Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?)

Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?)
2014-04-16  8:45 ` Melvin Carvalho
                   ` (3 more replies)
  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-16  8:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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Hello,

Today I noticed that even my bank is warning people to not do internet
banking with Windows XP.

If it is no longer secure enough for online banking it's CERTAINLY not
secure enough to run a wallet (for a node only it would be ok-ish as they
have no keys to protect).
Any opinions on what to do here? Just warn and allow the user to continue?
Redirect them to a 'Windows XP is dangerous' message on bitcoin.org?
(Microsoft uses http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help)

The drawback of dropping XP support completely would be that a lot of
computers (especially in China and Russia etc) are still running XP, so
this could cause the network to lose nodes.

If you're maintainer of other wallet software: how are you handling this?
Are you going to drop XP support completely? If so, starting from when?

Regards,
Wladimir

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16  8:45 ` 
                   ` 
  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-16  8:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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Hello,

Today I noticed that even my bank is warning people to not do internet
banking with Windows XP.

If it is no longer secure enough for online banking it's CERTAINLY not
secure enough to run a wallet (for a node only it would be ok-ish as they
have no keys to protect).
Any opinions on what to do here? Just warn and allow the user to continue?
Redirect them to a 'Windows XP is dangerous' message on bitcoin.org?
(Microsoft uses http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help)

The drawback of dropping XP support completely would be that a lot of
computers (especially in China and Russia etc) are still running XP, so
this could cause the network to lose nodes.

If you're maintainer of other wallet software: how are you handling this?
Are you going to drop XP support completely? If so, starting from when?

Regards,
Wladimir

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2014-04-16  8:45 ` Melvin Carvalho

  2014-04-16 11:06     ` [Bitcoin-development] mid-term bitcoin security (Re: Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?)) Adam Back
  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-16  9:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Melvin Carvalho;  Bitcoin Dev

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On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Melvin Carvalho
<melvincarvalho@gmail•com>wrote:

> XP with a trezor would work fine tho?
>

Probably - but that's a very rare edge case. People that are security
conscious enough to buy a Trezor will not run XP. Also I don't dare to say
that there is not some way to sociaal-engineer the user with malware on a
compromised OS even with a trezor.

Maybe: for 0.9.2 add a warning message and push people to upgrade (either
to Win8.1 or something else), then in the next major release 0.10.0 drop XP
support completely.

Wladimir

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2014-04-16  9:41   ` Wladimir

  2014-04-18 14:26       ` Jeff Garzik
  2014-04-18 14:39       ` Justus Ranvier
  
From: Adam Back @ 2014-04-16 11:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wladimir;  Bitcoin Dev

Big picture/mid-term I think air-gaps and zero-trust ecosystem components
are the only solution.  (zero-trust meaning like real-time auditability, or
type 2/type 3 exchanges based on atomic-swap, trustless escrow etc).

Need a mass-production and air-drop of trezors :)

There is one more problem address-substitution via untrusted network/user
and weak site with 1mil lines of swiss-cheese security app-store.  So some
kind of address authentication TOFU.  Aside from X509 bloatware which could
be extended from payment protocol to do that, I'd argue for a native simple
TOFU format like Alan Reiner's multiplier * base approach (where base is the
TOFU handle).  And/or something like the IBE address proposal (which gives a
bandwidth efficiently SPV queryable way to check if funds received).  Worst
case if weil-pairing gets broken it auto-devolves to the current status
quo.

Btw not to reignite the stealth vs reusable address bike shedding, but
contrarily I was thinking it maybe actually better to try to rebrand address
as "invoice number".  People understand double paying an invoice is not a
good idea.  And if they receive the same invoice twice they'll query it.

Adam

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:41:48AM +0200, Wladimir wrote:
>   On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Melvin Carvalho
>   <[1]melvincarvalho@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>   XP with a trezor would work fine tho?
>
>   Probably - but that's a very rare edge case. People that are security
>   conscious enough to buy a Trezor will not run XP. Also I don't dare to
>   say that there is not some way to sociaal-engineer the user with
>   malware on a compromised OS even with a trezor.
>   Maybe: for 0.9.2 add a warning message and push people to upgrade
>   (either to Win8.1 or something else), then in the next major release
>   0.10.0 drop XP support completely.
>   Wladimir
>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:melvincarvalho@gmail•com

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech

>_______________________________________________
>Bitcoin-development mailing list
>Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development




 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
* 
  2014-04-16  8:14 [Bitcoin-development] Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?) Wladimir

  2014-04-16  9:41   ` Wladimir
  2014-04-16 15:12 `  Kevin
                   ` 
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Melvin Carvalho @ 2014-04-16  8:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wladimir;  Bitcoin Dev

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On 16 April 2014 10:14, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Today I noticed that even my bank is warning people to not do internet
> banking with Windows XP.
>
> If it is no longer secure enough for online banking it's CERTAINLY not
> secure enough to run a wallet (for a node only it would be ok-ish as they
> have no keys to protect).
> Any opinions on what to do here? Just warn and allow the user to continue?
> Redirect them to a 'Windows XP is dangerous' message on bitcoin.org?
> (Microsoft uses
> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help)
>
> The drawback of dropping XP support completely would be that a lot of
> computers (especially in China and Russia etc) are still running XP, so
> this could cause the network to lose nodes.
>

XP with a trezor would work fine tho?

My personal preference would be a warning, and to direct them to a free
software operating system that they could upgrade to.


>
> If you're maintainer of other wallet software: how are you handling this?
> Are you going to drop XP support completely? If so, starting from when?
>
> Regards,
> Wladimir
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[|nested] 25+ messages in thread
2014-04-16 15:12 ` [Bitcoin-development] Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?) Kevin

  2014-04-16 15:28     ` Wladimir
  2014-04-16 20:42     ` Roy Badami
  2014-04-16 15:23   ` Mark Friedenbach
  
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-04-16 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin;  Bitcoin Dev

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com> wrote:
> I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume that xp is
> not secure enough?

Yes.

> What is this warning?

Windows XP is no longer maintained. Don't use such a system for
protecting your money.

> Who is issuing this warning?

Microsoft: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help

The suggestion here is to make Bitcoin Core detect when it's running
on Windows XP, and warn the user (they are likely unaware of the
risks).

-- 
Pieter



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 15:12 ` [Bitcoin-development] Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?) Kevin
  2014-04-16 15:20   ` Pieter Wuille

  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-16 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin;  bitcoin-development

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XP is no longer receiving security patches from Microsoft, and hasn't been
for some time. There are known remote exploits that aren't going to be
fixed, ever.
On Apr 16, 2014 8:15 AM, "Kevin" <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com> wrote:

>  On 4/16/2014 4:14 AM, Wladimir wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>
> Today I noticed that even my bank is warning people to not do internet
> banking with Windows XP.
>
> If it is no longer secure enough for online banking it's CERTAINLY not
> secure enough to run a wallet (for a node only it would be ok-ish as they
> have no keys to protect).
>  Any opinions on what to do here? Just warn and allow the user to
> continue? Redirect them to a 'Windows XP is dangerous' message on
> bitcoin.org? (Microsoft uses
> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help)
>
>  The drawback of dropping XP support completely would be that a lot of
> computers (especially in China and Russia etc) are still running XP, so
> this could cause the network to lose nodes.
>
> If you're maintainer of other wallet software: how are you handling this?
>  Are you going to drop XP support completely? If so, starting from when?
>
> Regards,
>  Wladimir
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing listBitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>  I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume that xp is
> not secure enough?  What is this warning?  Who is issuing this warning?
>
>
> --
> Kevin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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2014-04-16 15:20   ` Pieter Wuille

  2014-04-16 16:27       ` Kevin
  2014-04-16 19:43       ` Adam Back
  2014-04-16 20:42     ` Roy Badami
  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-16 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Pieter Wuille;  Bitcoin Dev

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On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail•com>wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com> wrote:
> > I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume that xp is
> > not secure enough?
>
> Yes.
>

It will quickly grow extremely insecure.

People will be actively analyzing patches to post-XP versions to find
security problems that are patched there, to see if they can be exploited
on XP.

Wladimir

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2014-04-16 15:28     ` Wladimir

  2014-04-16 16:35         ` Mark Friedenbach
  2014-04-16 19:43       ` Adam Back
  
From: Kevin @ 2014-04-16 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wladimir, Pieter Wuille;  Bitcoin Dev

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On 4/16/2014 11:28 AM, Wladimir wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Pieter Wuille 
> <pieter.wuille@gmail•com <mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail•com>> wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com
>     <mailto:kevinsisco61784@gmail•com>> wrote:
>     > I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume
>     that xp is
>     > not secure enough?
>
>     Yes.
>
>
> It will quickly grow extremely insecure.
>
> People will be actively analyzing patches to post-XP versions to find 
> security problems that are patched there, to see if they can be 
> exploited on XP.
>
> Wladimir
>
Should we then add an alert message to wallet installers such as, "Such 
and such will not run on windows xp?"


-- 
Kevin


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2014-04-16 16:27       ` Kevin

  2014-04-16 16:41           ` Chris Williams
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-16 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On 04/16/2014 09:27 AM, Kevin wrote:
> Should we then add an alert message to wallet installers such as, "Such
> and such will not run on windows xp?"

It's not really our place to police that ... plus it's perfectly safe to
be running Bitcoin Core as a full node on XP. It's just the wallet
functionality that people should be careful about. We're talking about
such a small intersection of people who are running XP, have systems
powerful enough to run Bitcoin Core, and use the wallet functionality.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 16:35         ` Mark Friedenbach

  2014-04-16 16:44             ` Mark Friedenbach
  2014-04-16 18:59             ` Kevin
  
From: Chris Williams @ 2014-04-16 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  bitcoin-development

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It may not be our place to say whether XP is secure or not, but if we say that we support it then we have to run test passes against XP as a platform, and if an XP user reports a bug, then we have to do something to address it.  So, it becomes a test and support issue, not a security issue.

That’s why it doesn’t make sense to support an OS platform that the original vendor (MS) no longer supports themselves.

On Apr 16, 2014, at 9:35 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:

> On 04/16/2014 09:27 AM, Kevin wrote:
>> Should we then add an alert message to wallet installers such as, "Such
>> and such will not run on windows xp?"
> 
> It's not really our place to police that ... plus it's perfectly safe to
> be running Bitcoin Core as a full node on XP. It's just the wallet
> functionality that people should be careful about. We're talking about
> such a small intersection of people who are running XP, have systems
> powerful enough to run Bitcoin Core, and use the wallet functionality.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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2014-04-16 16:41           ` Chris Williams

  2014-04-16 16:50               ` Chris Williams
  2014-04-16 18:59             ` Kevin
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-16 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chris Williams;  bitcoin-development

We don't support XP. In fact we don't support *any* distribution, but I
will assume you mean "provide a binary which runs on X." Can you find
any reference to Windows XP on the website? I can't.

On 04/16/2014 09:41 AM, Chris Williams wrote:
> It may not be our place to say whether XP is secure or not, but if we say that we support it then we have to run test passes against XP as a platform, and if an XP user reports a bug, then we have to do something to address it.  So, it becomes a test and support issue, not a security issue.
> 
> That’s why it doesn’t make sense to support an OS platform that the original vendor (MS) no longer supports themselves.
> 
> On Apr 16, 2014, at 9:35 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
> 
>> On 04/16/2014 09:27 AM, Kevin wrote:
>>> Should we then add an alert message to wallet installers such as, "Such
>>> and such will not run on windows xp?"
>>
>> It's not really our place to police that ... plus it's perfectly safe to
>> be running Bitcoin Core as a full node on XP. It's just the wallet
>> functionality that people should be careful about. We're talking about
>> such a small intersection of people who are running XP, have systems
>> powerful enough to run Bitcoin Core, and use the wallet functionality.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 16:44             ` Mark Friedenbach

  
From: Chris Williams @ 2014-04-16 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  bitcoin-development

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You’re right.  That’s a huge oversight.  I think any software product you’ve ever considered installing has a section that says

“Hey, we want this much ram on your system, this much disk space, this processor, etc”.

Otherwise, you’re just setting yourself up for a bad user experience from people with marginal machines.


On Apr 16, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:

> We don't support XP. In fact we don't support *any* distribution, but I
> will assume you mean "provide a binary which runs on X." Can you find
> any reference to Windows XP on the website? I can't.
> 
> On 04/16/2014 09:41 AM, Chris Williams wrote:
>> It may not be our place to say whether XP is secure or not, but if we say that we support it then we have to run test passes against XP as a platform, and if an XP user reports a bug, then we have to do something to address it.  So, it becomes a test and support issue, not a security issue.
>> 
>> That’s why it doesn’t make sense to support an OS platform that the original vendor (MS) no longer supports themselves.
>> 
>> On Apr 16, 2014, at 9:35 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 04/16/2014 09:27 AM, Kevin wrote:
>>>> Should we then add an alert message to wallet installers such as, "Such
>>>> and such will not run on windows xp?"
>>> 
>>> It's not really our place to police that ... plus it's perfectly safe to
>>> be running Bitcoin Core as a full node on XP. It's just the wallet
>>> functionality that people should be careful about. We're talking about
>>> such a small intersection of people who are running XP, have systems
>>> powerful enough to run Bitcoin Core, and use the wallet functionality.
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> 


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2014-04-16 16:41           ` Chris Williams
  2014-04-16 16:44             ` Mark Friedenbach

  
From: Kevin @ 2014-04-16 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

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On 4/16/2014 12:41 PM, Chris Williams wrote:
> It may not be our place to say whether XP is secure or not, but if we say that we support it then we have to run test passes against XP as a platform, and if an XP user reports a bug, then we have to do something to address it.  So, it becomes a test and support issue, not a security issue.
>
> That's why it doesn't make sense to support an OS platform that the original vendor (MS) no longer supports themselves.
>
> On Apr 16, 2014, at 9:35 AM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
>
>> On 04/16/2014 09:27 AM, Kevin wrote:
>>> Should we then add an alert message to wallet installers such as, "Such
>>> and such will not run on windows xp?"
>> It's not really our place to police that ... plus it's perfectly safe to
>> be running Bitcoin Core as a full node on XP. It's just the wallet
>> functionality that people should be careful about. We're talking about
>> such a small intersection of people who are running XP, have systems
>> powerful enough to run Bitcoin Core, and use the wallet functionality.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Okay, so we simply stop supporting it.  Should bitcoin pull support 
altogether?


-- 
Kevin


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 15:28     ` Wladimir
  2014-04-16 16:27       ` Kevin

  
From: Adam Back @ 2014-04-16 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wladimir;  Bitcoin Dev

Not to get snarky or OS elitist but as I understand it windows security,
even during its support period has been measured in low digit number of days
in the year when is NOT an outstanding known remote root compromise or
combination of remote user compromise + priviledge escalation.  Add in
phishing, watering holes, malware and the average windows computer is
probably compromised a dozen times over.  Apparently for sometime it was not
easily possible to secure it install boot - install OS, connect to network
to download security updates, IP range scanned and compromised faster than
you can patch it.

Adam

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 05:28:27PM +0200, Wladimir wrote:
>   On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Pieter Wuille
>   <[1]pieter.wuille@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>   On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <[2]kevinsisco61784@gmail•com>
>   wrote:
>   > I think we should get to the bottom of this. Â Should we assume that
>   xp is
>   > not secure enough?
>
>     Yes.
>
>   It will quickly grow extremely insecure.
>   People will be actively analyzing patches to post-XP versions to find
>   security problems that are patched there, to see if they can be
>   exploited on XP.
>   Wladimir



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 15:20   ` Pieter Wuille
  2014-04-16 15:28     ` Wladimir

  2014-04-16 21:10       ` Laszlo Hanyecz
  
From: Roy Badami @ 2014-04-16 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Pieter Wuille;  Bitcoin Dev

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 05:20:41PM +0200, Pieter Wuille wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com> wrote:
> > I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume that xp is
> > not secure enough?
> 
> Yes.

Do we need a similar warning for OS X 10.6?  The EOL of that one is
*far* less well known than XP (because of Apple's failure to
communicate product lifecycles).

roy


> 
> > What is this warning?
> 
> Windows XP is no longer maintained. Don't use such a system for
> protecting your money.
> 
> > Who is issuing this warning?
> 
> Microsoft: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help
> 
> The suggestion here is to make Bitcoin Core detect when it's running
> on Windows XP, and warn the user (they are likely unaware of the
> risks).
> 
> -- 
> Pieter
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 20:42     ` Roy Badami

  2014-04-16 21:29         ` Kevin
  
From: Laszlo Hanyecz @ 2014-04-16 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Roy Badami;  Bitcoin Dev

I think a warning like this is inappropriate.

There are many reasons to use an out of date operating system and high level applications like wallets need not concern themselves with the rest of the system.  Maybe the wallet can scan your browser cache and tell you to stop visiting somesite.com too?

It just sounds like some kind of behavior modification that's being discussed here.. not-so-subtly suggesting that users shell out money for a newer version of the operating system, just to use their bitcoin wallets in a 'blessed' configuration.  This actually sounds very similar to what happens with Apple iPhones.. they somehow manage to 'invalidate' the charging cables and accessories with every major software version.  One day an accessory is working fine, then after the update users get a behavior modification nag every time they use it, urging them to buy a new one.  Along these same lines, might as well put a warning about the registry keys needing to be cleaned, and maybe a 'shock the money' banner[1].

You guys all know how it works with financial software - there are many organizations using decades old software (and hardware) because they know its shortcomings, they've taken care of them in a way that works them, and they don't want to start all over just for the sake of having the newest version.

-Laszlo

[1] http://www.buzzfeed.com/adobe/obnoxious-banner-ads-that-everyone-remembers


On Apr 16, 2014, at 8:42 PM, Roy Badami <roy@gnomon•org.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 05:20:41PM +0200, Pieter Wuille wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com> wrote:
>>> I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume that xp is
>>> not secure enough?
>> 
>> Yes.
> 
> Do we need a similar warning for OS X 10.6?  The EOL of that one is
> *far* less well known than XP (because of Apple's failure to
> communicate product lifecycles).
> 
> roy
> 
> 
>> 
>>> What is this warning?
>> 
>> Windows XP is no longer maintained. Don't use such a system for
>> protecting your money.
>> 
>>> Who is issuing this warning?
>> 
>> Microsoft: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help
>> 
>> The suggestion here is to make Bitcoin Core detect when it's running
>> on Windows XP, and warn the user (they are likely unaware of the
>> risks).
>> 
>> -- 
>> Pieter
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development




 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 21:10       ` Laszlo Hanyecz

  2014-04-16 21:39           ` Mark Friedenbach
  
From: Kevin @ 2014-04-16 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On 4/16/2014 5:10 PM, Laszlo Hanyecz wrote:
> I think a warning like this is inappropriate.
>
> There are many reasons to use an out of date operating system and high level applications like wallets need not concern themselves with the rest of the system.  Maybe the wallet can scan your browser cache and tell you to stop visiting somesite.com too?
>
> It just sounds like some kind of behavior modification that's being discussed here.. not-so-subtly suggesting that users shell out money for a newer version of the operating system, just to use their bitcoin wallets in a 'blessed' configuration.  This actually sounds very similar to what happens with Apple iPhones.. they somehow manage to 'invalidate' the charging cables and accessories with every major software version.  One day an accessory is working fine, then after the update users get a behavior modification nag every time they use it, urging them to buy a new one.  Along these same lines, might as well put a warning about the registry keys needing to be cleaned, and maybe a 'shock the money' banner[1].
>
> You guys all know how it works with financial software - there are many organizations using decades old software (and hardware) because they know its shortcomings, they've taken care of them in a way that works them, and they don't want to start all over just for the sake of having the newest version.
>
> -Laszlo
>
> [1] http://www.buzzfeed.com/adobe/obnoxious-banner-ads-that-everyone-remembers
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2014, at 8:42 PM, Roy Badami <roy@gnomon•org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 05:20:41PM +0200, Pieter Wuille wrote:
>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Kevin <kevinsisco61784@gmail•com> wrote:
>>>> I think we should get to the bottom of this.  Should we assume that xp is
>>>> not secure enough?
>>> Yes.
>> Do we need a similar warning for OS X 10.6?  The EOL of that one is
>> *far* less well known than XP (because of Apple's failure to
>> communicate product lifecycles).
>>
>> roy
>>
>>
>>>> What is this warning?
>>> Windows XP is no longer maintained. Don't use such a system for
>>> protecting your money.
>>>
>>>> Who is issuing this warning?
>>> Microsoft: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/end-support-help
>>>
>>> The suggestion here is to make Bitcoin Core detect when it's running
>>> on Windows XP, and warn the user (they are likely unaware of the
>>> risks).
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Okay, so how about an autoupdate function which pulls a work around off 
the server?  Sooner or later, the vulnerabilities must be faced.


-- 
Kevin




 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 21:29         ` Kevin

  2014-04-16 22:00             ` Pieter Wuille
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2014-04-16 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

On 04/16/2014 02:29 PM, Kevin wrote:
> Okay, so how about an autoupdate function which pulls a work around off 
> the server?  Sooner or later, the vulnerabilities must be faced.

NO. Bitcoin Core will never have an auto-update functionality. That
would be a single point of failure whose compromise could result in the
theft of every last bitcoin held in a Bitcoin Core wallet.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 21:39           ` Mark Friedenbach

  
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-04-16 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Friedenbach;  Bitcoin Dev

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:39 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
> On 04/16/2014 02:29 PM, Kevin wrote:
>> Okay, so how about an autoupdate function which pulls a work around off
>> the server?  Sooner or later, the vulnerabilities must be faced.
>
> NO. Bitcoin Core will never have an auto-update functionality. That
> would be a single point of failure whose compromise could result in the
> theft of every last bitcoin held in a Bitcoin Core wallet.

Or, even accidentally, cause a hard forking bug to be rolled out (or
worsen one).

-- 
Pieter



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16  8:14 [Bitcoin-development] Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?) Wladimir
  2014-04-16  8:45 ` Melvin Carvalho
  2014-04-16 15:12 ` [Bitcoin-development] Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?) Kevin

  2014-04-17  7:39   ` Wladimir
       [not found] ` <CACKnu1prEkZb5L4bGeKfjHtW+1CLmAuYr2-OWq0z5z+SvxhLTg@mail.gmail.com>
  
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-04-16 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Wladimir;  Bitcoin Dev

Bringing the thread back on-topic:

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote:
> Hello,
> Today I noticed that even my bank is warning people to not do internet
> banking with Windows XP.
> If it is no longer secure enough for online banking it's CERTAINLY not
> secure enough to run a wallet (for a node only it would be ok-ish as they
> have no keys to protect).
> Any opinions on what to do here?

I think eventually multi-wallet support will make it so that a wallet
won't be created by default. Instead users would create-wallet, which
would also give them options like using a HSM (e.g. trezor) or
multisig secured wallet.  That would be a great point where, if they
elect to run and ordinary unsecured wallet, and the software detects
that the host is known-to-not-likely-be-secure it could whine at them
and direct them to a security best practices page.

Then you also avoid whining at people who never run a wallet or use a
hsm making the host security somewhat moot.



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
[not found] ` <CACKnu1prEkZb5L4bGeKfjHtW+1CLmAuYr2-OWq0z5z+SvxhLTg@mail.gmail.com>

  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-17  7:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ben Carroll;  Bitcoin Dev

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On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Ben Carroll <ben@q9y•net> wrote:

While forcefully dropping XP support would seem like a waste of time, and
> somewhat arbitrary.  If windows builds just stops working for XP, it just
> stops working, however I don't foresee that happening.  I would make a
> reasonable guess that the client probably would even run without fuss on
> Win2k.
>

The _WIN32_WINNT define that is used (0x0501) makes Windows XP the lowest
version that the software will run on. It would be trivial to bump this to
Windows Vista (0x0600).

But in that case the user won't get a helpful message, the software will
outright refuse to run. So I thought, maybe it makes sense to show a
message that XP support is going to be removed - which must happen sooner
or later.

The insecurity of the platform adds urgence to this. So I thought "let's
ask for advice on the mailing list".

But what I get is contortions into unrelated topics (what does auto-update
have to do with this?), paranoid banter about 'manipulating users',
diversions into other topics. Sure, there's a thin line between being
helpful and being seen as manipulative, but it's over the top to compare
this with in-browser banners. It could be so much as a one-time message.

But it's time to close this issue. I'll do nothing here. I will however
stop testing on a Windows XP VM myself.

Wladimir

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 22:06 ` Gregory Maxwell

  
From: Wladimir @ 2014-04-17  7:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Gregory Maxwell;  Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1228 bytes --]

On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com>wrote:

> Bringing the thread back on-topic:
>

Thanks.


>  On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Today I noticed that even my bank is warning people to not do internet
> > banking with Windows XP.
> > If it is no longer secure enough for online banking it's CERTAINLY not
> > secure enough to run a wallet (for a node only it would be ok-ish as they
> > have no keys to protect).
> > Any opinions on what to do here?
>
> I think eventually multi-wallet support will make it so that a wallet
> won't be created by default.


After the wallet split-off this will also be easier:

- Bitcoin Core Node
- Bitcoin Core Wallet

The node would be as compatible as possible with any OS in existence, but
the wallet can be more picky.


> Instead users would create-wallet, which
> would also give them options like using a HSM (e.g. trezor) or
> multisig secured wallet.


HSMs complicate this; I'm not even sure how this will work, are the Trezor
guys planning to contribute support for their device to wallets including
Bitcoin Core?

Hopefully by that time, everyone will have forgotten about XP already :)

Wladimir

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 11:06     ` [Bitcoin-development] mid-term bitcoin security (Re: Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?)) Adam Back

  2014-04-18 14:39       ` Justus Ranvier
  
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-04-18 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Back;  Bitcoin Dev

On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace•org> wrote:
> Btw not to reignite the stealth vs reusable address bike shedding, but
> contrarily I was thinking it maybe actually better to try to rebrand address
> as "invoice number".  People understand double paying an invoice is not a
> good idea.  And if they receive the same invoice twice they'll query it.

And that is certainly how BitPay works today, including the language used.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2014-04-16 11:06     ` [Bitcoin-development] mid-term bitcoin security (Re: Warning message when running wallet in Windows XP (or drop support?)) Adam Back
  2014-04-18 14:26       ` Jeff Garzik

  
From: Justus Ranvier @ 2014-04-18 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-development

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1631 bytes --]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 04/16/2014 11:06 AM, Adam Back wrote:
> Btw not to reignite the stealth vs reusable address bike shedding,
> but contrarily I was thinking it maybe actually better to try to
> rebrand address as "invoice number".  People understand double
> paying an invoice is not a good idea.  And if they receive the same
> invoice twice they'll query it.

"Invoice number" is still too coarse-grained.

If anyone cared about user privacy, then whatever was supplied to
users as an "invoice number" would be a BIP32 extended public key, or
something equivalent to that, which would allow the payer to create as
many unique addresses as they needed to avoid merging inputs.

Also, from a business accounting perspective it's broken and wrong to
assume a 1:1 relationship between payment transactions and invoices
anyway:

http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2014/01/business-accounting-and-bitcoin-privacy.html

- -- 
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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