Minimum Block Size

Minimum Block Size
2015-08-16 16:52 ` Mark Friedenbach
  2015-08-17  0:30 ` Jeff Garzik
  
From: Levin Keller @ 2015-08-16 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

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Hey everyone,

as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone here
in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be
interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a
lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment.

Cheers

Levin

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-08-16 16:41 [bitcoin-dev] Minimum Block Size Levin Keller

  2015-08-17  0:30 ` Jeff Garzik
  
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2015-08-16 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Levin Keller;  bitcoin-dev

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Levin, it is a complicated issue for which there isn't an easy answer. Part
of the issue is that "block size" doesn't actually measure resource usage
very reliably. It is possible to support a much higher volume of typical
usage transactions than transactions specifically constructed to cause DoS
issues. But if "block size" is the knob being tweaked, then you must design
for the DoS worst case, not the average/expected use case.

Additionally, there is an issue of time horizons and what presumed
improvements are made to the client. Bitcoin Core today can barely handle
1MB blocks, but that's an engineering limitation. So are we assuming fixes
that aren't actually deployed yet? Should we raise the block size before
that work is tested and its performance characteristics validated?

It's a complicated issue without easy answers, and that's why you're not
seeing straightforward statements of "2MB", "8MB", or "20MB" from most of
the developers.

But that's not to say that people aren't doing anything. There is a
workshop being organized for September 12-13th that will cover much of
these "it's complicated" issues. There will be a follow-on workshop in the
Nov/Dec timeframe in which specific proposals will be discussed. I
encourage you to participate:

http://scalingbitcoin.org/

On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone
> here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be
> interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a
> lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment.
>
> Cheers
>
> Levin
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-08-16 16:41 [bitcoin-dev] Minimum Block Size Levin Keller
  2015-08-16 16:52 ` Mark Friedenbach

  2015-08-17  1:20   ` Patrick Strateman
  
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-08-17  0:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Levin Keller;  bitcoin-dev

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"minimum" an interesting topic.

- Traffic levels may not produce a minimum size block
- Miners can always collude to produce a lowered maximum block size, a sort
of minimum maximum



On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone
> here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be
> interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a
> lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment.
>
> Cheers
>
> Levin
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-08-17  0:30 ` Jeff Garzik

  2015-08-17 16:18     ` Jorge Timón
  
From: Patrick Strateman @ 2015-08-17  1:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

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The first question to answer here is simple:

What value would there be in requiring a minimum block size?

I see no value.

On 08/16/2015 05:30 PM, Jeff Garzik via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> "minimum" an interesting topic.
>
> - Traffic levels may not produce a minimum size block
> - Miners can always collude to produce a lowered maximum block size, a
> sort of minimum maximum
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hey everyone,
>
>     as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is
>     anyone here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If
>     so I would be interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas.
>     I am in favor of a lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of
>     thought at the moment.
>
>     Cheers
>
>     Levin
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     bitcoin-dev mailing list
>     bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
>     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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 permalink raw reply	[|nested]
2015-08-17  1:20   ` Patrick Strateman

  
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-08-17 16:18 UTC ( / )
  To: Patrick Strateman;  Bitcoin Dev

One could think that this could help with things like SPV mining, but
miners can just pay to themselves to follow the minimum size block
rule without risking anything.
As long as they have a singled matured satoshi they can just pay to
themselves with it as many times as they need in the same block.


On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:20 AM, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> The first question to answer here is simple:
>
> What value would there be in requiring a minimum block size?
>
> I see no value.
>
>
> On 08/16/2015 05:30 PM, Jeff Garzik via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> "minimum" an interesting topic.
>
> - Traffic levels may not produce a minimum size block
> - Miners can always collude to produce a lowered maximum block size, a sort
> of minimum maximum
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone
>> here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be
>> interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a
>> lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Levin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>