# Sandra Kwikiriza on the many ways online spaces can be safer for queer people

Youlendree Appasamy: Welcome to the Femininja Podcast. This series was co-curated and co-hosted with our friends at Whose Knowledge? These episodes were recorded during the Decolonizing the Internet, East Africa gathering in Lusaka, Zambia. Welcome everybody to today's podcast with you. I'm Youlendree Appasamy, and I'm the Communications Associate for the #VisibleWikiWomen campaign at Whose Knowledge? And with me today we have…
Kerubo Onsoti: My name is Kerubo Onsoti from the African Women Development and Communications Network, and I am the Digital Media Officer there.
Youlendree Appasamy: And we also have our guest,
Sandra Kwikiriza: Sandra Kwikiriza from HER Internet.
Youlendree Appasamy: Thank you for joining us today, Sandra. We're so excited to have this chat with you. And you can tell us a bit more maybe about HER Internet, how it came into being a little bit for our listeners who might not be aware of the amazing work you've been doing.
Sandra Kwikiriza: HER Internet is an organization I founded in 2018, and we work around issues on supporting digital rights and internet freedoms for structurally silenced women and communities of women who are marginalized. We focus our resources and efforts on LBQ women, so queer women, sex workers, and that. HER Internet was birthed out of the fact that there's a lot of knowledge gaps in terms of the digital space and how queer people navigate that space, and yet we have such a huge presence on there.
Youlendree Appasamy: Sandra, you were telling us more about the landscape in Uganda when it comes to digital rights and skills, especially with queer communities, sex worker communities. So why did you decide to focus on those groups of people in your country?
Sandra Kwikiriza: Yes, so I belong to these communities. I'm a queer woman, and if we don't do this work ourselves, I don't think any external person can fully capture our experiences in the online landscape. But also, I was part of this amazing fellowship called the Safe Sisters Fellowship, which was a year long program that equips civil society leaders, journalists, media personalities with digital security skills, and kind of introduced me to this whole area around digital rights. And out of that fellowship, I realized a need to fill that same space for our communities, for my communities in Uganda, especially. Because Uganda is even at FIFA, Uganda was mentioned as one of the worst examples for infringement on digital rights because of the rampant internet shutdowns and shrinking civic space both online and offline. So for me, it was a privilege to do this work, to start this journey with the people that I started with because it's the mandate of the communities. It's the communities that give me the mandate to do this work. If we didn't have the experiences we have, there would be no need for this work. So HER Internet essentially is supporting queer communities, sex worker communities, in terms of uptake of digital literacy knowledge in terms of information sharing, knowledge building, supporting around digital security, supporting around advocacy against online violence in all its forms.
Youlendree Appasamy: So we've been talking a lot about what decolonizing the internet means for us, from our spheres of knowledge, from our lived experiences, as well as the work we do day-to-day. So in the work that you do day-to-day, how do you feel like the concept of decolonizing is in practice?
Sandra Kwikiriza: I'll just kind of import everything we've been talking about the past couple of days, including today. So the work that HER Internet is doing and the work that I'm doing with HER Internet is decolonizing in the sense that it's centering narratives of queer people, which we don't see often. It's centering narratives of sex workers, which we don't see often. And oftentimes these are, I mean, of course, other communities of people as well, but these are groups of people whose experiences are invalidated. And yet, most of the times we are the ones that kind of innovate ways of doing things because we've been marginalized for so long, but we still have to learn how to navigate this world. Invalidating people's experiences like that means that there is a whole huge gap of access to information, access to information on how to do things a different way, access to information on how to probably be secure in different ways both online and offline.
Because like I said, there is no longer any boundary between online and offline. Our online and offline lives. Everything is just so interconnected that if you're not safe online, there is no way you're going to be safe offline and vice versa. So decolonizing also in the sense of centering narratives of these people and in terms of content creation, in terms of knowledge production, in terms of what content we want to consume. So talking about how one can curate their space to block out the bigotry and all that hate. Decolonizing in the sense that we want to see more queer people access the internet, but also meaningfully engage with the internet and other online platforms. So for me, decolonizing in that sense just kind of brings the whole thing together because there's so many moving parts that just kind of keep adding onto the other. But at the center of it all is that we are ensuring that our focus is on the communities we serve, as opposed to listening to the noise from outside.
So when we have resources, we focus them on these communities of people. However much we work with everyone else, our focus really goes to communities of queer people and sex workers in Uganda. Again, because of shrinking civic space, generally shrinking space everywhere, and the crackdown on queer organizations and queer organizing in Uganda, the crackdown on sex work, organizing in Uganda, all the spill off from election period because during elections, marginalized communities are targeted by politicians or people who want to be in politics as a way to get the masses on their side. So all that violence kind of keeps on spilling over every five years we have that same cycle that just never stops. So decolonizing is very many things, but also all of those things in our context.
Youlendree Appasamy: Thank you for giving us such a multilayered view of decolonizing that it’s not just one moment or one action, it's a bunch of things happening all at once, and it happens in an ongoing process. As you were talking, something that came to mind was the various ways that violences spill out into other spaces, whether it's from the political sphere into the general civic space, whether it's the online to the offline, and I wonder if you could maybe tell us a bit more about maybe some experiences or examples through the work that you've had of ways in which violence offline becomes violence online or vice versa.
Sandra Kwikiriza: That's very interesting actually, because in 2021, we did a research study on experiences of queer people and sex workers with technology-facilitated violence. And the wording of “technology-facilitated violence” was very political in the sense that we didn't want to only look at online violence because there is violence even if you're not on the online space that is technology-facilitated. For example, intimate partner violence that starts out as arguing over someone's pin or password for the phone and then kind of becomes physical violence, or emotional violence, or financial violence, or identity violence and all those other forms of violence that come as that. And then out of that research, we also heard respondents say that one of the other leading causes of online violence is failing offline relationships. So this is, again, could be intimate partners, could be friends, could be family members who you trusted enough to come out to and talk about your identities and how you're navigating this world as a queer person, as a sex worker.
But then when that relationship sours, for whatever reason, the violence comes to the online space, so it becomes stalking, it becomes harassment, it becomes threats of violence like rape threats, death threats, threats to be outed to your workplace, or your neighborhood, or stuff like that. And then also the kind of specific violence that sex workers face from clients around. we've made plans to meet and transact business, but then after business or before business, there's that physical-emotional violence that happens as a result of meeting someone online for whatever reason that you've made. So all those forms of violence kind of are attached to technology at some point.
Kerubo Onsoti: I just like to, because we've talked about violence, and for me, I think the thing that I would like to know the most is how do you ensure that there is safety online for the communities. They're very diverse in their ways, and we know Uganda is very violent when it comes to these communities. So how do you ensure that they're safe? Because I know most of them are very scared to even speak on it. And even sometimes we have sessions where we have to limit what we say we have to hide the country that they're coming from. It's very intense. So how do you ensure that they are protected, especially in the online space?
Sandra Kwikiriza: There is no foolproof way. I think I need to say that right from the start, there is no foolproof way, but the small steps we take like digital security trainings, talking about online violence in its entirety and creating awareness around it and the different ways it manifests, help as kind of preventive measures, as kind of preventive measures. Because also we know online violence is really multilayered, and once that train takes off, it's hard to get off. So online violence, for example, non-consensual sharing of intimate images and information, which then leads to people being outed, which then leads to people's families kicking them out or leaving school or leaving your home while you're renting because the landlord is being some type of way. So what we do mainly is preventive measures: digital security trainings, creating awareness around online violence and how you can mitigate it, but also creating a community of support because online violence is really, it's a very lonely experience. You could be in a room full of all of us and would never know you're experiencing online violence. So having a community of support really goes a long way, even if it's just emotional support, even if it's just “come stay with me for a day or two and just settle your mind”, even if it's, “do you need to leave the country for a while? Do you need to leave Kampala for a while?” Or “do you need to get off the online sphere for a few days or a few weeks and just get your brain in the right frame of mind?” So mostly preventive measures, but also offering support in whatever way we can offer support. Because support could also be someone calling you up and saying, “my video was uploaded on TikTok without my consent, and I'm in a compromising position. What do I do?” And there's nothing at that point that we can do apart from report the account, but also reporting with these platforms. It's about the numbers, and it's highly unlikely that we're going to get the numbers of people to report that account, to take down that content because of the nature of the context we are in. So preventive measures and offering support.
Kerubo Onsoti: You know said that, it just hit me that the whole reporting situation, and I don't know if this is part of colonization, but sometimes if something is reported by Black people, they don't really take it seriously, but if it's reported by white people, they take it down immediately. It doesn't matter if it's two white people or three white people, they'll just make sure as long as this person, this white person feels like they've been offended, then it's not for the internet. So it has kind of taken me back to that.
Sandra Kwikiriza: I mean, I can give two examples, two stark examples of exactly what you just mentioned, the example about Dr. Uju Anya and Jeff Bezos.
Kerubo Onsoti: Oh yeah.
Sandra Kwikiriza: I mean that tweet was doing so well until Jeff Bezos quoted it.
Kerubo Onsoti: That is true.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Right? It was doing so well until Jeff, I mean, I don't think Dr. Uju’s University cared one way or the other while the tweet was still circulating. But when this multi-billionaire white dude said something about it…
Kerubo Onsoti: Who's also a donor in that school.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Exactly, exactly.
Youlendree Appasamy: And she met up with unionists from Amazon.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Exactly, right. There's so many layers of violence that Jeff Bezos directly targeted at Dr. Uju, right. And Twitter in its glory decided to take the white man's stand as opposed to the real issues that Dr. Uju was really bringing out. Because no matter how she said what she said, the truth is still the truth, right? No matter, no matter how she said what she said, it's still the truth and it's still the truth of very many people of African origin. And so the other example now, that's one example of how those companies listen to what we consider the majority voices. So the white male, kind of the example around reporting for Black people. A few years ago there was this post on Facebook around an underage South Sudanese girl who was being auctioned off on Facebook by her family for marriage. So the family went on Facebook, posted her picture and said, we are looking for someone who can offer us a number of cows.
I don't remember how many cows there were, but probably the thousands or whatever, as per their culture. So they were essentially auctioning off this girl. Of course, it was passed off as we are looking for a man, a husband, for our child. But it was really auctioning, and this post stayed up regardless of the reports that were made from South Sudan and from probably allies elsewhere. It stayed up for days and days and days. By the time Facebook took it down, she was already married off, and this girl was about 14 or 15, and the guy who took her was probably like 60-something or 70-something, but because he could make the quota that the family was asking for in terms of cattle and bride price. So that's two different examples of how we experience the online platforms differently, depending on geographical location, color of your skin, your gender, and what the situation is.
Kerubo Onsoti: That is so true. Wow.
Youlendree Appasamy: That is such a stark example of how colonialism is/was not only a historical past, but the digital colonialism comes into it now, and we are seeing it play out real-time.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Online spaces replicate the same oppressive systems we see offline. It's basically we just transfer all the bigotry onto the online spaces. So even as we navigate these spaces, even as we use them for organizing and mobilizing, we need to have that at the back of our minds that this space wasn't created for people like us. It wasn't. So we just have to find a way, an innovative way of doing things, making it work, but the system's already rigged against us.
Youlendree Appasamy: Yes. You have to carve your space out from there, right? Because if you just play by the rules of the game, as it said by other people, for other people, you're going to lose. So I want to take us back to something you said earlier about how creating spaces of solidarity, of emotional support is really an important part of the work that you do. And kind of how having spoken to a lot of the participants of Decolonizing the Internet, East Africa, the connections, the affirmations, the support that's in the space is just invaluable. And it's a place where we can exhale, where we can hug each other, we can laugh, we can dance, we can connect and not have to explain ourselves in ways that we often have to do in other spaces. So, reflecting on your time at DTI, what would you say are some things that you want our listeners to know, listeners who weren't maybe at the convening, takeaways for you, reflections? Any thoughts from the conference?
Sandra Kwikiriza: Very many thoughts. All good.
Youlendree Appasamy: We also welcome that.
Sandra Kwikiriza: No, all good. Yes, I've talked about how the work at HER Internet, is working towards decolonizing the internet, but I think being at the DTI convening here kind of just brought everything home and also expanded my understanding of what decolonizing the internet means. I think when Anasuya was giving a presentation around how these systems have just been kind of layered onto all the foundations of oppression, brought out the whole need to decolonize the internet in its entirety right from the infrastructure to the end user's experience. So that's one of the things I'm taking away from here is expansion of my knowledge around what decolonizing the internet looks like and what it means, but also the resources and the level of knowledge in the room was just vast and massive. Every single person, I swear I had something to learn from every single person in the room because I felt like DTI brought people who are working on separate issues, different issues. By the end of the day, we all saw what our web of connections is. We all see how - I see how I fit into your work. I see how I fit into your work. I see how everyone's work kind of brings everything together. So the convening was rich, really, really rich.
Youlendree Appasamy: Sandra. Oh my gosh. That is…thank you.
Kerubo Onsoti: So Sandra, let me just ask: In your world, what would a decolonized internet look like? How do you imagine it to be?
Sandra Kwikiriza: I imagine where knowledge production from queer people and sex workers is considered legit, is validated in that sense. An example, or to kind of expound on this would be, we know sex workers navigate online-offline relationships really well because this is their daily experience. So they've found a way to navigate this very tough environment. But somehow when we are finding solutions for that, no one ever asks the sex workers, nobody. We all just assume we know best. Everyone else knows best. The sex workers just don't know anything. They probably don’t know how to articulate their issues or they don’t know anything about the digital space or something. But you see their experiences are very valid because they're actually real life issues in our context, right? In our context, not in the context of the West. If it's in Uganda, it's in the Ugandan context. If it's in Kenya, it's in the Kenyan context.
So they are the masters of their experiences. And so I envision an internet where minority voices’ experiences are validated and their knowledge production is considered legit and valid, even if it's not to the status of being cited, but listed it be somewhere in the chain of knowledge, production, validation. And then I envision an internet where safety is not the first thing I think about when I open Instagram or Twitter. Let me just open Instagram to scroll through and see beautiful people and their work or their amazing vacations, or their dogs, their pets. Let me not think about, “oh, if I comment on this post, someone's going to come for me”. Or “if I post this picture, I'm dressed like this way, someone's going to come for me”. Or if I say, “I work with this group of people”, someone's going to come for me. So I envision an internet whereby social media is social media.
If I've gone there to work, I'm working. If I'm going there to chill, I'm chilling. If I'm going there to look for knowledge, basically I'm just walking down the street normally without anyone catcalling me. Similar to that, I also envision an internet that takes into account both the good and bad experiences, and then big tech can listen. So let's not first, I think a few years ago there was no report button on Twitter or any social media platform for that matter. It's users who actually asked for these things. But as a big tech company, shouldn't you be envisioning these things like before we even ask for them? So I envision an internet whereby we don't have to beg big tech for these things because they're already holding the entire industry. They're already holding the space. Can we just not also beg for the bare minimum things?
Like can the report button actually work? If I report, don’t just tell me, “oh, we received your report”. Do something about it. And it shouldn't even be about the scale. If I'm speaking to two people, it should be the same as if I'm speaking to millions of people. And if one person reports a case of online violence, it should be treated the same way as 2 million people reporting that case of violence. Just look into it. If it's baseless, move on. But don't ignore because you don't have enough people reporting. So that's the kind of decolonized internet space I'm envisioning in that utopia.
Youlendree Appasamy: In that utopia, we are making it happen. It needs to happen yesterday.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Yeah, one step at a time. All this will eventually come together. I have no doubt. I have no doubt.
Kerubo Onsoti: I like your optimism. Yes.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Listen, there is this amazing feminist in Uganda called Twasiima, and she always, I had a quote from her one day, and I live by it. “Live as though you're free, even in un-free world”. ”Live as though you're free, even in an unfree world”.
Kerubo Onsoti: I have goosebumps.
Youlendree Appasamy: You need to get that tattooed.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Yes. That's how I move in the world. That's how I move in the world. Every day I wake up and say, I am free today. I'm going to do what I want to do and I'll do it. Yeah.
Youlendree Appasamy: That is such a powerful way to navigate the world.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Listen, there is no freedom that has ever come easy. So make it easy on yourself. Otherwise, no one's going to give you that freedom.
Youlendree Appasamy: Yeah, that's true.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Yeah. It's hard navigating Africa and Uganda as a queer woman. So every day, wake up ready to fight, and I'm tired of living in a constant state of rage. I'm tired of waking up every day and I'm just angry and I'm so burnt out and I'm so tired. No. Where is the pleasure? Where is the happiness in all this, right? I choose to look at the bright side.
Kerubo Onsoti: Thank you.
Youlendree Appasamy: Yeah, thank you for sharing that with us. Thank you for sharing your time now with us. So I think as we are wrapping up today's podcast, if there is anything else you'd like to say, you'd like to add, people you'd like to shout out, here's your time and space. If there's anything we haven't covered.
Sandra Kwikiriza: I probably the DTI conveners, it would be nice to have more of these spaces, whether in person or virtual. I think the conversations that we've started here could be expounded on. I would love to hear more about team leads’ experiences. I would love to hear more about Anasuya's presentations, I want to know more about what Whose Knowledge? is doing. So if there's a way we could keep the conversation going. Shout-outs, I'm not sure. I guess just thanks to the amazing team at HER Internet for all the support they do. We received really great feedback in this space, and for me, that's very wholesome because I'm not HER Internet. It's an entire group of people behind me who are doing these things and making the work happen. So yeah, just want to shout out to them and great work.
Youlendree Appasamy: Okay. Well, thank you everybody. I think we've come to the end of our podcast today.
Kerubo Onsoti: Yes, we have.
Youlendree Appasamy:
Okay, Len, signing out.
Kerubo Onsoti: Bye.
Sandra Kwikiriza: Bye.
Kerubo Onsoti: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us for the Femininja Podcast. We really believe and trust that you have enjoyed our conversations and they have pricked some thinking, some kind of wanting to find out more about feminism, about patriarchy, and what is the role for each one of us in detonating patriarchy and proudly and boldly claiming ourselves as feminists. So stay tuned, keep following us and engage with us on FEMNET website, www.femnet.org. Thank you!
Youlendree Appasamy: You can follow Whose Knowledge? on Twitter, at @whoseknowledge.
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