as the israel palestine conflict and its intractable and agonizing debate goes on and on to peace in the region seems further away than ever but equally in american political progress of the left the circles the discourse on palestine is said to be shifting one can look at michelle alexander recently york times op ed piece time to break the silence on palestine or angela davis speaking out on palestinian rights t palestine a single binational state that would be neither jewish nor a zionist it seems fairly obvious that there's a growing questioning by prefer got progressives of israeli policies aspects of the zionist ideology that underpin it and even a question of its basic right to exist as a state now all of this has to be confusing to the average observer trying to understand the nuances of the struggle and debate many progressive critics of the jewish state insist that being anti zionists isn't the same as being anti semitic yet the drawing the line can be difficult as it was during the women's march this year which is roiled by accusations of anti semitism as leaders among other statements referred to evolve anti semite louis farrakhan as the greatest of all time in another case minnesota represented the lawn omar apologize for her anti semitic tropes saying it's all about the benjamins baby suggesting that israel's allies in american politics were motivated by money rather than policies and more ality while many of israel's progressive critics do understand that the israel palestine and palestinian conflict is far more complicated than the black and white picture they sometimes draw the radical left militant hostility toward the jewish state and aspects of its design this vision has been true for decades certainly some of the criticism of israel is enticing medic but isn't tire leap possible to oppose jewish ethno nationalism without being a bigot particularly given the way the current israeli government has aligned itself with far right european movements in hungary for example that anti semitic roots hostile to jews themselves israel's growing time as would repressive regimes like saudi arabia an alliance with america cries out for scrutiny concerning the unique role that america has played and still does play of course as israel's protector the vast majority of american jewry should have little difficulty a gree that their jewish ethics would demand that scrutiny what many in the american jewish and non jewish community are not aware of is the long history of a movement of strictly orthodox jews who have been consistent and strong supporters in solidarity with the palestinian struggle and their rights and freedom and opponents of what they see as israeli colonialism from united states boundaries both in her work and in her life she grew up in a modern orthodox jewish zionist community left and for a non religious life in new york and has become an ardent activist for palestinian freedom we're deeply honored and thrilled to have the creator and director of the forthcoming film the rabbi's intifada on the radical imagination to help us clarify a rich and complicated narrative so welcome heather sidelines of the parade and protesting the parade in which we were marching the the other side of the fifth avenue where the the supporters of israel was standing right so the other side was  but anyway i go on with your source and you were at the parade there and and that was my introduction to seeing jews much less religious jews standing in opposition to israel and in support of the palestinian struggle that was my on the first confused i'm probably a little bit fearful and all sorts of emotions just sure yeah shock surprise so that was my introduction to the group of rabbis who i set up filming and making a documentary about more than puppy or than twenty years later so now but so but now you still have this movement away from modern orthodoxy and moving to new york is a is what young woman in teens twenty's college yeah i went to college then moved around for a little bit and have spent most of my adult life living in new york city i also now and as you see the last twenty years and your movement toward making this incredible movie i think that the film really started when i started learning more about the palestinian struggle and about learning more about israel from a different perspective than the one that i was raised with i spent time living in jerusalem as i mention travelling in the west bank and gaza and learning meeting a lot of palestinians hearing a different perspective when was this what your time i would say i started learning about the situation probably in around two thousand two thousand so you again just told us you  and yeah i was my first exposure to hearing palestinians talk about their oppression and violence that they face every day at the hands of israelis i hadn't heard that before i hadn't been exposed to that perspective and just seeing with my own eyes the way that israel was brutalizing post sitting in his you see things you saw i saw tanks with their gunships pointed at mothers carrying their babies  over past a checkpoint just trying to get home i saw child who was about maybe thirteen years old who was walking with crutches and very depressed because he had he was living in hebron and he had been shot in the leg by israeli settlers and so these are just i saw a water crisis that was ongoing in which palestinians had to be very you know had very little act careful because they had very little access to water because israeli water authority would turn in on and off their water with you know without really giving much thought learning from israel's israelis who were critical of what their own country was doing to palestinians with the violence with the separation walls with roads that were difficult unpleasant for palestinians and you know very moved i mean this was a heartfelt this is wrong this is not how you were trained in like a jew should be doing things that he was a right not part of the jewish values this is that i was raised with sure but you certainly weren't oblivious to the struggles in the past wars and in the hate and contempt that has developed on both sides i mean did you still do you still believe or did you believe that that israel had a right to exist that that or when we moving toward what in your terms of your own viewpoint and zionism i started to meet people who were critical of not just israeli violence but the very but started learning more about the israel's founding and that was the critical piece really tell us a little more for our audience we are and what that end in order for that founding to take place as israel massacred and expelled thousands of palestinians from their homeland where they had been living for hundreds of years so that's the part of the that's the part of the history that i think was missing from my american jewish education but there was also an attack on the second that was declared a state so did you bring that into your understanding i mean this was there was hard feelings on both sides right there are  there are two sides to to it i guess what i'm saying is that what palestinians are saying is that they had been living there  peacefully and actually also what the rabbis in my film are saying is that that the palestinians had been living in palestine peacefully alongside of their jewish neighbors for many years  there was a small orthodox jewish community living in jerusalem who had been living in coexistence with muslim and christian palestinians and the jews and then you know this the history better than i do of this so there's the structure of the temple and the end of that state and then the diaspora and that and the hungering for some sort of en that would protect or you know next year in jerusalem for example some although there was a couple thousand years of wandering and so on it wasn't that many jews would want to go back to the holy land they just weren't able to or are how would you put it i mean there was a national entity in the sides there was a state of israel there was no state of israel until well not state but there was a a land for a people without i think it's a land for people without for people without only yes thank you and of course there were many people already living on that land they were both jewish jewish palestinians christian palestinians and muslim palestinians and they were all living there peacefully until the zionists started to arrive and created a movement a political movement to create a jewish national homeland in palestine ok so this was the tension that orthodox jews in jerusalem were experiencing in the one nine hundred twenty s as immigrants immigrants from europe started coming and trying to create a political a political agenda they had a political agenda to create a national homeland and in palestine rabbis that you or the picayune your film rejected the idea of the notion that zionism should exist that if there was going to be a jewish state it should be brought about through god's messiah right well for orthodox jews and for most jews for thousands of years like the idea of a national jewish a jewish nation state was really an anathema to judaism and for thousands of years jews rejected the idea of creating some sort of jewish national homeland and this idea of zionism was relatively new and anathema to most community that was founded in jerusalem in the one nine hundred thirty s and they are the meaning of the name it is an aramaic term and it means the guardians of the city and so the city that they were guarding at the time was the city of jerusalem and what they were guarding against was the onslaught of zionism of this political endeavor to create a jewish state in their midst they had been living in the city of jerusalem for hundreds of years for generations and they felt that they were being attacked by jews who were coming from europe and trying to create a nation state where they were living in a jewish nation state jews would you say the majority of jews worldwide secular and i think that's a debatable point and a ok but it's a shifting it's a shifting thing that's happening right now i mean i think that in the in the united states right now we see a large trend towards american jews criticizing zionism was used on young people yes we've had jewish voice for peace on a couple of times to him the money as well get here's actually a short clip i and other of the organizations representing so many young people are addressing you know the state in the different way that we've we've heard in  and and so how does your film then we want to play the trailer just lots of humans how does your film enter into this debate because this is something really powerful here the connection the they're making with the palestinians as a people going beyond what still many other jews are doing do you find that i mean they're really putting themselves on the line here in the torah carter wrote yeah my rabbi said they're crazy don't pay any attention to them and for a long time i didn't might say well look there with palestinians and showing this great love is a more pragmatic pragmatic relationship they just can't stand design is and so anybody is going to be opposing them  staying standing against zionism and also standing with palestinians and i would say their their motives there  times come under under question or and after having spent a lot of time with them i've learned that they genuinely support the palestinian struggle for ethically rooted reasons that they are that they cite like the most they cite the torah as you know and some very basic passages like love your brother like you like you and as why after the destruction of the second time cause they were they were sitting sitting right in their sin and was was just i guess believe that if if somebody is actually hurting them or being violent towards them they have the right to fight back to defend themselves ok but what they're saying is that there are passages in the torah which s within amongst jews and probably amongst orthodox jews as to what that might look like when the messiah comes but christians for that matter and in turn certainly but the idea is that when the messiah that is the jews with that palestinians would be removed from the land or that there would be any violence in fact there would not it would not it would be a time of peace on earth and therefore there would be  rabbis there are looking very idealistic utopian looking for a world without boundaries without nationality without religion without exactly right now psionic times would look like yes according to you but it's a fascinating question because these are universal concerns and people all around the world so this is not just some little faction within israel this and that people all over the world are trying to transform the world oftentimes with the idea that this is the way it should be done and we need to purify the world and we need to cleanse it and we need to follow the laws and rules of of gods that they define as worthy and so on and we have clash because  i think that the rabbis are saying we have historically had good relationships with muslims in the middle east as jews we've lived in the middle east for centuries and have had good relationships with our arab neighbors whether they're christian or muslim  that relationship was not destroyed by religion or religious differences that relationship that of coexistence in the middle east in palestine and elsewhere in the middle east is not destroyed by the difference of views about who is god or right between muslim and and jew and christian the reason for the destruction of the or the havoc that's been wreaked on relationships between jews and muslims and arabs and jews is because of a political nationalism and not as what they're struggling against is this jewish attempt at a time by jews to create a jewish nation state and that nationalism of course is not specific unique only to jews it's there's nationalism is everywhere in the world but this nationalism this jewish nationalism to create a jewish nation state in palestine was the was the was a cause of a break a rift and in an ongoing relationship that had been colonial client if you will of america now you're opening up another pandora's box warning now that i've opened that up so the a dedication america is israel's protector do the rabbi is what do they feel about that or are they opposing israel american foreign policy a pact or how does that fit into their struggle in the united states who are taking a stand against israel and its policies so which is not in of itself and i submit it could be made to try to make that point to be critical of of israel as such as a state is not in the sense always semitic i mean that is the main point that the rabbis are making is that there is a difference between being anti semitic and being anti israel and the two very very different things one isn't one is being against a nationalism another is against being as i'm sorry and another the anti semitism is against b p is about being against jews and do they understand that that exists they they certainly don't deny the moshe hirsch who was working in cell in solidarity with yasser arafat and making efforts to try to bridge the gap between palestinians and israelis or palestinians and jews  was then attacked by israeli extremists who attacked him with acid and attempted to murder him and he was then blinded by that violent act accomplice accomplice to the violence that was being perpetrated is so violence begets violence here right and how do we stop that and also why great they work with the first consul right in his there is a back and forth violence but we have to look at we have to examine and explore the origins of the violence and i don't you could demagogue both sides if you're going to be really b there's two players there's two players in the middle east but they're not equal players there's one state one is a state with an army who is occupying militarily land that is not according to international law their land their military forces going into raiding children raiding homes in the middle of the night and children are being arrested young children being arrested in israeli organized in a group of people who are being oppressed resist the violence right now there is there is a nonviolent movement called white cut divestment and sanctions and that movement is to holding a lot of power right now and actually creating a lot of sides i mean that's but but what i mean the question is like what what does one do when when the situation is violent it's not should they turn their head i don't think we're saying that i think when your inner knowing the situation there are you saying no when and has there is a military force that is but it's not that's the whole idea of civil disobedience and nonviolent protests and organizing and getting the moral a very male dominated world right so they they they approach you approach them and you're welcomed into a discussion with them and tell us a little about your plans for this film i know it's go  so you will actually have a chance to talk with the salute rabbis and with some of their allies in the palestinian scholars and activists will be in conversation with them and people can learn more about natori carter about the film will be screening clips from the filmmaking very hard work ahead and i guess i've learned i've learned a lot actually about natori carter about about their theology about their history about the history of palestine about the strength and resilience of the palestinian people and about the courage that it takes to resist violence and yeah we've brought out of that experience yeah i mean i think the learning about this movement has been this religious movement for social justice has been very eyeopening and inspiring in many ways because we often hear about social justice movements being led by secular folks and i think that it's also important to be aware that that religious people also can support social justice that and do support social justice movements and he was a woman do you feel there that that stance that they're taking is ethically rooted morally morally rooted and that it's based in their there and understanding of the torah and jewish history and and what it means to be jewish i think viewpoint of the rabbis toward women and gays and transgender and so one homosexuality and rights of women then we go on the right to be divorced and so on where does that you know the rabbis are socially conservative group of people with conservative values on on some issues including sexuality and gender you agree with both of you was a as a woman too i agree with well do you feel comfortable with those sorts of that they're understanding you know there are ways in which i agree with some of you know as i relate to most humans i think that there are things that they believe that i agree with and there are things that they believe that i disagree with and i imagine that they probably you know i feel that way about most people that i have that i get to know so they're complicated it is complicated but thank you  adolf hitler who believe that a never ending race war that would purify the earth and cleanse the world of inferior evil and foreign peoples as he and that ideology to fight them over sixty million people died as a result of the mentality during world war two psychiatrist james gilligan has pointed out that the main the physicians we have a vented to prevent or at least minimize human violence have been more rally in religion but the most deadly violence has always been committed in the name of the morality and religion if we learned anything from human history it's that to finally end the never ending cycle of violence we need to develop forms of religious experience of expression that are mature and psychologically healthy we need a response of radical love healing redemption and equal justice for all a fusion coalition politics of caring and nurturing representing all people in any place throughout the globalized world it's a life affirming a got the love a transpersonal universal concern with care and respect for all humans not p violent hypocritical are applying double standards in reality it's the only alternative we have to the destructive and self destructive cycle of the fundamentalist rich abusive fear based world view of violence that continues to this but to be deviled the human condition and threatens the extension of all of us as a species progress is the need and must do better to understand this and we all do