philosophy and we're very happy to be able to present that to you it's a little old and so forth and i hope you might enjoy it i just want to mention that he had the idea of anticipatory design science he was always a pall comprehends of his to thought about rather than thinking directly political to address the problems of the world is to come up with design in order to create in the world through good design a world that makes possible the good of humanity to come out rather than trying to x or size them to be good in some sort of a more traditional sense a major voice in my thinking perhaps the most important polymath or comprehensive thinker in the history of mankind i'm very happy that we've had this tape revive we had lost track of it and we got it back recently and it's about fifty five minutes of a program with dr fuller help hope you might enjoy it i just want to get one quick plug in for a book now massive change by bruce smile and this is a book that's out in the stores now and it's got reference to fuller carbon sixty that kind of thing and other people of the design level you enjoy the program very honorable dr r buckminster fuller that before i'd like to welcome you very very much a conversation i thank you for for coming here to the program  greeting and the welcome but also that you know that i'm quite confident that if i'm and the significant use of tall is because i am really a demonstration of  not try to solve things in the tentative or the going game of money all politics may be yeah right well you have set out consciously to comprehensively take the measure or to understand the workings of nature and in keeping with nature's pattern to understand the evolution of consciousness and the ability for man to appropriately bring design or bring life support capability in keeping with that nature's design discovering that to the maximum benefit back some will benefit of the human family and a comprehensive mold which has been quite unique and at this particular moment in the evolution of consciousness is extremely valuable and very important and i would personally like to thank you very very much for the activities i know that you've been engaged in for over fifty years in a particularly interesting manner and gauging the evolution of consciousness and our ability to something that cannot be apprehended just by brains right brains of any other creature that because brains always and only grow knitting the information input from the touching the smelling the hearing  and making up packages of those inputs but mine described as relationships existing between a special case packages that are not in the discovered over one hundred thousand new wants is of information that was so different that it really needed their own and that they would have been able to agree on one hundred thousand words knowing how to do good as human beings and come to an agreement well but we was that not enough when i was there we were doing only a tackling science that was how are you going to kill to see which one is going to do to survive it's true that's been the history of the human condition has been a condition of scarcity and it's you who has postulate and there would be a new kind of condition began to be run of a new majority assigning of our planetary design priorities and it would seem to me that you had been gauging that with such an incredibly accurate kind of  ability that was in a sense what you need i don't think there are too many people now who have a fundamental sense that we may be on the dawn of a new capability to realize surpluses the basic on why muslims are going to assigning desire to have their eyes saw that they were and how we do bring in the wind power do bring in the hydrogen powers and so it was and it actually can be done by nine hundred and eighty five dollars i knew that because i made the measurements for now i have a really large team and i've been able to  so one of the principles i think that would make it possible for us to realize through design as opposed to some sort of a political of expedient use of the old technologies will be the principle of the former is a more constantly through design being able to do more with less and you mentioned your of course famous structures which is it is the most efficient means of inclosing space that's an example of doing more with less and this means that we're becoming more exponential capability and it just makes one wonder sometimes whether or not a planetary systems are planetary political economic and political social organizing assumptions assumptions which had all been geared to a condition of scarcity as the condition in which the evolution of consciousness of the human drama had been transpiring and i don't know if this moment on the transition is such a fundamental kind of one time unprecedented fundamental transformation that we're experiencing now that it does bring with it certain common difficulties on the part of people who have had their identities and their senses of purpose and so forth constrained to the old  organizing so it's a question it's a question of somehow being able to in a sense raise consciousness or perhaps a process of mutual educational process to the real realities which is the princip task by which the general citizenry may be able to get a sense of the quite optimistic realistically optimistic condition that space ship earth is at this moment and perhaps beyond the kind of negatively negative feelings that are accompany dis this this is the optimal production capability of the old systems in which they have found them so so a process a participatory education or world game on a large scale is perhaps the  principal challenge or the interesting challenge that's before us now i would like to think that your perceptions most certainly are absolutely crucial to the means by which we can begin to have that information structure within a technological context which can provide for a mass kind of absolutely universe to economics and to political economics is the model that is fundamental inadequacy of fundamental scarcity therefore all politics are based on the fact there's not enough the capitals when it may be it's not that way how we discovered that really is enough to go around and then find that politics are really now obsolete people so used the idea i got to have a leader yeah they also have that would  of universal law of universal or universal consciousness but as we say we refer to the old system by which the planet's been operating and we can have a sense of a new capability that's game gleaned or able to be realized through min to perceive this it's possible to conceive also that the great numbers of the general citizenry of the united states who perhaps might be viewing this particular program through an extended cablevision system linked through satellite capability it might be difficult for them to realize that if their identities are or their immediate securities are wrapped up in the premises of the old organizing assumptions the political structure of which they are a part it if i don't i have a feeling that it would have to be dealt with in a way we can't do it with me nor the old pattern which we've been operating or that we bring a process by which those in them will realize that they are able to participate in a part of this as well because if we're having a fundamental change and we have a if we have a condition from a historical condition and a dalek tickle pattern whereby a new system wiped out the old system that had been established then those people in positions of responsibility for the old organizing assumptions the political leadership or whatever kind of position it leaders or fear took a minor change which is feeling abroad in the land and that perhaps for the st time in the evolution of consciousness we have the opportunity by where through a process of conscious reading a conscious understanding and they're part of a transference from the condition of scarcity to surplus but the fundamental change can happen in a moment where nobody loses including those who've been responsible for the old way as that evolution however is at work and you and i didn't invent that universe we didn't invent that planet we didn't invent those laws and there's something much bigger i always thing to do is to stand on the privacy of those around not the things that are happening less the way the country right now but that didn't this was always true yes but now it's out in the open side up i we have a young world yes it's becoming disillusioned with the idea that how you get solve a problem is about politics they're beginning to really say how does all of its parts and when i begin to think of myself in terms of the means by which we might be able to make the transference consciously i have this sense thing that we must be safe from the young world's position who would look at the historical condition that has been inherited in the people who've been responsible for operating in systems which were established in the assumption of scarcity and in the general condition of ignorance by the people in those assumptions of scarcity that there be a careful kind  appropriate universal mind's functioning that there be a careful means of including without extra looting the elder right members of our human family who have been operating within that historical condition and  they could be done to i think the sooner they could be understood what it is that is transpiring i think the sooner we would be able to begin to function in a way that could engage each of the citizenry of the planet which it seems to me would be part of maximal kind of engagement on the part of each of us is a sort of part of a synergistic pattern by which we might find our our place and universe so that we really do need to have the the participation of everyone within the society in a way that is from inside that they're part of it and so that would be right it's a tricky thing and sometimes it's a transference that's hard for a lot of people to realize but i think it's essential so in a sense the the real question is to get to the people the political response of all the industrialists and so forth with information as to how things can be done differently and why i understand and we can all go together and then that would be in itself would be a process of education or a process of getting the good information to people with economy of language that can end it with integrity and the system that respects the integrity in the economy of the language and the means by which this process of national participation in consciousness raising could take place characteristics that are interesting really local characteristics might be amplified or at least the ones that it's interesting if i make pursue that you're talking about the activities of the multinational corporations we have had some programming that to be with the people responsible for certain of the multinational corporations and they have made it clear in their in their discussion that they are aware of the world around responsibility to have a world run constituency and can begin to move outside of the constraints of the so states although they're also aware of that historical pattern but this is an entirely new kind of world around activity they're having and one thing if i may that they have indicated or in some program some of this we've done with them they have indicated their understanding that the productive process has been in the recent time and certainly the introduction of a surplus capability is the result of a technologically augmented productive system whereby the labor component to the productive process is steadily or has been in the modern era decreasing relative to the productive capability of technological systems introduced through man's metaphysical intellectual capability into the into the design and that is the instrumentalities of technology which are increasingly producing wealth as opposed to to labor and they have indicated to me their interest in economic systems whereby the citizenry of host countries in which they're operating around the world might begin to have a different kind of relationship to the productive process in the area they're working rather than strictly as laborers but that they might have a direct relationship to the technological systems or the technological machinery so that the wealth generated by that technological capability would accrue to them directly rather than trying to force them into the labor patterns which are redundant and are not necessary and are no longer necessary by the technological capability in fact it might be opposite to the best that the technological system to do but labor intensive patterns want a lot to happen because it's a pattern from the i wonder if you could comment on that if i feel that the i'm known wit to godly nonsense about to go out and living and say how do we really make it work i wonder i would like to just pursue that a little bit more may and even though i saw i saw dr stein herb's herbert stein who was the economic advisor to the president of the united states how the characterize economics as a science of scarcity which i found very interesting but i like to pursue that economics the question of economics and the means by which the people are to be related to the productive process very very briefly that if we were to envision a  mean a keynesian model that the united states primarily relates to a classical economy classical modified classical capital capitalist system or and marx in the system which much of the present world relates to in terms of  ideology both of those systems assume that the principle component of the productive process is labor and there is no mechanism built in formulating the owners i mean relating the general citizenry as owners of the technological instrument themselves there is one system that i have become aware of i'm wondering if you have a system of lewis carroll's who has proposed a proposal for relating directly the citizenry of the nation as owners of the means of production so that they have a means of gaining income other than a wage system or other than a government bureaucracy creating tax projection of a tax system of gaining income in order to pay it out which tends to reinforce anything that we're really proud of right extraordinary regenerative system and i think that is really that kind of who is going to manifest there would probably be there would probably be a period at the period of transition where there would be a certain kind of way in which we could talk to the system for the people responsible for the old accounting system for the way that the space in which they perceive of their activity and manners that they are going to be able to to understand and i don't i have just found that interesting myself it seems to me to make a certain sense that we were not going to be able to distribute our productive capability in the old way it is incumbent upon us who are interested in changing that to have a an alternate system that can be presented to those that are responsible for that old way again keeping in mind that they will be able to go along with it and it seems to me that this persisting does make some sense in that regard that period of of trend of the st transition of the of the wonderful might even be able to think about the content they were operating now we're taping a television program that to be carried by a cable television system in new york city and that cable television system is or the cable television system that is a national entity is a television system which is about to be linked there are very island that there are islands of cable vision capability around the country perhaps ten percent of the nation now is able to receive cable and cable is able to carry unlimited virtually unlimited carrying capacity as opposed to the bandwidth limitations broadcast television making now in terms of which general citizen dissipate and the consciousness raising it to the process that the cablevision system the satellite technology into a communication system with one other component which is  becoming successful on the planet and i think that perhaps that system in order to be functioning maximally so that each of us can that there is the need to have the best possible information available so that the people making the decision making processes involving participation in that that they be making those decisions and thinking in terms of the best information that is available or can be made available to them and they will know what i would think that the system is just now coming into being and it would seem to me entirely appropriate that that as that system comes into being that system of communication of abundance that of a program that be intrinsic to the very leading edge of the creation of that system the one that includes the this again would be critical to where the man makes it on the plot of the not that i think the table to was and it does exactly that moment it does have the capability of doing that and then i wondered also if we could pick up on this since we just have a few more minutes left but pick up or think about your perceptions of the means by which videotape documentaries that would be able to be fed into that cablevision system of distribution might be  creation of video tape documentaries that could be said into this cable system as a so there would be places to go to free a videotape documentaries that still makes good sense to me and i'm wondering if it does to you and ties in nicely to have information who are interested in having that information structured to maximally benefit the population of the planet so that the so that the specialized a special case experience is of some of our specialized professorship with very good minds could become the beneficially that there be a process by which the intellectual integrity of the videotape documentary does created that the intellectual integrity of beavers the responsibility of an individual and any doctoring up on the part of an artistic brought to the whole scenario of human evolution or evolution and universe is absolutely extremely important and i would like to and sorry for him right out of time but i'd like to thank you very very much for participating on conversations it's been an honor for you to be here that conscious evolution in universe and you're indispensable to that so thank you once again for being and for doing what you have done and for being here on the program and i wonder if i could say good evening now thank you very very much for you in conversations and tune in next week on conversations for another and lightening an un and lightning conversation really is always good talk on conversations