okey doke ok out walk a welcome welcome gang conversation a pleasure welcome to the program one of my dearest friends from a long period of years that we've been keeping track of the human condition and so where that student the state of the world now in broad serums you're an academic you have broad understanding of the human condition within a larger context are ya more optimistic less optimistic or what is your overall general sense of the status of the world basically especially left media has become completely obsessed with donald trump yeah well yeah and major figure yeah of course you know i mean this is twenty four seventh's on every channel you don't know what's happening may you're on the media now you're not at a lecture hall and we're not sitting over a table with beer we could have been in a saloon downtown or something but you should keep your eye more this way and talk out the side of your mouth you should talk more about what i did not in my like a the sudan yacking authoritarianism where all over the planet are but the point is we barely know what's what's what's happening and that preoccupation with trump sort of set up and the people behind the media for yes yeah well that's what i call you know you never give up i understand that you know that point one percent not the one percent the point one percent that are making out like bandits yeah as always it's probably been throughout most of civilization more or less yeah but i understand that i understand it less with regard to intellectuals who wind up in this debate with what simply with what they oppose america i mean the united states is one aspect of the big o world and the entire world is sort of vanishing before our eyes and all d this is a very very sad situation you think it is and yeah i do you know well that the dow jones is up and unemployment rate is all favorable and all these kind of markets very much connected with a kind of alienation that has a lot to do with a lack of values and a lack of rational thought he's giving young people a point where they can begin to make ok that's what does that mean progressive or do we mean progress or progressive say we're progressive means socialism or something like that i would near my house but it would also mean you're linking up your principles with your interests well m know you know that sense of confidence in my view it's more a sense of inferiority well you see what i don't see is i don't see what it's actually been done well you to have the good values of the evolution of human society within the order and everything like that but long only to the what we call the left and there can't be assigned there aren't good values that are assigned to the right or tend to mitigate that exploitation if one sets up an equivalence between this constant lying and manipulation and the demand for accountability if one sets up  between simply relying on your own personal experience as against critical reflection your enemy asked me you can't get out of this is going to sides you can't you can't have a day can have a dialogue and the difficulty of such a thing is getting worse with time and time yes refiner's it was pretty bad nine hundred and thirty with the depression and all that you know your friends are bad points over there that yeah and i'm not of the opinion that one of the things progressive or should be doing is simply trying to sway trump voters i don't think they're moving one can either have candidates and programs that mobilize the base as as trump does mobilize our base or he does get get  people african americans out in huge numbers and women out in huge numbers and the like the trump appeal to those two vectors of society women and black and under pri or but i think the most important thing is to mobilize the base whether it's social media or through old fashioned rallies and footwork and there's a lot of that going on i knows that stuff yeah yeah there's no doubt about it yeah and and he has good people around him right smart people yeah one of the things that one of the ways you judge a leader is to judge the people who are around you know i would he would he were to attract a great deal of the socialist camp and that kind of thing or yeah right i think you know he would also reach out to  enormous support but one of the things that you see with just look at the people who are around him around who around him who are bernie you're talking about are drug trump mr trump yeah yeah i mean what we have here is lack of not just lack of experience why any serious knowledge well i'm wrong or they have a knowledge of a sore because they're really really really tuned i very profoundly disagree with the guy on the other side of the barricades yeah but you can say this is a really smart guy yeah he henry kissinger you know he was very early ye it's sort of for trump the way i see it i did a piece that i called thanks to politics is that in writing you mean yeah yeah ok yeah that's made its way around we did mention an art that people like for example you said i would like to i'd wish i could dance that way i don't wish i could talk like you've never seen me move downtown on the right oh i'm sure you're very smooth really very good yeah yeah but i got r out well in our constitution and are in the constitution but also you know just things like i'm liberal rule of law the the idea of reason dialogue the attempt to constrain the arbitrary use of power all of that is part of the enlightenment heritage why have we why have we had to have such beings or to the to the leadership class all through history i mean most all of history has been a matter of people in the castle on the hill with all the troops to support them and the people are wallowing around in the mud of poverty by and large that's the history of the world i think i would millions of peasants and so forth and a few people in still we have a one percent all the benefits of the industrial process now go to a viewer or a few people who have unlimited capability to invest in all kinds of things like hudson yards and all that kind of stuff and  future oh this but it's not it's it's not even just shades of gray is white and black now each era has its revolutionary or radical resistance well and it's a genuine resistance it's not it's not like the guys in trump's white house who call themselves a resistance a real resistance and no matter what age you look at inappropriate or the injustice is still in place in terms of the social political and economic that may be bracketing this for a minute what what block i had in mind was that there was a tradition of democratic struggle ok which is usually ignored it's even for participants i'm not somebody who's a participatory democrat my over you know nor care but it's certainly a rather a radical expression of the democratic impulse and this is existing continuously i'll give you some dates yeah beginning with the always been resisting there's a resistance again and the resistance that moment of resistance has to be taken seriously it's not simply that the that you have the powerful in the restaurant docile sheep  there are a have been that way over the long haul i think they've had to just keep their peace if they want to live well actually it is going to be repression it's going to be propaganda and what what media and intellectuals can do is attend at least attack the propaganda but will crack it in a meaningful way ok so that there's some alternative vision that's put forward who puts forth that in terms of some political position or i think you find it in the political process nobody who anyone in particular ever and out on the right wing if that's what you're talking about internationally is something you've got a real leader of the world  listening in and that kind of thing he's out reaching out to all the north korea and russia and he's reaching out to the thing trying to bring yes sense of it and he's like a master director is a deep state you don't think that oh ok well that's just i think that's the assumption yeah and it's all these stick in the mud it's democrats who are in the way you know one step so he would say you know i think it's one step from the deep state to the protocols yeah it was a fabrication ok and it's what put forward the idea of an international jewish conspiracy it's the communist manifesto of the anti semite if you want to put it that way and the communist manifesto is a manifesto of what the proletariat yeah but that was he had a proper that would be a left wing understanding of the people who are being oppressed having some say in development france win again it beginning they came out of the emergence of they came out at the last quarter of the th century and the easiest thing to do is to find a conspiracy there's polarize in the society right it's pretty common in the political indeed literature i it's a jewish conspiracy you know this is a whole host of rumors that are being spread at the moment that the jews planned the fire at notre dame also there's a lot of people  anything is legit i mean i broke even the protocols which talks about a jewish and non existant jewish conspiracy you don't well you have your opinion i have my opinion that we both go home and that is a situation that contributes to the rule of the powerful because he no longer has any force yeah in other words of all positions are equal the one that is backed by the most powerful person a life that satisfying to them and their family and they feel secure in the way things are going and things are getting better all the time and let me just rock and roll every poll every poll says that that's no longer the case well ok that is a problem when you know but it can be overdone of course it depends it depends what let me let me answer the question that way ok just like you gotta keep your mind on the camera i got the camera and what is right i don't count here i'm just a had with a black girlfriend yeah i want to have to after we wound up going coming outside i had a very different view of gone with the way oh i see here i don't care you got you got set straight is that what you're going to say good for her yeah absolutely yeah ok that's what intellectuals and supposed yeah criticize or criticize and show what mistaken assumptions underpin the wrong given policy you or any given interpreter right i guess that's what politics is about you're a professor of politics you know that you're for stock in trade yeah right and what i see is too little of that we work with is sort of either we worked with the grand and the siri or we were like bean counters that is to say well this trump made this lie on this issue and he made another lie and another issue then we have five thousand lies but we don't know which lies are important and which aren't yeah yeah and then there's the narrative about his lies are worse than our lies yeah and then you get involved in this idiotic come to say shit and then you have a report that doesn't report to that it doesn't present that to the population to earn you he should be impeached that kind of thinking like that is still in the air i guess whether they're going to be brought up and with the mirror thing and everything but the people who support of most of the very satisfied he certainly i let me say something i can say with the same thing no collusion there are child like mr no clue you know you know and i'm happy as a lark believe me as we go rolling going to the golf course well as we  what future presidents should should do or face the consequences the nd part is i think the independent voters actually respect principle as much as they respect anything else contingent of right wing democrats who are no different than republicans now there's i guess and that's of course that's close to a rd of the party resigning are you and that exists today too in the democratic party don't think those guys are going to determine the future of the election i think that what's going to determine the future of the election at the end of the day is how go you can mobilize your base how well astaire was really good if you have a situation you have a business and you bring in you constantly bringing in people who you say the best people and then three months later you fire them because you think they screwed up either you're picking the wrong people have been your you know or you either you're picking the wrong people or your standards  high that nobody can meet them now this is this is a situation i think with bringing in the people and so on this is like a typical dictator well it does there  dictator has doesn't have a bureaucracy in the normal sense what he has is a coterie yeah corner it differently and the person who has power is the person who's closest to him at that moment fascism neo and i think we're pretty close actually and i think there ways you can judge i said before we need a criteria right now here's one way you can judge ok powerful and literally emasculating the other three the congress the senate and the and the court well maybe he's doing that because he's so it's not the manipulation i'm talking about there's skills yeah this is a good technique snuff if you use that as your criterion without having a goal of what the technique is supposed to serve particularly impressed me and this this is a case in point because other people who suffer for these decisions basically the the entire tradition of democracy suffers well you know and then on top of it yeah what you never had before was a semi official propaganda machine like fox news well that's yeah the other way around of the triumph of trump from the time of the election why is there something lacking in the in staying power of the message or the direction encouraged by what we call the left historically the they run out of things that are relevant to a growing economy and health care of everybody i don't think they want to just i don't take away the power to create look we've got a great great of best a product problem a slow everything's great damage in the economy is going gangbusters and everything and you know they can see all these things that are being done in favor of what mr trump of organizations and groups ranging from arms reduction to cutting arms sales to curbing drug cartels to fostering democracy to anyway you've got to be you've got to be willing to say that some of more beneficial for the majority of americans and others and we've had an erosion of the welfare state we've had an erosion of environmental standards have thing where you can make more general wealth that can be distributed is not going to do you any good if you can create conditions where the wealth is growing in order to distribute to everybody if that's your view you have got together better for the people who are doing developing the wealth in order for there to be something distributed harold it doesn't mean if you're a labor theory of value is coming under attack it doesn't literally it doesn't mean that if the one percent is making enormous profit which they always have through all of human history and yet we're not so different from human history is always the king and the guy and the president starving in the field and let him starve to death is always a difference between the oppressed make by the strategies they call by the strategies they employ if you're in if you're introducing for every day people to get by i mean it's just people yeah yeah yeah well there's problems that's for sure yeah and you know that's the situation we have now it doesn't help to say well they've always been rich and there's always been poor yeah people have nightmare of injustice from which were attempting to awaken and we made it a time ago awakening from a historical pattern where there were always some bute  reliever ship and hit people on the head if they didn't listen get them well in order to get taken the orders mundus modeller do not and the whole economy of the world and history of it is build up within that context is there something to make something other than that possible now becoming available to the homo sapiens species within an ecological a kind of events in universe something on that order now is it no you think it's just the same old thing i think that the idea that you can abolish power  power maybe how about making everybody powerful is there a possibility of being able to liberate everybody to where ever i was our however is not ours not a quantum power as the relationship  or you can have a situation where the top one percent makes less makes more and the ninety nine percent makes less in and of itself simply technology what it has to do with political power working class yeah if the extent to which working people in my view anyway yeah stand to which working people me this is a time of qualitative transformation would seem to me in the overall or over the overall reality of the situation there and i mentioned to you as we came into this program before i gave it to you there's now a group coming from some of our scientific community it called the geologists they're very hairy men crown it as it were in terms of understanding principle without the larder the political thinking and they are proposing now that we've been in the holocene for about twelve thousand years that's the period geologically they measure the place to seen before that is about thirteen million years that the whole thing where the old man and he st appeared where wandering around eating carrion or whatnot and so that whole period and they're saying the  which is the area that goes back twelve thousand years or something like that is coming to an end and they're proposing that the human capability to have ascension over the insured through sions of society is such that we have to have a new term and they're try to figure out how we can do it's a situation that's been changed already by using the no streams that were effective in the highest in the holiday in the period passing you know i think we may be coming to a time of great opportunity for qualitative not just quantitative movements toward justice and so forth or what do you i think if if if trump does one thing is he showed that there is a qualitative change in the republican party and what it means to be new possibilities we have possibilities that have not been able to be there until just yesterday in terms of the historical pattern we couldn't provide a habit like environment where you've got the capability of making every single human being within an ecological kind they have rather than have not that has to be measured against the people who are stash of all the wealth in the upper class that we've got a chance of having everybody liberated but that is going to be that is going to be a determination of political power yeah i guess you're right now at least in my view and i mean you maybe it may be true that we're in the know it's a new era yeah it's like you here in a womb and you're doing something and then you all the sudden you're in another environment that's what they're proposing is the case that we have to get used to and that one of the things that we may have transcended the ironclad laws of scarcity for wonder when somebody else has to lose that would come forms old thing and now we're going to make it so we can make everybody on their own terms they have well and that would that would that would be a thing of general accord and i want all the people within the environmental context and everything yeah that leaving the warm of history yeah and i guess my question is if it's a it's a matter of political power is who's the we well it's oh that's it that's it yeah yeah you know can he you know get a new age without a new age and where you're going to have a problem to destroy it with all due respect from the left if i can it's very majuli informed by the labor theory of value that it's the labor workers that make the wealth and that that's stolen by the people that wealth and make it for themselves but the late term of what's going on in terms of extended consciousness is such that it's it's coming to where the labor theory of value is being undercut because the technology is doing it's going to bring on a point where the workers who have to go and president mr ford's thing turn and not all day long and be a wage slave which they all are now to they have to do what the  but what's the subtitle of this copy tell i'm not sure if you want to know because you're in the political game you're in the it's a critique of political economy yeah ok a very good idea what yeah right ok yeah that's that's the well i think you're going to have to if the technology is taken over they better get it we're going to a capitalist system very have a way of forming capital in a way where ownership as a means by getting income comes to the masses of the people rather than just to the few and we don't have that they're only depend upon the idea you got it of job for everybody but they're not going to be needed as wage slave i'm totally with you on that ok well maybe we've got one where i don't know for sure but i'll tell you if you want to understand modern politics in this situation you could do you can't do better than stephen eric broner one of the members of our intellectual class in this area outside of new york city stephen as always opposed good to talk all you place always a pleasure to talk with stephen eric broner i recommend him to one and all thank you for viewing we should be coming back again if we're not you know you know you know you could get your to get in trouble we're talking this kind of way and everything like that when i was