the yeah so you're going to have a second generation yeah thank goodness for the second upcoming generation then thanks for this generation and welcome to conversations pleasure walking program a friend of conversations we did a program i guess back in the early sevent micro valve he was a senator from alaska served very well that state from one thousand nine hundred ninety nine hundred eighty one and he still kept his hand and he's got a thing going now that he's involved with called the national initiative and there's so much to talk about the micro walk i'm really very very much a convert it's so good to see you and thank you for having me and giving me the ins to expose the cause yeah it is a good cause and that because i remember we did a program way back then with it was with louis kelso and you were senator and you were looking product of louis russell long and myself into doing the legislation i remember in that regard but what it was was we were setting up e g saw a general stock ownership corporation where the people of alaska through this corporation would buy a sixth of the pipeline and would finance it one hundred percent yeah and they would finance it out of your journey totally yeah in fact you know that's a really revolutionary idea that's a whole in and of itself but that's the whole kiss with concept you use credit to a crime acquire wealth and that's exactly the way the rich back through the retrieval have been doing since your old bag now days other people's money yeah right no no internet and it worked out fine it would have meant that the citizens of alaska even at the beginning oh you were in finance within you that's where we worked as a much jeff team he was the nice guy and i was the tough guy tough guy we just would hammer this you know yeah he had that eureka meeting with lewis and seventy four and they went and he came into the senate at least keynesian mr nixon or nixon in seventy two they were all canes in it i'm a callous sonia so he had a really revolutionary thing and boy the economist targeted him i think don't you think the academic economists how i came education was in economics it was august and but but he had thought of all oh yeah and so why reinvent the wheel and so i ever since have been a very strong advocate of who is and we became very close friends yeah those and of course he says  now but sunday and sunday his stuff will break through and why oh so yeah when it does he'll be recognized for what he brought to the community i think his is the only analysis as i could have done a lot of programs about  outside of what all the others are included in it this labor theory of value the idea that we're going to distribute income according to the labors participation in production and that's becoming undercut by a trend of so that when you lose your job you have income coming in from your capital you're not totally dependent upon either the government and the welfare of them or or nothing and yeah well it was you know because there was a critique to capitalism economic process became all in one norman click tour and so was all in one group did that the needs were not really it wasn't able to work in terms of the house are in there and so the question is does it matter that the people are related to the way things are actually be produced and this we have a tremendous commitment to this idea through the puritan ethic another thing the idea that if you work hard and you're going to have a work and they say that you will get income by your participation in production through your labor either an intellectual or it is legal it's not going to work because the cybernetics is over there not coming in displacing labor and maybe it would lose the only one the degree you could if you could displace labor you will let's make those machines pick the cotton so you don't have the slaves to do it that kind of analogy and that's a very see that's a very large paradigm of thinking that runs counter to the the institutional assumption of under which our society is organized don't you think very much so did the young man who accompanied me here jack krause yeah  're a guy ross has just written a paper that he is says that i read before coming on that addresses this whole historic evolving but we both agree that this won't come about  and convince of this kill so ism will not come about until we have direct democracy where the people make the decision as to what how their economy's going to work as opposed to the elites making at the solution you know who make the decision for their own judiciary can't bring the people into the g dish except for the jury system or the executive the less your appointed but you can bring the people into the law making it so that they make laws and what we're suggesting is that this can be done with the people come in as lawmakers working in partnership with their existing elected representatives like a pipe to support tory democracy exactly yeah rather than a representative democracy and  congress and then we vote on it and we don't have to go out on a tuesday rainy tuesday night we can vote on it once a week over a seven day period twenty four hours a day and you can vote on it from any place in the united states  are obvious that the something really really wrong let's take gun control from you know gun control if you took a poll of the united states i would venture to say more than eighty percent of the people think that we should register gun and in large urban areas like new york we should out you have a very big lobbying group in the national rifle and it's not a big lobbying group it's a very succinct lobbying go oh well i financed and dollar right and that they can surgically go after people so rather but it but but that so you're never going to see a change nationally because of the way that is working that they can go buy enough legislators how to stop best and best congress money can buy right now it's easier to the into the founding fathers had that sort of a notion built into it i don't think they were anxious and having the un trampled masses making to sit out as they were and inform they're not informed the just don't understand the way we do who are well informed here in th senate or in this house of representatives and we've been elected and selected that sort of young they they were as informed as they could be at that point in time in human history except that keep in mind john adams and you know he was very knowledgeable about the interesting and they made a calculated decision to make sure that the people could not participate after the constitution was ratified so the people could no longer participate directly in their government and that's what we have to two hundred and twenty some odd years that we've been existence and what have we accomplished in fundamental changes through changing the constitution only one thing the rest is the rest is just what a place it will be accomplished expanding the franchise remaining people to vote a lot of women to vote the civil war right yeah yeah with the civil war civil rights and the rights of women to vote yeah what and what what's the situation within seventy percent of the american people choose not to vote and it's growing  yeah yeah yeah all we have done in our two hundred year history and and so that's what we need to make a fundamental change and a change is not going to come from a time it's not going to come from the congress it's going to have to come from the people  and then it's made up of the of a statute which is which essentially is a set of rules one of the things as you well know twenty four states had the initiative and i was going to add i wasn't that aware on petitioning though you have to go but if they qualify ok we have that to get all go into that yeah but but sure you go get petitions the theory being that you have to have enough people interested in the allegedly to matter in order to put it before the people make and because a poll could be a lot more accurate than a petition and you can take national poll for thirty thousand dollars so that's all it would cost to qualify initiative if you and i wanted to do an initiative nationally we could do a poll and that's that's the last penny we would have to spend because the rest of it the communications the process and so forth all of that is done with public monies and under a year and under a national initiative  that that's going to be a parallel institution and stay in your work in parallel with that exactly yeah and i hope it will go across the country and across the world because this is what we're doing is we're changing the paradigm of human governance and magic we're bringing unfathomable that i had i you can do it and you've got people who are experts on the we're the experts and we can understand the nuances of the issues in the so forth like that and the people can't understand it's too complex they're only expand very well or they also there with they the people don't care that people have a life they don't care they just want the system to go and they don't want to produce is the reason why they have a lot of ways a young couple the reason why they don't care which is the reason why they don't care is because they don't think your vote meanwhile you perhaps know you well but they're right yeah right kids worry about their jobs and try to improve themselves as as a family it is it something maybe because a lot of things have to do with the technological development of a society and that sort of thing when you get slave cotton picking machines you don't get to have slave that makes a thing like that you have a you have that kind of thing is it that we're getting to a point now where when we had our constitution established they had this agreement with the plantation owners who had slaves of the biggest you had to fight a civil war over fin the historic of a we're getting a point now with the cybernetics with the internet and with the communication that it's possible for us to think about something some way of organizing a society other than the long in these representative democracy pot patterns we have a history and the technology of making possible something new that has not been possible out of history because we don't have a history of only plutocratic elite's running thing all over the place what makes it different now than what has been the case throughout history or can you controlled state legislature and he says well if they won't go along with my budget proposal i'll go around him to the people he just did that with this financing of the fifteen billion dollars now there was a american people with health care i'll go to the american people with with with regulating firearms and i'll go to the american people with respect you name the issue the president is do do that they do not try to go over the head of the media or there's some people corporations not only run the government had they run they run our society and they run our global society and in the global society it's anarchy and there's no control you know so i mean the world's yeah right you'll never be able to deal with the problems of human beings unless you bring them in as lawmakers because they'll be able to deal with corporate personhood you know a corporation you know considered a human being i know under the law i have never quite understood the it pays for all these lobbyist and i don't know any lobbyist who's an entrepreneur paying his own salary up there they're all paid by corporation yeah right right right and we we focus on the money the obscene money the george bush is raising  now isn't it but but but we're focusing on the wrong thing we spend a lot more money on the lobby after they're in office i see in what they do and then you can get a situation like when you see bush go off the deep end with what he's done in iraq but that plays right into the military doesn't accomplish this this is manna from heaven well it did the government is set up and people will say democracy i'm for the people that sort of thing but really governments have been set up for the benefit of the rich and the powerful  absolved against the masses so this idea about involving the masses is something that you you co opt them or you you put you know things like that but it's always there to protect the interest of these that is called people that have the power isn't it and aren't the powerful more advantageous in terms of the way things are organized the laws are set up to protect them first and foremost and have been the question and always have been and time we will do it with well no no it won't be you know that's a radical you know if we're successful you know the national initiative  people will begin to come in and make laws and then the people will make laws that focus on their public interest it's that this is not rockets no i mean taking that it's radical it's radical yeah  american people the american people can make one hundred percent of the policy decisions that affect their lives that they're radical notion from what they're well it but it but just think about it and here i had  he kept pulling on his pants and all the good think of was the strange look but but all i could think of was hey there's no i took baby physics one hundred one and hobbs right there's no way i was a match for him in physics you know and that was not that we issue the issue was whether or not we would use the bomb you know as a matter of national policy i'm as qualified as he is because my life is at stake and his life is at stake now in americans will come to realize that whether it's health care or the other issues education welfare job opportunities employment all of these issues that affect them in affect their lives i mean life and death yeah that unless they have the power to make laws democrats he agrees and a lot of these neo cons try to go back to the neo platonists and stuff and you know athens the model and oh but he did athens was a slave society i mean it was a few people who the life of the mind in the spirit of few people but it was based upon slavery all the societies have been based upon slavery in a certain if you start thinking of wage slavery and so forth even it still is we're in a situation of but it's it's it's but he said aristotle said it was necessary that some could so but right now we're moving into cyber native society where we're decreasing the job base and we're increasing the production but we're all as a result of that we were either got a job or no job focus on one part of the national issue it's very significant and people say well hey this is a great idea you know i'm for this was going to happen and i just said repeatedly that it won't be enacted by the congress now the house is going to happen  well keep in mind you know it's taken us twelve years to get to that concept the way we have it now on the website where people can vote with it go read the text of the law live by line the procedures which are the copy of what i've learned in the congress now but it's very and democratic because if you can if you get two thirds of the congress to make an amendment that then goes to three fourths of the state lays laich out right ratified not the state legislature of all you've got to do is barriers and the reason why they're there is to protect slavery and now that slavery is gone by the boards we still have those four areas in the constitution let me now come back to how the people can do this the the people the people that can do could amend the constitution how could the now our founding fathers purposefully did not put forth any procedures like they do in article five for the government really did not put forth procedures but they did put forth article seven which is how the constitution was ratified and it said that when the conventions of nine states have ratified this constitution it becomes the law of those nine states superseding the existing constitution those nine states so now we take that with that in the period of the articles of confederation no no no that was after that was after that we had that experiment in the constitution article seven a very sure article easy to read ok so what we're saying is you know they're stepping they all have articulated statements they never did anything about it but they all bought into this so now we look at this and say if that's the case then let's use article seven as a precedent and say that but the standard of nine states is irrelevant process following the tradition of our more than two hundred years let's now say that if the majority of the people who voted in the last presidential election voted for the national  would be the law of the land the people who owe such a thing at an hour i yeah you were using the president reason to present you know using the fact that the people created the government in article seven ok and we're using the precedent of how we've conducted elections ever since our founding and that is that the majority of the people who show up are the ones who elect the person whether it's the president or members of congress or the city council you name it so now what is that number it's an interesting number yeah you look at the last election and when the two yeah ok no i mean in two thousand it means it's over fifty million americans and voters registered voters have to vote for the national they say well that's horrendous that's right it is it's unbelievable as a task it's if it would cost as much as a presidential campaign but just no easy way to do this there's going to be no fix and to empower the people you have to overcome the elite and you have to overcome the establishment you have to overcome the unbelievable ignorance that exist in academia about this subject is one professor yeah richard parker of harvard who's a great supporter of and they will work in partnership with their representative government and if the representative government doesn't cooperate in this new partnership they have the power to correct the representative government they have the power to correct it in what way i mean outlaw the senate they could outlaw this supreme i am a hot i'm really trying to understand but the thing you're doing is a national initiative thing here it's parallel to the existing system and it's one that involves i can see outreach it that i know i thought i heard guys say that well never mind well and it's independent it's made in the pendant of represented government by the creation of an electrode trust and so this electrode trust will just supervise the policy and make sure the electrode trust does not get involved in the issues of initiative but then accommodates and administers the procedures for the people to function now we're talking about a initiative process at every jurisdiction of government in every juristic at the city council level the county level using all the same procedures using the same electoral base because the first thing the trust is charged with is to go out and register all qualified americans for life none of the stuff of playing games in every state and every initiative election you and i here in new york want to have an initiative election you and i want to do that and we want to do that and we want to have it put up into that if there is you know we're advocates so we now turn around and we call up the electro trust and say this is what we want to do and they will do like they do in congress they will assign some attorney a staff look at what we're wanting errol what's legal when you amend the constitution that's it there's nothing else beyond that so the supreme court doesn't come in and declare an amendment to the constitution unconstitutional all they can do is interpret it they can declare laws unconstitutional but they can't touch the constitution and just as a side bar one of the things we have in our member the constitution is the outlawing of all monies in the initiative process that do not come from a natural human being which means you corporation that's right you know put the nail in the coffin to corporate for your coming up against the deed to vested interests that run the society now of course yeah and you're coming up against the oh yeah you know it we feel it we've been blacked out of the media i go on c span once by accident and we took a spike and we only have nine hundred and thirty some odd votes ok we're not a threat to anybody get yeah but but election from august to november really ok and episodes then they're going to pick and select twelve candidates that are going to buy for the president he's going to debate and they're going to be winnowed down yeah over these ten  we can empower you as a citizen to vote for the law or vote against the law this is have anything to do like what mr perot used to talk about no way did he was off the track he had to people and we had this notion of what he called town hall meeting and h how to operate why and how his town hall would meeting would do to be like a glorified poll after you after the town hall decided that it would go to the powers that be to decide whether or not they want to do it yeah i mean give me a break that's just another shell get  get get a qualified so we can go get petitions and there's percentages or we can take a poll we can take a poll and probably there's enough people out there that one had this happen and so that was sort of qualified the next  the amendment you can read the law and you can also read the parish report which is a detailed analysis of each one of the sections of the law and i got to tell you a person can see if he'll spend the time to read awestruck the procedures that we're using in this are no different than the procedures we use in the congress and they're no different and you haven't we're not reinventing anything we're taking the procedures that representative government use and we're putting them into a law electoral trusts can begin its processing processing this amendment or this idea so you get a concept yeah when i was a senator i could introduce a piece of legislation the fact that i was a senator qualified me to do what i citizens that are absurd or something you know they could be everybody's fault she should be green or zuma and you know and then you have a thing where to eliminate that kind of because that's what a lot of the cognisant they seem to think is that people are an ass so the people do not know people to have problems with this the odd merry citizen understands this really well because they know they're getting screwed yeah that's why they're not even participate right yeah right increasing that round the world i think do you know crowd and maybe the world also just yeah the that's a professional and then they're going to have a hearing now the hearing can use modern technology you know we may want to you do it on t v interactive t v however they do it now and then you and i will be on one side the table and members from the congress deliberative body that's like a committee in the congress and a committee goes over this deliberative body goes over the hearing record they can bring in experts they can bring you and i in and talk to us about what they want and then they can even amend what we're now but stop and think when we now go to final vote you know and the and the electrode trust publishes the record of the deliberative committee which says this of this and this will destroy our chances of getting any votes so we're going to be smart and we're going to go along with the amendments ok that's the clever thing to do well that sounds like we're in the congress of the united say no no no no not yet and i don't now the hearing record and the deliberation thousand initiative in it in those twenty wrestling and they've never bankrupted us they they've never done anything very bad you've got faith in the people well this whole you are really from is the premise yeah  all of this what i'm saying is on reserve faith in the people if you don't have that done better than the leaders well the let me show you what would you what would you have faith in a decision made by the majority of five hundred and thirty five members of congress who are affected by money on the issues they're just or would you have migraine machine in the majority of one hundred twenty million people were do you was my five seconds are running out as are yeah but i got lost on top of mt mckinley i went back if only i went up and i went to railroad to get off it there and you go up and you get a moment and i got up and it was beautiful weather was august my and there were bears and it was  lovely and i was reading the roll and it was wonderful and all the sudden there weather change and i got there were no trees and i was there and it must have been a four thirty hour walk back i had i was dumb i would have died on that moment i may decide it is beautiful i the initiative yeah they do they do yeah it's one of the twenty four states but but here again those initiatives are not the best initially are and what we're talking about is setting up a procedure where the people operate independent yeah yeah and and it will all depend on the people the people want to study it learn about this you know we bring visibility people get interested the people want to be empowered them whole show this overwhelmingly problem is not aware that there's a process that they can empower themselves and it's not providing for what's changing is the technological extension of our consciousness and we're coming we're to a point won't destroy those species now but i'm thing new is wrong when i may be maybe we'll have to advance our political governance yalom to the level we have in our scientific area rajouri they will devote all kinds of things for themselves and then that will be the end of the responsible government well that's what i got to tell you a good conservative that's right and the facts are just the opposite really that i got a hundred years of experience in the people who have never voted to shower themselves with the treasury now orange county has new york city has all of the various governments that are on the federal government on the verge of bankruptcy today with the debt we have and yeah  proposing this in the end you're going to have a situation that is going to be able to be based among the people and so what i tend to think economics of it but you're going to have a system is going to be in the end it will be under in the end it will be understood by an able to be gone along with the people who had a stake in terms of the traditional patterns that this system would be in a certain sense altering a new paradigm they'd be able to go along with it so it's not a revolutionary on with their heads thing well not quite the contrary yeah ok paradigm yeah the people are more conservative than their leaders the growth of government comes from people running for office like myself bribing their constituency to vote for a guy that in there bribing them with their money yeah that's right hold it right where he says yeah just a great big and of course the lobbyist come in with a little more money now right so but now what we're saying best government money can buy great right now is stop and think we have one hundred years experience and the experience demonstrates overwhelmingly that people are more conservative than their leaders and you can ask why their money that's why and so the fears that we have of the mob yeah there are a lot of fear that yeah that were being unfairly taxed and most of the representation in the state legislature was from the boston area and now shake captain cheney who was a captain revolutionary war said well we're fighting for exactly what we fought the revolutionary war for what he didn't understand that he was a party to the elites and you leeds had structure let me go back to the cliche i said yeah that is the revolutionary war was fought over home rule so that we would have rule in this country it was fought over who would rule the home because the people who were ruling it home continued to rule at home except for those tories that  with about a third so i think about a third were tories so they set up a structure that they locked in themselves you know the power now we get a lot of rhetoric about you know how wonderful they were and if they're all giants and they're all the greatest luminaries  you know this labor theory of value that informs all the economic theory which in terms informs the political process in a very large sense we're all keynesians we're all this it really isn't a certain sense if it's true that the labor input to production is becoming on a curve it's almost hyperbolic where what's really creating wealth increasingly are technological instruments and corporate assets or assets like that and those are all held by relatively small percentage of the population everybody supposed to get a income for their life purposes by having a labor relationship to production and that's being undercut we've got a real problem in that because the market is used to call it wage we do live in a slave system and and it's accepted in here in a  is equal to fifty percent of the world population or something they get more concentrated and it serves only the top elite few you're going to end up a situation where it's going to be guillotine time in terms of a massive uprising against an on workable system both politically and senator from alaska ninety six nine hundred eighty one you've got this national initiative given the hand it is really worth going to everyone's invited invited to go to the site and again you say it we're going to have it up but it's an eye for the number for  show time oh ok that would be a great outlet and i'd like it ladies other people right who knows we could be the opportunity is to bring national attention down on the solution for the people to govern themselves absolute which is they're not being made aware of obviously because media does not want to make them aware i think there's a lot of people be interested in this i mean everyone overall go to your site and look it up in good in depth because you really given a lot of thought this is really an interesting idea taken us twelve years  society is it the corporation or you know the people or government officials of the corporations control government official i say you know if they do it from behind yeah i see what it really interesting and it's really going to speak to what concerns a lot of people i think we're through mr lee right yeah ok so