# Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Friday, 6 April 1838/Charles Enderby

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Charles Enderby Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:
You are of the Firm of Charles, Henry, and George Enderby?
    I am.
Your House has been for many Years concerned in the South Whale Fishery ?
    It has; my Father established the Fishery in this Country in the Year 1775, having previously carried it on through our Agents in the United States.
Have you many Ships in your Trade?
    We have not so many as we had; we still have a good many.
Have you been accustomed to have a good deal of Communication with New Zealand?
    A good deal from the Year 1794.
Was that the first Time that Whaling Ships visited New Zealand?
    I think that was the first Time that they visited New Zealand.
Do they carry on the Fishing on the Coasts of New Zealand?
    They do.
Do they go there at all for the Purpose of obtaining Supplies of any kind?
    Refreshments, and occasionally a Supply of Stores; Timber for Masts, or any thing of that Kind.
Spars?
    Yes.
The Timber that grows there is good for Spars?
    Very good; we have seen some remarkably good.
Have you ever mixed any New Zealanders with the Crews of those Ships?
    We have; and have some at the present Time.
What is the Character your Captains give of them?
    Generally steady good Seamen.
What do you consider the average Duration of a Voyage from hence to New Zealand and back; how long would it take to get a Communication?
    About Four Months out and Four Months home.
Do they usually return by the same Course they go out?
    The Trading Vessels generally return by Cape Horn.
What Sort of Characters do the Captains report of the New Zealanders as to their general Conduct and Behaviour?
    We find the New Zealanders in our Service behave much better than the British Seamen; we have invariably found them well-behaved good Seamen. I am sorry I cannot say the same of the British in all Cases.
Have any Persons in your Establishment become Settlers in New Zealand?
    Not One.
What are the Productions of the Island, so far as you are acquainted with them?
    Timber and New Zealand Flax.' The Fishery may be carried on there; I do not know whether that can be called a Production of New Zealand. ​Has the New Zealand Flax been within your Knowledge used for Cordage?
    It has; we have used it of our own Manufacture, and we use it now. It is brought over in a very rough State. It has not been generally introduced from its having been imported in a very indifferent State. This is the State in which it comes over (producing a Sample).
Is it not like ordinary Flax?
    No, it is not; it is the Phormium Tenax.
You say you have manufactured it; to what Purposes have you applied it?
    For Rope. It has been manufactured in a Variety of different Ways; it has been manufactured with Tar alone. The Fibre is naturally a very harsh and hard Fibre; with Tar it is still harder. It has been manufactured with a Species of Caoutchouc or Indian Rubber; when immersed in Water the Caoutchouc separates from it and floats at the Top; the Fibre is no longer protected. We have combined a Composition of Caoutchouc with the Tar, and find that answer; but there has been a great Prejudice against the Flax in consequence of its having been badly prepared.
It retains a Sort of Brittleness?
    It does if prepared in a particular Way.
Did you ever try it with Kyan's Patent?
    No, I have not. We use it for Whale Lines; we prefer it for Whale Lines to any other Description of Rope, and the Whale Lines are the most important Lines we have in our Vessel. A whole Scool of Whales may be lost by the parting of a Whale Line; Property to the Amount of 2,000l. or 3,000l. may depend perhaps on a Whale Line.
Do you consider that the Trade in New Zealand might be increased to any considerable Extent if there was more of Order and legal Government established?
    I feel satisfied that it might be.
Have any of your Ships ever brought home other Produce; any Corn?
    Not any. They have obtained Provisions there; Pork and Potatoes.
Are there Cattle there?
    They have a few Cattle.
They cannot get supplied with Salt Beef?
    No. The Missionaries, I think, have a few Cattle; and one of the Natives, I understand, has some Cattle.
Have they the common English Potato or the Sweet Potato?
    The Sweet Potato. I am not aware that they have any other Potato.
Are the Harbours of New Zealand many?
    They are very extensive and very numerous.
Are they adapted or likely to become the Scene of piratical Enterprise if no Law is established there?
    We have every Reason to fear they will; the Whaling Vessels are so well suited for that Purpose, to be converted into piratical Vessels; the Nature of the Crews likewise, from their disorderly and unmanageable Description; they are almost always in a State of Mutiny when they go into Harbour.
What Temptation will any one have to convert a Whaler into a piratical Vessel there?
    The great Chance they would have of capturing Vessels from and to New South Wales.
The great Chance would be of capturing Vessels at Sea; but not of plundering the Inhabitants of New Zealand?
    I do not infer that they would plunder the Inhabitants of New Zealand; but almost every Time a Vessel goes into Port, not only in the Bay of Islands but in various other parts of the World, the Men go on shore and get into a State of Drunkenness in the numerous Liquor Shops established by Men who have quitted other Ships, and who incite the Crews to mutiny; then, from the Circum​stance of the Ships being doubly manned, they would have no Difficulty in finding a sufficient Crew for converting them into piratical Vessels.
From the Distance at which the Operations are carried on you have very little Control over them?
    Very little indeed.
The Injuries the Men you refer to do to the Crews of the Vessels are from the accidental Rencontres with them on their putting in for Shelter or Provisions?
    Yes.
Have you any Means of knowing what is the State of the Population on shore in those Parts where the Missionaries are settled?
    I do not know, except from mere vague Reports, which are very contradictory in themselves.
You say that the New Zealanders are mixed with the Crews in your Ships sometimes; have any of them ever come home to this Country?
    We had Two at home about Six Months ago.
Had you any Opportunity of conversing with them?
    Yes; a good deal.
Was the Subject ever discussed as to the Chance of Europeans settling there in larger Numbers?
    Ï have conversed with them upon the Subject, and they have always expressed themselves favourable to it.
Are there any in London now?
    I have made some Inquiry. I understand there are some, but I have not been able to get hold of them. They are frequently neglected; when they come here the Ship Owners do not always take proper Care of them; they are
allowed to wander about. There is a Chief here.
Have any Gentlemen connected with your Firm become Purchasers of Land in New Zealand?
    Not any.
New Zealand Flax does not fetch so good a Price as other Flax, does it?
    I think it does not; the greater Part we have purchased, and we have purchased extensively, varied from 17l. to 24l. per Ton.
Captain Harris of the Navy was one of the Persons that took great Interest in attempting to bring it into Use in the Navy, was he not?
    Yes; it was at his Instance we first commenced Rope-making, using that Flax.
Are you aware whether there is a Report of the Admiralty against New Zealand Flax being made into Rope?
    I know they do not use it, and I believe they have complained of it in the Navy.
They do use Part of it in Mats, do they not?
    I am not aware, but I understood a short Time ago that some of the Flax which had not been manufactured was offered for Sale.
Should you, as a Ship Owner, object to a Tax being imposed on any Ship which went into the Harbour of New Zealand, for the Purpose of paying for the due Administration of the Laws?
    I should not object to it if it was not very heavy; I doubt whether it would be prudent to lay Port Charges on Vessels, for I am afraid that the Whaling Vessels would be driven to commit those Excesses in other Islands which are now committed in New Zealand.
Are there any Pirates now in New Zealand?
    No. Several Vessels have been run away with by the Crews, of which we have not since heard, but we have no Reason to know that they have been used as Pirates.
It is too true that a good many of the Crews in those Whale Ships are Men of very bad Character?
    Of very bad Character. With respect to Youths who enter the Service, many ​may have misconducted themselves; their Parents, exceedingly respectable, perhaps, are in the habit of applying to the Captains in the Whale Fishery to take them a Whaling Voyage, being the longest Voyage they can send young Men on, to break off improper Connexions; they may have found those, mixing with Sailors of bad Character, are not improved. These are the Class of Men who are settled at New Zealand and the South Sea Islands.
The Men with whom you had the Conversation you have referred to with respect to a larger Number of Europeans settling there, were only in the Situation of private Sailors?
    Only private Sailors.
Had they been Slaves or free Men?
    They had been Slaves. From the Inquiries I have made, I have ascertained that though a Man who is captured is a Slave his Children are not Slaves.
Is it from good Authority you know that if a Man is captured in War he is a Slave, but his Children are not Slaves?
    I have just ascertained it from the New Zealand Chief in the other Room.
Do you know how your Captains of Ships induced those Men to come on board?
    By the Offer of giving them Blankets and Clothing for a certain Time of Servitude.
Is the Bargain then with the individual Slave or the Master of the Slave?
    I believe with the Master, but I am not quite clear; in some Instances with the Man himself, where he is free, but I cannot answer with regard to the Slave. Each of those Men on his Return took a double-barrelled Fowling piece as a Present to his Master; that was his own doing; not the Act of the Captain.
Those Men are gone back?
    Yes; they went some Months ago. They expressed their Determination to return; not to reside in New Zealand.
Were they Christians?
    They were; they expressed themselves to be so.
Do they live as moral and correct a Life as Men of the same Class in this Country?
    I should say more so; I had a great many Opportunities of seeing them; they separated from the Crews of the Vessels as soon as they came home, and they conducted themselves, during the Three Months they remained here, as well as any Men could possibly do.
Did they speak with Gratitude of the Exertions of Missionaries in New Zealand, or the contrary?
    I have met with some Instances where they have spoken with Gratitude; but the Two Men whom I allude to expressed some Doubt or some Feeling as to the Missionaries setting about to teach them, and not instructing their own Countrymen, the Sailors of Ships which go out. In fact they have advised in many Instances the Natives not to associate with the Crews of the Ships; to avoid them; and the Two last Men expressed some Feeling upon that Subject. They thought that the Missionaries should take more Notice of their own Countrymen.
Do any of the Natives you have on board your Vessel rise above the common Seamen?
    No, not any in our Vessels.
They are perfectly capable?
    I should imagine so; I do not know whether they would be qualified for the Situation of Mates. Some of them can read and write a little.
Their Intelligence is sufficient?
    Perfectly sufficient; I am certain of that.
​Do they show any Wish to make Progress?
    Yes; and when on shore they are exceedingly inquisitive, examining into any thing
What aged Men were those Two Men?
    One about Twenty-two, the other about Twenty-seven, I should think.
Did they leave any Families behind them?
    No; they were both single Men.
They went back as Seamen?
    Yes, they did. They had been on board about Two Years. Those Men had a good deal of Money to receive; each Man received from Forty to Fifty Pounds when he went away.
In what did they expend it?
    In Clothing and in Fowling-pieces. One of the Articles I saw, which I thought they had better have left, was Watches; they did not know the Time by them after they had purchased them.
Did they go back as free Men to their own Country?
    No; they went back still Slaves.
Did they expect to be left in Possession of the Things they had got?
    Yes; they thought the Present of a Fowling-piece from each to their Chiefs would satisfy them.
You spoke of Piracies likely to be committed in some of the Harbours of New Zealand; do the outward Vessels coming from Australia and Van Diemen's Land pass near the Coast of New Zealand?
    Yes.
They pass into Cook's Straits?
    I believe some of them pass through Cook's Straits; but, not being concerned in the New South Wales Trade, I cannot say.
Do you conceive that the Objection to the New Zealand Flax has arisen from the Inferiority of the Article, or its having been badly prepared?
    Its having been badly prepared.
Do you conceive that it will become an Article of considerable Export?
    I have no Doubt of it; the last Year there has not been a single Bale imported into this Country.
Do you think any has been sent to any other Country?
    I think some has been sent to France, but I do not think it has been sent in any great Quantity; some has been sent from this Country to France.
The Timber of that Country is peculiarly fit for Ship Building, is it not?
    Yes.
Does our Government take any Part?
    Yes; there is now a Person there selecting some.
That is for Spars?
    Yes; it is fit for Ship Building also.
It is stated that the New Zealanders have built Vessels of British Construction; is that the Case?
    The New Zealanders in connexion with the British Settlers there.
You stated that a Tax might drive the Whalers to commit Excesses in other Places; did you refer to the Society Islands?
    I referred to the Island of Papua, New Guinea, and in fact all the Islands in the Pacific Ocean; that if heavy Charges were laid they would visit other Islands. There are a Hundred Vessels in a Year that visit the Bay of Islands now; perhaps a Tax might drive Forty or Fifty of them to other Íslands they do not now visit.
That might depend upon the Amount of the Tax?
    It would.
​The Port Charges of Chili and Peru prevent the Whalers frequently touching there, do they not?
    Yes, the Charges in some of those Ports are very high.
Are they high in Valparaiso?
    We have not had any Ships there for a great many Years.
Your Ships go in pursuit of Whales over the whole Pacific?
    Yes; from the North to the South Pole, Japan, and the Sandwich Islands, and wherever they are to be found.
What is the average Voyage?
    Three Years and Three Months; varying from Two to Four Years.
Are the New Zealanders you take on board employed for the whole of the Voyage, during the whole Period?
    Yes.
Among those so employed as Seamen have any been Chiefs?
    Yes, we have had some Chiefs.
Do you find any Difference in their Conduct?
    No, I am not aware of any.
Have any of them being employed as Harpooners?
    Yes.
That is a Station requiring great Activity?
    Yes; it requires great Courage, Activity, and Skill.
Your Ships touch at most of the Islands occasionally?
    Yes; a great Part of the Discoveries in the Pacific Ocean have been made by Whaling Ships.
Have they committed great Outrages?
    Great Outrages. There was a Village burnt in the Island of Japan. There was a Vessel of ours that went to the Friendly Islands; an Apprentice deserted; the Captain called upon the People of the Island to interfere to get him back; they refused; upon which he loaded his Guns, having Six on board, with Grape Shot, and fired on the Natives, and he afterwards landed with a Boat's Crew of his own People, who were all cut off. Only a few Months after that another Vessel went into the same Island, and was cut off as an Act of Retaliation.
It would appear that those Acts of Cruelty are as much the Fault of the Masters of the Whalers as the Crews?
    I think, generally speaking, more the Fault of the Masters than the Crews. A great many Disputes arise on shore from the Men having Connexion with the Women, and from Intoxication. That occurs at all the Islands; the Crew of
a Vessel never visits an Island without some Disturbance .
The general Cause is the Want of some local Authority?
    Yes. At some of the Islands in a savage State there is some Authority established now; in that Case these Things are repressed.
Is there at the Sandwich Islands?
    Yes.
Those are native Authorities?
    Yes.
Have they Authority by which they can repress the Disorders of Seamen without any European Authority being exerted?
    Yes.
What Part of New Zealand do your Ships visit?
    The Bay of Islands.
Do you think that if the British Resident had Power to arrest those who offended the Law that would prevent those Irregularities which occur?
    The Authority given would not be sufficient unless he had Power to enforce it.
​Suppose he had a Ship of War stationed there?
    I think that might prevent those Acts of Insubordination on the Part of British Crews; but that would not stop those of Americans, who visit it in as great Number as the British.
Can you state any other Mode which would have the Effect?
    The only Way I can think of is to colonize the Islands. There is no Union among the Chiefs; there is no supreme Authority. I believe the Natives are friendly to it.
By colonizing you mean depriving the Natives of all sovereign Authority?
    I think they are willing to yield that up; they would wish to have some Laws laid down by which they might be themselves protected; they would not be disposed to interfere with it.
You mean that the Laws should extend over the whole Island?
    Yes.
Less than that will not repress those Evils?
    I think not.
Has the Master of a Whale Ship any more Authority over his Men than the Master of any other Ship?
    No.
The whole Crew of a Whale Ship has, by some Arrangement, an Interest in the Produce?
    They have a Share in the Net Proceeds.
Have you found the New Zealand Seamen alive to their own Interests in that respect?
    Quite so.
Capable of understanding the Bargains made?
    Quite so.
Have you not the Power, when your Captain comes to England, and reports that any of the Men have been guilty of great Crimes, to punish them by stopping their Pay?
    There is a great deal of Difficulty in that; I do not know that we have ever been able to put it into operation. We had an Instance some Years ago which did not arise from not having Power. In the Vessel alluded to the Men flogged the Captain, and the Mates and the Captain would not punish them. They succeeded in making the Voyage afterwards. I mention that merely to show the Conduct of the Crews.
In point of fact are not Captains very often on those Occasions, even if they have any summary Power given to them, afraid to act, fearing that the Crew will run away with the Ship?
    Yes.
Do you think that if an Act of the Imperial Parliament were to declare that if any Crew of any Ship bearing the Flag of Great Britain were to be guilty of any atrocious Acts you could, when they came to England, mulct them of the whole of their Pay or their Property, or what they claimed for the Voyage, that would be efficient?
    I think that would be efficient.
In point of fact would not such a Regulation prevent the Crews of British Ships, not only from committing those Outrages in New Zealand, but in all the other Islands where they might touch?
    I think it would, certainly.
As it is now those Laws are not very clearly understood, or perhaps not very well defined?
    Certainly, they are not so; at least the Captains continually complain that they have not sufficient Power over their Crews.
​If it were declared that any Offence committed by one of the Crew of a Vessel under the Flag of England should enable the Owners in this Country to deprive that Man of all his Allowances, you think that would be efficient?
    Yes, I think it would.
Do you think you should be able to get sufficient Proof of the Fact?
    We must first get the Proof; but then there would be great Difficulty; our Articles of Agreement for our Ships generally are drawn as strongly as they can be, but still we find them not sufficient to meet the Difficulty; we cannot bring the Charges home.
If the Men have Reason to complain of the Master they can prove their Case?
    It is much more easy for them to obtain Reparation against the Master than it is for the Captain against the Crews.
Should you, individually, be benefited by a stronger Authority being established in New Zealand?
    I feel satisfied that we should, as being concerned in the Whale Fishery.
You feel no Doubt you would be benefited?
    Our Crews would not be so disorderly, and we should not lose them. A Voyage may be materially injured from the Desertion of so many of the Crew. They are sometimes important Men, Boat-steerers, Carpenters, and so on; we can replace some of our Sailors by New Zealanders, but not our Boat-steerers or Carpenters.
Do you, in your Firm, make use of New Zealand Flax?
    We do; we prefer it to Russian Hemp.
Can you get it much cheaper than the Russian Hemp?
    It costs us less than the Russian Hemp does; not per Ton, but because the same Length is lighter; it does not weigh so much per Ton; it is more costly, but we can get for the same Weight an increased Length and an increased Strength.
Are you aware whether the Yacht Club have used any of this Hemp?
    They have.
Do you know whether they are satisfied with it?
    I believe not.
Do you know whether it was prepared properly?
    It was prepared under Captain Harris's Patent. We worked Captain Harris's Patent for some Time. The Vernon Frigate had some manufactured on Captain Harris's Principle; we used it ourselves; we were the first Year extremely favourable to it; the Fibre was extremely soft, and the Cordage softer than Cordage usually is; but we found the whole of the Solution separate from the Flax, and it was condemned. Afterwards we introduced Tar, but the Prejudice was so strong against the Flax, that it is a very difficult Thing to introduce it again to Parties who are so prejudiced against it; but I should particularly impress upon your Lordships, that for Whale Lines it is considerably preferable to any other, and those are most important in our Trade. I prefer it on account of its Strength and its Pliability also.
Is it to be bought manufactured into Cordage?
    Yes, we make it ourselves; but there has not been a Bale imported this last Year.
There might be a great Quantity bought?
    Yes, an unlimited Quantity.
Has there not been a strong Opinion expressed that it might be grown in Parts of Ireland?
    I believe it is growing now in Parts of Ireland.
Do you think it might be improved by Cultivation?
    I do not know that it might be improved by Cultivation; I believe it might be improved by Treatment immediately after it was cut.
​Does it suffer from the Way in which it is picked?
    In doubling it, the Part outside, if Wet gets to it, is destroyed. There are Two Descriptions of New Zealand Flax; some growing on the Marshes and some on the Hills.
Is there a Difference in the Colour?
    There is a considerable Difference.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.