ever yes yeah and we're going to talk about the after we like this topic yeah and what we want to talk today show is all about the afterlife and the afterlife is sort of the life that you have after something you know like what is the after like an after party yeah it's like an after party it's sort of like like that sort of wind down or something like that and i was i'm very curious as to where is the first time that you ever stu we were joined by joe b s a cure this week i was the first time that you ever heard somebody try to explain what the afterlife was and how did that affect you that's sort of what it is and i'm going to tell a story as i was i was in religious instruction class you know like first graders something and of course they're telling us all bit you know why you should do this and why she do that why should do it with the church tells you to do it all that stuff and this is and that and the big reason they take kind of big sack of candy they're holding out there is because you're going to want to go to heaven right and usually some very well thinking well meaning kid raises their hand and says excuse me why do i want to go to heaven now the nun is out there trying to tell everybody to go to go to heaven right and she has to come up with an answer well she can't just hit the kid right there because these are first graders and they only get religious instruction cause they're only company or once a week  can't really beat the kid crap out of the kid so you really have to come up with another another reason so she's going in and she says well heaven's a really nice place everybody's really nice to you and it's really fun all the time and like kids are kind of squished interfaces together in a class kind of going like you know you're not selling this here why is this better p r than that right and so it is this whole conversation really struck  you know and i was six years old so i was trying to do the right thing and try to believe everything that authority figures are telling me so i'm buying it but still why would you want to go to heaven so doug start with doug doug do you remember the first point counterpoint can we do that yeah you can you can because i know that's where this is going but no we don't have to i'm just curious about it because here's a song that we've just been working on and it's all it is called in heaven no those are nasty this is a that's a hell instrument if ever i heard on c n n that's where your conceptions wrong ok all of our educate me all of our personal definition of what makes us happy do you remember that and that was exactly what the force of that movie was is that this woman wants to go to hell she doesn't want to go to hell but she kills herself and because she commits suicide even though she's lived a perfect life ye she has to go to hell and so then she says well if i'm going to go to hell i might as well do something that's worth going to hell for when they send her back for a year ok yeah i remember what sin is she going to commit you know it's like mrs menes as you possibly can and then at the end of this movie they put her in this basement with a bunch of crazy people with like a handful of crazy people that's what hell will you know so now that she's become lost filled yeah there's no one who cares about it around her yeah so that's that's her hell that yeah so what would your heaven be then joe although it's obviously the the absence of any sort of anxiety and suffering i look at it as kind of one is not there for the other is i see what i mean but i want to go back to a time with same because i think it was very simple when i was a kid all you have to do is define a hill in order to make heaven palatable they may try to do that right but it was one thing to sort of hold this acts like you don't want to go here right you want to go here and the kids the kids  thoughtfully said why do i want to go to either one of these places when is that you've got to go to one and fear is the strongest emotion that we have right so use it then the kids were in my class and this was an actual discussion in my class was like how do i know that one of these is any better than the other well you're too young to understand pain i suppose you're six years old yeah i think about that that discussion you know because these kids were very honest about this you know and the teachers like they're going  faced maybe a little angry you know what are you kids trying to pull is that they were trying to pull something on her so doug do you remember hearing the first time with somebody to try to describe what happened with i don't remember the first time i grew up in a very religious household and had trouble with the you know what they were trying to sell me to remember when i was ten the minister had a had a question an answer day anyone could read questions and he would answer them and i submitted my question and i remember being grossly disappointed by how he really didn't answer it at all and then at age nineteen i realized the only reason i believe what i believe is because someone told it to me and that's not a good reason i should believe things because i have a personal reason to believe things and so i stopped believing everything at that point and so so i mean and i've had kind of those pivotal moments to seeing behind the curtain and not seeing the substance that i had been led to believe was the right but it wasn't specific to heaven or hell it was kind of the whole bigger picture and i guess i guess what i think is that many times people are trying to explain this from their own viewpoint what reality is from their own viewpoint and their viewpoint may not be in the same same as my so i have a parable about this that you tell you after  talking about i would agree with which is surprising because joe expected we wouldn't agree so i don't agree with that so i'm i'm i'm very i decided not to get into a personal debate because it is interested in learning from zen master and finds this zen master and begs to be taught about heaven and hell and the zen master looks at him and says no i'm not going to teach you turns and walks away and this of course a very rude to the samurai who you know still you know calms themself and runs a meal after and says no no please you know master a humbly beseech you i want to learn from you please teach me about heaven and hell and it's and master says get you have no honor you have no master even your sword is resting my going to teach you are such a barbarian as yourself and rages the samurai he draws a sword prepares to cut down the zen masters and master says that is hell and it stops the samurai pauses and puts a sword away and is a master says and that is heaven i am always there we go you know you yours into heaven or hell waiting for us we make them we carry them it is what we what we define as having her hell is our heaven or hell and this is why i have a hard time with the concept of the kind of the through the child's version of heaven that  place where everyone is wonderful and beautiful and everyone gets along and everything is good because that place doesn't seem possible to me because where is it most of your hell comes from in your life it comes from your r decisions the relationships you have and not because anyone wants to be mean but because you have different goals you have different viewpoints you care about different aspects of things and that causes all the drama  disagree that that's what causes the drama i think the drama drama that you're just described would come from our inability to understand ourselves yeah but see a given that we are driven by those motivations by our you know things we think we want and things we think we don't want why is that going to be different in heaven why would people souls somehow still no longer have things they wondered care about i  well maybe maybe what you're suggesting is that in heaven you have no self deception i mean i don't know but to me it's a fascinating question and i like to think about you know what is the true nature of reality this is  my pet peeves is that sometimes people told us that we can contemplate what them true nature of reality is and i think that they have been have failed to communicate this to me so i feel like why is that why is that this simple little idea that is what is reality that everybody should know about is never really sort communicated to me to my satisfaction you know and i there must be a reason for that there must be a reason that because we're keeping it a secret from you i think it does come down to what you're willing to sacrifice to gain it truly because that to me is what heaven is well what are you willing to sacrifice to gain that reward and their wealth khans if the reality listening is yeah which is really you know i've been doing some some reading recently and it's turned my head it's not the literal it's kind of peeling back the layers all about and i realize that the price that you've got to pay to earn heaven is a heck of a lot more a hell of a lot so to speak higher than most people really and that road is so narrow you know terms of how many people really qualify especially in our dana age that i don't think i qualified it with you so we've got good news for you we're all going to hell and tom and guy leading that's right and we're taking you with us we have a light we have a all day but it's hot in the sun worth cool right now just out of town you've got pigs and cows but most of all it's flat yeah i've got my car well i could go by just coasting make the most of my gas mileage it makes me smile just see that the horizon it is not anyway thank you very much freer for this wonderful and lively conversation that we had with mr job because to me i always like the idea that that we have questions that we don't have an answer to i have all the answers and that's what i've always liked about unitarian churches is they say you know the answers aren't importance the questions that are important i think that is that is true all of it but i willing to contemplate the answers you know aussie always says that you put anything in front of him and he is pretty sure that he'd be able to improve upon it so if you talk about your understanding of truth in the same way you know no matter what you feel you understand you should be really striving to try to understand it better so this whole philosophical discussion i think wraps up with one inescapable truth heaven is the time in doug's show every week yes thank you very back to this little slice of have a next week thank you thank you show because merely because we got