hi i'm callil cumberbatch associate vice president of policy at the david rothenberg center for public policy welcome to both sides of the bars a discussion german show that exam is a criminal justice system from various perspectives including from those most impacted by the criminal justice system we discussed critical questions about how the current system works is intersections with social justice and highlight the efforts that are being made to improve the lives of everyone that is affected by we ask you the viewer to spread the word about both sides of the bars and share your comments with us on twitter at the fortune society my guest today is marlin peterson writer host of the the carson rated podcast and principal of the presidential  as a conversation unfolds please let us know your thoughts by tweeting at us at ca cumberbatch and at underscore marlon peterson today's show is entitled taking away from taking a knee a little more it became one of the most polarizing figures in the u s sports when he took a knee during the national anthem it was a unique and jarring form of protest against police brutality towards african americans cap'n it began his protest by sitting on the bench during the national anthem prior to a preseason game on aug fourteenth two thousand and sixteen when he was playing for the for the san francisco forty nine years he was not in uniform at the time the protests began garnering coverage chan captured him sitting this time in uniform in a photograph prior to the team's third preseason game on august twenty sixth two thousand and sixteen after receiving a published open letter in speaking with green beret  l player nate boyer he was convinced to take a knee rather than sit during the national anthem from then he has consistently taking a knee during the anthem before each king this gesture is an acknowledgment of the vulnerability of guest and prior to us starting we talked about today being the three year anniversary of my release from immigration attention and because of your work in the work of many others i want to publicly say thank you and how apropos is if  to be having this conversation today you're welcome and i'm happy that i get to be able to thank you so much what were your initial reactions when you heard about colin kaepernick and his protest i was like is about tom you know i mean i think on to for the public to see him just doing his own private proprietors but it mattered to him and i think i met him or anything he wasn't doing it just for show and so do you think that him taking a knee was something that was long overdue or do you think that it was done at a time where the nation was still reeling from the outcome of freddie grace case as well as other cases across the country well said i think it was a decided in this country any time to make a stand against police files against black and brown bodies is always the right time because it's always happening and it's been happening for decades it has been happening before cattle company was on this planet before you are now on this planet so i think in that time there's sun blair was still very much in everybody's memory so you know it was the right time but it's always the right time to do sort of things i think happen to his gesture was a signal  just because we're here to entertain you we don't have a real concern for was happen in our communities in cabinet as is one of many sports figures who utilize his platform and some people have compared him to the likes of muhamm ali and so for you who if you could hold his example up to someone who has used their platform in the past particularly in the sports arena who would you relate him to and why well i think  that to on a public stage to push america to be to be honest with itself and i think so nothing about captaining as a living about as an alley wasn't love that that you know he's considered unpatriotic he was receiving death threats he quarterbacks out there so what do you think is next for cap and i'm just curious to hear your thoughts about his blackballing being one of the major barriers that stops him from continuing to utilize a platform that he had access to last year so what do you think is next  national anthem to protests police violence against african americans they are making a gesture of pain and distress putting american a more honest context quote from kaplan it directly there is police brutality people of color have been targeted by police so that's a large part of it and their government officials they are put in a place by the government so that some so that's something that this country has to change there's things we can do to hold them more accountable make those standards higher you have people that practice law in a lawyers and go to school for eight years but you can become a cop in six months and don't have to have the same amount of training as a cosmetologists that's insane someone that's holding a current curling iron has more education and more training than people that have a gun and are going out there on the street to protect us so what are your reactions to collin cavanagh's comments when he took a shot a cosmetologist but  ache is like doing nothing but to me with the with the nene and you know you know he was advised to do that to take that particular to take that particular stance i mean he's force in america he's trying to force america to be honest and take a look at honest but even now and this is this is the part of it i think as we're living in this moment of history sort of very sad is that the conversation is about the anthem and it's about the flag and it's been taken and it's been sort of like it's been hijacked away reckoning with that but with it so and so what are your thoughts around cappa next point that he was making that in certain parts of this country it is way easier to become a law enforcement official and given a firearm with all the responsibility that comes with that and you have other professions and he mentioned two one is a lawyer and two is a cosmetologist but that these folks have moral higher standards in terms of the way that they're trained and education that they receive regarding their profession so what corner at a campaign rally on september twenty second for republican senator luther strange trump angered many in the n f l by calling that calling for team owners to fire any calling quote s o b who quote unquote disrespect our flag furthermore in tweets trump said great solidarity great solidarity for the national anthem and for our country standing with locked arms is good kneeling is not acceptable bad ratings in another tweet he said if a player wants the privilege of making millions of dollars in the n f l or other leagues he or she should not be allowed to disrespect the flag so not only has captain it taken a stance or around police brutality been vocal and that you also seen other celebrities do the same thing but now we have the president who is using that protests to shift the attention towards the national anthem specifically and the flag more peripherally so i would love to hear your thoughts in your analysis on why it is important and for us to stay focused on what the true original message was for that protest well that's a purpose of trying statement the purpose of charm statements are to  done but people are harassed by police on a daily basis largely because of what they look like and any one of those moments can lead to another tragic moment as the result of the hash tag any one of those moments but beyond that there's a level of trauma many of them don't care and other just are unable to see that the impact of police violence on can use of color in so trumps tweeds you know they have been folks who support him who are serapis who have said things like well the president is utilizing his sermon his first amendment right the right to free speech and he take any local izing that are moving away from mainstream media using twitter specifically but why is it in your analysis and in your interpretation that that same critique is not given to folks like happening in other people who have protested about stay sanctioned violence because america has american way i think the ability to ignore racism and white supremacy is like an american product and so what would what would trump does vote for this person i mean that's literally house leader it lasted so long because people are able to ignore their own personal values but understood that like to be able to allow themselves with the values of somebody  martin luther king like when is the right time to do it was the right time to protest some we need to stop killing people we need to wait until the anthem is done and say well now's the time to talk about that i think is absurd but also speaks once again like this is us is the country that we live in that can sort of out for what she believes him to be which many people believe him to be which is a white supremacist in the fact that he supported white supremacy what do you think of people like her who are not necessarily athletes but also as you said utilizing their tell us and the listeners in the viewers more about your work that you're doing specifically to address police accountability gun violence and so on and so forth you know i think for that question i think you know for those of us who you know for and do you want to see what i did what i found i was interrupted is about was interrupted is based off of a model out of chicago culture of violence where is that you had people who are considered credible messages people who are of the community people who who have understand how to commute works who might have been in the streets themselves the time that's mean and now are interacting in a commune with people who are the highest risk to an gauging gun violence to prevent them from shooting their guns right i was trained was able to do  that just a couple months after i came home and it progressed on to now and on a policy level around gun gun control etc but the start focus now only not only on like gun violence prevent gun violence but understand that there's a connection between the type of violence that we as people of color perform on each other and the type of violence that's been perpetrated upon us from law enforcement i believe that they model a certain type of violence and a certain type of harm that we now sort of internalize and push towards each other so the work i've been doing sort of like looking at ways to reduce gun violence and police whilst the same time i don't believe in good faith that we can only talk about stopping each other from shooting and that's not a justified that police are like couldn't people in a store and from a mine of hyper many parts of our stories and in many parts of our journeys and they are all dark but into adulthood as is life and i believe that we are not only should be people who are on shows and speaking to an interview but we should create th friday so you can download podcasts on and how can folks listen learn more about the cars or to park as about you know work where can they go to learn more so you go to my website well the pizza dot com you can find all the episodes in the file more about my work as well as my writing which i took a lot of pride in us in solidarity as we support the n f l players jamil hill and other celebrities who are dedicated to the original cause of ending police brutality in creating accountability and thank you the viewers for joining us on manhattan neighborhood network and in t v land as well if you're interested in finding out more about the fortune society please check us out on the web at fortune society dot org or on facebook by typing in the fortune society this is  we critically look at both sides of the bars