On bitcoin-dev list admin and list noise

On bitcoin-dev list admin and list noise
2015-09-29 16:38 ` Santino Napolitano
  
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-09-29 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin development mailing list

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This was discussed in IRC, but (did I miss it?) never made it to the list
outside of being buried in a longer summary.

There is a common complain that bitcoin-dev is too noisy.  The response
plan is to narrow the focus of the list to near term technical changes to
the bitcoin protocol and its implementations (bitcoin core, btcd, ...)

Debates over bitcoin philosophy, broader context, etc. will start seeing
grumpy list admins squawk about "off-topic!"

It is a fair criticism, though, that "take it elsewhere!" needs to have
some place as a suggested destination.  The proposal is to create a second
list, bitcoin-tech-discuss or perhaps just 'bitcoin', with a more general
rubric.  This split has served IRC well and generally manages to keep the
noise down to a productive level.  We want this list to achieve that same
goal; if bitcoin-dev is not productive then it's not useful.

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2015-09-29 15:44 [bitcoin-dev] On bitcoin-dev list admin and list noise Jeff Garzik

  2015-09-29 17:07   ` Mark Friedenbach
  
From: Santino Napolitano @ 2015-09-29 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik, Bitcoin development mailing list

I'm not intending to completely dismiss your concerns but as a data point: I read this list daily and it usually takes 15 minutes or less while I drink a cup of coffee.

My concern is that this is one of the (maybe *the*) last uncensored persisted forums related to technical bitcoin discussion with wide viewership. It is increasingly difficult for an average somewhat technical person to attempt to hold the bitcoin development community accountable for its actions or have their voice heard. It would really be a shame if messages like this were relegated to a black hole where things like the exchange rate and various scammy spam goes to fester.

>Debates over bitcoin philosophy, broader context, etc. will start seeing grumpy list admins squawk about "off-topic!"

Who will draw this line? It's unclear to me who the list admins are.


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2015-09-29 16:38 ` Santino Napolitano

  2015-09-29 17:29     ` Mike Hearn
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2015-09-29 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Santino Napolitano;  Bitcoin development mailing list

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This mailing list was never meant to be a place "to hold the bitcoin
development community accountable for its actions [sic]." I know other
developers that have switched to digest-only or unsubscribed. I know if
this became a channel for PR and populist venting as you describe, I would
leave as well. This mailing list is meant to be a place to discuss ongoing
bitcoin development issues relating to the protocol and its instantiation
in bitcoin core. Please don't decrease the utility of this list by
expanding scope.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Santino Napolitano via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> I'm not intending to completely dismiss your concerns but as a data point:
> I read this list daily and it usually takes 15 minutes or less while I
> drink a cup of coffee.
>
> My concern is that this is one of the (maybe *the*) last uncensored
> persisted forums related to technical bitcoin discussion with wide
> viewership. It is increasingly difficult for an average somewhat technical
> person to attempt to hold the bitcoin development community accountable for
> its actions or have their voice heard. It would really be a shame if
> messages like this were relegated to a black hole where things like the
> exchange rate and various scammy spam goes to fester.
>
> >Debates over bitcoin philosophy, broader context, etc. will start seeing
> grumpy list admins squawk about "off-topic!"
>
> Who will draw this line? It's unclear to me who the list admins are.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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2015-09-29 17:07   ` Mark Friedenbach

  2015-09-29 17:59       ` Pavel Janík
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-09-29 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  Bitcoin development mailing list

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There's a simple way to cut down on "noise" that doesn't involve people
shouting OFFTOPIC at each other: the maintainer needs to resolve
discussions by making decisions and saying, this is how Core does it. If
you disagree, go make/join a fork because there's no point in discussing
this any further here. People would get the picture pretty fast.

Wladimir doesn't do this. That is something he should fix. Clearly ending
debates so they don't run in circles forever is a basic management
technique.

Allowing random people to give each other red cards is merely a great way
to piss off users even further, because anyone who objects to a clearly
bone-headed decision will be told they're discussing philosophy and to go
away (this is meaningless).

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2015-09-29 17:29     ` Mike Hearn

  
From: Pavel Janík @ 2015-09-29 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin development mailing list


> On 29 Sep 2015, at 19:29, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> There's a simple way to cut down on "noise" that doesn't involve people shouting OFFTOPIC at each other: the maintainer needs to resolve discussions by making decisions and saying, this is how Core does it.

Looks like you are mixing the maintainer of the Bitcoin Core with the bitcoin-dev mailing list moderator. Intentionally?
--  
Pavel Janík






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