i did not go in the buildings i was looking at publicly assessable areas were representative paul it was referring to was contamination i'd ground level which includes all types of contamination all types of radiation there's more than just gamma radiation involved when you're looking  for the public where the public is is has more access ability and i will show you something that is just about this is a little radium dial right here and what what i want you to know is this  see when you're actually looking at the gamma radiation you don't have to get too far away before you're really not being exposed to it anymore i hope nobody goes and sits on a high like you suggest but that's a totally different it's like looking to delta's and oranges totally different way to look at all the radioactivity it's in contamination and not just the gamma radiation i think i don't know if that's more confusing or less confusing here if we show that slide again and the pictures are also up on the board from the heart of america northwest the the slide i showed was the navy's contractors radiological survey data here talking about a background level in the three to five thousand counts per minute and hotspots at one hundred eighty seven thousand counts per minute and when you do the conversion you're talking about very significant levels of radiation in the soil that's why we have to clean it up the radiation levels in the soil are so significant that what the navy says is they are cut off or what they will leave behind is results in a dose rate based on their expectation of how someone is exposed to it and not sitting on it for year but there are expectation of exposure of fifteen  add them instead of having one total that goes alone is significant we're talking about if you're exposed to year after year to it in a public park which is what we expect starting from  childhood you're talking about a significant cancer risk level that based on the most recent national research council data translates to a childhood risk level that could be as high as one and a half percent additional excess cancers caused from exposure over a lifetime that's high we think that the navy's level of fifteen milligrams per year is too high for a public park for exposure it's not that there were resistant to following th plan you do a record of decision do you design a like of his host on the board out there that's very very similar to the model toxic control that the writers of the model talks and control act in my opinion were very brilliant what at that time was circular and they took the best parts of circling and put it in the model talks of control act in the very very similar so when people say where three systems to following the mom talks they control act i guess considered equivalent to that the lot sell surplus considered equivalent to the national environmental protection act which requires an environmental impact statement i don't believe the model toxic control act requires an environmental impact statement she it it sure does the state rules say that you have to do environmental impacts state and we need to lease your cleanup plan for the public to review you've not them engineering evaluation costs as many or feasibility study or if you did the record show that you abandon it you haven't produced it forced review and i think we should be seeing that i have going to proceed with the work before the comment period even ends and in terms of process i guess i'd like to have you explain that one to us how the heck are we supposed to trust your phone in the process if you're proceeding with the work before the comment period ends or i'm sorry i meant i was supposed to answer the first question or the second question wait a couple questions we did in ten we did quite a bit of analysis on the soil around the buildings and in fact part of the removal actually was removed part of those that soil and those surveys are available online we also sampled along the storm drains and catch basins and sediments we actually went out to lake washington where that all is where the water for the storm drains through the pipe bowl exit into the lake we sent divers to try to collect material is so big it's all proudly out there there we couldn't collect a sample of the sediment and that's why we know that the next phase or the next thing we have to look at is the new shower area in the lake i mean what what is going on there  right now we're just trying to deal with where we know there is contamination where we know there is a issues in the most expedient way we can there is question why why are we going so fast we we started oh sure well to try get a question out of the i think i would explain that the way we do the environmental cleanup i mean we we go where we know something is and then we go out and tell we keep sampling out intel we don't find it anymore i mean that pretty typical way that we figure it because it's not possible to just go ok you know everything we have to actually go out and sample or it and we have shared all of that i mean it's on in the middle investigation there's a copy here today all the surveys are online this is the another hard top copy of the document with the d v d with all the survey results are in the information repository we're not trying to hide anything here there's no reason for us to hide anything we're just trying to go out and clean it up and then we'll continue when we're out there cleaning up we'll also be taking samples so we can determine if there's more out there what are the other things i mean one wonderful thing about doing this remedial action look at it in more information so even though there's more impacts the radium room pipe that i showed you in the drawing that was connected to the storm drain boy that runs out to lake washington so it wasn't connected to the sewer and you're right i think a lot of the winds were both water and sewer lines went to the lake originally so when the when the metro came in all those lines were put to the sewer but the old lines that weren't used anymore weren't yes the easy answer is no there's not that much material that was released that would cause the lake to become radioactive if you will or result in there to be exposures that are measurable at all that's that's just not happen not that i mean that the material is contaminating the site and possible pipelines and all that is is fairly i mean it's concentrated but there really isn't a huge quantity of it to where it's going to contaminate a lake like that while the lake per se which is huge is not contaminated if people are waiting through the sediments we don't know and we need to test the sediments no i agree with that i want to make sure that we're you know i i'm not saying your characterization of the settlements is required i saw that as a broader statement about the lake itself i do i do agree you know with the apparently there's no sand there i'm not i'm not familiar with the actual coastline there but i understand it's not sand but that's on the other side that's on the other that's on the other side on your dad that's farther and that's not where the so that wouldn't be an issue over on the other side of the outfall from madison beach is slower is stored in creek i think all of these falls are in the north correct you know so any of the beaches that are away from that we're not sure pearl web i have a blog on matters involving radiation radioactivity nuclear power and so on i've been walking for about the last year and i've studied a lot of information about radiation and the handling of radioactive materials worldwide down to local levels and i could tell you horror stories of the betrayal of the public trust by government bodies from international groups all the way down to city and state officials i don't generally trust the government and the government agencies to be completely transparent about what they're doing when we came to this meeting last time a lot of these same questions came up and we got a lot of the same answers and one of the answers we seem to keep getting is everything's fine don't worry about it everything's under control there really isn't a problem we're going to clean it up really fast anyway and i have a serious serious problem with the way the navy is behaving if they can go ahead with the work that they were talking about doing while we're off here babbling away at this meeting that they don't really care what we do or what we say or what we think they're going to do what they think is best are going to proceed with their good plan and basically we're just at this meeting to make ourselves feel better so that's basically what i have to say i don't trust the government and with respect to the transportation of radioactive materials the department of energy was recently busted in richland for moving radioactive waste through the city of richland with parade permits which have the absolute minimum protection for the public and also of delivering waste to contractors near hanford that was improperly packaged and emitting radiation when it should not have been when it should have been completely contained so i'm sorr the reassurances don't really help much action counts louder than words if the navy gives a damn the department of ecology and health are serious about this they will wait for a public process to take place before they take action if they go ahead and start taking action now they don't care what we think i wish to second some of what mr webb said i wonder when the navy claims that it is going to have a quick and expedited cleanup why it took seventy years for the navy to do this when this is existed for seventy years i wonder why the cit why there is a pattern of basically lying to the public by the department of health which when it is not persecuting alternative health practitioners is favoring and colluding with the pharmaceutical google pharmaceutical cartel to get legislation passed favoring it the department of of parks and recreation is part of the city of seattle which is not informing people about the broad scope surveillance programs in collusion with the department of homeland security the drones intel alights all these cameras all these things are not being told about and then we have the united states navy which is doing military weapons testing taking out and they frankly state this eleven thousand marine mammals and bio weaponized testing on human beings with us as targets which we're not being told about and building a one billion dollar dock for non operative nuclear weapons at one billion dollars worth of expense during a time of great financial turmoil within the united states so i don't think there's a really good track record of integrity on the part of these private for proper for profit corporations masquerading as government and i wonder why the people continue to tolerate this and not see the patterns of lies on which america at this point is based and there needs to be something done about it it's not just in this park it needs to be throughout this entire country and the people need to realize that they do have the power that they that the government agencies are all private contractors of the global form of the global banking cartel and that movements have to be made in realizations made based on this fact thank you very much because i'm just local resident i've been coming to this and when the area since i was about twelve years old or so so my concern about this activity here  it seems to me that the biggest danger we could expect in terms of getting some contamination or some some damage to somebody due to this radium contamination is probably going to be during the process of moving and the x excavation of the areas which contain it because you can expect some construction machinery and workers they spray that down with water to keep the dust down then then that's going to go into the lake where people are swimming so i'm just wondering what is the need he was navy planning on doing to prevent that kind of playing and there's a climbing wall right in within a couple of a few hundred yards or closer than that to where that activity is going to be going so that's just my concern during the process  because it seems to me the most dangerous part about this radium would be if you actually were to ingest reveal it as somebody might as it made me happy if it were to get into the air and then the wind would blow down towards  places in the park or people are having some activities out there movies and so forth that's my concern thank you thank you my name is richard ellison i think that the comment period should include all the question period i think the question period is a very informative time where people get a chance to exchange information and ask questions of the experts and i think all that should be part of the public testimony i don't see why it should be separated from it to the federal government is asking us and saying you know they won't tell us what's there i just looked in the document trying to find out what those water samples but i didn't find any and i found one soil sample that had one thousand one hundred ninety people curies per per g b as a soil sample and so it seemed kind of high and so is that indicative of anything that's out there that they're not telling us about so what is it that's been stored there is it all weapons that leaked i mean what was their having the monthly monitoring of the ground water and surface waters i feel is very important and should be mentioned included lake washing as a very large growing population and as the population increases the risk to those people increases because more people are on the site if there's a best available practice the state is doing this better standard than the navy standard than by of course you need to follow the most string to stand you can find you to be doing the whatever the state of the art clinic can be because this is a this is our seattle you know they're selling it downtown everyone comes to lake washington sure you know there's little algae another bite you but if this is going to be a permanent nuclear source leak over a long period of time then the first time we do it we want to do it right and we want to do it the best we can of the state regulations are better than the federal regulations in the state should be followed you know whether we whether it goes for with all the common person who want or not it should be at the state standard in the state should be involved with at that level i believe that there's all the video recording should be made available to the general public and be found online easily where do the old storm drains go if if you're testing the water just outside the lake here have you dug into sedums you said oh it's hard we can't get the samples and obvious you have to drill the samples and a reading in i've read said oh there's big  enter possible for cleanup at this site and nothing else is tolerated and we need to see all the data and know what's there and no one's being told what's what's there and and i think that's that's wrong  i think it's improper that the city of seattle and the federal government and whatever agencies did not let the public know that there was in fact radiation discovery a three years ago come on sale times desperate for good good headlines achieving a front page thing right you know whenever it was it's three years later and they saying it's not a big thing to clean this up well there's been a lot of money in this meeting i think it is a big thing to clean it up it's going to cost a lot of money i don't know where all the waste is going to go yeah we want to trust you know we can't trust our government to scientific level open to the public at the highest or possible thank you thanks john rogers we've been told by some experts and some state representatives said there are locations on this site that had high there were conflicting statements by  a representative of the department of health i believe dad had flybys by a helicopter showed practically no  radiation levels on this site he then proceeded to demonstrate two is that if you hold a geiger counter someplace where there isn't  radioactive material there you get low readings and if you put it close to someplace that has radioactive materials you get high readings  made i asked whether he had made measurements where the contamination was high and he did seemed to me to answer my question he said he didn't go into the building but he obviously couldn't have done measurements close to the radioactive material in the soil either because some extremely high numbers were presented by two other people on this and at certain locations in the soil i also wish to express my lack of confidence th needs to be addressed right the first time because when they haul away a bunch of dirt there is  containing contaminants they need to ensure that they've taken all the contaminants down to a level we're measurement  radioactive nests of the remaining soil is at the background level and it's not clear to me that the standard that the navy intends to work to you for coming and allowing me a trance to speak i must say that my overall feeling about this issue is one of rather profound distrust and cynicism i really do not have much faith in the navy i don't have much faith in the city of seattle in the state of washington and its department of ecology and supervising our front gate and our air station we had navy officers who would park on our base and then they would be picked up by a navy ship and taken out well actually navy boat and then taken out to one of their ships while these gentlemen would come in sometimes quite three sheets to the wind after they had been enjoying the the delights and the refreshments of the city one car i remember came into the base and i went on and saluted and they saluted back and then i read their style and then they zoomed off and headed rather disconcertingly towards our hangar and crashed into the front door of the hangar smash this was one of my experiences with the wonderful navy you know the city of seattle is also quite interested in the smart meters  the state of washington doesn't seem to have an awful lot of care about the hazards of these things it seems like pushing through the agendas and getting the paychecks and making it all look good seems to be the important thing well i don't buy it i don't buy it at all i'm glad you don't either i think we need to keep a very vigilant eye out for these people because if we don't watch them they're not going to do their job and i think we're sorry to see that thanks again honor hi good evening had really planned speaking this evening but i'll be brief oh sorry nicholas thomas seattle residence is there any other information you need for the record what i heard this evening was what i perceived to be a fair amount of minimisation of the issues here from  just about everybody other than mr paul at i question the framing of some of the numbers that were presented ultimately what i heard this evening  was more or less a sell job that what's going on here is really no big deal and you know i don't know if that is or is not the case but i just want to make a couple of points from that the first being is that you can convey just about any point you want to if you selectively choose the information you present and i saw a lot of that this evening too a lot of selectively presenting certain information that really drove home the point that certain folks wanted to drive home and the one thing i'm having a really tough time reconciling you know those figures those numbers that information with is the woman from the navy i can't recall what was her name miss o'hara mr polite got into an exchange where she was emphasizing why it was critical for some reason that things proceed so quickly without you know closely at hearing to the process and you know specifically the process for public comment and response to that was it's essential to move things forward very very quickly here and the question i'm left with is if what's going on here is really no big deal why the urgency why not wait and in do it right it's pretty much it so thank you for your  but as a biologist who worked in pediatric oncology for a dozen years and infectious diseases for many other years and our mental science for way too many years i can tell you there's more to the story what we have to what we should be worried about also is the long term cumulative effects of low levels of multiple kinds of contamination cancer for example is not caused by radiation alone or by chemicals alone or by infectious agents alone the two hit hypothesis tells us that in order to start a tumor you really have to have more than one biological event in this case that tonight where we're discussing radiation my comments are going to focus on a request to the  to the state department of ecology i would like to see at least a very thorough literature review in summer zation of what we know about the synergistic or cumulative or exponential effects of multiple carcinogens something in addition to radiation for example some of us in this room are also working on a dioxin contamination problem along the shores of the same lake in canmore very close to here the water flows from there to here every day all around this lake where we see wonderful homes and properties right now historically  industrial sites that produced all kinds of toxic chemicals whether they were toxic heavy metals pesticides pharmaceuticals paint creosote ing plants from the lumber industry anything you can think of but yet we're only addressing the issue of the numbers that show how many cancers or what is the risk or threat of cancer from radiation we should at least have a report for public scrutiny by the state department of ecology and by the navy that explores the concept of multiple synergistic carcinogens and then really look at what is the risk i believe the risk from what are called low level radiation contamination events is much greater than we can even imagine the biology isn't there the medicine isn't there but we should at least be exposed to the states and the feds best efforts at summarizing that situation for us thank you my name is a listen my name's elizabeth mooney and i live in canmore i'm one of the folks that dr honore was talking about that's concerned about the dioxin asphalt fumes that are up kenmore on the shoreline i appreciate hearing about the concerns about synergistic effects of multiple pollutants i also want to saying representative paletta and heart of american northwest because if it weren't for them i wouldn't be here i used to work on the site at hangar thirty two and this is a it's relevant because i think the basic point is that we cannot depend upon this site to be taking care of us nor the navy taking care of us and it requires this public process and the individuals that have come together to make this take longer and take more care and do it right so that the perception from the public isn't one of fear and we really don't need to trust just the navy will be able to trust that the process was done right so i'm fully in support of doing the testing this summer and then as recommended take those results communicate with the public have these great public comment times and then come back next summer and do it in a more slowly carefully instead of stirring everything up and who knows what got exposed or who got exposed method but i just as an example i used to work at hangar thirty two in the marine mammal lab and as far as i know it doesn't have rad ioactivity but let's face it it was navy base and when i worked there i knew i was at risk because i was in a hangar that was not intended to protect us at the same levels as we expect to be pretty protected now in offices or on playgrounds and beaches i was fortunate again to have a boss dr william bruce mcallister he's eighty two right now he's helping us in canmore and he knew that a spouse dos was in the walls of the hangar he placed me as a naive student in office where he felt that i was not going to be exposed to a specialist and other environmental pollutants so to the best of his ability he made me aware of the potential dangers and environmental pollutants and it has affected my adult life i'm actually running for kenmore council primarily because of asphalt fumes that are harming some of the folks that were here and left and it's it's just sad so i'm here thanks to the hard good work of represented jerry paletta because he like my boss bruce mcallister care that we are not unnecessarily exposed to cancer causing substances what i learned is that the navy wasn't worried about my health exposure to a specialist in one nine hundred eighty and i don't think the navy is in a position to take care of us now representative pallette has encouraged adopting a reasonable process to test before you churn it all up analyze the results of the sampling and come back next summer and do a neat job after testing sharing the information with the public some people some that left earlier i talked to they're not going to worry they're going to trust the navy but a few key leaders like bruce mcallister representative richard honore maybe boland or my friend who's out there know that it's best to protect ahead of time and not stir up potential contaminants possibly spreading radioactivity and suspecting people who are walking along the streets we've already waited three years as i understand it i don't know everything but why not wait one more year and share the information meanwhile the perception will be one of trust rather than fear and and there's no reason to rush the job to get rid of the problem quickly what car harm could come from testing this summer sharing the results and coming back next summer thanks covered carlson and i'm a resident of seattle and i'd like to urge the state department of health and the state department of ecology to insist that the navy conduct the cleanup according to the more stringent state cleanup standards and i'd also like to argue that the cleanup should be conducted as everybody has been saying tonight according to the best available information so this means testing the full extent of the contamination and that includes the drainage system the lake sediments and the groundwater yeah yeah i would and i'd also like to point out that most of the presentations tonight concerned radium and radon gas but as someone else pointed out we've got cesium and strontium that was found in that needs to be investigated and finally i'd like to ask for any  idea as required by state law so that alternative clean up plans can be assessed and evaluated by the public and we really trust the folks tonight he said there's nothing to worry about when the actual contamination was kept secret for three years  good evening and danny luna and i am just a private citizen living in north seattle sure ok luna i'm a private citizen in north seattle and i hadn't planned to speak tonight but i did want to say a few things i actually just heard about the hearing today and i think that there is a general lack of awareness that there really isn't an outreach plan outside of what a display ad in the seattle times so i did you know as much study as i could today read through the five hundred page final report i'm a little confused as to why we're having a public hearing tonight saying that we're commenting on work plan that is final and in general that really just the tip of the iceberg for a lot of questions that i have i do like the speakers before me concur that there should not be a rush i do wonder what is the rush because the the material that is in that soil is going to be there for another three hundred years and stable there  i wonder who is in charge who where the oversight is i'm hearing that there are state standards that are more stringent then this plan operates on and yet i'm seeing where there are mechanisms to report to a public official that is supposedly representing both the state and this federal agency i'm also seen in a separate document where it's pretty loosely faster the reporting requirements for their officer who's going to carry this out  his performance objective is to obtain final approval from the navy's city of seattle parks and rec and other regulatory agencies and that's about as specific as it gets i think there's a lack of specificity and kind of a loose leaf approach now maybe they think that there really isn't a problem but i was a little alarmed at the lack of awareness not only in the general public but from people that ought to be in oversight positions i found  online the report to the port of seattle parks board which was in april and it was looks like it was the first time that the ford had been apprised of this particular situation and i was pretty  surprised when i read this little paragraph and it really minimized it said that this was in reference to the news story last week so in other words  the wait for the news to break it and they minimized what level this contamination was gave no specifics and at the end there was just as of this little paragraph it said the speculation is that the custodian cleaned the paint mopped the floors spread it around then dumped them there mop bucket  outside without adequate details i can't really blame the board for not being more up in arms at about this but i think that that's really a gross lack of communication  we've being given very little specifics in that five hundred page report as to the actual numbers the actual data of any testing that's been there the raw data wasn't there so without that it's impossible to determine what the problem is because in one part of the report it says that there hasn't been exceeding the levels in another part it definitely says where those levels have been exceeded i don't know if that's in a mall  average i don't know where that what specific levels there are in which particular spots as probably a lot of people don't because a lot of it still unexplored but i don't know that  any studies have been done as to the actual proximity of people that are near those particular spots how long that exposure has to be before exceeds what is the tolerable rate and i also have questions about the federal rate and the level at considered safe because that has been really watered down maybe hundreds maybe thousands you know depending on who you talk to so i would like to know the history and which standards were at hearing to the standards in place today which are considerably weaker and some some controversy and finally i think that this plan is really not very ingenious especially in a progressive city like seattle it has these trucks coming in and the soils handed over in these trucks and it doesn't really take into any consideration though inert possible for some really innovative technology like using microbes that can act on the cesium using plants i think that some of these possibilities especially for the soil that's here you might want to consider those methods as well and not just some technology that seems pretty outdated with respect thank you  anyone else who has determined they would like to make a public comment for the record to staying thank you all for staying to be and for the record jerry jerry with speaking for heart of american northwest citizens gr working on cleanup of toxic sites around the region and i hope this evening because of the change of format and the presentations we were going to have many more answers and have the agencies accountable for those answers and to a significant degree the format worked far better than an ad hoc gathering in the back of the room when the navy held just an open house in may and i really want to be she ate the agencies coming together and partly because she's leadership in making this happen but what we didn't hear tonight are presentations that you're used to seeing on used to seeing at any contaminated site clean up which is for the agency to present the doubt up on what are the contamination levels where they are and the methodology is for cleanup and i don't mean a slide saying here's a picture of a pipe and calling at  presentation so i'm deeply disappointed in the agency's presentation tonight it did not need standard of what one would expect for public information so that you could give informed comment but what we did hear tonight is the opportunity to have on someone on the record at least in front of the public audience agencies answering questions and although it's not in the work plan i heard tonight that there will be a groundwater and lake washington investigation that's great it's not in the work plan now i'd like to see a work plan that has the details of that for us to comment on we're entitled to that if your best to gating says groundwater contamination we expect to see a sampling plan so that we know that you're sampling the correct locations if you're following circ law the federal superfund law it says that your sampling analysis plan has to be reviewed by e p a we've asked for that review and not having seen it i'm going to assume that you didn't do it therefore let's take a step back let's have a proper sampling analysis plan for the soils for the groundwater for the train lines and make sure that we do it right and that we get to review it i was deeply disturbed tonight to hear that intends to start acting before we've even close the comment period i thought you folks said that you want to turn the corner and show that you are open and meeting public concerns need to do that by acting before you've even received public comments much less responding to them so tonight you've heard several people asked for sampling plans and i'm hard mark northwest joints that the navy proposes to cut off its sampling and its cleanup action at its cleanup action level which is fifteen milligram of dos based on soil concentration for radio strontium and cesium now we believe that's the wrong standard if you don't get a chance to comment and review it the proposal means that the navy will stop and all those promises about we will chase contamination are utterly ridiculous and meaningless because there is no plan for us to review about what the sampling will be and the work plan today that we're going to stop at fifteen milligram on the soil guy that's inadequate we heard tonight yes we're going to follow m state law no we're not going to follow maka we're following circa but circle has no off ramp that's a quote from the presentation to avoid doing the full process i agree it doesn't but you have not done an engineering evaluation cost analysis which compares the alternatives and their impacts and it is the only reason why if you're under the federal law you don't have to do an environmental impact statement but if you're not under the federal law you're under the state law you're the navy but you still have to clean up under state law here and state law requires the analysis of impacts to be presented with a clean up plan for the public to review and we'd like to see it and we'd like to see it before you act so i urge you to stop calling this a time critical removal action do a proper investigation and allow us to see the sampling plans to review what happens in the event that the air monitors go off and make sure that they're in the appropriate  places and then come back and do the cleanup correctly once and for all thank you all very much for staying the night to question why this is the department of ecology in a position to dictate to the navy whether or not the navy can proceed with its cleanup plans as they currently exist i don't think so you know dictate is a difficult word there are different degrees of oversight and dictated implies that can you prevent them from moving forward with those plans if you disagree with those plans i  don't want to get into a civil discussion i want to have to be really honest here i can't give you that answer because i don't know and that is a legal question and you know and i would just be remiss if i you know let me say and let me wear my state representative hat on this it is unacceptable for the state of washington to not assert that it has a cleanup in the state of washington when it is not a federal site any longer and is nonfederal superfund list and i believe that it is incumbent on the state to take a very strong position and say you don't get to back in here fifteen twenty years later and say federal law trumps you any longer there is nothing in the federal superfund at all not a single word that says so and preempt the state law when it is no longer a federal facility and deed when the navy did the one letter the navy sent to the state acknowledge that the beginning of the process in zero nine that and i think that we need to make sure and take a very strong stand that our state law is going to govern and that ecology will be able to say you've met our state's standard you haven't met our state's standard you're meeting our state process requirements or you have and give the green light or