whatnot so guys who knew how to shoot crawl out of the sky what five seconds and we can pick up where we left off what i would like you to do is to tell me where do you think it is that we left what was the point what point had we come to would ironclad clarity let the weekend take let the bank let's go to some new issues oh ok how about on a you know i nother topic i learned recently i curated a topic recently on dialogue the art of thinking together the idea is that when you're thinking alone even when you're with somebody but you're thinking alone everything comes out of your memory your convictions your beliefs your assumptions but thinking together might be a way of dialoguing  people are also good people go crazy in situations and things like that so there's a book by william isaacs i don't think it's a great book but he has a lot of really interesting ideas and one of his ideas is that dialogue is sort of the better form of conversation then discussion or debate with with dialogue you get to thinking together where new possibilities are created new meanings and with discussion the participants may say they may still have opinions and convictions but they're open open that they may might be wrong that it's not final and that would be a good thing for there to be in the world you know so and then the debate as you know we don't like debate debate is where you try to suppress the other's taking that your ideas may not be final that there may be more to it and then we can explore that together or in a group as a group and dialogue is where you don't even have sides where you try to preserve the center of conversation and as a as an integrity as a whole maybe as a curated topic maybe as whatever comes to  us and and then the idea of the promise is i don't i don't think you can do a scientific experiment to prove this but the moment william isaacs proposes as a as an ideal that if we coleman he's a jazz and jazz guys want to be in touch with one another you know that sort of thing and have it work well you know that's a that's a thing i don't think it's a big deal but it's something we're talking about i guess and some people are more given to that than others and so it's a big subject really dig up and is it something relevant to the human condition or getting to solving on human condition well if we if we are social creatures if that's an important component of who we are now for we can all go naked in the woods and do our our own thinking and come back into civilization and four relatively equal coorg and eyes or ears and i'm trying to imagine why and can we do it's a it's a group that gets together every saturday and sunday usually in the morning on to explore some saw object and so forum for the exploration of ideas ok good i am and we have we use public spaces so we don't like to have big groups but a small groups roughly  twelve people and participatory inclusive of conversations exploring a subject and i'm trying to imagine how they can be more effective and more  we need to get every citizen coordinated as a comprehensive this well that doesn't have ok didn't sound to me like a comprehensive it sounds to me like a group think well in a lot of that going on at every board meeting in every corporation there's a lot of that kind of cooperation going on in everything i think a comprehensive is does something else again and it's also whether what you're talking about are you talking about an agreed assumption you can put out certain agreements that  exploring it's very important for everybody to contribute their thoughts and ideas well i don't want to think it's group think and that's fine i think it's going to really well written play certain in the corporate world and grow in the world as the is very advantaged ages i don't think is necessarily advantageous in terms of some things that are more important groupthink implies a convergence to an idea and one of the things we're very careful about is leaving everyone in cognitive dissonance not coming to conclusions i like spontaneity i don't particularly like the idea of having some formula that you're all going to fit into it sounds again to me there's different kinds of people in the world you know i don't like group thing i don't like that kind of a thing myself other people do but what about lengthening in groups instead of group no i like to think together in terms of i like people who are sort of go off the ranch sometimes and think differently and can think creatively and that's it's just different kinds of people i don't particularly like group thought but you were proposing in my way of seeing it well that being i like spontaneity i talk to people in the same way you do a spontaneous it comes up whatever comes up it whatever comes up it's but usually what comes up is what's in our memory  ayittey i like spontaneity and jazz but if it on one of his chat i like spontaneity in everything i do i like to meet people and talk like we're talking now i don't like to have a formula i don't like to have we're going to celebrate did it sounds like bureaucracy to me and that's what i don't particularly like i never did that i was just talking about at a time in the army and i never fit very well because they were telling you what to do understand yeah so you know i know you like autodidacts know what i like spontaneity well a lot of the guy down never know what i'm going to say when i open my mouth i don't like structure i don't like those things or i don't like he's using the word subjective differently from the weighing people do in ordinary discourse he uses subjective to mean that which is a path of  thing that you're experiencing like as a happening as something that happens to you it's it's the it's the word on your subjected to it like take gravity for example have you ever ever met any of the levitate at will no no you need an airplane or something to get away from gravity so that's subjugating that's subjugating in fact the way we think of so so that's the way bucky thinks of subjective i don't know he's a very complex i don't i can't say that i knew him well at all i met him a couple times but i don't know him well you had an hour long conversation with i goal some intentional experience like an experiment well yeah that yeah i guess that's a different thing you're trying to narrow things down to make that's narrowing down t to know anything you have to do an experiment to verify that it works which is sort of the art of doing experimentation getting nature into a corner seeing what's really going on i thought of alaska the holes i went to alaska to get in the wild mother nature and i went and i'll cut it short and everything but i went and i got there and you if you've been to fort thousand feet to get the one thousand you whose degree of temperature and i got up and there are no trees got above trees there were little patches of ice all over and i'm stupid i was stupid i was like nineteen or something like that and but it was terrible and i didn't know what to do because i was stuck i hadn't told him this stupid i hadn't told him but i was there and i just gone off it spontaneity maybe is not always a good thing i like spontaneity but  back and i had to go down and it was just hail and i cursed mother nature oh old hag mother nature you know i was singing the praises of mother nature a combination with her and everything like and i got down and all i wanted i got down and i did just make it i swear it's like a story it was really like something out of jack london or something and i got there and i finally i finally got to this camera guy i think i said what three days or something good a bit hours and hours and i'll read it and when i got out all i wanted to see was a man i want to see cement everywhere but that's not a good way to think you know because i was wrong but i don't know that any lesson in that at all but i don't try to get mother nature so it's that the paradox is what strikes me about it you have the love of nature going up yeah and then the realisation the nature a super volcano that could blow that that's a challenge no one's even working on you know could i introduce them here in that case about about i don't like group think because it just becomes all the same and everything there that for whatever it's worth i just there's different kinds of people in the world but on the climate change thing is i'm interested in is a very important thing and there's a lot of environmental issues that are interested and you can put a lot of blame on the capitalists who are running the world and getting on oil and just messing up the environment creating all these kind of things with temperature and that kind of thing you can get all involved in that and the thing as i read the record i'm i like to do things individually you know and i had read the record as i do i keep busy intellectually and everything and i'd read th thing and i had found jim hansen was the one who really early on brought about looking at this climate change thing no you got a lot of groupthink now people who love nature and all of that they tend to be that kind of people you know that is the man messing up the environment and that's causing it and it's too bad it's a groupthink thing is coming and everything but what he said and what i agree with the one question for whatever it's worth it is the odd thing i don't like the group things but anyway his thing was any still there he's still saying he was the original one early there was then a turn of the century brought it up nobody else was thinking about it but he brought it up and what he wanted to say was that the answer that really we could do in terms of addressing it seriously rather than getting into the group think about how wonderful nature is i don't think nature is so wonderful particularly i like civilization as it happened and everything and his thing was that the solution is we should use atomic energy to provide the electricity to the whole world that we have an overwhelming abundance in the trident submarines of the united states fleet in the bottom of the manic ocean we should take the energy to run the electric needs of the planet we could do it easily with a couple of those submarines down there we should take energy from the atomic process and use that to get the energy that's the solution to it nobody wants to hear that it grow think under the control of the united states government and they are new species lethal in their capability to destroy the planet but we can't touch into to bring the electricity because we believe some sort of groupthink thing about mother nature have broader has a broader question the how much uranium two hundred and thirty eight is there on the planet i've seen reports we might only have a couple one hundred years of it you know if we bank our future on something that gets us through  hundred or two hundred years is that really a good idea well yeah you're want to get the readings of how much power there is that's the only thing in my way of thinking i worry which we were  ok but i'm talking about the electric problem right now and we were talking starting in the program last night we didn't everything we've been looking at and everything but if you were to take that you could make the you could produce far more electricity than ever be needed and what we're doing is we're putting it all down in a bottom of the ocean on which the marine that have the ability to kill it and we don't want to say that something so evil is that can be used for something good so you don't have to clutter up originally brought it up and take him seriously rather than a groupthink kind of way is what we're doing now buck might retire manolis but bucky thought that we shouldn't use nuclear well i don't i don't know exactly what surplus well that's that's that's that's intrinsic to the system that is in place and is thought to be what we have to have is there all sounds at the very basic of the economic the wonder when somebody else has to lose there's never enough there cannot ever be enough now what what stephanie kelton is proposing i don't know anything you know no it's a definite no no he's then an economist that doing a lot of debt that provides a surplus for you and me that the government goes into debt by buying our services or giving us handouts like corporate welfare or big corporate economy and so the way she describes it is when the government lends money ug to a company you know or it pays you for your services that's a government that t the government is through an act of congress can can produce as much debt as they want and the full employment act of ninety board the six with the major thing after the nd war and they have a problem because they don't  used to tinker in her garage henry ford he became the man who put the whole world on wheels and he put it down with the balls of fuels and all that kind and it brought all the automobiles and ways of getting around and that sort of thing and so you've got to have some way of being able to have those kind of things develop i quite don't quite remember what it is i had in mind but bringing that up it's it's how the economy works and yeah and i'm very interested in  used to have i mean let's go back to that we used to have giving and kings ruled and kings killed people and kings ruled and it was a bloody struggle from caesar on down but how is the money supply created where the money supply then i europe you know they continued using the roman money but there was no money so they did it all in in accounting you know that there were there weren't  that seems to be when the economy started going it was created by government debt as i understand it well that was part of it but it also created automobiles everybody got automobile and they could drive in they get an expanded life and everything like that and it was a it was progress and everything and they got a better standard of living out of that kind of a situation and it improves  but now it's just the same and what's happened now in the modern experience we're not we're not talking about history so much now the time we are in we're talking about so we tried to talk last time this time something different than just history do that and then what's happening is it's getting down to where the problem is to base those and all that kind of stuff you know it's getting now down to the point where the way in which things are being produced are being produced increasingly and exponentially even in a way that doesn't require slaves were also labor are the people who own all the ads that all the corporate assets the financing is all done away we're just builds more i'm forming all the left you know i have russian that that is the labor the crees the well in that was a nice thing rodeo did well because they had those people were so badly treated but that's that and that's what's happened and now it's displacing labor lower there is that there that there philosopher so where we're working and which is erve a good wage and all of that but it's being eliminated the need for having wage so they're going to buy an alternate way the need that you're saying the needs being a limited meaning that we have the ability to sustain most people are going to be out of the for you later on it is without people laborers to sing it's gotta be produced by machines and computers and advanced cybernetic but you don't need people by the wages that used to be served and still are in all reality for the way the world set up everybody is just practically a serf on the street were a few people own it all and then fight each other at a national level so buck said wealth was no how no how yet as well as material right so couldn't it be seen that we could create a service industry jobs like theat  have to be they have to be consumers of what can be produced by automation we need and then you do that they have to have they can't form capital in a way where it's only people who have passed savings that you can they're going to have to have somebody got past savings making investments going to pay for it so out of his future earnings not from past saving they've got it so they've got the advantage they always have so even from rome i mean even from venice in that so you're going to have an alternate way of producing of expanding capital ownership to the masses of the of the capital it was going to produce and they're going to have to do it in their own interest in the end you can they're going to have to have people with money to clear the market of the thing that all the machines without the people being needed to produced anything are able to buy the good life that has been now being able to be made available to us so if that's a problem a group well like it could still just a matter of these big behemoths people heading the corporation have all the assets they get all that well and then they fight national terms one with the other and all the bullshit going on with the middle east and all that kind of stuff are people who are like yeah i really like kenneth tanger and kenneth taylor argues that you're that human beings are moral oh my i forget his word moral mongar as moral creatures have to do but they've kept the getting of investment in a night a an enterprise it's going to pay for is so out of its future earnings that's the way people wasn't given millions of dollars to make my start with you by then wait a minute wait a minute maybe you're trying to tell me you're not of the manor born you have a bearing or somebody of a man last week that right now they tell me that there's a new report there's a new report out i haven't seen this ok but i understand that there's a new report that says the driverless cars don't work in the rain well maybe that could be and you could be if they don't work in the no machine learning is based on past experience so what they what they do is they they teach these cars by giving them the experience you time with driving yeah yeah yeah right and they using machine learning it's a statistical technique where you look at past data yeah and you know this is an object an obstacle you know this is a person self driving car killed the person not not too long ago so on how did that happen well that particular situation wasn't in the training did it pretty thing there's a fundamental problem with machine learning a there's a fundamental problem with machine learning and that is machine learning is only based on the past so you might you might be able to get it to you know every every burson in a business suit doesn't get hit yeah but the st time question is what is it what is the meaning intelligence what is intelligence how to we think we've got machine intelligence but we don't what we have is learning from  past learning that from a training set you know him well there in order to have intelligence you have to be able to imagine the not yet existing and then that yeah not only do you have to imagine the not yet exist takes you from machine learning cannot get to the not yet existing and it has no way to go from the not yet existing to making real the not yet existing board that of out of the future and they don't pay out of the future earnings at all you just go bust and you're broke that happens all the time and bought abbott lucado machine machine learning is driving by looking out the rearview mirror  algorithm that can tell you how to lay the track ahead of the train before we get there it's all rearview mirror yeah really driving into the future with the i've fixed firmly on the rearview mirror that's you may seen learning is not going to get us species in a gigantic jam session where everybody's got what they need or want to become truly able to do it is they want with access to the world store of human knowledge and all that sort of thing and everybody is involved in a great big giant yams and with with ideas about the design of the economic system but if we can't make it real it's just not yet existing that may or may not ever become real and that's a thought isn't it you know because i don't know how does  realizes the incredible unique situation humanity is at this time after ten thousand generations this is the defining generation it's on the planet we don't get thinking that way we think in terms of the national review the gross national product and the tax code and of the politics and all the rest of it because that's the way we've always thought give ourselves all a break and let's break out and have a liberation rather than a night of this generation is important because it's now and now is always the most important genesis that's ongoing yeah the today's solutions will be tomorrow's problems that you know we met we may solve the problem to survive today but it's just kicking the can down the street because th talking quite literally that's why i'm worried about the trident that's under the control of the united states military ok that's like caesar with his roman legions or something like that that th there's there's studies i don't know that we have been made very clear that they are and just just yesterday it was not they could never there was nothing anything like what could be the lethality for the whole species that was not possible until i had encountered god god bring it up but that's now the reality we can wipe out and stop evolution up this home annoyed line teen layers of interaction you need government you need private industry you need civil society and you need individuals all building trust and working together to try to i'm forgetting the name you good call a good common sense too is we didn't you know the politicians will come in they'll say government can solve all your problem you know what the end of the game will usually that doesn't work but then fifty to two thousand years to invent it now every day aging it is exciting you know jane but there's a lot that has to be done is a lot of questions to be addressed and everything and you do a great job with your situation down in philadelphia and i congratulate you and i'm really glad you've been able to share that with the manhattan audience and maybe wherever you reach out to right ok so i guess we have a minute or two left in him like that but we're almost coming to the any other of these these are great times and i like the way kenneth taylor puts an end to moral framing says yeah right your life is given to you as a prop problem and as a project right as a problem  design and design is the way to live your life and the way to help structure our civilization and i'm going to excess and to have the word designed linked with a man named buckminster fuller is a very very good idea for all of us including some of the youth coming along to pick up on his enormous contribution and well as their society at large don't you agree indeed we're going to get a listing the people that are in that coterie in everything because it's just an incredible time listen thank you so much is so good to talk to you know can you have pleasure to have this gentleman this guy from philly the man from philadelphia to know his story and thanks a lot and