UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives/Temporary Role Changes

Temporary Role Changes
We're three weeks away from Skyrim's release, and it's time to make a couple of temporary changes. At the moment we don't have many active admins, and while I'm sure the active status of some will change after 11/11/11, it's best to be prepared. I'd like to propose the following five users for temporary adminship, to last from the moment of their acceptance until the end of 29/2/2012, unless said duration be reduced or extended by community vote:
 
 
 
 
 

Additionally, one extra Bureaucrat is to be created for the same period:
 

The thinking here is that a few extra admins will be able to help out with the extra load while the new game is being added to the site, and that an extra 'crat is a good idea to enable new admins to be created if really necessary or removed, if really really necessary. Just to be clear: these new admins/'crats would have all the rights and responsibilities of the role. One reason for making the changes now is that it gives three weeks to learn the ropes before Skyrim is released.

I don't want to apply any arm-twisting here, but after the game's immediate release the current active admins will be mostly involved in decoding the game files so that new pages can be created by bot. We're going to need extra eyes on the site.

I also don't want to cast aspersions on the contributions of any other editor. If you're a patroller who isn't on this list, it's because you haven't been active enough. One reason for creating an extra Bureaucrat is that extra admins can be created quickly, should that prove necessary.

My final point is that everybody should remember that this isn't about power: it's about responsibility. These new admins are going to have to spend a little less time playing the game, and a little more time taking care of the site. If any of them want to decline the role, this is the time to do it. rpeh  23:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

:The promotions are now effective.  While I was at it, I also gave all give of our new admins Cartographer permissions, in anticipation of eventually having a Skyrim map that may need some edits (the cartographer link contains a list of special pages that should now be available).  I'm inclined to think the cartographer rights should be permanent, but if there are other opinions, we can discuss it. --Nephele  14:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

::I'd like to advise the new cartographers to be careful when it comes to editing the map. There's no history, no "undo" button and no Recent Changes, so nobody else can even see that a change has been made. A little testing is fine, but please make sure you put things back the way they were. rpeh  15:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Votes
Support As proposer. rpeh  23:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose What is your main reasoning behind this in terms of responsibilities? Blocking? Because we have blockers for that. Protection? Make a protection group. I mean... I don't believe this is necessary, let alone having five more administrators. Checkuser isn't necessary, and the other rights aren't used enough. Expand the rights of patrollers and blockers for a few months rather than granting administrative privileges. elliot   23:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Support If it will help lighten the load of Skyrim's launch, by all means. I know some of these guys fairly well, and I know how dedicated and committed they are. --OblivionDuruza 02:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Support (Yes, I'm still around) This sounds like a good idea to me. The release of Skyrim is all but guaranted to tax our current admin team, and having some more competent editors to help out until things return to normal seems to have little dowside to it from my point of view. Five seems like more than we'd really need at the moment, but I would definately prefer we have more temp-admins than we need as opposed to not enough. As for Elliot's question, I would say that if we're going to temporarily provide people with the major rights and privilages of admins (protection rights and permanent blocks being the most prevalent), we might as well make them temporary admins. Just my two cents. Dlarsh  20:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Support I think that this is a good decision, if we indeed get an in-flux of new and experienced editors that we seem to be anticipating it will indeed help out. If we don't get all the new editors, it's only a temporary measure. Although of course Elliot's point is a valid one, more Blockers or a Protection group would achieve the desired effect. I think that all the proposed editors definitely have earned their suggest positions.--       20:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Support Everybody on that list deserves admin privileges, even if it is only temporarily. And getting more admins can only beneficial with Skyrim coming out so soon. Kitkat xxx   20:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Support I think it's a good idea, when skyrim comes out there are going to be a lot of pages being created daily, the extra admins would help. If there are any problems, the decision can also just be undone anyway. On top of that, everybody on the list is easily qualified. RIM 20:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Question: Are those being nominated supposed to vote? In any case, I accept my nomination. --Legoless 22:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Yup, feel free to vote. You're not just voting for yourself, after all. rpeh  06:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: It is quite an honor to be nominated, I don't really see myself as one of the "big fish". While one does not have to devote his life to the wiki, these added responsibilities do sound a bit... well... to perhaps put it bluntly: constraining? The thing is that, I don't know what to expect, and I sense that none here really know what to expect. I'm referring to the activity on the site after 11/11 that needs to be patrolled, fixed, etc. I do tend to underestimate myself, but I picture myself merely cleaning up people's messes like anyone else here can, nothing too complicated, leaving the big stuff to what I think are the big fish around here. Notable is the fact that I tend to screw up at first when given new rights, e.a. blocking myself... Anyway, I just want to point out that, like everyone here I believe, I want to play more game and do less wiki time. However, I probably overrate the meaning of activity on the wiki. I expect me to check the site a couple of times every day, which I usually do, but I'd be hoping it would be short checkings considering I want to be playing. I suppose that, should I be considered not to follow up on those responsibilities, this status can be revoked earlier, so I suppose there's nothing to fear here. So I'll trust your trust in me, and let's just see what happens. To end my rambling, I'm fine with the other nominees by the way ~ Dwarfmp 05:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: I support all other nominees. I also accept my nomination, in case that it wasn't already clear that I do. --AKB   22:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: I have no problems with the proposed role changes. --Legoless 22:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Support: I made not be at liberty to say this because of past things, but I agree completely with the decision to temporarily promote the users nominated Honda1996 23:35 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Support: The second that game comes out, and people start putting hours of their lives into Skyrim, the forums AND the wiki are going to be flooded with spam about the game and all kinds of new info. This ALSO means that lots of old spammers that switched IPs to troll, along with hundreds of other ones are going to start taking advantage of the post flooding. You might want to nominate a few more users than that, though.--I a m g o o f b a l l--Need Something? Drop by on my Talk Page. What I've done for this site. 02:09, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
:*Recommendation: We might also want to make it so that Skyrim can only be edited by logged in users, so that trolls have to go through the process of making their account. They should also have to have 5 edits to non user-space areas to be able to post anything in Skyrim, and then they have to be there for 10 days. Not many trolls I know of would show that much commitment to trolling, besides the old troll on the Forums who trolled for a long time. I hope you take these in consideration.--I a m g o o f b a l l--Need Something? Drop by on my Talk Page. What I've done for this site. 02:09, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
::*Comment: To avoid derailing this vote, I'd suggest you start a new topic to discuss this. While the suggestion to shut off or limit editing for anonymous and new users has been shot down multiple times, most recently in the Starting to Create Skyrim Content discussion, it still is quite a popular suggestion. Though I'm almost positive that this idea will be rejected, I can't stop you from discussing this. Consider making a topic on this page or on the Community Portal, as this suggestion will most likely be ignored or forgotten about here. --AKB   02:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Support: One major factor from my point of view is that after the game's release, rpeh and I are likely to be putting all of our effort into extracting game data, running bots, and other behind-the-scenes activities.  Even though we'll still be watching the wiki, the less time we need to put into wiki maintenance, the better.  In response to Elliot specifically, there are many admin duties besides blocks and protections that are going to be needed after Skyrim comes out.  Two that immediately come to mind are page deletions (sometimes speedily, e.g. for plagiarized content or spam) and editing the Main Page, especially for news updates.  Therefore, I think it's safer to give this group of people all the admin rights -- if we try to come up with a shortened list of rights, we risk finding out on November 12th that there's an unexpected need for one of the omitted rights.  --Nephele  20:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
You make a good point, but it does not shy away from the fact that I believe I am more qualified than most if not all of the members listed. I may not exactly be active right now, but of course that will change with Skyrim. elliot   01:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
I guess I will echo the fact that I believe I should be placed on this list. There is no reason as to why some users were considered above me. elliot   22:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
The fact is that you are not on the list, and this discussion is now effectively over -- it's been a week, with nearly unanimous support.  The list is not going to be modified at this point.  --Nephele  00:05, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: I definitely support this “better-safe-than-sorry”-approach. Nobody can predict what will happen on November 11th, so a temporary promotion of the above-mentioned people is a no-brainer - for all the reasons stated by Nephele above. An awful lot of pages will be created – and an incredible pile of information will be added, and it will take weeks and months before we know what is wrong and what is right. This way, we can at least make a decent attempt to control what is going on. --Krusty 20:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: I think that this is for the best it will help us get skyrim info on the site sooner because the current admins will not have to deal with the trolls or spammer and ect.----''Candc4, Also known as the Man Inside the Sexy Leather Pants CT 15:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Support''': A bit late, but a whole-hearted support for everyone else on the list. I haven't been as active in the past month due to university commitments, but I will make a special effort once Skyrim has been released. I will of course be playing the game on 11/11 and probably during the weekend, but I'll try to pop in on the site and check that the world hasn't collapsed :P  I am torn between accepting the position or not, as I'm afraid I might not be able to fulfill it completely, but I do realize that we need experienced editors to give an extra hand, and considering I am by far the most experienced user on the list, I feel it is my duty to help out our admin team. All the best to everyone, --SerCenKing   19:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: I didn't really have to give too much thought to this. All of the editors chosen are perfectly capable and (as far as I know). We'll need thaton 11/11/11 when the onslaught of new visitors and editors begins. Full support from me.--Kalis Agea  20:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Consensus: Support

Addendum
Since Nephele "decided" the previous discussion was over, I figured I would start a new one. I am proposing that I be added to the list above. My reasoning is fairly simple. I have been on this site for quite some time, and I know more about MediaWiki, templates, and CSS than anyone on the site (barring rpeh and Nephele). If you are going to determine the most qualified (minus those two since they will be doing background work), then I can't see how you can exclude me. If you want to bring up past drama, then feel free to do so. However, most people are over all of it, so you should be too. You picked a whole lot of content editors, but who will do the dubious work on maintenance? Me, and I am willing to do it. What more do you need? Thanks. elliot   01:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I am still hearing thing from people saying I do not qualify to be a temporary administrator. I know this is rather ridiculous, so I will dig up some discussions and proposals that have universally helped the wiki. First off, the Dropping the Ball on Vandalism Among Other Things discussion consisted of 8 proposals by me to help quell the vandalism we were having around that time. This led to a massive discussion that benefited the wiki tremendously. Also there was this addition that saved us a whole bunch of trouble for awhile. You might say, "Oh, you don't need admin rights to continue that." But that is essentially missing the point. I understand what needs to be done, and I know how to do it. Also, there is a lot more, but those two are ones that stuck out in my head. If you have any concerns, feel free to email me. elliot   17:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Votes
Support as proposer. elliot   01:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose.  A key criterion in selecting the five editors listed above was that they are patrollers.  You are not a patroller, and it's far from obvious that even a patroller nomination would succeed at this point.  Furthermore, knowledge of MediaWiki, templates, CSS are not the most important factors in selecting admins.  You can edit templates without being an admin; MediaWiki and CSS changes are not frequently needed.  None of your "qualifications" are particularly relevant for the specific admin tasks identified in the previous discussion.  --Nephele  02:13, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
::I would say I am shocked, but I hate lying. I don't want to be a patroller. Been there. Done that. Not interested. And there were no qualifications established in the prior discussion, so actually come up with a reason as to why I am less qualified than the other editors and stop wasting my time. elliot   02:25, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. ok first things first, I sorry if anyone gets offended from what I'm about to say, but the whole premise of elliot's argument is fatally flawed,  It was obvious that to a vote of 1 opposed and 16 in support, that it would be supported and elliot claims he is more qualified than all the patrollers being recommended even though he has failed to back this up with actual evidence that he "deserves" it, thank you for reading this Honda1996 03:27 October 29th 2011
::First, I never said I wanted to remove any of the above editors from the list. Second, not that edit count means a whole lot, but I have more edits than AKB, DKong, and Dwarfmp combined. It just shows that I have my share of contributions to the site (and that it is easily deserved). elliot   03:52, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

ok elliot, since your case of why this should not reach a consensus even though you clearly lost, so I'm going to make it clear here, I will always oppose you, I will make sure you are never put into a real position of power, you are flat out the most abusive editor on this site, you hurt new editors instead of helping them, and yes I know this is probably be removed by either a admin or you, so I end this nowHonda1996 03:27 October 29th 2011 (UTC)

Support: I had to toss this idea around for a bit, but I think that I've come to a decision. So, before I call it a night, allow me to explain why I voted "Support".

:* The Shadow of the Past: I think that Elliot's history on this site is holding sway over many decisions based around him. I can say that although I have read all of what happened (or most of it at least), I was not there when the controversey with Elliot began; thus, I don't have a sour taste in my mouth, so to speak. What I mean is that we shouldn't be letting Elliot's past cast a shadow over our judgement. He has definately learned from his mistakes.

:* Monkey See, Monkey Do: Another reason I'm inclined to say that Elliot deserves this position is the tremendous amount of excellent work he has done, and how that has caused him to be one of my main inspirations (not to sound too cheesy) as far as editing goes. Additionally, his huge edit count is testament to his dedication to the UESPWiki. That being said, I'm not voting "Support" because I "like" Elliot or because I think he's "super awesome", but rather because I have seen what he has done and believe that it has earned him this temporary position.

:* A Pleasure to Work With: Yep, no clever section name for this one. ;) But in all seriousness, Elliot is overall an edit whom I genuinely enjoy working with. At the same time, if he has an issue or a concern, he states it immediately and rarely sugar-coats it. Honestly, we need another Administrator like that, however temporary the position may be.

::There really isn't anything more to say. I certainly hope that this turns out with a consensus of "Support", despite my gut telling me that it may already be dragging towards "Oppose". After all, my gut is hardly ever right (I mean, my gut told me that the FI would be removed after all that controversey over it).--Kalis Agea  06:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Support: Elliot's knowledge on Mediawiki is certainly above average, and I fail to see why he shouldn't be given the same temporary rights as the ones above. Just because he is not a patroller does not mean he is less qualified, and events in the past have little to no relevance on this temporary admin status. I do think that elliot is sometimes less than tactful if I might be so blunt, and the whole foreplay to this preposition is an example of that, but as I stated before, that has no direct bearing on this temporary status. Wolok gro-Barok 15:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Before I support you, I need an explanation on something you've said. As our article on Administrators clearly states, all administrators are also patrollers. To be an administrator, is to be a patroller. However, you've said several times that you don't wish to be a patroller, despite you wanting to be an administrator. Do you intend to just ignore that part of the job, or are you willing to accept patroller responsibilities only if they are alongside administrative responsibilities? I can't vote either way without an answer. --AKB   01:50, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
::I said it in the below section, so I am just guessing you didn't look there. ''Also, I check edits currently, but it's not really my focus. If I had the rights by being a temp. admin, then I would obviously use them; I just wouldn't work at it like I did as a patroller back in 2009. There was essentially a time when the only ones patrolling were myself and rpeh. We patolled... a lot. I would naturally do it. elliot   02:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
:::Support:''' Good enough for me. Elliot is a competent editor, he has a lot of experience under his belt, and he generally is assists the site. While he can have a bit of a temper, who doesn't? Generally, I'm willing to trust him to do the right thing for the site. I'm sure that he deserves this punishment if he wants it. --AKB   03:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to support this at the moment. You opposed the proposal because you didn't get on the list; your addendum is about you being added to the list. When you made your proposal you felt it necessary to take a little dig at the closing admin, who was simply doing what was required and closing the discussion after one week.
: I don't think anybody doubts you are technically competent to hold the extra responsibilities, but everything I see tells me that you aren't temperamentally suited for them. If you had proposed that "blockers" rather than "you" should be added to the list if would indicate a little thought about others. You have often stated that trying to achieve consensus is a waste of time and that people should simply do what's necessary, which is a deeply worrying position for a potential admin to hold, but this makes your comments about the closure of the original vote hypocritical. In other words, it seems to me that you see consensus as being "What Elliot Wants".
: So how to move forward? I'd like to see an apology for the negative comments you've made on this page during the course of the recent debates. You've attacked editors for inexperience, you've criticised other people's actions, and you've been generally abrasive, with comments like "stop wasting my time". And not one of these hypothetical apologies that seem to pass as contrition elsewhere "I'm sorry if you were offended", which  is utter garbage as far as I'm concerned. You've been making quite a few edits away from here, which is good, and I'd like to see that continue. And I'd like to see a more friendly attitude in discussions on this page. I don't think any of those requests are unreasonable.
: Lastly, I'll make the same comment about this topic that I did about UserPatrollers getting the tboverride flag: if it's misused, the role - and with it the flag - can be removed in the same manner it was granted, ie by an admin simply taking it away. People qualify for permanent blocker status when two admins agree, and so if two admins agree that it's time to take the role away, the extra admin rights would go too. Do you understand and accept this to be the case?
: Several people have mentioned leaving the past behind, and I want to make it clear that I'm doing that. My concerns, as I've already pointed out elsewhere, are based purely on the posts that Elliot has made on this page over the past couple of weeks. If I can see that Elliot understands the problems and is willing to address them then I'll support blockers being added to the list. rpeh  10:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
::I opposed the proposal at first because I didn't think it was needed. As time went on, I felt that it would probably be best if we did end up having a little more stability. And yes, I made that "dig" because Nephele took it upon herself to take a dig at me: ''The fact is that you are not on the list, and this discussion is now effectively over -- it's been a week, with nearly unanimous support. The list is not going to be modified at this point.'' She had no authority to say such a thing or to back it up, as can be seen by this discussion I created and her subsequent opposition. 
::Blockers would make some sense, but the difference between that group and patrollers is: me. I'm the only non-patroller blocker. I think the fact that I haven't used my blocker rights is a good indication that I know how to handle extra buttons. There have been a few times when I fot pretty close to blocking, but instead, I took a deep breath and it died down (therefore, I didn't relight the fires by blocking, as some tadmins have done recently). I haven't said much about consensus as of late, but I do remember making it clear, in your request for adminship, that what I believed in wasn't always right. My views are not set in stone. 
::Now, I will not apologize because all of my angst is typically against one user, and that is Nephele. I am not going to beat around the bush. She doesn't like me; I don't like her. We move on. 
::Also, I'm not a child who gets ordered around to apologize, because even if I said it, I wouldn't mean it. If you want me to lie, then say so. 
::I'll tone in down in the future, but if some people are going to throw unwarranted attitude my way, then they should simply accept it when they get it from me. If they want to treat me like an editor of this site, then they will get my respect and kindness. elliot   02:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
: : In the light of that reply, I can't do anything else. I'm genuinely sorry this is the case. rpeh  07:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
::I'm going to strike this because my history with Elliot is going to lead to accusations of bias no matter how much it's not the case. I just deleted a post that had taken about an hour to write about the nuances of this discussion because it was only going to add more fuel to the fire, no matter how carefully I wrote it. rpeh  00:08, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: Before this whole discussion, I was tempted to give Elliot another chance at a position of responsibility. However, it is obvious that he still hasn't really learnt from his past mistakes: his attitude towards other users and towards the wiki and the way it operates, as pointed out by rpeh,  are simply incompatible with the role of an admin. Of course, Elliot is one of the three most technically skilled people on this wiki, and I praise the work he has done. However, Nephele has already pointed out that he does not require any new buttons to keep doing such work, and I see no reason whatsoever why he should be given them. --SerCenKing   11:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
::You don't really have much to back up your accusations of "attitude towards... the wiki and the way it operates". I mean, you continuously bring up my "past mistakes", so how can I get past that?  elliot   02:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: Since I have no idea what your "past mistakes" are, I'm going to base this vote purely on what I've seen in my time here. This is a good example of why I don't think you are temperamentally suited to be an admin. While nobody here could doubt your technical ability or your massive amount of contributions, your attitude towards other editors leaves a lot to be desired. Kitkat   08:06, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: I'm not going to bother with too many reasons - the events last night explains it all; it also explains why we didn’t ask you the first time ‘round and explains why people hesitate to vote. They can live without the endless bickering, reverts and fights. You clearly have no interest in helping the site, only an odd interest in getting a promotion you definitely don’t need.  --Krusty 10:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
::I have about 8,400 reasons that disprove your "no interest" comment. elliot   02:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: For reasons pointed out about your temprement I don't think you suit the role of administrator, even over this short proposed time period. I have noticed that, since around the time of the proposed temp admins, you temprement (especially in edit summaries) is somehow getting worse. I also wish to state that even this mornings has shown unsuitable traits in an admin, such as the obvious one about trying to change consensus to suit your aims. (I couldn't post this on the AN without wiping it clean, and i might not be on till friday so i thought i'd better vote sooner, rather than later) --       10:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
::I changed consensus on a majority vote. How is that horrible again? elliot   02:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Support: Yes I support you but only just. I think that you are certainly one of the most capable editors on the wiki and that you would help as an extra admin but you should be a bit more understanding. Nephele was only pointing out that the discussion was basically over, she wasn't really "having a dig" at you. The reason I support you is that you should get another chance for all of the great work you have done for the wiki. also, all temporary admins can be removed at any time so i feel that if you were to cause any trouble you would just get removed and there would be little damage done. By making Elliot a temporary admin it would give him another chance, it would help the wiki when Skyrim comes out and if he messes it up he can be removed. Based on the amount of good work he has done in the past I think he should get at least one more chance.RIM 14:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: Since you desire more votes, here's mine. You are making a big deal out of a temporary adminship. I can only assume you want to be a temporary admin so you can help out the site. However, you appear to want it so bad, that you'd even do the opposite (hindering the site) to get to your goal, because if you think ignoring administrators' decisions, undoing the same edit over and over again, etc. is helping out the site, I'm afraid you're mistaken. You should respect what administrators have to say, and not state you're not listening because you disagree. If you won't listen to administrators, you won't listen to anyone. How is that beneficial for a community site? You have the right to disagree, and it's good that you express your disagreement, but you have a tendency to express this in a wrong way. You brought up reasons why you are more fit as an administrator than me, for example, which are having more experience, edits, knowledge on templates etc., which are good reasons. However, I don't see any required experience and edits on the site on the administrator page, I'm fairly sure I've exceeded these requirements, and the difference between mine and yours are therefore unimportant (just wanted to state that, not that it's important). But you fail to see what people are bringing up here. Even as of now, I worry about getting a rather hostile reply from you, which should be something people don't have to worry about, especially from an admin, and I'm sure I'm not the only one expecting things like this from you, cause that's what you do. I can imagine things like pages being deleted and recreated, going on and on, since you have been given the power to do so. Don't tell me that isn't possible. That's the sort of vibe you express, so I advise you to listen to other people's advice on how to improve that vibe, and not blame them for ordering you around. I believe your behavior is more than enough to disqualify you for adminship. You are too quick to take a decision based on your own thoughts. Now, please respect my opinion, just like I respect yours ~ Dwarfmp 16:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
::I really could care less about it, to be honest. It's not going to be the end of the world for me whether I did get it or not. I am more qualified than even some administrators and felt it is an insult to not involve me in the discussion. I may be harsh at times, but that's what's required to knock sense into some people. elliot   02:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: My biggest problem is that I can't see any benefit to the wiki by granting you temporary admin rights.  Nothing that you've mentioned has clarified that point, which I'm not the first to raise.  On top of that, this entire discussion shows exactly why you can't be trusted, in any less-than-ideal situation, to behave in a way that reflects the image we- as a community- want to portray.  --GK  23:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
::I find this comment ''hilarious considering how some administrators act. elliot   02:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

;Consensus: Oppose. (Community response: 5 "Support", 8 "Oppose".  Consensus called by an uninvolved admin, 12 days after the proposal was first made.)  --GK'''  23:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)