able to get together for those programs good to be your new york is going to be is one of the better people on the whole planet i'm partial if you don't mind but i mean he's a really good guy really smart and really kurt kerry has the strongest ethics and the strongest sense of social responsibility of anybody i know combined with a great ability to get things done which is very very good you don't have to you're very effective in everything but all that said let's just start at the beginning you're my son and we last let's see you you are now a social worker and you bridge to i remember when you were younger we were up in new paltz and so forth and i was teaching there and you were coming up and you did and you were very very always very very interested in broad subjects evolution and calculus and all these kind of things and then you went to berkeley you were let's say in the movie burglary i go to school in berkeley you moved to  these wonderful two reason they got the doctor out of the office and the seals swim right up to the dock and they do they do it's really gorgeous redwood trees and got the whole package there how did you happen to go to to there that is the interesting story santa cruz a good school and yeah yeah so i'm you know relation in dolphins i was very interested in dolphin yeah almost as an alternative to being like i was really disillusioned with humanity at that point i can understand and i added i had latched on to john lil from there and we did you idea that we were the babysitter yeah that's right but so danny who we were we come back that a minute but he was the kind of person who knew about every college that was out there even if he was he had stats memorized over a little bit you know wonky in that way and he said what are you looking funny how brilliant he was really funny i know i remember funny af funny i love our guy and then you had three guys and they were like mates you know yeah we were brothers yeah pretty much so he said what are you looking for in a college and i said well i want something where i can study dolphins i want something that's you know close to nature  story i want to hear about though he taught so he says what are you looking for so i said i want to be close to nature and i want to i want to be able to study marine biology the you were in your green by and i want to i prefer a place with no grades and i think you had a big influence on the way i thought about the role of grading in education when it's just because i'm so anti authoritarian yeah well we grew up over stories of you i ate of you drunk charlotte already and you managed as a professor to get around it by giving a right away and then the people could either trip on the great or not neighbor network george stoney yeah george i don't know if you ever did but he would have won more than anybody else as responsible for this institution yeah great guy filmmaker yeah and he was a filmmaker at knew how to work say what do i have to do to get and i'm here to get an a i got to get into business harvard business and i got to get in so i can make a lot of money and he said who was just so disquieting and i told him i had just given everybody an eight on the  our business is loving and there what happens my pleasure got filled with the smartest people on campus and they were all troublemakers smart troublemakers which i kind of like yes so i've probably infected you that yeah well thank you that was a good  university didn't have great yes oh yeah and danny right you know he took about ten seconds to think about it he said you should go to santa cruz wow really that's part of california's system yes yeah so you see on that i never i didn't you know there was an internet back then but i didn't write to them i didn't research them i just said ok that's a good idea and kick the other three musketeer was in california that summer with some other friends of ours living in berkeley yeah and i said i'll just go stay with them for a bit and set up to do you know find three fellows were on a trip in costa rica how long ago was there were i wasn't there danny went there when danny was there on a it was like a study abroad kind of yeah program and he was with a  wonderful really wonderful yeah and you know a very unscripted yeah community in a very unscripted form of mourning and memorializing someone who was starting with the when he died we came to this group of people came together for about two weeks with no map you know right land right and every moment was he was it was a good cultural the grading so you get a grade the you can get a certificate that lets you get into an institution and where you can make money it's all about put that in terms of education rather than and it's undercutting never mind i don't want to get  way over and over with not enough liberation and to create something new then you're here on it's an unhealthy system well it isn't isn't that different this takes all kinds i guess and everything but you know yeah i've never  n the educational system or it large but anyway that's all talk and so now you've got you've got it how did you get over into social work and everything so that was true family or something yeah the yeah right he was a good actor that the arts yeah and the things that really matter at no interest practically anymore it's all just how can i get some money seems to be the only thing that's motivating society which is unfortunate but anyway you got into it and i'm talking too much don't let me talk so how did you get into the work you do must talk about it it's really good work i know so because your act so any again oh danny so i came back after danny died i started reconnecting with the east coast and the new paltz area and i needed to find some work so i got a part time job in a homeless shelter for teenagers ok and within three hours of that st show you were a substitute counselor there and i said i found something here that i knew that this was breadcrumb on a path and you could help people that were in yeah yeah it was like like a service is like  a what you call therapy or some are not that relationship that's human yeah and important to people that are in a difficult situation my meds mentally or physically whatever yeah ok so you're in this generally family that have been you know for a variety of reasons that their circumstances have led to the fracturing or dissolution of the connections that we all really need family when you're talking about money dries  stride people i think what that is it's sort of a perverted version of needing to be connected and relevant within a context of humanity well those are within the relatives of the really important thing the humanity of it all is was really really important but in th short term what really matters as money i mean is material there scared it made the means of having material security or encouragement material security every bead like a house and you've got to make sure you have a place to live and they have a moat and i still think that's an elementary system read to get some sort of a way of making that available to whole lot of people that is not getting or not getting the benefits of the overall  it's but i think people are going to have to learn to live with the fact that they have the things they need as a given and then was it could be interesting thing is the things that get so short shrift not like the arts and the things that really matter or education even in the fullest sense of the word living a full life without having to be worried or about the material problems and what is the major problem of social this is social discord in into society if everybody had enough i mean we have such a capability to provide for everybody that we've never had or something so we need to begin anyway i think i get off the track where we often get you know one of our places that we go in this dialogue is often like i think that that's true that the material aspect of like new ideas new ways of making sure that we're all in the equation that people are taken care of at a basic level it's really important to me i also think there are and this is another thing that you know that there's the capability there but we're not we're not right actualizing it is that we need new ways of i think it's particularly at this time we need to put more energy into thinking about how we think habits of thought of perception of analysis of the individual and systemic critique you know and skill little skepticism yandex with optimism you know and i think that we're not having that laid out in terms of the infrastructure of the way the media presents issues where politicians operate the way businesses do or don't function so i think there's a bit of a dual thing with the systems have to be worked on but also the the habits and practices that the way that we use our our minds and our relationships have to be taken into account yeah you can give people money and they're still going to be caught in coming for for something beyond those outer directed goals that i have met motivated human behavior you know if i don't know or some way of doing it but if you just have a man  but we have enough technologically augmented capability like i was saying in the program earlier times there's a couple days ago kylie we got a technological we could provide housing for everybody  are the there we may be a coming into a time of abundance as opposed to a large system toys understanding of the relationship of humanity within the within the whole order which was basically scarce there was never know in the cave there was only uno eggs didn't feed one kid yet let the other one die or throughout the whole thing it was there was never enough so everybody had to fight for it in order to get basic substance sustenance and so forth and that then i'd is zero sum thinking in order for wonder when there's not enough essentially that's it there is not enough that's assumptions that have to be accepted at a level of a given like out of there's error there's error something but we're now coming to a time where there is in terms of capture the capability another no no but that's not that's something huge and ever mention is never mentioned that there is enough for all at the level of capability it is not there in the gravity it's always lags behind the capability the capabilities emerging you know we i think you're going to have to have people who can think like our artists or can think like free people rather than people who have to figure out how they can do all this outer directed thing and how they can maybe have the right to carry piece of bread or something for a place to live in and i don't think those those those kind of goals those things that motivate and agreed in the things that come best that's an extension of it but if everybody every i think they're going to just have a world where there's enough for everybody to have a the life of of i have human being which we've never had we're going to an evolutionary change i think and i don't know that's what i think and that we don't is never mentioned never brought up that there could ever be a condition of organization where there is enough and people don't have to think about the elementary thing they can hear it and now you've got it here you can be in touch with the whole damned world right you can be interested in so many different things so many things you can but you're doing it is somebody that isn't doing because they have to but because they want to there's a big difference between let's just say a woman a woman is making love because she wants to not because she has to or somebody is being nice because they have to for some exterior reason or all these external ideas judge they want to know seem to be so much in the realm now because everybody thinks there's not nearly enough and for one to have something least advantage among some people or you or something what is yeah i'm involved and thinking well since that st job i've stayed pretty focused on working with kids and families that are in or at risk of entering the child welfare system it's families for whom if you believe that things are socially constructed to a large degree and that the economics of you know the circumstances of these family's lives you know the accumulation of whether it's intergenerational trauma or poverty or or addiction or or mental illness whatever it is it's led to their family not having enough fabric to keep itself together to keep the kid safe then yeah some neglect or abus context and it's one of those things it's trying to get wiser each year and things are happening that are good but in a sense it's you know the there's this tension between making sure the kids are safe and also trying to keep families intact and there's been it's so those how you reconcile those two different mandates in sense for the child welfare system is really tricky and over the years there have been periods  where the kind of is i case is to remove kids and get them good parents just take them out you know to the that's a parent act and you take them out of the bad home with a bad parent and you give them a new home and then everything will be fine boy you did was never there people in the world aren't you yeah oh yeah yeah and then there's been other times where the the trend seeing the problems that can come when you just rip a kid out of their yeah kinship context and their family history even if there which is good but if you don't do that smartly kids end up going home because that feels nice and warm and fuzzy and then they end up you know sometimes have a tragic outcomes there so a lot of my work over the years when i was doing direct work and now more and you know in a management role has been trying to figure out how you create a vision that sensibly balances those things and is focused on creating processes that balance them so it's not a formula that one is right or one is wrong and you're not trying to figure out if it's a good you know and then and that means getting you know we're talking about comprehensive thinking and then you know that means having the vision that's up here really big philosophical evolutionary systemic and then also having  comprehensive or systems thinking you just i'm just thinking is you're just thinking about everything are and relating this to this and that to this and this but there are not one specialization which is good for a professional to take money from the system where you're going to is you really you have these systems that are funded by basically by taxes yeah that are designed to keep kids safe keep families together prepare communities right  the tax coffers as you know in this country a little thin and you know it's not what taxes are popular here and so you have this very very sometimes broken communities that have suffered intergenerational accumulation of these problems and you have very very limited resources to try to do something that is not just putting a band aid on it or or making a hasty you know trying to actually heal there's all kinds of other problems you're going to have even though you've got running water and you've got safety and you've got heat you've got all the basic necessities talking on a world scale not the the thing it's from a child development and and family here well being elemental security security is much bigger than money and money but it does not all get one most important thing to a developing child no not to a child no you know that we're all this so if you think about what we're designed what we would think of as abject poverty but i have those yeah yeah yeah those things be very very strong yeah yeah i know that's not going to lead to the those families don't have the same degree of suffering as somebody who is slightly more means but doesn't have the connections the love yeah yeah the empathy i guess they go no they have cope yeah right right right interdependence yeah you know healthy ecosystem back to the yeah you know where this all started talking about that natural patterns yeah those yes money money is a placeholder for security and money is also in this country a cult almost you know it's also the thing that motivates most human behavior yeah so you don't you don't be have a negative idea toward decker's that's the thing that motivates most behaves most sociological and real the a viewer i mean because you go to the grocery store in the mall in the in the cornflakes are there i mean somebody get somebody you have to have people doing things the system going well to provide for everybody so they have a role and i don't know so i think identity out of what they do be able to do and that's important i what you know and i'm one thing if you don't if you're doing it later corey you you do your own enjoy but i'm in a bit of a bubble and you're probably right about that being a predominant motivator but in the not for profit world yeah anybody who goes into my field for the money is kind of an idiot i mean there isn't money there so if people just were motivated by money they would not be choosing to work with this population you know it's a very a no no no i don't know  called love and you know feelings and there's all kinds of interesting things that don't matter what matters is the money you know that most people are not going into into the i don't not did i not get around to my higher context of the people we're working with a are working and some of our some of our employees where i work they're training was going through with the parents they're helping you know they they themselves had their children removed they've made it back into a place of stability they regained that connection that you know guardianship or you know their custody over their children and they are now their main purpose in life is to develop the professional and personal skills to help other people do that professional skills yeah but where you're going to do something and that's going to leverage card let's come to the job at secondary because ok st thing is let's say that one of the things people crave in this world is meaningful work well that's something that has another side so there's a it's a little bit grayer than the way you're saying and i think at least in the field i'm in because people do you need to you need to not unless you happen to be like have a big trust fund or something you can't ignore money you have to know that that's part of the world that you live in but most of the people that are doing this the the work that i do in the field and i'm and they see this as part of their their contribution to the human condition and they see this is something that they have a generati purpose and it's their work and yet they have to try to align that in you with a job and part of my job is to make jobs for people that are aligned with what we're trying to do as an agency for you so that they can come in and take that that's that's doing those two things but so yet so they do have a job but their job is you know if you think of it as like a venn diagram they're there they found a job that is aligned as much as possible with what is actually motivating them which is to have a place to practice their passion and to make a difference and you practice they actually enjoy helping people or or hell or being engaged with the things that really matter like love and the other kinds of things and purpose and the important value now other than it's not fun what we do like it's very it's the you know the term secondary traumatic stress you know you actually have a physical and  yeah you know we absorb the context our reality is framed for our within our minds by what where doing each day where we're surrounded by so these are people who choose to steep themselves in some of the toughest stories experiences and narratives that are happening in our area and that here comes their reference point for how humanity is doing and you end up living your heart ends up actually living the experience of intense trauma even though it's not directly happening to you because it's happening to people that are part of your emotional and daily when you're trying to do like that you're trying to reduce that in their life's experience you triggs ackley yeah so so that so when you say do they and joy it they enjoy it's fulfilling for people but it is not fun most days it is very very hard work and and then there are also that exist are purely enjoyable when some foundation or something can it fit into a private sector money making contacts that motivates business as usual opportunities that the society present can you be making a profit you find a concern for that whereas in a lot of the public's the private sector they don't give a hang about the leaf advantage let them die well most of the agencies doing the kind of work i'm doing are private sector but it's almost all  is you know a pathway for for for the power to do something you need to be able to organize the money to create a living wage for someone to come and you know what about it there instead of it being a wage they get they just get money you give away for them to have the money they have to make a good you do want to work at the things you wanted to be worthwhile you want to person to feel come back from the factory and feel worthwhile they helped to build the national guard defense or something of an outer directed motivational thing that rewards effort they want to be a sense of identity if they all had if they all didn't have to if they didn't have to struggle like crazy but they bring back the bacon and the family is secure and the family is ok and their pride for that or not and those kind of things are part of the human that's part of the way the societ organized and the work ethic is there when we get back to what you were asking before and i know it's all very very hard to get well you know if you think about your question before about this what is the return on investment kind of question that is a business and if you were so if you were to take a business model to have to you would have to widen the circle of what you think of as you know right now the actual families that we're talking about in that you know if we can organize the question in the dialogue that  way they're seen almost as extra analogies like on the return on investment yeah it's very clear and people are starting to you know get it together to create actual because because they know that ultimately people who care a lot about money are involved in making decisions about this kind of thing so people are working harder and harder to show the return on investment persis idea economically when you make these investments in annual that are suffering right oh so we have a thing to be a  salable thing but you have to but it doesn't work if you're like well what's my investment you know if you're thinking what's the return on investment for the shareholders so we can line their pockets with more money that kind of thinking does not work here but if you it's kind of like infrastructure with our you know you have you can make a you can make a money based argument for why it's a good thing to invest in roads and bridges and internet and all that stuff so you can do the same for what you do church yes there's very clear you know  correlation between taking care of people and having reduced crime and how is it understood is not to abstract away from the immediate gains avoid ever ever going to do it like in business investment you're going to get company a of you know as you would if you thought of it all as one family yeah you thought of all of humanity as one organ and that's what i'm trying to with not a whole day i'm not going to send blood to my hand when it's my hand on the thank you date it was he would say like we have to take care of this whole organism and their hearts that are not thank you money is really the i think of this if you take the value laden stuff out of it and money is made up at some imaginary thing that is just the language of of of  are you going to benefit in the future so you're tapping into the future so you've d got a better chance of tact being into the abstract capability existing right that you're in institutions you've inherited out of a more constrained historical patter pattern with what work constraints are anything the good allow there to be these kind of values right there and so it would be like you'd make a business you'd make a proposal that could be understood by the society in general you politicians would make a think they would have a pattern there could allow us to do what we're capable of the right rather than being constrained in trying to fit what we're able to do for the good of humanity and for the eco system and other things because we're constrained by  adherents to outdated concept of human nature and also of what we can collect a real what we're capable of and everybody knows we're not capable of taking care of everybody but in fact we may very well have a vision that we are capable of that in a unique way it is like almost evolutionarily giving it changed it undercuts all of the basic institutional structures by which we limped along up these various curves you know what the limited political sense like the french revolution or the american revolution or something but that we're coming to a time where the by the given principles of the universe so there's not nearly enough to go around there never was you know it was limited to only only the little kid do understand one thing i do the whole the whole understanding is that the material world is limited you've got to grab for yourself or you've got to provide for yourself or something and what we should be getting through is it's it's we're capable of taking care of everybody in a way that was never been able to because of the technological capability of writing letters and i think that again  systems of interwoven increasingly diverse egos ecosystems so you have these interdependencies that become more and more complex as the this tapestry grows and one of the things that is outdated means not just about the technical almost you know the technology in the systems to make sure see if everybody can have enough but it's also intellectually emotionally and in terms of our identity and  if there's a scarcity of of you know we have to manage we're always managing at some level our us and our them you know i didn't give five bucks to everybody i passed on the street today that was asking for money and you know i could have done that but i did so i'm always you know you got to be realistic we're always trying to figure out who's our us who's are them that it's not that it's bad to make decisions where you leave other people out but generally from an evolutionary standpoint we need to recognize that the whole planet is whole so i look at what's happening in this country about you know pointing fingers at other places look what's happening around the world you can ramp people up into this us and them thinking which gives you a false sense of you draw the line nice and narrow and you say ok i can manage that individual each cell as part of a subsystem like a goal like like a finger or whatever and they all work they will it works as a system to create and everything is needing to have oxygen every n his work is system and it works well it's called eight organism was successful and let's say even happy organism well and one got so big well like what ninety seven percent of the cells that are in what we call our body are not our cells or do you mean they're from like  like just yeah minimally understood store right and we're just and then the thing is that it works is a system of these persons the system right ended you go it destroys you start extending that out into others let's say i know a lot of guys who like to do jazz yeah club downtown and they were just spontaneously jamming right and everybody is playing and they're all feeling it is right and you want everybody to do the best they can not be messed up so you want that in what you want to ask is that for everybody everybody could be doing you want people to be doing the best they can you want that to be a favorite thing for the whole ball of wax or the whole organization or whatever and so we wanted for the whole of the humanity and and we may be coming to a time of being able to realize that on a planetary scale in evolutionary terms and what is d it the universe three billion eight hundred million you drew years or something like that yeah we're never it is you know so we're coming and then there's evolution of a path and we may be coming to a qualitative break in evolutionary terms or is that reaching too far when i see it or i have breach in of that and then then i'll tell you my also our our the because another thing that has evolved along with all this stuff is are our behavioral patterns you know so some of those are manifest in institutions others are just in our the way we look at the world the way we make sense of the world and i think the way i see it and you know this is all these are just heuristics you know they're not the real story they're just something to hold on to but the way that i see it is that so jazz is the norm like nature is one basically just  the expression of nature that is evolving which is our minds and so we went from having you know when animals are when the tensions between animals and wanting to survive and procreate and eat and all that stuff and not be killed  degrees and it reads every time almost in seventy six degrees and there is in that seventy six degree it doesn't register heat right and but when it rains or when you have a site well it's really miss capability we're not   ality i understand we get all caught up in the reality of the cable and we should be paying attention to that larger reality we might have a capability of providing for everybody so that everybody can maximum and you want everybody to maximize their things that we're co creating every day things that we perceive it to do that's part of it yeah sure and so those things we have not learned to play jazz together very well so we're actually trying to return to the consonance and freedom and structure that is the natural way in a sense with this new layer this new messy lair of cognitive millennia right and and we have not caught up to the fact yet that that's actually that choice is wellington's out of balance the way we treat each other and see these differences and we have not caught up to the fact that that is really is not adaptive  nature is about finding the most adaptive yeah around plex you know are interdependent system when you get that when we get back to jazz it will be a pay i think a return to what is our normal state but with this evolutionary terms and then you had it if you have a liberated humanity everybody's a big gigantic jam session everything's going right and it's connected is idealistic sounding that it might not be we've got technique we've got a capability now the technological extension of our consciousness now the weapons have become species lead so now we have in our own hands the ability to destroy our whole species never had that until yesterday right ok on the other hand we've got a capability of taking care of program but you know we'd like to work out we've done this before but it was so good this week i'm so proud of my son david donald jenner as you can see a roller is doing great great work it's so good i'm glad you're here we're going to do some talk tonight know everything now and  might give my best everybody out on the west coast there anything and everything so thank joe than for helping put this together and we thank you have you in we're coming back again tomorrow so do tune in then and then david let's go have a beer or something and talk things out a little bit more ok your pleasure thanks a lot for viewing will be come back again tomorrow thank you ok we're out i'm sorry i carried away