fellow which is special designation for people who have been particularly active at the u n in kemal its own well to work on you to conversations my pleasure to be the do as all of this as always we've been together on so many programmes in the past and it's a pleasure welcome to you here now and i wonder if you could because i'm not sure we ever have in the past we've always been talking on a particular issue or something all of which is very interesting but could you share your own back room born and raised that kind of thing and we can wade in and then you forty years in the diplomatic service of what is done yes with postings in india in belgium in france in the soviet union in so due to be up in south korea and then at the one that would selected that way and my job was to teach united nations diplomats the secrets of the united nations wonderful yeah and how the united nations get and that or would have difficulties adapting to the major problems occurring in the wood boy that's an awful lot in terms of your bio and so forth your family setting was one where you were encouraged intellectually and so forth the family saying was it encouraging of you to be so yes grandparents like that very i did too i had a grandparents still in the living from but they have their parents right closer into you you had particular interest from your grandparent you were with your grandparents for some reason not with your family vote either in my study no no no there's no reason except that the atmosphere in my grandfather's house was much more scholarly and studies oriented and so that was it and i don't mean to pry or anything like that but how did you come to be living with your grand father to have that kind of an influence rather than your immediate family when i'm just interested in a circle and my father who was the solicitor general to the government which is a sort of we had no banks and some of the money was given to sundry would come on a month day and he would come home and hand over all the cash to my mother and now he had to borrow money his own money from my mother because he him f had no money no is that interest and i remember throughout my childhood my mother saying no to whatever you want as an interesting pattern is that you recommend that for others coming up the line i think w my diplomatic experience more than thirty years was spent in multilateral diplomacy ok in in belgium for example with the european economic community of the european said what is going on yes indeed is horrible europeans to start fighting with each other and they also come out of a terrible depression that had what wrecked a country here yes but it is to europeans who are creating problems  time yes and then there in the meantime the germans had attacked russia and so the they decided to bring in russia also and then japan attacked china yeah so they brought in china any one of the five can see no and that one no has more weight than one hundred ninety two years and some people say that would make it in operative this structure of it would make it almost an operative in terms of stand by it all along and that's how the united nations was then treated the next year hundred forty five in san francisco yeah where fifty one countries were invited to participate a major development many times over national terms for the idea of the united nations that makes it in valid in terms of a guide by which we can look into the future but there's something inherently inappropriate for their assumptions that makes obviously the united nations has not succeeded in eliminating the scourge of wars completely from history and what does that tell us in terms of looking forward into the eah might makes right in terms of the geo political thinking is all of the idealism is nice for sunday afternoon and share in the shade of a tree or something but in reality terms whoever's got the biggest club or their weapons capability can influence and dominate others and that's been the history of the political organisation of the planet throughout two hundred thousand years of our existence yes what is changing if anything that makes it possible development in the united nations that is once and for this development of decolonization and its sovereignty ought to reside at the nation state level in the thinking of our diplomatic leadership politic that has been the basis by which the nations every dated one to the other throughout almost all of history is still a matter where it's got the biggest gun can conquer it right to conquer is still recognized  conquer by rule off behavior and justice and equity but that had been the principle out of which our historical pattern of mold on the planet had been the right the real politic notion of might world i don't know i don't want you to think that it is really like we have indiana and ohio but they're part of a larger political organization where the united states and france but they're part of a larger organization of those songs and about everybody uniting and want or they can just lead them and so forth but might still makes right in terms of political organization according to the thinking of our leaders or not but i'm told that there was a debate in the united states in the mid the united nation is of the hope of many people is the hope of the world and yet there's reason to be very not so sanguine about the purge the future efficacy of the thinking that's behind it and the idealism at that's the rights and there was also this concept of economic development yes they said that we've got to set up more equitable distribution of money in the wood i think that's probably something it's going to have to emerge but it hasn't yet hasn't to talk it hasn't yet it hasn't than fifty dependents over to the states well the birds of the united nations in all due respect that's the way it seems to me history has always been we had caesar we had leaders we had the people there were the leaders and most of the people were wallowing around in the mud of general poverty which was all that was going to be available to us because we hadn't technologically developed a capability of providing life support agriculture or other life support for the masses of the people there want  impossible so you always had people at the top rooting for society and it still holds but the question is not whether you are just going to recognize the reality or whether you are going to try to attempt to make a better w or is a better world being made around us by cause of our technological extension or cap capability and we're unique to humanity to make the environment other than an evil like sense is the way most of the creatures encountered the environment did terms of poverty a problem heads of the various states and so forth it's always been a few at the top at the court who ran things and you had peasants and peasantry was the way for most of the people to be wallowing around i would just loaded term in the mud of poverty which was their lot and that was just simply accepted by everybody as the way things have to be because there's not nearly enough for all for some to win others have to lose zero sum thinking was inerran the way everything was being set up in the historical development of our planet but i'm disturbed if i have to accept it you who believe in that no i don't believe i believe that was the case so i just define it well i'm not justified in saying that's the way it has been world a few ruling in each case under different political organizations but we're now coming to a time maybe of a qualitative transformation almost on the pattern of speciation in terms of the advancement of word technology and all of our capability as we now have enough for all which we've never had out of history is that too idealistic a premise to be able to be active we have to succeed to change it ok and that is absolutely essential i cannot accept wood in which some countries eating so much that they are throwing food away but that is a reality is it not it's a reality that you are accepting and i'm not i'm not accepting i'm saying that it has been the case from which we have to await can we don't wor leadership coming for the idea that says that that is the case that's emerging well that we do we follow to get at a new way we had to follow jefferson and others who had no ideas of political organizations come out o of interest or leadership by the youth now who are the people of the youth representation as you said or much less bring it in as well to the feminine principle in terms of the organization of society who are leaders out of youth or out of the feminine part of our contingent on the planet that we could return we could repair to in terms of understanding things both nationally and internationally and how does that all relate where the sources of positive thinking realistically positive thinking about the institution of united nations to be something to be built upon in order to answer that question of yours we have to try to establish what are the historical milestones in the is what created balance in decision making between forty six and nine hundred ninety and you are all that you are involved at the heart of that all the time at the united nations and so you have a special understanding of that question in relation to what actually has developed  two countries yes basically right in the middle of it all you know they don't like each other very much because the chinese are sure that the other nation country that is russia is not sure whether it's  combination of russia china does it mean the united states is that which you're saying yes that polarity might develop in a way that could be beneficial to the overall plan and it could be beneficial to the overall majority power and whoever's got the power wins and so avoid in the real politic still ruling in terms of the way the planet is operating yes no trumps going all over talking to people all over the world trying to build alliances  that's interesting in itself is that something that vitiate you know that informs and is important to the united nations as a as an entity or as a movement in the world that should be encouraged by one and all pessimism go when you've got tridents and so forth that apparently on the thinking of many many people in projections of the capability on the destructive side that the weapon systems have become i'm not sure but they have become if they hatred it's been the history of the world our species lethal do you think that's true or is there any reckoning of how powerful are the weapons of destruction in terms of destroying or being able to destroy the entire homo sapiens species are we still short of that or can we do we have the capability now to do like in there in species terms to  than it did yesterday how dangerous is that in terms of species terms in terms of firstly of nuclear weapons you know yes secondly in terms of the fact that you are ignoring major things like climate change which is going that is important now we were discussing the instruments the other milestone is that it is a slowdown in the performance of the united nations because  the united nations actually do yet and i got onto that question have i really don't know do we really do except sit and talk and not succeed in doing things and so sooner or later to slow it down outer environment we have a capability unique i think to evolution to be able to extend our consciousness in the technology to make the environment other than an eva like senses the way most creatures  encounter the environment let's say she has a certain capability or a an adult for something else of the of the biosphere but we have a unique capability of making the environment other than in an eva like sense of the lot economic theory rising it's all based on zero sum thinking you know wonder when somebody else has to lose that's still all accepted in our political leadership around the world but occluding of the members of the d you can overcome the fact that some people are living in squalor or in poverty while some people live very very well it still is we're following the leadership of our few people a few people on practically all of information where the development is going and all the money goes to them at a very small group at the top and that's the way it's always been and that's the way it is now and we don't have any way of forming capital in a way that involves all of humanity in a karl marx and so forth or you have keynes and you have schumpeter and the other economic fears that are informing the geo political reality of the world who is it is getting something that is looking at something barely new in terms of being able to provide for everybody rather than just a few it's not just the economic team that is you know it's also all do is people who believe in religion and faith well that's part of the context in which you would have to be taken into account yes but where is the leadership intellectual leadership that makes it possible for us to be positive about the workings of in fact may be positive in a very very large scale way liberation is available that is never been available to us out of two hundred thousand years of our evolutionary process that has stages where there emerges out of a condition we were thousands of years ago in the medieval as we there's an evolutionary process we evolved what two hundred thousand years ago something like big species evolved we became something other than what had been historically we're now at a situation where we have a challenge to become something other than what we we've been for two hundred thousand years and it can't ever be used voice because we're all caught up reifying the outdated institutions to come out of history where is the leadership with a forward looking pattern in terms of justice as well as capability to provide for everybody to become i have for instance or tr or something like that or into ladies are interested in young men and young men are inching young ladies and all the rest of the same things that they've been throughout all of history no no i don't see you see something emerging out of use where is it absolutely i've spoken to most of correct in that but i'm not sure i can find that much coming out of the youth i mean they they had a period in one nine hundred sixty eight sixty nine something like that when there was woodstock festival happened and it was thought there was something major and it might be mr fuller says there was a major transformation at the level of capability in terms of being able to provide for everybody rather than just having a be zero sum which is informed all of he can nominate their izing and they felt there was  thousand languages in the world there ought to be translating of their store of human knowledge in multimedia terms made available to everybody and they should get over having it all being on and put out an english or in some language to be understood by a whole bunch of people it should be able to include everybody in terms of the store of knowledge of what the reality is in the world we're not doing that but we would need to discuss it in much greater detail than we haven't the moment but this concept of the development of artificial like me is the proper place because you have to have better access to information and knowledge and critical ability then the president of the most powerful country in the ones do you see it and do you see something like that emerging out of the youth now where all and solve all or in the interest of evolution of conscious of the universe with the interest to the united nations here in new york city and what we are you positive that there is an important role for the united nations as a guiding institution for the youth or others that are coming up yes for two or three reasons firstly because i'm convinced that to even come back to the reemergence of a bipolar world you cite the where everybody matters in every sense like an organism got a hundred trillion cells in a human organism every cell matters it makes a system can we get such a system for their population of the world participating in a way where everybody is connected in a way that is and in that order so that we can get a new way of being and universe that's like coming on to being able to be transcendent of two hundred thousand years of human existence but that is the reason why you can afford to be confident in the future because at the moment we're living through such a bad stage in the way that it is a major global problems are going to arise whether they come from global from climate change or whatever and the global problems  nationalistic kind of ways of thinking and narrow ways of thinking the main characteristic of generations up until now so it's amazing time to be alive and participant not delighted that you have come around to that point of view because since you are on the scene you understand that institution better than product than anybody else and you have a great interest in it and we're going to very good i thank you very much for coming in and sharing this moment with us or this program and we're going to be doing another program we're going to follow up on all of this but that's it for now it is your pleasure to have their perceptions of them on kemal major citizen of spaceship earth that mr fuller used to say and a very responsible way in understanding from a for all your work in helping that institution and helping us understand it better will be coming back with another program after this thank you thank you for inviting me and giving me in the audience of this it is my pleasure to invite you to the program your pleasure to that is international realm of the united nations but also in thinking about the broader issues that confront humanity thank you very much for that please day two it would be coming back well it looks like tomorrow from today's program but that's it for this particular program so thank you very very much indeed really nice talking with you we ask you to tune in again tomorrow if you can after following this program and it's a modern kemal you can do very very well to be in touch with this young man he's only thirty years old instead of twenty seven ok will be coming back soon thank you very much so we just got it in under the wire and