happen in i think it was it was such a traumatic event the nine hundred and eleven you know catastrophe here in new york but in some ways i think it's allowed people to move from that dimension of of light to a to  more from my perspective constructive attitude a fight i believe that fight and flight yeah and let me introduce you ok and walk i'm very much the conversations the pleasure of walking to the program frank muralitharan morality has been a guest in the past neither dear friend of harbinger of the end of a of an emerging police state the bill confluent others used to warn us about for a very long time and more recently become very involved in actively so center in terms of the new york nine eleven truth movement and with that introduction frank buckley once again very much a conversation going on here in my town it's great to be with you again it's my good pleasure maybe we could we got in fifteen minutes we're going to talk because i know we're coming up the th anniversary which is just going to be a few days it's hard it's difficult oh it's quite in body of decision making and yeah you know but i was determined there was no way in the world i was going to go you know shoot and kill other people who i had nothing no particular beef with and to have them shoot at me  that was that but i did it put me on the road i was a philosophy and theology major put me on a road towards a vocation that that mixed up spiritual religious sensibility concerns philosophical  so i mean it wasn't so much that but i i think it it did in the in the kind of in cult case within me a sense that a right and wrong and a sense that the spiritual values were ultimate and that you know that beneath all this you know that that the the the violence in the world was such was so much of a was an illusion or was not so much of that allusion but was a sham or if we yeah that behind that yeah it was within the priesthood right as the really the only place to go it was like i was it's so much called although that became more operative for me later in the sense of calling but really it was seem like a natural thing for me to heavy duty hard they'd that made it i would i yeah it was for me it was well if it was common sense that that or if from from my perspective in any way that jesus was a revolutionary i think he was what he was any money fri iraq he was a friend of the poor although he was he sat down with everybody and that's kind of what i liked about him he wasn't sectarian in that way he sat down with everybody and he dealt directly with people's hearts don't like a host of our spiritual leader of the buddha or whatever secular leaders down through the ages they've not reduced into the ages because it's all geared toward the complete opposite in terms everything is served by those who are already powerful yeah well i think almost every political economy in the world of and eleven namely that the official story is a lie and that elements within our own government and our intelligence community were involved in orchestrating setting up letting happen which ever work making half semantics works for you  that there's a lot more to this than meets the eye but that movement of truth nine hundred and eleven truth take the nine hundred and eleven dollars out right and generalize it in terms of a movement of truth or i then we begin to get at what is in fact i think the potential for more generalized movement and call it a revolutionary movement but i think the idea of a truth movement almost in the gandhi or a sense ok yeah something that that i hope that becomes more extent more generalized in the future now bec responsibility for what's going on around us all this evil that that is taking place as while we in a sense allow it to perpetuate we allow for it to the extent that we remain passive right and if we eat this this idea ups of not only seeking the truth but seeking justice which comes with about as a result of the exposure of this the because as we say in the nine hundred and eleven truth movement truth is not enough we don't we don't only want  fits into your long term commitment ryans in justice right police state which you know we can summarize in terms of the militarization of the police the breakdown of the separation between the police and the military domestically i think that the the rulers the powers the elite the ones the movers in the shakers at the top the ones in control who are out of control they have an agenda which is to take over the the resources the oil particularly take over land it's really about that they want to seize various parts of the world build bases there defend it they have chinese in the soviet union up against the wall oh no a's they were to be in the driver's seat they know that their movement their agenda will  resistance at home not to mention around the world right so the police state is in a sense an apparatus to repress that that resistance so they were agenda that they know is coming it's tied in other words the the wars abroad a war at home right there are a leash and right between them to fight over there rather than hare well we're going to fight we're going to do this over there we're going to act unilaterally and pretend preemptively abroad that this is our agenda from the they they've been scheming this for consciousness and awareness people have been browbeaten in scared and so for journalists of the side not to cover stories not to you know not to expose little by little now particularly with nine hundred and eleven things are beginning to bubble up there's more mainstream reporting going on oh i that the whole thing is a lie as a lie and the whole the whole system by which we operate this society and our view of the world as an aside is out of touch with what's required it's archaic it's arcane it's an regime orchestrated against the interests of the of the the american people in the interests of the people of the world in order to rationalize and a war for oil deconstruct that and deal with that not only in terms of truth but in terms of just the right justice if we only want to know that these people that  we want to bring them to to the courts want to put them in jail we want to deal with this thing we want just truth not enough we want justice that will begin to open up the door that'll create a constitutional crisis and so forth  rather looking at it negatively yeah look at it pot as an opportunity right it's not all that good i think you have the world's people for the people of america to begin to step into real history where we can be maybe a new page in henry a page or in time to take advantage of what  few who rule and there's a few who rule now and it's not only in this country but it's in all the political economy all the political systems of the world you've got a few political that's the rule and they meet at hotels and they have made it and it serves maybe twenty percent or something and the trends are it's not serving the masses of the people because we don't have a system that's able to bring the masses up or include the masses and we never have had they've been like sheep that have been led around either coerced you know w emanated by p r campaigns and so forth and they're just seen that way up by a small group or rules and you've got that still now but that's no longer a model that is necessary not only that's there it's not viable in terms of survival of the planet but it has revolution taking place in which could human consciences begins to envelop and understand the possibilities for human emancipation globally and they understand that i mean no it's just that it's just a matter of reaching out and grabbing it a mental patient liberation perhaps a reduction in a way and that this is not and it is possible and it's now possible or may be required in a way that historically that something has changed one of one of the big things that changed in terms of design of the human condition is that we develop weapon systems that if they are to be unleashed in some spasm of hatred you know ninety nine you know the guns of august notion as i mean it apparently would mean that week and now find we've gone so clever we can now wipe out the whole species i think that event that's happened within our lifetime and it doesn't seem to be front and center enough and terms of the economy of the of the agenda much less what would be the opposite or the you know it to that destructive scenario which is possible that we have an incredible exponentially increasing capability to for ovide for everybody within a context that answers the ancient scourges and did not have to be constrained by our inability we know that we can provide that to happen right and a sense of paranoia about these masses that are going to cut off their head like i do would lower the sixteen it's time for the people to take control i think so time for people to understand that what we're dealing with is an archaic arrangement that it's an arrangement that even those people who perpetuate it in terms of what you're getting at that the military industrial complex and what used to be called mutual assured destruction or mad man i mean people who have the don't their goal to label the system med and purveyors of the system i mean this is a pathology this is a sickness this is an illness well that happened it with if we had only stayed contained but damn at nineteen o five along comes our nine signed with the special theory of relativity there's no inflection point this and how does will it be in having a system that's based on a symbiosis between profit making and making armaments of destruction ok the more the more profits you get the better derived from armaments  description the disruption and just fuels this this greed that's a that's a recipe for disaster right and that's what we're beginning to see and what's now happening to get it you're getting you're getting a reaction by those that are in charge of things that is almost touch i mean it's very it's almost like well they have money they have no imagination he yeah yeah you realize these people are close minded you know by definition their their their their agenda is about profit making as a maintaining the ship of state maintaining their power maintaining a their whole lives stay the course and so on and so forth they're blinded by their greed and they think they have a system that applies for the world in the same way that a lot of the colonial masters th functioning basically it terms of the what they know and they're just moving along and now you know it's maybe it's a question of generation of this generation's move you know they're moved out another generation moved in that things are will evolve in the in a better way to work coming out a contingency a situation where we meet like global warming is a good metaphor but there are a lot of metaphor yes or i'm just human consciousness and human awareness the truth people begin to understand that th power then we're going to begin to see change and that's what i've seen within the nine hundred and eleven truth movement and you've been involved with that nine hundred and eleven coming out a long history of a concern with social justice and they tied together you've been involved with that for a couple years now and you've picked up as many i've did a couple of nights eleven pm to seven am ships and i've written this up if people search my name and ground zero yeah which is the title of a brief essay that i wrote about that experience that time and out of your feelings and you know just basically what i saw what i and sixty seven stories worth of junk junk stuff yeah right and it was nothing everything was reduced to powder to find in dust and i remember not having any awareness of like now we talk in terms of controlled demolition yeah because i saw kevin  st responders had the d n a of some of the victims in their blood really right now think about it most of the victims are above where the planes hit right that's right that's right up and that's even a lot of the think about what happened yeah right the more you think about it the less likely to be crushed that it could be at the base of the building you know right they would be the police i read a police diary where this gentleman is talking about coming to the building coming to the world trade center he's crossing chamber he's right and i cross chambers street and i move and you know those was familiar with the streets you know he's still quite a ways away right and he says i noticed sneakers and clothing strewn on fire if you really want to get us a pic about these are probably the plum of the people that jumped so the people that remain in this building so suffice to say admission when i saw that i didn't it didn't make much sense to me that the way the buildings went down and so forth and i went there as i said i saw nothing but it was there was some questions in my mind like god this is strange but you know like everyone else it was very traumatic yeah so little by little i started to check the web and there were people out there doing investigations some people early on were involved years ago because i have access to to the the some of the rooms at st mark's we started a program every sunday night where i know i've been brought in resources contacted people around the state city around the state around the country who were involved in this and we provided a venue for a weekly sharing of information and films and so on and so forth around nine hundred and eleven truth and there's been an increasing amount of evidence that comes from all sides because of that is the big the speed of communication yeah the the there are now a dozen credible watchable films an equal number of very very powerful well researched important reasonable person there's that at least a dozen different points of entry for warnings dozens of four warnings that came in you know world trade center seven how did this building go down how did these two world trade cent into collapse what what was going on there fuel had never brought down steel framed buildings in the history of steel frame building that's right what's going on there they burned yet not ours yeah but there's there's all these profit making going on the th the th and the ill and the morning  th all sorts of machinations going on people who were told not to go to work that they ashcroft wouldn't take a plane i mean there's all this stuff that's going on no matter how you come at it the b b c reports that five or some that  no way they could have tried to do something like that without knowing they were going to be caught at it because there'd be too many things that trip over so it's absurd that the it is so john you will observe people who take that position genuine there are many people that do grassy knoll and you go but they're saying that this thing if it were to come to be the case it would be so disruptive of the national psyche that it would bring utter chaos and the society could not function if this were coming to be will bring chaos or the truth will will somehow become an obstacle of that blood letting in iraq i say bring it on i say let's have more chaos but they're going to be saying well i'm just trying to think what they would say they say as you can't let there are people in positions of responsibility who let's say no all these things there was gulf of tonkin there were thing they know these things but there's a larger issues involved than the simple thing that the people here things that they are trying to get  but the truth will not set you free the truth will set loose a chaotic system that will bring the demise of the whole social order and that kind of an argument that is here you can't you will learn language on t v but i think that's so project secret because you had to keep it secret and you wouldn't want it out you know this time that there are secrets that are kept they have confidentiality they have stamps top secret they have all this kind of write up or to keep it so you can't have s that this terrorist apparatus there that is about fomenting terrorism not only at home but in places like iraq let me ask you is it it that's the apparatus that has to be exposed ok and that's the chaos or the has to be ended ok and well meaning anything that goes to saying well we sanction that's that is quo and we allow for the destruction and the murder of three thousand dollars of our own citizens because there was some sort of higher value yeah well that would that and then like we had in germany a nazi party they took over and they wrecked havoc and that kind of thing but then it wasn't i what i'm getting at is is that the republican party or the neo con few that run everything that  now done it think or is it the system itself both now which is the so if you think it's not the system itself the system itself is basically good the constitution of the united states of america the declaration of independence the george washington did the cherry tree and told so young all these kind of narratives we live by that that system is basically good you know we're good d and now we've got a bunch of bad guy we had mccarthy remember how it got on me there call and tell pro all that kind of stuff right we had that but that the system is good and if we just get rid of the people that are the bad guys who did this bad thing went over the top we'll be able to do it unless they were something called the democratic party and it would get us in we'll be the good ones will serve the interests of the whole and we cannot allow the very system if it is a systems problem it's a larger system you can't allow that kind of con chaos because there will be anarchy and we will not be able to have a society that can function and that's the larger good against which you would have to hide the truth that you're trying to make out there was no i understand your feeling in that position i what i would say is that the the system as you're defining it because i when you said system i was thinking the economic system questioned by the requirements of the zite guys because even that side of things the responsible other a proper loyal opposition does not have a vision that is relative and so you're talking about not just that kind of a change political that we've had throughout time w group comes in so you're talking about questioning the whole system by which the planet is operating and that's something they don't have a vision to address right so they see it like louis the th in the verse side palace when they're setting up the guillotine in the yard we exactly that's what i'm trying to say this is that is why some people are going to object to it from a sense of a higher responsibility let's try and get the republican order to try to make some changes or do since dec two fingers so yeah but the understand what i'm trying to know i do but it's so it becomes  byzantine it becomes a sanction for the status quo in the end because when it when the when the rubber hits the road and we're talking about nine hundred and eleven truth for example you know well we don't we can expose this because it will be too disruptive that were true then ok back in the days of j f k well we can expose this now because we'd be disruptive we're no longer there we're at a critical moment right now i agree with you but i think we're going to have moment is very very hard to suck it up  and we have to we have to face the fact that there is nothing more important right now than dealing with the truth of the murders that took place down at the world trade center and who perpetuated and brought about that crime what if that time of vietnam and then on their side they were saying then that we're getting a little bit of side because some things that even at the time of vietnam there are things that have changed since then but they said that if they fall in name holbrooke on the other day there's absolutely no question that we have to do it it is a crucial interest that we have he was talking about lebanon for instance as well on what's going on in misrata and all that kind of stuff and the support of israel but that's i think it's absolutely essential because we have a value we are legitimate our system that system is more important than the verities of the political leadership that might make a little mistake but the system we have is historically legitimate we're bringing democracy to the world we're bringing wherever help of the error they're built into and there's pressure being put on them now and we're saying why doesn't the world just understand we're bringing you a good world we are the leader it's like the white man's burden remember well whatever the colonial attitude we don't have a vision that is relative to what the world needs or not to go there in the name of justice or even in the name of the fishnets it is so inefficient to have the in you know the system that doesn't allow so many of the people to survive and thrive to have the capability of providing it is they don't have the vision is what i'm trying to say then where is the vision coming from and where the critique from the intellectuals is relevant to that larger issue that's not it's not any different there than here they're not interested in export democracy it's just the same way they're not interested in having democracy function at home it's a total it's hypotheses if they were interested in having democracy at home they wouldn't be rigging elections at home they're rigging elections at home  context so this system is in place now the way of socially organizing and so forth is out of touch it's not just the american system it's not just the oil barons that the system of understanding the evolution of consciousness and what's taking place in a large he used to speak about the a make a point there was a right of convergence and transform asian coming out of two hundred thousand years of human history do you think we may be coming to the good way to put it is it that a very huge thing i th huge where are these very human where are we getting the vision of that kind of transform ation on the positive side right from the intellectual communities other than pointing at the nefariousness of those who are running things now without a vision where is the countervailing vision coming from of an alternative that could subsume right that outdated alan johnson regime system that isn't coming from people who were involved in the struggle for truth who are able to see opposite of that with the opposite or the appropriate understanding of what's going on or narrative a very handsome narrative of what's going maybe even on to spiritual things like conscious yes maybe we're transcending scarcity yes i think that is as happened something that has not happened in history i think this is how and maybe we're coming into a new relate maybe we're speciating we're coming into a new relationship to the universal mind or an opera or a mysterious univers think what's happened is that those people who are able to receive an invasion alternatives you know on a global plane who are spiritually oriented and so forth have become or are separate from those people who are we have a long tradition of socialist thinking for instance we have well not only that but the talking the thinking more specifically ok for more immediately in terms of the the nature of the the we need trauma center kind of the judicial the right the christian right and so on i'm shifting a bit here gets into something about the apocalypse and you know we that's a rationalization for the current approach apparatus in the mideast as revel israel go through this trial  rapture don't forget what they were really afraid of is an apocalypse of peace well that might well that's what they're really afraid of people who are vested in the old system are worried that you if you're going to have something new it should be some hints of what that new would be only the fact that those like them is there are they the people who make the revolution are being liberated the masses of the world maybe eighty percent of the world are ill served and the trends are not well d to being able to be well served and they've never been well y they've always been wallowing around in the mud and everything but if you have a thing where there's going to be a qualitative change from a system to keep the lights on and that kind of thing right there ought to be some hints of what that alternative would be if following upon the shock waves ok things showing that the shouldn't be safir right so that's the st thing but more generally right maintaining the lie and maintaining the chaos of the evil is much harder to do then it will be to reconstruct our world based on humanity love justice and care for each other that's a lot easier you think so yeah because that's what we're about we're functioning right now in a way that is not natural consciousness and the liberating way within an ecological context that would be not only transformative and liberating of the mass of the people who've been so screwed over by a system coming out of history but will also be so comprehensive appropriate as to be able to be understood by those responsible for the historically inherited pattern in the end they will be a lagging indicator because they are conservative anchored in the history out of which were emerging and that would be the hope of what this whole nine  mean we might make this get over toward the convergence point and make a point young mr i think shine a limit on that one has it may sound like it's over over doing it but it's so new markets a spark we've got to say goodbye frank because we're series of events film speakers all towards deconstructing the official cover story from my level and get at the truth and bring those of the perpetrators of the crime that just ok and also perhaps as you're in a new kind of order that we can begin to get a vision of drew liberat is really a play your pleasure haven't said for come back into my tune in will coming back tomorrow and once again thanks will be