welcome my name is natasha sherman and i am your host and my guest today is dada's citgo she is a counsellor and advocate at the woman space and i want to tell you a little bit about woman space while in space is a leading not for profit agency that provides a wide array of services to individuals impacted by domestic and sexual violence it is the only agency with staff specifically trained to assist victims of domestic violence and sexual assaults in mercer county donna welcome thank you that's a heavy duty job it certainly is yes so your one component of women in space and your one of the people who counsels women who have shown up there yes yes so let's talk a little bit about defining domestic violence and because i think it's very easy for women to talk themselves out of admitting that they are victims of domestic violence i think it's not only it's not just not admitting not really recognizing what it is because it's all about power and control that's what the mystic violence is all about power and control instill fear in a person fear for many different reasons and it escalates all over the course of time sometimes it says very minimally very pervasively and over the course of time it intensifies and it becomes more and hard to deal with on the victim eventually begins to feel powerless due to the abuses use of isolation on domination and demeaning words and actions and sometimes they don't realize they think there is something wrong with them you know i it's so hard for those of us who haven't experienced it to say are you kidding it's a man beat you or whatever it is and yet i recently saw this ted talk of this woman who i think wrote a book and she had been  a victim of domestic violence and she described it and she said he had beaten her thrown her down the stairs held a gun to her head and she said if anybody had ever asked her and said are you a victim of domestic violence she would have actually said no and she said she what she would have said was she was deeply in love with a profoundly troubled man and she was the only one could save him ironically enough i saw the same video i thought it was very well done and it really i actually saved it on my computer on and it's so true because sometimes the victim feels that they are the only one that can help them that they've had an abused childhood they were in distress at work other precious but never willing to acknowledge that it's really an abuse issue right and they think they can change them but it's a choice you know and you know she described it kind of and i suspect there's different patterns but the pattern was you know first of all he was overly attentive just you know made her his world and she felt very cared for very loved and then i think the night before the wedding he beat her up and so then she you know again profoundly sorry and believe that this was an only one time thing and he had had that terrible childhood and how could she reject him and but i think from my understanding is what happens is that after a while it's almost like a brainwashing that you start to believe that you don't deserve better is that the case systematic breaking down that's what it is it's systematically kind of breaking down the person's sense of self sense of worth it's not because they don't have self esteem a lot of our clients do have self esteem but because of the abuse they begin to question themselves and that's where the powerlessness comes from ok this woman that you you spoke about this this video he also took her away to a far distant place isolated her first before he really continued with the intense abuse that he had she speaks about on their video right so he took her away from him but i don't know which is why is that it's isolation and lots of times also what happens with with our clients and we do see men by the way not just women on is that they become very fearful fear is the basis for a lot of the reason why our clients stay with the abuser because there's fear of they might get hurt this fear of their children being taken away this fear of homelessness fear of not being able to put food on the table fear of judgment so all that that that fear encapsulates most of of why women were i should say the victim stays in a relationship yeah and i guess that keeps growing the thing one of the things that they talked about was that women are more likely to be harmed after they leave the they're in danger of being harmed after they leave the abuser because now he has he or she has nothing to lose so you go ahead so so what happens is one of the things that a victim can do is if they choose to is get a restraining order and with you watch t v or you listen to the radio if you hear stories about domestic violence  in a victim being being killed it's usually after they get a restraining order and so when a client comes in and we asked them that question i usually know why why they haven't and i need them to say adverbially to me that they fear that what might happen to them is more severe than if they don't get the restraining order because what happens is when they stay in that relationship they begin to manage the behavior of the abuser they know exactly how to keep that person can and they w well and shells so it's very complex it's a very complex on dynamic that is hard to understand for the average person yes question there was going to ask you fl through but i do want to ask you so i know there are no like the right thing to do each case is individual but you know i've had people come to me as a coach and talk to me about you know domestic violence and the fear of leaving and again financial fear this woman said ultimately the thing that she said silence keeps it in place so she told her neighbor she told her coworkers she told the police she told her family and that kind of blew it wide open and that's not necessarily going to say that the abuser might still not come after her but it kind of blew it right open and gave her the doorway to walk through  but so people come to you let's say finally and i'm sure it takes something for them to come to you what is it that you can say to them what are some of the steps that will allow them to take that next step well the most important step that they've taken this to walk through our doors because i tell my clients that is soon as they walk through that front door they are no longer a victim they are a survivor as soon as they walk through those doors because they recognize that something is not right sometimes they can't really put their finger on it but they just know it's not right and friends or family members or coworkers might say to them why don't you go to women space they can work with you they can help you and sometimes we'll get a phone call we do phone screenings first and so sometimes on the phone the caller will say i don't really know if i'm going to be use of relationship i'm not you know i'm not getting hit but he's saying  saying these things to me i said you know what sometimes what will do come in let's talk and i you know usually get a feeling that the minimizing it a little easy to minimize and to really accept you know maybe it's me maybe i'm making a bigger thing out of it than it really is and most times when they come in we find that they have been minimizing it and it's their way that they survive right i suspect there's some shame associated with that as well because they feel something that they've done so or also that they are embarrassed to tell anyone like you know what will they think of me what i think of my husband or wife or whatever so women face from what i understand has like a twenty four hour hotline yes seven days a week so people can call and then when they walk in the door and you know i remember you and i spoke earlier and you talked about different kinds of abuse and so there is you know physical abuse there is emotional abuse and then you mentioned one that i never thought of financial abuse so say a little bit about that that's probably a very very that's really an insidious type of form of abuse because you know when you marry someone just say marriage as an example when you marry someone right it's built on trust and respect in a healthy marriage right right so when your spouse tells you that don't worry you don't have to work anymore i'm going to take care of the family and just take care of the caird so on and so on and so forth over the course of time it begins to feel like well you don't really do money for that or you're not working you  that and then additional abuse becomes even more prevalent and before you know it the names are taken off the accounts they have to ask for money even for gas for food they can't go food shopping th out it's just it's it escalates again like i said before it escalates and intensifies over time even that form of abuse many women that i've had i'd say in the past year were fraid to get a divorce because their husbands have said to them you know you won't get anything and i can to give you child support and i giving you alimony even though the the court says that they're supposed to pay it you won't see the children that's the other thing fear of losing the children custody so it's very very it's very very challenging when you are along the way but what are some of the signs women should watch out for say even in the arena of financial abuse like what's  an alternative worth should they be looking you know as far as you know as far as abuse goes well again you know would you say to women you know even if you're married and you choose to be a stay at home mom it's important for you to be part of his financial decisions are right you should be able to discuss finances in a healthy relationship it's a balanced relationship right ok so the breadwinner goes out earns the money you stay home you watch the children but you should be and even shopping for things for the house even buying some clothes for yourself even being able to get your hair cut once in a while there's nothing wrong with that that's that's that's the usual you know part of of living right and they tell you can't get a haircut you are the reason why we're in financial ruin because you get your hair done well we spend too much money on food so that should be kind of a red flag right you always know when you're in a healthy relationship right when you each one of you champions the other one no matter what you do whether it's being a stay at home mom a professional woman who have you on who should be able to live your life to the fullest  yeah i yes and i think part of my experience is that there aren't that many people who do all of that in a healthy way they do some pieces of it in a healthy way and i think that makes it easier for them to ignore the pieces that are unhealthy but also depends on you know how they grew up sometimes you know when you grow up a certain way that your normal right so you think this is expected yet alone you don't think there's anything wrong with it until one day when something doesn't feel right you know that's usually what happens they wake up one morning and say this doesn't feel i should be able to do this and i should be able to do that and you're right so we go through what  red flags what do you think is healthy you know what isn't healthy sometimes they don't know sometimes we don't know so can you list a few red flags certainly one of them is starting to control the finances to the point where they're treating you like a child and i'm the parent i get to make financial decisions undermining parenting skills ok demanding certain things be done ridicule criticizing the house isn't clean even though it might be it's not done the way they want the food isn't on the table a certain time calling constantly checking the bank account all the time calling the person up why did you go i mean they'll check the bank account you just were at the store why did you have to go to the store but meanwhile their work that alone i mean it's just different things checking and checking and checking and not allowing the person to be independent and just going through life you know it's very hard for him it's even hard for me to be able to to think about living it's very hard i really feel on hard for for clients you know because i don't know what that would be like you know i can only imagine what that would be like for them on a daily basis some of them can't say with it coming to counseling they can't pay because they don't have it which is fine we don't turn anybody away from the ability to pay but they can't do anything without checking with their significant other whoever that might be so how does one inspire them to it is it a long process is it you know in order to either leave that situation or well for the sake of plan and safety is the most important things if they're living with that person that becomes really crucial right safety so you try to find ways for them to to get there you know maybe find a job trying to find different things like that maybe try put some money aside there's various things they can do is a safety plan take  papers in a place where is safe if you have to i think you have to leave it's really we use empowerment strategies we use person centered on humanistic and empowerment strategies to show them that they can have a choice they can make their own decisions they just need someone to validate support them and that's really what we do we never tell our clients what to do we challenge them right right it almost sounds like a rebuilding process exactly that's what it is that's what empowerment is and i for me i like to use the word choice a lot and help them we frame the thought process if they say something really negative like what would it be like if we framed it like this i never thought of it that way and so when they learned to start with framing things like that it starts to give them more encourage me we one of the one of the tools that we we have in our inner agency is group we have a drug support group and that is an extremely empowering you know tool for a client to come in some people are a little kind of timid about speaking in front of other people but once they do they realize wow i'm not alone  i'm not crazy there are other people going through what i went through abuse is abuse right it doesn't matter yes it doesn't matter where you wore who you wore on how much money how little it doesn't matter it just a matters that it's painful yeah and put to you say and that whole thing about group you know again that's so power phone or in any situation where you going to a support group is because people really feel isolated and alone and then they suddenly discover oh wait a minute other people understand this and i think also it provides them with the comfort of not feeling judged exactly yeah and what do you say to people when they talk about i don't want to leave because of the children well then we talk about the impact it has on children many times individuals don't understand how it impacts the these children right so they stay and we find that children are acting out like i said what's going on at home can you give me some of the behaviors so sometimes acting out acting out in school acting at her home they're yelling they also all you know effects of what they see in the household we're finding more and more we have children's program at the agencies we do have when a mom is connected  the dad is connected to us the children can be connected also we find sometimes that when the behavior changes with the connection between mom and the child then the child you know becomes a little less strained you know a little calmer that the children's behavior changes also but children a very much impacted they become impacted even in utero if you're in a domestic violence situation even you know at that point children will be impacted even in u i totally agree with that but maybe you can explain a little how that happens well the stress of the mom yelling pushing around and then when you have a newborn right newborn and have you know the startle you know yes it's president's to sounds but that startle effect doesn't go away so readily when it's you know when you're hearing  the time they don't sleep the birth weight you know the weight the irritable miss babies can feel stressed even if you're not speaking stress you know if a mom is stressed out and you hold the baby baby's going to cry because  the not going to feel safe and secure right she's stressed out when the toddlers could be potty training could be a problem learning disabilities there are there are and you know on the one hand you know when women say but what about my children they're thinking of a roof over their head or sometimes they say they need that other parent  but what you're pointing to is it does damage beyond what we see immediately i would say impacts it greatly i mean it can be fixed you know what you're saying but it does it is impactful and lots of times the mom said well you know he's a good dad and so ok he's a good dad but is a good dad when children see how he treats you you know nothing i don't think about that you know because they're s directly then dad will lose child custody and visitation and buying things to do that wow what a web  what if you have women who come in and and as you say you never tell them what to do correct but what if someone is in the situation i had a woman talk to me and she was in the situation where she had no what she perceived as earning capacity and she was from a culture that frowned on divorce and was would not be supportive of her leaving her spouse are there situations that are unresolvable well i wouldn't say unresolvable but i would say what's challenging like you just explained so what we do is we help women to stay in a situation in a safe way and help them to emotionally disengage from what's going on to they can kind of deal with what they have to deal with until the time comes when they feel strong enough and have the ability to leave whether they support or from family or not not everybody supported when they leave the house you know but it's that you're right they  tied to that culture you know you're really torn between living in a kind of situation and having a family you know kind of like be disappointed so it's really it's really again difficult and complicated yeah so if you're going to kind of do a synopsis of a what to watch out for and be what are the most effective actions to take for someone in that situation well again the red flags would be control it's all about parent child feeling less than not feeling like you're an individual right being spoken to in a disrespectful way who type those away the red flags but the person needs to make that choice themselves or really they have to be able to make a choice as to what decision they want to make for the future we as an agency can support then we can we can give them referrals to different places they can also help support them but ultimately they're the one that needs to make the choices because ultimately they know with they need to do to stay safe is there a particular person who is more vulnerable than others to this kind of situation well you have a pregnant woman that's more vulnerable you have a someone who's disabled that's more vulnerable those to someone who is economically dependent on someone else there's a lot of different reasons this is so many reasons why someone would be vulnerable even a experience and you have any thoughts about like pre marital counseling i just to me it starts to make more and more sense and i did once suggest suggest it to someone and they said well what's wrong with our relationship and i said not necessarily anything but kind of just to give you a heads up of some of the expectations well i mean that could be a temporary thing i mean but that's not always you know g to see what their personal issues are and then once they settle their personal issues and then come together work as a couple yeah and again but there's no particular personality type that abuse is a choice right and what about the person who's being abused and in particular patterns or it's usually if there's no pattern you know the victim will think oh something that i do is on you know i didn't look the thing is what happens with an abuser is they find a vulnerability ok and they latch on to that they tell the victim all the right things  and it usually takes about six months for true colors to come true because you really can't hold it he really can't be that way for a long time if you're used to being a certain way and so on and once that happens and she's so into it you know that well he is so into it that they don't they don't know how to get out but it wasn't like this in the beginning when i first met that person they were like that and i think what we do is unrealistically hang on to that your memory rather than know look at all the current evidence because that's what they'll say to i still love him or yeah i still love her and i always say is that the person what they represent  to you that is it is the you know when you married you know it's it's a forever it's your forever after and it's a dream you know and it's like the stream is that you know i really love this person and so it takes them a while to separate i love the dream unfortunately we're at the end of our time but thank you so much i think it's important for women to a understand that they're not alone that it's not any particular segment of society that this happens to that there are warning signs to watch out for red flags and that there are resources yeah thank you donna my name is natasha sherman thank you