UESPWiki:Archive/CP Reorganizing Tamriel Books

Reorganizing Tamriel Books

As part of my ongoing efforts to make it easier to find and link wiki pages, I'd like to propose a substantial reorganization of the Tamriel Books section.  Specifically, I would like to:
Eliminate the "Books/" prefix
Stop mangling book names by moving "The" or "A" to the end of the book name
So, for example, the current page "Tamriel:Books/Firmament,_The" would be moved to "Tamriel:The Firmament".

The "Books/" prefix is the last remnant of a page organization system that has otherwise been phased out.  The main benefits of the prefix are: (a) it is easy to identify the page as a book page, and (b) if you pull up the list of all pages in the Tamriel namespace, the books are all listed together.  However, categories provide a much better way of accomplishing these tasks.  In particular, pulling up the Category:Tamriel Library category is a much easier way to find all the books than wading through all of the Tamriel pages.

On the other hand, using the "Books/" prefix makes it more difficult to find the pages using the search "Go" function and means it is much more work to create links to books.  For almost any other item that you find while playing Oblivion, if you type its name in the searchbox and click "Go" you will be taken straight to the article describing that item.  But for books, that will never work with the current system, because the "Go" button looks for exact name matches and does not know to add a "Books/" prefix onto the names.  As for creating links, the prefix requires the book name to always be typed out in full twice every time you want to add a link to a book.  In other words   will produce Books/Beggar.  To get a properly labeled link you need to type  .

The arguments for/against mangling the names ("Firmament, The" instead of "The Firmament") are fairly similar.  The only reason to do it is to improve alphabetization.  However, in manually created lists (e.g., ), it's not needed and the book names are generally listed unmangled on all such pages.  In automatically created lists, e.g. category lists, it is trivial to get the names to alphabetize properly by filling in the sort key (see, for example :Category:Oblivion-Quests).  On the downside are the same issues with "Go" and creating links as described in the previous paragraph.  In addition, the books are the only items in the game that end up with page names that do not match the name of the item in game.  This has repeatedly led to people being unable to find books and as a result creating duplicate books.  Even when people try to follow the system, there is confusion.  For example, there are pages for both  and .

NepheleBot would do most of the work, so the changeover would occur fairly painlessly and quickly.  While unleashing the Bot, I'd like to do a couple of secondary changes, mainly because it's easiest to do all the changes at once.
Rename "/Desc" page to "/Description" (for consistency with all other description-type subpages)
Add categories to all the subpages (this was started a while ago and never completed)
Make sure that the books all have a breadcrumb trail and category (so that they can all be found easily after the reorg is complete).

The various book templates would also have to be changed to take into account the new naming system.  I'll manually update the book templates.  The reorg will be done in such a way that the templates will be fully functional up until the time they're changed, at which point the new pages will already be in place allowing the revised templates to immediately work.  So the disruption to articles should be pretty minimal, and limited to a few minutes right at the moment the template changeover happens.

Any objections, concerns, queries?  Or have I overlooked any other automated changes that also need to be done to the books? --Nephele  16:50, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

:Sounds fine to me. The only problem is with the movement of "The" and "A" to the start; if somebody does look at a category list (breadcrumb trail for instance) there'll be a lot of entries under "T" and "A". Could the bot also add the default sort order tags to affected books? (   ) My only other concern is that it'll almost certainly go back ahead of me in Active Users :-) --Rpeh  07:23, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

::I don't think this will make a lot of entries end up under "T" and "A"; as I pointed out, there are categories containing large numbers of entries starting with "The" and "A" where the entries are properly alphabetized, e.g., :Category:Oblivion-Quests.  Entries only end up listed under "T" and "A" if nobody ever bothers to set up the sort key properly.  As part of the reorganization, I'll make sure that all of the currently existing books are properly set up.  So that will just leave new books that get added; someone just needs to make sure (a single time) that the sort keys are correct.  
::As for using the default sort feature, I'm pretty sure that the only way to make it work would be to revamp all of our existing breadcrumb trails and templates (and even then I'd want to do some experiments beforehand to make sure that it could be made to work).  The problem is that all of our categories explicitly set the sort key to be  .  So that setting will override any default sort key.  To fix it, we would need to go through and set     in every template that creates categories and then delete the   label for all the categories.  And we would need to double check that if     is set in a template that an article can then have a second, manually-set key (e.g.,    ) that will override the template's key.
::Long term using the default sort feature would probably be a better way to do all of our categories, but it's a feature that was only introduced with Mediawiki version 1.10, i.e., it's only been available on UESP since May.  And it's a job that NepheleBot can't particularly help with: I've set up the bot to never edit pages in the Template namespace because those edits can easily bog down the server.  All that the bot could do is go through all the pages that use the templates to delete any redundant categories and specify   where needed.  --Nephele  12:56, 29 July 2007 (EDT)
:::All this talk of 'T' and 'A' is making me wonder if I'm on the wrong site... Anyhow, I don't see that the "DEFAULTSORT" thing is necessary.  Simply specifying the sorting word in the category definition, e.g.   will be enough to make    sorted under 'B' and not 'T'.  I have one additional request, however, which I think would be another good job for the bot.  After all the books have been moved, can we create a bunch of redirects in each of the games' namespaces which go directly to the books?  That way, if I wanted to link to a specific book from a Morrowind page, I wouldn't need to type in   , I could simply type in  , and it would automatically go to   , which would then redirect me to the Tamriel page.     would of course go to the same place from Oblivion pages.  The only potential problem would be if there are any books which have the same name as existing pages, like quests or something.  I don't think there's that many of those, if any, but it's a possibility.  If so, I think a standard disambiguation page should serve to alleviate the problem. --TheRealLurlock   14:59, 29 July 2007 (EDT)
::::I'm probably being over-cautious, but if any of the books are in categories without a sort key they'll end up sorted by the new page name. That was the only reason I mentioned it. Thinking about it, I don't imagine there are many books in categories at all, let alone without a sort key so it's probably not an issue - and certainly nothing that should hold up the bot. Lurlock's right too - 'T' and 'A' plus Nephele's Bot. What is the site coming to??? --Rpeh  04:36, 31 July 2007 (EDT)
:::::Trust me, using the formatting I suggested above DOES work to alphabetize pages correctly.  the DEFAULTSORT thing is a feature we haven't been using because there's no need for it.  If you specify the category correctly, it will sort where it's supposed to.
:::::Incidentally, I changed my mind about the redirects - I'm thinking a better way to go would be transcludes.  That way, when you go to   , you might see game-specific information for where the book is found, what skills it teaches, who needs it for a quest, etc.  (I know it's a 2-volume book and not quest-related, but it's just an example.)  The same book may have different information for different games, and transcludes would allow you to put that info right on the book page, with the actual text transcluded below it.  Good idea? --TheRealLurlock   10:00, 31 July 2007 (EDT)
::::::Good Idea! I'm in. You get my supporting vote. --Playjex 10:07, 31 July 2007 (EDT)
::::::I meant if there were already categories on the books there'd be a problem - I'm well aware of the sort key. This is the disadvantage of trying to hold a discussion over several days and in plain text; nuance is often lost. Anyway - the DEFAULTSORT debate is now going on elsewhere. I agree with what Nephele's doing to the books and I agree with you about transcludes. That'd be another nice big task for a group of people. --Rpeh  08:30, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

::::::I like this transclusion idea very much, especially the game-specific info like quests, where to find copies, etc. Go for it! --DrPhoton 09:01, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

:::::::Question - what should we do with Author/Description pages and the Trails when used on the transclude pages?   illustrates that the Book Info template is pulling from the wrong place.  We could duplicate or make redirects for the Author/Description pages, or change the Book Info template to use the Tamriel pages for this.  Trails will probably need to be redone.  Any thoughts on the best way to handle this? --TheRealLurlock   10:05, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

I'd say the Book Info template should be updated.  I'd much rather do that than create some 2000 additional redirects just to trick the existing template into working.  There are probably lots of other things that are going to come up as we start creating game-specific transcludes for all the books.  In particular, I think there should be some standard way of adding information such as the book ID, info on skill books, marker books, etc.; on the Tamriel pages I'd say there should be some type of listing (with links) to games where the book is used.

In fact, we probably want to make it so that the standard Book Info template doesn't even get displayed on the transcluded version of the page, and instead have a second template used on game-specific versions of book pages that allows for all the additional info to be shown. --Nephele  12:36, 1 August 2007 (EDT)
:I threw together a simple layout here.  Think you can work something nice out of that?  (It doesn't have to look exactly like that, it was just a suggestion.)  --TheRealLurlock   13:21, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Transcludes
Okay, I've altered the templates, and added bread crumb trails for all letters in all namespaces.  So now if you look at , you get different info on the top than at  or .  I designed it in such a way that ALL the info, regardless of which games use it, is stored on the Tamriel page.  That way the namespace pages can be nothing but a transclude, with nothing else added.  (You'll notice if you edit them that the Bloodmoon and Oblivion pages are identical.)  This should make things simple for the bot to create all the redirects.  We just need to add the info to the Tamriel pages manually.  Creating the transclude pages probably shouldn't be done until the pages are all moved out of the "Books/" hierarchy.  But at least now it's ready to go and should be a fairly seamless process. --TheRealLurlock   15:54, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

:Sorry to say, I'm not too keen on the direction you're taking with the templates right now.  I think the revisions to the templates are already getting overly complicated (after adding only a fraction of the new parameters).  And these new templates will be incredibly difficult to do any type of updates or maintenance on.  Some of my concerns are:
:* I'm not in favor of nesting templates like you're doing on Template:Book Info right now.  Having one template call another is much too difficult.  If you want to add a parameter, you need to do it in two separate places and document it in two separate places.  And with the Book Info template passing through parameters for every game-specific template there will end up being hundreds of paramters in that one template. I think just directly calling the template you want is much simpler for everyone in the long term.
:* I don't think we need to have separate Bloodmoon Book Info, Tribunal Book Info, Morrowind Book Info, etc. templates.  Although I realize that a one-in-all template like NPC Summary can be awkward at times, I still think it is overall much easier to just have one template.  Otherwise you constantly run into features that were added to one template but not another, causing confusion over why something doesn't work in one place when it works elsewhere.
:* I don't think any of the Book Trail templates are needed.  I'd much rather have the trail/category built right into the main book template instead of having 200 separate trail templates that need to be updated when we decide that some trivial change is needed.
:* I don't really like the layout of the sandbox page.  My first reaction is that I like having the title/author right at the top of the page when I open a book.  Maybe it's just that's what I'm used to, but definitely having the locations be the first thing that I read on the page is confusing.  I could see having the "extra" info in an infobox (ID, skills, value, weight, even locations).  But I don't think it works for the main information like title, author, and description.

:Overall with the book templates I think the best way to approach it would be to have the Book Info template on the Tamriel pages be enclosed in noinclude brackets.  Then on each transcluded page, have a new Book Info template that provides the information specific to that game.  So for example, the  would look something like:
  
:I think that is a much simpler way to use, code, and maintain the templates.  Also it means that when you want to update Bloodmoon-specific information you are editing the Bloodmoon page; you're not putting game-specific info (even hidden info) into the Tamriel pages.
:If you don't see how to make the templates work the way that I'm envisioning them, I'm happy to do the work on updating the templates and/or creating new ones.  But I don't want to jump in and step on your toes if you'd prefer to work on them. --Nephele  16:09, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

::Aw, gee.  That took some serious brain-stretching to figure out how to do all that, and then you gotta go and ruin it for me.  Personally, I think it's kind of cool being able to put all the info in one place.  As for new parameters, I'm pretty sure I got everything that'd be necessary.  Okay, except value/weight, easy enough to add those.  As for my layout ideas, it's all purely temporary.  I just wanted to get the info in there somehow.  Anyhow, if you want to tear it all up and do it your way, go ahead.  I just felt like stretching my template-legs a bit... --TheRealLurlock   16:21, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

:::We're obviously going to have to reach a decision on where all the game-specific information belongs.  In my opinion, it's game-specific and therefore by default the information should go on the game-specific version of the page.  Organizationally, that's where it belongs.  And the wiki is set up to take advantage of the namespaces.  For example, the default namespace features won't work on the Tamriel page; all place and quest links would have to have their namespaces explicitly provided.  Also, having hidden information on a page just doesn't seem like a good solution.  When you're adding information to the page, the preview button doesn't work to tell you whether your links are correct; you have to save the page, then pull up another page to check whether your edit was correct (another page that doesn't even have a link on the current page to make it easy to access it).
:::If there was no practical or straightforward way to add it to the game-specific page, then having it on the Tamriel page would seem somewhat acceptable.  But in this case, practical reasons such as simplifying the templates also say that it is far easier to have the information on the game-specific pages.
:::But if everyone disagrees with me and thinks the info should all be added to the Tamriel pages, then my ideas about how to organize the templates will need to be completely rethought. --Nephele  16:51, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

:::I appreciate all the work you've done Lurlock, but I have to agree with Nephele regarding the transclusions. Editing all the game specific info on that game's page is far more transparent for the editors, even if it's not as smart as your nested templates solution. As Nephele mentioned, I would go for something like the NPC Summary or the Quest Header templates, just like above. --DrPhoton 03:17, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Formatting
One other thing that occurred to me would be an appropriate side-task for the bot while doing this project - Book titles should always be italicized when they appear in text.  In many cases, they aren't, so if you could add this little tweak to any pages with book links, it would be a good thing. --TheRealLurlock   20:44, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

Progress
I've started to get the bot working on this at last, trying to start with the "easy" ones, but even so finding a few inevitable twists and complications ;) Some of the new pages can be seen at , , at  (there are a dozen others, NepheleBot contributions can be used to find some of the pages that have been done).

To make my life a bit less difficult, I've created a new {{Deleted|Template:Book Summary}} template that is being used for the formatting on these pages.  Most of the details of that layout are somewhat preliminary: my main focus was to set up the names of the parameters so that the bot can paste in the basics of the template.  All of the formatting can easily be tweaked.  Also, most of the game-specific information hasn't been filled in (the links I picked above are the only that have any type of information and even so it's pretty meager).

In case anyone is wondering, all the other templates that use books (Book Link, Book Normal, Template:Book Magic) won't be modified until all of the books have been moved.  Until then, there will continue to be multiple links to the old book pages (although the pages are being turned into redirects to the new pages).  If things go really well, that might be tomorrow.  Hopefully, the worst case scenario is a few days.

If anyone has any feedback or notices any problems with the new pages as they start to appear, let me know :) Also, if anyone would like to flesh out the new pages (add IDs, values, weights, locations, skill books, etc., etc.) feel free to jump in!  --Nephele  20:06, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

:Only one question so far - have we decided how multi-volume books are going to be handled?  Are we still going to keep them as separate transcludes in one mother book page?  And if so, will the Book Summary template still function properly on both the mother pages and the separate volume pages?  And should the mother page exist in both the Tamriel namespace and the relevant gamespaces?  Or only in Tamriel?  (Okay, that was more than one question, but they're all related.)  Just had to ask since you hadn't gotten to any of those ones yet.  The really tricky ones are going to be the series books without consistant titles - Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, and the whole Beggar/Thief/Warrior/King series.  I assume you planned for those, but I have to ask, because that's where the biggest hangups are going to be I think.  Looking good so far though. --TheRealLurlock   21:17, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

::Let's just say it's not a coincidence that I started with "A" instead of with , where all the books are huge multi-volume books ;).  But I've just been ironing out the last few details of the multi-volume books, using the Palla books as a test case.  So I think I'm ready to tackle the rest of them now.
::My current plan is to keep the Tamriel structure the same, with individual volumes (the only pages containing any real content) and a consolidated book assembled using transclusions.  Then there will be transcludes for both the individual volumes and the consolidated book in each gamespace.  Individual volumes are definitely needed as a place to provide volume-specific info (ID, skill trained, etc).  And the consolidated book typically is refered to a few times, besides just being convenient.
::The crosslinks for these books are using NAMESPACE to help make the links point to the right places.  There are a few (as always, the Barenziah books...) where the individual book names are different in Morrowind and Oblivion; I'll have to manually put in some even fancier links for those books.  There don't seem to be any problems with the Book Summary template.  The bigger problem was with the navigation footer on the pages: how to get it to appear when transcluded as an individual page but not appear when put into a consolidated book.  I think I've solved the problem with a new  that turns the text on or off depending upon the pagename. --Nephele  02:28, 14 September 2007 (EDT)