Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity

Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
2015-06-14 15:15 ` Jeff Garzik
                   ` (4 more replies)
  
From: Warren Togami Jr. @ 2015-06-14 10:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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Discomfort with Sourceforge

For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's
continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.  Downloads were moved
completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
project account.  The company's behavior and perceived stability have been
growing to be increasingly questionable.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer

November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer

https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/

May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads

http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194

June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.

When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most people
agreed it would be a good idea to move.  Someone always suggests Google
Groups as the replacement host.  Google is quickly shot down as too
controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
question as to who else should host it.  Realizing this is not so simple,
discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607

Somebody brought it up again this past week.

It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to continue
to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn’t much they could do to screw it
up.  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a gesture that
we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.  There are also some
benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to professionally
maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the content.

Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity

Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be
politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to
host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.
For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
dev list under their own name.  Even if what they published was 100%
technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
and it would have easily gone nowhere.

I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a
generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon
and use.  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that already host
various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
Linux Foundation.  Google is too controversial in this community, and the
IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.  The Linux Foundation
hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo> and it seems that
nobody in the Open Source industry considers them to be particularly
objectionable.  I talked with LF about the idea of hosting generic
Bitcoin-related infrastructure development lists.  They agreed as OSS
infrastructure dev is already within their charter, so early this week
sidechains-dev list began hosting there.

From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a
great fit.  Why?  While they are interested in supporting general open
source development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.  In addition
to neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.  They have
full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman
server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3 <http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3>,
which means mailing lists would benefit from the improved archive browser.
I am not personally familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they
are a stable non-profit entity who will competently maintain and improve
things like their Mailman deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant
Sourceforge).  It seems that LF would be competent, neutral place to host
dev lists for the long-term.

To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.  The
LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity
should.

Proposed Action Plan


   -

   Discuss this openly within this community.  Above is one example of a
   great neutral and competent host.  If the technical leaders here can agree
   to move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
   -

   Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.  We
   import the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user
   convenience.
   -

   http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/  Kill bitcoin-list and
   bitcoin-test.  Very few people actually use it.  Actually, let's delete the
   entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves no
   purpose and it only confuses people who find it.  By deletion, nobody has
   to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident
   <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4Mzg> or GIMP-type
   hijacking <https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/>?
   -

   The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the
   subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a tendency to
   upset people.


Thoughts?

Warren Togami

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-14 15:15 ` 
                   ` 
  
From: Warren Togami Jr. @ 2015-06-14 10:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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Discomfort with Sourceforge

For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's
continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.  Downloads were moved
completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
project account.  The company's behavior and perceived stability have been
growing to be increasingly questionable.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer

November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer

https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/

May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads

http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194

June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.

When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most people
agreed it would be a good idea to move.  Someone always suggests Google
Groups as the replacement host.  Google is quickly shot down as too
controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
question as to who else should host it.  Realizing this is not so simple,
discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607

Somebody brought it up again this past week.

It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to continue
to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn’t much they could do to screw it
up.  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a gesture that
we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.  There are also some
benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to professionally
maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the content.

Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity

Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be
politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to
host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.
For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
dev list under their own name.  Even if what they published was 100%
technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
and it would have easily gone nowhere.

I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a
generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon
and use.  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that already host
various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
Linux Foundation.  Google is too controversial in this community, and the
IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.  The Linux Foundation
hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo> and it seems that
nobody in the Open Source industry considers them to be particularly
objectionable.  I talked with LF about the idea of hosting generic
Bitcoin-related infrastructure development lists.  They agreed as OSS
infrastructure dev is already within their charter, so early this week
sidechains-dev list began hosting there.

From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a
great fit.  Why?  While they are interested in supporting general open
source development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.  In addition
to neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.  They have
full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman
server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3 <http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3>,
which means mailing lists would benefit from the improved archive browser.
I am not personally familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they
are a stable non-profit entity who will competently maintain and improve
things like their Mailman deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant
Sourceforge).  It seems that LF would be competent, neutral place to host
dev lists for the long-term.

To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.  The
LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity
should.

Proposed Action Plan


   -

   Discuss this openly within this community.  Above is one example of a
   great neutral and competent host.  If the technical leaders here can agree
   to move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
   -

   Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.  We
   import the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user
   convenience.
   -

   http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/  Kill bitcoin-list and
   bitcoin-test.  Very few people actually use it.  Actually, let's delete the
   entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves no
   purpose and it only confuses people who find it.  By deletion, nobody has
   to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident
   <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4Mzg> or GIMP-type
   hijacking <https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/>?
   -

   The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the
   subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a tendency to
   upset people.


Thoughts?

Warren Togami

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2015-06-14 15:15 ` Jeff Garzik

  2015-06-15  3:19   ` Warren Togami Jr.
  
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-14 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  Bitcoin Dev

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On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 11:15:18AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> * ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only once a
> community-welcomed replacement is up and running
> 
> * ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider
> 
> * Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The list is
> not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it would perhaps be
> nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing list participants
> individually hold keys & therefore access.

ACK to the above as well.

-- 
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
0000000000000000127ab1d576dc851f374424f1269c4700ccaba2c42d97e778

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
* 
  2015-06-14 10:12 [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity Warren Togami Jr.

  2015-06-14 16:56   ` Peter Todd
  2015-06-15  3:19   ` Warren Togami Jr.
  2015-06-14 20:55 ` 
                   ` 
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-14 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Togami Jr.;  Bitcoin Dev

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* ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only once a
community-welcomed replacement is up and running

* ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider

* Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The list is
not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it would perhaps be
nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing list participants
individually hold keys & therefore access.


On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail•com>
wrote:

> Discomfort with Sourceforge
>
> For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's
> continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.  Downloads were moved
> completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
> project account.  The company's behavior and perceived stability have been
> growing to be increasingly questionable.
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer
>
> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/
>
> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads
>
> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
>
> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.
>
> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most
> people agreed it would be a good idea to move.  Someone always suggests
> Google Groups as the replacement host.  Google is quickly shot down as too
> controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
> question as to who else should host it.  Realizing this is not so simple,
> discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.
>
>
> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607
>
> Somebody brought it up again this past week.
>
> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to
> continue to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn’t much they could do to
> screw it up.  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a
> gesture that we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.  There are
> also some benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to
> professionally maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to
> the content.
>
> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
>
> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be
> politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to
> host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.
> For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
> inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
> dev list under their own name.  Even if what they published was 100%
> technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
> dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
> and it would have easily gone nowhere.
>
> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a
> generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon
> and use.  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that already host
> various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
> Linux Foundation.  Google is too controversial in this community, and the
> IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.  The Linux Foundation
> hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo> and it seems that
> nobody in the Open Source industry considers them to be particularly
> objectionable.  I talked with LF about the idea of hosting generic
> Bitcoin-related infrastructure development lists.  They agreed as OSS
> infrastructure dev is already within their charter, so early this week
> sidechains-dev list began hosting there.
>
> From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a
> great fit.  Why?  While they are interested in supporting general open
> source development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.  In addition
> to neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.  They have
> full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman
> server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3
> <http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3>, which means mailing lists would benefit
> from the improved archive browser.  I am not personally familiar with
> HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-profit entity who
> will competently maintain and improve things like their Mailman deployment
> (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).  It seems that LF would
> be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the long-term.
>
> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.  The
> LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity
> should.
>
> Proposed Action Plan
>
>
>    -
>
>    Discuss this openly within this community.  Above is one example of a
>    great neutral and competent host.  If the technical leaders here can agree
>    to move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
>    -
>
>    Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.  We
>    import the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user
>    convenience.
>    -
>
>    http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/  Kill bitcoin-list and
>    bitcoin-test.  Very few people actually use it.  Actually, let's delete the
>    entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves no
>    purpose and it only confuses people who find it.  By deletion, nobody has
>    to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident
>    <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4Mzg> or GIMP-type
>    hijacking <https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/>?
>    -
>
>    The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing
>    the subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a tendency
>    to upset people.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Warren Togami
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>


-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

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^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* 
  2015-06-14 10:12 [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity Warren Togami Jr.
  2015-06-14 15:15 ` Jeff Garzik

  2015-06-14 21:59   ` Adam Back
  2015-06-14 21:54 ` 
                   ` 
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Andy Schroder @ 2015-06-14 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Togami Jr., Bitcoin Dev


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Hello,

I'd support moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also against 
google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates that 
SourceForge is not playing nice on other issues and that moving this 
list shows their behavior is being acknowledged.

I understand your reason for wanting to delete the Source Forge account 
(after reading the links). However, the only problem with that is that 
the SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some early 
messages from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after its inception, as 
well as this mailing list even later on, it's nice to be able to review 
the archives. SourceForge's interface to those archives is pretty bad 
though. I'm not sure if there is any way to get older messages archived 
on sites like gmane or mail-archive? Does anyone know? You mentioned 
importing the list archive as part of the migration plan, but I guess is 
this easy to do from SourceForge?


Andy Schroder

On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:
>
> Discomfort with Sourceforge
>
> For a while now people have been expressing concern about 
> Sourceforge's continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.Â  
> Downloads were moved completely to bitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org> 
> after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF project account.Â  The 
> company's behavior and perceived stability have been growing to be 
> increasingly questionable.
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer
>
> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/
>
> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads
>
> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
>
> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.
>
>
> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most 
> people agreed it would be a good idea to move.Â Someone always 
> suggests Google Groups as the replacement host.Â  Google is quickly 
> shot down as too controversial in this community, and it becomes an 
> even more difficult question as to who else should host it.Â  
> Realizing this is not so simple, discussion then dies off until the 
> next time somebody brings it up.
>
>
> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607
>
> Somebody brought it up again this past week.
>
>
> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to 
> continue to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isnâEUR^(TM)t much they 
> could do to screw it up.Â  I personally think moving it away now would 
> be seen as a gesture that we do not consider their behavior to be 
> acceptable.Â There are also some benefits in being hosted elsewhere, 
> at an entity able to professionally maintain their infrastructure 
> while also being neutral to the content.
>
>
> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
>
>
> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would 
> be politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or 
> orgs to host due to questions it would raise about perceived political 
> control.Â  For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where 
> MtGox was the inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development 
> infrastructure and dev list under their own name.Â  Even if what they 
> published was 100% technically and ideologically equivalent to the 
> Bitcoin we know in our dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it 
> merely due to appearances and it would have easily gone nowhere.
>
>
> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was 
> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to 
> be a generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can 
> build upon and use.Â  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs 
> that already host various open source infrastructure discussion lists 
> like the IETF or the Linux Foundation.Â Google is too controversial in 
> this community, and the IETF is seen as possibly too politically 
> fractured.Â  The Linux Foundation hosts a bunch of infrastructure 
> lists <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo>and it seems 
> that nobody in the Open Source industry considers them to be 
> particularly objectionable.Â  I talked with LF about the idea of 
> hosting generic Bitcoin-related infrastructure development lists.Â  
> They agreed as OSS infrastructure dev is already within their charter, 
> so early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting there.
>
>
> From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a 
> great fit.Â  Why?Â  While they are interested in supporting general 
> open source development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.Â  In 
> addition to neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competenthost.Â  
> They have full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure 
> including the Mailman server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3 
> <http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3>, which means mailing lists would 
> benefit from the improved archive browser.Â  I am not personally 
> familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable 
> non-profit entity who will competently maintain and improve things 
> like their Mailman deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant 
> Sourceforge).Â  It seems that LF would be competent, neutral place to 
> host dev lists for the long-term.
>
>
> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion 
> list.Â  The LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no 
> single entity should.
>
>
> Proposed Action Plan
>
>
>  *
>
>     Discuss this openly within this community.Â  Above is one example
>     of a great neutral and competent host.Â  If the technical leaders
>     here can agree to move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
>
>  *
>
>     Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.Â We
>     import the entire list archive into the new host's archives for
>     user convenience.
>
>  *
>
>     http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ Â Kill bitcoin-list and
>     bitcoin-test.Â  Very few people actually use it.Â  Actually, let's
>     delete the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued
>     existence serves no purpose and it only confuses people who find
>     it.Â  By deletion, nobody has to monitor it for a repeat of the
>     Sept 2014 hacking incident
>     <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc4Mzg>or
>     GIMP-type hijacking <https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/>?
>
>  *
>
>     The toughest question would be the appropriateness of
>     auto-importing the subscriber list to another list server, as mass
>     imports have a tendency to upset people.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Warren Togami
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 16+ messages in thread
2015-06-14 20:55 ` Andy Schroder

  2015-06-14 22:14     ` Davide Cavion
  
From: Adam Back @ 2015-06-14 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andy Schroder;  Bitcoin Dev

It might be as well to keep the archive but disable new posts as
otherwise we create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on
sourceforge.

The list is also archived on mail-archive though.
https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/

Adam

On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder <info@andyschroder•com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'd support moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also against
> google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates that SourceForge
> is not playing nice on other issues and that moving this list shows their
> behavior is being acknowledged.
>
> I understand your reason for wanting to delete the Source Forge account
> (after reading the links). However, the only problem with that is that the
> SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some early messages
> from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after its inception, as well as this
> mailing list even later on, it's nice to be able to review the archives.
> SourceForge's interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm not sure
> if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites like gmane or
> mail-archive? Does anyone know? You mentioned importing the list archive as
> part of the migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from SourceForge?
>
>
> Andy Schroder
>
> On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:
>
> Discomfort with Sourceforge
>
> For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's
> continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.Â  Downloads were moved
> completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
> project account.Â  The company's behavior and perceived stability have been
> growing to be increasingly questionable.
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer
>
> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/
>
> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads
>
> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
>
> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.
>
>
> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most people
> agreed it would be a good idea to move.Â  Someone always suggests Google
> Groups as the replacement host.Â  Google is quickly shot down as too
> controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
> question as to who else should host it.Â  Realizing this is not so simple,
> discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.
>
>
> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607
>
> Somebody brought it up again this past week.
>
>
> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to continue
> to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isnâ€™t much they could do to screw it
> up.Â  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a gesture that
> we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.Â  There are also some
> benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to professionally
> maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the content.
>
>
> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
>
>
> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be
> politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to
> host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.Â
> For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
> inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
> dev list under their own name.Â  Even if what they published was 100%
> technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
> dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
> and it would have easily gone nowhere.
>
>
> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a
> generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon
> and use.Â  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that already host
> various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
> Linux Foundation.Â  Google is too controversial in this community, and the
> IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.Â  The Linux Foundation
> hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the Open
> Source industry considers them to be particularly objectionable.Â  I talked
> with LF about the idea of hosting generic Bitcoin-related infrastructure
> development lists.Â  They agreed as OSS infrastructure dev is already within
> their charter, so early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting there.
>
>
> From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a great
> fit.Â  Why?Â  While they are interested in supporting general open source
> development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.Â  In addition to
> neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.Â  They have
> full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman
> server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means mailing lists
> would benefit from the improved archive browser.Â  I am not personally
> familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-profit
> entity who will competently maintain and improve things like their Mailman
> deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).Â  It seems
> that LF would be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the
> long-term.
>
>
> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.Â  The
> LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity
> should.
>
>
> Proposed Action Plan
>
>
> Discuss this openly within this community.Â  Above is one example of a great
> neutral and competent host.Â  If the technical leaders here can agree to
> move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
>
> Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.Â  We import
> the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user convenience.
>
> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ Â Kill bitcoin-list and
> bitcoin-test.Â  Very few people actually use it.Â  Actually, let's delete
> the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves no
> purpose and it only confuses people who find it.Â  By deletion, nobody has
> to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or GIMP-type
> hijacking?
>
> The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the
> subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a tendency to
> upset people.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Warren Togami
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-14 21:59   ` Adam Back

  
From: Davide Cavion @ 2015-06-14 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8572 bytes --]

Hi,

I just wanted to let everyone know that every email is also archived at bitcoin-development.narkive.com <http://bitcoin-development.narkive.com/>, where you can find everything since the beginning of the list (June 2011). That should answer to Andy’s concern about the older messages not being archived anywhere but on sourceforge.

Davide


> On 14 Jun 2015, at 23:59, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace•org> wrote:
> 
> It might be as well to keep the archive but disable new posts as
> otherwise we create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on
> sourceforge.
> 
> The list is also archived on mail-archive though.
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/
> 
> Adam
> 
> On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder <info@andyschroder•com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I'd support moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also against
>> google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates that SourceForge
>> is not playing nice on other issues and that moving this list shows their
>> behavior is being acknowledged.
>> 
>> I understand your reason for wanting to delete the Source Forge account
>> (after reading the links). However, the only problem with that is that the
>> SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some early messages
>> from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after its inception, as well as this
>> mailing list even later on, it's nice to be able to review the archives.
>> SourceForge's interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm not sure
>> if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites like gmane or
>> mail-archive? Does anyone know? You mentioned importing the list archive as
>> part of the migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from SourceForge?
>> 
>> 
>> Andy Schroder
>> 
>> On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:
>> 
>> Discomfort with Sourceforge
>> 
>> For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's
>> continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.Â  Downloads were moved
>> completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
>> project account.Â  The company's behavior and perceived stability have been
>> growing to be increasingly questionable.
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer
>> 
>> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer
>> 
>> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/
>> 
>> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads
>> 
>> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
>> 
>> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.
>> 
>> 
>> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most people
>> agreed it would be a good idea to move.Â  Someone always suggests Google
>> Groups as the replacement host.Â  Google is quickly shot down as too
>> controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
>> question as to who else should host it.Â  Realizing this is not so simple,
>> discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.
>> 
>> 
>> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607
>> 
>> Somebody brought it up again this past week.
>> 
>> 
>> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to continue
>> to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isnâ€™t much they could do to screw it
>> up.Â  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a gesture that
>> we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.Â  There are also some
>> benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to professionally
>> maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the content.
>> 
>> 
>> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
>> 
>> 
>> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be
>> politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to
>> host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.Â
>> For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
>> inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
>> dev list under their own name.Â  Even if what they published was 100%
>> technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
>> dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
>> and it would have easily gone nowhere.
>> 
>> 
>> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
>> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a
>> generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon
>> and use.Â  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that already host
>> various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
>> Linux Foundation.Â  Google is too controversial in this community, and the
>> IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.Â  The Linux Foundation
>> hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the Open
>> Source industry considers them to be particularly objectionable.Â  I talked
>> with LF about the idea of hosting generic Bitcoin-related infrastructure
>> development lists.Â  They agreed as OSS infrastructure dev is already within
>> their charter, so early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting there.
>> 
>> 
>> From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a great
>> fit.Â  Why?Â  While they are interested in supporting general open source
>> development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.Â  In addition to
>> neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.Â  They have
>> full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman
>> server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means mailing lists
>> would benefit from the improved archive browser.Â  I am not personally
>> familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-profit
>> entity who will competently maintain and improve things like their Mailman
>> deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).Â  It seems
>> that LF would be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the
>> long-term.
>> 
>> 
>> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.Â  The
>> LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity
>> should.
>> 
>> 
>> Proposed Action Plan
>> 
>> 
>> Discuss this openly within this community.Â  Above is one example of a great
>> neutral and competent host.Â  If the technical leaders here can agree to
>> move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
>> 
>> Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.Â  We import
>> the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user convenience.
>> 
>> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ Â Kill bitcoin-list and
>> bitcoin-test.Â  Very few people actually use it.Â  Actually, let's delete
>> the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves no
>> purpose and it only confuses people who find it.Â  By deletion, nobody has
>> to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or GIMP-type
>> hijacking?
>> 
>> The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the
>> subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a tendency to
>> upset people.
>> 
>> 
>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> 
>> Warren Togami
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-14 10:12 [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity Warren Togami Jr.
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2015-06-14 21:54 ` odinn

  2015-06-15 10:13 ` Mike Hearn
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2015-06-14 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Togami Jr.;  Bitcoin Dev

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail•com> wrote:
> From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a great
> fit.  Why?  While they are interested in supporting general open source
> development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.  In addition to
> neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.  They have

I support this proposal.

But for clarity sake, we should recognize that Linux Foundation isn't
a charity chartered to act in the public good, is a trade organization
which acts in the commercial interest of it's membership.

I do not think this presents a problem: LF's membership's interests
are not at odds with ours currently, and aren't likely to become so
(doubly so with sourceforge as the comparison point). We are, after
all, just talking about a development mailing list; in the unlikely
case that there were issues in the future it could be changed, and
they've demonstrated considerable competence at this kind of operation
as well, and I would be grateful to have their support.  I mention it
only because the 'foundation' name sometimes carries the charity
confusion, and to be clear that I think the stakes on this matter are
small enough that it doesn't require a careful weighing of interests.
These concerns may matter for other initiatives but as you note, LF
has zero stake beyond the general support of the open source
ecosystem.

I do not believe it would be wise to delete the SF account, at least
while there are many active links to it. As it might well be recreated
to 'mirror' things as a 'service' to those following the old links.

I also agree with Jeff's comments wrt, bitcoin-security.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-14 15:15 ` Jeff Garzik
  2015-06-14 16:56   ` Peter Todd

  2015-06-15  5:50     ` Andy Schroder
                       ` (2 more replies)
  
From: Warren Togami Jr. @ 2015-06-15  3:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2162 bytes --]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:

> * ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only once a
> community-welcomed replacement is up and running
>
> * ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider
>
> * Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The list is
> not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it would perhaps be
> nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing list participants
> individually hold keys & therefore access.
>
>
While I agree this is a good idea, this should not be a precondition for
moving the public bitcoin-dev list.  The security team needs to separately
research/write tools needed for this.

<jgarzik> warren, wanna just go ahead and create bitcoin-development @ LF?


*More Feedback?*  As for going ahead, perhaps we should wait to hear from
more of the other technical leaders?

*More Questions*

*List Name?*  Would people prefer "bitcoin-development" for he new list
name instead of a shorter name like "bitcoin-dev"?  I personally like the
shorter name, but either is fine.
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo currently has
"sidechains-dev", and "lightning-dev" is moving there sometime soon.

*Proposed Cut-Off Date?*  Then we also need to agree on a date to cut off
the old list.  Their sysadmin said we could have the new list auto-post
from the old list for a short while.  I wonder how well that works ... if
that will result in double posting if people write to the new and CC the
old list.  Needs a little research how well it would behave to have both
lists operating during a transition period.  I think we should announce a
cut-off date when posts to the old list is shut off, July 15th, one month
from now.  Thoughts?

*Moderators?*  Mailman on the new server allows having separate logins for
admins and moderators.  I think the admins of the old SF project are gavin,
jgarzik and sipa... they are kind of busy.  Perhaps we should identify
known trusted community members who can help with moderation.  Usually this
is dealing with "held" messages that are flagged by the spam filter

Warren Togami

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-14 15:15 ` Jeff Garzik
  2015-06-14 16:56   ` Peter Todd

  2015-06-15  5:50     ` 
                       ` 
  
From: Warren Togami Jr. @ 2015-06-15  3:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2162 bytes --]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:

> * ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only once a
> community-welcomed replacement is up and running
>
> * ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider
>
> * Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The list is
> not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it would perhaps be
> nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing list participants
> individually hold keys & therefore access.
>
>
While I agree this is a good idea, this should not be a precondition for
moving the public bitcoin-dev list.  The security team needs to separately
research/write tools needed for this.

<jgarzik> warren, wanna just go ahead and create bitcoin-development @ LF?


*More Feedback?*  As for going ahead, perhaps we should wait to hear from
more of the other technical leaders?

*More Questions*

*List Name?*  Would people prefer "bitcoin-development" for he new list
name instead of a shorter name like "bitcoin-dev"?  I personally like the
shorter name, but either is fine.
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo currently has
"sidechains-dev", and "lightning-dev" is moving there sometime soon.

*Proposed Cut-Off Date?*  Then we also need to agree on a date to cut off
the old list.  Their sysadmin said we could have the new list auto-post
from the old list for a short while.  I wonder how well that works ... if
that will result in double posting if people write to the new and CC the
old list.  Needs a little research how well it would behave to have both
lists operating during a transition period.  I think we should announce a
cut-off date when posts to the old list is shut off, July 15th, one month
from now.  Thoughts?

*Moderators?*  Mailman on the new server allows having separate logins for
admins and moderators.  I think the admins of the old SF project are gavin,
jgarzik and sipa... they are kind of busy.  Perhaps we should identify
known trusted community members who can help with moderation.  Usually this
is dealing with "held" messages that are flagged by the spam filter

Warren Togami

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-15  3:19   ` Warren Togami Jr.
  2015-06-15  5:50     ` Andy Schroder

  2015-06-17  0:19     ` Warren Togami Jr.
  
From: odinn @ 2015-06-15  9:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

What about Gittorrent?

http://blog.printf.net/articles/2015/05/29/announcing-gittorrent-a-decen
tralized-github/

On 06/14/2015 08:19 PM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com 
> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay•com>> wrote:
> 
> * ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only 
> once a community-welcomed replacement is up and running
> 
> * ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider
> 
> * Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The 
> list is not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it 
> would perhaps be nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where
> mailing list participants individually hold keys & therefore
> access.
> 
> 
> While I agree this is a good idea, this should not be a
> precondition for moving the public bitcoin-dev list.  The security
> team needs to separately research/write tools needed for this.
> 
> <jgarzik> warren, wanna just go ahead and create
> bitcoin-development @ LF?
> 
> 
> *More Feedback?*  As for going ahead, perhaps we should wait to
> hear from more of the other technical leaders?
> 
> *_More Questions_*
> 
> *List Name?*  Would people prefer "bitcoin-development" for he new
> list name instead of a shorter name like "bitcoin-dev"?  I
> personally like the shorter name, but either is fine. 
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo currently has 
> "sidechains-dev", and "lightning-dev" is moving there sometime
> soon.
> 
> *Proposed Cut-Off Date?*  Then we also need to agree on a date to
> cut off the old list.  Their sysadmin said we could have the new
> list auto-post from the old list for a short while.  I wonder how
> well that works ... if that will result in double posting if people
> write to the new and CC the old list.  Needs a little research how
> well it would behave to have both lists operating during a
> transition period.  I think we should announce a cut-off date when
> posts to the old list is shut off, July 15th, one month from now.
> Thoughts?
> 
> *Moderators?*  Mailman on the new server allows having separate
> logins for admins and moderators.  I think the admins of the old SF
> project are gavin, jgarzik and sipa... they are kind of busy.
> Perhaps we should identify known trusted community members who can
> help with moderation. Usually this is dealing with "held" messages
> that are flagged by the spam filter
> 
> Warren Togami
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------
>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development
> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-14 10:12 [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity Warren Togami Jr.
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2015-06-14 22:38 ` Gregory Maxwell

  2015-06-15 19:45   ` Adam Weiss
  
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-06-15 10:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Togami Jr.;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1114 bytes --]

Bear in mind the problem that stops Jeff's messages getting through is that
mailman 1.0 doesn't know how to handle DKIM properly. Switching to a
different mailman provider won't fix that.

Does mailman 3.0 even fix this? I found it difficult to tell from their
website. There's a big page on the mailman wiki that suggests they "fixed"
it by simply deleting the signatures entirely, which won't work. DMARC
policies state that mail *must* be signed and unsigned/incorrectly signed
message should be discarded.

The user documentation for mailman 3 doesn't seem to exist? The links on
the website are docs for 2.1, perhaps they released mailman 3 without
refreshing the docs.

Google Groups may be "controversial" but if I recall correctly the main
issue was the question of whether you needed a Google account or not. I'm
pretty sure you can just send an email to
groupname+subscribe@googlegroups•com even if you don't have a Google
account. But of course this is a bizarre standard to hold mailing list
software to: mailman asks users to create an account for each listserv in
order to manage a subscription too!

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-06-15 10:13 ` Mike Hearn

  2015-06-15 20:50     ` Pieter Wuille
  
From: Adam Weiss @ 2015-06-15 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2476 bytes --]

Recent versions of mailman strip DKIM signatures, rewrite the envelope-from
to use an address at the list's domain and set reply-to to the original
authors address to resolve the DMARC issue.  I'm on several lists that do
this and it works just fine.

+1 on moving the list.  Given the fact that the mails are archived in
public, it's not really a huge deal how it takes place.  One month sounds
reasonable (although I think it could be done on a shorter timescale).  I'd
setup the new list to allow subscriptions, but keep it moderated to keep
discussion from moving until the cut, send lots of warnings and then on the
big day unmoderate one and moderate the other.

It's a great opportunity to hardfork something in Bitcoin without risk of
breakage, losses or entertaining melodrama. : )

--adam

ps. I think SF will let project admins download mbox archives of the list,
the new admins should be able to import them to keep archive consistency in
one place.


On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:

> Bear in mind the problem that stops Jeff's messages getting through is
> that mailman 1.0 doesn't know how to handle DKIM properly. Switching to a
> different mailman provider won't fix that.
>
> Does mailman 3.0 even fix this? I found it difficult to tell from their
> website. There's a big page on the mailman wiki that suggests they "fixed"
> it by simply deleting the signatures entirely, which won't work. DMARC
> policies state that mail *must* be signed and unsigned/incorrectly signed
> message should be discarded.
>
> The user documentation for mailman 3 doesn't seem to exist? The links on
> the website are docs for 2.1, perhaps they released mailman 3 without
> refreshing the docs.
>
> Google Groups may be "controversial" but if I recall correctly the main
> issue was the question of whether you needed a Google account or not. I'm
> pretty sure you can just send an email to
> groupname+subscribe@googlegroups•com even if you don't have a Google
> account. But of course this is a bizarre standard to hold mailing list
> software to: mailman asks users to create an account for each listserv in
> order to manage a subscription too!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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2015-06-15 19:45   ` Adam Weiss

  
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2015-06-15 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Weiss;  Bitcoin Dev

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On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Adam Weiss <adam@signal11•com> wrote:

> ps. I think SF will let project admins download mbox archives of the list,
> the new admins should be able to import them to keep archive consistency in
> one place.
>

That seems to be right. I just downloaded the entire archive of this list
(64 Mbyte, took a few seconds).

-- 
Pieter

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2015-06-15  3:19   ` Warren Togami Jr.
  2015-06-15  5:50     ` Andy Schroder
  2015-06-15  9:13     ` odinn

  2015-06-17  1:59       ` grarpamp
  
From: Warren Togami Jr. @ 2015-06-17  0:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jeff Garzik;  Bitcoin Dev

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On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail•com>
wrote:

>
> *List Name?*  Would people prefer "bitcoin-development" for he new list
> name instead of a shorter name like "bitcoin-dev"?  I personally like the
> shorter name, but either is fine.
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo currently has
> "sidechains-dev", and "lightning-dev" is moving there sometime soon.
>

We're going ahead with "bitcoin-dev".  A request for creation is now
pending.


>
> *Proposed Cut-Off Date?*  Then we also need to agree on a date to cut off
> the old list.  Their sysadmin said we could have the new list auto-post
> from the old list for a short while.  I wonder how well that works ... if
> that will result in double posting if people write to the new and CC the
> old list.  Needs a little research how well it would behave to have both
> lists operating during a transition period.  I think we should announce a
> cut-off date when posts to the old list is shut off, July 15th, one month
> from now.  Thoughts?
>

Off-list I heard a suggestion to make the cut-off date as short as one week
after the new list is announced and people are given the option to
subscribe.  Could people please post feelings about this?

It seems most everyone agreed not to auto-subscribe everyone onto the new
list as that tends to be upsetting.

There is clarity if subscribing the old list to the new list is a good
idea.  Is anyone familiar with Mailman, is it smart enough to somehow
prevent double-posts if someone writes to both the old and new address?

Warren Togami

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2015-06-17  0:19     ` Warren Togami Jr.

  
From: grarpamp @ 2015-06-17  1:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

Please no GoogleGroups. Stick with mailman or some other open
source thing you can move around from place to place as needed.

Also, online third party archives die, their web interfaces suck
ass, they're bloated, don't export, aren't offline capable or
authoritative, etc.

You need to make the raw archives (past and future) downloadable
in mbox format and updated daily, with full unobfuscated headers
for threading and replying, with signatures and attachments.
Commonly for newcomers wishing to seed their own MUA's and archives,
mirrors, search, and so on.

One such breakage of archives by mailman defaults was discussed and
corrected here:
https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/

You also need to get rid of the tag in the subject, it wastes
valuable space and mail filters work just the same without it.

Please no "forums" (see suck above). Unless they have bidirectional
realtime message copying between list and forum. Or at least make
available exports of their message database.

Further, when will the crypto P2P communities develop and use
distributed messaging systems... bitmessage, blockchain, etc as
rough examples... to avoid old centralized issues. At some point you
have to start eating your own dog food and make people run the
clients and come to you instead. Disruptive tech is the new good.



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