morning welcome to changes the program on sustainability once again back on the air live with you in the studios of c h o i am lois lane downtown and imo i'm susan gregory the coordinating producer and it's my pleasure this morning to introduce actually a new host who used to be part of our team for some time now but this is your first time on the air travis barrington the current education we decided to transition in about two thousand and three i'm just simply taking perfectly good materials to the landfill and start looking into the recycling and the wonderful world of zero waste  resource recovery and sustainability so we morphed over to that and then we started our reuse part of our business and and we kind of did our own because there's no real government funding you can get for that so  after about ten eleven years here we are and we're now part of an organization formed here to help stop incinerators and in canada part of zero ways canada and so it really there's a connectivity on how we manage our discards more sustainably and the wonderful world of zero waste where we start looking at engineering and designing waste of the system excellent so and so in your website you've left some awards in your recognize as a leader in resource recovery and i know that's a term you used a lot so how do you as a small independent recycle or differ from a larger waste management corporation or even recycling firm well the difference is that we choose to pick and salvage the debris that comes into our community and basically this is something that happens in europe and south america and a lot of asian countries where they scavenge they're basically called scavengers or waste pickers and there's an x factor in north america where we look at things people throw away as waste and when we started going down the sustainability path looking at different options and opportunities are managing our discards we've discovered urban or and berkeley california and  we found a facility over in gothenburg sweden that has turned it right around where they look at things people throw away as resources so we kind of modeled ourself after that and slowly one piece at a time started developing discard management system for our little facility that treats things people throw away as resources as opposed to discard and once you start to do that you  realize that just about everything we throw away has another life another option another use another reverse another repurposing another upcycling opportunity where you start to realize that these valuable discarded resources to be handled properly in our community we started having to hire people so we started out with two three people now we have twenty three we handle about the same amount of discards but by treating them differently as resources there's great local economic development opportunities in our community as well yes a lot of people wonder where there are cycling actually ends up when it's tak and a lot of concern that it goes places far overseas specifically china so how are you in developing local markets and local economies for the the resources that you're able to get people well the trick is is that most communities are are operating under community regional recycling contracts like that and i'm a recycling exchanges contracted with a regional district and we're contracted here there are not for profit we're a social enterprise for profit but it's the same thing happens it's it's how you manage the materials now and ari and georgi and a lot of companies and not for profits use what's called a source separated system and that means we're not  lot of stuff together and that assigns a higher value to it because it's not contaminated or soiled as easily as commingle things where you everything's in one box or tote subsequently that gives you an opportunity to utilize these materials locally if you want to but there are so few markets for local opportunities that the asian markets really are the only option so if you have clean commodities we get a higher price if they're clean but unfortunately they have to go overseas they're used to be quite a complex pacific northwest paper industry for using recycle material here locally one of the things that undermine that is the contamination rates are quite high in commingle recycling so it devalues the material and the the the folks that can handle that the easiest are the folks over in asia you have although shipping containers going back empty to pick up more of our consumables so there's a tie in there what we've been fighting for for years is to start to resurrect using local discarded recyclables back in british columbia in canada again in the pacific northwest so that we create those jobs over here we start to see higher recycled content and local packaging made and so on and so on the trick here is that the systems that are in place are kind of forcing us too utilize the existing infrastructure for handling these materials but one of the things that we chose to do is take styrofoam for example and start to create local opportunities and initiatives with us with those things to keep them out of our landfill and glasses we've done that the same as we bought from the quitman for aggregating our class locally here so it's not just used it's call it or landfill cover there are things in place but the way the system is designed it's really to kind of move it out of our communities and we're kind of looking at ways of maybe keeping some of that stuff in our communities because you ship out your waste you ship out your recyclables you ship out your jobs right and some resort to zach lee so those are resources yes like you said there there may not be a lot of value in them do you think there's any programs that could be initiated that would add value to them that would encourage them to stay within our local communities well normally there would have been but now that with the advent of multi materials b c local communities are going to lose access and control of these materials and m m b c stands for multi materials british columbia and they've been given the mandate under the ministry of environment to form a printed paper and packaging e p r i extended producer responsibility this plan it's really just kind of handling the materials and again having them leave our community under this mandate we're going to switch from a tax base funded recycling program to what's called an eco fee or user pay program where everything that has a packaging or comes in printed paper will have a little bit of an eco fee put on  there at the point of purchase problem with that is that we now lost access to the control of these bacteria less so an entity will now decide where those things will go we now no longer have a voice relief from a local community perspective we're talking about zero waste earlier one of our problems that we see is losing access to local control of recycle recycle discard is that some of the materials will be allowed to be used in an incinerator yeah so so that's where we kind of now are looking at the entire way the control of these materials will be impacting local communities all across the to columbia yeah so in doing some reading about this multi materials b c program i did find in the lot of the wording that it stipulates seventy five percent of the materials collected will be diverted from landfills and that doesn't necessarily mean they will be recycled or used in any way like you said it opens the door up for options that are not technically a landfill but still are not using that resource at all such as  and by doing it under this kind of like one size fits all platform which means what the program that works for downtown vancouver will be the same thing that works often williams lake which will work up  now which is we're up in port alberni and all our communities are different and i've never been a big fan of one fife it's all anything right i've always enjoyed going into a community like  i'm on looking at some of the unique shops and restaurants you have there i mean no knock on the chain stores but a community is built based on what you designed for the services we need in our communities and imo recycling exchange for example is like hornby island like gibsons recycling like bowen island or a cycling grips up in pender harbor these are part of the fabric of our community and when you get a one size fits all template that comes in and generally run by a monopoly that are from outside our communities they don't understand they don't have a connectivity to our communities so once you start doing some research on this i mean that's for me that's a strike right there and then once you realize that in the designing of multi materials b c they use something called the pollution prevention hierarchy in the pollution prevention hierarchy if you start to look at it is you're supposed to go from highest best use and you work your way down but at the end of the food chain there it's its disposal in landfills or incinerators now if you design a program that generates residual streams which is kind of like contaminated recyclables and you already have a mechanism in place that will allow that stuff to be incinerated it makes reasonable people go and say well how does that work with a lot of our regional districts who have existing sustainability departments and budgets and now like the nih i'm on the sunshine coast we now have zero waste departments those two things are diametrically opposed are a waste in its variations authentic and  so so we see that we're allowing some things to be designed that are going to impact our communities and our local recycling infrastructure both for profit and not for profit where we're not really getting much of a say in here and in the design of multi materials british columbia as a former board of director at the recycling council b c recyclers were not invited into the process to participate nor were small businesses and british clavier who are going to be hit hard like a pizza delivery outfit restaurant they're going to be hit with up to two hundred dollars charged extra charge per month for their cardboard pizza boxes so i think that i like the idea of extended producer responsibility but i think that in this case we've missed all stakeholders included has not happened we've missed that boat and what we're advocating for a loan for the potential for incineration this has to be taken back to the drawing board for that alone but the way recyclers were excluded from the design of multi materials b c i think that is agree just an outrageous and the ministry of the environment has to take a look at how our local community recyclers are going to be negatively impacted right across british columbia because as you mentioned earlier we use the term resource recovery we see more and more recycling operators and depots morphing into resource recovery where things are dealt with as resources as opposed to something to just keep putting into a pipe you know and this case would be recycling we've we've got to get past recycling and this kind of a program and the opportunity of dicking us to an ever ending cycle of feeding material into a recycling pipe when we should be looking at better designed material higher recycled content in the packaging and we don't see that in this plan at all so i think we're going to have to go to a station break in just two minutes so i can quickly ask you a question going back to the yard do you think that can still be a useful tool that extended producer responsibility if it's used on a more local and individualized level yes i do what's needed is it has to have flexibility in it so that it kind of has a component for each community if we if we design something that's top down one size fits all only that takes the flexibility component out of the the design of for whatever is going to happen in our local community and then it just becomes a shuffle game like collecting bailing densify movie get out of our community and and we don't really truly understand how that could have negative implications on local recyclers and local businesses so we need to take a second a close second look at that thank you ok i guess we  could just remind our listeners that you're listening to c h o i won a one point seven f m your campus and community station based in downtown and imo but heard wherever there's an internet connection at c h l y dot ca where stream live and podcast and but he we're going to leave you sort of on the line here while we do a quick community update so i hope that's ok with you that's ok great ok thanks just actually there's a lot going on this week today just for a little bit of background the federal conservative government recently passed something that people are calling the unfair elections act so today at noon there be a demonstration called let people vote a national day of action against the unfair elections act that will be at commercial street and terminal avenue in downtown and i'm all right on the corner again today at noon brought to us by the canadian federation of students the council of canadians and lead now dot ca and of course if you stop by they'll have information so that you can learn more about what's at stake tomorrow there are a whole bunch of things going on first of all campus burning day at vi you and that's presented by the vi you natural history museum there will be free birding tours leaving the museum at noon and one o'clock in the museum is that building three seventy three seven zero on the and imo campus there will also be bird banding demonstrations weather dependent outside the museum between eleven thirty am and i'm sorry eight thirty and eleven am and that's just drop in and you can just show up and see what's going on and if you are attracted buy food as most people are the vi you biology club will be hosting a barbecue from noon until one thirty you can r s v p a spot on the birding tours by signing up in the museum or emailing wendi dot sims ass lake sierra i am am ass at vi you dot ca and once again this is tomorrow eight thirty am to three pm all together at the natural history museum on the in and i will campus a vi you building three seven zero and it is free also tomorrow the kids day open house at the deep a marine field station join us as we celebrate spring break with the kids day open house the day will be filled with fun marine science activities suitable for all ages take part in a coloring contest get your face painted make art to take home and learn about the marine life on our coast staff will be on hand to answer your questions and introduce you to the many amazing animals that are at the station and there will actually be a bird banding demonstration there as well by dr eric demurs b c hydro power smart team will be on hand with energy conservation and sustainability activities  as mentioned face painting and fish printing with vi you fisheries and aquaculture students so once again tomorrow ten am to four pm admission by donation this is a kids day open seven four zero six six zero nine well something else that's tomorrow evening and this is part of the fabulous free science and technology lecture series that's been going on for a number of years at vi you tomorrow's topic is ocean acidification lessons from the open ocean to coastal areas speakers dr wiley evans from the pacific marine environmental lab in seattle washington at the university of alaska fairbanks ocean acidification research center in fairbanks alaska he's also an affiliate researcher at v you center for shellfish research and one reason for that i believe is that ocean acidification which is associated with c o two emissions that get dissolved in the  ocean this actually causes the shells of shellfish to start to dissolve and there have been some samples available via you so you could see what was happening to the shellfish this could impact our shellfish fishery our food supply is here on the b c coast so that's an important topic a wiley is a lead author on a number of papers describing coastal carbon cycling in waters from oregon to alaska so his talk once again tomorrow evening seven o'clock in the i'm a campus of vi you building three fifty six room one hundred nine and admission is free friday march twenty eighth there will be forum at the rose center on gabriel brought to us by sustainable gabriel law and the vancouver eco socialist group they're bringing writer and author richard from new york city to conduct a forum on the theme no to climate change yes to system to change again through this will be friday seven o'clock at the rose center on gabriel admission by donation dr richard smith is a university lecturer and writer of articles on climate and capitalism specifically why capitalism is driven by its economic imperatives to destroy the climate in his forthcoming book is to save the humans turn the world upside down he's also active in the system change not climate change network in new york and well let's just give some information here you can find out more at eco social ists very eco socialists vancouver dot org slash events  call six zero four seven seven three eight three nine three and finally a national day of action for anyone health accord that will be next monday march thirty first eleven am at the vault for ninety nine wallace street and downtown and i'm all for it teachin noon for a street action at the corner of commercial and terminal and downtown and imo the reason for this is that the canada health accord expires on march thirty first and the harper conservative government has refused to meet with the premier's to renew it also the last federal budget included massive changes to the canada health transfer so it is time to sound the alarm for public health care and you can find out more on the council of canadians website canadians dot org and this event is listed there as well  as a number of them that will be happening across the country the program that you are listening to on c h l why want to one point seven f m and imo is changes and today travis barrington is talking with because they were very interesting and fascinating and if i may say as a viewer you biology that anyone who can get out for the bird banding to morrow morning should definitely try and differently try to get there early because that's when the birds are out and if you can make it it's really amazing experience to see them up close and see how it's done yeah yeah i came in the state yeah but i guess getting back to our topic at hand if we can go a ways back buddy you know we were talking about c before and you brought up the point that it could harm a lot of small businesses not just recyclers but small businesses who have to purchase these products that will be affected by them n b c such as cardboard packaging and and that  i'm just wondering if i could try to find a silver lining in this program if these additional costs would maybe encourage businesses small and large to seek out alternatives for their packaging that are perhaps more recyclable or more valuable as a resource acidification and can i put a plug in for rob stewart his canadian filmmaker who made a wonderful film in two thousand and twelve called revolution revolution about ocean  it's it's really quite an eye opener so i'm really impressed with the stuff that you guys are doing over there and back to the the and maybe see the eco feed it's going to be imbedded in the price of things when we buy it so regardless of what the packaging is that fee is going to be charged and and i think a lot of people are concerned that the scope of this program  were my partner barb and i were involved in the design of policy and plenty committees of printed paper and packaging design with a whole bunch of other people years ago and one of the things or several of the things that we wanted in the plan was was that local accountability and having that flexibility built into the plan so we could address those kinds of things that you just mentioned another cornerstone position one for us was to to force producers to actually make better packaging so that we kind of get a line here there is an incentive to make better packaging as well as using more recycled content and looking at opportunities to get industries and back in british columbia that make packaging and use recycled content and in kind of create a symbiotic plan where these things are addressed and that and the key thing of the mall was to force better design in this plan so that we can get more  refillable packaging more usable packaging better kinds of packaging and that this really has fallen off the radar screen with this plan it's reading not there the incentives are gone so if we want to get ourselves into  a system that we could have an influence from our community how it impacts local businesses how it impacts local recyclers and recycling programs and infrastructure it's going to be redy hard to way this thing is rolling out because again it's a one size fits all template so if let's say for example denial had this stated little cool company you know twenty employees making sustainable reusable packaging from recycled materials and that that means nothing in this plant this is this is going to be just another packaging material that goes into the recycling stream and the amount of  refill that's part of this program is reading not there so it's it's going to be it's going to be implemented with a brand new consumer tax hidden in the price of things are embedded in the price that local communities will have no say over the big picture aspect of it if that makes any sense to travis no definitely that was yeah very very light and lightning and if i may to i would also like to second your plug for the ocean mentioning a lot of talk about redesigning packaging and having an incentive for that so that it is more reusable for end of life refill and reuse and that has a philosophy that comes up a lot when are we believe strongly in that i think that's a good vehicle to put the pressure on the producers in the manufacturers to to be kind of niger guided into a direction or a direction that fits of launched ways canada was in direct the direct threat from the proliferation of incinerator is being proposed for canada we've got lots of friends and allies in the durham region in ontario ontario was hit first and it was hit hard and it was a real wake up call for those of us i mean though i'm a business where her mental business were more like a social enterprise we're still an environmentalist i never check check that ha at the door so they're not diametrically opposed being a business and still being an environmentalist but what we found out is especially from the durham region who got stuck with an incinerator they the entire coming together of environmentalist is not for profits and business isn't mom them pops i'm trying to fight this this disease this wretched disease called garbage incineration they lost and we learned a lot of valuable lessons there that the time is now that we have to start working and pulling together and i'm going to tell you this right now we've met some people in a nine will who are just the most dedicated environmental the smart business people and not for profits and an ordinary folks that it's incredibly inspiring for us now and we've kind of connected with the back or over there and he and a couple of other guys at the a and then craig and and jan and and just regular folks so we can see that in the building of a grassroots movement to take on this well funded well financed garbage burning machine this is equipment they're selling equipment they have a lot of money and they have access to our elected officials and our public servants like we don't have so in order to be taken seriously we figured forming zero ways canada at this point in time a couple of years ago the timing was right because we've done a lot of research and study on this and because we're in the discard management business we know there is far superior ways of handling local community discards and recyclables and the monopolization of the flow streams that seems to be coming with incinerators because they have to have supply and now with multi materials b c local access and local say is being deferred to these monopolies many of whom don't even live in canada and and i think that the time has come for an organization to to on a national level to take on not only the incinerator folks but also the the folks who've decided to brand zero waste as their own like metro vancouver has who's formed the zero waste committee and the national zero waste council all with taxpayers money which have nothing to do is there a way it's just a branding opportunity and any of your listeners out there they know all about green wash this is the granddaddy of green washes bogus zero waste coming come together so that everybody in british columbia understands what zero waste actually is and it really is about looking at where stuff is made that's where zero waste are we engineer waste out of the system and we're connected with an international organization called the zero waste international alliance and we're the official canadian delegate for this international organization and and and we've kind of learned and we're being mentored by a lot of folks who are educating us about how zero waste works the real true nature of cost of a garbage incinerator and perpetual landfilling so resorts destruction is the polar opposite of zero waste and whichever method that takes for resorts destruction we have to kind of push the bar here a little bit to raise it and start looking at what we're about to sign onto because without due diligence without doing some research and without learning about what we're about to sign onto that promise of free money that that easy easy solution you know lift leaden throw make it go away in reality in life we've learned we should be mimicking nature not making stuff go away because in nature there is no way there's no way for plastic in nature so we have to kind of realign the compass heading here a little bit and ways canada is is it is really kind of an interesting grassroots movement of all kinds of a collective people who've kind of come onboard to to ask questions about incineration about recycling about disposal and and we're just regular folks who see a need and an opportunity to maybe push back against these one size fits all easy fixes like p p p e p r i and incinerator and we're not in favor of land feeling either so by having some experience in this industry we know that such it's so easy and so cost effective to come up with alternative to endless land selling and burning of the literature i've been reading it's always painted as one or the other either an incinerator or a landfill and language changing from things like zero waste to zero landfill and even  the language of the incinerator it's not it's an incinerator it's a energy recovery center or something like that and it is fairly transparent but it's it's still getting this message out there and there's a lot of a lot of backing behind that message so it is reaching a lot of people unfortunately well that's where the phony zero waste comes in here because i've got a good friend who recently came up for a site to or from the fraser valley and it's the different backgrounds but we have the same objective here is to keep incinerators out of our communities and that doesn't mean out of our community we want to keep it out to your community as well and that's why the nimby thing is really important not my backyard not anywhere not anywhere in civilized society should we have garbage incinerated this is insanity on steroids but it's managed to get some traction because the wave that precedes a garbage incinerator is money and that money buys a lot of lunches and a buys junkets to fancy places to come and look at incinerators and all kinds of little things and i think that given an equal playing field i think the opportunity for the third option which we call resource recovery that time is now we don't need to be keep constantly looking at end of life throwaway solutions i mean in victoria i forget the name of the point ogden point i think that's where the garbage used to go from the garbage tells we've tried sinking garbage we've tried burying it now these oil salesmen have come up with this brilliant idea to burn it and the obvious thing here has to be finally to look at the third option maybe there's another option between that's impossible no it's not i come my background is a music i use on a record store in vancouver in the eighty's and we used to have this debate there's not there's not a chance that you're going to get people who've built up their record collections and or cassette collections for decades we're going to switch over to compact this well not only did we switch over we bought new machines we ran for the stores to get this new stuff we've already proven if the incentive is there change big change can happen on a global level quite easily the trick here is we have to put it into the system and it's not attractive this isn't puppies and kittens this is garbage it's wast and what we have to do is start putting the right people in positions of authority who understand this business of recycling and discard management and waste handling and i think that if we actually do that we can start building a better foundation for different options and solutions because there's a lot of people out there who will tell you there's nothing we can do we can only landfill it or burn it well that's b s i say there is a better solution we've proven it we've built an award winning little business that manages inc manages our discards here it's scalable this could work in any community and it didn't cost taxpayers a penny to subsidize it we just built it ourselves so could you imagine what we could have of we went to other communities and started linking arms and working together and sharing these ideas what we could do because there's a lot of money in this this department solid waste we're just not allocating it in the right areas and we're not bringing the right people in that could actually solve the problem we seem to be having an abundance of people who can talk about solving the problem and those who can do are kept on the fringes c didn't invite recyclers in to participate into the biggest recycling program changing b c history no recyclers were welcomed into the plan at the design level so that's where our problem is travis and i think the solutions are easy if we start putting people into office who may be moved from number nine and eight the environmental problems that we face as canadians maybe up to three and four you know we've got to get a higher priority with people in elected office on this because at the end of the day fixing all the economic things and all the other problems we have is as a nation as a community don't mean anything if we don't have clean air clean water oil clean so we all grow our food and does it exactly does that disconnect that's been so prevalent in the last well it's not trying to it's you know it's not it's not a hot button issue because economics and things like that and you know they they always take a president and when we keep putting unimagined of people in elected office and not i've met a lot of really good people elected office so i have hope but we have to stop vetting these people like this have to be election issue question number one do you support a garbage incinerator yes or no there's no areas of gray here we do not have to go and look at reports right like this is a simple do you like smacking yourself in the head with a brick yes or no this is that kind of question yeah and you brought up the economics again and that's another argument that i hear and read a lot of is that we have a t v these fairly high diversion rates  in other communities from our landfill but everyone always says that last twenty percent the last thirty percent we could do it but it's not economical when i have what i've been reading what confuses me about that stance is it's not economical to recycle they say because there's no money in it but you can still get some value as a resource from it whereas if you land fill it or burn it there's absolutely zero value to it so i don't understand how that argument can keep being made that it's not economical do you think that last twenty and thirty percent it's going to have to come down to not businesses not government but like you said use social enterprise for your depot there it's going to have to come down to individuals creating the social enterprises absolutely and and it has to happen at the home this isn't something that's going to happen in the r d m or the s c or d c this has to happen at home so if our government keep giving a bad poorly designed collection method that's the system we have to play with we don't have to have that there are better options ourselves we decided not to get gas guzzlers to go to our community pick up we decided to switch over to electric vehicles electric trucks it's way less profitable it's working more expensive but it works it's the right thing to do and we have to look at this from a prevention point of view not a reaction point of view and anybody that knows anything about health care what's easier what's cheaper what's more cost effective teaching our citizens our kids in the school right from day one how to eat healthy how to how to do it and treat ourselves so that health and prevention is the biggest component here and what do we get in our communities fast food joints every three blocks and we fix things after they go wrong well solid waste is like that too and we really we don't look at the front end we look at the back and so one of the things a lot of people in the zero waste movement say is we need to switch from the end of the pipe how we deal with stuff that comes out of the end of the pipe and look at the front of the pipe how we prevent feeding stuff into there and designing mechanisms at the local level that can address that concern the way things are right now we have prevention is very low down on the scale waste of boyden says you almost never hear that and pushing for manufacturers to be responsible for their useless crap they're  making is getting farther and farther away and replaced with programs that don't actually force them to do that so by looking at the front of the pie travis we have to look at everything that goes into our economy into our way stream and analyze it almost like a waste on it so that we see what's going in there where is it going what could happen with it locally here in our community and stop looking at this as what i now call which seems to be happening in regional governments all across british columbia the one legged stool principle and it seems to be always around economics only in the true three legged stool principle there's the social and then and environmental aspect they don't exist anymore they might in rhetoric but they don't really exist when you design things because everything is deferred to how cheap we can get it for as opposed to looking at is this the right thing to do or is this something preventative we could add and equating costs to something that can harm our vironment i think is a slippery slope that we need to start pulling ourselves away from and from community community one other time individuals at our homes we are the ones that bring this stuff in our homes and we are the ones that should be responsible for get off this free ride of cheap collection at the curb recycling and collection all those things and i remember even growing up that reduce reuse recycle and i something we actually lament we're talking at the n r a a lot is nobody ever seems to mention reduce anymore about right their waste or responsibility as well so what are some of the main things that individuals listen to this program wherever they are what are some of the main actions they can take in this move towards zero waste one of our dear friends  actually to them generous myron and and grant made a film called the clean bin project many of you might have seen that some of your listeners and they challenge themselves to make no garbage for a year they were i met them at a conference in whistler and they came up to us we had made a presentation about her place and he said we've never seen it like that before could we make a documentary short video of your place and we should sure yeah whatever and never thought any more about it but they tuned in to their movie and at the conference i was at we got to see their movie it's about an hour long about two ordinary people in their thirty's who went and lived  entire year without creating waste buying bringing jars with them and it's actually a really good movie i highly recommend the clean bin project because that should be essential in every school in british columbia canada and it addresses things at the home at the individual level and we need to have that connectivity to real leaders who know how to lead who are not afraid to lead at the elected level i've met some of them and i'm inspired like i've never been before that there is hope i feel hope that we have some really good people in elected office are m l a nickel assignments here this guy is he's he's interested he ask questions he's wanting to learn doug wrote lee over and your area there's so many people that are trying to make that connection to the individuals from the elected level as opposed to these big behemoth programs we have to connect at the individual level and we don't have to go very far back in history the second world war to see what happened when our elected officials went to the public and said for the effort for the war effort this is the way we're going to do stuff and if you look back and if you do any reading you look at your history anything anybody threw away had a home in all across north america and europe why can't we do that again why can't we why can't we make a war on wast and do that again and put people in elected office and start utilizing that we don't have to use engineers all the time and the same old consultants these are garbage people why don't we use zero waste and sustainability and recycling people and and innovators to design team unity discard we've got a disconnect we have to reconnect with local leaders who are connected to their constituents about this epidemic problem that others are seeing these moronically one size fits all light a match make it go away solutions this should not even see the light of day in any community on earth yet here it is on our doorstep in our community and how sound in your community at two point how is this gotten to this to this level what we're at the precipice of seeing new garbage incinerators and i doubt very much there's many listeners to your program here that have ever been to the burnaby garbage generator  i used to drive for smith right disposal in the eighty's i went into that beast and i tell you right then i was off those things as a driver driving garbage trucks and how they've resurfaced i'll never know but money does a lot of things and we need to get back to basics and zines stuff that's fit for our communities and start rewarding good behavior stop paying for bad behavior that's and yeah i think it's important to note that a lot of  personal behavior is not change without some sort of incentive like you were saying during the war effort there's always that document push or something and now it seems the only incentive is the message being broadcast is always to buy more that's what helps the economy that's what helps us get out of this this yes contrarian or something like that and yeah it just has to be so do you find that for your program with people coming in and sorting the recycling are things like that they need some sort of incentive is it a sort of personal feeling of doing good that is giving them that push well i think education is the key to everything we're educators we're in the education business and if you put the right message out there and you create something that people can utilize that is that works for them it's not complicated you have good signage they'll use the trick here is you have to build it if you don't build it they people can adapt they can switch over really the no more recycling exchange and one of the island recycling salt spring bowen island which is called bird borne island recycling people these  early groundbreaking resource recovery centers that's what they are before there was even a term for it and these are the places the acres where we not only cherish what we have but we expand on and create more of them as we start to look at some of the solutions that are coming down the pipe it's really about lift lid and throw make it go away and i have an anomaly anonymous disconnect with the things i throw away we advocate get away from get organics out right away no glad garbage bags allowed only clear garbage bags so that when they get to the processing facility we could see what's in them start pulling them apart the very few things that could change the dial move the dial here are very cost effective really easy to do and reward good behavior because now your community is seen as being part of the solution instead of how it's seen now as being part of the problem and if we're going to get change on any level it has to start with education and there's no better educators than people who do this on a daily basis and this is no slight to people coming out of university or in like that but if you haven't been in this business theoretical waste managers are like theoretical pilot i'm not flying with a theoretical pilot i want somebody who's got experience in it and i think i think if we start moving things in that direction from the top down the bottom up and meeting in the middle we've got a shot at this i am optimistic i'm going to not in my lifetime are we going to see incinerators new incinerators in british columbia and i think people the more informed they become the more they start to realize this is really just an opportunity to continue with throwing things away they have no value as we educate that everything has value you'll see that these people will have to go elsewhere to sell these garbage burning machines remember they're a machine a half billion dollar machine and we say in civilized society or any society they have no place yeah thank you  buddy i think we're nearing our end and i just want to say thank you again for coming in speaking to us that was very inspiring and very informative and diffuse anything to close with we've got about one minute left i do have something to close with barb and i were invited over to know i am a last week and we had a delightful time and you guys have such a cool community and and i'm telling you that i've been going and i'm all for years when i used to be in the logging business and some of the improvements that have gone over there it's really encouraging so we're hopeful that there's enough people over there with common sense who will drive this beast out of your community and hopefully you'll help us when it comes here because they're trying to come here but in closing i'm going to tell y you did a pretty good job this is your first gig and and i feel honored to be your first interview we can thank you very much for allowing me to interview interview you're very welcome and thank you very much for the opportunity much to you travis for bringing buddy to us today that was a very exciting and inspiring conversation is a very yes yes indeed so we'll look forward to perhaps hearing more from him and to your your next interview as well yeah for doing now that i've got the first one under my belt right great soul that is our show changes is heard every tuesday morning at eleven here on c h l why do check us out on facebook stay tuned now for native solidarity news and on behalf of our production team thanks so much for joining us