selby street events tickets are fifteen dollars available by credit card at fascinating rhythm a two five zero seven one six triple nine seven and at our beautiful music at two five zero nine three three one zero zero join us for a wonderful and intimate evening of exquisite art music in the heart o good morning welcome to changes the program on sustainability i'm susan gregory and this morning i am extremely fortunate to have guy don c on the phone and i'll just give a bit of an introduction hair guide on c is known i'm sure to many of our listeners for his past work as the founder of the b b c sustainable energy association the editor of eco news and the author of several books including the climate challenge one hundred one solutions to global warming his website tripled over your dog earth future dot com includes some of his ted talks and television interviews and now at present he has a new book in the works journey to the future of a better world is possible and he's involved in developing a sustainable community in cedar which i'm really interested in finding out more about good morning guy  perception you are more than welcome to disagree and let's give a different version of this but it seemed like our society had a vision of the future in which we'd be surrounded by technology that would do all the work and solve all of the problems and incidentally we wouldn't need nature any more and somehow it seems to me that for various reasons that notion may have morphed into a more like a vision of a post apocalyptic disaster do you think we've lost hope in the future because we sense that that vision that we had was faulty but it's a very profound question  for centuries humans never had hope in the future they always thought the future will be the same as the present and life will carry on in a great circle of change in the seasons were changing the some would happen and that's the way life was we really began to get a very excited vision of the future cheering the enlightenment in the seventeen hundreds which led to the french revolution and then the birth of socialism a people really began to experience the present  so painful especially for most people who were being exploited on the mound or in the in the cities and suffering a lot of poverty and hunger and at the same time technology was really developing world travel was developing a science developing telescopes you know all sorts of new developments and so people were very excited about the future when things like hot air balloons first arose and people could rise into the sky so there was a massively positive vision of the future combining rationality giving up sort of superstitions getting rid of futile or restock receives and using technology and science to create an incredible future and it wasn't at the expense of nature i mean communism and all sorts of so there was never any restoration of hope join the twentieth century except on the covers of magazines who really had a super technological future with you know flying cars but no one i ever knew in my life think about the future what do you feel do you feel hope or worry and out of six hundred people five hands went up to say they felt hopeful however when i'd then done  full slide presentation about all the exciting changes that are happening both technology changes and understanding of the climate crisis and the way we change our behavior and the way we become leaders i was a same question and three hundred hands went up saying they were hopeful and  getting that every time i do this with teenagers a great shift from hopelessness to excitement because they they see the pictures of the solar revolution the window under any illusion the changes in transportation the changes in farming the way humans can be leaders for the world so i think it's more an artifact of too much standard apocalyptic media information about bad stuff and the media not covering the really exciting news about the changes that are happening that's doing it so part of my core work is to shift the whole world's vision of the future from negative to positive oh that's great now leads me to wonder if you think i mean we've got leaders debates going  do think they have a vision i think they get nervous about articulating one the specific aspects of it to do with our energy policy expect think the most canadians are not ready to embrace the end of fossil fuels that they think that most cages think we still think that the opposite is true the fact that none of the politicians are really able to come out with a very clear defining vision of what that future looks like and also the fact that you've got at least three or four dimensions you've got to have a do you go to find a positive vision that addresses all the environmental stuff so that every activity every economic action restores nature instead of destroying it you have to have a vision of the future the dresses the power the pre talk recy and the fact that you know the minority of canadians are getting super wealthy in the majority are going backwards you've got to have a vision that addresses the social problems whether it's homelessness old loneliness or mental illness most politicians have a chance to wrap their minds around yes but i think as we go through the show today we will be talking about some of the things that are already in place some of the ideas that are already in place and i think your upcoming book is going to point us in the right direction in that respect you know i think i maybe i'll just jump actually to  something that i wanted to mention i was thinking of doing it later but marjorie kelley of the telus institute which i think is located in boston or that general area has a book called owning our future the emerging ownership revolution which is available through the vancouver island region a library and there are other books to david korten who's well known as the author of when corporations rule the world has a new book called change the story change the future a living economy for a living earth so it seems to me that when people talk of boat you know stopping doing things like extracting oil bitumen and other fossil fuels there is an assumption perhaps that they don't have an alternative they haven't thought about an alternative and when we talk about the plutocracy that there isn't an alternative and books like that actually give us a blueprint for those alternatives and i'm guessing that yours will as well and november is i spent three years going to vancouver in the year twenty thirty two by when it has become one of the world's greatest cities and taken a four day visit with a character to the future who meets people and walks around and asks all sorts of questions and there's a lot of environmental and for sisters a lot of emphasis on the economy and but i put three years a really hard work into this i mean to puzzle things out especially i mean most of my previous background as being on the environmental side of things in the ninety's i worked on community based economies but to really understand what's happened in the two thousand and eight crash why the occupy movement failed why we're still not getting change in the banking system that that is not easy and it does very few journalists who understand it and it wasn't until two thousand and eleven that decent analyses came out of the even of the two thousand and eight crash and not a single like a financial journalist saw it coming in advance so it's not easy and i had as one of the pieces of this which is is if you like partnership revolution understand how banking worked how money is created in the power of public banking that the public sector can actually run a bank and produce credit for full for loan out to companies and where the interest returns the interest is actually public property and can be used to finance education and healthcare and the complicated history that sort of stuff and i also had to realize that the transition from capitalism to what i actually call a future corporate economy or a green entrepreneurial cooperative economy it's nothing that gets achieved in the way the french revolution did things with you know sort of marches on the streets and lots of protests all the anonymous movement is just not the way you get change capitalism was built over three hundred years block by block by block system you know someone invented insurance someone invented a limited stock company someone invented different kinds of banking someone invented private property rules and then the rule of law and the new corporate economy has to be built in the same way so it took a while to establish you know the legislation for credit unions to establish  credit unions to to put all these pieces in place and there's a you know this twenty or thirty of these different building blocks and they have to be built by people slowly step by step whether it's community currencies or whether it's public banking or whether it's even  basic income and it takes work it takes a lot of understanding all these things and it's it's a sort of thirty year transition you know as a minimum so it is complicated and most of us in the most people in the environmental movement are very poorly informed about finance and economics and most people who are involved in finance and economics and business are very poorly informed about the environment and then both sides are very poorly informed about how  stems from the fact that general economies are growing at three percent whereas invested capital growth five percent so if you happen to home capital whether in a bank accounts or property whatever you're going to get rich faster than other people and so the gap between the rich and poor would increase that's you know many many years of deep economic research to get that so there's no avoiding hard work and sorting out the model we're in marjorie kelly talks incidentally in her book about  the fact that the public so called publicly traded corporation that is one that's traded on the stock market is part of the problem as well because the shareholders don't have really any say in the running of the company and at the same time they're just expecting a return on their investment so they don't they're not really in it to provide a service to the tustin more of the tump and the let's say or a product to the test for the company they're just in it for the money and that's part of that's where the ownership issue comes in which is where cole hops i mean and then you know there are other forms of entrepreneurial interest in this coming people of millions all of those people who said yes i'll take i'll invest with you to get thirty percent are being greedy purely for the sake of being greedy without asking where the money comes from and they're very ordinary people who are nothing to do with corporations so the greed we take it back to human behavior ordinary greed will always get his comeuppance and do damage to other people the problem with the corporation is not actually the ownership it's the d n a in the legal mandates that a corporation has and this is where the move to a benefit to a benefit corporations is so important that when a corporation becomes a benefit corporation it takes on a legal obligation to produce a public benefit of environmental social community in nature as well as producing a profit and it's directors cannot be fired for purely maximizing for seeking to purely mechs not for not only seeking profit because it's the have fifty by christmas but when if you ever seen an article in any major media outlets about the benefit corporations or people don't know about them this is the dilemma this yeah yeah another thing that i would like to ask you about is growth of the leaders debate every well growth growth growth there's no the it's such an automatic assumption that that's what we need people talking for decades about a steady state economy and again it seems to me that a cooperative or perhaps a benefit corporation while making up profit they can plow that profit back into the business then they can do things with it other than just sending it off to people as growth kind of profit right there is seems to me there's a difference i'm not quite wrapping my brain around it but i bet you can do that yeah it's highly complex you have to separate things out i mean the mondragon network of corporate serves in northern spain has been extraordinarily successful as the world's greatest network of corporate heads and they think strong they've had extremely good economic growth and that has been a benefit because they've gone from being one of corporative to being one hundred preserves and from employing ten people employed tend to have two hundred thousand people so that's growth within a particular sector where they've expanded their particular work and similar tenuously we want organic farms to have growth so that you know we want ideally organic farming to be growing at five percent a year so that we gradually transform the whole farming sector until all farmers organic so there's nothing inherently in corporative or benefit corporations that is for or against growth the issue arises as a higher level i mean g d p is the the measure of the entire economy's growth and that is the one that the economists it globally it stands for gross depletion of the planet because every time we do grow the economy at least on the material level we're extracting something cutting something or mining something and unless a business is registered as  certified green corporation or green business really with all of its actions turned around so they restore nature instead of consuming nature every increase in g d p is a decrease for the planet's ecological wealth so the turnaround in growth if you could continue to have growth if you do two kinds of turnaround so that every time we interact with nature we are restoring nature instead of mining it and undermining it and if more of the growth is in the soft realm of intellectual and spiritual development as opposed to material development so you know when you've got your how many fridges to do it's a family need in the house you end up spending more money on holidays and then you end up saying well do i really need to travel the world for holidays and you start going to you know writing retreats and perpetrator feets know where you live and the economy is still growing you're still spending money being active but you're not consuming the planet and the and the what worries me about a steady state economy is it doesn't address the human entrepreneurial instincts the the drive the zest that people get have to get out there and do amazing things in life and and achieve great things and and explore and be expansive that's that's part of our human nature and life would be really really dull without it so we need to have an economy that can allow for that risk taking innovator edge and we need innovation really rapidly so these things need to achievable but we have to get away from our fixation with just money that's the core of the problems you just excited on money and you want your money to grow by three percent a year you just follow the logic of compound interest democracy is that what our goal is is that why we have democracy is that what we want you know first and foremost as human beings if you go to any country in the where human rights are abused where landlords can treat the land workers appallingly where power is corrupted you absolutely want democracy it's absolutely and you know one of the core reasons i think why there's so much backwardness in the middle east is that women also oppressed and cannot speak freely and cannot be entrepreneurial and there's no free speech no free discussion so so you absolutely need to mockers and he's absolutely right that it is a precondition of economic progress and when you see how poverty stricken some people are in some of those countries compare it to you know the comfort we we live you know you go to be extremely blind to reality to say no no they shouldn't have economic growth are devils but actually what was happening was that the somali people used to have a very healthy fishery off their coast and they go out and they collect fish and an extended family can be thirty people in that part of the world and they could collect fish and enough to feed the whole family then the european corporate fishing fleet moved in and basically sucked up all the fish because it's nonexistent somali government had actually allowed the corporate you know that being bought off by from a small payments by the european fishing fleets or to buy but sort of leads to a question about what can we do about the media but that's that tricky one the media is kind of imploding frankly because the social media realm is exploding so rapidly that the news i get on my facebook stream is getting up there i mean i do have two thousand five hundred friends who are quality people dealing with climate change and energy and world affairs so it's a very quality facebook stream that i get but i'm getting news from all sorts of sources that i didn't even know about because of the ability of social media to feed me that sort of stuff so i mean while regular newspapers are struggling to keep alive and recording is going to stop and listen to it so mainly radio stations like this are people driving in their cars or background radio at home or doing something it doesn't meet the media revolution that's happening which is of vast supply of information coming in quick snippets rapidly maybe when we pod cast this show we'll have to put it into a quick you know it and yet the con of that is that actually even though the most people are more and more learning in these quick snippets there's absolutely nothing that replaces of gravity they put years of work in the puzzle puzzle puzzle then bingo they have this massive insights that changes everything for all the rest of us and so i really urge people to read really good books up to get a proper understanding about the world and not depend on facebook and there are cops that do bad the co op can do bad things just says be clear on that so she's very prejudiced against the world of business and doesn't really have the insights into how we transform the world of business so she's basically saying capitalism the problem but she doesn't seem to know how we need to transform capitalism and grow the post capitalist green entrepreneurial corporate economy that i believe we need to grow where that's really where she's really good is in analyzing particularly the conflict between the world trade organization  the world trade treaties and the climate treaties whereas if you breach a world trade organization treaty you know there's massive fines and penalties and if you breach a climate treaty people shrug and nothing happens and so that shows the balance of power in the world between the power of the invested economy and their power the people trying to protect the you know the whole climate and that really has to change but i think it this year is a bit of a turnaround for that things are changing yes so i was just going to ask if well about the pope's and cyclical out that was the on the care of our common home because if you would able to be influential to over a billion catholics and i think a many other people find that what he has said to be quite wonderful apparently it's not necessarily reaching into the local parish churches the way it might but certainly anyone who pays attention to these issues is it was just thrilled that he has written this and of course he has a link to the social justice issues to the poverty off to the spanish civil war and then the you know and he said what is the jest you it's all the christian solution to poverty and he went back to the work of the early founders of the property movements and rushed out into britain in the  hundred fifty s who founded the corporate impulse going back to the ownership issue and so he founded the corporative network based on that jesuit impulse for shared ownership and the current pope has a jesuit background so he's perspective obviously to the whole thing you know just pause here for a couple of minutes to remind our listeners that you're listening to c h l what i want to one point seven f m or c h o y dot c your listeners supported campus and community station and a couple of things that i'd like to highlight today in the way of events first of all this just came into my email this morning  stoughton and i do apologize for my pronunciation i have taken a united stand against the construction of fossil fuel pipelines through their territory stoughton count as a nonviolent occupation of territory which makes a lot of sense it's an expression of the continuing and unbroken chain of occupation and use of their territory by their clan it's unseated untreated territory and through continuous use an occupation their traditional structures of gutter governance retain complete jurisdiction and final authority over those lands waters and use their they will be reporting from the front lines at dunkin united church two forty six ingram on august eighth eighteenth at seven pm that's a week from this evening and you can check active islands dot com for more information on that this is sponsored by green community who are a wonderful organization and duncan also energy solutions for vancouver island annual general meeting as coming up they currently have over a dozen people meeting regularly with the goal of increasing the amount of locally produce clean energy such as solar panels installed on public buildings as well as home energy systems and of course we all know that the cost of solar panels is decreasing by the day and maybe guy we can talk about that shortly the featured speaker at this event will be steven toward off of a company called energy canvas who designs builds on operates renewable energy systems both in london england and in vancouver he holds degrees in renewable energy engineering solar thermal fuel cell hybrid systems and entrepreneurship as well as civil and structural technology from d c i t his renewable energy experience over the past fifteen years has been an utility scale wind and solar projects as well as project development of hybrid renewables and energy storage his talk and the and they say that you don't need to worry about being cornered to join the board because they already have enough willing volunteers unless of course you want to join the board for more information on e s p i or to become a member see triple w dot e s v dots and of course that's for energy solutions for vancouver island and i'll quickly mention as well that if you missed the if federal leaders debate last week you could still see it at triple w dot ca where you can watch it a bit at a time if you prefer which you were just talking about brief little segments and you can do that because it's just there and you can pick it up where you left  off the program that you are listening to on c h l why is changes i'm susan gregory and today i'm talking with guy don c author of an upcoming book journey to the future a better world is possible and he's  people working to develop a sustainable community in cedar called kirkstone green maybe we could move on to that i was going to mention that marjorie stewart oh one of our other changes hosts has quoted an architect b r kid ingles as saying sustainability can't be like some sort of a moral sacrifice or political dilemma or philanthropic will cause it has to be a designing challenge buckminster fuller's said the same thing it's just occurring to me actually today that sometimes people think of that in excess of lee grandiose terms like somebody is going to design society or something which sounds quite top down and dictatorial but it doesn't have to be does it and i'm just wondering what well you've already described guys some things that are in the process of being redesigned but i'm just wondering what your thoughts would be on that and then perhaps you could tell us what you were designing at kirkstone green event everything is design to mean even the leaves on the tree of design doughty for the designed design is simply the expression in material form of a vision that you know so when you drive down the street someone designed out streets and if you miss the streets down in the south bay in victoria where where the narrow roads were in the open not the options in the southern area where the road is met a tree and traffic whereas a road especially in a residential area the more windy and more obstacle it is the slower the traffic and the safer to support people the more connections people make with each other the more they'll talk with each other the more the children will play on the streets  until the early nineteenth hundreds and there was no such time as jaywalking because all humans walked on all streets and then when cars started arriving and they was pressured by the automobile industry put on sort of separate the possessions from the cut the traffic and the traffic took over the main and sidewalks when i grew up were literally you know three feet wide and now increasingly they're getting wider and wider in the cities we're beginning to reclaim you know does the road need five lanes when the inside the family so design is absolutely not the solution to everything but it's an important part of it and what i'm hoping to do in this this small eight  is once we're able to buy the land the land has been already approved in the official community plan to become a model sustainable community and so that was a condition when it was taken out of a law because actually it's already iraq and it's been messed up and stuff like that just doesn't lend itself to suitable for farming but it's required to be a model sustainable community in the bible not the bible but the description of the o c p actually calls for rainwater harvesting you know local energy local food growing more community between people so that jack anderson from green plant who's based in cedar has done all of the work and laid out the plans in a very successful way to create a sort of a community for between thirty three and forty households which where the design will lend itself to far less use of water less use of energy and more growing of food more social contacts more space for children play more restoration of nature which of things we want and so the challenge we face first of all is to be able to buy the land and existing the owner who wants to sell the land but we have to raise the money needed to buy the land and then take it through rezoning and then make it happen  yes that's a curious thing if it's already in the o c p that it needs to be a sustainable yes community why would it have to be reused and because the o c p is a guidance documents and the get no rain until october to speak of yes right so how are you going to a change that i guess is slow that this is achieving it is a matter of finding the foot the investors will put in the get the things lined up properly move it through to the relevant to the rezoning the development stage get the financing make it all happen it's a it's stuff that developers do all the time i'm wanting to do this as a benefit corporation so we spoke earlier about the ro of benefit corporation when you have a business but the business is legally required to produce a public benefit and not just make money for itself and that's a huge change with specially when it comes to land development where there's been you know sometimes  developers just want to sort of turn up the land make the money and walk away and there's more to life than that and we need to express the fact there's more to life than that in the way we do business ownership as well as the way we do our planning building subdivisions moving at speed a and the pace of co housing an ecovillage is moving at speed b the regular subdivisions are moving ten times faster than the car housing another model so every year we have less sustainable housing on the land in the year before so unless we can speed up the process of building communities in a really sustainable manner we're going to get back with every year and so we're basically saying if you build it they will come i mean most of us don't get to choose you know the design of a house before we build it all the design of the street before we build it so i think we need to trust the planners to do a really good job here based on years and years and years of experience what works and let us build it so that we can move ahead quicker and then you know then we can create a model that other developers can look at and say hey that works for us as well if you do when you do something that takes five years to put through the planning process once you've built it you're paying interest on that money for all that time so you're driving up the cost yeah and you don't want to drive up the cost because then you lose in the social dimension of sustainability well yes because then a less exactly for the people behind me yeah affordability is one of the dimensions of cost is the cost of capital so you know you do it doug when people anyone has got savings they want to return on their savings because that's the way we work at the the family types and of affordability ranges and we're doing that partly by having some larger units some small units you know some and so to mix it up as much as possible yes yes actually i'm going to step back a wee bit because when i ask you how you're going to is this i actually was thinking in terms of the water conservation and the rights of rainwater i'm interested in knowing how that's going to be designed it simply by the size of the tank how high i mean it's really very simple we get more than enough rainfall over the year to meet our needs but on our house here we have where i live in the other point we have a five thousand gallon storage and coming off half of our roof at the back and it was full by november so all the rainfall from november to april just got lost so you know you just have to build a tank large enough to store it and then you treat the water you need treatment and you filter it and make it safe to drink and you have a separate as backup in case there's a ten month route instead of a six month drought but also there be internal metering and monitoring so people know exactly how much water is in their tanks they know the speed at which they're using it and they're you know when they have teenagers having a half hour show that she they'll be able to show that teenagers look at how much water you use if you carry on that rate will run out and have to buy a lot of spend a lot of money to buy extra water so the feedback mechanisms around water supply which we lack at the moment  excellent yes and the design aspect some of the design aesthetic aspects to come out of that absolutely yes ok so this could become as you say a model for future development totally we want to actually you know show that mean compare subdivision and subdivision be the best model is a community called village homes in davis california where they built on this model back in the ninety's seventy's to be hugely successful the crime rates one tenth of what it is in local communities nearby because everyone knows each other they have seventy acres of their own food growing and when a house comes on the market it's not the major tax people like living that so much and so indirectly that will actually drive up the price of the value of houses because people will want to live there and so there be a quite a higher demand for those houses now indirectly that's been a misfortune in terms of the property values around it which is it's so expensive for young people to buy a home but it will show the success of the model and then we have to counteract that by making sure we build in provisions for affordable housing and small units yeah you know there are land trust the states i think where you can sell the house but yeah a land or something and so it keeps the price of the but you own your unit that's good if you never dream of owning your own land but anyone who wants to ever own their own land in their own home will lose the capital value by that model and be stuck in renting for the rest of the life because like to live out where we're going to run out of time so a lot so i'd like to shift gears here to the well in larger picture because what we've touched on this but haven't really given too many examples and that is clean energy projects that are really happening around the world i think in canada we just don't find out again because of our media and our politicians may not think the way you are aware of these things so they don't talk about it but there are things happening in the rest of the world that are quite remarkable i think in the way of evolution is happening and so all young people listening to this show will live in a solar houses and will drive electric cars and will ride on electric buses and electric bikes because it's an unstoppable revolution driven by the technology and the falling price and in the global picture if you think that the age of fossil fuels lasted for three hundred years the solar age will last for more than a billion years now that we have falling price happening not just for five years or ten years but happening for a hundred years happening for a thousand years happening for a billion years and you understand the incredible excitement around the threshold that we're in barking on right now energy which never runs out and which the price keeps on falling i mean the solar abundance on the planet is just phenomenal and i understand they just today on the b b c website there's an article emerging from linda mccuaig comments that the bitumen should remain on the ground which caused a stir in the election campaign  but that article animals by saying that in saudi arabia they're realizing that the fossil fuel age is winding down and they are looking at solar when it's probably spent in part in reality the truth is they generate solar in the middle east and most of the but human does need to remain in the ground clearly not all of it we cannot do a transition to zero fossil fuels overnight i developed a whole plan that it needs to happen every twenty five year period so by twenty forty we could be getting close to zero carbon and that surely that would generate twice as many jobs as we'd lose process during the transition that's a report from the b c sustainable energy association that will be published sometime soon and it really spells out the jo can in the time i did take one idea from an interview that's on your web site that we need to look at what we can do to accelerate the transitions of talking fast is good not what we're leaving behind and that's exactly what you just referred to not the jobs that will be losing but the jobs that will be gaining yes total are one thing you know yeah yeah we need to train for them i mean young people are not going into careers offices saying i want to some of them are saying i want to work and alberta because they can earn a hundred twenty thousand dollars a year but once they get there they're writing home to say i'm miserable this life stinks how quickly can i get out i'm saving all my money so that i can get out of here and get back to a proper life with a family with the community with with it with real life instead of you know sitting in the money pits just you know money for the sake of it and there so it's a deeper spiritual level all humans want both comfort and stability and love and the ability to build a better world yes and that's the that is the the larger force that i believe science will soon get a handle on it's it is a an energy in the mainstream realm can't get a handle on because it's so slippery you can't measure it i mean that you can't measure it you can apply math to it you can get laws you can't make progress but it exists and that's and it's undeniable that you and i have consciousness that animals have consciousness and my logical train of thought takes goes a long way further than that to the fact that it would appear to me that the native traditions that all nature is conscious are correct and that yes trees have consciousness that ocean sound consciousness and atoms have consciousness eyes to make a better world as part of a deeply deeply fundamental nature of the universe and so this is a reason for extreme optimism and positive energy around the future that we have this ability to organize together whether it's to get votes for women from you know to stop children working down coal mines to end war to get harmony with nature to develop public benefit corporations to build sustainable communities you know and people love doing this kind of thing we have a vision when two year olds go through the temper tantrums that basically saying i will always be anathema will never be a molecule that i will not cooperate with my family i will not do what my parents are asking me to do and when they finally discover the harmony that comes from being a family together and cooperating they say it's a higher level of existence so as a planet we're just moving on to the stage when nations are saying i will dominate the world i will grab all i can i will have the strongest army i will build to bully you and push you around and take  the need to cooperate as a planet together to collectively protect the soil to protect our farming to sort of cool down the climate to protect the oceans to cooperate to stop the sex trade and stuff like that all that achievable when we understand the power of working together including overthrowing you know or stopping the pataki from running away with all the power and changing our democracies so they're no longer corrupted by money the way they are horrendously so in america is a little bit so in canada but not nearly so much in canada our complaints on that score a tiny compared to the problems we have in america and so it's a that everyone needs to get engaged as a changemaker to help make this transition happen and that's the exciting piece that's what motivates me so strongly that's something that we can all engage with i think get on board with everyone to do it and also have a career doing it and earn money doing it and so that you know your whole life as mine has been this whole life has been devoted to making a difference on the planet while developing our skills doing work that we love getting really dug into phony problems and having the joy of touching them and struggling and losing and fighting succeeding and all that sort of stuff the same as every sports team does and it makes for a great life wow on that note we're just about out of time so i want to ask you in addition to triple w dot earth future dot com where would you suggest that people go for more information and inspiration yet on my i have a blog website as well called the practical utopian it's a wordpress blog so if you just google practical utopian which is how i think of myself plus my name guy i don't see you'll find all that you some of the thoughts in the new book that would be fabulous ok let's do it ok ok thanks and that's our show tonight and again next week for librarians on the radio and on behalf of our production team thanks so much for joining us climate change important don't you think our friends at c jail why i couldn't cooperate in nelson have produced a four part series pulling in all sorts of good information on where we are at and where we are going to break from a sense of justice is taking a couple of well deserved weeks off so we thought this would be a good fit as a fill in for that time slot so listen from seven to eight pm wednesdays july twenty ninth of august nineteenth for climate change smell the you listening to c h o y f m one a one point seven nine months on your radio dial