# Report from the Select Committee on Steam Carriages/Gordon

Mr. Alexander Gordon, called in; and Examined.
Are you an Engineer?—I am.
Have you had much experience in the propelling Carriages, on common roads, by Steam?—My principal experience in that has been whilst observing what Mr. Gurney has done. I have also been connected with locomotive Engines, for which my father took out patents in 1822 and 1824; and also with an Engine that Mr. Brown attempted to propel by a gas vacuum Engine in 1824, 1825 and 1926. I have not had time to prepare a drawing, but I have made a small sketch of two distinct patents (producing the same) which my father had in 1822 and 1824. The one in 1822 was a machine, with a small high pressure Engine in a drum; as the drum advanced with a rolling motion, it moved, before it, a carriage body on two wheels, attached to the front of the large rolling drum. Subsequently, in 1824, my father discontinued his former plan, and took out another patent, in which his object was to substitute propellers instead of the driving wheel; for that purpose he had propelling legs in the middle of the locomotive Engine, similar to horses' legs and feet, working through the bottom of the body of the Carriage against the ground, thus propelling the Carriage onward. Mr. Gurney's progress in 1826 and 1827 showed clearly that this arrangement was not necessary in every case, but that one of the wheels of the Carriage, when attached to the Steam Engine, had a sufficient hold of the ground to give progressing motion to the Carriage without using propellers; and the introduction of that invention has subsequently been given up by me in consequence.
Have both the plans you have given in been given up?—Both. They were given up from prudential motives on my own part, as it was an expensive business to proceed with them. Mr. Gurney had made such great advances that it would have been throwing away money I think to have gone on further with them. I found that the propelling feet, shown in the ​middle of the Engine, do more injury to the roads than the propelling wheels.
Have you been engaged in running Stage Coaches?—I was engaged in running a Stage Coach with horses four years ago, and since this Committee commenced their examination. I have been making some calculations as to the comparative wear and tear of the road by horses' feet and coach wheels; and I consider that the tear and wear of the horses' shoes is very much greater than that of the tires of the wheels. I know it to be so. A set of tires will run 3,000 miles in good weather, or on the average 2,700 miles, while a set of horses' shoes will travel only 200 miles. Take the square inches of the rubbing surface: I think the rubbing surface of the wheel, on an ordinary road, to be somewhere about sixteen square inches; I am taking a gravelly road.
Do you mean to say that if a coach was standing still, there would be a segment of the wheel of eight inches touching the ground?—On a gravelly road, with a dished wheel, it is about that; and I take the average of sixteen square inches, because all tires are not limited to two inches width: some of them are a little more; I take sixteen inches as the standard on the average quality of roads.
You state that eight inches of the wheel are imbedded in the road, in ordinary cases?—That is the fact. I took the whole together at the average.—With the front wheels it would not be so much, on all occasions, as on the hind wheels. I take the average, allowing for this variation.
Do you give this answer from actual experiments?—From observation.
Having measured that part of the wheel which touches the road?—I cannot say that I have put my rule to it; but I mean to say a segment of eight inches is pretty accurate. If it is on a perfectly hard road, in dry weather the road will almost be a mere tangent to the circle; but on a soft road, in damp weather, the wheel will make more or less of a rut, and the average depth of the rut will give the average for the segment.
​Will you give the proportion of surface for the horses' feet?—I think twelve square inches superficial for one horse-shoe. I cannot say that I have measured it.
What is the weight of the Carriage which you say imbeds itself eight inches?—I take the weight of the ordinary Post Coaches, when fully loaded, to be somewhere about three tons. I principally rest my opinion, as to the comparative tear and wear, upon the wear of the horses' shoes when compared with the wear of the tires. A horse, after a run of 200 miles must be shod; and after a run of 3,000 miles, in dry weather, a coach must have new tires.
From thence you infer, that the wear of the two is in proportion to those numbers?—I think it must be thereabout; that is, setting aside altogether for the present, the consideration, that the horse's movement is a series of thumps and picks, while the wheel is a roller.
Is not the iron of the wheel thicker than that of the horse's shoe?—Yes; to keep the wheel firm.
Do you not infer, from the action of the horse's hoof upon the road, that the injury would be great in proportion?—I think that the action of the horse's foot on the ground is more destructive to the road: there is more tear and wear to the road by the horse's shoe than by the tire. In rolling two tons along the ground, on four wheels, there will be less damage done than by driving four horses without drawing any thing after them along the same ground.
Have you made any observations as to the relative wear of the shoes of riding horses compared with those of horses employed in Carriages?—No; I now speak from circumstances which came to my knowledge when I was connected with running a stage.
Have you had an opportunity of comparing the wear of the wheels of a Steam Carriage with the wear of the wheels of a Carriage, supposing they run equal distances and carry equal weight?—I have seen Mr. Gurney's proceedings from the beginning to the present time, and in riding with him. I have very narrowly observed the driving wheel to see whether it ​ever made a surd, (that is to say) made a slip or missed its hold of the ground, and that has so seldom happened, that I do not think it can do much more injury than any other wheel, indeed I might say none; if it does it is very trifling. You speak of the propelling wheel?—Yes.
Do you know the weight of Mr. Gurney's Carriage?—I know the weight of Mr. Gurney's Carriage from having been told. I take the weight of Mr. Gurney's present locomotive Engine when it carries six or eight persons, to be nearly as heavy as an ordinary four-horse Carriage without the weight of its horses, that is about three tons with coke, water and passengers.
Are you speaking of the comparative injury to the roads done by Mr. Gurney's Carriage and a four-horse Coach?—Yes.
Which do you think does most injury to the road?—I should think it must be the same thing, carrying a great weight on any four wheels of equal diameters and surfaces; it will amount to the same thing.
Does not that suppose that the tire is of the same width?—I take the tires to be the same.
That is independent of the four horses?—Yes.
Then the injury done by the four horses is in addition?—Yes.
Have you observed what the proportion is of the damage done by four horses drawing a Coach and the four wheels of a Coach?—I cannot say that I: have made any observation upon that further than the tear and wear of the shoes, and the tire. I have seen the ruts in a narrow road and the horses' path between them; viewing these and viewing the towing path on the side of a Canal and between the rails of a Railroad. I should think that the horses do fully more harm than the wheels.
Do you think that the action of the horses' feet on a towing-path will do more injury than on a road?—Yes; but the action of a horse's feet on a towing-path is not quite the same as when he is carrying a weight or pulling a weight directly after him. The horse hauling on a canal has a motion sideways, and ​leans to the side farthest from the boat, platting his feet; this is a more destructive action than that of horses' feet on a road.
Have you found that there is any tendency to slip in Mr. Gurney's Carriages in going up a hill covered with new stones?—When the surface of the road is pot firm, there is a tendency to slip; and when I said there was merely a fraction more of injury done by that wheel than by the others. I was taking such cases into account.
Do you think that the injury that Steam Carriages do to the roads will be exactly in proportion to their different weights, taking the same breadth of the tire?—I cannot state the proportion; if you increase the weight, you must increase the breadth of the tire; at different speeds the injury will differ.
Taking the same breadth of tires, and the same velocity, do you conceive the injury to the road increases in exact proportion to the weight; for instance, that a Steam Carriage of two tons will do only half the injury that a Coach of four tons would do?—I do not know that it will be exactly in these proportions, but it will be somewhat similar.
Then supposing that a Steam Coach carrying two tons, had tires of a breadth of three inches, and that a Steam Coach carrying four tons, had the tires of the wheels of the breadth of six inches; do you think that the injury would be proportionate?—I think that there would be nearly the same amount of injury.
Suppose you increase the weight so as to break through the crust of the road?—If you put a very heavy weight, you will break the crust of the road altogether, no doubt.
Do you think that could be obviated by increasing the breadth of the tire of the wheel?—To a certain extent; but you may increase the weight so much as to pulverize the material of the road, even with a broad tire.
Have the observations you have made been founded on actual experiment or not?—It is on observation; I have observed the action of Mr. Gurney's wheels very narrowly on the roads, because I was interested ​in another patent that was to introduce propellers in the middle of the locomotive Engine, as shown in the drawing produced.
Have you observed them under different ascertained weights?—No great variety.
Upon an ordinary road is the injury done by a Stage Coach or by a Steam Carriage so great as to be apparent at each time that Carriage travels along the road?—Whenever you see a mark left by a wheel you are entitled to say there is an injury done to the road to the extent of the rut.
Do you state that if it is merely a mark on the soft surface of the road?—Yes; from the wheel being at all imbedded in the soil; the water gets in and soaks its way through. If it is in frosty weather, the water and the damp get down, and the alternate freezing and melting destroys the road.
In an ordinary road is the impression of the wheel of a Stage Coach upon the solid surface of the road so great as to make the injury apparent every time the Carriage passes over it?—It is apparent to me, because wherever there is a mark upon the road there is a consequent injury.
Whether that mark is merely the impression of the wheel on the soft mud or dust, or by crushing the materials?—Wherever the road is damp the consequence of the mark, hower slight, tends to destroy the road.
Do you mean whether on the soft mud on the road, or on the solid substance?—The road must be destroyed to some extent; I do not say that it is perceptible. If you put out of consideration the surface, the mere mud, it is not perhaps perceptible at the time, but there must be tear and wear going on on the road, or it will last for ever. I do not now talk of the action of the elements.
On what data do you state that the Steam Carriage does not do more injury than the wheels of a Stage Coach?—Because it does not make a deeper rut.
Does either of them make a rut?—If you suppose the road to be a concrete mass, and that there is ​merely a little mud and dust on the top of it. I cannot prove that a four-horse Coach does any perceptible injury to that road. I will say also a Steam Carriage will, in a similar case, do no perceptible injury to it.
Of course if the road was composed of solid rock you would not be able to tell whether a Coach of any description had gone over, there being no mark left, bat talking of ordinary turnpike roads, should you be able to trace the indentation that Coach made?—Yes.
Would you not be able to do the same with a Steam Carriage?—Yes; there are some roads in England, a part of the Holyhead road, for instance, so wel made that you cannot trace any vestige of injury done in good weather. A part of Mr. Telford's road there is a concrete mass.
Do you know whether that road has ever been mended since it was first made?—I suppose it has.
Should you not say that the injury done to the road by a Carriage passing over it, depends greatly on the state of that road whether damp or dry, or otherwise?—Certainly.
Are there any states in which a road is placed in which no injury is done by a Carriage passing over it, take the case of a hard frost for instance?—No perceptible injury is done in that case. If the road is so hard that the wheel makes no mark upon it.—But where the road is at all soft, and when the wheel sinks into that road it must tend to destroy the road, if it be merely in mud on the surface of the road, it is making a cistern to hold a puddle of water.
The greatest injury done to the road will be just after the breaking up of a frost?—Yes; or in fact after the effect of the frost, the water having got into the interstices, has been frozen and expanded. When it thaws the road is not so compact, it is soft and pulpy.
That is the state in which the greatest injury will be done to the road by a heavy weight passing over it?—Yes.
Have you ever, in such a particular state of the road, observed the injury done by a Stage Coach ​drawn by horses, and that by a Carriage propelled by Steam?—I have seen the locomotive Engine travelling in the month of January, and also the ordinary Carriages, and I cannot see that the locomotive Engine has done any more injury than an ordinary Carriage. The destruction on the road after a frost is much greater than in other cases.
Have you made observation as to the effect on the road by each Carriage when the road was in the worst state?—I have seen them exactly at the same time and in the same circumstances. In the month of October, when there had been a considerable deal of rain, and the old road to Barnet, down by Stanmore, was very soft in consequence of the rain. I have seen the effect of a locomotive Engine, and the effect of the Hemel Hempstead Coach running along side of each other, and I consider that there was no difference at that time; I was then watching the action of Mr. Gurney's wheels, and particularly his driving wheel, with that view. I put the horses out of the case.
Was there any perceptible difference in the damage done?—None, that I perceived.
What are the effects on the wear of the road, by increasing the velocity of the Steam Carriage?—I have not observed that, but it must be less. Suppose you are carrying a weight on a road slowly after a frost, you will break the crust; but travelling at a greater rate over it, it will not have that effect; the frozen crust will remain unbroken.
Have you observed the effect on the road, by increasing the diameter of the wheels?—I cannot say that I have seen that.
In Mr. Gurney's Carriage, the wheels do not always follow in the same track?—Sometimes they do, and sometimes they do not.
Under those circumstances, supposing equal weights on the four wheels, it would be easy for you to observe whether the wear of the fore and hind wheels was the same?—I never observed any perceptible difference in the injury.
A considerable proportion of the wear of the road is ​to be attributed to the atmosphere, without reference to the Carriages which pass over it?—Yes; the most destructive element in nature is water; and in the course of the winter, the action of the water that gets sucked up into the road is very bad, and the very washing is also very bad.
Are there many states of the road in which a wide tire is of considerable advantage to the road!--Yes. In the majority of cases do you think the superior width of the tire which the Steam Carriage has over a Carriage drawn by horses, is altogether an advantage or a disadvantage?—A wide tire has the advantage upon the average.
And the Steam Carriage has that advantage over the other?—Of late. Mr. Gurney has increased the width of bis tire; it was at all times wider, but he has increased it still more.
Does the width of the tire impede the velocity at all?—Scarcely in a perceptible degree.
Are you of opinion that a wide tire, under any circumstances, does injury to a road in any state of it?—I have made po observation as to its doing an injury.
Complaints have been made that a great inconvenience arises to passengers along the road from the use of these Carriages, from the horses being frightened, in consequence of the peculiar noise, the smoke, and the letting off the steam; have you seen any inconvenience of that kind?—I have seen one case where a gig ran off for about 200 yards, and was then stopped without any accident. I have also seen the same thing happen with a Stage Coach; it is a common thing with a young shy horse. I have seen Mr. Gurney's Coach at work in the Barrack Yard, in the Regent's Park, and have not seen the horses frightened there.
Should you say you have seen a much greater number of cases of horses being frightened and running away attending the use of Steam Carriages than of common Coaches?—My experience in Steam Carriages is limited, and so must be that of every one when compared with the experience had with ordinary Coaches; I have seen Mr. Gurney's Engines, in going ​ through the streets of London, and I have not seen horses frightened in any case; they may be sy, and prick their ears at it, but they have not started.
Have you turned your attention to the question, how Tolls should be fairly charged on such Carriages?—No.