hello welcome to back story with joan goldstein joan goldstein my guest today and there are three of them are our citizens they are long time residents of princeton who are concerned about the schools and about the children in the schools and they have spoken up and they're going to tell us today what matters and why they chose to speak out so my very first guest is joel schwartz over there  right and joel you said that you just heard about it and went to a meeting and that's how you got pulled in correct yes in january a friend asked if we were going to the presentation a j w we said presentation so we went we heard lots of interesting things we had some questions and our questions lead to more questions excellent ok next to joel is kip cherry who is considered was concerned about the valley ro school that how you got in fire starts how i got involved i heard that there might be some changes afoot and it might involve value or school so i mean really try to find out more ok and here is ralph perry and ralph you board of education for coming up with a cover a just decision to scale back the referendum from one hundred thirty million dollars to twenty seven million dollars all a referendum is a request to the public to improve the board issuing a bomb that is going to pay for all kinds of projects all kinds of those things of the school system and which eventually the taxpayer in princeton is going to pay the interest and the principle we paring the infrastructure repairing we need air conditioning heating just repairing the buildings whatever has to be done that's one large part of the twenty seven million dollars the other one is something that is unfortunate but it's a security problem we have to build a security system to protect our children so the idea is let's still what has to be done now fix the building do the security thing and that of cost twenty seven million dollars and the rest of the one study over the next year and we're bringing it back in november of twenty nineteen just about a year from  the board also said that they will invite the public to join the committees to discuss the details of what appears to be down though if the new systems are going to be more committees to work on each of these areas so they would be experts and security and see and also that high school is going to be expanded a little bit with some new classrooms and also be some athletic field activity so there are four major areas in each area needs real expertise to design properly exactly what we're going to do and to evaluate exactly what we should do it is the projects sustainable is it is it green are there alternatives that are less expensive or better so alternative his expertise as an educator not as a facilities planner so none of those people have any experience in design or construction or facilities management on the other hand there are lots of people who are princeton who have careers in architecture planning design construction facilities management many of those people willing to contribute their time and expertise to help in this process over the past year the schools in the board have relied centrally on one person their architect and one architecture firm  their advice and the architect is paid it is paid on the basis of a percentage of the construction cost so as well matter how well intentioned the person is they're incentivized to spend more money rather than less so very important in my mind for these advisory committees to set goals for instance security you can have two different kinds of security one is is very visible and one is it's into civil and from my point of view it should be invisible because we don't want to kids going to an armed camp we want them to feel free to learn and to be educated and there are ways to do that that are very good but they require real thinking and involves integration between the various disciplines so you've got the hardware folks doing  security you've got the architect and other disciplines so that this is very important that the security system for instance be integrated into the existing buildings so this is what the advisory committee can really do is set the tone for how these projects m board came to the realisation that there are some basic ingredients missing one they mention immediately it's public participation the public did not participate in any of the answers coming back on that was one major point the other which is a much more important point was the board also realize that the demographics that they were using to drive the whole plan how many students i want to be there how many new classes do we need are more than four years old and any go unique economic forces and population forces so our demographics are not the typical and yet the study that was done was basically off the shelf so we need to really rethink where we're going in terms of our population and we also need to look again at the capacity of our schools because it may be that we didn't really analyze the capacity that well for instance i heard a parent complain that the class that one of their kids was and had only six had sixteen people sixteen kids and they were suggesting that it was crowded to me sixteen is a pretty good number so there are a lot of things that we need to look at again and we need to help think that the parents also to understand what we have and what we don't have and where we can go in the parents did not have very much opportunity did i had a problem worth lack of inclusiveness well right there the the back story on the background of the of the referendum didn't involve lots of stakeholder groups the first meeting i went to in january i soon i was attending a meeting in which the school district and the board wanted to get information wanted to get opinions from residents about what they had mine instead of the very first meeting in january we were told what was didn't the board didn't want to answer questions we continue to ask the same questions i continued not to get answers what kind of questions were you asking that you weren't getting answers he gave an example because well the operating expenses is a huge example it was a long time before we got any numbers from the superintendent on that as and when we did the math and looked at the referendum it looked as though the expenses that were going to be created by this referendum were greater than our income our new income  revenue with a levy because we're only allowed a two percent increase in our levy so that's another complexity that a lot of people don't understand they're the bonds and paying back the bonds but also every project has expenses they're hidden they're not they're not in the referendum and yet when we vote we're also voting to spend money for our staff operating the building this sort of thing and this is coming out of taxpayers that is that what that's right but there's no you percent cap for the expenses and so legally we have a ceiling and we cannot go but beyond that silly this is state law and yet if you do the math if you actually implemented all the pieces of the referendum the whole hundred thirty million dollars you're going to have greater expenses than you were going to have greater or greater revenue so this is a really key problem that we didn't really grapple with and i believe behind the scenes that the school corps poor began to realize that this is going to be a big problem  cost to how are we gonna pay for it and three what keeps a what happened afterwards how much is a girl no cost to maintain it you go and buy a car you're paying for maintenance every year it cost money it's the same thing if what ever you do in a project in school the afterword expenses whatever in the picture something speak right he was ok you asked about what other sorts of questions we were asking on day one one of the proposals presented was to build a new school for grades five and six right so many people said well that sounds like a great idea we could use a new school but then we asked well why did you propose that as a solution to rising romans why not make expansions to the elementary schools and the answer was given what we looked at that and we actually did studies of it we said could we see the studies but we didn't we didn't get the stud one of the things kipp pointed out is that when you build a new school you generate new costs just just by virtue of having a school the cost might be two three four five million dollars no one knew the answers no one or no one provided the answers would it cost to expand the elementary schools we didn't get those answers well those those four elementary schools still have to continue we can't function because half for students attend them we still have to invest money in those schools so people said well how does building a new school relate to the fact that we have four existing school was that we need indefinitely so we need to feasibility on the alternative of expanding the elementary schools rather than a five six school because the real  benefits of doing the elementary school additions is that it can be done want to time they may cost less we don't know they could cost more but we think probably less and if the population increase doesn't occur when we think it's going to we can stop and hold back on a different another addition so you can do things in a sequence whereas if you do a five six school it's all there all at once and all the operating costs are there at once and if you don't have enough kids to fill it or if you have too many kids whatever you don't have any flexibility it's worth pausing to reflect on that ten years after i moved to princeton little brook elementary school and johnson park elementary school were both closed for a period of years because in romans decline and woman necessarily a steady upwards incline populations may increase that doesn't assume either going to be more children public schools and so one of the questions that were asked is well maybe it's more efficient to do exactly what kip said it's clear that there is in roman gro w and community park less clear than that that it's happening at the other three elementary schools if you build one new school you're spending forty three million dollars on day one maybe it's better to spend to expend spend community park and then see what happens with with the other schools not spend that money or are you saying work with what exists rather than right you know and ok so that and i'm only a cost issue but how about those kids just the fifth and sixth graders being isolated in a way from the other student well that's another area where we didn't have public discussion and that's where the stakeholders come in their parents the faculty the citizens at large those that are affected they need to come together and discuss said you know what you really have had this controversy if we'd done this from the beginning because the public would have already bought into the plan yeah and then you know think about the kids just a couple of fifth or sixth graders lonely isolated and staff you know that would normally be with part of the other one level high you could build on top of them and build another level yeah the idea was changing the k to five school to become a k to six corps that can solve all of the problem expensive than building the new five sec school and i said do we need a palace or do we need to educate our children but with the point is that it would have been great to have a community conversation based on the facts and the studies all of our elementary school sit sit on nice sized pieces of ground that schools could be expanded even on one level you would have been a good thing to have a community conversation about with all the facts on the table all the costs all the benefits maybe the five six school is the best idea but no one no no one would know if it is or wasn't maybe it's better to expand the elementary schools maybe it's better to do k through six we didn't have the facts to have a community wide thoughtful conversation based on that let me add something to what georgia said here  princeton school system is not an isolated kingdom to itself it is part of princeton it's part of the town and when you think about the good you got to do with the children the good education that we have and everything you have to stop thinking about can this town afford or less i'll give you an example in the last seventy years the taxes in this town when our taxes in this style are divided into three areas taxes went up almost twenty five percent the town taxes itself when a two percent two point four percent tremendous difference that town found ways of running this town doing the consolidation with practically not increasing their take of the tax the benson school system found that out leaving the found because they can't afford the taxes and when i saw the numbers that the school came up with it was clear to me that this court actions in the next few about it and we heard there's going to be another one and we were astounded to hear week after week after week from people we've known for thirty forty years whose kids had attended the public schools with our kids that they were selling their houses and leaving town because they they be done immediately to give us some relief just for example if we had two sittings in the cafeteria in the high school would that give more of an opportunity for the kids to find seats and have good eating so you're telling me that the cafeteria is so crowded that no one can find places to sit well do if there are different opinions as to what how this is evolved but basically the kids are eating in the hallways because they enjoy being with their friends and so they're finding a little place in the hallway and actually sitting on the floor and so that's not an ideal thing to do and we need to configure the cafeteria so the kids want to be in the cafeteria with little eating islands you know noodles and salads and that sort of thing but also we want to make sure there is enough room and by having two sittings that will get a lot of expansion space and also if we have a little portable cafe that can be put into the hallways so the kids can have a little refreshment during the day well coffee a little pepsi or something that's an the possibility and there are many other possibilities that are really low in a similar way when we went to a tour of a high school few weeks ago we saw that the information technology office of the public schools occupies three classrooms with the space on the lower level of p h s and at the same time we heard how overcrowded p h s is well several months earlier when we had a meeting with members of the board of the valley road school we took a tour through every square inch of the valley road building it's clear that there's a lot of underutilized or just plain on you space why couldn't the i t department move out of three classrooms with a space of p h s over the valley road and free up three new classrooms for these students so you saying rethink what you have instead of suddenly rebuilt building everything new rethink what you have and see what we mean what work resources are finite it's not you know we will eyes that you have to spend money your you have to deal with growth but you also have to think outside the box you have to think clearly you have to figure out how to make the best how to accomplish the most with the resources that you have imo eg another financial example i'm all for the twenty seven million dollar how are we going to pay for that and there was a question between having a bond issue for twenty or thirty years if you issue a ban for thirty years you'll pay less upfront but you pay double in round numbers that prison public is going to pay six million dollars less on a twenty year bond then on the attorney a bond without changing any of the project any of the at the high school five hundred students replied to the survey and one of the things they wanted was smaller classrooms interest so you could take a larger classrooms and you could break some of them down to create more seminar type space right so the students are very knowledgeable and need to be conferred i think there another group that needs to be confirmed i was told by someone on the board that they're going to try and do more seminar type education teaching in then they've done in the past and that sounds quite good well you know it's a saga that goes on and on and on it's not going to be ended easily but the fact that you commit yourself and participate is wonderful we need to hear from you we need to know the thoughts that you shared with us today and we don't know how the story is going to and it may never end you know it may go on and changing go on and change as time goes on i did ask someone on the board why was there a population increase in the students they said that older people were retiring and moving away and that younger people are moving in with children that's what's filling up the schools so even that question has to be answered i'm going to say that we're coming participating in your own world in your own society caring about people and caring about the generations if we have more of this if we have this we will certainly continue to have a democratic world and that is something that we certainly want to do and want to have one last word word big out of the box public participation create the future for our children can you ask for anything more thank you so much for coming to backstory with joan go