to beyond my crisis i'm your co host ron ross thank here for part two of our segment on guardianship and i'm visiting caspar and we have this special being two parts because people have no idea how critical this is and it reaches primarily to elderly people but it can reach even beyond and we're back today with juliet fairly and rick black and rick is a volunteer director at the americans against abusive probate guardianship welcome back both of you think you so much for joining us thanks for being this this problem can affect anyone and what we've seen is whether you're worth twenty thousand dollars or several million you c the famous jazz guitarist also victim in las vegas where my father in law was a victim and it's going campbell's children as well any want of wealth is a natural target if they think that they can get them into the guardianship system but honestly this is every man's problem whether you're worth twenty thousand or twenty one and juliet is a living testament to the challenges you face with your family like what happened in a nutshell well in a nutshell what happened is that the person that my father had chosen to be in charge of his medical care was neglecting his medical care and pulling his teeth rather than filling his cavities not delivering his blood pressure medication and i went to the veteran's administration and they said oh you're going to have to go to court which was the worst advice and i didn't know what else to do in order to prove his care i went to the court and it made it worse it's been worse but the problem is that when you look at the situation on her i used to kind of hear about these this the rumors but i thought that ever happened to me that would never happen in my family so that's the problem is people think it would never happen to me and so they're not really concerned about it and then you kind of naturally progressed in that direction and then you find yourself in what have you seen your national advocate we're grateful that you've flown in from north carolina to our students here new jersey but this is a national problem we do we are seeing throughout the country how do you see that this differed and are any of the is and suspecting criminals another words the victims would never suspect that this is can even be criminal action because it is when someone is not just conning people for the lack of a better term out of their money but as juliet was just saying that's physical abuse when you point someone teeth out and neglect basically removing their medicines from their daily use or as needed that is physical abuse as well it is vivienne my recommendation all families is be prepared and that preparation involves executing those a state documents that advance directive on health care or health care surrogate so that if you become incapacitated a loved one can come into care for you have a successor executor on all of those discussions so that there's a balance of power if things i as was the case with juliet if you leave it to one then that person has all the power and this should and the clause in the agreement that should allow for oversight and inspection of expenditures medical care so there could so they're depending on a third party that they trust to execute those agreements and that's that's when it becomes a little more complex but number one be prepared execute those do that you know we were saying that your family you were just trusting each other but to me be prepared is like have a business contract ready do we have to carry my family my phrase this as a business not a father had all those papers those papers place the problem is the person that he chose betrayed him is betraying him and what would have helped it's had he put two people so that they could balance each other out yes so i think that's very important is to have to do exactly what it was rather than and not just to executors but have trust of one person in addition to your children would they be a good backup does that make sense i would never go to an attorney be candid what i have seen in the four hundred plus cases that i've investigated is you generally have more problems because the attorney wants to leverage the court the attorney general use self possessed on making sure that they make money i coach families around the country attorneys have three priorities number one make money number two build a network that helps me make money and that work is not families network is other lawyers and the court if you're an elder law tourney number three is maybe satisfy a customer or client in that agenda use a family member or a distant third in that environment and he knows keeping judges happy has a pertains to this discussion fraudulent guardianships if he keeps a judge happy he'll make much more money than satisfying a clock right so in there i think the world you could go to court and you would say look this person is abusing my father not delivering his medications cooling his teeth instead of filling his cavities that cetera et cetera and in a perfect world the judge would say oh this is not correct and we're going to rectify this but the problem is that there are so many people that have an interest in money including the state that it doesn't and the only person gets lost in the shuffle right we were talking about attorneys and you were saying how corrupt attorneys can be how do we choose an attorney then what what's the system that would help us diligence it's so it's not easy on picking an attorney is if you need one that is the most important decision so don't ever make for your parents so what aveeno or these online review systems very healthy eating their house and you never turn to them because it's attorneys that create those ratings yes some of the best ranked vo and i can't remember the other service some of the best rated attorneys around the country are the attorneys that get named and fraudulent guardianships on a routine basis some of the most highest profile attorneys in las vegas one actually just got indicted because her primary client a professional guardian was exploited over one hundred twenty of her clients and was also indicted as well so be to an attorney have you are you currently being indicted for any cases one that would seize it because you can't get it on public record i think a better question would be do you represent professional guardians so way you represent the public guardian because those entities in any given judicial district are paid from the estate to quote protect your best interest you just said a phrase you said professional guardians i was always under my parents now misinformation that a guardian is someone you know the love trust whomever to be your guardian i mean i've been appointed my guardian and you have hopefully i'm my mother's guardian because she's seventy one so the question is going to be what i mean a professional guardian what is that vivian there's there's three types of guardians for so let's understand the profile a guardian is someone that is appointed by the court by default when you say you want to guardian there will be a court involved and that it that court those officials that that support the court expect to be paid for their services that payment comes from your state so guardianships are very expensive inside the guardianship umbrella you're going to have family guardians that still have to be appointed by the court they are paid for their services it's you do it out of love you're the guardian angel of your your adult child or your parents or your sibling  then you have this group called professional guardians professional guardians are paid and they're paid extremely well many of them make several hundred thousand dollars a year they charge upwards of they have no professional licensing requirements they have no certification requirements there is less oversight felons ok apply right no know all states require that you not be a convicted felon  but court never does a background check on guardians to determine whether they have a felony charge or conviction or bankruptcy bankruptcy and felony convictions are both named in almost every state that is there in n g s list that you can not that i've seen but but but a simple background check would divulge this information on anyone what we see in the probate court really building on juliets comment the courts are incapable or don't care to be thorough with due process time and time again in fraudulent guardianships or involuntary guardianship we see a petition is filed that is required lies if there is so much in it that is absolutely untrue there is no physician certificate to say that your acetate it and they send it into a court and a judge has a clerk sent two million dollars out of the it already and there's no and it happens all the time and all the time all that to her how many cases per year does this happen to them roughly we estimate raw right around fifteen thousand if there's an h nationally yes there's a hundred seventy six thousand according to the national center for state courts one hundred seventy six thousand adult guardianships or stablish in two thousand and fifteen and that rate is growing at double digits it will triple by twenty fifty triple so they say so seven percent to ten percent of these cases that's could have some amount of fraud in the hopper of that's correct on it being lost familial assets those assets yours your mother's your dad your sister your brother because once they're drawn into the probate court system if you love your family member those that you have been assigned you will spend nearly your last penny trying to save that loved one and they were a lie on that i've got your loved one isolation is a primary guardians and their attorneys the guardians that are attorneys work very effectively together we use the phrase isolate defame the family fleece the estate the intensely fame and fleece that's  right i so late to fame and fleas it's all about greed fraudulent guardianships involuntary guardianships are all about greed you i know you have money and i know if i get you in a guardianship i will get the enjoyment  estate it could be hundreds of years of assets that have been accumulated in a family and all of a sudden it transfers to a third party isolation is part of this scheme because control of the body gives you control of the environment and control of the family the family can't speak for them they go to the judge and say you're too incapacitated to testify you can't come talk  feel like you're victims in this what what what do you see now that you didn't see before when this started that our viewing audience may be able to learn from your mistakes well i think i want to say that these professional guardian that the courts are appointing should be first aryans registered nurses these guardians are not medical professionals and if you're dealing with elderly people the least amount of certification should be that there are ins well what about background investigation that you know you don't chew but the minimum certifications should be that the guardian if you're not going to appoint a family member then it should be a professional runners or if you decide if it's determined that a family member is not being honest and respectful and is abusing the elderly person then the the professional guardian that you're going to appoint a seat at least be an r n that has a background check at least in our in so we so we would have these people sign a document that says you authored we authorized you to do a background check and you get this has occurred a number date of birth driver's license and you go to a background check in company and you get it done that there is a fight by the state they are sort of once the court appoints the guardian they are certified by the state the problem is the state doesn't require that these guardians be nurses are  and i'm saying to myself the person is eighty years old eighty seven years old ninety years old whatever their age is ok don't you think the guardian should be a medical professional i have other ever exceptions that's completely i completely agree with you that is very logical i just want to know who is in danger so does that mean anyone who has an elderly person life let's say the cut off is what seventy seventy five years old and above is that who we're concerned about right now yeah well anyone can be drawn into guardianship i've got a nineteen year old on staten island which i don't understand how could a nineteen year old be a victim of guardianship abuse he was injured in a car accident at sixteen years old he was awarded one point five dollars i think his mother and father divorced they had a great relationship but they chose not to stay together and they divorced an attorney who had targeted this young man decided i'm going to file for guardianship over him because i can create a stage conflict that says his mom is stealing from him because she doesn't want to work and she's going to live off of his estate and never let him enjoy the benefits of his estate so that attorney files ex parte and we we've talked about what that means the family never got noticed noticed they were never given the opportunity to come to an hearing and then overnight this attorney had complete control of this young man's estate and now he is staging litigation between the mom and the son even though the son is saying i love my mom i want to live with my mom we don't want this guardianship but it but you voltaire absolutely but the judge is embracing it ron that's the issue mike i come back with your viewers to just say i do want to scare them look most guardianships most guardians are good i'll admit that most lawyers are good most judges are good but in the probate family courts system if they choose to go bad and many do in a criminal environment with criminal intent there is no backstop to stop it law enforcement doesn't engage fighting them is financially impossible it and they will drive you bankrupt they want you to engage and fight them so yes even a nineteen year old granted one that's worth one point five million dollars and is extremely vulnerable this guy makes straight makes a zombies he's graduating from high school he's fully functional of imagining that if you receive this sentiment he may have been incapacitated maybe he's no you know bedridden i don't think that somebody who got such an award would be incapacitated that's why they received the award it was a personal injury at birth servile palsy and he's got some deficiencies but his mind is with that he so he loves his mom definition it should what we see is that parties with trust are commonly targeted by predatory attorneys how do people find out about a trust then a law on line search i think a lot of shielded by they they are shielded but oftentimes this is back to turning now to work hey i do trust i know many many of these trust perversion cases are by the actual attorney who drafted the trust so they suffer a public record no no no no no by deftly by definition trust keep you out of the public record that's why they're such a unique tool they're also to keep you out of court when you know this is the perversion part when you are identified for guardianship the they go into your house they search all your records so they see that there's a trust agreement and that is a license really to steal because that trust is then not presented tran sparently to the probate or family court by law they can keep it off to the side they don't say that they're assuming the trust but they do assume the assets and we see time and time again where the trust assets are they converted to the third party fraudulent lee but they claim throughout the entire process with the court that i didn't take over that and what the best way to prevent that kind of that specific for my guidance to cause we don't have federal laws to protect these victims my guidance to families is do not draft the trust the risk is far too great go back into those simple instruments of cook joint ownership on your assets execute that durable power of attorney execute that health care surrogate health health care advance directive execute that will and name your executor and have two successor trustees on all those documents preferably a tie breaker three if you have three children or five children or seven children where can people find more information though is there a book that you would i'm working on a book it's actually done it's gone into the printer it's going to it's called fit the family guy to prevent elder abuse and it's written by a writer thomas right he is also a victim has a hollywood producer director and writer i'm very pleased with what he put together i was a contributor with eight or ten other authors but it talks about how to identify those risk factors that might place your loved one in a in a scenario to be not only abused but in a fraudulent guardianship and then what to do if you find yourself in that unfortunate position so there's some light there and there is and you there's more like to i've i've spent the last year and a half lobbying in washington d c i quit my job two years ago i've been doing this full time as a volunteer amendable no thanks and but this is from the heart from the heart when you live through this you are touched forever that's my mom here because my wife can't be this says changed our family the fact that we couldn't see or speak to her dad in private the last two years of his life and that experience cost our family a million dollars it's something that i thought i could never happen in my country we've been blessed i want to share those blessings fantastic by senator chuck grassley who's the chairman of the judiciary committee it's senate bill one seventy eight it provides two aspects which julia referred to it would assign trainers within the department of justice and the f b i to assist local police to educate them on trademark elder abuse teams and fraudulent guardianship schemes it also demands that there be a national registry so that we keep track of all persons who are assigned a guardian around the country and to have them report their financial dealings through that national registry and have a federal oversight organization we estimate that there's also a billion dollars of medicaid fraud that's involved with these fraudulent guardianships because routinely the assets are consumed by the guardian the victim is placed then on medicaid which becomes a burden to the taxpayer when there was plenty of assets because if they should have a good motivation to pass this bill now the question i have and we do then well first thing of a or nest to have to the right to for any physical abuse that you're mentioning it mean when you said someone's teeth are being pulled out against about that is physical abuse and also to have more oversight on who is allowed to become minimum for a second why i don't think one person should be allowed to be a guardian for one hundred people or fifty people they should a vast amounts of limitations maybe be a guardian for five people so it's not turned into someone's occupation with a fleecing millions of dollars  some i saw standardization of the protocol of checks and balances and the fans out there in this justice system here is that you i grew up with a military veteran father so i grew up with the flag and you know the military bases and saluting the flag and i believed in the justice system i believed that if i went to the court that there would be justice but you would you would never believe what has unfolded it and you have to live it and if you want to told me i'm a journalist a business journalist if you had told me that if he had come to me and told me this i would not have believed him it it has to happen to you to you for you to be like wow well what we're going to do is thank you very much both of you juliette and rick for coming onto our show and what we're doing here f b i my crisis is elevating knowledge and bringing information that we are now sharing with our viewing audience throughout the country and we're going to have posted what else everyone can do who they can write specific information and websites and resources and yes everyone has to deal with that so we can get beyond this crisis and grow together as helping people protect obviously not just elderly but anyone can be a victim someone's necessary winfall of an eighteen year old's million a half dollars or so one point one million should not make them a victim and tear apart a family thank