hello and welcome to pathways and jenny heart join your host and as you know my show is about ordinary people who do extraordinary things the pennies pipeline is planning to dig a hundred eighteen mile trench through central new jersey on to many residents properties and farms even for those who have preserved their farms and farmland preservation this struggle to me is a struggle of david and goliath pennies  billions of dollars to push this through the activist land holders only their rights or do they say this is a fight for farmers rights to protect their crops this is a fight against environmental destruction this is a fight for water safety and this is a fight on occasion for human lives today i want to introduce another member of the fight a lawyer from stark and stark who will teach us about the legal rights of the property owners as it pertains to penny's pipeline and what people need to do legally to protect their land and their lives i'm happy to introduce tim di me thank you so much for coming on i want to start by saying i did a little research and i read a little bit about the pipeline and in my research the bull letters on the top of the website were we will bring gas two hundred ten to central new jersey at much lower prices in fact we could have saved in two thousand and thirteen as much as two hundred million dollars if we had had a chance to put the pipeline in number two we will bring jobs to this area to this area the area that's being impacted by the pipeline and we will be meeting regulations of both environmental and and and and what the community needs so i have my first question is is that all true well i i don't think all that's true i think part of that is the spin of the pipeline company as they present their case down in washington to try to get approval for the pipeline for example on the environmental you can follow environmental laws that doesn't mean that when you clear cut and remove a whole bunch of trees where you dig under a stream to build your pipeline that that streams going to come back to the way it was in those trees are going to come back to way they were you have various organizations throughout new jersey that spent a substantial amount of money trying to preserve strategic areas to keep it pristine now pipelines are going right through those properties oftentimes to just dig it out with a big trench and try to replace it and that is what i don't i want to wait do you address each one but i can't help but saying that's the first thing that i've read about according to halt the group that came on the woman who came on the show represents hall jacqueline evans and she said that when you go under streams especially in hundreds and where those streams are actually the water people are drinking you hit big chunks of rock and sometimes there's arsenic that's released out of this rock and can get released into the water table so how from a legal standpoint why are they allowed to pollute the water table because they'll dispute that they're pretty polluting the water table so they will come in with their experts and say no that's not the case and then the property owners and people opposing it have to produce their own experts to say no that's not true the same thing with wells if i have a well and it's coming near my well and they have to blast to get through some rock that could cause problems and also potentially leeching into the well so as you go through it's not a simple process we're just going to dig a little trench and put a pipe  you're going on to waterways you have things that could be disturbed under the soil you have wells you have septic systems you have pristine farmland and streams that you're not sure if that's going to be replaced the way it was before and it's very simple you could go out and physically look at where pipelines have been put in and get a picture before and after and make your own conclusion and it's not pretty often times so what about what about jobs they claimed this is going to bring millions i don't know thousands of jobs now is that the areas where the destruction is taking place or is that jobs back you know in ohio or are these people are coming in from well first of all those jobs are short term so if you come in and build the pipeline once that's done there are no permanent jobs so it's short term because i or everyone is looking for a job in one hundred ten and yes if they have jobs if they wanted to they could hire local people and say we will we will commit to hiring local people to build this pipeline local contractors people looking for work but they do not do that they do not commit so oftentimes they'll big proof crews in from other areas to bring them in to build a pipeline so yes there may be jobs but that doesn't mean those jobs are for residents of the state of new jersey or pennsylvania you know what about the gas prices being lower they've claimed that by bringing in this gas line it makes the gas less for the homeowners e i question is that true because i understood that the gas was exported to europe so i would think it would be cheaper why would that affect if the gas is being x ported to europe how does that impact central new jersey's gas prices well i don't think penny conceded it's been exported but i think it's pretty clear based upon the route and where it's connecting up and where it's going to pour it is for experts is going for the port and i believe that the industry is somewhat overbuilt right now so it is you know i think there's a of pipelines that have been built and there is a lot of there has been a lot of demand for gas as the oil prices increase but right now the industry appears to be overbuilt i don't know if adding this additional gas is going to do anything to the price well i just thought of oil we have too much oil that the prize of oil went down is that enough to keep us and that's what i was gas the gas prices would go down yes the same thing it's supply and demand so you know you have it it's not just a matter of the supply and demand in oil industry it's a little different because we deal with foreign factors but here i don't think this really the pennies pipeline piping gas from pennsylvania into new jersey for export is going to have any impact at all on the price of gas so homeowners prices of gas are not going to be lower if this were completed in two thousand and seventeen the jobs that they are claiming the people who are suffering will be able to have access to are not necessarily at least in the history of the pennies pipeline ever happened now let's talk about the regulations that they claim they're following environmental you've already brought that up we'll talk about that a little bit more what about the regulation who regulates them well they they do get regulated and they can still follow the environmental regulations in still create harm they can go through wetlands and get approval for that but that doesn't mean it's not going to cause harm you can get a permit in approvals to take down a whole bunch of trees that doesn't mean it doesn't cause any harm so yes they can get approval for their route clear cut trees maybe replace some of them and say i followed all the environmental rules that doesn't mean they're not cause and harm to the environment those are two separate things i thought that's what the environmental protection agency is for is to protect the environment and create regulation that doesn't disturb the environment it's always a balancing act so you have when you come for with approvals for any project you have environmental people looking to protect the environment say don't build anywhere keep  and then the other side you may have builders saying we want to build everywhere the government and a lot of these regulatory agencies have to do a balancing act of what's in the best interest of the public and that's what's going on down in washington right now is fur as a fertile energy regulation commish commission has to decide whether this is in the best interests of the people of new jersey in the public and in general to give what's called a certificate of need is this good have they proven the case that this is a necessary is this pipeline necessary well if you look at the overall capacity and where this is go and i mean there's a lot of pipelines already in place a lot of pipelines are already in place on one hand and you say we're going through hundred in mercer county that are really still have a lot of farmland preserved areas a lot of wetland lust and you have to balance i'm just interested in the we won't take too long with the first preservation of farmland you you get less for your land and you know that going forward generations will be protected no one will be able to develop your farmland so penney's comes in and puts pipelines that according to my other guests you can have your animals on because there's as to be a right to get n s b easement you destroy a lot of farming potential because of the heavy equipment you pollute the potentially the water because of the release of rock that can turn arsenic into the water system so what kind of protection is that farmland preservation isn't that a legal document that you sign my land is protected and that's where the the power of eminent domain comes in which once they have that power they're entitled to take the property including all the rights that are there for the owner a mortgage and an easeme explain to the viewers very simply what does that mean in terms of the pipelines rights to the power of eminent domain so under federal law if the fir provides a certificate of need in essence approves the pipeline that gives the pipeline company the power of eminent domain now eminent domain is in the united states constitution i think most people are are generally aware of they the government can come in and take property to build a school to build a road to build a park and the majority of people understand why we need that well the reason is it's for the public it with a public use here you say to yourself well the you can have all different connecting to go connections to go to different areas so sometimes you'll have a pipeline and they could branch off to go to another area and potentially that could happen as of now i don't believe that's the case but with the power of  domain the supreme court over the years has watered that down to a public benefit and you also have certain federal laws that will give the power of eminent domain to a private company like penny east for the better good of society so right now people are challenging the pipeline saying not a lot of jobs you're ready overbuilt it's not going to lower the prices you're doing it for export what's the public good to loot our land on this side what what's the great benefit to the public to enable you to use the power of eminent domain that's a very strong power you're taken people's property you're invading their space and people get very emotional and it's important even if they have to pay just because they pay doesn't mean they should be able to do it so penney's will have to pay you if they take your property so if they say i want to put a pipeline in your backyard they have to acquire an easement they have to pay you for that now if they go through preserve farm land they're going to say well that's not very valuable you can't build on that that's cheap property some are put it right through this preserve farm because that's cheap and you have preserved property right now one hundred mercer county where they are going through and that's a big problem so this just compensation is that what you're referring to yes so the just compensation is determined by the pipeline well they will make an offer and then you have a right to challenge that so the so the penny east would come in and let's assume it's going to be in the back part of your property and they're going to run a pipeline through the back part they're going to say well we're going to acquire an easement which gives us the right to put it in and we think it's worth ten thousand dollars and i want this thing for that portion of your probably well they say then there's no and it doesn't decrease the value of your home because once it's in and i plant the grass it has no impact on your house no one really cares real estate agents agree with real stages don't agree with you now the pipeline company will say well i'm going to show you homes one home with a pipeline the backyard one home across street with no pipeline and i'll show that they sell for the same price because of pipelines been in the ground thirty years no one even knows it's there that'll be their evidence if you were to try to sell your home with the pipeline coming through or your backyard dug up that's a huge problem because if you were going to go buy a home and you had children and you drive up and you see all these signs and a pipelines going in the backyard and you're not sure exactly how close of a house it's going to be how close is allowed to be could be as close as it wants to be there's no restrictions so we've represented clients of pipeline cases where they're very close and sometimes very far away at the pens on the route and that's very problematic what happens that this illegal in this pipeline well that lights a cigarette you have a problem we have had gas explosions we had edison edison in ninety four edison is a big one and there you know and that's deaf for those living in the house yes that's why i mention human lives are a big part of th it's and the problem is when you go fall where they don't they don't pay for fear factor they don't pay for any of those emotional issues it's what can you prove in a court of law so if they make you an offer for ten thousand dollars you do not have to take that then they have to file a complaint to use the power of eminent domain to take it and you have an opportunity to present your side of the case and that's really what we do we do a lot of we to challenge the taking or will present the case either to  judge or a jury it will put our own expert on improve our own case let me know why that is done yet is about a strategy property owners that are watching that are in this area and afraid that the pipeline is coming through their property you said the first thing they do is i think they do surveys yes so do you just say come on and do the survey but i'm against you or do you have any right to say you can't come on my property yes this is your private property i thought it was federally bac they have to go to court and get an order so if they come on if they don't have a court order if they don't produce a quarter for you to you they have absolutely no right to stop by you guys hearing this under any circumstances the attorneys speaking here now that you're pitch forks and stand there and say no you're not allowed you could also send them a letter saying in case you anticipate on asking for my approval the answer is no stay off my property can send them a letter ahead of time to say no now normally they'll come on in ask you to sign an agreement you can say no if you show up and there's somebody in your backyard serving you call the police like any other private property owner would do and say i have a trespasser please come out if you know my home and you find steaks or anything else without your approval call the police report the trespass but if they fly overhead an airplane that's more problematic if they do that they do so what happens is about seventy percent of the people have said stay off my property you can't survey and what that means is that penny says haven't a problem completing their application down it fur they don't have complete environmental studies they don't have complete surveys so what they could do is they can stand in the public area look at your property  use google maps these all sorts of different things but they have been flying in helicopters they can use drones if they wanted to i haven't heard that but they have had helicopters hovering over property while they're trying to do helicopters they can use drones if they wanted to i haven't heard that but they have had helicopters hovering over property while they're trying to do serve a from the air now they may of approval that may be public areas but that doesn't mean it's not a nuisance so you can have a right to fly a plane but that doesn't mean you can fly it low back and forth over your neighbor's property twenty four hours is there a law that says you can't do well it's  the legal theory is a nuisance so you may have that word it's a nuisance it's a nuisance and but it has to rise to a certain level so if a plane flies by it's not a nuisance plane flies by four times a day i don't know plane flies by back and forth for six hours a day and at two o'clock in the morning and four o'clock in the morning yes that can rise to a level of a nuisance what other legal recourse what are the suggestions do you make for someone to stop the paperwork from being filed with for so why first you've mentioned the halt those when you people ban together and pool their resources and pool their knowledge and act together i think that's probably the best strategy many of these towns that are against that simply don't have the funds they can't go out and say we're going to bond for a million dollars and hire a whole bunch of experts to challenge it they don't have the resources man halt this is homeowners again active a lot of environmental groups riverkeeper individuals you can go on to many townships web sites i've been very impressed with with hopewell with del or township with kane with a lot of these minister palette he's have done a very good job of trying to assemble information and educate their people on what they can do because often times people think the if the minister pallet he passes a resolution saying we're against it that they're going to go in affirmatively fight penn for a living they know what they're doing they have their hired guns and they go down to for and try to put on a very good case that means on the property owner side they need very good people to put on a very good case and they need to pool their resources and tim i'm really interested they're saying there is a possibility of stopping this pipeline her as approved every pipeline up to now sooner or later they get out to through the property owners a win and i think this is one of those cases because it's going through a lot of protected areas it's going under the delaware river preserve farms wetlands woodlands for what reason and if they are going to listen if oil prices were high and this was going to service hundred in warren mercer county they really needed people are struggling economically you might scratch your head and say well ok maybe i disagree but i sort of get it here your plan with through a pipeline which what we all believe is to export an environmentally sensitive area why do we need it and there's an abundan environmental point of view is that as long as you stay away from alternative energy it's going to be expensive and until you throw yourself into it like other countries are doing in denmark and you know there are way that you're not going to ever put the energy into really really safe or energy and gas is was that transition between coal and maybe it's worth and we're in tough times right now as we come up come up to a presidential election on how forcibly we put these laws in place when oil and gas prices are down people start pressing gas prices people will buy the big cars if it's five dollars a gallon we will have until you know if three young children and they are they've grown up with recycling that's a way of life for them but they're used to it people in my generation had to go through that transition for them it's bad to throw recycling into the garbage versus an older person like myself as an sleaze they help train us but until we can get the mindset of why this is important i think a lot of people are going to be driven financially oh it doesn't hurt me therefore i'm ok if it cost me five dollars a gallon i'm going to find a car that gets forty miles per gallon that's a dollar fifty nine hundred my s u v and i think people need to be educated need to be committed but i agree with you that as we continue to make the fossil fools fuels available for everybody there's less of an incentive to really get in there and make the hard cuts maybe it's going to cost us more money a fight that you said earlier it is a fight that maybe we can stop maybe the government has approved too many pipelines firk has approved too many pipelines what are the chances of this pipeline b all to being stopped altogether i would say it's still a long shot but people can assume someone else is going to fight that fight they have to get involved to jo have to join in a lot of times people might hear a lawsuits filed or they might hear an objection was filed and leave it at that or they may go to a meeting i was in a meeting in kingwood and people got up and spoke and one of the most important things i think that came out of that meaning is you could go to a meeting and you can vent and you can say how bad it is but you just can't go home and get on with your life you have to get active and you get active in a variety of ways that you could be  camera sure i think well first you know there are in order for the fights to really be productive these organizations need to be funded so it's very important that you donate what you can and i know  some money but they need more to really put the fight on oftentimes need experts you need environmental people you need lawyers to get down there and second reach out to your congresspeople your senators and your congressmen and let them know where you they don't need this yet you don't need it you don't want nobody wants it but you really have to remind them of where they're going a lot of preserved environmentally protected area that's very important and that we don't need more pipe month and that we don't know where we don't read well enough that's that's the fight down infer says no jobs we need it lower prices all these wonderful things on the opposite side they're saying that's not true we don't need it and if we don't need it why are you going to allow the power of eminent domain a very power if you're takin her people's property it's a very serious thing short of a search by the police probably the most intrusive thing the government can do to you but i wonder why that legal argument itself isn't the most impactful that is supposed to be for public use and this is a i mean if somebody could prove this gas was being exported to europe and it wasn't even being used for public use and no one wanted it and gas prices are fine where they are then what would they have to prove eminent domain that's the fight that's happening  once they give that certificate of need it's not totally over but it's almost over because now they have the power of emmet name which means they can build in order to challenge that you need very good people that know what they're doing to lay out a case this is not the use public schools and highways and things that we need roads even you know certain cities that rehabilitation zones or they come in and try to you know get parts of the city going in a public private partnership those are all very good useful powers but they can't be abused now i'm going to have to stop or run out of time and i really appreciate you coming on the show so i think everyone knows now a little bit more about the legal aspects of this pipeline so thank you very much great thanks for happy i'm happy to be here blaze so powerful it literally melted nearby home to come around the bend and it looked like you were looking down into hell tonight police say a natural gas explosion in a pipeline sparked it all this morning creating a massive ball of fire that to some felt like an earthquake take a look before a greenfield with a home nestled among three now the trees are bare sticks and the house is rubble we can feel the heat her house and we'll have a mile down this road one man was seriously burned when he tried running away from the fire he's in the hospital tonight and told police the fire ball sounded more like a tornado