because you're so knowledgeable a very crucial time i'm really anxious to you know hear from you what you think is going on and what might be done about this really dangerous situation seems to me i'm really good to see you know i always  past he's a distinguished professor of middle eastern history at the connecticut state university he's the author along with co author along with israel shock the great scholar israeli scholar who unfortunately passed recently of a book called jewish fundamentalism in israel he had written or was working i will find out in the progress a book on christian fundamental christians zionism and he's also had a long interest he tells me it is just we start to talk about anti semitism and an ism the relationship between the two and he's also very clearly clued into what's going on on this august nd of the year two thousand and six with all the things that are going on in lebanon in the middle the israeli palestinian conflict or the arab israeli conflict that situation got worse at the end of september in two thousand and then and more people have been killed in israel in palestine since then then in the conflict before that going mail all the way to forty eight i mean after they withdrew from lebanon outbreaks then not of violence immediately not of much violence but then that grew and it became something that's been called the nd intifada and then we had as you  recall those time periods for a couple years where israel went into the west bank when in the gaza and we had a good many people killed and many wounded this is the period when we've had the palestinian suicide bombers and then we've had all of the israeli bombing and strafing and killing and wounding of people and destruction of the infrastructure that existed so as i said from september th two thousand until today there have been more people killed and more people wounded in israel palestine in that conflict than in the whole time period from that from the time that israel came out of lebanon fully led that would have been that two thousand yes that's right let's say for the last six years that out there have been plans to well that goes back even further that's right but yes there is a good deal of evidence there have been plans made in plans allayed to be carried out at one point or another to go in worst period of hostilities in this overall conflict that we have been in since the beginning of the time the growth of hizbullah i've seen in the press popular press that i read an area where it was an outgrowth of the in the occupation of lebanon and it grew and the leaving in two thousand of israel was that something that there was necessity of them doing that or was it as they will say an act of good faith on their part what is the reality in terms of the leaving after sixteen years of the israeli military occupation particular southern lebanon the p l o forces right near and right on the lebanese border with israel israel was able to do that out of the palestinian leadership try to fight the israelis straight up and they were absolutely no match it was only a matter of days that they were destroyed then we know israel went all the way to beirut and then israel all went in with the idea of taking over and setting up a proxy government for israel in lebanon which didn't work the lebanese were far better many of them were far better at guerilla warfare than the palestinians have been and so after a period of time a year or a year and a half two years of guerrilla warfare where we would say one or two israeli soldiers would be killed or wounded every few days the public sentiment in israel built up to that again against being in lebannon and so then israel took out a good many of its forces from lebanon so that there were of course a few lebanese who worked with the israelis because they were opposed that the time to the palestinians especially but again israel took out most of its forces israel left in some forces that occupation continue to do as you said until two thousand and then israel took the rest of the soldiers out of the government of israel like to say well there was an understanding certainly the government of israel out of understanding that there would not be groups that would be near the israeli and then and there is little question almost no question that out there much of the arms came through syria there was always a problem of syria in lebanon also it's only kept growing in strength and so we even have have this outbreak of hostilities and there's been nothing like it in the past rime i mean take for example for one example the hundreds of rockets per day for many not all but many of the last few days hundreds per day that is bala has shot that have gone over and hit and i am down in  israel as far as high fat and yeah even beyond haifa well if we go back to the early nineteen nineties when we had desert storm the big news in this regard at that  was that saddam hussein was able to shoot a few missiles over very few three or four that hit scud israel scud that's right over the best at the time of the probably would have instigated the israeli bombing attacks in addition to the american bombing in fact upon iraq but the big news was that saddam hussein was able the send what was then called a psychological message to the israelis that you can be hit but they were only hit with three or four now we've come to the time period where they're hit with hundreds per day  countries surrounding israel have come through to the peace process opposed to that sort of thing but you also had an election in palestine among the palestinians where they voted in hamas they voted mammy and i may both  hezbollah say they do not recognize the legitimate right of israel to exist well which is back to what they were saying at the beginning of the whole process except it seemed to have been people were willing to you know king of the saudi arabia and others were willing to say ok they have the right but they were people that are say they don't so they're back to square one in terms of the anti zionist proposition from the yes they are military hyphen political hyphen social hyphen economic groupings yeah they do allow that our were that's right that are important in all that they've built up political support by providing social services health care education and a good many other things for the popular for  populations that need all of that needed a terribly in any care they have been at arab created yet so that's one part of the category right now in terms of what you were talking about well that terribly violent doc on the other hand growing out of great anger growing out of great anger on a violent in regard to israel per se on the other hand mostly sense hamas was elected in the power but even before there are a number of leaders in hamas who have said now publicly and i think this represents probably a majority of the hamas leadership they have said look if the state of israel returns to its nine hundred and sixty seven borders and if we are allowed to have our palestinian state and we have a palestinian state and then we can work something out in terms of the return of some palestinians who lost their property none of these things israel will accept but they say if that would be the case then they would be willing to exist with an israeli state of pre one nine hundred and sixty seven borders now do does hamas before we get  out do these hamas leaders say therefore we accept the legitimate existence of the state of israel no they don't use the term legitimate but of course that shouldn't be surprising during the whole of the cold war from the russian revolution in one thousand nine hundred and seventeen up until the end of the soviet union in the late one thousand nine hundred and eighty s no united states government said we recognize that the soviet union is legitimate been making here that is correct now in terms of his bala well we cannot say that the hezbollah leadership has gone so far as i've just said much of the hamas leadership has gone up but on the other hand hezbollah has become also politically part of lebanon no doubt we know there are hamas people in the government backa well they are probably thought they were going after him but he was off to capture you think they would love to kill him they would work without a doubt but the point is that he also has indicated look if israel did a number of things that they are not to that's right then even hezbollah might be ready to sit down and to say all right israel exists and palestinians have their state has well as a major concern with palestinians lebannon exists as lebanon is and we might all be able to exist in the in  this whole area he's made sounds along those lines he's made even during the worst of this fighting he's even made some of those sounds now can we say that we know for sure that that would be the case with him and with hezbollah can we say that we can we can definitely trust them fully and totally the answer to that is perhaps not but perhaps yes but to use a what's happening in lebanon on one thing we could say is that would stop at least for the time being and we'd hope that we that span the time bomb that would stop the killing that would stop the that would stop the wo but that will not disarm hezbollah or to make their refracts on the ground one that israel says they have to wipe it out in that kind of thing well and but if the fighting goes on the chances are that hizbullah is not going to be wiped super power it has power military power well organized well fought and i think they have something on the order of fourteen thousand tanks yet an armored killers let me say a word or two about that arrow well that means in terms of traditional weaponry traditional get weaponry it was just point out on c n n and other media sources last week it was traditional yeah military equipment and the traditional male traditional military he quit money and weaponry if we talk nuclear then israel at least at least to one is the number four in the world and we don't have exact counts of the stockpiles but at least number four do not have any count is there been any accounting are there other there have been there have been some estimates i think there should be if we say that we should have nuclear inspections of lots of other countries the question is why not israel why not why not do the real because israel says no and the united states backs that up but let's come back to military strength so israel is certainly many many many times stronger militarily than the whole arab world put together right that's definitely  there and then to top it off israel has the superpower of the world the united states standing behind it patting it on her back oh yeah bored and patting him on the back having made it into the strong military power and also making it stronger by the day let's not forget that within the last two weeks since israel came in the lebannon the united states has israel being a major military no question and they've had that i would submit they've probably been like that right from the get go and everything like that even though there's been touch and go a little bit from the beginning and you would be well for me you were that but you have this thing and with the go i can remember when they rolled into i thought i thought when mr arafat's was in ramallah and he was in his place there and they rolled down i think with four thousand tanks and they rolled it in they took the tank gun and stuck it right in the door and knocked out the electricity and at the end there was nothing i don't know if you're talking hamas seems to be not as well back to economically as the hezbollah i don't know i want to get that straight but there was nothing the palestinians could do as they rolled into ramallah and across there with four thousand tanks and now there was no lobbying seven or ability for any lobbying a rocket at haifa there was nothing the polish things could do well to be standing on the street with a stone in their hand or something but now hezbollah is putting rockets into haifa and into israel and instead of accepting as the israelis might like it to be that is in evitable the jitter missy of the state of israel the basic premise of ai which is that it is inevitable that that will be the superpower reality on the ground has been question in the minds of much of the arab perhaps  islamic and the broader world that does not necessarily cotton to the idea that the united states and israel with their two votes in the united states represents the international community does a lot of opposition to the superpower status of the both of them are right now and that question of legitimacy is in their minds and not necessarily in the trend of history and that legitimacy may be being brought into question by forces that are emerging in the world perhaps out of the arab  israeli arab islamic and broader world of the mass of the people who are not being served by the model that they play him to be legitimate are well let's pick two or three of the very important things that you just mean st of all the palestinians in situation of people in the whole area let us say that now we have one in three quarters move one million palestinians in the west bank two million let's say we have one  sixty percent now if we didn't know anything else about our significant lead a large group of people anywhere in the world except those two  factors fifty percent below subsistence sixty five percent or more unemployed we could conclude could we not there's a lot of trouble there oh now that's their status then if we take what you mention if we take what happened after the end of september through two thousand and one through two thousand and two when israel moved in with tanks and when the israeli defense forces worse kind of situation so that so that so the palestinians represented by hamas that's a situation that is most tragic now the situation in lebanon on up until the last few weeks and who would know how many israelis have come in and have destroyed a good deal again do you think they had that preset in their own mind and  let it happen in terms of the nine hundred and eleven truth movement in this country which is another issue but go ahead ok so hezbollah and lebanon that's a different situation  the although there happened to be and have been a large group of lebanese that have also been poor  status is pretty they're pretty up there in their own style not in the situation of the palace not palestinians are there then we have other little lebanese of course who have been economically above them but  groupings that are represented by hezbollah have been the poorer groupings but not in the same situation as the palestinians they seem to be bettered imported of his from iran  on what those supporting hamas i mean what is a mosque on they seem to be almost cured and they have very little economic capability to do things the same well they have especially now they have even less well if we come to that and we look at the united states certainly today we are at a high peak of and pag an ism to the government of the united states that we've never been at previous and that's all over the world that's that's and a great deal of the world certainly in the arab world certainly among the other parts of the world that have a large islamic population and i'm one but all of a one billion that's a lot of ads right but also even in europe in much of your oh yeah and throughout a good deal of an asia  other than areas in which we have the majority of the population being the majority don't have the majority of the population of being islamic are being international community doesn't agree with what they has billard and what he's talking about is the international community represents the united states led cabal of people around the world ten percent twenty percent of people doing well under the leadership of the that our system is legitimate in historical sense the groundwork is being set for questioning the assumption of the legitimacy of the american model and perhaps also the legitimacy and is thorkell sense of the israelis zionist model perhaps the  there's a widespread mass movement because we have a system in place that is not adequate to what the future requires in terms of serving all the people perhaps that may be too idealistic lee thinking but  wind in one phrase the pick of your terminology the american model quote unquote especially the model that we've had shaped by the bush administration well that's just the something then there's a lot working yeah now of course we of the united states or the end tag an ism to the u s government well that has been moved upward a great extent through an expanded by what the united states has the is doing i minded israeli minded people that are part of that me or con coalition that brought this drumbeat of iraq iraq iraq iraq iraq and so forth to what degree was it in flu it's by israeli  israeli interests in mind that they wanted to destroy did to destroy any kind of a possible a threat to the israeli hedger monic control of the whole middle east an area which some people think in terms of greater israeli with the superpower status status that they have in terms of establishing control over that whole area in a colonial way like we're going to beat the wogs into submission and take control to what degree was  con iraq thing israeli based or indirectly is strongly israeli influenced we have in your estimation well we have people who have so theorized i think that we don't have the evidence to say that the decision to go into iraq in two thousand and three and then the decision to do what the united states government has been trying to do in iraq i don't think we have the evidence to say that that was really something that was inspired in a major sense motivated in the majors or planned  go back into iraq they used body called the lunatic it goes back to the seventy's that was the lunatic fringe all right but now they're in control of things but to make to but to make the argument that  president george w bush and his of ministration then backed by congress right fortunately iraq decided to go into iraq a few years ago and and stay and do what has been done to say that that was all because of a concern about israel not to say it's all a serious part of a collaboration between two countries that had a similar view and it can relate to tied up with design as view of a greater israel their super power they can control of from the as the israeli government is concerned and i think this has been the case will for most of the time that israel has been the state for certainly certainly different than the union of south africa it's not based upon something racial but it's based upon this well it's based upon the concept that was put by theodore heard so who've the concept being an absolute theory of anti semitism right we've got to talk about all right that is the say  and i think this is the heart of what you've been researching this actually and i'd say semitism antis i i just wrote of i just wrote a long article that's going to be a chapter of a new book might be worth talking about in the open well ok but let me f r right i'm sorry go ahead this i think is the heart of this conflict george w bush has said in the last two weeks why we the root of we need to solve the political the political zionism of theodore hurts all it's based upon an absolute theory of anti semitism that is the say jews have been in the past at have been in the past and or are being in the present and or will be in the future persecuted in all nations states where in they are a minority therefore and thereby so goes the argument jews need a nation state of their own in which they start out as right hopefully of the residence but if not them of the citizens who control the state and they remain so now that's the absolute theory of anti semitism that's been legislated into the character of the state and so the state therefore in the law there's nothing above the law and no constitution in israel by law that state grants rights and privileges to jews not granted to non jews even the ones who are citizens of the state that's the heart of bhutan find they do that and that's what makes the ville so analogous and so that means it is an apartheid state in a sense least an agnostic but it's based upon the this concept religious for some ethnic cultural for others it's based upon this theory of absolute and some of the now that's something that might be well to be addressed that kind of thing because you have that and i can remember and i want to thank that off camera will do it on camera i want to thank you enormously for having the range to make sure that i was able to have a chance to meet israel shock he was a grand gentleman a grand man million three thousand years and and he said and he addressed the idea of anti semitism in a way that was really startling to me if i may and i want you to set me straight because the anti semitism premis of mr her soul or of the jewish thing and if someone were to criticize israel if they're not jewish they will be called anti semitic and if they are jews have a call to hating jew i mean so that's the thing that comes back to anyone who criticizes israel and so forth and he said that anti semitism was something that they said is been part of them since that he asked for a couple one thousand years when they were the victim the gods decreed to leave because of their stay but  they were living among people that had local warlords and that sort of thing they were a little bit isolated from the community that was there these taboos from those devilish community had warlords it had a certain amount of sway that warlord does your or the people that some control and the israeli people have been scholarly or there'd been a tommo to study that they had some capability and many of them not all of them a lot of them were instead olds and things like that but many of them became very gifted able to serve the interests of the of the local warlord as your local landed estate or some thing and then if there was an uprising again and then they would serve as a bailiff and as tax collectors and things like that lived pretty well by and large a great number of them then if there was a uprising against that local warlord movie of another warlord or his mafia gang or whatever then it would be directed the hate to be directed at the jews who had served as collaborators to that warlord who was overthrown is there anything to that or what is the source of anti semitism other than the true of the prescription the scenes through made by heard some of the others that is something genetic in the genes of the rest of the human society they're going to hate jews because maybe like mr bush says they hate freedom or something but what is the source of the anti some semitism that is manifest over the history and is it anything to do with this idea that they had served a local interest they are now serving the interests of the united states of america united states of america like rome is being hated by a great number of people the world and if that changes that namak changes they're going to be a lot of anger directed at the people who set up the state of israel and certainly do not have anywhere near a clear and definitive answer to the question of why anti semitism has remained what they're doing so or those who had a port what they're doing that's right in essence we have a good deal of theorizing about this if we take jews themselves yeah  i would say that the analogy to something that is not really been answered definitively is the question of who is a jew or what is a jew i have a very good friend who  way we can say the same in a sense about anti semitism although we know that it's existed sometimes there are a number of people who exaggerate on it terribly in terms of it it's a political dialogue that's right but sometimes the holler is there a holocaust of the leading example sometimes us about exaggerated i mean that was almost genocide in in that part of the world but a lot of it is really in depth and we should try to go into that sometime but i'm saying we have today one important development of all of this is as you have inferred and suggested one important development is that anti semitism has been used by too many not all but too many israeli apologist and israeli propaganda us to attack any criticism whatsoever of the state of israel right the idea is as you suggest night and then it applies to a good many others as well who have backed away from being critical of even oppressive israeli policy used they backed away from that because of the threat of being called an anti semite that is let me understated most unfortunate most unfortunate and very prevalent in terms of the current situation and so it and should be should be addressed now and oh what does it say one of the things is that the mr amount of john i can't pronounce it and iran follow the president is the president of and  it represents that that now you've got your bill with every school bond and children killed in lebanon the anger is growing hezbollah is now at tacking the idea of israel is it possible that the legitimacy of the state that zionism was in a historical sense a wrong idea the establishment of the state of israel was a wrong thing a bad thing for the jewish population yes and that it ought to be able to put forth rather than that being some sort of holy writ or some principle that camp why are we the united states of america is so tied into that idea which is led to so much trouble in the world support our tax dollars going to buy apache helicopters and all these kind of things that run that why are we so into that and why don't we begin to question is it in our national interest to follow this zionist notion that was the crackpot idea  few people radical people who did something and took over in many people's mind the spirit of judaism mock the idea of moshiach that sort of thing and that we supported and why are we allowing them and who is it that wag who's the dog and who is the tail when it comes the relationship between the united states and israel and shouldn't that question be debated without being called anti semitism medic being thrown at it and no political power be able to gain in this country and why isn't it and maybe it should be and what do you think  e good thing about you harold the good thing about being on this program who's you bring up a number of fascinating terribly important significant issues sometimes  says the arabs did not do the holocaust the germans did give them bavaria no i do it well that's that has a certain a lot older i'm not saying everything he says is raul would take zionism is something negative for jews and non jews ally and the world i think that we should not have an exclusivist jewish state which is what severe problem oh but i'm sighing but yes of course saw my answer is that we should have instead of those of a jewish state that's a zionist state we ought to have a state that assistance and the legitimacy of all say the american model the washington consensus is in adequate to what the future requires jews may have been a service by so associated with that group like they did with warlords in medieval russia and that that is not they will be able to be the means by which the world intellectuals will be able to effectively challenge the assumed legitimacy of the american system so we might bring a system that's going to work for everybody because the system in big but again let me underline and emphasize that the heart of the arab israeli conflict which has been a major conflict now for almost sixty they and we had a state as many israeli jews are growing numbers of israeli jews still a minority are beginning to say if we had to if we had a truly democratic state there that guaranteed at least in law as i've said before equal rights and equal privileges for at least all of the citizens then we would have not only off far better situation we would have opened the door and gone through with iran towards a peaceful resolution and to a model that's worthy of emulation back into the world and we don't have it now that's for our right good and that's something that we have to do and this may be in a certain sense there weans by which i think