of august for there was a great experience of the room from front and welcome welcome very much to conversations where it's a great otter they're welcome to the program he'll price you price probably needs no introduction he was a long time we're going to go into some detail of what the ready president and the chief executive officer of the national urban league leading civil rights organization is a lawyer he's got distinguished career that continues and you price really is a great pleasure walking you once again the conversation thank you you were you guest in the past i was just discussing we had watched you had a program with mr hafner richard have to write you very well on more recently but i wonder maybe we could want to pick up some of your takes on the society nationally and in the world sense but maybe you could anchor a little bit if you could on your old personal back when you were you were born were you born and raised born raised in washington d c went through the public schools there got a b a from amherst college and the law degree from yale started out as a legal services lawyer and we were in new haven for a number of years to move to new york city in one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight when i became a member of the editorial board of the new york times and we moved to the place where we now live on july th and i went out on strike amazing series it's public television's wonderful it's a great it's a great service now and it was a joy to be part of the industry after that i went to the rockefeller foundation as vice president for six years triffitt time in the grant making area and education and equal opportunity and then the opportunity knocked in the summer of one thousand nine hundred and ninety four when i was asked to come the president the c e o of the national urban league did that for nine years that was the job of a lifetime i know absolutely i come of age ready dreaming of having an opportunity to do something or national cable to i mean national public television those are two areas of helping to shape the public opinion contests and so forth you've been involved in trying to help shape public opinion in terms of your mission in life  it were or were you on the business side or out how i was on the editorial board although i mean i've always been interested in public issues and whether i was in the media per se as it was in those to his yeah his or when i was with the rockefeller foundation and obviously when i was with the league i wrote a lot so i published many articles op ed to the new york times the wall street journal one of the five delta cap'n in the others so i've always been interested in trying to express my views and share them with i didn't know anything about television so i had to diagnose what the terms of success in that position would be and how i could help the enterprise be successful so there's a problem solving exercise what is the field where are the issues what are the terms of success and how do we win and that's the way lawyers are trained to think about new issues and new opportunities that present themselves and whether it's a new job or a new case that you're presented with i can give you language then you've got statues and we've got the structure of the society we have statutes and we have a constitution we have certain areas with and then we have precedent and we have common law principles and hared from britain and so it and the whole and we talk these are the arguments on both sides and this is how we weigh the arguments on both sides and this is the conclusion we reach that's the way a legal brief is structured laying out the problem sifting the evidence in the arguments reaching a conclusion and presenting them and so again even in a technically journalistic position the legal training was enormously helpful and you had the idea oppressive and there's the idea of history and and various interests but also the weight of evidence the weight away of an evidence how substantial is the evidence how credible you have the evidence you have in the law the period of discovery so that you can discover the realities that exist in terms of the issues so they can what is good argument and what are the argument i've heard some people say we've got three branches of government but the media writ of government than to have the other way around i would think of the media as in you know a branch of government if you don't think of it as an institution and part of the core infrastructure of our society ok heaven forbid we should not have a free media it's obviously hugely important here has been for the history of our society and it's becoming more so through time as they get new when we didn't have radio and then we had radio and i think it is i think it now the internet i think it's more so because there's so many outlets i think the biggest challenge for citizens  is to learn how to parse what they see you know it used to be we would rely on certain institutions and we had the wall street journal new york times the three major network anchors to sort of tell us how to think we trusted their judgment more information is coming the raw at us now and we have to develop the capacity to sift raw data and reach informed conclusions and not just rely on somebody else to say well trust me this is where it is not don't we don't we shouldn't trust people to tell us the way it is we should develop the up after the to weigh the evidence i'll give you an interesting example the when i was at channel thirteen in the mid one thousand nine hundred and eighty s we one evening we ran two documentaries on the wars in central america south salvador nicaragua the two documentaries used eighty percent of the same footage they were prepared by people who saw the world and diametrically opposed with same footies same foot time so we ran the two documentaries back to back reach different conclusions how they had to develop the ability to make judgement did you know that's a thing that could be done if you did you did you insist that the producers each had a different view on the thing use exactly the same point all those only added from lee's were these were documentaries prepared by separate entities we we found out about the document and when we screen them and discovered that they had reached the opposite conclusion yeah it was same material but yeah isn't it fascinating that is it all let's run them side by side yeah i want to top of the other in they can that would be even more of a burden on individual citizens yeah to figure out what's coming at them yeah we're getting warm and we're getting more and more information all the time don't the information overload might be able to present they had a  know when times that information overload load in the system from its pattern recognize as you begin to see patterns and be able to see systems or comprehend thing of understanding or process rather than a specialized the main change is that we're getting raw data so information that used to come in to the news desk of a newspaper be filtered by a reporter editors senior editors before it goes out with the imprimatur right now it just comes raw you know so there's no filtration process is no analytical process in the stuff that comes over the internet on the internet and increasingly on some of the political screeds that come at us so i think is one of them of that on public access i think probably because nobody is hyde park corner no he can say anything you want whatever you whatever television i yeah yeah i understand what you're saying but the internet particularly yeah and so that changes the dynamic then i would change your duties of citizens of in educating them south to the reality and therefore it places an even greater premium on the educational process to help people think critically create critically harsh what they see and that which probably would have been good all along but it's particularly well more crucial now in the modern world now with it and that's something that is of interest to you as well as the basic grounding policy statements and so forth which is the organizing right now well i think one of the main issues we face today and i think the reactions to the lack of react adequate reaction to the hurricane down new orleans  yeah we have to begin to ask ourselves are we one nation there are we as splintered nations are are all americans in the same tent with us one of the shared values that we have i think we've become so divisive so illogical that there's a risk of fissures developing within our country and katrina really drove home for us that you know it's the duty of the public sector in the duty of all of us to be our brother's keeper around certain kinds of common issues and i think we've lost sight of that i think we've become so self absorbed and so focused on our own well being so focused on our own the needs and problems that we've tended to ah to push others into the background and lose sight of the fact that that they're there and they have needs so i think went a long way toward trying to address some of the things that before it got sabotaged by vietnam war and that kind of i think of even more monday midterm yeah we don't have much in the way of an effort to provide affordable housing in our society and most of college tuition  pensions evaporates so and and we're seeing more and more jobs that are being converted from regular full time jobs to part time or contractual employment so we've got more economic insecurity working people middle class people are struggling harder economically it's harder and harder to put a kid through college it's harder and harder to find affordable housing in and yet we have tax cuts for the very wealthy one point seven trillion i think was  generation that really set always that really tells you where the priorities are and in the political realm and we've got it we've got to really have a conversation this country in a political conversation about whether that's the kind of society that we really think we are fortitude but you know to have all the fortitude that we need in a robust system people have to vote for both sides so we're you know the truth of the matter is when you think about it we've only had three democrat we have had three terms of democratic presidents since one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight so the country has definitely taken a move certainly to the center and beyond the center toward the right and that's been going on for quite a while and out of think anybody would say that all over the world new york times who were used to hang your hat famously had the occasion they said the do super powers in the world the united states of america and world public opinion that is in opposition and that is as i get it from people coming in from around the world is  unfortunately the case that a great number of people the masses if you want of the world are very very predisposed toward not liking very much what the united states of america is increasingly standing by well interestingly enough i mean david brooks in the op ed column this in the times and also i forget the name fellow at the there's a an article in the york times sunday magazine just this last sunday about the fact that aren't we all americans i mean what katrina whether you think about it as a race or whatever one what katrina revealed is that we we don't think of ourselves as all in the same boat and you know the fundamental role of government is protect all americans from certain emergencies and they sit in cities that are beyond their capacity to deal with everybody so i think that's been a wake up call to the american people i hope it has been and certainly that conversation is going to continue through the midterm elections next you know probably continue on into two thousand i think that you've been involved in their own civil rights and you  do there you got that you got the thing but then you but you also are very cognizant of the fact is really good if we can get some people on the board on the board of directors of right age or companies maybe into a c e o position with major and that sort of thing helping people into the mainstream and away so you're aware of that but what came out so well and i was watching it without even being aware of it and so what i realize in here is all these faces death to people and they were all black and brown so the race issue is still very very much part of what  called the great american dilemma you must have a sensitivity to that having been involved in the civil rights vineyard was certainly were the images we saw were overwhelmingly black and brown there's plenty of white folks who are caught up in the same thing a lot of people in the nursing homes a lot of the people i saw you know refugee you know people who had been who had left the nursing homes who were resting on the conveyor belts in the airports were were why is well i thought i made i think it's important to recognize the ethnicity of those who got stranded but beyond that question per se what was clear is that they have got out and they have got stuck there and and i think that was a fun of the government at this certainly at the federal level not placing as much value on have nots as as it should and not mobilizing to make sure that that everything was done to try to keep people out of harm's way and move them out of harm's way and and and so we didn't have the kind of leadership at the federal level we had a you know federal emergency agency that was kind of a joke in this going to go ahead and buy a you know political you know you know point and you do that when you really don't believe that the job of government is to do a good job  so again that's a wake up call to right in this country and we've just got to be sure that we're real clear about that and that that's why the job of a citizen in this day made is not just to say well i'll take somebody as word for it is to look at the facts and  conclusion but which is don't bother with the facts mr fright yeah it is the fact that it's true it's like that but it hasn't always been you know just back and reading as it always been throughout all it would be here two hundred thousand years are all out of africa that sort of thing and you look at the course of civilization and the emperor and roman empire there were a few people who ran everything rd of the people were slaves in athens even the time apparently there were slaves we had a feudal period where we had service from all around in the mud while a few ran things and it's always been a few people who  toward the very very wealthy leaving government crippled in its ability to deal with star that he's on t v and that's what that is northwest the american people have to decide whether this is the kind of nation we want in i think katrina has really been a wake up call i think it has it really is focus that i was raised in detroit and detroit was there in fact i was raised in detroit my mother my maternal grandmother's house my mother was in the ring henry ford was as a young man  tinkered in their garage in detroit before we build this great thing we had an assembly way the great you know burst of energy at us and we had all kinds of things and then that all came to focus a lot of people came from the south a lot of people came from agriculture went into the factories five dollars a day people could buy a car the thing going after the nd world war was a great time for a great number of people have one job you go you could build into the middle class the middle classes really grew growing and it made a lot of sense i just saw a piece a little couple weeks a couple months ago in you york times the new york times and it had a thing in it said that they wealth distribution in the united states is that the super rich are separating themselves from the rest of society in alarming proportion and all of the money is going to the super wealthy even just difference in themselves from the wealthy much less the middle or lower people that that's what is becoming almost futile a way to look at it and gotta look at it that way the other way to look at something like only eight percent of kids from low income families i get to go to college where seventy some odd percent of the kids from the upper income families get to go that's very just you it is just you yeah i did so i think and other think the way to look at is what is happening regardless of what's happening to the extraordinary wealth of what's happening to working people in middle class people and more people is it harder or easier to send your child to college it's harder are more people losing their health benefits is housing less affordable i mean i read the other day that that there was  regardless of what's happening to the super wealthy and what the faith of those in the middle what i say to people who work in to keep this country functioning and we've got to make sure that this society works for them now right and that there is a mess i couldn't believe it was so anywhere in that and then there's all the war thing there iraq thing that kind of the national politics if there is this problem we had that thing for after the nd war forty's fifty's sixty's and then somehow we got the eight we only got about eight percent as i understand that eight percent of our private sector employees now are unionized unions are in disarray in terms of representing the workers rights in terms of that and in detroit my grandfather was a union organizer turn of the century but the sharp drop in union membership and someone i know who knows the union situation well says that in part it's because frankly the unions have been as attentive to the broader array of needs of workers as they should have been very focused on compensation ways use wages but not focus on the larger child care needs lifestyle needs etc that people are thinking about and so if you if an employer responds better and that impacts obviously the whole tilt in the main problem in packs a whole lot of people including even nowadays the teachers union they were you in my old days they were unionized they were professional on the professional thing with it you don't have the lawyers the guys you don't have the doctors unionize and so when you have the professional people but that is a problem about the people with less advantaged people in it or somewhere in there the gospel is something take care of the least among you and among some of our political thinking i think is there by a lot of people like voltaire and others have said that kind of thing we are not sufficiently taking account of the whole of the society and are in order to be concentrating upon those that are already very well known that i mean there are there are situations where workers are given a choice of union national dialogue of how that's going to be done we had it we had you were involved with with i think you're involved on the board of arising of honor i'm mistaken that you kept track of things in the thing in terms of communication we had a communication that const in that piece of legislation which is structured the ground rules for the large thing communications industry one thousand nine hundred and six and even being examined now and so forth if you get back to something as basic as for instance in a world where there's increasing technological capability to produce things and so forth you get back to a thing that the basic what would be the basic policy grounding statement of the governmental system out of history that we're merging from in terms of basic broad ideas of of organised economic organisation of a society it seems to me it would be the employment act of one thousand nine hundred and forty six is the basic policy grounding statement in terms of the structure by which we're going to contemplate the economic development of this society and is there a need for there to be an investigation of the basic policy grounding statements as there was for the communication in three and other things to deal with the altered guys or the alter that are coming out of history which are changed so fundamentally that we need a basic look at the policy grounding statements by which our society is to be organized in a very large system where is not reaching too far well just gotta be careful what you can realistic think har realistically impact i mean i i believe very family that we audit we are structure our society around opportunity what does that mean it means that if if if you work you should be able to hear in a decent living so you've got to think about the adequacy the minimum wage which care you've got to look at the fundamentals of being able to live a decent life secondly i think we've got to look at the quality of our education system we've got a long way to go there's been a lot of pressure on schools to improve but not enough attention to what happens inside the classroom and certainly not enough attention to making sure that all the teachers inside the classrooms are as able as they need to be and as well trained as they need to be and and given the maximum chance to succeed that they need we are not still not remotely serious enough about improving our k twelve system and then i think we've got to look at the access and affordability in higher education i mean it boggles the mind that in the country that you know pioneered the idea of a lingering college you know if you're motivated you want to get higher thousand dollars a year to send their child through that child i think if you go to school that doesn't make any sense opportunity society so i think we've got to look at the the fundamentals of an opportunity society and make sure that those building blocks are in place think think about the impact that the g them to make them more fully accessible to everybody and not allow a retreat which is what it's happening now we have retreated from that we had mr franklin roosevelt we got so security voted the year i was born thank god brought a basic bond and you know for a whole lot of and we have we don't pay teachers much we don't pay attention much to those kind of things that group into leaders better but we don't pay them nearly enough in order to attract people who you know really a draw into the profession and in everybody and i mean if you're an adult you ought to be able to teach in new york and live like an adult without having to live with your parents a room with people you don't know people are doing that more and more yeah and i think that into people are having a good team of like college student people right and that is that doesn't make any sense a to people who would be drawn into the profession just for them won't do that so i think we've got to think about the fundamentals the building blocks of an opportunity society and one of the horses you know access to high quality preschool are just some things we know the other thing is what we want to promote ownership know i think more people need to own their own homes more people need to own their own businesses we've got to be careful this rhetoric about promoting an ownership society has if we're not careful an ownership society means that if you have a problem like you can't get out of new orleans you own that problem yeah you build you know really espouse opportunity to make opportunity excess a bull in and really make sure that the fundamentals of the shared opportunity is shared obligations are in place and i think those have been shredded we've got basic policy grounding statement again is they out of the nd world war the employment act of one thousand nine hundred and forty six i don't know if there's another one that sets out the context by which we see the society's going to be organized  to actual production through time frame in time jefferson's day a guy had a hammer and a piece of leather to come to ours to make a pair of boots and so forth but all of the non labor aspects of production was not in very  great prominence now you've gone to where it's something other than human labor whether physical or intellectual human labor this group tribute thing to production patent rights you know technology land all these kind of things that are owned very often in a society by corporate stock and that it's owned by a relatively small group we have a very small base in terms of the people that own all the culture that says that are increasingly responsible for noxious and is it possible also there's the undercutting of labor by software programs that can do what labor has had to do but it's maybe only had gone from ten percent with labor other than labor in the  time jefferson time some people i've seen charts as a projection of you know that it's only maybe something to eleven thousand and twenty percent of the actual production of labor we're going to distribute all the income by labor and leave the ownership of all the assets that are responsible for wealth creation to those people like we did to futile lower there are things you can do to legislate opportunity you can legislate affordable preschool you can legislate affordable accessible health care you can legislate minimum wages that increase in value over time do evaporating the face of inflation you can legislate affordable to say higher education you can legislate affordable housing with with support for families that are that are poor there are things that can be done that we don't have the gumption or the illogical commitment to do now that we used to and we need to revisit and get get back on the page there and you can reallocate resources you can look at the tax revenues and say well instead of providing a tax cut to the extraordinarily wealthy in our society we need some of that same money to make these other things that we can legislate more for for people and that's that's where i think the american people really have to engage and what kind of society do we want do we want this to be an opportunity society or do we want to be an exclusive club opportunity to have a job they've got opportunity alternately to have a job is there go and should the idea of ownership  says are all owned by someone and somebody who's got a good healthy amount of stock ownership in our major corporations has income coming to them because they ownership they have ownership over technologically oriented productive systems which are increasingly responsible in a ratio would labor you have to you know do it the ownership thing shouldn't be preempted by somebody on the right if if this is actually something other than human labor is increasingly responsible for production the ownership of those that are raised by the way things are actually being produced should somehow be filtrated like the homestead got some land to be hunting land we want to make a number of policies that promote healthy economic activity th create jobs and go to buttress that though with legislation which says that jobs have to pay decent wages they have to provide decent benefits and we're going to have we're going to have the underpinnings of opportunity which through you know we have preschool decent k twelve education affordable higher education and you know training for people i don't know that you can legislate the creation of a job but you can have policies that promote economic growth so i would focus on on on a robust gives you know the best anti poverty program in addition to social security is a tight labor market that creates lots of jobs and if you can have lots of jobs that are good jobs that that have the same benefits then people move forward and that's certainly what we saw in the latter part of the  little more idiology on this than i want to know what i want to be sure of is that people who participate in the economy have good standards of living good opportunity absolutely and we make sure that the society works for them  they get a tax cut or not and these people want to say the government is the problem get government off your back the government to give you something to the less advantages in and this market fundamentalism is in the bible are not very dangerous because on the fundamentals of opportunity yeah right in keeping opportunities that we did some things in the in the end this is what the urban league has been of on this that you were involved with actually throughout what you what you've been doing the urban league's been focused on that well when was the heyday when the society was structured in a way if far the national economy let's say in your view that was favorably predisposed with things going on in that desired guised in the legislative environment and so forth there was favor would have been in the mid sixty's when the war on poverty was being yeah and that was great for society writ large problem was that you know black folks and women weren't in the game so the struggle of civil rights was movement was to blast open the door and get everybody into the game you know we got a long way to go that way yet tight labor markets lots of jobs being created the growth in earnings record lows right in the unemployment rates among african american yeah no relation for a long period ran it was so but we've just in in  disciplined discussion of that and again i hope that the american people having looked at what's happened with the iraq war i haven't looked at what's happened with the hurricanes having looked at what's happening tax policy don't just you know take somebody whose word for  it and will instead develop the tools to think critically about what's going on and we do you think there will be political leadership that can really effectively address this in a way because again like it seems to me that the so called loyal opposition has been very think that's right yeah and it's going to be public opinion will have to have set the context were something other than just going along is there and that maybe with what the what blow in the wind now yeah yeah and if there is an institution like the urban affairs i mean the urban league and that sort of thing will be enthused where that would would that would come up what about an international scale the united states has set itself up in a lot of people's minds have got this war in iraq they've got a big thing china's looming do you think the position of the foreign policy as far as the united states as anything that is important should be addressed in terms of critical thinking and so forth we've been talking mostly domestic what do you think on the well that's of the mountain mining forum for not my forte by any stretch so i just have some reactions as a citizen obviously i'm just you know what's happened in iraq is absolutely heartbreaking to have gone in based on would appear to be either egregiously faulty intelligence of false pretenses or or wor seen we don't really know i've heard people say that we're up against an insurgency the likes of which we've never faced before i can't looking back on it help with wonder wasn't wasn't there a price at which saddam hussein would have become our friend again i mean he probably available cheap a lot cheaper than this war and well you know i just i just don't know i think that the damage that's been done to our reputation around the world is  just awful in there parts of the world now that we're basically contact virtual contact between the west and in the middle east has been shut off and in the muslim world i think that's very very sad how we repair that and what will take what kind of leadership what kind of hard work what kind of diplomacy it will take to repair that i don't know i think that if things can continue to move forward in a constructive direction in with the israeli and palestinian situation that will help but i think we've got a lot we've got a lot of a lot of work to do the most one of the most interesting essays i've read about terrorism was an interview in newsweek magazine with the so the former premier singapore is a grand fellow whose name i forget who said that the best way to fight terrorism is that you've got to do it in could close conjunction with allies who got the problem in their own soil because they've got to root it out and you can't drop bombs on those and the folks who are living within a day to day basis have to go to get out now and and we didn't pursue this this war that way on economic competition me i think i think our country is going to have to get ready for the day when china is a major major economic power means obviously coming on like gangbusters yeah my wife and i are blessed to be able to go over there and or you've been two thousand yeah we spent about three weeks in china and it's a mind boggling yeah sit determined very sophisticated society many aspects of it is st world is ours many aspects of it rd world but it's it's coming on like gangbusters and it's already a force to be reckoned with and i think we're only getting a glimpse of what the future is going to economically economically and who and from that will probably flow of flexing of political muscles yeah i would think yeah because it is amazing to see the t kind of thing but that's part of the dialectic of whether or not they're going to be able to keep that in and that's built against the implosion of the soviet union the lot of things going on you know a lot of things going going on when you look at india and china  dollar a day you know how the hell somebody can subsist on one dollar a day these things are all measured by g d p and the kind of thing and the other realities but we really take the mobilization of all of them to give us heartburn economically though and i don't know i've met i don't know well did a printed he didn't know why what saddam was saying was in the dock at all and he had an argument asian for that that that was probably something that was really skewed in terms of the reality he had supported us against khomeini and you know the kind of  find something where there could be common now and that probably applies to most all of the problems you want to involve people and ideally if you could you would want to involve everybody in a way where you can you can have a happy non zero sum kind of thing that book by robert wright is interesting was a non zero sum that the that because we live in a time of absolutely incredible capability to provide for the through the technological tensions just so we live at a time where we should  and joshua letter berg and others and jonathan shell will tell us that the weapons systems that exist are of such dimension now after two hundred thousand years ten thousand generations of riley reached the point where if they were unleashed it would apparently mean the end of the whole well of the scary thing is we live in a time where there are terrorists around the world who would like to kill tens of thousands of americans and really destabilize our society that's right they would and they see this society is being an evil society in terms of things they grew out of that you know we're the great superpower and people are now seeing us as as though we're in the clear cycle of the th in terms of some changes were called for  end we have a technologically undo that's all extension of our conscious that technology is in the capability of doing now we've got this into this intellectual extension of our central nervous system with the computers and so forth and that also has a tremendous maybe equally significant existentially significant capability of taking care of the people of the world which it has historically been happening available to us do you think we we live in an extent existentially particularly interesting remarkable book about how many of the scientists who were involved in developing the weaponry you know were haunted by the fact that they'd done it for the rest of their lives and that genie is out of the bottle yeah the genes on the bottle now one of things i would hope is that we can use not not that technology but other technology i have little doubt that if we wanted to make cars that get seventy five miles to the gallon we could do it why don't we do it well i don't know you i'm sure we could do it if we decided that we're going to do it could i share something with you we had a fellow in here the other really nice guy you may know him because he's a major lawyers over his name is eric peterson with an s c n major law firm he wrote a book on thomas jefferson really a good book and he we did a out he's a major law firm so he would be one of your you know i got those you know but he was really good but his job is he's in the lead maybe a pair of the major law firm in the city or in the world i'm not sure that handles infrastructure contracts from a legal perspective and it was very interesting to me because he represents mostly municipality illegals and and it's for major construction things like highways and things like that and they have three aspects to the way they handle that it was interesting  design and the other one is build and the other one of operating major systems that could bring that and the idea that you have a design capability which is going to change through time is really interesting if we have a gap between the design we have a capability and unutilized capability it a design sense to do things that have been a we couldn't have skyscrapers before mr otis invented the elevator you go to the elevator so suspect that another way one could deal with the tax code is we could send behavior we couldn't send the automobile manufacturers to start to make those kinds they may do it some people say the automobile why gasoline is going to make well out of it maybe that's one way to do it but we could accelerate  there were political leadership buttressed by political will we don't have it now but i think we could and the political will be one of the great job creation engines in our country alternative energy i'm returning to engineering think of all not design because design in that sense not only is the design of the other good design would happen overnight it would have the design would also be at the live level of thinking about the broad structure of kind of things that are happening but the design yeah that's an interesting concept designed to keep there's a gap between capability and performance and that's a that's a that's a that's a problem why is it that we're not able to do so good to talk to tell you what we do and it is time i think i agree with time for a dialogue in terms of maybe i'm bob broad issues of things confront of the human condition because i grandchildren this is a really challenging time in a large scale rockefeller and that and now continuing and i really thank you very much for coming in and sharing your thoughts it's really a great pleasure to welcome to the program i just wish you all the best and i think in touch and think we ought to make sure that we have systems of communication to the right public access allows us to talk  tomorrow so tune in and once again you brought you right thank you really very much for coming in and for all your good well led life and may continue an even more expanded proportions in the time ahead thank you thanks is running out those graphics and everything i just can't help thinking that we're going to have to do we're going to have to i think we're going to have to democratize ownership as an income distribution system because one of the things  do people are people have needs they don't have the meat they have a way of getting income to buy it had a widely spread like there was a homestead act you had a widely spread there would be the market for what could be produced of these hybrid cars i don't know i don't know that's just my