by Jach | 2026-03-14 10:48:28+00:00
What a strange post... The linked sl4 source (http://sl4.org/crocker.html) is short enough it could have been quoted in full. It's Yudkowsky's version, I think this is the first I'm hearing via jandrog's comment that it's not exactly faithful to the original (which I presume originated on an extropian mailing list). On the SL4 mailing list, people would sometimes join and note that they operated under the rules. Stuart Armstrong had an aside to such a declaration once:

"I'm not convinced that Crocker's rules are particularly useful
(rephrasing the same idea to make it more polite doesn't lose
anything, can be more convincing to the target, and will often
generate more insights in yourself than a curt dismissal), but it's up
to everyone to choose their approach."

I think that aside is part of the same strangeness and confusion as this post. Operating under the rules is something you do for yourself -- the "begging" that you're doing to other people is asking them to communicate to you in a manner that is optimized for information, not for being nice. The problem isn't necessarily that people dance around the issues (though that can and often is a problem), the problem is that they simply won't communicate the issues or other information in the first place, and so leave such out, especially if they can't figure out a nice way to say it. Also, if you are writing for someone who is operating under the rules, for you to respect their wishes that doesn't mean you have to be rude or omit politeness or be blunt, it just means you should include all the information you want to say, and not worry about it not being phrased nicely, though of course you can phrase things how you please.

To beg others to follow Crocker's rules is basically saying "I am tired of having to use delicate language and sometimes having to avoid talking about things for you, can't you just grow up and let me be lazy and direct and sometimes rude?" There are more sensitive ways to make such requests (and ruder ones too), it's probably better to use such methods if you want people to adopt your preferences in receiving information. It's also important to ask if people want certain information in the first place -- I asked a departing intern once (who sadly ended up not being very strong, at least compared to most interns our team had) if they would like some more candid feedback from me before they left, and they declined. That's fine. I think it's usually better to lead by example and just ask people to be direct if you notice them communicating to you in overly sensitive ways and perhaps leaving important things out, and link them to Crocker's rules if you want. Often the rules aren't needed and you can just create a direct and information rich culture to begin with, or in specific circumstances (e.g. code reviews) use short hand symbols like "Nit: " or "Blocker: " that compress all the niceties you'd otherwise be encouraged to say. (For me, most Nits themselves are things that are ok to commit but I'd prefer would be done differently and if I touch the file later I'll correct myself if the original author doesn't do it.)

A personal example from 12 years ago: after I was rejected after an onsite job interview, with such rejections notoriously (and for sound legal reasons) omitting many details about the precise whys for the rejection, I invoked Crocker's rules in my request for further feedback and actually received some more useful information than the initial rejection. "The particular role ... required more experience ... There was also the sense that the manner in which you had answered questions came off a bit rough around the edges ... We tend to look for engineers who are very curious, passionate, and large drive/motivation to learn more - it seemed we didn't get those senses from you." The last bit especially was kind of an oof, but it was certainly useful feedback that going forward I, believing myself to actually be curious and wanting to learn more (passion has always been a problem though), would need to make more efforts to show those traits.