talking about wonderful things we have our wonderful guest mr joe b s it was here in the us in the studio today thank you or yeah and every time joe comes yes you know it's like he's the conscience of the show have you noticed th let me ask you first a question you can always say yes or no is there such a thing is forever on that what yeah if you say yes then then therefore i think you're going to have to come see it my way ok well in that case i what you know i'm and i really mechanics yeah one of them what i'm ok it's kind of like garbage garbage in garbage out right if you're only going to put bad in only bad can come out and make sense if you're if you're going to believe that it's worth trying hard and sacrificing for you will get what comes to you in the end so it's really it's really pretty simple you know it's take a marley right you know at the end you know he's got all those chains because of all the evil and so forth he did in his life you know that's a good metaphor as far as i'm concerned so you you have been trying to back me into a corner by getting me to agree that forever exists right all right ok so what's what so therefore if if forever exists then possibly you could be part of that forever ok ok and if you are part of that forever that means beyond this physical reality there's someplace that you're going to go or your spirit or something's going to go so don't you want to believe that if you put what you were supposed to put into this piece of it that that peace will be good so you've assumed something which is that also besides believing in forever that i would also believe in a soul or a mind that can exist independent of the physical body in which i inhabit and i don't believe in that so i didn't work then and so that doesn't that doesn't get me there was it wasn't good enough i wasn't strong enough in my argument now that said if say we we spin this around and kind of think of it from the point of view of karma which is kind of the way i interpreted what you and tom are talking about earlier that for every good thing you're doing there can be a positive outcome and for every bad thing so i would see that as take a sheet and you drop a ball on it and it's going to have a ripple out of your water you know think of it in the ripples go out but you're also moving forward through time so you at some point you're going to catch up to those ripples i did a really bad thing to you and maybe i don't see how bad it was but in a year i'm going to one talk to you and you're not going to talk to me because you're still angry and so at that point that is it coming back to me that is the equal and opposite that is my karma in the  so i you know maybe i'll find out you know i'm open to that idea i'm agnostic about it i guess but it doesn't doesn't resonate for me it doesn't make much sense to me and so i don't look for a thing external this life for my meaning you know the reason i'm going to be good today is not because i'm hoping to get some of you know get a goodie bag after i die wait wait you told me you wanted that good exactly i wanted to date not after i die so tom and together yeah yeah very nice thank you you're welcome so there's i guess that's where the dividing line is right if there is no reason or purpose for soul for you then and there is no purpose for a god to me so therefore it's over no no no no see i think it's i cannot conceive in a way that makes sense to me of soul that is independent of body but that is a different question from the question of god that the universe is bigger than i can understand you know one way i think of this is so ok i'm you know here's here we go into why i have a hard time with soul so i am clearly a scientific materialist as it is a psychologist i understand and you know something about how the brain works i also understand something about dynamic systems theory and one of the ideas is that when systems get complex things that you didn't expect  happen and so you can do this actually with very limited computer code you can just write comp you know it doesn't have to be complex in the sense of its long it just has to be able to learn and the minute it's done used it starts learning things you never expected  and with tiny little bit of code you know forty lines of code you can get really surprising results imagine what you could do with you know a trillion neurons that are interconnected and so that's where i think consciousness comes from  that and i know that you're going to you know will say computers can't think but ultimately you can't extrapolate that that is there for learning or understanding so right so i'm going to try any system and say because of its physical nature it has the capacity to really understand or learn which is what differentiates us from all these other senshi totally sentient things ok where i use this is that it's interesting that once a system is complex you can get surprising results that rude not have been predicted and so i think when you get the human brain which is the most complex organism in the universe that we understand something about really you get consciousness and where does it come from and how does it work we don't really understand that yet but i think that it is a function of the brain i don't think it's a function of a soul now what is bigger than my brain the planet or planets more complex than you know it's got lots of different organisms does that mean the planet actually never aware of it the earth is not aware it might be that's the thing you know that's what he was saying that's exactly the point i'm making it's possible it is where it at a level we don't recognise because it's a different level of awareness and the universe is even more complex than that and maybe it has a type of awareness and if it does i would call that god there you go it's everything it is the awareness of everything ok and so that so i can actually with i can actually get within you know i don't need soul to get to conception of god so i don't see those as necessarily linked well that's a cast naming thing because i've never had understood this whole concept of a consciousness of the earth explained so while there was very very thoughtful i would come down on the other side as to where consciousness comes from i'm not convinced that it comes from a movement of electrons and neurons and blood cells inside your brain i think i don't know i just don't just i just don't necessarily buy that because consciousness leaves in a place when you still have all those things so i'm not necessarily i mean it's possible but the to me the key has always been time the whole idea when you talk about does forever exist well i think our understanding of what forever is is grossly wrong because the idea of what time exists i think we are totally limited by physicality of our flesh and blood where everything has a beginning everything has an end and it really don't have the brainpower to contemplate anything beyond that so if we're trying to use our brains to contemplate what is forever it just don't make no sense so we just think it's well just like it is except going on more which i don't think is accurate so that's sort of what i what i drew out of it to me the key is always time you know time always screws with me and what is time and i don't really i don't really know what time is i got to that and i always tell you look at the clock you know but that joke that i always tell you that i think right now i could with google the fingers on my six year old self i wonder if that's true there's a part of me that honestly believes that that's possible that i should be able to wiggle the fingers on my six year old self right now because we're all one thing and it was just like this part of this is part of me and this is part of me this moment is part of me and that moment is part of me i should be able to  i guess i don't know that i can comprehend the manipulating you in this moment of another moment you know but i definitely get times where i sense that the time part is the illusion there are certain places where i get this maybe feeling that i'm already dead and i have already not been born and you know that that this concept that there is this linear thing called time well in a sense once i die i still exist because not only physically my atoms will get reabsorbed into other things and be part of those but also you know my daughter is going to always remember me there i have written things that will exist so there's going to be me in the future you know that already exists that future is already there and in a sense you're all those things all at once that still lends credence to a higher power and something something greater thought you i don't think but to me that it just means to me that you can't really understand what that i or power is you know can't you can't that's the point yeah that's what i'm that's what i'm thinking so what's the point of fighting about what it is and whether it falls into this classification or that classification when we're all admitting we don't even know what it was yeah this is been  my pet peeve around religious wars if by definition god is infinite right that's definition absolute and if again by definition man is finite yes then there is no possible way we can understand god right so and it is the best we can do is understand one little tiny bit of it and so so all religions are necessarily wrong they've made up got some things right but they've also got to have some things wrong because we can't comprehend the whole and so every different religion they might have got some piece of it it's like you know who it is idea of the elephant in the blind men you know they all have some aspect that's true but they can't see the rest and all religions must be we're fighting our tendency to want order and control yes see in order to have pure religion and pure whatever you want to call it faith you've got to fight that tendency you know you've got to fight that want desire to grow and get power you know and unless you can defeat that you see there there is no way to be purely one or whatever you want to call it in your faith where this is where i've always admired tom because tom very clearly wants to be surprised by life and doesn't want to think he knows where it's going because he recognizes that you know most people spend so much time trying to control what they think they cannot comprehend what's going to happen right and then they're not really living whereas tom does exactly the opposite he wants very much to look at all the things that scare him look at all the things that he doesn't understand and then dive right in it's fast as he can to try to go whoa what's this weird thing i've read my you that i admire you for that you're the thing about their right i'm talking to him at the table and i'm saying you know i really like it when there's something that i think is is real some bit of truth and then i were in that that's not true you know something  lot of money you know you're not so happy that you're right and that goes back to the definition of sacrifice for what you will deserve right if you've really made a sacrifice beyond oh well i sat and i thought for fifty years that wasn't a sacrifice right you know so you can't be a philosopher and expect to be looked up as it was a saint or whatever you want to call a great person you know i mean what's the what is a saint to be looked up to in the first place and why is that a valuable thing selflessness  selfless they wouldn't even know who you were and you wouldn't care about being a saint yeah i didn't say that that person was trying to be  well joe this is been fantastic and i really actually like these shows even though it's not quite what you expect from a comedy music show but because of the it's real yum you come on the show and all of a sudden it gets real what's up with that you know i think comedy and music are taken too seriously and we need to change the subject so let's let's do that every once in a while so we're going to take a lighthearted subjects like this and add a little le