# Report from the Select Committee on Steam Carriages/Summers

Mr. William Alltoft Summers, Engineer, called in; and Examined.
Are you practically acquainted with the operation of Steam Carriages on common roads?—I am.
Have you ever superintended the building of Steam Carriages?—I have superintended the building of two Steam Vehicles.
What was the weight of the lightest of those Steam ​Carriages?—The lightest of the two was about two tons ten cwt.
Do you give that from guess or from actual weighing of the vehicle?—From actual weighing of the vehicle.
That was without the charge of fuel and water?—Yes; without the charge of fuel and water.
What would that add?—The quantity of water we carried with that vehicle was five cwt., that carried us about eight miles, and the quantity of fuel we carried would be about four cwt, generally, that would last nearly double the time that the water did, we always carried an extra quantity of fuel to meet any exigencies on the road.
On the mean of the distance that would bring it to about four hundred and a half?—Yes.
Then the Steam Carriage and the average charge of fuel and water, and the persons to guide it, would weigh about how much?—About three tons two cwt.
What is the greatest weight which you have known that Carriage to be able to carry exclusive of its own weight and charge?—I remember in one instance that we had ten persons upon it, and that we travelled with those ten persons at the average rate of about nine miles an hour.
On what road did this vehicle, you are speaking of, run?—It ran from Cable-street. Well-close-square, to within two miles and a half of Basingstoke; (it was only an experimental journey, the same vehicle had run in various directions, about the streets and outskirts of London before;) that was the furthest distance we ran with it.
Is it running at the present time?—No.
Why was it given up?—When we arrived within about two miles and a half of Basingstoke, the crank shaft broke, and we were obliged to put it into a barge, and send it back to London.
Is this a Carriage of which the Committee have bad any information?—No; the Committee have bad no previous information respecting this Carriage.
Is this on the same principle as that described by Mr. Ogle?—No; it is not on the same principle.
​Have you a drawing of this Carriage?—I have not; but I can explain the principle pretty clearly.
Have you abandoned the principle upon which this Carriage was formed?—Entirely; except that the boiler, with which it was furnished when we ran down to Basingstoke, was the same with which we travelled in the vehicle, of which Mr. Ogle has given a description.
When you were travelling with those ten persons, did you try to increase the speed?—Yes.
You were not able to do it?—We were not; because the size of our Engines would not consume the quantity of Steam generated by the boiler, and we were not able to go any faster, the Engines not being calculated for taking a sufficient quantity of Steam to produce greater speed.
What was the size of the cylinder with which you worked?—We had three cylinders, each four inches diameter, and the stroke of the piston twelve inches in each.
In the present Carriages which you run on the Southampton road, what is the size of the cylinders?—Seven inches and a half diameter each, and the stroke of each piston eighteen inches.
Do you apply your power immediately from the piston to the crank?—Through the medium of a connecting rod only.
You have witnessed the operation of Mr. Ogle's Carriage on the Southampton road?—I have always been with it.
He has stated that the weight of that is about three tons?—It is about three tons.
What is the greatest weight by actual experiments, exclusive of its own weight, that you have seen that Carriage draw?—We never weighed the present Carriage; but I remember nineteen persons being at one time on the vehicle.
To what distance did you carry the whole of those nineteen persons?—We carried those nineteen persons a distance of about three miles and a half.
Was that on a level road, or on a road with hills?​—We ascended two very considerable hills in the distance; it was in the New Forest.
At what average speed did you travel with those nineteen persons?—We travelled at the average speed of nearly ten miles an hour.
What was the utmost speed with which you travelled?—We ascended one of the hills at the rate of more than fifteen miles an hour.
What do you suppose to be the inclination of that hill, and what the length?—I should think the inelination of that hill would not be less than one in twelve, and the length of it from half to three quarters of a mile; it is one of the steepest hills in the New Forest.
If you are able to drive up one of the steepest hills at the rate of fifteen miles, how is it that you give your average speed at less than ten?—The reason we travelled with greater speed up the hill is, that the fire was better in order on ascending the hill than whilst travelling on the level road, and caused a greater generation of Steam.
You have stated that you went up at the rate of fifteen miles an hour, how did you make that calculation?—By counting the number of revolutions made by the hind wheels.
Are you quite sure there was no logs from slipping during that period?—I am quite sure there was no loss.
Having ascended the most difficult part at the rate of fifteen miles per hour, and placing your mean power at so low as ten miles per hour, and stating the reason of the mean being so low that the fire was in better order at one period than another; does it proceed from any defect in your fire-place which renders it difficult to keep the fire always at a certain power?—At that time we had not the means of stoking or putting fuel on the fire through the centre of the boiler, the consequence of which was, that we were obliged to put a greater quantity of fuel on the fire than we otherwise should have been, which caused the fire to be a considerable time before it burnt through the fresh fuel; but having lately made a trifling ​improvement in our boiler, we now average with the present vehicle fifteen miles per hour.
Were you travelling for hire on that road?—We have never travelled for hire yet, but merely on experimental journies.
You have never made the experiment of weighing your Carriage to ascertain at what rate you can travel with any particular weight?—We never made the experiment except by carrying persons.
Do you find it easy to increase the velocity with any certain weight?—That depends on a great many circumstances; the state of the roads has very great influence on that; but our power is capable of being increased to almost any extent.
As an engineer, what should you say would be the greatest weight which can be carried by a Carriage weighing three tons at the rate of ten miles an hour?—I have no doubt it would be able to carry three tons at the rate of ten miles an hour besides itself; and after the improvements I have in view are completed. I have no doubt that much greater weights may be carried at that rate.
Have you ever tried it?—We have never tried it; but I ground my opinion on having seen the Steam blowing off at both safety-valves, with tremendous violence, during the time we were travelling at the rate of upwards of thirty miles an hour.
What distance have you ever continued travelling at the rate of thirty miles an hour?—We have continued travelling at the rate of thirty miles an hour, four-hours and a half very frequently, and could have continued to have gone longer bad we not required a fresh supply of water, our tank being not quite large enough.
How could you continue to travel at the rate of thirty miles an hour, when you have already given so low a mean of the average of travelling on account of your fire place?—Because it depends entirely on the quality of the fire; we have never found any difficulty in travelling over the worst and most hilly 'roads since our last improvement in the furnace, when the fire is in good order.
​Have you watched the operation of your propelling wheels on the roads?—Continually.
Have you ever seen the operation of a drag on a common coach going down hill?—Very frequently.
What is the effect produced on a road which is nearly dry?—The effect produced on a very hard road when nearly dry is very trifling, but on a soft or gravelly road it does great injury.
Does not it produce a glossy appearance on the rut?—Always.
Is that same effect produced by your Carriage in going down a hill?—No, certainly not, because our wheels in going down hill are always revolving.
By what operation do you decrease the velocity of the Carriage going down the bill so as to check the inclination of itself to run down the hill, and yet keep it under controul?—On arriving at the brow of the hill we throttle or wiredraw the Steam in order to check the velocity of the Engines, and if we find that the hill is so steep that the Carriage would run faster than we wish, we have two drags attached to the hind wheels, and with the foot we press on one drag or on both, as it may be required, and by that means regulate the velocity of the Carriage.
Does not that stop the motion of the wheel?—No, it does not prevent the wheel revolving.
How is the drag applied?—It is a kind of iron band or strap which goes round a portion of the tire of the wheel, and our power of breaking is multiplied by levers to a very great extent.
You have stated that the utmost weight your Carriage would carry, at the rate of ten miles an hour, was three tons; do you think you would be able to carry a much greater weight at the rate of five miles an hour only?—Certainly we should.
To what extent should you increase your power of carrying?—cannot answer that from experience.
At what period of slow motion do you think that the increased expence of fuel would be greater than the use of horses in draft?—I have not ascertained that from experiment; but I think Steam will ​supersede horses in drawing Carriages, even at low velocities.
How often do you find it necessary to clean your boiler?—We have never found it necessary to clean it yet, it has been in operation more than twelve months.
Do you conceive that is owing to the peculiar quality of the water, or that under any circumstances that would happen?—We have had water of every description.
Is there no incrustation upon it?—Not the slightest.
Supposing there were incrustation upon it, would it be difficult to clean it, and would that require an engineer?—It would merely require a common labourer to clean the boiler, which might be done by removing some plugs that communicate with each of the cylinders of which the boiler is composed, and when required may be done with a scraper or wire brush.
What becomes of the carbonate of lime and the sulphate of lime, and so on, which are in solution in different waters?—Every time after we have arrived at our journey's end, we open a cock communicating with the bottom of the boiler; perhaps we do not give the matter time enough to rest, it is all blown out at the pressure of 240 lbs, on the square inch.
Have you ever had your boilers rent?—No, we have never had an instance in which the boiler has given way in any part of it, and in several instances we have had it red hot.
Of what material is it formed?—Of the best charcoal iron.
Have you ever tried it by pressure?—I proved the boiler before it was put into the Steam Carriage at 364 lbs, on the square inch; it will support 740 lbs, on the square inch.
At what pressure do you work?—We usually work it on the road at a pressure between 240 and 260, finding that pressure more economical than any other. What surface of iron is exposed to the fire and heated air?–Two hundred and forty-five superficial feet; the weight of the boiler is eight cwt, two quarters.
​What is the thickness of the iron?—About onetenth of an incb; thin boilers last longer in proportion than thick ones, because the heat sooner passes through into the water, and has not time to act upon the iron.
For what period do you conceive that it is calculated to last?—From having had twelve months' experience. I should say it would last very well two years and a half.
During what portion of the twelvemonth was the Engine in actual operation?—It has not been in constant operation every day; but we have been in the habit of going out four days out of six, and working from eight in the morning till seven or eight o'clock at night: the boiler is not at all injured, it is in the same state in which it was when first put into the vehicle; neither have we had any accident with the machinery, contrary to the opinion of almost every engineer who saw the vehicle before it left London; the vibration or jar being much less on common roads than on a railway, and the whole of our machinery being suspended on springs; the Engines work as smoothly as if they were fixed on the firmest foundation.
Where are the passengers placed, in reference to the boiler?—They are placed in front and in the middle of the vehicle, and the boiler is entirely behind the body of the Carriage and the passengers.
You are frequently in the habit of passing horses?—Yes.
Do you find that they are frightened?—I have occasionally observed them shy, as they sometimes do at a wheelbarrow; but we never had any accident from horses being alarmed.
Do you find it less now than at the commencement of your experiments?—Certainly.
Is there a peculiar noise attends the motion of your Engine?—The noise is not so great as in a vehicle drawn by horses.
Is there any peculiar noise from the escape of your steam?—I cannot say that there is no noise at all; ​there is a noise, but it is so trifling that the rattling of the wheels on the road entirely drown it.
Is there continually steam being let off from the safety valves?—Almost continually.
Does that produce any disagreeable effect to the passengers?—None whatever; all the waste steam is blown into the furnace, which entirely prevents any noise that can be beard on the road.
İt has been stated to the Committee, that in some Steam Carriages actually in operation, there is a very peculiar noise from the escape of the steam, from whence does that proceed?—It proceeds in one Carriage, which I have seen running along the roads, from the steam being blown in at the bottom part of the chimney of the furnace, at a distance very near to the open air.
That may be obviated by a different form of chimney, may it not?—No doubt it may.
You are aware that that principle is one of the most important principles which has been introduced into the working by steam?—I am quite aware, that on the Liverpool and Manchester Railway that is the principle they have adopted with some success. We have produced the same effect by another, and I think better means.
Will you state by what means you produce that effect?—Instead of blowing our waste steam into the chimney, in order to produce a draught, we have a fan or blowing machine, which is driven by the Engines when in operation, and this gives us intensity of heat in the furnace. The waste steam from our Engines goes into a double casing round the furnace; we admit a small portion underneath the fire-bars of the grate, and the remainder is allowed to expand itself into the double casing, after which it comes over the top of the fire, and escapes in the form of invisible vapour.
Then in fact you arrive at the same result, but with this difference, that you increase the draught of the fire by using a certain quantity of the power of your engine, whilst those who introduce the steam into the chimney increase the draught by a power ​which you throw away?—We have tried it in both Mr.W.A, ways, but we find this the most advantageous, because in those Carriages in which the steam is driven into the chimney to produce a draught, the aperture is so much diminished in order to produce velocity of current and corresponding increase of draught, that the waste steam is choaked in escaping from the engines, and produces a greater loss of power than by working the fan.
From your experience in Steam Carriages, do you, conceive that it will be necessary to make any alteration of the present roads, such as paving them for the purpose of this mode of conveyance?—No, certainly not; we have found that our vehicles will travel over every kind of road with great velocity, and up the steepest hills; from observation which I have made very minutely on the operations of the vehicle, my decided opinion is, that if the common roads were put into a tolerably good state of repair, we should be able to carry all the goods which a railway would be able to carry, and at much less expence, taking into consideration the original expence of the railway and its continued wear and tear; I believe I have from a correct source of information, that every yard, of railway loses on an average about four ounces per year in weight when it is in full operation; this loss arises from oxydation, and the action of the great numbers of wheels of the Carriages that pass over it.
Have you travelled over pavements?—Very frequently.
Did you find that your Carriage travelled with greater ease over them?_With much greater ease. Supposing you had a pavement to run on, what increase of power should you gain by running on that rather than on a common Macadamized road?—We find that when we are travelling on a rough bad pavement we do not consume more than one-fourth of the steam we do on a gravelly soft road.
You conceive you increase your power 3-4 on a paved road?—Yes.
What steepness of hill have you ever ascended?— ​One foot in six; I measured it myself; that is the hill at Shirley.
Were there any symptoms of the wheel slipping in that case?—Not the slightest; we had both the wheels in gear at the time we ascended it.
At what velocity did you ascend it?—At a velocity of nearly five miles an hour.
What weight had you?—We had fourteen or fifteen persons on the Carriage.
Did you find any difficulty in working?—Our Engines worked with perfect freedom.
What distance did you travel on that ascent?—The hill is about 200 yards long.
You are now improving the form of the Carriage, are you not?—Our present operations are in improving the form of our vehicle, and the arrangement of the different parts of the machinery.
For what number of passengers will your present Carriage he calculated?—Eight inside and sixteen outside passengers.
How many wheels have you?—Our present vehicle is on three wheels, our proposed Carriages will be on four wheels.
In what space can you turn on a road?—We have frequently turned entirely round on the London road leading from Southampton, in the space in which a post chaise can turn, or rather less.
Supposing you were travelling at the rate of ten miles an hour on a level road, in what number of feet do you suppose you should be able to stop your Carriage entirely?—We should be able to stop the vehicle in the space of twelve feet; I have ascertained this from experiment, when we were descending Staines Bridge, which is very steep, one of the crowd fell down in front of the vehicle, very near the vehicle, we immediately reversed the action of the Engines, and the man escaped without any injury.
When you state that you can stop in twelve feet, is that by reversing the action of the Engines?—No; by merely shutting off the communication between the boiler and the Engines.
But supposing you were in such situation that it ​would be requisite to stop in a much shorter distance, could you do it instantaneously by reversing the Engine?—We could certainly stop in the space of three feet by reversing the Engines; but it would not be prudent to do so in less as it might endanger the lives of the persons on the vehicle by their being pitched or thrown forward.
Have you turned your attention to the question by what mode Tolls would be most fairly charged on such Carriages?—I have not turned my attention much to that subject.
What is the horse power of your Engine, according to the common modes of calculation by engineers?—About twenty horse power.
On the Liverpool and Prescot road the toll for Steam Carriages is as follows: for every Carriage not drawn by horses, but propelled or moved by machinery, any sum not exceeding the sum of 1s. 6d. for each horse power; would you be able to run your coach subject to a toll so high as that?—We certainly should not be able to run it to any advantage.
What advantage in point of expence do you anticipate to the public from the use of steam in propelling Carriages over that by horses?—I have no doubt that when they arrive at tolerably practical state of perfection, passengers will be carried the same distance which they are carried now by horses at the same velocity for one half of the expence, it may be even at less than that in future.
What mode should you suggest as the fairest for placing tolls on those Carriages, by passengers, by the wheels, by the horse power, or by the weight?—I should certainly suggest that the tolls should be levied by the number of passengers the vehicle carries, provided the breadth of the tires of the wheels be increased in proportion; as to vehicles for carrying merchandize. I think the tolls should be in proportion to the weight which such vehicles are capable of carrying, the velocity of the vehicle travelling on the roads not materially affecting the state of them.
Many Turnpike Acts having passed this Session, which place tolls on Steam. Carriages, how would ​Parliament be able to adopt one principle of placing toll on the passengers?—The proprietors of Steam Vehicles will always carry as many passengers as they can, and the greatest number of passengers that they are able to carry should be the standard at which the tolls should be levied.
Supposing that on two roads the toll on a Coach calculated to carry eighteen persons, was 2s, and on the other 3s, how would you propose that any scale should be adopted by which a toll could be introduced applicable to both those roads?—My opinion is that the toll on Steam Carriages ought not to exceed one half of the toil paid by other vehicles drawn by horses, because they do not injure the roads more than in that proportion, probably not so much, the the tires of the wheel having been increased in proportion.
Your new Carriage will be calculated for twenty-four persons, the average of Coaches carry eighteen at their utmost, how would you proportion the tolls on your Carriage and on Carriages drawn by horses?—My opinion is, that it would be but justice that the Steam Vehicle in such case should not pay even more than one-half that which is paid by other vehicles carrying the same number of passengers; therefore supposing the average of Coaches carried sixteen passengers and that the toll charged upon them was 2s., the toll paid by the Steam Vehicle, carrying twenty-four passengers, should be 1s. 4d.
What do you think ought to be the breath of the tire of a Steam Carriage calculated to convey sixteen passengers?—Three inches.
What do you think should be the breadth of the tire of a Carriage calculated to convey twenty-four passengers?—Not less than four inches, probably, it may be found advantageous to make the tire wider than that in practice; I think it probably will.
Do you think that Steam Carriages should be licensed to carry a certain number according to their power?—I think they should.
What do you mean by their power?—It will be to the advantage of every Steam Coach proprietor to ​ carry as many passengers as he can, giving each passenger sufficient accommodation, and he should have a licence for that number and no more; each of the passengers should have the same quantity of space allowed them as they have in the present vehicles drawn by horses; it is my opinion it should be the comfort of the passengers which should be consulted.
Should you have no reference in the licence to the power of the Engine?—I think not; because the danger does not increase, as the power of the Engine increases.
How would you suggest that an equivalent duty should be placed on Steam Carriages, so as not to give them an unfair advantage over common coaches?—I am not able to give an opinion upon that subject.
Can you give any reason why the same amount of duty should not be charged on Steam Carriages as is charged upon the present Stage Coaches?—I cannot give any reason, except that I think it would be extremely improper to place such duties on Steam Vehicles, in their present infant state, as to crush so important an invention.