# Report from the Select Committee on Steam Carriages/Hancock

Mr. Walter Hancock, called in; and Examined.
Are you the proprietor of a Steam Carriage running on a turnpike road?—Yes.
How long have you been running that Steam Carriage?—I dare say about a twelve month this present coach, but I have been working for hire on the road only a month.
Are you the inventor of that particular description of Engine that you make use of?—Yes.
Will you state the progress which you have made in the improvement of your Steam Carriage?—The principal improvement I consider is in the boiler, that of constructing the boiler much lighter than any that are now in use.
Will you be kind enough to give a general outline of your plan?- There are flat chambers which are placed side by side, the chambers being about two inches thick, and there is a space between each two inches; there are ten chambers, and there are ten flues, and under the flues there is six square feet of fire, which is the dimension of the boiler top and bottom; the chambers are filled from half full to two, thirds with water, and the other third is left for steam, there is a communication quite through the series of chambers top and bottom; this communication is formed by means of two large bolts, which screw all, the chambers together, the bottom bolts the bottom part of the chambers, and the top bolts the top part of the chambers, and by releasing those bolts at any ​time all the chambers fall apart, and by screwing M. Walter them they are all made tight again; we have braces to fasten them; the steam is driven out from the centre of one of the flues, and the water is ejected from the pump at the bottom communication for the supply of water.
Does the fire pass between the boxes, or does it pass through them?—It passes only between them. There is no line of communication for the fire made between the boxes-?- Nothing more than the flue through which the fire passes; the sides of the boilers form the chimnies.
Have you ascertained what pressure such boilers are equal to?—I have never gone beyond 400 lbs, on an inch; I have worked it on a road at 400; the average pressure on an inch is from 60 to 100.
At what pressure do you set your safety-valve?—Taking the average of roads, I work at about 70 lbs. upon the square inch.
You have calculated how many square feet of boiler?—At the present Carriage I have 100 square feet of boiler exposed to the fire.
What distance do you run from stage to stage?—What I consider the stages I have run is four miles; but every eight miles I take in water; I go there and back.
You consider your stage eight miles?—Yes.
Do you take in both water and fuel at the end of a stage?—Yes, at the end of every eight miles.
What quantity of water and what quantity of fuel do you use for each stage?—About 7 cwt. of water, and sometimes eight; it depends upon the roads; we consume more steam when the roads run heavy.
How much coal or coke do you use for each stage?—About two bushels of coke.
Do you mean that you take two bushels at the commencement of each stage?—I take more with me. but I always consume a quarter of a bushel per mile. You do not in that include your first charge of coke when you set off?—No, that would vary according to circumstances; If I were in a hurry, I could get the steam up in five minutes, but the average time is ​Mr. Walter about twenty minutes in getting up our steam, and we do not consume more than a bushel.
That is at first starting?—That is at first starting.
Do you apply a second Carriage to your Engine for passengers, or do you carry them in the same Carriage?—The boiler is placed behind the Carriage; there is an engine-house between the boiler and the Carriage; the Engines are placed perpendicular between the passengers and the boiler, and the fore part of the vehicle is for the passengers, so that all the machinery is quite behind the Carriage, and the fore part of the Carriage entirely for the convenience of passengers.
Where does the guide sit?—In the front, the same exactly as a coachman in a common stage.
How many passengers have you carried?—We carry ten; but I am making provision to carry fourteen.
What is the weight of your vehicle?—I should imagine about three tons and a half.
Have you ever weighed it?—Not this Carriage; but the Carriage I had before, the vehicle itself with the engines and boilers, weighed three tons; I consider the present Carriage to weigh from three tons to three and a half tons, with fuel and water.
Have you found the rate of tolls that have been charged at the turnpike gates very high?—On the City Road toll I have paid a shilling; I do not know whether it is according to proportion, for it was a thing that did not embrace my attention at that time; but the highest toll that I have paid is a shilling; but on the road that I run from Stratford to London they told me they would not take it; they would take it another day.
What effect do you think your Carriage has upon the road, in proportion with a Carriage equally loaded, with four horses?—I think, myself, we should rather improve the roads by the operation of our Engines, because a Steam Coach requires broad wheels, perfectly upright and flat on the outside of the tire.
What is the breadth of the tire?—The tires of the present wheels are about three inches and a half.
​What is the diameter of the hind wheels?—Four feet. That is not a proportion that I consider to be working as a profitable diameter; I consider that the diameter that should be used for a Steam Coach is at least five feet.
How wide could you make that tire without losing power?—It depends on the weight; but taking the common coaches, I should say from six to eight inches.
Without injuring the power?—I have no doubt it would be no drawback on the power.
Do you consider that such breadth would be as good as any other, the best you could make?—Yes; because a broad wheel on gravel is considered to be a great advantage; it is a great disadvantage on a road which is between wet and dry; but in those cases we have always an overplus of power blowing off at the safety-valve, and from that circumstance I am rather pleased at having rather a dead road to run upon, because we are obliged to construct the vehicle so as to overcome all obstacles in the road, such as dead gravel, &c.
To how many of your wheels do you apply your power?—To two; occasionally one.
Do you apply it to a crank?—The axletree of the present Carriage is made precisely the same as the common axles now in use, straight and merely bent at the end, and I have a chain which I put on the pave of the wheel, and that communicates with a corresponding chain wheel on the crank shaft of the Engines.
What is the size of the circle on the wheel to which you apply your chain?—About ten inches.
How wide is the corresponding circle on the crank shaft?—The corresponding pulley of the shaft is just the same; so that the power of the Engine is the same exactly as though it were applied to the wheel itself.
You have two wheels; how do you move the first wheel?—There are two Engines working on two cranks, exactly on the same principle as used in common for Stage Coaches; I take the chains; I ​place the Engines four feet from the axletree of the hind wheels, and the communication of the chain is to allow me to put my work on the springs, and the play of the carriage up and down is accommodated by the chain.
Is your cylinder on springs?—Yes, every thing on springs
Do you make use of one or two cylinders?—Two.
What size?—Twelve inches in the stroke, and nine inches in the bore.
Has your Engine met with accidents?—No, except once I broke my chain; but in the course of five minutes we could replace that chain, by taking an extra chain with us.
Are your boilers easily cleaned?—In all the experience I have had with the working of boilers, I have found that they never require cleaning. I consider that the ebullition is so rapid, and the action of water so violent, that it will not allow any dirt to fix.
How long do you calculate one of your boilers would last?—It depends upon the thickness of metal. The boiler we use I consider will last, in locomotive Engines, from a twelvemonth to two years.
What is the thickness of the iron that you use?—I should suppose about the eighth of an inch thick.
Of what material are they composed?—Of the best charcoal iron.
What is the appearance of your Carriage; has it an unsightly appearance?—I think my present Carriage is any way from being handsome, because it has been built entirely for experiments.
Does the chimney rise above the Carriage?—No, you cannot see the chimney.
When steam is let off, where is it let off?—You can see nothing of it.
Then there can arise no annoyance either from smoke, or from waste steam?—None at all.
Do you find that horses are frightened by your Carriage?—I think I may say safely, that not one horse in a thousand will take the least notice of it: occasionally a horse may shy at it. I have seen fine blood horses come along, and shy at a wheelbarrow lying in ​the road, and not shy at my. Engine. There is one very curious instance which I had once occurred, and I was: obliged to the gentleman for the pains he had taken, He had a fine horse on the road, and this horse shyed; he was determined to get over the difficulty, if it were possible; and to make him acquainted with it, he came with the Engine to town; and at last, when we got to London, the horse got quite tranquil, so that he put his head in the engine- house, which is very uncommon, and which is a thing I never saw a horse do before.
Then you anticipate that if such Engines become more common, there will be less difficulty in this respect?—I have no doubt of it.
Does it produce any very extraordinary noise in its motion?—We have worked so quiet latterly, that I have almost run over people on the road, and they have not heard me; I have had to halt very often, they have not been aware of the coach coming.
Under any circumstances, the noise that is anticipated would take place from the defect of the machinery, and not from the machinery itself?—Yes; we make one-third of the noise of a common stage.
When you let off steam, does it produce any violent noise in stopping?—I can give an instance to the contrary which occurred in London, which is the best place to put the thing to a test; about a fortnight or three weeks ago, Mr. Wilks was kind enough to mention my running on the Stratford Road, and I wished him to present a petition front me to the House of Commons, and at the same time requested that he would take a ride with me in my Engine on the Stratford road; I waited three quarters of an hour for him, and the machinery was working the whole of the time; there were hundreds of people walking round it, and I suppose they did not know it was working at all; there was no noise at all in the machinery; and you could not, unless you had gone to the back, know that it was working.
Does spare steam pass off without noise?—Not any.
​Supposing that you were going at full work, and that you had occasion to stop for a passenger, you would be obliged to let off steam?—Yes; but knowing from experience how to obviate a disadvantage of this kind, which of course practice alone has brought to bear, it is probable that a stranger would hardly know it, it is so quiet.
In what part would it be thrown off?—It is divided and thrown off from the fire in every direction, and it is instantly consumed; the force is spent.
Is not that rather a dangerous experiment, to throw a great body of steam upon a confined fire?—No, we have never found any disadvantage from it.
In no circumstances in which the Engine may be at work, have you to let off steam in a way to create a noise?—No; the boiler will not hold any quantity of steam; we let off steam from the safety-valve as fast as we make it; there is no capacity for accumulation; the fault of many of the boilers is, that if any accident happens there is a complete explosion.
Then, of course, the danger is lessened?—Yes, to construct a boiler of that kind has been my object so that the steam may be let off.
Suppose if one of your boilers were to burst, what would happen?—I will give the Committee an instance. I was travelling about nine miles an hour at the time the boiler was the twenty-fourth part of an inch thick. I was working then at 100 lbs. on the square inch with 13 persons on the present vehicle that I have now in use, and all of a sudden the Carriage stopped, and for what reason I was at a loss to know; I got from my stage seat and went to the Engineer to ask him what was the reason he had stopped the steam; he told me he had not stopped the Carriage, and he immediately applied his hand to the gauge cocks; I found there was neither steam nor water in the boiler. I immediately knew that the boiler was burst; they said they did not knw it, as they heard no noise, and I told them that I did not mean they should know it. I said I would show them that it was so, and I took the boiler from the carriage and unscrewed it, and there were four large holes that ​I could put my hand into. This occurred from the chambers being too thin, and they drove all the water out of the boiler, and yet there was no injury to any person; there was not one person that heard any report; there was no steam, and there were no symptoms in any way that the machine itself had burst.
Do your boilers extend under the place where passengers sit?—No, quite at the back.
What is the length of the Carriage?—About 16 feet, and the room the boilers occupy is about three Are the chambers of the boiler placed upright side by side ?-They are placed sideways.
In what circle could you turn your Carriage?—The circle of the inner wheels would be four feet, and the outer wheel would exceed that by the breadth between the wheels; taking the average it would be ten feet.
Supposing you wanted to turn round, what should you do?—If I got into any difficulty, and wished to go back, by applying my hand to the lever I should reverse the motions and run the reverse way.
Supposing that you are travelling in a street of ten feet wide, and that there was another street of ten feet wide branching off at right angles with the first street, would there be any difficulty in turning into it?—Not any, but I could not turn round in that street. In that case I should back the Engine.
Would you check your speed?—That would depend upon the speed I was going at. If I was going at six miles an hour, it is probable that I should not check the speed; but if I were going ten miles, it is probable that I should before I turned round into the street.
Are your fore-wheels and hind-wheels the same diameter?—The fore-wheels are three feet three, and the hind-wheels are four feet.
Can you reverse the action of your Carriage with great ease?—Yes; by simply pulling a lever, it is done momentarily. In my present Carriage I could not; but I have an arrangement of that kind in the other Carriage which I am making.
​Supposing you were going at the rate of eight miles an hour, and that you wished to stop suddenly, in what number of feet could you stop your. Carriage?—I will say twelve feet.
Of course there is equal facility in avoiding any particular object on the road?—Yes.
In stopping so suddenly, would there not be a danger of your being thrown off?—No, I think not.
Have you ever done it?—Yes, I think I have.
Supposing that you wanted to stop in the quickest possible way, at what distance could you stop at that rate of speed?—About four feet, I should think, by backing the Engines, because it is like putting a block to the wheel.
Would there be 'no danger in that?—No, I think not; it would throw a strain on the Engines; the rate of eight miles an hour is not so great;' it is only in extreme cases that that would be done. I am very frequently obliged to pull up very short, from children running in the road.
Of what materials are your wheels made?—Like common dished wheels, they ought to be 'perfectly cylindrical. I merely took them to avoid expence; they were wheels which I had by me.
Are you proprietor of any other coaches?—No.
Have you any means of ascertaining the proportion of friction that there is on your wheels, and those drawn by horses?—No, I have never gone into experiments to any extent upon that point.
Are your wheels shod frequently?—No, I have never had occasion to have the wheels shod, they were not worn out.
For what number of miles could you run without being obliged to shoe your wheels?—I do not know, Do you find any difference of wear between your propelling wheels and your drawing wheels?—No, except in relation to the weight on the hind-wheels. We throw more weight in order to produce friction, to get adhesion to the ground.
Have you any scheme of tolls to produce to the Committee, which you think would be equitable to lay on Steam Carriages, for the use of the road?—I ​have considered the thing a great deal, and after taking every thing into consideration, the, weight of the Engine and the weight of the boiler, and so on, on the one hand, I think.it: is much upon a par with the weight of the horses, and the weight of the coach and the weight of the passengers, on the other.
What would you consider the most equitable mode of charging Steam Carriages?—I think there can be no better mode than charging them as other: Coaches are charged.
Supposing that a common coach at present takes eighteen persons, and you, by improvement of your coaches, could take thirty-six persons, how would you apportion the rate of tolls that you ought to pay?—In that case, I think the fairest way would be to have it in proportion to the number of persons that are carried.
Do you think it should be charged by weight?—That, perhaps, would be as fair a way as any.of charging the toll.
Charging the weight of your Engine as compared with the weight of common Coaches?—Yes.
Have you turned your attention to the improvement of your machine, by affixing a Carriage to it, and making your Engine independent of the Carriage?—Yes; I have considered the thing well in every point, and I think it is much better to construct the Carriage both for passengers and machinery on one arrangement, not to have the thing divided: my reason for considering it an improvement is this; for instance, if a new road is made, the object of the proprietors of that road is to get as heavy a roller as they can, even if it requires eight horses to draw the roller; they do that in order to imbed the gravel to make it solid, and the nearer that Steam Coach approaches that roller, the better it is for the propelling wheels.
With respect to the tolls, are you satisfied with the present tolls you pay?—I think they are exorbitant; from Islington to the City Road they charge me a shilling.
Are you aware what four-horse coaches, with eighteen passengers, pay on the same road?—I am not aware.
​From what cause do you judge it excessive?—From the short distance which I come; I do not know what length of road I should have had to run before I should have been subject to another toll.
Have you considered the subject whether it would be more equitable to charge the Steam Carriages by horse power or by weight, or by the number of passengers?—I think the fairest way would be in proportion to the number of persons they carried, or in proportion to the weight.
What would you give as the basis of your calculation, considering that the number of persons which the different coaches carry varies from eight to eighteen?—I see no other way, excepting that of the number of passengers, or according to the weight.
Have you made any calculation as to the number of horses that the extension of these Carriages will displace with respect to each stage; what horse power is equivalent to the Carriage that you run?—I take a stage to run 100 miles a day, and I reckon upon the average it would take from 48 to 50 horses for the whole distance; the common average is a horse a mile; but from the information I have endeavoured to get, from what I have gathered, I find it is about 48 or 50; I believe it is to be taken backwards and forwards at a horse a mile.
Would your Carriage displace along the road four horses on each stage?—Two ten-horse Engines would displace the whole number of horses along the stage.
Have you made experiments which enable you to answer these questions?—I was not at all prepared; my principal object bas been to ascertain what power I have to do a certain work; I have paid very little attention to horse power.
Do you think that your Carriage is equivalent to a four-horse Carriage on the road, in the number of persons it would draw?—It is more than equivalent to it, from the circumstance of its being able to do more work.
Supposing you have to run seven miles, how many passengers could you carry at your present speed?—Fourteen.
​Supposing that a coach of four horses were to run that seven miles, how many passengers would it take?—It would carry the same number.
What weight, upon a dead level, will set your Carriage in motion on the road if you were to attach a rope to the pole, and suspend that rope over a pulley, and attach a weight to it, what weight will get your Carriage in motion?—It is an experiment I have never tried, and I am not prepared to answer.
Do you know what, if you were to set your Carriage on an inclined plane, is the inclination that will set it moving?—No, that is not a thing which I have tried.
Do all the wheels follow in the same track?—Yes, they do.
Have you ever tried your Carriage up hill on an inclination?—Yes, I have, repeatedly.
Do you find an increased difficulty in proportion to the length of the inclination?—No, we go much slower; but we never find any difficulty.
Have you ever found your wheels slip?—No, excepting once on the City Road, at the time when the frost was on the road; it was quite slippery; and then, for an experiment, I tried to see if I could run up the Pentonville Hill with one wheel only, and I did, but it was with some difficulty towards the top; if I had propelled by the two wheels, there would have been none.
Have you found at what inclination in a frost the wheels will begin to turn?—I never witnessed such a thing.
Are you aware that such a thing will occur?—Yes; but I think there are no hills which are to be found, upon which horses travel, but what a coach would propel itself up.
Have you ever seen your Carriage get into a deep rut?—Yes.
In such a case what generally happens?—If it is a single wheel, it may go round two or three times; if I have two wheels, it is improbable I should get into such a situation.
Do you find peculiar states of the roads upon which ​you travel, more disadvantageous than others to the progress of your Carriage? Yes.
Which do you find the most disadvantageous?—When the roads are between wet and dry.
In going down a hill, are you obliged to lock your wheel in any way?—Yes, if it is much down hill, it depends upon its inclination.
What is the nature of the provision for locking the wheel?—A metallic band bearing upon the outer part of the wheel.
What are the fares that you take, higher or lower than ordinary stages?—They are the same fares as the stage fares, eight-pence from Bow, and nine-pence from Stratford.
How much is that a mile?-Barely two-pence a mile.
In what proportion to what is charged by stage coaches do you think you should be able to charge your fares?—I think the fares would be reduced to two thirds, after a short time, if supported and not over burdened by tolls.
Should you be able to continue running if the fares were reduced to two-thirds?—Yes.
In your present state of knowledge upon this subject, in what proportion do you think the rate of travelling would be diminished?—In the proportion I have stated of two-thirds.
Is it your opinion, that generally speaking, it would be reduced two-thirds?—Not in the outset, but after the thing has had full play.
Have any calculation of the expence of running a coach drawn by four horses, carrying a certain number of passengers, and that of running with your Carriages at the same velocity?—I have endeavoured several times, but I have never been able to get an accurate account of the power and other expences incurred in driving a long stage; but I reckon my own expences will cost from three to four pounds a day, including all expences attached to the coach, wages for engineer, steersman, fuel, oil, &c.
What expence is it a mile upon your coach?—I have taken the one hundred miles, and included the day's expences.
​ Were you ever a stage proprietor yourself?—No. Then from your own knowledge you can state nothing as to the cost of carrying passengers by a stage coach?—No.
Could you, if you were to travel one hundred miles in ten hours, keep up that rate without damage to the machine?—Yes. I reckon the work would be done in eight hours, but the stoppages and one thing and another will take up two hours.