wears many many hats and we've just met here in early september at the world forum that was being held here in new york city and we've had an incredible conversation or a share some of insights and mr kapoor welcome very much to conversations ind it had been taken very note of we did quite extensively in india and as you say you've been to the united states fifty times and you're a friend of the earth and you're in a very real sense and you've got a very large cosmos cosmic or cosmopolitan view of the world you're a comprehensive seems to me and provide not having been to one the world forum there was called and they had a couple of one thousand intellectuals and governmental in the private sector people gathered in a hilton hotel in conjunction with the un summoned world leaders one hundred and eighty eight our states and we were talking and among other things that really intrigued me and our st conversations we met with was that you were a long term close personal friend of that friend of the universe that's the more important thing buckminster fuller did you have an accord with him he would it seems to me and if you can set me straight if i'm awful because i would really like to get him fixed but he has to posit if i'm not mistaken and he's come a hold largely western tradition he but he was positing an opera or a mysterious design new that to the structure of universal mind he used to using that term there was an intelligent design in universe and he said it was made up of a series of hi not just him or not or something chance in the sense that he thought he believed in the notion of of and into intelligent design and to night and so there's an intelligence and design in universe do you mean that's an important what would you if you could if you were to characterize us it take this question on frontally the west and the east and so what the west has been very concerned in a certain sense was seeing consciousness in a certain sense growing out of matter through an evolutionary process outward going in the world and the eastern f i'm wrong send me straight or news my to the met at the the hindu tradition of the eastern tradition is it begins with consciousness and other matters come from that only then is it is this is this a difference of understanding the cosmic order that is important for us to understand are there coming to be a blending of these in a way or do you think this is an important  know the west shelf shake the east the way of me while you have the night for the more modern but there will be a blending but but tardy it was interested in technology and he saw technique and technology an extended consciousness which in a certain people that own the word on the word starvation it's an incredible thing i saw in your paper and i read it i appreciate very much i read the paper and you india the figures there were a couple there were figures that we have now four hundred individuals newest fear would emerge and he said it was in a certain sense like the growing of an electronic into intelligence of integrated intelligence and some people see the internet and these developments which are growing so for happening now as being in a certain within a system you can be very confused by information overload but information overload permits pattern recognition between systems at another love that so then cool them above it so that there's a and we are uniquely suited at pattern recognizing the human consciousness and so that the information overload would seem superfluous because you're in the system if you get a higher level you can see that this relates to that and this and that so it allows for a system that has that ending at a higher universe is defined that and to bring design intelligent design in keeping with the evolution of consciousness itself and word of time perhaps a transition i wonder if i can follow the prime follow through on the but the notion of pattern recognition again or buckminster fuller talking about systems analysis where you have the involvement of all of the parts of the whole of a system all operating maximally in a certain sense and if i could digress for one minute we heard coffee on and on and the secretary general were talking about internet and so forth and but he said there's fully one half of the world's population talk about a digital divide three billion souls and have never in all of their life made a single phone call that they're not plugged in or not tied in so that if you have a realization of a new level of consciousness collectively of the whole not just some few not a few but the whole then the  is that they're in lighting but they would come back and make sure that all of the human society let's say as part of it would be involved in a process of a liberated process and then that would be resonating relationship universe of another level but you before you know i do not i i am a technologist might that you are i have spent all of my life when science and technology yes but i think when i look at all of the the fed to lie when it be sitting in different can have to be protected by weapons of mass destruction by and everybody all over the world start spending one th of the word value on producing weapons we've been lead if i may if the last five hundred years has been a time of european expansion particularly there was a time when they were in the caves of islam was an hour and so when but the last five hundred years since columbus or so there's been colonization all over parts of nationalism that got it ugly this ugly century that we live in now i wonder we've had had things in the united we have the united nations as a merge and we had eleanor roosevelt who fought very hard to get something that is called a universal declaration of human rights there was a hard one she had to get thing do you think there's a point in mankind collectively trying to find maybe i'm arguing differently than perhaps you were making the point but there are there are certain universal rights that are you unique to humanity universally and there will be some cultures for instance there are some cultures who would say women should be beaten and controlled because they are an inferior part of the human society and this is a culture and they said this is our culture we should not allow women to participate because they are a lesser part of the human experience and they think this culturally and the universal declaration of human rights will say no this is not correct there are larger orders of  would put in maybe the most important person of our century he was a comprehensive us to read and he used to argue in terms of this question how are we going to get things or he said do not try and i just wonder if you could address that he said don't try to change people's way of thinking and don't try to change human nature human and kind of change the conditions in which they will interrelate which will allow the best of them to come out of which would you be of a moral nature that we must change people's inner thinking away from greed and or that we should in a certain sense design an environment that allows the best to come out oh i did it in a new kind of way and one last thing of a good he had this postulation saying from a western perspective that we had this include technology dickel advancement and that we were at an ontological level collectively the whole system we were transcending in the abstract technologically augment it sends and the notion of scarcity in a material sense on a world system in fact he felt that we had crossed that fifty percent mark around one thousand nine hundred and seventy years something and that we were into a new relationship that would make possible to us organizational assumptions that historically have not been possible they were all developed within a context of basic scarcity and struggle over in a basis of care do you think there's anything to be said that we may be transcending scarcity with our the as an ontological reality in terms amazing we now understand the mechanism by which d n a what we have apparently i understand i'm not a biology we have ten trillion cells in the human body they're changing all the time and every one of the some of them are  of them are delivered some are brain there's all kinds of stuff and they're all connected as a system and every cell has to be operating maximally you have a healthy organism and every cell the way the d n a sets up is in communication with that the need for the greed might lessen as people realize that they don't have to have you know going after limousines and so they might well settle into that by choice the what if they were all white will we be fuller who you were friendly with i was in admiration and he used to postulate again that nd law of thermodynamics he said he looked about and he said all systems move to a closed system move toward chaos in the limits of the system is a lot of chaos and universe and he said the biological process on earth was an anti intro pick function and there was an important function there would be if there was a purpose to biological and human evolutionary nervous this is move across to enter b m bring increased patterns of conscious understanding to the process in the cosmic process which where apartment and that we may be reaching a point now where we have this destructive capability to technology where we could render the past habitat of this earth the continuation of our species and or we may be at a point where we could be inclusive of everyone and creating a sort of in a certain sense a synergistic residency of a liberated humanity that would endure accommodative resonat universe at a level transcendent of what we've been through out the human experience and we may be coming to a new relationship to the cosmic conscious is at a level higher than what we've had throughout the human experience yet you think this is a possibility of the time or would you and i sit and talk  public well many of the paradigms that we are operating in terms of were based upon a traditional pattern of scarcity in an ontological reality there's a new and emerging so we need a new economic capital formation and the ability for us to do who is a friend of the universe based in india but travelling about and giving traveling about the planet was a friend of many of the most important thinkers of our of our era and happy to enable to share his perceptions with you we invite you to tune in we'll be coming back again next week and conversation now and that sort of thing and but there's so many would just scratch the surface of the things but i think this forum is a good idea and one of the shouldn't i mean this world form that the putting together shouldn't be more of them do you have such