when he was seventeen years old he was active in the cuban liberation movement he was exiled by the spanish government he spent most of his life in exile and looting twelve years in new york city he wrote seventeen books poetry novel polemics he's one of the greatest writers in the spanish language at the age of forty two have the words mean i am a truthful man from the land of the palm trees and before dying i want to share these poems  soft green my poems are also flaming crimson and my poems are like a wounded form seeking refuge in the forest and the last live with the poor people of this earth i want to share my fate the streams of the mountain pleases me more  welcome once again to the radical imagination i'm host jim browser i'm a sociologist the john jay college here in new york we've all seen the data we all have a pretty general idea of the extent of global and national economic inequality and rates of poverty oak warning to groups like ox fam the over two hundred and fifty billion dollars net income of the richest one hundred dollars billionaires in the world would be enough to make extreme poverty history four times over the richest one percent has increased its income by sixty percent in the last twenty years with the financial crisis excel orating rather than slowing the process members of the richest one percent are estimated to use as much as ten thousand times more carbon than the average us citizen in two hundred and one thousand five hundred and forty three point one million people or thirteen and a half percent of the population lived in poverty in the united states one full percentage point higher than in two thousand and seven the year before the two thousand and eight recession six percent of the population are over  thousand people live in deep poverty with incomes at only fifty percent of their poverty threshold and thirty three percent of the population are one hundred and five million people live close to poverty with incomes less than two times that of the poverty threshold the u s d a estimates that thirteen percent are close to sixteen million of us households were food insecure or having difficulty at some time during the year providing anough food for all their members due to a lack of resources and finally even more heartbreakingly twenty percent of all children close to one dollar as if you'd be close to fifteen million children live in poverty about one in every five children and the simple truth is that there is no absolutely no economic political rational technical issue of distribution scientific our psychological reason our justification for this reality which is a source of unconscionable human misery in america and around the world the issue of poverty is increasingly being seen finally in moral terms as well yet most of us individually and as a country seem to be in various states as cornel west would put it of moral numbness apathy blackout zia denial and constipation i'm thrilled to invite to the show today a friend and comrade who has just published a book always with us what jesus really said about the poor is a major new work that addresses a crucial point we hear over and over and over in the poverty debate it's the argument that the poor have always been with us and always will some even deserving to be in their place such of the ways of the world of the human condition edged in stone and perhaps even in heaven too so welcome lizzy o'hara's the founder of the poverty initiative and co director of the cairo center at unity logical seminary and the author of this fabulous book always with us what jesus really book and for engaging in a conversation absolutely absolutely so this central question why has christianity been in the forefront in using the bible using christianity to justify oppression is not new i think if we have to look at moments in history you know the abolitionist movement comes to mind where slave holders were talking about slaves obey your masters they put together a bible that did not include the exodus that did not include the profits that had no man mention of jesus's sermon where he says i have come to bring good news to the poor and release and announce release to the captives and let the slaves go free so there was a theological justification that was dominant in society during slavery  but you know that's always also been contested for as many christians as who use the bible and their religious doctrine and tradition to justify oppression they are freedom fighters who who look back into their religious texts and find stories of poor and oppressed people banding together with god on their side to do what is right and so in abolition there was harriet moses tubman imo that's what she was called right i mean that's what she were for it was referred to you know if it's just for two seconds here because our summer viewers longstanding viewers from a jewish prophetic tradition talking about right to a very much so and so is so if we if we talk then about this text the poor we with you always it's a text that i've been involved in anti poverty organizing for about twenty five years of my life and there is not a week that goes by in my life where somebody usually christians but folks from all spectrums all faiths atheists will say when i say that i'm a part of a movement context is jesus is having a dinner with his friends it's right in what christians call the passion narrative so it's right before jesus is going to be betrayed by juda handed over to the roman authorities to be crucified as an enemy of the state because that's what chris affection this it's not a punishment for common criminals or murderers it's and it's it's a political and think that they need to stop this movement of the poor this kind of poor people's campaign from a two thousand years ago so he's having dinner with his friends and a woman comes in and anoint him what she does is she has this very fancy oil and what she does is she pours it on his head that's you know expensive very expensive like so for instance in the gospel of matthew but the story also happens in a similar context in the gospel of john and in the gospel of mark so it's a story and in luke but the passage the the line the poor with you always isn't in luke but but it's in this it's worth three hundred inari and a day laborers wage back in in the roman empire about two thousand years ago was about a one dinar e a day so you're talking a year's wages now is that five hundred dollars and it's a year's wages of the poorest people in our world or is it you know fifty one thousand dollars but it's a lot of money and it's so much money that that the people that hang out with jesus who are mostly poor themselves are not used to this kind of well being in their midst and when she anoint him on his head on his head what she does is follow exactly the the prescription that is in the hebrew bible for what it is to anoint a profit it was obviously a son in law and so it's a sign of honor it's a sign of  respect and love it's what you do when you are going to bury somebody but it's also what you do to say that this person is a prophet or a king or a messiah nothing else has to happen there's no like written proclamation that is that that goes along with it there's not what has to happen is that someone comes a prophetic leader comes and pours moran which is the  have anointed this person to carry out just the seeking work and to be a ruler set aside to to organize the needs of society around the poor because that's actually what that's what christ is right so jesus christ christ isn't a last name it's a it's a title it means the anointed one and and the only place where jesus is anointed in the gospel of matthew is what this woman does with this fancy point so well his friends must have been taken aback a way were surely taken aback by this and what seems to be the right word because what what their response isn't you know being really excited and being really like amazed that they're now there are their leader has been recognized in their presence as a messiah as a king  instead they they say what did you just do they say why this waste but the the greek word that they that that is used is apple a a an apple a actually doesn't just mean waste that  pastor in fact and so to say that you destroyed something by anointed jesus as christ i mean that that just doesn't work for me but but but i think you also have to kind of recognize why they would be saying that because then what they continue to say is because you could have sold this ointment for a very large sum of money and then given the proceeds to the  oh so as charity i mean so so when i read that and i think actually for a generation people have read that as charity but it's also not it's kind of what we think we're supposed to do in the face of poverty you earn a lot of money or you get money or you get something fancy and then the proceeds of that you give back to the poor but how was this woman dressed was she so we know nothing about the  don't tell us her name they don't tell us where she's from and she kind of comes out and nowhere elise and matthew's version now when this happens in john's gospel she's one of jesus's friends and leaders but but but in matthew and mark we don't know anything about her now scholars are are you know make lots of speculations about who she is to have something worth a year's wages many folks think she must have a lot of money or be a wealthy person and there's definitely a lot of instances in history of jesus attracting not just poor people even though the jesus movement in early christianity is a movement of the poor but but it involves everyone right so so there is there is a good chance that she's a wealthy woman i'm actually one to think that that isn't the case i think it's a lot more possible that she is very poor perhaps a prostitute and perhaps  she has gone this month this point meant in unsavory ways and that that could be a part of why the disciples and jesus as friends are having such a strong reaction to her and what she does because also the context of where this is happening it's dinner but it's dinner in bethany now bethany in hebrew means house of the poor beth anie poor  that's and he's also historically about twelve miles from jerusalem he's in jerusalem for the passover holiday where he has gone in and caused quite a disturbance and star he's turned over the tables in the temple money and and said that you know this is supposed to be a house of worship for all people and not den of of robbers and he's you know entered into jerusalem on a donkey  at the same time as the roman imperial guard has entered into jerusalem and chariots and horses and then in these very grand things and he enters in on a very lowly animal maybe causing a mockery of of those again how is it connected to the poor so so so it was a type will say yes why did you why did she destroy this we could of we could have basically participated in dominick economics of and we could have helped the poor with the proceeds of selling on the market and jesus it says jesus aware of this like so he he knows what's going on here and he says you always have the poor with you but you will not always have me now we have taken that line out of context we don't know the history and the teaching we you're talking about what couple of verses are some of the most radical verses and instructions in the entire bought bible and what those instructions are is that you're supposed to release slaves you're supposed to forgive debt and you're supposed to lend out money even know even though you know you'll never get it paid back and generally it's it's like that every seven years leading up to the every seven times seven or so the jubilee is every fifty years but but there's a something in prayer in place that every seven years so that nobody falls into kind of poverty slavery you know deep in debt adventure and and so this is this it and then it so it does that and then it says and th deuteronomy fifteen for there will be no poor person among you if you follow the commandments that i'm giving to you today and those commandments are to release slaves to only lend out money and the fact that they were not or would not follow god's grace and then what's that the the poor will never cease to be in the land right so and so do so this is a it's a quote so when jesus says the poor with you always he's not condoning poverty he's reminding people to go back to those hebrew scriptures and and again we might not be familiar with this but those disciples around him would have known when he says the poor with you always it's a quote he's reminding them of the scriptures that tell them how they're supposed to organize society around the needs of everybody and how it's only in disobedience to god and god's commandments that we will have poverty no need to be the radicalized them in that sense and how do they respond to that jim so i  mean i think that's that's a good question right so so he kind of gets on some level the last word here because he he says the problem with you always but you will not always have me what she's done is a good work a mitzvah and  she's prepared me for my burial like he's trying to prepare them to know that he's about to be killed as a revolutionary and it's their job to keep that work going and and then the thing happens immediately after the story and he says what will be done what she has done will be remembered bush will be done in memory of her now so for christians there's this very important tradition when we take communion and when we serve communion which is that we do that in memory of jesus right now when so it's but but it is switched up to matthew there's no place where jesus talks about doing things in memory of him in matthew it's about doing things in memory of her and what she has done and what she has done a representation of the poor it is and the  radical you know this radical disruption right of of the current economic political status quo and here he is a poor homeless movement leader who is coming together across the nations to build a movement for prosperity for all he's seen as a threat to the roman empire and he's going to be killed as such she understands that and says we live in a different realm we don't live in the roman empire we're building god's empire and god's empire is a place where the poor are st that we were stuck there and then we're going to do this in memory of her and and then the next thing that happens is the judas goes to find a way to betray him so clearly something so radical happens when he's anointed and when he reminds them of the way that their jewish tradition has taught them they're supposed to live and how they're supposed to take care of the poor in society that is when he has to be turned over to he just he's too dangerous he's too dangerous for those who are perpetuating the system exactly part of it exactly and in doing to me this is a beautiful story i mean more or just out of holy week for christians for in towards pentecost and in and those that is really important i mean for us to be going back and thinking about why was  really killed and what then does his resurrection mean so in matthew when jesus is crucified what happens is that whereas he dies the two of the prophets who came before are opened up they break open and when he's resurrected it says those those profits are resurrected alongside of him and so instead of this traditional credit jewish and prophetic tradition the only freedom fighter are also resurrected they're also back to continue the fight and that all of the people around uses are charged with continuing to build them a just society right and so as you are as this is doing well and this is no way this is the story this is this is the heart of what christianity is supposed to be you know we're supposed to follow you know a poor a person who is seen as an enemy of the state who comes to bring good news to the poor and understanding of those in prison and so what we have done of course in our society is put more people in prison kept together longer than the other developed countries and we are not we say we are a christian country today a christian tradition but that tradition means retribution revenge punishment cruelty brutality so in the name of what law and order right or this is what you need to do to keep people in the law and in person as you say that's not what the central message was here exactly and so you know it's just we're all living a lawyer was that it you know and in fact we've internalized that lie so much that what we think we're supposed to do to be good people of faith is is as has been to plea severed from what actually the biblical message  that's what your book is so important because it it traces so many of these references and it's just an incredible journey that you take us to thank you yeah i mean so i mean but i think it's just it's so for our time today if you know i believe deeply that we can and need to end poverty but i don't think it's possible for us to do so until people believe that it's possible to do so and a huge barrier to that is people's interpretation of this passage and i think we've well make it clear right this is not just for christians no says people of goodwill of whatever background or nonbelievers right this is perhaps to get people to deal much more humanely with the human condition indeed and and see the places where our society rationalizes a nd justifies you know the existence and the proliferation of poverty and oppression and racism and incarceration that that it then tries to use whatever it can important to then go back and and reinterpret and reclaim those sources and so you know the bible is one of them the constitution and the declaration and pendants of another and other sacred texts and traditions are are also included in this you know that that that this is not as you said just about you know getting christians to do the right thing though so i would like for christians to do the right thing i think we all would  for you know to change some of the what's going on right now where a small group of christians have hijacked what morality is and have defined it as things that the bible has very little to say about and away from what the vast majority of the of the contents of of the scriptures have to say which is about caring for the poor and for the orphan and for the widow and for the stranger and for low wage workers i mean is this is  begun to deal with the problem because these are reforms that aren't really meant to fundamentally restructures things but oftentimes talking down to be in the academic world designed to know moving into a building a human rights movement right and he has this quote he uses it a number of places one of the places in the beyond vietnam speech that he says a year to the day when he's assassinated and think there's a good chance that dr king was thinking about this passage from matthew when he says this about like that true compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar but but restructuring that that produce beggars because so much of charity and that can be you know you know small food feeding programs  very large programs that are about you know lifting people up out of hard times but but so much of charity has become a part of keeping the status quo and giving those who are giving somewhat appeased or feeling good about him and so so and so in in in the roman empire i mean i i've really seen like by studying that like a beginnings of a very strong critique from jesus in the bible of of the way that charity system dominated then now it was a different economy there were different forms of patronage and and and these kinds of things but but but what was going on and is going on in this passage is you know the dominant economic notion of like you know selling on the market and then having you know a little bit of almsgiving a little bit of charity to kind of keep people from really erupting towards the deserving right well and then there's our dog biting you know the deserving from the undeserving right i mean that is i mean that that isn't just something we're doing in our society today it's something that you know throughout history we can see those in power figure out ways to keep people divided including and especially around these lines of of you know you know maybe kids are deserving they didn't do anything but but then the implication is that their parents are the reason that they're poor not that they're that their wages have been stolen not that there are structures that keep people from being able to to adequately provide for their families and so so this kind of you know dear reserving versus undeserving you know dichotomy is is a major one and as are a lot of different ways of keeping people divided so as to not be able to claim that we don't need you know these these problems of i mean these are the i mean economic brought about more concentrated wealth exactly and so instead if we were here follow you know again dr king in that we need a radical revolution of values right i mean that that that right now our priorities are wrong and we put more priority in you know protecting stuff than people's lives and this is you know this this critique that king has is similar to the critique that jesus has throughout the bible and that the prophets have throughout that he prescriptions and that other faith leaders have throughout history we can also be used in a variety of ways right we new yorkers we ride the fling a coin or give them anything so one could say what do you think the mayor of the in the subway system is trying to accomplish there are they talk about well we need to have a structural program to really get rid their problem right just exacerbating the problem by doing this i mean i do think that the stereotypes that exist right about who is poor and why people are poor just run very deep and so it is just you know very dominant position that people are poor people are homeless people are without adequate medical care because it's their own fault and and that people are lazy craz ism right i mean i mean and that if we look at the history of of how how you know christians in power in society have then again i mean it's similar to how we started off you know folks will use what they have at their disposal to justify the current condition it's not that those are inherently what our sacred texts are talking about but that you know so whether it's the protestant work ethic or whether it's you know the horatio alger stories you know all of these are our constructs to to demonize you know people that are not in power and to divide us so as to not be able to figure out ways to to organize society in a more just and equal way and so i just think that that that i mean when it that the idea of ending poverty or the idea of ending you know dominant forms of oppression is possible but but we've been been so marginalized so divided that those those notions of how we do that are are not as the middle ear at the show here right two thousand and eighteen is the th anniversary of the poor people's campaign that was the last crusade that remember dr king was on when he was assassinated and there's no way to really commemorate such a campaign if the work is unfit finished and so the cairo center at union theological seminary and dozens of grassroots organizations in the gulf coast in flint michigan sound county alabama in minneapolis minnesota in vermont you know in all kinds of places in el paso and california i mean just across this whole country there are grassroots leaders led by those most impacted by the problems that they're trying to solve who are calling for us to revitalize for to relaunch and to reignite this poor people's campaign and remind us a little about what king was do you do bring hundreds of thousands of poor people around the country to come to washington and yeah so he called in one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven for three thousand for people from across the country to come to washington ntil you know the structures of society said yes when they want to say now that he was talking about something very deep and radical and so what what folks  have been doing around the country and repairs with the british and under the leadership of reverend dr william barber and the cairo center and saint cofa which is a organization started by to get artists and celebrities involved in the movement and you know literally dozens of different grassroots organizations are saying that in two thousand and seventeen to eighteen we're we're building a new portables campaign and so we are in the process of setting up truth commissions in revival tours and and thinking about what forty days of action are going to look like when the others bring starting a mother's day of two thousand and eighteen and so folks should check out poor people's campaign dot org as well as the cairo center dot org to figure out ways to get involved because what we're calling for is this time not just having everything in n well indeed in raid but that you know we also you know need to build this movement from the ground up and you know from the perspective of of being a biblical scholar and a pastor i also think when i  look at what jesus was doing two thousand years ago he was building a portable campaign and so you know it's carrying on the legacy of king but it's also going back to my deepest religious tradition which which call for you know organizing kind of great moment of social transformation in our country's history and different other nations histories across the world people always think that something radical is not possible you know the  proposals around slavery were that you know you should pay people a little bit more and but it but but you know or if we even talk about the black freedom struggles in the civil rights movement i mean you know mongomery campaign folks weren't actually making demands to end segregation it was to to you know to integrate the buses just a little bit longer nicer have more stops in black communities have more black drivers right and then when they rejected that then well hey but and so all the way and so it's always when things look like they're impossible that then something new is ready to be born and i think we're living you know in those moments again and the question is are we going to miss this moment are we going to are we going to be diverted and distracted and are we going to just put piecemeal put solutions together that won't actually solve the real health care crisis in our country the real housing crisis in our country the real poverty crisis in our nation in our world and and his world gone mad on war right i mean actually and and so are we going to have piecemeal little charity solution to that or are we going to actually realize that you know to be true to our faith traditions to be true to something more powerful than just any one of us that that there's nothing to do bible and the betterment of us all it's what it's all about it's all and proving the conditions of us all not just a few thank you again there's so much for being on the radical imagination this is jim  you next week on the radical imagination for now we're going to be ending with fight the power by public enemy in the tradition of resistance and struggle just one hundred years population the freed the slaves two hundred thousand people converge on the nation's capital to rally for civil rights they come by train they come by bus and by ear they come from the north the south east and west they come united in one cause urge congress to pass a civil rights bill to end for ever and the blight of racial inequity by eleven's already there are more than two hundred thousand dollars strong in the mold a crowd that is bigger than the most optimistic forecasts now there's a growing animation it seems as if the demonstrators were finding strength in each other and discovered their cause was a bomb arrests in washington were below normal police attribute this to the fact that for the st time in thirty years you couldn't even buy a beer in washington the civil rights marches needed no stimulants like that they provided their own songs that range from the sacred to the hillbilly with the one recurring theme poll twenty million negro