# Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Friday, 6 April 1838/Joseph Barrow Montefiore

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Joseph Barrow Montefiore is called in, and examined as follows:
Have you been in New Zealand?
    I have. I made a Journal of my Proceedings while I was there.
You made a Journal of what struck you particularly while you were in the Island?
    Yes.
When did you land in New Zealand?
    I visited New Zealand in the Year 1830.
How long did you remain there?
    I was there altogether about Four Months.
Was your Object connected with Commerce?
    My Object was mercantile. I chartered a Vessel to make a Tour of the Island, and to visit every Place I possibly could, for the Purpose of becoming acquainted with the Island, its Productions, its general Character, as well as with the Habits, Manners, and general Disposition of the Natives; and I had some Intention of forming extensive mercantile Establishments throughout the Island; but, from an unfortunate Circumstance, after reaching Entry Island or Capiti (so called by the Natives), in Cook's Straits, I was deterred from so carrying my Object into execution.
What was it occurred to change your Intention?
    After visiting One or Two Places I reached Entry Island in my own Vessel, and there I boarded a Brig called the Elizabeth, Captain Stewart, who related the following Circumstance to me, that he had been down to Banks's Island with a great many of the Chiefs, and 200 Men of the Island (Entry Island), to ​revenge the Death of an old Chief, who had been Twenty-two Years ago killed by the opposite Party. The Elizabeth, a British Brig, conveyed to Banks's Island about 300 Men, and when she anchored off the Island it was made to appear there were no Men on board the Vessel; they were all below, with the Hatches down. In the Middle of the Night the Captain started the whole of the Men; and took Fifty or Sixty Prisoners. I have made a more detailed Statement of the Facts, which, with your Lordships Permission, I will relate from my Journal; they are as follow:–It must be in the Recollection of many, that a New Zealand Chief was a few Years ago in this Country, by the Name of Pai or Tupai, who was introduced to our late Soverign George the Fourth. Some short Time after his Return to his native Country he waged War against the People of Banks's Island, or the Southern Island, and was killed by the Chief of that Place, named Mara Nui. This same Man is supposed also to have killed several White Men then, and Four Years ago cut off, and ate, with his Comrades, the Boat's Crew of His Majesty's Ship Warspite. Since that Period, Ecou, old Pai's Son, has been most anxious to revenge his Father's Death, as well as the Slaughter of the White Men, and has been for a Number of Years bartering his Flax for Muskets, Powder, &c. to prepare himself in the event of accomplishing his Intention. On the Elizabeth anchoring off the Island Entry (a small Island, as will be seen in the Chart), the Ropera, that is the great General or fighting Man here, and Ecou, the Son of Pai, came on board, and told the Captain and Supercargo they had no Flax made up, which was a Fact; they said they had enough Muskets and Powder, as on the Island they could muster 2,000 Muskets; but if he would go down with his Ship, and convey 300 Men to Banks's Island to fight, and again return to Entry Island with such Prisoners as they made, they would give him Fifty Tons of Flax, Value 1,200l. The Captain and Supercargo consented. How far he was correct in so doing, or how far he was correct in hiring his Vessel as a Transport, and being instrumental in the Cause of so much Bloodshed, it is not for me to say. However, he actually entered into a regular Charterparty, and he proceeded thither with about 200 or 300 picked Men, all armed with Muskets, War Clubs, and Tomahawks. The Elizabeth is regularly armed, carrying Eight Guns, besides Two Swivels on her Tafrel, and well found in every Description of small Arms. On arriving at Banks's Island all the New Zealanders conveyed thither were stowed away in the Hold. Some of the Chiefs coming on board, seeing her Guns, were rather suspicious, and the first Question they asked was whether the Ropera and Ecou were on board; they suspected they were, and took to their Canoes; immediately after this they (the Men stowed below) all came on Deck, and took some Canoes, full of Slaves, lying alongside the Vessel, made them Prisoners, proceeded to the Shore, and commenced Battle; and Ecou himself took the great Mara Nui that killed his Father, brought him Prisoner on board the Brig, and they killed several on shore. The Description the Captain gave of their fighting was most interesting; they killed about Fifty, and took about as many Prisoners. Only One Man on Ecou's Side was killed; several wounded. The Vessel returned to Entry with the Prisoners and the Chief Mara Nui; and Captain Stewart informed me, Two or Three Days after he had been to Sea, he found several Baskets of Legs and Arms in his Hold. He made them throw them all overboard. They were to be taken to Entry Island to be roasted and eaten; it is a Custom among them. This great Mara Nui is now on board in Irons ( at Entry Island ). Having gone so far in my own Vessel, I was deterred from proceeding, in consequence of expecting that the Whites would be slaughtered. He is kept by the Captain as an Hostage, until the Charterparty is finally arranged. Ecou and Ropera had despatched about 2,000 Slaves to make Flax; and in Six Weeks from the Date of his Arrival she is to be filled as per Agreement. The Brig which I had chartered then proceeded round the Island, but I would not go myself. I was obliged to take refuge in this very Ship where this great Chief was in Irons. I expostulated with the Captain on his Conduct; he said he saw the Folly of his Conduct, but, having gone so far, he must keep him. I begged him to take him up to Sydney. In Four or Five Weeks afterwards, no Flax coming forth, the Natives not having fulfilled their Charter,–I was anxious to get up to Sydney,–I told him I was quite certain he would not get his Flax,–he set sail, but gave up the Chief Mara Nui into the Hands of his Enemies. He was given up, and I went on shore and saw the whole Process of his intended ​Sacrifice. I did not see the Man killed, but I know he was killed during the Night; and the following Morning the Widow of the great Chief who had been killed had his Entrails as a Necklace about her Neck, and his Heart was cut into several Pieces to be sent to different Tribes, Allies of the Ropera. On our Arrival at Sydney I related the Circumstances, and they tried the Captain for Murder; but there was no Evidence against him. He has since met his Death, having been washed off his Ship coming round Cape Horn; at least so I have understood.
It is stated, in the Publication of the New Zealand Association, that a Hook was fastened under his Chin, and he was kept in that State for Two or Three Days on board the Brig; is that correct?
    It is incorrect; but he was confined cruelly enough, for his Legs were in a State of Mortification. He slept in the next Room to me several Nights. I had repeated Conversations with him about the Crew of the Warspite; he denied it. He was resigned to his Fate; he knew he would be killed.
You say you had Conversations with him; in what Language?
    In his Language. I understood it sufficiently to converse with him.
During the Time you were in New Zealand had you an Opportunity of being on shore and communicating with the Natives?
    Yes. The first Harbour I landed at in the Island we entered by Chance, a Port called Kaffea on the Western Side, where very few Europeans have visited.
What is the Nature of the Country round that; what is the Soil?
    The Soil in that particular Part was generally good, and the Country bore a most beautiful Appearance; it is rather a sandy Soil near the Coast, but it is the most beautifully picturesque Country I ever visited, and far surpasses any I have ever seen, and I have been over most Parts of the World.
Is there much Cultivation going on there?
    There is a little Cultivation in the Harbour, but the Natives cultivate only sufficient for the Shipping or their own Use; but they have large Villages, I am told, in the Interior where they cultivate extensively.
In the Part you saw does there appear to be much Land capable of Cultivation?
    A great deal. I went up several Rivers, and saw about Eight or Ten small Villages; we went up as far as our Boat would allow us (drawing so much Water). We saw from 1,000 to 1,500 Acres under Cultivation; in fact, Nature has supplied them bountifully with every thing. They are the most lazy idle People I ever saw. They have the Fern Root growing there, which is their principal Food, and that is almost equal to Flour; Abundance of Pigs, Fish, and many Vegetables originally introduced by our great Cook the Navigator.
You say they are an idle People; do you think that if they were engaged to labour for Payment they would be unwilling to do so, or that they do not labour from not finding a Necessity for it?
    They do not labour because Nature has provided them so abundantly.
Have you been yourself cognizant of any Purchases of Land made by Europeans?
    I have not purchased Land myself, but when I was at Kaffea I obtained a Grant of Land from a Chief, which I have here; it is a very small Quantity: it was under a Condition that I should establish a mercantile Establishment there. I did not purchase it; it was given to me.
Are there only Natives there?
    No; there were Two or Three White Men, but I suspect they are runaway Convicts from New South Wales. We have in a very great measure lost our Character with the New Zealanders, in consequence of the very bad Character of some runaway Convicts, refractory Seamen, and others who are now residing there. I think, with the Exception of myself and some others, very few Gentlemen have ever visited the Country. There are a great many bad Characters on the Island; but they are well able to distinguish between the Gentlemen and the Individuals alluded to.
​What Ceremony took place when this Land was conveyed to you?
    The Line of Demarcation was burnt out, and that which was granted was made sacred or tabooed to me; I have no Doubt it is so now.
Did the Chief seem to understand that you contemplated a mercantile Establishment there?
    Yes, perfectly; I left a large Quantity of Trade, and I left a Trader there; they perfectly understand these Matters.
Did you go at all into the Interior?
    I did; I made several Excursions, and placed myself entirely under their Protection.
You placed Confidence in them?
    Yes, quite so; I used to give them my Fowling-piece charged.
From Kaffea Harbour to what Place did you go?
    We then intended to make for a Place called Terinaha, where there is a most beautiful Mountain, clothed almost all the Year through with Snow, standing several Thousand Feet above the Level of the Sea, but a very bad Harbour. The Captain had been there the previous Voyage, and had lost Two Cables and an Anchor; and we then made for Entry Island in Cook's Straits. The Appearance of Mount Egmont was truly splendid.
The Paper you have produced amounts to a Certificate by White Men?
    Yes, and by Mr. Arthur Kemmis; he took the Tour with me. I chartered the Ship, and took him as a Companion.
He is connected with the Crown Solicitor in Ireland?
    He is of the same Family.
The Paper is read as follows:
“Church Missionary House, 28th October 1837.
“I do hereby certify, that in my Presence a Piece of Land, about One Acre and One Half of an Acre to Two Acres in Extent, was allotted and virtually granted to Mr. Joseph Barrow Montefiore, according to the Form of granting Land in New Zealand; that is, it was made “tabu” or sacred, and the Line of Demarcation burnt out. I also certify, that the under-mentioned described Land was granted by Haboguea, a Chief, the same forming Part of his Possessions; as well as that a House or Store was to be by his Request built thereon for the Use and Purposes (jointly with the Land allotted) of the said J. Barrow Montefiore.
“Arthur Kemmis,”
“Witness, John Billing jun.”
“The above is a Sketch of the Outline of the Point on which the said Allotment has been granted, together with the Bank of the River to the Westward of it. Entering the River Wyharigig from the Westward, and steering East, the said Point is the Third on the Southern Bank, about Three Miles from the River’s Mouth. In Shape it resembles the form of a Gunner's Quoin, and is very steep, particularly facing the Channel of the River, and has a remarkable Slate-coloured sandy Appearance nearly to its Summit. On the Eastern Side of the said Point is the afore-mentioned Allotment, containing about ​about One Acre and One Half of an Acre to Two Acres. The preceding Sketch was taken from the Ship’s Deck while lying off the First Point, the Island in the Centre of Caffea Harbour, bearing North-west.
“Arthur Kemmis,”
“Witness, John Billing jun.”
When you went into the Interior with any of the Natives did you converse with them at all with reference to the Possibility of the Land being sold to Englishmen or Europeans coming there?
    I think that they are very glad to have us amongst them; but they are a People of that Description, that for every thing you take from them they expect Payment, or, as they term it, “Utu.” This was the only Instance, I do think, of their having given a Grant of Land.
Did they appear to you to be aware of the Nature of a Bargain?
    Yes, quite so; in fact so much so that at this Moment I know of a large Establishment which I once possessed; it is not under my Superintendence, because I have sold it to a Trader at Poverty Bay; he frequently gives them Credit, and it is always honestly discharged. Some Traders have large Quantities of Stores in various Parts; the Ships have come in, and endeavoured to induce them to sell the Flax ordered for other Parties; but nothing on Earth would induce them to sell it to them.
You think that they are disposed to be faithful?
    Yes; but still I think Dishonesty is rather innate.
How do you reconcile those Two Facts?
    That they were honest in those Instances from Policy; that they felt that if they did not do so they should lose the Trade of those Persons.
Did you see much of the Missionary Establishments there?
    No, I did not see any Missionaries at all.
You were in another Part of the Island?
    Yes; I was deterred from going to the Eastward for Reasons already assigned.
Did you see any Lands that were in the Possession of Europeans that had been previously bought?
    No; merely Two or Three Acres besides my own; a small Garden and a small House. But it is a notorious Fact that the Missionaries do hold very large Quantities of Land in New Zealand. I have seen Letters from them to their Friends, inviting them to come there; that they would find their most sanguine Expectations realized, describing Climate, &c. I know Two of them in New South Wales, where they have 15,000 Acres for civilizing the Aborigines; it is on the opposite Side of the River to a Farm of my own of 12,000 Acres.
Did the Natives appear to make a Distinction in speaking of Europeans who had behaved ill and those who had behaved well?
    Quite so. I received every Attention. The Chiefs made it a Practice, when I went ashore, to give up to me their whole Establishment, and to make me as comfortable as possible; they were most hospitable.
You felt perfect Security while you were with them?
    Yes; but I was not always satisfied, for I thought them rather treacherous. We visited a native Village where they had seen very little of White People; they suddenly left, and were about to haul up our Boat; a Girl came and told us they were about to murder us; we immediately left the Settlement. The next Day we landed again, but we were well armed, and they seemed to be aware we were not to be taken by Surprise, and they traded with us.
Was it a Village in which there had been much Intercourse with Eụropeans?
    I should say little or none; perhaps we were the first Europeans who had visited it.
What were the Articles of Trade you obtained from thence?
    I see in 1837, since I have been home, my Firm in Sydney, being the Agent for Parties who are cultivating in Poverty Bay large Quantities of Maize, ​Wheat, and Potatoes, trading for Flax, Pork, Hogs Lard, Whalebone, Oil, and every thing the Country abounds in; a Variety of Products which are very valuable and useful.
Does it appear to you that the Soil is adapted for the Cultivation of Wheat?
    Yes; for the finest Wheat in the World. New South Wales is not a Wheat Country; but I have seen very large plump Grain from New Zealand. New Zealand is not subject to Droughts.
Does Wheat in New South Wales bear generally a high Price?
    A very high Price. I furnished myself Part of a Contract for the Government, 20,000 Bushels, in 1836, at the Time that Starvation stared us in the Face. I undertook the Contract. I imported it from Calcutta. The Country has never been able to produce sufficient Wheat to supply the Inhabitants, and it never will. It is a very fine Country, but it is quite a pastoral one. I have always compared New Zealand, and still do so, to be just as Great Britain is to the rest of Europe, –the great Country of that Part of the World. On account of its Climate and Soil it must become an Agricultural Country. New South Wales will contain a large Population; but it will be much dispersed.
Had you any Opportunities of forming any Opinion as to the Extent of Population as compared with the Extent of Country?
    That has varied very much. I have heard many say it was 1,000,000; I have heard others say 500,000; but I think it is impossible to state the Fact.
Did it appear to be thickly or thinly peopled, according to the Extent of Surface?
    Very thickly; I have seen as many as 2,000 or 3,000 Natives together in particular Parts.
Do you mean that generally, with reference to the whole Surface of the Country throughout, it is thickly peopled?
    No; I have seen Numbers collected for particular Purposes.
The Length of the Island is 800 or 900 Miles; taking the whole Surface, is the Population large with reference to the whole Extent of Country?
    The Population is very large, for I have known them say, “Give us Two or Three Days, and we will get – such a Number, say some Thousands, together.” The Population of the Northern Island is certainly very great; the
Southern is much more thinly populated; quite a different Race of Men; they are much blacker; they are a very inferior Race of Men altogether. I had an Idea of colonizing Cloudy Bay myself.
Where is that?
    That is on the Southern Island.
What deterred you from that?
    The Circumstance of Captain Stewart having gone down to assist those Natives deterred me; I was afraid to go among them after that. I expected that they would take every Ship connected with New South Wales and Great
Britain. It was natural to expect they would be revenged on the Whites after what had occurred.
Do you think it is expedient that the Northern Island should be taken Possession of in the Name of the British Government, or not?
    I always thought that the Northern Island should be taken Possession of in the Name of the British Government; but, at the same Time, I do think it is a very gigantic Undertaking, and I think that a great many Difficulties must be encountered; but, with a humane and wise Government, such as we have, I think it might be accomplished; because I think the Natives are fully aware of our Power, and that they would be very willing, by the Purchase of their Territory, to give it up, provided they retained a Rank and Position in the Island, and were left sufficient Land for such Purposes as they might require.
Should you propose, in that Case, that any European should have the Power of purchasing Land from the Natives?
    I should think that a very good Plan, but at the same Time I think it ought to be done in a Manner cognizable only by a Government. I think the Natives ​have suffered very much in consequence of the bad Characters among them to whom they have sold Land; they are no doubt now sorry, not knowing what they had given away.
Can you state the Quantity of Land which has been sold, and is now the Property of Europeans, in the Northern Island?
    No, I cannot. It is a very notorious Fact that a very large Proportion of Northern Island belongs to Europeans, a great deal at Hokianga, Bay of Islands, and about the River Thames, Turangai, Wykatti, as well as in several other Parts.
It has been purchased for a few Blankets and a few Axes, perhaps?
    I should say hardly for any Value; a few Muskets, Blankets, &c.
If the Chiefs progress in Civilization will not they become aware that they have been cheated by the Persons who first went into that Country and purchased those Lands?
    I think they will be aware that they had made very bad Bargains, but I think they will hold to their Bargains, when once arranged, as being quite sacred.
Do you think, if you were to purchase 3,000 Acres in the Northern Island, and come home to England, and stay for Three or Four Years, they would allow you, on going back, to take Possession of that Land?
    Yes, I do.
Have you ever heard of a Case to the contrary?
    No. I should say that in the Case of that Land I possess, though only a Gift, it is to be considered as mine for ever.
If you permitted Persons to purchase Land you would afford Security to the Natives to prevent their selling a certain Part which they might require for their own Use?
    Most decidedly. I think that Europeans should not take that Land from them; in fact they would never consent to it.
Do you think they would become Agriculturists?
    Certainly; they cultivate uncommonly well now; they fence in their Land, and cultivate with much Regularity; their Potatoes are cultivated better than by many of our Settlers in New South Wales.
Do you think it would be very easy to keep the Population in the Northern Island in any thing like good Order?
    By taking Possession of the Island it would; but there being no Laws, we scarcely know Half the Atrocities which take place now.
Would not an armed Force be required to carry the Laws into execution?
    Yes.
Nothing can be worse than the State of Society in the Bay of Islands?
    I understand it is as bad as it can be; it consists of Persons who have run away from Sydney in Debt, Convicts, and very bad Characters who have left Whaling Vessels, and the worst of Characters that can be.
Did you sign a Petition to the King respecting New Zealand?
    No, I did not; that is a Relation of mine. I visited New Zealand quite on a Tour of Pleasure; I chartered a Ship, and intended going round the Islands; I have large Establishments in New South Wales and the other Australasian Colonies.
Did you visit any Schools connected with the Missionaries?
    No; I did not go to that Part of the Island where the Missionaries are established.
You saw no Missionary while you were there?
    No.
Were the Natives you saw most of them Heathens or Christians?
    I should think they were Heathens; but they are such a fine intelligent Race of People, and susceptible of high intellectual Attainments, any thing could be made of them. I have had them down in the Cabin of the Ship, and shown them ​a Chart of the World, and after Two or Three Days they have told me, that is New Zealand, that is England, that is South America, that is New South Wales; they are very quick. They build very fine Canoes. They frequently cross over from the Northern Island to the Southern Island across Cook's Straits, and they will for some Days study the Appearances of the celestial Hemisphere before they venture.
It is only from public Report you know that the Missionaries have purchased large Tracts of Land?
    Yes; it is only from public Report; but still we are so near, at New South Wales, it is so notorious, that I think it must be true that they possess very large Tracts of Land.
Have you never heard that their Labours had been very useful in New Zealand?
    No, I never have, of their being very useful, though they may have done some Good.
Do you not believe that they have done a great deal in making a great many of the Natives Christians?
    I believe they have; I think they have done some Good in civilizing the New Zealander, at the same Time enriching themselves. I am very anxious to see the New Zealander civilized.
Are you aware whether there are any Missionaries in that Country from Roman Catholics?
    I do not think there are any whatever. Some of the Natives do make a little Fun of the Missionaries; but I think certainly they have done some Good.
Are they not generally respected by the Natives of the Country?
    I think they are. I have seen some of them come up to New South Wales; the Natives appear to pay great Respect to them.
Where did you go first?
    I went first to Kaffea Harbour on the West Side, just off Gannet Island.
How many Days did it take to go from Sydney?
    I think we were about Seven Days; we had strong Westerly Winds.
The Wesleyan Missionaries are more on that Side of the Island than the other, are they not?
    They are; there are a great many at Hokianga, and I have no Doubt there are Rivers in Kaffea Harbour that join the Hokianga.
Is the Timber that they use for Canoes likely to be a valuable Export?
    For Spars and Masts of Ships. We have built Ships of it at New South Wales; but it is too light and soft. It is fit for Spars and Masts of Ships, and so on. It is used for Flooring-boards; but it engenders the White Ant.
You say that the New Zealander has a great deal of Acuteness in respect of bargaining; how do you reconcile that with their having sold their Land at so small a Price?
    I think they have not known the Value of their Land.
Were the Natives you saw frequently engaged in Wars?
    War appears to be the Profession of the whole of the New Zealanders.
They are Cannibals, are they not?
    I do not think they are amongst themselves, but that they eat their Prisoners. They do not like Flesh. They told me they did not eat even their Pigs. They are very large; they never eat them except to celebrate a Victory. They keep them for the Purposes of Trade; they are very fond of Trade.
Have they fixed Habitations; regular Villages or small Towns?
    Yes.
They are not Wanderers?
    No; their Lands and their different Counties and Districts are as well known among them, in my Opinion, as our Counties are in this Country.
​Do they employ themselves in hunting?
    Fishing, shooting, and a great deal in Sleep; they are very lazy.
Have they any Course of Trade with Europeans?
    Yes; those that I saw I traded with them myself to a considerable Extent, and have Friends doing so now.
Do you know what is necessary to legalize a Sale by a Chief; is it only in the Breast of the Chief?
    The entire Disposal of it belongs to him, but there are many subordinate Chiefs, like the Families of large Landed Proprietors in this Country; they each have their small Estates.
Did you ever know a Case in which an European had bought Land from a Native, and that immediately afterwards he parted with it to an European, before he had made any Improvements in the Land?
    No, never.
Is it the Practice of one Chief to sell to another Chief?
    I should doubt that; I should not think it was.
What is the Title by which they hold their Lands; is it that there is one Chief who has a certain Number of Chieftains belonging to his Tribe?
    Yes; I think that that is the Fact.
Each of those second Chieftains has Land of his own?
    Yes.
Can a second Chieftain sell without the Sanction of the head Chief of the Tribe?
    Yes, I think he can; because I think that the very Land granted to me, the Possessor was only a Third or Fourth Rate Chief in point of Rank.
Can the head Chief sell without the Consent of the subordinate Chiefs?
    I think he can, and that the others can accept without the Consent of the head Chief.
You do not think that the head Chief could sell the Land of the other Chiefs?
    No.
Do you think that it descends from Father to Son, as in England?
    Yes.
The Chiefs are hereditary; but it is not always the eldest Son who succeeds, is it?
    I did not go far enough into that to enable me to answer that Question. Any Person of the least Understanding can see at once the Distinction between the Chiefs and the others; they are a very fine Race of Men.
There is not the Signature of the Chief to the Grant you have put in?
    No. When I was there I thought it of no Use to have the Signature of the Chief; because how easy it is for any Man to sign it, and how is it possible afterwards to tell that the Chief did sign it; it is merely making a Man put his Signature to an Instrument he knows nothing about; and I have no Doubt One Half of the Documents which have been made out are in that State.
Do you conceive that the New Zealander, if he were going to cede his sovereign Rights over the Country, would be fully aware of the Nature of the Bargain he was making?
    I think he would.
In the Bargains they have made heretofore, do you suppose they have made any Bargain consenting to others coercing them?
    No, I think not.
Do you think they would be satisfied with a Law that would prevent their having Five Wives if they thought fit?
    No, I think not.
​Would they be satisfied with a Law which should prevent their going to war without the Governor's Leave?
    I do not think that they would be; but in New Holland the Natives go to war, but the Government never interferes with them; we think it very bad Policy to do so; but we let them, fight their own Battles. We have had occasional Conflicts near the Town; I think the Governors have generally thought it best to leave them alone. There are not many killed; they fight with their Waddas.
When they sell Land do they not generally either make it a Condition of Sale, or expect, as a matter of course, that they should have the working of the Land?
    I am not aware.
Are the Harbours generally good on the Western Coast?
    No; they are generally all Bar Harbours, in consequence of the Westerly Winds which prevail Nine Months out of the Year. Caffia Harbour is a Bar Harbour, about Sixteen Feet over the Bar.
In the Progress of Colonization a great deal of Wheat would be sent to Australia from New Zealand?
    Yes, there is a great deal now shipped. I see from some of my Letters we had last Year several Thousand Bushels of Maize from Poverty Bay.
Is the Land good for Wheat?
    Yes.
Would New South Wales take nearly all which could be furnished from New Zealand?
    I think it would; we have imported a great deal from Calcutta.
Do you know whether the Settlers are increasing in the Island?
    I think they are.
Does the Acquisition of Land go to a great Extent?
    I think most of the Settlers who have gone there lately have been Traders; I do not think they have gone as Agriculturists.
You do not think the Acquisition of Land goes on in the same Proportion as the Facilities?
    No, I think not.
You state that the Character of the Natives of the Southern Islands was different from that of the Natives in the Northern; that they are less intelligent?
    I think they are; but perhaps that may arise from their Non-intercourse with Europeans.
Do you think they would be less capable of understanding the Nature of any Bargain they made for the Sale of their Lands?
    I do not think they would understand the Thing so well as the People in the Northern Island, but they might be brought to understand it. They are not void of Intelligence, but they are by far an inferior Race, in Appearance and Intelligence, to the Men of the Northern Island. Those Men in the Northern Island are a light Yellow Copper Colour, fine tall Race of Men, very intelligent; those on the South Island are darker and shorter.
Are the Capabilities for a Colonization by Europeans as great as in the Northern Island?
    The Northern Part of the Southern Island I should say is very good, but not the Southern Part of the Southern Island; I should think that was very bleak and cold, and not fit for settling; it is a very mountainous Country; a Range of Mountains runs through the whole Island.
The People are not apparently the same Race?
    No.
Are they similar in their Habits?
    Yes.
​And in their social System and domestic Government?
    Yes, much the same; they are of the same Class decidedly; they mix together much, meeting frequently; those on the Northern Island fighting with those on the Southern; they mix together and make Prisoners.
They intermarry?
    Yes, in some Instances, I believe they do.
Had you any Communication with the Natives with respect to the Transfer of the Sovereignty of the Country to a Foreign Power?
    Never.
Would they understand what was the Meaning of an entirely new Government being established over the whole Face of the Country?
    Yes, I think they would; though at the same Time I think it would be a difficult Point to get them to accede immediately to such a Proposal.
You think they would require a greater Inducement than a few Blankets?
    Oh yes; if that were the Proposal it would require a much greater Inducement. I think they have already found out the Folly of their having sold the Portion of Land they have sold.
What Inducement do you think would be sufficient to bring them to give up their Independence?
    I think calling the Chiefs together, and making them a Compensation; proposing Terms such as the Goverment might think were equitable.
Might they not be informed what their Condition would be, that of subordinate Chiefs, in case of such Sovereignty being established?
    Yes, certainly.
Have they suffered enough from the Europeans settled among them to make it desirable for them to be transferred?
    No; I do not think they have suffered in so very great a Degree as to wish it, but still I think they would be glad to get it. There are very few, except at the Bay of Islands One, and Two and Three here and there.
In those Places where the Settlers are so thinly scattered, supposing any Question arose between such a Settler and a Native, would the Settler have recourse to the native Authorities for the Purpose of settling their Disputes?
    I do not think he would.
How would it be settled?
    He would deliver up his Right to his Land rather than allow them to go to war.
The Settler would do that?
    Yes.
Suppose any Question to arise of Difference between a Settler and the Natives, how would that be settled?
    The Settler would have no Power; he would be obliged to succumb to the Desire of the Natives; he possesses no Power.
The Power he possesses now is less than the Power which the New Zealander possesses?
    Certainly; the White Man possesses no Power at all, for if the New Zealanders chose they could annihilate the whole of the Europeans in One Day. They are People who have great Courage.
Do the Chiefs exercise any sovereign Authority in the Administration of Justice, in their Fashion?
    Yes, I think they do.
Are they tenacious of the Possession of that Power?
    I think they like to keep it to themselves as far as they possibly can.
Is there any common or general Authority, or are the Chieftains supreme within their respective Districts?
    I have heard them and seen them sit together and form a Council of War; ​the Chiefs on that particular Side appeared to collect together, and to form a Council as to what they were to do, and so on.
That is a Council composed of several Chiefs?
    Yes.
Does there appear to be any general or supreme Authority in the Island–over all the Island?
    No, none at all; I should think the Chiefs of one District hardly knew the Chiefs of another; they might by Name.
Have they any settled System of Law by which Offences are defined and punished?
    No; they just beat the Slave as they think proper. I do not think they have any Laws whatever.
Are they a Population of Slaves, except the Chiefs?
    I think they are. In fact if the Spaniards and Portuguese had known as much as I know they might have purchased any Quantity they pleased, and taken them to South America, for I know they will sell their Slaves.
Is there any Principle or System of Law by which a Dispute would be settled?
    None whatever, except by Force between themselves, as far as I could learn. I endeavoured to go into the Character of the New Zealanders; but I know that they will sell their Slaves, because they entreated me to purchase, and offered a Slave for a Musket frequently.
Who are their Slaves; Men taken in War?
    Yes.
Not Part of their own Clans?
    Yes; Part of their own Clans sometimes.
What Part of their Clan are their Slaves?
    I could get as far as that their Slaves have been generally Prisoners taken from different Tribes in their different Wars.
Are the Children of Slaves all Slaves also?
    Yes.
Are they ever emancipated?
    I do not think they ever are.
Does the Chief ever marry a Slave?
    No; they uphold their Aristocracy.
They only marry among each other?
    Yes. I am certain that if the Settlers in South America had known it, they might have got Cargoes of Slaves there, they are so fond of Trade, and so fond of arming themselves with Power to fight one against another, that they frequently would sell their Slaves for Muskets.
Is the Population sufficiently numerous to afford any permanent Supply of Slaves?
    I should say that the Population is immense; they appeared very prolific.
Did you ever hear that any great Depopulation of the Natives had been going on during the last few Years?
    I do not think there are many Diseases among them; it is only their Wars have depopulated them: it is a very beautiful Climate.
Did you never hear that the Population was very much affected by the Venereal Disease?
    Never; I dare say they have had Europeans going down and giving it them. They have certain Customs among them in which some of the Traders assist them. If a Ship goes down there they take their Women Slaves on board; they, the Europeans, take them for the Advantage of the Ship; they are considered to protect the Ship; every Man down to the Captain has his One, Two, or Three Women.
​You do not believe that the Depopulation among the Natives goes on so rapidly that within the last Thirty Years whole Districts have become almost depopulated?
    I should doubt that.
Do you mean that no Spanish or Portuguese Vessel has gone to that Island?
    No, they have no general Knowledge of the Place; occasionally a French Man of War has gone there, and the Americans have some Knowledge of the Place.
Do you not think that the Americans having gone there, and having a Facility to get Slaves, would make it known?
    It is a Distance from their Country; there are no American Settlements belonging to North America on the West Side of South America.
Do you think the Difference of the Voyage between the North American Settlements and the South would make a Difference in that respect?
    Yes; for the Track of a Vessel bound to the West Indies or the North American Settlements would be so conspicuous they would be sure to meet with a British Man of War; but running to the Coast of South America they would not have the Danger of meeting with a British Vessel; they might take them to Chili and Peru, and Places on the Western Coast.
Was the Slave Population much greater than the free?
    Yes; the Population of the Slaves was immense.
Are they hardly treated?
    They are, by the Chiefs; I think they frequently kill them.
Is that the Case with the Slaves employed in Agriculture?
    Yes.
The free Men do not work at all?
    No; I think all the Chiefs go to fight.
Do you conceive the Chiefs would be very well pleased to find out that the Sovereignty of these Islands being taken by Great Britain would instantly free every Slave in them?
    I do not think they would be pleased; but I think, if this Country were to give them Compensation, that they would be satisfied.
If you were to give them 20,000,000l.?
    No; it would not require Millions, nor many Thousands. Their Love of Trade and Barter, and possessing some of the Luxuries of Life, now is so great, I think they would give them up for a fair Compensation. We none of us like to give up our Property without some Return.
You did not visit that part of the Island in which the Missionaries are settled?
    I did not.
You are not much acquainted with the State of the Population there, whether they are infected with Diseases?
    No; but they are, I should think, in a very bad State, in consequence of the Interference of the runaway Convicts and Sailors; there is a great deal of Drunkenness and Dissipation there.
You did not see much of the Natives who are resident in that part of the Island?
    I did not. I had One or Two of the Natives in Sydney in my own House, well-behaved Men, but not from that Part of the Island; I should hardly trust them, expecting they have contracted the bad Habits of a great Portion of Individuals who frequent the Bay of Islands.
By whom was the Maize you imported from Poverty Bay cultivated?
    By the Natives.
You know that the Land on which it was grown was cultivated by Natives?
    Yes; we are Agents for the Person who is now carrying on such Cultivation. I have no Doubt he possesses a very large Territory there.
​He is an Englishman settled there?
    Yes. He consigns to us his Shipments of Maize, Flax, Whalebone, & c.
Does he cultivate his Land by Slaves?
    No doubt of it, and from his high Connexions can command as many as he pleases. He has married a Chief's Daughter, or perhaps the Daughters of Two or Three Chiefs; and when they go to war, or have their Tumults among themselves, they lock him up in a Fort and make him a Neutral till they decide their Quarrels; then they bring him back to his old Station.
Does he find that he can get his Land cultivated?
    Yes, to any Extent.
There is no Indisposition on the Part of the Natives to work for a Compensation?
    No, I think not.
There would be no Necessity to send Europeans to cultivate the Land, in order to raise Produce there?
    No, not if they can compel the Slaves there to work.
They do produce agricultural Produce without?
    Yes, they do. It is a most beautiful Country. I have visited the Brazils, the whole of Van Diemen’s Land, and New South Wales, and been on the Continent, but I never saw a Country in the World that equalled it; in Scenery, Climate, and Productiveness it is a perfect Paradise.
You state that large Quantities of Oil are imported from Cloudy Bay; what is the Sort of Oil?
    Whale Oil.
By whom is it caught?
    By the Natives; they mix in the Boats; they are very good Whalers.
Have they any Whale Boats of their own?
    No; they are employed by Europeans, by the Mercantile Establishments in New South Wales.
Do they hire themselves for Wages?
    Yes.
Is it for Money Wages?
    Those that have come over to Sydney, who enlist themselves on board a Whaler, sign Articles, and have their Pay like all the other Sailors. Every Whaler that goes out of Sydney, from the Captain down to the Apprentice, has an Interest in every thing caught on board; the Captain begins with the Twelfth, and they go to the Hundred and twentieth Part; they have no Wages.
Still, in its Result, they must be paid in Money?
    Yes.
Is the Centre of the North Island mountainous?
    The Northern is rather mountainous.
Is it too mountainous to be cultivated?
    No; there may be Ranges which cannot be cultivated, but they would do for Pasture.
In the Place where you apprehended Treachery, were you aware that the Natives had been ill-treated previously?
    No, I think not; it may have arisen from the Fact of the Attack at Banks's Island.
Had that occurred previously?
    Yes; I have no Doubt it was connected with that.
That might be done meaning to retaliate on White People?
    Yes; White People, whatever or whomsoever they were; that was of no Consequence.
​You state that the Line of Demarcation of the Land which was given you was burnt out; in what Way?
    It was first marked out by pitching Trees or small Plants, and then they set fire to them, and lying in a Train in very dry Weather it burnt quickly.
In the course of a few Years will not the Trees grow up again and obliterate that Line?
    It is fenced in by an European Trader I had, who was there for Two Years; they never molested him, but treated him in the best possible Way.
What Countryman was he?
    An Englishman.
Have you visited any of the Society Islands?
    No. I have visited almost all Australia; I was there Eight Years.
You have spoken of some of the Tribes being very numerous; do you know the Size of the largest Tribe you visited?
    No. One we visited, called the Wyccurbobo, all I learned was, that they belonged to a Place near the burning River. There is a burning River in New Zealand. I thought so highly of the Country, that when I went out to New South Wales His Majesty George the Fourth granted me 5,000 Acres of Land,– I would readily have changed it for 1,000 in New Zealand.
What was the Size of that Tribe?
    I should think some Thousands.
The Story told respecting Captain Stewart was, that he confined a Chief on board his Ship with a Hook put through the fleshy Part of his Chin; is that correct?
    It is impossible for me to say more than the Captain himself related to me; I was on board the Ship subsequently; the Story is bad enough without Aggravation. I saw the Chief; he was as fine a Man as ever I saw in my Life; had there been any Appearance of the Hook alluded to it could not have escaped my Notice.
Another Part is that the Daughter came to speak to him, and that the Sailors threw her down with so much Violence as to kill her?
    There was some Story of that Kind.
Did he appear, when you saw him, to have any Wound in his Neck?
    No, none whatever; the only Part affected was his Legs; they were in a State of Mortification. I spoke to the Captain when I went on board, saying, that as a British Subject I could not suffer him to be ironed. I would not allow him to give him up, but I could not prevent his doing as he thought fit.
The State of his Legs arose from the Irons the Captain had put upon them?
    Yes. I had them struck off; but still he was kept confined on board, being afraid of our own Lives while he was on board, after his Treatment.
You state that you think it would be better the English should have Possession of the Islands; do you mean better for the English or the Natives?
    I think it would be better for all Parties. I have seen the Savages of New Holland; they are a very unimportant Number, for they may be all put into a Basket, compared to those in New Zealand; they are Persons hardly deserving of any Trouble; they are just like so many Beasts of the Field; they come and sleep on my Land To-night, and go to another Farm To-morrow Night; they live on a few Slugs or Caterpillars, or any thing; but the New Zealanders are capable of great Attainments.
You do not think they would be willing to part with their Land or their Authority without an Equivalent?
    Decidedly not.
That Equivalent being what we should consider a valuable Consideration?
    Yes.
In our Eyes as well as theirs?
    I should think 20,000l. or 30,000l. would do the whole, by their receiving very handsome Presents; making them Presents of Ships, perhaps, to give them little Power; making them an important Body in their own Estimation.
​You have stated that you think, in common Justice, there ought to be Districts settled in perpetuity among the Natives?
    I think so.
Those Districts ought to be very considerable, for the Purposes of Justice?
    I think they should be in proportion to the Population.
New Zealand is in the Heart of the South Sea Fisheries, is it not?
    Yes, very near it; almost in the Heart.
That is a very growing Branch of Industry?
    Remarkably so.
Do not Vessels employed in that Trade put in to refit and to obtain Provisions?
    Yes, but not to repair; they are obliged to come to New South Wales to repair. If it had not been for the Fishery in that Part of the World there would have been no Oil for our Lamps this Winter.
Is it Sperm Oil?
    It is generally called Black Oil, but there is Sperm Oil.
They go as far as the Coast of Japan for Sperm Oil?
    Yes, then to Torres Straits, and all Parts of the World; they follow the Course of the Sun; Tongataboo and Otaheite, and wherever they chance to find them.
Is there any apparent Difference between the Slaves and their Masters?
    There is not in point of mixing with each other, but you can tell from their Appearance.
They are exactly the same Race?
    Yes.
There is no Difference in Intellect?
    I think the Chiefs are a superior Race of Men; there is the same Line which may be drawn in this Country between People of Education and the lower Orders.
How do you account for this, as they have no Education?
    I do not know how to account for it, but they do appear a very superior Race to the Slaves.
Would a Chief taken in War be immediately a Slave?
    Yes. There are many tattooed who are Slaves; they do not tattoo those originally born Slaves, therefore if you see a Man tattooed, though he is a Slave, it is clear he has been once a Chief.
Did you ever hear of any Rebellions of the Slaves?
    No; they keep them down, and make them work very hard.
And yet the Slaves are very numerous?
    Yes.
It is stated that among the Enormities which have been committed by the British Settlers there, on some Occasion they gave Money to the Chiefs to kill their Slaves for the Purpose of selling their tattooed Heads?
    I would almost believe any thing which is related. I know Captains of such very bad Characters go there I should be ready to believe any thing which was related; they have come at Night alongside the Ship with the Heads with a Bit of Candle in them. I never trusted myself on shore at Night at Entry Island.
You do not know whether the Story about the Captain of a Vessel having given a Chief Corrosive Sublimate by way of poisoning another Tribe was true or not?
    I should believe any thing. I know some of the Captains who have been there have been Men who would be guilty of any thing; and in a Country where there are no Laws we know what Human Nature is; some Men do not care what they do.
​There is a British Resident now in the Island'; suppose he had Power given him to apprehend Criminals, and a sufficient Force to support his Authority, do you think that would diminish those Offences?
    That would answer a good Purpose as it respects the Bay of Islands, but there is so large a District of Country, he could not know what was going on in Cloudy Bay or Rangitoto or other Places.
Suppose he had Two or Three small Vessels, which might go from Port to Port, to apprehend and arrest Criminals, and bring them to Trial?
    I think then it might be done.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.