i welcome very very much so good to see you and again in the audience welcome very much to conversation and i are privileged welcome to the program ramsey clark who probably need no introduction to a great number of the people in new york or intellectually curious and concerned with the human condition he was a former attorney general of the united states of america and he's been an advocate he's an attorney been an advocate for many of the least among us on a world scale both nationally and on a world scale for a long and distinguished career for which i thank him now and i also i'm very pleased to be able to welcome ramsey clark welcome very very much is an honor to have you on the set to be on the show good to be on this program  practice type of television and we need more of it thank you all over the country as democratically oriented and so forth and you've had such an alliance for the people exactly those words have me words do have meaning well but we want to just jump right in as it were on this march th two thousand and eleven about the situation in northern africa and particularly the country of libya that we both had some association with and i wonder maybe we could just  talk to that issue what's going on there's something very major going on on this planet now with they can easily be egypt libya and all that what do you make of it all and let's see if we can try to put it in some historical lee meaningful perspective of its meaning on this march th two thousand and eleven well the most important thing in the long run is the long awaited uprising of the arab i mean our our economic relationship and egypt's been one of the great tragedies not of the money went to the people you know went to the military and the corruption  the nd highest aid program and in the world of the united states and the uprising is just wonderful in human terms yeah it's dangerous because powerful capacity for violence oppose it including united states and particularly if it gets to where it's trying to really fulfill the cries for an abstract notion like freedom or democracy or democracy they're both very important really about  bahrain with everything we have we'll try to hang on to libya because of its oil there is a small country i mean it's it doesn't have a rd the number of people that coat of are has more violence in cote d'ivoire right now more people being and sixty nine to ninety two percent literacy and all the other statistics kept by the cia and that are equally commendable in terms of the progress that has been made in the brief forty years his justification if you want to call it that on the bombing of a disco in berlin where a g i american soldier was killed and some woman was killed and i think she's a north african actually and others were damaeus a lot of damage and he ordered attacks on libya and killed his adopted daughter ana but it did more than that  first you have to look at the attack here's one death and no trial no time for trial no real investigation whatever no he orders and not based on rumor actually we don't know what they what he was a major u s air base in england and no country in western europe which would give us overflight they had to ride around spain they had found over the ocean and land it can come in through the straits of gibraltar gates of hercules and come in over the mediterranean killed and that's the best we can say but there really hundreds are at least four hundred people killed in my opinion in tripoli i went over there within days st visiting people in hospital didn't have enough hospital capacity for burn cases and they  scores of people with serious burns in the rome zurich in vienna and the families were there crowded around the bed when they could get in and  apartment house behind it there and that thing was totally destroyed a family of seven lived on the top floor six were killed and one young boy  no they called it we sued margaret thatcher good u k because she authorized the the use of the flight you can't just bomb a country on her well  he called them the mad dog of the middle east and very incendiary language and they seem to have a strong brief against him well we have to face up to our responsibility  we were saturated at night with the horror of what's happening to civilians in libya but we took what we did to civilians in libya defenseless civilians with sophisticated modern aircraft flying thousands of miles so it's just saying the difference in our attitude toward that country then in the other cases of egypt or tunisia and so forth it seems to be libya and his position historically and otherwise that gave such  grief to so many of the geopolitics sions might make one wonder because it seemed to be he had a great deal of concern mandela had a very close relationship with him he seemed to represent the liberation movements of the time most of the american indian tribes could relate to him people who had been oppressed a good deal of the black community of the world could relate to him because he was an anti imperialist attitude in the world that is hard to swallow hard for for an arab leader to be because there's only a few more half a dozen countries that are arab maybe seven or eight one hundred and forty countries maybe had been on our state sponsor of terrorism this about seven it's the height the highest number of countries ever on the list met you didn't have sovereign immunity here in the in our court you could sue for you can sue libya here in the united states court settled and two thousand and eight at the command of the united states government for a one billion three hundred million and then they allocated the three hundred million to the victims s government agreed to take three hundred million which is just about the same figure that we sued for the deaths and and gave it to libya to pay to victims of our nine hundred and eighty six bombing is that what happened years later they come back and pay three million dollars dollars three hundred million dollars to these victims from an oil settlement in two thousand and eight in order to  that is mr kraft he took a different tact and he came and he had these crippling sanctions that have voted down on them it was very very difficult for them to function and so there was a change in two thousand and three and one wonders how many we get these statistics education all of the statistics housing here and he had this idea of a job he had an ideology had a view of what they got how the government should be organized they had suffered terribly  holocaust under the italian fascist particularly as many as a rd or perhaps a half of the population had been ruthlessly decimated in the holocaust by the italian fascists and they had suffered and they were very very poor when the rev they made all of this progress there must be in logical terms you'd never get it from the press reporting going on now but there must be a lot of people who have either directly benefited or could see the validity of the way in which they tried to organize that is what he called a job mario people's congresses that participatory democracy and involving the people of the country in the ownership of the capital assets the private sector activity rather than only wage earners you had signs  partners not wage earners which is an idea that's confronting the world now as the economic meltdown of two thousand and eight and mr cain saying that you're going to have problems with technological displacement of labor  their maturity now with cybernetic development that we he was presenting a pattern that present a different political organization in economics which involves ownership on the part of the masses of the people in the technological base of the capital base so productive that matter which i would be an ideological policy makers pay no attention if you like that you don't think so not even somebody somewhere what did they i mean i'm not sure because they wouldn't because  i've thought about that whether or not they could foresee or see that he might add an ideological sense when they've got all this power and so forth to make any sense of that but you could make a comparison between the united states of america and seven hundred and seventy six with the feudal order based upon the fear that what we're doing now say our anger our show of anger by the government is if you if you look at our history we didn't care about those people we bombed them in eighty six we deny them gadhafi wouldn't know it from the news that we're getting now he is almost kangas khan incarnate or just the news for going and what's being passed for that within the media just assumes that all the people from population of the countries in tripoli now and you haven't seen i mean even you watch c n n or u s television and you see people on the streets there the shops are open and  shooting innocent people here's saudi arabia's many outcry about saudi arabia saying if you uprise if you get in the streets and demonstrate we're going to shoot you wouldn't they do that in bahrain you got the th fleet right there and you got them tied right and that's the big e are reporting that and i would really welcome your understanding from a legal perspective how do we differentiate between a country because what it seems like you have this very deep seated snoozy thing they never did between a conflict between peoples within a country that are in what is like a civil war as opposed to an uprising and how do we deal with that kind of a kind dition because it seems to be we may be in for a civil war in libya between the east and the west we had one here in the united states between the north and the south a war is a different thing then a uprising can you put all of that in some sort of a legal perspective you've got that doesn't mean you don't have thousands of people that would like to have a different government right but then particularly in benghazi in particular on the east side there and protect and down in the in the desert some or south where very few people actually live operate out so much but it has a huge territory yeah and also they've gone from zero near zero literacy to ninety two percent and all the figures are that way there's got to be support among the libyans for what he has done drum to attack terribly so attack libya you know not just what he's done it's what's happened to the country i mean the country got its own life and education there far exceeds in quality and accessibility education it's primary and secondary and college level of any country in africa oh no doubt the income level is and it's spread out among the people it's not just a few rich people you see that spread out among the people is something in a democratic you know that's something that is not it's hard for people who don't do too good a phone call i'm to buy this revolution is going on there when is it going to come to the united states of america to question the fact that all the capital assets are owned by a tiny plutocratic class the capital assets are increasingly responsible for production in every political entity everywhere including the united states it's getting down down towards just one percent or benefitted by tax cuts and so what is plutocratic everywhere and what they're going to crack is they're going to always has happened is because no one will this will this thing ever come and read down to the united states and something other than this crazy the party composition this coming out is it going to come in effect when will a revolution come to the united states of america if it ever  within what's going on in terms of real democracy be having the meaning we just assume historical legitimacy we are the carriers of history in a legitimate way soviet union imploded were the  different so i we're not going to have an armed revolution we're going to have a democratic revolution if people ever wake up but the probability of an armed rotation here is even with all of our guns which are we have a revolution in terms of crime but  and we don't have the courage to face up to the fact that guns are responsible for a lot of the be a lot less violent death in this country if we do somebody's gun are we ever going to have a the economic policy that distributes equally or in our propre a way intro to what the future don't vote except in presidential elections and a few other elections at times so the capacity to control action is extreme yeah right right and you look at look at the local the local elected officials and most on the is heartbreaking to see that decision i think it can survive but what is going on in vat it in and so forth now where they're going to try and do away with collective bargaining and all the things is one hundred and fifty that had meaning to bring being a wide middle class is being challenge from the right and so forth in this country and it's coming out the implications in terms of democracy and would use that term is a big one mr mortimer adler would do is the last or democracy i think it's very difficult to have a democracy if you don't have economic justice or economic system that we don't have we're connected to it and that's one of the things that we have some sort of a qualitative transformation on this planet particularly got weapons that are species lethal i believe they are at a modeling level it's a new accidential reality and we don't seem to have a leadership that is giving or any view of what the future requires for the interrelated system that ad campaign to wheaties rather than conflict what was his name the one the one who talked about the hidden persuaders vance packard how easily they can manipulate the population through the media and that's but back again to libya so what i asked you i asked you this how do you differentiate between a country that has an uprising and one that is at war how do we deal with at war situations within a country we had a great civil war led by our forces by brad lincoln who was going to preserve them all of this we fought six hundred thousand people were killed in that there's a difference when there's a war and then you have a war shaping up is that a war in libya the shaping up a civil war how do we distinguish a civil war from an uprising and that sort of thing but i think more demonstrations i don't think the definitions are important i think ok what you need to do is analyze what's happening there thank you thank you and they've got a number of tunis in tunisia and libya on the west of tripoli they're fighting going on here and people say oh to come in with airstrikes or or the rest again a time no fly zone now they're going to do they sent ships there nato is talking about doing stuff they're all getting everywhere they shot some in cairo yeah that's very worrying you know what is the implication in terms of the situation with israel if you get access to the people in the street that's still a big issue there and so forth in the middle east and then i wonder there's another side bar want to get but there are areas where he can't order something and have it done ok now what happens when but he did and so the embassy staff here at the united nations i had done a program we had last monday with the  gentleman who is the and he has come on with others there who say mr khadafi should step down and mr gadhafi is still the leader of the country can make a decision you're familiar with the structure of the u n and in the face of that he khadafi has dismissed him and is appointed as his replacement ali trache somebody we both know in much of the world knows and as i understand from the reading of the b b c and so forth the united states refused to give him the where does all that stand where is the authority to lie in something like the u n can one group that the americans disapprove of not be allowed to come to new york even though the government or just a matter of how you frustrate them because most of the airlines coming in are from countries that we can and you can keep them you can frustrate them it's what you can do could you find a good tracheas is a man of international renown he was president of the prompted delaying thing or is that a harassing or is there anything in the way the structure of the united nations is an agreed to by treaty and so forth that they could not state government can take that position well i'm a lawyer you want to know legally they have a right to do it ok how could the un function if united states you control who can come to headquarters then why is it that it's coming over the wire that he won't be able to come because he doesn't have a visa why and why this drumbeat there and what does it mean in terms of geopolitical realities or oil interests whatever that there is this animosity this developing around this country of libya and that we're taking and i don't mean to be redundant but you know how can they do that i don't understand how they can do that and have it stand i mean you know it seems to me like you said it would be the undoing of the whole institution of we're going to do away with  what has to be sought is peace and what has yet sought is respect for human rights and the united states has got to treat situations equally just got to start looking at saudi arabia like it looked at livi and it's got to start looking at the running terrorism on our show if you create only torment people so long before they start trying to retaliate the act of terrorism is an act of someone powerless person but why are we doing that why are we acting in that way we said before a little bit a lot of people with the vision thing or something what are we doing in afghanistan what did we do in iraq we voted sanctions five hundred thousand people killed why no fly zones we raided bombed iraq shock a in the hell are we doing in terms of the united states why wouldn't there be people that would be very upset with our idea of how our idea is a legitimate everybody we're going to kowtow to us or else they'll get bombed or something i mean how can  yesterday from our domination by a james joyce has a line i really like to quote is that history is a nightmare of injustice from which we're attempting to awaken will we ever hear the alarm clock will we ever awaken is there any room for vision about some alteration in the zeit geist or in the spirit of the age or the technological capability when you get the weapons that are species lead so i believe that's true still that there are species leads that they would buy they would eliminate the entire human species i don't know if you have any chapter and verse on the modeling of that but i believe that's true that's a new existential reality even if there's something to that it's madness yes or even even nuclear weapons or madness yes or yes and nuclear weapons are a more serious problem right the moment but we've been muddling through for two whole years i was billions of dollars on that kind of stuff for a long time it's just spending a crime yeah which means it can't have a peaceful use well but we've been muddling through for two hundred thousand years with an unjust order from feudal orders to errol's and whatnot and we've never had a really just system or something do you think there's something in the spirit of this age as a gas i'm off we did a program with he said this is the defining generation in an evolutionary sense we've come to the point after two hundred thousand years ten thousand generations we've gotten to a point of qualitative change that will introduce either we could destroy the evolutionary process of consciousness in this particular universe or there may be something like is used to call liberation on a system scale for everybody and the ecology that is also characteristic of this particular moment well maybe that's all off into another realm of thinking but i think some of his eye does help us deal with this with the immediate but yeah certainly we are in a situation where events are largely in control that we can't despair we can't wander off into belief that we're going to exterminate a whole species or some who may exterminate life on the planet if we don't do something about that double warming yeah but for me well if i may i don't think global address now to save lives it is absurd if you're going to take lives if you do it and there are other places where more lives are being lost right now and are being lost there that you are then you can say they're so we have to what we've done to iraq is unbelievable what we're doing to i know it's just it's got i'm sorry can people say well saddam hussein is such a terrible man but he and he you know he killed so many people but he would be he couldn't lay a glove on how many people we've killed and there are responsible directly and indirectly for deaths in the in iraq just nobody paid attention to the sanctions as you mentioned before which took a one million five hundred thousand five hundred over five hundred thousand children more than five hundred that we had to protect the commies against the commies now it's the is it now is the it's a little islamic it's islamic which is the big bugaboo that we're fighting this guy now and the senate is just going to have a b over the palestine which is still a major question and all that so where do you think it's all going from here what do you think actually will happen in the days weeks months years ahead coming out of this that will continue until it succeeds if we're around that long it doesn't mean there won't be setbacks and clearly in any country even egypt with all the exhilaration that we had from driving mubarak out the hardest part scabbard we saw stability is still ahead and you've got the other countries that are only beginning but i think it's irreversible because all the people have seen it and they felt it and  a kingdom or a lot of credit governments and have our way with their resources and keep them in poverty and ignorance are over well no we represent that now the pattern that we did from our page and that which we have is not adequate to anything except the concentration of wealth and traditional way which is getting worse all the time because there's no way to have any way of distributing of any kind of material benefit or income to d any time soon and there are a lot more prepared to die than we are we've got fat and soft you know the crusades were pretty tough characters yeah they could go down from england take months and months and  take control there is a minor but we have to seek peace union and we have to respect islam yes ok here goes chavez's reach out for that let's get the facts or let's get the thing how many you know that kind of thing and find some sort of a process well if there's anybody who might be able to help in that and has helped in those kind of situations over a long and extremely distinguished careers yourself and i thank you for sharing your wisdom with us on this day and i thank you very much for such a very well  tomorrow that's it for this particular