welcome my name is natasha sherman and i am your host today show is part of a series i've been doing on the opioid epidemic in new jersey and there is an epidemic and my guest today is mariel she is the executive director of am and foundation and we'll talk more about that but i want to tell you a little bit about mariel mariel battled with alcohol and drug addiction bipolar disorder and believe me and her vosa for all her teenage years she is formerly incarcerated a convicted felon formerly homeless and a sex trafficking survivor she entered recovery in may of two thousand and seven and has maintained abstinence based recovery since then since two thousand and twelve in an effort to bring a face and a voice to recovery as well as demand the civil rights of those who suffer those who have lost their battle and those in recovery mariel has immersed herself wholeheartedly in mental health addiction and criminal justice reform work welcome so you know it's really quite astonishing you've lived you're not that old and you've packed a lot in there sure and some of it not so good but here you are you know surviving thriving kind of the poster child for the possibility of recovery really so i'd like to talk a little bit about your history we don't have to get into the nitty gritty but i think it's so important because i've interviewed people on different aspects of addiction and what's clear is there's no easy answer there's no easy solution there's no one size fits all but i think the more we talk about it the more people have the opportunity to possibly find themselves in somebodies story and give them hope for so as a teenager you were going through a lot how did you become addicted and what did you become addicted to short so i don't have like one tremendous catalyst to write to tell you about which i know is many people's stories for me i believe that i was in pain at a young age with social pain emotional pain which living forwards and understanding backwards i have to believe that had that had something to do with a chemical imbalance because i come from a home full of love i don't have any circumstances that are you know illustrated of of traumatic  painful abuse neglect that's that's not my experience may experience however is from a young age there was just always something kind of wrong and alcohol and drugs or a method of self medication same thing with an eating disorder and way before that were things like temper tantrums and misbehavior and stealing so again living forwards and understanding backwards for me it becomes very clear that i was self medicating from a young age to try to feel ok and i think that's human i think we all are just trying to feel ok in my god crazy tragic weird fabulous beautiful world yes in this incarnation as a human being you know and you know i don't know if you're familiar with mat so one of the things he wrote this book in the in the realm of hungry ghosts or something like that no i haven't read the book but he talks about it is you know he talks about drugs and substance abuse or any kind of addiction kind of putting a you know blank getting over some pain sure and he thinks it's you know basically all addictions kind of come from that i think his description though is like these hungry ghosts with big bellies who never get enough and they have these tiny throats and they can't swallow a lot and so they're always hungry and i think part of it is the human condition as you describe it we're all hungry for something and we're not all trained to look for we're trained to deal with that or even be ok with it and recognize it is just part of our humanity and so we look outside of ourselves i think in neatly as humans part of the condition is that we're seekers i think that some people have a harder time finding what they're seeking than others  and for those people i believe it's much easier and that you know the lifelong debate of you know does the chicken cross the road first you know yeah so i i believe there had to have been some chemical imbalance something that i felt this incessant need to medicate to look for to feel ok and for me instead of finding that in choir or academia or athletics for me i found that in things like an active eating disorder and substance misuse so how long did that go on so i mean the first time that i dabbled in alcohol and drug misuse was probably young i consider young probably eleven total levon years old and then i entered recovery when i was twenty one the i wasn't however in full fledged full blown active addiction you know for all of those eleven years so i mean my substance misuse really crossed the line probably my senior year of high school when i was seventeen right so i want to ask you a question because i think people find this hard to understand you know people who have no contact direct contact but i think we all have in direct contact there just not aware of it ye or so there are people who say well why did you start in the first place or it's your fault or you could have blah blah blah i so when you're in full blown addiction what is your world like sure so and i think that it is important to recognize you know when we have that debate about choice absolutely is there a choice at some point right right yes i think that's really important  point and i'm not a doctor so i'm not going to really get into like the neurological effects of it but what i've come to understand is that alcohol and drug misuse changes your brain chemistry and at the point once you've crossed that line whatever that line is and i think it's also different for people based upon their history their experiences their traumas their body tele you know all sorts of different aspects once that line is crossed that choice is is not really there and i like to liken it to to you know survival right and thinking about it what's a regular human need that people have so think about food and water yeah right and so think about the lengths that you might be willing to go if you hadn't had food in three weeks right you might become willing to do what you do this there's someplace that you could get it right you might be willing to do some things yet to acquire food and beverage for your own survival and my experience in full blown active addiction is that my survival became contingent on accessing alcohol and drugs i think that's such a key point is is that it the experience is my survival depends on this and you're not in choice anymore your just dealing with survival rates yeah and i think people need to know that so then what was the impetus for you to stop was there any one thing or a series of things sure so again living forward i'm standing barack yes it's very clear to me now that there was a series of circumstances unfortunate or fortunate however you could you know encapsulate it that certainly led to me entering recovery but ultimately the bottom line at the end was that i got arrested and i got put into jail and that was kind of how that happened it was it was not a choice yet it was you know a removal yes from the ability to access alcohol and drugs right and how long were you in incarcerated i think about five weeks when i was in jail and when you came out were you ready to use again or were you now had a plan no so i was thinking about using the whole time that i was in jail which i also think is really important to kind of really clarify that it's not just a physical problem it certainly is physical dependence an issue but that really what's going on is emotional and mental  because that psychological dependence on drugs and alcohol is just as powerful if not more powerful than the physical dependence so so no i had every intention on using and my personal experiences i believe that there was some divine intervention and a moment of clarity that was not of myself and you know i had a choice to go one way or the other and i went one way and i continued to make different decisions than i'd ever made before wow wow so did you go into rehab or series of rehab because that's one of the things i think people also have a hard time with like going to rehab ok you're done one and done you know what's what's wrong with you right and sometimes it's  rehab rehab rehab out until you know hopefully at some point there's success well and i think that speaks to a much larger issue than just me i think that systemically we treat addiction as an acute issue and it's not  and so we look at treatment as this twenty eight day process which i think does a entirely large disservice to somebody and then we look at relapse as failure  right and that's not the way we look at any other chronic progressive treatable illness wow that's really significant yeah and that terminology we look at it is acute and we have to treat it bam you're out and we have to wait for it to get to a certain stage before we treat it right so i mean and i think about other chronic treatable progressive illnesses right and so let's think about diabetes right or cancer right when and i have two family members my uncle died of diabetes and the mother is in remission for a long period of time now from breast cancer right they didn't wait until she was stage four right to treat her right and then every time you know my amputated another toe they amputated another toe his leg and then he died right and that's not exactly the the series right but never once was he refused care or was he told that it was his fault that you know wasn't getting better or was he shamed for his inability or unwillingness to do the things that had been suggested to him in regards to lifestyle changes yet because of the stigma associated with addiction that's not how someone who's suffering from addiction is treated so you did you go into a rehab after that or so i not after that ok prior to that i'd been in several cellar several treatment facilities  and then there's the breakdown so you go into rehab like you said it's not a one and done so you go into rehab what would have helped after that that would have prevented you from going into the next rehab having to go into shore so i think that one of the largest areas that we're missing the boat when it comes to treating addiction is recovery support services again looking at addiction as this acute issue right  what next especially for young people right so i have now lost the one thing that kind of identifies fun and excitement and being a normal you know young adult unfortunately that culture is very much in mashed in alcohol and drugs to lose weight and so what am i going to do like mitt and bowl for the rest of my line right what type of aftercare is there you know do i have peers that are in recovery that are my age my pursuing education do i have health care do i have a stable place to live do i have peer support do i have ongoing therapy do i have all of these different variables that kind of set someone up for success opposed to kind of removing the alcohol or drugs and then saying go figure it out yourself right oftentimes returning right back to whatever environment i was in you know with whatever those conditions were prior yeah yeah so what would you like to see happen and now i know your working for the m and a foundation correct and their commitment is to provide education educational support like sending people to school and so talk a little bit about that chore so just to clarify that we don't send people to school or provide education we try to remove the barriers that stand in the way of someone getting to school and what are so very goller ships right financial barrier but that has to also be coupled with skills right so if you don't know how to be a successful student it doesn't matter if you have the money to go to college right and so some of those almost rudimentary life skills that oftentimes can get overlooked that maybe have never been learned because of active use starting at such a young age or have been lost through the you know the darkness of active addiction so things as simple as time management money management you know resume writing self care how to study these almost very rudimentary things that are not rudimentary for someone who's kind of learning how to live again and i have news for you most people don't have highly developed skills in all those areas you know i'm a life coach i work with people who are you know forty fifty's sixt and who are lacking these skills so these are skills that really should be being taught in high everywhere but especially as you say you know because people have either not learned them there's been an a huge interrupt so besides so i mean foundation provides the support to support people on how to succeed in school to hopefully you know provide some kind of financial support so what exactly so let's say i'm coming out of or i'm in recovery and i've come out of a rehab ideally what's the ideal scenario this somebody says you should go back to school and i think i have this  vague sense of you know there's something i'd like to do i'd like to get a college degree i'd like to own my own business what what are the various areas of support that you think are really important that would have eased the way for you sure i mean and i really think that it goes back to looking at an entire continuum of care right from preventative services to recovery support services and i think recovery support services is the largest gap when it comes to treating addiction right and so there's no exact answer because everybody circumstances are different and everyone's needs are different which i also think is important that we stop looking at this one size fits all right some people need medication assisted treatment some people need stable housing other people may have stable housing other so there's so many different variables but the four things that i always kind of fall back on all come from the idea of purpose right and i think that that also goes to the human condition and goes to the idea of thinking i think that we need to have purpose we need to have connection right and so supporting that for me comes through health care housing education and employment and that looks different for everybody though some people may have a master's degree when they enter recovery they probably don't need to go back to school right some people may be homeowners some people may not have a driver's license some people may not have been to the dentist in three years i think those needs are very different but i think it's about supporting somebody if i if i'm in recovery and i feel purposeless and i feel like i don't have anything going on i can't take care of myself i'm broke why would i not reengage in you if living in recovery is not better than living when i was using y and you know this whole idea of purpose is really interesting because you know sometimes people feel like they're failing in my experience with some of my clients so people feel like they're failing because they don't feel like they're they've discovered their ultimate purpose you know like and certainly there are people who had a very young age you know know that they want to be a physician or this or that or it doesn't happen for most people and i think  and my day to day purpose is to manage my wellbeing and my studies absolutely it doesn't have to be about the esoteric question of like who am i and why am i here i think purposeful is a great way to put it like  wake up and feel good about what i'm doing and who i am and then those various support services tie into that what do i need to feel good about me and who i am maybe it's therapy maybe it is finding a group of peers right maybe it is going back to school or getting that driver's license that i've been terrified to take the test for two years or maybe it's going back to a dentist i mean when i entered recovery i hadn't been to a dentist in three years and between my active believe me and my active addiction like i had holes in my gums by the time i finally went and needed intensive periodontal care for two years right and so like my teeth are writing out and i don't feel good about myself that's a very large reason or very large catalyst for me to be like will screw this you know why am i going to continue so you know there are all these needs who then gets to provide them so that's a big question  think that the burden falls on all of our shoulders and my hope is i think that philanthropy plays a very large part in in standing the tides of addiction i think if we look at other chronic preventable treatable illnesses people have stood up and have donated millions and millions of dollars so if i were a philanthropist with millions of dollars to give i have a business card  so you know where would you it's like you want this central clearing house you know services where somebody comes and says hey here's what i need and you can point them in that direction right well and i get i think that it also depends on the community you're in there's no one quite answer the needs in camden new jersey are different than the needs and point pleasant new jersey right there are some that are the same but then there are the vast amount of them are very different right and so when i say philanthropy i think that obviously state and federal funding is that local funding is important as well but i think philanthropy is vital in battling this through donating to local agencies donating to local foundations donating to research there's very little research in the scope of the brain addiction mental health and specifically recovery and that's like also a catch twenty two if you want to put money toward something but if you don't have quantifiable data that says this matters and this makes a difference so i think research is also very important in the long term for you know how are we going to deal with with opioid misuse for my children for you know in twenty years right yeah and i think you know as we've said over and over again there's no  easy solution but there are many solutions and you don't have to look for the perfect solution you just have to engage somehow if you can't right because this is so multi pronged and the fact is there is an epidemic and the fact is we're not winning the battle right now so and it is affecting absolutely everybody either peripherally or you know six degrees of separation or directly so we have a few minutes left i want to ask you is there anything along the way for you and i know the answer is different for everybody that anybody could have said or done or intervened in some way so i think that's a hard question specifically because of my personal beliefs where i really believe that divinely my path was as it was supposed to be laid out right however when i think about some of the things that perhaps could have been different i do think about general knowledge and understanding and why i'm so vocal specifically about my struggles as well as being in recovery is one of the things i know is very true is when i was nineteen years old i didn't know that people got well i just was unaware that recovery was real and without that connection and not that i would have gotten better younger but it was so far off my radar that getting well was a possibility or an option that it wasn't something that i even thought about once the idea of recovery was introduced to me it became more accessible so i guess almost my call to action for people in recovery is we have to make sure that we're being a face and a voice for recovery so that people know it exists for that person who's never heard of a or methadone or treatment or therapy or maybe generationally have grown up in a in a culture that those things aren't a reality due to religion or socioeconomic status or whatever so i think talking about recovery in your community in your family in your vital you know that's so interesting because it's so much around addiction is secrecy right and so secrecy promotes that whole idea if you if you're very secretive about it you don't even know the options  you haven't been talking to anybody who could tell you that there are these options because it's hidden so i think that's really key this whole idea of actually even presenting the possibility of recovery and talking about if your kid had cancer all of your neighbors would be bringing over casseroles and off and what you could do to help right if your kid is addiction you don't talk about it if your husband is addiction you don't talk about it because of this shame and i really think what's vital is this transition from this stigmatizing idea of you know you have a choice it's your fault it's you know people who are who are engaged in this behavior is because they're bad people really this facilitating this transition to chronic progressive treatable brain disorder and without that i think we're going to continue to not only lose people but see overdose deaths continue to rise i think the stigma associated with the shame of addiction is the primary thing that's killing people and once that stigma of change changes then the system can change as well i don't think one can happen without the other think you're right  so unfortunately we're at the end of our time so i really want to thank you i want to you know commend you and i don't want to take that word lightly or  survived and you can do to survive and you continue to do something about it and you have created that continuum for yourself and you are bringing that to other people so thank you for doing that and thank you for being my guests tha me my name is natasha sherman thank you for joining