want to go to the store the kids want to go bike riding scooter riding it's really really dark there's lights we need more lights and when we cross the streets the cars don't respect us walking and that's an issue for me because there's a lot of kids we have the cleveland kids we have the atlantic kids we have the franklin kids in the car some respect that we're crossing we're halfway the street and the cars already right behind us that's an issue for me i have two kids and they love to play outside so lights and the card the spinning mostly and salinas it's one of the streets that it's really really awful but thank you that's it thank you and i think i was said they there go they go way too fast they get the intersections way too fast so people are afraid to walk into the street and cross because they could they're way too fast there's parked cars is there should be and that means you can't see the cars coming so people basically are afraid to cross until they actually see a car stop and i think that that it was done almost by verbatim instead of how we normally do it so i appreciate all the work that was involved in doing this because this is an amazing set of minutes so thank you kim very much for doing it and i do move to proof okay so there's burn foxen green kingston and we i just wanted to go over a few things as we move into the meeting today just reminding folks that we are televised on channel eighteen right now or whatever cox cable has decided hope they'll put us on okay and also streaming online the video of the meeting will be available online as well after the fact from next week probably  and it also replays on city tv so because we're on television just want to remind you if you're speaking into a microphone to make sure that the green light is bright  because if you are not speaking into it the people at home cannot hear you and there's a little bit of amplification here in this room so we want to make sure everybody can hear us well  we will move into public comment if there are committee members who have clarifying questions so not a line of questioning to make a point but just what did you mean when you said this or you know something really really clear for staff a quick question we can ask that at that time and then go to public comment but all the committee members will have ample time to ask more questions and make make commentary after public comments so we want to make sure that everybody gets their time so again public comment is two minutes i do have a timer like i said and we will be using it and because all your neighbors want to speak  too so we want to respect everyone's time and sum it up in two minutes and we know obviously it's a big issue and very emotional but we want to try to get to as much substance as possible today after public that time the way that we're gonna run it is if once it comes back to to the committees if you want to speak you have comments or questions just get my attention i'm gonna keep a speaker's list and then we'll go in that order and if you have spoken already and you're raising your hand again if there are other people who haven't spoken yet we'll let them go first and then we can do do another round but we just want to make sure everybody has their voice heard both in the public and and on the committees i think that's it but yeah we just want to be be aware of everyone's time and not interrupt or  anything another note for folks in the audience and for those of you watching at home who can't see the audience we have a full house in here we in order to keep keep decorum and keep moving forward keep our momentum going with the meeting were there are no large plazas or cheers or anything like that but there is a way that you can express your emotions and it's something with technical term it's called spirit  if you agree with something that's being said you can go like this so we can test it out if i can get spirit fingers from everyone right good so we'll do that it's silent but it makes it makes a statement so the transportation manager of public works department i managed these on to the transportation circulation committee i have been before the neighborhood advisory council a couple of times so i think you all remember who i am tonight in the audience with us we have a few staff members i think you all know derek bailey he's our supervising transportation engineer he will be making the bulk of the presentation we also have mike mcgrew he is a surgeon in the police department he supervises the traffic enforcement detail in the police department he will be here to answer any questions as well pat kelly this is the memphis item derek has we're doing a little different tonight he has some drawings that he has put on the table for the audience information it will be up on the screen here so they'll be able to see what he's going over with the committee they're decided to do it this way so we can have bigger plans for the committee to take a look at so when he's going through the presentation we're probably going to ask the committee members to crowd around and so you can see what he's showing if you feel comfortable with that you can also we deal with scientific engineering analysis and don't deal with emotions so we have to put forth the best professional judgment we let the city council either accept or not accept those recommendations we're asking for the committee's to do t night is hear what derek has come up with in terms of options on milka street and give us your preferred option that we can take forward to the city council i know there's been a lot of conversations about a traffic signal why can't we put one in well there's like good evening thank you browning derek and i are here tonight to summarize investigation analysis that we have done to improve pedestrian conditions on milpas the imp from our prior meetings and from the community at large has been very helpful in identifying what options we can look at and help help us make the recommendations that we will be presented tonight there's been a challenge to include everybody's input  we may not be able to reach the same final conclusion however we do understand the goal and also the passion to make milpa milpas safer and as such we have done our best to make recommendations tonight that we believe me last october there was a very tragic accident young man sergio romero lost his life after that the city staff pat and i we attended a few meetings last november since then we've talked to a lot of different groups and committees and councils just to give a brief history of what's happened up till now last november we went to a neighborhood advisory council meeting as well as a coast memphis community association and pueblo meeting  that those meetings we were just there to listen we were trying to get some feedback from the community what people are after and then you know loud and clear they want improve pedestrian crossing conditions a ollie the few months following november up through the end of january we came up with some alternatives analyzed them and at january th transportation circulation committee we printed presented those initial  set of alternatives and since then we've been meeting with various groups presenting the alternatives refining them and getting feedback and we're here tonight to present the alternatives that  based on the feedback we've been given as well as our recommendation moving forward safety we want it safe for everybody so just to summarize it improve crossing conditions improve safety for pedestrians and as well maintain safe conditions for vehicles other issues that we heard about in the outreach process narrow lanes on milpas both traffic and parking lanes those narrow lanes are leading to difficult parking conditions there's not a lot of space for bikes out there there's narrow sidewalks and as well those narrow traffic lanes are leading to a lot of sideswipe crashes one thing that we found is in the last ten years in the three blocks section between cota and cannon perdido there's been forty reported sideswipe crashes you know now that doesn't include our analysis the first thing we looked at because there is such a strong request for it just our traffic signals the benefit to traffic signals is it's easier for pedestrians to get across the street  but there's some trade offs with traffic signals as well based on our experience operating other traffic signals up and down memphis we know that there's just as many pedestrian involved crashes happening at signal intersections as done signalized intersections so it wouldn't necessarily be an improvement wouldn't be any worse but it wouldn't be an improvement we're we're really likely to see a degradation and safety is in the vehicular crashes and i really want to stress how many more crashes are happening at other signalized intersections on memphis then in memphis northagen memphis neon and ollie and i'm just gonna run through the numbers here really quickly this is this is since two thousand these are toes eleven those are all the signalized intersections between the freeway and the neighborhood to the north that's a total of one hundred and thirteen crashes those one hundred and thirteen crashes there were seventy four people injured now just to compare with how many broadside collisions are happening at milpas northagen memphis neon and ollie there was one at each since the year two thousand two people injured so using this data we can predict what's going to happen if a traffic signal is installed there's going to be more broadside collisions and a higher potential for people to be injured potentially fatal and property damage so those are the things we're trying to avoid and for those reasons traffic signals do not meet the goal of maintaining vehicular safety as well as safety concerns with traffic signals we know the traffic signals for low volume streets are much less efficient  there's going to be more stops for people on memphis and along with more stops on mill paths that can also push traffic into the neighborhoods if drivers get  frustrated another thing that we're not recommending is to leave things the way they are we know that the existing painted crosswalks and warning signs are not working they're not creating gaps in traffic they're not creating good driver  are having a hard time getting across the street so there's really no benefit to keeping things the way they are the downside to keeping things the way they are it gives pedestrians a false sense of security those pedestrians think they have the right of way and they do but they're not being given the right of way so it's not creating safe crossing conditions for the pedestrians and as well the like i said there's a low rate of driver yielding to pedestrians but we do have some alternatives that marked crosswalks the thing that that would do is remove the false sense of security for pedestrians and as well it would encourage them to cross at other locations another thing we could do is relocate or remove the bus stop on the northwest corner of and they want to cross this is how they do it to get to that bus stop removing that bus stop removes the likelihood that pedestrians will cross here but what we are hearing is this is a location that people do want to cross so if there is going to be people crossing here we want to enhance this crosswalk we don't want to leave it the way it is  we're going to show a short video here all of our alternatives that we're presenting tonight include pedestrian activated flashing lights and this is the kind of light that we're  recommending this is called a rectangular rapid flashing beacon this was taken in berkeley california they were recently approved for use in the state of california they've had a really good success rate of driver yielding in the eighty to ninety percent range which is really good some of the other types of pedestrian activated flashers such as the in pavement lights and as well just the pulsing amber beacons they have driver yielding rates down in the thirty to fifty percent range so this is much better and we think would be quite effective the the first alternative there's there's two variations of it is that this is that ortega is to install a median refugee island this is a median refugee island the advantage of median refuge islands is that it gives the pedestrian an opportunity to cross half the street at a time currently because there's a center turn lane here there's really no good place for the pedestrian to wait in the middle of the road because there could be a left turn er there  so the pedestrian has to find a really large gap in traffic in order to make it all the way across the street having a median refuge island like i said allows the pedestrian to cross halfway at a time and that way they can analyze one direction of traffic cross analyse the other direction of traffic a second benefit to this is it gives us a place to install the rectangular rapid flashing beacons in the video we just showed installing the rectangular rapid flashing beacons only on the sides of the road may not be noticeable by drivers milpas is a wide street and having those flashers only at the side of the road may be too far outside of the driver's cone of vision and may not be as noticeable  having a third device in the middle of the road it would be very noticeable by drivers and much more likely to increase driver yielding rates this configuration that i'm showing here involves a median refuge island that's split in that way when the pedestrian crosses the street they're actually standing in between separate pieces of the median the pedestrian will feel more comfortable out in the middle of the street that would require us to build  ramps here and here a trade off for this configuration is this ramp is right in the middle of the bus stop and would require the bus stop to be removed as well  this configuration in order to fit a median refuge island in the middle of the street requires us to push the traffic lanes closer to the curb the where the parking aisle is right now that would require us to some red curb  these spaces here so it would involve loss of parking we've been hearing from the business owners that they they do use that on street parking it's important for their customers for deliveries and for their employees so um based on the comments we've heard so far there isn't a lot of support from the the merchants for this alternative or alternatives that involve loss of parking another variation of the median refuge island is making use of the existing ramps and leaving the crosswalk where it is it's a shorter median refuge island and the pedestrian would actually stand at the end of the island so the pedestrian would be exposed on one side again it is a place for the pedestrian to wait in the middle of the street it is a place for us to install that third flashing device and because this median refuge island is a little bit shorter there'd be less new red curb needed and we wouldn't have to eliminate as much on street parking these next alternatives they're variations of one another but they all involve removing one lane of traffic that ortega street traffic volumes are such between  could remove one traffic lane and not negatively impact traffic too terribly much we would add a bike lane and wider traffic lanes isn't enough so what i'm showing here is a median refuge island in addition to the restriping and again that gives the pedestrian an opportunity to cross halfway and a location for a third set of flashers restriping it's it would cause some congestion that would be most noticeable at de la guerra street just to give everybody a feel for the type of traffic volumes that we're talking about which is here this is the neighborhood to the north the road actually existing right now narrows down to one lane in each direction is about eight thousand cars a day use this section of memphis just north of  works around fifteen zero once you get much more above that that's when backups can start happening like i said it'd be most noticeable today llegar what people would notice during red lights is longer queues however they would still clear the light in one traffic signal cycle in contrast to the south it would take multiple signal cycles for drivers to get through if that striping configuration were extended further south another variation of this we were asked by the transportation circulation committee to show this alternative when we were here in january's to show it with curb extensions these are the curb extensions here what curb extensions do is it creates a shorter pedestrian crossing distance so right now a memphis street is sixty four feet wide curb extensions would reduce that crossing distance to somewhere around forty eight to fifty feet depending on how wide those curved extensions would be as well the flashing devices would extend further out into the street closer to the driver's center of the cone of vision then we wouldn't require a third set of flashers the reason i'm showing the curb extension on the south side of the street is not to affect the bus stop a curb extension on this northeast corner wouldn't give the bus enough room to pull parallel into the curb and pick up passengers and another alternative that we were asked to show by the transportation circulation committee back in january was a combination of curb extensions and a median refuge island again showing the curb extensions on the south side so as not to affect the bus stop one issue we could potentially run into with this configuration is enough space here between the median refuge island and the curve extension for the fire department they do like to have twenty feet clear so they can they won't ever get obstructed and they can respond to their emergencies in a timely manner this would probably be somewhere around sixteen to eighteen feet as shown so if  this was a alternative put forth we would have to look at that particular spot right there oh should also mention parking would not be negatively impacted with the restriping configuration and we may actually be able to reintroduce one or two spots because of because of improve because we did hear quite strongly that on street parking matters we we came up with another alternative since the transportation circulation committee back in january and that's just an over head mounted flashing light configuration so it'd still be two lanes in each direction none of the turning movements would be affected and as well none of the parking would be affected and those are the alternatives for like i mentioned the traffic volumes are substantially higher than they are at ortega on memphis they're somewhere in the twenty two thousand range so almost fifty percent higher than at ortega again we need to ask the question is this an appropriate location for a crosswalk so one alternative is to remove the crosswalk encourage pedestrians to cross elsewhere and remove that false sense of security it would still be a legal crossing point however it  similar to arteaga we could do a median refuge island because of driveways fire hydrants streetlights there isn't the opportunity to have the other design alternative with the median refuge island where the pedestrian actually passes through the center of the island we could only do this type of configuration but again pedestrian would have a waiting spot at the center of the road and it is a spot for a third pedestrian activated flashing device  the negatives for this configuration is the loss of parking a number of spots would have to be eliminated in order to fit the median refuge island as well eastbound to southbound left turns out of the doughnut sho driveway wouldn't be possible although during most times of the day that's a really difficult movement to make anyway it'd only be during off hours that that movement would even be possible and again to address the concerns of loss of parking we could also do an overhead mounted flashing device at this location as well it wouldn't affect parking it wouldn't affect capacity in any way staff recommendations at milpas and ortega there are two feasible options in our in our mind the overhead mounting flashers number two would work it would create neighborhood striping transition are also feasible they would all work quite well create good crossing conditions for pedestrians as well as address some of the other issues that we heard about such as lack of space for bikes sideswipe crashes and difficult parking maneuvers at yan and oli again because the traffic volumes are higher we don't have that opportunity to restrike the road without creating a significant amount of congestion and due to the concerns of the businesses  over loss of parking we're recommending the overhead mounted flashing lights at that location steps this evening we're looking for a recommendation from the transportation circulation committee a recommendation from the neighbourhood advisory council and as well in in about a week and a half time we're going to be presenting to the youth council as well and in may we're planning on taking our recommendations your recommendations the youth councils recommendations plus all the feedback we've received from the community to city council  okay and so yes if i may just to reach a short conclusion is that derek and i've been looking at what is the larger goal that we're trying to achieve here and our assignment our duty and responsibility to the city and to the city council is to provide them with what we believe is and what i understand the interests of the community at large is how can we make nova safer and as difficult as it has been for us and for many others is that we are not recommending the traffic signal as noted there's been a significant amount of discussion is that the reason why we're not recommending the traffic signal is because it doesn't meet  a traffic signal warrant summary it is eleven pages long so that's one heck of a summary so it gives you a clue as that you know it's not simple but i think what i'll try to do is try to reduce it down that this is just a tool and it's a reflection of what is the the key goal that we're trying to achieve here derick described is that a traffic signal will have no improvement to pedestrian statistics much in the same way that you can predict that there's going to be a rush hour tomorrow i think we can generally predict that they'll have the same amount of pedestrian traffic in her interface that we had a traffic intersection without a traffic signal i was one with but the staggering statistic is one that derek came up today is that there's be a significant amount of more vehicular accidents a reduction in safety and so that doesn't mean that doesn't make milpas any safer another key item is also and you can predict that just like you know a rush hour another key thing is that by adding a traffic signal in a sense you're providing resistance to the flow much in the same way you take a pipe with a certain amount of flow through it yet some resistance to it less water goes through it and where does it go it goes to the other pipes parallel to it and so that is why we are not recommending a traffic signal and one of the we can get into all the questions regarding well gee if you build the traffic signal this is some of the comments we received well part of the discussion had been warrants or statistics that justify traffic signal one of them is that you have sufficient vehicles you have sufficient pedestrians to come to the intersection and if they're there that can warrant or justify a traffic signal well even if that could be true that we  the traffic signal there and the comments had been well it's not safe right now so or people are worried about it so they don't cross there they don't drive there well even if we put a traffic signal there you still would have the same issue about pedestrian safety we just talked about and the same about funicular safety so warrants really aren't the issue at hand here is that what is the bigger picture of how we can provide safety to the intersection so i was just trying to  get a couple answer a couple questions because i anticipate they will be coming up later and of course derek and i will be available for any questions another key question came up is that one of the reasons why we may not be recommending a traffic signal is because they're very expensive we've talked about at some of our public meetings they could be anywhere between one hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars each that's a significant amount of money however we do have a good streets capital program two to three million dollars a year now we have projects funded within that amount of money and actually as a matter of fact we don't think that's to construct sidewalk links so it's it's a it's a small pot of fund funding when you consider all the needs however that's still a significant amount of money money is not what is determining our decision here we can program that level of money over several years it's not uncommon that we have emergencies that come up that we have to divert money away from typical maintenance classic is the c we have a road in the sycamore canyon area that is sliding down the hill well it's not it's very expensive for us to maintain the connection to the neighborhood by maintaining that road but we have to do it if we derek and i will be available for any questions from the poet thank you okay great so um unless there are any brief clarifying questions to staff from committee members and we will go to public comment if you haven't if you wish to speak and you haven't turned in your slip they're over here that table and you can fill those out and give them to someone on the end and they'll pass them in you can see we have a pretty significant stack so just remind you the timer two minutes and we will be moving through these so i will say i'll say  the name of the person and then the next person so you can be ready to to come up when the person in front of you finishes so first we have robert bernstein to be followed by roselle donna committee document that talked about wide sidewalks bike lanes and planted medians that was from one thousand nine hundred and eighty and none of that was fulfilled so you might want to go back and find out what happened to that  so ten years ago i was crossing a similar road with two lanes in each direction a car stopped for me and then i started to cross and the car in the next lane over hit me and so the problem with having flashing signals or crosswalks is that doesn't work when you have two lanes in each direction so if you're going to do just a flashing signal and not an actual traffic signal you're going to have to narrow it to lane in each direction that's that's crucial and and you've got to put bike lanes in there and then the question i always like to ask is if we of area residents to milk myths and business owners requesting cigna lights which were been discussing today so this was november st when we started the petition it was handed to city council on november t five miles an hour to twenty five just like haley street the speed is a twenty five mile an hour speed limit perhaps that would help to reduce rear end accidents however i've been told that that can't be done so but it's a suggestion that i had to help with the rear end traffic matters but i guess in closing if we have consistent provided before all boards make their final decision thank you also wanted to thank the transportation staff you know they work hard they do a difficult job i think they did an excellent job putting together this information packet which it really digests down a lot of complicated issues so it they're easy to understand and i definitely appreciate the work that you guys have done one of the things that i'm perplexed over here is how this issue is almost it's becoming a little bit adversarial or at least in some of the articles i've read i think you know we all want the same thing we want a safer environment for pedestrians on locust street and you know just because we may have different opinions of what that means doesn't mean we have to call each other sore losers in the newspaper and everything i think we all have similar goals and we're just we need to be able to engage in a good discussion about how we do it so how do we do that you know i categorically i'm opposed to this idea of removing crosswalks i think that it goes against some other policies we have in the city which are really geared towards enhancing pedestrian environments the pedestrian master plan i want to lie here removing bus stops and crosswalks to get rid of a problem it just seems to go against a lot of other things that i've had a lot of personal involvement with on another project so i don't support that as the ortega intersection i think that b is a really good option it's a it's a subtle but i think would be a very effective improvement primarily because of  reduction to two lanes i think above anything else when you reduce the width of that roadway it will slow traffic down and i think everybody knows that when you slow traffic down the cars have more time to react to pedestrians they have more time to that okay all right um very good spirit fingers everybody okay so because i can be slowed by parking cars opening car doors stop the buses and bicyclists taking the lane others do the same resulting in twice as many cars on the inside lane rather than the outside lanes the point is that removing the outside lanes won't make much difference but it will greatly improve the safety of everybody because there are fewer lanes for pedestrians to cross there's room for bike lanes buses stopping won't be blocking traffic and they're possibly wider sidewalks is great benefit he'll change that i recommend between ken and perdido and kokoda it's also one of the city staffs two recommendations for arteaga i further recommend adding curb extensions that will further decrease the crossing distance and enhance motorist two pedestrian visibility if those two safety measures don't help enough consider other improvements later on for janna now ian milpas the situation is different because there's a lot more traffic so two lanes can't be removed however two things can be done there that will greatly improve safety adding flash and lights and a center median the city staff recommends the lights i would add the center median reason comes from a large two thousand and five federal highway administration report on crosswalks it says that installing raised medians provides significantly lower pedestrian crash rates on multi lane roads a painted median won't make any difference but a raised one does thank you very much ride my bike every day and almost everywhere i spend a lot of time on the east side because of my job i spent a lot of time at bc central i work with the students at sonora junior high at santipura high school frankly in school all around the schools this is not a very safe area whenever i have to ride my bike on mid pass i don't feel safe and i'm very experienced and i roll all over the world the four lanes are narrow traffic is heavy and fast and the shares on the road are not very visible and many drivers don't know what they are about when i take the lane which is my right cars honk at me so i support the striping open to everyone's opinions but i feel as a community we all have more work to do to make our table safer as a student i regularly walk around along memphis and will not attempt to cross the intersection where sara romero lost his young life so if you asked me yes i am scared i have spoken to my classmates teachers and everyday pedestrians along the bus and they are scared recently i have noticed more police activity along milpas stopping cars for speeding are cutting off pedestrians at crosswalks i feel it's still not enough i have read the recommendations for our city engineers about the intersection our tagging milpa street and see that they have studied the ideas of median island and pedestrian activated lighting i feel this would work and brings speeding drivers to slow down in the area and protect from losing young li am also supportive the road diet for milkman street from four lanes to two lanes and bike lanes i also ask if this intersection can be made a school zone since it's so close santa barbara junior high soccer field where there is unlocked gates and i see students walking through there and morning and after school my goal until something is completed at this intersection is to continue to support the concerns of all that feel unsafe by continuing to get more petitions creating a milpas protests volunteers with stop signs at th today is actually to speak for these people that are actually spanish speaking and what i found from them is that they are actually very they're afraid because they don't speak the language of course they feel like they're not heard  and they supported very much a traffic light and i think we are all intelligent people here and i understand you know the the amount of time and you know effort that you have been taking to you know bring up you know good information good ideas for this but i from a lot of the people that i spoke to they would really like to have a traffic light and that the reason is because they feel that that people would respect that more than just having flashing lights you know because for some people they can see it but for others they wouldn't so i just wanted to speak out for the community and for myself because i do live on the east side my my daughter goes to santa barbara junior high and  i feel that it's important and to live in the secure in a safe place i have been noticing more police activity and i thank you officer mcgrew for that and you know it just makes more of an awareness but i think it also is an education for a lot of the community so i would feel that if we could you know just somehow come together and and listen to the people basically thank you thank you good evening my name is eva in bar i'm with coast coast has been working with east side residents for over a year on safety problems pedestrian safety problems in the east side and we've been following the process of milpas closely we've we appreciate the city staff for their for their presentation and their work on this they've come up with some good alternatives we are very very much in favor of the road diet north of coda we think that is a good thing it'll provide many benefits it'll make pedestrian crossings safer it'll enabled us to have bike lanes it'll slow traffic that is a good thing so we support that wholeheartedly at jana nalli we have a problem  crossing is more difficult to make if we cannot have a traffic signal here as most people want then we at least need the flashing beacons with the refuge island and that is so important as well thirty forty point it out that is supported by the federal highway administration as a proven safety countermeasure it's one of only three that they support and to have that in there makes a big difference i was disappointed to see that the final staff recommendation did not include that because it would mean losing some parking spots if indeed safety is the goal here as has been stated again and again then we have to have that refuge island and a handful of parking spots is a small sacrifice to make i'm asking your help here to bring back those refuge islands into the plan thank you very much  followed by maria and miss kita good evening lito garcia i'm the principal of santa barbara junior high one of my charges is to ensure that all eight hundred and forty of my students are safe day in and day out and i believe that we do that at school but also i must know that my kids are able to arrive safely and leave safely every single day and so that's why i'm here tonight and i am in favor of island is necessary if we're showing that at ortega and milpas it will provide a safe avenue for pedestrians i believe then we must repeat it again down on lower mil okay i think she left so alan bleeker to be followed by unhooking salas good evening my name is alan bleeker president of the memphis community association and also a business owner at the corner a business owner and property o at the corner of milpas and ortega memphis is a busy commercial corridor with a major highway interchange surrounded by three major schools established residential neighborhoods and community organizations that serve major portions of the population there is no other corridor like it in this city the street sees multiple uses from these different segments of the community and whatever solutions we implement on milpa street must respect the rights and needs of these various stakeholders first and foremost we feel that stoplights are the most appropriate solution for both intersections the street speaks a dominant language of stoplights in that eight of the ten ten intersections north of the freeway have them only on denali and ortega do not fit that vernacular and both our school school crossings completely unprotected let's be honest drivers are trained to stop for a red light our neighborhood is struggling with why some device with a red light even if only in use when  pedestrian activated is not an offer we're aware the city has installed traffic lights even if not warranted under state guidelines the precedents for this are at cabrillo and state street the city asserts that it will face liability if it perceives this way to that we respond the city is having tunnel vision on liability you're already liable the neighborhood asked for lights at these intersections for years through the frankland advisory committee sergio romero was tragically killed there misess rodriguez before him now there is suddenly movement the city could face a lawsuit because nothing was done until now post implementation if another pedestrian gets hurt someone could sue if a signal light could have prevented this accident we've reviewed the city's proposals at length and this is our position for each intersection at ortega solution b with road diet and curb extensions is most acceptable acceptable to neighbors it increases safety and preserves solace to be unless there's another alan bleeker i'll take that one out so ooh what does that say i'm in eighth grade and we feel that stoplights are needed because one morning me and my friend were walking home it was a late walking to school sorry it was a late start and when we were trying to cross the street there was a large car on the right lane and the left lane when we were already walking the car i guess didn't see us and he he almost hit my friend and i pulled him back and then i like cuz i saw it behind and i saw that he wasn't slowing down so i put him back and the car like it didn't even stop he just passed but and yeah he's going like pretty fast and that's it thank you why we can't have streetlights and saying that they don't understand but in the staff or knows better is the wrong answer to the community so until it can be clarified where the community can understand it i think that's that's an issue we're here to address to intersections that have been an issue for a long time it's not a it's not a new issue and the accident that happened could have been prevented and in fact you had milkless be violent revitalization plans a long time ago they were just not prioritized instead discussions of realigning state street benches and completely  are prioritized and drive the conversations of santa barbara the community is here because they're asking for immediate and immediate solution to a long long term existing problem and even though there is th that there is a complex issue of the state and federal warrants the ultimate decision comes down to the city and they have discrepancy and mister bleaker correct correctly addressed the possibility of liability existing at different places and in fact the city of san diego last year had to settle a wrongful lawsuit death wrongful death lawsuit for one eight million dollars because they wouldn't install or address an intersection that because the community had asked about for a long time and so the latino democrats are supporting the two stoplights at both intersections and prioritizing the initiatives that will benefit the latino community and the community at large we got involved in this process because after attending several early community meetings we found out that the organizations involved no and we did it on two separate saturdays the latino members talked with neighbors who live closest to the intersections being discussed and we have a map of those for anyone to look at it if they want and i can pass it around oh sorry we spoke with one hundred and three neighbors and found that forty six percent use the intersections daily for the following activities in order shopping walking school work other activities thirty four of those thirty four percent of those we spoke with especially avoid the intersections because these are dangerous which addresses the not enough people walking around the area so that could be the reason all of them of all the people we talked with seventy four percent of the people in the area support a stoplight we informed the public about all the proposals being discussed today and the highest preferred solution in addition to the streetlights only twenty three percent support supported it was the median refuge with flashing lights  intersections and i believe in one of our last meetings sally kingston quipped well if there's so many crashes because of signal lights list just pull all the signal lights out it makes very little sense the neighborhood is justly and rightly asking for something that seems normal at the other eight out of ten intersections on milpas thanks to helen schneider who's in the room tonight sending me on an errand to ask for federal and state assistance on this matter i contacted the fha federal highway administration and i talked to the program manager over intersections and he's out of chicago he let me know that there is possibly a solution called a hawkeye beacon that actually turns red in maybe we could look at that for you named le street as something that would actually work on stopping the cars i second thing is that they also recommend something else that i think is important too and that is an independent road safety audit that's where federal highway officials caltrans engineers who are all familiar with the warrants and the codes will come in and take a long term look at your street and yes maybe a flashing yellow light works today but those same engineers might tell you you know what two years you're gonna have to put in a signal light anyway because your traffic pot you know volumes are projected to increase the nice thing about that is it's independent it's non biased and it would give us something that the neighborhood has also been asking for which is a long term plan for the street so i would like to advocate for those two things tonight before the committee and thank you very much thank you alright so um neil a i'm guessing neil egan may be to be followed by nancy earl the state mandates is it mandatory to follow the mandates that are that are that are suggested and the truth was is the answer is no that it really depends on what is the need of the community and there's always ways around it similar to schools so that was the first and the other towards our tyga so when we looked at the other side of milpas actually on the other side of memphis is close to the washington boundary line so the amount of children that we have carl crossing memphis to come to our school currently is minimal what am i most concerned about are the kids who leave in franklin and are graduated go on to santa barbara junior high because they're crossing our area meaning milpas salinas ortega and cacique and they're going across the street at specific lost one of them due to what we need to do and take care of their safety as a community my other concern is do i have to tell that sibling like i've had to tell them other siblings when other things that happened when i have to pull them in my office and say i have to be the first to tell you that i'm gonna take you to your house but it's not pretty and are we ready it's a community to take on the safety of the kids that are our future and will be our college graduates and will be the professionals that live within and owned houses in the future of our own residents and our own community  if we have questions available to answer questions or to clarify anything and also you can give your comments so if you want to give me a little sign that you'd like to be put on the stack to speak then  oh yes that's a very deceptive green you gave us some statistics on car accidents but are there statistics on on pedestrian safety with traffic lights visa vie flashing lights because it hawks the flashing beacons are in the eighty to ninety percent range so traffic signals do have better driver yielding rates if i could just could you explain when a hawk is yeah it's a hawk is an acronym for high intensity activated crosswalk there are none in the area that i know they originated in tucson arizona they're a type of pedestrian beacon it's called it looks like a traffic signal but that the head is shaped differently instead of red yellow green there's out it's actually a triangular shaped head and there's two red cycle cars slow down stop and then the two red lights come on and when it's done the red lights they flash and then it turns off again the hawk is a it's a new device it feet of a of an intersection or a major driveway so that's why they weren't considered for these locations on one of the suggestions that you had for both intersections i think it was the overhanging beacon lights what is the cost on those and how quickly would they what is the time frame of getting those installed per per intersection what is the time line that we're looking at if it gets approved and that's the way it goes this is not that just to get an idea of what we're looking at three to five months or less cost wise we we haven't priced them out yet i suspect it would probably be and cheaper than the lights than the traffic lights definitely yeah probably somewhere in the order of a half to a third the cost of the traffic signal thank alignment to the edge of the parking lane so so effectively we couldn't really extend the curbs too far out of those locations some other effective countermeasures that the that is recommended they're painted crosswalks can be appropriate at certain locations here because it's a wide street with higher speeds shouldn't be used by itself it should really be enhanced other things that can improve stopping far enough back from the crosswalk that if there's a pedestrian walking in front of the car they have room to see around that car whereas if the car is their bumper is right up on the crosswalk then it's difficult to see you around amber amber there's not other than other than the hawk that was raised up a minute ago no there's no approved traffic control device that operates like that we we have to use proven traffic control devices hawks rapid rectangular flashing beacons they're all tested before they're approved for use nationwide now like i said the hawks originated in tucson arizona they went through very extensive tests there that took well over a decade before they're actually approved for use nationwide there has to be research done evidence university phds come in from all over the country and they look at how these devices are operate and that's all considered before it's approved for use nationwide likewise with the rapid rectangular flashing beacons there was a really thorough study done of those devices in florida washington dc chicago that proves that they work before they were available for use nationwide the trouble i'm having with but i think you've done a great job putting together a wide range of alternatives the the problem i'm having with the engineering recommendations is that it's yellow it's not it it's not a stops it's not a stop light it's a it's a warning light and i think on milpas you need to tell people to stop not just warn them that something is going on up  trying to go to warrants again no one wants to talk about warrants but because i'm very confused now the city for many years was trying to get a signal at figueroa and de la vina and they thought that they finally had the funding they had grant money for it and then when it came down to actually do it it was found out that it didn't warrant a signal and we were unable to put a signal there because we wouldn't have the grant money to fund it the state grant money would not be allowed to you know so now we're over on milpa street you're saying that signals are not are not the option because of the side crashes that are happening on the other signals my question is at these two intersections is it not warranted because of either traffic volume or accidents or is it because you're not recommending it because of the other signals are providing more side crashes approach i mean because i'm confused between what happened on figueroa and what we're talking about now not a courtroom so you don't have  in january there is one additional warrant out of there's now ten but that that warrant is a to do with the railroad so not applicable here these are the nine warrants we consider now i'm going to step through these just so everybody understands the things we compare as part of our study and the warrants are just part of the study they're not the entire study yes just so committee members know if you can't see you can gather around here because the cameras if tony if you if you want to look at this come around and look at it you're welcoming two warrants number one two and three they're all vehicular volume based warrants and the idea with these three warrants is when there's enough side street traffic in combination with a high amount of traffic on the arterial street it's going to create significant amount of delay for the side streets drivers that are delayed to get frustrated drivers that are frustrated make that decisions can lead to crashes so these are safety and efficiency number one is what's referred to as an eight hour warrant so there has to be a minimum traffic volume for eight hours for this warrant to be satisfied is six hundred vehicles per hour for eight hours of the day on memphis also one hundred and fifty vehicles per hour on one of the side street approach  crossing yeah so that's one hundred and fifty per hour for eight hours the highest hour actually onion and olli is forty five so the highest our onion and oli doesn't meet  the threshold that would be required for eight hours as well there's um another variation of the eight hour warrant that requires a higher volume on memphis but lower onion and olli again that minimum threshold for jana and oli is seventy five for eight hours but for one hour the highest one hour we only got forty five for a four hour traffic vehicular volume  it goes up and notice would require one three hundred vehicles per hour and uh nollie eighty that would be for four hours of the day peak hour any one single hour in the day would require thirteen hundred and fifty  or one hundred and seventy onion and olli and again yen and oli the highest one hour is forty five now what this is really trying to be a reflection of is good practice for how much delay based on experience and research that's been done throughout the country over many many years as to what thresholds do these balances that we're talking about in terms of more crashes happening at a traffic signal versus less when when to the safety benefits at a traffic signal start to away the negatives that we've been talking about based on research and experience that's been done these numbers are a good reflection of that but by themselves they're they're not a end all be all by any means you know we certainly have to use our engineering judgment and interpret these numbers but these are a very good reflection of when it's appropriate these are the volume based there's also pedestrian volumes and admittedly that to me this is really high but this is the engineering standard for anyone our there'd be one hundred and ninety pedestrians quiet across or one hundred and four four the day the highest we observed at yan and oli is forty two for one hour so it's substantially lower than the required threshold that's pedestrian volumes there's also provision for school crossing  you have to have twenty students per hour but before you're allowed to use this warrant you should explore other counter measures such as median refuge islands flashers there's such a strong opinion in the transportation research industry that traffic signals can have a negative impact on safety and where i was coming from explaining what's happening at the other traffic signals is why we're concerned about that you know i want to make sure everybody understands that at traffic signals crashes still happened now that's really the point other warrants coordinated traffic signal system that that's not applicable here that has to do with when you have more of a highway type arterial signals that are spaced far apart having a traffic signal can bunch the traffic crashes or five correctable type crashes in a twelve month period a correctable type crash means something that if that traffic signal was there it would have corrected that's that problem you know somebody's smashing into a light pole you know that's not something the traffic experience has shown that traffic signals don't make all crashes go away so if there's any less than five chances are you could actually end up creating more of a problem than you have when you start with and that's really where we are with ortega gnyana nollie is the crash rates are so low right there that by putting a traffic signal in we expect it to go higher and that's really where we're coming from here is we recognize that it would be definitely easier for pedestrians to get across the street with a traffic signal no question we've all used traffic signals and we all base our opinion of traffic signals on our experiences but what i do is i comb through data looking back five years ten years i'm looking through the crash records of crashes that are happening out there that we're not witnessing personally and i start to add everything up and more crashes are happening at the traffic signals that are happening and that's really why we're recommending alternative measures because the number of crashes based on what's happening at other intersections could go up and any type of crash there's risk you know people can get hurt people can get killed property damage and we really want to try to avoid that the problem here is pedestrians getting across the street and we're trying not to introduce a new problem into that other warrants the roadway network when there's an intersection of two major streets it gives us a provision that we could install a traffic signal this one i've never actually u because any intersection of two major streets tends to meet one of these warrants up here in the last last volunteer warrant is for bicycle volumes and fifty side street bicycles are required and the most we counted at yen and ollie are eight traffic signal warrants even if one of these were met it doesn't mean a traffic signal should be installed i've studied intersections before that have met several of these  but it doesn't actually it wouldn't actually improve operations you know there there's been side streets that i've studied that are really high in volumes but when you look at what's happening on the main street there's really large gaps in traffic there's no crashes that are happening if we were to put in a traffic signal we'd actually causing more delay for that side street traffic because they have to wait for their green light to come around rather than making use of that big gap in traffic and just going during a stop sign  so just because some of these would be met it wouldn't necessarily mean we would install a signal as well but that's not the case here the what we found out there in terms of numbers just traffic volumes pedestrians bikes crashes is all falling well below this but putting all of this aside what it really means is traffic operations would not be improved we'd be looking at potentially higher crashes higher risk of injury death property damage and as well more delay for traffic using milpas using the side street even though if traffic signals were there they would be synchronized due to the spacing of the intersections out there intersections on are spaced fairly tightly it wouldn't be possible to time those lights perfectly there'd always be one direction a traffic that would have to stop so that that's another concern of ours as well don't go far approach so question to start with is and i i know i've already asked you this given that we know least people feel uncomfortable crossing there and go down to intersections where they feel more comfortable crossing mason or montecito what it really comes back to though is even even if the numbers were higher and we put in a traffic signal we still come back to the same problem with increased crashes and that's a prediction that's a prediction oh wait no pat uses predictions use experience so i'm just like want to make sure you get the terminology correct but that's not experience or predictions on milpas street that's just generic correct that's generic the the table that i just went through it's using actual numbers from milpas but it's based on experience nationwide okay so that that's that's a really important thing to point out so once we started our study and kind of went through these nine different warrants  at that point we start to drill down even further and go okay well it's not warranted per the federal standards but what's that really mean on memphis and that's why we started to compare what's happening at each other signalized intersection on  because traffic behaves the same five hundred feet away we're not talking about something in new york city we're talking about something a few hundred feet away the intersections are all about the same width memphis is configured the same so that's why that the collisions tbonz whatever there are whatever they are at the other lighted streets would be lessened because there'd be two other streets with lights so it may not necessarily increase collisions along milpas street period it might decrease it's a hard prediction to make one one problem that we have in in the traffic engineering world is is tightly spaced intersections and the way drivers behave between tightly spaced intersections drivers oftentimes they're looking down the road too far and paying too much attention that traffic signal five hundred feet away so there's also the possibility that with extra traffic signals along there their eyes are going to be drawn further down the street and it could actually increase crashes at existing signals here you mentioned there's more rear end in sight swipes where the traffic lights traffic accidents are higher with with the signal lights and the traffic signals have a negative impact for safety how much less would it be with a with a beacon would be less because the beacon would only be cycling with the presence of a pedestrian versus a traffic signal at ortega ariana and ollie that would cycle around to the side street for vehicles and of questions i'm a little confused i'm sorry when you said you would lo you would minimize the two lane to one name and it would widen the bicycle lanes what happens after that street nellie because that's not gonna be changed where did the bicyclist go i mean if the lane the bicycle lane is in that one section and then what happens where do they go i i'm sorry i just i talked to add france about this the other night and he he very avid cyclist obviously he was saying that the good thing about having bike lanes between perdido is that cota is it's not a recognized bike route in the city but it's well used by cyclists because it's fairly flat and it doesn't have a lot of stops on it between memphis and the opinion it creates kind of a false sense of safety because it's only a couple of blocks and they're back into the same problems that they are today that's correct okay that's one issue so  given given given the solutions that you've recommended i guess and i said this before i was hoping that your recommendations would have a long term face to the recommendation said this is something that would last for the next ten fifteen years as traffic is going to increase we know because of the freeway and i have not heard about the traffic that increases when there's a concert at the b and doing shows myself there and i mean in that area you think it's dangerous to walk during the day when you have all these out of town people who have no respect for the memphis residents and they're just speeding up or they're trying to get out of the bowl at night and people are trying to cross the street because they park five or seven blocks away i'm just concerned that that your recommendations isn't adding the increase of traffic at certain times and it's talking about the increase of traffic when the freeway in the next ten years let's say so i i find that the recommendations and just my frustration is it's very narrow it doesn't really give a sense of safety for drivers or for pedestrians because it's only addressing a little narrow couple streets and it's only addressing what's occurred it's not addressing the whole life of that street from total totality and i think somebody said that earlier that we had a master plan that addressed the whole section given what i said then your recommendation should somewhat fit into that in terms of its growth and i don't see how that it's very challenging you know if we if we start to look at future growth if we start to look at accommodating traffic from the bowl that all suggests not reducing lanes at all and and we're all all the different uses on milpas are competing for space we have traffic we have bikes buses parking pedestrians trees they're all requiring space so if we're going to have a conversation about long term planning that really has to involve whether or not we're allocating space properly right now and that would be a  long process going through a study like that you know we're focused on something we can do in fairly short order and i understand where you're coming from but you know the short term something we can do versus a long term planning short term how short what are we talking about this this proposal that you're recommending is good for the next three years i'm just trying to get a sense because the issues that i'm raising are not future growth they're there today like the freeway it's gonna open the bulls there that's not future that is today so give me kind of an idea of in how you did this an restriping the road you know one of the one of the things that also can happen with restriping the road is suddenly there's space available to widen the sidewalk that's a physical improvement that would be in place for many men years parking potentially even the sidewalk that's a long term solution jana and ollie you know that that solution i think could work for many years and what what would really drive that conversation to the next level would be a desire for space reallocation and realistically that the traffic volumes aren't going down we need two lanes of traffic in each direction there that's going to be very difficult to take that space away so what else is there to give and take there is parking there's sidewalks there's the trees you know that that's a really big conversation that  at was part of the safe route to school program we had applied for a safe route to school grant you know you know we did the curb extensions on by the junior high school in high school and we're also part of that was putting the  street just to give a little bit of ass warning of the crosswalk there i think it said no palfrey you know the cars on that street during the especially in the morning when students are arriving they're really driving at or below the speed limit but it's again adding something addition because we're the desire was on cota street that's where most of the student students were walking there and frankly when we were doing the analysis of my recollections correctly most of students when they were crossing memphis for crossing at cota street at the ortega street and that's where we really encourage them to across that ortega street quick question we observed some tricky maneuvering on our site visit on monday when buses were stopping cars backing up behind them and cars trying to get out of their way or get around them of the question being if the the neighborhood transitions striping were implemented with that allocate space for buses to be able to pull over and not block traffic on milka str m yes the the space reallocation if you will would include a wider parking aisle where a bus essentially sits in so yeah there'd be room for the buses and as well a bike lane would pass the outside of the bus and i just want to point out too that jerry fisher from mtd is here so she's as always happy to answer any questions about them bus stop yeah come back like in six months and reanalyze the data and possibly warrant or stoplights yes we definitely reanalyze everything and as well not pedestrians get across the street now and if it's working you know we probably leave it alone so but stop lights would be possibility down down the road issue wasn't working wasn't getting the job done if it increased crashes which i quite certain it won't yeah a higher level of traffic control such as a traffic signal would be a streets the school zone flashers would function essentially the same or to lower the speed limit during during school hours the school zone yeah we'd have to review that  yeah i i can't really say right now whether or not that would be appropriate well we have to analyze the gaps in traffic there's a lot of streets in the city that that have twenty students per hour crossing but you also have to look at the number of gaps in traffic the opportunities that those twenty students have to get across the street  if you find that the combination of the gaps in traffic and the number of students is high enough and difficult enough for those students to get across the street then what we need to do is try to find something besides a traffic signal to make that crossing easier for the students if whatever we try isn't successful you know the next step then is a traffic signal okay how i know where franklin school is so milpas then counts as an intersection going to a school in this case where you're counting twenty students per hour well any any intersection that has students going through it on their way to school is potentially a school used intersection okay so it doesn't have to be within like two or three four blocks no have a school no no it just has to be a way the kids get to school okay so theoretically then if somebody who lived at i don't know it's a mason street and went to the high school and they're going up milpas street they get to be counted at all of the intersections they would be counted crossing milpas and high school students are also kind of a special case they're they're adults  o more like adults obviously when you compare a high school student to a five year old there's there's gonna be different judgment levels but yes if a high school student were to travel from memphis and mason area up to the high school area we'd only be looking at where that student is actually making their crossings not whether or not they're walking parallel to the street okay so they literally have to student started saying mason and went down turn around and came back up made all these little crossings that would count correct it would okay yep okay thank you greene oh yes well i also looked up of warrants i was looking at warrants and i found this phrase which i thought was interesting it said engineering study data may include the following of course they talk about p volume and they talk about car but they also say information about nearby facilities and activity centers that serve the young elderly and or persons with disabilities and i thought that was interesting because it's seem to me might almost be speaking about ortega facilities the bowl activity centers schools and even the business about disabilities because the bus stop there the number two bus stops there and the two as anybody who's ridden the two there's a significant percentage of people with disabilities both physical and mental and i was just wondering if if that as it says here engineering study data may include have you have you include that when you did this did you think about the neighborhood about the facilities the schools the bus stops the disabilities yeah and and what what that's that kind of data is really leading to is how people use the intersection the street yes and this emma street pardon me yes absolutely and so when we're looking at an intersection and whether or not a traffic signal is the most appropriate form of traffic control we also need to look at whether or not there are good alternatives for people to be getting across the street so in the case of milpas and ortega you know looking at the school and how students are traveling to the street or traveling back and forth across the street we know that the vast majority of students are crossing a cota we did counts at both intersections but that's because it's safer right right and that's a good thing yes they're using good judgment but that kind of twisted i mean they're not crossing it ortega because it's dangerous but if you had if it were safe wouldn't they cross support it well we don't we don't always install traffic signals just to make it more convenient because of the safety issues you know if we can  address the mobility concerns getting people back and forth across the street like they're doing at cota without introducing safety concerns at ortega that's a good thing hi derek well i think we're all getting a really good education about what once a traffic signal and you know looking at the statistics and everything which is making it may be a little less confusing but what i'm still kind of having a hard time wrapping my mind around cross over to the marina and so those two non intersections seem like they would have been really good candidates for signal or for flashers so i'm just really confused as to why there's signal lights there and it's not even dangerous intersections well i wasn't here at the time when they were installed but looking at those intersections and the type of flashers that were available at the time the the flashes that we showed in the video weren't available  the type of flashers that were available a few years ago or the less effective kinds the the beacons like up front of the junior high school they're actually fairly effective on the narrower street with lower volumes you get to a wider street like  cabrillo probably wouldn't be very effective the reason those traffic signals were installed is the engineer at the time looked at the the movements of the area looking at facilities  going back and forth from the the beach side to the inland side during peak seasons the study was done and there actually weren't enough pedestrians to warrant all three signals so it was decided that putting one to be the best way to get pedestrians back and forth across the street between castillo and state now the the signal at the end of the pershing park bike path which is the signal just immediately west of  that signal went in is part of a the bike path project that bike path was actually supposed to go all the way through the park and meet up with montecito my understanding is that if i'm wrong browning but that path is actually why the signal at rancho rio and montecito was installed to provide a link through the neighborhood to the beach way a study was done as to how much usage that path would get and it was anticipated to be quite well used that path isn't complete that link isn't there so it's likely affected the amount of usage that i mean the ambassador park still he's a warrant correct yeah a study an engineering study than there is a study analysis and warrant i don't know where it is it's in oil project files and i haven't  i haven't dug them up okay but and then as far as the other one there should be a warrant also korea same therein old project files yes well being that we're talking about it because i mean there was a request on february th for the study analysis and warrant of those two signal lights mm hmm that's february th what's that seven weeks so is in the makings i take it one member of the public mentioned lowering the speed limit and could you just explain what happens when the conditions of road change so if there were they were transition str done and the decrease in lanes what does that mean for the speed the speed limit and can you explain the really weird thing that happens in california when you when you want to look at  speed limits right well in california state statutes that's how we have to set speed limits drivers actually set speed limits the speeds that we all drive on the streets those speeds that we're traveling actually set the speed limits now what that means is when we are setting a speed limit for a street we go out and do what's called a speed study we find out what the prevailing speed is being traveled on a street and the speed limit is generally set within about five miles an hour of what's called the th percentile speed and that's the speed at which eighty five percent of traffic is traveling at or below  basic premise is that most of us are reasonable drivers you know there's fifteen percent that they travel too fast they're unreasonable but most of us are reasonable drivers so if we set an artificially low speed limit that creates speeders out of people that are otherwise reasonable so that that's really the reason behind why the state has done what it's done is to not create speed traps and really let the natural flow of traffic dictate the speed limit what we've found on milpas street is the th percentile speed is about thirty to thirty three miles an hour we rounded that down to thirty and that's how the speed limit was  a speed limit was set at twenty five miles an hour i wouldn't expect a significant difference in the speeds people are actually traveling people tend to travel at a speed that they're comfortable with on a roadway you know there's always some people that are going to push it and travel as fast as they can but people generally travel what they feel comfortable you know they'll take the speed limit and into consideration but most most people just drive and if you're driving you're a reasonable driver and you're driving comfortably you'll you'll usually be within the speed limit now what happens if we reconfigure a roadway how comfortable drivers feel traveling at higher speeds can change right now drivers don't feel comfortable traveling very fast on the bus most drivers most drivers there's a lot going on on milpas we call it side friction when there's a lot going on you don't feel comfortable going fast when you're in  wide open space with a wide roadway no traffic around you you feel comfortable going fast but when you get into a constrained environment like milpas where there's a lot going on visually you know narrow lanes a lot of other traffic it gets less comfortable to go fast so what would happen if we were to do a neighborhood transition striping with wider lanes the wider lanes might make drivers feel more comfortable going faster it might  but what my counteract that is the fact that traffic would be traveling single file and that was those other cars that you're interacting with wouldn't let you go any faster so it's difficult to predict whether or not speeds would go up or down but potentially it could go up i'd expect it would probably stay the same okay and then one thing which i know people hate these and i guess i kind of do too but it was something that wasn't mentioned at all which probably means that it's not feasible but um there are places in the city that have those large speed bumps bumps whatever they call them here leading up to either you know a crosswalk or you know something something like that or you know making people slow down obviously why i mean is that something that would slow pee that generally it would slow someone down before a pedestrian crossing it would we have to be careful where we place speed humps in relation to crosswalks if you have too many traffic control devices in a old drivers focus on the first one and they lose sight what that means is it's designed to slow traffic down and that means all traffic even emergency response vehicles so our emergency responders they need to respond to emergencies quickly and if we put anything out onto the street that we would need to have them be in english and spanish i just want to confirm that that's possible and that's what we would put in if that's what was ordered the signs facing traffic  yeah and there there are no spanish signs in the mutcd the warning signs that we would give to pedestrians using those facilities we would definitely put bilingually so at the but yep and the premise is that it is a yellow light it is a warning device you know drivers there it's not a red light something to that effect cross traffic may not stop just something so that pedestrians don't just hit the button and march across the street you know hit the button look up street if traffic stopping for you then go that's what we want long term like visioning or something that occurred was before my time in the mix but i just be interested to hear what that came from and what happened to it and yeah i'm not even sure if rob is here when that do actually a beautification project and we had some money we had a grant to do and so one of the things we suggested it was actually what is being proposed tonight with the neighborhood striping the neighborhood transitional striping a three lane section  and then we were actually proposing it to increase some parking we're talking about some diagonal parking one of the things they wanted was more parking and they actually did not want the plan that ended up not wanting it because mainly because of the traffic congestion concerns would go in with three lanes and that's what they were concerned about and finally just just so you know kind of where that process ended up it kind of lingered for a long time and the money was eventually used for the  happen it would require a driver to actually drive out of the traffic lane and through the bike lane so it would certainly discourage the vast majority of drivers someone might pass where they're not supposed to but legally there would be no see cars going around into the bike lane to pass the slower car that's one and i do see it and i also see which is the reason i thought we were doing this was to lower the speeds and some cars are really good about lowering and others are still going there eighty miles an hour so i am just that's just a comment because that's that was a basis and i did mention at this meeting one of the meetings that i think mica it's not it's like you said it earlier it doesn't cover all the issues or the driving patterns that still can occur those are still gonna occur because it's driver driven the person driven does that make sense they're still gonna break the law okay um i just have one last comment and then a question for our officer and our previous meetings i've always said that we need to educate not only the drivers on all these new roundabouts on milpa street the bulb outs but we need to educate the pedestrians on how it's safe for them to when it's safe for them to cross like you just mentioned i believe in our other meeting there was another person that  know that they need to make sure that the car sees them and also you know just educate everybody all around whether it with the media television newspaper on how to maneuver around town with all these new lights and sidewalks and bull bots and stuff just to make thing as to whether people even though we're having meetings and even though it's been advertised and it was known that today was the day did people stop no they did in some areas though i'm s  nine people for failing to yield and what we did was we added a decoy actually from the traffic engineers office john russo comes out we worked closely with the traffic engineers office on a lot of things but he came out and risked his life and went into the crosswalk for us and mmm we had several officers watching it and what we do on these things is that we put a road cone up about two hundred feet from the crosswalk so we measure it out we calculate the another motorcycle that went down as well so we were two people short but we did this about a month ago and two in total we got sixty citations today and that's what we did last time as well but the media was great  they came out today and you know that's part of the education component that's why we do that and why we do these types of things is because we want people to know hey we're out there you know watch out and we also  stress to the pedestrians too that they have a responsibility as well so you can't just step out and expect cars to stop and come to a screeching halt you know everybody everybody's got to use their head when they're when they're out in the roadway the traffic's dangerous you know and everybody has to be careful history and the bicyclist was going northbound and he made a left turn in front of the vehicle and he was struck by the vehicle and he's in pretty bad shape though pretty unfortunate but you know we do the police department does work w safe routes and with the schools as well to talk to the kids about you know crossing the streets and where to do it and there are intersections that are safer than others to to to cross and so you know i do that myself  even today when i'm driving a motorcycle it's kind of a dangerous thing to do as well but there's there's places that i that all use instead of other places and that just that's just because it's safer so what why do you think the number of hi so in your professional opinion if there were a traffic light at memphis and jana and olli and somebody were crossing a pedestrian was crossing at the green light across  street where the car has a red light you wouldn't have given out thirty nine tickets today correct there might be so but i think you know when looking at these things you got to look at the totality of everything and it may be as a pedes it would be safer if they have a red light to cross but then you know i do go to a lot of red light violations and people who blow through red lights and there's pretty serious accidents there it is i've seen it in everywhere i mean vehicles bicycles it's dangerous no matter what you're doing and chances are you wouldn't have thirty nine violations if there was a red light no we wouldn't we probably wouldn't have those violations no thank yeah i was just going thank you in the interest of time not everyone is forced to speak so you do not have to say something so that's why i was going on period and now would be time for us to allow us to say what we would like i'm sorry i so okay doing a sting is different from regular traffic enforcement because i'd like to consider increased traffic enforcement on milpa street so what does that look like for our audience you you cruise up and down you park and wait for people to what does that look like well well we have right now over the past year we staffing at the police department is low and basically we have two staff patrol cars to answer nine  emergency calls and so when staffing gets low the first thing that they'll do usually is they'll take specialty positions which that's what the motorcycle detail is we're a specialty unit and they'll put them into a black and white so you don't have those officers that are out doing the specific traffic enforcement so i'd say over the last year we were down we maybe had one or two at best during the day probably since the start of this year even before that a little bit we've regained all of our officers so we have or most of them but we have five motorcycle officers and myself supervisor and what we've done is geographically split up the  entire city so i have an officer in each beat we have six beats in the city the east side of one beat and in the officer let's in charge of that area i direct i get all the complaints and things that come in and i review all the traffic collisions and look at all the stuff that's going on and and we'll have that officer just basically kind of like a bee coordinator but they're the through the traffic so if we do have like lately there's a lot of tension over on the east side so that's why we had to to places that we went to and clifton and salinas was actually getting a lot of we got a lot of phone calls about selena street lately so that's why we went over there but you know would you have the patrol officers that are out there and they're not only just handling nine hundred and eleven calls but they do do traffic enforcement as well so we have beefed it up i guess if you want to say that there has been more officers out there and and you know it's kind of a busier place traffic wise than some of the other beats those some of the officers help them out but your presence out there slows people down unnoticed yes id yeah oh yeah okay cool and then i want to take that into consideration and chair black question and this one would be of i think mister bailey and this one is your transitional striping goes to coda and you're saying don't make it go any farther south yeah it's it's certainly a possibility i mean the trade off for doing that and it's reallocation of space that we were talking about is increased congestion just because the demand is higher the further south you go so increase congestion so people would wait longer at the light yeah and could actually trade you places there's a light i can show available capacity and intersection is being used based on the traffic volumes so this top row here represents milpas starting a daily guerra ortega cota so this is the area here that we'd be talking about capacity is being utilized the letter next to it is a grade a is good f is bad just like our grades and in school so what this represents is existing conditions a da only half of the available capacity at the intersection is being utilized during the p m peak so that means there's plenty of capacity is fair so what that turns into when we go to the zero point six six so that kind of gives you an idea that there'd be a third more capacity being used at day llegar as you can see as you move down the zero sixty three up to a point nine to f and what this really means in real world is how congested it's going to be and how long it you're going to have to wait to get through a traffic signal you know if if we're talking about zero ninety two an f down here at gutierrez i i would expect it to take several traffic signal cycles to get through that light during the p m peak hour it it's been interesting recently that the fresh and easy store that's under construction here on the southeast corner of the intersection during the daytime they're actually closing the curb lane while they're doing work on the front of their buildings so we've been able to observe they're supposed to have their traffic control removed by then but during the p m peak i'd expect even more congestion so that answers your question i guess what i'm saying is not everyone has to speak if they don't want to or they can wait until if they're not ready if the wheels are still turning in your head when they get to you we can we can come back but yeah just going with  feels moved to speak but we can start on this end yep this way before too many nac members speak i would actually like to make a motion to for us to make our recommendation at our next scheduled  this way we can meet at a regular scheduled meeting and then come up with a proper recommendation to the rest of the members so  recommend date i mean for the request for whatever reason there was misunderstandings there was other staff i emailed other staff and i specified exactly what was needed okay there was a misunderstanding but since february th i i just don't see why it's not we don't have it that's just me okay and then also the  road is specification the diagram which i did ask as an individual as a resident thirty days later i find out as a resident you got to go about it differently and which i wasn't notified know we went back and forth over emails and i was never notified by you and so that was another month or so wasted and i just felt the specific diagram is necessary so then the business owners can see exactly what is going to be instead of just saying okay we're going to put our restriping road diet and then later on find out you know there's something that they don't like and if we had it if we could have exactly what's going to be striped would be appreciated but i still went to the how motions would work if someone from the nac makes a motion someone from the nac has to second the motion and then after discussion then they can vote and we'll do a roll calls to make sure make a sec a separate recommendation from the tcc okay that was the intent of this meeting so that there would give staff enough time to put everything together for a city council hearing in early may i think may first was actually with our targeted date for the decision i'm not sure if we delay your vote tonight if that will delay city council i don't know i would have to you know confer with with my superiors to see how that would would pan out so i would just want to caution you that if you do delay your vote tonight i'm not trying to you know rush you on it but i can also reiterate that we've this is probably our seventh gathering on this particular issue and i think the recommendations are very clear from staff as to what the alternatives are that you can agree or disagree with and  we had our last subcommittee meeting and we pretty much came to a decision and then the day is you remember the day of our subcommittee meeting was when we were notified of the open house that derrick and pat put on and then after that changed and new things have come into light and we you know didn't want to violate the brown act by saying what do you think about this new arm that wasn't here when we made our decision and i think that's where we said i think that's understood by me i think because i was in that meeting and i think that what we ha talked about was that the the health and safety subcommittee was to make a recommendation at the last snack meeting but because of these proceedings we were going to have that recommendation come tonight but on the floor mister alana's saying that he wants to delay his recommendation and gather more information and then bring it to the knack for a final recommendation is not together anymore it's just now that we have all the information and last week i did suggest or i recommended having a special meeting mm hmm and that was on thursday monday i was told it was i you know it's we have a tentative date to go to council you know it's not time you know date certain certainly we could push it back a few weeks i think the committee would like an answer to council as soon as possible you know so i think that's why we're here tonight in the joint meeting but if the that's the confusion again another another mission understand yeah that's the confusion so like i said i don't know if the final decisions made on april the th if i think that that recommendation has to be in the back up to council before the meetings your defense i do think that you all should be given the opportunity if you feel if you're not comfortable making your decision tonight and we're not pressed to go to council on may the st then i would want you guys to have the most comfortable decision i think that part of the problem was that my guess is that the traffic committee does not have subcommittees but are we have a large group on the nac and we've broken into several subcommittees and the only thing the subcommittee can really do is make the to invite to my knowledge is formulate recommendations and bring them up to the full nac for consideration and as  sebastian is noted that was impossible to do because of those time constraints whether we were unable to have that additional meeting so for us to meet bring recommendations up to the nd the large meetings that occurred after our last meeting lots of new information came lots of good new information came forward well this report was one of those major items that came forward after our last meeting so i think sebastian's got a very good point here that structurally we don't really have much choice because we all wanted to talk but we couldn't because we were bound by the brown deck and a clarifying question who makes up okay so is so is there any objection to calling the question all right have known of is that but my understanding regarding the ambassador park that was simply directed by staff they're really really my understanding the warning warrants done it was based on the identification of some of the installed regarding pershing park that's the one that we really have to dig through the files to find out it was built many years ago and so however it did have federal funding so there had to have been some study done and so we just need to find that bottom line is is that  vote okay so all those in favor of the motion is everybody understand the motion okay could you repeat the motion yes to postpone my recommendation into  recommendations of the traffic committee as well i assume that's going to happen this evening that would be a very valuable but that would be a very valuable input for our our deliberations that was it if that's the case that i would agenda how's that gonna work okay so for the nac even that recommendation and decision on the recommendation will be postponed until april eleven so now there's still another committee here and they you know need an opportunity to make comments and if and possibly a motion to go forward with some type of recommendations so we can we can start over here i think that the the making it a two lane the transition striping is a fantastic idea and it sure certainly worked well on cliff drive and my experience is that cars really slowed down so that would in my opinion of what i've just what i've seen that it would also address the speed issue and and also part of the you know long term plan with making room possibly for more sidewalk space and things like that so and the center partial refuge for safe place for the pedestrians so those those things just all seem so smart and so helpful and would immediately supply a did even if you really do want a traffic signal there it could be a road narrowing in combination with a signal because i mean they look at already has a signal and it will be narrowed there too so but i think the the diet road diet itself is a good solution now as far as both intersections it seems like there's kind of a trade off between you know i like the  a traffic signal would be even a little bit safer for pedestrians and a little more convenient but it would be a little less safe for drivers and a little less convenient so we're coming down to a policy question of do we favor the drivers and that's the policy question that i think city council should answer i mean i'm i would favor the pedestrians because they're more vulnerable you know the gesturing gets hit they're probably gonna die or at least get hurt really badly whereas a most car injured yeah most car accidents don't end up that way so but i would like to see us put intersections but both the traffic signal and the safest alternative solution which i think is the median island with the flashing light put those two options in front of council and let them decide i wanna the worst thing that could happen is that wouldn't be one of the that it would be nothing i think we have to avoid that so that's that's where i am  okay well first off i agree with committee member bradley the road diet or transitioning striping to me is just a given i think it would solve so many  and i think in general just by looking what happened at cliff drive i think it to me and cliff drive it makes you go slower it really does i drive that every day and you know you know sure i go at the speed limit but if you start creeping up a little bit faster there's usually a car right there in front of you to make you stay at forty miles an hour's so it you know to me i think it works very well and just the vision of a narrower street makes you go slower so in the first part you know an art a cad milpas i didn't like option to a with the medium on the north side of the street because of the drainage in that area the crosswalk would actually be not at the corner it would be kind more towards the middle away from the intersection so i really liked c i still like the option of adding the curb extensions in that corner it make it easier to cross you know so my preference is c but my really preference is put a signal there i've heard all these warrants i've been through this committee for many years and we've lost signals because of explanations of warrants but i think you know this area you're talking about a school a bus stop which we need to keep the bus stop where it is and that's there's not enough in that area and  we just need to make it safe for people to go to school and i think the signal is the way to go there i think we need to go on the lean towards pedestrians versus cars in this instance and really make sure the neighborhood safe we want to have a walkability here to the memphis area and that would make it people feel safer to cross back and forth so i'm looking at a combination of put a signal there narrow they you know the ro diet do the curb extensions probably would not need the medium with a signal i think that probably wouldn't have to be part of it so you're kind of looking at a to b and within three see what the curb extension but i think a combination of the two i you know if you cannot do the signals then go to the three c in that area and memphis and jana and olli that is a tough tough intersection there's so much traffic it's very narrow there again i'm just going with signals i mean but the signal there and the main thing i noticed and i talked to sheri fisher and i asked a question about why is it bus stop on the north end and not on the other side on the right hand side because when the bus we were standing there during the visit the buses would stop and definitely if they got off the bus it's hard for them to seat across the street there where if the bus was on the other side like most bus stops are i realize that has to probably do with property owner and they're parking there would have to be removed but to me that would be a help is just move the bus stop from the north side to the south side going south on memphis in that  corner but again if you can't do the signal which i prefer then option six with the medium island and of course those flashers i think would be great so that's my recommendation is put signals on both of them if possible if knowledgetree i think the most dangerous thing i see my own experience on crossing the street on whether it's cabrillo with two lanes of traffic de lovino through lanes of traffic someone waits at the corner some person in the middle of the street stops and then you don't know what you can cross was no one else has stopped and if you take that first step off the curb you're just glad your fingers crossed that everyone else is going to stop was once you get in front of that car they can't see you coming so that's why i think the  with two lanes going both directions and flashers because of my observations there the flashers are visible but you just cannot guarantee that nascar's gonna stop so i'm leaning towards signaling jana nollie and i agree that flashers could work at counter perdido no take a right of and of the options there of the three b or three c that's the way it goes i don't know that the median island is it looks a little confusing there with about and the median island for c i might lean towards three because you have one lingo in each direction and of a single row of cars each direction with a flasher there i think i think you'll it'll be a safe crossing okay so um so first of all i really appreciate all the input and i'm obviously people have gone on to live their lives and go home and have dinner hopefully and maybe watch watch from home  i really appreciate everybody who's been engaged and obviously not everybody could make it tonight but people have been to all the other meetings and people who have given their input it seems like there's been a lot of real community engagement around this and that's we always like to see that no matter what so i really really appreciate that i think one thing i'm kind of hearing consensus around on the tcc is the neighborhood transition striping or the road diet  i'm i'm one of the ones who asked about why don't we just take it all the way that jana nalli um and i i understand that that would be really gnarly especially towards towards  so i get that um i'm kind of trying in the in the vein of the milpas visioning that apparently happened and then didn't happen due to you know the wishes of the business owners or what having back when it was brought up i think that you know i know we want to get something done we want to get something done soon because anything will make it safer hopefully no matter what we do on notice but i think taking  view that is not just this is our one shot at doing something on milpas so you either got to throw everything at it or you know do this one thing or we're never coming back again  better make the right decision is not really the way that we should be looking at it so and i'm not saying everyone is or anyone is but i think not necessarily taking a super measured and slow approach but trying something to see how it actually works in the roadway and you know things that seemingly will make things better i do i'm a big fan of road diets seeing what i did on configuration so definitely supportive of that i think the rapid flashing beacons and the the pedestrian islands of which there are many configurations would be pretty effective i don't know i'm kind of it's i'm kind of torn between the overhead and the one actually in the in the roadway on the median i feel like that would be more visible especially i noted that picture right next to alpha thrift where you've kind of modeled what the thing would look like sometimes when those those ficus trees get a little yellow i would be worried that that it kind of in that picture looks like it sort of blends into the tree because those trees are like right at that height so i would i would be be worried about that um but i think trujillo said earlier about can we see what works and then if we see it's not working or some unforeseen consequences come up can we revisit it and can we move forward because obviously mil needs some love and not just and not just in the roadway right a larger kind of master plan sort of thing obviously is something that a business district like that deserves  so i would love to be a part of thing moving forward that's more holistic in the approach but i think that taking a look at something that we know will most likely save lives and and make it a lot safer for folks that it's worth doing that now and then moving forward seeing how it's perceived by the people who use it every day do they feel safer is it still super scary whatever and do that outreach to get feedback to find out you know what it's really like on the ground so i guess all that i'm not really working on emotion necessarily but those are the things that if it just looks like down the road it's a signal or nothing and like nothing has been fixed by by changing the striping or putting in beacons then maybe that's something that we you know are forced to to move towards but i think i think we might be able to take some steps that would make major improvements in the meantime are there  other comments from the committee or anybody else you guys can talk to manager yes well i just by listening to the committee members i see a consensus on the road diet in the upper part so i think that could be part of emotion i kind of saw a consensus for a signal at least at the jana nolle area seems like it was less maybe as part one okay and we i also seem to hear the support for medium islands but then i also heard more support for the signal right memphis but i'd be open to maybe doing the option three b or c for that intersection if there's not enough support for a signal up there another suggestion i have a suggestion okay and if we do just so we can give as much information to council as possible to be as clear in our recommendations as possible about where people are out on different levels maybe if we did separate motions on the different sections and i don't think we would need the other options in that with the traffic signal but i could be wrong yeah madam chair yeah i guess there is a chance that the council would not follow our recommendation and then we would want to be on record with what we think of those remaining two options okay so maybe word it as we we a recommendation education is we support a traffic signal at that intersection if that doesn't warrant a traffic signal there if they decide not to go that direction we want to show our support for some improvements in that area and those improvements would be option six which would be the medium island refuge  signal without a back up plan well why don't we could have two motions we could vote on the first one and then also do a motion on the second one and they would know what how the committee voted on the two i knew i knew that wants but i really think that the diet road diet and the other the flashing signals and the refuge all need a trial before going to a something that's been proven to be more dangerous for coalition's so i mean i just i can't in my justify voting for something that's gonna cause more accident so that dies for lack of second try again okay i okay i move that we go for option three c which is you read this off the  under three c so just just to be clear because there were several different configurations of a pet island at that  only guarded the islands only on one side of the pedestrian  can you come on i think we may have questions about this it could be either it could be either it wasn't shown as an alternative but we we could configure the island such that the crosswalk passes through the island with a curb extension okay so let's just bear with can we look at this yeah and other folks can definitely ask questions to or make comments and let's get it up on here so we're we're something like that anybody have a sharpie because we can't see that like that and then their apps would be something like so so the negative with a configuration like this is we may have to eliminate some parking in these areas here options generally we prefer to concentrate pedestrians to one leg of the intersection it increases the drivers expectation of where the crossings are happening this side of the intersection you could do a number of things it wouldn't match that other side of the road however it would create a shorter crossing distance as well we could likely squeeze a median refuge island in on this side as well again it would probably have to be the one where the pedestrian passes near the end because one located right about here would require removal of the bus stop and i just want to the bus stop located here there isn't enough room to move it further north because of a business driveway so anything in this area here that wouldn't allow the bus to pull in parallel to the curb would requires just to eliminate the bus stop altogether clarifying although i'm cherie fischer with mtv although normally i would never want to remove a bus stop i want you all to understand that there is a bus stop within a block north of this so there's one above the above  so that if this makes the whole thing safer then certainly were for removing the bus stop and the other thing you could consider is if you remove the bust up you may get back some of the parking that you're worried about losing so it's just a consideration for y over here question to remember could the best stop be moved on the other side of yeah this area here potentially that's yeah it would be a near side bus stop again which creates visibility problems at on signalized intersections sidewalk in the middle of the pedestrian island the one that's listed here does not have that are you saying that the fire department also says that one is also not safe for them to make turning radiuses we haven't approached the fire department with any of these alternatives yet but knowing what the fire department's concerns are it's this throat with right here know regardless of how we configure that median refuge oh and whether it's the crosswalk passing through the island or past the end of the island  that throw width would stay the same but that is the dead end street so you're talking about when they leave the dead end street that would be the problem there are two two concerns that the fire department would have one is their ability to turn this corner and that it is a dead end street it's highly unlikely another concern that they have is if there's ever for whatever reason an obstruction in this area here a car stalls an accident happens right here blocking their ability to get through whether they like to have twenty feet preferably twenty two feet available to them it gives them room to bypass something if a vehicle does taller an i was just saying that so we wouldn't have this conflict that we have to worry about is just move on without the curve extensions but have the island but i still my motion would be for the island positioned on that side of the street the south side not the north side because that it would affect the bus stop at all so my motion is to put the center island with the flashers the lower flashers on the south the one by the empty lot could you do i mean so basically to split the refuge island into two you have to move move it back in and have it have the ramps split out right certainty but i'm i'm kind of thinking we would have a conflict in this area in the where the existing curve is okay this area here there's a tree streetlight there maybe even be a fire hydrant right there right c right want one piece and with curved extensions right so i guess the question is okay okay well and then i gets back to the question so you could have a curved ascension on the one side and not on the other and it doesn't look like it would affect the traffic flow then i mean on the wes is at the north side yeah because that's you have a turn lane so it doesn't look like that would block for the fire department for making a turn into the santa barbara junior high school if they had to right and if there were something constructed on this corner we would have a radius that's where that is where the empty lot is and not have a curb extension on the south side because that would free up any potential problems yet you'd still it would make it shorter for pedestrians to cross but yeah maybe we can number the corners that would be awesome like is where the empty lot is and if the ability to turn the air conditioning on is in anyone's power that would be amazing you just have to vote no you dinner you can scrap it if you both agree you can scrap it or change it or whatever it belongs to the body but it i would let's be clear let's name let's name all the corners that would have extension in one wanted to minimize crossing distance that's why we asked for the the bulb else to be put in there there's probably a bad word sorry and two it might be more visible with the flashers in place there i've  seen the flashers working both in washington dc and in arizona i think it was in scottsdale arizona and there are same ones and they get your attention i i don't think they're gonna be the less visible because they're a few feet further back despite all the obstructions on both the street they're going to be visible so i support that any more discussion on that okay so all those in favor of that motion s for the recommendation i think is mandatory that there's a very short term follow up on the rob post implementation conditions and how things have changed and of i'm all for long range planning so a a sense of trust that we're trying to really work on the process so i thank everybody for participating but the only negative thing that i see is that with the and it was said earlier with the media this has become a very controversial and negative issue and i don't know why and i hope as elected members representing the city that we as committees do not represent this issue as a negative issue it's not meant to be a negative issue it was meant to be a protection issue and to address an issue that is not new it's been around for a while so i don't know how we do that but i am certainly very concerned that i don't want to be part of a negative it was never meant to be there and i just hope that with all committe ask the nac if you would prefer to have somebody from mtd there at your meeting to answer any questions this has been delightful that it's been long so you can that would be good okay from either committee all right yes stickler to the end thank you for doing such a nice job as the chair chair for these combined committees whatever there is no this this combination wasn't it's not a typical meeting for order i move as second all those in favor aye all right