intellectual from israel just visiting us now five and i want to show the book it's called jewish history jewish religion subtitled the weight of three thousand years and i just say right at the very outset five israel to show on the cover it's got a it's got a forward by gore of the doll and it's got a statement of endorsement by noam chomsky two very very important intellectuals here in the united states and is raul as you say you like to be called welcome very very much to slowly ok now we have ok i want to go back to the original point you brought up when you said that there's this jump between classical and state of israel right there's a yeah and there was a formative period or something now when you go to classical wh exactly and they were using that certain sense because they were seeing that what they were able to do that and that put them in one of the points you want is that put the serbs who they were putting pressure on in the interests of the overlords eggs out the who got of there being persecution against the jews by the christians and this is part of it part of part of the history there is some of that but is it overdone in the face of you or out of beyond that was a limited perspective for country what would have been the dynamic by which the whole of the jewish people would be required by one sovereign to be expelled and under what conditions and how because i think when they are being expelled all the flooding as a whole for people i mean was like persecution we spoke before earlier throughout that period that they were they were very often baseless and serving the overlords now you just brought in a thing money lending i don't know whether there has something to do with usury or whether there are those scriptures against you  were able to do that i want to bring that in and then also the whole this whole question of you know when when when when did it change or what what is at the beginning of banking in some sense or what was their role and this question of in order to run a banking system in a traditional sense or as it emerged it was necessary that the concept of interest be one that could be in the normal business like kind of way become part of normal business operation became we now have people in the modern well just  jump will come back to the islamic banks try to get around the charging of interest as a principle because as proscribed by the koran this interest but is the world bank and international banking and the world banking system and the world economic system the concept of interest is a core precept by which the world is  things but anyway so you have this picture now you find that that runs counter to view of them being in a relatively good positions in terms of the whole of the society throughout a good deal of that history there was persecution but there was also that they were not as persecuted as many of the service of people below them they were intermediary at the interest of the overlords and they were told and they were tolerated by and large by both christian and islamic yes well throughout most of that history yet and that up and dressed up the but the relationship between those with a capital and those without the capital still exactly primary tension within the world yes and those who mediate between weld bang let's say i'm developed countr then and just i want to go back real breaststroke stroll over that long history up to that period and say that because we made it sound a little bit perhaps ideal again some people's minds and thoughts of it there was anti semitism anti semitism the took its form in the in the heart of the hitler's and the horror of the nd war is in a certain order you can after dreyfus right that the modern anti semitism that there was some entity some it doesn't historically but the modern  sink so it is an irrationality thing this coming out of racism zina fulvia and these kind of things if i may that you do you don't draw any fire i or any thing of that sort of thing when you begin to say that in a certain sense trying to say is that there are there is not only just orthodox you know neither orthodox or secular total with no religion right or do you think that we should abolish religion as any grounding thing for the they will say that they were and that you say in your book seems to be a something in your book is that internal to the jewish community itself is they deliberately isolated themselves from any of the gentiles apart from the persecution directed at them by their own internal  completely separate that everybody yeah we're the chosen people for we are through is somehow better than other trudeau's not the widespread among people in the world yet the basis of xen point out those possibilities to this and to warn against and to one against interior to themselves in a certain way you say the the accomplishments of the of the the jewish population in the modern experience  absolutely fantastic in every field imaginable they have contributed into you're yourself a real guy i think all of us are they they were learned because they've done they've contributed sofa and i don't know that it's going to be in this this attitude i  mean this thing we now have a book that's going to be very is going to be very controversial in this country charles murphy has written a book i forget what the exact title of it is now it's called the bell curve it takes the bell curve and it's measuring intelligence we're discussing it now and we're that you could go to be taking the idea of i q and he has said that between the various groups of the countries of the world and on a racial basis and other terms that some people groups have a higher i q and those who do well have a higher i q because they do have under the sun for that also is very dangerous this whole business of ethnocentrism and xena phobia as you say is very very dangerous because when you think about it it was that kind of thing that kind of argumentation was going on also very very very inappropriate not only among ourselves as a human society where we need to have a human to speak association with each other but one could draw that even larger in terms of in a certain sense ecology or a sense of i've not been there much but there is a problem of the way in which they have dehumanised in the minds of many some of the zionists and others in israel have d tended to do you know maybe i'm wrong strictly straight if i'm not have tended to dehumanised the palestinian people's will very often whose land they take them off and the arabs in general and perhaps even extending that out to the muslim or the islamic world and the dose would say now that they are powerful their new responsibilities that should come with that  events you saw the military the recent military history of israel is demonstrating that israel militarily vulnerable in the subject to defeat by the forces around them yet seems to me miss israel is the military superpower bought two hundred atomic bombs they've state solution there are some who would say radicals on the other side who would say there are not to be a state of israel at all i mean they you should have stayed where you were asked for and the state of israel zine is the whole zionist enterprise was wrong from the beginning those people who made great majority of people who are leaving united states cannot go back from weapons they come but you only have a handful of good indians you're not surrounded by men in the cold war if you were if he if we were on the eastern seaboard in new york city and we were surrounded by many many millions of many many number our numbers of red indians that situation might be different colonialism it was seen like that european colonialists powers had to retreat from had to retreat from all round the world all of africa india india and they had to pull back everywhere the european experience and do we see the israeli designed you know the zionists thrust being modern as modernization tied into the west and that being a ti on of the west into that large israeli arab underdeveloped world that we are going to tame that world and bring the western model to that and they will all become like america and israel is an extension of the west and th extension of the west into that muslim world and they are going to have to be brought around and learned like we learn and understand and as a conquering out of two that is help and after all they've won the war why should we be able to just dictate the terms they were after all able to dictate the terms under which they were going to talk to any palestinians whatsoever and they're doing it from position of absolute power that's the way some people see it and why should we have to put up with these people complaining  which mean we should get some yeah you say you accept the injustice usef injustice delivered on the palestinian people and there are some who backed off from that but you at the same time are trying to in a certain sense of i me you're trying to a certain say we must as jews divorce ourselves from the ancient historical ties to that land the ancient historical myths and myth ologies that we have here and yet zionism is in a certain self tying itself to that old history and saying this piece of real estate is and there is that special tie coming out of the history and while we want to remember the history also want to remember the thread that would give a special tied to this territory event is the basis of the zionist claim of even that is ok and you'll know next year was for me b in north american jews to take over the land of the palestinians and to take it over there's a reason behind that and the reason is based on the historical ties the jewish people had to the part of the world and that necessarily is tied into much of the sense the main claim that israel has to have the state of israel there and have the limits that they can achieve and so forth is a geo political war in the circle i would give a little power to be able to exert themselves th software had gone on maybe off clinton also and also that they've been able to garner in an incredibly effective way the support of so many people within the jewish community in north america to get us to put five billion dollars a year into egotistical western view in terms of the ugh broader world history in fact that's been part of the xena phobic view of colonial power throughout history that they must have the white man's burden of bringing civilization to the rest of the world and you know maybe the thing is that there's another book that's popular now in the united states called in support of elitism i think it's called but the question is there are certain elite peoples and we should recognize and this trend and this tide i'm afraid is happening in our country and i don't know if it's happening in europe as well a an assertion of the the of the western civilizations need to bring their institutions to the work the world trade organization the multinational corporations are coming now so that the powerful are going to be able to lead the weaker of the world and that's well the way it ought to be this kind of view of the world just based on pure geo political power and strength i am pointing to a very important not by me as much as that might be a tempting nectar to taste as it were having been in diaspora for so long that the ability to have the military power to impose your will upon a people does not necessarily lead  have that if they they can be defeated in a war they get is being you know that again is the war clouds are there again there is a run there has been a lot there's just poor corporal waksman was killed you have this tremendous hamas o even the accord the slight accord in the slight recognition that was given grudgingly to mr arafat and so forth that that was done was done to and you have within your own country that that is that they're going to be able to find that the arab peoples unlike the north american indian peoples are not are going to agree to this and they're going to agree to this because by and large you have the military power to force them to do it military power to force mr and can dictate the terms for which you will talk the policy and you have the strength you are coming from a position of strength and that you are bargaining for a position of strength and that gives you the ability to in a certain sense compel the arab or the haven't been in the still forces the due and there will be reactionary forces among the israeli people who want to break bones as they did you know during the intifada and so forth so the problems or the problems are still there is still the flashpoint of the world in a very real sense in the most dangerous area of the world and i think the they have ron shooting the killing of mr waxman mr arafat is in trouble he can hardly get any support for whatever the few things that he's trying to do this a secular minded modernist and so forth who disregard the fact that it was the call of the torah that this was to be done peacefully with st respect for the people who are living there and after my shock this is all to be thought of as being part of the