brother and they provide education and advocacy throughout new jersey and they actually in order to ensure communities affected respond to the needs of its children joe currently serves on the advisory board of option b at the  foundation and he's also served as the president of the national alliance for grieving children joe formally worked as a hospice chaplain at both the connecticut hospice and the hospice of southeastern connecticut are receiving his masters of divinity from the university he concentrated in end of life care joe is the author of what do we tell the children talking to kids about death and dying abbington twenty thirteen he's also the author of the business of grief which appears at the end of life true stories about how we die by c really grateful to be here well it's good to have you on and you've been doing a lot of great things with good grief and i know audience would like to know that more back good grief so if you just tell us a little about good grief and you know you know why it's relevant to not only princeton but also morristown and your new chapter in jersey city yes so i think i never like to just rattle off what our what our mission statement is because first it can terrify people and i think you have to understand that good grief is a place of of incredible joy it's almost utopia and it's a nature that we have we bring together a diverse group of people going through something so profoundly painful and forging a community in a support system together so we've got three components to our mission the first and probably the largest of it is we provide free programs to children ages thirteen to eighteen to young surviving parent or parents after the death of a mom dad brother or sister and we have just about six hundred participants that walk through our doors each and every month and growing the other part of the mission is education so we do workshops for teachers and administrators like yourself corporations as we try to improve grief in the workplace in really increased people's co level when it comes to how do you effectively respond to somebody who's hurting and particularly grieving and then the other component of the mission is advocacy and actually getting have good information and resources both on a local level and also on a national level and i think in a sense good grief has been in prison since two thousand and twelve i'm not and i'm grateful to be here because i'm not fully sure that the community understands what a gem is and it's backyard that the work that we are doing locally and nationally is just to use a tech term in some ways it's a real disruptor we're just for updating a culture and a society that has long perpetuated some real dysfunctions when it comes to how we respond to children in particular but you know people in general when they're dealing with with grief and i think what this community may not realize and a couple of sobering statistics the first being that mercer county has the second highest population of grieving kids in the state followed by middlesex county well you know enough it a lot of people want to know that right  the data truthfully doesn't tell us or give a any sort of clear answer to that but i think that's not necessarily the question we need to be answering because the truth as a matter is that this is prevalent  the research shows that one out of seven kids are going to experience the death of a parent or sibling before the age of twenty that's a lot of kids and i don't know how many people are on the face of this earth was like seven billion  next hundred years seven billion people are going to die right and i said i think we function in a culture that tends to think and act like we're all going to make it to ninety or ninety nine or one hundred but the truth of the matter is we don't know when death is going to come and unfortunately a scary as that reality might be death comes when death comes and it takes young people and it takes young people in this community and i know that this community knows a lot of folks here parents who have died students who have died and these are the families who are coming to good grief to get free support for as long that and we decided that we needed a space of our own and so we expanded to five mapleton road have a capital campaign to pay off the mortgage and what not but the person would tell you about is margaret will be so ten years ago  april twenty sixth of this past this past april margaret died unexpectedly of a heart attack leaving behind five kids margaret her family lived in princeton junction to her husband pete and the kids still live and i don't know margaret and ever knew margaret but i've had the privilege of getting to know her from her kids from her husband peter i've met her sister i've met her friends and  this is a woman who put her kids first if you knew any of her five kids you knew margaret because she was there she was showing up and when i when i've heard stories about her her friends and family talk about  real person someone who was really off center and was such an advocate for children and they say that if she was still alive today she would have given her all too good grief and you know i think when i hear this story it seems to me that margaret knew something that fred rogers also knew that what happens in childhood affects adulthood and the reason why i tell them that story is because the princeton center is named the margaret and will be center because the will these made a significant gift in her memory and i think that is an example of what happens at good grief we teach kids about legacy how to honor people how to continue to incorporate them in their lives and tell their story even though they're gone and so that's how i know about margaret because her family has been equipped with the tools to continue honoring her and incorporating her as a part of their life even though they now live with the pain she's no longer present and so at the heart of what happens within our walls it it is joyful it sounds scary that that young people die but to be in a community with other people who understand a community that is different from the rest of the world may not want to talk about it or may not have the language to relate and to be  c we see this stuff playing out for kids at their schools within their peer groups these are kids who get bullied because they have a dead parent or a dead sibling right and you can think like wow kids are little monsters and you know that's what we hear when i tell these stories about kids getting bullied but the truth of the matter is the peer group they're not monsters they're not equipped with the tools to understand how painful  devastating it is to lose someone you love because as a culture and as a society we're not we're not using the important language that helps us develop resilience that equips kids with emotional literacy than the ability to be more empathic to their peer group but we're doing that a good grief and we're doing that in all of our education and advocacy efforts which is why i think that this organization is an incredible yeah so first and foremost if we try to respond to kids like they're adults we're going to miss their needs and kids are not adults they are if they see the world through their own rich and in lives so we have to meet them where they're at and what the research is very clear about is that kids are vulnerable and for particular areas which is really laughable when i name them off because you're just going to say dude the research says they're vulnerable everywhere which is exactly what the research says they're vulnerable and their peer group and their school in their family and in the community at large and really it's how those four environments respond to a child and his or her or her needs but again most of these environments don't have the tools or resources to respond effectively now a kid ultimately what they need a response of relationships an adult who's going to respond to their needs not just immediately after some tragic death happens not just for two weeks or six weeks or a year but for many years and for duration of their childhood because by being responsive and continuing to show up and provide that support of environment that is how you teach and you build resilience with that responsiveness and but but kids are quirky right specially grieving kids they're challenging in that they need you to see them in to hear them and again  show up in yet they want to fit in with their peer group they don't want to be the kid with the dead mom and yet they still have needs so i think what happens is adults caregivers teachers  whomever they're not sure how to read a kid because they they know that the kid has need but are saying please only don't bring up the dead parent thing and so grieving kids require special attention and work and  and if you were to boil it all down like a real intentionality for school system like yours it's really looking at the culture here who are we as a school and as a community how do we take care of each other and when somebody doesn't fit the mold or somebody is struggling how do we incorporate them or when they break the rules because they're hurting how do we have some form of restored of justice and bringing that child back in rather than abandoning them and punishing them these are really tough questions and those are the types of conversations that we're trying to have with communities  because grieving kids continue to fall through the crack in the last thing i want to say about that is you know grief is hard and because it's hard people aren't sure how to not only that but you gave a ted talk recently you know and you basically i think it's called grief is good yeah you know and sometimes when you hear the the word grief it's good to say grief how can that be good yeah it's somewhat contradictory you know so how can someone who is grieving think that that is a good thing and i think that's something we think you were just about to explore yeah might think thank you that is that is where i was going and i think first and foremost understand that grief is a series of necessary responses that have to happen in order for you to form a new an integrated identity as someone who has lost someone or something that you loved right so we hear so many times from families that there is life before that diet there's life after that this is such a disruptive chaotic painful experience that it really it distinguishes one's life and yet what's so interesting when you look at our culture we want people to really return to how they were before about loss and we try taking them along what can't you be the old lou right but you're never gonna be the old blue because something really devastating happened to you and in the nature of our relationship has to continue because you're no longer old lou you're new lou who's experienced this this tragedy right but as i was saying earlier far lost my train of thought is that grief is hard and because it's hard it makes people uncomfortable but i think all of us have to have to ask ourselves the question of what what is the great what does the hard stuff in life he chose and how does it shape us and ultimately help us forge a new identity and the truth of the matter is there are a lot of people who want to follow gys grief they want to treat it they want to diagnosis give it a  diagnoses but the truth of the matter is it is a normal part of the human condition across every culture since the beginning of time no matter your race or your socio economics right everybody experiences great so you have to ask yourself if this is universal what is the purpose it serves and what i've seen in my fifteen years of work and with the thousands of kids we've worked with is that it helps us experience post traumatic growth helps us forge a new meaning a new identity it gives us the opportunity to become our fuller our fullest selves right and i'm not saying that there's anybody i know who says hey i'm really grateful that my loved ones died because now i'm this new me but rather than we change our perspective and we think about well how is this really complex and sometimes contradictory response that is grief when we're having grief what is that trying to teach us how is it trying to show us how to adapt to this new norm that we are now now that we have to face it  right that death happens and we don't have a choice it's a time of of no control so imagine being a child and everything is turned upside down and it's fully chaotic well what do you need supportive environment to help you navigate navigate your grief in a way that serves you in a healthy way because the pathologies that happen after grief are our complete social construct it's there are the result of the direct result of us as a community and as a society not responding in an effective and helpful way so grief is good and it's made good because of the compassion because of the support because of the community that that all of us who are not actively grieving can forge the quote of the of the points you made and that a lot of  a lot of us a lot of individuals have trouble with grief and mourning because it basically makes us mortals and we see someone else who has died and basically that may be part of the reason that we know that we are going to die too and that's a tough thing to look into you know we you and i are both going to die one day you know right and we both have an end but we don't know when that will be but there will be an end  but i think a lot of individuals have trouble dealing with the concept maybe not as quick as others to deal with it and i know that part of what you're what you hope to accomplish is to take the take the wishfulness and a lot of times people get into a depression when someone dies and i guess there's no greater loss than when a parent loses a child you know or but then then when the child loses the parent what stage and how close they are and how what advice do you give people who are really closely attached and they think basically they've really lived for their parent or a grandparent or their child and they're so attached that they don't really see life living the way it used to be and that nothing's going to be the same anymore  it would have vice to give individuals well some hearing two things it's how does how does somebody adapt when their identity is so fully integrated into the person who is god in it and you know and that applies both for kids it applies for people towards the end of their life you know eighty plus right like you've been with your life partner forever and now you're the only one left what do you do with yourself and the other part that i hear you talking about is also identity  there we have this fear of oh my goodness i have to confront my mortality and i challenge everyone to think about what if you were to confront your mortality that at any moment you could die is it a negative or is it an opportunity to reframe your life reframe your reframe your relationships reframe your own sense of meaning purpose and  ultimately identity and i think we currently are living in a culture and we in which we are chasing these goals that while they may become more tame obtainable they are not fulfilling fame and wealth and power and they were taping the show at a time when two celebrities who had all of this just recently ended their lives and i think it's so important for us to to really confront our mortality because if we do i think what we come to understand is that our identity needs to be richer than these external value variables that we need to be grounded in who we are in both our strengths and our weaknesses to have our own character development and to be comfortable with with silence and loneliness and boredom i don't think kids these days have developed that comfort level where we're drowning them in technology and as a result we're moving them further and further away from a relationship with themselves and you know when when  you're grounded in who you are i think you can make more meaningful choices that actually that is what leads to fulfillment and happiness its own groundedness and so to get to the other part of your question i think that's work it's a little more complicated because if we are also grounded and rooted in our relationships and we're living a quality life of life because of that human connection with somebody out when we lose that other person and if that person helps us define our role as a husband or a wife or as a mom or as a dad that is an incredible disruption to who we are and so i think when people struggle with that we community this guy was a whiz he was in the hall of fame for some of his accomplishments and dad was dying that pretty quickly with a diagnoses and keith went to him essentially on his deathbed and said you know dad i'm really struggling it as well what about and he said the more and more i think about what i'm dealing with with you dying and i'm looking to my friends for support i'm realizing that my friends are not meaningfully they're not helpful i don't actually believe that they care in me about me and dad said well why what are you going to do about it and and keith said well here's what i think i'd like to do with you will you help me figure out how to do this and what they decided on was keith during lunch one day it was going to announce to his friends i don't find you to be supportive and here is why if you would like to change that you can and then you have to and this is a fourteen year old picked up his books and went to the other side of the cafeteria all by himself and for seven months waited out lunch every day by himself until full real friends started to emerge and started to meet his emotional needs and that's an incredible amount of courage as you know lou from being an educator for a kid to confront peer pressure like that and to be comfortable in his own skin and when he tells the story which completely filled my eyes with tears as he was saying it you know he he talks about how his dad was wise and helped him figure out how to do that at the end of the day dad is now gone i can't fix that you can't fix that nobody else can fix that all we can do is provide the opportunity for keith to remember to share to continue a relationship with his dad so that even though is dad is absent from his life physically hist can remain present both in the nature of the relationship that they had and  a special and important moment like coaching him through what i would imagine will be a moment that he remembers for the rest of his life when he thinks about how do you define and how do you seek out meaningful relationships the end of the day it's on all of those to choose to step up and to become that meaningful relationship to children and families who are hurting especially after a loss before we go if they go if their judge want you to let the audience know about they want to get involved you have to committee members get involved with good grief and they have to be spread the word and you know hopefully you can you know in the minute we have left hopefully  community despite the hardships that bring people together and so come for a torch come see the center we have a volcano room we have an art room we have a kids and we have a theater with all these breakout spaces it is pure magic within these walls this is not a sterile environment at five in fulton road this is a home where families come it's a refuge to come on a tour volunteer lotsa ways to get involved the most meaningful ways to come be a facilitator go through our thirty six hour facilitator training make a year commitment and actually be that caring presence that shows up and supports our families them and earlier us talking about the market and we'll be center that is our center at five middleton road we are in the middle of a capital campaign so we would love for continued support so that we're not just focusing our dollars on funding the house but on reaching more and more kids and just to be ambitious here we have a summer camp that we do every year it's amazing full immersion and we have twenty kids from princeton who want to get to go up to our morristown center to be in camp but we need five thousand bucks for getting a bus to rent every day for a week getting kids back and to continue to do the the good work that good grief is doing in supporting those who are who are grieving so that's a show for for now we will continue to have some future shows  referencing some important issues that we have received requests to have on and but before we go off the air i would like to thank princeton television for the recent co sponsorship of the mess of film festival which was held may seventeenth the twentieth at the princeton garden and also the arts council prison which was held to packed audiences we thank you with our thank the arts council and wish for all those who were there who who saw the short films will be back next year