 original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of robert harley sent monday september NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to fork URL subject re java is for kiddies reza b far wrote this thread kind of surprises me i started coding with c then c and moved on to java and i think that robert harley wrote looks like a case of my experience is comprehensive your s is anecdotal they don t know what they re talking about well i sure don t claim that i think most people on fork probably have more programming knowledge than i do there s lots of experience out here reza b far wrote NUMBER the people who pay the wages don t give a flyin heck what programming language you write things in they just want it to work robert harley wrote in my experience they do care it has to work certainly and in particular it has to work with what they ve already got and it has to work on client s systems my limited experience of java started a few years ago when support on linux was so terrible that i ran away screaming and haven t come back yet well i think until recently support for most things on linux was kind of shady things have got much better you re right in that the jdk used to suck on linux but then imho linux is still maturing or at least development tools for linux are maturing i ve been developing a few server side apps that run on linux recently with jdk NUMBER NUMBER x and they ve had no problems with great performance robert harley worte microsoft has announced that they plan to remove java from windows they took it out of xp already and it has to be installed with a service pack somehow i can t imagine them removing the ability to run c programs hmmm do you really think that ms is pulling out java because it s a bad programming language or application platform you don t think this has anything to do with net being a competitor to java do you or that ms has basically copied java with some additional features and called it c isn t that alone an indication that they actually do think that a vm is the right way to go for most high level applications reza b far wrote NUMBER c and c forces the developer to solve problems such as memory management over and over again robert harley wrote can t say i spend any noticeable amount of time on memory management issues apart from the fact that i frequently need NUMBER gb hmmm again you re telling me that you ve never had a nasty bug that took you a couple of days to track down that had to do with a memory leak i am not the best c c programmer not even close but i ve known really good ones and even they have nasty bugs that have to do with memory management however occasional they may be it s about design patterns architecture high level stuff robert harley wrote if your problem just requires application of a design pattern to solve then it s trivial anyway irrespective of language wow so you re telling me that unless the application involves bit counting it s trivial what about the application itself what about high level problems such as task distribution work flow etc aren t most high level problems solved with high level solutions like design patterns or do you solve high level problems by writing optimal c c code for example do you think that most people working on collaboration frameworks there are lots of them on this list are working on writing an operating system with assembly that provides for a collaborative environment i am amazed by the amount of time wasted by people talking about low level problems that have been solved NUMBER million times over and over and over again robert harley wrote you appear to be gratuitously asserting that c programmers waste time on irrelevant low level problems and java programmers don t depends entirely on the programmer not the language i can see how you could infer this however what i believe to really be the case is that java is one of the best languages for writing large applications with many components that involves the collaboration of more than three programmers in those cases it s always very hard to get the programmers to agree on api s memory management techniques etc with java the jcp takes care of the discussions so that you don t sit around in a long meeting trying to decide what api to use to hook up to a database jdbc or a messaging bus jms NUMBER java is not just a programming language it s also a platform robert harley wrote buzzword yikes have you written db code with c c for different databases just an example tried porting a persistence layer from windows to unix say you have informix running on solaris and you want to port to windows with ms sql bad idea but for the sake of the example would you rather deal with jdbc port or c c port that uses informix drivers and now you have to use odbc a monolithic set of api s or a crap load of different api s slicing and dicing the same problems NUMBER different ways robert harley wrote unsupported assertion so are you saying that there is a standard set of api s for c c for everything aside to the minimal ansi stuff is there a standard way of dealing with c c applications for various domain problems messaging database persistence etc that rivals java i d like to know if there is one accepted by everyone who writes c c in that case i claim ignorance not suggesting that java is the golden hammer just that c c is overkill for most things i even coded in vb but vb is a true disgrace to programming it s just lame java is object oriented no flame mail from the anti oo people please that is a religious discussion and relatively clean and i don t think that every kid can write a well designed java program kids typically don t understand various design patterns and principles to my experience they actually tend to think more of the low level problems wanting to rewrite and reinvent the world a tendency that is much more possible imho in c c than in java due to existence of standard api s 