PayJoin adoption

PayJoin adoption
2021-01-16  2:52 ` dev_f
  2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero
  
From: Chris Belcher @ 2021-01-16  0:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.

I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption

It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.


Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
quote here:

> you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
matter.
>
> The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
accounts to websites.

https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye

If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
adoption of PayJoin?


 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2021-01-16  0:07 [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption Chris Belcher

  2021-01-16  6:15   ` Craig Raw
  2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero
  
From: dev_f @ 2021-01-16  2:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chris Belcher, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion


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Hey Chris,

I assume that a major reason for the lack of adoption is the lack of visibility.
I personally first found out about PayJoin when using BTCPayServer for a donation
and being told by the site that PayJoin was available (https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/).
The wiki page you created is a good starting point. Bringing up the issue of implementing
PayJoin directly with the companies / in the respective software repos seems like it would
be a strong first step for greater adoption. Gets more eyes on it in general.
(Directly contributing to the software by writing an implementation is obviously the
most helpful, though clearly harder.)

As a second option, pushing merchants towards accepting Bitcoin specifically via
software like BTCPayServer, which already supports PayJoin, might be immensely
helpful when Bitcoin adoption itself rises.

Fitti

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Saturday, January 16th, 2021 at 1:07 AM, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
> 

> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
> 

> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
> 

> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
> 

> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
> 

> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
> 

> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
> 

> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
> 

> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
> 

> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
> 

> quote here:
> 

> > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
> 

> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
> 

> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
> 

> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
> 

> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
> 

> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
> 

> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
> 

> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
> 

> matter.
> 

> > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
> 

> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
> 

> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
> 

> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
> 

> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
> 

> accounts to websites.
> 

> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
> 

> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
> 

> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
> 

> adoption of PayJoin?
> 

> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> 

> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> 

> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2021-01-16  2:52 ` dev_f

  
From: Craig Raw @ 2021-01-16  6:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: dev_f, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion

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Hey Chris,

You can add Sparrow Wallet to the list for Sending :)

I think one of the barriers to greater Payjoin adoption is the need for a
server endpoint on the receiving side. Ideally, all wallets should be able
to conduct Payjoin transactions with each other. This would require a
different mechanism to exchange the PSBTs, but otherwise the specification
should need no amendment. Samourai has implemented their Soroban protocol
to do this over Tor, but as far as I know it's not yet documented.

Given Payjoin is fee efficient (much more so than coinjoin) and relatively
simple to implement, it appears to hold great promise in disrupting
blockchain analysis. I'd love to see a standard that wallets can adopt to
receive Payjoin transactions without a server endpoint.

Craig

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 5:13 AM dev_f via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hey Chris,
>
> I assume that a major reason for the lack of adoption is the lack of
> visibility.
> I personally first found out about PayJoin when using BTCPayServer for a
> donation
> and being told by the site that PayJoin was available (
> https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/).
> The wiki page you created is a good starting point. Bringing up the issue
> of implementing
> PayJoin directly with the companies / in the respective software repos
> seems like it would
> be a strong first step for greater adoption. Gets more eyes on it in
> general.
> (Directly contributing to the software by writing an implementation is
> obviously the
> most helpful, though clearly harder.)
>
> As a second option, pushing merchants towards accepting Bitcoin
> specifically via
> software like BTCPayServer, which already supports PayJoin, might be
> immensely
> helpful when Bitcoin adoption itself rises.
>
> Fitti
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>
> On Saturday, January 16th, 2021 at 1:07 AM, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
> >
>
> > potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
> >
>
> > bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
> >
>
> > already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
> >
>
> > BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
> >
>
> > I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
> >
>
> > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
> >
>
> > It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
> >
>
> > Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
> >
>
> > the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
> >
>
> > quote here:
> >
>
> > > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
> >
>
> > exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
> >
>
> > use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
> >
>
> > adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
> >
>
> > increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
> >
>
> > rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
> >
>
> > account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
> >
>
> > wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
> >
>
> > matter.
> >
>
> > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
> >
>
> > trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
> >
>
> > wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
> >
>
> > except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
> >
>
> > regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
> >
>
> > accounts to websites.
> >
>
> > https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
> >
>
> > If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
> >
>
> > the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
> >
>
> > adoption of PayJoin?
> >
>
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >
>
> > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> >
>
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2021-01-16  0:07 [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption Chris Belcher
  2021-01-16  2:52 ` dev_f

  2021-01-19 15:44   ` Chris Belcher
  
From: Lucas Ontivero @ 2021-01-18 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chris Belcher, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion

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Hi

Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a
good idea.

-----

Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit
transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not
using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not
so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they
are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins
requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX
is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21
uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an
exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address).
All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is
more or less true for many people.

Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by
default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to
spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it
should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't
require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable
slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all.

The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes
where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know
something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list
and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it
can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably
using a output descriptor you created to share with me).

Sorry for the long semi-random rant.

El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (<
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>) escribió:

> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
>
> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
>
> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
>
>
> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
> quote here:
>
> > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
> matter.
> >
> > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
> accounts to websites.
>
> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
>
> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
> adoption of PayJoin?
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero

  
From: Chris Belcher @ 2021-01-19 15:44 UTC ( / )
  To: Lucas Ontivero, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion

Regarding incentives, privacy is itself an incentive.

If your business suffers from being spied on (for example you're a
casino or p2p exchange, and regulated exchanges keep banning your
customers) then the cost of adopting payjoin is worth it. That's why I
expect and hope that p2p exchanges will be one of the earlier adopters.

While researching for the Adoption page I was surprised to find that one
exchange has already adopted PayJoin: a no-signup altcoin exchange
called sideshift.ai


On 18/01/2021 20:38, Lucas Ontivero wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a
> good idea.
> 
> -----
> 
> Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit
> transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not
> using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not
> so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they
> are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins
> requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX
> is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21
> uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an
> exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address).
> All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is
> more or less true for many people.
> 
> Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by
> default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to
> spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it
> should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't
> require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable
> slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all.
> 
> The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes
> where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know
> something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list
> and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it
> can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably
> using a output descriptor you created to share with me).
> 
> Sorry for the long semi-random rant.
> 
> El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (<
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>) escribió:
> 
>> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
>> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
>> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has
>> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
>> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
>>
>> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
>> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
>>
>> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
>>
>>
>> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
>> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
>> quote here:
>>
>>> you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an
>> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
>> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
>> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
>> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
>> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
>> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
>> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t
>> matter.
>>>
>>> The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
>> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
>> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
>> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
>> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have
>> accounts to websites.
>>
>> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
>>
>> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
>> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase
>> adoption of PayJoin?
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>