always funny microphone noises and we have a guest on the phone as well as a guest in the studio so perhaps you could introduce both of them yes we're dealing with a subject dear to most of our hearts and quite complicated today and we're very lucky to have with us representatives of the two groups that are standing up for the wild who eco forest which isn't danger of being sold the two groups are eco forestry institute society and wildwood protectors on the phone with us we have kathy code from the eco forestry institute society hello cathy hello there margery and thank you for the opportunity  appreciate it well we appreciate your helping us understand this eclipse quite complicated and it with us in the studio is robin hunter who will speak for the wild who would protect her scope thank you robin hi marjorie so i'd like to start with you and ask you to fill us in on the connection of the forestry institute society with the world who would prefer to up until recent forster's and who were interested in equal forestry and naturally they became interested in the work of more of wilkinson and many of them worked alongside him and in order to learn his principles and his vision then in terms of developing  sustainable eco forestry covers made early merv age you know he was quite concerned for the wellbeing and future and future of of his forest and he entered into a partnership with us on the land conservancy and in two thousand over a million dollars was raised in public donations that allowed t l c to acquire the property with us then appointed as the official forest managers you know yes itself donated over twenty thousand dollars to have in order to for p l c to protect wildwood forever so that's just a brief synopsis we've been involved in managing the forest for fourteen years narrow have a wealth of experience great depth of knowledge and about vision his legacy and a great desire then to ensure that that legacy is maintained and everything was going fine until money problems are up to twitch we've come to spring of this year i made a trip to wildwood they had an open house and while i was there connected with three other people independently who were also concerned about what was happening to wildwood this was the beginning of wildwood protectors and from there we have expanded there are people who have come on board who are also members and donors who also have been very concerned have tried to get have attempted to get as much information as we can about it and are very concerned that there's a charitable organization willing who has been maintaining the property has been mentored by murphy and is willing to step as very concerned it is very different for the property to be under the ownership of a private interest as to a charitable interest so that is our main concern and that huge concern for everybody now i had intended at the very beginning to take a quick look at what land trusts are because this can be just the the what the lamb trust is let alone the protection of the properties can be a bit difficult for people there are quite a few land trusts around in canada and in the states some of them are in canada national some of them provincially and some of them locally i want to be really clear that there is no connection in any way with the local land trust with the problems that have been raised by t l c the land conservancy based in victoria do is this they seek out significant property that can be acquired in the public interest and they try to get strong conservation covenants attached to those properties so that they're protected in perpetuity and some of this has gone awry with t l c and that's part of the problem we're dealing with for instance there are properties around and imo that were acquired but not managed and own by the local land trust and that's where you run into difficulties because that's where the costs rise and the other place you run into difficulties is if you take out a mortgage in order to acquire the property trust has never done that and therefore the pieces of that they have saved for us and the hard work against the huge machine of development around the world and it is tragic when we reach an impasse like the one over wildwood i thought it was really important to get that out there that not  are the same so having said that let's let's move to the issues with wildwood specifically as i understand it the t l c board of directors revealed a debt of seven point five million dollars about three years ago and set about downsizing and looking for ways to pay creditors they continue to accept donations from the public and trust for properties during this period which i think is questionable they culminated their action by getting together at the supreme court of b c under the company's creditors payment arrangement  which is purely about money and about it and they agreed with the help of the us and this is where cathy is going to help us out again they breed with the help of yes to a strategy that would protect nearly all the properties but it didn't have protection for world war two which they'll come to so kathy could you fill us in about his experience with what's called the plan of arrangement to satisfy creditors just for some reason the plan of arrangement didn't include wildwood in those ecologically sensitive properties the twenty nine properties twenty eight or twenty nine properties that were going to be transferred to some of the bigger land trusts of b c we don't understand why that didn't happen but we also realise and what's indicated in the plan is that there was eight hundred sixty thousand dollar offer then from private interests which had been submitted then withdrawn and then was said to be resubmitted in the near future according to an affidavit related to the plan of arrangement so that particular offer has sort of been in the background the whole time along and in the meantime e i a s has consistently offered a proposal i think would beginning in two thousand and thirteen when we realized that t l c was in trouble we offered two hundred thousand dollars then we managed to raise four hundred thousand dollars offered that then more recently we've had six hundred thousand dollars to offer them so we've been blessed by benefactors who believe in our cause and want to help us and so we're offering the six hundred thousand dollars along with a very strong trust and covenant structure that will ensure then that wildwood is kept in a charitable purpose trust or society  it doesn't fall into private hands we recently submitted we submitted the six hundred thousand dollars proposal two saturdays ago when t l c requested that we send in their proposal in time for their board meeting that day  we did so they came back to us with some concerns which we addressed we set the deadline then for acceptance for yesterday at four o'clock and we've heard nothing since then let me in the meantime he has helped us special membership meeting yes and imagine both of you know a lot more about the special membership meeting than i do although i do have friends who were there talking a few of the interesting things that occurred to go back to the plan of arrangement that was out with the under the auspices of a b c supreme court justice to go back to that in order kathy would you like to start and tell us what was your understanding of what happened at that special membership meeting yes unfortunately i wasn't able to attend the meeting but i certainly did send along my proxy vote in the event that could be used but in their introduction to special resolution in their materials t l c says and i quote wildwood has been the subject of an eight hundred sixty thousand dollar offer from an equal forester who printed with more wilkinson then they go on to say later on that they would be presenting all options and would be thoroughly transparent at the meeting so i was expecting that there would be an x further explanation of this offer at the meeting and i was rather astonished to hear that that was never accomplished instead the the concentration the focus then was on changing the bylaws itself which included in accordance with the plan of arrangement which included the potential eight hundred sixty thousand dollars offer that had been submitted withdrawn and was perhaps to be resubmitted again so that was not that was not any protection for wildwood at all and that was the main bone of contention and all that was attempting to accomplish only the the the constitutional change took the position of opposing that plan operated members is that what they were they were in  allowed to be involved so you found yourself part of a small group who had to come to protect a very important property and unable to make amendments that would safeguard because they trust their board we have to do that we have to trust the groups that we belong to and so here's a small group of people saying no no you can't do this because this precious property is at risk in this case we have an agreement made under the auspices of the supreme court in the interests of and which has been picked to do with the interest went of land by public donation to land trust has everything to do with getting money to pay off better terms and at this point i'm sure we don't all know who the priority creditors are but i would guess that the whoever holds the market on the mortgage property but something else happened to me well the day this is it isn't just about the creditors because there is a charitable organization willing to step forward with money to help with the debt so that's what confuses because they are they don't they don't need to change that doesn't nation the destination for a while but in order i mean they do need to change it in order to transfer properties but the charitable purposes of it they do stop they have a charitable organization willing to take it on so at the meeting we presented our arm and hand and basically it was to allow the transfer of the property but it was also to make sure that the charitable purposes was maintained and in fact that amendment brought by the board of directors failed when he did it well one of the things that we did was to really look at the bylaws look at their laws and really follow them and one of the things that it said in there by law is that the only members that are present are allowed to vote on the special resolution and that it had to be a seventy five percent vote in order for it pass because because they didn't pass and they didn't get the seventy five percent but created a very clear think that they have a good heart but we are very concerned about this decision that they're making emily we can't stand by to allow it because it has a much bigger impact than just filed well since the discovery of the tail so he has had some sort of a turnover in staff they are in debt to some of their staff members among other people the current director of operations was the person managing the meeting i understand and so he would be technically on stuff he may not be charging them a great deal we have no idea what they financial implications are for him the current director of operations  john shields who used to be the president of the b c government employees union and therefore has a very very clear understanding of organizational process did mr she and the people the representing the board including her chair ronnie penn did to be listening to the concerns of the world would protect troops and their friend my opinion is that they did not at all they came with a preconceived objective and i still want to pursue that yes so there's that we have a major land trust in serious financial trouble who made the decision to try to reorganize their money in such a way that they could continue in many instances i think an organization dissolves and i think that one of their concerns would be if they did meet the deadline of the plan of her arrangement that they had to hastily agree to a very close to it if they didn't make that deadline then bankruptcy would be upon them and we made it very clear that we wanted to be able to support them in their special resolution to transfer the properties we did the only part of it that we objected to was the wildwood part of it and changing the buy a lot to allow it or other properties to be thought of private interests that was there are only objection but but that objection wasn't heard and i stands now from our understanding they they do not have another meeting date and i'm not sure if they're planning to do so that's my understanding too that they're not having another junior meeting with the membership and stead they have a date with the court for july the twenty eighth and although we're not privy to exactly the nature of that court date it would seem that the i suppose that they're wanting the court then to approve the plan of arrangement that would be my guess anyway so we'll have to wait and see what happens with that but it should be remembered that t l c remains under court protection that the court monitor for another year they have up until june twenty sixth seen so i'm not sure what other  pressures and deadlines there are other than this particular court date but they do have another year in which to try and work this out meanwhile those legal bills keep mounting understand at the at the meeting briony pan announced that they'd already spent two million dollars in legal fees on this so another year of legal fees will certainly add up and and you have to wonder that people want to donate then so that they can pay the fees to that extent to yes we have but we found an absolutely wonderful lawyer willing to work at reasonable rates and we've also been able to apply for legal defense funding as well and we've had donors contribute to  our legal funding specifically and that people listening will understand the difference of contributing specifically told legal on whose behalf they understand what was being done as opposed to simply required by the time they get that's up for grabs you know whether they can get the court to agree to implement the plan of arrangement i don't know and certainly we will have a look at that strategy when it happens and then take it further from there but we are prepared to defend wildwood and you know that the thing that amazes me is that you know all this time and effort and money that's been spent on this we could have used that in terms of developing our educational and harvesting programs that at wildwood in and the wonderful things wonderful programs that we could have had in place by now instead you know we're having to devote our energy and our funds towards this but on the other hand the wonderful thing that's happened out of this is the huge community support that has come through you know spontaneous citizens groups like the the wildwood protectors we've had other land trust smaller land trusts who vic's who have expressed their support for us we've had professional and technical people express their support for us we've had donors and benefactors and and so much support you know all you look at our facebook and and just have a look at the history and some of the information that we have there we have all our press releases their information about the board of directors in their backgrounds and lots of letters of support and from of the trusting members of all of the groups who are local to their representatives to behave in the way that they joined them for to pursue the purpose for which these members belonged and it's very difficult for them to figure out what's going on so the next thing i just want to drive home is the the reality of and that and between the two of them those are the things that really protect property like wildwood and perpetuity the truss structure would be say a coalition perhaps of charitable purpose trusts or societies then who would be intrusted with the ownership and care of the property such as wildwood the covenant then is sort of the management agreement that enforces the principles by which that property is managed and in the case of wildwood  as you say if we can't afford one of those wishy washy covenants this covenant has to be something because equal forestry is based in technical experience and expertise it would have to be based on very specific principles and guidelines that would insure the diversity in the reason for the forest over time and it takes a certain amount of expertise and to take a forest in hand to be able to walk the forest to know  species the diversity the habitat the inhabitants know how the whole ecosystem works together as is in a cycle and know then which what you're able to harvest what you need to leave alone and how to c members but it's not just about supporting a decision by the board of directors it's about being serious about the exceptional nature of this property and the history and the opportunity to pursue eco forestry objectives son cooper i just want to be clear on that yes thank you for that i appreciate that clarification and what you have to understand is that is that wildwood contains a great deal of old growth forest now and merv were concerned about the property in one nine hundred thirty six it had never been harvested had never been logged so we have trees there that are over a thousand years old there's one called a fellow grace was one of  the thing is that wildwood is one of those rare jewels that remains with intact old growth forest within its boundaries and that's what we want to protect i mean if you're going to run an economically viable operation the first thing you're going to do is cut down those valuable old logs because that's where the money is right so in terms of equal forestry though you need to balance out the economic viability with the ability to retain the diversity and the resistance of the forest over time and that's where it comes tricky that goes into private ownership because the private owners only have their own resources and at this point one wonders where their particular offer of eight hundred sixty thousand dollars where the people who made that offer where their financial backing comes from how they have acquired that amount of money and whether in fact they're independent the way th well and i think that the members need to ask p l c more about this deal because you know we certainly need to know the details of that promise but all options would be explored at the at the special resolution understand that that didn't happen so i think its members an explanation of what about eight hundred sixty thousand dollar offer really involves who the people are and their experience and what their intent is and w to means for foreign term future of of world war because at the moment if wildwood goes to that offer it goes on and compared with the company and and we're going to come back to that because suzanne i think at this point you need to take about five minutes to to make some announcement and then we're going to come back to the question of the fact that while the wood has no covenant on it although it has been in the hands of t l c the land conservancy for we have a few things coming up i would like to mention at this point is the infringing dance festival the title of it if you were dancing in the belly of the dragon breathing the fire with something a bit ironic or i don't know quite what you'd call it about the weather conditions in the current situation on the island here but this festival by tango workshops and then a free fire and dance show with fire billy entertainment from vancouver and hopefully things will be under control with marian performing saturday is first nations are from brazil followed by some circus with best entertainment and more much of it is free and on sunday there's a free belly dance class for everybody with ramona who's well known here and imo there's more tango and a show about gender identity and community that i think is on both saturday and sunday for the whole schedule you can see crimson close down dot org and it looks like a huge amount of fun quite very you don't have to have a lot of money to go because so many of the events are free i'm fascinated by capillary because i happen says ovoid strenuous outdoor activities if you are experiencing any of the following symptoms contact your health care provider difficulty in breathing chest pain or discomfort and sudden onset of cough or irritation of airways exposure is particularly a concern for infants the elderly and those who have underlying medical conditions such as diabetes and lung or heart disease for over near your community and for general information about smoke and your health you can contact health see that's available toll free twenty four hours a day seven days a week at eight one one on the phone and they're really good i've called them a couple of times and you get some very good information and advice from them and that's also available on the web at triple w dot health link b c dot ca the program that you listening to i want to one point seven f m is changes and today marjorie stewart is talking with robin hunter and kathy code about the future of wildwood and i just wanted to mention that  ago was still alive but there are a couple of really good books that you can get at the library one is called wildwood a forest for the future by ruth loomis and now we understand that there isn't going to be a general meeting of t l c but there will be a court date july twenty eighth presumably yes so so what's the best way for people who happen to be listening to going in and setting their court date and intending so we're not exactly sure what's going on with that but you know we know we need to be prepared for whatever happens i also think that for the information people by the two of you can tell me if i'm wrong i'm going to do that first of all as i understand the importance of the covenant is that it becomes attached to the deed of ownership of the you know as strongly worded as the community is the fact that you have expert experts and professionals who are actually doing the monitoring on a regular an annual basis that's the real key to that because both the land trust and the forest managers have to be held accountable for the work that they're doing right so it takes it takes experts there who were able to become feel very familiar very intimate with the land they know what the habitat is they know the species that exist and they're in the ratios a lot of technical stuff that i know i don't understand in terms of equal forestry but the thing is to maintain the recently ensign in the diversity of the forest so you know you can't just hire somebody you know off the street to do that has to be somebody with a forestry background and with a particular item equal forestry so that the covenant itself must be properly prepared and it c then in addition to or six hundred thousand dollars is that we would develop not only the trust structure and have those specific parties identified but we would then engage then in a various strict covenant that would i think that there's been a very strong is this are in a position to have to create a very strong covenant and their intention as a charitable group would be to make sure that it is protected in that way our concern is clarify what seems to be going on seems to be going on is that the plan of the arrangement under the company creditors protectors that deals only with money and it requires changes to the t l c constitution within a deadline to years that they've they've had it in trust so the covenant is essential before the plan of agreement goes into place and doesn't seem to be a matter of importance to t l c is that what's worrying us i do think and and money that needs to be spent then in order to develop this i understand that that was one of the things that was the covenant was never put on wildwood in the first place once t l c owned it is that first of all we had to develop the forest management plan which i asked it pretty well on its own so what's the forest management plan was developed which required then a really good knowledge of of the forest you know what was there you know where it is what's there everything that goes on in the forests that needed to be needed to be described needed to be known in some way and then and then putting the covenant on after that i believe takes  fair amount of money and a fair amount of expertise to be able to do that and unfortunately t o c i think fell into into financial problems before that could happen who is the other institution that   a specific trust them for for wildwood that would involve two or three different charitable purpose organizations who would then band together in partnership then and in ownership of wildwood and then committed to a special trust for wildwood is the problem that agreement between us and t l c is not in place for the government part a part of the problem is that unwilling to give up this idea of some sort of private interest and in fact had suggested at one point that yes front the money so that licensed operators and could run a for profit business inside that which is just not on there should be nobody in a publicly donated property who is making money from that i mean obviously if they're providing a service for fees on an hourly basis or something like that that's fine but you know to to allow operators and to harvest trees on a for profit basis is just not going to work and you can see why a naive board of directors faced with the economic disaster would grasp but any opportunity to make sure that they're not faced with heavy operational costs but that should have been thought of long ago probably by boards before this board so that what they're trying to do is in a hurry put together a plan that will risk their agency and it sounds more seriously and why they continue to act so wildwood and a fireman and langdale which is not a place that's noted for its protection of its land have been accepted advice is to the deal members of the public who would like to be able to join the protection of well good well obviously joining the world would protectors is an excellent idea but just just being educated about the situation and not just just accepting the word of the parties in question the i mean don't don't even accept our word if you don't want to but do your research to really learn about the situation we're not just a small group of obtuse people you know who are who are putting up a fight for the sake of putting up a fight we have a real principles and values involved here that we guard the donating public and we we feel a responsibility to protect that we've been involved with wildwood now for fourteen years we intend to protect wildwood we tend to to protect the donations of of the donating public and to protect the eco forestry principles in the legacy in the vision of more wilkinson so the whole issue then is becoming really familiar with the details of really educating yourself about what's going on here and looking at what's going on behind the scenes we have a lot of information on  facebook as i had mentioned before but you know go go to the land conservancy us the directors i mean they're responsible for the decisions that they make you know ask them why they are choosing the direction that they're going in and i think eco foresters we have this very distinguished people on our board including dr nancy turner who's a really famous ethno botanist so we have a really a collective group but we're all bound by a love and a would we are indeed yes we're all volunteers we we stand nothing to gain personally we don't profit from our work at all in fact many of our members have put in many hours and their own thousands of dollars of their own money in terms of renovating the buildings that wildwood and keeping the property up so including our caretaker our caretaker bruce just received in a vixen notice yesterday to vacate the mobile home on the property and apparently to show wilkinson is claiming that she owns the mobile and has asked bruce to vacate within the month so you know we're really confused over now who actually owns the mobile home we had always thought that t l c had issued a charitable tax receipt for it so you know that's you know the possibility that we have to explore but we're really be we'll do it by this it just sort of came out of left field but you know bruce is the prime example of of a volunteer then who's on the property he's the ears and eyes of wildwood especially during this fire season i mean that's really important right now but he's escorted on a volunteer basis thousands of visitors in terms of you know walking through wildwood and explaining wildwood to them and he's also helped out in the renovations and and the property maintenance and you know for him so we would like it to be a democratic decision and one done for the in the best interest of wildwood suzanne i see you are taking note of these addresses and numbers does that mean people could phone c h l work to get some information or  i came up with what i think is the perfect one from somebody i've never heard somebody called mayhem in a moment who is a turkish economist and poet wrote this tree is a soldier forest is an army and let us wish but all the battles against this army last i'll give you that piece of ors wanting to donate to future properties and i think that is what i would like to see protected these properties are so important to protect only if that's jeopardized by chains changing the would like to thank all three of you kathy code robin hunter and marjorie stewart for the show today thanks to all of you and on behalf of our production team thanks to everyone who has joined