looking forward to cause there's so much going on and i want to get your perspective on things like development of communications and public access all that stuff and every lead you can come in and looking forward to this it was good to see you last night and it was good to see terms of public access and communications and that being on the far left john cole wall ski and i my immediate left peers to install far and they are producers here manhattan neighborhood network producers they're both collaborating within the project called the colors project which is i'm here to say a cheese moments of very very very very very high art offer and they work with nate conrad and so forth and then they're also both in their own rights interested down background born raised education a little bit maybe you could kick it off john and here's and you could talk about it and then we could talk some about public access television within the within the within the realm of communications in general and then also some of the facts of the cyber part of what's happening as it begins injury related to the internet and so forth but share your own background where you're born and raised that sort of thing that harold thank you and from i was born in illinois moved down to new orleans when i sixty four and like yeah live asian and i intend to and then college came went to vanderbilt study computer science mathematics and that was a really enjoyable time spent four years there and then i moved to new york to do to the university of texas at austin my education's liberal arts all the way through the university of texas and then i went on to graduate school at tulane which is what brought me to new islands which is a strong connection that jonathan i have we have shared living experience in new islands so you knew each other in new orleans no bowl think oh you had you lived in the same favorite am and then it is really that i moved to new york after hurricane katrina and then we you know ended up working on this television show here and have been and you know it was almost immediately after that program that we started with it we started working on it in november and i think we went on the air by january of two thousand like a half like thirty seconds or a minute of you tube on there just to direct the traffic back to our web site the coast project dot com ok the colors project in this from proved any i understand you all are not really earthlings you're from a space station  of it and now we're in we're we're taking that like we're doing that on our show it's a it's real it's reality to us it's like we're not doing a theatre show words we're living life and we're having spirits that come to us out of there just seems like all the theatre throughout time was building up to the point where theatre became reality and that's where we are now yeah living theater yeah that kind of thing you've done things in times square like that looking to they do that thing always they do this thing not in my name when  there's an execution that kind of thing they put out a play it's a thing i heard you when i was watching your show and i was i wow that's great because we were doing the same kind kylie the same thing and they they took it to a whole new level with a script in it out most the stuff we do is just like life between it being real and being theater in my mind it's all theater it's improvised it seems like if you set up an environment where you can experiment then you can you can be in a safe environment where you're experimenting with you improvisation and then you can set up examples for other people to look at without actually having to go through the experience in real life so i for me i mean i'm just one of the three main producers on the project but for me there's a real distinction between see it are and reality i mean and there's a purpose for theater theater is like to to learn about life it's to it's to investigate life so i don't th really careful about owing because not only because it's my opinion that reality t v is extremely boring what is reality i'm not sure that's where they have people thrown off the island or something in the bugs or something that is so i'm not very familiar with it but it's apparently they call it reality t v evidence in reality demand unscripted i mean the script the scenarios but they put real people in there to interact and see how those real people act and that's like that's the beauty of the colors project because we're real people we're not like we're not actors we're not we're real people experiencing something and we prevailed on t v so it's like it's a little of this i lost my train you know i understand now i stand back and what she's saying too because for speaking for myself my daughter's in theater i'd ever met your meat but she had a thing up in massachusetts and they did it with four cows they put together a program and they had a theater group called sleeveless cedar th venus de milo with mold and everything and they put out in there would put on shows and it was all as much as it possibly could be it was improvised they wanted to improvise they like monte python and they were comedy minded and everything like that and by the time they finish up there were about sixty seven years as a group and then they broke up and what not but then by the time they didn't want that last show and they had a huge auditorium full of people in a local gathering they had but they were moving toward improvise a as a as a way i guess of presenting things but they were also geared into real life situations and maybe a theme or something like that they're what's my life what is my line whose line is it on television that kind of thing and i don't know as for myself  suitor i just think i was i walk around i see theater every day when i'm walking around that i see academy award performances i swear to god just riding on the subway or something or somebody who's walking to some but a normal person like they're just didn't trouble with my daughter talking like that because she thinks i'm a philistine when i think that life is more exciting than anything you can conjure on the stage and i'm probably wrong i know it's an art form but who i am i did often hear it said in your while and said there was no real there wasn't a lot of theater in new orleans because the streets where it's exactly yeah but you know and you can project that out for the world now a lot of people think what would it be here that it is to i guess the distinction is if you're not on a stage or not on a stage  name his name is john mccann a and he was just absolutely the most incredible actor i've ever in all my life matt and he was of the opinion that life was just too dull and that whenever he went into a situation he had to enhance it you know he had to enhance it and he would be he would be like everywhere we went it was like it was never enter the room it was interstage left and he would everybody was there was just in his play and he thought it was like shakespeare said all the world's a stage he did it literally and he was the best actor i've ever had all my life met he was dangerously adept at dealing with other people in a theatrical kind of way in hansing the reality i don't know we're just talking about theater that sort of thing or we come back to the thing you said you got you  studied computer science in mathematics how did you happen to get into computer science and mathematics if i would and then it's a big jump in many people's mind from computer science mathematics to theater and you know you're going between science and you're going over into land oh really so that's a good music and i remember going on bourbon street i was a kid watching that stuff and he'd write musicals and my mom was always a singer so that was always there and i discovered the computers kind independently  just by i don't know how it fell in there but i always liked math and then it just really made sense logically so i just kind of i always wanted to move to new york but i knew if i moved to new york without any like training in another field that it would be difficult to committing a way yeah you know so i focused on getting a degree and understanding the concepts of computers so that i could then generate some money will be seen on the performing arts also you probably saw it as something that was coming  if you were coming in an early stage and now you're living in a field where the thing changes so rapidly everything is changing so rapidly and so forth that you learn that you used to go marching those bands in the march down the street and strutting that come stuff in a very mardi gras yeah we were never in a band i played clarinet and stuff but you did yeah seriously just for a few years grammar school but never really got into an instrument that was it was always difficult i always likely goes to me and i learned about that stuff with with i guess other kids were learning how to repair cars are hearing how it was simple computer slow and and i guess i just it seemed natural to me like i was word processing from the age of six to six unique situation in terms of my age that because we didn't have anything that we had to program right to realize this a big genetic ergo you don't program you know i like i said i have a liberal arts education right i just found i think probably in the st semester of graduate school that i wanted to make things visual things work with my hands more and really at the same time that i took you know that i became interested in the web i picked up a video camera so very a child agree is a supercomputer so he must have been involved with a very low large scale computing efforts are going on in terms of his workers right right so that's so he would have had some knowledge of that because that's a supercomputer was yes well also i used know you would think that i would have learned to be a great programmer as a result but i just ended up reading and becoming interested in sociology and anthropology and then ater i started using computer user computer mor tool like a printing press you know and and so it's no mistake that i ended up forming web company right you know i realized that i could translate people's images for their businesses in years to an online environment d distinction between the world of cyber computer and television we had were on cable television manhattan network here you develop producers here to manhattan so those you know have cable television that's something came along they want to make computers when the cable st came there be really serious computers because they came both six thousand nine hundred and seventy it started moving but they sort of grew together but did you see distinction between the two and what the significance of the difference between cable television developed delivery or production and then the implications of the computer can you address that or how do you see it how do you to difference between the two between the internet and cable well right the internet and the computer and the p c which came along i fifty where john van neumann and everything there was nobody knew this thing was coming but there was like television and there was cable television coming and it was like the only difference between the two is the cable is like a push technology ok you're receiving it you're not interacting with a very much you're deceiving they're feeding you data with the computer the evan in the computer and the protocols used to communicate it lets you can talk back and forth so you can get a stream and then it can give you few options and then you can choose which option you want and then get other data but it's all the it's all pushing data you know it's all pushing out information and it's all coming to you so it's traditional systems of over the air television and cable and everything but now things are moving toward internet has implications for public access and other forms and they're going to merge too because there's this new program my friend i work you know i do  called juiced and it's like so it's pretty much like a t v it up on demand it's loading right now it's loading ok he's doing that now ok there it is what is that can you describe it john what you're done or this right here this program it's by pretty much a brand new program it's beta and the cool thing about it is it's just like it's like it is t v it's like on the you know when you get your on demand t v and you know i'm warner it's the same thing it's like you're going on demand video signals and interaction or call it by the person and that's one step through that right at the new to the way that they got the digital cable going you know that it's digital cable now so that you can interact with it you kind of like request streams and they'll send you the date out yeah or you get a boxing match or future like the great there's like there's only the difference about the cable is that it seems that like all the streams are really well programs like there's there's a lot of people out there that are really like putting together the content and packaging it and creating like a timeline and schedule and it gives it a little more quality that way you know you go to youtube and you get everything and it's hard to find out like the best quality stuff you can only go by like what people like the most it being done by pros yes so so you have these came in there used to be used to be i can remember children i can remember back when there was no television hard to imagine there was no  remember coming home from school when i was about six years old or something and they had a program called on the radio we had radio and it was called jack armstrong the all american boy and they had they had soap operas in the afternoon two they had one called portia faces life and they had one called just plain bill that was for the women who mostly were staying home and everything but i had heard at school jack armstrong there was a venture on the radio and jack armstrong was bronson around on the backs of alligators in a jungle somewhere and i had heard there's going to be possible for you actually see jack armstrong jumping on the alligators with this thing that they called television see her then the radio and i heard it on the radio never division wow would it be something else now they've got computer stupid again yeah the computer will be stupid and that's my opinion of course they can be that pessimists or but but basically this is another web t v and we might be ready for it now i'm certain that all the the people that provide cable programming you know getting together and realizing that the majority of their potential audience now is on mine so they're trying to provide them with something that's prepackaged so they can make sure to get the advertising in there i don't know maybe maybe there's a possibility it will fail again which we would like web t v sort of failed web t v did fail yes maybe it will maybe i don't think it it just was for is premature the ban with wasn't there the people that have the computers the way that i'm currently trying to push my mind yeah you know is to integrate video into design ok so instead of reverting back to the old way of pure television programming why aren't we combining graphical layout and video and designing fluidly with the two of them so that we don't lose the pull media environment and we integrate the video capabilities that we now have because of course by we environment it least it appears that the option is still available to the people to create that media themselves there when i see them packaging you know it looks like it cuts out the potential for people to create the programming themselves well why not just all those names all their brands like all those big companies remind me of companies that are sort of closed to people and just a structure that i was hoping that we'd move away from you know in my idealistic youth i can understand that idealistic view that idealistic pleasures if you've got some more going here and just through your you want to show that john who want to go to the computer thing no i don't know what it is i just grab something but this looks like some fish gyros this is i think it might be national geographic i just saw a program last night and p b s it was pervious and it was a thing where birds it was staggeringly gorgeous and how big they had the geese flying and their flying in there was so beautifully done and how the world they got those pictures i don't know but they were just absolutely engrossing could take my eye off the screen it would be beautiful and so the thing is that we could do that but you got a difference in poland portion you got a thing about that you have some people are going to create professional quality not just the commercial interests but the people have things to say and to do and so what and so you can bring the people in on creating this new medium multimedia communication which is becoming more and more important all the time rather than just leaving it up to the public relations or advertising firms that make very you know high production values things and everything the pros and that's part of what public access mission is is to make it available to everybody in a sense and so that's a different kind of thing than just being watching what professionals are putting on your t v screen is it not is that one of the things that made them in seem a major thing to you and to you down the the ability to have these resources here  it's great the the internet and the team came on it's all packaged so nice are all professionals you know ever is doing and the reason why there was only cable one time because the equipment was so expensive and now the crew is going a lot cheaper and it's like people like were making videos that were posted on the internet that are pretty professional point well that's what i was going to say we the people we can get profession are making we are and if we organize one really package things really well and we can compete with cable i wonder maybe we can compete i person is my opinion that for thinking about things in a large way anthropologically or otherwise i think that there are problems that you always have to advertise old tech knowledge is there old systems that are in place that have been inserted since all day by the new and people after amortize that from a business model to have or there's a lag between technologically or in terms of our capability that we have in an abstract sense and what the market or the traditional values and the institutions we've inherited their so it's outdated and it's nice these are two separate concepts it's what is cutting edge technologically versus what has become you know possible to do in a business environment new cool things and then there's the business people who have a huge amount of resources and then there after that there's when what we get handed and if we're going to look at ourselves as just the masses and  right so you know where you boy or the like how i mean i'm extremely interested in where the lines blur between business and the people and what we as if i'm looking at my i am a media professional but i look at myself when of the reason ok let me just start with why i was drawn to him and because you're given access to really amazing studio equipment and you're using cameras and coming from new orleans which is a really resource poor city all right i was overwhelmed in manhattan to see that i could work in a studio which would give me having been working prior to coming here for ten years a on film and video yeah and then being able to walk into a studio and produce a high quality television program to me seemed like an amazing opportunity to express my opinions and be able to do it regularly   because the cable companies tear up the streets and they compromise public life they have to give something back and when they publish it to the public and what they give back is this opportunity to create your own media now what i would really like to talk about and what i think is really important is the fact that cable companies and they both put on television programming you know as well as provide internet access and telephone know so this institution that we're actually sitting in right here doesn't just represent television programming it also represents the internet and so this institution in my mind i would advocate that a look forward and evolve here and evolve in the sense of being able to incorporate computers and networking and that kind of technology into putting that into the hands of the people inducing here people because because these cable companies don't just represent television anymore they represent the internet so what where i would propose really singularly is that and that m and n come up with a model to create something that would be akin to what we now know as you tube show that not only do you come in here and put together a program with such amazing lengths and such amazing camera technology you know the latest cameras the latest are you equipment and the latest lights and editing wonderful and editing downton's and all these wonderful opportunities but then at the end up with a modern public institution which archives the programming of the people we haven't been able to have there's a real opportunity to do that i mean it's a question of setting up servers  teaching people how to compress video it's not complicated we have all the tools there's the major cost and jonathan could probably speak really we here would be to build a server room and then beyond that to get compression to get onto which is the compression company that i'm aware of to come in and install a content management system so that we can upload all of the videos but how many servers you know know there's this new software packages out there for less than one hundred dollars you saw it on a linux server and you can upload your video files just like youtube and it will automatically convert and you can have your own account and you can have people you can share it and you can vote on it all those things it's like there it's really cheap it's all open source software this is software that academics people that are just interested in the ideas of of computers they build software for free and they give it out and then most companies will come along and then they'll repackage it and then they'll they'll sell it again and then they'll sell the services that they're providing which is pretty much what you  mean what you tube built isn't anything that can't be built by another company and there's other companies other than doing it too and there's no reason why a governmental organization or like a public service organization can't do that also right now and it's just a matter of getting some servers and then ends get lots of band with they got it there like they're hooked up because time warner gives them the bandwidth at a discount price so they got like a big chunk of band with they got the you just need like a few servers in when it comes on the server is a cocaine one server two it's depending on how much people or how many people are doing it you know you just keep cluster in the servers as you get bigger and bigger but i on the deck you know said anything he had planned attack it plays into deck right through a video card in the computer and automatically it converts into a flash file and then he can just put on the server and then whatever link ok i want it that's all we introduce really this looking ahead as looking have just symbolically our sense of potential to be a library a modern library and you know kind of library i would like to flash back over time a little bit like that because i've been in this a long time and used to be when you'd come here just talking very basically right if you if you wanted to do a program like you do here because they had this arrangement set up with public access a five a one c three and so forth and they get some support through the cable subscriber base through the companies you know the mer negotiates time so they can do it and they can provide it for you free here so you can come here make a program that would have minimally been something two like five hundred dollars for you to make a program if you want to go out in the market what was available low end something like that it would be about five hundred dollars to make a program so that meant that was making a nut you would have to do it but now you made it a burial to all the people in manhattan they can come here and they can make a program and it does not have to cost them anything because  institutional layer that makes it possible to make programming for free now that's different than anything we've had the st time i've ever heard the term server it's got to have been no more than about five years ago i ever heard of such a thing as a server i did a program last week with bruce gilchrist and computer do you know a computer the word comes from tell me as i told you yesterday as it happens but there was no such thing as a computer so you're talking it's easy to do now but those things have not been available it's because of the technological development is going to these new things are becoming available does not been available in the past and it's bringing the two together responsible way this one of the big challenges don't you think something like that but cable television public access provided for the people so that they did not have to be a business thing where you have to go out and pay a lot of money to do it to make a program and like that so it had to be it could be done free and it could be open to all the people so that's a different kind of proposition than r just professional think about a business plan to make a big thing that's going to pay for it likely it seems to me if you come here to make a television program that you may not have a computer at home and you may not be able to compress your program and get it on during sat through it seems like the natural extension being that there is this merger between television and the internet yammering right now to the great great advantage of all right would be to get this programming into an online environment as well so so that i know that when i come in here and and produce something that i can then tell people to go to their nearest public library and check it out on line because eminent has put it on my ok so what you're saying is that so you've got you've got public access in san francisco you got it in portland oregon you've got it in berlin germany you've got it all over the world you've got people all over the world the labs are coming out they're moving toward terabyte computers now  terabyte and they're going down into carbon sixty and every year it doubles it's just come tremendous i mean just coming out of the labs the capability is coming so quickly now that you're going to have we're going to end up having a planet of six billion television stations or six billion all people have access to the billet communicate their ideas and thoughts and so forth in a in a in a way to the whole rest of the whole world and worse it having if we think fifty one thousand and twenty years out and why do we make the transition from the historical past to the transition now as we begin to look ahead as producers at m and in specific that one aspect of the cable access facility this year now that makes it possible and open to these new possibilities that the that the cyber world is is putting before us than could be better understood by you than perhaps some of us who are more mired in the past the future and you're asking what does the know how do we get everyone to work together for say one more thing if i make if i say one more thing i think there are larger issues it gets to be political or something like that buckminster fuller who is a comprehensive thinker and so forth he used to say we need a operating manual for spaceship earth we have we live on a spaceship and we're coming into a new incredible time in terms of the evolution of understanding and we do we have systems that we've inherited out of history political economic organized sociological means cultural means and we've inherited out of history this seems to be is being transformed the environmental whole is being transformed and it's creating a new opportunity this nap in characteristic of the past but they say that leaders drive fiercely into the future with their eye fixed firmly on the rearview mirror because they're they've got a lot that they have to deal with coming out of history so it's a period of transition and we have weapons systems that can destroy the whole species now and they're juggling weapons systems now and they're planning and they're modeling they can destroy the whole species that's true so it's a particularly crucial time in a transition on the other hand we have a capability that could provide an incredible communication capability to all the people of the world perhaps with a new paradigm or within a new understanding of what the reality allows which hasn't been characteristic of the past it seems like i understand  thinking unity and the ideas are going to come it's going to come out of all i'm right because while i'm listening to you and i agree with you the potential is amazing however the resources are not evenly distributed amongst people hardly at all at all percent is very kind rated because they have ownership of all the traditional ways in which they've dealt with the scarcity situation we need a new economic model that includes everybody we need an auditor has to be a place where those ideas when gervase you know come in public access before they come in any of the prevention terms of social institutions and social systems there's a lot of technological fix and that's needed and i guess i would i would say that public access represents an opportunity to social system very much since the resources are evenly distributed amongst people on the planet you know this is a community center on the planet you know general this is a community center where people can come together and they can communicate with the whole world greater potentiality all the time as we look ahead right ok so i guess the next step that i could immediately think of would be to get the cable access producers in communication at least one with another all right you know past them of getting programming compressed and put on line ok that's something you're thinking of is something that there before as you see it asked me to visualize the future right run what do you think about edge on this idea she's got about putting things on  and public x is great great system i before i knew about public access really i like my brother and i would conceive of like an art space where anybody can go and they can like make a video and get a d right off after they made their video and like do some poetry jams or play some music or like go in these spaces that are like all around the world they're all connected with the internet and they're all interacting with video projections and you can communicate with the person burns berlin at the same time like that's what public axis will be that's what is moving towards housing another partner there are going ok thought we got the cable far gone we're locally connected no problem there we've got the internet coming in we're doing live streams right now lives easy because it's like you process the data and you throw it away we're not archiving that data the next step is the on demand creating the library building up the library and they and getting all  cable access centers throughout the world united into a common like in a cab making everybody under one whoa or an overall though if i may the alliance for community media which is an alliance of all the public access facilities around the country ok they've got an alliance for that they're there and they're coming in to new franchising time and everything for this this entity this institutional structure that makes that possible it makes it possible for you to do programming that is not a business and they need the user manual of how to operate this public social organ like station where people can come in express themselves have free speech and not just for that all the people f place and that is every single person will have a laptop or some way to connect to the system with them they'll still be you can go to a community center in the center and like merge well it certainly isn't a short order you can also have  virtual community centers where people merge together on the internet the building is important now because we haven't built the structure yet but as soon as we get that internet going and everybody in every can go and make their videos and express themselves in  and it's on demand you can get to it it's going to open up this and these new ideas are going to come out of nowhere like ideas right now are built off of corporations and like the bureaucracy and late takes lots of time to get all the things together but if the if the if the energy is flowing freely without constraints without repression without rules that are like the basic more ality we have to be moral people but without the rule saying you can't do this because i have an interest in this other  is the the medium to translate the data from the server is a box in some room that nobody really sits in front of unless it's broken and all it does is hand out information to people that request is an extension of a computer i a computer ok why is it needed if you had a computer that was one hundred times as powerful as the computer now then you wouldn't need a server because a search computer would have all the power would need is it like a battery connection or a processing every time and here's another metaphor that might help every time i get on line it's like dialing a telephone into a server to ask for a page and it says oh i just got a telephone does two things not only can it send you information every time you make a telephone call but it also stores data so it stores a lot of data and so when we're suggesting building a video server where saying you know  call and you'll get video information sent to you so these servers would have to have a lot of storage capacity because we all know that video data is a little bit larger files as a b i for as a user gaius yeah yeah but i heard i heard the st in talking to me the other day of mr gilchrest who is in the ground floor the beginning he said they're now talking about and i just wrote or they're talking about terabyte computers terabyte and that's not that that that they do we get to the point were the computer and every year the moore's law is exceeded you know it doubles and doubles and is going faster and when they get the carbon they're going down to carbon sixty to word they're going to be molecular computing and it's getting smaller and smaller conversation around to track people ok good and if you know and the idea of even the idea of it's just and i hope i don't i don't want to home critical but there is a tendency in america right now for us to have  similar things from one town to another because major corporation has so much control over things that they can all there's a right to strip mussing and blue print the exact thing and what this is doing is it's sort of it's of limiting diversity from town to town you know and i think that and amman and poses a real opportunity to do have a voice to people from town to town and let some of those cultural forms and merge in any way they can expressed and promoted around the world yeah and i think this would be particularly appreciated in an online environment because there tendency for people who are interested in learning about culture to be the type of people who might be doing research and so if they know they can access it and at from a very small town maybe grand rapids michigan cable company something that you know they know that there's an archive of programming that really paints a picture of what it's like in grand rapids and they want to know about it they can and they can look on line and there it is you know we're going to just another possibility of how aspects to everything it's like library science or something you have to put a grid on reality in order to get know how to draw or just even to get the idea of where if they're if everybody's going to be contributing or something like that where the things are that are really pattering recognizing lee correct in terms of scientific principles or integrative thinking principles or their work or or guides to that to what's available because there's going to become so much of if you've got all  make a distinction between content and structure ok so while if we are visualizing cable access community centers while there may be a structure for creating the programming in uploading it hopefully the content is extremely diverse and actually get diverse content hosted and i keep saying posted because i really believe that if we put it into an online environment that voice you know the local voice will really have a fighting chance and maybe we can actually counteract some of the you know just just the fact that everybody in america is watching the same sick and that really needed to very words used to be worse when they st came out i can remember watching test patterns on the television screen and their television s sitting there was nothing on it there was no programming then there came a test pattern with an indian head i remember one of the networks and then finally came coco friend and always i mean everybody watched my love mom it was very very limited what there was but now it's it's moving from very being very scarce or limited or homogenized to it can be a really very very wide variety of things that can be presented is as very a gated in is interesting is the whole human experience and so not to mention all the creatures a qualitative transformation that might be coming but the public access system it seems to me very important particularly keeping it open to the fact that that's a way to encourage the people the people rather than just the professionals to be able to have a way to begin to get weighed into the system and get thinking about putting their own programs up and so forth urge you mention everything go individual but you there's still a role for some sort of a level of institutional the same time yeah right right right yeah go ahead john and it seems most important while it's cable access to means of an educational kind of institution at once you acquire the knowledge you don't necessarily have to you can just move into an individual level i think while there's people without any resources without the resources who don't have a lab to go back to like in the future where i believe that people will just have their own computer everybody in the world will have their own computer we have a long way to go to get to that on a world scale so for now i know we do have a long way to go in there needs to be some institutional layer in the nation's os we're going to give the people the opposition everything everything is so weighted toward those who are already wealthy and successful one hundred and one percent and it's all weighted and everybody and everybody in the world has to be able to know how to communicate their voice to every other person in the world and encourage them to what they have to say matters it society can participate in a way where everybody matters and everybody feels a sense of participation in that and if we don't work some more than we need if we're going to not destroy the whole thing because i think if they're going on the old system they're going to blow the whole thing up if we don't work toward the city rather than realize the liberation of the whole human community as a community in a kind of liberating kind of everybody can realize not only their full biography but also their full potential which is limited very very limited now because they are stuck on institutions that are outdated as we come out of this is a question of more reality is they are we are we truly all equal and as humans or we not if we're equal then we need this institution if we are all meant to be equal in our existence this institution needs to be here and it needs to be continue to be funded and people need to support across the board but if we're not equal if that's not a moral if that's not a in what's a say in the constitution we hold these rights to be self evident all the and this is a self evident truth for in re if this is real then this is something we have to all be concerned about and work towards if it's not then we can just give it away and say you guys are going to be poor and stay poor and that's fine that's where it's been throughout almost all of human history and it's strange or even a few people who run or having and city but you know as an ontological reality we've only done that within the last few years we haven't been able to see the world that way and ever be correct in terms of what the reality is that transfer is being transformed by the technology trends ending material scarcity for the whole system might be a real to logic reality in terms of the current site guys and our institutions are altered predicated that we live by our laws or states our national interest our individual is asian all that it could be just out of  maybe even understanding of the evolution of universal consciousness that we're coming to a new liberated potential in the universe which really living read a birth side to the thing that we're ready to be able to destroy ourselves now this is a unique moment in the evolution of univers consciousness perhaps a fragile man a very fragile in public access an important part of a means by which new ideas could be finding their way into the public consciousness that might make a difference in the be coming from there more than from your leadership element i would wager i agree because the so that's later important to restrain ideas these are free ideas and those are where the that's where the beauty is that's where things come and that's the truth anyway these are all some thoughts and one of the problems that we've been r nating and talking and see and talking and learning and everything but you know it we've run out of time and we've run out of time on this program i'm really sorry we got talking and i'm mentioned to talk about public access talk about a cap if you good to get some organisation between the producers and for some suggestions to the people that are involved in the public access movement i wouldn't take advantage of the things that are coming out we can help build the structure but also to get it because there's lots of possibilities some of the things you people are seeing in terms of what the i mean i think the fact we've got the cable connection in that we've got that connection for a lot of people to have access to communicating broadly in the some of the streaming that's there all those things we want to integrate the two anyway we don't have me w going on well with dan's great i think other good i don't know sort of people that are involved in public access are good it's a good group a good layer an institutional layer sort of like an educator i'm interested in it as an educational thing as like a university  and all the possibilities are there you can learn an awful lot and you can get the best minds we could be putting up and putting it out there as a university of the of the of the sky or something like that so thanks a lot john call ski and st