by engeljohnb | 2025-11-24 03:11:46+00:00
> Man alive, I've already explained this multiple times, and you misread each and every time.

Actually, what happened was you explained once, I rebutted, and your reply is now "I already explained."

>You even postulate programming as something outside of art; a statement I have fundamentally disagreed with.

Is this seriously a point of confusion for you? So I need to spell out I meant "drawing and painting" because you aren't able to extrapolate from context?

>To me it's nothing but an imprecisely articulated, sweeping generalization constructed around the anectodal "evidence" that's your life (with an unknown sample size of people you've met or read about that might agree with you to some extent). In other words it's nothing but tedious fallacies, a thing oft observed in such discussions.

Observed experience and testimony from others with similar experience isn't fallacy -- it's valid evidence. You are choosing to ignore it because... actually, I don't know why my thesis is apparently so offensive to you.

> It's also a massive red flag; I at least would never be so presumptious and arrogant to make myself the yardstick and declare cocksure that one discipline will take longer than the other for some to me completely unknown reader.

Not myself -- please show me the place where I said my own experience is my only evidence.

> I know many a great artist who paints and/or writes but could not program their way out of a wet paper bag, let alone reach the same heights there as in their chosen medium of expression.

Sounds like you know artists that didn't have a reason to take the time to learn to program. That doesn't mean that time would be longer than it took to learn to draw and paint.

Up until this sentence I assumed I was talking to another person who does both art and programming. The fact that you have something to say about people you know but nothing to say about your own experiences suggests to me you're probably not an artist. Which means you're just running your mouth about something you have no experience with.

> So what's useful to you, and what might be useful to me

Oh, I realize now you're just new to internet forums, so I should probably explain that not every individual comment needs to have direct relevance to whatever your exact current pursuits happen to be to be a worthwhile contribution to a discussion.

> If one wants to find out which form(s) of expression is/are best suited for oneself, one needs to spread the wings and take to said form(s). How long that will take no one can say for sure

Sure.

> How long that will take no one can say for sure; therefore what takes longer if one gravitates to more than one form, no one can can make reasonably accurate predictions about either. Especially not without knowing at least a modicum of relevant information about the individual any advice is supposed to enrich in the first place.

That's where you're wrong. There are a lot of people that are qualified to estimate the general amount of time it may take to learn a skill to a certain degree. You're right that no one can tell the exact amount of time, but once again, show me where I claimed to know the exact amount of time it takes anyone to learn anything.

There are art educators that have spent decades teaching how to draw and paint. If you've seen literally hundreds or thousands of students over the course of decades, you know how long it takes to learn your craft. And some of these edu cators have shared their knowledge with us. For instance, Jeff Watts of the Watts Atelier has spoken about how long an artist needs to train before their skills are to a level where they can start to assist in teaching*, which is about ten years to be a "decent teacher."

Ten years of full time study to learn, according to a master who has been teaching for over 35 years. Are you going to lie and tell me it takes that long to get a job as a programmer? I can name more programmers than I can count on my fingers that got a job straight out of a four-year or two-year program. I've never met or heard of an artist that got a full time professional job with less than ten years of study.

> Hence, when addressing a general audience, better concentrate on giving detailed and sound advice on how to get better as opposed to shallow and often unapplicable generalizions.

Are you seriously suggesting a bunch of unsolicited technique advice would've been an appropriate response in a conversation about why the author of the article suggested programmers don't have a reputation for making good artists? And just in case it causes you further confusion -- the author clearly meant "draftsmen" when they said "artists."

* https://youtu.be/BlBnkNr_7ms?t=1767