moment i want to talk to you about the assassination of president kennedy certainly one of the most famous crimes in american history and what i want to do today is to illustrate aspects  assassination part of a controversy because ever since it happened on november twenty second one nine hundred sixty three there has been a tremendous amount of disagreement among researchers about whether or not the kennedy assassination resulted from the work of a lone assassin as the warren commission claimed or that of a conspiracy as most researchers who have studied this subject claim and the best way to do that i think is to illustrate some of the aspects of the assassination with a series of photos and i think that any reasonable person would conclude that the evidence overwhelmingly proves that there was a conspiracy now there is another side to the story and in my book the j f k assassination debates i do bring out the other side of the story as well those who believe that the oswald did it all by itself but in fact i don't agree with that than most researchers don't do not agree with that so let's begin by taking a look at what happened president kennedy was riding in the motorcade and downtown dallas texas the motorcade had just gone through the main part of downtown dallas had turned from main street made a right hand turn onto used in street traveled one block and then turned left made a sharp left turn onto elm street and what you see here on this first photograph is the motorcade the kennedy limousine is the first vehicle directly behind it is a secret service car the third car the white the a dark colored car is the car for vice president lyndon johnson and behind it the white car is that for the secret service followup one of the most interesting aspects of this case a believe is the fact that even after the first shot was fired and this photograph was taken after the first shot was fired the secret service riding in kennedy's limousine did not react the driver of the limousine actually slowed down after the first shot and the secret service agent sitting in the right front seat and use the a clear shot of him later on did nothing throughout the shooting sequence by way of contrast vice president lyndon johnson  his car the secret service agent said in the right front seat immediately after the first shot jumped into the back seat not johnson to the floor and covered him with his body why the lack of reaction by kennedy's secret service agents and the response by johnson has never been established that next picture here is a photograph of the front entrance to the texas school book depository building located to the right rear of where the limousine was at the time of the shooting this is the entrance way that according to the warren commission lee harvey oswald the accused assassin walked out onto the front sidewalk three minutes after the shooting and then oswald walked down to your right seven blocks down elm street and caught a bus ok next photograph here is a photograph showing a railroad yard and to the upper left a part of a parking lot this is located behind an area known as the grassy knoll which was located to the right front of where the limousine was located at the time of the shooting progress you know is the source of many people who myself included who believe that at least one of the shots came from there one minute after the shots were a dallas police officer like many other people ran up to it in the direction of the grassy knoll he climbed over a wooden fence and saw a man trying to get into a parking lot the man into one of the cars in the parking lot the man got into the car he the secret service i mean the police officer stopped him the man pulled out secret service identification and then he drove off we know he was not a real secret service agent all genuine secret service agents remain with the motorcade on their race to parkland hospital in dallas so somebody was impersonating the secret service agent on the parking lot behind the grassy knoll a minute after the shooting ok here is the front entrance to parkland hospital emergency room area ok next photograph here is the first of several slides ob going to show you to illustrate the almost unbelievable lack of care taken dealing with criminal evidence in this case we have a case here w president of the united states john f kennedy and the governor of texas john connally were shot if anything great care should have been taken to preserve evidence but in clothing out of the emergency room entrance governor connally's clothing were taken to his house given to mrs connally she waited a couple of months nobody did anything so she sent it to a dry cleaners and examined ok next slide another scene outside the emergency room entrance to parkland hospital ok here's another example of the lack of proper police procedures in a criminal case everybody has seen c s i law and order and other programs of that you know the very first thing that happens in a criminal case when the police  saying what do they do they seal off the scene of the crime what the yellow crime scene tape at no time was dealey plaza ever see although off here a photograph taken fifteen minutes after the shooting you see traffic proceed on elm streets as if nothing had happened spectators wandering in and out of the lip plaza without being questioned by the authorities no serious search was made of evidence to find evidence in dealey plaza the very next day after the assassination an eighteen year old college student found a piece of president kennedy's skull in the median on the other side of elm street no search had been made it ok the next photograph here if you could raise that justice tiny bit i don't know if we can but anyway go back that's ok we can see it this photograph was taken about fifteen seconds after the assassination it's a blowup of a photograph of the texas schoolbook depository building taken by one of the photographers in the back of the press motorcades he heard shots and was simply shooting scenes of dealey plaza and this is a blow up the half open window on the upper right is the window the sixth floor southeast corner went to one dollar from which the warren commission claims lee harvey oswald fired all the shots yet directly beneath the sixth floor window you see two men looking out of the fifth floor window and clearly and obviously neither man is reacting as if any shots had been fired from that from directly above their heads ok next photograph here is a view of the inside of the texas school book depository sixth floor the whole sixth floor was one big room it was a storage room where house type facility where boxes of school textbooks were logged that ok next photograph here's another the bottom photograph shows a nother view of the sixth floor of the book depository building you can see all the stacks of cartons of school textbooks these are elementary school mathematics reading and so forth textbooks for schools the upper photograph shows the view from the sixth floor window of the book depository building that an assassin side lee harvey oswald or anyone else would have had of elm street ok next photograph here is a photograph leaves of a live oak tree from the sixth floor and the assassin who wanted to fire a shot would have had to wait until the vehicle had moved from behind the leaves of the live oak tree because nobody would seriously shoot at this particular point because you simply can't see there are two f b i agents sitting and there's be a close simulating kennedy's and connally's positions ok here we have an interesting couple of slides both of them taken directly from the warren commission's own evidence the upper photograph shows the view from the sixth floor window of the i reenactment vehicle in the white convertible when it was on houston street heading towards the book depository building the bottom photograph taken through the nobody else involved the other gunman would obviously have fired now because there's a point blank shot right between the ears of kennedy why would a lone assassin wait for this limousine to turn the corner to make a sharp left hand turn then drive past the live oak tree that we just saw and then go from by pass the live oak tree and then have a shot only of the top part of kennedy's back and the back of his head when it has he would have a perfect shot right here right between the eyes this question has never been answered ok another example of the lack of handling of evidence outside the emergency room entrance to parkland hospital in dallas where kennedy and connally were taken you can see for yourself another failure of to follow proper police procedure and why would they not photograph them in place if indeed fragments were found but it's very interesting to no after the shooting the second window from the top on the right is the window from which allegedly fired the shots if you recall the previous photograph i show look at this photograph you can see how the boxes of school textbooks have actually been rearranged differently from those that were in the previous photograph somebody moved boxes around and the minute the two minute time period after the shooting and it could not have been lee harvey oswald because alice walt was elsewhere at the time and here's a very interesting point one minute and thirty seconds after the shooting two people a dallas police officer and the superintendent of the book depository building saw lee harvey oswald in a second floor lunchroom standing in front of a coke machine so if you believe the lone assassin thesis then oust walt must have fired the shots walked all the way across the sixth floor of the book depository building from the southeast corner to the northwest corner remember it covers the whole floor of the building gone down four flights of stairs going into a lunch room took a nickel lot of his pocket yes coke sconce the nickel the nine hundred sixty three put it in the coke machine got a coke out and was drinking a coke before the officer and the his boss saw him there it's an odd walt according to both of them was not out of breath it was not an educated or nervous or anything but a man who was just killed the president of the united states and wounded t clearly herr a police officer standing next to the window a normal sized man could not possibly have fired through from that window without shooting through glass because the window was open only fifteen inches from the ledge which goes all the way down to the floor that it wasn't even the knee height and therefore that's what those who wasn't wearing his quizes at the time could not possibly have been accurate ok next photo immediately after the shooting witnesses in dealey plaza began running in the direction of the grassy no which was b to the right front of where the limousine was at the time and it's to your upper left looking at this photograph figure one of people who run towards the same shooting i don't know but nevertheless it happens frequently ok next slide once again another view of traffic on elm street fifteen to twenty minutes after the shooting people milling about walking around people wandering in and out of dealey plaza nobody is stopped by the authorities of the crime is not sealed off it's just almost non boggling to think about the lack of just fundamental police procedure here but nevertheless it did happen ok next photograph caliber in american terminology it's a bolt action rifle meaning you have to cock the bolt of the rifle fire a shot and then cut the boat again before you fire another shot ok filmed the motorcade focusing of course on the kennedy limousine here kennedy is simply smiling and waving to the crowds nothing has happened to it the limousine proceed forward next photograph it continues to proceed forward next photograph until it disappears behind a string and then reappears behind the streets  one second and action all time ok next photograph now we can see president kennedy appear sometime during that one second hit that the limousine was behind in the streets kennedy was hit by the first shot kennedy's hands are moving up towards his face he begins when seen in pain jacqueline kennedy senator kennedy's left starts to look over towards him because she has turned the ok next a blow up of the same slide that we just saw kennedy has obviously been hit he's hunch far and his hands are going up towards his face hand and yet a fundamental part of the warren commission's thesis is that at this stage of the motorcade conley has been hit by the same bullet that's going through kennedy according to the warren commission of all foreigners shot that bullet went through kennedy's neck exit took from his throat then that same bullets went on to strike conley in the back of the chest area and yet without the single bullet theory of the warren commission the whole lone assassin theory collapses like a house or cards because oz walt anybody else could not possibly have gotten off two separate shots struck kennedy and then struck connally in the time limitations of the zapruder film because we're only talking about a second and a half in time and you can't fire two shots from oswald's rifle even without aiming in less than two and a quarter seconds ok now we move ahead governor connally now begins to his hair and his cheek next slide one eighteenth of a second later connally's right shoulder has slumped sharply downward his cheeks fill up with air caused by the passage of the bullet through the ri long collapse in the lung and forcing air up into his mouth and his hair flies up on his head here's where connally is struck a minute a second and a half after kennedy was thirty two separate assassins fire two separate bullets from the rear ok next now just before he is struck in the head president kennedy is leaning slightly backward and to the left jacqueline kennedy is reaching over almost to grab him and pull him down into her lap ok next slide now kennedy is hit in the right temple area an explosion or curs ok go through the next few slides rather quickly you can see how fast he goes these are one eighteenth of a second in duration now he bounces off the left through the backseat and bounces forwards you can see the enormous gaping hole in the right front area of kennedy's head most experts believe that a an explosive bullet such as a dum dum bullet was fired from the grassy knoll area from the right  against the right front side of kennedy said it ok the next lot of the shirt kennedy had when he was struck by a bullet wound of entrance a bullet hole clearly is in the back of the shirt the warren commission says that kennedy was struck in the back of the neck yet the evidence of the bullet holes in the shirt and a corresponding hole in his suit jacket  this contention and autopsy photograph of kennedy's back this is actually reversed if you picture this reversed the bullet moment is in the right side of the back corresponding to where the bullet hole the warren commission says it was in the back of the neck but you look at the back of the neck you see no bullet though the bullet hole is in the back of kennedy and since kennedy was seated in the normal position in the limousine he wasn't clenched up like the photograph the autopsy photographs shows kennedy was struck in the back and that bullet could not have accepted from the right from the front of the throat as the war around the margins of the moment ok next here is the bullet that the warren commission claims cause the damage in kennedy and connally the warren commission claims that this single bullet went through kennedy struck conly shattering his fifth rib and then caused a come you know that fracture of the radius and emerged totally intact without a scratch on it it's just simply not possible ballistics tests done with lee harvey oswald's own rifle which and which bullets were fired into goats human cadavers rest and other substances clearly show that as always happens when bullet strike hard substances they are flattened mushrooms they're not intact as this bullet is ok next photograph another view of the same bullet showing you can see all the lands and grooves of the bullet ok next photograph a computer enhanced x three of kennedy's skull showing the large degree of damage done to the scope on the right front side of the skull you can see how the bones have been shattered all the way to the back of the head and these little white suspects you scattered throughout the photograph of the x ray here or pieces of bone or bullet indicating that the bullet that struck kennedy fragment ties to which is not the kind of ammunition  supposed to be used ok next slide here as a x ray taken from the front showing the same thing except that you can see it from a different perspective but they are a large area of the ri fronts portion of the skull was shattered to pieces you can see in the different planes of the school of the skull the different little white specks of bone and bullet fragment a massive explosion are current on kennedy ammunition simply does not close the front of the room you need other kind of ammunition to do that ok next photograph a photograph actually this is a drawing made from a photograph showing the back of kennedy's head some warren commission defenders claim that that hole you see near the very top of the back of the head the at the back of the hairline there near the colic is a bullet wound of entrance and if you look over to the right front you can see a large flap of scalp hanging actually it looks over and front of the right here next photograph a autopsy photograph of kennedy lying on the table at the morgue showing matted brain matter in the top of in the hair next photograph another view this is a photograph here showing kennedy's head autopsy pathologist is raising the head up with his hand into the air instead of proper autopsy photographs being made the whole post mortem on kennedy was done and then very incompetent matter no experienced professional forensic pathologist was present in it was all done in secrecy and the things the naval hospital outside of washington ok next photograph another photograph showing the top of kennedy's head next photograph the right side of kennedy said photo autopsy photographs and x rays conflict with each other ok next slide here you can see taken from the top look below kennedy's adam's apple in the neck area you see a very large gaping hole that the warren commission claims is a bullet hole of exit from the bullet that entered the back of the neck in fact when kennedy was brought into the e r at parkland hospital in dallas kennedy had a tiny little puncture wound in the front of the throat just below the adam apple the wound according to the dallas doctors and nurses who treated him was four by six or three by five millimeters in size one fifth by one eighth of an inch in other words is cut through just wide enough to insert the endotracheal tubes into the breathing apparatus of the body of course this looks like a meat grinder went through because by the time is made to look like a bullet wound of exit when in fact it's not ok next slide here's lee harvey oswald the accused assassin of president kennedy o wald's rifle was found on the sixth floor of the depository building several fingerprints of oz wald's were found on the nineteen book cartons found near the sixth floor southeast corner window told worked in the book depository so it's fingerprints there of course me no more than yours and my fingerprints do in this classroom and i might add that while three prints of oz walls were found twenty four prints of dallas police officers were found on the same boxes give you another idea of the handling of evidence in this case as wald was arrested and then movie theater at approximately one fifteen i mean one forty five p m a dallas police officer j d tippit had been killed and in a residential area of dallas four miles from dealey plaza oz wal was arrested in a movie theater and taken to dallas police headquarters where he was originally charged with shooting the police officer but later he was charged with killing kennedy as well oz wald was not given the legal rights that people accused of committing crimes are ordinarily entitled to such as having an attorney present at all times and as you can see he was forced to answer reporters questions ok next slide once again hours walled in custody a dallas police headquarters the evening of the assassination two days after the assassination before a nationwide audience on live television as lee harvey oswald was being led out of police headquarters into the basement parking garage a man named jack ruby rushed out of a crowd of police officers and journalist and fired one shot into oswald's abdomen the bullet penetrated through several internal organs causing massive internal hemorrhaging walter was rushed to parkland hospital where emergency surgery was performed on him by many of the same dark doctors who treated kennedy by the way but the same result as well died during surgery jack ruby had a long history of ties to organized crime but the warren commission concluded that ruby's action was that of an of impulse in other words the official explanation is that we have two lone gunman in this case oz walt killed kennedy wounded calmly and then killed the dallas police officer plus ruby killed oswald neither one of them was put up to their acts by anybody else there was no conspiracy of any kind is the official version ok one of the few pieces of evidence that was handled carefully in this case was a fried chicken lunch found on the sixth floor of the book depository one of the african american men who worked on the fifth floor and you saw his picture in the slide i show was eating a fried chicken lunch on the sixth floor and after he finished he simply threw his chicken bones and wax paper and paper bag and dr pepper bottle on the floor there he got up and left and by the way he was no more than fifteen feet from where i was baldwin supposedly awaiting kennedy and said he saw and heard no one and it turns out that this evidence was meaningless because it had nothing to do with the assassination two people saw oswald with a paper bag in his hand ok next door and both of the what the morning of the assassination both of the witnesses said that the paper bag oswald carried was a normal size brown paper bag like you would get from a supermarket or other department store whatever approximately two feet long give or take an inch or two the warren commission claims that this is the bag that god's law carried into the book depository the morning of the assassination a paper bag more than three feet long quite obvious it's hard to forget because it's version carried the rifle into the building in that bag on the morning of the assassination now to wrap up there's a tremendous amount of controversy about the kennedy assassination one of the questions that's intrigued me all of these years as a historian is that if indeed there word no oswald did it all by himself if there was nothing to hide then why was there this massive cover up of evidence in the case in the kennedy assassination case there has been and still continues to this day a cover up of evidence in one nine hundred ninety three as a result of popular reaction to the oliver stone movie j f k president clinton to appointed a an assassination records review board to release documents on the kennedy assassination still withheld by the government and more than four million pages of documents that had been classified were released four million pages of documents not to mention films photographs and other pieces of evidence in this case and once again i would go back to that quote fundamental question why cover it up ok we have time left for a question and answer session so i'd like some volunteers to ask questions i know you must have some questions and if you would go to the microphone who's got a question ok go was being unfair of course obviously the overwhelming majority of members of the dallas police force and for that matter other agencies government agencies f b i secret service cia you name it or honest ordinary wall patriotic american citizens had nothing to do with any kind of cover up why the neglect of fundamental police procedures like not even sealing off the scene of the crime i don't know but it didn't happen ok and it would as well would he have volunteered to do this or was he chosen by someone how did he end up being the fall guy or was he set up well i don't know is the answer that i have to give you to this question because i was walled could have fired a shot of course oswell could have fired a shot he could have been part of a conspiracy or he could have been as he himself told the press the evening of the assassination i'm a patsy a scapegoat set up to take the blame of the real assassins got a water kennedy kennedy assassination has never been explain what i think happened is that oswald was a scapegoat that he really didn't have anything to do with that but with his background oz while was a defector to the soviet union he had connections to c a related activities dealing with anti castro activities and the like he became the perfect fall guy to take the blame while the real people who killed kennedy got away with it ok myself carlos marcello as played in the j f k assassination well i think there's certainly a possibility carlos marcello the mafia boss in louisiana and santos traffic mafia boss in florida are the two main organized crime suspects in the kennedy assassination marcello specifically because dallas fell within marcello's empire texas was part of his organized crime syndicate that he would have had to give permission before kennedy was killed if indeed it was an organized crime hit on kennedy jack ruby worked for people who were very close to carlos marcello in fact ruby made frequent trips to new orleans where he met with many of the proprietors of strip joints and other establishment on bourbon street and the like and was closely connected to and indeed made more than three dozen telephone calls to organized crime figures in the new orleans area in the three month period before the kennedy assassination on his deathbed santos trafficante the florida mafia boss told a close associate of his that i'm going to pretty up the language here that carlos messed up he should have killed bobby but instead he killed giovanni the italian of course for joel and coming from the lips of one of the most fearsome mafia bosses in the history of organized crime santos trafficante that has to be given some credit credibility then of course jack ruby killing walt this has all the hallmarks of an organized crime hit as well to silence them to prevent a trial from taking place and i have two questions because connally ever interviewed by the warren commission in what did he say governor connally was indeed interviewed by the warren commission governor connally insisted that he was struck by a separate shot than the one that struck president kennedy connally said and what he says is verified by the zapruder film that he heard the first shot fired and he started to turn around to look at kennedy seated directly behind him and he didn't see anything inside is going to turn the other way to see kennedy but when he started to turn back that's when the second shot hit him he was absolutely positive that the second shot struck him and only him and the first shot struck kennedy and connally had experience as a hunter he knew the sounds of gunfire he said he never heard the second shot because of course bullets move faster than the speed of sound and so the impact of the shot on him so connally's testimony is strong evidence of itself against the single bullet theory and the you mentioned officer tippit who was killed is there any connection with that with the assassination and do you in fact believe that even had anything to do with that it's impossible to say for sure but odds wald was at the scene of the tippit killing whether he killed tippit or not depends on a lot of factors that i didn't have time to go into but basically several witnesses claim to have seen lee harvey oswald shoot tippit although there were several other witnesses who saw more than one person at the scene of the typical in firing shots and so you have two different versions here bullets from tippets body removed from officer tippets body were to be mutilated to match any of the bullets to match arms wald's thirty eight caliber revolver that he had with him when he revolver now whether somebody planted them or not there's no way of knowing walt supposedly was walking down a sidewalk in a quiet residential area a dallas police officer tippit stopped him even though as well was doing nothing but walking on the sidewalk and called him over to his car got off then got out of his car and oswald pulled out his gun and shot him dead and then ran off but there's a lot of controversy about the tippit killing i'm certainly willing to say that odds wall may very well have killed tippit but it's not definite really did not make much sense knowing the facts that we do know and it's understandable i mean her husband's head was blown off practically in her own lap and she was in a state of shock and mediately after the fatal head shot jacqueline kennedy actually crawled out on to the trunk of the limousine and almost fell off had it not been for a secret service agent from the follow up call ran and got on to the truck and pulled her back into the back seat of the limousine so she didn't really know what she said didn't really has no impact at all on this you mention the secret service agent that didn't do anything whenever kennedy was shot was it ever insinuated or mention that maybe he had something to do with it maybe it was paid off or anything i know not know it i don't i don't want to insinuate that of like the one who jumped into the back seat of johnson's car and covered him with his body in the secret service agent to protect and president reagan after he was shot once jumped in front of reagan and took the second bullet but thankfully far it and so forth but no real investigation was made into the neglect by either him or the driver of the limousine like i said who slowed down after the first shot was fired instead of hundred print on those boxes that didn't belong into any known individual and was not on the f b i s massive file bankruptcy or ins and some somebody who had no business touching any of those boxes did touch it now who knows who it was though there are strange questions about these fingerprints also want to talk about the paper bag too i wouldn't say they saw oswald holding a paper bag not you can picture a yard stick which is the length of that paper bag there and it's impossible to hold one and cuffed under your hand in the other under your armpit like that without some of it would have to stick up over your shoulder and it simply was not that way and also can you tell us what the involvement of david ferrie and clay shaw had into the with the as well you know david ferrie david ferrie and clay garrison investigated the assassination and concluded there was a conspiracy at the new orleans and that david ferrie a former eastern airlines pilot and a rather strange character clay shaw a retired prominent member of the new orleans business and civic community were involved in a conspiracy with lee harvey oswald a conspiracy to assassinate kennedy and on the very day that investigators from garrison's office went to faeries apartment in new orleans to arrest him he was found dead in bed one of many mysterious that's in this case that had never been confirmed by anybody and clay shaw was eventually tried for conspiracy to murder john kennedy in one nine hundred sixty nine but he was acquitted unanimously acquitted by the jury and i think quite rightly because garrison simply did not produce the evidence to convict show ok calmly intended for kennedy and he got in the way when he was turning around to look at it i think that whoever far certainly intended to hit kennedy but struck conley instead because after the first shot that you saw kennedy move like that with his hands going up towards us that i think that the gunman simply missed i mean it's conceivable of course since we don't know what was in the minds of these people that one of them intended to kill connally as well but  don't think so i think it's reasonable to say that kennedy was  the medical records as well as testimony from various witnesses and other people who may or may not have been involved how much of that was released and do you think they ones that weren't released do you think at any given time that they will be have like these autopsy photographs i showed you pride a perfect example had it not been for the fact that a secret service agent made a copy of the autopsy photographs for himself and then sold them to a researcher in one nine hundred eighty two we wouldn't have access to that i mean even to this day because the originals are still being suppressed they belong to the kennedy family by the way not to the government and the kennedy family won't let anybody except the few select individuals who look at the originals and why the kennedy family has custody of them i don't know because they don't have custody four of the robert kennedy autopsy photographs in california but anyway other medical records were suppressed as well including x rays tissues slides and various other things many of them have totally disappeared off the face of this earth and i don't think we'll ever find out i don't think anything of substance is going to be released anytime at least in our lifetime he would said before in hundred three for a million pages of information had been released to the public was there any part of that information in the four million pages that we didn't already know from the warren commission there was a lot of information about activities involving c i a mafia assassination plots against fidel castro that was already known but more details have come out there was more information about lee harvey oswald's two and a half years he stayed in the soviet union our information dealing with organized crime no smoking gun material to say hey this is the key to the kennedy assassination we can put an end to it and say this is what exactly what happens like i tell my students in my j f k assassination class we don't know who killed john kennedy and i don't think we'll ever know the whole truth about it but i think most of these documents do help to reinforce the conspiracy theory curtis she mentioned that the warren commission found that jack ruby acted on impulse yes killing harvey oswald is there any evidence to the contrary yes there's a lot of evidence to the contrary ruby friends in the dallas police force and was at a press conference for a while but he was so far back with so many reporters and microphones and cameras in front of him that he didn't have a real opportunity to sh ruby appeared at dallas police headquarters several times bringing sandwiches and drinks to dallas cops many of whom knew him personally so i think that there was a very definite stalking there was waldron finally he got his real opportunity to kill him on that sunday morning after the assassination but it was not an impulsive action you also mentioned that he may have had ties to organized crime do we know which family might have had ties to the carlos marcello with the overall boss of the family in dallas a man named joseph chavanel was the head of the dallas organized crime family and there was a man named joseph came p c who was his underboss so to speak ruby operated a couple of bars and strip joints in dallas a lot of the dallas cops went there for women booze and what have you ruby did everything from fixing parking tickets and other things of that kind and he was not a big man in organized crime in other words he didn't have a family and so he was a perfect individual to use to kill oswald because you couldn't trace him directly to marcello or any other major organized crime boss even though he had links to that and i think we're it's ten thirty