very much conversation pleasure welcome to the program and inspiration to me into a great number of people in new york and around the world and that's being the reverend joseph ben david he's the senior minister for the church of humanist human ism and he continues and joseph ben david walker very much so good to see you again so right now we said we said it off there we wanted to talk to you and we can talk to you we could we could talk to you for many many different dimensions i know but maybe we could share maybe you could just briefly ok share your background born and raised a little bit and then we'll get into that but we want to get around to some of the thoughts that you spent a good deal of time in israel and in palestine and in the holy land so we want so you know i was actually good people yeah objectively yeah but they isolate that themselves completely from the other population now you were j talked about this because they think they're so superior and every group seems to have reasons for thinking of themselves in terms of they're as human beings as appear exactly our team is number one or even football team exact baseball teams were number one and they get so exercised over that idea about separating themselves from other human beings for some reason why do you think goods are the basis of nationalism should not be singled out in that respect that and what about a sports team a sports team or a boxing match or the best golfer in the world or something to that separates people from the collective humanity but what are these forces and we call it healthy competition maybe some of the metaphor those sports competitions are things to sublet made those things do you think those are results of ancient tribal or maybe caveman of left out and everything is and it used to economics right so but the truth is that both are right and if you take one just one of those categories then you who are the other day i was talking to the you know the leaders in china and everything you know he was invoking karl marx and saying we are a socialist country we have a socialist answer against the imperialist and i was really having a hard time how can they say that when they've got all the earmarks of trillions of dollars of imperialistic happened all reporting into them they got gated communities s u v s eighty seven thousand so i think that it was it was imported from europe into china i would model and that they have it as a as a as a religion they don't want to hear anything in the name of cheese gong or in the healing gong and so forth me and that's because their religion is marxism and they're still preaching that religion in the face of the fact that a they they stand up against their they just awfully look like good old imperialistic for example right now i believe that the highest expression of consciousness has to do wit that's true but a is also a little bit b and b is also a little bit any and any can be a lot of b and b can be a lot of a and actually in an extreme case fascism and you know the worst of divorce but from the point of view of this dichotomy you know he had everything for supporting the hearts and you know it's a tragedy and you cannot truly condemn anyone you can condemn only when you see one side if you don't see both sides you see that both in some and as good and in some orbited political power that's right and not just a march or rosenberg i don't know your believes and nonviolent communication but they cite people that were in camps and work camps or concentration camps who treated so badly and yet they were able to keep empathetic understanding of the people who are actually violating their human rights in a terrible way when they keep on opening on the fact that there is a reason for that and to not get into that vengeance yeah hold of thinking which is part of a kind of wisdom it seems to me in a way because we are after all all caught up within the same system and some people have been take place like a stage play yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah yeah yeah it was all life and it shows hitler not as a totally crazy person but as on history and then comes jesus ok this is jesus and now comes jesus as he was he comes out and he looks you know like jesus you could cost him yeah yeah yeah oh boy see we had some film we weren't able to get other occasion yeah yeah and so jesus comes in the st think that he says is people go you are  cause i never said peace thinks what they said about me i rise of course i knew departure of love and that love can heal but i haven't i didn't hear write one message is to save the war and that is a good i was a bit through reason and love through science through the arts through psychology through no because she's a human is through a human as being secular completely and none of that religious stuff or none of that spiritual stop need apply and that sort of thing but i want to maybe you could talk to that your spiritual human where that i don't  most people are still paired up is that like was one of the things in my early transformation i could go back to that there was a time when i wanted to become a successful businessman because my father was perhaps a liberating of the human spirit in a way yet it is no precedent for except in a subsuming way coming out of human history but like leaving the womb after a period gestation we may be coming to a new relationship to the evolution of consciousness itself but a deceased privilege to be at a time of such awakening perhaps people have dreamed of this but it may be this time when we get to the point where the weapons can destroy the technology so powerful for providing good and ancient scourges answered and allowing for the full realization of the full biography and the poor potential of all members of the human society