shock going into the west bank it was nothing like what's portrayed in our media or what we hear in the newspaper i was astounded that such an environment could exist and were totally uninformed before you actually went to novelists you must have had some premonitions or some feelings about the middle east i found out about palestine children's free leaf and and online in making a contribution as a christmas gift to my daughter and the more that i read about  e situation there in the west bank in and in gaza is it seemed to me that there were people here that were in think i was influenced by a palestinian president that i had in internal medicine rotation that used to describe  life in palestine in the west bank and what a need there was there for medical care for the children palestinian children were your family supportive of this move at all i was retired at the time mainly indulging my own retirement without much purpose and they thought that doing something like this would be good with your choice promised on you didn't your latin america so there must have been some developments mentally came your way we have heard and more still hearing just the israeli side of the story i thought that this would give me a chance to observe firsthand life in the west bank what it was like for palestinians what was it like when you actually arrived anomalous i described the environment as oppressive right away as soon as we checked  in across the border coming from jordan there were people young people all with m sixteen s walking around it was a police state it was very oppressive they were like like they were corralled as as you know you go here you you do this you follow my orders and there was no sort of conversation coming from the palestinian people they were all under the control of these many young people with her m sixteen s how would you appraise the medical situation in this occupied town novelis well they have operating hospital sara that i they're a bit rundown maybe even obsolete by american standards but what i found was that the staffs that work in these hospitals are extremely well trained and  dedicated and then physicians and surgeons that operate there do the best they can with limited supplies what they don't have specialized care and to a large extent they  they're dependent upon people voluntary ing and coming in doing surgery such as i was involved in cleft palate cleft lip open heart surgery is performed usually by this fitting  surgeons from the united states or europe they have no accessibility to the israeli hospitals for the israeli medical community so there is a great need for these people with the many medical problems that they have the israelis make it difficult for volunteer professionals to help in the occupied territories they don't help the process of gaining insurance or it's a lot of paperwork just checking through the border my experience was we waited for hours when other people were going through the lines to actually check in to the for their transportation on into  west bank the chief surgeon in our mission it's related that this is the way it usually is he'll have to wait for six hours when occasion it was eight hours and he surmises that this might be due to the israelis trying to discourage professionals from coming in and providing services for the palestinians with that sort of begs the question why would the basic medical care to a population be responsible for you'll hear from palestinians  they want to they the israelis want to make life so difficult for us that we will leave and so this is just part of it seems like  overall agenda to make life uncomfortable enough where the palestinians will leave immigrate let them immigrate but when say immigrate to another country they probably won't allow them back in no you were the recipient of some wonderful arab hospitality the whole pond so going in there i was since sure what i was going to get what i received as open arms and gratitude for coming and their hospitality although many of them have barely enough to get along along on they share whatever it is that they have with you and they they love americans they don't necessarily like our government policy towards them but they love americans you mentioned in your book that there's economic development kinds potations system for israelis is very  events palestinians farmers merchants when they are bringing goods into one of the townships they must unpack everything and also very limited in what they can bring in to into their townships the idea of operate within townships like novelists they don't go in to the townships thems selves except when they're conducting an operation for terrorists everyone's a terrorist cell at night times oftentimes a brigade or a group of israeli soldiers will come into the city from based upon information that they've got from an informant and they will hunt out people that they deem as a threat to israeli security you mentioned the story in your book about a pregnant woman was door was kicked and the i d f was chasing a rock thrower into the refugee camp and they busted through the this one door where they thought he had entered knocked it down and saw a person sitting on the couch fired a shot this one was a pregnant well advanced and watching t v and but we never hare accounts like that in our press you also make a point that there are refugee camps novelis being the township jason to it or refugee camps can you describe those and give us of just a flavor of what they're like there concrete block compounds with narrow alleyways they've been merged from the tent cities that were an initial set up for the refugees out of the one nine hundred forty seven and over time the refugees with the help of the united nations has been able to secure building materials to build up these very rudimentary buildings there they're bleak they're densely populated or think they're among the highest most densely populated areas on the planet how many generations are or now residing in these refugee camps adults that were forced off their lands are still alive and still living  their course or children are as are their grandchildren and in some cases their great grandchildren so we have up to four generations four generations  now when you return from this was your physical journey you started your moral journey in ernest can you tell me what was going on mentally after you came back safe and sound in seattle there was some anger that i had in knowing that my country was supportive of this oppression that was going on and there was also curiosity as to why we were supporting an oppressive occupation you have an infamous quote by a rabbi in your about arabs will be as drugged and sex in a bottle when they complete their occupation i found when i was researching material for the book was the racism  overt racism that zest in israel and the low regard that they have for the palestinians and i thought that express the  israeli settlements the majority of israelis had it for the palestinians and you went into another war another one by dog wineglass rather and from us there which i guess some people would say is proof of the cleansing as a state policy is quote was in cutting off food supply well we may not starve of it but it will be like let's say putting them on a diet or is there any doubt that the occupation is brutal and retaliated by design look at the un resolutions against israel condemning them for their human rights abuses and breaking of international law it's very well substantiated in the united nations and by all of the  what the israelis want to do with them so they live with great fear and anxiety after return and you started probing morally you seem to have some conflict over anti semitism personally can you describe that process there's a feeling that maybe you're you might be sayin something politically incorrect by bringing up  the subject of the israeli palestinian conflict you that for sure to rewrite your book yes i did when i first came back and started thinking of the  the idea of writing the book i was angry i was angry at what i had seen happening to people there and what are what our government is and volved in and so i made some accusations all we all were founded on what i had seen but over time i thought this is harsh is too harsh people people aren't going to want to read something as i've written here so it isn't that ironic where you know most people would say defending human rights is laudable but not when it is going to be sm israelis jewish israel while he doesn't allow us to stop their violation of palestinians and certain principles that we hold dear i would describe it more israeli zionist lobby that we have in this country and there they seem to use two devices to hold their position and to further their agenda the first one is they refer back to the holocaust that's part of their image that they project as victims the other part of their attack is to anyone that would say anything negative about israel that is then labeled an anti semite however trued the situation that you're describing in israel is how violent it is how cruel it is how true it is is negated by an accusation that you're an anti semite you mentioned in the book ject of the lobby and jewish organizations the stop people from really having the same kind of discourse that the israelis can have about their own acknowledged racism this is a topic that's discussed openly and  israeli social psychologists have done studies that point out that the racism is part of the israeli patrick they don't need to hide behind any sort of propriety that is thrust upon us here in this country you think that america can thing a very very successful lobby fraction can actually afford in a way the process and western morality i think it's pretty obvious at this point that we went to war in iraq for the benefit of israel i think it will be even more obvious that if we do go to war in iran it will be on behalf of israel for which we will receive no benefit so what's being suggested here very strongly that there is some disloyal actions against the national interest i think so i think so there is individuals in our congress but we hear all the time about the special relationship from these congress i don't i've never ran across and he's the actual relationship the terms of the special relationship britain anywhere this here is israel our treasure and our media if you're an issue in your mind with some americans having dual loyalty with israel not just with israel i think people in this country ought to be americans first our loyalty should be only to our country and i see this especially pronounced with certain zionist in this country whose first loyalty is to israel this includes congress people whose legislation that they introduced is focused entirely upon enhancing the strength and power of israel and suppressing the palestinian population those people are not living up to the oath that they have taken to defend the united states and  to hold the security as their primary loyalty of this country so and i would apply that to anyone anyone that has a loyalty to and they come to america they benefit from america they live in america they call themselves american you can't have a lawyer altie to another country this issue is only really pertinent when we consider israel very much so because there  are there is an agenda in this among these people these scientists in this country hardline zionists to you as the the financial resources military response resources r r image or credibility they don't mind using those and wasting those for the benefit of where their first loyalty lies you go into quite some detail in the second half of your book about you name names and i say i tone down the tenor of the book as i rewrote it but that's one item that i did not tone down like i can't because i'm angry with these people that are using my country to have you if people viewers watching would get your book and the understand we might be able to get the discourse back in time so that it benefits actually the american jew that's gone astray and we call them zionist and also it would benefit israel so it doesn't go off the moral geo political cliff again this isn't my original idea this bin has been brought up by career diplomats out of the state department does israel want peace only at an extreme cost to the palestinians in which they can fence off the small palestinian population in the west bank or they can make life so miserable that that they the palestinians will leave the west bank that would be their idea of peace no they do not want peace they could have a range for  peace look at that span what forty five years that have a people under occupation you know the only other example i can think of something to that extent is the soviet empire the evil empire there they don't want really peace with the palestinian people so much as they want all the land from the mediterranean to the jordan river and they would like most if not all of the palestinians to lete what we're hope for viewers reading your book what did you want them to get one of the purposes was to tell the palestinian side of the story as as has never been heard or if it's h of discussing this issue in this country i believe that it would be healthy for our foreign policy in our individual lives if this could be discussed in an open and an open manner and on course and honest manner and in a rational way and that we were in fact permitted to be able to talk about the israeli palestinian conflict and also with the hope that people would explore themselves have to reading the book that they would go  be curious and up and and interested enough to go out and find for them out themselves what the reality is that eventually we could tell our legislators our congress people that are we want to have the united states policy and united states policy that is fair for all people fair and it's balanced which is really what the deans of international policy in this country have advocated for years but they've been shouted down dr brian story i want to thank you for coming on and sharing with us your your book and your feelings your which you've described as your moral journey that continues to this day i hope this inspires a lot of people to at least discourse about israel what they're doing and basically to go toe to toe with racists wherever you find them thank you very much thank you for having me