# Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Friday, 6 April 1838/Joel Samuel Polack

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Mr. Joel Samuel Polack is called in, and examined as follows:
You have been a good deal in New Zealand, have you not?
    I have.
You are a British Subject?
    I am a Londoner.
Have you resided a Length of Time together in New Zealand?
    I should say about Six consecutive Years.
In what Capacity?
    A Commercial Trader.
In what Year did you go out?
    In 1831. I left the 15th of May last.
In what Part of the Island did you reside?
    I resided in Hokianga about Twelve Months, afterwards in the Bay of Islands, about Four Years at one Time; I was travelling in various Parts also, and during that Period I went on an Expedition in search of a navigable Port for Vessels or for Convenience, and was a long Time among the Natives, and being among them I could listen to all their Ideas of every thing they had to say about the Country; not belonging to a Body of Men attached to any Society, they freely told me their Thoughts without Disguise; they are very particular on that Head.
Did you understand their Language?
    I did.
Did your Conversation turn at any Time upon the Chance of Europeans settling there in larger Numbers?
    Yes, often.
Did the Natives appear to understand what was meant by Colonization , or by Europeans settling there; and what appeared to be their Feeling and Wish about it?
    In the first place, the Missionaries have been invariably against Europeans settling there; of course the Natives regard the Missionaries Ideas on the Subject much; but, as far as I have heard from other Europeans, many of them would like it much, because if they plant they do not know whether they will reap what they have planted, in consequence of the continual Wars amongst them.
Do you think that they would look to the Introduction of more Europeans as a Mode of introducing Quiet in the Country?
    They would undoubtedly.
Are they intelligent with respect to the Cultivation of their Lands?
    There is no Nation more intelligent on Land or any other Subject. As a Proof of that there is at the present Moment sailing out of Sydney a Mr. Bailey, a New Zealander, Chief of the Tribe of Waitangi in the Bay of Islands; he is chief Officer of the Earl Stanhope Whale Ship; and if he had not been a Foreigner, as a New Zealander, he would long since have had the Command of the Vessel. There are at the present Moment sailing on the Pacific Ocean Ships with Cargoes worth from 20,000l. and upwards steered by New Zealanders Day and Night. Where they had an Opportunity of being instructed they have shown great Ability; their Farms have astonished every Stranger who ​has seen them; every one is surprised at seeing the Beauty of their Land, the weeding of it, and the Regularity of every thing.
Had you an Opportunity of seeing the Manner in which any Land was acquired by Europeans?
    I have purchased Five different Pieces.
What was the Nature of the Transaction by which you acquired Possession of that Land?
    The first Piece I acquired I requested the Chief to sell to me; the other Pieces I bought the Natives requested me to purchase, and at the same Time they told me, “Now, remember you are going to get our Land; this descended from our Forefathers; do not think to give us a mere Trifle for it; give us that which we should have. See that Stream; so let your Payment be; it goes in various Creeks, and refreshes all the Land about it; so must your Payment refresh all concerned.” Then again they would say, “The Things you give us are nothing like the Value of the Land; that will last for ever; but what will become of your Blankets? They will become sick or dead by-and-by. What becomes of your Tomahawks? They will all be sick or dead. Glass and Iron are brittle; you are going to steal our Land from us.” (They are fond of joking.) “Your Payment must be good to us.”
They held out that the Equivalent which you gave for the Land must be of a valuable Nature?
    Yes. “There is this Tree; look at it; if one Branch falls there will come another; it will remain to your Children; but what will come to my Children when these Things are worn out?” They have a full Knowledge of the Value of the Land.
After expressing their full Knowledge of the Value of the Article you were to have, and the Article you were to give, they proceeded to make the Agreement?
    Yes; then they would say what they wanted. I went with the Natives and marked the Boundaries. I would have European Witnesses who had nothing to do with the Land. After that I took them home to my Store, and gave them the Payment I would make them; some would object to it; others would say, “Oh, it is good; we will have it;” then they went together and talked. Perhaps they did not come again for Three or Four Days; then they would come and say to me “No; give us this, and this, and this, and then the Land is yours.”
Was that the Mode, in point of fact, in which you acquired Possession of the Land you have?
    It was.
Had you an Opportunity of employing the Natives as Servants?
    Yes; the Land is so cut up by Water that we are obliged to go backwards and forwards in Beats; I employed native Boys; sometimes they would stop, and at Times they would run away. In improving my Place on the Kororarika, I had to employ some Men to dig away Part of the Hill; the Natives would come, and I would say , “How much will you dig me that for?” “Oh, give me a Blanket; give me an Axe;” or they would say, I will work for you for Three Weeks for so much. In no Instance have I deceived the Natives.
Did the Natives generally perform the Quantity of Service they undertook to perform?
    As far as boating went they did; but where digging was required they did not like it at all; after One or Two Days their Hearts got pore or dark as they called it.
It was hard Work for them?
    Yes; but as Farm Servants they are admirable; and if the Place is colonized no People will become better Farm Servants than the New Zealanders. There are Numbers on board American Ships. I was with Commodore Jones, who is now on an Expedition from America; he took me on board his Vessel, the Macedonian, and showed me a New Zealander there; in fact in all the Ports of America I saw New Zealanders; and there are Numbers here sometimes.
​Do you happen to know any New Zealanders now in London who have come in Whale Ships or any other Vessels?
    No.
When a Purchase such as you describe has been made of Land from the Natives what becomes of the Sellers; do they remove to a Distance?
    No; they will sell such Land as they can part with; the Land they had originally taken by War. In the whole of Kipara, and various other Parts, there was not a Soul that I could see on the Land.
Looking to the Amount of Population, with reference to the Extent of the Land, does it appear to you that there is a good deal of Land which might be cultivated by Europeans, still leaving the Natives sufficient for their Occupation?
    There is; there are about Five Natives to every Three Square Miles of Land. The Northern Island is the most populous; at the same Time it is the smallest. I have been many Miles without seeing a Native; I have been many Nights in the Bush without the Chance of seeing a Native.
Has the Influx of Europeans been greater or less of late Years?
    The Influx of Europeans has been wonderfully increasing. The last Time the Buffalo Store Ship, which is now on the Coast for Her Majesty loading with Spars, was there, there was very little Population; now the Land is bought by Mr. Kemp, One of the Catechists, and by others; but a great Part of the Land which was tabooed for the Use of the Buffalo is now purchased by Mr. Kemp, and the Spars I expect they will not get off that Land. There has been much Noise, I am sorry to say, about buying Land; for instance, some of the Missionaries have been enabled, by their Knowledge of the Language, to have a better Chance of purchasing Land than others, and those who have perhaps understood the Language less have been ousted out of the Bargains they intended. Queen Charlotte Sound, in the Southern Island, Cloudy Bay, Otargo, and all down to the South West is inhabited by European Gangs of Whalers for Merchants resident in Sydney. On the South Island there are Europeans, and there have been Europeans there for the last Five-and-thirty Years past, what the Natives call Kou Matuas; that is, old Men living there for the last Forty Years on the Coast. There are innumerable Europeans; they were principally Sealers; lately Whalers.
What is the State of Manners or Morals among the European Population generally?
    Decidedly bad.
There exists no Law to control or correct them?
    None, but that of Force.
How would Colonization prevent Wars between the Natives?
    By employing their Minds and their Bodies; by Europeans settling between them; by Europeans taking up the Slaves as Farm Servants. The Slaves of New Zealand are very impertinent; they are given to Invention and Lies, and those are Things which cause more Wars between the Natives than any thing else. The Chiefs ought to have an Authority. I have written out to the different Chiefs of whom I have purchased Land, stating that in the event of the Place being colonized I will allow them every Year an annual Stipend; and I hope every other European will take the same Method.
On what Principle do you mean to grant an Annuity when you have purchased the Freehold?
    Solely for this Reason: the Persons I have bought it of have been principally Chiefs; they have looked up to me as a respectable Man, and I should wish to keep up that Respectability. I have, I will not say an Affection, but an Esteem for them. I am not speaking in a philanthropic Manner; but I have these Letters on the Eve of being sent out by means of the Wesleyan Society, directed to Mr. Turner, one of the Wesleyan Missionaries.
Will not they expect that you will require some Service in return for their Payment?
    No; they know very well I have acted perhaps very differently from Europeans in general. I have said, “Now , I have bought your Land;” (it was ​offered me by the Natives, and it was their Wish that I should purchase it;) “but I shall give you something more.” I bought the Land to trade on, instead of their coming over to me a long Distance.
What was the Quantity of the First Lot?
    I cannot state that; I have no Knowledge of the Extent of the Land; it might be Seventy and it might be 270 Acres; but certainly not more; but principally hilly. My purchasing Land was in a commercial point of view, that I might have Frontage. I did not look for a large Quantity of Land.
What did you give for that?
    I did not bring my Deeds To-day, being called suddenly; but the Sums are upon them; and I shall be happy to produce them. I am inclined to think that my first Piece of Land, bought in 1833, cost me 15l. only, but in Trade with the New Zealanders.
Do you mean to say that you bought the 250 Acres, or whatever it might be, for 15l.?
    I did; it may be 15l. or 25l.; there was One Piece I gave 15l. and another 25l. for. The next Piece of Land was Nine and a Half Acres only; that is still more valuable than the other of 270; I gave 40l. for that.
Where were the Deeds drawn up?
    In the Bay of Islands.
By whom?
    By myself, with the European Witnesses, and the native Witnesses who walked over the Land. The Land is easily known by the Natives; each Native knows his Land by a Creek or a peculiar Tree, or a sort of Raoui or Monument on the Land. For example, there are Two Brother Chiefs, perhaps the Father leaves that Land to them, the one has perhaps One Child, the other perhaps Seven Children, he divides his Land among the Seven in Proportions, and each knows to an Inch the Spot of his Land; they are very particular in it.
You are to be understood to say the Land descends from the Father, and is divided among his Children?
    Yes; the Right in the Land is hereditary; the Child knows that before an English Child could walk.
Does he know that it is hereditary, to be divided among him and all his Brothers?
    Yes.
Are all those Children the Children of One Wife or Half a Dozen Wives?
    Of more Wives, perhaps.
How many Children have you ever known a Chief have?
    Polygamy is the worst thing that can be for Children; Marriage is generally made for political Purposes; the head Wife is the Principal, and much Noise and Trouble and Dissension is occasioned by this. As to the poor Last- comer, if the Husband has any Feeling for her he dare not show it, for he is sometimes under the Petticoat Government; he may be an inferior Chief, and have married a superior Chief Woman, as such he is completely under her Lash.
Do you know of any Land of any of those Natives being divided among Ten of their Children?
    I do not recollect any Case; but if there were Twenty Children it would be equally divided. I do not think that the elder or younger being better behaved would get any more.
Does it go among Sons only?
    The Daughters get a Portion, and even Women are allowed to be Chiefs.
Do you know an Instance of that?
    I was passing a Cemetery in my Boat; I asked whose it was; they said it was such an one's, mentioning the Name of a Chieftess; that she was buried there; then they said, “Do not stay here; the Atua will come upon us.” That is, the God will lay hold of us.
​Might not they mean the Wife of a Chieftain?
    Of course it might be; but she was not the Wife of a Chieftain, but the sole Child of a Chief. She inherited it; and if she married that went to her, just the same as by our own Laws.
Do you know of any Instance of that occurring at the present Moment?
    There is Riwoa, who I know has married a superior Chieftess and got a superior Quantity of Land. Titare, a Chief of the Bay of Islands, married the Sister of E’Ongi. He was one of the most valiant of the Chieftains. She brought him a vast Quantity of Land and Slaves, and made him a superior Man among his people.
Do you know any Instance of a Woman acting as Chief of a Tribe?
    Ladies do not like Celibacy in New Zealand.
Do you know any Instance of a Woman acting as Chief of a Tribe?
    I cannot remember any at the present Moment.
Is there generally a head Chief, with a certain Number of other Chieftains that are second to him in Rank, those second Chiefs having Land of their own?
    It is so.
Can those second Chiefs sell their Land without the Consent of the head Chief?
    They can; but it is regarded as an Act of Insult to the principal Chief if he is not allowed to give the Payment from the European to other Chiefs. He reserves nothing for himself.
Who gets the Money if he sells his own Land?
    If he sells a Portion of his own Land that Land belongs to his Children, generally speaking. I have never bought any Land but that which belonged to a Chief and his Children. The whole of the Payment is given round. A European was purchasing Land once when I was passing the Place, a Chief asked me to land, and I had Three or Four Heads of Tobacco given me, as my Part of the Payment, because I happened to be passing at the Time.
They have told you that the Price was perishable; that the Blankets would be wearing out and the Muskets be of no Use, but that the Land remained; and that if they sold their Land they might be depriving Children they might have after that Sale?
    No; there was no Occasion to tell me that.
Were they aware that they were robbing their Children of that Land?
    No. They had fought for it, and obtained it, and made it theirs; but the Children got the principal Payment, and when the Chief has got any thing from me it has been generally some Present afterwards. The Feeling of Pride he has in giving it away gives him more Pleasure than any thing he gets, unless it is a double-barrelled Piece.
A double-barrelled Piece they set a great Value upon, do they not?
    They do so. I never gave one in exchange for Land. I gave, in addition to the Payment, a Quantity of Trifles; that even the Slaves on the Land, or born on the Land, might say “I have smoked his Tobacco,” or “I have had his Tomahawk.”
During your Residence at the Bay of Islands and the Neighourhood of the Missionary Stations, are you of opinion that the Missionaries have well performed their Duty?
    Generally speaking, as a Body, I should think they had. Unfortunately there have been some among them who have undone all that was done before. I could mention one Circumstance that would prove that what had been done by well-disposed Men, and perfectly fit for their Calling, had been undone by others.
Are you not of opinion that the Practices of the Europeans in the Bay of Islands may have had some Effect against the Missionaries?
    Not only may but it has done much against them; but the Conduct of One or Two of their own Body has been such as to undo much they could have done themselves, and to have thrown Dishonour upon their Names.{{nop)) ​In point of fact, do you not know that some of the Missionaries have more Influence in New Zealand than any other Persons in the Country?
    They have; but the native Dealings with the Missionaries are with the whole Body; as such the Missionaries cannot know the Character of the Native, and they do not know the Character of the People among whom they are; it is only the Traders, like myself and others, who can know them.
Are not the Missionaries in the habit of going among the People?
    If a Native insults One Missionary he insults the whole Body. A Man comes down with Hogs and Potatoes; he comes to me; I say, “What do you want for them? I will not give it you; I will give you so much.” He does not sell them to me; but, perhaps, he abuses me; but if a Missionary chooses to say, “I will give you only so much for your Hogs and Potatoes,” he will say, “Well, if you do not like to give it me, good Morning to you.” He does not show his whole Character to them, but a Character of Duplicity towards the Missionary.
The Effect of that Duplicity is to make them control their bad Feelings, is it not?
    I should say not.
If a Man will insult you, a Trader, and will not insult a Missionary, is not that controlling their bad Feeling?
    That is Matter of Opinion. If he insult me he can go to the next Trader and sell his Provisions.
You have some Servants and Persons employed upon the Land; were they Slaves?
    Chiefs even, as well as Slaves.
How did you agree for Slaves; did you make an Agreement with the Man, or with the Chief?
    Often, when I wanted a Boy for a Boat, if I could not get a Boy I would go to a Man, saying, “I wish you would let me have your Boy.” “No; he is going to dig.” Then such a one. “No; he is going to fish. But if you will give me so much, then he may go.” But perhaps he would not go. Sometimes I might make an Agreement with the Man or Boy himself. Sometimes I have had a Chief and a Slave working together in the same Boat, laughing and talking altogether alike.
Do you mean to say that the Slave would refuse the Command of the Chief?
    Yes, in the Bay of Islands; because they know they are under the Protection of the Europeans; that they cannot kill them; they know that the Europeans will not trade with them if they do.
Are you not aware that there has been most atrocious Conduct in the Seas adjoining New Zealand by British Vessels?
    Horrible; dreadful to relate.
Do you think that those Persons who committed those Crimes will not debase and corrupt the People?
    I was speaking of the Traders who were settled among them. The Crimes which have been committed have been horrible.
Has the native Population decreased?
    It has.
Do you account for that chiefly by War?
    No; I think the principal Cause is Infanticide. I have seen many Women who have destroyed their Children, either by Abortion, or, after their Birth, putting them into a Basket and throwing them into the Sea, after pressing the Frontal Bones of their Heads.
Why have they done that?
    I have had Conversation with them upon it. I saw a Girl one Day, and knowing she was pregnant, I said “Where is the Child?” The Answer was, “Gone.” “Gone where? where is it gone to?” “I killed it,” was the Answer, with the greatest Apathy. I felt rather curious at the Moment, and ​showed it. She said , “What a Fool you are! it was not yours.” I said, “I am aware of that.” She then described how it was done. They destroy the Children generally by pressing the Nose until Life is extinct. I said, “How should you have liked it if your Mother had served you the same?” She said, “Oh, I should have been pleased at it; I should not have been the poor miserable Thing I have been, to be knocked about by a Master or a Husband.”
Is this Woman a Slave?
    A free Woman; one of the middling Class. Another Woman was supposed to have killed Eight Children of her own; she had Two Children by the Master of a Whaler. Their principal Reason is that they have not Food to bring them up when unmarried; it is principally the unmarried Women who have the Trouble of procuring them Food; they cannot go about their Plantations, for they have nobody to take care of their Children.
Why should the Trouble of getting Food have increased in consequence of Europeans having settled there?
    I should not say the Crime of Infanticide had increased; on the contrary, it has decreased much since Europeans have been amongst them.
If it has decreased since Europeans have been amongst them, which has been Thirty Years, how do you account for the Depopulation which is rapidly taking place?
    Polygamy is another Cause of the Decrease which has taken place.
Has that increased?
    No; but Wars have increased.
Do you think that Wars have been increased since Europeans have been there?
    Yes; but not through Europeans.
How do you account for the Increase of Wars?
    I cannot account for the Wars having increased; but the Increase has been since Europeans have been there. It is supposed the Europeans have caused it. I believe among the Tribes where the Europeans have been living the Decrease has been greater. In the Sandwich Islands it is supposed no Woman would have Two Children who lived with an Englishman.
Do you refer to the Decrease of the Population among those who have had Communication with the Europeans?
    No.
Do you apprehend that the Decrease among those who have been connected with the Europeans has been greater than among the other Tribes?
    The principal Cause of the Decrease was the Wars on the first Introduction of Fire-arms; that must of course decrease them, for those who have no Fire-arms are obliged to give in to those who have; that was so when E’Ongi came to England. His Majesty George the Fourth thought fit to allow him a Number of Arms and Ammunition. He determined to be superior to all. The Governor of New South Wales gave him Cows and serviceable Things; those he exchanged for Arms; he extirpated the whole Tribes on the River Thames, and made dreadful Ravages all over the Islands. Where there were no Muskets the Natives on the South of the Island invited Europeans, and told them they would dress them any Quantity of Flax if they would come among them and give them Arms for their Defence; and the Missionaries stated that at Tauranga, where all had Muskets, they have acted only, so far as they have known, on the defensive.
You account for the Decrease of the Population from Muskets, Powder, and Ball having been sent to that Country?
    Yes, at first; but that has remedied itself, for at the present Day there is less Harm done in a War with Fire-arms than there was formerly. In May last there was a War in the Bay of Islands; I was there; there were about Thirty to Forty Canoes went every Day to fight at a Fortification up the River. I may say, without Exaggeration, on my Oath, that at least 20,000 Round of Ball Cartridge was expended daily when they went out. The Return of the killed ​and wounded proves that though there were perhaps 3,000 Natives engaged the Loss was but a Cipher. At another Period the valiant Fellows lost Three.
You are of opinion that hereafter the Population will not decrease much by War?
    The Population will not decrease by War, on account of the Equalization of Fire-arms; but the Loss of the Population, and a frightful Loss it has been to a small Population, has been on the Introduction, when one Party had Fire-arms and the other Party had not; they have no Bows and Arrows to fight at a Distance.
On what do you found your Estimate of One Native to Three Square Miles?
    I have inquired of the Natives, when I have been travelling, how many lived under such a Chief. When I have been bivouacking in the Forest they have come round me to converse. I do not think the Population of the entire Country, from what I have heard from the Natives, exceeds 130,000 Inhabitants.
Can you state how many there are in the Northern Island?
    I cannot say.
Do you know how many Acres there are in the entire Country?
    Nearly 100,000 Square Miles, I should say.
You have stated that Mr. Kemp the Catechist has purchased the Wood in that Part of the Country to which one of Her Majesty's surveying Vessels has gone to purchase Spars?
    He has purchased the Land on which there are Spars, which were devoted expressly for Captain Sadler on his next Return. Whether the Return was to have been in Twelve Months or Twenty-four Months, I cannot say; but after that Time Tetaris, who supplied His late Majesty with Spars, sold it; and he has quarrelled with other Persons in that Country about other Spar Land.
Why do you think that Her Majesty's Ships will not get Spars; will not it be Mr. Kemp’s Interest to supply them to Her Majesty?
    He may act so, but the Captain will not get them from the native Chief; he has sold the Land.
You do not mean to say that the Spars will not be procured?
    No. The Man of course will see to his own Interest; he may sell them to the Captain.
How do you account for the Chief having promised his Spars to Captain Sadler, and after that Promise having sold the Land?
    The Chief acted honourably; he said he would tabu it for a certain Time; that Time expired, and then he sold it.
You did not bring that as a Charge against the Chief or against Mr. Kemp?
    No.
Do you know the Proportion of Europeans in that Country?
    It is so straggling it is impossible to say; it is continued from the North Cape to the South, where there are European Seamen who settle on a Portion of the Land.
The Committee understand that there are Ministers of the Church of England; are there any of your Faith?
    Of the Jewish Persuasion none, with the Exception of Mr. Montefiore, who is Cousin of the Mr. Montefiore who has been before the Committee To-day; there are only Four of that Persuasion; the only Person I am acquainted with or have Intercourse with, as a Friend, is Mr. Montefiore.
There is no Synagogue there?
    No.
Do you know whether the Roman Catholics have any Missionaries there?
    No; the only Missionaries are those of the Church Missionary Society, who have several Stations North and South, and the Wesleyan Missionaries. The Wesleyan Missionaries have done Wonders for the Time they have been there. ​I was in Hokianga for Twelve Months, in 1831 and 1832; I paid them a Visit in January or February 1837, and I was perfectly astonished at the Alteration of the Natives.
Have they purchased any Land?
    The present Missionaries, I believe, have not; the late Mr. White did purchase some.
To whom does the Land they reside on belong?
    To the Wesleyan Missionary Society. They purchased Land at Wangaroa, from whence they were ousted. One of the Missionaries, a Mr. Stack, some Years afterwards went to Wangaroa. A Native asked Mr. Stack if he would not come again; he said, "Oh, if we come, we shall have to purchase Land." "What," says he; "have not you got Land here?" "Oh, but we were turned off. The Native replied , "If the Land was made over it belongs to you, does not it?" Of course the Land you bought remains yours; we can never take away the Land from you. Come, and let us hear you karakia," that is, "preach;" which shows that the Ignorance of Mr. Stack to their Customs would have enabled the Native to act wrong, if he had thought proper; but it was the native Law.
Have you visited any of the Schools at the Wesleyan Missionary Stations?
    The Missionaries' behaved in the kindest Manner to me,- showed me their Schools and Improvements; but there was a Crusade at the Time among the Natives, so that every thing was at a Stand-still; they had no Opportunity of getting on with any thing. That was occasioned by a new Religion which has sprung up, called Papahurihia. It has been said the Captain of a Ship first introduced it, but it is impossible to believe it. They have made their Sunday on the Saturday, and work on the Sunday, which they had hitherto refrained from, for they had left off working on the Sunday. There was a Quarrel between those who had embraced the Tenets of the Wesleyans and those new Lights; there was some skirmishing among them, and many Lives lost. I was there when the wounded were brought in; they were relieved by the Europeans; but the Influence of the Wesleyans over the Natives had caused a Cessation of that War.
Are you aware whether the native Children have been educated, so as to be able to read and write?
    In their own Language, many of them. I have some of their Letters, which I shall be happy to produce.
Does the Church Missionary Society possess much Land?
    Yes; and the Members belonging to the Mission.
Do you know whether that has produced an injurious Effect, so far as their Labours go?
    No.
Do you think that leads them away to secular Pursuits?
    No; I have always been inclined to think that secular Pursuits have been of Service to the New Zealanders, for they are constantly active, more in Mind than in Body; they must have something to do or they would be thinking of Harm. A Colonization would employ their Minds as well as their Bodies. Now, when they sit idle, they think how their Forefathers have been conquered and have been eaten, and so on, and that causes Quarrels. It is impossible to prevent Colonization; but it will be Colonization of the worst Kind which must annihilate the People. The generality of the present European Population now residing in New Zealand will destroy, will extirpate and annihilate, the People ; it cannot be otherwise. Many of those Men are superior to the Missionaries in their Influence. A Native looks to the People who will give him most Payment. What is a Man who understands Greek or Latin, or Drawing, or Music, or has superior Manners? the Native does not like him so well; but those who come nearest to themselves will have most Influence. They take the Natives Daughters, and a Native gets a certain Payment for that Concubinage; no Respect for the Missionaries creates an Influence like this.
​Do you think the Church Missionary Society is hostile to the proposed System of Colonization?
    Decidedly.
Are the Wesleyans also?
    I have never heard their Opinion; but I am decidedly of opinion that the Church Missionaries and their Members have been invariably hostile to it.
Do you know on what Ground?
    Solely with a Wish to keep People out of the Country and have the Place to themselves.
You state that the Property is equally divided between the Chief and his Children; can he disinherit his Children?
    Yes, he can. If the Chief likes, he can disinherit a Child, or give one of them more than another; but I do not remember a Case of the Kind.
You know that he has the Power?
    Yes. He has the power to kill One of his Children or One of his Wives; but he must bear the Onus, as the Relations of the Wife or Children would perhaps demand his Life in payment, for they consider the Life of the Child as theirs.
When you made a Purchase of Land, did you understand that to make a Title to the Land there was any Consent necessary but the Consent of the Chief?
    I regarded the Chief as sufficient; but I never so treated it, for I got their Consent, and in my Deeds I have their Names.
If they had not consented, should you consider your Right as equally good?
    Yes; because he had a Right to take the Land which descended to him from his Forefathers, or which came to him by Conquest.
He makes no Distinction between the Two?
    No.
Do you know to what Extent the Purchasers of Land in New Zealand have gone on of late?
    No.
Does the Acquisition of Land by European Settlers proceed gradually?
    Yes. None have purchased Land in so large Quantities as the Members of the Church Missionaries. I say again, I do not think the Wesleyans have bought any as yet, except for the Society. The last Conversation I had was with Mr. Baker, the Catechist. I came from Sydney in January 1837. Mr. Baker asked me, and also Mr. Henry Williams, “What do you think of the Conduct of the Natives of Kororarika?” That is opposite Paihia the Missionary Settlement, which would be a principal Town in the Event of its being colonized. I said, “I am sorry to say the Natives have retrograded; every thing has gone back.” They said, “It is astonishing how the Natives have gone back; we thought the People were paying Attention to us, but we find they have gone rapidly back.” Talking about Maungakahia, Mr. Baker said, “What do you think of Maungakahia?” I said, “What a Pity that such a splendid Valley as that should have so few native Settlements, and no Europeans.” He said, “Oh, you must not say that, for I have got some Land there.” I said, “In what Part?" He said, “Do you know such a Chief? I have got his Land.” I said, “How much; 500 Acres?” “Oh yes; more than that.” Have you got 1,000 Acres?” “Yes; more than that.” I said, “Is there 2,000?” He said, “You may put it down at that.” He has also a House on the Kororarika, and
Land, let at 10l. or 201. per Annum, near to my Settlement. Whether he has any Land elsewhere I do not know.
How long have the Schools been established?
    They have been established from the Time of Mr. Kendall, conducted in the native Language; consequently of course the Language has been obliged to be made a new one almost.
​How long is it since the Missionary Schools have been established?
    From the earliest Settlement, soon after 1814. I think the Missionaries were there One or Two Years before they could do any thing.
Have you met with any of the Children that had been educated at those Schools?
    Yes, many.
Did they retain any Recollection of their Education? Were they Christians?
    I should say decidedly not. But I would not speak respecting the Church Missionaries; I will mention the Wesleyans. When I went there in 1837 I was astonished to see the Difference of the Natives, entirely owing to the Influence of the Missionaries.
When you say Difference, do you mean that they had become Christians?
    No, I do not, but I found a favourable Difference. A Christian is a different Character altogether. Men who were formerly Savages, dancing the War Dance, were become humble and meek in their Manners. It is a Deceit, perhaps, but it is of invaluable Benefit; the Children will imitate the Manners of their Parents, and leave off their former boisterous Demeanour.
Did you see any thing like a Christian Congregation among the Natives?
    Yes; I have heard them some Hundred Times say their Prayers over.
Do not you account for the Difference on the West Coast and on the other Coasts by the Circumstance that there are fewer of the European Population on the West than on the East Coast?
    There is less Shipping. There are as many Europeans in Hokianga, in which the Wesleyans reside, as in the Bay of Islands.
Are there as many bad Men on the West Coast as on the East?
    I consider that there are as many; but the Whalers do not come there. There may be about Twelve Vessels per Annum at Hokianga, The Quantity of Shipping in the Bay of Islands may amount to 130.
Do you find that the Venereal Disease exists as much in the Parts which are far from the Bay of Islands as there?
    I should think the Venereal Disease would be equally spread in all Parts; it was brought by the Shipping. The Natives are great Travellers; they go away for a Twelvemonth and return.
You do not find that the greater Portion of the Women are infected by it?
    No, decidedly not; in the Bay of Islands or Cloudy Bay. It is less virulent in New Zealand than in Europe; they have a Mode of Steaming which we have not in Europe.
Are the Natives addicted to intoxicating Liquors?
    They are exceedingly given to them.
Do you find them equally so away from the British Settlements?
    Equally; but they cannot get them away from the British Settlements.
Do you believe that the Depopulation has been general throughout the Island from that Circumstance?
    Yes. It was in consequence of the Wars from 1821 to 1830. Those Years did more against New Zealand than a Hundred Years before, or more than a Hundred Years can do again.
Do you know the Number of Schools established?
    No, I do not; but they are solely in the native Language. I do not think the Missionaries themselves can give a very good Idea how many Scholars they have there; they are taken away and brought back continually; and some of them are Women taken to the Ships.
When you say you saw a great Improvement in the Character of the People, is that near the Wesleyan Settlement principally?
    Decidedly; within their Influence or Vicinity.
Are you acquainted with any other Europeans than English settled there?
    I had a French Servant; there was also a Prussian Resident, who died. The ​Natives dislike the French; and if the English did not colonize the Country they would not admit any other Nation to colonize them.
Do you mean that they can distinguish between English and Americans?
    Yes.
And they prefer the English?
    Yes.
Did you ever see a Spaniard or Portuguese, or Brazilian there?
    I have seen no Natives of South America, to my Knowledge.
Did you ever hear of a Brazilian, or Portuguese, or Spanish Vessel having come in there?
    No; there have been no Foreign Vessels, other than the French on Discovery.
Do you believe that if the Spaniards or Portuguese were to send Vessels there they could ship Cargoes of Slaves from those Islands?
    They might take them by Treachery or Force.
Might they take them as Articles of Merchandize from the Chiefs?
    No. I have purchased Slaves myself; Boys whom I liked for their quiet Conduct; but that would not hold good. The Natives among one another purchase Slaves; but from Europeans the Slaves run away, and go back to their Master, who not only inveigles them, but protects them. The Price I paid Five Years ago was a Musket.
Suppose you went there, could you purchase Slaves?
    I could not purchase them for a Cargo, or any thing of the Kind; it was with Difficulty I could get a single Slave.
Is your Land cultivated by free Men or Slaves?
    Those I have had have been principal Chiefs, and also Slaves. Sometimes the Master has made an Agreement that I should give himself a Blanket, and the Slave some Victuals.
There is very little Difference, in their Remuneration, between a free Man and a Slave?
    Very little, between the greatest Chief and the most abject Fellow. Reckoning himself as a Chief, perhaps one would say, “You must give me something more; I am a Chief.”
The Slave, when he goes back, is again a Slave?
    Yes. The Master can take him back during his Time of Labour, and often does.
Have you found them clever as Artisans?
    Exceedingly.
Have you used them as Carpenters and Coopers?
    I have used them to help my Cooper; I have used them to build my Wooden Houses, and as Gardeners. As Farm Servants they are admirable.
Are they clever?
    Yes; with just the Headpiece of Europeans, and just that Tact of doing any thing; the most imitating People in the World.
When a Slave comes to work for you does he expect you to give him any Information; does he consider himself an Apprentice?
    Not the slightest. If he likes any thing he says, “I will imitate this.” I have been fond of drawing; they have immediately imitated my Sketches; taking a Coal from the Fire they make not a bad Imitation.
They make native Canoes?
    Yes. They build the largest principally in Hawke's Bay; and in the Bay of Islands they are generally inferior.
Do they attempt to build larger Vessels?
    No. There are Districts of clever Men, such as at the East Cape; they make handsome Mats, and in carving they are peculiarly clever. As a Race of People they are totally different; they are Black, and their Courage is accounted ​below Par. All the other Natives say that any one of them can beat Natives of the East Cape.
Have they never expressed a Wish to imitate the building of European Vessels?
    No; but they have bought them. One especially I remember being in the War at Tauranga. Pomareé had the Use of one to himself. He went a Distance perhaps of 120 Miles on a Coast where I have felt Four different Gales of Wind from every Quarter of the Compass in a single Trip; so that they were not fearful, but able to take Command.
If they were so intelligent, do you see any Reason why they should not become a Marine Population?
    Why should they not? Look at the Number there are in the Whale Ships, and who get a good Lay, as the Remuneration is termed, unless they get an unworthy Captain; if they get a good Captain they do very well. There are many employed by the Americans as well as by us; many are Boat Steerers in the American Vessels.
You spoke of one who was a Mate?
    Yes; Mr. Bailey, who lives on the Bay of Islands; he was chief Officer, with the same Lay as any other chief Officer out of Sydney. The Vessel is called the Earl of Stanhope of London. She may be Three hundred Tons. She belongs to the House of Thomas Walker and Company. He is from before the Mast, and went through the several Grades, of Boat Steerer and so on , till he became Mate , and would have been Captain but for his being a Foreigner.
Did you ever discover, in talking to the Natives, that they had any History or Tradition?
    Yes.
Does that go far back?
    It is merely by Notation; they cannot go far back, because they have not the Opportunity of Language.
Did they ever seem to think that they had been an united People?
    No; they said they came from a Land afar off. Each District has a different Tradition. In the Bay of Plenty they say that a Canoe came from a distant Place and arrived at a River still called Auwoa o te Atua, or Gods River; that they were supplied with the Kumera; that is, the Sweet Potatoe (Batta Convolulus). That is the Nature of their Tradition respecting the Arrival of their Ancestor; the Origin of the Tradition of the Country is mythological.
Do they seem to think they have ever been a more united People?
    I cannot say; but we are certain that they are found in the old Voyage of Shouten and Le Maire in 1614. Le Maire was the first Man who wrote on their Philology, and we find he gives a Specimen of the Languages of Solomon Island in those Days, the Louisiades, New Guinea, New Ireland, and some other Parts, in which the Language is exactly the same as at the present Year 1838 in New Zealand; the only Difference is, that being a Dutchman he has spelt the Words according to his Ideas, but it is equally the same; and there is less Difference in the Dialect of New Zealand within the extreme North and South of the Country than there is in the Dialect of England in Two different Counties.
Do you think any Attempt to unite different Tribes in one, and to put a Stop to their Wars, would meet with Success?
    That never can be done. Oil and Water will not amalgamate.
They visit one another?
    Yes.
During those Visits they live on good Terms?
    Yes. They will absolutely fight against their own Party in favour of the People they may reside with. Sometimes their Superstitions occasion a great many Wars; for example, if a Pig passes over a Cemetery there is a War immediately. Giving up the Pig will not renew former Amity; there must be War. If a Man happen to put his Pipe at the Top of an old Rush House ​which no Person would live in, War ensues; and Enmities arise from the most trifling Things possible. They are Children on that Subject.
Suppose Civilization to eradicate those Superstitions, do you not think the Tribes might live in Amity?
    My Opinion is, they will be annihilated before that is done; the only Method I can think of, is Europeans giving them Employment, and keeping them apart.
Would they not remember their old Feuds then?
    No. Colonization would annihilate a great deal of that on the Part of the New Zealanders. If they eat at the Table of Europeans, and mix with them, they easily adopt the civilized Customs; and when their Minds are occupied
on the Topics Europeans will bring before them, and when they are fully employed, they will cease to recur to their old Feuds. Now, in consequence of having nothing to do, if a Chief passes over a Place in which some Conflict occurred Years ago, he is roused to Vengeance, as the Locality reminds him of former Feuds, and he sets about assembling his native Force to revenge it at once.
You state that they have the Means of curing the Venereal Disease; of what Nature is that?
    By steaming of the native Oven. It is not so virulent with them as in this Country. If a Native has a Gun-shot Wound he will recover in less than Half the Time that an European will.
You consider that Wars have depopulated the Country much, but you do not consider that Cause likely to continue in the same Ratio?
    Undoubtedly not; the Remedy has been found in the Thing itself; in the Equalization of Fire-arms.
You do not consider that from those Two Causes, War and Infanticide, the Population is likely to diminish in future?
    No. I think Infanticide will be left off; for the Women are reserved, I am sorry to say, for bad Purposes.
You say that the Church Missionary Society wish to keep the Land to themselves?
    No; they wish to keep others from the Land.
What do you suppose is their Motive for that?
    I suppose of course that it is from Religious Motives, that they wish to keep the Natives from the Europeans, that they can bring them up in the Christian Persuasion better. At the same Time, and they have seen that for Four-and-twenty Years past, there has been such an Influx of European Settlers and Visitors who are injuring the Country, that they must, I should think, begin to feel that a Government which shall repress those Excesses has become essential.
Why do you conceive that Colonization would be beneficial to the Natives; do you mean by having Commercial Factories in different Parts of the Island, or taking the territorial Possession of it?
    From the Want of Commerce the Territory is perfectly useless.
Would you confine your Colonization to Commercial Factories, or have Tracts of Land?
    I would have Tracts of Land, and let it be sold to respectable Emigrants; Persons that would be serviceable to the native People; and let Persons amenable to Her Majesty's Government reside there, and the Natives be under
their Power.
Do you mean that they are to interfere to prevent the Natives doing what they please?
    No; that they should be Guardians of the native People, and do Justice to either Nation.
​Would you make them subject to any Law?
    Yes. We should at least give them the same Laws as we have; they would easily understand those Laws. A Native inflicts Punishment at once now, and gives no Time for Repentance to the Culprit.
You state them to be very intelligent and active as Mariners and Agricultural Servants; do you believe they could not cultivate their own Land and navigate their own Seas, provided there were not Europeans, and without the Europeans taking Possession of any of their Territory?
    No; they must have Europeans, and they must be employed by Europeans; they must have civilized Persons to employ them.
If the Europeans will purchase the Produce, will not they raise it?
    Yes; but they have raised only sufficient for their daily Wants, not putting by any thing for a future Day. They have immense Tracts of Land lying useless.
They are willing to provide for themselves all that they consider necessary and useful, provided they can find a Market for their Goods?
    Yes.
Did you sign the Petition in 1836?
    Yes, it is my Signature; but there is a Mistake in One Letter of the Name.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.