really committee against host demolitions that's a peace organization in jerusalem that struggles against the demolition by israeli bulldozers of palestinian homes and then struggles to end occupation that the present israel that's at war with its neighbors that thinks it has exclusive control over the country that is unwilling to even recognize illegitimacy of the palestinian people has got to change fundamentally in order for really not only to be peace but for israel to find its place in the middle east so redeeming israel means less the israeli state and it means israel as a people as a culture how are we going to redeem ourselves from occupation and colonialism and conflict how we're going to find a new relationship to the palestinians and the arabs among which we live in you know when i when i looked at your and some of your articles you had a term in there that caught my attention matrix of control would you explain what you mean by that israel's trying to create a permanent system of control and it's what i call a matrix of control using not only the military but using administration law planning the building of settlements the building of a massive highway system for example to reconfigure the entire country so that you can't detach the west bank from israel proper that the whole thing is one integrated whole so that's the so called facts on the ground that are made that's right and the concept is to have facts on the ground so massive and so permanent that they basically prejudice negotiations what israel won is to enter into negotiations in a way in which the outcomes have already been determined by the facts on the ground now how do these home demolitions which your  palestinian homes in the occupied territories since one thousand nine hundred eighty seven and in ninety five percent of the cases these demolitions have nothing whatsoever to do with security or terrorism so called but they're intended to either drive the palestinians out of the country or to confine them to little iowans of the country but what we have to understand is that the conflict didn't begin in sixty seven that in one nine hundred forty eight israel destroyed systematically more than five hundred entire palestinian villages two thirds of the villages of palestine were systematically destroyed by israel not in the heat of battle but after the war was over in order prevent the palestinian refugees from returning and ordered to take their land so if we look at the bigger picture from forty eight until today house demolitions means that you are denying people the right not only to our home and we know that human beings can't function without homes it means the message is get out you have no place here but if we connect hold the whole land in a wider sense israel is also saying you have no right no national right to be in this country you have no individual right to have a home here because we won't let you have a home and you have no national right to a home here because this is our country go to some other arab country strong terms that today recently poppy who just has a book that's called the ethnic cleansing of palestine so this is very well documented but israel has a problem and that is that there are about four million palestinians in the occupied territories that it's not going to get rid of we can't drive them out we can't load them up on trucks and ship model the country we're stuck with them so in a weird way even though israel claims the entire country and even though israel denies the claims of palestinians we still need a palestinian state but we need a band to stand we need in other words if we can take the palestinians shove them into little islands of the west bank and g control them so we control the entire country we get them off our hands the problem is what do we do with these four million arabs we don't even use the word palestinian to talk about arabs in order to even deny or ter terrorism even eat in order to even deny that they have some legitimate national identity and rights so what do we do with these arabs well if we can't drive them out at least we can confine them to a bent to stand allah south africa during the apartheid era and that's israel's concept of a two state solution and that's a party in other words if we can't do ethnic cleansing completely the next best thing is a party to it which we control the entire country and confine the palestinians to know how to how do the israelis square that with un two four two resolution and the fourth geneva convention isn't aren't they running smack in the midst of those two israel doesn't recognize the application of international law or any of those resolutions the way the way zionism which is the jewish national movement conceives of this issue is that the jews are in a historically justified and moral process of redeeming their ancient homeland and this land belongs to the jews and therefore and therefore that trumps international law well you know  says that the palestinians are the first people i mean this other populations of surplus humanity there are prisoners millions of prisoners throughout the world and prisons that have disappeared that are warehoused you have a billion people living in urban slums around the world you have so called illegal immigrants there are billions of people that are that are being warehoused that are surplus humanity that the capitalist system is essentially written off but she claims the only klein claims that the palestinians are the first entire people who have been categorized by the international community as surplus humanity the palestinians are guinea pigs the palestinians are being warehoused in israel's developing a model through its occupation of warehousing of surplus humanity that is exporting and if we ask the question how does israel get away with this why does it have the international support that it has including uncritical support from the united states why i think one of the answers is that it's it's serving a very useful function for the capitalist world and that is to create models of control of counterinsurgency which is warfare against the people and of warehousing of surplus humanity that these countries can then apply to other parts of the world like iraq and like africa you know  x airport in seattle just hired israeli security firms to deal with security in the airports the seattle police force has intimate relations with the israeli military the israeli police so that this is a whole system of control it's not just a matrix of control that's israeli palestinian it's a global reach of control that israel is is is the cutting edge of and is exporting to the rest of the world so i would suggest simply that the people here look at the occupation not only from the palestinian point of view but an occupation that's going to get to their doorstep one of these days which is drawing local police for what you're calling global palestine exacts the warning now i've got to follow up on the connection of ms really and the seattle police force can you elaborate just a little bit there look israel works intimately with police forces all over the world every year there is there's a conference of chiefs of major american police forces held in israel the police forces come to israel for counterinsurgency training training in the latest weaponry and tactics they're brought into the west bank to see how israel deals with the palestinians and then through security firms through the military through the israeli police those kinds of taxes tactics and weaponry are brought here they're brought to the united states the human rights violations brought from israel to the united states so when israel pioneers counterinsurgency tactics using palestinians as guinea pigs in nob loose in gaza and other places this is a this don't think that this is going to stay in the military sphere this stuff is taken immediately into police forces into security firms and it finds its way in an hour into l a x into seattle in ways that i think the citizenry is not aware and part of our raising the warning here is to say don't think the palestinians the palestinians are the guinea pigs the guinea pigs aren't the end of the story the guinea pigs are the beginning of a process of these technologies being applied elsewhere so the palestinians might be the first ones to suffer from the matrix of control counterinsurgency warehousing and all of that but it's going to come to seattle as well so eventually we're all be global policy that's right very very apt term there now i want to divert a little bit into the mindset this is happening in israel surely there has to be some lively debate are heard that the debates are much more widely are in israel than they are in the united states we're pretty much quiet down here tell me about the israeli jewish mind can ignore what is going on or does it ignore readies don't ignore it but they deny it this reality of occupation and oppression and so on you know there's two things going on one is that israelis have accepted the basic zionist promise that says this country belongs to us so anybody who is not jewish doesn't really have a place or let me put it this way if you're an arab or if you're if you're not jewish and living in israel you can live in israel on suffer because we are allow you to not by rights not done right and therefore you have no right to to resist or to or to challenge our our ownership of the country that's one thing the other thing is that that the israelis have been told by all of their leaders from right to left that there is no political solution that this is a clash of civilizations i mean again the bush language the post nine eleven languages is very useful in israel and there's no solution because we're dealing with arabs and they're terrorists and they're moslems and they're not rational what most israelis do then is they say look there's nothing to do then let's rely on our army they'll take care of our security and we'll we'll just ignore that we'll live in a bubble where our orientation is towards europe and the united states not towards the arab world we have a wall now a twenty six foot concrete wall with our back to the arab world and in that  very well the economy is doing very well tourism is back israel's international standing improves all the time israelis are feeling very secure these days and so there's really no urgency or no motivation for them not only to end the occupation because israel profits from the occupation sixty percent of israeli firms do export have something to do a security which is based on our experience with you know would have to look at the occupied territories as a laboratory that that plugs into the israeli economy so israel benefits from the occupation israel is protected the israeli population is protected from the violence of the occupation and from that point of view is these don't they just the souther they ignore it they deny it it's irrelevant and that's one reason why we have such a problem trying to engage with the israeli public because they don't want to talk about one of your articles or victim is a very in a way a very convenient place to be so if israel can combine being an occupying power being the fourth largest nuclear power in the world having tremendous military economic political power and yet we're the victims that means we're off the hook fundamental but it is a conflict over where yes it's a conflict over land in which in which you have two peoples claiming the same the same land in which the palestinians are willing to compromise when the palestinians are even willing to accept a two state solution in which they only get twenty two percent of the country but it's israel that says no we want all the country because it belongs to us and so there's an important point i'm trying to make is that there's an asymmetry here there isn't the problem of both sides the palestinians are willing not only to have peace but they're willing to go beyond well beyond coming you know in our direction they're willing to accept twenty two percent it's worth the problem where the problem because we say they don't exist they have no rights and it all belongs to us your title one of your articles israel's the oppressor now i have a question could israel withdraw to the sixty seven borders viably the occupied territories are necessary for israeli existence their useful like i said because of the of refining diamonds high tech tourism agriculture israel has a very diverse and a very good cause to be it is viable with it without those territories and the sense that you know that's what we're trying to say is that let's not think about zionism let's not think about the land of israel let's begin to think of ourselves as israelis as israelis living in a country with certain borders and i think that's beginning to happen let me let me just say that i think that that the israeli public for all kinds of reasons has been disempowered both by the idiology and by what i said about these political leaders saying there's no political solution but  international community would come in if the united states president would come and say to israelis the occupations over we love you will guarantee your security the occupation is over you know all tomorrow you're  you would have dancing in the streets of tel aviv because that's israelis are not committed to the occupation but again they've been manipulated and you know in this country how good fear is from the manipulation as they've been in middle manipulated to think that if we give up the occupied territories and give the palestinians a state that is going to be an extension of threats to our survival our message of the peace movement is the opposite that that that the threat is holding on to these territories and not making peace with the arab world and the palestinians and therefore as israelis we want to live in israel we don't want to live in in the land of israel want to live in the state of israel and there's a very important shift champion saying that israel should withdraw how do you feel that he's saying now and years ago well he doesn't really mean that you know that's why it's very important to the whole concept of the matrix of control that i have that i've been working on says you've got to look at the fine print of these things what almost says we have to get out of most of the west bank you got to ask yourself what is the most to me you see when you know he doesn't relate to the fact for example we're going to give up the jordan river as a border with jordan will the palestinians have a border with an arab country he doesn't get into that you know we're not going to give up a greater jerusalem we might give up a little islands inside jerusalem in other words if you start looking at the fine print it turns out that what he seems to east seems to be forthcoming he sees me saying yes let's have a two state solution but if you look at his concept really in terms of ok what territory what does israel keeping what does israel giving back what do the palestinians have viability do they have real sovereignty can they have an economy do they have a country coherent territory what's happening to the settlements because wal mart is advocating a plan in which eighty percent of the suburbs remain in the major settlement blocks of the west bank but what about the new prime minister bode for directions towards peace same old same old same old positions there is no one not one of them that sincerely and honestly and hearing or promoting a political program that will lead to a just peace and to a viable palestinian state none of them so today tzipi livni who's from the right wing of the likud and she's not in the middle she's not a moderate she's a woman she's very well spoken she comes off sounding reasonable but but she's very extreme in one of your tickles you mention that there's no hope for a peace solution with israel that's for you standing by the yeah i mean both because because israel has an interest in the present situation and because the political leaders have an interest in maintaining the status quo and and also you know what i also want to make something else clear israelis don't want the occupation they did but and they want peace but by peace israelis mean peace and quiet they don't mean reconciliation with palestinians they don't mean let's be neighbors let's live together no they want the wall in other words israelis want separation it's actually named the separation and well in the official name is the separation barrier it is not the security barrier the point of the wall is not security that's the way it's sold but it's not true it's to separate jews from palestinians so one of the problems we have is that even the concept that israelis have of peace isn't peace in the sense that we mean it of people living together and enjoying the benefits of economically prosperous area it's peace and quiet in which the palestinians are there behind the wall there's no conflict and we can get on with our lives within our little ghetto within our little you know walled in fortress community but for for any secession of atrocities and hostilities it's going to take some outside influence what i said before i think is true if the international community to say to israel we recognise your your security concerns that we'll address you know what israel you can be a part of nato will address your security concerns if they're genuine but the occupation is bad for all of us i think and this is what i'm writing about this occupation compromises the interest of the united states if the united states wants to get out of iraq if it wants to try to accommodate itself to the entire moslem world the billion people in this world it's got to deal with the palestine conflict it's like a bone in the throat e u can't bypass it you can't get out of iraq unless you deal with what's festering underneath which for the moslems is the palestine issue because this is the humiliation of islam this is neil colo is american imperialism and until you deal with that you're never going to get on with business as usual so if we can make the point to americans and to europeans as well that it's in your interest don't do it for the sake of the palestinian it's in your interests that this conflict be resolved and therefore you have to be assertive with israel because israel is going to bowl you're going to have to be tough and you're gaza save israel look you know it's over period then then we have a chance to get a solution of this falling short of that israel can keep this thing going for another hundred years more for viewers watching your call the actions that public opinion matters and that's very much the need to raise the occupation that's for some for our own interest well that's the point i mean first of all that i mean there's two things first of all american should oppose the occupation because it's wrong and it's and it's immoral and it's oppressive and it violates the human rights of palestinians and it violates international law i mean on that level without being cynical those are very good reasons to oppose an occupation but if but at the same time palestine is far away from people so we're trying to do is to impress americans with the fact that this is an american problem because because you know in every want to bin ladin stapes almost he mentions palestine so that like i said just a minute ago that in american interests if you want the united states that's a part of the world it's economically prosperous it's a peace then you've got to you've got to to end this conflict for american clubs to choose to be enter into the bates today we call ourselves the civil society we can mobilize people churches trade unions university groups you know the man on the street if we can get the people mobilized so that the people in congress see that back home in their constituencies there's a concern about this issue and if we can make the issue like i just said an american issue i want this the issue of palestine to be seen as an issue that impacts on americans this is a local washington seattle issue and i want to bring that message to my member of congress to my senator that i want you to resolve this conflict for my from here you are not in israeli senator you're not going israeli congressperson you're an american member of congress and i expect you to represent my interests which is to end this occupation so it's that reframing that we have to do to get people to understand that this issue is important to them and then go to the members of congress because the members of congress themselves are not going to take the initiative forget about it special interests i mean that's a real problem in the american system special interests heavily financed really run the system so i think part of what we should be doing is to uncover that you should know how much money your member of congress gets from a pac that should be public knowledge and that should be published ised you know you should know you know how many junkets your member of congress has taken to israel i mean you should know all these sorts of things that should be out on the table and that's part of the job of people that are activists is to get we have to begin to hold members of congress accountable for what they're doing and i think today they do what they do because they know that the people back home really don't know that much about it and the viewers have to know that this is very much an important issue we have to avoid global policy on we have to bring principles