# Note of a meeting held on 21 January 1980 Welsh Language Broadcasting

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Minutes from a meeting held on 21st January 1980 to discuss the Home Secretary's proposals regarding Welsh Language broadcasting.
​NOTE OF A MEETING HELD ON 21 JANUARY 1980
WELSH LANGUAGE BROADCASTING
Present:
| Home Secretary | |
| Mr Wyn Roberts MP, | Mr Geraint Morgan MP |
| Minister of State | Mr Dafydd Elis Thomas MP |
| for Wales | Mr Denzil Davies MP |
| | Mr Geraint Howells MP |
| | Mr A Eired |
| | Mr R Williams |
| 3 OFFICIALS | Mr B Jones |
| PRESENT | Mr G Miles |
The meeting had been arranged at the request of Mr Dafydd Elis Thomas to discuss the Home Secretary's proposals for Welsh language broadcasting on the fourth channel.
2. Mr Morgan thanked the Home Secretary for meeting the delegation and explained that they represented a large body of opinion in Wales, which was firmly in favour of the "fourth channel plan" (ie the concentration of all Welsh language programmes on the fourth channel). Both the Crawford and the Annan Committees recommended this course and Mr Morgan argued that the Conservative Party had also advocated it in their Manifesto for Wales and in The Queen's Speech. Last September, however, the Home Secretary had suddenly announced a change of policy in his speech to the Royal Television Society, and this had been received with considerable disappointment in Wales. Mr Morgan argued that the next 20 years would be of crucial importance for the survival and development of the Welsh language and that Westminster owed a debt to the Welsh people to help save their language. This, he argued, could best be achieved by concentrating all Welsh language programmes on one channel, a solution which Mr Morgan considered would be fair to Welsh and non-Welsh speakers alike.
3. Other members of the delegation reinforced the points made by Mr Morgan. In particular it was argued that many people in Wales had voted for the Conservative Party in the belief that they would institute a Welsh language channel, and it was suggested that if a referendum were held on this subject the majority of the people in Wales would prefer this solution. Radio Cymru, which broadcasts all its Welsh language programmes on one channel, was cited as an example of the success of such an arrangement. It was argued that television had an even greater influence than radio on the public, and in particular on children, and that the survival of the Welsh language would be more easily assured if children were able to watch more Welsh language programmes. The cultural needs of the Welsh people were emphasised and Mr Thomas argued that there was no reason why the arrangements for the fourth channel in Wales should be the same as those throughout the rest of Great Britain: indeed, it was suggested that in Wales there was room for greater ​public service input and that the simple solution would be to broadcast all Welsh language programmes on one channel, with the BBC sharing the channel for this purpose. He recognised that this arrangement would be costly in terms of lost advertising revenue but suggested that the revenue from ITV1 should be sufficient to fund the channel.
4. A note of warning was sounded on behalf of the Welsh Language Society, who argued that both Labour and Conservative Governments had promised Welsh language programmes and had assured the Society that they respected the rights of both Welsh and non-Welsh speakers; nevertheless the Government had now broken this pledge and this was seen generally as a cynical and dishonest manoeuvre which was likely to encourage further unrest on the part of young people in Wales.
5. In response to the points made by the delegation, the Home Secretary said that it was his intention to introduce as soon as possible a Bill on the lines set out in his September speech, and that rumours of delay were entirely unfounded; he recognised that when the Bill was discussed in Parliament, arguments in favour of using the fourth channel for Welsh language programmes would be put forward and he would of course listen carefully to these. If he was convinced that the case was a sound one, he would be prepared to change his policy, although at present he found it difficult to believe that the people of Wales would actually be better off with a fourth channel devoted to Welsh language programmes. He corrected Mr Morgan's assertion that such a channel had been promised in The Queen's Speech, although he accepted that it had been envisaged in the Manifesto. He pointed out that in the circumstances it would have been easier for him to adhere to the Manifesto commitment rather than announce a change of policy which he knew would meet with opposition; nevertheless he was firmly convinced that the arrangements which he now proposed provided the best solution. This was, however, a matter of judgement and he accepted that others held different views. Mr Roberts agreed with the Home Secretary and emphasised that the present plan offered a better deal for the Welsh language. He pointed out that the Welsh language would be treated on a par with the English language and that competition would therefore be created, causing the BBC and the IBA to put more resources into the production of Welsh language programmes. He also argued that if all Welsh language programmes were concentrated on one channel, there might be a danger that they would be scrapped in times of financial difficulties and that they would therefore be safer on two channels. Non-Welsh speakers also had to be considered and Mr Roberts pointed out that they would have cause for complaint if they did not get the benefit of a fourth channel.
6. Mr Thomas took issue with Mr Roberts on the question of competition and argued that while Mr Roberts' view might hold good for the United Kingdom as a whole, it did not make sense in Wales, ​ where, instead of competition, all that resulted was a wasteful duplication of resources. So far as English speakers were concerned, he argued that they need not be deprived of programmes on the fourth channel since these could easily be re-scheduled and shown on ITV1. Even if this could not be done, he objected to the proposition that the deprivation of English speakers was of greater importance than the deprivation of Welsh language speakers. He argued, moreover, that as the number of channels available to the public increased, it would become more important to set aside one channel where Welsh language programmes could be assured, and he suggested that any financial difficulty might be overcome by having separate funding from a different source for Welsh language programmes. In conclusion, he emphasised the strong support which existed in Wales for a separate channel for the Welsh language and argued that the fourth channel plan would help to lessen tension and conflict.
7. Summing up, both the Home Secretary and Mr Roberts pointed out that under the present proposals there would be an increase in the number of Welsh language programmes which were shown on television. They both believed that Welsh language speakers would benefit most from the proposal to split Welsh language programmes between two channels, although the Home Secretary repeated that he would listen to any arguments put forward during the passage of the Bill through Parliament. The meeting concluded.
Private Office 23 January 1980
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