food if i'm not mistaken and i'm just going to pass my microphone over to you hi suzanne thanks for having me again yeah just numbers theme is our farmers are your farmers how to eat locally on campus and i have two guests with me today to speak about this one is laura valentine the farmer's market manager hi laura hello and the other is dan baker the post doctoral fellow and the head researcher in the international center for strategic studies and the experimental greenhouse hi dan good morning so i'm excited about this topic because despite it being a winter month where there's not a lot of access to local foods we are still serving locally sourced food on campus and laura and dan are both experts in this because they help to facilitate that so to begin i like laura and dan could you tell me a bit about your job laura can you tell me what does it mean to be the view you farmers market manager ok i was hired to help establish and manage a farmer's market on campus that would make fresh and local food accessible to the campus population the market is part of a larger movement help create a healthy and sustainable food system and you being a market manager means acting as a catalyst i am responsible for making things happen i am connecting the vendors with the customer base on campus i'm promoting the market  communicating with stakeholders and just overseeing the ongoing functioning of the market while planning for its future very interesting can you tell me about your work on campus what does it mean what does it mean to be opposed doctoral fellow first of all and what does basically does everything that a faculty member would do but in sort of a more training mode then than you might expect you know fact the position and so it's it's designed to give you the range of skills that you need to be a faculty professor at a university my particular job is aimed at two main things one is to run the research in the international center for sturgeon studies here so i had all the research that looks at the four topics that we're interested in which is basic physiology aquaculture public education and ecology the second part of what i do is to look at apple and how it relates to aquaculture how can we incorporate apple products into existing after culture sites and how can we make it profitable and work well for those farmers can you explain a little bit what aquaponics is absolutely has been shown to really do well compared to traditional soil based techniques for growing plants and vegetables so it works very well and then when you add the fish component it actually can perform just as well if not better and what the fish do is they of course eat the food that you give them and what they excrete can be turned through the system into plant food so they excrete a product called ammonia and ammonia is actually eaten by the microorganisms in the system and turned into nitrate and nitrate is centrally plant food so what you have a cyst is a system with one input fish feed that's actually feeding two completely different populations the fish and the plants now it's been done for thousands of years often in pawns in china but what we're looking at is whether it can actually be sustainable and actually profitable and is this i was having a discussion with people in my house the other day actually wondering is it a symbiotic relationship between the fish and the plants or is it a unilateral relationship going in one direction well that's a good question really the plants don't do anything super substantial for the fish they uptake things in the water that could be come harmful to the fish if they got to really high levels but really it's more about the fish providing nutrients for the food and you have to remember it's always three things it's not just fish not just plants but it's fish plants and microorganisms those that back those bacteria the nitrifying bacteria are extremely important and the system will not work without those and in my very limited education on agriculture and growing food i always thought that soil was so integrity to the process yes the question i guess is what role does soil play and the main role that soil plays for plants is structural and it also has an environment that promotes  growth of other biologicals that promote plant growth but if you replace that structural role with other supporting things like for big plants you have you tie them up for stuff like that the the best thing about growing in water is that the uptake of nutrients is so easy for these plants and oddly enough it doesn't seem to matter what kind of plants what kind of soil the plants would like in other words one of the things we drew in the summer was keen y which is a grain well it grows best in dry sandy soils but it did fantastic in our hydroponic set up and growing in water it grew to eight feet tall and was very very productive so there seems to be sort of a mismatch between soil requirements and the build ability of a plant to grow in water so there's certainly lots of evidence that hydroponics aquaponics is an effective way of growing pretty much any kind of plant and which kind of fish do you now the problem with that is that you've kind of got all your eggs in one basket and we really need to diversify our aquaculture on the b c coast and so we believe that surgeon are an excellent species for aquaculture and that's what we're we're very interested in here we're looking at how well they grow how well they convert food into mass or meat or something that you can eat we're looking at how healthy they be how many you can put in the tank if you overload the system with food you overload those bacteria and so the system can be swamped with things that are detrimental to plants and fish growth so you don't need to add a lot of food for them to grow very well but they are  that food is protein and protein it's the main thing that's changed into nitrate so you want food that's high in protein and certain are like that so there's a lot of reasons that searching are good for both aquaculture and aquaponics that's why we started with them but we point five tonnes system so there's three and a half tons of water in each system and it's in a building on campus called the aquaponics experimental greenhouse or the egg there's another system which is in a glass greenhouse which has actually been functional for about is actually much warmer than the water in my greenhouse in there is it's about twenty nine degrees in line it's about twenty degrees so there's a fairly sizeable difference there but that system has been running for some time and in latvia are the most commonly used fish species for aquaponics worldwide great thanks dan that's really interesting information laura can you tell me about about the history of the v a used farmer's market sure thing the farmer's market started as a pilot project about a year ago when craig evans who is an instructor you as well as a farmer introduced the idea to his class craig helps run the west program which for those of you who don't know stands for workplace essential skills and training it's a program for individuals with challenges and disabilities so students in the program go out to a local farm they help purpose produce and then they later sell that product to students and staff that you and through the program students learn interpersonal and employability skills that help them gain more independence in their lives in two thousand and fourteen vi use healthy communities korda nader conducted a survey to assess how the campus could improve its food system and results indicated that students wanted greater access to inexpensive local healthy and sustainable food on campus so in response to number of initiatives were put in motion including my project to expand the existing campus market so it's a pretty recent project which is exciting yes and many other universities across canada have farmers markets as well so i imagine the are you following suit and learning from their practices most definitely ally important for the students to graduate with a skill set for the cull unary connection is actually much more recent in fact last march was the first time that we had sold vegetables colony program what i felt was quite rewarding with that is that it allowed us to have basically food experts assess the quality of the products that we were growing and you know many times they put a smile on my face by saying these are some of the best cucumbers we've ever had a lot of this is fantastic you know i mean these are people that really know what they're talking about and my background is fish physiology so i haven't actually done a lot of growing at all so it was very satisfying to know that we're doing it right basically so you know in every program what they do is they actually provide the most of our products at the salad bar  or in the student then cook with that food and serve it to the campus in meals and as dan said in the salad bar so this is something that really needs to be promoted because of doing so many excellent forward thinking practices in our food services and it's simply not yet promoted and i think that if students were aware that our salad bar is right on campus just up the hill there'd be a lot more excitement around it so how did the connection really start between planets and culling our stand well i have to admit that when i started growing it was in january and i really wasn't aware of how well it would do and so within six weeks i could see that i was going to have more vegetables than i could possibly eat or even the whole department up here so funding of course is also a big concern with us right now we there's a lot of competition for research money industrial or otherwise and so by selling our products to the program it provides a little bit more money to put towards maintaining our energy and water costs but what i find this is really good about the system is that we're producing so much that at the end of the day they don't have to go out and buy extra stuff to support you know what they're doing that they're selling down there so we're actually replacing a lot of the vegetable purchasing that they would be doing so you know despite the fact that we have a small footprint up here we can still produce enough to support our local community very well and that's very much the pay to me of what sustainability means is it's becoming a closed a closed system both financially and environmentally where the food is coming from campus and then used on campus and the money is the money from calling arts instead of going to an external food distributor is waste in the food distribution system from packaging all of the various aspects that go into food from harvesters to suppliers to distributors to brokers there's there's so many elements that you're cutting out on which reduces your environmental impact and also having relationships with people who grow the food and direct relationships between growers cookers and consumers is so powerful i imagine has i have you seen the impact of that relationship at all i'm thinking in terms of is culling are asking for specific types of food or or do they have more control over how much their pain or what kind of food is produced well definitely communication is the key to this and by providing me with feedback on the quality of what i make it really allows me to say ok this works better than this and these sociables grew in a way that is more palatable that means you know i can look at them and i can see color and i can sense texture and stuff like that but when it comes to taste you know i only really know myself so it's really been quite useful to have one and one example is early on in the season last year i was growing kale and i gave them a fair amount of kale and they said it was really lovely but it was too delicate and so that told me that oh i don't have enough calcium in my system so that kind of feedback is really important and there's no way you get that as a large producer shipping out to a distributor that goes to different supermarkets across the country so that's really key for me and even if the distributor didn't get that information there's nothing they could do about right that's really exciting you know both both of you laura and dan your your job is food related and i'm wondering how did you first become interested or involved in food work maybe laura do you want to start for me it's started with my love of food and my desire to have fresh healthy foods available to me i really love to cook and eat various jobs in my past brought to light some of the problems of our globalized industrial food system like the large amount of food waste and food miles i saw while working at an organic grocery store that preached sustainability and from that it soon became apparent to me that my kitchen and my garden are these places where i can begin to change my society and and that's really empowering don how did you become involved in food work well you know as i said my background is fish physiology so i was when i started here i was more interested in nutrition and how fish grow and how to support maximal growth in fish that are healthy and you know happy and taste good but i must say that i found an extraordinary amount of satisfaction in growing vegetables i've never really been a big grower although you know i do understand plant physiology it's very similar in a lot of ways but but actually growing and coming in and leaving on friday coming back on monday and seen the lettuce being you know four inches larger that's that's actually really rewarding and i wasn't expecting that i have to admit now that i have a couple of kids couple young boys eating healthy is something that i think is so important especially with the obesity and the health concerns that seem to be just growing you know on an annual basis and so that's certainly one way to do it the other thing that i have been quite concerned about is the quality of the soil in the water that process is getting worldwide and so you know we're brian things from countries where the soil has been starved of nutrients and the water table is contaminated and that actually is concerned me quite a bit so this is a great way for me to actually have a few extra vegetables at the end of the day and i know the history of and i think sort of left in my been able to explore bunch of different things so what i've done is i've actually categorized plants into sort of five areas so i've tried greens with the key and that worked very well i've tried to root vegetable  radishes called white icicle which is really interesting and very tasty but the hydroponic seems to confuse it a little bit so it doesn't really look like you'd expect it to look like but very very tasty and grows very very fast so accused i believe in soil that sort of helped the radish sort of figure out what shape it should be in and you sometimes you lose those in some of the types of aquaponics media that we have and there's a number of different things that we're doing  vertical towers media beds deep water culture and all of these seem to have different pros and cons for different vegetables but in particular root vegetables are not grown very often in hydroponics because there's because there's so much moisture around the potential for the the roots to rot is there but that said there's lots of success stories around carrots and things like that but we have also really what we've had the most success with i would say the least the greens swiss chard so brightly colored i've never seen anything like it absolutely gorgeous i bet it's a beautiful place to work your greenhouse is beautiful and in the winter i quite lovely because it doesn't generally get below about eighteen degrees and there summer though it was thirty seven for a couple of it's not as pleasant in the summer to work i i worked on a farm in india for summer and it was so hot and they had a greenhouse on the farm i used to go into the greenhouse just so that i could feel slightly cooler when i came out  twenty degrees sounds pretty nice right about now yes do you have anyone just lurking in there so that they can stay warm i have a number of practicum student help me with making sure the system is operating as it should and i suspect that i wouldn't either so what is the season for growing these foods that you are selling laurie what is a lot of the food grown that's available at the market where off to live in one of the warmest area where we can grow food almost all year round the farmers market runs from september to december so most of the food found at the market were planted during the spring and summer and are harvest definitely another sign of confusion with the plants right now because the days are getting shorter but the temperature is dropping and in fact i have lights in the greenhouse not lights that would promote plant growth but they do confuse the plants a little bit about daylight l th and that's because a lot of plants in the winter just won't grow basil if they light drops below about ten hours they actually have metabolic inhibitor that says no more growing that it's winter so we still exploring that but certainly right now i'm having no difficulty growing any of those leafy greens that i mentioned the radishes did fine the basil slowing a little bit but it's still good so i expect that will be able to grow right through the winter are there any plant varieties that have been bred specifically for conditions i'm thinking what if someone told it genes had adapted to growing with less than ten hours of sunlight that's an excellent question i don't i don't know of any plants that have actually been created with aquaponics in mind but there are certainly many many plants that have been created with a label called de neutral in other words they don't really care what the light is like but they'll always care what temperature is like because temperature has direct relation on growth rates but whether the water is warm or the air is warm that's much less understood it seems like if the water is warm the rest of the plant can actually draw that heat from their roots and prevent freezing and stuff like that so well there aren't any aquaponics plants that i know of other than ones that you would normally find perhaps in water such as  watercraft stuff like that there's lots that are well suited to the environment that we have in our greenhouse right now i'd be interested to see how the bagel does if it does survive and adapt well i have two types of bottle in there right one is a called a roma two and it did not grow super well in january but in february it started to do well so it may be that just for december and january it doesn't do as well although right now i don't see anything about the other one is a purple basil which is the one that they use for sonic vinegar ets and it's a slower growth but i don't see any sign that it's not going to grow well there are certainly lots of leaves and so we'll have to see how it does but again this is these are the questions that i love to ask and i'm actually approaching them in an experimental way where at the end of the day i can put up a figure and say look this group this didn't if you want to grow something grow this one not this one of cucumbers in eight days and they made i think they made all that we now use cool and that speaks to also a need for volunteers i have heard word that volunteers are necessary for helping you to bring this abundance of food down so that's something that is on my radar for helping to support this program in the future well because there's so many different skills needed volunteers from all walks of  a little while no kidding yeah it's a great post exam participation opportunity and now both of you locally grown food but i'm wondering from people's purchasing behavior can you speak to whether or not actually a demand for locally grown food specifically on campus there is definitely starting to be more interest but like anything it takes repeated exposure to make a change in people's behavior the more we put out the idea the more it will resonate and spread among students i'd like to say spread organically do you think you know i think as people understand how far away a lot of these foods actually come from and what the ecological environmental impact of all that transport and all the information that you don't know about these things i think the push towards locally grown  fact some of the bigger grocery stores and here in particular thrifty i've seen a number of kiosks that are in fact locally grown produce so they have actually contacted farmers in the area and gotten products that they actually display and i mean that's that's their their push their driving point they're saying that this this did not come from mexico this is not complete china this did not come from south america this is in your own backyard and i think i really think that that's going to be one of the more attractive things about grocery shopping in the future move away from the packaging move towards locally grown stuff but if you wanted to you could call up the farmer and say what do you do with these things and better yet on campus people can actually visit the greenhouse which is pretty cool absolutely we run tours probably almost on a weekly basis and you know we love to have people come up and take a look at our stuff how how do people contact you to  set up your well we are a little bit isolated up at the top of the hill here we try to spread the word we're in the process of creating more informative web pages now probably be in the next couple of weeks and then hopefully those will be able to be searched for and people will be able to find that information more often if you wander up here i mean obviously i'm busy but i'm always happy to take a few minutes to talk about my work because as a scientist that's really my life that's what i like to do communicate about the questions that i think are important and that i'm trying to address instead of just talking to your plants right people around yes well i've been caught doing  so what are the can either of you speak to what have been the driving forces for creating space for locally sourced the campus food movement group at the university has played a big role in making local food an issue at the school for you who don't know the campus food movement is a group of students faculty and staff who are working towards creating a healthy and sustainable food system on campus another is the i use healthy communities coordinator who has been a big player in the push for locally s campus and between the two there have been a number of great initiative started to like the farm to you program well done what do you think you have any thoughts on i mean the money for my position here which is a contract position i've been here for a year and a half now it's so actually come from both the b c government and from agriculture and the agriculture industry you know they realize that there's a bit of negative press out there and they really need to change the way to do things and one of the ways that they really want to do that is to move to research related aquaculture systems that don't waste water don't waste energy and don't contaminate the environment and so the idea behind aquaponics attached to that is that it does three things first of all it provides a secondary profit line right so you've got vegetables now that you can sell but the the plants drop a lot of the stuff that would be a problem possibly for the environment such as those nitrates those calcium a lot of the  micronutrients that they need would normally just go down the drain into the sewer system or whatever runoff it was going to for that system and then of course the third thing is public awareness and public perception of these places you know when when i company makes an effort to reduce their ecological input their environmental footprint i think people really respect that and i think that both creates this possibility of becoming more and more green but it also increases the success of the company i think will break for some community events suzanne do you want to promote any event coming up well there are a couple of things you and we've just made a little sound there with transferring the mike but we have received the good news today is that we've received some new mike processors so by next week we shouldn't have to do that so that's a good thing and thank you to our donors who made that possible you are listening to c h o i want to one point seven f m and also found at c h o y dot ca and we'll just mention quickly today is giving tuesday it's a global day of giving after the sales of black friday and cyber monday giving tuesday is a time to 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minimise the environmental and social impacts of their digital devices in case you're wondering new society is back in local hands and continues to be located on gabriel island you can check their website to see the rich assortment of titles that they've produced that's new society dot com and saturday's event is free that's once again december sixth it will feature a new society book sale offering a fifty percent discount to the local community and actually if you check the website all of their books are available at discount through the website as well until december twel the event on saturday once again is at the phoenix auditorium at the haven on gabriel and the doors will open at six thirty vent starts at seven it's free but you will have cookies and coffee by donation the which is the gabriel bus service and once again you can check out tripled over new society dot com and we're hoping we're overdue actually for having them on the show and we're hoping to do that early in the new year so stay tuned for that the program that you are listening to on c h l why it is changes and today is talking with laura of the i use farmer's market manager and dan the manager of  use aquaponics greenhouse so back to you i'm so glad that there are tourists available who would love to go up there about especially at this time of year where it's warm so lauren down we've been speaking a lot about how your jobs both relate to sustainability but i'm wondering just for the sake of clarity and conversation can you speak to why why it is actually considered sustainable to eat foods that are sourced locally well a local food doesn't necessarily mean sustainable food but farmers markets are one of the many ways to localize the food system and this can lead to greater sustainability both  environmental and social so when you buy from a farmer's market you support local producers and agriculture in the region you strengthen your local economy by keeping money in the community and if you're buying food from farmers that grow using ecologically sound methods then you are lowering your impact on the earth do you have any thoughts yeah sustainability is an interesting one because really all it talks about is long term thinking and long term planning you know if you are fishing a finite resource then it just can't be sustainable not unless you have an incredibly good management program and you know all the information you need farming in general is not really difficult to do sustainable because they did that for many many centuries the problem is can be sustainable and profitable now is really good from a sustainable point of view because of the w minimizes resource use oddly enough and this is not something that is intuitive but growing plants in water actually uses less water than traditional slow based growth and that's because you don't need to replace that water it just goes round and round the stuff that you add to it doesn't mean that water goes down the drain traditional watering of soil it seeps and disappears into the water table also you know greenhouses are excellent at using solar locally is the transport i don't think people really fully understand how much money goes into paying for gas and burning oil to transport ships trucks i mean every step along the way uses oil or gas and we just we just can't do that anymore it's just not working for us well sometimes i make a presentation to classes in the in the international education program for students who are in english as a second language just to speak about our global food system and give them practice and speaking english and one presentation that i do is talking about where rice comes from and identifying every step in the process of how it gets to our plates and each student in the class represents one step in the process whether it be a farmer or the seed the rice seed or the broker or the food inspection agency and as we walk through the steps every student takes a piece of string and then passes the string on to somebody else and by the end of the presentation the whole class is tangled in this mess of web to symbolize how complicated our food system is and how many hidden steps there are in the process of eating rice on our plates and i think that's one of the most powerful mechanisms or mor powerful outcomes of eating locally is not only minimizing this level of complexity but also having more control over where food comes from and control over what it is we're actually eating and how it affects our bodies and how it affects our environments like if students only knew on campus that they could speak to you dan and get a much clearer and more empowering understanding of where this food is coming from and the your growing practices and how it's going to impact the environment i think that is formidable and itself is the control that we gain when purchasing locally that's very profound syria and i find it really interesting that in ecology complexity is a good thing it promotes health in a system but with things that humans do complexity just increases risk so one of those steps goes down and the whole thing doesn't work and that relates to the concept of food security is the minimization of risk because to be food secure is to know what all times that we have access to food and that we will be able to eat and in some contexts food security could be having grocery stores an abundance of grocery stores with so much food but in many ways that in the long term isn't necessarily food security specially on vancouver island where if suddenly we were cut off from the mainland we would no longer have access to such an abundance of foods unless we have farmers who are growing up and unless we have started ourselves so minimizing risk is increasing our food security you know universities all across canada are beginning to source more local foods into their cafeterias ryan arson is a great example mcgill is a great example even universities in the states are doing this the entire state of california actually agreed to join the real food challenge where they're trying to alter their purchasing policies to purchase twenty percent quote unquote real food by the year two thousand and twenty that's an entire state in the united states and why i mean obviously this is trendy this is becoming significant it's in the newspapers but why do you think this is important it's important because universities have tremendous purchasing power they actually have the resources and the capacity to make an impact on our food system they're able to set standards and act as agents of change so by purchasing local food universities can make local food and affordable reality first for the campus population on top of all that purchasing locally is proven to help the surrounding community in terms of health and economic stability so i think as institutions they need to be role models for sustainable development workforce and if we can change the way they think about food and where it should come from there's no way that's not going to take over i watched a really interesting ted talk  a lot of the things associated with the university are not well suited to growing fish for food i mean we're not an agricultural company that said you know providing fish to the farmers market i think would be a fantastic way to really drive home the message that research relating agriculture systems are entirely suitable for providing food for people and eating fish is something that's really very important for us and we in north america we do under consume fish so i think that in the future because we can grow fish without a lot of the problems associated with terrestrial farming i think that that is something that we really need to explore and expand on and surgeon are great fish to do so hopefully those barriers will be coming down shortly certainly you can get a license to start a sturgeon agriculture farm having to come on campus themselves takes away any liability issues so that might be a possibility or the liability would then be covered by the institution yes so now we're coming to the end of the hour and i always love to hear a boat people's idealistic dreams because often they can become reality so can either of you speak to for example or if you could manage your dream farmer's market on campus what would look like my dream campus market would be part of a community food center it will be a space where people can come together can grow and cook and share and advocate for good food i would like to see a year round market i would like to see a market that supports external vendors in the community but also provides items grown on campus through the horticultural program through the aquaponics system that dan has been telling  about through the community garden a dream market would have the music students playing music and the art students spying their art it would be a meeting place where students and staff and community members could engage  collaborate it would be a platform for education where individuals could increase their food literacy and it would put food sovereignty at the heart of the campus food system let's make it happen if you could operate the alcoholic's program in any possible capacity what would that look like for you well the first thing that i think would be really useful for the system is to incorporate different faculties into the program into the project you know we can get some experts from horticultural some experts from the biology department that have experience with microorganisms and then all work together and create a system that you know really worked on all cylinders i think that would be again and there are some examples of people putting forth projects like that across canada right now i have the fish in the greenhouse greenhouse isn't really a great place for  so what i'd rather do is i'd rather piped water from the international center for strategic studies where we have a huge capacity for fish right now we have over six thousand fish on campus and then that water into the greenhouse rather than having small on a fish in the greenhouse with the plants so that would mean that it would create a model where you've got a fish farm and a project's farm side by side and they're sharing resources and working together as a whole and i think that would be something that would be really fantastic to move toward the future cool is there a program on campus that could actually build that system connecting the building the building of it is not that difficult really it's all about money and that includes getting faculty to be interested in it because it takes some time and they release time so really it's about the university to say ok you know what this is something that we think we should invest in we'll have to make a case for that to conclude can either of you speak about what the near future will actually look like converge at all with your changes happening in the next year or so oh absolutely we're moving sort of a more production scale so we can produce enough of one particular thing that will really support the creation of dishes and that sort of thing but we also have students to exactly comes to the end of our thank you so my dan and laura that's really interesting information i learned a lot and i'm so excited thrilled to be part of this process of creating them a more localized food system on campus and there's so much opportunity with champion such as yourselves so i'm i'm excited for what this next year will click and week to week i think there's so much that we can do great thanks to both of you and thank you for bringing laura and down today it's been fabulous and that's our show changes  every tuesday morning at eleven here on sci check us out on facebook and on behalf of our production team thank you so much for joining us