# Elizabeth Fry (Pitman 1884)/Chapter 7

CHAPTER VII.
EVIDENCE BEFORE THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Public attention was so far aroused on the subject of Prison Discipline, and the condition of criminals, that a Committee of the House of Commons was appointed to examine into evidence respecting the prisons of the metropolis. On the 27th of February, 1818, Mrs. Fry was examined by this Committee, relative to her personal experiences of this work, and her own labours in connexion with it. The clear, calm statements made by her before this Committee cast considerable light upon her doings, and the principles upon which she acted. There is no exaggeration, no braggadocio, no flourish of philanthropy,—simply a straightforward story of quiet but persistent endeavours to lessen the human misery within the walls of the prison at Newgate; for, hitherto, her efforts had been confined to that gaol.
"Query. You applied to the Committee of the Court of Aldermen?
"Ans. Not at first; I thought it better to try the experiment for a mouth, and then to ask them whether they would second us, and adopt our measures as their ​own; we, therefore, assembled our women, read over our rules, brought them work, knitting, and other things, and our institution commenced; it has now been about ten months. Our rules have certainly been occasionally broken, but very seldom; order has generally been observed. I think I may say we have full power among them, for one of them said it was more terrible to be brought up before me than before the judge, though we use nothing but kindness. I have never punished a woman during the whole time, or even proposed a punishment to them; and yet I think it is impossible in a well-ordered house to have rules more strictly attended to than they are, as far as I order them, or our friends in general. With regard to our work, they have made nearly twenty thousand articles of wearing apparel, the generality of which is supplied by the slop-shops, which pay very little. Excepting three out of this number that were missing, which we really do not think owing to the women, we have never lost a single article. They knit from about sixty to a hundred pairs of stockings and socks every month; they spin a little. The earnings of work, we think, average about eighteenpence per week for each person. This is generally spent in assisting them to live, and helps to clothe them. For this purpose they subscribe out of their small earnings of work about four pounds a month, and we subscribe about eight, which keeps them covered and decent. Another very important point is the excellent effects we have found to result from religious education; our habit is constantly to read the Scriptures to them twice a day. Many of them are taught, and some of them have been enabled to read a little themselves; it has had an astonishing effect, I never saw the Scriptures received ​in the same way, and to many of them they have been entirely new, both the great system of religion and morality contained in them; and it has been very satisfactory to observe the effect upon their minds. When I have sometimes gone and said it Mas my intention to read, they would flock upstairs after me, as if it were a great pleasure I had to afford them.
"You have confined yourself to reading the Scriptures, and pointing out generally the moral lessons that might be derived from them?
"Yes, generally so.
"Without inculcating any particular doctrine?
"Nothing but the general Scripture doctrine; in short, they are not capable of receiving any other.
"Nothing but the morals of the Scriptures,—the duties toward God and man?
"That is all; we are very particular in endeavouring to keep close to that. We consider, from the situation we fill, as it respects the public, as well as the poor creatures themselves, that it would be highly indecorous to press any particular doctrine of any kind, anything beyond the fundamental doctrines of Scripture. We have had considerable satisfaction in observing, not only the improved state of the women in the prison, but we understand from the governor and clergyman at the penitentiary, that those who have been under our care are very different from those who come from other prisons. We also may state that when they left Newgate to go to Botany Bay, such a thing was never known in the prison before as the quietness and order with which they left it; instead of tearing down everything, and burning it, it was impossible to leave it more peaceably. And as a proof that their moral and religious instruction have had some effect upon their ​minds, when those poor creatures were going to Botany Bay, the little fund we allow them to collect for themselves, in a small box under our care, they entreated might all be given to those that were going, those who remained saying that they wished to give up their little share of the profit to the others.
"Do you know anything of the room and accommodation for the women in 1815?
"I do not; I did not visit it in that year.
"What was it in 1817?
"Not nearly room enough. If we had room enough to class them, I think a very great deal more might be accomplished. We labour very much in the day, and we see the fruit of our labour, but if we could separate them in the night, I do think that we could not calculate upon the effect which would be produced.
"At present, those convicted for all offences pass the day together?
"Very much so; very much intermixed, old and young, hardened offenders with those who have committed only a minor crime, or the first crime; the very lowest of women with respectable married women and maid-servants. It is more injurious than can be described, in its effects and in its consequences. One little instance to prove how beneficial it is to take care of the prisoners, is afforded by the case of a poor woman for whom we have obtained pardon (Lord Sidmouth having been very kind to us whenever we have applied for the mitigation of punishment since our committee has been formed). We taught her to knit in the prison; she is now living respectably out of it, and in part gains her livelihood by knitting. We generally endeavour to provide for them in degree when they go out. One poor woman to whom we lent money, ​comes every week to my house, and pays two shillings, as honestly and as punctually as we can desire. We give part, and lend part, to accustom them to habits of punctuality and honesty.
"Is that woman still in Newgate, whose husband was executed, and she herself condemned to death, having eight children?
"She is.
"Has not her character been very materially changed since she has been under your care?
"I heard her state to a gentleman going through, the other day, that it had been a very great blessing to her at Newgate, and I think there has been a very great change in her. Her case is now before Lord Sidmouth, but we could hardly ask for her immediate liberation.
"What reward, or hope of reward, do you hold out?
"Rewards form one part of our plan. They not only have the earnings of their work, but we endeavour to stimulate them by a system of marks. We divide our women into classes, with a monitor over every class, and our matron at the head. It is the duty of every monitor to take up to the matron every night an account of the conduct of her class, which is set down; and if they have a certain number of what we call good marks at the end of any fixed period, they have for rewards such prizes as we think proper to give them—generally small articles of clothing, or Bibles and Testaments.
"Be so good as to state, as nearly as you can, what proportion of the women, without your assistance, would be in a state of extreme want?
"It is difficult to say; but I think we average the ​number of eighty tried women. Perhaps out of that number twenty may live very well, twenty very badly, and the others are supported by their friends in some degree. When I say twenty who live very well, I mention, perhaps, too large a number—perhaps not above ten. I think their receiving support from out-of-doors is most injurious, as it respects their moral principles, and everything else, as it respects the welfare of the City. There are some very poor people who will almost starve at home, and be induced to do that which is wrong, in order to keep their poor relations who are in prison. It is an unfair tax on such people; in addition to which, it keeps up an evil communication, and, what is more, I believe they often really encourage the crime by it for which they are put into prison; for these very people, and especially the coiners and passers of bank-notes, are supported by their associates in crime, so that it really tends to keep up their bad practices.
"Do you know whether there is any clothing allowed by the City?
"Not any. Whenever we have applied or mentioned anything about clothing, we have always found that there was no other resource but our own, excepting that the sheriffs used to clothe the prisoners occasionally. Lately, nobody has clothed them but ourselves, except that the late sheriffs sent us the other day a present of a few things to make up for them.
"There is no regular clothing allowed?
"It appears to me that there is none of any kind.
"Have you never had prisoners there who have suffered materially for want of clothing?
"I could describe such scenes as I should hardly think it delicate to mention. We had a woman the ​other day, on the point of lying-in, brought to bed not many hours after she came in. She had hardly a covering; no stockings, and only a thin gown. Whilst we are there, we can never see a woman in that state without immediately applying to our fund.
"When they come in they come naked almost?
"Yes, this woman came in, and we had to send her up almost every article of clothing, and to clothe her baby. She could not be tried the next sessions, but after she had been tried, and when she was discharged, she went out comfortably clothed; and there are many such instances.
"Has it not happened that when gentlemen have come in to see the prison, you have been obliged to stand before the women who were in the prison in a condition not fit to be seen?
"Yes, I remember one instance in which I was obliged to stand before one of the women to prevent her being seen. We sent down to the matron immediately to get her clothes.
"How long had the woman been in gaol?
"Not long; for we do not, since we have been there, suffer them to be a day without being clothed.
"What is the average space allowed to each woman to lie upon, taking the average number in the prison?
"I cannot be accurate, not having measured; from eighteen inches to two feet, I should think.
"By six feet?
"Yes. I believe the moral discipline of a prison can never be complete while they are allowed to sleep together in one room. If I may be allowed to state it, I should prefer a prison where women were allowed to work together in companies, under proper superintendence; to have their meals together, and their ​recreation also; but I would always have them separated in the night. I believe it would conduce to the health both of body and mind. Their being in companies during the day, tends, under proper regulations, to the advancement of principle and industry, for it affords a stimulus. I should think solitary confinement proper only in atrocious cases. I would divide every woman for a few weeks, until I knew what they were, but I would afterwards regulate them as I have before mentioned.
"Has gaming entirely ceased?
"It has of late: they have once been found gaming since we had care of the prison, but I called the women up when I found that some of them had been playing at cards, and represented to them how much I objected to it, and how evil I thought its consequence was, especially to them; at the same time I stated that if there were cards in the prison, I should consider it a proof of their regard if they would have the candour and the kindness to bring me their packs, I did not expect they would do it, for they would feel they had betrayed themselves by it; however, I was sitting with the matron, and heard a gentle tap at the door, and in came a trembling woman to tell me she had brought her pack of cards, that she was not aware how wrong it was, and hoped I would do what I liked with them. In a few minutes another came up, and in this way I had five packs of cards burnt. I assured them that so far from its being remembered against them, I should remember it in another way. I brought them a present of clothing for what they had done, and one of them, in a striking manner, said she hoped I would excuse her being so forward, but, if she might say it, she felt exceedingly disappointed; she little thought of ​having clothing given her, but she had hoped I would have given her a Bible, that she might read the Scriptures. This had been one of the worst girls, and she had behaved so very badly upon her trial that it was almost shameful. She conducted herself afterwards in so amiable a manner, that her conduct was almost without a flaw. She is now in the Penitentiary, and, I hope, will become a valuable member of society.
“You have stated three things which to your mind are essential to the reformation of a prison: first, religious instruction, secondly, classification, thirdly, employment. Do you think that any reformation can be accomplished without employment?
“I should believe it impossible, we may instruct as we will, but if we allow them their time, and they have nothing to do, they must naturally return to their evil practices.
“How many removals of female prisoners have you had in the last year, in Newgate, how many gone to Botany Bay?
“Eighteen women; and thirty-seven to the Penitentiary.
“Can you state out of what number of convicts these have been in the course of a year?
“I do not think I can; but, of course, out of many hundreds.
“In fact, has there been only one regular removal within the last year?
“But one. There is one very important thing which ought to be stated on the subject of women taking care of women. It has been said that there were three things which were requisite in forming a prison that would really tend to the reformation of the women; but there is a fourth, viz. that women should be taken ​care of entirely by women, and have no male attendants, unless it be a medical man or any minister of religion. For I am convinced that much harm arises from the communication, not only to the women themselves, but to those who have the care of them.
“In the present arrangement is it not so with regard to the women?
“It is very nearly so; but if I had a prison completely such as I should like it, it would be a prison quite apart from the men’s prison, and into which neither turnkeys nor anyone else should enter but female attendants and the Inspecting Committee of Ladies except, indeed, such gentlemen as come to look after their welfare.
“In what does the turnkey interfere now with the prison?
“Very little; and yet there is a certain intercourse which it is impossible for us to prevent. And it must be where there is a prison for women and men, and there are various officers who are men in the prison; it is impossible that they should be entirely separate. In the present state of Newgate such a plan as I have in my mind respecting the proper management of women prisoners cannot be put into execution. We must have turnkeys and a governor to refer to; but I should like to have a prison which had nothing to do with men, except those who attended them spiritually or medically.
“Do you believe men to be as much excluded from all communication with the women now as is possible in the present state of Newgate?
“Yes, I think very nearly so. My idea with regard to the employment of women is, that it should be a regular thing undertaken by Government, considering ​(though, perhaps, I am not the person to speak of that) that there are so many to provide for; there is the army and navy, and so many things to provide for them; why should not the Government make use of the prisoners? But I consider it of the utmost importance, and quite indispensable for the conduct of these institutions, that the prisoners should have part of the earnings of their work for their own use; a part they might be allowed to take for tea, sugar, &c., but a part should be laid by that there may be some provision for them when they leave the prison, without their returning to their immoral practices. This is the case, I believe, in all prisons well regulated, both on the continent of Europe and America. In a prison under proper regulation, where they had very little communication with their friends, where they were sufficiently well fed and clothed, constantly employed and instructed, and taken care of by women, I have not the least doubt that wonders would be performed, and that many of those, now the most profligate and worst of characters, would turn out valuable members of society. After having said what I have respecting the care of women, I will just add that I believe that if there were a prison fitted up for us, which we might visit as inspectors, if employment were found for our women, little or no communication with the city, and room given to class them, with female servants only, if there were a thousand of the most unruly women they would be in excellent order in one week; of that I have not the least doubt.”
The natural consequence of this evidence was increased publicity and increased usefulness; the first to Mrs. Fry’s sorrow, and the second to her great joy. Much as she desired to work in secret, it was not ​possible; nor, all things considered was it for the best that she should do so. The prison reform which she desired to see carried out was destined to cover, and indeed, required a larger area than she could obtain. But the fame of her improvements at Newgate, the tales of lions being turned into lambs, and sinners into saints, by the exertions of this woman and her band of helpers, caught the ear and thrilled the heart of the public. The excitement produced among the community deepened and intensified as more of the work became revealed. Representatives of every class in society visited the gloomy precincts of Newgate, in order to see and hear for themselves how far these wonders extended, while at every hospitable and fashionable board the theme was ever the same. At one time Mrs. Fry was at Newgate in company with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other celebrities; while at another time she appeared at the Mansion House, honoured by Royalty, the “observed of all observers.” The Queen of England, among others, was anxious to see and converse with the woman who had with such quiet power succeeded in solving a great social problem, and that where municipal authorities had failed.
Mrs. Fry, although belonging to that religious community which takes not off the hat to Royalty, possessed loyal feelings. Therefore, when Queen Charlotte commanded her to appear at the Mansion House, in order to he formally presented to her, with true womanly grace and respect she hastened to obey. It was intended that the presentation should have taken place in the drawing-room, but by some mistake Mrs. Fry was conducted to the Egyptian Hall, where a number of school-children were waiting to be examined. Mrs. Fry ​occupied a post near the platform; and after a little time the Queen, now aged and infirm, perceived her. As soon as the examination of the children was over she advanced to Mrs. Fry. Her Majesty’s small figure, her dress blazing with diamonds, her courtesy and kindness as she spoke to the now celebrated Quakeress, who stood outwardly calm in the costume of her creed, and just a little flushed with the unwonted excitement, attracted universal homage. Around stood several bishops, peers, and peeresses; the hall was filled with spectators, while outside the crowd surged and swayed as crowds are wont to do. For a few moments the two women spoke together; then the strict rules of etiquette were overcome by the enthusiasm of the assembly, and a murmur of applause, followed by a ringing English cheer, went up. This cheer was repeated by the crowd outside, again and again, while the most worldly butterfly that ever buzzed and fluttered about a Court learnt that day that there was in goodness and benevolence something better than fashion and nobler than rank. This was almost, if not quite, Queen Charlotte’s last public appearance; she very soon afterwards passed to her rest, “old and full of days.”
Ever true to her own womanly instincts, we find Mrs. Fry lamenting, in her journal, that herself and the prison are become quite a show; yet, on the other hand, she recognised the good of this inconvenience, inasmuch as the work spread among all classes of society. Various opinions were passed upon her, and on one occasion a serious misunderstanding with Lord Sidmouth, respecting a case of capital punishment, severely tried her constancy. Some carping critics found fault, others were envious, others censorious and shallow; but neither good report nor evil report moved ​her very greatly, although possibly at times they were the subject of much inward struggle.
This question of Prison Reform at last reached Parliament. In June 1818, the Marquis of Lansdowne moved an address to the Prince Regent, asking an inquiry into the state of the prisons of the United Kingdom. He made a remarkable speech quoting facts relating to the miseries of the gaols, and concluded with a high eulogium on Mrs. Fry’s labours among the criminals of Newgate, giving her the title “Genius of Good.” This step drew public attention still more to the matter, and prison-visiting and prison reform became the order of the day. As public attention had been aroused, and public sympathy had been gained for the cause, it is not wonderful that beneficial legislative measures were at last carried.
Meanwhile the ladies continued their good work. It was one of the cardinal points of their creed, that it was not good for the criminals to have much intercourse with their friends outside. In past times unlimited beer had been carried into Newgate; at least the quantity so disposed of was only limited by the amount of ready cash or credit at the disposal of the criminals and their friends. This had been stopped with the happiest results, and now it seemed time to adopt some measures which should secure some little additional comfort for the prisoners. In order to effect this a sub-matron, or gate-keeper, was engaged, who assisted in the duties at the lodge, and kept a small shop “between gates,” where tea, sugar, and other little comforts could be purchased by the prisoners out of their prison earnings. This step was a successful one, for with the decrease of temptation from without, came an increase of comfort from within, provided they earned ​money and obeyed rules. Plenty of work could be done, seeing that they all required more or less clothing, while Botany Bay could take any number of garments to be utilised for the members of the penal settlement there.
Two months after Lord Lansdowne’s motion was made in Parliament, Mrs. Fry, together with Joseph John Gurney, his wife, and her own daughter, Rachel, went into Scotland on a religious and philanthropic tour. The chief object of this journey seems to have been the visitation of Friends’ Meetings in that part of the kingdom; but the prison enterprise was by no means forgotten. In her journal she records visits to meetings of Friends held at Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, and Knowsley. At the latter place they were guests of the Earl of Derby, and much enjoyed the palatial hospitality which greeted them. They made a point of visiting most of the gaols and bridewells in the towns through which they passed, finding in some of them horrors far surpassing anything that Newgate could have shown them even in its unreformed days. At Haddington four cells, allotted to prisoners of the tramp and criminal class, were “very dark, excessively dirty, had clay floors, no fire-places, straw in one corner for a bed, and in each of them a tub, the receptacle for all filth”. Iron bars were used upon the prisoners so as to become instruments of torture. In one cell was a poor young man who was a lunatic—whence nobody knew. He had been subject to the misery and torture of Haddington gaol for eighteen months, without once leaving his cell for an airing. No clothes were allowed, no medical man attended those who were incarcerated, and a chaplain never entered there, while the prison itself was destitute of any airing-yard. The poor debtors, ​whether they were few or many, were all confined in one small cell not nine feet square, where one little bed served for all.
At Kinghorn, Fifeshire, a young laird had languished in a state of madness for six years in the prison there, and had at last committed suicide. Poor deranged human nature flew to death as a remedy against torture. At Forfar, prisoners were chained to the bedstead; at Berwick, to the walls of their cells; and at Newcastle to a ring in the floor. The two most objectionable features in Scotch prisons, as it appears from Mr. Gurney’s “Notes” of this tour, were the treatment of debtors, and the cruelties used to lunatics. Both these classes of individuals were confined as criminals, and treated with the utmost cruelty.
According to Scotch law, the gaoler and magistrates who committed the debtor became responsible for the debt, supposing the prisoner to have effected his escape. Self-interest, therefore, prompted the adoption of cruel measures to ensure the detention of the unfortunate debtor; while helpless lunatics were wholly at the mercy of brutalized keepers who were responsible to hardly any tribunal. Of the horrors of that dark, terrible time within those prison-walls, few records appear; few cared to probe the evil, or to propose a remedy. The archives of Eternity alone contain the captive’s cries, and the lamentations of tortured lunatics. Only one Eye penetrated the dungeons; one Ear heard. Was not Elizabeth Fry and her coadjutors doing a god-like work? And when she raised the clarion cry that Reformation, not Revenge, was the object of punishment, she shook these old castles of Giant Despair to their foundations.