actually came to me over a year ago before everybody discover what this looming state was and i went to my publisher it was seven stories press and i said i think we ought to write something about this phenomenon and they said what are you talking about of course you so in the end they said yes because they like me i guess and they wanted to do any  is only eight months since we have discovered that the islamic state existed and all of a sudden we're now considering you know bringing him back our children have burnt parents in that fight  more than ten years since two thousand and three since the few asco of two thousand and three the invasion of iraq we now face an enemy which is actually much much bigger much more sophisticated in fact and to a certain extent i think sometimes you understand it better than we do and to explain this concept i want to talk very briefly about what has happened with the japanese  of this political animal and indeed i even think that the islamic state is used as sort of terrorist diplomacy to create a particularly negative situation inside bought japan million been put forward by this law now we don't know what was happening in jordan but it is very likely that the negotiation were taking place because otherwise why would japan have gone to jordan to ask for help to talk to this state so it channel of communication in jordan so obviously this negotiation came to a halt and this happened in generally of this year when the prime minister went to the middle east and plant two under a million dollars in you money time this is very suitable article number nine that prohibits japan for using any military intervention or financial support for any military intervention apart from  japan is under attack so that explains why japan did not participate in the war on terror in the coalition put together but bush and this explain also why japan it's always been on the last year the prime minister propose a change in the constitution he wanted to change article nine to give the possibility to japan to participate in militar activity outside the constrain of the constitution in other words you know to be part of the coalition against isis that  accept the fact that japan has to abandon this pacifist approach and has to be part of the grand coalition in particular against an enemy like few people knew i didn't know either for example there was this debate but this was a great opportunity a great opportunity for the slumming state to expose the contradiction between the government policy on the one hand wanted to join of course you know all these you know coalition wanted to please also pressed into obama and the united states and the japanese watch it if you change your policy if you get involved in matters that have nothing to do we do you will pay and you will pay with the debt of your own people and this our you have to read the narrative of these you are being produced now this is a state japan they wanted to negotiate this is not the united states or the united kingdom the only two to the american aid worker same age she's gone the two italians are back home this is what's happened on a daily basis but in this particular sink or circumstances the japanese also just  now for what concerns jordan actually this is to a certain extent even more complex politically speaking now we know they're the negotiations were and this is because in reality this state did not want to negotiate the release of any of those or cities the requests were impossible to meet two hundred million in seventy two hours  exchange for and japanese hostage this has never happened before no government will do something like that so the conditions were purposely impossible to meet because islamic state wanted to kill those people it wanted to prove that there is no way you can get with us now why jordan jordan actually it's quite important the islamic towards the construction of the nation state in europe the arabs looked to european nation state in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries with the ration say look they have done such an amazing thing politically and we we are unable to produce a new formula something similar to what they're you know in real state to state  country the first opened to the west in accepting israel fall of course you know by egypt so the tension between radical sadness and jordan is there a very strong and this explains the government so what the islamic state has done by burning alive the pilot i don't know if you have seen the longest part is actually a political statement against jordan showing the jordanian government being a sort of poodle of you know the united states being the instrument of the west in the middle a burning is quite a shocking and really it's almost insulting to the islamic religion so this was clearly a provocation why do i say that well i think you know it's a probation because it wants what the islamic state wants it wants to drew jordan into the fight and in fact the reaction of jordan has been intensified the move war similar to the one that we're seeing in syria there is a very strong support for radical salafism in jordan and the situation today is very different from the situation two thousand and five when there was the bombing because jordan now has a lot of refugees coming from syria and from iraq so there is a very large population of refugees who are living  we've seen in syria so i told you this because i wanted to make clear that we're dealing with a political animal so whatever we're doing is to be done bearing this in mind forget the barbara images for get what you read in the newspaper about these people being psycho but these people are not psycho but these people are and they are very skillful in the use terror as a tool so we need to find a new approach they definitely different from the pro choice until today so let's knock down the border between iraq and see the border of course was put in place by the french and the british in nineteen nineteen sixteen and a new state was born out of forces but also against the shia the shia this is a sunni movement the shia are can see their enemies because the shias are hostages they are not part of the same religion they're actually consider two thousand and seven there was this surge in the sunni awakening the sunni population was convinced by the united states to turn their back to the  baghdad is now the new calif became a leader of this group that was more or less on the brink of extinction in two thousand and ten and this was the group the original until two thousand and five when he was arrested and he ended up in a camp which was an american managed company prison camp which was cool d but next door course in syria there was a civil war which just started really violent repression of the arab spring by the damascus government  by the regime of assad plunge the country into a civil war this civil war immediately turned into a war by proxy because you know various groups there you states started to found  then of course you know we had russia who was biking financially in military the regime of assad then we had saudi arabia kuwait qatar who actually wanted to overthrow a syria and this is why some people use eisel with the el for the levante and some other people use isis for you you know now all of this of course  tells you how these group slowly but surely was evolving was getting bigger was also trying to establish itself as a state which up and in june of two is a territory which is trying to build a nation so it is a state why do you think your president doesn't use the word islamic state none of the politicians are using that word that they have been able to create a nation so they're actually you know of succeeding in nation building where we in the last fourteen years of actually failed now that is important because this is all is important because in the collective imagination of the west and the east all of this factors are playing you know an important role so you can see that these organizations these state this individual also baghdadi are political animals because the managed to grab a great opportunity in syria even cross over to syria but this story conquest which is very traditional worldcom was similar to the one of the middle ages you know move into a territory they attack a town that concordant a town and then something happens out of there around this town's did do not run this territory that they conquered the same way the taliban did oppressing the people they're not dictatorial towards the people on the contrary they actually are very pragmatic now of course of the christian for any other religion if you don't pay to tax the kill you right so this is a strategy from the human point of view is absolutely appalling but if not necessarily to be content but they want people to be satisfied we want their so they what they do is immediately fix all the basic infrastructure to give you a three city water now we're talking about war torn areas we're not talking in places like you know where we live we're talking about places where plants into anarchy villages ruled by warlords  population they do apply the sheer within their everyday life and then they fix the infrastructure they give a certain kind of normality to the everyday life they even vaccinate children paul you something that you know the taliban you know so i know that this is shocking i think is absolutely shocking for you because you know all we see of this is another thing and this is the one that we have to look because this is what makes these state so strong where it is this is what makes relation actually you know accepting the fact that they are there and this is also what is going to make very difficult for us to bring about another sunni awakening similar to the one or two thousand and seven these tribes will not believe us anymore because you know we promised them that they would be a democratic regime in baghdad and there wasn't and we knew that this year government was doing incredibly bad things towards the sunni massive discrimination and we didn't do anything i mean you know we just laughed and said ok now is it is your problem unfortunately it seems that this problem is coming back to our home so i told you all of this because there is something else that we must understand is why so many young people are joining this state i mean why so many european young muslim or even american young muslim all of a sudden you know  say in the book this certain kind of seduction and this it actually comes from the fact that for the first time in centuries the sunni muslim is taking shape in a state that dream of two great day is all of a sudden taking shape there if you listen to the speech of baghdad the day which you declare the birth of the caliphate is a very positive speech he says this is your state c west and people you come from a different culture you feel a sort of a misfit you don't know what to do you don't know to whom do you belong there all of a sudden this message comes to you so the message that goes to this young people close to radicalization not radicalized yet is not the message we perceive is not the message of the people being killed is actually the message of building a stay article call to state their will offer deliverance to every single muslim after centuries and centuries of them dream and i think this is their very strong and i also think that if we want to fight them we have to fight on this terrain also bombing is not going to be the best solution why are these people going there we must fight that kind of action so we have a double message terror for us a message of hope for you know those that join the islamic state and the role of the media well we know that the media is being completely manipulated by them in that i think they show great modernity i mean they're modern in the way they used technology but they're also their mother in their way to spin the  media in reality what we have seen from the beginning even now is that the media is constantly catching up with you know what's happened on social media what's happened on face twitter they are all with a step ahead and by catching up the media is trying to make things more exceptional so the  state do you see what i mean i mean do you know we should we really need to rationalize in order to understand exactly what is happening know your enemy number one and number two of co e find different ways more clever ways to fight then you know the simple bombing so to conclude i invasion of iraq was wrong in fact you can see there are lots of books out there and i think i will spend the next thirteen years to convince people that this is also wrong i mean does it doesn't work i mean years and work in two thousand and three why should it work today what has everything was ok and then all of the said and they came back much much stronger and the same think is going to happen if we carry on with the military intervention so what can be the solution well i think you know the solution has to be for sure integration in the west we need to go back to that concept of a multi ethnic society as a very strong society key to prevent this young people from going to join and look at the foreign finders are very important not only because there are many but also because the foreign fi basically state but at the same time this is a link with the west which is bad for us and he's good for that the other way the other strategy it is to use diplomacy i mean not the diplomacy that we know the cold war kind of diplomacy that we still have today but a sort of do we know what they really want big they want to get what this is their goal we had no idea so in one thousand centuries diplomacy would actually be trying to get in touch with the tribal leaders who are very close to this law makes things in order to understand what is their objective or is it possible to establish a dialogue with these people at least to understand and then you know neighboring countries for example saudi arabia but at the end of the day the redrawing of the map of the middle east will take place and i think he asked to be done by them this is th our fight we drew those borders after world war one and world war two and we are today paying the consequences of those borders so we can influence  diplomacy the redrawing of them but the end of the day they have to do it themselves and their may require also war is possible i don't think in the short run there's going to be any peace not at all but if we carry on being involved then the problem will compound it will get bigger and bigger and remember these lambing state is the product of this policy if we had not gone into iraq in two thousand and three i would not be here telling you this story want them to do in order to promote our vision of islam but no i don't think there was direct involvement with nine eleven you know i want to follow up on your the very last topic that you discussed in your in your talk about the two thousand and three invasion leading very directly to this so i just want to follow up are you suggesting or do you believe that once we invaded in two thousand three and elevated this to the expense of the sunni that it became inevitable essentially that something like this would happen or do you think there were steps subsequent to that maybe more effort with the awakening councils maybe longer presence maybe earlier intervention in syria or some combination of things that the united states could have done that could have precluded this from happening and i don't think we should be in there to told that because it was a r happy and way worse you know to promote their vision of islam i mean i used to go to iraq for work a lot before the sun sure impose and i can related to our policy we want to regime change we want a nation building and we failed tremendously and yes then you know at the end of two thousand and seven which was a good idea the sunni awakening was definitely a good idea but then we didn't respect that bargain in concert that we had done and it's not because we left or we could have done it from washington is because we interested and this is something we do all over and over and over again we go we make a mess and then we come on and i mean this is this is what i said about diplomacy this is the cold war diplomacy because during the cold war you know you had to a sphere of influence you know one inside and the other one side and you we could do something like that because there was really an alternative but now the awards is so complex so complicated the reason why the u s could not intervene in syria is because the chinese in the security council said you're not doing what you have done in in libya again before this is really been a very interesting analysis but yet the parallels are very iran ludicrous if one uses some critical thinking like for instance a summary that was presented to us if one third stood tooted israel for every reference to the islamic state one could see so many similarities and i'm asking for your response on this and just a short in the us and then you concluded that the suggestions of how we the u s and other western powers if we focused on integration multi ethnic focus and diplomacy and dialogue how we could move forward and progress with israel in the middle of the middle east and the islamic state which has become more and more demonized misunderstood the muslims so thank you coalition to protect israel we actually have done it to protect saudi arabia so you know they all emphasis is completely shifted i think now the islamic seriously afraid of these frankenstein which has created now if you remember correctly there was a press conference and to end of august i think you must have been like the he went around the world to form the ground correlation think about the u s and no intention to be drawn into this but yet because syria saudi arabia is our ally and all of a sudden that week you know between you know these changes we had you know the troops from saudi arabia you know being deployed in the north of the country for fear that this state was coming at the border with iraq so i don't think that for the moment this is for israel i think it is for our gulf allies and in particular for saudi arabia for what diplomacy dialogue  yes i think war should always be the last option the one that you cannot turn boy should never be the first one beings my question is how can we break their backbone because finance is the backbone of every institution and organization so who is supporting these terrorists financially who's buying the oil and how they're getting how can  they're running a state so imagine this is a territory that is bigger than texas and inside this territory is the state so you know these taxes i mean you you need to go to i mean you know there are of course islamic courts with judges you need to go to court because you have a dispute with your neighbor you pay you know or to have access to that system of justice and the money  resources for example smuggling of all oil but the islamic states gets a percentage of that business so you know we could have we could have stopped on the money going from  before nine eleven if we had known right but now we can't stop what happens inside s day i mean i'll give you another example they can queer the north of iraq at the beginning be without forty percent of the ear of the production of wheat so they end to make a deal and they actually both the wheat from the islamic state because otherwise they were going to be short of forty mean because it is a stay it's very very difficult to cut his finances because this financing because it's self financing it's that's why we need a different