# Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords, appointed to inquire into the present state of the Islands of New Zealand/Tuesday, 3 April 1838/John Watkins

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Mr. John Watkins is called in, and examined as follows:
You are a Professional Man, a Surgeon?
    I am.
Have you at any Time been in New Zealand?
    I was there in the Years 1833 and 1834.
Are you a naval Surgeon?
    No, a private Surgeon.
Did you visit it from this Country?
    No, I went there from Sydney.
With whom did you go?
    I went with a trading Vessel, as Surgeon of the Vessel.
How long did you remain there?
    About Three Months altogether in New Zealand collectively. I availed myself of the Opportunity of traversing the Country and searching for Flowers and natural Curiosities,—botanizing; these were my Objects.
Did that lead you to walk about the Island a good deal?
    It led me to walking a good deal; Forty or Fifty Miles in the Interior, in various Directions, about the Bay of Islands. I went over to Hukianga.
Were you accompanied in those Walks?
    Frequently, in short Walks for Six or Ten Miles, alone. In my long Walks I had One Native with me; sometimes I had an English Person with me, one of the Residents there; sometimes I was in company with one of the Missionaries. I became acquainted with the Missionaries very soon after I went there; I made it a Point to call upon them to have every Information I could from them, and they were very kind to me; the Natives saw that, and hence I was enabled to go any where I liked without any Fear.
Did the Natives at all make out what your Object was?
    Perfectly.
​Did they assist you at all in your Researches?
    They assisted me in directing my Attention to Plants and Flowers; where they thought there was a particular Plant I had not seen, they would bring it, expecting some little Remuneration; Tobacco for Instance. They were particularly civil and hospitable; wherever I went they offered me the best Things they had, such as Pork and Potatoes, the Two Things they had of Eatables, with Fish.
At what Time of the Year were you there?
    It was in December 1833, and the Spring of 1834.
That is in their finest Weather?
    Yes, in very fine Weather.
What Observation did you make upon the Climate?
    The Climate is very delightful. I was there in 1833 in March and April, in 1834 in the beginning of January and again in May; the Climate is very equable.
As you were there at different Periods of the Year, did the Vicissitudes appear great, as compared with European Climates?
    Not any thing like our Climate. The Frost was there at one Time a very gentle Frost indeed; the Ice was not entirely over a small Pool of Water; they told me that they saw Ice sometimes in the Bay the Thickness of a Shilling, but I did not see any thing of that Thickness. I have slept out frequently in the Bush. The Fern grows in very great Abundance. I found myself very comfortable and warm in my Great Coat and a Bed of Fern, rather than sleeping in the Houses, which are very unfit for English People.
Did you meet with any Difficulties from the Conduct of the Chiefs?
    Not the slightest. I never met with any Difficulty at all; they used to esteem me as the Surgeon of the Missionaries; the Missionaries are the only People there to give one any Consequence; they used to esteem me as their friend; I used to be admitted into their best Societies; wherever the Chief was I made it a Point to go to him and put myself under his Protection, and presented him with various little Trifles; a little Tobacco or whatever would amuse him.
What Observation did you make upon the Productions of the Country?
    The Productions of the Country are very few Potatoes, and Indian Wheat; they regularly live upon those; they are almost the sole Things, excepting the Months before the digging of Potatoes, then they have nothing but the Root of the Fern, which they bruise up and bake, which is productive of great Injury to them, producing Constipation of the Bowels to a very great Extent.
Is that a Disorder which prevails among them?
    Yes, entirely, during those Months; I have never met with any thing of the Kind anywhere else. Their Diseases are something like our Diseases, with the Exception of Scrofula being perhaps more abundant there, and cutaneous Affections of a very malignant Kind,—one of the most malignant of the cutaneous Affections we meet with; they know how to treat it; they bathe in the sulphureous Lakes when they can, and they are aware that if they go there they will be cured; they know no other Remedy; I have not seen them apply any other Remedy.
Where are the sulphureous Lakes?
    About the East Cape in general; they are warm.
What is the general Character and Appearance of the Natives?
    They are very fine stout healthy Men; very majestic in their Walk and Contour in general.
In such Cultivation as you saw did you make Observation upon the Sort of Implements they use?
    Their Implements now are English Implements, the Spade and Mattock and Pickaxe.
Did they appear desirous to get them?
    Yes; they would part with any thing they possessed for them; their Pigs ​and Potatoes and Indian Wheat they will give up for any thing of that Kind. Blankets also were taken in exchange.
Did you observe whether they were more pleased with Trinkets and Baubles or with Articles of Utility?
    They were more pleased with Articles that supplied their Necessities, Spades, and Pots for boiling their Potatoes, and Blankets. Tobacco certainly is a frivolous Thing, but they are more pleased with that than with any thing else; and Spirits they were pleased with also.
They have got to like them?
    Yes.
During the Time you were there what was the State of the European Population?
    The European Population may be divided into Two Classes, the Missionaries and the Lay Class. The Missionaries entirely enjoy their Confidence, and the others do not; the others I should say are a great Mischief to them; introducing every thing which is bad amongst them.
By Missionaries do you mean both the Clergymen and the Catechists and others connected with them?
    Yes, I meant all the Catechists as well as the Clergy ; the Natives made no Distinction between the Catechists and the regular Clergymen; they are all called Clergymen; I found they were all much respected.
Are they respected as much as they were?
    Quite as much, or more; I should fancy their Influence is increasing gradually. To be friendly with the Missionaries is to be friendly with the Natives. From having been seen with the Missionaries they used to call me the Missionary Doctor; I was admitted into their Houses everywhere whenever I pleased to go.
Can you form any Judgment as to the Amount of European Population when you were there?
    That must be of course a very rough Estimate. The runaway Sailors and Convicts, and all that low Class, may amount to 400 or 500 Individuals; I should fancy that from One or Two being in every Tribe, and in many Five or Six, exclusive of the Missionaries, and who call themselves respectable English People; those have Shops there, and Stores for Ships, and such like Things. Though they join with the European Sailors in general against the Missionaries, yet they are a little superior to the other, at the same Time they have no Influence with the Natives when there is any Difficulty between any Two of the Natives or any One Native and either of the English People; they do not go at all to Masters of Vessels or those independent Settlers, but they go at once to the Missionaries; Mr. Henry Williams especially, if he is at home; he has always the Preference, and indeed he is so esteemed among them that they have frequently offered to make him a Chief, which he has at all Times rejected; I know that to be the Case; it was done when I was there. I attended Mrs. Busby, the British Resident's Lady, there, and put her to bed of her first Child, and a Day or Two afterwards they came to plunder the Place, and shot at the House several Times.
The Natives?
    Yes. It was not known at the Time I was there who did it; but I have heard since that they have ascertained the Individual, and that there has been a Spot of Ground given, I believe, to Mr. Busby in consequence; a Spot of Ground has been given up from the Natives in consequence of the Affray. At that Time the Natives were very vigilant in endeavouring to find who was the Aggressor; at the Time I was there it was not found out. The Consequence of that Skirmish was, that I went round the Shipping to get them to give their Opinion upon the Case, and to call a Meeting to petition the Home Government for Power to arrest those Things; I have a copy of the Petition I brought home.
Was it at all known then what was the particular Motive or Cause which led to that Attack?
    It was not known at all, further than it was supposed in consequence of his being a Servant of the King, as they call the British Resident; he being the ​authoritative Person they were desirous of trying whether he had any Power or not.
Was it supposed that the Aggressors were supported or encouraged by the Chiefs?
    It was supposed that some one or other of the English Residents or Convicts led the Natives to this Aggression, but I believe that turned out afterwards not to be the Case; I believe that no European was concerned in that Affray. Titori, who I understood is since dead, was particularly anxious to find out the Aggressor; he was a great Friend to the Missionaries though he was not joined to them; his Tribe was esteemed to be a neutral Tribe, and the worst excepting that at the Waitangi, which was said to be the worst and most desperate of all there.
There was not at that Time, of course, in Mr. Busby or in any body else, any Authority that could punish this?
    He could not punish any body. There was one Instance I remember of a Master of a Vessel sending his Casks up the River Cowa Cowa for Water, and they were taken from the Officer who was in charge of them and rolled up into the Bush; the Master went for them and could not get them restored. He immediately went to Mr. Busby, who accompanied him back again; they still were not restored. Mr. Busby returned to one of the Missionaries, I think Mr. Williams, and he got them restored immediately, all that were not broken up. The Missionaries have immense Influence among the Natives; they are respected there as much as any Gentlemen of Character are respected here, and a great deal more; indeed I may say they have unlimited Influence. They had Horses brought from Sydney, when the Natives saw that the Horses could not pass through the various Tracts from Piar to Wynatte they in consequence made little Bridges and Roads for their Accommodation: this was all done by the Natives exclusively for Use of Missionaries, and frequently have I seen the Natives perform Acts of Kindness towards them; one Man especially, who went out sometime before I went there with an Army to the East Cape. Having conquered their Opponents, one Woman had her Husband and Two Children killed. This Man dashed the Children's Brains against the Stones, and took the Woman captive, and afterwards took her to be his Wife; when I was in New Zealand she had several Children by him. She had Sinuses in the Breast, which originated in Scrofula; a Fistula had formed in consequence of the scrofulous Tumour being allowed to remain without proper Treatment. I operated upon her Breast; she bore it with great Fortitude, and when she found I was about leaving the Island she was very much grieved, in consequence of a Fear of not getting well without my staying. Her Husband, when I was there, was one of the best Men Mr. Henry Williams had. When any Canoe was broken off its Moorings he went after it and brought it back, even without being requested to do so: I think that is an Instance of the Influence of Missionaries upon the Native Mind. I went up to the Cowa Cowa River with one of the English Residents, who had to procure a Mast for our Vessel; I went botanizing at the same Time, availing myself of his Company to go into the Bush. When there the Natives cooked Potatoes for our Supper; we had cold Pork and Biscuits besides. They lit a Fire at the Door of the little Hut we had secured to ourselves at the Side of the Forest, and after that they went to Prayer of their own Accord: there was no one there to suggest it. The Englishman told me, “If you wait for a Moment you will see how they act;" they sang a Psalm translated into their Language; then they fell on their Knees, one going to Prayer as a Clergyman would here in the Church, and the others responding; and in the Morning again when I awoke, which was just with the Day-break, I heard a Bell ring; on inquiring the meaning of it they told me of a Church being in the Neighbourhood,—a little Place they appropriated to Divine Service as Church; this Bell was rung to call the Natives to Prayers. There was no Missionary there then; only the Missionaries were in the habit of visiting them occasionally.
Those Persons professed to be Christians?
    Yes; the principal Chief of that Part was in the habit of having several Women as Wives, One principal Wife, and others as Concubines. By the ​Advice of the Missionaries he left off his Concubines, and adhered entirely to
his Wife.
Had you an Opportunity while you were there of seeing any Arrangement for the Transfer of Lands, or any Bargains made with respect to Land?
    I have heard of several of them. There was a Dispute between Two Englishmen with regard to a Spot of Land, which was not entirely settled before I left; between Mr. Wright and Mr. Clendon. One Shot the other's Cows, in consequence of a supposed trespassing on the other's Land. They had to refer the Matter to the Natives, with regard to settling the Boundaries of the Two Spots; but they were not able to do that without the Assistance of the Missionaries. The Missionaries were invariably called forward to assist in all Difficulties of that Kind.
You say they referred to the Natives; do you mean that they referred to them as knowing the Boundaries of the Land?
    Yes. The Boundaries were walked, as we should say here; the Boundaries of the Two English Gentlemen's Tracts; but one would not submit to the Boundaries being the right ones of the Land he had purchased; the Consequence was, the Cows were shot, and they had then to go to the Missionaries to intercede between the English People and the Natives. Clendon's Property Two or Three Times was in danger from the Natives, who attacked his House, and took Goods out of his Stores. They were going to take all the Stores he had away. He had no Power at all of preventing them. He went over to Mr. Henry Williams, who accompanied him back, and appeased the Natives, and got the whole of the Things in his Store back again; the Lines and Ropes and various Things he had for Ships. Ropes are very useful to the Natives; they would be very glad to get them, but through the Influence of Mr. William's Arguments they returned them.
Had you an Opportunity of seeing any Negotiation carried on between Europeans and Natives for the Purchase of Land?
    I had not; but I have had Lands offered to me several Times. A Chief in the Cowa Cowa told me if I would remain he would give me a Piece of Land to build a House, and would not require any Payment for it, fancying that my teaching him various useful Things would remunerate him.
Had you an Opportunity of judging whether they understood, as between themselves, the Rights of Property?
    Oh yes, thoroughly; they keep any Engagement with a European perfectly sacred and binding. An Instance of that came under my Notice lately; a Person of the Name of Trapp was shipwrecked; he went to New Zealand and purchased a small Piece of Ground merely till he should receive Remittance from home. He came home with me. I was able to help him to come away from thence. He told a Person who had been kind to him in his Distress that he would allow him to inhabit his House, and do any thing he liked in cultivating the Estate; but the Chiefs would not permit that, because they had not received any Authority to that Effect. He wrote home to Mr. Trapp, who immediately answered, and gave this Man Authority to possess the Spot. Since that he has been in Possession of the House and of the Land; but at the same Time the Chief holds the Engagement with Mr. Trapp quite binding, I understand. There is an Instance of their thinking the Land to be perfectly secure in the Possession of the English, where one of the Missionaries, I do not exactly know the minute History of the Fact, has purchased a large Spot of Ground about the Kirikiri, where I have been to see a Waterfall. The Tribe had emigrated from that Spot to the East Cape, a Distance of 400 or 500 Miles; they had left the Place entirely. There are hardly any native Houses now about the Kirikiri, where Shunghi the principal Chief, who came to England some time ago, lived. The Natives are a very fine Race of People; very intellectual, and capable of any Improvement; their Foreheads are very high and very broad, quite as fine as those of our English Population in Appearance.
One of the Natives who came over to this Country has died lately?
    I have heard that is the Case. There is a great Difference between the ​Appearance of the Natives of New Zealand and the Natives of Australia. The Natives of Australia are very inferior in point of Intellect; their Foreheads are very flat, and recede very much, and they are weakly in Appearance. The Natives of New Zealand are very bold, stout, and athletic; some of the Men are Six Feet high, and stout in proportion: Titori was of that Description; one of the finest Men I ever saw.
Were there many Vessels there during the Time you were there?
    From Thirty to Forty at one Time; English and American.
Are the Harbours good?
    The Harbours are called good, but certainly rather open.
What Harbours?
    The Bay of Islands, for instance, where Vessels anchor at Three different Places; Tipuna, Cororareka, and Cowa Cowa. At Cororareka is a small Beach; it is Twelve Miles from Tipuna, and Four Miles from Paihia.
Had you an Opportunity of conversing with the Natives at all, and learning their Feelings with respect to the coming of Europeans among them?
    Frequently; I used to converse with them in broken English and broken native Language, as much as I could, on any thing which came in the Way, and frequently on that Subject.
What appeared to you to be their Impression or Wish?
    They were very much alarmed at the Idea of their Country being taken away from them, and their being reduced to Slavery; but they were very anxious to have something done to increase their Knowledge, and to allow their Independence at the same Time to remain. They would frequently express themselves with that Idea. If they could get any Person to teach them the various Arts, for instance, the Medical Profession, they would be very glad indeed, and would esteem it a very high Favour. They used to hold out as an Inducement that they would give me any Spot of Land I thought proper to select out of the Chief's Territory if I would teach them the Medical Profession, or how to heal all Diseases. Any Person being sent to them in the Medical Profession would have great Influence with them, and I should say more in the Medical Profession than any other. The Missionary Character stands very high; it is impossible for it to stand higher than it does.
Was it within your Knowledge whether the Missionaries have occupied Lands much there?
    Yes, they have purchased some Spots of Land there; and Mr. Henry Williams was going then to purchase a Spot in the Neighbourhood of Waimati for his Children.
Can you describe the Transaction which took place which you consider amounting to purchase?
    They give, perhaps, Two or Three Muskets and a Barrel of Powder, and Three or Four Blankets, with Small Wares. The most common Things are Blankets sent out there to give them, and Powder and Shot, Pipes and Tobacco; those are the Things they get.
There is a Sort of Price given. How is the Land made over?
    The English People draw out a Sort of Document, as they would here; they get the Chiefs to sign it. The Chiefs take their Pen, and flourish in their own Style a Sort of—I do not know what to call it; something which is intelligible to themselves. They draw something similar to their tatooing. Each knows his own Mark.
Is the Document in their own Language?
    No; exclusively in the English Language; all I have seen.
The Document being exclusively in English, you had an Opportunity of judging whether the Chiefs understood what it meant or what was the Purport of it?
    Generally the Chiefs went to the Missionaries before they would sell any Spot of Land, to have them as Interpreters, and the Chiefs went according to what the Missionaries told them, in every Case I know, excepting Mr. Trapp. ​I believe he had some other Person as an Interpreter; but he drew out his own Documents.
You think, in all Cases of which you have any Cognizance, somebody in the Nature of an Interpreter acted?
    Yes.
Do you come to the Conclusion that the Chief understood what was the Meaning of the Instrument?
    Thoroughly; and he would not allow any other Person to purchase that Spot of Land, or any Part of it.
Do you know whether he was aware that he had made over that Land to the Person who purchased it?
    Yes. I have heard him say that the Land he had sold to the English was not any more the Land of the Natives; it was for the English; and it was the Case at the Waimati, at the Purchase of the Missionary Farm. The Chief called their Attention to that Point; he told them distinctly it was never to return to them again, or their Sons, or their Children after them.
You think that was made known by one of the Natives to the other Natives?
    Yes; by the principal Chief to the assembled Chiefs there.
Have you any Knowledge whether there was any Dissatisfaction shown by other Parties?
    No; they were all satisfied. Every one must be satisfied before the Land is secured; every Relative must be satisfied of the Purchase being thoroughly understood, and the Land altogether paid for adequately to their Views, before they concede to the English People, or it is considered as secure.
Are you aware whether there have been any Instances of the Natives seeking to regain Possession of the Land so sold?
    I have heard there has been, but I cannot substantiate it; that was with regard to one of the Islands in the Bay of Islands. It was supposed the Chief was imposed upon by some means or other; that some Trick or Stratagem was entered into to get it from him by some Person, and that Land was taken away again in consequence of that being discovered.
You have spoken of a European Population, exclusive of the Missionaries; what was the Occupation of those who were living at all in Houses, or near the Water?
    They sold various Things necessary for Shipping, depending upon the Ships to purchase them; Ropes and Anchors, and various little Things. The Ships there wanted what are called here Ship Chandlery; there were Three or Four of that Description of People at the Bay of Islands when I was there; they held as it were a middle Station between the other Class and the Missionaries. At the same Time there is no Dependance placed upon their Opinions by the Natives, who are very quick in their Perception of Character. They examine the Countenance particularly when a Person enters their Place; and, according to their Judgment, they give their Verdict at once, and call one after a Sort of Name, and another another Name; one resembling a Dog, another a Cat, and so on.
By way of giving an Estimate of their Character?
    Yes.
In going through the Country did you observe any large Portion of it cultivated?
    Very small Portions, indeed. Cowa Cowa is a fine Spot; that Plain is almost entirely cultivated by the Natives into Gardens for Potatoes; various Kinds of Potatoes. They have Three Kinds of Potatoes, or rather Four; Three Sorts of the Sweet Potatoes; One indigenous, and Two others brought there; what they call the White Men's Potatoe, which is one Kind, another the common Potatoe, which we have here; but the Spots of Cultivation are very small; perhaps Half an Acre of Ground cultivated in various Spots. The large Bulk of the Land is not cultivated; it is either in wild Fern or Forest.
Does it appear to you there was much uncultivated Land fit for Cultivation?
    There is a great deal fit for Cultivation; but about the Bay of Islands the Land is such that they are not able to cultivate it; it is too dry and hilly. At the ​Top of the Hills there is only diminutive Fern growing; in the Vales I saw large Trees grow in great Abundance. The Forests of Cowri are very fine; one I measured was Twenty-one Feet in Circumference.
Of what Nature is it?
    Of the Pine Kind. That perhaps had not a Branch till it divided into Two, Thirty or Forty Feet above the Surface; then the Branches themselves were of immense Magnitude. That Tree could be seen from a great Distance towering over all the others.
It appears that while you were there Reference was frequently made to the Reverend Henry Williams as a Sort of Mediator there?
    Yes; I have heard him mention the Circumstance of his being called upon to interfere between Two of the native Armies on the Western Coast who were going to Battle; one Chief ran across the Country to him to inform him of the Circumstance. He and Mr. Davies, another of the Missionaries, went over. When they arrived they pitched their Tent just between the Two Armies, with a sort of Pole fixed in the Ground, and a Sheet tied to it as a Flag of Truce. The Natives perfectly understood what it meant; the Chiefs on both sides met at the Tent to discuss Matters, and at the same Time the Army were firing over the Tent, but not to touch each other, only firing into the Air, as it were defying each other. The Result of that Intercession was that both Armies broke up, and each went to his own Territories without fighting. And again at Cororareka, at the Time of the Fight between Titori and Pomore, Mr. Henry Williams knew nothing of the Quarrel until he heard the firing; he immediately went across the Bay (it is about Four Miles), and landed alone; the other Missionaries were afraid to land; he took a long Pole in his Hand, and had a White Pocket Handkerchief tied at the Top of it as a Flag of Truce; he walked up the Beach between the Two Armies, who were then firing, and the Balls whizzing from each Side about him. As soon as they saw he was there the whole of them gave up firing, and there was an End to the Battle at once.
Did it appear to you that Mr. Williams's Influence was as great with the European Population as with the native?
    Whenever Europeans thought themselves aggrieved they went to him for Redress; he had great Influence with the Natives, even in the Estimation of the lowest Class or worse Characters, who thought he had the most Influence of any.
As between them and the Natives?
    Yes. He has no Influence over the English, who are perfectly lawless. Nothing can be more lawless then the Europeans who are there; they frequently lay aside the English Dress, and take up the native Mats, and have promiscuous Intercourse with the Native Women.
Morality is at a low Ebb there?
    At the lowest Ebb; and it is much worse amongst those Tribes where the Sailors frequent than the others. I understand Cororareka Beach is proverbially one of the lowest Places,—one of the most degraded of any, even amongst the Natives themselves, and the Women are very much affected with the Venereal Disease, which is of the most virulent Kind. I apprehend there is not One in Fifty of the Women without the Venereal Disease, and that One, perhaps, may be the Wife of a Chief. Frequently the English will go to the Masters of Vessels; they first of all barter with the Natives, and take their Women on board, and get the highest Price they can for them. One Man I know was in the habit of taking Pigs and Women at the same Time to Vessels; selling the Pigs and the Use of the Women for the Time being all in one Lot; the Women were to return again. Sometimes the Women go to Sea with the Masters of Vessels. Two or Three Instances I know of Masters of Vessels giving as much to their Women as would amount to about 100l. a Year each, and carrying them off with them on their Voyage. Then they leave them on the Island from Time to Time; they go out for Three Months, and leave them there, or take them with them, according as they can agree with the Women themselves. But it is invariably the Case that all the Ships there, speaking generally, have Women on board in great Numbers.
The Missionaries take very little Pains with that Class of Persons?
    Not the slightest; they do not attempt it. They have every possible Ridicule cast upon them by those People; they have abandoned every Attempt to ​improve them, and merely act with the Natives. They have given up arguing with the Masters of Vessels, finding it entirely fruitless.
In what Language is the Communication carried on between the Missionaries and the Natives?
    In the New Zealand Language.
The Missionaries have made themselves Masters of the Language?
    Yes. I think that they are very capable now of communicating Information in that Language; but every Pains is taken by these Men to calumniate the Missionaries, and to get them into Disrepute among the Natives; but the Natives turn against them and contrast their Characters, when they hear any Endeavour of that Kind, and perhaps sometimes they will turn them even out of their Houses when they do it. I have known One Instance of that happening. Pomore turned an Englishman out of his House in consequence of his telling various Falsehoods of the Missionaries, and trying to prejudice the Chief against them. One Englishman there, who is a very intellectual Man, but of the lowest Character, goes into the Interior of the Country, buys Pigs for little or nothing, and brings them down to the Bay to sell again; and I have seen him several Times taking Women on board with the Pigs. But the Chiefs themselves sometimes take their Women and barter with the Captains. The Chief's Relation is generally given to the Master of the Vessel, as being the greatest Compliment. Scrofula is very prevalent among them, but I think it is very much in consequence of having no Medical Treatment; it appears that the swelling of the Glands comes on, and is allowed to proceed without Medical Interference till it becomes a very formidable Disease. I have seen the Effect of Medicines arresting the swelling in several Instances when I was there. I have had a great many come to me to ask my Assistance as a Surgeon .
Are the Small Pox and the Measles known there?
    I have not met with an Instance.
Do you understand that the Natives in New Zealand had ever had an Operation performed on one of them till you performed one on a Woman?
    I have not known an Instance of it, but I have not the slightest Doubt that some have had small Operations performed.
Had you great Difficulty in persuading that Woman to undergo it?
    No; she was very anxious for it.
Spirituous Liquors are now very generally introduced in New Zealand, are they not?
    They are.
Are the Natives often seen in a State of Intoxication?
    The Chiefs are frequently seen in a State of Intoxication, but the others are not able to purchase Spirits sufficiently; they are anxious to get something of more Value
Have not those Persons who have gone over from this Country to reside there been productive of very serious Evil to the Natives?
    Yes, I think they have been productive of very serious Evil indeed.
They sell them as many Muskets and Powder as the Natives can afford to buy?
    Yes.
Was the Use of that Powder in hunting?
    There are no Animals of any Class to hunt; perhaps there is occasionally a Pig running wild, but I should fancy that is very rare, except in the Southern Parts. Where I have been I have never seen one.
Do you think the State of the Morals at the Bay of Islands is a great deal worse than at some of our Sea-port Towns in this Country?
    I do not know; I do not think it can be worse.
Is it worse than in the Ports of New South Wales?
    No; not so bad. I have not known any Case of Sodomy discovered in New Zealand; in Australia that is deemed to be prevalent.
​You have spoken of an Outrage committed on the House of a Resident; might not that Outrage have been caused by the Natives feeling that the Resident did not protect them against the Depredations of the British Residents?
    It might be so; it was not known at that Time what was the Cause; the Party was not known at that Time, but I understood afterwards it turned out that it was one of the Chiefs. I have not heard since what was the Cause, but I understand he has abandoned the Bay in consequence of that Affray being made known.
Have they any Medical Treatment for the Venereal Disease?
    None that I have seen.
If that Disease is allowed to continue in the State in which you say it was, that not One out of Fifty Women was free from it, will not that have the Effect of very much deteriorating the Population of that Country?
    Without Doubt; for the Venereal Disease weakens the Constitution. I do not know of any Disease that weakens it more.
And it has a very great Effect on the Health?
    Yes; and other Diseases are produced by it.
May not that be the Cause why the Natives of New South Wales are so much deteriorated from what the New Zealanders are?
    No. I should fancy that the natural Formation of their intellectual Powers is not so high as that of the New Zealanders.
Do they taboo Lands now when they sell, and put up a Pole to mark the Boundaries?
    I have not known an Instance of that, further than that they put up a Pole to show the Natives that it is sold to the English People. I should understand by the Taboo, making it sacred; that is their Acceptation of the Word. If a Part is tabooed, no Person, on pain of Death, is allowed to enter that Spot; whereas the Natives can traverse the Land sold like any other Spot.
Tabooing was a Superstition originally?
    Yes; and to keep the Remains of their Chiefs, I apprehend, sacred, they put the Remains of their Chiefs on their tabooed Ground; and no one is allowed to touch that Ground. They are as safe there as if they were under a Guard of Soldiers.
Who has the Power of tabooing in that Country?
    The principal Chief.
Not a second-rate Chief?
    No; he may perhaps taboo a Spot in the Absence of the Principal, but he must confirm it when he returns.
Do you know of any Instance in which a Chief has punished a Native for entering Grounds which were tabooed?
    No; but I have known an Instance of a Chief punishing a Native for entering Grounds on which there were Crops; they invariably shut them up during their Potato Season, and no Native is allowed to go in except to clear up the Ground and hoe the Potatoes; and again, they must not have the Taboo taken off before the Potatoes are dug from the Ground.
What was the great Article of Trade in those Islands when you were there?
    With regard to the Shipping, Flax was the greatest Article of Trade; the other Ships merely put in to refresh.
Where does the Flax go to?
    To Sydney chiefly; it grows very luxuriantly in the marshy Grounds.
Is it cultivated?
    No; it grows spontaneously. The Blossom of the Flax is very full of Nectary.
What was their Opinion of your Profession; did they consider that you had a supernatural Power of healing Diseases, or that it was in consequence of the Study of the Art?
    They consider it now to be the Consequence of Study; perhaps they might ​formerly consider it as supernatural, but they consider it now to be in consequence of Education, and they consider themselves fully equal to it if put into the Way of it.
Do the Missionaries know any thing of Surgery?
    Mr. William Williams was brought up a Surgeon.
Does he reside in the same Settlement as his Brother?
    Yes; they have both a great Influence, but Mr. Henry Williams takes the lead in almost all Cases ; he is a very intelligent Man; he has been a Lieutenant in the English Navy, and perhaps that has given him a more determined Character in the Eyes of the Natives.
From your Communication with the Chiefs, do you think that when they sold their Land they had any Idea of parting with the Sovereignty over that Land?
    That is a Question I do not exactly understand. I do not think they understand any thing with regard to the Sovereignty of the Land; but they never thought of possessing it again themselves.
Would they be willing to allow any Persons to make Laws which should coerce them?
    I think they would.
Do you think they would be willing to allow Persons to make Laws which should prevent their going to Battle?
    I have not the slightest Doubt of that.
Do you think they would be willing to allow Persons to make Laws preventing their taking Women on board those Ships, and getting a Profit from those Women?
    That perhaps they would not, in consequence of the Emolument being taken away. They would view it in that Light. If they were to have a Compensation for it they would immediately refrain from sending their Women there for the sake of Emolument.
Those Women are Slaves?
    Chiefly; but they take their own Daughters, even the Chief's Daughters and their own Wives, except their principal Wife.
Do not they now when they go to War take Prisoners who are afterwards made Slaves?
    Yes; and sometimes they eat them as well.
Do they eat them now as much as they used to do?
    No, not so much as they used to do, in consequence of the Instructions of the Missionaries.
When they go to War they consider that they are going on a profitable Speculation to get more Slaves?
    It is chiefly to revenge some Injury; if they receive an Injury, however humble the Individual, the whole Tribe must revenge it.
Do the Tribes mix much together?
    Yes; they pass from one to another. They entertain each other very hospitably.
Do you know the Amount of Land in that Country now the Property of Europeans?
    I do not know; I understand that there have been great Purchases made since I left.
In your Opinion of the Land you know, which had been sold there at the Time and before you were there, was a fair and a proper Price given for it?
    I have no Doubt that the Natives considered it so; they are perfectly satisfied with the Price.
Can you say the Price a native Chief thinks he ought to get; how many Muskets or Axes he ought to get for 100 Acres of good Land near the Sea?
    Perhaps on one of his best Spots he would get Three or Four Muskets and Three or Four Axes, and a Barrel of Powder. Mr. Trapp's Spot contains 80 or 100 Acres, and he gave but a Trifle for it; it is not one of the best Spots; ​but I think it was a Barrel of Powder and some Tobacco he gave. He had not the Power of giving much. He gave a Musket for cutting the Wood and carrying it down to build his House, which he built himself.
Supposing a Man commits an Outrage, how is that Man tried; is it by his Chief, or is there any Form of Trial?
    I do not know that there is any Form of Trial, but he is knocked on the Head at once with a Mari; if they detect him in Crime he is killed without Ceremony.
Are there many Europeans that are killed in Frays?
    No; they never kill the Europeans, to my, Knowledge; they are very tenacious of retaining them in their Tribes, for the sake of the Emolument they procure them. These Men make their Bargains with the Masters of Vessels, and get perhaps a higher Price than they can themselves.
Suppose in drunken Quarrels a certain Number of the Natives and Sailors quarrel, how is that settled?
    In the best way they can. I have seen Affrays of that Kind. The Chief would interfere, and perhaps demand some Reparation; they would separate the Combatants, and demand from the Masters of the Sailors some Reparation for the Assault.
Do the Masters give that Reparation?
    Sometimes they do; sometimes they threaten them with so much Vengeance that they are glad to let them go away; they threaten to bring the Ship alongside and give them a Broadside; and in various Islands they do that, but in New Zealand it has not been done so frequently, and perhaps from the determined Character of the Natives. I recollect one Captain who had been in the Sandwich Islands; I heard him relate the Tale himself; his Mate quarrelled, and the Natives detained him; the Missionaries thought he ought to pay for the various Debts he had contracted; the Master of the Vessel immediately sent Word that if they did not instantly release his Mate he would bring his Vessel alongside and destroy them all; the Missionaries endeavoured to interfere, and point out the Enormity of the Crime; the Master turned round upon them at once, and said if they did not suffer him to do as he liked he should fire upon them also; the Missionaries advised the Chief to give up the Mate and prevent Injury.
Do the Captains pay for those Women beforehand?
    No; afterwards, or just as they are going away. Frequently during the Time of Intercourse they give them Presents. A Chief sometimes has a Payment beforehand; and sometimes the Women have a Payment beforehand, a Cotton Shirt, or something in the Shape of a Petticoat, given them, just to wear while they are on board; they are very fond of having any thing of the Kind, to appear as much as they can in the European Garb.
You have spoken of the Extent to which the Venereal Disease prevails in the Island, and the Effect it must have to depopulate the Country; is it the Fact that the Depopulation been extremely rapid within the last few Years?
    It is supposed it is more rapid than Europeans can account for; but I do not know how far that is the Case. I should fancy that at the Time Captain Cook was there a Ship was so great a Novelty that the Inhabitants from every Part were collected. From this Circumstance I suppose, that when I went among the Natives the People would call out, “A Chief of the White People,” and another, hearing that, would repeat the Saying, and so it would go round the whole Village till all were collected; and hence I should apprehend that Captain Cook saw, when he was there, a great many more People than lived in the Place itself.
You did not find that within the Memory of Man whole Districts had become depopulated?
    I do not doubt the Fact altogether; there may have been Depopulation, but it is impossible to assign a Cause sufficient for it.
You are not aware of it from your own personal Knowledge?
    I am not.
​Has Christianity advanced to any very great Extent in the Neighbourhood of the Missionary Establishments?
    It has advanced to a very considerable Extent, I understand, since I left that Island; but the Christian Doctrine is not perhaps sufficiently understood among The Natives. The Missionaries have much Influence among the Natives, as teaching them the various Arts — Carpentry and Blacksmithery, and so on. I think the Natives esteem the Missionaries as much for their moral Character as their mechanical Knowledge.
Do you find that where the Influence of the Missionaries has been great there has been a Decrease in their mutual Wars, and their Manners have been softened?
    Yes. The Chiefs who have embraced the Christian Doctrine, I believe I may venture to say positively, do not go to War.
Do you know how many Vessels have touched in the course of a Year?
    I do not; but I have seen the Amount in Mr. Busby's Account, I believe there were upwards of 100; but at one Time there were Thirty or more.
What is the Species of Tree they have?
    It is a Species of the Pine Kind.
Those Forests are a good deal in the Hands of British Subjects, are they not?
    Some of them are. Those I have seen are in the Hands of the Natives, except Hukianga; a great many of those are in the Hands of British Subjects.
You have spoken of the general Immorality of the Settlers; besides that, is not open Violence frequent, such as Theft, Robbery, and so on?
    Yes.
Has that been directed against the Settlers themselves and against the Zealanders?
    Yes. Mr. Mayor was in the habit of having his Stores broken open by the runaway Sailors; and he had a Band of Natives to protect his Stores, who kept watch for him.
Do you consider that that State of Things has been a considerable Hindrance to the Progress of the Christian Religion among the Natives?
    Nothing can be of more considerable Hindrance to the Progress of Religion among the Natives than that they throw every Obstacle they can in the Way of the Spread of Christian Doctrines, by all Sorts of Falsehood and Calumny.
Do you conceive that a New Zealander, in selling his Land, is enabled to make a fair Bargain with an European, considering the existing Circumstances of the Island?
    Yes.
Do you think he is as competent to deal with an European as another European would be?
    Yes, quite so; they examine very minutely into the Case, and if they can take any possible Advantage in selling their Land they will do it.
You say that every Relative of the Chief must be satisfied with the Purchase before the Purchase can be completed?
    Yes; they must all be satisfied, and every one who has a Claim must have some Part of the Payment.
How does he testify his Satisfaction?
    He generally says, “Very good,” in his own Language.
There is a Meeting at which they express their Assent?
    Yes; the Chief calls a general Meeting of all who have Claims upon the Land, to receive the Money, and distributes the Payment among them.
All the Missionary Establishments are in the North Island, are they not?
    They are.
Have you been on the South Island?
    I have not. The Missionaries themselves, I believe, have not been much upon the South Island; it is very little known, I believe.
​You say the Natives have not any thing in the Nature of a native Manufacture of Ropes?
    They have not what may be called a native Manufactory, but each Person makes Ropes for himself; but at the same Time that they have Ropes of their own they esteem ours superior.
Do not they make remarkably good Fishing Lines; so good that our People here supply themselves with them?
    The Fishing Lines are very good, and the Fishing Nets also. They make very fine Nets, which they sell to Ships; but their Lines are used on board as Matter of Convenience more than for any particular Purpose; but the Flax is capable of making very superior Lines.
Their Lines are made without their being taught by Europeans?
    Yes; they make them very well, and very compact.
Have they any Metals?
    No. They have a Sort of Agate, which they polish and cut into various Shapes, and sometimes they tie it to their Persons. A Piece of that may be handed down from one Generation to another as a Relic of very great Value; if a Chief has received it from his Great Grandfather, or some very great Chief before him, he esteems it, and will not part with it on any Condition.
Have they any thing that supplies the Place of the useful Metals?
    That is the most like to cutting Instruments.
Would it answer the Purpose of Edge Tools?
    They make them similar to our Bill-hook or Tomahawk, and they answer various useful Purposes.
Have you ever heard it supposed that there are Mines in any part of the Country; is there any thing showing Mineral Formation?
    In all the Streams I have crossed on the Island, Iron Ore was found in great Abundance.
But no Attempt had been made to work it?
    No. The Pyrites of Iron was also very common; but the common Red Ore, the Bicarbonate, was frequently met with; everywhere I went I saw it.
Was there any Sign of precious Metals?
    I have not seen any. The Cornelian is very common, the Western Side; the Red and White Cornelian; the Red especially.
In buying Land do the Europeans generally seek out the Neighbourhood of Native Settlements, or take it apart?
    They generally try to find out the best Spot, or the most convenient; sometimes they study Convenience; at other Times the Richness of the Soil.
You have said that in one Instance a Musket was given for clearing; is the Land generally bought quite uncleared?
    Yes; unless there may be a little Garden of the Natives on the Spot; but in general it is uncleared.
The Missionary Farm at Waimati was bought uncleared; and when I went there there was a Chief, I think of the Name of Rippi, volunteered, with the whole of his Tribe, Men, Women, and Children, to clear the Land for Mr. Davies, in the Expectation of receiving some trifling Present, such as a Gown Piece for the Women.
By clearing, you mean cutting down the Timber?
    Yes; and getting up the Roots of the Fern, that the Land may be ploughed.
Is the Land thought more valuable for bearing a certain Quantity of Pine upon it?
    Yes; the Europeans esteem that Land very much, inasmuch as they esteem the Cowrie themselves, and it is found at the same Time that the Leaves and decayed Vegetation make the Surface of the Land very good. In some Parts the Cowrie Forests are very steep; the Hills are not high, but they rise almost from the Brook to the Top of the Hill, at an Angle, perhaps, of Thirty or Forty Degrees; sometimes Forty-five.
​It is a great Advantage to have a certain Quantity of Timber upon an Estate?
    A great Advantage. The English frequently will purchase Land for their Convenience, and endeavour to have the Forest of Cowrie within the Trust.
Do you know whether the Natives generally seek out the Settlements of Europeans, and establish themselves near the Whites?
    No; I have not known any Instance of that; but the Whites generally seek out the Natives, and place themselves near them, in order to have promiscuous Intercourse with the Women; and they live in their Houses, and not in those built by themselves.
Do you refer to those who have bought Land?
    Those Persons build Houses upon their own Land.
Do the Natives come and live near them?
    No; they do not come near them at all, in that Case, to reside near them. They will not reside where the Europeans are, unless they will afford some Part of their Time to their Instruction. For instance, there is one Family there of the Name of Powditch, another of the Name of Mayor; Mr. Powditch never could keep any native Servants; Mr. Mayor always had native Servants, as many as he thought proper to keep. The Reason the Natives assigned to me was, that Powditch cared nothing for their Instruction, only for his own Emolument; that Mr. Mayor gave up his Time in a great measure to their Instruction, therefore it was their Duty to do something for him.
They were Servants quite free to go?
    Yes; but when the English People go there they frequently purchase Slaves, and keep them as their own Property afterwards. The Chiefs frequently sell their Dependants in that Way; sometimes getting a Musket for them.
It is Slavery in fact?
    It is Slavery; but they are in a better Condition with the English than with their own Masters. In many Instances an Englishman pays them no Wages.
Is that done to a great Extent?
    That is done everywhere, I believe.
What Proportion of European Women are there among the lower Class of Sailors?
    None at all. The European Women, if they go there, will not stay. I never knew any Instance but One of that Kind. She was in the Country with an English Person; she came from Hobart Town, and went away with him.
There are some European Women, the Missionaries Wives?
    Yes, and a few others.
Those are respectable Persons?
    O yes, their Character is unblemished.
When a Chief sells his Land, does he consider himself as foregoing all Title to further Right over that Land that would otherwise have belonged to him as Chief?
    I have no Doubt he does; he gives up the whole Possession. With regard to the Government Part, I cannot say whether that is well understood or not; perhaps he has no Idea of that; but with regard to the Possession of the Land, he has not the slightest Idea of ever possessing it again.
He ceases to exercise upon the Land so sold any Authority?
    Yes; his Authority ceases from the Moment of selling the Land. Kiri Kiri exemplified that; the Chief gave up the Land after being sold, and emigrated to East Cape.
Though that Land so sold amounts to considerable Tracts, the whole of it is left without any Law or Authority whatever?
    Without the slightest. Where a large native Village used to be on that Spot, when I visited it there were not Half a Dozen native Houses to be seen.
​Did the inferior Natives claim Rights in the Houses, or Property in the Land?
    Not any, I believe.
They do not share in the Value of the Houses or Property the Chief sells?
    Not at all; only the Relations of the Chief.
Have you ever been present when a Bargain has been struck for Land?
    I have not.
Have you been yourself a Proprietor of Land?
    They offered me several Times to make me a Present of Land if I would stay with them; and they offered me to cut down One of the Trees, if I thought proper, to take it to England.
Are there any large continuous Tracts of Land which have been sold there, or are they only in small detached Parcels?
    In small detached Parcels, generally; that at the Kiri Kiri is, I understand, one of the largest; it was one of the largest when I was there ; but I have since heard there are very large Tracts sold lately.
In speaking of the Sales of Land, there are Two Sorts of Chiefs, the upper and inferior Chiefs?
    There are.
Can the inferior Chiefs sell the Land without the Consent of their Superiors?
    No; they are not capable of selling any Spot of Land without the Consent of the superior Chief, if there is any Claim upon it. Sometimes there are inferior Chiefs in Possession of Land under the Protection of the Superior, and they have been Chieftains at some former Time, but having been weakened in Battle have thrown themselves under the Protection of the principal Chief. They may possess Land independent of the principal Chief; I believe that is the Fact in some Instances.
You understood no Inferior possessed of Land can sell it without the Consent of the Head of his Tribe?
    I believe not.
What Number of European Traders, do you suppose, there are settled in New Zealand?
    They are much more numerous now than when I was there; when I was there there were at the Bay itself about Five.
By Traders, you mean those who sold Stores to Ships or Vessels of that Kind?
    Yes; that is the Nature of the Business carried on at that Time, except those who kept what are called the Grog Shops.
Including those, how many were there?
    I cannot say, for almost all the runaway Convicts did that when they could.
They are settled at the Bay of Islands?
    Whenever they could purchase Grog from the Vessels, they sold it to the Chiefs or anybody. Whenever one of them had a small Keg of Rum, he made it known to the others; so that every one there in his Turn was a Grog Shopkeeper.
You state that there were 400 or 500 European Sailors and Convicts?
    Yes.
Some of those are settled among the Tribes?
    Yes.
Are the others that live in their own Houses a great Number?
    Very few.
What Number of Proprietors of Land are there?
    All those are Proprietors of Land, I believe, to a greater or less Extent.
Are there any Englishmen settled there as the Proprietors of Land?
    Yes.
​When you were there, in 1834, you state that the European Population consisted of Five or Six Traders, the Missionaries, and 400 or 500 European Sailors and Convicts?
    Yes. There were other English Residents in Hokianga and Wangaroo, and various other Parts, and about the Thames; there were a few there again of Traders; I cannot exactly enumerate the Traders, but they were very few.
You spoke of Clendon's Store being broken open; did you understand he had given Provocation to the Natives?
    Yes.
It was not a mere Act of Robbery?
    No; it was to revenge some Act of Provocation he had committed.
Can you state whether the Natives are in the habit of selling Land to one another?
    I do not know that; but when the Chief is overcome in Battle his Land is confiscated to the Conqueror.
You are not aware of their exchanging Territories for a Value given?
    I do not know any Instance of the Kind.
Do the Ships which visit the Bay of Islands touch there chiefly for Refreshment, or carrying on Trade?
    For Refreshment, and to trade a little also. There are some Ships from Sydney going there exclusively for Flax; and they took Potatoes up to Sydney in 1834. The Soil in Sydney was very dry; they had no Potatoes there; a great many were sent from New Zealand.
Was there much Timber exported when you were there?
    Not any at that Time, except a few Cargoes to the Coast of South America, and One or Two to London, as well as for His Majesty's Ships.
Have you been in any other Islands of the Pacific?
    In several of them.
Have you been in the Sandwich Islands?
    I have not.
Many other Islands in the Pacific suffer as much Inconvenience as New Zealand from the runaway Convicts, do they not?
    Quite as much, and many more. At Rotwma, a small Island to the North of New Zealand, where the Natives are remarkably mild in their Manners; I have not found any so nearly approaching to civilized Nations; they have a good Government, which we may call a rotatory Monarchy; about Ten Prime Chiefs, who take the Government alternately, and the Ex-chief is to be Prime Minister to the present King.
Do you suppose the Evils incident to the Residence of those Convicts would not be considerably diminished if there were a Resident at One principal Place who had the Power to arrest them?
    There is no Doubt that if Mr. Busby had the Power to arrest and send them away they would be soon frightened; I think they would not come there.
Do you suppose the native Chiefs would assist in arresting such Persons?
    They do now. If any Person runs away from a Ship, and a sufficient Reward is offered to induce the Chiefs to bring the Person back, they will be sure to bring him back.
Suppose an European to commit any Robbery or Injury to another, would the Chiefs assist in the Apprehension of that Man?
    The Chiefs might, if they were bribed and paid for it, but not otherwise; but if a Native were to commit any Depredation of that Kind upon the English, and a Resident interfered, they would do all they could to bring him back.
Do you think they would interfere to prevent the Arrest of a European, if the King's Resident sent a Force to take him?
    If he sent a Force I do not think they would; but if he merely asked them, if he did not bribe them at the same Time, I do not think they would assist him.
​Would the Resident require any large armed Force to carry into effect his Orders?
    Very little. Two People sent by the Resident would bring any Man from any Part of the Island; I do not think they would endeavour to resist in the slightest Degree; but now they know he has no Power they will not attempt to help him.
If he had a legal Authority from our Government he would not require a large armed Force to carry it into execution?
    Very little indeed, I think, as the Tribes are very friendly to English Gentlemen there.
Do you happen to remember any Instance in which a Settler has purchased Land from a Native, and before he has made any Improvement has parted with it to another Settler?
    I do not know any Instance of that Kind without his making a slight Improvement, such as building a House. That Spot Mr. Trapp purchased comes very near that.
Was the Difference of Price very great?
    In Mr. Trapp's Case he has not sold the Land to the other Occupant, merely given him Power to occupy during the Time of his Absence.
Do you know what Consideration was given for the Permission to occupy?
    There was no Consideration given by the Person to whom the Permission was granted; he had been kind to Mr. Trapp when in Distress.
Are there any Schools in the Island?
    Only the Missionary Schools, which are Schools connected with the Mission.
Have you been in those Schools?
    I have been in their Schools on the Sundays; they have Day Schools only for their own Children. I have been in the Sunday School where they taught their own Children and the native Children together; the native Children appeared to make as great Progress as their own Children.
Are the Children of Slaves allowed to attend?
    Any Children are allowed to attend.
If a Plot of Land were sold, and Iron were found in great Quantities, do you conceive that the Chief would conceive that he had sold all the Iron which should be discovered under it?
    Most undoubtedly; I think he would consider every Right to the Land as entirely done away.
He is not aware that Iron is likely to be found there?
    I think not.
Is there any Congress which professes to legislate for the whole Island?
    No; each Chief legislates for his own Portion.
Are the Customs and Laws completely different in different Portions of the Island?
    The Customs and Laws appear to be very much alike, and they seem to be remarkably tenacious of them, and they initiate their Children into them in very early Days. It is very amusing to see them teaching their Children; they will teach their Children as if they were old Persons, and in return hear them as patiently as if they were old People speaking, allowing the Child to ask any Questions.
They have no Persons there to expound the Laws?
    No; they appear to have Councils or annual Meetings or Feasts there. Chiefs of various Tribes meet together and speak at great Length; perhaps some of their Chiefs occupy Two or Three Hours in speaking; they take various Topics in hand; sometimes on the Subject of the Wars, sometimes on other Subjects; all Sorts of Subjects generally.
​Is there any kind of Connexion or Reasoning in those long Discourses?
    Yes. I fancy from the little I could understand of the Language, and what I have heard, they reason very acutely indeed; and they have their Assistants to sit with them as Reporters to assist them to remember the Speech. In case they would forget something they would refer to their Friends, who are to remember as much as they can, but others are to remember other Points.
Where you find a Tribe at all under the Influence of Christianity, do you find that it is a divided Worship, or that they have thrown away their Idols?
    That they have entirely thrown away their Idols; and some have built Churches of their own Accord. The Church at Paihia is Three Times the Size of this Room; I have seen that quite full; and I have seen Canoes going on the Sunday Morning with Natives to various Villages around; the Canoe had perhaps Five or Six Natives going together; one would be put down at one Village and another of them at another, till all had left but the last, who would go a little further; he would remain till he thought it Time to return to the respective Settlements, calling for those he had left, so that each one would be reading the Prayers and so on with the various Natives.
Are the Slaves, when they get into European Hands, content with their Lot generally?
    If they are well treated they will be content, if not they will run away.
What is done in that Case?
    I believe they are allowed to go, an English Person thinking it not worth his while to keep them by Force.
You have never known an Instance of a European Proprietor wishing to get back a refractory Slave?
    I have not.
Would they have any Means of getting them back?
    Not without the Interference of the first Owner.
Would the Natives harbour him?
    Frequently. If they thought he had been ill-used they would help him by all Means, and sometimes Retribution for the Ill-usage would be demanded.
What is done with the Wives of the Slaves?
    They generally go with the Slaves for household Work; but the Slaves, in Purchases of that Kind, have no Wives frequently. Most of the Slaves have no regular Wives; they merely have promiscuous Intercourse with the Women.
Is that the Case with the Masters themselves?
    The Chief has frequently Five or Six Women as Wives, but frequently he has promiscuous Intercourse with the other Women.
It is not considered a great Offence?
    No, not on the Part of a White; but if a Slave has promiscuous Intercourse with the Chief's Wives it is considered a great Offence, and he is punished with Death.
Do you think the Slaves in the Hands of Europeans are treated as well as with the Natives?
    They are better treated generally, setting aside the Instruction; but they will not stay with any Person who will not instruct them; they run away.
They are better treated in other respects?
    Yes.
Do they purchase Slaves with the Property?
    No, not with the Property; they agree with the Chiefs independently of the Property.
You say an immense Number of the Chiefs and Natives have the Venerea Disease?
    Yes, a great many; but there are more of the Women who have the Disease than the Men. I should think there are very few of the Women who do not suffer under it.
​They have no Remedy at all?
    None that I have seen.
Then when it is once contracted it goes on?
    Yes, to Destruction; unless they are fortunate enough to meet with an English Surgeon, who enables them to get rid of it.
The Venereal Disease, with a Person inclined to Scrofula, is much worse?
    Yes; a slight Disease, such as Gonorrhæa, will, perhaps, run its Course; but when it comes to Syphilis it will not run its Course without Injury to the Constitution.
Have you seen many old People there?
    I have seen some.
Did they appear a long-lived Race?
    Their Hair was White, and they appeared to be aged.
The Venereal Disease would have a great Effect upon the People?
    It must have a very great Effect; it has more Effect in destroying the Constitution of the Natives than perhaps any other Disease to which they are subject.
How do you account for there not being the Small Pox among them?
    I do not know; except from the Length of Time that the People have been on their Voyage from Europe; but I am not quite clear upon that Subject.
Did you see any who had lost their Hands or Legs by Operations or Wounds?
    I have not seen one; I should think if that was the Case in their Wars they would die.
They do not know even the Rudiments of Surgery?
    No. They are very subject to Abscesses in consequence of their Tendency to Scrofula, and I have never seen them attempt to open them.
Did you see any Attempt to administer the Aid of Medicine in any Way from Herbs?
    They have some Herbs; I have seen them use some Herbs for Coughs and Affections of the Lungs, and any Ailment of that Kind, where they think a Person is very ill; I have seen a low Fever bordering on the mild Typhus Kind, and I have seen them administer Medicines; and I have seen a Boil on the Face, merely a small Inflammation, I have seen them apply a Species of Herbs to that; that is the only Use I have seen made of any Medicine.
You have stated that in some of the Negotiations for the Sale of Land, Parts of the Price were distributed; could you make out what it was that gave any Individual a Right to have a Portion of the Price?
    They considered that they had a Right to have a Portion of the Purchase Money.
Who particularly was considered as entitled, and what gave him that Sort of Title?
    I could not make that out.
Was it in consequence of any previous Arrangement of the Parties?
    Sometimes it was in consequence of Marriage.
Is it in this Way : that there is a Chief with a considerable Number of Chieftains, who are bound to go to War when the Chief calls upon them?
    Yes, exactly so; they are obliged to go in case of their being called.
A great deal of the Land belongs to the Chieftains?
    Yes.
The Chieftain has no Power over it, however?
    The Chieftain has, perhaps, no Power over it; but he signs the Title.
Have any Persons, who are neither Principal Chiefs nor Sub-Chiefs, the Power of acquiring Land?
    There are no Persons in Possession of Land there, I believe, who are not Chiefs.
​Is the Chieftainship, and the consequent Right to the Possession of Lands, hereditary?
    Decidedly. It is in consequence of the Wars. If they take any Chiefs they become Slaves; but if they marry some of the Chieftains Relations, some of the chief Women, they are then denominated as Chieftains; and their Consent must be given so far as to sell any Portion of the Land which has been conquered.
The Lands are held by a Sort of feudal Tenure?
    By something very much of that Kind.
If an Englishman purchases Land, does the Chief expect him to assist him in any War?
    Not at all; he is esteemed as a Chief on his own Account; he is treated as a Chief.
He is considered as a Chief, and not a Chieftain or Second Chief?
    Just so. Mr. Henry Williams, particularly, is considered as a Principal Chief; and I may say the Missionaries, generally.
They consider them as invested with the Power of Chiefs; making War, for instance?
    They consider that he can call upon the English Government, and send for Soldiers there, at any Time; indeed the Missionaries hold out a slight Idea that they can send home, in case of any Emergency, that they may not consider them as cast away—they give that Idea out; for instance, they say if you will not do so and so, we will write home, and have Power here to set it to rights; as much as to say, Government will take cognizance of any Injury committed on our Property.
Your Evidence applies principally or entirely to the Northern Part of the North Island?
    Yes; the Southern Island, I understand, from what I have heard, is very little known; I have not visited any part of that.
Do the Natives attribute the Venereal Disease to their Intercourse with Europeans?
    They do.
It is stated in Print that even the Children of Natives, under the Care of the Missionaries, have been swept away in that Manner; are you aware of that Fact?
    I have heard of that since I was there ; but I have not met with any Fact, and could not hear of any such Fact. When I was there, there had been no Instance of Europeans dying there; but since I have left, Mr. Davies's Wife has died. The Missionaries have been there nearly Thirty Years, and the Natives particularly spoke of that, and drew my Attention to it several Times, that they thought that Europeans had wonderful Health, and their Constitution was admirably adapted to the Country; but that I attribute entirely to the Mildness of the Climate; it is very mild.
It is a healthy Climate, generally?
    Very healthy.
Also, as far as the Missionaries are concerned, are they healthy?
    Yes; they are cleanly in their Habits; just as Persons in the middling Classes here.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.