hear good morning welcome to changes the program on sustainability i'm susan gregory the coordinating producer of the program and before we get started i would just like to thank all of our listeners who donated during the fall fund drive because now we can start to tell you how some of that money was spent we have a new console here in the studio well it's new to us and several other upgrades that we hope will enhance the sound that you hear on your radio so we're just getting used to these things we hope that they're going to do very good work for us double up on this interview as we're both very interested in doing our own work and research into the topic so today we're joined by derek harz from harlem a waste innovations and he is one of the bigger private haulers reasons one of the reasons derek is here is because derek is also on the committee for creating the new solid waste management plan at the r d n and what we're trying to do in that community is figure out ways to increase diversion in other words to recycle more and have less garbage and there's lots of talk in the multifamily sector how can we do that how can we have less garbage in our recycling how can we improve our programs for recycling and what a lot of people don't know is that multi family residence residences don't have the same pick up service and collection service as a household where where you have your curbside pick out but well multi family residences are serviced mostly by private haulers and so that's where derek has had years of experience in and i know and i guess on vancouver island in general correct so we're hoping to get to get the perspective of what is that world like from the hollers perspective in what are the issues and what are the challenges for us to try and increase diversion and recycling from some of these sectors which is multi family residences which you wouldn't really think of as commercial but it's serviced by commercial haulers yeah because it counts as a commercial property that's general income and before we start i know we're probably going to throw this term around a lot today and it's i c i so so everyone who's listening knows what that is maybe isn't as deep into this topic as we are is institutional commercial and industrial so that would be institutions would be things like schools and hospitals commercials would be multi family buildings retail stores an industrial say a mill or something like that correct contract you for services and it's up to them to decide what services they want whether it's garbage organics or recycling or all three that's correct we try to encourage the as much for cycling as we imo uses for their own residences we can now offer to all the strata complexes and i'm ok and i know we've also talked about an n b c a lot on the shows i've hosted just so everyone is clear as well that's multi material british columbia they are a stewardship group much like the stewardship groups we have for electronics recycling and their goal is to manage packaging cardboard paper cans metal all that type of thing in d c so they have a contract for curbside pickup collection and now as well with commercial wrecked yeah that's correct the it's a it's a program that's been quite expanded from from previous programs last year and that we find it's not so bad now people are starting to adopt to it and d c has a really good website that really kind of clearly lays out what is acceptable and what's not so the transition is no sooner and is starting to get a lot easier  obviously the challenge with thought multifamily is you've got containers or collection containers in the central area and it's very difficult to police the contamination rates and n b c has very strict guidelines on contamination so that's probably the biggest challenge we have with the top program yeah yeah you know a lot of things there with contamination and everything  spent is one of those things that that is the big ticket item here but before i ask you about that i'm curious what is the range of services what does it mean b c is not  hundred percent mandatory it might be in your program but it's not everywhere so what is what is the range of services that a multifamily residence for example could choose from in in our area here  i mean when it came out it was supposed to be mandatory things of the develop where it's not of course is mandatory so what is a proper thing for ma from a haulers perspective is because there's a fair bit of work on the sea for a strata council to initiate a program like this what ends up happening is one of our competitors might show up and say hey look just throw everything in one been and will look after ourselves what they don't always know the stuff is probably mostly going to  landfill so the public perception is we want to easier we want we want to recycle but we want to be extremely easy and sometimes those two things are difficult to to it's difficult to have both of those things you know the p c program is a very extensive very well thought out very good program but it does take a little bit of thinking outside the box from what we've been used to so and we've run into that too from the recycling depot because we're also  c contractor and we've had to pour extensive resources into education for it's been going since may two thousand and fourteen we're still putting extensive resources into education but education is what we do i can imagine that's a little burdensome for a hauler who who is the whole are you haul stuff around i'm not sure you get up in the morning planning your education program  so i am curious about enforcement education is part of helping people put the right thing in the right bin and so that it goes to the right destination but it sounds from what you're saying that it's your job to be the enforcer and and in fact the latest our d n a report that we've been going through from our our committee also says that that the hollers are that's one of the challenge is that is that the haulers i meant to be the enforcer is so how does that work out is one of the biggest challenges for us us haulers the easiest thing and you know every government agency in an government body has just opted for the easy way out and that's just a we're going to blame the hauler if the stuff comes in contaminated and what ends up happening is we end up getting fines so instead of encouraging more recycling you know as a there's the temptation to start looking out ways of taking outside of the area and taking it to different levels of don't give you a fine no saying that we do that but it it is the it's the biggest challenge if there is a one big challenge that's it and the fact of the matter is is multi family is the biggest challenge we have with regards to contamination and recycling because  eighty units in it and all your containers for collection the material are in one central location you don't know who's contaminated and so to just dump the whole burden onto the hall or make it responsibility is is is an area that i have difficulty with i think it's wrong and i think that there should be much more resources put into the education collectively with government agencies and with and with it kind of does the opposite of its intent these these find the kind of just by putting the burden on you it makes it more tempting for you to just say i'm going to give this unit this building one van garbage go for it yeah i mean because here's the problem if we get to find the landfill and then we try to pass it down which is what we're told just passed it down to your customer second we try to pass the cost on to the customer they just go to one of my competitors and competitors will say oh well we don't get fined and don't worry we'll look after it and so ends up happening is the consumer or the the people recycling get mixed messages and that's probably the biggest challenge we have is the mixed messages on the multifamily side of things i imagine that makes it very difficult for you and also people living in these buildings because if for example they have to move which people in rental units often do they move from one building to another there's every chance that they're going to have entirely different services and set ups for recycling and waste there yeah that's exactly right that's exactly in fact we get that comment quite a bit exactly you just said and you know somebody moves in from a different building and they go wall when we were at this other location we didn't have to do anything and why are you making us separate all these different aerials out and you know we don't we don't like that and now everybody you know for the most part  get a lot of really keen people in some of these strata units and they want to do the right thing but there's always a percentage that don't really care and when you know through the m m b c guideline we have a threshold of three percent well nobody has ever hit three percent ever for camptown or nation and unless you have somebody there twenty four hours a day policing the containers it's an impossible thing to do so what we have to end up doing is is we have to put the material into a hopper in our truck and our driver house actually sort all that material out on the truck because there's no way we can get the three percent contamination is absolutely impossible yeah that was something i think the city was reported on to as the city wide we have five persons unless i'm mistaken which is very admirable but i'm full that's also to watch still and when you think for a whole city's pick up and collection that's usually in the range of ten to fifteen plus per cent contamination so to go that quickly down to three is a mammoth task for anybody and even harder for the situation you're describing in multifamily yeah you mentioned education which which has been interesting for us we're doing a pilot program right now in organic collection at the beacon and so one thing we did is front load with education provided you cation all the way through surveyed residents you know what we might prevent you from participating in such a program and what would help you and and these kinds of things so in a very short time we've gone from about sixty five out of either somewhere around one hundred residents that it's a population that travels frequently so it's not always full yeah there and so but we've gone from sixty five to eighty yet to eighty five in a very so so we're somewhere around eighty five percent of  patients will units that in this program and so and while the wells who's who's also on our solid waste committee who is in you know implemented this program there really feels it's been largely due to education in the way it's been taken away the fears and the hesitation and and even maybe somehow dealt with the apathy a little bit but it's interesting what you say about people moving in and why do i have to do this now i didn't have to do it before and the kind of comments you get a boat people not knowing really not knowing what's what out there in what they're supposed to be doing  also we hear comments like well i know how to do it it's kind of like the bad driver on the road it's not the heart i know how to do it but i don't think other people know what to do but they need education but not willing to fully admit it for and what we find is everybody needs a little bit of education at least and some people can do with a lot more and i think you're describing that exact situation in the region is some people know a lot about recycling and what goes where and some people maybe just by mere fact of where they have lived in their residence they haven't been required it's not the same as curbside where it's all one program everybody has to do the same thing in multifamily it can be one thing in one place and a completely different thing if you move to another residence is that according to what the hauler decides or what the what the strata council decides to have the hauler do it can see it can be a bit of both the the hauler i mean we have strict guidelines with regards to the ultimate turtle verse columbia program  and which we adhere to very closely the thinking originally was with the with the multifamily it's because you're going to one central location it's so much more inexpensive as a collector to collect that material as opposed to going to towse and in that respect the right where they got it wrong is that you need a lot more resources for education in multifamily than you do in a resident because in a resident you can go up there knock on the guy's door say look come out to the curb let me show you what you did wrong and it's very easy to do that you can't do that with multifamily because you don't know who contaminated it that's the problem and so me no my my where i've been voicing forever is you know as a hauler we need help with regards to  that three percent threshold because that's a very very difficult in multifamily if it was curbside piece of cake because say we can go and knock on the door and educate the person by for multi family stream lee difficult to do is it also a problem everybody in here but is it also a problem perhaps that in the multi family you may have just a big dumpster for recycling ones there might be two ones for garbage ones for recycling and maybe there's a sign on the front of the recycling dumpster as to what you can put in there and what you're not supposed to put in there which people may or may not even notice but everything goes into the same beheading whereas if you take it for example to the recycling exchange yourself you can see much more carefully and then of course not only that of course but you've got the staff people there to coach you on where it goes but in a multifamily it's just that been so does that pose problems i don't know if there's any way to change that well it buildings because you get the big cardboard and you can cut that carport up and put it into a small tiller so what ended up happening is they would put it beside well then we get a big windstorm and next thing you know your car bore blown all over the parking lot so we we had to switch gears and put our are still dumpsters back to collect the big paper products so what happens now is when you go to a an apartment building for example or a strike condo you will see a steel dumpster there for garbage you'll most likely see a steel dumpster there for large paper products and then you'll see ninety six gallon carts for the containers and packaging plastic packaging that sort of thing t all so that's pretty much the you will have anywhere from three to six containers out a building now if they're on a four recycling program and we also part of the i'm n b c program all glass is covered in the program can't go in your regular city of an animal curbside collection though because the trucks they used only have the one compartment so when it gets compressed the glass breaks and then you know with this in a b c program the recycling is probably been the cheapest ever been to put a program like this together for a fraud strata complex because we are subsidized a little bit by  c and so it's you know i've been at this a lot of years and this is probably the cheapest program i've ever seen so it has not benefit for the for the consumer as well so with that have you seen more commercial buildings and apartments pick up and request like greater services instead of just a basic we have when we when we get a new customer we just automatically put them on their m b m m b c program a lot of times they don't know we're doing not we just do it so it's part of our recycling program is to say we'll set you right up and then we set them right up i say where we run into problems sometimes as you get and it's not too many times that this happens but you will get it where you get an owner apartment building says you know what i don't want any of the fancy stuff just put me a dumpster in for garbage and that's all i want and it's you know that's the where education comes in and you know to john's point earlier about the organic  program at the beacon i mean she's right with the with the education that's why you got the rate up as high as you did in the education is a component that really needs to be addressed you know the old days just blaming the hauler for everything that we've got to put up behind us and really get to seriously taking up you know let's let's educate people collectively that's the way they'll have at last so if we're going to make things better  think their number of ways we can do that but i was looking at again it to another report that came out of the idea in and so one thing is that seventy seven percent of the waste stream that comes from i c i w the the industrial commercial and institutional waste stream so not household but the commercial stuff seventy seven percent of it is organics meaning food waste paper plastic and building materials so from your perspective which of those should we go after two if we're going to improve the situation increase diversion what's the easiest what's the easiest to go after you know for me from pure weight standpoint obviously would be kitchen scraps organic waste that would be the easiest one to get the one the would be the one that would have the most impact for the most part because we do a lot of the sector and for the most part the i c i sector's been very used to recycling their cardboard in their papers and not sort of thing so we don't really have too many customers that opt not to use a program they pretty much everybody wants to how recycling program the most recent one obviously has been the the organic kitchen scraps and  takes a little bit more in depth program because now you've got to put little kitchen catchers into lunch rooms and totes and and that sort of thing and so it's it would be probably the area that i would focus on and again through education not  through a heavy hand but through education because you know really from my experience most people want to do the right thing once it's clear to them what the right thing is that's what they want to do how big of a factor is costs but another program where you've been helping us out with these school districts because they want to do the right thing yet they've had budget cuts everybody's had budget cuts and then it trickles down into the recycling program because you know their bylaws they have they have to conform with the i d n but you know their their role is to educate and so maybe programs like recycling end up on the back burner a little bit or are caught to whatever so we've noticed if we're going to look at something like organics like you say it's a big ticket item but implementing an organic program is in a school we've quite difficult sometimes they don't have what it takes to do that and then you get all kinds of problems with the i know fruit flies and all and things that people deal with in their kitchens but a little bit more of a safety factor or a concern when you get something like that going on in the school so i don't really know what my question is but you might say something wise here to your point there the we've service the school district now for the last six years and it reminds me very much of the multifamily it's the same sort of issue the school district wants to do the right thing it really made a huge effort to do the right thing it's extremely hard to police all the teachers the chain of custody all stuff the students i mean you have to throw so much human resources to do that and that's where the challenge has been but there's no off for a lock up wants i mean the school district has really tried hard as has the university has the city all of them but it definitely  is a challenge to try to get the materials contaminant free as possible and again it's i don't see any other way other than through education i really don't know how to do it because again finding haulers at the landfill isn't going to solve the problem about you know some kids or a teacher throwing the material in the wrong been you know the problem is with us which a lot of people don't understand is in one of our front end load garbage trucks we could dump eighty to one hundred cans in one load so how do i you know where that little bit of contaminant came from i got eighty to one hundred pounds in there it's the difficulty that we have yes and speaking of that as well what we saw in the schools when places when they're kind of playing by different sets of rules the ne family as well it's not quite the containers can go in there it's kind of a different animal it's the same challenge though you know you're dealing with  not a person like you do or a family like you doing a curbside collection you're dealing with a huge group of people and you can't police who threw the contaminants in which is exactly the problem we have with multifamily we don't know other people in the condominium who put the contaminant but only takes two people out of eighty and i'm over my three percent and that's what the schools are dealing with and the schools try hard i mean they're looking at implementing a an organic program into every one of the schools so it's not through lack of trying but you know i sympathize with them because you know you think of how many between students and teachers and custodial staff and all the support stuff i mean that is a really big challenge and it's only a challenge i think that we are going to be able to solve is through education i don't know any other way to solve that and i know the education is is a long process but i don't know how else to do that you know unless you're going to go to electronic readers on every little piece or wrapping and you know w database to tell you who put that in the wrong container not sure how you do it i'm having visions of the bowling alley when you step over the line maybe one day that will come i don't know just wondering about funding for that that would take people's time it would take a tremendous amount of time and literature to be passed around and so on of which requires funding is that an issue certainly i mean you're a private hauler so how does how does that affect you as jan was asking earlier you don't get up in the morning thinking about how you're going to educate your customers because you have a job to do just actually picking picking the materials up so that must be quite a complicated thing and even for the e you have an education program but my goodness it could probably be expanded many times over from what you're actually doing now our mandate is mostly to educate in schools and to educate residents to kind is support the curbside program and mimic you know the curbside program it's never really being ever funded for this kind of things we're talking about today  the you know the when we wake up in the morning you know i'm i'm guided by economics i mean i have to be on the private hauler and as is the school district i mean you hear every second day in the paper they're getting the by just cut so they're under the same sort of constraints that i am and so i've always said to anybody who will listen to me that the education should be coming through the n r e should know they should put a little bit more funding into harry because they know what they're doing they've been doing it for years and then the interview should go out and educate the multifamily educate the schools educate the city educate that's the body that should be doing it because the school district doesn't have the resources i don't have the resources it's interesting because we've been doing this cool different school district project with you just kind of see what's going on we've already found places just by looking at practices where the school district could in fact save money simple for us to just go out and say oh why are they doing this why are they doing this and and they're spending money where they don't need to be which is going to be what we were part back to then when when we going to implement this program and we're going to have to spotters up at the laugh fill and we see anything comes out of the truck we're going to triple load so now average load for me going in there is around fifty eight hundred dollars so it goes from fifteen hundred dollars to forty five hundred dollars just to my tipping fees that significant so all that does is encourages haulers to figure out a way to start taking their garbage to the states that's what it does because the fines get to be so huge we're better off to taken to a landfill somewhere else i'm not saying that i've done that but there have been some haulers in the i'm old i have done exactly that for exactly that reason which totally defeats the purpose only how do you think how you can convince me that that is encouraging recycling you never will because it's not from your perspective as a whole or do you think it would be more effective if they took the opposite of approach rather than punishing contamination rewarding diversion and rewarding recycling in organics or which you would have to do again through an education program and diet because you have to do follow ups to that but i think that's the way it should go because you know this is this is the truth for the most part people really want to do the right thing they really do i mean very small percentage that don't really care but that's very small so once they understand why it is that they have to do just  at a boat the beacon right how you know just a little bit of education went up to like what ninety five or eighty five percent is huge numbers through a little bit of education but the education hadn't been there it would have been you know why we have to do this is ridiculous right i'm just not used to just filt all my stuff in one place and why do i have to separate out have to buy these bags i have to do this and but if you educate them and they can get by into why they're doing it makes it much easier yeah there's also a really strong sort  of community push there when it became just the normal thing to do using the organics bin instead of throwing it in the garbage or the garb raiders of people were using in the building but it's there once it gets to that critical momentum to it just becomes the norm that everyone in that building or that community does absolutely absolutely and that's enforcement is also an issue that perplexes the r d n because there's a cost to enforcement and so they're trying to look at you know one of the things we're doing on the committee is looking at possibly new regulations that would say hey if you are multifamily residence you must have collection services for such and such items and or possibly these items must be sourced separated even though that's a much more difficult thing to achieve so we're trying to figure out on this committee whether regulations are going to help that take take the onus off of the haulers for in for enforcement which could be a collaborative effort between education your knowledge of where contamination is coming from and the our dns ability to enforce that's a model that might be coming down the pipe we don't know if it's such a complex topic to try and sort out what is going to be the best approach to increase diversion derek what do you think is of all the i c i sector you have schools and large institutions and you have small stores you have big malls you have all of those who struggles the most which sector struggles the most i don't mean which names but which sector struggles the most in maybe a very big budget however you know with with the innovations with regards to recycling like for example a small business wants to recycle everything we would put in a steel been for the cardboard we'd say is we're not having to make three or four different trips because when you start adding up the carbon footprint when you have to send a truck so many times the same place that doesn't make sense either i mean you're you're recycling in one sense and then you're you know yours you're not so much more carbon into the to to get it so so what happens is now they can throw everything into one container we can go there with one truck comes back to our facility because we have our own recycling facility and then we just sort it out on our floor so for the most part i find that the i find that the i c i sector does a pretty good job there's a lot of want to to recycle where we find the difficulty is on a lot of the restaurants that really don't want to put a kitchen scraps program in because it does cost extra there's no way around it there's no subsidies for that and we have to send the truck there and it's an extra cost so if there is one area that nice attention from our perspective it's that area and course what happens if i try to enforce it with one of my customers they just go to one of my competitors and he goes don't worry about it  d all in one bin and this you know and nothing will happen don't you worry and so there's no teeth to the and that would be an area that i think could be improved on and to improve on not it would be done i think collectively through you know the regional district props ourselves and educating the customer you know if there was a if there was a clear cut regulation that you know these things must be recycled and you know they're already en or somebody would show up to make sure that actually in fact was happening then that would have teeth in it is that a snare you could see where if there was a fine or a punishment is that it going on down the hall or it was on the business for not having that service because in that way you could actually track down that business and see what kind of service they're having we could protg can that yes and that would be an effective way of doing it the problem is with costs already in low but more because now they actually have  resources to go out and to do that it's much easier again just to blame the if you're talking about the end of day of what we're talking about is getting material out of the landfill that would be the way to do it said guidelines if you are a restaurant or if you're any type of a school district or whoever you know organics must must must be recycled and we're going to come by periodical and make sure that you are actually doing it you just don't have a been there that you never use so you can pretend that you're doing it but you're actually doing it and in the impression  one point that the city was requiring restaurants to do that is that it's just my feverish imagination there was an organic spin and still is an organic ban on commercial businesses in metro enforcement needs to be collectively with the three bodies are supposed to just pay for all pay for a spotter at the landfill and if you see something wet and goopy come out of the front and truck you find them that doesn't work that just does not work so maybe a really simple question but if a restaurant has to pay to have their garbage hauled away does that why would it cost smart to have their recycle their kitchen scraps hauled away but just to a different place when it's gone why does the increased cost for them you've got one more truck because you can't mix you can't mix wet kitchen scraps with anything else see we can mix papers with tins with plastic sauce or because this is sort of on a floor you cannot mix organics with anything because it just contaminates everything a ruins all of it so you have to physically send another truck another driver to that location so there is an extra cost the landfill for organics is slightly cheaper but it's not enough to to offset the cost i mean at one time it was around twenty or thirty dollars cheaper now i think it's around ten bucks or something it's not very much at all if that much and so you know our biggest cost is our biggest cost number one is landfill but our second biggest cost is labor costs and coppell equipment to provide the collection services because you've got remember we have very specialized equipment to do this with you know it's trucks are you know especially like a kitchen scraps truck has to be sealed so you're not dropping stuff all over the road and the trucks don't you know there are thirty or forty thousand dollars you know the last truck we bought was three hundred twenty and they are expensive pieces of machinery so when you have to how truck go around now and specifically picking up a a one commodity product  associated too and there's just no way around it but that cost be somewhat remedied if there was a greater scale of of of businesses and apartment complex than multifamily all using organics because yes it would because now we're we're good density our my oh my whole business model runs off density so is many you know we're always trying to pick up more counts per hour so if we're in the dry right across town to do two accounts and i takes me an hour or if i have mauling bang bang bang bang and i can do fifteen an hour my costs go down so yes it would mean so something like a mandatory organics service for multifamily or playing in a band is already in place on commercial organics but maybe instead of making it a band in reversing the the language there instead of having a band make it a mandatory service that's required would be helpful i don't i can't remember if it's if it's banned for multifamily or not i just know that most of our multifamily how the organ acts programme because we encourage it wherever we can but tog and not everybody wants to take that and i can't remember off the top my head if it's banned for the strength of the i'll just jump in here because the strata that i know about which isn't the struggle that a lot of people think doesn't have an organic school action i think they've been interested but somehow the strata council decided against it so i don't know why right now they've got an enclosure that just fits the the big steel bins for one for garbage and one for recycling and there isn't any room in there for for some for another container but that's not really very much of an excuse because they could probably just expand the enclosure yeah i don't believe there is a fan for multifamily at the moment i think multifamily is the same as curbside where it's not banned it's just you know there's a program it's not supposed to go in your garbage but it's not an actual band ye but it does like for multi family when you add the organics component of the kitchen scrap component into it it does cost more and so on because they don't want to pay the extra money and that's the long and short of it for sure  something i wanted to come back to that we kind of touched on before we were talking and you have the the multifamily component of your service is contractor then n b c so if i live in my house or if i am living in an apartment i can throw out a container and it's going to the same place but you also service commercial businesses and you said you can set them up also with separate bins for tins and containers of paper is that still going to the same  that's on you then to to separate materials of deficit yeah exactly which is what we do for the school district we do exactly that so that an extra extra burden on you to to make sure these commercial sectors are even though they're  the same materials but now it's up to you to make sure it's going in a separate shipment getting yeah it's an extra cost because we have to you know we like for the i c i most of it ends up in clear bags in our front in containers so when it comes in we don't offer front end truck goes and we may dump four or five tons all at once in our plant and then we have to store all the banks out and then separate into different areas so the the labor costs for that is very high but it's a program you know and being in the business that we're in that's what we have to do that's the i mean that's part of the recycling and it's the most cost effective way to do it if we were to try to just send a truck there for every separate item it would be four times the cost so this is cheaper the alternatives for this is interesting how that sort of burden falls on on you just by offering a service that allows businesses and such  to do the right thing if you are saying but it's ultimately your company that and it reflects in the service the charge that we will charge a customer you know that's part of it it's you know we have to get th cost worked into their their monthly waste management monthly fee and so you know the more that they recycle you know some of the cardboard we get paid a bit for some of the papers we have a little before we're not in the do we have to do that understatement about the markets yeah that's the that's another thing steel was so you get practically was one of the bastions of recycling metal paper kind of yeah the the two holding up propping everything up and metal has tanked badly over the last year so it's definitely making recycling more challenging i noticed that m d c has an incentive program for perhaps hold is it seems to be based in volume from what i can tell it does that help the situation there it's a boat how whether it does or doesn't or whether a different kind of structure might help with of that program might help with diversion you know they have a action and again the thinking on that was it's you know you go to a multifamily it's in one spot you describe in a way you go and again the what they did taking center consideration was the amount of contamination we have to deal with so we probably spend twice as much time on the multifamily as we do on the curbside because we do both and but the way it is would it work if the incentive program were based on a star separation model and lower contamination model not not in a punitive way but it wouldn't provide more funding if you got paid more for less contamination with you know my i mean i can understand why they got the contamination clause in there it's especially now with the way the market is i mean you know could you imagine getting all the thousands of tons of material and there's you know the markets are so bad i mean it's it's it can't be a whole lot of fun on their end so in times when when the markets are this this tight the contamination always becomes an issue when all the brokers are looking for material contamination saw such a big deal but now is the way it is contamination is a real big deal so i would imagine on their end they struggle dramatically with the contamination so course to keep their cost al they want to try to pass that works just a little bit more harmony because it hasn't been combative but it just has the potential to be kind of combative changing gears a little bit what do you find when you go out to the various sites about the physical space allowed for recycling and organics and all of that because some buildings some facilities have the space and some don't and so we've talked a little bit about how do bylaws need to change for building new buildings to to make sure that they have spaces for recycling and proper waste  so really i can't remember the last time the space was an issue i say if if we kept at the containers inside there i wouldn't call the pound we just put them on the outside the compound and seems to work pretty good up maybe in the new song with and plan i guess the word i'd like to say and hope this is what we're working towards is just a model where all parties kind of collectively work together to come up with solution and exactly what the solution is i don't hundred percent know yet but if we work towards something where all parties are are all part of the the solution i think would have a lot more long term effect that's why i'm hoping to see out of it just a final question that's come out for us in same n b c is there anywhere at all you don't find plastic banks no i mean we've i've got i've got huge no plastic bags right on all my big steel bands on and so yeah that's that's a big challenge i don't know if that's going away once we put the signs up it probably went down about seventy percent so we're not dealing with this much of it but to get it all out of there it's it's not real i don't think that's going to happen yeah it's pretty monumental task there they're in every body covered in clauses in their place and we see them at the they are you all the time where they're supposed to be and also where they're not supposed i think they have to get rid of them out of grocery stores and so people couldn't get them i think that's what would that's what would have the law show up in the recycling and but the problem is just so cheap to make a comparison to i think even the paper bags right so yeah if there's still good you could take them to a thrift shop and then hopefully the next person you know when it starts to get a little ratty you know we'll bring it to the n r a ok program plastic bags are a huge source of revenue for us it's really important for us to get plastic bags back in so we notice them everywhere we go whether it's institutional commercial whatever we noticed them everywhere because they are used for other other things besides just taking your groceries home which is good you know reuse is good but when you're done with them the n r a is a really good place to  bins things like batteries c f l holes and stuff like that i don't know we don't really have time to time to list every but that's something that for people to check out certainly and you can go to