by simianparrot | 2025-09-25 07:17:24+00:00
> Migration is not universally required and zero immigration might be possible and stable, given the right utopic circumstances.

First of all, I never claimed 0 immigration was my desired target. What I meant was that the ebb and flow of immigration changes with the other factors I mentioned, possibly all the way down to 0.

This is the first major point of contentment I have with most arguments that are for immigration: They are trying to find a permanent rule for an impermanent, changing dependence and requirement.

What I'm talking about is a _responsive_ and continuous analysis of a nation's capacity for immigration. You do understand this is precisely why legal immigration has all the rigorous steps involved, even here in Norway, right? You have to have a certain amount of money to sustain yourself. You have to get a job. You can't bring your entire family until they can also support themselves. You have to renew your work and residence permit in Norway every 1-2 years (depending on factors) manually, by applying for it and meeting criterial, until you've been here for _at least_ 5 years consecutively before we even allow you to apply for permanent residency. I have many friends who have gone through this process. It is there for very good reasons.

The problem is that we also lump asylum seekers, refugees, and illegal migrants into the "basket" category of immigrants. But that's a separate concern really to this topic.

You also mention birth rates, and then:

> (1) could magically enforce a spiking birth rate from around 1 to above 2.1 and (2) somehow could ignore the societal upheaval this would immediately cause and (3) somehow guarantee the same social upwards mobility to the new generation (which is not a given in capitalism) to fit into your society as perfect in-place replacement of the previous one

Why do you assume immigrants are no less of a challenge to point 2 and 3? Why do you think children born from the existing people of a country and culture are as much of a strain as entirely foreign ones?

> That's the point of a positive-sum game, immigrants don't just take away, they contribute too, that's why you need them in the first place.

This is true in many cases. Post-WW2, Europe overall was in dire need of an immigrant workforce because we'd lost so many of our working age men.

Let's look at Norway's statistics for employment rates of immigrant-background residents. This is the state statistical bureau, so assume no shenanigans: https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/sysselsetting/statistik...

There's quite a lot of unemployed immigrants. There can be any number of reasons why but given Norway's history and how well we treat immigrants of any kind, I don't think you can claim xenophobia or racism.

And for the topic at hand, what it shows is that immigration does contribute, but it also takes away.

> There is also no debate about the positive effects of immigration on economies. Trust me, not even the tiniest debate.

The positives are the talking point of the EU and mainstream media. But we are also all aware of them. Post-WW2 most of Europe had massive need for immigrant workers. Most of those workers returned to their origin countries after a while, some stayed.

To be very clear, I have nothing against legal immigration. But even that has its limits, which changes with time and many other factors, including how many illegal, refugees and asylum seekers we're also dealing with. On top of the other factors.

> My internal bullshit-meter peaked here. First, whatever "unwritten moral or ethical codes" guide you, I hope then don't pretend to be, or actively try to be, above the law. Any vague identity politics based counter argument is weak, because the law is the only code that matters.

Any society is built on unwritten moral or ethical principles, I really hope you're not truly this naïve that you don't understand that. There are so many things you can't explicitly write into law unless you want to make the most authoritarian brutal dictatorship on the planet.

There are no laws against speaking loudly on the phone while riding a bus or train, but it is looked down upon by society to do so.

There are no laws that demand you greet strangers or help your neighbors paint their house, or allow the neighborhood to take part in raising and reprimanding your kids when they play in common areas. These are the most basic examples but they are not values shared by everyone that comes here, sadly enough. But they are the results of unwritten cultural norms based on morals and ethics.

> Second, the cultural reference frame you life in and regard as "holy" is not static

I never said it were. Culture will always change and adapt. But the rate is everything. If it changes too fast there's no common cultural fabric that keeps a people function as a collective good.

> German "Gastarbeiter" are immigrant workers form all over europe [...]

I am fully aware. I already mentioned I have friends and family in Germany, why would you think I am not familiar with its history?

> The point here is, you, like many other right wingers don't see the time scales at play here

First off I don't identify as right-wing. I did vote right wing this year, but I don't vote out of alignment, I vote on matters. They happened the be covered by a right-wing party this year. But I am generally not very well politically aligned, and tend to land somewhere near the center whenever I take any political alignment tests. But it's not really important, because I no longer see being called right-wing as a negative.

I see the timescales at play though. And that's why I'm against our lax policies. Because I'm thinking ahead 20-30 years.

> Third, muslims with "counter ethical and moral views" still have to abide by the law. Like I said, that's the only code that matters.

It is not. Because we don't want to outlaw people's internal beliefs and thoughts. Law can only police actions, but not a slow degradation of societal norms.

I do not want Norway to become a muslim-majority state, for example. There are already enough such places in the world anyway, let them have that there. I am not against having muslims in Norway. I just don't want Islam to be any meaningful part of our cultural fabric. It is incompatible with my culture. Has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.

> Whatever muslim morals/ethics being incompatible with christianity is irrelevant if your only basis of morale and ethics is the law, which should be agnostic to any religion.

Woefully naïve mindset that is precisely what is being exploited in many parts of the west. Because all you have to do is to slowly increase the population of muslims until you get enough support to implement Islamic law as part of a country's law.

> Social mobility is a key element for social cohesion (and integration), which is independent from ethnicity. The problems you see are real but other, lesser fortunate people are not the ones who build this global system and are not the only reason your national problems emerged or increase, if anything, the opposite is true. I am not saying that migration is easy to manage or tolerating other cultures plesant, but don't reduce it to only that, be open

I agree. But the cold, hard reality is that we can't help everyone without it costing us everything we have. And then we eventually end up not being able to help anyone. It's a balancing act. It's not "nice", but it has to be done.