# English rendering of PM's conversation with entrepreneur, Nikhil Kamath

English rendering of PM's conversation with entrepreneur, Nikhil Kamath
Posted On: 10 JAN 2025 9:37PM by PIB Delhi
PM – How many podcast posts have you done so far?
Nikhil Kamath - 25 sir.
Prime Ministers – 25
Nikhil Kamath – Yes, but we do it only once a month!
PM- Okay.
Nikhil Kamath – I do a podcast one day every month and nothing for the rest of the month.
Prime Minister – Look, whoever has to do it with whom, give him/her one month's time and make him/her comfortable.
Nikhil Kamath - Correct Sir, most of the podcasts that we have done are in depth ... is about entrepreneurship. Our audience is completely that category of 15-40, who want to start entrepreneurship for the first time, so we do an episode on Artificial Intelligence, an episode on Meta, we do very specific topics about pharmaceutical things and we have just started one more thing called People, in which we have talked to some people like Bill Gates, but again very specific to the industry they belong to.
Prime Minister – Firstly, this is my first time in podcast and hence this world is completely new for me too.
Nikhil Kamath – So sir please forgive me if my Hindi is not very good, I am a South Indian, I grew up mostly in Bangalore and my mother’s city is Mysore so most of the people there speak Kannada and my father was from near Mangaluru, I learned Hindi in school, but not very good in terms of fluency, and people say that most of the communication is non verbal, which people understand by looking at each other! So I think we should be fine.
Prime Minister – Look, I am also not a Hindi speaker, it will be like this for both of us.
Nikhil Kamath – And this podcast of ours is not a traditional interview. I am not a journalist. We mostly talk to people who are trying to do entrepreneurship for the first time. So we tell them what is required to become an entrepreneur in the industry, where will they get funding for the first time, where will they get online material to learn. So we are coming from that zone and along the way today we will try to draw parallel between politics and entrepreneurship. Because I feel that there are many such similarities between these two, which no one has talked about till date. So we will take that direction and move forward. So if you want to ask some questions yourself in this podcast, I do not have any good answers. But you can ask. The first thing I would like to talk about in this podcast is the first part of your life. Pre PM, pre CM, where were you born, what did you do in the first 10 years. If you can throw some light on the first era of your life.
Prime Minister – Well, everyone knows that I was born in Gujarat, in Mehsana district of North Gujarat. Vadnagar is a small town there. When we were small, the population was probably only 15000, I remember this roughly. I am from that place. But then, just like everyone has their own village, my village was also one such village. My village was a kind of [w:Gaekwad State|]]. So Gaekwad State had a specialty. Every village was very keen on education. There used to be a pond, a post office, a library, four or five such things, that is, if it is a village of Gaekwad State, then this would definitely be there, this was their arrangement, so I studied in the primary school of Gaekwad State, so I stayed there in my childhood. There was a pond so I learned to swim there. I used to wash the clothes of everyone in my family, so due to this I used to get permission to go to the pond. Later there was a Bhagwat Acharya Narayan Acharya High School, BNA School. That too was charitable in a way, it was not like the state of education today. So I did my schooling there. At that time it was not 10+2, it was 11th grade. I had read somewhere that the Chinese philosopher Xuanzang had lived in my village, so a film was to be made on him, so at that time I had written a letter to the embassy or someone there that brother I have read somewhere that you are making a film on Xuanzang, so he lived in my village and I tried to mention him somewhere by doing this. That was many years ago.
Before that, I had a very passionate brother Dave in my village. He was a Congress leader, had a little socialist ideology too, and was originally from Saurashtra and had settled in my village. He used to tell us school children that wherever you go, if you find any stone on which something is written or engraved, then collect that stone and put it in this corner of the school. Gradually, it became a big pile, then I understood that his intention was that this is a very ancient village, every stone here has some story or the other. Collect it, whenever someone comes, he will do it. Maybe it was an imagination. So my attention also went towards that. When I became the Prime Minister in 2014, naturally the world leaders make courtesy calls, so Chinese President Xi, I got a call from him, best wishes, etc. etc., then he himself said that I want to come to India. I said you are most welcome, you must definitely come, then he said but I want to go to Gujarat. I said that is even better. So he said that I want to go to your village Vadnagar. I said what's the matter, you have made the program till your place. He said do you know why, I didn't know, then he said that there is a special bond between you and me. I asked what, Xuanzang who was a Chinese philosopher lived in your village for the longest time, but when he came back to China, he stayed in my village. So he said that there is this connection between both of us.
Nikhil Kamath – And if you remember more things about your childhood, when you were young, were you a good student, what were your interests at that time.
Prime Minister – I was a very ordinary student, nobody would notice me in any way, but I had a teacher named Veljibhai Chaudhary, he used to care a lot about me, so one day he went to meet my father. He was telling my father that he has so much talent, but he does not concentrate, he keeps doing different things, he said that he grasps everything so quickly but then gets lost in his own world, so Veljibhai had a lot of expectations from me, so my teachers loved me a lot, but I had to study more, if there was an element of competition in it, then I used to run away from it. I was not interested in it, just pass the exam, get out, it was like that, but I used to do a lot of other activities. If there was anything new, it was my nature to grasp it immediately.
Nikhil Kamath – Sir, do you have any childhood friends with whom you still remain in touch?
Prime Minister – It is like my case is a little strange, I left home at a very young age, leaving home means I left everything, I was not in touch with anyone, so there was a huge gap, so I had no contact, I did not have any dealings with anyone and my life was also that of an unknown wandering person, so who would ask about me. So my life was not like this, but when I became the CM, some desires arose in my mind. One desire that arose was that I will call all my old friends from class to the CM House. My psychology behind it was that I did not want any of my people to feel that I have become someone great. I am the same person who left the village years ago, I have not changed, I wanted to live that moment and the way to live it was to sit with those friends. But I could not recognize him even by his face because there was a huge gap between us. His hair had turned grey, the children had grown up. But I called everyone. Probably 30-35 people had gathered and we had a big dinner, chatted, refreshed old childhood memories. But I did not enjoy it much. I did not enjoy it because I was looking for a friend, but he saw me as the Chief Minister. So that gap was not bridged and probably there was no one left in my life to call me 'tu'. Such was the situation. Everyone is still in touch but they look at me with great respect. One of them was my teacher Ras Bihari Manihar. He passed away some time ago and he was around 93-94. He would always write letters to me and he would write 'tu' in them. The rest, when I became the CM, my only wish was to call my school friends.
The second wish of mine, which might be strange for the people of India, was that I wanted to honour all my teachers publicly. So, I searched for all those who taught me since my childhood and who were my teachers till schooling, and after becoming the CM, I honoured them publicly. Our Governor, Sharmaji, also came to that programme and all the eminent people of Gujarat were present in that programme and I had a message in my mind that whatever I am, they have contributed in some way or the other in making me. Some of them must have been my teachers from Bal Mandir, the oldest teacher was 93 years old, I had called about 30-32 teachers and I honoured them all publicly and those were very good moments of my life. Then one day I did it in my life was to invite my extended family, my brothers, their children, sisters, their children, whoever my family members were, because I didn't even recognise them because I had left them. But one day I called everyone to my CM House. I introduced all the family members, whose son is this, who is married where, because I had no relations with them. This is the third thing I did. Fourthly, when I was in the Sangh. So in the beginning, in the families where I used to get food, I used to go to eat food, there were many families who fed me, because throughout my life I did not have my own food arrangement, I used to eat like this. So I invited all of them, so if you ask me if I did some things on my own will, it has been 25 years for me, then I did these four things. I invited my school friends, I invited those at whose house I used to eat food, I invited people from my own family, and I invited my teachers.
Nikhil Kamath - You might not remember that a few years back you had come to Bangalore and were meeting people from your startup and of your last meeting the night you met us and they told us that you have 15 minutes along with them but you sat for an hour, and if you remember even then I was only asking you questions! I think it is easier to ask questions than give answers. And I was also telling you something that what is happening is probably not good, or that is happening is probably not good and you were listening. If you have to think that there is some category of people and some age of people in society with whom your connection is very strong, if you could define an age group then which would that be.
Prime Minister – So, it was said to me by and large that if you want to find Narendra Bhai, where will you look for him? He would be standing amidst 15-20 youngsters laughing and laughing. So that was also my image, so probably today I do not feel distance from any area or any age group. As much as the word connect is concerned, maybe I may not have the perfect answer, but I do not feel distance.
Nikhil Kamath – Like you were saying that you don’t like competition, people like Jiddu Krishnamurthy, a lot of very evolved thinkers, say that competition is not good. Somebody coming from that school of thought into politics where there is a lot of competition, how can they bring that same ideology into politics.
Prime Minister – See, if there is no competition in childhood, it will be laziness. There will be no big philosophy or anything. I will behave in the same irresponsible way as children do. I don’t believe that any philosophy guided me. I think that it is okay, I will get more marks, I will get more marks, why should I worry more about myself. Secondly, I was like a monkey trader, I used to do whatever came to hand at the time, so if there is any such competition, I will enter it, if there is a drama competition, I will enter it. That is, I used to do these things naturally and I had a teacher named Mr. Parmar at my place, means that he was a PT teacher, perhaps the physical training teacher. So there was a small arena in a mansion at my place, so I got so inspired by him that I used to go there regularly, I used to learn [[w:Mallakhamb \]] at that time. I used to learn wrestling. Wrestling and Mallakhamb, which is a huge wooden pillar, especially in Maharashtra, is an excellent exercise for building a strong body. It is a kind of yoga on a pillar, so I used to go to them at 5:00 in the morning and they used to help me a bit. But I did not become a player, okay, I did it for some time and then left, it was like that.
Nikhil Kamath – Are there any such things which can be considered as talent for a politician in politics. Like in entrepreneurship, when someone is starting a company, three or four talents are inherently required for it like someone who is good at marketing, someone who is good at sales, someone who is good at technology and develops products. If a youth today wants to become a politician, then is there any such talent in him which you can test and this is what he should have.
Prime Minister – These are two different things, becoming a politician is one part and being successful in politics is another thing, so in two different ways. So one is to enter politics, the other is to be successful, I believe that for that you need dedication, commitment, you should be a partner of the people in their joys and sorrows, you should actually be a good team player. If you say that I am a great warrior and I will control everyone, everyone will obey me, then it is possible that his politics will work, he may win the election but there is no guarantee that he will become a successful politician. And look, in the country, I sometimes think, it is possible that what I think can also create controversy, when the freedom movement started, people from all sections of the society joined it, but not everyone came into politics, some people later dedicated their lives to education, some dedicated to Khadi, some dedicated to adult education, some got involved in such creative works for the welfare of the tribals. But the freedom movement was a movement inspired by patriotism, everyone had a passion that I will do whatever I can to free India. After independence, a lot of them came into politics and initially, after politics, all the stalwart leaders in our country were leaders who emerged from the freedom struggle. So their thinking, their maturity, its form is different, completely different, whatever we hear about their behavior, there is a very deep sense of dedication towards the society and hence my opinion is that good people should keep coming into politics and they should come with a mission, not with ambition. If you have come with a mission, then you will get a place somewhere, mission should be above ambition, then you will have the capability.
Now, when you look at the definition of a leader of today's era, Mahatma Gandhi does not fit in it. Personality wise, he was thin and had almost no oratory skills, so if we look at it from that perspective, he could not have become a leader. So what was the reason? His deeds used to speak and this power made the whole country stand behind this person and that is why nowadays, the form of a politician is seen in the big professional category, he should be able to give flowery speeches, this works for a few days, people get applause, but ultimately it is deeds who does the work. Secondly, my opinion is that communication is more important than speech and oratory. How do you communicate? You see Mahatma Gandhi used to hold a stick in his hand which was taller than himself, but he used to advocate non-violence, it was a big contrast, but he used to communicate. Mahatma Gandhi never wore a cap but the whole world wore Gandhi cap. He had the power of communication. Mahatma Gandhi had a political field, he was a politician but not a ruler. He did not contest elections, he was not in power but the place that was built after his death was named Raj Ghat.
Nikhil Kamath – And Sir, what you have just said, the point of today's entire conversation for us is that we want to tell young people to think about politics as entrepreneurship and what I am hoping is at the end of this. 10,000 smart young Indians get motivated by your life, get inspired to try and be a politician in India.
Prime Minister – I had said from the Red Fort that the country needs one lakh such youth who come into politics and I believe that if the aim is to take, get and become, then its lifespan is not very long. The first training that an entrepreneur gets is to grow, here the first training is to devote oneself, to give whatever one has, how can I make my company or my profession number one, here it is Nation First, this is a huge difference and the society also accepts only those people who think Nation First and this political life is not easy, those who believe that it is not so, it is in the fate of some people, they do not have to do anything, they keep getting it, but it is possible that there are some reasons, I do not want to go into that, but I know that we had a worker named Ashok Bhatt, he used to live in a small house till the end of his life, he was a minister many times, he did not have his own car etc. and earlier there were no mobile phones, there were landlines. You call him at 3:00 in the night, he would pick up the phone after half a ring and you would tell him that brother, look, at that time I was not in politics but there were a lot of accidents on the Ahmedabad Rajkot highway, there is a place called Bagodra, so two days a week I used to get calls saying brother a big accident has happened here, so I used to call Ashok Bhatt and he would say okay, he would leave after a while, he himself did not have a vehicle or anything, he would catch a lift, he would catch lift in a truck, he lived his entire life like this.
Nikhil Kamath – Are you also saying that no youth should think that he wants to become a politician, but he should come with the thought that what will he do after becoming a politician.
Prime Minister – It is like that most of the people do not want to become politicians, they say I want to become MLA, I want to become corporator, I want to become MP, that is a different category. It is not necessary to contest elections to enter politics, it is a process of democracy, if you get a chance, contest, the work is to win the hearts of the common people, elections are won later and to win the hearts of the common people, one has to live life among them, one has to connect life with them and such people are there even today in the country.
Nikhil Kamath – If you talk about today's politicians who are young, do you see that there is a lot of potential in anybody?
Prime Minister - There are a lot of people, a lot of people and they put in all their effort, work hard day and night, work in mission mode.
Nikhil Kamath – One man in your mind.
Prime Minister - If I say the names, it will cause injustice to many, so it is my responsibility that I do not do injustice to anyone, see, there are many names in front of me, many faces, I know the details of many people.
Nikhil Kamath – When you were saying earlier about being with people, feeling for them, that empathy, sympathy, were there any such things in your childhood which made you like that.
Prime Minister- Meaning.
Nikhil Kamath – I mean like you were saying that when you want to become a politician then it's not about you, you are secondary, the people for whom you are a politician become your first priority. There was something in your childhood like this?
Prime Minister - It is true that I have not made my life, circumstances have made it. I do not want to go into the depth of the life I have lived since childhood, because my childhood has been different. But that life teaches me a lot, and perhaps that was my biggest university in a way. Trouble is a university for me which teaches me, and it is possible that I have learnt to love trouble, which has taught me a lot. I come from a state where I have seen mothers and sisters carrying pots on their heads and walking two to three kilometres to fetch water. Then I feel that after 75 years of independence, can I provide water, so this activity of mine is born out of those feelings. There must have been schemes before as well, I do not claim schemes, people must have seen dreams before as well, but I sacrifice myself for those dreams. No matter whose dream it is, but if that dream is right, then it is my job to sacrifice myself so that something comes out for the country. When I became the Chief Minister, I had given a speech and I had spontaneously said that I will not leave any stone unturned in working hard, secondly I will not do anything for myself, and thirdly I am a human being, I can make mistakes but I will not do wrong with bad intentions and I have made these the mantras of my life. Mistakes will happen, I will also make mistakes, I am also a human being, I am not a god. If you are a human being, then mistakes happen, I will not do wrong with bad intentions, this has always been my belief.
Nikhil Kamath – Do you think that your belief system which is inside you, what is most important to you, those beliefs which you thought 20 years ago, if that changes today, is it a good thing or a bad thing.
Prime Minister- Like what?
Nikhil Kamath - For example, imagine that today I am 38 years old, when I was probably 20 years old, I used to think that capitalism is the right way of the world and now that I have turned 38, maybe I want to change my mind upon, change my mind about it what people hold you to what you said 20 years ago but I feel like it is just evolution and this is transition with more data, what people used to think earlier changes in their minds, I still believe in capitalism, I am giving this example just like that, but did you have any such beliefs which you believed in 10 or 20 years ago and you do not believe in that today.
Prime Minister- There are two things, one is there are some people who keep on changing the color like a passing vehicle, I am not that person. I have grown up with one thought and if my ideology has to be expressed in very few words then it is Nation First. If my tagline is Nation First, then whatever fits in it, then that does not bind me in the shackles of ideology, does not bind me in the shackles of traditions, if it is necessary to take me forward then I do it. If I have to leave old things then I am ready to leave them, I am ready to accept new things, but the yardstick is Nation First. My scale is one, I do not change the scale.
Nikhil Kamath – If I take it a little further, is it the ideology of the politician due to which he gets followers, is it the ideology of the society which the politician copies and due to which he gets followers.
Prime Minister - Idealism is more important than ideology. I am not saying that politics can exist without ideology, but idealism is very much needed. For example, what was the ideology before independence, there was a movement for freedom. Freedom was the only ideology, Gandhiji's path was different, ideology was freedom. Savarkar's path was different.
Nikhil Kamath - People say that to become a politician one needs thick skin. How does one develop this? People will troll, say bad things about you in public , make up stories about you. This is a new experience for a normal person. How can one learn this?
Prime Minister- Politics needs sensitive people. We need people who feel happy if something good happens to someone. The second issue is allegations and counter-allegations. In a democracy, you should accept that there will be allegations against you, there will be many kinds of allegations, but if you are right, you have not done anything wrong, then you will never face any problem.
Nikhil Kamath - And Sir, you have been a CM in pre-social media politics and you are a PM in post-social media politics. During this time, you have seen how politics has changed, both the earlier times and today's time when social media was not that important and today when it has become very important. If you can give some advice about this to a youth who wants to become a politician, how to use it.
Prime Minister- So sometimes people ask me, when I meet small children, they ask me this question, I also like chatting with them, sometimes children of 8th-9th grade come to meet me, they say Sir, sometimes a child asks me how do you feel when you see yourself on TV, some children come and ask me that you get abused so much day and night, how do you feel, then I tell them a joke, I say that I am an Ahmedabadi and our Ahmedabadi people have a distinct identity, they have many popular jokes. I said an Ahmedabadi was going on a scooter and he collided with someone, the person in front got angry and an argument started, he started abusing. This Ahmedabadi kept standing with his scooter, other person kept abusing, meanwhile someone came and said friend what kind of a person are you, he is abusing and you are just standing like this. Then he said that the other person who is giving abuses is not taking anything, this is typical Ahmedabadi. So I also made up my mind that okay brother he is abusing, he will give whatever he has, whatever I have I will give. But you should be on the ground of truth, there should not be any sin in your heart.
If you, otherwise please tell me, you are not in politics, you work in an office, does this not happen in that office ? In a big family too, if there is some tension between two brothers, does it happen or not, then this happens in every sphere of life, in more or less, but it does happen and hence, we should not think of having a thick skin on the basis of that. One should be extremely sensitive, without sensitivity in public life, you cannot do good to people. And I believe that social media is a great power of democracy. Earlier, only a few people used to inform you, you used to believe that to be the truth, even then you were trapped. You did not have the time to verify that if someone said that 1 lakh people died, then you used to believe that 100,000 people died. Today you have an alternate, you can verify that if this news has come, then from where has it come? Everything is available in your mobile phone. Pay a little attention, you can reach the truth very easily and that is why the work of strengthening democracy can be done through social media. Those who are doing something wrong today due to distortions. Even in such normal conditions in the society, I remember when I used to do organisational work, no matter what, we people of Jansangh, I was not in politics at that time, used to get abused even if we did nothing. Even when there was a famine, politicians were abused. So the same thing used to happen in those times, but when it used to be print media, it had that much power. Today, w:social media was there a little bit earlier also, it is there even today, but today you have a very big canvas available to find the truth, many alternate paths are open and today's youth mostly verifies these things.
See, when I meet today's children, I am surprised that they show a lot of interest in space. The success of [[w:Chandrayaan|}] has created a new spirit in the youth of my country. I meet many children who know about the timetable of Gaganyaan. I have seen the power of social media, they follow what is happening with Gaganyaan, what is happening with the astronauts, whose training is going on where, Children of 8th and 9th class know about it. This means that social media is becoming a very big power for the new generation and I consider it useful. When I had just entered the political field, I was very young, so there was no question of me getting abused, but I used to hear nonsense things, so I used to think why do people say this, why do they do this, then gradually I understood that this field is such, you have to live in it.
Nikhil Kamath- Nowadays a lot of kids are saying that they have anxiety, I also have it, anxiety presents itself in my life like I am sitting and talking with you I feel nervous I feel anxious I feel that I don't know what I will say, how will you feel and you know it's a tough conversation for me to have. A lot of kids are talking about anxiety, it comes in your life too and when it came in your childhood what did you do with it.
Prime Minister- It must be there, it is not that God has kept some doors closed for me. Whatever He gives to everyone, He must have given it to me too. See, everyone has different abilities and different styles to manage these things.
Nikhil Kamath- If I want to learn this from you, how do I want to do it.
Prime Minister- It is very difficult to say anything in the form of a thesis. But I am in such a position that I have to stay away from my emotions and my natural human tendency, I have to stay above all these. Like the 2002 Gujarat elections were the biggest test of my life, in my life I have had many opportunities to win elections, even when I fought and when I made others fight. So in my life I have never watched TV, the result is not coming, nothing. At 11-12 pm, the sound of drums started coming outside the CM bungalow below my house and I told people not to give me any information till 12:00 pm. Then our operator sent a letter saying that Sir, you are leading with a two-third majority. So I do not believe that nothing would have happened inside me, but I had some thought that overpowered it, so call it restlessness, call it anxiety, it became different. Similarly, there were bomb blasts at five places in my area, you can imagine what the situation would be like as a Chief Minister. So I said that I want to go to the police control room, but my security people refused saying that sir, we don't know what is lying where and where are you going. I said whatever happens I will go, they were very worried, finally I came and sat in the car, then they left. I said first I will go to the hospital, no, he said sir bombs are exploding in the hospital too. I said whatever happens I will go. So you can say that there will be restlessness and anxiety inside me, but my way was that I used to get absorbed in my mission, so I experience it in a different form, maybe, I get a sense of responsibility in it.
I became an MLA for the first time in my life on 24 February 2002. I went to the Assembly for the first time on 27 February. I was an MLA for three days and suddenly news of a big incident in Godhra started coming, a train was on fire. Gradually the news came, so I said with a very natural restlessness, whatever I said, because I was worried. I was in the House, as soon as I came out, I said that brother I want to go to Godhra, so I said we will go to Baroda from here, we will take a helicopter from Baroda, then they said they don't have a helicopter, so I said look for someone else's helicopter, maybe ONGC had one, it was a single engine, so they refused saying they cannot take a VIP, I said I am not a VIP. I am a common man, when I will go, we had a big fight, I said I will give in writing that whatever happens is my responsibility, I will go by single engine helicopter and I reached Godhra, now that painful scene, so many dead bodies, you can imagine , I am also a human being, I also went through everything that was to happen but I knew that I am sitting on such a post that I have to keep my emotions, my natural tendency of humans out of all this, I have to stay above everything and I tried to handle myself by doing whatever I can. But when I talk to students at Pariksha pe charcha”, I understand their lesson, that brother, remove from your mind that you are going to do something special, you are doing a part of your routine activity, go like this. Do not try to wear special new clothes that day.
Nikhil Kamath- Do you think like this that what will be the worst case, worst case means what is the worst thing that can happen, do you think like that.
Prime Minister- No, I have never thought of life or death. See, I think it might be for those who live life by keeping a record, so I might not be able to answer this. Because in reality, I have never reached here today, I never set out to reach there. That is why I do not know anything. When I became the CM, I was surprised how I became the CM. So this was not the path of my life, I have got a responsibility, so I am fulfilling it, my aim is to do it well, but it is not like I set out for this work. That is why I do not get to do those calculations. I am probably an exception to what happens in normal life because my background is such that I can never think like this. Someone once asked me, my background is such that if I had become a primary school teacher, my mother would have sold jaggery in the neighborhood, fed jaggery to everyone that my son became a teacher. So, I had that background and that is why I had never had such dreams, so what will happen if this does not happen, all these things do not come to my mind much.
Nikhil Kamath - Like you said earlier today that we learn more from failure than from success, would you like to talk about some such failures?
Prime Minister - The day Chandrayaan-2 was to be launched, many people told me that Sir, I should not go. I asked why, he said Sir, this is uncertain, every country in the world fails, it happens after trying it four or six times, if you go and something happens then I said what is it, am I not responsible for getting disgraced. I went and what happened was that during the Chandrayaan launch we fell apart at the last second. All the people sitting outside were worried, nobody had the courage to tell the Prime Minister, but as much as I understand technology, I could see that yes, something seems wrong, it is not working, finally the most senior person came and told me. I said don't worry, I greeted everyone by saying Namaste. I had a programme at 2:00 in the night. I went to the guest house but I could not sleep. I called everyone again after about half an hour and said, look if these people are not tired then I want to meet them at 7:00 in the morning before leaving, because the country had faced a huge setback but I was not one of those who spend their life crying over the setback. I said I went in the morning and I told all the scientists if there is any failure then the responsibility is mine, I tried, do not be disappointed and I instilled as much confidence in them as I could and Chandrayaan-3 became successful.
Nikhil Kamath- Any learning from this incident that you can use today, any learning from this incident that you can use in politics today.
Prime Minister - Look, taking risks in politics requires a lot of preparation. Taking risks every moment is like asking one lakh youth to come. And I want to give my time to them for what they want and I think that if the country gets such youth, they will fulfill the dream I have in my mind for 2047. I am not calling them to work for me, I am asking them to work for the country.
Nikhil Kamath- Called into politics.
PM- But they should not have the fear of the unknown, so I want to stand with them, don't worry, come on friends and don't come with the intention of getting into any dispute. Politics is very important in democracy, give it respect, the more respect politics gets, the more political purity will happen. We consider it useless, dirty, if it is dirty, then it will remain dirty, we should give it respect and good people should come, so this is my effort.
Nikhil Kamath- This is one thing that I am saying here today that youngsters should join politics. When I talk about myself, there are two things. The first thing is that I like my job. I like investing in companies and I have been doing the stock market for a long time since 20 years and I really love and enjoy my job. And the second thing is that as somebody who grew up in a South Indian middle class family, I was told since childhood that the options before me were doctor, engineer or chartered accountant. Now I can probably add a startup to it. But for all of us, politics is a dirty place. It has become so ingrained in our psyche that it is very difficult to change it. And if I were to be a little more honest about it, after becoming a politician, the one thing that I want to change, I don’t even know what that thing is. So, what would you say to people like us?
Prime Minister - I see it in a different way, the analysis you did is incomplete. It is incomplete because if you were what you were saying, you would not be here today. Every minute of yours is a game of money, leaving all that aside, you are spending your mind with me in the cold of Delhi, which means that you are connected to democratic politics. Politics does not mean elections, politics does not mean w:victory or defeat, politics does not mean power. That is one aspect of it, how many elected representatives will be there in the country. Suppose there will be 10000 MLAs. Could be 1000 or 2000,but not everyone here, but in politics everyone is needed. Secondly, if you are in policy making, then you can bring about a very big change, you can bring about change by doing good things in your small company, but if your personality is in the place of a policy maker, in politics, then you can bring about that change in the entire country. So the biggest advantage in governance is that you can make policies, you can change situations by executing policies and if you are in the right direction and do it with honesty, then you see results. Now, like I tell you, every government in our country has been working for the tribals, but our President Draupadi Murmu ji comes from that section of the society, so whenever I used to meet her, she used to get very emotional. Even in the tribal society, there is no one to reach the most backward people and there are small groups scattered. She told me many times that something has to be done. I asked her to guide me, so under her guidance I made a scheme called PM Jan Man Yojana. Right now these people are at most 25 lakh people and that too in 250 places. It is not useful for politicians because they do not have to get votes, there is no win or loss. But it is very big for life. Draupadi ji knew that community, she requested me and I became PM, and today when I hear that Sir, this was not there earlier, now this has happened, that was not there and now it has happened, then I get a great satisfaction that what can be the use of a place, I got an opportunity to worship that which no one asked about. So, this is an example of how big a change can be brought about in politics if you take some good decisions at the right time.
Nikhil Kamath – And Sir I am not a journalist nor am I a political expert, if I talk about policies then I will sound like an idiot for this, there are probably many more experienced people but if I go back to failure can you tell us more and what did you learn from them, from failures it could be in childhood also, during the time of CM in the last 10 years.
Prime Minister- Well, I have had many setbacks. When I was young, I was probably studying in a primary school, I don't remember exactly, and maybe a Sainik School was started in our state. I had a habit of reading newspapers, so reading newspapers meant reading advertisements as well, so there was a library in my village, I used to go to the library, so I read about the Sainik School, then maybe at that time I sent a money order of one rupee and ordered all that, it was all in such a big English, I didn't know anything, so there was a Rashbihari Maniyar who was the principal of a high school, but he lived about 300-400 meters from my house, so I used to see his house while going and in my childhood he seemed very big to me, so one day I reached his house, I said I don't understand this, if someone explains it to me, now he was very kind. So he said that you don't worry son, I will take care of you. So he saw the whole thing and told me see this is a Sainik School, there is an interview, exam, one has to pass the exam etc. Later I told my father, and he said no no we don't have money, we don't want to go anywhere, stay in our village only, now it came to my mind that a Sainik School is a very big thing for the country, I could not do it, so I think that perhaps that was the first setback I got that I cannot even do this, i.e. to see each and every thing like this in life. I remember I had a strong desire to lead the life of a saint, but I could not do it and my first attempt was to associate myself with the Ramakrishna Mission. Swami Atmasthanand ji who lived for 100 years and recently passed away, has said a lot for me, because I stayed with him but there were some rules of Ramakrishna Mission, I did not meet that qualification and hence I did not fit in, so I was rejected, but I did not get disappointed, my dream remained unfulfilled, but I did not get disappointed, I had setbacks in my life, I kept wandering like this, then kept searching for some saints and mahants, I did not get any success there as well, in a way I can say that I came back, perhaps destiny must have thought something like this and took me on this path, so such setbacks are bound to come in life.
Nikhil Kamath - And these setbacks have played an important part in shaping the personality you have today and what you have learnt from them.
Prime Minister - Let me tell you that when I used to work in RSS, at that time RSS people bought a brand new old jeep, so I knew driving, that is, I had learnt driving afresh, now I was travelling in the tribal belt with one of our RSS officials, so we were coming back from Ukai Dam, there was a steep slope, so I thought that I will save petrol, so I switched off the vehicle and if I go down, the vehicle will skid, I did not know how this will cause me trouble, the vehicle went out of control, even when I applied brakes, there was trouble because it picked up a high speed suddenly, the machine was switched off, so there was no control, I was saved but even the people sitting next to me did not know that I had committed such a sin, but later I learnt that brother stop this game, so we learn from every mistake, so I absolutely believe that the more life improves, it happens through experiences and it has been my good fortune that I have not lived my life in a comfort zone, I have always been outside the comfort zone and when I was outside the comfort zone, I realized that I had to figure out how to do it, how to live.
Nikhil Kamath- Is there any specific reason why even today you think that you do not have to remain in the comfort zone?
Prime Minister: I guess that is what I feel about being unfit for comfort.
Nikhil Kamath- But have you ever thought about why? Why do you think you are unfit for comfort?
Prime Minister- The life that I have lived, therefore, things are very big for me. Even small things give satisfaction to my mind because the mind of a person gets prepared from his childhood, by and large, he feels that he is satisfied. By and large, he feels that he is satisfied.
Nikhil Kamath- Can you also feel that comfort comes in the way of achieving your end goal.
Prime Minister- Mostly, I believe that many people fail in life because they get used to their comfort zone. Even a big industrialist, if he does not take risks, does not come out of his comfort zone, the levels of his comfort zone will be different, then he will be finished in that period of time. He will have to come out. And anyone who wants to progress in any field of life, should not get used to his comfort zone. His mindset of taking risks is always his driving force.
Nikhil Kamath- And this is the same thing in entrepreneurship as well, the one who can take more risk does better… Sir, is your risk taking ability increasing with time in your life?
Prime Minister- I feel that my risk taking capacity has not been fully utilized yet, it is very less. My risk taking capacity is probably many times more, the reason for this is that I do not care. I have never thought about myself and the one who does not think for himself has an unlimited risk taking capacity, such is my case.
Nikhil Kamath- If you are in today's day.
Prime Minister - Today I am not this, tomorrow I will not be this, then what will happen to me, I have nothing to do with it.
Nikhil Kamath – If today in your day, do not think about anything, zero fear, not afraid of anything and take a decision which you are not taking otherwise because of structure construct government all of the that what is that one thing.
Prime Minister- Perhaps my other forms have now ended and it has become like one life one vision. That is why, but there is one thing that I used to do earlier which sometimes I still feel like doing. I used to have a program and I had named it I go to meet myself, I go to meet myself, that is, sometimes we don't meet ourselves, we meet the world, we don't have time to meet ourselves. So what I used to do was, I used to take out some time in a year and set out for three-four days with whatever I needed and go and live at a place where there were no people, where water was available, I used to look for such a place somewhere in the jungles, at that time there were no mobile phones etc., there was no question of newspapers etc., so that life was a different joy for me, I miss it sometimes.
Nikhil Kamath- And during that time, when you were alone with yourself, did you learn something about yourself? As many people say in philosophy, the most important interesting question in life is why am I, how am I, did you learn something about yourself in that time as to why you are like this?
Prime Minister- Getting lost in oneself is just one thing. Let me give you an example of what happened. It must have been the 80s, I decided that I would live in the desert, so I started, but I kept wandering in the desert, but I saw a light but I was unable to reach it, then I met someone on a camel, he said brother what are you doing here, I said brother I want to go inside the desert, he said do this, come with me now, the light that is visible ahead is the last village, I will drop you there, stay there for the night and in the morning if someone meets you from there, then he took me. There was a Muslim gentleman called Gulbek, he took me to his place. Now that small village Dhordo which is the last village of India on the border of Pakistan, and there are 20-25 houses and all Muslim families, hospitality is there in our country, their brothers and children invited me to come but I said no I have to go, then they told me that I cannot go in the desert at night as the temperature will be minus right now. How will you stay there, just sleep here tonight, we will show you in the morning. Anyway, I stayed at his house at night, he fed me, I said brother I want to live alone, I don't need anything, he said you cannot live alone, we have a small hut here, you stay there and you can go to the Rann that day and come back at night, I went there, it was White Rann and imagine that one scene outside touched my heart so much, the things that I had experienced in my Himalayan life, living life among the snow rocks, I was experiencing the same scene here and I used to get a spiritual feeling. But that scene which was in my mind, when I became the Chief Minister, I made a big event of Rann Utsav and today it has become a very big destination for tourism and now it has received the number one award in the world for the globally best tourist village.
Nikhil Kamath- Imagine that tomorrow such an event happens in your life which gives you the most happiness, then who will your first call go to?
Prime Minister- It is like this that when I went to hoist the tricolor flag in Srinagar's Lal Chowk, our procession was attacked near Bhagwara in Punjab, bullets were fired, many people were killed, five or six people were injured, so there was tension in the whole country about what would happen if we went to Srinagar Lal Chowk, it was very difficult to hoist the tricolor flag, the tricolor flag was burnt in Lal Chowk. After hoisting the tricolor flag, we came to Jammu, my first call from Jammu was to my mother, it was a happy moment for me and the other thought was in my mind that mother must be worried that bullets have been fired and where has he gone, so I remember I made the first call to my mother, today I understand the importance of that call, I have never felt that anywhere else.
Nikhil Kamath - To lose a parent, like you lost a parent recently, I lost my dad recently, you even wrote a letter to me, thank you very kind. What is the first thing that comes to your mind, like if I give my example, when I lost my dad the first thought in my mind was guilt that why did I not do this, why did I not go and spend more time with him, why did I pick maybe work, maybe this, that and the other over him… when this event happened in your life, what did you think.
Prime Minister- It is like that, it is not there in my life, because I had left home in childhood, so the people at home also accepted that this is not ours. I also accepted that I am not for the home. So my life remained like that. Therefore, there was no reason for anyone to feel that kind of attachment, but when our mother turned 100 , I went to touch mother's feet. My mother was not educated, she had not read anything that is, she did not have the knowledge of letters, so while leaving I said that mother, I have to leave, my work is something for me, I was surprised, my mother said two sentences, very big, that is, one who has never seen the door of a school, that mother said “work with intelligence, live life with purity”. Now this sentence coming out of her mouth was big for me, that is, in a way it was a very big treasure, work with intelligence, she was saying in Gujarati, but what she meant was work with intelligence, live life with purity. So I used to think that what all has God not given to this mother, what specialities she might have, then sometimes I feel that if I ever lived with her then I could have found out a lot of such things, I could have known them, so I feel the lack that my such interactions happened very little, because I used to go to her once or twice a year, well mother never fell sick, and even then I used to go to her, she used to tell me, that you must have some work, go quickly, this was her nature.
Nikhil Kamath: So sir, I am coming back to politics. First you said that politics is not dirty, history tells us that politicians probably make politics dirty and this is still the place for ideologistic people if they want to change, change the ecosystem… The second question is about money in politics, if we say to the youth of the country that we join politics, the second problem that comes to their mind is that a lot of money is needed for this and we don't have it, would you like to say something about it in my life, in the startup industry where I work, when we get an idea, we take money from friends and family, we call this the seed round, how will this happen in politics.
Prime Minister- I remember an incident from my childhood. There was a doctor in my village, Vasant Bhai Parik. He was a good eye doctor and had a spirit of service. He was also a good orator and spoke Hindi well. He also spoke Gujarati well. He once decided to contest an election independently and all of us, the Vanar Sena, which is also called Bal Sena, used to roam around with flags. I remember roughly. He had taken one rupee from people to contest the election and then he gave an account in a public meeting of how much money he had received and perhaps two hundred and fifty rupees were spent. He had won the election by a very small margin of votes but he had won. So it is not that society does not know the truth. You need patience, you need dedication. Secondly, there should not be a sense of a contract that if I do so much, I should get votes. Then you do not succeed in life. That is why I said that politics should be brought out of these elections, MLAs and MPs which have been tied to this.
Any work related to social life that we do creates political impact. Even if someone runs a small ashram, works for educating girls, does not contest elections himself, but his efforts have a result that political results come out. And that is why there is a need to see politics on a very big canvas and sometimes I say that in democracy, the voter himself is in a way a politician. When he casts his vote, he applies his mind, whether he should vote for this person or not, whether he should vote for that person or not, he has some feelings for that person, he has feelings for that person, so in my case in democracy, I feel that even though I am in politics, I am not the so-called politician that I am. I have to give these political speeches only during elections, it is my compulsion, I don't like it but I have to do it, it is such a compulsion that my entire time is spent on governance except during elections and when I was not in power, my entire time was spent on organization, human resource development, I used to spend in shaping the lives of my workers. How to make speeches, how to write press notes, how to do mass mobilization, I used to be engaged in each and every thing. I did not get involved in the hassle of saying so and so, so and so and here also you must have seen, when I was in Gujarat. Like when I became the new Chief Minister, then one of the tasks before me was an earthquake, so I went to the earthquake affected area. I held a meeting with the officers and asked them, I said, by then it had been nine months since the earthquake, I had gone in the month of October, so they said sir, this will happen by the month of March, I said brother, the month of March is in your mind, get out of the government year, the financial year because of the budget, tell me what you will do before 26 January, because the country will come and see on 26 January what happened in a year. So our target, so I said give me the target of December end, then the officers then I said, okay brother there were 43 talukas, I said every officer is in charge of one taluka and you are the Chief Minister of that block, go and show me the work done there. You have to go on Friday, I will ask on Monday what you did? Everyone went and came back, the first meeting was held. In the meeting they said sir this cannot happen. I said why? They said sir this rule is such that… I said who made the rule? They said we made it. I said now you went to that ground, then you came to know what is the problem of the common man. I said change the rules now and all the rules were changed by the same people and the work was done rapidly and when the media from all over the country and the world went there in the month of January, they felt that I was not doing politics there. I was motivating everyone with a team spirit and taking them towards a result. I was not experienced, I was new. I had no knowledge of running a government.
When I came here to Delhi, I called my secretaries one day. I said I have a wish, will you do something? They sir, you tell me what… I said you all should take a leave of two-three days with your families. So they thought what is this ? I said but there is one thing to do during the leave, when you became an IAS officer and you did your first job, go to that village. Stay there for two nights, take your children along and tell your wife and children that brother I used to sit in this office, there was no fan here, there was only one Ambassador car and four people used to go, show everything and then we will come and talk. Everyone went, came back… I said sir, did you come? They said yes sir, I came! Did you meet the old people? They said I met! I said I have a very serious question for you, the place where you went, where you started your job, 25 years ago, 30 years ago, you have reached here from there, is the village the same as it was 25 years ago or has it changed? They all got hurt, they thought yes sir he is the same as before! I said tell me who is responsible? So I didn't say anything bad to them, I motivated them, introduced them to reality. I took them back to that world, 25 years ago, so my way of working... I never have to abuse anyone. I don't have to scold anyone. I work in these ways.
Nikhil Kamath: And if you talk about organizations, in entrepreneurship startup businesses when the cycle is going well, people hire a lot of people. Then the market slows down or the cycle changes and they have to fire a lot of people. You have always said minimum government maximum governance, has this our government have we been able to achieve this to a certain accent? How is it going?
Prime Minister: You will find it right! Some people in our country have interpreted the minimum government maximum governance in their own way due to lack of understanding. Some people thought that less number of ministers means minimum government, some people thought that less number of employees means minimum government, I never imagined this. On top of that, I came and created a separate skill ministry, a separate cooperative ministry, a separate fisheries ministry. So for all the focus areas in the country… when I say minimum government maximum governance, the process that goes on here is long, if you have to get a clearance, it takes six months. There is a court case, so cases of a hundred years old are still pending. So what we did, we removed about 40000 compliances, otherwise this department will ask you for this thing, the brother next to you will ask for the same thing, the third one will also ask for the same thing. Brother, one has asked for it, you should use it! 40000 compliances, you can imagine how much burden a common man in India has to bear. I have abolished almost 1500 laws. I have changed the laws related to criminal things. So my vision of minimum government maximum governance is this and today I see that all these things are happening.
Nikhil Kamath: Sir, India Stack, as we are the direct beneficiaries of it, UPI, eKYC Aadhaar, did you think when it was conceptualised that it would play out in the manner that it did?
Prime Minister: Today I can send money directly to the accounts of 10 crore farmers in 30 seconds. Today I can send subsidy money to 13 crore gas cylinder consumers in 30 seconds with one click. Why? Because of Jan Dhan accounts. The leakage of crores of rupees of the country, the corruption that used to happen, has gone and technology has found a use. Now you see UPI, it is a wonder for the whole world, when guests from the world come, they ask how UPI works? I tell them to go to a vendor! India has set an example in front of the world in the world of fintech and how technology is democratized. Today, if the youth of the country have a mobile phone in their pocket, they do not need anything and the youth of my country will remember someday that there was a government when the whole world was in my pocket, in my mobile. This is a technology driven century, the country has created a commission for separate innovation. I have set up a separate fund for innovation. Youngsters should take risks, they should feel that even if I fail, I will not die of hunger, someone will take care of me.
I once went to Taiwan! My nature is that of a student, I have a quality within me, so I can say that a student is alive within me. So I met all the leaders there and I was so happy that out of all their leaders, if there was a minister of transport, he had done PhD in transport from the best university in the world. That means, he was a PhD holder in the subject of which he was a minister, from the top most university. This thing made a big impact on my mind. In my country too, I want such youth who can take the country to that level. When I went to Taiwan, I had an interpreter. He was a qualified engineer and well educated. So the government there had appointed him as an interpreter with me and I had a 10-day tour of Taiwan. I was the guest of that government. This was also before I became the Chief Minister, so in the last few days he asked me that Sir, I want to ask one thing, if you don't mind? No no, I said brother you have been living together for so many days, what would it hurt, you should ask! No no, He said you will feel bad, He kept on avoiding, I said don't do this brother, you have something in your mind, you should ask? So he asked me that sir, does black magic still work in India? There are still snake charmers in India? That poor guy had this image of India in his mind. I stayed with him for so many days, I used to discuss technology, still he had this in his mind. I took him as a joke, I said look brother, now our ancestors used to play with snakes, we are not able to play, we now play with the mouse and I said every child of my country plays with the mouse. I said the strength of my country is in that mouse. That India of snake charmers was different.
Nikhil Kamath: One thing that everyone agrees about is that the perception of India is also common in entrepreneurship that marketing is a very big part of building a company. You have changed the perception of India outside of India a lot. Can you give some tips about this that an entrepreneur can learn?
Prime Minister: First of all, it is not correct to claim that I have changed. My view has always been that whoever goes to the world, the person sent by the government, is an ambassador. He who goes is a national ambassador. If we take them on board, our strength will increase manifold. So you must have seen that we have created Niti Aayog, one of our initial objectives is to connect the strength of the Indian community spread across the world, this is written. So my well thought out view is that all the strengths in the world should be connected. Secondly, even before I became the Chief Minister, I had gone abroad a lot and then I used to stay among the people of the organization, I used to go among them, so I was familiar with their strength and I also had contacts. Once I had gone for a work on the instructions of Atal Ji, and I was quite successful in that. This power was not used earlier, but when I started channelizing it, the world's politicians also started feeling that this is a very big force, a very big power. Secondly, they saw that if there is minimum crime anywhere, it is among Indians. If they are well educated, they are Indians. If there are people who obey the law, they are Indians. So the sense of ownership started increasing. The cumulative effect of all this has happened and due to this, the country's profile is increasing today.
Nikhil Kamath: And I am not saying this just like that Sir! When I was a child, when I was studying in Bangalore 14, 15, 16, 20, 25 years ago, it used to seem that a man who went to college, went to the US, did a PhD and is working at Microsoft or some such company, that was the highlight, there was nothing greater than that for us. But I can say that today when I meet 18-year-old boys, they are not like that. These people are talking about building India. These people are going abroad and talking very little about colleges, in comparison to then, so this is the big change and I have seen this and Sir if you again you take the example of entrepreneurship versus politics, competition is a good thing in my world, is competition a good thing in your world as well?
Prime Minister: I would like to tell you two-three different things about this. I used to say publicly that you will regret if you do not return to India, at least set foot there as soon as possible, the era is about to change, I used to say this and I remember when in between you had asked me a question about the setback, I was the Chief Minister of a Democratic elected government and the American government had refused to give me a visa. In my personal life, going to America was not a big deal for me, I had gone there before also, no one had said much to me… but the insult of an elected government and a state, the insult of this country, I used to feel this and I had a pang in my heart that what is happening? Just because some people spread lies, these decisions were made in the world, this is how the world works, I had a feeling in my mind. But that day I held a press conference and I said that today the American government has cancelled my visa. I said what I had to say but I said one thing, I was asked some questions, I said, look, I see such an India now that the whole world will stand in line for visas. This is my statement of 2005 and today we are reaching 2025 and I am speaking. So I also see that now is the time of India. My youth is the common man of my country. I recently went to Kuwait, I went to the labour colony there. So I was meeting all the labourer families. These labourers are those who went there 10-10, 15-15 years ago. So now they may be coming home for weddings, they do not have any more connection than that. A labourer told me, he was in a very interior area. He said when will we have an international airport here? A person who left India 15 years ago to work as a labourer in Kuwait dreams of an international airport in his district. This aspiration will make my country developed in 2047. Today every youth of India has this aspiration.
Nikhil Kamath: It seems that today the whole world is moving towards war. Like Ukraine and Russia for example. When there are Indian nationals in such countries and you are in a way responsible for them by the designation of the Prime Minister of India, then you can say something about it like can you build on this, what happens in these situations, what is happening, should we be worried about what is happening in the world?
Prime Minister: The world has faith in us. What is the reason, we are not being hypocritical! We say what we say clearly. Like during this crisis, we have constantly said that we are not neutral. I constantly say that we are not neutral. Those who say that we are neutral, I am not neutral. I am in favour of peace, my stand is peace and I will support whatever efforts are made for that. I tell this to Russia as well, I tell this to Ukraine as well, I tell this to Iran as well, I tell this to Palestine as well, I tell this to Israel as well and they have faith in my words that whatever I am saying is the truth. And because of that, India's credibility has increased. So just like the countrymen believe that if there is a crisis, my country will definitely take care of me. Similarly, the world believes that if India says brother, it means it believes. See, when the situation of Corona came, our youth of India were at the same place where this incident happened first. Now they had to be brought back, so I told the Air Force people that this is a difficult job. I will give work to those who come forward voluntarily. All the army people came forward, which meant that it was like walking with death. They brought them back, by the grace of God there was no harm. They also brought people from Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh. So my feeling is that if my countryman is in trouble, who will worry about him?
I clearly remember this incident, I have heard that there was an earthquake in Nepal, people were sent from here to Nepal to deal with the earthquake. Someone told me that after three-four days when the plane was bringing people from Nepal to India, as it used to go with goods and come back with people, we did the same. So a gentleman stood in the plane, the whole plane was full. He said that I am a doctor, I keep abusing the government all my life, whichever government it is, I abuse every government, the government takes this tax, income tax, it takes this and that, I said that wherever I got a chance to speak, I kept speaking. But today I understood what is the cost of that tax. Today I am going back alive.
When you serve your countrymen anywhere in the world, goodness awakens in their hearts. They also want to do something good and I am experiencing it. Now you take me to Abu Dhabi and I tell the Crown Prince there that it would be good if you give me a place for a temple. Without a moment's delay, I should be given permission to build a temple in an Islamic country. Today, crores of Hindus are feeling so happy that come on, let's serve our countrymen...
Nikhil Kamath: Like we are talking about other countries. If I digress a little and ask my favorite food, if you ask, it is pizza and pizza is from Italy and people say that you know a lot about Italy on the internet. Do you want to say something about it? Don't see these memes of yours?
Prime Minister: No, that is a regular thing, I don't waste my time on it. I am not what people call a foodie.
Nikhil Kamath: Not at all?
Prime Minister: Absolutely not! That is why whatever is served, in whichever country I go, I eat it with great gusto. But I am so unlucky that if you take me to a restaurant today and give me the menu and ask me to select, I will not be able to do so.
Nikhil Kamath: Sir, will you be able to go to the restaurant?
Prime Minister: I have not been able to go yet. I have not gone yet.
Nikhil Kamath: How many years has it been?
PM: It's been many years!
Nikhil Kamath: When you are outside…
Prime Minister: Earlier, when I used to work for the organisation, our Arun Jaitley ji was a great foodie. He was an encyclopedia of knowing which dish is best in which restaurant in which city of India. So, when we used to go out, we would spend an evening with him in some restaurant. But today, if someone gives me a menu and I ask him to select, I cannot do it because sometimes the name that I read and the dish that is there are the same things. I do not have the knowledge, I am ignorant. Because I have not developed that tendency. So, I do not understand it much. So, I always used to tell Arun ji, bhai Arun ji, you order. I just wanted vegetarian.
Nikhil Kamath: I spoke to a few of your friends… friends or people who know you for more than 10-20 years. And I asked them to tell me such things which are not in the public domain. I will not take their names. They sent me a photo, where the swearing in ceremony of the Chief Minister is going on. Some senior politicians are sitting on the chair, you are sitting below. When I also saw that photo at 38, I only remember the time when you were the Prime Minister or the Chief Minister of Gujarat. No imagery of the time before that comes to my mind, so When I looked at the picture, I was looking at it again and again. If you can tell that this change from there to here means no one can call you 'tu', maybe one of your teachers about whom you have talked. How does this happen? Like I am…
Prime Minister: I am not saying that no one can address me as ‘tu’
Nikhil Kamath: No one says but
Prime Minister: yes no one but it is not correct to infer that no one can address me ‘tu’.
Nikhil Kamath: Correct! Correct!
Prime Minister: But I never get to hear that because life has become like this. Secondly, the position may have changed, circumstances may have changed, systems may have changed, Modi is the same person who used to sit down. And that is why it does not make much difference to me. And I am not just saying this. This is the reality, it does not make any difference to me.
Nikhil Kamath: And sir if you remember, last year I gave a speech in front of you in Vibrant Gujarat when you were also there. I did so badly that after that I hired a speech coach and for a year I have been learning, going to classes, and I have a teacher. How do you do it so well? Can you give some tips? Like this is something everybody wants to learn.
Prime Minister: There are two-three different things. One is that I am often asked if you are a Gujarati. How do you speak Hindi? Earlier, when I used to work for the Sangh, many people used to think that I am from North India, but I live in Gujarat. The reason for this was that we used to sell tea at the railway station. So my village Mehsana, Meh means buffalo! Mehsana means buffalo! So when the buffalo from my village started giving milk, they used to take it to Mumbai and in Mumbai they used to do milk business. They used to come back to the village. So these people doing business were from Uttar Pradesh. So when they used to come, they used to wait for the goods train. Then after getting the goods train, they used to fill it with grass and made arrangements so that four buffaloes could stand inside it. So these 30-40 such people were always there on the railway platform. I used to sell tea, I used to go to give them tea, so I had to talk to them in my childhood, I learnt Hindi while talking to them. These people who used to come to trade buffaloes were also labourers, but in the evening they used to sing bhajans and kirtans. They used to order tea, we used to have tea, and I also learnt to speak Hindi.
Nikhil Kamath: Is it very different sir! Like you grew up in Gujarat. Today you live in Delhi. Is living in both these cities very different for you personally?
Prime Minister: Do we live in a city, brother? We just stay in a corner of our house. We are cut off from home to office and office to home, and from the outside world. When the government system is like this, it is very difficult to differentiate between one city and another.
Nikhil Kamath: And this is my last question Sir, I have asked you some questions…
PM: But your second question was about oratory…
Nikhil Kamath: Correct what I want to learn!
PM: I think you should see, suppose there is a fight or something has happened somewhere, something happened and there are four completely illiterate people there. There may be a woman, an elderly person and you stand with a mike, they start telling quickly, this happened, this happened, the fire broke out like this, this happened… You must have seen that there are such nice words, nice expressions, nice narration, why? It is self experience. When things come out from within you. What is the style of delivery, how do you deliver the dialogue, it is not important. Is there any power of experience in what you are telling or not? Is there any convenience in you telling yourself or not?
Nikhil Kamath: Do you get that feeling inside when you are talking about some sad thing, Do you feel sad at that thing?
Prime Minister: Yes! You must have noticed that many people feel bad about me, but mostly when I talk about the poor, I have to restrain myself, I become emotional. I get criticised a lot in the newspapers, but I am unable to stop myself. When I see such situations in social life, when I remember them, then that feeling naturally arises in my mind.
Nikhil Kamath: And Sir, if whatever you have learnt in your life, you have so much experience, if with this knowledge you could say one thing to your 20 year old version, then what would you say?
Prime Minister: I do not consider myself qualified to preach to the youth and I do not have any right to preach, but I will say that I have a lot of faith in the youth of my country. A village boy, I will not do a job, I will do a startup! Three startups will fail, I remember I did the first startup conference, at that time even the word startup was new in our country. But I knew what its power, so I asked a daughter who had started a few startups to tell their experiences, then a daughter stood up, she said I will tell you my experience. She said she was Bengali, from Calcutta. She started a startup, then she went to meet her mother and told her that she had left her job. So she said what will you do? So she said I have started a startup? Disaster it is! She presented it in such a dramatic way. There was a time when all startups meant disaster! Today, Startups have acquired a reputation, a credibility and hence I believe that even if there is a failure in a small village, people will consider him an ideal, he is a talented kid and is doing something.
Nikhil Kamath: And Sir, if I may ask you a question that as PM, how was your second term different from the first term and how is your third term different from the second term?
Prime Minister: In the first term, people tried to understand me and I was also trying to understand Delhi. In the first and second term, I used to think in terms of the past that earlier we were here, now we will go here. Earlier this much used to happen, now we will do this much. In the third term, the scope of my thinking has changed. My courage has become stronger. My dreams have expanded. My desires are increasing. What I mean to say is that I want a developed India by 2047, it does not mean speeches, but freedom from problems for each and every thing. Toilets should be 100 percent, electricity should be 100 percent, tap water should be 100 percent. Will a common man have to beg his government to ask for anything? Is this some British rule? He has the right! There should be 100 percent delivery, there should be 100 percent beneficiaries, 100 percent benefits should reach them. There will be no discrimination and that is the true social justice, that is the true socialism. So I keep emphasizing on those things and its driving force is aspirational India, for me AI means aspirational India and hence now I think that if I am here in 2047, then how much is left if I come here in 2025? Earlier I used to think, how much have I progressed from before! Now I am thinking that I am here, where will I reach by tomorrow? So now my thoughts run in the context of 2047 only. So my third term is many times different from the two terms, it is a complete change and has a very big dream.
Nikhil Kamath: And Sir Is there a plan beyond you? Is there youth that you have faith in that you are training, inculcating not for today but after 20 years, after 30 years…
Prime Minister: I see that there are people with a lot of potential. When I was in Gujarat, I used to say that even though I run the government, I want to prepare people for the next 20 years and I am doing that and my success lies in how I prepare my team that can handle things, this is my criterion for myself.
Nikhil Kamath: And Sir, my last question is, the minimum requirements to become a politician are not that high. They should be above the age of 25, no conviction of more than two years, voter ID, these are very small requirements. So, what I wish Sir is after this long conversation is that 10,000 such young people should come from anywhere, who should join politics, whom I know you will help, can you tell me about this in closing…
Prime Minister: Look, what you are saying is about the qualifications to become a candidate.
Nikhil Kamath: Yes, correct!
Prime Minister: You are not asking to become a politician
Nikhil Kamath: Right sir!
Prime Minister: To become a politician, you need a lot of qualifications. Thousands of eyes are watching you every moment. If one word of yours is misplaced, then your 10 years of penance goes to waste. You have to be conscious 24x7. You have to live with it, you need an unexpected quality and that is the qualification and it does not come from a university certificate.
Nikhil Kamath: What would you like to say as a bye message, as a party message to all the young people watching this show, if you have a message for them…
Prime Minister: First of all, I would like to tell the mothers, sisters and young daughters that today in our country, in almost every state, there is about 50% reservation for women. In the Panchayat, Gram Pradhan, Nagar Palika, Mahanagar Palika, they should try to be a true leader, they should not think that because women are needed, I have been made a leader and I too… no, we have to lead our society. Men also need to lead, so you have to do it. These mothers and young daughters of mine should stand up with the quality of leadership. I am saying this because in the very near future, 30% reservation is going to come in the MLA and MP category as well. At that time, we will need this type of group a lot, so there is still time of two to four years. I would request them to come into the field and start making efforts to make themselves as capable as possible. This is time, this is your time, understand this.
Secondly, I would like to tell the youth of the country that you should not consider politics as bad and elections are politics, so it is right to vote in a dignified manner. Come into the political field, public life once, in any form and today the country needs leadership which is born from the womb of creativity. Politicians born from the womb of a movement become a different kind of model. There was creativity in the freedom movement too, so a different kind of lot was received. Now the country needs a very large class of people who think creatively, who do something new, who prepare themselves, who understand happiness and sorrow, who find ways, who do not belittle others, but find a way for the country. I am not saying that they are not there today. New people are needed and if the person who is 20-25 years old today comes forward, then by 2047 he will be 40-50 years old, that is, he will be in a proper place where he can run the country. Secondly, when I tell the youth of the country to come forward, some people will think that I want to hoist the BJP flag. I am talking about the politics of the country, I am not telling anyone to join the Bharatiya Janata Party or go to a particular party or not to go to a particular party. I just want that there should be a new flow in all parties, it should come in all parties. It should definitely come in BJP but it should come in all parties so that the youth of the country come forward so that something new starts.
Nikhil Kamath: Thank you Modiji for being here…
PM: Well, it was great that it was my first podcast.
Nikhil Kamath: You gave us so much time, thank you so much!
Prime Minister: I don't know how this will go for you guys, your audience!
Nikhil Kamath: You spoke extremely well as always and very kind that you took this much time with us.
Prime Minister: Let's go! Your team must be tired too! Keep this weather in mind brother, it is cold here.
Nikhil Kamath: Yes!
DISCLAIMER: This is the approximate English translation of PM's conversation with entrepreneur, Nikhil Kamath, Original interaction was in Hindi.