and you want to talk about all of it and everything that's going on in an amazing time that we live in with all the problems with the economic system the world economics is a time for thinking about things in a broad pattern and in  the in the tents of forward change and hopefully hopefully yeah i anyway welcome very very much conversations a dear friend of conversations is our guest for this hour and that being d d psychology we've got him down in the realm of an anti anti establishment psychologist he's written monumentally if i may say so speaking from my own personal having read most augury thing he's written in the area of psychiatry or psychology and he's got a new drug draftees put together called we've got it up on the credits as lunching with lunatics with the subtitle ventur renegade psychologists ok ventures a renegade psychologist and let's just start with that if we could set you're a renegade psychologist what does it mean to be a renegade psychologists i have some idea of what it means to be a renegade economist but a renegade psychologist what's the dialectic there well st of all i guess for people who are not familiar with the field i should say that  renegade on the heretic i'm an apostate you see is boss statement probably because in the st place i don't believe that there's any such thing as mental illness and rather than with psychology you know thinking when jesus says it's harder for the rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven  political order under which we live now in which a small group of people have all the money and and the power and they're using it to destroy our mother earth and so the question jesus said the less sure we st martin luther king david oakes who was a leader in the mental patients liberation movement on the psychiatric survivors moment brought this to my attention an idea used by the guardians of the status quo including the my fellow psychologists and psychiatrists it's not real there is no such thing as mental illness it's a doctrine that used by the guardian status quo to lead people who are having spiritual crises into a state where they're easily controlled so that it's like they are trying to willingly or usually unwittingly prevent the birth of a new order a new civilization that really seeking to come into existence extremely important concept in fact i think you had a book one time who had the forward by tom assad written a book that was famously called the of mental illness where he was amazing reporting on you was an amazing person had great respect among the psychiatric community it seems to me oh no they hated him did you think so oh well i knew a lot of people i know a lot of different people i know a lot and i mean painting water means suppressing non conformists right and many of those people who are searching anyway so when someone like thomas zaz comes around and says there's no such thing as schizophrenia became a long historical process and it went through a transfer kind of displace the idea of witches and and in its stead there came the idea of this person or people certain people i believe people who are what i would say are in this spiritual vanguard even though they may be in a state of of confusion but they're having profound spirit spiritual experiences and of religion we could call it as an opiate in order to subdue the masses and to prevent any kind of ferment social ferment from taking taking place and this is always been the tried to show how once the church capitulate the little band of revolutionary followers of jesus who wanted to bring in the kingdom of heaven and we can bring about the kingdom of heaven particularly now i think well that's always been i kind of how to put it i got involved it was a mistake and i was i got a mistake in hindsight but i got involved in the mid nineties with the  you had the st mad pride oh yeah i think it's great it's called mad pride because it put that apple is on people and everything and everything in a way but i mean is that they shouldn't be they should those people should band together and be proud of their uniqueness of you i mean here's why i believe eighty seven you will find those many who are willing and able to believe who are inclined to believe that we can realize the kingdom of heaven on earth good idea i think don't you know some of them yes we can realize the society's going on i think it's very widespread in the population now is the old economy begin to come on ravelled in the minds of many maybe heading for a great depression and all that kind of this is the time and mad in that sense and then mad in the sense that th used against the crazy but the crazies are where their property visions are a reside if you understand what i'm saying i think yeah yeah yeah double entendre i think it was never used to him by the man brought people to employ anger lunatics yes right mad people yeah and the mad people shall lead us perhaps yeah yeah and the visionaries i mean james joyce and all your great creative people and so forth they've been called by this truer than normal society as beyond the pale they've been robbed leonor for the most part we give very little credence to the artist or to the notion of the artist and that sort of thing is childish it doesn't you know all this kind of stuff and those turn to those in fact that those may be the major element those may be the major things that the humanity is going to because cern to it rather then the investment banking to context within which all of our institutions are set up now yeah i mean it might be the goods of civilization creative goods of civilization are going to be what we're going to be able to be free to be concerned with rather than having to do it only as an afterthought or some little crumb that could be thrown do you understand what i'm saying that could be part of a context for which the whole society planet terribly is moving perhaps well yeah what what the psychiatric priesthood in the psychological priesthood regards as mental sickness yeah and when they say med they re appropriat  a psychologist working in a clinic one of my paid quote unquote patients was supposedly schizophrenia and he told me by the way i told him at the time though that there was nothing wrong the clinic for telling me i wasn't schizo friend i could really and he became very successful then john steenland ten years later i was already i was only there for a few months but just giving just being in a position of authority into this were all there been moments in in the history of human humanity in which the kingdom of heaven seems to be breaking in and these are times of  up to buy two rows of people sitting down and then shooting each other dead in a military thing and these people are living out what they were in the so called insane asylum and they were the same one yeah yeah it's  in the last fifty years this is in sixty seven and hasn't gotten better yeah no no now they're suing you normal people are now destroying the planet and they've got a capacity for the whole species yeah so now what what i'm normal before i even went into the seventy's when i was in college i am the mother of the new messianic age now i believe these people you know these people who think that they're called upon to bring about the world i mean a view of reality that is not adequate to what the future requires much less a liberated future that maybe the promise of the time which we find ourselves when we have weapons systems we're now unlike the nd world war we can wipe out our entire species by unleashing the existential you've got to meet liberation may actually be in the cards in terms of the evolution of consciousness in this part of the liver this part of the universe in a way that is a little has to start with a group of people who are willing to to do what jesus said seek ye st the kingdom of heaven all right yeah in order to do that you have to believe the kingdom of heaven is possible yes that's right he's people that we call and i say this is a like say now yeah so you may be the voice and i want to encourage you in thinking that and i'm now talking to you is my psychologist but i'm talking to you as a friend ology already lang said in one place we want to lock up those people want to base naked under the moon yeah right it's a waste their time with things like poetry or something when everybody knows the only reason you're here is to labor away in order to get a little money so you can buy bread by the people who own all the assets and you live in this prison right it's an imprisoned sate that we live in liar and i also who was an economist i think that's the way economics in comics field or the other fields other than psychiatry isn't all there is a cop out and sycophant to the people the few people who control everything just like the kings of old or the emperors and who have their whole their whole authority figures the whole value is just more of all practical survival yeah i mean the masses survive and be the ones at the top want money and power because they have no idea that it's possible to realize they don't want profoundly religious people ok the split between religion and secular revolutionary activity didn't happen until the th century the great reformers of the the great radicals of the th century robert abzug which is a great book i can't think of the title of it right now recent the book is about ten years old ok but you also wrote a book on theater welder another one of the great environment norm of the normally accept notions of what we call quote unquote reality what causes a period of breakthrough as you call it to where it has real sociological political economic meaning you know interestingly what what what what causes that it was two thousand years ago came jesus five hundred years ago or five hundred years before that and so what and then you fuller had these kind of things and then you get to the point where the political reality against which your or the economic reality everything is economic reality is being transformed and when we get to a point where we've been hitting  over the head we've had thirty figures in the emperors the roman the kings and so forth in the search for a wall around in the mud and we were also limited in our technological capability so the technology extended consciousness isn't  and it gives a capability to make the environment different than in the needle like sense is given and we've now reached the point apparently i've been going to iraq and so for the reason that i was admiral iraq you know i had people measure let's say the destructive capability of our weapons systems and they apparently they are now without a question and that's what i get back i mean it should be put out to everybody so we understand it clearly that the weapons systems not only research that would be occurring in the in yang universe where you have it would have to be yeah exactly you know i'm asking you i'm asking you what in the in the technological reality and the commitment to realizing the kingdom of god on earth that's suggestion of what constitutes the results of this technologically induced new situation in terms of the spirit there's i is that we have actually as a species with an evolutionary cont transcended in the we have a capability to destroy the species we didn't have right right so on the other side in the living room we have transcended in this getting back into so called reality terms we've transcended material scarcity as an ontological reality for the operation of this planet and the people there is no reason why people have to have and all of our systems are formulated within that and that's the hard core kind of stuff they're arguing about down in washing mr paulson and so forth because the economic assumptions which are so prevalent prevalent in setting the templates for everybody all of our systems are unique terry and you know all of them they're all authoritarian and that we may be having and liberation that is it handed is something that is and as james joyce in history is a nightmare from which you are attempting to awaken it may be actually time for there to be an awakening to a new relationship we need through the cosmos yes exactly understand yeah consensus of what is reality don't call back to adjusting to that reality in the new reality and what david said to me and others there to be true said i still have those experiences there are psychotic yeah but developed in me so i spoke i entitled my speech the challenge of cosmic optimism now it's hard to be optimistic it's so terrible but we still have to be easier to be optimistic but at any rate own willingness to unless the conscious mind in the process of change as a result of its attempt to banish the supernatural from its borders as a result of its failure to the realize that the new order that is seeking to come into existence is