# Robert's Parliamentary Practice/Chapter 20

CHAPTER XX.
SEVENTH DRILL, ILLUSTRATING AMENDMENT OF BY-LAWS, AND NOMINATION AND ELECTION OF DELEGATES AND ALTERNATES.
[This is the next regular meeting of the Community Betterment Society held after the one described in the previous drill. In this drill it is assumed that all motions are seconded, and that all motions that are adopted or lost were previously stated and put. The drill begins just as Unfinished Business and General Orders are to be taken up.]
President. Unfinished business is now in order. At the last meeting notice was given of a proposed Amendment to the by-laws which the secretary will now read.
Secretary [standing, reads the proposed amendment slowly and distinctly so that it may be heard by every one]:
Proposed Amendment to the By-laws.
Substitute for Section 3, Art. VI, the following sections:
"Sec. 3. Regular meetings of the society shall be held on the first and third Thursdays of the month except from June i to Oct. I.
"Sec. 4. Special meetings may be called by the President or by ten members."
Leroy Harvey Charles Hancock.
[The secretary hands the paper to the president and resumes his seat.]
​President. The section of the by-laws it is proposed to replace by those read is as follows: "Art. VI, Sec. 3. The society shall meet twice a month at such times as it may appoint from time to time." The question is on substituting the proposed sections for the present one. Sec. 3 of the substitute is as follows [reads the section]: Are there any amendments proposed to this section?
Mr. A. I move to amend by striking out the word "the" before "month" and inserting "each." [Adopted.]
Pres. Are there any further amendments proposed to Sec. 3 of the substitute? [No response.] There being none the next section will be read. [Reads next section.] Are there any amendments proposed to this section?
Mr. B. I move to strike out everything after the word "President" and insert "and shall be called upon the request of twenty members."
Mr. C. I raise a point of order against that amendment. It increases the modification of the by-law, by changing "ten" to "twenty," and this is prohibited by R. O. R., page 272.
Pres. The chair thinks the gentleman's point is not well taken. Without a by-law on the subject, the only way to have a special meeting is for the society by a majority vote to order one to be held, or for a majority of the entire membership to call a special meeting. The proposed amendment to the by-laws ​allows a special meeting to be called by ten members. Any amendment to this amendment is in order which changes the number required to call a special meeting to a number that is between that required by the proposed amendment, ten, and that required at present, namely, a majority of the membership. Since twenty falls between these numbers the amendment to the amendment is in order. The question is on the amendment to Section 4 of the substitute. [Adopted.] Are there any further amendments proposed to this section? [No response.] There being none, the present section and the two sections it is proposed to substitute for it will be read. [After they are read the chair proceeds:] As many as are in favor of substituting the two sections last read for Sec. 3, Art. VI of the by-laws will rise and stand until counted. [Count made by chair or secretary if assembly is small; if large, the chair should appoint tellers to make the count.] Be seated. Those opposed will rise. [Count made.] Be seated. There are 39 in the affirmative and 8 in the negative. There being two-thirds in the affirmative the substitute is adopted. The next business in order is the election of four delegates to the State Convention. How shall they be chosen?
Mr. D. I move "that nominations be made from the floor and that the election be viva voce."
​Mr. E. I move to amend by striking out "from the floor" and inserting "by a committee of three to be appointed by the chair."
Mr. F. Mr. President, I rise to a parliamentary inquiry.
Pres. The gentleman will state his inquiry.
Mr. F. If the nominations are made by a committee, can additional nominations be made from the floor?
Pres. Yes, after the committee has reported its nominations.
[Amendment adopted and chair states question on amended motion.]
Mr. G. I move the following as a substitute: "That the delegates be both nominated and elected by ballot."
Pres. The club having just adopted an amendment requiring nominations to be made by a committee appointed by the chair, the propriety of this substitute is doubtful as it provides for a different method of making nominations. But the chair gives the substitute the benefit of the doubt and recognizes the motion. The club will decide whether it prefers the method suggested. The question is on substituting the motion, "that the delegates be both nominated and elected by ballot" for the pending motion. [The motion to substitute is adopted, and the president ​continues:] The question is now on the motion, "that the delegates be both nominated and elected by ballot."
Mr. H. Mr. President, have we not already adopted the substitute?
Pres. The club has voted to substitute a new motion for the original motion. It has not, however, decided whether it will adopt or reject the new motion.
Mr. I. I move to amend the pending motion by striking out the word "both" as superfluous.
Pres. The club having inserted all the words in the motion as it now stands, it is not in order, except by general consent, to change these words unless the club reconsiders the vote by which the substitute was adopted.
Mr. I. I request general consent for the word "both" to be struck out of the motion.
Pres. Mr. I requests general consent to have the word "both" struck out of the pending motion. Is there any objection? [Pause.] There being none the word "both" is struck out of the motion. The question is now on the amended motion, "that the delegates be nominated and elected by ballot." [Motion adopted. President continues:] The ayes have it and the motion is adopted. The nominating ballot will now be taken. The chair appoints Messrs. T, ​U, V, and W tellers. The tellers will distribute blank ballots to the members giving one to each member. Each member will write four names on his blank for delegates to the State Convention.
[The tellers distribute the blanks, dividing the assembly among them into nearly equal parts. When the chair sees that the ballots are ready he proceeds as follows:]
Pres. The tellers will collect the ballots. [As soon as they are collected he asks:] Have all voted who care to do so? [If any have been omitted they should say so or hold up their ballots to show that theirs were not collected. The tellers collect those that were overlooked, if any, and the chair continues:] The tellers will count the ballots.
[The tellers, after collecting the ballots, retire to another room and count the ballots as described on page 139. When their written report is ready, they return to the assembly room and the chairman, the first one named, Mr. T, obtains the floor as soon as it is vacant.]
Mr. T. The ballot for nominees for four delegates to the State Convention is as follows:
An additional ballot was cast but was rejected as containing more than four names. [Mr. T hands the written report of the tellers to the president, who reads it again and proceeds:]
Pres. The tellers will now distribute blank ballots for the election of delegates.
Mr. J. Mr. President, I do not understand who are the four nominees. Six have received a majority vote.
Pres. The gentleman has a wrong conception of a nominating ballot. A nominating ballot is for the purpose of allowing each member an opportunity to nominate secretly not more than one person for each position. Thus in the present case a ballot may contain one, two, three, or four names at the discretion of the voter. But if it contains more than four names it has to be rejected, as there are only four delegates to be elected, and no member has a right to nominate more than one person for each position. Any person receiving even a single vote is nominated. The report of the tellers shows that eight persons have been nominated.
Mr. K. Mr. President, is it not now in order to make nominations from the floor?
Pres. No. When a nominating ballot has been ​taken, every member has already had an opportunity to nominate a person for each office.
Mr. L. I move that the nominating ballot be declared the formal or electing ballot.
Pres. The motion is out of order as we are proceeding under an order adopted during this meeting requiring both a nominating and an electing ballot.
Mr. L. I move to reconsider the vote adopting that order.
Pres. The vote cannot be reconsidered as it has been partially carried out, the nominating ballot having been taken.
Mr. L. I move to rescind the vote ordering the election to be by ballot.
Pres. The objection to reconsidering applies equally to rescinding the vote. The motion which the gentleman evidently intended to make is to rescind the unexecuted part of the order, which can be done by a majority vote of the membership, or by a two-thirds vote of those voting, and then the motion to declare the nominating ballot to be the electing ballot will be in order. The question is on the motion to rescind the unexecuted part of the order prescribing the method of nominating and electing the delegates to the State Convention. As many as are in favor ​of the motion will rise and stand until counted. Be seated. Those opposed will rise. Be seated. There are 30 in the affirmative and 18 in the negative. The chair votes in the affirmative, making the affirmative vote 31. The affirmative vote being a majority of the entire membership, 60, the motion is adopted, and the unexecuted part of the order designating the method of electing delegates to the State Convention is rescinded. Mr. L has the floor.
Mr. L. I move that the nominating ballot be declared the electing ballot. [Adopted.]
Pres. The ayes have it, the motion is adopted, and the nominating ballot is declared the electing ballot. Six candidates received more than a majority vote, while there are only four delegates to be elected. The four receiving the highest number of votes are the ones who would be elected, if there were such. But in this case the third, fourth, and fifth candidates received the same number of votes, and therefore only the first two, Messrs. A and B, are elected. The tellers will distribute blanks, and each member will write on his ballot the names of the two delegates he wishes to vote for.
[The business proceeds exactly as in the case of the nominating ballot just described until the tellers are prepared to report, when the chairman, Mr. T, reports as follows:]
​Mr. T. The vote is as follows:
[Mr. T hands the written report as above to the chair, who reads it again, and proceeds:]
Pres. Three candidates have received a majority vote, and therefore the two, Messrs. C and D, who received the greatest number of votes, are elected. The next business in order is the election of four alternates. How shall they be elected?
Mr. M. I move that the alternates be nominated and elected by ballot.
Mr. N [as soon as the question is stated by the chair]: I would like the chair to explain the object of a nominating ballot. From our experience with it just now in electing delegates it seems to me not only useless but a positive hindrance to business.
Mr. M. Mr. President, I rise to a point of order.
Pres. The gentleman will state his point.
Mr. M. Motions relating to voting are undebatable.
Pres. The gentleman is correct, but the member can scarcely be said to have gone any farther than he had a right to in explaining his inquiry. Because a motion is undebatable it does not follow that no one can be allowed to say a word of explanation of the ​question. The chair is supposed to look out for the interests of the assembly and to see that this liberty is not abused so as to interfere with business. Now for the gentleman's inquiry: He is correct in his statement that the vote requiring a nominating ballot for delegate was, in this case, a hindrance to business and perfectly useless. The only object of a nominating ballot is to ascertain the preferences of the members to serve as a guide in voting on the electing ballot. Having a nominating ballot and afterwards declaring it to be the electing ballot does away with all the advantages of a nominating ballot and is identical in effect with having an electing ballot without any nominations. If there is to be but one ballot it should be the electing ballot after nominations have been made from the floor, or by a nominating committee and nominations from the floor.
Mr. N. I move to amend the motion by striking out the word "and" and inserting the words "by a committee of three appointed by the chair, and that they be," so that the motion will read, "that the alternates be nominated by a committee of three appointed by the chair, and that they be elected by ballot."
Mr. M. Mr. President, that is not a proper amendment to my motion. The nominating ballot is an essential part of my motion.
Pres. The chair thinks the amendment is germane, though it would have been in better form if offered as a substitute. The question is on the amendment———
​Mr. M [interrupting]. I appeal from the decision of the chair.
Pres. The only question involved in the decision of the chair is whether nominating by a committee and nominating by ballot are different forms of nominating. If they are, then one is germane to the other, and an amendment changing one form to the other is germane and in order. The case is so plain that the chair cannot entertain an appeal. The question is on the amendment. [Chair states the question.] As many as are in favor of the amendment say Aye. Those opposed say No. The ayes have it and the amendment is adopted. The question is now on the motion, "that the alternates be nominated by a committee of three appointed by the chair and that they be elected by ballot. Are you ready for the question? [Motion adopted.]
Pres. The chair appoints Messrs. X, Y, and Z as the committee. They will please retire and be prepared to report as soon as possible.
[The committee retires to an adjacent room and confers and agrees on four persons to nominate as alternates. During its absence any other business may be transacted, or a recess may be taken for five ​minutes, or at the call of the chair. If business is being transacted when the committee returns, the business may be completed or laid on the table, and the president proceeds:]
Pres. Is the committee prepared to report?
Mr. X. Mr. President, your committee nominates Messrs. E, F, G, and H for alternates.
Pres. The committee reports the following as nominees for alternates to the State Convention: Messrs. E, F, G, and H. Are there other nominations?
Mr. O. I move to accept the committee's report.
Pres. The motion is out of order. The committee was appointed to make certain nominations which it has done. Its nominations are treated the same as nominations from the floor.
Mr. O. But, Mr. President, it is certainly in order to accept a committee's report.
Pres. When a committee reports a nomination, or a resolution, or an amendment, or recommends the adoption of any other motion, it is treated as if the nomination, or resolution, etc., were proposed by a member. If a committee or a member submits, or proposes, a resolution, an amendment, or any other motion, the assembly adopts, accepts, or agrees to, or rejects the proposition. If a committee or a member makes a nomination, this is also treated exactly alike in both cases. Are there any further nominations?
A member. I nominate Mr. J.
​Another member. I nominate Mr. K.
Pres. Messrs. J and K are nominated.
Mr. P. I move that nominations be closed.
Pres. The motion is out of order until a reasonable opportunity has been given members to nominate.
A member. I nominate Mr. L.
Pres. Mr. L is nominated. Are there any further nominations? There being none, nominations are closed. The tellers will distribute the blanks, one to each member, and each member will write four names and no more on his blank. If more than four names are on any ballot it is rejected as illegal. Voting is not limited to nominees. [The ballots arc distributed, collected, and counted as just described in case of electing delegates. Before reporting the vote, however, the chairman of the tellers asks for instructions as follows:]
Mr. T. Mr. President, the tellers are in doubt as to three votes. There are 47 full ballots, but on one of them is the name of Mr. Latmore. There is no member of that name but the name of one of the nominees, Mr. Latimer, sounds like it. Shall the vote be credited to Mr. Latimer? In addition to these 47 full ballots there is one that contains only one name instead of four. What shall be done with it? There is also one ballot entirely blank.
Pres. The vote for Mr. Latmore will be credited ​to Mr. Latimer for whom it was evidently intended The ballot with only one name must be counted, making the number of ballots 48. The blank ballot will be ignored as waste paper.
[When the tellers have completed their report, it is made as follows:]
Mr. T. The vote for alternates is as follows:
Pres. [after reading the tellers' report, announces the result of the vote thus]: Messrs. F, E, G, and K having received the four highest majority votes, are elected alternates to the State Convention. Is there any other business to come before the society?
Mr. Q. I move that we adjourn.
Pres. It is moved and seconded that we adjourn. As many as are in favor of the motion say Aye. Those opposed say No. The ayes seem to have it, the ayes have it, the motion is adopted, and we stand adjourned.
* ↑ When amendments are adopted that demand changes in the numbering of articles, or sections, or paragraphs, such changes are made by the secretary without any action of the society.
* ↑ A motion should never be ruled out of order if the chair has any doubt on the subject.
* ↑ A nominating ballot is illustrated here because it is so commonly used in societies. It is worse than useless if the nominating ballot is made the electing ballot as shown further on in this drill, except in the rare cases of societies that allow a plurality to elect to office.
* ↑ When a motion is made in an improper form the chair should state it correctly. Thus, if it is moved to lay a resolution on the table until 2 P. M., the chair should say, "It is moved and seconded [or the question is on the motion] to postpone the resolution to 2 P. M." [See R. O. R., p. 243.]
* ↑ This motion would be out of order if the by-laws required the election to be by ballot. [See R. O. R., page 202.]
* ↑ The chair should not entertain an appeal from a decision to which there can be no two rational opinions. In this case there can be no two rational opinions as to whether nominating by a committee and nominating by ballot are two different forms of nominating. So if an appeal were made from a decision that the motion to commit is out of order when the motion to amend the motion to postpone is immediately pending, the chair should refuse to recognize it. If the chair abuses this power and refuses to entertain a legitimate appeal the proper course is to move a vote of censure of the chairman.
* ↑ As a general rule the closing of nominations should be left to the chair who is the best judge of the time to close them.
* ↑ From this ruling members may appeal. If the ruling is not sustained, a motion instructing the tellers how to credit the ballots should be adopted.