and the soviet union you can gain a fuller appreciation of what needs to be sustained in freer countries to keep political dynamism and to keep  another issue but that the the good guys in a certain sense one that the us the western model and that that threat from a marxian or proletarian organization world society or economic theory of everything is to the video conversations to video and video is building out of a tradition of film now i think it and we had marshall mcluhan studied media is a message sent to the new media the old media is the content of the new media and you know the medium is the medium by which we communicate is more important than the message that kind of thing but it's evolving and is having the facts on consciousness and this moving in almost exponential proportions as we get into a cyber world where the called it a film in the tradition of film and communication is melding with video and now digital video process the things are moving at lightning speed you know i've been reading this book by kevin kelly yeah and what technology wants which i asked mading when he speaks of the fact here's some statistics that are really good there are five hundred thousand movies that have been created in mankind's history five hundred thousand million t v a live in million songs have been recorded sixteen million books these are approximations you photography except brady maybe several more and it was in the last i blinked really of the human experience that we had any other way to convey information that's one generation to another other than print and now we're going into a position where those things are coming to a fruition we're we're able to have multimedia if we include camcorders and the ability to edit and that sort of thing is now becoming ubiquitous and is developing very quickly and is subsuming the institutions and thoughts of the past you just spell out all of those things including film i think that's right there are people who say that video is the new vernacular and if that's the case you know audiovisual means and we it's a different kind of literacy that's a different kind of flu absolutely it's a different literacy and it's one that is like i've used an example in other things pages to describe in liniers linear linear strung out literature beautiful literature that the sky was blue and the sea was blue green in the goal was flying in the breeze was coming in the waving of the it took ten pages to we're getting back closer to mimicking the way in which we actually experience the world in real terms other than strictly through the linear one thing at a time even and the idea of what forms rational  rationality that it's been the lot of the western civilization do you think is trying to inform the entire world i think we are bombarded with so many images all the time now we're making sense of the world largely through images now always that when there's a new medium it is thought by the keepers of the canon of the old established medium as being trivial and there is a tendency in this society american society in world society to have a very look very askance at the idea your term of your site is intelligent media not well marketed not quick not grabbing not always going to get cornflakes sales or any other kind of things that are used by marketer but intelligent program in the concept of intelligence is derided in a certain level to seems to be an anti intellectual bias is very wide in this society of the united states in the world  including i mean we can celebrate tiger woods for playing the game of golf or somebody's going to a match or running the marathon but it when it comes to intelligence it seems to be they want to degrade the idea or downplay the idea of intelligence  i think we underestimate the sage quality of everyone we know to our peril everybody's got an amazing story is true and everybody processes information in their own way wisely and so there are a group dynamics that take a hold in their political movements that may do that but you know if you're in if you're in if you're at a dinner table or if you're in a church or synagogue or if or if you're in a group conversation or a bowling alley or some of the conversations that you're engaged in are so deep and so true that i don't know i don't know to what degree were really anti anti intellect i think i just think we you know the market such as it is for television is such that it you know look what's happened to the learning channel or kerry would have it's jeremy with me while the learning channel was created at the dawn of the discovery channel and it's gone from being the learning channel with beautiful shows about science and scientists and in general it may be the case that when you commercialize media you have a difficult time sustaining the high quality of discourse in it and it may be the case that  you know what we need to argue for is kind of the preservation of the creation of alternative spaces for public media or public media and intelligent intelligent more time media exactly we saw the innova puts on things that are really we know the center they have fantastic present patients the most important kind of thing and there's not even one letter of the alphabet necessary is being done by multimedia and academia isn't going to have a brief against multimedia where the academic professions are all where did two books footnotes and this kind of thing and they count that is really real but multimedia is just trivial entertainment at the best was you were remember you know you showed me the other day you interviewed buckminster fuller on there you know gratian to me and you and he were talking now almost forty years ago in one nine hundred seventy four about the creation of sort of the future of universities they might become production studios and you know what through the support of a number of foundations and government agencies the open university in england and mit here yale some other universities u c berkeley are becoming universities of the air ok leisure that's very interesting so i think that's really interesting yeah exactly because you have a lot of people who are trying to download these these things on the internet on you know i tunes you name yeah i understand mit has their curriculum and where i mean you can get a curriculum there and other schools are following the ivy league schools are following where you get the curriculum you have to pay seventy thousand dollars a year to get a room and started the open university a very very interesting man and everything they try to set up an office here in new york and fifty seven through or helping them do some programs owings mills maryland they wanted to do some connecting of scholars that are of note that are really could be made available to universities across the country and in england they didn't have many universities they didn't have much there because they just had been very class conscious a few people at the time it would be running oxford and cambridge and so forth but they never they made it available but here you got to this ng and the people who resented the idea of having let's say the leader in a particular field the tiger woods of a particular field that everybody else is interpreted rather make that available to people as it could be done the lecture they were objecting to that because it would undercut their authority in their classroom doors and i do you know there's a problem there of turf you know there's a problem there of the academic community is not adequately able to understand how much can be conveyed by multimedia in an intelligent in the highest order intelligent pattern i think that's beginning to change and you do acknowledge that i do i really do i think technology has become this kind of great equalizer and is bringing lectures from distinguished academics to anybody anywhere increasingly if we nurture that system will be able to create close the gap of communications between the languages of the world they can do optical character generation of hers while with print and so on and they're doing it to where they can translate the languages auto nomic lead through computers individually and cyber from one language to the other languages of the world and you see that in your research merging and that's a capability that just come to certainly is a huge rosetta crowd sourcing of subtitles into all kinds of different languages for audiovisual files is the newest thing plus you know just around the corner you know you can search for anything we use typing in you know the word yes and soon there's going to be video search where you can just put an image and you'll be able to search the web based to find images that look like that and you'll be able to search in moving image from right  now that you know that goes back to your paleolithic man experience yes indeed it would looking around for things that look like watch what's on your right would also need a new indexing system of we're going to do it by image we're not going to be doing it alphabetically like we do the dictionary and we need a new dictionary definition dewey decimal and library of congress in order to break knowledge down by that system but whether we can put the image and the use of images in very exact cause and dollar question the idea that right there is the biggest question i mean part of what intelligent television is about yet it's not just the content on the television being sort of documentaries about interesting historical political when you've been doing you've been working these eleven years and let's you and i spoke in the studio on that very thing dealing with the institutions that are relevant to developing all of that and that's what i take my hat off to you and all your colleagues and what you've been doing we want to talk about that you have this incredibly rich site if i may say so called intelligent television now i'm wondering are we're going to try if we can to see maybe you could bring that up and we could show that on the screen to the people because it  particular if you could navigate a little bit if you want and we'll see if we can try to bring up the intelligent televisions site if you should so let's see if we can do that in the control room if they have trouble give him a couple of seconds try and get it up and then we can navigate that looking at our site here can we bring it up maybe we're not going to be able to i don't know if we can bring it up we'll just come back into conversation but if you can bring it up be translated into a medium that we can scale intensive distribution access and of course in the digital age we finally have sat medium in that distribution mechanism if you take a an example why women so french and it's something that very is just the last couple twenty years or so this is a huge one i mean i imagine to search this corpus of human creation of all of these movies of all these television episodes of all our songs and all our books and especially the educational ones with all the significant ones all the artifacts that are in our museums this potential explosive if we say the movies if you think of movies there are movies that if you say educational i've heard term term used edutainment yes you know i've not heard that term except as recently as something that has educational content if ever you use that term in media circles they would actually walk out of the room i would say there is no market there's nothing can be done that has anything to do in virtual media in commercial media circles which tend to have very strong say in the overall operation of our media our media reality but if you take as a premise that there are lots of people millions of people who like to self educate that increasing is increasing i think it's increasing the question is highest order i think that that to me is the most important question how you connect money education and culture in ways using this new technology i would reference a thing and we just reference it we were talking before that a friend of mine who is really into mental bro the most intellectually high order with men brought with the people understand they did this thing and they presented an hour of that that it could hardly be i had a friend who was particularly interested in that and i absolutely entranced that that was presented because it was so well done and there wasn't a single letter of the alphabet i believe in that whole thing it was all done multimedia and if you have translation capabilities in the languages of the world a person could could get the most the most  educational content of the world knowledge to them and it was a language in the language that they can understand they would be able to access that even if they were illiterate that's right even if they were illiterate they would only have to be able to understand and be able to talk in order to be accessing some of the best well put together multimedia language without the intervening written language we understand is that possibly emerging completely and we couldn't thirteen just around the corner way it's going to be video ok already a lot of it is but the preponderance overwhelmingly in two thousand and thirteen fourteen will be video and where is that going to come from it's all on the web all on the web are there are sources that we have if you think in terms of television i want to one thousand nine hundred channels the other day and the local cable television system there was nothing well you had to do with your show well no know there was not no channel that it was intelligent television like you're talking about where they're putting things like a reruns of nova or the things where they're really been serious consideration of these is just is treated as though it has no meaning or no place because it doesn't fit the market or why is that are they protecting copyright copyright laws preventing good television to be made are is it marketing decision because it's such a small audience for anything intelligent are they assuming the intelligent can only people can only be dumbed down by media why is it that intelligent reason taishan of the store of human knowledge is not made available and artfully done to the people of the world i think there needs to american public television i think there needs to be a new and vigorous exploration of how advertising can support intelligent programming there is a significant demand for this kind of programming ok there is on the other and this kind of spiral of kind of commercial preconceptions and network attitude that kind of reduce everything to the lowest common denominator and you know there are some mr jewel programs out there like sixty minutes some of the segments in particular and sixteen public broadcasting is different but i think there needs to be a general rethinking of  is really very worthy of consideration it's got it's got pictures it's got images and it's got things which can be viewed by people again i'm really intrigued by the translating of the words into the languages of the world to people who would view it would be able to beginning understand what i'm saying is that thing about being able to translate the languages of the world i don't know how toilets we are to that to where that can autonomically be done but what an amazing thing that would be possible for the for the for the transmission of knowledge in a multimedia content is something that could become to inform mr fuller back in seventy four said if i'm not mistaken if i remember he said the only thing about universities that will exist he was thinking about the turn of the century were those as production centers for multimedia presentations and of the content of the professors who will become content providers of them and they'll be multimedia presentations to educate the world we haven't come to that yeah well he might have been you know one hundred forty years early he's got out of that beginning again ok like a lot of universities had television studios back in the one nine hundred seventy s right right as you were doing that interview and increasingly classrooms are being video recorded and what that does is enable all of us to connect to the content of those where it's it's not a lecture it's not a a lecture this being projected that can be done it's very easy cheap you can record you know talk and that sort of thing but real production particular got these kids coming along they can do final cut pro and all kinds again you know you speak a good neighbor gutenberg was you know he's been the dominant force on these years but now we might be in a place where you know as the end of six years a wonder is there anything to be said for the fact that academia has become so specialized and that particular litter regression the first use of the computer you could get very highly specialized and they're confusing specialization i mean they're confusing real scholarship with specialization to the point where you don't have hardly anything offering systems understanding of things where there's a where you're connecting things between parts of a system sub systems into a systems understanding where you can get an overview of what's going on and it seems to be us is looking for that they're looking for patterns that can make sense out of a whole lot of things that are happening history geography economics politics all kinds of things they're looking for that and they divided the world up into highly specialized things where somebody becomes the expert on one particular thing and then they bore the bejesus out of people in the classroom because they know all the details of that specialisation and it divides in congress the intellectual enterprise if you understand i do i think that's that's really beautifully put i think also machines are looking to make patterns ok yes and we have all of this video you need to get out there  increasingly you'll be able to have connections being formed by a search algorithms and other things that bring together parts you know an explanation of physics here  there into graded into other things because the technology enables that and the rights enable that ok that's something you've been looking at we have a system of copyright licensing and all of these kind of things that make up the media market you've been looking into these things and is there like if you have for instance the protests take an example and to help them set me straight and we want to try and get to show your site again like we're trying to do before but if you have a thing like just say b i just happened to mention the thing they did on mental brought you know but the other day so somebody wants to take that nova thing they're doing a thing on mental broader and fractal geometry or fractals and that sort of thing and they want to just take that thing that film and put it on their  page or something like that there would be something that would prevent them from doing it because there is a copyright or a license agreement that was built into the means by which that production was received and that has to be about safety and also the licensing that's where do those things stand in terms of helping in the creation of good programming and how do they if they do get in the possibility of disseminating information by a democratically organized free flow of information and how do those old work i think this just  the ability to clear all the rights in such a way that you can take that finished product and you can take all of the component parts of the music the images interviews the archival footage in one eye and make that available to the public to do what they want to do with it as they pretty much product it here's a finished product that is yours but also have the component parts so that the public can system then that would be a violation and there could be legal action taken to go along with the but what i'm saying is new productions need to take this into account and you have to try to clear all those rights in new productions and if the gr foundations like ford and mcarthur and rockefeller and hewlett and mellon and the new ones to our underwriting public media are going forward needs to be truly public it needs to be cleared for all that media needs to be cleared for public use and review well probably use and review so if there's a new creation let's say nova ok no it was a thing of p b s i guess in everything they do it and so that that use of that there would be copyright there would probably be a copyright statement at the end of it what does that mean in terms of the public being able to share pieces of it or piece a music promoter an image or anything what does it mean how limiting is it on the free open source kind of free use a kind of thing of the citizen there was they could have access to let's just say images from that in order to die to put together thing they're putting together without being threatened by the law for violating some important thing that's important to our economy with the internet is a relatively new thing and yeah i blink of an eye blink of an eye for the sort of television production and it's been the case that traditionally  productions have not focused on being streamed online to say nothing of being streamed online and download music say nothing of being streamed online and downloaded and enabling to the advantage of media makers everywhere to enable folks to take that material and do stuff with it if you can to make it is open and available to the individual who wants to take a piece in of they make it part of their thing and there's a term open source and there's a view of the internet into that so that they don't so would that violate the principle premises and the effects of our copyright laws our licensing agreements that have to be worked out with the major companies or how is the public in general who wants to let's say we've got a world of people who are going to put together a really interesting intellectually pieces of material they want to piece of music here a flow of the sea or something like that they got a creative thing they want and can be just putting things together the way they want to without being worried about being violating the copyright or somebody has got one piece of that thing to they would like to put it into their creation that they take off the net or something so i think what needs to happen is  productions need to be sort of inspired by this kind of vision of a world where we're all communicating using the resources that you're making and that i'm making so if you interview me i will sign a release or you will get me to sign i will address you that is a matter of fact you were all right yes you know you can do whatever you want with this if you take a picture outside a lot of people are posting those pictures on mean my kids are looking at this they're looking at this screen and my question is what will they be looking at in that screen right or how do we make material interviews  content so there's an evolving events in terms of media extension a constant through time and things change through time and you get to a point where like for instance you have the capability twenty years ago we would not have had to say thirty five years ago we would not have had the ability to understand the way the brain works we didn't know about neurotransmitters we didn't know any of these things so things are developed as a something is developed or let's say now you've got a child who's got a certain ailment and they've discovered through research and they had to have like in the biochemical they discovered a pill that can serve that but they have to get their amortise ation out of what they had and so the investment by which the research is advanced and is able to be done has to be amortized so they could sit and watch the child die because the child doesn't have the five thousand dollars to pay for the pill that had to be in order to meet the advertising of the old outdated situation to which we are evolving do understand that we don't  have a proper economic system that makes possible so we have a capability at a level just one little metta step to reality we have a capability that our systems inherited out of a situation that has been transform either offers a new possibility for or requires and that makes for an upset and maybe that's why they assume that there's no point listening to anybody who's going to try and reify those institutions because they're just going to situation where the power in the everything is in the hands of a few people and the system is not what the future requires is an anxious it was a lose in the general society because we don't have an operating manual for the overall system of how we're going to deal you know what i think what we need is a kind of new vision of public media together by great academics to be sure but also technologists technolog es who can really appreciate what it is it's an operating manual if we're all sort of being connected the web in this giant supercomputer you know kevin kelly again says what technology wants is increasing sentience sentience understand wisdom understanding yeah exactly so you know which i'm partial to yes intelligent television i might feel what evolution is about that's exactly well it's just ok go ahead yes sorry but if that's the case then this kind of business about you know are we really anti intellect we might be anti intellectual but we may actually be pro intelligent or something like that yeah maybe there's there's a balance the technologists could help us sort out so that we can those of us who want to engage in this activity or watch this on that screen can do it but those of us who want to do something else can do it also and find find that quality material such as exists at the british film institute or the b b c or the american museum of natural history or and just have it out there digitized on line for us anytime we want and you're working with the people that are trying to do that you've ticked off a couple of institutions i don't know could you try and see if you could bring up your site again or should we try that it's up to you give it a book can you bring it up and bring it because your site is so rich and you have a great number really important people you've been in touch with a lot of these institute there i think maybe if you've got it now you know that's not that's not is ok well maybe we just can't ok so maybe maybe we better try and come back to us josh if you can ok and maybe we're going to be doing a second hour with you because i  conversation since you've been following the realities of that the institute you've been talking to the to the people within the overall industry the foundations that you've been talking to the copyright people the licensing you're beginning to understand and you put together an incredible team of people maybe you could talk a little bit about the structure of intelligent television as an entity and what are these your mission or what your statement is and then some of the progress you're making toward realizing your goals  largely for the web which is where most people are going to be watched seems that way doesn't it sort of as a business ok try and see how public entities to program out on you tube almost three thousand we've done so and i saw like the buckminster fuller program just to pick that example again has got almost sixty thousand views already it was once got two million six hundred whatever naked bears they wanted but yeah yeah but yes that's true did you tube is a great way because you can do that with the no cost and you can archive but that demonstrates does it not that there's a relapse type for that kind of material well apparently when you get on a world scale yeah you even in the absence of marketing and i mean i don't know that you know you take ads out on buses or cell phones i wouldn't know how you know i wouldn't know how i know you don't have found this already even in the the same cut the same companies why can't they be sponsoring the kind of you know if you have a writer in the new yorker who appears on your show or a writer for the atlantic or a photographer whose photos appear in one why can't those same sponsors travel into the audiovisual universe as they as they take similarly in these magazines like i b m intel from your thing we're going to try and get this is actually from your site well we did that for the british government ok this is a thing that these people are put together on building a new market for culture virtue and necessity in a screen based others and these are institutions that exist in the information environment they do and you understand it pretty well the way it's structured the industry and of these that are significant terms of media and particularly multimedia production distribution systems you understand i do i mean i think we need to build new support structures to get the great quality sources of material together with advertisers and underwriters and that's something you're working a people and you're also investigating those realities in a in a realistic way and dealing with it and how are things going how many do you have involved at intelligent television you have a number of people involved there have from the industry or from the end of the make up the overall medium of everything for papers that are trying to get an understanding of things that are relevant is this study that you can apply your research capability to to understand that world better not enough but they're growing yes they kind of great thing if we do have the possibility to look on the web i could show you one thing that's coming up th a research center figuring out how to make sense in the network world of all these audio visual assets one that all of them share what a thing this call it is it is fantastic and they've they've asked me to give kind of the yes our smithsonian institution and our national archives are all moving to a degree in this in this direction they're not yet cross pollinating in all the ways that they could and they've only begun to digitize a small percentage of the because just the tasks that all of them do on the day to day basis please nanda to use it but a friend at the smithsonian for example is launching this smithsonian back again tomorrow but that's it for the this particular program thank you and do look for tomorrow a follow up to this particular program that will be taking