welcome very much to conversation their guest server this program is a dear friend of mine from way up we've been together nine thousand six hundred and ninety six we've known each other that long a long long trailer winding back into the past of which particularly history and politics and he's a major voice for helping students he's involved with the city university and he's a aide to major scholar written on  right and i'm really happy you're going to let me play a little tape that i wanted to play that is a fifteen minute thing is that ted talk ok that be down in there while you're the boss well but i don't know well anyway i got th strange so i think you have tendency to be a little bit you know i keep my ear you're not most of the ground yeah you know you well ok yeah you don't fly wild like marta like i do and i have to deal with students who have a lot of problems because of the economic and social situation of this country right right in in her gets on to getting word right right right ok after saying i've got to say that's a sense of justice for that i thank you very much and for your work thank you so but it was quite a little time here we'll get to that tape will play a little bit later and i appreciate your allowing me to play a tape that's a little bit out of sync with what normally we do everything but a lot going on and so forth syria all this kind of thing and everything what's the trend now that we've got mr president trump in the helm and everything like that what is your what's your overall thought for the republic or for the country this april th to two thousand and seventy well it's not a it's not a healthy picture ok yeah yeah i mean this is the st presidents and in the history of the country who has no political or military experience as truth and he promised a lot enough people believed  lot bernie sanders promised a lot that's why he got eighty four percent of the primary vote from people under the age of thirty who vote in the democratic primary do you think if he had been the lot of talk about foreign policy but that's not what trump said he was going to do a lot of people i know the majority the majority of whites voted for trump and the majority of white women voted for trump that's what needs explanation that most people see and after he got the nomination they started to go after him well the things that were going after him people living glass houses shouldn't throw stones hillary is married to a guy who was almost impeached yeah for sexual impropriety and lying and was not allowed to speak should i say address as a lawyer the supreme court because of what he did ok chief advisor was married to anthony weiner you know and who he had disgraced himself and he had a lot of sexual problems and his chief advisor is very close to the saudis and the clinton foundation got twenty five million dollars from saudi arabia thirteen million dollars from morocco and in fact a total of sixty million dollars at least from the various emirates there's a lot of corruption i would say wouldn't you know i would say the historical think forty five dollars half of everything produced on the planet was produced within this country yeah now it's only about fifteen percent more what the companies have done thanks to the new technology is outsourced have outsourcing so you have downsizing of american jobs elimination of american work workers from the from full paying jobs her husband bill clinton william jefferson clinton put forward nafta which all the presidents of the time supported in the famous or infamous depending upon your perspective news conference on september th one thousand nine hundred and three yeah and we said i wouldn't sign this except if it didn't mean full time jobs with full benefits for the american people and then as a consequence of this north american free trade agreement mexico will become a st rank country well everything he's said and everything they agreed with because they were clinton would have been a pretty bad well i wonder what people would have been deluded into thinking that she was going to do something qualitatively different with it now that it's a thing about qualitatively different has there ever been a process i mean the whole historical you're a the human experience and if you don't know your history you're condemned to repeat it it's writing which is the last phrase others have said i'm the st to say what i just said yeah ok that's good i don't know  if you're if you're ever going if you have a just distribution of goods you will have justice if you don't have a just distribution although it's well if you allow the corporations and the very rich to have offshore accounts education system to the action or health care system better than any in latin america despite having this ferocious embargo and terrorism directed against it yeah ok but i guess  every historically or something i just that's what i'm thinking i just oracle is a many splendored thing if you're thinking particularly universally then you would want to have a system where just down for all not just a few latin america that has the most that has the most justice economic justice and social justice you think that well i don't think that we have the statistics in the united nations they also have the least carbon footprint per capita of any nation on the planet and that was the world wildlife fund study done in two thousand and ten but the leading nation of the world in geopolitical terms and everything is the united states of america well politically it population canada also provides free health care now but the germany provides free health care and so does cuba and germany and cuba both pay for all higher education of their students all the money here is going for war and of it in terms of just blatantly not just as it could be in terms of the capability to make it just but for some reason is dork there otherwise it never has been just so there's no sense in saying that you're going to have a universal justice or is it a shimmer or something never can be is just a thought that never you can never have real justice because you are you have to have injustice in order for the system economically to work you have to have slaves at sensually where we have wage slavery and wage slaves and now we have students we're in debt slavery there's more student debt than there is credit card debt it's always been no it's not always there ever been a moment in history when about the whole system there was still slavery there was still all of those kind of ugly things that was going on even as some people prospered and things grew and yet enry ford factories turned out and all that it was material progress was of the outcome of the st world war was that st world war built upon the sec no country sacrifice so little and gain so much from the two world wars as the united states that accounts for the difference anyway he's got a he's got this chart and it's something something or thing i mean it's just i'm really amazed at everything to where it used to be there for a year or two ago we used to say there was a one hundred and twenty eight people or something like that then it got down to twenty eight people now it's down to eight people in the world the well and you've got a vacuum in eight there wealth of eight people in eighty individual people in the world is equal to the wealth material wealth and advantage in terms of material understanding of the things to half the population of the world well that's what happened so that is not a system that is beneficial in a in a maximal sense you know the whole lot is very destructive to the environment yeah right yeah it can be and you know under the democrats you put in brokers for the corporations under trump you put in the actual corporate heads so there's not much difference in the policy the actual policy the qualit difference in the rhetoric remember obama deported two million seven hundred thousand immigrants on the horrible conditions the media did not give play to that they're giving play to trump's deportations yeah right yeah yeah yeah yeah  right and he also it trumped it was a phenomenon he really is a phenomena in terms of being able to utilize the media because we're talking about a b c and he had a lot of practice with his shows well the apprentice well you know what i'm trying to get at in a certain sense is he was ahead of everybody else in terms of the media he got elected and ran and took over this country and the consciousness of it the leadership of the world by tweet well only because of that only because we have a unique we have the uniquely exceptional electoral college don't forget that hillary clinton got three million more popular vote and i know that if this w anything resembling indirect democracy do away with that too we have a dwelling exam a country had their chance in two thousand they control the congress they control the presidency but the democrats are part of the game i'm sorry not in two thousand the point is they could have done something about it in two thousand it wasn't done instead of when you said because bush won in the electoral college as well now you lost like he lost gore lost five hundred and sixty zero votes to bush  anyway so there's never been my point being is like if you look at it biologically or something like that there are roughly in eyes i understand i'm not sure because you know me i'm interested in everything and i'm not interested in any one particular view or anything like that but i mean should never think so that's a lot to be interest from i'm interested in if there's no justice no peace no it's why this is a very violence and i know justice no peace and you notice there's not any real lasting peace whether or not there can be is another issue i just said if you distribute goods and ownership equitably there won't be a problem yeah whenever we get close to that there's a lot more peace there are stability i was thinking in terms of things from from in from biology and so forth and like a human organism i'm not exactly sure but it's pretty close on i think there's something like in a human organism there's something like  history is it ever possible that we could have a world of real honest to god for all justice for all i think by our documents although i want to read we do others think because we have the technological capacity to wipe out the world isn't that amazing we haven't had that only in our lifetime when you and i were born well me anyway i'm over you know but anyway when i was born it was not that capacity they could or they tried in a nd world war to kill each other as best they possibly could they were remote didn't at that level to kill right of course ok but now they're not amazing we finally got the point where we can kill every single human being apparently scientifically valid datable sure was that proud you know it's not it's not it's psychological progress is there anything you can in quite the technological progress in the military is fair with with social progress you know a six thousand and sixty percent of sixty over sixty five percent got a pie chart like this you know sixty have the includes they've got to make their weapons into capability the united states has eighty thousand eight hundred military bases all over the planet yeah all over the russians have a handful yeah that's it so it's clear who's trying to rule the world and who isn't no ok i just thought i did i didn't change my name i could pass but i didn't change my mind i was just saying that there was for the ones who really are responsible for setting up the st empire go fuck it she's my language world they set it up white anglo saxon proud as well because the english were an island you know and england are an island so they and since we're not seventy one percent of the world is water they developed a navy which allowed them to establish made any progress up the line or everything like that we've got all kinds of things now one of the things you've got is you've got water almost everybody now has clean water they turn the tap but except in flint and other places well that's an are the russians are calling are the russians are cutting their military budget while the americans are increasing their hours because americans want boots on the ground when they are larry leader of the russians are now they have invested in their nuclear so if somebody tries to start a nuclear war the russians are in a much better position having ten times owns than the united states i think we would be decimated i would to a greater extent than russia we're going to be exact i really believe it's twelve whatever  yet all these other things in a members got the biggest army can go it the other guy in the head and set up something and call themselves just and then they set up their thing and now it was reunited state has done that well the united states in the nd world war spent more time securing oil but the problem is that by the time they got around to dealing with hitler the red armies had liberated auschwitz eastern europe and took over half of their germany right so it was always a tremendous gross miscalculation on the part of the power structure because they didn't believe that the inferior slavs would lose to the superior to toms which was always their mentality i know that you're talking about the brought are you talking about now na n na let's get specify didn't ask say about the unraveling anglo american imperial project ok and then the eight hundred and ninety nine chamberlain jealous of chamberlain the father of neville chamberlain proposed to the germans lets the two great transatlantic branches of the anglo saxon race yeah together with the two times yeah and you know what von bulow who was the foreign minister yeah but the press said no the germans charted their own course as a con and they went for the oil because they had allies in bulk area romania and i'm sorry bull garia austria hungary and the ottoman empire the missing link was either romania or serbia  yeah difference between kennedy who was assassinated and the other president who didn't dare do that and that's part of the history james joyce had that was a is a nightmare the injustices from which were attempting to awaken mike the question is well certainly now ireland was more industrial than england by the time the brits got through with the irish ireland was in worse shape in the forty's than haiti is today and in the us he's an ok example all of the so the population of the forty's when the british interested in vague generalities i am and not what i'm not i'm not in truth so i when i read joyce i want to read his metaphorical ok ition ok but when i analyze history i want to deal with facts on the ground  you're right you're absolutely right they're history and that but it's also a matter of the technological sanction of mankind's capability and in that vein what's going on in terms of the futures we're going to look ahead fifty years or something the major thing  different from the historical context within which all of these stories of injustice is a been there and there was a there was a ted talk that we said we could bring into this program and if you could put a good that's a talk talking about x and what is the expansion and it's all coming out of the major google and i think more important more important is what you said at the outset that eight people control the wealth of half the world yeah right but that's important that our education what i've said on the mentally more important than what a guy talking about the effect of information technology on the world scene if we can get it to go that period of time most of our life is spent working and we've been working for tens of thousands of years doing different jobs and we do those different jobs so much that they become us in fact when someone asks you hate mary what do you do she says well i do this so much so that even jesus father's known as joseph the car also dilatory we've become known by the things we're doing even though this is a job and we're really only doing it to pay the bills for the most part that's why we're forced to do this kind of work so somehow we become known by it but what happens when it goes away what happens if humans are obsolete in the next fifty years for the kinds of jobs that we've always done we're all this new technology that's coming along changes what we would do every day so st of all what would we do we sit home and watch t v all day i hope not and number two how do we define ourselves because we've been used to defining ourselves since the beginning of time as what we do and that's a big change now i st started thinking about this way back in ninety seven dollars i ran a program a big project for general magic about one hundred million dollar read me my e mail list you have e mail from frank instructor international high school the idea was truly to replace what we knew as the assistance that time and some of that technology has come along but regardless of what came along and didn't come along the big learning we took from that is that people began to treat that machine like mary which was we called her we called her mary and so people called her mary so actually talked to mary they said all kinds of obscene things to mary and that's what they did and this was a very interesting experiment they want and it's worth a lot of horsepower at that time that's me standing in the operations center that time there were dozens and dozens of rows and thousands of computers to for a dollar and not only that the transit price the the cost of driving data of getting data to us continues to drive downward it continues to move downward then i'm going one hundred and seventy from free and the cost of computing has continued to drive towards zero from a trillion dollars to a trillionth of a penny for a one million instructions per nd now all of that adds up to the fact that on our desktop today we can have a computer that is somewhere between the intelligence of a monkey and a human on our desktop for two or three hundred dollars and that's not all we've made great strides in showing that the biggest computers in the world can actually be way smarter than humans it was back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven that the st computer beat the grand chess champion of the world and it was only three years ago that watson won against the grand champions of jeopardy and this was truly a turning point because of the natural language understanding that had to be embedded in that computer system that's what was hard and we finally broke that code in two thousand and eleven that's already three years ago so the tipping point is in the year but it's actually here in the past when we looked to outsource labor and to drive down the cost of goods we would go further and further away from the united states and eventually went to china all of our goods are are made in china many of our goods are made in china today however just in the last two or three years the tipping point has occurred in china where now robotics and automation are cheaper than the average chinese factory worker wage that's a real issue that's a real issue because there's no further to go so what happens is the four hundred thousand people working on your i phones today might be forty thousand just a few years from now and in fact why even make it over there you can make it here because if it's all robotics the cost is the same and that's a huge tipping point we've never seen that point before by the way we saw the one million dollars robot here's a twenty five thousand dollar robot it does much more than the one million dollars robot did and with a simple software upgrade doubled its capacity in one year and you double your capacity with a software upgrade in a year i can't this is faster than any human can do the job and a pays for itself in one year and after that it's free for the next twenty one dollars human can run dozens of these things his name is baxter by the way so now we're reaching a tipping point where the technology as a whole computer sensors robotics and communication are faster smarter more reliable than humans already today they'll work all the time far less expensively and they're factual they don't lie and they don't yes we can break down the end of human work into three categories now soon and fifty years from now now soon fifty years from now and i'm going to pose the fact in my mind that in fact all of the jobs go away within the next fifty years and this is happening already over the last twenty years we've seen routine occupations had downhill as a percentage of our workforce so more of our work forces is working in more complex outlook and opportunities that are using our minds  more here's an example of restaurant tablets many of you have already probably run into this said at your favorite restaurant and what happens is this reduces labor by forty percent you can place your order and you can pay for your order right there and you don't have to talk to anyone and it works it's amazing not only that the customers are happier and the order accuracy is one hundred percent now here's the how butler is now at a loft hotels very very interesting because this will deliver warm through your room at your beck and call can you imagine what happens when you mix the towel bottler with what's going on in restaurants and now it's the food dollar and now the cost of labor goes to zero percent as you don't need a waiter or waitress and quite likely the patrons are even happier someone's got to cook or do they this is the automatic hamburger machine it makes burgers for ninety percent lower cost than the way we make them today and faster this is the home kitchen robot it cooks in the kitchen for you and delivers meals to you however it's very expensive it's only in a lab but this is what's coming over the next ten to twenty years we will have a robot in our kitchen it'll be a few one thousand dollars it'll make your meals for you and it'll also clean well it's not busy making meals and also order the food that morning for delivery fresh and when you come home at six your meal will be there yet and by the and that's not the only drones here's a company that's working on romo ships because they figured out that a ship without a captain that might be drinking or might be asleep at the wheel is much safer than one with one an airline pilot we have g p s we  technology we can get the ship from point a to point b it's not that hard folks so now we're going up the chain and further up the chain and we say can doctors be replaced by computers well computers have up to the minute millions of peer reviewed papers c d c info data from other computer based docs data from social media data from blood everything else at its disposal hundreds of millions or billions of papers and data and your doctor can store maybe a few one hundred pages in his or her head so yes i hope that this happens because that's the person i want to go to and let me take it a step further human genome sequencing has also fallen from thousands of dollars to it's going to be a dollar ok in the next few years and at those rates we will know more about our self and our being and how we were born and how we came to be than we've ever known and a doctor wouldn't know what most of the time to do with all that data so we're going to actually create more data about our bodies that need to go the computers and need to go to systems that can analyze it and help us determine how we can live a better life and how we can share our sickness but of course there are surgeons in the law we'd be surgeons well way ok hang on maybe chief surgical robot you may have seen that this is actually run by doctors today doctors put their hands in some gloves and manipulate the robot and then that's what makes the robot operate on your money it's a good diagnostician i'm sorry why do i want doctors hands on reading this great delicate instrument why wouldn't i want a computer system that can be programmed with all the knowledge of humanity that can make a split nd decisions literally nano nd decisions on hundreds thousands or millions of outcomes and take the right one and by the way there are some four hundred thousand people that are that die every year in this country because of medical mistakes that's ten times the number that die in automobile accidents we can eliminate that but let's go further we've all seen the self driving car you've seen this on on t v you might have seen one drive by they're really amazing but the impact o society is much greater than you think because technically we just need ninety two percent fewer vehicles because your vehicle is parked ninety two percent of the time and if you can drive the cost of getting from point a to point b down below you owning a vehicle there's no reason to own a vehicle one will show up autonomously they'll be no one there will be no one driving it will be no wheel in the car you get in and it takes you to point b and this is what happens the new york city taxi fares per mile once you automate they go from three dollars a mile to about  cents a mile and that reduces traffic accidents everywhere in the world by ninety five percent and it's so safe that i predict that human driving will be outlawed because who would want a human behind the wheel in fact there shouldn't be a wheel think about it now here's an interesting things humanoid robotics companies the biggest and best most advanced in the world almost a dozen have been bought by google in the last two years right what do they know that you don't know or rather what do they know that you didn't know until now so the question in the future isn't about the perfect job but salary and benefits and job security close to home and everything else that's actually the wrong question we're going to give our kids go to school let learn so that you get the perfect job there won't be a perfect job it's the wrong question and i think bucky fuller said it best we should do away with the absolute specious notion that everybody has to earn a living we keep inventing jobs because of the false idea that everybody has to be employed in some kind of drudgery you ever feel that way and the true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them that they had it on a living so that brings us really sort of full circle and and suggest to i think all of us that in fact jobs are good they were a necessary evil when in fact they were a form of human bondage we were enslaved and have been enslaved and continue to be enslaved by the fact we have to get up with to go to work we have to produce something and then we have to come home and we're only producing something so that we can put food on our table yet that what if that goes away what if this is the most incredible human opportunity that we've ever seen that we finally get to ponder why are we here i don't mean why are you here listening to me i mean why are we here if we weren't here to make widgets to go to some whatever job it is we're much more capable than that and that brings us to my final point which is this is an opportunity that we have that we've been granted if we choose to take it to the next renaissance just as in the st renaissance it was an amazing awakening of the human spirit where people look to the heavens and pondered what it meant people looked at the heavens and pondered what it would be and how one would travel to the stars and beyond people opened up their hearts they opened up their minds they created art ants use it and here this is our possibly one chance that we will be free to do exactly the same thing that's the end ok that's that and i think that that's more prescient and the direction that we're going and is never mentioned because they all of our political thinking is based on a labor theory of value our important it is for human beings to produce the things from the raw materials and so forth and that's what motive that's what characterizes all of the talk about the institutions in the structure we're going to heritage out of history but we may be at a time not only as you said able to destroy the whole species if we continue along the line of trying to use the outdated principles that have come out of history rather than take advantage of the capabilities for liberating everybody in a systems kind of way which seems not to be bothered to be considered by all of our political or even our intellectual leadership they don't even think about the possibilities of what might actually be able to be realized in a living real way to liberate everybody there may be an opportunity to everybody can be liberated to realize their own inner given capability and it's never been possible you could only do it by hitting the other guy on the head and forcing him to do it or all of the coersion methods including all of our ins to do regional system from prisons to schools and so forth so that's why i think it's worth thinking about because i think it coming in x or oh blee it's not going to stop and so i just thought it's worthwhile talking about in terms of the human condition where do you think tony what are going to do with all those humans that gone after all bakley the question the humans are going to be free to be not wait for how they're going to eat well well ok how are they going to  how do you think they're going to you tell me her big fan of this guy no no no i it's the idea that has to be brought up and now these talks are coming you go you don't you don't bother with television i think you know i don't have a characteristic of practice all the political thinking of the establishment and so forth there's no but where is the political will to apply this to the whole society well we're going to help begin to we're going to help begin to engender that within the law and i don't see that among the we're going to try and engender that in that people are watching this program for one thing to get out of those out of the slavishly acceptance of the day but they don't have any choice they have to pay the rent people live in new york because manhattan cable of course so you have a rent ok well then that's a good thing to bring up and bring you bring in how are people going tenants around the building that's the thing operative above everything i belong to the park slope food co op even though i don't live in brooklyn because that's where i got the most green signatures gave trump tons of free publicity before he received the nomination because they were favoring the democrats and they said the only person that we are sure that hillary can beat would be donald trump they miscalculated well there was the that's what i'm trying to say no you didn't say that well you're saying twitter twitter had nothing to do with it that's the way he bypassed the whole damned establishment he went right straight  sure to be would be donald you know well he had no vision she offered no program there was anything sanders offered a program that's why he got forty five percent of the democratic primary voters and that's why he was talking about socialism because the current generation sense but i think it does i think it does that's what they said about galileo and all that kind of always because people are all in viewed with the ideas that are coming and they've made good with anderson talked about socialism and it appealed because  eighty four percent of the people under thirty who voted in the democratic primary voted for bernie sanders for hillary but bernie sanders or not only klein and all the amy goodman and the left and all that kind of stuff  the current generation is facing a jobless future what you know which student loans that nothing's being done about that that's right and nothing's being done about anything so there will be an uprising debit some things but there will be an economic theory for one thing the marxist or the marxism socialist or that they have a great faith in the labor theory of value people's contribution to the production of goods and the server and the  last china where is the political will all our jobs are being exported any jobs are being exported the job putting people on welfare the idea of the job is becoming a a non sequitur it doesn't work you can't distribute buying power effectively to the masses of the people we have a capability of providing for the people in a way that is just absolutely renaissance is he says but they don't have a way and mr caddy among others is that's exactly what he's saying the problem is they get to get this all this capability but they don't have a way of getting effective buying power or demand into the population to clear the market of the good things that can be done w practically no systems thinking going on anywhere it's all special so then it's hopeless hopeless and all this guy offers something they don't bring well offering an understanding of something that's worthy of consideration by our intellectual leader he gives and they're going to lead and it's going to go anyway it's stopping it's going and you did you notice all those things are being gobbled up by google and the people that are in the information environment that's fine yeah people still have to eat and pay the rent  that you gave me yeah yeah you can go on like that pleasure we're coming back again tomorrow thank you to josie and producer can