we have to do something let's see if i can change the picture here so ok we'll play this and there should be some sound coming out at some point we don't want to blare anybody away but besides shooting still pictures for forty two years i'm also a video i just love to take or be involved in taking movies or now videos this is in the first year that we studied that was held ten diving under the bow of our boat i was amazed that after decades of captures that these whales you know they adopted us that we were really the only boat out there and they escorted us through fog let us go with them wherever they traveled and they had very set travel patterns this is my son when he was very young he's now but fifty four  believe it actually but that's apparently true and this is before it was against the law to be near whales without a permit but in this case your watch and some whales that are approaching and happened to have a real fun zoom lens this is in the eighty's and then we pan up to the porch and here these we had earth watch teams that helped us shannon here was one of our earth watch members well we had ten teams each year of ten people that would come and help us take pictures this was black and white photo identification we had to process film every night the next day identify the pictures  and then in winter months we'd have mike big visit and we would confirm the i d s of all the whales that he and i had seen in the course of a season which usually ran from may to september the whales  in the area of the san juans almost every day it was phenomenal and they were in these groups that were leisurely traveling along and they were catching fish fish were so abundant abundant that's a nice word that they didn't really work very hard it just seemed like they were like when when i was a kid i was a sheep dog i was herding sheep with a friend who had a dog actually and i learned that sheep are afraid of dogs but they're not afraid of people and they move when the dog wants them to move the fish move when the whales want them to move and then they eat some on the fringes as they go by one way this was a magic time of life i never thought that i would be still doing this it was supposed to be a six month was things we'd seen before when we saw it the second day well we've seen that before too but then the third day in the fourth day in the fifth day and on to seventeen days it was just see if i can so here that brought world attention to the plight of these whales were wondering why nobody was listening but now they're listening we had this young whale j fifty she had a difficult birth in december twenty fourth teen but she survived and here she was last september looking pretty fat nice rounded back and here she was just a couple days ago we see this condition we call peanut head this is we've never seen a whale recover when they're this seriously emaciated but she's still going on i think instead of calling her scarlet we should call or bunny for energizer bunny she just every once in a while just keeps up and trucks along i wish her well but frankly there are plans afoot to capture and try and treat or she's with her mom and sister she's feeding herself and they're feeding her was any salmon around she might be able to be rehabilitated by her family just as we're beginning this talk tonight i got a call that they were asking me if i would participate in the capture operations and i didn't say hell no but there's no way no way that she's now whether or not she survives she's in the best place possible with the family well let's see if this will roll good this is kind of what it used to be like lots and lots of whales it was just amazing and then this is kind of what a drone look at these whales might offer where you could know every individual whale look at their social patterns see who's feeding news playing with who maybe even who's mating with who i don't know if i mean all that's basically been deciphered after the fact with this remarkable molecular genetic work we're now we know the father of every whale in our southern resident population but you know this is kind of a nice line abreast foraging for fish herding fish in kind of a relaxed it's all very coordinated they know what they're doing and they're working together and they're also socializing together these are probably  again it will be nice to identify every whale in there and see what the association patterns are but those are just interesting science things what we already know is they need to eat  and that's that's why we're here i don't know if this will continue rolling on but i want to get some of the credits here at the end because people don't mind watching whales so just watch a little bit yeah i could do this yeah all day i could watch this kind of stuff but that's the way used to be but this footage isn't from here it's from japan just a couple of days ago that's awesome they still have a thriving population of whales and they still have abundant prey resources so the resident story goes back a long time i'll do a real quick overview but they basically descended from north atlantic residence and spread out in the coastal waters from asia to here in puget sound and there were fish eater ancestry eat all of them eat fish and ours happened to be specialists in the chinook salmon northern residents also and alaska residents and out here you have a little more white feeding that heat some other species some polock and abundant species there and apparently the japanese killer whales are eating pollock which is an abundant prey resource and they're doing quite well i think it would be interesting to do a comparative study look at the demographics of that population versus that but what happened was our our resident whales this is looking at the place the seen the ice ages and when they came over from the on north atlantic the only way they could get here was swim by water and a lot of time the bering strait was closed with land and that's when humans came over six fifteen sixteen thousand years ago and when it was planned and only recently we now have water but the whales came over honored twenty thousand years ago the resident he could die and the trance in you could tag came over three hundred forty thousand years ago they're totally different beasts they have different diets different evolution different gastric juices there's no way that they can that our resident whales can change diet started in seals and you know we shouldn't be impolite to people that suggest that but straighten him out so ok as we know the population when we began was about seventy or seventy one and as of july one each year we report this to the government it got almost two hundred by one nine hundred ninety five and then began a dramatic decrease and now we're down to seventy five as of this past july will come to this side later but most of the decreases been in el po and no as pointed out we know every whale that was born and every whale that has died the red bars indicate the numbers of whales in a given year that died or were born in the blue bars  you know all this is very there's no doubt about any of that information and we know that when we put the mortality bars over what the fish abundance is that  basically we color coded all the river systems that produce salmon and the number of salmon harvested in escaped in each system this was british columbia in the early years and this is current is columbia river in the early years and this is current you know it takes about four million adult chinook salmon in the ecosystem for these whales to maintain a lifestyle that doesn't have big mortality bars and we know that when we have lots of fish we have not only better survival but we have more fecundity more whales are born so the answer to the question here is what number of fish are we going to allow the whales to have humans are catching these fish the fish are trying to get to the rivers th fisheries management has to allow first and foremost these whales sufficient food to survive so jane kogan one of our neighbors is real data oriented person and also graphically she's looked at every river system each of these dots is a chinook river somewhere from queen charlotte's down to california and she has the data for each one of these rivers that catches a skate mn you know the basic idea the government may have similar data because actually most of this came from the government but she's compiled it in a way that allows us to see but north of us we've got canada india they should take care of those fish south of  california should take care of those fish but this part is our responsibility we live here with these whales in this ecosystem and it's up to us to provide enough food for  this steep decline i went to the god squad and told them we had the problem here and we ought to do something about it and then in two thousand and five it took a little while but two thousand and five the endangered species act was whales need and it was obvious from the beginning it they need food but they're up against a big industry number of big industries well anyway so we went back to the family scrolls and looked at if we look at these red boxes here are sexually mature females the pink boxes are young females that you know when they're fifteen years  old or twelve to fifteen they'll start having babies we hope and the blue boxes are mature males and the pale blue ones or the young guys but will notice all these little boxes here what we call tombstones you look at this area here there is no possibility of reproduction in this you know it's all boys and and female that's reaching her senescence there's no possibility obviously and here there's little possibility of others we keep open l ninety will actually have a living catholic she's had two miscarriages anyway that's what's happening to n l pot  is our coastal pod they're the ones that are feeding on the snake river fish more than the j pot this one is going nowhere basically we've got one reproductive female that's producing calves and one young female that may grow up and hopefully will hope for her to have a calf but that's going to be eight or ten years from now and then j pod was formally doing the best and then of course now we've seen their recent crash with the crash in the fraser river salmon so this is not only the population it's whether or not they want to be here this is forty three total days that any of them were in and very only three dimes did we have most of the man that was really a bad year and this year is no better  so yes the snake river here it is this is the habitat where we could find more fish than all the rest of the rivers combined if we restore that system  and i spent thirty five years with the corps of engineers and worked at every echelon did construction all the way to washington d c d c did a lot of policy work even men just spent some time in the bush white house working on climate change that was no fun by the way they say one way so we're going to talk about what we call alternative four and that's in the e i a s that i have here it's one of seventeen volumes of the u word explain why this is a viable alternative we're also going to talk about you know what reaching is all about what the costs are what the economics and what the opportunities are because this is really huge the you know  people talk about you know things over here in western washington d c from washington this river is calm like a hidden coal mining it's been buried under one hundred forty miles of reservoirs for over fifty years and there's a massive amount of opportunity there and we'll get into that too so with that let me dig into this but first i want to talk about what is the chinook urgency because you're going to hear me say and you've already heard it that we need to get these dams breached in a matter of months and i also want to point out though you know you're by sid waddell you're crazy you can't just go preach tam's in a matter of months well like your mind i'm a good one important thing is that we've been at this for twenty five years so it's not like we're just going to start this afternoon and figure this out people been working on at the core spent millions of dollars done in and we've been pecking away at trying to you know people who litigated for years that hasn't gotten anywhere be now and so let me just point out a couple things about what's going on we should know of it just you know recently so first off this rather complicated looking chart is a government chart it's actually put together by the university of washington of the columbia basin research service but it's all based on government data and what it's based on is counting fish over dams which the corps does every day they count every adult fish that goes over those snake river dates so they know the numbers ok so this what this chart shows is is small to adult returns and what that means is when a little small to warm up and unveils framer in a hatchery and it goes down the snake river and goes down in columbia river and then goes on the ocean and gets eaten by stuff in and work goes and fishermen get home and then they come back and you know when and so this is how many of those fish made it all the way back to their hatchery or to their natal stream and so historically you would need we know that these these essay hours were in the four to seven range ok and we also the government you know the folks that set the goals and standards about what we ought to be trying to do with recovery said what we really have to have somewhere in the three to six range to get recovery and maintain it and but what's been happening is that over the last eighteen years and this pattern has gone on for years before this but they just don't put all that data on this chart is that we have been averaging the last ten years just barely over one and you can see that a lot of this time were well below one and if it wasn't for that one one anomaly in two thousand and eight it looked horrible but the bottom line is is if you're below two you're not recovering ok if you're below one you're headed toward what i call a lot of molecules call functional extinction that means while you might not be legally extinct ill will be salmon are tough you can't kill every damn one of them but you get to the point where there's nothing to fish there's nothing for orcas there's really nothing for anybody but a few token fish and and you can see that what's been particularly troublesome is this last five years and this is a combination of genes that are getting diluted and so the gene pool is getting reduced and but you can see that we're in real trouble here and because we're not just below one we're hovering above zero so that's this that's a that's one of the metrics it's small to adult ratios another more obvious one three fish oil well i guess that's better than one but you know why you call it abundance i mean you know these runs we're talking about are three percent of historic and if you can just the wild fish it's less than a half of a percent while fish are left this is what we call abundance so anyway this shows over lower granite which was that metric before this you know lower granite is the uppermost of the snake river dams and so when they get across lower granite but as you can see from this for the last three years we've got a lot of rig numbers in here and these are all declines and it's really tanking in terms of abundance and so this year it's it's no better  things some things are worse the default you know i love the fishery agencies kate and i tell them the stuff that what jim the fault of the you know the you know the surprise they're doing so well and all this kind of stuff and and we schumacher collapsing and you know faustian a weren't really the primary source of orca food but now they are those orcas are out there now trying to eat all shook they used to you know the normally they're concentrating on spraying in some summer but now they're having to find whatever they can including these falls so this is this is this is the real picture now i just one of my colleagues tyson here showed me something the other august thirty first and on the second page of that faction they had a graph of abundance of spring summer chinook and in that it was interesting because the report was was a graph from the idaho department of fish and game and you go wait a minute no was got all these numbers what's going on they should have these numbers are actual counts and so what was interesting about this they use this graphic to incorrect by four of fifty thousand should know can twenty sixteen that's a lot of that's a huge error and as i talked to a colleague of mine in the core of engineers about this last night what he has point down is he it looks like that chart which is probably six years old was actually modeled predictions back in two thousand and fourteen but this is what noah is put into a fact sheet a week ago and telling us we don't have a problem i think we've got a problem folks so so much for their abundance oh here's the other cool thing about noah they've inspired a saying you know oh everything's fine we should know also put out a report twenty seventeen and you'll love this it's called the spring summer should the recovery plan and it sounds great is get all these things that the states in the feds are doing to recover you know what habitat and everything else in the world working on dams and you get down to page two hundred nineteen and you find this incredible statement that says it's spite of all the actions in this report none of them will get us to recovery none and nothing in this report will give us three cover how on earth could you call it a recovery plan if the whole thing there's nothing in there collectively that's going to get us to recovery so this you know this is a classic example of the government not even reading their own stuff and this is what we've been doing it damn sense for a long time is pulling these government documents in and saying hey look folks this is what it said and that's what we've been doing all damn sense all but they use them is predictors of the next year this is one of the worst jack runs for returns we've seen in maybe a decade or two probably since the early ninety's and and what is showing of course is that  the they are into line is the ten year average we should be up in here someplace but you can see we're running real low here i think it's like this is about a minus eighty percent and so this tells us that next year look return spring summer are really going to be a lot worse than they are this year and they're terrible this year so i don't know what work is going to be i don't know what the fishermen are going to do but this is this is this is what the data control dams no you guys are pretty smart you know there are some guys and congressman newhouse is absolutely convinced they're flood control dams and anyway they're not they excuse and there you go by the way it's kind of interesting it has what we call incidental irrigation so that means the taxpayers are paying for anita serug ation but the farmers put their pumps in this anyway we're taking care of those geysers we got a new estimate for extending their pumps down into the river and it's about twenty million dollars it's not that much easy to cover and breach cost ok so just a thing about our sources the key document is the lower snake feasibility study that's this thing and you can read this it's on the cores website walla walla if you want to read through it it's four thousand pages but nevertheless it's there it's a key document to all this we're always trying to use stuff in the public domain because we want to show that you know the public you know you can get to this stuff in what i've done you know i've spent ten thousand hours probably the last four or five years but anybody could have done that ninety five percent of what i'm telling you and i i didn't i mean i learned in the last four years sure the corps of engineers gave me some insights about what to look for and the instincts but  it's really all out there the folks that are working on this there's a lot of people like me some in federal agencies some of them are still in the service and i just got a call tonight got a recent brief on what's going on with this court order d i s and the real mess it's a sham and they're talking about how do we get out of this study and of course that studies not even relevant because we've got one right here and i'll talk more about that anyway recently we've got some help from the mill guard foundation and so we've done all that one of the things that we wanted to prove though with this work is that you could in fact update us with a small number of people very quickly and so this is when you hear the government say all it takes are you know it's an old it takes upgrading all kind of stuff takes a long time know it done that we've already done ninety five percent of the work with mostly government people and these are government people that are trying to get the word out into trying to in their bosses or suppress them and stuff like this and that's why i get calls from anonymous people in the middle of the night or you know and they tell me what's going major study the benefit cost ratio was simple low one but they cheated they they rigged the economics right there in the report you can read what they did to get it over one and and today the b c r is still well below one could compare to breaching the would breaching your benefit ranges from four to one that's like for every one dollar you invest you get four dollars in benefits this is what we have today is fifteen cents on the dollar which if you keep the dams your tax money for every dollar you pay you get fifteen cents back over the life of the project you don't have to be a business major to figure out that's not good so the reason we have a big range here on benefits with breaching is it depends on whether you really want to replace what is now or has been for a long time surplus power and it's it's worse now because we're losing b p h losing money big time on surplus sales also the full up cost to tax and rate payers and what i mean by that is what is b p a in the core payola annual basis right now versus their revenue and that's really kind of critical because economic analysis is over one hundred years but you really want to know are you making money be losing money on these names in the answer is for at least the last five years it looks like cost of exceeded revenues  and this is helped lead the bonobo to the dire financial situation that they have admitted there in also your tax money one billion dollars of it was invested in what we call alternatives two and less benefit than doing nothing so we did something worse than nothing and we spent a billion dollars your tax money and we got nothing for it as you saw in those essay hours of the pundits charts  northwest i just a bit about the cost of dam operation this is what i've you know learned how to do in the corps of engineers and we but spent a lot of time trying to figure this out in the meantime is this really tricky because you've got b p a spin in money and you've got the corps spending money and there's all these debt arrangements that goes back and forth between the agencies but basically what it's telling us is that each we do for dams cost about two hundred twenty seven million dollars and twenty seventeen in the revenues were maybe two hundred but those are based on numbers the corps was using five years ago it's probably more like one hundred eighty but anyway let's just being conservative groups were lost at least twenty seven million dollars almost four dams last year  tony jones our hydro power guy wears tony areas right here now he can get into these numbers and tell you everything he's done more research he knows how to look at the government data and pull it up you can even show you how to do it yourself of yourself all right so anyway talk to tony to meet with me and we got a question for him later so the overall like i said the overall benefit cost for the lifecycle the project can actually earth economics helped us go back into the economic appendix of the course study and correct the tables which were atrocious even according to planners in the corps of engineers said jim i can't figure this stuff out so we had to go to earth economics and we spent a lot of time unraveling the benefit cost tables and basically after correcting some errors we found the rule is earth economics had to stick to the government planning guidance they couldn't make up their own economic accounting rules they had to do it the way the government said do it and what we get fifteen cents on the dollar planning council which is the people that your governors have put in place to keep make sure that we're not getting screwed on our power rates and the dams aren't killing our salmon so can you play this let's listen to what he had to real action is now ok so there's the the c e o of one of the biggest utility companies the united states basically telling us we're these close this close to panic now if you own stock in that company you need to be shooting at guy or selling your stock i don't know which but anyway this was fix this sort of incredible is that i don't have them i'm not making this stuff up this guy is saying it bonneville is broke but nobody knows it that might be the most important thing anybody said the last twenty years in the pacific northwest and it went virtually reported anybody hear that before tonight but as you saw in one of all right so here's the problem and this is a chart out of bottle powers strategic plan they came out with in march and he's briefing it to the power planning council is that this green line and i know it's a little hard to see but we wanted to use their char so we don't get accused of making anything up is the green line shows bonobos cost and what they sell hydro power to us to do these lights up here and you can see that we're at about thirty seven dollars a megawa hour these now and of course you can see disposing been going up pretty steadily and you know when you're paying these rate increases what's what's killing them though is that if you went to the open market this is the prices going down here and so there's a twelve dollar difference or so right now and so bought of all is really in a if you're in a business and this is your competitor and this is you it's bad news really bad news and so how do you turn  monopole has got to do some serious cost cutting and i'll get to what that means in a second this rig mark up here is basically what we think roughly speaking it costs to produce a megawatt of power on the lower snake dams ok so that you can see that it's way above what even bonneville is getting now down here this is this is this this is surplus power being sold the numbers show you what that means in a minute but a lot of this power  is putting out at these high prices is being sold as a surplus to california most of it now you notice that it says minus sixteen so when you're selling something for minus sixteen you know what that means you're paying somebody to take your product off your hands because you've got too much of it ok so and you're promising want to they just turn the turbans off and spill the water well you can't do that you've heard this maybe this thing about gas dissolved gas in the water and gas bubble trama on salmon which is the same thing as bins for diverse well when you spill more water you put more this gas in the water so they have to run the turbulence they have no choice and they're losing money doing running these turbines and so the only thing you can do is completely take a day i'm out of service basically put it into an operational mode but you also got to get the water out of the reservoir because you can't spill it no where you can't just turn the turbans off you have to lower the water and that's what we're going to do with breeching so here's some of the stats that tony worked up force he went back and looked at every hour production for ninety six thousand hours of the lower snake river details what he found was only two hours were actually needed by b p a customers the rest of it dumped on the open market sold a surplus at a loss wind was good trailed forty times in twenty seventeen because they had so much surplus power to shut the wind turbines off so those people in some cases lost money in a lot of these are farmers in eastern washington you know you got these from washington you see those windmills those are that land that is on is this mostly farmland and those farmers are good money but when they could tail it of those farmers get nothing and some of them have early earlier the guys who did it a long time ago they've got contracts that give them some rebate but it's not full cost and and how many people have heard this over the last twenty years if you breach the snake river dams the lights are going to go out in seattle i mean this is well maybe you know we were in eastern washington this is like they say every minute anyway the lights are not going to go out in seattle i guarantee you dipped into the surplus by two hours and so that's basically what it is when you're in a question and answer session on i am going to get tony to the mikes so if you've got a question for him he's a little shy to just turn it off again ok some of the other stats on b p a they're basically ninety nine their their debt to asset ratio is ninety nine percent you know what if you have a mortgage and you got there you're in trouble and that's one of the things they don't pay off their mortgage really they refinance back and forth but they're not really paying down their debt which is now about seventeen billion dollars they have nearly zero days cash reserve this is unheard of for utility normally two hundred something days the customers are leaving and the ones that can leave are like factories the people that have these short term contracts you heard elliot mention ten years on contracts these are p u d contracts what p u d s are like to hear whoa how do we get out of this because if you wait till ten years and don't do anything it's going to be you guys remember whoops the nucular plant fiasco here in washington that we're  still paying for this is what's too unless we get on this really fast ok so the only way to deal with this is removing high cost under perform assets is the only way out of insolvency so if you've got seventeen federal dams what you want to do is what do they cost what does each one of them cost and that's what this is with us some guys correcting these numbers over the last ten four or five years have shown that the asset you need to get rid of is the force make dams  it made it'll probably take more than that to make them solvent but that's a huge first step ok the opportunity each of these snake river dams and the reservoir in this is the people that you know you hear  almost ninety eight percent survival over the dams well that's a high that's the high number the average is about ninety five percent the low is is ninety and at times it's far lower than that but the resident bores also so they're killing about ten percent of the jew salmon passing through so there are twenty million chinook that are to go through the lower snake dams each year a lot most those are in fact those are the hatchery numbers there are some additional wilds but not too many more and so in those eggs or in those hatcheries right now no streams right now so they're sitting there and they're you know they're going to you know start hatching any day now and that kind of thing and  so breaching to dams which we say we need to do will stop the killing of about four million of these youngsters you know shook so this is why snake river dam breaching not only saves us reg money and tax money it's the only way because the salmon are already there and we need to not kill them that's the quickest way to get salmon is a quick kill him ok so of those four million about half of them make it past the other dams and into the ocean and about fourteen months after they go through the lower snake river remember there are already about six months old or nine months old about fourteen months eighteen months later they'll be several hundred thousand available for southern residents and fisherman that's what that's the that's the should habitat killing more seal lines and doing some more studies i've been to all four of these task for maybe that some of you have been to and you've seen it in what they're not looking at seriously over or barely at all studies and i don't know about killing sea lives of birds but the habitat stuff is work and hatchery production maybe but the key point is even if it's that stuff has benefit it's worthless if you don't reach a snake river dams and you know the real tragedy is the billions that have been spent on habitat work is being wasted because we're killing so many salmon with dams they're not even able to use this app attack so that's more your tax money being and ratepayer money being wasted thinks that you know it's going to cost a billion dollars industry in the taxpayer state of washington taxpayer is supposed to pay that it's wrong but where is he getting this information i don't know but anyway like we said the benefit cos ratio is a least four dollars to one if the hydro power is replaced but you don't need to replace it we've already said that what's interesting is that when you breach you actually allow more solar and so forth and in fact right now today there's two thousand megawatts of solar that people and you know utility energy providers doing solar are trying to put two thousand megawatts of solar only grid it's in it what they call the integration cube and you can google b p a integration q and you'll see it is this little table that shows you all the power and it's most of it is solar and wind that people have figured out it's cheaper i mean they're they're trying to get it on the grid so they can sell it ok so breeching can save a ton of money for other habitat restorations area and maybe you guys have heard about the puget sound near shore restoration project corps of engineer project to you know help are the sailors see tickly of the puget sound four hundred million dollars needed that money is not going to be here as long as you're dumping millions into the snake river that's just the way the budget process works and so we're getting puget sound getting hammered because there is no money in the any kind of meaningful amount to do this near shore restoration project over in eastern washington you get three to four thousand more jobs along  river the six counties along a river lewis and idaho an interesting thing is when the when and the land gets transferred to the state of washington after breaching you actually any revenue generated from sale or lisa lands and we estimate about thirty million would go in and state school budgets well that's got some nice little bonus given you know our state goob what is the situation and of course it shifts federal money to other needs all right so really quickly this is how you do it it's policy papers not lint litigation this is policy paper in the us to bulldoze or that's all it takes some other pieces of equipment but and this is what you get is you remove the earthen berm and you get this free flowing river around you leave all that concrete there turn it into you know some kind of amusement park or something  image is from the two thousand and two yes they the bridge plan is this thick it's them it's their it's a well engineered piece of stuff we the only thing wrong with it is the cost estimate which we have fixed it used to be three hundred or eight hundred eighty million dollars to remove that earthen berm it's only three hundred forty like i mentioned earlier so what else oh the five policy means really quickly the decor needs no new authorities to place  project into a non operational status by removing your from berms people say you've got to have congressional appropriations authorization no you don't the corps already has an environmental impact statement and and like i said if you had to update it it could be done really quickly in three or four months so you've got a need to document the this court litigation that you guys been hearing about for twenty years in the you know recent refrain two years ago with a guy the judge says who gave the feds five years come up with a new environmental impact statement is is you know a lot of people say oh in the course says this we can't do anything until the judge gives us a new decision that's absolutely wrong that waiting on the courts while you're wasting tax money and killing salmon and affecting orcas which are all against the law basically doesn't of get out of jail free card just because you're going to be in court in three more years on a piece of paper doesn't work that way but they'll tell you that that's what it the way it works this is actually to buy a process and i just show this because this is this is the original court case back here that led to these biopsy into the c i s and so forth and what happened in two thousand we had a biological opinion or no what did in those agencies that review  was sitting there valid secretary of the army confirmed that that is the e i a s that's been used on this project and so here we are and we're actually this is two years old why did to start we could we could have done this in two thousand and sixte e i a s and the record of decision and what it says on page twenty five is is this business i think i said maybe or somebody else i said it earlier is that it says that if you didn't do anything to the dams back then that would be slightly better than spending money on improvements to the dams and so we did we gambled fifty billion dollars and lost or stand breaching was always the best alternative and well the o they can also because of a fish credit fish mitigation mechanism they haven't in one nine hundred eighty act they can actually get a credit for all or part of that breach cost in the to the credit camps against debt bago on the dams which is seventeen billion so and that debt will never be paid back and if it did volatile would have to do i heard this from a public utility commission last week he said we can't pay the debt back because if we did our rates would go double digit increases every year so we're just piling up debt paying a lot of interest and and still going broke and then up to fifteen is that it really is easy if the decision is simple you don't need any more paper you know a record of decision a five page document a commander signed and you're good to go and it doesn't cost this billion or two we've got you know it's three to four in including some contingencies for irrigation and some transportation stuff from farmers so you probably go on so what do we done with all this government information that were piled up well there's there's there's my business cards those are ones just from congressional meetings and here they are this is real you know that's that's like fifty or sixty meetings with staffers i've yet to meet a senator except at a fundraiser and i did my three minute elevator speech and embarrass the hell out of him that's a tough way to talk to a politician by the way you know that's not what they want to hear at a fundraiser you know br damps but he did it anyway and you can see all the other meetings that we've been after it's just tens of thousands of emails and so forth i want to i want to take a break i'm not a break but i want to bring somebody up to to take talk more about the social media in the public involvement because this is really making a difference