UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes

Oblivion:Gripes
I'm not only proposing the main article for deletion, but all subpages as well.

Various editors, including me, have voiced from time to time concerns about the usefulness of the Oblivion:Gripes articles. The articles have been ones of the lowest quality of this wiki. Any Oblivion talk:Gripes#Proposal for Redesign|attempt at cleanup has stranded in the first phase. While some articles may have been cleaned up a bit by various editors over time, nobody has seemed willing put their devotion and time on overhauling it (which is no criticim, merely an observation that editors rather spend their time on other matters they find more important). 

As it stands now the articles are so bad, I feel UESP is better of without them. They are little better than a poorly moderated message board. There is little structure, and there is no good distinction whether we should consider these posts as article entries (we may alter) or user comments (we may not alter).

But more importantly, the articles are not informative. For example, the existence of the controversial Roleplaying articles can be defended that at least those articles provide ideas. At their best they allow the reader to look at the game in a new perspective, the Gripes articles do not in any way. Even the main Oblivion:Gripes articles has no informative value, other than explaining how to gripe, and the links to other articles. These articles have been merely an invitation for people to express their (negative) opinions about various elements.
  
Apologies for likely stirring up the place, and drawing you out this way, but I cannot find another workable solution.--Timenn-  14:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

 
Delete: As nominator. --Timenn-  14:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Keep: I just read through them all, and yeah, it is a mess. It is as you described in many places, a poorly moderated message board. In other places it isn't so bad. But I have to disagree that it isn't informative, as the solutions are sometimes very helpful. Other reasons for keeping it include that it is a good way to keep gripes off of other pages and is probably the best single collection of actual legitimate complaints about Oblivion anywhere. I know some people have suggested that future developers will be put off by the page, but I think most developers have a bit thicker skin than that. Deleting it entirely is just too drastic. --Ninti 20:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Keep: As with Ninti, I agree completely that they're a mess, but many of the gripes provide direct solutions or mods to help with those who have the same issues.  Now having said that, I would whole-heartedly support deletion of the existing Gripes pages if we wanted to undertake a project to re-write all those pages in a more formal manner with a better name (though I'm not imaginative enough at the moment to come up with a better name). —Robin Hood   21:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::Comment: But that is the problem, no one is willing to really do something about it. Wishing it was any good is one thing, actually spending your time on it is another. Solutions that are given in a follow-up post are a trademark of a message board, which we are not. Solutions to known problems should be covered in real articles instead, which I believe already are for the important part. --Timenn-  22:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Delete: I believe the problems should be addressed on the individual pages (as that is where most people will be looking anyway). The majority of the "gripes" are unfortunately just that... griping (over minimal issues). I truly think no one will miss this page (this is what you see on the official forums, anyway). –Elliot   04:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Delete: I've no problems with the gripes being deleted. The individual articles should be used to objectively describe the problems or features, if applicable. We do not need a separate page mentioning opinions of editors, because, let's face it, they are mostly opinions. The gripes pages aren't very informative as well, and most of the information that is present can already be found at their respective articles. Right now I feel that the gripes pages are just a collection of opinions, and only a massive overhaul can change that. Which isn't worth it...           22:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Delete: I whole-heartedly support this deletion.  The gripes page are nothing but a mish-mash and, like Timenn said, it's too difficult to determine if it's "article", which is edited, or personal post, which is not.  Any solutions could be mentioned on the appropriate articles.  I'd suggest we determine the most common (valid) gripes, and mention any solutions offered on the appropriate article.  Even the most common, the leveling system, could mention the mods that "fix" it in a devoted section (near the bottom ;) ).  If there is no "solution", only complaints and others saying why it's not worth complaining about, why does the wiki need to document it?  I don't think it's even worthy of an overhaul - and I'd do it myself if I thought it was.  The salvageable info - what little there is - can be placed on the appropriate pages and (I think) do a better job offering players solutions to their "gripes" on the pages that explain the feature anyway.  I am willing to do a rewrite if anyone can come up with a suggestion for how to do it comprehensively, but I personally don't think there's enough salvageable material to warrant it.  --GK  17:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Delete: I just tried to read through some of it, and it really is a mess. A forum-like affair filled with rather uninteresting complaints and untested solutions. I know Lukish have tried to do something with it, but judging from his latest entry at the bottom of this page, I'd say it's time to let it go. Delete. --Krusty 08:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Delete: The Gripes section seems pointless to me.  The page does nothing but give people a place to complain about something that's already been done.  Bethesda has already stated that they won't release any more plug-ins/expansions, so new patches are unlikely as well, which means nothing can be done about the issues mentioned.  If it involves a specific component of the game, the problem should be brought up on the appropriate article's Talk Page, not some massive, unorganized complaint page.  The way I see it, any pages like this, even if they're cleaned up, are little more than a forum. Dlarsh  23:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
This is just a thought, and I might be out of my mind, so bear with me.  What do we think of moving these pages to a permanent "gripes" section in the forums?  That way we don't lose the discussions or the ideas, but we won't have to worry about its...state of disrepair on the wiki.  We could do the same with the Roleplaying pages too, if we were so inclined, although that would have to be part of a separate discussion. –Eshe  02:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
:On the surface, at least, I like that idea (for both Gripes and Roleplaying)!  That said, though, I've never significantly contributed to the forums, so I'm not really sure if there are any concerns either with the technical details of moving them or with having the content there. —Robin Hood   07:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

::Roleplaying articles at least have useful edits made to them, once in a while. The idea of permanently archiving the Gripes certainly prevents the unhelpful edits that are made to the articles, but I doubt that storing them at the forums will be good. I don't visit the forums, but I think they wouldn't like us dumping our content there, because we can't fit it in here. 

::Personally I feel that articles that don't warrant contributions have a trivial existence. --Timenn-  08:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
:::I don't think it is beneficial to keep the gripes anywhere, frankly. I think it should just be deleted. –Elliot   02:40, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

:::: I've been trying to organize these better, with a number of Q&A tips and workarounds, but it's mainly turning out to be garbage, plus links to mods. Unless someone really does care about these gripes, let them fall away into the wind.    Lukish    08:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)