reza b far wrote this thread kind of surprises me i started coding with c then c and moved on to java and i think that looks like a case of my experience is comprehensive your s is anecdotal they don t know what they re talking about NUMBER the people who pay the wages don t give a flyin heck what programming language you write things in they just want it to work in my experience they do care it has to work certainly and in particular it has to work with what they ve already got and it has to work on client s systems my limited experience of java started a few years ago when support on linux was so terrible that i ran away screaming and haven t come back yet microsoft has announced that they plan to remove java from windows they took it out of xp already and it has to be installed with a service pack somehow i can t imagine them removing the ability to run c programs NUMBER c and c forces the developer to solve problems such as memory management over and over again can t say i spend any noticeable amount of time on memory management issues apart from the fact that i frequently need NUMBER gb it s about design patterns architecture high level stuff if your problem just requires application of a design pattern to solve then it s trivial anyway irrespective of language i am amazed by the amount of time wasted by people talking about low level problems that have been solved NUMBER million times over and over and over again you appear to be gratuitously asserting that c programmers waste time on irrelevant low level problems and java programmers don t depends entirely on the programmer not the language NUMBER java is not just a programming language it s also a platform buzzword a monolithic set of api s or a crap load of different api s slicing and dicing the same problems NUMBER different ways unsupported assertion NUMBER if you have a program of any type of high complexity written in c you can t possibly think that you could port it to different platforms within the same magnitude of cost as java dunno e g i ported a wee NUMBER line c program to darwin on powerpc in a few minutes yesterday sure if it was badly designed it would be NUMBER times the size and harder to port if it depended on unavailable libraries it would be much harder portable code is easy to port at least that is the case when then language you used is available on the target platform i also run on arm systems with no proper java NUMBER makes no sense for a scientific or a business project to depend on a person java imho reduces the dependence of these entities on the individual developer as it is much easier to reverse engineer java as it is to reverse engineer c large applications you can pay a good programmer to solve your problem now or else get some kids to hack spaghetti fortran in any language and then pay for maintenance headaches ad infinitum NUMBER hardware is getting so fast that i m not sure if the performance difference between java and c c are relevant any more whoah performance matters to me every day right now i m taking time out to write email while waiting for a job to run sure i could wait NUMBER years until everyone s pc is fast enough to generate random ec s in no time when any twit will be able to program inefficient code that is fast enough and the market will be overrun by competitors or i can do it now when very few people can the end goal is the scientific or business problem to be solved yes and for those problems languages such as java smalltalk and others allow you to think more high level than low level thinking of bits and bytes takes too much gray matter away from the real important problems it s true i admit everything mea maxima culpa working in c makes me spend all day thinking base rank thoughts about hard core bitography not actually i spend most of my time thinking in high level mathematics why do most computer scientists insist on solving the same problems over and over again dunno and frankly i don t see the relevance to the issue at hand i m sure java is fine for some stuff as is c or whatever horses for courses bye rob _ 