welcome to beyond my crisis i'm your co host ron rosner and i'm giving casper we are here to bring families together who have been victimized by child protective services and here with us today is a federally admitted attorney vince davies he has over thirty years experience and has put together thousands of families and how he can reunite families is something that everyone needs to know what  practicality can be done vince thank you so much for being here we really need to know what is your story how did you arrive at doing such a heroic because my parents met in japan right after the korean war and about three years later they were involved in a bitter custody battle now well war two that just ended and it was going to be very difficult for a japanese woman who barely spoke english to win in the divorce court in the united states in the united states as a result of the court decision i didn't see my mother for another seventeen years i'm so sorry as a result of that i decided to dedicate my practice to helping people and parents who've lost their children wow that's huge if you if someone finds themselves being contacted usually it's very much out of the blue this is not slang you're prepared for mentally you psychologically what is the first thing someone should do if they're contacted by child protective services the first thing they should do is contact a lawyer specifically a child protective services defense lawyer so that they can know what they should do because c p s laws or unlike any laws in the american court system how is that so getting a regular like a divorce lawyer or some other lawyer is not going to serve that person very well you know they have to specifically get a child protective services attorney correct and then state by state they use different monikers like in new jersey maybe so how do you find one of these attorneys what do you do to find one that's thing is for referral services usually or google for example you could google c p s defense lawyer ok and that should come up with some of these laws state by state even though the titles change different counties different areas different states or these federal laws they're basically all the same was there all guided by fraud or federal regulations the department of health and human services ok so what would her attorney tell someone who had been called what's going to happen what why would how would that change their result well first thing that i do when i represent someone that has been contacted by joe protective services i told the client do not speak to the social worker by yourself you can't talk your way out of this you know and not talk your way out of it but once i'm telling the truth just is what sets you freedom is keeping your family safe that doesn't happen in most of the cases i would say no why is that the incentives monitary away for these government agencies is to take children out of your home and with you i'm so sorry could you please back up and explain you're trying to tell me and our viewing audience that the governmental workers are actually financially incentivized to remove children from their homes and away from their parents well not the workers themselves but the agencies they work for i don't understand how can that explain what do you mean by that please there's a sixty nine billion dollar child protective services budget from the federal government and the way the states in the counties earn money is by removing children from  i would estimate i read an article that approximately almost two children per day are killed while in child protective services custody in the united states in the united states how does that happen i why isn't this in the news i don't hear about this at all there are confidential cases by law so you know actually will not hear about one unless it's a family later suing the state or county agency because of a wrongful death of it so there's kind of like a gag order on any cases involving someone under eighteen years old yes is this ever successful for parents to who felt victimized perhaps it was an innocent situation to sue the state is that it successful concept it is it's very  successful in some states it's the state agency and in some states it's the county agency who's responsible and there are federal and state lawsuits all the time against these agencies and social workers so when i hear someone says call an attorney  i think people get a little bit of fear like wow that's going to be expensive what does that mean expensive like what is someone going to be paying to get someone to help them advocate good advocate you know would depend on the circumstances you know if it was a case against the county or the state and the social worker generally civil rights attorneys that specialize in that area charge a contingency fee so won't cost anyone anything they get a third or something around there of the whatever the proceeds are that's correct and that really helps families because i'm sure as soon as someone hears the word lawyer they immediately throw their hands up they're saying i can't afford a lawyer i guess i'm doomed to be this victim and who knows what can happen then further to the children or the parent but most are horton were saying today is don't do it on your own get an attorney and that perth my personal first hand experience i wish i met you before my personal calamity occurred and i would about an attorney and maybe things would have gone a lot smoother so i completely completely agree with what you're saying and i hope that other families really take that advice if they can't afford an attorney can they get a court appointed attorney with child family services yes in most states they can know this is holy and a court appointed attorney to represent them in the child protective services court room now not in suing the social worker in a separate case understood so this just for to help them with the laws if their kids are being taken by some emergent event yes give us an example of what is common will typically a social worker is not supposed to take your child away unless he or she has a court order a warrant or has a witness in exigent circumstance what do you mean by that exigent circumstance of life or death situation i think very specific house abilities know it's on a case by case basis but a lot of times social workers will take a child from you can claim that it wasn't that it was an accident circumstance when it was not can you have cameras throughout your house and that be a good idea usually you have them cameras that is for in case of burglary but if you do have them running and you can prove that there was no circumstances in order to have a child removed would that be helpful to you would be a streatley hope that could prevent such a tragedy right there she would have been more needed if you  perhaps going through a divorce and you could feel to melt to mulch a situation coming about well yes especially if your spouse was that type of person that might make false allegations against you every day i hear that story so any and any false allegation met with child protective services they have to investigate they are mandated to go to the home and check it out now if someone knocks on your door saying can we come in what do we say well my advice says unlike most of the face that most attorneys will give i say do not let the social worker in your home unless they have a warrant for a court order i've had a chance to just comply made the couldn't they say and the later on during the course of any proceedings that may arise from that that you were un could that be held against you it could and on a scale of one to ten that might be a five but if you let them in your home that's a ten so which do you want the five or the ten and since we're on familiar with what they can do and how they're trained where it's just a foreign situation we really have to protect ourselves first right but it's still america and everyone knows i think from the movies don't talk to the police without your lawyer present but wait on these so that's really important if they don't well they're not police though because if upon less police are not yet your door we know not to speak to turn a police officer with an authority but these are police officers right well this is worse than the police because police can only put you in jail social workers can take your children forever do they have the same rights as far as what they can you know it could they arrest you or anything further no social workers do not carry guns they do not carry badges they do have identification but they can't arrest you they can call the police on you and try to have you arrested but they themselves can't do that so the typical scenario is someone gets a call and social workers come and they say we're investigating on an incident that has occurred here and my response as the parent is i'm sorry i cannot discuss anything with you you have to speak to my attorney right and i would third party that what i told my client has to social worker that i have told you not to speak with them and we'd like to set up meaning as soon as possible where i will be present where we can work all of this out now can a an attorney that's a court appointed be that advocate that person can be that bigot but generally they won't be involved in the case at that point in time so we're talking about something that's happening before your first court date so i don't have an attorney can i say to them you're going to have to talk to my attorney and they're going to say who's your attorney i'll let you know can can you say i'll let you know if you don't have an attorney yes more importantly than just say look i'm not going to talk to you without my attorney will who's your attorney i don't know i'm going to find one within the next twenty four hours and i'll let you know so that's an acceptable to write so if you have child protective services knocking to another social worker you are legally allowed to say i will not let you in i will not speak with you without an attorney and that could be it they need to walk away correct now they could have a court order or a ward to inspect your home or to talk to your child and they usually will say something like well if you're not going to let me in i'm going to could go get a warrant and your response will be that will be fine because we want to do everything legal and then of course we contact  child protective services attorney such as yourself yes and what i love is that even though you're in one state you can actually work within any perimeters of any state you're in california a federal case of credible federal court  are federal laws were correct you know most of these cases when you're talking about a child being taken away or run by the state you know state cases and what i usually do is i put the person calling me from a different state in contact with a colleague who is in their state or i make arrangements to go to that state and represent that person there in that state you're allowed to pop on a plane and make sure gets taken care of personally that's within your printers and abilities to do s criminal court when you're accused of a crime they have to convict you with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that's a very high standard and i suppose a specific legal term beyond reasonable doubt yes and that's above fifty one percent oh it's more like ninety ninety five percent wow that's like a cell with family court well this is juvenile court family court is divorce ok you know in child custody and visitation juvenile court is social workers taking my child to locate juvenile during a court and in most states they use two standards of evidence a preponderance of evidence and clear and convincing evidence to initially take your child away from you though they only need a preponderance of evidence and how much is that i mean what does that mean more than the fifty percent higher than fifty fifty point zero one percent is a preponderance now people really had you have a reason to besides the fact that they should be taking this very seriously because the children otherwise might be taken away what is the alternative like when child protective services actually manages because someone didn't know before now to take a child out of the home what happens if you could shed a little bit allayed within the foster care system that they're then placed into they're they're supposed to be placed within a room with a relative and i think all states have that wall that relatives have to be investigated the problem is in my practice i see that children are given to row tubes freely and easily they're usually put into a foster care system and there's a big problem with that because foster parents not all of them but a lot of them do this as a business and there may not be that caring in that loving better with young child well what do you mean doing it as a business well i've seen as many as five in one home five in there getting a proxy fifteen hundred dollars a child fifteen hundred might be a little high even a thousand dollars that's five thousand dollars a month or a regular income as i said there are professional poster parent so there are do you have you found that there's many abuses in the situation because they're not doing it out of care for the children what i have i've seen that there have been a lot of problems i've been doing this thirty years i have seen foster care period who has caused the death of a child i've been involved in cases where foster parents are physically abused children i've been in cases were involved in cases where the foster parent has such molested the child and these are convictions that that prevailed some of them convictions some of them are these abuses anomalies are unfortunately there are frequent how what have you found i wouldn't say that they happen in every case but they happen to many times yes so should there be cameras in these well it could be for a few weeks a few months a couple of years it could be forever forever is not temporary because then of course they age out when they become a teen that's not forever oh well and what about the psychological trauma of the children how to as a parent what do we do to help our children get through something like this you know all i can say is counseling i'm not a mental health professional and that's not my expertise but i have clients right now who have gotten their children back after a few months and these children or substantially damaged emotionally i'm not sure what's happening in those post repair is that in those homes right you know what's happening to these children but it's not the best place instead of focusing our money on taking children out of homes we should focus on keeping them in matter and providing services to keep children safe so wanted children go through some psychologically they've just been ripped out of their parents and some of these parents might be normal everyday regular parents not even abusive homes and taking them out of and they're putting them into foster homes and she said a lot of abuse has occurred and do they also give these children accompanying psychological help or therapy just to transition away from parents i've never seen that happen they're supposed to give them hope and counseling i know that and we're supposed to provide that the problem is in a lot of cases i have a case right now where this child needs a lot of counseling in for some reason the social worker is dragging his feet i get the impression it's because of money the intense counseling that the county has to provide this trial so they're putting it on the mother's lap and telling her hey you take care of it so when a parent gets their children back hopefully they do there's a new cost burden that these parents are going to have with helping their child psychologically get back into shape and so the damage is done should a parent start documenting all the damage dates times people involved and should a  lawsuit and sue to claim for monetary cost to help these children the short answer to that is yes is it always yes or well it depends on the family you know bringing a lawsuit is a personal decision and a lot of cases it's going to be a family decision to basically we're suing the social worker or the agency correct the state and or the county so but the reason to sue is not because you're being up to  reason and the reality is when the saying is these children have been traumatized they possibly could have deal with p t s d and long standing psychological issues that you might need as a parent help to pay for absolutely true so now who would sue what the parents or on behalf of the child it could be both or either or is either stachel imitation there is generally for those to introduce one to two years and what kind of attorney do you have to find for that the civil rights attorney who sues social workers and he concedes you know a lot of a lot of attorneys that's a very specific kind of attorney yes civil rights attorney that only pretty much does cases with social workers and these agencies most of most  civil rights attorneys would take a case of when there was police brutality the problem is that when you have the social worker factor involved you have to know the laws and the procedures of the underlying c p s case in the child protective services courtroom and most civil rights attorneys don't know that so you want to get an attorney that does both areas of the law or who specializes in suing social class and with your experience doing these kind of suits how many of these cases do you feel are of merit although of the cases that i took today i feel that they are of merit you know a lot of people have reservations about sunni just generally people look down on something in our society but sometimes in order to protect your rights and to protect your children you have to sue to get compensation so that they'll be taken care of yes for our children we have to do that we have to be the advocates and sometimes it's a hard step to take right but aren't there additionally further ramifications to this family i mean what is the average length of time that it takes for a parent to regain custody after the children are removed well that varies from case to case we could get them back to you within a couple of days couple of weeks a couple of months sometimes a year two years recently i represented the grandmother and the child had been grandchild placed in her home because about twenty years ago a false c p s report was made against her it was in the records how do you expunge that it was very difficult so can these false records or allegations be expunged so they're not really someone's reputation expungement don't be the correct term but yes you can get them removed or get them set aside or get it so that the judge doesn't consider something that may or may not have happened twenty years ago and how do they know if there's even anything on the record since they are so sealed they're not sealed to the agencies to the child protective services agencies they're not see so you would subpoena that for discovery and see if there's anything there i would but in this particular case they told us we're not giving your client the child because of our geishas that were made against her twenty years ago so during this entire process regardless of how long it takes for you to fight to regain the child's custody with the parents or a good custody all for example the grandmother in this case but let's say it's the parents this could be very very destructive to this parent who's going through this trauma of regaining custody of their children what other tragedies  you actually have known about they could have stemmed for this i mean they can't work they're told to by these social workers to make sure they attend all the meetings make sure they're on time don't miss a single meeting or you might mess up the opportunity right there we're going to die their work is definitely going to be jeopardy how do they learn a living how do they work could they have a home or if occasions i've seen many cases where people have lost their jobs their homes their businesses because what the courts or the social workers want them to do so onerous they want them in parenting and counseling and drug testing and drug counseling maybe four or five days a week for two or three hours a day and that's in the middle of the day during the workday because they don't do it after hours because the social workers work hundred eighty three which the general civil rights statute in the country and part of that statute allows you to ask for punitive damages against the social worker and the counties and states could you please because damages are important because as you just mentioned people not just jeopardize their livelihoods their jobs but you have also mentioned they've lost their homes the family home is fighting to regain custody yes what are some examples of what these lawsuits have yielded there was a sort of a famous case and was angeles county where a colleague of mine tried about two or three months ago and i think he won over three million dollars it's typical when a social worker we can show that there is wrong doing ok can you just provide us with three easy tips as what can someone do in process of regaining their children if they've already lost i'm sure take this matter seriously oh other people don't take this seriously because these social workers don't have guns and badges it is serious they can take your child away from you and it could be for a long period of time if not forever number t don't talk to the social worker i know you think that you're going to be able to talk your way out of this you're not they're highly trained professionals and it is their job to prove a case against you number three at the initial stages of the case there's something called a team decision making meeting where they ask you to come and they gather evidence against you to use against you in court don't go to that meeting at least don't go without an attorney you're not required to go to that meeting so don't go thank you very much this is very much for joining us this is really crucial information there are many many people out there unfortunately in victimized who have lost children please follow events advice contact and he can help you in any state your children are worth that don't give up hope fight it is definitely worth it