good evening and welcome to world politics i'm your host bill wolff word the jewish community splits over iran war hawks want war with iran and their vocal the jewish federation of seattle just sponsored event facing the iranian threat that was unfair unbalanced and reached a foregone conclusion according to my guest tonight richard silverstein there was no iranian expert or historian in the discussion can the pro israel war lobby change public opinion if so america will have another war table it is my pleasure to welcome a courageous progressive jewish voice to moral politics richard silverstein thank you for having me bill richard my first question is you know one obvious one is war with iran imminent my answer to that is god i hope not you know i i share that hope we certainly don't want any more wars right i think that you have to approach this from two possible angles one is the israeli angle and one is the american angle i don't believe that the obama administration wants to see an attack on iran i do believe that there are strong elements within the israeli government that would like to see an attack on iran including israeli military how those two  entities are going to fight it out and which one is going to succeed we don't know so i think that there is a very real danger of there being an attack one that viewers better to it seriously and now i know that there was a forum i just mentioned the jewish federation of seattle organized by the local federation and several local community groups that i called you say the federation you're talking about the us federal level jewish federation along with a couple of local israel lobby groups like a pac that got together and brought three speakers from out of town one is a reporter for the jerusalem post one was a consul general for the state of israel in san francisco and the other was a lobbyist for a pack of these felt like yes they're heavyweight hawks but i would add that none of them really are experts on iran none of them have any academic training on iran none of them in their general work deal with iran the country they know anything about the culture the history the politics of iran the only one i would say the reporter knows something about iran's military capabilities perhaps but that to me was not a sufficient panel in terms of giving an accurate depiction of what iran is well who was who was the audience who the target audience for the event on wednesday the facing the iranian threat you know what's interesting about that is there was a target audience but the actual audience that was in the hall was different which i found interesting the target audience was the local jewish community and it was an attempt by the israeli foreign ministry and part of a national campaign which our local event was part to drum up support for a very harsh approach to  threat if i had a choice i would prefer on not to get a nuclear weapon i would prefer that no country that doesn't have a nuclear weapon get one however we have to look at things  like international agreements and under international agreements iran is entitled to engage in nuclear research they may not be entitled to under those same international regime to actually create a nuclear weapon but we don't we can debate about what he's actually said about israel the pro israel crowd says that he's called for racing israel and other people translate that differently to say that he's called for the disappearance of israel but anyway this is hostile rhetoric  israel off the map that was indeed mistranslated right but i often repeated for effect there's a huge amount of hostility from the iranian hardliners against it but that doesn't all of this what a lot of people think of as israel programming which is what the wednesday event was doesn't that have behind jimmy israel as the the ruler of the middle east maybe a proxy for the united states i think that that's a very big question a complicated question  what i would say is that israel has its perceived interests it is willing to go as far as it needs to go including engaging in violence to get the to succeed in realizing its interests it's going to go to war in lebanon if it feels it has to it's willing to go to war against hamas as it did last winter i don't know that i would go as far as to say hey gemini is its interest certainly we can say that in the uk the occupation and the way it's treated the palestinians that is definitely low enriched uranium going to russia in the france and coming back to iran but i think the iranians have rejected that was there any merit to that kind of a proposal in him that for me that was a very meritorious proposal and i thought that it took us a little farther away from a military attack if it would have been realized i'm hoping that this is just posturing on the part of the iranians and that some form of this agreement could you know come down the pike at a later date i'm hoping that there is pragmatic pragmatic pragmatists on both sides here that needs to be pragmatists on the israeli side on the u s side and on the iranian side what we're seeing is that maybe there is going to be a nuclear arms race in the middle east that iran doesn't want to give up its aspirations and that means that turkey and egypt and syria and probably saudi arabia and others are going to join this nuclear arms race they don't want to be left out yeah that was one of the arguments that the speakers gave and i think it's a valid it is real has and has been unwilling to have an international expect inspection of its nuclear facilities and israel has created a huge level of mistrust suspicion and  in its neighbors in terms of its own nuclear arsenal so for israel to say that iran getting a nuclear weapon would be the beginning of a lot of mistrust and fear that would lead other arab nations to want nuclear weapons is misleading because the fear starts with israel having a nuclear weapon and iran has never been an expansion is nation except for maybe hezbollah and hamas in reaction to that you know what we call blowback but i'm not sure that you could say that about israel right now and that is a very important point to another argument that people speakers gave on wednesday night was that the difference between iran getting a nuclear weapon and israel having a nuclear weapon is that israel is a rational state iran is an irrational state iran could not be trusted to rein in the desire to use a nuclear weapon and they feel that israel has a right to believe that iran would be more likely to use in a weapon in any other current  now you talk about the attendance at this you know facing the iranian threat on wednesday here in seattle was there did you see a schism in the community i found it interesting because i would have expected a community wide event that was publicize it would have gotten a lot more attendees and there were i estimate only maybe one hundred fifty people in the audience and the audience contained a large number of people who are actually hostile to the premise of the event it contains some arab americans it contains some lebanese americans or lebanese people there was a lot of antagonism to the premise of the event which i did not expect they expected this would be the true believers of the jewish community who who can see the the ideas behind the speakers and think that iran iran is an axis central threat to israel and accept the need for punishing sanctions and a potential nuclear strike well this is this means that the  cookie cutter method of going out to the jewish community is getting a little harder i think that's right and i was trying to do i blog it taken along as you know and i was trying to use my blog and  other medium media to let the community know before the event happened that i was unhappy with with it and so i think that possibly some of that led to a moderation of the speakers in terms of what they said and i think it led to people wanting to attend the event who might not otherwise have even known about it who came and raised questions during the program about the speakers what about what about the legality of the strike on iran is there under u n sanctions is there a basis for israel going on and i'm sure that israel could find a basis for an attack on iran you'd have to justify a preemptive strike as being a more important to talk in pragmatic terms about what the outcome of that would be i think that's very very important where you describe it as a catastrophe and i think it would lot of people would certainly agree with low back yeah i think it would be if you look at military affairs expert like anthony cordesman he's done a important survey on this very question he's asked would a nuclear military strike by israel succeed in either ending or significantly deterring the iranian nuclear threat and he finds that it would be almost impossible for that to succeed you would have to be so well coordinated they would have to have the right weapons and they would have to be used in the right way and they would have to have a huge amount of luck for them to succeed but even after if they did succeed the blowback from iran would be huge and catastrophic there would be attacks on israel israeli interests that could be a disruption of the straits of hormuz the oil supply certainly there be more soldiers in body bags in iraq and afghanistan iran could engage in a lot of trouble making in afghanistan and in iraq and not to mention the expense think of what the impact on the economy might be yeah and when i was one of the interesting points that one of the speakers made he said well i can i can foresee that the oil price that oil prices might go through the roof but that's not exactly at the top of israel's list concerns and he was serious if he were i think he was serious and gave ross the the moderator came back and he said well i think it might be at the top of the list of concerns of congress so there is a little bit of recklessness with this prop propaganda for war and i think that there's a psychological component of the way israel deals with issues that is very immediately focused in very short term focused and not focused on the long term not focused on what long term repercussions might be of what they would do now i know you're planning an event in december a town hall event you're going to counter what w happen wednesday which is you know kind of over the top drumbeat for war i understand that you're bringing in some iran experts and maybe a story and can yes tell the viewers about this event in december and tell the whole seattle i felt that it was important to have americans who also have some background both in israel's relationship with iran know something about israel in the israeli policy so we'll be having trita parsi always an excellent i've listened to his alternative radio talk wonderful right and he's written treacherous alliance which is one of the leading books on israel's relationship with iran he knows this whole situation day he has it down cold he was his organization was a tremendous resource in june when the turmoil happened in iran and around the i don't think that any anyone at least i hope there's no one in the obama administration who thinks that a military attack is a viable one they seem to believe that sanctions are viable but i don't think they are and the three speakers that i'm going to have a probably going to i don't know them their views exactly explicitly but i'm pretty sure they're going to argue that sanctions won't work either well certainly we have the russia and the china corot if we have sanctions right they argued about how sanctions would be effective or could be effective but they didn't mention except in passing russia and china which have shown no interest whatsoever in sanctions and seeing sanctions as a viable way of changing iranian behavior we cannot impose sanctions on the world without the support of our allies and we will not and i predict we will not get russian or chinese support now it's speaking of sanctions i know that the consul general israel consul general out of san francisco a government official representing the government of israel made a pitch for disinvestment yes you want to speak to that yes that was i thought very interesting aspect of his presentation and also i thought very cynical explain why he wants he's proposing that the state of washington take its pension funds and examine all of the portfolios and divest from any company that has any business interests in iran the reason why that is a that is a that is not going to work is that we had i ninety seven here in seattle a couple of years ago and that was a proposal that the city of seattle look at its investment portfolio i was involved in that by the way right and it was shut down right it was never even got to the people for a vote i think it was quite a bit of money poured into shutting it down and right i got some inside information that at least at one point they were talking about one hundred fifty thousand dollars being spent and they had a lot of legal power and they had a law firm they had consultants working with and on the other side they were just citizens doing a grassroots effort to bring consciousness is real and  in light of the goldstone report and for viewers that don't know the goldstone report praised in the criminal activity war crimes of both palestinians and israelis but it's dedicated like eighty percent israel who create not only war crimes were crimes against humanity in light of the goldstone report do you think that maybe they'll be a resurgence towards disinvestment sanctions and boycott of israel will there's a global boycott divestment sanctions movement it's b d s for sure and so this could be a boomerang for israel can that for the for the consul general tor to come in and maybe yes well i was a leave that's part of the cynicism that i was talking about israel is being attacked by this effort and there is this attempt at boycotting divestment and sanctions being imposed against israel and i think cynically they've turned it around and they said we're no we're going to use this against our enemies we're going to call for divestment from iran and the reason why i say that that is another reason why i say that cynical is that the jewish community here though that one hundred fifty thousand dollars was spent on people who argued that divestment was should have no part in municipal policy it should have no part in domestic policy it's a foreign policy issue not a political issue and pence should be a financial purely a financial issue the investment of funds and public funds should not have mixed with politics well here you have the israeli consul general coming in and are going just exactly the opposite after this community opposed the very argument that he is trying to make now so for him to come here and say that the state of washington should engage in divestment against iran is just the height of cynicism he's missing something he doesn't know how he's going to be our that movement i have sources within the federation who were witness to discussions with him telling him that this was a no go argument and should not be used it would not work it would make the community look foolish that they had used a certain argument and now we're coming around and his intent was to cripple iran not give it refined gasoline right which it's very susceptible to  deprive it of hard currency right now would be very easy to do pretty much the same thing maybe not refined gasoline but certainly currencies really foreign aid certainly look at these settlement industries and target them which was the i ninety seven right and that's going to be revisited at how about the propriety of a government official consul general from israel lobbying for war in the united states well the israeli foreign ministry it's diplomats here in the united states have engaged in a lot of activities that i find unpalatable they have they have engaged in placing op eds in various newspapers around the country sometimes they have actually written the op eds themselves and used individuals in the community to publish them for them and they are having impact wherever they can and they are behind a lot of the worst of the hawkishness against iran in the jewish community so we've had olmert come to chicago he was snubbed and then we had the top ranking general america into enabling in iran strike i think that we can you know we can object strongly to that kind of behavior but i think we have the only thing we can really control is our response to it and that's why i blog because i want people to know what types of activities them it's called a perception management campaign it's where you want to go to a foreign country and you want to influence the public opinion in that country towards certain interests that you have a certain have and there outcome their interest would be demonizing iran and and leading to a potential strike on iran it was one question that we haven't gotten into yet which i've been asking myself which is why does israel perceive iran as being such an existential threat because if you look at it objectively i don't think that that that is a valid or realistic fear that israel has suddenly even extended to the globe you know it's not just right they say that iran not just wants to erase israel but they want to destroy the jewish people that's that bibi netanyahu the prime minister of israel said that himself and that's absolutely preposterous now you you wrote about this you know there's a term write a primmer the global dictionary i don't remember what the full title was but it was one hundred pages of advice very detailed advice about how people should argue in favor of israel in the political environment here in the united states things they should say arguments they should use words they shouldn't use based all on focus groups it was quite an eye opener this these are the kind of geniuses come up with you know healthy forests and clean coal right all right well lance has come up with a lot of those you know you you mentioned i read that or article and you mention in there that there was that israel is losing that there's a desperation that's in suing yes do you feel that's true that the rhetoric has to be ratcheted higher higher because ultimately it's not effective i think that's true i think that we have an extreme right wing government in israel and i think that their level of a fear of an independent foreign policy they're very frightened of barack obama being elected president there he's a he's a he's an unknown to them and they're worried about anybody who's an unknown they prefer to have somebody they know who they feel they can manipulate they had george bush in the white house for eight years he was the ultimate means partner for israel in their policies and they don't have somebody who's is malleable and barak you think that part of this rush to war this drumbeat for war is  and run on the obama policy to make obama irrelevant the way that seems are making him irrelevant with the the settlement issue i think that if israel felt that it could get away with an attack on iran it would do it would do that i i don't know you know what how much control america can exert but people that i respect quite a bit say that israel could not go to war unless there was some at least at least tacit support by the administration they were good to be shielded  from china or russia or just the general blowback from a rand is a formidable country right and then they would have to probably either overfly iraq or get some kind of approval from the us but you know when we talk about iran strike we talk about the you know the israeli characters the hawks coming in talking to the jewish audience still ninety eight percent of any audience the broader audience is going to be non jewish right and it's going to be very diverse right how and they didn't want to understand the issue and i think it's very important and that is that the that this kind of attack on iran will raise anti semitism around the world there are people that confuses real with with judaism and say that what israel does represents all jews all around the world this is not true it's something that i would argue against in my blog constantly but there will be attacks on i predict there will be attacks on jewish targets around the world w progressive voice for judaism you support israel but sometimes you have to take you know a spoiled child to the woodshed and right deal with it is basically is that what you think needs to be done i think that israel needs tough love from the  current minister and i think in the administration i think could be d even tougher than has been and if they are to achieve a final peace agreement between his own the palestinians are going to have to be a lot of headbanging on both sides not just israel but i think that israel is the one that has the most power in the situation and barack obama is going to have to really crack heads and we need more people in the jewish community who are who are progressive who are not comfortable with what's happening to come in and represent judaism right even if they  they are very pro israel the best way to be pro israel is and that is the come out and speak progressive absolutely and that's why a new organization that's started about eighteen months ago called j street i think is very important and they're about to have their first national conference and i'll be attending it and that is precisely the kind of group that you're talking about they are encouraging all these voices and making them strong in the media and in israel itself the israelis are starting to listen to groups like j street and the attacks from the right here in the united states have been very very strong and in history and that shows that they are doing and they're effective yeah now you have a blog you mentioned earlier tikun you want to tell us about them i've been blogging since about two thousand and three right around the time the iraq war started  israel's future interests is sometimes they go to the woodshed and absolutely richard i want to thank you very much for your appearance here tonight thank you you thank