dr donald wagner an ordained presbyterian minister and expert on christian zionism is an associate professor of religion and middle eastern studies and executive director of the center for middle eastern studies at northpark university he's the author of anxious for armageddon and dying in the land of promise palestine in palestinian christianity from pentecost to two thousand reverend wagner spoke about christian zionism at the two thousand and eight san diego said below conference well thank you all for coming out here and joining us for this kind of very bizarre subject but it's a subject that's very important and i grew up in this background and you know the book and tells a little bit about my spiritual journey i'm in heaven jellicoe christian i'm not in heaven joe local who would be considered a christian zionist however but i once was and part of my journey as it has been a from that to retain a commitment of as as an enjoyable christian but also one who is passionate about justice justice for all of god's people and so i'm going to share a little bit about you to try to interpret what christian zionist i'm is now want to show you just a brief clip of the leading christian zionists in this country pastor john hague is there a connection between the nine thousand jewish refugees there a connection there if you've got a better answer i'd like to hear it everything centers around the modern state of israel which he views as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and like many before him pat robertson jerry the late jerry falwell and many others they take the verse genesis twelve three i will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you and through you will all the nations be blessed and make it into a political platform basically that if america and americans and you and i begin to criticize israel we will bring on the doom of god in the judgment of god so that when israel withdrew he claims under pressure from the g strip and many of us feel that that was a minute the elation by ariel sharon and not an act of justice but he viewed that that withdrawal was going against god because jews were forced to leave historic palestine and their four hurricane christina was an act katrina was an act of judgment because of that there's many types of christian zionism actually one could say that there is a roman catholic type zionism as christians who support zionism and that is a good basic definition i want to look here however is the most influential movement is within american protestant fundamentalism and that's where mr hague and falwell and robertson and the rest fit that's what i came out of and i want to see that as a separate quick category as the right wing of the evan jellicoe movement the most visible most politically charged and influential movement is a fundamentalist christian so christian zionism is a political movement within protestant fundamentalist christianity that views the modern state of israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy th deserving unconditional now note that economic moral political and theological support so that basically is the essence of what we're looking at here this fundamentalist movement within protestant christianity is dispensationalism long names for rather you know simple idea in a way a dispensation is a period of time according to which god judges humanity i was brought grampa nelson by our grandparents i sat on their knees and was taught from the scofield bible and read the scofield bible which is was probably one of the greatest advocate dispensational christian movement a dispensation is a period of time for example all humanity from the time of the giving of the covenant at sinai the torah ten commandments  as i was reading it i thought that is what the bible taught that these dispensations are biblical categories they're human inventions that divide the bible up and create confusion these dispensations break up scripture and it kind of distorts the whole of salvation history and the whole message of scripture the dispensation of grace anybody knows when it begins crucifixion resurrection but when does it end jesus never taught the rapture it's not for me a christian doctrine it's an import into the text so and then that puts you into the emphasis of in time and time history in theology so  interesting things so here it's based upon i believe a misreading a first class alone eons for and we can come back to that and what it does it forces jesus into a double second coming if you think of it jesus comes first into the clouds to take the true christians out and then he has to come back again to wage the final battle against the anti christ these are all inventions human inventions that the stuart the sweep of salvation history and i think the message of love in the gospel tribulation of the tribulation is a seven and a half year period where the final battle against the anti christ take place in the course it will be focused primarily in the middle east and finally in armageddon the valley of majid though but what darby and schofield do is they create two parallel covenants that again in my mind is not biblical it's a distortion they believe that when the covenant was given to the jewish people with abraham and they only look at it through abraham that is an eternal covenant which runs for eternity across time the covenant with christ's they say and darby used the word is an interim really down scales it's important he says the covenant of christ begins with the crucifixion resurrection of vent and ends with the rapture and christians are removed from history and then the true covenant reverts back to israel and this is why israel is important and all the final events will be at that you know through israel so israel really in this system is elevated above the church the church is downplayed which is not the gospel which is not a new testament message there is another reason why this is a heretical teaching that has become rather popular ok here's the guy darby my kids they got to get a new picture of him it looks like he was actually a very loving devoted christian but he is the one who first systematized this idea a brilliant man but he got caught up in this n time kind of thinking in the eight hundred forty s and eight hundred fifty s he put the system together in england he was an irishman who broke away from the anglican church and created the brother in movement became christian the  brother in he made six missionary journeys to the us became a very popular preacher in the post civil war period when there was a rise of excitement about biblical prophecy and then the second great awakening came and he converted really well he didn't convert he changed the thinking of dwight l moody and many other leading evangelists to this end time dispensationalism thinking so he's really apostle of pre millennia dispensationalism he first put it together and then scofield who was one of his disciples put it as an outline on top of the bible and that's why this movement became popular and grandpa and grandma nelson i mean it was only the scofield bible that we were brought up on and that's were you know so many of us got this dispensational approach to scripture and it kind of forces you into this in time thinking now today  thinkers they got into this in the media early and it's just carried on in the one nine hundred sevent and fundamentalist christians got politics and there's a great shift that took place and jerry falwell organized the moral majority pat robertson began to get very political in his broadcasts in the one nine hundred seventy six he jellicoe elected this president jimmy carter i think it was time magazine the declared seventy six was the year of the evan jellicoe it pointed to how the mainline churches were losing membership and it was the evan jungle in fundamentalist wings of christianity that were growing and israel noticed so they began to make alliances with jerry falwell with robertson and many of these preachers and interestingly the mainline presbyterians pice couple lutherans they discovered well we've got christian partners in the middle east in palestine who are suffering from the occupation so they began to make resolutions and then discovering justice and work for justice in the middle east and the major israeli narrative would not tolerate that kind of human rights critique as we are seeing now with the presbyterian so they began to make inroads with the fundamentalists pollute for political reasons but also for economic reasons you know why economically because they could get bible believing christians to come and see only the israeli side and they would often go when there were wars going on and no one else would go and spent enormous amounts of money and this became an industry and still is you know bibleland tours but you only get one narrative you don't get both sides and you have no connection with the local christians and muslims in palestine so anyway that began to take off now carter made a statement in march of one thousand nine hundred seventy seven he was giving a speech and a friend who i know was involved in the carter administration and he said this was not in his text but he made a statement in march where he said the palestinians deserve a homeland he didn't even say state he said a homeland and immediately the pro israel lobby major pro israel organizations the jewish federations the american jewish committee but a brisk a d l and others joined hands with the right wing fundamentalists with falwell people like pat boone and others they took out a full page advertisement there'll probably remembers we had when the chicago tribune that was in the l a times coast to coast saying that president carter is going against the word of god because if you're calling for a palestinian state in a two state solution that means israel has to give up the land it just conquered the west bank and all of that is jewish land so you're going against genesis twelve three you're going against the covenant so there is that thin fundamentalist literalist interpretation given a political spin so carter then was demonized by the very people who elected him because of this issue and then he felt the economy began to slide the iran contra thing really hurt him and who did we get next ronald reagan was heavily influenced by people in the dispensationalism movement and ronald reagan believed in made six public statements about armageddon hey had a dramatic conversion which is wonderful but he kind of got locked into this dispensation this movement with hal lindsey with some some other evandale evangelists and he believed that history was pointed toward armageddon in people in his and ministrations that also were oriented that way reagan himself held pro israel briefings in the white house and our dear late friend grace halls al attended one of them and i saw the list of them she was a wonderful author and they only invited the fundamentalist wing of christianity the falwell the robertsons of pat boone's and the others you wouldn't find an orthodox christian you wouldn't find an arab there and they were given but people with global radio and television reach were invited the briefings were by the israeli ambassador to washington d c people like bud mcfarlane and oliver north who are involved in the country exchange and very tied in to the exchange israel's involvement in all that so highly politicized so this movement was growing in terms of its political clout its alliance with the right wing of israel not just with israel but the that all of palestine is ours and we will accelerate the settlements facts on the ground and begun in his people saw we need the right wing evan djoko christians in the us their numbers are bigger than the jews and we need to politicize them and organize them so that and then he excel arrays of tours falwell had a red carpet treatment he would bring people in and begun would see him and then falwell got the he got the job atin ski award which was the highest award from the likud party and he was given a lear jet for his travel by israel so this was intimately connected with the right wing of the republican party and the look who had party and often you can see when the could and now look who it is can a morphed into can deem a when they are in power the use of the christian zionists goes up labor doesn't have as much use their little bit more secular but they're still a factor out of the christian zionist worldview there's no openness to a two state solution even there's no openness to negotiation for dialogue even now is just one monolithic hardline zionist narrative that they support and for the christian zionists out of biblical reasons and then it becomes politicized with its merger with luke who'd been to deem a politics there's israel has a right to colonize to settle and with many even to drive the palestinians out some of these leaders have even supported mass forced expulsion and parties ethnic cleansing by the way in the name of christianity you know what what a horrific image in a record that is you know with the gospel ok now let's spend a little time with mr hague we saw him at the beginning there's a gay and gary bauer very influential when they were forming koofi christians united for israel this now is the major christian lobby that's working hand in glove with a pac the major and probably the most powerful it's always between the national rifle association and a pac it was the most powerful but tremendous clout if you're going to be elected to office you've got to be on the right side of a pac and now a pac is working intimately with with mr hague i think we should just let hague continue to  talk you know because he will make these amazing connections you know blame me he actually said hello at all feel or was an agent of god because the holocaust bro jews to israel and create israel well the jewish me got pretty upset over that he apologized and then we go back and he's got this katrina the judgment of god and america with katrina so he keeps popping up with these things a wonderful book written by a jew and this is gershom gorenberg the end of days he's a jerusalem report writer he was interviewed after the book and if you look at it closely we jews either convert or disappear in x three and four and he says as a jew i don't like my chances at that that really marvelous but it's true we need to take a stand as concerned muslims jews christians you know atheists who are concerned about justice whatever this is  taking the united states and the churches down a false path a few reasons why we should care i made some allusions that there are elements of in this the allergy that contradict the gospel where is the love jesus christ is not central to the two covenant idea where the church disappears is not biblical the rapture is not a biblical doctrine to elevate history is moving toward a final culmination of armageddon is not biblical and certainly christians being transferred out of history and that being engaged in the work for spreading the gospel in justice that is not biblical i've had a chance as many of you have had to travel around the middle east and the image of christianity that's being increasingly projected is the sinus christian crusader war like image of christianity and places where maybe people don't understand the different types of christianity this is what they think the gospel in jesus are all about hades vision is what's perpetuated and we really have to stand up i think in rescue christianity from this for denominations now have taken stands and we have all their position papers our website you can get them now church of christ the presbyterians the lutherans and the reformed church in america which is an evan joke of denomination denouncing this movement as an biblical non theological in a distortion of the message of christianity and of course a bill to the conference and all the heads of churches made a statement against christian zionists because they see what it's doing to the image of christianity in their region and these christian zionists have no compassion to the destruction of the churches some steps you can take some churches have twin their congregations with palestinian churches i think the great antidotes for this movement are palestinian christians themselves because they raise the questions about the injustices that these folks support if israel has a right to build settlements to confiscate land and to drive palestinians out the palestinian churches who are now suffering are really that narrative can really create a lot of questions and then we can move on that the muslims and anyone who suffers in a justice need our compassion our support if there are nights to honor israel that you find out about in your area see if you can organize some churches and maybe some rabbis to make statements about it or create an alternative event this is been done in some places it was done in wisconsin a rabbi took a stand and said this does not represent what i want for israel and it does not speak for me as a jew and some rabbis are willing to do that now and i think increasingly they will now that the border reform rabbi says come out made a statement study the resolutions and study scripture and we have a lot of tools i think that can help you stephen's book this book zines christian soldiers i think is the best where he does an analysis of this two dual covenant theology he goes to first testimony and four to daniel and the revelation and really shows how this is distorted message that we get from christian zionism and what historically christians have taught and  struggle and of course we don't at the same hearing as hague and many of the others do but we need to take a stand i believe jesus rejected this teaching this doctrine in several places for many he says no one knows the hour in x at the very beginning of x luke plitt places this event in of the ascension right up front and however your view of scripture is of this is actually the way it happened i don't know back to taken at face value that a couple of disciples come up and they asked jesus lord will you now restore the kingdom to israel that was a question which would translate into you know this fanatic christian zionists or militant jewish zionists kind of perspective and jesus is harsh with them what he says is it's not for you to know the times or the seasons that god has fixed by his own authority in other words let god be lord over history over time and over events who are you to try to create a little countdown chart whatever and read the scriptures that way and history that way but it is for you to be my witnesses and the the greek there is martirio to be faithful and to death and it's what's interesting he says in jerusalem the city of the crucifixion start there i take that to mean go to the difficult places with the gospel it may be right in our own cities in towns it may be in israel palestine certainly the middle east but go to the difficult places with this liberating gospel of love of truth and be ready to pay a price for it faithful and to death so jesus says as opposed to an escape in a rapture didn't all get your hands dirty and live the love of christ so just the opposite of