and he has a scholar particular interest in the middle east fair to say and norton has been ski welcome very very much calm thank you advice to be here it's nice to be to you once again here yes now we have a book i want to show right at the outset and  let's let the people in the in the audience know what it looks like it's called jewish fundamentalism in israel and he's the co author of this book along with israel shock who unfortunately passed just recently calmer last summer which is humanity's last time i guess it is and i'm sorry for that he was a close friend and colleague of ours what we want to talk about this book and other matters d but i wonder maybe you could norton if you would it's a beginning i'll share some of your own background where you were born and raised educated that sort of thing and then we'll get down to talking about some of the you know the political and social economic realities particularly the middle east but i was one of the middle west i was born iowa and i grew up in ames iowa ames i was an instructor at city college here in new york and then in one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven in the fall of sixty seven i went to new britain connecticut to central connecticut then it was state college yes and i've been there since oh boy my graduate work in all this thing in geography does and i know that also they're both very comprehensive you know because you could do anything in the name of history history of technology is three of intellectual any that isn't a right and so maybe we should ask you did you tend to when you were undergraduate or even graduate work begin to specialize or how did you specialize or did you try and keep trying to be like overview of the whole thing or what was your attitude toward the discipline we like to think that we learned a few things within the general contact yes but i started out emphasizing this tree of the united states ok i knew that i wanted to deal with jewish history and jews and immigration good yeah so i did that st was on the context of the field of semitics and the man i worked with and that field minox a month sewer was one of the great scholars of the dead sea scrolls i see ok so that broadened out the jewish part of it yeah and then after i began to teach then i moved more and more into the history of the modern middle east and especially his three of the arab israeli conflict all right that's what i am for it was very well grounded in your having had a grounding in and did a history that's right yeah and i had a great many interesting stories and i had a background and i had a good background in that even before i went to the universe yeah had had there been interest in the family and i just sat around there w my parents were orthodox jews in the middle of iowa ok we had more family in israel then in the united states yes and so when i began junior in college after i had had a few history courses one day i asked myself a basic question could it be that in a conflict this significant important on a large one side namely the israeli jews  one hundred percent correct and all of the arabs are one hundred percent wrong and if my father were here with us now he would say they would say yes but he go further and say from his perspective it was all downhill for me after i asked that for and they were in israel and they had been introduced to me know where i my relatives who were the most chauvinist pig israeli jew really i knew something about what an uncle comment in united states so it was not hard to that probably those four fit into that category and i then decided that one thing i needed to do the broaden my perspective was to meet get to know more of the people of that civilization and more of their history and more of their culture where they've been interlinked haven't thing over the long haul they have a maybe you could for the sin for a few minutes on the history of the day people now we begin with abraham or you know how where where where where where know but if you could but i mean further was agreed there was association with the cut city of urns to marion times or something or you know what is history what do we know about it in a summary kind of way because well did a lot of you dissertation and then think yes let's take well managed that early let us say we have two categories that overlap one is judaism and the history of judaism and the other is the history of jews and the history of the jewish people there they are no they aren't because everyone who believes in religious law in judaism you know if a person is born of a jewish mother that person is a jew even if that person converts to another religion if the person converts the person is camo tickly speaking an scholars are in some disagreement about the exact beginning i mean some will date for example the history of judaism beginning with abraham some will dated beginning with moses some will dated beginning at other times  so it is with the history of the jews as well and if we were to do with abraham what are we talk i mean when we can begin to a dentist to whatever literature or so forth the unique group of people the judaic people when what dates are we talking a now iraq that's right that's right and abraham i mean what is our attitude toward abraham or our understanding of what the abraham legacy is well that all depends on who it is who is a disagreement for example as to whether or not abraham was a monotheist because in the biblical text itself abraham says that his god what one of the major arguments that's put we have to say there are some people who would not be in total agreement with adam ok but that is a general consideration within that general consideration is true judaism is the oldest of the three yeah that's right and there's a tie between them all there isn't any even the muslims now who you had no there weren't any arabs and aims even as a deli or something you didn't have any truck with arrow now when i are young but when i was in grade school i was the education aged five he would take me into the mall in or have one of the people who were going to store to study with a private teacher four times a week he'd been there not that hebrew jewish history bible and then right and then he had a natural thing in history and your interest and then you did all of that work and what you know so and then what what made you start branching out and what were some of the things that were you on a certain course with that right through your dissertation time and so what did you have a certain idea his drug or if you are some sort of idea of history or i was i knew you were interested in and have they stayed with you have you've heard from that of you changed in terms of this core values or core values that were involved necessarily in the decision you made to study very intently the history of the judaic people i clearly had an idea that i wanted to study the history of judaism the history of jews in one context and the arab israeli conflict and that's the thing that's that's the thing like that a j that is right and we can say at least for the last thirty five to forty years based on a very good well grounded individually family oriented you know personal interest and so forth grounding in judaic history yes i think that's a very very good basis to come to that seems to me if i may that you're not just you know coming i think deliberate on to this lead to this but you really got a grounding in it so when when did you do what did you do you post graduate work at harvard i went i did it mostly i dealt with jewish immigration into the united states interesting yeah and what an interesting story that is yeah and where they are near that sort of thing right now and then you got more interested in the gin you've become very interested in israel shock and all israel shahak as i said is a very close associate and friend at a very close personal level shared speaking tours and so forth with noam chomsky that's right was a major figure in language that's right and they were the closest of friends and in one of his earliest tours in the united states speaking tours in israel shah toured yeah we you introduced me to him if i may say so i did i max i was privileged brought israel shock to the united states on speaking to thank you for that i appreciate that and i was able to do an interview with he's a marvelous man he'd written the book if i may let me try and recall it was jewish  history jewish religion jewish history three thousand you don't have three thousand the weight of three thousand years and he took some exception to some normally accepted notions of judaism or and so forth yeah unique view here and abroad mind he was very liberal man very authoritative one is about most authoritative is a babylonian talmud and will be able to just use the word tom with the referring to the babylonian ok so let's say it's written over a period of almost five centuries not in jerusalem of course but in baghdad in fact if we to pick more traditional judaism the major center of jewish learning it would not be jerusalem the stork lee it would be baghdad interest because the talmud became and still is the heart center of traditional judaism why is that the case that's the case because the town mud in over sixty large complicated volume explains the bible all right and in traditional or orthodox judaism as we now call it that explanation is regarded as every every bit as much the word of god as the bible itself and probably even more than the bible because  can mean the five books of moses but it also can mean and for many christians use does mean all knowledge because their contention is that all knowledge from the beginning of the world through our time period and forever is contained in the bible of their beliefs now the talmud explains the text of the torah and the ways that it could not be understood i'll give you one small  example that's a good illustration there is one phrase in the bible that says the that a jew should not cook a kid in its mother's milk goat now the question is what does that mean well talmud explains what that means and from that we get that whole part of the dietary laws that dictate that jews should not mix milk with meat dishes be done really and so without the according to traditional judaism we would not be able probably to understand what that phrase meant because so much was allegorical in metaphor well because there was an explanation and that's why for example if one even today goes into seminaries where orthodox rabbis are trained one will find that they spend the great majority of the time over a period of years studying not the bible texts per se but studying t ve is somewhere in the middle and i say somewhere in the middle because although we can specify the illogical formulation for traditional judaism or orthodox and we can specify said yeah that kind of and that's why it's the middle ground so talk about talking a little bit about this today because we want to get to the present obviously because there but i mean this idea that we've got a couple one thousand years of something you got to jig tradition was it all throughout the long winded new orthodox rabbi but they wanted to make a few reforms that were not sick theological reforms for example they wanted to put some of the german language smoke out on the street you battle and like he wanted to make some modern revisions in the liturgy they wanted to do some of those modern things and so there was a disputation between them and the more traditional as to whether that would should be done but then it grew from that and when it grew then we had some reformers who became basic feel logical reformers who then said that thomas was not necessarily the authentic word of god it was but literature it was but literature and it was commentary and it helped explain they said in the time period of the literature of a certain time period it helped explain some of the moral and ethical principles but the dictates need not be taken literally because they were not dictates of god necessarily now we had to pr we get to this secularization and to the movement of people away from studying let's say a whole life of studying torah to where they started taking up medicine science and these kind of things start applying themselves in that direction more than just studying the whole terrible there's almost no religions from other religions maybe is was that i and and is learning fundamental that is there are there there was the negativism about even studying secular subjects yeah yeah there would have been done would run like there are among fundamentalism refers to the belief of those jews who fit into this category about which we were just speaking you know who feel vast all knowledge is in the that in many ways jews are indeed the chosen people of god right and i'm sorry to say durham owes them about supreme power what mood and most if i may if you take chauvinism nationalism or in these kind of things or people tend to see themselves in the special light there's a lot of sociological movements in the world where people tend to see themselves in the best way we sing the united states of america the home of the free in the brave we stand for the best in the french feel they are the best and germans feel there but you know i don't know what and it's not necessarily unique because there are people who are believers in other religions some bum who have a similar views from similar views i would say would be that it would be the norm in human society and they have said and they continue to argue that jews that the soul of a jew example is far superior to the soul of non jews in fact the soul of non jews might be equivalent to to the so but that's part is actually so you say in this would you investigate do you news really have to we say and we we did a jewish fundamentalism in israel not to say that all the jewish fundamentalists are in israel there are jewish fundamentalists in other places including the united states  but we've focused upon jewish fundamentalism in israel we focus upon those people and we also focus upon their importance in israeli jewish society ok and do they tend to be that that term that term is it other other people that are more secular more who still feel that within the normal way in which nations tended and how themselves as the paragon of virtue there are jews who are not religious at all who are secular who well but they do not consider themselves us so the chosen people of god know they will just as you said they were better will consider themselves to be better but here we're talking about people who say they are better and they are chosen historically it's been important within judaism and in the modern time period let's say in the past half century past century since the state of not real it's been in existence this group in israel is also important not because not necessarily because of their numbers but rather because of the important positions that they have held within israeli jewish society ok now  ashkenazi that were involved in terms of what i understand it the original establishment of the state of israel was difficult years after the nd war where they're not i mean i associate it with those people that tended to be even could be seen almost as leftist and that sort of thing and well rabbis were even a one hundred years ago and much less much of the jewish community was very much against the idea of zionism because it st of all they said it had to be done in terms of torah in terms of totally peaceful and that sort of thing nobody disrupted this sort of thing and also required to my shock in order to lead people into their unorthodox and so they were opposed to it and you got a few remnants of them what they call the new torah karta who are very anti zionist now it but they are very you know very important because i an ism forms the character of the state of israel and i think that's a fair heart center of the arab israeli conflict you do i do now there is a bit of disagreement about when over a few one hundred years saying next year in jerusalem on always a lot of that is that as opposed to the propaganda that we hear was not really was not really part of the zionist movement person no no no it's also correct that into the th century and probably right up into the one thousand nine hundred and thirty s that a majority a goodly majority of orthodox traditional rabbis were opposed zionism for two reasons you hinted that one the secondary reason in the set the secondary reason was that most of the leaders not all but most of the leaders had been and were secular but the major reason was that from the not be reestablished until the messiah comes until we get the kingdom of god on earth and jews should not try to bring it about before their bath and it would be sinful to try to do heresy that's right yeah so that zionists regarded themselves designed as they didn't want secular leaders to be the head but they how did they regard themselves as zionists they had a they manufactured a different kind of interpretation  a manufacturing manufacturing machine well well no this is no i that's that's my bias all right but they came up with this interpretation their interpretation was that the messianic head in ways that we human beings cannot understand god had decided that there should be a movement for the jewish state even though most and even and god alone or that i was reading yes yes those are my no a small minority now that and so and so those rabbis then said that yes one should work for the coming of the jewish state one should work for then things changed yeah and then what happened the majority of those rabbis not us who were terribly antis ion the traditional rabbis who were terribly anti so they became part of the state and one major reason that they want to do b to be involved in the state is they wanted the state the state the government of the state of israel to finance their religious schools yes  has done so we had these people move into that contact right but then we add that segment that had been religious zionist and that segment also grew  it's been brought in it's a political matter now it's of this or do they disassociate them for her and soledad so disassociate themselves from the judeo the religious joad traditions about the gathering and gathering at the end time in that kind of stuff or into the just mak was we don't really believe in this but we want to have it we need to have as many jews as possible come into the zionist movement to work for the jewish state so if there are jews who believe in bathroom they should come in  you know the whole the whole history of thing i heard you say you thought that was the core of the problem and we're looking at things now on what is january rd of ninety or two thousand and two or three what what is your feeling about the situation as we look at that part of the world well if we're looking at arab israeli conflict more specifically israeli palestinian conflict that it's it's at one of its worst points that it's been  the that was a bad time too but so i'm saying that it's it's at a very bad level and the major reason of course as we all know is the amount of violence the numbers of people killed in the numbers of people was there some feeling we could do there is is it is it is an issue that resonates or what is the i heard you say you study some of the arab world and so forth what is it you know we've got all these different countries and so forth from the colonial are in there we've got to different or better put the essence of this conflict the essence of the conflict is innocent that doesn't mean that that's the only cause of conflict there are a variety of causes conflict between israel and  and or are being in the present and or will be in the future persecuted in all nation states wherein they are a minority i see now that's an absolute view of anti semitism because that means wherever jews are in a minority and whatever nation state they're going to be persecuted because somehow non jews if not all of them the majority of them hate jews i sat down at now that belief that's that's that's that's part of the core beliefs part two of the core belief follows from part one in zionism therefore and thereby jews need a nation state of their own where they start out as the majority hopefully of the residence but if not of the residents then of the citizens who control the state and not only do they have to start out as a majority they have to remain the majority because if they start out as a majority but then because of immigration or birth rate or something they become a minority then we revert back to the absolute nature of anti semitism now and they think the anti semitism is building into human nature well or something that allo it out because of that weight because of that because of that because of that once we get the state of israel we then have laws passed by the state of israel that still exist laws passed that grant rights and privileges to not to jews not granted to non jews not even to those one point two or one million three hundred thousand non jews who palestinians who are citizens of the state those citizens do not have all the rights and all the privileges of the jewish citizens they have no rights and privileges than then the greater number of palestinians who are not citizens but i'm saying that and why is that the case that's the case to protect the jewish nature or the zionist nature of the state of israel now israel so those are the three component that's right so israel is an exclusivist state for jews i say exclusivist because that's state by law there's no constitution nothing about the law that state and its public policy grants rights and privileges to jews not granted to non jews and that means there is by definition discrimination at least and certainly oppression of non jew couple things differently from mine israel is certainly not the islamic state yeah but the difference is in terms of conflict there are let us say one hundred and fifty or one hundred and sixty or one hundred and seventy million arabs in the middle east i t that discriminates against non muslims discriminates only against a minority of the people in the area there are five million jews in the state of israel  the state of israel but discriminates against arabs of the others discriminates against nine hundred and fifty nine thousand six hundred and ninety seven percent of the people in the area so i'm saying that even though one should say is a avoidable anti semitism that will be delivered down has been is and will be delivered down upon and by the gentile world and now historically what's new what's what's what's what's the record on the your historian what's the record are they accurate in that i mean it was certainly a common aids was nazi and not the end of anti semitism but how accurate is that that basic premise upon which they're basing their their their claim the historical record over centuries nation state some parts of nation states the answer is yeah yeah there has been there and there's a really in the know and there's still it and there's still it all right but it doesn't prove the case and not only does it not prove the case but if we take the united israel because because you're going to get it one day and so you better come now when you can get out with your lives and get out with your money and get out with your assets good for you and we also need you now they didn't want him saying it and the major proof of the putting if i can use a trite phrase is that precious few xi'an american jewish organizational zionist leaders have gone have gone have gone to israel the way you had many opportunities here and things are developing right well obviously you had all believe in the absolute theory of anti some of the absolute theory of no but i mean in a practical sense i mean you had you had certainly there was a case to be made for anti semitism in jews that means all of them are almost all of them if they haven't yet been persecuted will be they were they were they they would be now here i think it's correct to say that the greater number of jews understand that there's anti semitism also have believed and do believe that the best way to combat anti semitism is with in a relatively democratic framework such influence polic it was not but it was god any of them were in the middle east many of them fit nicely into the side of the did well they were merchants they were this and that and they don't play so that was also the case that was also the case and the thing about the thing about the jewish the anti jewish attitude  was i mean and we were i got time but what was the source of the anti is semitic fervor or that that motivated nazi germany in the way that it did it was beyond rationality was beyond understanding where in the world did that come from you know we've had a whole we've got about twenty  germany it's been unique but we also need to point out where did it occur it the drought occur that's right it occurred in the heart center of christian europe did not occur in the heart center of the islamic middle east all right that's interesting that's interesting in of itself but that there could be that kind of an animosity so we have the situation now we've got a few minutes left what your prognostication for events developing in what is now you know the middle east and what even a little longer i do think though that in my lifetime and in your life we will see a negotiated compromise settlement of the arab israeli conflict you do i do a of the state of israel and the nd is the terribly i mean right and negative leadership in both the israeli jewish community and unfortunately in the palestinian beings who are mothers and fathers and the time comes when they no longer want their children killed and wounded well that's all right that can be understood in any kind of assistance correct going on but is there something you know you you said there's something unique i mean bad leadership can be all over the world with bad leadership in argentina is falling apart ad leadership hinders you said that there was that that hindered that's on all sides that could be in the united states as well we've got pretty bad leadership it could be seen as a certain kind of way that kind of a question is there  israeli zionist state and a palestinian state instead of that i think that the solution will come when we finally have come to a majority of the people on both the palestinian israeli jewish side who say in this area of palestine we need to have a democratic secular state that by law grants and guarantees rights and privileges to all of the citizens there to that kind of state that kind of state will be the solution that would be a that would be a wrenching change for a great number of people now are committed to zionism in the way it is being exacted we've had we know you big change we've had would bring that  zion inside what change there has to be on the islamic or arab side or they're going to have they're going to have to they're going to have to be compromise in the changes there the hatred that has come about in terms of the whole context of this arab israeli conflict the hatred of jews and the anti semitism that has actually increased it's actually increased in the arab world in the last decade that is going to have to be diminished and what will cause  get older and older well you know because you know what i will hopefully live a few more years or less hope so well that we've only just scratched the surface of a huge subject but i really think for for helping to educate me a little bit particular and some of the day history we want to understand we should go back to roots understand these has passed on he was a great intellectual force for improving the human condition we just passed in recent months from israel thank you norton for coming in thank you around the service of this huge subject we are in conversations invite you to tune in will be coming back again next