means rule of the father it's a culture rooted in a gender based two part by an airy hierarchy human capacities are either masculine are feminine male is central some men are over other men but all men are over all women it's seen as the oldest form of discrimination and domination in human history in classical gre men's virtue was seen in managing the affairs of the city the world business and war women's virtue was in looking after the house and of being a husband aristotle went further he portrayed women as morally intellectually and physically inferior to men he saw them as the property of men claim that women's role in society with the reproduce and to serve men in the household male domination of women was understood as natural and virtuous now there was no single event that initiated h r t and it probably developed in different parts of the world at different times marx believe it or merged with the development of the idea of private property he thought the first form of unequal distribution of labor and property was in the family where women and children were considered the property and slaves of men ancient greece and the greek city state of athens in the early five centuries b c also developed the first known democracy in the world the greeks were severely conflicted over their creations autocracy comes from two greek words autos meaning self and crop those meaning power to talk received power or rule of the self or dictatorship  mos in greek means the people the mako see was power or rule of the people in a mood brilliant book called why this patriarchy persists carol gilligan and i only snyder show how america is beginning to understand what the ancient greeks struggled with patriarchy and democracy are two contradictory systems working across purposes that cannot coexist link in the fine american democratic system as government of the people by the people and for the people and he made it very clear a house divided against itself could not stand killian aside or point out that the spite decades of activism on gender inequality as an equal rights to fulfill america's democratic promise we are now enduring a u s president who is unabashedly and uncompromisingly patriarchal to his existential core tens of millions of americans are shocked as we as individuals and as a people grapple with the very real threat of losing our democracy and precious freedoms decades of progress of the dances and hard fought liberties are now in question in the face of the shrill rage from the white house and appeals to force war fear greed humiliation shame and disrespect by president who says he wants to make us great again even more profoundly damaging as gilligan and snyder argue is how this renewed call to patriarchy is a call to sacrifice our basic human capacity to love nurture and care for ourselves others and protect the precious sanctity of the world and nature we all need to survive and flour there are powerful psychological mechanisms underpinning patriarchy that may be driving our politics that otherwise seemed and exposed in the spoke over we've reached a point of no return it's not only the american house divided against itself it's the world's humanity in capacity to love itself and others that's at stake and that's the central question of the book where we need to start how do we explain the stubborn persistence of patriarchy why does it persist which way will we go the ancient greeks understood this and understood the choices this book will help americans understand  too so welcome naomi snyder co author of why does patriarchy persist to the radical imagination it is great to have you here on this is a absolutely terrific book here it is why i was mak the psychology of the political nature of this phenomena so help us help our audience understand a little more about what you mean by patriarchy how you yourself got involved in this and i was i thought you gave a very good definition of patriarchy i think you i think it i think it's complicated because a lot of people see it as simply the male domination of men dominating powerful force controlled a social assault social laws it's verna biological determinism right exactly yeah we know where that is quite the opposite with saying that rather than i mean just like you can go it would not need to be so rigidly enforced sort of based on carol's research which we explore in the book we look at how if the boys it's typically the age of four to five girls a little later it's kind of m in american schools this is what this is based on but i you know i've read there's a great going to forget the name of the author that looks that kind of  hunter gatherer kind of way of being which is a kind of patriarchal model is is the original kind of position she looks at actually how very very early on it was kind of villages of of mothers fathers uncles aunts grandmothers fall to be seen to be known to love and to be loved and so to maintain a position of dominance you have to sacrifice all those feelings of cat vulnerability and you have to show that your push strong man and i mean you just need to look at the law i think i don't know if it's if the statistics are this stock in this country but in the u k the i think it's the second or second largest killer of men between the ages of eighteen to forty  to keep you from doing this and yet we're aware that we're acting in a very self destructive way and destructive way this is this is kind of the book started with a bit of a puzzle for us so it kind of began with i was one of fascinating and really and truly i was i think i was in the dark ages somewhat when it came to questions of feminism because it just really wasn't that much in my consciousness connecting to resist we're to maintain a system of domination and submission between the two of us on the war you have to become kind of disconnected from your capacity to kind of feel and any empathy for me to even listen to you and what they think that what you're going to say is important exactly because if i if i if i say to you you know this hurts so much for me to not be able to say how i think how i feel you know if you're connected to yourself you feel emp and you you'll be compelled to do something to change it i mean some of our greatest liberation movements have been built on kind of the power of love and mom like martin luther king was in there so she's basically says love is the way out of if we if we have this design capacity to connect as humans deep desires and wants right it doesn't happen exactly said that we began with with that puzzle in mind and so basically you know it is it is a riveting traumatic experience for both and good and how do you create an environment where people do come forward and heal and because man's life by coming forward and saying what happened i think is is to miss locate the source of the problem that because all three agree all the women's doing is saying this this thing happened and it was wrong and it should be looks like in the case of right i think it's a really complicated question right because you know issues of well corroborating evidence often it isn't often it's one person's can the other you know like what becomes fair kind of what becomes that issues to bring in to discredit a woman and i think if we look like a lot a lot of the evidence that in full on responsive families and why those children so often come to blame themselves and he says it's better to believe that your you're a sin i just have to improve myself here blaming the victim as other groups of had to do too so that's why these these movements of resistance that then become proactive and also te educate raise consciousness become so important that not only for the victims but for those who are victimizing groups but well so this becomes this becomes and again the issue of this puzzle that we came to sort of reading carol's walk and saying hey i love the way way out why do we sacrifice loss of patriarchy and and as i reflected on that question i thought well i know story how was your mother after this i mean well i think really like i think we were all really devastated by it and it really devastated and and i think the for me i think i blamed myself a lot but really was like if i could if i could control myself if i could just be whoever the other possum wanted me to to be then i could avoid t being completely presson on the one hand because i was terrified if i was really myself then they'd leave but also it's an insurance policy if i'm not really myself and you do seen as you know defenses that often adaptive in on the one hand they seemingly here they used to think we don't develop defenses for no reason we develop them into logic situations to protect ourselves the problem is over time they world so yeah it's like the iron cage here exactly yeah that lee and the male suffers as well from this type of relationship because they're not experiencing true intimacy   porton for us to see the links of domination oppression and racism and sexism and so on because it's again the the patriarch and we see it daily nightly with our  present here and his search for whatever meaning but the meaning of rooted in him power well much money i have and so on and threats and force to make sure that that continues that that world view and the and wanting to control the world's vision of him and then gets it gets preposterous in the end so destructive that we're actually we're taping this  at the same time that the house committee is is is is is hearing michael cohen and i was telling right before the show that the last question i heard from actually to again go back to the sort of present we now have to deal with the sort of vision he's trying to polls and so i think again another reason why this book is so important because it can offer us an understanding and i do think it's extraordinary important what you're doing here is showing the psychological and the connection to the political and i would all and also aired this dimension of love young radical of which the program has been about often in the last four years and that's the way out of this like the way you walk with and also i think maybe there's something that we could i don't and i love him more about the conception of radical love because sometimes i think in these conversations a bit of a bad rap because it can sound a little bit wishy washy right but like what we don't mean reality more because actually like one of our really fat like we think it's kind of a fascinating that's just a really kind of when you really sit and think about it that's a really radical observation both male and female get is that this is fixable you realize it's like the need for connection is sticks pression of speaking truth to power when a baby cries when its parent in some way responds positively there's nothing better gags and due to the idea of who you are and what the world is do you at that point disconnect from relationships there was even like an emotional disconnection from the feeling of sadness that accompanied the loss so that's when you get kind of that's how in a way you can understand what's really kind of what gives us a lot of hope right now is that if things are getting worse as kind of the oppression and the oppression that's been that may be under the surface the sum of us not all taking taking both these phrases we call it the anger it's not a destructive rage it is anger in the surface of reconnection and things like love love does not always look pretty love is sometimes saying very you know sometimes when you love someone you have to say things like a catastrophe and to love is it's messy yes and you might love attempt to love in a world that doesn't return and even with the mother one would you hope you expect mother's love but that mother may not be loving you either so how the that's part of what radical love is it's listening to people perhaps from the most hope hurt by it and how do you deal with that catastrophic trauma what what how do you maintain your integrity your courage in the face of this because you don't want to give in to that hopelessness alive which is obviously horrible destructive way of doing this you lash out yeah in the rage and so on so we've got to absolutely and learn other ways of that plan dealing with this and so what you're add to here that we've leaders come and go and they're constantly raising hope which is often dashed  of the things i can say about this that i think oh so we need to go politically transcend just having a woman as president we need to have a woman or man who but look at the policies and he talks about a hyper masculinity in the he he's very very convincing and these brilliant and charming and so on but look at the policy that's what people like expanding the wars that george bush was involved so what is that about what you know what i think it's a fascinating thing and tonight i'm sorry and hillary was was certainly not a dove and didn't seem  people then i think that's really sustaining i think i think that's true i think that's important component of this now made to be seen within the political structures we have it and the domination the prison military  thing to do and just to be rare because people speak in so many different voices like individuals so what what and as we listen we often want to categorize and put like oh this like i'm going to put