congratulations on the five year birth of this book thank you very much a long time on it and i'm a long and distinguished writing career that many more should know about and welcome very much conversations the guest is russ so w baker or ross baker that's relevant and perhaps to what we could discuss briefly he's a writer extraordinary if i may say so here personally having read a great deal of his work and he's the author is written many articles peacher articles for major publications vanity  fair publications across the spectrum new york times post and so forth and he's now written a book that he has finished five years research on as you can see it's called family of secrets a major study of the  bush family and russ welcome really very much conversation thank you carol my pleasure could you with me bear with me a little bit and share your own background this can be the rust baker our sure made here born and raised education a little bit like that we wait in ok  born and raised in the beach cities of los angeles's near venice i got my bachelor's degree in political science from u c l a and then obtained a a master's in journalism from the columbia graduate sizable communities of one hundred and eighty nine of them in the new york city area it's really an interesting place to be you've picked up right you've been writing now you were in journalism you've been writing these feature articles and so forth when did you get going how is it coming out of graduate school that say when did you get started where did you get started and are you freelance or where do you stand i call myself independent ok that's a better once in a while i've taken a pay check from a news organization it suits me to charge my own course yeah i got a master's in eighty eight and left immediately for central africa before the wall came down i was there actually when the berlin wall came down i was johnny on the spot covering that for news organizations all over the world in radio and newspaper articles then in later in eighty nine it was back in romania and i was basis some of the major not i have been sometimes had some regular ongoing relationships but usually in these situations i just go because it's one of the perks of independent journalism that you can that you you went to you went to what was rwanda or something before so you would have had i was just curious or it was burundi's right right next door to room as you were in that area but you had you sense from your reading of the human condition or something that that was going to be were something was going to happen you sent things they had when it becomes the flash news story of the hour the minute i wish i could say i was pressured i mean that's were already things were starting to happen in burundi they'd had some massacres over the course of several days but the world's attention was not focusing on it and i made a quick decision in consultation with a friend who worked for a european news organization right that this was a story worth pursuing and that had a great party with a lady or something you happen to be there and it happened you know what i'm saying no i mean i you're consciously sending a pattern understanding the evolution of the human condition and that sort of i mean i had just come back from east germany and saw what we saw the writing on the wall and i thought by romania is an interesting place because he's got such a lock on that country and people were in total tear it was it was much more a lockdown than than most of the other eastern bloc countries and it wasn't clear what was going to happen but i thought that something would happen and so i was already had sort of pitched the story and was on my way when things began to happen so i was one of the st reporters into the country heard for you know as everything broke down good for you i can remember having read george candidate all the containment theory and all that kind of stuff  world with the soviet union and i noticed our cia intelligence agencies and so forth in a certain sense admit to and did in a certain sense sort of missed the coming downfall of the soviet union they were still all caught up with the pattern coming out of history they sort of missed this story with all of their resources to be able to where things are major the happening you're an independent you can be in those been used and sniff things out in advance of when they actually hit it sort is raises serious questions about the legitimacy of those things whereas intelligence gathering which is a is an appropriate activity of any organization and they don't necessarily always score that they're not so intelligent necessarily they don't have a very high i rating they seem to be tunnel vision and they don't see things in a big pattern or they they seems to me that they've got tunnel vision and they're not you know this early kate and as internationally so we really don't know in a certain sense in a distant early warning sense mcluhan used to write about the happenings that are coming and were sort of blinkered or you know driving into the driving into the future on review mirror to the intelligence community in the united states is typically recruited from a too narrow a slice of humanity and the to some extent that's what my book family of secrets is about is this very narrow slice of humanity who sort of made the rise of the bush as possible those are the same people who very much of dominated the intelligence have those same kind of people down mineta d intelligence community informing the political process throughout a good deal of human history i don't know about all of you know you say but i will say certainly in terms of american history since the cia was created in the forty's came out of the o s s or you know it was somewhat of a different group the o l now actually had at of him as someone a more varied yeah a group of people because it was wartime and yeah time you you do you just do get some more diversity yeah but cia was very much created out of the ivy about but you know it was five years of research so you must have five years of got the idea that there would be the need for a book to come out on the week that mr bush leaves office with a book of bush a book that showed what the reality was there so that's five years prescient getting ready for the future out of the book come about i think the book is a major thing different than a piece for a newspaper or news piece much less even a future article i mean you're wanted the book to come out when it came out this was their sense that was the right time right in the final weeks of the george w bush administration i got the idea to do this book again on a foreign trip it  two thousand and twelve in two thousand and two i was asked to go to the former yugoslavia very often there are these programs where people in different fields go was not the peace corps but they go for a little while they work with people they train them and i was asked to go and work with journalists over there and try to sort of teach them some investigative skills and to give them a tool kit so that they could investigate abuses of power in their own countries and sort of help foster a vibrant democracy coming out of the ashes of the or if it wars of that region and so i was there in two thousand to i ended up becoming becoming fascinated with the region and staying on well past my my this is a short period that was supposed to be there and i was still there in two thousand and four i was there in the run up to the iraq invasion and i noticed a sea change in public opinion toward the united states both in the former yugoslavia as well as throughout europe as i would travel around people who had formerly been so enthusiastic about the united states as sort of the the shining beacon of the value as you all aspire to and so as soon as this it became very clear to people everywhere but in the united states that this war was being sold under misleading circumstances and it was very clear to me and i wrote some articles back in two thousand to two thousand and three saying that that it seemed to me clear from the evidence that this was whol iraq yeah and so basically what happened was i when i got back to the states in early two thousand and four i said to myself how do we get in the situation in the larger question was how did we end up with this very unusual man is president the united states and he's an unusual fellow to rise to the top in anything and certainly of the government united states and to be really the most powerful person in the world and i've always been interested in these assessments that take place later where other countries have sort of had truth commissions or tried to figure out what happened to their country that they ended up where they were and i had a sense that there really wasn't enough of a discussion of this and i was sort of it seemed bizarre to me that more people weren't interested in the simple question did george w bush get to the top and what did this mean was this just happenstance was it was it the brilliant strategies of coral rove was it was it george bush bush's personality was it a fluke was it that he is opponents maybe were not as strong as they get in packs supreme court was it the supreme or was it the you know the hanging chads was it all yes it is and more and so not knowing the answer and i and i almost never know the answer when i go in and do a story and it seems to me to do good journalism you shouldn't know the answer get the reality right or i suspect my opinions once i have the facts but in any case yeah so what i did was i came back here and i began traveling around the country on a sort of a quest for answers just talking all kinds of people do you have the contract for the book i had nothing and i had a very very little be entertaining and to be a little bit of a bit of suspense but this is definitely nonfiction it's totally non yeah one thousand footnotes in there and all the sources are no where you had good training at the graduate school of columbia and making sure you do that that's good and then you did that so you got interested in that in the personality and the phenomena of the what's the connection between george bush and the neo cons well forward and oh i mean that's all well known i yeah i wasn't going to i mean many books sort of reiterate what are in other books you know i think one of the strengths of family of secrets is that almost everything in there is unfamiliar it was unknown to me and it will be unknown to anybody who picks up the book basically what happened was for the  year or two even after i had decided i was working on a book i still didn't have any answers and i looked at everything i looked at george w bush's business is his relationships i looked at his values i spoke to i interviewed thousand six hundred people in the course of doing that anybody and close to him or not and now there are some people who are close to him and they were loaded in the book ok but they're not people who we've heard from before is it hard to be able to get in touch with those people if you're trying to keep your access to sources that smearing to them because they've been clear because what they're going to say is favorable now let's step to me that's unfair to the audience particularly if you've got the temper temperament of an investigative journalist that's not exactly wouldn't investigative journalist should be it's not i always had the opposite direction via a crowd well i think you're running against the grain which might be a good idea i mean because you're doing that kind of thing but then so you did and you're interviewed a number of people let me just about nuts and bolts did you tape any of it does your audiotape videotape any that i use the internet heavily for my research i do a tremendous amount of using databases archives so i do the old fashioned stuff i go and i sit in some dusty basement and look through old pieces of paper i used to have to do in the stacks so i assembled a collection of about i think it's about five hundred books seriously for this project so i would get background information on all kinds of issues and you actually got those in your presence on a shelf somewhere where you got a whole wall of this just books in now we're into warrior no twenty million fifty two thousand and six basically a few things struck me and this is really what would lead me to the revelations of family of secrets what struck me was that pretty much everybody said to me you know george w bush is so different from his father and if you know his father really wasn't that bad a guy and there was a sort of a rift or a falling out between them and i thought i always examine the conventional wisdom on anything so i thought is that true and i wondered about then i wonder well how could the son have been president without his father's support and of course he had his father's support so i thought it's interesting that they they've sort of pitched this notion of him as kind of a rebel from the family tradition the old blueblood you know connecticut based kind of old money situation and the more i looked the more i realized that that was not true then the fact he was very close to his father and that he saw himself as carrying out the sort of values conspiracy conspiracy is a category of crime that exists and it's a federal offense and felony and it's a group of people whether it's organized crime or a bunch of people in a company who there is a pattern of working together yeah i mean a crime in any case what i found in my research from family secrets what i found was that they had deliberately created this smokescreen that in order to get george w bush into the white house they had sold the public this bill of goods this idea that he was this kind of  and in fact he was nothing of the kind he i the nd half of the book is mostly about george w and i've examined the companies he was involved with most of whom have never been scrutinized or written about before and i found that he was involved in companies said these are not normal companies they don't make any money their books are a completely unfathomable and this led me to two basic basic question which was well st of all if they were trying to make it seem like the sun was somehow alienated from the father and in fact the opposite was true what did that mean well basically george w bush would never have been present united states of his father who had the same name and had not been president so i began focusing on the father in the st half the family of secrets is about the father because the father turns out to be this fascinating character all we know about him is that he was supposedly an oil man and then he became director of the cia for a signal that it is prescott bush his daddy was george to h w bush no no connected with and working for powerful families you know the the rockefeller's and their amends in particular and in any case what i looked at with the father was i started discovering all these questions about the father he had been cia director for a year and dollars and they had said that it was odd that he would be cia director because this was a period of ferment there were congressional investigations going on into cia abuses domestically and abroad all kinds of unauthorized  activities certainly the coups and they've been carrying out all over the world and so here they put this fellow in it was sort of a milk toast who had no intelligence experience i said doesn't make any sense what i discovered was indications that the father george h w bush or bush forty one as we call them you know actually had a secret background in intelligence work all of his adult life that he had been a sort of you might say working undercover when he was in the oil business and when he was a congressman when he was an ambassador a document showing him in drilling company with an active duty cia officer having just a handful of rigs traveling all over the world in in explicable flurry of activity for such a tiny company with just several rigs putting his rigs in places like right off  of cuba before the bay of pigs invasion and i thought boy this is not a man who's trying to make a buck in the oil business he's doing something else so really i was into that kind of thing that that is really very very very interesting and so in so family of secrets basically sort of pulls back the curtain on this apparatus and gets into the question of who one of the bush is in power who are they serving what interest and it explores the  efforts of this sliver of the upper classes united states to sort of control the extraction of natural resources all over the world called the oil copper of sulfur uranium titanium all of these things because this is how you control power is you control these resource going to a sidebar a little bit when you started political science did you get it they used to call it political economy back in the one thousand nine hundred century did you study much of economic theory or  thinking informed by serious considerations of geostrategic theory and so forth and the the organization of power on a world scale through history or did you get into that sort of thing you can study political science at the local level of the co office or something but you understand did you deal with geo political theory i study international relations international later to politics which is where you compare the political systems of different countries right and i was very focused also on history ok well let's go and then history get a sense of continuity in that i think hasn't it always been if i may ross is not always been it seems to me because i did you know politics and that kind of thing it's always been that you do have a small elite in virtually every political entity in the world that runs events you know a person is just elected and he's there are an individual doing whatever he does until he's no longer there and one of the things i do in family secrets is i actually ended up sort of going down a rabbit hole and i never expected to do this  and i discovered that linkage between a lot of different events and i found that one of the things that really surprised me that was the extent to which presidents of the united states and i mean all presidents are under tremendous pressure from these elites this is something we don't see  not discussed on the evening news or or on the talk shows and they are in tremendous pressure and i think they understand this and we see presidents being assassinated removed destroyed by scandal almost every recent by the way i did you know that before yeah and prior to writing this book i have to say i never really paid much attention and he said yeah i had always thought you know what this is too much of a mess and complicated there's hundreds or thousands of books on this everybody's sort of raging debate how could you ever and sixty three this is the day after kennedy's assassination and they were briefing them on issues related to cubans and the kennedy assassination and it named the two intelligence officers who were briefed one of them the name was george bush of the cia now this is thirteen years before he becomes cia director supposedly as a so called intelligence virgin and so i was intrigued is this the same fellow and what does this mean isn't that part of their curriculum for the elite to be able to be in thinking about the  leaders the real power i mean those who go to harvard and so forth that this becomes part of the education it would be aware of that kind of reality han's morgan to all the people that write on can all this sort of thing would be part of the training for a future leadership political leadership wouldn't it be absolutely and yale for example where where were multiple generations of bushes when was the principal recruiting ground for the central intelligence i think that's right yeah you're right hand there are  loads of people by the way in the media and everywhere else who were there who joined these secret societies like skull and bones and were being asked if they would like to enjoy the intelligence services and in family secrets i get into some media figures who at least have shall we say the fingerprints of more than just media work come out of this mill yeah and so anyway with the kennedy assassination and of course we don't have time to get into it i have five or chapter in family of secrets of new information all documented i believe seventy percent of the american public believes that lee harvey oswald did not act alone what i get into in this book is specifically following the trail of friends of the elder bush who were friends of lee harvey oswald people who by the way there's into a payphone any call the f b i said he wanted to remain anonymous but he wished to report a possible suspect in the assassination the man he named who he said he didn't know much about was actually a man he didn't know and by all the indications he knew that this fellow was entirely harmless was over in houston which is a long way away from dallas it was actually a volunteer in his in his in his garden rather than headquarters and he knew this felony knew he was harmless and so why did he make who is trying to do having problems with watergate and george bush is asked to become more asks to become the director and the head of the republican party and yet even though he's the head of republican party at this very sensitive moment the history books have no mention of him he's not mention practically any of the books about nixon there's maybe one sentence or something i thought well how could that be he's running the republican party during the cover up what's his role and how does he evaded scrutiny yeah and so this then we create several more chapters in the book where i discover that in fact he and a lot of his associates were angry at nixon and it turns out any of this totally astonished me that richard nixon was not exactly the person i thought he was he was a much more complex individual now he had basically been  the moment richard nixon was selected to run for congress in the st place funny wow you know he's the i'm the reason crazy quote yet and the reason was because the man that they wanted to run against was deeply involved in calling for more regulation of wall street  york now very brave and he tried to get to the bottom a lot of these things yes tragically he died not that long after that you know cancer but he really made quite a go and i think it was responsible for for heightening public he help you in terms of your research and to open any doors for you to be able to go down that rush or because they asked a lot of questions and they they exposed the fact that the cia was doing things like testing things like truth serums various drugs to see  history of the united states where so many presidents have been shot you know so many attempts on them and in every single case they always say it was a lone kook yeah right and yet in every other country where where some head of state is taken out it's always not alone kuya right right it's always somebody to reagan and all that but the father's always been a master of plausible deniability here oh aren't they if the family said i was out of the loop yeah and i took bob woodward to task for this and by the way have some interesting revelations about bob woodward really self because one of the things i discovered in the course of doing this and this really blew my mind was that the whole watergate thing was not what i understood it to be formers well no no no that in effect richard nixon had nothing to do with watergate with any of these break ins that he was basically a fellow who was charging a kind of an independent course once he became president he decided this is his moment for a legacy as i think they all do when china in seventy two he started doing all kinds of intel whether radical yeah he created  environmental policy for united states he set up the e p a he set up a new labor regulations health regulations he did all he did a lot of thing that they did that normally you might have thought a democrat would do and what i learned was that richard nixon was angering the pentagon is out of the loop they're very angry about the defense contractors are worried because you know when you have peace you know we have an economy that he largely the worst thing we're going to magically based on a you know war right here and so they start becoming uncomfortable with him the oil  with white from the moment he got in office the other thing he was doing it was fascinating was he was fighting with the cia from the moment he became president really demanding files on the bay of pigs and on the kennedy assassination really didn't want to turn them over and he was upset with them and s secrets i believe that richard nixon was framed i believe that richard nixon was framed by a more conservative more establishment interest and i thought that i believe that instead the facts that i assembled in the course of my research when you put them all together you can't come to any other conclusion and so i've got several chapters with all new information and then watergate on are that's going to come of that and then it comes up to the bush legacy of the last few years why when you see the bush legacy the last two years is really an outgrowth of this new of course that's what i'm trying to be always a struggle between the you know between the public interest and the and the and the objectives in the interest that i use that line already review the james joyce that history is a nightmare from which i'm attempting to awaken history is that way i mean and we maybe had something in pre empire days you know oriental despotism and all there was some democracy but it's always been a few people run everything and they still do well as george orwell made the you distract us you know we were we spent more time talking about a football game you know when we would ever spend talking about this book and i watch people going to bookstores and you know they may see the book to me even have heard about it they look at it for a nd and they turn to something about diet y philosophically i don't know where the hell voltaire or wherever big thinking people and everything i like polar bucky fuller marshall mcluhan i don't know these kind of things like that but i mean we now have a unique capability of the homo sapiens to extend consciousness through technology make the world different in an even like sense given which is a lot of most all the creatures and now we've got and much of the research into development and the covert in the black ops and all of that is in support of research and support for weapons systems will give an advantage to a certain tribe to go steal the grain from the other people over there try that kind of thing and we now have weapon systems i wish you could research maybe you have a very dogged and so forth that it is true that the weapons systems that exist collectively here on planet earth and so forth now have been since about the year one thousand nine hundred and seventy now our species liesl do you believe that's true that if there was a mix up guns of august barbara tuchman you know kind of thing alliances and the weapons were in some spasm of hatred unleashed that it is modeling that we have a capability now to eliminate entirely the human species the weapons that existed while the aggregate had that since the unleashing of the adam but we also have it in terms agents and so hardened i'm sorry we also have in terms of all these biological agents we have a lot of different yeah on top of the hydrogen and the teller and all of that has been built just by a lot so the point being in the nd world war we couldn't we were trying gonna vonnegut god bless them slott you know bombing dresden firebombing tokyo and that kind of we were trying to kill each other as best we possibly could these elites are running this thing and getting people ginned up for war and that kind of thing but it's coming to some extent your new reality when you've got weapons that if they were we couldn't do in the nd world war i was born in such a short time to two hundred thousand years of human existence we get to an existential new point in terms of the evolution of our technological capability didn't stand absalom then something on the positive side we've got a capability of doing for all the people and the ecology and all the creatures a capability that our old and hared systems don't allow us to realize we don't have a system in order our economic system just means it upside the head something on the positive side could be like that this is really a very unique time to be alive participant conscious and evolution and this is a consciousness itself this is an interesting time to be constant struggle but the internet allows people to communicate with each other to organize to gather information and one of the things that we're doing i've started a nonprofit group called the real news project our website good who what why yeah it's close i've been there i've been there and i had to put it aside a little bit when i finished the book but in the in the coming months we're going to go forward we're going to ask the public to fund us so then we can do investigations into all these subjects or talk about the proliferation of weapons systems  who runs things all of these questions what's the story behind the wall street is there no more stuff it's already discredited the wall street collapse what what how do we explain the failure to address global warming all of these issues are we confronted by human beings working together well i wonder in intellectual they confront it but the thing that we can get all specialized out into various things so we don't we don't where are the voices where the historical understanding  the major transformation there i don't find them you know we're all caught up with the rumor of the day or that kind of thing or specialisation are used to say they get everybody specialized out because they will become a threat to the people who think globally and run the world right and they're not worried about the dollars coming up but they get smart ones doing something that's so specialized now they can't think about the whole and become a threat where are the voice intellectual community is falling down on the job without coming up with the systems understanding what the hell is going on and what is needed there were almost an economic policy some way in which we can deal with the future rather than just being in thrall to the past and that kind of thing but at the intellectual community because you wouldn't expect the political leadership to do that would you or the business leadership well certainly not imo called leadership but the intellectuals are falling down on that one of the problems is is that we tend to annoying to gatekeepers yeah so there's a handful of these people these so called historians and so on experts they say who constantly are on television all the big shows and they sort of nd all the bandwidth and they provide these very conventional explanations of things and in wars when i call these people's yes the stories that i say a thing it's understandable they would do that you wouldn't condemn a crocodile for eating an antelope and assume the doing what they're trained to do but what i'm saying is you have a sense of the same sense of this being an incredibly transformative time i got a friend colin clark shear it opens up the possibility for really comprehensively thinking from the intellectual community your book is part of that it was i would suggest very timely how did you get it times that it came out just as he left office did it come out in the same day  get what it wants and i can tell you that they are going to be people in there i interviewed people for the watergate republican party officials who told me that the the that the intelligence community has always worked to get their own people unbeknownst to the president into the white house positions for so they can keep an eye on him and and this is not only some of this is sinister but it's also for security reasons and because they worry what if the president goes on a drinking binge he accidentally pushes the button or something so yeah security concern there's also the danger that these people are serving interested that are different from ours and this is a good what is what is going to happen if he if he shakes things up too much really you know if he were to talk for example about the fact that they're the rich in this country really don't pay their fair share compared to any other advanced country in the world and then we you know we see the consequences of the new york times today saying that even with the with the with the where if you had some if you're presenting an alternative let's suppose you're really thinking about an alternative just a little changing of the deck chairs on the titanic or something or some criticism of what's there because virtually everything is under fire now every institution everybody foreclosures all kinds of things but if you're going to present an alternative then you would have to be an alternative that would be not only an uncertain let's just say liberating if that's a term again the existential side of that the struct scenario of the liberation of d let's say the people have been not able to be realizing their potential on a large scale that human beings have that it within touch with the ecology liberating of things that the technology could make available that we now have capability for but we don't have systems that allow do it but the real challenge would be to come with something that would do that liberate us into a new way or have a vision of a liberation but it would be one that would be able to appropriately sub the outdated historical institutions so that you would get to the point where we something that everybody could understand and resonate too in a way where there would be no losers everybody would be able to understand it and that seems to me like the work of the intellectual yabsley intellectual vision is not there it's not there repairing to kane's the repaired all the old thinking that got summers and all that kind of stuff the economic theory isn't in terms with what is needed that kind of they don't have a these people very clearly and by the way the family secrets i have a number of chapters with new information about the iraq war why they went into iraq and so on and i interview a fellow who is writing a book with george w bush in  you mention the evangelicals i have a chapter in families where i interview the bush family adviser and evangelicals and turns out that i mean one of them george w bush would never have been president if he had not captured this large event all doors yeah you know where there were people who were yeah ok you know and he was himself an evangelical and he was telling him you have to embrace this you have to talk about you have to basically appear to be much more religious than you are and he told them this and he would write memos to them and at the time one of the people don't realize this one of george h w bush's top advisers one of the people he listen to the most was none other than his son george w bush didn't hear do well he was a very savvy political strategist and he understood things often that his father didn't understand ok that's interesting that's very interesting i had real i'm really looking forward to again i mean what i try another is only bad in houma things i didn't know why i put in things i already other people you know other things people know it's better to get the things you don't it's the information and gregory bases say the information that makes the difference is is the real information that makes the difference and everything like that congratulations on your long and distinguished career as a writer and i'm going to say once again everyone ought to get tuned into russ baker he writes like an angel and i'm just saying that having been kept up late at night reading your many articles you've written but you written a major book now we live in a media world now could is that stuff have you got any movie deals have you thought of movie deals through this have you gotten in touch with multimedia possibilities for the ideas that are being presented in the book or not we've been approached by some  connections who see a possibility of a feature film here we also this may interest your viewers and we want to do some sort of viral videos for for you tube about the book and about the issues in the book and we may even have a contest or something if people have ideas or they'd like to create their own videos i just found out i put things up i got five hundred years of be up by this week and this one interview will be up to you to buy this weekend and i got one i did with a fellow i did here taped in the studio and i now gotten over two million people viewing it all over the world it's staggering it goes by the thousands they do your troops very important a very important source of doing but i was thinking more about the media or me waiting this kind of thing and of course i mean we're talking about other things we may do a graphic novel which is a sort of an adult comic book telling the story visually i know one of the topographic novels and he's interested and doing better because that's a very major that i mean there's a lot of ways to communicate and we do all of this then you are you doing much media and are you doing your thinking you too now you're thinking more time media i'm also doing old media and i don't mean and i'm doing internet i mean we've been on a lot of the websites from huffington post to alter net to what have you credibility yeah he said i thought i had overreached a little bit wild but they have to say that yeah we've had we've had a number of good reviews just had one in the san diego newspaper and we also have had the washington post called me back and had me do a podcast wonderful they had me on line chat i was the only non post staffer that did an online chat with their readers ok along with woodward and some of the other ok good very good well listen you've written a major book you've had a great career and graduates you're all the very possible to recommend a particular person's writing and contributions thank you very much for coming in ross perot all your work and for this book i think it's going to become it's only out a couple weeks or something now i think i i predict great things for this book and the person who put together thank you very much my pleasure your pleasure will be coming back again tomorrow please tune it when we come back again tomorrow once again russ thank you very very much for coming  maybe and september yeah i mean october i mean it was really rush and they were sort of frantic about whether they're going to get it get it printed in time riot but fortunately i mean one of the things that happened was i think that when the economy tanking you know mentors have more available you know is a place for multimedia for some ideas to get that's where the ideas are going to come from more than the networks that well it's all fragmented as you know you all should get behind supporting the political support for public access and in our society is very important leading edge before the internet and they were out on the front and i agree you know i've always had an interesting things in public access ok well that's really