# Transcribed Interview of Angela McCallum, (December 8, 2021)/12:19pm

Layout 2
​[12:19 p.m.]
Ready to go back on the record? Great.
Hi, Ms. McCallum. I wanted to go through some of the documents that you produced to the select committee. If you can turn to your binder, tab 4.
Mr. Brothers. And just for clarity, I'm assuming the document is behind tab 4, right?
Yes, it's the document behind tab 4. It looks like an iMessage dated November 12, 2020.
Do you see that?
The Witness. I do.
Great. So you can take a minute or two to review the document.
Mr. Brothers. Thank you.
Of course.
The Witness. Are we just looking at the first one or all pages?
Yes, a good question. You can look through the various pages—
The Witness. Okay.
and just familiarize yourself. It's definitely not a memory test, and you can refer to the document too. Yes—
Mr. Brothers. Thank you.
—you can take a second to look through it.
The Witness. Okay.
Great.
    BY
Q So we're looking at the document behind tab 4. It looks like it appears to be a communication with "Nick I."
Do you know who Nick I is?
A That would be Nick Ivory.
Q Okay.
A We talked about him earlier. He was the elected officials outreach manager.
Q And you took a minute to look through this document. Do you recall which State this communication concerned?
A Pennsylvania.
Q And do you generally recall this communication with Mr. Ivory?
A What do you mean by "generally recall"?
Q Do you remember receiving this message, now that you've had a chance to look at it, that you had this communication with Mr. Ivory?
A Yes, I remember it.
Q So, if you look at, I believe, the first message you sent to him—because it's a blue bubble. Does that sound right, that you sent that first blue message?
A Yes.
Q Okay. So you ask, "Hey do you have a good relationship with any commissioners in the following counties?" And you list four counties. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q Do you remember why you were asking Mr. Ivory if he had a good relationship with any commissioners in those four listed counties, which are Delaware, Montco, Chester, and Bucks?
​A Yes. If you look at the second page, he sent a message that says, "What do you need to find out about?" And respond, "Just more hearing dates." That was referring to provisional ballot review canvassing, I believe.
Q Okay. Thank you.
And do you recall, in those hearing dates, what they concerned other than, you know, broadly speaking, provisional ballot review?
A I would believe that I was simply trying to find out when we needed to have observers, volunteers at the provisional ballot review.
Q So you don't think this was actually concerning the hearings themselves?
A I believe that a part of provisional ballot review has a type of hearing. I don't know any, you know, more specifics on that. "Hearing" is referencing a part of provisional ballot review.
Q And do you know what relationship the commissioners have in these hearings?
A Just trying to find a local contact who might know what dates these were occurring in these specific counties.
Q Okay. So, when you asked Mr. Ivory for that information, it was just for contact information for people to attend the hearing? Or help me understand.
A So I was asking him if he had a good relationship with any of these county commissioners in these four counties that I listed because I wanted to know if these county commissioners had knowledge of when these hearings for provisional ballot review were taking place.
Q Okay.
A If he had a relationship, it appears that I likely would've asked him to contact one of those individuals, rather than me, a stranger, contacting them.
​Q And is this the kind of information—and you might not know this, and you can tell me—that wouldn't be, like, available, like, publicly on a website?
A I assume you could get the information if you called the county. But, at that time, you know, sometimes calling the county wasn't the most—the quickest thing to do. Sometimes local and county governments aren't very responsive. So it was just a way to gather information on dates.
Q So your recollection is you called—or, excuse me—you asked Mr. Ivory if he had any good relationship—had a good relationship with any of, you know, the four listed county commissioners simply for, like, almost like logistical purposes or scheduling?
A Correct. I stated earlier my role in the provisional ballot review was just scheduling volunteers to be at these counties. So, yes, that's my only goal with these.
Q Understood.
And, if you recall, had someone asked you to reach out to Mr. Ivory to ask him this question?
A Potentially Christina Norton, as my, you know, superior at this given time. I'm not exactly sure.
Q Okay.
And do you remember what, if anything, you did, you know, with the information that Mr. Ivory gave you?
A Well, it looks like he didn't have any information for me, because I said, "No worries if there aren't established relationships there," and then said I was going to have Fitz, referring to James Fitzgerald, call the county GOP chairs.
Q And do you know if—you said Mr. Fitzgerald?
A Or, sorry, Fitzpatrick. I misspoke.
Q Not a problem. Do you know if Mr. Fitzpatrick called the county GOP ​chairs?
A I don't remember.
Q Okay.
And—let's see. Okay. And do you recall, did you do other type of, you know, outreach to other people similar to this, where you were asking if they had a good relationship with commissioners maybe in other counties?
A Nick's—Nicholas Ivory's rale on the campaign, as an elected officials outreach manager, he handled relationships with county commissioners. So the only reason I was asking Nick is because he had been contacting various county commissioners over numerous States for months at this point.
Q Okay.
So, to the best of your understanding, these hearing dates that are referenced on the second page—and I apologize, the Bates is very small. It's how it was produced to us. I believe it's 1574.
A Uh-huh.
Q The hearing dates, those did not concern alleged election fraud or alleged voter fraud? It was just provisional ballot review?
A To my knowledge, this was about provisional ballot review hearings.
Q Okay. Great.
Yeah, just one question. On this document, your colleague Mr. Ivory says that his last day on staff is basically tomorrow, which would've been around November 13th. Do you know, did he leave the campaign, as anticipated, right after that?
The Witness. I assume. I don't remember any conversations I had with him after this.
​ Okay. Thanks. That's all I had.
    BY
Q We'll turn to another document. If you want to turn to the document behind tab 3, it's just a one-page text communication, with the Bates—I think it's 604.
And you can take a minute, you and Mr. Brothers, to review the document.
A Okay.
Q You've both reviewed it?
A Uh-huh.
Q Okay. So this communication is dated November 28, 2020. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q And this is with Mr. Brown and Mr.—excuse me, Ms. Crawley?
A Yes, "Madi" being short for Madison.
Q And we don't have the exact timestamp. That wasn't provided. So I'm not sure what time this was. But if you look at the fourth message down, Mr. Brown asks, "Can you pull all the donors to PA House Speaker Jake Cutler and cross reference them with DJT?"
Do you see that?
A I do.
Q Okay. Do you remember receiving this request?
A Vaguely.
Q Okay. Can you tell us what you remember about what he was asking for?
A He said that he needed myself and Madison to pull the donors, meaning people who donated to Pennsylvania House Speaker Jake Cutler and people who donated to DJT, standing for Donald Trump's campaign, and, you know, seeing what names matched up.
​Q And do you know why Mr. Brown wanted you and Ms. Crawley to see if any of the names matched up between donors of the House speaker and President Trump?
A He didn't specify in this message or in person that I remember.
Q So, as far as his request to pull all donors, it was limited to this communication, and you don't remember him providing any further details as to why he needed that information?
A Can have a minute to—
Q Yes.
[Discussion off the record.]
The Witness. The only other thing I remember about this conversation in regards to, you know, why he might have wanted it: Somewhere else in my document production there was another message after this chain that says something to the effect of, "We want to put pressure on him tonight," and—or tomorrow, or referencing some time in the near future. And I don't know what that's referring to. I just thought that that would be helpful context.
    BY
Q Thank you for that context.
A Uh-huh.
Q So you recall after this chain—and it's possible it was out of order, and I apologize we don't have it here.
A I think so.
Mr. Brothers. I can try to find you, when we take a break, the Bates number. The text she is referring to |am almost certain is in the production. I would think it would come next, but I must admit I don't have the Bates numbers all memorized chronologically in my head.
​  Understood.
The Witness. I saw it yesterday, yeah.
Mr. Brothers. Okay. Okay.
The Witness. I'm for sure it's in the documents.
Mr. Brothers. We're certain it's in there. We can get you a Bates number.
Great. Well, thank you.
    BY
Q So, as I said, we don't have the document here, but, from what you remember, there was a message after this or at some point after where it was putting—it was Mr. Brown saying, we want to put pressure on the Pennsylvania House speaker?
A I think it just said something along the lines of, "We want to put pressure on him tonight." I don't know who he's referring to. I would assume "him" being Speaker Cutler, but I'm not sure.
Can I just do one point of clarification?
The speaker of the House's name—the speaker of the House in Pennsylvania, his name is Bryan Cutler.
The Witness. Oh.
There is also a Senate president in Pennsylvania whose name is Jake Corman. So it looks like this—the name that's referenced here is a bit of a combination between the two.
But was it your understanding, Ms. McCallum, that the person who's being referred to is the person whoa held the office of speaker of the House in Pennsylvania?
The Witness. I assume. There may have been further clarification there once I started this, but I don't remember any—I don't remember. I would assume Speaker Cutler being Bryan, but unsure.
Thanks.
    BY
Q Do you know—you said you recall a message about putting pressure on him tonight. Is that right?
A I—we have to find the document.
Q Okay. Do you remember what was happening around this period of time, such that one might want to put pressure on Speaker Cutler?
A No. Like I said earlier, I wasn't involved in the conversations related to why we were asked to do certain things.
Q Had you been asked this kind of request before, to pull donor data, on other legislators at the State level or Federal?
A None that I recall.
Q So, from your recollection, this was, like, the first time that you'd received this kind of request?
A I think so. I may have been asked to do that—like I described earlier, Madison and I did informal vetting on people. I may have looked, you know, at the FEC website once or twice before in something related to that, but I don't recall any.
Q And with respect to the pressure to put on the House Speaker Cutler, was it your understanding it was financial pressure if it related to pulling donor data?
A I have no idea. I didn't send the message. So you'd have to ask Michael Brown as to what kind of pressure he was referring to.
Q Do you know if anyone pulled the donor data for House Speaker Cutler and cross-referenced them with President Trump?
​A I believe Madison and I—
Q Yeah.
A —did as instructed, but I can't confirm that.
Q So you believe it might have been you and Ms. Crawley that assisted but you're not 100 percent sure. Is that fair?
A Yeah. We were—yes. We were asked to do it, so I assume that we performed that task.
Q And you don't recall what Mr. Brown might have done with this information?
A I do not.
Q And did you do anything further with the information that you pulled other than provide it to Mr. Brown?
A No. I assume I just sent it back to him.
Q And do you recall was it in a spreadsheet or how you transmitted the information to Mr. Brown?
A I was cross-referencing it. I would've very likely used Excel to match up names.
Q Okay. Perfect. Thank you.
A Uh-huh.
Q Turn to the document behindtab5. And if you want to take a minute to review. It's just one page, I believe. I believe it's Bates—I believe that's 59.
A Uh-huh.
Okay.
Q And this is a communication dated November 12, 2020, Is that right?
A That's what I see, yes.
Q There's not a name associated with this text message. Do you recall who ​sent you this message?
Mr. Brothers. One moment, counsel.
[Discussion off the record.]
The Witness. Okay.
Mr. Brothers. Thanks, counsel.
The Witness. Can you repeat the question?
    BY
Q Sure. Do you recall who sent you this message which is behind tab 5?
A No. I would assume, based on the conversation, that it is a provisional ballot, you know, volunteer observer.
Q Great.
And, in her message, she said that—or, excuse me, this person; I'm not sure of the gender—that "we already anticipate having to go to court after our election commission hearing tomorrow. Is there a pre-prepped dec that we can use to adjust for a quick filing?"
Do you know what kind of filing this individual was referring to?
A Based on, you know, the date and the conversation and it being Northampton, which is, I believe, a county in Pennsylvania, you know, I think this is related to provisional ballots for filing? You know, I don't know exactly what she's referring to. There's, you know, a process where they reject or keep provisional ballots in some kind of, you know, hearing format. So I assume that that’s the filing she's referring to.
Q Do you know, when she says a pre-prepped doc, what that means?
A I don't.
Q But you believe it might relate ta something to do with provisional ballots?
​A Correct.
Q And, at the time—this was November 12th—what were you working on with respect to the provisional ballots in Pennsylvania?
A Solely just, you know, coordinating with volunteers who were observing at these particular counties.
Q Do you recall, was there a challenge with respect to the provisional ballots in Northampton around this time?
A I don't know. Like I said, there was a lot of counties that we handled in Pennsylvania, so I won't be able to recall the outcome of any particular county.
Q Is it your understanding that there was a provisional review process in more than one county in Pennsylvania?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And you were involved in the various counties.
A Multiple counties.
Q Multiple counties. So you can't recall the different Pennsylvania counties that you were involved with, with respect to provisional ballot review.
A I don't—I don't think I—I mean, I don't have a comprehensive list in my head of every county. I mean, Christy and I had multiple, multiple counties. So I don't know, you know, what was going on particularly in Northampton on November 12th. I don't recall.
Q And I believe you said the individual who texted you might have been a volunteer. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q So you don't believe this was someone who was working for the Trump campaign at this time.
​A I don't believe so, but I can't confirm. I don't have the number saved, so—
Q Right. Okay. Thank you.
Yeah, just one question. I know that we received all these documents in a production from your firm, Mr. Brothers, but I don't believe we received a privilege log. Can you explain for us the basis for redactions on this document?
Mr. Brothers. Yeah. So the redactions are the First Amendment privilege we asserted in our letter that covers voters and campaign volunteers. But, I should say, that's not only a First Amendment privilege objection but also a legislative purpose and pertinence objection is the basis for that redaction.
Thank you for that response.
Setting that aside, it seems that the information that you redacted here might also be described as redacted for personal, identifying, or private information. Is that an accurate assumption on my part?
Mr. Brothers. That's accurate.
Okay. All right. Let's leave it there, and then we can move on.
Great.
    BY
Q Earlier, you had mentioned you'd done some work in Georgia—is that right?—in connection with the 2020 election? Or with just the recount—or just the—excuse me—the runoff elections in Georgia?
A I performed work with both, both the runoff and the general Presidential election.
Sorry. Let me be more clear. I performed work for the National Republican Senatorial Committee for solely the Senate runoff. Did not do anything for the Senate general.
​And then in my role for the Trump campaign, I performed work in Georgia, not physically in Georgia, but—
Q So let's just walk through the Trump campaign work that you did with respect to Georgia in the 2020 election.
A Okay.
Q Can you tell us, you know, when did you get involved in the Presidential election with respect to Georgia in 2020?
A Well, Georgia was one of our battleground States. Like I mentioned earlier with the elected officials outreach office, Olivia and Nick were, you know, having communications and conversations with State senators, State representatives, county commissioners, potentially county sheriffs as well. So, you know, a lot of those job duties that I mentioned earlier, like collecting information to put into weekly reports, I did that in Georgia.
Um—that's all I have for that question.
Q So I'll just take it step by step.
A Yeah.
Q Did you do work with respect to Georgia for the Trump campaign before election day?
A Before election day, it would be, you know, any kind of communications tracking that Olivia and Nick had me do, in respect to if there was an op-ed published or a radio interview, that was something, or if they had messaging and talking points from a conversation that Olivia had with a State rep, something like that.
Q And when you collected that information, tracked it, do you know how it was being used?
A It was just sent in a—Madison and myself compiled that information into a ​weekly report, and that report went ta Jim. And don't know what Jim O'Connell did with it after that.
Q And who else were you working with with respect to Georgia pre-election-day in the Trump campaign, if you recall?
A Pre-election-day, we were also sending volunteers. When Madison and I assisted the Election Day Operations Team in coordinating travel plans with volunteers who were going to work in Georgia the week of the election, Madison and I called, you know, a couple people and asked, would you be willing to go to Atlanta, Georgia? Something like that.
Q And do you recall what those volunteers would be doing? Or your job was just to send them there, and someone else would give them that information?
A I don't recall any specific tasks that, you know, Madison and I were—we weren't sending people there, saying, you know, this is exactly what you will be doing while you're in Georgia for these days.
Madison and I were really just doing this from a, you know, national level, meaning that, you know, once these people got there, the respective State directors would be telling them what they would be doing.
Q De you recall who the State director for the Trump campaign in Georgia was?
A The State director for election day operations is Robert—or was Robert Sinners.
Q Robert Sinners?
A Sinners, S-i-n-n-e-r-s.
Q And that was at the national level, or was that specifically related to Georgia?
​A He was the Georgia State director of election day operations. But you'd have to confirm with him on his official title. That was just my understanding.
Q And, on election day, I believe you said earlier you were just watching the news—
A Uh-huh.
Q —and watching media reports about ballots and vote counts and whatnot. Is that accurate?
A Yes. On election day, I was still, like I said, just watching the news.
Q Did you have any other responsibilities specific to Georgia on election day, like sending volunteers on election day to Georgia?
A Specifically on election day, I had no communications related to Georgia, except for what was being said in the news. I don't remember if Georgia was called on election night or not. If it was, that's the only thing Georgia-related I would've done that day.
Q And, after election day, on November 3, 2020, what work did you do with respect to Georgia for the Trump campaign specifically?
A The same calls that were made into Michigan for State legislators were also made into Georgia.
Q And when you say "same calls," can you be more specific what you're referring to?
A The document we briefly discussed earlier with the text message script from Michael Brown. I don't know if the exact script was used or if, you know, it was altered slightly to fit what was going on in Georgia. Similar to that is what I'm referring to. Some scripted call.
Q And I believe we have that exhibit, so maybe we should just turn to it now.
​A Okay.
Q Do you want to turn to tab 6? Let's make sure we're all on the same page. The document behind there is a text chain. I believe it's two pages—
A Uh-huh.
Q —beginning with 600. Do you want to take a second to review that?
A Yeah, I don't really need a second to review this.
Q Okay.
A What I want to say about this specific text chain and anything sent in this text chain with these, you know, seven people that I don't—like I said, this message came from a number that I don't recognize. This was something that some random person who somehow has my number sent me. I have no idea what this is.
Q So—okay. I'll just start from the beginning.
A Uh-huh.
Q Okay. So this is a text chain from November 16, 2020. Your recollection is you got this text, you know, randomly. You don't know who even sent it to you.
A That's correct.
Q Okay. So, even if you don't know who sent this to you, did you do anything with respect to their request?
A I did not copy and paste the email letter below, and I did not insert my name, and I did not email Georgia Senator Mike Dugan.
Q So you did not—you did not email—or, did you call Mike Dugan, to your recollection?
A He potentially was on my call list for the State legislator calls instructed by Michael Brown. I don't remember his specific name. It doesn't stand out to me.
Q If you would have called Senator Mike Dugan, would you have used this ​script that's in this text chain we're looking at behind tab 6?
A No.
Q Okay. What would you have—is there a different script you would've used?
A It would be the document behind tab 7.
Q Okay. And so let's turn to tab 7. And, for the record, it's Bates 1570.
So this here, it's called a "Basic Script." Why don't you walk us through what it is that we're looking at?
A Can I have a moment to review this document?
Q Oh, yes, of course. Absolutely.
A Thank you.
Okay.
Q So this appears to be a script to use with elected officials—is that right?—when you're calling them.
A Correct.
Q Okay. How did you use, if at all, this script when you contacted elected officials in Georgia?
A I would've read it.
Q Read it—
A Read it. I mean, called them, read the script.
Q Do you recall who sent you this script?
A This seems to be a variation of the original script I received via text message from Michael Brown. I would assume that this script also came from Michael Brown with edits specific to Georgia.
    BY
​Q Ms. McCallum, just to tie this back to the conversation that we were having before our last break, is this connected with that meeting that you recalled you had with a couple of your colleagues as well as Mr. Brown in a hotel when you were in Philadelphia in late November?
A Yes. There may have been more than one of those same types of meeting with the script being presented to us and us being assigned, you know, which representatives or senators to call, based on what State it was.
Q Okay. And that first meeting that we had just started to talk about before our break, do you remember, was that specific to one State?
A I don't remember what State was called into first.
Q How many of those meetings with accompanying scripts and phone lists do you recall participating in with Mr. Brown?
A I can recall a few States. I'm not sure how many different meetings there were, you know, to go over a specific State. Some of those States were Michigan, as you know; Georgia; Arizona. And Nevada and Pennsylvania come to my mind. I don't know if there were calls performed into both of those States.
Q Okay.
And so I asked you some questions about the first meeting, but perhaps I should've been a bit more broad.
A Uh-huh.
Q In all of the meetings that you had with Mr. Brown related to calls into particular States—and I take your point that it may have been a couple of States that were discussed at the same meeting. But, in all of those meetings, do you remember in any of those meetings Mr. Brown telling you what the purpose was of making these calls?
A No, I don't remember any particular purpose that he mentioned in any ​meeting for any State.
Q Okay.
Whether it was Mr. Brown or someone else who participated in the meeting, did anyone ever tell you or give you an idea of how these calls fit into the overall strategy for the Trump campaign?
A No. Like I said, I wasn't involved in any conversations about strategy, being a low-level campaign employee. This was my first job out of college. No one would've ever talked to me about strategy.
Q Well, in those meetings, when you're talking to Mr. Brown about making these calls, did he ever give you any background information at all about the project, other than the script and the numbers to call?
A In one text message—I don't know what exhibit number it would be—I believe that Michael Brown said something along the lines of "I spoke with Roman," referring to Mike Roman. But that's really all that comes to mind in regards to background on the calls.
Q Okay. Did you ever learn what the relevance was to Mr. Brown of speaking to Roman?
A Well, like I stated earlier, Michael Brown reported to Mike Roman, so a conversation between, you know, my boss and his boss would make sense.
Q Understood. So was it your understanding at the time that Mr. Brown was giving you an assignment that Mr. Roman had either given to him or had directed him to give to you?
A I would assume that that would be the case, but that would be something you'd have to, you know, confirm with Michael Brown.
Q Understood.
​And I asked you a couple questions earlier about that first meeting, but for all of these meetings or any other communications that you had with Mr. Brown about calls to State and local officials, did anyone, you or any of your colleagues, ever raise any concerns about making the calls?
A I had concerns after the, you know, Michigan voicemail was publicized. My concerns were related to the fact that my personal cell phone number had been published on the internet, and, you know, that was my full name. So my concerns were mostly about, you know, how that would affect me personally.
Q Understood. And I'm sorry that that happened.
AYes.
Q Okay. That's all I had.
    BY
Q Do you recall who received this script related to Georgia?
A Are you asking who received the scripts or who received the calls?
Q Who received the actual—the script?
A The actual copy of the script?
Q Right, what we're looking at behind tab 7.
A That would be the same group of people I mentioned earlier with the calls: myself, Madison Crawley, Chelsea Barnett, and Kerrick Kuder.
Q And what was your understanding as to what you were supposed to do with this script?
A This is a script to make the same calls that we've been talking about to the State representatives and State senators.
Q And did you have any sort of ability to edit the script or revise the script?
A As a low-level campaign staffer, you know, I never really altered from the ​script. Like I said, it was a job assignment to me, and that's how I took it. So, no, I don't recall any particular edits that I would've made to it.
I mean, potentially, you know, not using their choice of wards, you know, but very basic. I'm trying to think of an example. Yeah, just rewording things, you know, in my own terms. For example, maybe, you know, not saying my name first and saying that at the end of that sentence. Something just—you know, sentence structure.
Q Are there any other, looking at this, any other statements that stick out to you that you think you might have revised when making a phone call to an elected official?
A No. Nothing more than sentence structure.
Q Okay.
Was it your understanding that you and Madison, Chelsea, and Kerrick were to call the elected officials all around the same time using this script?
A I believe, in the meetings that we've been talking about about making the calls, that after those meetings is when we all went to separate rooms and made the calls. So I would assume it would be, you know, all around the same time.
And I did also want to point out that I believe the script was revised, as well, in an email format, which Kerrick would've been sending.
Q And when you say "revised in an email format," do you mean so it would be structured—
A Structured as an email versus as a call script.
Q Understood.
A Which is also—I think that email is public record as well.
Q For the State of Georgia or for a different State?
A I believe that Kerrick's email is in this article that's cited somewhere in the ​subpoena cover letter.
Q Got it.
A This MLive thing, I think that—
Q For the State of Michigan.
A Yes. I believe I—that's the only State I know of of a specific email. I don't know if Kerrick or anyone else sent emails into other States. That's the only email I was referring to.
Q Is it fair to say that, like, there was this basic script and there might've been some small changes over time but it mostly stayed the same, for purposes of calling the elected officials?
A I don't recall any edits being made to the script.
Q So you think, across the different States, it was more or less similar to the script we're looking at behind tab 7? Is that fair to say? Assuming, you know, understanding people might have—
A For the most part, I mean, this script, I believe, is different than the one that we've been talking about in the text message with Michael Brown. I believe it differs slightly, because there—it's a different script for different States, because, obviously, I wouldn't be telling a representative in Michigan about what was going on in Georgia at the given moment. So—
Q So, if you look at the script and if you look at the paragraph, "I wanted to personally reach out to you on behalf of the President," like, do you recall if that sentence usually stayed across the scripts?
A I can't recall.
Q Okay.
A I can't speak to the specific differences between States. That's in the ​different documents that I presented,
Q When you said you would have these meetings and then go back—I think it was, you said you, Madison, Chelsea, and Kerrick would go back and make the phone calls—was this over the course of a day, a number of hours, or weeks that you would call these elected officials with the script?
A I believe that for all the calls that were made across various States it was a less-than-a-week time span. Like, more along the lines of all calls were made within a couple of days. I mean, these were all made, like I stated earlier, at the very end of November, first couple of days in December.
And, like I stated, when I left Philadelphia, you know, I basically went straight to Georgia, with the exception of stopping in South Carolina fora couple days. Sol would have, you know, moved on to the Georgia Senate runoff at that point. So, very short time period for these.
Q Do you recall if, when you were—I'll ask you this: Were you getting assignments from Mr. Brown about which States to call elected officials from?
A Yes. Assignments on which States to call when, and then also assignments on which one of the four of us—and I believe that Michael was also making these calls, but I don't have any confirmation on that. So maybe let's say the five of us.
Sorry. I forgot the question mid-answer.
Q No, not a problem. So I want to confirm, Mr. Brown gave you and your four colleagues—Madison, Chelsea, and Kerrick—assignments as to which States to call elected officials from. Is that correct?
A Yes, which States and, further, you know, which representatives or which senators in that particular State were also assigned to us.
Q Okay. So Mr. Brown also told you the specific elected officials to call for ​the different States, to the best of your recollection.
A To the best of my recollection. I think that it was also just basically, like, a situation where, you know, I have five, so Madison has five, so Kerrick has five, so Chelsea has five. You know, it was also a just fairness of splitting up people's time as well, you know, so we were all, you know, making five calls or whatever it was.
Q And do you recall that you all were—all the four of you, or potentially five if Mr. Brown was making calls as well, were calling elected officials in more than one State, not just Georgia?
A Never more than one State at a time, I don't believe. So we would all be calling into the same State at one given time.
Q Do you—and I recognize it's been some time—do you recall the order of States that you called elected officials from?
A No. And I really—I can't even speculate on it. I have no idea, the order. I do—actually, I do take that back. I know that Michigan took place sometime before Georgia. But as far as other order goes, no idea.
Q Do you recall if the phone calls were—well, I'll direct you to the document. It mentions on tab 7, if you look at the paragraph starting, "Right now, Mayor Giuliani is presenting experts and witnesses from Georgia to the Senate judiciary committee who will show the vote totals are fatally flawed and do not accurately represent the will of the voters"—so you can see here there's a reference to Mayor Giuliani presenting experts and witnesses. Do you see that?
A I see it, yes.
Q Do you recall whether these calls to the State officials were coordinated with when Mr. Giuliani was presenting experts and witnesses in the State?
A Based on the script, I mean, I can only assume that the timing of those—you ​know, me making the calls and the timing of the presentation match up.
Q Did you have any involvement in Mayor Giuliani's presentation of experts and witnesses in any States in connection with the 2020 election?
A None that I can recall.
I want to go back to something I said earlier about printing. I said that there was a time where I was printing those affidavits and declarations. I don't know what—sorry, I got distracted,
Q That's okay.
A I don't know what exactly that printing was used for. I believe it was some kind of hearing or something like that. So, potentially, a presentation of witnesses could have to do with me printing those documents. But, like I said, I was not the one collecting those affidavits or anything like that. So, directly, no, I don't have anything to do with the presentation.
Q Do you recall ever being introduced to individuals who were described to be experts and witnesses associated with Mr. Giuliani in any of the States?
A No. No introduction to experts or witnesses or any introduction to Mayor Giuliani.
Q In connection with when you received this script, were you provided any further information regarding the substance of what was being—of the claims made in the script?
A Can you repeat the question?
Q Sure, and I can rephrase it.
A Thank you.
Q When you received the script, did you receive any further information about—about the claims being made in the script?
​A Any further information about the claims in the script?
Q So I'll say this: To the extent someone would ask a question about something that you were asking in the script, were you provided any information so you could follow up and potentially answer their question?
A No. Mostly, what I did with these calls is leave voicemails. No one was really answering the phone.
And if I did get a hold of someone and they had a question like that, I would make note of that, note their question or request or whatever it was on a spreadsheet. And I don't know if those notes were ever read or if anyone ever followed up with them.
Q Do you recall anyone asking questions about anything that you said after reciting your script?
A No, I don't recall any particular questions that anyone had.
Q So you don't recall anyone asking any questions about, for example, that when you're calling a State official, elected official, that they have the power to reclaim their authority to send a slate of electors? Do you recall anyone asking questions about that statement?
A No, I don't remember any conversations with State representatives or senators about that, about the power to reclaim.
Q Did you ever ask Mr. Brown or anyone else about the script, any questions about the script?
A No. And I want to repeat myself from earlier: You know, as a low-level campaign staffer who really just looked at this as another job assignment, I didn't really give it much thought.
That's all I have to say.
Q If you go towards kind of the middle of the script, it says, "This is a clear path ​to correct the attempted theft of this election." Do you see that sentence?
A I see it, yes.
Q Do you recall anyone ever giving you any information regarding the so-called attempted theft of the election, like, what you could point to if someone were to ask you what that meant?
A No. And I want to repeat myself. You know, I answered your question about whether or not I'd received background information on this script, and the answer is still no. If anyone ever asked me a question, I would've just made a note of it on a spreadsheet and sent that to—you know, I guess it would be in a shared document with Michael Brown.
Q And, in the document that you provided your notes, was this document already pre-populated with the different elected officials and so you were just going in and filling in notes?
A Can you clarify, particularly the "prepopulated" part? I'm a little confused there.
Q Yes. So, when you—you said that you filled out a document and put in notes after you called elected officials. Is that right?
A Yes. So my name would be—the way that it was laid out is there would be, you know, a senator's name, their contact—senator or representative's name or contact information and, you know, whoever the assigned caller was decided. And we would just basically go in there and say, "Left voicemail," you know, or, if same one actually answered, there would be, you know, a note about what that person said when the phone was answered.
Q Was there any type of follow up if you had left a voicemail with an elected official?
​A Not on my end, unless, you know, they had texted me after that or something like that. You know, it's not like I ever called them. I don't believe I called anyone more than once.
Q Do you know if anyone else was following up with elected officials that you were not able to reach?
A I don't know.
Q And I just want to confirm, did you say the calls to the different elected officials from different States happened within about a week's time, end of November, early December? Is that right?
A Yeah. I would—and instead of a week, I would probably say a couple of days. Definitely less than a week.
Q And so the way it went, Mr. Brown would give you all the State, and you had your assignments, and you'd call up the elected officials using the script provided to you?
A State, script, contact information, and then, yeah, we would make the calls.
Q Do you recall how many elected officials that you called in Georgia in connection with the November 2020 election and, you know, using the script?
A Me personally?
Q Yes.
A I have no recollection of how many calls I made.
Q Is it fair to say because it was too many to count?
A No. I would attribute it more to the fact that this happened, you know, at this point, it would've been over a year ago. I don't remember, you know, the duration of the event, you know, how extensive it was or anything like that, for any particular State.
Q And when you were conducting this outreach, this was all on behalf of the ​Trump campaign, with the elected officials?
A As opposed to on behalf of who?
Q The Republican—the National Republican Senatorial Committee.
A Correct. I was doing this for Trump campaign.
Q And when you were making these phone calls, do you recall where you were?
A In Philadelphia, in a hotel room.
Q Okay. I was just asking because, like, in this script, it says, you know, "calling from Trump campaign headquarters in Washington, D.C.," but you believe you might have been in Philly.
A Yes, I was in Philly. And, like I said, I followed the script.
Q Did you ever contact any elected officials who were not in the spreadsheet that you described?
A No.
Q So your phone calls were limited to your assignments in the spreadsheet?
A Yes.
    BY
Q I just had a couple of questions for you, Ms. McCallum, about the scripts that we were discussing behind tab 7.
A Uh-huh.
Q So my colleague noted the sentence that says, "This is a clear path to correct the attempted theft of this election."
What did you understand "attempted theft" to be referring to?
Mr. Brothers. Just to clarify, understand, to put a date on that, at the time that she was provided the script?
​ Sure. Yeah, that's a helpful clarification.
    BY
Q At the time that you made the calls based on the script that you were given, what did you understand what "attempted theft" referred to?
A You know, I just—like I said, I don't think I really gave it much thought. I really—you know, it was just another job assignment to me.
Q Okay. And, at any later point of time, did you come to have a different understanding of what "attempted theft" might refer to?
A I mean, I believe that that's, you know, another way of—you know, this script's referring to election fraud. But, I mean, I—like I said, I didn't write the script. I don't know what it was referring to.
Q Understood.
And the same question for you about the sentence just above that one, where it says to the audience of State legislators, "You have the power to reclaim your authority to send a slate of Electors."
At the time that you made the calls based on this seript that you were given, what did you understand that to refer to?
A I think I pretty much have the same answer as the previous question. I really didn't give it much thought. I mean, thinking—yeah. I don't have any more to that question.
Q Okay.
And same question for you about that one. At any point later, did you come to have a different understanding of what this refers to, about "authority to send a slate of Electors"?
A Yeah. I mean—sorry. Similar to the question I answered before about ​the line below that, I didn't write the script; I don't know what the intended meaning was. I would assume that the script is referring to an alternate slate of electors. But I don't know beyond that.
Q Okay.
And, before our last break, O think we were talking past each other a little bit about the outcome of the election—
A Uh-huh.
Q —in Pennsylvania, so let me just ask you a question to clarify.
You have described to us that calls were made, based off this script or something similar to it, to legislators in Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, and Pennsylvania, some combination of those States, towards the end of November or early December of 2020. Is that correct?
A That's correct. And I did want to make the clarification, as I don't have any—I can't confirm that calls were made into Pennsylvania and Nevada. I don't have any, like, particular memory of those States.
Q Okay.
A So—but, potentially, yes.
Q Got it.
Those States that I just listed that we're just discussing, do you agree that these are States that had been called for President Biden that then-President Trump had lost in the November election?
A I'd go back to the same problem we were having earlier, as the vagueness of the word "called."
Q Okay. Do you agree that these States that are identified, that we've been talking about and for which you were asked to make calls to State legislators, that the ​outcome of the Presidential election at the time that you were making the calls was that they had been—that, in those States, President Biden had been determined to be the winner of the Presidential election?
Mr. Brothers. I'm going to object to vagueness. I think the problem we're running into here is, determining the results of an election is somewhat complex, right? You have the media call, and we all know that occurs weeks before the formal governmental steps occur.
And so, when you say "outcome determined" or "called," there is absolutely no clarification of what you're meaning, whether you're meaning media's calling this or whether you're meaning that the formal legislative process has been completed.
So she has no guidance for how to determine if she had personal knowledge at the time of the call whether the media had called for that State or whether she had personal knowledge that the State had finished whatever formal process it could be. And I will note that the State's formal processes include multiple actors, like the secretary of state and the legislators and all of that.
And so at what point you're in that process has become the nebulous thing. Sol think I'm going to object to vagueness. I would suggest we really—if you want these questions answered, we really need to get specific.
Okay. How about—
The Witness. Let me—
Sorry. Go ahead.
The Witness. I just have something more to add on that. You know, I'm not a Rolodex of dates. I can't just recite to you when the secretary of state in a certain State said, you know, the election was certified or complete or something like that. I don't know.
​So I just really don't feel like I can answer that question. Even if we, you know, decipher between media and official and all the steps within the official, I just—I don't think that I can fully answer that question.
    BY
Q Okay. Let me try to put this in a different way. Let me rephrase—
A Okay.
Q —one more time, and then we'll take a break.
The selection of States that we've been discussing that you were asked to make phone calls into to reach State legislators, by the time that you were making the calls, do you understand that the purpose of making the calls was to have something change about the outcome of the election?
A I'm going to go back to what I said earlier, is, I was never aware of, you know, what the particular purpose of these calls were. You know, I wasn't looped in on any conversations related to strategy or, you know, as it says here, "the clear path." I was never looped in on these conversations. I can't comment on the purpose of the calls other than I made them because someone told me to and that was my job.
Q Okay.
Were any of the States that you were calling into States where you were asking State legislators to defend the outcome of the election at the time that it was there—at the time that you were making the calls, rather?
A Can you clarify what you mean by "defend the outcome"?
Q Sure. So the sentence that we were just discussing a moment ago in the script refers to sending a slate of electors that will support President Trump. My, sort of, reading of that, understanding of that, is that you're asking the legislators to do something. Is that accurate?
​A I have to say, you know, that that's how the script reads, but I didn't write the script, so I just—I don't know what the author of the script, you know, really meant by that.
Q Okay. I'll ask you just an open-ended question, and then we can take a break.
A Okay.
Q It seems to me that making calls into this particular set of States that we've been discussing was for the goal of effecting some change in the circumstances at the time that you were making the calls. Does that seem accurate to you?
A I really just thought of the calls as, from my perspective, to be more of an informative—of, you know, this is, you know, I'd say, how you could be helpful. I thought of them as more, you know, informative, based on that language.
So, I mean, like I said, I can't speak to the purpose of the calls. I was not involved in those meetings.
Q Okay.
And, at the time that you were making the calls, did you consider the outcome of the election to be determined or not yet determined?
Mr. Brothers. I'm going to object to any question that gets into the witness's personal beliefs about the election. I have numerous objections to that.
The first would be, it's not pertinent to a committee function. The committee is tasked with investigating January 6th and the causes of January 6th. The witness's own mental impressions or own personal political beliefs as to what happened on election day or thereafter or since will not inform this committee in any way to legislate.
Furthermore, there is no legislative purpose. This committee cannot recommend legislation that would affect this witness's or anyone's mental impressions or ​personal beliefs about the election or what happened thereafter.
I am also going to assert a First Amendment privilege objection. By asking her for her personal political beliefs, you are engaging in conduct that could chill political expression, political association, political speech, by people knowing that, if they engage in that, that Congress could bring them before them and ask them about personal political beliefs.
So, for all of those reasons, I'm objecting and I'm instructing Ms. McCallum not to answer that question.
Okay. I'll just respond to a couple of the points that you made.
First, to explain that the charter of the select committee, House Resolution 503, tasks the committee with investigating not only the events of January 6th itself but also the causes of January 6th. And, in particular, one of the things that we are focused on are attempts to interfere or affect the outcome of the election and, in particular, how those actions played out in the States.
So I appreciate all of the answers that your client has given us thus far about these calls and the communications around them, because I think it is clearly related to the focus of the committee, which is also very clearly related to the potential legislation that the committee is considering about changes to the elections process and related statutes in the United States.
I will also say, too, that my questions were directed not at your client's personal individual beliefs about any political issue but, rather, to the context of these calls that she made as an employee of the Trump campaign during the time period after election day and before January 6th.
But, that being said, your objection is noted for the record.
I think we've had enough of this colloquy about these calls for the present ​moment. I'd suggest this is a good time to take a break?
Mr. Brothers. Yes.
The Witness. Yep.
Mr. Brothers. And, kind of—and we can go off the record for this next part.
Yeah, let's go off the record now.
[Recess.]