welcome to the secrets of college planning i'm your host at the new birth and we're going to talk about today some insight guidance counseling at the high school to go to college my guest today is christine abrams she's a supervisor for counseling at hopewell valley regional high school and welcome to the show thank you thank you glad to be here yet no problem so usually i start my guess so where they went to college so would you go to school i went to a lot of schools have a lot of degrees so i can start i went i did my undergraduate work at hunter college in new york city which is part of the cuny system and i got my b a in english there with a minor in education then my m a there in teaching e s l why and then when i relocated to new jersey i got a degree in counseling so i'm a licensed therapist in new jersey and i'm also a school counselor so i got a license in that and then after that i went on to my doctorate at rowan and educational leadership so i love school you know yeah you've done a lot of years ye so let's go back in time how did you end up picking hunter college to begin with what was the process that you took was mom and dad involved how did all work ok actually my parents weren't involved at all because they neither of them had a college degree so they didn't know what to do and my school counselor really felt i should apply to an ivy league school but i have very bad experience in high school where i had to transfer high schools i went to one of the premier high schools in new york city called stuyvesant high school and it wasn't a good perience and i had to transfer into a different school so in my child's mind i was said i want to go to an ivy league and have the same experience i just want to go i want to be a teacher so i want to go to a school where i won't have any debt and i can do my thing and study english and so you know cuny has a number of schools like any state university there's a state university of new york and then there's the city university of new york so i didn't want to go away to school which is think is unheard of now many students want to get away i really wanted to stay home i was young i graduated high school i was sixteen and i knew personally i would not have made it if i went away and didn't have my parents to sort of guide me through so at the time you were able to choose ten schools city schools and i ended up hunter was my first choice because it was very well known for teaching and an interesting line if they didn't let me major in education i had to have a traditional main major with a minor in education which was really good because i love being an english major so i applied to hunter and because of my grades i got into their honors program which released me from all undergraduate requirements except what i was interested in but being the type that i am i ended up taking everything i was  required they didn't have to take so yeah so to go figure anyhow so that's where my experience was with hunter and it was a wonderful experience and it was a commuter school so i did not live away from home i lived at home so so you graduated college early and yes i did more of what was out there so interesting lee enough my liberal arts degree helped me get a job at a financial services firm so i worked for smith barney for a year i started as a secretary which was fine because i could type very quickly and so they hired me but then  a woman took me under her wing and i do i had a very esoteric job called limited partnership analysts now mind you my background not math ok just english but they felt i was a literate i could speak i could probably do the math and i could so i got that job and then i ended up moving to merrill lynch and eventually became a vice president of marketing and diversity in education services and i had a sales career there in so it was wonderful but this was all from a liberal arts degree so i didn't have a traditional major like accounting or finance and they just felt that at that point they could work with me and mold me because i didn't have any preconceived notions interesting you know so once you graduated from college and you've had all these downsized from merrill lynch in after nine eleven they had a huge downsize and i was actually good with that because it was time for change i had been there for fifteen years and i always knew i wanted to go back into education because that was my first love what i knew i didn't want to teach i wanted something different and i love speaking to students so i at the time i was stationed in new jersey for merrill lynch and i ended up because i was unemployed the state pay for my  better career and so they paid for my tuition at t sanjay where i went and i became i went to the counseling department counseling program and got license as a school counselor and ends up working in another school district in new jersey for about five years and during that time though i really missed the supervisory aspect of what i was doing so i went to a very real great program called new jersey excel it's an accelerated program to get your administrative licenses rather supervisor of the gun is council yeah for k twelve so i span the whole gamut of no so what's the process that someone takes in high school to make a decision of where they want to go to college what's that process is that it's not as complicated as people think well kids really don't know what they want to do you know one day they want to be a doctor next it's a lawyer it's not clear so our counselors are wonderful they actually they stay take a lot of time to sit with each student and try to craft where they want to go what they're thinking of doing they work together to come up with a list of schools and parents are involved all the time with that and i would say we don't focus too much on it  freshman and sophomore year we really begin to focus on junior year because that's when they're a little more mature they've given it some thought we do have programs are early on like in freshman year we have something called the avatar program where they become admissions counselors themselves and decide who's going to go where based on their grade point average and the courses they've taken and so what we try to stress to that we want them to be aware of that so for example you know one of the big m perpetuates is in syria you know you don't have to take much you can just do best get weaving a little gem you know a couple acquired no you really have to i mean the end of the race you really got to hang tough and take challenging classes  colleges will look at that because colleges may interpret is not interested really in going to school so and it's a lot different than the student's parents who had a much easier time often getting in with a little more relaxed so the counselors i'm in sophomore year we focus on career right because they have a sense of maybe what i want to major in and then times they'll change their major my major was english i ended up being in financial services and you know when i asked parents at our evening programs how many of you are doing now what you plan to do when you got a no hands go up and it's true and that's what that's how life is and now more so than ever because i think one of the statistics say that adults and young adults will be changing their jobs very frequently so there isn't that on staying with this company until i die it's ok i'm going to see what else is happening so we work with them in software your own career than junior really we meet with them the counselors meet with them talk about getting a list together encourage them to visit schools and then actually over the summer are counselors meet with those parents and students the rising seniors individually to really map out a game plan for them so they're they've they've got it covered a through z and you know the students will change their minds a lot of students are focused on i've got to get to an ivy you don't it's ok i mean there's such a small percentage of students that they accept and because we're in the princeton area it's very focused on princeton and really supposed to be a good fit that's what we advocate is a good fit for you to go on the campus and form love is that does it have the major you want can you switch majors there's some schools who want you switch once you've gone and so it's really it's that's what we try to do whoa that's a lot  years a lot of the you do you actually have some kind of parent flitter something that you actually give the parents or we have a number of things that the we give the parents there's a junior checklist we have so much information on our website we sometimes have  videotaped evening programs will have college admissions counselors come speak to parents and students students are always invited to these there's just so much information you know what we've learned is that some people don't read you know people are more visual now so now we're thinking of maybe pushing out material with short films or voiceover or powerpoint so people can and students and parents can watch them at their leisure because it's hard for people to come out you know our attendance is shrinking more and more for our evening pro because people are stretched yeah and so why not give them the information that they can consume at their leisure yeah interesting and so the these these college nights and things like that do they do it throughout the school year yeah that's what you're doing yeah in freshman year we don't get there it's a transition year for students so we don't do much in terms of that we have the counselors push into their rooms and they're meeting individually in small groups in the way our school the district is configured we have the middle schools directly across the street from the high school but it's still a big transition new schedule new teachers different work so we leave them alone then sophomore year we have a sophomore college planning night and we bring a wonderful speaker in from gilford university who talks about you know what colleges look for and there are so many colleges don't worry you'll get in don't stress here because students are so stressed today it wasn't like that when i was growing up so much easier process and there's no need to be really because they will get in you just have to work hard do the best you can take the classes you're interested in passionate about and then junior year  we have our so many night programs a college essay writing night or in a college director's admissions night so they come in and speak we have junior college planning like senior college planning that are the same so there's a lot that goes on there ye s so it's a wide variety of things that don't go on throughout the are all the high schools in the united states like that or is this just pretty much your particular district i think in mercer county many of us do the same  also try to find out from parents what do you want to see more of i'm an advocate of having students explore different options so we have the schools so we also give them an opportunity to speak to parents and students because some students might feel i really want to be a hands on mechanic or i want to go to collin area arts and i think that's that's fine there's nothing wrong with that you will have a fine career after that and i say to parents when you're looking at schools be consumer don't get the dazzled by the name right or the rankings in u s news and world report which aren't the purest rankings around i mean because they're very subjective in many respects because colleges are ranking each other you have the same three or four in the top all the time right then i say to them ok so you know you do a lot of research on buying your car you need to do that for the colleges and you need to see how many what's the graduation rate number one how long is it taking to graduate now i think even the government is they have their government websites so you can compare costs etc but i think they're even estimating a six year graduation rate no reason for it to be six years you can get out in four you know you really can and so parents should look do they get out and for and why don't they get out before and i always tell the parents have your child call the admissions office and ask which sometimes we had one of my evenings i say to parents you know now don't you call and make believe you're your child and they left because some of them do but don't you know i mean don't do that have put the responsibility on your child and have them called say how come people only you know it takes them six years to get out here wife and have you know that's good because you're asking good questions also look at job placement sometimes universities to up their profile will play students in jobs at the university you know no if they went to school to be a particular you know occupation they should be at the at the college working so how and i say to parents look for internships make sure that you get internships because you know when you meet people on the job you get you know you're a known quantity so when it comes to the hiring and you've done a good job they can say i want to pick anthony because i don't know these people and he's done a good job that's all about the relationship so don't sit there like a bi on a log we tell the students talk interact and that's hard for this generation because of like engineering it's a very strict protocol for school classes you have to take and yeah you do they need engineers you will get a job not a big deal but for if you're going for a liberal arts or the other colleges you really have to be careful and look you know how about to wish g being at the tuition is so high at the college level these days from thirty thousand to seventy thousand a year what do you told parents and students you know maybe we can't afford a particular school but yet they're still go apply to that school again i tell them and this is a conversation students have to have with their parents because the parents want to give them what they want out of love right it's like i want you have everything i didn't have you know you want to go to that school it's wonderful you should but i tell parents do not take a second mortgage on your house you don't there's no reason for it we have a financial aid night we have a wonderful gentleman who comes from he said which is the state organization that provides speakers and does a great job answers all these great questions about taxes and how to fill out your forms but basically i say the parents if you get offers from i always say go where the money is if you get a full ride i don't care what school is ok because you're going to make out of your education what you make out of it and some of the schools i mean i know one school that was not ranked very well but what they did was they made tremendous financial aid offers to students who ha really high authority scores and you know those are part of the rankings in the u s news and world and they got all these great kids in and now they've moved up and you know kids are dying to get in because their pursuit does being a really excellent school yeah ok so i mean they play games so that's ok it's a business and i tell him college is a business so you have to treat it like a business so if you get an offer from three schools and your child love school way above all else and school is not giving you a beer see give go back and negotiate say listen my love is your school believes your color is what can you do you know and you let's it all they can say is no and then it's your option you say no fine then i'll go somewhere else if you really can't afford a four year then go to community college i think community college is great it's got a bad rep i'm not sure why it's really unfounded and the ticket in new jersey if you're in the top i think ten percent or fifteen percent you're clashing into the new jersey stars program pays for all of your community college and then you can move on to a four year and they'll cover part of that  an amazing deal yeah you know and many schools you have to check the school to see if your credit to transfer but with the new jersey they are right but community college is great and particularly and the kids block because i have to stay home with my parents you know at that point you might be able get an apartment and cheaper and there are some community colleges one in pennsylvania that has housing well below are in pennsylvania but because you're not a resident but they have housing it's a great school  so you have to really look for this but community colleges is wonderful because let's face it you're going to be taking the same classes anyway to for year and i'm sorry you know american history or whatever you have to take is the same all over no one's got a lock on american history i really pretty much it is what it is and that's why i tell students when you want to be a psychology major why are you going to harvard i mean it's just it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me you know so think about your major think where you can do it in the cheapest way and do you want to be a small fish in a big pond where because if you're going to a very very very competitive school all those students are going to be very competitive so although you may be at the top of your game at your high school you may not be at the school you go to write so why do you want to go through that right because it's really just a means to an end so what you want to be a big fish in a small pond you go to a public school that has an honors program you get into that you know you have more access to professors it just makes more sense it's cheaper and they probably will give you money toward th interesting is that everyone in your school all the holes will is you oh my god my counselors are amazing like they will talk about this and the things we live and it's funny because when we get parents who have never been through it i feel for them because they're terrified and it's not like it that that's right it's not that it's not hard and we're here to help you and we walk them through the whole process and we just try to just to educate yourself stop being mystified it's not a big mystery at school what what changes have you seen over the years from the parents to the students that are there now i think it hit me in my head was that the class of two thousand and seven way back they didn't want to leave the high school and this was i was in a different district they'd pretty much a mature and we were all the councils we worked as a team we were like we were astounded they being so we came and said we're not ready to go we don't want to go we were terrified i'm not sure why that happened but it seems since that time it's hard to get the students and the parents to focus on releasing and leaving you know they do but they don't and over the years i've seen a lot of parents are much more they hover more over their students and we try to explain that we understand you're doing this out of a place of love and protection but the message the students are getting is oh my god i'm not adequate i can't do this right so we do see a lot of students who go off and they're just like them and they come back and it's not that they're not academically  extra curricular activities or it's theater or dance volunteering at the high school at the absolutely i mean their sports teams we have so many activities they do them all but for college they want if they don't want to see you unlike when i grew up they want to see you have be well rounded now you have to be passionate so whatever your passion is follow that through and they're smart they know if you're going to do habitat for you for humanity between your junior and senior year it and you've never done anything like this before this is just for the college resume ok so don't do that but you know it's true but i think they just what the kids are passionate about things i had a boy who we did a college essay writing  the exercise was write about something you really love and he has said very this is no one's going to care about that because what i really would hope is the taste of food i said will give me an example he says i sneak down in the middle of the night to the cupboard and taste all these different textures and flavors i said that's a brilliant essay no college admissions officers ever read that one i said remember when you're writing them it's got to be interesting because these poor souls are reading thousands of essays my mother is my hero no one can they don't care just wri about what you love and i say that's really brilliant you know depending on what you are made you want to go into chemistry with that one because you can put out stray so that's what we try to we try to get those little gems and polish them up for the students so that they're interesting you know we one young lady tonight from an i v and we called we said are you kidding the admissions office said listen should be perfect academically but her essay was all about her father not about her so that those are the kinds of things you know counseling a large part of it but we do a lot of social emotional support because students are more stressed today than i ever ever seen i mean stressed over everything at a young lady came in said i mean this is their thinking she failed the physics test and i said so and she said no no you don't understand i said what i understand she said not only did i feel physics but this means i'm not going to get a good grade in the class it's like being in the year and i'm not going to a good college and i said so you're going to be a bag lady homeless on the streets of new york and she said she left shows five i said how do you say what do you and she wanted had a particular college in mind because her parents had gone there but they did not put pressure on her she just had it in her head that this is where she needed to go and i said honey it's one physics exam of meet you in forty years and you tell me if you remember this physics and i said you can't stress about it yeah worry about it and the thing is if if there is an issue with students the counselors now and on the on the council recommendation they can explain to the school what's going on because the school looks for anomalies in the transcript so if you have a kid doing gangbusters the first two years and then there's a dip in junior year there's got to be a reason so they go to the counselor recommendation to see what happened there may be a death in the family the student was suffering from a medical condition but you know we do a lot of social emotional counseling with them and really our goal it's not there a p it's just how are you doing what's going on to sort of get them in a headset so they can go back to class and be successful we're probably one of the only there are very few high schools in jersey who run groups we run peer groups for students on different topics and also just to bring students together to sort of get a sense of what's going on and help them troubleshoot and work through issues and what's great about a group is they work together so if i hear you're having an issue and i'm a student i can say hey listen what i did and they listen to each other because you know where the adults are sometimes they please over a sure yeah so that's what we try to do college they go to guidance counselor what's the advice that you want to give to those those family i would say make sure you are child's picking based on a good fit don't think about the trophy schools as much as this is the best choice for my child is that is that a good investment for them and b and parents in particular don't break the bank and that's ok try to minimize debt because the debt load that students have now is astronomical and i don't quite frankly don't know how they're going to get from under this this is to me a big national crisis but no one seems to be screaming about it so try to minimize the debt i'm yourselves at on your child and look at community college is a viable option particularly if you really