for the third time today you can just remember some of those pictures we've all seen too much on television before when a building was deliberately distorted destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down did they actually use the so let me give you a quick brief reefing of what's going on here about three to three and a half years ago i was contacted by architects and engineers for nine eleven truth which is a non for profit corporation that was generated after the collapse of the twin towers and world trade center seven and other damage that occurred you know and there's there's a lot of controversy about a lot of issues regarding all of that stuff and it was just it was created by an art architect by the name of richard gage who is out of california and so they now have twenty seven hundred people that are structural engineer ready for structural engineers and architects and and also i guess some some others and that that group is funding this at the rate of out of pocket three hundred thousand dollars plus or minus and so that kind of gives you an idea that how important they believe that this this study would be so that that contact was made three and a half years ago i turned down they contact me again i turned down again and eventually i gave them preliminary proposals thinking maybe i should take a look at it and so a year ago in may they we started this project so we're on the second year now and so at this point in time the contract is supposed to be up by this coming may in two thousand and seventeen here's here's what's going on there  nist report that was that was put out and that report basically said that this this building was once collapsed because of fire and it's forty seven stories wasn't hit by a plane so let's go to the next slide so i've been knowledge already the people that are funding this and the university is funding it i'm not being privately funded it's the university and through that funding to student was t students one's already graduated with a ph d and he's going to be probably leaving here soon for it with a post doc and the other one is doing his ph d work and  on fire some fire modeling on and buildings and fire modeling not only on buildings but on fire tests on how you actually conduct a fire test and how reliable those are so we're looking at a lot of that kind of stuff go ahead so did building seven collapse from fires and i'm going to say that our based on our calculations we can't we can't justify that that was the case we have so i would say no we did not collapse because  fire this contradicts the findings by the national institute of standards and technology and so basically i'm going to discuss with you and i'm going to probably go read relatively fast and i apologize because remember this is a thirty minute presentation of course i can collapse  t but we were starting way late instead of what starting at noon or a few minutes after noon and if you have to leave you're not going to hurt my feelings i just am so thankful that you're all here and i believe it affects every single one of us not just our findings but that as you probably know it's been these things have been in the news a lot lately because of the political not nightmare we're in so at the end of the day this is on a lot of people's minds about what which is different ok ok let's go on and so on on september eleventh two thousand and one t c seven endured fires for almost seven hours and from the time of the collapse of the north tower which was w t c wanted ten twenty eight twenty two a m until five fifty which is when this came down then that is what occurred on that day the heat their point is the heat from the uncontrolled fires caused for beams and girders to thermal expand that lead to a chain of events that cause the key structural column which i refer to as column seventy nine they refer to it as columns i mean nine to fail the failure of that structure column that initiate a fire induced progressive collapse of the entire building and that is precisely see that ok and if i'm in your way just holler at me and i'll move next in terms of the overall complex t c wanted to see two were struck by planes you see in the direction that they came in it's not part of our study but you'll see where the landing gear struck and so forth and in respect to that you can get it handled the seventh is with respect to that whole system which is right over here ok now why is that so important to look at because what we haven't done yet is we're going to look at the shock waves from the debris falling from these buildings and what that may have induced to that building we haven't done that yet the second part of that study and i'm i'm starting to give you an idea of where we're going to go from where we are right now and i apologize if i'm not being in a normal chain of events but i'm trying to consolidate your time and recognize that you're all making money and i don't want to impose on that much so so that's a first so we're going to look at that the second thing we're going to look at which we don't know yet is is when these two buildings came down they were a huge amount of debris and they were on fire and  fire for a long long period of time and so the radiant heat coming off for those has has the potential problems to the seven that i want to take a look at now the other thing that you need to be aware of is the seven was not on its own foundation it was built over the subs substation and that substation has an area where by i'm wondering and i don't know the answer to this yet but whether they these buildings were connected to the seven through the substation and if that was the case which i believe it was then these buildings are no longer standing here this is the highest point and so if that's the case now we have potential fire from th seven t c wanted to that then ends up with a potential of chimney effect that goes up to seven and i want to take a look at that i haven't looked at that yet what i did look at just to let you know is we took the fires that  were modeled by nist and we took their valuation and we compared it to what we did and determined that did not happen all right so base to so i'm not saying that the other things couldn't happen now let's go on to the next sli so there's that p t c seven and that's our study with respect to the overall complex that kind of gives you an overview of what used to be there it's not there now it's totally different so on on on the october  not up to over september eleventh two thousand and sixteen i went to new york then i was invited to come there and made a presentation there on the fifteenth anniversary of this of it ok and i'm probably going to be having told that i'm going to be heading to boston here soon for an ai a meeting and i just was told that last week that there's an a a statewide meeting here in fairbanks and i probably am going to present to them as well because they haven't had the opportunity to drawings and that kind of stuff ok let's go on so smith barton this kind of gives you an idea i've added this since i was in new york on who were occupying the various floors kind of gives you an idea now nist said the fire propagated on floor thirteen that's why these are in red smith barney was on that floor american express was on that floor standard chartered bank was on that floor prominent financial securities exchange commission was on that floor but you'll notice that there's also some governmental agencies that are kind of interesting i r s and u s secret service and there was a another one or two here that were government emergency management that was there so those those were interesting to say the least ok keep going so let's talk about the nist discussion points that they presented in our report if i may go next please so if you take a look at the building you'll notice right away that it's not symmetrical  this is in plan view a side is basically a is north elevation east not west and south and these are kind of giving you a view and there's four thirteen the one that they said the collapse started at ok kind of giving you mental picture i'm looking at an elevation view unfolding these building side so you can see what it looks like here's an x terrier exterior truss an exterior truss so at five and seven and an exterior stiffening truss and  floors twenty two and twenty four an exterior stiffening truss and then and this is the con ed substation right here that was supported over and so and so so the question that we have is and we don't have any data and nobody really examined the interaction between the substation and the building but in mine your way i'm sorry so that kind of gives you a mental picture of these of this building ok go on please this kind of gives you an exposure of what it this is primarily i think floors eight and floors eight right in here i believe so there the fires some of the interesting things about this the fires were in the building somewhere in the afternoon i on let me just say right up front i have tried my best not to read anything because i know that this is a highly controversial subject there's no doubt about it and so what i've chosen to do is my students i can't keep them from reading material but i have chosen not to read  anything what i try to do is everything i'm present to you is based on a science of what we've learned and based upon the information we have that's on paper documented and then i take that and scientifically try to evaluate what's happening before i publish anything it's our intention to contact professionals and are put in the profession metallurgists structural engineers architects and so forth and get a peer review committee to scrutinize everything that i've done to the point where when we pass that test then we will start to publish i do not want to do that until we've gone through that process i now start to search for that those people and i've already had some that have volunteered want to come forth i have to be a little careful when i do that process to be honest with you to make sure that that they are doing it professionally that they don't have an agenda that doesn't meet scientific criteria that we want to make sure that everybody is on board so there is rumored effect that pass on to you that i am told that does make a difference here in some respects so low it didn't affect my solutions but they the fire department apparently had been in that building before five o'clock that day earlier in the building came in evaluated it said the fires were not significant and they left yet this building came down because of fire supposedly so let's move on now and so then th conclusions for initial local failure the absence they say argue that the absence of good or sheer studs would have provided lateral restraint and the one side lateral support to the greater provide the northeast corner for beams for column seventy nine column seventy nine i realize you don't know where that is yet so just put that in your mind that column seventy nine is an art northeast corner of this building it's not in the center are we doing ok with the ok so the absence of greater share studs basically the floor system in  that's in reference to their report temperature and column seventy nine was below two hundred degrees c in the same reference movement along the beam axis was caused by sagging lateral displacement of the grid framing in the column seventy nine was a result of thermal expansion of the beams framing into the greater now i'll try to put this together mentally for you in just a minute there's just a lot of stuff for me to care carry forward for you very quickly ok one of this is an elevation view basically they're saying here is for thirteen it all initiated here it moved out they lost lateral support at the at column seventy nine because of the it moved so much that it moved off the bearing plate as support plate and then you lost the brace length and then begin to progressively collapse and fall down that that was there and these pictures kind of gave you the buckling initiated in right right here but it started up here with no support ok anyway that's there that was their final let's move on this is in plan view were column seventy nine is ok the blue is an important consideration that we didn't find until about two months by taking and substructure ing finite element wise pulling those things out putting some equivalent springs dammit so we could actually get the stuff done they found that it was so excessively time consuming it was taking days and weeks to run a computer model that they took this area put it in springs and then the rest of the area they just created as pinned or are fixed and said wait a minute now we have two parts of this building that are not being handled the same in plan view that that means ok is it really going to behave that way no it's not because at the end of the day it's either connected with with the sheer connectors and semi rigid connectors or it's not and so treating it the other way is just potentially could be a problem so there area of the floor where the connections were model from floors eight to eight to fourteen and that's after the two thousand and four report of this go ahead keeping that in mind outside the selected area the connection ferries were not modeled and this used fixed repinned so that was in that area not in the blue or you with me here and so connections were not model for the exterior mode frame either so let's move on greater was considered to have lost vertical support when its web was no longer supported by the beam or the bering sea and the bering sea that column seventy nine was eleven inches wide so basically they said it moved more than five and a half inches five and a half to two more than so let's take a look so here's what they said ok everything moved this way that's from east to west east to west and column seventeen so so here here we are in this area that is that greater c seventy nine is in this area and so that they had at least five and a half inches and that was reported two thousand and eight and two thousand and twelve they came back in modified it and said it was actually more than that six point two five inches to the left that caused all kinds of problems here caused this this girder here to have problems but the column itself lost lateral support and so therefore now instead of having one floor height of lateral support it had to floor heights without lateral support hit this is an idea and if you can click on that video there's a there's a place down there right in here think you can see how the true structure actually failed what's going on it should have just come on down well there goes this is there there's a simulation do you notice something kind of strange doesn't look the same so that should have that should have a immediately got somebody attention there is no connection modeled in the outside frame so that's what it should have looked like and there's a physicist actually model this and determined that it was freefall and they flooded plotted i mean he actually went in took the video clips and did a freefall analysis and determined it was within just a few seconds of what that happened ok meaning that if that was truly the case  physicist then there wasn't a structural risby resistance blow when it started to collapse a process of why is this so different remember what i called your attention to part of the system is struck stiffer than the other part oh no it's floors and so therefore you would see that this is coming down that's less deaf right and so it's it's coming down that way go ahead next pl so this is that the representation i'm talking about this shows you this is where the flexibility is they bottled the connections the way they were on this well actually i don't agree with that either they they they attempted to model the connections the way they were over here they put in pin and fixed and so therefore it was different than than the reality of what was going on so this area i turned it upside down but this is where you looked at it and this represents the connections so outside the selected area connection failures were not model separated collapse into two parts basically what was happening ok go ahead and you could flip on it here again just kind of get it another symbol of exactly that's what's really that was the explanation i was wondering about when i first saw this whole thing and wondered what the heck is happening here it doesn't represent what's going on so and so there is there there is our model which doesn't look anything like the real thing in reality ok let's go to the next question so and this approach the issues that led to five and a half inches six point two five inches of movement what are the following here's where i start to give you an idea of why we disagree the non composite and the main girders they they neglected the the concrete slab contribution to the resistance they said there were not we we then came back and found that there were but we also and analyzed it without and still didn't get their results and let me tell you why so we also treated it also non composite that way to be didn't get that didn't get their results i'll go through all of those issues here in a moment but in reality they're worth your studies over those girders we found it on the drawings and but it wouldn't matter quite frankly because all of the beams framing into the girders were cheers that it and so they couldn't move anyway so at the end of the day and quite frankly if you have a concrete slab on a greater or on a beam in reality what happens really is there's friction also mune are mul and so there is some resistance so you if you're going to treat it as a non composite system at least give some consideration to thermally how those two things interact with one another on please so the u a s that's who we are structural modeling we use two programs first of all i absolutely essentially believe that if we're going to use computer programs we need to make sure these models behave properly so every day the two to students at that time would one was using abacus one was using sap and i had them work we started with auto cad put everything on auto cad for forty seven stories then start bringing them out and if you've ever used abacus it's a highly highly highly difficult program to use in terms of a learning curve but it's really sophisticated so we can do a lot of things with with it and so we analyzed with abacus and we compared it with step two thousand the reason we chose step two thousand it gives us non linear capabilities and also gives us progressive collapse capability and the faster we can get there get a lot of what if what if what if much faster that difficulty with sap two thousand and no lot of you in here have used it when you start looking at non linear springs and that kind of stuff it's it's not a simple fast process it's a it takes a little bit of time to put him in anyway so i have call in the control of making sure that every step of the way every day the two guys were checking each other making sure they got the same results were in the two different programs making sure that i agreed you know so we many times would change things because we couldn't we couldn't agree on what was going on so we developed non linear springs for the structural connections we did that because the forty seven stories are so many members we replaced all of the we were replacing for floors twelve and thirteen we replaced all of those connectors with springs ran it is really really fast when you do that but it's nine highly non linear and i'll show you how that works composite we consider composite partially composite noncom posit response what we want to do is is balance the problem so we took the most ridiculous side to the to the other most ridiculous side and we know that the answer is somewhere in between floors twelve and thirteen springs were counted highly dependent on the aggregate that used at seventy five percent i read it and so we went i went to determine dolemite aggregate was what was being used for that particular area we then got thermal expansion to match it and then we put that into our model so floors twelve and thirteen and closer to forty seven are using for sap we're only using abacus for force twelve and thirteen to get a handle on the behavior of the fire nest models we use there's although we created one as well but we use theirs because theirs was worse and so we wanted to make sure that at the end of the day that we were going to give them the benefit of the doubt everywhere we could we used for heat transfer we did solid works ok go on please steel framing connections we did down layer springs that all stories we're still in progress with this it's a very time consuming we're now starting to consider maybe this is not so wise because the exhaustive effort it takes to get all of those in there so we're going to we're looking at the lower bound upper bound again approach there and so when the progressive collapse begins that to occur then we'll pull it out those areas take a look at them and maybe put the springs in where they belong so if we need them so that's that's what we're looking at in order to cut time down substructure in frames and concrete floors were used to minimize computer time he transfer was studied for tile over the concrete was looked at floor with the comes off pretty easy and there was also sprinklers but there's an argument to be said that the all the water had been used from the sprinkler system from the towers one and two so i really don't know whether that was in effect at the time or not so we said ok let's throw it away we won't even consider it ok so we looked at it we looked at it in order to take this highly well it's  not an isotropic floor system behaves differently in one direction or another we we ended up with an equivalent system to be able to model that accurately and then when we what we did every time we replace something with something else we would study the replacement and make sure we got the same results before we ever put it in and simplified the system ok then we could always come back take what we got out of that system put it back in the original and say ok that's that's truly the correct value ok let's move on this is an example of what we were doing in terms of connections this is the c connection that everybody argued about at column seventy nine clip angle seat here they they didn't show any  they were shot there were stiff and no stiffeners we put them in so this is the this is our computer model of that connection and you can begin to see that it is pretty it's actually representing and we studied make sure that we got those values ok go ahead let's move on a little bit so this is the floor system and floor thirteen for twelve is almost identical these are the elevator shafts columns seventy nine is that right over here so so i just want you to plant in your own mind if column seventy nine starts coming down would that building have come straight down as you looked at it the first time you saw this thing because keep in mind this is not some magical and nor and that is not in the center so the first thing we did is we look to since the centroid will sinter of those floors to see where that might be because it's tough enough for something to come straight down if it's a perfect system so i don't know exactly what was happening here but we know that in that video it shows it coming pretty straight ok and so we're going to look at not necessarily what caused it but what can happen to make that kind of happen make that kind of view occur so we're going to that's one of the things we're going to start looking at go ahead please so sample connection response this is kind of give you a snapshot of how we were modeling the connections we were getting low defamation curves for sheer moment axial torsion all of the various things this is just a connector sitting right there kind of give me an idea how we were modeling and this is an abacus out outcome and abacus is really really accurate and you can get really excellent response out of it go ahead and then another kind of this was interior girder twenty four seventy six to sixteen by twenty six beam and so let's go on and this again is located here and the next picture kind of gives you an idea how we were modeling it so we had the actual bolts in here the spacing in there everything just that way it was go ahead please and there there is it's response and of course we got a non linear response out of that go ahead and this what it looks like and so we did approximate that curve with straight lines but that kind of gives you an idea of where we were we are with say this is just another one and so forth and so are this your displacement value go ahead and so now let's talk about some of the other stuff that i want to share with you how we doing on time way past sorry it was almost one o'clock so if you guys ok thank you go ahead so this is the u sap model floors three the forty seven exterior bracing remember we had stuff on the outside here we put those in substations down here below go ahead so just some stuff i want to share with you the steel as they asked him a thirty some status stress between the fact that the concrete is tach to the steel with shear studs and the steel is moving at one rate concretes moving a little bit different so there's going to be a little bit of this patient there but keep in mind that nist completely neglected the concrete actually moving so they they didn't even consider that go ahead please this kind of gave us a material response versus temperature of what's going on here for that and so this is  at dine twenty five foot six was the heights of those and to see basically did we have an effect of a buckling problem versus temperature in a column that's what we were looking at on this curve to try to establish where that fire was this is that nest of valuated fire we look at that and used it based on everything they had done and so if the column had it supports laterally there would have been a problem at all one enough heat to create a problem ok go ahead so here's the here's what we looked at these are there are fires after nest go ahead and that's one floor thirteen also floor twelve very similar so back up a second please so here we're dumping the heat in in this area northeast corner right my argument about this is that keep in mind who are on these floors the people on those floors were financial companies i can't believe that there was enough combustibles on those floors to create the fires seven hours later to make this thing happen you know that that in itself has always been in the back of my mind where you go get that many are that the financial companies are probably going to put all the your records if they're if you've got a business with them probably enough in a fire vault and won't be scattered all over the place even if it was have abacus results structural expansive movements here's what's going on here's the floor twelve and thirteen where all the problems were now keep in mind you're saying well you're only looking at a couple floors here that's true what we did is we substructure data out as well we took a look at the stiffness of all of the stuff above it as difference of all the stuff below it pull that out and said ok let's focus let's look at it in detail what's going on here and see if we can end up with the same thing they did ok go ahead there column seventy nine these are the elevator shafts and so over here i'm going to share with you these are these are displacements lateralus placement but don't try to read that i'm going to share go ahead so column seventy nine of floor thirteen we had one point eight five inches of movement and in this way at point nine four this way notice it's this way nist had it this way go ahead please here's those beams over there on the northeast corner there's that girders come seventy nine ok so how how is it possible that all of that moved but that they had came this way how is that possible because the exteriors framing was less stiff than here the fires are in a zone so any time you look at fire or you look at any kind of expansion if i have a bean if i have a member for example and i've shared this with students if i have if i have a b something and i heat it up if i have this and locked the it is going to expand that way if i lock this in it's going to expand that way so it's a function of it's stiffness and if i have nothing and it's just on a table and there's nothing resistant it's going to find a center point and it's going to expand with respect to that they had that fixed out there and so everything was moving this way if you put in the members how they're connected together the zero point zero movement is pretty pretty close to here it's not out there so we got about five and a half inches of movement on the exterior but not a column seventy nine it was only about one point nine five it was this way ok go ahead and buy two different programs by sap as well as abacus so those are four twelve similar kind of results so we're actually modeling how it was built this is a virtual model of the true structures as best we can determine it ok go ahead so comparative studies to just kind of give you an idea for framing steel connections it and and nest didn't only did a partial exterior for framing connection include springs yes but this did not go to the columns different i have to ask your have to ask myself if the fire is there these things are moving you have to consider somehow and so we can't just throw them away and say it's not happening because this system has got to be able to respond as a system not as pieces so the hot thermal horizontal movement of column seventy nine they're saying over five and half inch it came out was eventually six point two to the west ours is to the to the left actually i think i've got these backwards it's the other way so but anyway it's in the opposite directions nist and you a f based on this column temperatures column seven i did not buckle under gravity loading so i would have thought that would have been the case but that didn't happen to producers were high enough so they are saying it all happened because of these cars on movements ok move on so our conclusions are the concrete floor diaphragm stiffness is significant even though sure connectors and frictional resistance ther expansion is not a trivial item ok the thermal expansion of the concrete deck cannot be ignored and is likely less than steel the value is highly dependent on the type of aggregate we know that it was it was a little bit of a difference the research team evaluated fired by considering air space below the beams and now there's an air space kind of like the suspended ceilings and so that stagnant air if you will and that stagnant air if the fires from the top it helps you but if it's from the bottom the fire goes right through this pretty quickly and it really doesn't buy you anything so we looked at both of those kind of conditions space between the drop ceiling and the structural steel framing the result is that the fire underneath will likely burn through the drop ceiling quickly it's resistance heat transfer is likely not available to help you this vertical collapse was not consistent with that of the actual collapse and the difference was primarily influenced by not modeling a significant portion of the structural framing connection details at least that's our interpretation at this point we might find more i don't i don't expect to move on please so what's next we'll finalize placing springs and every floor on sap two thousand model or at least looking at ways to a count for them we will conduct progressive collapse caused by various conditions such as i very told you so you figure at the substation level i am so certainly concerned that there was there was a loss of support at the fire at the at the ground support because if it truly came down with no resistance somewhere there would be resistance somewhere along that line so i want to take a look another look at that try to really really evaluate well shock waves imposed by falling debris from the towers i don't think it's a problem but we're going to evaluate  it we're going to valuate everything we can think of even if somebody says did you look at that we'll look at it because i don't want to day end of the day saying why you should have looked at that that's probably what happened so i really want to address any and i've had people  presentations said would you check into this of course i'll check into it because i don't want it to be on the table and we haven't thought about it so shock waves imposed by the falling debris we're going to look at we're going to look at examine the buildings response to various columns being taken out so we're going to we're going to start the secrets trying to find out what and in terms of action of time you know what is it going to take to make that thing actually behave the way it did it's not a trivial issue and said it was not a problem that also set up another flag they saw that there was enough material even now apparently you know otherwise why would they have left you know they had plenty to do around there that day of course  this for a long time and getting stuff from lots of different sources and he does have a lot of videos i will try to get those and i think he's actually coming to fairbanks in winnie i a is coming in november so  if that happens it might be a good opportunity to see because he has he has almost and several hours of presentation and he's been assimilating information from over the years and people there's not a lot of people doing any work on this in the united states but there are people in other countries doing the work you know denmark and england and various places that see that there's needs to be things that that are being done not sure i know the reasons why that is case i mean we have some really good schools and fire that's at the university of maryland in a couple different places i guess a but i don't i don't know why it's not going on but university of manchester one of our students went over there and studied and it turns out that he was one of his class projects was talking about this building and then when he got back here and got his master's he we contacted i had no way he did no idea i was working on i had no idea he'd worked on a little project so you know but i do know those guys are doing work over there so it was kind of interesting and also there's another university university  i don't know the answer that yet alex i do i do know that it's you know it's i think it was concrete columns and they built on top of it so that i think that substation had access to all those buildings i'm also worried about whether there was any any tanks of fuel or anything else that down there that caused an explosion that we don't know anything about so i'm trying to get information from that keep in mind i was i thought it would be just so natural for me to go ask the city of new york to get all the data not true actually this is the port authority that owns this not city of new york and they have a whole different view about how to share stuff and sharing a least i don't think i mean they might be willing to share but a lot of people have tried it and they have shared some stuff as no doubt about but there's a lot of stuff that's locked up in vaults i think that are that have because there's been lawsuits you know with the we're looking at that very issue today my so far who is my graduate with a ph d is looking at that today in the last couple days he said those forces are huge but in reality that can't be the case because that's the most flexible piece and so you've got to remember that it's also connected to the floor system and so if if it can't if it's going to deform  then and it can't handle this force it's going to hand them off to something that can handle them and so that's that model is being looked at just make sure that that's being handled correctly so i i don't know the answer that yet pat but i do know we're going to check and see that on how much movement actually occurred and where those forces get distributed to who's who's carrying what so we're going to completely dissect that whole area and see what's happening yes  good changes to go from oh well now you bring up a very interesting point because the nest of course said it was fire right and so yet there has not been any code changes as a result of it and it's the fifteen years so if it was a fire problem it seems that there's some responsibility on the part to make sure that we as structural engineers are are not doing something that could lead to another one so that's a big that's a big concern i've got so either it is a fire or it's not a fire if it's a fire then let's get the code changes made if it's not a fire then let's move on and say ok let's look at other things that could have produced this problem so there's a lot of issues regarding that and that's a lot of why this professional group which are structural engineers and architects believe that this needs to be examined and come to come to the truth of whatever really the best they can get and evaluation so whether not not really because this is an investigation the people that of course designed it had to be you know and what i thought when i first got involved in this were you working for this not for profit corporation eighty nine report to doesn't it doesn't matter but i think i think if they were they would be it would be helpful i thought when i got started i thought well you know it would be wonderful to go to the structural engineer and and and say share with me everything you were thinking about at the time you know nobody and far as i know nobody has argued that the building i came down because of a design problem it came down because of this issue so why would they want to share this but the stuff is really closed i mean it's trying to get anything from anybody and i guess you know and it's fifteen years later so some of these people are not as young as i was at the time read much about this intentionally yet i'm going to i'm going to start open the books once we have concluded everything and then test test all of that against everything i read but it's my understanding that the seven one and two were designed to be hit by a plane with a factor safety three but not the precise plane that got hit by so you know you can read all kinds of stuff about these buildings if you want to entertain yourself plenty of plenty of ideas out there so i just happen to know that i just don't read it headlines or there might even hear about it tonight who knows so anything else anybody well thank you for giving me the opportunity to come and speak with you was a chain of events into the building more like there right and you know i contacted me and he said listen i'm not an engineer but i've been working on steel buildings all my life and now retired and he said important to kind of i don't see any smoke or debris cloud coming out of the bottom and we know that's true we're just like somebody just pulled over you know and take a look at the fires too in the side of the building they were not professionals in our business couldn't believe what they saw and also hear you saying like you say there's a problem in here somewhere by that i mean it could bother someone else right we need to find it and get this resolved practically