# Inland Transit/App2

( II. )
The Right Hon. Lord Wharncliffe in the Chair.
The Chairman opened the business by observing that the meeting was held to take into consideration the circumstances which occasioned the failure of the London and Birmingham Railway Bill, and the propriety of some expression of opinion as to what further proceedings may be expedient with respect to it.
The Earl of Denbigh then rose and moved—
   "That, in the opinion of this meeting, a Railway from London to Birmingham will be productive of very great national benefit."
Sir J. Skipwith, M.P. seconded the motion, and stated that no person who duly considered the subject could doubt that the proposed Railway would have been extremely beneficial to the great towns it was intended to unite, to the districts through which it would have passed, and the nation at large.
​The resolution was then put, and carried unanimously.
The Earl of Aylesford moved the second Resolution—
   "That the Bill for effecting this important object having passed the House of Commons after a long and rigorous examination of its merits, it must be presumed that its failure in the House of Lords has arisen from apprehensions on the part of the landowners and proprietors respecting its probable effect on their estates, which this meeting firmly and conscientiously believe to be ill-founded."
This Resolution was seconded by Sir Edward D. Scott, Bart. M.P.
Lord Wharncliffe. Before I put this Resolution. I think it right to make a few observations. There can be no doubt that to this apprehension of the landowners the failure of the Bill must be attributed. The gentlemen who consulted me before I consented to take the chair in the Committee, will remember that I pointed out to them the difficulty which so great a proportion of dissentient landowners would offer to the passing of the Bill; and I begged it might be understood that I went into the Committee entirely unpledged.
I must now say, that upon hearing the evidence for the Bill. I was quite satisfied that this undertaking had the character of a great national measure—not a scheme, like many formed in 1825, for the purpose of profit and traffic in shares—though no doubt it was formed and prosecuted with a view of local benefit to the great towns of London and Birmingham. Having carefully sifted the evidence. I confess I was prepared to support the Bill, unless something should be advanced on the part of the opponents to alter my opinion. I think it right likewise to add, that of the many Bills of this description which have come before me in the course of my parliamentary life. I never saw one passed by either House that was supported by evidence of a more conclusive character.
Of the utility of such a measure no one in the least acquainted with the nature of trade can entertain a doubt—a speedy communication with the ports of shipment or places of consumption, is of vital importance to the manufacturer—there can be no doubt that such a mode of communication as this was proposed to be will be extended not only to Birmingham but to Liverpool, to Lancashire. Yorkshire, and all the manufacturing districts of the North, and will be productive of great national benefit. Still I must contend that it is the business of the legislature to protect the property of the parties through whose lands the line would pass, to assure itself that all practicable measures have been taken to satisfy those persons whose ​property is to be invaded, and who. I must think, ought never to be hurried and forced, but rather wooed and won.
Gentlemen. I have the greatest hopes that in the future progress of the business such conduct will be pursued, and if so. I am quite ready to say that it shall have my best assistance in Parliament; - could I suppose that a different line of conduct would be adopted, and threats and intimidations had recourse to. I should feel compelled to oppose the measure both in Parliament and out of it. But I have great confidence that none but conciliatory measures will be pursued, and in that case the promoters of the Bill may rely upon my best exertions in their favour.
F. Lawley, Esq. M.P. I should not have ventured to address this meeting, had I not diligently and studiously attended, as was my duty, the proceedings on the Bill in the Committee of the House of Commons every day it sat, and therefore am more favourably circumstanced even than your Lordship for forming a judgement on the subject, having heard not only the evidence in favour of the measure, but all that could be alleged against it; and I can safely say, and say it with more confidence as my opinion perfectly coincides with that of your Lordship, that I went into the Committee pained and grieved that so many landed proprietors dissented from the measure, and feeling, like your Lordship, that it was my duty to afford them every protection; but I came out of the Committee fully convinced that the fears they entertained of injury to their property, or interference with their comfort and convenience, were entirely unfounded. I declare I would not otherwise have supported the measure as I have done.
There was one word which fell from your Lordship to which I cannot forbear adverting; I mean the word intimidation: and I avow that if I saw any endeavour to use intimidation in support of this or any other measure, it should have my determined opposition: but knowing as I do most of the gentlemen who are the principal promoters of this measure. I can assure your Lordship they are the last men in the world who would attempt to carry any measure by such means. The second Resolution was then put and carried unanimously.
The Earl of Caledon moved the third Resolution, which was seconded by J. H. Foley, Esq. M.P.
   "That consequently this meeting see no parliamentary or other grounds for abandoning this great undertaking, convinced as they are, that by timely explanations and a continuance of judicious management, the difficulties which occurred in the ​progress of the Bill may be removed in the ensuing Session of Parliament."
Lord Wharncliffe. Before I put the Resolution. I beg to state that I have never seen a Committee in the House of Lords, that attended more strictly to the examination of the points before them. When we had concluded the case of the promoters, one of the Peers who opposed the Bill said, that notwithstanding all that had been alleged in its favour, he could not make up his mind to force this measure upon so many dissentient landed proprietors, and he thought it right, for the saving both of time and expense, to make a motion to that effect immediately. You are acquainted with the result of that motion; and I must say, as far as I could judge from my own observations and the best information I could obtain, a similar result would have taken place had the Committee divided on any preceding day of its sitting.
I make these observations in consequence of a rumour that it was intended to impugn the decision of the Committee in the House of Lords. I add, that had I observed the least unfairness. I would myself have been the first to bring it before the House. It has been the object of my whole life to prevent all such proceedings in every Committee I attended. His Lordship then put the third Resolution, which was carried unanimously.
J. H. Foley, Esq. M.P. I beg to make a few observations on the latter part of this Resolution. It is my earnest hope that the effect of this meeting will be to produce a favourable result to the measure on a future occasion. I live in the neighbourhood with which this measure is particularly connected, and I know most of the gentlemen who are concerned in promoting it, and I am sure there are not more honourable men living. I attended the whole of the case in the House of Commons, and firmly believe there never was a measure more fairly brought forward. There is a most intense interest about it in my own neighbourhood; a great depression has existed in the manufacture of that district, and all were looking with anxiety for the success of this measure, which it was hoped and believed would have tended to afford them relief. I think its success would have caused an excitement at this moment most peculiarly desirable. I trust this Resolution will tend to remove any prejudices which may exist against it, and at the earliest possible period to ensure its success.
Thomas Paget, Esq. M.P. said he had been on the Committee of the House of Commons to which this measure had been referred, and had been impressed with a deep conviction of the benefits which would have resulted from it. At the same time he quite agreed in the observation of the Noble Chairman, and had no doubt the promoters of the measure would pursue ​the line of conduct which his Lordship recommended. It might be of some service to state, that a Railway passed through an estate of his own; that at first he was opposed to it, but the benefits, the pecuniary benefits, arising from the enhanced value of the property, had been such as to convince him that in opposing it he opposed his own interests, and he was satisfied that in the event other landowners would come to the same conclusion. This observation of course did not apply to cases in which the ornamented domains—the pleasure grounds—the privacy—of gentlemen may be invaded; their comforts or even their feelings disregarded. On the proposed Railway from London to Birmingham he believed not a single instance of this nature occurred. No pains, no expense had been spared to effect so desirable an object. Were all the facts which had been given in evidence, as to the increased value of lands from improved modes of communication, collected and laid before the opposing proprietors, he was satisfied that time and consideration would convince them that, in opposing the Railway, they were influenced, in the language of the Resolution, by "ill-founded apprehensions."
Colonel Torrens, M.P. My Lord. I entirely concur in the judicious remarks which have been made with respect to the necessity of avoiding intimidation, and I beg leave to say one word, just to express my own opinion, that every species of intimidation would not only be improper, but entirely unnecessary, because the utility of a measure of this kind rests upon grounds so plain and so easily made out, that it only requires a little time and a little plain statement of the question to convince the landed proprietors on the line, who are now averse to it. It is my opinion, and an opinion formed upon some reflection, that every thing which has a tendency to diminish the cost of carriage of goods or agricultural produce, must have a similar effect to that which would be produced by increasing the fertility of the soil itself, and therefore the landowners in this kingdom in particular are the persons most interested in every thing that tends to cheapen and quicken carriage. (hear, hear.)
Lord Wharncliffe. I entirely concur in what has fallen from the gentleman who has just spoken. In my judgment, there cannot be a greater mistake, on the part of the landholders, than to think a Railway through their lands would improve injurious to then. On the contrary, it will tend to increase their conveniences and their rentals. I am convinced the promoters of this measure, in its future progress, will take care it shall interfere as little as possible even with the fancied comfort of proprietors. I add, that during the course of the proceedings on the Bill, and since its failure. I have observed a disposition ​on the part of some who opposed it, to view it more favourably; and one who took a leading part in the opposition, has stated to me his own wish to have formed some amicable arrangement, but he found there were certain individuals who thought the injury they should sustain would be such as would not admit of remuneration; he could not desert them, and was therefore compelled, whatever might be his own inclination, to continue his opposition.
J. Solly, Esq. May I be permitted, as Chairman of the London Board of Directors of the proposed Railway, to thank your Lordship for the observations you have done us the honour to address to us. I am persuaded we shall never lose sight of them in the future conduct of our great undertaking. Our gratitude is likewise due to your Lordship and other Noble Peers, as well as to Honourable Members of the House of Commons, for their diligent and anxious attention during the sitting of the Committees on the Bill, and their close examination of the great mass of evidence it was necessary to adduce. For this voluntary addition to their other laborious duties. I would beg to assure them we feel sincerely and deeply grateful.
Lord Wharncliffe then recommended that, as many persons who would probably have been glad to join in these proceedings, had not been able to attend the meeting, they should be invited to add their signatures to the resolutions. He would sign them on behalf of the meeting.
Edmund Peel, Esq. M.P. Chairman of the Birmingham Board. I rise to move the thanks of this meeting to the Noble Lord who has done us the honour to take the Chair, and in particular for the valuable and most important observations he has addressed to us. Having taken an active part in the conduct of this undertaking. I feel some diffidence in trespassing upon your attention, lest I should be regarded as an interested party; but having for upwards of twenty-two years been engaged in commercial affairs. I must be permitted to say, that I do not think a measure was ever projected, calculated to produce such great and beneficial effects as that which has occasioned our present meeting. I can safely say, that the results of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway have far exceeded the expectation of the parties who embarked in it. Commercial men can safely appreciate the advantages of cheap, certain, and rapid means of communication. With regard to the apprehensions entertained—I am sure conscientiously—by certain Noble Lords, of injury to their estates from the Railway-time and reflection. I am convinced, will remove them; and the obstacles, which have for the present impeded our great undertaking, will at no distant period entirely disappear.
​The Earl of Denbigh seconded Mr. Peel's motion.
The Resolution was then put and carried unanimously.
Lord Wharncliffe. It is not necessary for me to trouble you with my thanks on this occasion: all I can say is, that in the future progress of the measure I shall shew that I am very sensible of your kindness.
The foregoing Resolutions were subscribed by the following Members of the House of Peers, and of the House of Commons:—
Members of the House of peers.
The Rt. Hon. Lord Wharncliffe, Chairman.
* Rt. Hon. Marquis of Sligo.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of Aylesford.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Caledon.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Denbigh.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Glengall.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Gosford.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Howe.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Limerick.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Shannon.
* Rt. Hon. Earl of— — — Ranfurly.
* Rt. Hon. Viscount Hood.
* Rt. Hon. Lord Dinorben.
* Rt. Hon. Lord— — — Lyttleton.
* Rt. Hon. Lord— — — Mostyn.
* Rt. Hon. Lord— — — Northwick.
Members of the House of Commons.
* Sir G. Skipwith, Bart. Chairman of the Committe
* Arthur Atherley.
* C. B. Baldwin.
* Lord G. Bentinck.
* John Browne.
* C. Calvert.
* O'Connor Don.
* Sir J. M. Doyle.
* T. S. Duncombe.
* Wynne Ellis.
* J. H. Foley.
* James Foster.
* B. Heywood.
* Hon. John Henry Knox.
* John James Knox.
* F. Lawley.
* N. P. Leader.
* C. S. Lefevre.
* John Morrison.
* F. W. Mullins.
* Lord Nugent.
* Daniel O'Connell.
* T. Paget.
* E. Peel.
* J. S. Penleaze.
* G. R. Phillips.
* E. T. Ruthven.
* Sir E. D. Scott, Bart.
* Charles Stewart.
* Horace St. Paul.
* Ralph Thicknesse.
* Col. Torrens.
* Charles Wynne.
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​In conclusion, then, it may be taken from the foregoing facts and evidence, that railroads will prove a great national benefit; and that locomotive engines are and can now be constructed at about one-fourth of their former expense, and to travel on the levels of the Greenwich railroad to Dover, the Western railroad to Reading and Newbury, the projected grand Southern railroad to Portsmouth, Shoreham, and Brighton, and the grand Northern railroad to York, safely, at the average speed of twenty-five to thirty miles an hour, without tunnels or steep inclined planes. A single engine is capable of propelling on such levels from 60 to 100 tons of goods and merchandise at the speed of twenty miles per hour, as will appear by the fact, that the engine called the Fire Fly travelled on the Liverpool railroad 22,000 miles in successive days, 155 miles per day, at the expense in fuel of a half-penny per mile.
The steepest part of the Liverpool railroad is at Rain Hill, where it rises about eight feet per mile; and from all the experiments that have been hitherto tried, a railroad, whose inclined plane exceeds ten to twelve feet rise per mile, destroys the objects for which commercial railroads are designed; viz. speed of travelling, and the transit of large cargoes of goods, grain, and merchandise, at a small expense: therefore, I am of opinion that railroads will not do for hilly countries, or cross roads; and roads of small traffic will be found inconvenient and too expensive to afford a fair return for capital.
The science of constructing steam-engines is now brought to maturity, so that an engine can be ​constructed to produce a certain power ; and yet, every year, new wonders are produced, not only in England, but in France and America.
I have long since been of opinion that steam-engines will shortly be superseded by another class of engines, which will perform all that steam-engines have hitherto done, without the danger of fire or the bursting of boilers, and at one-fourth of the expense.
I have constructed a philosophical engine, designed to perform the duties of the steam-engine, without the aid of water, steam, or fire; which, I feel, ere long, will be brought into general use, and will give another powerful impetus to navigation and inland transit, by removing the stowage of coals and water, and the danger of fire, on board of ships, and the public may expect to see locomotive engines travelling on rail-roads, with a train of carriages, at the speed of from twenty to thirty miles an hour, without the aid of steam or any apparent cause.
What the world wants to complete its education are those sound principles of public economy, which contribute most to promote national and individual wealth and happiness, by removing the obstacles to internal communication and the march of useful knowledge, and establishing among us an interchange of commodities, according to the wants and the capabilities of each community.
Railroads may be constructed in five points out of London, to the great advantage of the public, like the ancient Roman roads; the Midland to Birmingham and Liverpool, the Northern to York, the Eastern to Dover, the Southern to Portsmouth, Shoreham, and Brighton, and the Western to Bath and Bristol, with ​tributary branches from opulent towns and manufactories on each respective line of railroad. I venture to recommend these on public grounds only, no private party feelings or private interest should intervene or impede such important national designs.
When such extensive designs shall have been completed, the landowner, farmer, grazier, trader, manufacturer, and merchant will vie with each other, in the lasting benefit, splendour, and glory which such expanded views of science will send forth to the productive classes and the consumers of the production of the earth.
Extensive tracks of excellent land on each respective line of railroad will be brought into cultivation. The agricultural labourer and artisan will be called from the workhouse and prison to permanent and profitable labour; while the produce of the loom and the manufacturer will be called into extensive demand by the additional consumption that prosperity would give. Among the advantages that these railroads would give is the extension of agriculture; more than a million of acres of productive land would be brought into the foreground, and cultivated, through which the projected railroads would pass. Husbandry and labour would be extended; and the home growth of grain may be progressively made equal to home consumption ; whereby the four or five millions per year, now expended in the purchase of foreign grain, may be expended in manual labour and cultivation at home.
These railroads would contribute towards the poor and county rates most essentially in every parish and county throughout which they pass; while manual labour would be extended to the advantage of all; ​while they would confer the highest advantages to the merchant, and trader, and mariner. It would enable them to ship and transport their goods, wares, and merchandise with despatch and certainty, would remove the long complained of difficulty of valuable shipments or cargoes delayed by contrary winds in the north and southern channels, where large fleets, fleets of 500 sail of merchant ships, have been detained by contrary winds for six weeks, and sometimes three months, with perishable cargoes, viz. fish, fruits, butter, cheese, meat, eggs, corn, oils, tallow, &c., which, by the aid of the rail-roads, may be brought to the markets over land from the Humber, Boston, Lynn, and Portsmouth, and other of the outports, without the well-known danger of shipwreck and loss of human life in rounding the forelands of our northern and southern channels.
These exports and imports may be made by aid of the railroads at Shoreham and Portsmouth in the English Channel, and cannot be impeded by contrary winds, or the peril of war,—also from the ports of the Humber, Boston, Lynn, and Yarmouth, or Lowesstoffe, on our northern coast, in the space of five hours, at the rate of about 5s. per ton. Thus many hundred valuable cargoes and human lives may be saved from shipwreck and capture.
These railroads will give advantages to His Majesty's government in the immediate and certain despatch of mails, couriers, troops, naval and military stores, and other munitions of war, both abroad and at home.
And, lastly, from the highly respectable classes of the foregoing evidence, given by landowners, farmers, graziers, salesmen, cornfactors, and others on the ​London and Birmingham railroad bill, in the last session of Parliament, decides, that no class of His Majesty's subjects are more interested than the land-owners. In constructing railroads, these railroads will reduce the present burthen upon the land, the poor and county rates, and extend manual labour and the consumption of the produce of the soil, and enable the cultivator and the productive classes to send forth their goods and wares, with great facility, at one third of the former expense, to the first markets in the world.
The End,.