inventor and so forth and he's written a book i want to show right here at the outset the age of spiritual machines and when computers exceed human intelligence a subtitle an extremely interesting book an extremely interesting book that provided i think a pretty effective roadmap to the one nine hundred ninety s and so tried to think about the future in a disciplined way a lot of people that talk about the future haven't really thought about it seriously and they'll think about only one or two trends in technology  about one or two read a ration that's progress and generally feel as somebody to talk about the twenty first century they'll talk about the year two thousand and four and find it hard to think beyond that one of the key issues it's been a heck of a year the electron was developed edison and all of these kind of things that have happened now and then that technology in turn is put against in a you know i guess in a certain sense i get systems with thinking that's put against the longest we've human history it's a pretty incredible time it's an old cliche but these really are amazing times in terms of particularly the extension of human consciousness that technology is is introducing is into the twenty first century i think will be very significant in terms of human history or even in term of the history of evolution on this planet i mean there will be an epochal advance in the twenty first century which is the emergence of machines more intelligent than people in all of their broad diverse and we have machines today that are more intelligent people up their net their expertise is now the difference in the twenty first century is that these narrow expertise are going to broaden and ultimately cover the entire broad range of human capability and once a computer achieves that level equal to human intelligence it's necessarily going to soar past it for several reasons one thing computers can share their knowledge i mean if i spend years learning french or read one piece i can't download that knowledge do you have to it's right at the same painstaking way that i did the one we teach when we spend years teaching a computer how to understand that's a human speech we've done what's one computer has mastered that skill it can be transferred to millions of other computers more or less instantly yes so every computer ultimately will have read all the world's but it sure will be a master of all human machine civilization knowledge and computers are much faster than people i mean circuits even today are ten million times faster than under which are very  slow computers today already seated humans in their memory i mean the computer can member billions of things very accurately i'm hard pressed remember head for a phone number to see exactly so once you can combine these computers ability to share their knowledge with a flexibility and subtlety and depth of intelligence in all the broad demands that we excel in this going to be a very formidable combination and we can talk about how we're going to get there but that's really one of the clear thresholds and i think that's an advance no less significant than the emergence of human intelligence some thousands of centuries ago right is it in to be alive i mean it could be in a certain sense we might be thinking in terms of these technological extensions of our conscious we might be coming in in an evolution of this concept of punctuated equilibrium where they have a new species appear and we appeared i don't know when it is there's some argument about it maybe some people say two hundred thousand years ago homo sapiens sapiens appeared out of africa and so what but that we may be coming to a town we've been gestating in this human technological interface and we're about to come into a new relationship even on a cosmic plane but one of the points i make in the book is that technology for technology evolves at an accelerating pace yes the same thing was true of the evolution of life forms it took billions of years for the first cells to form things sped up after that it's only a few hundred thousand years for human beings to emerge from a homosapien forebear as technology really was the next stage of evolution technology took over from the evolution of life forms and then the next stage was took several tens of thousands of years for us to figure out that if we shop in both sides of a stone it would create a sharp edge right but the key thing about technology is that we made a record of technology and these innovations stuck and then we used each generation of technology as the foundation to create the next which enables technology to accelerate and now we have major paradigm shifts in a few years time i mean the world wide web didn't exist a few years ago so technology is accelerating and one of the foundations and twenty first century machines themselves will generate design and the next generation technology is going to continue to accelerate and we see sort of a  tial growth of computing didn't start with integrated circuits it started back in one thousand nine hundred i put all these computers on what's called a logarithmic graph was a straight line means exponential growth and i expected to get a straight line i didn't get a straight line i got something i got actually another exponential and there's actually exponential growth in the rate of exponential growth we would we were doubling computer power every three years at the beginning of the if you see them yeah i well we will get it and we'll put it into the this this is actually a conservative projection because this only continues one level of exponential growth it doesn't have the second level but even with just this conservative projection a thousand dollars of computation will equal the human brain by nine hundred twenty twenty twenty by twenty sixty thousand dollars computers will equal the computation of all human brains on earth wow ten billion human brains that's amazing and it was it was coming from from a just getting started kind of pattern just it seems almost yesterday i grew up my mother wan in a contest carrying an egg on a spoon and she carried the egg to the race and she got back first and the body else and the big prize that you got was you got to get a ride in one of those new automobiles you know i mean it's all been happening within our  lifetime in an incredibly increasing way and that the rate of that increasing is increasing all that and that's becoming apparent to people i mean i only have to open your morning paper to see the enormous growth in computation more and more powerful computers for less and less book about the reasons for that the resources of this exponential trend are essentially without limit because we build each new generation of technology on the last necessarily grows exponentially it's what i call the law of accelerating returns yes essentially without end i'd also talk about technologies that we can touch and feel today that will provide this kind of capability for example nanotubes which is the ability to build a three dimensional lattice is of carbon atoms and we can build computers at the if you build one inch cube of nanotube circuitry it would be at least a million times more powerful than the human brain that's that's in hardware we also have to talk about the software can someone with could say all right so you have this basic computing capacity memory and raw processing power billions of times more powerful than a human brain but that doesn't guarantee you human level intelligence we have to organize those resources we have to in doubt them with the knowledge and skills that human beings have but one of the scenarios i talk about in the book is reverse engineering the human brain and we're starting to do that now reverse engineering the human brain and that's scanning the human brain and seeing how it works and then we're coming to understand the neuro transmitters of the kind of things that we didn't know thirty you have some of the answer mendis amount of information we have and where we have any technologies we can look inside your brain a mind and see individual nerve cells today and see them for the next generation or allow us to see the wiring between the neurons see the neurotransmitter strengths the snap to collapse you know all of the relevance salient thinking details within twenty within thirty years we'll be able to scan and say my brain take a make a map of every single detail of a sort of a picture in time of all on consciousness we've been debating that for two thousand years you know dialogues i'll say this a about consciousness it's been an abstract philosophical debate up until now but in the twenty first century we will me bodies created through nanotechnology and they will claim to be conscious and we will believe them that's really more of a political prediction that a philosophical right direction that we can still debate it seems conscious that x is a conscious it's compelling but is there really anybody home there and in my view there's all the midline no way to really tell because there's no there's no objective way to enter the subjective experience of another entity we can look at things going on in its brain we can look at its behavior we can measure all kinds of objective things and we can make inferences from that but we cannot really objectively measure the subjective experience of another entity goes to the very nature of the words objective and subjective we have to base today on animals conscious people really disagree about that some people say you have no that and i don't hire animals are conscious i think that that's also human centric reaction we say a and that claim to be conscious and to have emotions and have spiritual experiences we will come to believe that they're conscious that's not a phones off of the statement that they are but we will believe that they are and they will be very look at their personal careers i come on give me a break that's it's not a spiritual machine well computers today are knots at the level of human capability there's still today a million times simpler the human brain than the human brain but the key issue of the about the future is that this is going to creep up on us i mean i'll just use an analogy which is cast for us experience with deep blue yeah i'm not saying that chess is equal to human intelligence it's a very narrow discipline but this is an analogy llectual activity including the whole range of human capabilities if we look at computers today we can say well they're not like human they're much more brittle they don't have the subtlety such as parallel processing that's going to change power processing is one trend that's going to bring us there into into a more a more balanced kind of systems approach that i mean our consciousness our computers will be built differently we're starting to do that now the work i do in pattern recognition really build systems that are much more like the human brain we're not going to be building machines that do one thing at a time we're not going to build intelligence just by programming logical rules we're going to build systems that can evolve their own answers as can emerge the way they do in the human brain through self organization so these machines will read the roads where the children grow up in the web and look at what's going on they have a shot into the world and draw their own observations and learn about the world but then this very powerful aspect of you know machine intelligence will come to bear which is as these machines learn things they can share that knowledge with each other instantly right exactly we don't have a quick down with massive dimensions right we don't have a quick downloading port  i mean we have we have channels into our brain but they're all fairly slow band with and the only way we can sort of run something is sort of the the painstaking methods that we have this thought windows on the subway here in new york city we had teenagers going and i thought my lord you have to teach each one milton jakes you know you know what and with the computer system you could just take in the library of congress right now i think i think it's worth pointing out  that we're not going to have the machines over here on the side of the room in the in the humans on that side this is not an alien invasion of intelligent machines but some of this is emerging from within our human machine civilization ok we're already today quite dependent on computers are intimately integrated into our civilization and all the computers today stopped so it was a shall we grind to a halt they might say well of course that's true we're very dependent on them that wasn't true just twenty years ago that's right that's what makes it amazing now so in twenty years we have changed the nature of our civilization to be totally dependent on machines we can no longer pull the plug or as we go forward that connection between humans and machines is going to become even more intimate right down to putting these machines cochlear implant and it actually does what the auditory processing circuits of his brain would have done and it works so that's a neural imply we have no implants for parkinson's disease for cerebral palsy recently there was no im put in the brain of a totally paralyzed individual who cannot control his environment by directly communicating mentally with his computer and those direct implant your reading machine was one that was an extension of  doubt that was an external device that you had out loud to a blind person right right right right we're going to be putting these computers in our brains within thirty years no implants won't be for disabled individuals will all be using them to enhance our perceptions  based will be built on the design of human thinking some or be copies of specific individuals some won't be copies of a specific person but will be built based on our insight as to how intelligent works from having studied the human brain and read creating those designs and we'll be getting better sense of the design of the human brain from the knowledge of biological sciences that are evolving so these things are evolving not only cybernetics fields and computers but other fields as well i mean it's jim's kind of way we're coming to understand the whole pattern a logical or an extended technological capability in a knowledge base kind of way that simply isn't present the anything in human history brain scanning is something that we've started within twenty years we'll have scanned the human brain and really have a complete picture of how it works genome i mean not that it seems daunting i mean the project you just mentioned the general project seem daunting twelve years ago when it was announced that within fifteen years we would scan the entire human genetic code that seemed incredible and one of the reasons it seemed incredible was if you if you determined how long it would take to scan the whole jeno at the speed with wh could do it twelve years ago it would take in ten thousand years the speed but it didn't take it took fifteen years as projected and why because the speed accelerated you know it was expected to and it did well ok we're scanning human brain today it's somewhat slow but that's going to accelerate like everything else with a lot of accelerating returns we talk about in the book you know and certainly within twenty twenty five years we'll have scanned the entire human brain and have a template for how it works and be able to create computers in man's image which is to say based on the design of human thinking so we'll have computers that are human like because they're going to be in some cases direct copies in some cases copies that have been modified and extended we'll have computers inside our own brains that's a pretty intimate mixture of human capability  synergistic good things synergy you don't need to use that word synergy or synergistic thinking the way fuller did you see a distinction between your notion of it seems the economic term of accelerating return as opposed to let's say the idea of a synergistic a priori mysterious kind of design the buckminster fuller used to postulate ontologically or i don't know whether i think what father was talking about as similar what i'm talking about i'm talking i'm talking about evolution you know evolutionary processes create more and more order and i talk about in the book what order is because it's not just the opposite of randomness because the opposite of randomness could be a regular pattern like a checkerboard pattern which is has no information either so order is information that serves a purpose but evolution creates deeper more beautiful more intricate designs over time which is the opposite of what the second law of thermodynamics predicts which is more and more chaos and random this evolution requires two resources in order to keep going run its own order since that's always growing that's a resource in inexhaustible supply and the other is it needs chaos from which to draw its evolutionary process not only grows without end but also accelerates over time and we've seen that from the billions of years it took for the first cells to form to the hundreds of thousands of years it took for humans to form the tens of thousands of years it took for the first technology to form to only to several years now it takes for a whole new technologies to be created and as we go to the next century these generations of technology will get faster and faster alternately the machines will be creating their own next all coming now and this thing is coming and you have also if i may you have this analogy i think for this story has been told about the doubling of the grain on the chessboard and they double it up and we're just coming to a point where that is finally catching up to us in a way that's going to bring changes that are very hard for people who are sort of ensconced in the the everyday reality that we walk around in now to understand or to be able to contemplate what we ought to start contemplating that is the fact that is emerging coming around to talk about the advent of chess and he asked the emperor as a rod for just one grain of rice the first two grains of rice in a second and four on the third and so on and they have nothing never said well sure and one version of the story is in the upper since the first operating computers about thirty two squares through the chessboard and it's been interesting but it's the second half of the chess where we're now entering we're just coming to which is where things really get interesting  it's that analogy showing the power of exponential growth exponential growth starts out very slowly nobody notices that computers were doubling in power every three years and then to you is for the first sixty is of the century but nobody noticed it because  people haven't really noticed it in general until the eighty's and most of the people of the ninety's exponential growth starts slowly but then it explodes and that period of explosive growth is now is now i the transmitted again this is not hard wired in a certain consciousness or human conscience and there is that there is a certain in decisiveness or a different you know with these neurotransmitters not as though there's a direct connect the strengths of all the connections are constantly be that's how we learn and we don't fully understand all the local brain processes involved in very writing it's very complex on the other hand the brain is created with a design template from the genoa which is actually much simpler than the brain by a factor of a million at least there's only about six billion bits in the gentleman fits it fits on one cd rom without compression really yeah but your whole family on the d right and from that small amount of information the brain is created and there's a whole sort of evolutionary process where different connections fight for survival and the ones that make better sense of the world survive  and we're going to design our computers that way and i work in a project now using a combination of evolutionary algorithms and all that's to do stock market analyses and picking stocks to buy and sell so we'll be able to do we'll be able to get where there's already an hansford of that process with the computers and what we're going to be able to get to the point where we're going to be able to get the deep blue or some sort of us isn't this going to pick the stock and make the financial decisions better than those people who are making those stocks and giving by these evolutionary algorithms co write and trade and program trading is different than simple rules and that's probably fifty percent of the market but i'm talking about the actual rules are being devised by their know and that's an evolutionary algorithms and these systems and i'm building one right now we look at all of the data in the market there's a vast about right on the internet and it we create a million little investors and they compete with each other in a simulated evolution and we go through ten thousand generations of evolution at the end they devise these very intricate rules which find some lava trudge up insanities in the market that a human investor could never come up with i mean humans can come up with these various rules and they have some merit but the computers look at all the information so exhaustive late in every possible way of looking at and come up with very intricate rounds that find a subtle arbitrage opportunity may only exist for a short time and he would never discover that and the amount of money that's being invested by these evolutionary thems is itself growing exponentially it was two percent last year it was one percent the year before it's five percent watch it will be eight percent next year it's going to take over the market i mean it's it's already the case that these algorithms can do a better job within certain parameters that then humans can and getting more sophisticated they will be the bulk of investing they will so that they do and these are the decisions that are so guiding if that's the right term the humans are now in a net value or return and their financial values are very important also they're going to become part of the system by which this operated spaceship group is going to be operating the decisions are going to be made by these highly enhanced computer  recognizing those expert systems or am i off base on that no problems are different technologies expert systems refers to a methodology where human codes rules and the computer follows the rules so ultimately more powerful technique is neural nets and other types of techniques where solutions are not programmed by human programmers but emerge from within the computer and he says that any pattern recognition right i mean that's my field is pattern recognition yeah and we typically don't rely that much on expert systems we let the computer kind of organize itself and discover its own rules by being exposed to a massive amount of information i wonder if it could use a term i mean if i'm wrong set me straight you would because you're more involved in this certainly than i am sure but when you talk about when we talk about cybernetics i don't know when or maybe it wasn't a thing we have this term is a common term that a lot of people feel information overload there's so much coming out with the internet we have all this information is coming information overload in a certain sense within a system permits or they in a cybernetic i would say permits pattern recognition of the whole system much more efficiently than you've been able to do or effectively than you have you think we're going to the point where we can have a comprehensive understanding of a whole system of let's say the human scenario or the biological or the evolutionary scenario more than we've ever been able to do and that the information overload with permitting pattern recognition and a level and i don't want to use the word transcendent but at a level higher level than that which we have traditionally in the historical pattern been confined or constrained by or you can a lot of what i'm saying i think you bring up a few different issues y know we're going to learn much more about human intelligence ultimately we will have a map of the whole thing the whole illusion of universal consciousness understanding of human intelligence and how it works but doesn't mean that one human brain will be able to really comprehend all of it but all of that will be understood by the human machine civilization and will be used as a template for creating these intelligent machines another point i think you were alluding to is in terms of information overload is the pace of change and that is a very challenging thing for ready for people to deal  with the kind of bailing for us as the computers are becoming more like humans and communicating more like humans and one hundred fifty years on the you know technicians are right cause behind glass windows used computers and then the personal computer brought language so that your grandmother can can use a computer and doesn't really don't need to understand anything about computers they'll become communicate much more like humans go through the twenty first century they'll be very much like humans because their entire intelligence will be based on a copy of human intelligence greatly extended but the pace of change in the world is going to continue to accelerate the skill ladder is going to continue to rise ultimately beyond the capabilities of today's on enhanced human will i mean if you look at the whole trend of automation being what limiting jobs at the bottom of the scale that are creating new jobs at the top of the scale so the ladder moves up we've kept pace with that through education we spend ten times more in constant dollars of education now than we did one hundred years ago automation so far has been a good thing we have a hundred thirty million jobs the united states employing two thirds of the civilian population eight hundred seventy it was twelve million jobs employing a third of the civilian population and jobs today pay ten times as much in constant dollars as they did one hundred years ago jobs are much more interesting and fulfilling than they were one hundred one hundred twenty years ago and we've kept pace with this rising skill ladder through education but as we go through the twenty first century conventional education by itself is not going to be enough to keep pace with the rising skill that we're going to have to enhance the basic capabilities of human intelligence and that's going to happen through neural implants which as i mentioned is already starting at least with people who have disabilities brain people who was capable as and hearing their vision below normal levels up to normal levels but that's how these technologies always start ultimately will be in the hands saying our normal faculties through this type of technology a nd but the pace of change is going to continue to accelerate and that's going to be a stressful phenomena everybody is in the run of the challenges for the twenty first century is to is how will the they can take and you know that the labor let's say labor intellectual or physical input to the production process is going to be in a certain sense one could see or one composite because in ski i think another some of the people in that but the import of labor to production which is the you know so that you have a job for which you are being paid for your input to production if you get to a situation which is highly automated and you have a highly automated capability the labor input and most of the income is triggered by labor criteria by having job there is are going to be a problem in terms of how we're going to distribute income where is there going to be a problem some people see brazil just went yesterday you know in that stock market some people see that in asia there's going to be a deflationary for that we're going to have tremendous productive capability these technologies have brought up but other people are going to have the ability to purchase that which the technologies capability is there a problem in terms of an economic system that will fit into the form realization of these technologies which in the systems way is part of the overall pattern we don't understand or can we go with just the economic systems that we have now as we understand it or do we need some sort of a new introduction of an economic system that can allow the whole system to realise itself or not crash even brought up a whole host of very interesting issues let me address a few of them first of all this new technology is fueling economic expansion  in the book i wrote and they had one hundred eighty eight digit intelligent machines i predicted sustained economic growth and prosperity particularly in the united states where we have free enterprise because of information technology greenspan recently credited efficiencies of information technology for the economic boom that he did that's only half the story the the other half is that most of the new wealth that we're creating is in the form of intellectual property software in all of its broad forms and we created a trillion us ten years in silicon valley alone and several trillion if you consider all of the new market caps of technology companies that's real money it's real wealth that's why our economy is growing and some others are not other countries don't have the right economic and cultural incentives to create new knowledge i mean you mentioned labor labor is not the primary create a rough today the primary creator of wealth it's intellectual property which includes music you know movies books t v software computers all of this broad forms of intellectual property which we're very good at creating in this country because we have the right sort of incentives both culturally and financially  that's that is really creating economic growth and that's going to economic growth is going to continue now that you mention deflation there's something wrong with the place i don't think kind of us understand deflation we've had fantastic deflation in the computer industry over the last in his computer the constantly getting less expensive software is constantly getting less expensive and it's not a bad thing the fact the computer industry has expanded best lee it has we got from ten billion dollars of software revenue ten years ago one hundred thirty billion everything is becoming part of the computer peter and stroking the computer industry is taking over everything everything is going to be part of computer history so everything is going to have deflation and fantastic economic growth deflation used to come from a is the tremendous improvements in price performance i was seeing in the computer history and its effect on everything else but we will see tremendous economic growth but economies are going to have to change them the economic model for example that japan has relied on which is manufacturing with very innovative high quality highly disciplined sophisticated manufacturing doesn't work anymore in large measure  the world i mean it's not going away overnight but there's a very rapid transition to a economy based on information technology and intellectual property and the ability to create new intellectual property and the suited in this country we have all the world's people here we have this for fun t m and tower the very entrepreneurially oriented so we're very good at creating intellectual property not just for this country but i mean our movies  software is all over the world you know but these other economies are going to have to develop the incentives the mindset to creates these kind of enterprises to be willing to take risks to be willing to fail the kind of very security oriented failure of right and incentives that you have in some other societies is not well suited to this new type of economic paradigm that we want to sing the praises it's played a role it's really played a role in staying out of the way of this phenomena i mean we have very little if any think you know that we have no regulation of the software industry and the computer industry ok you don't have to be certified to be a software engineer software affects everything i mean it's lives are planes it's in medical equipment but you don't have to be certified driving to the subway and driving the subway big and out there drivers being an architect you have to get certified but in it's really vital field of software you don't have to be sort of and that's a really good thing to market and look at the tremendous productivity that this whole software and computer information techno industry has provided it's lifting all the means of production that sort of thing you posit in a certain sense not directly but you posit the manifesto of because in ski is against the technological development as being perhaps the dialectic that's going to create perhaps some opposition to the t developments that are coming you think that's the way in which the political dialectic might proceed into the into the future of those who are opposed to the way things are developing might be entitled to that movement might be growing or an anti technological movement might be growing well i think there will be an anti technology technology little had movement that is growing because of some of the downsides to technology i mean you mentioned consensus he has you know bob a manifesto which i  out with the dangers being so prevalent that he would have a stop technology for such as i threw for starters i think that's just not feasible no fees and i tend to be an optimistic individual i think the benefits of this technology growth will will end up being more prevalent than the dangers but i talk about the dangerous and i don't think that cynics are about i think whether we apply the technology and how we apply our human values to it and that's one of the reasons i wrote the book to show where we're going so that we can shape these forces to construct a bad yeah you had you had in there  back the economics of this or that you did among other things are going to be some innovative things are going to be done if the technology if you have an automated system let's say that's going to be able to produce intellectual or or physical material things you had monkey things you mentioned was executive power and stock options and that in generally gets to the idea that we might begin to spread ownership i wonder if that makes sense to you that there could be a greater degree let's say systems wide now thinking systems wide of the society a greater degree of distribution of owner of income rather than labor criteria by ownership criteria technologically or in a productive system or are we going to be able to continue as we do now to distribute the vast majority of the income to the bulk of the society not to the leading edge twenty percent knowledge workers and so with but to the bulk of the society through labor criteria i don't know maybe it's not something you do you think  sort of a new way of distributing the only thing i think in order for there to be a market to buy that which the automated systems are able to produce labor as such it's going to have less and less value unless that labor is directed towards creating new knowledge of one form or another on the other hand you're going to have and you see that already a tremendous explosion of new enterprises ranging from a teenager in her bedroom in bombay who can get a three in it all a computer and get on the internet and create something of value and make a fortune and it's happening you know you had you had this million immigrants from russia go to israel and they couldn't get jobs as doctors and college professors so they started software companies and they had this infusion of american venture capital and the result from that is that israel now has its gross national product double that of saudi arabia and israel which had no access national markets because it was far away from from the states in europe and he said difficulty reaching those markets now has a front row seat like everybody else on the internet it doesn't require the capital anymore to start a software year a couple of college kids this is true story in california just as a hack decided to write this little program where which would help you find things on the internet it was not a business they just did this is hack they put it out for free on the internet people started to use economies like japan are shrinking they don't have the stock options they don't have certain of entrepreneurial institutions and orientations and that's the difference between our economic growth and some of the other countries who really need it the really it's for them to solve the economic problems is to change some of these paradigms jim to economically it economically but the the it's not just the owners of the stock options and benefits i mean it doesn't fuse the vote and so when just meeting in general the proposition that government do well to stay out of the economy in general when it comes to things like steel and other kinds of securities exchange commission and i think there's a valid role you know there is going to be things about a role for the government i mean for scares and change commission to industry i think totally changed by the time an issue like that is resolved as things are moving so quickly now and we're just coming right into that we're coming right into that into that fate well one thing is for sure i think is that what the chinese expression is that  save us from living in exciting time and for do we live in exciting times these are really very very exciting times particularly for people who are on the entropy know and the inventive leading edge of understanding that analogy and i don't know anyone with an american society has been more occupying that place and than yourself and i really thank you my pleasure thank you for all the work that you've done you know end the work you've done in the aid of the disadvantaged in our society helping to bring you know the technologies that help bridge the gap with those kind of people who think you don't really have been who you well richly do deserve the awards that have come down upon you and the book again let's let me show it's just we've only just been able to touch the service of it it's a it's a system of understanding and again let's let people see it the age of spiritual machines it's really out now it's by its viking but it's a viking book and it's out now in the subtitled when computers exceed human intelligence as perhaps the leading question this confronting us all now as we have this interface with these extensions of our conscience the computer is and the and the technology he is an extremely interesting book that we recommend very very highly and hope that you know you have enjoyed talking with its author here that some of the stuff is off the breakers  transcending scarcity you think there's any point in ever thinking about the idea of scarcity itself that we will get to the point where we will live in a world which will about be characterized by they aren't clad rules of