in business is now about responsibility and we're going to talk with the world's expert on it carol sanford right here today carol well thank you but i'm not an expert stan the reason i don't like the term expert is it sounds like you know more than other people i guess if i had to say what are my profession to add or what do i hope people think about well it would be more like how do you think more systemically more about innovation and you become the expert on your business well we're going to let you decide if she is an expert or not because here is the web site up on the screen carol sanford dot com in and of itself is an education but we're going to be talking a lot about the responsible entrepreneur that's a book that you've written and one of several that you've written but it's the latest tell us about that the responsible  entrepreneur i wrote because i heard people using the term entrepreneur and what i would say was a small way to me entrepreneurship is kind of a way you view the world it's a way you take on the world it really didn't have as much to do with starting a business or the stage of a business as it does whether or not you really have intention to change the course of history so i wanted bigger in it i wanted everybody thinking much more with personal agency much more taking on something we're unique and distinctive about them and making a bigger difference with their life well i guess the common meaning or at least from the public standpoint of entrepreneurs somebody who has an idea about a business and wants to go started and then go make it happen to make lots of money  sure i'm not negating those i think there are levels which one can go after entrepreneurship i've seen entrepreneurial moms who decide they're really going to innovate in how they raise children and they're not going to be raised the way they were and it's really difficult because you tend to follow whatever pattern you were taught so to me entrepreneurs often break the pattern so they may have an idea about a business or the man i have an idea about a nonprofit agency and what they're doing is going after it with everything that's in them that unique which gives them the staying power and hopefully when you get to the idea of responsible entrepreneur you're doing it in a way that also makes a difference and makes a better world for all of us who defines a responsible where you can go back to the foundation of the word which means to be able to respond to literally to take into account and so for me i think an individual has to continually do that i don't think there's a definition in the council that we go to and if there is it makes me nervous what i want are people to ask the question what effects am i having on everything that i touch and affect with all my decisions with all my task with all of my interventions so who decides is really us as a human being in fact my next book is called the responsible human oh and i want to go to kevin member the gentleman's name i think his name is martin squarely from pharmaceuticals who has a product that should cost sixteen dollars and fifty cents so i actually don't even go try and figure out that for people because the important thing about what i do is i don't advocate and i don't judge others i educate so all of my interventions if i had a chance to meet with him i would not say you bad person i would say could we sit down and just look at your business and look at and i would educate him how to think more systemically how to refer in fact i can give you examples from where i've done that repeatedly with dupont titanium dioxide people which comes out of mining you pull down ninety percent of a mountain when i got there and i didn't walk in and say you bad people you're taking down ninety percent of a mound i said i'd like to teach you to have a business that can really be innovative because it was a big commodity so i started educating them about how to think about business about a year within a year they were starting to find how it is they could innovate we create a proprietary technology that gave them the lead and they still have the lead in titanium dioxide business but they also took down ninety percent less of a mountain cleaned up all of the local villages and i never advocated for any of that i never judged to them what i did is educate have a think and they change what they saw which is what matters well i know you don't like the term expert but i'll ask it anyway are you an expert i don't know anything about things like that i don't go look at anything and tell people what to do i educate them about how to think and i say not pick something that's driving you crazy so if i were going to work on efficiency what i would do to teach them to think about it is i would say let's look at the difference when effectiveness and efficiency so effectiveness means are you producing the effect for the customers for the community you want to because if you start working on efficiency you may cut out the things that make you do it in less time but it may be the very thing that need to produce the effect for your customer that made them loyal to you so i say everything that doesn't produce effectiveness is inefficient ok so if we need to merge the two words together and be efficiency now like effect in this inefficiency is just a step on the way let's go to some things that people are saying about here's the new york times best selling author says carroll says that this book about is about being responsible and it is but it's also about being courageous i world domination now what do you mean it's full millennial it's just full of people spirit full of people with great ideas including chris and what he means is i want you doing the thing that would actually really change something that would really have an effect where the being a good entrepreneur which supports just your family and something local can you know that even when you're doing something locally even something for you if you think about it it can have a big effect and so when he he doesn't wri for people he told me that i said chris you're going to love this book and as i said i do know him he read it and he said this is how you do world domination i don't know whether i would use that term but i say how do you change the course of history and make it productive and whole for everyone who touches zuckerberg in the game of facebook they definitely have changed history happening absolutely google has changed history apple has changed history yes i do think that they intended to do that yes i know for sure s jobs is an apple because i taught in san jose state in a master's program that we had lots of his folks coming in and i went and hung out at apple it was very exciting i got to hang out in the rooms with steve jobs and the word continually slee was make a dent in the universe make a dent in the universe and if you asked steve what he meant by that he said do something that will really stand for all you know for a long time not to start it all time so he intended that google's the same way larry page and everything we work on there he says ten x i wanted to x return and i want it to make a difference and he learned this in montessori schools i wanted to have that big a difference and the ten x is not for google it's for the community or the customer or whoever it is you set out to do something i don't  know personally but i know the other two and i can say with all intention they set out to do that all right let's go to another quote about the book all right this is from rebecca henderson from harvard and she's got a long other title she says this book for people who create enterprises that create good work in the world so is it about a bunch of do gooders now in fact do that is too small what rebecca knows she did case studies and looked at my work and what she found was that it's a way you have a business that is effective and efficient it stays in business a long time but it does it in a way it's the house so for me responsibility is not the what it's the how so if you learn to run a really good business you would certainly run likely as you could you personally would and most people would you would run it with caring what the effects were making good decisions so responsibility is the how of it and what she's actually talking about is that the she often says also that i'm building the business of the twenty first century and have been for forty years and people are catching up with me and what that really means is so that humans are worked with in a whole way but good is usually like there's less bad there's good and then there's what makes the system whole and complete so good is usually what humans think it's insufficient to having a planet which is healthy in a society which is healthy i think that if you were to ask the general public in the united states and it may be a function of media i'm not sure  about that business is less bad rather than good well most people i think would say it's actually bad well yeah and they would probably say responsibility is about less bad i think that's true you know what's really fun for me is i have never worked that didn't want to really be responsible not part of that is the people who bring me in but i think that there's bigger intention some people know how to do so i often say if you really spend time looking at what people are seeking to achieve it has higher member of that movement has written a book about the puts leading figures steve jobs oprah winfrey richard branson tesla foundry long musk seven generation founder geoffrey hollander and more in context and helps you realize you're in it with them i was going to ask you this how do you get to play with all those people i had a blessed life to tell you the truth and i have actually never worked with oprah she's the one that i didn't have any access to but i have so much respect for her i think that all my work has been by referral and some of those were more in depth interviews a lot of them are the life i live working with them because i get to be inside of google innovation labs i think that the fun part of the world that i have is that people refer me to other people make it completely transparent he helped found the un global compact and he did that out of work and that showed up and we developed into pot where we became transparent to the board of directors by bringing in people from all walks of life  and gave them access to the company to interview and they wrote reports to the board of directors it was a funny little thing it had no advocacy in it at all the education here's what we found and it changed what the board of directors thought about their  dupont because it made things transparent even to the board i mean you think they would know but they didn't they did not know and so he then chad and a couple other folks convince the board of dupont and a couple other folks to found the un global compact and the only thing it took to transparent so again transparency and education change far more than we know advocacy usually slows it down well i understand that's you know out there right now we know that a bunch of people are watching or say wow i've got a great idea and i think i could fit this well let's just talk about the top five ok errors entrepreneurs make well let's take a couple to start with one of the primary ones is that they tend to go copy how they're going to structure their business from business is that been around for a long time so they put hierarchies in place from top to bottom layers way too many people and they disconnect the people who are actually making product or delivering services from what the idea was behind the business so this inability to have people have a personal connection forever is a really important here and i spend a lot of time undoing it when i go into companies that are growing you know google's now getting a little older it started to put in too much hierarchy and the minute you do that you kill personal agency and the people who are there so to me that's the number one error the second thing they tend to copy or they read and think is a good idea is they borrow behavior old science technologies those sort of things like rewards recognition because what they don't know is all of that research came from the study of rats so if you manage rats all of it larry is just perfect if you don't manage rats it is in accurate and it's the wrong way to manage so not actually understanding how humans work is the second error something like give you a third one takes a while do all these but the third one is that they don't understand they need to let you get in the lives of the people they're serving not ask those people to tell them what they want so the big three that you mentioned earlier facebook and google and then i mentioned apple and some others they don't do market research they do customer feedback because first if those people can give you that in research and in feedback they can give it to everybody so there's nothing differentiates you secondly people are very bad at actually telling people what they want third by the time it gets to you through some person who has done the survey and then amalgamated in the past it to market in the past of some other people it doesn't look anything like what the people said who didn't actually say something that would generally be helpful marketing people to change a lot but even if they don't it's so distant so you've got to keep people who are actually delivering the service in touch immediately most of  ideas come from the people who are designing talking with people talking with customers so it's at least take those three and they can get some more on the website can an entrepreneur be a micromanager and be successful no i assume by that you mean manage all people below them no there's nobody in the world even parents can't be good micro managers and be a good parent i've noticed that yeah because what really keeps people alive and responsible and what we're trying to do when we manage them is control them we're losing all the creativity and and reflection they have on understanding the market and so if you find yourself micromanaging you have designed the wrong kind of work system you've put in the management system that will destroy entrepreneurial energy because you want everybody in the business thinking entrepreneurially so stop that micromanaging whoever you are well so so then what a good manager does that is trust people oh much more than that much more and in some ways managers go away and the companies that i work with even very large ones we redesign work so that people are responding to the stakeholders to the business so i help people establish something called promises beyond a bonus and promises beyond able to her where people say for this customer like apple did this all the time for this customer group college students who are really trying to create all sorts of media of all sorts i want us as a group he would say to his team to promise to figure out how to do that and different people would take on different parts of that promise actually once you get that spirit and energy dedicated to somebody who's going to use it you don't need managing anymore you need people who can manage the the promise getting delivered over time i convert all the managers into something i call resources resource means to return people to themself as the source and it's their responsibility to build capability so that's the number one thing it's not just to trust them you don't have to do that but you have to build capability to think bigger and bigger and bigger and that's why i say i'm an expert in thinking how do you educate people to think about the whole i say build the mind of the c e o in everyone not in just the top let's talk about some of the types of entrepreneurs they talk about in the book the first one if we can get to that is and these are the archetypes the the realizing entrepreneur which you say is an industry game changer so let me first tell you why i came up with these archetypes because that's really important to how this happened  reservations he taught my grandfather that in order to rebuild any community any nation you have to have these four roles playing out that they call them warrior clowne her and had man and i say or had woman but you had to rebuild a community with those so the i've used those for years to teach organizations how to have everybody playing those roles you're not one of those are types you don it like a mantle like superman like wonder woman and you know that you get bigger and able to manage more when you're wearing that mantle so i felt like that was a good way to provide leaders a way if you're going to take on these big ideas i want you to take on change the course of history you've got to have a cape you  something that gives you that energy and these were i changed the names from warrior clan her head man to the ones that we're going to talk about here so the first one as you said realisation and that is to help people realize what it is this going on in industry it's an industry a game changer so i use steve jobs plus a couple of ordinary folks and jobs did say i want to change this industry and then i want to change another one and then i want to and this was when he was young even four they fired him the first time so i w stories because i was close to apple early and about what i felt like really went on in the new movie is just so far off of my experience of steve jobs i feel like it's somebody who had a filter that they shouldn't of had on because what he really was doing is he was tenacious in determining to change an industry and what you have to do to do that is you have to perfect lives of people you serve you have to have their lives become more extraordinary that's how you design then you will change an industry and as you notice everybody will follow so into you think about the industry as a whole and i'm going to impact investor when i interview entrepreneurs and i only do growth stage entrepreneurs but i always the ask them how are you going to change this industry and they say well i'll be happy if i can do just  piece i say good luck because i'm not interested in people who don't really want a whole industry to move otherwise you're one product an alternative product a good alternative product but ninety m percent of the industry  know the intention of what you're talking about with the way i would say that is that they find out who they deeply really are i call it finding their essence finding their singularity the minute you start to live from that you become bigger you fill more space because now you're you you're not copying you're not looking at some competitor you're actually bringing the fullness of you and it tends to quiet the personality that's been conditioned into life what your parents told you to do your teachers and it lets the you know some people call it the real you to me it's the essence that was born with you and the minute it wakes up it feels like a bigger and bigger because you're actually growing so that a hundred percent actually is more than it was before and now it's more so in order to make you happy does someone else in order to be a responsible  d do they have to build something brand new or can they just compete better a building something that someone else has already built well that's not where you start i mean it's not about new or start it it's about starting out in the world and saying what would make that more extraordinary so if you look at let me say colgate palmolive because i worked with him in south africa during the transition out of apartheid and so we we could have said well should we do new products or should we do improve all products we said or stadio say sos who is the general manager who led it said i want to build a great company or scuse me i want to build a great country while we build a great company now do everything do a product but he said now what does it take to do that and they decided well and everybody in the business had a promise beyond able to including i said michelle who ran a detergent tower and he said i want the children's oral health to be improved radically and so i went to one alexandria township so in some ways you could set well that was improving but what the way he did it was he brought dennison he brought women who could sell the product they became educators to teach it and he tracked completely how they were doing now they sold quite a bit of toothpaste and they sold quite a bit of mouth prints but what they did was took on the change of the life force of children and then eventually others in the community and they just happened to use their business to pull it off let's talk about the reconnection of a about society yeah each of these so there's another piece that helped you understand before i found that if people really want to make some big change there were four doors or domains you could go through one of them was through an industry and that was pretty hard all by itself the second one to which you could pick a social system like justice system or a taxing system or the economic system and you could say in the way i do work i want to shift that system now the funny thing is you have to already have been a leader in your industry pretty much well but off or you have to be seen and perceived as having leadership of the industry so one of the stories i tell in there is a young man named kip barr tough and kip wanted to change the fishing industries relationship the system that they had for fishing in relationship to massive sellers like cosco when wal mart he formed co op so he actually restructured something to form co ops of all the people from the boat captain to the people who convert the fish and into sales and into cosco so he changed the system by which people were willing to buy fish by putting a q r code on it so as to make about their phone an extra they can see what the mineral content where it was caught who the captain of the boat was the next time anyone came into cosco and couldn't find a cure or could they were looking for some and they said why don't all these others have q r codes on it he changed the system by working out any also gave all the fishermen the people who are in that industry in some place for moving is the cultural paradigms and beliefs we hold so that's how we get to racism right i mean that's how we get to sexism we have all these images of who people are how the planet works and the minute we're holding those it's really difficult to view or to get change that you can go advocate during a presidential election that certain cultural beliefs are not true and what you do is escalate the differences and people get into their boxes all right so the people who work here as  crossed the entrepreneur help us understand we're all in it together therefore it's reciprocal i'm tell i tell one story in the book about one of my google guys just amazing he's decided to transform our relationship to food on the planet and our beliefs about food about the health of food in our relationship to food it's amazing what he has done already in third world countries even in the u s in terms of bringing research together all these people have been in separate pockets working on it and helped us understand our response to with earth and with supply systems so that's why the rest prosody entrepreneurs they change our beliefs and how it is we see that we're all in it together and depended on one another you know if i go to a global food company well like mcdonald's i know that i can go to to mcdonald's anywhere in the world and it's going to taste the same and i suspect that's probably because of whatever they add to it probably i don't  know and you know it's just a guess on my part if i were to go and i'm really kind of into eating natural foods right let's just take sweet potatoes something that i've carried in the passage you like to yeah yeah yeahs it's starting to taste a little different to me and i'm wondering is it me or is it the way they're grown or so i i actually don't know content of things like that what is important to me out of what you just said though is that we work with businesses to understand what their uniqueness and distinctiveness is as a business but also a row material they have so we could be looking at sodium cyanide which i work with or we could be looking at yams that are grown in the ground and one farmer should be able because of knowing the soil they have knowing how it is that the essence of yammer sweet potato works should be able to create increasingly unique and distinctive yams while making the soil healthier at the same time while making the farmer healthier at the same time so it may be i think that maybe what's happening and what you're talking about is we move toward commodifying things so all sweet potatoes are yams kind of get alike and the minute they get commodified they all go downhill from there because it's not differentiated let's talk about the regenerative entrepreneur yeah this is a governance  game changer not government got another right the reason i pick this term for this is i think that there is much can be done by looking at the governance agreements that we have like what our constitution says what our regulatory says what our courts say and find out how it is you can enter in a way you can make something great happen so larry page said you know we normally what we do with the regulations we have around going public for a company is you have someone who knows all the rules it's a very complicated things so you have goldman sachs j p morgan they go and they own it they sell it to their friends to their connections and so by the time it's gone public all the big same big players own and he said i don't like that but i actually understand something called the dutch auction and the dutch auction is where people bid even down to the lowest level i could own stock i did i bought stock when it first went out you bid on a level that you want and it's protected from being able to be throw you out have only the top folks because they don't own the rights that's taking a regulatory and making magic out of it right really regenerating the concept that was in the regulatory process they did the same  thing looking at the f c c and it's why you and i can own our phone number and carry it around because they said i think i understand how the regulation works so larry page took it on we have almost no time left but i want to do this you've got a lot on carol sanford dot com including the blog yes to me but i have blogs podcast i blog guest blog for so many different places it has all of my speaking gigs one of which is here in seattle looking at the business of the future which is what rebecca henderson from harvard said that i was the  best at and i'll be speaking about that you can find out about those and sign up on my website carol sanford dot com and as we put it up on the screen we just want everyone to know this is the kind of thing that you have with an idea you can make it happen