, but also that there could be neutral polis 14:42 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I'll check for this fact in the background 14:42 <pietrodn>:-P 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - ok 14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan - what was the last thing we talked before you left ? 14:43 <myrmikonos>"Corcyra was neutral" 14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the influence of Sparta and Athens on their allies ? 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah yeah 14:44 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: On the Internet I found that Athens invaded Melos in 416 BC 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corcyra's neutrality which led to the meetings in Athens and Sparta 14:44 <Daan>Yes it was, Erkan. 14:44 <Daan>Yes, that was a bog issue.

## Corcyra + Athens

14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or better: that Corcyra wanted to join the Delian League 14:44 <Daan>big 14:44 <myrmikonos>:) 14:44 <Daan>Yes, but it was seen as unhonourable by the Corinthians. 14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the 2nd naval force joining hands with the first naval force and therefore threatening Corinth's trades more 14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>unhonourable ? 14:45 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: bad 14:45 <Daan>Corcyra was a Corinthian colony, which wanted to do things their own way. 14:46 <Daan>That was perceived as unhonourable. 14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that is true 14:46 <Daan>So, the punishment was war. 14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or not true, but I think: I assume that is true :-) 14:46 <pietrodn>lol :-D 14:46 <Daan>That are the words of Corinth, wasn't it. 14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, they did say so 14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me search the text 14:47 <Daan>But, Corcyra wanted to be on the Athenian side. 14:47 <Daan>To exchange one tyranny for the other, which doesn't make sense. 14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book I, 38 14:47 <Daan>Maybe, they had enough money and manpower to provide the Athenians with ships. 14:48 <Daan>And a desire to use them for their own use. 14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Corcyra did not want to be destroyed, so they probably even would have jumped into Tartarus :-) 14:48 <Daan>That is true. 14:48 <Daan>Well, they could have made a deal with Corinth. 14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if they wanted already they would have joined Athens long ago, but they didn't so they had their reasons 14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>indeed - interesting option 14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but what would Corinth done then ? 14:49 <Daan>I don't know. 14:49 <Daan>All colonies had to do something. 14:49 <pietrodn>tes, that's true 14:49 <Daan>And Corcyra wasn't doing it. 14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably Corinth would have exchanged government in Corcyra and killed the important leaders 14:49 <pietrodn>*yes 14:49 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Ahens would have fighted Corinth 14:49 <Daan>That could have been it. 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if Corcyra freely wanted to join Corinth, what could Athens do ? 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>freely meaning "under certain agreements" 14:51 <Daan>What is strange: athens was afraid of Sparta and Sparta of athens, according to Thucydides. 14:51 <pietrodn>Daan: they was both very powerful 14:51 <Daan>Athens didn't thought it could survive without Corcyra. 14:51 <Daan>That is true. 14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I assume Athens what that when the Peloponnese league (only landpower with Corinth as 3rd naval power) joins with 2nd naval power that the claims of Sparta would increase much more

## Sparta's army

14:52 <Daan>But Sparta onloy got a well-trained army, which they didn't use for anything, except against Argos, isn't it. 14:52 <Daan>? 14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, they won against Argos and made the 30 years truce 14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but probably also against other cities inside Peloponnese 14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>? 14:53 <Daan>That was an honourable war, for them. Keeping the truce as determined in the traditional rules. 14:53 <Daan>I think so. 14:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: the Spartan force has such numbers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spartiate#How_Many.3F 14:55 <Daan>But those were the elite, wasn't it? 14:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, they also had their helots 14:55 <Daan>If you got a considerable army with 500 elite troops, than it is better than having no elite troops. 14:56 <Daan>Greece wasn't very big. 14:56 <myrmikonos>at school they told me the polis sticked together , whenever there is a greater enemy 14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which brings us to the numbers of the movie 300 :-) 14:56 <Daan>Wow. 14:56 <Daan>I didn't see it. 14:56 <myrmikonos>having an army isn´t useless 14:56 <Daan>Certainly not. 14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but I assume they used mostly w:hoplite at the begin of the war and then later used more the light-armed troops 14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

## Theory: The Peloponnesian War started as a fight between two systems of government

14:57 <Daan>Theory: The Peloponnesian War started as a fight between two systems of government: 14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess the Spartans needed their army mostly for the helots :-) 14:57 <myrmikonos>i´ll recommend "300.avi" 14:58 <Daan>Sparta defended tradition: each polis with his colonies. 14:58 <Daan>Athens defended an expanding empire, without any rules. 14:58 * Erkan_Yilmaz wonders where pietrodn is ? 14:58 <pietrodn>uh? 14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah you are there :-) 14:58 <pietrodn>:-D 14:58 <Daan>:-) 14:59 <myrmikonos>amigo! 14:59 <myrmikonos>:D 14:59 <pietrodn>Daan: Athens imposed very strong rules on its colonies 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Sparta let every polis mostly its freedom besides giving them oligarchic government, but did not ask for regular tributes 14:59 <Daan>athens send a few thousand troops to Macedon. 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I think Athens had some strict rules 15:00 <pietrodn>Athens was very authoritarian 15:00 <Daan>Pietro, that was pure violence, you could see it as a new rule indeed: Athens is the strongest. 15:00 <Daan>Yes 15:00 <pietrodn>Daan: Yes, it is clear in the Melian dialogue 15:00 <Daan>Erkan, did Sparta do that during the war? 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan you mean supporting oligarchic governments after defeating enemies ? 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I assume so, because Sparta started the war with their freedom slogan 15:01 <Daan>Yes 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>something like: free Greece from Athenian tyranny 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and then they could not enact the same way they said of others (at least so openly haha) 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess with Sparta it was like this: in the Peloponnese they could enact so because everybody feared their army 15:02 * pietrodn tel

## Sthenelaidas

15:02 <Daan>The speech of Sthenelaidas? 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and for the other outside territories they did not have the power to enforce it and kept it under such a slogan 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>for the others: Sthenelaidas in book I, 86 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1 15:04 <myrmikonos>>_< 15:04 <myrmikonos><- *reading jam* 15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, Sthenelaidas was pro war 15:05 <Daan>Evil-doer, that sounds famliar. 15:05 <Daan>familiar 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but he had an interesting tactic in the meeting :-) 15:05 <Daan>And that is? 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he said that he could not hear who favored which side and let them physically separate 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine that: 15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then it is very open who voted what and of course his method worked 15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and more people supported the war decision 15:06 <Daan>Maybe it was tradition, and not a method. 15:06 <Daan>But, i don't klnow at all. 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I am not sure either, but Thucydides specifically mentions it, I guess it was mostly decided by who "shouted the loudest" and then if not clear they used stones to collect from the people sitting 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but letting them pysically separate is a strong manipluating method 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but again: it is just what I think about the elections, I can be wrong 15:07 <Daan>That is true. 15:08 <Daan>In Athens there were secret votings, to ensure that nbody knew who voted what. 15:08 <pietrodn>Daan: for ostracism, yes 15:08 <Daan>In other cases it was different? 15:09 <pietrodn>In other cases I don't know how the election was 15:09 <Daan>That is a good remark. 15:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in book I, 87 it is described for Spartan election 15:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"87With these words he, as ephor, himself put the question to the assembly of the Lacedaemonians. He said that he could not determine which was the loudest acclamation (their mode of decision is by acclamation not by voting); the fact being that he wished to make them declare their opinion openly and thus to increase their ardour for war. Accordingly he said: "All Lacedaemonians who are of opinion that the treaty has been broken, and that Athens is guilty, leave your seats and go there," pointing out a certain place; "all who are of the opposite opinion, there." They accordingly stood up and divided; and those who held that the treaty had been broken were in a decided majority." 15:10 <Daan>I have to go soon, so i have to leave you all. 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan yes you told so, we will miss you :-) 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: guys anyone against that we make the chat here again public ? 15:10 <Daan>I think you are right, Erkan. It was a tric. But we have to take into account that Thucydides was an Athenian. 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>advantage: new interested people see what we do and join us more willingly

## next meeting

15:11 <Daan>Next week, 101-125? 15:11 <Daan>Same time, same place? 15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next week: yes, works for me 15:11 <Daan>Many themes can be rediscussed, of course. 15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan - what do you say on making teh chat public ? 15:11 <Daan>Is fine with me. 15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we should write in the agenda for next week what we want to discuss specifically ok ? 15:12 <pietrodn>Daan: with pericles, the political men were randomly draw, not elected 15:12 - Ramac quited 15:12 <pietrodn>with some exceptions 15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn Ramac assassingr|away myrmikonos - you also agree to make the chat public, I will remove private irrelevant data which does not suit the topic 15:12 <Daan>Certain points, you mean. But than we need to have multiple people write the agenda for that. 15:12 <Daan>That can be homework, thinking of some points to talk about. 15:12 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: for me is ok to publish the log 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan I meant because if people know in advance what it is talked about they can know and not just listen 15:13 <pietrodn>For the next meeting: can we shedule it more late? 15:13 <pietrodn>*schedule 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which time would you like ? 15:13 <pietrodn>14.00 e.g. 15:13 <pietrodn>(UTC+1) 15:13 <Daan> 14:00 is good with me. 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz> 14:00 (UTC+1) is fine for me too 15:14 <Daan>I will go now. 15:14 <pietrodn>i think that 13:00 is too early 15:14 <Daan>See you later. 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye Daan 15:14 <pietrodn>ok :-) 15:14 <Daan>Bye now! 15:14 <pietrodn>Bye! 15:14 - Sundance_Raphael joined 15:14 - Daan quited 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Sundance_Raphael :-) 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you just missed Daan 15:14 * Sundance_Raphael appeart without a sound 15:15 <myrmikonos>[ i have to learn to mark my personal relevant nonsense ;) ] 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how is it going Sundance_Raphael 15:15 * pietrodn is quitting, bye! 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos I will remove private data, ok ? 15:15 - pietrodn quited ("Think different!") 15:15 <myrmikonos>ok 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I will send you a link with what was published ok ?
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15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, pietro also quit :-) 15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so I guess there is no meeting anymore for us on the topic ?
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15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: myrmikonos did you like the session ?
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15:21 <myrmikonos>huuhh the session was intense . i keep in mind : read this stuff
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15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, as you see, we did not talk too much on the text itself 15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and if so, we can summarize for you 15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what is important is the participation with many people 15:29 <Sundance_Raphael>kk 15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sundance_Raphael we have already one chat log and I will publish this one (asked about permission), so you could have a look how it is 15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>since you have knowledge about it already, I think you can always easily participate
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