UESPWiki:Community Portal/Oblivion Apparel and Magic Effects Organizing

Oblivion Apparel and Magic Effects Organizing... (among other things)

I know that some people just go here looking for certain apparel with certain effects, and it's difficult to find. There is: "Generic Magic Apparel", "Artifacts", "Leveled Items", "Unique Items", "Knights of the Nine New Items", "Dunbarrow Cove Items", "Deepscorn Hollow Items", "Battlehorn Castle Items", "Specialty Gear", "Shivering:Unique Clothing", "Shivering:Armor". 11 different places you have to look for one effect (if you say have all the plug-ins). 
Say you want your character to have +100 personality. It takes a long time to find such an item, and if you do not have a lot of grand soul gems or access to an altar of enchanting, you will not know how much of a bonus for your personality you can get without hunting it down. 
If you have a character that has everything except for a good shield, you would probably try to look up "Shields". That takes you, understandably, to the "Shield" effect page for oblivion, and at the bottom it has links to 2 more categories: "Oblivion-Armor-Shields Light", "Category:Oblivion-Armor-Shields Heavy". Each one is separated into 53 and 68 different links respectively. That is bound to slow down your computer if you open them all at once to try to compare them, or even one by one it would take absolutely forever. Same with gauntlets or anything else. 

Fixes to those 2 problems: 
1: In every page for a magical effect (such as "Fire Shield"), list the amounts you can get from custom enchantments and/or sigil stones, and list all apparel (ALL) that gives any sort of a bonus for it, making sure to make it be a table rather than just links to each one. >_>
2: Create a section for each slot (Shields, Head, Hands, etc) that will have on it a list of everything that covers it, be it enchanted or unenchanted. If something is a Raiment or like that, Create a Raiment (Hands, Feet, Upper Body, Legs), or something a Robe (Upper Body, Legs) section. This will include everything from all DLC or plug-ins, making sure to put a tinynotething next to it such as is done right now. SI for Shivering Isles, etc. 
3: There will be an "Apparel" section that will link to every magical effect that is used and every slot that is used for all apparel, including armor. 

If anyone has any objections, I will do this. I just want permission to do this. 

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There are also the people who just go to an oblivion reference site such as this with no clue what they're going to make their character into, because they are either just starting out their game, or really really bored and know the game enough. For the latter, this helps. 
For people starting the game, some people just worry about having fun, and so they probably wont be checking here, and some people tend to worry about character creation, efficient leveling and such. Those that worry about character creation and being the best and owning, they want to know certain things, inlcuding: ways to increase attributes to their maximum (Felldew, Oghma Infinium, etc), ways to increase skills to their maximum (Free Skill Boosts, increasing skills, skill books) and want to know what it does (only Athletics and Acrobatics help to increase above 100, so maybe they just want their skills at exactly 100, they need to know they can go to jail to delevel a skill), maximum level cap, minimum level cap (both caps referring to including the Felldew glitch and such, in other words being the best), the best weapons (which weapon type to use), and the best equipment.

Fix:
In the Character Creation page, it should include links to these places and/or information about them. 

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The above problem of things not being in organized places happens with weapons too. If you want blunt weapons, you should be able to see "Blunt" and have it organized by base damage, magic affect, whatever it may be, it would be organized by one hand or two hand, then by speed (In other words, by Mace or Hammer or etc). Same with Blade, Bows/Arrows, and Staffs. DLC items should also be included in this section. [I really cannot tackle this right now, can somebody else?]

Also, if an item is unobtainable by any means but through the construction set, then maybe it shouldn't be included in the main section for unique items. This includes items like "Veil of the Seer". (idk probably)

Bugs that are fixed by third-party patches probably maybe do not need to say "This bug is fixed by the Unofficial Oblivion Patch." every single time. Why not make an Unofficial Oblivian Patch page and put it there. (idk probably) 

All of the unorganized "Categories" where you need to click on hundreds of different things in order to find something are really kinda annoying. I mean come on, this isn't Wikipedia. This is UESP. (This is my opinion)

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A Great Idea

If on a table there are symbols for weight, base damage, etc, you should be able to click on it and have the table be organized in such a fashion by that. --Minimang 18:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

:I see what are trying to accomplish and I agree that the current setup may need some improvement. I do not agree with all your points though. Our current categorisation is not setup as Wikipedia's, as the former is better organised with clear names. It's a dept-first search method I think works better than a very large list of generic items. You can specifically find an article that holds certain properties. 

:Currently I like option 1) the most, though I feel it needs some tweaks.  has the most comprehensive list for items sorted by effect. Next to a link to that article we could add links to the various other items that have that effect (with a possible magnitude), but we have to see first how many that will be. The other options will create redundancy, and I don't think that is a good idea. 

:As for the UOP notes, I prefer the way they are setup now. The official home of the patch already have a large list of fixes. What we do is make the reader aware of every bug when the UOP fixes that. The approach is the reverse method of the long list of fixes. I think they work both well in unison. --Timenn-  09:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

::K so instead of under each magical effect page, we list the unique items, we do it under generic magic apparel?  I think that would be good if all items were included in the game, but for all those other randomly scattered items, how would it work? Maybe just include the non-generic items on the page for each magical effect, seeing as they all already have links to the generic magic apparel page. --Minimang

:::I would much rather set up categories to deal with this issue than continue creating pages with the same information sorted in different ways.  Also I'd feel a lot better if we could stop creating more new pages until we get more input from the community. 

:::Also, I agree with Timenn about the UOP notices.  There's no sense replacing all the individual instances with a single page listing them all.  For one thing, such a place already exists (as Timenn pointed out); also, this would mean players would have to check yet another page to find out whether the bug is fixed by the page, and that's just plain inconvenient. –Eshe  20:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

::::I agree with Eshe. The categories are endlessly more beneficial and endlessly less redundant. Basically we should have two main categories: Oblivion-Enchanted Armor and Oblivion-Enchanted Apparel. Then, each effect is a stem off of that: Oblivion-Enchanted Armor-Fortify Magicka, for example. It doesn't seem difficult enough. And we would add a category for each effect that the item has, obviously. I don't think we need to separate the effects by the type of apparel, as that would be basically redundant. Then, we could provide links on the effects pages to help readers find the items. –Elliot   22:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::This type of issue has been discussed before, at some length (e.g., starting in  and continuing half-way down ).  And I still don't think a wiki is suited to provide this type of information -- it's too much work, too much redundancy, and the end result is useful for too few people.  Categories won't help most readers, who will want to see item details (magnitude of enchantment, armor rating, weapon damage, and all the other details) listed, not just item names.  Individual pages listing items won't help most readers, because every reader will want a different list based on their individual preferences (just one example is that the new pages won't help players whose character is less than level 20).
:::::This type of information needs a different type of web software, one that ties into a database of item statistics, and allows readers to filter/organize/sort the information in whichever way they prefer.  I've done at least 75% of the work for such a utility (and it's set up to work for MW, OB, and probably any future TES games), although I have no idea when I'll be able to get back to it.  On the other hand, it's a safe bet that I'll be able to finish it before any massive categorization effort gets done -- especially since, in my opinion, a bot (and we only have NepheleBot any more) is the only way to possibly attempt any categories. --Nephele  00:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::. Nephele I agree with you on the fact that people do not just want to see item names, and want to be able to sort through item effects, and that was the whole point I had of making these seemingly redundant pages. If you have a different type of software available, that would be absolutely perfect. All we need to do is address the reasons people would go onto a site, looking for apparel. 1 is that they have great everything but not a great shield or whatevs, and so they need to find a good item. 2 is that they are lookin for a certain effect, and don't know if anything is like better than a grand soul gem effect or sigil stone effect and want a better item. Those two effects I am addressing. 2B is that someone wants two or so effects out of one piece of apparel. 3 is that someone wants to find a good item for their level. Are there any other reasons?

::::::And what do you mean that all these resources are not for a wiki? Is not a wiki a resource material that is a collaboration of all knowledge on a subject? Wanna know why Fallout 3 is such a successful wiki? Because, well first off their categories can all be very easily accessed from a navigation bar. Second off, though there is a page for every person, for every weapon and piece of equipment, the main and only real page you can find is one that is a collaboration. If you go to ammunition on that wiki, you will find a list of all ammunition, and under each one all the guns (including DLC only ones) that can shoot it its value, and a link to every page for both guns and ammo. Under weapons you will find every weapon, a bunch of relevant random data about each one including weight, value, rate of fire, health, and other information that might be nice to have. On that wiki, you   There, under quests you find every quest from all DLC. Here, you need to look under each respective DLC category to find the quests given, and under quests here you find a list of all quests by location. It would be better if under , you would find a link to every place, but better yet you would be able to scroll down and see every single quest in a list.   A similar problem is here. Over here, it is impossible to find a weapon, being the most powerful or not, due to the fact that it is all sorted by enchantments or whatever. If you want it all in hidden places, make a Blade, Blunt, Staff, Bows, and Arrows section, but under each at least list what is needed.

::::::A wiki should simply list everything under every section. You should not have to say "Oh, did you know that you can get stunted magicka for as long as you hold the Fork of Horripilation?",  , "Oh, you have to go to Shivering, and then Items, and then click Weapons, and it's in the not-organized-alphabetically-or-by-anything Unique Items section of that. Good luck!". I go there, and right under the sidebar for Fallout 3, you're looking for weapons, so you scroll your mouse over items, but you see Bobbleheads. You don't know what they are, so you click it. At the beginning it tells you about some achievements you can get for finding these things, which are scattered around the world, 20 of them.    06:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

::"First, if a topic is discussed in detail on multiple different pages, then a reader has to read all of those pages to be sure that he has read all the information[... Only information of interest to almost all readers should be included: 90% of the readers should not have to wade through uninteresting information just so that 10% of readers can find the information."

::I don't think that every item should be described in detail on every page, just some easy tables for statistics. A problem here is that there is a lot of redundancy here, and it is very hard to find all the types of information. In , you do not find every single bit of information on becoming a mage, IMO. It is scattered randomly. Eshe, if you're worrying about accessibility, see the biggest page in Oblivion, , and time how long it takes to load. For me, it took 4 seconds. I called a friend who has worse internet, and it took him 7 seconds. Big pages here are not that big, and are pretty easily accessible. Sections of a page are good IMO, but I just do not understand the fascination with categories! Categories do not list information, they sort information. Some basic information such as different weapons and different equipment should be repeated, because it is very useful. For Alchemy ingredients, under each magical effect you see the potions that make it, and you have a useful potions section, and everything is found under , and it is very organized. Are there categories for it? Maybe, but that isn't very useful.   You should be able to, when looking for the , find out that the  is more powerful, when a Category does not say that.

::The only reason that you would need a category is if you have a specific item in mind, like say the Gray Cowl of Nocturnal, but even then, you can  . If on Fortify Health, you wanted a category for it, I think that would be really redundant, seeing as a lot of links is LESS accessible than a single big page listing all of the information, because you need to include more information linking to other categories on each category page. What needs to be done is more page merges. If we could merge most of the mage information onto one page, that would be great for everyone looking for information. When you say that people look for information in different ways, do you think that it would or would not be more convenient to have to look on many many different pages (one category to the next) to find what items give Fortify Health? It would be a useful reminder if you already knew the items on the list and the effects they gave, but when you need to compare them, you would need to open up every page in order to see every effect. If you wanted to see the item with the most Fortify Health, it would take a lot of effort, and Generic Magic Apparel does not list this on every item. 

::"90% of the readers should not have to wade through uninteresting information just so that 10% of readers can find the information." - Style Guide. This is only the case if all of the information is going by one line at a time, but in my honest opinion does not include tables. If you have a table, you do not have to wade through anything, because the number will just be on the side. You will not have to look at it. Over here, a PS3 or Xbox360 user will have to wade through some information that only applies to those using third party patches or the construction set, which neither of those people can access, but those users can survive. If any information is uninteresting, then it should not even be on this site. "[...]just so that 10% of readers can find the information." the information should all be relevant. 10% of users might look for the weight of an item, but people do not need to wade through that seeing as it's just there. There should be information included on an article that is not immediately relevant, that 90% of users should not look for or immediately care about, but that they WILL care about once they see what it effects.  and  are both items that have rare specials. For the former, it can instantly kill an opponent. For the latter, it has a small chance to paralyze an opponent for 15 seconds. Though someone may not be looking for the rate for these special attacks, they should still be able to see it on the page, because it is useful information after you play for a while, and realize that your 'stupid' weapon never 'freaking' paralyses an enemy, but then you can see special rates and realize that another weapon has a half as good effect but occurs twice as much, you might want to know that. Most people do not care about charge for a weapon, but if you are constantly worrying about refilling your weapon, you might want to be able to find a weaker weapon that you can use more.

::My points are as follows. 1: (A big problem) Because there are SO many in depth articles, you never know if you have all the information. Less articles and less categories means less redundancy, and more accessibility overall. 2: Categories only help if you have already know an item name, because if you were going to search for a Fortify Health item, you would not already know which items give which effects, so you would not be able to compare and contrast. 3: Tables and a page sections are very easy ways to sort information so that people do not need to see any irrelevant-to-their-purpose information, even when they have a LOT of different statistics for everything. --Minimang

:::Okay, I can't believe I didn't notice this before, but  already has exactly the kind of listing you're talking about.  The simplest way to make these more accessible would be to add links on the individual effects pages, and perhaps come up with some clever redirects.  There's absolutely no reason to recreate lists we already have.

:::Also, the "Enchanted [Body Part] Items" articles you've been creating should probably be userfied.  If we ever did decide to sort these items by type in addition to effect, they should all be listed on one page (like ) and sorted by the names we use on the site and in-game, like "Boots" and "Shoes" intead of "Feet Items."

:::Given that we already have the listing you're looking for, I think the best solution would be to make that list easier to find rather than make additional pages. –Eshe  23:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

::::Exactly what I was trying to get at. Generic Magic Apparel has that kind of listing. Idk what userfied means, but I was going to merge all of the body part articles onto the  page when I finished them all, also including every item effect thing on it in the same manner as Generic Magic Apparel.  meh agreed. --Minimang

:::::Userfied means you put it in your own user space instead of in the Oblivion namespace.  Since you're planning on getting rid of them all anyway when you merge them, it would make more sense to keep them in user sandboxes.  Also, the other part of my point was that we have yet to decide whether we want the enchanted items to be listed by body part in addition to enchantment.  I think it is important that we reach a consensus on this issue before an additional article is created.  For example, why would we have Oblivion:Enchanted Apparel in addition to Oblivion:Generic Magic Apparel?  It would make more sense to have Oblivion:Generic Magic Apparel by Body Area, for the sake of consistency. –Eshe  01:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::If we do somehow put them in an article by body part, we could easily just do it s subpages, and provide a link on the central page. I am not sure it is necessary, because the apparel by effect is not massively large, so if someone was looking for something with a certain effect, then it would be there. And I doubt anyone is looking for something that they don't know of yet (which in that case, massive availability is not a concern). –Elliot   02:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Eshe, the reason to have Oblivion:Enchanted Apparel in addition to Oblivion:Generic Magic Apparel is because the generic one includes only items randomly found in vanilla Oblivion, rather than every unique item, every leveled item, every artifact, and every item found from DLC.  
Elliot, "And I doubt anyone is looking for something that they don't know of yet"... could you please elaborate because I don't get what you're trying to say. My point was that pages should not be specific and only include the specific information, but include all of the information of a topic, being very specialized. I'm basically saying "huh?" because I keep misreading your words and... well just ????? --Minimang
:I am still not convinced that the categories are a bad idea. I don't think it really is that hard to do, since it just a process of adding information. Will it happen in one day? No. But I have been working on the journal entries for awhile, and it hasn't been a concern. Length of procedure should not be a concern; rather, the end result should be. And there is one thing that I know for sure: we have ''no'' use for –at all. –Elliot   21:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

::While I'll keep my nose out of the debate of whether or not  should stay, I must admit that the changes to the magical effects pages (adding which pieces of equipment have the effect, and how strong it is) is a great idea in my opinion.  It makes it much easier (again, in my opinion) to find gear with the effect you want, especially if you aren't in the Mage's Guild and don't have Frostcrag for enchanting.  That being said, I wouldn't object to reformating the information. Dlarsh  23:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

:::The problem was never that Categories would be hard to do, it was that they would not be useful. Categories JUST SHOW NAMES OF ITEMS, and are sorted in NOT USEFUL WAYS. People want know which items give you the highest amount of Magicka, and so going on the Fortify Magicka page, you could find it. If you wanted to find a gauntlet with Fortify Magicka, you would have to go to Category:Oblivion-Armor-Gauntlets_Heavy 57 entries + Category:Shivering-Armor-Gauntlets_Heavy 8 entries + Category:Oblivion-Armor-Gauntlets_Light 45 entries + Category:Shivering-Armor-Gauntlets_Light 10 entries = 120 entries of random names of gauntlets. People do not know the effects that every single gauntlet gives, and so they would have to look through 120 pages to find one with Fortify Magicka. When you are on , you need only to scroll down to Gauntlets, click show, hold control and press F to bring up the find menu, and type in "Fortify Magicka" to find all of the gauntlets that give Fortify Magicka. Better yet, you would go to  if you were looking for such an effect, and what do you know, it isn't there either. 

:::You're looking for a weapon. Your blunt skill is the highest, and you want to find the best weapon there is with blunt, but you don't know the game very well. Using categories, you can actually find it easier than I thought, looking through. Only 4 pages. Category:Oblivion-Weapons-Blunts_Two_Hand 132 entries, Category:Shivering-Weapons-Blunts_Two_Hand 44 entries, Category:Oblivion-Weapons-Blunts_One_Hand 145 entries, Category:Shivering-Weapons-Blunts_One_Hand 60 entries. 381 different blunt weapons, that you need to comb through to find the best one. On the  page it does not list the weapon with the highest base damage, Nerveshatter / Perfect Amber Hammer, which are shivering only, or the highest base damage weapon in Vanilla oblivion, whatever that heck has 28 base damage. You cannot find it in . You cannot find it in . How do you find this then? YOU DON'T. 

:::Understand why categories are not necessarily useful when looking for information? I think that a central hub where you can find all of the weapons or apparel or whatever is a great idea.  is just that.--Minimang 00:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
::::There are two simple ways we could handle that. We could organize the categories and place the pages in them according to a certain number (if it 14 pts, we put it under 1, if it is 56 pts, we put it under 5). This is limited to 99, but not many things go over that. Or, we could make separate categories based on the magnitude of the effect. Two simple solutions to something that has become a major /unnecessary/ pain. –Elliot   02:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::See , and tell me if the list at the bottom of that page is or is not remotely helpful. Elliot I guess I don't understand. Could you make an example of this? Actually, I could see that being very helpful in the events of weapons, maybe  sorted by Base Damage, but not really for enchantments when there are so many different effects. Maybe for armor by armor rating, but still not the total power of anything, as far as I can tell. Please could you make a small example?--Minimang 01:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
::::::Okay, here's what I'm thinking.  I like the idea of adding the items to the effects pages, but I think we can do better than just a list of links.  I would propose reformatting the lists into sortable tables, like this example for Shield:
::::::
::::::If anything gives us almost maximum versatility and ease of use, I think it's this.  We can add or remove whatever columns we like, and users can sort the information based on their own needs.  It shouldn't be too much trouble to convert the existing links into these tables, and I think it makes more sense than only using categories for the same purpose.  So...what do we think? –Eshe  23:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
(Outdent) It looks great.  For what it's worth, I think this should solve any issues with the magical effects page. Dlarsh  23:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
::Looks great! This should solve the effect problems.--Minimang 11:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

:::But wait. First items need to be listed by effect, but now also by base damage? I can see this is going to result in numerous different classifications and a variation of Wikipedia's infamous lists-of. We might as well make a list for items that have multiple effects, as some other players might consider that a better way of ordering items than the strength of a single effect. And how about the equipment weight? 

:::I think we can better spend time on thinking how to implement a proposal such as made by Nephele. Or why not utilize the Data Sharing technique? We store all the actual content on the item page itself, and just load the various needed properties. If we are already going to spend time on this, we might as well do it properly. --Timenn-  11:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm not opposed to eventually having a page where all of this information could be listed any way you could think of, but it seems like this is a good setup in the meantime.  I mean, we've already listed the ingredients at the effect pages, so listing equipment seems like a logical (not to mention useful) addition.  I think it makes sense to go ahead with these listings for the sake of having more complete effects articles.  If we want to work on something bigger and more complicated, we can do that too...assuming someone knows how to do it! –Eshe  16:12, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

:::::IMO Alchemy is by far the best organized bit of information in Oblivion. There are 2 pages that list all of the ingredients, 1 page that lists them all by effect, on every effect page are the ingredients, and there are only about 2 pages that list all of the information and tips and tricks to being an alchemist. I finished , and every effect has been updated with apparel that give it that effect. The only thing left is to reformat all of the effect pages with the tables. Could someone look it over and tell me if it's adequate? 

(outdent) Mmkay, if there aren't any objections to the sortable tables, I'm going to add them to my list of things to do...hopefully to get started this weekend.  We'll see! –Eshe  00:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

:Hm, are we in agreement for the format of those tables? Should the other effects of the items be presented? What about my suggestion for using the Data Sharing utilities? That way the magnitude of an effect is stored at a single location.

:The reason Alchemy works is because no other data about ingredients is mentioned, they are simply linked to. Each ingredient has its own article, which is not the case for the various enchanted items. --Timenn-  10:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Second Look
After looking at this again, and trying to see it from all angles, I am still unconvinced of this "project's" current nature. The tables are horrible and redundant. Many things are listed both on the effect pages and the Generic Magic page as well (which, keep in mind, is linked to from the page). In my opinion, the best thing to use would be categories and to link to those categories on the effects page. We categorize everything already, so I fail to see how this would be a major step in a different direction. My idea would be to use a template that could easily apply the categories to the pages and redirects. Something similar to  . And I am not worried about the scope of this, because I organized the entire Deletion Review system within a day, and this doesn't seem that much more difficult. I am still open to other options, obviously, but what we have currently is simply lacking and unprofessional. –Elliot   11:27, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

:I started creating tables, but after reading this page I decided to stop doing so until I have the aproval to continue. Here's an example of what I've been doing and I would like to know what you think about it and if I should keep going with this. This is for Drain Skill but I also created tables for Reflect Damage and Reflect Spell in case you want to check out those too.--S&#39;drassa 15:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)



:I've tried playing around with the tables as well, but I haven't been really satisfied with the result. I think the amount of information provided on the articles currently is not complete enough to allow it to stay (only providing part of the total picture can be misleading). Unless someone is willing to finish it, I think it should be removed. --Timenn-  13:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

::Yeah, I have been saying it should be remove the moment it was added ;) I am willing to do that and set up a categorization system if that is what is agreed upon. If people really want to be able to find information on that, then they will not be so troubled to do a tiny bit of research on their own. And, it makes the articles cleaner. –Elliot   13:19, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Well, now I must say I agree. At first I thought that the pages where incomplete and now I see why: there are many items with a certain enchantment, so we would need to list them all in the respective page (at least that's how I see it). So, what do you say about only adding a link to ,  and the other pages that list all of the enchanted items in the game, just to make it easier to find a certain enchanted item.--     01:26, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
::::We already link those on each of the effects pages. –Elliot   23:28, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I still think it makes the most sense to list the items with the effects on the effects pages.   is too much of a mess of hidden sortable tables right now to be of much use, and I think having  and the items listed on the effects pages covers the issue well enough.

The original issue, as I recall, is that while all of the magical items are already listed somewhere on the site, most users are going to be looking for a particular effect.  If a user needs Water Breathing, for example, they'd want to be able to just see a list of items that would give them that effect.  Since the ingredients that give the effects are already listed on the effects pages, it makes no sense whatsoever not to list the items as well.

If we want to discuss the idea of doing categories in addition to adding this easily accessible information, I'm open to that as well.  I'd be happy to finish the effect page tables myself (as I said I'd do months ago!). –Eshe  23:38, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

:I am opposed to the addition of these ridiculous tables and think they should all be removed. There are Apparel links that goes to apparel for that affect. There is absolutely no need for that much info on the page. And I want categories as a stand alone. And the ingredients and apparel are two completely different things. If you want me to point out step-by-step what I plan to do, I will add it here tomorrow, since most people seem convinced otherwise. –Elliot   05:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
::If no one replies by tomorrow (Dec. 9), I will go ahead and start implementing my plan to handle this situation. If anyone has any ideas better than the categories, please make haste as this entire discussion has dragged on longer than needed. Thanks. –Elliot   12:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
:::You haven't posted your plan yet.
:::I don't really see what categories would add that the site doesn't already have, but I agree that the tables should come off. Note, though, that some effect pages don't currently link to an Apparel section (Drain Skill for one). –rpeh  13:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
::::Here is my plan:
::::It will add the categories in order to wade through and find the exact thing you want. I would make a template for it (still don't know if I would want to transclude it or not). Maybe a bot could add them, but I would be willing to do it myself. –Elliot   07:46, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
:::::Actually, on second thought, there is no need for categories. The apparel link on the Effects Entry is fine enough. I fill just get rid of the boxes from the effects pages. –Elliot   08:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

::::::I'm inclined to agree. There are one or two effects where we ''don't'' currently have a list of apparel - mainly the dangerous ones like Drain Skill and Drain Attribute. Purely for completeness, those ought to be listed on the Generic Magic Apparel page (or, possibly, left as tables or lists in those cases). –rpeh  09:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)