Request for a new BIP number (and discussion): Improved HD wallet generation.

Request for a new BIP number (and discussion): Improved HD wallet generation.
2015-02-21 13:23 ` Adam Back
                   ` (2 more replies)
  
From: 木ノ下じょな @ 2015-02-21 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

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Hello All,

I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
wallets.

The method is a modification of BIP32, so if something is unclear or not
explicit, please assume it follows BIP32.

I am looking forward to any and all criticism and help with writing /
making the BIP more secure.

If some of my pseudo code / English is off I apologize, I am not good with
words.

If this is deemed worthy enough to be drafted into a BIP, I would
appreciate if someone could tell me what the overall step by step flow
would be.

Thank you, I will paste the link to the proposal below.
Jona

https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885

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=/vUJ
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-02-21 13:23 ` 
                   ` 
  
From: 木ノ下じょな @ 2015-02-21 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2371 bytes --]

Hello All,

I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
wallets.

The method is a modification of BIP32, so if something is unclear or not
explicit, please assume it follows BIP32.

I am looking forward to any and all criticism and help with writing /
making the BIP more secure.

If some of my pseudo code / English is off I apologize, I am not good with
words.

If this is deemed worthy enough to be drafted into a BIP, I would
appreciate if someone could tell me what the overall step by step flow
would be.

Thank you, I will paste the link to the proposal below.
Jona

https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-02-21 13:23 ` Adam Back

       [not found]     ` <1D26FD01-5BD7-4403-B5D0-142B576C7526@mcelrath.org>
  
From: 木ノ下じょな @ 2015-02-21 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Back;  Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

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Yes.

That is similar to an idea at FC15 (
http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_15.pdf) but instead of increasing
the number of keys needed up to m, and protecting against m-1 leaks. (so if
you have to give keys out to 10 departments you must store 11 keys, or 363
bytes, I have decided to leave it at 2 keys protecting 1 leak, and then
using convention to prevent calculating the master private key by requiring
all private keys AND all extended private keys (aka "nodes" in my proposal)
to be derived alone under their respective parents.

In theory this will prevent leakage of private keys from destroying the
entire HD wallet entirely.

Services like "Reality Keys" could be a perfect use case (he must release
private keys relating to the outcome, so he has decided against using BIP32
to generate addresses for the bets.

Any Cryptographers that would like to take a look at the math and see if
it's sound, I think I am properly breaking any linear relationships between
keys... but I would like a second opinion.

Thank you for your reply,
Jona

2015-02-21 22:23 GMT+09:00 Adam Back <adam@cypherspace•org>:

> Whats the objective?  Is it to require accidental disclosure of two
> private keys to compute the master private key?
>
> Adam
>
> On 21 February 2015 at 13:20, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona@gmail•com> wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
> > wallets.
> >
> > The method is a modification of BIP32, so if something is unclear or not
> > explicit, please assume it follows BIP32.
> >
> > I am looking forward to any and all criticism and help with writing /
> making
> > the BIP more secure.
> >
> > If some of my pseudo code / English is off I apologize, I am not good
> with
> > words.
> >
> > If this is deemed worthy enough to be drafted into a BIP, I would
> appreciate
> > if someone could tell me what the overall step by step flow would be.
> >
> > Thank you, I will paste the link to the proposal below.
> > Jona
> >
> > https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>



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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-02-21 13:20 [Bitcoin-development] Request for a new BIP number (and discussion): Improved HD wallet generation 木ノ下じょな
  2015-02-21 13:23 ` Adam Back

  2015-02-21 13:49   ` 木ノ下じょな
  2015-02-23  5:00 ` 木ノ下じょな
  
From: Pavol Rusnak @ 2015-02-21 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 木ノ下じょな,
	Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

On 21/02/15 14:20, 木ノ下じょな wrote:
> I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
> wallets.

Your proposal is missing Abstract and Motivation sections. Abstract
tells us WHAT are trying to achieve, Motivation tells WHY. It's not
worth to dig into technical details of your implementation until these
two questions are answered.

-- 
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol Rusnak <stick@gk2•sk>



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-02-21 13:34 ` Pavol Rusnak

  2015-02-21 13:52     ` Pavol Rusnak
  
From: 木ノ下じょな @ 2015-02-21 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Pavol Rusnak;  Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2483 bytes --]

Thank you for your feedback. I have written the Abstract and Motivation.

If my English is poor please let me know. Also let me know any other
comments or criticism you may have.

Thank you,
Jona

2015-02-21 22:34 GMT+09:00 Pavol Rusnak <stick@gk2•sk>:

> On 21/02/15 14:20, 木ノ下じょな wrote:
> > I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
> > wallets.
>
> Your proposal is missing Abstract and Motivation sections. Abstract
> tells us WHAT are trying to achieve, Motivation tells WHY. It's not
> worth to dig into technical details of your implementation until these
> two questions are answered.
>
> --
> Best Regards / S pozdravom,
>
> Pavol Rusnak <stick@gk2•sk>
>



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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-02-21 13:49   ` 木ノ下じょな

  
From: Pavol Rusnak @ 2015-02-21 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 木ノ下じょな;  Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

On 21/02/15 14:49, 木ノ下じょな wrote:
> Thank you for your feedback. I have written the Abstract and Motivation.

Much better. Thanks!

-- 
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol Rusnak <stick@gk2•sk>



 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
[not found]     ` <1D26FD01-5BD7-4403-B5D0-142B576C7526@mcelrath.org>

  
From: 木ノ下じょな @ 2015-02-21 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bob Mcelrath;  Bitcoin Dev Mailing List

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 11063 bytes --]

Hello Bob,

> And compromise of that longer key still compromises the entire wallet.

No, in fact I could give you any node (derived extended private key) or key
(derived normal bitcoin address private key) AND any node's extended public
key above them, and as long as the keys are generated within my
specifications, you can not derive the associated extended private key to
the ancestor extended public key.

If you think it still compromises the entire wallet, please show me in
pseudo code / explanation.

> Under what circumstances would anyone ever be passing around private keys
without your a,b?

I just added a Motivation section showing one example called Reality Keys.
They send bitcoins to Yes/No bet addresses and the result of the bet's
private key is revealed to award the winners via special P2SH scripts.
So they would need to give out "smaller" keys (aka normal private keys) and
it would be better to manage them hierarchically instead of just generating
millions of keys ahead of time and storing them on USBs or something.

Thanks,
Jona

2015-02-21 22:57 GMT+09:00 Bob Mcelrath <bob@mcelrath•org>:

> But this just makes the private HD key longer, effectively. And compromise
> of that longer key still compromises the entire wallet.
>
> Under what circumstances would anyone ever be passing around private keys
> without your a,b? The longer privkey is a wallet backup and has a reason to
> be copied. I can't think of a scenario where anyone would use or compromise
> the shorter privkey.
>
> On February 21, 2015 8:32:30 AM EST, "木ノ下じょな" <kinoshitajona@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> That is similar to an idea at FC15 (
>> http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_15.pdf) but instead of
>> increasing the number of keys needed up to m, and protecting against m-1
>> leaks. (so if you have to give keys out to 10 departments you must store 11
>> keys, or 363 bytes, I have decided to leave it at 2 keys protecting 1 leak,
>> and then using convention to prevent calculating the master private key by
>> requiring all private keys AND all extended private keys (aka "nodes" in my
>> proposal) to be derived alone under their respective parents.
>>
>> In theory this will prevent leakage of private keys from destroying the
>> entire HD wallet entirely.
>>
>> Services like "Reality Keys" could be a perfect use case (he must release
>> private keys relating to the outcome, so he has decided against using BIP32
>> to generate addresses for! the bets.
>>
>> Any Cryptographers that would like to take a look at the math and see if
>> it's sound, I think I am properly breaking any linear relationships between
>> keys... but I would like a second opinion.
>>
>> Thank you for your reply,
>> Jona
>>
>> 2015-02-21 22:23 GMT+09:00 Adam Back <adam@cypherspace•org>:
>>
>>> Whats the objective?  Is it to require accidental disclosure of two
>>> private keys to compute the master private key?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On 21 February 2015 at 13:20, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona@gmail•com> wrote:
>>> > Hello All,
>>> >
>>> > I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
>>> > wallets.
>>> >
>>> > The method is a modification of BIP32, so if something is unclear or
>>> not
>>> > explicit, please assume it follows BIP32.
>>> >
>>> > I am looking forward to any and all criticism and help with writing /
>>> making
>>> > the BIP more secure.
>>> >
>>> > If some of my pseudo code / English is off I apologize, I am not good
>>> with
>>> > words.
>>> >
>>> > If this is deemed worthy enough to be drafted into a BIP, I would
>>> appreciate
>>> > if someone could tell me what the overall step by step flow would be.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you, I will paste the link to the proposal below.
>>> > Jona
>>> >
>>> > https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885
>>> >
>>> > --
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>>> > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>>> >
>>> >
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>>> > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and
>>> Dashboards
>>> > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
>>> more
>>> > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations,
>>> FREE
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>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=190641631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> =/vUJ
>> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>>  !DSPAM:54e88938261511932039196!
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=190641631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>
>> !DSPAM:54e88938261511932039196!
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>> !DSPAM:54e88938261511932039196!
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>



-- 
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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-02-21 13:20 [Bitcoin-development] Request for a new BIP number (and discussion): Improved HD wallet generation 木ノ下じょな
  2015-02-21 13:23 ` Adam Back
  2015-02-21 13:34 ` Pavol Rusnak

  
From: 木ノ下じょな @ 2015-02-23  5:00 UTC ( / )
  To: Bitcoin Dev Mailing List



Hello All,

I have updated the algorithm to include b in the derivation of a and vice
versa.

In the comment section of the gist, jhoenicke kindly pointed out that a
derivation was not including b at all, so colluding derivation was weak to
1 leaked descendant private node.

I am on my phone, but once I get home I will write out how to compromise
the parent private node with two child private nodes and the parent public
node.

Hopefully writing that out will help give an understanding of any other
hidden tricks.

Sorry if a majority don't think BIP32 is a problem, but if anyone who has
interest could comment and double check the math, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Jona

2015年2月21日土曜日、木ノ下じょな<kinoshitajona@gmail•com>さんは書きました:

> Hello All,
>
> I have put together a proposal for a new generation methodology of HD
> wallets.
>
> The method is a modification of BIP32, so if something is unclear or not
> explicit, please assume it follows BIP32.
>
> I am looking forward to any and all criticism and help with writing /
> making the BIP more secure.
>
> If some of my pseudo code / English is off I apologize, I am not good with
> words.
>
> If this is deemed worthy enough to be drafted into a BIP, I would
> appreciate if someone could tell me what the overall step by step flow
> would be.
>
> Thank you, I will paste the link to the proposal below.
> Jona
>
> https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885
>
> --
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