hello my name is brittany smith and i'm the director of education at the fortune society welcome to both sides of the bar a discussion driven show that examines the legal system from various perspectives including people most impacted by the system we discussed critical questions about how the current system operates momentum for change within social justice movements in the impact these issues has on the lives of everyone that they affect we eschew the viewers to spread the word about both sides of the bars and share your comments about today's episode using at the fortune s o c today show it's titled land of the free and home of the brave july is the moment that the united states celebrates the signing of the declaration of independence announcing that the thirteen colonies at war with great britain were guard themselves as independent sovereign state this is thorkell event led to the formation of the united states and is celebrated as a federal holiday on july th to america this is an important national holiday and longstanding symbol of patriotism american flags are honored with nice guys filled with fireworks accompanied by a patriotic song such as the star spangled banner which brings us to our discussion topic today a reflection an examination of the final phrase of the star spangled banner nine federal prisons one thousand seven hundred and seventy two juvenile correctional facilities three thousand one hundred and sixty three local jails and eighty indian country jails as well as in military prisons immigration to send to detention facilities civil commitment centers state psychiatric hospitals and prisons a us territory there are another eight one hundred and forty thousand people on parole and three million six hundred thousand people on probation in the united states the united states has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world today i have the pleasure of discussing these important questions with sherrilyn bentley an associate ellyn in golden l l c sherrilyn is a member of the farm's class action practice group representing employees in discrimination wage an hour in criminal background check litigation before joining the farm to clerk for the honorable judge chief judge patrice b plucker of the united states just record for the eastern district of pennsylvania since then she has exclusively represented employees  a from harvard university and her j d from yale law school thank you for joining us today thank you for having me so i just want to give a few more kind of discussion points and some things that we can think about as we talk more about this idea the land of the free and the home of the brave and that is if the united if each state in the u s were considered an independent independent country twenty three dollars of the states would be at the top of the list if we looked at the state with the lowest rate which is massachusetts we would still rank knife in the world for incarceration there's a mass incarceration crisis underway in the united states which were aware of and it's been building momentum for decades with so many people combined can we really consider ourselves the land of the free at this point in time no i think that's a great question there so many people like you said who are can find any incarcerated in prison and not only that when they come out of prison and you know they think we have our freedom now they are the residual effect of having been incarcerated really weighs them down you know they're barred from certain jobs  licenses they have difficulty finding jobs where there is no legal restriction for example and they have difficulty finding housing and just finding a safe place to live so in that sense we're not only  punishing people the for you know one time or basically incarcerating them the the st time but we're continuing that cycle when people leave the justice system thank you so much for that and i think you know it's something that i see very frequently in the work and fears that we have around explains where employers gaps in our resumes or worrying about what the background check is going to say how we kind of engage in that conversation moving forward but to add to that from your perspective has racial discrimination morphed into discrimination by the legal system as a result of things like a criminal record absolutely so i'll explain to you so more and more we're seeing employers use criminal background checks as a screen for hiring applicants or sometimes for screening applicants when they're screening employees when they've already been employed and this is across all industries retailers cheeriest it's across there's so many different industries and companies that are using criminal background checks to screen out applicants and you know what we see is of course because of the number a disproportionate number of african americans and latinos people of color who have contact with the criminal justice system who are incarcerated or who do have a record they are then subsequently impacted more by this practice of screening the applicants with criminal histories so in effect what's happening is that employers are using a criminal background check as a screen but in effect that's having a disparate impact on african americans especially and latinos i would add to that from personal experience when i was released from prison i was afraid to even applied a certain job because i didn't want to have to explain myself so at times i found it comfortable to take a retail job because i didn't know what my career outlook would look like and working at the fortune society and with some of our participants they go into careers or believe that they should take minimum wage jobs because they don't think that there is any potential anywhere else or they go into only construction fields or feels that they still like are friendly to individuals who have this felony conviction or criminal justice background are fortunate because how are we discussing rehabilitation and moving forward and people being free in being able to live comfortably provide for their family if so many people not only are being it's against internally believe that they will be discriminated against because of this criminal conviction so it's really a difficult question to navigate for so many of our participants is something that we really tried to work with in regards to because it's so much more there so much more  than kind of this criminal conviction so for an employer to kind of disqualify a person just based on this circumstance really limits the pool of applicants that you have as a result of that and that's right and it's not only just their belief it's a reality  so many people for example getting licens or having skills and training for example maybe you want to become a barber or hear stylist or have some skill a lot of times you'll be barred from getting obtaining those lice licenses because of your criminal background may be you know you think oh i have a shot at a job at a retail or maybe an entry level job but because of your criminal history which may have nothing to do with the job at issue the job that you're seeking employers me scream them out and i will add to that even thinking about career exploration and moving forward in education and how that ties into a career i recently started columbia university w program massive social program and while doing the application for financial aid the fast before s if you've been convicted of a crime with drug related charges and i can't remember the exact wording but it really struck me that in applying to kind of advance yourself or further your career that this is still kind of a part of the conversation and while columbia doesn't have it on their actual application there are still many colleges and universities that asked whether you've been convicted of a felony to me it has no relation to my ability to you know engage in academic coursework especially if i know that this will advance my career and give me new career options so it's kind of disconcerting for me to see that as a former incarcerated individual who has a rich educational experience and was just looking to continue along that spectrum definitely that just creates one barriers for an individual like yourself who you know just want to advance and move forward with your education provide for yourself and your family and seek out opportunities you're coming out of you know the criminal justice system too and you want to be an active member of society contributing member of society and that just makes it more difficult for you and oftentimes it may act as a deterrent for example if you see this question on your application form in your case it was for the fast correct and then for other people it may be an application form for a job and they may be deterred maybe as you said they say they think to themselves you know they'll never hire me and so they don't answer the question or they don't pursue a position there and therefore they will continue to have difficult time making ends meet and it's really unfortunate that we're not seeing it in one industry it's not just in employment it's not in education or also seeing things like housing where that is definitely a common part of housing application which i also recall from when i st came home and looking i had great family support but wanting to be on your own and so now i'm working a decent job and i'm preparing this life to go back to school and kind of the next steps along that spectrum is finding housing and we find that similar circumstances are existing in the housing market  and how homelessness and housing instability is a significant factor impacting people with criminal justice involvement and we are aware of this and at what point do we kind of consistently make changes because all tied together when we talk about employment and housing and i can't necessarily afford housing if i can't get a job is paying me more than minimum wage so this discrimination that we're seeing kind of exists in so many realms that we haven't kind of critically analyze or thought about as much  well if i'm struggling with employment and i'm struggling with housing then how am i supposed to be this productive member of society and people who are in the movement are very aware of it but i think it's kind of how we discuss how we change the conversation about what freedom really means in america what for example if people can't find a place to rest their head at night or people can't find jobs to support themselves and their families you know in a way that they want to be productive in contributing to society where else can be turned what are other alternatives approaches for them and you know i think that it definitely sort of could create additional challenges for people barriers for people and it really leaves very little opportunities to to improve their lives and their family's lives yes as you mentioned families is just another point that we're thinking about there are so many children in america where they've experienced one of their parents incarceration and we recognize that this leads to negative outcomes in children so we're looking at that continuum we're not just looking at what's happening with the individuals who we are also seeing kind of within the family system in the interruptions that happen within that life you know interruptions education they kind of become this general generational concern where we don't just have the individuals who are incarcerated and how they're impact that but we also have how their children are impacted and how family life has changed drastically in the last several decades related to kind of this crisis of mass incarceration so it's just something that you know as we continue this discussion and we think about again time back into our our topic for today this idea of freedom what type of freedoms to families in this situation have the how is a limited by that do you have any thoughts on how this kind of relates to family life i think it's destructive to family life it's destructive to to to the bonds that people want to build with their families coming out of coming out of the system they want to be able to provide for their family and the can't do that they want to stay busy during the day find employment they can't do that and or they may not be able to live with their family right because of restrictions around you know where they may live because of their  their their criminal histories so that essentially destroys that family structure is hard for people to reconnect with their family in that respect and i think that a lot of jurisdictions have recognised this in the you know they've passed you know a fair chance laws are different ordinances across the country because they recognise that basically punishing people over repeatedly because of their a mistake in their past or past wrong is unjust unfair and we need to help people build people up in all aspects of their life so that they can move forward with their lives and hopefully i mean this is not only just going to impact their lives and make it better for them but it's going to impact the rest of society when we have people who are working and productive and can contribute to the market it's a positive contribution to society i think that's the biggest concern and i think problem for individuals who are in the situation where while incarcerated you are kind of already experiencing this detachment in this lack of freedom and you don't have a family necessarily you might have support but they're not there with you you don't have what you are perceiving when you leave as employment opportunities and so are kind of in this state what i guess i'm asking is how do we change is the idea of punishing people twice like you said you go to prison and you lose a lot of your freedoms and your rights you come home expecting to be a productive member of society we want you to be a productive member of society but what steps can i guess we take as individuals as organizations as movements to kind of fat punishing people twice for the one mistake  they made great absolutely so and i think organizations like the fortune to say i have done a really great job of providing very holistic wraparound services for people after the after the come out of prison after they have that criminal justice involvement to providing services so that they can can reconnect with their families and seek employment opportunities seek housing opportunities having those organizations being funded i think is that really one big step i think that the law in the east also move forward and we've seen some steps made in the different ordinances in different localities have been passing different laws to make sure that for example questions around your criminal history isn't the st question that is asked when someone applies for a job for example so it doesn't serve as a deterrent or a barrier you know you judge them based on their qualifications and their ability to perform the job and i think moving forward we also have to think about you know having more individualized analysis instead of just you know just ankit lee grouping people as bad we don't want them here look at the person look at their qualifications look at what they bring to the table and look at the context where they will be what is the house and situation what is the employment that they're seeking how how have golden at our firm we work a lot with individuals who seek employment and they are often screened out because of their criminal background checks and so in one of our cases we allege that a large retailer such as macy's have screened out applicants based on their permanent background and in some cases they screen out employees people who've actually started working at the company the have received various come in the shins they've been productive and there has been no incident but because they run a background because they later find out that the person had a criminal history then that person may be disqualified immediately and that for example doesn't make much sense because this person has been actively participating and actively working and successful has even been received commendations so again that's just an example of how we need to take a closer look and more into village individualized look at what that person brings to the table and see them as a whole person before you see their criminal history thank you so much for that because i agree with you so much when i st started at the forces society i started as a teacher and to me i struggle with the stigma of having incarceration records and in kind of value my own worth and when i came back the fortune to be in an environment that was so supportive and so welcoming it was partly therapy for me but it was also just astounding the number of people that do support you and that do believe in you and that same feeling that i had then is what we try to reinforce within our participants like really want them to understand that they're not defined by their worst mistake and we say frequently to anybody engaging in this conversation with us would you like to be defined by your words the think and always the years there is no and so as we look at it on an individual level and we critically analyze and give people opportunities in areas that they didn't expect to have those opportunities i think it's really important to kind of like you said keep pushing for that model and let's not think that a person just because of this incarceration record is defined by the that circumstance especially i can believe in the case that you were just mentioning where somebody is already working already know that they have a great work ethic you've already supported them in command of them on this work ethic and then just say you're not worth it i think it really speaks to how devalued people with incarceration records are in america and it's very unfortunate and it ties back into this idea of you know life liberty and the pursuit of happiness so at some point you have lost your liberty due to incarceration and now as you are release in pursuing the next stages in your life and you are still kind of limited and you know we briefly touched on conversation around how racial discrimination plays in that and as we're very aware there's you know statistics that we can cite that kind of discuss the number of incarceration incarceration rate of people that are black and brown and it's very unfortunate you know the pager study has demonstrated that white person without a criminal record with a criminal record is more likely to get a job at a black person without one so as we talk about discrimination in employment it's not just kind of one singular factor about how the the race and kind of criminal background play a role so in terms of how we move forward i think is also something about how we change the the way we view people with a criminal record in our society you have any thoughts on how we can change the narrative of a formal incarcerated individuals in our society  change the narrative of that person and i think this would go to it to a certain extent is giving the person the opportunity but you know for me some of it is how we humanize some i guess you would say you know we think of people as other in this environment and see this person they did this and they're a bad person as you mentioned earlier but how do we as a society then move forward with not seeing these people as other like what is it that we can do and not just necessarily organizational level or as an employer just as a human being and how we engage with one another and i want to i want to also touch on your comment about the devil pager study and race and i think that it all is interwoven because as you said in that study a person a white person applying for a job who has a criminal history received an offer for an interview versus more so than  than a black person who has no criminal history and i think that goes to again race because here it shows you just the impact of race not just the criminal justice system not the criminal history the criminal record of this person the impact of race on people's outcomes if there's a gap in their employ on their resume maybe more likely people and the person is black maybe more likely the attribute that gap to there haven't been involved in the criminal justice system i think that it's a question about not only how we how we deal with people who've been in contact with the criminal justice system but also how we deal with race in this country and how  x documentary there teens about how pervasive the problem is between race and the criminal justice system and you touched on a number of other points including the gap within on your resume or viewing your resume and noticing that some of these jobs might be in a town or in a place where we have prisons and so those are some of the additional barriers than just saying oh i might have a criminal history that i can screen you out without ever doing a background check another area  that we kind of haven't really touched on is credit checks and how that is impacted by individuals by incarceration or by lack of employment and for me personally while i was incarcerated had a credit card before going to prison and when i came home and i actually tried to meet with the credit card company and speak to them about like how would i move forward in holding off payments or how because i knew i was going to prison and what the next steps were so when i came home i had terrible credit and it was you know work around to learn how to do that to learn how to fix my credit then apply for housing like i mentioned earlier and so there were just so many things that i personally felt like they were stacked against me and it was really really difficult inside always been grateful for places like the fortune society that kind of tried to change to try to support or do support individuals actually with a try because we do support individuals that are struggling with reentering society so when we talk about kind of what our next steps are as a society i think that in addition to the critical analysis that you're talking about looking at the individual level of what's happening with an individual is how are we discussing numerous policy changes that don't necessarily say you know well this is a concern for a person that is involved in criminal justice system but this is a concern that kind of involves everybody in american society how do you move forward kind of within that in by and i'm glad you brought up the credit issue because that not only will impact your ability for example to get credit in the future or to get housing or even sometimes employers run these credit checks on you as well it just impacts so many aspects of your life that it just seems like the cards are stacked against the person with a criminal history so for me i guess some of my final thoughts on is america a true leave the land of the brave in the home of the free i personally feel at times that as a black woman with a criminal background that there are so many circumstances where i don't feel free where i feel like i'm continuing to fight against bars that are being set around me and you know i know it's a personal struggle that i have encountered it with people that i work with but i also recognize that we ha the opportunity to make changes and even that kind of has become a slight concern in terms of disenfranchisement of individuals with felony convictions there are a number of states that don't allow you to vote based on your conviction there are a number of states that restrict it while you're on probation and parole and so that's another area that i think that if we're talking about how we make changes that's something to think about as we move forward so where about a close up do you have any wrapping thoughts that you'd like to share with our audience today i just thank you for sharing your story to just really display our demonstrate how just having that criminal history may have nothing to do with you as a person your qualifications and you as an excellent employee and then just an excellent individual who can move forward but the barriers that you face coming out of prison really helps to demonstrate how difficult it is for people even with someone like you who is such an inspiration thank you so much for that cheryl and well unfortunately our time is coming to a close thank you for an extremely thoughtful discussion to our national audience especially people watching from behind the walls i hope this inspires you to research efforts aimed at organizing to reform the legal system and collateral consequences designed to further zero press communities if you're interested in finding out more about the fortune society please visit us at our website fortune society or on facebook by typing in the fortune society this is britney smith and i appreciate you joining us as we critically look at