new book that he's written and he will be familiar to the viewers of conversations i'm sure as well as many others as having a radio show here in new york the runs and also nationally and having increasingly being in the television realm in terms of helping to explain in a way not only that is true to the scientific truths that are involved but also in a way that makes science and the excitement of it accessible to a wide audience and understandable to a wide audience for which we thank you very much and it's a pleasure to welcome  conversations into manhattan at work through a pleasure to be here with you harold it is indeed a pleasure to see you again and you were a guest some time back with your book hyperspace that had been very exciting and i want to show people now the book that's out there at the present and let's see would the people let him get a chance  what it looks like in the bookstores it's called visions and how science will try it will revolutionize the twenty first century and it's out and creeping up on the bestseller list here now in this november of one thousand nine hundred seventy and is recommended to one and all and again thank you very much for the book and for coming in by the way here we were chatting just before the cameras started rolling that is you know there's excitement of the scientific revolutions that are going on as use as you say in your book not only in micro processing in biochemistry and in quantum mechanics but the excitement of the scientific understanding of of our condition that has come to us over the last few years is really staggering particularly if we put that against the fact that we're apparently homo sapiens sapiens been here for two hundred thousand years we come from a common ancestor and it may be ten thousand generations that when we can go back and we come to the point where all of these understanding's that are coming through through scientific investigation and discovery is coming almost exponentially and in these last generation or two and the pace is picking up this is a revolutionary time that we lead we live in now and we border on a new revolutionary for it but it might be worthwhile putting that sort of perspective here at the outset if we could to put things in perspective in terms of the excitement in the rapidity with which we're coming to understand the natural world in these times and i try to you know i've been interviewed one hundred and fifty top scientists around the country and interviewed the top people at harvard mit princeton cal tech and i asked them one question what is your vision for the next twenty fifty one hundred years in the area of computers and d n a and quantum physics and what i found was rather shocking i found  consensus a consensus emerging among scientists about how the future is going to be laid out because we have things like moore's law yes we do know that knowledge doubles every ten years and computer power for example doubles every eighteen months you know that means that we can begin to project into the future that we couldn't do before before we didn't have the quantum theory of matter we didn't have the d n a theory of life and we didn't have computers and logic circus by which we c intelligence now we do we only had we could only understand these things in a certain sense into the light or in a in a in a certain kind of way that we didn't have the chance to be able to to know transmitters and biochemistry of thinking in the mind and so forth and these things are coming so rapidly now as you say moore's law particular you divide your book of i me three section one is compute lead off as it were in a certain sense with the with the revolutions of the microprocessor and so forth and then you go into into bio genetics and into quantum account itself which i think of i'm not mistaken you say in a certain sense was the father to them all that these revolutionary changes but maybe you could lay it out because the moore's law that you just poke about doesn't really to the to the to the incredible revolution of the micro processor right we're going to be embarking upon one of the most fantastic revolutions in all of science we're going to be leaving the world of simply being observers of nature observers to the dance of nature to becoming choreographers of nature we're going to become masters of nature and we're going to be able to create life in our image to create to animate inanimate objects and this of course is the power of a god so we're making this abrupt transition from simply understanding d n a understanding computers understanding quantum theory to be able to create matter at will to create life that will let me give an example of moore's law yes moore's law simply states that computer power doubles every eighteen months that's a very innocent sounding statement but that has changed the world yes because of the fact that this is an exponential increase of computer power if a car for example obeyed moore's law a card today would cost ten card and it sings happy birthday to you that ship has more computer power than all the pentagon computers of nineteen forty five credible now let's project twenty years in the future twenty years in the future according to moore's law chips that is the engine of a trillion dollar industry that has changed the world on computer chips will cost a penny pentium chips will cost just a penny now that's a cost of scrap paper you scribble on scrap paper and you throw it away scrap paper is everywhere on gum wrappers on the flaws it's garbage that's where chips are going to be they're going to be invisible but ubiquitous and everywhere incredible this comes to  revolutionizing it and it's only about what twenty years ago or thirty five years ago that we first discovered the transistor and then the microprocessor itself we didn't know this was even possible that's right in the late forty's then into the fifty's the transistor was done transistors used to be about this and i can put millions of them on you're on your finger now and that means that in the future a computer power will be everywhere computers will be on your watch for example this is going to be an internet node you'll talk to it in english and it'll talk back to you a television screens will cost pennies which means that the bus advertisements you see in the streets of new york city they're going to move in the future because transistors are going to be so cheap that even still images television screens can be placed on  buses your glasses for example will have a chip in them prototypes already exist whereby you have a p c screen right in your glasses and if you so desire your glasses will recognise people's faces how many times have you met somebody at a party and you forget who this person's name is the gym or john in the future your glasses will recognise that person is and tell you it's john it's john so you'll know who the c e o s are who the personnel officers are of a company so you'll know who to go to at a cocktail party in order to get a job ok your v c r people today cannot program v c r is it too hard in the future will just talk to the v c r in the v c r well we'll talk back to us so we're talking about conveniences we're talking about household appliances that we can talk to and one scientists i interviewed at mit even said that the future may even resemble the medieval ages where everyone thought that things were animated they were spirits in trees and spirits and appliances and furniture in the future we'll have chips in appliances so we'll talk to mrs t top like in beauty and the beast and mrs teacup will talk back to us using so today when you walk into a room you assume that electricity is everywhere right you turn on the light switch and everything's electrified right look at the wall sockets in the future that's going to be the way it is with intelligence and incredible the electricity was there in the capability was there for us to car you have a chip but in the future your car will have a t v screen that will tell you where you're located on any part of the earth by satellites going overhead the g p s satellites will tell you your location within about twenty feet and then if you're falling asleep in a car you're beginning to get drowsy the computer screen of the dashboard recognize your eyes recognize you're falling asleep and wake you up and if you're drunk your dashboard will recognize if you have alcohol in your breath they will refuse to start so things will be animated around us in a way in a way that wasn't possible in the past there's so many things that come out of that one of the things about it is that bucky fuller used to talk about energy or used to talk about being able to do more with it were without with less and less resources and a certain so that there is a model there is a message that we need not pollute and destroy the environment in order to gain material benefit in the way that we almost had to do and william blick talk about the static mills it may be a great ecological hope in terms of what some of these technologies old do you think and is the microprocessor a model for other specs of the industrial or post industrial structure and use and i think so because if you take a look at even rockets for example the future of rocketry is to make them smaller faster cheaper better same thing with chips and the future chips may be as big as a dust particle for example in which case you'll use fewer resources will pollute the environment last we won't need these huge p c he's on our desks and television screens are going to become obsolete because television is going to go into the wall we'll have wall screens prototypes exist that i've seen already about four feet across there blend into the wall they simply project a picture of a seaside when you want them and you turn it on and there's the internet you turn it on and there's a t v screen so in the future we're going to be using resources much better than before perhaps even polluting less and we're going to have like i said before even our clothes will have had chips in them by which we're going to be able to communicate with the entire planet earth instead of five hundred channels on your cable box we're going to have five billion channels everyone on earth in principle could have their own t v channel the ultimate expression of the internet in the certain sense or what i know the beginnings of which the internet is now that's right in fact i simple example at mit a graduate student has glasses with a t v camera in it and when he goes shopping the t v camera scans what he sees and he puts that on to the internet if you dial his web page you can see what he is seeing at any given time this means that for example if your if your husband goes shopping for food he doesn't quite know what the buy the wife can access is his t v glasses and find out exactly what fruit to buy and what then you don't need a laundry list to go to the grocery store you simply look at what that person is seeing and you can have an interactivity that will be able to be capable of being realized in the future or is beginning to be even now that's why we'll be able to talk to that person because we'll be wired the whole earth is going to be wired so the internet is the beginning of a of a planetary of a planetary intelligent a sort of in a certain extent the extent of these technologies are in a certain sense an extension of our conscious that's right to any environment that's right and you know member this is not the jetsons prototypes exist i'm a scientist you know you are an mit i interviewed the people building these things i saw prototypes of all these things being built face on it if you so desire you'll talk to that face and you'll ask a question and it will access the entire memory banks of the planet earth it isn't it is it is truly is truly amazing as and in our new years we'll see this happen smaller and smaller more and more powerful all the time until it will reach a certain point where in the laws of physics it will no longer be able to apply then they're going to have to go into other models which might cross fertilize with other aspects of science and technology and development that come out of a different field of computer science right and in fact in the dialogical systems are something that you know the interesting thing is if you take moore's law out to thirty forty years beyond the point at which it breaks down you go thirty forty years you're beginning to approach the power of the brain the brain operates at about a thousand teraflop calculations a trillion floating point operations per second that's what the brain is capable of about a thousand teraflops at the present time president clinton has authorized the building of the world's fastest computer at one teraflop one k now by moore's law doubling every eighteen months you can then calculate that within you know twenty thirty twenty forty we'll be able to have computers that rival the human brain in terms of raw memory power ok now that doesn't mean by the way that we're going to have mechanical maze and butlers we were way off scientists are a way off projecting artificial intelligence you know that movie two thousand and one j had that murderous robot how how has to be turned on in one thousand nine hundred seven that's the year welcome to ninety seven right yeah that's the year how many thousand was supposed to be turned on we were off by about thirty years you know and we were off because of the fact we didn't understand the unconscious mind most of the brain does unconscious calculations for example it recognizes patterns around the room it has common sense capabilities on mars for example we ha cockroach right here and you go like this to the cockroach the cockroaches recognizes your hand scans the hand understands there's danger general run off if you go like this if a martian goes like this to the mars rover the mars rover wouldn't know that there's a hand about this what it that's how stupid the mars rover is with are stupid and they're just building up we're just billions extension out into the environment and we've got all these biological systems that have these feedback mechanisms and so forth but aren't we making progress i guys gave us the wrong scoop thirty years ago with hal nine thousand with all these predictions of mechanical maze and bottlers what went wrong and why what did they say they said the following thing they under estimated common sense that makes the likes of the of common common sense a child a five year old kid knows that mothers are older than their children that animals do not like pain that if you die you don't come back that water is wet that twins age at the same rate now they learn that through experience friends right in the room vironment nowhere in the laws of logic now nowhere in the mathematics of logic does it say that mothers have to be older than their daughters no where does it say water has to be away no where does it say that if you die you don't come back the next day no where in the laws of logic does it say that animals don't like pain you have to program it in not equate it in a gram in a computer it is the capability many able to program that that water is wet there are two hundred at least two hundred million rules of common sense that a five year old knows two hundred million rules that's why the top down approach hasn't worked the bottom approach is to learn like a baby well that's it expert systems they can learn bump into things that are wet have them talk to a mother and realize that mothers are older than their children and transform themselves by feedback loops or by learning they can write because neural networks are and we figured that maybe in thirty forty years the two approaches may begin to meet  will begin to perhaps within fifty years begin to mimic some of the powers of the brain the brain turned out to be much more sophisticated than we thought because of the unconscious nature of the brain or for that matter the biological system is incredibly complex when you look at the watson and crick and what they showed us with the d n a and the complexity of a biological organism which is another one of the things you can write in the book is is so incredibly complex in the reality which is there and yet we come to understand that better as well so these systems  and what is that what is the genome i mean if we were to talk about that in a large term ok and macro term ok humans the united states government has allocated three billion dollars on the greatest crash program in all of biology three billion dollars to take the toaster for godsake as owners manual everything has an owner's manual except you yeah in the human genetics and we don't have an owner's manual right this cd rom will tell you that if you're african american watch out for sickle cell anemia if you're to cure sickle cell anemia your huntington's disease which killed woody guthrie's a horrible disease go into convulsions to cure the five thousand genetic diseases that have been with us the dawn of humanity didn't a and here we have this capability of understanding the thirty years or forty years that we didn't have we didn't notice we did we were told it would total mystery illness i was along as an experience and then that those super that does synergistically blend over into some of the for cancer as well but this is incredible we're going to be doing whole classes of cancers within the next twenty years there are three thousand patients today three thousand patients today undergoing gene therapy trials ok maybe for cancer they're going to get they're getting hit with a virus which has the correct gene in this case p thirty three fifty three is the main cancer gene when it's defective half of all cancers are related to  writer's right right as a movie called jadick of the future in the future we have designer children because this is where it's leading to is that on a children were leading to the ability to design our children genetically and other aspects of the biological change height perhaps what sex can be done today i color hair health looks disposition personality these are the things that we'll be able to change genetically with our children and that raises of course all sorts of moral questions as well as you know who decides what characteristics our children should have is not only that it's not only if i'm is not only the human genetic structure but it's the whole biological system that we have a new or even into bacteriological his body age but he kept living forever dorian gray you know so but you see two months ago something happened that was quite dramatic two month two months ago from nine to yeah two months ago scientists isolated the first do human aids gene really really this is incredible last year people didn't know whether they even existed or not right now we've isolated two of perhaps many genes which control the human aging process what is called  is a disease in children whereby children die of old age children begin to literally age before your eyes like the x files almost i didn't know such exist go ahead i've seen pictures of it in that lose their hair their teeth they become seleka lights which are human so not an animal or a worm or a fly a human cell we can make it age or stop aging like a light switch and here's how it works yeah every cell in our body divides about sixty times sixty times and then it dies after about fifty divisions it gets old and senile and after sixty it dies and that's called the aging process that is called death now we knew therefore that there was a clock it's a time bomb it knows how to divide sixty and shorter every time a cell divides after sixty yes it's gone it's dead so the cell that we know what happened that's right yeah all right as cell is programmed to age and programmed to die after six reproductions now and this is big news now you know the people in my book that i interviewed at mit isolated kilometer race the gene which stops the aging process you can stop the clock it stops the fuse from getting smaller and smaller imagine a time bomb that you stop the fuse therefore the time bomb does not explode ok and now that does not mean that we have the fountain of youth i don't want to raise people's hopes that we're going to live forever all i'm saying is that in a petri dish with human cells in it that are aging we can add to mom arrays to it and stop the aging process that interesting it just divides on and on and on now we know that can't this is also linked to cancer is because cancer cells in some sense are immortal and they want to way they run away also for the same reason we know know that cancer cells stop the fuse that's why they're cancerous and those which cannot stop them would not control their fuse or call a cancer cell and so the future will be able to take cells and make them divide more than sixty times and not make them go cancer and and that's well within the realm of possibility and it's amazing and really we just sit here and say it's amazing but it really is true what's going on all around is a third thing that you talk about in there is your field printing of your of your specialized field as  segments of the book on these three aspects of the overall aspect of under human understand with call sign right if you take a look at all of science we have the theory of matter and we have life and then we have the mind we now know that matter matter is controlled by the quantum theory a theory which gives us adams and protons and perhaps what are called super strings and then we have the theory of d n a which gives us an understanding of the evolution of life forms how why life looks the way it does and then we have logic circuits computers chips which allow us to begin to tease apart the thinking process that goes on in our own mind well that's part of the biochemical model for understanding consciousness in a certain sense no is it right yet right in the end in the bio the the the computer revolution and the micro processing revolution is in a certain sense an extension of the understanding of the way the mind works and in the sense when mimicking that that's right we have neurons in our brain that fire back transistors fire could be on or off our brain is of course a much more complicated we have as many neurons as there are stars in our galaxy and engine neuron of the tenth power about two hundred billion stars plus or minus and they're not hard wired i don't know if some of that is hardwired or if that led watson and crick to down over the d n a molecule right now we physicists are going even beyond that for example take a look at machine we know that when machines were introduced three four hundred years ago that gave us civilization as we know it how small can you make a machine we're not talking about machine the size of atoms adam molecules molecule machine yes i would acknowledge yeah we're talking about the fact that just a few years ago an abacus was made out of  the applications of this are staggering for example the simplest would be in our bloodstream and can imagine in our blood a mechanical machine that patrols our blood and wipes out cholesterol deposits and side of the outside not to have you open heart surgery prototype except when we talk about nanotechnology we have mechanical abacuses made out about i was but we have yet to produce gears levers and pulleys made out of individual atoms but that's coming within about five ten years i expect to see the first structure of nature itself in a molecular level they are machines there are things that exist and that look for all the world like something leonardo da vinci would have constructed take a look at d n a and they look like computer tape and they look at you know you know when i was a high school kid i used to program anymore that's what we're going to have be able to that's why we're going to have proton or protein computers d n a computers electronic computer is maybe even quantum computers the ultimate computer so the quantum theory takes over after twenty we had the laws of energy production you know and in my book i end of the following note that we believe that civilizations can be of three types a type one civilization is many years ahead of us but two hundred years ahead of us as a planetary civilization which controls the weather mind of the oceans has cities on the oceans controls earthquakes i truly planetary civilization type one and type two civilization has exhausted the power of a planet what else is left of stars these civilizations don't simply get a sun tan they reach out and grab chunks of star material and put it into their engines so when junior it was the bar of the starship he says daddy can i buy the starship and that he says yeah put a few white  to said that in the world of science and what you're talking about in the world of science the age of discovery is over we've all discussed we've discovered all the principles that are applying as far as universe and it applies to the universe with thermodynamics and so what we have that we have the understanding we have the knowledge and it's only left to fill in a few of the details as is up for the being goners now is the in the details how we're going to do that the big discoveries are over what do you say mr hoar well i think there's a certain amount of silliness which you know the end of the end of science is over at the well i think john was on to something and that is the foundation of this house we're talking about the foundation has been laid we have a big bang theory of cosmologists we do have a d n a theory of life we have a quantum theory of transition is from being observers of the dance of nature into being choreographer and has an interesting metaphor you know we are caught we're going to be choreographers of life we're going to be able to choreograph life almost at will within the next several decades we're going to able to put  anime inanimate objects will put chips inside toys for example already being animated by chips and shit and dolls will talk back to was will interact with our toys we're talking about making this transition so john was on to something he knew that the foundation was being laid but that's it well we're talking about becoming masters of this technology well that is it is that the quantum theory and the and the d n a and you know in the they would try to say that we we've discovered so much in the last say fifty years and that basic understanding of things that we simply did not have in the past but that and there's nothing the basic understanding is there you don't think the there is something to be said for for his thesis that the basic and there's no great discovery to be made there the way that we did with watson and crick and others who made the discovery they made these eureka discovered we now understand that you don't feel that way i think horribly or something is there something synergistically new that important that's right i think what john is onto is the end of the reductionism the end of the era of laying the foundation specialisation at the end of the era of specialization and the end of the era of simply looking at nature and wondering what is nature all about and you know that era is over and now we're in the era of synergy where in the area of being choreographers of nature of looking at the bigger picture and creating life and animate matter in our own image  this means that if we have the power of a god we should have the wisdom of solomon and that may not be true we have to have the wisdom of solomon to exercise this enormous power we're talking about young to be that begins to start bringing it into human systems in a certain sense that aren't scientific and we make these projections about you know we're going to do this and twenty years this and thirty years and so forth right and in fact it does presuppose in a certain systems way trying to get at a comprehensive aspect writings which might include political economic and other kind of aspects of the humans and other than science to understand i mean the giving them might make a difference in terms of if the science foundation puts the grant forward or we have the financing system that allows us to do the exhilarate or in these other kinds of things will have certain projection patterns that would be available but that if we don't come up with some sort of a system we have a let's say a massive mass based revolution against unjust economic systems or something it could put a wrinkle into some of these projections that we're trying to make into the future if you understand want to think that is it important to try and deal with millions of missing young girls in china and india because peasant you do not want to have female children you'd rather have male children having a sonogram you can tell the difference between males and females and  they're just disappointed there are millions of missing men males and females the chinese government recognizes this and even has banned the use of sonograms a certain situation to restrict this horrible process of abortions going on in india and china  females and now you can imagine what's going to happen once we have designer children a sonogram is nothing nothing compared to what we can do in the future not somebody once asked me do you really believe that parents want to design their children parents spend thousands of dollars on violin lessons bought thousands of dollars on tutoring and sh t cram schools and stuff like that you can imagine what pencil do if they can simply increase the memory of their kids  that's doable now you know just a few months ago again at mit i get the people i interviewed for my book yes announce the fact that with mice we can now genetically alter them such that their memory is reduced or their memories and hands i interviewed walter gilbert winner of the nobel prize the guy who actually sequenced d n a yes and he told me that in the future we will have a magic potion a magic potion that you can drink that will inhance your memory  despised in the movie goetic other people who are despised are the normal people you me everybody else that has twelve genetic defects we're not so tall we're not so handsome we're not so vigorous we're not so pleasant their projected these kind of things and these kind of changes were coming to some sort of a qualitative transformation after two hundred after ten thousand generations of homo sapiens sapiens there was consciousness and one thing we don't talk directly about maybe it's in the realm of consciousness that is in a certain sense as we were transcendent if that's the right term to to fit the scene there will be a consciousness manifest in this part of the universe trance and to the consciousness that has been the human experience yet we're we've been gestating we're perhaps coming into a new relationship to universe at the level of consciousness and fulfilling some sort of a just ation natal prenatal experience that we're now going to come into my relationship to michael a movie two thousand and that ways in which homo superior males are here you may start to walk the surface of the earth and first of all as far as the human evolution today human evolution has stopped ok we're not going to see people with big heads and big eyes and small bodies and that's a science fiction you know human evolution has stopped because everyone can have kids people made across countries are no more bottlenecks in evolution so there's a homogeneity within the human race so our evolution is pretty much stopped so if evolution accelerates again it will be because of one of two reasons either we'll have cyborgs that is we're going to have artificial organs made out of silicon or we're going to simply tamper with our own genetic makeup you know they can either way we may become in some sense immortal we may have the ability to to literally determine the nature of the human race now we're talking by the way one hundred to two hundred years in the future the people who believe in artificial intelligence theory for example are not afraid of robots robots could be dangerous robots could be programmed to kill for example merge with our creations we will merge will download our memories into these groups robots and we will have bodies of silicon yes we'll go to bed one night with a decrepit body wake up with a body of silicon that remember this is hundreds of years in the future and no one is saying this is going to have a by two thousand and twenty we don't know how the brain is wired up is like trying to figure out the manhattan wiring system with no blueprints well with all due respect we do in a certain sense know how it is done we don't know all the details of who we have  discoveries to be made about how that is done or is it just a you know a working out of the details of what we now know the large picture of the details are so great you know some people have had that we need a new human genome pride right you crash program to decipher the layman and so for the now this is getting into science but then there is this whole human project and in a certain sense we have these revolutions and signs and so forth what do we talk about and yet at the same time when we talk about economics we're talking about in a certain sense the operation of economics we're still talking about the economics in bay we haven't have a revolutionary thought pattern in terms of economics we're still operating on what mr adam smith said two hundred thousand two hundred years or no change and there's not been a revolution in terms of economic which is going to make possible in many people's minds the appropriate world order that's going to bring us some sort of elemental justice and maximizing the potential of each member of the human society in like an orchestra you want everyone playing the maximally right it we haven't got a system that allows that to happen and yeah and i require a change of economic philosophy that we don't see operating in the political economic systems under which these scientific developments are to develop into the future and do you see a revolution in economics it is going to be called for in order to make a an appropriate utilization of the human capability with the extended technological capability into the future yes because of the fact that we are making the transition from a type zero to a type one civilization really planetary civilization adam smith did not first see the fact that web one point civilization will become planetary and that's where we're headed in the next hundred two hundred years at three percent g n p growth per year why don't we three percent that's the average we're growth rate on the other planet earth that china and other countries have even faster growth rates but at three percent growth rate per year we will hit type one type type one status within about one hundred to two hundred years which means that nations are going to gradually wither away the fact they already are look at the european union guys a language universal language is going to emerge it's going to be english language and already this language of commerce and science a interplay planetary culture is even beginning you can go to any country on the earth and see a movie with arnold schwarzenegger and madonna oh my god i think i know that i think of the culture of the future all the notches of mcdonald's and douglas everyone at the planetary internet the internet is the clearest example of the beginning of a type one civilization ok we're talking about the our you're making some assumptions there that then you're saying in a certain sense yes we have an economic system and we just have a new patients everyone's going to be brought in on this and we don't need to have some sort of new quantum understanding or synergistic revolutionary new understanding in the realm of economics the system that we have is going to serve us ok well you see the old saying this is going to bring justice to the old system to have not exist as it is because the old system existed in their type zero civilization where where you can have infinite frontiers infant markets the population was ever expanding we're talking about a time when civilization is truly planetary that has a sealed off population for exam five delays will seal off by the way add around eleven billion right of the earth we can handle and the reason for that by the way is that there is a universal contraceptive the world's greatest contraceptive is called prosperity when they have become prosperous like japan germany italy singapore they have negative growth rates negative growth rate in the united states by the way would also have a negative growth rate if it wasn't for immigration to stop immigration and we collapse just like germany japan singapore and italy this means that the old paradigm of adam smith where you have infinite frontiers infinite population expansion infinite borders has to be modified because now we're talking about a finite pondering with a finite population a population which seals off that communication is instantaneous to any two humans on the planet earth there is a culture which means that wars and wars of exploitation and colonialism are going to be much more difficult to fight in the future as nations industrialized and as middle classes want to have consumer goods rather than war medals on their chest general motors just announced they're going to lay off forty five thousand after having laid off six eighty thousand and their plants and so forth around the country i mean we have these kind of things there was a slump in the market in the a shook the situation and right ward and these assumptions that you're making a certain sense is on the assumption that the economic growth the three the glide path of three percent and this kind of thing is going to work without any major kind of interruptions or any need for any kind of a change the women go on the one percent a year and they still say that there's of threat of inflation and why is it if there was a revolutionary economic development that's in keeping with the technological capabilit have that some people say we have a technological capability of providing life support and equitable condition among the people of the world and letting everyone for tribute that our inherited political economic system do not allow us to realize ok now there is a danger in a type zero civilization going to type one there is a very big danger the danger period is that these civilizations will have nuclear weapons these civil and  one hundred light years we've searched star systems on two hundred light years and there's silence one theory is that there are types zero civilizations that never made it to type one because inevitably they'll discover element ninety two and never to believe right psychologically why could relate to the fact that we don't have an economic political economic system that is going to allow for the maximal beneficent you know for the maximal use that we're not going to have a world where you can have epsilons and with brave new world except baby factory and we're going to have cloning in a few years and so that everything in brave new world projected six hundred years in the future is going to happen in this century look at nine hundred eighty four we have more computer power today than george orwell dreamed yack the nine hundred thirty the one the microprocessor yet even know that right but what happened the internet became a democratizing experience that's one of the sources of hope the sources of hope is that we will have a middle international middle class that wants consumer goods that once access to information they'll have unlimited access to information via the internet which means the dictatorships and tyrants are not going to be able to control populations anymore people will see that there is wealth out there and we'll get we can have an economic engine that will provide well for everybody whether it's distributed equitably or not will see but nations are industrializing is that important whether it's distributed equitably or not i think it's important to look at asia asia has two thirds of the world's population take a look at india pakistan all of china and japan zones over two thirds of every homosapien is asian however they are industrializing for the first time at five to ten percent growth rate with a reasonable equity equitable distribution of well one to ten by the way narrow worker will be an average corporate head gets ten times more than the average worker much more not the pattern here right in this country is more like one in a hundred now the average head of a c e o makes one hundred times what a worker would make and and latin america and even worse yeah i'm about two hundred three hundred times the disparity right so in certain areas of the earth like latin america we're talking about a huge gap between the rich and the poor hine but at least in asia the gap is much less some more people are being a shot into middle class status into in asia and that's why i see that there's a whole division for hope well let's hope that you're right because that's a orchestra to play well if you're playing with them and you want to have for every human being and everybody ecologically tied into the whole so that there would be a synergistic residency more than the sum of maximilian good biological system on this planet with its augmented capability extended outward and then we would have a relationship the universe and residency and you know i know we're not we're not all resonances i think if we had type one status and we probably will in a hundred to two hundred years unless we blow resells up or that literate cell the one big if i would i don't know as a big if right but if we can negotiate these horrible barriers then i think we will attain type one status ok and if we're going to get there i'll tell you we're going to want to reseed michelle cottle as new book is the one that lays out some of the aspects of what's going on in terms of the scientific revolution in terms of understanding these things within an economic context as we just started talking about it might be a topic for another conversation but in any event machine akaka thank you very much for all your work in particular for this book and all encourage of course to go out and get it and get yourself some understanding it's a very very good book and i thank you very much for all your work and my pleasure your pleasure has his perceptions we invite you to and it will be coming back again next week that's it for this for this conversation will see you next week i'm a chicago once again thanks for all your work and for the book vision thing until next time