Why are we bleeding nodes?

Why are we bleeding nodes?
2014-04-07 12:17 ` Ricardo Filipe
                   ` (4 more replies)
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 11:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
still falling:

   http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60

I know all the reasons why people *might* stop running a node (uses too
much disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any
idea how we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be
convenient if the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could
tell if the bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which
would be expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more
concerning.

When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things
you should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit
survey: if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the
operator and ask why they stopped.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 12:17 ` 
                   ` 
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 11:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
still falling:

   http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60

I know all the reasons why people *might* stop running a node (uses too
much disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any
idea how we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be
convenient if the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could
tell if the bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which
would be expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more
concerning.

When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things
you should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit
survey: if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the
operator and ask why they stopped.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
* 
  2014-04-07 11:34 [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes? Mike Hearn

  2014-04-07 13:43   ` Andreas Schildbach
  2014-04-07 12:19 ` 
                   ` 
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 70+ messages in thread
From: Ricardo Filipe @ 2014-04-07 12:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Dev

phasing out of bitcoinqt into spv wallets?

2014-04-07 12:34 GMT+01:00 Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net>:
> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
> still falling:
>
>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60
>
> I know all the reasons why people might stop running a node (uses too much
> disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any idea how
> we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be convenient if
> the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could tell if the
> bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which would be
> expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more concerning.
>
> When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
> file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things you
> should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit survey:
> if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the operator and ask
> why they stopped.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>



^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 70+ messages in thread
2014-04-07 12:19 ` Jameson Lopp

  2014-04-07 12:34     ` Mike Hearn
                       ` (2 more replies)
  
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-04-07 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jameson Lopp;  Bitcoin Dev

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail•com> wrote:
> I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one concerned about the consistent dropping of nodes. Though I think that the fundamental question should be: how many nodes do we really need? Obviously more is better, but it's difficult to say how concerned we should be without more information. I posted my thoughts last month: http://coinchomp.com/2014/03/19/bitcoin-nodes-many-enough/

In my opinion, the number of full nodes doesn't matter (as long as
it's enough to satisfy demand by other nodes).

What matters is how hard it is to run one. If someone is interesting
in verifying that nobody is cheating on the network, can they, and can
they without significant investment? Whether they actually will
depends also no how interesting the currency and its digital transfers
are.

> On 04/07/2014 07:34 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
>> still falling:
>>
>>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60

My own network crawler (which feeds my DNS seeder) hasn't seen any
significant drop that I remember, but I don't have actual logs. It's
seeing around 6000 "well reachable nodes" currently, which is the
highest number I've ever seen (though it's been around 6000 for quite
a while now).

-- 
Pieter



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 12:19 ` Jameson Lopp

  2014-04-07 12:34     ` 
                       ` 
  
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-04-07 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jameson Lopp;  Bitcoin Dev

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail•com> wrote:
> I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one concerned about the consistent dropping of nodes. Though I think that the fundamental question should be: how many nodes do we really need? Obviously more is better, but it's difficult to say how concerned we should be without more information. I posted my thoughts last month: http://coinchomp.com/2014/03/19/bitcoin-nodes-many-enough/

In my opinion, the number of full nodes doesn't matter (as long as
it's enough to satisfy demand by other nodes).

What matters is how hard it is to run one. If someone is interesting
in verifying that nobody is cheating on the network, can they, and can
they without significant investment? Whether they actually will
depends also no how interesting the currency and its digital transfers
are.

> On 04/07/2014 07:34 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
>> still falling:
>>
>>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60

My own network crawler (which feeds my DNS seeder) hasn't seen any
significant drop that I remember, but I don't have actual logs. It's
seeing around 6000 "well reachable nodes" currently, which is the
highest number I've ever seen (though it's been around 6000 for quite
a while now).

-- 
Pieter



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 12:26   ` Pieter Wuille
  2014-04-07 12:34     ` Mike Hearn

  2014-05-20 18:38     ` Isidor Zeuner
  
From: Jameson Lopp @ 2014-04-07 12:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On 04/07/2014 08:26 AM, Pieter Wuille wrote:
> In my opinion, the number of full nodes doesn't matter (as long as
> it's enough to satisfy demand by other nodes).

I agree, but if we don't quantify "demand" then we are practically blind. What is the plan? To wait until SPV clients start lagging / timing out because their requests cannot be handled by the nodes?

For all I know, the network would run just fine on 100 nodes. But not knowing really irks me as an engineer.

- Jameson



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 12:17 ` Ricardo Filipe

  2014-04-07 14:05     ` Mike Hearn
  
From: Andreas Schildbach @ 2014-04-07 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

They're _not_ phasing out into SPV wallets from what I can say. At
around the 24th of February, there has been a sharp change of the
"current installs" graph of Bitcoin Wallet. That number used to grow at
about 20.000 per month. After that date until now, it just barely moves
horizontal.

My guess is that a large number of users have lost interest after they
lost their money in MtGox. The 24th of February coincides with the
"final" shutdown, according to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox#February_2014_shutdown_and_bankruptcy


On 04/07/2014 02:17 PM, Ricardo Filipe wrote:
> phasing out of bitcoinqt into spv wallets?
> 
> 2014-04-07 12:34 GMT+01:00 Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net>:
>> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
>> still falling:
>>
>>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60
>>
>> I know all the reasons why people might stop running a node (uses too much
>> disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any idea how
>> we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be convenient if
>> the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could tell if the
>> bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which would be
>> expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more concerning.
>>
>> When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
>> file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things you
>> should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit survey:
>> if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the operator and ask
>> why they stopped.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> 




 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
* 
  2014-04-07 11:34 [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes? Mike Hearn
  2014-04-07 12:17 ` Ricardo Filipe

  2014-04-07 12:26   ` Pieter Wuille
  2014-04-07 13:50 ` 
                   ` 
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 70+ messages in thread
From: Jameson Lopp @ 2014-04-07 12:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one concerned about the consistent dropping of nodes. Though I think that the fundamental question should be: how many nodes do we really need? Obviously more is better, but it's difficult to say how concerned we should be without more information. I posted my thoughts last month: http://coinchomp.com/2014/03/19/bitcoin-nodes-many-enough/

I have begun working on my node monitoring project and will post updates if it results in me gaining any new insights about the network.

- Jameson

On 04/07/2014 07:34 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
> still falling:
> 
>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60
> 
> I know all the reasons why people *might* stop running a node (uses too
> much disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any
> idea how we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be
> convenient if the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could
> tell if the bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which
> would be expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more
> concerning.
> 
> When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
> file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things
> you should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit
> survey: if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the
> operator and ask why they stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 



^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 70+ messages in thread
2014-04-07 13:50 ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 13:58     ` Jameson Lopp
  2014-04-08 11:28   ` Jesus Cea
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Dev

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:50 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
> FWIW, A few months before that we had even less than 8500 by the bitnodes count.

Gah, accidentally send.... I wanted to continue here that it was less
than 8500 and had been falling pretty consistently for months,
basically since the bitcoin.org change.  Unfortunately it looks like
the old bitnodes.io data isn't available anymore, so I'm going off my
memory here.

The Bitnodes counts have always been somewhat higher than my or sipa's
node counts too, fwiw.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 13:53   ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 14:04       ` Gregory Maxwell
  
From: Jameson Lopp @ 2014-04-07 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

The Bitnodes project updated their counting algorithm a month or so ago. It used to be slower and less accurate - prior to their update, it was reporting in excess of 100,000 nodes.

- Jameson

On 04/07/2014 09:53 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:50 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
>> FWIW, A few months before that we had even less than 8500 by the bitnodes count.
> 
> Gah, accidentally send.... I wanted to continue here that it was less
> than 8500 and had been falling pretty consistently for months,
> basically since the bitcoin.org change.  Unfortunately it looks like
> the old bitnodes.io data isn't available anymore, so I'm going off my
> memory here.
> 
> The Bitnodes counts have always been somewhat higher than my or sipa's
> node counts too, fwiw.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 13:58     ` Jameson Lopp

  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jameson Lopp;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail•com> wrote:
> The Bitnodes project updated their counting algorithm a month or so ago. It used to be slower and less accurate - prior to their update, it was reporting in excess of 100,000 nodes.

Nah.  It reported multiple metrics. The "100,000" number was an mostly
useless metric that just counted the number of distinct addr messages
floating around the network, which contains a lot of junk.  They also
reported an actual connectable node count previously and while they
may have tweaked things here and there as far as I can tell it has
been consistent with the numbers they are using in the headlines now.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 13:43   ` Andreas Schildbach

  2014-04-07 14:15       ` Eric Martindale
  2014-04-07 14:45       ` Tom Harding
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andreas Schildbach;  Bitcoin Dev

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>
> My guess is that a large number of users have lost interest after they
> lost their money in MtGox. The 24th of February coincides with the
> "final" shutdown


Sigh. It would not be surprising if MtGox has indeed dealt the community a
critical blow in this regard. TX traffic is down since then too:

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=60days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Judging from comments and the leaked user db, it seems a lot of well known
people lost money there   (not me fortunately). I wish I could say people
have learned but from the size of the deposit base at Bitstamp they clearly
have not. A lot of Bitcoin users don't seem to be ready to be their own
bank, yet still want to own some on the assumption everyone else either is
or soon will be. So it's really only a matter of time until something goes
wrong with some large bitbank again, either Bitstamp or Coinbase.

Some days I wonder if Bitcoin will be killed off by people who just refuse
to use it properly before it ever gets a chance to shine. The general
public doesn't distinguish between "Bitcoin users" who deposit with a third
party and the real Bitcoin users who don't.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 14:05     ` Mike Hearn

  2014-04-07 14:23         ` Mike Hearn
                           ` (3 more replies)
  2014-04-07 14:45       ` Tom Harding
  
From: Eric Martindale @ 2014-04-07 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  bitcoin-development, Andreas Schildbach

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We need to make it so mind-numbingly simple to "run Bitcoin correctly" that
the average user doesn't find reasons to do so in the course of normal
use.  Right now, Coinbase and Bitstamp are winning in the user experience
battle, which technically endanger the user, and by proxy the Bitcoin
network.

Multi-sig as a default is a start.  It won't succeed unless the user
experience is simply better than trusted third parties, but we need to
start the education process with the very basic fundamental: trusting a
third-party with full access to your Bitcoin is just replacing one
centralized banking system with another.

Eric Martindale
Developer Evangelist, BitPay
+1 (919) 374-2020
On Apr 7, 2014 7:05 AM, "Mike Hearn" <mike@plan99•net> wrote:

> My guess is that a large number of users have lost interest after they
>> lost their money in MtGox. The 24th of February coincides with the
>> "final" shutdown
>
>
> Sigh. It would not be surprising if MtGox has indeed dealt the community a
> critical blow in this regard. TX traffic is down since then too:
>
>
> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=60days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
>
> Judging from comments and the leaked user db, it seems a lot of well known
> people lost money there   (not me fortunately). I wish I could say people
> have learned but from the size of the deposit base at Bitstamp they clearly
> have not. A lot of Bitcoin users don't seem to be ready to be their own
> bank, yet still want to own some on the assumption everyone else either is
> or soon will be. So it's really only a matter of time until something goes
> wrong with some large bitbank again, either Bitstamp or Coinbase.
>
> Some days I wonder if Bitcoin will be killed off by people who just refuse
> to use it properly before it ever gets a chance to shine. The general
> public doesn't distinguish between "Bitcoin users" who deposit with a third
> party and the real Bitcoin users who don't.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 14:05     ` Mike Hearn

  2014-04-07 14:23         ` 
                           ` 
  2014-04-07 14:45       ` Tom Harding
  
From: Eric Martindale @ 2014-04-07 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  bitcoin-development, Andreas Schildbach

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We need to make it so mind-numbingly simple to "run Bitcoin correctly" that
the average user doesn't find reasons to do so in the course of normal
use.  Right now, Coinbase and Bitstamp are winning in the user experience
battle, which technically endanger the user, and by proxy the Bitcoin
network.

Multi-sig as a default is a start.  It won't succeed unless the user
experience is simply better than trusted third parties, but we need to
start the education process with the very basic fundamental: trusting a
third-party with full access to your Bitcoin is just replacing one
centralized banking system with another.

Eric Martindale
Developer Evangelist, BitPay
+1 (919) 374-2020
On Apr 7, 2014 7:05 AM, "Mike Hearn" <mike@plan99•net> wrote:

> My guess is that a large number of users have lost interest after they
>> lost their money in MtGox. The 24th of February coincides with the
>> "final" shutdown
>
>
> Sigh. It would not be surprising if MtGox has indeed dealt the community a
> critical blow in this regard. TX traffic is down since then too:
>
>
> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=60days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
>
> Judging from comments and the leaked user db, it seems a lot of well known
> people lost money there   (not me fortunately). I wish I could say people
> have learned but from the size of the deposit base at Bitstamp they clearly
> have not. A lot of Bitcoin users don't seem to be ready to be their own
> bank, yet still want to own some on the assumption everyone else either is
> or soon will be. So it's really only a matter of time until something goes
> wrong with some large bitbank again, either Bitstamp or Coinbase.
>
> Some days I wonder if Bitcoin will be killed off by people who just refuse
> to use it properly before it ever gets a chance to shine. The general
> public doesn't distinguish between "Bitcoin users" who deposit with a third
> party and the real Bitcoin users who don't.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 14:05     ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-07 14:15       ` Eric Martindale

  
From: Tom Harding @ 2014-04-07 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On 4/7/2014 7:05 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> Some days I wonder if Bitcoin will be killed off by people who just 
> refuse to use it properly before it ever gets a chance to shine. The 
> general public doesn't distinguish between "Bitcoin users" who deposit 
> with a third party and the real Bitcoin users who don't.
>

A Mt-Gox-scale incident was inevitable and there are probably more hard 
lessons in the future.  But it has made bitcoin much better already.  
I'm referring to things like malleability fixes, cleaning house at the 
foundation, and public education (hard as the lesson was).  A lot more 
people than before understand the distinction you're making, and they 
are sharing the lesson.




 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 11:34 [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes? Mike Hearn
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2014-04-07 13:50 ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 15:53   ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 17:07 ` Drak
  
From: Justus Ranvier @ 2014-04-07 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

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Hash: SHA1

On 04/07/2014 11:34 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500 and
> still falling:
> 
>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60
> 
> I know all the reasons why people *might* stop running a node (uses too
> much disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any
> idea how we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be
> convenient if the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could
> tell if the bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which
> would be expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more
> concerning.

It doesn't do much good to only focus on the immediate symptoms at the
exclusion of big picture trends. There are three things happening now
that have nothing to do with operating systems.

1. The resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond the
capabilities of casual users. This isn't inherently a problem - after
all most people don't grow their own food, tailor their own clothes, or
keep blacksmith tools handy in to forge their own horseshoes either.

2. The growth of small and medium-sized native Bitcoin businesses is
lagging #1. Native here means their revenue and expenses are both
denominated in BTC. Most business adoption we've seen so far doesn't
actually handle bitcoins themselves. They use Bitcoin as a payment
method whose processing they outsource.

Contributing to this is the fact that Bitcoin Core, although it has made
great progress in the 0.9 release, can't be accurately described as
"enterprise ready".

3. The P2P protocol used by the network is broken from an incentive
perspective. Resource usage wouldn't be a problem as long as the users
which consume resources pay for them and the users who provide resources
are compensated, and they communicate via an efficient price discovery
mechanism. Right now there is no obvious way to incorporate price
discovery for bandwidth usage or storage space without a completely new
P2P protocol, and the effectiveness with which progress has been blocked
towards price discovery of transaction fees (the area where it is most
obviously necessary) means that I'm not optimistic that this subject
will ever be effectively addressed by Bitcoin Core.

- -- 
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 15:45 ` Justus Ranvier

  2014-04-07 16:02     ` Jameson Lopp
                       ` (2 more replies)
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Justus Ranvier;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@gmail•com> wrote:
> 1. The resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond the
> capabilities of casual users. This isn't inherently a problem - after
> all most people don't grow their own food, tailor their own clothes, or
> keep blacksmith tools handy in to forge their own horseshoes either.

Right now running a full node consumes about $1 in disk space
non-reoccurring and costs a couple cents in power per month.

This isn't to say things are all ducky. But if you're going to say the
resource requirements are beyond the capabilities of casual users I'm
afraid I'm going to have to say: citation needed.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 15:45 ` Justus Ranvier

  2014-04-07 16:02     ` 
                       ` 
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Justus Ranvier;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@gmail•com> wrote:
> 1. The resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond the
> capabilities of casual users. This isn't inherently a problem - after
> all most people don't grow their own food, tailor their own clothes, or
> keep blacksmith tools handy in to forge their own horseshoes either.

Right now running a full node consumes about $1 in disk space
non-reoccurring and costs a couple cents in power per month.

This isn't to say things are all ducky. But if you're going to say the
resource requirements are beyond the capabilities of casual users I'm
afraid I'm going to have to say: citation needed.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 15:53   ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 16:02     ` Jameson Lopp

  2014-04-07 16:57       ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 17:39     ` Chris Williams
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-07 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

Right now running a full-node on my home DSL connection (<1Mbps) makes
other internet activity periodically unresponsive. I think we've already
hit a point where resource requirements are pushing out casual users,
although of course we can't be certain that accounts for all lost nodes.

On 04/07/2014 08:53 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@gmail•com> wrote:
>> 1. The resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond the
>> capabilities of casual users. This isn't inherently a problem - after
>> all most people don't grow their own food, tailor their own clothes, or
>> keep blacksmith tools handy in to forge their own horseshoes either.
> 
> Right now running a full node consumes about $1 in disk space
> non-reoccurring and costs a couple cents in power per month.
> 
> This isn't to say things are all ducky. But if you're going to say the
> resource requirements are beyond the capabilities of casual users I'm
> afraid I'm going to have to say: citation needed.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> .
> 



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 16:27     ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-07 17:01         ` Mark Friedenbach
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 9:27 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
> Right now running a full-node on my home DSL connection (<1Mbps) makes
> other internet activity periodically unresponsive. I think we've already
> hit a point where resource requirements are pushing out casual users,
> although of course we can't be certain that accounts for all lost nodes.

That is an implementation issue— mostly one that arises as an indirect
consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
requirements issue.

Under the current bitcoin validity rules it should be completely
reasonable to run a full contributing node with no more than 30 kb/s
inbound (reviving two copies of everything, blocks + tansactions ) and
60 kbit/sec outbound (sending out four copies of everything). (So long
as you're sending out >= what you're taking in you're contributing to
the network's capacity). Throw in a factor of two for bursting, though
not every node needs to be contributing super low latency capacity.

This is absolutely not the case with the current implementation, but
it's not a requirements thing.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 16:57       ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 17:16           ` Gregory Maxwell
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-07 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development

On 04/07/2014 09:57 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> That is an implementation issue— mostly one that arises as an indirect
> consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
> requirements issue.

Oh, absolutely. But the question "why are people not running full
nodes?" has to do with the current implementation, not abstract
capabilities of a future version of the bitcoind code base.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 11:34 [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes? Mike Hearn
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2014-04-07 15:45 ` Justus Ranvier

  2014-05-20  8:15   ` bitcoingrant
  
From: Drak @ 2014-04-07 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1766 bytes --]

For what it's worth, the number of nodes rose dramatically during the China
bullrun (I recall 45k in China alone) and dropped as dramatically as the
price after the first PBOC announcement designed to cool down bitcoin
trading in China.


On 7 April 2014 12:34, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:

> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500
> and still falling:
>
>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60
>
> I know all the reasons why people *might* stop running a node (uses too
> much disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any
> idea how we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be
> convenient if the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could
> tell if the bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which
> would be expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more
> concerning.
>
> When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
> file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things
> you should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit
> survey: if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the
> operator and ask why they stopped.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:01         ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-07 17:35             ` Brent Shambaugh
  2014-04-07 17:46             ` Justus Ranvier
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
> On 04/07/2014 09:57 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>> That is an implementation issue— mostly one that arises as an indirect
>> consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
>> requirements issue.
>
> Oh, absolutely. But the question "why are people not running full
> nodes?" has to do with the current implementation, not abstract
> capabilities of a future version of the bitcoind code base.

The distinction is very important because it's a matter of things we
can and should fix vs things that cannot be fixed except by changing
goals/incentives!  Opposite approaches to handling them.

When I read "resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond" I
didn't extract from that that "there are implementation issues that
need to be improved to make it work better for low resource users" due
to the word "requirements".



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:16           ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 17:40               ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-07 17:46             ` Justus Ranvier
  
From: Brent Shambaugh @ 2014-04-07 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1704 bytes --]

How difficult would it be to set up a node? Using lots of electricity at
home (if required) could be an issue, but I do have a Webfaction account.


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io>
> wrote:
> > On 04/07/2014 09:57 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> >> That is an implementation issue-- mostly one that arises as an indirect
> >> consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
> >> requirements issue.
> >
> > Oh, absolutely. But the question "why are people not running full
> > nodes?" has to do with the current implementation, not abstract
> > capabilities of a future version of the bitcoind code base.
>
> The distinction is very important because it's a matter of things we
> can and should fix vs things that cannot be fixed except by changing
> goals/incentives!  Opposite approaches to handling them.
>
> When I read "resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond" I
> didn't extract from that that "there are implementation issues that
> need to be improved to make it work better for low resource users" due
> to the word "requirements".
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 15:53   ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 16:02     ` Jameson Lopp
  2014-04-07 16:27     ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-07 18:23       ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-08 17:18       ` Andrew LeCody
  
From: Chris Williams @ 2014-04-07 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1843 bytes --]

I’m afraid this is a highly simplistic view of the costs of running a full node.

My node consumes fantastic amounts of data traffic, which is a real cost.

In the 30 days ending Apri 6, my node:

* Received 36.8 gb of data
* Sent 456.5 gb data

At my geographic service location (Singapore), this cost about $90 last month for bandwidth alone. It would be slightly cheaper if I was hosted in the US of course.

But anyone can understand that moving a half-terrabyte of data around in a month will not be cheap.


On Apr 7, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@gmail•com> wrote:
>> 1. The resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond the
>> capabilities of casual users. This isn't inherently a problem - after
>> all most people don't grow their own food, tailor their own clothes, or
>> keep blacksmith tools handy in to forge their own horseshoes either.
> 
> Right now running a full node consumes about $1 in disk space
> non-reoccurring and costs a couple cents in power per month.
> 
> This isn't to say things are all ducky. But if you're going to say the
> resource requirements are beyond the capabilities of casual users I'm
> afraid I'm going to have to say: citation needed.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:35             ` Brent Shambaugh

  2014-04-07 17:44                 ` Gregory Maxwell
                                   ` (3 more replies)
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Brent Shambaugh;  Bitcoin Development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2863 bytes --]

It uses ~no electricity, it's not like mining.

The primary resources it needs are disk space and bandwidth, after an
intensive initial day or two of building the database.

Actually, I wonder if we should start shipping (auditable) pre-baked
databases calculated up to the last checkpoint so people can download them
and boot up their node right away. Recalculating the entire thing from
scratch every time isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Brent Shambaugh
<brent.shambaugh@gmail•com>wrote:

> How difficult would it be to set up a node? Using lots of electricity at
> home (if required) could be an issue, but I do have a Webfaction account.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io>
>> wrote:
>> > On 04/07/2014 09:57 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>> >> That is an implementation issue— mostly one that arises as an indirect
>> >> consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
>> >> requirements issue.
>> >
>> > Oh, absolutely. But the question "why are people not running full
>> > nodes?" has to do with the current implementation, not abstract
>> > capabilities of a future version of the bitcoind code base.
>>
>> The distinction is very important because it's a matter of things we
>> can and should fix vs things that cannot be fixed except by changing
>> goals/incentives!  Opposite approaches to handling them.
>>
>> When I read "resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond" I
>> didn't extract from that that "there are implementation issues that
>> need to be improved to make it work better for low resource users" due
>> to the word "requirements".
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:35             ` Brent Shambaugh

  2014-04-07 17:44                 ` 
                                   ` 
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Brent Shambaugh;  Bitcoin Development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2863 bytes --]

It uses ~no electricity, it's not like mining.

The primary resources it needs are disk space and bandwidth, after an
intensive initial day or two of building the database.

Actually, I wonder if we should start shipping (auditable) pre-baked
databases calculated up to the last checkpoint so people can download them
and boot up their node right away. Recalculating the entire thing from
scratch every time isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Brent Shambaugh
<brent.shambaugh@gmail•com>wrote:

> How difficult would it be to set up a node? Using lots of electricity at
> home (if required) could be an issue, but I do have a Webfaction account.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io>
>> wrote:
>> > On 04/07/2014 09:57 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>> >> That is an implementation issue— mostly one that arises as an indirect
>> >> consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
>> >> requirements issue.
>> >
>> > Oh, absolutely. But the question "why are people not running full
>> > nodes?" has to do with the current implementation, not abstract
>> > capabilities of a future version of the bitcoind code base.
>>
>> The distinction is very important because it's a matter of things we
>> can and should fix vs things that cannot be fixed except by changing
>> goals/incentives!  Opposite approaches to handling them.
>>
>> When I read "resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond" I
>> didn't extract from that that "there are implementation issues that
>> need to be improved to make it work better for low resource users" due
>> to the word "requirements".
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
* 
  2014-04-07 17:40               ` Mike Hearn

  2014-04-07 17:45                 ` 
                                   ` 
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 70+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
> Actually, I wonder

The actual validation isn't really the problem today. The slowness of
the IBD is almost exclusively the lack of parallel fetching and the
existence of slow peers.  And making the signature gate adaptive (and
deploying the 6x faster ECDSA code) would improve that future.

Go grab sipa's headers first branch, it has no problem saturating a
20mbit/sec pipe syncing up.



^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 70+ messages in thread
2014-04-07 17:16           ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 17:35             ` Brent Shambaugh

  
From: Justus Ranvier @ 2014-04-07 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1449 bytes --]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/07/2014 05:16 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> When I read "resource requirements of a full node are moving
> beyond" I didn't extract from that that "there are implementation
> issues that need to be improved to make it work better for low
> resource users" due to the word "requirements".

In order to prevent future confusion: whenever I talk about
requirements (or generally use the present tense) , I'm talking about
reality as it currently exists.

If I ever decide to talk about hypothetical future requirements in
some imaginary world of Platonic forms, as opposed to the requirements
imposed by the software that's actually available for casual users to
download today, I'll mention that specifically.

- -- 
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:40               ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-07 17:44                 ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 17:45                 ` Tamas Blummer

  2014-04-07 18:30                   ` Arne Brutschy
  2014-04-07 17:56                 ` Brent Shambaugh
  
From: Justus Ranvier @ 2014-04-07 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1233 bytes --]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/07/2014 05:40 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> The primary resources it needs are disk space and bandwidth, after
> an intensive initial day or two of building the database.

Check out the kind of hardware causal users are running these days.

The bottleneck is not bulk disk space, but rather IOPS.

Most users don't have spare machines to dedicate to the task of
running a full node, nor is it acceptable for them to not be able to
use their device for other tasks while the node is bootstrapping.

- -- 
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:40               ` Mike Hearn
                                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2014-04-07 17:50                 ` Justus Ranvier

  
From: Brent Shambaugh @ 2014-04-07 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3149 bytes --]

Okay awesome. It seems like I set up a Litecoin node without knowing it
(because it was like this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128122.0) I was able to bootstrap
it (https://litecoin.info/).


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:

> It uses ~no electricity, it's not like mining.
>
> The primary resources it needs are disk space and bandwidth, after an
> intensive initial day or two of building the database.
>
> Actually, I wonder if we should start shipping (auditable) pre-baked
> databases calculated up to the last checkpoint so people can download them
> and boot up their node right away. Recalculating the entire thing from
> scratch every time isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Brent Shambaugh <brent.shambaugh@gmail•com
> > wrote:
>
>> How difficult would it be to set up a node? Using lots of electricity at
>> home (if required) could be an issue, but I do have a Webfaction account.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com>wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io>
>>> wrote:
>>> > On 04/07/2014 09:57 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>> >> That is an implementation issue-- mostly one that arises as an indirect
>>> >> consequence of not having headers first and the parallel fetch, not a
>>> >> requirements issue.
>>> >
>>> > Oh, absolutely. But the question "why are people not running full
>>> > nodes?" has to do with the current implementation, not abstract
>>> > capabilities of a future version of the bitcoind code base.
>>>
>>> The distinction is very important because it's a matter of things we
>>> can and should fix vs things that cannot be fixed except by changing
>>> goals/incentives!  Opposite approaches to handling them.
>>>
>>> When I read "resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond" I
>>> didn't extract from that that "there are implementation issues that
>>> need to be improved to make it work better for low resource users" due
>>> to the word "requirements".
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>

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2014-04-07 17:39     ` Chris Williams

  2014-04-07 18:35         ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-08 17:18       ` Andrew LeCody
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chris Williams;  Bitcoin Development

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>
> * Sent 456.5 gb data
>
> At my geographic service location (Singapore), this cost about $90 last
> month for bandwidth alone.


One of the reasons I initiated the (now stalled) PayFile project was in
anticipation of this problem:

https://github.com/mikehearn/PayFile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0BXnWlnIi4&feature=youtu.be

At some point if you want to actually download and validate the full block
chain from scratch, you will have to start paying for it I'm sure.

In the meantime:

   1. Getting headers-first implemented and rolled out everywhere would
   reduce the amount of redundant downloading and hopefully reduce transmit
   traffic network-wide.
   2. Implementing chain pruning would allow people to control upload
   bandwidth consumption by reducing the amount of disk storage they allow.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:50                 ` Justus Ranvier

  
From: Arne Brutschy @ 2014-04-07 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Justus Ranvier, Bitcoin Dev


> The bottleneck is not bulk disk space, but rather IOPS.

Exactly. I stopped running a full node on both of my desktops machines
in the last month. Both systems were simply becoming very noticeable
(=unbearably) sluggish. I am also running dedicated nodes, which are
fine, but on a desktop latency is a major issue (or, let's say,  a
different issue than on a server).

I didn't notice any network latency, but that's hard to judge as our
internet is pants anyway.

Arne

PS: my machines aren't the newest, but still do a stellar job (without
bitcoind running ;)



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 18:23       ` Mike Hearn

  2014-04-07 18:49           ` Gregory Maxwell
  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-07 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Development


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Headers first loading allows the node to run SPV from the very first minutes and it can converge to full node by time.
This is BTW how newest versions of BOP can work.

Pruning however disqualifies the node as a source for bootstrapping an other full node. 
BTW, did we already agree on the service bits for an archive node?


Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 20:23, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:

> * Sent 456.5 gb data
> 
> At my geographic service location (Singapore), this cost about $90 last month for bandwidth alone.
> 
> One of the reasons I initiated the (now stalled) PayFile project was in anticipation of this problem:
> 
> https://github.com/mikehearn/PayFile
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0BXnWlnIi4&feature=youtu.be
> 
> At some point if you want to actually download and validate the full block chain from scratch, you will have to start paying for it I'm sure.
> 
> In the meantime:
> Getting headers-first implemented and rolled out everywhere would reduce the amount of redundant downloading and hopefully reduce transmit traffic network-wide.
> Implementing chain pruning would allow people to control upload bandwidth consumption by reducing the amount of disk storage they allow.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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2014-04-07 19:00             ` Tamas Blummer

  2014-04-07 19:02               ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 19:03               ` Gregory Maxwell
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-07 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On 04/07/2014 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
> Once a single transaction in pruned in a block, the block is no longer
> eligible to be served to other nodes. 
> Which transactions are pruned can be rather custom e.g. even depending
> on the wallet(s) of the node,
> therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
> blocks than ranges.

The point is that the node has decided not to prune transactions from
that block, so that it is capable of returning full blocks within that
range.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 18:35         ` Tamas Blummer

  2014-04-07 19:00             ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-08  3:44             ` Jeff Garzik
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tamas Blummer;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
> BTW, did we already agree on the service bits for an archive node?

I'm still very concerned that a binary archive bit will cause extreme
load hot-spotting and the kind of binary "Use lots of resources YES or
NO" I think we're currently suffering some from, but at that point
enshrined in the protocol.

It would be much better to extend the addr messages so that nodes can
indicate a range or two of blocks that they're serving, so that all
nodes can contribute fractionally according to their means. E.g. if
you want to offer up 8 GB of distributed storage and contribute to the
availability of the blockchain,  without having to swollow the whole
20, 30, 40 ... gigabyte pill.

Already we need that kind of distributed storage for the most recent
blocks to prevent extreme bandwidth load on archives, so extending it
to arbitrary ranges is only more complicated because there is
currently no room to signal it.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 18:49           ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 18:48               ` Mark Friedenbach
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  2014-04-08  3:44             ` Jeff Garzik
  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-07 19:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1477 bytes --]

Once a single transaction in pruned in a block, the block is no longer eligible to be served to other nodes. 
Which transactions are pruned can be rather custom e.g. even depending on the wallet(s) of the node,
therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full blocks than ranges.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 20:49, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>> BTW, did we already agree on the service bits for an archive node?
> 
> I'm still very concerned that a binary archive bit will cause extreme
> load hot-spotting and the kind of binary "Use lots of resources YES or
> NO" I think we're currently suffering some from, but at that point
> enshrined in the protocol.
> 
> It would be much better to extend the addr messages so that nodes can
> indicate a range or two of blocks that they're serving, so that all
> nodes can contribute fractionally according to their means. E.g. if
> you want to offer up 8 GB of distributed storage and contribute to the
> availability of the blockchain,  without having to swollow the whole
> 20, 30, 40 ... gigabyte pill.
> 
> Already we need that kind of distributed storage for the most recent
> blocks to prevent extreme bandwidth load on archives, so extending it
> to arbitrary ranges is only more complicated because there is
> currently no room to signal it.
> 


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2014-04-07 19:00             ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-07 18:48               ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-07 19:05                 ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-07 19:03               ` Gregory Maxwell
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tamas Blummer;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
> Once a single transaction in pruned in a block, the block is no longer
> eligible to be served to other nodes.
> Which transactions are pruned can be rather custom e.g. even depending on
> the wallet(s) of the node,
> therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
> blocks than ranges.

This isn't at all how pruning works in Bitcoin-QT  (nor is it how I
expect pruning to work for any mature implementation). Pruning can
work happily on a whole block at a time basis regardless if all the
transactions in it are spent or not.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:00             ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-07 18:48               ` Mark Friedenbach
  2014-04-07 19:02               ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 19:13                 ` Tier Nolan
  2014-04-07 19:20                 ` Tamas Blummer
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tamas Blummer;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
> therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
> blocks than ranges.

A bitmap also means high overhead and— if it's used to advertise
non-contiguous blocks— poor locality, since blocks are fetched
sequentially.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:02               ` Gregory Maxwell

  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-07 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development


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Maybe it is not a question of the maturity of the implementation but that of the person making presumptions of it.

I consider a fully pruned blockchain being equivalent to the UTXO. Block that hold no
more unspent transaction are reduced to a header. There is however no harm if more retained.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 21:02, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>> Once a single transaction in pruned in a block, the block is no longer
>> eligible to be served to other nodes.
>> Which transactions are pruned can be rather custom e.g. even depending on
>> the wallet(s) of the node,
>> therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
>> blocks than ranges.
> 
> This isn't at all how pruning works in Bitcoin-QT  (nor is it how I
> expect pruning to work for any mature implementation). Pruning can
> work happily on a whole block at a time basis regardless if all the
> transactions in it are spent or not.
> 


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2014-04-07 19:03               ` Gregory Maxwell

  2014-04-07 19:20                 ` Tamas Blummer
  
From: Tier Nolan @ 2014-04-07 19:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Development

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On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

> A bitmap also means high overhead and-- if it's used to advertise
> non-contiguous blocks-- poor locality, since blocks are fetched
> sequentially.
>

A range seems like a great compromise.  Putting it in the address is also a
pretty cool.

If light nodes selected a random contiguous 1GB of the block-chain, then
they could handle most of the download overhead, rather than the full nodes.

Another way to do it would be to have something like a routing table.  If a
node is queried for a block, it can reply with the IP of a node with that
block instead of sending the block.

One problem is that it means that light nodes have to accept incoming
connections.  Otherwise, it would have to be routed through the network.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:20                 ` Tamas Blummer

  2014-04-07 19:36                     ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-07 21:46                     ` Ricardo Filipe
  2014-04-07 19:30                   ` Paul Lyon
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-07 19:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development



On 04/07/2014 12:20 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
> Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the
> blocks before a point are loaded and continous.

And how do you find those blocks?

I have a suggestion: have nodes advertise which range of full blocks
they possess, then you can perform synchronization from the adversed ranges!



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:03               ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 19:13                 ` Tier Nolan

  2014-04-07 19:13                   ` Mark Friedenbach
  2014-04-07 19:30                   ` Paul Lyon
  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-07 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 658 bytes --]


Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading. 

Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the blocks before a point are loaded and continous.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>> therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
>> blocks than ranges.
> 
> A bitmap also means high overhead and— if it's used to advertise
> non-contiguous blocks— poor locality, since blocks are fetched
> sequentially.
> 


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2014-04-07 19:20                 ` Tamas Blummer
  2014-04-07 19:13                   ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-07 19:50                     ` Tamas Blummer
  
From: Paul Lyon @ 2014-04-07 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tamas Blummer, Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development

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I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, apologies if so, but that's the approach I've taken with the node I'm working on.
Headers can be downloaded and stored in any order, it'll make sense of what the winning chain is. Blocks don't need to be downloaded in any particular order and they don't need to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully self-contained. That way the concern of storing blocks for seeding (or not) is wholly separated from syncing the UTXO. This allows me to do the initial blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I use my SSD. I only need enough disk space to store the UTXO, and then whatever amount of block data the user would want to store for the health of the network.
This project is a bitcoin learning exercise for me, so I can only hope I don't have any critical design flaws in there. :)

From: tamas@bitsofproof•com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200
To: gmaxwell@gmail•com
CC: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?


Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading. 
Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the blocks before a point are loaded and continous.
Tamas Blummerhttp://bitsofproof.com


On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
blocks than ranges.

A bitmap also means high overhead and— if it's used to advertise
non-contiguous blocks— poor locality, since blocks are fetched
sequentially.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put Bad Developers to Shame
Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
_______________________________________________
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Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development 		 	   		  

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:13                   ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-07 21:46                     ` Ricardo Filipe
  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-07 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  bitcoin-development


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1359 bytes --]

You have the trunk defined by the headers. Once a range from genesis to block n is fully downloaded,
you may validate upto block n. Furthermore after validation you can prune transactions spent until block n.

You would approach the highest block with validation and stop pruning say 100 blocks before it, to leave room for reorgs.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 21:13, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:

> 
> 
> On 04/07/2014 12:20 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>> Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the
>> blocks before a point are loaded and continous.
> 
> And how do you find those blocks?
> 
> I have a suggestion: have nodes advertise which range of full blocks
> they possess, then you can perform synchronization from the adversed ranges!
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment 
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 


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* 
  2014-04-07 14:15       ` Eric Martindale

  2014-04-07 19:46         ` 
                           ` 
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 70+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-07 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eric Martindale;  Bitcoin Dev, Andreas Schildbach

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3193 bytes --]

Indeed, fully agreed. The only way to really make progress here is to make
the UX of being your own bank not only as good as trusting a third party,
but better.

I've been encouraged by the rise of risk analysis services, but we need to
integrate them into wallets more widely for them to have much impact.
Otherwise people get to pick between a variety of wallets, none of which
have *all* the features they want. And TREZOR is cool, albeit, something
that's going to be for committed users only.



On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Eric Martindale <eric@ericmartindale•com>wrote:

> We need to make it so mind-numbingly simple to "run Bitcoin correctly"
> that the average user doesn't find reasons to do so in the course of normal
> use.  Right now, Coinbase and Bitstamp are winning in the user experience
> battle, which technically endanger the user, and by proxy the Bitcoin
> network.
>
> Multi-sig as a default is a start.  It won't succeed unless the user
> experience is simply better than trusted third parties, but we need to
> start the education process with the very basic fundamental: trusting a
> third-party with full access to your Bitcoin is just replacing one
> centralized banking system with another.
>
> Eric Martindale
> Developer Evangelist, BitPay
> +1 (919) 374-2020
> On Apr 7, 2014 7:05 AM, "Mike Hearn" <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
>
>>  My guess is that a large number of users have lost interest after they
>>> lost their money in MtGox. The 24th of February coincides with the
>>> "final" shutdown
>>
>>
>> Sigh. It would not be surprising if MtGox has indeed dealt the community
>> a critical blow in this regard. TX traffic is down since then too:
>>
>>
>> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=60days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
>>
>> Judging from comments and the leaked user db, it seems a lot of well
>> known people lost money there   (not me fortunately). I wish I could say
>> people have learned but from the size of the deposit base at Bitstamp they
>> clearly have not. A lot of Bitcoin users don't seem to be ready to be their
>> own bank, yet still want to own some on the assumption everyone else either
>> is or soon will be. So it's really only a matter of time until something
>> goes wrong with some large bitbank again, either Bitstamp or Coinbase.
>>
>> Some days I wonder if Bitcoin will be killed off by people who just
>> refuse to use it properly before it ever gets a chance to shine. The
>> general public doesn't distinguish between "Bitcoin users" who deposit with
>> a third party and the real Bitcoin users who don't.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>

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^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 70+ messages in thread
2014-04-07 19:30                   ` Paul Lyon

  2014-04-07 21:48                       ` Tier Nolan
  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-07 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Paul Lyon;  Bitcoin Development


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2647 bytes --]

You have to load headers sequantially to be able to connect them and determine the longest chain.

Blocks can be loaded in random order once you have their order given by the headers.
Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store the blocks unless you have plenty of RAM. 

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 21:30, Paul Lyon <pmlyon@hotmail•ca> wrote:

> I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, apologies if so, but that's the approach I've taken with the node I'm working on.
> 
> Headers can be downloaded and stored in any order, it'll make sense of what the winning chain is. Blocks don't need to be downloaded in any particular order and they don't need to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully self-contained. That way the concern of storing blocks for seeding (or not) is wholly separated from syncing the UTXO. This allows me to do the initial blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I use my SSD. I only need enough disk space to store the UTXO, and then whatever amount of block data the user would want to store for the health of the network.
> 
> This project is a bitcoin learning exercise for me, so I can only hope I don't have any critical design flaws in there. :)
> 
> From: tamas@bitsofproof•com
> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200
> To: gmaxwell@gmail•com
> CC: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?
> 
> 
> Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading. 
> 
> Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the blocks before a point are loaded and continous.
> 
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com
> 
> On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>>> therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
>>> blocks than ranges.
>> 
>> A bitmap also means high overhead and— if it's used to advertise
>> non-contiguous blocks— poor locality, since blocks are fetched
>> sequentially.
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Put Bad Developers to Shame Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:13                   ` Mark Friedenbach
  2014-04-07 19:36                     ` Tamas Blummer

  
From: Ricardo Filipe @ 2014-04-07 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  Bitcoin Dev

Or have blocks distributed through pruned nodes as a DHT.

2014-04-07 20:13 GMT+01:00 Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io>:
>
>
> On 04/07/2014 12:20 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>> Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the
>> blocks before a point are loaded and continous.
>
> And how do you find those blocks?
>
> I have a suggestion: have nodes advertise which range of full blocks
> they possess, then you can perform synchronization from the adversed ranges!
>
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 19:50                     ` Tamas Blummer

  2014-04-07 21:56                         ` Gregory Maxwell
  
From: Tier Nolan @ 2014-04-07 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Development

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On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:

> You have to load headers sequantially to be able to connect them and
> determine the longest chain.
>

The isn't strictly true.  If you are connected to a some honest nodes, then
you could download portions of the chain and then connect the various
sub-chains together.

The protocol doesn't support it though.  There is no system to ask for
block headers for the main chain block with a given height,

Finding one high bandwidth peer to download the entire header chain
sequentially is pretty much forced.  The client can switch if there is a
timeout.

Other peers could be used to parallel download the block chain while the
main chain is downloading.  Even if the header download stalled, it
wouldn't be that big a deal.

> Blocks can be loaded in random order once you have their order given by
the headers.
> Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store
the blocks unless you have plenty of RAM.

You only need to store the UTXO set, rather than the entire block chain.

It is possible to generate the UTXO set without doing any signature
verification.

A lightweight node could just verify the UTXO set and then do random
signature verifications.

The keeps disk space and CPU reasonably low.  If an illegal transaction is
added to be a block, then proof could be provided for the bad transaction.

The only slightly difficult thing is confirming inflation.  That can be
checked on a block by block basis when downloading the entire block chain.

> Regards,
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com <http://bitsofproof.com>

On 07.04.2014, at 21:30, Paul Lyon <pmlyon@hotmail•ca> wrote:

I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, apologies if so, but that's the
approach I've taken with the node I'm working on.

Headers can be downloaded and stored in any order, it'll make sense of what
the winning chain is. Blocks don't need to be downloaded in any particular
order and they don't need to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully
self-contained. That way the concern of storing blocks for seeding (or not)
is wholly separated from syncing the UTXO. This allows me to do the initial
blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I use my SSD. I only need enough disk
space to store the UTXO, and then whatever amount of block data the user
would want to store for the health of the network.

This project is a bitcoin learning exercise for me, so I can only hope I
don't have any critical design flaws in there. :)

------------------------------
From: tamas@bitsofproof•com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200
To: gmaxwell@gmail•com
CC: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?


Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading.

Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the
blocks before a point are loaded and continous.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com>
wrote:

therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
blocks than ranges.


A bitmap also means high overhead and-- if it's used to advertise
non-contiguous blocks-- poor locality, since blocks are fetched
sequentially.



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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 22:14 ` Tier Nolan
  
From: Paul Lyon @ 2014-04-07 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tier Nolan, bitcoin-development


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5250 bytes --]

I actually ask for headers from each peer I’m connected to and then dump them into the backend to be sorted out.. is this abusive to the network? I’m concerned about that as I work on this, it only dawned on me the other night that I really shouldn’t use the seed peers for downloading…


I figured with the headers being so tiny, it wouldn’t be a burden to ask for them from each peer. I won’t actually end up downloading the full blockchain’s worth of headers from every peer; I’m continually getting an updated view of the current winning chain before I send out additional header requests to peers.






From: Tier Nolan
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎April‎ ‎07‎, ‎2014 ‎6‎:‎48‎ ‎PM
To: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net








On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:


You have to load headers sequantially to be able to connect them and determine the longest chain.




The isn't strictly true.  If you are connected to a some honest nodes, then you could download portions of the chain and then connect the various sub-chains together.

The protocol doesn't support it though.  There is no system to ask for block headers for the main chain block with a given height,


Finding one high bandwidth peer to download the entire header chain sequentially is pretty much forced.  The client can switch if there is a timeout.


Other peers could be used to parallel download the block chain while the main chain is downloading.  Even if the header download stalled, it wouldn't be that big a deal.






> Blocks can be loaded in random order once you have their order given by the headers.
> Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store the blocks unless you have plenty of RAM. 


You only need to store the UTXO set, rather than the entire block chain.



It is possible to generate the UTXO set without doing any signature verification.



A lightweight node could just verify the UTXO set and then do random signature verifications.



The keeps disk space and CPU reasonably low.  If an illegal transaction is added to be a block, then proof could be provided for the bad transaction.



The only slightly difficult thing is confirming inflation.  That can be checked on a block by block basis when downloading the entire block chain.




> Regards,
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com 




On 07.04.2014, at 21:30, Paul Lyon <pmlyon@hotmail•ca> wrote:





I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, apologies if so, but that's the approach I've taken with the node I'm working on.



Headers can be downloaded and stored in any order, it'll make sense of what the winning chain is. Blocks don't need to be downloaded in any particular order and they don't need to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully self-contained. That way the concern of storing blocks for seeding (or not) is wholly separated from syncing the UTXO. This allows me to do the initial blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I use my SSD. I only need enough disk space to store the UTXO, and then whatever amount of block data the user would want to store for the health of the network.





This project is a bitcoin learning exercise for me, so I can only hope I don't have any critical design flaws in there. :)






From: tamas@bitsofproof•com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200
To: gmaxwell@gmail•com
CC: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?





Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading. 




Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the blocks before a point are loaded and continous.


Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com



On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:

therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
blocks than ranges.


A bitmap also means high overhead and— if it's used to advertise
non-contiguous blocks— poor locality, since blocks are fetched
sequentially.



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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 21:48                       ` Tier Nolan

  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-07 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tier Nolan;  Bitcoin Development

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Tier Nolan <tier.nolan@gmail•com> wrote:
>> Blocks can be loaded in random order once you have their order given by
>> the headers.
>> Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store
>> the blocks unless you have plenty of RAM.
> You only need to store the UTXO set, rather than the entire block chain.

The comment was specifically in the context of an out of order fetch.
Verification must be in order. If you have fetched blocks out of order
you must preserve them at least long enough to reorder them. Thats
all.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 21:55 Paul Lyon

  
From: Tier Nolan @ 2014-04-07 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5363 bytes --]

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Paul Lyon <pmlyon@hotmail•ca> wrote:

>  I actually ask for headers from each peer I'm connected to and then dump
> them into the backend to be sorted out.. is this abusive to the network?
>

I think downloading from a subset of the peers and switching out any slow
ones is a reasonable compromise.

Once you have a chain, you can quickly check that all peers have the same
main chain.

Your backend system could have a method that gives you the hash of the last
10 headers on the longest chain it knows about.  You can use the block
locator hash system.

This can be used with the getheaders message and if the new peer is on a
different chain, then it will just send you the headers starting at the
genesis block.

If that happens, you need to download the entire chain from that peer and
see if it is better than your current best.


*From:* Tier Nolan <tier.nolan@gmail•com>
*Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2014 6:48 PM
*To:* bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:

> You have to load headers sequantially to be able to connect them and
> determine the longest chain.
>

The isn't strictly true.  If you are connected to a some honest nodes, then
you could download portions of the chain and then connect the various
sub-chains together.

The protocol doesn't support it though.  There is no system to ask for
block headers for the main chain block with a given height,

Finding one high bandwidth peer to download the entire header chain
sequentially is pretty much forced.  The client can switch if there is a
timeout.

Other peers could be used to parallel download the block chain while the
main chain is downloading.  Even if the header download stalled, it
wouldn't be that big a deal.

> Blocks can be loaded in random order once you have their order given by
the headers.
> Computing the UTXO however will force you to at least temporarily store
the blocks unless you have plenty of RAM.

You only need to store the UTXO set, rather than the entire block chain.

It is possible to generate the UTXO set without doing any signature
verification.

A lightweight node could just verify the UTXO set and then do random
signature verifications.

The keeps disk space and CPU reasonably low.  If an illegal transaction is
added to be a block, then proof could be provided for the bad transaction.

The only slightly difficult thing is confirming inflation.  That can be
checked on a block by block basis when downloading the entire block chain.

> Regards,
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com <http://bitsofproof.com>

On 07.04.2014, at 21:30, Paul Lyon <pmlyon@hotmail•ca> wrote:

I hope I'm not thread-jacking here, apologies if so, but that's the
approach I've taken with the node I'm working on.

Headers can be downloaded and stored in any order, it'll make sense of what
the winning chain is. Blocks don't need to be downloaded in any particular
order and they don't need to be saved to disk, the UTXO is fully
self-contained. That way the concern of storing blocks for seeding (or not)
is wholly separated from syncing the UTXO. This allows me to do the initial
blockchain sync in ~6 hours when I use my SSD. I only need enough disk
space to store the UTXO, and then whatever amount of block data the user
would want to store for the health of the network.

This project is a bitcoin learning exercise for me, so I can only hope I
don't have any critical design flaws in there. :)

------------------------------
From: tamas@bitsofproof•com
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:20:31 +0200
To: gmaxwell@gmail•com
CC: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?


Once headers are loaded first there is no reason for sequential loading.

Validation has to be sequantial, but that step can be deferred until the
blocks before a point are loaded and continous.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 07.04.2014, at 21:03, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com>
wrote:

therefore I guess it is more handy to return some bitmap of pruned/full
blocks than ranges.


A bitmap also means high overhead and-- if it's used to advertise
non-contiguous blocks-- poor locality, since blocks are fetched
sequentially.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Integration Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment Start a new
project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees

_______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
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[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 11988 bytes --]

 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 14:15       ` Eric Martindale
  2014-04-07 14:23         ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-07 19:46         ` Troy Benjegerdes

  2014-04-08  7:50           ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-09 10:38         ` Wendell
  
From: kjj @ 2014-04-08  3:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eric Martindale;  bitcoin-development

Multi-sig requires infrastructure.  It isn't a magic wand that we can 
wave to make everyone secure.  The protocols and techniques necessary 
don't exist yet, and apparently no one has much of an incentive to 
create them.

I mean no offense, and I don't mean to pick on you.  Your post stuck out 
while I was reading.  Secure multi-sig is what we all want, but wanting 
apparently isn't enough to make it happen.

Other random notes from reading this 50+ post thread:

Perhaps we should have a config flag to prevent a node from serving IBD 
to new nodes.  IBD crushes marginal machines, particularly those with 
spinning disks.  This has been extensively discussed elsewhere.

The ideal IBD hosts are serving the blockchain out of a RAM disk. Is 
there any interest in setting up a network of volunteers to host 
expensive servers with fast connections?  It doesn't look too terribly 
difficult to figure out when a node has stopped asking for blocks in 
bulk, so we could add another config flag to eject nodes once they are 
done booting.

Even ignoring IBD, I think that we are gradually outgrowing cheapass 
hosting options.  Personally, I long ago gave up on answering forum 
questions about running nodes on virtual servers and VPSs.  It is 
certainly still possible to run bitcoind on small boxes, but it isn't 
trivial any more.  (Anyone running on less than my Athlon XP 1800+ with 
896 MB RAM?)  If we want those nodes back, we need to optimize the hell 
out of the memory use, and even that might not be enough.


Eric Martindale wrote:
>
> We need to make it so mind-numbingly simple to "run Bitcoin correctly" 
> that the average user doesn't find reasons to do so in the course of 
> normal use.  Right now, Coinbase and Bitstamp are winning in the user 
> experience battle, which technically endanger the user, and by proxy 
> the Bitcoin network.
>
> Multi-sig as a default is a start.  It won't succeed unless the user 
> experience is simply better than trusted third parties, but we need to 
> start the education process with the very basic fundamental: trusting 
> a third-party with full access to your Bitcoin is just replacing one 
> centralized banking system with another.
>
>




 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 18:49           ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 19:00             ` Tamas Blummer

  2014-04-08  7:24               ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
  2014-04-08  7:59               ` Tamas Blummer
  
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-04-08  3:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Development

Being Mr. Torrent, I've held open the "80% serious" suggestion to
simply refuse to serve blocks older than X (3 months?).

That forces download by other means (presumably torrent).

I do not feel it is productive for any nodes on the network to waste
time/bandwidth/etc. serving static, ancient data.  There remain, of
course, issues of older nodes and "getting the word out" that prevents
this switch from being flipped on tomorrow.



On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>> BTW, did we already agree on the service bits for an archive node?
>
> I'm still very concerned that a binary archive bit will cause extreme
> load hot-spotting and the kind of binary "Use lots of resources YES or
> NO" I think we're currently suffering some from, but at that point
> enshrined in the protocol.
>
> It would be much better to extend the addr messages so that nodes can
> indicate a range or two of blocks that they're serving, so that all
> nodes can contribute fractionally according to their means. E.g. if
> you want to offer up 8 GB of distributed storage and contribute to the
> availability of the blockchain,  without having to swollow the whole
> 20, 30, 40 ... gigabyte pill.
>
> Already we need that kind of distributed storage for the most recent
> blocks to prevent extreme bandwidth load on archives, so extending it
> to arbitrary ranges is only more complicated because there is
> currently no room to signal it.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-08  3:44             ` Jeff Garzik

  2014-04-08  7:59               ` Tamas Blummer
  
From: Jean-Paul Kogelman @ 2014-04-08  7:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  Bitcoin Development

Isn't that just conceding that p2p protocol A is better than p2p protocol B?

Can't Bitcoin Core's block fetching be improved to get similar performance as a torrent + import?

Currently it's hard to go wide on data fetching because headers first is still pretty 'beefy'. The headers can be compressed, which would get you about 50% savings.

Also, maybe adding a layer that groups block headers into a single hash (say, 2016 headers), and then being able to fetch those (possibly compressed) header 'blocks' from multiple sources in parallel. And fanning out block fetches even further, favoring fast nodes.

Just thinking out loud.

jp

> On Apr 7, 2014, at 8:44 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
> 
> Being Mr. Torrent, I've held open the "80% serious" suggestion to
> simply refuse to serve blocks older than X (3 months?).
> 
> That forces download by other means (presumably torrent).
> 
> I do not feel it is productive for any nodes on the network to waste
> time/bandwidth/etc. serving static, ancient data.  There remain, of
> course, issues of older nodes and "getting the word out" that prevents
> this switch from being flipped on tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>>> BTW, did we already agree on the service bits for an archive node?
>> 
>> I'm still very concerned that a binary archive bit will cause extreme
>> load hot-spotting and the kind of binary "Use lots of resources YES or
>> NO" I think we're currently suffering some from, but at that point
>> enshrined in the protocol.
>> 
>> It would be much better to extend the addr messages so that nodes can
>> indicate a range or two of blocks that they're serving, so that all
>> nodes can contribute fractionally according to their means. E.g. if
>> you want to offer up 8 GB of distributed storage and contribute to the
>> availability of the blockchain,  without having to swollow the whole
>> 20, 30, 40 ... gigabyte pill.
>> 
>> Already we need that kind of distributed storage for the most recent
>> blocks to prevent extreme bandwidth load on archives, so extending it
>> to arbitrary ranges is only more complicated because there is
>> currently no room to signal it.
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-08  3:13         ` kjj

  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-04-08  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kjj;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 607 bytes --]

>
> Multi-sig requires infrastructure.  It isn't a magic wand that we can
> wave to make everyone secure.  The protocols and techniques necessary
> don't exist yet, and apparently no one has much of an incentive to
> create them.


It is starting to happen. If you're OK with using a specific web wallet
there's BitGo and greenaddress.it already, though I think their risk
analysis is just sending you an SMS code. I wrote up an integration plan
for bitcoinj a few days ago:

 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitcoinj/Uxl-z40OLuQ

but guess what? It's quite complicated. As with all these features.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-08  3:44             ` Jeff Garzik
  2014-04-08  7:24               ` Jean-Paul Kogelman

  
From: Tamas Blummer @ 2014-04-08  7:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  Bitcoin Development


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3167 bytes --]

Specialization of nodes is ongoing most prominent with SPV wallets and mining.

There is a need I see on my own business for software that is able to serve multiple wallets, and is multi tiered,
so the world facing P2P node can be in a DMZ. I target them with a hybrid model that is SPV plus mempool transaction validation 
against UTXO and use ‘reference’ implementations as border router.  I think that this setup will be common for enterprises 
and hence push for a stripped down ‘reference’ border router without wallet, payment protocol, GUI, RPC calls here. 

That border router could also serve as archive node evtl. also offering blocks at bulk e.g. through http. 
Enterprises that run a multi tiered environment have the bandwith to serve as archives.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 08.04.2014, at 05:44, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:

> Being Mr. Torrent, I've held open the "80% serious" suggestion to
> simply refuse to serve blocks older than X (3 months?).
> 
> That forces download by other means (presumably torrent).
> 
> I do not feel it is productive for any nodes on the network to waste
> time/bandwidth/etc. serving static, ancient data.  There remain, of
> course, issues of older nodes and "getting the word out" that prevents
> this switch from being flipped on tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof•com> wrote:
>>> BTW, did we already agree on the service bits for an archive node?
>> 
>> I'm still very concerned that a binary archive bit will cause extreme
>> load hot-spotting and the kind of binary "Use lots of resources YES or
>> NO" I think we're currently suffering some from, but at that point
>> enshrined in the protocol.
>> 
>> It would be much better to extend the addr messages so that nodes can
>> indicate a range or two of blocks that they're serving, so that all
>> nodes can contribute fractionally according to their means. E.g. if
>> you want to offer up 8 GB of distributed storage and contribute to the
>> availability of the blockchain,  without having to swollow the whole
>> 20, 30, 40 ... gigabyte pill.
>> 
>> Already we need that kind of distributed storage for the most recent
>> blocks to prevent extreme bandwidth load on archives, so extending it
>> to arbitrary ranges is only more complicated because there is
>> currently no room to signal it.
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
> 


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 13:50 ` Gregory Maxwell
  2014-04-07 13:53   ` Gregory Maxwell

  
From: Jesus Cea @ 2014-04-08 11:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

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On 07/04/14 15:50, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> Bitcoin.org recommends people away from running Bitcoin-QT now, so I'm
> not sure that we should generally find that trend surprising.

What options are out there for people caring about 20GB blockchain?
Depending of third party server is not an option.

-- 
Jesús Cea Avión                         _/_/      _/_/_/        _/_/_/
jcea@jcea•es - http://www.jcea.es/     _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
Twitter: @jcea                        _/_/    _/_/          _/_/_/_/_/
jabber / xmpp:jcea@jabber•org  _/_/  _/_/    _/_/          _/_/  _/_/
"Things are not so easy"      _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
"My name is Dump, Core Dump"   _/_/_/        _/_/_/      _/_/  _/_/
"El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:39     ` Chris Williams
  2014-04-07 18:23       ` Mike Hearn

  
From: Andrew LeCody @ 2014-04-08 17:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chris Williams;  Bitcoin Development

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My node (based in Dallas, TX) has about 240 connections and is using a
little under 4 Mbps in bandwidth right now.

According the hosting provider I'm at 11.85 Mbps for this week, using 95th
percentile billing. The report from my provider includes my other servers
though.


On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Chris Williams <chris@icloudtools•net>wrote:

> I’m afraid this is a highly simplistic view of the costs of running a full
> node.
>
> My node consumes fantastic amounts of data traffic, which is a real cost.
>
> In the 30 days ending Apri 6, my node:
>
> * Received 36.8 gb of data
> * Sent 456.5 gb data
>
> At my geographic service location (Singapore), this cost about $90 last
> month for bandwidth alone. It would be slightly cheaper if I was hosted in
> the US of course.
>
> But anyone can understand that moving a half-terrabyte of data around in a
> month will not be cheap.
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@gmail•com>
> wrote:
> >> 1. The resource requirements of a full node are moving beyond the
> >> capabilities of casual users. This isn't inherently a problem - after
> >> all most people don't grow their own food, tailor their own clothes, or
> >> keep blacksmith tools handy in to forge their own horseshoes either.
> >
> > Right now running a full node consumes about $1 in disk space
> > non-reoccurring and costs a couple cents in power per month.
> >
> > This isn't to say things are all ducky. But if you're going to say the
> > resource requirements are beyond the capabilities of casual users I'm
> > afraid I'm going to have to say: citation needed.
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Put Bad Developers to Shame
> > Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> > Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> > Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame
> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 14:15       ` Eric Martindale
                           ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2014-04-08  3:13         ` kjj

  2014-04-09 11:15           ` Wladimir
  
From: Wendell @ 2014-04-09 10:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eric Martindale;  bitcoin-development, Andreas Schildbach

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On that note, I think we have every possibility to make desktop and mobile wallets mind-numbingly simple -- and perhaps even do one better. Is this now a community priority? If so, I would really appreciate some additional contributors to Hive!

https://github.com/hivewallet/hive-osx
https://github.com/hivewallet/hive-android

-wendell

hivewallet.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | pgp 0x8C498718
twitter.com/bitcoinbookclub | campbitcoin.hivewallet.com

On Apr 7, 2014, at 9:15 PM, Eric Martindale wrote:

> We need to make it so mind-numbingly simple to "run Bitcoin correctly" that the average user doesn't find reasons to do so in the course of normal use.  Right now, Coinbase and Bitstamp are winning in the user experience battle, which technically endanger the user, and by proxy the Bitcoin network.
> 
> Multi-sig as a default is a start.  It won't succeed unless the user experience is simply better than trusted third parties, but we need to start the education process with the very basic fundamental: trusting a third-party with full access to your Bitcoin is just replacing one centralized banking system with another.

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-09 10:38         ` Wendell

  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-09 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wendell;  Andreas Schildbach, Bitcoin Dev

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On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Wendell <w@hivewallet•com> wrote:

> On that note, I think we have every possibility to make desktop and mobile
> wallets mind-numbingly simple -- and perhaps even do one better. Is this
> now a community priority? If so, I would really appreciate some additional
> contributors to Hive!
>
>
How does that relate to the nodes issue?

Would packaging an optional bitcoind with your wallet be an option, which
is automatically managed in the background, so that users can run a full
node if they want?

Wladimir

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 17:07 ` Drak

  2014-05-20  8:42     ` Mike Hearn
  2014-05-20 14:37     ` Eugen Leitl
  
From: bitcoingrant @ 2014-05-20  8:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drak;  Bitcoin Dev

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20  8:15   ` bitcoingrant

  2014-05-20 14:37     ` Eugen Leitl
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-05-20  8:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoingrant;  Bitcoin Dev

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Yeah I'm expecting port 8333 to go away in China at some point. Actually I
was expecting that years ago and was kind of surprised that the suppression
was being done via banks. Guess the GFW operators were just slow to catch
up.
On 20 May 2014 10:16, <bitcoingrant@gmx•com> wrote:

> Recently China has updated its firewall blocking bitcoin sites and pools.
> Whether this is simple blacklist or more sophisticated packet targeting
> is uncertain, however this update did spefically target VPN handshakes.
>
>  *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2014 at 1:07 PM
> *From:* Drak <drak@zikula•org>
> *To:* "Mike Hearn" <mike@plan99•net>
> *Cc:* "Bitcoin Dev" <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Why are we bleeding nodes?
>  For what it's worth, the number of nodes rose dramatically during the
> China bullrun (I recall 45k in China alone) and dropped as dramatically as
> the price after the first PBOC announcement designed to cool down bitcoin
> trading in China.
>
> On 7 April 2014 12:34, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
>>
>> At the start of February we had 10,000 bitcoin nodes. Now we have 8,500
>> and still falling:
>>
>>    http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/chart/?days=60
>>
>> I know all the reasons why people *might* stop running a node (uses too
>> much disk space, bandwidth, lost interest etc). But does anyone have any
>> idea how we might get more insight into what's really going on? It'd be
>> convenient if the subVer contained the operating system, as then we could
>> tell if the bleed was mostly from desktops/laptops (Windows/Mac), which
>> would be expected, or from virtual servers (Linux), which would be more
>> concerning.
>>
>> When you set up a Tor node, you can add your email address to the config
>> file and the Tor project sends you emails from time to time about things
>> you should know about. If we did the same, we could have a little exit
>> survey: if your node disappears for long enough, we could email the
>> operator and ask why they stopped.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Put Bad Developers to Shame
>> Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous Integration
>> Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment
>> Start a new project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_APR
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Put Bad Developers to Shame Dominate Development with Jenkins Continuous
> Integration Continuously Automate Build, Test & Deployment Start a new
> project now. Try Jenkins in the cloud.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13600_Cloudbees_______________________________________________Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20  8:15   ` bitcoingrant
  2014-05-20  8:42     ` Mike Hearn

  2014-05-20 14:52       ` Gmail
  
From: Eugen Leitl @ 2014-05-20 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 10:15:44AM +0200, bitcoingrant@gmx•com wrote:
>    Recently China has updated its firewall blocking bitcoin sites and pools.
>    Whether this is simple blacklist or more sophisticated packet targeting is
>    uncertain, however this update did spefically target VPN handshakes.

Could a blockchain fork due to network split happen?
     



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20 14:37     ` Eugen Leitl

  2014-05-20 18:46         ` Andy Alness
  
From: Gmail @ 2014-05-20 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eugen Leitl;  bitcoin-development

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Unlikely. I doubt any significant portion of miners in china will continue to mine on a china-specific chain, since it will certainly be outmined by non-Chinese miners, and will be orphaned eventually. 

More likely is that mining interests in china will make special arrangements to circumvent the GFwOC.

Users who can't access the worldwide blockchain will notice horrendously slow confirmation times and other side effects. 

> On May 20, 2014, at 10:37, Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl•org> 
> 
> Could a blockchain fork due to network split happen?
>     

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-07 12:26   ` Pieter Wuille
  2014-04-07 12:34     ` Mike Hearn
  2014-04-07 12:34     ` Jameson Lopp

  
From: Isidor Zeuner @ 2014-05-20 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Dev

> >
> > In my opinion, the number of full nodes doesn't matter (as long as
> > it's enough to satisfy demand by other nodes).
> >
>
> Correct. Still, a high number of nodes has a few other benefits:
>
> 1) The more nodes there are, the cheaper it should be to run each one,
> given that the bandwidth and CPU for serving the chain will be spread over
> more people.
>
> 2) It makes Bitcoin *seem* bigger, more robust and more decentralised,
> because there are more people uniting to run it. So there's a psychological
> benefit.
>

Psychological benefit vs. effective benefit involves the danger of
destroying trust in the Bitcoin network when there are hard facts for
non-robustness while the node number looks big. Therefore, it may make
sense to establish better metrics.

> Also, we don't have a good way to measure capacity vs demand at the moment.
> Whether we have enough capacity is rather a shot in the dark right now.
>
>
> > What matters is how hard it is to run one.
> >
>
> Which is why I'm interested to learn the reason behind the drop. Is it
> insufficient interest, or is running a node too painful?
>
> For this purpose I'd like to exclude people running Bitcoin Core on laptops
> or non-dedicated desktops. I don't think full nodes will ever make sense
> for consumer wallets again, and I see the bleeding off of those people as
> natural and expected (as Satoshi did). But if someone feels it's too hard
> to run on a cheap server then that'd concern me.
>

In my opinion, the characteristic of being able to make use of
non-dedicated nodes should be regarded as an advantage of the Bitcoin
protocol, and not something to get rid of. Nodes being able to
contribute this way may lead to even more robustness than
decentralization alone, as they can do so without exposing a fixed
address which could be attacked.

Best regards,

Isidor



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20 14:52       ` Gmail

  2014-05-20 19:17           ` Jeff Garzik
  
From: Andy Alness @ 2014-05-20 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gmail;  bitcoin-development

Has there ever been serious discussion on extending the protocol to
support UDP transport? That would allow for NAT traversal and for many
more people to run effective nodes. I'm also curious if it could be
made improve block propagation time.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Gmail <will.yager@gmail•com> wrote:
> Unlikely. I doubt any significant portion of miners in china will continue to mine on a china-specific chain, since it will certainly be outmined by non-Chinese miners, and will be orphaned eventually.
>
> More likely is that mining interests in china will make special arrangements to circumvent the GFwOC.
>
> Users who can't access the worldwide blockchain will notice horrendously slow confirmation times and other side effects.
>
>> On May 20, 2014, at 10:37, Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl•org>
>>
>> Could a blockchain fork due to network split happen?
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>



-- 
Andy Alness
Software Engineer
Coinbase
San Francisco, CA



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20 18:46         ` Andy Alness

  2014-05-20 20:09             ` Andy Alness
  
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-05-20 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andy Alness;  bitcoin-development

Yes, i spec'd out the UDP traversal of the P2P protocol.  It seems
reasonable especially for "inv" messages.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Andy Alness <andy@coinbase•com> wrote:
> Has there ever been serious discussion on extending the protocol to
> support UDP transport? That would allow for NAT traversal and for many
> more people to run effective nodes. I'm also curious if it could be
> made improve block propagation time.
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Gmail <will.yager@gmail•com> wrote:
>> Unlikely. I doubt any significant portion of miners in china will continue to mine on a china-specific chain, since it will certainly be outmined by non-Chinese miners, and will be orphaned eventually.
>>
>> More likely is that mining interests in china will make special arrangements to circumvent the GFwOC.
>>
>> Users who can't access the worldwide blockchain will notice horrendously slow confirmation times and other side effects.
>>
>>> On May 20, 2014, at 10:37, Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl•org>
>>>
>>> Could a blockchain fork due to network split happen?
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
>> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Alness
> Software Engineer
> Coinbase
> San Francisco, CA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20 19:17           ` Jeff Garzik

  2014-05-20 20:22               ` Jeff Garzik
  
From: Andy Alness @ 2014-05-20 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  bitcoin-development

Awesome! I'm assuming this is it:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=156769.0

It would be interesting (at least to me) to take this a step further
and offer UDP as a full TCP replacement capable of STUN-assisted NAT
traversal and possibly swarmed blockchain syncs. It would require open
TCP nodes to facilitate "connection" establishment. It is obviously a
non-trivial amount of work but would be an interesting experiment.
Maybe BitTorrent's µTP protocol could be leveraged.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
> Yes, i spec'd out the UDP traversal of the P2P protocol.  It seems
> reasonable especially for "inv" messages.
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Andy Alness <andy@coinbase•com> wrote:
>> Has there ever been serious discussion on extending the protocol to
>> support UDP transport? That would allow for NAT traversal and for many
>> more people to run effective nodes. I'm also curious if it could be
>> made improve block propagation time.
>>
>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Gmail <will.yager@gmail•com> wrote:
>>> Unlikely. I doubt any significant portion of miners in china will continue to mine on a china-specific chain, since it will certainly be outmined by non-Chinese miners, and will be orphaned eventually.
>>>
>>> More likely is that mining interests in china will make special arrangements to circumvent the GFwOC.
>>>
>>> Users who can't access the worldwide blockchain will notice horrendously slow confirmation times and other side effects.
>>>
>>>> On May 20, 2014, at 10:37, Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl•org>
>>>>
>>>> Could a blockchain fork due to network split happen?
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
>>> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
>>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Alness
>> Software Engineer
>> Coinbase
>> San Francisco, CA
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
>> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/



-- 
Andy Alness
Software Engineer
Coinbase
San Francisco, CA



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-05-20 20:09             ` Andy Alness

  
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-05-20 20:22 UTC ( / )
  To: Andy Alness;  bitcoin-development

Indeed -- you must reinvent TCP over UDP, ultimately, to handle blocks
and large TXs.


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Andy Alness <andy@coinbase•com> wrote:
> Awesome! I'm assuming this is it:
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=156769.0
>
> It would be interesting (at least to me) to take this a step further
> and offer UDP as a full TCP replacement capable of STUN-assisted NAT
> traversal and possibly swarmed blockchain syncs. It would require open
> TCP nodes to facilitate "connection" establishment. It is obviously a
> non-trivial amount of work but would be an interesting experiment.
> Maybe BitTorrent's µTP protocol could be leveraged.
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
>> Yes, i spec'd out the UDP traversal of the P2P protocol.  It seems
>> reasonable especially for "inv" messages.
>>
>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Andy Alness <andy@coinbase•com> wrote:
>>> Has there ever been serious discussion on extending the protocol to
>>> support UDP transport? That would allow for NAT traversal and for many
>>> more people to run effective nodes. I'm also curious if it could be
>>> made improve block propagation time.
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Gmail <will.yager@gmail•com> wrote:
>>>> Unlikely. I doubt any significant portion of miners in china will continue to mine on a china-specific chain, since it will certainly be outmined by non-Chinese miners, and will be orphaned eventually.
>>>>
>>>> More likely is that mining interests in china will make special arrangements to circumvent the GFwOC.
>>>>
>>>> Users who can't access the worldwide blockchain will notice horrendously slow confirmation times and other side effects.
>>>>
>>>>> On May 20, 2014, at 10:37, Eugen Leitl <eugen@leitl•org>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could a blockchain fork due to network split happen?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>>>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
>>>> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
>>>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andy Alness
>>> Software Engineer
>>> Coinbase
>>> San Francisco, CA
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
>>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.
>>> Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available
>>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Alness
> Software Engineer
> Coinbase
> San Francisco, CA



-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/