or two and three great you know depending on what we make it through the never enough time that we're not talking about the time worse now and there are so many elements to it so one of you guys tell me how you got started with this book what was the catalyst well suzanne and i were introduced through a mutual friend we were both in february and i was a few months ahead of her in the process and both of us were really kind of struggling along with relationships with friends and family who really didn't know what to do with us you know they hadn't been divorced they really didn't have great advice at their fingertips for us and we also couldn't really find a lot of resources when we initially had gone on to find books to read on the topic there were a lot of books that were great clinical tomes with a lot of detail advice but maybe not so warm and entertaining it's hard to throw yourself into that when you're at the age of upset and then there are a lot of more fantastical journeys about one woman's adventure where she usually and that happy with another man and yes and i we really i wasn't in looks very very i don't think suzanne was it so even that initially beating it with that was one of the things we kind of bonded over the lack of resources then we really started to meet weekly and go for walks and talks and we helped each other so much we decided to expand that and had a group and suzanne is this the maplewood club you know the maple diverse club you know for me joe was a few months ahead and the divorce process and that was so meaningful to me because i still remember the wow she's figured out how to make this work like it's possible and i think that was the biggest thing was the inspiration of someone a little bit ahead is that when you're just in the throes of it it seems like this is never going to work out how am i ever going to get to the next place and so little by little we kept inspiring each other and i think part of it too was we both wanted to make the best of it one of the worst times of our lives but we were determined to grow and learn and make something good come out of it and so after we started thinking about it we are giving each other such great hope and sistership and friendship and support what if we thought it was anyone else in town who needed help we certainly didn't see them around and like everybody was pushing a baby the look on your face of surprise should be when you walk into a surprise party not when you're ten to divorce papers that's the worst surprise you gonna get in your life right it's that gun gut wrenching moment where you feel like your entire world they you knew as being defining you was gone and it's an  experience for women especially i represent a lot of women in my practice one day i'm sitting at my desk not too long ago and sort of comes running into my office with this great article in the star ledger these two incredible beautiful women who wrote this book and i read the article and i said to myself i saw three clients today at the very early stages of their divorce process and they were looking at me like i know you're going to be my lawyer i know when we get a forensic accountant i know i'm going to get a realtor but what about the rest of my days and my questions and my supportive and what do i do when i read this article i said this is it this is the resource that women need to sit back and i don't care if you're crying or having a glass of wine or what you're doing read this because that world of the unknown all of a sudden start coming starts coming into these chapters where you say to yourself i think i'll be able to manage so i reached out to these two beautiful ladies we met and we quickly a i read that a divorce attorneys best resource is this book and he only art and there's such ambiguity and we've all kind of shared some personal stories around this and i think you feel very isolated you know unless you just happen to have a best friend or somebody really close do they want to confide you don't have that and you feel isolated you don't have partnership with other people who you know can really walk you through this you know so i think one of the things out of the community around this as well as the book i feel like you're an inspiration for others to see even you know begin to form some of these communities in their local areas they're just going to say to your point that a lot of women come in and they want to start sharing their story they want to just just really purge all the hurt in the questions but they don't know where they can talk to because the friends of the husband they're going to go back and i trust my mother in law what do i share with so they're yearning for a community or resource that will help answer those questions and i think that that's what the group initially right was was for this for this purging in the sharing there i think it's interesting because when you're going through a divorce suddenly you're building this whole team you're finding a lawyer you're finding financial help you're finding all these people who are going to help you through the process there's also the emotional side and we you know think that it's wonderful for people to go see you there or any kind of professional help of motion only but also being with women in the trenches we're going through it with you with your hand to really understand and show up and you know bring dinner or you know have a picnic or take your kids to ballet all that kind of family like support is what we really appreciated from our group and one another i think there's almost nothing that's so relatable if somebody who is that they've been there right underway i know you need to do like i can listen to what you have and i'm going to tell you everything i learned but almost like the cliff notes and i'm going to help you yeah but so so appealing i think when you're feeling so overwhelmed by all the different factors there's the financial thereof you were talking about how people respond right when they find out you're getting divorced and how for some people it's a little close to home they're there maybe not totally comfortable in their current situation and so then that becomes something start pushing back and so yeah i mean i'm i'm fascinated with this one of our friends said that she could always tell the state of her friends or family of marriage by how they responded to her you you know it was kind of like how d do you have new family traditions how do you go to the ballet recital on your own here and how do you find that out how do you talk to your neighbor how do you tell your family and we give you different scenarios the group has gone through we have the book takes place with stories with suzanne and myself but also with ten composite women that are made up of two or more real life women the characters we show you like their trajectories and all the different things that experience you know as you know i do a lot of work with women empowerment and  they're it's such a it's a big word but it means so much more than just how many letters it has and it right because women that are in marriages where they take a back seat meaning that they allow the husband to handle the finances and maybe they stop working or maybe they never worked these women already feel like they're less than when the process starts so for them to now catch up in the knowledge of the financial picture and to get up to speed with what are my rights where am i going to live what's the law to then try to figure out do i have any girlfriends to talk to about this or where i even want to sit have a scenario by joining to call my lawyer was going to bill me for the time or is my counter a person know the right person might be to your point a woman that has gone through it is going through it or considering going through it and all of a sudden that community of support helps and power so you become a better client you become a better mother you become a better friend all around because you don't feel like you're just going down that rabbit hole no i mean because you're in the process of rebirth you're in the process of redefining yourself  so that's a scary proposition without the divorce bible yeah well i think that for us it was a chance to say something didn't work in our marriages and everybody can take a look at themselves and you know we have chapters are because divide into three parts because that sort of traces the whole process the very beginning is called deal and that's when you're just in the throes of it having the conversation with your soon to be ex you're telling the kids you're figuring out where you're going to live you're hiring a lawyer all of the really logistical things that you have to go through the middle part of the book which is the biggest part is heal and that's the motional journey what can you learn how can you grow through it and then the last section is reveal which is really when you're ready to come back out into the world and socialize possibly date again and for us the journey really represented a growth opportunity this is going to be hard we're going to feel like we're kind of almost you know shedding skin but we wanted it to be positive and i feel like you know we've both i think of merged with so many big wonderful changes in our lives that we feel you know  actually was a positive experience even though it's not one that we ever would have wanted yeah i mean i think that coming back to the title to the optimist guide it's no one ever said it's going to be easy but if you look for it all of that opportunity to really work on yourself because you have to keep the focus on yourself you can never control another person whether you're in a good relationship were bad relationship with them and divorce is hard and it brings out the worst usually in both sides for a while you know until you can kind of get to a more neutral place and keeping the focus on yourself and really like looking at your history and your patterns and that how did i end up here with what did i do that contributed to this and how can i not make that same mistake in the future i think is a really healthy way to look at it oh yeah and one of our biggest i feel like you porton messages that we can share is there is a tendency at the beginning to really trash talk your x your so heard you're so angry or so disappointed and we found that kind of perpetuating that bashing the x doesn't get anyone anywhere so we really encourage in our meetings to focus on well what was your part what can you control and where are you now you know to let go of all of that right especially in front of the kids right you know badmouthing your ex is actually hurting the child because the child is part you and part there you know that so often clients will say and they get the speed that whether from their therapist or from good friends or a support group like this or the book and then when it's time to file a motion with the court because your ex's and doing some things are not paying the right support or he's not picking up the kids or he's withholding information whatever it is and you have to go through a high judge here we aren't this is the background of our life and this is why we're here and these are things that are going bad and it's so telling for these women that are on this healthy path of healing for them to come back to the place of describing where the marriage went wrong and i had an interesting dialogue with a client straight about this and she said to me it was therapeutic to go there but if it wasn't for my support system i would have had a really hard time coming back top to be positive and it's always that young and yang when you're divorcing right because you're dealing with the lawyers you're battling your you're it's warfare as like to call it at times but then you're trying to heal and move on so without the right foundation how do you balance between the joy it right and and and be mindful right i mean be mindful be the consider it in the face of going through this reflection which may bring out so much anger and pain but then you know if it has a person and you're able to reflect back on that experience and you can handle it with grace what a gift right your point where you know want to bad mouth the soon to be x y when people are battling over custody you're looking to share joint custody it's pursuant to new jersey statute if the court judge is going to decide what's going to happen and one of the factors is the ability to get along with your soon to be ex and you know how are you nurturing the relationship with that person because you are going to stay parents you know you may not be married so people may think that trying to bad mouth him or that you really need to not do that right like  your reporting in social media numb videotaping every you know a lot of things comes into court as evidence right and all of a sudden you're you can get yourself into a real bind by just venting about what kind of a s o b right or soon to be ex is right one of the tips we have in the book is to really kind of interact be it on the phone or our preferences e mail so that you have things easily referenced like the title is this this week's holiday schedule or you know like so when i somebody says oh no you didn't you c did yeah forward but to keep everything as if you're writing to a coworker if you wouldn't say it's a coworker don't say it to your ex so to your point if it ever comes to pass as exhibit aaa out that the judge will see it like this is a reason to person who seems totally in control of themselves but no anger issues you know you could just hear lay the groundwork and also helping to not add fuel to the fire you know we felt because you're right you're going through a kind of gut wrenching experience and you're trying to also grow and be positive and be a good role model for your kids it's not as though your life stops and you can deal with all of the legal issues and financial so you're a choice all the time and what do you can choose to focus on are you going to choose to focus on what is possible in the future or what didn't happen in the past you know are you going to focus on what went well today or what when poorly and just understanding that we're a choice and that we can always look for and that's what we call it the optimist guy because there's always something positive as day the you can bring it back to you and that actually gives you energy to get through it as opposed to we found that when you know every meeting starts veering what was for you ever since done to you it's really how we frame it so i think that's critical especially to this what i really love about this book is that it's not a pity party you know and a lot of women will come into my office and say death threat of a relationship but it gives you the positive how to tools so that you feel that even if you don't have control over how your divorce is going lets it's a really bad one you are taking control of your own growth and your own redevelopment your choices how you're thinking and that i think is invaluable invaluable so and so it's just written in such a way where you could almost you know pick a chapter pick a day pick a topic and one of my favorite ones is when to start dating well which at the  women you know in my dad in my going to jeopardize getting alimony if he finds out i have a boyfriend it might go to lose my child if i bring my boyfriend over so women have those questions all the time and you girls kind of address little bit of that in this book so yeah  now they're in my free time because some people have children and now they have time they never had before if they're had every other weekend they might have a what do i do it myself so some people want to date right away other people really want to wait and kind of go through a healing process either way just fine but we two if you make it there is if you had a great date with someone and then you just never heard from them again the why would you feel like he's lost or would you be crying and kind of feel like it was a real emotional setback and if you're at the as well off like i'm great catch you are ready to write because dating is adding kind of another emotional absolutely on top of what you're already going through so people who venture out maybe when they're feeling not quite ready i think it's not always the best so when they're ready to do your new future right as you are withholding information not paying support for your kids could be bad right so so as fresh and it's again that that that young and young right so as you're healing and you want to move on and you do want to feel loved again and you want to feel like you belong be aware of where you are in your case and how much information you should be sharing especially how quickly you introduce the significant other to maybe small children but again go back here and balance have a resource so you know you're you're understanding kind of how to navigate the s this this partnership here because you know for you caroline know you're working with clients and you're giving them a copy of the book you can make reference to some of this even from a legal perspective  and it's this is a little roadmap right exactly what it is because it's a road map and it makes my life easier because i know that people are reading and thinking about the things that they miss or to want to talk to me about white let's focus on the financials that we need to get done or the other things but this is just and you know what i love about this too is that it's kind of like just looks pretty good when you're not is and i would never do before it's very weighty right so you're getting a lot of knowledge about what you're the place of sitting in the lawyers office or sitting in the  court room where you're just not it's just not a good time to have something pes stelly and pretty and filled with so much information right just makes me happy just to do young mothers who get there what to expect great like this is this is the equivalent  exactly well it's interesting you know they i appreciate of course we go to appreciate you saying that what we are so amazed by all the time is are the misconceptions especially legal misconceptions that so many men and women have about  divorce things like well we've been married for ten years so i'm going to get half of everything i don't need to go back to work there's no question about it or i'm the mother so of course i get to choose what kind of custody where they're going to live all of these things  so many misconceptions everything will get split by that down the middle no matter what these you can write me if i write aren't necessarily true so getting the right information during this process is critical also if you happen to be in a situation where you are a woman who has taken a backseat and you are with someone who is acting as though they know everything a lot of women are bullied into believing things that aren't true and then they don't get a fair hate so i think it's very important to do what you need to do to hire the right professionals to guide you to set up that network and you know and to what you're saying in addition to you ladies bringing in the right people into some of your groups that you offer and having the speaker come into to dispel this misconception i've started a platform years ago called a smart woman knows how to protect our said yes because whether you are divorced saying whether your you know burying your spouse or whether your spouse is going to be disabled and can't work you need to be prepared so starting from you know the simplistic approach of where do we bank how do appear a credit card bills do i have a mortgage is there a college fund is a retirement fund with the right insurance women often start their own businesses during you know the marriages what happens to that so all of this is critical and that team that you put together when you're getting divorced of course has to happen but i'd like to rewind it back a little bit and put your team together as a woman building a support system yes you should always have that team right so for people that aren't even going through a divorce i think that reading this book or coming to one of my workshops or joining the women entrepreneurs or some of the other great things that were part of it's just good to invest in yourself yeah so when life throws you a curve ball and you get that shocked look on your face you don't like i got this  i mean you just mentioned the word sisterhood which is one of my favorite terms because they think it's so important and when carolina nine met each other we let men each other through window while boxer ization leading women and mares fantastic organization heartfelt women executives that are just explosive in terms of their success everybody comes to the table with this feeling of really desiring that sisterhood and building those types of relationships that you know guess what something happens that's my that's my network that's my sisterhood that i'm going and what's incredible about that network and now these ladies obviously are going to join the network a new the network just grows and grows is that we have vetted professionals that we all work with that we could refer to so somebody comes to there one of your groups or they're buying your book and they're at a book signing in their mentions and you know oh i know someone or i know someone in princeton or wherever you are because now there's the trust factor right people get to know you in the trust you say whether you're going to potential refer they're going to trust all the more yeah and it's so great to be a part of something whether you have a great book on your and table you're part of an organization where you know that you have the resource you made a point were prepping that women felt or you felt when you're going through a divorce said you didn't know where the resources were it was so difficult to put your hands on it you didn't realize that for divorce specific that there were real lack of resources and when you're going out looking for them googling it which you're not finding anyth right i mean yeah yeah you know you google what i always say people google and they find what they want to find so for the woman that's been married for ten years and think she's going to get permanent albert if you will she'll find something where prior to the statue modification twenty four t mean you know i think if you're out there googling divorce attorneys that can be really scary ok i mean if you don't have a frame of reference if you don't even understand the different types of divorce slowly that's something we have  read this you will be able to formulate the questions during the consultation that consultation sometimes is that one of the most important meetings you're going to have before you start the jury right it's that was on so many levels because listen i mean we we were talking with someone the other day and he would say you know they are like what is that the advice that you could give someone who wants to feel better today yeah everything around them is in shambles they just started either they just heard the news or they just left and they said you know  it's easy to tell people it's going to get better which is the truth and i think we're all proof that it does take time but i think when you're in it and it's fresh sometimes it helps to say what is the very next right thing i can do he even if it's a baby step and continue down that path of just taking the next right step even if there are small steps just to continually find yourself forging a new path and going in a direction of your choice which is a better direction and i google stocking my x you know right now you know every step of the way we try to help people make that decision yeah and constructive his finest book i think i don't think you're seriously right we have discussed this several times now there are there are resources  you know not seventy four ways to make a budget with spreadsheets and all this overwhelming stuff and also we found so many books on the topic were written by people who had never been divorced and that's right and i think that you know as audiences out  there you know pick a divorce attorney that practices and focuses on divorce right and pick up a resource that had that was written by people that walked the walk right and so this is where we're going to supply some information carolina tell people how they can get in touch with us so carolina den hard in short hills nine seven three three seven nine forty eight hundred just launched my own website carolina denard as squire dot com where i put together all these great platforms i'm a part of and give you stories of what i've seen what i've been through and encouragement so that's can people get their hands on this well you can find optimus guide to divorce on amazon and any other bookstore also visit our website after this guy to divorce and you can visit you on twitter suzanne chris and joe i'm