healing i'd like to call to order the liquid city council study session in the city in lakewood colorado on may seventh twenty eight hundred seven pm in council chambers will the clerk please call the roll call johnson h evening in the city in lakewood so we're going to get started and the clerk would please read item three into the record and i'll call in the thoughts and item three presentation sustainability awards ready good evening their name welcome and thank you for being here tonight for the presentation of the eleventh annual lakewood sustainability awards the city of lakewood established the sustainability awards program in two thousand and eight to recognize members of the lakewood community who are leading the way to a more sustainable future each year the city receives nominations for projects and individuals that are making an impact across a diverse range of achievement including climate action energy and water conservation economic resilience zero waste community cohesion public health natural systems in transportation each nomination is judged on the overall positive impact of the project how the nomination in braces innovation how the project overcomes challenges how it can be replicated by others and how it demonstrates initiative the city gives the following  use leaders are recognized with the defender of the planet award lakewood employees are awarded the bruce people's eco employee award and community members receive the community sustainability award along with the ceremony this evening the city showcases rips it b s of the liquid sustainability awards in three other ways the sustainability awards plaque lists all of ward recipients and is displayed here in the civic center to the left of the james j ritchie gallery which is right outside the door there the second tribute is a sustainability garden on the west side of the public safety building in recognition of each year's recipients the city also features the award recipients on the city website at lakewood dot org backslash sustainability awards over the past eleven years the lakewood community has demonstrated how leadership in sustainability can take many forms from two young women sorting recyclables in their cafeteria to a local business installing a renewable energy system for reducing its carbon footprint and saving money all of our password winners have moved toward becoming a more sustainable community and we thank you we'd also like to thank the sustainability awards evaluation committee members they work hard to ensure fair an equitable judging standards we truly appreciate their time and effort that goes into making these words in honor to win and i'm going to mention those people's names and hope to pronounce them accurately  so the sustainability awards committee is alecia williams grace holton a list of bogan sarah livingston lynn copeck and jonathan walked in he has a twelve day old baby r we'd also like to thank our community partner rubio's coastal grill for providing food for the wards reception that was held prior to the ceremony i hope you got to try some their generosity made the celebration of liquid sustainability leaders possible as we present awards tonight we'd like for the friends and families of the winners to know that it's all right for you to come up front and take pictures or videos of your of your famous winner you'll find the video of this or word ceremony online at lakewood dot org council videos and now it's time for the two thousand eight hundred sustainability awards first defender of the planet category the defender of the planet award is presented to youth eighteen years or younger for taking the initiative at a young age in the field of sustainability this year we have defender of the planet awards to present the first defender of the planet a word for two thousand and eighteen goes to the green mountain area homeschoolers for promoting safe coexistence between wildlife and our community through research creativity and education the green mountain area homeschoolers helped our community understand how we can more safely interact with surrounding wildlife the students began their project by interviewing staff open space and city of lakewood parks and our elected officials once they had a strong understanding of the issues the students took action the students focus their efforts on the younger generation with hopes of having a more lasting impact they set up interactive art displays at our earth day celebration and the bellmawr library and led small group presentations at a youth programs all around the city the students also design more than two hundred masks of local wildlife and created materials in english and spanish to reach an even wider our audience these use our model of how to communicate complex systems in a way that leads a more vibrant community if some of these faces look familiar that's because this is the green mountain home schoolers third consecutive defender of the planet o leaders and we applaud your contribution the second defender of the planet a word goes to the student council at dunstan middle school leading a school right energy savings challenge where they come dunstan middle school congratulations the denson no school student council formed a student energy club called energy bodies which lead their schools energy conservation efforts for state energy competition energy consumption was monitored and shown to all students using visualization to motivate students and faculty to reduce energy use the student leaders air broadcast announcements tata class audited the building hung posters created a teacher challenge and use the school messenger to communicate how energy was being saved in the building and how students could also save energy at home the students achieve second place in a state wide competition earning ten and ten thousand dollars for additional energy upgrades at the school that is an impressive group energy but the students rallied the entire school and supportive of their effort and shared their success with the green mountain sustainable neighborhood energy committee who have been through z acidly continue to spread these leaders energy conservation method message to take control of their environment and make a change in their community dunston student council congratulations and thank you for being sustainable  nice work folks ok next is the bruce people's eco employee category the bruce peoples equal employee award was created to reward initiative and leadership from city employees there's a word was named to honor the memory of bruce peoples a dear friend and a longtime lakewood employee committed to environmental awareness during the course of his work we are proud to have his memory live on through the innovation and dedication of our city employees this year we have two projects that will receive the employee eco employee award the first bruce peoples eco employee of work goes to the zero waste champions at the eleventh avenue tracy slew salis and marie moke congratulations folks seven liquid's eleventh avenue and patterson head start facilities heard that compost collection was coming to their classrooms they jumped in with both feet with the first support of family services manager brendan burning grr and classroom corner kathy ireland six teachers became the zero waste champions for their classrooms ensuring the program's success by identifying the best locations and designed for zero waste stations and signs purchasing reusable compostable recyclable materials and then teaching the students about zero waste through their enthusiasm and diligence the zero waste champions created an immediate and lasting positive impact in the first five months of this program more than six thousand five hundred pounds of material rick composted at the eleventh avenue in patterson head start classrooms the program also improver cycling in the first five months of this program the classrooms are cycled more than three thousand pounds of material at this rate the classrooms will divert more than twenty three thousand pounds of material from area landfills each year thank you headstart zero waste champions and students for all your hard work congratulations older adult events hosted by the city of lakewood recreation division working to help others per personal health liquid recreation program or in a jones decided to improve the health of our environment as well in two thousand and seventeen a dedicated or she decided to implement a zero waste approach at the lakewood recreation earlier adult wellness fair and the learning at lunch events which reach more than one thousand two hundred individuals each year she began by educating volunteers and staff about zero waste practices and then expanded to purchasing recyclable and compostable materials for the events and encouraging the use of sustainable food vendors renee continues to inspire the cooperation and participation of other employees in zero waste practices and her passion for caring for our world other employees see her riding her bike recycling and even digging through recycling containers on occasion to make sure waste was put in the appropriate and that's dedication by by taking the initiative and leading by example rene shows us how powerful one individual can be congratulations and thank you renee community sustainability category the community sustainability categories intended to recognise projects and initiatives in lakewood that lead the way to a more sustainable future this year with fluor projects that will receive a community sustainability award the first community sustainability a word goes to eton senior communities and the lakewood bicycle advisory team for bringing cycling without age to lakewood generosity storytelling relationships and cycling these four principles guide the cycling without age program recently brought to the lakewood by even senior communities and the lakewood bicycle advisory team the program offers rides to seniors through the pedal power of volunteer cyclists the trashers have a comfortable to see chair on the front of the bicycle allowing for riders to enjoy a smooth slow ride in the outdoors while sharing conversation and stories with the cyclist since october two thousand and seventeen more than one hundred nine rides have been given to riders up to one hundred one years old that's really cool the program continues to grow with tri sho purchases by other local senior communities and neighboring cities cycling without age is a great example of how local businesses and community advocates can partner to create a truly remarkable program congratulations to  communities and liquid bicycle advisory team in two thousand and seventeen the nonprofit organization zero waste services hosted several events and initiatives to help lakewood residents make zero waste lifestyle choices the organization partnered with the climate center so in group  alameda gateway to provide reusable shopping bags milled from used t shirts to patrons of the liquid farmers market keeping old t shirts out of the landfill and preventing the use of single use plastic grocery waste services also hosted a sip and swap event sip and swap event where participants brought clothing to swap with other guests rather than purchasing new clothing extra clothing from the event was donated to the action center last but certainly not least the girls holiday dress collection help local families by collecting dresses and donating them to the early head start program given the dresses a second life in addition to these events zero way services host an online recycling guide for lakewood residents to find recycling locations throughout the city for a wide variety of items thank you zero waste services for your contributions to sustainability in lakewood and congratulations on this  the third community sustainability of word goes to the liquid heritage center volunteer gardeners for their sustainable gardening practices from plant from plant to plate and back to plant the liquid heritage center volunteer gardeners exemplify sustainable gardening the volunteers maintained five flower and two vegetable gardens annually march to november since two thousand and fifteen no herbicides fungus sites or synthetic fertilizer have been used in any of the gardens which means a lot of weekly hand weeding in two thousand and seventeen the vegetable to donate to the action center's fresh food pantry over one hundred twenty four pounds of surplus vegetables were delivered weekly to assist the action center in feeding our community at the end of two thousand and seventeen the gardeners collected and compost all of the garden waste generated throughout the season from weeding harvesting and cleaning the gardens in total the gardeners collected and composted one thousand two hundred fifty six pounds o material that will be turned back into soil to support even more sustainable gardening thank you lakewood heritage center volunteers for all of your work protecting our ecosystems and donating healthy healthy local food to our community thank you ladies all the ladies love that the final community sustainability award goes to the action center for their requote program each year the action center's requote program connects two hundred thirty thousand pieces of clothing to more than twenty thousand neighbors in need keeping approximately one point five million pounds of clothing out of the landfills as with many projects at the action center the program is driven by volunteers who use their creativity and dedication to continually improve the program the volunteers develop a color coded hangar system to rotate all clothing each week and donate longstanding items to arc thrift stores they also address how participants take their clothing home without using plastic bags or both the boxes of volunteer took extra donated t shirts and began s reuse and recycle platform and provided a way for action center participants to select clothing with dignity the program inspired the program inspires us to use our resources creatively within our homes and across our entire community well done and congratulations congratulations to all of the award winners your work is truly impressive thank you for making lakewood a more sustainable place to live work and play again we'd like to thank rubio's coastal grill for sponsoring the awards receptions and the members of the lake with sustain a bill i think i've said sustainability five hundred times just now and and missed it on the last one and there and would like to thank the sustainability words committee for organizing tonight's awards all right folks are starting to get resettled in miss houghton well done that is quite a script so nicely done and again i think from everybody up here it's always a great night and to see so many wonderful people doing great things for our community is what makes lakewood great and councillor franks did mention that you don't want to rub it in but there was a lot of green mountain winning so pretty excited about the all right so public comment tonight we have public comment after every presentation and this is different than our general public comment on the second and fourth one is comment tonight is reserved to really allow you to participate in the conversation before council so our first presentation is the permanent placement  railcar number twenty five and feel like to get signed up for the sign up sheets are in the back and michelle will grab those here in a couple minutes and they kick us off i'll start with miss nearly come on down and before before you start actually i want to just make sure i have a disclaimer here for folks and this was in the r c a so if you did read this on on the council website there  it's important to note that there's two considerations with this presentation first neither site lakewood heritage center nor daniels park has been vetted with the public and adding such a unique amenity to either location will require an extensive public outreach process we fully expect to receive both support and objection from the public to either location and second funding has not been allocated for furthering the project so it's wanted to make sure  when so i'm here tonight along with the card twenty five task force to provide you with an update of possible locations to relocate car twenty five along the historic route where it once ran last october we presented the results of the feasibility study to all of you to relocate the car to the lakewood heritage center after asking questions and discussions council agreed that the lake would heritage center is a viable location for car twenty five additionally council directed staff to explore possible locations along the historic route where the car once ran and in its original location there were concerns about car twenty five losing its national historic register status if it were to be relocated away from its original historical context there were also questions specifically about the oak street station location that had once been identified as the future home of car twenty five oak street is one of the locations that was evaluated by the task force and you will hear the pros and cons of that site tonight before getting into the details about these sites i thought it would be helpful particularly for the new counsellors to hear a brief overview of car twenty five's history and its relevance to lakewood so i'm going to just because i feel like keep it ok the denver and inner mountain in urban car number twenty five is a standard gauge rail car that was built by the weber car company in denver between nine hundred one nine hundred fourteen the weber car company built three hundred seventeen street and in urban cars car twenty five was one of these built at a cost of ten thousand six hundred twenty five dollars it entered service on feb seventeenth one thousand and eleven the car's forty eight and a half feet long a little over eight and a half feet wide and just over fourteen feet tall the car seats fifty two but it can hold seventy two passengers standing car twenty five is a double ended car with controls at both ends and it allows the motor person to operate the car in either direction without turning the car around the seats are also reversible as well louay riders if they choose to always face the direction the cars traveling and the car weighs fifty thousand pounds car twenty five operated on thirteen miles between denver lakewood and golden on route eighty four and you can see his model cursor you can see the route number right there it ran through like so it took forty minutes for car twenty five to make the trip from denver through lakewood to golden and this included fifteen stops at stations like barnum junction beehive white acres and morningside those fun the car would travel up to at speeds up to sixty miles per hour and this is a picture of car twenty five at camp george west which is in golden thousand fifty the rocky mountain railroad club purchased the car to save it from being scrapped or sold and the car was stored outside in a couple of different locations before it finally landed at the denver federal center in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight to be hundred eight the federal center has been the temporary storage location for car twenty five and although this has worked adequately it does not allow for the appropriate public access and we know at some point changes at the federal center will create the need for us to move the car and this is a picture of the car being relocated the federal center restoring card twenty five was really a labor of love it took about twenty years for the restoration to be complete it involved more than five hundred donors and they contributed over one hundred thousand dollars it was assisted by ninety six volunteers and they donated twenty four thousand plus hours of volunteer labor the car was restored back to its one thousand and eleven appearance and you can see here these two images of the before and after for car twenty five during the restoration the original dark green paint was discovered along with the original number twenty five and the black steps was safety first written on them car twenty five is listed on the national register of historic places as well as the colorado state register of historic properties car twenty five is important because it's the only known surviving example of a completely intact standard gauge electric in urban rail car of its type that was built by the denver weber company it's significant to lakewood because this car car twenty five actually ran through lakewood and transported many people from our community and ten the city in the denver rail heritage society who you may know is the denver trolley jointly purchased car twenty five each contributing thirty five thousand dollars at this time a citizen committee was for to explore locations and identify a site to place car twenty five several locations throughout the city were evaluated and the committee ultimately decided to look at to focus on the lakewood d street light rail station as the preferred future site for car twenty five the site was chosen due to its its proximity to the line where it once ran and the potential to transport car twenty five from oak street down to our partners on the platte using the future w line track that was a really key component of that conversation a concept plan for the oak street transit museum was created fund raising began in anticipation of opening the facility prior to the w line opening in two thousand and thirteen and in twenty eleven we celebrated car twenty five turning one hundred years old and that was the same year that it was added to the national register in two thousand and twelve our partners the denver l heritage society in the city mutually agreed that the city would become the sole owner of car twenty five and then we purchased the remaining shares from car twenty five minutes now and a slick city of lakewood artifact twenty thirteen was a key year light rail was on track to open and the idea of car twenty five and the transit museum as a driver of redevelopment shifted more realistically the transit facility would likely result result from a future public private partnership somewhere along the line this was confirmed through a study by the urban land its institute additionally issues related to the constrained footprint at the oak street site were identified in the hope that carter twenty five could one day be transported between oak street and the denver rails site on the platte was deemed to be improbable sixteen the lakewood heritage center master plan update sparked renewed interest in car twenty five and specifically there was interest in relocating it to the heritage center and so the car twenty five task force was formed to look at the feasibility of relocating the car to the heritage center in twenty seventeen the feasibility study was completed and it was presented to all of you and that was in october a route through bellmawr park with the facility at the l h c was identified as a feasible option and council agreed but you asked staff to explore options along the historic route and to bring those options back to you and so we are here this evening to present those options refund refresher the task force consists of nine community members who have a tremendous amount of rel expertise and or passion about real cars that includes our denver trolley board members with whom we've had a very positive ongoing partnership you i think you know this but the denver trolley volunteers are the ones that operate car twenty five for us so when we roll it out every summer they volunteer to come and be our motor people so in front of you is a car twenty five task force according callahan might cost throw steve elkins george myers they put in a lot of hard work so before you turn over the next part of the presentation to the task force just a few notes per councils direction the findings are  possible locations along the historic route there have been no formal feasibility studies and there have been no formal conversations with other jurisdictions property owners or neighbors these activities will happen after decision about a potential future location for car twenty five is made and now i'd like to invite taskforce member donald holman to come on up mr tallman is the executive of the colorado road museum he's a lakewood resident and he serves on liquids budget and audit committee donald also serves on the board of the heritage rail alliance which is an international association of tourist railroads and railroad museums he is also a recent inductee into the jefferson county hall of fame congratulations and here's donald thank you good evening my name's donald tolman and i'm pleased to be here this evening to help present the work of the car twenty five task force the task force has been working together with staff to identify a future home for car twenty five we're here tonight to present our findings related to locations along the historic route so this map shows the historic route from january of nineteen twenty here is denver lakewood and golden starting in denver the route moves west along what is now the w line into lakewood and here right here is the spur to the federal center and then on to golden and i'd be remiss if i didn't point out that the future site of the colorado railroad museum is located on that map right there and that the denver trolley is right in this area the task force looked at sites all along this route and enter the focusing our efforts on three locations harlan street right here where the loveland house is located oak street station and daniels park and then this is the w line a kind of meander south and west these sites were chosen based on how they lined up an agreed upon criteria it was also important to give oak street a fresh look due to its history with the car and rank it against other potential sites in evaluating these sites taskforce members were asked to visit each site and complete a matrix ranking each site on twenty different agreed upon criteria so the task force had previously agreed that the car should be stored in an enclosed building for security and to keep it away from the elements the car should run it shouldn't be on static display and that the site needed to accommodate track the ride should be longer than the point one nine miles that it currently has in the federal center which is a roughly a thousand feet and then it was important to retain the cars listing on the national register and finally sites should be able to meet the great requirements of operating a car we didn't want any site to have greater than three per so specifically the criteria that we looked at were was the length of the ride the historical context the national register whether it was the national register could  be in jeopardy if there was no historical context to the site did the site contain a historical root we were seeking the site with less than a three percent grade could it be seen from th that was an important criteria street crossings here we look for potential conflict with automobile traffic and in the case where the line did cross streets were the streets lightly used pedestrian conflicts again we look for minimal pedestrian impacts parking where there are existing parking lots or would new parking lots have to be developed staffing if it was a satellite museum it would require additional staffing whether it had utilities available and whether there were any utility conflicts the neighborhood impacts how close is the proposed site to homes within the area is it within city boundaries where there are potential jurisdictional concerns that would have to be addressed  any additional uses or utilitarian uses so can the ride serve as more than just an historic interpretive experience and then the view and the riding experience what's the view along the ride that attractive and the potential to add other amenities the potential for building expansion is there space to expand for other potential uses such as a museum the cost to install the track asphalt is more expensive than then building on dirt land in right away or ship are there property ownership easement concerns it would have to deal with the development time frame haul long would it take to complete the project in each one of those sites and then what would finally what was the floodplain impact so to introduce task force member pete west mr west is a retired xcel energy manager and current board member for the denver trolley who currently partners with the city to operate car twenty five you've likely seen the denver trolley transporting passengers along the rail at the south platte river from confluence park and r e i past the downtown aquarium it's a great it's a great amenity if you haven't done that when that's really  locating it here so here's west colfax on this map course harlan shirton is a little bit off the east one of our members dave schaaf took pictures of each of street this site was explored because of the connection of historic rail line to the historic level in the house william loveland was involved in building the rail line although he was out of the picture by the time  car twenty five came along he had passed away the task force considering consider locating a car on or near the level house with the rail running up and down harlan street to colfa it really did not rank very well and in any ever areas it did have the advantage that the grid works pretty well along the block it's relatively flat and it's closer to the hort historic route than say the lakewood heritage center but it fell short on number of important areas it's a very short ride point one two miles sort of the federal center route it lacks proximity to the original line it lacks  sense of place relating to car twenty five there is no parking and the car would run north and south down the street not the historic east and west alignment there also site constraints it's a very small footprint with really no potential for expansion the lovely historic loveland house and all the buildings along harlan are private property so moving along to oak street  we felt like we should revisit this site since it was originally done a fight is the site of the historic transit museum for car twenty five so for orientation purposes we have so street ranked high in a number of areas it's highly visible along its proposed route it's has great proximity to the original route there's a direct physical tie to the modern day real line you look out from car twenty five and you can see modern modern line one hundred years of history side by side if you will through its discussion the taskforce confirmed the challenges that were seen with the site originally it's a very small footprint just not much land available this and that small footprint impacts the design the turning radius getting the car out of the out of the site and turning it to on to oak street is very tight and there utilities on their proposed facility including the right lateral water ditch and questions about its ability to relocate that again additionally  ride is short it's point one mile one nine miles equal to the current federal center ride but no longer there's really no sense there of what was no visual historical historical tie limited parking and again the car runs north and south down the street not historic east and west alignment and there's really no potential for expanding the facility and it is our t v property it's their station site and parking lot of course so moving on to daniels park and i'm in the going to learn to run this in the right direction am i so to locate that here's colfax and of course the first bank headquarters have sims along here union well street and this is daniel park the facility in this proposal would be placed in the park and the line would run along its historic alignment down fourteenth avenue to union and possibly on to sim s the insect inset picture is from white acres road just right appear along the north side of the property facing facing east task force really most excited about this location for several reasons it locates the car in its original context the car and its route are really a part of the historic fabric of lakewood therefore the ability to retain its listing on the national register is high the adequate it's about a quarter of a mile to union and about a half mile to sims street costing seem manageable expensive infrastructure such as crossing gates the park land is owned by the city there's room to build a facility there's existing parking that potentially be expanded if needed they're complementary amenities and park uses and there is potential to add needed amenities in this area such as meeting in community space  there's also for tension for site improvements along the route there are some challenges to the site of course the proposed rail line crosses jurisdictions part of it's in an unincorporated jefferson county and i suppose i should point that out right now the the blue line as the city county boundary and the part on the outside is lakewood the right away ownership varies and there are neighborhood impacts so missed it again on the task force recommends placing car twenty five at the daniels park from all the sites we've looked at we feel that locating car twenty five in proximity to is historic route is most authentic the car will likely retain its national register listening and daniels park would provide a wonderful location for the car based on the reasons given a few minutes ago one of the t short video of the historic route for a car twenty five once ran and where we envision it could run again davis standing on fourteenth avenue midway between park avenue and union street so i'm going to play this video and it's pretty quick it's approximately twelve two hundred west fourteenth now looking north towards the cemetery and col and looking east toward simms i'm going to play that again because it was so short and i point out that what looks like me might be tracks sticking up through the snow is not actually tracked that's where cars ha driven and that snow melted first so just one more time for the fun of it is approximately twelve two hundred west fourteenth now looking north towards the cemetery and colfax and looking east toward sims ok so we get that all out right now we're going to give one of these for the rest of the night so i think you will get the claps and the boos and the hisses we'll get that all done with it will be good to go it's nearly yes so the thinking of pete donald dave and the twenty five task force they really put in a lot of hard work on this project so to summarize the potential route at the lakewood heritage center was presented to council last october and council directed staff to explore options along the car's historic route tonight the task force presented you with options and is recommending daniel's park as the proposed site along historic route as well as the overall preferred si city tonight we are asking you for direction and identifying a future site the lake would headed center and del mar park offer the benefits of being part of a larger museum site but the historical context is lacking in this location jeopardizes the national register listing daniel's park would function as a satellite location requiring additional staff support but the car would be located in its historic context in the project could potentially provide additional amenities to the neighborhood and the car would likely remain on the national register after you give us direction on our preferred site we will proceed with the strong public participation process and conversations with stakeholders including neighbors and affected jurisdictions the cars on both the state and national registers once a site has been identified staff will also work with history colorado to understand the implications and specifics of relocating car twenty five to the preferred site and maintaining its listing on these registers after a plan is in place design concepts will need to be created construction costs identified and funding mechanisms will need to be put into place and so now we will turn the conversation over to you for discussion and questions thank you all right thank you so i'm going to start with the public participation part of this agenda item and on behalf of the entire daniels well chester neighborhood the stuff he has requested ten minutes to speak so she'll be representing and again this is the opportunity to ask questions we're not doing pros and cons but trying to get a better understanding and i would encourage all folks of interest in this i think we all have great interest to start with a positive duffy i'm here representing the two thousand households of the daniels well chester neighborhood we have a long history with this trolley car this came through our neighborhood and it helped us grow it gave our neighborhood access to get to work in denver or to to get to golden it was part of the livelihood and helped us grow daniels well chester by the way we are celebrating our eightieth anniversary we were planted in  thirty eight so this is our eightieth birthday we will be celebrating that this summer but we are here our board voted to and we thank you for thinking of us because it is the historic route but our board voted to support the lakewood heritage center for this very important piece of our history the heritage center so much larger the heritage center is one hundred twenty one point four acres and our white acres station this structure where our stop was has already been relocated to the heritage center so it's already there placing the car now i think is kind of an afterthought the heritage center has so much more space for this to run and for it to be enjoyed by four by so many there's so many functions that are there side or days the concerts in the park the the kids field trips they all come to the heritage center to see the schoolhouse to see all the things that are located there in our wonderful museum we feel it would be selfish to put it in a small park in our neighborhood we would have hoped that had it been placed there we would have expected some revitalization of our little park but i don't see that really happening so i think the heritage center is the place for this is it would have so much more visibility people would know it exists if it's hidden away in a little nine acre park in the middle of our neighborhood who's going to know it exists right now it's at the federal center i took my grandkids last year it's wonderful they dressed up in vintage clothes and it's awesome my kids loved it but that's not going to have the disability there at the heritage at the federal center there was what five hundred people that came to write it i don't think our park can hold by five hundred people we know the heritage center can they have the facilities to handle the crowds they have the parking they have the bathrooms you can sell water and have vendors at the federal center there was lots of booths and lots of vendors we don't really have the space for that now the heritage  that was discussed before it was a bit ambitious i think i think it was lovely but it just was a bit ambitious it was pretty long and went up to some other routes i think what they could do is take it to the south take it down by all the historic items that are there it would be a flat grade there where the school house and the the historical structure from our original station is located and it would be there it would have a longer route just think of cider days think of all the kids coming to site or days and jumping on the trolley for a right they would see it they're not going to see it or so i think if they take south down by where all the other historical items are it would not disturb the wildlife and the birds we have our own sort of wildlife in daniel's park so that's a whole different story is the actual neighborhood where the trolley would would run now as mr shack was standing in the middle of this street he showed you the cemetery and there's trees along here what you didn't see was all the houses on the other side of the street what you didn't see was all the way down here where this is not running in someone's backyard this is in their front yard this is where the kids ride their bikes this trolley hasn't run on this historical site for fifty years remember it stopped in what fifty three it stopped this neighborhood has developed in the last fifty years as you can imagine so it's now a neighborhood street it's not it's not the old historical route now those people are truly going to be affected we went to most of the houses on fourteenth avenue one being complete disapproval ten being complete agreement there's the names and the addresses and it came up with a two point five now as was mentioned this property is not located in the city the blue area is the city as you can see part of the route is in this city but the rest of it and the rest of the route is in the county it is now controlled by lakewood police it's patrolled by the sheriff it's at the very edge of jefferson county so you can imagine how much patrolling it really gets i think vandalism might be a real a real concern for us now our park if we look at other amenities are part of why dacres on the top we have two ball diamonds and we have tennis courts and we have a little picnic area you can see just how much how much open space we have now if the trolley comes here it's housed here look at how much of our open space it's going to take up word one in war two are seriously lacking in open space i don't know that giving up open space for this when we're seriously hiding it away tucking it away let's say that we're tucking it away in a cute little neighborhood park but i just don't see that that is really going to be the place for that so to summarize if we look at the benefits the heritage center by far has everything that daniels park doesn't except the historic route and that historic route hasn't been that route for fifty years it's now a neighborhood with kids and bikes and traffic and vandalism so thank you for listening we really how we really really hope this goes to the heritage center and it can be something for all of us to enjoy thank you thank you  so let's get it all out one more time please thank you i want to try to keep some some processes in place here in chambers i appreciate your help with that folks are passionate on both sides of this and  we want to respect all opinions in council chambers and i also since i just got these rosters there are some folks lined up to speak on of the sustainability award so i'll come back to that my apologies mr hardy mr willis and mr hyde i did not see that welcome back and if you want to still comment about sustainability we can all right mr keller who man up mr little that evening i'm bill mayer and i'm paul and members of the lakewood city council my name is tom keller and i live in the city of lakewood thrall most fifty years now i'm here this evening with randy little who joins me in serving as cole vice president of the lakewood historical society in charge of programs and public outr as you know car twenty five is one of the most significant historic treasures our dark community has to offer we in the society are most grateful for the city's efforts to preserve and make this available to the community the unique and special gift of card twenty five as a token of our appreciation and to commemorate this new chapter in the life of trolley twenty five we would like to present to you each council member a plaque celebrating this wonderful addition to this city's cultural life the lakewood historical society its mission is to promote citizen interest in the history of our city an important part of our mission is to support the city  protecting important lakewood historical artifacts and making them available in future generations for the enjoyment and education of our people thank you for allowing me to speak this evening and i would like to turn it over to the other vice president of the lakewood historical society mr randy little thank you sir hi my name's randy l am the vice president of communications for the liquid stork will society a couple little tidbits that since we're on the subject it was actually pronounced warbler carried company tom and i did an extensive videotape of the truly car twenty five was built in colorado trivia question it was bill here because of our wood the wood was much drier here back east in iowa where they were building different kind of cars the cars would ride out much faster so they brought that to colorado and they've continued on for several years throughout the years of building trolley cars the second little trivia question is right now we're doing a videotape of west colfax and west coast water came up and today is it still there so if you if you think about where it was there was a stagecoach line it was actually about three blocks north of colfax that was kind of a trivia question the other one last but not least is the gold hill cemetery we're doing a lot of research in there right now and there's about two hundred forty gravestones in that cemetery but there's over seven hundred bodies buried there that do not have any headstones whatsoever most i'm come from of the jewish relief is a solution so we take pride in what we're doing at the liquid historical society we have created a brand new website it's historic lakewood dot com we have a new phone number and  all kinds of information and we have lots of videos on there so please take the time to go there we have eleven board members now we're looking for two more and also you know we look for lots of members so the public's welcome to join thank you very much frank you very much so i have quite a few more names on this from the daniels neighborhood and i just want to be clear that this stuff you requested ten minutes to speak on behalf of the entire neighborhood she does have about four minutes left i'd encourage you if you have questions we certainly understand the position that you're against against this and would not like to see it but i just want to see if those folks want to come up and add anything anymore questions to this please come forward but i want to try to wrap it up and somewhat of an accelerated course please so just come on down give us your name if you signed in and again we heard loud and clear from from your president and where your community stands as they say with currently she's not my president  and your name for the lesser three minutes my name is rob the worst time my address is one two nine four zero on street and i have use of the overhead so you just move it over a little bit you'll get it land in two pieces but the western part from xenon west was for the ash would park subdivision which lies to the west which is unincorporated and you know i am painfully aware of all the activity that goes on to daniel's park and well street fourteenth avenue and white actors road or all unincorporated jefferson county so we have softball tournaments with up to four hundred parking requirements so the issue that i'm concerned about with this is that the left hand of the right hand doesn't know what it's doing a good example is the teacher's association jefferson county teacher's association had a barbecue at the pavilion when two softball games were going on so the district members had to walk from fourteenth avenue and the caterer couldn't get access to the pavilion because the the ball fields were scheduled at the same time so add to that the trolley and these guys did a wonderful job and i was born here on the corner of fourteenth and welch so i think this is a really good idea but the problem is daniel's park is over scheduled and the parking can't be dealt with as it is now and we have a jurisdictional issue the section of fourteenth to welsh i mean union to wel if you look at this these are the property owners on the north and south sides of fourteenth and they all the title is vested in the cemetery and all the people on the south side and the block from union to welsh thirteenth the fourteenth opted out of the city of lakewood so they're not in the city a lake with and they didn't want to be at the time i don't know if they want to be now but that's the second point which expansion of the parking there's not enough now and it overload standards park which was intended originally to be a neighborhood facility for ashwood and daniel scarred three thank you very much appreciate it so if you'd please respect council chambers and we're frame from clapping we'd appreciate it that's why we tried to get it all out earlier if you want to try and do it one more time and get your claps and be fantastic there we go see there's forty houses on fourteen tab tween sims in the park only one or two are set back from the street that means ninety five percent of the people in this area will be directly physically audibly visibly impacted by this project during the years of construction and for decades afterwards my wife and i moved there just a year ago my mom calls it the country this is my impression of the people there in the neighborhood over the past year i've spoken with a handful of people in the neighborhood just to say hello or while helping each other with the hail damage last year while walking our dogs and more recently about this trolley proposal everyone i've talked to seems to know about a half dozen other people one way or another around there i'd say at least a quarter of the people or maybe retirement age or close in a significant portion of the rest of the neighborhood are somehow related to someone nearby across the street or have been friends in some cases for decades didn't use garden is quite neighborhood and no sidewalks lots of birds rabbits and occasional fox and other wildlife kids play outside ride their bikes and skateboards up and down the streets moms push a stroller in one hand while holding a dog leash in the other as they walk down the the street we don't even need a sidewalk because there's plenty of room because it's safe and quiet people like it that way because they can roll their lawn mowers off their grass onto the street and back again get a nice clean edge case occasionally a road many bike a t v or mountain bike will ride down the grassy partition in the middle of the street where the trolley is proposed to go the older gentleman two doors down from me cut that section of the grass couple times a year with his tractor he stops just past one of his relatives house to make it look a little nicer for them he thinks it's front lawn another guy on the other end did the same until they get sick so maybe i'll pick up where he left off this year with my tractor i found all that out this morning by crossing that same section of grass to ask one of my neighbors if she had heard about the trolley proposal the same section that i ran across last year to help my new neighbor cover their car while it was being decimated by the hail and then what about the kids there's at least a half dozen young couples with babies and children that are going to be growing up on that street and many are already running around there can you imagine those kids having to scurry across a train track return to their house forty families in that neighborhood my sense is that nobody wants a train running down fourteenth street i got impression by talking to a handful of people that all seem to be friends with many others so i felt it was representative one even talked about protests seen going to the media it's quiet neighborhood but i don't think these people are going to be quiet about it if it happens one or two has a setback from the street probably just don't care so i had more to say but it's more forks and shovels kind of thing and i do appreciate that and i think people appreciate the open  mindedness of this session i guess the only big question i would have is what is the process after that so we can participate and be constructive in the decision making process thank you very much and we will get to that when we get through the the roster appreciate that it came to the position of the city of lakewood i was the president of the rocky mountain river club who also has an eightieth birthday this year i had also talked with there was a movement in fort collins about thirty years ago to think about restoring their historic trolley car which used to run down a parkway in the in that city and there was a lot of resistance to that and people are much better with it now one of my thoughts was i've spoken with the lady that was involved with that in i thought maybe a suggestion would be to if there turns out to be council interest to possibly go visit this fort collins operation have a look councilman johnson attempted to do that last year but there charley was broken on the day of that so my suggestion would be to not only take counsel but to take some of the community members go have a look let's see what you know what the issues are what can be overcome when the city of lakewood offered to take this car off of our hands from the rocky mountain railroad club we all wanted it to be as historic as possible you know and it's hard to get more historic than to put it on to the actual right of way where the track was it doesn't have any historical relevance from the past at the his heritage center you know there are buildings there but the actual car ran up and down fourteenth i did not ever pay attention much to local politics my involvement with the city began when i signed this car over to the city of lakewood so i don't want to take sides i know that happens a lot i know people said that i didn't take the video of the other side of the street but if you do that sometimes people call the cops so i didn't want to shoot the other side of the street so i would i would hope that we think about this in a historical context that's what i'm after since the cars on the national and state register of historic places and properties i've been told we've been told on the task force two that if you move it away from its historical relevance you potentially lose the chip the designation and that can hurt your chances for grant money and if this land somewhere in the city of lakewood which we hope it will since the city owns it i would think we would want to be able to have grant money so that the city and the taxpayers don't have to pony up pony up all the money ourselves you know so a couple of my thoughts thank you for scholtz you had said just same as the person ahead of you and again i'd encourage people if you have questions so we can get any questions answered would be super helpful welcome ninety four  daniels there as we've seen there are two baseball diamonds and it's historically been used for girls softball games kids young young girls two years ago we had one sides of welsh street which there's no parking allowed we had people parked on our front on we had people parked in the ditches there are several irrigation ditches that run along welsh people with their four wheel drive vehicles were parking with two wheels in the ditch because thing you know it was just a festival party atmosphere in our little neighborhood we called  lakewood police and we had the sheriffs out there several times where and we spent about thirty five to forty minutes standing out in the street trying to really determine whose jurisdiction it really was ultimately because wel was unincorporated jeffco the sheriffs issued several parking tickets that day and then the next day two people who were parking not just illegally in the street but  grass in the park by over twenty cars on the grass there's not adequate parking there so i don't i haven't called the city to to figure out how many tournaments we have scheduled this year this is a neighbor hood park the people that were coming to these tournaments brought tents dogs boom boxes loud speakers and th screaming went on you know you softball games are good noise is there kids and it's a reasonable amount of people this was just inundating our neighborhood so point being  rural with beautiful trees and so what we want to do here what we're talking about here is putting in a another building and more parking so what to me in the neighborhood looks like for fitting i want to ask you to think differently the idea is to preserve this railroad car and the side that educate people about history and  i say put it in a pit and make walt disney proud you don't actually have to run the railroad to experience if you've ever stop the lewis and crikey clark over land trail museum they have covered wagons they're animated and you will be tortured when you go over the bombs all of this with modern technology could be accomplished and from a historical standpoint you could use historical photos i know most them are still but you can animate them and you could there's an awful lot of stories that go with the inner urban's i think you'd find it much cheaper plan play five percent of the cost to do what i'm suggesting ha films big t v screens when you pass a horse you will smell the horse when a kid waves at you you hear his voice even though these are historic and in fight groups to come and say why don't we go to lakewood with our inner urban from new jersey bama whatever plug it in and take the ride that has much more potential and i'm worried about if you actually use that car about the maintenance of vandalism and so on if you have ever taken a late night ri light rail you'll see people put their dirty boots up they just don't treasury so i suggest you look at another alternative i know that may not agree with everybody but i think it would have a lot more potential to educate people about the train the car the history and get kids in law you can have dress up days kids dress up to turn  interests of stakeholders involved i'm excited to see some that plan carried out the reason i'm here tonight is the topic of permanent placement railcar twenty five i'm thankful for our community members who are tirelessly sought donations and volunteered their time and expertise to restore such an incredible part of our history i live one house away from being directly on the proposed route through historic daniels garden and i enthusiastically welcome the opportunity to have this piece of history in my neighborhood some in our community the emily criticize projects such as these but moaning parking congestion crowds and vagrants that they could bring to these people i would like to ask what neighborhood are you living in routine walks along this stretch of proposed land will show that these concerns are already present in the three years i've been walking this section of land i've encountered use syringes old mattresses rolled up sleeping bags tents shattered televisions piles of old kitty litter abandoned vehicles old r v s construction storage and broken beer bottles  throughout i've smelled cannabis wafting from tinted windows and secret lovers showing up in separate vehicles people parked their cars to eat their dinner and then simply open their door to discard the entirety of their fast food packaging on the  ground all this is to say that i think this land as it stands right now sends a message that we don't care it is not currently a place i would want small children to have to walk through on the way to the park or a place i would want my wife to jog through alone after dusk however if we can send a message that the city county and indeed our neighborhood cares about this land then i think we can do a great deal to remedy the situation for this reason i ask that if the trolley does come to our neighborhood please lay down some real improvements along the track i'm not asking for anything fancy just that i'm not asking for anything fancy just maybe plant some zero scaping in key locations and maybe construct a gravel footpath to meander alongside this magnificent symbol of pass a society perhaps even bring some traffic control signage to the required street crossings to medicate short cutting during peak travel times if this is done i would love to come out with lawn chairs and a cooler to greet my fellow neighbors along the trolleys inaugural run as i can think of worse crowds to attract to our neighborhood been train officiant out of his and their families in short i hope the council does not confuse the words of an ardent few as the words of the majority please continue to consider daniel's garden as a viable and historically significant place to house railcar twenty five with that said my question is what sort of improvements would be made to this tract of land if it was to go through thank you forgive me trying to read gene was born twelve twenty ok thank you ma'am mr goldman leaving over the last time we met you said i actually agree with you i did like to be able to agree with hope it works out the mayor was being beat up for the homeless of the dan as well chester's or neighborhood association been on and off the board for twenty plus years and i'll tell you one question that i've never been asked in all those years is what can we do to increase tourism in our neighborhood  i know something about tourism my p r at vail many many years ago for the vail resort for vale associates you have a tremendous asset here i don't understand why you're coming to bury it in our neighborhood which very few people know our neighborhood exists which by the way we love and our neighborhood really doesn't want it and lastly our neighborhood does not have the infrastructure to support it we don't have the parking we don't have the sidewalks we don't have the public restrooms to support it i do have a number of questions about this question number one is has the group that studied the history of the route bother to study the history of daniel's park it is probably unlike any other park in the city because the city did not build it our blood sweat and tears from our neighborhood built that park and it later went to the city literally our people were turning dirt and building the ball fields the park was built starting in one nine hundred fifty around four softball to host softball games we built that park it's a neighborhood park of nine acres and they should understand that we don't want to lose that park and this will probably make us lose a lot of the park i'd like to understand why they think their criteria is met for parking when there are forty seven parking spaces i'd like to understand why they think their criteria is met for other facilities there are two bathrooms with i think a total of three toilets and a urine all and by your website it says no portable toilets are allowed in daniel's park so if you have a big event you're not going to be able to bring in port a potties  to support that it's frightening to hear them say that there's a potential for expansion where is this expansion where are they going to put what did they say meeting and community space acre park it's our park it's a neighborhood park not a regional park i don't understand why they i'd like to see where they thought their criteria were met one by one they said it meant it but it didn't as diane said the only thing that they're there for hanging their hat on is the historic designation and that is not enough the people who were involved in this are going to move on at some point you're going to have that line ten years from now you've got a whole new council and they're going to look up and say what the hell were you thinking because once the shine goes off the toy and it's got some age to it you know you're going first few years you'll have some great events and a lot of people which we can't support because we don't have the infrastructure we don't have even sidewalks and then they're going to say you know and then it's going to fall into disrepair and we're stuck with it with a big chunk of our park now missing thank you very much for your time thank you mr peterson should say familiar faces and some new ones and i haven't been in your position understand some of the decisions that you have to make which are never easy and this is a beginning of a process as you know i have  been or some of you know i have been intimately involved with acquiring this incredible piece of history that helped to build our community and actually help build the entire denver metro area metro area and we were like this close to having it go to california through some insight and some commitment on behalf of previous councils and previous mayors we were able to acquire this it was an uneasy birth this took a lot of effort and a lot of discussion and a lot of correction of a lot of misunderstandings as to who actually would benefit from this car from the hundreds of thousands of hours that were done on volunteer service to preserve it the fact is this is not an amusement ride this is not a a means to have this operational many many times a year this is a piece of history that belongs to this community the community of gold and for that matter it helped to build the western side of the denver area  the reason and i'm on this task force is force as well that we look very seriously at these locations for their historic relevance again this isn't an amusement ride we're not talking about using this as a draw for as many visitors as you get when you have a baseball game i've heard a lot of talk about tournaments and you know five six hundred people coming down here this is designed for educational purposes and for those who want to know more about who we are and why we are and why this community developed the way it developed and in order to do that in order to maintain the mission of all of those a lot of them lakewood residents some of them not that put in those volunteer hours to create this jewel this masterpiece and then to have it operational on the same basic a story property that it used to help build the city of lake with that help that used to build daniel's gardens and all the other little communities that surrounded it is an important part of who we are and why we are and i really appreciate all of the conversation i've heard here tonight because this is about raising questions this is about asking and understanding what this car means to the community what it means to the residents here i mean yeah i live right across from belmont park i can remember back when they ran cattle on that particular piece of ground i remember when a developer purchased the mansion and tore it down and put up buildings that quite frankly are not there ie attractive and we lost a huge part of our history as a result of that i remember working with the people who wanted to maintain the open space in bellmore park and fought against the ampitheater and against the history museum back there because they wanted to maintain it that way all of these issues start with community involvement they start with folks just like you have heard tonight that come out with concerns for their community they come out with questions about what you're trying to do they come out with maybe in some instances a misunderstanding of what the impact will be i heard one thing tonight that i think would be really a good thing to do if you as our elected officials decide to empower staff to do further investigations and to start the process of outreach to the community to those who are affected in a dramatic way or maybe not so dramatic way as a result of locating this in daniel's gardens it is a or it is a neighborhood park this is not a it can be but it's not necessarily a regional draw this is not something that we want to encourage five six hundred people to ride on a day back and forth and operate along those lines it is a piece of history that needs to be interpreted and can be interpreted as an educational venue the other thing i would like to have done if you so desire to ask staff to continue this public dialogue and to raise additional questions i'd like to think about extending that line all the way to the oak street station that x years a whole bunch of different questions about inner connectivity to one hundred years of transit service in the in the metropolitan area it also helps address some of the issues that could be placed on a local park as a result of this particular venue occurring here so i want to thank you for the opportunity to consider this and want to thank you for the foresight and the insight to ask your staff our staff as citizens of lakewood to investigate this i mean it's always easy to take a look at a venue like bill maher and say bingo that's it maybe not so fast maybe we need to stop and desist think a minute about what this car means what it hopefully will do for our community and how we use this era replaceable asset and i think maybe when we look at it from that viewpoint from a bigger picture let's open the dialogue let's involve our citizens let's answer the questions and then if we come to a conclusion that this is not the place can fusion and my questions is if it's now in the fed center how is it on the national registry because that's not the original line so we've kind of already moved that off and i can appreciate how much these gentlemen have you know spent their time and i raised a super super train buff we have been members of the railroad museum since he was one so i get it but i also again tamir everyone else the infrastructure and i just don't understand how it would all fit like a logistically don't get where the house would go when there's ditches and if there's a big hill in how would the parking work and if it's not going to be used that much then in my brain i went well is this fiscally thank you mr mayor members of council and i did hear you blowing top so i'll keep it very brief but i have a couple questions and they pertain to the study that you previously read on using the heritage center as a location for this one of them and these are reciting the study itself have the problem of the car negotiating the grade that exits the care heritage center and goes along the border of the park and i'm going to one of the proposed routes has it has that ever been overcome now these are radical questions that can't be answered this evening i think they require further studies but that first one is i think that's pretty fundamental in terms of what worked what would be the costs of overcoming that great if it could be overcome and the second is the environmentalists study that the study that the your original study already rich cites has never been done of the impact on the wildlife and the shrubbery and other natural features of the park this was not covered in the study either and i think those are two questions that must be answered i might point out to their heritage center was not really on your materials for this evening is one of the sites to be considered so i understand that but it was raised during the discussion this evening fine i would just make the bet a general observation that if we're actually back to considering the hared each center that other than size and that you know i recognize that can be significant but that's not why we have bellmawr park there but all the questions that misses are all the concerns rather misses duffy and other members of daniel's gardens raised about their own daniel spired which are quite legitimate can also be raised in bellmore park so thank you thank you mean if you just give us your name and address a bigger than to goldman ten forty five's in a street i just have a question about the national historic register and it seems that  is that there is a potential for it to be removed just a quick google search that i did shows that once it's on the register and less you have federal funds attached to it then it seems that you can't lose that status so i'm just i think it should be explored more about what this potential for losing its status is really right thank you  or absolutely good evening if you just give us your name and address please name is john l rod and i live at ten forty well street i have heard a couple statements about historical registry and lakewood maintaining the historical registry but you're planning on parking the train in unincorporated jefferson county that doesn't tie into me the exposure at heritage center would be vastly more than it would be in daniels park look at the traffic that just goes to even what's worth people are just going to see it from the street the question i have is who's going to take the liability of an accident and jefferson county if it's controlled by l quick please do some quick clarifications on the the gold hill cemetery the gold hill cemetery is actually in jefferson county it's on the national historical register it's on the state historical record and it's registered by the city and county of denver so it can be done that way and think of all what we've lost your molly brown summerhouse city of denver the graveyard up there we're asking the other day would graveyard is there in lakewood there is no graveyards and like that you think about it so just so you know that is registered nationally and state register by the city of denver thank you all right thank you everybody appreciate it and as you can see a lot of passion if bellmawr was the first choice tonight the same chambers would be packed with the oaks from bellmawr area saying many of the same things the same concerns and that's what i think mr peterson said very well we're all trying to come together and figure out what do we do with something that we all care about and it's something that's not going to happen overnight and i'll venture to guess it won't happen the next five or six or seven years but it will be able to begin to start to see some life as we go forward so we're going to have a lot of questions i kind of put together the list that i heard from the community which had to do mainly with parking with the status of the park being a neighborhood park and what that would do as well as some things related to the registry and if i might  link we start with the questions related to the registry and i think one was if it's in jefferson county does that change does it really make a big difference if it's off of it so those types of yeah think you saw there was a question about how it how is the car able to be on the national register currently and it's on the national register currently be because the spur that went to the federal center is part of the historic route for car twenty five and they considered that along with the criteria of it being a locomotive and they considered it strongly enough that it was able to be placed on the the national register so in terms of it falling off the national register we've been advised that because it's currently on the national well so when an artifact is moved it reconsidered at that point and so which is why we would need to have a conversation with history colorado for both the state register and the national register and we've been advised that because the car is listed on the national register in part because of its proximity to the historic route that if it moves away from the historic route that that particular criteria would no longer be applicable so it's part of an ongoing conversation i mean we would definitely need to continue those conversations with the with history colorado in terms of the state register the location is not as critical there are rolling stock that are on the state register and they're not located in the area where they originally ran so the state register isn't as much of a concern for us as the national and i think maybe i'll jump an answer the parking because this is the early stages just to get direction to see what that would look like with the community so i think it's probably early to tell but it be certainly something that would be a big focus of any conversation whether you're at del mar which is parking has parking problems of and of itself but you know there is more there versus that location set accurate yes i i think that would be part of the conversation how much parking is there currently is that adequate what other would we need to add additional parking if so where would that go right and remind me the fort collins trolley is a in a neighborhood or is it in a park it's him both it's the house is located in proximity to a park and to a cemetery ironically and and then it runs down the center of a street on a medium right down through a neighborhood ok all right so we will continue with questions this harrison thank you i'm still not clear if i understand we've got two different levels of historic does signal what would happen in terms of financially because i i feel like that's the under lying question here if we were to lose either one of the historic does ignitions does money it could for the car itself the car needs to be on a register in order to receive restoration funds and so if the car were not to be on any register at all then it wouldn't be eligible for restoration funds if there was additional work that needed to be done or repairs to the historic fabric of it the national register and the state register are both  what is the word i'm looking for yeah there's prestige to them it also opens up access to things like tax credits which of course the city  city wouldn't be able to benefit from but it provides some additional access to resources that are otherwise not available i have a couple more questions may i keep going  k in terms of the the idea this is probably a task force question we've got this great amenity and wherever we move it to talk about how often was it going to be running what did you envision when you were looking at this was it going to be daily running was it going to be once a month what kind of running schedule were you looking at this who wants to answer i'll take a shot at that thank you the assumption that i had was you might run it on a weekend day multiple weekend through the year and perhaps on holidays but  that car i don't see it running on a daily basis by any means or you know really even multiple days in a week it's just not i just wouldn't think it be necessary to interpret the  interpret but to do it interpretively ok and then my next question between the rides it's got to sit in a protected building because it is now and we want to make sure so would that be that building need to be in such a way to where the public come in and look at it while it's still sitting there i'm assuming so it's got to have kind of a museum bigger than a tough shed nicer than that kind of idea well i think it needs to be protected and ideally you'd want to have it visible when it's not out and operating ok and then the other question that i had was on the track right now you said it has about a you said point one two i think it's way point one nine to act length which is about let me see if my during math will get me here a little less than a quarter of a mile correct in my close ok durango was not good at math let me twenty five would be a quarter thank you that's what i thought i'd say so if we were to take using ed peterson suggestion about going where parking is at street and going clear cross over to daniels and back up theoretically that's about what a half a mile in terms of length i'm thinking here well i think it's if we're talking away from daniel to well it's a half mile roughly out to sam's and i would guess it's more than a half mile on to oak but oak street has parking and oak street also potentially i know when we originally talked about this there was actually going to be a building there my druthers sense we're getting our wish list here about what that is an interesting concept because it addresses a couple of things it wouldn't necessarily create the parking issues in the daniels park and yet it still keeps it potentially running up and down i'm not sure that i like all of that so far i'm just saying it's one thing that i would like to explore i think i'm done thank you  thank you i've got actually lots to say so a lot of it's comments too so i'll try and be short and michelle wie i approached the city about two years ago because a constituent came to me to tellus tell me that we own this and to be honest with you i had no idea that the city even owned the trolley at that point this city rightfully so approached martin martin for a feasibility study and that feasibility study looked in the linemen that only went north on the property there bill maher i'm not real sure why they didn't actually look at taking the trolley behind the historic buildings that are there the schoolhouse and cafe and all those things and then having it into the ampitheater that was kind of one suggestion that was out there currently we spend help me if i'm wrong about thirty five hundred dollars in rent to the denver federal center yearly i think it is close to thirty five hundred maybe a little bit more ok i think in the course of these two years that the task force got formed and i really appreciate the  work that taskforce is done and the work that ed peterson did in order to try and make this a reality for our city to even own this but in the last two years it has felt to me like this is become a little bit politicized which is unfortunate  it's been at the denver federal center for eight years and this is actually in the last two years the first time there's been some real interest in trying to move the trolley  as you said that there was one point looking at the oak street station it was my understanding that there was drainage issues out there and it was just mentioned that there would be parking out there i believe that's r t d isn't it we don't own land that we could actually use for parking would that be r t d land that's a question it would be our t v so we would be sharing the parking lot with r t d there ok that needs to come out  it's important that we do get public input on all sides of the issue on this and having said that it seems like it is a little bit backwards to me that we are looking at a particular alignment and then going to go to the city and reach out to them perhaps the folks in that neighborhood should have been asked prior to having a recommendation going there and just to me it's just a com n you know there are many cities many communities that would give their eye teeth to have this this asset and two years ago i went up to fort collins with george meyer who is the one that brought this to my attention we did ride the trolley and yes it does go down the the center of a residential neighborhood it is a very very different residential neighborhood than daniel's gardens on both sides it is lined with victorian homes and and there was pushback initially and  but there again that trolley only goes out sporadically which is what my thoughts were that this one would only go out would be sporadically i have stayed in touch with the gentleman in fort collins that actually runs  and i can think of what his last name is he's been awesome he's been willing to share with us the manual that he designed in order to teach the the trolley drivers how to drive it and as he told me you can get people to stop it but you want to make sure that they stop it on the track but be on the track so they have yearly tests that those folks those engineers take about two months ago he contacted me and wanted to know where the status was on this and i told him unfortunately it's been stalled to a point we had an opportunity to actually get a lot of the cable the overhead cable and go in with fort collins and get it much cheaper and his last message to me in all honesty was a little bit edgy they had to go ahead and purchase the cable and they spent a great deal much more money had we been able to to get this process going sooner they're willing to work with us and to share all the information they have regarding liability issues that they've already figured out it's been said there was a feasibility study a couple of years ago two three years ago keep me honest kathy when we had a study regarding the heritage center and at that point it was said that the heritage center is under utilized those samina t would actually attract people to come and i can tell you that the trolley in fort collins is actually a destination people come nationally to write it and so it would be a tourist type type ride that you're actually talking about they've reached out to a company that has tokens original type tokens that she used to put in the trolleys and i'm embarrassed to tell you and i was a little girl i rode the trolley and colfax they have a situation up there where they have the box when you go on to the trolley you can put the token in but if you want to buy it  can as a souvenir and because it's a destination people do buy those so having it at the heritage center you would naturally assume that there would be kind of a museum type  ability to look at it railroads i understand that at the union station that the miniature railroad that was down in the basement there was actually in  disrespected when union station built out but it's still out there be an awesome place to even try and look at that you know there's been a lot of talk about the historic site of it well there one of the original buildings is actually at the heritage center and the school house was not indigenous to that neither was the cafe so there's a little bit of a disconnect for me two years ago when this was brought to my attention i actually started reaching out in my network asking people regarding funding for this i think with that we have the ability to reach out and to actually get some some big players if you will to help fund this people that are really interested in railroads and in preservation of this i stopped asking after this whole thing got stalled we've talked a lot about the grade at the heritage center i don't know that i don't know that it's ever really been thought out if that's that's actually a problem  once again it was said that since it's been at the denver federal center that you know the historic relevance out there i'd like to say something about daniel's gardens it is in ward one and i have the pleasure to walk to those homes when i am running for office and i have to tell you that neighborhood is filled with some of the most beautiful human beings i've ever met it is a very eclectic neighborhood they do not have sidewalks thank you very much and they don't want him he was a very private neighborhood they like it that way and they want to keep it that way and to be frank with you i have always felt extremely safe walking in that neighborhood just because the people do look out for each other in a quiet kind of a way it is more agricultural out there there are folks long before we had the pigs and chickens that had all of that already and they like it that way they want to be left alone mr johnson you want to get the great question answered yes they would like that so the question regarding the grading the grade ratios yes the car cannot run on a grade that's more than three percent preferably two percent that was part of the feasibility study and the information that we received from the gentleman who led the restoration of car twenty five and how does that relate to the the belmar placement are there grades of two or three there well the the location that was identified as a feasible location could accommodate that grade and that would be with the building up behind just north of the visitor center and south of iron gate the car actually can't run on the gold for a variety of reasons including utilities we did look at that as part of the feasibility study utilities it also runs through the bond fees historic district the may bomb fees historic district and a real car wouldn't be compatible with that historic district then why do we have the house that housed it because that was made on fees structure it's original to the site the trolley house i thought was in daniels will chester gardens and was moved out there oh yes we have we have a stop yes we have the white acre stop it's not in the historic district it's on the colfax hub temporarily until we determine a permanent location for it it would likely go with car twenty five wherever car twenty five would go so if it goes up behind the visitor center the trolley stop would go up there with that if it would go to daniels park street wherever it would go we would tie those two artifacts together thank you  i think thirty seven is what we heard and they were forty seven and forty seven i think five of those who are handicapped spots only five i didn't actually assess that but we can certainly hundred and something again i can get that information for you is it in the neighborhood of three four hundred no not in the parking lot of self but we also utilize surrounding and partnership and the garage here at city hall is close enough to the park to be used for events i can serve as an overflow parking area for the large events i've been told that are t d which sound parking correct i don't think we have or got to those conversations with r t d i don't i don't think we got that far along so so i'm not sure about that we don't know that they would allow it we don't know that they easy would that be to get permission to do that's the busy i think crossings are the jurisdiction of the public utilities commission and those who cost two streets in daniel's gardens if we went if we went  it would and we put crossing guards there are crossing bars are likely not because of the lighter traffic though we would run it about twenty feet from people's front door across two streets without any crossing mechanism to safeguard the public interest is that right i don't know about the dimensions the twenty feet but that is correct when we looked at the the do you want to address that pete well then you get into federal railroad administration rules and when you're operating below fifteen miles an hour such things are not required and  stop in either flag the street or observe and proceed so the charlie would stop at the street or the cars would stop for the charlie at the street don't how many are close would it be to nearby residences if it at the heritage center well you know what i can bring up i actually have the map if that would be helpful  just to get a sense because i i think it would just be an estimate at this point so here's the lakewood heritage center just kind of orienting that the space that we're talking about this is w and alameda is up here and we are looking at let me just orient myself here's the parking area the lakewood heritage center we would be looking at this location up here for the facility so i'm fast forwarding us that russ russ is going to jump in so again wadsworth this is just north of the visitor center here's that parking area again so the route i believe it's this one here would come down and around this is the iron gate complex and the proposed route with then go down here behind the library and through this spur right here would be between the library and the civic center and the parking garage right there and then it would curve around here back here is the courts and police department i t and it would move right along here into this area so their houses up here their houses in this area right here so those would look to be half a mile or more away two blocks two city blocks being about a quarter mile or probably less than that old tracks probably closer probably i'll bet you it's not fifty feet  or or the other activities that go on there i don't you know yeah i could certainly get you that information i don't know of any other than i think it could be in keeping with questions wouldn't it be likely to be an attraction to folks from say denver that want to come out to an event in lakewood and say involve are there we can ride the trolley there are no none of those kind i would think that wherever the car is located there would be people who would be interested in coming out to see at the but if we if we keep the use of the trolley resent group of people that would want that could take advantage of the jollies attraction you know one of the things that the taskforce really liked about the lakewood heritage center was the potential for the utilitarian use of the car that it could for those types of events that it could transport people from the additional parking areas back down to the heritage center so that was a real plus ok the there are some statements proper we have the deed but it is not within the city or right imagine that our police officers don't patrol it to a great extent the east side of wall street is lakewood the west  police officers so how would how would that affect the security counsel that we were we followed the direction that we were given to look at historic route right so this was the task forces job and they came to you with this being a recommendation however remember that they also thought that the heritage center was a viable option so as council as peterson indicated the next steps would be the extensive work that would need to go into looking into both of these sites so i would the detail questions will be answered through the planning process so i mean in the next step really would be are you comfortable with us doing some more research doing of his abilities study looking into daniel's park as a potential or are you thinking that that's totally off the table just to kind of ok i understand that and that was going to be one of the questions i asked mayor made a remark that of two ball fields and past it goes around the perimeter where in the heck would you put the sign there's not much room left in the park tract and so it would be something that we would have to study carefully we did look at that site in assess just by i where a facility could go where track could go where additional parking could go and we discussed you know that that as  it would be possible so that it would take much more study for us to make all those determinations and especially work with the community when you take all of that space way you have maybe three and a half to four acres to work with right now that is all grass that it's inside the loop of the trial of the sod well yes if you go ahead right the pork is heavily used now and if you take more of that space away that's going to leave less space the neighborhood can use in their own neighborhood park so  that would seem to be a possible andy capp and putting it out there well we could potentially we could potentially enhance the space at the park also there's with getting citizen input there's a possibility of providing them with some space that they don't have right now such as community meeting space i know that's something that has come up as a kind of a concern in that neighborhood so this is an opportunity for us to get a lot of input from the neighbors if you were to recommend that we proceed with plan you know you do center down the street from there they do but it's a head start facility so it's limited  vincent i think most of my questions have been answered but what i'd like to put forth is that we consider looking at both these options i don't feel like i have enough information yet to make a decision and i would hate to cut off one and not look at both of them because i don't know what i don't know yet so i'd like to put forward that we at least put forward haven't you look further at more options are both options excuse me possibly to with  format where we could ask additional questions or we could get more questions from the neighborhoods too so that's what i'd like to put forth i don't know if that's what will consider that will keep going through with questions and then we can come back mayor just one question what are the ramifications if we do nothing nothing what are the ramifications the car stays in storage at the federal center until at the point where they need that property for other uses and we don't know how imminent that is so we would need to see another storage location for it the federal center given any indication that they are they want us out of there are they getting ready to evict us now no they're not getting ready to evict us we know that they have a plan to redevelop a long term plan but they don't have a timeframe for that to happen so when we we would be notified and then we would need to kind of scramble find a solution for the car and the location the other thing i'll just mention is the option that we've been currently working under is that there could be a potential for a public private partnership somewhere along the w line if when redevelopment occurs if it occurs our twenty five could be utilized as an asset for that area where it could run as part of that development it's it's certainly not a guarantee but that was how we left  things when the oak street station wasn't coming to fruition ok now so question this car has a different is a different gauge as i understand it from the light rail so it would not be able be very problematic to try and run it on that line that's what we concluded ok well here's here's the way i'm thinking about this you know daniel's park neighbors they don't want it i sat here last year when we had another hearing like this no other study session and we were looking at the heritage center and the people came in and they didn't want there either the neighbors don't want it the people that use the park don't want it so we're looking at two possible options here and having to force it onto our citizens at one place or the other i for one am not willing to do that ok i'm not willing to do that we've got too many other difficult issues in this city that we're dealing with we've got a whole gallery of people that are here on another very important matter and i just for one think that we're wasting a lot of time and a lot of resources looking at different options different possibilities i have no doubt that the the logistics can be worked out there you know it's a matter of you know creativity and engineering and thoughtfulness i ne of these issues that there are that are there can most of them can be worked out but the bottom line is we're going to have to make a decision at some point and force it on either one group or another i'm not willing to do that and so for my money for my feeling i think we ought to pull the plug i think it's time leave it in leave it in leave it where it sat leave it in my balls who knows twenty five years from now we might have a whole different attitude in this and they and we might have people fighting to get i their park right now they're not in the mean time if the you know federal center decides they want to a victim's then i suppose we have no other choice but to dispose of this so this relic and that would be a shame i grant you because i know how much work these are folks have put in this thing and they've done such a great job it's a beautiful piece it's not just a piece of machinery it's a piece of art and it's a shame but sometimes we don't have to do a darn thing and i think right now that's kind of where we're at so that's my that's my feeling mr robel castle beat oh well said sir you took the words right out of my mouth quick question you talked about storage and the cost was roughly about thirty five hundred a year what would it take to build our own storage facility to house that unit that piece of artwork on our property for a long term for example right now councilor b just said you know obviously there's two places that we're looking at place and it neither one wants it maybe in about ten years they may change their mind but meanwhile maybe we should have a facility to be able to store it somewhere til things either change or we move on but it's just an idea we did we did consider that we wanted to hear council's direction if the direction is do nothing then we'll have to come up with a a plan for where we will put it when we get kicked out of the federal centers so we'll have to that will be our next step and of course we would need funding for that as well  yeah that being said i would lean more toward that then trying to force it on people and again you know it's like if the city's like a family we just don't want to force something down our throat that they don't want so my thought for what it's worth let's just do nothing and create a storage facility for it and hold on the second with cancer vents and said i think be great to get some more information some more study here from the residents i know we heard from residents today i think it's fantastic i understand your concerns but i'm certainly willing to hear more and learn more about both projects i wasn't here when they were talking about the heritage center site like to learn more about that and appreciate your work on this and as a third proposal i'd like to suggest we put in more two or no council events and likes living  i'm so here's kind of what i'm i'm struggling with is we have this conversation is that i think one of our biggest community priorities is open space we talk about that a lot and you know it i think it is one of our biggest community priorities and in a lot in both of these two options we're talking about potentially losing or impacting open space so at the heritage center you know that was a really for me personally that was a nonstarter i seeing  losing that and vironment at the heritage sun turn and bellmawr park it's just it's a community amenity that many of us enjoy this would dramatically change and i know you know we discussed that already so i don't mean to rehash all of that but then again when we're looking at the daniels park someone mentioned you know ward one and ward two they have the least amount of parks space so for me talking about giving up some of that park space albeit for a very worthy and you know people talked about it as a masterpiece and and as a jewel and i certainly see it that way but it's still giving up something that our community values for another valuable thing it's difficult so this is going to just shock everybody but i kind of feel like i agree with counselor  yeah but i think that you know the option that was running through my mind is well what if you know i know that there's great value to having it run  but what if it what if it's at the oak street station and it's accessible but it doesn't run and i know that that's not something that a lot of the a lot of people are going to want to hear what if it just  is if it's just successful to the community to view but not to actually ride and i think that any good idea has to have at least some people hate it so that made me feel like maybe it's worth bringing up  so so that's kind of what i'm leaning towards i really don't want to see us lose our our parkland and so i would be open to exploring some an option like looking at oak street and having it not run that wasn't even one of the options we were given or the counselor be the option of doing nothing before i go to mr johnson her light is on let me just summarize what i'm hearing and so i'm hearing do nothing i'm hearing the ones presented tonight i also heard from miss vincent that we look at two of those choices tonight and so i want to get us somewhat to some sort of consensus no matter what that is and i would just make one comment along the lines you know we we did try for a long time to work on oak street and i think there was a lot of merit to that i know there's a lot of trouble with that but that was the original spot and at that time r t d was willing to work with us and good old inter governmental partnerships are important these days so for whatever that's worth as jo thank you well we've come full circle tonight i would just like to bring up begin that our sweet little trolley needs to be in a place where it is safe and where vandalism will not be an issue at daniels gardens when i was a kid i would have been out there trying to get onto it and plan on it too but the type of vandalism that we have now is a little different and  for me daniels gardens is a nonstarter ed brought up the idea of education and you're absolutely correct with the trolley out of the denver federal center i don't see the schools going out there and taking the kids to look at it and to have any kind of instruction regarding transportation in this area perhaps another option could be that we just storage at the  bellmawr center build a place for it and then have no other idea comes up of were could actually run then move it and just get it on our own land and off at the denver federal center and at least if it was stored  heritage center school kids could come in at least take tours through it is just an idea another option option five  all make this brief basically my position is i want to go to a place where it's wanted and i think that maybe at this point in time it hasn't found that place yet i'm actually in the camp of at this point do nothing i want to find a place where it's wanted in and i don't want to spend money on building something and then having that building be something that's not long term utilized so i would be in the camp of at this point sadly do nothing mr ab i i don't want to see it become a relic that's never use but at this point i don't think we're anywhere close to a solution and we have a its future is less critical to our community than a number of other things we have to do so at this point maybe we need to just hang it up for a while and come back and look at it add another time the no community resources just spent an awful lot of time and awful lot of sweat on this project i didn't mean to put you folks on the spot with those questions but there are just too many of them and i think the martin study was a good one and that it held a lot of information that it didn't tell the whole story and now we're thinking are there are suggestions of being made to put more money into a larger study of daniel's park or another study of oaks station so i think until we decide what we really want to do i'll just let her go for a little while and keep paying the feds thirty five hundred dollars a year until we can come up with some a better idea of what to do with it ok so i'm getting close to i think area consensus and that is to do nothing and what is the what the consensus is little not perhaps trying to gauge so give me just a shake and others something like this all right i'm going to say that that's fair fair to say that's consensus to put this on hold for the time being i want to just echo something though and it's really important so this was a council directive and staff you did a great job going out and trying to get the information find locations and furthermore we have an incredible group of volunteers who are rather disappointed tonight and i can tell who cared greatly for this car and want to make sure that people can utilize it so my apologies i think there is a way i just don't know at this point what that way is and there is consensus to take a breather so let's use this as an opportunity come back together i'd encourage daniels park to be part of this conversation i'd encourage bellmawr to be a part of this conversation and let's find a place for this is not a deal and i are getting some some head shakes from our folks and daniel so can we get some kind of time frame where we will come back and look at it don't want it to draft indefinitely so i don't want to considering we're just getting our dashboard going in our meetings are stacked pretty much through september  i don't want to simply throw something out tonight but potentially you know a revisit in our whole list of things that we have on our dashboard to put that in the bucket so it's not going away it's there th it in the two thousand and nineteen bucket but that would be up to the council as a whole to make that they had to say oh i'd like to before we put it put it off to have at project that you can prioritize turn your next council retreat and over the year we'll have probably a couple of these and you can help us prioritize those and that will happen early two thousand and nineteen so that might work just fine the other thing i would like to offer is i'll reach out to the federal center folks and find out what the pressure is if any on the storage capacity right now and if there's pressure to move out what does that look like in terms of timing and that may also direct this decision there was a time there was a time when there was more money available to the federal center and they had a grand plan to move a lot of the least properties and least agencies on to the site and i think that was going to have an impact on where the trolley is stored right now and because of a lack of funding they haven't acted on that so i'm wondering in all check this there may not be the significant pressure as there once was on the federal center storage site so often up with that and let you know when i find out citizens survey so that we can kind of get some broad community and put on how important this is relative to right that those questions are under way we may be able to do it on the survey or there may be some other opportunities for us in some of our outreach efforts on that we have deployed recently out of our community resources department so i think that would be in a good way for you to get some additional so as hoping maybe there's a champions group that we could connect these neighborhoods into that could help move this process along maybe our task force might come back for that they ever talk to us again or yeah all right well thank you again thank you to our task force and you know out of some of these decisions come great things so let's just hope that we can keep looking in a way and working in a way so i'm going to do something real quick and we're going to see if anybody's still here that wanted to have a comment or input on the sustainability awards and then after that i'd like to take a quick five minute break or ten minute break and then we'll come back so i had gary hardy mike willis ted high that wanted to give input on the sustainability all right so they are all gone so let's go and break till ten pm and we will come back thank you was maybe some confusion about public comment as relates to the interest in the two hundred sixty apartments there's no public comment for that this evening that would be next week under the general public comment so if you're here just hanging out with that in mind that my apologies but that will be actually next week you'll have that opportunity so with that this is a continued continued continued discussion on the part dedication ordinance and council last in the last week with our previous regular council meeting directed to go to conversation on option four which is in the packet tonight and there is i'm always parkland ok first i want to go briefly over what option four is a little oh explanation of what option for we've got over all the previous options three was just a modification the exist nor an option for as actually a total rewrite or changing of the ordinance some of the key features are it will completely completely change chapter fourteen sixteen in our city code it would require park dedication for parks and open space from all developments greater than fourteen point nine nine acres and specifically states that it would be ten percent of the land area in that development the taking of the land it would be ten percent of all development including from commercial and residential whereas the lewis is written so it would be just residential development on fourteen point nine nine acres or less and the fee would be based on a gross square footage of residential units fee would be set annually and there is also a waiver as it's currently written a waiver for affordable housing provision it does technically change our parklands standard it eliminates all those from the code changes what we would be collecting and what how much land we'd be requiring and dedication it also would require a yearly resolution or by yearly resolution after the passes your dence to set the fee that would be charged in place per square foot of those units this is also very similar to what is being proposed for the school and dedication fee that will be coming before you in the future and it's as again it's always evaluated annually and brought back to council one of the ones things that i want to bring up  implications in showing what a little bit a couple of examples what i've done is pulled a couple of examples five or that we went over and looked at what the implications of each option would be on those particular the the development would not have happened or we would have to be in negotiation on what parkland we get reason why we did not select to go with land dedication in this particular case it's less than a half mile from both sunset and bellow park and so it's easily accessible to existing park facilities that are that we've recently expanded some other figures the gross square footage of the residential areas in the fair market value is determined by looking at the assessor's records for th parcels as you can see the fee that was actually paid by this development was two hundred three thousand seven hundred dollars if we went to the option one which is the fair market value of mt it been five hundred eighty thousand or one thousand nine hundred dollars a unit option two and three who are set fee based on a formula was originally set up to be what we've recently paid for parkland approximately twenty one hundred dollars a unit and so that's  flat fee for both options two and three option for his based on the gross square footage of habitable space within the residential units in this particular case it would have been a six hundred seven thousand dollars based on two dollars a square foot and that was original intention of what we looked at there and the cost per unit as you can see there i do have a chart to summarize aziz at the end here so i just want to go over quickly of what information we put together on each of these sites the second example is a small development single one large lot of subdivided into three separate lots at golf club acres filing number eight eight seventy nine benton street is right near  side is very close to my home and dry gulch trail porton fact look here your gross square footage of the two housing units that were built on that were nearly thirty five hundred square feet per building so their single family house detached houses fairly large buildings and then the fair market value again was determined off the assessor's record they paid a fee of fourteen hundred dollars for these two units option one the fee would have been forty six hundred dollars or twenty three hundred dollars per unit option two and three again the twenty one hundred dollars for the generate forty two hundred dollars option for the square footage one based on two dollars a square foot would have as you can see fairly large number that would been dedicated or would been feeding live dedication last chart i have here is just we looked at several other ones so i tried to quickly summarize those to per unit cost per those particular developments those for option four if you look at that that's basically it is worth a dollar per square foot of have full unit and you can see there's a variety of different unit types there are fifty eight hundred alameda the metro west project unit with that i will let you continue discussion on option for whatever your direction you'd like to take on this thank you so i'm going to open up the public input portion so that's a three minute time limit and again this is specific to this presentation and the parking fee discussion so francis see those to speak about this precisely about this but i do have some information that i would like to share with the city council knowing full well that you are going about to go into executive session after this meeting so those this  ok so i would ask that you respect the korma chambers i'm not going to silence anybody but it's out of order but i will not stop you understand in it'll take me because i'm past my bedtime it will take me to less than two minutes great and i have some information which i will give to michelle for her to distribute thank you for the opportunity to address all of you this evening for the consideration of the comments i'm about to make and the relevant information that i provided each of you i have for comments on behalf of the homeowners in the green mountain estates neighborhood i asked of the city council advised the city's attorney tim timothy cox to settle the lawsuit brought by the homeowners the city should settle by agreeing to the relief sought by the homeowners this will result in a court order vacating the zoning approval that was the irani asli given by mr travis parker item to the city should take this action because the city will likely lose the lawsuit because mr parker the decision was against the law this was explained in detail in previous letter sent by sent to mr cox by the attorney for the homeowners copies of these letters are provided for your convenience in summary the colorado supreme court has already ruled that a permitted use on a use chart is not permitted as a matter of right mr cox's legal argument which was presented by mr messenger at the last council meeting has already been rejected by the colorado supreme court copies of this case are also provided for your convenience item three if the planning slash zoning approval is revoked or vacated by the court or by the city the developer cannot sue the city this is because the developer was not the owner of the property at the time the application was submitted the only way the city's position on the planning slash zoning matter can be challenges under c r c p rule when all six action that type of action cannot be brought by a party that was not entitle to the property at the time the application was filed this is the holding of a court of appeals that is also being provided for your convenience i developer wants to be able to sue the city for this planning slash zoning decision it would need to refile its application at the time that it is in title to the property the city council should not be wasting city funds on litigation against its own citizens when the city is taking a losing position i thank you very much for your time and good evening mr buckley who got to speak on the leaving good evening i'm steven buckley twelve o five south ingle street which is in ward three i will speak on the fee in lieu thank you for continuing to continue to continue to discuss this issue i know it's been a long discussion but i appreciate that the options seem to have gotten better i want to endorse option four i actually sent an email to all levels of you if you recall it about three weeks ago endorsing option three i think option four hits it out of the park even more now that i've actually read it that it wasn't available that time the main issue as i see it is that as likely continues to grow and develop which we know it will and we need it to and we want to we need to make sure that we continue to provide the livability and good park park space for our residents i've heard many people in this community over the past however many months has been discussed several different sources and times you know say that the point of this ordinance is to increase the fee to provide a better incentive for developers to give us that live ability and i just don't see it that way according to the current ordinance of course is written so that the city staff the developer gets to decide whether land will be done and dedicated or cash will be dedicated and to me that makes all the difference in the world there's no incentivising of anything going on here it's just a simple matter of the city decides what serves the citizens best and so an argument i've heard from many places people in this community that goes along with that incentives ation argument is that it has to be the value of land because that's the only fair thing that provides enough of incentive for a healthy enough feet to make the developers give us good parkland i think that actually the presentation we just saw showed in the staff calculations that  could be set per square foot or otherwise an option three based on previous land purchases gets us to a point where it's sufficient to cover the costs of actually acquiring the park land which is what the issue is we want parkland and if for some reason we can't get parkland as parkland can't fit on a particular parcel we need to charge a sufficient fee and no more to actually buy a new park or of great a nearby park to fit those new residents that's that's the goal here the fees should fit the needs of the city and not more and  ties into a very important second issue which the fact that housing in this town just cost too darn much this is just an anecdote with lots of data with it to today i was having a discussion my coworker who needs to look for a new apartment because he has a wife and his five year old daughter living in a one bedroom apartment in lakewood their rent is going up from seven hundred mo to one nine hundred month they just can't do that that's too much so we have an issue after we address this park and issue because we need t fee to cover the expenses of buying parks we need to look at the issue of the lack of affordability in the city and we need to pick an option when we do the fee that takes into consideration that we will be considering that affordability issue shortly exacerbate that issue the fair market value option could potentially for developments on very pricey land give us a fee that's way out of proportion to what the actual cost to the city would be to buy park land if we set the fee based on i like the square footage method because it's tied directly to the number of residents we're getting square footage is proportional to residence which is proportional to park needs we're not are you charging we're not exacerbating the problem of housing prices being unattainable so that's my view i like option four because the square footage is most proportional to the needs the city actually has and the way to fix the housing affordability problem of course just to build a lot more anymore he's got the legal ease there which is beyond my depth perception right now our understanding and as a concerned citizen of greenmount in the states for come on please you knew you wanted to speak can you turn the light on so this is the original proposal that started the whole thing in january two thousand and seventeen it's may two thousand and eighteen how long does it take for this council to vote on a relatively simplistic ordinance change that most of the citizens in all wards want it was brought up today earlier that word one word two don't have enough open space and parks why do we punish the lowest income moderate income areas why do they get lower standards than everybody else i don't care what you do option for fair market value for a look at the charts option for actually costs more that's fine in some cases fair market value was less an option for my concern with this is if you read what was presented tonight there's two problems page two item two the verbal presentation and the overhead say this is closing the loophole for any projects fifteen acres or above which is what was simplistically originally proposed but if you actually re document item number two says the director shall have the right to choose the opt out fee so we've done nothing item number further on page two says the city council shall have the right to choose the fee for the opt out feeney on projects greater than fifteen acres so what have we been doing for two years and why are we even discussing it if you're just going to pass another ordinance that continues the opt out fee which a couple of months ago i think we were all very happy that everybody here kind of agreed at least for projects over fifteen acres we wouldn't allow opt outs because they're so precious few of them left after discussing this for so long what difference would it make i heard someone say so i would urge you to strike through because we do read the fine print as citizens on page two which negates item one and i would urge you if you adopt option fo to change item for secondly i am concerned about any ordinance in this town that we passed in two thousand and eighteen that requires the city council annually to change or update the fee the reason we are here is because you haven't done that in thirty years on the flat fee you don't even do it for your own salaries you didn't do it for the seven hundred dollars fee this was proposed in january two thousand seventeen where here sixteen eighteen months later because you didn't do it how long is it going to take you every year annually to argue discuss debate pro long procrastinate and how thorough are five se sessions to re up the fee it's not going to happen so whether you go with option four and square footage whether you go with for market fair market value i urge you to set a formula now rather than a nebulous statement that annually we shall pick a fee because you and i both know that's not going to happen lastly i urge you to vote on this issue that the citizens are tired of being passed on and back and forth to committees thank you so i'll just start questions and we'll start with that position right there this will go to a vote hopefully next week so i will have that opportunity and i think if there's anything we've heard in a long amount of conversations with the community is sometimes it's ok to take time and to try to get it done right when being accused of doing things in a rush and paying the price so i'm sure it's aggravating but i think we have a much better product i'll say the number four i think that was put in there because there could be an instance where there is a need and that gives an option to have the governing body which frankly we've heard ms amar you want this governing party to make these decisions that's why that's in there so if there is a need the governing body has an opportunity over fourteen point nine acres i'll ask ms nuland to speak to number two or and maybe so there's this idea continually that somehow developers are opting out or not and my understanding  is there's never been an opportunity for any developer to opt out of the either or in the past for an r and r existing ordinance there has not been an option for anyone to waive waive out of the fees or opt out of the fees it's always been number two that sentence was put in there to make sure that we do don't have someone trying to sneak through the door and opt out by bringing in only a portion of their development a property that they own in a development that would be under the fourteen acres to  avoid dedication of land and then have another ten acre parcel next to it that they're going to develop in the future and they are bringing in piecemeal this is what we're trying we're trying to do is prevent that from happening in this particular case and giving is the direction from the director making the decision that what constitutes the development it's not the contiguous ownership not just a portion of it that they may be valving at that time so maybe on second reading there could be amendment offered to tighten that language up to make it more descriptive all right ms franks paula i'm definitely for tightening up that language and if we're talking about specific criteria i think those should be listed that way it's not to anyone's discretion and i did have a question about when you had talked about on your example you had talked about the fair market value use the assessor's valuation was that just illustrated or is that the intention going forward help me make sure i'm understanding that correctly that was what we had at my disposal of the fair market value based on looking at properties so the examples that we looked at are so they got the zoning and started developing several years ago so i had to go back three years ago in some of those cases in order to find out what the land value was before they got approval for the project that's going ahead and in some cases the land valued more than doubled after they got the zoning in there so we wanted to go back to raw land before they had all the right all the entitlements that came with the zoning and the approval of their particular project that is one of the things that we can look at again the assessors record is not a perfect this is the cost of land there's a lot of people  the problem with assessors records that we have found is they don't all race separate out value of land versus value of land and improvements in the records there so it gets very difficult to pull them apart in order to come up with a fair market that's what i was concerned about because i can look at properties here that i can see are highly undervalued based on what i know that they would sell for based on their own so i know that just concerned me the other thing i wanted to talk about is we're talking about the square foot so i'm going to give an example of some facility i know or a complex i know out in california they're duplexes and each side is six thousand square feet so each you know there are six thousand square feet on each side and so they're duplexes and i'm just trying to and i know that that is a rare circumstance but we're seeing some fairly large properties being built where they're doing scrapes and rebuilds so what does that do to someone if we're talking about you know ten duplex six thousand person what does that mean because we're not talking about the those people being that great of an impact when you're talking about you know numbers of cars and impacts on our parks and rec and all that so how does that square footage square up with something where somebody wants to build some luxury duplexes are they then penalized and driven away from that product because it's cost prohibitive i'm not sure what would drive a person way from the cost but yes it is the big mansions and it would be paying a higher square footage with possibilities sumption that there were more people living in them those units there based on the square footage of  particular units that's the golf club maker one is the example which seems in that particular neighborhood thirty five hundred square foot home is an anomaly in that particular neighborhood  am i'm not sure what drives people away from the cost if you're buying a forty six thousand square foot house i'm not sure if six thousand dollars is going to keep you away from buying that shared no i understood i just had a few people people who develop in area and who are saying that now they'll be dissuaded from some of these different types of development it'll just it'll it pushes things one direction or the other so that's only two questions i had right now several discussions on this i was really trying to hone in on some of those examples and think you miss new and you've provided those over the course and we continue to see them and i like these discussions a whole heck of a lot better than the anecdotal ones that we can all come up with whatever we want to come up with so thank you for that to the point on this option for in the square footage in between the last session and now i was poking around some of the other ordinances that cities have and i found some of these density factors that they use and it seems to me that and the density factors as i understand them adds another piece to the formula the formula that you guys have used for a long time or something similar to it the you add it's a single family residence for example i think in arvada it's two point eight and then if you do r m f stuff it's you know one point seven or one point five something like that and so if you do that density factor i think i didn't write these codes but ostensibly that should balance things out and i ran some of the calculations on it and you run through and lo and behold at the end of it if you have say sixty single family and two hundred are meth units if you throw in those density factors that are supposed to accomplish that the exact example you were talking about how many people live in a six thousand square foot house if you throw those then lo and behold those numbers are right about the same it's for our method be double the fee but it's almost exactly double the people so it almost works out even so i'm wondering if so a compromise position to the square footage and what we were originally at would be this density factor because it seems like the other cities have struggled with that i didn't really see any option four's per se out there but i did see these and i  think maybe that's a piece that we could compromise on and especially since we've seen tonight some of the data where option four isn't exactly some the result isn't an earth shattering result i would say that option fo does have a we are rewriting the entire ordinance but i was wondering your thoughts on the density factor if we just added that to our original formula talk a little about that a little more on good evening travis parker playing director we use those d n c for me is currently in the school and dedication fee and it would be nice to have these conversations together because we're going to be bringing forward a proposed change in the school and education fee going from the density factor where we have one point eight for multi family and two point five for duplex in a three point two five for single family bringing that more in line with this square footage here and part of the reason is in the course of this development we we've done research on research that you'll hopefully see coming forward on the number of people per square feet in in housing units and we found a fairly consistent one person per five hundred square feet throughout all the different variations of multifamily duplexes and smaller single family the ratio does fall apart as you get to really large homes and so so you know somebody building a six or ten thousand square foot home it starts to get a little wacky but in terms of multifamily having a one point eight multiplier for every multifamily would be at studio or three bedroom that's that causes the worst discrepancy than we saw in doing it by the square footage measure ok but at least on the right path that adding a density factor will help with some of the problems we heard last time meaning there's this idea of inequity if you're treating all of the housing stock the same does the density factor help us with that equity it's closer than any of the first three options i think option four gets even further down that path but certainly it's better than any of the first three options but it density so it does kind of fall in between it could be a nice compromise position and then as we move forward with the school if you're developing a more robust square footage for me was in that when when is that supposed to be ready the school for me so it's past the planning commission it'll be coming to you in the next couple of months so so we could see that formulation sometime this year we'll see that and you've seen it it matches option for it it's doing it by square footage ok we're got it understood well thank you for that i appreciate it that's all i keep in mind i think the examples thrown out is that something counsel need to decide if that is a square foot dollar square foot whether it's two dollars whether it's a dollar fifty whether it's three dollars whether it's one dollar and then i think the council gave direction to create a housing committee to look at the other part of this which could be potential incentives or how do you you know potentially have a  affordable component that can also be built off pretty easily built off of a dollar per square foot figure based on the definition that's in side of the ordinance  i hope you don't throw rocks at me but there are a couple of other provisions i want to question that made you coffee thank you i'll leave you a tip for we're having this discussion because these fees are designed to provide a community benefit is that correct thank you and fourteen sixteen zero four  zero at the discretion of the direction of the director all or a portion of the part dedication required may remain in private ownership or private use of that development confusing and it doesn't take much to confuse me these days my other and thank you for that my other concern then is that in looking at the calculations for our dedication as opposed to other municipalities ours was the lowest five point five acres per thousand residents except that it is actually ten point five acres per thousand somewhere along the line someone decided we no longer need regional parks so a five point five acre of par five point five acres of park land per one thousand population was set aside for regional parks sent somebody decided we didn't need more regional parks that's why they couriers is not being charged so not only is it been thirty years since we have raised the price per unit we have forgiven nearly half of the parkland dedication that was required when was the the new and can you tell me when this for sixteen point zero three zero was calculated in decided that we didn't need more regional parts it is it was in one thousand nine hundred three nineteen eighty three so that would be thirty five years ago thirty five years ago and that thirty years we haven't changed this thirty and in fact we have reduced it by five acres nearly half because we decided we didn't need regional park fees i would suggest that a lot of this calculation could have been bolstered had we left that in there and just  i don't know whether we want to revisit whether we should have regional parks it may be difficult to find enough they can land do a regional park however why just give up that five acres  say let's throw it back in there along with the square footage we give that follow up on the from there please the we haven't given up on regional parks we the council and looking at that we felt that there was adequate amount of regional park space throughout the community we have today over of owned or managed i should say own because we do have some lease in there thirty six point eight acres of regional per thousand population of regional park space within the city of lakewood as a whole yes and yes it has gone down over the years per capita but still well above national averages or anything else for regional park space twelve and a half acres per thousand people in arvada still today and we're five and a half acres it was ten and a half and we reduce that by acres and you know it's one thing to say well we're not focusing on additional regional parks that's an entirely another thing to say and the way you're not going to have to we're just going to take that whole five acres out of the mix so asa just we put that five acres back in the mix and use it for  neighborhood and other part classifications in option four there is no standard for park space and we're not waiving anything option four is over fifteen acres we get ten percent of development doesn't matter what type and our type under fifteen acres we get cash based on the square footage of the unit understand that how does that stack up against our farmer calculation what difference  does the difference between ten percent and the ten point five percent per thousand i couldn't tell you because it all depends on the density of the development i think it would be very important to know that there's more and more setting these and perhaps that brings in mr skilling's question about density makes that more important at the current time there is no way to determine how many the density of what type of development will happen on a parcel or fifteen it at one acre lots such as the taylor property or it could be three four hundred units on that fifteen acres it depends on the zoning in with the type of developments going to happen on it there were r emoving completely the same bases that other cities used to calculate parkland needs per thousand people if we go with option four yes and that's my concern thank you so mr able just to just to follow up and clarify i think you are going fourteen to sixteen s o two zero zero to number three mr franks pointed that out so that provision is in there and i guess mr williams or on this new one could you talk a little bit about that and the reason why i apologized but i did talk about this and whether or not we should take it out based on your conversation at the last council meeting and decided that we didn't really have clear direction from you about whether we should take it out or leave it and so we left it in there and it's up to your discretion whether that should remain or not we wanted to make sure that you were clear that the private developments typically when that happens is because they're providing puc and recreation amenities within those developments which is why there is opportunity sometimes for them to press to waive some of those fees and i'm i think ross has given that as an example before that plaza area that was considered public space so even though it's in a private development it's public space so so at the tables i think that's so that's ok but i believe this verbiage doesn't allow for that understanding can we be set up a little bit to say if it's on private property it's still require some public use i think that's what the i think that's what this is trying to say but we can try to we can try to tighten up the language a little bit so that it's more clear it's a little it  and we can bring that back as a member next week councilor abel would you be willing to work on number three to something and offer that as an amendment ok thank you mr cox not tonight were you looking at please go back to the slide that shows that different examples of what this all costs depending on which option we go through thank you ok so i'm as this is really helpful and then i did also have the question about the assessor fee and whether it includes in title men's and zoning and all of that because that would certainly impact the fair market value which you already discussed so you know when i'm first looking at that this there are definitely cases where with the square footage this if we to two dollars a square foot this is more expensive using these examples then if we did the fair market value so that's just wanted to point that out  and i realize i'm the one who will brought this up so i think that you know when i first saw this is like did i make a proposal that that's ultimately going to counter what i what i want to accomplish but i think that ultimately doing it by square foot is still the most fair way to do it because it does still as you mentioned it talks about travis that this is the closest waited to get her number of people so i still think that is the best and most fair way to do this if we want to also accomplish achieving affordability we would have to look into going down to the one dollar a square foot which in some cases would be less than and other cases comparable to the fair market value so i just wanted to throw out there looking at either the one dollar or the dollar fifty and sort of the two dollar but i do alternately think that doing it by square footage is the most fair way and it addresses that regressive issue we were trying to avoid where if you're moving into an apartment you're paying more of the on if you're moving into a large home so parks like we bought the taylor property and i wasn't completely clear the land from that but recently bought the taylor property or what we spend on sales tax for parks and open space i'm just wondering if you have any sense of what  park dollars are coming from because it's not just the fee right we are funds that we use for development of early we have to fund these open space fund and the city's conservation trust fund last year in the open space fund the city collected thirty five dollars per resident to go towards park improvements but also goes towards our maintenance and in the open space face fun we bring in approximately five million dollars in revenue seventy five percent of that goes towards maintenance operations other twenty five percent goes for park improvements and park acquisitions in the conservation trust fund which is your lottery dollars it varies varies year to year but last year we received nine dollars and seventy two cents for every new every resident in the city of lakewood not new residents new residents add to that total but nine dollars to seventy cents for in  lottery that's about a million three million four and that all goes into the park improvements and acquisitions and that's where some of the funding for the taylor property came from is the use of those funds to pay for a large portion the difficulty in separating out new from old it is that we're in in full city we get we're picking pieces up all over the place to try to accommodate and provide for the community out there but there is some benefit to say new residents are also going to be contributing in our open space and there are a lottery dollars that we take in for towards this purpose i would there's one other point to add on to what russ just said and that is when we have a big opportunity like the taylor property sixty acre site we actually also can take advantage of what we would call like legacy grants from both open space which is different than the attributable share that ross just spoke of as well as the lottery dollars to go co were applying for grants to reimburse the city because because of the type of acquisition that the says it's a it's a real jewel and i think both open space and co have acknowledged that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity so it's not only the attributable share conservation trust and our cation of open space but it's also a grant lottery dollars now cities outside of jefferson county do not necessarily have an open space sales fact program but there are some communities that have their own sales tax special used tax for open space but not it's not a generally across the community that there is a specific designated revenue stream for its parks and recreation yeah ok thanks and part of what i'm i'm asking this because i'm really just trying to contextualize the differences between you excuse me here the director may waive all or a portion of the dedication requirements for individual housing units i would not like to see us having any kind of language in here regarding affordable housing i'd like to see that struck personally this isn't about affordable housing this is about what we're doing with our land here and i don't agree with that also if i could just follow up on that so maybe we can clean that up so i think we have a few options we can either dump it or we can  change the language or we can you know tried to some if it were for going to square footage you could try to put a dollar amount or a fifty percent reduction or a twenty five percent reduction so that can either we could either address that tonight or that something that could be addressed next week that the pleasure of the council that trying to get this is tight as we can for the community for next week and i know that was one of the ones where i think we had discrepancies in coun whether we keep it keep in mind we do have a housing committee that's going to look at a lot of the stuff granted it wouldn't be in this but this this language it's really directed right at lie tech and i don't think we have any current applications in for like tech projects do we of the top tier and so i don't know what would be a political to it right now i think there may be one coming but not in right now that's fair information for the council to decide i think so we can come back to that ms johnson but i wanted to make sure counsel so we can try to clarify that  throughout the document in fourteen sic will an example fourteen sixteen thirty and or d it's talking about the director developed criteria to further define usable land throughout this document we're giving the director a lot of discretion i'm having a little bit of problems with  with that and also another place and i don't have it in front of me were the directors given the power to opt out i i can't recall for that i saw that i thought the opt out was removed was it so there is no opt out and i think under d c where you're seeing the director will develop criteria to further define usable land i mean the director of our parks there the folks are professional parks people that's that's their specialty so i'm not sure if if they're not the people to make that criteria who would be because i certainly wouldn't know as a mayor what that would be  also under option four we've got where the fee is said and you only by city resolution i think that we need to just figure out a figure and we've got enough to do without committing here every year and trying to figure out a newfie we can't even get through this or set it up we're going to be good so we'll see  know just like to stay i'm i'm for the fair market rate just make one rate and thought i had to wake up so ok i was taking a nice nap over here a couple of questions that i have about the square footage the numbers that we're seeing in this  table up here these are per house or pay per apartment and there are a one time fee so someone would not ever pay that ever again so for example using the forty west residences they would only be adding i'm just using that dollars square foot number nine hundred ten dollars to the price of that particular unit one time done over with same with the two dollars square foot even on the golf club acreage that would be seven thousand dollars added one time to the cost of that unit thank you that seems square footage is the way to go as far as i'm concerned thank you vincent just as we go through this and i'm throwing this out because i think once again there's different parts of the city and i just offer for consideration that there is finally some things that are happening along colfax and even along sheridan and in those neighborhoods do you have any input on what would happen to some of those developments if we went from a fair market value or from the current clear up to say two dollars a square foot unit especially based on those apartments what that would do you look to watch i mean every development does a pro forma and they look at the costs of building and what they can sell those units for and you know these numbers will be built into the cost of the units so if there comes a point where the additional cost of developing and paying this fee makes it so that they can't charge and you know they can't charge enough for those units then they won't move forward on a project i don't know of but i can't possibly say whether these numbers cross that barrier or not ok and this applies to businesses also correct or just residential and that's partly why if you do look at a fee that can be reexamined we're going to be able to again we're going to be able whether it's a year or two years you're to be able to gain data on what that is and what those fees are doing and be able to see what it's doing mr meta thank you mayor just real quick one comment you know i feel like when it comes to this issue affordable housing i know we've got a huge problem  lakewood just like we do all over the metro area all over the country i feel like we're in a little rowboat in the middle of the pacific ocean being tossed about by forces that we have very little control over to tell you the truth and to me if we're going to deal with affordable housing the best that we can we have to do it on a global level and look at the whole big picture and do whatever is possible here which i'm not sure there's a lot we can do but but i'm willing to try i don't think it's a good idea to deal with it actually i wanted to echo that same thing i think that it's important that we look at death for the housing holistically we have a housing study we have stock we have probably a larger incentive programs this need for me needs to stay focused on parkland but i did have one question i've been trying to kind of where did you come up with the five hundred square feet being per person what study did that come from just trying to reconcile that that's not the experience in my neighborhood most of us are either empty nesters or never nested in the first place so i mean that last category never missed in the first place but where did you come up that's not our experience in our neighborhood at all and i will admit that is it is a ratio that does fall apart as homes get larger but it's we did a review of a large number of developments in lakewood multifamily duplexes some newer single family developments we didn't tackle a lot of older neighborhood we didn't have any older neighborhoods or older developments but it was a surprisingly consistent number among the large number of examples that we looked at but mostly neighborhoods that were geared towards maybe families or younger i mean a green mountain neighborhood in like you said it's just not the experience pretty much in our pocket at all it's a lot of folks original buyers you know that type of thing and so i'm just one of those density i just was wondering where that number came absolutely it is looking at more recent developments and using using census data as well but looking at more recent developments ok but because i was trying to look at the census data that was one of your data points that you're looking there ok thank you and i think that's actually interesting because you have neighborhoods in transition right where you have younger folks coming in or you know the original owner still in place mr so i just want to be clear that this option for that's what we're looking at in this package right this is option four so i'm not giving up on my original options which were in the previous packet all highlighted up in everything so that we're all clear number i want to ask a procedural question perhaps to the mayor himself and now we see this going next week because we want to be specific we've talked about amendments i will probably be offering an amendment on density factor because i think that's a good compromise have talked a little bit about it today it's not a surprise the density factors can be found just worms got some all the a lot of other jurisdictions have it but what how do you see this process going next week now that we have two separate packets we've got an option for which is new and then we've got the old ordinance and we're updating with three options so how do we mechanic lee how are we going to do this you guys have talked about amendments to option four which is really an amendment to the first option so i don't know where of your answers on the so the best way i can figure is two things so tonight try to get consensus on on the things that we can and give get that direction going so that'll come back but we can't then i would encourage those amendments to either work with the parks department or mr cox and get that out to the rest of council as well would be helpful and so that we have a pretty solid process next monday night we are working off number four that was the direction to go to here so i think amendments that you would want that are different would just have to be offered in that capacity well to that point i thought the direction was just to expect tonight direction was we weren't we were scrapping the old ordinance and the options three it was tonight's purpose was to further explore option four to see if that was something we wanted to use option for the original that's how i took last meeting i don't think i'm crazy we didn't decide i'd consensus was that we were scrapping the entire ordinance and moving on and option four i certainly don't think you're crazy i think it was  i think there's a lot going on but we don't vote past eleven pm on tuesdays but so it's so good to go a little bit further i mean i guess what we have here was what the direction was was to bring back based on the consensus of council and so if it wants to be changed in some dramatic form then either we can try to present that tonight and see if there's consensus to bring it back to that but we want to get this as close to what it's going to look like a second reading on monday night so the community is fully aware of what that looks like and my take was i think that we wanted to have a fully flushed out option for because the public and nobody had to add a chance to digest it to vet it and so that's what tonight is we are digesting option four but option four remains option four right alongside options one two and three which means the original ordinance this council votes on option for that would mean that you're getting rid of the old the old fewer nets that we had and you're replacing it with option four if you want to vote on option one that means that you're keeping the old feel ordinance or at least a lot of the structure and you're just changing the things we talked about in option one that's how i saw it that's how i saw tonight that it's a flush out  probably a bad terminology but no that's fair that's all i saw this tonight i mean you know  the second reading is may fourteenth the so that is next week and staff just needs direction as to what is it that you want to spring forward do you want option four with these modifications that are being discussed today maybe strike c and change you know on talk about affordable housing etc or do you want to strike option for one hour and offer to have us come back with option  one two three so we just interaction what do you want us to come in front of you to you on next week i thought you were coming back with all four options tonight was the chance  four we come back with options one two three and now four that's where i was at with it because we obviously didn't at the end of last week's whenever we were here whenever we were having this discussion we didn't say we didn't have any vote that i was part of that said we're just scrapping the old paradigm the old options one two three and we're just going to go with option for that certainly wasn't agreed to the question was there wasn't enough time for the public to come in and comment on option four and that's why we're here tonight but let me real quick i know mr cox you want to give us a little advice mr abel is that advice on the after mr cox well we had this ordinance on first reading last week how much can and how many to what degree can we change it and it still be the same ard continued the second reading with how many dozen changes well yeah at some point it's a new ordinance a grant you that this was a little bit unusual because option four came along in the course of discussing one through one through three and it was proposed to be brought back i don't think at the exclusion of the other options but going into second reading we need to have an ordinance that is what we're discussing and second reading doesn't mean someone could make an amendment to said liked to borrow paragraph three c from option two and added thompson four but we're going to work off of one of them as the ordinance even if it gets piecemealed as we go and i do think getting some of the language worked out tonight would make that somewhat sim you in there pretty quickly but yeah i mean there's no there's no hard fast rule in that it's just we're going to know when we have something if somebody comes up with something completely different and it's outside of what we've been talking about  last few sessions then you know we've got to take another look at how much public notice there was on that but this is been a process so we've started with one through three we added four we focused on four we brought it forward tonight the others are still out there and could be parts ordinances like you'd like if you're fixing up an old car you can borrow this provision from that one and add it to one but one of them's got to be the the master that we that we present in the packets for next week it's got to be the the the somebody someone's got to propose that it's going to be your option for or not and the we need consensus on that to go forward with one option or  another i don't think we want to go in with four choices the second reading that's that's not our think that explanations about as clear as mississippi river water  and i know it's a good try thank you very much so it looks like it's one through three with the motion made by council or go online to incorporate four is what i think and write for not of the exclusion of the other three is that what you're sayin that wasn't the way i understood it i understood option four was going to replace all the other three we never even vetted options one two and three yet when one moment let me just get a point of order  recess so i know that i was asked immediately after the session last time whether there would be the opportunity to continue discussing some of these other concepts and that we were throwing away altogether and that's as i understood it but that option four was the preferred template to be subject to amendment as we went along but it's going to it's going to come down to motion or consensus tonight or motion next week as to which one we're working off of so he makes a motion to approve option four with the following amendments there's going to be a vote on that motion if someone says we should use option two instead there's got to be a vote on that motion if there's a second for it  but what we really don't want to do is go into second reading with lots of choices we should have an ordinance that we're working off of even if we know there are going to be proposed amendments and at this point if i had to guess option four is that preferred template but we haven't really gotten consensus on that what's up no i'm just trying to find what we have posted in the packet for monday the fourteenth is only option four we don't have it yet we were waiting until after we had direction from tonight and then as the package is posted it is it is posted but it doesn't have this information is fair to say with it not being exclusive then all four could be a part of that and and i do think that we worked on one two and three but we would need to figure out four and go forth with four options a concern i heard last week after that after the motion to proceed with option four was that that was new people hadn't seen it it needed to be looked at more closely but that that would be the focus of tonight's discussion was let's look at option for this that could lead to a council saying we we have a consensus to use for and we would like to do that for second reading even subject to amendments later on but i think there's the there's the option of counsel deciding that there's a consensus for one of the others instead it's just we've been focusing on after four because it was the new one i think that's the that's that's crystal clear no well so i'm thrown off by this process confusion but i wanted to talk a little bit about the affordability component and why i think it's relevant so i think i'll skip to that real quick as it relates to this affordable housing waiver i'm whole heartedly in support of and the reason is is because any additional costs to affordable housing units through  impact fees or any type of fixed cost that we're going to basically assess on these properties are going to translate into basically less units that's what i heard from the housing group and and as an example you can imagine let's you know arbitrarily ten million dollars buys you one hundred units let's just say if you raise the cost and you only have that ten million dollars the only have that one amount of money based on the grants or federal funding or whatever else you have and then you raise the fee it's going to go not towards building units it's going to go towards parks and that's going to reduce the supply and they'll be less affordable housing units with the eighty him and him and i anyway my point is is that i think this fee is related to affordability i think it is related to the supply of affordable housing units and any increases that we see are going to take away from that supply in that building and yet it'll still use the same amount of land it'll still be a relatively same size it's just going to be a few less units and we don't really know what that looks like it really just depends on the fee itself and what the costs are so i think everything we do when we talk about impact fees and every regulation we put on these things that increase the fees you have your fixed cost you have your variable costs and those things are all affected by everything we do whether it's setbacks whether it's you know so i think this discussion warrants talking about affordability and i think the the waiver is an important factor to  consider and i think as we talk about housing the housing study i think that's a whole nother issue or we'll be talking about some of the same things so i do think we're going to have more discussions about affordability but i think this also factors in and so should be considered  i mean we only have a few ways of controlling affordability and that's the fees we assess the supply we allow the regulations we put in place those are all the market driven ways to do it now you could have in some places for example they have you know setting setting the fee a government price you know a fixed price but we can't do that in the state of colorado that's against the law so we don't have that option we could require more affordable units that's something that may come up as part of the discussion with the housing study  in the the other issues we're going to talk about with housing so there are very limited tools you can give land away i mean there there's very few things we can do but this is something we can do so i think we should ok so the first time when i made when i made the motion at our last meeting i made the motion that we discuss option for as that we adopt option for at second reading on the next regular meeting with this discussion so that because the public hadn't had a chance to look at it and examin etc so that is that is than ten of my motion at the time and that we voted on so i would say i think that the second piece of this is that we need to i think we have a common goal that we want to have this conversation be as clear as possible the next time around so that we can finish this because i think we owe that to our community that  know that that we complete this process and if we need to have an one option that we are operating under my understanding is that we are operating under option four amendments would be offered to option four and then you know i think that having this is clear and narrow as possible will best serve our community and our discussions between now and that day i think that the square foot so i don't know if we need to get consensus on that again now so i think we we better think sure that we have a clear understanding that we're so i don't know if we if we have consensus to move forward with option four or not so that's my first question that's what i had intended and i thought that we had voted on so then number two the second thing is that other topics that we need to get consensus on i do agree with what councilor lib your was saying about keeping in the affordable housing component and then i think that the i guess depending on where we land on the consensus of whether or moving forward with option four if we don't have consensus and we're moving forward with option one i would still like us to change it to square footage so how's that for helpful clearer but we'd have to go back to the original motion and there was consensus that this was to go forward i can do consensus right now the council wants to give consensus to number four going forward and then we can go into the other realm of things so is there consensus to move number four forward to second reading with amendments as our template right yes yes yes so is there a consensus seeing some head shaking yes no yes all right there's a consensus to move number four forward so secondary to that and forgive me i know i know that there's lights on secondary to that that will still allow you to bring forth your amendments as needed to this process now one in particular that we had was two in four with suggested language does the group want to try to clean that up or let that go tonight mr cox what did you have for well let me there are a couple of questions involved so i'm certain that i'm good at capturing the intent of some of the people who spoke and also i have a question for ross but i'll start with the easy one i think number four which is the exclusive authority of the council to accept fees in lieu even over fifteen acres and i agree with you you never know what circumstances are going to arise where there isn't that land available and or it's not desirable land and you want to have the option of taking the fee i think it's good to have that but i think to have a standard in there whether it's for good cause or not a finding of good cause the city council make that so that there has to be a finding that this is the circumstance that justifies the use of fees in lieu rather than land for a larger project so i would just suggest adding in a standard in there that's for a good cause shown the council has the authority to accept payment of fees in l obviously of council doesn't want that option then that can be removed but if you agree that there's a need for exceptions rare occasion having a standard that the that is defined as good  cause might be sufficient to avoid any arbitrary decisions on that basis you would just put for good cause shown because showing the city council shall have the exclusive authority cetera et cetera that's way if you want to keep that in that language probably should be in there if you decide not to have that provision that it can all come out number three i guess my question for cancer able is is it acceptable if if the private land is held open for public use of the private parkland that was the point i was trying to make that way it becomes a true community benefit as opposed to a private  i think you could say all or part of the park that occasion required this is all existing language may or main in private ownership and then where it says for private use of the development maybe substitute  but that go in a calculation for parkland i mean because some of those things are not going to want open right or a closed court yard to be open to the public how would you have that access so i just don't know where that balances in your be locked up or in even indoors so if it were an indoor swimming pool no it wouldn't be acceptable and i'm not sure that even an outdoor swimming crackle should be acceptable but i'm not sure that we want to call an outdoor swimming pool open space either so if it's if it's i don't want to overcomplicate it but if it is something that a but developer could use as a an attraction  marketing amenity then it wouldn't count as opens but if it's you know a tray or picnic tables something like that then and i think it and then number two russes i heard to describe it that's to cover the situation where you've got multiple parcels being developed at different times is that the only scenario you can think of that you'd want to have that flexibility because what i've proposed is to begin that sentence with i wrote this a while ago and i hear it where a project consists of phased development or otherwise involves multiple parcels developed at different times the director shall have the authority to determine the total land area etc etc so it's for that situation where someone is trying to say i'm just developing this and then they come back in with another parcel later on and it's not determining the fee it's determining the total size of the project as to whether it should be a fee or not and if so how much  harrison i just had the question about how we would define if we were to pull out or waive fees for affordable thank you well when i think a phased in projects like target site comes to mind the first built the west something or other and now they're building some apartment houses for seniors and i think there's still to be a phase three is that right developed as something so yes yeah that's what i thought and we have to remember that when something is built it's built there's no going back on this  i'm a little concerned with with the way that we've gone about this frankly two weeks ago or we could go in we did this we actually never vetted options one two and three the motion was made for option four and we went with that and now we're we're trying to to piecemeal that and to make amendments based on option four when we never even talked about option one two and snake this easy and i would like to make a motion we adopt option one it's very simple we don't make their motions out study sessions my apologies didn't we do that last time when it was a study session on this we just gave direction already though for a number four to go forward well i'd like to give direction we accept option number one make it easy fair market value and then just be done with us so is there consensus that we don't even have number one to look at but as a consensus to move number one or word or market for fair market rate fair market value thank you there's not consensus thank you though this go on i was just wanting to clarify if the so c about affordable housing if that is going to stay in this option or if we have convinced put our keep it in or so we can do a consensus call i don't think that there is consensus but from if there is is a consensus to remove c which is the director may waive all or a portion of the dedication requirements for individual housing so this is the affordable housing component is our consensus to remove that so keep it then keep him keep it in for now and then when it's a second reading you may have a motion to pull it all ok do it up or down so that the see which is speaks to affordable housing is staying  at this point or it took its second reading you can vote on amend to take that out if you mine amend or modify i mean i think we heard the bending upon there's a lot of different things but i think there were some good cases made the why shouldn't at this point as well mr skilling so again a procedural issue so my amendment that i would propose next week of course when i can do such things would be to go back to the first reading that we had three weeks ago whenever it was and i would be wanting to then i guess amend option four to take out the language of option four and replace it with option one from the first reading that we had knowing that is there a way and if it's multiple votes multiple i don't know how you layer that i'm just that's what i intend to do and i want to make it easy on everybody involved that when i do that everybody's heads don't explode that when i do that so that's what i intend to do how do we go about doing that or if somebody else wants to offer option  two but that's what i want to do if i have to operate off of option for then my amendment would be scrapped option four and replace it with option one from the first reading that would be my amendment so then i would encourage you to work with mr cox on that or anybody else on council to work with mr cox and amenable motion in that regard right now we did have consensus to bring option four forward tonight so it might give you a clue them are we're going to get it done extremely well something that's going to be better than what's existing indeed all right anything else because there paul can i ask a question fee be set by resolution annually i think it was councilor johnson who said that might be too often that was arbitrary we could change that if you wanted to we could that's another decision point i think so i think we can have a conversation i really want to encourage council to work on their amendments and to have them vetted to make sure that we can try to have a clean process in place next week anything else cool all right yes it will be up to coun because i think it depends upon what the ok so i'm going to skip my report but i'm going to ask you is there any staff reports ok ms johnson report discuss transparency and have an election one o one from the attorney's office bear we have a board to meeting on wednesday seven thirty am forty west and i'll see you there all right so we will adjourn at eleven forty one and council will reconvene in the executive session that in ten minutes reconvene at first national meeting first special meeting right where we will not return to council chambers so they get our police agents so we appreciate you thank you to council for a good evening