appreciate the folks coming out we have a packed evening a lot of different things on our agenda and we also have to public comment opportunities i just remind folks that public comment is a little bit different a study session  it's not just about everything in anything that's reserved for our railer meetings it's specific to topics that are on the agenda and it's actually an opportunity for you to be able to participate you know in a more comprehensive way in councils dialogue so if you would like to take the opportunity to speak on any of these issues we encourage you to do so if it's just simply don't like or like we'd ask that you reserve that for a public hearing and we will go ahead and open the first round public comment there's weathers did you sign up to speed before or after you're up thank you i don't know why this doesn't  has focused on micro recycling and hard to recycle items however today i would like to speak about the building code update the reality is the majority of our waste comes from building construction and demolition so although my focus is smaller what we need to do to get the bigger bang for our buck is focused on this area and i'm really excited to see the amended changes to the building code update and i just wanted to offer my personal support of the update the other thing that i wanted to talk about is the shopping carts i just wanted to offer a quick idea i do not envy any of you working on this issue right now i know it's very complicated there's a lot of factors involved i just wanted to throw an out of the box idea out there so in other countries where people rely heavily on public transportation people are dependent on finding a way to getting their groceries from from the store to to home here what i've noticed is where the shopping carts congregate tends to be the bus stop locations i happen to live by one so i see the shopping carts regularly and it just occurred to me that the reason why they're congregating there is because people are using the shopping carts to take their groceries to the stop so it's not a one hundred percent solution but if we find a way to alleviate the burden for people who are using public transportation we might help alleviate this problem problem so in other countries where public transportation is more utilized these  devices are used this gadget will let you carry fifty pounds of groceries so if you have two of them you can carry one hundred pounds of groceries they're just not common here i think a lot of people don't know about them in japan for example grocery stores give them out so they want you to shop at their store they want to make your life easier there they're handed to customers these are sold for ninety nine cents in other countries that store similar to dollar stores so i don't think this would be very expensive to implement i think if the city were to partner with rtd and with the grocery stores themselves it would pay for itself and  it's just partially educating the public on finding another way to get your groceries home i also wanted to mention that i just i want to call on you general john f kennedy you know it's not about what your buddy helped me out here um it's not what you can do for your country it's yeah yeah you guys got it anyway sorry  i just think if we all work together and you know took a little initiative to just make an effort and try to solve this on our own it's this problem is go big if everyone can just take a little bit of time if you are able bodied please if you see a shopping cart please take it back and help the city while the city is trying to figure this out and that's it and this is for councillor johnson  upon one point with sustainability and the movement towards clean energy solar in particular with each job that or each sale or each resident that that decides to go solar you're supporting quite a cast of of people that are working in this industry these are good paying local jobs with solar so if you have ordinance that is encouraging solar you're encouraging jobs i just wanted to make that point tonight thank you thank you amar right that's all that signed up so before we go into our first presentation which is building code updates i want to welcome somebody to the dyess or actually to the lower portion of our diets and that's ben goldstein who is our new deputy city manager and this is his first meeting so welcome we are glad to have you and excited to work with you at the city lakewood all right mister hutchinson it's a busy night for you sir good evening city council and all others who are hearing or viewing this the first topic on your agenda tonight subsequent to the public discussion that you just had was about the building code update this is a very routine item just doesn't happen real often cities all across the country actually internationally adopt building codes routinely in fact all these documents that you'll hear a little bit a little bit about are actually from the international code council we'll be going through those page by page are you off next week but i did want to point out that they're there they're pretty routine it's the normal item that is the building code for most most local governments around the country and internationally there are however local amendments these documents are created by an internationally composed group of people in the industry of municipalities people on all sides of all the different kinds of topics that are dressed in those after they go through that vetting process which takes months and months and months then come to each of the local communities and and we do the same kind of thing given our local circumstances so there are multiple entities they're involved in reviewing them making comments on them we look at that plans that have already been adopted by the city we talk with our local fire district because  local fire districts as you read they're actually three that serve the city of lakewood in one form or another and then ultimately the board of appeals that you appoint will make a recommendation to you about this ordinance they've not made that recommendation yet only because we wanted to get past this evening and see if there were any changes before they made their final recommendation they have had several meetings as you'll hear here in a few minutes about what you've got before you this evening in addition to the information specific to the building that you're also going to have a little educational interlude in the middle of the presentation from the west metro fire protection district fire marshal and i think that'll be helpful to put some things in context it doesn't really affect the recommendation but we wanted to give you an opportunity to hear that because it's a topic that comes up occasionally and and we'll hold on that those specifics for just a little bit our recommendation tonight is asking you to two for a consensus rarely to bring the ordinance forward that would adopt these codes with the amendments that you see in your packet and with that i'm going to introduce the main presenter this evening miss ann hine who is the city engineer for the city of l and city council thanks for the opportunity to give you a brief presentation on our efforts with a liquid building code update tonight we'll talk a little bit about what the building code is and what it applies to the process that we've gone through to date to adopt a new code we'll do a brief overview of the proposed ordinance and then we'll open it up to city council discussion the so what is this lakewood building code as jay said it's all of this which are published codes they're published by the international code council and the national national fire protection association and then it's a series of local amendments to the published codes so the published codes give us the opportunity to provide some consistency among other jurisdictions in the metro area in the whole country and then the local amendments in our title fourteen of the municipal code give us the opportunity to tailor these codes to our specific needs so these codes plus our local amendments cover all new construction in liquid residential and commercial covers all the the systems within the buildings and energy conservation and fire fire protection it applies to new construction but it does and and buildings that are being modified but it does not apply to existing buildings so there's no requirement in the building code to retrofit a building to bring it up to the current code unless you're doing work in the building we've been spending about the last eighteen months on this adoption process we started with a staff review of the newly published codes and a review of our local amendments to see what we needed to change and what had changed in the published codes engaged our board of appeals which is a body appointed by city council its members need to have some building construction experience or experience with the building codes and that's because one of their main tasks is to provide a recommendation to you regarding building code updates so we met with them in several study sessions they support the ament the ordinance as we presented it tonight and we expect that they'll act on a resolution at their next regular meeting which is next tuesday we'll update them on the discussion tonight and then barring any major changes we expect them to act on a resolution that resolution will be provided to you as we move forward in the adoption process we've had a fairly robust stakeholder engagement process some of the groups on this list are your typical stakeholders they are affected by the building code some are our enforcement partners some are internal and external groups in the city and then this time around we had a lot of advisers specifically related to energy conservation and energy efficiency the stakeholders are very familiar with the published codes so most of our discussion was related to our local a the local amendments in the draft ordinance fall into several categories we use the local amendments to define our administrative processes related to fees and how we issue permits each of the published codes has a section that had to issue permits and what to charge for them but we keep local control that so our ordinance has an administrative chapter we also use amendments to define local conditions such as our local wind load in our local snow load we're using local amendments to support other city goals such as goals of the sustainability plan there are some local amendments that are required by colorado law and in in the draft ordinance you'll see in the  amendments that are just crossed out those are no longer needed some of those provisions are now in the published codes and some are related to technologies that no longer needed your your packet also has a memo that has very specific information about local amendments per each one of the published codes i'm not going to go through that in any detail but i did want to bring your attention to a couple of the amendments or a few of the amendments that raised the most input from stakeholders the first is residential fire sprinklers these are sprinklers for single family duplex townhome buildings not commercial buildings that requirement is in the international building code this fire residential fire sprinkler requirement is in the international residential code it first appeared in two thousand  and at that time lakewood decided to amend that requirement out of the code so the current lakewood building code does not have this requirement and the proposed liquid building code does not have this requirement the board of appeals discussed this and there they support the amendment that removes the requirement and as part of that discussion you heard from jay hutchison earlier the west metro fire marshal marshall presented a  and councilmembers thanks for giving me a minute talk to you this evening first of all i wanted to say working with mike and anne has been a phenomenal process they're very progressive thinkers and they they're taking the whole picture into account of how these code changes affect the whole community so it's been a pleasure to work with them on this this proposal tonight so to start with what i wanted to accomplish tonight we just give you a little bit insight what some of the issues are with fire sprinklers and why they're in the code to begin with it's not a simple answer it doesn't solve all the issues there's a lot of stakeholders that need to be part of this discussion so this is something i hope to just give you an idea of the background to it as we go on throughout the years and talk about this as a solution so the problem is the fire service sees it it's overwhelmingly a problem in home fires you can see they're ninety two per cent of the civilian fire deaths are in homes an average of three thousand deaths in homes a year lakewood averages over three hundred fire events a year with two to three fatalities so some of that issue comes from new construction methods so as construction gets better more efficient more engineered it also doesn't last very long under fire a lot of lightweight construction means that the buildings don't survive very long also probably a lot of the houses that we grew up in something like the kitchen was its own room now the kitchen is part of the whole first floor so if a fire started in the kitchen in our heyday it stayed there now as soon as it starts the smoke goes through the whole house so so those are some of the reasons that new construction is a little bit more fire hazardous than it used to be and the contents the furniture the furniture burns faster and hotter if you want to get an example of this there's a lot of videos on youtube or you can come to our annual fire family fire muster and we show a demonstration of that so one of the solutions that the code proposes is residential fire sprinklers and that's like and said the sprinklers in actually a single family home so some of the benefits to that eighteen gallons a minute that's about what that sprinkler head flows and only one goes off it's not like in the movies where they all go off versus one hundred and eighty gallons a minute that comes out of a firehose so much bigger drenching going on when we show up as opposed sprinklers in the house one hundred or a dollar thirty five per square foot is the national average that doesn't mean that's the average in colorado could be quite a bit more expensive in colorado so that's why i say this is not a simple solution but it's worth a discussion it would be installed by plumbers or contractors flexible tubing now makes this an easier process circulate it through the household plumbing so it doesn't get stale water in it and again only the the sprinkler head over the fire operates not the whole house full of sprinklers goes off smoke alarms don't set off the sprinklers and there's no freezing if they're installed correctly which when it's installed by plumbers that should be the case so that's a little example  fire behind the chair extinguished by sprinklers versus one extinguished by firefighters so whether or not you want to wait for that so again this is not a simple idea it takes stakeholders we did have some specific stakeholder input regarding this amendment the water providers hand would handle this requirement inconsistently as you know there are twenty one water providers within the city of liquid and they all had a slightly different way of  handling it so there's no predictability for the builders in some cases a separate fire line would be required and that would require an additional tap fee which could add significantly significantly to the cost in both the water tab and the the other issue that the water providers raised is liability they sometimes have to turn off water to a home based on non payment of a bill that would also turn off the fire sprinkler and they're they're worried about their liability if that should occur and a fire occur the home builders association of metro denver supports removing the fire sprinkler requirement but even though it's not a requirement it still remains an option so a builder or prospective home buyer could request the residential fire sprinklers in their home and we have a way of doing that in west metro fire has agreed to do all the plan review and the building inspection and we can integrate that into the normal plan review we do here at the city and the normal inspection we do throughout the construction the other series of amendments that garnered a lot of interest were the amendments we added in supporting the sustainability plan goals these are related to the three topics you see for energy efficiency we are proposing in commercial and residential buildings and electrical vehicle charging readiness in residential and commercial buildings and that's an amendment for energy efficiency on top of what the base code requires so we're moving from the two thousand nine energy conservation code to the two thousand and fifteen code and that provides about a twenty percent increase in energy efficiency for a new building built under the two thousand and fifteen code that's before we get to any of the amendment we're proposing one amendment for water efficiency that reduce or prohibits the use of a single pass cooling system where water comes in cools and then is discharged so it has to recycle we're also proposing amendments that will reduce waste construction waste and demolition waste there are provisions for both residential and commercial construction waste recycling and demolition waste recycling so in summary we're proposing to move from the two thousand and nine international suite of codes and the two thousand and eleven national electric code to the two thousand and fifteen international codes and the two thousand and seventeen national electric code and we are recommending your concurrence to move forward with adoption of the ordinance right thank you miss hein so i just would like to mention to to those folks who may be tuning in or in the audience we had a great opportunity to have some time with the building code recommendations we appreciate the red line actually it's a blue line version so thank you that was helpful to see where we're  changing things and i think there'll be a few questions and again to ask for council is to recommend moving forward for adoption or at least for a public hearing on adoption and we will start with questions one of the things i hear most about is attainable in affordable housing a number of these things would probably increase the price of a new house and i'm wondering if we have any figures on that and we have to certainly balance sustainability with livability but you know i'm the guy who repairs my own appliances because i don't want to see new ones put on the market unless they have to be they have a huge carbon footprint but how does that stack out now what will this if we enact all of these fitting for new homes the recycling of dry old driveways all of that sort of thing how does this affect that  we also mentioned pardon oh do you want to answer them one at a time or i think that would be something that might take some study and bring back to us at before second reading each each time the building codes are updated there are new provisions in the published codes as well as the local amendments some increased costs some reduced cost so we have not evaluated the changes in the the published codes what that would do to say an average home cost we we do know that the the energy efficiency amendments that we're proposing add a small cost its readiness it's not installing the equipment so the solar readiness is providing a pa and a location on the service panel so that it's easier to retrofit this later it's not requiring assault the solar panels i understand that but i don't understand small costs i don't understand might and and that what i would like to know is have some fairly firm figures of what this might add to the cost of a new home if you could bring that to  us when we consider the ordinance i would appreciate it there are also some mention of some terms in here i'm not sure about lodging houses as that short term rentals and i'm sorry i didn't mark down what exactly where those could these things can be found it's it's in its a fire provision for live work areas and for lodging homes home we have some bed and breakfasts in liquid that are allowed by the zoning ordinance and we didn't have anything in the building code that addressed how we would handle fire so the building code calls them lodging homes it would be regulated under the zoning code as a bed and breakfast okay thank you for clarifying that u nder sixteen oh nine point four we talk about exposure see under exposure maybe it's fourteen good evening ladies and gentlemen mike sizemore in the building official yes sir exposure categories are based on weather conditions and and other various things and it's it's part of the  part of the design equation that a design professional will use that's why it's in chapter sixteen we typically call chapter sixteen or engineering chapter that's a design professional chapter there's a couple of different exposures there's abc there may even be a d and they're rated on the severity of weather conditions yeah and and other things as well and then some of it is is based on the the landscape and also the  how many buildings you have how many high rise buildings or low rise or mid rise and various other things okay y'all are very close to these things and know what all those things mean and we're just kind of grasping in the door sometimes it's not something you can look up easily also yeah and i've been i've wondered about this for some time showers are treated separately differently than bathtubs and they require a different size drain we're requiring a different sized drain here most showers are taken in bathtubs so why is there a greater requirement for a standalone shower a sour pan than there would be for a shower that's part of a bathtub setup and that's been part of code for some time i know this because i put it in a shower pan and went and tried to get a fixture that fit the s drain for it and the everything had changed since then so what's the logic well it's it's it's a capacity of the shower pan i believe and you get so you that requires it to be to be a little drain faster okay thank you welcome that's it from an out great counselor roybal thank you mayor got a couple questions for you the first one i read through a hundred and nine pages of information and i just wanted to bring to your attention i'm a k hud inspector but one of the the commonalities and i wanted to bring to your attention you talked about the  codes you talked about a lot of things but i didn't hear anything about smoke detectors and the upgrade on how they're doing along with the carbon monoxide testers and how you know how would that be updated in the new buildings but the big one i want to talk about also is the radon gas the radon in the basements or in different areas can you guys give us a little bit of information about that  please carbon monoxide detectors and smoke detectors are both outlined in in several of our codes we've actually made an amendment to be better and sync with the state requirements on the location of carbon monoxide detectors in residential units so the building code is quite aware of the need for carbon monoxide the safety requirements the same with the same with fire smoke detectors they've been in the code for some time carbon monoxide detectors i believe were inserted in two thousand and twelve the state recognized the need for them earlier and passed a law regarding  done related to radon and when was that done if i may ask but what basically what year just trying to get a general grasp of it to see if it may we may want to take a closer look at it again and maybe ask for an update or something to kind of kind of move forward technology is growing very rapidly and i just want to make sure that when we bring all our codes up that we meet with the technology of today's standards right i believe it was two thousand and twelve when that study was done in a separate ordinance was adopted the radon provisions that we've adopted are the current provisions that are in the two thousand and fifteen building code we've made some minor amendments to those that are specific to lakewood but i believe that they're the most up to date radon codes we've had other cities ask us about as those well that's awesome i just wanted to make sure that we were current and up to date with with that particular the radon issue i think the chief would would also acknowledge that  you know in a small house with radon and they live in the basement you know we tend to lose a lot of lives like that so that's all i have thank you right and just for a reference mister roybal fourteen  mayor my questions are a little scattered as i went down first i'd like to thank bruce for your update on the the fire restrictions and i appreciate the intent of the mandated sprinklers but i actually support an opt in i've had a chance to do a little bit of research on that and it sounds like it could add as much as twenty thousand dollars to a new home and i am constantly hearing and being reminded of affordability so there's some things that homeowners are going to have to decide if they want to go forward on that so i support the op in i'd love to see us mandated however for the motels on colfax that i could support bruce okay let me just kind of jump around here on page five here we've got that there's a requirement to remove existing roofing layers and you can't place a new roof on and old does that mean that all of the old existing roofing product needs to come off and if we're requiring that are we actually sending an inspector out when that is done prior to the roofing fabric going up we are requiring that we are not doing that that particular inspection but we still are trying the best that we can to verify that that has been done the reason we're not doing that inspection because it would add some in some cases a whole day to that project a lot of times roofers come in they want to be gone in and out in one day sometimes it's longer iffy especially if they're doing it next to you it seems like but that's why we don't do that inspection but that is a requirement yes but there's actually no way if we frankly know if it's being done well again we we can do some non destructive testing and visualization and we can generally see our roofing inspectors you've been doing this a long time can generally tell if it's been done and on not always but generally we can okay this one's a little near and dear to my heart my i had a new roof replaced at my dad's and the new roof leaked and so i'm you know kind of wondering more about that process i saw on page five the the interest in swimming pools and spas and it applies to residential this is on page five the first batch of it commercial spas and hot tubs and could you please describe the application for hot tubs because many homes and just put one in and are we actually now asking i'm not familiar if we're asking for permits and talk to me what does that look like please with the swimming pool and spa code which is a new code of course swimming pools and spas were regulated prior to that in fragment and places throughout the codes and plumbing code billing code electrical code does require permits for spas unless they're portable okay and under the mechanical code i just recently learned that we need to have a permit in order to clean the ac condenser on the roof please accurate or is and talk to me about that that seems to be a little bit of a difficulty for some businesses i i would i would consider that maintenance and information on page six there's language regarding requiring solar ready construction could you please talk a little bit about that what does that look like and what are we looking at in terms of cost certainly the cost i don't know that we have that information i think that's something that will try to capture and bring back to the next meeting the requirement for solar there's a commercial requirement and there's also a residential requirement the commercial requirement is is built into the code the residential requirement is something that we've added basically we're talking about being ready to install solar that means that your building whether your residential or commercial needs to be oriented properly and there's there's  specific orientation calculations that are provided that give you the optimal sunlight and things of that nature on the on the residential side we're asking for additional  space for the for the electrical circuits and what have you and have of labeled we're also asking on the front end for proper load tests that we want to make sure if someone does up to put in solar that they have the a ppropriate structural roof members to support that already so they don't have to go back and do that at a later date okay this is a something i've not i'm not at all familiar with and it was on page seven regarding wind speed could you please talk a little bit about that i can yeah i'm not sure even what what it building the denver region is in what's called a special wind region so there are no maps in the building code if you look in the building code chapter sixteen there's a couple of wind maps in there it tells you for example in southern florida that when design is one hundred and fifty miles an hour for various places it's identified because it's there's enough evidence to to put together a map however in a special wind zone there is not the wind changes all the time that wind can be extremely high or higher than normal so what we rely on is is a study that was completed by association engineers back in two thousand and ten and that's a basis for the denver region to define the wind speed and and that's what we've used obviously and that's what everybody in this region will use to identify wed speed now you'll see it's it's different in various places it's going to be much higher in parts of jeffco then it would be here in lakewood and it's going to be a little lower on the east side of denver i'm still the slow child how does this apply to the building co yeah it's the design parameters that that are formulated based on the whims wind speed so for example if you're going to build a building and your wind speed is a design factor of a hundred and ten your wind speed is one hundred and ten you need to make sure that your building is designed to withstand that wind if it's no the orientation of the building on the way there's a lot of factors that go into that it changes certainly the higher you go  it depends on the type of building there's different risk categories of buildings there's four different categories of buildings one through four for being hospitals and police stations and things like that that we would like to see  standing if all else fails but there are minimum standards that certainly we want to make sure that everybody is safe okay thank you and then it's been mentioned in here new language that basically is mandating construction materials that are taken off or taken off of a site to be reused again  do we know the added cost to a to what that is going to be won't that add staff time and how does that figure in and i'd like to know if other cities are doing this i'm actually having a hard time with that one i'd like to ask jonathan wachtel from the sustainability division to answer that question he does have some information okay thanks counselor i am jonathan wachtel sustainability division and i don't know if i can answer all the cost questions that you might have but we do have a bit of research on a lot of the added added sustainability elements and i can talk a little bit about what we  do know and then there's probably more that you'd like so the salt you asked about the solar ready requirements and if that would ask cost add cost what we've been able to find so far is that it shouldn't add cost and the reason for that is that it's really a design issue so what we're asking developers to do is when they build that building when they build that home to make sure there's a clear pathway from the box to the roof so that wiring can in the future placed in that that pathway and that the roof is designed so that the portion of the roof if it's suitable because it doesn't apply to all developments as to do with developments that are sited in a way that makes sense and have roofs at at appropriate pitch that you leave those portions of the roof available as a designated space so it's ready to go and take the solar the solar installation in the future so really it's mostly a design issue on that and we reached out to some other cities city of seattle responded that after they put their solar ready residential rules in place they basically came up with a zero cost estimate to what that should cost cuz it was a design issue  certainly that's one city so we can probably do more research make sure that's really the case but that's where we're at right now on the construction and demolition it depends on materials and i think what's important to note is the materials that are included in the list  we did our research into first of all did they make up a significant portion of the waste stream so that it was worth the added effort for the builder to have to separate this stuff and manage the site and then is there an outlet where these things can be recycled in proximity to to lakewood so it makes it reasonable so the costs that we have researched concrete is about three to six dollars a ton and that makes up thirty to seventy percent of our construction and demolition waste stream asphalt's the next largest percentage of the waste stream for somewhere between fourteen and twenty nine percent that cost about one dollar to five dollars a ton to recycle would is between seven and seventeen percent of your typical c and d waste stream and that cost between two dollars and forty cents and eight dollars a ton depending on the wood so we do have those numbers and then just to i actually looked this up earlier today if you took and not this is just two businesses that happen to have information on their website  so the cost at the front range landfill to dump a ton of concrete is fifty six dollars if you're gonna landfill it and at the allied recycling facility in commerce city you can dump an entire and dump trailer which can carry about fifteen tons of concrete for seventy five dollars so that comes out to five dollars a ton to recycle it as opposed to fifty six dollars a ton to take it to the landfill so the issue generally and a lot of these we've found this is the case is not necessarily that the challenge here is the cost of recycling these products the challenge is going to be and it's probably gonna be a little difficult and we're gonna have to work with developers to to manage it is how are they managing managing these materials on site how are they setting up the different dumpsters making sure that contractors and subcontractors are actually putting the right material so they don't contaminate the waste in one you know and facilitating the fact that now instead of throwing this all into one big dumpster they've got to sort it on site so it's more of probably a logistical challenge and any expenses that might be incurred or probably from that process of having resizing their dumpsters to be appropriate now that they're spreading their waste across  various various containers okay do we know how other cities are handling this or is this in other cities this is in other cities i have here somewhere a list of some of the other cities that have these in colorado both boulder and fort collins have ordinances and ours is very similar what we're proposing is very similar to fort collins we were able to speak with them quite a bit to get their experiences but milwaukee wisconsin seattle washington portland austin texas i've got a list here  county washington cook county illinois evanston illinois madison wisconsin so i've got quite a quite a list here that we can share of cities that are requiring construction and demolition waste and what we're proposing is really kind of a an entryway into that some of them are very robust and have like diversion metric requirements saying you must divert eighty percent of your waste and they don't care how you do it we thought that would be a little more challenging we thought let's identify the waste streams that we know make up a big percentage of the waste and that we know there's an outlet and we think are affordable and let's start there because i agree with the intent as far as recycling but what i am hearing at this point almost on a weekly basis is the difficulty in getting permits in our city and how hard it is for contractors to actually build in the city of liquid and i just i am not real comfortable with going forward on this gutwein go ahead thank you so that's first of all really helpful thank you very much my question is so like you mentioned this is gonna take be somewhat of a learning curve because it's go be doing things a new way how can we assist the community as they adjust like our building community and contract i mean i think that's a really key component how we can be successful you're speaking about the construction and demolition ways so the concept is that we will require a plan a waste management plan at the point of a permit so they'll identify where on site they're gonna collect these items that we've identified assuming you know for those that they will be generating as waste and then when they're done they'll basically turn in receipts that say that they took those those things to the dump are to the to be recycled appropriately but i think what's important is that we make sure that we have available to them all of the potential places they could take this you know a set of resources so here's you know where you can dispose of all of these appropriately the university of colorado boulder actually has an incredible website dedicated to this where has every you can search by material and has all the recyclers in the state and they keep that up to date so that's a starting spot for us that we use to to event this this concept in the first place and then i think we' probably need to treat this very gently i mean i think there's gonna be challenges we know that and i think this needs to be a well i think we anticipate taking a very cooperative approach why is this hard getting feedback from the contractors that are doing this i don't think our inten we talked about the readiness for both the electrical vehicles and the solar would that also include i know you said have space on the roof and a place in the garage does that mean also running the wires to the electrical box or is it just having a space in the box for whatever voltage would be required what are you two separate answers i believe if we're talking the solar or if we're talking the electric vehicle and i am asking both of those questions so so i believe with the the solar it's just a space there's no actually pre wires required just thank you behind me here with the electric vehicle infrastructure it's a little more complicated so on a single family home or a townhome or anything building its own garage that will be pre wired to be ready just a pathway or conduit not not actually the pre wire so the box itself wouldn't have to be live it's just that you want the wire run in the conduit and ready to go should they decide that they want to do that it's actually space in the box to add a new circuit and then a conduit between the garage and the main panel not not necessarily the wire in the conduit okay thank you it and that's for the garage piece and then on a larger development the requirement will be to will basically the intent is to relay back to the zoning ordinance and so we also are examining parking requirements and looking at what kind of requirements might be appropriate for electric vehicles in a zoning ordinance and then if it's required to have a certain number of spaces and a larger development b evie ready that would trigger the building code requirement thank you and we do have those costs to that basically it's it's you know a third of the price to do this ahead of time and to retrofit so surface parking space might be a thousand to two thousand dollars a spot to wire ahead of time and three to five thousand dollars to go back and put that infrastructure in place thank you kelso johnson there's quite a few folks lined up so let's okay thank you to designate and authorize wavering you're reducing fees and i think we really need to take another look at this the public perception on that could be favoritism and  i don't want to see you put in that position kathy i think that's something that we should be pulling from this i'm not comfortable with that could you show us where i'm sorry it's actually page two in the blue line version  okay and then more on page nine we've got there's language in there talking about governmental entities exempt from fees and i'm just curious since the colorado coalition for the homeless is is pretty heavy on our thoughts right now if they don't have fees to build there'd be on government land or you're going to have to talk with me on this one number one how do we know what people are building and if it fits in a neighborhood if i may answer that the lakewood building code does not apply to federal buildings state buildings and public school buildings either primary or secondary public school buildings that's the point it doesn't apply to it it does not apply so they those those buildings are built under the state building code or a federal building code that is similar to the published code okay how does lakewood know then if a governmental entity is building something on their property how does that fit in our neighborhood and do we get government or do we get community input then i mean maybe i may not have any say if any other governmental entity is building something perhaps i can help clarify a little bit please when ann said that it doesn't apply that's not because we've excluded it from the code that's because other laws don't allow us to include it in the code so it's it's not available to the city of lakewood to regulate those kinds of facilities it's simply not something we have the option to do on the federal center property where the where the real estate is owned by the federal government  we also do not have any jurisdiction zoning codes however do apply on throughout the city of lakewood so that deals with use with the exception of property that is still federally owned on the federal school wanted to build something new on land do we have any input into that at all no there is a state statute dealing with public school construction and the separate one for charter school construction that generally requires a planning commission to take a look at the plans as i recall it's been a while since if i don't look at that but and then make recommendations for changes but ultimately the school district has the final say as to whether to make those changes or not the school board would review the recommendations of the city planning commission and decide whether to implement them if that's that's specific to public schools and not to any of the other uses we're talking about and just because lakewood high is high on our list of visibility right now when it was rebuilt the orientation on that property was changed which is actually one of the puzzles of what's creating some of the problems on that land so i was just curious about that on page eleven we've got that if there is emergency work done or and the contractor goes ahead and does something in an emergent type way and didn't pull a permit that if he doesn't get the permit by the next day that we suspend or revoke the contractor's registration and permit fee is doubled is that new or is that talked to me about that that and how many times has that happened this is a permanent exemption that has been in our local amendments for many many years if a safe a water heater fails on a saturday the contractor is not able  to permit right so we require them to get a permit on the following business day which would be monday if they don't it's the same as any other work without a permit then there's an investigation fee and it essentially is a double permit fee but we we do issue a lot of permits for furnaces and hot water heaters after the fact because they're done overnight or over weekend or over a holiday yeah that's exactly what i was thinking how many times has it happened that somebody has failed to actually pull a permit immediately as soon as they could and is that something that we're actually finding happens a trend there well it's it's something that we may not necessarily know about if someone's replaced a hot water heater over the weekend and and we have no knowledge of it we just don't have any statistics that with that kind of information in a way it's not even enforceable in some cases we know about it and it is enforceable but this this would be onerous to require a contractor to get a permit on a friday night when there's no ability to get a permit i agree okay on page twelve there is language in there of temporary occupancy and then it's it says the final inspections have been met those don't seem to go together you've got a temporary occupancy but you've gotten a final inspection what is i don't understand that in some cases the building is finished and the building inspectors have completed all the final inspections but there may be some site improvements that are not quite finished and we don't want to hold up occupancy so we issue a temporary certificate of occupancy and then we track the remaining work to be done and when that's complete will convert the temporary certificate of occupancy to a final and you've already been  asked about the shower waste do other cities also have this kind of language where you have to have a specific diameter for outlet in a shower is this something that lakewood is doing a loner because when i read that it just seemed like it jumped out at you well i don't have the exact number of other cities that may do that but certainly there are some cities that do and a lot of its based on best practices okay code the codes aren't perfect right so and a lot of its based on this this one is not but some of its based on regional criteria but this one's based on best practices and what we feel works best okay and other cities do do it but i'm sorry i don't have that information exactly which one's okay thank you on page twenty two there was language that says that we provide flexibility to permit use of determined approaches to achieve compliance i love that i thought that we had a very nice ring to it the way it was stated and i just wanted to say that  let's see and this actually is for bruce again just because like what high school is kind of on our radar right now on page forty actually it was talking about vehicles and having an unobstructed width not less than twenty four feet and talking about a turning radius there's interest in having one way streets next to lakewood high the streets are quite narrow i was there one time and took pictures with cars actually on both sides and a trash truck coming down and literally there was this much space between the car and the trash truck have has any consideration been given to this regarding lakewood high and how it would apply to that at least it's something i think we should be thinking about one of the commitments we did make during the discussion last week about lakewood high school and the potential one way idea was to collaborate with a fire district and that hasn't happened yet the collaboration hasn't happened yet but we certainly will involve the fire marshal in that discussion this is some language that maybe we should you know be talking about at that time thank you oh one more question on page forty seven it says you need a permit for different things and then it has crossed off screen doors and storm doors or that you don't need permits for and then these were crossed off does that mean we now need to have a permit for screen doors and storm doors that amendment when read without the redline means that you do not need permits for replacement windows essentially we used to have a we now have a requirement for replacement windows in order to meet the energy code but we're finding that  you can't buy a replacement window that doesn't meet the code so we're no longer requiring a permit for replacement windows and for the screen doors and storm doors do we need permits though that was always a court that was always in amendment as an as a not requiring a permit so it's just all doors and windows now that do not require permits thank you okay councillor harrison you've been up for a while and then skilling gutwein lover and vincent for this first round all right thank you very much for all that you're doing on the screening committee a couple of weeks ago when we were interviewing candidates for board of appeals one of the things that we were told is that we need to update our codes so hallelujah were doing exactly what they've been telling us so thank you very much my questions would be this was this actually came from a constituent this summer when in the middle of the hail repair he was really surprised that we didn't have a mid roof inspection that's what he called it and i'm not sure i really understood it at the time but he said in in the in the east before a roof could be completed they wanted to have a mid roof inspection and he said he felt like some of his roofing was substandard but he didn't know for sure i mean not the what would it be the wood that you put down yeah the the osb thank you i'm learning language here so i passed that along that that may be something that we want to consider it would probably take more people or it may be an optional inspection that a homeowner could ask for so then the other thing now i'm going to put my insurance agent hat on for just a minute i believe we may see increased homeowners costs with a sprinkler system and here's why mister crawle we've seen in other places now i the way you described it where the the technology just goes over the fire right now sounds wonderful but in the past when sprinkler systems have been installed in homes there's as much damage from the sprinkler system as there was from the fire to the personal property now people got out of their life and i'm not discounting that i'm just giving you what the insurance company sees as the losses so that may be a piece that we want to do a little bit more research on before we hang for that another constituent would love to have the ability to put turbines for a lack of a better way dave here's your turbine farm on his roof just giving you what and he wants it horizontal i i'm just telling you what they want okay so let me questions i'm it that actually maybe a combination of zoning code allowance as i don't think that there's anything the building permit that or the building code that would prohibit that a turbine yes okay thank you okay i just want to get these answered and then the only other thing that i was concerned about is when we were talking about recycling of a building number one we're having a hard time finding a slash facility let alone another place that we would be able to put that even though i love that idea i think there's going to be a real cost attached to that and i'm not sure how to solve that i like the idea but i'm not sure we have the answer yet thank you yes if the two thousand and fifteen i codes and the two thousand and seventeen electric code or our adopted they will be in place on till the next code cycle the two thousand and eighteen i codes are out they've been published and we'll start evaluating them go through that same process and be ready to adopt the two thousand and eighteen codes and another eighteen to twenty four months that was my exact follow up questions so thank you for that and the only other question i had just quickly was is there such a thing as  being sprinkler ready so halfway in between so he talked about i mean obviously ripping out ceilings and going into water lines and all that on a retro is difficult but is there anything you could possibly do to meet like halfway for example where the water is coming in or adding an extra coupling or something that you can make it sprinkler ready was that talked about with all your groups that never came up i don't know  it's probably possible to do some of the plumbing although i i don't know for sure the whole residential sprinkler design needs to be compatible with the house so i'm not sure that we can do just a blanket readiness like we can with solar or electric vehicle charging and then each water provider would have to agree to how that system is going to work for that house so i think we would need more design than may be practicable for that there's good wine thank you i'm most of my questions were already answered but just briefly i want to make sure that i understand what councillor harrison was just asking about if believe concrete asphalt metal materials reused will be donated reused or recycled i'm on page eight of the ordinance and then all remaining materials such as doors windows cabinets and fixtures will be recycled so it doesn't include organic yard waste which is the or tree limbs which is the slash concern so i'm not sure i have an answer to that particular facility but all of these materials we've vetted to make sure there are local in back to being serious um my last question is just do other communities in the denver metro area waive the sprinkler  they do as a matter of fact there's only a handful that have required sprinklers less than six probably in the whole state that i'm aware of okay at this time okay thank you i don't think i have any questions except for could we get another example other than seattle i guess i'm kind of apoplectic here that seattle that gets four hours of sun year has a solar requirement and we have i like that one thank you for the record that he said phoenix mister libby r are there what give me an example the cities that have requirements for sprinklers in colorado okay there's just not many in the in this area golden and and westminster i know rapaho county passed an ordinance that made it a an option but it wasn't it wasn't mandatory so a there's an option that the builder had to provide also purpose it by saying i just think it'd be helpful if we had some sort of cost benefit analysis on some of these building codes and what i mean by that is just what are some of the benefits we can expect to receive from having these updated building codes other than just the regulatory side where you know we're updating our codes to meet compliance issues i'm just wondering about you know their benefits to air quality we've their benefits as it relates to water pollution or their benefits to relate to you know landfill use and i know we touched on some of that today but i just want to mention it in part because dirty secret of mine is i was born in port arthur texas and i know i shouldn't be admitting that but today you can still buy a house there for about twenty five to fifty thousand dollars and it's pretty remarkable but i don't know anybody who would want to buy a house there in part they for example it was in the new york times recently they identify that area as cancer alley and that's because there are a ton of refineries around there there isn't a whole lot of regulatory infrastructure there and the port  neches river which is right next door to it which is i remember taking some boat rides up and down that quite frequently in my youth is also superfund sites so if i'm a little strange that could be why anyway i just want to throw that out there so i am curious as some of the benefits that we could be seeing from this as well anyway thanks thank you all right so that exhausts the questions and the recommendation  is to move forward and i certainly will be interested in seeing the board of adjustment i mean there are truly experts in this field so i look forward to seeing their recommendation coming forward and i think there's clear consensus to bring this  and just keep in mind as we continue to look at this that this is citywide not you know specific to certain areas or neighborhoods this this takes in account all of our city so um there you next up item five is a some education this came from some council comments last year as well as concerns that i think related to traffic noise and motorcycles and a request was made a better understanding how we deal with noise and noise associated issues and again i would like to welcome m we are a paperless council most of our building plans examiner's do use online versions of those documents so you don't have as many copies as some might think thank you mayor again jay hutchison director of public works new topic and this is not routine this is unusual consultant who will make a large portion of the presentation this evening but i'll start there been a number of types of noise that have been discussed over the last probably a couple of years and and you've heard public comment on some of those some of you probably have not heard public comment on but we've received comments in other ways so tonight is an educational session we don't have a recommendation although if asked i might suggest one but we'll get to that later the real question here is is this does the city council want to revise the noise ordinance and if so are there particular components of the noise ordinance that you'd like to revise and i'll describe the noise ordinance here in a minute and we'll come back to it a little bit later an outline of it or some of its major features was included in your packet if the city council chooses to proceed with some consideration of or reconsideration a part of the noise ordinance then we'll probably meet well we will need to provide another study session where we can talk about that specifically we're not going to go into that level of depth on any of these items tonight to where a new ordinance could be discussed with specificity let me let me start by giving you a little bit of information about who's been involved in this process the there has been a multi departmental team there representatives from each of these groups that are stood here in the room tonight although i didn't look around so i'm trusting that that's the case i'm pretty sure it is and then mister surgeon is the acoustical acoustical expert that'll visit with you here in just a few minutes me spend a little bit of time on the existing ordinance so you have kind of a foundation to work from as we go into this broader discussion this is not an ordinance that's structured around how many decibels different kinds of sound can produce and still be legal in the city of lakewood in fact there are no decibel limitations in this ordinance no i'll talk a little bit about why here in just a minute that's certainly an option for some types of noise a little more practical with some than others and i'll touch on that as well the first area that i want to talk about is a real objective measure that's within the noise ordinance and that or that is time limitations it's easy to tell with if you're within the time limit or not for making noises such as picking up trash three hundred feet from a hotel or running power equipment in the middle of the night so these time limitations are very effective they're easily administered it's clear when they've been violated and they're used for a variety of purposes i won't go into much more detail than that right now the second area is a couple of subjective components and these are just that they're subjective it requires someone to assess the reasonableness of a noise i think back to noise issues in college which were fairly frequent same thing happens in neighborhoods when one person may be having a party on a friday night that goes longer than their neighbor cares to to enjoy and consequently they will call the police department who will deal with both neighbors and determine whether or not it's reasonable and and try to get it to back to a reasonable level those are judgment calls and that's the way the ordinance is structured today there are some some a somewhat more objective component on mufflers and that is that they can't be modified in certain ways but there's also a reasonableness standard applied to mufflers and that that would be specific vehicle implementation which of course requires somebody to be there when the vehicle is being used in a way that exceeds what's reasonable there are also some exemption provisions in the ordinance which proved to be pretty effective and not to generate much consternation a good example of this might be paving wodsworth boulevard to pave that during the daytime would be incredibly difficult for the contractor but even more difficult for the traveling public so we often provide exemptions for nighttime construction work there consideration of what the land uses are in the area there's notification requirements ahead of time so people know what's going to happen which by the way is is usually the most effective way to keep complaints down is because people understand these things once they know they're going to happen so we try to do that kind of thing ahead and of course you see those in the friday i think it's in the friday reports that we report when those exemptions are provided and they're all temporary with the exception of snow plowing where we have a permanent exemption for our own staff to plow snow on the streets in the middle of the night this discussion tonight will follow this kind of an outline you'll hear from mister surgeon about some noise basics how humans interact with noise out of how humans hear noise what the effects are how they're measured and then we'll talk a little bit about noise complaints in lakewood will mostly focus on the complaints that have come in through the lakewood request system because they're documented we can recreate that data clearly we get complaints in other ways as well phone calls may come in or other kinds of things but that's a good documented way at least to give some scale to the number and types of complaints that we get you'll see that for a four year period so it's a fairly sizable data sample we'll give some examples of noise criteria that can be used we'll talk a little bit about noise barriers and this is noise attenuation that's associated with major roadways you can see some noise barriers along parts of th avenue particularly west of sheridan but there are other areas they can be considered with the wodsworth and and th avenue project there will be noise barriers installed and mister surgeon working for a different entity was the the consultant that design and he'll talk about that a little more extensively he will also look at the rooney valley and talk about the effects of alameda on the neighboring properties because that's an arterial street that has had more traffic growth and most of the arterial streets in recent years and so that'll be an example of your in stores well not in the same level of detail but i think it enough to to provide some basic information and under and better understanding of the value the costs and the the factors associated with noise barriers along major roadways with that i will conclude my introductory comments and i'll come back up after mister surgeon speaks but he is a senior acoustical consultant with hankered environmental he's done noise studies throughout colorado he's worked for private entities he's worked for public entities he's worked on major transportation projects he's done professional witness work and the courts so his his his experience is very broad and i think it's been very effective as we've worked through this and hopefully you'll find that to be the case as well mister surgeon thank you if you have two sources and you add them together into both eighty decibels you only go up by three decibels you're not gonna go up to one hundred and sixty it's kind of same kind of thing if you add up three the same no one goes eighty five you add up for the same thing goes eighty six another interesting part about noises that three decimal change so through testing and studies and all that sort of thing they've come to the everybody's come to the agreement that a three decimal change is just percepti if you so everybody you know you talk about a project and you say so you do a traffic study and then the the concern is about noise increasing due to that the traffic increase over a thirty year  period a lot of times we'll see that traffic go up tempered ten percent twenty percent thirty percent to get that three decimal change you're looking at doubling the traffic so that's what we're required so that's how the kind of sensitivity of noise and then this this kind of gives you an idea of the sound levels i'm sure you've seen a bunch of these before in the past but one thing taking note on these is that a couple things one is every time you look at a sound pressure level you also want to get a distance as well because that's important and then also you'll see this is in db a a weight it'll talk about that in a second and then also kind of shown here as well it's kind of some of the more popular or well known limits so for c dot they do it an hourly sixty six dba for traffic noise to consider a noise barrier for a lot of cities and counties and states they look at a more common date time limit of fifty five dba and a common night time limit of fifty dba that's more instantaneous so that would that would be more that occur right away didn't it's not an hourly average or anything like that and then if you look at the world health organization they have this ultimate nighttime goal outside goal of forty dba and they say that if you have that that means that your sleeps gonna be good you're not going to have heart problems that's where they've come to their all their studies so like i talked about before was you know what is a weights a weighted sound  so a lot of times you'll see on tv they'll they'll show i didn't i showed yesterday on like some basketball games look like a hundred and ten decibels well that's the it's flat they're not that's not hundred and ten dba there's way  is one thing that's a little different but you are more sensitive to the the higher frequency sounds so that that is how if you look at like looking at this if i say if i told you something was eighty db a flat well it could be more like seventy d these are the complaints that were just logged from two thousand and fourteen two thousand and seventeen through the internet so this was this is done does not include the police department complaints they have a separate so you can kind of see how animals is a big one and then  an idea of where the complaints are coming from and there are some hotspots i don't know who's where but sharon and then here you can see i'm kind of missing a few and i left my gaps in there kind of show you that i tried to get more information from some municipalities but it was either they didn't know where to get the information or they sent me back and forth of different ones or they wouldn't get back to me and times and that sort of thing you look at something like loveland who has a pretty well defined ordinance and also a way to enforce it they have a little bit lower now with all that said for sure where all these numbers came from i mean you guys have this online system and a police department system i sometimes they told me it was a police department sometimes they told me and it was online i don't know exactly what i was getting so take these with a grain of salt but it kind of does show that you guys aren't there's no big outl here that's kind of what to take from that a couple of some examples i kind of focused on traffic noise examples because that seen any kind of a driver if i went into all the other examples we'd be here a long time thresholds the epa environmental protection agency says fifty five dba is is what they like for outside state of colorado is fifty five db a day and fifty fifty db at night you'll see that all over the country see does sixty six dba that's the loudest hour from traffic only not just go out there in a car drives by and you say it's over sixty six i need a wall and then hud does it it says twenty four hour twenty four hour average but it's actually i believe it's a twenty four hour  at night so that's another long average and then the world health organization i mentioned before is forty but again it's a night time and that's over a whole year so and that's there's a lot of measuring and then what you'll see in some other ones they'll do is now i'm getting to the traffic noise examples i was talking about we're gonna go through two of them it's very brief the first one being us six which you guys are all very familiar with the study areas east of garrison it's i highlighted there and this is the kind of typical wall you'll see along a that kind of highway you know up to twenty foot is what c dot does they won't go any taller that they'll consider anything over twenty foot to be infeasible this is what we have to do so if if this the city of lakewood was to require developer or something to do this this is gonna require them now to go out and hire a traffic noise person to do this traffic noise model which is a federal  looking at if you see all the dots those are going to be receptors or residences representing a house all the black lines will be traffic or you know roads and then all the red are gonna be barriers whether they're existing or proposed future ones so we'll do this model we'll put in traffic volumes and put in future traffic volumes in thirty years we'll come up with noise levels and you'll see just kind of looking at this real quick you'll see we with no walls we're hitting seventy two sixty eight those are over sixty six ahead and model the walls and build them up to certain heights in this case we went to fifteen feet i believe here and you can see we're getting eight decibels reduction down below you've seen nine seven six a goal is usually ten nine and eight and seven are really good cdot now when they're in their most recent revision they're gonna require at least a seven decimal reduction at one impacted receptor so they have limits to what you can do to get it to get a noise well it's not it's again it's not just hit sixty six to get a wall because cidade does have their feasibility and reasonable assessment i'm not gonna go into this and very much depth but i will say that feasibility when you first look at something before even look at the reasonableness you you want to see if you're even getting five of noise reduction and then are there any safety or maintenance issues like shit shade in the road there's a me ice all over the road can it physically be constructed or yet you know issues water table who knows and if that all looks good you move on to reasonableness and then then you really guess  seven if that's possible at one of the impacted receptors and then there's this whole cost benefit equation we're refactoring and how many people are benefiting how much noise reductions being achieved and then what's that what's that gonna cost using a unit cost at cdot has it's not necessarily what really gonna cost but it's just more of a value that they came up with to judge all these walls so in conclusion on this one we ended up with fifteen foot tall walls woz worth the garrison north and south sides of us six we did a fifteen foot tall wall on the eastbound ramp onto us six and then we varied some eight foot to fifteen foot tall walls and those were all approved all cost benefit everything looked good and there in the project so they will happen and as soon as that happens in that kind of project they are agreed to they have to happen after at that point so now looking more local looking at alameda noise analysis we i know you guys had a conversation last year about this exact spot so we figured we'd pick it into a sample quite sure so we did an analysis on it i went ahead and i put in some some artificial kind of future traffic volumes and imp did some predictions oh i'm sorry for here's a noise typical noise berm you could harley goes by so then what we did i went ahead and built up a couple berms here's some couple potential berms eight foot tall let's see what happens so you can see in the residence we really don't get anything and that's not that's not surprising at all  sixes in there but overall you look at this you know if seedot looked at this they'd be like that's that's not gonna cut it for their reasonableness i did not actually go in and do that calculation but just looking at it i'm pretty sure and so that's where we kind of end up that's what the twenty foot tall barrier like this is a really complicated busy slide but i kinda just wanted to show if you if you kind of look at like the seedot reduction requirement and kind of see that look we're only getting you know one location that park isn't really even hitting it housing and people a lot more a lot closer together so in conclusion there you know there's really no perceptible benefit in there any of the residential areas thirteen and twenty foot tall barriers are pretty much all that you're really seeing any kind of a reduction you know significant reduction in the park and then you look at a burn footprint because he usually got it you have to maintain these burns you want to mow him and so you got to have a you can only so much slope to him so you get a very large footprint for a twenty foot tall at one hundred feet wide so then going kind of back to the noise ordinances you know there's there's the subject of noise ordinance where it's pretty much it says in there don't be unreasonable leave it to the police officers to make their judgment call leave leave it to  five dba tonight and in now you have to enforce that now you're pulling out noise meters or you're having a consultant come in and tell you that a development it's not going to exceed any of those with any of their equipment or their planned uses and then you can have the hybrid ordinance where you kind of you know numeric volume limitations they have all these limits and these are great because it's again easy to enforce doesn't take anybody with a meter and a whole lot of knowledge a noise to deal with it and then you have the subject with the exemptions i actually did do one for i've done a couple actually four were it was on one side was lakewood other side was denver denver has a very complex way to get a nighttime noise ordinance measurements in during the night it requires submitting reports each week and it also requires going before the board of environmental health and getting a approval for such a nighttime noise range so whereas lakewood it was writing a letter to the city and explaining what you're doing and then letting them know and they were is that's it so it is a lot easier process a lot less cost  this is like a this is an example the city of loveland i've done a bit of work in there there further for their ordinance the traffic noise is exempt other some other ordinances but they may include traffic ordinance or may include the traffic in the ordinance  but this is kind of this is a typical one it works pretty well they do have staff that will go out and measure they do have requirements for to submit a noise study with a plan development to ensure that you're not going to exceed so if with lakewood considering this you'd have to consider you know how you're going to enforce it who's going to do it you have to train the people how to do it you'd have to also get the proper noise measurement equipment and then figure out how you're going to prosecute are you know what kind of fees fine you're going to put on it and then any of all the exemptions of grandfathering your variances that you might want to include and then with that thank you i want to talk just a little bit about our request to you and that is to seek some guidance on whether or not you want to move forward with additional discussion regarding the noise ordinance and if so what components and i've listed three items here that might be topics for a future study session if you choose only because those are the ones that we've heard more about you saw the long list of different types of noise complaints most of those we haven't heard much about so i narrowed it down to two three that seemed to be of greater interest and i'll walk through each of those individually the first one is individual vehicle noise you may remember loud motorcycles as the example in different areas of town thirteen percent of the complaints over those four years that translates to a total number of complaints of about ten per year one of the challenges of course with this is that you have to be there when it happens and that's that's very difficult to do currently it's an unreasonableness standard or reasonable s standard plus the limitation on modifications to the muffler system a numeric standard of some sort a decibel standard for any kind of noise at being added to the noise ordinance would require the kinds of things that mister surgeon mentioned we'd have to have the equipment we'd have to train the people we'd have to have the people who are trained with the equipment available when the noises are happening it's a little more complex than using a reasonableness standard but it's possible as you saw in the level and ordinance example so that's one that perhaps you want to consider because you've heard more of those kinds of complaints than some of the others the second one is the arterial road noise and this is the constant noise this isn't a single vehicle kind of a thing it's the kind of situation that mister surgeon mentioned where to get the three decibel increase which is what's necessary for it to be perceptible you have to double the traffic volume it's about two percent of the complaints which translates to about two per year on the liquid request system and one of the key features of this is it's a it's essentially a retrofit program liquid doesn't have many new arterial streets yet to be built there's a little bit in the runi valley but not much most of that's even built at this so this would probably be publicly funded projects if you began to think about which roads are the loudest you could probably start with th avenue and then look at two hundred and eighty five and wodsworth and kipling and parts of alameda and and other roads as well but for this discussion i just talked about arterial streets the higher volume roadways they're probably the ones that might draw the most attention i use ninety nine percent as being the the percentage that's already built out of all the arterial roadways that will ever be in lakewood it may be a little bit higher than that but i couldn't say a hundred so because it's not quite done there's probably twenty eight to thirty miles of arterial streets that are next to residential properties of course many arterial streets have commercial properties along them we're putting up walls would be counterproductive and vallee hundreds of feet from the roadway the they also have another issue if if this doorway over here was open right now and somebody was doing something on the other side and it became distracting somebody would probably get up and shut the door because it reduces the noise on arterial streets you have crossing streets you have driveways all of those things essentially create a permanent opening in the wall and as mister surgeon talked about that one location in the in the park in the rooney valley has an opening and so the the decibel level is higher because the more noise can come through there when you begin to think about all the arterial streets and all of lakewood many of those have many gaps and so it would be a process of looking to identify which locations might make the most sense there's some wall cost information here on the bottom of the slide and it's kind of open ended partly because the aesthetics of the wall translate to money on the very low end basic flat no color wall maybe thirty dollars a square foot so one square foot of the face of the wall so if it's a fifteen foot high wall then it's four hundred and fifty feet or four hundred and fifty dollars to make one lineal foot of the wall construction so those numbers translate to something like eighty to one hundred million dollars if the full thirty miles were constructed it's a big number and doing even less while it would still be less expensive than one hundred million dollars it's still going to be substantial some of the factors that that are worth considering here is is the problem how big is the problem how frequent is the problem how much do people expect the problem how much is it going to grow but also the effectiveness of the walls this is where the gaps that would be necessary into play these are also a dividing device in a community what about the appearance how does it make you feel driving down the road how does it make you feel if and you're in the neighborhood with these walls along along the side of your in appearance i mentioned can change the costs in addition to the initial cost there's always some maintenance cost most of that maintenance costs depending on the material used is probably dealing with graffiti for decades and no other costs is what i mean not that the rafidhi would come up routinely but it will come up occasionally but concrete walls tend to not need much maintenance other than that kind of surface maintenance so a lot of things that could be considered if this is an area of further interest mister surgeon mentioned that out in the rooney valley it took a twenty foot tall wall to have much effect in the park and even that didn't have enough effect in the residential area to matter and just to put that in perspective from where you're sitting from where your feet are to the ceiling directly above you is half that height so that's ten feet so a twenty foot wall would be twice that distance it's pretty substantial let me go on to the third situation that i suggested might be worth discussing and that's sports activity noise this comes in a lot of different versions it's it's an inherent aspect of community recreation that's outdoors and a lot of our recreation facilities are outdoors there's ballparks there's ball fields there's play fields there's all kinds of things playgrounds for the younger kids and some of those are in residential areas because they serve residential people people from their homes can walk to the to the recreational facility so there's a reason for that but they do make some noise  pickleball was one of the examples that we used one location where there's a complaint i think it may be limited to one individual near that one location but i can't say that with certainty but there's not a standard related to outdoor recreation noise and and yet it's something we hear about so with the concluding slide i just want to offer five different alternatives for whatever guidance you give us tonight and i'm sure there are others that's why the fifth one is other the first one is none and and if if i were to make a recommendation i guess if i talked like that i am actually aren't i i would give consume serious thought to none we do have noise problems we do have noise complaints the solutions aren't easy the noise complaints that are more common like the the arterial roadway nose we'll make some progress with the wodsworth and th avenue interchange because those walls that mister surgeon talked about in that location are a requirement of that construction project it just hasn't been built yet so that's one option the individual vehicle noise i mentioned the arterial roadways noise we talked about sports activities we talked about and any other individual circumstance or combination could also be a discussion point as well so i'm leaving this very broad because we're here to look for for some guidance on where to go next which will necessitate another study session geared more deeply and specifically to any particular area that you might be interested in with that the presentation concludes great well done thank you mister surgeon you might there might be some questions for you in fact i think my first one start with you and that has to do with technology in the use of technology to offset and i had heard years ago that cdot was looking at alternatives to sound walls to actually trying to find noise calming devices or different materials so my question is how far are they along on that and then the second part is unlike traffic on like a sixth avenue is it the tires on the road is that the engine is that the exhaust what's creating the most noise as far as technology goes so we actually did do a study for cdot over several years measuring different concrete's different timing different asphalt's well actually in the one of the big studies was in colorado springs they were using different open graded asphalt that sort of thing so we went down and did a number of measurements and we would put down we'd measure before with the bad asphalt we've measured with the brand new open gra asphalt we get a reduction and then we come back a year later two years later three years later about three years later that all that reduction goes all the reduction goes away other things with noise walls is going to be like the sound absorbing materials that they'll put on the inside sometimes they have to do that thank you and then what was you had another question about oh the noise sources and noise sources it's it's it's a it's tire road interactions probably number one depending on the vehicle and then engine and exhaust but all kinds of it's all it's all three though so question probably be from mister cox there was part of the slide it said if you tie a violation to a decibel reading that you're going to have to have trained officers and devices it also would seem to me what it seemed to you and they put an informal question was it seem to you that going to court and saying well this noise is unreasonable and the plaintiffs attorneys say it says define unreasonable you might have a would it be your opinion you might have a  on the objective side you need the training you need the equipment you need to stay current on that equipment you need to use it right and you need to have some locational requirements so that you can determine the sound and the decibel level from a particular point on the ground and it's gonna be quite different from somebody else's perspective so i think that's where the subjective standards come into play so reasonable i agree with that and for there are devices that are easy to read for sure one of the issues you run into though is that somebody will go out and use it and if they have the improper windscreen on it they're gonna read a high level they don't have a windscreen on it they're gonna read a high level if they have the setting down actually log that level an average that level and give you more of an average level it all kind of comes in a lot of ordnance don't even specify that though some of them will say one horse and we'll say one minute some will say i'm familiar with  level and the location being the edge of a property it would seem to me even if you have a somewhat variable accuracy rate or a margin of error for the device that it would be a lot easier to prove than say well i noticed one of your examples of a high level of complaints bridge wheatridge the last i heard their ordinance said if there's a complaint then that's evidence that it exists that the noise level was too high wouldn't that be kind of a difficult stretch to prosecute yeah no i completely agree i was actually just at a boar of environmental health in denver hearing and it was actually had a thing coming the other way where they went and measured a it was a day someone applied for a noise variance request they got through they got the noise variance they had their concert the the hearing officer went out and took measurements they were over the limit they are over limited a few times and then they got cited  they fought it they won they did not have to pay a fine and then the board of health came back and said no nobody has to complain if they're over the limit they're over the limit so i've seen it both ways okay thank you  i noticed that in some of our ordinances governments are also held to a standard times for instance bell chimes it's there's a violation and it applies to any church clock or school a lot of we've we've been having some complaints that from school sports fields the number of complaints seemed to have risen when they started using omnidirectional speakers and a case like that for instance the walmart down the street from me how to speak her out on the side of the building pointed straight down th avenue and you could hear every  could hear at my house which is three hundred yards away or two hundred yards away you could hear it better than you could on sight so would it be feasible to require directional speakers that could be kind of direct the sound away from  yeah that's that's that's pretty common again that i will fall toward not having an objective ordinance though because like in somewhere like loveland where we actually went in specified that they will have to you know you have to meet the limit at the at the  property line so instead of using one large speaker use a bunch of smaller speakers and you in their directional and that way you're getting the noise where it needs to be and you're not having to pump as much power through those speakers so it's totally doable they just didn't have any requirement to do that i would fall i'd look at the planning staff you know there would be something they would have to catch i think still let you guys know like that's a thing i believe mister cox my reference to the government thing of school i believe that it's your opinion is it not that we could include governments in the noise ordinance if we had a decibel level at property line or any other regulation you know i'm hesitant to comment on that just because i haven't looked at that specifically we've talked in other contexts about the applicability of our laws to other government entities but i haven't looked at that specifically as to as would apply to noise we certainly can okay we certainly can include we can look into it further well we do already have this that says schools can have loud times between certain hours right so if we can include them there it seems like we could include them and other governments elsewhere i presume that to be valid but i'm just saying i can't explain why we would have why there'd be a difference in applicability between different kinds of regulations okay  and mister surgeon the we now have a three hundred foot limit for garbage trucks between the hours of seven zero and ten  signal on a garbage truck or having trucks being unloaded and leaving they're pulling away from the trailer and making a lot of noise is three hundred feet standard could we expend expand that i'm not sure where to three hundred feet comes from we could always look into it there will be a typical sound power level for a trash truck but you know some of those banging and clanging are tough one thing though that was actually brought about technology there are better back up alarms out there that are not as they're not tonal they're a broadband they're also ambient controlled so that if a truck behind us behind a  dump or a trash truck it's it may not be the the the signal that must be emitted is used generally ten to fifteen decibels louder than the ambient condition that and that will that's a tonal as an alarm for you and if the level is only sixty decibels behind that trash truck it's only going about seventy seventy five versus a constant hundred and seven dba pumping out every time for no reason so they're not very expensive it just hasn't been implemented in the united states a lot it's coming i mean i recommend him most for every construction project that i work on just because they aren't that expensive and they cut down on complaints i mean i personally do have a bus that backs up somewhere near my house every a m are those things that that equipment is that are they inexpensive enough that we could require their use or would it require a large expenditure on the part of say a garbage fleet to i think those things out i think they cost about one hundred and thirty dollars each ish really easy to install okay  thank you for those at home that might be curious we have a little change of seating and what we're going to do is we're just gonna because this is study session because it is recorded those who are not in the building at the particular moment can still be able to go ahead and listen we're not making any decisions tonight other than coming to consensus so what we're going to do is we're just going to keep rocking and rolling if that's this is an important topic and i think we need to go with it so guess who got to speak next that's me  so what we're going to do is my questions were to chief mccaskey chief what what i wanted to ask is in ward five some of our noise complaints that we get all the  are lots of vehicles racing on kipling and on jewel and on hamden and i know we've got some new police coming on board will they be able to be doing more nighttime patrols to catch those four that that's a good question it's all a matter of priorities i guess i know that i know that noise is an issue but i think  we constantly battle what people think our priorities and if if if it's a quiet night then obviously we can we can do that okay but if there's other  know calls for service there are a higher priority it makes it difficult so okay thank you chief i'm gonna ask a quick question does anybody in the audience have any benadryl with them in their pocket okay never mind okay sorry we're just off on the races here another way of trying to take care of the mayor so that helps a lot thank you very much and i'm not sure who was next sir so i'm just gonna guess do you know okay sharon you're up next um i would just like to offer for consideration that right now we put this on hold i was gonna recommend that right now the possibilities are none for future study sessions with the that we can come back to it i think it's an important topic but i know there's a lot of other things and we got a lot of study sessions coming i think with one of the main concerns i get is the noise along th avenue which looks like it's gonna be somewhat addressed when we get the cdot issue in which may take care of it i have no doubt that we're gonna have individual vehicle noise increases as the summer months come on with motorcycles but at this time i vote to put this on on hold for right now hey remember we're not voting but we're taking consensus tonight can i just add i just as this is my opinion only i think reducing noise through enforcement activities is is probably not a viable alternative i there's so many vehicles and there's only so many cops on the street and i just think that if  if you think enforcement's the way out of out of it to solve this problem i think we're all going to be disappointed i just don't think we have enough resources and i know motorcycle safety groups also will argue that loud pipes  say a safety issue and you know that that's probably a group that's gonna would have a have a really strong vocal opinion about enforcement of such things so and that that was part of that was part of my thing too the enforceability and where are we using our resources so i'd like to offer that for consideration beer within this discussion are we also talking about noise complaints neighbor on neighbor is that also included in this in the in the chart that had different noise complaints many of those must be related to neighbor on neighbor because it's noise from homes barking dogs those things were both in there so do we have a figure on and i they might have been in here i just kind of i think i missed it but is there also just a number on sort of calls for complaints or calls for service like that let me respond to that in a couple of ways in the in the service request system it was it's relatively limited residential music noise was fifty one complaints over four years so what's at twelve or thirteen a year and i went down from their general residential noise was a little bit less and on down in the police department from what we the data we got from the the communications center about a third of the complaints are in a general category called noise so we don't have any more distinction on those but music plus party is about half of the total that's probably neighbor to neighbor partially my fault i apologize but the party or the music both i guess so what's the number figure on that every year and i have did i miss that the people who don't use paper no this was this is four years worth of data and the total complaints through the communication center where it's about eight seven hundred so music well broken into  categories fireworks music noise and party when our officers go out to these complaints do we ticket generally just curious i don't have an answer for you counselor i mean eight thousand seven hundred complaints i maybe defer to the city attorney she would know i mean we tickets um a lot of times we get there it's that reasonably standard i mean people have different perceptions you know a loud stereo at three zero in the morning we're probably going to ticket somebody but a loud stereo at one zero in the afternoon more than likely not so it just depends and then a lot of times when we get there there if  it's an anonymous rp reporting party we get there there's it's quiet you know that's these calls aren't priority so they're very low on the priority list so a lot of times when we get there that the noise is already and they don't initially ticket they just ask the person to turn the music down if they then have to go back that same night more likely a ticket is going to be issued at that time but we do use the police officers to in the case if it is ticketed as to what they heard because we don't always have the neighbors to testify to the complaint so it's it really does depend on the situation but a lot of times the first response is not going to result in a ticket thanks my other question was uh related to the technology i know the mayor talked a little bit about it but is there any like tertiary policies you can implement  that helps facilities like lowering speeds you know more trees i don't know anything like that yes but but i can't remember the exact number but to really see an effect on know a hundred meters depth of trees and all all shapes and sizes and you'll filled in to really see any kind of measurable difference one thing you do get with trees though is out of sight out of mind so that kind of helps a little bit but you when you measure you really aren't go measure much of a difference so there is we also look at one on c dot projects we'll look at even shifting the roadway we'll look at trying to use ramps and things as barriers so you try and be smart about it but  that's kind of work that thanks that's all i have mayor i know in our ward i'm not hearing a lot of these complaints about noise well what i'm hearing are things like gunshots or loud a lot of motorcycles those kind of things and those those are enforcement issues i mean iii don't see that as something that we can you know there or there or need to address by legislation at least not this point and some of these other i mean it's complicated you sound like complicated issues there's a lot of moving parts there's a lot of pieces and i'm just not sure it warrants us using a lot of our resources right now on this thing given the you know one it's not a high priority even in reinforcements and it seems like they're handling handling it sounds like they're handling it pretty well and in two we've got a lot of them like my other co counselor says we've got a lot of other things that are important and i'm not saying this isn't but i'm not sure that some of these other things that are already in the pipeline aren't going to address a lot of the problems so maybe when we make more sense to see how those how those shake out before we launch into you know a lot of spending our resources on it at this point but the idea being coming back and looking at it down the road a little bit farther when when some of these other remedies  you know are in place that's my thought so if i might offer counsel and there's still a couple people that up but to you know we still have another important subject to discuss tonight you know maybe the option right now is just to look at better reporting you know it sounds like you know when you look at the police it's kind of a mix we don't really know and so we're only gathering one side of it so maybe we take a look in a year with some better reporting or better understanding of what those actual sound complaints are looking like or where they're from maybe that's an option and then we can come back to it  thank you mayor mister surgeon i'm i'm interested in your take on something you said that technology actually isn't there not long ago i was told about some type of  a beam if you will for lack better i thought your tech term on my side that when it's along the artery along the road the beams somehow can shine the noises and i guess towards where the tires in the asphalt are and has a way of neutralizing if you will the sound is there actually is that have you heard of that or is  that there is a thing called active noise and so we used it in aircraft and small vessels that sort of thing where it's the eat where you can actually do that out in the open in the free field it doesn't work yet it's not it's just not it's not effective on that as well but as far as like putting speakers on top of noise walls and and in shooting the noise away it's that's not a that's not an option thank you and also i'm not really sure how to even go about this because i know that you don't all have this in your in your wards but charlie and i do get considerable feedback on the speakers at lakewood high school  and during athletic events if there's some way somehow we can take a look at dealing with that since governmental entities are are not under this and are opted out i'm not sure how that works but it'd be good to figure out a way where we can help because there's so many issues in that area and they're just mounting and creating  you first i'd like to agree with the chief we don't have enough police officers for them to be out doing things like nora's ordinance violations and parking tickets for instance  need more code enforcement officers to help relieve that we'll talk about that toward budget time ah and i agree that right now this is not the most pressing issue we're facing if you're the person who's losing sleep because of th noise these noises it's very very important but in the grand scheme of what we have to look at over the next few months i think this can take a backseat so i agree that maybe we put it off for a while so with that as our consensus that we just thank you for the great information we learned a lot about sound tonight and we'll take this as a lesson learned and to cover some components of the information that you received in your packet but i'm not going to try to cover everything that was in there i don't that's necessary but i'm happy to answer questions about any of that material the foundation for this discussion is the effect of abandoned shopping carts in the community clearly they're unsightly they can interfere with pedestrian or bicycle traffic if they're on on paths can promote blight there's an expense to the the business community and their customers and  and we're trying to solve that that kind of problem the recommendation that you'll hear at the end of my presentation is a request that the council through your consensus process suggest that the ordinance come forward for final action and adoption  to get to that point i'm going to talk a little bit about goals some input that was obtained and then just outlined the ordinance fairly quickly i think let me start with goals obviously the primary goal the only reason we're really hillier here on this topic is to get the the carts picked up and that you know in my view includes returning them to the appropriate owners so that that isn't just a lost expense that then turns into an expense for the patrons as well to get there and be able to do that we need an easy reporting system we need to make it as convenient as possible for people to tell us where they are as soon as they see those so we tried to address that and we want to minimize the public expense that was a specific topic in august when the the city council discussed this topic and it also is relevant because in today's environment with the constitutional provisions any revenue generated by the program is not actually a net decrease in the cost because it's rebated because of tabor so all costs in this program to the city our net costs none of those can be recovered through the fees that i'll talk about here in a minute we do want to write i believe we want to avoid any unnecessary expenses to the businesses and their patrons and and the circumstance is very dramatic or yeah dramatically between businesses that have shopping carts some may have as few as five at a particular location some have hundreds at a particular location so their circumstances are very different the costs that have been reported to us very most of the carts seem to be in the seventy five to one hundred and fifty dollar range apiece but we've had reports up to five hundred dollars in the electric vehicles which also sometimes leave the sights and have to be retrieved are thousands of dollars so that's there's a broad range most are probably in the more like seventy five to one hundred and fifty dollars range do want to minimize i think the police burden for some of the same reasons that you just heard discussed about noise and keeping in mind that the ability to identify the perpetrator the person who stole the cart is usually very very limited the carts are usually found literally abandoned so it's difficult to identify the perpetrator one of the discussions that we've had before is about the idea of reducing theft of the carts in the first place that's something that the retailers are really focused on and after more discussions with the retailers and the retail groups i think they're probably in the best position to do that most effectively i'll talk a little bit about a couple of ideas actually i won't in the memo we talked a little bit about a couple of ideas that i'm not recommending but we could come back to if you'd like but the retailer's take a pretty aggressive stance on trying to deal with their asset protection and this is a key component of their asset protection it's been a lot of input from city council study sessions and other discussions from others in the community including retailers obviously who are the card owners and then some cart retrievers there are companies that that is their business or part of their business is to retrieve abandoned shopping cards so with that let me let me go to the actual proposed approach for the ordinance and i'm going to talk about it in three parts and i'm going to be a little redundant probably this that i'm going to start with is kind of the default probe it is the default program if nothing happened other than adoption of the current ordinance that's before you program is what would occur owners would have to register and their registration would provide the information necessary to get the carts returned back to them so we need to know how do they have their carts mark what do they want these returns those kinds of things who do we call when they have to come pick them up so that's the registration piece it's a one time thing unless something changes on behalf of the cart owners but it's something that we do on the front end of the of the program we'd beef up the request liquid system to make it easy and obvious to report abandoned carts with that would be cup would be a public a public information program to alert everybody that it's it's a reporting process on request liquid so we use all our different communication venues to encourage reporting and tell them how to do it make  it as easy as possible and as well known as possible third we would actually retrieve the abandoned cart so we'd hire a contractor whose job it would be to respond to those requests like would items and any other information they receive or an abandoned cart they happen to see while they're out collecting other carts and pick those up this is probably a place that i should take just a minute to define what the current draft ordinance means by an abandoned cart it means a cart essentially that's empty but not on the premises where it's supposed to be we've been we've had a good deal of discussion i think you did as well at last your last discussion about what do you do with carts that have personal property in those and there are significant issues associated with that with due process making sure that we don't throw away things that are invaluable to a person who owns them that happened to be in the cart and so we want to avoid that problem the second problem we want to avoid or minimize is the potential for some kind of a confrontation we're gonna hire a cart contractor who who's going to be a guy with a truck probably and not somebody who who has police training or other kinds of skills necessarily and so we don't want to create confrontations so we're primarily focused in fact the way this ordinance is designed it's exclusively focused on empty carts that are truly off by themselves and abandoned those other things are real issues but they seem to be outside of the scope of the major the major part of the costs are going to be related to several things one is hiring the cart contract or paying the cart contractor to retrieve the carts having a place to impound those the administrative part of contacting the owners having them come in making sure they pick up the right carts making sure they pay the bill those kinds of things there will be some administrative costs there will also probably be some orphan carts we have had a few that you can't identify who they belong to that's what i mean by orphan cards so we'll just have to dispose of those we won't be reimbursed for any costs associated with those and again the reimbursement is not at net value anyway one of the one of the key components that the current owners brought up was that they're concerned about a program that that could provide an incentive for a cart contract or a retrieval contractor to retrieve carts out of the owners parking lot and then return them and get paid for retrieving not stolen yet carts so that that's it and that's a challenge and it's going to take some administrative work to to address that and probably there's not a perfect answer to that so it's a simple direct approach we have a contact system we it well publicized it's an easy thing to do we have a contractor whose job it is is to follow up on that the requests would come to a city employee and the contractor directly so there's not another step in the communications in the contractor out and then there'd be reimbursement by the car owners we'd have to have an impoundment area that's the basic program the ordinance includes two options and i want to emphasize that these are not options meaning we could do a different kind of ordinance to have this kind of option these two options that i'm going to talk about are in the draft ordinance that you have before you but they don't come into effect until a card owner chooses to make them operable so this is the first option at a card owners choice they could have an agreement with the cart contractor the city's cart retrieval contractor to deliver the carts directly to the cart owner with the cart owner directly paying the contractor does a couple of things gets us out of the middle of impounding managing carts which i like it also gets us out of the cause some of the cost the retrieval costs that are attributable to that cart owners cards so there's some savings for the cart owner which should provide some financial incentive for the card owner to ask to implement this approach and it's it's likely although i i'm not prepared to say it's certain that the cart contract or the retrieval contractor would actually be paid more in total if they had a lot of cart owners asking that the retrieval contractor return the carts to that that particular owner so there's two incentives on both sides financially that would suggest this this might work really well and get the city almost out of the business of car the second option again this is in the ordinance it's not an optional ordinance it's a part of this ordinance is a proposal that's a bit a little broader and it's a little less well defined this would be an entirely alternative program so a cart owner or a consortium of cart owners could say i understand the city's ordinance but i want to do it a whole different way and we have an example of that that i'll talk about here in a minute but that would allow the city to evaluate their proposed program and say you know that's comparable or better than what we would do so go for it if it fails we'll come back to the default program that won't go away because it will have been adopted with the ordinance so in summary the the the key here is that we want to reduce the asset loss if we can and reduce the community costs and i don't just mean dollar costs here but the blight and the other kinds of costs that abandoned carts cause we want to make make sure they get retrieved that's why the default program is focused on just go get them and then we want to eventually get back to the owners any of these kinds of programs will do that any of the options and then we do have options specifically there to decrease the financial obligation of the community and to make the administration as efficient as possible the recommendation as i said is for city council consensus to bring the ordinance forward for adoption now a footnote as you received by email the colorado retail council has made a proposal that essentially would fit under the second option have proposed to do their own car collection program that would deal with carts around the city it's not completely fleshed out we haven't tried to ask all the questions that we should probably ask but apparently there's interest in at least one alternative to the default program which i was thrilled to see frankly i think it may offer an opportunity to do things a little more efficiently but it's not been fully vetted we wouldn't do that until we actually have an ordinance to compare it against so i just wanted to give you a heads up that that is certainly a possibility and with that i think all in the presentation and we can thank you very much jay you've done a lot of background on this i think you know there's very few comparables throughout the community throughout the nation that have ordinances and when we looked in a couple templates i think you've exceeded a lot of that and i think in in the early days when councilor johnson and i met with retail council this is really what you were intention was was to get them to take ownership so to be really short i look forward to seeing this come forward to first reading with all the recommendations secondly i think this council and maybe there's some creative ways we talked about this at the study session some people utilize these cars to get their groceries to public transportation and whether that's a single cart that is part of the grocery store or we talked about something that is artistic or a loan program i think that's important because we do have that need in our community so miss jo thank you mirror oh my goodness jay i am just so pleased what you've done here and i really want to thank you you've done a lot of research you've done a lot of outreach to the retailers it is not punitive it was never intended to be punitive and i just can't tell you how grateful i am that we are finally addressing this issue  our previous council had dealt with this in a study session we had a motion forward to actually go forward and somehow that didn't happen and i would just like to say on a personal note this is much better than what we had come up with however if it looks like council we're humans and if it looks like we've got something that probably isn't the best that we could come up with please just as a professional courtesy tell us it needs more time and more research rather than just kind of ignoring what was on the table but i can't tell you how happy i am for tonight i appreciate the way the ordinance is written and as the mayor said we did sit down with the retailers with chris houses at chris haws and also a representative from safeway that's been a couple years and frankly they weren't ready at that time to to be an honest partner here but now they are it's awesome the only thing that maybe i think that we could consider on this ordinance is somehow the carts need to have you're talking about orphan carts and just have the retailer's put some kind of a tag on it with their name and maybe put the request liquid on there so folks know if they see it what to do or give them a phone number and they can directly con contact that contractor and may even bypassed the system if they see that on their but thank you i am so grateful for tonight thank you thank you thanks for comments and and there were a lot of people involved in this it certainly wasn't just me but including mister cox and maybe others that are in the room i can't remember who's in the room anymore you know we did talk a lot about how our not a lot but we thought through how best identify who  car and how to get it back to the owner and and one option clearly is to tag every cart was something that includes the request lakewood connection and a phone number and those kinds of things we looked at it from a couple of perspectives and and that in the conclusion we reached was maybe maybe at this stage that's not necessary maybe we'll find that it is at some point one is that the the reporting parties the general public are probably not inclined to get out and go up to a cart and and get that much detailed information and then have to input it into the computer system and we can retrieve the cart on the retrieval part we can retrieve the cart by only knowing the geographic location we don't need anything else at that point now later when we need to get them returned to the to the owner we do need to know who owns those as we looked at that facet it became clear that that i can't say all but but we haven't found an example where a retailer's cart doesn't have some kind of corporate identification on it that doesn't give us enough information to return it to the right grocery store if it's a king soopers cart as an example but it gives us enough to call king soopers so we needed to know who to call and that's why we created the registration process they have to give us all the contact information we need and say this is the right number to call and they have to confirm the the identification information that's on the carts that's easy for the big retailers all of us can look at a part from the big retailers and know who it belongs to it may be that some of the other retailers don't have as readily identifiable markings on their carts so in the registration process they're gonna have to tell us what to look for and but they can choose that and and and then we're done we have to we have to do all the who gets it back part all the public has to do is say here's the location of the abandoned cart so our the proposal does not have a specific identifying additional identifier on the carts that includes the request lakewood or a a return phone number that sort of thing we're gonna try to do that through the registration process which we think will be a little less bureaucratic but just as effective may i respond a couple things i appreciate that this is a pilot program so that as we go forward it can be changed as needed and just a response to what you just said i still lean towards having some type of id on the cards because i think for the businesses it gets them a little bit of ownership in this program and they are part of the process that way they know that their card is going to come to them rather than king soopers over here in belmar or someplace else so i i'd like  actually consider that thanks thank you for your comment about the the retailers that have multiple locations one thing i didn't mention and i should have is that that will be an option for the retailer when they register it'll be clear to them that that we're not going to take the park cart back to a specific location that it came from because we won't know unless they do exactly as you described so if they want their carts to go back to the specific store it came from then they'll have to do exactly as you mentioned and that will be clear okay and also i'd like to thank you for including the map it took quite a little bit of research to put that together i've been working on this for close to four years to try and come to tonight and this is obviously an issue that's more prominent in wards one and two and to a certain extent three as well councilman roy balls nodding his head what's four and five don't understand to the same degree what the neighbourhoods are dealing with with this because they they frankly are a sign of blight and we're doing everything we can to clean up colfax this will make a huge difference and i just can't thank you enough thanks mister roybal thank you mayor j thank you again i just wanted to bring out some points of clarification some of the industry has a new system where the wheels once they pass a certain point the wheels lock up so some you know and it's not failsafe i mean they can pick up the cart and put it over the electronic wire going across and then they can push it but the wheels generally end up locking and a lot of the stores have come up with this new system they still have some of the old you know carts and they're still moving but you know here's a thought when the residents come and they walk down a certain main corridor and they have a cart and then they get on the bus and they leave and you were talking about some maybe administrative thoughts on how they they work in you had talked about the goal request well you know we wanted to make sure that the city or the actual cart owners do not get flim flam back and forth by a contractor well if you feed them the information they they know exactly where the cart is so it's already been documented the other case in point maybe that the individual contractor can take a picture of the cart in a certain area document it submit it forward and let them know so it's documented forward that this is where the cart was so you know it's basically administrative  you know things that they can do but i overall when i looked at this i thought it was fantastic i thought it was well well planned out and i'm excited for war three  i got great thank you misess goodwin thank you i'm great job thank you so much and just a couple quick questions um so right now i just forgot what the name of that organization is that is potentially coming up with their own solution that council thank you could you explain that again and if i'm not understanding if they will take action regardless of if we have an ordinance or if it's dependent on the ordinance or what their relation is there i don't know the answer that question i've not asked them they've been involved in discussions they knew the ordinance is coming they've known the general outline and of course i've seen it since it went online about ten days or so ago i just don't know whether they will go forward with or without the ordinance i don't know the answer to that question i am recommending that you go ahead and pass the ordinance if if their program proves adequate there's no harm done and it's a backup in case at some point in time they choose to to discontinue that so their program would work in addition to the ordinance or if it was so effective then it would potentially replace this it would essentially be a replacement as i understand it at this point we don't have all enough detail to be certain of that but i think that's their intent there's one overlap and that's the use of the request lakewood system that would still be done it's it's a it's a system that the city of lakewood talks about a lot so it's well publicized we'd still have a big publicity push to make aware that that's the way to report abandoned carts and the system can simultaneously notify a city staff person and the retail council or if it's the city's cart collection contractor that contractor so it all happens at the same time but i think that would still be the primary tool for identifying and notifying that there's a cart that needs to be picked up okay great thank you and and then i guess the reason that they would be motivated to continue to do this even if we passed an ordinance because you said they may see additional cost savings if they don't have to go through the city is a middle man i think so and and there are private systems in place in some parts of the country  generally there they are places that have hundreds of carts a month that it get picked up so this is a little extraordinary but i think the the private sector feels like they've they can do it at least as cheaply as we can and as efficiently and and on our side with the ordinance in place we can ensure that it's at least it comparable to what results we would get with the default program okay great and then so the only other question i have is i i didn't understand this when i was reading it the first time so you were saying not any fees that we collect through from the grocery stores for example we we will not be able to keep that that will all get refunded so in today's environment of the combination of the constitutional law tabor and the city's financial circumstances every every dollar would would not be a net decrease in our cost because it would be part of the refund to the public  what is the approximate anticipated costs for running this program kind of hoping nobody to ask the most expensive for the city would be the default program and and i think the the administrative part of that is minor it would be some part time employee hours to manage it essentially the contractor cost is a bit of an unknown it's it's driven by some things that that may not it depends on how the how the bidding occurs we're gonna hire a private contractor so we won't know the numbers until we go through that process generally speaking what we've seen from other reports of those costs is a few dollars per cart  if we're looking at twenty twenty carts a month average that public works is picked up now that doesn't say that's all of the carts that we're out there because the retailers have been picking up cards too you know that's that's  maybe a hundred bucks a month for the the cart contractor that maybe maybe so low that it's that we have trouble getting a contractor because their expenses aren't related to how many carts they pick up it's related to how far they have to drive so so i suspect in our case where the number of carts is is low in comparison to some other communities the cost will probably be higher that was a long answer to say i don't know i'm sorry at least so i mean essentially we're talking which you've highlighted and in the kind of the goals is limited limiting the the public costs and the public dollars and then also limiting the police agent time to as close to zero as possible because i as just discussed you know we do have other even though we don't have this major issue in ward five i think that there are more important safety public safety issues and also more important ways to spend our public funds so keeping this as low as possible i think would be great and i am anxious to hear more about what the private sector wants to do to contribute to this so thank you very much okay as representative of the person who has the most noise complaints and the highest noise and the most grocery carts what a week i would like to say can we come up with something to move this ordinance forward mister mayor oh yeah certainly i was just letting everybody speak their piece oh okay i just thought i heard that everybody liked it so i thought maybe we could move it forward my board says one here's what i would like to propose could we do one year pilot program with hopes that the private sector will come to the table with a doable thing and get us off the hook and at the end of the so with that is their consensus clearly to move forward all right so we'll move forward you might if you ever talked to the shopping cart manufacturers they could team up with roku you know a little vacuum cleaners that find their way back home a you are the only one kind of  so after several years of attending these meetings with you and workshops and ward meetings i would bet i'm pretty accurate and saying you're not here for your good health and i would also bet that you haven't spent your hard earned money and you haven't to get elected and you haven't sacrificed your time with family your income in your jobs and your personal time to be here so i think we would probably all agree that you're here for a reason a passion you're here to be relevant and you're here to fulfill the promises you made your constituents to represent us to be a voice in the city hall in this building for the citizens cuz you're it so therefore i would like to ask you to review paragraph a or newly proposed paragraph a that essentially renders you impotent the first sentence reads the city council shall by resolution establish or modify fees related to the codes if adopted here and well of course and then the next sentence goes on to say hey but upon application of the city manager the city manager may waive or reduce said fees if such action will further the economic goals of the city is set forth blah blah blah what's the point of setting fees having you debate them till eleven o'clock at night representing the will of the people or your unintelligence if they're just going to be rendered moot by an individual privately nothing personal whatever the individual is in that seat why have  i and then i look down to two paragraphs later and the present provision that city council shall by resolution establish or modify fees relating to the codes adopted herein is struck taking you out of the equation altogether why you remain a representatives of the people so therefore i ask you to please do not vote away your relevance as it relates to permitting and building fees i ask you please do not vote away your protection of citizens from willy nilly fees are but rarely raised reduced waved increased it's not just waving fees for favorite developers a favorite businessman a cousin a friend a neighbor who has lobbied plied bribed whatever you know one private individual to waive the structural fees it is also protecting us from fees and i ask you to please do not vote in favor of encouraging preferential treatment for individuals who beg to have their fees reduced or waive they're set for a reason they should remain fair and equitable to everyone not individually assessed on a case by case basis privately by one individual that is an employee not a representative of the people thank you very much all right closed public comment and i think if possible maybe miss watson in fact i don't think you ever had the opportunity to do this i think maybe it comes into play with economic development but maybe there could be more of an explanation maybe amara could get in touch or we get in touch with her and explain a little bit more i understand where you're coming from but i think the gist of it is is often so i think we're gonna need some more explanation of that reasoning and what that would entitle and where that comes into play we can absolutely do that okay thank you very much right reports i'm going to start with ms harrison two things i wanted to say that our ward five meeting was absolutely wonderful this saturday we had a great group  participation where we discussed different planning and developing questions in the city of lakewood and it was really good i really encourage my fellow councillors if you want to try it it was  so that was number one and then number two i wanted to tell i wanted to my fellow councillors and the in public to know that i had a hearing today i had a campaign finance complaint filed against me i went to the hearing the hearing will be the officers will be making that decision i'd like to thank adrienne hannigan for bringing this forward it is good citizens like adrienne that bring our mistakes to our light to light it was an honest mistake on my part i had no intention of hiding money by any means it was i just didn't read the code in the way that she did so i just want to apologize  to the public and everybody needs to know that the the fines will be paid and i say thank you very much bear real quick saturday we had the opportunity to go to the hispanic chamber of commerce gala and let me tell you that was just awesome it's getting bigger and bigger every  year this year there had to be at least a thousand people there it was huge and it was it was fantastic and we had her i'll let counselor be to talk a little bit about our ward meeting thank you we had to cancel our award meeting saturday it was a matter of good taste we have our meetings at a local church and a prominent member of the congregation passed  away and they had the funeral booked we probably could have squeezed in but we thought it would be a distraction for our ward members community to be strolling in and out of the meeting area so we decided the best thing to do would be to cancel the meeting and we'll pick back up the first saturday of next month that's also going to blend in to our ward for meeting this saturday to eleven zero a m we're and we'll be discussing the priorities that this council came up with an hour planning retreat and then getting feedback  similar to how ward five handled their last meeting trying to get as much feedback as possible from our folks on those priorities so that moving forward with the aggressive schedule that i have envisioned in my head over the next two months that i'll have some insight that i can bring back some specifics some brainstorming and look forward to seeing everybody there and one last thought if you aren't getting our newsletter please email or call me so that you can get added on to m it's at river church two hundred and twenty south yarra streets and i do plan on being there so looking forward to that also i would just mention our war two meeting has been cancelled due to i am respectful so thank you all for for coming out and i hope we continue that in the future that's all miss vincent miss johnson no report right so all clothes i'll pick up where mister roybal left off as well just the hispanic chamber event honored a very special friend of lakewood resident of lakewood one of the first members i think on our diversity council jerry natividad received the lifetime achievement award from the hispanic chamber so congratulations to jerry in his family he's done quite a bit we will not be here next week some of us will be in washington dc carrying on the torch of lakewood to our folks in dc and as councilor skilling mentioned we have an aggressive schedule and council has really tried to make sure that our information is brought to us sooner so we have more time to prepare and so staffs done a great job getting that ready what i would like to have counsel do we have a lot of great questions and a lot of those questions all of our directors are available prior to our meetings and so i just want you to keep that in mind as you as you review and as you have questions please lean on them there's eleven of us and we're gonna have long meetings for the next few months so we want to make them as efficient and productive as possible and with that we will adjourn at ten three thank you