as the pain detective and then we have julie maddox who is the wellness coach so welcome back lee and if this is your first time tuning into well you let me just tell you what's about we're really just trying to bring tools for people to live well today and we have some great shows that we've done but today shows a little special it's a two parter all right so you ready hold up your books ladies how we are going to talk about help how to help those that don't want it so i gave these ladies an assignment so you guys can hold your books and we'll put mine down i don't know if i saw that in a book but how i came to writing this book is that i'd done some workshops for people in the community you know and i've had people come up to me carol how do i get my husband to take his blood pressure medicine you know or how do i get him to stop smoking or how do i talk to them without making him upset and  i thought you know what let me just put this all in a book so more people can have access to it and so the interesting thing about the book and about my approach is have you ever heard of the stages of change you know  like all there is the researchers back and eighty's that this phenomenal research and basically identify did would we make changes ourselves included there's these different stages that we go through why i gotta tell you for twenty four years i can use it because it was more of a circle and if you know me i'm a visual person so i came up with a river change i love and so so both of these ladies we we really just going to go where we go and so the here's a story george is our guy in our book and george has some health issues and his doctors told him that he needs to make changes in his life if he wants to be alive to walk his daughter down the aisle and she's only twelve george needs to take his medication he needs to stop smoking but guess what even the trip to the hospital he's not so here this is every get to see my drawing now because i think we're going to do this because i got a lot of pictures in there and so let me ask you all this can you think of somebody you know life a media you know needs to make changes in their life yes but doesn't want to yes and just like you said about georgie you have  this this health issue and you would think all that's going to change oh yeah yeah you'll see it then yeah yeah and here's the thing with george even a trip to the emergency room his wife thought was going to get him to change his mind did not and here's the reason why if this is the river change george is hanging out over here so i got stick people you are so sure just hang out over here we could talk to george all we want to about the river you can talk to george all you want to but the problem is he can't see it and you want to know why because in between him is this mountain range which is why you can't talk to people about the change because it's not a problem to them have you read into that yes yes yes the it makes sense how if you can't talk about what's over here because george isn't going to see what you're  so you have to talk about work where george is over here and quite honestly i see this happen all the time and treat settings you know people or staff will say julie you need to take your medication you know you need to stop doing this you need to stop though and then the person doesn't get crap because there was the reason that they're there is because the police brought them and you know they didn't walk in the door voluntarily and i think that's what i want people to understand right now honestly i mean i think this was a really sad time with such an opiate you know epidemic and family members cannot say to somebody you need to just stop doing drugs guess what i'm going to work and this is why it's not going to work because this person's over here and what you're talking to them about the has no clue that it even exists so i call this the land of can't see because they can't see the problem so don't talk to them about the problem yeah i was fascinated with that because i never thought to look at that way that would mean that he has this habit for years and he can't see it like he doesn't see it is a problem and in order to be a problem is when we make change helping with the people that they live with are closest to a big issue as far as the person seeing  what we want to do is i think we get george to see there's a problem all right so and then he moves and you wonder where he moves to he moves to make him a little bigger here and now he's kind of between where he was and the river and i call this the plains of potential because here's the thing this is a great place if the person keeps moving in that direction but here's the bad news people can stay here a really long time a really long time like i know that therapists when i'm doing this workshop for them say carol they could stay there for years and i did yeah you know and i don't know if you've seen somebody who kind of thought about changing but didn't really change but then kind of like kind of like ambivalence if you never had that about your own you know so so own terms saying i yes see that wow that i'm not doing that again i'm not doing that again because that's not what i want yet and that's a great i mean because i want to bring it home give you guys a really good examples because we're all times are here yeah like this is life this is the changes we go through in life and sometimes the people around us can care about us the most but guess what we have to see we have to you had to see it didn't matter how many years in a lot of money  when we look at change none of it's bad you know there is no right or wrong way to change it is just understanding how we do it and how we can help somebody and especially somebody who doesn't want it you know because when i worked in a hospital i got lots of times people showed up they didn't show up because they want to be there you know in fact you know what they say to me carol specially if this place well i don't need to be here i don't have a problem  don't need any medication for my deprived don't have depression ok you know depression and the most important week thing we can do is meet people where they are and quite honestly had great success so for me it was looking writing this book was like what did i do that worked and it worked i'm telling you it worked you know but that's because you're not shoving it in a person you know and you're helping them see and that's what being a river guide is all about helping them not doing it for them but helping them do it and this pack it up means that all right a person has made a commitment you know this is the land of no rush you know this is the land of potential and this is the you know ok of but i can do it it's the land of do you know i can do this and and again the thing about this is here is that this person whatever they do here they got across the river like this is this is a big thing which that's where peoples around them become such a great support and then all right here's my raft of it's my mark twain raft you know and then we have george he is better give him some arms  now this place george is actually making he's doing he called this you know the he said you know in the doing because he's actually doing whatever the changes you know if the changes are going to stop smoking all right well maybe he's you know kind of stop smoking here we start to see a little change is so kind of like that person might all right to get to the gym think about gone to the gym now i know you're pretty good about it you're pretty good about exercising have you always been good about it can you think back to when you want to know where to go and aagot i was motivated by individuals yeah i could think of curt you know encouraging yeah encouraging is good is good is good yeah and so here's the problem we make though is that when people are in the spot and they're actually doing a change we think of that the action because this is action it isn't change change is on the other side if this makes sense and so it's really if you start here george can move here then george can move back to here so it might happen because it's georg come back out here you know or maybe come back here but this is i call this woman but the trick i want to make sure everybody understands here is it just because it most the time it's when depends on when the tornado hits and we have a tornado that's coming to visit quite honestly let's let's give the tornado because guess what we're going with the flow so what the tornado is like the sound effects today so the tornado is what we call relapse tornadoes and it can happen at any just so let me share a big change for me all of my life you know what people told me to do stop biting my nails everybody was telling me what the change that i needed know telling me telling me telling me and i had to come to the same realization you know and i can tell you exactly when to change it became a problem i was doing activities of daily living at this this one mental health program and that meant i had the ladies and we were doing males and i remember saying to myself how can i do nails when i got you know like how can i kind of i'm a person you gotta live what you teach so at that point i remember thinking ok this is a problem so i stopped by my nails and i kind of got to hear and then i'd go through a little periods of relapse you know where i might get stressed out and i didn't kind of get good at the change and not that i would always go all the way to the land of can see yeah but i definitely would come from packing up over here to the plains of potential carol was that like a coping mechanism or it well you know here's the thing a lot yeah a lot of our behaviors tend to be what we do is our survival tool right right and for me biting my nails so here's what i found out that when i bit my nails it was because of three things i was hungry bored or stressed we know what we're going to do is one of our next shows because here's this thing a feeling and a behavior are two different things people think that they're one but they're not when we're doing a behavior there's always a feeling that gets connected to it and for me biting my nails was and that was part of my detective work that i had to do you know in coming back here and then kind of start back and then kind of go on back on  hungry bored or stressed and i what i did was i always kept some gum on me and so i created a healthy substitute you know could change here's the other really important let me just draw george so here's a day we get george and here is george on the other side and he's holding steady as i call it i was thinkin you know so much easier to use computers and you know slides of like and i'm going to drop so it george on the other side so he's actually navigated he's taken action and here's the thing for change to happen we have to do it for three to six months otherwise we're still here we're still crossing the river of that make sense and this relapse tornado if george gets over here can actually pick him up bring him back here or like you said in july it really could because here's the thing have you ever a failure that they come all the way back to can't see it's not a problem you know and they kind of kind of like hide again you know becomes not a problem anymore if we can look at i don't like the word failure because it's actually a it's a rapture a good thing but if we could look at the opportunity to learn from it yeah then it brings us back here to the plane to potential or even to here so yeah that's where you talk about the detective work quite hard i was doing this because i was stressed here are are is forward yes yes yes and you have people around you sometimes we can see you know sometimes it takes people around you which is why we're going to talk about being a river guide  but this is what this is what you guys read in the first part and was there anything that comes to mind for you guys read in the first part and when you kind of saw our change for the first time well i think  college to twenty year fitness training with this person so i was feeling all the stages yes and i have been start in the tornado many times here but i also have had the feeling when i was in the tornado and staying strong with person and for me to always having people around me river guide six kind of helped guide me to wellness you know and that's where the people become important it's kind again though you can't push people and you can't pull people you have to guide them and and and and help them see sometimes become the eyes you know and i think what you said is so important really about change is that particularly the big ones there ongoing in our lives you know it just kind of continues out that way on that no i want to want to say i feel that that's so wonderful that you have the river guys and i you did it takes a lot longer i've never had a mentor or guide so it just takes longer for me it does yeah yeah i mean and i think that that speaks to really the power of support groups to support and that we're going to support system you know for me i mean one of the things was you know certainly dealing with things in a very unhealthy way whether it's my fingernails or food at a time when i was very young alcohol you know and i think that that's where just helping people be encouraging and being that river guide you know and recognizing that sometimes you don't know how to get so here's the joke i say if we all wanted to go white water rafting we went to to go to the store buy a kayak and then head to the river will be a whole lot healthier nation if we work but i think that your point julie's haven't people and kind of being there but what you're always held in your mind was really the destination of wellness for you and just that you had it inside you exactly nothing with the guide and having done a lot of things and gone through i think that is the guy is he or she wonderful help with you they get you to see that you're doing it yes you know and i think building building people from the inside out now is what good guys also do and what's really important about it is getting to see yourself very different because here's the thing about this plane's a potential right that when when you're here yes there's lots of questions i found people ask themselves as well can i really do this well what happens if i fail you know and and you know for me it was having people who were s depressed and so wages that that's all they knew that was their identity at that point in time and what happens is we have to change those of us going through the change the identity has to shift so that you begin to see yourself as a different person that you begin to see yourself as and it's not this harping you know well that you go to the gym did you do this did you do that no harping really the support that's there yeah usually that's that's a great that's such a matter is is it change what these researchers found is that particularly around health changes that we are going there's no straight line that this relapse oh when i started twenty five years ago it was amazing to me was is that they said they would say in the treatment program relapse is impossible it's probable and i remember thinking that she that's a very very comforting thing to say but what they were really trying to explain is it don't think it don't feel like a failure because they're a kind of kind of goes like this you know or well i used to draw pictures from my patients because when you're here so when you're dealing with depression and all your days seem down here and then has a start to kind of go up and then they go back and they go up and then they go back down and go back in and you get up here well when you're here it feels like you're back down there but you're really not and that's when you need somebody say well he had to leave well guess what now you didn't he didn't do this he didn't do this this is you did this and you get to those eyes to kind of support you and i think is to empower  you you know and and so what i would do a workshop with people particularly parents or family members around people living with depression and bipolar disorder or substance use you know it was saying see where they are you know where you want them to be you know and we want them to see that it's a problem but we've got to start back where they are you know and helping them identify the reasons it's important to them and wellness for you was an important and just for you all the takeaways that you had to around the river or could you even see people like you said you saw people in your life and you could kind of see where they were in certain things yes yes yes so now i can look at these different situations and people say oh ok so they were here and then they that they realize yeah you know and maybe i didn't have the tools so that they don't keep relapse right right yeah it's a learning process you  you know it really is so the analogy i like to say to people as if it were crucial to pennsylvania we get on the pennsylvania turnpike and we're going out to pittsburgh right but we have flat tire we gotta pull into the rest stop they gotta fix the car right but then you get back out and you move forward see just because we end up in a tornado doesn't mean that you lost all that you learned along the way you know it's not like starting over you can never truly start over if you've if you've learned some things along the way you know i just worked at a day when my little cd in my listening to earl nightingale said a mind that has been expanded with an idea can never go back to its original place i like that yeah i wrote it down so you know so because once you learn you cannot lea know and that to me is what this whole journey is about you know those of us going through it is kind of being where we are and where we are doesn't have to be where we stay you know unless of course you like it you know it and baby and here's the other thing when we accept somebody up here doesn't mean we agree so let me use examples i have a family member who's using drugs you know who's using heroin you know when i accept that that's where they are and they don't see is a problem doesn't mean i agree with what they're doing it just means that that is it is what it is you know because a lot has to say well if you accept that means you agree no no it just means two very different things that make s yeah so so again my goal was really to get people to see change in themselves but also people around you who you can see but they can't now you understand why because there's a mountain range in here you know and it's kind of just helping them be able to see the problem and in kind of move in that direction as you know i think that's terrific carol yeah well and hopefully that serves people watching this so we're going to do is pick up in the next you know i got to come back so we're given your tools every two weeks so so we have to come back and watch the second part of this but i promise it will be well worth your while and so i really want to thank you guys for being a part of this because really we wouldn't have a show without really the three find all the tools you need to live well today