by tasn | 2025-04-16 13:36:49+00:00
> 1. Jews are not a majority in Israel and Palestine combined and Israel has de facto control over all of Palestine and they would describe it as area under their control rather than as a separate state.

Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005 to let them self govern. They used all of the foreign aid to arm themselves and built the weapons infrastructure they used against Israel during the October 7th attacks and since. Israel still doesn't control Gaza. It is however under a blockade by BOTH Israel and Egypt exactly because of them using imports to being offensive capabilities. They however have their own laws, own elections, own police, own everything except for an army.

Being under a blockade by a state doesn't make a region part of that state.

* The above was written as of October 6th, things are obviously different atm.

> 2. Non-Jews can never ever ever be allowed to be a majority of the voting populace in Israel, so that's why the ones in Palestine (under Israeli control, on the rez, so to speak) are not given any rights in the country that controls them. The Israeli Arabs would be stripped of their political rights if they ever outnumbered Israeli Jews and you know this very well.

Israel is a Jewish state by law. I don't know what the mechanism would be if there would ever be a non-Jewish majority in parliament, but it's a theoretical edge case. Jews are an 80% majority. Non-Jews are represented in parliament.

I think what's always missing from these discussions is what I wrote in another comment: the suggested alternative (Palestinian state) would be worse for Jews, Christians and Muslims in terms of rights. So it's not that anyone is suggesting replacing the Jewish state with something more enlightened, but rather always for something worse.

> 3. I'm not interested in any conspiracy frankly.

I wasn't saying you did. You responded to my response to someone using an old and tired antisemitic conspiracy.

> Sure. But I think these ones are disturbing because they make one minority ethnicity, often from abroad, the kings over all the others who live on the same land with the power to remove them from their homes whenever convenient (as happens in the West Bank daily).

This sounds scary when put it like this, but in practice, 50,000 Jews emigrated to Israel in 2023, and a similar number left. So it's not as if this law matters for the purpose of this discussion. Also, they are not kings, they are normal citizens like everyone else, including the Arabs.

As for the power to remove them from their homes daily: many (most?) Israelis are against the settlements. Though it's not the way you describe it. No one is removed from their home in the way you think about it (people forced to live their residence and a Jewish family moving in). Do you really think anyone with a sane mind would want to live in a vacated home in a Muslim village surrounded by the cousins of the displaced? It's much more subtle than that (but still not OK!). It's also not sanctioned by Israel, but in some times in its history (including nowadays) the government turns a blind eye or even encourages it.

Unfortunately the same way that extremist Arabs are allowed in parliament so do the right wing settles crazies.

> Jews are less safe in Israel than in Europe and America. (E.g. https://forward.com/opinion/536469/antisemitism-may-be-most-...)

This is an opinion piece from someone that lives in Los Angeles, CA. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Also, I've lived in Europe, the US, and Israel, and I can tell you that at least from my experience that's bullshit. Safe doesn't just mean death, it also means harassment and non lethal physical harm.

> But also, I don't think any country "deserves" to exist to right any wrong in the world. Countries force themselves into existence.

I didn't say that Israel deserves to exist because of that, but it already DOES exist, and it's within its rights to decide to be a safe haven for a persecuted minority.

> Israel did the same, often resorting to the exact same terror tactics (yes even the Haganah conducted military operations using civilian buildings as cover) they now bemoan the Palestinians for resorting to to establish their own state. Whether or not it is the only country for Jews is irrelevant to me. Many ethnicities will never have their "own" nation, and some have multiple, but that has little to do with whether I find the exalting of one ethnicity over the others to such a degree that the others must be made stateless and right-less to be good or bad.

I don't remember all the details of the pre-Israel wars so can't make blanket statements though from my recollection pre-Israel organizations always targeted military targets (indeed with civilian casualties). Palestinians are targeting civilians by stabbing kids, bombing civilian buses, etc. It's really not the same.

Additionally, from my memory of reading about history, I don't think the world (or Jews) were complaining that the Brits were hitting "civilian" targets that were used for military purposes, but today the world is against Israel for taking these "civilian" targets that are essentially just military bases. Israel is very careful about saving civilians in Gaza but there will be collateral damage when fighting people that hide in civilians area.

> It's not emigrating to their country it's movement within the same country. Again, the entire problem I have is that Israel needs to strip the people who live in the land it controls of political rights to maintain its ethnic minority led democracy. This is like saying the Native Americans cannot leave the reservations and live among Americans because their ancestors lost the wars against the Colonists.

I think this is the crux of the disagreement here, but they are not the same country. How do I know? There's a border, they have a Palestinian passport, they don't recognize the existence of Israel, they have their own police, etc. It's not the same country. So no, it's not like saying anything about the native americans. Though btw, the descendants of the Mexicans that fled California during the wars don't get automatic American citizenship.

> This is always the least convincing argument because it doesn't matter and it has nothing to do with how Israel must make the people who aren't Jews stateless and rights-less for its ethnic minority democracy to function. You can call them Plutons for all it matters, I care what Israel is doing that's wrong. I don't believe that a national identity that is "new" means anything about whether human beings should be denied rights solely because of their ethnicity.

I commented about it elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43704181

The problem is not that the national identity is new, the problem is that the national identity is "let's destroy Israel". See the other comment for more info.

Also as said above, it's not an ethnic minority, because they have a Palestinian passport, they are part of Gaza, not Israel.