and eleven truth movement that's getting a lot of legs and so forth now in the society i'm glad we're able to fit this in and welcome very much conversation i'm delighted harold very happy to be here with you and public access television which is be you know yeah they're going to do better anyway i appreciate if you'd bear with me because i have a sort of template with you to share where you're born and raised education a bit is the way to wade in sure and then we can talk about things that are of interest to you and of concern so forth but were  you born or raised in that kind of i was born in pasadena california you're in the day before pearl harbor as my dad would put it on how i graduated from south pasadena high school and attended princeton where i graduated with a degree in philosophy in  me to go to a great khali do yeah prince and gray and found him without impoverishing my father right and how long were you in the military i mean four years four years on active duty you would get the g i bill after you got out yet would that have helped present it was a very big thing it helped how did you come to focus on that did it come out of well i am lee setting or no not at all but by the my nd semester on i realized really was the a radically oriented i had a wonderful course and cultural anthropology the st semester which was very emancipating of rokia well yes absolutely that gets to be kind of comprehensive in the you know when i started going to the catalogue and circling all the courses that interested me and they were overwhelmingly theoretical and most of them were in philosophy or theoretical aspects of other disciplines or what i did was to program my courses so i was taking the theoretical and other disciplines in the philosophy courses as well what do they think it is that you were so interested in things theoretical as opposed to what well to call or well so rapidly exponential exist exactly you would master the methods by means of which that knowledge was acquired and enable yourself to go to any discipline and understand what's going on at least in a general way i say that's interesting i one time i think a friend who is an investment banker whose father knew no real weaner and claimed to have been in the room when they coined the term cyber i think in one thousand nine hundred and forty eight and he used to say information overload within a system permits pattern recognition so do you think your theoretical frame or looking at the methodology of the various disciplines rather than burrowing in depth yes you can go endlessly into every discipline but to recognize patterns between the disciplines is there to get a comprehensive overview or is that reaching beyond what you were really in no that's right headed i've had a special interest in newly emerging disciplines and in the sorting out their theoretical foundations as i've done in the case of computer science writing artificial intelligence arise cognitive science and i a now most recently evolution in mentality really important questions and the idea of how comprehensive came the vedic seva saying if i may the vedas have a saying that we have no there are they would say there are no academic disciplines think about that do you think there is no such thing in the university of the study of everything that would be all that is standard ebb surd particularly because people will study in great depth on a particular subject and with great airy dition and so forth but there's no there's not very much attention to a comprehensive overview of well let's just say for want of a better term everything that kind of reflective synthesis is usually presumed to occur if it ever does late in one's life when you're one is in a position to bring together the very desperate ins of what they have studied and who would have been our great compre that would be to use a term comprehensive us as opposed to a specialist via an academia as toward specialization it seems to have been the my particular linear progression and things came after the computer was st introduced it created great and you know that's right i give on i but him but i myself have been most drawn to the broader thinkers such as aristotle emmanuel keratin charles as percy great american philosopher i find who whose work on the nature of science provided a foundation for my work on the nature mind giver to pay attention to see peace you know and he said that to c adversion if you can bear with me in everything i like bucky fuller bucky fuller always called himself a comprehensive us you know he had a comprehensive overview of things and everything and some others did in their own thing but what do we what it word is there jim if you could for me that an evolution of knowledge and understanding and so forth and there are transformative aspects to the evolution of events in the universe so that the world of one thousand seven hundred is in many many ways different than the world of one thousand nine hundred the world in one thousand nine hundred is very different than the world of we live in now and so forth so you have a reality that has been changed or maybe through the technological extension of consciousness and the whole scientifically based projection of being able to affect the environment  that sort of thing it's an altered reality or it's a larger a matter of reality to the one that is normally assumed by people of hearing to the institutions that have been evolving through historical time now ontology when we say what what are we talking about what words do we have to understand that transformed reality that is not understood in the normal  way of thinking that is mad to the historical pattern but is not yet up into what is considered within our spiritual traditions and so forth you know metaphor spiritual vision short of that but does i have a notion of qualit e transformation that has occurred or do you understand what i'm saying and how do we well i put a word or a concept that i mean biggest change that maybe isn't immediately able to be understood because it's sense it's ahead of the historical institutions and mindset that lag behind a broader reality that is the spirits or the aspects of this that i would deal with yet include within on tala g doubting we see in between the broadest categories of the kinds of things there are such as abstract entities like numbers in or physical entities the occupants of space time were abstract entities can exert no causal influence but only logical relations obtained between them in the case of physical entities they can exert causal influence then i would analyze the nature of causation and the nature of laws within the constituents that hold the world together and whose discovery is really the principal objective of science itself ok but in my more recent work for example in a book i recently published and on the evolution of intelligence and how humans the only animals with the mind's eye spend some time talking about the difference between genetic evolution rye and cultural know maps theories i don't and but also fads fashions music art so forth right right in russia i mean it was useful yeah if they have a they have a culture or carriers of things that are very important area and that's right now some of the fundamental differences between genes and means are for example genes for an individual organism are transmitted just one thumb in your genes remain constant throughout your life memes can be transmitted repeatedly through your career and you all ideas and mindsets and paradigm that's right that i write we are very good at idea that we don't have to reinvent the wheel because we're born into a culture that has a t taint a certain status of development arise and therefore we're able to benefit from the particular level of development of that culture whenever we are born or perhaps be perhaps pushed the button put you to understand six hundred million years ago i saw thing on television a kind of great stuff on television  sick i think or six hundred million years go off for now was in the form of unicellular spongiform and there was going to be an evolutionary process that was going to you know come out in the many manifestations of fauna now is it like a  curtains and make this nice you know i'm saying and then but there would be an impetus to let's say let's get out here let's change is a movement to change with or to well what you're talking about is a causal interaction between organisms with certain properties or traits and environments and some of those environments are more hospitable to organisms with those traits and others less so on the so that when there's a better fit between the organism and the environment it tends to survive and reproduce and with not such a good fit then his prospects for survival and reproduction are diminish species two hundred thousand years ago that would seem wrong with you and we were uniquely able to extend our consciences into the environment it seems to me and make the environment different than like in the eden like sands was the lot of most of the creatures i mean we all know beavers build dams and birds make nests and so with but we really extended that to the max so we were able to create like gordon child used to say man makes the world and you can make the world different than in the sense as a given when you're in touch with that outer environment and sorrily and the like the creatures are we were when we were in nature but that's the beginning point for this system that we're talking about now two hundred thousand years ago in your estimation well he human beings as a species are very interesting because of our complex of yeah we are governed in our behavior by a combination of variables of the car his motives the beliefs ethics abilities and capabilities and we have greater cognitive versatility and behavioral plasticity than any other species which in depth right now enables us to adapt to a wider range of environments often by means of creating cultural forms of adaptation  tents houses cities cars all these things yeah right it's all an extension of consciousness and it's a technology that makes the cars can sense there were an extension of capability that is sort of in a very real sense unique to us in a way in terms of we've telescope to take and speak you've got the evolution of consciousness you've got the evolution biological evolutionary process on this planet in this universe and they're telling us now jim that we've got maybe parallel universes in the string they've got a telescope that takes the measure they have of the wham wilkins and something it takes the picture of the shockwave after the big bang within only two hundred thousand years of the big bang thirteen billion seven million years ago when this universe began as a singularity in the big bang that's pretty it that's pretty amazing ability to take the measure of things here about yes yes yes to get better you know one other thing and yes yes yes in unique about be able to speculate about but also test hypotheses about the origins of the universe or this epic in our history because yeah this cycle right bang expansion could lead to a contraction in a big crunch in another big bang so where are we now in the evolutionary course of events and so forth or can we put the human thing ario in that larger context and say we've got a beginning point for what we've been around we've been around it began two hundred thousand years ago and is there any evidence that we may be transcending two hundred thousand years of our human experience that we are having a breakpoint like eldridge and stephen jay gould's is the you know the evolution is that that you have quantitative changes in a system and the or might fear or yeah here although it's not universally shared is that the effects of the industrial you revolution are such that we're actually polluting our environment and it out that if we don't extinguish ourselves by for example nuclear warfare that we're go are harold that if this is a bona fide phenomenon the human species could lose its agricultural capacity within four years now that's absolutely startling and it seems remarkably to be related to the use of cell happen and it's not because we are going to him somebody said you will do you i will you will have to pry it from my cold dead hand before and i'll home i also happen to believe that global warming is a bona fide phenomenon not in standing that there are critics floating a qualitative new reality or an alternate reality than the commonly accepted notion of the context in which we are exchanging things political and otherwise each other what do we have history we have history and i know you james joyce it is a nightmare ok i are are we coming to a point of qualitative transformation after two hundred thousand years i suppose cro magnon cave people sat around and said this is really amazing times we live in are we really at a time and if there are what are the evidences for a qualitative not a quantitative community or a projection of historical patterns but they were coming to a time of a qualitative something that might be lo called a liberation or something from a historical context or how far can we reach out on that side of the equation which saw it beginning two hundred thousand years ago and now we're at a time of change because the changes in revolutions are coming exponentially in every discipline over the transom all the time days like a quickening in a pregnancy or something or how do you feel about that are we to point a major break when we have weapons systems that can apparently be modeled that they would destroy the whole species if they were unleashed well that's the direction i would go i think we're air area in which you have a measurable change that could be qualified as progress but represents an enormous threat to the human existence is in the area of technology surveillance upon us they have computers now they can perform a trillion operations a nd and we're getting up to the terabyte that's right anyone who thinks they're not using that to survey all of our polling calls and e mail and just is being naive they seek to they couldn't do that with smoke signals that's writers got started with pigeons back in the th century or so my great fear is that this advanced technology has the capacity to bring about an orwellian police state there are sorry nineteen eighty four every year just to keep the united states identical context but within a larger global context the whole evolution of this whole thing because gore always gets six billion heading for ten us is going to level off for years interesting point you might like which i discussed in my more recent book on changing what you have is evolution is something technically known as a satisfy seen or good enough operation bag is really fascinating to look at is a distinction that those who study rational decision making make because look if you are looking hero for the perfect woman the ideal woman to marry you radically you'd have to inventory them all every go to one were you know incrementally better than another in some respect it would be preposterous you could never accomplish it you never make a decision you never marry what we do in life mean you can't predict the course of evolution unless you can know the random occurrences of the accidents and the asteroids that might have the planet and all that sort of thing there are lots of factors that can bring about a rapid change in that i mean yeah but you know the thing i was getting at mean and if it is the case does it mean that we have weapons is not inflection points that there are of relativity or something but actually in the world systems that exist with all kinds of hatreds each and hatred still being in the wind and guns of do you think that is the case there would be a couple survivors in new guinea or something well you're not sure that the survivors are better off than those who don't survive on no it's environment no the british philosopher karl or popper or get ward to try to emphasize the importance of cultural acquisitions in one scenario everything is destroyed including the libraries in the other scenario the libraries survive and he asked this the con the blade in which scenario could humanity rebuild civilization more rapidly obviously if the libraries survive and that's because of course the cultural attainments of the past are recorded there yeah they were  burned that was a sad thing that yeah but if the species heath is this is the case others have said that had their modeling of what i'm getting at is in a certain sense i'm trying to make a case for the fact that we're like in the womb in terms of the evolution of events in this part of the universe and we've been gestating for two hundred dollars we were there was a consciousness that was characteristic go off to look at the sea and it was destined to be hom and now homo sapiens saving and that we may be coming to the end of what i believe in gestate period that had all these characteristics that you get a gun you talk about type one side and that sort of thing that we have a capable we have a technological capability there that apparently is it accidental marker in terms of evolution of consciousness that we now apparently have the ability which we didn't have in the nd world war as recently as the nd world war we could not we could bomb dresden we could bomb that we may have recent existential moment in the evolution of events in universe that signals this as a particularly significant moment like the water's about to break and we're about to come into a new relationship to the universe or something or speciation does that make any sense or is that just well what i would say is simply that we were in a very precarious situation where if we don't make decisions with consideration for ecological and evolutionary factors that we can actually bring about our own extinction and surprisingly rapidly saw i worry terribly about the state we are in i also believe my way that technology can have a profound negative effect on  consciousness our mentality in so far as for example television it seems to me has a dumbing down influence that the more you watch television the less you exercise your mind reading is a far higher form of intellectual engagement than his watching that one of the great things about the society in which we live i think america's a great country and you i think it's great it's got its problems but one of the things you can have disagreement like i disagree with you on that well i want  speciation basis that we're come that is a trend that will occur in all of evolutionary science makes sense there will be a time when we will transcend what we were as we transcended f and almost safe and there will be an altered relationship in terms of the evolution of kind of vitae that were over and able to overcome certain evolutionary obstacles we presently confront i mean if global warming is a bona fide phenomenon if disappears from kilimanjaro we're really altering the weather patterns of the fact every aspect of no dobs it wouldn't mean the end of the species no but it means consuming resources that were previously expanded to adapt to a certain constant  right requires reallocating resources which are precious which were wasting in hundreds of billions trillions of dollars on needless wars yeah two to enhance and benefit a very small group namely these powerful oil companies for example absolutely couldn't agree with your opposition is now just remastered it yeah ok i'm trying to reach for this thing about a transfer moment to moment they were in because i'm trying to get to what would be if there is unity yang or whatever in a in a quick ing sense not in the long term then one would be the lets say because the technology was it is not a one sided sword it's a two sided sword and there is the positive aspects of the technological capability that we have and many of our people comprehensive us and others would say we have a great now capability of providing for all of humanity within a context that is almost in liberating from what we've been able to do in the past we were constrained in the past by technology as we were protected in the destructive capability that we have a possibility of providing life support for all of the un at the within an ecological cont we have a tremendous positive capability full of the the characteristics of that reading of things rather than the destructive one that offset it in a positive manner my impression is of the problematical for the reason that the carrying capacity of birth which has to do with its capacity views in a sustainable fashion maintain a certain quality of life is such that if you wanted a population that was subsisting at the level of the pickle american to be sustainable indefinitely you're talking about a world population of the order of two billion not four five well there's different ways to read that isn't there and also what things there are available to do you think there's many things that are that are becoming coming available to us through the elegance of design and the computer revolution they used to have a room this size of vacuum tubes in order to get a couple one billion kilobytes of computing now it's down on a chip and they're talking about a terabyte chip so that's an exp in technology especially electronic without raping the planet yes ok or if we could get to finish it when are we ever going to get to fusion i'd like to know it in the bin our lifetime they're going to say we're going to have fusion electricity and we're going to have unlimited electricity for the grid for every and every and it's always over there rising about ten years out of time for solar energy or with solar yeah now i think actually that there are very cheap modes of energy production that we are being kept from utilizing by the big oil companies because it would diminish their profits their i don't want to keep us on an oil based economy as long as possible and jack up the price as much as possible they've got a vested interest in that me i'm sorry  operating spaceship earth that is inadequate to what the future requires don't you agree yes we need a new kind of way of operating before used to use that term an operator when you have a technology have an operating manual for how the damn thing works right yeah an operating manual for spaceship earth we don't have a comprehensive understanding of that either in economic theory or in political theory yes it's with in keeping with a liberated humanity or a liberated planet and what would a liberated planet mean it would mean basically that you can have a context where everybody not only live out their full biography people die young needlessly but also their full potential ality and we're so far from that on a system scale for everybody that we need something new other than the institutions we've inherited out of history don't you think and we don't have vision of that we have to regard corporations of having in a role in relation to their society where they're not just concerned with their stockholders but with stakeholders  aeration yeah right and where corporations ought not to be allowed to conduct business unless it provides some good some benefits for society now well today many things contrary to that take place and of course the very idea of having corporations rule the world through say the world trade organization is i think the basic skeleton of the new world order david david korten tells that the case that's right yeah you great he's really good hearted and really i'm right or i'm grider is wonderful you're really good there's all that sort of thing and that into the world with economics and so forth but we are still hovering on this thing and i'm afraid we just don't have a vision that's adequate to what the future requires i think the problem is the core of our healing around here powerful in our old now and they're so entrenched in particularly now you really have a government that's a merger of big business with big government and that the definition of fascism in fact it is that line mussolini made that observation i know it goes back to you know yeah i know my card and all that kind of exactly and they're going to try this so there is a lack of vision on the part of our leadership well there's not the old you know the legal mind and file on maximizing profits for a small group  but also i wonder if we shouldn't be in a certain sense a little bit charitable events are right not terrible the wrong term but your understanding of the fact that our forefathers if we're coming to a time of something available to us now that weren't available to people in the past they were living in a condition where the technology wasn't there to be able to do things that we can do now with easy to keystroke if we're willing the marshal the resources ri presented is that will we ever trends that it coming to from western military a liz them coming and leading to consciousness rather than consciousness being pre op priore like the  forth the material or would it be that we will ever be able to transcend scarcity as an ontological reality that there is enough for everybody and for us to do with good design what we will do with this planet that we can transcend scarcity which has never been characteristic of the historical moment and if there is how would we measure it or is that something that is just if so facto absurd in terms of the way the universe is constructed that we could understand be free as all that there is enough we've transcended scarcity or is that just reaching for some would be headed thing that could never ever be because that's the default situation as far as that in that proposition if you try to bring it up in society if we have a practically on limited source of energy such as hydrogen for example of them with which the universe abounds it might be that we could create a society that is bound to fall and understanding universe that goes to the end of time and everything but short of that just in terms of material reality if we were at a situation where it was understood as a principle as a for a as a prime or do you call it  effect that the context within which we're doing our planning and our thinking and so forth wouldn't that be a fundamentally different kind of context than the one which we're arguing over the same dialectic idea of who's the bad guy in the political thing and the mafia don that's going to hit who on the head by have the territory and protection rackets and all the things coming out of history which is in fact the nightmare of scarcity and we've been coming out of a situation scarcity is that something worth thinking about by intellectual not where the problem what's interesting liberation from the whole thing yes what's surprising and interesting is that even the classic utilitarianism which usually has been viewed as majority rule or greatest good for the greatest number that's one way can in principle justify a slave based people living in a play i think i would name frederick douglas we live in a life system which is usually thought to be the theoretical foundation of democracy is hopelessly inadequate three left it supplemented by individual rights and also maybe economic democracy and they're not if you have there's one hundred trillion cells in the human organism and they all matter and they all are overlay with the design and they work as a system now that's reaching a little bit that's an individual thing but what would it be like if everybody was in a position to realize their full potential we have a capability to have a world that has that as a reality and that that is part of a reality that exists but is never mentioned him but it requires a resource allocation because of the things that implicit in many of your remarks is that between freedom and what's known as effect the freedom you could say well we're all free to travel around the world wall we're all free to buy a yacht and all that but if we don't have the resources actually we're not free rhino this is where the difference when the rich and the poor is an enormous the rich have overwhelmingly more effective freedom than do the poor where i believe that government has an obligation to the people to do some sort of balancing out so that the least the least among us have enough affect the freedom to live a life that is worth living yeah right absolutely and if they don't they're going to and it's getting down to the point now to where it could be really dangerous because they're so out social critic yes absolutely true and i admire him greatly i do and this is leading to a situation politically it's getting very very dangerous very closely looking like fascism because they do not and that would be if we thought well we've got refused to the democratic party the democratic processes i mean but it's the system that is out of will rule is think with what is required is what i'm trying to get at us and the intellectual community is not coming up with an effective alternative that is going to be able to in a certain sense create a new reality materially on this planet and it's called for in the evolution of conscience if we're going to survive and perhaps come to a point of that's what i'm trying to get yeah  safety net you know you need to medicare medicaid social security workman's compensation ride a long list that make life tolerable within a capitalist system run vast majority and if you don't get that if they just keep building it that way it's very dangerous because you're going to have an uprising eventually you're going to have an opera it could happen very quickly it's already signs of it going and that's the stuff that could lead to the unleashing in some rat in the corner notion of the weapons that are held by the powerful in the world because they feel at it and so there's a guy my rosenberg talks about non commutative you know that there should be a way in which it isn't responsible if you're going to have a comprehensive trans formation rather than a political one where you send out the bad guys and then the other bunch of bad guys come in or whatever and they still work within the old contacts and so what is it possible there's a luxury in that idea of there being a transcending is good that we can have a system that is so comprehensively appropriate to the evolution of universal consciousness we reach that that it would not only be liberating of the whole of the human society and the ecology make a grand transition but also be so comprehensively appropriate that the pattern would be would be able to be inclusive on their own terms of the people responsible for the outdated historical institutions on their own terms rather their within a political dialectic so that we would have a thing they would be included in this in the end to be system that is outdated within a consciousness raising pattern of education or consciousness raising but it would include those responsible for this or cleave heritage institutions on their own terms in the end but they'd be a lagging indicator if you understand what i'm saying you need a about how can we have alternate realities or something in it without going to spiritual things and everything compass that later down the line or something but if you're doing that then the fault is not with the politicians because the you don't blame a crocodile for eating an antelope the fault is with the intellectual the intellectuals are falling down on the job in terms of providing and you you are working toward doing that if i may say so your work is really important in terms of the larger issues you you provide an alternative that is so comprehensive do that include them past the dialectic because if from some altered ontology there's an altered reality that can become part of the understanding the common knowledge understanding and so forth and provide an alternative and it's the intellectuals in the progress is that are pounding down on the job because they don't provide an alternative that is inclusive of them or an alternative that is what the future requires there not to gauging the burning social issues of our time i mean this is part of yeah you you you you you've been one of those you were here in new york talking with your colleagues and what they what they call the nine hundred and eleven truth thing great think that that was a i guess it could be summarized in a pattern kind of a way that they that mounting is it yes indeed i've just published a collection of studies by eleven experts on different aspects of the case and in a book entitled the nine hundred and eleven conspiracy and because the government's own theory involving one thousand islamic terrorists hijacking these four the burning of the right that's absolutely right thirty three they got power and by nine hundred and thirty seven dollars they had ninety seven percent approve i'm sorry to say that our research indicates that our government has been using violence and threats of violence to instill fear into the population to manipulate us to achieve its political purpose i absolutely i think that's the case that is them both cases and is like but i think that's sort of the pattern of history well it's also the classic definition of terrorism which means that our government is the practicing terrorism on the american rather than being only our gov ok yes but if that case and every political interview around the country have a small plutocratic class that owns everything everybody else is wage slaves or sycophant to them who own and it's getting more and more concentrated so it's not just our international order it's the whole system you know it's like instead of having feudal lords we've got finance guys and corporation people and their system is the me you know out of date and not words required and we're not of oh if we say we want an alternative will criticism what about the parts that are going to fill in what the alternative would be and is there anything we could offer that would in a certain sense hoist them on their own petard you know you really apparently able to challenge the base that we do factor just let them own everything and we'll just complain about how come it's not right apple ism can work when it's very tightly constrained and when workers have powerful rights women's rights are respected environmental rights are protected it requires a whole set of conditions to succeed it can unions for example and other benefits before workers could emerge that would forestall a revolution but the fact is harold it's under a diminishing it we're reminded in america now under eight percent the private sector we are undermining all of those reforms that make rome we don't want to tear down all the institutions that exist and hold the planet together currently or people think that we're going to throw out the bad guys as them we just get another bunch of bad guys and we don't have what we don't that is not the everyday reality of course because we've got all these things inherited out of it it's an enticement vision i'm not at all sure though that it's the genuine prospect i mean we have so many difficulties in the world just fine enough food and if this be thing as a bonafide phenomenon th situation could become acute if you know a very short period of time here oh i don't want to get rid of the bees i mean that's for sure you know that he had intended consequences that and the consequences of the thing yeah and if you look at the history though you know revolutions have been with us periodically when social tensions have become so acute revolution is a revolution of revolutions i mean revolution where you cut off king louis the th head because he's in the feudal system the industrial revolution is changing within a society yet under trees in the human organism some of them are stomach some of membrane i mean right you're going to have that question of that kind of thing i mean the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness doesn't guarantee you're going to achieve it do you think this system the constitutional system we inherited from two hundred and thirty years ago is perhaps outdated no i do not i think it was a brilliant plan i only wish we'd try it and that i think spirituals it that did me or was it god to use it what's as ever they would be nice if they if they tr all of these things there are ways of doing that but what about the institution of private property should we eliminate as a lot of people of a socialist or leftist thing would say it's the to sion of private property private ownership that causes the inequities it's all c be on the outsourcing that's going on now pay or it could be a race to the bottom where they're using slave labor in china and india and that kind of thing and then but he said to his grandchildren one thousand nine hundred and thirty you're going to be confronted with technological unemployment to my great pleasure to be a harold yeah good i don't know i think we've maybe ran over a little bit of a belt so i think there's one institution that is the major stumbling block to the whole thing is acceptance of the labor theory of value i think if there's one thing one wanted to focus on i think that's the main stumbling block the idea that well certainly whether it's the housing i know there's a resource oppose labor produced now ads or resources just all kinds of other it's actually it's path why do we allow those people to own all the capital asset the capital assets they're increasingly responsible for production if we're not going to submit according to need if you can have some around but now that they're going to be can they should have ownership the technology the math they should democratize ownership of the machines that are going to produce the wealth where you know than income isn't it sort of income distribution i think i'm in but a lab won't buy that because they think that private property if it's a private property economy is an evil a program it's the only country i'm really interested i think it's the only one that maybe as a model like the united states was a feudal europe is the modern world you have a business there they socially distribute a lot they have oil wealth and they they're all wealthy i mean because there are four million but