# Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Tuesday, 10 April 1838/John Downing Tawell

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​ ​Did you observe to what Extent the Missionaries had succeeded in imparting Religious Instruction?
    Yes; I had an Opportunity of seeing all their Congregations on the River.
How did the People conduct themselves upon those Occasions?
    In a way that I have never seen in any Part of the World, not excepting this Country.
Well?
    Yes, exceedingly well.
You consider that the Missionaries have been very successful in their Labours there?
    To an Extent I have not witnessed anywhere else.
Could you judge whether previous to their Intercourse with the Missionaries the Natives had any religious Creed of their own; any Notion of the Existence of a supreme Power?
    I am only enabled to answer that from the present Condition of the heathen Natives, biassed as that is perhaps, by their Contiguity to the others, and having imbibed Opinions from them.
Were you in any Part of the Island in Intercourse with Natives among whom the Missionaries had not been at all?
    No; not where they had not made Efforts of some Description or other
In those Parts in which their Efforts had made the least Progress, what Sort of Disposition and Feeling did you witness among the Natives relative to Europeans?
    A very kindly Feeling indeed, produced entirely by the moral Influence the Missionaries have obtained among them.
Were you privy to any Negotiations or Arrangements about Land with any of the Natives?
    I was very near becoming a Landed Proprietor myself, to a trifling Extent.
What Steps did you take with regard to that?
    One particular Circumstance I am referring to applies to a Piece of Land that was offered to an Individual calling himself the Baron De Thierry. It was a considerable Portion of very fine Land. It was offered to him on such Terms that I observed to the superintending Missionary I thought I should buy it myself if the Baron did not.
You say a Piece of Land was offered; what Step did the Native take towards that?
    In this Instance this Individual had brought down Sixty Persons from Sydney with him; he arrived while I was there.
Of what Class were those Persons?
    The Majority of a very infamous Description, such as he had picked up in Sydney. He stated himself to have a considerable Claim upon Land at the Head of the Hokianga District, called Waihoo; and as soon as it was convenient after his Arrival a Meeting of the Chiefs of the River took place at the Station of Mangungu, the principal Station. After Two or Three Days meeting he was obliged, by the Force of Representation, to relinquish it; it being clearly made out that the Purchase was only, in their Language, rahood, that is, that only a Deposit had been paid, and that the Term of Completion was then long past. In these Circumstances it became a Matter of serious Consideration with the Missionaries, and with all the Residents, and the Natives themselves, what was to be done with him. He had no Money; he had brought no Provisions; and the Question was whether they were to be left to perish on the River. It was under these Circumstances that a Chief offered to sell him the Piece of Land I have before alluded to. That was done through the Agency of Mr. Turner, the senior Missionary, who acted as Interpreter.
So that the native Chief volunteered the parting with some Land for Consideration?
    For a Consideration, and under those particular Circumstances.
​Do you know the Particulars of the Price?
    Yes; 2001., to be paid in Property, at a fair average Rate; that was understood on the River; Blankets, Tobacco, Fowling-pieces, and so on.
As far as you had an Opportunity of knowing, this was a Proposition coming from the Chief?
    I know it to be so, for I was present when the Subject was broached.
Do you know the Extent of the Land for which this Price was to be given?
    I walked over the greater Part of it, and by the Estimate of the Person with me he considered there was between 3,000 and 4,000 Acres. It was very advantageously situated, for a Part faced the main River, and had very deep Water, with every Facility for bringing Ships close alongside; and it extended across to another very beautiful River, where they had a Frontage of several Miles that would have commanded the Trade of the River.
Was that Land fit for the Growth of Wheat?
    I am not an Agriculturist, but judging from the Produce of the Land in general, I should consider it adapted for any Purpose.
Was there a considerable Depth of Loam?
    There was a considerable Depth of decayed Vegetable Substance.
Had you an Opportunity of learning from the Natives what was their Feeling with respect to the Influence of Europeans; do they expect them, or wish for them, or wish that they were not there at all?
    I will instance a Case of this Individual, Baron Thierry; he brought Sixty Persons with him, the whole of them unprovided with any thing beyond a Fortnight or Three Weeks Provisions. He stated in his first or second Interview with the Chiefs, that he anticipated that his Brother would be down in a few Months with 500 Persons; that appeared to create a great deal of Alarm, and One of the Chiefs decidedly said that an Attempt at landing would be resisted by them. The Missionaries also stated that they were afraid their Influence would not be sufficient if they attempted to possess themselves of the Land formerly claimed ; that they thought it could not be enforced. They appeared to labour under great Alarm at the Idea of a considerable Body settling. Their Idea of Europeans settling among them was that they should come in small Bodies and settle in their Valleys, but not to form distinct large Communities among them. There were Nene, now called Thomas Walker, a Christian Chief, Moses, Timothy, Rowmatta, now called John King, and Moka, and a Number of others whose Names I cannot call to mind.
As you did not speak the Language, what was the Means by which you obtained an Insight into their Views upon this Subject?
    Through the Medium of the Missionaries, being much interested on the Subject of this Man's Settlement, he having laid Claim to the sovereign Authority over that Spot; over the whole Northern Island; in fact he has done that in
his Manifesto.
What became of those Sixty People?
    It had not terminated; we left them all at Hokianga; an Officer of Her Majesty's Service, who was the Charterer of the Vessel, Lieutenant McDonald, received them into his Establishment, or they would have been houseless. He is under Contract to supply Her Majesty's Dockyard with Spars.
What is the State of the European Society already settled there, exclusive of the Missionaries?
    The Majority of Persons are Persons of irregular Conduct and infamous Character. My own Servant recognized Two Persons whom he had known when Constable as Convicts in Van Diemen's Land.
They had escaped?
    I presume so. There was another, whom a Fellow Passenger in the same Ship with me happening to meet when he was in Half Uniform, he got out of his Way with very great Expedition. They almost all sell Spirits; our own Ship was placed in very serious Peril in consequence of their supplying some of our Crew repeatedly with Spirits; we were obliged to tie One of our Men up.
​Did you flog him?
    His Shipmates came up, and we let him off with a Promise to do it themselves if he did not return to his Duty; we armed ourselves with Authority to act if it became necessary.
Did you know Mr. P——————— there?
    I did not know him there.
Did you know him anywhere?
    Yes, very well.
Where did you know him?
    In New South Wales.
Should you think that he ought to be designated as a respectable Man?
    I am in possession of One or Two Facts of my own Knowledge which would make me disbelieve him on his Oath under any Circumstances.
Are you aware that the Mr. P——————— of whom you speak has been examined before the Committee?
    I have understood so; his Initials are J.S.P. I know his Brother.
You did not go to the Bay of Islands?
    No.
Did you visit any of the Schools under the Care of the Wesleyan Missionaries?
    I did, several. The Children are generally taught as far as they are able to go, and as the Missionaries Time will admit.
Do you think those Children were intelligent Children, taking them as a Body?
    To as great an Extent as any Children I ever saw anywhere.
Can many of them already read and write?
    I think their Power of Acquisition is greater than our own, almost. I had the indirect Care of Two New Zealand Children in England for some Time. The Persons with whom they were placed have formed the same Opinion of them. They have been placed with Children of the same Age in Schools here.
Are they in this Country now?
    One is dead, and the other has returned to New South Wales.
Do you know whether the Natives in the Neighbourhood of the Place where you were, who were under the Care of the Missionaries, were very eager to obtain Religious Instruction?
    To an amazing Extent. I was present when a Deputation of, I think, Eight came from Taranaki in the Neighbourhood of Cape Egmont. Some Missionaries had been with them, and had been withdrawn by an Arrangement with the Church Missionary Society; they had just come to a preliminary Arrangement then. From the Wars interfering with the Arrangements of the Church Missionary Society, they had been left to their own Resources. With this limited Religious Information they had however kept up the Observance of the Sabbath and their other Religious Services as far as they could, and their Object in coming to Hokianga was to beg and pray that a Missionary might be sent to them forthwith.
Are there any native Missionaries of the Wesleyans there?
    I saw Five or Six, who frequently addressed the Natives in their own Language; and it is customary in all their Villages, however small, for the Chief of the Village to read a Portion of the Liturgy of the Church every Night and Morning. They assemble at Daylight; and always the last Thing at Night before they go to rest they are called together, and I think I may say, unless kept back by serious Illness, they are invariably present. I have spent Nights among them; I have slept in the Chapels where the Services are held. On those Occasions generally the officiating Persons among the Natives are the Chiefs of the Village. They are intelligent Men.
Can they read?
    The great Majority can.
​They are extremely anxious to procure Copies of the New Testament which has been translated into their Language, are they not?
    Yes; I have seen many Notes addressed to the Missionaries,— I do not know that I am not in possession of some,— where they beg and pray they will send them Books, and there are so many Potatoes for them, or some Kumeras, and perhaps a Pig, in payment for them. I have brought with me a Translation of the Church Liturgy, omitting the Repetitions, which is used by them. (Delivering in the same.)
The Witness is directed to withdraw.