jersey she was a star athlete she was an exceptional soccer player and then incredible track runner she also excelled in academics and she was socially popular and well liked by anyone who came in contact with her and she was a role model in her community and also she had a really great group of close friends she was also surrounded by a very loving and supportive family by all accounts she had an amazing beautiful wonderful life and her instagram and social media also reflected everything perfect and everything calm and everything happy her nd semester of her freshman year at u penn unfortunately mattie died by suicide on january th two thousand and fourteen in the ensuing years after that this wonderful author named kate fagan took the time and the care to really dig deeply into the story and to make sure that she did justice to maddie and her life and the wonderful it that she lived she also wanted to find out what made maddie run which is the title of her book and with that also came with how mattie lived her life and what she presented and how that's sort of i don't want to say deceptive but it was a little bit true to what was really happening in the background and star trak us lead an ivy league division one school and all the pressures that come with that and without going to into it with my part i'm in a let them speak so welcome and thank you my biggest things to you  actually thank you so much for opening up your life to kate fagan so that she can do this type of work and write this kind of story i can't even imagine what it must have been like to have essentially a stranger come in and say hey may i have access to all of her e mails and  messages and everything it's a very personal as well and just have to keep talking about it so my st question is to you how did you come to that decision when kate approached your what was what was that like well we  st met kate when she came to us when working for e s p n w and they wanted to do a story on madison and an article essentially called split image that focused on her social media representation versus  real life and what was going on so when we st met kate to do that we instantly liked her we knew that she was relatable that she understood our story and madison story the book touches on it as well but kate had suffered a little bit in in college to being a college awfully and having to focus a lot on that and ultimately like wanted to quit at one point as well so we do that she was the right person to tell madison story and she was also just very likable very friendly our family kind of was drawn to her almost immediately and so after she worked on the article that was based on madison she said you know this is really important to me this is really touching to me and i would love it if you guys would allow me to write a book about madison and i mean i don't know about you but personally i don't think it was ever really a question i think we really go for it you know you're the right person to do this you know i almost as if the two people had met like kate had met mattie and one thing that this book was so important to me too is that i feel like i can relate to mattie even though she's decades younger than me and lived a very different if just some of the struggles that were present are some the troubles that i've gone through as well and the way that the story is told everyone can relate to social media pressure and healing and a lot of people can relate to socially their own running community of like being perfect and also the platitudes of if you're struggling it's mind over matter and just just push through it you know you can do anything you put your mind to right and positive thoughts will solve everything  and i know that this book was sort of to tell her story and maybe come to the question of why did she do it spoiler alert there is no one reason it's a very complicated layered thing that happens but i want to know as you were going to the process of talking with kate and having her interview you and all your friends and everyone that he knew was or were hoping for something more like two maybe that there would be one reason or is there anything that was shot not shocking but was there anything that you learned from that process that was surprising to you that maybe you didn't even know or realize i mean i learned that it was going to church at the end which i had not known beforehand i think a to talk to some of her friends and they had told us that but i was not currently aware of it before kay came in and told us that so i thought that was really interesting i mean madison our dad like more raised catholic and so she was confirmed unlike grew up in the church but i never knew that it was like very important to her so i think to see that at the end of her life that she that was like where she went for a source of help and some like i think that was that was very interesting in them and made me feel a little bit better you know like she was looking for god at the end so i found that out when kate was doing the story and i found that to be very interesting but that was probably one of the only things that i hadn't known that came up you know i would say i think everything the book pretty much knew too except for you know some of the details about the church which you know i was also glad to hear and you know because i rely on my face a lot and you know i think for her to know that she was also reaching out you know going to church  foundation and that is to go out and educate raising a freshman about the pressures and what to expect when they enter college and specifically student athletes am i correct on that or it's more inclusive you know we try to be broad i think actually in the beginning it really started is that a very strong focus to rising freshmen to high schools graduating and into to go into college but i just feel like as we've expanded we've just met so many people that do suffer from mental illness and it can be anybody from you know a twelve year old to a fifty year old so i think we've definitely broadened our reach for sure and even just the people that we talked to like we've done speaking engagements before i know i've spoken to colleges and younger schools but we've done corporate events and even spoken to communities around our area community events and it's shocking to see how many people relate to madison story no matter their age and also how many people are also suffering from mental illness and have just been nervous to speak up about it so we like to be able to talk to them because i think by us talking them but also by reading the book it gives them an outlet to say hey like i'm suffering too i know a lot of i've talked to a lot of parents who have read the book and it gave them an outlet to say hey like to their kids did you read this are you suffering is there anything you want to talk about whereas previously they might not have had the opportunity to bring up that conversation or felt strong enough to do that before so after talking with other parents and other family members that has has your view of what happened changed or the way that you have coped with it and moved on cha expanded anything i think for me it's easier now and i mean i think you know like these talks and go you know with harley actually makes it even easier because i feel like now we're really helping people and you know there are so many people that need help like we we tried to focus like high school seniors and you know college freshman but i think you know well we're finding out it's just so much broader than to bring it back to also what you were asking before i think that was maybe like the one thing that we focused on right when it happened like oh it was her transition to college something that was that was it that was what did it so that's what we need to find in others and fix and help but i think now that we have you know just more and more about other people and how they suffer and maybe more about what madison was going through it shows that it's like you said never just one thing so it could be it could be  anything and so yeah i think that's another reason why we've kind of just broadened and try to talk to other people help other people as much as possible have you try to change the language around the conversation and specifically this book talks about how one day that he was happy one day she wasn't and then the next day she was gone and it seems to have happened so fast and and i'm wondering how do you address that with the incoming freshman and how to talk about it and with the language of text messages and instagram how is that being presented to them well i think kate actually touched on a lot she mentions in the book but she touched on a lot in the article that she had originally wrote about how these are the highlights they're not the whole story and i just think that her stating that was like the perfect representation of social media in general you know everyone goes on to post these perfect probably highly edited photos of their lives and they look great and it's a it's a great way to share with people you're not physically close to zero you know if they're living across the country across the world you can share your life but it needs people need to know and especially teens and young adults need to know that this is not the whole story you know and i think that was one thing that madison did kind of supper with like she was able to recognize it herself because she did tell her our mom when our mom said you know you look so happy in all these photos she was like mom it's just a picture you know so she recognized that inner self but i don't know she was able to see that and others because then she was like oh my friends just look like they're having such a good time in college or you know a lot of my classmates from high school they're having so much fun so i think it was definitely something that she struggled with and i think that he did a really good job of bringing that to the forefront and talking about social media and how you know it only kind of shows the good usually and not the bad so i start out with that as an adult when i see a mom and i see all these other moms leaving these students the incoming students and their families where some of the ways that you prepare them for that if you have any tips on the parents especially because what another thing i found fascinating about this book is that some of the other parents and i kind of chalk this up to them having grown up without social media that they were able to look at mattie's instagram from the outside to be like interesting really real and one of the parents actually said that all her friends were too close to it and just didn't really see  the darkness that kind of lurked behind there so when you're talking to parents at this conference has some advice that you give to them when they're looking through their kids instagram feeds or social media as well i think st of all it's to realize that what is shown on social media is probably five to ten percent of their actual life so again it's just a picture or it's just a small video so it's not the representation of what's really going on in their lives anybody can go out for an hour and smile at a photo and then go home and proceed to cry themselves to sleep or have an anxiety attack or whatever it is so i think that that's the st thing that they need to know the nd is also just to start a conversation there's nothing wrong i think a lot people are especially parents are so worried about going up to their kids or young adults and saying you know have you ever thought about suicide are you depressed do you having zite is something wrong and they don't need to be afraid of that having a conversation and starting a conversation is the st step to helping them because sometimes your kids might be too scared to come up and tell you the truth but i guarantee you if you just start by asking them the question they're going to feel a lot safer and more inclined to open up to asked me that during my time and i i feel like i possibly would have just lied and said no yeah everything's fine everything's fine i'm totally fine well that was also the other important point is to follow up you know so i think maybe they're going to say yes i'm fine but then if you keep following up they might realize you know they really do care they really want to know they really are interested in my life and what's going on and so i think it's important for them to feel safe that this is a safe space for them to talk and maybe i know that like my parents got madison a therapist to talk to because they were like you know maybe if you don't want to open up to us or talk to us about this we can find somebody that you can feel honest with and talk to and i think also you were in some of the sessions with madison but y had also stated that like you know madison if you're want to go in there and you feel like you're going to open up more and be more honest with your therapist he was like all set out so you know that's important as well so in that last session that you had with matt therapist was able to make many feel safe enough to admit that she had suicidal thoughts and also ask her how her say that she will act on them and this is i think from the book or that article  leave of absence policy and you know it's all right if to really pursue taking a leave of absence you know for a medical reason so that's what i would encourage i mean if they really think their child is in any danger to really explore you know what what what the leave of absence policy is that the college or university because i think i don't know if i want to change anything but at least  medication and therapy sessions i mean that's what i think could have been a good option for madison who we had you know more time you know that's i actually learned that afterwards you know i  we wholeheartedly supported him and were willing to you know do anything that he needed us to do whether it was get signatures or just you know promote the cause on social media get the word out but yeah he was really the driving force behind health for the students around the clock correct yeah right and it's been implemented so it's like moving through the schools now yeah right yes and have you talked with any families or students who have benefited from as it's still a little bit too new to have that i think it's so little to no i mean i haven't spoken to anyone i don't know about you but i haven't i haven't either but i did talk to one mother that this was actually before it became a law and she was my advice with the mother was well you got to go see your daughter right away and she she did and actually her daughter got hospitalized but it all worked you know she was just hospitalized for three days and took the medical you know everything took th it approved there as well you know it's just new jersey right now and i know that the unthinkable and general has sort of put forth a push to mental health access to more readily available to all students but also to not neglect the student athletes right now and being a coach at a school myself i can see how at other institutions how that could be very isolating from the soon afterwards and talked about in the book how there is those just idea that they should be able to move through anything and that it's all about courage determination and that if they quit because they need to for their own mental how they might be seen as weak and whether the coach actually thinks that or not it's a lot of pressure on the soon athletes themselves yeah  how is the conversation about that particular area change or how what's the direction that you guys want to push that conversation when you go to your talks like when you address when you talk to coaches like  me like what would you say to me if you thought i was doing something incorrect or harmful like how would you approach it and what are some tips that you would give a coach i mean i think being aware of it is kind of the st step which we are seeing a lot of a lot of coaches are now aware that this is a problem and that they need to be more tuned into their athletes you know are you having trouble are you depressed is this too much for you do you need a craig and i know when madison had met with her coach at u penn that he did take it seriously and he said you know this is important if you need to take a break if we need to decrease practices whatever it is will do that i just think that he also saw so much talent in her that he didn't want to give it up to her to give it up so quickly so i definitely think that yeah just being aware of it making them feel like they have the safe space to talk about it also whether that's with you whether that's with other teammates giving them that opportunity so kind of just like you know breaking the stigma and letting them feel like they're open and safe to talk about their real feelings of what's going on and how how sports are affecting them i know with a lot of athletes madison was high achieving and she was always an athlete like since she was a little kid so it was all she kind of knew and she was always good at everything that she tried you know so when she struggled with mental illness i think it was something that she couldn't fix immediately when it came to sports she could always just you know practice running faster or training harder or die it may be that this was something that i think was so hard for her to fix and whatever she was trying at the moment obviously wasn't working and i think that was just so crushing to her and  a lot of athletes because their minds kind of work that way you know like i can fix whatever problem i have in front of me and mental illness is not that way so absolutely it can be yeah it can be a really like traumatic and horrible feeling especially in the moment and when you're an athlete you know you play games you're in sports there's a set of rules there's a referee i'm reading from like you know there's all these consequences for breaking the rules and you know to get back on track and like you said there's training you get better and you can fix things and then there's a know and i feel so part of what was interesting about her story is that it mentioned how she posted a lot of beautiful inspirational quotes yes and as a writer you know there's always like these correlations between like setting your mind free and running the long distances and like finding peace in your soul and i think people i i appreciate what you can do i myself was able to do that for a very long time until it didn't work and then i and then she went for runs and she wanted to run for f other coping skills and other coping mechanisms to reset i feel like one of the prop now one of the issues was that when you put everything into one thing like being an athlete to be your saving grace for lack of a better term it's a little bit dangerous you don't have a y net things and you touched on that when you talk to your athletes and the incoming freshman teachers yeah i mean i touched on the fact that like i think madison kind of kept trying to find a reason that this was happening to her and like we've talked about before it's probably a one million different reasons but for some reason i think at the towards the end she kind of focused everything on track and she was like you know if i can just quit track like off start to feel better and i don't think that that would have i mean it could have helped i don't think that that was obviously the one reason why she was suffering but i do think that because of track running wasn't really fun for her anymore  still like to come home and use it as a workout and and run for fun but i don't think she was having fun in those moments with her team and so yeah i mean if you're not finding happiness competing anymore then maybe it is time to take a step back from that and find what does make you happy and that can be so many different things whether it's meditation therapy i know is just so beneficial to so many people talking to a friend being alone it can be so many different things but to try them out and just see what works for you because once you do then you get control back and you know i have this thing that i can do that makes me feel better and it may not bring me back to where i want to be but i can bring me back a few steps to where i at least need to be and i think that's really important another takeaway from all of this and all the work that you've done with all that is just making sure to let people know that it's ok to be ok that it's ok to talk about it openly and say ok these are the things that are happening to me and this book was so beautiful and meaningful to me because of that and how just also presented this wonderful person nothing traumatic happened to her and i think a lot of people have this idea that depression affects people who have gone through something dramatic like something that had to have happened to them to trigger it sure but she was sh of next goals that you have for the foundation for the foundation we want to continue probably increasing your speaking and really the more we're working closely with a company called effective schools solutions as well as a k through twelve mental health program so i think that'll be very beneficial for you know  partnering with them actually to for statewide scholarships summers in the state of new jersey so we're sponsoring a scholarship in the goal there to is to again get the word out break the stigma of mental illness share madison story more and get the people who are living at these students these young adults get their ideas you know what we want to know how to help more what's the best place to figure that out or find what to do next is to ask them it's kind of the simplest thing you know but like i asked them what can we do what would help you if you are suffering so i think that's a big step in the right direction for us as well and we work with the american foundation for suicides of increase for the pass two decades by two percent per year so you know you can hold i mean even just you know twenty percent is an amazing goal but i think you know just by area and each town is kind of dedicating itself to becoming stigma free and with that they do you know walk and talk about and or they pass a literature around town about what it means to be stigma free what mental illness is how to get help so i think a lot of people now and a lot of towns a lot of communities a lot of states you'll still see this big push about it let's end this stigma let's talk about how we feel let's reduce the suicide rate and let's all get help you know mental illness is just as important as physical illness and the nd that people realize that we're going to start helping ourselves and healing ourselves thank you oh yes i love that you're doing much more fantastic and it's really heartwarming thank you carly and james for being here and talking about you know it was a loaded subject and i really appreciate your openness and honesty and your continued work but i'd also like to thank you for manhattan neighborhood network and for hosting us today fourteen shortly after my sister's death by suicide and today we focused on ending the stigma sharing her story to start a conversation talking about the book that was written about her and what  happened and we just spread the news as much as possible to get out talk about your feelings find help and start a real conversation and you can find out more about us and what we do and how to help by visiting our foundation's website